Hey guys,
heard about H77 in PAL that Optoma said, they all have to come back to factory because some PAL problems

Best
Armin

Originally posted by tubby
Hey Markeetaux,
Are you seeing any of this smearing stuff like DHarp? Is there a big diff using iScan HD? Just curious, if I already have a up converting DVI DVD player, what would be tha main reason for me to get the IScan for the H77?
P.S. How are things back there, I went to TS Wooton as a kid but I left in search of the pefect powder ski run over 20 yrs ago.

I don't know about the Iscan, but you know the H77 has an excellent scaler/deinterlacer for your SD signals. DVI with a Bravo or other type DVD player looks exceptionally good. A great progressive player with the Faroudja chip looks exceptionally good.

Here's some info on the PAL fix which could add a little extra for the H77 NTSC units also.

It's not a hardware fix. A new firmware will add a new user menu option that will be labeled (NDD). This basically will help all the contouring which they found is related to the Dark green and green segments on the color wheel.

Still my machine doesn't show any contour problem but I was told the feature is still useful for other units which may show a little contour, or even as the bulb ages it could be useful. Final firmware s/b out in a couple of weeks.

I won't be getting it but it's nice to know there's a fix for our PAL brothers. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
...It's not a hardware fix. A new firmware will add a new user menu option that will be labeled (NDD). This basically will help all the contouring which they found is related to the Dark green and green segments on the color wheel...

Tom,

Is that the c12 FW that Robert spoke to me about???

Most likely yes, but still not available just yet. Take a screen shot of the U571 clip. Will we see contour like on the PAL shot? If so this firmware would help you.

Sri, I couldn't tell much from the screenshot you posted today, it looked dim and blurry.

The key part of this firmware will be the added menu feature. Someone with C12 will have to look for it. He couldn't tell me which menu, maybe System or Image.

It's not that bad, like the PAL U571 shot, but it's there. I would say somewhere in between yours and the PAL one.

Where you mostly see what I'm talking about is when faces pan across the screen. They turn into a cartoony blobby mess as the pan moves horizontally. It's happened on both units, so I can't imagine it as a coincidence on just the two that I have received. I think you guys need to look closer at things in the background and follow faces and other solid color items during pans.

Maybe it's because you've never owned a CRT, have you??? Maybe this is a DLP thing, but I don't remember seeing it with my old Sharp 12K:confused:

Oh, I just thought of something. I have only tried U-571 on 1080i D-VHS D-Theater. Do you think I should try it on DVD? Is that what yours is from, Tom?

Yes on two type players a Bravo with DVI and a Pany XP30 thru component.

Those PAL shots show some wierd stuff which I don't see on mine. Another shot is the opening of LOTR, the geometric patterns at the start. I didn't see anyting here either. I'll take a screen shot of that tonight.

I have a Bravo D2 w/ DVI I'll try it on. I also have a Panasonic with Faroudja progressive processing I'll try. How's that???

Very good we'll have new reports for tomorrow. :)

great to have more reports on the H77.

My set is totally free of the weird banding effect like the LOTR intro and U571 scene, but the panning leaves much to be desired. So I am wondering if it is a prob with my DVD player (xbox).

As I am just a home user, I do not have many different DVD players to try my H77 on.

Originally posted by alantkh
...My set is totally free of the weird banding effect like the LOTR intro and U571 scene, but the panning leaves much to be desired. So I am wondering if it is a prob with my DVD player (xbox)...

I doubt it. After having two H77s, it is on both of them. I think it's an H77/DLP problem. Hopefully this new c12 FW will help. I can't believe no other calibrator/reviewer has picked up on this.:rolleyes:

Dave:

Please tell us about the reasons for the switch from the Sharp to the Optoma.

Pip

Tubby,
I moved to the DC burbs back in '85, and I was long out of High school
at that time. The skiing here still sucks. I'm originally from Red Sox nation
in central Massachusetts, there the skiing is still pretty good.
I went with the Iscan HD processor because I own a Pioneer Elite DV-07
muti disc player. It holds 300 movies and is 480i. I have zero organizational
skills, so for me it convenient to just look at a list of options. As you know
the Iscan will upscale that 480i to 1280 x 720. It's simply stunning, especially
after help from Guitarman. This is also my first projector.
H77, Iscan, Firehawk and the Red Sox winning the World Series, I'm so damn
happy I can hardly go to the bathroom.
Oh yeah, Negative on the smearing issue. Zero artifacts.
Sounds like your in pretty good shape with your current setup. I'd run with it.
Your going to get a great picture with what you have, I didn't have the same
DVD options as you.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Maybe this is a DLP thing, but I don't remember seeing it with my old Sharp 12K:confused:

Dave, how would you compare the 12k to the H77... With all these display anomalies, I think I might just upgrade my 9k and stick with the sharp line and get a 12k.

The image quality of the 9k is immaculate for dlp. I just want better blacks, contract, and brightness... but not at the trade-off of blurry pans or banding/contouring with any format (pal, ntsc, interlaced, or progressive).

Brad

Originally posted by Pip
Dave:

Please tell us about the reasons for the switch from the Sharp to the Optoma.

Pip

Pip,

I actually went from the Sharp to the Sony G90 CRT first. I got a great deal on the G90, so I jumped on it. Then my medical situation went down hill fast and my HT business dropped off. I needed the money, so I decided to sell the G90, get another DLP, make a little cash from the exchange, and hoped to be happy enough with the DLP instead of the awesome 9" Sony G90 CRT. So far there's a lot to be happy about, except for these little anoying problems of course.

If money was no object now, I would still without a doubt choose the G90. Best pix I've ever had in my HT demo room:)!!! That's saying a lot considering I've had a T A W HD800, a Barco BG800 and 1208/2, and a tricked out Marquee 9500LC come through there, as well as a few others like the T A W Stealth and the Sharp 12K DLPs.

Now I guess I'm considering the Marantz VP-12S3 if this doesn't pan out, or I also have a Sony G70 CRT at my disposal.

I hope this all works itself out soon. I don't have the energy for this anymore:(!!!

Originally posted by DHarp193
Where you mostly see what I'm talking about is when faces pan across the screen. They turn into a cartoony blobby mess as the pan moves horizontally. It's happened on both units, so I can't imagine it as a coincidence on just the two that I have received. I think you guys need to look closer at things in the background and follow faces and other solid color items during pans.

Welp, that seals it for me. I'm not touching a h77 until this panning problem is resolved or I can confirm that Dave is seeing things that are not there :-).

I have seen many DLP machines and what Dave is describing isn't DLP dithering. I guess I'm just going to have to pay the premium for the Sharp 12k. I know it throws a beautiful artifact free picture. Maybe its not as bright, but, I'm not willing to sacrifice quality for brightness.

Brad

Originally posted by bdavidson
Dave, how would you compare the 12k to the H77... With all these display anomalies, I think I might just upgrade my 9k and stick with the sharp line and get a 12k.

The image quality of the 9k is immaculate for dlp. I just want better blacks, contract, and brightness... but not at the trade-off of blurry pans or banding/contouring with any format (pal, ntsc, interlaced, or progressive).

Brad

This problem is probably being caused by the scaler correct?

John

Originally posted by DHarp193
It's not that bad, like the PAL U571 shot, but it's there. I would say somewhere in between yours and the PAL one.

Where you mostly see what I'm talking about is when faces pan across the screen. They turn into a cartoony blobby mess as the pan moves horizontally. It's happened on both units, so I can't imagine it as a coincidence on just the two that I have received. I think you guys need to look closer at things in the background and follow faces and other solid color items during pans.

Maybe it's because you've never owned a CRT, have you??? Maybe this is a DLP thing, but I don't remember seeing it with my old Sharp 12K:confused:

Naah there's nothing wrong with the H77. We had a user earlier Danderoy that saw problems he saw the same problems on the Sharp Z12000. The panning you're talking about is just the technology. I hate to say it buy maybe you should return it to your dealer and pick up another CRT.

Like in your PM your said you see a problem with my U571 shot vs the PAL one. You may have a too critical eye for DLP.

Again here's the picture comparison. Huge difference to my eye.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77u571hr.jpg

Here's a picture of the banding on a unit playing PAL.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/palcontour.jpg


The PAL contouring was a problem, the fix is in and it's all set for Europe.

Ok I took a look at the Monolith opening of LOTR and took a screen shot. My wife who is in digital arts & a marketing director says what I'm seeing in this sequence is just because the clip was rendered digitally. If it was film based it would be smoother. She says it's just the pixelization of the source and there's nothing wrong with the projector.

Mits HC2000 LOTR shot
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/mitsmonolith.jpg

It is good to be critical. Guitarman, sometimes, you are too enthusiastic over the H77 that I am made to believe that you will not say anything bad about H77.

Nothing is perfect. It is good to give both sides of the story. I am pretty happy with my H77 as I do not see any of the horrible contours posted here. (which makes me wonder why I am not hit by this bug as I received a PAL unit)

The panning problem is a minor issue which irritates me but not too much. It will be nice if I can find the cause of it and fix it.

I agree there is no such thing as a perfect picture, but I intend to squeeze every drop of performance out of the H77

Dharp193,
I really hope you can test out the H77 with the other DVD players and give your unbiased opinon.

Li-on put it best. Ti should send out a learning flier on DLP artifacts so these threads don't keep popping up all the time.

We went through the same discussion earlier with Danderoy.

"It is good to be critical. Guitarman, sometimes, you are too enthusiastic over the H77 that I am made to believe that you will not say anything bad about H77."

What can I say. I've viewed the H77 for months -

I see nothing major with the H77, you even like it.

ANyone have discreet on and off IR codes for the H77?

John

Are all you H77 users who are seeing these problems using progressive scan or DVI, or are you using interlaced?

Originally posted by Expletive
This problem is probably being caused by the scaler correct?

John


Usually when you pass the native panels pixels resolution to a fixed pixel projector you can effectively bypass the scaler. Based on what Tom has reported, this also works on the H77. I believe that is what Dave was doing.

DLP dithering is a function of the colorwheel and the way single chip dlp's are designed. Most newer projectors have reduced or removed the dithering by using clear or dark segments in the color wheel.

Brad

Originally posted by guitarman
Naah there's nothing wrong with the H77. We had a user earlier Danderoy that saw problems he saw the same problems on the Sharp Z12000. The panning you're talking about is just the technology. I hate to say it buy maybe you should return it to your dealer and pick up another CRT.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Too many people who have seen other DLP's are pointing out panning or contouring problems with the h77. I would like yo to show me pictures of similar problems in other dlp projectors. If there were there, they would have show up on AVS over the past few years.


Ok I took a look at the Monolith opening of LOTR and took a screen shot. My wife who is in digital arts & a marketing director says what I'm seeing in this sequence is just because the clip was rendered digitally. If it was film based it would be smoother. She says it's just the pixelization of the source and there's nothing wrong with the projector.

Mits HC2000 LOTR shot
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/mitsmonolith.jpg

Interesting that you posted this. I have seen LOTR on my Sharp 9k numerous times and I'm sure the opening title doesn't contour like this picture suggests.

Brad

Brad,
We know about the contouring. The panning is what Danaroy saw also and he saw it on the Z12000 to. The DLP panning is what Dave is talking about. Like I said the contouring has a fix that's out in two weeks. And the fix has to do with the green and dark green segments on the color, so it is color wheel related. All the pictures you've seen are of H77 and Mitsubishi units in PAL land. I only put up one shot a U571 so far from my machine and it's way different.

Dave did you apply the fix yet?

That LOTR is on a PAL Mitsubishi HC2000. That little clip plays differently on my H77. I snapped a shot of it but forgot my camera today.

Brad do you have an H77?

You guys are going to freak out brand new buyers, tubby just laid down his money with AVS. He's probably biting his nails now.

I sure don't remember seeing more " motion artifacts " on your H77 than anything else projector wise that I've seen. If that's what were talking about. Just for the record, I see that same effect on mini dv video to some degree.

I know it looked just like other digital projectors, just like the HT1000. We a/b'ed the projectors for 3hrs. They both did great. I think I'm going to get an ulser. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
What LOTR is on a PAL Mitsubishi HC2000. That little clip plays differently on my H77. I snapped a shot of it but forgot my camera today.

Brad do you have an H77?

Sorry. My mistake. The way I read you message, I thought that was a picture of your non PAL h77.

And no, I don't have an H77. I'm trying to decide if I want to upgrade my 9k to a h77 or a 12k. As for the H77, I really only have you to go by. Most of the other reviews are much more subdue than yours. Its extremely difficult to take your review which has no complaints or criticism, a few others that are really like the projector , and then even more who are having either contouring, panning, syncing. Add on top of that, Dave's, who is a calibrator suggesting there are problems with the picture he doesn't recall seeing in other DLP's.

Its a big investment, and if people get it wrong they have lost a pretty penny. I don't want to order one, find the same problems that others are having that you may be overlooking, then have to eat a restocking fee.

You do understand, that when it sound too good to be true... it usually is. So far, there are no professional reviews on the H77. And the few industry people who have reviewed it, so have the same level of glowing praise that you do.

Thats all. No hidden agenda. I just want the best replacement for the 9k and a projector that will last me another three years. If I see one and any artifacts are the same or less noticeable than my 9k, Ill gladly drop the cash. I have already discussed the purchase with Jason.

