Optoma H77 Review & Screenshots [Text View] - Page 6

danielo

11-15-04, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Guinan
Danielo,

I know you have firm beliefs that there have not been any H77s so far, but I can assure you that they have told me that mine will receive a firmware upgrade initially.

If that cures it then that will be all that is required. It has been explained to a fellow H77 owner that some early H77s may need one of the boards replacing if it is not possible to upgrade the firmware in the 'colour sequencer'.

To be honest if having a new one was an option I'd take it as I've got >100Hrs on my bulb already (blame Halo2 and rewatching lots of my favourite movies for that ;) ).

The PAL user 'messiah' has had his H77 upgraded already and his banding has gone so I'm optimistic that this could be fixed. We've heard that the units coming out to european dealers are being hand upgraded one-by-one (hence the trickle out to dealers rather than a flood).

Hope you get yours soon.

Regards,

Ian Guinan

ehmm sorry i know there are H77's out allready (not many) its optoma who feels 'none' - 'real' have shipped. In no way do i doubt you this is not my spin.

The rebuild could be true but in that case all older units need a hardware change too no ? Even more reasons to expect all will be swapped or rebuild (change hardware).

I can't be 100% sure the new batch doesn't need any changes i only asked the one resposible at optima europe about it and this was his reply :

--------------
They came in this week,

We always do 100% test on newer models of this value.
There is no board replacement or firmware upgrade.
We did not get 100, we got a lower number but there are more arriving next
week.
---------------

And he is the guy resposible for all projector sales in europe and the guy who signed of on the european production run in taiwan, so either he is bending the info or not.

It all doesn't matter too much, its good to see the projector is now ready for sales and most problems seem to be solved lets hope we all get our projectors soon and have some movie fun.

Daniel.

jfinneru

11-15-04, 04:47 PM

here is a pic of the light I am talking about outside the frame. on both side of the frame. has been like this on all four h77 I have seen, so this is not a one hit wonder. It's not a big problem but if I could get rid of it, I would.

guitarman

11-15-04, 04:53 PM

Interesting picture but when I align my 16.9 screen I can see no light on the borders around the screen frame, or light on the white walls for that matter.

Isn't it the same for you?

SteveFred

11-15-04, 04:57 PM

I do not see any light outside the borders of mine either. I do have wall fabric, so I might not see anything because of almost no reflection.

Steve

jfinneru

11-15-04, 05:05 PM

an easy way for you guys to check is to push the powerbutton and choose videomute. then hold a piece of white paper in front of the lens. Tom could you show my pic to your optoma dudes and ask them what they think of it?

guitarman

11-15-04, 05:08 PM

Some of us have been lucky and just tooling along enjoying the excellent picture. Good to here the Euro contouring is gone. My hours are at 575 low lamp & 175 high lamp. Still brightness looks good in low lamp. I'll use bright when I feel I need the extra punch. Like yesterday watching football all day.

jfinneru

11-15-04, 05:24 PM

greyscale looks perfect from my 3910 now, and colors are right on the spot out of the box. also have a sp1000 here. looks like many on avs finds that one to be superior to 3910. I don't yet. need to play some more with it first

Guinan

11-15-04, 05:43 PM

Hey Jfinneru!

From your picture I'd recommend you get a larger screen to fully enjoy your H77, and I notice some unusual perforations at the bottom edge of your screen material? [joke!]

Don't see anything like this on mine, but I'll have a look now you've pointed it out.

Regards,

Ian Guinan

SJHT

11-15-04, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by jfinneru
here is a pic of the light I am talking about outside the frame. on both side of the frame. has been like this on all four h77 I have seen, so this is not a one hit wonder. It's not a big problem but if I could get rid of it, I would.

My H77 doesn't seem to have this problem. Fits perfectly on my 16:9 screen. Do you possibly have your vertical lens shift maxed out? That might introduce issues... SJ

guitarman

11-15-04, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by jfinneru
greyscale looks perfect from my 3910 now, and colors are right on the spot out of the box. also have a sp1000 here. looks like many on avs finds that one to be superior to 3910. I don't yet. need to play some more with it first

Mine is tuned very well otb also. Do you notice that your user advanced adjustments already have some numbers set there by the factory? And different sets of numbers according to what signal you send.

Cilent1

11-15-04, 09:45 PM

Is everyone receiving "white" H77's now or are some people getting the Silver cases?

orion23

11-15-04, 10:15 PM

Regarding Jfinneru's light outside the picture: My h77 does exactly the same thing. I noticed that with dark scenes there was a faint border of light that extended about 1 foot all the way around the picture on a 92 inch screen. I didn't notice it on any but the darkest scenes, but it bothered me enough to build a mask to place in front of the lens to block the light leakage.

Rob

tubby

11-15-04, 10:29 PM

Well I finally have my home theater completed. Monday night football on the High Power Screen is the best picture I have ever seen. There are no artifacts, smearing, or contoring. This is awesome. Unless I feel like I need to calibrate my PJ and need some help with that, this may be my last post for a while. To be honest, I don't want to know about all the problems others are having, it will just distract me from enjoying this wonderful machine. Thanks to all, especially Tom. Signing off.
Aloha.

Cilent1

11-15-04, 10:45 PM

Boy, I can't wait to get where you're at right now Jay. Run and never come back :D... Until the bug bites again :p . Enjoy your new toy!!

guitarman

11-15-04, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by tubby
Well I finally have my home theater completed. Monday night football on the High Power Screen is the best picture I have ever seen. There are no artifacts, smearing, or contoring. This is awesome. Unless I feel like I need to calibrate my PJ and need some help with that, this may be my last post for a while. To be honest, I don't want to know about all the problems others are having, it will just distract me from enjoying this wonderful machine. Thanks to all, especially Tom. Signing off.
Aloha.

We all thought the high power screen would be a great match for the H77. I have an idea on what you're seeing. :)

Way better than you deserve! lol
enjoy

alantkh

11-16-04, 01:45 AM

Nice to hear that your HT is done and everything is fine.

Mine will take one or 2 more weeks :) then I will be off too. Can't wait for my screen to be up.

Fishhooks

11-16-04, 04:44 AM

jfinneru:

Would be interested in your opinion on the comparisons with the PD Action mk11.
I see you like the 1080i deinterlacing better, but have you noted other differences.
I think Andrea Manuti has a test on the Action coming soon as well.

jfinneru

11-16-04, 04:55 AM

the MkII and the H77 are very simular, but there are some differences. more contrast/darker blacklevel on MkII, no light spil from lens. better menues and calibration posebilities. H77 are better on noise level, lens shift, perhaps a little more punch in colors.

jello

11-16-04, 05:43 AM

hi,

jfinneru: my HC2000 shows this light problem on the left side of the picture but only on the left. theres a light line just 5cm outside the picture. but is does not bother me really.
im far more concerned about the banding and panning problem... are they resolved ?

ok,

i took some pictures of my HC2000 showing U571.
the HC2000 is already a changed one (in october) and it shows the problems. firmware c04 (HC2000)
i "optimized" the CWI to receive a little better picture with banding.

first scene is panning motion artifact, just at the start of chapter 3 of u571:

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3761376439363563.jpg

tom, perhaps you can check that out with your H77 to verify if this problem exists on your set.

now on to the banding/smearing/contouring:

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3462653337653837.jpg
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3039636230376364.jpg
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3363623034333432.jpg
(chapter 17 u-571)

with the green uboat picture i think we can blame the dark green segment... :)

all pictures are taken from a pioneer 747, component progressive (480P)

bstrgds

danielo

11-16-04, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Cilent1
Is everyone receiving "white" H77's now or are some people getting the Silver cases?

As far as i know all the new production runs will be white...

Daniel.

jfinneru

11-16-04, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by jello
hi,

jfinneru: my HC2000 shows this light problem on the left side of the picture but only on the left. theres a light line just 5cm outside the picture. but is does not bother me really.
im far more concerned about the banding and panning problem... are they resolved ?

ok,

i took some pictures of my HC2000 showing U571.
the HC2000 is already a changed one (in october) and it shows the problems. firmware c04 (HC2000)
i "optimized" the CWI to receive a little better picture with banding.

first scene is panning motion artifact, just at the start of chapter 3 of u571:

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3761376439363563.jpg

tom, perhaps you can check that out with your H77 to verify if this problem exists on your set.

now on to the banding/smearing/contouring:

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3462653337653837.jpg
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3039636230376364.jpg
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3363623034333432.jpg
(chapter 17 u-571)

with the green uboat picture i think we can blame the dark green segment... :)

all pictures are taken from a pioneer 747, component progressive (480P)

bstrgds
yes the banding contouring problem is solved. picture looks super!

Cilent1

11-16-04, 02:02 PM

jello, have you calibrated your replacement HC2000? Compared to Tom's pic, it sems much too green, but the banding does not look excessive. Are you saying you can't get rid of the green cast even with calibration?

jello's HC2000
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/42/3970642/1800_3462653337653837.jpg
Tom's H77
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77u571.jpg

guitarman

11-16-04, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by jfinneru
yes the banding contouring problem is solved. picture looks super!

Did you notice a new adjustment feature in one of the menu's?

jfinneru

11-16-04, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by guitarman
Did you notice a new adjustment feature in one of the menu's?
yes, "signal". adjustments called horizontal and vertical. Didn't use them to get good picture

Alan Gouger

11-16-04, 03:43 PM

Im still impressed with Toms screen shots and how well the projector handles those over saturated movies.

Tom/anyone

Seeing as you mentioned a few new controls while the topic was on Contour banding is that what the controls are for?

Dave Harper

11-16-04, 03:53 PM

Alan,

No, those signal adjustments, horizontal and vertical, are like a phase adjustment that moves the image up, down, left or right. At least that's what they do on mine.

Can someone else please try the white paper trick to see if they get light emitted from the lens when in video mute mode? I have this problem also and am wondering if this is a sign of those units that also have other problems like mine.

Alan Gouger

11-16-04, 04:15 PM

Thanks Dave.

guitarman

11-16-04, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Im still impressed with Toms screen shots and how well the projector handles those over saturated movies.

Tom/anyone

Seeing as you mentioned a few new controls while the topic was on Contour banding is that what the controls are for?

Yes, the added control is for helping contour which I was told is related to the new green segments on the color wheels. They're mainly for PAL users but the tech said they may add a little something for NSTC owners also.

guitarman

11-16-04, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by jfinneru
yes, "signal". adjustments called horizontal and vertical. Didn't use them to get good picture

We already had the Horizontal/vertical, I think the new adjustments at least one of them will read as (RBB). Wing wasn't sure which menu would have it. Look in all of them. My guess would be Image or Picture. They may have put it in the User 1 menu, that's where they put the YUU/RGB for the Australian market. Pls look around.

jfinneru

11-16-04, 05:00 PM

looked around in both rca and dvi input. only the signal thing i didn't remember from the old one. no other new adjustments.

guitarman

11-16-04, 05:17 PM

I'll try to contact the Engineer tomorrow to find out what he meant, he's out today.

Fishhooks

11-16-04, 06:46 PM

that's where they put the YUU/RGB for the Australian market.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Australian PAL Video spec. is the same as Europe and UK.

The only difference between the systems is the Australian PAL transmitted TV signal differs to the UK transmitted signal and this relates to the Audio not Video.

guitarman

11-16-04, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Fishhooks
that's where they put the YUU/RGB for the Australian market.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Australian PAL Video spec. is the same as Europe and UK.

The only difference between the systems is the Australian PAL transmitted TV signal differs to the UK transmitted signal and this relates to the Audio not Video.

YUU/RGB was a firmware for the H30 because some areas were having problems. The Engineer said it was added so the machine would work better in some different markets, Austrailia was one of them.

The H77 has it too, YUU/RGB/auto, hey maybe that's were they put the RBB.

Dave Harper

11-16-04, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by guitarman
YUU/RGB was a firmware for the H30 because some areas were having problems. ...

Tom,

I believe you mean "YUV"/RGB, not YUU/RGB right? YUV is another slight variation of component video, like YPbPr and YCbCr but mainly in the pro realm used on professional VTRs from the likes of Sony and Panasonic Broadcast.

guitarman

11-16-04, 08:42 PM

Maybe, :)

I may be wrong on the RBB, just going by memory. I'll find out for sure tomorrow if he picks up the phone.

Dave Harper

11-16-04, 11:22 PM

Tom, I wasn't talking about the supposed new "RBB" setting. I was trying to say that I think when you say "YUU/RGB" in the above post, you really mean "YUV/RGB", because YUV is a form of component video (like YPbPr, YCbCr, RGB, etc.) and I don't really know what YUU could possibly be.

Fishhooks

11-17-04, 01:37 AM

YUV is the correct term and yes, it does refer to a form of component.
It would be interesting to find out though, just what this tweak is for, as it definitely does not apply to Europe, UK, Asia or Australia.

Dave Harper

11-17-04, 01:48 AM

It's not a tweak, it's a setting where you choose the color space of the BNC and/or the RCA component inputs. You can set it to YUV (component), RGB or AUTO to auto select.

LRUH

11-17-04, 03:46 AM

Hi Joern or any other PAL users

How does the picture look with poorer quality sources like VHS/Laserdisc (composite), SDTV (RGB) etc. I am thinking mainly of de-interlacing quality - is it close to an external deinterlacer like an iScan or HTPC/DScaler ?

Sadly, for the time being, many of us in Europe are stuck with these sources for much of our viewing!

Thanks

jfinneru

11-17-04, 04:51 AM

the deinterlacing sucked on the premodel, but now on the final release the deinterlacing is very good. close to faroudja quality.

jello

11-17-04, 05:49 AM

@Cilent1:

sure i can get rid of the greenish look, but it does not help on the banding/contouring issue.

im gonna re-calibrate when theres a fix for the contouring problem, and its for sure that calibration alone does not fix the problem...

waiting for the HC2000 fix.

tom, did you check the chapter3 u571 panning motion problem ?

thanks.

guitarman

11-17-04, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by jfinneru
looked around in both rca and dvi input. only the signal thing i didn't remember from the old one. no other new adjustments.

The adjustment is called (NDG) which means Neutral Dark Green, you might find it in the Image menu. It will have a switch on switch off. This is to better the contouring and could also come in handy as the bulb ages. See if you can find it.

guitarman

11-17-04, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by jello
@Cilent1:

sure i can get rid of the greenish look, but it does not help on the banding/contouring issue.

im gonna re-calibrate when theres a fix for the contouring problem, and its for sure that calibration alone does not fix the problem...

waiting for the HC2000 fix.

tom, did you check the chapter3 u571 panning motion problem ?

thanks.

The panning blur motion is source related. (motorcycle guy) It plays this way on my tube tv also.

jfinneru

11-17-04, 03:03 PM

the NDG thing is in the advanced menu ( the push all button menu;-))

Dave Harper

11-17-04, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by guitarman
The panning blur motion is source related. (motorcycle guy) It plays this way on my tube tv also.
Tom,

We know the pix that client1 posted just looks like regular motion blur, but when viewed on our (faulty???) H77s, the effect turns into the "Clay-motion" look as discussed earlier. On a CRT monitor, it looks like it should look, normal motion blur caused by images in motion.

Like I said previously, you can't possibly capture the effect in a still camera shot because the image MUST be in motion to see the result.

