Well, what you describe can't be seen in your pics. Take a pic of a white background if you want to show us something we haven't seen before :)

VB is constant for a given power cycle / flicker setting (i.e. the bars aren't moving, they are fixed) but I've never heard of VB showing up purple or green on what should be a white background -- that does sound like something different.

If it is VB, considering you don't keep it in standby, that is really excessive, definitely worthy of sending back. If its some other problem, then its a new defect worthy of sending back (assuming you are sure it isn't the xbox or cables).

p.s. Re-read the flicker tweak description. You missed something that may or may not help.




Originally posted by crueman
Really? VB? I see it even on light whitish areas of games too. No matter what game or what the graphics are it is there....but only in progressive mode from the XBox. Have not seen any even in progressive mode on my DVD player.

I thought VB wasn't constant and wasn't purplish and greenish in color. ???

And I never leave the projector in standby. Always flip off the switch in the back after the bulb cool down process.

Oh and I've also done the flicker tweak. Blue and Red were perfectly fine and green I adjusted one number up.

Originally posted by tvted
Someone has - earlier in the thread.
Have you driven the HDMI port with 1280 x 720 - again as per earlier in the thread (sorry no time to look) it was speculated that this might be a scaler problem and driving the port with 1:1 is a solution as it bypasses the scaler. Is your player upscaling?

My source is a Motorola 6208 HD cable box with DVI out. I can set it to 1080i or 720p. It looks soft in 720p so I have been using 1080i. Are you saying that 720p would be 1:1 1280x720?

crueman, those pictures are way too dark for me to see anything.

Well, received my 700 a week ago. VB out of the box was severe and there was lots of peekaboo scan lines. Did the flicker tweak and seems to have completely eliminated VB and nearly all peekabo scan lines, even when leaving the projector on standby. My flicker tweak numbers were lower in the range than have generally been posted. I was able to get a very "solid" look to green as well.

Have not seen any stuck or dead pixels yet. The only thing than I have seen is a little panel misalignment. Red is two pixels down and one pixel the the left. Blue is one pixel to the left and one up. From any reasonable distance is difficult to see. Anyone have an opinion as to whether this is a warranty item worth pursuing or will it not make a noticeable difference?

What does the dynamic iris really do? I can't see much of a difference.

in theory it should change your projector from a high lumen projector in bright scenes to a low lumen projector in dark scenes

I have just passed the "wife acceptance factor". Excerpt from letter to in-laws:

>The home theater is really very awesome. He has been so patient in the building of it, and now it is GREAT! It is very impressive, he purchased the correct thing with that projector. Takes up no space and the screen is really neat. I just ordered him some DVD's for Christmas. Wait until you two see it, it is just like being at the theater!

For all of you out there working on spousal approval for purchase of the AE700, keep hope alive! :D

crueman, I can see the stripes in your photos. Looks a lot like the common VB we have been seeing with standby mode. However I have never seen it that bad in a dark scene. Usually on mine it is more obvious in light scenes.

that sounds more like WGF (wife gloating factor)

I received my projector a couple days ago and overall no evident problems other than the following: Hooking up the DTC100 to projector via VGA/RGB, and the HD picture will appear for a brief few seconds and then the projector reverts back to the blank PC screen. I guess maybe the RCA100 receiver and projector are not compatible. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I also hooked up the S-Video from receiver to projector and the display works fine with this hookup. On the high definition part, I went into menu on the 100 tried each one of the retracement configurations separately without success. There are three retracement options on the DTC100, so I believe the software is up-to-date. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Bill

Well I have to rejoice for the first real serious time after getting this projector. I do not know what I did , but I have a nearly complete picture via HDMI from my computer. There is no discernable loss of pixels on the desktop. I love it. I was watching attack of the clones that was in HD last night. I know it is an illegal file, but it is AWESOME!!!! Download it as soon as you can. It is a torrent. That is all I am going to say so do not pm me about it's whereabouts.
I finally found a setting using the video setting with the bright down to -7 where it looked a lot like my crt in contrast. I also upped my contrast a couple notches. I was immersed in this world. I do not know why it looks so good, but it definitely looks better than Dish HDTV. I have xlobby working on my pocketpc and the HTPC so I have the whole Star Wars set except the third episode. I really hope to see more of these upconverts released on the net. I was serously AWESTRUCK!!!! It took 2 days to download, but easily worth it!!!

crueman, Try a different xbox, it is the scaler on the xbox. I know you tried another one earlier, but I get the problem on my PS2@480p but now I only use 480i when I use my old PS2. My xbox does not exhibit this at all. I always leave my 700 in standby as well.

Originally posted by Stew4msu
I'm using the 59avi and have not experienced any flashes, although I'm using component and not HDMI (and only have about 8 hours on the projector). I could not get the HDMI connection to work and have not had a chance to determine if it's a problem with the cable, the projetor or the DVD player. Are you using HDMI between these two?



Stew

No. I don't have the 700 yet, but am planning to buy from the 2nd or 3rd production runs. I'm hoping that most of its software correctable issues will have been addressed by then. For now it's component out from my 59AVi to a Panny 300U.

I asked because a great deal of the HDMI problems reported thus far are from users with Denon players. Early production Denon players are notorious for having bugs, some that can be and are addressed with later firmware updates, and some that cannot. I haven't followed every page, but it still seems too early to conclude whether the HDMI problems are player related, cable related, 700 related, or as another poster indicated, possibly do to the early implementation of HDMI in projectors. I'm thinking the latter. We all know how early technology isn't truly plug 'n play. It usually takes at least a full product generation before even 'standards' are implemented seamlessly.

That's the best pics I could get my dig camera to take w/lights off. I guess I was just thinking that it wasn't VB since it is there all the time. I barely adjusted my flicker settings and pretty much have no flicker...even in the green. Obviously other persons have not had any problems with it running XBox games in progressive mode (with games that support it) so I'm on my own. I plan on playing with the flicker tweak some more. It sure won't hurt the picture I'm getting any more. My brother just purchased one after seeing mine so at least we are going to be able to hook up his in my enviroment and see if my unit is bad.

how long do you guys/girls think it may take for a 2nd production run?

Originally posted by sawmill
I received my projector a couple days ago and overall no evident problems other than the following: Hooking up the DTC100 to projector via VGA/RGB, and the HD picture will appear for a brief few seconds and then the projector reverts back to the blank PC screen. I guess maybe the RCA100 receiver and projector are not compatible. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I also hooked up the S-Video from receiver to projector and the display works fine with this hookup. On the high definition part, I went into menu on the 100 tried each one of the retracement configurations separately without success. There are three retracement options on the DTC100, so I believe the software is up-to-date. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Bill

I also have a DTC100 and am planning to get an AE700.

I can't believe that Panasonic is pulling a Sony on this issue. Sony projectors in the past few years have not worked with the DTC100, either.

I don't get it. Yes, the DTC100 may put out timings that are slightly off standards (at least the 540p mode), but every other projector I've had in my house worked fine with the DTC100. A 1997 vintage Mits XGA, PLV60, current Epson 74c XGA, and a 2001 vintage Infocus XGA LCD's.

I really like my DTC100. It's built like a tank, and it has a free and clear RGB DB15 analog output, which many regard to have best in class video DACs. I only subscribe to analog cable, so the DTC100 has been perfect coupled with my roof antenna for OTA HDTV.

Supposedly, Sony might update the HS51 firmware to be compatible with the DTC100 at release, since even WSR complained about the lack of DTC100 compatibility in their HS51 review!

I hope Panasonic keeps pace with Sony in this regard.

re: DTC100 retrace timing options-

Did you turn off the DTC100 between settings? You must power off and on again for the new retrace timings to take effect.

Does the AE500 work with the DTC100?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Re: Avia calibration (NTSC).

I've had my AE-700 for a few weeks now. Very impressed and happy with it right out of the box. A little tweaking with Color and Hue to get green and red under slightly better control. Carada Brilliant White screen (100" 1.78:1), 11' screen to eyes and projector mount. Moderate ambient light in room from off white walls and beige carpet. Normal setting. Component input.

Anyway, after getting the screen, masking, mount and lighting arranged in my room to the way it's pretty much going to remain for the foreseeable future, I finally settled down last night to do the ultimate tweak (for me) with the current Avia calibration dvd. If the PQ has been this good without Avia, I concluded, how fantasitc will it be when I really get the settings put in place with this disc!

Did the basic video calibrations. Set the Contrast so that the left bar just barely disappeared while the right one was still barely visible, moved the Color and Hue sliders until the vibrating was minimal in those 'saturation' and 'hue' boxes according to instructions, white levels, r, g, and b color squares matching their backgrounds, sharpness level...the whole bit.

Set it all to Memory 1, popped in a couple of DVDs and was ready to be truly blown away with the finished product...

Has to be the UGLIEST picture "quality" I've ever seen on a projector. The black level looks like mud, the flesh tones make everyone look embalmed and sky blue might as well be the inside of a bank vault.

I immediately clicked back to the factory set defaults, slightly tweaked Color and Hue to improve green and red and all is well again.

Is there any chance I totally missed something obvious or did I just get myself a $25 coaster with this Avia disc?

I'm cool with it either way. I just didn't want to give up on the Avia route without mentioning it to the pros here first.

I usually take calibration with a grain of salt...

Originally posted by zxlr8
I usually take calibration with a grain of salt... Meaning what, exactly?

Set it with the calibration disc and then tighten up the contrast a notch or two and any other thing that does not look good to my eye. Not a big difference usually, but enough to satisfy myself with a slightly punchier picture. Most people unfortanately get used to watching a display with a washed out -too bright picture. I am probably one of them who likes it a little punchier, but I still adhere to the Avia Disc as much as I can.

This sounds like you think one can eyeball, with accuracy, color correcting, which I find with difficulty. Of course, the value of accurate colors is an individual thing and some would not care to calibrate at all.

Was looking to post a clearer, brighter pic of the bands I get with XBox in progressive mode. What's the trick to getting a nice clear bright shot with my digital camera. I typically don't enjoy using cameras so I don't mess with modes too much.

No, if you paid attention you would see that sometimes I do not like how it looks after calibrating. I am sorry you care so much about technical accuracy, you lose sight of the enjoyment of it. For me, a slightly punchier picture surpasses the importance of complete technical accuracy.

RGB: Thanks for suggestion of powering RCA DTC100 completely off. No I didn't do that, but will do. Later this afternoon will try again and get back on board to let you know the results.

Bill

I have my AE700 and comcast HD settop box ... Discovery HD and iHD channels looks perfect and awsome ... only some programs
like CSI-Miami indoor shots looks too dark ... I guess more black ... is there any way to change any settings so indoor shots will be not to dark? for same show outdoor shots looks fine. Thanks and advance.

Originally posted by zxlr8
... sometimes I do not like how it looks after calibrating. I am sorry you care so much about technical accuracy, you lose sight of the enjoyment of it. For me, a slightly punchier picture surpasses the importance of complete technical accuracy.

I was just getting caught up on the thread for the day ...
And noticed one of the smartest thing I have seen posted in a while.
Very well said zxlr8.

Nothing derogatory meant to any of my fellow forum members.
Sometimes we need to step back and make sure we are actually enjoying this hobby of ours. Unless, of course, you find the incessant tweaking fun in a masochistic kind of way :D

Originally posted by AnthonyP
that sounds more like WGF (wife gloating factor)

Yeah maybe! After putting up with my obsessions, she's earned it! Sure beats the alternative WRTEF (wife refusal to enjoy factor) :)

RGB: Well, followed your suggestion but sorree to say the high definition picture will appear for about 2 to 3 seconds and projector reverts back to blank pc screen. Very nice picture on S-video, but NOT high definition. Does seem strange that high definition picture appears at all, but guess something there that I don't understand. Maybe Panasonic could remedy via a software upgrade.

Originally posted by hitchfan
Maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Re: Avia calibration (NTSC).


Set it all to Memory 1, popped in a couple of DVDs and was ready to be truly blown away with the finished product...

Has to be the UGLIEST picture "quality" I've ever seen on a projector. The black level looks like mud, the flesh tones make everyone look embalmed and sky blue might as well be the inside of a bank vault.

I immediately clicked back to the factory set defaults, slightly tweaked Color and Hue to improve green and red and all is well again.

Is there any chance I totally missed something obvious or did I just get myself a $25 coaster with this Avia disc?

I'm cool with it either way. I just didn't want to give up on the Avia route without mentioning it to the pros here first.

I have never liked "calibrated" settings per Avia or the THX optimizer on many commercial DVD's.

To me, doing all the things Avia suggests makes many LCD's look drab and washed out. I have seen a PLV60 and AE700 calibrated with these tools, both looking washed out and dull after doing what they say to do with the test patterns.

Perhaps we need LCD front-projector specific calibration patterns? These routines may be intended for CRT's.

It could be I just don't like watching films at D65. I like something higher, like 8000K. Do what looks right to you.

The brand "Panasonic" is not on the list of licensees for Digital Content Protection, LLC but it would be covered under the parent company Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.

http://www.digital-cp.com/list.html

Originally posted by sawmill
RGB: Well, followed your suggestion but sorree to say the high definition picture will appear for about 2 to 3 seconds and projector reverts back to blank pc screen. Very nice picture on S-video, but NOT high definition. Does seem strange that high definition picture appears at all, but guess something there that I don't understand. Maybe Panasonic could remedy via a software upgrade.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd say that Panasonic and Sony are disallowing DTC100 compatibility on purpose, because of its free and open RGB output ;).

<whining on>

It just doesn't make sense. I mentioned all the random projectors I've used with my DTC100- why don't Sony and Panasonic play along?

It makes even less sense when you consider the wide range of resolutions and scan rates the AE700 accepts on the RGB input. Why disallow whatever the scan rate the DTC100 puts out?

<whining off>

In regards to VB with the XBox in 480p, I have seen far more vertical banding on my XBox signal than I have on anything else. I rarely if ever see VB in any TV or movie signals (unless I leave my projector in standby mode--they I have VB galore). But on the XBox 480p signal I do see VB more often, particularly in menu screens with blue backgrounds, or when I am strafing (moving horizontally) in a shooter like Halo. Usually it is so faint that it fails to bother me except in static menus that basically have single color backgrounds.

Rgb
Luckily you have a few memory locations. So you do your avai and/or video essentials, etc, and save them. Then do some "steaming rat" calibrations based off of them and save those as well... Use what you like. My favorite settings seem to evolve.

Well, tonight I debuted the new HT for my wife. Tomorrow night is the grand opening with several family members over. I let my wife pick the movie and she decided on Vertical Limit which we haven't seen in some time. I must say that the picture was absolutely stunning. The new Axiom 7.1 (with SVS) system sounded pretty fantastic too. This is after the PJ had been in standby for 5 days. Last weekend I watched LOTR when my wife was out of town and that picture was great as well (also after being in standby for 4 or 5 days). I don't know if I just got lucky with my particular PJ or what, but I've seen absolutely zero vertical banding (or SD or anything else). I was actually looking for VB whenever I remembered to check and couldn't find any. Needless to say, the wife was very pleased and it was a great evening. I can't wait to show it off more this weekend.



Stew

The only XBox game i've seen slight VB on is FIFA2005. I think it has to do with the fact all the side scrolling GREEN.

This may be and obscure question but I'm using the AE 700 with the Panny S97 player. I tried a nonanamorphic DVD 'Baby Boom' OVER HDMI and switced the S97 to 480p. It looked awful, worst artifacts I've ever seen, multiple ones difficult to describe, ghosting, trailing, video noise etc. Tried every aspect ratio (in 480P) from 4:3 to zoom and they all looked horrible.

Then I switched the DVD to my trusty RP82, which is over comnponent and it looked very nice, even in zoom mode.

Do I conclude that the AE700 doesn't handle nonanamorphic DVDs over HDMI at 480P? I did try it at 1080i and the picture was okay but, of course, it was terribly stretched with no control over aspect ratio.

My old AE500 did handle this film okay over HDMI>DVI.

Originally posted by ahro
This may be and obscure question but I'm using the AE 700 with the Panny S97 player. I tried a nonanamorphic DVD 'Baby Boom' OVER HDMI and switced the S97 to 480p. It looked awful, worst artifacts I've ever seen, multiple ones difficult to describe, ghosting, trailing, video noise etc. Tried every aspect ratio (in 480P) from 4:3 to zoom and they all looked horrible.

Then I switched the DVD to my trusty RP82, which is over comnponent and it looked very nice, even in zoom mode.

Do I conclude that the AE700 doesn't handle nonanamorphic DVDs over HDMI at 480P? I did try it at 1080i and the picture was okay but, of course, it was terribly stretched with no control over aspect ratio.

My old AE500 did handle this film okay over HDMI>DVI.

Given the entirety of this thread, Panasonic *really* needs to go back to the HDMI drawing board...

Do we know enough about the AE-700 now to know whether it is a good
idea to plan to put a Farouja chip in front of the projector? I have seen
enough comment in this thread about various problems like combing
artifacts and peekaboo lines that it would seem like it might help. Is there
anyone that has done any A/B comparisons on this issue (like maybe
trying the projector with and without a Farouja-equipped scalar). Thanks.

milt, are you suggesting their is a weakness in the deinterlacing of 480i, weakness in the scale, or both such that a Faroudja processor would overcome this perceived weakness?

The AE700 is my first projector. The screen arrived Wednesday 58 X 104.
So Wednesday and Thursday nights, I've watched some movies on it.

The screen is a good size, the picture looks remarkably good, the sound system is better than the multiplex's, but something is missing.

Could it be the popcorn????? I hope its not the sticky floors. ;)

Originally posted by broadwayblue
you can get much better prices on HDMI cables from Lindy or RAM or many other retailers.

Originally posted by tvted
Be sure to let us know whether or not there are any flashes when you start using the HDMI port.
ted

BroadwayBlue - Thanks for the recommendations on cable suppliers.

Ted - I've now watched a half dozen DVDs with a 4 meter HDMI cable output from the Sony S975. There have not been any white flashes to report.

Originally posted by rockytopps
Has anyone matched up either the new Sony DVPNS975V or Panny S97 DVD players with the AE700? I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Brian

Brian - I have the Sony S975 on thirty-day preview. Compared component and HDMI output (four meter cables). To my eye, both are equivalent ... that is, no dramatic differences in quality that I can discern.