Brad

Craig,

I see bad contouring on interlaced s-video connection. The panning over the s-video interlaced is also much worse than the xbox progressive out.

no contouring effect on xbox progressive component connection but the panning has some minor issue.

actually,

I agree with guitarman on this point. I don't really think there is anything major wrong with my unit. I was quite worried (for nothing) over the contour issue which did not appear at my PAL unit at all. The picture of the H77 is very nice even on my white wall :) it is super quiet, definately worth an audition to anyone who is looking for a HD2+ projector.

Actually,
not that many complains over the panning/smearing issue. Most complains is about contouring which occurs with a white light on a dark background or during pans. I noticed the contouring during pans when i watched the DVE intro scene on interlaced s-video. But it is not there with xbox progressive component.

I have posted the LOTR shot from my H77 here
http://pisduck.com/h77/a.jpg

This shot is UNEDITED from my camera so notice the red dots due to hot pixels. It is hard to take a good picture in the dark but as you can see there is no contouring.

I am not sure what source Dave is using. Even if he passes in 720P, the problem can still be in the scaler he is using at the source. The whole idea is to test it with a couple of different 720P inputs, prefably one with a dedicated scaler like ISCAN. Or at least an good DVDP like denon 3910.

Here's a recent review.

http://www.laaudiofile.com/h77.html

If you're happy and feel good about the Sharp line you should continue with it. I can have complaints, guess you never heard me on my Z9000, I kept it two weeks and offed it at Ebay. Too dim for me, not enough contrast. Maybe I had a bad one. The 12000 looked good to me but it was dim also. The screen was too big so I didn't really get a good look.

Right you need time with a projector.

Alan that LOTR shot sure looks good. But you need to get another progressive player. :) Jason over at the Opto H30 thread (thegamepimp) says the Xbox is aweful to use as a progressive player. Where's your Denon 3910? :)

Not biting my nails yet, I'll let you know in about a week. I'm not worried. During my evaluations I saw all the HD2+ PJs available and guess what, they all looked great. I really thought any of them were far clearer than RPTV or mabey even plasma. The demo of the H77 I saw w/ my u571 disk on a integra dvd player in a semi lit room was completely beautiful. Looked every bit as fine as the Sharp 12k but was even brighter.

Just adding my voice in support of the H77. I have a very early model with C08 June firmware. It looks great and has been a joy since the moment I turned it on. The colors are great, the picture is sharp, etc.

Each time I think I see some worrisome artifact on a DVD (my only current source), I take the disc down to my computer and play the same scene on my 1600x1200 21" LCD monitor. In each case, the artifact has been in the source material and looks just the same on my LCD as on the H77. So far, this has included lots of grain in "Winged Migration", really bad banding/contouring in "In The Cut", and a few others.

There may well be some problems in PAL land, and there may even be a few units with problems in NTSC land, but in general, this projector is just great.

Here is a relevant annecdote. A friend of mine has a very expensive and serious media room that includes a Marantz 12s2. He came to look at my very modest set up and concluded that the H77, even with my far lower quality screen, had a better picture.

For those thinking of the H77 or in the process of buying one, don't fret, this is a good projector. As Tom and others have said, just be sure you understand the limits of DLP technology because as wonderful as the H77 is, it cannot exceed these limits.

Ira

Originally posted by NiToNi
From what I´ve seen of the H77 (an NTSC production unit & a PAL pre-production unit) the motion smearing is severe and I´m perplexed by the fact that some people don´t see this.

Anyway, I have short PAL clip that shows this very well. Could someone help me host and share this VOB file, which is 12 Mb in size, so everyone with a H77, particularly those in NTSC land, can see this for themselves? ;) Well ignorance is bliss as they say but... if you find a place to host it, I'd like to see it so I know what to look for. My H77 seems OK except sometimes when panning, the background (anything that's moving in the pan) seem blurry. I figure that was normal and part of going to a big screen (my first). I'm still happy with it since I don't know better :) (so far)

The vob share is a good idea - not only does it give other H77 owners a chance to try it (at their own risk, lol), but other DLP owners too. I'll try it on my HTPC/HT1000 set-up and let you know what it's like as a comparison.

Gary.

Originally posted by scotthorton
...My H77 seems OK except sometimes when panning, the background (anything that's moving in the pan) seem blurry. I figure that was normal and part of going to a big screen (my first). I'm still happy with it since I don't know better :) (so far)

Well, that's not normal Scott. If you would watch the same scene on a CRT or a 3 chip D-ILA you would not see that. Sure it would get a little blurrier because of the motion and also when filmed, the stuff in the background isn't what the cameraman focused on, but it shouldn't turn into a blob of smeared color with dark outlines!!! This is HD video, not a children's water color art book for Christ's sake:mad:!!! Ask Joe Kane what HD is supposed to look like, because it's not like this. Also ask Tom Strade from Immersive, Inc. why he decided not to use the H77 as an OEM chassis for his DLP.

I'm glad at least NiToNi saw this, jeesh. If this projector is your first big screen, you have nothing to compare it to.

I'm going to play that HD scene back on my professional Mitsubishi MegaView Monitor. If the panning issue isn't there, then there's no doubt that it's the H77.

Tom,

Yes, I upgraded the FW to c12 and it was the same, but I didn't see that "NDD" setting you talked about, maybe that's forthcoming? I have no doubt it can probably be fixed w/ FW, but it ain't there yet.

All other things considered though, if this panning/contouring/banding issue is fixed, this is definitely the best one chipper DLP so far for the money. Very good colors (except the green on mine is about 5% low when using Avia's color decoder check pattern) and the best blacks I have seen yet.

Here's a good discussion on what you're seeing with a DLP projector and even a Sony SXRD.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=463476

The added firmware for contour may be useful across the board.

Euro Mits HC2000
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/mitsmonolith.jpg

My H77
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77monolith.jpg

You can see a faint contour in my shot, but really this is no big deal. This particular clip is rendered by the artist digitally. My wife who works with graphics says it's just the way digital pixelation will act. If it were a film shot it would be smoother. You can see my PJ is way better than what they get in Europe. So the firmware will clear it up a little and probably even clear my picture some. But since this one clip is digital anyway I doubt it will look like film ever.

The panning thing, that's something else and inherent in many PJ's. Again not deal breaker for me. But you have the right to be bothered by it and if so you may have to go with CRT again.

Same thing happened to Dandaroy earlier, he was fine at first, then noticed panning. He got a refund. Then went out and looked at a Sharp Z12000 and saw the same thing. He had a Benq also and that went back.

Tom,

I don't believe they're talking about the same thing I'm talking about. You would not and I did not see any of this on my G90 CRT as they mention. I think they are talking about smearing like what you can see in pans trailing the subject, not the subject/color itself. Am I reading it wrong???

I think the Dark started the thread from what he was reading here. Dandaroy described it like you. He said it was on certain pannying that there was a ghost, blurry smear. Same thing on the Z12000.

I'm not talking about a "ghost, blurry smear". The blur I'm talking about is in the subject itself, like a face, leg, etc. as it pans across. All the detail in the face melts away into a blob of cartoony color with hard banded edges.

I never see what you talking about, I don't' think I want to. :)

I thought we were talking about panning problems. The color blobs sounds like it might be related to the contour thing. Which I saw in allot of the pictures the Euro guys posted. Like a blurry color patch of a subject in the background. If that's it you are in luck so hold on for the firmware.

Saturday and it's slow at the Cigar Shop so I can talk with you all day. :)

This shot of yours, why is it so blurry? Did you take it while it was moving? That blur of red on the left is what you're talking about I think. Looks like color bleed and I don't see this with mine.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77banding1.jpg

That's exactly what it looks like because it's panning left. His face is normally blurred because of the pan, as seen on my Megaview CRT monitor, but on the H77 it turns into a cartoony blur. I'm not much of a screenshot guy, I'll try some other scenes if I can record them. This is FAR from the only place I've seen it.

I'll check some of the football I have recorded too.

I sure hope you get a fix. Because yesterday we watched Pirates of the Caribbean and Dawn of the Dead, this morning I watched Planet of the Apes (Charlton Heston). All these movies looked super on my setup. No smearing.

Tom, remember I'm watching and seeing it with HD, not DVD. I have done some more checking w/ football HD. It almost seems like a latency problem or the H77 not being able to keep up with the image's frame speed:confused:

I took some pix and I'm checking them now.

Here are some more pix, but I don't think it shows up as much in still pictures because there's no motion of course and that's where I have the problem.

Look at the referee shot, there's some contouring there as the camera panned by as well as the guy to the right of him.

It was VERY bad as the pan went by on the face of Freddie "Fourth and 26" Mitchell in the next shot, but it doesn't really show up in this still pix.

The best shot yet of this is of the guy's face behind the Cleveland Brown's player #86, just left of his name on his jersey. Now magnify that about 10 times as the camera pans by, turning his face into a mushy, flesh colored blur with hard contoured edges.

I hope these help.

Here's Freddie Mitchell........

And the worst of all..........(All their faces are actually doing it, just not caught on this still, as I mentioned earlier).

Originally posted by DHarp193
And the worst of all..........(All their faces are actually doing it, just not caught on this still, as I mentioned earlier).

ohhh thats just nasty.

The referee shot is the best one, you see red contour lines in the faces. I don't see heavy contour on my machine. Lets hope the firmware helps out your H77.

Everyone should be watching horse racing on NBC right now. One Big 2 minute pan. :-)

Looks great on my Sharp 9k DLP. Better than on my Toshiba CRT.

Brad

I'm sure the race will look better on my H77. :)

Tom,

I´m starting to think Optoma sold you one of those Golden Samples they calibrate and optimize to oblivion before they send them out to HT mags to review. Or maybe they just gave you one for marketing purposes... ;)

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom, remember I'm watching and seeing it with HD, not DVD. I have done some more checking w/ football HD. It almost seems like a latency problem or the H77 not being able to keep up with the image's frame speed:confused:

I took some pix and I'm checking them now.

If this is the case can we asume its a problem with its scaler ? so using a external scaler to
reduce it to 1280x720 will fix it ? Should be a great to confirm where the problem is.

Daniel.

Nito, I didn't download your items sri. I have this thing with downloads fouling up my computer so I refrain.

Not sure what you got? Is it a machine in Europe? If so wait for the frimware.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom, remember I'm watching and seeing it with HD, not DVD. I have done some more checking w/ football HD. It almost seems like a latency problem or the H77 not being able to keep up with the image's frame speed:confused:

I took some pix and I'm checking them now.

All this is with Tivo. Can you set the Tivo to 1280X720p? How's it going with a direct feed OTA or a HD-VHS player maybe.

Also how about a DVI DVD player at 720p?

Because here with HD over OTA or Comcast is where the projector really shines.

If you can't wait to try the firmware or if you're running out of time with your grace period, you'd better get the PJ back to the dealer. $$$

" Craig,

I see bad contouring on interlaced s-video connection. The panning over the s-video interlaced is also much worse than the xbox progressive out. " -

I don't know about the other problems people are mentioning, but using interlaced S - video would have to be the worse picture imaginable ( other than composite which is unthinkable !)!!

Note this artifact has nothing to do with contouring or banding. DHarp193 described it best - cartoonish or clay-looking faces.

Another thing to try: Display a smooth gradual grayscale. It bands, doesn't it, like it wasn't working with 10 bits internally.

Let's just hope a firmware update will fix this...

Originally posted by DHarp193
And the worst of all..........(All their faces are actually doing it, just not caught on this still, as I mentioned earlier). Bummer. This shot shows the "blur" I mentioned see on my H77 all the time. So this is not normal for a big screen I take it. grrrr.

Originally posted by NiToNi Note this artifact has nothing to do with contouring or banding. DHarp193 described it best - cartoonish or clay-looking faces.I have exactly the same problem with my Mitsubishi HC2000 (PAL unit). Otherwise everything looks good, but horizontal panning = blurry mess, especially with faces. Very annoying. I really hope they can fix this soon.

BTW: I also tested problematic scenes with Mitsubishi's new HC900. It was OK, so I don't think this is a DLP-related problem.

Is this problem not the same as the one that the PAL units have been delayed for then? Don't tell me we've waited all this time here in PAL land and when they arrive there's still going to be a problem with them! The Sony HS50 is looking more tempting every day...

Cheers,
Andy.

Originally posted by zAndy12
Is this problem not the same as the one that the PAL units have been delayed for then? Don't tell me we've waited all this time here in PAL land and when they arrive there's still going to be a problem with them! The Sony HS50 is looking more tempting every day...

Cheers,
Andy.


No projector in this price range (if any ?) is perfect.

I think indeed there are 2 different problems :

1) pal contouring and tearing (also on some ntsc) this seems fixed with the first 'real' PAL units to arrive week 45.

2) a problem when inputting 1080i signals mostly resulting in some smearing. I am guessing this is the scaler and needs a different fix if its possible. It might just be the scaler and only way to fix
it to bypass the scaler inside and use a external scaler.

Again just guessing but the comments on not having problems with dvd as input but having problems with 1080i makes me think this (it has to 1080i->1080p then scale 1080p -> 1280p.