I guess it can be sort of described like this:

If you made a moving cartoon of a man walking across the screen horizontally. For it to look like he's in smooth motion, you would need like 30 different cartoon still images for it to appear smooth as they flipped through. With ours, it looks like they only used about 15 or so, so the image kind of jerks across, stopping temporarily at each frame, adding a dark line around edges, as well as blurring the details into a flat cartoony watercolor look in things like the faces, etc.

When it's done properly, it should blend the frames somewhat so it looks like smooth motion, but causing some blurriness as his pictures represents and what's seen on a CRT.

God I hope they give me that FW soon:(!!!

guitarman

11-17-04, 03:13 PM

So it's in the service menu. Looks like they don't want easy access to the function. Down the road when your bulb ages allot, you might want to try the other setting NDG uses. What ever that may be. :)
thx

guitarman

11-17-04, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom,

We know the pix that client1 posted just looks like regular motion blur, but when viewed on our (faulty???) H77s, the effect turns into the "Clay-motion" look as discussed earlier. On a CRT monitor, it looks like it should look, normal motion blur caused by images in motion.

Like I said previously, you can't possibly capture the effect in a still camera shot because the image MUST be in motion to see the result.

I guess it can be sort of described like this:

If you made a moving cartoon of a man walking across the screen horizontally. For it to look like he's in smooth motion, you would need like 30 different cartoon still images for it to appear smooth as they flipped through. With ours, it looks like they only used about 15 or so, so the image kind of jerks across, stopping temporarily at each frame, adding a dark line around edges, as well as blurring the details into a flat cartoony watercolor look in things like the faces, etc.

When it's done properly, it should blend the frames somewhat so it looks like smooth motion, but causing some blurriness as his pictures represents and what's seen on a CRT.

God I hope they give me that FW soon:(!!!

You mean like in this disscussion?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468975

I can try the motorcyle guy scene on two projectors, but I'll bet it will play the same. I don't think any firmware is going to do away with motion dither on our 1chips.

If it plays differently I'll let you know.

Dave Harper

11-17-04, 04:13 PM

No, as I have said before it is a different issue and mainly shows up with HD. Not standard motion dither.

Fishhooks

11-17-04, 05:43 PM

It's not a tweak, it's a setting where you choose the color space of the BNC and/or the RCA component inputs. You can set it to YUV (component), RGB or AUTO to auto select.
Dave.

Thanks Dave; So this setting really does not present with the current motion topics being discussed!

guitarman

11-17-04, 06:57 PM

I watched a couple of HD football games and a couple of HD movies last weekend, never saw any problems with motion.

guitarman

11-17-04, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by jello
@Cilent1:

sure i can get rid of the greenish look, but it does not help on the banding/contouring issue.

im gonna re-calibrate when theres a fix for the contouring problem, and its for sure that calibration alone does not fix the problem...

waiting for the HC2000 fix.

tom, did you check the chapter3 u571 panning motion problem ?

thanks.
I'll check out the scene tonight. Took a look at your u571contour shot and it doesn't show severe contour. Not like this PAL machine.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/palcontour.jpg

Dave Harper

11-17-04, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Fishhooks
Thanks Dave; So this setting really does not present with the current motion topics being discussed!

No, it does not.

Tom,

Thanks for checking again with HD. That just makes me realize more and more that I must have a faulty unit...again:(!!!

guitarman

11-18-04, 02:37 PM

I checked chap3 of u571 for panning. It played a little better on my RGB/RGB machine. Still a little choppy and pretty lousy on both machines. But just the very first second as the motorcycle guy appears. After the first second the rest of the movement looks good. Source problem there both DLPs will show it choppy and not like how you see it on a CRT as just a blur.

jello

11-19-04, 05:13 AM

thanks for checking, tom.

bad news from the mits support front, to be more specific: japanese technical staff.

the problem has to do with the wheel (ok, we knew that already). but the video is treated with only 8-bit !!!
they dont know when a fix will be avalable for the hc2000.
my ht dealer thinks there will be no fix at all, since the tech. design of the model is too bad!

8 bit ! with video ? puuh.

but what about the fix for the optoma? if its for real why cant it be ported. hm..

Dave Harper

11-19-04, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by jello
...the problem has to do with the wheel (ok, we knew that already). but the video is treated with only 8-bit !!!
they dont know when a fix will be avalable for the hc2000.
my ht dealer thinks there will be no fix at all, since the tech. design of the model is too bad!

8 bit ! with video ? puuh.

but what about the fix for the optoma? if its for real why cant it be ported. hm..

That would explain a lot if that's also the case with the H77:eek:!!!

Gary Lightfoot

11-19-04, 06:40 PM

Yes, it certainly would.

It says in the spec somewhere that it's 10bit, which makes the posterisation all the more surprising. It should be less (even non existent) compared to other machines that are without it.

Edit: Just another thought:

Considering that some higher end pj manufacturers like Sim2 don't use an 8 segment colour wheel, yet can still produce a very smooth and colour accurate image (one of the very best IMHO), it does make me wonder if we really need it. If we can increase the DMDs RGB modulation time/range by turning off the green segments, we may see the posterisation all but dissapear.

Gary.

danielo

11-20-04, 12:55 PM

Hai,

Well i got my H77 (c14) on friday, replaced the mount and we are up and running.

Overal all seems ok but i still had some colorbanding when driving it both at 50hz and 60hz. after trying the effect of just about all the non service menu buttons could not really fix it. The effects on
u571 was not that bad but on some of the wm9 HD clips it was. The fix seems to be to change the colorwheel index from 33 to 29.

Since ive not seen anyone post images of this i put a few online with the service model so you can see whats going on. u571 is on component 50p from a denon 2900. the wm9 from a htpc at 1280x720x60hz. Sorry that images overal are bad,only Tom seems to know the art of taking screenshots. The images on setting 33 don't look that bad in these screenshots but trust me in real life they look more like the setting on 38.

broken : http://www.submarine.nl/mmbase/daniel/ht/images/h77/wm9_cwi38.jpg
fixed : http://www.submarine.nl/mmbase/daniel/ht/images/h77/wm9_cwi29.jpg

more settings and u571 examples at :

http://www.submarine.nl/mmbase/daniel/ht/images/h77/

So was it ok to change the cwi or is there some other magic way.

Daniel.

guitarman

11-20-04, 02:45 PM

Wing told me if a signal is showing some contour that usually just lowering the CWI a few numbers will fix it and yes it's ok to try. I also see the new NGD option and this is there for contour also plus it could have some use when your bulb ages. Take a look at what options are there for NDG, how many number choices?

Looks like the sweet spot for your machine is 29. Those tuff sequence shots are looking very good now.

guitarman

11-20-04, 03:43 PM

Daniel, again your more than ok with the fixed contouring but your gray patterns need fixing.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray1.jpg

First bring up the Avia gray pattern and toggle the color temp settings to find the one that makes better grays (you have blue bias) probably color temp 1.

After you've found which is the best color temp keep the gray pattern up. Go into the user Advanced RGB adjustments.

You may still see some blue so lower the Blue-contrast and Blue-brightness until you see blacks and grays (no blue tint).

You might try to balance things. If you had to lower blue to say minus 10 stop and make that just minus 5 and increase the opposite colors (Green & Red) by a similar amount maybe plus 5.
Lmk how it goes? After your fifth element image should like close to this.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg

danielo

11-20-04, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by guitarman
Daniel, again your more than ok with the fixed contouring but your gray patterns need fixing.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77gray1.jpg

First bring up the Avia gray pattern and toggle the color temp settings to find the one that makes better grays (you have blue bias) probably color temp 1.

After you've found which is the best color temp keep the gray pattern up. Go into the user Advanced RGB adjustments.

You may still see some blue so lower the Blue-contrast and Blue-brightness until you see blacks and grays (no blue tint).

You might try to balance things. If you had to lower blue to say minus 10 stop and make that just minus 5 and increase the opposite colors (Green & Red) by a similar amount maybe plus 5.
Lmk how it goes? After your fifth element image should like close to this.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg

Well you seem to be the master at making screenshots, for some reason i just can't het them to look anything like whats on the screen. But i can asure you my gray bars are about the same as yours and nowhere as blue as in my screenshots (i guess you looked in http://www.submarine.nl/mmbase/daniel/ht/images/h77/grays/). They colortemp for me was 2 (pal?) and it then had a little red push that i removed using the advance menu. Just to be complete i now have :

colortemp 2
advanced colors :

rc -3
bc 2
gc 2

rb -3
gb 2
bb 2

(default factory from service menu)

gain red 125
gain green 116
gain blue 130

bias red 116
bias green 122
bias blue 119

Thanks for the feedback ill pop in 5th element superbit and see how close i am to your image :).

the ndg option can be 0 and 1 and well it doesn't do anything for me im guessing 0 is off and 1 is on,default in c14 is on but i didn't see any great effects on 0.

btw whats with the weird bulb numbers, the normal menu has 1 (higher number) and the service menu has 2 one i guess is the real bulb (running to 2000h?) the other display total time upto max 3000 ?

I know you have been asked before but you should make a small doc on how you create these perfect screenshots mine look weird and get weird sparkes all over.

Greetings,

Daniel.

guitarman

11-20-04, 05:44 PM

Best you can do is take them at night with an all dark room. Set the camera to a night mode if it has one for a slower shutter speed. Your advanced color settings look good for deleting the red, the adjustments needed were only slight.

The double bulb settings are probably a tabulation, I figure the difference between using the bright mode and normal mode. Notice you'll get two sets of bulb numbers in the user system menu. One if you have bright on and a different clock for normal.

I did a reset on my machine so the numbers are back to zero. I was and am having a problem with the projector being ceiling mounted. This is wierd, if I run it table mounted I'll get no bulb error sequence from the LED's. If I ceiling mount it will shut down in two minutes showing the steady Red and flashing blue LED.

I already put a call in to the tech and told him I'd be doing more testing for heat ventilation etc. So far only a table mount will work, the tech said he'd get me another bulb. I'm not worried I'm still getting a hands down knock out punch picture. :)

GetGray

11-20-04, 06:18 PM

WHATS THAT!!?? Hold the press, Guitarman said something about the H77 that wasn't absolute praise <great big smile>. Sorry Tom, I couldn't resist. I'm sure they'll get it worked out for you. Mine's hanging with a modified Vogel mount that I like a lot and hasn't had any problems yet. Cheers, Scott

Cilent1

11-20-04, 06:36 PM

I was and am having a problem with the projector being ceiling mounted.
LOL! Scott, I kinda chuckled when I read that also. Just messing with ya Tom. How many hours do you have on the lamp now? Have you switched to hi brightness most of the time? What is the latest firmware version now, C12 or C14? I've been talking to Arun in tech support. He has answered many of my questions and the support offered by Optoma seems to be top notch. Nice to know if you have a problem that they will take care of you.

guitarman

11-20-04, 06:49 PM

You see I am an honest man, riiiight ;)

I'm over 700hrs now and still use the Normal bulb setting.

Usually anything coming new from Taiwan will have the latest number, C14. Anytime you have to send the PJ it it will also get the latest firmware. C12 s/b ok for USA owners, C08 is still good for mine, though I'd like the better Letterbox support of C12 of C14.

This is an oddball problem. I'm thinking it's gravity related. Never liked gravity anyway.

Cilent1

11-20-04, 07:06 PM

Tom, have you tried taking out the lamp and re-inserting it? My HS20 lamp acted flaky when I ceiling mounted it, once I re-seated the lamp the problem went away.

When you say Normal bulb setting, is that the Hi or Low. What is the default setting from the factory?

guitarman

11-20-04, 07:15 PM

Normal is the lower brightness setting. I've reseated the bulb several times. I literally had the bulb shut down 5 times in a row and every time I put the projector on a table it worked flawlessly. Then I'd put it back up on the ceiling and a minute later the bulb would go off and error lights appear.

I've also checked the rocker switch thats there when you remove the cover. Wing told me if the rocker switch wasn't working correctly the bulb would never start up at all, so it's not that.

Also I ran the projector on the table upside down and it would shut off in two minutes. Just maybe the fans aren't working to their maximum with the PJ inverted (gravity once again). It would shut down in bright mode also, I thought maybe the higher speed of the Bright mode would help, but nope.

I'm probably the first ever to have this odd problem where the projector wants to be right side up. Maybe it's alive! :)

danielo

11-20-04, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by guitarman
Normal is the lower brightness setting. I've reseated the bulb several times. I literally had the bulb shut down 5 times in a row and every time I put the projector on a table it worked flawlessly. Then I'd put it back up on the ceiling and a minute later the bulb would go off and error lights appear.

I've also check the rocker switch thats there when you remove the cover. Wing told me if the rocker switch wasn't working correctly the bulb would never start up at all, so it's not that.

Also I ran the projector on the table upside down and it would shut off in two minutes. Just maybe the fans aren't working to their maximum with the PJ inverted (gravity once again). It would shut down in bright mode also, I thought maybe the higher speed of the Bright mode would help, but nope.

Well this will probably not help but someone has to put a positive spin to this problem if it can't be Tom it better be me :). I have been doing a burn in test on the H77 ceiling mounted it and it has now been running 14hours.

Daniel.

guitarman

11-20-04, 07:44 PM

Are you trying to blow it up? I thought 8hrs was a maximum run.

Andrea Manuti

11-20-04, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Fishhooks
jfinneru:

Would be interested in your opinion on the comparisons with the PD Action mk11.
I see you like the 1080i deinterlacing better, but have you noted other differences.
I think Andrea Manuti has a test on the Action coming soon as well.

YES... ;)
It will be online in the free section on HTProjectors' website maybe tomorrow.
And a mini shoot-out PD Action! vs. InFocus 7205 will be following shortly!

Fishhooks

11-21-04, 06:30 PM

Thanks Andrea, now though I think a mk111 Action is rolling out, according to another thread!

Andrea Manuti

11-22-04, 05:50 PM

Yes, Fishhooks, I know!
When we'll have the chance to compare measures in default and calibrated conditions, and take a look at some actual shots from screen, I guess we'll have a fair good comparison! ;)

Direct link to this test: http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectorsENG/preload.asp?ID=253&PROD=2693

Fishhooks

11-22-04, 07:58 PM

In keeping with this thread (H77) I won't say too much other than what a great review Andrea.

This confirms my own "straight -out-of-the-box" findings, with no calibration tools available, except near 40 years of playing with film and television picture tweaking and matching.

Tom seems equally impressed with the H77 and gets as enthusiastic as I do about these machines. Would really like to see the Action and H77 in a shootout.

Perhaps amazingly though, I still have no trouble in firing the NEC HT-1100 up and being able to make this cheap 4:3 poor relation behave in comparison to these latest HD2+ offerings.
To enjoy a great well-shot movie on either the Action or 1100 is a pleasurable experience with not a significant amount of difference in enjoyment ratio.
Sorry if that's a too "way-out" statement for some of the members here, but I'll stand by it 100%!

guitarman

11-22-04, 09:33 PM

I've been up and running all weekend ok, I rigged up a ceiling shelf to accommodate the fact my H77 will surely stay on when table mounted. :)

Andrea does very well with his reviews, I go there every week or so to see what's new. Hope he gets an H77.

Cilent1

11-22-04, 09:33 PM

Tom, did you ever figure out your ceiling mount problem? Arun says that the latest firmware is C16.