However, the single digital cable required for HDMI is less cluttered than the three required for component analog. Also noticed that the HDMI appears to display more of the image (when doing paused A-B comparisons) than component. The combination of the S975 connected to the AE700 through HDMI appears to do a good job of scaling, allowing a "plug and play" setup in this instance.

I have been satisfied with Sony thus far (i.e., no dealbreakers), but would be interested in comparisons with the Panny S97. Does it have any known advantages / benefits in comparision with the Sony?

I'm still fence-sitting on this projector. I've never owned a PJ before and I'm a little freaked by some of the stuff that's being said in here...but not TOO freaked. The one big driving factor pushing me toward the Panny is the flexibility of positioning it. Having it on a high shelf on the back wall (~20ft) makes my life SO much easier. It'll also allow me to keep all my cables super-short...definitely under 6 ft, maybe even closer to 3 ft.

Anyway, since there are so many AE700 owners here (and I know nothing about how this or any projector works) I thought I'd ask this here: I'm at the point where my new HT walls are framed and the electrician is coming tomorrow. With all the VB/standby stuff going on, I was thinking of putting in a switch to the projector outlet so I could easily shut it down without climbing up and reaching around behind the PJ. Is this a bad idea? I could put it anywhere I wanted...probably inside my equipment cabinet (directly below the PJ location) so it wouldn't likely get accidentally flipped. What do you guys think?

Use an IR switch. Well, not really. They do exist, but I wouldn't want to place my projector on a circuit with an IR switch.

Anyone know which brand of popcorn taste best with the AE-700?? ;)

I finally bit the bullet and wired mine to a wall switch over the weekend. I'm getting good at this sort of thing -- only took a couple hours :) Probably would take an expert about 30 minutes.

I had a power cord already (its not a proprietary design, they are common with laptops), and cut the end off to wire it to the switch. Works fine. I also added a protector piece over the switch to make it hard to accidentally turn it off while the projector is on, and I added one of those dim glow nightlights that is on when the projector is powered (to remind me to turn off the projector if I'm not using it). The light is not seen here, its plugged into an outlet below the projector just off the floor.



http://www.creationfaq.net/HTPC/switch.jpg
Don't ask about the crazy "we live inside a tree" wall painting (I'm not an electrician or a painter :) but its dark and non-glossy, pretty good for a non-dedicated home theatre room).

What size lens does the AE700 have? Just curious what size filter fits this projector.

Originally posted by TheFerret
milt, are you suggesting their is a weakness in the deinterlacing of 480i, weakness in the scale, or both such that a Faroudja processor would overcome this perceived weakness?

It has been suggested earlier in the thread (or the other one) that it might very well be a problem with the internal scaler in the AE700 (I believe rgb reiterated this), i.e. those that are delivering a 720p signal, thereby bypassing the internal scaler, are not seeing flashes et al.

I asked the question then and I ask it again - is anyone who is delivering 720p to the PJ experiencing these artifacts?

ted

Has anyone played a nonanamorphic DVD over HDMI>HDMI with this projector (480P)? And what kind of player was used?

Thanks

Originally posted by tlink
Ted - I've now watched a half dozen DVDs with a 4 meter HDMI cable output from the Sony S975. There have not been any white flashes to report.

Are you outputting 720p from the player to the PJ or or you using the AE700 's internal scaler?

ted

Originally posted by tlink
I have been satisfied with Sony thus far (i.e., no dealbreakers), but would be interested in comparisons with the Panny S97. Does it have any known advantages / benefits in comparision with the Sony?

Comparisons can be found in the DVD forum - rather long threads there.

ted

Yes I have been sourcing from a brand new Denon 3910 as well. It must said that the only cable I could find in Brussels on a Saturday was a Supra DVI-HDMI, so I am using the DVI output of the 3910.

I have been getting the flashes at about one every half an hour. I was trying a lot of setup changes last night and can't remember seing any flashes. Perhaps I have found a way out. Mind you those were mainly on the 3910. I will have to watch another movie to see anything has really changed.


Originally posted by tvted
It has been suggested earlier in the thread (or the other one) that it might very well be a problem with the internal scaler in the AE700 (I believe rgb reiterated this), i.e. those that are delivering a 720p signal, thereby bypassing the internal scaler, are not seeing flashes et al.

I asked the question then and I ask it again - is anyone who is delivering 720p to the PJ experiencing these artifacts?

ted

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having it on a high shelf on the back wall (~20ft) makes my life SO much easier. It'll also allow me to keep all my cables super-short...definitely under 6 ft, maybe even closer to 3 ft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rog951: I have mine places about 21 ft and it works great ... I did it for the same reason, my all (HDMI etc) cables are now under 6 ft... it is working beautifully ... my screen size is around 14 ft x 9 ft ... PQ is amazing for all HD programs ... I invited some of my friends for Monday night football and they were stunned by looking at PQ .... go for it .. have fun ...

Originally posted by audiomaniac
Yes I have been sourcing from a brand new Denon 3910 as well. It must said that the only cable I could find in Brussels on a Saturday was a Supra DVI-HDMI, so I am using the DVI output of the 3910.

I have been getting the flashes at about one every half an hour. I was trying a lot of setup changes last night and can't remember seing any flashes. Perhaps I have found a way out. Mind you those were mainly on the 3910. I will have to watch another movie to see anything has really changed.

Sorry if this seems monotonous and you are rolling your eyes but are you outputting at 720p from your DENON which would avoid the internal scaler of the AE700? If so you have clarified that it is not the PJ's scaler. - I have seen mention that feeding the PJ 1:1 mapping results in no flashing.

ted

Hi Ted,

I'm sorry that I didn't state it explicitly. YES I am outputting 720 and have been from the start. I have tried 480p and 1080i but they both give a poorer image than 720p out of the 3910. I actually saw the reference to re-scaling in th PJ as well and checked but no, I have had flashes on 720p.


Originally posted by tvted
Sorry if this seems monotonous and you are rolling your eyes but are you outputting at 720p from your DENON which would avoid the internal scaler of the AE700? If so you have clarified that it is not the PJ's scaler. - I have seen mention that feeding the PJ 1:1 mapping results in no flashing.

ted

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Don't ask about the crazy "we live inside a tree" wall painting (I'm not an electrician or a painter :) but its dark and non-glossy, pretty good for a non-dedicated home theatre room). [/B]

Looks great Gordo.

Instead of buying this PJ I'll make my own:

First get a flatbed projector (the one you find in many schools).

Next place a flat screen monitor on top of the projector with the screen facing upward toward the mirror and Voila you have a nice projector that can project up to any resolutions the monitor can handle.

Any comments?

I think you have been reading too much Tom's Hardware.

I have been around PJ used for office use and LCD screens for years. I honestly don't think any old LCD screen you will find lying around will come anywhere close to a proper PJ.

Let me just mention switching speed of the panel and lightspill as to huge problems with this idea. Of course you can get a picture but it will not compare with an AE700 that I feel rather confident of.


Originally posted by aerospace0007
Instead of buying this PJ I'll make my own:

First get a flatbed projector (the one you find in many schools).

Next place a flat screen monitor on top of the projector with the screen facing upward toward the mirror and Voila you have a nice projector that can project up to any resolutions the monitor can handle.

Any comments?

I really wish there was a fix for the white flash problem. I get them like 1 or 2 every hour using HDMI and none using component.
Has anyone gotten any kind of official word on this?

Jordan "AstroCat"

TraderGordo,

Where did you find the protector for the wall plate switch? Believe it or not I have been looking for a protector for mine as well. My switch which controls a light in my attic was already connected to the power outlet (in my attic) that I have my PJ connected to. I have looked at Lowe's and The Home Depot but didn't see anything.
Thanks,
Brian

Originally posted by audiomaniac
Hi Ted,

I'm sorry that I didn't state it explicitly. YES I am outputting 720 and have been from the start. I have tried 480p and 1080i but they both give a poorer image than 720p out of the 3910. I actually saw the reference to re-scaling in th PJ as well and checked but no, I have had flashes on 720p.

Thanks for that - I guess we are left with either cable quality/length or HDMI issues. Troublesome that as that type of random interruption is a true annoyance to me - much like clips and pops on a vinyl LP - though I can live with that more easily. ;)

given your screen name I'm sure you can empathize.:)

ted

Originally posted by dh935
>>>I have mine places about 21 ft and it works great ... I did it for the same reason, my all (HDMI etc) cables are now under 6 ft... it is working beautifully ... my screen size is around 14 ft x 9 ft ... PQ is amazing for all HD programs ... I invited some of my friends for Monday night football and they were stunned by looking at PQ .... go for it .. have fun<<<

Thanks for the info!

Wow. That is one HUGE screen! Man, I only have 7 1/2' ceilings in my HT! :) Anyway, I'm shooting for something like a 100"-110" diagonal screen (16:9) but I plan to project it onto the wall just to see what looks right in the room before purchasing (or building) a screen. Do you think I'd have any trouble scaling back to about 100" or so from 20 ft away?

How are videogames in general on this projector? I know LCD monitors suffer from a "blurry" look from fast motion 60fps games because of LCD refresh rates...I currently own the X1 but would like to upgrade to a higher res native 16x9 PJ and this one sounds like it's in the running (although VB issues kinda scare me). Kinda nervous about switching over to an LCD...

Originally posted by Doc Bass
How are videogames in general on this projector? I know LCD monitors suffer from a "blurry" look from fast motion 60fps games because of LCD refresh rates...I currently own the X1 but would like to upgrade to a higher res native 16x9 PJ and this one sounds like it's in the running (although VB issues kinda scare me). Kinda nervous about switching over to an LCD...

Video Games are GREAT Doc. I'm playing my Xbox on this projector at 116" (widescreen) and it looks fantastic. I have played Burnout 3 on it, which has about as much fast motion as you will find in any game, and it looks great--I don't notice any kind of blurring or motion artifacts at all.

The response time on this projector is MUCH better than the response time from my Dell 20" LCD Monitor. I was using that as a TV temporarily and there was noticable lag in games that required pin-point timing (like kicking field goals in Madden or in golf games). The Panny 700 projector has none of this lag at all. It is a great projector for video games.

I woudn't let the VB stuff scare you. I have found that you definitely need to turn the projector off and not leave it in standby mode, which is a slight pain, but it is not that big of a deal. For me, the slight imperfections in the projector are more than made up for in having a bright, colorful 116" hi-res image!

If VB really scares you, supposedly the Sanyo Z3 projector doesn't have any, but it falls short of the Panny in some other areas like brightness and color reproduction.

Originally posted by rog951
I was thinking of putting in a switch to the projector outlet so I could easily shut it down without climbing up and reaching around behind the PJ. Is this a bad idea? I could put it anywhere I wanted...probably inside my equipment cabinet (directly below the PJ location) so it wouldn't likely get accidentally flipped. What do you guys think?

Just run your projector plug to a power strip. Then you can just turn off the power strip. Of course, you still want to let the projector go through its "cool down" stage before you power it off.

I don't like having to shut the projector off and then come back 5 minutes later to power it down completely, but it is a small price to pay to keep VB away!

Originally posted by sawmill
RGB: Well, followed your suggestion but sorree to say the high definition picture will appear for about 2 to 3 seconds and projector reverts back to blank pc screen. Very nice picture on S-video, but NOT high definition. Does seem strange that high definition picture appears at all, but guess something there that I don't understand. Maybe Panasonic could remedy via a software upgrade.

Thanks for doing the testing and reporting back.

I wonder if putting a VGA-> component transcoder on the DTC100 RGB output and then using the AE700 component input would work. Used transcoders can be had for around $50 on ebay (the RCA VHDC300 at least).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. That is one HUGE screen! Man, I only have 7 1/2' ceilings in my HT! Anyway, Do you think I'd have any trouble scaling back to about 100" or so from 20 ft away?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rog951 : You should not have any problems for 100 to 110". I am projecting
it on my wall. I went to HomeDepot and got Behr Silverscreen 70% + White Opal peraleascnece 30% mixed it well and painted on wall. Before painting
I used sheet rock compound to make wall little smooth and flat. PQ looks great. for big screen you need to have HT room with controled light.

dh935

Does the peraleascnece increase gain?

I'm sending a 1280x720p signal to my projector from a HTPC via a 5 meter DVI-HDMI cable, and I've never seen the flashes. I'm sending a 1080i signal from my Comcast HD cable box via component, and have never seen it there either. So I'm one user that hasn't experienced this problem yet... haven't seen any VB either, though I do turn off main power after use.

As for video games, I'm been playing some America's Army on mine, and the picture is awesome... my only issue is that I normally game with a trackball, and this wireless mouse/keyboard combo, while great for normal usage, is not what I like for gaming. SO, I went out and purchased a USB trackball and USB extender today... that should allow me to virtually shoot people with much better accuracy ;)

Anyone ask panasonic about the flashes yet? I may have seen two or three over quite a number of hours of HDMI, none using component. Maybe an hdcp thing. Maybe I'm just not used to a pj with so much light output. Maybe it's during layer changes, etc. I am waiting on a DVI/HDMI cable box, so no experience there. Before it was made an issue, I doubt I would have thought it was the pj's fault. I still have no idea. To me, if I had to guess it's hdcp related.

TraderGordo,

Thanks for the pic of your projector set up. Is that shelf unit DIY or did you buy it pre-fab somewhere?

That's exactly what I'm looking for but the usual retailers' pre-fab supply aren't deep enough or are way to wide. That one looks just right for my set up. too.

If that is a pre-fab shelf unit, where did you buy it?

I just posted my AE700 screen selection criteria here AE700 screen selection (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453026&pagenumber=4)

So I don't have to read this whole thread guy's........

Concisely if you can, maybe one or two of you can tell me what the found faults of this projector are so far.

Thanks

In powerstrip. Tell me what is right to use of these predefined resolutions:

1. 1280*720p Hdtv standard
2. 1280*720p DVI/HDCP derived
3. 1280*720p LCD
4. 1280*720p SONY GWIII
5. 1280*720i Hdtv derived (interlaced)
6. 1280*720p 60 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)
7. 1280*720p 50 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)

A lot of choises. The sony resolution looks interesting. If i could get the monitor driver for that one, i will probaly be able to set the resolutin to 1920*1080.

But what do you guys think?

Originally posted by JimmyR
So I don't have to read this whole thread guy's........

Concisely if you can, maybe one or two of you can tell me what the found faults of this projector are so far.

Thanks
Has hot-white flashes just like an aging women. :rolleyes:

I have a couple of more questions regarding the 700. I'm upgrading from the 300 and so far (3 hrs) I am kind of underwhelmed. The image does look smoother (greater resolution), but I've got a handful of concerns.

1. Contrast - the contrast only seems marginally better than the 300. I made sure that the dynamic iris is on, but is there anything else I should check? Maybe I expected too much, but after the rave reviews, I expected more.

2. Fan Noise - maybe its my imagination, but the fan on the 700 seems louder than the 300 (both on low power mode). Anyone else notice this?

3. Image Size - here's the really weird one. When I am viewing a DVD via component, the image fills the entire screen. When I switch to HDMI (from same DVD player), there is a unused portion on the right and bottom of the screen - what is going on here? Is this normal or is there something wrong with this machine?

Thanks for any help you can provide,
Jason

"I am kind of underwhelmed"

The AE700 really excells with HD content, but even DVDs are improved. As an example, put in the Knotting Hill DVD, and go to the 2nd last chapter (where he enters the press conference). On the AE300 everything looks good. But on the AE700 you can see defects in the source material, for example, speckles come and go.

The improvement in contrast isn't obvious at first, but I find it does make it a more satisfying experience. But most importantly, both the peek-a-boo scan lines and vertical banding are lessened (though they are still present).

A new projector review has just been posted at ProjectorCentral.com:

Comments on High Contrast LCD Projectors http://www.projectorcentral.com/high_contrast_LCD_projectors.htm

The AE700 is the benchmark by which all the others are compared.

Interesting info from the PC article:

* They measured light output at 300 lumens on the AE700

* Measured light output on the HS51 may be faulty due to a bad bulb

Man, you don't know how happy that makes me :)

How do they measure light output such that they come up with 300 lumens??

They put the thing in the mode that they believe is good for watching movies and do their tweaking. Then they take their measurements. Manufacturers spec the projectors out at the brightest possible mode the projector offers. That mode is usually not the best looking mode for video... ie the video mode on the AE700.

Originally posted by bubbawilly
Anyone suffer from flashes using a Pioneer Elite 59AVi (or another country's equivalent)?

Yes I did a search, which was useless, so the question is not "useless." :confused:

The only thing approaching useless here is a 148 page thread. ;)

bubbawilly

Sorry for the slow response, and hopefully someone else has responded by now, but yes, I do get the occasional white flash through the HDMI output on my Pioneer Elite DV 59AVi. I've read where if the source is set to 720P white flashes are eliminated but this is not the case in my system. I have both my DirecTV DTC 210 and the 59AVi set to output 720P and use a Geffin HDMI switch and see occasional white flashes from both sources. I recently experimented by swapping a Monster 6 meter (20 Ft)HDMI cable with a really cheep ($14.95) no name 15 Ft HDMI cable and would say there is no real difference. In other words, the random flashes still occur at a rate of once every hour or two. Before I had the Gefen switch the 59AVi was connected directly to the 700 via the Monster HDMI cable, and the random flashes were present then as well. While I'm not pleased about it, the flashes are so brief and relatively infrequent, its not as big a deal as one might be lead to believe. I'd rather have the odd flash than consistent vertical banding which indeed is greatly reduced by turning the power off at the mains. (I was sure the power off tweak was pure snake oil, but boy was I wrong.) Otherwise, after nearly 200 hours I remain exceptionally happy with the 700. I find it to be a device that is extremely revealing of the quality of the source. its easy to tell the difference between well mastered film and video, and less than pristine material.

John

John, you are racking up those hours! You and the wife been entertaining a lot?

I haven't paid attention to this, but what is the estimated life of a bulb? Seems to me I checked on the Panasonic web site, and replacement bulbs were around $200...

Originally posted by Milehigh
I haven't paid attention to this, but what is the estimated life of a bulb? Seems to me I checked on the Panasonic web site, and replacement bulbs were around $200...

It varies from projector to projector, and on how you you the projector.

For the AE700, Panasonic is quoting 3000hrs on low, 2000hrs high lamp mode.
(edited to fix low/high typos)

Re: bulb price-

The Panasonic site I saw listed the bulb for $360. Funny thing is, most projector vendors are selling the bulbs for $369. It's cheaper to buy direct from Panasonic!

isn't that 5000 hrs on low lamp mode?

yeah ive read its 5000 too. How would the panasonic ae700 compare to those overhead projector/lcd monitor 1024x768 designs? in in PQ terms - not aesthetics.

