I had the Panasonic tech come to my house and check out the VB. I also talked to him about how standby affected this issue.
He said the VB in it of itself was not that bad and probably nothing would be done about it.
About the standby introducing VB after it has been tweaked out he has not gotten back to me yet.
I also want to talk to him about the "white flash" issue.

He is currently gone for a couple days. When he gets back I'll see what he says, but I would recommend pursuing any leads anyone might have for these 2 issues, since my guy still has to relay his info to the Panasonic engineers.

Jordan "AstroCat"

Low lamp mode was used. Moving from desk to ceiling (on menu) made a difference in fan speed. Low lamp ceiling mode is nearly as loud as my 300 in high fan mode.

Originally posted by RobZ
Low lamp mode was used. Moving from desk to ceiling (on menu) made a difference in fan speed. Low lamp ceiling mode is nearly as loud as my 300 in high fan mode.

So much for the inaudible fan pjcentral describes. The 300 on high is loud, I'd say between 40 and 50dB.

I talked to Panansonic projector tech support about the standby/VB and "whiteflash" issues. They said they had not heard of either issue but will check in to it. I directed them to this thread.
So, I recommend giving them a call about these issues: 1800 524 1448
The more they hear about it the better chance they will fix it.

Jordan ""AstroCat"

Originally posted by AstroCat
I'm using the S97 with the AE700, but not with the supplied cable. I'm use a 10 meter HDMI cable I got from bettercables. So far, I like it. I use 1080i but I am still testing different settings.

Jordan "AstroCat"

Hi AstroCat you posted this reply in the panny s97 thread but i have a question regarding the panny 700 so i thought i post it in this thread.

have you had any experience with other projectors before the panny 700, this is my first projector(just ordered from Germany to Sweden) so i don't now what to expect. i have watched several projectors in stores (Z3, toshiba MT200, IF4805, TX100, Z2) but not the panny.

the MT200 looked great and also so did the Z3, the IF4805 was set up in a bright room so i cant make a judgment on that one. the Z2 was a little washed out compared to the Z3 and the TX100 looked a little bit grainy. but there wasn't a very big difference between them (except the Z2) and all of them are good choice's.

the DLP MT200 and IF4805 looked a little punshier in the image especially the MT200 which had a great picture. but i chose the PANNY because of the higher resolution the lens shift and throw distance. the Z3 actually costs about $400-500 dollars more here in Sweden compared to the panny so i chose the panny on the price but also after reading all of the reviews on forums etc. the panny seems like the better of the two, and 720p DLP are very expensive:p

so AstroCat you have the Panny 700 and the panny s97 just the package i have ordered:D have you seen other projectors and how does the panny measure up (of course in the same price range)

THANKS IN ADVANCE

Originally posted by RobZ
The 700 is pretty loud (fan) when ceiling mounted as compared to desk mount. Does anyone know why? It's actually pretty bad when compared to my previous 300 and 100.

As a former owner of a SE20HD/PLV70 this just makes me laugh. The Panny in "high lamp" mode is about as lound as the PLV70 in it's hush box. LOL. In low lamp mode it is pretty much un noticable.

Originally posted by Nurgle
Screen door-I noticed it, my wife didn’t. However It didn’t bother me at all. A little defocus clears it up but I prefer the sharpness of the correct focus. Again the picture is simply so pleasing to look at I probably overlook many minute imperfections.

Are you sure you're not confusing screen-door and the actual pixel structure of the display? Even with no screen door you will see indivdual pixels in certain cases but the gaps between pixels should be extremely minimal.

I've directly compared the 700 to two HD2 DLP units and the screen door was comparable and pretty much vanished a few feet from the screen.

I used to have a plv-60 and man, even with a hush box that thing was way too loud. I have the AE700 in low lamp mode on a little custom shelf attached to the ceiling and it is totally quiet enough. :)

Originally posted by ianken
As a former owner of a SE20HD/PLV70 this just makes me laugh. The Panny in "high lamp" mode is about as lound as the PLV70 in it's hush box. LOL. In low lamp mode it is pretty much un noticable.

Originally posted by ianken

I've directly compared the 700 to two HD2 DLP units and the screen door was comparable and pretty much vanished a few feet from the screen.

hi ianken how about the PQ of the panny against the HD2 DLP did they make the panny look terrible and washed out or isn't that much of a difference like you may believe if you read the information on forums etc.

i have just ordered the panny and i have not seen any HD2 DLP in action but after reading reviews and forums i get the impression that the HD2 DLP is far superior and that the panny looks all washed out next to them. What do you think.

thanks in advance

The 700's fan is obviously not a dealbreaker. It's just not as quiet as the 300 when ceiling mounted. When desk mounted it's great. I was looking at a Runco DLP a little while ago. I couldn't even hear it at a few feet away with the audio off.

I have the projector on a shelf directly above and behind my head. The fan is clearly audible, but is not distracting at all (the fan is NOT in high mode). Once you have the sound system turned on, I never even think about the fan noise, and I'm pretty sensitive to stuff like that.

As for no standby being a deal-breaker, I will admit that it is a pain, but since I am desk mounted, it is not that big of a deal to come back and kill the power switch directly after it has cooled down. Not perfect, and somewhat annoying, but not a deal breaker.

I agree with you, I do think its a serious problem. Then again, things like VB, slightly misallighed panels, slightly bad color uniformity, slight bowing, even some dead or stuck pixels, are all "within spec" for just about every projector currently on the market.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pannasonic fixed the standby problem in future production runs, but I doubt they will do anything to fix existing units.



Originally posted by obio
I know its hard for everyone to be critical of the new toy they've just purchased, but this whole "no standby" thing sounds like its extremely serious to me.

My question for the board is: If you can't put your projector on standby because your projector will develop Vertical Banding overnight.... isn't this a deal breaker for anyone?

I ceiling mount my projectors and the remote is "how I turn off my projector"

Having to wait around for cooldown and then kill the power is a major issue, and looks like a *major* design flaw. (Especially for a projector that's designed for everyday home use.)

Automatic cooldown/shutdown and standby is a feature of this (and every other) projector. Are we saying that this feature is defective? Everyone here seems to be in post-purchase bliss and its hard to get a critical read on the severity of this issue.

(By the way -- I'm still waiting for my 700 to arrive, so 'yes' I've already pulled the trigger).

Has Panasonic addressed this flaw?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by ianken
I've directly compared the 700 to two HD2 DLP units and the screen door was comparable and pretty much vanished a few feet from the screen.

That is depressing. I was hoping, based on the remarks about screen-door disappearing a few feet from the screen, that the 700 has much less screen door than an HD2 DLP.

I can easily see screen door in bright scenes on an HD2 DLP from 1.5X screen width. I need to be back at least 2X for it to disappear. And this my vision is just average (20/20).

Clearly different people have widley different sensitivities to (or perhaps, more likely, different tolerances for) screen door. It seems the only way to judge a projector for sure is see it for yourself.

Brent

Originally posted by ianken
Are you sure you're not confusing screen-door and the actual pixel structure of the display? Even with no screen door you will see indivdual pixels in certain cases but the gaps between pixels should be extremely minimal.

I've directly compared the 700 to two HD2 DLP units and the screen door was comparable and pretty much vanished a few feet from the screen.

It very well could have been the pixel structure of the screen. When I approach the screen 12" away I can see where the seams are and they are indeed very small (about the width of a hair). Its a forest from the trees thing. When I am at distance I cannot see the individual hairs, the pixel structure of the picture could be construed as screendoor to many novices such as myself who are unfamiliar with screen door properties.

Defocusing certainly would have the same effect on pixel structure definition as it would on actual lcd pixel seperation, so whichever one it is, is difficult to say. However I would tend to belive that it is more likely that the screendoor effect I mentioned earlier is more likely the pictures pixel structure and not the LCD screendoor as most people understand it.

I hooked up the PJ briefly yesterday. After turning it on, I watched the pod race scene from SW I. It looked very good. Due to my PJ placement, there is not way to turn it off manually (well, it would take a lot of effort and I'd have to then realign it each time I turned it on), so after 30 minutes or so I put it in standby. I turned it back on 3 hours later to give my wife a chance to see it. I played the same scene for her, and the picture was identical. I saw no VB and screen door was only visible from about 2-3 feet away. Now, perhaps this particular scene doesnt' lend itself to VB issues, but I saw none either time. I'll be able to play around with it more this weekend when I get back home (by then it will have been in standby for 4 days).



Stew

Got my AE700 today, and plumbed it in, straight out of the box the picture was absolutely stunning. No VB or peekaboo at all.

Just finished watching Episode 5 (ESB) and it was superb, the quality of the image is truly amazing. It beats the hell out of any other projector I have ever seen, and it's the quietest also.

I am very happy,........ very very happy.

106" image ........ and its pixel perfect.

Originally posted by RobZ
The 700 is pretty loud (fan) when ceiling mounted as compared to desk mount. Does anyone know why? It's actually pretty bad when compared to my previous 300 and 100.

The very reason I desk mounted my 700 on a rear shelf and sold my ceiling mount.

The 500's fan had identical loudness levels (and speed) on both desk and ceiling. Don't know why they changed it for the 700.

Unless ceiling mounting causes more heat to build up "around" the projector. Heat rises. And if the projector is mounted up near the ceiling this would be the case.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I have the projector on a shelf directly above and behind my head. The fan is clearly audible, but is not distracting at all (the fan is NOT in high mode). Once you have the sound system turned on, I never even think about the fan noise, and I'm pretty sensitive to stuff like that.

As for no standby being a deal-breaker, I will admit that it is a pain, but since I am desk mounted, it is not that big of a deal to come back and kill the power switch directly after it has cooled down. Not perfect, and somewhat annoying, but not a deal breaker.

I agree completely with both of these comments.

My 700 is also on a shelf directly above and behind my head. I feel exactly the same way.

I can reach up and turn off the main power easily as well. No - not a perfect solution (re: VB). Kind of a work around I guess. But it works.

Neither is a deal breaker for me as everything else about the machine is fantatstic.

Originally posted by Stew4msu
I hooked up the PJ briefly yesterday. After turning it on, I watched the pod race scene from SW I. It looked very good. Due to my PJ placement, there is not way to turn it off manually (well, it would take a lot of effort and I'd have to then realign it each time I turned it on), so after 30 minutes or so I put it in standby. I turned it back on 3 hours later to give my wife a chance to see it. I played the same scene for her, and the picture was identical. I saw no VB and screen door was only visible from about 2-3 feet away. Now, perhaps this particular scene doesnt' lend itself to VB issues, but I saw none either time. I'll be able to play around with it more this weekend when I get back home (by then it will have been in standby for 4 days).



Stew

3 hours isn't enough time. But 4 days sure will be. Good luck.

The pod scene doesn't seem to show much VB. Maybe because it's hidden by all the EE (Electronic enhancement) going on. Hope they re-master this disc some day.

Check SW 2 (AOTC) as a good test to check for VB. The beginning scene with the large ship landing on the pad in the fog (just before it blows up). You'll see VB in the background during the l-o-n-g slow camera pan. Look also for FPN here as well. Once you get past this scene - the rest of the disc is stunning.

The "no standby" is not that big a deal to me. I have gotten into the habit of turning off the projector with the remote first. Then I shut down the other components and put away my DVD. The PJ seems to cool down pretty fast, so it pretty much shuts off by the time I turn around to head out. Then I just hit the power switch and leave. No different than turning out the lights as I leave the room. It is now an ingrained habit so I don't worry about forgetting to do it.

While this workaround is clearly something that shouldn't be necessary, I would rather have this projector, at this price, with this level of performance, and with this idiosynchrasy, than not. If I didn't already own it, I can see how it might give me pause. However, now that I do own it, I can live with it - and I don't think that is a post-purchase rationalization, just a conclusion borne of personal experience with it.

I know some have complained about the aspect ratio problem earlier, but I did not see a final answer so I thought I'd give you the bad news that the manual states that you cannot control the aspect ratio with a 720p or 1080i input signal!

That doesn't make sense to me.

I have some DVD's that are letterbox rather than anamorphic widescreen, so I either have to watch an extremely "squashed" picture at 720P, or switch the DVD output to 480p -- which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a 720 PJ in the first place!

Also, TV shows and other films shot in 4x3 ratio are stretched out to 16x9, whether I want them to or not, unless I switch to 480p output.

I had an IF 4805 and I could use any aspect ratio I wanted at 1080i or any other signal input.

Any idea why Panny did such a dumb thing?

If anybod knows a way around this on 720p or 1081i output, please let me know.

SteveCoug,

I disagree. Having a PJ that does 720P is for HD. Big deal about upconverting DVDs that are only 480 anyway. I do agree that is sucks you can't change the aspect ratio, but disagree over "which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a 720 PJ in the first place!". If you only watch DVDs, you are overkill with a 720P PJ. Try a HD source, you will see the beauty that 720P offers.

Originally posted by RobZ
Low lamp mode was used. Moving from desk to ceiling (on menu) made a difference in fan speed. Low lamp ceiling mode is nearly as loud as my 300 in high fan mode.

does the menu mention that the ceiling mode required the full speed fan even use in low lamp mode?

No. With the ceiling option you can choose low or high mode. High mode is the same when ceiling or desk mounted.

This just figures that everones bashing this pj when mine is paid and on the way. I'm convinced yer a bunch of wankers:!
A lot of this sounds like "user" level problems, but I'll withhold anal retentive comparisons for now.
If anyone can screw up this projector, I can!.....

Do I need an anamorphic lens for the 700 if I'm using ZP/FFDSHOW to scale to 2.35:1? I see ppl posting about adding a lens so I was not sure it is needed if I can control the aspect ratio via my HTPC

Could anyone recommend an electric screen about 100".

I'm considering replacing my 64" RPTV here coming up and I'm very much considering this unit over the others. I just had 2 questions I wanted to run by the group.

First, I am a little concerned about the noise issue with the ceiling mount. This would be my first projector, and the noice factor scares me a little, and I know it would bother the wife. My room is about 20' deep and the couch is directly up against the back wall, so I had pretty much planned on ceiling mounting the unit. Would it be possible to build a small shelf into or coming out from the wall so I could put the unit right side up (like it was on a table or something similar) and have the noise level be lower? My home theater is up in the "bonus" room, which is the only room upstairs. There is an open crawl space all around the theater room, so drywalling a shelf "into" the existing wall wouldn't be all that difficult, I would think.

Secondly, I am also planning on building a HTPC. I am a bit confused whether the HTPC with FFDShow would give a better pic versus one of the new $300-$400 upconverting DVD players. What are your opinions? Someone also mentioned that an SDI-modded player which sends its signal into the HTPC to be scaled might be a good choice, too. But I'm not too sure what this SDI mod is.

TIA,
Aaron

Originally posted by tonybradley
SteveCoug,

I disagree. Having a PJ that does 720P is for HD. Big deal about upconverting DVDs that are only 480 anyway. I do agree that is sucks you can't change the aspect ratio, but disagree over "which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a 720 PJ in the first place!". If you only watch DVDs, you are overkill with a 720P PJ. Try a HD source, you will see the beauty that 720P offers.

Tony,

My understanding is that DVD's are encoded at the HD resolution, but most DVD players until now could only play back at 480p.

Am I wrong?

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Tony,

My understanding is that DVD's are encoded at the HD resolution, but most DVD players until now could only play back at 480p.

Am I wrong?

Yes.

DVD's are encoded at 720 x 420i (that's right interlace) - in other words standard NTSC resolution.

Have you set the output of your DVD player to reflect the fact that it is driving a 16:9 display?

ted

Steve Coug wrote:
____________________________________________________________
I have some DVD's that are letterbox rather than anamorphic widescreen, so I either have to watch an extremely "squashed" picture at 720P, or switch the DVD output to 480p -- which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a 720 PJ in the first place!
____________________________________________________________

I too have plenty of letterboxed DVDs and laserdiscs (non-anamorphic), but plan on purchasing the iScan HD+ to upconvert all of those movies to 720p on any projector I purchase. Right now, it's between the Panny 700 Sony HS-51, and possibly the Sharp XVZ2000 (if RBE is minimized).

tony

*

anyone looking to part with the 700 cheap let me know :)

Well, to be fair I was never a "basher" but I'll admit I was raising something of a stink about the 'no standby' issue.

That was, until I received my little bundle of joy this afternoon, turned it on (HD input) and saw one hell of a gorgeous picture.

All I can say is ... "Sweeeeeet". I've been sitting on my couch for the last few hours with a dumb looking grin on my face.

I haven't had the opportunity to see the 'no standby' issue (although I plan on leaving the projector in standby overnight this evening to see if I notice my settings degrade and the VB start to appear).

But I will say that first impressions are: This is one *extremely* nice little projector. Colors are wonderfully lush and actually seem to be well balanced out of the box. I did bump up the sharpness and contrast one notch -- but that could easily be my source.

Very very happy so far with this machine. The VB issue would have to be pretty aggregious to turn me off at this point.

I'll post my findings on the no-standby issue when I've got something more to share...

Originally posted by awtryau89
...Coming from a DLP this is not going to work for me. I adjusted the flicker and it is gone again but I just cannot stand the fact that this thing has to be turned off every night. Are there any other alternatives? ... This is a major thing for me as I just want things to work as they should and not have to bother.

Well... conceivably there is a solution to the standby issue, but its for someone far more technically inclined than myself:

There is a trigger output on the back of the PJ -- which seems like it could easily be rigged to a timer and a switch. Anyone out there know about this stuff?

Originally posted by Wittsdream
I too have plenty of letterboxed DVDs and laserdiscs (non-anamorphic), but plan on purchasing the iScan HD+ to upconvert all of those movies to 720p on any projector I purchase. Right now, it's between the Panny 700 Sony HS-51, and possibly the Sharp XVZ2000 (if RBE is minimized).

tony

Have you considered an upscaling DVD player? If your prime use for a scaler is for DVDs, you might give it some thought. It would be considerably less expensive.
You might also consider that the PJ itself scales these sources to its native resolution - whether the quality of the scaler is adequate for your purposes would be the prime consideration.

Here's (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=423609) a good place to start your research.

ted

I'm still waiting on my AE700 to arrive.

Quick question - It will not be a problem for me to turn the projector off after use in order to minimize VB problems but... does this mean that the projector will lose all it's settings, ie; brightness, contrast, etc.,.

It would be a pain to have to reset these every time I flicked the power back on?

Any owners able to respond ?

Obio

These triggers are typically used to turn a device on from standby, not shut it down from a standby state to a non powered state.

A good example is when you have a preamp such as the B&K Ref 50 that has multiple triggered outputs, you can program it to lower a screen and turn on the projector when you switch to a certain input. You can basically do the same thing with a programmable remote but have to be concerned that its aimed in the correct direction when the commands are executed.