...never mind. I see we posted at the same time :p Are you planning to send your unit in? Curious to know what is different with version C16.

Andrea Manuti

11-22-04, 09:41 PM

Thanks, guys|
I hope too to get an H77 very soon... ;)

guitarman

11-22-04, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Cilent1
Tom, did you ever figure out your ceiling mount problem? Arun says that the latest firmware is C16.

...never mind. I see we posted at the same time :p Are you planning to send your unit in? Curious to know what is different with version C16.

First I'll see if another bulb fixes it. I'll see if Wing has info on C16.

GetGray

11-22-04, 10:40 PM

Tom:

With as may iterations of firmware that's coming out, I sure wish they'd document a procedure for a self load. Surely the color parameters wouldn't change that much. Maybe some loads could be done without a recalibration - like a IR code only update - if you recorded all your parameters prior.

Have you heard whether or not they have the discrete codes for the power and/or screen format yet? My new remote is hungry for them. But it sure sucks to have to send the PJ off on a 6000 mile round trip inthe back of multiple trucks to get it :(

Asl long as I'm wishing, any word on getting Smallcombe a PJ to get the Smart III thingy going for us?

Cheers,
Scott

new_avfan

11-22-04, 10:59 PM

A couple of questions for Tom/other H77 owners:

1) Could someone post a complete set of the pj settings after calibration- I know there were some out there a while ago but this thread is getting really long
2) Has anyone had a problem where the unit, when first turned on cold, goes immediately into overtemp mode (orange light) and has to be cycled on/off to get it to work?

Thanks!

Dave Harper

11-22-04, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by new_avfan
A couple of questions for Tom/other H77 owners:

2) Has anyone had a problem where the unit, when first turned on cold, goes immediately into overtemp mode (orange light) and has to be cycled on/off to get it to work?

Thanks!

Yes, I have had that happen about three times so far.

Tom, If you could let me know if c16 is out that would be great.

Scott, I have the loader programs and it is very easy to do. I don't know why they don't let people do it themselves. Maybe to cover themselves they could make you sign a waiver or something? The four times I did the FW update all the settings stayed the same.

guitarman

11-22-04, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by scotthorton
Tom:

With as may iterations of firmware that's coming out, I sure wish they'd document a procedure for a self load. Surely the color parameters wouldn't change that much. Maybe some loads could be done without a recalibration - like a IR code only update - if you recorded all your parameters prior.

Have you heard whether or not they have the discrete codes for the power and/or screen format yet? My new remote is hungry for them. But it sure sucks to have to send the PJ off on a 6000 mile round trip inthe back of multiple trucks to get it :(

Asl long as I'm wishing, any word on getting Smallcombe a PJ to get the Smart III thingy going for us?

Cheers,
Scott

The firmwares are a guarded subject, they don't want the work to fall into the wrong hands so it will always be a factory deal. I asked about Steve and they didn't seem too receptive on sending out an H77 to him. Wing did say if he could take the time he could setup some discrete codes, but they got busy with two new models and the firmware for PAL machines. I'll remind him after the holidays.

NiToNi

11-23-04, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by guitarman
The firmwares are a guarded subject, they don't want the work to fall into the wrong hands

Like Mitsubishi's... :D

Seriously though, that's silly and only causes downtime and hassle for the owner. Arguably, the firmware isn't exactly world class either... (vs. for example Yamaha DPX-1100's)...

PD otoh lets you download and update the latest version via RS232 or USB yourself. Cool and simple...

jello

11-23-04, 08:04 AM

@NiToNi:

do you have any information about new mitsubishi firmwares regarding HC2000 banding problem ?

at the moment im argueing wth my ht dealer and mitsubishi, because none of them wants to take the HC2000 back or even trade it in for eg. a HC900.
thats kinda annoying, zero customer service, this pj is faulty as is, and has to be taken back or replaced with a working one.

guitarman

11-23-04, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by NiToNi
Like Mitsubishi's... :D

Seriously though, that's silly and only causes downtime and hassle for the owner. Arguably, the firmware isn't exactly world class either... (vs. for example Yamaha DPX-1100's)...

PD otoh lets you download and update the latest version via RS232 or USB yourself. Cool and simple...

Info I got about firmware is licensing between the company vs Ti, vs pixelworks etc, won't allow them to put it up for public download.

SJHT

11-23-04, 11:38 AM

Seems like SIM also makes firmware available to their customers.....

guitarman

11-23-04, 03:05 PM

I needed a firmware update on my Sim HT200 a couple of years back and had to send it to them, maybe they've changed.

Guinan

11-23-04, 06:33 PM

See also Infocus...use pixelworks, Ti and Faroudja chipsets in their projector range. I happily upgraded my 7200 with upgraded firmwares. Find the excuse they give hard to believe (though believed the recalibration excuse better).

Sim2 allow their dealers to upgrade their firmware, but usually in my experience once the dealer realises you know more than he does about the job he is usually happy to let you do it ;) Used to own a HT200DM too.

My H77 has beeen back with Optoma UK for a week now for its banding fix and is still 'on the bench' according to them...not at my happiest.

Regards,

Ian Guinan

Gary Lightfoot

11-23-04, 07:34 PM

Hi Ian,

Did you see Danielo's cwi tip for reducing posterisation in the other thread?

Gary.

guitarman

11-23-04, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by jello
@NiToNi:

do you have any information about new mitsubishi firmwares regarding HC2000 banding problem ?

at the moment im argueing wth my ht dealer and mitsubishi, because none of them wants to take the HC2000 back or even trade it in for eg. a HC900.
thats kinda annoying, zero customer service, this pj is faulty as is, and has to be taken back or replaced with a working one.

You'll have to keep bugging them to work on the firmware. Ofcourse the NTSC HC2000's aren't having a problem but you PAL owners need a fix. Get your friends together and keep bugging them for the fix.

guitarman

11-25-04, 01:41 PM

Happy Thanksgiving Day H77 club. Traditional fat Turkey and what else, a super High Def picture on the H77 with NFL games. Right now the Colts are up 13 to 6. I'm tired of Manning winning all the time, go Detroit. :)
enjoy

Messiah

11-25-04, 02:23 PM

I wish I could see the moving black and white bars on mine when running Avia. It's really annoying me. Using a Denon 3910 connected via HDMI>DVI. :mad:

Cilent1

11-25-04, 02:46 PM

Have you tried hooking it up without the HDMI, and using DVI out to DVI on the H77? Maybe the HDMI conversion is causing mis-match problems with the DVI levels.

To those who eat Turkey today, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

guitarman

11-25-04, 02:50 PM

It's not seeing the right voltage from the connection. You could try lowering the RGB-brightness levels in the advanced adjustments, or even some of the service menu RGB area's. Write down the original service numbers.

But you do see the bars with component. Another thing you could set your blacks and white with the THX optimizer for peace of mind for now, until you figure out the voltage problem with the cable or dvd player.

Messiah

11-25-04, 02:59 PM

I'll do that, thanks. Unfortunately though the unit is also much noisier since coming back from the firmware upgrade so I may send it back again to be looked at further.

Guinan

11-25-04, 03:01 PM

Tom,

With our PAL models I've noticed that even with the THX logo screen on the Optimizer you cannot see the drop shadow over DVI. Is visible over component. Would be interested to hear what owners of the newer PAL models see with Avia and the THX screens over DVI.

Mine is still not back so haven't had a chance to have a tweak with anything....will let you know when I get it back.

Regards,

Ian Guinan

jfinneru

11-25-04, 03:08 PM

regarding 3910, I have noticed a bug with it. even when you set hdmi/dvi to normal and not enhanced it jumps to enhanced (itstill reads normal in the menu) change it to enhanced and then back to normal. then all bars should be visible. also if that doesn't help, adjust the brightness in the player instead of in the pj.

guitarman

11-25-04, 03:48 PM

Good find, I guess enhanced vs normal relates to blacks like the darker/lighter feature on analog players.

Guinan

11-25-04, 04:09 PM

You guessed it...I'm using a Denon 3910 (as is Messiah and many others). Will have a play when I get my H77 back.

Ian Guinan

Messiah

11-25-04, 05:04 PM

Done lots of playing tonight.

Connected the 3910 to the H77 via DVI (10m Lindy DVI cable) rather than using the HDMI to DVI lead into the DVI switcher). At first there was no difference but then I started playing about with the Normal/Enhamced setting in the 3910 menu. It made no difference at all at first no matter how many times I switched between them but then, for absolutely no reason, the black bars appeared and remained visible even after exiting the menu. Adjusted Brightness to -3 and thought "fantastic. No idea why it's started working but happy that it is".

For interest, this is exactly how I remember it happening when I first paired these two together, so still none the wiser as to why.

I then disconnected the DVI lead and plugged it back in to the switcher and changed the DVD player to output via HDMI. Lost the black bars again. So, it would appear to be something to do with the HDMI output.

I then went back in to the setup menu and fiddled some more with no luck. However, I then went in to the PIcture Settings menu on the 3910 and switched from 0IRE to 7.5IRE and lo and behold the bars appear.

I am wondering, as the AVIA disc is an NTSC disc whether the Denon is more (or less?) accurate than my previous players like the 868 and therefore needs to have the IRE level set according to the format of the disc. I have no way of proving this as I do not have the same test patterns in PAL format but maybe someone else, more technically minded than me, would like to comment on my findings.

At least I have found the 3910 can show the moving bars :)

Dave Harper

11-26-04, 01:47 AM

Bytehoven

11-26-04, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by guitarman
Good find, I guess enhanced vs normal relates to blacks like the darker/lighter feature on analog players.

The enhanced/normal settings relate to 0-255 PC versus 16-235 video for digital grayscale levels. These choices are designed to remap the digital video levels for what the projector is expecting. The enhanced setting remaps the normal video levels of 16-235 to 0-245, leaving a little head room to avoid crushing whites.

The recommended setting in other forum threads, has been Normal and 0 IRE, and then adjust the projector to get the black level calibration correct. That's what I was using on the HT1000 with the 2910.

alantkh

11-26-04, 09:02 AM

Messiah,

I think I read some blacker than black bug about the HDMI output of the 3910. Maybe you should read up on the 3910 threads. I was thinking of getting the 3910 then I found out the my local 3910 has a chroma delay bug on the DVI out and the hdmi output has the above mentioned bug.

Messiah

11-26-04, 12:58 PM

OK thanks. Easily fixed as will just get another DVI-DVI lead over the weekend. Strange why the HTPC is the same though as that is connected via DVI :confused:

Hugh_DaMann

11-26-04, 01:43 PM

My experiences mirror many of those that are being discussed. After lots of twiddling, I now have the 3910 feeding the H77 via a HDMI to DVI cable and can see the THX drop shadow just fine. I initially could not see the drop shadow with the 3910 Normal, 0 IRE combination, but the problem seems to be gone. Unfortunately, I do not know what combination of settings and fiddling lead to this. I have noticed that not all changes that are made on the 3910 take effect immediately, which is very curious.

I did a comparison between a DVI-DVI connection to the HDMI-DVI one, and I could not see a discernable difference between the two with my current settings. I do not believe that I am experiencing black crush on my HDMI-DVI connection. Kris Deering suggested that this may be an issue with the 3910 a few months ago, but I have not seen anything from Kris since then regarding this. The Secrets site has not put up its review of the 3910 yet. Maybe they will have more to say on this when this report is posted.

My only dissapointment with the H77 thus far is that I wish that it were brighter. I find that I am lacking detail in the shadow regions. I have been playing with various brightness and contrast combinations using both the 3910 and H77 settings and have not found a combination that I am really happy with yet. Setting the H77 gamma setting to 4 has helped in this respect, and going to high lamp output definitely helps, but then you have to put up with the fan noise. I am now trying to tweak the 3910 gamma curve to see if that helps. This is on a 100" Firehawk, so I don't think that I am asking too much of the pj.

Messiah

11-26-04, 01:52 PM

Thanks Hugh. I will keep fiddling with the 3910 settings then in the hope that it will suddenly 'come good' :)

As to shadow detail, this is the only real downer I have with the H77 when compared to my previous S3. Right from the start I said shadow detail was not as good. However, I have been happy to live with that to get the brighter and quitere pj.

guitarman

11-26-04, 02:40 PM

You might try gamma 3.

I get better black detail with my JVC player. I took these Harry Potter shots yesterday using the JVC in interlaced letting the PJ's scaler deinterlacer do the work. First two show some green in the background, not sure whether that's just the way the scene was or not.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hp2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hp3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hp4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hp5.jpg

Hugh_DaMann

11-27-04, 11:40 AM

To put things into perspective, I took my family to see "The Incredibles" yesterday and I must say that the the experience was less than satisfying. The movie is really very good and I highly recommend it, but the theater and the quality of the image were very disappointing. This being a holdiay weekend, the theater was packed. It also did not look like they had cleaned the place in a week. The previews were so blurry and dark, that they were practically unwatchable. The feature was better, but the image was definitely inferior to what I get with the H77.

I find that I am getting spoiled with the great image from the H77 and now I am tweaking it to get as much as possible from this unit. I suspect that even if I had a Qualia, I would still be trying to get more. So even though I complain about missing detail in shadows, this projector provides a wonderful image and I have no problem getting into a movie and forgetting about looking for faults once the movie is going.:D

GetGray

11-27-04, 11:53 AM

What he said. I had the identical experience and opinion when going to see Incredibles. I'm really enjoying having mine. My wife said, "but we arent' going to stop going to the theater at all are we?", I said "well no, but for many, you can take the kids, I'd wait for the DVD" :D

guitarman

11-27-04, 12:56 PM

The H77 has a very powerfull image. The extra green segments turn off the dithering in blacks and black are increased. My family viewed Harry Potter 3 this week at home and it was a perfect experience for sound & vision. It doesn't get much better than this. Plus we got the brightness if we need it. Who would believe the lowest priced HD2+ might just be the best.

Dave Harper

11-27-04, 02:13 PM

Yeah, but it sucks on pans:(!!!

guitarman

11-27-04, 03:31 PM

Naah, the pans are fine for me. Pans the same way as my other DLP. HDTV & DVD.

Lets hope the firmware clears up what ever you're seeing. But after getting two machines and a firmware it doesn't look good. What are you going to do if C16 doesn't help?

ChrisWiggles

11-27-04, 04:10 PM

Messiah,

You should not have 7.5 IRE setup on DVDs, whether NTSC or not, especially through component and DVI/HDMI connections. If you use composite or "S" you may have setup added depending on the player but it should NOT be there with YPbPr, RGBHV, DVI and/or HDMI.

If you are having to put the black level to 7.5 IRE to see the black lines, something's wrong.

This is *incorrect* information.

The presence of NTSC setup for a 7.5 IRE output for analog connections is NOT "not preferred." Neither 0 or 7.5 is de-facto preferred. It is merely a setup option to match voltages for different video standards. In a properly designed source and playback chain that has been properly calibrated, both would appear *identical.*

If you are having to put the black level to 7.5 IRE to see the black lines, something's wrong.

If you have to put your player to 7.5 IRE mode to prevent the clipping of image data, put it there, then calibrate. It means that something is wrong in the design of the unit when in 0IRE mode.