The only time I read 5000-hours from a Panasonic projector is on Videogon with the L500U. And that reseller inplied the AE700 was much less.

Has anyone contacted Panasonic about the flashes? People should start to return their projectors demanding that the flashes and pixel cropping be fixed.

Originally posted by tvted
Are you outputting 720p from the player to the PJ or or you using the AE700 's internal scaler?

ted
I'm sending 1080i via HDMI over a 4 meter cable and have not encountered white flashes thus far.

Originally posted by Rgb
For the AE700, Panasonic is quoting 3000hrs on high, 2000hrs low lamp mode.



Originally posted by JimP
isn't that 5000 hrs on low lamp mode?


Even if it's not 5000, the low lamp hours would have to be higher than the high, right?



Stew

Originally posted by JDEATON
bubbawilly

<snip>

Otherwise, after nearly 200 hours I remain exceptionally happy with the 700. I find it to be a device that is extremely revealing of the quality of the source. its easy to tell the difference between well mastered film and video, and less than pristine material.

John

I'd rather it be extremely *forgiving*.

I'm sorry to keep popping in here with questions, but at this point I am extremely frustrated and would appreciate any help. I've had my AE-700 and DVD-S97 a few days now and its driving me nuts. Using the HDMI output from from the S97 set at 480P, the image fills the screen. If I switch to 720P or 1080i, there is a 2" band on the top and bottom of the screen which is not filled (i.e. the picture is slightly smaller). Why is it doing this, and is there any solution.

Thanks,
Jason

Originally posted by jtremble
I'm sorry to keep popping in here with questions, but at this point I am extremely frustrated and would appreciate any help. I've had my AE-700 and DVD-S97 a few days now and its driving me nuts. Using the HDMI output from from the S97 set at 480P, the image fills the screen. If I switch to 720P or 1080i, there is a 2" band on the top and bottom of the screen which is not filled (i.e. the picture is slightly smaller). Why is it doing this, and is there any solution.

Thanks,
Jason

Could be pixel cropping on the HDMI at the higher resolutions. Can you throw up an overscan test pattern on DVD to check it?

Originally posted by cpc
Has anyone contacted Panasonic about the flashes? People should start to return their projectors demanding that the flashes and pixel cropping be fixed.

Agreed!!!!!

Originally posted by jtremble
I'm sorry to keep popping in here with questions, but at this point I am extremely frustrated and would appreciate any help. I've had my AE-700 and DVD-S97 a few days now and its driving me nuts. Using the HDMI output from from the S97 set at 480P, the image fills the screen. If I switch to 720P or 1080i, there is a 2" band on the top and bottom of the screen which is not filled (i.e. the picture is slightly smaller). Why is it doing this, and is there any solution.

Thanks,
Jason

I have the same combination. Is this for 2.35:1 material? You may be in zoom mode at 480p. Try changing the aspect ratio on the 700 on it's remote button. It got me when I first got it. Both the player and the display have aspect ratio control at 480p.

I haven't seen this mentioned either, but how do you clean the lens? Just dust on the outside type of stuff...

Originally posted by Rgb
It varies from projector to projector, and on how you you the projector.

For the AE700, Panasonic is quoting 3000hrs on high, 2000hrs low lamp mode.


Wouldn't it be 3000 on low and 2000 on high since in high mode your running the bulb @ full power?

Cause if it's true the high gets longer life, I'll just run mine on high (the difference between high and low for me... u had to look hard to see a difference, it wasn't like a night and day difference)

Originally posted by Milehigh
I haven't seen this mentioned either, but how do you clean the lens? Just dust on the outside type of stuff...

Milehigh: See the thread I just posted, 'Easy Lens Cleaning Technique'

i have just ordered the panny 700 but now it seems like i can order a sony hs50 from Germany for about the same price as the panny so i will probably swap.

the prices on the hs50 in Germany are crazy right now some dealers sells it for the same price as the 700 and they accept COD (cash on delivery) but other dealers have prices that are much higher.

i will definitely take the hs50 if its the same price as the panny

aaaaaggggggrrrrrhhhhhhh.....

I was watching a movie today and all of the sudden the power went out in the whole house. It was evidently something outside that kicked off, it only lasted about 5 seconds.

The Panny of course shut down. I was frantic thinking the bulb would surely be damaged. When the power kicked back in the pj powered up again, the green light blinked for awhile and then the bulb came back on.

Everything seems to be ok, but should I worry that something might be damaged?

This rarely happens except in a storm. No storm today, except for some light rain. Who knows why it happened.

Bob

Originally posted by BobP
aaaaaggggggrrrrrhhhhhhh.....

I was watching a movie today and all of the sudden the power went out in the whole house. It was evidently something outside that kicked off, it only lasted about 5 seconds.

The Panny of course shut down. I was frantic thinking the bulb would surely be damaged. When the power kicked back in the pj powered up again, the green light blinked for awhile and then the bulb came back on.

Everything seems to be ok, but should I worry that something might be damaged?

This rarely happens except in a storm. No storm today, except for some light rain. Who knows why it happened.

Bob

Nah, I wouldn't worry about it- just don't make it a habit ;).

The bulb life may be a little bit shorter, that's about it.

If you did this daily, the bulb life would be drastically shorter, and eventually pop on you, but it would take many more hard shutdowns to get to that point. How many? I don't know, and probably varies a lot among projectors and bulb types.

Originally posted by amrod
Wouldn't it be 3000 on low and 2000 on high since in high mode your running the bulb @ full power?

Cause if it's true the high gets longer life, I'll just run mine on high (the difference between high and low for me... u had to look hard to see a difference, it wasn't like a night and day difference)

You're right- 3000hrs on low, 2000hrs on high. Mental dyslexia!

you're wrong ;) :


3000 on high, more on low (how much ?).

2000 = high mode on/dynamic iris off

The idea of the bulb, the fan and shutting down.

The reason the fan runs, is to cool the bulb down so that when you power back up, the bulb is cool when it is ignited. Igniting the bulb from off is quite a surge in voltage. You don't want to turn the bulb on when its too hot.

If your projector turns off without the fan cooling it, and you want to turn it on again within a few minutes, then be patient and wait a few minutes more.

Does anyone know ideally how long you should wait before turning your PJ back on if the power is cut and it shuts off completely without the fan running for a few minutes? Unlike a slide projector, you can't turn the digital projectors fan on without turning on the bulb!

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how should the brightness of this projector compare to the X1? Anyone upgrade to the AE 700 from the X1? I'm just wondering if it is worth the money or if I should hold out for something coming down the road later (i.e. it's not enough of an upgrade).

Been using my ae700 for two weeks now, upgraded from an nec lt-150 (infamous Dell deal a few years back), and generally have been real impressed. The brightness clarity and contrast are really amazing. Projecting a 110" diag picture on DIY Blackout cloth, seating at about 15ft away. Have seen a few problems....vb...white flashes on hdmi...slight screen door...and fan noise (ceiling mounted low lamp mode/dynamic iris on). At first was a little disappointed...especially with the fan noise, I was hoping for almost none since the fan noise on the nec was really bad, but now I hardly even notice the fan, even at low volume movie/TV scenes.... not sure why it changed. The other problems have pretty much become non issues also, for the most part vb has been eliminated by powering off after each session (kind of a pain to get up a ladder each time), have not even tried flicker adj yet, because I rarely see any vb now. I may try leaving the power on later, for a few sessions, to see if vb comes back...but am a little wary..I did not notice any vb the first time I used the pj, but the next day (leaving in standby over night), it was pretty bad (though not anywhere near as bad as the dlp rainbows of a 1x wheel...yeah I am susceptible to them, but still used the nec for a few years).

The white flashes definitely happen on my unit, but usually not too often....sometimes will go for hours without seeing them. I am seeing white flashes crop up under two circumstances, the first is when my Hughes HD-htl d* receiver is in variable res mode ("native"), and I change between channels that have different res, e.g. espnHD(720p) and HdNet(1080i). These flashes are predicatble as they happen every time the receiver has to change between resolutions and usually is two or more quick flashes. Might be because it takes a few nano/millisecs for the hughes to change the res in the output?? The other white flashes are random, and last much less in duration. I have a 9 meter better cables display magic dvi cable with a monster hdmi adapter. Right now the flashes don't really bother me much...heck HD has other issues more distracting (brief picture loss, shimmering because of bandwidth starving, audio out of sync...etc), but I am going to try component out for HD, because I have a 30ft component cable run that the zenith db318 dvd player uses, and I have'nt noticed any white flashes from the dvd. I really have not used the dvd player much yet ( calibrated with old VE, watched two movies, Shreck2 and Fight Club) ....even with the afore mentioned HD problems, watching HD on this baby gets addictive, sporting events (Sunday Ticket, espn, CBS sec games) in particular...there is never any time to mow the lawn on Sunday's anymore...well maybe during Thanksgiving. Eventually will do more white flash testing since I have two long run cables to compare.


I think the screen door is because of the blackout material I am using, I can see it in the screen even without projecting onto it, I would bet once I get a real screen there won't be any.

Picture modes....at first I started with natural mode color temp -1 sharpness -3, every thing else default, because of earlier suggestions in this thread, but I find it a little dull for HD, and now have been using normal mode sharpness -2 color temp between -1 and +1 depending on source, every thing else default. The problem with normal mode is sometimes the faces of people don't have correct colors...some faces look either sunburned or at times yellow. The odd/tricky thing about this is it varies with HD source material, something like Jag the faces are so red (an issue with the program as I see it on my Sony RPTV also), I find moving color temp up to +1 is the easiest way to make it acceptable (also can change color/tint, but found color temp seems to be a quick and effective fix ). Sometimes it will vary within the same program slightly, it almost looks like the makeup is really noticeable and you can see makeup lines in some of the actors. I really don't see the makeup lines in natural mode, it might be that normal mode is showing more detail, and the makeup artists are just not always up to HD standards. For the component dvd, I calibrated natural mode at color temp -1, sharpness -2 brightness -5, contrast 0...I have not tried the other modes yet for dvd. Well gotta get some sleep....or maybe I will sneak back into the theater room for another hour or so.


BTW I have an answer to the question as to why I have not sent my ae700 back yet because of defective standby and hdmi.....I know it's lame since we should expect these things to work right, but it is kind of like the problems with HD, they are distractions, but the overall enjoyment I get when watching HD material makes me forget about or at least ignore the problems. It might be the same with the ae700, I just like watching the picture of it sooo much I keep saying to myself..eh.. climbing the ladder to prevent vb, and seeing white flashes are not all that bad after all...especially with these slightly above or under a $2k price point.


John

Thanks John for your impressions of your AE700. I have one on order and
should receive it this week. I will also be using it with a Zenith DVB 318 and I am wondering if there is a cropping issue on the right side. I had
this problem with the DVB 318 and a Sanyo Z2 which I sold. If you have
could you check it out.

Thanks

Has anyone had a dust blob issue with the AE700? I wonder how hard it is
to clean the dust blobs on the this unit?

Originally posted by BobP
aaaaaggggggrrrrrhhhhhhh.....

I was watching a movie today and all of the sudden the power went out in the whole house. It was evidently something outside that kicked off, it only lasted about 5 seconds.

The Panny of course shut down. I was frantic thinking the bulb would surely be damaged. When the power kicked back in the pj powered up again, the green light blinked for awhile and then the bulb came back on.

Everything seems to be ok, but should I worry that something might be damaged?

This rarely happens except in a storm. No storm today, except for some light rain. Who knows why it happened.

Bob

I think it is a good idea to put the PJ on a low-cost battery back up UPS, something in the 375-450 watt range. If the power goes out, you'll have time to shut off the lamp and let it cool down normally with the fan. I bought one at BB for $40 - cheap insurance.

Got mine running on a UPS too.

Sending an up-converted DVD signal to a HD display can create evidently minor issues with the color matrix for some players (such as the Sony S975). One recommendation for resolving this is to select the "SD Color Matrix" (which apparently is switchable for some TVs, at least).

A query posted to the DVD forum about the potential availability of an SD/HD Color Matrix switch in the AE700 yielded negative results (see quotes below). Does anyone in this thread have knowledge of the SD/HD color matrix, and whether this can be adjusted on the AE700? Thanx.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
NTSC (SD) and ATSC (HD) process color in a different way -- not radically different but somewhat different. DVDs are encoded for SD matrix. ... Sending an SD color matrix to a display that is expecting an HD color matrix results in a significant reduction of the color green -- the "green depression". Some TVs do not allow for the selection of the SD color Matrix at 1080i/720p.
Originally posted by rockytopps
Can someone please explain (Paul Bigelow) what in the heck is a SD/HD color matrix and where on my menu I can find out which my display uses. I have a Panasonic AE700 projector. I have looked on my menus and can't find anything specifically labeled as color matrix. Any help that Paul or anyone can provide would be great.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Brian - NTSC (SD -- color televison of the past 50 years) and ATSC (HD -- High Definiton Television) each process color in a different way. The difference between the two is basically SD uses more red and blue and less green than HD to make white. When SD color is sent to a display expecting HD color, the red and blue are boosted and the green is "depressed".

Some people sensitive to color accuracy will see the difference, some will hardly notice. The first thing to do is to determine if there is a problem. I don't have the AE700. I downloaded the manual and had a quick look for SD/HD matrix-type settings but didn't find anything obvious. - Paul

Originally posted by jmck407

The white flashes definitely happen on my unit, but usually not too often....sometimes will go for hours without seeing them. I am seeing white flashes crop up under two circumstances, the first is when my Hughes HD-htl d* receiver is in variable res mode ("native"), and I change between channels that have different res, e.g. espnHD(720p) and HdNet(1080i). These flashes are predicatble as they happen every time the receiver has to change between resolutions and usually is two or more quick flashes.
John

Excellent observation John!

I wonder... could white flashes over HDMI/DVI with DVD be due to a similar phenomenon? For instance, during the layer change on a DVD the audio and video drop momentarily. Could reacquiring this signal be causing the white flash, much like reacquiring signals from one channel to the next on a STB did for John? Also, although virtually undetectable otherwise, the audio (and perhaps video) can drop out between chapters on a DVD, depending on how well it was mastered. I have even very new DVD's where this happens at least once in addition to the normal dropout for the layer change. Some audio pre-processors actually reflect the drop and reacquisition on their front panel display (mine does).

This could account for the white flashes that are seemingly 'random' with DVD.

Can someone check at least a layer change to see if the flash occurs. Kill Bill 2's layer change occurs between chapters 11 and 12, at about 81 minutes.

Has anyone compared a DVD using the internal interlacer vs a progressive
scan machine?

Originally posted by rwestley
Has anyone compared a DVD using the internal interlacer vs a progressive scan machine?
I've tried 480(i), 480(p), 720(p), and 1080(i) with a Sony S975 player, and haven't seen white flashes in any of these modes. Therefore, if there is a handshaking / synch issue for DVD playback via HDMI, it (a) may only affect certain combinations of players & projectors, (b) possibly I haven't yet encountered a DVD for which the layer change presents a problem.

I've also tried 480(i) with an older Sony S400 which does not have HDMI output. However, I prefer using HDMI via the Sony S975, and will probably keep it. When the signal is supplied via the HDMI connection, the AE700 seems to do a good job of automatically scaling the picture, filling the full width of the screen. Since this seems to work well with HDMI, I haven't found it necessary to manually zoom and re-focus for movies with different aspect ratios.

Thanks Tlink for your post. Do you notice any difference in picture quality
using the AE700 vs the interlacing of the Sony S975 player. In other words
is it worth it it use an upscalling machine.

All members that use the Sony S975 HDMI output say that they didn't experience the "white flash" thing... Could we be onto something?

First - that switch plate protector thing, unfortunately I haven't seen them sold by themselves, I got mine from a ceiling fan kit I had bought a long time ago. The shelf was also do it yourself, although I didn't have to put much into it. It turns out I had a silly folding food tray thing that we never use. I just unscrewed the legs, stained it, and that become my shelf with no cutting required -- it was the perfect size. I bet you could find something similar at any store that sells such items. The brackets were from home depot.


Originally posted by hitchfan
TraderGordo,

Thanks for the pic of your projector set up. Is that shelf unit DIY or did you buy it pre-fab somewhere?

That's exactly what I'm looking for but the usual retailers' pre-fab supply aren't deep enough or are way to wide. That one looks just right for my set up. too.

If that is a pre-fab shelf unit, where did you buy it?

Or memembers who are using an HTPC seeing flashes?

Going with the AE700 for my new HT room.

The problem is I have a very short distance to my viewing wall. (11'6")

From viewing the Projector calculator, the diagonal screen size would be 68X51X29 for a 16:9 at a Zoom of 1.0.

Am I suffering from "Screen Envy"? or is the largest I can get from the panny without messing with the zoom?

I checked out the AE500 and at the same distance, was a much bigger screen.

Do I need to look at another pj or should I be satisfied?

Thanks!

Here are pictures of my "flashes". I using a Panasonic S97 with a 30ft HDMI Pacific Cable. Very few flashes untill I switch from 480P to 720P or 1080i. The flashing then becomes rapid. I have moved the dvd player next to the projector and hooked up a 6ft HDMI that came with the dvd player. Then the flashing all but stopped??? The first picture is the 480P and the rest are the 1080i. The same constant flashing happens when I switch it to 720P. I don't really know, but I would say that it could be a projector problem but it's most likely a cable issue being that the 6ft cable had very few flashes(not constant).

Now the 1080i.

Flashing is rapid and typically stays towards the bottom half of the screen

another

last one. can anyone help with ideas

Hey Drew,

This is a fairly popular DVD movie so maybe others who have the DVD could try it on their setup at the same point and see if the white flash occurs on their equipment. If several people could do it and report their findings then maybe we could isolate whether it is the PJ or the DVD source material.

Cheers

Mav

This happens with every dvd that I play. And it happens as the dvd is playing. This is not a point in the movie that it happens all the time. I just decided to pause it here. Also I thought an animated movie would show the flashing better. I repeat, this flashing happens none stop on any movie that I play. But only on 720p or 1080i. And only with my 30ft Pacific Cable(not trying to name bash) HMDI cable. Once I moved the dvd player next to the projector to try the 6ft panny supplied S97 HDMI cable, then it works fine(in 720P and 1080i).
On a side note, when I see the very brief flashing on all other sources it looks similar to the constant flashing.