Daniel.

lol, I haven't see anything yet. Veiwed a couple of HD shows last night. Wacthing ESPN HD now and so far all the clips look fine. Plan to watch 4 games in HD, I'll keep looking. :)

I have a feeling allot of the problems people are seeing are related to the known contouring. No contouring here for me. Wow they just played a clip of the exact shot that Dave posted first. Looked hard for trouble and couldn't see anything. sri

Originally posted by guitarman
lol, I haven't see anything yet. Veiwed a couple of HD shows last night. Wacthing ESPN HD now and so far all the clips look fine. Plan to watch 4 games in HD, I'll keep looking. :)

I have a feeling allot of the problems people are seeing are related to the known contouring. No contouring here for me. Wow they just played a clip of the exact shot that Dave posted first. Looked hard for trouble and couldn't see anything. sri

Sounds like you do have a magic h77 :-) If only everyone else did :-(

Brad

No need to exaggerate it Brad. With Dave it could just be source related since both his setups have the same problem.

You'll see most of the people talking are located in Europe. No use talking about the heavy contour problem here.We just don't have it.

Originally posted by NiToNi
Tom,

You only need to download the ISO file and burn it. There is no way it could screw up your computer at all. It would be informative if you had a look at it since you seem to be the only one not having a problem with this.

Note this artifact has nothing to do with contouring or banding. DHarp193 described it best - cartoonish or clay-looking faces.

Another problem with the H77: Display a smooth gradual grayscale and watch the banding, like it wasn't working with 10 bits internally...

As I said before, my experience is with both an NTSC and a PAL unit. Furthermore, I am not so positive a firmware update will fix this...

Sri I don't hv a DVD burner. I wish folks would put there location in there name title so we know who we're dealing with. If you're in Europe and you get any machine you be seeing contourning. There never was a NSTC vs PAL version. It's just the sources over there in Europe that at causing the heavy contouring with the machines. Hang on for the firmware fix.

Well, with all the talk of smearing or other artifacts during scenes with panning, of course I have been looking for it more closely. I think I have started to see it. I have been watching DVDs with a Denon 2910 player set to up convert to 1280x720p over DVI. I use Native mode on the H77.

On some scenes whent most or all of the elements in a picture move in any direction, horizontally, vertically, or diagonally, I do see smearing. It looks as though the picture is being shown in a lower resolution (i.e., fewer pixels, so the image has a blocky look) with fewer colors (so contouring or banding appears as there are not enough colors or gray levels). The effect goes away as soon as the motion stops. Also, the effect does not occur when just a few things in the frame are moving. Thus, for example, a character running across the screen with a static background does not produce this effect.

I am guessing that the image processing engine in the H77 (not the scaler) just can't keep up when there is a huge amount of motion in an image and it therefore falls back to lower image resolution and color depth to continue updating the screen. This is better than having sections of the screen not update at all. This is not a scaler issue since I am feeding an image that needs no scaling (or if this is scaler related, it cannot be avoided as I am feeding a native signal and using Native mode).

Now at least for me, this problem is quite minor. I have been looking very hard for the effect and have managed to see it a little bit. However, even when it happens (at least with the DVDs I have been watching), it is not much of a problem for me. Among other things, the image is moving so fast that I have to concentrate very hard on a face or some other object with lots of detail and color gradations before I can even see the effect. Thus, even if Optoma cannot fix the problem, I'm still quite happy with my H77 and will be keeping it for many years. On the other hand, I do plan to take my H77 back to Optoma for a firmware upgrade once the updates settle down a bit and for calibration and cleaning. At that time, I will mention this to Optoma and see if there is any fix.

Bottom line, I do believe this effect exists generally, not just on the PAL machines (sorry Tom), but I also think it is very minor and not a problem that should discourage anyone from purchasing and enjoying the H77 (unless you have a particular sensitivity to this effect). I think most folks won't be sensitive to this as it took me a long time to notice and I am usually very sensitive to artifacts and none of the other folks who have seen my set up have mentioned it.

Ira

NITONI,

Have had My H77, for about a month. Have played numerous DVD'S, D THEATER (JVC) HI DEF TAPES, VOOM HI DEF programs, and i can say that this projector, is one of the cleanest, most artifact free of any projector I have ever owned, ( to many to list, but most major single chip dlp, CRT;s. and one 3 chip DLP.

CHEERS, TOM

I've had many DLP's also and see nothing but an unbelievably great picture.

I'm not going to talk about blurs or contours anymore because I see no problems and can't help other than the info I just got on the contour.

Dave, Scott, Ira? this is your first DLP projector is it not? If so maybe you could get info on a search of DLP dithering/artifacts/effects.

How are you guys hard wiring these units into the ceiling? Are you putting in a new box at the PJ? and plugging in or do you cut the cord and splice into a new ceiling electrical box? Either way where do you put the surge protector?

Originally posted by iblumberg


I am guessing that the image processing engine in the H77 (not the scaler) just can't keep up when there is a huge amount of motion in an image and it therefore falls back to lower image resolution and color depth to continue updating the screen. This is better than having sections of the screen not update at all. This is not a scaler issue since I am feeding an image that needs no scaling (or if this is scaler related, it cannot be avoided as I am feeding a native signal and using Native mode).


Let me say even with this info i still have a PAL unit on order for myself since it seems to be the best
value at the moment but i do find this interesting atleast from techn. point of view. I sort of excluded the image engine since i didn't see how moving more of the screen results in more work for the engine, also i figured these are allways TI build and come with the dmd am i wrong in this guess ?.

Can someone explain how having more movement results in more work ? I allways figured each mirror was happy hopping away for upto 4000+ times a second and each had to be controlled all the time the same amount even if the picture is the same.

Maybe the extra green segment has something todo with it since it resolves more color details are we are seeing for the first time that the engine can't handle the loud and this was not visible on 6 or even 7 segment projectors?

Greetings,

Daniel.

Dharp193,

so is the problem just limited to HD? Do you see it on DVD? How is the quality of your DVD playback? For my case, there won't be HD broadcast anytime soon so I don't really care how my H77 handle 1080i.

Originally posted by iblumberg
On some scenes whent most or all of the elements in a picture move in any direction, horizontally, vertically, or diagonally, I do see smearing. It looks as though the picture is being shown in a lower resolution (i.e., fewer pixels, so the image has a blocky look) with fewer colors (so contouring or banding appears as there are not enough colors or gray levels). The effect goes away as soon as the motion stops. Also, the effect does not occur when just a few things in the frame are moving. Thus, for example, a character running across the screen with a static background does not produce this effect.

You sure this isnt just motion blur thats part of the film itself? Sitting too close to the screen or jsut seeing on a large screen for the first time may make it omre obvious than its been previous.

Just an idea...

John

Originally posted by Expletive
You sure this isnt just motion blur thats part of the film itself? Sitting too close to the screen or jsut seeing on a large screen for the first time may make it omre obvious than its been previous.

Just an idea...

John

A fair question. I have checked this and all other artifacts on my PC with a 1600x1200 21" LCD monitor. This smear is the first artifact that I don't see on the LCD, but I do see on the H77. Thus, it does not seem to be motion blur or some other source induced effect. As I said, I think the effect is very minor, but it is there on my unit.

On the other hand, for contouring with static images, each time I see it, it does appear to be in the source as well (although sometimes it is more subtle on the LCD than on the H77).

In any case, I am still very pleased with my H77, so whether this smearing artifact is real or imagined, in the source material or actually some quirk of either DLP or just of the H77, I'm not concerned, I'm just enjoying watching lots and lots of DVDs.

Ira

lets consolidate all the H77 users experience as I am having difficulty sorting out all these review. Can you guys post what source/connection you are using?

Please note that major/minor is based on the user's impressions and how much the problem bother them.

Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with ??? input

you guys can update this short writeup with your own comments so we can find all the users feedback, their H77 version, and the source they are using easily

Originally posted by alantkh
lets consolidate all the H77 users experience as I am having difficulty sorting out all these review. Can you guys post what source/connection you are using?

Please note that major/minor is based on the user's impressions and how much the problem bother them.

Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with ??? input

you guys can update this short writeup with your own comments so we can find all the users feedback, their H77 version, and the source they are using easily

Added to my data above the following projector data: NTSC, firmware C08 June.

Originally posted by Expletive
You sure this isnt just motion blur thats part of the film itself? Sitting too close to the screen or jsut seeing on a large screen for the first time may make it omre obvious than its been previous.

Just an idea...

John

All it is is a very large image with movie pans or video pans. Panning camera moves can look a little blurry at times on DLP machines (DLP dither/motion). I tried my other projector today and things look the same. For me this motion looked the same for the many DLP's I've had. I never key hard and view into it, I just admire the video/contrast and overall smooth picture quality. I really don't want to keep talking about this (DLP dithering/motion/artifacts,etc) Lol :) Nature of the beast/material.

The color countouring waves etc is a real problem though.

Tom, I agreed with you on the dithering. When I bought the projector, I know what I am getting into and dithering is the artifact I know all along which I ok with, but the countouring problem is something new.

Actually, Li On came over to my place on Sat with a Mitshibishi HC900 which do not have the countouring issue. We compare the same scene on both projector. The dithering effect is less on the HC900. Li On agreed that the "countouring waves" looks pretty bad on the HC2000. So, we tried to fix it. - I went into the service manual by using the code provided by Jello/Pixel. I increase the CWI from 31 (factory setting) to 36 while looking at the U571 dark screen posted here. Got out of the service manaul. It looks better, but still not as good as HC900. So, we tweak the ffdshow (I use a HTPC) and disable everything in Picture Properties other than a slight gain of color saturation. in the end, I would say the problem is mostly fixed. I would still love to see the firmware upgrade, but it does not concern me too much now. :)

Originally posted by alantkh
...Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input...

Let me be TOTALLY CLEAR ON THIS:

It is NOT just 1080i that I see this "motion blur" and loss of detail...i.e. blobbing. As a matter of fact, it actually sort of clears up a little when I use 1080i as compared to 720P. The football clips are from the Eagles/Browns game on Oct 24th broadcast on FOX in 720P HD (not 1080i), so I have no idea how Tom says he saw the exact same clip yesterday:confused:

Can everyone please get over the fact that it is NOT source related (I have noticed it can be source exagerrated, i.e. - 1080i vs 720P).

Let me say this again:

I am a video installer/calibrator and helped design many of the T A W products.

I have owned, calibrated, installed, and setup many other DLP projectors.

I have had the EXACT SAME sources on my Sony G90 CRT and have never seen these artifacts. My sources are: Comcast Motorola 6208, Bravo D2, Samsung SIR-T165, JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS, Bell ExpressVu 6000.

This problem was first noticed on 720P HD and yes, my Bravo D2 is and always was set to 720P except when I tried 1080i to see if that would help...it didn't.

An engineer and owner of a well respected company that I know has seen the same thing on the H77 and has thus concluded not to use it as his OEM DLP for one of his products.

Let's just say, I know WHAT to look for, it IS there, and it MUST be fixed before any serious reviews are done by any magazines, especially Widescreen Review or TPV.

If you don't notice it or otherwise just decide it isn't a problem for you, then great and enjoy, but it IS there.

P.S. - Sorry for the late reply, I have been down for the count the last few days with this medical situation. Sorry if I missed anything:(

Originally posted by guitarman
All this is with Tivo.

No, it's not with TiVo. I saw this live on almost all occassions. I use the 6208 to record HD, which I did to try to recreate the problem and get some screen shots.

Dave, return it and move on, I would.

Jay,

I don't think it's going to be that easy, unfortunately:(!!!

Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with ??? input

Originally posted by alantkh
scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with ??? input [/B] Alantkh - good idea to start a list.
My inputs are:
1. Bravo D2 720p, DVI via 30' Vinc DVI cable direct to PJ.
2. Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ.
I see the blurred backgrounds/moving information in pans on both inputs, it appears more pronounced on DVI/D2.

On opening scenes of "Day after Tomorrow" when they are flying over the iceburgs fast, I have to look away from the pic until something comes into the field of view that was more stationary. Blurrs bad there. Reminds me of the feeling I got when watching an impromerly encoded mpeg file with the field order reveresd - just not smooth at all.

But as a disclaimer for anyone reading this thread for decision purposes - I'm no expert on this and have little to reference what I'm seeing. What I see may be the way it's supposed to be. I haven't determined that for sure yet. And overall, I am OK with the picture.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Let me be TOTALLY CLEAR ON THIS:

Amen Brother. Don't fret, Tom's marketing budget should be running out soon. :)

NiToNi
What country are you comming from? I thought I heard that the European versions are more prone to trouble due to the frequency 50Hz? of the power source.

Originally posted by tubby
NiToNi
What country are you comming from? I thought I heard that the European versions are more prone to trouble due to the frequency 50Hz? of the power source.

Again there is no 'real' PAL version yet first batch tuned for PAL will be with us week 45. This from the boss of optoma europe. They shipped a few demo models and a few to uk/france and then halted and regrouped for a 'new' launch in 3 week of november.

Daniel.

Originally posted by bdavidson
Amen Brother. Don't fret, Tom's marketing budget should be running out soon. :)

Right! I still don't like the Z9000 ;)

Hey Scott, I'm watching the opening scene in Day After Tomorrow. It is nauseating and blurry. It's like that on my 30" tube TV. I put the Directors commentary and they rendered it digitally.