Note that competent design would make the IRE setup option ONLY affect the analog outputs (often it also affects the digital outputs), and regardless of IRE setting on the analog outputs, the player would maintain BTB data, in a correctly designed player. This is rarely the case.

guitarman

11-27-04, 04:27 PM

Very good, he's just lucky using 7.5 will put the signal at a correct voltage. Thanks for chiming in.

Messiah

11-27-04, 04:39 PM

Well, it would appear I have fixed it :) Bought a DVI-DVI cable today and am now using the DVI output from the 3910. All is well. Black and white bars now visible.

It would appear that there is indeed something awry with the HDMI output but likely only when converting from HDMI > DVI as I was. Now very happy and in the process of watching Troy. Fantastic picture and pans are not at all bad.

I still do not believe shadow detail or pans are as good as my S3 but I always knew there would be a compromise in order to get the quieter pj I hankered after. As I have said previously, I now have the quieter pj and a brighter image albeit at the expense of some shadow detail and smoothness of pans. I think for the price difference I can live with it :)

Roll on the new HC room :D

ChrisWiggles

11-27-04, 04:43 PM

I thought, also, that he was using a digital output, so voltages are not a concern, however it seems that the IRE setup option, which is to set the presence of the NTSC voltage pedestal for ANALOG signals, is also affecting the digital output. Since the 0IRE setting seems to be clipping data over the digital output, you certainly will want to avoid that.

I would use a full-range-data pattern such as the deep sweeps or ramps in Avia Pro, or the DVE ramps pattern ( i think it's like chapter 14 or so, and the one right after it too, has a slightly above black, to below black bar sweep), to test the settings to see the degree to which you are clipping data in various settings, and use the settings which maintain the most data, preferably all of it. If the 0 IRE setting is clipping the data over digital outpus, then avoid it if the other one is behaving properly and maintaining the full data. Then go on to calibrate your display.

Cilent1

11-27-04, 04:44 PM

ChrisWiggles thanks for all the information you've provided regarding the DVI levels issue (PC vs. Video levels). Based on what I've read in your posts over on the DVD forum, is it correct to assume that if a PJ's DVI input is "expecting" PC levels (0-255, like the H77), and I have DVI sources that have options such as "enhance" that will change the output to match PC levels; I should still keep the DVI source outputting Video levels and calibrate the PJ's DVI input to match?

Do any of the THX optimizer patterns have BTB data? Or just DVE? I know Avia does not.

ChrisWiggles

11-27-04, 05:07 PM

Client: If for some reason a display has no method of adjusting brightness and contrast, and it's calibrated to display PC-levels properly, then you should feed it PC levels, but I would certainly hesitate from purchasing such a crippled display, as it forces you to feed it a degraded video signal.

And yes, usually the "normal/enhanced" option is the toggle for Video/PC levels when usign digital outputs.

If your display has adjustments, which it certainly should, then you should maintain Video levels when using a digital connection, and calibrate your display to that properly using a calibration disc such as Avia.

Do any of the THX optimizer patterns have BTB data? Or just DVE? I know Avia does not.

I believe THX discs do contain BTB data, however, THX discs may or may not be correct, so I would avoid them, plus they only have a couple patterns which I don't find useful. Avia Pro and DVE have BTB and peak white data in their patterns. Avia Pro is significantly more comprehensive and useful in patterns, but is geared towards professionals in terms of the huge number of patterns, and price.

Bytehoven

11-27-04, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Cilent1
ChrisWiggles thanks for all the information you've provided regarding the DVI levels issue (PC vs. Video levels). Based on what I've read in your posts over on the DVD forum, is it correct to assume that if a PJ's DVI input is "expecting" PC levels (0-255, like the H77), and I have DVI sources that have options such as "enhance" that will change the output to match PC levels; I should still keep the DVI source outputting Video levels and calibrate the PJ's DVI input to match?

Do any of the THX optimizer patterns have BTB data? Or just DVE? I know Avia does not.

I have checked the newer THX patterns and they have correct digital info, including BTB. And it appears these THX patterns ARE NOT varied to conform with the specific content on the DVD. I found THX patterns on a dozen different movies to be identical when checked on a waveform.

The older THX patterns that did not have the THX shadow, may not be as trustworthy. But all off the new patterns I had in my library checked out fine and would be a reliable al beit limited source for calibration.

The THX patterns on the Starwars Trilogy and Indiana Jones Trilogy, are examples of perfectly good calibration patterns.

Cilent1

11-27-04, 05:27 PM

ChrisWiggles and Bytehoven. Thanks for that info. Very helpful ;) .

Tom, did you ever find out what is different with fw version C16?

ChrisWiggles

11-27-04, 06:26 PM

bythoven, I do trust your measurements, however, trusted people in the past have told me that the THX patterns did have blacks encoded at values other than 16 for instance, so maybe the new patterns are all the same, but it's not really worth my consideration since Avia, DVE, and Avia Pro are so much more comprehensive and useful, and we can be CERTAIN that they are correct.

guitarman

11-27-04, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Cilent1
ChrisWiggles and Bytehoven. Thanks for that info. Very helpful ;) .

Tom, did you ever find out what is different with fw version C16?

I agree with Bytehoven that the THX patterns are ok to use in a pinch at least until the user gets Avia. :)

C16 is just another add on for PAL users with severe contour. I never had serious contour problems and I'm still good with C08.

ot, Hey I'm viewing the Marathon Man DVD at my shop today. Now this is a pure class movie, excellent background music, great story, acting etc. They just don't make them this good any more. " is it safe! "

Trivia, the Puerto Rican guy Melendez that called Dustin Hoffman Twinkle Toes. This guy had a charisma that was going to take him some where in the movie bizz, until they found out he was wanted for Murder and went to jail instead. Tuff break, he might have ended up living in Bel air instead of upstate New York.

Bytehoven

11-27-04, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
bythoven, I do trust your measurements, however, trusted people in the past have told me that the THX patterns did have blacks encoded at values other than 16 for instance, so maybe the new patterns are all the same, but it's not really worth my consideration since Avia, DVE, and Avia Pro are so much more comprehensive and useful, and we can be CERTAIN that they are correct.

I agree, as I have DVE and AVIA in my collection.

But someone who only has a current THX test pattern on something like Star Wars... they can be assured that THX test pattern will properly indicate both the proper calibration for BTB as well as calibrating the white end. Although I really dig the AVIA moving white bars for setting white clipping.

Dave Harper

11-28-04, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by DHarp193
Messiah,

You should not have 7.5 IRE setup on DVDs, whether NTSC or not, especially through component and DVI/HDMI connections. If you use composite or "S" you may have setup added depending on the player but it should NOT be there with YPbPr, RGBHV, DVI and/or HDMI.

If you are having to put the black level to 7.5 IRE to see the black lines, something's wrong.

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
This is *incorrect* information.

The presence of NTSC setup for a 7.5 IRE output for analog connections is NOT "not preferred." Neither 0 or 7.5 is de-facto preferred. It is merely a setup option to match voltages for different video standards. In a properly designed source and playback chain that has been properly calibrated, both would appear *identical.*

If you have to put your player to 7.5 IRE mode to prevent the clipping of image data, put it there, then calibrate. It means that something is wrong in the design of the unit when in 0IRE mode.

Note that competent design would make the IRE setup option ONLY affect the analog outputs (often it also affects the digital outputs), and regardless of IRE setting on the analog outputs, the player would maintain BTB data, in a correctly designed player. This is rarely the case.

Actually Mr. Wiggles, that is not wrong info.

A video signal w/ sync is supposed to be 1V p-p and 140 IRE in total.

With M/N NTSC you have 40 IRE for the sync area (0 to -40 IRE), the black level setup area (0 to 7.5 IRE), then the active video area (7.5 to 100 IRE). "If" the DVD was created with black level at 7.5 IRE, then the grey scale steps would be correct with the player set to 7.5 IRE. This should not be the case and DVDs should be made with their active video area from 0 to 100 IRE, not 7.5 to 100 IRE.

If you play a source like a DVD with active video from 0 to 100 IRE with black level setup at 7.5 IRE, I have seen with a scope that one of two things happen depending on the DVD player.

1. The entire video range gets "jacked up" from 0 - 100 IRE to 7.5 - 107.5 IRE, thus clipping the whites that are supposed to top out at 100 IRE.

or...

2. The range from 0 - 100 IRE gets squished into 7.5 - 100 IRE, losing 7.5% of the video's dynamic range and making the grey scale ramps line up in the incorrect spot, like what's supposed to be 0 IRE moves to 7.5 IRE, 10 up to 16.75 IRE, 20 up to 26 IRE, 30 up to 35.25 IRE, 40 up to 44.5 IRE, 50 up to 53.75, 60 up to 63, 70 up to 72.25, 80 up to 81.5, 90 up to 90.75 and finally 100 IRE lands at the only correct spot...100 IRE.

Therefore, your greys will all be off and your dynamic range limited, reducing the final image quality.

If the player does it right, it will add black level setup to the image and recalculate where the grey scale ramps will fall. Unfortunately this is rarely the case and even if it does, you still lose a little dynamic range to your video signal, 7.5% to be exact.

The only reason you'd really want 7.5 IRE as the setting is if the source video was mastered with the black levels at 7.5 IRE and the grey scales adjusted accordingly.

The only reason black level was set to 7.5 IRE was because of when they designed the broadcast B&W M/N standard they noticed a lot of noise and the potential for interference with the video signal from the sync's that were just below 0 IRE, from 0 to -40 IRE. It acted as a buffer zone. NTSC color system is just an overlay of color on the M/N Black and White broadcast video standard.

The technology has gotten so much better and now with DVD players, VHS, Laserdisc and other direct source video devices, black level setup is not needed anymore as that buffer zone and now they can take advantage of the added 7.5% of the video's dynamic range. It's just that DVD and HD are the first technologies to really take advantage of this "enhancement". PAL/SECAM engineers utilized this from the beginning as they never used setup.

Voltage is always 1V p-p (if syncs are included as in the "Y" luminance channel of S-video and/or component), regardless of 7.5 IRE setup, PAL, NTSC, SECAM, ME-SECAM, Japanese NTSC, yadda, yadda, yadda...

M/N NTSC TVs were designed for video with setup, so that's pretty much why when things like VCRs came about, they just made them compatible so it was pretty much plug and play (at first with the RF coax connector set to channel 3/4) without the consumer having to adjust the brightness (black level) on their TV. It's a whole new ball game now with DVD and HD. Why do you think there's so much confusion? People just don't understand why when they set their DVD to 7.5 IRE output, the brightness jumps up. Then they think..."Oh, I'll just adjust the brightness of my TV now, but they've already compromised the output of their player and doing it that way is just "fudging it".

I have vectorscoped these settings I mention and confirmed it all to be true. I am a TV broadcaster and have been for over 10 years. This info is based on fact, not being fooled by playing with settings and calibration DVDs and thinking..."that looks good".

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by DHarp193
Actually Mr. Wiggles, that is not wrong info.

A video signal w/ sync is supposed to be 1V p-p and 140 IRE in total.

With M/N NTSC you have 40 IRE for the sync area (0 to -40 IRE), the black level setup area (0 to 7.5 IRE), then the active video area (7.5 to 100 IRE). "If" the DVD was created with black level at 7.5 IRE, then the grey scale steps would be correct with the player set to 7.5 IRE. This should not be the case and DVDs should be made with their active video area from 0 to 100 IRE, not 7.5 to 100 IRE.

I'm sorry, but it is not incorrect, and your understanding of what IRE is is flawed, leading you to a very common, and convincingly confused amalgamation of digital values an IRE that just simply is not the case.

I cannot strongly enough emphasize how wrong your quote is, and others reading should not take it as possibly correct, or a symantic argument. It is thoroughly incorrect.

1) IRE is *not* synonomous with digital values.

IRE is a unitless representation of ANALOG voltages to represent an ANALOG video waveform. For conceptualization purposes, consider it synonomous with millivolts. IRE should only be used in reference to ANALOG waveforms.

2) This should not be news to you, but DVDs are encoded with discrete digital values. They do not have analog waveforms on them. Thus, refer to #1, and what IRE is, and you realize that *nowhere* on a DVD does IRE come into play. The DVD is encoded with digital steps that run from 1-254 that hold image data. Reference black is encoded at digital 16.

Where a source device outputs black (digital 16) in an analog form is where IRE enters the picture. The values for black are FIXED on the disc, black is black is black, and stays at digital 16 on the disc no matter what you do to the output options.

If a player is conforming to US NTSC standards, which calls for black to be output at 53 mV (or you can call it 7.5 IRE). The full range of digital values should be preserved in a properly designed source and video chain. Note that blacker than black values are in reference to DIGITAL values below 16. They have nothing to do with absolute IRE values. In a video system with black being output at 7.5 IRE, these values will end up being voltages below 7.5 IRE.

If a player is conforming to other standards, such as Japanese NTSC, HD, etc, that outputs black (it is STILL digital 16) at a voltage value of 0 (or 0IRE), the full range of digital values should still be preserved in a proper video chain. Note that here, BTB values will this time fall below 0mV.

Here is a good synopsis of this written by Guy Kuo (Avia, ISF)

1. I think we can safely assume people agree what a volt and millivolt are. For simplicity let's also assume that input and output impedances are 75 ohms and well matched so we don't have to correct for impedances.

2. IRE is well defined in terms of voltage with 140 IRE units in 1 volt. You can express electrical potential in IRE instead of volts if you know that fixed relationship. An IRE is 1/140 volt or approximately 7.142857142857142 mV. A common expectation in NTSC video signal that the positive 100/140 of a 1 volt peak to peak carries the image information, while the negative 40/140 is sync signal.

Black in North American NTSC with 7.5 IRE setup is at 7.5 IRE. 100% White in an image is at 100 IRE. That corresponds to

Black = 7.5 IRE * 1000 mV /140 IRE =~ 53.57 mV
White = 100 IRE * 1000 mV /140 IRE =~ 714.29 mV

If setup is zero as in the case of Japanese NTSC, then black is represented as 0 IRE but white is still represented as 100 IRE. That corresponds to

Black = 0 IRE * 1000 mV /140 IRE = 0 mV
White = 100 IRE * 1000 mV /140 IRE =~ 714.29 mV

If you have properly understood the difference between digital levels and IRE, and how they are very separate things, you will realize how ridiculous your statement is:

"If" the DVD was created with black level at 7.5 IRE, then the grey scale steps would be correct with the player set to 7.5 IRE. This should not be the case and DVDs should be made with their active video area from 0 to 100 IRE, not 7.5 to 100 IRE.

DVDs are *IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM* "encoded" in any way in IRE. They are encoded in DIGITAL VALUES. DVDs have *NO* control over absolute IRE at output. In fact, with the popularity of DVI and digital outputs, IRE may not enter the picture AT ALL in the video chain. Your statement is nonsensical if you come to understand that IREs are a representation of an ANALOG video signal, and are NOT present in absolute values, in any way on the DVD. There are no mV values on the DVD. Period.

To recap: DVDs are encoded in digital values from 1-254, with black at 16. How this is output in analog form (if at all output in analog form), is up to the player. Only then do IRE values enter the picture. Again, a properly designed source will maintain the full range of digital values from 1-254 *REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT OUTPUTS BLACK (digital 16) AT 0IRE OR 7.5 IRE.*

If you play a source like a DVD with active video from 0 to 100 IRE with black level setup at 7.5 IRE, I have seen with a scope that one of two things happen depending on the DVD player.