PJ will not lose settings if its like the AE100/200/300 and 500.

While I understand peoples setups differ, I say if the ONLY problem you have is that you must power off each time after use, so be it. Get a wall switch or power bar. After each movie I walk around my room, clean up, go to the bathroom and then by the time I'm done the PJ fan is off and I turn off the power to it. I don't want it connected to AC when not in use anyways. Never have. Everyone's setup is different, but if you can work an easily accessible switch into the mix, its easy. My Panny 200 and iScan are both switched with a power bar I basically turn on and off with my foot. Its in a book shelf just off the ground so it can't be switched by accident.

For those of you who are waiting for your 700 to arrive, and are reading this (like I did) and worrying, please don't..... and certainly don't consider canceling your orders.

This PJ is superb, and if you have to turn it off at the mains.... well.... just turn it off at the mains. Big deal. Whats it going to do, take you 5 seconds ?
The plus sides of this PJ far out weigh the negatives.....

According to the Prismasonic webpage about 2.35:1 anamorphic:

In order to get these bars in use, you can stretch the image vertically so that every pixel in the 16:9 panel becomes active. This extra stretch can be done either with the HTPC or the external scaler. Also the new 16:9 projectors, such as Panasonic PT-AE700 and Sanyo PLV-Z3 can do this stretch. By operating this stretch, the picture geometry naturally goes invalid.

Can somebody please verify if the AE700 can in fact do this stretch mode?

Originally posted by Wittsdream
Steve Coug wrote:
____________________________________________________________
I have some DVD's that are letterbox rather than anamorphic widescreen, so I either have to watch an extremely "squashed" picture at 720P, or switch the DVD output to 480p -- which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a 720 PJ in the first place!
____________________________________________________________

I too have plenty of letterboxed DVDs and laserdiscs (non-anamorphic), but plan on purchasing the iScan HD+ to upconvert all of those movies to 720p on any projector I purchase. Right now, it's between the Panny 700 Sony HS-51, and possibly the Sharp XVZ2000 (if RBE is minimized).

tony


Tony,

I am using an upconverting DVD player, it's a Zenith 318.
It outputs 480p, 720p or 1081i video signals.

If you can adjust the aspect ratio of your picture with your iScan HD+ BEFORE the signal gets to the projector in 720p, that should work fine. However, I'm not familiar with the iScan, so I don't know if that is possible.

Unfortunatley, with a DVD player, you cannot watch letterbox DVD's in the 720p resolution, you have to watch them in 480p output as discussed above.

DVD's may be encoded at 480, but I swear they look sharper at 720P or 1081i on my projector. So I'm bummed about the aspect ratio problem. But fortunately, most modern DVD's are already set up for 16x9 screens, so it's just a small portion of my collection.

I have had an AE700 2 days now. The best picture i have seen on it are some of the Divico demo clips they have on their site. Overall i am fairly pleased.

However i am having a hell of a time getting it to display correctly via a HTPC utilizing a dvi to hdmi cable. Nvidia and powerstrip are both pissing me off. I had mistakenly assumed a digital 1280 by 720 signal would just fill the panel completely and thats that. Well it doesnt seem to be the case. Why can my desktop LCD with a dvi feed manage a panel perfect pixel fill and this projector cant ?

Also why is the res labelled 750 ? Yes i know the manual explains this is 720 but why even call it 750 ? Bizarre :)

Originally posted by Durabolin

However i am having a hell of a time getting it to display correctly via a HTPC and a dvi to hdmi cable. Nvidia and powerstrip are both pissing me off. I had mistakenly assumed a digital 1280 by 720 signal would just fill the panel completely and thats that. Well it doesnt seem to be the case. Why can my desktop LCD with a dvi feed manage a panel perfect pixel fill and this projector cant ?


During a demo of the AE700 in my basement theater, the AE700 we evaluated did pixel-perfect mapping over analog DB15 RGB perfectly from a HTPC with AIW Radeon 9800. We used a Bettercables Ultra DB15 M-M RGB cable- sends an analog signal with zero noise- as clean and stable as DVI (D/A conversions notwithstanding).

It was trivial to do 1:1 pixel mapping over RGB from a PC- just set the Radeon to 1280x720 @60 Hz and select the "Auto" function on the AE700 to auto set the pixel timings. We used the one pixel test pattern at http://www.marky.com/main/index.html, tiled on the desktop, to verify 1:1 pixel mapping.

I used the free Rage3D Tweak utility at rage3d.com to add 720p to the active resolution list. I still don't know why people use Powerstrip. Rage3D Tweak appears to do everything you'd need for custom resolutions, and it's free.

What I saw was a sight to behold. My previous two projectors, a Mits XGA and a PLV60, required a lot of pixel clock and phase adjustments to do perfect pixel maping with no noise or moire. The AE700's Auto function snapped the 1-pixel test pattern into perfect sync instantly- no clock/phase adjustments necessary to clean up even the residual sync noise/haze you see on most projectors via analog RGB. It looked like DVI to our eyes, and the other guys there are even more discriminating videophiles than me.

Moral of the story- if you want 1:1 pixel mapping on the AE700, use a high quality RGB analog cable.

I was against DVI/HDMI for the copy protection issues- looks like there's even more reason to avoid digital video connections...

From those of you who are running upconverted DVD over HDMI, I would like to know if you think:

A) there is enough PQ improvement over component 480(i,p) to justify buying a new DVD player
B) operational issues (such as white flashes) detract from the experience enough to make it not worthwhile

HMenke

I think its largely going to depend on which player you're using.

Also, you need to be thinking HDMI to HDMI if you choose to buy a new player. I think the flashes that some people are experiencing is due to long DVI cable runs or other differences between the DVI and HDMI specifications.

I got to play some Halo 2 on this bad boy pretty much all day yesterday. I'm still very happy with my projector purchase. After playing for quite a while yesterday, I really have to say the projector performs very well with blacks.

Originally posted by awtryau89
So let me make sure I understand what is being said about this. I am using a Hughes HTL-HD HDTV receiver and I should set it to Native and let the PJ do all the scaling? I can see the point here and realize that the PJ is probably going to have a better scaler than a $199 set top box whether it does 3:2 Pulldown or not. But are we SURE the 700 has 3:2 pulldown?

Assuming the Hughes box doesn't do 3:2 pulldown on 1080i signals, then yes, set it to Native (which I assume means "pass through whatever the incoming signal format is") and let the AE700 do the deinterlacing and scaling to 720p.

The hughes box most likely simply scales each 1920x540 field in the 1080i video signal to 1280x720p when set for 720p output.

Nope, I have HDMI to HDMI and I get the flashes.

Jordan "AstroCat"

Originally posted by JimP
HMenke

I think its largely going to depend on which player you're using.

Also, you need to be thinking HDMI to HDMI if you choose to buy a new player. I think the flashes that some people are experiencing is due to long DVI cable runs or other differences between the DVI and HDMI specifications.

Originally posted by markbingo
For those of you who are waiting for your 700 to arrive, and are reading this (like I did) and worrying, please don't..... and certainly don't consider canceling your orders.

This PJ is superb, and if you have to turn it off at the mains.... well.... just turn it off at the mains. Big deal. Whats it going to do, take you 5 seconds ?
The plus sides of this PJ far out weigh the negatives.....

I absolutely agree. If I had it to do over again - I would buy this projector in a heartbeat. At least you can work around some of it's idiosyncracies. How you gonna work around the "rainbow" problem w/DLP???

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I absolutely agree. If I had it to do over again - I would buy this projector in a heartbeat. At least you can work around some of it's idiosyncracies. How you gonna work around the "rainbow" problem w/DLP???

I feel the need to reiterate also -- I would buy this projector again in a heartbeat if I didn't own it today. We are HT enthusiasts, we love our toys, we also love to talk about what's wrong with them -- this is one way to ensure future products are improved, and it also encourages the finding and sharing of tweaks for our toys.

There is no perfect projector today, and I'm sure the projectors of the future that will beat the snot out of today's projectors, will have some flaws we can still talk about after we upgrade :)

I've studied the projector market for a very long time and demo'd many projectors, several of them thousands of dollars more expensive than the AE700, and guess what, even with its flaws, I believe the AE700 is the best buy in front projection today. We've already posted about all its wonderful features and improvements over other models. New owners are going to be thrilled when they see it.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I absolutely agree. If I had it to do over again - I would buy this projector in a heartbeat. At least you can work around some of it's idiosyncracies. How you gonna work around the "rainbow" problem w/DLP??? Buying a projector is like getting married. You have to learn to accommodate the 'new thing in your life'. This accommodation includes the return aspect, hehe. Just focus on the strengths and try to ignore/forget the weaknesses. BTW, neither typically will watch football or bring you a beer, but you'll love them just the same.

Of course, in a fire you may or may not place a larger effort on saving one over the other, but that's a different discussion.

Originally posted by ianken
As a former owner of a SE20HD/PLV70 this just makes me laugh. The Panny in "high lamp" mode is about as lound as the PLV70 in it's hush box. LOL. In low lamp mode it is pretty much un noticable.

We appreciate your perspective.

Everything is relative. For those considering an upgrade from the very quiet 300 or 500, or comparing the 700 to a Z3 for instance, the fan noise may be highly relevant.

It's relevant as well since the 300 and the 500's fan speed did not increase simply because the desk/ceiling setting changed. Perhaps bringing this to the attention of Panasonic could prompt a fix in future production runs. Initial production Sanyo Z1's suffered from a similar problem which was addressed in a firmware update.

This would not be the first time that discussing all of a products 'shortcomings' on this forum has prompted a manufacturer to make improvements.

anyone figure out how long it actually takes when you turn it off (not stand-by) for the VB'in to disappear, like is it 30 seconds of or are we talking hours?

Are we just waiting for the capacitor's inside to discharge when we power it off (not stand-by)?

I have not seen any white flashes so far using a dvi cable and hdmi adapter. It is a 6' cable, ATI 8500DV card, and WMVHD files off my hard drive. I use the lamp in low mode. Where should I be looking for these flashes? Is it the whole screen lightness change, or is it in spots? I do power off each night after viewing. I am projecting on a white wall, but my Dalite 52x92" HCCV permwall should be here the middle of next week. I will take some screen shots after that and post them here if I figure out how to do it.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
I feel the need to reiterate also -- I would buy this projector again in a heartbeat if I didn't own it today. We are HT enthusiasts, we love our toys, we also love to talk about what's wrong with them -- this is one way to ensure future products are improved, and it also encourages the finding and sharing of tweaks for our toys.

There is no perfect projector today, and I'm sure the projectors of the future that will beat the snot out of today's projectors, will have some flaws we can still talk about after we upgrade :)


Yes, if you are new to front projection, all this harping on VB, 1:1 pixel mapping over DVi, and other stuff might scare you off.

But, like TraderGordo said, this is our way of communicating improvements to the manufacturers. If we didn't, we'd still be stuck with 640x480 pixel, 300 lumen, 10:1 contrast ratio projectors with compsite only inputs ;). Whining about more resolution, more brightness, more contrast, excessive VB or FPN, problems with 1:1 pixel mapping over DVI, etc, is how we motivate the manufacturers to improve their products.

Is everyone sensitive to all these issues? Nope.

Given experience, you learn to read these threads "between the lines", digest what you've read, weigh the pros and cons, and pick what's right *for you* and your situation.

I have been through two projectors in 5 years, and will probably pull the trigger on an AE700. Owning these projectors helped me determine what bothers *me* and what doesn't. Is the AE700 perfect? Nope. But having read a lot and evaluated one personally, I think I 'll get enough improvements, while being able to live with its known issues, to continue having fun with this hobby.

My pair of Lincolns...

I had originally posted that the "flicker" adjustment had only made an improvement of only 85% to my PJ's VB problem; since the VB was still rather visible I contacted my retailer(PJ People) and they are gladly replacing it! I should have my new one by friday; and will be checking for VB over the weekend; from what I understand some units don't suffer from that bug at all...meaning no flicker adj is req... I'll post my experience with the 2nd one as soon as I can.

I am currently trying to decide whether to purchase an upconverting DVD player (pan DVD-S97) or to go with an HD OTA receiver (LG LST-4200). I can't afford both right now, but I wonder where I will get the best picture quality improvement over the lesser component-linked devises?

I watch from each devise (DVD and Receiver) fairly equally. Is the DVI connection from the OTA receiver going to give me better picture quality on HD programming - OR - will the upconverting DVD player give me better picture quality from DVDs?

Thanks for any feedback-

Interesting about the RGB/VGA connection. Can any of the up-converting DVD players or the iScan HD send a 1280 x 720p signal via RGB VGA cable?

I am using the HDMI imput from my HTPC and I am definately cropping some pixels. I am still not clear whether this is overscan or (not) 1:1 pixel mapping issue. Which ever it is, what is the best way to clear it up. Most of my content will be thru HDMI from HTPC (ATI 9000 AIW) so I want to get this right.

Should (can) I use the ATI driver overscan adjustment or is that only for component imput? Discussed here. (http://www.anandtech.com/multimedia/showdoc.aspx?i=2181&p=3)

Should I use powerstrip? Has anyone else done this and what were the timings you used?

Is there some other way?

Should I use component or VGA out from the video card and then ATI drivers or powerstrip?

Do I have to live with it. (annoying cropping but I love the picture)

Someone mentioned something about a Powerbuy on these bad boys, but there's nothing about them in the appropriate forum. Did I miss something? I'm ready to jump in!

Originally posted by THops
I am currently trying to decide whether to purchase an upconverting DVD player (pan DVD-S97) or to go with an HD OTA receiver (LG LST-4200). I can't afford both right now, but I wonder where I will get the best picture quality improvement over the lesser component-linked devises?

I watch from each devise (DVD and Receiver) fairly equally. Is the DVI connection from the OTA receiver going to give me better picture quality on HD programming - OR - will the upconverting DVD player give me better picture quality from DVDs?

Thanks for any feedback- Do you already have some OTA HD receiver? If not, by all means, get that first. True HD is far, far superior to DVD.

The question on DVD players is whether you think a new DVD player can scale better than the new projector. I don't have first-hand experience but I'd be skeptical that there could be a significant difference.

Again, if you don't already have HD, get that first.

THops,

Your most impressive picture will come from an HD OTA receiver. Broadcast material can vary. It seems like the sports broadcasts are the highest resolution.

When you use HDMI/DVI .. can you not use the "AUTO" setting for the picture adjustment? It should fix that and then you use the minor adjustments if its still a little out.

Originally posted by TraderGordo


I've studied the projector market for a very long time and demo'd many projectors, several of them thousands of dollars more expensive than the AE700, and guess what, even with its flaws, I believe the AE700 is the best buy in front projection today. We've already posted about all its wonderful features and improvements over other models. New owners are going to be thrilled when they see it.

hi TraderGordo

i have just ordered the panny 700 so its nice to read your post, because after reading forums etc. i got the impression that the DLP:s (in the panny 700 price range) was far superior. this is my first projector and i have watched a few in stores and they all seamed pretty equal (both dlp and lcd in the panny 700 price range)

so i wonder you have probably tested several projectors, how does the panny 700 measure up, is there a significant difference to a DLP in terms of punch in the picture and depth (a dlp that doesn't cost alot more than the panny)

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

My understanding was that the 'Auto" setting on the AE700 was only working with VGA or component input not the HDMI input. I may be wrong here but where is the 'auto' setting for 1:1 pixel mapping using HDMI?

Originally posted by AstroCat
Nope, I have HDMI to HDMI and I get the flashes.

Jordan "AstroCat"

And I have DVI to HDMI at only 16' and I get the flashes.

There is no AUTO adjustment for HDMI. Auto is found in the Positioning menu and when an HDMI source is being used the only 2 positioning options are vertical and horizontal movement. However it doesnt expand to full panel but simply moves it around within the cropped boundaries. Its vertical thats the issue not horizontal. I wouldnt have complained if it was that simple :)

I read this thread religiously and im not sure i have seen anyone using an nvidia card + htpc + hdmi successfully yet. If you have stick your hand up please.

Btw on the positive side no white flashes but i would accept white flashes if it enabled me to have for a 1:1 panel fill anytime :)

Well I do not get any flashes or vb once I finally got everything setup right. I was getting flickers when using hdmi and my computer(dvi) but I changed my driver, and now it is fine. The cool thing about this projector is that it syncs to 1920x1080 without powerstrip. I can now see source material on the computer like games at 1920x1080. It is amazing!! It does all of the resolutions but for some it will only show part of the picture like 1600x1200. 1280x1024 looks fine but of course 1280x720 looks the best. I finally had time to mess with it last night for a spell. I found the original driver will not let you switch to this without using rage3d. I have no use for powerstrip. The L500u had the same amount of pixels cut off of the top and bottom. I never miss them. I am using the rgb input for my Dish 6000 HD receiver. It really looks nice. The aut setup turns off when you are using HDMI as far as I can tell. I may be wrong though. I could not find it.

Well I got it, and it's amazing. My first projector and all I can say is wow. It's super bright (was worried it might not be bright nuff). Running DirecTV into it via s-video for now while I play around with it and it looks great, so far no VB'in (using white wall screen comes Friday)

I'll post what I think after I have had more then 30min to play with it... but so far i notice on the Left hand side where the air vent is ... IT GETS HOT

Count me in as well for a power buy!

It gets a little hot i agree but not excessively so. Better the front left than back or either side. I cannot stress enough to anyone on the fence how easy this projector is in terms of placement. A rear shelf is such a simple option if the room allows it and you save quite a bit of money on shorter cable runs and not requiring a ceiling mount.

My 700 is finally here as well! After getting delayed in Canada Customs for a few days, it was sitting on my front step when I got home. Good thing the neighbours weren't around... No problems with Duty.

So now I need to wait for it to warm up from -10C so that I can try it out.

BTW, the Panasonic Canada warranty states that all parts (including bulb) and labour are covered for a period of 1 year. Of coures, it also says that you had to buy it in Canada....

Thanks to VA for good customer service and trying to get it here fast.

Interesting. A few Canadians buying in but not any Toronto or Southern Ontario owners that I can see yet. (I think there is one but he hasn't chimed in here to say it has arrived at his home).

So how many pixels are cropped top and bottom from the HDMI input? How many lines on top are missing and how many lines on the bottom? If its only like 5 or 6 lines, I guess most people can live with it.

Originally posted by cpc
Interesting. A few Canadians buying in but not any Toronto or Southern Ontario owners that I can see yet. (I think there is one but he hasn't chimed in here to say it has arrived at his home).

So how many pixels are cropped top and bottom from the HDMI input? How many lines on top are missing and how many lines on the bottom? If its only like 5 or 6 lines, I guess most people can live with it.

