Originally posted by guitarman
One of the designers is in milpitas Ca, he said he could set up a file but things got busy with the new models. If I keep asking maybe he will work on it.

Please bug him. :)

John

Tom:
as you know, I've just received the unit and need time to get acquainted to. When I got the unit from the distributor, hours were 16 and the unit was tested by other magazines (I don't know how many). At this starting point the counter says 24, and I'm right at the beginning... Not every reviewer was born the same! ;) So I guess at least 10 days.


John:
about artifacts, my first answer could be "yes, definitely". But you have to allow me that I'm dealing with a unit I don't know, with a software that interacts with a deinterlacer I'm not familiar with. I've seen the Pixelworks inside, used as scaler, I guess. But I have to understand if the parameters I'm using are related to interlaced video (the one I used with component) or DVI too. So I don't want to rush too much: being in a hurry is often the easiest way to raise the average level of entropy in the world, and this is not a good service... ;) Let me tweak this wonderful software and I'll be more specific!

Originally posted by Andrea Manuti
Tom:
John:
about artifacts, my first answer could be "yes, definitely". But you have to allow me that I'm dealing with a unit I don't know, with a software that interacts with a deinterlacer I'm not familiar with. I've seen the Pixelworks inside, used as scaler, I guess. But I have to understand if the parameters I'm using are related to interlaced video (the one I used with component) or DVI too. So I don't want to rush too much: being in a hurry is often the easiest way to raise the average level of entropy in the world, and this is not a good service... ;) Let me tweak this wonderful software and I'll be more specific!

Yes i understand and look forwarard to your full analysis!

Andrea/Tom, do either of you know what this feature is supposed to do? I have an external scaler and am always sending a 720p/59.94 signal to the H77 so will this feature even affect my setup?

John

John,
we have to consider how an MPEG-2 structure is composed.

I don't want to go deeply into some video theory, and excuse me if I'll be concise and approximate!

We have blocks and macroblocks, that are basically "cells" grouped by 4 and 8 (or multiples). When generating a reduced stream of information (i.e., making a compressed file by the original movie) we have to "group" some kind of information in the DVD.
We have basically to "guess" how geometry and colors are reproduced (and this is why a 1920 x 1080 DMD will be far better than a 1280 x 720...), but this is not the whole story.

We need to characterize movement too, that carries a part of digitalization too.
In other words, we need to "predict" where a block will be in the next frame: right, left, up, down...

This is "motion detection": a guess of where the image will be in the next frame!

When decoding the MPEG-2 stream, you have some flags on the pictures you use, that are called B, P or I, according to the content of info they carry, that help you understanding the correct flow of images.
Every single manufacturer develops his own algorithms to make this more efficient and more realistic.

So, if you have a good deinterlacer/scaler combo on the projector, there's no reason to split this process (first deinterlacing, then scaling) in two: the chip the pj has can do the job (i.e., I send only interlaced component to most of the projectors I test).

If, for some reason, there's no way to have a clear image, you need an external scaler: if you want an actual example, try to have a Runco working with external processor! They are factory modded and there's nothing you can do to obtain a good image if you don't use THEIR processor. I tried with a friend of mine with 3 different processor on a CL-710 (he bought a 576p processor from the store and I went insane: "A HD chip with a 576 scaler? Shame!"): it was IMPOSSIBLE getting an image and I had to get back to the poor original Runco processor bundled with the 710.
But, apart from this, in general we don't need external processing, IMHO.

At the end of this verbose answer, if you deinterlace and scale your DVD externally, this parameter, IMHO, should not affect your final image.

But the question is: how good is your image? I mean, do you notice artifacts? I generally use this scene (tr. 26 from Gladiator) and what follows

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/msos/dsc08377.jpg

to examine horizontal and vertical pannings and see what kind of artifacts are generated.
Try to check and see what happens!

Here there are some updates.
I made a general reset within the service and user menus, to be sure there's no external contribution to the phenomenon.
Please take into account that the unit IS NOT calibrated, so just consider the results for what they are.

As for this initial exam, the problem seems to be more present with component interlaced rather than with DVI.

I had some reduction, at least on still images, moving CWI X4 to 34 and CWI X5 to 33 from the default values of 31 and 28 respectively.


Here we have default conditions, with component PAL interlaced to the HC 2000:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/CP def Contour Y2_b.JPG

Same shot with CWIs to 34 and 33:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/CP CW34 rid_b.JPG


But if you look at the same scene from HTPC, Radeon 9700, Catalyst 4.04 drivers through DVI, the problem seems to be somehow reduced (please note that this is NTSC DVD, tr. 7: time is here 36:22, while for PAL is 34:54):

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/DVI CW34 rid_b.JPG

I know that 800 x 600 is too tiny to see differences, but I have larges images available at your request.

So in this initial (mine!) evaluation step, the problem seems to be related to HC2K's deinterlacer and scaler, that is NOT functioning when you feed the DVI through a direct 1280 x 720 progressive signal.

At least for now... ;)

What is the CWI setting for the DVI input shots from your radeon?

John

Ok on the timing and DVI. Most likely Mits didn't get this particular machine back to add their firmware. Which is a timing fix I would think. Here's some interesting reading for you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447048&highlight=Mitsubishi+HC2000

Andrea - try the ADC service adjustments if it is component only - it maybe quantizing the sampling if there are some video adjustments made? CWI should be color wheel indexing - i.e. exact amount of time spent in each color - make sure it is not overlapping into the other colors causing color error?

I don't see any banding on the HTPC - but I see it in both component pictures. It looks like signal processing used to remove film grain to me - possible in the deinterlacer chip making everything look less noisy - but flat or banded.

Another thing in ADP, it's ok to use BLack Calibration and White Calibration but don't use Magenta Calibration. I was told we can't generate a correct Magenta pattern and that Avia was off.

You use the Avia full on white/ full off black pattern if you decide to try auto cal.

my ADP's
R gain 187
G gain 160
B gain 187

R offsett 51
G offset 58
B offset 55

My picture settings,
G R 127
G G 115
G B 110

B R 114
B G 125
B B 100

I also did a reset on my machine (not recommend, unless you're good at tuning or have equipment)

Interesting, when I did the reset I picked up all new preset tunings in each of the User Advanced menu's with the different signals. I figured they would all be at zero after a full reset.

Originally posted by guitarman
You could test some of the available items. Mine 3Dpro area is -


Thanks for the hints. I've tried several positions of CWI, and I think the best for my unit is 29 or 30. But there is always some color banding. I tried also NGD Efficiency again but I didn't see any difference, so I'm keeping it in default position (which was '1' in my unit). Maybe feeding H77 with the native signal would help, at least pictures by Andrea Manuti seemed very convincing.

I just watched one film with Motion detector set 'on', but it was more like enjoying the film than critical viewing. Still I would say that motion scenes weren't any worse than usual, maybe even a little bit better. I've to check this later.

Originally posted by Expletive
What is the CWI setting for the DVI input shots from your radeon?

John


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/IMG/Mits_HC2000/dsc04582_b.jpg

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Andrea - try the ADC service adjustments if it is component only - it maybe quantizing the sampling if there are some video adjustments made? CWI should be color wheel indexing - i.e. exact amount of time spent in each color - make sure it is not overlapping into the other colors causing color error?

I don't see any banding on the HTPC - but I see it in both component pictures. It looks like signal processing used to remove film grain to me - possible in the deinterlacer chip making everything look less noisy - but flat or banded.

krasmuzik,
if you hit ADC, both component or DVI, nothing happens on the HC 2K. You have to go to the "Picture" menu to find this:


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/Mits HC2000 Picture menu_b.JPG

It works both on DVI and component, as low and high levels adjustment.
"ADC" buzzes me about Analog to Digital Conversion or similar, so it should work only with component. But in my unit is dead...

I agree about CWI: I was told by SIM2 technicians not to touch these values, because they are factory set. But here it seems it has some value!

About images, yes: in the HTPC is actually close to zero, but if you look try to see it, is there: slight, but still present (and we HT buffs are really going insane when finding defects!).

In any case, since this is exactly the same I've seen on the SIM2 HT300 Link (watch here)

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/_SHARED/AVS/Contouring 2_b.JPG

I thought it could be a digital component issue: for the Link it was located within the Link unit, i.e. digital to optic conversion.
Here it appears to be associated with some CW characteristics.
But I'm not satisfied since the issue is not exactly resolved... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by guitarman
Another thing in ADP, it's ok to use BLack Calibration and White Calibration but don't use Magenta Calibration. I was told we can't generate a correct Magenta pattern and that Avia was off.

Y


Tom,
you should stop (and you are!) playing with toys like Avia or VE and see what a REAL calibration process is! I frankly wouldn't dare to calibrate nothing but a dishwasher with a simple test disc... we need an instruments to take correct readings from experience, and learn a lot! :p

One bit of information again.

Please be extremely careful with different inputs, at least with the Mits.

This is default for DVI

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/dsc04573_b.jpg

and this is for component:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/dsc04595_b.jpg


More, if you enter the service menu and then get back to user, altering some value trying to memorize it in the User 1,2 or Memory 1, 2 or 3 locations, your values are reset each time to the initial ones.
So be extremely careful not to loose your work: you think you are using what you got for calibration, but actually yours are other values.

But the figures I got for calibration aren't bad at all, in the end... ;)

Optoma must have Cherry picked my machine because I've been out all day looking at digital RPTV, DLIA, LCD, CRT and nothing compares to the HDTV image I'm seeing here at home with the H77.

Andrea ADP doesn't open up unless I use a progressive signal. ADP is where you find the black and contrast auto calibrations, which you use the Avia full 100ire and 0 IRE irrespectively.

But I am happy I'm stepping back into the colorfacts game and I'll have the one-eye and Tricolor meters. Just a week away :)

So have you enjoyed a decent picture with the machine? How about the color Red? One other ISF that got his hands on the H77 says it showed the best/most accurate SMPTE color alignment he's seen so far for any DLP projector.

Tom,
since you are going Colorfacts (hope the Gretag, the Trichromat is not enough for very serious evaluations! :p ), this is my answer to your 2nd question:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Mits_HC2000/Mits HC 2000 Spectral Scan 40 IRE cal.jpg

Don't you think something is missing here? ;)

Anyhow, the image is pleasant, very impressive: surely not the best I've seen in my life, but great. I think I have to work a little more on shadow details, since colors are good, maybe only apart that little shift in green that seems to be missing, but the overall balance is satisfying.
The fact that there's a lot to tweak makes me think that with in a couple of months I could get a near-to-perfect pj! And don't forget MSRP!

I had and will get the Greg Macbeth so I'm good. Tweak land for sure you can get lost with all the area's with RGB-tweaks with the H77. Two months for sure, their engineer called it "Pandora's Box".
have fun :)

Did my best to search this thread for an answer to my question but
did not find it.Are the basic video adjustments of color and hue available
on this projector when it is recieving a progressive signal(480p)from a
dvd player?

With the H77 you get color control but no hue with progressive and interlaced. You pick up hue with s-video and composite.

My Last H77's screenshot here : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/s2_screen_H77.html

;)

Does anyone have a home theater master universal remote file that works with the H77? I can't get mine to learn it's remote properly. Works with everything else I have, just not the H77. There's nothing on RemoteCentral.com.

Thanks,
Scott

Originally posted by scotthorton
Does anyone have a home theater master universal remote file that works with the H77? I can't get mine to learn it's remote properly. Works with everything else I have, just not the H77. There's nothing on RemoteCentral.com.

Thanks,
Scott

Is Home Theater Master the one that provides a pronto .ccf conversion utility?

If that's them, maybe you can download a pronto version of it from remote central.

I dont remember if thats them but just a suggestion.

John

[i]Originally posted by ExpletiveIs Home Theater Master the one that provides a pronto .ccf conversion utility?
If that's them, maybe you can download a pronto version of it from remote central. Yes, it will accept a .ccf file, but the is no ccf for the H77 either. Fot that matter, I see no ccf, or mxf file for any Optoma product on RC. I emailed Optoma, they responded that "they don't have a Pronto file at this time", sent me the 2 digit codes on a picutre of a (similar but not same) remote. But without knowing the IR protocol they use, I can't use a ccf editor to create a file I can convert (as far as I know). I've asked for same, from Optoma, maybe they can provide. If I get a file built I will share, apparantly no one has this already? I hate being an early adopter. Any help appreciated...

Originally posted by DTSman-fr
My Last H77's screenshot here : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/s2_screen_H77.html

;)

Looks good, nice tune-up with colorfacts, no more contours either. You're home free. :)

Scott,

Have posted this before on another thread. Just a basic layout of all the buttons on the remote learnt. Hope it is of use to you (and others).

Ian Guinan

Originally posted by scotthorton
Yes, it will accept a .ccf file, but the is no ccf for the H77 either. Fot that matter, I see no ccf, or mxf file for any Optoma product on RC. I emailed Optoma, they responded that "they don't have a Pronto file at this time", sent me the 2 digit codes on a picutre of a (similar but not same) remote. But without knowing the IR protocol they use, I can't use a ccf editor to create a file I can convert (as far as I know). I've asked for same, from Optoma, maybe they can provide. If I get a file built I will share, apparantly no one has this already? I hate being an early adopter. Any help appreciated...

Yeah i jsut realized i downladed a .pcf file which is the next gen pronto format.

If that helps i can send it to you.

When you talk to them about the remote codes please bitch about there being no discrete on and off codes. I'm hoping to get a movement going on that. :)

John

Originally posted by Expletive
Yeah i jsut realized i downladed a .pcf file which is the next gen pronto format.

If that helps i can send it to you.