1. The entire video range gets "jacked up" from 0 - 100 IRE to 7.5 - 107.5 IRE, thus clipping the whites that are supposed to top out at 100 IRE.

or...

2. The range from 0 - 100 IRE gets squished into 7.5 - 100 IRE, losing 7.5% of the video's dynamic range and making the grey scale ramps line up in the incorrect spot, like what's supposed to be 0 IRE moves to 7.5 IRE, 10 up to 16.75 IRE, 20 up to 26 IRE, 30 up to 35.25 IRE, 40 up to 44.5 IRE, 50 up to 53.75, 60 up to 63, 70 up to 72.25, 80 up to 81.5, 90 up to 90.75 and finally 100 IRE lands at the only correct spot...100 IRE.

Therefore, your greys will all be off and your dynamic range limited, reducing the final image quality.

If the player does it right, it will add black level setup to the image and recalculate where the grey scale ramps will fall. Unfortunately this is rarely the case and even if it does, you still lose a little dynamic range to your video signal, 7.5% to be exact.

The only reason you'd really want 7.5 IRE as the setting is if the source video was mastered with the black levels at 7.5 IRE and the grey scales adjusted accordingly.

This statement continues your misunderstandings from before, and hopefully you(and others) have followed my explanation.

With regards to #1: I agree that this is slightly improper design in the player, as it should be doing #2. I.e. white (digital 235) should remain output at 100IRE regardless of whether black is being output at 7.5 or 0. However, any competent display device should have no problem handling slightly elevated IRE values. In fact, if you note that white is at a digital value of 235, there are significant values above that are peak whites, that will extend the video range to above 100IRE normally anyway, and these will be maintained on a CRT display.

For #2) Again, your confusion about what IRE is leads to to this understanding which is incorrect. This is the proper way to handle a 7.5 IRE output. Digital 16 (black) is output at 7.5 IRE, white (digital 235) is output at 100IRE, with peak whites(>235) above 100IRE, and BTB values (<16) falling below 7.5 IRE. You simply calibrate your display device to display 7.5 IRE as black, since this is what black is in this particular situation, and the same goes for white.

If you understand this, you realize that if there is any "decrease" in contrast it is a failure of the user to understand what is going on. If you change the black output, you *MUST* recalibrate your display to match the new voltage outputs, and display black properly, and readjust contrast to maintain proper contrast in your display if necessary.

So please, I urge you to take the time to understand these things, as yours is a very common conclusion on the forums, etc, but it is fundamentally incorrect.

Please see these posts for an even more thorough discussion, and digital values that are encoded in test patterns (NOT IRE!!!!!):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4030461&highlight=7.5+IRE#post4030461

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3306967#post3306967

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418084

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3976955#post3976955

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 03:55 PM

Why do you think there's so much confusion? People just don't understand why when they set their DVD to 7.5 IRE output, the brightness jumps up. Then they think..."Oh, I'll just adjust the brightness of my TV now, but they've already compromised the output of their player and doing it that way is just "fudging it".

Actually, most DVD players will default to US NTSC standards and output black at 7.5 IRE. Users, if they stumble upon an option to change this to 0IRE will see the blacks get darker and think they've made improvements. This is bonkers. You MUST recalibrate your brightness and contrast for the new voltages that your source is outputting. This is the purpose of black level and white level controls, is to match your display to these voltages.

Using a 7.5 IRE output is *NOT* compromising performance, and a user is NOT "fuding" things by calibrating to their source. Hopefully, users ARE doing this, and if they are not, they should.

I have vectorscoped these settings I mention and confirmed it all to be true. I am a TV broadcaster and have been for over 10 years. This info is based on fact, not being fooled by playing with settings and calibration DVDs and thinking..."that looks good".

That's great, but I don't think Stacey Spears, Guy Kuo, and Joe Kane and the dozens of other video professionals are nuts. All I hope you to do is read through my thread, come to understand the difference between IRE and the digital values encoded on the disc (THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTE IRE ON THE DISC!!!!!), and if you don't believe me, please read the explanations that I've linked. As a professional, I hope you are self-critical, and not cast aside my statements as rubbish, for they are certainly not.

If there are things I've missed, or things you think are incorrect in my post, please ask me to clarify, as there are a great deal of issues surrounding the subjects in my post that I have not covered, for the simple reason that I could write many more pages! I'd be happy to clarify further, and please also refer to the linked posts by Guy Kuo and others for some excellent explanations and discussion.

I really hope to innoculate this forum from the continual confusion of IREs, digital levels, black, blacker than black, etc etc etc, and I'd really appreciate if you didn't take these matters lightly.

Thanks!
--Chris

Hugh_DaMann

11-28-04, 05:01 PM

Chris,

Thank you for the explanation. I have a 3910 feeding my H77 with a digital connection. If I switch between 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE on the 3910 (Normal for both cases) I see a definite change in black level. Using the DVE Pluge screen, I can see the BTB bar in both settings, but I have to turn the brightness way up to see it with the 0 IRE setting. Do you know why this is?

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 05:35 PM

I have a 3910 feeding my H77 with a digital connection. If I switch between 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE on the 3910 (Normal for both cases) I see a definite change in black level. Using the DVE Pluge screen, I can see the BTB bar in both settings, but I have to turn the brightness way up to see it with the 0 IRE setting. Do you know why this is?

First, off note that you are using a digital connection. Second, note that IRE should only apply to analog outputs, as it is an ANALOG measurement unit for analog waveforms. The 7.5/0IRE setup does not apply to digital outputs.

Then why does your DIGITAL output change when altering this setup option?

This is due to poor, cost-savings design in your player which is applying image alteration features digitally, rather than as they should be limited to the analog outputs as analog adjustments.

Bytehoven

11-28-04, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
Do you know why this is?

I found the 2910 also did the same thing. Changing the Picture Mode SETUP between 0 & 7.5 IRE altered the DVI black level output. The HMDI/DVI black level NORMAL/EHANCED control only effected the digital output black levels.

We don't know why this the way that it is. Denon included this choice, and it's a choice that might very well come in handy under some specific circumstance.

The desired configuration would be SETUP = 0 IRE and HDMI/DVI Black Level = Normal. Then adjust your display to achieve proper calibration for pluge and white crush/peak. If you have a display expecting to see PC RGB video levels and there is not enough range to properly adjust for pluge, that's when you would want to use the HDMI/DVI Black Level at ENHANCED.

Hugh_DaMann

11-28-04, 06:11 PM

So are you saying that Denon is switching black from digital 16 to another value when I change from IRE 7.5 to IRE 0? I can see why you are "perpetually confused", I am feeling the same.
Please pardon my ignorance, but how does this relate to the brightness setting?

Bytehoven

11-28-04, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Hugh_DaMann
So are you saying that Denon is switching black from digital 16 to another value when I change from IRE 7.5 to IRE 0? I can see why you are "perpetually confused", I am feeling the same.
Please pardon my ignorance, but how does this relate to the brightness setting?

If the black levels on the 2910/3910 DVI output get darker when switching from SETUP 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE, then they are remapping the DVD source digital signal to lower values. Very much like the ENHANCED function, but that also remaps the digital white levels a little higher from 235 to 245.

How much lower I don't know because I don't have a digital waveform.

It relates to your brightness setting, because it is the main brightness and possibly RGB brightness controls that adjust the black level of the video signal in the display.

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 07:25 PM

From my understanding, it is likely that the 7.5 IRE setting is the "proper" default that leaves the digital levels unmessed with.

I would need to test one of these players to see for sure, which I encourage one of you to do using a full-level test pattern from Avia Pro, though DVE may suffice.

The desired configuration would be SETUP = 0 IRE and HDMI/DVI Black Level = Normal.

We do not know this to be the case. It would seem that using the 0IRE output is lowering the digital values in some manner, this is undesired, but someone needs to test for sure. If you are clipping bars in DVE or Avia with 0IRE avoid it for digital output. I'm not psychic, so I don't know what the player is doing unless I can get my hands on one.

Fishhooks

11-28-04, 09:09 PM

The Pioneer 59AVi / 969AVi also changes black level between "0" and "7.5" when using the HDMI output.
I haven't found any situation where the 7.5 setting needs to be used.
Even with the "Enhanced" mode being used, (blacks lowered and whites raised), the 7.5 setting lifts the blacks far too much.

Bytehoven

11-28-04, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
We do not know this to be the case.

Ahhh, Chris...

The 0 IRE setup or NO SETUP, is what should be the standard and only option for a digital output, as you have said your self. The error, in your words, is Denon offering the 7.5 IRE setup thru the digital output, allowing the black levels to have SETUP applied and there by mapping the black levels higher.

The 2910 checked for analog output IRE values performed as expected.

Composite, S-video Component 480i output at SET 7.5 IRE sends a signal with black at 7.5 IRE on the waveform.

Composite, S-video Component 480i output at SETUP 0 IRE sends a signal with black at 0 IRE on the waveform.

Come on Chris, you have been a rock. A steady beacon in the digital signals -vs- analog IRE storm. Don't get all weak in the knee now.

:D

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 09:45 PM

Bytehoven: Sort of.

My point is that the IRE option should *not* have any affect on the digital outputs, since IRE is not involved at all via digital output. There is no analog waveform, there is noe mV value for black on digital output it's all digital. That the IRE setting affects the digital output is design incompetence, or yielding to cost effectiveness. Because of either of these reasons, and because I don't have this player, I don't know which setting leaves the digital values "untouched."

The error, in your words, is Denon offering the 7.5 IRE setup thru the digital output, allowing the black levels to have SETUP applied and there by mapping the black levels higher.

sort of. The error is in having this option affect the digital output at all, as it's a completely unrelated option. We don't exactly know if it's elevating the digital levels and clipping whites, or compressing the range in a 7.5 setting, or the converse, submerging the values with a 0IRE setting. Someone needs to test the unit, or I'll have to get my hands on one.

We don't know which is the case yet, but we DO know that the IRE setup option affecting the digital outputs is cost-efficient poor design.

Bytehoven

11-28-04, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
... but we DO know that the IRE setup option affecting the digital outputs is cost-efficient poor design.

Well, maybe a cost efficient design for the OEM, but not for the $1000 player buyer.

;)

Cilent1

11-28-04, 10:07 PM

For those with the 2910/3910 connected to the H77 via DVI (not a DVI/HDMI conversion, which can introduce it's own set of problems), it seems like the DVD player set to NORMAL and 7.5ire(default setting) should be the correct setting for the Denon. From there use the Optoma's controls to calibrate accordingly.
If I switch between 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE on the 3910 (Normal for both cases) I see a definite change in black level. Using the DVE Pluge screen, I can see the BTB bar in both settings, but I have to turn the brightness way up to see it with the 0 IRE setting.
Hugh, were you referring to the brightness controls of the Denon or the H77? Can you confirm that with the "Normal" and "7.5 IRE" setting (I know Chris, IRE technically only relates to analog signals ;) ) on the Denon that you can still see the BTB bars on DVE? Do your H77 settings vary much from their default configuration with the 2910/3910 setup in this manner?

Sorry to beat this dead horse, but I'm trying to figure out the right setup configuration between the Denon and H77. All my sources are DVI so I don't want to @#ck this up.

Hugh_DaMann

11-28-04, 10:19 PM

I just ran a few tests using DVE title 12, chap 2, DVD Pluge w/gray scale.
Denon 3910 HDMI output to H77 DVI input.
I set my H77 to factory defaults (mode Cinema; contrast 6; Brightness -3, Sharpness 1, Gamma 2)
Denon 3910 setting (HDMI/DVI Black Level Normal; setup level 7.5; contrast 0; brightness 0) NOTE: these are what Denon calls STANDARD settings
With these settings, I can just make out the BTB bar. So far, so good. Default settings on the 3910 and the H77 combined yield good results.

When I move the 3910 setup level to 0 all three bars disappear. If I raise the 3910 brightness level to +12, I recover all three bars. I did not alter the H77 settings or the 3910 contrast level.

I threw in Star Wars - A New Hope and took a look at the THX contrast and brightness tests. Using the standard settings (7.5), both tests passed. Using the second setting, level=0, brightness=+12, I could barely make out the blackest box in the brightness test and it failed the contrast test. A simple adjustment to contrast=-1 on the 3910 passed the contrast test, but the brightness test suffered and I cannot discern a difference between the two blackest boxes unless the contrast is turned back up. Again, this is using the H77 in the default settings. I can pass both THX tests simultaneously if I change the H77 settings.

My conclusion is that the standard setting of Normal 7.5 is the "correct" setting if you believe the factory defaults, but you can compensate with a combination of 3910 and H77 settings if you really want to use 3910 setup level 0. Of course all of this is by eye and I wish that I had the equipment to see what was really going on.

Cilent1

11-28-04, 10:25 PM

THANK YOU, you are "DaMann" Hugh :D . Is there a reason why you are using HDMI instead of DVI directly to the H77? Any way to test DVI to DVI and see if the results are the same?

Carter

11-28-04, 10:25 PM

Tom,

I was visiting the Optoma site and the Sovereign series pops up when choose the H77. According to info on the site the Sovereign series comes with ISF calibration settings already in it. Is this not the case?
I'm sorry if you already covered this, I have not read the whole thread yet.

Hugh_DaMann

11-28-04, 10:33 PM

Silent One,

I am using a HDMI to DVI cable for the convenience of the smaller HDMI connector which fits through my conduit. I pulled the 3910 out and tried testing it connected to the H77 with a 6 foot DVI-DVI cable and could not see a discernable difference compared to the 15 foot HDMI-DVI cable that I am using.

Cilent1

11-28-04, 10:41 PM

Brilliant!, thanks for your efforts Hugh.

ChrisWiggles

11-28-04, 10:45 PM

Hugh, this seems to indicate for me that a 7.5 IRE is a proper default setting when using the digital output, as this leaves BTB unclipped, and should hopefully leave all the digital values as they should be, unmessed with, of course in the Normal setting.

This is limited to this specific player, however.

Hugh_DaMann

11-29-04, 09:23 AM

Tektronix has a nice introduction to IRE levels that I found this morning at:
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/App_Notes/Component_Puzzle/standards.html&FrameSet=television

One point of interest is that the IRE unit is defined as "1% of the video range from blanking to peak white, without reference to the actual signal voltage".

According to this write up, NTSC signals have the black level set at 7.5 IRE. I will keep searching to see what this means for DVDs.

ChrisWiggles

11-29-04, 01:24 PM

According to this write up, NTSC signals have the black level set at 7.5 IRE. I will keep searching to see what this means for DVDs.

begin rant/

Hugh: did you miss my painfully long explanations a page and two back?

And my comprehensive links within those explanations?

Read them. It explains exactly what this means with regards to the behavior of DVD players, and the creation of analog signals from the digital levels encoded on DVD.

I have about half a dozen posts in the last two pages of this thread ALONE detailing *exactly* what it all means, and if you don't believe me, feel free to click one of the numerous links in my posts to more 'official' sources, which apparently and unfortunately go underutilized.

/end rant.

Hugh_DaMann

11-29-04, 03:09 PM

Okay. Perhaps I am being a little slow here but I missed the explanation of what the 3910 is sending over the digital link for the two different settings, 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. If black = digital 16 and white = digital 235 on the DVD, and this information is being sent over the digital link to the H77, the only way that the H77 can "know" that there has been a change in 3910 settings is if these values have been shifted (or there is some other flag that I do not know about). The 3910 cannot be discarding the info in the 0-15 range because I can still see that information if I turn up the brightness. So what gives?