Think I'm done testing panning shots. I'm looking at chap 18 of Charlies angels on the tube set and it looks the same as the DLP projectors. Both done with different Faroudja chipped players. This is the Chapter that Dandaroy used earlier and forced him to return his H77.

Sorry Dave I really couldn't find what you looking for. Lets hope the firmware fixes it for you.

Originally posted by guitarman
Hey Scott, I'm watching the opening scene in Day After Tomorrow. It is nauseating and blurry. It's like that on my 30" tube TV. I put the Directors commentary and they rendered it digitally. Thanks Tom, good to know it's supposed to look that way; well you know what I mean.

Nauseating! funny the director at the start thinks it looks pretty clear. It does get sharper at the end when they have more horizontal and vertical edges.

Tom, do I need to bring my HT1000 back over for A / B comparison tests with the fastest panning shots every recorded or what??

Can someone with The H77 and Chief Mount please tell me how many inches the lens (top) is from the ceiling. Thanks.

Originally posted by Craig Peer
Tom, do I need to bring my HT1000 back over for A / B comparison tests with the fastest panning shots every recorded or what??

You could but you know if there was anything different it would hv popped up with all the viewing we did.

tubby, flush mount with a chief puts the center lens 6" down.

So Tom is 6" the most distance down from the ceiling that I can mount my screen?

With all this talk about smearing, how does that square with Evan Powell's review from Projector Central - http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_h77.htm - " Some projectors have such comprehensive onboard deinterlacers these days that there is little or no difference in image quality between interlaced and progressive inputs. Not so on the H77. We gained better image stability and sharpness with progressive scan input, bypassing the internal deinterlacer. The good news however is that using a JVC XV-D723GD DVD player with 480p as a source, the H77 produced an almost perfect floating zone plate pattern that was virtually free of motion artifacts. "

or this review from http://www.laaudiofile.com/h77.html -

" We started out with high definition content from our D-VHS tape collection. Our HD-Net collection includes recordings of War in Afghanistan, Over Ireland and Bikini Destinations in 1080i played on our JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS VCR. The picture was reference quality on the Optoma H77 with accurate skin tones and excellent color saturation. D-Theater movies were a real treat to watch on this projector. We viewed The Fast and the Furious and Evolution and were very impressed with the shadow detail we saw with the projector. Next we watched X-Men2 also on the D-Theater format, but this time in full DTS 5.1 Digital Surround using our Marantz MV8300 VCR. The sound from these new DTS capable D-Theater tapes are outstanding and really add to the presentation of the high-quality video. Dark scenes with bright lights and defocused backgrounds did reveal some false-contouring under certain conditions, but it was rare and never really distracted us from the overall impressive picture quality on the H77. "

I'm still planning on getting an H77, but this " smearing " issue is just curious to me!

Originally posted by tubby
So Tom is 6" the most distance down from the ceiling that I can mount my screen?

Jay, you'll get another 6" with the lens shift at max. According to ceiling height it's best to use an extension on the chief mount to get the screen down to a better viewing level.

So with the flush mount Chief I could potentially have the top of my screen 6" below the lens after shifting? That would be good because my ceiling is low (6'7") and I would not have to use the extension pole.

What day does the PJ arrive? 6" with the shift, that's about it. The top of the image will be at near 12" down from the ceiling. Viewing wise you'll be ok. Your screen will be a foot lower than mine and it should put your viewing area at about 1/3 up which is where you want it.

Perfecto! Thanks Tom. PJ comes thursday which luck would have it is my day off. I got the new Sony HDMI player waiting here, I'll let you know how it works. Along with the Fisher 800B the previous homeowner left us, he also left a mint condition portable 1950's vintage Da-lite screen It may be glass bead not sure. I'll play with that untill my 92" High Power comes in.

Originally posted by yatlee
Tom, I agreed with you on the dithering. When I bought the projector, I know what I am getting into and dithering is the artifact I know all along which I ok with, but the countouring problem is something new.

Actually, Li On came over to my place on Sat with a Mitshibishi HC900 which do not have the countouring issue. We compare the same scene on both projector. The dithering effect is less on the HC900. Li On agreed that the "countouring waves" looks pretty bad on the HC2000. So, we tried to fix it. - I went into the service manual by using the code provided by Jello/Pixel. I increase the CWI from 31 (factory setting) to 36 while looking at the U571 dark screen posted here. Got out of the service manaul. It looks better, but still not as good as HC900. So, we tweak the ffdshow (I use a HTPC) and disable everything in Picture Properties other than a slight gain of color saturation. in the end, I would say the problem is mostly fixed. I would still love to see the firmware upgrade, but it does not concern me too much now. :)

The contouring which the Engineer Wing tells me is brought on by the new color wheel and it's green and dark green segments. They worked hard in Taiwan to build a firmware to fix it so it's plug and play. :) Nice Deep colorful and bright picture when things are going right though isn't it?
enjoy

Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Nitoni can you tell me the source you are using, ie what DVD player? Basically, I think even if you output using 720p, the image can still be crap because of bad scalers in your source.

No offense to anyone but I think Bravo D2 will not have a good/expensive scaler/deinterlacer inside. I remember someone here is using denon 3910 with H77. I guess those who are really happy with H77 will not be in this thread but rather watching movies...

I agree. The D2 has plenty of quirks I don't like (but it's inexpensive), so I'm trying a 3910 but it will be a few weeks. Dealing with HT receiver and speakers first. Will report how it works when it comes.

Is there a particular DVD scene that would be good to use as a "reference" so we are all comparing apples and apples? I haven't tried yet but if someone has some camera settings that work well, we could all try some screen shots at teh same settings. Tom said his was on auto so that dosen't help. I have a Nikon D70, I'll see if I can get some parameters of a "good" shot from it others could use.

Lately I've tried Night Scene which delays the shutter. Seems to work good, the last Vertical limit shots were done like this.

I think we ought to give up on the DLP motion or motion scenes in general, they have motion. :)

Lets wait for the firmware to clear up all our PAL buddies so they can see images like we have. Then after that they can critique panning scenes. :)

I really don't want to keep talking about this (DLP dithering/motion/artifacts,etc) Lol Nature of the beast/material.

Lets wait for the firmware to clear up all our PAL buddies so they can see images like we have. Then after that they can critique panning scenes.

I agree, almost 60 pages of this thread and at least the last 75% or so not going anywhere.

There is no doubt that in general, Optoma & Mitsubishi have released their latest models without proper consideration for the viewing public.

Let's hope that by the time "Father Christmas" pops down the chimney, some order may appear out of chaos.

P.S. Sorry "Wind" it's too hot in Singapore for good ol' Santa.

I recently set up my home theater and have an H77 and Denon 3910. I too could post some screen shots of reference scenes, provided I have the DVD in my limited collection.

I have not had any problems with HD that I do not believe is traceable to the source. I thought that the coverage of the baseball playoffs and World Series was very inconsistent, but it sure beat the heck out of watching it on my old set.

Scott, what receiver and speakers are you looking at? So far I am very happy with my choice of 56TXi and Paradigms.

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
Scott, what receiver and speakers are you looking at? So far I am very happy with my choice of 56TXi and Paradigms. I have a pair of B&W Nautilus 804's and an HTM2 center. I'm looking for a used or decently priced HTM1 center. I don't have surrounds yet, probably get some B&W 600 series for that. I've tried a Denon 3910, it was OK. A Marantx 5400 with MA700 (200wpc) monoblocks, better. A Denon 2910 through the MA700's, no difference. Finally I tried a B&K AVR507 and I like it a lot. Front display is hard to read is my only gripe. Sounds really nice though and it's extremely configurable which I like. The new one will be the only one I know of that will intregrate the OSD with component and also convert S-video to component. I may get the 5 channel version (AVR505) and save some $$, I don't plan on more than 5.1 channel. Depending on deal I can find, I may forgo the new (series II) as well. Thre is a firmware upgrade you need with a B&K thugh. 2.02 is the latest. Pops on input switching without it. I'm _told_ by B&K the FW fixes it.

Excuse OT, now back to teh screen shots...

Tom:

How are you/are you freezing your screenshots. I took a look at a couple of your pics. Your pic of the girl in the 5th element on the ledge was taken at ISO 200, shutterspeed of .4 (1/2.5) sec, F2.9. .4sec would be right at 2 frames 29.97fps. so are you just getting lucky and hitting a one frame display?

With my D70 I used ISO 200, F3.5, .3s and got the pic attached. My colors don't look anything like yours. My colors suck compared to yours. But they reflec what's on the screen and the way it came out of the box. except for contrast/brightness set using Avia. No color tinkering.

Yours:
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg

Mine:

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
I recently set up my home theater and have an H77 and Denon 3910. I too could post some screen shots of reference scenes, provided I have the DVD in my limited collection.



How is the quality of the DVD playback with 3910? I am probably getting the 3910 soon. Is there smearing problems during pans?

Does anyone know if the DVI input is calibrated to accept Video RGB or PC RGB signals or is it swichable? Apparently my new Sony HDMI player will only work well if the DVI input is set to accept Video RGB levels. Thanks

Originally posted by alantkh
Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Nitoni can you tell me the source you are using, ie what DVD player? Basically, I think even if you output using 720p, the image can still be crap because of bad scalers in your source.

No offense to anyone but I think Bravo D2 will not have a good/expensive scaler/deinterlacer inside. I remember someone here is using denon 3910 with H77. I guess those who are really happy with H77 will not be in this thread but rather watching movies...

alantkh,

Actually, make mine the same as NiToni's, except for the PAL of course;)!!!

All I have to say is, please don't be Ostriches about this and just bury your head in the sand about this issue with the H77. We will all benefit if it's corrected:)

Does anyone know if the DVI input is calibrated to accept Video RGB or PC RGB signals or is it swichable? Apparently my new Sony HDMI player will only work well if the DVI input is set to accept Video RGB levels. Thanks

Jay, I've been trying to find out this exact same thing. Please let me know if you find anything out. Tom, anyway you can bug one of your tech friends over at the factory and get a definitive answer on this :)

-Anthony

alantkh,

I have not noticed smearing as a particular problem with DVDs. If you have a particular scene, say in one of the LOTR DVDs, which have lots of pans, I will check it out.

One issue that I do have is very similar to what Scott posted recently. The default settings on the H77 result in very dark images, particularly when playing DVDs. I am using the HDMI out of the 3910 connected to the H77 DVI input. I adjusted the brightness level to fill in some of the shadow detail, but that results in the bright scenes being washed out. Playing with the gamma setting helped, but I am still not happy with the results. I just ordered the DVE disk to try a little tweaking on my own and would appreciate advice on settings.

Originally posted by scotthorton
Tom:

How are you/are you freezing your screenshots. I took a look at a couple of your pics. Your pic of the girl in the 5th element on the ledge was taken at ISO 200, shutterspeed of .4 (1/2.5) sec, F2.9. .4sec would be right at 2 frames 29.97fps. so are you just getting lucky and hitting a one frame display?

With my D70 I used ISO 200, F3.5, .3s and got the pic attached. My colors don't look anything like yours. My colors suck compared to yours. But they reflec what's on the screen and the way it came out of the box. except for contrast/brightness set using Avia. No color tinkering.

Yours:
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg

Mine:

I freeze the DVD player and then hit the pause button until the clearest frame comes up. With the camera, it's just a 3mega pixel Olympus, I use the auto feature and shutter speed is fast with that. The last pictures I took were in Night mode or slow 2second shutter speed.

As far as adjusting colors take a look at a gray steps pattern in avia. Needle plus steps or Hafl Gray plus steps. First choose the color temp in the image area the best makes the grays look gray and not reddish or blue.
After that keep the pattern up and use the Advanced adjustments to take color if there is any out of the steps of gray.

RGB-contrast to adjust colors in the lighter steps of gray

RGB-brightness to adjust the darker shades of gray.

Use a 50% balance format.

If you see a pink tint in the light gray step. Pull back the red contrast until the pink is gone. Lets say that took 8 clicks. Then use the 50% approach. Change the red/contrast to 4 and add 4 clicks each on the green and blue contrast.

Same technique with the lower end of the grayscale using the RGB-brightness.

Re RGB/DVI, you can run a component to DVI cable from a DVD player to the DVI input. Gives you two component connections if need be.

By the way Scott, post your numbers for your DVD signal. The numbers in the advanced adjustments, color temp, gamma mainly.

Your picture shows a blue bias, when facil tones look a little purple, that's blue marrying the red and forming purple.

I'd start with pulling back blue in the advanced adj,

Here's my adjustments as a reference.

R-contrast minus 3
G-contrast 3
B-contrast minus 11

R-brightness minus 3
G-brightness 3
B-brightness minus 4

You see I had a little of the blues also. :)

Thanks Tom:

I made a nice .xls up for us all to use to post H77 settings. I was finishing it up. Took some tinkering on PJ to figure out what affected what, what was independent, and what was input specific. Still may be missing some combinations/ permutations but I think I got them or most of them.

I'll post my settings (maybe using the spreadhseet) when I get home this evening. I need to build a little spot on my website to start posting H77 related sutff like yours, too.

Any feedback on Optoma getting Smallcombe a PJ to play with/test with his SmartIII color tool?

Cheers,Scott

It's a big maybe on getting Steve an H77, nothing definite yet.

Tom,

How often do you change your H77 settings? Do you change them for varying sources? For different movies?