When you talk to them about the remote codes please bitch about there being no discrete on and off codes. I'm hoping to get a movement going on that. :)

John Couldn't hurt, send me whatcha got (please) via PM or post here. I have found that one of the generic MX700 Optoma device files I have will communicate with the pj. The buttons are all wrong, but it brings up some discrete codes not on the stock remote. For instance, picture mode, and mode. Too bad I don't have a way to edit that file :(

Cheers,
Scott

I'm still tryning to choose between H77 and 7205. IT will be over soon because i planned a demo with these two projectors on Friday.

For now 136" diagonal is still planned in my room but maybe i'll have to consider a smaller screen, especially with H77 ?


What i'd like to ask now, is about DVI brightness vs YUV. The projector central review stated that YUV was 60% brighter than DVI.
I think lots of people here do use DVI...And i'm not sure i've ever seen someone complaining so far. They said (projector central) that the difference of brighness was common, but not so big with other projectors. 60% seems to be a lot.
The H77 is 900 lumens i think. But how much is it in DVI ? And how much in DVI in eco mode ?

Any comments ?
Thanks a lot.

Something was wrong with Evans tuning.

I have a component player running progressive and the Bravo DVI player running 720p, both hooked up and ready to go.

If I choose the DVI player the picture will be allot brighter than the analog setup. That's with both players tuned to the correct Avia specs.

DVI brightness on H77
I'm still tryning to choose between H77 and 7205. IT will be over soon because i planned a demo with these two projectors on Friday.

For now 136" diagonal is still planned in my room but maybe i'll have to consider a smaller screen, especially with H77 ?


What i'd like to ask now, is about DVI brightness vs YUV. The projector central review stated that YUV was 60% brighter than DVI.
I think lots of people here do use DVI...And i'm not sure i've ever seen someone complaining so far. They said (projector central) that the difference of brighness was common, but not so big with other projectors. 60% seems to be a lot.
The H77 is 900 lumens i think. But how much is it in DVI ? And how much in DVI in eco mode ?

Any comments ?
Thanks a lot.
DVI seems brighter on my setup when both inputs are tuned the same.

With a 136" diag. I think you need some gain. With the lamp on bright mode and control of ambient light I don't think you'd have a problem. At that size though, the infocus may work better for you. Let us know what you think after viewing both of them.

re H77 universal remote files:

Optoma didn't have any files to offer. They did give me the hex codes and I have used the makehex utility to generate what appears to be the full, proper (not learned) hex codes for the full range of H77 remote buttons. I used that and the Pronto edit program to create a .ccf with all the buttons on my remote plus 3 extra. I used that ccf to create a .mxd file for my Home Theater Master MX700 (B&K SR10.1).

Unfortunately I didn't discover any hidden discretes, but the 3 new ones I did discover are 1) A source sync "toggle", 2) a Pic mode menu, and 3) a Image Mode menu.

The only button I didn't test and verify is the hue button because I don't have any inputs that allow a hue adjustment. Since everything else worked, I have no reason to think this one won't but if someone could check it that would be great.

I have uploaded the HTM and the Pronto files on Remote central, I'd give it a little while for them to appear. I'm attaching here as well.

Hope it is helpful, Scott

Thanks Scott. I have a MX3000 and this is great to have! SJ

Now if we could just get some discretes out of them :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by scotthorton
re H77 universal remote files:

Optoma didn't have any files to offer. They did give me the hex codes and I have used the makehex utility to generate what appears to be the full, proper (not learned) hex codes for the full range of H77 remote buttons. I used that and the Pronto edit program to create a .ccf with all the buttons on my remote plus 3 extra. I used that ccf to create a .mxd file for my Home Theater Master MX700 (B&K SR10.1).

Unfortunately I didn't discover any hidden discretes, but the 3 new ones I did discover are 1) A source sync "toggle", 2) a Pic mode menu, and 3) a Image Mode menu.

The only button I didn't test and verify is the hue button because I don't have any inputs that allow a hue adjustment. Since everything else worked, I have no reason to think this one won't but if someone could check it that would be great.

I have uploaded the HTM and the Pronto files on Remote central, I'd give it a little while for them to appear. I'm attaching here as well.

Hope it is helpful, Scott


Could you post the source file ?, Im not planning to use it myself since i want to use rs232 control but i am somewhat guessing there are discrete codes hidden if you look at the rs232 codes.

i have attached the file but it seems all the rs232 commands relate to IR commands for the sending part and they do include codes for On and Off.

Power On = OKOKOK (i am guessing this is 0 IR 000 3 times)
Power toggle (again guesing) O IR 001)
Power Off = 0 IR 002
Source = 0 IR 003
...
Menu is 0 IR 008
...

Maybe you should calc back (substract 6 from the menu command for example) to get the Off code. before transforming the code.

Hope this helps,

Daniel.

url to the rs232 code : http://www.optomahometheater.com/documents/RS232_H77.pdf

Danielo:

The source hex file is attached per your request. I also included the 2 universal remote files (.ccf and .mxd) since they were tiny and all would be in one file.

As for going "back" from the menu command, it's really been done already by brute force. I tried every single hex code from 00 to 2F (47) and I indicated the ones in my attached hex file that did anything at all. I did not try all 255 codes since nothing I tested past 1E (#30) did anything.

Personally, I have my doubts the RS232 commands work discretely either, but I don't have a RS232 connection to test. For instance, RS232 "02" says it's for power off. The IR comand for "Power" is also "02" Sending an IR 02 will toggle on or the first off command (to the dummy "off or video mute" prompt).

FYI, I'm having some trouble getting my single button off macro to work. I'm going to try changing the timings on the 2 "02" commands required to get it to power off today. I've been limiting my "off" testing to when I really want to turn it off, which is taking to long (2 tests per day).

Guinan: Thanks for the ccf you sent/posted, I had originally missed the post while I was working on it. Do you have a single button off macro that's workign for you? what's it's timings? I don't know enough about ccf files to look at your's for myself :)

Thanks,
Scott

Anyone using the vga out from HTPC to the component inputs? I was wondering if the component inputs which are meant to be brighter would yield a better contrast ratio. Although not as clean as the DVI, I would like to see if there are any improvements from the PC via vga so having the same PC as the source would give a direct comparison. I have a vga cable already run to the H77, so I'll need a short vga to component adapter of some sort. Any recommendations?

Gary.

I think you would want a VGA to BNC breakout cable. Never took a look at what RGB-HV can look like. DVI is brighter than the RGB-component inputs, at least on my machine.

Tom,

You told me earlier about the White Calibration (+Black & Magenta) on H77 service menu. How did you change it? I tried but I couldn't make any changes. In fact it seems that there is no active indicator or level for White Calibration.

Hi Tom,

I was after something to convert my existing cable, as I already have the vga cable run to the pj. It'll be a bit tricky running another cable up there with all the others.

Mind you, if DVI is brighter, I doubt it would be worth the effort. I'll just have a look at the component image from my Skyworth player and see what it's like.

Cheers.

Gary.

Scott,

Since I did the quick and dirty .ccf I've not edited it at all because I've been too busy just watching movies! I was hoping some Pronto guru would take what I'd done and work with it.

Will try and make some time to have an experiment with off settings (my first resolution?)

Ian

Guinan, et al.:

It appears these timings work. I needed the predealy nad post delay to get it to work. May try some fine tuning, but this combo appears to work:

.1 sec delay
power off
.5 sec delay
power off
.5 sec delay
next command


Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by mnederst
Tom,

You told me earlier about the White Calibration (+Black & Magenta) on H77 service menu. How did you change it? I tried but I couldn't make any changes. In fact it seems that there is no active indicator or level for White Calibration.

You won't see anything other that the projector will go into a automated memory mode. All the service numbers will be altered so you know something did happen. :)

Write down the original numbers, never use Magenta we have no proper Magenta field. If you do you'll mess up the color.

Originally posted by guitarman
You won't see anything other that the projector will go into a automated memory mode. All the service numbers will be altered so you know something did happen. :)

Write down the original numbers, never use Magenta we have no proper Magenta field. If you do you'll mess up the color. If he can't change it, the only point of recording them would be to see he screwed it up :). I thought you could manually enter them, no? (not near PJ right now to check).

Originally posted by scotthorton
Guinan, et al.:

It appears these timings work. I needed the predealy nad post delay to get it to work. May try some fine tuning, but this combo appears to work:

.1 sec delay
power off
.5 sec delay
power off
.5 sec delay
next command


Cheers,
Scott

What exactly does this do?

John

You know what maybe these are whited out for the H77. I did the auto cal proceedure with my Optoma H30. I also dim wittedly did the Magenta also. This is how I got to know Wing and his colorfacts program. lol

Originally posted by Expletive
What exactly does this do?
It tuns off the projector with one button (along will all my other componets). I have one button to turn my entire HT setup on, one button to turn it all off. Just have to be carefull that the PJ is where it ought to be before pressing button otherwise it will be the opposite of what you wanted :(

The macro sequence sends the first "power" button press, which activates the "Power off or Video Mute" prompt, it waits .5 secs then sends the second "power" button press which answers the prompt and turns it off, then another short wait, then my macro continues to turn everything else off. See?

Originally posted by scotthorton
It tuns off the projector with one button (along will all my other componets). I have one button to turn my entire HT setup on, one button to turn it all off. Just have to be carefull that the PJ is where it ought to be before pressing button otherwise it will be the opposite of what you wanted :(

The macro sequence sends the first "power" button press, which activates the "Power off or Video Mute" prompt, it waits .5 secs then sends the second "power" button press which answers the prompt and turns it off, then another short wait, then my macro continues to turn everything else off. See?

Ok right. I was a little confused becuase this assumes the PJ is 'on'. This won't always work for me because in some isntances i'm just listening to music with no video and this would turn it on...

We really need discreets....

John

Originally posted by Expletive
We really need discreets.... Yes, exactly.

Originally posted by scotthorton
If he can't change it, the only point of recording them would be to see he screwed it up :). I thought you could manually enter them, no? (not near PJ right now to check).

No, or at least I couldn't do it. Other settings like colors in the same submenu (ADP) have their spesific values, but White Calibration is totally blank. So it seems that there is no way to change it.

White Calibration just initiates the calibration. The numbers which change are R G & B Gain in the same (ADC) menu), which I am able to revert manually.

I found certain settings in service menu to be common and other to be input/signal specific:

Common ones:
DPTV3DPRO
Colour Wheel Index
NDG Efficiency Option
DLP Brigtness
DLP Contrast
ADC (not surprisingly, affects analogue inputs only, but I wonder if it would have been better to make this input/signal specific to allow for device variation)

Input/signal specific:
Picture
Degamma Table

I found if you exit & re-enter the service menu, sometimes Degamma Table shows the selection you last made and other times it shows 00 even though the picture reflects the choice you made. All my inputs look best with DeGamma 05 (PAL machine - not sure if these vary by region).

If you are writing down settings before changing things in the service menu, make sure you record the input/signal specific ones for each input/signal you have. For example, using component, I get different settings for YCbCr/YPbPr and 480p/1080i. Interestingly, 480p 60Hz and 576p 50Hz share the same settings. Not sure if it stores different settings for the same signal via a different input though.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the auto-cals are functional on my H77. They're not whited out, I'm not going to hit them because it will alter the factory adjusted numbers in ADP and I'm happy with the tuning I have now. Maybe next week when I get colorfacts up and running I'll mess around with the black and white auto-cals. For sure I'll stay away from Magenta as told, anyway color tuning is what colorfacts is for. Looking at a CF chart from another ISF he noticed the SMPTE was the best at being spot on over any DLP projector he's tested to date. So I have high hopes color quality after a CF tune s/b excellent.

So I have high hopes color quality after a CF tune s/b excellent. I can't resist... You already DO think color quality is excellent. No?

Out of the box it's already pretty close to D65 with Gamma 2 and I think it was the middle colour temp option.

You can get it better with a filter for higher contrast though.

Gary.

I just signed up here on this forum a couple days ago and have been reading like a madman. Anyway, I'm a little late to this thread, but am in the market for a projector (along with everything else...) and saw the H77 in a local shop today. Great picture and VERY quiet. I'm trying to decide between the H77 and the Sharp XV-Z12000. Any opinions on one vs. the other between those? Also, the NEC HT1100 was mentioned to me to have a look at that as well...again, how does that compare to the H77 for anyone that has seen it?

Thanks!

~Rich

I have a slightly tweaked HT1000 and it's image is easily comparable. It lacks the resolution and a little less real world contrast, but it has slightly better image processing in my opinion. If you watch a lot of Hi Def stuff, the the H77 is good value. If not, the HT1000 is hard to beat. I have both at the moment by the way.

Gary.

I think if you read all 91 pages of this thread you'll find that: 1) the H77 would be the preference over the sharp becasue it's significantly brighter and quieter, 2) some folks had some picture issues with the H77 but they were all very "high end"/technical folks who knew every nuance to look for, while 3) other (similar) users had no problems. And that all but those just mentioned would recommend the H77, as woudl I. There are rumors of a new one to be displayed (possibly H78?) at CES in Vegas this coming weekend, but I don't know anything about it. It will presumably be more $$, but slightly better PQ. This one is hard to beat as it is IMO for PQ. Assuming controlled light enviroment and a good screen. HTH, Cheers, Scott

Thanks Scott / Gary.

Just went back and read thru about 15 pages of the thread. I forgot to ask... what's the recommended screen for the H77? I was leaning towards a Stewart. Would the Firehawk be the way to go for a 110" screen in a room with very dark brown walls/ceiling with 2 rear windows that can pretty much be blocked? Or would I be better off going with a white screen?

Thanks

~Rich

Originally posted by scotthorton
I can't resist... You already DO think color quality is excellent. No?

