Consolidated AE700 thread- Ban is lifted [Text View] - Page 4

billwil

10-07-04, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by jasallen

<SNIP>
...he's seemed extremely helpful so far, so I wouldn't like to question his motives (euros/dollars) and risk offending :)
<SNIP>

Is making money on hard work and good information really considered by most an offensive motive? Wow. If Cine4Home wants to make money on the information they painstakingly research and gather, more power to 'em. Anything they give to the community is simply gravy for us, and very generous of them. Jasallen, I'm not flaming you either or trying to offend you...I was just surprised by your statement. I would hope people aren't ashamed of making money legally and ethically...:)

I understood PeterJK's comments to be a simple question as to wether this is free or for fee information. Doesn't seem offensive.

Now on to my question. I understand from other responses that the only need for this filtration is when in video mode and trying to achieve the most CR. Is it confirmed that in one of the, say, cinema modes or natural mode, that the colors rendered are failry correct, even at the loss of significant CR? I know this has been suggested (based on a translation), but I read a translation of the article, and couldn't quite confirm this (wish I read German...). Just looking for clarification.

Thanks.

Bill~

cpc

10-07-04, 05:02 PM

Projector Central review was interesting.

...and the cinehome review, translated at least, is interesting too.

Bottom line, when they calibrate using filters and get around 2000:1, are they talking about measured ANSI or ON/OFF contrast? Or are they talking about the variable contrast from a bright scene to a dark scene ala the AI function? Or is the dynamic iris a function of adjusting the iris for each and every scene? That sounds busy and kinda weird. The iris will be changing quite a bit in many movies, right?

Would like to hear about black levels too. High CR is great but if black levels are grey, then there's room for improvement.

Also, was this measured 2000:1 contrast rating in HIGH lamp mode?

Still would like to hear more about Vertical Banding and peak-a-boo's. Of course, if they aren't there, then great, but sometimes we've seen them but reviewers make no mention of them. Nice to see Projector Central discussing vertical banding. Sounds like its there, but not horrible, according to them. Sounds like it'll be a personal preference from user to user how bad each unit is and how much the owner will tolerate.

The comment about scaling being soft is a bummer. Of course, they did not explain the source and connection they used.

Also, as I mentioned before, I hope someone finds out a little more about the colour uniformity of the AE700. The Epson/Yamaha are fairly good and have processing for that. The Hitachi seems to have a service menu adjustment. The AE700 is sounding good, but if it suffers from the same variable colour non-uniformity as the AE100, L200/300 and 500 then thats going to be a big disappointment.

PeterJK

10-07-04, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by billwil
Now on to my question. I understand from other responses that the only need for this filtration is when in video mode and trying to achieve the most CR. Is it confirmed that in one of the, say, cinema modes or natural mode, that the colors rendered are failry correct, even at the loss of significant CR?

Based on my own interpretation of Google's translation, the answer is yes:

"In the DVD dVD-Filmprojektion a akkurate color representation and brightness distribution are particularly important in the picture. For this the "Cinema1" mode is already well suitable. In our analysis however it showed itself that the "Natural" mode in connection with the color temperature attitude" - 1 "a still better approximation to the necessary video standard reaches:"

They go on to say:

"The picture is coloured almost perfectly, the schwarzwert (black levels?) very good and the maximum brightness also for large display widths suitably. During above perfect tuning the Panasonic beginner achieves a proud contrast relationship of approximately 950:1, clearly more than all other LCD projectors of this preisklasse at the market."

They THEN go on to discuss tuning in video mode to achieve a CR of 2000:1, and the problems with color balance along the way. But in the other modes, the suggestion seems to be that color balance and reproduction are pretty much spot on.

PeterJK

10-07-04, 05:20 PM

A request for cine4home.de: Would it be possible to mention in your full review of the AE700 how it compares to previous LCD projectors? I don't expect you to go into full detail or anything (i'm sure that could be done in a full shootout article ;)), but could you briefly mention if the AE700 outperforms other recent LCDs like the Hitachi PJ-TX100? The suggestion in the ProjectorCentral.com review seems to be that it's the best LCD projector they have seen, but they don't explicitly say that - if it is the best LCD model you have reviewed, could you say so in your review? And if not, could you mention which projectors you think outperform it? As a potential buyer looking for absolute reassurance, I would be greatly obliged :)

cpc

10-07-04, 05:23 PM

...and the Epson/Yamaha, the current LCD contrast king.

Also the Infocus SP 5000. Comparing with the Z3 will be nice. First time we'll hear anything about the Z3 for that matter.

jasallen

10-07-04, 05:31 PM

Bill: nothing wrong with making money, obviously.

However, yeah:

A: I think it would be wrong to say everything works great with a filter now for a low low fee I'll be happy to tell you what filter that is

B: I do NOT think that is what Cine4 was doing

C: I think professional calibrators such as him offer much more value than a one-size fits all filter recomendation, so I think any suggestion that such a little thing would risk his/their profit margins could be rather offensive.

I am fully aware that noone had intended any insult.

For the record, the reason I appreciate participators in this forumis because they are not pushing their wares. There is nothing wrong with making money, but if someone were to come on a forum such as this, and push the value of an add-on, while offering to "provide that add-on for a fee" then that would be wrong. So let's be glad the people involved in this forum don't do that.

John Tuohy

10-07-04, 05:42 PM

http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae700.htm

Minke

10-07-04, 06:43 PM

The review is positive, but certainly not as astounding as I'd hoped. I think my initial quandry over whether to buy my first projector now or wait for the next generation LCDs with D5 panels (and also the Sony black screen, hopefully) has been answered -- I will wait.
I am very pleased that LCD technology is overcoming its few drawbacks, though, as I was thinking that I would need to get a HD2+ DLP projector to get the CR and black levels that I desired. Another 50% CR gain with the D5 panels and hopefully the elimination of all VB is enough to wait 6+ months for.

darinp2

10-07-04, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Minke
Another 50% CR gain with the D5 panels and hopefully the elimination of all VB is enough to wait 6+ months for.
Who do you expect to have that in 6+ months? And how much are you expecting it will be? I wouldn't expect Panasonic to have a projector like this until this time next year. Maybe Epson will have a D5 projector in that 6+ months, but just looking at the price for their TW500 will show that it may be in another price category. Sanyo just announced the Z3, so I don't see them doing a quick turnaround with a D5 at a similar pricepoint. Maybe Hitachi will since the TX100 has been out a while, but in the past they were behind the others in releasing for a generation of panels (I believe the TX100 has the same panels as the Z2).

We still have HS51 reviews to look forward to in the short term.

--Darin

Minke

10-07-04, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by darinp2
Who do you expect to have that in 6+ months? And how much are you expecting it will be? I wouldn't expect Panasonic to have a projector like this until this time next year.

Those are all fine points. Just because the panel is in production models (presumably) in 6 months doesn't mean that the projectors using them have ideal characteristics or are affordable. One can only hope. And while I'm hoping, I'd like the smaller footprint of the D5 to encourage 1920x1080 panels in (reasonably) inexpensive LCD projectors soon, but that may simply be unbridled optimism. :)

Anyway, I think that unless the Sony HS51 really does close what it's hyped to do, I'll probably wait and see what PJ technology is offering when the black screens are available.

crumpet

10-07-04, 07:44 PM

Hey Dazbug check your PM !

tlink

10-07-04, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Minke
The review is positive, but certainly not as astounding as I'd hoped.

I noticed that while the Projector Central review was positive, the AE700 didn't appear to make their list of "Highly Recommended Home Theater Projectors." It is, however, listed in the Number 1 spot on their list of "Popular Home Theater Projectors" for the low cost category. I assume that the "popularity" rating is based on the pre-order sales for the AE700?

ianken

10-07-04, 08:19 PM

FWIW I've pre-ordered one and will be puting it up against my SE20HD in a no holds bared steel cage death match.

I am sick of the SE20s poor PC interop via DVI, among other things. I've talked to two friends who have samples to play with and they have raves to say about it. The only negative thing I heard was a note of very very slight VB noticed on one scene in one movie.

So, maybe sometime at the end of the moth I'll have some results to post comnparing the two units. I'm sure I will miss the sheer output of the light cannon but since I'm only throwing a 92" image I think 1000 lumen will be more than enough.

I figure this thing will hold me over until Sanyo give me a D5 based 1080p unit. And besides, my SE20HD+hushbox+spare bulb will easily cover the cost of switch. A big financial noop as it were.

funkapus

10-07-04, 08:45 PM

After reading the projectorcentral review I'm left uncertain whether this is exactly what I want.

I don't currently have a projector, and have been lurking in these forums for many months trying to figure out exactly what to get. My primary use for it will be for DVDs and xbox/ps2, possibly hooking up an HTPC later on. I'm unlikely to watch much TV on it. From the projectorcentral review it sounds like this might not be the best solution for DVD material.

Am I wasting a bunch of money if I use this projector primarily for DVDs? Would it be smarter to buy something like a ScreenPlay 4805 and hold out for a 1080p projector several years down the line? Does anyone have any kernels of wisdom for me? I initially considered an X1 but a friend of mine bought one and I saw the rainbows right away.

Apologies for the noob question, but I've been following this thread and others for a while and don't think I've seen a direct answer to this question. Every time I think I've made up my mind, I find something else to get freaked out about and delay the purchase. ;)

Vogon Poet

10-07-04, 09:06 PM

Have you had a chance to view a 4805? If you saw rainbows on the X1 you may see them on the 4805 as well. You mentioned video games being one of your primary uses..your eyes scanning across the screen is sure to bring out rainbows if you are susceptible to them.

As for the 700, it seems another shipment is going out next week. (US)

funkapus

10-07-04, 09:19 PM

That's an excellent point about eye movement in video games, I hadn't thought about that.

I guess what I'm thinking is that if I can get something like a BenQ 6100 for 36% of the price, then is that what I should be doing in my particular usage scenario?

I'm happy to pay more for better image quality, but if I'm not really going to be able to see an improved image because I'm watching SD DVD, then that's not money well spent.

Argh...torn...tired of overthinking this purchase...:)

tbacos

10-07-04, 09:33 PM

"Argh...torn...tired of overthinking this purchase..."

Then you're browsing the wrong website, funkapus. Overthinking is 90% of what goes on around here... :)

HeadRusch

10-07-04, 09:35 PM

Actually, after reading the ProjectorCentral review, I'm left asking myself: Did they actually review the projector, or did they just copy half of that review from some printed sales brochure.

