Originally posted by rogo
The Panasonic is much closer to a DLP black.
DLP blacks? Is this a means to describe black as a conclusion that one can never reach CRT blacks in the digital realm, or that too few people in the digital forums have ever seen a CRT projector to be able to comprehend what black can truly be? I almost spit-up my coffee this morning.

Mike Versteeg, if you like the deep blacks where is represents an almost absence of light have you tried using a neutral density filter to lower the brightness so that 0-IRE is black, or no light? I would think that using a gray-based screen material you are probably already taking a hit on the upper-IRE in terms of brightness anyway.

Nice reviews guys, thanks! :)

Bear in mind that this and the Sony are, in effect, generation 1 of a new class of LCDs. At least in the case of the Panasonic, they are using Epson D4 panels and the significantly improved D5 is only a few months off from full production at this point and may already be in the hands of projector manufacturers in prototype quantity or will be so shortly. So there's room for further improvement here in relatively short order. This may apply more to the Panasonic and anyone else using Epson panels than to other mfgs.

Just a comment--I started out using a Greyhawk, 0.94 gain, screen on my LCD. I found the Firehawk, 1.3+ gain, drastically improved subjective perception of contrast and black. So it will be very interesting to see if this projector behaves similarly to older LCDs in that regard.

I doubt LCD will ever reach the point where it can satisfy those who view absolute black and very high CR as non negotiable. However, with this level of performance and pricing, a whole new market will be opened up for FP by projectors like this. Very exciting stuff IMHO.

And don't forget that Canon has apparently broken the price barrier in LCoS as well. Can't imagine they wouldn't follow their LCoS business projector with an HT one in relatively short order.

Dan

Thank you for your review on the 700. I am also ready to pull the trigger on a pj and have narrowed it down to the Sony HS51 and the Panny 700.
Looking forward to someones detailed review of the Sony.

Someone really needs to do a H2H on the hs51 and the 700!

Originally posted by PAP
Someone really needs to do a H2H on the hs51 and the 700! H2H?

Head to Head

Oh, a shootout! Will this be ablind or double-blind H2H?

Umm... I think it is just theoretical at this point. No one even has an HS51.

Man, I was pretty certain coming out of CEDIA that I wanted the HS51. But, now considering it will probably cost $800 more street, I am starting to re-think that decision. Hrmmm...

Well, at least I have it narrowed down to 2 choices. That'sa big relief in itself.

reap

Originally posted by TheFerret
DLP blacks? Is this a means to describe black as a conclusion that one can never reach CRT blacks in the digital realm, or that too few people in the digital forums have ever seen a CRT projector to be able to comprehend what black can truly be? I almost spit-up my coffee this morning.


LOL! The poor digital trogs will never know what true black is... or soon what an uncompressed audio track sounds like or the melodious sounds of a tube amp. The horror!

My concern, JP, was that is you educate people to assume DLP blacks are the best (lowest BL) then there is no reason why manufacturers of DLP, LCD and LCoS to go beyond what is already there.

Ferret, I don't think that rogo was implying that DLP blacks are the best, just a step above LCD. Don't twist his words. He simply compared the LCD black level to that of DLP, nothing more.

Now that my original thread has been rudely closed down:), I guess I will have to post here

Last night 5 0r 6 members of the forum came over to my house to get a demo of the Panny 700. I would like to thank them for coming and helping me with the review.

First of all for the money the projector is great. The picture is incredible and screendoor is almost non existant until you great really close to the screen

In HD viewing, the picture is stunning all around, but I already told you that

With Standard dvds, the picture is still good but not perfect

Black levels although good could still be better. The Dynamic Iris does make a big difference. We pause the D-Theater tape and dvd at a dark scene and turned off the dynamic IRIS and you could definitely tell the difference. Not only was the blacks better with it on, but detail was also better. On a related note, you can put the bulb on low mode when in dynamic iris mode, but it wont do anything. Only when the Dynamic IRIS is off and the bulb is put into low mode does the bulb actually go into low mode

Vertical Banding.- It exist on the projector although it is slight and not really noticiable unless you are looking for it. In really depends on the dvd. Ironically some who has the 500 brought Das Boot which always brings out VB on his projector but could see none on the 700. However, with Star Wars IV, on Tatoonie desert (however its spelled) we were able to see it. It was virutally none existant in HD, saw a little bit on some other dvds and nothing on others. We all agreed that even with it, it was so slight, that it didnt mess the picture.

FNP - Again, it exists in the projector but it is again slight and virtually unnoticable in the picture. We saw it again in the Star Wars movie, but we aso saw the FNP using the same DVD on my JVC G11

Pretty much everyone who came was very impressed with the projector especially since there were people sitting seven to eight feet away and they couldnt see any pixels or screendoor.

The DVD player was connected using DVI and it looked like that connection made the picture brighter than usual. After playing with contrast and brightnes and some of the gamma settings, we were able to get the picture looking really good. One prime example was the dvd of Raiders of the Lost Ark. It looked excellant after made some adjustments. It helped that we had a 500 owner who knew the ins and outs of the pansonic projectors

As far as we can tell there is no control for AI, we think its part of the Dynamic Iris control

We also played ED Wood, which is a black and white films for those who dont know. Again, it looked very good. The only slight problem we found was that some of the credits had a green tinge to it. We suspect that the panels were somewhat misaligned. I will be honest, I would have never noticed it, but the person who did is a photographer by trade and a Black and White fan so he has a great grasp for that field


Is the projector perfect,of course not, but neither are the 10,000 projectors we also sell. For the money, I dont think there is anything better out there right now

,
I am sure I have forgetton some stuff so if you ask me now Iwill try to answer any questions you may have (assuming I know the answer)

Wow, another great review of the AE700. I think the most important line of the whole review for me is:

"We all agreed that even with it [Vertical Banding], it was so slight, that it didnt mess the picture."

So, now, the only thing that Sony has to offer over the AE700 is better blacks. The 700 is sounding better and better all the time.

reaper

Dan - What did you think of the Fan noise with the projector on High Lamp mode w/ the Dynamic iris?

Daniel--- Regarding the SW Tatooine scene you referred to:

How would you rate the viewability of that scene overall? I find those scenes bring out the absolute worst on my Z2. It's not just the banding, but more the fixed panel noise and screen door that just makes the bright blue sky and white sand a mess to loook at. Every negative LCD attribute becomes apparent.

Personally, I just cringe and wait for the scene to change as quickly as possible.... and wish I had LCOS.

Originally posted by reaper
So, now, the only thing that Sony has to offer over the AE700 is better blacks. The 700 is sounding better and better all the time.
You mean 'may offer', or has it already been established that the 51 does offer better blacks?
Daniel, thanks for the review. Since you cannot use the eco mode, is there a way to turn down the light to get good black in a darkened room, ie kill the extra light in some other way. I assume there is no manual iris control that overrides the dynamic (like a max. aperture)?

Daniel, have you seen the Infocus SP 5000 up close? How would you rate the AE700 compared to it?

Daniel, what DLP projectors would you compare the performance of this projector to, in terms of black-levels?

Exactly... may offer. Agreed.
My impression from CEDIA was that it (51) DID offer better blacks, but I am no expert. We'll see what the more experienced say.

reaper

Originally posted by Daniel Hutnicki
On a related note, you can put the bulb on low mode when in dynamic iris mode, but it wont do anything. Only when the Dynamic IRIS is off and the bulb is put into low mode does the bulb actually go into low mode


Daniel,
Thanks for the reviews - very insightful.

Can you clarify the above statement for me? On a British forum the reviewer suggested that the Iris could be used in Dynamic Mode, so my question is, once the bulb goes into low mode are you then able to turn on the dynamic iris or does it remain inactive?

Another question is in the high luminance mode is there enough brightness to allow for the usage of an ND or preferably a CC filter to lower blacks?

ted

I'm a little confused now. I have read several comments regarding the dynamic iris. Initially reports said that the iris wouldn't work in low lamp mode. Then a few of the reports that it would work in low lamp. Daniel's review sounds like it doesn't work in low lamp. Can anyone provide a definitive answer on the subject? :confused:

reaper, I find it extremely difficult to judge black levels when I am in an unknown environment, as my auto iris (pupils) works very well ;) I am therefor unable to judge background lighting, and thus black level, unless I am at home or can do a side to side comparison. I guess like many I am waiting for that AE700 vs. H51 (and vs. Z3) shootout :)

Originally posted by Mike Versteeg
Since you cannot use the eco mode, is there a way to turn down the light to get good black in a darkened room, ie kill the extra light in some other way?

Not the thread for this discussion as an AVS search would provide threads that deal with this issue, but if there are enough lumens you could utilize a Neutral Density filter or preferably a Colour Correcting filter to reduce black levels.

Again an AVS search will smoke out the details.

ted

If the Dynamic Iris is on, although you can put the bulb in low mode, in reality it does nothing. It still remains in high mode. I am assuming that because there is no visible change when putting the bulb in low mode. Once you turn off the dynamic iris and then tell the bulb to go into low mode do you see any change in the brightness

This projector is virutally noiseless. We had people sitting 1 foot away and could not hear anything

so my question is, once the bulb goes into low mode are you then able to turn on the dynamic iris or does it remain inactive?

I didnt try that but from what the Panny people said, it defeats the purpose. Dynamic IRS was made to be used with high mode.

How would you rate the viewability of that scene overall

The image is still very good in the Star Wars scene. The stuff is there, but I dont think it detracts from the image

Originally posted by Kysersose
Ferret, I don't think that rogo was implying that DLP blacks are the best, just a step above LCD. Don't twist his words. He simply compared the LCD black level to that of DLP, nothing more.
I'm not twisting anyone's words. Thanks for the accusation none the less. :mad:

I've been on AVS to hear the black level being referred to as CRT blacks for a long time. This was knew. I made a note to determine why it is now DLp blacks. I did not know whether this was for one reason or another and posted my curiosity. Rogo is a big boy and can clarify on his own. But accusing me of twisting words is just a low-ball slap in my face. Thank you! My participating in this thread stops here.

I saw the Sony HS51 and thought it look excellant, but remember they only showed HD and I can honestly say that the HD from the Panasonic is very close to the Sony. Lets see what the Sony can do with SD

First post here... I've been lurking for a couple of weeks gathering info, but finally decided to go ahead and get the AE700. Now I just have to decide on the screen!

Thanks Daniel and others for the reviews. It helped me make my choice!

I have more reason than ever to finish up my basement now!

Glenn

Thanks EHUFF and Daniel for the nice reviews.

Mark,

"While I didn't spend a ton of time with the Epson, it was enough to see fairly clearly that it offers traditional "LCD blacks" that are really in the grey family."

OT, but in fairness to the Epson it sounds like the one you saw was not optimally set up. Of the many first hand accounts I've read, most say the blacks are dark gray (one said as good as the In5700), while a few have said they weren't anything special.

"they are using Epson D4 panels and the significantly improved D5 is only a few months off from full production at this point and may already be in the hands of projector manufacturers in prototype quantity or will be so shortly."

When I first read this it sounded like you were saying we'd see D5 pj's soon, but looking closer it's full production by Epson of the panels only, with initial qty's going to pj mfgr's.

My point is I wouldn't expect to see D5 pj's for 6 mos at the soonest.

Originally posted by JPinTO
Daniel--- Regarding the SW Tatooine scene you referred to:

How would you rate the viewability of that scene overall? I find those scenes bring out the absolute worst on my Z2. It's not just the banding, but more the fixed panel noise and screen door that just makes the bright blue sky and white sand a mess to loook at. Every negative LCD attribute becomes apparent.

Personally, I just cringe and wait for the scene to change as quickly as possible.... and wish I had LCOS.

I was at Daniel's last night and I agree with you completely. This is the scene where every negative LCD attribute became apparent. Exactly as you described. However - I immediately went home and played this scene on my AE-500 and it looked fine! No VB or FPN. However - Das Boot didn't show VB on the 700 last night - but does on my 500. Go figure. Anyway - I think I'll hang onto my 500 until the next "big" upgrade (D-5 panel?)