I know that there are no concrete solutions for the "white flash" problem... but GOD... the picture quality of this projector is so awesome that it just ruins my experience when the white flash occurs on my 106" screen.

I am using a Denon 1910 DVD player on 720p set with 16:9 (so the projector doesn't have to scale). I am also using a Monster cable (6ft DVI to HDMI). As stated by others, the white flash only occurs randomly a few times during a movie; and only happens with the DVD source and NOT with HDTV.

Does anyone have a solution for this problem yet? Anyone think it can be the DVI/HDMI convertion in the cable? Or should I exchange the DVD player for a different brand? Or is it the projector itself? ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!


**PLEASE PLEASE HELP**

thanks in advance

drew300, sounds like your problem is different from the 'white flash' I and other owners are experiencing. From your description, it seems like the 30ft cable is the likely culprit.

The white flash that I've been experiencing (and quite a few other owners) is random and lasts only for a fraction of a second. The whole screen flashes to a bright white, color speckled screen. It's bright enough that I've noticed the flash even when I wasn't looking at the screen, i.e. in my darkened room, I was looking for my cup nearby and the flash literally lit up the room for a split second.

To questions regarding the white flash problem from others.
My main use is for DVD viewing, with a Denon 2910 connected via 6 meter 400 series Monster HDMI-HDMI cable.
a) I've noticed white flashes in every resolution. 1080i, 720p, 480p

b) The white flash does NOT seem to be caused by things like layers changes. I know exactly where the layer change is on the Star Wars AOTC DVD and it does not trigger the white flash, but flashes will randomly occur through the movie. They average about 1-2 times per movie, but I'm sometimes lucky enough to watch a movie without a flash, and other times, watching the SAME movie, I'll see 3-4 flashes. (Yes, I've watched different DVDs several times each at different resolutions). Replaying the same scene where the flash occurred, i.e. rewind and then playing the scene over has so far never repeated a flash at the same point.

c) Other people have noted white flashes with non-Denon DVD players too as well as with different HDMI cables.

d) I initially thought it might have something to do with power fluctuations but after connecting it to a $900 fully online AC regenerating UPS, the flashes still occur.

I intended to try using component cables to see if that eliminated the problem, but I don't have a component cable that's long enough and considering the fact that component cables supposedly incur a greater probability of picture degradation for longer runs, I didn't feel like paying $200-$300 for a high-end cable that can only carry a 480p signal since I've determined that the Denon player's scaler is better than the Panny's. BTW the Denon's deinterlacer is also better but I get a slightly sharper picture with 1080i and the deinterlacing artifacts only crop up occasionally. To me, they aren't anywhere near as distracting as the white flashes.

As to why I don't send a 720p signal from the player, in back to back viewing of the same scenes with 720p and 1080i, I noted that I got a slightly more detailed picture with 1080i than 720p. After checking with the AVIA disc, I also discovered that for some reason, I get a small amount of Y/C delay with the 720p signal (slightly more even with 480p) while there is practically no Y/C delay from the 1080i.

Originally posted by GTheater
Going with the AE700 for my new HT room.

The problem is I have a very short distance to my viewing wall. (11'6")

From viewing the Projector calculator, the diagonal screen size would be 68X51X29 for a 16:9 at a Zoom of 1.0.

Am I suffering from "Screen Envy"? or is the largest I can get from the panny without messing with the zoom?

I checked out the AE500 and at the same distance, was a much bigger screen.

Do I need to look at another pj or should I be satisfied?

Thanks!

Why don't you want to use zoom? I have a throw distance just about exactly the same as yours, and I'm able to do a 106" diagonal no problem with zoom. I'm not seeing any problems with the picture as a result of zoom.

drew300

I was noticing that on your jpegs showing the white flashes, the block headed up "Menu" shows HDMI color Space as YCbCr. Shouldn't that be RGB??? Perhaps the flashes are related to this. Is there an adjustment that changes the HDMI Color Space??

Originally posted by talo
Or memembers who are using an HTPC seeing flashes?
As stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm using an HTPC to drive my AE700 at 720p (from an Nvidia FX5700) with a 10m DVI-HDMI lead.

Not one white flash so far, and I watched Shrek 2 last night with the missus with absolutely no issues at all. The DVD was ripped to the hard drive first.

The only issues I have had have turned out to be connection related; on my unit at least, the HDMI socket is very particular about how the lead is seated, and if it isn't just right I can get a screen full of rubbish, or sometimes a small "window" in the top-left corner showing a still of what was last viewed on the SCART socket (from my Sky+ satellite box), or even the occasional green flash across part of the screen. But when the connection is just right, absolutely perfect image (I can live with the overscan).

I may try a VGA lead instead to compare to DVI-HDMI, but I don't know if a 10m VGA lead will lead to picture quality issues.

Does anyone have a solution for this problem yet? Anyone think it can be the DVI/HDMI convertion in the cable? Or should I exchange the DVD player for a different brand? Or is it the projector itself? ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!

i hate to say it but i don't think there is a solution to your problem, youre just suffering from too much signal loss or interference. (there's no conversion between DVI/HDMI.. just a different connector) i've seen this situation on various DVI connections with 2 common factors.

1.) sending a lot of video data. the 480p signal is a mere 16% of the 1080i.

2.) extended cable lengths

the only thing i can think of is maybe finding out if a ferrite clamp could help you, but i can't tell you what the properties of such a clamp would have to be.

if a ferrite clamp does help with interference with this type of signal, maybe you could make a custom dvi cable with twisted pairs and ferrite clamps.. but that's a lot of work :(

Jim P
The YCbCr is a pixel ratio. I think. In the menu it has YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2. I switched it and nothing happened. I'm sure that it's a cable issue. Now i've seen the very brief flashing that everybody else has described. It happens only once every hour or so. The reason I showed the pictures is I think the constant flashing looks (to me at least) similar to the quick flashes. It does happen so fast that it's hard to tell. I really don't know anything about projectors so I can't answer intelligently. But I wonder if it is a problem with HDMI and the problem increases with a longer distance and/or lower quality cable. I have also removed the HDMI cable out the holes in the joists. Thinking it might be interferace. There was no change. I've also tried to adjust the connector on the dvd and projector thinking it was a bad connection. That's why it's probably a HDMI problem.
Not to try to scare anyone away though. This is the best purchase I have ever made. I think it is so cool and if I have to fudge with it a little, I will. I will try a higher quality but it will take me some time to get it.

Originally posted by bubbawilly
Excellent observation John!

I wonder... could white flashes over HDMI/DVI with DVD be due to a similar phenomenon? For instance, during the layer change on a DVD the audio and video drop momentarily. Could reacquiring this signal be causing the white flash, much like reacquiring signals from one channel to the next on a STB did for John? Also, although virtually undetectable otherwise, the audio (and perhaps video) can drop out between chapters on a DVD, depending on how well it was mastered. I have even very new DVD's where this happens at least once in addition to the normal dropout for the layer change. Some audio pre-processors actually reflect the drop and reacquisition on their front panel display (mine does).

This could account for the white flashes that are seemingly 'random' with DVD.

Can someone check at least a layer change to see if the flash occurs. Kill Bill 2's layer change occurs between chapters 11 and 12, at about 81 minutes.

I doubt it would be layer change. This problem (not drew's) wherein there is complete picture loss is likely to be caused by loss of synch. Since it is the player and not the dvd that presents the display with synch, sychronization is retained during a layer switch - which effects audio because ther is no synch signal but does not effect video other than a pause at that frame - there should be no video loss during a layer switch.
On the AE700 the "flashing" appears random.

ted

Originally posted by djMichael
...... Anyone think it can be the DVI/HDMI convertion in the cable? Or should I exchange the DVD player for a different brand? Or is it the projector itself? ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!


**PLEASE PLEASE HELP**

thanks in advance

There is no "conversion" from DVI to HDMI. DVI is a subset of HDMI.
If I recall, a HDMI cable comes with the PJ, you might try this cable with an adaptor - or another cable.

ted

Drew

If its due to signal loss over long cables, they are repeaters amplifiers.

Only problem is that you would have to buy one to know for sure.

Originally posted by jtremble
I'm sorry to keep popping in here with questions, but at this point I am extremely frustrated and would appreciate any help. I've had my AE-700 and DVD-S97 a few days now and its driving me nuts. Using the HDMI output from from the S97 set at 480P, the image fills the screen. If I switch to 720P or 1080i, there is a 2" band on the top and bottom of the screen which is not filled (i.e. the picture is slightly smaller). Why is it doing this, and is there any solution.

Thanks,
Jason

I have the same problem but with a DENON 2910!
And the white flashes to!

Is there any solution

Originally posted by GarryO
I have the same problem but with a DENON 2910!
And the white flashes to!

Is there any solution

The L-300U does this with HD (analog) sources as well.

Anyone?

I have seen the flashes like this if I send a bad signal to the projector. I know this sounds wierd, but I have 2 solutions for those interested. #1, if you could start using a htpc, it really is the best way to go. I found a driver for a Sony 23" LCD monitor that will do 1920x1080. Now I can switch to whatever res I want to and I do not see the flashes. YMMV.
Now the second solution is this: If you got a Japenese projector with the D4 input, you could order a cable from Japan that is dvi-d4 and run it that way. It will still be a digital signal and maybe just maybe we will not lose any pixels on the edges of our desktop. Now I have half a mind to try this, but the other half(my wife) indicates expensive experiments have not yet received a grant. I hope this will work.....

Originally posted by zxlr8
I have seen the flashes like this if I send a bad signal to the projector. I know this sounds wierd, but I have 2 solutions for those interested. #1, if you could start using a htpc, it really is the best way to go. I found a driver for a Sony 23" LCD monitor that will do 1920x1080. Now I can switch to whatever res I want to and I do not see the flashes. YMMV.
Now the second solution is this: If you got a Japenese projector with the D4 input, you could order a cable from Japan that is dvi-d4 and run it that way. It will still be a digital signal and maybe just maybe we will not lose any pixels on the edges of our desktop. Now I have half a mind to try this, but the other half(my wife) indicates expensive experiments have not yet received a grant. I hope this will work.....

Your experiments lend credance to the theory that HDCP handshaking is causing the white flashes.

AFAIK, HTPC's do not support HDCP on most (all?) video card DVI outputs.

All the set top's with DVI and/or HDMI outputs mentioned in this thread (S97, Sony's, Denon's) are probably applying HDCP encryption over the digital DVI/HDMI cable.

One way to test this theory is to use a non-CSS encrypted DVD on a set top DVD player with DVi/HDMI, either commercially available or use the free available tools to make your own DVD backup (with a low cost PC DVD burner) without CSS encryption- see the HTPC FAQ for link to Ripping 101/102/050 threads for how-to's of making a DVD backup without CSS encryption.

I am assuming that HDCP is applied only when a DVD is CSS encrypted, of course. If this is not the case, then this is yet another reason to avoid DVI/HDMI connections, as the manufacturers have no reason (or right) to encrypt your home movies/ personal video or personal backups (neither of which are CSS encrypted).

Originally posted by zxlr8
I have seen the flashes like this if I send a bad signal to the projector. I know this sounds wierd, but I have 2 solutions for those interested. #1, if you could start using a htpc, it really is the best way to go. I found a driver for a Sony 23" LCD monitor that will do 1920x1080. Now I can switch to whatever res I want to and I do not see the flashes. YMMV.
Now the second solution is this: If you got a Japenese projector with the D4 input, you could order a cable from Japan that is dvi-d4 and run it that way. It will still be a digital signal and maybe just maybe we will not lose any pixels on the edges of our desktop. Now I have half a mind to try this, but the other half(my wife) indicates expensive experiments have not yet received a grant. I hope this will work.....

Well, I tend to agree with you that HTPC is the ideal solution for those that are computer literate and at least mildly "techie". I think the best feature of HTPC is simply the movie organizer front end. One of the things people are most impressed with is when I bring up a beautiful menu of my movie collection with all the cover art, and can click on any movie and get the full description, review, synopsis, rating, etc. No high end stand alone DVD player does this (as far as I know). Of course the excellent FREE post processor and scaler from FFDShow is also wonderful, and being able to display high def content is also a huge plus.

As for the D4 input -- I believe it is analog, the equivalent of our component.


I don't have a component cable that's long enough and considering the fact that component cables supposedly incur a greater probability of picture degradation for longer runs, I didn't feel like paying $200-$300 for a high-end cable

I don't know where the misconception on cable prices come from -- do you only shop at BestBuy? You can get phenomenal quality ANALOG cables for dirt cheap. Here's one example for you, of a triple shielded, gold plated, 50 foot component cable for around $30
PCCables (http://www.pccables.com/cgi-bin/orders6.cgi?action=Showitem&id=ID1844267&partno=02423&search=COMPONENT&rsite=pccables.com&rcode=)

VGA cables are similarly priced.

Iam pretty sure the D in D4 means digital. I guess we need to research some.

Originally posted by zxlr8
Iam pretty sure the D in D4 means digital. I guess we need to research some.

http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/jdcon.htm

appears to suggest that the D4 connector is simply a YPbPr component output, which I infer to mean analog, as the Gamecube is analog output only.

I think the D refers to the shape of the connector, like DB15 or Db9 connectors.

I see. That is mildly disappointing.

Originally posted by djbluemax1


I intended to try using component cables to see if that eliminated the problem, but I don't have a component cable that's long enough and considering the fact that component cables supposedly incur a greater probability of picture degradation for longer runs, I didn't feel like paying $200-$300 for a high-end cable that can only carry a 480p signal since I've determined that the Denon player's scaler is better than the Panny's. BTW the Denon's deinterlacer is also better but I get a slightly sharper picture with 1080i and the deinterlacing artifacts only crop up occasionally. To me, they aren't anywhere near as distracting as the white flashes.

As to why I don't send a 720p signal from the player, in back to back viewing of the same scenes with 720p and 1080i, I noted that I got a slightly more detailed picture with 1080i than 720p. After checking with the AVIA disc, I also discovered that for some reason, I get a small amount of Y/C delay with the 720p signal (slightly more even with 480p) while there is practically no Y/C delay from the 1080i.

You will have no discernable (meaning zero visual loss to normal people) loss over component using simple, low cost shielded RG-6 cables for the Y-Pb-Pr components.

I have used 3x 25ft RG6 cables with F-RCA adapters for over two years, outputting 480p from a Panasonic RP82 player to various LCD projectors with excellent results.

This is a common practice for even much longer runs- do a forum search for component cables and/or RG6.

Originally posted by joffonon


I may try a VGA lead instead to compare to DVI-HDMI, but I don't know if a 10m VGA lead will lead to picture quality issues.

A good quality, well shielded DB15 analog VGA cable can look identical to DVI when 1:1 pixel mapped, trivial to do on the AE700 via analog RGB.

I am using a 10m Bettercables DB15-DB15 cable from various PC's with both Radeons and GeForces. Other brands (RAM, Lindy, etc) would probably produce similar results.

See posts earlier in the thread.

I've seen the white flash using a DVI->HDMI cable from my Hughes DirectTV receiver to the projector. Then again, it might be a HDCP signal.

Very intresting read for sure, I have been following the PT-50DL54 for quite a while and thought I found the missing link until I read a review for this PT-AE700 @ http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae700.htm

Using the Panasonic Calculator @ http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/promo/calculate/calc192/html/aspct169/ae700.html

My Room is 13'-6" Deep planing on 75" screen size, Therefore 75" * 1.8 the screen width gets me a viewing distance (back of the couch) 11-3".

Am I dreaming or should I re-consider DLP.

I seen the AE700 @ 2001 Audio Video on a 110" screen and they did a very bad job setting it up, picture looks dull, insulting, they are using components and a expressvu 6100 which is same as 811 in the US and could be running dvd throught the 6100 inputs. Again I asked if they would shrink the picture down to something that I would be intrested in and they would not (did not know how) do it for me.

And I Also was planning to make my own screen out of blackout cloth following this thread @ http://members.shaw.ca/danhanson/Theater/screen/screenproject.htm

Again someone please smack me with a fish is this wishful dreaming ;)

Roomsize: 13-6, no windows very dark.?
Make my own 75" screen?
Projector will be slightly off centre at back of room, will build shelf @13'6' mark

Why DLP? A true 720P DLP machine will set you back thousands more, and arguably, you wouldn't gain a thing save for a little better black-level.

As to the setup you saw, it was clearly not optimized. One strength LCD has always had over DLP is color saturation. Sounds like your setup would be perfect for the 700.

Hi All,

I was relatively busy over the weekend so I didn't get to report back to you regarding the efficacy of the setup changes I had made.

The log and short is that I don't think they made any difference whatsoever.

So I am still having flashes every so often (I think about 2 or 3 times in a normal movie when using the 3910 dvi-hdmi connection.

Originally posted by milt
Do we know enough about the AE-700 now to know whether it is a good
idea to plan to put a Farouja chip in front of the projector? I have seen
enough comment in this thread about various problems like combing
artifacts and peekaboo lines that it would seem like it might help. Is there
anyone that has done any A/B comparisons on this issue (like maybe
trying the projector with and without a Farouja-equipped scalar). Thanks.

Originally posted by TheFerret
milt, are you suggesting their is a weakness in the deinterlacing of 480i, weakness in the scale, or both such that a Faroudja processor would overcome this perceived weakness?

Whew! Let a few days go by without checking the thread and a lot of water
goes under the bridge. A topic can be completely forgotten in that time.

Yes, I am suggesting that enough comments have been made in this thread
about the quality of the video processing in the projector that it might be
worthwhile to use a Farouja processor in front of the projector and always
feed the projector its native 720p. The combing artifacts and peekaboo
lines that have been observed would both be effects that should be
reduced with better video processing would they not? So, I was wondering
if anyone had done some applicable A/B testing? There have been quite a
few posts that discuss setting various DVD players to various output
resolutions, but I don't know enough to know which of these DVD players
use or do not use the Farouja processor.

Also note that there was a post after mine that suggested that maybe the
white flash problem would be reduced or eliminated if 720p was always
fed to the projector. I also haven't seen any reply to this suggestion.

Milt

Rgb

Got to agree with you on the RG6 cables, I've even used them on composite video that require long runs with great results.