As a Canuck who has been playing and being impressed with this thing for over a week, I am experiencing a cropping of about 14 lines in the vertical dimension. I am using HDMI out of an ATI 9000 AIW DVI out. You can adjust where the cropping is on the top and bottom by using the vertical positioning in the remote. (I tend to share the pain by putting about 7 pixels cropped at top and bottom. As far as I have been able to see on this forum, there is no fix for this. Shame because the projector is fantastic otherwise. Seems like you are getting robbed of almost 2% of your visible area. It might make more sense to go component or VGA out and adjust there.

Does anyone else here use a pronto? I can't get mine to turn the 700 off. It will turn it off, but then it comes back on.

DV8

Is 2% significant?

Originally posted by JimP
DV8

Is 2% significant?

Well it is for a home mortgage over 25 years.

I don't see it when I am being swept away with the latest Blockbuster HD or DVD movie.
I do see it, and it annoys me when I am at the Windoze desktop. When I get my front end properly set up with Meedio or whatever I am going to use, I thankfully won't have to deal with part of the 'Start" button on the desktop being cut off.

I am having the same problem with cropping via the HDMI input.
My setup is -

Denon 3910 with Lindy 3m HDMI cable or HDSTB with DVI-HDMI also 3m Lindy.
I have also tried a 1m Monster HDMI cable. There is no dfference in PQ between the 2 lengths/brands.

In addition of major concern to me is the PQ via the digital input. It is difficult to describe but
1. The picture is not as stable as by component ie little jerks in fine details from time to time. This is quite noticeable on faces.
2. I occasionaly see curvy dotty very fine lines with red-black dots in brighter areas of the picture.

The component input provides a better more stable image and this is what I plan to use until I can find a solution.
Anybody else with this experience with digital on the 700 or other displays?

I just cant understand the logic from Panasonic here. Why not match it perfectly 1 to 1 with a digital feed of 1280 by 720 ? Surely that is simple. Any desktop lcd i have had seems to manage that without issue. What reasons would they have for not doing so ?

Also, has anyone come up with a logical answer why 720 is called 750 yet ?

Originally posted by muadib
Does anyone else here use a pronto? I can't get mine to turn the 700 off. It will turn it off, but then it comes back on.

The AE700 needs either two quick presses of the Off key, or else holding down the Off key for about 1 sec. I wonder if the Pronto is holding it too long, such that it comes back on.

I am still having an issue with random loss of sync on 1080i HDMI coming from my HD cable box. Sometimes the picture partly snows over. Other times there is total snow. Turning off and on the cable box is the only way to re-sync. During the loss of picture, digital audio to my A/V receiver remains unaffected. Anyone else seeing anything like this?

As always I was not well prepared. Being lazy, I certainly never checked to see if I really had a good stand to get it to the right height. I tend to "wing" these things and then look for something better. Had to use a speaker stand and some large books to get the height. My lense shift is near the top of its range. Needs work. I'll be shopping tomorrow.
HDMI? Why did I think DVI? Fathead. I need an adapter. Stuck on Component video until tomorrow.
Loaded Avia and went to the grey screens to look for bad pixels. I thought I saw two at 10 ire.
I'll have to go back to that.
Adjusted sharpness all the way down on ae700 and 3910.
Looked like a bit of ringing still, but between the two with sharpness down all the way, it looked very "unsharpened".
Did white and black levels a few times. Need to work on that a bit more, but seemed like a good quickie job.
Turned on cnn for a few minutes. Looked pretty bad.
Shut it down.
Had a Smuttynose Old Brown Dog Ale. Highly recommended video adjustment device.
Not trying to get into the service menu and checking vb adjustment til tomorrow;)
OK, ready for quick test - a movie, well, the beginning of dve anyway.
Flag looked great. I see pixels up close, but way way better than x1. Otherwise pretty clean.
Sky, well.... Yes I see vb. Other artifacts too. Looked like some noise and aliasing jpeg style going on a bit. Did I see some macroblocking? Whatever.
Looked really great overall.
Next a bit of "The Thing" latest new release. Colors a bit funky, my colors needs work. Still some vb on sky scenes.
Video noise - I do have a silverstar, which may be a cause of some of the noise shimmering over the screen, but moving the pj a bit seemed to make everything follow, so it is probably not a silverstar issue. yay. (sort of yay)

What's the best pattern for adjusting "noise" settings, or should they all be off as much as possible?

My settings so far are stable with on/off, but no service menu things have been tried, so...
I'll post tomorrow when I have checked out HD over component video and 3910 over dvi/hdmi.
Need to watch a movie now!

Originally posted by HMenke
I am still having an issue with random loss of sync on 1080i HDMI coming from my HD cable box. Sometimes the picture partly snows over. Other times there is total snow. Turning off and on the cable box is the only way to re-sync. During the loss of picture, digital audio to my A/V receiver remains unaffected. Anyone else seeing anything like this?
That's weird. I know that broadcasters limit/reduce the bandwith allocated for HD broadcast, but no one ('til now) complained about it messing with the sync.
Does it happen on diff. channels? Any similarity patterns when it occurs ( like time until loss of sync, how frequent it happens, etc)

I guess I'll go back to the fence:D

NOW I SEE WHAT VB IS!!!!!

I got my AE700 yesterday. Set it up for a quickie look last night. Used my new Panny S97 DVD player via HDMI. Looked good/great OOTB. Did some cursory tweaking, compared it to my AE300 and enjoyed a little bit of SW Episode IV. It was late, fell asleep in chair, woke up after about 30 minutes and went to bed. (put pj into standby first). Tonight, after work, turned PJ back on. WOW!!! NOW I SEE WHAT VB IS!!!! Alternating slightly darker and slightly lighter vertical bands measuring about 2-3 inches wide. (I have a 10 foot wide screen so the size of the picture contributes to the size of the bands I'm sure). Just thought I'd share my experience. Off to do some more tweaking and see if total power down makes a difference.

Radsman

Originally posted by Nolan Cromwell
That's weird. I know that broadcasters limit/reduce the bandwith allocated for HD broadcast, but no one ('til now) complained about it messing with the sync.
Does it happen on diff. channels? Any similarity patterns when it occurs ( like time until loss of sync, how frequent it happens, etc)

I guess I'll go back to the fence:D

I am trying to determine if there is anything in particular that would trigger this. I used to think it was more likely to happen on the scrambled channels, however it also happened twice while I watched an HD-DVR recording of Leno earlier tonight. It seems to happen more often in the first 30 minutes of watching. Now I have had it on for 2-1/2 hours and have had no issues.

For those of you scared by all the negativity/criticism/perfectionists....

I recieved my AE700 yesterday and I am totally in amazement with this machine. This is my first step into the wide world of HT and I must say I chose the right PJ to start with. After looking at all the big screens in the Dept. Stores, this pj blows them away! for alot less $$. I also played Halo 2 (xbox)for a couple of hours and it performed flawlessly via component. Everyone that sees this setup turns instantly green with envy...so a BIG THANKS to this board for it's wonderful recommendations!!

VB?....I don't see no stinking VB...

(going HDMI on Monday!! woohoo)

ae700 input via VGA......

Many people have asked but no one seems to have tried it yet so I will try again.

Who has hooked up via VGA input...just like in the old ae100 days when that setup was king!?

I would love to know about missing pixels if any in this mode as well as VB impact at least for dvd sources via a htpc (and tt2 and pstrip of course)

thanks,
rs

Originally posted by markbingo
For those of you who are waiting for your 700 to arrive, and are reading this (like I did) and worrying, please don't..... and certainly don't consider canceling your orders.

This PJ is superb, and if you have to turn it off at the mains.... well.... just turn it off at the mains. Big deal. Whats it going to do, take you 5 seconds ?
The plus sides of this PJ far out weigh the negatives.....

I could not agree more. I've got almost 40 hours on mine in about a week. Which is kinda sad, I know.

I don't turn it off at the mains. Is there some VB? sure, very very slight on all inputs, 480i, 480p, whatever. The "flicker" option did nothing for it on my unit. FPN is very mild and screendoor is a non issue. No "white flashes" for me. No "peekaboo scanlines" on progressive sources.

The jump in image quality over my SE20HD is dramatic.

I only whish I could get more light output AND accurate color. I guess the Cine4Home folks managed this with a filter on dynamic mode and a calibration. This is the tweak I am interested in most. But even with less light output compared to the SE20HD I am super pleased with the results.

There are a few issues I have with this unit:

1- The video processor: too many instances of combing on 480i and 1080i material, but the scaling is good and the processing of color is good.
2- Croping of pixels on 720p from a PC via HDMI. No excuse for this.
3- The iris occasionally makes a cliking noise. No biggie but I wonder if it is normal.

Things that are minor annoyances:

1- Lens shift. A great feature poorly implemented. I can forgive this in a $2K projector. After having power shift, zoom and focus in the SE20HD the manual stuff was annoying.

Things I love:

1- Cuts/Drives Gains/Bias in user menu. No service menu spelunking to hit D65K. Now I just need a color meter.
2- Noise. Or lack thereof. Low lamp mode is stunningly quiet and only slightly less bright.
3- OOB image quality. "Normal" mode may not be D65K but flesh tones look good and it is acceptable for casual sports viewing. Minor tweaks yield en even better image with other modes.
4- Avia tweak: what tweak? Hue, Tint and Black Level were pretty much spot on for 0 IRE blacks. Never had that happen before.
5- Decent user presets, allows me to have a black level for 7.5 IRE from my analog big dish and 0 IRE blacks from the DVD and other digital sources. Wish there were discrete buttons for them like muy SE20HD. No biggie.
6- Remembers setting not just per input but per scanrate/mode. Nice.
7- Black levels. I no longer envy my DLP using buddies.

You're not gonna find a better HD projector for the money. Charging $5K+ for a HD2 DLP just got stupid, IMHO. The performance difference between the 700 and costlier units just does not justify the cost delta. Panasonic has delivered an unbeatable value.

Originally posted by rsegato
ae700 input via VGA......

Many people have asked but no one seems to have tried it yet so I will try again.

Who has hooked up via VGA input...just like in the old ae100 days when that setup was king!?

I would love to know about missing pixels if any in this mode as well as VB impact at least for dvd sources via a htpc (and tt2 and pstrip of course)

thanks,
rs

Visit the tweaks thread. Pixel perfect display via VGA with automatic calibration of position and phase is one of many great features of the AE700.

"Auto Position" on the VGA port has always been a "feature" of the Panasonic projectors from the AE100 to the 500. I agree its handy. The AE700 is sounding pretty cool.

ianken,

I guess the de-interlacing in the AE700 isn't quite a faroudja or Silicon image level chip. Did you make sure that "Cinema Reality" was ON. I imagine that just means 3:2 pulldown detection.

Well folks, keep watching, tweaking and reporting. Enjoy those projectors and share with your friends :)

Wow. I can’t believe I finally got through this entire 130 page monster. Only took one whole day of my life.

Before clicking on this thread I knew absolutely nothing about LCD projectors. Now I fear I'll be going to sleep tonight muttering terms like vertical banding, screendoor, 1:1 pixel mapping, white flashes, salmon filter, smooth vision, dynamic iris, peekaboo.....

In any case I’m forgetting about all the niggly issues and am sooo ordering one of these puppies. Can’t wait. Thanks to everyone who has contributed valuable and not so valuable information to this giant thread! :)

For what it's worth....I emailed PP this AM about the 'peek-a-boo' effect I've got on my 700. (All things considered...a very MINOR issue). Was just curious to hear what they had to say. They offered to look at my 700 and even replace it if they found issues.

Sooooo...in preparation of sending off my 700 to PP tonight, I brought home an NEC 245 I just bought for the office. Long story short, even after about 45 minutes of tweaking, the 245's picture was an embarrasement when compared to the 700. Color, SDE, sharpness...everything...the 700 just creamed the 245. I re-installed my 700 and will give PP a very polite thank you, but 'no thanks' at their offer to look at my PJ. I was just stunned at how much better the picture was vs the 245. Pry my 700 out of my cold, dead, fingers. Watched LOTR/ROTK tonight...just awesome.

The ultimate litmus test: My wife came in and saw ther 245's picture and immediately said, "wow...what's wrong with the projector?". She didn't know I had switched PJ's.

Oh Lord, grant me:

The presence of mind to never leave my 700 in standby mode,

the good fortune to never see white flashes,

and the wisdom to purchase an extended warranty while I still may.

Amen

Sorry if this is not the right forum for this question, but I've had a hard time finding recommendations for a ceiling mount for the Pansonic AE700 which I've decided to buy. I'm thinking that a universal mount would be wise so that I won't need to buy another one whenever I upgrade to a different projector in the future. I need to drop my projector at least 12" from the ceiling (which is about the most my wife will accept) even though this will force me to use most of the vertical lens shift to get the top of the picture at 17" from the ceiling for a 106" diagonal screen. This is the one weakness of the AE700 that I do not like, but I think it is still the best choice for me. I'm leaning toward the Premier PBL-UM mount because of its cost and I like its design, but I would sure appreciate any comments or recommendations by others since this is my first mount and projector. Thanks!

Originally posted by Durabolin
I read this thread religiously and im not sure i have seen anyone using an nvidia card + htpc + hdmi successfully yet. If you have stick your hand up please.
[Sticks hand up] GeForce FX 5700 via 10m Lindy DVI-HDMI lead. Looks gorgeous. No vertical banding. Don't care about cropped pixels top and bottom as I'm using a 2.35:1 custom screen. [Puts hand back down again]

Hey all,

This projector seems like a bargain according to the specs. I really wanted DLP but didn't wanna pay the premium on it.

Anyways, are yall experiencing these flicker and VB problems using DVI/HDMI from a DVI/HDMI DVD Player or HTPC? Will I have a problem just using a DVD Player with HDMI output? I will be running the cables about 30 feet.

Thanks for your responses.

-KostaVan

Raised hand noted :)

I also have the Lindy dvi to hdmi cable. It seems to do the job. But ugh cropped pixels. i watch too much hdtv to justify a 2.35:1 screen.

I might end up getting a nice Lindy VGA cable and giving up on HDMI. Even if i didnt mind the cropping the end result is i dont get complete fill on a 16:9 screen so i get an annoying strip of screen at either the top or bottom.

Originally posted by KostaVan
Hey all,

This projector seems like a bargain according to the specs. I really wanted DLP but didn't wanna pay the premium on it.

Anyways, are yall experiencing these flicker and VB problems using DVI/HDMI from a DVI/HDMI DVD Player or HTPC? Will I have a problem just using a DVD Player with HDMI output? I will be running the cables about 30 feet.

Thanks for your responses.

-KostaVan


Ill be using the same (30ft hdmi to hdmi dvd player)

Any comments on this?

Originally posted by kapoguy
Sorry if this is not the right forum for this question, but I've had a hard time finding recommendations for a ceiling mount for the Pansonic AE700 which I've decided to buy. I'm thinking that a universal mount would be wise so that I won't need to buy another one whenever I upgrade to a different projector in the future. I need to drop my projector at least 12" from the ceiling (which is about the most my wife will accept) even though this will force me to use most of the vertical lens shift to get the top of the picture at 17" from the ceiling for a 106" diagonal screen. This is the one weakness of the AE700 that I do not like, but I think it is still the best choice for me. I'm leaning toward the Premier PBL-UM mount because of its cost and I like its design, but I would sure appreciate any comments or recommendations by others since this is my first mount and projector. Thanks!

I decided to go against a ceiling mount altogether, and ended up putting it on a silver shelf. Obviously the projector was on the back wall so I could do this, but it is at ceiling height.

My 700 is the right way up, and less than a foot from the ceiling, and is projecting a 106" image with no problems from about 6 meters.

I am using a lot of the lens shift to drop the image down (the lens is about 3" lower than the top of my screen) but there is still some to go, and I have noticed no distortion from using so much of the shift.

My dealer thought I would have to mount my projector upside down to get the image, but I am happy to say he was wrong in this respect.

In answer to your question, this might mean that you too do not need to buy a universal type ceiling mount, you could just build a DIY drop shelf from the ceiling, and sit the projector in it. This way, future upgrades to other projectors should not be an issue, since I have yet to see a projector that cant sit on a shelf !!!

Go here for some examples : http://www.projectorpeople.com/hometheater/hometheater-showrooms.asp

Or... if you still want to ceiling mount it try this generic mount : http://www.chiefmfg.com/product_display.asp?typ=ps&id=30

Good Luck

Mark

Originally posted by ianken

You're not gonna find a better HD projector for the money. Charging $5K+ for a HD2 DLP just got stupid, IMHO. The performance difference between the 700 and costlier units just does not justify the cost delta. Panasonic has delivered an unbeatable value.

HI ianken, thats great i have just ordered the panny and i didn't now if i was to go with the DLP:s after reading forums i got the impression that the DLP:s were superior in PQ and Punch in the picture.

so if i understand it right the punch and depth in the Panny 700 isn't far of from that of a DLP in the same price range. meaning that the panny doesn't look terrible side to side against a DLP (for example the toshiba mt200 or the benq 7800) whats your opinion (or anyone else who has seen the panny against a DLP),

thanks again for all the great posts about the panny (i am a first time projector buyer so i hope i chose the right one:p)

With all the talk about vertical banding in the AE700 (not that its in most projectors), I am surprised I have not seen 5, 10 or even 20 new AE700 owners photographically documenting their condition in this thread (i.e. posting pictures) for others' benefit.

Hi All,

I have been following the thread since the beginning and the topic of the white flashes that people are seeing worries me. My AE700 is still on its way to me and so is my upscaling DVD player. However I came across this little explanation of HDCP which I think is interesting and might have something to do with the flashes of snow that people are reporting. The quote is below:

"HDCP decoding mechanism, the picture is relegated to "snow" or in some cases, a very low (480P) resolution. In order to see HDTV with HDCP compliance, both the source and display devices must be equipped with DVI connections that can enable HDCP using "software key" decoding."

Could the snow flashes that people are seeing have to do with the HDCP algorithm in the 700 misinterpreting the source code?

Cheers

Mav

Originally posted by Durabolin
I just cant understand the logic from Panasonic here. Why not match it perfectly 1 to 1 with a digital feed of 1280 by 720 ? Surely that is simple. Any desktop lcd i have had seems to manage that without issue. What reasons would they have for not doing so ?

Also, has anyone come up with a logical answer why 720 is called 750 yet ?

One reason I offered in the tweak thread might be that Panasonic assumes that all 720p and 1080i inputs will be HDTV video, not a computer desktop GUI.