I'm amazed, unless I missed it, that nowhere in there did they talk about LCD's #1 image problem: Black Level!!! Contrast has improved...great...but how does the black level compare to the dark grey of older projectors...?? The 2.0 zoom is TRULY an amazing feat......

Just gotta find out about those black levels first.....

Jcam9

10-07-04, 09:45 PM

I liked how they mentioned the "smoothscreen" technology is a tremendous breakthrough virtually eliminating all screendoor issues associated with LCD projectors but still recommend sitting 2x seating distance back??

Oh, well. Still not worried. I am sticking to my pre-order.

EHUFF

10-07-04, 09:59 PM

I know this is the AE700 thread, but since many are on the fence between the AE700 and Sony HS51 I thought this relevent. Originally posted by S. Kaneda in the HS51 thread. The Sony HS50 (non U.S. version of the HS51) was officially announced in Japan today. Please use the HS51 thread for posting solely about the HS51.

There are some similar features to the AE700 like dynamic iris, color correction technology ect. Dec 1st release date (In Japan anyway).

All of the following sites are in the Japanese language.

SONY Japan website: http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/Peripheral/Projector/VPL-HS50/index.html
specification: http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/Peripheral/Projector/VPL-HS50/spec.html
front : http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_02.jpg
rear : http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_03.jpg
advanced Iris device: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_06.jpg
etc: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony.htm

DanHouck

10-07-04, 10:12 PM

You never know what you're going to get if you wait. On the one hand, the AE700 is here now at a killer price. And there's also the HS51 for those of you who can use a shorter throw projector. And a 720P DLP for half the usual going rate.

On the other hand, the D5 panels will be in the hands of a number of manufacturers who we haven't heard from lately well before CES, like Sanyo. And then there's the new Canon LCoS.

So if you don't have a projector now, it is a tug of war between patience and decent products at great prices now. If you do have one, like me, you can afford to wait for another 6 months. These big jumps forward (and we are in one now) tend to come in spurts. Since I are an ex-spurt, I am going to wait and see what shows up around CES. Besides which it is the perfect excuse to go to the show. :)

Dan

rwestley

10-07-04, 10:14 PM

It should be pointed out that projector central did highly recommend
the AE700 it is at the top of the review to the left.

uwradu

10-07-04, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by HeadRusch
Did they actually review the projector, or did they just copy half of that review from some printed sales brochure.
Originally posted by Jcam9
I liked how they mentioned the "smoothscreen" technology is a tremendous breakthrough virtually eliminating all screendoor issues associated with LCD projectors but still recommend sitting 2x seating distance back??
I'm not at all impressed with the "review". First there's some knee-jerk reaction (MUST sit 1.6 times screen width away, less "competitive" for DVD because LCD, without much justification for either reasoning), then there's just odd stuff, like interlaced input looking better than progressive because of combing--seems that would just be a sign of a crappy DVD player they used. There's also this bizzare obsession that this unit is best shelf mounted, simply because it is front exhausted. Obviously, if they went to all THAT trouble, why annoy Panasonic by ceiling mounting it? And he could have really saved himself the rambling paragraph about the fan noise you'll experience if you watch movies on Mount Pinatubo. First he goes on about how extremely quiet this unit is, then he muddles it up by mentioning louder fan modes if you're altitudinally challenged.

Anyway, it seems written more by a fall break intern than anything else.

potus

10-07-04, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by HeadRusch
Actually, after reading the ProjectorCentral review, I'm left asking myself: Did they actually review the projector, or did they just copy half of that review from some printed sales brochure.

I'm amazed, unless I missed it, that nowhere in there did they talk about LCD's #1 image problem: Black Level!!! Contrast has improved...great...but how does the black level compare to the dark grey of older projectors...?? The 2.0 zoom is TRULY an amazing feat......

Just gotta find out about those black levels first.....

Well, the two are intimately related. The contrast ratio is brightest level divided by darkest level. Assuming relatively constant "brightest level" (similar lumen output), then the ONLY way to increase contrast is to LOWER the black level..

Thus, increased CR implies lower black levels. (at similar lumen ratings..)

Now some of the CR improvements of ae700 are dynamic AI tricks. There is NOT really much CR improvement within any single frame (ANSI CR). So that in a bright scene, for example, the blacks within the scene won't be as black as they would be on a "static" 2000:1CR projector (like many DLPs)... But it shouldn't really matter. The brightness of the scene should make your eye's iris close down, and you won't notice the "grays" (theoretically.) They will seem pretty darn black. Conversely, in a dark scene, where your eys's iris is wide open and in the abscence of bright areas, you tend to notice the "gray blacks", the projector's AI should reduce the lumen output using its iris/lamp mod trick, darkening the grays to black... I think that's the theory anyways.

There seem to be mixed reviews on whether or not it really works...

You know, I wonder why DLP's couldn't use these same tricks and get outlandishly high CR ratings? Perhaps 2000:1 is good enough?

- Frank

bob53

10-07-04, 10:44 PM

I too am chomping at the bit re: as it comes down to either the 4805 (great contrast, less res) or the 700 (less contrast, better res)... I know where to find and demo the 4805 but I'm not certain where to do so for the 700. $ost$o currently offers the 500 at a very nice price but I doubt they will get in the 700 any time soon. Bummer... I know InFocus has a great in home demo policy, does any Panny distributor offer a similar demo?

Thanks,

Bob

scotty144

10-07-04, 11:10 PM

REALITY CHECK TIME!!!!!!!!!

I have been following this thread since it's inception and I have decided it is time to chime in... My background, a proud owner of a Panny AE300 for 2+ years... I know what peek-a-boo screendoor is... I have seen vertical banding, dustblobs...I have seen a nice DLP in action LT240K (Thanks Kyser) and I have seen a Z2.

I have read the reviews on the 700 and I am shocked at what some people are saying about it. I think we have to remember here...We are talking about a projector that in most cases will retail for less than 2k. For the 3 years that I have been on this forum daily I have been bombarded with talk of contrast ratio, screendoor, dustblobs, inky blacks, vertical banding, rainbows etc.

Now we are given the 700...And we are promised (and delivered) no screendoor, minimal vertical banding and unheard of contrast ratio in the lcd camp (more on that later) all of the gripes that I have been reading about for the last 3 years. And I sit here amazed that it is still being picked apart...people are canceling pre-orders....OMG, what I wouldn't give for a 1280x720 panel, virtually no VB, 1:1 mapping, 2000:1 contrast, lens shift, long throw...the list goes on.

I hear the talk of...'Well 2000:1 can only be achieved with a filter and sacrifices a blue push'...or something like that...How many people on the <$3500 forum actually shell out the money to have their projector professionally calibrated? Man I would be some happy with a contrast ratio like that even if it sacrificed a little bit of color balance.

I just needed to get this off my chest...What a great opportunity to purchase a fabulous projector. I think we have to remember which side of the tracks we are on here...For less than $2K, We are getting something that could only be dreamed of a year or two ago. Is it perfect? Probably not...Is it perfect for $2K ? I would think so.

I will be highly recommending this machine to my best friend who is in the process of constructing his H/T and I look forward to a head to head AE300 vs AE700 Deathmatch....

PM me for an excellent Ae300 deal.....

rlindo

10-07-04, 11:46 PM

another useless projectorcentral review. Soon it will truly just be the spec sheet posted and nothing more. Sheesh. What a waste that site has become for reviews.

funkapus,

the higher resolution actually does come into play with DVD viewing, especially if you get an upconverting dvd player that outputs in either 720p or 1080i. The difference with the higher resolution pj is the image just has more smoothness to it and also small detail is easier to see. With an upconverting player this difference is increased even more and some top quality dvd transfers come so close to high def in many areas.

darinp2

10-07-04, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by scotty144
I hear the talk of...'Well 2000:1 can only be achieved with a filter and sacrifices a blue push'...or something like that...How many people on the <$3500 forum actually shell out the money to have their projector professionally calibrated? Man I would be some happy with a contrast ratio like that even if it sacrificed a little bit of color balance.
You may have misunderstood or maybe I am just not understanding your position. The filter should give color balance, while not using a filter will possibly have the blue push. Are you saying that you will just max the colors out with no filter to get the 2000:1 and just leave the colors unbalanced? If you plan to get 2000:1 with balanced colors then it is going to take a filter and some intelligent calibration (whether professional or otherwise) according to the report. Getting 950:1 with no filter and 2000:1 with implies that the colors would be pretty unbalanced at 2000:1 with no filter.

--Darin

norpus

10-07-04, 11:59 PM

Here here to Scotty144, good call buddy

glennzippy

10-08-04, 12:07 AM

I tend to agree with Scotty144...

Additionally, while I understand waiting for the next greatest evolution of technology, I think I prefer to actually be able to use something rather than waiting to see what is coming around the corner.

It's a touch more understandable if one is looking to replace an existing projector but canceling a pre order or waiting another 6+ months (I tend to think 12 months and another $750 to $1000) is a little silly in my opinion. Just like with a computer, you buy the best you can afford when your're ready to buy and then stop looking around for what's next because you will surely be disapointed!

My pre-order will stand. Yes, it's my first projector, and it may not be the magical holy grail of a 1080x1920 panel, but it beats the heck out of what I have right now (27 incher in a bad room!), so I'm going to go on looking forward to what my basement will be after everything has arrived!

Just an aside: Framing is 1/3 done, and I expect to complete that in two weeks! That should be just in time for me to start opening up boxes and seeing what I have in store for the future!!!

tbacos

10-08-04, 12:10 AM

No kidding. Great post Scotty.

Now...here's to hoping that they've solved/minimized the dust blob problem that is my biggest complaint with my L300U... :)

crodrigues

10-08-04, 12:17 AM

Agreed! As one of the pioneers that bought the good and old AE100 years ago, importing from Japan when no one had this projector, I do not regret at all. It still amazes me after more than 2000 hours. Now with the AE700 with all the bells and whistles for this price, thanks God I was able to control my upgraditis when the AE300/500 came out! AE700 is coming home soon. :D
And for everyone around here looking for their first projector, go ahead and BUY this. I can guarantee you will be impressed and amazed, exactly as I was almost 3 years ago. Even today, people come to my place and are simply blown away when they watch a DVD or HD on the big screen.
If we had 720p, 2000:1 CR and virtually no screendoor 3 years ago, for this price I would buy it without even asking a question here. :D

Originally posted by scotty144
REALITY CHECK TIME!!!!!!!!!

