Thanks, and yes I know what region codes are, that's for sure. I was just curious that it seems the only difference between the 59avi and 969 is the codes you mentioned, so who knows if that could be the culprit?

So the 59AVi plays PAL DVD's, I wasn't sure about that!

The only difference would be that PAL outputs black at 0ire and not 7.5, so I wonder if that'll have any effect on anything? It shouldn't do, but if you're getting other things affecting DVI which it shouldn't do, then who knows what could happen!

Gary.

originally posted by joe12south

Tom, thanks. You are of course correct, since the top of a 2.35:1 image is just going to be dead black pixels I can shift the picture up ... I didn't think of that when I posted.

Joe:

I have the same set-up and operate in the same way - although with a different projector. This set-up works great for me, and I'm sure you will love it.

But a couple of cautions:

Remember that you will need extra drop (black area) or masking below the viewable area of your screen. That's where all the black bars will now be, and although the Optoma's blacks are excellent, there will still be a fair amount of light reflected if you don't have anything to soak it up. If you are planning on keeping scope images centered on the panel and using lens shift to adjust, then the same goes for above your screen. Also, make sure that the electronic height adjustment operates on the inputs and resolutions that you plan to use - ie. DVI, HD resolutions, etc. I'm not sure about the Optoma, but I know that Infocus limits this control to only the computer input.

And remember to take into account overscan. If the Optoma has any overscan, that will change the ratio of scope images. They will be slightly narrower or taller. The sides will be slightly cropped, but on the top and bottom, only the LB bars will be cropped, not the image. There is nothing wrong with this, but if you simply order 2.35:1 screen, a scope image from your projector may not match it precisely. I would suggest that you get the PJ first, and then measure the size of the scope image that it throws to order your screen. Try several scope movies, many are mastered to DVD at 2.4:1. You will need to decide which size you want the screen to match. You can also measure how much drop you need on the top and bottom.

Constant height is the way to go! No one ever goes back.

Pip

Here's that THX brightness pattern on my H77. Pictures came out sparkly but grayscale looks good.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/thx1.jpg

Got my PAL H77 back from having a firmware fix 2 days ago. Have tweaked away and watched movies for a couple of days and I'm happy to say that they have completely fixed the banding issue.

I was enjoying the picture before and now I'm even happier. I have no problem seeing the below black bars and the THX drop shadow with my 3910 over DVI also.

I have c14 firmware PAL so now wondering what c16 would add still further? Any ideas Tom?

I know the H77 had to go back to Optoma for the last upgrade because they were upgrading something on the board also, but have seen at least one person hint that they upgraded their own firmware...hope they allow us to do this in future.

Huge credit to Optoma for producing such a great projector at such an affordable price.

Happy viewing ahead...

Ian Guinan

Originally posted by Guinan
Got my PAL H77 back from having a firmware fix 2 days ago. Have tweaked away and watched movies for a couple of days and I'm happy to say that they have completely fixed the banding issue.


Good to hear you agree with my and other c14 owners that the problem is gone. It is however possible to get some banding that can be tuned with the color wheel index in the service menu. I was/am wondering if these are set per unit could you check for me what this value was at (mine was at 33) and if you needed to tune it? (mine works better at 29).


I was enjoying the picture before and now I'm even happier. I have no problem seeing the below black bars and the THX drop shadow with my 3910 over DVI also.

I have c14 firmware PAL so now wondering what c16 would add still further? Any ideas Tom?


I have asked optoma uk about this and i am guessing Tom is mistaken that its aimed for PAL mostly, They say there is no firmware with the C16 title in the works for the PAL version at this time. Since there was no C14 for ntsc users im guessing we will see a C18/PAL hehe instead of a C16.

I do know they are working on some small issues so we will see more firmwares.


I know the H77 had to go back to Optoma for the last upgrade because they were upgrading something on the board also, but have seen at least one person hint that they upgraded their own firmware...hope they allow us to do this in future.


They will never come out and say this for (c) reasons allready talked about, it _should_ be installed by them or maybe a dealer :).


Huge credit to Optoma for producing such a great projector at such an affordable price.


I agree but i also still feel they announced and shipped broken versions into europe and then fiddled around for months. It seems they will not do that anymore and a 'default' delay will be added to any pal releases of 3 months to tune it for europe. This doesn't make us happy but atleast we can understand it, they simply jumped the gun and probably trusted the limited PAL testing that was done in the states.

[/B]
Happy viewing ahead...

Ian Guinan [/B]

Could you check something for me ? It seems that the fan speed (and also the colorwheel but that makes sense) is related to hz. I found it to be alot more silent at 50hz than at 60hz is there a way for you to feed it a 60hz signal and see if this is normal on all units ?

Have fun good to see its fixed for you,

Daniel.

Mine came with CWI set to 29 and needed very little adjustment of brightness and contrast to be spot on....maybe it had a bit of extra tlc (TenderLovingCare) at Optoma UK than usual ;)

I'm not complaining about getting mine early..had 2 months of happy viewing whilst they fixed the firmware.

Every dlp I've ever had had a colour wheel that changed in speed according to whether it was 50Hz or 60Hz. One of the reasons for buying PAL disks has to be that there is then less noise from your projector! (you do have to listen pretty acutely to hear it on the H77 though..)

For 'C18 PAL' I'd like them to try and tidy up the menus, get it working a little faster and get rid of some of the hunting around to resync it does from time to time. Other than that I'm a happy fellow.

Ian

Originally posted by Guinan
Mine came with CWI set to 29 and needed very little adjustment of brightness and contrast to be spot on....maybe it had a bit of extra tlc (TenderLovingCare) at Optoma UK than usual ;)

I'm not complaining about getting mine early..had 2 months of happy viewing whilst they fixed the firmware.

Every dlp I've ever had had a colour wheel that changed in speed according to whether it was 50Hz or 60Hz. One of the reasons for buying PAL disks has to be that there is then less noise from your projector! (you do have to listen pretty acutely to hear it on the H77 though..)

For 'C18 PAL' I'd like them to try and tidy up the menus, get it working a little faster and get rid of some of the hunting around to resync it does from time to time. Other than that I'm a happy fellow.

Ian


Well i agree with the colorwheel thing (not all projectors sync to match) but i clearly have the feeling they also put the fans in a higher mode thats why i asked. would be interesting for you or somene else to check for me.

Interesting that yours is at 29 the setting i also found to work the best so either they are all handtuned before shipping or they changed the setting after i told them 29 was better (i doubt that).

Daniel.

Yes the c14 was devised to help PAL users but they install the latest firmwares on all the projectors. Optoma won't be letting users update the firmwares, probably has something to do with the OEM deal ;).

Tech said c16 is just another enhancement for PAL contouring if your pictures looking perfect don't beat the drum or if it ain't broke don't fix it. :)

True the signal syncing could be quicker but it at least does sync up. :)

Glad you're all fixed up. Looks like the mits guys are getting a fix also. Sheesh what to we do now that there's nothing to complain about? ;)

Hey at least Optoma could come up with a raffle deal by serial number, winner gets the next top model with an automated IRIS.

Thinking of how many of these your posts have sold for Optoma Tom then I wouldn't be surprised if your number came up first ;)

Off to watch another movie.....Return Of The King Extended should be with me soon, and all 3 Matrices to watch too this week...

Regards,

Ian Guinan

Originally posted by Guinan
Thinking of how many of these your posts have sold for Optoma Tom then I wouldn't be surprised if your number came up first ;)

Off to watch another movie.....Return Of The King Extended should be with me soon, and all 3 Matrices to watch too this week...

Regards,

Ian Guinan

The classic statement will be "This thing sells itself"

Dharp,

I am in singapore and my H77 is using the original C08/NTSC firmware. The 969 is region free BUT I have tested a region locked (rehion 3) 969 and that worked fine too.

Originally posted by guitarman
Here's that THX brightness pattern on my H77. Pictures came out sparkly but grayscale looks good.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/thx1.jpg

Guitarman,

the grayscale doesn't look very accurate, I think. The three lighter grays get merged with white. No border at all amongst them. The same thing for the fourth darker grays and black.

Could be my screen calibration?

Cheers

Juan

Juan, that's the whites. They're ok and not crushing when viewing the white boxes pattern. Actually I'd have to go pretty high on the contrast to crush them out.

I was speaking of the color tone of the gray boxes on the sides of the brightness pattern. Someone's post earlier showed some odd colors in these boxes.

Originally posted by Craig Peer
" Dang Tom, how much does Optoma pay you anyway, hehehe!?!?!? " -

Having met Tom, and having run his H77 through it's paces while A / B'ing my HT1000 at the same time, I can vouch for the fact that his H77 looked better than my HT1000. And I don't even know anybody at Optoma : )

Craig...

You probably have stated the differences, but maybe you could repeat.

In what ways did you find the H77 a better performer than the HT1000?

;)

In my opinion, the colors were somewhat richer, and the resolution was obviously much improved. And it was even quieter than the HT1000. I didn't see any negatives. We A/B'd them back and forth using a component splitter and covering one lens with cardboard.

Worth the upgrade would you say Craig?

I'm curious about the contrast though - the H77 claims 3500 which is obviously uncalibrated, and I'm waiting to find out what it can genuinly achieve at D65. I've a feeling it'll need a filter as the blue is quite high and needed dropping back a fair bit.

Gary.

I'd say it's worth the upgrade.

Originally posted by Craig Peer
I'd say it's worth the upgrade.

Thanks Craig...

I'm really trying to hold out for atleast a HT300E level upgrade, to all but eliminate the pixel structure.

But I am very tempted to save the cabbage, and consider the H77 and a couple of others.

I'm gonna go see a Domino 30 and HT300E demo. This should be a pretty good comparison as far as something like the H77 versus the HT300E, although I would expect the H77 to have nice contrast.

Boy, this hobby sure is fun. :D

Originally posted by Bytehoven

Boy, this hobby sure is fun. :D

And expensive. :)

Gary.

I'm really trying to hold out for atleast a HT300E level upgrade, to all but eliminate the pixel structure.
You could always opt for the H77 and IMX combo, and save some cabbage also. Especially with the Power Buy. ;)

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Thanks Craig...

I'm really trying to hold out for atleast a HT300E level upgrade, to all but eliminate the pixel structure.

But I am very tempted to save the cabbage, and consider the H77 and a couple of others.

I'm gonna go see a Domino 30 and HT300E demo. This should be a pretty good comparison as far as something like the H77 versus the HT300E, although I would expect the H77 to have nice contrast.

Boy, this hobby sure is fun. :D

The first thing new users are liking in the H77 is it's brightness over the other models which may seem a little dim in comparison. This extra brightness while still retaining deep deep black makes a good recipe for vivid contrast. Being it's bright yet still deep in the black department the colors take on a very strong effect.

This is why you get the oh my! comments when new users first receive their machines.

Hope that helps I see you're ready to make the move.

Fun and expensive - I'll 2nd that! I decided to save even more and get a H76 off of eBay after hearing from those who had seen both the H77 and the H76 side by side that there wasn't much difference. Of course I spent more than my savings on the H1000 lens Powerbuy and the DVDO HD Powerbuy with free SDI. Not to mention adding SDI to my RP56 dvd player. Now, if all these items combined don't give me an outstanding picture on a new dedicated 2.35:1 screen, I don't know what will!

Thanks for the explanation Tom.

Have anybody tested the H-77 feeding with a Denon 3910 at 720p? It's one of my combinations for my future ht.

cheers

Juan

I think some people were having problems with the Denon 3910 - can't remember the specifics, but try the search. I think Messiah had a black level problem which he resolved - something to do with the analogue settings affecting the DVI black level (which it shouldn't do).

Gary.

Juan,

I have a Denon 3910 feeding a H-77. Works fine for me. I am using a HDMI to DVI cable.

Tahk you very much Gary and Huhg.

Hugh as I suppose, you output DVD 720 p or 1080i. But with non HD sources, do you miss a proccessor for deinterlacing or scaling for getting the same PQ as DVD?

Regards

Juan

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
I think some people were having problems with the Denon 3910 - can't remember the specifics, but try the search. I think Messiah had a black level problem which he resolved - something to do with the analogue settings affecting the DVI black level (which it shouldn't do).

Gary.

From what I remember he just switched from enhanced to normal in the denon's picture settings. Things got real technical on the out come but since the change made the white bars appear that should cover it. The PJ was receiving the right voltage which is good enough. :)

Interesting thing is I'm testing the NEC HT510 today and had a Phillps Q50 going with components and set to interlaced. Running Avia my white bars were not there and a quick change in the picture settings from Rich to natural of personal brought them back. So for some reason the Rich color setting on the Q50 wasn't sending the right voltage. Oh and when the white bars weren't there no matter how I moving the contrast or brightness settings I could never get them to appear.

Maybe the Denon users have menu color settings that could alter the voltage also. Messiah may try switching thru a few for a test.

Juan,

I use the 720p output of the 3910 connected directly to the H77 using a HDMI to DVI cable. I also have a HDTV tuner that I have connected via component that is routed through my Pioneer 56TXi receiver. Those are the only inputs that I am currently using. I started a thread over in the DVD player section to discuss the 3910 video output. You can find more details there if you are interested.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=477052

Juan,

I am using a Denon 2910 to feed my H77 at 720p with a DVI to DVI connection.

It works just fine and never has any problem with sync.

Resolution is smoother than 480i or 480p. For me, the test has always been the opening credits in Toy Story 2. There are big titles that appear on the screen and then seem to tilt and zoom towards the camera. At 480 with all DVD players and displays I have ever owned, the horizontal lines in the letters show some jaggies as they tilt and are no longer horizontal. With the 2910 @ 720p, the lines look completely smooth regardless of angle.

I have no reason to believe that the 3910 would behave any differently with the H77.

Ira

I've benn watching the NEc 510 xga PJ all day and just switched back to the H77 during Monday Night Football. You gotta be kiding me! this is a flawless projector. Smooth as butter, pixels gone bye bye :). And what about these blacks and the color red. Whoa ruff ruff

Get one if you can. :)

Hi

I've been following this thread with interest for a while and thought I'd share my experiences. My unit is Pal C14 (UK).

I am seeing some colour banding issues but they are minor and I suspect in the 'all DLPs do this' range. An obvious test is the 'Discoverers' sample from wmvhd.com - the sped up sunrise/set scene and I can see it on the cave scene in LOTR. This does not happen on a CRT monitor, but it's not bothering me except when I look out for it. If the rumoured C16 improves things further, then great.

I also notice an increase in noise with 60Hz meterial. Not sure if it is fan or colourwheel noise though (suspect the latter as the wheel speed would change with frequency).