The cropping for HDTV video only wouldn't be an issue, as nearl all movies are 1.85 or greater aspect, meaning the missing rows will only be black bars most of the time. The rest of the time, Panasonic probably assumes there will be a few lines of "garbage" in the HDTV signal (which I see on occasion from OTA HDTV broadcasts) at the top and/or bottom of the image, so cropping them off would be an improvement in their eyes.

All that said, Panasonic ought to have an opton to disable cropping/overscan for 720p/1080i inputs over DVI.

Send emails to Panasonic tech support. Maybe we can motivate them to do a firmware update.

RGB, maybe Panasonic should offer an AE700e model, where 'e' is for extras like electronic masking adjustment. :)

I'm using a 5 meter DVI-HDMI cable from a HTPC, no flicker or VB yet, but I've religiously shut off main power to the unit overnight.

Originally posted by KostaVan
Anyways, are yall experiencing these flicker and VB problems using DVI/HDMI from a DVI/HDMI DVD Player or HTPC? Will I have a problem just using a DVD Player with HDMI output? I will be running the cables about 30 feet.

Originally posted by Milehigh
I'm using a 5 meter DVI-HDMI cable from a HTPC, no flicker or VB yet, but I've religiously shut off main power to the unit overnight.
This isn't the beginning of a cult, is it? :eek: Some pagan rituals, a sacrifice to the gods, and then clean-up of any splattering that result.

Whatever it takes to keep this beautiful picture I'm getting :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
This isn't the beginning of a cult, is it? :eek: Some pagan rituals, a sacrifice to the gods, and then clean-up of any splattering that result.

Originally posted by TheFerret
With all the talk about vertical banding in the AE700 (not that its in most projectors), I am surprised I have not seen 5, 10 or even 20 new AE700 owners photographically documenting their condition in this thread (i.e. posting pictures) for others' benefit.

And yet ... those of us who have taken digital photos of the AE700U have not turned up VB.

I would never claim people aren't seeing things there are saying they are seeing ... but ... could this be the next "DLP rainbow" issue that we have blown out of proportion?

I'm going to print out this thread and go back and read it all ... and then form a "vertical banding" timeline.
I'll take that data and compile it with some numbers I have been gathering by calling various dealers, Panasonic Tech Support and Engineering personel.
Just a pre-release of what I am seeing so far ...
Over *600* AE700's sold in less than 1 months time ... less than a dozen reports to various tech support groups regarding VB. And from what I can see, all of them that I COULD track .. have been traced back to this thread.

I am wondering, but it seems like we could have created a monster in the vertical banding thing. We'll see ...

And again, I would never claim there isn't VB on an LCD projector ... I am just suspicious if it is anything out of the ordinary or anything that we shouldn't have expected from an LCD machine <$3k.

Well, because we are not allowed to post new AE700 threads we cannot post a dedicated VB thread for this specific product. Bummer.

So looking at the manual scan by TraderGordo, the best resolutions and inputs listed as AA in the manual are :

1) 1920 x 1080i and 1280 x 720p
2) Component (YPbPr) / HDMI / PC (VGA)

Another option that some people do is run RGB through component using a VGA to breakout cable. I guess thats the same as VGA.

If you wanted to use the VGA port but eliminate some of the Digital to Analog back and forth conversions, you could use an SDI player with an iScan HD. You'd have one conversion back and forth if you output via VGA vs HDMI, but that would still be less than running analog inputs into the iScan. Just a thought if people are really set on HDMI but aren't keen about the white flashes.

Has there been any consensus as to which inputs result in the white flashes or is it all inputs?

Speaking about "white flases" it hapend to me, and I've returned the PJ because of that

I have problems with VB too. Now i don't know what do do, I think about getting another PJ, but I'm not shore about the one. Should i try another AE700 or go to the HS20 (more expensive) ...

If you go to the HS20, you might as well go to the HS51. Not a big diff in price.

PC reported basically no VB on the HS51.

reap

Originally posted by ricardofelisbert
Speaking about "white flases" it hapend to me, and I've returned the PJ because of that

Which input were you using (HDMI, PC, Component?)

I was using the HDMI port.

It was a kind of big problem because i have the denon 3910, witch was new too, besides the HDMI cable from Supra.

I've take a long time before discovering in witch equipment was the problem.

Started to test with another cable, then tested the denon with a HS20, and a Pionner Plasma (the EISA award one), but still could be a problem of compatibility ...

Finally last week end I've tested the AE700 with a denon 2910, and the same problem.

Regarding the HS20 vs the HS50 (in Europe is 50), the price in Europe is different. About 50% more the new model, not speaking about the HS20 being a jump in price comparing with the AE700....

All of this is even more difficult because in Europe (EEC) the prices could be very different country to country.

In Portugal the prices are a lot bigger that Germany (cause we have bigger salaries, joking), therefor I have bought the AE700 in Germany, but then you have the problem of service assistance, besides having to pay for mail delivery when you return a product you don't like. Even so it's preferable to buy in Germany.

Originally posted by ricardofelisbert
I was using the HDMI port.

It was a kind of big problem because i have the denon 3910, witch was new too, besides the HDMI cable from Supra.

I've take a long time before discovering in witch equipment was the problem.

Started to test with another cable, then tested the denon with a HS20, and a Pionner Plasma (the EISA award one), but still could be a problem of compatibility ...

Finally last week end I've tested the AE700 with a denon 2910, and the same problem.

You said you have used both "DENON's" 3910 & 2910 and have seen flashes on both........ what is the common denominator here???? Denon! I tested the 2910 against my Bravo D2...... Denon was the problem; and regarding the VB... it appears to be a very small percentage of units that are experiencing this problem.... go ahead try the sony.... you'll be regreting you got it... I've compared quite a few PJ's and quite honestly the 700 can only be beat by the $10k+ PJ's out there.... have patience and work with you retailer perhaps they can replace it... I did and I'm anxiously awaiting the new one by friday! if I still see VB I will also report it so keep checking the thread.

Originally posted by ForzaMilan
You said you have used both "DENON's" 3910 & 2910 and have seen flashes on both........ what is the common denominator here???? Denon! I tested the 2910 against my Bravo D2...... Denon was the problem; and regarding the VB... it appears to be a very small percentage of units that are experiencing this problem.... go ahead try the sony.... you'll be regreting you got it... I've compared quite a few PJ's and quite honestly the 700 can only be beat by the $10k+ PJ's out there.... have patience and work with you retailer perhaps they can replace it... I did and I'm anxiously awaiting the new one by friday! if I still see VB I will also report it so keep checking the thread.
This is based on what source/research? First, the product has been out only 2-3 weeks. Second, AVS is not a representation of the entire market, and only a sample can be drawn--and modified at that. How about a poll at least, or some sort of evidence that one could feel warm and fuzzy for your comment.

Remenber that I've tested the 3910 with the Pioneer plasma and the HS20, for several hours, via HDMI, and nothing.

In the begining I too think was the Denon, but ..... it was AE700, because denon did work fine with others HDMI equipments.

Geeez. I wonder if I should look at the Infocus SP5000, Sanyo Z3 or the "old" Hitachi PJ TX100 instead of the 700... :(

Originally posted by TheFerret
This is based on what source/research? First, the product has been out only 2-3 weeks. Second, AVS is not a representation of the entire market, and only a sample can be drawn--and modified at that. How about a poll at least, or some sort of evidence that one could feel warm and fuzzy for your comment.

Ferret,
This is a very easy conclusion to make.
Unless there are some other people out there who had alterior motives to diss the AE700?

Panasonic themselves (their Tech Support group) have clearly identified that they are (as a group) not aware of a VB problem on the unit.

Could they be aware of VB? Maybe. But are they aware of a PROBLEM? No.

As I mentioned earlier ... call around to some dealers ... hundreds of these units have shipped. There are no dealers that I have spoken with that have taken more than a couple complaint calls at best.
One dealer I spoke with told me they took ~4-5 complaint calls ... and 2 projectors back for credit ... from over 300 that they sold. Those odds are better than any projector out there. I can guarantee you the percentage of returns on the infamous X1 were more than 4 times that amount.
And the couple of calls they did take ... the Tech Support person I spoke with said in all instances, the caller identified themselves as reading this very thread!

I'll put my neck on the chopping block here and say that VB is NOT a problem/epedemic on the AE700U. Some users have seen it. But it is just like DLP rainbows. Some people can see it, are bothered by it and cannot own a projector that has it. The same can be said of the VB on the AE700 ... or any LCD under $3000 for that matter. It is a subject that has been blown out of proportion ... and become an urban legend. Look for it on Snopes next week ... ;)


*** Edit - case in point in the above post from CPC. Stop the Madness!
AVS Forum IS a significant test group of AE700 owners. Most either don't see it, see it but are smart enough to realize it could be expected from an LCD projector, or don't care to even look.
And yet there are a few that continue to spin posts to make it sound like this projector has some form of major manufacturing/engineering flaw.
When FACT IS ... this AE700U is leagues better than anything you could have purchased for TWICE the money 3 years ago.

I have been following this thread for some time and am about ready to install a front projector, but I sure would like to see one in action. I plan to visit my Son In Albuquerque next week and was wondering whether there is some one in that area who has an AE700 in oparation. If so, Please send me an E-Mail. Thanks!

Originally posted by Ericbres
Panasonic themselves (their Tech Support group) have clearly identified that they are (as a group) not aware of a VB problem on the unit.

Could they be aware of VB? Maybe. But are they aware of a PROBLEM? No.

As I mentioned earlier ... call around to some dealers ... hundreds of these units have shipped. There are no dealers that I have spoken with that have taken more than a couple complaint calls at best.
One dealer I spoke with told me they took ~4-5 complaint calls ... and 2 projectors back for credit ... from over 300 that they sold. Those odds are better than any projector out there. I can guarantee you the percentage of returns on the infamous X1 were more than 4 times that amount.
And the couple of calls they did take ... the Tech Support person I spoke with said in all instances, the caller identified themselves as reading this very thread!


*Clap*Clap*Clap*

Very well said.

No, I have no alterior motives, Eric. When the Sony comes out and the first VB report comes in I'll want to see a vb-poll on it, too. I have no loyalties, here. I'd just be interested in knowing what kind of numbers on AVS would show up.

If I wanted to put down the AE700 I would (when have I been known to hold back?).

Originally posted by reaper
If you go to the HS20, you might as well go to the HS51. Not a big diff in price.

PC reported basically no VB on the HS51.

reap

Most people who have noticed VB on the 700 said it was after some time or after leaving on in standby overnight. I wonder if ProjCentral tested the Sony long enough.

Granted, I am with most in that leaving on in standby should not introduce vb.

Originally posted by Durabolin
I just cant understand the logic from Panasonic here. Why not match it perfectly 1 to 1 with a digital feed of 1280 by 720 ? Surely that is simple. Any desktop lcd i have had seems to manage that without issue. What reasons would they have for not doing so ?

Also, has anyone come up with a logical answer why 720 is called 750 yet ?
I can't believe nobody on AVS has answered this.

Here (http://www.leader.co.jp/english/technic/tech_d3.html) is an example of a site showing why the number 750 shows up in Panny's manual. Just as the NTSC standard actually contains 525 lines with 480 for active video, the ATSC standard has 750 lines with 720 active for video. (1125 total for 1080i material)

My assumption would be (unrelated to the above paragraph) that the problems with missing pixels are because this PJ is directed at home theater usage, not PC usage. So movies and TV are just fine with the customary overscan built into TV signals, whereas a pixel-specific PC has lost pixels. A data PJ would work the other way typically, with its own issues.

Originally posted by TheFerret
No, I have no alterior motives, Eric. When the Sony comes out and the first VB report comes in I'll want to see a vb-poll on it, too. I have no loyalties, here. I'd just be interested in knowing what kind of numbers on AVS would show up.

If I wanted to put down the AE700 I would (when have I been known to hold back?).

Oh man, I am sorry.
I didn't mean to imply you were knocking the unit personally.
I apologize if my post made it sound like that. You, above many else, have been openly critical (in the positive sense) to making sure all the facts are out on the table.

Again, my apologies. I'll edit my post to better make my point.

I wrote a lengthy review of the AE700 early morning, and when I clicked on the "submit reply" button, the forum was down, and lost my work. So here's a condensed version of it.

I just upgraded from the AE300. So far I have seen HD & DVD content. The former is htpc via vga, and latter is Toshiba 3750 via component.

The 'pee-a-boo' problem has definitely been improved. On the AE300 I could easily see it, and especially in certain scenes, such as in the Fifth Element SB, when Lulu first comes onto the balcony using the round opening. On the AE700 at 2X, I CANNOT see any. They are probably still there, I just cannot see it from my normal viewing distance.

I used the same ceiling mount bracket from the AE300, no modifications needed.

The center of the lens is about 13" down from the ceiling, and the top of my picture is also about 13", and I am using almost all of the vertical shift. In this regard, I prefer the AE300. Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of lens shifting. But for me, one of biggest improvement that Panasonic can make to the AE700 is for the lens shifting to start from the top or bottom on the picture, instead of from the center.

I am seeing some distortion. When the top of the picture is perfectly horizontal, and the 2 sides are perfectly vertical, the bottom is not straight. I am not sure if this is due to the extreme vertical shifting or not, since I didn't notice this until after the technician had completed the installation, and I don't want to change anything now. BTW, I am not at extreme wide-angel zoom, nor am I using keystone.

I am using the low-lamp mode with low-speed fan. It is more noisy than the AE300, but it doesn't bother me. The fan does speed up going from desktop mode to ceiling mode.

When I had the AE100 then the AE300, the wow factor with DVDs was impressive, but I find that I have become more discriminating. The AE100/300/700 with DVDs just doesn't look very good. On the other hand, HD content, both 720p and 1080i, on the AE700, does. I had tried HD content on the AE300, and couldn't tell the difference with DVDs.

The single biggest improvement going from the AE300 to AE700 is in the display of HD content. Immediately noticeable. One of the implications is that I can now have a larger image, so I intend to go from 2X to 1.7X. Good HD video content looks sharper than good HD film content, but I don't believe this is an AE700 issue.

The VB has also been improved over the AE300. Whereas before it was distracting, now it is more 'subconscious'. Unfortunately I no longer have the AE300 for a direct comparison.

But what really bugged me in the AE300 was the fixed panel noise. It was like looking through a dirty screen at the image. Now I am beginning to wonder if it is the pattern on the Video Spectra 1.5 screen that is the problem. I am going to try projecting onto a perfectly flat artist board. Does anyone know if the matte screens have texture?

Has anyone compared the difference between the Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5 and the high-contrast matte-white, or the silver-matte?

For my htpc, I have decided to use vga. There seems to be a of of issues with hdmi right now, whereas I know vga works.

The characters in the menu are much smaller than on the AE300, which is useful for fine focusing.

Originally posted by ZoomAir
HI ianken, thats great i have just ordered the panny and i didn't now if i was to go with the DLP:s after reading forums i got the impression that the DLP:s were superior in PQ and Punch in the picture.

so if i understand it right the punch and depth in the Panny 700 isn't far of from that of a DLP in the same price range. meaning that the panny doesn't look terrible side to side against a DLP (for example the toshiba mt200 or the benq 7800) whats your opinion (or anyone else who has seen the panny against a DLP),



does anyone have an opinion, i know that these question's probably have been answered in this thread BUT IT IS ABOUT 131 pages long so i hope someone has a good reply.

thanks in advance

Originally posted by ricardofelisbert
Speaking about "white flases" it hapend to me, and I've returned the PJ because of that

Please tell me about the "white flashes" !!!

I want to make sure this is what I’m experiencing. Can you give me a more detailed description of what it looks like? Is it a “snowy” flash like a tape dropout - or does it have more of a wiggly “loss-of-sync” look to it? Or? How often did it occur? Once a movie? Or several times? Did it affect the whole image? Any pattern to it? HDMI only? Or other inputs as well? Repeatability? Did you check w/Panasonic repair? Any clue?

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Please tell me about the "white flashes" !!!

I want to make sure this is what I’m experiencing. Can you give me a more detailed description of what it looks like? Is it a “snowy” flash like a tape dropout - or does it have more of a wiggly “loss-of-sync” look to it? Or? How often did it occur? Once a movie? Or several times? Did it affect the whole image? Any pattern to it? HDMI only? Or other inputs as well? Repeatability? Did you check w/Panasonic repair? Any clue?

It is a snowy flash like a tape dropout. It lasts for about 1/4 of a second... like a flash of lightening... but just enough that you can see that it's snowy... with some black/white to it. It encompasses the entire image. I haven't reported it to Panasonic or where I bought mine (yet).

Spiky,

While that is interesting about the broadcast resolutions, the question remains; Why does the AE700 cut off pixels where the 500 did not? The 500 did not do this with DVI did it? This issues with HDMI is a drawback which should be fixed by Panasonic asap via firmware. There is no excuse for this.

ABCD,

Good review. If you are wondering if the "dirty" look to your picture is fixed pattern noise or related to your screen material, it is very easy to determine. My guess is that it is fpn. Take your projector while it is projecting an image where you see fpn, perhaps when it is paused on a dvd. Move the projector left or right, or up or down. If its impossible to move, just tweak the lens shift a bit. If its fpn, the pattern should follow the projected picture and you won't see the paused image moving against a "dirty" background.

***************

Just to clarify, I have not decided to eliminate the AE700 from my choices, I just feel that I may want to consider the others too. I'm not panicing from the reports, just disappointed. I had thought the AE700 was the hands-down winner among the Z3, SP5000 and PJ TX100. While it is the best for contrast, I'm thinking some of the issues may make it a good idea to re-consider the others.

Most importantly, I would like to get an update to clarify the white flashes issue:

Are AE700 owners only seeing the "white flashes" only through the HDMI inputs?

Has anyone using the VGA port or component connection seen the white flashes?

thanx

:)

Originally posted by Spiky
I can't believe nobody on AVS has answered this.

Here (http://www.leader.co.jp/english/technic/tech_d3.html) is an example of a site showing why the number 750 shows up in Panny's manual. Just as the NTSC standard actually contains 525 lines with 480 for active video, the ATSC standard has 750 lines with 720 active for video. (1125 total for 1080i material)

My assumption would be (unrelated to the above paragraph) that the problems with missing pixels are because this PJ is directed at home theater usage, not PC usage. So movies and TV are just fine with the customary overscan built into TV signals, whereas a pixel-specific PC has lost pixels. A data PJ would work the other way typically, with its own issues.

We just assumed *everyone* knew the active lines vs total lines bit ;)

But seriously, thanks for the link.

Going back to our collective critique of the AE700-

Ignoring the VB banter, it appears the most significant design and/or quality related issue on the AE700 so far is the implementation of the HDMI port.

The loss of sync (white flashes) appears to be a real issue on the HDMI port.