I have been following this thread since it's inception and I have decided it is time to chime in... My background, a proud owner of a Panny AE300 for 2+ years... I know what peek-a-boo screendoor is... I have seen vertical banding, dustblobs...I have seen a nice DLP in action LT240K (Thanks Kyser) and I have seen a Z2.

I have read the reviews on the 700 and I am shocked at what some people are saying about it. I think we have to remember here...We are talking about a projector that in most cases will retail for less than 2k. For the 3 years that I have been on this forum daily I have been bombarded with talk of contrast ratio, screendoor, dustblobs, inky blacks, vertical banding, rainbows etc.

Now we are given the 700...And we are promised (and delivered) no screendoor, minimal vertical banding and unheard of contrast ratio in the lcd camp (more on that later) all of the gripes that I have been reading about for the last 3 years. And I sit here amazed that it is still being picked apart...people are canceling pre-orders....OMG, what I wouldn't give for a 1280x720 panel, virtually no VB, 1:1 mapping, 2000:1 contrast, lens shift, long throw...the list goes on.

I hear the talk of...'Well 2000:1 can only be achieved with a filter and sacrifices a blue push'...or something like that...How many people on the <$3500 forum actually shell out the money to have their projector professionally calibrated? Man I would be some happy with a contrast ratio like that even if it sacrificed a little bit of color balance.

I just needed to get this off my chest...What a great opportunity to purchase a fabulous projector. I think we have to remember which side of the tracks we are on here...For less than $2K, We are getting something that could only be dreamed of a year or two ago. Is it perfect? Probably not...Is it perfect for $2K ? I would think so.

I will be highly recommending this machine to my best friend who is in the process of constructing his H/T and I look forward to a head to head AE300 vs AE700 Deathmatch....

PM me for an excellent Ae300 deal.....

funkapus

10-08-04, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by tbacos
"Argh...torn...tired of overthinking this purchase..."

Then you're browsing the wrong website, funkapus. Overthinking is 90% of what goes on around here... :)

Overthinking and pontificating about black levels/rainbows/fill factor/VB/etc is fine and even interesting; I'm just getting tired of having my mind all made up and then getting thrown by some off-hand remark that somebody makes in their review and that I then proceed to overanalyze until I think down is up. Meanwhile, my Star Wars DVDs remain in their shrink-wrap, as I am unwilling to deflower them with my 32" CRT.

Originally posted by rlindo
the higher resolution actually does come into play with DVD viewing, especially if you get an upconverting dvd player that outputs in either 720p or 1080i. The difference with the higher resolution pj is the image just has more smoothness to it and also small detail is easier to see. With an upconverting player this difference is increased even more and some top quality dvd transfers come so close to high def in many areas.

Thanks, rlindo, this is very useful.

I guess I could clarify my earlier questions by asking a) whether a cheaper projector that could do a 1:1 pixel mapping with DVD source would work just as well for my needs and b) whether a 720p native projector might actually look worse using DVD source due to scaling.

Originally posted by scotty144
I think we have to remember which side of the tracks we are on here...For less than $2K, We are getting something that could only be dreamed of a year or two ago.

Absolutely. From everything I've read (specs and reviews) about the 700, it sounds like a great projector for the price, and a distinct improvement over the previous generation.

I hope I don't sound like I'm whining about having to pay peanuts for a great 720p projector. It's just that I hadn't really considered before that a 480p might be better suited for the stuff I watch; a 720p might be wasted on me until HD-DVD shows up, because I generally just watch movies, not TV, and the chance of me coughing up for HD cable is approximately zero. I'm just interested in making sure I don't get more projector than I'm likely to need in the next 2-3 years. If I have some good reason to get the newest-latest, then I'll happily do so, but otherwise I probably should get the old-and-works-ok.

Ultimately I suppose I need to find someplace where I can audition some of these and see for myself, but I was curious to know what folks thought.

uwradu

10-08-04, 12:31 AM

I personally think the AE700 is more in line with a lot of people's environment than many other projectors. Not everybody has the space for a 20 ft throw or seating distance to accommodate the lower resolution DLPs and still avoid SD with a large picture. People with smaller rooms can look at HD projectors (particularly the AE700) as a ticket to a large picture while still avoiding SD; the higher resolution could be viewed as just a bonus. Regarding the quality of DVDs, I look at it this way: is the DVD quality of a 4805 so much better than a good LCD such as the AE700 that you're willing to forsake all its other benefits? Or, put another way, does the DVD quality of the AE700 suck so much in comparison to say the 4805 that all its other advantages couldn't make you tolerate it? Incidentally, to many HD may not be all that important right now (myself included), but HD DVD is just around the corner, for many prospective AE700 buyers well within their ownership period. It seems that the age of the SVGA projector is slowly waning for new buyers.

cpc

10-08-04, 12:44 AM

I saw a 4805 yesterday. Saw some rainbows but didn't get headaches that I can recall. It did look nice and had dark blacks and good contrast. Interesting. I'm hoping the AE700 turns out to be a good projector. It should be decent. ANSI contrast is still a concern of mine. Do you need to run high lamp to use the AI function and if you don't use the AI function, how does it look?

scotty144

10-08-04, 03:40 AM

DarinP, I am sure once the masses start getting their hands on this projector we will start seeing all the 'tricks and tweaks' threads on this unit. I am pretty sure the filter combination will be figured out, maybe even Cine4 will let us know which one they used and/or possibly even start selling them. My whole point is we finally have access to a reasonably priced lcd projecotr that can now do 2000:1. Would it be nice if it could right out of the box...of course. But I know if someone came out with a filter that promised 2000:1 for my AE300 I would be all over it. Incidentally, it was your sparkling review of the 300 that prompted me to buy mine sight unseen from Japan....I salute you.

Kroot

10-08-04, 04:00 AM

scotty144,
To get right color filter you need first determine exacly percentage of colors that needs to be corrected on concrete unit (atleast on all previous LCD Epson D4 projectors it was a case - they differed between them) and to do that you need calibration package (software + hardware) =(

Kroot

10-08-04, 04:46 AM

I just read projectorcentral "review" - i' sooo agreee with rlindo.
How can you make review of one of most expected products and make 0 real measurements (sounds noice, real CR ratio, light output and etc)???
All he did was copy paste text job from panasonic .pdfs and add some useless text as "noise".
Many people on AVS Forums and AV Forums wrote much more usefull reviews, than this "used to be professional" site :(

Edit: spelling

dazbug

10-08-04, 05:37 AM

SO?????? IS it better to have 700 closer or further from screen. Any 700 owners care to experiment?? and let us know if it effects pic qualitiy in anyway?

bapenguin

10-08-04, 07:38 AM

Just heard my projector is shipping tuesday. This will be my first projector I own (though I've seen others like the Z2 as a buddy has it). Now I just need to finish the dang theater. THanks for everyone's help here!

madpoet

10-08-04, 07:38 AM

I've noticed a regrettable trend in the recent PJC reviews. Less substance, more style. I would wait for some more hard tech reviews myself if you really need te gritty details.

Ericbres

10-08-04, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Kroot
I just read projectorcentral "review" - i' sooo agreee with rlindo.
How can you make review of one of most expected products and make 0 real measurements (sounds noice, real CR ratio, light output and etc)???
All he did was copy paste text job from panasonic .pdfs and add some useless text as "noise".
Many people on AVS Forums and AV Forums wrote much more usefull reviews, than this "used to be professional" site :(

Edit: spelling

We all need to remember ... there is a FINE line that they need to walk in regards to the reviews.
Too much fluff ... they lose credibility with the masses.
Too much hard facts ... they lose the ability to receive units from the "first runs" (ie. why they have a 700 right now and the rest don't).
Take what you can from the review. At least it's a review ...

They are trying to keep the manufacturers AND the end users happy. That can't be easy.

scotty144

10-08-04, 08:30 AM

Kroot

10-08-04, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Ericbres
We all need to remember ... there is a FINE line that they need to walk in regards to the reviews.
Too much fluff ... they lose credibility with the masses.
Too much hard facts ... they lose the ability to receive units from the "first runs" (ie. why they have a 700 right now and the rest don't).
Take what you can from the review. At least it's a review ...

They are trying to keep the manufacturers AND the end users happy. That can't be easy.

We must have different view on word "review" then.
For me "review" is testing product and giving all details without any biases and providing concrete details.

Take a look at Ekkehart review - he made it even before projectorcentral and you will see contrete details and facts.
Now look at projectorcentral "review" and you will notice that they didnt even TRIED to make actual tests of this projector, since they wrote it gives 2000:1 CR.
But if they got that CR then they will knew that you can do that only in "Video" mode and you will have huge color inbalance by default.
So to me it just looks like they got specs from Panasonic site and put them into review without checking.

tvted

10-08-04, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by scotty144
Kroot, I agree. No two projectors are going to be exactly the same. But follow my strange logic here....The Cine4 boys calibrated their unit to 950:1 before using the adjustable iris. When they enabled the iris this is where the contrast doubled but they got the blue push.

Scotty,
This is not true, I'm afraid. I asked that question for clarification and it was answered Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4464596#post4464596).

Since the adjustable iris in theory should be identical in all units as it is software driven, I would tend to assume that there could be one filter that should produce very close to the same results for all units....Just my thought for the day.

Again not precisely true - dynamic iris is a software/hardware combination. As well, each projector would have enough differences in optics and electronics that to calibrate precisely might require subtle differences in filters, however, a common filter like a cc20 might fill the bill for all units. You might not achieve maximum contrast due to the small differences mentioned, but it would be close enough for all intents.

As far as how this was achieved cine4home selected a mode that provided maximum gains from the individual colours and then rebalanced to 6500K from there. If you haven't read his site, it would all be clarified by doing so.
Darin commented on that here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4469354#post4469354) earler in the thread.

ted

HeadRusch

10-08-04, 08:57 AM

But thats the point, Scotty.......we're all eagerly awaiting reviews, and when ProjectorCentral put theirs up we all flocked to it. Only to discover it was one WEIRD review.

I think alot of folks are waiting for people to get them in-hand and do real-world comparisons, post a few screenshots (regardless of what they are worth, everyone loves screenshots), do the contrast-level comparisons......and a schlub like me wants to see an LCD projector do black as black with lots of shadow detail. Can this projector pull it off? Who knows...

Projector Central didn't tell us...they gave us some weird rambling quasi-sales-pitch kind of review. So we wait.....