Originally posted by bubbawilly
Why DLP? A true 720P DLP machine will set you back thousands more, and arguably, you wouldn't gain a thing save for a little better black-level.

As to the setup you saw, it was clearly not optimized. One strength LCD has always had over DLP is color saturation. Sounds like your setup would be perfect for the 700.

PT-50DL54, yes a DLP but not a front projector. I never even would of considered a projector until now. I am hooked on the AE700 from various websites and user reviews. I have not found one in my area except the one @ 2001 Audio Video. From what I understand the smaller the footprint (75") the better the output will be.


(Dull / washed out picture @ 110")

I can't blame 2001 Audio Video it was the store opening on the weekend and they only had a day to set it up. Still using the "out of the box settings"

Go for it!!!
Just wanted to give my 2 cent review for anyone who is still on the fence with the AE700. I got my AE 700 on Friday and had an entire rainy weekend to check out the projector. While I am a newbie to HT, I feel I did a lot of research prior to my purchase. The wife says I'm a little anal so "research" is probably an understatement. :) I have managed to read this entire thread along with others over the last 2 months and considered the topics of screen door, black levels, flashes, VB, fan noise, etc. I don't see DLP rainbows and I wondered about the screen door of LCDs. I was definitely open to all options.

My overall goal was to have a bright, clean, and sharp picture with a little ambient light. I am building a dedicated HT room so light is not an issue but I don't want to be a cave either. I loved the clarity and brightness my beloved 55" HDTV Mitsubishi Diamond RPTV. I did have the opportunity to look around at other projectors before I bought the Panny. I even considered waiting for the Sony HS51. A couple of weeks ago, I had the opportunity to borrow my friend's new Dell 4100MP DLP projector. It's Lumens video output is about 900 but after seeing it, I believe it was lower. Bottom-line, the 4100 was not a very good picture. In addition to the native 4:3 aspect ratio, HDTV looked very dull and movies were decent at best. After spending a week with the 4100, its performance did make me question whether a projector was the way to go. What's more, my wife and mother saw the 4100 and had major doubts about my new projector "project". The 4100 performance definitely was a setback in wife/mom poll not to mention mine.

I then decided to visit a local electronics superstore with a media room. They had 2 different Canon model LCD projectors that started off at $5000. To my horror, the picture had so much screen door it was unwatchable. I was easily 15 feet back from the screen and could clearly see it. The media guy tried to ignore my comments about the visible screen door but he seemed to know it was very bad.

DLP or LCD I thought? It was then I decided to give the LCD AE 700 a shot. I picked one up Friday afternoon. All my concerns were completely obliterated when I powered this bad boy up. One word- AMAZING!!!! I've seen others mention it but I would have to agree that HDTV looks absolutely stunning on the AE700. I'm running a Dish HDTV 811 through component cables and I couldn't believe my eyes. The black levels were BLACK and the picture was truly unbelievable. What's even more interesting is the fact I'm projecting the image on a roll of 6' x 4' BO cloth. I can't imagine what a real screen will look like!

I was totally blown away by this projector. It was easy to set-up and I saw no VB or screen door out of the box. I have the projector mounted above my head about 6' feet high when seated. I couldn't even hear the projector running. Like others have said, it's virtually silent. The only time I hear the fan is during the cooling period when powering down. The 4100 was very loud compared to the AE700. The lumens output was very strong and I was able to have a small lamp on without it washing out the picture. I can't tell you how impressed I am with this unit. But the final word came from the jury of my wife and mother. A collective "WOW" was heard from them. They commented how good it looked and how my little "project" had been redeemed.

I would have to say this is probably one of the best electronic investments I've made in a long time. I feel the picture is just as good (if not better) as my RPTV and almost triple the size of it. I logged about 22 hours on it this weekend and always made sure to turn off the power strip to avoid the reported VB. Despite this minor annoyance, I plan to proceed with the building of my HT with this projector. While I saw no flashes using component, I will be buying an HDMI DVD player (possibly the Sony S975?) to use the HDMI port. I'll report my progress if I see any flashes but as of now, I plan to enjoy this projector for a good while. After all, isn't that what it's all about? :)

So if you're still wondering if you should go with the AE700, I would have to say go for it!

"I think the best feature of HTPC is simply the movie organizer front end. "

TraderGordo, I believe you had posted sample screen captures of your front-end in one of the AE700 threads which I was impressed by, but it is no longer there. Have you moved it somewhere?

I have a quick question... I've noticed a lot of 1:1 pixel mapping talk going on with the use of PC video cards and even though I know that when using my Bravo D2 in 720p output I'm using the PJ's Native Res; I can't help but to wonder if the D2's custom output on DVI could be set up as a PC video card output with all it's settings and perhaps improve PQ???

Perhaps a dumb question???......perhaps not?

MILT,you just might have it, I have 35 hrs of hd direct tv with hdmi
on 720p, and with 25 hrs with an okyo dv-sp1000
using 720 hdmi, no flashes. I'll try 1080i on both., will follow up later

You've mentioned this before, now I'm really interested... what software are you using? I've used DVD Profiler for a long time, and am able to do something similiar, though maybe not as elegant a solution as what it sounds like you are using... fill us in! ;)

Originally posted by TraderGordo
I think the best feature of HTPC is simply the movie organizer front end. One of the things people are most impressed with is when I bring up a beautiful menu of my movie collection with all the cover art, and can click on any movie and get the full description, review, synopsis, rating, etc.

Well...I did it! After a few weeks of indecision, I finally plunked down for the Panny. It should be here sometime the week after next. I'm excited but I also am a little apprehensive. This is the first piece of equipment purchased for my new home theater (currently under construction). Unfortunately, it's probably going to be a while before the rest gets filled in due to "wife-imposed budgetary constraints." We're finishing the entire basement (~1500 sq-ft) and hemorrhaging the $$$ fast, so I was lucky to even get the PJ I guess!

In the near term, looks like I'll be watching DVDs through a leftover HTIB system that I bought my wife back before she was my wife. Not sure if it has anything better than composite video coming out of it. I WILL be allowed, however, to pick up my cable HD STB so I'll be able to hook something up via component at least; perhaps HDMI. This will be my first HD experience and I'm looking forward to it!

Here's hoping for a big Christmas bonus this year...a NAD T773 is next on the list...

After reading numerous posts regarding the white flash that occurs when playing DVDs through HDMI, it possibly seems narrowed down to the Denon DVD players. (I would hate it if that was the caxe, as I LOVE the Denon brand)

Is anyone experiencing the dreaded "white flash" with any other brand?

I own a Denon 1910 DVD player which sends a 720p image to the projector. My cable is only 6ft (which is a Monter cable DVI to HDMI), as I can't believe that there is a signal loss over only 6 feet! Since Denon uses DVI on this model, I wonder if a true HDMI to HDMI cable would be the solution. That would mean I would need a DVD player with a native HDMI output. ...but I don't know if that is the answer :(

any help would greatly be appriciated :)

Originally posted by ABCD
"I think the best feature of HTPC is simply the movie organizer front end. "

TraderGordo, I believe you had posted sample screen captures of your front-end in one of the AE700 threads which I was impressed by, but it is no longer there. Have you moved it somewhere?

Well, I deleted that post from the tweak thread because it was off topic (and its probably off topic here too). But now so many people are asking me about it... and I guess its relevant to AE700 owners trying to decide between an expensive stand alone DVD player and a HTPC...

The front end I am currently using to play DVDs is called "MyHTPC", which is free. This is older software that has been replaced with a commercial product, but the original free version works fine and its still available on the web. Another forum member wrote a little program called "MyMSP" (movie search path) that tells MyHTPC to search for a movie first on your hard drive(s) or network and if not found, search your DVD drive, and if still not found, to open your DVD tray. The list of movies that show up in MyHTPC can be maintained with software that I wrote myself, I call it "MyMovieImport".

All of this is still kind of kludgey and irritating for a new user to setup. I want to write new software that combines all three programs into a single easy to setup package eventually...

My software is new, I posted the download link in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=368338&goto=newpost

Here are some screen shots of the front end:
http://www.gordosoft.com/HTPC/myhtpc.JPG
http://www.gordosoft.com/HTPC/myhtpc_example.JPG

Has anyone used an iScan HD with the AE700?

White flashes?

I just got my pana PT-AE700U this weekend and set it up. At this point I don't have my screen yet and am projecting on an empty green wall (ug). Actually it looks ok without any ambient light. I'm making an image about 96x54, which is what size my screen will be. The high-def picture is amazing on the football games I watched; even the Simpsons last night had beautiful color blocks with no distortion. I'm set up through Monster cables (16 ft. thx-cert component) and it looks great. Haven't viewed a full DVD movie yet, but comcast cable looks great.

One important note about setup that I had to stumble across - zoom vs. focus. The zoom is optical, so there is no problem in using it; it simply gives you a wider range of throw distances or screen sizes to choose from without affecting image quality (other than to stretch it to the size you want - I found 8 feet to be fine). It's easy to use, maybe a little too easy. However, the functionality was not well-described in the manual, so here's the scoop. The front lens tube on the device consists of two parts - an inner long tube and an outer ring on the end. The inner cylinder is 2-3 inches long and bumpy and the outer ring is of a larger diameter but only about a quarter of an inch wide. Simply put, the inner cylinder is the zoom and the outer ring is the focus. It's not clear that these even move independently from each other at first, and I couldn't find focus as a separate entry in the manual. Make sure you adjust both until you get the picture you want. They are really easy to bump too.

Another tricky thing is that the screen setup is two levels deep in the menus, which have to be maneuvered backwards and upside down depending on your setup. The rest of the setup is well-described, but know that when you choose a spot for your unit, the picture will tolerate no roll or yaw at all, only pitch is compensated for. So make sure the projector is centered across the room from your screen, and that the mount is solid and allows no roll. Pitch the projector appropriately to cast down to the screen, but remember that there is a lens-moving knob that allows for fine tuning. Use that in conjunction with the keystone setting to center and size the picture appropriately. Very fine horizontal and vertical picture movements can be handled by the menu itself in software rather than trying to get that handle to the exact spot you want, but the roll cannot be rolled out, as far as I can tell, so get it right when you mount the projector.

Please excuse me if this issue has been raised before. I seem to be having difficulties with the 12 volt DC trigger output from the AE700U.

Our HT set-up originally consisted of an older Sharpvision XV-ZW99U combined with a Vutec Lectric Screen with a 12 DC relay to trigger the screen down and up. The Sharpvision projector output 200 mA at 12 V DC which was more than enough to trip the relay which requires a minimum of 100mA.

The system worked well for nearly 6 years. Unfortunately our projector recently died (blew its power supply and lamp) necessitating repairs that I felt were significant, given it's older design.

Consequently we decided to upgrade to the PT-AE700U, which I recently received. On this unit, there is also a 12 volt trigger.

Unfortunately, when I tried to connect the projector 12 V DC output to the screen relay, nothing happens.

I've checked with a multimeter and although the voltage output from the AE770U is 12 V DC, there is only a trickle of current, about 1.5 mA when the projector is on.

I not sure what the design specs. are, but almost all relays I've come across need much more current to trip the trigger.

I'm think of taking the unit in for service, despite the fact that I have had it hooked up for less than 1 hour.

Has anyone else tried using their 12 V out to trigger their screen?

Doc Bass
"Anyone upgrade to the AE 700 from the X1"
Yes, and HD and DVD looks much better. Better cr, better light output, (much brighter) and better resolution, of course. I still use my x1 for regular tv viewing. The 700 kills the x1 for ambient light viewing, though, at least in my case. HD football, and other viewing material in ambient light settings still looks great. I do have a high gain screen, though.

rwestley
"is it worth it it use an upscalling machine"
Sure. Scaling DVD players look great on this. A scaler with this, especially for 480i is not a bad idea, but probably unecessary for most people.

Thanks Tsteves,

I was wondering how got the internal scaler is on the AE700. Did anyone
compare the results using an upscaling player and 480i using the AE700?

I feel foolish asking this but:
I just got my 700 and Im running it with a toshibha sd5200 dvd player.
This is my first 16:9 project and I thought that a 16:9 dvd would fill the whole screen. At the moment I am throwing a 106 inch pic onto the screen but there are two unused sections aboult 4-5 inches high at the top and bottom. If I press the zoom1 it disapears and the full screen is used but the pic is out of proportion. If I hit zoom 2 the pic fill the screen but looses the edge detail


is there anyway to fix this the grey areas at the top and bottom are off putting


Sorry for the Low Tech qusetion

So I came home today and found an AE700 waiting for me on the door step. After running upstairs and hooking it up, I immediately smiled at one of the wisest purchase I've made this year. No SDE, no stuck pixels, and a very acceptable noise level. Two hours later, while messing with some sample gel filters I stumbled across the first problem.

While viewing a solid white screen, the top half is slightly pinkish and the bottom a light green. It is *very* subtle but definitely there and my wife confirmed seeing it also. I didn't notice the color issue until after I lowered the lamp level to low (which also lowered the fan level). Did I break something when the fan level went into low mode? (the room temperature is currently 69° F.) Should I send it in for warranty or is this normal during the initial hours? I shut the projector down to let the lamp and LCD panels cool down hoping the problem will be gone when I turn it back on. If not, I'll post a picture of the problem.

Originally posted by mrjag


While viewing a solid white screen, the top half is slightly pinkish and the bottom a light green.

I was disturbed to find a warm to cool color shift, across the width of my image, which was plainly visible in a black and white image (and I love old black and white movies). I found that this seemed to be eliminated by zooming just a little to enlarge my image, which has been zoomed to it's smallest in my temporary setup. It also seems that the location of the warm/cool areas seems to be related to the lens shift position, and can actually be reversed by adjusting the lens shift to a position opposite to its previous one (up vs. down or left vs. right). My extreme zoom setting, as has previously been noted by others, leaves very little latitude for using the lens shift without causing abberations. In terms of optics, I would expect abberations to be seen at the extremes of either the lens shift or the zoom, and that one would be exacerbated by the other, although this particular combination (fully zoomed in) is the only one I have actually experienced. I have not been keeping fully up to date on this thread, but early on I saw at least a few posts lamenting similar color abberations, and don't recall any responses. For anyone encountering similar problems, and who is using the extreme position of either or both the zoom/shift, look into this first, since it is VERY simple to verify by simple adjustments. One caveat: I have not had a chance to move my projector forward to exactly replicate the image's original size abd brightness, so it's POSSIBLE that the slight enlarging and dimming of the image is masking the already subtle color effects, but I don't think so.

I hope this is what's behind mrjag's and other's observations of similar problems, as it's quite managable if one has the latitude to avoid the extreme settings.

KongFan

Originally posted by Aussiewazza
I feel foolish asking this but:
I just got my 700 and Im running it with a toshibha sd5200 dvd player.
This is my first 16:9 project and I thought that a 16:9 dvd would fill the whole screen. At the moment I am throwing a 106 inch pic onto the screen but there are two unused sections aboult 4-5 inches high at the top and bottom. If I press the zoom1 it disapears and the full screen is used but the pic is out of proportion. If I hit zoom 2 the pic fill the screen but looses the edge detail


is there anyway to fix this the grey areas at the top and bottom are off putting


Sorry for the Low Tech qusetion


Are you sure the dvd is 16:9? Does it just say widescreen? If so, it could be 1.66:1, 1.85:1, 2.35:1 or 1.78:1. Only 1.78:1 would fill your 16:9 screen without bars.



Stew

Originally posted by rwestley
Thanks Tlink for your post. Do you notice any difference in picture quality
using the AE700 vs the interlacing of the Sony S975 player. In other words
is it worth it it use an upscalling machine.
The AE700 internal scaler seems to be quite good. If there's a marked difference between the inernal scaler and the up-converted signal from the Sony S975, it may require a more sophisticated viewer to discern it. I haven't exhaustively and systematically compared all the modes yet - I got distracted, and simply have been watching movies. I tried 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i from the Sony. I currently am running in the 1080i setting.

There are a couple of convenience factors for the Sony S975. The scaling for movies with different aspect ratios is automatic, and seems to work well. I did notice that the HDMI connection scaled by the player seems to show slightly more of the image that the component hookup (which I presume is scaled internally by the AE700). Another factor for the S975 is the SACD audio capability, which has reviewed well. It also plays JPEGS and MP3s ... We've enjoyed leaving it on the slideshow function with an accompanying music track. So, even if the upconversion doesn't yield dramatic improvement in comparison with the internal AE700 scaler, the other amenities / convenience factors have provided added value in this particular instance. As always, the caveat that YMMV applies.

Originally posted by KongFan
I was disturbed to find a warm to cool color shift, across the width of my image, which was plainly visible in a black and white image (and I love old black and white movies). I found that this seemed to be eliminated by zooming just a little to enlarge my image, which has been zoomed to it's smallest in my temporary setup. It also seems that the location of the warm/cool areas seems to be related to the lens shift position, and can actually be reversed by adjusting the lens shift to a position opposite to its previous one (up vs. down or left vs. right). My extreme zoom setting, as has previously been noted by others, leaves very little latitude for using the lens shift without causing abberations. In terms of optics, I would expect abberations to be seen at the extremes of either the lens shift or the zoom, and that one would be exacerbated by the other, although this particular combination (fully zoomed in) is the only one I have actually experienced. I have not been keeping fully up to date on this thread, but early on I saw at least a few posts lamenting similar color abberations, and don't recall any responses. For anyone encountering similar problems, and who is using the extreme position of either or both the zoom/shift, look into this first, since it is VERY simple to verify by simple adjustments. One caveat: I have not had a chance to move my projector forward to exactly replicate the image's original size abd brightness, so it's POSSIBLE that the slight enlarging and dimming of the image is masking the already subtle color effects, but I don't think so.

I hope this is what's behind mrjag's and other's observations of similar problems, as it's quite managable if one has the latitude to avoid the extreme settings.

KongFan I turned the projector back on after letting it fully cool down and the pink and green shades were still there. I also reset the lens shift back to the very center and tried zooms ranging from min to max. Nothing seems to help, the discoloration is definitely there. Maybe I am just nitpicking to much. I don't notice the color shift during normal DVD/HDTV viewing, but I can see it while web browsing on the HTPC. I took a few pics and will post those in the morning.

If I do end up using the warranty, will I need to pay shipping to and from my house? How long does it usually take for a claim like this? Also, will I get my unit back or just some random refurb?

mrjag

Since its brand new, I'd return it to the retailer for a replacement with another new one. Hopefully, you'll get one that doesn't have this problem.