Daniel,

After viewing the 700 many times with different DVD's and HD, how do you think the 700 measures up to the DLP projectors out there such as the Benq 8700+ and the new Sharp 2000 (I realize this model has yet to be out and get a review)? Also with the price point I am seeing out there, is the extra money spent on a Benq 8700+ or Sharp justifiable?

Ferret, rogo never said that the black level was anywhere close to CRT, he simply compared it to that of a DLP, nothing more. You made an accusation based on this statement... Originally posted by rogo
The Panasonic is much closer to a DLP black.

Why the leap to CRT?
As a previous CRT owner myself I understand that DLP absolute black level has quite a ways to go. Rogo was just comparing one digital technology to another. Just show me where he said that the black level of DLP is better than CRT and I'll agree with you.

If you can't find that statement... then you are putting words in his mouth.
Plain and simple.

Daniel and others who have seen the AE700,

I have a 92" 1.0 gain white screen that I am using with my hs20 in a darkly painted 100% light controlled room.. The blacks are definately grey and a bit washed out even in bright scenes. I definately want to continue to use this screen with a new projector. Does the AE700 have good enough blacks to use with a white screen without the greyish wased out hazy black levels? I am considering going with the BenQ 8700+ for it's improved DLP black levels. I see screendoor bigtime on the HS20 from 1.5x screen widths away. This makes me a little leary about the hs51. Unfortunately, I have never seen a DLP in person so I don't know if the rainbows, eye fatigue and dithering would bother me at 1.5x screen widths away. Any opinions?

Thanks,
Tom

Daniel,
Thanks very much for all your information and quick responses!

-Nick

is it just me or does anyone else not like when people refer to black as blacks?

As in changing from an adjective to a noun?

as in black level or "black" being refered to in a plural sense.

Originally posted by rlindo
is it just me or does anyone else not like when people refer to black as blacks?

I'm with you .. why don't we just start refering to the COLOR black on LCD projectors as GREY :D

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I was at Daniel's last night and I agree with you completely. This is the scene where every negative LCD attribute became apparent. Exactly as you described. However - I immediately went home and played this scene on my AE-500 and it looked fine! No VB or FPN. However - Das Boot didn't show VB on the 700 last night - but does on my 500. Go figure. Anyway - I think I'll hang onto my 500 until the next "big" upgrade (D-5 panel?)

So, to your eyes, the AE700 DID show what I described?

Originally posted by Ericbres
I'm with you .. why don't we just start refering to the COLOR black on LCD projectors as GREY :D

And the color black on DLP as "Dark Grey"? White would one call the AE700's black? "Lightish Dark Grey"? :D

Originally posted by JPinTO
And the color black on DLP as "Dark Grey"? White would one call the AE700's black? "Lightish Dark Grey"? :D
Freudian slip? ;)

I was at Daniels's house last night for the demo. Thanks Daniel for your hospitality, and to your family for putting up with all of us.

I agree with everything EHUFF, John Ballantine and Daniel have said. This projector is amazing! They have already covered most of the important issues, so I will just add some "me toos".

VB - I couldn't see any. I've seen it on other projectors, but not on this one. Score: 5 (out of 5)

FPN - This is sometimes confused with VB. The Panasonic had VERY slight FPN, but as Daniel mentioned, not noticeable unless you were REALLY looking for it. Compared favorably to his JVC D-ILA. Score: 4.5

SD - Non-existent. This was probably the most impressive feature for me. I got my nose right up to the screen, and still couldn't see any. But the image still appeared to be very sharp. Not de-focussed looking at all. Again, comparable to Daniel's D-ILA. Score: 6 (out of 5)

Dynamic Iris - This was the least impressive feature. Maybe my hopes were too high, but although there was SOME improvement in black level and shadow detail, it wasn't nearly as dramatic as I'd hoped. It was not obvious at all during normal viewing, (a good thing perhaps), and even when paused at a dark scene, switching DI on and off produced little more than, "Oh yeah, there it is." Score: 2.5

Contrast - Very good. The U-571 scenes were breath-taking. Very 3-D looking, and quite impressive. The Star Wars scenes looked like they couldn't get any better, but when Daniel showed the same scenes on his JVC, there was definitely more depth. Without a side by side comparison, I would be very happy with the Panasonic. Score: 4+

Black Level - Very good, but not as good as I was expecting. Again, maybe my hopes were too high. After reading all this stuff about Dynamic Iris and 2000:1 contrast, I was expecting something like CRT blacks. Well, they're not. But still, pretty good. I think masking would solve the problems here. Score: 4-

Brightness - Looked fine to me. On Daniel's Grayhawk screen, the bright scenes, explosions etc. looked very bright! Score: 5

Color - Excellent! Right out of the box, with all adjustments at zero, I was very impressed! Every scene we watched seemed to be perfect. Score: 5

Sharpness - Looked perfect to me. Even with the 'Smooth Screen' technology, the image appeared to be very sharp. Score: 5

Color Uniformity - Very good. Color scenes looked perfect with no signs of color cast anywhere on the screen. Black and White (Ed Wood) scenes had a very slight color cast, from cool (left) to warm (right), but hardly noticeable. I had to look really hard to see it. Much better than my current LCD*. I don't think it would be a problem for most people. Score: 4

Panel Alignment - This was the one real problem I saw. There was a vertical mis-alignment of at least one of the panels. White text, as in the on-screen menus, had blue borders on the top, and red borders on the bottom, (or maybe the other way around) about one pixel wide in the center of the screen. Didn't really notice it until almost the end of the evening, and only then when 1 foot from the screen, so it isn't a huge problem. My current LCD* projector has nearly perfect alignment in the center, and just the slightest mis-alignment in the top, left corner. I think (hope) this is not a design flaw, but specific to this demo unit. Score: 3

Overall - As you can tell by my scoring, I was very impressed with this projector. Unless there is some DRAMATIC difference in the Sony HS51 when it becomes available for testing, the Panasonic PTAE700 will be my next projector.

*Disclaimer: I have only seen about 10 projectors in my life, all but one of them LCDs, so my basis for comparison is rather limited. Others have seen more, and have much more experience than I. My current projector is a 3 year old Boxlight XP8t (Sanyo PLC-XW20), 1100 lumens, 300:1 CR, lots of FPN and so-so colors, so you really need to take my comments with a grain of salt.

The Group

The Group 2

Sorry to repeat my question, but has anyone in the group at Daniel's last night seen the Infocus Screenplay 5000? I'm just dying to get a comparison to the Panasonic AE700, as those are the 2 projectors I've narrowed down my purchase to.

I just have one question... Black Level - Very good, but not as good as I was expecting. Again, maybe my hopes were too high. After reading all this stuff about Dynamic Iris and 2000:1 contrast, I was expecting something like CRT blacks. Well, they're not. But still, pretty good. I think masking would solve the problems here. Score: 4-

Why were you expecting an LCD PJ with a spec 2000:1 CR to compete with CRT black level?
P.S. Is that one projector that you have seen (outside of all the LCD's) a CRT FP?

Thanks in advance and nice review.

Originally posted by Kysersose
I just have one question...

Why were you expecting an LCD PJ with a spec 2000:1 CR to compete with CRT black level?
P.S. Is that one projector that you have seen (outside of all the LCD's) a CRT FP?

Thanks in advance and nice review.

Thanks.

No, I wasn't reallly expecting CRT black level. Perhaps a poor choice of words. I was just expecting a more dramatic black level than I actually saw.

The one other projector was a DLP. I see rainbows.

Looks like Daniel's got an early-series DILA, which is perfect because so do I :)

So, how did it look overall compared to the DILA? How was the black level and contrast compared to the DILA?

Andy K.

Not to poke at details but how could you compare it to CRT black levels if you haven't seen a FP CRT? Or maybe were you comparing it to CRT RPTV...

Is that it?

Sorry for the questions... I just want to clear this up.

P.S. How did it compare to "DLP black levels", and what DLP PJ was it that you saw?

Thanks again!

I'm with you .. why don't we just start refering to the COLOR black on LCD projectors as GREY

BASH ALERT! :D

Daniel and other HT Forum members who reviewed the AE700--thanks! I can't believe how many decent reviews we already have on this projector. This group just gets better and better!

Dan

Never seen the Infocus LCD so I cant give you a comparison.

People like to ask, BenQ 8700 vs Pansonic. Its not a fair comparison. One sells for 2K and the other is 4K. Aside from things like lens shift and other bells and whistles, a 4000 dollar projector should be better than a 2000 projector. I am not saying its twice as good, but it should be better. If not, everyone would be buying the 2K LCD and eventually either the 4K projector will go away or have to drop its price

For 2K, this projector is a winner. Do these types of projectors have VB and FNB, sure but at least for me it was completely unnoticable unless you are looking for it. At this price range there isnt perfection and if it was no one would buy the Sharp 12K. Having said that, with HD, this projector rivals many other high end projectors. Mouling Rouge and U-571 was breathtaking and everyone in the room said so

Sure DLP will have better blacks, but LCD doesnt have rainbows or gives you headaches.

I would recommend this projector to everyone, but realize that like every other projector, its not perfect and it never will be and if you want to get closer to perfection, then be prepared to spend another $6000

Originally posted by Kysersose
Not to poke at details but how could you compare it to CRT black levels if you haven't seen a FP CRT? Or maybe were you comparing it to CRT RPTV...

Is that it?

Sorry for the questions... I just want to clear this up.

P.S. How did it compare to "DLP black levels", and what DLP PJ was it that you saw?

Thanks again!

Again, a poor choice of words on my part. Didn't really mean to 'compare' to CRT black levels. I was just expecting a more dramatic lowering of black levels in dark scenes from the Dynamic Iris after all the talk about it.

I have not seen a CRT FP.

I have actually seen 2 DLPs. One was an old NEC LT150 (doesn't really count), and the other was a higher end Yamaha, but I can't remember the Model. The AE700 compared favorbly with the Yamaha. I have not seen any of the newer DLPs, so my comparison may not be valid.

I did find the black levels to be more than 'satisfying'. They did not look hazy or washed out like my current projector. The only place the black levels didn't look relly black was in the black borders outside the picture area. As I said before, I think masking would take care of this.

Yes, I was thinking of those 'black hole' looking black levels you see on CRT RPTVs.

fwf, thanks again for the explanation!
That clears things up nicely.

Has anyone compared the AE700 to the Infocus 4805? They are in similar price ranges. Are the blacks of the AE700 as good as those produced on the 4805?

looks like I'll be hanging on to my 8700+ for another year. :-)

Smart move joe. Wait for the D5 panel.

What advice would you guys, who have used projectors for a while now and have lots more experience at all of this, give to someone who is going to buy one for the first time?

I have a preorder on the 700U. It's about what I want to spend. I can't go larger than a 92" 16:9 diagonal screen in the room dedicated for viewing. Room is 14 x 15. I'm hearing guys who were wanting this thing to be their next projector backing off a bit now. But wondering if it might be a good first projector for someone like me.

Ya gotta start somewhere right.

I saw the VB shots too and would be bothered by them. We've been watching a tube Panny 34" HD for the past 4 years and love HDTV, DVDs. Looking forward to a large screen experience.

Any suggestions?

Bob

I'm a little confused now. I have read several comments regarding the dynamic iris. Initially reports said that the iris wouldn't work in low lamp mode. Then a few of the reports that it would work in low lamp. Daniel's review sounds like it doesn't work in low lamp. Can anyone provide a definitive answer on the subject?

I would guess it would not make a difference. The idea behind the concept is that in darker scenes the projector removes some of the light making it darker and in brighter scenes uses the full potential of light and makes it brighter. I would guess that there is no way of going into low lamp with the dynamic iris because that is where the dynamic comes into play, i.e. uses low lamp in dark scenes and high lamp mode in bright scenes.

Wanted to say thanks to all the guys that took the time to give their reviews

It will be nice to get things confirmed by numbers. I like user comments better but for lumens, cr and black level I would rather have the numbers since these qualities are difficult to describe. I mean to many things can influence your impression.