Chris, this is obviously not my area of expertise, so please pardon my lack of knowledge or improper use of terminology.

Cilent1

11-29-04, 03:32 PM

Don't feel bad Hugh, (thanks again for testing the Denon for me) I've been reading threads about this for weeks and finally feel like I have grasp on whats going on. Thanks to posts from ChrisWiggles, Guy Kuo and a few others. But mainly there seems to be a lot of mis-information out there. Here are a few more good threads if you want to really try to confuse yourself!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3307309#post3307309
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3307309#post3307309
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3307309#post3307309
Let's try not to stray the thread too far off topic though. As long as it relates to the Optoma, all good. After all this IS the H77 thread :)

Hey Tom, how bout some new H77 screen pics to get us back OT :D . By the way, what does the H77's splash screen look like?

Gary Lightfoot

11-29-04, 03:43 PM

I'm just glad we have guys like Darin, Chris, Michael and Guy etc, because it makes learning this fun hobby so much easier, despite it being quite confusing at times. :)

Gary.

Hugh_DaMann

11-29-04, 04:52 PM

You guys are right. This has really become a 3910 question and not a H77 one. Maybe I will stick my head into the DVD Players section and see if I can gather some info there.

Cilent1 and Chris, thank you for the links and the info.

ChrisWiggles

11-29-04, 05:37 PM

Hugh:

You may find your answer in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4728841#post4728841

Perhaps I am being a little slow here but I missed the explanation of what the 3910 is sending over the digital link for the two different settings, 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. If black = digital 16 and white = digital 235 on the DVD, and this information is being sent over the digital link to the H77, the only way that the H77 can "know" that there has been a change in 3910 settings is if these values have been shifted (or there is some other flag that I do not know about). The 3910 cannot be discarding the info in the 0-15 range because I can still see that information if I turn up the brightness. So what gives?

I'm sorry for missing the specifics of your question, but I don't know the behavior of this specific player, so you will have to relate specifically what's occuring, over what connection method, and what disc you are viewing.

I am assuming that you are seeing alteration of the digital output when changing the IRE setting? You will need to view with Avia Pro or DVE patterns that contain the full range of values, to see what is occurring to the signal.

Hugh_DaMann

11-29-04, 09:32 PM

Here is a screen shot from Star Wars - A New Hope with the H77 and the 3910 on their default settings. The THX Optimizer pages indicate that the brightness may actually be toned down a bit, but in general these settings are pretty good.

guitarman

11-29-04, 10:53 PM

Hi Hugh, :)

That's a good start. The only tip I can give you is to try to engulf as much of the widescreen image as you can. Get close enough so the sides are near the end of the video. I use a tripod and set the camera to night mode or slow shutter with as dark of a room as I can get.

The 3910 got high marks from the Secrets guys so you got some very good equipment there. Don't even think about the low price of the H77, this thing kills. :)
enjoy

Cilent1

11-30-04, 12:08 AM

Nice shot Hugh, listen to Tom, he is the screen pic genie! :D

guitarman

11-30-04, 09:22 AM

I broke the screenshot barrier a few times, HT1000, H30, H77 - total amounts of screens shots I mean. :)

People know when I do a early review they'll get a barage of screenshots. Everybody seems to enjoy it. I'll get pm's saying the screenshots put me over the top and I bought from AVS. :)

Next up is the Optoma H57.

Dave Harper

11-30-04, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
Bytehoven: Sort of.

My point is that the IRE option should *not* have any affect on the digital outputs, since IRE is not involved at all via digital output. There is no analog waveform, there is noe mV value for black on digital output it's all digital. That the IRE setting affects the digital output is design incompetence, or yielding to cost effectiveness. Because of either of these reasons, and because I don't have this player, I don't know which setting leaves the digital values "untouched."

sort of. The error is in having this option affect the digital output at all, as it's a completely unrelated option. We don't exactly know if it's elevating the digital levels and clipping whites, or compressing the range in a 7.5 setting, or the converse, submerging the values with a 0IRE setting. Someone needs to test the unit, or I'll have to get my hands on one.

We don't know which is the case yet, but we DO know that the IRE setup option affecting the digital outputs is cost-efficient poor design.

Chris,

All these posts lately are just confirming what I have been trying to say in the post of mine you blasted.

I KNOW that digital video signals do not have any analog waveforms on them and about the whole PC and video level DVI standards.

What I was talking about was the what you guys have been discussing for the last day or so. DVI/HDMI digital video signals being effected by IRE changes to the player, when in fact they should not change. Also, the improper D->A conversions of said digital video levels to analog YUV and in some cases RGB signals.

One thing I do know, digital video should NEVER have setup in the digital domain. This is something that is added in the D->A conversion process ONLY. People who manufacture players, master DVDs and digital video should know this, but unfortunately this is not always the case.

As I have said and what's been asked here. I have scoped these signals with a broadcast Tektronix Vectorscope and confirmed it to be true.

The correct settings with DVD through DVI/HDMI SHOULD be, if available in the player for some reason on digital video as Chris points out, 0 IRE and NORMAL (not "ENHANCED"). This SHOULD put out the proper video signals via your DVI/HDMI player. Then adjust your display device to get the proper black and white levels, as seen on screen with various test sources like DVE, Avia Pro, THX Optimizer, etc.

The reason, I think, that manufacturers put these controls on the DVI/HDMI digital outputs was to help those display devices that were released with DVI inputs that only conformed to PC level standards and/or did not have picture controls for their respective DVI inputs, although that is becoming the norm now.

Maybe I worded it wrong in my previous post, but this is the jist of what I am trying to get across:rolleyes:

The easiest way to confirm this is to use an SDI DVD player and scope the output. SDI does not have any of these "enhancements" that are being fudged with DVI/HDMI. If setup is added in the D->A conversion process from SDI, it will do what I mentioned in the previous post, take the whole signal from 0-100 IRE up to 7.5 - 107.5 IRE, thus clipping whites and if you back down the contrast, it will squeeze the greyscales placing them at incorrect positions. Again...this I have confirmed with a Tektronix Vectorscope. I'm not saying this is how it's supposed to be, I'm saying that's what's happening:(!!!

Fishhooks

11-30-04, 07:35 PM

Well put Dave, I can see where you are coming from even if not 100% of the pure technical ethics of what is being thrown rudely at you.

Get a life, some of you guys that are attempting to be so 'goody goody' perfect.

This is mainly a forum for mixed points of view from those of us who want to "sit back, relax and enjoy the show"

I would say the vast majority of us, whilst wanting to be on the whole, 'reasonably technically correct' with our set-ups, don't need these points so forcefully pushed down our throats. It also makes for uncomfortable reading for those who want to enjoy this forum.

Tom is to be congratulated for his well balanced points of view and gathering of ideas and thoughts (even though I don't understand how he finds the time)

"rant" as much as you like Chris, you are out of calibration with most of us!

After all, these are only "BOYS TOYS" often also enjoyed by our partners.

Dave Harper

11-30-04, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Fishhooks
Well put Dave, I can see where you are coming from even if not 100% of the pure technical ethics of what is being thrown rudely at you....

Actually, it is:D!!!

ChrisWiggles

12-01-04, 01:03 AM

Well, gee. I apologize if confusing and/or incorrect "facts" are being thrown around, and I make an honest and time-consuming attempt to correct them.

Not to mention it was not my direct corrections that were at all dealt with.

This area is ridiculously confused on the forum, and perhaps I should not attempt to correct misconceptions? Or help people understand? There were a number of statements in Dave's previous posts that were at the very least, seemingly very technically misleading, if not flat out incorrect.

These were a number of statements that, I'll grant Dave may have been poorly written, but would lead any normal reader to reach completely erroneous conclusions that simply aren't so:

the black level setup area (0 to 7.5 IRE), then the active video area (7.5 to 100 IRE). "If" the DVD was created with black level at 7.5 IRE, then the grey scale steps would be correct with the player set to 7.5 IRE. This should not be the case and DVDs should be made with their active video area from 0 to 100 IRE, not 7.5 to 100 IRE.

This leads any normal reader to think that some DVDs are "created with black level at 7.5 IRE," and others can be "be made with their active video area from 0 to 100 IRE, not 7.5 to 100 IRE." That's directly what was said, and it's natural that any competent reader would come to this conclusion. It's just not so.
DVDs are not capable of being created with black levels at *ANY* absolute IRE. There is no differentiation that can be made at all between DVDs as somehow"encoded in different IRE." It's simply outside the pale of reality.

If the player does it right, it will add black level setup to the image and recalculate where the grey scale ramps will fall. Unfortunately this is rarely the case and even if it does, you still lose a little dynamic range to your video signal, 7.5% to be exact.

This leads any normal reader to assume that using a 0IRE setting will improve dynamic range/contrast. Fair? It's not so.
You do not lose any dynamic range at all. If you are losing dynamic range, then you are not recalibrating your display for the new settings. This is user error. After recalibration, the final image CR and grayscale should be 100% identical to the previous setting (assuming proper functioning of the video chain in both cases).

now they can take advantage of the added 7.5% of the video's dynamic range.

This continues again to the conclusion that you are losing dynamic range. It's not so.
The disc is digital. There's *NO* difference in dynamic range occurring whatsoever. The dynamic range is limited by your display calibration. In both cases, the final results are 100% identical if properly calibrated.

These are the portions of your posts that I jumped on, and rightly so. If people are going to ponder these settings, they should also ponder an understanding of what the settings do.

And if the explanations given are seemingly incorrect(which they were), it's only fair for me to try to correct them.

I do apologize if my responses sounded blunt, but it's very often necessary in this subject area, lest people continue to ramble on about DVDs encoded at 7.5IRE, or 0IRE, or always needing to set players to 0IRE to preserve BTB, or such nonsense.

I lent my time and effort typing out very LONG and thorough responses to try to un-confuse things for people. I went far beyond just refuting a few of Dave's statements, but made an honest attempt to explain the entirety of what's going on for *everyone's* benefit (now i see I'm not sure if I'm that successful), and instead: I get slammed and insulted personally as a result.

I can't say I've been very motivated by this thread to help in the future when people crave an understanding of what's going on, or why their video chain is behaving "strangely" due to confusing and incorrect advice given on the forum.

I didn't let this one get to me originally, but it certainly did rub me the wrong way:
I have vectorscoped these settings I mention and confirmed it all to be true. I am a TV broadcaster and have been for over 10 years. This info is based on fact, not being fooled by playing with settings and calibration DVDs and thinking..."that looks good".

Gee. I guess I should have seen what was coming then. My links concur with my statements. I guess Joe Kane, Guy Kuo, and many others are all fools: incompetent non-professionals playing around with test DVDs saying "durrr... gee Bob, that looks good to me. hand me another beer, would ya?" And, gee, for *some* strange reason I feel insulted. I wonder why.

:mad:

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated and viciously insulted, but for *some* mysterious reason I feel it's my right to feel that way at this point.

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 02:55 AM

Funny Chris, that's the way I felt also after your mightier than thou diatribe.

Remember, digital video and everything digital is just a "digital" representation of an "analog" world. Those digital values have to correspond to something, which, like you say and everyone knows, value 16 is equivalent to video black, which low and behold came from the analog IRE measurements way back when dinosaurs roamed and we had analog video signals.

Nothing I have said has been untrue. A little confusing maybe, and misunderstood by some, but not untrue.

Jeez, go back and read my post again and then some of yours later. You confirm almost everything I was trying to say.

Chill out dude. It was never a personal attack and still isn't. Did you invent digital video or something:rolleyes:?

Also, I think that last comment of mine that you quoted was directed at people who may not know better and need to know that just using a test disc and being able to see certain things doesn't mean they are getting the best possible image. You of all people should know that. Sorry if I offended you. I can assure you, Joe Kane and all the others would say the same things I did, just maybe a little clearer for the slow ones of the bunch.

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
From my understanding, it is likely that the 7.5 IRE setting is the "proper" default that leaves the digital levels unmessed with.

Dang, you go on ranting about how there are no analog IRE settings on DVDs (which most of us know, of course), then make comments like that. Who's confusing who here???

I will say this again...DIGITAL VIDEO SHOULD NEVER HAVE SETUP...THIS IS A FUNCTION OF THE DIGITAL TO ANALOG CONVERSION PROCESS. BLACK LEVEL SETUP, IF NEEDED AS IN THE ANALOG U.S. TV STANDARD M/N WITH NTSC COLOR, WILL AND SHOULD BE ADDED AT THIS STAGE OF THE PROCESSING.

I will say no more on this subject. Please let's get back to the topic at hand, which happens to be the Optoma H77 DLP projector.

I got the new FW C16-NTSC. It has a few more adjustments in the SM. I will let you know if it makes any of my issues better. So far I see no real improvement:(

Cilent1

12-01-04, 09:30 AM

Did you have to send the PJ in or did you install the FW yourself?

danielo

12-01-04, 10:03 AM

I got the new FW C16-NTSC. It has a few more adjustments in the SM. I will let you know if it makes any of my issues better. So far I see no real improvement:( [/B]

Sorry to hear the prroblems are still there for you, have you considered trying a external scaler (say a htpc as a test?). Anyway can you list or make a screenshot of the service menu ?

Daniel.

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 10:09 AM

I did it myself.

One thing I did notice, with this FW all the settings were reset to factory defaults. The others I performed on this unit did not do this. Heck, it even flipped my image from Front/Ceiling back to Front/Tabletop.

It added a few things in the SM like NDG (like the PAL units), a De-Gamma table settings menu and reports on LAMP FAIL and OVERTEMP indicators. The NDG setting of 0 or 1 didn't seem to do anything visible and the different Gamma settings put the image all over the map. It appeared that "00" and "04" could be the two best so far. 04 made the image a little more CRT like.

None of these, so far, have seemed to effect the "clay face" panning issues though. I watched some of the recorded NFL football I have on my Motorola 6412 DVR and still notice it very bad on solid colors like faces and legs on pans.

Another problem I have is getting a Pioneer 59AVi HDMI DVD player to sync with the DVI input of the H77, as mentioned previously. Does anyone have this combo and tell me if it works for you. I have also tried a Denon 2910, it worked but with much fiddling. I think I had to hook it up to DVI first, then after it recognized the signal, I could switch it to HDMI. I don't have this option with the 59AVi. Sounds like an EDID data problem to me. Any thoughts?

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by danielo
Sorry to hear the prroblems are still there for you, have you considered trying a external scaler (say a htpc as a test?). Anyway can you list or make a screenshot of the service menu ?

Daniel.

I have tried just about every possible source, including scalers and an HTPC. I see this panning issue on pans with 720P HD, so the scaler really doesn't come into play. I send it native from the HD source, like FOX 720P football.

Sure, I'll try to get that SM pix up for you. I might be imagining things, but it also seems like this FW speeds up the menu switching and responsiveness.

guitarman

12-01-04, 11:10 AM

Dave, you're sensitive to the panning on this DLP machine. Just about everybody else the panning doesn't bother them, me included. Looks like there isn't a fix that will work for you.