Colour wheel index shipped at 33 and after much tweaking, this was the best setting on my machine.

Clay face was unacceptable until I turned off the noise filter in the service menu.

Internal de-interlacer is OK, but not perfect - some dottiness around text and some blockiness on certain cable TV broadcasts. Probably an interaction with low bitrate material, but dscaler manages to hide it better. I don't think it's the scaler as I still see it in native mode and I don't see it on progressive DVD. Contrast range is better than I can achieve on PC (dscaler/Flyvideo 2000) no matter how much I calibrate/tweak, so I will probably stick with the projectors own inputs.

Progressive component DVD from from cheapish Pioneer DV-575 looks very close to Theatertek via PC (just a little video shadowing/noise). Not enough difference to bother firing up the PC or upgrading to an HDMI player.

One slight disappointment - the unit does not support RGB scart. Odd, since the downloadable manual lists a scart-HD15 adaptor and I got one in the box. Optoma customer services told me the machine doesn't support it due to sync level on scart rgb and said I shouldn't have recieved the adaptor. The manual I got in the box doesn't list the adaptor either. I have now purchased an RGB scart>component video transcoder and it looks great.

My previous machine was a crt. It's not comfortable to watch the H77 as close as that machine (1.2 x screen width) due I think to (i) increased effect of rainbows as my eyes dart around the screen and (ii) noise in the image is more obvious - maybe crt's slight softness helps here. Anyway, 1.7x is a more sensible distance.

I was using a Da-Lite video spectra screen. This is 1.5 gain screen using minaturised glass beads. This did not work well at all. Compared to a matt white screen, it raised the black level to a bothersome level, amplified rainbows and sparkled in a way that doesn't occur with CRT, LCD or DILA on the same screen. Could this be mirrors catching individual beads as they swing back/forth ?

I love the contrast/pop & colours which beat the crt easily (though I have seen other crts which match the H77). I will be totally happy if I can learn to filter out rainbows (still seeing them after 2 weeks).


Leigh

"I am seeing some colour banding issues but they are minor and I suspect in the 'all DLPs do this' range."

Amen to that, any 1chip dlp you get will show some slight contour in certain scenes. Real glad C14 did away with that heavy banding of the U571 shot (glowing light in a dark cavern) chap/Triggers job.

Thx for the screen tip. I already have a mat white. It's a middle of the road type gain. We still haven't concluded the best match. Firehawk, High Power etc.

True VS is sparkly, it was my first screen material.

I picked up my H77 (sw: C14) a couple of days ago and here are my initial thoughts:

One thing that impressed me right from the start was the very low noise this thing makes. It's almost quiet!

Initially I only had an old Pioneer DVD-player with s-video available to test. I put in Gladiator to run some quick tests and it looked horrible! The color banding issue was everywhere in the universal logo and opening titles. This was dissapointing as I thought it was fixed! The next day I plugged in my Pioneer DV-575A with component video. The color banding was now much less visible. It was still there, but almost acceptable now. After a quick calibration the picture was awesome! (some color-banding, but this might be reduced with new firmware perhaps.. or it might be typical DLP)

I still havn't tested HD material, but I guess it will look even better.

One thing that disappointed me a bit was the lens-shift. My previous projector had an offset of 17 degrees, so that the image would end up a fair amount below the lens. Now it is almost zero degrees. This makes it a bit more difficult to place, but I guess I'll have to work something out ;)

Re the lens shift, yes it does just move the image 6 or 7" up from the center line. But it does do a 100% move. I was able to ceiling mount on a shelf straight up and lower the image all the way down to line up with the screen.

As far as contouring you s/b ok with c14. You can tweak a little with the CWI. Lowering a few numbers may work better for you.

Can't see much dithering in the blacks, can you? :)

Pretty nice colors and brightness also, don't you think?

guitarman: It's got awesome colors and the brightness is great! I really love it.

But I think the lensshift would have been better if it had worked as stated in the picture in the manual. :)

Originally posted by nortonl


Clay face was unacceptable until I turned off the noise filter in the service menu.

Leigh

This seems like an important data point. I don't think I have seen anyone else mention that there is a noise filter setting in the service menu or that turning it off has an effect on the "clay face" issue.

I wish I could try this on my own H77 right now, but I'm in Tokyo until Friday. As soon as I get home, this is the first thing I'm going to try.

Leigh, can you tell us how to navigate to the correct service menu to get to the noise filter setting? Most of us know how to get into the service menu already, but it would be helpful if you could indicate which sub-menu to look at.

Thanks all,
Ira

Ira,

I've tried the noise filter on numerous occasions and after each FW download and at least in my case, it has not done anything for the "Clay Face" issue:(

I just tried it again last night as a matter of fact after reading that quote, still no go.

Hi Ira

I think it's on the first level.


Leigh

Finaly received my H77 last night and hurriedly set it up....WOW very bright after my HS10 and the picture is amazing.

Did have to change quite a few settings to get rid of the banding issues and my CWI was factory set to 28 with a FW c14.

At the moment im projecting onto a white wall untill my screen arrives from Carada so will have a proper calibrating session then.Theres champions league on TV tonight so i'll have a few beers and watch liverpool beat Oylmpiakos :D


will right more when ive had time to play

Respectamonkee (luv the name :) ), glad to hear more good things from the European owners. What are your sources? I'm coming from an HS10 and 20 also and hoping to see a big improvement, mainly in black level and contrast. After extended viewing with a Sharp 12k, I'm a true DLP convert (and yes, I see rainbows!).

Silverstar came yesterday, Denon comes today and H77 should be here tomorrow (struggling to justify an Iscan HD or HD+ :confused: ). Then I'll get to see what all the noise is about.

Have a few beers for me also :cool:

Originally posted by Respectamonkeee
Finaly received my H77 last night and hurriedly set it up....WOW very bright after my HS10 and the picture is amazing.

Did have to change quite a few settings to get rid of the banding issues and my CWI was factory set to 28 with a FW c14.

At the moment im projecting onto a white wall untill my screen arrives from Carada so will have a proper calibrating session then.Theres champions league on TV tonight so i'll have a few beers and watch liverpool beat Oylmpiakos :D


will right more when ive had time to play

Glad you like the projector. Right, there's something about a super high end DLP projector, all of them from Sharp to Marantz, Seleco, Optoma. They have a look of their own. Pow! Zap! & all the other explicatory's. :)
enjoy

Originally posted by Cilent1
Respectamonkee (luv the name :) ), glad to hear more good things from the European owners. What are your sources? I'm coming from an HS10 and 20 also and hoping to see a big improvement, mainly in black level and contrast. After extended viewing with a Sharp 12k, I'm a true DLP convert (and yes, I see rainbows!).

Silverstar came yesterday, Denon comes today and H77 should be here tomorrow (struggling to justify an Iscan HD or HD+ :confused: ). Then I'll get to see what all the noise is about.

Have a few beers for me also :cool:

Quick message since im overworked but ill probaby get the iscanHD+ tommorow and can provide some feedback in a few days what it does for a H77/denon combo.

Daniel.

Originally posted by iblumberg
This seems like an important data point. I don't think I have seen anyone else mention that there is a noise filter setting in the service menu or that turning it off has an effect on the "clay face" issue.

I wish I could try this on my own H77 right now, but I'm in Tokyo until Friday. As soon as I get home, this is the first thing I'm going to try.

Leigh, can you tell us how to navigate to the correct service menu to get to the noise filter setting? Most of us know how to get into the service menu already, but it would be helpful if you could indicate which sub-menu to look at.

Thanks all,
Ira

Well all the settings on that menu handle with the internal trident scaler, we all checked over dvi (well a few of us) and assumed that menu would not do anything. I did some testing and i don't see any change over dvi (makes sense) but do see changes over other inputs. Will i hope get a dvdo hd+ scaler today giving me some more options to test.

Daniel.

danielo, look forward to hearing your impressions of the HD+, especially scaling to 720P vs. the denon's scaler and the H77's. Also scaling of 1080i material compared to the Optoma scaling. If the results are very impressive don't tell me! I don't think my wife will understand if UPS brings another package here! :p

I would also be interested in your findings. The on-board inputs seem to be well set-up with respect to black/white level/dynamic range. I can't get my HTPC/Flyvideo/DScaler to look as good in this respect, so I'm sticking with the on-board for now even though DScaler does a better job of processing in other respects. Otherwise, I would order a Sweetspot (PDI Deluxe).

I currently have a HT1000 (Due to Guitarman's incessant posting about how great it was for the price... good thing he was right :)).

For various reasons my PJ must be ceiling mounted - due to the large throw offset my HT1000 is very tight to the ceiling (basically right on it) and my screen is down 21" from the ceiling.

I've got the itch to upgrade (my wallet is afraid of guitarman...) and feel the H77 is the best combination of features and price going right now. EXCEPT the throw offset. At +/- 100%, the lens has to be level with the top of my screen - which means the PJ must hang down 21" from my ceiling. With an 8' ceiling and an almost 2' drop it would be only 6' off the ground! For my screen it's about a 13' throw distance and that places it right above my seating. That's unacceptable (and I'm not even a really tall person).

How are all of you owners dealing with this? Are you ceiling mounting? Anyone want to recommend a similar PJ to the H77 that has a larger offset?

You can't raise your screen a little? Not much has the offset the HT1000 has. In my case I'm mounting both a HT1000 and an H76 ( same offset as the H77 ) and the H76 will be about 6'high ( maybe a smidge higher ) but in a soffit and just behind the couch so it won't be in anyones way. The HT1000 of course will be screwed as tight to the ceiling above it as possible !!!

Originally posted by dstroot
I currently have a HT1000 (Due to Guitarman's incessant posting about how great it was for the price... good thing he was right :)).

For various reasons my PJ must be ceiling mounted - due to the large throw offset my HT1000 is very tight to the ceiling (basically right on it) and my screen is down 21" from the ceiling.

I've got the itch to upgrade (my wallet is afraid of guitarman...) and feel the H77 is the best combination of features and price going right now. EXCEPT the throw offset. At +/- 100%, the lens has to be level with the top of my screen - which means the PJ must hang down 21" from my ceiling. With an 8' ceiling and an almost 2' drop it would be only 6' off the ground! For my screen it's about a 13' throw distance and that places it right above my seating. That's unacceptable (and I'm not even a really tall person).

How are all of you owners dealing with this? Are you ceiling mounting? Anyone want to recommend a similar PJ to the H77 that has a larger offset? \

With the lens shift you can add a 6" angle to the offset. They do recommend using a 6" extension. I use that size with a chief mount and it's enough head room. My ceiling height is about 7' 9", screen starts near 14" down from the ceiling.

720p, there's an interesting article in Home Theater Mag this month by Geoffrey Morrison about resolution you can actually see. What he's saying is 720p is about good enough and you're hard pressed to actually see the difference with 1080 res.

Originally posted by guitarman
\...What he's saying is 720p is about good enough and you're hard pressed to actually see the difference with 1080 res.

Yep... I know it's heresy to many on these boards (DaVId ;) ) but I actually agree. Sports are hopefully going to continue to be native 720p, 720p is WAY above native DVD resolution today, and my screen is only 85" wide and I set about 13-14 feet back. Plus downscaling is inherently easier/better than upscaling - i.e. it's OK to downscale 1080 to 720 and you still get a pretty good image - harder to upscale because you are "creating" data.

I personally think 720p is pretty darn good.

You should read the article, he's got all these math numbers trying to prove it.

Just as an update (sorry, not been following this thread for a while). I fixed the no black/white bars issue by switching from a HDMI>DVI cable to a straight DVI>DVI one. I also fiddled in the menus, not changed anything but switching Normal/Enhamced on and off a few times and now all is well :)

Only slight niggle is poor shadow detail compatred to my previous S3. Some more tweaking may improve this but overall, like others, I am now over the moon with this pj. Sorted the final image shift issue using the Horizontal shift option in the signal menu so now all my sources display perfectly on the screen.

As a final note, I A/B'd Alien vs Predator tonight between the 3910 set to 720p and my HTPC using TT2.05. The 3910 is as good as the HTPC in every respect. It's awesome :D

Has anyone managed to get direct IR codes for the format options yet? That would just be awesome to program them in to my macros and save having to use the silly menu option. Thanks.

I did ask about them, he said he could work out a download but it never panned out. Techs back in Taiwan this week. They spend most of their time working out new items. It's painful but i'll bring it up next week when we talk.

UPS dropped the goods off today :D . Can someone refresh my memory and tell me how to access the service menu. I'd like to check the firmware when I fire it up.

Has anyone else's H77 come with an HDMI - DVI adapter?

Originally posted by Cilent1
UPS dropped the goods off today :D . Can someone refresh my memory and tell me how to access the service menu. I'd like to check the firmware when I fire it up.

Has anyone else's H77 come with an HDMI - DVI adapter?

Resync, Source, enter on the unit at the same time. all lights should go on and menu
should appear.

Yes all H77 come with hdmi->dvi cable changer (the unit does support hdmi native just not the plug).

Daniel.

Originally posted by Cilent1
UPS dropped the goods off today :D . Can someone refresh my memory and tell me how to access the service menu. I'd like to check the firmware when I fire it up.

Has anyone else's H77 come with an HDMI - DVI adapter?

That's it, what about the picture quality? :) Is it washed out/bent out of shape etc lol

I have H77 and Pioneer 668 combination with hdmi-dvi signal. Generally I'm quite happy with PQ, but fast pannings in dark scenes bother me sometimes. I've got rid of the banding and smearing, but not the panning problem. It seems it is always there, more or less. And I think the problem is worse than it was in H30. The only solutions so far which help for the panning problems (at least a little) are brightness (-12) and sharpness (1).

Has anyone tried NGD Efficiency option? Or Motion Detection? I tried those both but they didn't seem to have any kind of effect.

I had a chance to see an H77 with the new firmware today, and tried U571 with the scene that shows the banding. It was still there on this unit, but considerably reduced. The color wheel index was at 30 on this model, though we tried it at 28 which seemed a tad better.

I then thought I'd try an experiment, so we used an nd filter to reduce the lumen's output form the pj, and the banding disappeared. The filter was a bit too strong so a lower value or recalibration may have been better (I didn't have time to play too much), but I think that if a color correction filter was used, it would help reduce the blue push optically as well as reduce the banding.

The screen was 88ins wide with a gain of 1.3 IRC. The pj was in low lamp mode too. I do wonder if this banding issue would look worse on smaller screens? Brighter pjs do seem to bring out artifacts and other issues more so than dimmer ones, so I wonder if this exacerbates the issue?

Gary.