I would like to ask you people who have seen this projector. What kind of brightness are we talking about here if we compare with other projectors. I am after the fact that if ae700 was brighter with the same cr it would project with a higher black level.

Maybe I missed this, but did you play with the lens shift to look for any negative side effects at the extremes or otherwise.

BobP you have a PM from me.

Bob, in that room size you should also consider the Sony HS51. I'd wait at least long enough for more information to come out about that one, and also for a few of these Pannys to get in some customer hands and see if there are problems.

Both projectors represent a radical shift in the field, both in terms of price/performance and also being the first to apply the variable iris, a new technology at least in this application.

Having said that, at the speed at which the 700 is showing up in the hands of people who know how to review them, you're not talking about a long wait, maybe a month or two. Just let it "age" long enough to make sure the projector lives up to it's initial billing.

I'm looking to upgrade and right now this 700 is looking mighty good. I have the luxury of waiting for the D5 panels, that is going to be probably mid-year 2005 before they get in projectors in quantity and enough of those projectors get out in the field and we find out how good they are. So I'll hold out a bit longer.

As you've probably figured, I'm not the early adopter type, though I was one of the first Panamorph owners. On the other hand, the price is right and we are already seeing enough reports here that the projector does very well indeed, unprecedented performance in this price range.

So you probably will do OK to go ahead with your order, particularly since you REALLY want to watch the playoffs and Superbowl on the Big Screen. Trust me, it is absolutely fantastic. Like being at the game but a whole lot easier to go to the bathroom! :)

As for the VB, the reports all say it is negligible on this projector and, if I counted right, we have three different 700s reviewed here. That's pretty encouraging in that department.

Keep your ear to the ground around here. This crowd really knows how to spot a winner and pan a loser. I bought sight-unseen for over $5,000 2.5 years ago based on the in-depth reviews here. I have NEVER been disappointed--the projector was exactly the way these guys described it.

Dan

I am having a great time reading the reviews here NOW. But i want to know two things.

-Is there still a flicker tweak in the service menu?
-Can you hear difference in noise compared to AE500?

I really love this forum!

did anyone who has ae700 try key [menu] --> highlight [options] --> and hold [enter] key for 5 seconds?

I just read over on AVforum that a flicker tweak was successful in reducing VB! This makes me happy. I am biting the bullet and ordering on monday. Now if I can just pull the splinters out of my arse! Damn fence.....:)

Daniel-
You answered all my questions in your other thread except one:

When you are feeding it an HD signal (720p or 1080i) can you adjust the aspect ratio via the remote? You should be able to try this with any HD signal (upconverted DVD, DVHS, or HDTV)...

You cannot on the L300u or the AE500 and it's a pain. Thanks.
-Matt

I haven't read many people commenting on the AE700's long throw capability, this is a feature that I find very attractive.

What I want to do is put the pj in the back of my room, on the rear wall, rather than ceiling mount, and project to an 8ft wide screen 19ft away. Additionally, I want to put my 3 front speakers-KEF Q1's-behind the screen, so I want to try to use Dazian Coated Celtic for the screen material.

What I am not sure of is will the AE700 be bright enough when combined with long throw, big screen and a screen material that loses some light.

Originally posted by Jcam9
I just read over on AVforum that a flicker tweak was successful in reducing VB! This makes me happy. I am biting the bullet and ordering on monday. Now if I can just pull the splinters out of my arse! Damn fence.....:)

madpoet -

Could you merge this thread with the one(s) over on AV Forums? They're quoting us, and we're quoting them, and it's a pain to keep swithching back and forth! :D :D

Originally posted by JPinTO
So, to your eyes, the AE700 DID show what I described? ie:Originally posted by JPinTO

Daniel--- Regarding the SW Tatooine scene you referred to:
How would you rate the viewability of that scene overall? I find those scenes bring out the absolute worst on my Z2. It's not just the banding, but more the fixed panel noise and screen door that just makes the bright blue sky and white sand a mess to loook at. Every negative LCD attribute becomes apparent.

Personally, I just cringe and wait for the scene to change as quickly as possible.... and wish I had LCOS.

YES - I could clearly see the FPN and VB on the 700 in that one specific Star Wars (Tatoonie) scene exactly as you described. No doubt about it. When I got home and cued up that same scene on my 500 it looked fine. Hence I've canceled my pre-order for the 700. I seemed to be the only one who was really bothered by it.

However - the 700 looked spectacular in every other way - and if I didn't already own the 500 - I would definitly be buying one. I just don't think it's worth it to me to upgrade from the 500 to the 700 at this time.

Lastly, the 700 picture quality with DVHS was Stunning. The 700 had no dead pixels - and I thought the black level looked fine, although not much better than my 500. At least to my eyes. The fan was extremely quiet even with the unit sitting right in front of us. I didn't hear any cycling of the fan either.

Hopefully the new D-5 panel will cure FPN and VB once and for all. That's when I'll up-grade.

We had the projector at 2x and the lens shift was at maximum upward and there were no problems with it

When you are feeding it an HD signal (720p or 1080i) can you adjust the aspect ratio via the remote? You should be able to try this with any HD signal (upconverted DVD, DVHS, or HDTV)...

I dont know, but when I tried using the aspect button when the dvd player was connected using dvi and sending out at 720p, I couldnt change it either

Ferret:
"DLP blacks? Is this a means to describe black as a conclusion that one can never reach CRT blacks in the digital realm, or that too few people in the digital forums have ever seen a CRT projector to be able to comprehend what black can truly be? I almost spit-up my coffee this morning."

I really don't even get this.

Not only have I seen CRT projectors -- which get only as black as the screen the last time I checked -- but I have seen about a million CRT televisions, thanks.

----------------

Reaper, et al.:
The Sony's iris appears not to work miracles either. And it's slow. As a result, it doesn't always move. I'm not yet persuaded it's going to be dramatically better than the Panasonic when watching actual video -- not test patterns, video.

And for a lot of people, the differnce in SDE as well as cash will make the Panasonic the "superior" video choice, not even allowing for placement advantages.

But I'm still intrigued by the Sony.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
YES - I could clearly see the FPN and VB on the 700 in that one specific Star Wars (Tatoonie) scene exactly as you described. No doubt about it. When I got home and cued up that same scene on my 500 it looked fine. Hence I've canceled my pre-order for the 700. I seemed to be the only one who was really bothered by it.

However - the 700 looked spectacular in every other way - and if I didn't already own the 500 - I would definitly be buying one. I just don't think it's worth it to me to upgrade from the 500 to the 700 at this time.

Lastly, the 700 picture quality with DVHS was Stunning. The 700 was also "pixel perfect" - and I thought the black level looked fine, although not much better than my 500. At least to my eyes. The fan was extremely quiet even with the unit sitting right in front of us. I didn't hear any cycling of the fan either.

Hopefully the new D-5 panel will cure FPN and VB once and for all. That's when I'll up-grade.

Nice reading!
How do you compare AE500 fan noise to the AE700? Would be very interesting to know. Big, little or no difference? And it looks like the black level isnt that much better with the dynamic iris.

Originally posted by BobP
What advice would you guys, who have used projectors for a while now and have lots more experience at all of this, give to someone who is going to buy one for the first time?

I have a preorder on the 700U. It's about what I want to spend. I can't go larger than a 92" 16:9 diagonal screen in the room dedicated for viewing. Room is 14 x 15. I'm hearing guys who were wanting this thing to be their next projector backing off a bit now. But wondering if it might be a good first projector for someone like me.

Ya gotta start somewhere right.

I saw the VB shots too and would be bothered by them. We've been watching a tube Panny 34" HD for the past 4 years and love HDTV, DVDs. Looking forward to a large screen experience.

Any suggestions?

Bob

Don't even consider canceling your preorder!!! ;)

There are guys who spent $10K just a few years ago that didn't get this level of PQ.

You cannot go wrong!!!!

Originally posted by exsodius
Nice reading!
How do you compare AE500 fan noise to the AE700? Would be very interesting to know. Big, little or no difference? And it looks like the black level isnt that much better with the dynamic iris.

The black level wasn't that much better with the dynamic iris - but I prefered the "look" of the picture with it it on. So I would leave it on.

RE: Fan noise. We were running the 700 on "High-lamp/High-fan" w/ the Dynamic Iris/A.I." on. The fan was extremely quiet. I can never run my 500 on high-fan because you can clearly hear it during the quiet parts of a movie. Does this mean the 700's fan on high is as quiet as the 500's on low??? I don't know. Maybe.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
The black level wasn't that much better with the dynamic iris - but I prefered the "look" of the picture with it it on. So I would leave it on.
John,
Care to comment on whether this might be because of the Dynamic gamma? Also did the gamma tracking look correct to your eyes?

ted

Thanks for the clarification, John.

That's unfortunate that the VB/FPN mess isn't improved.... although it sounds like you have a very clean AE500. Count yourself fortunate on that count.

Originally posted by tvted
John,
Care to comment on whether this might be because of the Dynamic gamma? Also did the gamma tracking look correct to your eyes?

ted

The gamma tracking looked very good to my eyes. Gamma seemed to be slightly improved with the Dynamic Iris on. This was especially noticable while viewing scenes inside the submarine on U-571 on DVHS. The image had incredible depth/shadow detail and resolution. I had a lot of trouble sleeping last night with those images in my head.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
The gamma tracking looked very good to my eyes. Gamma seemed to be slightly improved with the Dynamic Iris on. This was especially noticable while viewing scenes inside the submarine on U-571 on DVHS. The image had incredible depth/shadow detail and resolution. I had a lot of trouble sleeping last night with those images in my head.

I suspect that the quality of the dynamic gamma coupled to the dynamic iris is really the key to this technology and the resulting PQ. It will be interesting to see how the HS 51 performs in this respect.

Sorry about your sleep.
Some are called to make these sacrifices to enhance the lives of future generations of our species (AVman).;)

speaking for me I honor your willingness to duty.
ted

Understand it is probably buried somewhere in these "excited" pages, but is this 700 available in Australia as yet, and Retail Price?
Sorry, I'm o/s at present!

POST DELETED

Please read the forum posting guidelines.
Kyser

Originally posted by nrsimao
Hey Fishhooks,

the Panasonic will be available in Australia on the 11th of October according to this website:

LOTS O" STUFF ABOUT WHERE TO BUY WITH AUSTRALIAN BUCKS :(

Im from Sydney and looking at buying the 700 in November for XBOX games and DVDs, Iv read the reviews and I can wait to get my hands on one.
Uh oh, poet or the man with the gun gonna get you.

I suggest you read the Forum Rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263776) and do the right thing.

ted

NOTE TO REVIEWERS:

The only bad thing about using the Tatooine desert shot from Star Wars ANH to look for VB on an LCD projector is that the shot already has bad vertical banding inherent with the film negative. It has to do with heat damage done to the negative during shooting in Tunisia that has never been fixed on any restoration of this film. The same banding pops up in Lawrence of Arabia's desert shots as its negatives were also blistered during the extremely hot, dry conditions. This could exacerbate and/or possibly trick you into thinking it's VB from the projector, when it could just be the source material.

I'd still like to see a head 2 head comparison of this projector and the Infocus 4805. Even though the 4805 is 854x480p instead of 1280x720p I'd like to see if the benefits of a dark chip DLP and a somewhat brighter/punchier picture out-weigh the resolution difference side by side when viewed at 1.5x to 2x the screen width given the problems inherent with LCD, and the slight price difference.

The resolution numbers game can fool people into automatically thinking the HD LCD will out match the non HD DLP. Is the difference smaller than we think? Proof is in the watching.

Have at it boys!

Dan

When is the D5 coming out and in what units?

Much higher prices?

i'm pretty sure the D5 won't be available in quantity until late next spring or early summer.

as far as pricing is concerned have no inside info...but i would be surprised if the D5 models were sold at much of a (if any) premium. maybe the MSRP will increase a couple hundred dollars over the previous generation but i doubt the street prices will be any higher. the price point on these models stays about the same for each successive model...haven't the panny 300, 500, and 700 all sold for nearly the same? i don't see why the 900 (or whatever the next model is) will be any different.