I'm not picking apart its features like the 2.0x zoom or the front exhaust....boy was Panny thinking, kudos to them....but I am waiting to hear if this dynamic iris really works....(and wonder how long it'll take before it overheats or suffers from some heat-related breakdown).

uwradu

10-08-04, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by scotty144
When they enabled the iris this is where the contrast doubled but they got the blue push. Since the adjustable iris in theory should be identical in all units as it is software driven, I would tend to assume that there could be one filter that should produce very close to the same results for all units.
Actually, they got the blue push in Video mode, which seems to put the unit into "light cannon" mode for presentations and such. To achieve maximum brightness I would strongly assume that the iris is applied (closed) more conservatively. As they noted in the article, what you're basically seeing are the characteristics of the UHP lamp itself--too much blue and far too little red. So the filter essentially is correcting lamp shortcomings. I would assume that there is sufficient variability from lamp to lamp (and also from LCD panel to panel) to not make the same filter work equally well for all projectors. Maybe well enough for most users, but it won't give you the almost complete overlap of R, G and B shown in their final graph.

rlindo

10-08-04, 09:22 AM

funkapus,

sure, a lower res pj that is pixel perfect will do you just fine but IMO, the higher res pj will fire out the better dvd/xbox image. Having gone from a 480p to a 540p then to a 720p pj, I can tell you the dvd image (and xbox games) has just kept getting better the higher the resolution.

reaper

10-08-04, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Jcam9
I liked how they mentioned the "smoothscreen" technology is a tremendous breakthrough virtually eliminating all screendoor issues associated with LCD projectors but still recommend sitting 2x seating distance back??

Oh, well. Still not worried. I am sticking to my pre-order.

They explained this statement in the review:

sitting closer than 1.6x the screen width will make compression artifacts and the digital structure of the image more visible and distracting. The eye will resolve the image to a more coherent film-like whole when viewed at a distance of about 1.6 times the screen width."

The explanation/recommendation relates more to the source cleanliness than the screendoor.

Smegger

10-08-04, 10:03 AM

Scotty144, regarding your earlier post, which I heartily agree with -

I, for one, enjoy the nitpicking and repartee in this forum.

I don't own a projector yet, but I will (oh yes...I will!). My theater(cinema?) will be, in about three months, ready for my 700. Or TX100. Or Z3. Or possibly a (insert unreleased pj here).

Until then I will continue to be enthralled by the trinkets that are thrown me, those lovely little gems of information.

I do understand what you are saying, I agree totally. However, for me, all the nitpicking keeps me looking at my options and comparing the different qualities of my choices. If it wasn't for this forum I would have already bought a projector.

Instead I'm prepared to spent more than I had planned AND I am absolutely certain that when I invite my friends around for the first time that they will be suitably blown away ;-)

I also understand my pj will not be perfect and that's ok.

Thank you all.

Kysersose

10-08-04, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by scotty144
REALITY CHECK TIME!!!!!!!!!

I have been following this thread since it's inception and I have decided it is time to chime in... My background, a proud owner of a Panny AE300 for 2+ years... I know what peek-a-boo screendoor is... I have seen vertical banding, dustblobs...I have seen a nice DLP in action LT240K (Thanks Kyser) and I have seen a Z2.

I have read the reviews on the 700 and I am shocked at what some people are saying about it. I think we have to remember here...We are talking about a projector that in most cases will retail for less than 2k. For the 3 years that I have been on this forum daily I have been bombarded with talk of contrast ratio, screendoor, dustblobs, inky blacks, vertical banding, rainbows etc.

Now we are given the 700...And we are promised (and delivered) no screendoor, minimal vertical banding and unheard of contrast ratio in the lcd camp (more on that later) all of the gripes that I have been reading about for the last 3 years. And I sit here amazed that it is still being picked apart...people are canceling pre-orders....OMG, what I wouldn't give for a 1280x720 panel, virtually no VB, 1:1 mapping, 2000:1 contrast, lens shift, long throw...the list goes on.

I hear the talk of...'Well 2000:1 can only be achieved with a filter and sacrifices a blue push'...or something like that...How many people on the <$3500 forum actually shell out the money to have their projector professionally calibrated? Man I would be some happy with a contrast ratio like that even if it sacrificed a little bit of color balance.

I just needed to get this off my chest...What a great opportunity to purchase a fabulous projector. I think we have to remember which side of the tracks we are on here...For less than $2K, We are getting something that could only be dreamed of a year or two ago. Is it perfect? Probably not...Is it perfect for $2K ? I would think so.

I will be highly recommending this machine to my best friend who is in the process of constructing his H/T and I look forward to a head to head AE300 vs AE700 Deathmatch....

Great post Scott! I can't wait to see the AE700 myself to see if it can deliver, I can't stand any VB. Hopefully they have fixed this.
I'm still happy with my 240K though... ;)

Cine4Home

10-08-04, 10:28 AM

Ekkehart... when do you get the HS51?

As soon as it is avaiable in Germany (probably late October)

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Ericbres

10-08-04, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by uwradu
First he goes on about how extremely quiet this unit is, then he muddles it up by mentioning louder fan modes if you're altitudinally challenged.

Actually, you bring up a good point here ... this is something we all need to get used to. Several projector manufacturers are trying to address little spoken about problems with FP and high altitude instillations.
The solution du jour is a variable fan triggered by an altitude sensor. Ultimately, your fan will run faster (thus louder) when the projector is under the pressures of higher altitude.

Originally posted by Kroot
We must have different view on word "review" then.
For me "review" is testing product and giving all details without any biases and providing concrete details.

Take a look at Ekkehart review - he made it even before projectorcentral and you will see contrete details and facts.
Now look at projectorcentral "review" and you will notice that they didnt even TRIED to make actual tests of this projector, since they wrote it gives 2000:1 CR.
But if they got that CR then they will knew that you can do that only in "Video" mode and you will have huge color inbalance by default.
So to me it just looks like they got specs from Panasonic site and put them into review without checking.

No, you and I both understand the same definition of "review". I was just merely trying to throw a little bit of the "other side of the coin" without actually defending the review ... which I will not do.
I'll use an example ... I actually send out projectors for review occasionally.
Just 2 weeks ago I had an Infocus SP4805 that I could send out. I had 3 choices of whom to send it to ...
One of these choices drives a considerable amount of business for one of the companies I work with because they tend to write more about the positives of the projector and leave out alot of the negatives (without actually misleading the consumer/reader). The other 2 flat out lay the "goods, bads and uglies" right out there in front of you ... thus scaring away some customers. Now ... if I am going to send my 1 projector to someone on MY DOLLAR ... who am I going to send it to?
See what I mean?

uwradu

10-08-04, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Ericbres
The solution du jour is a variable fan triggered by an altitude sensor.
Actually, it's most likely a temperature sensor, because all you really care about is how cool things are. The projector doesn't care if it's heating up because of thinner air at high altitude, or because it's a hot summer day.

Fabbas

10-08-04, 11:18 AM

I wonder why Projector Central doesn't post any comments about contrast except that at 2000:1, it's acceptable. What I would really like to know is how dark has the black level gotten. Is it comparable to DLP, etc.

Ericbres

10-08-04, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by uwradu
Actually, it's most likely a temperature sensor, because all you really care about is how cool things are. The projector doesn't care if it's heating up because of thinner air at high altitude, or because it's a hot summer day.

Careful if you are posting about something you are assuming is taking place ... especially when you are contradicting (via speculation) what someone else has posted.
I can rattle off 3 new projectors to hit the market this month with an ALTITUDE/PRESSURE sensor built right in. This has been a common problem for quite a few years. You can ask anyone who works in the technical side of the industry.
For the MOST evidence ... see the new Optoma releases.
Or ask any manufturer to release to you defective returns lists from varying states ... they have clearly defined stats for certain projector failures attributed to nothing else other than altitude.
Sanyo is another one ... they have seen higher failure rates with their lamps in states with higher altitudes (Utah, Colorado, etc) and have documented such.

-EDIT-
I am not going to go and do your research for you ... but here is just one example: open the PDF specification sheet and read the top ....

http://www.optomausa.com/public/ezpro_759.asp

GKMad

10-08-04, 11:41 AM

I got the call yesterday - my 700 was shipping. Monday is a holiday, if only UPS ground would drive over the weekend.

I bought an air filter for the basement theater room last week. It's since been running where the 700 will sit. I'm reading this thread a couple times a day. I sometimes go to where the projector will soon be and just imagine what it will be like. I can't say how many times I've taken the tape measure to the wall.

uwradu

10-08-04, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Ericbres
Careful if you are posting about something you are assuming is taking place ... especially when you are contradicting (via speculation) what someone else has posted.
I did say "most likely". And you're right, it appears that some projectors do include altitude sensors. As a technical person myself I question their usefulness, since the root cause of lamp failure is overheating, and that can be measured accurately and reliably enough with a temperature sensor, which is also cheaper. But I won't argue with the obvious fact that altitude sensore are being used in some units.

Ericbres

10-08-04, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by uwradu
I did say "most likely". And you're right, it appears that some projectors do include altitude sensors. As a technical person myself I question their usefulness, since the root cause of lamp failure is overheating, and that can be measured accurately and reliably enough with a temperature sensor, which is also cheaper. But I won't argue with the obvious fact that altitude sensore are being used in some units.

And I won't argue with you over it's usefulness ... :D
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't scratching my head the first time I was told about it. Which also explains my comment "solution du jour" ;)

Cine4Home

10-08-04, 12:03 PM

Kroot, I agree. No two projectors are going to be exactly the same. But follow my strange logic here....The Cine4 boys calibrated their unit to 950:1 before using the adjustable iris. When they enabled the iris this is where the contrast doubled but they got the blue push. Since the adjustable iris in theory should be identical in all units as it is software driven, I would tend to assume that there could be one filter that should produce very close to the same results for all units....Just my thought for the day.

No there is a missunderstanding here. All CR we measured were WITH Auto-Iris enabled. Without the Auto-Iris the Contrast ratio of this projector is really low (around 600:1). The Auto Iris is a must....

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

rlindo

10-08-04, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Fabbas
I wonder why Projector Central doesn't post any comments about contrast except that at 2000:1, it's acceptable. What I would really like to know is how dark has the black level gotten. Is it comparable to DLP, etc.

Exactly.

Peep the Z2 review. He is practically painting his ceiling white over the stated CR of the z2 (even though from my experience it doesn't get close to it in real world situations) going on how good it is and now you hav the ae700, the first LCD to state 2000:1 (whether it can do that or not doesn't matter for pj central's reviews) and he hardly cares, merely stating it is better than previous LCDs.