Looking back at your previous posts I see a variety of numbers.
Today:
R-contrast minus 3
G-contrast 3
B-contrast minus 11

R-brightness minus 3
G-brightness 3
B-brightness minus 4

6 Oct:
Mode Cinema
Contrat 24
Brightness -7
SHarpness 3
Gamma 2

Image
White peak 0
Color temp 2
image mode Film

Advanced adjustment
R-contrast 0
G-contrast 4
B-contrast 4

R-brightness -1
G-brightness -2
B-brightness -6

Are you also making adjustments on the service menu that are not reflected in these values alone?

Thanks for all the useful information that you have been providing.

There are several settings that are input and mode dependent. When I post my spreadhseet later today or tomorrow, it will be clearer I think.

Scott

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
Tom,

How often do you change your H77 settings? Do you change them for varying sources? For different movies?

Looking back at your previous posts I see a variety of numbers.
Today:
R-contrast minus 3
G-contrast 3
B-contrast minus 11

R-brightness minus 3
G-brightness 3
B-brightness minus 4

6 Oct:
Mode Cinema
Contrat 24
Brightness -7
SHarpness 3
Gamma 2

Image
White peak 0
Color temp 2
image mode Film

Advanced adjustment
R-contrast 0
G-contrast 4
B-contrast 4

R-brightness -1
G-brightness -2
B-brightness -6

Are you also making adjustments on the service menu that are not reflected in these values alone?

Thanks for all the useful information that you have been providing.

What it is is I keep trying different DVD players.

Like now I'm using my JVC 723GD and have differnet basic numbers.

Generally once you get the Advanced settings RGB's done you can leave them.

I did have factory set Advanced user RGB numbers. Here's what was set by the factory for progressive DVD.

R contrast minus 3
G contrast 3
B contrast minus 11

R brightness minus3
G brightness 4
B brogithness minus 4

These factory setting go with the factory setting (picture) rgb settings -

Picture
gain red 127
gain green 115
gain blue 110

Bias red 114
Bias green 125
bias blue 100

Do not use the user reset feature in Image until you've written down the service Picture settings.

gotta go be back.

I took the famous contour shot on my Optoma H30 to compare. Pretty close for a very tuff shot. Looks like the H77 has a little better detail in the blacks.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77u571.jpg

SVGA res H30 but not bad. Many similarities
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h30u571contour.jpg

Here's kicker shots, svga lots of SD in white text but at a distance pretty nice but HDTV looks like DVD. :)

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h30vertical2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h30vertical4.jpg
This PJ was calibrated with colorfacts. Once again Optoma color quality stands out.

Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.


I think the "smearing" issue is related at least partially to the source. There is another guy who had an iscan with H77 and was super happy with it.

Originally posted by alantkh
...Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over 1080i HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources...

...NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i...

Like I said, mine looks pretty much exactly as you have written NiToni's, without the PAL of course. The 6208 is doing it at any resolution, as well as all other sources.

I also wouldn't say it's source dependant. Isn't Tom also using a Motorola 62xx??? I have tried running the 6208's firewire out to my JVC 30K DVHS, then out it's YUV outputs with the same result. Also ran the JVC out firewire to a Samsung SIR-T165 HDTV STB to the H77 via DVI, YUV and RGBHV...same results.

Tried the same source material and 6208 on my 33" pro Mitsubishi Megaview CRT monitor...smooth and clean as a whistle.

Anyway there's hope. I spoke to a guy at Optoma today a few times. They say, as Tom does (Thanks Tom:)!!!), that it sounds a lot like the PAL issue in Europe and a new FW from TI is on the way and I should be one of the first to get it. It will have more settings to hopefully rectify this situation.

I'll let you know as soon as I get the chance after downloading it to my H77 how it turns out.

Dharp,

do you have a contouring problem like the PAL units? Like those U571 and LOTR intro scene pics. I know my unit is very different from the PAL contour problem units :)

Originally posted by alantkh
Guitarman- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.


I think the "smearing" issue is related at least partially to the source. There is another guy who had an iscan with H77 and was super happy with it.

I took this from the under 3.5k forum, relates to the 3chip marantz. I think you should change your poll and fix Scott and Ira's report to normal 1chip motion dither.

Here's the quote -----
"We did a ColorFacts first on the Marantz. On the 100" diag 16x9 Stewart GrayHawk wall screen, the 10S1 gives a bright picture even in Low lamp mode and High Bright off. Contrast ratio is decent but a bit weaker than the latest HD2+ such as the Mits HC2000 which is sitting on the floor! Color looks great after the color temp tune. And best of all, no motion dithering which happens on all 1-chip DLP. But there is indeed quite a bit of low level static dithering (dark dancing dots!) which looks worse than those using HD2+ chip."

Also Li-on is right the H77 has little or no low level static dithering. One of the key advantages of the RGB/darkgreen color wheels.

You can leave my poll results as is, very happy with the image quality and no problemo.

Sure hope the contour fix works on Dave's PJ. Next time I call my contact I'll see how it's coming.

Originally posted by alantkh
Dharp,

do you have a contouring problem like the PAL units? Like those U571 and LOTR intro scene pics. I know my unit is very different from the PAL contour problem units :)

alantkh,

I'm not sure, that's what we're checking into. It sure seems like it though. After doing a bunch of tests like the following screen shots, I'm beginning to think a FW upgrade's not going to fix this:eek:

Does anyone with a Bravo D2 and an H77 see this in their Bravo D2 logo?

Originally posted by alantkh
I think the "smearing" issue is related at least partially to the source.

Nonsense. This is a well-known and documented DLP artifact, not typical to the H77 only. But I would guess this machine is more prone to display this artifact with its combo of a 5x spin, 8-segment color wheel since this means there is very little time for the DMD mirrors to modulate the image when each R, G, B and ND segment flashes by, i.e reduced bit depth.

Originally posted by guitarman
...Also Li-on is right the H77 has little or no low level static dithering. One of the key advantages of the RGB/darkgreen color wheels...

...Sure hope the contour fix works on Dave's PJ. Next time I call my contact I'll see how it's coming.

Tom,

I did some tests last night with DVE's 720P D-VHS Tape and found some startling results. I got a LOT of low level dithering, and some high level dithering too. I also decided to change the player's output to 480i, just to see if it's an HD problem and I got tons of noise lines in solid fields and also noticed a band of "digital blocks" across the top of the screen, especially prominant if I raised or lowered the color wheel index (to see if that would help). Check out this scene with the lady and the color chart:

Originally posted by NiToNi
Nonsense. This is a well-known and documented DLP artifact, not typical to the H77 only. But I would guess this machine is more prone to display this artifact with its combo of a 5x spin, 8-segment color wheel since this means there is very little time for the DMD mirrors to modulate the image when each R, G, B and ND segment flashes by, i.e reduced bit depth.

Thanks NiToNi, that makes a lot of sense. I never put those two variables together:rolleyes:

Check this out too:

And this one:

And one more:

I've seen stuff like that on early firmware for other projectors, and with that manufacturer, it was fixed. Hopefully Optoma will cure it.

Gary.

Thanks Gary, at least that gives me some hope. I too have seen some miracles come from new FW. Remember the old T A W Rock Scaler;) I helped with that from the beginning and it became quite a nice piece.

One question remains, if it is just firmware and we all have the same, then why don't others claim to see this:confused:

Could this potentially be a cabling or interference problem? I once had an issue when my iSCAN HD output to my projector came too close to a certain portion of my preamp. Just a wild guess. By the way, I really can't find any of the issues that have been mentioned on my H77. I'm running a DISH 921 HD PVR (via DVI) and DVD (pioneer 47A - 480i) and XBOX, both via component into my iSCAN HD and then output 720p via DVI to the H77. Running the H77 in native mode. I also have a RGBHV output for XBOX 720p and 1080i. All looks wonderful to me.... SJ

I guess anything's possible, and I already checked some of that area to no avail. But if that is the case, why, if I'm using the same sources, did it not show up on my previous projector, a G90 CRT???

Not sure. Maybe others haven't tried the test patterns with it and so aren't aware of it - test patterns tend to show up stuff that isn't always obvious with a movie.

Having said that, Some machines do show excessive posterisation, whereas others (like Toms) seem pretty much free of it.

I also think there's some credance to the 8 segment/insufficient switching time time idea, which might be one reason for this - if each pj is factory calibrated to D65, and some lamps have more red than others, and less green for instance, then less reduction is needed for the green and blue to come down (digitaly) to match the red. This means more DMD modulation range is available and more colour graduation can occur, hence less posterisation.

I remember Guy Kuo mentioning something along those lines with the Hoya FL-Day filter mod for the HT1000 - it gives back some lost DMD modualtion range as well as improved contrast.

The H77 I saw didn't seem to suffer from the posterisation except in the opening mist sequence of Gladiator (Hi Def version), but this was also apparent in a Domino 20 via DVI/HDMI, so it's more likely a DLP artefact than a model issue in that case.

If I can, I'll try to get a look at the H77 again, and at some of those sequences that are cause for concern (U571 - anyone got the chapter number or time for it?), and see if this particular model suffers from it. I'll then try an FL-Day filter on it (it's the only filter I have) and see if that improves it at all. I can't promise anything though.

Gary.

Does anyone know what the total power consumption (in watts including fan) is? Also is the fan A/C or D/C? I'm trying to figure out if the power conditoner I have will work. Thanks.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Does anyone with a Bravo D2 and an H77 see this in their Bravo D2 logo? Dave: I'm pretty sure my D2 does not do this. I will try to wring some time this evening to take a shot of mine. My D2 is direct to PJ on DVI. Is yours?

Thanks Dave, first it looks like dithering, I use gamma 2 and have my brightness at the absolute low by using Avia's all black moving bars pattern. I even delete the on screen H77 menu to make sure I got that darker moving bar at it's lowest.

Here's some test shots I did using the Bravo D1.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77d1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77colorbar.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77overscan.jpg

Some look a little grainy on the computer and from the camera shot, live they're smoother. I walked up to the screen when watching a 4.3 image last night and couldn't see black dithering in the black bars because of the better colorwheel. My other 1chip shows mosquito type dither in these blacks.

Your pictures do show dithering in the color shades & black. Plus on the first DVE picture I see banding lines on a vertical angle. Could be an electrical problem. Do you remember seeing the same on the first H77?

Originally posted by scotthorton
Dave: I'm pretty sure my D2 does not do this. I will try to wring some time this evening to take a shot of mine. My D2 is direct to PJ on DVI. Is yours?

Yes, mine is direct to the pj via DVI.

Dave, also your: dve sconce jpg shows heavy contour. Plus your grayscale needs touch up (too much green in the mids. Look for the DVD pattern with the 4 large blocks of gray and work on taking the green out with the RGB's. Green adds brightness and could add dither also.

There's no hope for fixing that contour without the firmware. Your's is the first USA model I've seen with heavier contour that the PAL users have.

Originally posted by guitarman
Thanks Dave, first it looks like dithering, I use gamma 2 and have my brightness at the absolute low by using Avia's all black moving bars pattern. I even delete the on screen H77 menu to make sure I got that darker moving bar at it's lowest.

I have the same settings and I also mute the menu to allow the best black level calibration..been doing this a while;)

Originally posted by guitarman
Here's some test shots I did using the Bravo D1.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77d1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77colorbar.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77overscan.jpg

Tom, try giving a picture of a grey ramp instead of grey steps. That'll show any banding/contouring between the shades as they gradually go up or down in intensity, as seen in some of my pix.

Originally posted by guitarman
Your pictures do show dithering in the color shades & black. Plus on the first DVE picture I see banding lines on a vertical angle. Could be an electrical problem. Do you remember seeing the same on the first H77?

Can't say as I remember seeing that, but as soon as I saw the motion smear, I immediately called for a replacement so I iddn't have it long enough to go this far into testing since they overnighted the new one.

If it's electrical, it should show up on my CRT monitor also. I'll hook that up to the exact same cables, under my H77, so the only difference is the display device and see what happens.

Originally posted by guitarman
Dave, also your: dve sconce jpg shows heavy contour. Plus your grayscale needs touch up (too much green in the mids. Look for the DVD pattern with the 4 large blocks of gray and work on taking the green out with the RGB's. Green adds brightness and could add dither also.

There's no hope for fixing that contour without the firmware. Your's is the first USA model I've seen with heavier contour that the PAL users have.

Yeah, I saw that green too and thought someone would say something. It isn't actually on the screen, it's from my camera. I saw it as soon as I looked at the pix:rolleyes:.

Yeah, aren't I the lucky one

That contouring is affecting everything I'd guess. The sconce jpg, all the wave shadows around the lights is obvious. Bet if you took the u571 shot you'd hv the same ripple effect around the light.

Can you give me the exact chapter and time of that scene form U571???

Not the number but it's near the end, just after they tell the kid he'll have to swim for the valve so they can blow the destroyer up. :)

Tom,

PM me your address and I´ll send you a DVD with that you-know-which-scene...

Dave,

Your pictures look very similar to what we are seeing on our PAL machines. I wonder if you have a machine which has come from the same batch as the euro ones? (but with US firmware).

Each time we speak to Optoma in the UK we get a slightly different story, but they are currently telling us that our machines will require not only a firmware upgrade but a replacement board in the H77. We have been told that this board replacement is being done on the shipment of 100 machines they have just received....we're hoping this gives us H77s like Toms!