I've been lurking for a while, thanks for all the reviews and info.
One question in the back of my mind before I take the plunge on the AE700....
Does anyone have any insight into the mechanical reliability of the Dynamic Iris technology? I'm not familiar with the construction of the iris, but I'm assuming it's similar to a multiple leaf spiral camera iris?
If this thing is motor driven and is frequently or constantly adjusting the mechanism, is anyone concerned about it's longevity? Is it designed with enough safety margin that it lasts indefinitely or do you expect it to have a finite life? Or is the technology already used in some other device where the bugs have already been worked out?

Thanks

Here is a link to calculate throw distance. Quite a range for most.

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/projector/calc/html/aspct169/ae700.html

Also a link to extended warranty coverage at low cost. They claim in home service, 24hr call center and the plan is transferrable if you sell the projector. Looks like only $156 for 2 extra years parts and labor included. Anyone delt with Repairmaster before?

http://www.tvauthority.com/Plasma_TV_LCD_TVs_HDTV/prodlist.asp?dept=17&cat=303

the animations of the iris shown at CEDIA made it look more like 2 doors opening and closing than a circle that could open and close like the HS51 has. But, that animation may have just been inteded to get the idea across.

reaper

Hi all,
So here's some pics I've taken after applying the 'flicker tweak'. I have to say VB is practically non existent now, you really do have to be looking for it to see it. Hope the pics do it justice! By the way, the purple/green pixels are on my camera!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0834.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0833.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0827.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0825.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0814.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0813.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0812.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0811.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0803.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0801.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0799.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0798.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0797.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0790.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0787.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0786.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0785.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0784.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0783.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0780.jpg

Cheers,
Andy

Have to say, the pics look softer once I've transferred them to photobucket, think they get compressed some more when I do that. Hopefully gives you all an idea anyway

Cheers,
Andy.

zAndy12,
Are the stuck pixels due to your camera or the projector?

How did you apply the flickter tweak. I have tried to search this thread
and I missed finding and answer.

Thanks.

Originally posted by madpoet
Edward... there's no way on god's green earth this thing will have a legitimate 2000:1 CR you know ;). Look at the Panny 500's published vs real world specs. If this thing manages to top 1000cr without cheating I'll be happy, but surprised.

Yes, it will hit 2000:1 because of iris. The Sony does 6000:1 and THAT is an LCD, so why wouldn't this one do 2000:1?

The stuck pixels are on my camera

Cheers,
Andy.

Originally posted by cabreau
Yes, it will hit 2000:1 because of iris. The Sony does 6000:1 and THAT is an LCD, so why wouldn't this one do 2000:1? Real world specs and published specs are two different things entirely.

zAndy12,
What are ur system? DVD or HTPC?
What are ur screen? DIY, canada, silverstar..etc?

THX

Flicker Tweak from an AVforum member,

"you go into options and hold enter on osd for 5 seconds and then it puts you into the service menu, from there go into flicker, this screen shows red,blue,green they were all flickering like mad, then I adjusted them by press left or right till the flicker was reduced to no flickering, works wonders. I can not express how pleased I am with this projector now. go buy it. with my ae300 there was something missing in the picture it just didnt look like my crt 32. Now the ae700 isnt far off it."

Just helping to update info from the other forums for those who don't like to do the digging :)

Originally posted by Jcam9
Flicker Tweak from an AVforum member,

"you go into options and hold enter on osd for 5 seconds and then it puts you into the service menu, from there go into flicker, this screen shows red,blue,green they were all flickering like mad, then I adjusted them by press left or right till the flicker was reduced to no flickering, works wonders. I can not express how pleased I am with this projector now. go buy it. with my ae300 there was something missing in the picture it just didnt look like my crt 32. Now the ae700 isnt far off it."

Just helping to update info from the other forums for those who don't like to do the digging :)


FANTASTIC. I wonder what that adjustment is actually doing though, and if there are any side-effects? I can't wait to hear (or see hopefully soon!) what else is in the service menu. I am so excited as this is my first projector (well actually I had an X1 for about a week, which I hated because of rainbows & headaches, and I also breifly had an older LCD projector which had pretty bad picture quality although both made my Mits55801 rear projection look like a joke, oh the thrill of HD in '99 :) Boy did I spend a lot of time in service menus tweaking that puppy out!).

This might be a silly question -- but first -- is it recommended that we do the avia/video essentials tuning, and if so, should we turn OFF dynamic iris at that time? Also -- what is the best way to test for stuck pixels? Just project a solid color and walk up as close as possible looking for any wrong colors?

Finally, one of the reviewers mentioned slight (one pixel) misalignment of the panels - is this something you guys would send the projector in for service on? Would they service it free for you on an issue like that? Or would most of you just live with it (reviewer said it wasn't a big deal).

-Gordo

Thanks for providing the information on the flicker tweak. If VB can be
removed this seems like one great projector.

From another forum:

"Babelfish is entirely understandable but it does sometimes take a second look.
I love the dB rating for projectors!!! For the AE700 i think it said 'It has 26 railways so is quiet but in low mode it is only 23 railways"
CLASSIC!"

Is this really so? Before panasonics DB specs where from low lamp mode. If this is true, AE700 will be as quiet as sanyo z2.

Comments?

tradergordo and others new to the Panny projectors, VB tends to change as the pj warms up. When I had my 300, VB wasn't so much the problem as the peakaboo scanline artifact, now with the 500 it's the VB. But both the peakaboo and the VB can be improved significantly with the flicker tweak. The key is to wait until the pj is warm (at least 30 mins) before doing the flicker tweak. If you do it immediately after turning it on, you won't have any VB for the first 30 minutes or so, but then the panels will warm up and it will change. So I just get in the habit of letting my pj warm up before I watch anything. The VB is worse during that time.

If you want to see what I'm talking about, do the flicker tweak immediately after turning the pj on. Then do it again after it has warmed up. You'll notice that the values that produce the least flicker have changed. Make sense?

You know what I wonder is why they can't do this simple tweak at the factory beforehand. It would save a lot of people from having to figure out this problem on their own. Luckily we have AVSforum and others to help us out :)

And oh, just to be mean, I'll tell you how to make sure that you know what VB is. Do the flicker tweak and turn the green panels up or down so that they flicker wildly. Then go back and look at an image. It looks like jail bars. It's really odd. It's hyper VB. But if you do it with the red or blue, you just get a very red tinted or blue tinted picture. Seems like the green panel is what's driving the VB to me.

WARNING-Don't do this if you've never seen VB! You'll start looking for it! So just don't go there if you're blissfully ignorant. If you don't know what it is, don't ever look for it.

zAndy12 - what is your setup? (DVD player, projector (ae700?), scaler?, and screen)

interesting comparison between zAndy12 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0787.jpg & the similar screen captures by crumpet http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453096&pagenumber=2 (the computer crt screen capture & ht1000 comparison).

If zAndy12 is using the ae700 then the smoothscreen technology really does make the picture soft...

Ok, dvd player is an SDI modded Panasonic RP82. Scaler is Crystalio VPS-2300. Screen is a Grandview electric 72" diagonal. And of course it's the AE700 projector (this is the AE700 thread after all).

Cheers,
Andy.

Hi and thx for the reviews.

Can you confirm you get 1:1 pixel matching through HDMI?

Thx again.

I'm waiting this projector will be sold in Spain to ask for it.
I feel like having it!!

Thanks for your review and answer zAndy12


Regards

Originally posted by anon-e-mouse
zAndy12 - what is your setup? (DVD player, projector (ae700?), scaler?, and screen)

interesting comparison between zAndy12 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/zAndy1/DSCN0787.jpg & the similar screen captures by crumpet http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453096&pagenumber=2 (the computer crt screen capture & ht1000 comparison).

If zAndy12 is using the ae700 then the smoothscreen technology really does make the picture soft...

Pictures of screen captures can NOT be used to judge picture quality. His camera, picture taking skills, and compression make it impossible. Smoothscreen does not make the picture soft.

jacksonian - yes you are right. picture taking skills & camera quality can play a part in making his screen capture soft. I'm glad to hear that you think the smoothscreen technology doesn't soften the on-screen image!

cheers

Indeed the "Smoothscreen causes softness" talk really should die.

LCD is a FIXED PIXEL technology. This means that as long as every pixel is visible you CAN NOT lose Picture Detail! Each pixel contains one element of the picture and as long as those elements aren't bad (stuck, off, etc) you are getting all the picture detail. This is in contrast to film where picture detail is everywhere and nowhere, and any change of focus for smoothness has to be balanced against a loss of some detail.

That's not the only issue for PQ, to be sure, but it is CERTAINLY the only issue for 'softness'. Any softness is perceived, the 'crisper' image on other LCDs is an illusion created by seeing the hard, straight lines of the grid.

The ONLY way for Smoothscreen (or defocusing for that matter) to negatively affect PQ is if its done to SUCH an extreme extent that pixels are bleeding into each other and eliminating the distinct elements, and NO ONE WHO HAS SEEN it (including those who perceive 'softness') has suggested that that is the case.

I've said it before and I will again, its the same issue as people who have the sharpness on their Tube TVs turned up way too high. And if you don't know, you probably do (Avia or DVE is the best way to know). When you initially turn down the sharpness to a correct level there is a perceived softness, this too is an optical illusion as over time you realize there are MORE fine details that were being lost in bleeding colors and and harder edges.

rant complete.

I'm wiring video/audio/computer, for my ordered HS51 and confused why SONY would eliminate DVI from the newer HS51 when the HS20 had DVI and HDMI? I'm trying to figure out what cable to get for the computer hookup. Is it possible they will include DVI for US distribution? It's not on their spec sheets.

Anyone have an answer?

Thanks!!

DVI to HDMI cable. Google 'DVI HDMI' and you'll find plenty of hits

Has anyone compared the AE700 with the Hitachi PJ TX100 and/or Infocus SP 5000 and Epson 500? I think this comparison is highly necessary right now.

Does anyone know of a western Canadian dealer ? Think I'm ready to retire the AE-100 !

Thanks

Good news, just got off the phone with ProjectorPeople and they said they should be getting the first shipment in this week sometime. Of course, all those are already sold to the pre-orders they have (that's me :-) )

Can't wait to get this beast!

hehe, I'm number 6 on ProjectorPeople's list :D

edit: spelling

Does anyone have a price quote on the new 700.

that information is not to be posted here, mdbcpa. AVSForum is kindly sponsored by a store and they don't appreciate advertisements for their competitors.



reaper

SORRY I'M NEW TO THIS BOARD......

I'll make it easy on you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263776

Hello and thanks to everyone for the excellent information on projectors!

I am new to projectors, but I have been looking at the ae700 and I have a few questions about how it compares to the ae500.

First, how much of a difference is there in the picture? Is the contrast and brightness enough to make it worth the price difference? (currently looks like there is a big price difference) I know the lense shift and zoom features would be nice, but they are not necessary in my setup. My primary concern is how the picture quality compares in the two. Also, is it true that neither are going to allow for any light in the room?

Also, I have heard that the ae700 is a replacement for the ae500... will the price soon come to reflect this? (I.e. will the ae700 come down significantly once seller have them in stock?)

Thanks for all your help!
- Sam

sampj:
If your out for your first PJ then you want the most current technology. Go with the 700u it is a better PJ. Digital projection is on par with computer technology. One year can make a huge difference. Don't buy old technology. I had the 500u and it was so so. The lens shift on the 700u would make it worth it alone. Every aspect of the 700u is better except for the fact they use the same panels.

I'm however going to wait for the new D5 panels to come out.

sampj,

Here's an entire thread related to that question:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=449067

reaper

Simple question??? Infocus 4805 or Panny 700?

Hello Everyone,

I have pre-ordered the 700 after spending a fair bit if time on this forum, projectorcentral.com and viewing projectors in my area (Toronto). It will be my first projector and I can't wait.

Speaking of the above mentioned site.....Has anyone tried getting on it lately? A message comes up that it has been upgraded or something, but it fails to link up to the new version.