Originally posted by djMichael
After reading numerous posts regarding the white flash that occurs when playing DVDs through HDMI, it possibly seems narrowed down to the Denon DVD players. (I would hate it if that was the caxe, as I LOVE the Denon brand)

Is anyone experiencing the dreaded "white flash" with any other brand?

I own a Denon 1910 DVD player which sends a 720p image to the projector. My cable is only 6ft (which is a Monter cable DVI to HDMI), as I can't believe that there is a signal loss over only 6 feet! Since Denon uses DVI on this model, I wonder if a true HDMI to HDMI cable would be the solution. That would mean I would need a DVD player with a native HDMI output. ...but I don't know if that is the answer :(

any help would greatly be appreciated :)

I have some very interesting updated info:
Well after doing hours of extensive research on this forum and many other forums, I've realized that this issue may just be isolated to just the Denon 1910 DVD player.

This is quoted from another site:
Originally Posted by Beano
danatk - did you have any DVI problems with the 1910 and the AE700 ?

I read that there may be some problems DVI from Demon 1910 on some plasma/PJ screens, but not on the AE700 or ?



Well, my 1910 is connected to the PJ with a 5m DVI to HDMI cable from Maplin. The picture is great, but there is a narrow border around the edge of the whole image. It's really a non-issue for me because all you have to do is adjust the zoom on the PJ a little to correct. I have noticed occassional flashes of white noise, something I heard might be a problem with this player. It happened twice during the film last night but isn't really a problem - just a split second flash.

Finally, I did see this macroblocking effect that I've heard about during the burial scene in Kill Bill 2. Again, a very minor issue which will probably be fixed with a firmware update.

Overall I'm happy with the player - the picture is really nice with the DVDs upscaled and it allows me to free up the component input on my projector for a permanent connection to the Xbox.

dan.

The White Flashes aren't limited to Denon DVD decks. I have seen them with a Toshiba (PAL and NTSC source material), also off my PC, and also off television (PAL only).

In an attempt to combat the problem (and to try and isolate it) one of the things I did was to take the ASPECT RATIO menu item off AUTO and set it to MANUAL.

White Flashes haven't happened since (three days).

If changing from AUTO to MANUAL stops it, it may indicate that the problem is something to do with the s/w in the projector constantly monitoring the aspect ratio of the source material and getting it wrong occasionally as aspect ratio ID data is corrupted due to poor replay or a damaged disk. What I saw of the white flashes looked more like the projector was losing horizontal lock (trust me, I'm a scientist).

If the problem comes back, even in MANUAL, I'll come back and retract the above statement. Until then, sports fans....

Did I say that the White Flashes Of Doom are VERY minor problems? They are.

On another matter, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away (Page 70-something), I wrote a post about using a Lee Filters sample swatch in front of the lens (LIGHT SALMON, Lee #109). Someone replied and said why not just paint the screen pink! I pooh-pooh'd the idea at the time (remembering Cary Grant's pink submarine in Operation Petticoat).

Well, trying out some software (Filter Factory) I wrote for Photoshop to generate analogs of standard Color Correction ("CC") filters, I came upon a way of measuring the color of the light output from the AE700 with the White Balance function a digital camera (instead of the $4,000 gizmo that Cine4Home uses), inputting the projector screenshot (of a "50% Gray" screen) into Photoshop and then using my Filter Factory custom filter to change it from a cyanish tint to neutral gray. In conjunction with an Excel spreadsheet (to do the more sophisticated number crunching), it worked surprisingly well (in the rareified atmosphere of Photoshop). I could either correct the screen shot from the projector, or synthesise a filter with my Filter Factory program by just "filtering" a pure white image to get the base filter color.

The resulting color of the filter combination (a combo of magenta and yellow CC-type filters) was very close in appearance to the Lee filter "Light Salmon #109" that I'd originally picked by eye. Putting aside issues like ICC Profile matching and media mismatches (there's no Epson ICC profile for plain paper) the result was not bad at all. It looked quite plausible... at least on my calibrated, profiled Photoshop CRT screen.

How to get it into the projector's optical path from Photoshop?

Not having a couple of (expensive) CC-type filters available to actually affix to the lens of the projector, I suddenly realised (d'oh!) I could just print the pink color on paper with my inkjet printer (Epson 1270/90) and use that as my test screen. Going the whole hog, I printed a 2.35:1 mask as well.

The results were excellent with this pink screen (I was using the AE700's DYNAMIC mode, the brightest setting). The size of my initial test piece was only quite small, European "A3" (roughly equivalent to "B"), printed on plain paper to make it nicely matt. At this small size I also needed an ND filter to cut the light down by 2-stops.

Today, I had a much bigger print of my ready-masked, pink screen, done on a friend's large-format Epson, about 72 inches by 30 inches active area, plus a black mask (once again on matt, plain paper). It still worked well. After extra tweaking of the projector's color controls (because the whites, with a pink screen, start out pink of course, and you have to cancel that out), and changing the ND filter from a 2x to a 1x stop, the colors were very pleasing indeed. The zero-level blacks, in particular the top and bottom widescreen black bars, were quite startlingly blackish. The whites and highlights, after tweaking, were white, with no trace of pink from the screen. Naturally, when projected onto a white piece of paper for comparison, the whole image looked revoltingly green. But the pink screen worked a treat.

I found that as long as you don't set any of your brightness controls greater than "0", then the zero-black levels aren't affected: they stay crisp and much blacker than they would be without filtering.

I think it was both the color of the screen and the slight ND effect it had on the image that worked in combination to produce a good, contrasty picture. I actually had my CONTRAST and COLOR CONTRAST controls wound back into the minus areas to cut down on the brightness (which was overwhelming, even at 72-inches).

So, whoever it was who said, "Why not just paint the screen pink?" - it wasn't such a silly idea after all. It really works quite nicely. The trick is to find a way of getting the exact color of the filter onto a big piece of paper or other more robust screen material. Inkjet printer! Voila!

Having a six-foot inkjet-tinted screen working well (with no masking hassles, as the mask is just part of the TIFF file), I'd like to try one of those mural printers next and see how that goes.

My question to the assembled moral, social and technical wisdom of the Forum is: would you think I was a Girlie-Man with a pink screen?

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

My question to the assembled moral, social and technical wisdom of the Forum is: would you think I was a Girlie-Man with a pink screen?

We'll forgive your Girlie-maness *if* you post the procedure and spreadsheet you used, describing how to use your digital camera to obtain the corrected screen color, so some of us can replicate your work ;). Also, where can we buy/obtain your Filter Factory Photoshop plugin?

Nice theory on the Manual Aspect Ratio trick- hope it does eliminate the flashes.

Having just switched from a Dalite Model B pulldown screen to a new drywall screen painted Behr Silver Screen, I would suggest taking your inkjet printout to your local hardware store or home improvement store (ACO/ Home Depot/ Lowes in the states), and have them mix a batch of paint that matches your color-corrected screen sample. They all have the capability to scan/photosense the color on a computer and mix a matching paint.

I would also suggest using a 7-color inkjet printer to get the most accurate colors for the screen correction color printout.

Lastly, this discussion probably should be in the AE700 Tweaks thread...

P.S.- I wish I had patented this idea and process, as I have mentioned it several times to HT club members and others as a color correction method for digital projectors for the past several years (i.e. mixing a computed, calibrated, measured custom color to use as a screen color corrector). Thanks for working out the details of the process and sharing. Using a stock digital camera's white balance function as a colorimeter coupled with the appropriate software and inkjet printing is pure genius! Now, if your software tools could come up with the paint mixing formulas directly, we could bypass the printing step and input the mixing values to the automated paint mixing equipment at the Home Depot's/Lowes of the world...

TraderGordo: I can't see your screen captures. I wonder if you should start a new thread in the htpc forum?

Originally posted by Aussiewazza
I feel foolish asking this but:
I just got my 700 and Im running it with a toshibha sd5200 dvd player.
This is my first 16:9 project and I thought that a 16:9 dvd would fill the whole screen. At the moment I am throwing a 106 inch pic onto the screen but there are two unused sections aboult 4-5 inches high at the top and bottom. If I press the zoom1 it disapears and the full screen is used but the pic is out of proportion. If I hit zoom 2 the pic fill the screen but looses the edge detail


is there anyway to fix this the grey areas at the top and bottom are off putting


Sorry for the Low Tech qusetion

it could be a 2:35 DVD....not all widescreed dvd's are the same ratios. There is 1:78, 1:85 and 2:35 are the 3 most common. Check your dvd and play a 1:78 ratio dvd and it should fill the whole screen

Aussie Bob

So basically you're adjusting grayscale by changing the tint of the screen.

I know that with other bulb based displays, its advisable to wait at least a 100 hours before performing grayscale and color decoder adjustments. If you're not past that point, you might want to wait so you won't have to repaint it later.:D

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
The White Flashes aren't limited to Denon DVD decks. I have seen them with a Toshiba (PAL and NTSC source material), also off my PC, and also off television (PAL only).

In an attempt to combat the problem (and to try and isolate it) one of the things I did was to take the ASPECT RATIO menu item off AUTO and set it to MANUAL.

White Flashes haven't happened since (three days).

If changing from AUTO to MANUAL stops it, it may indicate that the problem is something to do with the s/w in the projector constantly monitoring the aspect ratio of the source material and getting it wrong occasionally as aspect ratio ID data is corrupted due to poor replay or a damaged disk. What I saw of the white flashes looked more like the projector was losing horizontal lock (trust me, I'm a scientist).

If the problem comes back, even in MANUAL, I'll come back and retract the above statement. Until then, sports fans....

Aussie Bob:

You may have something here.
The first 5 movies I watched on my 700 were perfect. Then I permanently installed the 700. At that time I went through the menu to do final adjustments. I think I then put the aspect ratio to AUTO. The next 5 movies had flashes.

My flashes are not like the ones others are experiencing (snowy) w/HDMI. Mine are more like you say “traditional loss of horizontal sync” or “losing horizontal lock”

However - my projector is in Illinois at the Panasonic Repair Facility - so I can’t test your theory until it’s returned. I sent it back to PP because of the flashes. They reported “no fault found” They then forwarded it to Illinois for me. I’ve been a bit depressed by all this as I only had about 35 hours on it. Boy I hope you are right and have found a (work-around) solution! Other than these flashes I LOVE my 700.

Are you really a scientist???

Here's the pictures: http://gheno.info/images.php?dir=support
I took one at an angle, one straight on, and one sideways just to make sure my camera didn't change any colors based on orientation.

I purchased directly from Panasonic so I don't think I'll be able to just take it back.

Originally posted by mrjag
.....While viewing a solid white screen, the top half is slightly pinkish and the bottom a light green. It is *very* subtle but definitely there and my wife confirmed seeing it also. I didn't notice the color issue until after I lowered the lamp level to low (which also lowered the fan level). Did I break something when the fan level went into low mode? (the room temperature is currently 69° F.) Should I send it in for warranty or is this normal during the initial hours? .....

mrjag,

I had posted earlier about same issue, with some screen shots showing the level of severity on B&W images. Maybe you can compare those photos to yours? (My setup is in ceiling mode, so color position is exact opposite of yours. Photos may also be slightly exaggerated in color due to digicam's tendency).

Since that post, I've played around a lot with color adjustments to try to reduce it, and now its a little less, but still noticible on uniform grey/ B&W scenes. Previously I had ramped up red too much.

Zooming has some effect, but still does not totally eliminate. I've yet to check effect of shifting lens to the other extreme end. Will post if I uncover anything.

I've decided to hold off returning the unit, until I can compare with another set (in my country, AE700 is yet to be on sale & I got mine from Japan so its gonna be expensive to ship back). Only when I'm sure that it's a defect on my set, will I return to dealer.

I suggest that you also check with another set (or more than one if possible), to help you decide if yours is faulty.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
"I think the best feature of HTPC is simply the movie organizer front end. " ... so many people are asking me about it... and I guess its relevant to AE700 owners trying to decide between an expensive stand alone DVD player and a HTPC...

The front end I am currently using to play DVDs is called "MyHTPC", which is free. The list of movies that show up in MyHTPC can be maintained with software that I wrote myself, I call it "MyMovieImport".

Trader Gordo - I am interested in this option. I don't mind tinkering, but don't want to buy a new $3-4 K media PC. How much hardware horsepower is needed? Can I re-purpose an older PC that isn't in service, and upgrade for use with the suite of applications that you describe? (If this discussion is more appropriate for an HTPC thread, we can continue in a different forum.)

Originally posted by AVGadgetBoy
mrjag,

I had posted earlier about same issue, with some screen shots showing the level of severity on B&W images. Maybe you can compare those photos to yours? (My setup is in ceiling mode, so color position is exact opposite of yours. Photos may also be slightly exaggerated in color due to digicam's tendency).


I know this is probably not the same problem, but I wanted to mention for the benefit of others that the horizontal and vertical position settings from the menu can cause strips of color to appear on the edges of the screen. I had previously suggested using these for fine tuning of position rather than the crude lens-shifing lever, but doing so leaves a stripe of green or noise outside the edge of the picture. I found that I had to adjust +2,+4 or so to eliminate these on my particular situation.

I case anyone else has the same color problem I am experiencing, I called Panasonic Technical Support and was told it probably needs to be re-calibrated and they gave me the number of a local field engineer to contact.

mrjag

By any chance, did you do the flicker adjustment??

Yes I did. I believe I'm using 23/27/23 (RGB) for the flicker settings. Should I reset those to defaults?

mrjag

Do the lines run parallel or perpendicular to where the banding was?

I think I'd at least try returning the projector to its original flicker setting to see if that makes a difference.

Generally, that looks like CA from a lens. Optics traditionally will have issues with high-contrast borders. It generally puts green on one side and red on the other.

The flicker adjustment hasn't made a difference and the problem doesn't really seem to be the same as vertical banding. Take a look at this angled picture (http://gheno.info/support/2.jpg) and you'll see that it is more of a cloudy fade of color ranging from light pink at the top left to a light green at the bottom right.

Dealing with Panasonic support has become interesting. I started out with the technical support number found on the back of the product manual and was referred to a field engineer. I ended up going back and forth between voice mail and tech support trying to track down one that was not on vacation. I eventually found one a few states over who referred me to a local service shop. The service shop immediately said they don't support calibrations for the PT-AE700U because it was a consumer model and they only handle industrial/professional products and referred me to the consumer tech support. The consumer tech support did some research and called me back saying although the model number "AE" signifies it is in the consumer line, they don't handle it and it is really an industrial/professional product.

So I've gone full circle now and went back to the industrial/professional Tech Support found on the back of the manual. I was again sent to the field engineer who sent me to the local service center. This time I didn't mention the model number and just that I needed to get a calibration done under warranty. They stopped me again saying that calibrations cannot be done as part of the warranty process.

Has anyone successfully dealt with the Panasonic Warranty process?

Originally posted by Spiky
Generally, that looks like CA from a lens. Optics traditionally will have issues with high-contrast borders. It generally puts green on one side and red on the other.

What is "CA" from a lens? Is it tunable or repairable?

Chromatic Aberation. No.

Originally posted by mrjag
What is "CA" from a lens? Is it tunable or repairable?
Chromatic aberration. Also know as lateral color shift. It’s a function of the optics design and coatings so it's not tunable or repairable but it may vary with mag (zoom) or posistion (shift)

Dave

Rgb,

"Filter Factory" comes packaged with Photoshop (at least up to v6, which is what I use). There's extensive documentation on it if you Google. The good thing about it is that you can concoct filters and test them on the fly (kinda like the old GW Basic). Then, when you get it right, you can compile the "code" into a proper "[name].8bf" filter. It's really a simple procedure, once you understand the basics.

The process I dreamed up is as follows:

* With your camera (I used a Nikon D100) you take a screenshot of the AE700 projecting a gray screen (I used Color Facts "50% Gray"). White Balance on the camera is set to "Sunlight". You use a gray screen because this simplifies the whole process (only one "color", but this color contains a supposedly equal mix of R, G and B).

*Then you load the screenshot into Photoshop. You will notice it is not "gray" (R, G and B values won't be the same)... more of a cyanish color. But you can read off the uncorrected individual R, G and B starting "gray" values from the screenshot (using the Photoshop "Histogram" function).

* These are input into the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet calculates the Color Correction (CC) filter from these values and gives you recommended filter values e.g. "CC10Y, CC20M" needed to change the "cyan" gray back to a "real" gray. The spreadsheet is really only used to convert the error into CC filter values. If all you want is the color of the filter for printing, the spreadsheet calculations can be incorporated into the Filter Factory filter. If you don't want to source and use actual filters in front of the lens, this is all you need.

* Back to Photoshop... the CC filter values are input to the Filter Factory filter with the "gray" screenshot loaded. It becomes "real" gray (but darker) with R, G and B now pretty-well equal across the image (there will be slight differences due to the "analog" i.e. camera-based sampling process). If (instead of the screenshot) you substitute a pure white image (R,G,B, = 255) as your base, you get the actual color of your filter instead. This is what can be printed with the inkjet printer.

Caveats:
The process described above has so many potentially unknown variables - camera exposure imponderables (do I use AUTO exposure, or MANUAL with an external light meter?... I tried both and got slightly different results), inkjet color inaccuracies, ICC profile mismatches, media (plain paper) mismatches with monitor, unknown or imperfect camera response to the continuous light spectrum - that I am reticent to provide details until I know it works with real glass (or plastic) filters in front of the lens (the "ultimate" test that takes the process out of a closed, Photoshop "loop"). It's very hard to find truly informative (i.e. "profound") information on the low-level nuts and bolts of how CC filters actually work, for example "what do 'CC' values really represent?" The terms used on websites I referred to are quite loose, or undefined in many cases (including Kodak's and Cokin's websites). I guess you're just supposed to "know" these details. Much (if not most) of the literature on filters is "artistic" in scope, and not technical at all. Hence, the idea of using a 7 color inkjet printer is probably several significant digits too precise for this process, as it stands.

In short, I'd like to remove or control some of the variables above before I put my a-- on the line over this process. The camera is NOT a colorimeter. The printer DOES have ICC profile problems with plain paper printing, to list just two of the things that trouble me. The results I got differed from the Cine4Home results: they had much more Blue in their color profile of the AE700. Was I wrong? Or them? Or is there variation between units? On the other hand, Cine4Home admit that their own process is imperfect. They plainly state that they still needed to post-tweak after the initial, gross adjustment with the filter. My process got me into the ballpark, but was it serendipity?