Sorry, What's up next?
good luck

Gary Lightfoot

12-01-04, 01:07 PM

Dave,

did you try changing the color wheel index (cwi)? Danielo was able to remove the posterisation when he did that, and it might help with the clay face you're still seeing. Can't hurt to try.

Gary.

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 01:23 PM

Been doing that Gary, since the beginning. Thanks for the tip though, I hope it at least helps others.

It does make a difference, but only to a certain point.

I will try to play with the new NDG setting a little more today.

Hugh_DaMann

12-01-04, 01:31 PM

Does anyone know what the gamma settings 1-5 actually correspond to, i.e. how the gamma curve is reshaped with each value?

ChrisWiggles

12-01-04, 01:40 PM

Nothing I have said has been untrue. A little confusing maybe, and misunderstood by some, but not untrue.

I quoted a number of things *you* said which you then ignored in your later posts. I will assume then that my corrections stand unchallenged directly. Instead you dance off to another issue so you can agree with me as if everything you said previously was correct.

Unless you actually want to debate the merits of what I said(which doesn't at *all* seem to be the case) in correcting some of those statements, I'm done with this thread.

My statements stand as correct, and I stand by them:

From my understanding, it is likely that the 7.5 IRE setting is the "proper" default that leaves the digital levels unmessed with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dang, you go on ranting about how there are no analog IRE settings on DVDs (which most of us know, of course), then make comments like that. Who's confusing who here???

I will say this again...DIGITAL VIDEO SHOULD NEVER HAVE SETUP...THIS IS A FUNCTION OF THE DIGITAL TO ANALOG CONVERSION PROCESS. BLACK LEVEL SETUP, IF NEEDED AS IN THE ANALOG U.S. TV STANDARD M/N WITH NTSC COLOR, WILL AND SHOULD BE ADDED AT THIS STAGE OF THE PROCESSING.

This isn't what I said. I said, after a LONG explanation, so that I would hope some would follow what I mean, is that for *poor* design issues, players *may* alter their digital outputs when adjusting the IRE option. This should *not* be the case, but it happens. In this case, you will have to view test patterns on a monitor, while connected via digital output, to see which IRE option leaves the digital levels "unmessed with" as they should be. A properly designed player should only implement this IRE option change with matching analog alterations, and not digital ones.

How you reach this final conclusion conceptually is important, and it was my fading attempt to make this statement unconfusing, which is difficult and frustrating to do, especially if corrections to very common misconceptions get ignored in an attempt to save face.

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 02:50 PM

OK, that sounds fair Chris. I really had no ill will towards you or what you were saying either. I *think* we were both trying to say the same thing, maybe you just worded it a little better than I. I agree and was trying to say that even though we both know how it's supposed to be, many if not all players do not conform, and I think maybe to deal with certain display devices.

Just try one thing for me. Get an SDI player, send out a grey steps pattern in 10 IRE steps. Add 7.5 IRE black level and tell me what you see with a vectorscope? You may and probably will have to convert the digital SDI signal to an analog YPbPr signal to do this becasue as I said, the digital signal does not inherently have any setup and that must be added in the D->A conversion. You *should* see the grey steps starting at 7.5 IRE with 10 IRE at 17.5, then up from there to 107.5 IRE. Then reduce contrast down to where it falls at 100 IRE based on the whitest white bar which is also 100 IRE, while maintaining the 7.5 IRE black level. You *should* see the image range and grey scale steps squeeze down and place the IRE grey steps at incorrect posiitions as seen on the vectorscope.

Now put the black level to 0 IRE and recalibrate the contrast up to 100 IRE again, because it *most likely* will drop to 92.5 IRE when you set black at 0. Now you *should* see the image in the entire video range from 0 - 100 IRE and the grey steps now fall in their proper places., 10 at 10, 20 at 20, and so on.

This is what I was talking about by limiting, ever so slightly by 7.5%, your video signal's dynamic range and placing the grey scales improperly. Granted, this is normally and should always only be an analog issue, but as we both have stated, manufacturers are doing this with their DVI/HDMI inputs also in the digital domain to more than likely compensate for display devices that have no picture adjustments, improper standards (PC vs Video levels) and also fluctuating sources like improperly mastered DVDs, HD, etc.

This is a well known fact in broadcast video as a limitation of M/N NTSC video as compared to PAL, SECAM, etc. where their black levels are at 0. It shouldn't be an issue in the digital world as we both agree, but it seems that it is now becoming an issue with adjustments like 0 and 7.5 IRE settings for digital video inputs/outputs like DVI and HDMI. Only when converting these to analog should it come into play, not in the digital realm.

I guess in a nutshell this is what I was trying to get across. If fed a pure digital signal (like SDI) without any "fudging" like DVI/HDMI do to compensate for consumer displays, you get a true representation of the entire video image and it can be seen using a known, correct video test pattern like grey steps and a vectorscope.

Sorry it had to come to this and I for one completely apologize for anything negative I may have contributed...

...Peace:)?!?!?!

dandaroy

12-01-04, 03:25 PM

Dave,

What else are you planning on doing since this new FW did not help you?
If all else fails, force Optoma to take it back. I did and I am glad I did not have to live with a faulty design after paying over 6 grand! Geez!!

I saw the same exact things that you are posting in pans. I saw it mostly on HD 1080i and 720p and occasionally with DVD. Do you see it with DVD at all?

Originally posted by DHarp193
I did it myself.

One thing I did notice, with this FW all the settings were reset to factory defaults. The others I performed on this unit did not do this. Heck, it even flipped my image from Front/Ceiling back to Front/Tabletop.

It added a few things in the SM like NDG (like the PAL units), a De-Gamma table settings menu and reports on LAMP FAIL and OVERTEMP indicators. The NDG setting of 0 or 1 didn't seem to do anything visible and the different Gamma settings put the image all over the map. It appeared that "00" and "04" could be the two best so far. 04 made the image a little more CRT like.

None of these, so far, have seemed to effect the "clay face" panning issues though. I watched some of the recorded NFL football I have on my Motorola 6412 DVR and still notice it very bad on solid colors like faces and legs on pans.

Another problem I have is getting a Pioneer 59AVi HDMI DVD player to sync with the DVI input of the H77, as mentioned previously. Does anyone have this combo and tell me if it works for you. I have also tried a Denon 2910, it worked but with much fiddling. I think I had to hook it up to DVI first, then after it recognized the signal, I could switch it to HDMI. I don't have this option with the 59AVi. Sounds like an EDID data problem to me. Any thoughts?

Dave Harper

12-01-04, 03:40 PM

Yes, I do see it with DVD too, but only in certain situations and the torture tests mentioned previously. I can live with it's DVD performance, it's quite good.

It just bugs the heck out of me when I am trying to watch football in HD:mad: I don't remember seeing it with other DLPs I have owned, seen and calibrated, at least not this bad.

dandaroy

12-01-04, 03:43 PM

Why live with a buggy unit, just get rid of it, dump it on Optoma!! There are other choices around which won't bug the heck out of you.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Yes, I do see it with DVD too, but only in certain situations and the torture tests mentioned previously. I can live with it's DVD performance, it's quite good.

It just bugs the heck out of me when I am trying to watch football in HD:mad: I don't remember seeing it with other DLPs I have owned, seen and calibrated, at least not this bad.

danielo

12-01-04, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by dandaroy
Why live with a buggy unit, just get rid of it, dump it on Optoma!! There are other choices around which won't bug the heck out of you.

He seems more than capable of making up his own mind, I do agree the ball is in optoma's park it would be nice if they send you a new unit just to make sure its not the machine and if that doesn't help refund it.

Good luck and tnx for making the screenshot for us,

Daniel.

ChrisWiggles

12-01-04, 04:01 PM

First, off definitely peace :)!

You *should* see the image range and grey scale steps squeeze down and place the IRE grey steps at incorrect posiitions as seen on the vectorscope.

Now put the black level to 0 IRE and recalibrate the contrast up to 100 IRE again, because it *most likely* will drop to 92.5 IRE when you set black at 0. Now you *should* see the image in the entire video range from 0 - 100 IRE and the grey steps now fall in their proper places., 10 at 10, 20 at 20, and so on.

This is what I was talking about by limiting, ever so slightly by 7.5%, your video signal's dynamic range and placing the grey scales improperly. Granted, this is normally and should always only be an analog issue, but as we both have stated, manufacturers are doing this with their DVI/HDMI inputs also in the digital domain to more than likely compensate for display devices that have no picture adjustments, improper standards (PC vs Video levels) and also fluctuating sources like improperly mastered DVDs, HD, etc.

I see what you're saying, but this is only a change in the range of analog values as seen on a scope. Your resultant image will *not* change in dynamic range, which is really visualized by contrast ratio. Once recalibrated to the new analog voltage values, the image should be 100% the same as before. 100%, absolutely no change in contrast ratio between black and white. I'll use a digital display, like an LCD/DLP in my example, only because it's easier because it will have a limited on/off CR ability(instead of a CRT). Lets just say it has 1000:1 on/off CR capability between black and white. You can think of the projector that this thread is about as a prime example.

If you feed it an analog signal, let's say component, *without* US NTSC setup, that maps reference black to 0 IRE, and nominal reference white at 100IRE. Let's pretend for a moment that we will clip peak whites(above ref white at 235), and instead only calibrate with reference white, being output at 100IRE, being maintained by the display. Reference black is displayed at the lower black limit of the display. Our image will have a contrast ratio of 1000:1 between black (encoded at digital 16, but being output at 0IRE) and reference white (encoded 235, output at 100IRE).

Now, say we alter the source so that this time it follows US NTSC standards, and outputs black at 7.5 IRE. The analog voltages run from 7.5 IRE (now at 53mV instead of 0mV) for ref black, to 100IRE for ref white, with a "compression" of the *voltage range* that is used to represent the video material. We re-calibrate the display (this recalibration is of *key* importance!), so that 7.5 IRE is displayed as black (since that's what it is, a representation of digital 16/reference black), and adjust the white level control so that the upper limit of the display is again white at 100IRE. The analog voltage values have changed, but with recalibration, we STILL have the *exact same* image as before, with the same on/off contrast ratio of 1000:1 between black and white.

The change in analog voltages of an anlog signal do not mean a change in the video's contrast ratio. There is no increase in contrast ratio/visual dynamic range that occurs by using an analog format that places black at 0IRE rather than at 7.5 IRE.

View the signals on a scope, and of course the voltage range is altered (as you correctly mentioned, it should be "compressed" at 7.5 setting, rather than just shifted up), but you HAVE to recalibrate the display to correctly represent these new voltages to match the display's black and white level points. If the actual IMAGE is losing contrast ratio by using the 7.5 IRE option, this means that the user has not recalibrated, and you are now viewing a non-calibrated image chain that has elevated black levels. This mis-calibrated chain will show a decrease in contrast ratio, because the black levels are improperly elevated due to user error in not calibrating. This is error causing CR limitations. Proper recalibration should yield the same 1000:1 CR as previously.

This of course, makes the assumption that a display has enough adjustment range to accomodate both of these voltage input ranges. If it does not have the adjustment range to properly display one or the other, you must use the one that is within the display's range.

The key underlying all of this, is that it doesn't matter so much that analog voltages vary, but rather the display CHAIN needs to properly recreate black, white, and all the values inbetween, no matter at what voltage black and white are being output.

The intermediary voltages will change, but the resultant image should be the same once recalibrated to match any changes in input voltages (with analog signals of course!).

When using digital signals, it *should* be as simple as just making sure that your source is maintaining video levels, by leaving it in a "normal" mode, rather than any "enhanced' or "deep black" mode or whatever it's labeled as, and then calibrating.

Unfortunately, the IRE option on many sources is screwing with the digital signal, so you'll have to test the behavior of your source using a test disc to see which setting leaves the digital outputs un-messed with, if the IRE option is changing your digital outputs. Ideally, no changes in any of the DVD player's pcture controls would alter the digital outputs except the one that would expand to PC levels, which you should NOT do.

This is why this is so confusing. Because IREs, and digital levels *should* be very separate issues. Unfortunately, real-life design makes some of these things affect other things that they shouldn't. It's sort of like trying to explain that the earth is really round, only to have to add in exceptions to places where it actually is perfectly flat because god was being cheap in his design or something. Hard to to explain that!

So the key point, is that as long as the video CHAIN is properly calibrated, when using analog inputs/outputs, it doesn't matter so much what the voltages are (heck for computers they are totally different, and many sources are off-spec, and again, doesn't really matter so much in the end), because as long as you match your display to show BLACK with whatever voltage black is being represented as, and white for whatever voltage white is represented as, your picture is correct. Any time you change any input voltages around by switching sources, changing options, etc, you then have to go change your displays black/white level points to match the new voltages, but in the END, your picture will be 100% the same, the same contrast ratio, etc, no matter what the voltage values and voltage range is.

I hope that wasn't too repetitive! sorry!

It's thorough though! :p

dandaroy

12-01-04, 04:10 PM

I did not say he is not capable of decision making. Just from experience I can tell what it is not worth the frustration of trying this and that now since the FW did not resolve the issue.
Peace :)

Originally posted by danielo
He seems more than capable of making up his own mind, I do agree the ball is in optoma's park it would be nice if they send you a new unit just to make sure its not the machine and if that doesn't help refund it.

Good luck and tnx for making the screenshot for us,

Daniel.

Cilent1

12-01-04, 04:37 PM

It seems no PJ is perfect. There is no way I could deal with the pixel cropping that the HS51 does with it's 720P signal, nor would I want to subject myself to another round of burnt LCD polarizer panels that I experienced with my last two Sony PJ's. But that was just my experience and I'm sure the majority of people will love the Sony PJ's. They just aren't for "me". This panning issue seems to bug the heck out of some. While others have no idea what the big deal is. However if your unit is defective, Optoma should make good (didn't they already send you another unit)?

Maybe the Optoma just ain't for ya Dave. You seem to have tried everything to get it to work for you. I'm hoping I have better luck than you :p. At least I didn't pay as much as dandaroy did ;) . Hope you find a solution. Maybe you should try the Sony. Indranil seems to like his in spite of it's flaws.

dandaroy

12-01-04, 04:48 PM

"No PJ is perfect" Amen to that. I have gone through several of them and almost all have/had some issue. It is just what you can live with. I am not trying to bash Optoma (although they gave me a lot of trouble), but I just could not live with the panning issues. It was giving me headaches.
The issue with Sony sucks, but it is not a dealbreaker for me (unless I have other repair issues). I would like to have this problem sorted out and hoping that it will, considering it is such a findamental issue.
But you never know!

Originally posted by Cilent1
It seems no PJ is perfect. There is no way I could deal with the pixel cropping that the HS51 does with it's 720P signal, nor would I want to subject myself to another round of burnt LCD polarizer panels that I experienced with my last two Sony PJ's. But that was just my experience and I'm sure the majority of people will love the Sony PJ's. They just aren't for "me". This panning issue seems to bug the heck out of some. While others have no idea what the big deal is. However if your unit is defective, Optoma should make good (didn't they already send you another unit)?