Thanks,

Gabe

Originally posted by thegamer36
Simple question???

No.

It is definetly not a simple question???

Naaah... sorry to give such an answer, but it comes down to a lot of personal preference. Do you want/need higher resolution? Do you want DLP technology or LCD technology? Do you want lens shift? Etc etc. To me, the answer is simple: AE700. But that's because I know the answer to all the questions beneath your question. If I were to recommend something to a friend who didn't want to do any research, I'd also say AE700. But the fact that you're here seems to indicate that you want to do some research. So, I think the answer is not simple.

reaper

Is there yet any place to purchase one of these units or is everyone having to preorder and wait a few weeks?

Thanks!

I'm pretty sure everyone in the US is pre-ordering. Reports from Europe are that units have trickled in...

Paul

Two major retailers taking preorders for the AE700U have told me that they will be the FIRST retailer to receive shipment. Too funny! I guess they will say anything to get you to preorder with them.

The local company I pre-ordered through explained to me that all authorized Panny dealers will be receiving the units at the same time. I'll take that with a bit of salt, as I'm sure shipping will influence arrivals by a day or two across the country.
My screen arrived at home today! I'm a partially happy camper now ;)

Why does everyone rush to be one of the first people to get a projector? Wouldn't you be better served by sitting back for a few weeks and waiting to see if some other sucker unearths some heinous design flaw? Just a thought. I know it's fun to get some new tech and show it off. :)

reaper

Has anyone picked up an HDMI cable yet for this puppy? I checked Ramelectronics and they seem pretty fair on pricing.

Reaper: I'm sure AVS forum has an unusually high percentage of earlier adopters in its ranks. I can't tell you how many times I've read the "I've placed my order and I cant wait for it to be delivered" line We simply can't wait, its a sickness ya know!

I'm one of those who is on the pre-order list (what is "pre"-ordering anyway? I thought I just "ordered" it :D ) and you're probably right that there's no real advantage to buying early on a new model. Actually, it's the first time I've done such a thing with an electronic toy.

But this is my first FP and I've been wanting one and shopping for one for years. Until very recently, there have been home theater deal-killers a'plenty; initial costs, PQ, lamp life, ongoing maintenance/calibration issues, room placement, operating noise, to name a few. But that has all changed in just the last few years.

Since that change, I still set some standards that had to be met before I jumped in and it just seems that this projector meets practically all of them on paper and in the preliminary reviews I've read here, including horizontal lens shift, PQ, low fan noise, lamp life, lumens, CR, HDMI, etc. and it falls within the price range I can see myself spending for a toy like this.

Honestly, if the IF4805 had horizontal lens shift and a much quieter fan level, I probably would have bought that one weeks ago, because I've seen it in action and I could see myself being happy with that as the center of my home theater, too.

But Panasonic got there first with all the rest of it. And I understand that the LCD vs. DLP issue has been blurred with this model as well. In fact, the more I read about it, the better this model sounds to me.

I realize that I may be the canary in the mine shaft on this one model, but I'm prepared to deal with those problems if they arise. Besides, if I continue to wait and put it off much longer, I'll be too old to be able to see and hear any home theater by the time I get one!
;)

Most of hitchfan's comments would apply to me too. First projector. In fact, it's the first time I've spent more than $350 on any A/V equipment. I'm sure a few jaws just dropped there, but actually, I haven't been that bad off. A lot of my good friends share their house and home theater whenever an important game is on.

So, now, I've got my heart set on this projector, and can't stop reading about it. I've saved all the money needed to buy it, would have sprung for the SP5000 when it came out, if I hadn't been reading about the 700 already. I'm going from a 29" TV to a 98" projector, and I just can't get my PJ any too soon.

If I was upgrading from a similair projector, there's no question I'd wait for more reviews. But, I trust the opinions of members on this board enough that I decided it was the projector for me as soon as the first personal reviews started trickling through.

confirmed advantages over the Z2:
Lense shift
dynamic iris
smoothscreen
color tuning
flicker control (affects VB)
long lamp life
2x zoom

If the 700 is unavailable, I would be buying a Sanyo Z2. If this projector has just 4 of the 7 features listed above, it would be worth the extra cost over the Z2. So, I cannot forsee any situation where I might change my mind, based on the official reviews. So, I have no reason to wait for the reviews!

Does that answer your question reaper? ;)

Originally posted by Jcam9
Has anyone picked up an HDMI cable yet for this puppy? I checked Ramelectronics and they seem pretty fair on pricing.

Nope, haven't picked one up yet, but I was on that site today too looking, and they do seem very fair in pricing.

So I'm watching and I'm waiting and I"m hoping for the best, even think I'll go to praying..... No, this is not a Frank Zappa tune. I've been watching this thread and thinking I was ready to pull the trigger, but I just don't know yet. I really do like the look of some DLP projectors i have seen in action. They were Sharp projectors so I am not sure about Infocus. Based on some comments in this thread maybe I should wait till the D5 LCD panels are used or go with a cheap DLP like the Infocus X1 that almost everyone raves about. I was not bothered by rainbows when viewing the Sharp displays, but I am not sure that would be the case with the X1. I would defintely prefer the 16X9 native display and the higher resoulution that LCD projetors offer for less $ than similar DLP's. Guess I'll wait and see some more reviews on the 700. Besides, everytime I buy anything tech related recently it's 25% to 50% less within a few weeks.

FYI, just got an email back from Visual Apex. They are very nice people but I guess they no longer are checking for dead pixels? Just something you may want to know beforehand. Please don't think I am bashing them, they are prompt and polite. I just know some people don't like to take a chance and want peace of mind when it comes to the pixel issue.

"Based on the stellar track record we had with almost no pixel issues with the PTL-500U, we are no longer see a need to check for dead pixels."

This is a good sign for Panasonic's quality control. I am just one of those that like the peace of mind.

I am not sure if Projector People check or not. I went with the other advertiser on the banner at the top, they will check and are cheaper too. I am not sure if they sponsor AVSforum or are just buying advertisment space so I won't mention the name.

FYI

According to the website and my sales rep: ProjectorPeople do not check dead pixels but they do have a no hassle 7 day / 4 lamp hour satisfaction policy. of course if something was wrong with your unit (something not covered by warranty like a single dead pixel) and you returned for a replacement I would GUESS that you would go to the bottom of the waiting list and then lord knows when you'll receive the new one.

That was the single determining factor in my selecting that retailer

-Jason

reaper,

There is an important factor in regards to this projector and why I am don't think waiting is appropriate for me; this is not first generation technology. If this were first gen LCD projector technology that would be one thing, but that simply is not the case. All accounts it is an improvement.

If the thing sucks, I will send it back and move on. I really don't think that will happen. I am not a audiophile or a videophile, just a run of the mill consumer, so don't intend to nit pick to death a sub-$3000 projector.

Additionally, I am ready to purchase and this projector fits the bill. Admittedly, I am a little casual about this purchase, but I consider this projector to be comparatively inexpensive and an excellent value.

Hopefully, we'll soon know if I am wrong :)

Well, AugDog clearly has more money than me, but otherwise I agree completely :D

I don't consider it inexpensive, but I do love the value. And the not being first generation is VITAL to me as well. If this was the first D5 panel or other significant new change, I'd be more cautious.

Additionally, I haven't been waiting 6 months to find this purchase, waiting for the next big thing. I started looking about 6 weeks ago. I almost got a z2, then heard the tx100 was getting good reviews. Finally, I heard the 700 announced and it sounded great. My point is just that I don't have time in my life to keep waiting until everything is perfect. RIGHT NOW is my time to buy a projector, so either I take a calculated risk on this item or I go back to the proven but less exciting z2 or tx100.

So that's my 'why'

Originally posted by jasallen
Well, AugDog clearly has more money than me, but otherwise I agree completely :D

I did say comparatively inexpensive. :) $2-$3K is not chump change and I am not into wasting my money. I still think this is low risk purchase and can honestly say I have not second guessed my pre-order one time. Definitely not agonizing over this decision like I was when considering a higher-end HD2+ unit. Not to get too heavy in a forum concerning a very fun hobby, but I was having a ethical dilemma with a purchase of such magnitude. Just seemed indulgent when there are so many people and organizations that need assistance. This compromise lets me meet both of my objectives; home theater and a little philanthropy. I highly recommend it.

Also, I think I have proper expectation and perspective as well. Not expecting this to be a qualia or sharp 12K, but a very nice LCD which reasonably meets it specs. So unless there is a major issue, I'm going to set this thing up and enjoy it until I am ready to upgrade. Now picking the screen, that is another story. Pretty perplexed on this issue.

Any AE700 vs. Infocus 4805 matchups yet?

Dan

I'd like to hear comparisons between the Yamaha 510 and the Panasonic AE700 since people recently refered to the Yamaha as one of the best LCD projectors.

SEE my link RE HDMI cables -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453378

ANy opinions, as iuts for the panasonic 700 when u get it next week :)

After waiting so long for a FP like the AE700 to come along, I think I'm going for the whole pie and getting a 112" diagonal 2.35 to 1 screen.

I suspect it's easier to mask on the sides for smaller formats than to mask on the top and bottom for larger ones and I just like the look of a 2.35 to 1 screen in a home theater set up. Maybe a Carada, but I may make do with a cheapie DIY until the Sony Black Screen material hits the market.

Seating will be about 11 feet from the screen but if the "no SDE" claim holds relatively true for the AE700, that distance shouldn't be a problem and BIG is what it's all about, isn't it?

I don't know. I guess I should play with the image size on a bare wall for a while to test the various sizes and aspect ratios.

Any shared thoughts out there on matching a 112" 2.35 to 1 screen with the AE700 are much appreciated.

Moderate ambient light until after dark may be a factor.

hitchfan, I don't think you should have any problems with that screen size and seating distance. I have an AE300 and shoot onto a High Power 116" wide. I sit 14 feet from the screen and I am never bothered by 'screendoor'....That's because there is none, smoothscreen works miracles. And you are right..."Bigger is Better' this is home theater after all.

Can report the AE700 is definently now out in Australia, first shipments cleared last thursday, mine is currently on a truck driving across our rather large country :)

To do a 2.35:1 screen, you will need a panamorph, correct? Or alternatively, lose some brightness?

Originally posted by dakyman
Can report the AE700 is definently now out in Australia, first shipments cleared last thursday, mine is currently on a truck driving across our rather large country :)

EXCELLENT !!!!!!!

EDIT: Do not ask for dealer information!


WHat ceiling mount is everyone going to use??????????

>> WHat ceiling mount is everyone going to use??????????

I plan to use MonkeyMan's AE300/AE500 mount!
The Monkey_Man Panasonic PT-L300U and PT-L500U mount (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232749&highlight=l300u)

I've seen this question asked, but not yet answered - are the mounting holes the same specs as the 500?

Hitch:

Scope screens are great! No one who tries one ever goes back.

But if you have a bare wall, I strongly advise you to experiment with size first. With HDTV, screendoor is really the main limitation with how large you can go, but for DVD, the more limiting factor can be the low DVD resolution.

And carefully measure the height and width of scope movies with your projector. If it has any overscan at all, a 2.35:1 DVD image may be projected as narrow as 2.15:1. If possible check different inputs. With DVI/HDMI, many projectors now have different overscans depending on the input. Also, many scope movies are transferred to DVD with a 2.40:1 ratio.

Play a selection of your favorite scope films on your projector, and carefully measure the screen size. You will wind up with a screen which fits your projector. Then you can just mask the sides. Which as you say is far easier than masking top/bottom. BTW, masking makes a huge difference in perceived image quality.

I wouldn't worry about losing light output without a panamorph. Unless the screen is too large, I have never found it to be an issue.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Pip

Am I the only one who is concerned about the longevity of the moving iris? One of the main reasons I don't like the technology of dlp is the spinning color-wheel, which theoretically would have a much longer mtbf (mean time before failure) than a motor which has to move in two directions to open and close a shutter. In my mind (hopefully yours isn't the same :) ) this makes the 700u and the Sony 51 models the first generation of a new series. Hopefully my concern is unfounded, and these products will have a very long life. Has anyone else wondered about this?