I'm running mine with a Denon 3910 via DVI at 720p native and get the same banding..i.e. not just posterised, but definite bands of darker areas surrounding highlights. I think this rules out it being just a scaler issue as some have said.

I also see the artifact some have noted which looks like a sudden drop in colour bit depth during pans...this is a little different from the usual dlp temporal dithering I've seen before.

Ian Guinan

Hello all...

This is my first post although I've been a lurker for many years!

This great thread reminded me of another a few years ago where I read about a promising new little projector... the NEC LT-150. (Yikes, that's ancient!!) Good image and good price. I bought one as my first HT system from Jason at AVS and have been very happy with it.

This discussion thread prompted me to purchase (today) from Jason an Optoma H77 and a Denon 1910 DVD player. I am very excited to see the change as I haven't been keeping up with the technology as you all have and don't really know what to expect. it was hard to choose a time to upgrade though!

I was wondering what you all thought of my Stewart FS Grayhawk with this projector? It is 98" and in a game room where I can control lighting. I know the gain isn't very high but really didn't want to shell out the $$ for new screen material just now. Many thanks! Curt in Colorado Springs

98" diagonal, the H77 should light it up like a Christmas Tree, even if it is the Grayhawk. Congratulations!

Since my first PJ was an LT150z I can tell you the difference. First you'll notice all you see is a smooth picture and you can view real close. Next where did the fan sound go, then you'll be floored by the contrast, bright whites, deep deep blacks, super rich real colors and HDTV that looks like looking thru a window.

Hows that for an upgrade? :)

I should take more HD shots, here's where you'll be soon.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hd1.jpg

Originally posted by Guinan
Dave,

Your pictures look very similar to what we are seeing on our PAL machines. I wonder if you have a machine which has come from the same batch as the euro ones? (but with US firmware).

Each time we speak to Optoma in the UK we get a slightly different story, but they are currently telling us that our machines will require not only a firmware upgrade but a replacement board in the H77. We have been told that this board replacement is being done on the shipment of 100 machines they have just received....we're hoping this gives us H77s like Toms!

Ian Guinan

Ian,

Which board are they saying needs to be replaced?

Dharp,

you should check the U571 scene. I also forgot where the scene was but is was very close to the end :)

I think you will see the same contouring as the PAL units.

Now I understand why the confusion. There seems to be really 2 different kinds of H77 going around. I sort of did not believe fully Guitarman's pics when I saw such terrible pics from Europe. But later when I received my unit, my U571 shots looks exactly like his.

So I think there may be a good reason why some of us find this smearing problem much less than you, not that we choose to ignore the problem but rather the problem is less on our units.

Yes, but the contouring was never actually my main beef with this unit. I really just noticed that when doing testing with 720P DVE DVHS. It is the smearing and low bit depth during pans that REALLY looks bad and bugs the Hell out of me.

Here is a first shot at a spreadsheet I made for reporting what your setting are. I placed "x"'s in the cells where I know there is unique info. I may spiff it up later but it's decent for now. Let me know if I missed some combination that's not reflected here.

If you have a "good" setup, or your PJ is calibrated, please fill it out and send it to me. I'll combine them all and post a master spreadsheet on a website where we can all see what's workign for everyone. A few stock, out of the box forms might be helpful, too as a baseline, especially to see how the service menu auto cal parameters differ.

Thanks,
Scott

Here are some screen shots that I took tonight from LOTR-TT extended edition.
Setup: H77, Denon 3910 (15' HDMI to DVI cable), 100" Stewart Firehawk

The first one is from a pan shot in chap 13.

This second shot has strong backlighting.

From chapter 16.

Another normal shot for comparison.

As promised for Dave. Here's my Bravo D2 splash screen.

Here's a gray scale, looks OK I think as far as contouring goes.

UPS says mine will be here today! I'll keep you posted.

BTW The first thing I need to check is the DVI to HDMI cable, is the set up pretty easy on the menu?

Also, all you guys with ceiling mounts how did you wire/hide the surge protector?

Also, Tom do you have the chapter # or time for the contour shot of U571?

Originally posted by scotthorton
As promised for Dave. Here's my Bravo D2 splash screen.

Scott,

There seems to be almost the same thing that I see on mine in the upper right corner of your picture. See the diagonal bands??? Yours doesn't appear to be as prominant as mine, but I do see it in yours also.

On your grey ramp in the next posted pix, look for the faint vertical lines between the shades of grey. They aren't supposed to be there, it's supposed to be a smooth gradiation from light>dark and vice-versa, as seen on a CRT monitor. I checked this with my MegaView CRT.

Hugh, in your panning shot, the defect is not going to show up on a picture because it only snaps a still of the image and it's not in motion. The image must be in motion to see the effect.

Originally posted by DHarp193
There seems to be almost the same thing that I see on mine in the upper right corner of your picture. See the diagonal bands??? Yours doesn't appear to be as prominant as mine, but I do see it in yours also.
Yep, mine had it. In person they were clearly evident. If you walk up to the screen I can even see what I would describe as splotches of purplish tint in the area. Could be the D2's artwork I suppose.
On your grey ramp in the next posted pix, look for the faint vertical lines between the shades of grey. They aren't supposed to be there, it's supposed to be a smooth gradiation from light>dark and vice-versa, as seen on a CRT monitor. I checked this with my MegaView CRT. The pic added a little morie that I didn't see with my eyes, and the pic shows a hot spot in the center that I also don't see in person. With the gray scale, it's pretty smooth but the lines of color gradation can be seen if you look close enough. Like it's not quite doing enough shades of gray. But it's close.

Scott

Dave,

Perhaps you are referring to the LOTR pan shot that I posted. The screen shot accurately reflects what I saw. That is the fastest pan shot that I could find. The scene is of course blurred, and perhaps the pixel color depth is diminished because of that, but that is what I am seeing.

The backlit scene is also the worst one that I could find that has anything close to what I have seen here called contouring. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the issue.

Scott,
Thanks for posting the spreadsheet. I will fill mine out when I get a chance and send you my input.

Yep, mine had it. In person they were clearly evident. If you walk up to the screen I can even see what I would describe as splotches of purplish tint in the area. Could be the D2's artwork I suppose.

I don't think it's the D2 making that defect. I have used the D2 for months on my G90 and it never looked like that. I will try it on my MegaView for comparison.

I think the grey screen you use is also making the grey ramp look a little better. I currently use a Stewart Studiotek 130 white screen left over from the G90, so I probably see it a little easier on my white screen.

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
Dave,

Perhaps you are referring to the LOTR pan shot that I posted. The screen shot accurately reflects what I saw. That is the fastest pan shot that I could find. The scene is of course blurred, and perhaps the pixel color depth is diminished because of that, but that is what I am seeing...


Yes, that's the one I referred to. I'll try that scene too, to see if the panning is bad there.

FWIW, mine's on a 110" Firehawk. Also, as for the D2, I'm trading it in for a Denon 3910, ordered today. Probably be late next week before I get it though. I'll see if I can get some more shots for comparison then.

Jay, U571 chapter 18 Trigger's Job. Still looks fine on my H77. Looks good for me, this scene does have mist rolling around the background light.

Maybe were getting a bit off with the microscope testing. :) Some Pj's may show a little contour in tricky shots and a gray ramp can be different on other machines, the NEC HT1000 was noted for handling the grayramp nicely.

Still not saying the heavy Contour like we saw from the PAL shots and Dave's (scounce shot) is ok. That's needs a fix.

Edit; Jay, incase you lost track of what we're looking for

Pal u571 shot
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/palcontour.jpg

60hz shot on my H77
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77u571hr.jpg

You can also see how nicely tuned my H77 is over the PAL unit. All that extra green in his picture could add to the contour also. Wing told me setup adds to the problem also.

Dave, can we see how badly your H77 handles this u571shot?

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
This second shot has strong backlighting.

From chapter 16.

Mine does the same thing.

Originally posted by guitarman
Edit; Jay, incase you lost track of what we're looking for

Pal u571 shot
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/palcontour.jpg

60hz shot on my H77
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77u571hr.jpg

Dave, can we see how badly your H77 handles this u571shot?

Tom,

I did LOTS of testing this morning. Mine looks pretty much the same as yours, not the PAL. There is some contouring in the NTSC also, but it is definitely in the source as I have checked it on both the H77 and Megaview, as well as with DVD and D-VHS on both displays. It is a little less on DVHS, but it's still there.

So it appears, as I have said, the main problem, at least with mine, is the panning smear.

That PAL shot looks like it can be fixed by adjusting the Color Wheel index.

Here's some more tests, gray ramp is pretty good but not as good as the HT1000 from what I remember.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77ramp1.jpg

Grayscale still looks very good. Scot how are you doing on your self taught gray tuning with the Advanced RGB's?

My grays,
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77vsteps.jpg

New leeloo shot taken today using my JVC 723GD, still looking very good.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77ll2.jpg

You know looking at my Gray Steps pattern shot you can see a hint of blue in the high end and hints of red & green in the low end. This really can become a science and with practice you can do anything. Just go over it lightly touching the spots you need. Final result should show and excellent picture. This is the best we can do without Colorfacts or Smart III.

Still working on getting Steve S a H77 so he can add the H77 to his Smart III list.

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
This second shot has strong backlighting.

From chapter 16.

Hugh, you to could use a little help with some grayscale tuning for your DVD signal. Could you post or take a look at a grayscale steps pattern. looks like blue maybe high from the screenshots. Not sure how it looks live though.

I put the how to info in the first post of this thread.

Here's a Grayscale shot of a user with a prototype PAL H77.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/grayscaleh77.jpg

You see he's got allot of work to do with the blue. Maybe he just picked the wrong color temp option also.

It's kind of an aside, but,

Tom, I see your whites as crushed in http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77vsteps.jpg

I'm guessing it's your camera exposure setting. It'd explain what I see in the brighter areas of some of your screenshots.

Dan

It's hard to distinguish the top two bars on the screen shot. Clearer in person. I may hv had the white peak at 6 which is not recommended but I use it for TV video. I can break the rules I think :).

Testers say the white peak feature can crush the whites and I have seen it in cloud scenes, but poorly done TV video sometimes needs help.

On two occasions, my H77 projector (on startup) has started to flash the red light (blue one stays lit). The projector has not started. I have manually turned it off (using the IO switch) and then restarted which corrected it. This has only done this twice (out of probably 100 starts). Anyone else seen this?

Here is my 5 minute novice review of my new H77:
Holy S&%@! This thing is nicer than I deserve! Way brighter than what I expected, and this is on a wrinkled bedsheet! In fact, I'm beginning to second guess my High Power order and maybe I should have got mat white, oh well. Colors are awesome right out of the box! No problems obvious to me yet. I checked the U571 scene and It looks like Tom's. If I look really hard I notice VERY slight ring around the light but it seems to disappear if I look strait at it. I cant notice during action, only when paused. I would have never noticed anything (because there really isn't anything) until you guys told me where to look. The Chinese 30' HDMI-DVI cable form PCCables works perfect. This picture is damned clear! Also, I got a HDMI to DVI adapter in the box with the PJ, is this normal? Cant wait to get it and the screen mounted. Later!

P.S. Thanks for all the help from all the forum contributors.

Oh ya, I have version 8 firmware. Tom can you explain this stuff about letterbox? What exactly will I not be able to do with this verion?

Tom, do you think the white setting on the H77 is behind the difference between these two screen shots?

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h30vertical2.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77vlimit2.jpg

Tubby, don't worry. I think you'll be happy with the bright picture. Also, you have a PM.

Dan

Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

tubby,
how big is your screen?? I have seen people here happy with a 110" firehawk. So since I am getting a 92" I choose a grayhawk instead. Haven't set up my screen yet. Hopefully it is not too dim.

Originally posted by SJHT
On two occasions, my H77 projector (on startup) has started to flash the red light (blue one stays lit). The projector has not started. I have manually turned it off (using the IO switch) and then restarted which corrected it. This has only done this twice (out of probably 100 starts). Anyone else seen this?

Yes. Mine has done it a few times also over the course of less than 100 cycles. Not sure why, but it has never happened twice in a row. I just wait for the projector to shut down and then I power it on again.

Originally posted by Guinan
Each time we speak to Optoma in the UK we get a slightly different story, but they are currently telling us that our machines will require not only a firmware upgrade but a replacement board in the H77. We have been told that this board replacement is being done on the shipment of 100 machines they have just received....we're hoping this gives us H77s like Toms!
Ian Guinan


Well i posted this question to Len (Head of Projector Business for Optoma Europe) and this is what i got back. I posted info from him before and am still a little unsure about posting whole emails but i do feel its in the best of interest for all of us waiting so here is part of the email.

-----------------------
Dear Daniel,

They came in this week,

We always do 100% test on newer models of this value.
There is no board replacement or firmware upgrade.
We did not get 100, we got a lower number but there are more arriving next
week.

The US version is completely different.

We ship next week.

Regards
Len
-----------------------

The nice thing is that this can still mean alot, he sees the themescene as a whole new model that hasn't shipped yet so it makes sense there is no hardware or software change since well its the first they ship. We might even see different firmware names D01 ? that somehow relate to the C12 or higher release tom talked about.