PJ Central is so useless for reviews it isn't even amusing anymore.

Cine4Home

10-08-04, 12:06 PM

I would assume that there is sufficient variability from lamp to lamp (and also from LCD panel to panel) to not make the same filter work equally well for all projectors. Maybe well enough for most users, but it won't give you the almost complete overlap of R, G and B shown in their final graph.

That is exactly the problem. The deviation between the projectors is usually quite high. Now we are going to test like 5 or 6 more PT AE700 and then we will know if they can use all the same filter-type or not :)

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

VornHune

10-08-04, 12:13 PM

6 years sitting on the fence, checking the forum 5 days a week, going to projector central during every lunch break. I have finally placed my order for the 700. Thanks to all of you who have provided valuable and not so valuable (yet entertaining) information. I'm gonna go throw up now.

Thanks again,
Nate

P.s. Sure am glad though I didn't try to shell out 10k on a 1000:1 DLP......

stephenfrancis

10-08-04, 12:20 PM

I must agree with others in this thread. In my opinion, these are the 3 biggest downfalls to LCD projectors, in order:

1) contrast ratio
2) vertical banding
3) SDE

I can not believe that projector central made no attempt at discussing contrast ratio, black levels, shadow details at all in this review. It is the most important factor in my opinion. What's going on over there?

BTW, I used to like my Z2, till I saw my buddies 8700+. I'm done with LCD!

Steve

leedees

10-08-04, 12:22 PM

According to projector central there's a pretty odd characteristic of the lens shift.

If you use all 50% of the vertical shift you are limited to 8% of the horizontal shift.

How will we calculate the amount of horizontal shift using say 38% of the vertical shift? Is the ratio linear?

I now can't determine if the AE700 is a possiblity in my setup.

stephenfrancis

10-08-04, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by leedees
According to projector central there's a pretty odd characteristic of the lens shift.

If you use all 50% of the vertical shift you are limited to 8% of the horizontal shift.

How will we calculate the amount of horizontal shift using say 38% of the vertical shift? Is the ratio linear?

I now can't determine if the AE700 is a possiblity in my setup.

Since the lens shift action is linear, it smells like it is simply a linear ratio between the following:

i.e.
------/\ <--- max verical lens shift (63%) ,no horizontal lens shift
-----/--\
----/----\
---/------\
--/--------\
-/----------\
/------------\
-------------- <--- no vertical lens shift, maximum horizontal lens shift (25%)
\------------/
-\----------/
--\--------/
---\------/
----\----/
-----\--/
------\/
I can't imagine why there would be any curve in the lens shift diagram.

I guess the point is that if you need to shift the image up or down, you best be able to put the projector towards the center of the image with this projector.

Steve

cpc

10-08-04, 12:59 PM

My downfalls for LCD projectors is similar, but I find that the higher resolution projectors produce no SDE for me. A simple defocus eliminates it even on my L200. In fact, I almost think smooth screen is un-necessary, or in the very least, it should be tweakable. Sometimes it looks soft. Maybe the AE300 I saw wasn't great or the combo of smoothscreen and 480 to 540 scaling is what made it look soft vs my L200.

Drawbacks for LCD projectors, in my eyes, are:

1) Black levels and contrast
2) Vertical Banding (this is highly variable and usually absent on the L200. But when its there, its a nightmare)
3) Colour uniformity
4) Peak-a-boo's

My list prioritizes the things that I dislike when I view DVD's on my L200.

I want higher contrast and lower black levels, and I want the contrast ratio to be ANSI and the black levels to be noticabley lower. In comparison, I'm using an L200. What good is an auto iris for scenes where there are very bright parts of the picture and also deep dark blacks? Your blacks will still look grey unless your ANSI contrast ratio is high and your achievable black levels are low.

I may still go for the AE700 as an upgrade from my L200. I imagine the black levels and contrast on the AE700 will be a noticable improvement? The AE300 didn't look that much better than my L200, so I assume the Panny 500 and likewise the new AE700 won't be that much better, but perhaps that thinking is wrong?

Canadians getting this projector for yourselfs. I'm armed with beer and popcorn if you will entertain me for a demo as a gracious host :)

CalypsoCowboy

10-08-04, 01:44 PM

I'm leaning toward the 700 as a replacement for my 75U which has like no contrast ratio. And cheaper that what I bought 75U for, ugh.

Personally, I'd love a DLP for the contrast but I'm sensitive to the rainbow effect and my head hurts after a while so I'm perfectly happy with LCD, until the price of the 3chip dlps comes down.

mbht

10-08-04, 02:01 PM

Sorry if I missed a previous reply to this question, but has anyone had a chance to compare the ceiling mount screw holes to those of the 500? Am waiting for my pre-ordered 700 and would love to have ceiling mount ready when it arrives.

Thanks

pkiehne

10-08-04, 02:22 PM

Several pages ago, someone posted a response from Chief mounts that basically said they don't have one yet, and to the best of my memory, no one has posted if the 500 mount will work for the 700. I guess we'll all find out when it arrives in more consumer's hands...

tvted

10-08-04, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by cpc
What good is an auto iris for scenes where there are very bright parts of the picture and also deep dark blacks? Your blacks will still look grey unless your ANSI contrast ratio is high and your achievable black levels are low.

Not if you lower light output and change the gamma.
People seem to be overlooking the importance of dynamic gamma as part of this innovation.

ted

1Time

10-08-04, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Fabbas
I wonder why Projector Central doesn't post any comments about contrast except that at 2000:1, it's acceptable. What I would really like to know is how dark has the black level gotten. Is it comparable to DLP, etc.

I read Projector Central's choice to not compare black levels of the 700 to DLP to mean it does not compare favorably. Had this not been the case, it seems they would have made some comparison. Of course it's so much the better for those buying the 700 if this proves to be wrong.

I'm actually in the market for a 500 or Z2 but I thought I'd add my $0.02. Sight unseen I can't imagine not being very pleased to own a 700, however it's out of my price range.

noah katz

10-08-04, 03:00 PM

The lens shift behavior could be because rather than independent H and V motions, it pivots about a circle.

darinp2

10-08-04, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by noah katz
The lens shift behavior could be because rather than independent H and V motions, it pivots about a circle.
This is what it looked like to me when I saw the projector, although I don't know if it was a circle or it if was oblong in some way.

--Darin

stain

10-08-04, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by scotty144
REALITY CHECK TIME!!!!!!!!!

Now we are given the 700...And we are promised (and delivered) no screendoor, minimal vertical banding and unheard of contrast ratio in the lcd camp (more on that later) all of the gripes that I have been reading about for the last 3 years.

And it is NOT... Sony after all!!!
Really great opportunity to buy now and ride for a few years till 1080 gets affordable.

DB2

10-08-04, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by pkiehne
Several pages ago, someone posted a response from Chief mounts that basically said they don't have one yet, and to the best of my memory, no one has posted if the 500 mount will work for the 700. I guess we'll all find out when it arrives in more consumer's hands...

Yes, the mount for the 300 and the 500 will work for the 700. At least according to the email I received back from Panasonic this morning.

nilsp

10-08-04, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by VornHune
6 years sitting on the fence, checking the forum 5 days a week, going to projector central during every lunch break. I have finally placed my order for the 700. Thanks to all of you who have provided valuable and not so valuable (yet entertaining) information. I'm gonna go throw up now.

Nate. Will you be able to kick the habit? Or will you end up like a lot of us, spend way more time on this forum than actually watching movies...? ;-)

lordsiris

10-08-04, 05:09 PM

I think it was asked before and I don't recall seeing an answer so I will ask again. Has anyone had a chance to hook this up via DVI(HDMI) to a HTPC and be sure that 1:1 pixel mapping is possible at 1280x720?

Please let me know, this is one of the last concerns I have before buying this PJ.

Thanks,

lordsiris

madpoet

10-08-04, 05:56 PM

I can't imagine it won't be... the 500 certainly is.

CalypsoCowboy

10-08-04, 06:15 PM

Anyone compared this to the SP5000, I know the contrast is quoted lower but contrast is a tricky thing.

BobP

10-08-04, 06:17 PM

Just got a call on my preorder from one of avscience's sponsoring vendors (am I allowed to say who?)....they are dropping the price down by $200.....cool!

The PJ is not in yet, but they are hoping soon (end of Oct by the latest).

Can't wait...screen on order from avscience, projector...cheaper and soon to be here...actually giving me time to get the room carpeted (next week), painted and wired for sound.

Godfathe in shrink wrap waiting.... Star Wars and Indiana Jones will be purchased this weekend.

Bob

cpc

10-08-04, 07:40 PM

Actually, the dynamic gamma does give hope for contrast. That part I forgot to mention. Still, it have to change from one frame to the next, so I guess as long as it works and the effect improves contrast AND black levels, then perhaps it'll be cool. I just wonder how the Yamaha and Epson get such good ANSI contrast while the others cannot. Maybe its their colour filters?

Any Canuck's going for it yet?

Sonyuser

10-08-04, 09:00 PM

I'm sure that many of you have read Projector Central's review on the 700. I'm a little surprised that apparently no one has commented on their observation that the scaling for DVDs wasn't up to par. I have a 700 on order (with the now $200 discount mentioned in the post above), and if the scaling doesn't match my Sony 10HT (which does a wonderful job in scaling), that's a real killer for me.

I'm deinterlacing all sources (2 DVD, 2 S-VHS, 1 LD, 1 Mini-DV) with a DVDO, fed over component cable, and the combination of the Sony and the DVDO is flawless. I wouldn't give up all of my other sources just to feed the 700 with a new DVD player with 720 output for perfect mapping.

Of course there has also been some recent put-down of Projector Central's review procedure and reporting, including their absent reporting of which input and which machine they were using for DVD.

I have seen no other report about the poor scaling for DVD 480 input.

Does anyone out there actually have a 700 in hand who can also report their observations on scaling? I won't have an opportunity to see a 700 for several more days with a demo of AVIA, etc..

cpc

10-08-04, 10:14 PM

...and like me, you don't want to be forced to upgrade your dvdo to an HD or HD+ in order to have good scaling. I agree.