Acutally yes, I have a display right now that's calibrated to 6500k and the H77's balance looks the same, except it has way better resolution and blacks. The H77's color palate looks super to me. I'll post up charts of the before and after.

Originally posted by Rich Wiegard
Just went back and read thru about 15 pages of the thread. I forgot to ask... what's the recommended screen for the H77? I was leaning towards a Stewart. Would the Firehawk be the way to go for a 110" screen in a room with very dark brown walls/ceiling with 2 rear windows that can pretty much be blocked? Or would I be better off going with a white screen?

Thanks

~Rich

110" Firehawk s/b top notch with the H77. Nice screen
The only reason the trend is for a 1.3 gain or higher is the budget minded want to keep high brightness for a long time at a low dollar. Use a Firehawk and the H77 in econo for a while. When the bulb tires use high bright mode. Some what later down the road say 2,000hrs just spring for a new bulb.

Originally posted by Rich Wiegard
[B]Just went back and read thru about 15 pages of the thread. I forgot to ask... what's the recommended screen for the H77? I was leaning towards a Stewart. Would the Firehawk be the way to go for a 110" screen in a room with very dark brown walls/ceiling with 2 rear windows that can pretty much be blocked? Or would I be better off going with a white screen? Rich: Here's direct links to my comments on the firehawk...
post4536911 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4536911&highlight=firehawk+AND+CEDIA#post4536911)
post4344362 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4344362&highlight=firehawk+AND+CEDIA#post4344362)
post4341698 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4341698&highlight=firehawk+AND+CEDIA#post4341698)

HTH,
Scott

Hi Scott,

I saw a similar demo when Stewart were doing a Firehawk Tour around Europe, and I came to the exact same conclusion as you - an amazing screen that leaves no doubt to choice if you have ambient light. Unfortunatley, Stewart Screens are very expenxive here in the UK.

Gary.

Unfortunatley, Stewart Screens are very expenxive here in the UK. Here too! I think MSRP is abut $2K. It was easy to find them at %15 off. Sometimes you can get shipping included in US as I did but that was with a significant additional equipment purchase. I rationalized it as something that would outlast the PJ, something that wouldn't need to be swapped when I get the next generation PJ whatever that is. And, since it has no moving parts, has a very good reputation, it's resale value is high. I've seen them sell used for right at what I paid for mine new. :D

Over here the dealers were paying more at trade price than I could get one shipped over for retail, so some dealers were a bit put out. I don't know why that was (or if it still is the case), but maybe it's because of extra costs involved with warranty etc and shipping abroad - it can't be cheap to send international, so that has to be absorbed somewhere.

Gary.

Gary Lightfoot

I saw a similar demo when Stewart were doing a Firehawk Tour around Europe, and I came to the exact same conclusion as you - an amazing screen that leaves no doubt to choice if you have ambient light. Unfortunatley, Stewart Screens are very expenxive here in the UK.

Good point you make "if you have ambient light", however if you have good light control and dark room surfaces. you would be better off with a screen such as a Stewart Studiotek 130. The 130 has truer colours than the Firehawk, which as a slight colour shift. The Firehawk is rated at 1.3 but is apparently more like1.1.

Rich Wiegard......if you have good light control, At 110" I believe the 130 may be the better choice...however if ambient light is an issue then the Firehawk is the better choice. Contact Stewart re your room conditions and projector of choice and they will be more than helpfull.

I believe Michael Grant is using his H77 with a StudioTek 130.......care to comment Mr Grant?!

I am using my H77 with a 100" Firehawk. I wanted to have the ability to leave the room lights on, doors open, etc. We even have a window shade behind our screen that we open to let additional light in. This works great for football or other sporting events on the weekend when we are moving in and out of our HT room. Even though our HT is completely light controllable, I prefer having this option. I will say that the blacks with the Firehawk are very impressive, especially when you turn the lights out to watch a movie. However, if you only watch in a darkened room, I would agree that you should get the StudioTek 130. SJ

The only reason the trend is for a 1.3 gain or higher is the budget minded want to keep high brightness for a long time at a low dollar. Use a Firehawk and the H77 in econo for a while. When the bulb tires use high bright mode. Some what later down the road say 2,000hrs just spring for a new bulb.

Mr Guitarman, I need to respectfully disagree with that statement!.:)

Unless one has a super bright projector or tiny screen where one gets over 25 to 50 Lambert's on a 1.0 gain screen, I feel it's a waste. It's like driving down the highway in your Porsche at night with the reflectors on the car lamps smashed. The light is diffused in all directions, when what you really want is the light to illuminate the area in front of the car. Sure you can turn your lights up(if one had that capability), but that would waste energy and light.

The same applies to a projection screen. It would be much more beneficial to have the majority of light reflected off the screen concentrated in the seating area rather than evenly diffuse all over the room. Having a screen with gain, you would get the benefit of the desired brightness, use less energy, save on lamp costs and reject some ambient light - thus aiding contrast(ANSI?). Unless one had a super wide sitting area/ very bright projector(at least 900-1000 calibrated lumen's for a 110" screen inc factoring in for bulb aging),or liked a dim image, I see little point in going the 1.0 path. IMO!

The H77 is somewhat bright. If people want brighter they'll get the 1.3 or even high power. Blacks are so black on the H77 you'll have plenty of room to breath. It's a pick your preference with screens re the H77.

Tom...how many lumens does the H77 put out post calibration, high and low lamp settings? Thanks!

At the top of the previous page, I said

'I found if you exit & re-enter the service menu, sometimes Degamma Table shows the selection you last made and other times it shows 00 even though the picture reflects the choice you made. All my inputs look best with DeGamma 05 (PAL machine - not sure if these vary by region).'

Well, I've changed my mind! The projector seems to forget which degamma table to use each time the input changes and it affecting the picture - not just what the menu shows. This is really frustrating as the image changes dramatically and the defaults are far from best for me. With the best option, you get better black details and more contrast/depth to the image. It's not always resetting to 00 either - sometime 01 or 02. Maybe it is being set during the 'Auto In Progress' sequence ?

Anyone else having the same problem ? My machine is PAL C14 - I wonder if it's a firmware specific issue.

I've also discovered that it doesn't remember settings for PAL and NTSC signals on the component inputs - you have to recalibrate black levels each time as setting it for black on one will be wrong for the other (0ire and 7.5ire). It seems it only has one memory for each input, regardless of the standards.

So if you have a multi-region player, you won't be able to set the white and black levels for one without it being wrong for the other.

Gary.

Finally got the greyscale dialed in pretty good. About as good as I can do by eye with Avia. Watching the bowl games this week was a sight to behold! Best HD visuals I've witnessed thus far. Anybody see that Utah game? The red uniforms of the Utah team looked sooo juicy! I didn't care about the teams, I just enjoyed looking at the presentation! HD on the H77 is da shiznitt!

I have noticed a quirk in the advanced settings. If you go in to tweak via the advanced settings with everything set to 0 and you change the Green gain or Green bias at all, the greyscale seems to shift. Putting the Green value back to 0 does not seem to shift the greyscale back to where it was when you originally started with the Green gain or bias at 0. Is it better to change the picture settings in the service menu instead of the advanced user menu (8bit vs 10bit controls?)?

Has anyone noticed a difference with the Motion Detection On. Default on my machine is off. Haven't tried the other Degamma tables either. What about "white peaking", anyone using anything other than the default "0" setting?

Got over a 100hrs on the lamp so it's time for a real calibration. I'm inclined to rent colorfacts instead of paying a calibrator. Any thoughts? Maybe Tom will let me rent his :D I've got Smart III from my previous PJ's. Wish I could use it with the Optoma, even though for me it's a PITA to use.

Happy New Year everyone!
:cool:

If you use the service picture setting it will effect all signals. Signal wise I would use each signals advanced adjustment. You know there's probably other high end HT projector owners in your area to do a group rental. It's just finding them. Maybe a small add in the local paper would work.

To the land of Oz buddy :) My machine is at stock so when I get colorfacts I'll check the stock and then D65 lumens. Any where around the -400 area is usually where Lumens end up after a D65k calibration.

I have noticed a quirk in the advanced settings. If you go in to tweak via the advanced settings with everything set to 0 and you change the Green gain or Green bias at all, the greyscale seems to shift. Putting the Green value back to 0 does not seem to shift the greyscale back to where it was when you originally started with the Green gain or bias at 0. Is it better to change the picture settings in the service menu instead of the advanced user menu (8bit vs 10bit controls?)?
I found the identical bug. Set to 0, touch the green under advanced and poof colors go awry, setting back to 0 makes no difference, does not reset. Changing sources back and forth was the only thing I could do to seem to get it cleared, but I didn't have a warm fuzzy feeling about it casue I don't know what it did. I *think* tom's wrong about the service level. I believe it is different for each input, but I won't have time to confirm until next week.
Has anyone noticed a difference with the Motion Detection On. Default on my machine is off. Haven't tried the other Degamma tables either. What about "white peaking", anyone using anything other than the default "0" setting? [/qoute] Ditto. What degamma tables? I don't have anything called degamma tables? I still hav ethe c08 firmware though, yours later?
[quote]Got over a 100hrs on the lamp so it's time for a real calibration. I'm inclined to rent colorfacts instead of paying a calibrator. Any thoughts? I had similar thoughts but the rental dosen't include the more expensive sensor, so it was hard to swallow.

I've got Smart III from my previous PJ's. Wish I could use it with the Optoma, even though for me it's a PITA to use. I bought the generic Smart III version for xmas. I've been muddling through it, it is tedious to do, but I've pretty good at it now. I dont' mind the extra work, but I don't trust the default generic color provided. I've got mine dialed in with it, but the grays look greenish. I've experienced other little quirks with the H77's adjustments but nothing I cna put my finger on other than the one you described above. Because of it, I've been sticking with service level adjustments. I'm almost positive I changed inputs and the service levels were completely different for that input. I got the DLP generic since we couldn't get Optoma to let him have one to tune with :(. I've asked Smallcombe a few questions about mine but haven't heard back.

Cheers,
Scott

I think I noticed the same thing with the adjustments but thought it was a glitch - I was moving them to see where each colour maxed out whilst watching Colorfacts and the ire field by eye, but when going back to see when the colour started to reduce it wasn't at the same place where it seemed to stop increasing going up. I'll have another look tomorrow.

I think an 81B filter is looking like a good choice to color balance colour temp 2/gamma 2 with max RGBs after setting white and black levels (blue and green higher than red), but I'll make sure this is still the case with the adjustment glitch that might be present.


Gary.

I think the one which affects all inputs in the service menu is ADC (ADP on NTSC machines ?). I think the Picture settings seem to be input specific and linked to the Advanced adjustments in the user menu.

Scott, the new tricolor meter is a good device. It's a little simpler to use over the one-eye. With the one-eye you have to keep resetting and doing dark readings I first thought the new meter couldn't be too good but Mark at Miliori says the meter is accurate for adjusting grayscale. I think each device has it's slight advantage over the over. You figure they wouldn't sell that thing in the $2400 package if it wasn't any good.

Originally posted by guitarman
Scott, the new tricolor meter is a good device. It's a little simpler to use over the one-eye. With the one-eye you have to keep resetting and doing dark readings I first thought the new meter couldn't be too good but Mark at Miliori says the meter is accurate for adjusting grayscale. I think each device has it's slight advantage over the over. You figure they wouldn't sell that thing in the $2400 package if it wasn't any good. Yeah, I had a long talk with them at CEDIA and had a full demo. They said the same thing, each had it's advantages. The less expensive one was better at measuring low IRE's IIRC, and the more expensive was more accurate with color, but that was a few months back so dont' remember the details. Still hate to rent the bugger. Could probably buy one and resell it for less of a loss and an almost unlimited rental period. Just difficult to rationalize for home use. Smart III works well from a functionality standpoint and just isn't as automated. Just needs a better reference point for the H77 I think.

Smart III is not suitable for playing with color filters as Gary is doing. It may not even be suitable if your lamp/colorwheel deviates from what they have profiled with it's RGB filters. I know ColorFacts was unsuitable back in the day they were doing simply RGB filtering like SmartIII rather than eye response filtering. You essentially need a profile for every display you use it on - which is not practical to do.

Colorfacts is better because all the meters have filters in them that simulate the eye's response. If you want to play with color filter tweaking and projector reviews get the Eye-One, if you want to have accurate lumens/contrast and fast calibrations - get the TrichoMat. Or get both! I am happy with my new Spyder - maybe they will support the Spyder2 since it is manufactured by their parent company.

Thanks Tom!............for the preliminary info re H77's lumen output.

You could start lobbying to have all projector manufacturers rate their Projectors at D6500 post Cal!..........!!!!

Thanks Again!

Getting pretty close to going with the H77 for my projector, but do you guys have concerns that the H77 doesn't have an HDMI port considering that it seems that is where everything is moving too?

I heard there may be some new, less expensive options for calibrating announced at CES. Maybe someone attending the show can verify.

Originally posted by Rich Wiegard
Getting pretty close to going with the H77 for my projector, but do you guys have concerns that the H77 doesn't have an HDMI port considering that it seems that is where everything is moving too?

The H77 is HDCP compliant and comes with a DVI/HDMI :) adapter (it has a DVI input). Since you are not running digital audio into the machine anyway, I believe that it really should not matter. SJ

I think SJHT means it comes with a DVI-HDMI adapter. There are several users who have HDMI sources input to the H77. I wouldn't be too concerned about the lack of an HDMI port. I think most PJ's still lack a HDMI port. I'm inputting everything via the DVI port and feel it's sharper than component.

Take the plunge Rich and don't look back! ;)

Originally posted by Rich Wiegard
Getting pretty close to going with the H77 for my projector, but do you guys have concerns that the H77 doesn't have an HDMI port considering that it seems that is where everything is moving too? Rich: I *may* have an opportunity to get a 3-chip DLP after CES. If I do, my H77 will have under 50 hours on it....