Sorry Tom, it was about 3:30am when I finally got the thing mounted. I haven't done any serious viewing yet. Popped in a couple of discs last night just to have a look. I thought I would just check out a few scenes of some movies I have used for demo purposes since I know what they should look like. Well, I didn't get past the second clip (SW-AOTC)! I kept gawking at how smooth and seamless the image looked. There were parts when Obi Wan was walking through a dark cave and I remember being pissed before because I would only see a grey blob and no cape at all. Now I could see the folds in his cape separated from the darkness, and lots of subtleties in the cave that were just greyed out before. I am used to the pic looking sort of flat. But the H77's pic has depth that just makes the image pop. VERY NICE.

Caught about 20 minutes of SportsCenter HD last night :eek: . It was at that point I had to go to bed. HD looked good before on my setup, but the image took on another dimension with the H77. Saturation of colors, blacklevel, all MUCH better than what I'm used to.

I'm going to try to mount the Silverstar today and really take it for a test drive this weekend. Initial viewing was just on my GOO Screen. But after this brief session I can say the image is better than I had hoped for. I can't say that I saw any contouring or banding to speak of. And I was looking for it (thanks to this forum :rolleyes: ). It was hard to do a critical preliminary evaluation because I kept getting caught up in just watching the picture (good sign for me!). Be back with detailed impressions after some serious screening the weekend!

p.s. It's not as ugly as I thought it was going to be :p

Regards

Sounds good, I don't find it ugly either. It's has a digital look, like a giant pixel. :)
That thick chassis has the sound chamber corridors inside. Makes it nice and quiet.

Your impressions are similar to mine. Just what I was looking for, giant steps up in blacks and colors, yet it's got brightness also.

Originally posted by Respectamonkeee
Did have to change quite a few settings to get rid of the banding issues and my CWI was factory set to 28 with a FW c14.


What settings did you change to get rid of the banding issues?
I'm gonna do a proper calibration next weekend and tips on improving banding would be very welcome.

Go into the service menu, and look for CWI. It might be set at anything from 28 to 33, but lower seems to reduce the banding. I also found that adding a neutral density filter will remove it all together, but you'll have to find the one that doesn't darken the image too much. A 2x (0.3) filter effectively halves the brightness and is too much in my opinion.

Using a yellow color correction filter may reduce the brightness enough as well as correct the blue push the lamp seems to have.

Someone also mentioned turning off the noise filter in the menu, but I forgot to try that when I was getting a second demo with it.

Gary.

Has anyone got any post calibration contrast ratio results for the H77 yet? I've just measured my NEC HT1000 at between 1833:1 and 2000:1 at D65, so I'm curious if a higher figure is capable from the H77 (at D65).

Gary.

Gary,

Li On has just posted some results for the Mits D2010/HC2000
on this link:-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439351

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Someone also mentioned turning off the noise filter in the menu, but I forgot to try that when I was getting a second demo with it.

I tried it, but it seems it doesn't have any effect on dvi signal. At least not any significant difference. But the effect on s-video was quite clear. And not bad at all IMO.

But anyone hasn't stated yet what is the effect of NGD Efficiency option or Motion Detection. On fast comparison I didn't notice any real difference. But I was only watching the panning issue, which bothers me most.

Hi Pixel,

I've literally just read that thread - 2800:1 is pretty good!

If the H77 is able to produce similar results, I would think that even further gains could be made with a yellow filter, as that would mean not having to reduce the blue contrast so much.

mnederst,

I guess DVI is literally straight through from the PC, so many options are bypassed. It's the same with the NEC HT1000.

Gary.

Hello,

I have just receive my new H77. Here some screenshot : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/s2_screen_H77MK2.html (1280*720@60Hz DVI with HTPC)

The result is really better than my first H77! :)

Now those are some exceptionly impressive pictures!

I think you've taken Toms mantel for best picture taker!!

I don't think I've ever seen pictures look that natural or detailed on a forum before. Have you calibratedit or was that straight out of the box?? The whites look a little blown out, but that may just be the camera.

Gary.

Looks good Nico, nice to have that banding out of there. Let us know what you get with colorfacts, mainly CR at D65?

Nico - WOW! Wow, wow, wow... and wow again!

Great pictures! Tres Bien!

- Dan

Wonder if folks are mainly using the H77 in brightmode or normal? I had some guests over last night and decided to switch on the unit to brightmore. Wow. The unit makes a little more noise, but the picture was "even more" fantastic. SJ

Hi,

I am using the H77 on a 92" diagonal grayhawk RS. I have been using normal mode all these while and it looks very bright under light control conditions.

Finally got screen up and... well, I really don't know what to say that already has not been said about this PJ. This thing is da shiznit ! I don't see how you could get a better pic for the money. Watching D-VHS has never been more engrossing than when I watched last night. This is also the first DLP that I have yet to see any rainbows.

I think a 110" screen would be the max I'd go without any sort of gain. My previous screen was 117" and about .8 gain. The H77 looked good at that size but as the lamp ages I think it would lose some snap. Now this thing looks like a giant plasma. The Silverstar and H77 is an awesome combo! Watching on low lamp mode the pic is very bright and colors just pop off the screen.

Colors out of the box need some tweaking though. I can only imagine what the pq will be after a good calibration. So far I've only touched up the contrast and brightness with Avia. I've got DVE but damn it's hard to navigate through (tips anyone?).

Thanks to all those who I have bugged with endless PM's trying to get information. Without your help I would not have been able to make such a good decision. It's going to be hard trying to convince the wife of the next upgrade, even SHE was blown away. I'll stop now, don't want people to think I work with Tom over at Optoma :D

"I've got DVE but damn it's hard to navigate through (tips anyone?)."

Yeah, dump it. I'd be damned if I'm going to watch that lady in the restaurant every time I want to navigate DVE. ;)

Glad the H77 worked out, How could it fail? It amazed me way back we that we had a couple of disgruntled users. One picked up the Sony HS51 but I'll bet that will be going back with the no 1.1 digital input crop.
enjoy

I thought I was doing something wrong with DVE. You actually have to watch all that stuff everytime you want to use it :rolleyes: ?

Yea, I actually held off awhile after reading the bad experiences from a couple users. I consider myself pretty anal when it comes to PQ, but I am totally blown away from the image I get from the H77.

I thought I would get a later FW than I got but I only have version C08. Is there any reason to get the update right now if I don't have any complaints? Tom didn't you have C08? Have you sent your PJ out yet? Can you tell a difference with the later FW version?

Someone please tell me that I am not the only person who has turned on the PJ and watched for awhile before noticing I had left the lens cap on!! :p What's so funny is that it didn't look all that bad!

Nope, I've done that too. :D

Didn't half give me a fright at the time - thought the blessed thing was broken! Didn't take me long to realise what had happened though.

Gary.

The lens cap, funny I did that once. I think Evan Powell at PC did his revies with the cap on. ;)

Later firmwares added letterbox support and contour fix for PAL. I hv C08 and don't need Letterbox support with the Bravo, the Bravo handles it.. It's a nice feature for a projector to have so you may want to get it. You can have your dealer do it if he's knowledgeable.

Originally posted by guitarman
[BIt's a nice feature for a projector to have so you may want to get it. You can have your dealer do it if he's knowledgeable. [/B] Now Tom, that's contrary to what's been said in the past, along with all the reasons why they won't do it. Will they let a dealer do it now??? My dealer is a far better choice that shipping a fragile expensive PJ on a 6000 mile trip to CA and have them do it.

Scott, 6000 miles is not so bad compared to coming all the way from Taiwan! Just make sure you send it by air and not ground, double boxed and insured. The PJ should be fine. I've sent my previous PJ's across country for service and they all have come back without a scratch. It does help to have the UPS hub down the street I guess. At the hub they even double box the PJ for you really well.

It would be nice if they let the users update the firmware. Didn't Dave Harper update his own FW? (Where is Dave, did he jump ship and get Alan's SIM 300!)

Well, I got home and tried turning off the noise filter and motion detection and a few other options. Sadly, none of them improved the clay face at all using a DVI input at 720p.

I have noticed a related artifact, also fairly minor, but still annoying. On the same types of pans that cause clay face, if the subject matter is a somewhat grainy film, the the pan will produce something that looks a bit like a herring bone pattern.

Oh well, I will some day get Optoma to update my firmware and at that time, I will raise the whole clay face issue to see if there is any fix.

Overall, I'm still enjoying the PJ quite a bit. My wife and I spent 12 of the last 48 hours watching the first half of season 3 of 24. Other than that fact that the camera work does include lots of small artifact inducing pans, it was glorious to watch the series on a 92" wide screen.

Ira

This thing has a lens cap?

... Hot Dang, that's much better now.

Cilent1,
You can navigate DVE without watching the annoying lady or the roller coaster ride, but you do have to go through several steps to get to the reference screens. Go to the top level menu, then to Program Guide, then to Reference Materials, then to title 12. I think that chapter 14 is the gray ramp.

For DVE navigation, I just press the chapter skip button until I reach the reference material chapter. Pretty fast, takes like 10 seconds? I am pretty sure you can access the test patterns directly.

Yes, they said they would trust it to a dealer that's use to doing firmwares.

Clay face, never saw it.

It would be nice if they let the users update the firmware. I agree (again) but the next best thing would be for a dealer to do it. Then if the dealer knew you, one might get extra help in getting it done without so much shipping with housecall or visit in car, etc.. Worst case at that point is THEN it could go on it's trip Didn't Dave Harper update his own FW? He has some industry insider friends who hooked him up with some proprietary stuff.

Just wanted to be sure Tom found out a dealer can do it now.

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by iblumberg
Well, I got home and tried turning off the noise filter and motion detection and a few other options. Sadly, none of them improved the clay face at all using a DVI input at 720p.

I have noticed a related artifact, also fairly minor, but still annoying. On the same types of pans that cause clay face, if the subject matter is a somewhat grainy film, the the pan will produce something that looks a bit like a herring bone pattern.

Oh well, I will some day get Optoma to update my firmware and at that time, I will raise the whole clay face issue to see if there is any fix.

Overall, I'm still enjoying the PJ quite a bit. My wife and I spent 12 of the last 48 hours watching the first half of season 3 of 24. Other than that fact that the camera work does include lots of small artifact inducing pans, it was glorious to watch the series on a 92" wide screen.

Ira

Excuse my ignorance, but I've heard the term "Clay Face" used before and I don't really understand what it's referring to. Could someone please enlighten me. (Maybe I'd be better off not knowing, as I've found in the past knowing what an artifact is can often make it that much more noticable)

Originally posted by iblumberg
I have noticed a related artifact, also fairly minor, but still annoying. On the same types of pans that cause clay face, if the subject matter is a somewhat grainy film, the the pan will produce something that looks a bit like a herring bone pattern.

I have noticed the same thing. Grainy film material can look really terrible. Yesterday I watched also H57, and these motion artifacts were much less visible. I think the problem is in the color wheel of H77 and the 5x speed of it. Someone told that this thing could be fixed in Mitsubishi 2000 by dropping the speed of the color wheel from 5x to 4x. If there will be firmware for Optoma which can do this, I would bet it will fix this panning problem.

It's a damn shame, because otherwise this projector would be so good. Much better than in H57. When the picture is almost perfect in every area, one little artifact can be very annoying.

Naah, I see no flaws on the NTSC H77. No flaws at all.

Thanks Hugh and atlantkh, I'll try navigating DVE again tonight. I'm having a hard time trying to dial in the contrast. Not sure where to set it. With Avia no matter how high or low I set it the right bar is still visible (although not by much).

I watched about 6 hours straight last night and really can't find any of the artifacts that some are bothered by. After awhile I just stopped looking for them. During MNF I saw no panning problems. I"m not sure what "clay face" is exactly and I think I'll stay ignorant on that issue!

HD looks sooo good on this thing. I know hidef makes almost anything look good, but with the contrast and black level of the Optoma the pq has so much more depth (have I mentioned that before). You guys who've made the H77 your first PJ are spoiled! Try watching Underworld or Dark City on an LCD and you'll be begging to have your "clay face" artifacts back :p .

I asked Guy Kuo about digitals and the contrast setting. He said use the all white pattern and make it so the right moving bar is half the brightness the left.

HDTV for me I have to use my eye on setting the bright and contrast. For brightness I'll wait for a letterbox image and lower the brightness to make the side blacks bar match the lower black bars and maybe a tad up for some black detail.

Direct TV does have that HDTV tuneup in the morning on HD-net.

Originally posted by guitarman
Naah, I see no flaws on the NTSC H77. No flaws at all.

Have you ever compared H77 to H30 on dark & fast panning scenes? Do you see any difference? If yes, which one is better on your opinion?

I asked because I think even H30 is clearly better in fast pannings. And I think the reason for this is the difference in color wheel. That would explain also why H57 and H30 looked identical on this issue. They both have the 6 segment wheel and 4x refresh rate, when H77 has 8 segment and 5x. Hence H77 demands much more processing power which can cause these problems, I guess.

I ran tests on all the scenes that bothered posters, hdtv, dvd clips etc. Checked them all with the NEC, 410, 510, H30, H31, H77. Panning reactions were the same on all the PJ's, contours were similar also.

Originally posted by Cilent1
...It would be nice if they let the users update the firmware. Didn't Dave Harper update his own FW? (Where is Dave, did he jump ship and get Alan's SIM 300!)

Yes, I did do my own FW. It was pretty straightforward and actually easier than some others I have done. Didn't fix any of my issues, like "Clay Face", with it though:( I also think the colorwheel mentioned a few posts ago is the culprit.

BTW, yes I did jump ship to the Sim2 HT300e and all I can say is...I'm glad I'm all wet now:D!!! Don't get me wrong, the H77 is a great pj and the image was stunning...when it was still with no pans. The clay face was too much for me to live with. The 300e is 1000% better in this regard, probably because of the colorwheel as mentioned. I have to say with my limited time with it so far, this is the best 1 chip DLP I have seen, calibrated and used. I see absolutely no rainbows and the dark chip really helps the fill factor and it has a much more smooth film-like look to it.

The one thing I don't like and miss from my H77 is it is noticeably louder:eek:..and of course I would have liked to have saved the extra $1800 or so I had to spend for the 300e over the H77, but it so far was worth every penny:)

FYI, if Optoma authorizes it, maybe I can do FW upgrades for people on the right coast if they'd like? I still have all the discs for V. c08, c12 and c16 and the loader. I'd love to see if someone else's H77 is more like Tom's and less like mine was, which I suspect may have been defective....for the second time.

Where did the H77 go?

Tom,

I can't really say who it is due to privacy issues, but it was sold through AVS.

Glad you're all set now Dave. I had looked at the 300e (after seeing Alan's photos!), but the throw would not work in my setup. Nice to have the DC3 though. Maybe I can send my PJ to you for a calibration and FW load :) . Just don't tell me if you see any artifacts, right now for me, ignorance is bliss!