I can see that there are good reasons for them to try and split these 2 markets and i respect that for support reasons alone. The good news is they are coming now and we should see (2 to 3 weeks) the first reports of these units compare to the rest of the models.

Now back to waiting for mine :),

Daniel.

Originally posted by tubby
Here is my 5 minute novice review of my new H77:
Holy S&%@! This thing is nicer than I deserve! Way brighter than what I expected, and this is on a wrinkled bedsheet! In fact, I'm beginning to second guess my High Power order and maybe I should have got mat white, oh well. Colors are awesome right out of the box! No problems obvious to me yet. I checked the U571 scene and It looks like Tom's. If I look really hard I notice VERY slight ring around the light but it seems to disappear if I look strait at it. I cant notice during action, only when paused. I would have never noticed anything (because there really isn't anything) until you guys told me where to look. The Chinese 30' HDMI-DVI cable form PCCables works perfect. This picture is damned clear! Also, I got a HDMI to DVI adapter in the box with the PJ, is this normal? Cant wait to get it and the screen mounted. Later!

P.S. Thanks for all the help from all the forum contributors.

Contgratulations! right in time for the weekend. Your HP screen will be fine with the ceiling mount, you'll always have a nice bright picture and blacks shouldn't suffer at all.

How about a little HDTV? :)

I was just told by an Optoma retailer that they were discontinuing H77
model- said he called the company--anyone else been told this?

Nope, just talked with the insiders yesterday. Maybe there's confusion on the NTSC's vs the new PAL units.

I managed to get another look at the H77 today, and found a few intersting things:

It's ability to resolve component interlaced detail in the 6.75mhz Avia resolution circle is very very good - better than some other highly regarded HD2+ machines I've seen which show just a plain grey circle. The detail is comparable to those machines when fed a progressive signal.

The benefits of a Hoya FL-Day filter look minimal, though I only managed to get a short time calibrating it, and no time to ascertain which filter would achieve best results (see below).

The user advanced adjustments don't allow any increasing of RGB contrast above the zero settings when at 100ire - you can increase the slider, but no increase in any colour was seen or measured. This may be different in the service menu though. This has to be taken into account during calibration at 80ire.

On my HTPC, PowerDVD 5 has very little noise, and I prefer it to TT. On this very similar HTPC, TT looked better than PDVD5. I also found that TT minimised the posterisation that was occasionaly visible.

It would sync perfectly to 1280 x 720 on one HTPC, but wouldn't on another - it would register it as 940 x 544 (or something similar) and sometimes another resolution, so when in native mode, you wouldn't get the whole screen, or just a window. Very odd.

That's about it for the moment. If I remember anything else, I'll post it.

Gary.

Originally posted by dandj
I was just told by an Optoma retailer that they were discontinuing H77
model- said he called the company--anyone else been told this?
It might be something to this..........
new model early next year named H79
that's what I heard. Guitarman could check it out maybe, but optoma will surely not tell this I am sure....

hi,

strange news about the h77...
ok, if i got it right, there will be no fix for existing H77s ? but a whole new model?

hm, what does that mean for me and my faulty HC2000...
i was hoping that there will be a fix for the H77 and for the HC2000.

best regards.

Originally posted by jello
hi,

strange news about the h77...
ok, if i got it right, there will be no fix for existing H77s ? but a whole new model?

hm, what does that mean for me and my faulty HC2000...
i was hoping that there will be a fix for the H77 and for the HC2000.

best regards.

No lets not get ahead of ourselfs, The first batch of Themescenes H77 will ship next week in europe. So that dealer is wrong, now could it be true we will see a new model announced in few months ? sure.

Daniel.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
It would sync perfectly to 1280 x 720 on one HTPC, but wouldn't on another - it would register it as 940 x 544 (or something similar) and sometimes another resolution, so when in native mode, you wouldn't get the whole screen, or just a window. Very odd.

That´s interesing Gary. What graphics card did these two HTPCs have respectively.

Also, are you saying that the H77´s EDID info is broken, i.e. the GF 6800 GT wouldn´t work with it? Sure sounds like it if your HTPC registered 940 x 544... :(

EDID info? Not sure what that is, but you may be onto something. Can you go into more detail for me?

The HTPC that the H77 worked flawlesly with was a Radeon 9600 non pro. The troublesome one was a Radeon 9200.

The other interesting thing was the resolutions the 9200 graphics card would show as availaible - if we took the dvi connection out of the pj that was working fine, and plugged it into the H77, the 9200 would sometimes no longer show 1280 x 720 as an available resolution. This was done while both pjs were running, and nothing was switched off during the swap. It was if the feedback from the pj to the PC wasn't correct in some way.

Gary.

Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni. No contouring problem with U571 scene.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

Dandaroy- NTSC. Major problems with smearing and panning.

Originally posted by tubby
Oh ya, I have version 8 firmware. Tom can you explain this stuff about letterbox? What exactly will I not be able to do with this verion?

C11 has better lettebox support for non anamorphic dvds, if your player doesn't have the support. Bravo's have the support. Which player are you using?

Thanks Tom, I have the new Sony 975 HDMI player. I think it has this already but I'll have to check. What does "non anamorphic" actually mean?

Older movies like, Armageddon, Rounders before the re-do, Event Horizon, Clear and Present danger, Army or Darkness (one of my favorites :).

There's a few out there, you'll known you got one when the image is squashed down or shown with a frame around it and you can't zoom it back to natural. My Bravo and JVC will zoom them correctly.

If your player will do it it will be with a zoom button or and aspect set that looks like 16.9auto with 16.9normal. The later is the way the JVC's cover it.

Thanks Tom. I think my Sony HDMI DVD has CUE and it seems kinda bothersome so I'm thinking of using my old dvd changer for now until I can settle on the "perfect cheap dvd player". Question is with my old Sony changer (component) is it better to send an interlaced or progressive signal to the H77?

Take a look at each result. Usually having the DVD do the deinterlacing is best but not always the case so take a look. Run some torture tests. Gladiator the Colosseum run, just after Como baby puts the soldier in the miniature gladiator ring. Check the pan on the rooftops. Which ever way plays it better.

Hi Tom

I am planning to get a new PJ and essentially shortlisted Optoma H77, BenQ 8700+ and Infocus 7205. Reading your posts , I am leaning towards H77.

Here's my setup.

I have a dedicated home theater room in the basement. The length is 19 ft. That would be where the seating would be, and the PJ will go right above the seating. The wall for the screen is 14.4 ft wide and can be fully used. The height is 7.8 ft.

I am thinking of getting a 120/136 inch diagonal screen or even bigger. I can control the ambient light completely and the walls are relatively dark. Will the H77 give enough light and detail for this size of screen with the dimensions I gave?

I will be using the setup for mainly movies and HD. I am planning to run 480p or even upconverted signal through Denon 2910 (DVI) and of course 720p for HD. I do not know how many DVI/HDMI inputs the H77 has; I may have to get a switch.

For this setup, what would be your recommended PJ? All experts please feel free to chip in!

Finally, I read people mentioning H77 through AVSforum to get the best deal. How do I do that? Or are there any good places where I can get a good deal? Optoma web site does not list any dealers.

Thanks..
Ravi

PM me and I'll send you a spot or 2 with aggressive pricing. Your PM is turned off. You need to look at Optoma's calculator to be sure you can mount the PJ as far back as you want. Mine does fine on a 110", I've had folks say at 135 and up the infocus was good but does not have the contrast or black levels (i.e. picture quality) that the H77 does. But I have not seen for myself.

Ravi,

One suggestion...Do NOT put the seating all the way back to the back wall if at all possible. This can destroy bass response (too boomy) and surround envelopment as well as many other frequency response type issues. Please consult a good audio guy (not really me, I am a video man myself:D) and/or this Forum for more details.

Also, as far as video, going with the larger screen (136"?) and then just sitting further back (19'?) would have the same effect as sitting closer with a smaller, more manageable screen size for the projector.

So, my point is, move the seating closer to the screen and away from the back wall for better sound and to also allow you to use a smaller screen size for the pj, but it appears to be the same size because you're sitting closer (i.e. - Has filled the same field of vision horizontally, about 35 degrees from center).

Last night we were watching my son's new Bionicle movie in our HT (H77 and 100" Firehawk). There is a scene that has some fast moving wind with the characters standing still. All of a sudden I saw that each of the character's faces and other parts of them were stretching and sort of breaking up. I kept thinking about the comments made on this thread. After we were done I took the DVD to our 35" tube set and guess what, it did the exact same thing (only smaller :) ). I have been reading too many posts in this thread. My entire family loves our H77. The picture performance is fantastic. I can barely remember watching our old 65" HD RPTV any more. Well, onto watching more football on HD this weekend. SJ

In fact, the room is 44' long and I am putting a thick curtain to seclude the area when we are watching. So, there will be a curtain (not wall) behind the seating. I do not know if it will make a difference. The 19' is kind of arbitrary since that is where I chose to put the curtain; wet bar starts behind that.
My current set up has the seating at 19' and the display is Samsung DLP 61"" RPTV. The picture size is adequate but we want to move it to the family room and get the PJ in HT. The screen size of 136" is also arbitrary since that seems to be the maximum for the 19' distance.

In other words, all the arrangements can be changed except probably for the room dimensions.

I am attaching a couple of pictures to give a better idea.

Ravi

Here's the other pic. This is the longish view of the room. The partition (curtain) will go just afterthe wet bar.

Saw the H77 at Sound & Vision show in London today. Poor Epson were stuck next door trying to show off thier PJ in a room where you couldn't turn the lights off! Maybe someone from Optoma helped set it up ? :-)

I didn't know what to expect - I have been using an old 8" crt for years and have seen LCDs but never DLPs.

Well, I was very impressed. Very vivid colours and contrast compared to my crt. Even detail in dark scenes seemed good, though there was a little light on the screen so I couldn't tell how dark the blacks would look in a totally darkened room - I suspect not quite crt good.

I did not see any of the nasties mentioned in this thread and the rep said they would deliver within 5 days if an order was placed at the show (also true for H57). The sources were DVD (not sure if 576i or 576p) and a D-Theater player (very nice when it wasn't stuttering).

I was able to see pixellation at 1x screen width and hardly if at all at 1.5x which would mean a smaller screen for me as I watch at about 1.1x currently. Didn't see any rainbows (did see a couple of flashes with H57).

Overall, I am very tempted. Incidetally, I was also impressed by the lesser models H30 & H57

Originally posted by nortonl
the rep said they would deliver within 5 days if an order was placed at the show.

Sounds about right. If everything goes as planned logistically, I will have a unit off the first batch of the new PAL units with me on Tuesday for testing. I really hope all the raised issues will have been fixed... :)

Originally posted by nortonl
Saw the H77 at Sound & Vision show in London today. Poor Epson were stuck next door trying to show off thier PJ in a room where you couldn't turn the lights off! Maybe someone from Optoma helped set it up ? :-)

I didn't know what to expect - I have been using an old 8" crt for years and have seen LCDs but never DLPs.

Well, I was very impressed. Very vivid colours and contrast compared to my crt. Even detail in dark scenes seemed good, though there was a little light on the screen so I couldn't tell how dark the blacks would look in a totally darkened room - I suspect not quite crt good.

I did not see any of the nasties mentioned in this thread and the rep said they would deliver within 5 days if an order was placed at the show (also true for H57). The sources were DVD (not sure if 576i or 576p) and a D-Theater player (very nice when it wasn't stuttering).

I was able to see pixellation at 1x screen width and hardly if at all at 1.5x which would mean a smaller screen for me as I watch at about 1.1x currently. Didn't see any rainbows (did see a couple of flashes with H57).

Overall, I am very tempted. Incidetally, I was also impressed by the lesser models H30 & H57


Thanks for the report, good to see that they are indeed ready for shipping. Lets see if all the problems have been solved.

Daniel.

Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- PAL set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- NTSC set. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni. No contouring problem with U571 scene.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

Dandaroy- NTSC. Major problems with smearing and panning.

Stevefred- NTSC. No problems.

H77 NTSC C08
Denon 3910

I have not found any problems that could not be traced back to the source material. Any time that I thought that I had found something, I played the same scene back on a CRT and was able to duplicate the problem.

Hugh, did you try this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4617161#post4617161) out?

NiToNi,

Yes I did try that scene out last night and saw the same results on my old Sony CRT and my H77.

I currently have the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia game on in HDTV and was able to duplicate the smeared faces in the background that were previously posted, even the lack of apparent color depth on them. I am now convinced that such effects are in the source material and have nothing to do with my H77.

Here is a shot of my set up and today's game.

H77, Samsung SIR-T451, FOX HDTV signal OTA

Here is the shot with the background smearing. I believe that this is normal and is merely an artifact of panning and aperture setting.

Hugh, I've always agreed. Nice setup, how do you like the blacks and colors? something else heh

I checked out the gandalfs light in the Moria scene pans for nitoni. Walking out of the cave etc Aragorns head movement. It's fine and looks the same on the progressive tube TV.

my H76 came today - used the wall in the hallway to test it and it works. That's all I can do for a couple of weeks other than prewire its new location in the new theater!!

I got that new budget NEC HT410 to test. Not bad, it has a feature to que in on different wall colors, handy feature you could hv used it.

Can someone tell me how long the power cord is that comes with the H77? Could I get a right angle plug to use? Wish they had put the plug in the back :confused:

It's looks about 12' and the PJ connector is typical computer type 3 prong.