Rich Wiegard.........HDMI is the same as DVI electrically/electronically just a different pin layout with the addition of digital audio. So as SJHT & Client1 have said with a DVI-HDMI adapter........all will be OK!'

See Here:http://www.hifi-writer.com/blog/20040408.htm

BTW what type and screen size did you end up getting?

Rich Wiegard.........HDMI is the same as DVI electrically/electronically just a different pin layout with the addition of digital audio.

HDMI also includes the ability to transmit YCbCr. DVI just does RGB. If you are using HDMI-DVI connection, then you are limited to RGB output. No technical preference for either usually, but it is a difference.

Originally posted by nortonl
I think the one which affects all inputs in the service menu is ADC (ADP on NTSC machines ?). I think the Picture settings seem to be input specific and linked to the Advanced adjustments in the user menu.
OK guys I did a quick check this evening on inpts vs service menu. Under the "picture" option in the service menu, I got 3 completely different sets of settings for:

1) DVI at 720p. (DVI @ 1080i had same settings)
2) Component at 1080i
3) Component at 480i

they went like this:
For 1-2-3 (Above)
123-127-133 RG
129-115-124 GG
132-125-125 BG
126-120-124 RB
126-125-128 GB
126-116-121 BB

I was pretty sure they were different. And, I'm almost positive the auto cal parameters are separate, too. At least for the different inputs. Dunno about input AND signal liekk I saw above on component.

My DVD played wont' do 1080i out component, so I guess I'll be SOL on calibrating that input. No way to send it a test pattern without signal generator. Is there? HTPC?

Thanks,
Scott

Chris W.....
HDMI also includes the ability to transmit YCbCr. DVI just does RGB. If you are using HDMI-DVI connection, then you are limited to RGB output. No technical preference for either usually, but it is a difference.

Is up to the display to determine what type of signal is being transmitted via the HDMI cable and switch internally to the appropriate circuit? Can the H77 do that via it's DVI-I input?

Yes, H77 auto syncs on the correct signal type.

depending on the source you can choose betwene YCbCr or RGB output with HDMI.

Cool, thanks for all the info. I had a day trip today where I was stuck on a plane so was educating myself on DVI, HDMI, etc... Sounds like with an adaptor I'd be set.

As far as the screen goes, I'll probably go with the Firehawk because even though I can get the room super dark, there may be times when I'm watching football, etc... where I'd actually want the lights on in which case I think I'd be better off with the firehawk from what I'm reading here.

I'm meeting with a couple of my HT buddies for lunch tomorrow here in Dallas. The one guy just finished his room and went with the Sony HS-51 and Definitive Technology speakers w/ Denon receiver. Hopefully if I overcome my indecisiveness I'll post what all I'm going with this weekend :-) Now i gotta go read that new thread I missed today about the Sharp 12K vs. Optoma H77....

~Rich

hey does anyone knows if the H79 uses the same bulb as the H77? I really hope so.

Thinking of buying a spare bulb for the H77 since there is a new model coming out. Will it be hard to get the H77 bulb next time?

I have been out of this thread for quite a while mainly because I have been busy tweaking my SVS sub and watching my movies with the H77/greyhawk RS. The picture is quite stunning. I do see the "panning" artifects once a while but no big deal.

Originally posted by alantkh
hey does anyone knows if the H79 uses the same bulb as the H77? I really hope so.

Thinking of buying a spare bulb for the H77 since there is a new model coming out. Will it be hard to get the H77 bulb next time?

I have been out of this thread for quite a while mainly because I have been busy tweaking my SVS sub and watching my movies with the H77/greyhawk RS. The picture is quite stunning. I do see the "panning" artifects once a while but no big deal.

I am 99% sure it does, since the H77 can be (not sure if it will be offered) rebuild into a H79 by replacing the main bord with the DMD i didn't hear anything about a new bulb.

Daniel.

Also posted in dvd section:

Here is the story:
Denon 2815 (ranked 87 on secrets) using 480p over component on my Optoma H77 DLP PJ.
I'm kinda a novice w/ avia but here goes:
1. When I try to set the contrast on my display with the moving bars on the white screen I can only get them to appear when both the contrast AND brightness are nearly maxed out at the MINIUMUM levels.
2. However, when I try to set the black levels, the white levels get washed out.
3. This results in a picture that has both washed out highlights and poor shadow detail (too dark), its like the whole visible range has somehow narrowed.
4. On my sony dvd player I do not have a problem setting the levels (my display adjustments are near the default settings. I bought the denon because of Faroudja and lack of CUE, but so far the picture of my old sony has MUCH more "dynamic range".
What gives? Thanks.

Moving from Darkchip3 thread...
Originally posted by guitarman The blacks and the brightness being the key thing for me. I going to get a H79 in a few weeks so I can compare to see If it's worth the upgrade. H79's will hit the market in 1 month. Fast release because most of the machine is exactly like the H77 (new firmware/new HD3board that's it. Originally posted by scotthorton Hey Tom, Since it's only a board swap, any chance they'll do an upgrade for us early adopters? Now that would be something to make it worth sending my H77 on a 3000 mile trip for a tune up! Maybe we could get a Power Buy on same! They could tuneup and reuse our H77 boards elsewhere..Originally posted by guitarman I'll ask about that, it would probably be expensive, at least the msrp difference between the two machines. Would you want to pay the difference? Probably, depends on amount of course. I haven't seen the price differences yet so hard to say. It would probably be better than selling mine used then paying for a new one to upgrade. Nothing wrong with mine, so an upgrade/trade would be fine. Something to help cure upgradeitus :). Way less expensive than 3-chip plan.

I thought the px difference was going to be $1,000, which wouldn't be too bad.

Originally posted by guitarman I thought the px difference was going to be $1,000, which wouldn't be too bad. I agree.

Hey Tom: Did you get your colorfacts yet? I'd really like to see your service menu numbers for DVI when you get your's tweaked. Or anyone else's for that matter.

And along those lines, how will one calibrate the 1080i input via component? My Denon 3910 won't do 1080i over component so how will one send a test signal? I presume the only way is with the Sencore or Accupel signal generator. Tom, can you ask what signal generator Optoma uses for their Magenta autocal source? I would presume Sencore or Accupel, but could be something else.

Any of you ISF guys out there have some settings you derived using a signal generator on your H77 with colorfacts/sencore calibrations?

I need to round up some other Tennessee Members who want to share a colorfacts and signal generator. Chime in if you read this and we'll work something out.

Cheers,
Scott

Haven't hooked it up yet, maybe this weekend.

I think DVE is available on DVHS.

Originally posted by nortonl
I think DVE is available on DVHS. You mean for 100i signal generation? Hmmm. Just what I needed, another excuse to buy some more equipment <grin>.

DVE on VHS. Guess that might solve his navigation issues :)

Originally posted by guitarman I'll ask about that, it would probably be expensive, at least the msrp difference between the two machines. Would you want to pay the difference?
I'd be willing to pay for an upgrade. I always wondered why other mfgs did not offer this option, like Projection Design does for it's MKI, MKII, MKIII. Seems like the only change from the current H77 is the board and firmware, making for an easy retrofit to existing units.

Scott, you can indeed use the 1080i DVHS version of DVE to generate a 1080i signal via component. I have a copy not being used since I only use the DVI input.

I asked about changing the internals on the H77 and he's going to ask his boss about it. Price wise he said It won't be cheap due to not just the parts but the technical work that will have to be learned in getting it done. I'll have a price for it down the road and you can decide if it's worth it.

Got a little more info on the HD3 chip. The pivot point is a much thinner item which enables the mirrors to move much more quickly creating the higher contrast. Plus it get the mirrors closer together which makes the better fill. The lower loss of light behind and and around the pixels is also adding to the contrast.

Originally posted by guitarman
I asked about changing the internals on the H77 and he's going to ask his boss about it. Price wise he said It won't be cheap due to not just the parts but the technical work that will have to be learned in getting it done. I'll have a price for it down the road and you can decide if it's worth it.


from boss optoma europe a few weeks ago on this question :

----
Upgrade would be possible by changing main board. It is about 2 hours work,
but the board cost could be high as it includes the HD2 chipset.
We could do it at cost plus labour for you............no idea how much or
when or if at all.
-----

So it is possible i guess maybe we can make a poll and represent them with the results :)

Daniel.

Do any of you know if you can change the H77 input IRE black levels over component? Does anyone know if the default is "7.5" or "0" ?

The 0ire or 7.5ire output is dependant on the player. The H77 will then display black depending on what you calibrate it to. If you calibrate it to 7.5 ire, the 0ire output will have the H77 crush blacks.

I have tried PAL and NTSC inputs via component from a Skyworth player, and found the H77 only has one set-up for that input, so setting up for one ended up being wrong for the other and vice versa. I used Avia for NTSC and a Peter Finzel diak for PAL. THe only solution as far as I can see is if you have a player that has a setting for 0ire for NTSC. Sometimes 0ire is referd to as something else though, so have a look at the menu options (on the player).

Gary.

but seriously,

will the added contrast make a difference in normal room conditions (ie not black walls).

I personally cannot see any SDE at my viewwing distance1.5x screen width so will the extra fill help?

I have paided around US6k for the H77 and I have barely used it for 3 months and a new model is coming out :(

someone should do an objective shootout of a HD2 and HD3 under controlled situations.

Originally posted by alantkh
but seriously,

will the added contrast make a difference in normal room conditions (ie not black walls).

I personally cannot see any SDE at my viewwing distance1.5x screen width so will the extra fill help?

I have paided around US6k for the H77 and I have barely used it for 3 months and a new model is coming out :(

someone should do an objective shootout of a HD2 and HD3 under controlled situations.

Well it aint ship yet, also it will cost more. I would be shocked to see a trouble free H79 shipping to europe before jun/jul.

Daniel.

Ok, I hope I didnt screw up my H77 by messing where I don't belong!

I went to the Service menu, Then I did a ADC black and then white calibration. At first it was really messed up but then I calibrated the white with a Black avia window screen and the White level with a 100 IRE screen. The denon looks awesome now. However, I dont even know what I did.

What is the correct way to get the ADC white and black levels calibrated?
Those are the only changes I have made in the service menu. Please help and I'll promise not to mess around in the service menu again.

Ok, I hope I didnt screw up my H77 by messing where I don't belong!

I went to the Service menu, Then I did a ADC black and then white calibration. At first it was really messed up but then I calibrated the white with a Black avia window screen and the White level with a 100 IRE screen. The denon looks awesome now. However, I dont even know what I did.

What is the correct way to get the ADC white and black levels calibrated?
Those are the only changes I have made in the service menu. Please help and I'll promise not to mess around in the service menu again.

I fiddled with my first unit, too, because it had some color problems and was way off, figured I couldn't hurt it. I used AVIA and did the same as you and it did something, but I didn't know what, either. Didn't fix it though, but it was new (1 day old) and Optoma promptly exchanged it for the one I have now.

I was chicken to fiddle with the ADC on the one I have now. I believe Tom mentioned his opinion was black and white were ok but leave magenta alone because Magenta is off on Avia. Black and white are easy enough to generate as you describe, but I want to know what *is* acceptable to use for magenta (Accupel, Sencore, what?). Is DVE "right" since Avia isn't?

I also worried about the signal source format. Was your Denon set to send the black/IRE100 screen at widescreen when you ran the ADC? Does the Denon correctly regenerate black/white when it "stretches" the original 4x3 window from the DVD to widescr? I'm a natural worrywart as should be obvious by now :)

Cheers,
Scott

The very question I asked. Wing said the PAL version should be out way quicker because most of the hard work of figuring out things was done on the H77. I'd imagine they won't be sending pre pal models for Euro dealers to take a look at either.

Jay, first you should always write down all the preset numbers and it's massive. There's ADP, Picture, DLP and in the User area the Advanced adjustments. Plus you would need to make records for each signal.

You seem to be ok and the second way was the right way. But also you should be in a total black environment also.

It's allot of work but the auto-cals are to best match up to your electronics, like your Denon. As far as Magenta Wing said they have a special Magenta field at Taiwan's Engineering area where they first adjust each machine. It's not on Avia or DVE. You probably know Magenta is the color calibration and I know what it does if you don't have the correct field. Never use it. :)

FYI, I posted a decent spreadsheet either here or in the H77 Owners thread for recording all the settings. A search by my userid ought to turn it up pretty easily. If not let me know I'll repost later.
HTH,
Scott

Thanks guys.

To anyone with an iScan HD/H77 combo.......

Some time back in this thread one or two folks had sync problems which were resolved by not using "auto detect" on the iScan.
I was just wondering if anyone out there could let us know how they're getting on - (good or bad) with this combination. I ask because I'm pretty close to aquiring an H77 and plan (for now) to use my existing RGBHV cabling from the my iScan up to the projector, but I don't want to have to count to 15 (or more) before the signal syncs up! A comment on the improvement in PQ thro DVI would be appreciated also.

Thanks Guys

Could anyone please point me in the direction of the H77 Owners' forum?
Thanks, so sorry for being a little Off Topic!

Originally posted by guitarman
I asked about changing the internals on the H77 and he's going to ask his boss about it. Price wise he said It won't be cheap due to not just the parts but the technical work that will have to be learned in getting it done. I'll have a price for it down the road and you can decide if it's worth it.


So, do you believe this will be an option (even if it is expensive)? Keep us posted! SJ

Originally posted by Loftboy
To anyone with an iScan HD/H77 combo.......