Originally posted by mnederst
Have you ever compared H77 to H30 on dark & fast panning scenes? Do you see any difference? If yes, which one is better on your opinion?

I asked because I think even H30 is clearly better in fast pannings. And I think the reason for this is the difference in color wheel. That would explain also why H57 and H30 looked identical on this issue. They both have the 6 segment wheel and 4x refresh rate, when H77 has 8 segment and 5x. Hence H77 demands much more processing power which can cause these problems, I guess.

This got me thinking and ill do some tests tonight, maybe pal will not have these problems because of the 50hz vs 60hz. what i mean is PAL H77 run more at 4x compared to ntsc

5x60=300hz
5x50=250hz
4x60=240hz

we run our H77 at about the same speed as a NTSC in 4x mode. ill try to run the H77 at 75hz tonight and see if i can see some change.

5x75=375hz so should see if this is a cpu/processing issue.


Daniel.

Daniel,

FWIW, I tried DVD with an HTPC at 48Hz and it didn't seem to matter.

Simple update:
I love my H77. I thought I had a contoring issue during some blue underwater scenes. I viewed the same scenes on my laptop and the contoring was every bit as noticable, so in my case I've chalked up that issue to the media. I have c8 firmware and I'm so far completely satisfied. I have not noticed this clay face issue and I've tried. If it is there, I guess no one in my family is sophisticated enough to detect it. I just had VOOM installed yesterday and boy it is FUN. This projector is almost silent and I have it directly above my couch. With the High Power screen the image VERY bright and crisp even on the low setting.
BTW: Thanks Tom for your advise on the CWI but actually I didnt need to change it, the factory setting of 28 worked best anyways.
See Ya.

Color banding is quite often a digital thing that normaly has something to do with bit depth (or lack of it). Try it on a non digital display like a CRT (that doesn't have digital processing) and then you'll know for sure if it's on the source or not.

My works laptop shows banding that my HT1000 doesn't, and that's a limitaion of the display, not the source. I do think that all disgitals will have some banding of some sort at some time at the moment, but some do it considerably less than others. It's a bit odd though that some H77s (with either firmware) can have posterisation, and others don't. Has anyone got any ideas about this? I did wonder if it was to do with a limited DMD modulation range due to either reduced blue/green contrast for good color balance, or (as some have said) because of the 8 segments and reduced switching time for the DMD.

It would be interesting to get to the bottom of it one way or another.

Gary.

Just read this:

* ND filter attaching 7 segmented color wheel
R (red) ×2 and G (green) ×2 and B (blue) it makes the color wheel 7 segmented constitution of the ×2, and the G + ND filter, when indicating the green component of dark space gradation just, by the fact that the G + ND filter is used, without producing effect to discernment section gradation, it was possible to decrease the noise impression.


It's a babel fish translation of the new Marantz S4. I was wondering what the wording "without producing effect to discernment section gradation" meant. Does that refer to color banding or something else in the color wheel?

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
I was wondering what the wording "without producing effect to discernment section gradation" meant. Does that refer to color banding or something else in the color wheel?

Gary.

Perhaps it refers to not producing visibly discernable rainbows.

Over 1600 posts and discussion on the H77 is still going strong - and it's all really interesting stuff :)
I've been looking for a PJ upgrade contender for some time now and despite the issues raised in this thread, the H77 is still on the top of my list. Basically one half of me says go out and buy one - NOW - and the other half is saying, yes - but what about these folks that are seeing artifacts - like Dave Harper. You could have had two bad machines Dave, but then again how likely is that? The Sim 300 is not an option for me due to its higher fan noise and longer throw distance. Which brings me back to the H77. There have been a few posts recently from VERY happy H77 purchasers - but most if not all seem to be in the USA. So if there are any European owners out there who've recently taken delivery (or even UK based guys like me) - let's hear from you!
BTW I'll be using my new PJ with the iScan HD scaler. Has anyone seen "Clayface", panning issues etc with this equipment?

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Originally posted by Loftboy
Over 1600 posts and discussion on the H77 is still going strong - and it's all really interesting stuff :)
I've been looking for a PJ upgrade contender for some time now and despite the issues raised in this thread, the H77 is still on the top of my list. Basically one half of me says go out and buy one - NOW - and the other half is saying, yes - but what about these folks that are seeing artifacts - like Dave Harper. You could have had two bad machines Dave, but then again how likely is that? The Sim 300 is not an option for me due to its higher fan noise and longer throw distance. Which brings me back to the H77. There have been a few posts recently from VERY happy H77 purchasers - but most if not all seem to be in the USA. So if there are any European owners out there who've recently taken delivery (or even UK based guys like me) - let's hear from you!
BTW I'll be using my new PJ with the iScan HD scaler. Has anyone seen "Clayface", panning issues etc with this equipment?

Merry Christmas Everyone!

As far as i know all pal users (themescene) are now happy with their projectors, i am one of them and also use it in combo with a iScan HD+ scaler.

Daniel.

Loftboy, with every projector that comes out there will always be a few users that are very fussy, sounds harsh but it's a fact. They will see things that the majority will never see. This creates a nervous response by the general public. Try to listen to the majority, I mean if you got 98 people not seeing a problem and 2 saying you must see it, who do you want to believe. :)

I never saw this clay face one , lol and any dithering motion was just typical dither motion.

The real problem the H77 had was the severe contour outlines in the first dozen or so Pal units that got out. But the fix is in, it's cw14 and you have the option of adjusting the color wheel index to fine tune.

You will be fine in PAL land now.
enjoy

Oh lets not get back into the 1chip dither disscussion again or I'll blow my brains out. ;)
ROTFLMAO

Tom,

You and I know that what we were talking about was not standard DLP dither. If you don't see clay face with your unit, that's great, but don't discount what others see. It was there, it was real, and it is a problem with at least some of the H77s. It's not there with my new Sim2 HT300E.

'nuff said:D!!!

I just received my H77 the other day. I don't have my theater complete yet but had to hook it up and project on the wall to check it out. I was very impressed with the picture out of the box. This is my first FP unit. I am upgrading from a 55" widescreen HDTV.

What is the difference between the manual lens shift on the unit itself and the menu-driven vertical shift? If I understand correctly the lens shift dial actually moves the entire image and the menu vertical shift moves the image within the frame but the frame, or lens, does not actaully move. Please clarify for me.

I noticed the unit got fairly warm. Is this normal? The fan put out quite a lot of heat and the bottom plate got quite warm.

I have also read many comments on how quiet the unit was. I agree it is quiet but I could easily hear it next to me. I had it on a tabletop and I was sitting right next to it. Once again, I have nothing to compare it to so just checking if this is normal.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom,

You and I know that what we were talking about was not standard DLP dither. If you don't see clay face with your unit, that's great, but don't discount what others see. It was there, it was real, and it is a problem with at least some of the H77s. It's not there with my new Sim2 HT300E.

'nuff said:D!!!
Oh no! lol
I started a thread on dither torture test, Alan was the first to chime in to say he see's it on his new 300e.
nuff said, pls!

The thread was good reading with excellent replies, if people missed it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468975

Originally posted by mleineke
I just received my H77 the other day. I don't have my theater complete yet but had to hook it up and project on the wall to check it out. I was very impressed with the picture out of the box. This is my first FP unit. I am upgrading from a 55" widescreen HDTV.

What is the difference between the manual lens shift on the unit itself and the menu-driven vertical shift? If I understand correctly the lens shift dial actually moves the entire image and the menu vertical shift moves the image within the frame but the frame, or lens, does not actaully move. Please clarify for me.

I noticed the unit got fairly warm. Is this normal? The fan put out quite a lot of heat and the bottom plate got quite warm.

I have also read many comments on how quiet the unit was. I agree it is quiet but I could easily hear it next to me. I had it on a tabletop and I was sitting right next to it. Once again, I have nothing to compare it to so just checking if this is normal.

The digital shift is usefull if a TV signal has garbage at the top, if so you just shift up. I get this with FOX OTA.

It's got a high powered bulb, yes DLP's are hot and produce good heat. Just wait till the summer. :)

23db in normal mode is as quiet as it gets. Most setups are several feet away from your ears and it will be hard to hear it. Don't you plan to ceiling mount it?

Yes, I do plan on ceiling mounting it when my theater is finished.

I am planning a 23' x 18' x 9' room, controlled ambient light. I am planning on a 118" diagonal Carada screen. What screen material is recommeded with this projector? Carada has a Classic Cinema White with 1.0 gain and Brilliant white with 1.4 gain.

Thanks.

Get the higher gain, its certainly won't effect the blacks. Also it will be better down the road for when the bulbs gets old.

Originally posted by Loftboy: BTW I'll be using my new PJ with the iScan HD scaler. Has anyone seen "Clayface", panning issues etc with this equipment?

I have tried two different units (pal H77), one with iScan, and the problem is still there. It's not so bad that it would be a dealbreaker for me, but it is there, and it's a little bit more annoying than in H30 and H57. If you haven't bothered dlp dithering or motion problems earlier, don't get bothered now.

Okay here goes. I have read all 80 pages of this thread. I really want to purchase an Optoma H77. I have just recently come into a great year end bonus and now I have the money to purchase one. I originally did not have enough to get to this level and here's the problem, I just recently purchased an Epson Cinema 500 (Yamaha LPX-510 OEM) and I love it. I hope I can explain my problem a bit better. I will be projecting on a Carada BW 110" screen. I am in a completely light controlled dedicated HT room with flat black ceilings and dark cranberry walls. I sit approximately 13.5 feet from the screen. I am not a LCD or DLP fan. I have owned both types and like each strengths a great deal. The only reason I purchased the Epson was it gave me most everything I wanted in a price I could afford. The Epson has great colors and grayscale right out of the box. As a matter of fact, it really needs no calibration as most are already calibrated to D65(ala Infocus). The Epson also has very good brightness and no VB or any other bad LCD issues I have seen in the past. The Epson falls short of the Optoma in one area though and of course that CR. I also sometimes wish for a less noisy or smoother picture. These are things I found I could live with for my monetary situation to get the great colors I wanted. Now these things I know will be much better on the Optoma. Now comes along this bonus and an opportunity to purchase the Optoma. My question is is it worth the extra money, basically $3000 in my circumstance(that is with me selling my PJ at a slight loss as I already have a buyer). Anyone out there had an opportunity to compare these units and can give me an idea of how big a difference there will be? I recently compared my PJ to the Yamaha DPX-1000 and did not think it was worth the difference. The 2 PJs were both projected onto Stewart Firehawks using the same source but in different rooms. The Yammy DPX-1000 is an OEM Marantz S2 I believe. I saw slight difference and actually preferred the colors on the LCD a good bit better. The CR was a liabilty but not nearly worth any extra money to me. I have also recently demoed a Sharp 12K and did not think I would be willing to pay the difference (just way to dim for my tastes). Then I found out the bulb had over 1800 hours on it and was probably the contributing factor. So really my demo experience is limited to an older generation DLP and one with a bad bulb. Any comments or help will be appreciated. I really want to be pushed over the edge here but in doing so be responsible. I want to get the Optoma and be able to say, "Wow, this really was worth it!"

Originally posted by guitarman
Oh no! lol
I started a thread on dither torture test, Alan was the first to chime in to say he see's it on his new 300e.
nuff said, pls!

The thread was good reading with excellent replies, if people missed it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468975

Tom,

Like I said, I am talking about the "Clay Face" issue, not dither. The 300E and every DLP I can think of that I have seen has some dither of course:rolleyes: The H77 was excellent in dealing with dither and it was hard to see, I agree. Clay Face on the other hand was quite bothersome, at least to me.

When you see it, you'll know, and then you can't stop yourself from looking at it even though you're bothered by it...like a car accident:eek:

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom,

Like I said, I am talking about the "Clay Face" issue, not dither. The 300E and every DLP I can think of that I have seen has some dither of course:rolleyes: The H77 was excellent in dealing with dither and it was hard to see, I agree. Clay Face on the other hand was quite bothersome, at least to me.

When you see it, you'll know, and then you can't stop yourself from looking at it even though you're bothered by it...like a car accident:eek:

I think at this point its silly to say the problem is not there, the amount of research Dave has put it makes it clear that for him something is happening. The 300e worked for him thats the end of it. But that doesn't mean its bad to stop looking for it. Only way to really solve the yes/no/yes/no is to have a meeting and show the effect to others who say it aint there at the risk of showing them their first rainbow again :).

What becomes more clear is that with each new trick new problems can popup or return like rainbows with better cr's or dither with different colorwheels etc etc.

i also test 48hz and 75hz on my pal H77 and didn't see any changes (using a iscan HD+) as someone already posted so the 240hz vs 300hz colorwheel was not related to this effect i guess.

Daniel.

I've considered the H77 as a replacement for my BenQ 8700 primarily because I want a lens shift pj for my High Power, and the price is reasonable. But I am troubled enough by the reports of the panning artifact that I'd check it out specifically before I'd buy, or make certain I could return it with minimum hassle or money. I've not been bothered by any motion artifacts with the 8700, generally.

BTW, I'm curious what Michael Grant thinks of his H77 he got several months ago. Michael, are you still completing your Ph.D. process?

Dan

Originally posted by guitarman
Loftboy, with every projector that comes out there will always be a few users that are very fussy, sounds harsh but it's a fact. They will see things that the majority will never see. This creates a nervous response by the general public. Try to listen to the majority, I mean if you got 98 people not seeing a problem and 2 saying you must see it, who do you want to believe. :)


Sorry Tom show some more respect fact is its not WHO you believe its that 98 people don't see it and 2 do ! only and best advice is check for yourself ask for a loaner or know how to return it since like rainbows you might see it and it will drive you crazy.

personally i feel that anyone who gets a 6k item and no way to return it is crazy, same i think any good shop who doesn't want to take a 6k item back to switch it for a different model is stupid since clearly he is playing with a client who is willing to put money down.

Daniel.

No doubt you guys in PAL land have problems with your signal. But here with the NTSC models no one ever knew, saw, and never noticed this clay face, which is a new one for me. Never saw it.

One thing I should point out is it's bad judgement to come into someones house and be little the product they own. Especially if they don't own one anymore.

Ok Dave see's problems he's more sensitive than others. But again pounding down what other owners are more than happy with isn't a good policy. What can the gain be?

" I've considered the H77 as a replacement for my BenQ 8700 primarily because I want a lens shift pj for my High Power, and the price is reasonable " -

Dan, you might consider buying one of the very few H76 projectors left in that case. I've talked to several AVS members here that had BenQ 8700's and replaced them with Optoma H76's and told me that the H76 had a better picture and better blacks too ( plus lens shift and quieter to boot ). And they have 3 year warranties.