Joe Schwartz

10-08-04, 10:43 PM

The lens shift range is illustrated as a diamond on page 19 of the user manual:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_PT-AE700U.pdf

It also lists the following estimates for vertical/horizontal shift pairs, with all shifts measured from the screen center:

~63% vertical with ~0% horizontal
~50% vertical with ~8% horizontal
~30% vertical with ~17% horizontal
~10% vertical with ~23% horizontal
~0% vertical with ~25% horiztonal

Expletive

10-08-04, 10:56 PM

bigrushhead

10-08-04, 10:59 PM

If the 700 has at least as good of a picture as the 300u on DVD`s and a noticeable improvement on HDTV, then thats still enough to get me to bite...For a brand new unit w/warranty and good bulb life, the price/performance is what i would consider to be exceptional...Since day one i have never been quite satisfied with my 300u..It does very well for DVD`s, but my beef all along is HDTV quality..I watched the Bills/Patriots game in HD on my 120" screen for the first time last Sunday ( was using 80" old rental Dalite i bought used before that) and jaggies were very noticeable...I for one can`t wait till i can afford the 700, but since i am remodeling my whole house,(Home Theater included) i will need to wait a few months:( ...After reading Projector central`s review last night, i am a little concerned as to how well it will perform with DVD and different DVD players..So i guess i will be eagerly reading reviews for the next few months.

Stew4msu

10-08-04, 11:44 PM

This has maybe been addressed somewhere amongst the 861 posts, but I don't remember reading it:

One of the forum sponsors, is listing the L700U, instead of the AE700. When looking at the specs, it states that the L700U has DVI and not HDMI. I thought the AE700 had HDMI and not DVI.

Are these the same projector?

Stew

Najeeb

10-09-04, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by cpc

Any Canuck's going for it yet?

If everything goes okay I'll be ordering my unit on Tuesday. The expectation is that it will be available in the third week of October - or worst case by the first week of November.

I'll be happy to demo it to anyone in the Greater Toronto Area once I actually pick it up. I have a light controlled room in Scarborough (401/Port Union) that should work nicely.

jasallen

10-09-04, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Stew4msu
listing the L700U, instead of the AE700.

.....

Are these the same projector?

Weird, Out of curiosity I went out and found the retailer to whom you referred (I think I got the right one). They seem to have just made up the name L700U based on the dual branding of the previous models. Even the PDF they supply is for the "AE700U".

FYI: The 700 has HDMI and not DVI (though of course you can use DVI through it)

Just make sure it wasn't this old workhorse which has neither input, but is rightful owner of the name: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-L701U.htm

SingleA

10-09-04, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by DB2
Yes, the mount for the 300 and the 500 will work for the 700. At least according to the email I received back from Panasonic this morning.

That's odd. I talked to a rep from Projector People who said that their 500 mount was not compatible. He recommended that I order one of their generic mounts.

VA has a mount that is specific for the 700.

Stew4msu

10-09-04, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by jasallen
Weird, Out of curiosity I went out and found the retailer to whom you referred (I think I got the right one). They seem to have just made up the name L700U based on the dual branding of the previous models. Even the PDF they supply is for the "AE700U".

FYI: The 700 has HDMI and not DVI (though of course you can use DVI through it)

Just make sure it wasn't this old workhorse which has neither input, but is rightful owner of the name: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-L701U.htm

Actually the pdf (I just noticed when trying to find a projectorsolution), is for the PT-AE700E . What's the E? Is this a European version?

Stew

SingleA

10-09-04, 02:40 AM

Yes, the trailing E does signify that it is for Europe.

BenVel

10-09-04, 02:49 AM

Just a quick comment.
Why not wait and see what the PJ is capable of and enjoy your equipment. Has to be better than analyzing it to death.
Looking forward for a real review. For me it's either the AE700 or the Benq 7800.

Stew4msu

10-09-04, 02:51 AM

Thanks for sharing.

Stew

Braiot

10-09-04, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Najeeb
If everything goes okay I'll be ordering my unit on Tuesday. The expectation is that it will be available in the third week of October - or worst case by the first week of November.

I'll be happy to demo it to anyone in the Greater Toronto Area once I actually pick it up. I have a light controlled room in Scarborough (401/Port Union) that should work nicely.

Najeeb, where are you buying from? I have one on pre order and I'm told it will be "sometime" in November. I live in Alberta but if it can be ordered online, that would be nice.

10-09-04, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by nilsp
Nate. Will you be able to kick the habit? Or will you end up like a lot of us, spend way more time on this forum than actually watching movies...? ;-)

You can watch movies with these things? I thought they were only good for test patterns?

:D

reaper

10-09-04, 08:46 AM

I just noticed that a retailer in Japan is listing the TH-AE700 and claiming a Japanese OSD only. Is that true?

They say that they are in stock and are also listing the Z3 to be available on October 14.

reaper

Najeeb

10-09-04, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Braiot
Najeeb, where are you buying from? I have one on pre order and I'm told it will be "sometime" in November. I live in Alberta but if it can be ordered online, that would be nice.

I'm not sure that I'm allowed to answer this question. Does AV Science ship projectors to Canada? If not, then is it permissible to mention sources in Canada?

Arjuna

10-09-04, 10:02 AM

Well, I received my AE700 today and after checking it out for about an hour I think I'll send it back.
Why? It may sound a bit weird but due to my room situation the PJ has to be placed left of my seating position. The constrains of the lens-shift required to place the it rather high (close to the vertical center) so I can get the projected image far enough to the right side. This however directs the hot air from the exhaust directly onto my arm when I'm in regular viewing position...

Apart from that I can confirm that my unit had some VB too. Not too bad for my taste - if I'd just watch a movie and not look for it I prolly wouldn't see it at all.
The AE700 also does not sync to 1280x720 at 50 Hz but I guess not sync'ing to 50 Hz vs 50 Hz with tearing (like my Z1 does) doesn't make much of a difference either.

The colours are really nice. A bit too dark in some scenes but I didn't toy around that much with the colour management and this is a totally subjective, non-videophile opinion :) Or I'm maybe just too used to the camparatively bad colours on my Z1 ...

Oh yes and connecting the AE700 caused a humm in my subwoofer while the Z1 doesn't. And this even though all components of my AV setup are plugged into the same outlet.

tvted

10-09-04, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by cpc
I just wonder how the Yamaha and Epson get such good ANSI contrast while the others cannot.
I've not seen any ANSI figures though I know they set the bar for ON/OFF when released. At a filter-calibrated 2000:1 ON/OFF the AE700 already betters those units. As far as ANSI, CRT has the lowest ANSI measurements of all HT displays yet is held as the grail of PQ. ANSI is also room-dependent so would vary.
Maybe its their colour filters?
Making the most of the light spectrum the bulb provides per cine4home is a highly effective way of optimizing ON/OFF as long as the subsequent light loss can be tolerated. Tightness of the internal optical path is another.

ted

John Ballentine

10-09-04, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Kysersose
Great post Scott! I can't wait to see the AE700 myself to see if it can deliver, I can't stand any VB. Hopefully they have fixed this.
I'm still happy with my 240K though... ;)

I've seen the 700 (3 hours of viewing) and specifically looked for VB - and yes it has it. Just a fact. It has it. Can I live with the moderate VB this projector produces - yes. I've lived with it on my 500 for almost a year. Check the Tatoonie sand dune scene on the new Star Wars - or the large ship landing on the pad in the beginning of Attack of The Clones. You'll see it. It seams like a crap shoot as to how much VB your specific projector will have. It seems to vary from projector to projector. Hate to give up my 500, which has very moderate VB - and get a 700 that has worse VB. And you won't know how bad it will be till you get it in your hands. Like I said - it's a crap shoot.
Re: Black levels - they didn't look any "blacker" than my 500. At least to my eyes. I'm sure testing it with white walls had a lot to do with it. If I upgrade to a 700, and I still may - it's mainly to get the lens shift. I hate my 500 projector hanging down on a 18" rod.

MAX_POWER_HDryer

10-09-04, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I've seen the 700 (3 hours of viewing) and specifically looked for VB - and yes it has it. Just a fact. It has it. Can I live with the moderate VB this projector produces - yes. I've lived with it on my 500 for almost a year. Check the Tatoonie sand dune scene on the new Star Wars - or the large ship landing on the pad in the beginning of Attack of The Clones. You'll see it. It seams like a crap shoot as to how much VB your specific projector will have. It seems to vary from projector to projector. Hate to give up my 500, which has very moderate VB - and get a 700 that has worse VB. And you won't know how bad it will be till you get it in your hands. Like I said - it's a crap shoot.
Re: Black levels - they didn't look any "blacker" than my 500. At least to my eyes. I'm sure testing it with white walls had a lot to do with it. If I upgrade to a 700, and I still may - it's mainly to get the lens shift. I hate my 500 projector hanging down on a 18" rod.

I think getting a nice screen would be a cheaper more effective upgrade.

TheFerret

10-09-04, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Sonyuser
I'm sure that many of you have read Projector Central's review on the 700. I'm a little surprised that apparently no one has commented on their observation that the scaling for DVDs wasn't up to par. I have a 700 on order (with the now $200 discount mentioned in the post above), and if the scaling doesn't match my Sony 10HT (which does a wonderful job in scaling), that's a real killer for me.

Why not just use a recent DVD player that can scale externally? Also, $200 discount off what, list price?

I'm deinterlacing all sources (2 DVD, 2 S-VHS, 1 LD, 1 Mini-DV) with a DVDO, fed over component cable, and the combination of the Sony and the DVDO is flawless. I wouldn't give up all of my other sources just to feed the 700 with a new DVD player with 720 output for perfect mapping.

IIRC, the 10HT doesn't offer digital transport. But, I am a little surprised that you wouldn't even consider the potential benefits of 720P from a DVD player across a digital transport, but instead would rather stick to a D-A & A-D requirement.

Of course there has also been some recent put-down of Projector Central's review procedure and reporting, including their absent reporting of which input and which machine they were using for DVD.

I have seen no other report about the poor scaling for DVD 480 input.

Does anyone out there actually have a 700 in hand who can also report their observations on scaling? I won't have an opportunity to see a 700 for several more days with a demo of AVIA, etc..
I usually do not bother with the reviews on Projector Central. I'd rather see it and let my own brain make the conclusion. Of course, we are not always granted this opportunity. Still, AVS is good for user reviews and comments from their first-hand experiences.

Oops, my apology. I thought I wasn't going to participate in this thread anymore. Working weekends can make me make mistakes. :eek:

John Alison

10-09-04, 02:18 PM

Arjuna-

Are the sync issues at 50Hz over analogue or digital? Does it sync at 75 Hz?
If it doesn't then its usefulness in Europe is severely diminished.

cpc

10-09-04, 02:39 PM

Ok, so in order to achieve the best black levels and contrast, you must calibrate the PJ using colour filters?