Some time back in this thread one or two folks had sync problems which were resolved by not using "auto detect" on the iScan.
I was just wondering if anyone out there could let us know how they're getting on - (good or bad) with this combination. I ask because I'm pretty close to aquiring an H77 and plan (for now) to use my existing RGBHV cabling from the my iScan up to the projector, but I don't want to have to count to 15 (or more) before the signal syncs up! A comment on the improvement in PQ thro DVI would be appreciated also.

Thanks Guys

I use the H77 with an iSCAN and have never had problems. Sometimes when you switch inputs on the iSCAN (in AUTO mode), the H77 has to re-sync - but it always has worked. I will note that I am mostly using DVI (I only use BNC for my XBOX when playing 720p games) which acts a little strange in that the H77 seems to have two DVI syncs. One is for Digital RGB and the other is for DVI. When you push the DVI sync on the H77, it first seems to try Digital RGB and then DVI options. If you have the lock on the input, it will sometimes not be able to find one or the other. I fixed this by having my startup macro actually select BNC. It doesn't find it and then rolls over to trying DVI (both Digital RGB and DVI). Kind of strange... SJ

Originally posted by rimibar
Could anyone please point me in the direction of the H77 Owners' forum?
Thanks, so sorry for being a little Off Topic!

AVS isn't like the HTspot where they have area's by company (optoma). You'll find most of the info you need in the review threads. This one ain't too bad ;)

PS, where do you think the world got the service entry codes, etc :)
happy reading.

Originally posted by rimibar
Could anyone please point me in the direction of the H77 Owners' forum?
Thanks, so sorry for being a little Off Topic! There is no H77 forum per se (that I know of). Maybe you meant the owners thread I mentioned a few posts back? If so it is at:
threadid=451637 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451637)

Hi:
Could anyone point to me where I can get a throw calculation of the H77? or if anyone of you can tell me the min & max distance between the lens of the h77 and the screen of 130" Diagonal (or 105" wide) in 16:9 mode.
Thanks,
Frank

ProjectorCentral.com is always useful for this sort of information Here is the calculator for the H77 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=5006792)


Originally posted by kaka
Hi:
Could anyone point to me where I can get a throw calculation of the H77? or if anyone of you can tell me the min & max distance between the lens of the h77 and the screen of 130" Diagonal (or 105" wide) in 16:9 mode.
Thanks,
Frank

Originally posted by kaka
Hi:
Could anyone point to me where I can get a throw calculation of the H77? or if anyone of you can tell me the min & max distance between the lens of the h77 and the screen of 130" Diagonal (or 105" wide) in 16:9 mode.
Thanks,
Frank

Use the screen size and distance on the Optoma website.

H77 screen size and distance (http://www.optomahometheater.com/content/H77.asp)

is there a simple way to shift a 2.35:1 image down in a 16:9 frame using the H77 via DVI?

I know there is a vertical shift function but it works only with the component output.

Right it's only there for certain signals. On the new H31 there's a ton of aspect features plus vertical shift for all signals. There's a neat memory feature which will remember the spot you set the shift at. I hope they add these to the H79 and maybe a firmware could add them to the H77. Allot of companies neglect these items. Sharp has a Smart stretch which I used for 4.3 material. I still hate viewing 4.3 boxed in, I'll pass my 4.3 movies by all the time. sniff

Thanks for the clarification guys! :)

Those kind of features were in the HT1000, and were very useful. Currently the zoom function is too course, and would be better if it could be reduced to 1% or 2% increments.

I've now reverted back to using Zoomplayer as my player, and that has a lot of those useful features built in.

With the H79 coming out soon, I wonder if the H77 will now be forgoten though.

Gary.

"With the H77 coming out soon, I wonder if the H77 will now be forgotten though." Interesting point. Yes, it will be completely forgotten on this forum. Who talks about the Sharp 9000 anymore - hyped to the 9th degree only a couple short years ago. What's fascinating is that if the H77 has the great image everyone says it has then WHO CARES! Well, it seems the continuation of hype surrounding a particular product is everything - for some reason reading about the positive attributes of projector A or projector B keeps the interest alive and the sales booming, or at least keeps them selling. Projector C on the other hand may be even better than procector A and B, however, if noone is hyping it, few will buy and it dies a natural death by being replaced by another product. And of course if projector C only has a small profit margin then who's going to hype it?

I guess its all relative but personally I feel that alot of the "improvements" over the past year or so (with DLP) have been incremental, except of course, the improvement in pricing of the HD2+ projectors.

No doubt there are members of this forum kicking themselves for purchasing a HD2 pj for $7,000 or $8,000 eighteen months ago and now some HD2+ units will be selling for 1/2 or less new! Tough to upgrade when the resale value of your current pj has sunk by (only) 70%, if you're lucky. Of course, you may be able to find some unsophisicated sucker out there who will pay you 50% of what you paid. Problem is that the market for even $3,000 or $4,000 projectors is limited and those interested in spending this kind of money on a toy may be smart enough to check things out.

Call me cynical, but watching the marketing of a product on this forum is a sport onto itself. You've got the rules, the referees, the players and the fans (us). Everytime I watch the players take to the field I rub my hands with glee - let the games begin!

Cheers,

Grant

Actually Grant, I meant forgooten by the manufacturers, not by the forum, as that is a given with any projector as new products leave the old by the wayside.

My point was that It would be nice to see any new functions added to the new H79 also added to the H77, rather than it be forgotten by the manufacturers and ignored with any thought for future firmware fixes etc.

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Actually Grant, I meant forgooten by the manufacturers, not by the forum, as that is a given with any projector as new products leave the old by the wayside.

My point was that It would be nice to see any new functions added to the new H79 also added to the H77, rather than it be forgotten by the manufacturers and ignored with any thought for future firmware fixes etc.

Gary.

Good point, I'd like to see some aspect features added to the H77. If there's anything different happening with the H79 they should find an easy link to adding the same item to the H77.

Most of the zoom's in all Pj's are uniform, I'd like to see a zoom which keeps the center area natural and just expands the sides. That's for 4.3 but I'd like even more a 2.35 zoom that does a similar thing leaving the most amount of image with the least amount of distortion.

IMO we need discreet power codes more than anything, if Optoma hasnt taken the time to implement this, i would be shocked if they did anything else useful with the H77.

John

Hi Tom,

I know what you mean - the HT1000 has a similar feature for 4:3, but the H77 is limited (I guess that accounts for the price), so now I'm using the PC for the aspect functions etc.

I'm guessing, but on-board memory may be limited to keep the price down so we probably can't expect any major changes or additons unfortunately. The H79 will certainly be interesting to see as a comparison.

Have you tried Colorfacts yet? I'm curious to see how your CIE and greyscales turn out, and especilay your out of th box contrast ratio.

Gary.

Haven't used colorfacts with the H77, I did use it on a digital RPTV and the Optoma H31. I'll get around to it as I'm getting more familar with the CF program.

I'll remind Wing about the remote codes this week.

Originally posted by Loftboy
To anyone with an iScan HD/H77 combo.......

Some time back in this thread one or two folks had sync problems which were resolved by not using "auto detect" on the iScan.
I was just wondering if anyone out there could let us know how they're getting on - (good or bad) with this combination. I ask because I'm pretty close to aquiring an H77 and plan (for now) to use my existing RGBHV cabling from the my iScan up to the projector, but I don't want to have to count to 15 (or more) before the signal syncs up! A comment on the improvement in PQ thro DVI would be appreciated also.

Thanks Guys

I use a H77 and iScanHD with 5meters of dvi and rgbhv cables and it works fine. I did indeed turn auto select off (useless anyway since its on fixed dvi or component in). The time it takes to sync is a few seconds. I don't have any real problems i use it on 48hz (ntsc) and 50hz (pal).

Daniel.

Originally posted by guitarman I'll remind Wing about the remote codes this week. Tom: While you're at it, ask about the H79 (discrete codes). Hopefully they incorporated them there. And for what it's worth, if he can update the firmware, I can build the universal remote control hex and files for them/everyone so we can take advantage of what he's able to add in the firmware. Free labor. :)

I took some new shots this morning after my first attempt to tune up to 6500k with colorfacts. I used the One-eye directly on the screen and the DVD player is a Toshiba 5970 HDMI player which isn't as bad as some made out.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf5.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf6.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf7.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf8.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf9.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf10.jpg

Any fence sitters out there should jump on the new lower MSRP it's quite substantial and way too cheap for such a fine projector. See Jason's sticky at the top of the forum and I can only imagine the deal AVS will give you. Sheesh waaay too cheap.

I've got never ending upgradeitus. I'm practically giving my H77 away with about 45 hours on it. PM me if you are interested. Hope this message isn't against the rules :eek:

Scott, if you don't mind me asking, what are you upgrading to?

Ya, good question - the H79 isn't out yet!

3-Chip would be my guess ;)

I went through the decision process ad nauseum when I chose the H77. So I have a very good starting place. I have a 110" firehawk and mostly light controlled room.

Depending on how much wife pain I want, my preferences are:
Simm 500 3-chip, or H79. Simm 500 will not be a good wife plan :D, so realistically, for now, the H7x I still think is the best choice. If there was no H79 (I would probably sit still) then I might consider the Sim 300 but as I'd like the ilink if I did, the price differences don't justify it IMO. It's reputed to have good optics, but not as good blacks as the H79. And it's reputed to have more noise. All that and it's way more $$. I like my H77 just fine, enough to be reasonably comfortable to spend some to get a teeny improvement with the H79 although I always worry about being on the bleeding edge.

Cheers,
Scott

Forgot to say, that as a H79 is the preference, selling my H77 that I like *is* a gamble not knowing when the H79's will be here. I've heard Feb and I've heard Jul. Jul. would...suck.

That would suck! I plan on getting an H79 too - right before the last one disappears on close out thanks to the H80 ( or H81 or whatever )! I'm always on the trailing edge - it's less expensive there......and you know what bugs you have to deal with!

I wonder what a realistic guess is on the H100 (1080p) model? I'm guessing that we will see it in less than 18 months. Seems like the H79 is just a small step up from the H77. It is still 720p and single chip. Also wonder whether Optoma will step into the 3 chip market. SJ

Originally posted by scotthorton
Forgot to say, that as a H79 is the preference, selling my H77 that I like *is* a gamble not knowing when the H79's will be here. I've heard Feb and I've heard Jul. Jul. would...suck.

One of the Optoma reps posted on the board here somewhere and confirmed a February ship date.

Hi All:

I have posted a new thread for the following, but I repeat here to get a better chance of getting help.


I was about to pick up a H77 then the dealer told me that I should not consider it for my HT as I have a 1.3 gain 130" diagnoal screen. He instead recommended a Infocus Screen Play 7205. I like the H77 as I have seen it in action on a 100" screen and besides the 7205 is loader and has lower contrast.

I am very upset now as I had set my mind toward a H77 purchase. Can anyone of you H77 owners be kind enough to help me out by doing a quick experinemt on your H77. I think we can simulate a large screen by zooming out the picture. On a 16:9 aspect, a 113" wide screen will represent my screen size. My HT is totally light controlled. If you could do that, please let me know how the PQ is. I understand that by doing so it might create some ambient light from the portion of the image landed outside your screen and hence affect the overall perceived PQ but I am sure that will gives us a good idea.

Much Thanks,
Frank

Originally posted by SpecialK-MD
One of the Optoma reps posted on the board here somewhere and confirmed a February ship date. You sure that wasn't Tom? He's not a rep, per se, but does have some inside info.

You can expect the H79 pretty quick. A week and a half ago the Engineering mgr told me it would be 1 month. Faster because they're based on the same H77 chassiss, just new boards and firmware. I'll bet he's over there now testing the firmware, aspects etc.

Frank, I have zoomed out the picture to that size and it still looked bright and in low power. Craig and I ran that test becuase he wanted a larger screen. Not sure how bright once the bulb's half worn. But you could always use the bright lamp mode, you still get 2,000hrs at bright.

That is a mighty big screen though. I'm pleased with the 1.3 CV at around 106" x 45" ( for 2.35:1 ) but I doubt I'd go larger myself. And my H76 is a tad brighter than the H77. I'm still watching 1.85:1 on the 92" wide HCCV ( 106" diagonal ? ) but I'm using the lower bulb setting too.

Hmmm, Tom was told a week and a half ago that the H79 would be out in about a month. Sounds like (the standard) two weeks to me.

Originally posted by scotthorton
You sure that wasn't Tom? He's not a rep, per se, but does have some inside info.

Pretty sure. Check out http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4981592#post4981592

Guy's name is Ralph Merrem and he only has 1 post.

SpecialK: Thanks very much for hunting it up. Much appreciated. I missed it. I feel better now. H77's gone <frown>, time to choose....

Originally posted by SpecialK-MD
Pretty sure. Check out http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4981592#post4981592

Guy's name is Ralph Merrem and he only has 1 post.

I think the confusing timing relates to ntsc vs pal, i know Tom disagrees but the info i got from
optoma months ago was feb/mar for the release in ntsc but probably 3 months delay will be added for testing/beta/whatever/tuning before they sign off on it in europe for the pal version. Making it may at the earlest. When i heard about the H79 i felt tricked since he told me we don't plan ANY PROJECTOR under the name H79. But we now know the H31 will not be called H31 in europe but will be called H30a so it seems to make sense now that he sidestepped me since there will indeed not be a H79 from themescene but it will be called the ThemeScene H77a.

So far all the info he gave me was valid even if as you can see he is kinda playing with me at times :(

Greetings,

Daniel.

Originally posted by danielo


So far all the info he gave me was valid even if as you can see he is kinda playing with me at times :(



Indeed. Him not being totaly upfront and misleading you like that doesn't instill a great deal of trust does it? :(

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Indeed. Him not being totaly upfront and misleading you like that doesn't instill a great deal of trust does it? :(

Gary.