I'd be MORE than happy to meet with anyone who has an H77 and point it out to them.

Tom,

Go sell cigars and leave the electronics to the people that have done this for a few years and have REAL experience. I don't tell you what makes a good cigar just because I've smoked a few...jeez:rolleyes:

As Daniel said...show some respect for others:mad: Just because Rev. Jim Jones (Optoma) gives you some Kool-Aid and it tastes good at first, doesn't mean it doesn't have some side effects:D!!!

Originally posted by drapp1952
I've considered the H77 as a replacement for my BenQ 8700 primarily because I want a lens shift pj for my High Power, and the price is reasonable. But I am troubled enough by the reports of the panning artifact that I'd check it out specifically before I'd buy, or make certain I could return it with minimum hassle or money. I've not been bothered by any motion artifacts with the 8700, generally.

BTW, I'm curious what Michael Grant thinks of his H77 he got several months ago. Michael, are you still completing your Ph.D. process?

Dan
That's right Michael Grant, never said a peep.

Originally posted by DHarp193
I'd be MORE than happy to meet with anyone who has an H77 and point it out to them.

Tom,

Go sell cigars and leave the electronics to the people that have done this for a few years and have REAL experience. I don't tell you what makes a good cigar just because I've smoked a few...jeez:rolleyes:

As Daniel said...show some respect for others:mad: Just because Rev. Jim Jones (Optoma) gives you some Kool-Aid and it tastes good at first, doesn't mean it doesn't have some side effects:D!!!

I take it you don't agree with my be-little comment, sri jmo

Originally posted by guitarman
...But again pounding down what other owners are more than happy with isn't a good policy. What can the gain be?

A better product. Wow, what a concept:p

Originally posted by guitarman
That's right Michael Grant, never said a peep.

Michael Grant was a customer of ours at TAW before he seemed to really know anything (sorry Mike if that's not the case). Is he now the electronics expert?

Just give it up Dave. There is no way you going to get Tom to agree that there are any problems with the H77. Just like most product champions, he is ignoring poor reviews by knowledgeable customers.

If the "clay face" was inherent to DLP, you would be seeing in your HT300e wouldn't you? But your not. You must have selective eyes :).

I'm still convinced that someones hands are deep in Toms pockets :).

Brad

Originally posted by DHarp193
Tom,

Like I said, I am talking about the "Clay Face" issue, not dither. The 300E and every DLP I can think of that I have seen has some dither of course:rolleyes: The H77 was excellent in dealing with dither and it was hard to see, I agree. Clay Face on the other hand was quite bothersome, at least to me.

When you see it, you'll know, and then you can't stop yourself from looking at it even though you're bothered by it...like a car accident:eek:

No, since day one when I started the review the picture has always been excellent. Brad do you own an H77? What do you think of it?

Dave, I'd say Michael is a respected poster on the forum, and has (do I presume here!?) seen a few pjs in his day.

Thanks Craig, for the comments on the H76. That pj's infamous release delays, and some reports of a particular technical problem - the details of which escape me at the moment - made me wary of it. So, your post is appreciated.

I think most of us appreciate all reports of problems with a particular device. If a pattern develops we know more of what to look out for. It could be that we don't perceive or aren't bothered by what others point out, but no harm is done in this process, and generally no offense should be taken.

Dan

The release delays and the fact that by the time it actually came out it was time to replace it with the H77 made the H76 a bastard stepchild projector. Which means it can be had quite a bit cheaper - just the way I like it. I don't buy cars the minute they go on sale either - they don't drive any better for costing more just because they're new. The only issue I know of with the H76 is no overscan or too much overscan - not a problem with DVD's, may be a problem for watching SD television ( I have a 20" piece of crap tv for that ). I've talked to people ( dealers ) that had both the H76 and H77 side by side - convinced me that the 76 was just as good picture wise and brighter. Perhaps less picture problems with the H76 because it doesn't have the 8 segment wheel, eh? I'll tell you more when I get my new theater room finished in a couple of weeks

I've seen Toms H77 and never saw any " clay face " myself. Maybe there are some bad chips or boards or other components in some units. And I'm not in anyones back pocket. If someone would please send me free projectors I'll even be in your front pocket : )!!

Originally posted by guitarman
Brad do you own an H77? What do you think of it?

Nope I don't. Although I have desperately tried, no one locally has one on display. I have seen a H76, but, only for a few minutes in a non-optimal environment. It did not jump our at me as anything other than more of the same HD2 projectors. I only have the reviews of experience people to go by as do most other AVSForum readers.

So far, very few people have written detailed reviews of the H77 who have had high end projectors in the past. You and Dave being two of the few. I have inquired about the projector from people who I know and respect who have seen the H77 and they all have agreed with what Dave has said in respect to the h77.

Even the Mits clone didn't get a favorable review in its most recent rag review.

I have seen, and owned quite a few HD displays and FP. Never have I seen anything like Dave describes. Yet, it is clear that Dave has seen this Clay face anomaly in two H77's (as have at least two other posters). Yet he doesn't see it in his new HT300e, nor, does he ever remember seeing it in any other DLP projector. Seems to me that this is clearly a problem with the H77.

There are a few reasons why I put more stock in Dave's review over yours:
1. His profession and experience in the Home Theater field.
2. Your obvious bias for the H77.

I mean, come on, every time someone even begins to say they see some anomaly in the H77, you immediately post that you don't see anything other than a perfect image or that any thing they see is inherit to the DLP technology. You also always paraphrase what Dave calls the "Clay Face" artifact as DLP dithering. Every single time... no matter how many times Dave explains that they are not the same thing.

Maybe I shouldn't contribute to the thread because I haven't seen one. But hey, from what I remember, I have never said anything close to providing an opinion of the h77.

I would love to know how many current owners of the H77 (other than yourself) have had a high end DLP projector in the past. Like a Marantz, Sharp, Sim2, etc...

Based on comments from Dave, Daniel, and my dealer, I wont be getting a H77. Although, Tom, you have done a excellent job selling the H77 for Optoma. Kudos to you. You almost had me as a part of the flock.

I promise I wont bother this H77 love fest thread any longer. Ill be over in the HT300e love fest thread. :D

Brad

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DHarp193
I'd be [b]MORE than happy to meet with anyone who has an H77 and point it out to them.

I wonder if anyone would be stupid enough to take you up on this? Even if the problem does exist (and I not saying it does not exist), if I or anyone who has seen my home heater has not noticed it why would I want somone to point it out to me? Agonizing for days on end about my purchace would not be my idea of fun. I have too many other things in my life to obsess over, mainly excersise, health and family.

Everything in life has tradeoffs.

Originally posted by tubby
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DHarp193
I'd be [b]MORE than happy to meet with anyone who has an H77 and point it out to them.

I wonder if anyone would be stupid enough to take you up on this? Even if the problem does exist (and I not saying it does not exist), if I or anyone who has seen my home heater has not noticed it why would I want somone to point it out to me? Agonizing for days on end about my purchace would not be my idea of fun. I have too many other things in my life to obsess over, mainly excersise, health and family.

Everything in life has tradeoffs.

Hehe i was wondering the same thing thats why i posted the rainbow remark, im 100% ok with my H77 now and my remark was aimed at the 'who do you believe' type of comment. Let me put it this way Tom by allways looking at the bright side and not giving respect where its clearly do more and more people will start to see you as a pr person for 1 or 2 companies and that would be a pity since your comments, images and feedback have been very welcome and are the reason i own a H77 today.

Greetings,

Daniel.

" I would love to know how many current owners of the H77 (other than yourself) have had a high end DLP projector in the past. Like a Marantz, Sharp, Sim2, etc.. " -

I'd be curious as to what someone who owned / reviewed a $ 12,000 projector thought of a BenQ 8700 ( I'm not being a smartass - really ) - would it hold up to a Yamaha 1100 or the Sharp 12000 picture wise ( as well as the H77 )? Really. Not really in the same price point, but I would be curious. My guess is as you slide down the money scale ( from a 3 chip DLP, eh ) you see more artifacts or problems.

Originally posted by tubby
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DHarp193
I'd be [b]MORE than happy to meet with anyone who has an H77 and point it out to them.

I wonder if anyone would be stupid enough to take you up on this? Even if the problem does exist (and I not saying it does not exist), if I or anyone who has seen my home heater has not noticed it why would I want somone to point it out to me? Agonizing for days on end about my purchace would not be my idea of fun. I have too many other things in my life to obsess over, mainly excersise, health and family.

Everything in life has tradeoffs.

Amen to that Tubby. That's why I decided to get rid of the H77.

I'll tell ya what, if the H77 didn't have that issue, it'd probably be the best 1 chip DLP out there, regardless of price. I'm not picking on it just to pick on something. I personally think it's a major issue that needs resolved. I wanted it to be the best, contrary to what Tom thinks, and was quite upset that it had such a major flaw. If anyone doubts me, ask Tom Strade, owner of Immersive Inc. what he feels about the H77 and this issue:rolleyes:

Thanks for the support guys:)

Originally posted by danielo
Hehe i was wondering the same thing thats why i posted the rainbow remark, im 100% ok with my H77 now and my remark was aimed at the 'who do you believe' type of comment. Let me put it this way Tom by allways looking at the bright side and not giving respect where its clearly do more and more people will start to see you as a pr person for 1 or 2 companies and that would be a pity since your comments, images and feedback have been very welcome and are the reason i own a H77 today.

Greetings,

Daniel.
It just drives me nuts because we get posts with people ready to buy this great projector and then go wait hold the fort and get all worried. So I have to explain that it's a couple of users that are senstitive or who knows got a bad machine. Or pal signel users, I'll go home and watch my projector (700hrs) and just shake my head and can't imagine what in the world they are seeing. Spent way too much time looking at pans on different displays, the clay face what ever it is is not on my machine. I'm not here to lie to people.

Anyway I get similar troubles in the fleamarket forum so I'll probably stop doing reveiws. I'll be getting ulcers

Well, either we're not critical enough picture wise ( my HT1000 must suck then too ) or there are some good units out ( yours included Tom ) and some bad units out.

However, the two reviews by others on the web ( Projector Central being one ) never mentioned these issues. I tend to think it's bad units - maybe a QC issue.

True, some more reviews by ISF's would be helpful. Geoffrey Morrison s/b be doing an H77 review and I like the contrast measurment format.

This place did a review, just noticed he reviewd CF-6000 which I'm thinking of picking up again.

http://www.laaudiofile.com/h77.html

Yup - I read that review too.

Originally posted by guitarman
It just drives me nuts because we get posts with people ready to buy this great projector and then go wait hold the fort and get all worried. So I have to explain that it's a couple of users that are senstitive or who knows got a bad machine. Or pal signel users, I'll go home and watch my projector (700hrs) and just shake my head and can't imagine what in the world they are seeing. Spent way too much time looking at pans on different displays, the clay face what ever it is is not on my machine. I'm not here to lie to people.

Anyway I get similar troubles in the fleamarket forum so I'll probably stop doing reveiws. I'll be getting ulcers

I really hope you don't stop doing reviews you seem to be more than willing to convince and help people on issues. But if anyone who reads this thread votes agaist the H77 then thats their problem. We have seen this over many products on many of these forums and it tells us more about the people who read and make up their mind on a thread alone. Information provided here is and allways should be a starting point. And anyone who reads these areas should know a product will be taken apart and bitched about in more ways than the makers ever dreamed about thats the price they pay for reading these forums with many freaks who love to talk about their new toys.

Let me repeat myself again anyone who makes up his mind based on a forum alone is playing with fire, anyone who orders a unit like a projector or speakers unseen/heared is taking a unwise gamble (or have a return concept, edit).

Anyone who doesn't create shortlist to review in person is missing out on some great stuff,

Daniel.

" anyone who orders a unit like a projector or speakers unseen/heared is taking a unwise gamble " -

Most of us will buy a projector sight unseen as there is nowhere to see them! But only after many reviews and talking to many owners.

Yeah they're asking me right now which is better the IF 4805 or Optoma H31. I'd pick the Optoma becuase I like their colors. But these gentlemen will find it hard to get to see either of them.

I have had the sharp 12k and Yamaha dpx 1100 in my viewing room and had the chance to watch a few movies on both (only about 8 hrs on each). The yamaha was the best. Not 2x better, but better to my eyes. The 12k had wonderful contrast but was too dim for my screen size and I saw rainbows (very little, but there). I love my H77 but I am not jaded. As happy as I am I can still see negatives with the machine such as:

1. To me it is not as silent as everyone says it is (quite, but reading this thread you would swear it was 0 db!) 2. The menu system looks generic and could be better. The sharps menu has much more options. 3. The remote is small and seems a bit flimsy. 4. I have noticed banding, more than I saw on the Yamaha. All I can say about this is if this is the only reason some people don't buy the PJ then it's a shame. For the amount that I saw it's not even worth mentioning. 5. It takes a bit longer than I'm used to for the PJ to sync up with the source. 6. Out of the box calibration could be better. 7. Why the hell is the power cord mounted on the side! 8. Lens shift is a bit cumbersome to use (for ceiling mount installs).

Well, I thought I could get 10 negatives but that's all I could think of that I could complain about. This machine is not perfect, but the PQ you get for the money has no peer IMHO.

For those on the fence, spend the extra money and get the 300E or Marantz or Yamaha or 12k, maybe spending more loot will give you peace of mind. I admit I was concerned buying sight-unseen and reading all these posts. Now in hindsight, I sit here LOL every time I fire this thing up! Thanks Tom for cheerleading the H77 on for those of us who get spooked and think the sky is falling if someone mentions "rainbow" or "banding". I admit I was leery of Tom's defending the H77 also. Seems like every time someone mentioned something bad Tom was there to say "It ain't so!" Now I see he's just enthusiastic about getting a stellar pq without having to fork over the larger sums of cash the other options require.

I love a bargain, I like to alert others of bargains, but invariably someone will not be pleased and wish they had spent the extra (Dave :D). Maybe I'm not savvy enough yet to appreciate the subtle nuances that higher priced HD2+'s offer. Better yet maybe I'm just lucky! Anyone in the Central Florida area on the fence is more than welcome to come over and get kicked off the fence!!

ReGarDs :cool:

FWIW, I, too am still quite happy with my H77. I was always skeptical of Tom's posts. It was nothing personal, I'm just naturally skeptical :). But I was unable to demo many PJ's and like Craig said, I had to do the best I could on mostly research alone. I mentally applied some (lower) weighting to Tom's posts in case there was real bias but even with that, I stil feel the H77 is a good choice given the alternatives. I personally spoke with several others who felt the PJ was a good one.