Thanks Tom.

Almost There!
Wow, I've been busting my @ss getting this baby set up. Really a challenge when putting one of these in a finished 1950's Den. Plenty of work snaking surround sound and ceiling PJ, Im sure the Pro's are worth every penny for the install, but If I didn't do all my own work I could never afford all this cool stuff. One setback: I lined up my screen center with my "Laser" and installed my chief mount but I forgot to add the 5" for the lense being offset to the side of center on the PJ. Doooh. I spent all day today cutting a new hole and getting it re-mounted.
Now the fun begins.

Don't let it bother you I got drill holes all over the ceiling. :)

Monday Night Footballs on. Man it doesn't get better than this. The whole screen's lit up with saturated colors and brightness.
enjoy

Tom, are you using "Native" mode for the HD broadcast?

Originally posted by guitarman

Monday Night Footballs on. Man it doesn't get better than this. The whole screen's lit up with saturated colors and brightness.
enjoy

I agree. The picture was fantastic. Amazing how good artificial turf looks :)

Is there a cheap universal remote that will address most of my basic functions of PJ and stereo components?

Originally posted by tubby
Almost There!
Wow, I've been busting my @ss getting this baby set up. Really a challenge when putting one of these in a finished 1950's Den. Plenty of work snaking surround sound and ceiling PJ, Im sure the Pro's are worth every penny for the install, but If I didn't do all my own work I could never afford all this cool stuff. One setback: I lined up my screen center with my "Laser" and installed my chief mount but I forgot to add the 5" for the lense being offset to the side of center on the PJ. Doooh. I spent all day today cutting a new hole and getting it re-mounted.
Now the fun begins.

Well you are not the first and won't be the last to make this mistake, see it as part of the welcome ritual into the cult of front projectors.

Greetings,

Daniel '8holes in ceiling' Ockeloen.

I´ve tried the H77 out with a HTPC @ 47.952 Hz and it syncs, but does someone know if the color wheel really adapts to that frequency?

Originally posted by Cilent1
Tom, are you using "Native" mode for the HD broadcast?

No I'm using 1080i and 16.9scaling aspect. For DVD I use 720p & native 1.1.

Info for the PAL guys, :)
I hear Ti is first involved in setting mirror timings for colorwheels and that first they do NTSC. It's usually two months after that before that product is done with the PAL signals timings. Keep this in mind for future reference.

So you guys should be getting the final product any day now. I'd like to hear from some happy owners and see posts of the u571 shot with no more contouring. :)

Let us know.

I´ve tried the H77 out with a HTPC @ 47.952 Hz and it syncs, but does someone know if the color wheel really adapts to that frequency?
According to Li On, the HC2000 does. So I would assume that the H77 does as well.

Originally posted by guitarman
No I'm using 1080i and 16.9scaling aspect. For DVD I use 720p & native 1.1.

Info for the PAL guys, :)
I hear Ti is first involved in setting mirror timings for colorwheels and that first they do NTSC. It's usually two months after that before that product is done with the PAL signals timings. Keep this in mind for future reference.

So you guys should be getting the final product any day now. I'd like to hear from some happy owners and see posts of the u571 shot with no more contouring. :)

Let us know.

I agree with this, i was told it normally takes 2 or 3 months to tune for pal but its not us who started sending out demo's and taking orders on a unit that was not done yet. They created all these confusing weeks themselfs by not making clear they send out ntsc units in pal areas without setting a clear date on when the 'themescene H77' would be done and shipping.

So small update, there is now a small batch starting to ship inside of the uk (except for one that they promised to send to me in the netherlands, within a few days i should have it) bigger shipments expected in 1 or 2 weeks.

It seems the people who have waited the longest will get them first starting with the UK then the rest of europe. So in a few days we can expect some PAL units to show up on the forum and we can share
info on the firmware, fixes....

Greetings,

Daniel.

Sounds sooner that I thought, good news.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guitarman
[B]No I'm using 1080i and 16.9scaling aspect. For DVD I use 720p & native 1.1.

Tom, are these parameters programable for each input or do you have to change them each time you change sources?

It's easy I have component cables from the comcast box for 1080i and use the 16.9aspect. For DVD I use the Bravo with DVI which is set to 720p and just hit the native aspect on the H77.

The native aspect has zero overscan to 1.1 pixel match. I could do the same thing with the comcast box, meaning running it with DVI, setting the box to 720p and using the native aspect on the H77. But since I don't use a DVI switch box I have to choose which signal I'd prefer to do the 1.1.

I choose DVD. :)

Pretty nice toy to have in your house isn't it? What did you say "More than I deserve!"
enjoy it it's about the best picture out there.

Originally posted by guitarman
[Pretty nice toy to have in your house isn't it? What did you say "More than I deserve!"
enjoy it it's about the best picture out there. [/B]

You ain't kiddin. Best part is I just spent 7k+ on A/V equipment and the wife and kids love it! Funny thing is that while she will let me spend cash on equipment she is adamant on not paying monthly fees for cable/sat. I'm restricted to OTA HDTV only. I wish I had my screen to really check it out.

One thing, have you ever noticed this: On my Sony HDMI DVD player (which I took back), during shots where there are black and white stripes in the scene like writing on a distant chalkboard, the lines seem to bounce around, also in the U571 scene in the sub where they are all sitting at the table drinking coffee, the outline of the coffee cups on the table seem to kinda move around. Its hard to explain but only happens in areas of high contrast. Anyways, this effect was MUCH more noticable with the HDMI player than my cheap 480p changer, the downside is that the HDMI player was much more clear.
So is there a name for what I am seeing? And is this a normal artifact? Thanks.

It may have been your HDMI cable. Were you using an adapter or an HDMI-DVI cable? What screen did you decide to go with tubby?

Originally posted by Cilent1
It may have been your HDMI cable. Were you using an adapter or an HDMI-DVI cable? What screen did you decide to go with tubby?

It occured with the component out also, so I think I can rule out the cable. I went with a High Power screen mostly because for an electric screen it was the cheapest way to go w/o wrinkles.

Let us know how the HP screen works out with the H77.

I will probably have 1500hrs on my H77 with-in the first year.

I have 240+ hrs now and with Halo2 on Xbox, playing it on a 119" screen, with the great graphics and awesome sound, I better stock up on the $400 bulbs, LOLOL..

Steve

Jay the jaggies may have been poor deinterlacing with the Sony. Next time you see anything like that send an interlaced signal to see how the projector handles it.

Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- NTSC C08 set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out. Moria scene in LOTR, there is a bit of contour in Legolas face during pan.

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- c08 NTSC. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni. No contouring problem with U571 scene.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

Dandaroy- NTSC. Major problems with smearing and panning.

Stevefred- NTSC. No problems.

took out my H77 to play with again.

got into service menu and my firmware is C08 NTSC!!! no I did not get a PAL unit like what my dealer said. But I think that may be for the better considering how many problems they have.

Should I upgrade my firmware? Is there any real benefits?

Originally posted by alantkh
Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- NTSC C08 set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out. Moria scene in LOTR, there is a bit of contour in Legolas face during pan.

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- c08 NTSC. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni. No contouring problem with U571 scene.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

Dandaroy- NTSC. Major problems with smearing and panning.

Stevefred- NTSC. No problems.

SJHT - NTSC - c08. No problems that I can see with my setup.

"Messiah" has reported in another forum that he received his H77 today with the new PAL firmware ( 'v.c14 26October2004 PAL' ) and that the reported "contouring" problems are no longer there.

Originally posted by Cilent1
"Messiah" has reported in another forum that he received his H77 today with the new PAL firmware ( 'v.c14 26October2004 PAL' ) and that the reported "contouring" problems are no longer there.

There also seems to be a change in the amount of 'smearing' seen by some, good to see my sources are correct and we will see more units soon and more feedback. Also the C14 26Oct firmware makes me feel that the same software will make it to the states unchanged (i would expected the themescene units to have its own naming if they would split the code, the PAL extention is probably just a way for them to check the origin).


Daniel.

Guitarman- NTSC C08 set. no problem whatsoever

Alantkh- NTSC C08 set. minor smearing problem with 480p xbox progressive component out. No contouring problem with 480p xbox progressive out. Moria scene in LOTR, there is a bit of contour in Legolas face during pan.

iblumberg- NTSC, firmware C08 June, minor smearing problem with 720p DVI connection (denon 2910).

Dharp- c08 NTSC. major problem with smearing over all resolutions via HD input (Comcast Motorola 6208?) and 720P using BRAVO D2 + many other sources. similar to Nitoni. No contouring problem with U571 scene. Smearing problem is exceptionally bad on HD input compared to DVD.

MRJAZZZ- NTSC set. no problem whatsoever.

scotthorton- NTSC set. smearing problem with 720p DVI Bravo D2 and Motorola 62xx? STB 1080i (it's the newer Moto. with active DVI avail) via 6' Component to receiver switch then 30' IXOS component cables to PJ. smearing worse with Bravo D2.

NiToNi - NTSC and PAL set. Severe motion dithering over DVI input on NTSC @480p, PAL @ 576p, HD or upscaled PAL & NTSC @ 720p & 1080i. Also, severe smearing over component input on NTSC @ 480i/p, PAL @576i/p, HD or upscaled NTSC & PAL @ 720p & 1080i.

Hugh_DaMann- NTSC?. No smearing problem with denon 3910.

Tubby- NTSC c08. No contouring problem with DVI connection, sony DVD player (?)

Dandaroy- NTSC. Major problems with smearing and panning.

Stevefred- NTSC. No problems.

SJHT - NTSC - c08. No problems that I can see with my setup.

Originally posted by NiToNi
Tom,

PM me your address and I´ll send you a DVD with that you-know-which-scene...

NiToNi,
Thx for sending me the DVD clips. Your PAL disc didn't play on my Pany or JVC's but it does play on the Bravo D1. Two clips the Shire scene and Unleash Hell. Both play very well with no contour and look very close to my store bought copies. Nice job recording.

Dang Tom, how much does Optoma pay you anyway, hehehe;)!?!?!?!

On a technical note. I hooked up my HTPC to the H77 via DVI out of a Radeon 9200 card. I tried 60Hz refresh on the LOTR-FoTR scene mentioned, it still had the panning issue in their faces. I switched the refresh to 48Hz, which as mentioned the H77 accepts, and the panning issue definitely improved, but was still slightly there and annoying. I also think I saw slightly more contouring, especiallly around Gandalf's staff light. This must be the previous issue with PAL land, since 48Hz is so close to 50Hz PAL.

I think this shows that it indeed does have something to do with timings of the color wheel and the DMD, because I could definitely hear the color wheel slow down in comparison to 60Hz. If it's possible, this pj actually got even quieter:D!!!

I also want to mention that the image, minus the panning issue and some slight contouring, using my HTPC and 48Hz is just incredible!!! The picture is totally clean, sharp, 3D, eye popping and the motion is much improved at 48Hz. As far as I'm concerned, the Bravo D2 is now relegated to backup duty in my rack and the HTPC is staying. I was thinking of going out and getting something like a Denon 3910, Pioneer 59avi, Onkyo SP1000 or Integra 10.5. Now I can't even imagine any of those improving on the HTPC at 48Hz:)!!!

Lol, that's because I've watched the Shire and Hell unleashed scene many times and have enjoyed them all along. I never saw any problems. :)

I'm looking at the Moria scene now again, chapter 34 A Journey into the dark.
First I'm watching it on my tube TV. There's no contour caused by Gandalf's light but the panning of Legolos as he quickly turn his face to look back on the group shows a blur, also Aragorn as he bops his head shows blur.

Ok now on the H77 at 106", first there's no contour from the light. The two blurry shots will show the blur and with DLP technology this will show stagnated. This is what's been called DLP dither. It's true setup and just maybe the firmware that will help the more serious pal problem of contour may also tighten up the DLP dither. The engineer told me this last week.

But DLP dither won't go away permanent as it's part of the technology on 1 chip DLP's.

To tell the truth I've had machines for the last few years and never really looked into the movies for DLP dither and never participated in the discussions.
I think this is not very noticeable and is more pronounced in a few certain scenes. That's why all the movies I've watched over the years I never really noticed it.

You can change the refresh rate in the Bravo custom menu. I'm going to try it If I can just remember the custom entry code. :)

" Dang Tom, how much does Optoma pay you anyway, hehehe!?!?!? " -

Having met Tom, and having run his H77 through it's paces while A / B'ing my HT1000 at the same time, I can vouch for the fact that his H77 looked better than my HT1000. And I don't even know anybody at Optoma : )

Tom,

I know what standard DLP dither looks like, and this isn't it. Me thinks maybe there are just a few H77s out there that have some sort of QA problem and maybe yours and others just don't have this problem, but some like me do. Can we just agree to disagree here??? DVDs on my H77 actually look much better in this regard than my HD panning does, that's where the real problem shows up.

The code to get into the Bravo's custom setup is "9713" while in the DVI setup screen. I have a call into them to ask exactly how to put in the custom timings to match my HTPC.

Thx for the code, been looking thru all my papers with no avail. I'll give it a shot. You get the firmware in the FAQ area of the Vinc website.

I'll need to know the correct vertical refresh rate for 48000hz horizontal. Anyone know?