Maybe the Optoma just ain't for ya Dave. You seem to have tried everything to get it to work for you. I'm hoping I have better luck than you :p. At least I didn't pay as much as dandaroy did ;) . Hope you find a solution. Maybe you should try the Sony. Indranil seems to like his in spite of it's flaws.

guitarman

12-01-04, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Cilent1
It seems no PJ is perfect. There is no way I could deal with the pixel cropping that the HS51 does with it's 720P signal, nor would I want to subject myself to another round of burnt LCD polarizer panels that I experienced with my last two Sony PJ's. But that was just my experience and I'm sure the majority of people will love the Sony PJ's. They just aren't for "me". This panning issue seems to bug the heck out of some. While others have no idea what the big deal is. However if your unit is defective, Optoma should make good (didn't they already send you another unit)?

Maybe the Optoma just ain't for ya Dave. You seem to have tried everything to get it to work for you. I'm hoping I have better luck than you :p. At least I didn't pay as much as dandaroy did ;) . Hope you find a solution. Maybe you should try the Sony. Indranil seems to like his in spite of it's flaws.

I agree. :) and still think I have one of THE best pictures out there for low dollar outlay. I'm allowed to think that am I not? ;)

guitarman

12-01-04, 07:24 PM

Hey, did you ever try the white peaking feature? Sometimes I'll use it because it will make white much whiter. It's good for certain movies but sometimes movies with daylight scenes of blue skys with clouds you'll see the negative effect. The white clouds might crush out and look splotchy. Things like a TV shows that are all indoors it will add a little to the contrast. When I use it I'll use 3 or 6 on the dial.

Craig Peer

12-01-04, 07:37 PM

"I'm allowed to think that am I not?" - I think so too - never saw any problems on your unit. Thank goodness they shoot texture on the walls tommorrow at my house - I might have my new home theater built by next year : ) !!!!!

guitarman

12-01-04, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Craig Peer
"I'm allowed to think that am I not?" - I think so too - never saw any problems on your unit. Thank goodness they shoot texture on the walls tommorrow at my house - I might have my new home theater built by next year : ) !!!!!

Sounds good, I have to think that both Dave and Dandaroy are both extremely sensitive to DLP dither or just very unlucky in getting two projectors in a row that were unwatchable for them. Since I've gone through all the tests they've thrown at me and for the life of me I can't see one thing wrong. Or at least the slightest thing that would make me wan't to give up this baby! jmo

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/darkcity2.jpg

Spiderman 2 tonight :)

analogman

12-01-04, 09:14 PM

DAMN! DANDAROY!
You sure spend a lot of time hyper-analyzing the illusion! It is a machine, just like an amplifier, CD player etc. There are many to choose from and ALL are compromised to some degree. The function is to RECREATE an event, NOT produce one. Kind of like plastic tits, some jobs look better than others in the eye of the beholder. I am sure you could find some guys that could find fault with the OBJECTIVE QUALITY of a Rolex or Rolls-Royce, but now I am rambling... I'm just glad I'm not your wife!!!

Just enjoy the show,
Analogman

analogman

12-01-04, 09:27 PM

Dear dandaroy,
It's a HOBBY, and it's supposed to be FUN :)
Maybe you could get some bits and an E.E. Degree and build your OWN projector!
Now THAT would be cool, you big CRY BABY !!!

Your friend forever,
Analogman

P.S. Your whinning is screwing up an otherwise very informative thread! Please suggest a machine, as I am planning on making a purchase, or do you only know the ones NOT to buy? You're an idiot.

Hugh_DaMann

12-01-04, 10:13 PM

For those of you who are interested, I have started a new thread over in the DVD players thread on the 3910 video settings. I believe that I have some strong evidence that the NORMAL 7.5 setting alters the digital data the least. I also posted several H77 screenshots as evidence.

guitarman

12-01-04, 10:26 PM

Thanks analogman, very eloquent. :)

I'll check out the 3910 DVD forum. It's supossed to be a killer machine. I had the missing white moving bars with my Seleco HT200, no matter which dvd player I used. Seleco said furged da bout it and just put the contrast above the brightness. No kidding

Cilent1

12-02-04, 12:12 AM

Tom, I know you use AVIA, but do you have any shots of THX optimizer patterns like in Hughs thread, or DVE. Avia does not have any BTB data, and since your H77 seems to be calibrated nicely (judging from your screenies), I'm curious to know how your H77 settings display the patterns, especially through the H77's DVI input.

dandaroy

12-02-04, 01:34 AM

Go f**k yourself newbie!! You are not worth my time.

Originally posted by analogman
Dear dandaroy,
It's a HOBBY, and it's supposed to be FUN :)
Maybe you could get some bits and an E.E. Degree and build your OWN projector!
Now THAT would be cool, you big CRY BABY !!!

Your friend forever,
Analogman

P.S. Your whinning is screwing up an otherwise very informative thread! Please suggest a machine, as I am planning on making a purchase, or do you only know the ones NOT to buy? You're an idiot.

danielo

12-02-04, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by analogman
DAMN! DANDAROY!
You sure spend a lot of time hyper-analyzing the illusion! It is a machine, just like an amplifier, CD player etc. There are many to choose from and ALL are compromised to some degree. The function is to RECREATE an event, NOT produce one. Kind of like plastic tits, some jobs look better than others in the eye of the beholder. I am sure you could find some guys that could find fault with the OBJECTIVE QUALITY of a Rolex or Rolls-Royce, but now I am rambling... I'm just glad I'm not your wife!!!

Just enjoy the show,
Analogman

Well i don't agree with this really, we (esp. in europe) seem to get alot of first release problems with projectors compared to other types of units like amps. I guess its just not that easy to build a projector in 1 try. For that reason it seems support and reaction time from makers is very important, its allmost a given that there will be problems what is not a given is how its handled and imho all brands (also optoma) should take these forums more into account since it could save them alot of trouble with reviews in magazines (with their 2 months prep) ive already seen several bad pal reviews of the H77 as a result of them having bad units.

Daniel.

Alan Gouger

12-02-04, 12:55 PM

Hey..lets keep this on topic. Keep personal wars off the public forum please.

Thank you.

analogman

12-02-04, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by danielo
Well i don't agree with this really, we (esp. in europe) seem to get alot of first release problems with projectors compared to other types of units like amps. I guess its just not that easy to build a projector in 1 try. For that reason it seems support and reaction time from makers is very important, its allmost a given that there will be problems what is not a given is how its handled and imho all brands (also optoma) should take these forums more into account since it could save them alot of trouble with reviews in magazines (with their 2 months prep) ive already seen several bad pal reviews of the H77 as a result of them having bad units.

Daniel.

Daniel,
I don't think idiosyncratic behaviors and minor (fixable) format compatibility issues are indicative of a "BAD" unit or design. To say, or imply so is irresponsible and ignorant.
Whether you agree or not, ALL technologies dealing with the reproduction of real time events ARE compromised to SOME degree, be it a 1920s Gramophone or a bleeding edge machine like the "H77".
To be more specific, the artifacts (if they exist at all) "dandaroy" seems to be in such a twist about are inherent with consideration to the architecture of the device, and once again do not indicate a "BAD" unit.
Even the images perceived by the Human eye would be flawed to this individual, (and of coarse they are, but "he" can't exchange those).
Back to compatibility, remember FIRST generation DVD players? Were you an early adopter? Will that machine play all the current software titles? Does that mean the machine is bad?
Some people don't possess the spirit or disposable income to be players in the early adopter game and should not try, they're too neurotic to just relax and enjoy! They should not torment their provincial little minds with the latest joys technology can bring!
Last but not least, service and support. If I understand the posts on this thread as convoluted as some may be, Optoma has exchanged this guy's machine at least once, and finally, they REFUNDED his MONEY, as satisfying this individual appears impossible. I think he should have made a decision before he tormented all these folks of whether he really wanted it or not. I guess some people need the validation of others more than the security and confidence of their own choices.
I think Optoma's sevice and patience has been, and is admirable, even by "European" standards, wouldn't you agree?
The majority of the audio/video press hacks aren't helping much either. Their meaningless rambles help fuel insecurity in the insecure, as the majority of them have no technical background. Most are English majors with experience in RETAIL.
The general consensus appears to be that Optoma has some of the best kit going and represents the bleeding edge. But I DO NOT CARE what the consensus is. I care about what my eyes tell me, that the Optoma "H77" is one KICK ASS machine.
I'll get off my soap box now :)
Analogman

analogman

12-02-04, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Hey..lets keep this on topic. Keep personal wars off the public forum please.

Thank you.

Mr. Gouger,
My sincere apologies if I offended anyone or violated Forum protocol.

With regards,
Analogman

Craig Peer

12-02-04, 01:33 PM

" The general consensus appears to be that Optoma has some of the best kit going and represents the bleeding edge. But I DO NOT CARE what the consensus is. I care about what my eyes tell me, that the Optoma "H77" is one KICK ASS machine. " -

I do find it odd that the two reviews I've read on the H77 never mention the problems expressed on this thread either ( not to mention I never saw it with Toms unit ). Perhaps it has to do with the many variables introduced by what people use to feed a signal to their projectors.

analogman

12-02-04, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Craig Peer
" The general consensus appears to be that Optoma has some of the best kit going and represents the bleeding edge. But I DO NOT CARE what the consensus is. I care about what my eyes tell me, that the Optoma "H77" is one KICK ASS machine. " -

I do find it odd that the two reviews I've read on the H77 never mention the problems expressed on this thread either ( not to mention I never saw it with Toms unit ). Perhaps it has to do with the many variables introduced by what people use to feed a signal to their projectors.

Excellent point Craig! Exactly!
You are applying logic and objectivity as well as personal experience. What a refreshing approach! :)

As always,
Analogman ;)

Gary Lightfoot

12-02-04, 01:45 PM

I can remember when the NEC Ht1000 first came out - the PAL units had visible tearing when in 16:9 mode, and needed a firmare fix. I don't think the unit at that time was fit for purpose as a PAL display, but was perfectly fine for NTSC.

The H77 does have a posterisation issue that appears to be mostly confined to PAL units, and I have to say that if I had a unit with it as bad as some have it, then I too would send it back. I did exactky that with a Philips DVD player (963a) which had issues (not all, but enough to produce a huge thread on the DVD forum here, much like this one), and that was considerably cheaper than the H77 is.

If I see artefacts such as image noise and poseterisation (for example) that I don't normaly see, then it pulls me out of the movie, so I want as little a distracton as possible. I may well upgrade to this pj myself, but I won't if posterisation is an issue. Fortunatley it looks like the new firmware has fixed it in the majority of cases.

Gary.

Dave Harper

12-02-04, 01:50 PM

You guys kill me:rolleyes: I have used the same source units that Tom has used. A Bravo D2 and a Comcast Motorola HD cable box.

These sources I might add are the exact same ones that I used previously on what is arguably the best consumer video projector, the Sony G90, and I have experienced absolutely none of these issues with that setup. I have also hooked up a professional Mitsubishi MegaView monitor, the XC-3315C, to the exact same sources and cables and do not see any of the issues with that either. That leaves ONLY the H77 to blame for this...period. I have done tons of troubleshooting in my day as a TV and Radio broadcast technician and it is clearly narrowed down to one thing, the H77.

If you guys don't see it, believe me, I am soooooooooooo happy for you because I wish that were true for me too. Maybe I have a bad unit...again and yours is working 100% and that's why you don't see it, who knows??? Maybe you aren't as sensitive to this as I, like rainbows on DLPs, once again...who knows? All I know is, it's definitely there on my two machines I've had and I can't live with it.

It needs to be fixed VERY soon or this thing will be outta here one way or another.

Oh yeah, and has ANYONE got this thing to work with a Pioneer DV-59AVi DVD player through HDMI to DVI conversion???

SteveFred

12-02-04, 02:05 PM

I hope they do get the PAL issues resolved soon for the poeple that are having problems.

I have 300+ hrs on my H77 and couldn't be happier.

I am not one to get into over heated disputes, but agalogman is right about one thing, toooooooo many people on these forums over analysis things too much. I do understand its a forum to discuss the good and bad in products, but there are people that will nto be happy unless things are perfect and that will never happen :):)

Steve

SteveFred

12-02-04, 02:08 PM

I do use the Pioneer DV-59AVi DVD , but through SDI ouput.

analogman

12-02-04, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by SteveFred
I hope they do get the PAL issues resolved soon for the poeple that are having problems.

I have 300+ hrs on my H77 and couldn't be happier.

I am not one to get into over heated disputes, but agalogman is right about one thing, toooooooo many people on these forums over analysis things too much. I do understand its a forum to discuss the good and bad in products, but there are people that will nto be happy unless things are perfect and that will never happen :):)

Steve

Thank you for READING my post! :)

Analogman

analogman

12-02-04, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by DHarp193
You guys kill me:rolleyes: I have used the same source units that Tom has used. A Bravo D2 and a Comcast Motorola HD cable box.

These sources I might add are the exact same ones that I used previously on what is arguably the best consumer video projector, the Sony G90, and I have experienced absolutely none of these issues with that setup. I have also hooked up a professional Mitsubishi MegaView monitor, the XC-3315C, to the exact same sources and cables and do not see any of the issues with that either. That leaves ONLY the H77 to blame for this...period. I have done tons of troubleshooting in my day as a TV and Radio broadcast technician and it is clearly narrowed down to one thing, the H77.

If you guys don't see it, believe me, I am soooooooooooo happy for you because I wish that were true for me too. Maybe I have a bad unit...again and yours is working 100% and that's why you don't see it, who knows??? Maybe you aren't as sensitive to this as I, like rainbows on DLPs, once again...who knows? All I know is, it's definitely there on my two machines I've had and I can't live with it.

It needs to be fixed VERY soon or this thing will be outta here one way or another.

Oh yeah, and has ANYONE got this thing to work with a Pioneer DV-59AVi DVD player through HDMI to DVI conversion???

Hello DHarp193,
As I mentioned, I am in the market to buy but I am waiting for the perfect machine. Do I understand you to mean the Sony G90 is PERFECT?!
Gee THANKS for the heads up, my search is over! :D :D :D
Where is your store?

Excitedly yours,
Analogman

guitarman

12-02-04, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by DHarp193
You guys kill me:rolleyes: I have used the same source units that Tom has used. A Bravo D2 and a Comcast Motorola HD cable box.

These sources I might add are the exact same ones that I used previously on what is arguably the best consumer video projector, the Sony G90, and I have experienced absolutely none of these issues with that setup. I have also hooked up a professional Mitsubishi MegaView monitor, the XC-3315C, to the exact same sources and cables and do not see any of the issues with that either. That leaves ONLY the H77 to blame for this...period. I have done tons of troubleshooting in my day as a TV and Radio broadcast technician and it is clearly narrowed down to one thing, the H77.

If you guys don't see it, believe me, I am soooooooooooo happy for you because I wish that were true for me too. Maybe I have a bad unit...again and yours is working 100% and that's why you don't see it, who knows??? Maybe you aren't as sensitive to this as I, like rainbows on DLPs, once again...who knows? All I know is, it's definitely there on my two machines I've had and I can't live with it.

It needs to be fixed VERY soon or this thing will be outta here one way or another.

Oh yeah, and has ANYONE got this thing to work with a Pioneer DV-59AVi DVD player through HDMI to DVI conversion???

Dave you should get back with CRT and you're right 99% like with rainbows aren't sensitive to DLP dither. Like me I've had over 7DLPs and I never been bothered. Overall I've liked all the machines I've had, starting with the NEC LT150.

We should get back more on topic, the Pal guys are all fixed up now it looks like mits did some work and got the HC2000 up and running in Pal land.