In short, no, not worried.

...about that anyway

While you may be right (and I'm not expert so I'm not sure) that this is a new concept in projectors, there are a vast number of consumer electronics items using similar concepts. Cameras being the most obvious and directly comparable, but I'm sure there are others I'm too lazy to think about :)

Most home camcorders and digital video cameras have a "dynamic iris"

It is constantly adjusting....and those seem fine right?

Originally posted by price3
Am I the only one who is concerned about the longevity of the moving iris?
I haven't seen any technical details on this, but if their graphic of two swinging gates is correct, they would most likely implement that as two very light-weight leaves with galvanic actuators, which are extremely low wear and last practically forever. Stepper motors are rarely used for that sort of thing anymore. You see galvanic-style actuators in all sorts of things, including many laser barcode scanners. Those hardly ever fail and can achieve very high oscillation rates.

Me think Uwe is smart.

Originally posted by Pip
Hitch:

Scope screens are great! No one who tries one ever goes back.

But if you have a bare wall, I strongly advise you to experiment with size first. With HDTV, screendoor is really the main limitation with how large you can go, but for DVD, the more limiting factor can be the low DVD resolution.

And carefully measure the height and width of scope movies with your projector. If it has any overscan at all, a 2.35:1 DVD image may be projected as narrow as 2.15:1. If possible check different inputs. With DVI/HDMI, many projectors now have different overscans depending on the input. Also, many scope movies are transferred to DVD with a 2.40:1 ratio.

Play a selection of your favorite scope films on your projector, and carefully measure the screen size. You will wind up with a screen which fits your projector. Then you can just mask the sides. Which as you say is far easier than masking top/bottom. BTW, masking makes a huge difference in perceived image quality.

I wouldn't worry about losing light output without a panamorph. Unless the screen is too large, I have never found it to be an issue.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Pip
Pip-
Just curious about your setup as I've always been interested in a scope screen....

You said you don't use a panamorph? Do you manually zoom in and out depending on the AR of the movie you are watching? Or do you use an HTPC/Scalar and lose resolution on 16:9 and 4:3?

The only thing holding me back at this point would be the convinience factor. I would prefer not to have to manually adjust anything based on the AR (i.e. get up and move a panamorph back and forth or manually adjust zoom). And I really don't want to rely on an HTPC for ease of use issues (fiance). Is this low effort scope setup possible? Or am I being too picky :D

Sorry for going OT.
-Matt

P.S. When are the US units going to get here and who is hosting the first shootout? We haven't had one in a while!

ummmmmmmmmm

what he said (uwe that is)

Please keep OT comments out of official threads. 34 pages and counting is quite long enough without other discussion creeping in.

OK... simple questions from a newbie.

Is the AE and LT series the same PJ???

Is the AE700 as bright as 4805?
I am going to use a smaller screen approx. 92" and I read some comments that 4805 on a 92" screen is like a large plasma TV. Just wonder.

"Why does everyone rush to be one of the first people to get a projector?"

As happened to a lot of people with the HS20, if you wait for feedback you risk becoming one of the swelling crowd and having to wait months more to get it.

"Am I the only one who is concerned about the longevity of the moving iris?"

Uve is correct, the only thing I would be concerned with (I haven't seen the picture of the mechanism) is wear at the pivot points, if that's what they are.

Good design and materials choice could give sufficient durability, but I'd prefer to seea flexure design with no rubbing surfaces.

What is the CINEMA REALITY option do? I see it on page 46 in the owners manual. It says...

Set to "ON" when you would like 24 FPS pictures (such as movies) to project the source faithfully.

Is this a user selectable 3:2 pull-down option? If so, it is the first time I very saw this feature be able to be turned off by the user.

By the way, the user manual is available on Panasonic's website.

The manual does not provide the mounting hole pattern either.

I have email into ChiefMfg to see if they can tell us if their 500 mount will work with the 700.

Originally posted by Pip
Hitch:

And carefully measure the height and width of scope movies with your projector. If it has any overscan at all, a 2.35:1 DVD image may be projected as narrow as 2.15:1.

Pip

Could you elaborate on this Pip, how can a 2.35 movie project as 2.15?

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Any AE700 vs. Infocus 4805 matchups yet?

Dan

I've been hearing more "AE700 vs. PE8700" requests on my end ...
I don't think the two of these are in the same class IMO.
But then again ... neither is the PE8700.

There should be a nice ~$2500 street NATIVE 16:9 DLP out there.
Now THAT is what the world needs. :)

In any case, on my end the 700 will be shot-out against the PE8700 or PE7800 more than likely.

I got a email from ChiefMFG simply stating that...

Currently Chief does not make a mount for the PANASONIC AE700U, this is
a new projector.

No other info provided.

Speaking of the 8700:

Is anyone else bummed that PIP still hasn't caught on in <3500 PJ market when it is SO D*MNED common in the television market?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ericbres
[B]I've been hearing more "AE700 vs. PE8700" requests on my end ...
I don't think the two of these are in the same class IMO.
But then again ... neither is the PE8700.

Do you mean 7800 ??

Originally posted by jasallen
Speaking of the 8700:

Is anyone else bummed that PIP still hasn't caught on in <3500 PJ market when it is SO D*MNED common in the television market?

Yes, but the PIP on the 8700 can't do HD PIP.

-MP

Originally posted by bucky63
What is the CINEMA REALITY option do? I see it on page 46 in the owners manual. It says...

Set to "ON" when you would like 24 FPS pictures (such as movies) to project the source faithfully.

Is this a user selectable 3:2 pull-down option? If so, it is the first time I very saw this feature be able to be turned off by the user.

By the way, the user manual is available on Panasonic's website.

Maybe it projects at 48hz. Who knows with all the marketing spam they throw in the manuals.

Is anyone else bummed that PIP still hasn't caught on in <3500 PJ market when it is SO D*MNED common in the television market?

Most projectors are NOT tuners, and personally I don't think they ever should be. PIP=Content. A projector displays whatever signal it is given, it does not produce content. If you send your projector PIP content, it will display it just like a TV does. If that's what you are looking for, buy a tuner/box/card that can output PIP. Although now that I think about it more, it would be a nice feature for the projector to be able to split screen on different inputs (for example left side = component source, right side = HDMI source). This would be a way to get PIP even for HD sources (still would require two HD tuners with different cable types).

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Most projectors are NOT tuners, and personally I don't think they ever should be. PIP=Content. A projector displays whatever signal it is given, it does not produce content. If you send your projector PIP content, it will display it just like a TV does. If that's what you are looking for, buy a tuner/box/card that can output PIP. Although now that I think about it more, it would be a nice feature for the projector to be able to split screen on different inputs (for example left side = component source, right side = HDMI source). This would be a way to get PIP even for HD sources (still would require two HD tuners with different cable types).

I have a Dell 2001FP LCD monitor that offers s-video, composite,dvi and monitor hookups and it allows you to do PIP which is a nice touch. Just because it doesn't have a tuner doesn't mean it shouldn't allow you to do PIP with different inputs.

Gordo,

You start out borderline flaming my post and then come out agreeing?

Look, I don't want a TUNER, however, this projector has several inputs. You are suggesting that I should only use one of those inputs and get ANOTHER device that has several inputs and the ability to 'recombine' those images. I don't think that makes sense; the projector has inputs available, I would like it to be able to do some things with those inputs, UNDERSTANDING that it would compromise image quality.

Should projectors completely get rid of on-board de-interlacers too because they are only display devices? I think its the same category of issue.

jasallen
>"Should projectors completely get rid of on-board de-interlacers too because they are only display devices? I think its the same category of issue."
ooch. That's a big issue. Taken another way, "do most display devices/cable/satellite boxes de-interlacers stink?" Most, probably are not the greatest. There's no excuse for any good new device to have a stinky de-interlacer. But some will, to hit a price point. I'm sure there's still debate about the what is "stinky", though.

My point was just that even if the onboard de-interlacer IS stinky, its still a useful feature, if only for preparing your setup that will later be augmented by something off-board.

Likewise, a PIP or POP feature would be useful even if it was relatively poor (as it would, ironically, rely on an on-board scaler).

Of course, I'd love to see a high quality one even more.

EDIT:
Sorry for dragging everything so OFF TOPIC, I hereby request that we drop this so the thread can continue its primary purpose

I wonder how the new Sanyo Z3 will compare. It will also have a motorized
Iris and have a 3 year warranty. It also has a setting to remove VB and
a way to remove dust blobs. It was shown in Germany last week.

I would love to see them compared.

Yes!
The primary purpouse being reviews and obligatory screenshots!? Here here! Not like anyone has one or something.

Oh, when I hear PIP (until now) I always thought of multiple instances of the same input and not different inputs. Every TV I've seen with PIP just had two NTSC tuners in it and only split a standard coax cable TV signal (not very useful for a lot of us).

Anyway, getting back on track....

Can't wait for the ProjectorCentral detailed review. Tomorrow maybe?

Could someone please take a picture of the bottom of the AE700 so that old panny owners could see if theirs old projector mount will fit.

A motorized iris is not a dynamic iris.

Originally posted by price3
Am I the only one who is concerned about the longevity of the moving iris? One of the main reasons I don't like the technology of dlp is the spinning color-wheel, which theoretically would have a much longer mtbf (mean time before failure) than a motor which has to move in two directions to open and close a shutter. In my mind (hopefully yours isn't the same :) ) this makes the 700u and the Sony 51 models the first generation of a new series. Hopefully my concern is unfounded, and these products will have a very long life. Has anyone else wondered about this?

not worried

1) don't think it will brake in its life span
2) if it brakes, what is the worst that can happen (projector is stuck either in low or high brightness mode)

Gordo, some higher end Projectors do have a PIP function and no they don't use internal tuners, but you can use two different inputs.

PS what you describe is called POP

I have received my AE700 in Australia, so expect many reviews to start showing up on the net over the next week or so Id assume.

Originally posted by dakyman
I have received my AE700 in Australia, so expect many reviews to start showing up on the net over the next week or so Id assume.

Impressions dakyman?!?! :D

Originally posted by rogo
A motorized iris is not a dynamic iris.

rogo,
I thought the Z3 lacked a dynamic iris as well until this (http://presentation-systems.co.uk/pdfs/sanyo-plv-z3.pdf) pdf was posted in another thread.
On page 5 of the document the following quote appears:
"The automatically adjusting iris diaphragm...........ensures that the contrast and depth of projected images are increased at those crucial moments."

So right now it seems to be ambiguous, unless market-speak has co-opted the meaning of the word automatic.

ted

On page 4 of the pdf it states that there is a motorized iris on the Z3.

On the spec page it states electronic iris. "The inttegration of these three functions-motorized iris, automatic lamp control and 10-bit image processing-is grouped by Sanyo under the TOPAZreal (Total image Processing for Advanced Z-series)

Thankyou to everyone for all your reviews, you guys really helped me make my decision. If all goes well, the Panny 700 will be my first PJ ever (not bad for a newbie eh)!

Im will be using the 700 on a 110" widescreen (white, grain 1.0) for XBOX DVDs and games, and at some stage PC games and internet browsing.

My questions are:

1.The games that dont support widescreen (only 480p), will need to played in 4:3. Does the 700 produce a correct 4:3 image for these games?

2.I know that in 4:3 there will be black bars on either side, is burn in a factor here?

Keep up the good work guys

yeah it will produce a correct 4:3 image and no, burn in won't be a factor. enjoy:)

Would a 110" 16:9 manual Draper Luma (grain 1.1) be a suitable screen for the Panny 700?

The distance between the screen and where the projector will be sitting will be approx. 6.5m

For optimum results, should the screen be smaller, and is 6.5m too far?

Is anyone who has, or is going to purchase the AE-700 going to project from 20 or more feet onto a nine foot wide screen?
I like the Sony HS51 as well, but it does not have the throw capabilities the Panny has.
The AE-700 is at the top of my list because of its broad throw distance.
Just wondering if anyone else has these intension's as well.