Dave's experiences I believe to be real and I think it's one of 2 things from my perspective. Either mine has the issues he saw and I'm not sharp enough to know it (preferred), or he got some bad PJ's. If the later, I hope mine dosen't get what his had. I'm no stranger to computers and electronics and I can't see it being firmware. Firmware is just a computer program and they have this cool thing about them - they behave the same no matter where they are. Same program=same behavior (all thigns equal of course). That leaves a mechanical (including physical electronic component) issue IMO. Not to wish bad on anyone but if anyone was to get "it" Tom would be a good candidate since then whats-his-name the engineer could come over, see it and then determine the problem, and fix. Sorry Tom :). I think it's unfortunate Optoma didn't work with Dave to see it (or not). He seems too well connected to be just a crackpot trying to return his PJ :)

I want a Qualia, or a 3 chip but can't rationalize them right now. I liked what I read about the Marantz's but hate to throw money away just because they are so tightly retail controlled. I did see the 12k and it WAS dim compared to my H77, WAY dimmer. I was interested in a Yam 1100 until I saw one a couple weeks ago, my H77 is WAY better than the one I saw. Tweeter claimed it was calibrated, I hope for Yamaha's sake they were...ah hem, mistaken. I'd like to hear more from Client1 about the 1100 vs the H77 (PQ only). I have also mentioned the complaints Client 1 listed (#1,2,5,6) in previous posts. None were show stoppers nor were they anything prevent a purchase. Most were observations like the noise. Yes it may be quiet (comparatively) but it's NOT silent as some would lead you to believe. I don't notice it when watching, it is right over my head. It's not noisy (like some PJs I heard), just saying it's not literally silent. No biggie. Client1's post about PQ I think could be affordably addressed by most of us if Optoma would help out with my #3 item below.

I'm mostly happy with the H77 except for these outstanding issues:

1) Needs discrete codes for screen size selections. This is a biggie IMO.
2) Needs discrete code for Turn Off (and skip warning nag). Another Biggie. The H77 is the ONLY device I've had that won't play nice with a competent "one-button" HT remote setup.
3) Wish Optoma would lend Steve Smalcombe a PJ so he would tweak his Smart III tool for the H77. It might do as good as having one with Tom. Hell give him one and write it off to marketing. At least let him borrow one. They should be ASKING him to borrow one IMO. That would help all of us who can't swing 3G's (to start) for Colorfacts, OpticOne, signal generators, etc. It would enable an afforadable tool to fine tune the PJ for the mass's homes.
4) Need to be able to do the firmware at least at the dealer. Toms says they can now. I've got mine working on it now, we'll see. I'm not holding my breath but will cross fingers.

I'd like to see improvement in sync speeds, but It's not that bad and I can live with that for the price.

As for raw PQ, I'm perfectly happy with my H77 110" Firehawk combo and could comfortably recommend it to family or friends (or you strangers).

Give me those 4 things above and I'll open a cigar store ;) and folks will start doubting my praise, too.

Cheers,
Scott

I'm extremely satisfied with my H77 and have yet to see the "clay face" issues that some folks have seen. However, maybe I'm an untrained novice that has to rely on my eyes. I'm really interested in getting a 3 chip projector and will upgrade in a few years. I actually was considering the SIM projector, but decided to spend the extra dollars on a few other items to improve my HT. Also, having a nearly silent projector was very important given the placement and my HT room layout. I can't even hear the Optoma unless I put it in high brightness mode (which I really don't do that often). My family is very happy with our setup (including a 100" Firehawk). Our friends are blown away. Thanks to Tom for all of his help (I saw his setup prior to purchasing my unit). SJ

Dave,

I sell Sim2, Sharp, Optoma, Infocus Screenplay, BenQ, Toshiba, NEC, etc.... I do have the full suite of Colorfacts Pro with both meters.

Prior to selling digitals, I was a hard core CRT nut, having 8 and 9 inch gun machines fully tweaked out. I like to think I know what I am looking at in a video display. Prior to breaking down and splurging on Colorfacts, I have had several ISF guys do work on my CRTs. Some were good at what they did, others were idiots.

I do not see clay faces. I've made every attempt I can to see the effect you are describing and on my demo display unit, it just isn't there or my vision isn't as good as yours.

If cost is no object, there are some wonderful machines on the market to serve your desires. However, months later in a world that moves at the speed of light and a product is outdated a week after its release, the H77 is still by far the best value in mid-high end projectors. Is it perfect? No, it's not. The past few posts have touched on some of the issues folks have with the unit. Some are minor quibbles, some seem major to that person. You can't please everyone for the price this thing sells for online. But you get one heck of a machine for the money.

Shane, all,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree on all counts with what you're saying.

I guess maybe there was a bad batch, maybe one "assembly line" worth of units that had some sort of problem, who knows.

I guess I just finally gave up after trying two different machines, several firmwares, and numerous phone calls/emails.

The straw that broke the camel's back was after getting the Pioneer DV-59AVi it wouldn't sync up to the H77's DVI input for anything. I tried the DVD player on three other DVI/HDMI displays and it sync'd up perfectly fine using my same cables.

I REALLY want to see another H77 in someone's setup that say they don't see "clayface". Anyone within 2 hours of Lancaster PA???

Like I said, if the H77s I had didn't exhibit this issue I think it would be considered one of the best 1 chip DLPs irregardless of price. I kinda actually miss it:( I wanted it to be the projector I could live with for a few years until affordable 3 chip 1080P units arrived, especially considering my medical problems for the past 1 1/2 years.

there is contours on my H77. Master and commander beginning scene when the ship appears out of the fog. look at the edges of the fog.

It was pointed out to me by my friends who own other Hd2 projectors for sometime. They say it is not there on their machines. I think it takes a certain amount of experience to pick out such flaws. I did not see anything wrong but my friend reversed and froze the frame. You MUST know what you are looking out for.

My setup is pioneer 969 DVI-HDMI 720P output. firmware is C08 NTSC. will try the service menu to see if I can reduce it.

quick question,

is there any routine maintenence required such as cleaning a filter? actually, is there a filter at all?
and what about the optics? any care needed?

thanks,

kyle

I tried very hard to produce color banding on my HT1000 after seeing it still on the H77 with new firmware (though greatly reduced), but no matter what I did, I couldn't make it show it.

I want to get the H77, but part of me feels that to go from no banding to seeing banding is not an upgrade. Of course, the resolution increase is an upgrade, but I think the banding is a visual issue that can draw you too it and take you out of the movie (in my case anyway), where as having a lower resolution isn't something that currently spoils my viewing.

I believe Dave H sees clay face. I've seen it a couple of times myself so I know what he's seeing, and I couldn't live with that either. I know other people don't see it, so I think Dave has been unlucky with two 'less optimal' H77s.

I'm hoping the later produced H77s with updates etc already installed (i.e not upgraded units that had issues), will have no issues like the majority of units don't. Then I'll have no doubts at all.

Gary.

actually, I think all the H77 are about the same, it is basically one's threshold of pain :)

Seriously for those who cannot see contours and who have the C08 firmware, take a look at the master and commander scene, around chapter 3 just b4 the first battle. In those scenes through the telescope, look at the right circular border. surely you will notice some contours.

On the other hand, I will never notice it on normal viewing as my attention is focused on the center of the screen so I guess it is ok. I have watched around 3 movies and I have NEVER noticed any contours on NORMAL viewing. So I am not so irritated by it. but it is there.

My CWI is set at 24 by default. And that is the best setting for my H77.

Dave,
I feel your pain. I had a similar ordeal with the PLV-60 a few years ago. I went through three units that had terrible greyscale tracking, while 99% of people swore that it was the perfect projector. I finally jumped ship. It's your money, and you should hold out for getting what you want.

Personally, I think that the H77 may be the right machine for me, but I'm certainly not going to buy without a decent amount of viewing time.

Originally posted by alantkh
actually, I think all the H77 are about the same, it is basically one's threshold of pain :)


I don't agree - we've seen photos here of chapter 15 of U571 on Toms H77 which shows no color banding at all, but others have produced pictures which show it in different variatons from bad to worse on the same scene and projector. I've seen it on an H77 and it's not like Toms machine or my HT1000 which have none (on that particular scene).

It may be player related perhaps, as I've had some players produce clay face on my HT1000 and not others.

Gary.

My firts test concerning H77 vertical frequency : H77 accept 48, 50 and 60Hz. 50Hz is better for PAL source. I noticed that the H77 is less noisy in 48Hz and 50Hz. Maybe the wheel must turn less quickly (5*50 = 250Hz vs 5*60 = 300Hz). However the H77 has tearing with 75 and 72Hz...

Originally posted by ksoak
quick question,

is there any routine maintenence required such as cleaning a filter? actually, is there a filter at all?
and what about the optics? any care needed?

thanks,

kyle
It has a sealed optic path but it does have a precautionary filter in the large intake vent. I was told just to clean it with water and dry once every two months more or less according to how dusty your environment is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scotthorton

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm mostly happy with the H77 except for these outstanding issues:

1) Needs discrete codes for screen size selections. This is a biggie IMO.
2) Needs discrete code for Turn Off (and skip warning nag). Another Biggie. The H77 is the ONLY device I've had that won't play nice with a competent "one-button" HT remote setup.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott, if you could expand on this please. i.e. what implications would this have for me and my Marantz RC5000 remote.

Originally posted by Loftboy
>>>Scott, if you could expand on this please. i.e. what implications would this have for me and my Marantz RC5000 remote.

Sure. It's not the end of the world. but...
1) no discrete means it's a toggle. If you program an ALL OFF button for instance, and the projector is ON, it will go off. Good. Say it's already off because you were listening to music. Press ALL OFF, and it will come on. Maybe worse, if you program an ALL ON button, and a family member accidentally presses ALLON, then the PJ will go off, costing a strike/startup cycle not to mention having to wait on it to turn off before you can wait again for it to turn on.

2) When I watch a DVD I want "Native". When I watch Cable HD, I want "Window". To select them, instead of being able to program a macro that says "Watch DVD" I have to bring up a menu for the H77, use the arrow keys, and select the desired format, THEN turn the menu back off. The remote has no way to know where the PJ starts (cause the selctions aren't discrete) so you can't program it to make this selection automatically.

See? For a piece of electronics to be considered a "home theater" piece, these options (discrete codes) are elementary IMO.

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks Scott,
Yep - I know exactly what you're talking about now - it would annoy me too. I have a (v.rarely used!!) VCR which has the same attribute - toggle on/off. However, pressing PLAY would always turn it ON, and so a macro could be programmed to put it into a known state - PLAY+STOP would always turn it ON, whilst PLAY,ON/OFF BUTTON would always turn it OFF. But it's crap you could do without right? :mad: I agree, on top flight HC kit like this, you don't expect problems integrating the remote commands into your favorite "one-for-all".
So, has anyone out there overcome these universal remote programming "hiccups". Getting the PJ into a known state is obviously the key, but doing it without a lamp strike? I'll bet someone out there has a solution ;)

Any ideas Tom?

I like using the projectors remote. I asked the tech area to work out a program but it's never panned out.

Cheers Tom - nothing in this world is perfect !! but hey hey - maybe the H78 will be :D

____________________
Martyn/Loftboy

You have to know something new will come eventually. What's Ti up to an HD3 or double dimple fix? things s/b nice if contrast & blacks increase as much as they did with the first dimple fix.

Tom, any idea if Optoma will release something with Dark Chip 3? Even better, why not make it so current H77 machines can be retro-fitted with the new chip! (wishful thinking!)

Don't know for sure but Optoma's been trying to keep up with the Jonses lately. So probably it will be pretty fast. :)

Not sure who's using the new chip right now, Seleco for sure, Marantz calls the latest the 12s3 but I don't think the 3 stands for Dark Chip3 I think it's just the dark colorwheel segment.

Originally posted by guitarman
...Not sure who's using the new chip right now, Seleco for sure, Marantz calls the latest the 12s3 but I don't think the 3 stands for Dark Chip3 I think it's just the dark colorwheel segment.

FYI, Marantz's new DLP is the VP-12S4. The 12S3 was their HD2+ offering with the Faroudja processing and the S4 has a new Gennum processing chip and the DC3 by TI.

Dave: Seen one yet? Scott

Scott,

Yes, I saw it only at a controlled demo at CEDIA this year. It looked very nice and seemed to have a little more contrast than the S3, probably due to the dark chip. It didn't seem all that different from the S3 though. If money were an issue, I'd just go with a discounted S3. If you were/are planning on getting an S3 new and were budgeting the money based on retail/street pricing, I'd just hang for a little bit and then go with the S4.

I don't seem to remember exactly, but I don't think they had very good "challenging" source material they used on it for the demo, so a more thorough workout is needed.

Ok so it's just Seleco & Marantz right now? Lets see what pops up in a few weeks. I'm supposed to go to the show but haven't done any booking yet, I'm tempted to go just for the gambling part. Maybe Dave can show me the clay faces. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
...Maybe Dave can show me the clay faces. :)

I'd be glad to Tom;)!!! Are you sure you'd want to see that??? Actually, I hope I don't see it on other H77s. It would be better for all of us if it was just an isolated few units, which I'd love to be the case.

Heck, if it was I just may sell the Sim2 and go with the H77 again:)!!!

Originally posted by DHarp193
<snip>street pricing, I'd just hang for a little bit and then go with the S4.Naa. Not shopping exactly. Just watching for the upgrade path when it appears. My H77's working fine for me right now. I have no contacts that carry Marantz other than a refurb through acc4less. So I'd likely have to pay retail, or nearly even with some aggressive shopping. Unless you know someone... They are just too tight IMO. Too protective of dealers, can't compete yet.
I don't seem to remember exactly, but I don't think they had very good "challenging" source material they used on it for the demo, so a more thorough workout is needed. I went to CEDIA but didn't see the S4 on display. Must have missed it. Only got to go Sun so I did have to hurry around. They better not get you to do the workout <big grin>.
Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by DHarp193
I'd be glad to Tom;)!!! Are you sure you'd want to see that??? Actually, I hope I don't see it on other H77s. It would be better for all of us if it was just an isolated few units, which I'd love to be the case.

Heck, if it was I just may sell the Sim2 and go with the H77 again:)!!!

I know you miss the bright mode on the H77. I'll try to be there but finding people will be a needle in a haystack deal. I'll wear my AVS/guitarman name tag. Oh I'm not working at the Optoma booth either, lol
Just another lookee lou. Maybe I should chew on a cigar you could spot me easier.

Originally posted by guitarman
...Oh I'm not working at the Optoma booth either, lol...