Nice to see more and more Canadians on here :)

darinp2

10-09-04, 02:47 PM

I posted this elsewhere, but thought some people here might be interested. This may be obvious to some people, but the unfiltered (950:1) and filtered (2000:1) cases for on/off CR are without ambient light and many may not realize that once you add ambient light the unfiltered (950:1) case can give you higher on/off CR off the screen.

For an example, I'll take a stab that the 950:1 case is 600 lumens and the 2000:1 case is 400 lumens for white. That puts the black level for the 950:1 case at 0.63 lumens and for the 2000:1 case at 0.2 lumens. If we add 1 lumen of ambient light the 950:1 becomes 368:1 and the 2000:1 becomes 334:1. How much is 1 lumen of ambient light? I'm not exactly sure, but if a person had the projector and put it in the 950:1 mode they could put up "black" from the projector, then cover the projector and add ambient light until it was a little bit brighter than this. I don't know if a single LED would do that much, but I don't think it would take much ambient light to equal 1 lumen to the screen.

Of course, every AE700 will vary somewhat and this is just an example.

--Darin

John Ballentine

10-09-04, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by MAX_POWER_HDryer
I think getting a nice screen would be a cheaper more effective upgrade.

How will that allow me to raise my projector closer to the ceiling???

MAX_POWER_HDryer

10-09-04, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by John Ballentine
How will that allow me to raise my projector closer to the ceiling???

refering to black levels

scotty144

10-09-04, 03:11 PM

You can just fold up your new screen and put it under the projector to raise it up....

Ohlson

10-09-04, 04:38 PM

darinp2
This is interesting. We could ask a few questions here. Will a source of ambient light be perfectly diffused when hitting the screen or will it be more like a big spot of light pollution? This might have an impact for choosing the 950:1 or the 2000:1 scenario.

I will take myself as an example. I have a room with a dark ceiling and a dark back wall, side walls are lighter in color but far from white, mid blue actually. The ambient light I have is leds from receiver and dvd and they are faced away from the screen onto a side wall. I could cover the leds but the information displays I will not cover since they give off much less light.

The question is do I need 400 or 600 lumens. I think the only way you can find out is by actually trying it out.

Arjuna

10-09-04, 04:39 PM

@John Alison:

I tried 1280x720 @ 50 Hz using powerstrip. My HTPC is connected via regular VGA cables ... so its analogue.
Didn't spend too much time trying different timings (am not really an expert for video timings either) but it seems to me that the AE700 doesn't take any custom resolutions other than those listed in the manual (saw a link somewhere around here). According to the table in there 720p @ 50 Hz will work fine through HDMI and component inputs but not through VGA. Wonder why.

frizzo

10-09-04, 07:36 PM

Pardon me if I missed it somewhere, but why would you want it at 50Hz when you are going the route of HTPC? I thought in order to get stutter free DVDs and files that run at 24fps that you had to have a timing of 60Hz, did I miss something? Thanks for the info!!

|..frizzo..|

NavinJohnson

10-09-04, 07:43 PM

Has anyone seen the very mediocre *user* reviews of the AE700 at Projector Central? 10 people have given it an average rating of only 3 stars so far. (http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic_Home-PT-AE700U-user-reviews.htm)

These folks are most certainly overachieving videophiles whose perspectives don't necessarily match the general FP target market for this projector, but I still find it interesting (and concerning b/c I have a 700 on-order) that no other Projector Central-"recommended" HT projector has such low user ratings. Even the 500U has 4.5 stars.

Is there a support group for those having second thoughts about their AE700 pre-order??

TheFerret

10-09-04, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by darinp2
I posted this elsewhere, but thought some people here might be interested. This may be obvious to some people, but the unfiltered (950:1) and filtered (2000:1) cases for on/off CR are without ambient light and many may not realize that once you add ambient light the unfiltered (950:1) case can give you higher on/off CR off the screen.

For an example, I'll take a stab that the 950:1 case is 600 lumens and the 2000:1 case is 400 lumens for white. That puts the black level for the 950:1 case at 0.63 lumens and for the 2000:1 case at 0.2 lumens. If we add 1 lumen of ambient light the 950:1 becomes 368:1 and the 2000:1 becomes 334:1. How much is 1 lumen of ambient light? I'm not exactly sure, but if a person had the projector and put it in the 950:1 mode they could put up "black" from the projector, then cover the projector and add ambient light until it was a little bit brighter than this. I don't know if a single LED would do that much, but I don't think it would take much ambient light to equal 1 lumen to the screen.

Of course, every AE700 will vary somewhat and this is just an example.

--Darin
Good information and good point. Didn't quickly understand your illustration in the other thread, but its clear here. My curiosity comes in when someone has no ambient lighting in terms of sunlight, room lighting, etc. and light reflected off of the screen, then the walls/ceiling, and back onto the screen may produce artificial ambient light. Is this a consideration?

I ask, because I have the darkest purple-blue Sherwinn-Williams had, and its on the walls, ceiling, doors and trim, and the screen wall is jet black as is the carpet. All equipment (but the pj) in a closet and dark brown microfiber loveseat as the only furniture in the room. But, I see light being reflected off the ceiling, the walls close to the screen wall, etc. This reflected light is 'seen' and no doubt effects my perception of what is on the screen.

Scott_R_K

10-09-04, 08:28 PM

I'm sorry , 45 pages of discussion , guesswork and now ( from real owners ) some complaints and not one single mention of a Professional Calibration :confused:

I don't understand . Even at the "new and improved" price point for an LCD Projector , I can't imagine NOT getting this PJ setup by someone with expertise and the correct Tools . AVIA and DVE are OK to get these things out of Torch mode and allow time for the lamp to burn in while awaiting the arrival of some friendly help .

As to all the discussion on what the actual CR value is , hire or borrow someone with a Sencore or Colorfacts and while they tweak and trick out your PJ within an inch of its life , they will also be able to get the measurements we are all distrusting .

As to the people seeing VB , was the flicker tweak set ? Not mentioned . Yes , I agree that we need real reviews and they will come , but in time . There are Brick and Mortar outlets that actually employ ISF techs and have their demo units calibrated for the screen and in an HT-type room and more than happy to discuss numbers and details to people who actually understand them .

BTW , in the Toronto area there are a lot of incredibly helpful AVS'ers with tools and skills and the willingness to help . Search 'em out if you're up here .

Scott..............:cool:

ianken

10-09-04, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Scott_R_K
I'm sorry , 45 pages of discussion , guesswork and now ( from real owners ) some complaints and not one single mention of a Professional Calibration :confused:

Sometimes blowing $500 for a calibration doesn't makes sense on a projector that (alledgely) looks great out of the box and only costs ~$2K.

I never got my SE20HD calibrated because unlike every CRT RPTV I've owned it wasn't all hosed from the factory. A run through with AVIA and some tweaks suggested on the net and I was happy.

I look forward to a robust review of the unit but by all accounts it's not all that bad from the get-go.

tvted

10-09-04, 09:37 PM

darinp2

The illustration you provided would be true of any PJ with those characteristics i.e. CR at a specific lumens, would it not? In which case as you've stated in other discussions much of the PQ is room dependent - especially when dealing with low lumens devices.

Or am I missing something here? I don't know which other thread you are referring to so I'll look around.

Always thought provoking.

ted

thatdreamer

10-09-04, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
Has anyone seen the very mediocre *user* reviews of the AE700 at Projector Central? 10 people have given it an average rating of only 3 stars so far.

Has anyone noticed that no fewer that THREE of these reviews use the incorrect term "vertical bending" (with an "e" instead of an an "a"). Has anyone noticed that all three of these reviews are written in the same semi-literate writing style? Basically what you have is some retarded fanboy posting nonsense about the AE700 for whatever reason.

Only one of the ten reports is written in a vaugely intelligent manner, and even that report does not really go into specifics of what the reviewer found lacking in the projector.

I wouldn't take any of these "reviews" seriously.

BobP

10-09-04, 10:33 PM

I particularly like the one that says "I haven't seen the chicken wire yet"....and the other that says "have to watch dark movies only, like vampire and monster movies to have average picture!"

Idiots? or Informed?

Common you guys who have been giving good reviews....how is you Panny PJ doing today? Have one on pre-order....don't want a lemon :)

Bob

TheFerret

10-09-04, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by ianken
Sometimes blowing $500 for a calibration doesn't makes sense on a projector that (alledgely) looks great out of the box and only costs ~$2K.

I never got my SE20HD calibrated because unlike every CRT RPTV I've owned it wasn't all hosed from the factory. A run through with AVIA and some tweaks suggested on the net and I was happy.

I look forward to a robust review of the unit but by all accounts it's not all that bad from the get-go.
When my CRT was installed I thought the picture looked good. But, after a friend did the color calibration I thought it looked better. When we applied the calibration to the other inputs the dramatic before/after was nothing short of astounding.

How about a rental of Colorfacts (http://www.milori.com/milorionlinecatalog/enter.html?target=Colorfacts.html)?

JDEATON

10-09-04, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by DB2
Yes, the mount for the 300 and the 500 will work for the 700. At least according to the email I received back from Panasonic this morning. Originally posted by SingleA
That's odd. I talked to a rep from Projector People who said that their 500 mount was not compatible. He recommended that I order one of their generic mounts.

VA has a mount that is specific for the 700.

If VA refers to Visual Apex, the mount they list for the 700 is the Chief RPA-225 which is the same mount used for the 300 and 500. I've compared the mounting hole pattern on both the 500 and 700 from the on line PDF owner's manuals and while it not conclusive the hole pattern for both looks very similar. I already have the RPA-225. I'll find out if it fits Tuesday when the 700 arrives.

Expletive

10-09-04, 11:01 PM

Price aside, does anyone think that this projector could compete with something like an optoma h77, benq 8700, or marantz S3 or am i really stretching it at that point?

IF it does not compare, what are the key areas in which those DLP units mentioned would excel over it?

John

SingleA

10-10-04, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by JDEATON

If VA refers to Visual Apex, the mount they list for the 700 is the Chief RPA-225 which is the same mount used for the 300 and 500. I've compared the mounting hole pattern on both the 500 and 700 from the on line PDF owner's manuals and while it not conclusive the hole pattern for both looks very similar. I already have the RPA-225. I'll find out if it fits Tuesday when the 700 arrives.