Craig

A new, mildly unfavorable user opinion was posted on projedtor central last night from someone who honstly sounds like a jaded projector salesman to me. His "problems" section seems suspect. Just thought I'd post as it's one of the first contrary reviews I've seen:


Link (http://www.projectorcentral.com/part_opinions_details.cfm?opinion_id=4520)


I have had the projector in our demo room for 3 weeks. The setup was a breeze. We were thinking about ordering a dozen because of the initial review from CEDIA that was posted here in the projector news. However, after having it on for about 80 hrs, I must say that I'm a little disappointed. The image quality doesn't beat other (cheaper) projectors. Black looks pretty good, a bit better then any LCD projector I saw, but the overall image doesn't outperform older LCD projectors.The light output is superb though, it's almost as if you don't need a light controlled environment for it. The projected lamp life, connections and the noise level also make up a little bit for the image quality. IMO, the projector is not worth the $2300. I found a customer for the show room model, but I don't think I 'll be ordering more. The Panasonic PT-AE700U offers exactly the same performance as the Sanyo PLV-Z2 for a much higher price. The shorter bulb life on the Sanyo is made up for with lower price.
On a side note, I 'm a bit disappointed with the rating this projector was given even without reviewing it you gave it the nr.1 spot. You rolled back certain projectors on your within days. Also, the top ten list shouldn't be based on popularity, the performance of projectors should be the only criteria for the top 10.

Problems
The image is a bit blurry, through DVI some image quality loss if the cable is over 20 ft (regardless what brand of cable) it didn't happen' with other projectors.

I agree, very suspicious.

he says "same as z2" but at the VERY LEAST it's a combination of the best the z2 and AE500 have to offer. Also he mentioned both great black, and looks great in ambient light. Given other reviews that mention great color reproduction, I'm not sure were the 'bad' is coming in. I'm still feeling "winner".

Originally posted by suffolk112000
Is anyone who has, or is going to purchase the AE-700 going to project from 20 or more feet onto a nine foot wide screen?
I like the Sony HS51 as well, but it does not have the throw capabilities the Panny has.
The AE-700 is at the top of my list because of its broad throw distance.
Just wondering if anyone else has these intension's as well.

Craig

I'm leaning toward this projector. If I get it, it will be about 24 feet back from about a 9 1/2 foot wide screen. The long throw is one of the reasons I like this projector.

Ben

"Is anyone who has, or is going to purchase the AE-700 going to project from 20 or more feet onto a nine foot wide screen?
I like the Sony HS51 as well, but it does not have the throw capabilities the Panny has.
The AE-700 is at the top of my list because of its broad throw distance.
Just wondering if anyone else has these intension's as well."

I like the AE-700 for this reason as well. I was hoping to have the projector, receiver, DVD player, HTPC and whatever else I want hooked up all together in the back of a 24' room and project the picture on my DIY 9 foot wide screen. Setting up this way I'll only need to run longer speaker wire rather than having to run long AV cables. I'm waiting on some more user reviews before pulling the trigger though. I'm also in the dark as to whether projecting from this distance will in any way affect the picture quality. I'm a noob in regard to projectors as this would be my first. I have friends who are Sony dealers so I sort of wanted to wait on some HS51 reviews but if most everyone using the AE700 likes it I would probably get it since the HS51 is going to be significantly higher priced.

Doesn't this projector have a maximum throw due to focus capabilities? Could be wrong.

Now that these are showing up in Europe and Australia, anyone hear anything new on expected deliveries in the US.

My review

First let me say that I have owned a Sony HS1 and a Epson 51, old tech so the compassion should be very favourable.

Brightness – Out of this would no problems with ambient light can eat my dinner with a side light on watching a DVD with hardly any “wash out”.

Colours – Again superb my Sony CRT TV is placed under the PJ screen and it was possible to calibrate the PJ to look the same.

Contrast – See Colours

VB – Have only seen it once and was looking for it all the way through Star Wars, The Mummy and The Mummy Returns, it was only in one scene and was there and gone within about 2 secs, very mild I would not have even noticed it if a) I was not looking for it, and b) I had not been told and shown on various forums what it was.

Screendoor – What sceendoor, even from a few inches away I cannot see it (you will notice from my old PJs I would know what to look for).

Softness – Not at all, lovely sharp image.

Lens Shift – This is the only let down, don’t get me wrong it works well and does not distort the image, but if you have the PJ ceiling / high wall mounted you get hardly any horizontal shift. That said I was able to use my old wall mount.

All in all am I happy with my purchase?

EXTRACTIC

Edited to say the below

I fed the PJ through a Harmen Kardan 506 DVD player conected via component to a Iscan Pro.

The reason for this that was the only real way to set up old PJs.

Therefore my tweeks are on the Iscan as I find it easier to use analogue knobs for these things than digital menus.

PS if anyone thinks I would be better of connecting directly Via component let me know

EXTRACTIC

Is that Extra Extatic? :)

GREAT REVIEW! Thank you!

Originally posted by JonMace
My review

First let me say that I have owned a Sony HS1 and a Epson 51, old tech so the compassion should be very favourable.

Brightness – Out of this would no problems with ambient light can eat my dinner with a side light on watching a DVD with hardly any “wash out”.

Colours – Again superb my Sony CRT TV is placed under the PJ screen and it was possible to calibrate the PJ to look the same.

Contrast – See Colours

VB – Have only seen it once and was looking for it all the way through Star Wars, The Mummy and The Mummy Returns, it was only in one scene and was there and gone within about 2 secs, very mild I would not have even noticed it if a) I was not looking for it, and b) I had not been told and shown on various forums what it was.

Screendoor – What sceendoor, even from a few inches away I cannot see it (you will notice from my old PJs I would know what to look for).

Softness – Not at all, lovely sharp image.

Lens Shift – This is the only let down, don’t get me wrong it works well and does not distort the image, but if you have the PJ ceiling / high wall mounted you get hardly any horizontal shift. That said I was able to use my old wall mount.

All in all am I happy with my purchase?

EXTRACTIC

Edited to say the below

I fed the PJ through a Harmen Kardan 506 DVD player conected via component to a Iscan Pro.

The reason for this that was the only real way to set up old PJs.

Therefore my tweeks are on the Iscan as I find it easier to use analogue knobs for these things than digital menus.

PS if anyone thinks I would be better of connecting directly Via component let me know

Its good to see the reviews are still positive about this projector.

Craig

Originally posted by AugDog
Now that these are showing up in Europe and Australia, anyone hear anything new on expected deliveries in the US.

Yup ... just tracked them ... they should be here tomorrow.
Very exciting! Or should I say "EXTRATIC"?!?!?!

I just hope I have a chance to review one before they head out the door ... all my pictures from CEDIA came out like poop. And I even took them in the dark room in over at the hotel rather than on the show floor. :mad:

I would have corrected that spelling mistake but it would have left jasallen post looking silly, and any way I like the idea of Extra Extatic :-)

"A new, mildly unfavorable user opinion was posted on projedtor central last night from someone who honstly sounds like a jaded projector salesman to me. His "problems" section seems suspect. "

Sounds pretty straight to me, but who knows...

I personaly can not understand that review to me it does not make sense but I these things are down to the individual.

Originally posted by JonMace
I would have corrected that spelling mistake but it would have left jasallen post looking silly, and any way I like the idea of Extra Extatic :-)

Thanks :)

I read on a german retailer page that the AE700 has a relatively high, unadjustable overscan even via HDMI 576p.
As far as i saw overscan was not discussed in this thread.
Any experiences or comments?

Uh oh. I hope that it is adjustable with HDMI. Not being able to do digital 1:1 mapping would be a blow against the AE700. I wonder if it can do 1:1 mapping through the analog computer input?

Originally posted by jasallen
Actually, EVERYONE is right.

The Proj can be position 13% from the top or 13 % from the bottom, which correlates to 63% from dead center perpendicular to the screen.

when moving the projecor in that range from -63 to zero to +63 one can achieve a range of 2.26 picture heights difference from bottom of low end range to top of high-end range.

Some people are arguing "how much can the top of the pic move?" and think they are hearing an answer of 13%, which is wrong, its 63%.

Others are arguing "how much can the lens be from the top of screen", and hearing 63%, which is wrong, cuz its 13% from the TOP of the image.

Ok, I am really new to this. But doesn't it matter how low the screen can go depending on how far back the projector is?

yes, and zoom affects it too; but since those same factors affect screen size, the percentage of movement relative screen-size remains the same.

So, with a normal ceiling mount on ae700, how low from the ceiling does the projector set? In other words, I plan to get a 92" screen = 45" height. 45 * .13 = 5.85". if the projector hangs a foot below the ceiling, I can hang the screen ~17.85 below the ceiling. Accounting for screen border of course.

*EDIT* I see the projector can be tilted slightly also but not recommended too much because of keystone distortions.

Ted, good to know. But it's still true that merely motorizing the iris doesn't make it dynamic. :)

I hope to learn it is indeed dynamic,

The Hitachi PJ TX100 has a colour uniformity adjustment available in its service menu. Thats interesting.

How good will the AE700's colour uniformity be and can it be adjusted like the Hitachi TX100?

Anyone have reasonable estimate of real world light output and contrast ratio yet?

Also, it's ECSTATIC
Here is a link http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ecstatic

Strangely, I checked NUCLEAR is not pronounced NUCULAR either. hmmmmmmm

The german site Cine4Home.de (http://www.cine4home.de/) has a tuning write-up of the 700 up. After a filter tweak they got the promised 2000:1 calibrated to D65 but they do not mention actual lumens output. Guess we'll have to wait for that until the full review.

I read the article too and it is a bit of good/bad news thing. The good news is the pj was rather good out of the box. After some slight tuning they got perfect colours and 950:1 CR. Not bad for an LCD pj, but not the promised 2000:1. They then continued checking all modes and found VIDEO mode which did give the higher contrast, but with too much blue in the image. Tuning that decreased the high CR. They then decided that instead of digital tuning, they should use optical tuning. Using a special filter they were able to achieve perfect colours and better than 2000:1 CR! This is quite amazing as I doubt my DLP can do that. So the good news is that this is a good pj. The better news is it can be an amazingly good pj IF you can get your hands on a professional tailor made colour filter and a professional colour measuring tool. Mmmm.. Should I be glad or not? I guess this means if Panasonic ups its quality control a bit and integrates the filter they really have a winner and could sell lots of these gems. Those of us who make a hobby of tweaking their pj until it's perfect should have lots of fun with it :)
PS: I could not find any mention of lumens output either, but they did say it gives enough light to project a still bright image of 2.7 m wide (!), that's about 106" wide, not diagonal.
PS2: Keep in mind these people seem to have a commercial interest as they offer a calibration service. The review looks reliable but thought you should know.

Edit: I just read their tuning review on my DLP projector, the Optoma/ThemeScene H30. They claim it does 900:1 CR after tuning. When using the same tricks as above (filter, advanced tuning) they can get it up to about 1700:1. Those of you who have followed Tom Guiterman's extremely long thread about the H30 know it is considered an excellent pj, and to me it certainly is good enough to enjoy everything I throw at it. If we are to trust the people at cine4home, I guess this means the Panasonic AE700 is an excellent pj and the first affordable alternative for DLP, if not a better one.

Virtually all digital projectors would benefit from a colour correction filter and tuning with Colorfacts or Smart III.

I don't doubt that. But I have always been quite happy with my PAL and NTSC versions of DVE. I also am not sure if a typical 'living room cinema', ie. one that does not have black walls, floor and ceiling, would benefit from an increased CR from 1000 to 2000:1.

Originally posted by Mike Versteeg
PS2: Keep in mind these people seem to have a commercial interest as they offer a calibration service. The review looks reliable but thought you should know.

Ekkehart from cine4home posts here alot and his previous reviews were not biased in any way, so i doubt he somehow favored AE700.