Well i see this as smart pr reply myself, what is nice is that all his info seems to be correct but he lets you draw your own conclusions. The info he gave me and at that point is more then what most brands would even give you. I personally see this is a game if you want correct answers you better ask direct questions but well asking them too direct he will refuse to reply :).

Daniel.

The goods news, I said earlier. The PAL version will come much sooner this time since the formula was figured out on the H77.

I hope they found some wizbang tricks to make it even better than H77 (darkchip aside). Then again, not so much they hose it :D. Mostly I hope they took our suggestions on discrete codes, etc.

Originally posted by guitarman
The goods news, I said earlier. The PAL version will come much sooner this time since the formula was figured out on the H77.

Let the proof be in the shipping Tom, It would be nice to see it ship at the same time as the ntsc model and no problems this time. Its not that i am hoping for a late shipping date just that the info i got assumed a 3 months delay between the ntsc and pal.

Daniel.

I just hope the H79 comes in Feb as advertised. You would think if it was coming that soon that dealers would be hearing something soon. The encouraging thing is the new pricing on the H77 leads one to believe that they are trying to clear the old inventory to make room for the new units.

I'm not so sure they are trying to clear out old inventory. I have a new brochure from CES, it lists both the H79 and H77. It appears to me they are going to have both of them as current projectors. I don't think the H77 is going away yet, the H79 will be an upgrade from it.

Phil

Tom,

The latest H77 has C17 firmware which has CWI adjustments for both NTSC and PAL. Can you find out if there anything else new in this version?

Gary.

The first firmware here was just for letterbox support. All later firmwares were for making the PAL signal better there weren't any extras.

On the new H31 Optoma came up with some great aspect features which I'd like to see added to the H77 or the H79.

1. Digital Shift with a memory so you with electric screens could memorize an up shift for 2.35 movies doing away with the bars above and below by shifting up and raising your screen.

2. Edge Mask, a quick crop feature for TV channels with garbage at the edge.

3. Aspects for 16.9 to zoom digitally to eliminate black bars.

4. Aspects for 4.3 to expand digitally 4.3 OTA or SD. It makes for small bars on the sides keeping the image natural.

I guessing Wing was the creator of these, he's kind of Optoma's Aspect expert. I'll ask him when he's back from Taiwan, hopefully this week. Plus discrete menu codes to be added to their website.

Originally posted by Phil_Johnson
I'm not so sure they are trying to clear out old inventory. I have a new brochure from CES, it lists both the H79 and H77. It appears to me they are going to have both of them as current projectors. I don't think the H77 is going away yet, the H79 will be an upgrade from it.

Phil
Good point, at the price I'm seeing the H77 lately is like a joke, I mean I thought I got a deal when I bought the HT1000 for this price. Yeah I can see them having a market for both machines.

I'm watching the H77 right and and still drooling. It still amazes me anyone ever found anything to complain about with this projector. Except for the 10 or so guys that got dealer pal units ahead of time.

Hey guitarman,

Any chance a fellow HT enthusiast, lead guitarist, bay area guy could get a look at the H77? Finding a place to see it in the Bay area is next to impossible. Sorry to use this thread, but there seems no other way to contact you (since your PM box is full). Send me an email or PM if you would be OK with that.
Cheers
-Dave

After watching my H77 for a few hundred hours now, I do notice quite a bit of "blurring" during fast action shots including panning. This seems more noticeable on my Voom 720p feed than my 480p denon. I know this was discussed by some a while ago and that not all of us notice it, well I do notice it now, Is there any firmware yet to address this issue? Thanks.

Here is some evidence that the H79 looks to actually be right around the corner. The PDF for the H77 has been updated to show the specs of the H79 also. Looks like the throw distance is the same. Everything looks similar except the lumen output is 1000 lumens instead of 900 and contrast increased to 4000.

http://www.optomahometheater.com/documents/HT.pdf

Originally posted by tubby
After watching my H77 for a few hundred hours now, I do notice quite a bit of "blurring" during fast action shots including panning. This seems more noticeable on my Voom 720p feed than my 480p denon. I know this was discussed by some a while ago and that not all of us notice it, well I do notice it now, Is there any firmware yet to address this issue? Thanks.

Based on nothing more than a computer science background and years of playing with computer stuff, I fear that the blurring is caused by insufficient processing power on whatever board is doing the image manipulation that controls the mirrors. Thus, I suspect that it will take more than firmware to fix this problem. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think so.

Ira

I am sending my unit back to OPtoma to address the panning problem and they said the firmware update from C08 to C16 would dramatically reduce the blurring. I am hopeful, but I swear, the blurring seems to be getting worse. Wonder why if there is a C17 out there it would not be updated to that edition. I will call and find out.

Dallas

Originally posted by iblumberg
Based on nothing more than a computer science background and years of playing with computer stuff, I fear that the blurring is caused by insufficient processing power on whatever board is doing the image manipulation that controls the mirrors. Thus, I suspect that it will take more than firmware to fix this problem. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think so.

Ira
Ira:

If you are right I wonder where the breakdown is:
a) DMD limitation
b) Driver chip limitation (i..e pixelworks?)
c) Optoma circuit limitation.

That is, think it's a Optoma thing, a image-processor/scaler thing, or a DLP thing?

Cheers,
Scott

Tom:

BTW, As of today, dealers are still **NOT** able to get Optoma to let them do a FW update. Contrary to what you thought in an earlier post.

If it was Wing who thinks they can, please get him to tell the others at Optoma. I feel comfortable with some other (non-Optoma) choices now that I'm in the market again, H79 looking good. But as long as new FW's are coming out at their rate, they need to let us (or at least a dealer do them) to keep customers.

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by hdk
I am sending my unit back to OPtoma to address the panning problem and they said the firmware update from C08 to C16 would dramatically reduce the blurring. I am hopeful, but I swear, the blurring seems to be getting worse. Wonder why if there is a C17 out there it would not be updated to that edition. I will call and find out.

Dallas

Ya, It seems to be getting worse here also, however I think it is more likely that I notice it more now that I know it exists. Let me know what you find out with the firmware situation. I wonder If I should call them just to make my inqury "official".

With 8 segments to the color wheel, there is less time for the DMD to operate for each colour, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's half the problem.

Gary

Originally posted by hdk
I am sending my unit back to OPtoma to address the panning problem and they said the firmware update from C08 to C16 would dramatically reduce the blurring.
Dallas

I was one of the very first people to get the C16 FW and I can tell you from first hand experience it does NOTHING as far as clearing up the panning issues with the H77.

As mentioned earlier, there is this flaw with almost all DLPs, but it is substantially more noticeable with the H77. Probably due to the color wheel speed and 8 segments as mentioned previously.

I see it slightly with my new Sim2 HT300E, but it is dramatically better than my previous H77 was.

The new H79 sounds interesting. I'd love to see one when it comes out.

Can we change de wheel speed to 4X on the Optoma like the Mitsubishi D2010? That should reduce the stress on the DMD chips moving to fast and help the panning issue. Wright? It would increase potentiel rainbow but i'm not succeptible to does anyway.

Does Mitsubishi allows there customer to upgrade there own firmware?

I just order an Optoma H77 and your talked of panning issue make me nervous.:(

In firmware 17, there is a separate Color Wheel Index (CWI) setting for PAL and NTSC, and that setting has been shown to reduce posterisation a great deal and in most cases eliminate it. Having a separate setting for each seems to suggest that one setting for PAL may not be the best setting for NTSC and vice versa.

If it was possible to reduce the color wheel speed and allow more time for DMD operation, that could well improve panning and reduce the related artifacts. I'm not sure if the physically smaller segments are still an issue with CW speed though.

So far I've only seen a couple of quick momentary glimpses of what could be panning artifacts, and that was during Collateral, but that was just as likely to be an artifact of the Hi Def camera having problems coping with low light scenes. You could also quite often see what look like camera lens aberrations on out of focus parts of the image such as the cab when the focus was on the interior, so there were obvious problems in using the video footage compared to normal film and the cameras they use with it.

Gary.

I talked to Wing today and told him I wouldn't bother him for a few weeks. So Scott I'm not sure if they changed the firmware policy. Maybe so due to OEM'ed machines.

He said I could get a look at the H79 and he Should have the first bunch at the end of the month, about 40. I hope I'm in line for one. He did say the mirrors on the new chip move much faster and it's easier to time it with the 8 segment colorwheel, for PAL machines. So again I'd expect the PAL machines to be out soon.

Thanks for the update Tom, much appreciated. I expect I speak for all of us in that regard. Cheers, Scott

Scott you got no projector? But you do have the calibration system. Expensive hobby I guess you figure another 2grand for the lastest and greatest is worth the down time.
I'll let u know the minute the first 40 arrive, hopefully sooner than stated. Is it next month yet? :)

Originally posted by guitarman
Scott you got no projector? But you do have the calibration system. Expensive hobby I guess you figure another 2grand for the lastest and greatest is worth the down time.
I'll let u know the minute the first 40 arrive, hopefully sooner than stated. Is it next month yet? :) Yes, I have the insturment, came today. But nothing to play with it on :(. The H77 was my 1st PJ, and I liked it's picture fine. But I like the sound of the DC3 enhancements so yes, I'm forking over the $$ for an upgrade. I believe these 2 things together add up to some temporary insanity. I *must* get off this forum after I get a DC3 so I won't continue the cycle :) and keep my sanity :). Worst is the "no projector to play now" part. Maybe I can put up some walls now. I think it's like #2 in the build your home theater tips: "Don't buy the PJ until the room is done." I didn't listen, should have :o But what the hell, I'm having some fun anyway.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
In firmware 17, there is a separate Color Wheel Index (CWI) setting for PAL and NTSC, and that setting has been shown to reduce posterisation a great deal and in most cases eliminate it. Having a separate setting for each seems to suggest that one setting for PAL may not be the best setting for NTSC and vice versa.

If it was possible to reduce the color wheel speed and allow more time for DMD operation, that could well improve panning and reduce the related artifacts. I'm not sure if the physically smaller segments are still an issue with CW speed though.

So far I've only seen a couple of quick momentary glimpses of what could be panning artifacts, and that was during Collateral, but that was just as likely to be an artifact of the Hi Def camera having problems coping with low light scenes. You could also quite often see what look like camera lens aberrations on out of focus parts of the image such as the cab when the focus was on the interior, so there were obvious problems in using the video footage compared to normal film and the cameras they use with it.

Gary.

Is posterisation the same thing as the blurring or is it more of the banding? Is there sort of a 'reference' scene which shows it?

It would be great to figure out a scene in which to calibrate the CWI in case there isnt a 'best' setting for every NTSC H77...


John

Nevermind jsut googled it and it is the banding. My question on the calibration scene stands tho! :)

Looks like no fix for the blurring eh? :(

John

For the color banding/posterisation, chapter 15 of U571 has a bright light in it and you will see clear seperations instead of a smooth graduation as the color fades from white to black. Do a search and you should find some screen captures for it.

The panning artefact/bluring is different, and is difficult to capture, judging by the pics I've seen on here anyway.

Gary.

Received my H77 today and just played around with it for about two hours with my Onkyo SP1000 and HTPC. Tried 720p with both and also tried 480p with the Onkyo because its 720p scaling is a trainwreck.

The H77 definitely has issues with pans. Same lack of bit depth I've seen on older DLPs. I think 8 segments are just too much for the HD2+ processing to handle.

It's not as bad as what I saw on the Sharp 10K (HD2), but noticeably worse than what I saw on the 12K (HD2+ with 7 segments, and very good with pans).

There are several key scenes I use to test pans, including the beginning of FOTR when the camera pans across the dwarves as they receive their rings, and the first boot camp scene in Starship Troopers when the sergeant walks in front of the squad and the camera follows him, panning across the squad members. Both scenes readily showcase the artifact. It also pops up here and there over moving objects. I noticed it many times as I watched both films.

Build quality is also less than I hoped. Adjusting the focus sometimes causes the lens to shift.

I have two more hours of use until I'm beyond the point of no return (I get a full refund if I send it back by next Thursday with less than 4 hours on the bulb). Not sure what I'm going to do yet. The panning isn't awful, but it's not as good as I've seen elsewhere.

The Sim2 30H was the other model I was considering. More money, but it might be worth it. Not able to see it in person though, and now that I've seen the H77, I wish I would've been able to see it in person first. The panning problem was obvious with only 30 seconds of viewing (it's the first thing I tested).

I'm also seeing some minor false contouring, but nothing worse than I've seen on any other digital displays. They all have contouring to some extent. The H77 is actually pretty good in this regard.

More comments to follow, at least as much as I can muster in two more hours of testing.

Thirdkind
I'm not sure what you mean about the sp1000's 720p scaling being a "train wreck"...but I do have the h77 on my shortlist for a pj upgrade and look forward to your findings in the last couple hours before decision time.

Earz,

The SP1000's upscaling (not deinterlacing) is quite inferior to the iScan HD and HTPC I'm accustomed to. Very jagged edges on diagonal lines. Just not very clean scaling at all. Even the H77's internal scaler does a better job.

Tonight I'm going to toss up a few test patterns and use Progressive Labs just to see how it looks calibrated.

"beginning of FOTR when the camera pans across the dwarves as they receive their rings"

Try the scene on another display.

Thanks for the test, I took a look just a minute ago on two different displays, the dwarfs are blurry. Didn't take a look at the Starship Troopers.

Try the Seleco 300e, I hear it's great for pans.

Tom, are you saying you looked at it on 2 Optoma, or 2 other devices(CRT,LCD) and it looks fuzzy?

I have a question for the Optoma gang. Is there a way to modify the default fan speeds on the H76? I live in Colorado and there often are problems with fans cycling into leaf blower mode to cool the bulb while using economy modes.