That's two issues against the HDMI port- the other being the unnecessary cropping of 720p signals over HDMI. I assume this applies to 720p sent from any device and not just a PC (but is more noticible from a PC due to the GUI elements).

Send emails to Panasonic- maybe they could do a running production change and/or firmware update to address te HDMI issues?

And excuses about this projector being for home theater only don't wash. The ATSC standard calls for 720 *active* lines, with 750 total. All *Active* lines ought to be displayed. The non-active lines from 721 through 750 are obviously not displayed, because there are no more than 720 lines on the LCD panels.

Overscanning was a common practice in the analog video age, for good reasons. I just don't think the reasons exist anymore in the digital display era.

Here is an idea. Is it possible for HTPC users to create a custom resolution which would include "bogus" lines of resolution that could be cropped? Useless for upconverting dvd player owners, but I was just curious. I guess you can't re-mask the dvd output to include extra blank lines of vertical resolution.

Although I haven't seen it for myself on the AE700, I know what VB looks like as I've seen it on my 200. I don't imagine Vertical Banding on the 700 is the end of the world. Not enough people are complaining that it is horrible, and those who have it bad should be exchanging those units. Shutting power during standby is a non-issue for me and ideally, others could try to make it possible in their setups.

The HDMI cropping and white flashes are the bigger concern, however; I would be surprised if using VGA looked that bad compared to HDMI, so I'm hoping it is free of the white flashes. VGA is already a cinch to AUTO position the image without cropping. I'd need to settle for scaling the 480p VGA output of my iScan Ultra or upgrade to the iScan HD and use its VGA port. Of course, the HDMI connection could always be used if the white flashes and cropping are solved at a later date. Anyone thinking of using the VGA output of an iScan HD shouldn't worry too much about not being digital. While digital may look cleaner in some instances, don't rule out VGA until you've seen it. Many here with HTPC's are finding VGA looks fine. Also, if you have an iScan HD and are using the VGA and want to eliminate one A/D conversion while waiting for the HDMI issues to clear up, consider using an SDI connection between your DVD and the iScan HD.

Just some idea's for people.

My main concern is that if I purchase via importing and have any of the above problems, I'd have to pay to ship for warranty coverage. I'm hoping the odds of having a serious problem are lower, which would be especially true if Panasonic acknowledges and FIXES some of these issues, such as the HDMI problems.

I still would like to clarify whether the HDMI white flashes are occuring striclty over HDMI or are they happening on VGA/component. It is still possible that they are the fault of the DVD players and not the AE700, but I seem to recall people using HDTV boxes are seeing white flashes? Correct? I still say we need more scientific testing.

Keep trouble shooting your setups people, and remember, if you have a problem, always state your source player and connection method.

:)

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Please tell me about the "white flashes" !!!

I want to make sure this is what I’m experiencing. Can you give me a more detailed description of what it looks like? Is it a “snowy” flash like a tape dropout - or does it have more of a wiggly “loss-of-sync” look to it? Or? How often did it occur? Once a movie? Or several times? Did it affect the whole image? Any pattern to it? HDMI only? Or other inputs as well? Repeatability? Did you check w/Panasonic repair? Any clue? With 50+ hours on my projector, I think I've seen this three times.

What I've seen lasts just fraction of a second, maybe one or a few frames' worth. It is so brief I can't tell if it affects the entire screen or just a portion, nor can I tell what it really is other that just a brief flash of brightness. Duration seems much shorter than a camera flash. If you blink, you miss it. Literally. Truly, it's nearly at the subliminal level.

I'm pretty sure it's only happened with my DirecTV HD receiver, not DVD, though that's also been the majority of our viewing so far. And I think it's happened on both component and HDMI feed. But honestly, it's so rare, I can't be certain.

I have seen the white flashes! (I'm reminded of Belushi in the church from Blues Brothers) This is the thing I'm most concerned about from the AE700. I'm new to home theater and projection, so all the other issues (like VB, etc.) are still new to me, too. Even before playing around with some of the tweaks from the other 700 thread I thought the picture was dazzling, and I'm feeling pretty smug about my projector choice. I love it.

Anyway, I'm running:

Panny AE700
LG LST-3510 DVD/HDTV receiver
DVI-DVI cable plus DVI-HDMI adapter block

Initially, whenever I tried to use the DVD or HDTV signal at any resolution higher than 480, I was seeing snow. (Subjectively, I was seeing the snow as largely pink in color, but close inspection revealed that it was comprised of many, many colors) I assumed it was just a loose connection since the DVI-DVI cable with adapter was pretty cumbersome and seemed to be pulling down on the port on the back of the AE700. I did some creative looping, tucking and zip-tying and was able to get the cord and adapter to be nearly perfectly level with slight pressure pushing the plug into the machine. That resolved the snow issue on resolutions over 480 and allowed me to watch HDTV and upconverted DVD output.

However, now that I'm spending more time sitting down and watching the movies instead of farkling around with settings, pushing buttons, flipping switches and generally playing with my new toys, I've witnessed the "white flash" on several occasions. I can't be certain, but since I fixed the resolution problem I was having, I'm pretty sure that it's been on the 1080i setting from my LG DVD player. I can't remember if the movies I watched in 480p exhibited this "flash" problem since I was too in love with the huge picture (and too busy futzing with stuff) to remember the first evening's movie. I'll make another test tonight on lower resolution settings.

Dirk

Originally posted by ForzaMilan
You said you have used both "DENON's" 3910 & 2910 and have seen flashes on both........ what is the common denominator here???? Denon! I tested the 2910 against my Bravo D2...... Denon was the problem; and regarding the VB... it appears to be a very small percentage of units that are experiencing this problem.... go ahead try the sony.... you'll be regreting you got it... I've compared quite a few PJ's and quite honestly the 700 can only be beat by the $10k+ PJ's out there.... have patience and work with you retailer perhaps they can replace it... I did and I'm anxiously awaiting the new one by friday! if I still see VB I will also report it so keep checking the thread.

Interesting... it does seem like a lot of Denon DVD owners have reported white flashes (including myself, with a DVD-1910). But it's not limited to Denon players, according to posts in this thread.

If the white flashes are not restricted to the AE700's DIGITAL HDMI inputs, then this is a considerably significant problem, and a weird new problem at that. No previous Panasonic (or other PJ) has had this problem. I know I've NEVER seen it on my AE100 or 200.

Originally posted by ZoomAir
does anyone have an opinion, i know that these question's probably have been answered in this thread BUT IT IS ABOUT 131 pages long so i hope someone has a good reply.

thanks in advance

I haven't seen the Panny side by side with a DLP, but a friend of mine has one that cost about 3 times more than I spent on my 700, and in my (unbias !) opinion, the Panny wins outright.

I also saw a DLP demo in a showroom, and once again, the picture was no where near as good. This could be the dealer set up was not too good, but I really do think the 700 is better. I stood up close to the screen in the demo and could count the pixels, but I cant do that on mine.

Sorry nothing more specific, just my gut feeling.

Mark

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
It is a snowy flash like a tape dropout. It lasts for about 1/4 of a second... like a flash of lightening... but just enough that you can see that it's snowy... with some black/white to it. It encompasses the entire image. I haven't reported it to Panasonic or where I bought mine (yet).

My flashes are different. They have more of a "loss-of-sync" look to them. The image de-stabilizes for a fraction of a second. Again - if you blink you would miss it. No repetability or pattern either. I've noticed it on 2 different DVD players each outputting a different signal (component/S-Video). The first 4 movies I played didn't show this "flash" The next 5 movies were a mixed bag. One film showed one flash, another showed 3, another was OK. Another showed 2. One got all the way to the credits before I saw the flash. So my problem may not be the same as others. Not sure what it's about.

I hooked up my new Panny S97S upscaling DVD player to my 700 last night over a 15 ft. HDMI cable. In two hours viewing (beautiful picture!), I saw the dreaded white flash 3 or 4 times.

I'm debating sending this unit back and trying my luck with another...

-tony

They need to get the issues with the HDMI port fixed because sooner than later you will HAVE to use the HDMI input because that's the only way you'll get 1080i and 720p signals because of HDCP down-rezing on analog outputs. Remember, the broadcast flag issue was approved by our wonderful FCC (a bunch of industry tools if I ever saw any).

This is important.

Dan

How many folks with the "white flashes" have Denon players?

Originally posted by HMenke
The AE700 needs either two quick presses of the Off key, or else holding down the Off key for about 1 sec. I wonder if the Pronto is holding it too long, such that it comes back on. That seems to be the case, but the pronto worked fine with the L300u, and it turns off the same way. I tell you, nothing is simple these days.

Originally posted by tbacos
I hooked up my new Panny S97S upscaling DVD player to my 700 last night over a 15 ft. HDMI cable. In two hours viewing (beautiful picture!), I saw the dreaded white flash 3 or 4 times.

I'm debating sending this unit back and trying my luck with another...

-tony

Sending a unit back is the best way to get the manufacturer's attention about possible defects. If we don't send them back, the assumption is that all is fine, as evidenced in ericbres recent posts. At least one member sent his unit back over VB.

Let us know how your dealer handles it.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I've noticed it on 2 different DVD players each outputting a different signal (component/S-Video). The first 4 movies I played didn't show this "flash" The next 5 movies were a mixed bag.

Wow. Flashes even with component and Svideo inputs!?

Am I the only one who has noticed sponsored links slipping into various messages in this thread?
Surely this isn't ok with forum rules. Not to mention that its annoying.

Has my box been sucked into some money grubbing soul sucking alternate capitalist universe?
Oh sorry - that's the one I live in.:)

ted

Originally posted by markbingo
I haven't seen the Panny side by side with a DLP, but a friend of mine has one that cost about 3 times more than I spent on my 700, and in my (unbias !) opinion, the Panny wins outright.

I also saw a DLP demo in a showroom, and once again, the picture was no where near as good. This could be the dealer set up was not too good, but I really do think the 700 is better. I stood up close to the screen in the demo and could count the pixels, but I cant do that on mine.

Sorry nothing more specific, just my gut feeling.

Mark

thanks Mark for your reply, thats great to read after just ordering the panny 700:D (first projector)

so i can draw the conclusion that a DLP in the pannys price range doesn't necessarily have that much of a punchier and deeper picture that i tough after reading the forums etc.

and by comparing the panny 700 against a DLP doesn't necessarily mean that the panny looks all washed out and flat:p

thanks again Mark for your quick reply

Looks like the white flashes aren't restricted to HDMI. I thought they might be digital error correction problems or HDCP issues. I wonder what they are if they are seen on component. Anyone else using VGA or component and seeing the flashes?

Does anybody know about the projector packages dot coms tuesady night insane sales? What do they sell on those nights?

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Please tell me about the "white flashes" !!!

Is it a “snowy” flash like a tape dropout - or does it have more of a wiggly “loss-of-sync” look to it?

John,
In a digital signal loss of synch would result in a complete loss of signal unlike analog which would present the "wiggly" signals you speak of.
At least it does here in Broadcast TV world.

ted

Try turning WSS (Wide Screen Select) off in the OPTIONS menu. The White Flashes look more like the traditional loss of horizontal sync (as some above have noted) than a picture artefact. They might be caused by the projector thinking its source aspect ratio had been changed. On one occasion mine froze up in a wierd, extended White Flash. I had to reset it to fix the problem. Only once, thankfully.

Originally posted by tvted
John,
In a digital signal loss of synch would result in a complete loss of signal unlike analog which would present the "wiggly" signals you speak of.
At least it does here in Broadcast TV world.

ted

To be more specific about what it is I see:
No - I don't have a complete loss of signal - and no snow present. The image just suddenly "jumps." Looks like it has been suddenly "shaken."
That's the best I can describe it. It does it on two different DVD players (Momitsu/Sony 9000) and does it on both component and S-Video. Haven't tried DVI/HDMI yet. I replaced my 500 with the 700. I logged 380 hours on my 500 and never saw anything like this - and no new equipment in the mix to blame this on.

Has it been confirmed that the AE700 has been "flashing" with digital or progressive sources? So far I've read of problems with composite, S-Video, Component and 1080i sources. I would assume the PJ strips source synch and regenerates it for its display in which case this might be where the problem lies.

Also, does this occur after the unit has been on for a while or immediately - thermal?

ted

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Try turning WSS (Wide Screen Select) off in the OPTIONS menu. The White Flashes look more like the traditional loss of horizontal sync (as some above have noted) than a picture artefact. They might be caused by the projector thinking its source aspect ratio had been changed. On one occasion mine froze up in a wierd, extended White Flash. I had to reset it to fix the problem. Only once, thankfully.


I have Wide Screen Select "off" - but thanks for the tip anyways. I've tried everything I could possibly think of.

Put me down for seeing VB after standby mode.
However, my worst gripe would be the lost of HDMI signal whenever I try to switch inputs. It's very hard to get the HDMI signal back after it is lost.
Is there another way to get HDMI to sync back again without a reboot of the source device.

Thanks guys

Originally posted by John Ballentine
To be more specific about what it is I see:
No - I don't have a complete loss of signal - and no snow present. The image just suddenly "jumps." Looks like it has been suddenly "shaken."
That's the best I can describe it. It does it on two different DVD players (Momitsu/Sony 9000) and does it on both component and S-Video. Haven't tried DVI/HDMI yet. I replaced my 500 with the 700. I logged 380 hours on my 500 and never saw anything like this - and no new equipment in the mix to blame this on.

Thanks John. As you describe it it does seem similar to analog synch instability or a problem with video position (blanking width) - here I'm assuming it "jumps" horizontally. Is this true or is it vertically? Its definitely a mystery as its a digital device and synch issues should result in loss of signal. I feel that perhaps it needs to be on a scope.

Definitely a mystery. Is it enough to warrant sending it to service? It would drive me crazy.

ted

We need clarification on the flashes. Some are talking about jumping and others white or snow flashes. Are they the same thing?

I'm also yet to hear any concrete info about whether this flash problem is present when using a component connection. Has this been 100% confirmed yet? If so this is a really serious design flaw and may well deter my purchase :(

After a couple nights with the 700:

45' VGA cable and 45'HDMI/DVI cable from my HTPC with an ATI 9600, TTek2.

I could only get 640x480 res thru the HDMI cable using Powerstrip and the Rage3D utilty. 1280 x 720 would just jump around.

Using 1280x720 thru VGA works flawlessly. Full desktop in WinXP and perfect pixel mapping. Using the ATI software to shift the image horizontally mostly, then using the Auto Setup in the Panny works great. Using this combination allows one to set Hor/Vert with ATI and check with Auto Setup until you get 0 offset seems to me best. The Auto Setup Dot and Phase settings change depending upon what's being projected, but not by much. I'm returning the HDMI cable.

Using Avia and Natural mode with Color Temp 0 yields near perfect color, bright and contrast with TTek default settings. No overscan and perfect geometry.

I have seen no VB and didn't even do the Flicker tweak.

I'm projecting a 100" diag from 14'.

Very happy with the projector.

Pete

After getting a hdmi cable, calibrating and recalibrating, doing the flicker thing, I have a gorgeous picture. No vb or macroblocking with 3910 connected with hdmi at 1080i. No flashes for me either.
HD looks spectacular. I love this thing!
Standard def tv looks so so. I calibrated the s-video port using the dvd player, but it's still not so hot. I think my x1 still looks a bit better for that. Maybe it's just the faroudja for video thing?
I'll have to read the tweaks thread as soon as I can stop watching this thing long enough!

Originally posted by tvted
Thanks John. As you describe it it does seem similar to analog synch instability or a problem with video position (blanking width) - here I'm assuming it "jumps" horizontally. Is this true or is it vertically? Its definitely a mystery as its a digital device and synch issues should result in loss of signal. I feel that perhaps it needs to be on a scope.

Definitely a mystery. Is it enough to warrant sending it to service? It would drive me crazy.

ted

Yes it jumps horizontally. And yes - it's going in for service tomorrow.
I'll let you know what they find.
I'm sure gonna miss it!

My experience with Panny 700 and white flashes:
Around 90 hours of use.
Devices connected: XBOX on component, SAT receiver on SCART (RGB), VCR on composite, Momi V880 dvd player on S-Video, Denon 3910 (DVI Output, 9mt audioquest cable) on HDMI (running PAL DVDs... res 720p/50)

White flashes only on HDMI.... they are snowie... not always with the same intensity... with normal play they occur around 2 times during a 2 hour movie... they occur a lot more after or during pause, when i change to squeeze mode during play... seems really like an "handshake" issue...

curiously i didn't noticed them with momitsu via DVI (it's probably not HDCP)... but i have to test it deeper these days...

Bye,
zan.

P.S. I had open a thread only on white flashes when this thread didn't talk much about them... maybe it's easier to use than this 13x monster thread :D
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4638974#post4638974

I have been following this thread since its inception and have yet to purchase a 700, but will hopefully be doing so within a month or so once I move across the state and settle into the house I am buying. My HT room there will be 20x17. I would mount the 700 on a shelf at one end of the 20' length of the room. I therefore have 3 questions, two of which are slightly OT of the 700 itself, but I want to hear how Panny owners will answer.

1. There has been some talk of a power buy. Is this going to happen or not? Is there anything I can do besides saying I would be in for one to assist the power buy? (I guess that's 2 questions, sorry).

2. How do people decide how big to make their screens? I have read everything from 43" to 120". At 19' (the approx throw dist for my possible future setup) I will be at 94" diag with no zoom. I obviously could make this bigger with zoom. I do not know how far back I will sit yet, I suppose I could put my couch anywhere within that 19' from wall to pj. Is it just personal preference? Do people pick a number at random? Or is it based on figuring that you should sit 2x the height of the picture away from the picture as I have read?

3. People have commented on using BO cloth as well as some screen material found on ebay for a DIY screen. Have any Panny owners used either or compared the two? For those with the BO cloth, is the picture such that you are satisfied and feel you do not need to spend $200+ for a professional screen? I plan on making a DIY screen at this point.

Thanks for any answers and advice. I will be buying one of these (especially if this mysterious white flash phenomenon is fixed) and need all the help I can get as this will be my first front pj.

Originally posted by fcastle
I have been following this thread since its inception and have yet to purchase a 700, but will hopefully be doing so within a month or so once I move across the state and settle into the house I am buying. My HT room there will be 20x17. I would mount the 700 on a shelf at one end of the 20' length of the room. I therefore have 3 questions, two of which are slightly OT of the 700 itself, but I want to hear how Panny owners will answer.

1. There has been some talk of a power buy. Is this going to happen or not? Is there anything I can do besides saying I would be in for one to assist the power buy? (I guess that's 2 questions, sorry).