For a 100 inch screen, i see the panny 700 can be mounted anywhere from 3.1 meters to 6.3 (i think) meters. Since i can mount it in any of these positions, am i better off putting it closer of further, or wont it make any difference to picture quality if u zoom the lens?

Originally posted by dazbug
For a 100 inch screen, i see the panny 700 can be mounted anywhere from 3.1 meters to 6.3 (i think) meters. Since i can mount it in any of these positions, am i better off putting it closer of further, or wont it make any difference to picture quality if u zoom the lens?

Hey good question dazbug. One that I have intending to ask but didn't.
I was thinking with luminance falling off with distance to the third power, the fc rating on projector central seemed to ignore this small bit of physics
Hence wouldn't the closer 3.1m installation be significantly brighter than the 6.3m installation (with same size 100" picture)?
I surmised that was why the Z2 and AE500 had such short throws as they only had <1000ANSI

Anybody care to advise whether these assumptions are correct or not?

It would nice to see manufacturers take the approach that Epson did with their Cinema 500 and incorporate a built-in colour correction filter. Assuming that it is correctly implemented, the need for calibration is eliminated and the contrast is maximized.

Actually, it i sbetter to project from as far as possible and from the centerline of the screen.
the light bounces straight back towards the viewers and not so much to the side walls as would happen when the same size image is projected from a closer position.

Originally posted by rogo
Ted, good to know. But it's still true that merely motorizing the iris doesn't make it dynamic. :)

Ok, we admit it. ;)

I hope to learn it is indeed dynamic,

I fear somewhere in the footnotes of the manual there will be a sentence in small type that says "automatic iris......controlled dynamically with remote.:)

ted

Originally posted by Mike Versteeg
PS2: Keep in mind these people seem to have a commercial interest as they offer a calibration service. The review looks reliable but thought you should know.
.



As we calibrate "every" projector we are not biased in any way. When you read our Infocus 4805 test, which is obviously a projector which does not need any calibration, and see the great results we gave it you will see that we actually favor projectors, which are perfect out of the box ;)




Ekkehart from cine4home posts here alot and his previous reviews were not biased in any way, so i doubt he somehow favored AE700.


Exactly, thanks :). I favor no one. I will get the Z3 these days and i can't wait to see what Sanyo managed to do this time..

The only thing i have to admit is that I am an LCOS fan :) This is still the best projection technology in my eyes when done right...



I might add that this was NOT the test yet. The full review of the PT700 will come next week (30+ pages, as usual :) )




Regards,
Ekkehart,www.cine4home.de

Originally posted by Cine4Home
As we calibrate "every" projector we are not biased in any way. When you read our Infocus 4805 test, which is obviously a projector which does not need any calibration, and see the great results we gave it you will see that we actually favor projectors, which are perfect out of the box ;)
Regards,
Ekkehart,www.cine4home.de

Ekkehart,

Question for you re the AE700,
Was the CR measured in dynamic or fixed mode?

Re the Z3:
A while back we speculated about a dynamic Iris on the Z3 and concluded it was not in the cards. The latest pdf we've seen refers to an "automatic" iris. Has Sanyo indeed implemented a dynamic iris after all, or is it too early to tell?

ted

Can anyone using this projector with an HTPC comment on whether the AE700 has any EDID problems with Nvidia cards (especially the 6800 series)? Did the previous L500/AE500 have any Nvidia/EDID issues?

Question for you re the AE700,
Was the CR measured in dynamic or fixed mode?

Re the Z3:
A while back we speculated about a dynamic Iris on the Z3 and concluded it was not in the cards. The latest pdf we've seen refers to an "automatic" iris. Has Sanyo indeed implemented a dynamic iris after all, or is it too early to tell?,



The CR was measured in the Dynamic iris mode. When you switch it off, the Projector has no Iris at all and therfore only half of the Contrast or less.

About the Z3, as far as i know this projector has no automatic Iris. Unless they made a "last second" update (which i doubt) this projector has just a normal electric powered Iris. But next week I know for sure...


Regards,
Ekkehart

Originally posted by Scott B
It would nice to see manufacturers take the approach that Epson did with their Cinema 500 and incorporate a built-in colour correction filter. Assuming that it is correctly implemented, the need for calibration is eliminated and the contrast is maximized.

Agreed. Having the filter built in actually makes the CR spec worthwhile since it can do it out of the box rather than the common CR which is a "if you get a filter and tweak this" potential spec on most PJs.

It is impressive the AE700 does around 1000:1 out of the box with no filter. That's a little under what my Epson 500 is probably doing now with its filter.

I look forward to the D5 panel PJs...seeing as the D5 has what, a 50% higher CR at the panel, I'd guess that if you slap a dynamic iris with that you'd have quite the high CR.

Give me an Epson 700 that uses the D5 panels and has a dynamic iris or something like that along with the built in colour filter and can produce a 2500:1- 3000:1 CR out of the box. Thanks:)

I am curious as to how cine4home determines there is "too much blue" in the picture. Panasonic goes to extreme measures (according to their propoganda) to ensure that color reproduction is very accurate. Then, they put this thing out and the first professional reviewer that grabs it says, "Ack, too much blue... needs a filter, slap!"

I am not trying to say that Cine4Home is incorrect. I am just trying to understand how he can so easily determine that the projector is not calibrated correctly after Panasonic goes through this kind of effort to get true colors:

During development of the PT-AE700, to realize an image on screens at home true to the intentions of all creators, Panasonic consulted with top Hollywood colourist Mr. David Bernstein. Panasonic developed and equipped the PT-AE700 with new, unique integrated cinema quality circuitry and core image optimizers to meet the strict demands of colourists. We incorporated into the PT-AE700 the artistic creativity of David Bernstein, who has an unrivaled sense of picture-quality colour coordination. Thereby was born the PT-AE700, an LCD projector with a stunning picture reproduction that is truly worthy of the accolade "Hollywood picture quality."

Is there some measurement tool that Cine4Home can use which can indicate a blue push or red push etc? If so, why isn't Panasonic using this measurement tool and getting it correct?

Is this a subjective measurment? If so, should we take Cine4Home's opinion over Bernstein's?

Why would the projector be in obvious need of tuning after Bernstein's help and all.

Reaper

If this is a legal question....

Where is everyone picking up their DVI to HDMI cables, I just found out Ram Electronics' won't ship until sometime after the Oct 20th (and I REALLY am hoping to have my 700 by then!)

Originally posted by reaper
I am curious as to how cine4home determines there is "too much blue" in the picture. Panasonic goes to extreme measures (according to their propoganda) to ensure that color reproduction is very accurate. Then, they put this thing out and the first professional reviewer that grabs it says, "Ack, too much blue... needs a filter, slap!"

If you read review carefully then you will notice that colors are incorrect only in mode where you can obtain 2000:1 - in other modes they are correct.
As to how he measures - he wrote that he is using Milori ColorFacts. That is professional package (software + hardware) to calibrate projectors - many other sites use them.
Its little expensive for normal home usage - $2000+ :)

Ekkehart,

What filter(s) did you end up using to obtain the 2000:1 contrast (in Video mode)?

beocop

Originally posted by Kroot
If you read review carefully

Can't read German :(
Google language tools blocked at work for some reason... :( :(

Originally posted by reaper

I am not trying to say that Cine4Home is incorrect. I am just trying to understand how he can so easily determine that the projector is not calibrated correctly after Panasonic goes through this kind of effort to get true colors:

Please note this was for the Video Mode which measured about 10K. Natural Mode was calibrated at 6.5K.
Manufacturers colour balance video toward blue because Video looks better bright (blue is perceived as brighter) and most TV watching is done under incandescent light which tends to be warmer (3.8K) which tends to lower the perceived colour balance.

Is there some measurement tool that Cine4Home can use which can indicate a blue push or red push etc? If so, why isn't Panasonic using this measurement tool and getting it correct?

A glance at the provide pics should be enough. However one would use a colour temperature meter plus a system like SMART III or COLOURFACTS.
Panasonic is using measuring tools - see above re Video mode vs. Natural mode.

Is this a subjective measurement?
Reaper

No.

ted

jasallen, try bluejeanscable.com

reaper, it's been said repeatedly. To maximize contrast, you pump up the gains (before any clipping). Then you measure grayscale. If there is a color bias, you neutralize it with a filter. In this case, if there is too much blue-green, you'd need a red color correction filter. Of course, it takes some know-how to be sure whether to use a FL-D, CC20R, CC30R or whatever.

Originally posted by Kroot
As to how he measures - he wrote that he is using Milori ColorFacts. That is professional package (software + hardware) to calibrate projectors - many other sites use them. Its little expensive for normal home usage - $2000+ :)

Also, if this is the case, why couldn't/wouldn't Panasonic buy and use this software. It may be too expensive for Home use, but not for Panasonic.

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
Can't read German :(
Google language tools blocked at work for some reason... :( :(
try Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/)

ted

OK, I found a translation tool and read his comments. I think I understand what's going on now...

reap

Yeah - Google is famous for stopping in middle of translation of large web pages ;(
Thats why i use Babelfish - its little worse in quality than Google, but atleast it works ;)

rlindo
Expect D5 Epson projectors to produce 1800:1. That is the figure given in an article about D5 and auto-iris technology. Dynamic range 9000-10000:1 is mentioned. I do not see 2500:1 cr happening.

Cine4Home
Is the tweaked video mode supposed to be used with all content. Can you give any lumens figures? Many people would need that information before buying a tweaked projector which I could see myself doing.

Originally posted by jasallen
If this is a legal question....

Where is everyone picking up their DVI to HDMI cables, I just found out Ram Electronics' won't ship until sometime after the Oct 20th (and I REALLY am hoping to have my 700 by then!)

The dealer you ordered your AE700 from isn't offering cables?

edit - ARGH! Darn that Enter key ... sent my post before I was done.
Anyhow, if they don't ... DVIGear and Gefen both have nice DVI and HDMI product. I had a chance to check them both out while at CEDIA this year.

Originally posted by Ericbres
The dealer you ordered your AE700 from isn't offering cables?


Well, I feel stupid now! :)

I never asked -- and hell, if they miss the upsell opportunity why should I give it to 'em? :p

-Jason

PS. Eric you mentioned you expected some 700s in today, any updates on your end?

AE700 preliminary tunning, use your prefered translation site:

http://www.cine4home.de/

"Virtually all digital projectors would benefit from a colour correction filter and tuning with Colorfacts or Smart III."

True, but everything I've seen before yielded maybe 25% better CR.

In any case, it's fantastic news that the 700 can do 2000:1.

"I also am not sure if a typical 'living room cinema', ie. one that does not have black walls, floor and ceiling, would benefit from an increased CR from 1000 to 2000:1."

It will if there is good light control. In dark scenes the room will go dark even if the walls are white.

"About the Z3, as far as i know this projector has no automatic Iris. Unless they made a "last second" update (which i doubt) this projector has just a normal electric powered Iris. "

Dynamic would be best, but it's great that it's motorized. The only other HT pj's with it that I know about are much more expensive (Yamaha, Sharp 12K, Sanyo PLV70).

Originally posted by Cine4Home
I might add that this was NOT the test yet. The full review of the PT700 will come next week (30+ pages, as usual :) )
Given the great technical lengths you go to when evaluating projectors, and the sheer amount of (quite carefully written) prose and pictures/graphs you spew out for a single review, I'm amazed you don't charge for your reviews. A lot of sites and magazines would. Don't get me wrong, this is not a suggestion to start charging, just a compliment.

Originally posted by dazbug
For a 100 inch screen, i see the panny 700 can be mounted anywhere from 3.1 meters to 6.3 (i think) meters. Since i can mount it in any of these positions, am i better off putting it closer of further, or wont it make any difference to picture quality if u zoom the lens?

When mounting my IF 7200 I read that it is best to put a pj closer to the rear of its range. Had to do with optics. I was told that you get a better picture with the longer more narrow light cone.

Dynamic would be best, but it's great that it's motorized. The only other HT pj's with it that I know about are much more expensive (Yamaha, Sharp 12K, Sanyo PLV70).


The Hitachi TX100 has a motorized iris too and is only € 1990.-

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de