The air is thinner here and the slow fan speeds don't move enough to cool the bulb sufficiently. Some model's service menus allow you to bump the speeds slightly to keep the projector from going into "help" mode.

Thanks,
Ken

This isn't blurriness Tom, it's a lack of processing power causing reduced bit depth and blocky, pixelated artifacts during pans and fast movement.

Another place I saw it quite readily: Saruman is spinning Gandalf around on the floor inside his tower. Gandalf breaks up into a pixelated mess.

As I said, it's better than the 10K, but noticeably worse than the 12K. This is not an issue with blurring in the source. It's a projector problem. Too many color wheel sections and not enough time to flip the mirrors on the DMD. It's likely the H79 will suffer less from this issue (or not at all) thanks to the faster mirrors on the updated HD2+ with DarkChip3.

I've watched these same scenes recently on a Panasonic plasma. Definitely motion blur, but no artifacts like I see on the H77.

It's not terrible, but it's definitely there. Glad you don't notice it though.

I would happily purchase a 300E, but it's beyond my budget.

It looked blurry ona tube TV. Another one is the motor cycle guy in U571 when they first go to the Sub. It's tricky finding a scene that looks blurry on a DLP yet looks super clean on a tube tv.

I know what you mean though the scenes are messed up and can look bad to different degrees per display.

Right, glad I'm not too bothered by this or I'd be losing allot of $ in change overs. Heaven forbid I might even try an LCD. ;)

I wonder if this panning blur problem is one reason some people at the Western Canada Projector Shootout said ( to some people here's surprise ) that the H76 looked better to them than the H77?? I finally got the correct 2.35:1 CV screen up and running last night with the H76, iScan HD and the Prismasonic H1000 lens. It looks pretty darned good!!

Oh ya - if there's any blurring on pans with my set up it's because it's so big and fills so much of your field of vision!

I tried it on the RD50 which is an H76 inside a RPTV, same degree of blurry. What did you go with a 123" diag screen? I forget

115" 2.35:1 - it is plenty big at about 13' away. I wouldn't want anything bigger really ( and couldn't get anything bigger in the room ).

Tom - when you get that new H79 - bring it over for a direct comparison, will ya? That would be interesting ( and potentially expensive for me : )

Sure will, what are you using for DVD?

I'm now using an SDI modded RP56 - iScan HD and then either DVI or component ( I have both hooked up to both the H76 and the HT1000 ). OR - use my Bravo D1 via DVI!!

Originally posted by Craig Peer
I wonder if this panning blur problem is one reason some people at the Western Canada Projector Shootout said ( to some people here's surprise ) that the H76 looked better to them than the H77?? I finally got the correct 2.35:1 CV screen up and running last night with the H76, iScan HD and the Prismasonic H1000 lens. It looks pretty darned good!!

Oh ya - if there's any blurring on pans with my set up it's because it's so big and fills so much of your field of vision!

I think we need to get away from using the term "blurring" to describe this issue. This is not blurring.

If it's in the source, any display will have motion blurring. That's the penalty for having 24fps film material.

This issue is a distinctive artifact inherent to certain DLPs due to an inability to move the mirrors fast enough.

It's not motion blur. That's a separate issue entirely and not something to be blamed on the H77.

I don't mean to bring the thread down, but prospective buyers should be made aware that the H77 does have an issue with motion that isn't related to the source. User tolerance of this artifact varies, and I suggest anyone considering the H77 try to see one first. Even viewing an older DLP like the Sharp 10K will give you an idea of what it looks like.

Yes but don't just about all the DLP do this? The benq, Sharp, probably others. That's why I recommended the Seleco because Dave was sensitive to this and says the Seleco is great for pannings.

Berore you dump it try changing the CWI setting, maybe a couple of numbers back.

Originally posted by chengka
Tom, are you saying you looked at it on 2 Optoma, or 2 other devices(CRT,LCD) and it looks fuzzy?

I have a question for the Optoma gang. Is there a way to modify the default fan speeds on the H76? I live in Colorado and there often are problems with fans cycling into leaf blower mode to cool the bulb while using economy modes.

The air is thinner here and the slow fan speeds don't move enough to cool the bulb sufficiently. Some model's service menus allow you to bump the speeds slightly to keep the projector from going into "help" mode.

Thanks,
Ken

I don't remember seeing any way to keep the fan high. The H31 does has a altitude mode which is just what you need. Maybe they'll have it on the H79.

Re the panning I just saw the blurring effect on the Tube TV but I did see a tear on the DLP RPTV, a tear on the dwarfs nose, sounds funny, sri

I didn't see that on the H77 though for that scene. Ah we had a good test scene earlier. It's the scene in FOTR where they're walking in the cave with Gandalf's light. This showed a contour, like wave lines. But I wouldn't sell the projector because of this probably becuase I don't notice and dwell on this kind of stuff.

Infact it's too bad to hear about different little scene defects becuase now each time the movie is viewed you're compelled to be thinking about it as the scene aproaches. lol
Now look what you did. :)

I got the motorcycle guy, the cave guy, now the dwarf. Just making fun, carry on. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
Yes but don't just about all the DLP do this? The benq, Sharp, probably others. That's why I recommended the Seleco because Dave was sensitive to this and says the Seleco is great for pannings.

Not really. The 12K is excellent with motion and I never saw this artifact on it. It's very noticeable on the 10K though and is one of the reasons I got rid of it.

I don't normally fixate on image artifacts. I'm rainbow sensitive and I'm still not really bothered by them. I just find this motion artifact particularly annoying. It jumps out at me when I'm not looking for it. For other people, it's no big deal.

I might try messing with the CWI setting, but I don't know if it has any bearing on this particular problem.

Just for the record, pans don't appear to look any different on my H76 than they do on my HT1000, and I don't recall any difference watching Toms H77 with my HT1000 there being A / B'd.

Originally posted by thirdkind
I think we need to get away from using the term "blurring" to describe this issue. This is not blurring.

If it's in the source, any display will have motion blurring. That's the penalty for having 24fps film material.

This issue is a distinctive artifact inherent to certain DLPs due to an inability to move the mirrors fast enough.

It's not motion blur. That's a separate issue entirely and not something to be blamed on the H77.

I don't mean to bring the thread down, but prospective buyers should be made aware that the H77 does have an issue with motion that isn't related to the source. User tolerance of this artifact varies, and I suggest anyone considering the H77 try to see one first. Even viewing an older DLP like the Sharp 10K will give you an idea of what it looks like.

I think the best way to solve that problem would be to reduce the speed of the color wheel to 4X like it's done on the Mutsubishi equivalent D2010. That would give more time to flip the mirrors. If Optoma and mitsubishi would let their customers update their own machine's firmware, we could try the mitsubishi firmware on the Optoma machine. :D

Bruno

The Mit has some different electronics per them at CEDIA. At least it has their proprietary scaler. I'd be chicken to try the Mit firmware, even if I could. But we can't so the point is moot! :) Cheers, Scott

Originally posted by bgosselin
I think the best way to solve that problem would be to reduce the speed of the color wheel to 4X like it's done on the Mutsubishi equivalent D2010. That would give more time to flip the mirrors. If Optoma and mitsubishi would let their customers update their own machine's firmware, we could try the mitsubishi firmware on the Optoma machine. :D

Bruno

One way to simulate this is by reducing the 'speed' by using your scaler (i know several of you have the iscan) from 60hz to 48hz since the time will then be the same as on a 4x system (4x60=240hz, 5*48=240hz).

I could do the reverse and output some test pal signal on 5*72hz to see if it gets worse. Also i keep hearing the dc3 is the first with dual speed mirrors are we all _really_ sure about this since Bob from infocus posted that the speedup was done on dc2 too.

Daniel.

Something about the new pivot posts on the DC3 that makes them faster. For sure Wing said Optoma will be able to time them better for contouring and PAL signals.

I think to momitsu v880 can output a signal at 48hz. Can you try that Tom and get back to us?

Bruno

Originally posted by guitarman
Something about the new pivot posts on the DC3 that makes them faster. For sure Wing said Optoma will be able to time them better for contouring and PAL signals.

Again you make the claim that the mirrors run faster on a dc3, as far as i understand they don't. Im more than happy to go with the flow but would like to see if they really are faster so it really can solve something this way.

The historical hierarchy of 720p DMDs is then:
HD1 (10°, DarkChip, DDR)
HD2 (12°, DarkChip, LVDS)
HD2+ (12°, DarkChip2, LVDS)
HD2+ DC3 (12°, DarkChip3, LVDS)

The speed is the LVDS part as far as i understand and was already in use with HD2+, With so many TI watchers how hard can it be to find this out.

Daniel.

Originally posted by guitarman
Yes but don't just about all the DLP do this? The benq, Sharp, probably others. That's why I recommended the Seleco because Dave was sensitive to this and says the Seleco is great for pannings.

Berore you dump it try changing the CWI setting, maybe a couple of numbers back.

Tom,

I don't remember saying it was great, but I did say it was much improved over the H77. It is still there slightly with the 300E, just not hardly as noticeable.

Originally posted by bgosselin
...If Optoma and mitsubishi would let their customers update their own machine's firmware, we could try the mitsubishi firmware on the Optoma machine. :D

Bruno

Hey, I can do that:)!!! I still have all the programs to do the FW upgrades on the H77:D

Too bad I don't have an H77 anymore:rolleyes:

Guys,

I tried using 48Hz for the panning issue, it doesn't help. most of the problems I saw were with HD anyway, and that's at 60z.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Guys,

I tried using 48Hz for the panning issue, it doesn't help. most of the problems I saw were with HD anyway, and that's at 60z.

Yeah sorry i remember this but it was so many replies ago :) , Anyway if for some reason its 'solved' on the H79 it will be nice to find out why the new idea is it will be better because of mirror speed just seems a silly guess since no one sofar even showed they run on a different speed resulting in easer timing. I also hope the H79 is _alot_ better in many areas since well i won't upgrade for 500:1 extra cr alone.

But you do agree that putting it in 48hz clearly slows the colorwheel down (you can hear it) and forced it in '4x' mode ?

Greetings,

Daniel.

PS: who is still happy with his H77 but would like to know a little more about things instead of guessing.

Regarding the H77 panning artifacts:-
My Mits HC2000 has very similar panning problems to the ones described.
Even color wheel speed of x4 and/or changing the CWI has little or no effect on this problem as far as I can see.
Luckily these artifacts don't bother me too much.

On another thread "Peter" gave a link to a TI tech presentation (that has since been removed by the moderators), but in that proprietary doc, it said that the DC3 was a "drop in replacement for the HD2+DC2 chip with literally no changes required by the customer" (Optoma, etc.).

That said, it is my expectation that the H79 is just that. An H77 with a changed chip and the latest (H77) firmware. Nothing significantly more :(. But as danielo mentioned, we are all just guessing really. Time will tell after the second person gets one (presuming Toms first :)).

Originally posted by scotthorton
On another thread "Peter" gave a link to a TI tech presentation (that has since been removed by the moderators), but in that proprietary doc, it said that the DC3 was a "drop in replacement for the HD2+DC2 chip with literally no changes required by the customer" (Optoma, etc.).

That said, it is my expectation that the H79 is just that. An H77 with a changed chip and the latest (H77) firmware. Nothing significantly more :(. But as danielo mentioned, we are all just guessing really. Time will tell after the second person gets one (presuming Toms first :)).

Maybe we should start a group to buy the new chip directly from TI. Than change the DMD ourselves and end up with H79 instead. :D Will sure be cheap if we could find....999 more people;) :p

Originally posted by bgosselin
Maybe we should start a group to buy the new chip directly from TI. Than change the DMD ourselves and end up with H79 instead. :D Will sure be cheap if we could find....999 more people;) :p Actually already thought of that. BUt I'm sure those puppies are wave soldered SMD's. Would be a bugger to get right even with surgeon hands and a very nice soldering iron. Oh well... tick tock waiting on Optoma...Maybe they are hand soldering theirs ;)

Optoma's Engineering Mgr was very excited about the new chips capabilities and stating the new pivot being shorter and plus better black on the back or the mirror, less screen door and the mirrors being able to move much quicker. I don't think he made these up. Probably just relaying what he learned from Ti. The other week when he wasn't around he was in Texas.

He said there's other things they did to the H79 design that if people were allowed to do a board swap they wouldn't get the full benefits from what they did to increase the contrast. Whatever that is :)

The board swap idea won't fly I figure because the price would have to reflect the new street price vs the new product price. Other wise you'd have savvy users buying a cheap H77 and just adding the board to save a chunk of dollars.
You see the problem.

Originally posted by scotthorton
On another thread "Peter" gave a link to a TI tech presentation (that has since been removed by the moderators), but in that proprietary doc, it said that the DC3 was a "drop in replacement for the HD2+DC2 chip with literally no changes required by the customer" (Optoma, etc.).

That said, it is my expectation that the H79 is just that. An H77 with a changed chip and the latest (H77) firmware. Nothing significantly more :(. But as danielo mentioned, we are all just guessing really. Time will tell after the second person gets one (presuming Toms first :)).

Well that is part of the problem, fastest way (and cheapest) is to replace the whole main board, The job from start to finish (including testing i guess) is 2 hours work. This info comes from optoma itself, At the time i asked (22 Nov 2004) i was told it was possible to 'upgrade' from a techinical point but they didn't plan to setup a program. Maybe if we all ask and the price is right that will change but i for one will not upgrade unless there are more things than going from 3500:1 to 4000:1. That was a while ago so maybe as Tom hinted they also changed things in the optics. Personally i doubt it since the step forward seems too little for that and the added cr's seems to fully relate to the better dmd.

Daniel.