I know...you'll be out working the crowd to get them to go see the Optoma booth as a paid secret agent:p;):D:)!!!

I'm not sure if I'll be at CES this year. Probably not.

Is there no one in the Harrisburg/Lancaster/Philly, PA or Baltimore/DC area that also has an H77 that I can check out?

Hey I'm a happy dude, I just confirmed I can get a complete colorfacts package with the One-eye & Tricolor meters, CF pro w/case at a great price. Won't have it until a couple of weeks but expect a measured CR number in the near future. I'll probably get similar to what Li-on got, it was around 2800.1 at D65 which is very good. Can't wait to get back in the CF game.

Loking forward to thr results Tom. :)

Gary.

Tom, any idea if Optoma will release something with Dark Chip 3? Even better, why not make it so current H77 machines can be retro-fitted with the new chip! (wishful thinking!)

I just received correspondence from my distributor. Yes, they will have the H78 for me to see at the CES. Dark3 chip. Should be interesting.

O JimmyMack - When are you coming back? :D Sorry Jimmy, I had to. (luv that song)

Thanks for the info. I still think they should offer the DC3 as an upgrade option. Doesn't Projection Design offer an upgrade path with their MK series?

Originally posted by JimmyMack
I just received correspondence from my distributor. Yes, they will have the H78 for me to see at the CES. Dark3 chip. Should be interesting.


I have some good info that this will be shown at ces, but ships in the US in feb/mar and may as a first possible date in europe. It is possible to put the hd2+dc3 set in so its the same case/design but doing so will take several hours and combined with the extra cost will not be a realistic option. At the time of asking the price was aimed at $2000 more than the H77 but i guess that can change.

I guess it makes sense to keep the same basic design since it seems very stable and the noise levels are better than any projector out today. DC3 adds alot of extra light output so im guessing they will
lower power a bit to make the ntsc (60hz mode) as silent as the pal (50hz mode) and gain 1000 or more hours on the bulb. They are also playing with the Gennum and Jepico scaler/chips not sure if
that will be added but i know research on these are done at optoma for furure models.

Since the basic optics where allready providing 3500:1 (specs) im guessing we will see a jump to 5500 to 6000 based on number of other models at ces.

Daniel.

O JimmyMack - When are you coming back? Sorry Jimmy, I had to. (luv that song)

Doesn't everybody! If I only had a nickle for everytime someone sang that song to me........

I know this is a long thread and I've been trying diligently to keep up, but could someone summarize the pros/cons/drawbacks/failings of the H77? This projector is on my very short list due to its noise output and the need for my projector to sit ~3.5' away from the sweet spot watching position.

Originally posted by SpecialK-MD
I know this is a long thread and I've been trying diligently to keep up, but could someone summarize the pros/cons/drawbacks/failings of the H77? This projector is on my very short list due to its noise output and the need for my projector to sit ~3.5' away from the sweet spot watching position. See my post maybe just a few back. It's a great PJ for picture, and noise. I like mine very much. It's brighter and has a better picture than anything else I could manage to see. My list of cons is short and none are the kind that would override the pros I just mentioned. If I was buying one tomorrow, I'd get it again.

If you get a good unit, then I don't think there are any cons for this machine at the price. The only negatives are that some units can suffer from color banding (or posterisation), or even 'clay face', but these units are quite rare now it seems - especialy since the newer firmware has been introduced.

Gary.

I heard dealers abroad pressed for a quick look at the H77, even thought it wasn't ready for PAL prime time yet they got some. I don't think they should have been selling those until the PAL tuning was done. About 15 or 20 machines only but look at the mess it made for you guys.

Been playing around with the RGB's tuning the greyscale and the pic looks even better! (greyscale still needs some tweaking). Chronicles of Riddick last night was excellent! Very clean transfer and image depth was superb on the H77.

G-Man, did you get that Colorfacts yet?

No the guys up in Lake Tahoe till the new year. He'll bring it buy my shop 3rd day of Jan, can't wait.

You can do a good job by eye. The key is the Avia Pluge or needle pulse patterns don't lie. If you see color in those gray steps, just a little tweaking of the RGB's can go a long way. Make them gray.

Hey Tom, I'll have to bribe you to bring Colorfacts to my house and set up my H76 - should have my theater room finished in about 3 weeks!

I like Cuban Cigars :)

I got some little ones - and more good wine than you could drink ( after calibration, eh )!!!

Are the avia patterns not the best for setting white and black level? When i set them with Avia i was missing a lot of shadow detail, when i tried the THX optimizer seems a bit better.

One example is in matrix reloaded, Neo's outfit was completely black in most scenes but with THX calibration, i see the buttons and folds in his jacket now.

Just wondered if maybe the avia stuff might be getting a little long in the tooth.

John

With Avia I set black level so I can just barely make out the right moving line. With THX optimizer do you set it to just barely make out the THX logo (not the drop shadow), or can you see it clearly?

I find if the scene looks a bit dark I just bump up the gamma a notch or two. Brings out the shadow detail more without hurting the black level. Raising the brightness to bring out detail raises the black level more than I'd like sometimes.

I just received the Jan/Feb issue of the Perfect Vision. They compare the Sharp Z12k with the H77. Shane Buetttner reviewed the projectors. He said that its quality with 720P HD material rivaled the 12k. But the H77 showed artifacts with 480P dvds and 480i and 1080i material was softer and less colorful than 480P or 720P.

My question is would the H77 owners agree with his review?

I use gamma 2 and the all black Avia pattern with good results in the same way Client1 is doing. With the THX pattern I stop when the shadow THX just disappears.

I watched I-robot last night, unbelievable picture quality on my H77. Really what more could you want, beautiful!

Which screens are all the H77 owners using?

My room is 13'x16'4". Completely light controlled. Back row is against the wall (at 16'). Front row is 10' from the screen. Screen will be 54"x96". Projector will be at 15' from the screen and ceiling mounted. Any particular recommendations for this setup? I was leanig towards DaLite simply because I'm a Direct Buy member and can get them a little over cost. But I'm not married to the DaLite's.

Originally posted by guitarman
I use gamma 2 and the all black Avia pattern with good results in the same way Client1 is doing. With the THX pattern I stop when the shadow THX just disappears.

I watched I-robot last night, unbelievable picture quality on my H77. Really what more could you want, beautiful!

I think i'm on gamma 1 so i'll try 2. In avia do you mean the pattern with the moving bars or another one?

John

Originally posted by MickB
I just received the Jan/Feb issue of the Perfect Vision. They compare the Sharp Z12k with the H77. Shane Buetttner reviewed the projectors. He said that its quality with 720P HD material rivaled the 12k. But the H77 showed artifacts with 480P dvds and 480i and 1080i material was softer and less colorful than 480P or 720P.

My question is would the H77 owners agree with his review?

I saw the Z12K before I purchased my H77. It certainly was a light canon. I know that if you use the lower brightness setting that it has great contrast. My biggest issue was that it was way too noisy for my HT. I have not seen many artifacts on my H77 with DVDs. However, I am using a iSCAN HD scaler which may make a difference. SJ

" Which screens are all the H77 owners using? " -

I plan on using a Dalite Cinema Vision screen with my H76 ( close enough to a H77 ), so if you get killer deals on Dalite - you might consider that.

Originally posted by Expletive
I think i'm on gamma 1 so i'll try 2. In avia do you mean the pattern with the moving bars or another one?

John

The patterns that show an all black screen with the two moving black bars, or the all white screen with the two moving bars for contrast.

They're in the video tests patterns menu, then under grayscales and levels, the top two choices, top left for contrast, top right for blacks.

Originally posted by MickB
I just received the Jan/Feb issue of the Perfect Vision. They compare the Sharp Z12k with the H77. Shane Buetttner reviewed the projectors. He said that its quality with 720P HD material rivaled the 12k. But the H77 showed artifacts with 480P dvds and 480i and 1080i material was softer and less colorful than 480P or 720P.

My question is would the H77 owners agree with his review?

It is hard to say, because you didn't described the artifacts he saw. What kind of problems were there? Are his complaints in line with this forums opinions?

BTW, I just noticed that dropping contrast level did have quite a significant effect on artifacts. Especially lousy and color-banded s-video looks now much better than earlier. It seems it's quite easy to spoil the picture by boosting the contrast. Even Noise Filter seemed to work fine, without too serious side effects (which is usually not the situation).

I only view 720p dvd with the bravo using DVI. HDTV 1080i with comcast using component and OTA 480p networks with component. All these look excellent. Sometimes I'll switch my replay TV over with S-video, it looks soft but that's to be expected. Still watchable though.

I find 1080i/component detailed with very good contrast and colors. I've used 1080i hdtv with DVI also which looks great and maybe a few percentage points better than component.

Picked up my H77 last Sunday, and now have it fixed to the ceiling (had to make a diy mount) and it's up and running.

Had to alter the settings in PowerDVD (HTPC) for the needle pulse test bars to become visible, as nothing I did with the pj would reveal them, but I've got that adjusted Ok now. The black bars looked a little red, so tweaked that out a bit, but will use Colorfacts and some filters after Christmas. Will be intersting to see what settings and results we get between us Tom.

Another wierd thing is that this unit had some slight posterisation on the U571 scene (compared to my HT1000) when I demo'd it, but I could live with that and was hoping to reduce it further when calibrating, but I tried the same scene tonight, the posterisation had gone. Strange but true...

My only niggle with it is that I know have to have it 12ins from the ceiling as my screen is 19ins from the ceiling. It's above the rear of the seats, so I'm going to move it back 9ins and that should do the trick hopefully.

So far, out of the box it's not leaps and bounds ahead of my Hoya tweaked HT1000, but I'm hoping to change that with calibration and filters. Can't wait till Christmas is over do I can have a proper setting up session. :)

Gary.

Sounds good Gary, throw some HDTV on it, you should see a difference. :)
enjoy

mnederst
In the Perfect Vision he said that the H77 showed distracting breakup in motion and camera pans via DVI or component video inputs. Using the Bravo D1 scaling to 720p did not help remove it.

Overall everyone here seems to love their H77. I find it strange when the reviews paint a different picture. So I am hoping someone here can set things straight.

No problemo here. :)

I'm at 800hrs and still tooling along with no hitches.

Originally posted by MickB
mnederst
In the Perfect Vision he said that the H77 showed distracting breakup in motion and camera pans via DVI or component video inputs. Using the Bravo D1 scaling to 720p did not help remove it.

Overall everyone here seems to love their H77. I find it strange when the reviews paint a different picture. So I am hoping someone here can set things straight.

Gee...what a shock:rolleyes:

Nobody here has problems with panning motions except for a minute couple. Do we need a vote. :)

The funny thing about the forum is I'm down in the Digital RPTV forum about to make a purchase and there's talke everywhere about motion on the RPTV DLP's & DLIA, LCDs.

I'm planning on a JVC DLIA and not too worried. ;)

I'm in the shopping mood for a projector, what screen would recommend to mate with the H77? DaLite or Stewart? I am looking for a motorized 16x9 screen.

What Bay Area stores have the H77 that I can see?

What size are you thinking. Anything over 110 diag. and I'd go with some gain. The motorized Silverstar should be out soon. I love mine at 123". If you want a giant plasma ;) . DaLite Hi Power would be nice if you are table mounting the PJ. My dealer said Stewart has something new called "grey dove"? Says it will be nice with the H77. May want to check out the Screen Forum. Many here report good results with the Firehawk also.

I am still looking for panning artifacts. Watched MANY games in HD on Sunday and MNF, (damn it looked good!). I have seen minimal banding on occasion, but no panning artifacts. I only watch 720P DVI and sometimes 1080i. I really can't tell the difference between 1080i and 720p on my setup. It may be there, but most of my viewing is 720p. I didn't try 480p when I had the 12k at my house. But I know with 720 the H77's pic had more punch since it was brighter. I used the 12k with medium Iris position and lamp on hi.

Originally posted by MickB
mnederst
In the Perfect Vision he said that the H77 showed distracting breakup in motion and camera pans via DVI or component video inputs. Using the Bravo D1 scaling to 720p did not help remove it.

Overall everyone here seems to love their H77. I find it strange when the reviews paint a different picture. So I am hoping someone here can set things straight.

There is no definite answer to this issue. I've seen two different units (with the latest firmware), with s-video, component, dvi, and with & without iScan, and the problems are every time there: a little bit color posterisation and blurring on panning scenes.

But every dlp (at least every single chip machine) has these problems, more or less. They are quite visible in H77, but I still can live with it. So overall I'm quite happy with my H77, but not as happy as Tom is, I guess. :)

I would recommend against Da-Lite Video Spectra for this machine (all DLPs ?).

I found black level increased, rainbows were much more obvious and also, the tiny beads which make up the surface intermittantly shimmer. I wondered if this is the dlp mirrors swinging back/forth ?

I had none of these problem with Video Spectra using CRT, LCD or DILA, though that surface does have a slight texture which is visible with all the above, it was never distracting enough to change.

Originally posted by Nav Sandhu
I'm in the shopping mood for a projector, what screen would recommend to mate with the H77? DaLite or Stewart? I am looking for a motorized 16x9 screen.

What Bay Area stores have the H77 that I can see?

Real easy for you. You can see a demo at the headquarters in Milpitas. Whats that 5mins away. :)

They have a showcase room there, pretty nice one to. Many rows of seats with sound stage. Just call them up the operator will know who to put you threw to.

Originally posted by mnederst
There is no definite answer to this issue. I've seen two different units (with the latest firmware), with s-video, component, dvi, and with & without iScan, and the problems are every time there: a little bit color posterisation and blurring on panning scenes.

But every dlp (at least every single chip machine) has these problems, more or less. They are quite visible in H77, but I still can live with it. So overall I'm quite happy with my H77, but not as happy as Tom is, I guess. :)

You know what it is for me. I'm use to DLP's, I've had about seven of them and only one LCD. Now that I'm looking for a digital RPTV I couldn't see troubles with the sets I've viewed at the stores. Probably for me I just accustomed to the way the video is.

I can see a problem if it's right in your face. Like when I first got into front projectors nothing on the NEC LT150 but I demoed the Infocus LS110 and it showed what I'd call trailing pixels with panning motions. Nothing like that on my LT150z.

Things have been great with the last few machines I've had.

Hey the salesman said on RPTV DLP's that the HD3 doesn't look as good as the HD2+. The tech at Optoma says the second dimple fix makes for even better blacks and a big boost in contrast. Maybe things work out different for RPTV's. Anyone with thoughts on that?

Originally posted by guitarman
You know what it is for me. I'm use to DLP's, I've had about seven of them and only one LCD. Now that I'm looking for a digital RPTV I couldn't see troubles with the sets I've viewed at the stores. Probably for me I just accustomed to the way the video is.