2. How do people decide how big to make their screens? I have read everything from 43" to 120". At 19' (the approx throw dist for my possible future setup) I will be at 94" diag with no zoom. I obviously could make this bigger with zoom. I do not know how far back I will sit yet, I suppose I could put my couch anywhere within that 19' from wall to pj. Is it just personal preference? Do people pick a number at random? Or is it based on figuring that you should sit 2x the height of the picture away from the picture as I have read?

3. People have commented on using BO cloth as well as some screen material found on ebay for a DIY screen. Have any Panny owners used either or compared the two? For those with the BO cloth, is the picture such that you are satisfied and feel you do not need to spend $200+ for a professional screen? I plan on making a DIY screen at this point.

Thanks for any answers and advice. I will be buying one of these (especially if this mysterious white flash phenomenon is fixed) and need all the help I can get as this will be my first front pj.


1. I don't think anyone knows for sure. If it happens it will happen regardless of how many people have expressed interest.
2. My thoughts are usually the bigger the better. You should probably figure out where your seating will be first. From there you can decide which size would best fit your needs. I went with 1.5 times the screen width equals seating: I sit 13.5 feet back and my screen is just over 9 feet wide (126" diagonal). I have another row at 18' back. With a 20' room, you'll definately want two rows of seating.
3. No idea. I have a Carada BW. I had planned all along on a DIY screen, but since I saved a bunch of money on the projector (was originally considering the HS51) as well as some other equipment, and Carada happened to have a power buy going on last month, I decided to splurge. I didn't want be too much under budget for this project - it just wouldn't look right.




Stew

Originally posted by tsteves
After getting a hdmi cable, calibrating and recalibrating, doing the flicker thing, I have a gorgeous picture.

Just curious - What's you cable length? - never thought I ask that question.;)
I'm wondering about cable length/quality vs. the flashes people have been experiencing.

ted

Originally posted by fcastle

2. How do people decide how big to make their screens?


Personally, I bought a 54x96" sheet of BO cloth and just tacked it up. 54x96 was the most I could fit in my space. Then I was able to fiddle around at my leisure to determine what seemed like a good size.


3. For those with the BO cloth, is the picture such that you are satisfied and feel you do not need to spend $200+ for a professional screen?


I currently have a Da-Lite manual pulldown on order, but if it wasn't for the fact that I needed a retractable screen, I'd probably stick with BO cloth. The tacked-up cloth looks fine to me, as ghetto as it is, with wrinkles and everything. If I didn't need a retractable screen, I'd probably just iron it, stretch it and mask it and call it good.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I've been seeing great color and brightness off the BO cloth. I'm sure a professional screen would probably have better blacks and possibly contrast, but I honestly don't have any problems with the picture I have now.

Originally posted by zanarduz
My experience with Panny 700 and white flashes:
White flashes only on HDMI.... they are snowie... not always with the same intensity... with normal play they occur around 2 times during a 2 hour movie... they occur a lot more after or during pause, when i change to squeeze mode during play... seems really like an "handshake" issue...

curiously i didn't noticed them with momitsu via DVI (it's probably not HDCP)... but i have to test it deeper these days...

Bye,
zan.


HDCP is an interesting thought but I believe some have experienced "flashes" on component with 480 sources which should not require HDCP handshake.

Outside of the HS51 this is a PJ I am interested in purchasing before Christmas and this is the one issue with this unit that troubles me - though I believe it will be fixed - question is when.

ted

My 700 arrived yesterday,

Have about 5 hr. of viewing on it so far. It replaced my old Sharp XV-55U. Feeding it via component and HDMI from a Toshiba DVD (the new one that outputs via the HDMI). I have a dedicated home theater (read completely light controlled) and the unit is shelf mounted (custom glass shelf just below the ceiling mounding) and throwing a 92" image from about 11.5 ft. Screen is a white painted wall with Kills2. See the photo. It's more than just a white painted wall actually!

Well, I'm impressed! It's a stunning image. No SDE, no VB, no white flashes (yet) and sadly no HDTV input. Just the DVD.

Ran the flicker tweak (noticed it does change as the unit warms up) and that's all the changes to the factory settings so far. Like Natural and Cinema 1 modes best depending upon the DVD.

I'll take some shots of the image and post them later on.

I have read this thread in it's entirety and I can say while I appreciate the amount of details given, I think for the average person seeing the 700 in a very dark room, they will think it's just unbelievable..

Here is the front of my theater.

About 45 hours on my bulb..... never any flashes and i have used every input at every possible resolution except for HDMI..... I hope that helps contribute info towards the search for an answer..... On a sour note I will have to call PP tomorrow and ask for a return or service or something.... I have dead pixels like crazy now.... they were not there at first....all in the bottom right hand corner... about 7 of them..... I am guessing that 4 or so make a solid green box....when the color is not black or red.... My 700 exp. has now taken a small turn down :-(

Reply from PP to inquiry about severe VB after overnight standby mode:

It has been determined by Panasonic and Projector People, that this characteristic of this projector does not deem it defective. The banding can be common on LCD projectors and more noticeable for some people than others (sort of like the rainbow effect on DLP projectors). We tested a few units here but the banding was not a problem. If we were to swap the
unit out for you, you would experience the same thing. Thank you for being patient in this matter and please let us know if you have any questions.

What a lame reply. Basically, they are saying that VB is inherent in LCD projectors and should be expected. I don't find that acceptable. If the VB occurs all the time, then I'll take it as being inherent. However, this VB problem occurs after leaving the projector in standby mode. Therefore, it can only be attributed to the standby mode.

Maybe after some time has passed and if enough people complain, then they'll do something.

We should start a poll to track of this and other problems.

Originally posted by HMenke
Reply from PP to inquiry about severe VB after overnight standby mode:

Originally posted by HMenke
Reply from PP to inquiry about severe VB after overnight standby mode:

Reports on the Z3 have suggested that Sanyo has had some success in allowing user level tweaks for the VB issue, perhaps you might ask them to compare the Z3 to the AE 700 since it is the same Epson imager.

ted

Originally posted by fcastle

People have commented on using BO cloth as well as some screen material found on ebay for a DIY screen. Have any Panny owners used either or compared the two? For those with the BO cloth, is the picture such that you are satisfied and feel you do not need to spend $200+ for a professional screen? I plan on making a DIY screen at this point.


I started with a simple $10 sheet of hardboard (Lowes & Home Depot sell it in 4x8 sheets) and painted it with Kilz2 primer. Works great as a DIY screen. So many people talked about BO cloth, that I decided to get some and compare. I covered half my screen with BO cloth, and decided the primered hardboard looked better than the BO cloth (my wife agreed). I know some people paint their BO cloth -- I would imagine doing so would make it better.

Many of us are holding out on buying an expensive screen until the Sony Black Screen hits the market. Its still somewhat of a mystery -- no one seems to know when it will hit the market or how much it will cost. But they have demo models that are 160 inches (that's over 13 feet!). It has been described as a breakthrough in screen technology, and allows for a fantastic picture when ambient light is present, and the best black levels you can get with front projection during any light level (because its the first and only black screen for front projection:
http://www.mavromatic.com/images/sony_black_screen2.jpg
[Typical white or gray screen on left][Sony Black Screen on Right]
Harsh ambient light conditions.

The WSJ wrote about it 5 months ago:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB108742977261939595,00.html?emailf=yes

Originally posted by COEX-Pilot
My 700 arrived yesterday,

I have read this thread in it's entirety and I can say while I appreciate the amount of details given, I think for the average person seeing the 700 in a very dark room, they will think it's just unbelievable..



HI COEX-Pilot, thats the post i have been waiting for:p, i have just ordered my first projector (panny 700). so i don't have alot of experience with different projectors. first i didnt know if i was to chose a DLP in the panny 700 price range because of all the forums i read i got the impression that the DLP has a lot more punch and depth in the picture. but its great to read your post and BTW have you compared the panny to a DLP is it such a significant difference in punch and depth that you might think after reading all the forums.

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

Here is a screen shot of VB after standby mode. I left my AE700 is standby last night and took these photos this morning. This is actually not as bad as the first time it happened, however I have done the flicker tweak so that probably reduces the worst-case effect somewhat.

http://home.insightbb.com/~henry.menke/TS2_planet_VB.jpg

Here is the same file as an attachment.

Zoomed in...

640x480 area cropped from the zoom shot at 1600x1200.

Umm...I don't see any VB in those shots.

Originally posted by bapenguin
Umm...I don't see any VB in those shots.

Umm...you're kidding me. ;)

Especially in the last one, do you not see the alternating pattern of light and dark stripes across the sky and clouds? That is not a digital photo artifact, that is actually visible on the screen more clearly than it even shows in these photos.

HMenke

Thanks for the photos.

I agree with bapenguin. Its kinda hard to see and you have to be looking for it.

With all the hype, I though the effect would be much more severe. Its nothing like that.

No wonder I've not been able to see it on my machine.

Originally posted by ianken
I could not agree more. I've got almost 40 hours on mine in about a week. Which is kinda sad, I know.

I
There are a few issues I have with this unit:

1- The video processor: too many instances of combing on 480i and 1080i material, but the scaling is good and the processing of color is good.
2- Croping of pixels on 720p from a PC via HDMI. No excuse for this.
3- The iris occasionally makes a cliking noise. No biggie but I wonder if it is normal.


Re: (3)

Have any other owners heard noise from the dynamic iris in operation?

If so, how often? Under what cirsumstances (scene types, etc)

Can you describe the sound of the dynamic iris?

Originally posted by bapenguin
Umm...I don't see any VB in those shots.
Stop look as Buzz's hardware and look closely. :D Either that, or you're blind.

Originally posted by JimP
I agree with bapenguin. Its kinda hard to see and you have to be looking for it.

With all the hype, I though the effect would be much more severe. Its nothing like that.

No wonder I've not been able to see it on my machine.

As I said earlier, these shots do not cpture how bad it was the first time it happened (before flicker tweak was applied). The edge definition on the banding was very distinct and the degree of dark-light difference was more pronounced.

Also it is not possible to show the full effect in these photos due to the limted 640x480 resolution and also due to the fact that the photos are taken with the image paused. Under dynamic conditions the banding is even more apparent to the naked eye.

I am not trying to evangelize the board about this topic, however I have seen several statements implying that the VB being reported after standby mode is a fiction perpetrated by overactive imaginations. These photos show otherwise.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Stop look as Buzz's hardware and look closely. :D Either that, or you're blind.

It is more apparent on my monitor if I lean back away from it a bit.

Originally posted by HMenke
Umm...you're kidding me. ;)

Especially in the last one, do you not see the alternating pattern of light and dark stripes across the sky and clouds? That is not a digital photo artifact, that is actually visible on the screen more clearly than it even shows in these photos.

Thanks for the photo post, HMenke.

I agree that VB is there.

These kinds of effects ought to be designed out of LCDs. Unlike the rainbows on DLP's, which are due to the simple physics of a spinning color wheel and non-time-aligned R-G-B color components, VB could easily be eliminated by designing the LCD panels appropriately- i.e clever application of voltage/ current/ polarity applied to the LCD panels over time, or other algorithms or circuit design changes (IANAElectrical Engineer).

To reiterate comments made earlier in the thread, if we don't call the manufacturers on these issues, there will be no motivation to make their products better. Improving these issues in the next generation (or through a firmware fix on current units) means a better product from the manufacturer, and an incentive to upgrade on our parts, which means more profits for the vendors. A win-win.

That said, is everyone sensitive to this level of VB? Nope.

Further, I don't doubt the reports of those who claim to have no perceivable VB. This could be attributed to sensitivity variations among owners and/or variation in VB severity among AE700's shipped so far. Some units may have minimal to no VB, while other units have VB to a degree perceivable by some owners.

See the long HK630 thread I started in December 2003 concerning audio dropouts n the Audio/receivers forum. First there was denial. Then accusations of being too picky. Even HK claimed that the sudio dropout was "normal" and "not a defect" (sound familiar?) Finally, there was acceptance and HK admitting a design issue and developing a firmware fix.

The same pattern happens all the time. It's a normal human response.

Try this one on for size.


http://home.insightbb.com/~henry.menke/TS2_sky_VB.jpg

Originally posted by HMenke
It is more apparent on my monitor if I lean back away from it a bit. Oh I see it, and easily so.

Someone playing in photoshop lately? just kidding.

The effect is more obvious in your last example.

I do have to ask the question. If you do the flicker adjustment a couple of times over a span of say 30 hours of usage, is the VB mostly gone??

Jumping to a different subject, I have a learning remote, the MX-700 which is a wonderful remote programmed by your PC. At any rate, I'm having a problem with the HDMI/PC button... when I try to "learn" the IR command, it always sets my MX-700 to where it is switching to PC, and NOT the HDMI connection.

Anyone else have an issue with that, or a possible fix? I'm trying to get macros going to switch between component and hdmi for either my computer display, or cable HD...

Originally posted by ABCD
I wrote a lengthy review of the AE700 early morning, and when I clicked on the "submit reply" button, the forum was down, and lost my work. So here's a condensed version of it.

I just upgraded from the AE300. So far I have seen HD & DVD content. The former is htpc via vga, and latter is Toshiba 3750 via component.

The 'pee-a-boo' problem has definitely been improved. On the AE300 I could easily see it, and especially in certain scenes, such as in the Fifth Element SB, when Lulu first comes onto the balcony using the round opening. On the AE700 at 2X, I CANNOT see any. They are probably still there, I just cannot see it from my normal viewing distance.

I used the same ceiling mount bracket from the AE300, no modifications needed.

The center of the lens is about 13" down from the ceiling, and the top of my picture is also about 13", and I am using almost all of the vertical shift. In this regard, I prefer the AE300. Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of lens shifting. But for me, one of biggest improvement that Panasonic can make to the AE700 is for the lens shifting to start from the top or bottom on the picture, instead of from the center.

I am seeing some distortion. When the top of the picture is perfectly horizontal, and the 2 sides are perfectly vertical, the bottom is not straight. I am not sure if this is due to the extreme vertical shifting or not, since I didn't notice this until after the technician had completed the installation, and I don't want to change anything now. BTW, I am not at extreme wide-angel zoom, nor am I using keystone.

I am using the low-lamp mode with low-speed fan. It is more noisy than the AE300, but it doesn't bother me. The fan does speed up going from desktop mode to ceiling mode.

When I had the AE100 then the AE300, the wow factor with DVDs was impressive, but I find that I have become more discriminating. The AE100/300/700 with DVDs just doesn't look very good. On the other hand, HD content, both 720p and 1080i, on the AE700, does. I had tried HD content on the AE300, and couldn't tell the difference with DVDs.

The single biggest improvement going from the AE300 to AE700 is in the display of HD content. Immediately noticeable. One of the implications is that I can now have a larger image, so I intend to go from 2X to 1.7X. Good HD video content looks sharper than good HD film content, but I don't believe this is an AE700 issue.

The VB has also been improved over the AE300. Whereas before it was distracting, now it is more 'subconscious'. Unfortunately I no longer have the AE300 for a direct comparison.

But what really bugged me in the AE300 was the fixed panel noise. It was like looking through a dirty screen at the image. Now I am beginning to wonder if it is the pattern on the Video Spectra 1.5 screen that is the problem. I am going to try projecting onto a perfectly flat artist board. Does anyone know if the matte screens have texture?

Has anyone compared the difference between the Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5 and the high-contrast matte-white, or the silver-matte?

For my htpc, I have decided to use vga. There seems to be a of of issues with hdmi right now, whereas I know vga works.

The characters in the menu are much smaller than on the AE300, which is useful for fine focusing.

Thank you for the fine review. I too own a 300 so it's nice to hear what you thought was improved and not improved.

One way to tell if FPN is due to the screen or projector is to shake the projector slightly while watching a scene with VB or FPN. If the pattern moves you know the culprit.

Well, I'm out here. The VB banding problem is real people. I have been told that some are much more sensitive to it just like DLP rainbows and understand that this could be the case. I guess I am much more sensitive to it. Funny thing is, I have never seen a DLP rainbow and I have tried. I just couldn't stand the idea of having to turn the PJ off at the mains. Although not a real hassle, this tells me the PJ has a design flaw and this really irks me . My PJ for one, was much worse after leaving it on standby versus cutting the power. I checked it numerous times overnight in the 6 days I have had it. No matter how great a deal it is, the longer I keep it the more I continue to notice the VB. Another issue for me was the white flashes and the lack of sync on the HDMI. I did have white flashes on DVD and HD proabably 2-3 times each night. These really did not bother me that much. The main issue for me was the sync issues I had with my Hughes HTL-HD. I wanted to run the Hughes on Native so I could let the PJs 3:2 pulldown work on 1080i. Well this was almost impossble because anytime I changed channels from a 1080i source to a 720p source I got a white snowy screen. Sometimes it would then sync and sometimes I was left with the snow. I had to switch back and forth numerous times to get it to sync. This really pushed me over the edge as I had not ever had this problem before on another DVI device I have in the house. Anyway, I am not a troll or trying to bash this PJ. I just want to report the problems I had for others in my situation to read. I was a DLP owner previously and wanted to upgrade my PJ. I looked at other DLPs but thought that LCD had really caught up (which it has in many ways) and I could get comparable performance for much less. Well the performance is good but the quirks are too much for me to handle. These problems may be minor to some and can be overlooked by many because the overall performance but I personally cannot though. Back to my DLP for me.

Eric, was the flicker adjustment in the service menu ineffective in reducing the VB to a point in which it wasn't annoying to the state of selling your unit? Also, if the VB was really terrible (which it is I presume) is the dealer not willing to swap out the unit for one that isn't so pronounced? I did see your ad on Videogon.

Hey, you are in Lawrenceville! Care to bring your pj over to my place for a couple of hours (I have a light-controlled room)? :)

Originally posted by Rgb
VB could easily be eliminated by designing the LCD panels appropriately- i.e clever application of voltage/ current/ polarity applied to the LCD panels over time, or other algorithms or circuit design changes (IANAElectrical Engineer).

I am. I work in IC design. This statement is false. It is quite possible that this is NOT easy to design out.

The effect is probably due to process variation at the chip. I'll try to offer a simple explanation.

The engineer designs a circuit by sizing transistors, placing gates, running wires, etc. The engineer may draw a transistor that is .13uM in length. However, when this device goes to the fabrication process, this transistor may actually be manufactured .14 or .12uM in length. Different ICs could all be skewed one way or another. Or there is even difference on a single IC called OCV or "on chip variation".

It is a very difficult effect to manage because you have transistors that are more powerful on one section of your IC than transistors in another section of you circuit. In tradition IC design, this largely effects clock networks.