Give me a few days and I might be able to fix you up with something more concrete to work with. I wouldn't want you to think I was a Girlie-Man.

Our local hardware store here in Sydney is only a boutique establishment. It doesn't have a scanner, but some of the bigger ones in the chain do. That's not a bad idea of yours (to get the paint computer mixed). It would be cheaper than getting one of those inkjet murals made up (but harder to automatically incorporate a format mask into, which is one of the attractions of the inkjet printer process... no-mess-no-fuss widescreen masks!).


JimP,

My bulb is at 130 hours.

P.S. to Rgb,

Something I forgot to mention is that the screen "pink" values were HALF the calculated filter values i.e. the screen "pink" has to be LIGHTER than the calculated filter "pink". This is because reflected light passes through the screen "pink" twice: once on the way in, once on the way back out. Using a filter, the light only passes through the glass once, thus it needs to be twice as dark as the screen. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by dlarsen
Chromatic aberration. Also know as lateral color shift. It’s a function of the optics design and coatings so it's not tunable or repairable but it may vary with mag (zoom) or posistion (shift)

Dave So are you saying this is something that everyone has and that I should live with?

The field engineer has stepped up and taken ownership of my problem but said he will probably not be able to find a solution until next week. In the meantime I am supposed to avoid using the projector.

AussieBob

You're camera's white balance for daylight is probably closer to 5200 to 5500 degrees kelvin. That may explain why the cine4home arrangement which was probably based on D65 was bluer.

By chance, does your digital camera have user selectable white balance where you can enter 6500 K??

Anyone have the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD Explorer? I just got it today and it was set up on component. Everything looks good. HDMI to HDMI arrives later and although it shows up in the settings menu (as auto/hdmi) there is no picture, just the flashing HDMI letters.

I checked the video out and that is fine too. I can't guarantee that the cable is fine, but I don't think that it's the problem.

I had the SA 4200 hooked up via DVI to HDMi with no problems.

I've tried rebooting the box and restarting the STB but no luck. Any ideas?

So are you saying this is something that everyone has and that I should live with?
Yes, I believe most all lenses in a CE PJ will have some lateral color shift. It’s a question of degree and could vary somewhat unit to unit depending on manufacturing tolerances. It may be tough to distinguish CA from panel misalignment too. I’d guess my AE700 has about a pixel of panel misalignment and maybe just over a pixel of lateral color shift at some zoom/shift settings.

I plan to try a panel alignment once the newness/warranty wears off but I fear they may be heat-staked (soldered) to the x-cube kernel. It does kinda bug me when I have my face up to the screen but I can’t really notice it from >1.5 screen widths away so it’s not a show stopper and really no worse than most any other three path micro-displays I’ve seen.

BTW, I only commented on what CA was. Your pictures show more of a color non-uniformity issue to me. Not related to lens lateral color shift (CA) IMO. Yours does seem much worse than mine but mine is certainly not perfect.

Dave

Originally posted by tlink
Trader Gordo - I am interested in this option. I don't mind tinkering, but don't want to buy a new $3-4 K media PC. How much hardware horsepower is needed? Can I re-purpose an older PC that isn't in service, and upgrade for use with the suite of applications that you describe? (If this discussion is more appropriate for an HTPC thread, we can continue in a different forum.)

HTPC can cost about the same as a high end stand alone DVD player.
You do not need a top of the line machine, but I recommend a fast processor if you are going to do a lot of scaling & post processing.

I use a $350 Dell PowerEdge 400SC server with a $60 fanless Radeon 9600 video card and a $20 S/PDIFF optical out sound card for audio. Zoomplayer was $20, FFDShow is free, MyHTPC is free, the Nvidea video filters were $20. So we are talking under $500 for a very nice HTPC.

The AE700 really WOWS with high def content, so when HD-DVD becomes popular you will be able to just pop in a new drive instead of replacing stand alone DVD players. High def WMVHD content is also already available for HTPCs.

My family room is 11 x 20 and I am planning to put a 106 inch screen on the short wall (11feet). I have not purchased yet but I will soon.

I would prefer to put the projector on the corner (for aesthetic and furniture placement reasons) which would mean that the projector would be about 5 feet off the dead center of the room.

Is this too much to adjust for the Panny's lens shift capabilities and even if it can pull it off, how much pic quality would it suffer. Thanks

For those using a HTPC, and the projector is the only display device, check out VNC for control of that computer from another in the house. Pretty easy to setup, and great if you just want to set up a SageTV recording. Here is an what it looks like:

Picture of remote control (http://abpa.org/temp/htpc/htpcremote.jpg)

Aussie Bob,

I received my Lee Filters pretty quick. I'm an L200 owner now, but after playing with calibrating my L200 I'm keeping the filter for my next PJ which may be the AE700. I rather prefer the idea of using a filter. Its interesting what you are trying with colour calbrating and printing out, but I think a lens filter would work better in terms of uniformity. Just my guess. Camera bias aside, I do realize what you are trying to achieve. You are measuring and then trying to print out exactly what is needed to colour correct. Neat. What about still trying other lens filters?

John Ballentine,

However - my projector is in Illinois at the Panasonic Repair Facility - so I can’t test your theory until it’s returned. I sent it back to PP because of the flashes. They reported “no fault found” They then forwarded it to Illinois for me. I’ve been a bit depressed by all this as I only had about 35 hours on it. Boy I hope you are right and have found a (work-around) solution! Other than these flashes I LOVE my 700.

I'm wondering if its possible to "direct" Panasonic to the possible solution without having that result in pre-maturely sending your PJ back saying"yes, you were right, Manual setting fixed the problem". You want them to continue testing, and ideally, the AUTO setting shouldn't do what it does. Of course, us pioneers know that if we don't use the AUTO setting, and the manual setting cures the problem, then its a done deal.

Any luck with further testing using the MANUAL setting?

If the white flashes problem can be solved with the MANUAL setting vs AUTO, then that is awesome, at least you can get rid of that.

Next up....pixel cropping. If you can get rid of that, then you're really getting somewhere. Finally, for Panasonic S97 owners, if there is a firmware upgrade to fix macroblocking, then you're home free :cool:

Good work :)

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Rgb,


Give me a few days and I might be able to fix you up with something more concrete to work with. I wouldn't want you to think I was a Girlie-Man.

Our local hardware store here in Sydney is only a boutique establishment. It doesn't have a scanner, but some of the bigger ones in the chain do. That's not a bad idea of yours (to get the paint computer mixed). It would be cheaper than getting one of those inkjet murals made up (but harder to automatically incorporate a format mask into, which is one of the attractions of the inkjet printer process... no-mess-no-fuss widescreen masks!).


JimP,

My bulb is at 130 hours.

Wow! Thanks for sharing a rough cut of your procedure! Can't wait for your next installment.

Re: masks- you could always use flat black paint or felt with a painted surface, too.

Seeing how the computer controlled paint dyes are mixed at the local Home Depot really make me think of the custom color correction that could be accomplished using simple tools like you decribe.

This forum really shines at times... ;)

I can appreciate the efforts that aussie bob did with the color corrected screen, but wouldn't you be better off getting the grayscale corrected in the projector? Then you could still adjust for installation variances with all the difference screen materials that are available.

I was pleased to see Aussie Bob's comments about a possible workaround for the white flash issue (turning off the auto aspect ratio function, which I presume is a form of wide screen signalling?). Has anyone else had good results with this method?

Originally posted by Diseased Chicken
I was pleased to see Aussie Bob's comments about a possible workaround for the white flash issue (turning off the auto aspect ratio function, which I presume is a form of wide screen signalling?). Has anyone else had good results with this method?

Hey Bob -

that is a great suggestion but I can only adjust the aspect ratio using video, s-video, and component - but not with HDMI or PC mode; as I am only experiencing the white flash while using HDMI. How did you select aspect ratio in HDMI mode?

thanks-
Michael

Had a bad couple of hours today as I thought my Painted Screen technique had fallen over. Suffering from the Dreaded Lurgy at the moment, I have been running a temperature of up to 40 Celsius (over a hundred F). Interestingly, it's not the 'flu (I had my shots), but what the local pharmacist calls "a respiratory bug going around". One chap I know had it for TWO MONTHS and lost 15 kilos (35 pounds) in the middle three weeks. Anyway, I've come close to hallucinating in the past couple of days from the high temps. So, when I put up my Pink Wonder today it looked... well... pink. I mean really pink. Too bloody pink.

Thankfully, it turned out that I had put on my pink Lee Filter instead of the 1x ND. It was a case of the Pink leading the Pink. Replaced the filter with a proper gray one, and things looked much better. As good as last night, in fact.

JimP, you were right on the camera "Sunlight" WB issue. The "Sunlight" setting balances to 5200K. I had lost my manual and guessed, but it was something in the back of my mind, checking the camera's WB parameters. I eventually download a new copy from Nikon's website and checked it out. The "Overcast" setting (with an extra couple of minus clicks dialled in from the thumbwheel) delivers 6400K. Near enough. The result was 50Y and 50M. Halved, for the purposes of painting the screen, I made it 25Y and 25M, or - to avoid using two filters - you can just call this 25R. Still pink, but a little more pink than before. A single 20R or 30R filter (you can't get 25Rs) would be a neat solution, but as I haven't tried a filter yet (and hence don't know whether my calculations or the process I used are accurate enough), I'm not taking any responsibility for anyone out there blowing $40 on a CC20 or 30R filter. I just can't guarantee that the camera is a good enough colorimeter. But geez... wouldn't it be nice if it was?

Another thing you brought up, JimP, was, "...wouldn't you be better off getting the grayscale corrected in the projector?". Ah yes, wouldn't that be wonderful? But alas, it's literally impossible to do so. Here's why...

A perfect "no-signal black" out of the AE700 projectors (i.e. video or digital inputs all zero... R=0, G=0, B=0) has a cyan cast to it. This is due to the internal optics of the device, which are a combination of dichroic mirrors, polarising filters, polarisation retarders and right-angled prism pairs cemented together called "Polarising Beam Splitters" (PBS). PBSs either transmit through or reflect light off their middle diagonal, depending on the polarisation angle of the light in question. They are a kind of "light valve". Initially a particular color is transmitted through the prism pair. But, as it is transmitted, its polarisation flips (a characteristic of PBSs), so that, after it bounces off the target LCoS panel, it comes straight back along the same path. But because it's polarisation was flipped when it passed through the PBS the first time, this time it reflects of the internal surface, instead of passing back through the PBS. The light comes in on one path (from the bulb and dichroic splitters) and leaves by another: towards the lens.

Clear as mud, I know (the description really needs rather complex diagrams)... The bottom line is that, sadly, all these glass surfaces, coated or not, can't be either perfect reflectors or perfect transmitters of light. There are overlaps along the margins. Some light that's meant to be reflected isn't. It takes the "wrong" path and ends up cruelling the final picture by causing a sort of "noise" in the optical system from bouncing off lots of surfaces it isn't supposed to bounce off. Eventually, some of this "haze" makes it to the lens and gets projected. Same difference for some of the light that's meant to be transmitted. It's reflected instead. The errors and imperfections tend to compound, and you get a background "haze" of bluey-green light, washed over everything. This means that even if the projector THINKS it's outputting a "no-signal black" (and it may well have been pretty black directly off the LCoS panel), there will always be some "setup" level of "grayish" haze washed over the image. The higher frequencies - blues and greens - tend to show up more, simply because there's less red in the original light from the bulb. If there was more red from the lamp, then the "haze" would be a nice, uniform, neutral... gray. You have to get rid of this wash outside the projector's optical system, because any attempts to do it internally will only result in more gray haze. By putting a filter after the lens, or painting the screen a complementary color to the excess "haze", you achieve the desired result. Both these techniques technically darken the overall lumen output of the PJ, but they increase the contrast between the darkest darks and the lightest lights the device can output. This is not just doing what gray screens do -darkening the whole image and improving perceived contrast. It is the real thing. A real improvement in contrast, at the expense of a slightly darker overall lumen level.

Parenthetically, Cine4Home claim that the filter process does NOT reduce brightness. In their dreams it doesn't!!! It does: by reducing the excess blue-green haze down to negligable levels you reeuce lumen output, but the picture is really more watchable and enjoyable to view.

Terribly complicated explanation, I know, but LCoS-based optical systems will always have this "haze" (so will any other type of optical system, to greater or lesser degrees, including DLP systems... but for different reasons which I'm not going to go into here).

Again parenthetically, the good news on the horizon is that some smart guys have invented a new kind of coated filter called a "ColorSwitch" that, when incorporated into LCos projector optical systems, allows the removal of a goodly amount of the reflecting surfaces in those LCoS systems. Hence, the potential for "hazing" is reduced. They are claiming real, actual, Truly-Ruly 1500:1 contrast ratios out of the box with no bells or whistles like dynamic apertures etc. Unfortunately, these gizmos may be in the NEXT generation of LCoS projectors. For the moment we're stuck with the penultimate generation while the manufacturers sort out their deal with the ColorSwitch guys.

Michael, you can't select aspect ratios in "PC" mode. That's why you need to mask the image: to get rid of those hazy, dark gray bars top and bottom of a Cinemascope ratio picture.

Aussie Bob:

I actually understand what you're saying. ;)

I was making a comparison to my Sony GWIII which is a rear projector LCD where I can adjust the drives and cuts to eliminate (as far as I can tell) the original color shift in the grayscale of the lower IRE levels. Visually, I don't notice a cyan shift at video black which would be no signal and just the light leakage through the polarizers/optical block.

I see your point though. Even at the lowest light output through the Panny, the polirizers/optical block may still have a uncorrectable color bias. So basically you're correcting this on the screen rather than by using a filter. Would be interesting to find how to adjust the cuts and drives on the panny and see how much of the color shift is correctable in the projector. My guess is that red is probably already maxed out so going the filter/screen color route are the only viable alternatives.

Hope you get over your fever, that is, unless you come up with these very creative approaches only while you're ill. Then..... ;)

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Parenthetically, Cine4Home claim that the filter process does NOT reduce brightness. In their dreams it doesn't!!! It does: by reducing the excess blue-green haze down to negligable levels you reeuce lumen output, but the picture is really more watchable and enjoyable to view.


Bob,

Actually that was NOT what Ekkehart said.

He said that by chosing the much brighter VIDEO mode over the more correct CINEMA or NATURAL, and then using a filter you can get both correct colours and more light than using CINEMA and NATURAL modes and better contrast.

Originally posted by djMichael
Hey Bob -

that is a great suggestion but I can only adjust the aspect ratio using video, s-video, and component - but not with HDMI or PC mode; as I am only experiencing the white flash while using HDMI. How did you select aspect ratio in HDMI mode?

thanks-
Michael

Bob's flashes (and mine) are different from the HDMI flashes you and others are experiencing.

Aussie Bob,
How many movies have you watched with no flashes since switiching aspect ratio to "Manual ???"

Aussie Bob,

Your calculated filter result is identical to a filter used by someone who has done calibration on the AE700. This guy also came up with a CC25R filter. I don't know if he actually uses a CC25R filter.
Check out his results:

<<updated: sorry for the wrong URL>>
http://www.salvechris.de/html/panasonic_pt-ae_700.html
(you'll need a German-to-English translation)

BTW. Can you post your projector settings for your calibration? (has it changed since your original post?) Do you have any way of measuring your calibrated contrast ratio? lumenescence(sp?)?

Its very exciting that people are "tuning" in on the AE700's full potential.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

JimP, you were right on the camera "Sunlight" WB issue. The "Sunlight" setting balances to 5200K. I had lost my manual and guessed, but it was something in the back of my mind, checking the camera's WB parameters. I eventually download a new copy from Nikon's website and checked it out. The "Overcast" setting (with an extra couple of minus clicks dialled in from the thumbwheel) delivers 6400K. Near enough. The result was 50Y and 50M. Halved, for the purposes of painting the screen, I made it 25Y and 25M, or - to avoid using two filters - you can just call this 25R. Still pink, but a little more pink than before. A single 20R or 30R filter (you can't get 25Rs) would be a neat solution, but as I haven't tried a filter yet (and hence don't know whether my calculations or the process I used are accurate enough), I'm not taking any responsibility for anyone out there blowing $40 on a CC20 or 30R filter. I just can't guarantee that the camera is a good enough colorimeter. But geez... wouldn't it be nice if it was?

I have a week-old AE700 with around 30 hours on it. In addition to the VB which varies from bad to mild, I have what seems to be a different issue as well. All content from all sources appears to flicker - by this I mean the brightness seems to be constantly shifting. In an effort to separate this effect from the source material, I went into the service mode and brought up the test patterns. The test patterns all exhibit this same constant fluctuation. For example, if you bring up the first test pattern (the lightest gray) and just leave it on the screen, the light output is clearly fluctuating. You can leave the room and stand in the hall and you can easily tell that the light coming out of the room is constantly changing without looking at the screen. Also, if you go to the 2 darkest gray patterns, you can see the vb lines fade in and out in a cyclical fashion if you just leave the pattern on the screen.

I tried unplugging every other device in the room and moving the pj to a different room but in both cases there was no improvement. I also have an LCD projection TV which does not exhibit this at all. It seems to me that if a test pattern cannot be displayed without this fluctuation, then any material you show would exhibit the same fluctuations in brightness.

I contaced my dealer and they are going to get back to me, and I will call Panasonic as well, but I would feel much better if some of the people here would confirm that this doesn't sound right.

Not right.
Maybe a bad bulb.

If anyone in Toronto would like to see an AE700 in action, please have a look at the Toronto meet thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4705944

Great explanation Bob, except that the AE700 is not an LCOS device which as you described is reflective wherein the Panasonic utilizes LCD panels which are transmissive.

ted

Originally posted by audiomaniac
Bob,

Actually that was NOT what Ekkehart said.

He said that by chosing the much brighter VIDEO mode over the more correct CINEMA or NATURAL, and then using a filter you can get both correct colours and more light than using CINEMA and NATURAL modes and better contrast.

Agreed completlely, and if I recall Ekkehart was surprised at the result but gave a reasonable explanation. The VIDEO mode is the one to colour correct to get the most effective results.

ted

Originally posted by jferris
I have a week-old AE700 with around 30 hours on it. In addition to the VB which varies from bad to mild, I have what seems to be a different issue as well. All content from all sources appears to flicker - by this I mean the brightness seems to be constantly shifting. In an effort to separate this effect from the source material, I went into the service mode and brought up the test patterns. The test patterns all exhibit this same constant fluctuation. ....