However here is an upgrade plan that AVS offers. It is called the AVS Classifieds sponsored by VideoGon! Just beware of the unauthorized dealers selling new for less than what you want to sell used. Some dealers will post hundreds of ads just to make sure yours is never seen, even though they don't actually inventory anything.

"Some dealers will post hundreds of ads just to make sure yours is never seen, even though they don't actually inventory anything."

One of my pet peaves. I complained to Videogon about that recently saying this is rude behavior. The dealer entering a dozen or more of the basic same add to push other dealers out of the way and taking poor individuals along for the ride. :(

You'd have to be a real loser to sit on the computer typing away thinking this is good for me. Losers!

Originally posted by guitarman
"Some dealers will post hundreds of ads just to make sure yours is never seen, even though they don't actually inventory anything."


Amen! I don't even go to Videogon anymore because of that! I know this should be a new/different thread but I couldn't stop myself from chiming in - I really wish AVS or somebody would just go back to offering individuals a means to sell without the dealers elbowing in. I guess videogon could do a better job separating dealer ads from "personal" ads and maybe that could work.

It's always bugged me about Audogon but Videogon is much worse - I call it very low "signal" and lots of "noise"

I have a whole bunch of audiophile cables I pulled from my old HT before I sold the house - and I replaced it with RadShack stuff intending to recoup the difference on VideoGon. But everything I read keeps me shying away. And I have no idea what I will do when I need to sell a dealer demo and there are no ready local buyers. Which BTW is also the other technique these guys use for their unauthorized sale - sort of the white van speaker deal on the internet. If they really had an unopened box that the customers wife did not want - the manufacturer/distributor would do a return credit - always somebody else that wants the box! Why go to the hassle of posting the deal to VideoGon?

Sorry for the VideoGon rant - I seem to have touched a nerve here. Off thread I know.

Maybe the AVS powers that be will read this and figure out a better for profit way of bringing our classifieds back. I think the AVS community can police itself of this sort of thing if VideoGon cannot!

Here here,

Tom,

Have you made some measurement with your colorfact kit now?

Bruno

I tuned the grayscale for a couple of signals, DVI progressvie and component interlaced. I'll post up the numbers later but I don't think they'll work for other machines but you could try them.

Just check out the current sale on Optoma H77's at one of AVS's advertisers - Projector People - what a scream'n deal!!

Im considering a 123" (diag) to 133" screen and wanted to know if the H-77 is bright enough for that size also considering it will get dimmer later. Thanks

I watched a dvd on my 106" x 42.5" 2.35:1 screen in Eco mode without using an anamorphic lens the other night and it was plenty bright. I don't think I'd go more than 123" diagonal on a 1.85:1 screen - that would work well, and with the current free bulb deal - you can replace it early if you think it's getting too dim, eh?!!!! Just move your seats closer if that isn't big enough...........

Thanks for the input Craig, free bulb! thats a great deal for the price it's going for. Also if you compare with the 7205, which would you choose and why? I have seen a demo of the 7205 and in one scene did notice the RBE so im wondering with the 8th wheel would the RBE still be noticeable?

Having seen ( and heard - or not in the case of the H77 ) both I prefer the Optoma.

Yes, Projector People (PP) is giving a good deal. BUT, I believe Optoma may regret it. What I got from three reliable sources (albeit 3rd hand) was that PP made a deal directly with Optoma, circumventing the distributors. The deal was they buy Optoma's pile of leftover H77's . In return for a whopping deal they would handle the warranty. That's right, no warranty from Optoma directly on those deals, warranty through PP. Their "added warranty" supports that I'd say.

Before continuing I should say that I am not a dealer, I am a normal guy who is generally an agressive shopper. Including internet sales which if done carefully can be just fine with the right companies. AVS might be a good example. I don't normally side with the MSRP folks, and don't here either, I do agree and understand everyone needs to make a living, they just don't need to make the whole thing off me :). BUT...

While all this may be good for the guy looking at the H77 today, for the rest of us interested in Optoma products, we will feel the brunt I think. You see by Optoma making this deal with PP, what they did is take a great big dump on any distributor who has any H77's in stock. They had already dropped the price which cut into the dist. profit margin (already small). Then the PP deal made it so even a dealer can't _buy_ a H77 at the price PP is _selling_ them for! So the distributor gets stuck with their H77, stocking dealers, too.

For those who bought the H77 themselves, and were lucky enough to accidentally sell right before the bottom fell out were lucky indeed. The rest of the folks saw their PJ value depreciate an instant 50% or more. That's assuming anyone would by a used one for $3000 while the PP deal is there.

What this means for us considering the H79 is this: The H77 had a retail lifespan of what, 6-9 months?? Pretty short. Then Optoma dumps it on the market at a price no dealer can compete with. After a fresh xxxxing by Optoma, how many of the numbered big distributors will want to take a chance and stock the H79? Diddlysquat. That is, in a quantity that will give decent pricing on a line that due to internet sales (a good thing IMO) already has razor thin margins. That may make it tough for the dealers to get H79's at the similar pricing we saw (originally) for the H77 which was reasonable. And if they go up in price, they will move slower, and the distributors will want them even less.

For once I didn't like seeing the deal like PP did. 'Cause I wanted a H79 cheap, too. Unless Optoma lowers the MSRP which isn't expected, I bet the distribution channels are going to think real hard before buying any at quantity to sell. Hopefully Optoma will give them some compensation for their last trick. Otherwise they may need to make PP their sole distribution channel.

Cheers,
Scott

I'd like an H79 cheap too. And you'll get one. In about 9 months.

I see what you're saying Scott. Optoma dealers have got to be leery, but what's a manufacturer to do to empty the shelves for the next product? B&M dealers have bemoaned this sort of thing for some time on the forum, and I sympathize. But any buyer or dealer who thinks his pj will be worth in two years more than 50% of what they originally paid really needs to rethink things with things flying more fast and furious now technologically and competitively. As we have more to choose from (DLP, D5 LCD, and who knows how competitive Sony will choose to be in disseminating SXRD?) it's likely to get more cutthroat over the coming years.

Case in point: The H79 may not be able to maintain a high MSRP with the BenQ (hopefully remaining up to form and not carrying through with promises to "tighten up" the distributorship setup to prevent as much online sales as with the 8700+) giving us the 8720 at a competitive price. Heck, BenQ doesn't even have to worry about pleasing the B&M dealer anyway - are there any now for the 8700?

Dan

That's not an unusual price, I see other dealers at the same level. Looks like the $6999.00 msrp has taken hold and street vendors are competing.

Originally posted by drapp1952
I see what you're saying Scott. Optoma dealers have got to be leery, but what's a manufacturer to do to empty the shelves for the next product? B&M dealers have bemoaned this sort of thing for some time on the forum, and I sympathize. But any buyer or dealer who thinks his pj will be worth in two years more than 50% of what they originally paid really needs to rethink things with things flying more fast and furious now technologically and competitively. Yeah, I understnd being on the bleeding edge is expensive, and I'm OK with it. I admit I would have been much happier with a *slightly* slower drop. I got the itch to sell when it wasn't quite too late, so it worked out for me well enough.

I know it's the bleeding edge where the cost's are high with quick depreciation, I can live with that. I just think it was kinda low of Optoma to undercut the mainline distribution and allow one dealer to undercut the world. They should have offered something across the board. I'm not talking about dealers, I mean distribution - who the dealers buy from. The distributors are the ones now competing with PP.

With an across the board drop, everyone would have been happy (distributor wise) and more likely to buy up the next line (H79). And then we wouldn't have to wait for them to dump to get a good deal. 9 months by Craig's prediction.

From the dealers perspective, they still have value to add (calibration, installation, advise, FW upgrades from the better dealers) which PP won't give, so they aren't totally out in the cold. But someone sure opened the door and let the breeze in ;). And for those who still have theirs, I still think it's a fine PJ, especially if you or your dealer calibrated it and you got the latest FW. If you don't have upgradeitus like me, you should be perfectly happy with it :)

Hell, Optoma may not get around to releasing the H79 till Craigs predicted price drop timeframe anyway :D

S

Originally posted by guitarman
That's not an unusual price, I see other dealers at the same level. Looks like the $6999.00 msrp has taken hold and street vendors are competing. What choo talkin bout? H79?

I don't think Tom has seen PP's H77 price - it is unusual!

I checked the PP price :) for the H77. Price looks similar to others, even check the HT-sales area.

How does one go about updating the firmware on the H77? I contacted Optoma via e-mail but they were less than helpful. If I have followed correctly the unit needs to be sent back to Optoma. I was told by the Optoma rep. that they do not do a factory calibration after a firmware upgrade. I currently have C08. Is the latest firmware worth the upgrade?

Please advise.

Thanks.

Offer from Projector People (PP) for H77 to good to bee true? I live in PAL Country and Iam wonder if these machines are the same as they sell in Europe. If not will they be working well with NTSC and PAL?

Thanks

Originally posted by mleineke
How does one go about updating the firmware on the H77? I contacted Optoma via e-mail but they were less than helpful. If I have followed correctly the unit needs to be sent back to Optoma. I was told by the Optoma rep. that they do not do a factory calibration after a firmware upgrade. I currently have C08. Is the latest firmware worth the upgrade?

Please advise.

Thanks.

I also still have C08 and all signals look perfect but he main thing I would get the firmware for is Letterbox support. Even though some players will cover letterbox I'd still like to have it.

Projectors have to go to the factory for upgrades. You'll need to contact the tech area and set up an RMA.

USA machines will work for PAL users if it's got the newer firmware. C18 or C19 I think.

Forgot to congratulate Craig for being the first poster on page 100 of this thread. If nothing else, this thread generated a whole lot of "conversation". I feel like I know some of you. :D

Thanks. Tom - when do you start the new " Optoma H79 Review and Screenshots " thread?

" I checked the PP price for the H77. Price looks similar to others, even check the HT-sales area. " -

You add that to your " cart " and it's 33% cheaper than 6 weeks ago!

The price listed with the slash through it is MAP. There's an additional discount once you add it to your cart.

Throw in the free spare lamp, and it's a really good deal.

Originally posted by Craig Peer
Thanks. Tom - when do you start the new " Optoma H79 Review and Screenshots " thread?

" I checked the PP price for the H77. Price looks similar to others, even check the HT-sales area. " -

You add that to your " cart " and it's 33% cheaper than 6 weeks ago!

Isn't this just great, they made an effort to have an H79 in my hands so I can use it for the Super Bowl. woohoo!

Expect the review any day now. :)

PS I did put in a good word for AVS saying I hope they can put a sticky up top soon saying (H79's in stock).

Well, the really BIG question is gonna be on the panning and posterization issues.

And of course I'm interested in discrete codes, and source sync speed improvements.

And how it compares to it's current competitor, the Sim300E.

??

I think I'll have it tomorrow. I'm in a one-day shipping zone. Hey I just found out how to get a lower gamma on my displays with colorfacts. I've been getting a high reading at about 2.95. Wing says starting out with a higher choice of the 5 available gamma's will give me a lower reading after the grayscale test. Default is 1 he said try 3.

Wierd that choosing a higher gamma gives you a lower real time gamma.

I'm getting gamma of 2.52 on mine Tom - and I'm using gamma 2. I think I'm on colour temp2 in film mode, but I'll have to check the settings as I haven't looked at them in a while now.

Gary.

Just came back from Optoma (Milpitas, CA) where a nice fellow, Dave, allowed me to come up & spend some time with the H79 in their theater room. Basically they had it set up in a light controlled room (no windows), right next to the main lobby entrance. No A/C working during this unusually hot day for Feb 2 in the bay area, but I was just happy to finally get some time with this projector.

They had it hooked up to a Sony ES9000 DVD player & an HD-VHS player both via component, projecting a 123" image on a Dalite screen (didn't get what model) & the seating was about 14' or so back from the screen. From that distance even with that large of an image, there was no problem with SDE.

Once my eyes adjusted from the outside brightness from the drive over there, this projector looked fabulous. NIce black levels, sharpness & skin tones were beautiful. I couldn't check the noise because they had a big stand mounted fan on in the room about 10' in front of me, because it was so hot in there. However I was sitting right next to the projector (about 2' from my head) & couldn't hear it at all with the extra noise in the room.

The HD-VHS tape he was showing had an ABC broadcast of a Victoria's Secret runway along with some ABC sports material (hockey) and some other stuff. David said they used this tape earlier last year at a trade show & received many complaints from the women at the show. Didn't bother me whatsoever - in fact he just kept repeating that portion over & over & . . . . you get the point. Dave was trying to show off the projector's ability to deal with movement by showing the sports clips & various DVDs that had action & lots of movement. It handled all of that quite well. He mentioned that it was the speed of the wheel & the 8 segments that made that possible. Then when I asked him what was different from the H77 when it came to those 2 things, he looked up the spec sheet & said they were using the same wheel & speed as the H77. Mainly the DC3 was the biggest difference in the 2 projectors as far as he was aware. I'll bet there are a few other tweeks going on as well.

I've been trying to find an H77 in the bay area to view with no luck, though this Optoma fellow said he may have one there in a week & we could go back & forth between the 2 for comparisons. I hope that happens. He also said that he was pushing for a feature on their website of signing up for regular weekly auditions to be held in that same room. He figured they would take requests & try to schedule people to come in once each week to show off their projectors, rear screen projectors & plasmas. They are a small company & he said they could use the exposure.

He said the H79 was only to be available in the bay area through installers at the moment & the MSRP is $10k & is expected to be shipping within 2 weeks time.

All in all a very nice looking picture. I would be happy to have one of these, not at $10k, but I'll bet that will change once more DC3 projectors become available. Now if I can get to see an H77, that would be very helpful on my quest to upgrade my 4805.