I can see a problem if it's right in your face. Like when I first got into front projectors nothing on the NEC LT150 but I demoed the Infocus LS110 and it showed what I'd call trailing pixels with panning motions. Nothing like that on my LT150z.

Things have been great with the last few machines I've had.

I agree mostly. The problems are always relative to something. I've also have had several othe dlp's and one lcd, and every one has it's own kind of problems. Not a single one is all good, there are only average, bad, and worse projectors. I would say that H77 is very much average.

I think it's the same thing in audio: the better the things will be, the visible (or audible) are the last problems. And when source material is better, then the end result will also be better.

(In fact, that's why it's always interesting to hear peoples experiences with H77 & HD based source. Unfortunately we don't have it very much in Europe yet.)

Hi Mick,

I'm feeding mine vi DVI from an HTPC 1280x720 @ 60hz and no noticable problems yet. Hi Def does look pretty good now, although it looked great on the HT1000 as well.

Gary

I just auditioned H77 at a home on a 106" Dalite and liked the picture. The sales manager from Optoma told me that they are releasing a new model H79 on the 6th of Jan but could not give me any details. He said the company is keeping it secret until the release. I think he is being honest. He actually told me to wait until after the new one is out. Anyone has any more info?

And what of the H78, as mentioned in this very thread (I knew I'd seen it somewhere):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4830632#post4830632

?

Dan

I'd have to guess the H79 is an HD3. I've heard the HD3 can be brighter, not that we need it. You don't know how many times I've checked to see if I'm in bright mode thinking the pictures way bright. Nope still in econo mode ;)

Originally posted by guitarman
I'd have to guess the H79 is an HD3. I've heard the HD3 can be brighter, not that we need it. You don't know how many times I've checked to see if I'm in bright mode thinking the pictures way bright. Nope still in econo mode ;)


You mean dc3 not HD3 i bet, My guess is (or maybe i should say hope) they will create a better normal and bright mode. By keeping the output or normal mode stable to what it is now they should be able to lower the bulb output by atleast 15% to 25% resulting in more 'sim2' like results of longer bulb life and deeper blacks. What we need is better blacks not more cr at this point.

Daniel.

For that matter the last batch s/b called dc2+'s. Next models have the second dimple fix, I thought I heard something about better fill also but I could be wrong. I hope they'll have an even more 3D image.

Just had a quick play with my H77, and measured 2600:1 CR. I calibrated to D65 with an fl-day (yellow filters I had were too strong to be useful with the blue), and the CR was still over 2500:1.

Blacks not as good as my Ht1000 with filter and iris closed though. That's something else I might look into at a later stage.

If this pj had an iris like the HT1000 (assuming it doesn't already have something like a fixed iris), then that could add around 50% more CR like it does with my NEc (1300+:1 irisopen, 1800+ - 2000:1 closed).

Still need more time to tweak as I'm not happy with the gamma curve (about 2.55 and not a curve I like the look of), but with Christmas etc, I doubt that will happen till next week now.

Gary.

Sounds good Gary, try white peak at 2.

I played with the white peaking but it did some odd things with U571 scene. What results did you get with it?

Gary

At higher numbers you'll get white crush. I'll use a blue sky scene with clouds. At 2 the crush went away. The effect is the white gets whiter and adds a little to the contrast.

I'll have another look at the overall effect. The U571 scene showed an odd white hot-spot from the lamp which was the cause of posterisaton in some models. It looked unnatural so I put it back to 1 which looks fine. Did you redo the contrast afterwards?

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Hi Mick,

I'm feeding mine vi DVI from an HTPC 1280x720 @ 60hz and no noticable problems yet. Hi Def does look pretty good now, although it looked great on the HT1000 as well.

Gary


Why not drive it at 50hz, the pal model becomes alot more silent at 50hz.

Daniel.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
I'll have another look at the overall effect. The U571 scene showed an odd white hot-spot from the lamp which was the cause of posterisaton in some models. It looked unnatural so I put it back to 1 which looks fine. Did you redo the contrast afterwards?

Gary.

Yes I would redo the contrast each time. I just use the white peak because it's available. If I see crushing I'll lower it down. What I like about is the purity in the white. Something like when they forgot to use bleach for your white shirts, you wanted them whiter. ;)

Hi Danialo,

I was so used to running everything at 60hz on the HT1000 that I didn't think of trying 50hz - I take it you use Powerstrip for 50hz then?

Tom,

I'll have another go with the white peaking when I get the chance and let you know.

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Hi Danialo,

I was so used to running everything at 60hz on the HT1000 that I didn't think of trying 50hz - I take it you use Powerstrip for 50hz then?

Tom,

I'll have another go with the white peaking when I get the chance and let you know.

Gary.

No i use a dvdo HD+ scaler to change the framerate to 50hz or 48hz but for fun put in a 'normal' pal signal (should be easy for someone in the uk) and see how much dB's less the H77 goes i was so impressed by this i took the time to recast all the signals to a lower speed. The second reason is that the colorwheel then moves more at 4x (compared to ntsc) then 5x (240hz vs 300hz).

Not sure if it has any other effects but if you can do it i would research 50hz over dvi.

Daniel.

Hi Daniel,

Interesting stuff. I'll have3 to give it a go via component from a standalone player I have and see what difference it makes.

I did wonder why it wasn't as quiet as I thought it should be, but assumed it was because it's lower from the ceiling than my HT1000 was. :)

Cheers.

Gary.

Guys,

I have someone PM about running the Optoma H77 on a 136" diag FireHawk. No way!

If anyone here is running on such a large screen - remember that lamps have a half-life and will dim 50%. Throw on a ND2 filter to make sure you will be happy with your screen. Lamps burn-in quicker than you think and lose much of their initial brightness. Do not design your setup based on how bright it is out of the box.

Stereophile Ultimate AV got 22.5 ftL on a 92" diag FireHawk (with the Mitsu clone) - that is the max you want to go - because half that gets you down <12ftL once the lamp dims - which is less than movie reference.

If you are using Vutec SilverStar - different story - go as large as they will make it!

Hi Kras,

In general, do these UHP lamps generaly drop to a level which stays reasonably consistent after approx 100hrs, then starts to drop further as it nears the end of it's life? Got any 'rule of thumb' figures perhaps?

Gary.

Andrea just got the Mits HC2000 to do a review on and ask me for the service code. I haven't been there lately and I'm not home to test, am I right I told him

Re-sync, source, enter at the same time directly on the projector?

I would say 10% life not 100hrs. I don't keep demos to end of life but try to periodically recalibrate to see where I am at. And customers don't want to pay me for a recalibration just to see how bright they are every few hundred hours.

I see as much as 40% brightness drop at 10% life (on two SP4805 so far). I recently burned in the SP7205 to 10% life - brightness drop and red decrease is noticeable but have to measure/recalibrate yet.

Bob Williams from Infocus says 10% life is the instability then it settles in for a gradual drop - and lamp life is specified as the average at which 50% brightness occurs.

The one thing I do know - is - don't plan for 50% brightness means guaranteed dissapointment!

I strongly recommend auditioning screens with the ND2 filter in place - if you don't like it now - you will not like it then.

I'm at 800hrs now in econo and the pictures still very bright in econo. I have no need to use high/bright yet. Then again I'm using a 1.0gain 106" screen.

Just had a few more minutes to try a couple of things. Out of the box contrast seems to be around 2200:1 to 2300:1. A small increase in blue and green contrast after adding the FL-Day easily adds 200 to 300:1 to that figure. By bumping the colours up as high as they will go, I read almost 3000:1 CR. I was testing out ND filters as well as the fl-day, but if the 3000:1 figure is repeatable, then I would think the correct colour correction filter should allow a similar CR at D65.

Kras, what device do you find works the best with Colorfacts? I've an older sensor, but was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the Eye One or the newer Trichromat sensor.

Gary.

Gary

See my recent colorfacts forum post. You can refurb your old sensor - which I think is the best way to go at the moment since it does not suffer dark readings - and I am still convinced eight filters are better than three - but if it is old it likely has drifted. If you want accurate primary/secondary color measurements or color filter spectral analysis go for the EyeOne (my refurb Spyder sensor does red/green fine now - but is shy on blue - but that can be extrapolated from cyan/magenta) The EyeOne is not fast - for that you want the Trichromat.

Personally I will wait for the ColorVision Spyder 2 - the new version of the original ColorFacts sensor.

I don't think you can make a general recommendation for filters and settings though - ColorFacts is required for individual analysis.

My burned in SP4805 was a few clicks cyan and FL-D helped, whereas others burned in SP4805 were a few clicks yellow and FL-D hurt - a blue filter was required. Infocus is an optically recalibrating colorwheel per colortemp- so for the yellow SP4805 I was able to add blue from the colorwheel by choosing the bluer 7500K. Other projectors that does not work if they digitally mix their colors.

Hi Kras,

Just read your posts over on Milori. The Spyder 2 may be the one to go for then.

Where do you source your filters from? Do you have a good selection or are you capable of determining accurately what filter you need from CF? I'm still picking things up with respect to calibration, and I can't see how to do this. I remember you pointing out a method using CIE chart data, but how do you convert that to a real world color correction filter?

Thanks.

Gary.

I think Cine4home got 3500:1 at D65 with filter. I don't think he ever said which one though.

Hi Cilient,

That's good to know - something to aim for. :)

Do you have a link at all? I can't find it on the Cine4home website.

Thanks

Gary.

Gary Lightfoot,

I only use FLD or ND filters - it is too expensive to stock CC filters. As a calibrator - I don't want to charge two trips - one to figure the filter, another to come back and fine tune. B&H Photo Online seems to be the most reliable source. I just do not think it is practical to try to achieve the mythical contrast ratio with color filtering - I don't know of correlation of ColorFacts measures with filter manufacturer - it is more try and see - sure you need blue - but what hue and saturation? Cine4Home.de does not quote filters used for good reason - every projector and lamp is different.

Do you have a link at all? I can't find it on the Cine4home website.
Gary, pages 14 and 17 of this thread.

Cheers all.

Merry Christmas!

Gary.

Cheers here also, Xmas morning I have King Arthur showing on the H77. Allot of dark scenes in this movie and handled very well. Oh and what's with that chick? If she's 16 I'm a monkeys uncle. :)
enjoy

Originally posted by guitarman
Andrea just got the Mits HC2000 to do a review on and ask me for the service code. I haven't been there lately and I'm not home to test, am I right I told him

Re-sync, source, enter at the same time directly on the projector?

I noticed the mits has discrete on/off on its remote. Any chance these would work on the H77?

Any chance someoe has the mits codes in a pronto file? :)

No discrete on/off is a big disappointment as it makes automation extremely clumsy for me, and in some instances impossible. I had just gotten to the point where no one in my family needed me to control the theater but now we're back to sqaure 2. It's very annoying.

John

I noticed theres remote downloads for the digital RPTVs at the Optoma website. Maybe after CES the engineer can work on a fille for H77 users.

Originally posted by guitarman
I noticed theres remote downloads for the digital RPTVs at the Optoma website. Maybe after CES the engineer can work on a fille for H77 users.

Ya the RPTV codes dont seem to work. How would i get some focus on this issue with Optoma?

John

One of the designers is in milpitas Ca, he said he could set up a file but things got busy with the new models. If I keep asking maybe he will work on it.

Originally posted by guitarman
One of the designers is in milpitas Ca, he said he could set up a file but things got busy with the new models. If I keep asking maybe he will work on it.

Tom,

I have understood that you have quite a lot to do with Optoma's engineers. Have you ever asked, is it possible to get a newer firmware which can change the speed of the H77 colorwheel like Mitsubishi does? I think that could be the right solution to some problems (like colour posterisation & motion artefacts).

It would be a shame to get totally rid of this projector bacause of these problems. As far as I know there are really no good competitors in this price class. At least not right now.

Hi guys!
Thanks to Tom, I have now the correct sequence for the Mits HC 2K (quoting:

"To go to the Factory Menu:-

Press the 'Auto Position' + Source + Enter buttons simultaneously 2 times
then the 'Auto Position' + Source + Menu buttons simultaneously 2 times


then to activate the options:-

Press 'Auto Position' + Source + Down buttons simultaneously" )


Here's what I found (sorry for the awful shot, I'm rushing to watch a Xmas movie with the whole family... ;) ):

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/_shared/avs/Mits HC2000 Service menu_b.JPG

Then we have the Picture menu here:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/_shared/avs/Mits HC2000 Picture menu_b.JPG

and maybe the 2 that seem more appealing, this:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/_shared/avs/Mits HC2000 DPTV3D_b.jpg

and this!!!

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/_shared/avs/Mits HC2000 Degamma_b.jpg

For example, I found the deafult "8" being less valind then the 7...

I'll be more focused later!

The menu looks almost identical with H77, except of course in Optoma there is no option for 4x in CWI. Also interesting thing to notice is that motion detection default(?) is 'on' rather than 'off, unlike in Optoma. I wonder what kind of effect that could have on the picture.

BTW, have you already tried the effect of changing colorwheel speed? Which one is better?

Originally posted by mnederst
The menu looks almost identical with H77, except of course in Optoma there is no option for 4x in CWI. Also interesting thing to notice is that motion detection default(?) is 'on' rather than 'off, unlike in Optoma. I wonder what kind of effect that could have on the picture.

BTW, have you already tried the effect of changing colorwheel speed? Which one is better?

We talked about the slower color wheel speed, he said they wouldn't add that an that I'd be hard pressed to see a difference using it. Also he said in an signal area that might see contour lowering the CWI by two numbers might help..

You could test some of the available items. Mine 3Dpro area is -
Noise reduction on
SD/ED comb filter auto
Gamma was 1
Motion Detection off //but I'm looking over on. Motion is good with my pj.
Image format 800/600 native

Gamma has choices of 1 thru 5. I'm taking a look at 5. To choose different gamma's use the left arrow button on the remote

Originally posted by mnederst
Also interesting thing to notice is that motion detection default(?) is 'on' rather than 'off, unlike in Optoma. I wonder what kind of effect that could have on the picture.


The only thing I changed (I got the projector 2 evenings ago and yesterday we had Xmas dinner...) was noticing that there were some artifacts with horizontal pannings. So the first thing I changed was motion detection, that wass originally in OFF position... ;)

How long before we can expect a review up at htprojectors?

Originally posted by Andrea Manuti
The only thing I changed (I got the projector 2 evenings ago and yesterday we had Xmas dinner...) was noticing that there were some artifacts with horizontal pannings. So the first thing I changed was motion detection, that wass originally in OFF position... ;)

Did changing the setting improve panning artifacts?

John