... I would feel much better if some of the people here would confirm that this doesn't sound right.

One possibility I could think of is that the dynamic iris may be having a problem. Try switching off the dyanmic iris and see if the fluctuation stops.

John and AVGadgetboy thanks for the responses. AVGadgetboy, I forgot to mention that I did try turning off dynamic iris as well, but thanks for that suggestion. I turned off any features I could find like Cinema Reality in an effort to isolate the problem, without any luck.

jferris, Have done the flicker tweak? That is what it is on the menu for....

I finally was able to watch using HDMI/DVI and didn't notice any white flashes from AE-700 and an all region DVI DVD player. Watched LOTR:TT, Hero, several Friends episodes and no white flashes whatsoever. Below is the DVD player I used (very cheap DVI dvd player and all region to boot)

http://www.primepc.jp/goods/share.php?contents=tw-3218&m=n

and the 15 ft. Arvel HDMI/DVI connector (very good quality cable)
http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.arvel.co.jp/cable/mmedia/media/dhmvic10.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Darvel%2Bhdmi%2Bdvi%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

zxlr8, Yes I have adjusted the flicker in the menus, but I should have specified that. The flicker visible in those RGB screens when the settings are wrong is a different flicker than the one I am seeing. The flicker on the RGB screens is what most people would normally call "flicker" and I am able to eliminate that. The flicker visible on the RGB screens, when incorrectly set, repeats at a set rate. Even when there is no flicker of that type within the RGB screens, this light fluctuation still exists.

The problem I am having, although I describe it as "flicker" (for lack of a better term) is different in that it is a random change in the light output, and is unaffected by any changes to the flicker menu. It is not a set repeating pattern of flicker that you would see in the flicker menu.

Perhaps I should refer to this as unstable brightness or light output.

Well that is perplexing. That definitely sounds like a bulb problem. When you call Panasonic, tell them to fix the pixel cropping in HDMI as well.

Sounds very much like a bad bulb at best, or a bad power supply at worst. Get a RA number.

Have any HTPC owners tweaked ffdshow for DVD and other media for the 700? I am new to ffdshow but would like to see what others are using for settings.
Is anyone resizing to larger than 1280x720 and is this a good idea at all (letting the 700 downconvert)?

I dont think the 700 is downsmapling, the video card is. Supersample up in ffdshow, then output to your vid card is how I understand it.

Originally posted by anjony
I would prefer to put the projector on the corner (for aesthetic and furniture placement reasons) which would mean that the projector would be about 5 feet off the dead center of the room.

Is this too much to adjust for the Panny's lens shift capabilities and even if it can pull it off, how much pic quality would it suffer. Thanks

The lens shift doesn't affect picture quality; it's just moving the lens around inside a small window, causing the picture on the far wall to move a correspondingly larger distance (but not 5 feet larger). The horizontal shift is only 24%, so we're talking maybe 5 feet at a 21 foot throw distance, and also the window is diamond shaped, such that at the extreme horizontal disallows extremes in the vertical and vice versa. Like shift, the optical zoom doesn't seem to affect picture quality other than any artifacts incumbent in a larger size, so I think a further throw distance doesn't buy you much in that department. For the aesthetics of the picture (which I value far above those of the room ;) ) it is preferable to have the camera centered. My throw is only about 13 feet, so I tried to put my projector dead center from the screen, which gives me only a foot or two of leeway on the shift practically speaking (without hitting the extremes), and it still took quite a while turning the projector to square it with the wall, and then locking it down and making fine adjustments with the lever to get it centered on the screen but not rotated (rolled), and not trapezoidal in the horizontal dimension (yawed). I measured the projected light squre with a tape measure to make sure I had it right. The pj has a keystone correction for up-down rotation(pitch), but nothing else. Even so, it's better not to use too much keystone, and you're limited to 30 degrees for the health of the pj in any case, so I tried to make it as level as possible. To improve room aesthetics, I ended up running conduit along the ceiling to contain the power and the 3 strands of 16-foot monster THX component cable. For this reason alone, hdmi may be the way to go, so you can use a smaller conduit.

Update: The 25% is a percentage of the screen width, not the throw distance. This makes the correctability even smaller. With a screen size of 8 feet, you can get about 2 feet of adjustment either way, which matches my experience. The throw distance will depend on the optical zoom factor to create an 8 foot screen, ranging from about 11 feet to about 22 feet.

Originally posted by bfahle
I would prefer to put the projector on the corner (for aesthetic and furniture placement reasons) which would mean that the projector would be about 5 feet off the dead center of the room.

Is this too much to adjust for the Panny's lens shift capabilities and even if it can pull it off, how much pic quality would it suffer. Thanks

I currently have the projector off-center by about that amount, shelf-mounted by about 16 feet back. The flexibilty in placement is one of the design features of the AE700 that distinguishes it from comparable projectors, and was a factor in my purchase decision.

An open passageway / doorway required off-center placement to keep it out of the path of traffic. I found that as the lens shift approaches the extreme end of the range, it appears as though there may be slight geometric distortion (less than 0.1 % of a 100 inch screen). This was not discernable at a normal viewing distance in this installation.

re: AE700 bulb life issue:

According to
http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2004.htm

The Panasonic AE700 has a bulb life of 5000hrs!

I would assume that is at low lamp mode 100% of the time (?).

I am a proud owner of the pany 700 and just love the PQ on this projector especially the HD content from Dish network. I prevously rented the Infocus 4805 from Costco while I patiently waited for this projector.
I also have a pany DVD 97S and using the 30M HDMI to HDMI cable from Lindy. As for VB, I am fortunate not to see any so far. Maybe its there but I try not to look too hard before my imagination gets the better of me. I am projecting onto a Dalite Model C 110in diagonal which is roughly 18 Ft away. I am using some of the setting which I stole off from the Tweak thread and I like the "normal mode". However, I need some help from you guys

First thing...this might be a dumb question, but how do you guys take screen shot with a digital camera that has a flash. All that I am able to see is a white screen. I took the pic that with and without the room lights on and same result.

Is it mandatory to wait for the bulb to cool when switching off the projector if you are not going to put it back on right away. I do not want to leave it in standby mode for fear of VB.

MY "WWS" option is greyed out/not visible..when does this option turns itself on? Does it have to be HD content before it is turned on?

How do you go about purchasing filters?...or is that only offered by someone who is professional in calibrating projectors.

Originally posted by mike1005


First thing...this might be a dumb question, but how do you guys take screen shot with a digital camera that has a flash. All that I am able to see is a white screen. I took the pic that with and without the room lights on and same result.



I havent taken screenshots myself, but anytime you want to take pics in the dark, first thing you do is turn OFF the flash. Also, rest the camera on a solid surface to avoid shakes at slow shutter speed. If your camera has bulb setting, you might want to play around with that as well. But usually just turning off the flash works..

Check your manual. A digital camera usually has the ability to disable the flash, you just need to find it in the menu. I did that and it worked pretty good.

Originally posted by mike1005


Is it mandatory to wait for the bulb to cool when switching off the projector if you are not going to put it back on right away. I do not want to leave it in standby mode for fear of VB.



While it isn't mandatory to let your bulb cool down, it is HIGHLY recommended as it will extend your bulb life considerably. Heat is the biggest issue with these bulbs and if it isn't allowed to cool down after use, you are likely to lose the bulb much much sooner than you would like or expect with proper cool down.

I've found the cooldown phase is only 3 minutes at worst, and usually shorter though I've never timed it.

Is there a way to stretch 2:35 anamorphic DVD's with the ae700 so a panamorph lens can be used? I figured you would be able to do it with one of the aspect ratio modes, but it looks like these modes are disabled when using 720p or 1080i signals (says as much in the manual). I was hoping to do this without using a htpc to scale...but looking at what Trader is doing using a low end powerEdge....a low cost htpc might not be soo bad.



Thanks,

John

Running a HTPC through DVI to HDMI here with the Panny.

I have tried various resize options in Ffdshow and dont notice much difference. 1280 by 720 seems as sharp (maybe sharper but that could be my imagination) than other sizes i have tried such as 1440 by 1152 (PAL here). I just do 3d noise reduction then a resize with luma sharpen. The picture doing this is as sharp and detailed as i have ever seen DVD look through my AE700. It blows away normal progressive dvd feed.

I might add im using the dscaler 5 decoder. Seems to work well with the latest ffdsow release. Additionally using vmr9 and yv12 throughout the chain seemed to give far more shadow detail than any other option.

Overall i am extremely happy with the result. Oh and btw never a white flash yet :)

jmck407

I know for sure that the aspect ratio feature is disabled when a DVI/HDMI 720 or 1080 signal is received.

What you're suggesting is a pretty good idea though. Just wonder how costly the HTPC and lens combo would run.

Jim,

Yeah it is disabled with component also. Was hoping there may have been some option/trick or service mode setting that might get by it. While searching on this I saw ae300 users mention that horizontal stretch for panamorph use could be done via one of the zoom modes, but this may have been because it had a lower native res. I wonder if there is some technical reason why 720p or 1080i can't use the aspect modes....anyone use the aspect ratio modes in 720p with a ae500 (native 720p)....MadPoet, I saw you tried the ae500 with a panamorph briefly, did you use a scaler?



Using Trader's post as a guideline and getting the new low end panamorph from VSI/IMS, cost will probably be < $1200. Don't think Trader listed scaler software in his htpc list, so would need to add this. I bought the panamorph from the AVS powerbuy, so already put out half the cost.

John

jmck407

Seems like I've heard before that its presumed that a 720p or 1080i picture is HDTV whose spec is 16:9. I guess they didn't figure in these upconvert DVD players.

Wonder if using a scaler wouldn't work better in that it could be used for other sources besides just DVD. I'm hooked up to Voom satellite and they've gone to original aspect ratio on their broadcast which leave the expected black bars above and below.

Tvted said: "Great explanation Bob, except that the AE700 is not an LCOS device which as you described is reflective wherein the Panasonic utilizes LCD panels which are transmissive.".

You're absolutely correct Ted.

No wonder there's so much scope for improvement in this device! The LCD panels aren't perfectly opaque themselves, and the AE700 still uses a dichroic prism block to combine all the primaries, plus a suite of dichroic mirrors. So, as you say, the explanation for the blue haze is basically correct, but I did get the type of LC panel wrong. Point taken.

Robert, the audiomaniac, also corrected me when he said: "... Actually that was NOT what Ekkehart [from Cine4Home] said. He said that by chosing the much brighter VIDEO mode over the more correct CINEMA or NATURAL, and then using a filter you can get both correct colours and more light than using CINEMA and NATURAL modes and better contrast.".

True again, upon re-reading the article. Let's put it down to me using Babelfish. All those convoluted German phrases... one of them escaped me. I did read elsewhere on his site (once again with Babel) in a more general article he wrote that removing the excess color "haze" wasn't really reducing brightness as it was wasted light anyway. I was confusing the general with the particular.

My point was that the contrast can be genuinely improved, at the cost of some - but not too much - brightness, by the use of filters and tweaking afterwards.

More generally, Cine4Home and Thomas Klaus's websites utilise expensive software and hardware to get their results. Cine4Home doesn't tell the reader what those results were (in terms of which filter to use and which settings to tweak afterwards), because they want to make money out of calibrating your projector for you. Bad luck if you don't live in Europe. Klaus (who seems to think a CCxxR filter is suitable) goes into much more detail, apparently out of the goodness of his heart, bless him.

Both pay a lot of attention to IRE levels (IRISH? levels), exact gamma measurements and formal video standards, and we wish it had behoved Panasonic to do the same in the first place. Of course, nothing will save a crappy telecine transfer of an old film that's gone a bit blue, so standards have only a limited use from the average viewer's (i.e Her Rolling Pin's) standpoint. There is only so much tweaking that our spouses will put up with before they confiscate the remote control and hide it somewhere.

We have to make a decision, based on some understanding of the principles involved, limited equipment that we may be lucky to have at hand, and the patience of the Viewing Spouses Of The World with seeing the AE700 menu superimposed over most all of the films they watch alongside you, on just how far we can go being anal about all this. My wife says she likes Indiana Jones And the Gamma Menu Of Doom much better than Lawrence Of Color Management now that she's had the chance to watch them both two-hundred and ninety-six times. And she was thrilled to find out, after I fell asleep on the sofa a few nights ago, that there is more than just one scene in Master & Commander ... you know the one I mean... with the fog bank in it... that shows up the VB so well?

Let's go back to basics: as a starting point, use the Lee Filters "Light Salmon" #109, or a mild red CC20 to 30 filter (the Lee filter can be obtained for free), or even an Ilford Multigrade Printing Paper filter (Grades 1 and 4 filters are pretty close, by Her Rolling Pin's eye). Or paint your screen an approximation to any of these colors if you want to. Run the PJ in "Dynamic" or "Video" modes. Wind the sharpness back a few notches (these modes accentuate sharpness). Leave the contrast at roughly "0", and the brightness too (maybe a tad under according to taste). Experiment with the Low and Mid gamma curves. Reduce the pink cast the filter/screen produces by lowering red contrast and perhaps red brightness sliders. This will affect flesh tones, as the errors are not constant across all brightness levels. So you'll have to tweak flesh tones with Color Management, using several reference colors.

As I suspect there is significant difference between individual units, that's all I'm prepared to say for sure at this juncture. Try it!

Eventually you'll find something that pleases everyone, has good blacks, good contrast and reasonable colors. Don't be too discouraged if your calibration works with one movie and not another. This is Life invading your living room and deliberately wrecking your best-laid plans, as Life is meant to do. The reason is probably that the telecine operator was drunk, or the copy of the film was faded, or both. The projector will show up inconsistencies between films, sharpening excesses and so on more than your TV will. But then again, your TV screen isn't a hundred-and-twenty inches across, is it? It's puny compared to your projector. That's why you bought the projector. Right? We're enlarging a 700x500 (roughly, depending on TV standard) MPEG-compressed anamorphic video image - a whole 350k pixels if we're lucky - up to the size of a barn door and we want perfection? For $2,000 dollars? Fuggedabowdit! Even 720i HD pictures come in at less than a megapixel.

We're here to have some fun and watch some neat movies, on a cheap, entry-level projector. The Germans and the kibbitzers can watch our posts silently and then strike with precisely guided negative waves every time someone says something wrong, or they deviate from (or horror, ignore!) accepted SMPTE standards. They'll never enjoy their projectors, not while they can complain about VB, White Flashes, color impurities across the screen, 20 pixels cropped off a 1280x768 PC signal, too much edge enhancement, malignant HDMI cables, or deriving masochistic pleasure from sending their units back to Panasonic for replacement and repair.

The basic idea is to get your projector tuned to a degree that pleases you, so that each film you run on it looks pretty good with your tuning adjustments. That, and to remain alive, to avoid being a victim of the Battered Video Wives' Syndrome and to escape being buried in a shallow grave under the house along with the projector, the leaf blower and the remote control.

Aussie Bob

Very well said.

We are talking about a $2k projector that happens to work as well as many more expensive ones.

Put much more succinctly than I ever could, Jim.

Originally posted by jmck407

Using Trader's post as a guideline and getting the new low end panamorph from VSI/IMS, cost will probably be < $1200. Don't think Trader listed scaler software in his htpc list, so would need to add this. I bought the panamorph from the AVS powerbuy, so already put out half the cost.

John

Most of us use FFDShow, and its free. Lots of info (too much!) on its settings over in the HTPC forum. My advice is to keep it simple. Scale to native res, and don't go crazy with bogus sharpening algorithms or other post processing that tricks you into thinking you have a better picture when you really just distorted the picture.



FFDShow tutorial (too much sharpen tho) (http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1)

Call me a moronic chicken, but I'm still a wee bit confused over this whole white flash/aspect ratio issue. Put simply is there any correlation whatsoever between turning off auto aspect ratio control, and the white flashes seen over an HDMI connection?

Me too. I'd like to dance the funky chicken after finding out that some or all of the HDMI issues have been solved.

So does using HDMI and the MANUAL setting eliminate the flashes? I'm thinking there seems to be two different types of flashes? Have we eliminated one of them? Both? How?

I'm not going to call you a moronic chicken, I don't care how much you insist :)

AussieBob was too busy dealing with the irrelevant stuff :D and didn't answer the question about the connection between aspect ratio and the "white flash"

Seriously, now: As far as I know, one can't adjust the aspect ratio (and many other settings) when using HDMI. I'm speculating, maybe setting the aspect ratio to manual over other connections has an impact on the HDMI input??? Maybe setting the aspect ratio to manual on the DVD player has eliminated the flash in his case? Eating colorful vegetables also helps?

Note to forum mod: The knowledgeable people (the jet set of AVS that I clearly don't belong to) here have found quite a few solutions for some issues with the AE 700. Maybe some of these advices/experiences should be added to the tweak thread. Or start a sticky thread with the list of solutions for avoiding VB, HDMI cropping, white flashes, etc...

No one here but us moronic chickens, getting pecked to death... BwaaarrrrRRRKKKk! buk! buk! buk! (to Miss Prissy music)

The White Flashes haven't re-appeared since switching to MANUAL aspect ratio. Day five, and counting.

In case The Watchers are reading this: I'm not saying it works. I'm just saying the WFs haven't occurred since I made the change. Not that they occurred too often before that, either. I also wear a garlic necklace and keep a dried dead cat in the top drawer of my office desk. I never walk under ladders and don't break mirrors. About the only superstition I'm not suckered by is religion. This is because I wear CC90R Rose Colored glasses at all times (not just when I'm watching movies).

What happens when you watch the 13th DVD since the last tweak? ... lol.. AAaaaa!! What is your source player again? So many people, so many posts, so much equipment, too many variables. Life is busy and my brain gets full :p

Anyone else with feedback about the white flashes and the MANUAL setting?

Originally posted by Nolan Cromwell

Note to forum mod: The knowledgeable people (the jet set of AVS that I clearly don't belong to) here have found quite a few solutions for some issues with the AE 700. Maybe some of these advices/experiences should be added to the tweak thread. Or start a sticky thread with the list of solutions for avoiding VB, HDMI cropping, white flashes, etc...

I tried to create an unofficial tweak compilation here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4606637#post4606637

But since the post is not at the top of the thread, and its not a sticky, I don't think many people have noticed... :(