A clock network originates from one source and then fans out to a tree like structure of buffers and inverters before finally hitting a flop. This is often simply referred to as a "clock tree". OCV can wreak havoc on your clock tree due to the fact that your timing analysis is based on the idea that all the transistors on the entire tree are sized properly. So, if I place a 2X buffer on the left leg of the clock tree, it should have the same drive strength and speed as a 2X buffer on the right side of the tree. When the transistor length varies, due to OCV, this assumption is not true. This is also especially bad on clock trees due to the fact that clock trees span over a large portion of the chip. OCV may effect transistors that are close together even, but varies more (randomly) as the distance increases typically.

How do we address it? We basically put in a margin to account for the slowest clock tree leg. So, in the end, it makes the entire chip run slower than it might have otherwise... or we have to struggle much harder to meet timing with this margin included.

So, how does all of this relate to VB? Well, merely putting in margin doesn't help in this situation. What you have here is likely a situation similar to a clock tree. You have columns of the chip on one side, in the middle, on the right, etc.

They are likely to have designed an analog circuit to control the brightness to these columns of pixels. Each circuit is drawn to the exact same dimensions. Unfortunately, when it is manufactured, OCV causes the transistors on one side of the chip to be slightly off-sized from the others. Thus, when providing the same control to this analog circuit, the output voltage is not the same.

Anyways, I am not 100% sure this is the cause of VB, but I'd bet it is. And it is not a simple thing to fix. It is a matter of manufacturing tolerances. So, in my opinion they could possibly fix it even on the D4 if they improved manufacturing (which could cost millions of dollars). It could be improved on the D5 by finding some trick to make the analog circuit less susceptible to OCV. Or they could again improve manufacturing. I would guess that Sony may have done one or both of these with the new chip they made.

In the end, it is likely not a simple issue. I meant to write a paragraph about it and LOOk... just LOOK what I did. :( I just wanted to make it known that VB doesn't exist because Panasonic or Epson is lazy and just doesn't feel like fixing an easy problem. It is likely a complex issue that could cost millions of dollars in factory upgrades or a new chip design to address.

reap

Reaper,
I'm aware that what you've stated is quite true (Electronics is a long time hobby of mine), however this does not belie the fact that Z3 owners (and I'm aware there are far fewer out there) seem to be having a measure of success with the user level tweaks for VB. (As I understand it the Panasonic 'Flicker tweak" was not specifically designed for VB but for peek a boo. Vb impact was a byproduct.) So perhaps the manufacturers should be providing user level controls that work in a more refined manner since the chip level has potential flaws.

ted

Yes, there may be other ways to tweak this. [I would wonder if the tweaks actually allow the user to adjust supply voltages to the multiple supply pins on the LCD panel.] I agree that projector manufacturers should try to provide tweaks for this at a reasonable cost. [You may be increasing the cost of the unit by requesting tweaks such as this. For instance, tweaking the supply pins on the lcd may require several user controllable variable power supplies. That could add cost.]

Anyway, I think there are likely lots of way to help it or tweak it a bit. But the inherent cause of the problem is probably not easy to eliminate altogether.

reaper

Originally posted by JimP
I do have to ask the question. If you do the flicker adjustment a couple of times over a span of say 30 hours of usage, is the VB mostly gone??

Yeah, sure, the flicker adjustment helps a lot, as does more break-in and warm-up time. Also shutting off the mains after each use is the most important "fix". I really hated to leave my PJ in standby last night (because I have largely eliminated it with these workarounds) and bring it back again, but I wanted to prove a point that the VB is real and that it is made worse by the standby mode.

Seems like the proof would have been better made if you had taken a before and after screenshot of the exact same scene with the exact amount of warm up time on the projector before taking the shot. Just a single shot with VB included doesn't seem to prove anything to me about the standby power thing. Did I miss something?

reaper

Originally posted by TheFerret
Eric, was the flicker adjustment in the service menu ineffective in reducing the VB to a point in which it wasn't annoying to the state of selling your unit? Also, if the VB was really terrible (which it is I presume) is the dealer not willing to swap out the unit for one that isn't so pronounced? I did see your ad on Videogon.

Hey, you are in Lawrenceville! Care to bring your pj over to my place for a couple of hours (I have a light-controlled room)? :)

Actually UPS just picked it up and its off to its new home. The flicker tweak did help but I could never get it completely eliminated. I experience times when it was really bad after a standy session and times when it wasn't noticeable but eventually after it stayed on standby for a while it would get worse. I have a completely light controlled dedicated theater in my basement so that didn't play into it at all. The dealer offered to swap it but I was afraid I would get more of the same. My Sharp is already back on the mount and warming up.

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
It is a snowy flash like a tape dropout. It lasts for about 1/4 of a second... like a flash of lightening... but just enough that you can see that it's snowy... with some black/white to it. It encompasses the entire image. I haven't reported it to Panasonic or where I bought mine (yet).

Sorry for the delay.

I have mentioned the problem in this forum treat a long ago (maybe in pags 15,16).

But i will tell it again because I'm without PJ now, and I must find a way, even if it is the AE700 again, tehrefor, I would like to know if that problem is with all AE700 or not.

The problem description:

- Only with HDMI
- Appends two times every movie (+ or -)
- the duraction was about 0,1 or 0,2 secs.
- It afected all area (in most of the ocourrences)
- Very much as you describe it.

I think that this problem is not reported often because only a few people use HDMI (in Europe I'm quit shoore, and in US ?)

What would happen if there was a DVI to D4 convertor cable? If there was, I could try to see if this is a HDMI only problem. I get the instability on my picture when I my computer is booting up. It is rather strange for sure. I love the picture I get out of my 700 and I always just put it to standby. I never shut it all the way off. I have yet to see VB in a normal instance. My ps2 produced it, but I have figured it out how to get rid of that problem.

Originally posted by reaper
For instance, tweaking the supply pins on the lcd may require several user controllable variable power supplies. That could add cost.]

Anyway, I think there are likely lots of way to help it or tweak it a bit. But the inherent cause of the problem is probably not easy to eliminate altogether.

reaper

I would bet that the Z3 allows for voltage adjustments and from the reports it would seem reasonable successfully. Looking at the comparative MRSPs it would appear at a reasonable cost as well.

ted

Originally posted by awtryau89
The main issue for me was the sync issues I had with my Hughes HTL-HD. I wanted to run the Hughes on Native so I could let the PJs 3:2 pulldown work on 1080i. Well this was almost impossble because anytime I changed channels from a 1080i source to a 720p source I got a white snowy screen. Sometimes it would then sync and sometimes I was left with the snow. I had to switch back and forth numerous times to get it to sync.

Ditto for me with the Motorola DCT6208 HD cable box. Identical issue.

Agreed... that it affordable.

Is it 100% effective?

Would you still prefer a fix of the root cause of the issue or would that workaround be OK for you and other forum members?

Originally posted by reaper
Seems like the proof would have been better made if you had taken a before and after screenshot of the exact same scene with the exact amount of warm up time on the projector before taking the shot. Just a single shot with VB included doesn't seem to prove anything to me about the standby power thing. Did I miss something?

My intent was to demonstrate the degree of VB apparent after leaving in standby, not the absence of VB without leaving in standby. Before leaving in standby there is really nothing to take a picture of except a normal-looking image without the VB.

Originally posted by reaper
Agreed... that it affordable.

Is it 100% effective?

Would you still prefer a fix of the root cause of the issue or would that workaround be OK for you and other forum members?

Can't say if its perfect - user comments have been good.

As far as a fix - I believe a fix at the chip level would be the most elegant solution as it would appear transparent to the user, it may also be the most difficult and costly as you so ably pointed out.

As an inveterate tweaker, however, a user level tweak works fine for me and I suspect most of those that read these forums. Since perception is an element of this (and many artifacts) I would think that to those who do not have the inclination to seek out sites such as this it may already be transparent.

ted

HMenke - thanks for the screenshots. I think they help put the VB issue in perspective for potential AE700 buyers. Although you can definitely see VB in your screenshots if you try hard and know what you're looking for, they are not nearly as severe as some people would be led to believe by reading this mammoth thread. If I had never owned a projector and was thinking about purchasing the 700, after reading some of the posts about the 700's VB problem I would have had a mental image of watching a movie through prison bars. Instead, the problem is so minor that in order for us to see it you have to:

1) create the condition in which it can occur by intentionally leaving your projector in standby overnight
2) pause a movie at the worst possible moment that you can find (I'm assuming you were intentionally looking for a scene that exhibited noticeable VB)
3) snap a picture and then crop and zoom the worst part of the frame to an extreme close-up

And even then, I'd wager that the vast majority of casual viewers looking at the photo wouldn't even be able to identify this "major" flaw that we are all gnashing our teeth over.

Don't get me wrong. I see the VB too, and I would love for the projector to be completely free of it as much as anyone would. However, I think we need to keep this in perspective and not forget that, in my opinion, we're talking about a projector that is delivering phenomenal price-performance overall when compared to virtually anything else on the market.

If you try hard enough (with any product, person, situation in life, etc.) you will always be able to find something to be unhappy with. On my L300U, I didn't have to try very hard to find problems, including VB that was 500% more noticable than the 700's.

With my AE700, I just don't consider VB to be an issue any longer.

-tony

p.s. Now just to prove that I am enough of a critic to belong in this forum: I'd be completely happy with my 700 if I could just get rid of the HDMI "white flash" problem... :-)

Ahh, OK Hmenke.

***** OK all of us 700 owners need to be made aware of the fact that Panasonic considers the VB issue just a part of owning their product; as I had posted earlier my vendor was trying to swap the unit... upon receipt of my projector tech support checked it and did find the presence of VB on it; however the manufacturer has made it very clear that the VB problem is just a something we all have to live with; just like DLP owners have to live with the Raimbow....whether that is something that ditracts from the ownership experience of this unit; that is entirely up to you! I firmly believe in the purpose of forums such as this where consumers can voice and share their experience and hopefully help manufacturers in finding improvements to their products. Personally I feel a tad screewed at knowing that apparently there is not a true fix to the problem and that Panasonic feels that I should just take it!... I'm sorry if this conflicts with the views and opinions of other users... however I feel the need to advice anyone concidering to purchase this unit to "REALLY DO YOUR RESEARCH" and fully realize what ur getting into.

Just to inject a reasoned voice of positivity into this thread i will add a few thoughts.

I really dont get the fence sitting as to buy or not buy. Unless the HS51 is on the radar as a viable option, albeit a more expensive one, the 700 is the best price/performance low cost projector solution out there. For myself the HS51 wasnt an option due to placement issues. Shelf mounting just works too well with my room layout and this wasnt possible with the Sony.

Of course the beauty of the shelf install is access to the power switch to eliminate the most minor minor minor VB (extremely minor as shown by the pics in the thread recently). I might add that reading this thread forces me to look for VB in anything i watch :) This forum has caused me to become an obsessive nerd. Thanks guys !!

The rate of change in the product segment is pretty darn rapid and this wont change. My attitude re. this purchase is i will sell it in 18 months when 2nd generation units with D5 panels have dropped in price. I will take a hit selling the 700 but so what. You only live once guys and this isnt a lot of money for even a kid working McDonalds.

A thought on contrast levels. To my untrained eyed the 700 has a similar level of contrast to an Infocus X1 I had installed for a while, which for me is sufficient. I have also come to realize how limiting the actual room itself can be regarding contrast and PQ generally. Like most i have a 'normal' viewing room. Meaning white ceiling, some off-white walls and wood flooring. None of this helps :) Additonally my screen is a simple matt white set up. Even with all these limitations i get a pleasing picture at night when ambient light is fully eliminated. I guess my point is the performance of this projector can be raised significantly by the correct screen and room setup. So for the novices out there really think about the room itself.

Quick list of positives:

- Great remote !!

- Screendoor is a non issue

- Very flexible placement. I dont think some people truly appreciate this. Not only in terms of time saving but $$ saving. No ceiling mount, easier cable running plus much shorter cable runs with a rear shelf mount.

- Very quiet. Noise is a non issue and anyone who says otherwise is either insane or has bionic hearing.

- Menu system. Seems intuitively laid out and works well

- Ability to save adjustments on a per input basis with 3 saved memmory presets per input.

Overall i am content with the purchase. I suspect some here will be fence sitting on the HS51 in about march 2005 after reports on the screendoor circulate more widely accompanied by the incriminating photo evidence. I will have had 5 months of enjoyment by then :)

Vertical Banding is interesting. I've seen it on another projector and it looked like wide vague bands of varying colour brightness and intensity as shown in the pictures in this thread. When I've seen it on my L200 it looks different and has a very specific look to it. It looks like vertical lines of hash marks, like row upon vertical row of " - " signs.

Even though I'm a little sore in the behind I still have to agree with Durabolin; the 700 is a like a cheap date! she may not be perfect buy will serve the pupose.

My opinion is not to discourage the use or purchase of this unit, rather is to educate those with "higher expectations"; you know the kind that date with a view to finding the one you're gonna marry???

I'm gonna milk the 700 for all I can...than when a better one comes around...wham! Bam! thank you mam!

However if "YOU" out there lack the clout to toss $2G's arround every couple of years or your wife won't let ya!!!! "JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH"

You all know the saying...."MEASURE TWICE...CUT ONCE"

Originally posted by tbacos
Instead, the problem is so minor that in order for us to see it you have to:

1) create the condition in which it can occur by intentionally leaving your projector in standby overnight
2) pause a movie at the worst possible moment that you can find (I'm assuming you were intentionally looking for a scene that exhibited noticeable VB)
3) snap a picture and then crop and zoom the worst part of the frame to an extreme close-up

Well, yes, this is true. In order to create the conditions necessary to photograph it effectively at low resolution, I did these things. However, the first time it happened, it wasn't intentional on my part. I was just using the product normally, i.e. left it in standby overnight. And to see this VB in person, you don't need to pause on a revealing scene or zoom in or anything like that. It is just flat there plain as can be.

More response from PP:

Thank you for the pictures. We actually had Bob Sell at our location
today. He is the Service Engineer for Panasonic in the Southeast. He did
reiterate that this is indeed a characteristic of this projector and it
is not defective. Similar to how the screen door effect on Sanyo's is
more noticeable than other manufacturers. As far as the HDMI problems,
we have heard that this can be a direct result of the cables. I tested
an AE700U yesterday with a Bravo D2 with a 2 foot DVI into HDMI cable
and had no problems. I have heard that with a long cable or a poor
quality cable, you will get the "flashes". Please let us know if you
have any questions or concerns.

Im running a 5 metre DVI to HDMI cable from Lindy via a HTPC and have not seen any white flashes at all. Dont get me started on the pixel cropping however :)

I guess that all we can conclude about the white flashes is that they do not occur with a 2 foot cable.

How many of us can get by with a 2 foot cable :rolleyes:

Originally posted by bubbawilly
I guess that all we can conclude about the white flashes is that they do not occur with a 2 foot cable.

How many of us can get by with a 2 foot cable

I asked PP to ask Panasonic for the maximum recommended HDMI cable length that will not cause white flashes or loss of video sync. Also if they try to tell me that my cable is not of sufficiently high quality, I will ask for a loaner "boutique" cable to test that theory.

Does anyone have a "boutique" HDMI cable ($200+ Monster or other) of 5M or longer hooked up that is still experiencing white-flashes?

I got my 5M cable from Pacificcable.com. It was a bargain, but short of shelling out for another more expensive cable elsewhere I have no way to tell if a different cable would solve the problem...

-tony

Originally posted by HMenke
I asked PP to ask Panasonic for the maximum recommended HDMI cable length that will not cause white flashes or loss of video sync. Also if they try to tell me that my cable is not of sufficiently high quality, I will ask for a loaner "boutique" cable to test that theory.

Be sure to keep your findings to yourself ...
The general public around here (especially in the $3500+ side) don't take kindly to the notion that a Monster cable can bring something to the table that you couldn't get from a cable 1/2 it's cost. :rolleyes:

(yes, This post is meant in jest ... sort of :D )

Thanks gents. This should be rather easy to confirm. One could even buy a boutique cable, and return it if that is not the real problem.

Blue Jeans Cable sells a 15 foot HDMI cable for about $60. That's on the very cheap side of boutique, but it is very high quality made for BJC by AVLink. They have a 30 day return policy. Based on the cost and quality of their cables across the board, I'd be willing to bet this cable is better than Monster or at least as good as BC.

Originally posted by HMenke
I asked PP to ask Panasonic for the maximum recommended HDMI cable length that will not cause white flashes or loss of video sync. Also if they try to tell me that my cable is not of sufficiently high quality, I will ask for a loaner "boutique" cable to test that theory.

Any response from Panasonic better be within the HDMI spec or at best they can claim a quasi HDMI port.:rolleyes:

ted

I have a dumb question about mounting the AE700. Please excuse me if this has been covered before, but I did a quick search thru the 130+ pages and did find the answer.

I've read thru the specs of the AE700, but don't quite understand the mounting possiblitlies. I currently have the AE300 with the center of the lens roughly 5" below the top of the screen. Will this placment work with the 700. If not, how much below the screen do I need to place it? (if it is much more, it will eliminate the AE700 as a possible upgrade). If it will work, will there be any degredation of the picture quality if the lens shift is used at the max?

Thanks,
Jason

HMenke,
Tell PP not to forget to ask Panasonic if the cable has to be cryogenically treated by barefoot voodoo virgins.

Originally posted by bubbawilly
HMenke,
Tell PP not to forget to ask Panasonic if the cable has to be cryogenically treated by barefoot voodoo virgins.

Hey,
That's how I plan to be stored away after after I depart this dimension.:D

ted

Originally posted by jtremble
I have a dumb question about mounting the AE700. Please excuse me if this has been covered before, but I did a quick search thru the 130+ pages and did find the answer.

I've read thru the specs of the AE700, but don't quite understand the mounting possiblitlies. I currently have the AE300 with the center of the lens roughly 5" below the top of the screen. Will this placment work with the 700. If not, how much below the screen do I need to place it? (if it is much more, it will eliminate the AE700 as a possible upgrade). If it will work, will there be any degredation of the picture quality if the lens shift is used at the max?

Thanks,
Jason

One recent poster replaced a 300 with the 700, using his 300 ceiling mount and position. He had to use nearly the maximum lens shift in order to align the image. He stated that the mount bolt patterns were identical.

I would think this to be the case where any 300 was ceiling mounted with the appropriate offset, not requiring keystone correction. Those who had their 300's mounted higher than the offset (slightly above the screen) may not have enough lens shift to work with.

Reply from PP:

Well the length in the cable can vary depending on the strength of the output your using. I know this may not be convenient, but If you could, I would recommend trying one of your sources with a short (3-6ft) cable and see if you are having the same problem. This would be helpful to rule some things out.

I think this comment has some validity. We do know that DVI is less tolerant of long cable runs than pure HDMI. Since I am coming from DVI out on my cable box, signal attenuation could be a factor. I think I will try running 1080i over 25-ft component tonight and see how it goes. It would be inconvenient for me, but I suppose I could also relocate my cable box to the back of the room temporarily to test the excess length theory.

Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a DVI signal booster/repeater?

Originally posted by HMenke
Reply from PP:
Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a DVI signal booster/repeater?

There are. Don't know if its legal to post the link so do a search for Gefen products.

Are you running a DVI cable plus an adaptor or an HDMI cable plus an adaptor?

ted

hi everyone

i have a question about the panny. on cine4home website (a German tuning company) they measured 2018:1 on the panny 700 with perfect colors after a filter tuning. but they only measured about 1800:1 on the infocus 4805 does this mean that the panny after this tuning had a deeper black level or isn't black level directly related to contrast.

and if they measured 2018:1 for the panny and 1800:1 for the 4805 doesn't this figures say that the lcd after this particular tuning is the better projector in terms of contrast which seems to be the strongest argument for getting a dlp:p.

thanks in advance

"We do know that DVI is less tolerant of long cable runs than pure HDMI."

I don't know that. In fact, it can often be the opposite.

Originally posted by ZoomAir
HI COEX-Pilot, thats the post i have been waiting for:p, i have just ordered my first projector (panny 700). so i don't have alot of experience with different projectors. first i didn't know if i was to chose a DLP in the panny 700 price range because of all the forums i read i got the impression that the DLP has a lot more punch and depth in the picture. but its great to read your post and BTW have you compared the panny to a DLP is it such a significant difference in punch and depth that you might think after reading all the forums.

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

I'm happy my post assisted you. I have seen some DLP and other LCD projectors and quite simply the 700 does the job just fine. I know you can probably spend $10,000 and gain some improvement but is it worth it? Not to me.

Now going from my old Sharp to this is a noticeable jump. After all, this unit is 6 years newer technology so I expected a huge improvement.

To me the key is the dark room. No projector can look really good in a high ambient light room. Get a LCD TV! The blackest anything can be is how back the screen it when nothing is projected (expect for new black screen I'm reading about). And it's the back levels that are most important! The whites will take care of themselves and the colors can be adjusted to exactly how you like them.

I'll be interested to hear your impressions. I know you will be happy. BTW, component input from the DVD is the best so far.

Further to rogo's comments re the practial viability of DVI vs. HDMI:
Found here (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/DVIHDMI.php)

Cables are generally not a source of problems, until cable lengths factor into the system. Short cables for RPTV's, Plasma and LCD Displays are not usually a problem for well made DVI and HDMI cables. Longer lengths required for Projector Displays or other applications are a common source of problems. Outputs from many of today’s Set Top Boxes and DVD players that have DVI connectors is considered to be limited to 5 meters (approximately 15 feet) with standard DVI cable design. In the typical Home theater setup the equipment or signal source may be located greater than the recommended 5 meters DVI distances. Projectors are often 14 to 20 feet or more from the signal sources requiring cable lengths of 20 to 30 feet or more. This is a serious problem for cable manufacturers. Small gauge twisted pair TMDS lines have too much accumulated attenuation (among other parameters) to deliver the signal in a condition that the receiver can recover properly. There are now a number of companies offering copper based solutions at more reasonable prices than fiber or other exotic cable solutions. HDMI is designed to perform better over longer lengths, but actual performance constraints are similar to DVI. Currently, booster amplifiers or fiber optic extenders are required for long DVI cable applications, adding hundreds of dollars in additional cost.


ted

zxlr8,

I don't think you can connect DVI to D4 UNLESS you are talking about using an analog signal out of a source with a DVI output which can be switched to analog. I think D4 is analog only like component, RGB VGA etc. Is this correct?

tvted
flashes:
"Just curious - What's you cable length?"
30 feet, but I need a shorter cable. But it works great. No problems. I have a good cable. I do suspect some may have problems with not so good cables.
"some have experienced "flashes" on component with 480 sources which should not require HDCP handshake."
Only flashes I have seen have been during non program material times, using HDMI. Using a DVI-DVI cable with DVI/HDMI adapter. May have seen some using component. Don't remember since it was all between scenes and not a problem. Same here.

VB:
HMenke
Those vb screenshots are pretty much what I was seeing with component input at 480p from a denon 3910 as well. Perfectly.
If you don't see them in the screenshots, you probably haven't calibrated your computer monitor as badly or well as me and him. Or you have a mac with different gamma settings, etc.

My point is, that I had vb at first, even after a cursory calibration. I worked on it a bit more, went to 1080i, an did the flicker tweak. No more vb. Picture is wonderful. Never saw vb on 1080i sources.

Now, if I don't religiously turn off my pj, supposedly, I may have flicker settings reset on me. Bad news. Hopefully a firmware fixable thing. If not, well, it takes about 60 seconds with practice to set. But that's 60 seconds of waf revenge time = 1 hour of pain at least. Not a problem.

tvted: thanks for the post re: limits on DVI cable runs.

I wanted to add that it is amazing how non-robust consumer digital signals seem to be. I am involved in marketing industrial digital products, and we can transmit data reliably over extremely long distances without error. 15 feet is a paltry distance for a digital signal. Most analog signals in industrial environments can go much farther than that.

Originally posted by HMenke
tvted: thanks for the post re: limits on DVI cable runs.

I wanted to add that it is amazing how non-robust consumer digital signals seem to be. I am involved in marketing industrial digital products, and we can transmit data reliably over extremely long distances without error. 15 feet is a paltry distance for a digital signal. Most analog signals in industrial environments can go much farther than that.

Gla d it might have been of some use - without rogo mentioning it I might not have given it second thoughts - accepting it that somehow HDMI is better than DVI - good to know, tain't so all things considered.

If you haven't read the article linked to its worth a read and is published initially by RAM Electronics - a forum sponsor which is nice to know.
Anyway another quote from the article which I feel is pertinent:

One interesting aspect of HDMI is that many companies are bragging about the new capabilities of HDMI to perform well at extreme cable lengths. Many of those are the silicon vendors, while most of the big name high quality bulk cable manufacturers seem to ignore this whole market segment entirely. This is certainly a bonanza for vendors of fiber optic and other solutions to the long transmission dilemma, which are good solutions, but not always a cost competitive solution for consumers.

The result is that the market for lower cost copper (or other metal) DVI/HDMI solutions has become a marketing dominated area much like other "high end" A/V market segments without consideration for overall long-lasting quality of the cables. This will probably not change soon.

Interesting comments.

ted

Originally posted by tsteves
tvted
flashes:
"Just curious - What's you cable length?"
30 feet, but I need a shorter cable. But it works great. No problems. I have a good cable. I do suspect some may have problems with not so good cables.
Thanks,
I do hope that some of those experiencing "flashes" will take an opportunity to change cables if possible to test this out.

Never saw vb on 1080i sources.
How well do you think the AE700 downconverts to 720p and have you compared this to driving it with a 720p signal?

ted

There seem to be some conflicting reports in this thread on whether a better result is acheived by feeding the AE700 a 720p signal, or a 1080i signal.

I honestly can't really see a difference myself - by the time the projector takes its 10 seconds or so to lock into the new signal, my crummy short term memory has lost the minutia of the previous signal's image quality...

Has anyone else had better luck differentiating between the two and settling on one?

-tony

Just got back today from my week out of town and have the following to report:

I turned on the PJ about 2 hours ago after having been in standby since Monday night (4 days). After warming up for about 20 minutes, I put in a DVD and the picture was just as nice as it was on Monday night when I first used it. I watched several clips from different movies (Gladiator, Toy Story II, Pearl Harbor, SW II, Fifth Element) and did not see any VB. Now, this is not to say that VB wasn't there, it's just that I didn't see it. This is my first PJ and I've never seen VB before. After looking at the pictures linked earlier (it took me a second to even notice it on those screen shots), I can concede it's possible I had VB and just wasn't sure what to look for. It's also possible, however, that I have none. If I do have it, it certainly wasn't noticeable to me or my mother (who was over watching with me).

So far this is good news for me, because with my set up it's very hard to shut it off manually. I'd have to climb over some seating, balance on one leg and attempt to reach up to a height of 7.5 feet and shut it off while manuevering my hand into a two inch gap between wall and shelf (all the while not moving the projector).

I'll also add that I have done ZERO calibrations so far. No avia yet, no flicker tweek, no nothing. This was running through component cables, due to the fact that I still can't get my HDMI to work (might be a bad cable, at this point, I don't know - and I'm not sure I'll ever worry about it).

After watching for a couple of hours, I put it back in standby and will turn it back on again tomorrow night and see if anything's changed. Hopefully, tomorrow night I'll get a chance to actually tweak it a bit too.



Stew

It is almost 1am on a Friday night and yet I keep reading this thread.....

I think I need to get a life, or bite the bullet and invest in a projector. Which leads me to my questions -

I have READ all 130+ pages and havent seen much discussion between the Panasonic AE700
and the much applauded Benq8700+. I realize that the 8700+ is DLP and probably about $2,000 more, but if the black levels and shadow detail are much better than the Panny AE700, it is worth it to me. But that is really my question. Are black levels/shadow detail much better?????

I recently viewed the Panny L500U and Sanyo z2 and liked both. I had money in pocket, but couldnt pull the trigger. Why? I brought Zorro and Fast and Furious to test both models was disappointed in the cave and night scenes. Too much detail was missing. My wife said that she preferred our 36 Philips widescreen better. Whoa! If the wife tells me that she would rather watch a movie on the tv rather than on a new projector, it is time to ponder.

Anyway, I was wondering if some of you HT readers would share your thoughts with me.
Does the Panny 700 give much better shadow details than the Panny L500?

How does it compare to the Benq8700? What happened to the faceoff results that Austin-TX promised way back in the thread??? I would really love to hear from you.

Thanks!!!!

Regular Guy,

I saw the 8700+ and the AE700 side by side today. With both units on, the black levels on the BenQ are slightly better. However, turn the BenQ off and the AE700 looked very good, even when trying to ignore the price difference. PQ was comparable and bright mode allowed the AE700 to be viewed in a room with lights on, as long as they did not shine on or near screen. I thought the AE700 had a smoother picture to it while the 8700 was a bit punchier.

I was hunting for the 8700 and will now have to give serious consideration to the Panny. I did not perceive the black levels on the AE700 to be a detriment.

Good luck in your search!

After over 70 hours with this baby, I am still a satisfied owner.

Happy with:
1. Good film-like image quality
2. No visible screen-door
3. VB is barely visible and only can be found in less than 5% of time in most movies.
4. Plenty of colour tweaks option (too many?.. still can't stop trying to achieve optimum color halfway through a movie)

However these are some minor gripes that I wished were taken care of in the design:

1. Colour uniformity - pinkish corner (I personally find this more irkish than the VB on my set)
2. Limited lens shift & dodgy stick adjustment (switching between 2.35:1 & 16:9 movies for maximum fit on my screen always require some lens shifting, so it bothers me that this panny's lens shifting isn't smooth enough)

All in all, I have not regrets with the purchase (considering the cheap deal I got over the Internet).

Also, took some trouble to compile a couple of shots of my current setup to share with everyone (you need to unzip to view the flash file). I've intentionally turned on some ambient light in the shots to show how this panny performs in a harsh environment. (The TV shown btw, is a 34" toshiba which I have been using for 3 years, and still using it for regular TV programmes)

Equipment used:
Onkyo DR2000 DVD-receiver combo
Component input
MDF painted with screen-goo digital grey paint (had watched the panny on my matt white painted MDF prior to applying the Goo, and I think the Goo Digital Grey is a good match, helping improve the blacks of this panny.)

Setting used:
Normal mode (I find to be the highest contrast setting w/o the over-sharpening effect of the Dynamic mode)
Color -1
Low gamma +3 (I find this helps to bring out shadow details without losing black levels)
Blue & green color levels at about -3 to -5 (still trying to find the best level by eye).

Btw, I live in Singapore & this is my first true HT projector.

Originally posted by COEX-Pilot
BTW, component input from the DVD is the best so far.

hi again COEX-Pilot and again thanks for the reply

i also ordered the panny dvd-s97 so that i could hook it up via HDMI, but that doesn't matter because my old dvd didn't have component so a upgrade was necessary to obtain the best PQ:p

"I was hunting for the 8700 and will now have to give serious consideration to the Panny. I did not perceive the black levels on the AE700 to be a detriment."

Tommyb3,

Thanks for your reply. It is nice to know that I am not the only person out there who is tossed up between buying the ae700 or spending the extra cash on the 8700. By the way, my viewing will be predominantly DVD at night, as HD tv is still a few years away for us here in Brazil. But on the bright side, we do have Carnaval and soccer.

The way I figure it, I have already invested substantial $$$ in speakers, receiver, and room (acoustic foaming). If the shadow detail in the ae700 under darkened room conditions is not up to par, I would pay the extra cash on the 8700. My greatest fear is to fork out $$$ on a projector and then for the wife to say, ''Why cant we watch the movie on the tv instead??"

Living in S. America and I cannot evaluate either of these projectors. Fortunately, I do have access to informed opinions like yours, and that of Projector Central.

Best regards,
Regular Guy

Originally posted by awtryau89
The VB banding problem is real people. I have been told that some are much more sensitive to it just like DLP rainbows and understand that this could be the case. ... I have never seen a DLP rainbow and I have tried.... Anyway, I am not a troll or trying to bash this PJ. I just want to report the problems I had for others in my situation to read. I was a DLP owner previously and wanted to upgrade my PJ. I looked at other DLPs but thought that LCD had really caught up (which it has in many ways) and I could get comparable performance for much less.

Ditto for me, but I'm keeping the Panny. I need a projector that can do a 100" image from 21 feet (it will be in a separate room with a projection port).

At first I thought this whole VB thing was a nerd issue, but seeing it first hand I don't think it would pass the "mom test"
(http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3307430)

I've been to the tweak thread and I will try some of the solutions listed there.

Originally posted by AVGadgetBoy
After over 70 hours with this baby, I am still a satisfied owner
4. Plenty of colour tweaks option (too many?.. still can't stop trying to achieve optimum color halfway through a movie)


Is this not the truth!!


On my unit with just about any of the most used modes ( natural and cinema1) I find the color strength too strong. I usually back that one setting off about 5 points to -5. That makes the blacks really nice and gives very natural color to the image. I have to get a calibration disc and ultimately set the unit up properly.

I'm a CSI nut and watching the DVD's of CSI (Las Vegas) on this unit it almost appears HD.

A note to ZoomAir. One thing this unit does is show the DVD image as best as it can be shown. By this I mean the resolution of the DVD transfer, the quality of the transfer etc. will become the limiting factor and not the projector. Make sure you watch something that you are very familiar with in order not to judge the 700 when most of the fault lies within the DVD. I'm sure our HDTV users and attest to this.

I'm actually thinking now of getting HDTV of some sort due to this projector and I never watch TV at all!

(photo is of the new pany and the old Sharp set up during testing. The Pany is now on the shelf :) )

COEX-Pilot

HD on this projector is very nice.

Go for it.

Originally posted by COEX-Pilot
Is this not the truth!!


A note to ZoomAir. One thing this unit does is show the DVD image as best as it can be shown. By this I mean the resolution of the DVD transfer, the quality of the transfer etc. will become the limiting factor and not the projector. Make sure you watch something that you are very familiar with in order not to judge the 700 when most of the fault lies within the DVD. I'm sure our HDTV users and attest to this.

I'm actually thinking now of getting HDTV of some sort due to this projector and I never watch TV at all!

(photo is of the new pany and the old Sharp set up during testing. The Pany is now on the shelf :) )

I completely agree with this assessment although my DVD player an aged Denon 1500 is hardly worth comparison to all your scaler DVDs out there.

I had picked up Private Ryan on DVD just a couple of weeks back. Sat down with the projector to watch it and enjoyed it very much. I was as moved as the first time I saw it in the theater. On Veterans Day they showed it on ABC and it was in high definition. I didn't do a comparison during commercial breaks but the HD quality was tremendous.

I think the evaluation of this unit should be considered in this light. Since I have Cablevision in the Northeast, we are getting a solid amount of HD. It is incredible to see movies, football, basketball, soccer and music specials on so many stations now. Sadly, I know many folks don't have that option yet, but to really see what this projector is capable of, you need to see HD programming, not just DVD.

As to all the speculation on digital cables, I'm running a standard 3 foot DVI to HDMI. I've seen four flashes in an hour and then only one or two over a whole evening. It is very quick and doesn't bother me but I wish we knew its origins.

I've had my Panny for a week now and am enjoying it thoroughly. The luxury of a 92" diagonal screen far exceeds any of the limitations this pj may have. (I haven't noticed VB, I've had the white flashes on occasion on HDMI through the cable supplied by my HDTivo unit (HDMI - HDMI)...I think it's about a 6' length, I keep it on standby which is easy for me to do). From what I'm reading here, the ae700 provides a quality comparable to pjs that would cost much more to get into.

I would concur with those who have said HD material is fantastic. We have a HD Panny tube 34x50 and have watched HD material for the past four years. Yes, the blacks are not as dark on the pj, but my wife and I have often commented that the shows many times looked too dark on the 34". I have calibrated the Panny tube with AVIA and checked it several times....I believe it is just the way things look in HD at times. On the AE700 we don't feel like things are "too dark" but much more natural. (Our room is very dark, though the ceiling, which is low, is painted egg shell). The quality with which this projector produces HD is as good, IMO, as what we were seeing on the 34" diagonal (in terms of color, sharpness in detail, etc.) ...and that is saying something.

On the DVD side, often on the 34" you could barely tell the difference between HD and DVDs, depending on the particular disc. With the projector, I have to say there is no comparison between the DVDs and HD material. DVDs don't even come close to HD, though we still enjoy watching at the 92" screen size. This projectors strength is surely HD material. DVDs, depending on the source material, are not as sharp, have various artifacts, and need color tweaking from disc to disc...at least that's been our experience. One may have too much color, the next one looks washed out. But again, I will push a few buttons and tweak a few settings for the movie theater-like experience. In fact, I've never been to a movie theater that could pass the quality control demands of the guys and gals on this forum....when have you ever seen good blacks down at United Artist Theaters???? LOL

I am now considering an upconverting DVD player like the Panny S97S. I am just not sure that it would give me that much better viewing quality than we now have. My present setup is running through a Sony NS999ES with component through monster HD component cables with a 3.3' length.

Anyone out there have the S97S (or other player) and have you seen a noticeable improvement with DVDs? Are you running component or HDMI? Does it get rid of the digital squigglys in certain parts of the movie, particularly when people or objects are in the distance (not sure what it is called, it's like you see when you enlarge a digital photo....evidence of compression?).

Thanks for any feedback,

Bob