Yes, I was referring to Visual Apex.

I'll look forward to seeing your review Tuesday (or Wednesday, depending on how late your projector keeps you up Tuesday night ;) )

tonybradley

10-10-04, 12:44 AM

I'm hoping someone can answer this question.

The 700U supposedly has a throw from ~10ft to ~20ft for a 100 inch screen. This is very attractive to me as my room will be a little less than 19 feet in length and I would like to ceiling mount the projector in the large wiring closet behind the theater, with a nice cutout for the projector to aim through.

However, with the projector being 20ft back, will a normal seating distance of 11 ft or so from the screen not be in the way of the projector image? I ask because I just returned from a friend's house who has a 500U. It is mounted around 10ft from the screen. If I sit in a chair just a few ft in front of it, my head blocks the light. So, how can the 700U be positioned 20' from the screen, yet NOT be affected by an average seating height, or a second row that is 12" higher than that? I"m sure there is some sort of optic technology to make this work, but have no clue.

darinp2

10-10-04, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Ohlson
The ambient light I have is leds from receiver and dvd and they are faced away from the screen onto a side wall. I could cover the leds but the information displays I will not cover since they give off much less light.

What I've done is taped neutral density material over some displays and LEDs so that I can still see them, but they are much darker. I got some sheets of neutral density material in 2x, 4x, and 8x in a pack from someplace like www.adorama.com for a good price (under $20 I think) and it works pretty well for stuff like this as well as testing. The downside of using it in front of a projector is that it reduces ANSI CR quite a bit, which I haven't noticed with glass neutral density filters.
Originally posted by TheFerret
Good information and good point. Didn't quickly understand your illustration in the other thread, but its clear here. My curiosity comes in when someone has no ambient lighting in terms of sunlight, room lighting, etc. and light reflected off of the screen, then the walls/ceiling, and back onto the screen may produce artificial ambient light. Is this a consideration?
I know some others use the term differently, but I tend to think of ambient light as the constant light in the room no matter what the projector is displaying. I tend to call the rest reflected light or something like that. The reflections off the screen and to the walls and back are always a consideration, but I don't think they really apply to these different modes if we don't have external ambient. That is, they would have equal effects on the CR in either case (if we assume have external ambient light). And since we are talking about on/off here the reflections have less to do with that than ANSI CR. I'm not sure if that made sense, but put another way, having more lumens coming out of the projector will help CR in the presence of external ambient light, but won't help CR in a totally light controlled room that just has reflections.
Originally posted by tvted
The illustration you provided would be true of any PJ with those characteristics i.e. CR at a specific lumens, would it not?
Yes, it would apply to others. The basic rule here is that all else being equal, higher lumens will help retain CR in the presence of external ambient light. This applies when choosing between low lamp and high lamp as well as settings and choosing between projectors. I thought this AE700 made a good example just because it would be easy for a person to think they were increasing the CR they were seeing by using a filter when they could in fact be decreasing the CR off the screen (since that is affected by both the projector and the external ambient light).

I don't know which other thread you are referring to so I'll look around.

I don't know how much of it applies here, but it was at the end of this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4476086#post4476086) post in the Canon thread where TheFerret and I were discussing CR with the Canon. People there are also looking at ways to increase the CR from the projector. According to the specs that one has a lot of lumens to spare.

--Darin

rwestley

10-10-04, 07:31 AM

As others have stated don't believe the individual reviews for 700
on Projector Central. The unit has not even been shipped in the US so
It is obvious that someone is trying to downgrade this projector. It could
be a non authorized Panasonic dealer or just some other joker out ther.

Look at the writing style of the individual reviews. It seems like they
are writted by the same person.

John Tuohy

10-10-04, 08:34 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darinp2
[B]What I've done is taped neutral density material over some displays and LEDs so that I can still see them, but they are much darker.

I have done a similar tweak with excellent results. Blacking out the unneeded LEDs with stickers from a craft shop that match my components color. The ones which are relied upon are also covered but a pin whole is pierced to allow a very small amount of light to shine through.

A Piece of colored cardboard is placed over my DVD display when viewing a movie. Also, the area around my screen now has black ducvy cloth tape.

At 0.1% of my total system cost, these two things have made more of a difference than any cable or power enhancer I've tried.

It exemplifies how important the room is to attain the desired results.

Anyone considering spending over $2K on a FP should consider every means to reduce ambient light. There is ambient light even in a windowless room :(

Scott_R_K

10-10-04, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by TheFerret
When my CRT was installed I thought the picture looked good. But, after a friend did the color calibration I thought it looked better. When we applied the calibration to the other inputs the dramatic before/after was nothing short of astounding.

How about a rental of Colorfacts (http://www.milori.com/milorionlinecatalog/enter.html?target=Colorfacts.html)?

I couldn't agree more :D However , in all fairness this PJ and the Sony HS51 are forcing all of us to re-think the way we approach HT . "ianken" made the point of "why blow $500 on calibration on a <$2K PJ when it looks good right out of the box ?" True , but should we then "roast" these PJ's because they don't meet our expectations of a Great PJ . NO , I don't think so . Will we all blow $2K on a front screen , not likely . Will we spend $2K on external scalers and such , probably not . Will we ever know what these PJ's are really capable of , I hope so .

This area of HT is getting tougher all the time . We all want front projection at an affordable price but still want the performance of the unaffordable PJ's . This may still cost us a good Calibration , a fine screen and maybe a better scaler to realize all the benefits inherent in the design .

Scott.................... :cool:

TheFerret

10-10-04, 09:34 AM

Oh, I'm not roasting anything. I firmly believe that no two units on the same production line will have identical performance and as such have a mindset that calibration is a 'normal' thing. Also, while I am sure someone will roast me on this move, I did not intend to bare the $300 expense all by myself. As such, that cost goes down even further. :)

tvted

10-10-04, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Scott_R_K
This area of HT is getting tougher all the time . We all want front projection at an affordable price but still want the performance of the unaffordable PJ's . This may still cost us a good Calibration , a fine screen and maybe a better scaler to realize all the benefits inherent in the design .

Scott.................... :cool:

As an inveterate tweaker (I've a collection of various tools) I view some of the monies saved on DIY as money used to invest in the job at hand. Investing in tools like SMART is part of the fun for me. I know not everyone likes to play these games but I assume many who show up in the PJ forums have traces of the tweaking mentality in their hearts and as part of their hobby they should consider calibration as part of the investment. Its a small price to pay for a good education.

as a fellow north of the 49th I couldn't agree more
ted

tvted

10-10-04, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by darinp2
Yes, it would apply to others. The basic rule here is that all else being equal, higher lumens will help retain CR in the presence of external ambient light. This applies when choosing between low lamp and high lamp as well as settings and choosing between projectors. I thought this AE700 made a good example just because it would be easy for a person to think they were increasing the CR they were seeing by using a filter when they could in fact be decreasing the CR off the screen (since that is affected by both the projector and the external ambient light).

--Darin

Thanks Darin,
If anything, that was attempt to clarify for me and others that this is not specific to dynamic iris PJs because I believe this innovation has merit.

With the LED example, given the inverse square law of light, I find it difficult to believe that low level sources such as these will have that much impact, but anything is possible. Those who care have masked them as you, or moved them far away from the screen.
Perhaps I'll dig out my light meter some day.

ted

jasallen

10-10-04, 11:16 AM

I will say that the two or three LEDs in my otherwise dark bedroom drive me crazy and seem like spotlights once my eyes adjust to the dark. So I guess I can see some people being bothered by them in the home theatre -- though probably more as a peripheral distraction than a source of unwanted screen illumination.

Scott B

10-10-04, 12:10 PM

My equipment rack is built into the back of my home theater, and the lights from the equipment do light up my screen which is about 25' away. They do not, however, light up the screen enough to limit the on-off CR of my projector (Epson Cinema 500) as the black levels of the projector light up the screen to a greater extent. I suspect that I will have to address the LED light issue with my next projector.

Ohlson

10-10-04, 12:55 PM

Over this side of the Atlantic you can get the Cine4Home tweak with a filter for about less than 200$. That is my estimate based upon a price for a tweaked projector.
The filter was a platic one. Is that a concern?

ChrisWiggles

10-10-04, 01:11 PM

I find it difficult to believe that low level sources such as these will have that much impact, but anything is possible

I have two green LEDs, one on my subwoofer, and one on the back or my pj. They don't have an impact on the screen much because they are pointed away from it, but they are like giant spotlights. I covered them with blue masking tape, which still lets you see the lights through the tape, but kills the brightness a LOT. If I turn my subwoofer around and point the light at the screen, without the tape on it you can definitely see it light up the screen slightly. Mr projector is CRT, so when I calibrate it as such, the screen goes *completely* black (you can't see it at ALL). I also cover the display on my receiver with thick black construction paper, because it is a HUGE source of light. You can make shadow puppets on the screen, and that display is pointed normal to the screen. If I uncover the receiver, you can EASILY see the screen light up. Block that off, and you can't see the screen at all, it takes looking away from the screen, and letting your eyes readjust for probably 5-10 seconds before you can make out the shape of the screen on the wall.

I've never measured these effects, but they are huge.

I also recalled back at the G70 sharp 12K shootout, the lit apple display on the back of a laptop lit up the screen so significantly, we thought the digital PJ was on. You'd be surprised how little light can make a HUGE impact.

I can light up my whole screen with just the light from my watch. This would be equivalent to turning up my brightness from about 50 on my pj, to about 70. HUGE.

TheFerret

10-10-04, 01:49 PM

Everything but the speakers and remote (and projector) are in a closet. Only the projector is generating visible light--for the most part.

mikeyc

10-10-04, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Check the Tatoonie sand dune scene on the new Star Wars - or the large ship landing on the pad in the beginning of Attack of The Clones. You'll see it.

John: I've read somewhere that the Tatoonie sand dune scene has problems inherent to the original film stock and what you're seeing is not VB afterall.

Have you seen VB on MANY other movies or just the two you mention above?

mikeyc

10-10-04, 03:37 PM

OK, I wanna buy this baby. Does anyone know of any B&M stores in the Toronto area that carry it?

John Ballentine

10-10-04, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by mikeyc
John: I've read somewhere that the Tatoonie sand dune scene has problems inherent to the original film stock and what you're seeing is not VB afterall.

Have you seen VB on MANY other movies or just the two you mention above?

I read that too. Only problem is I see no VB during this scene on my 500, but saw VB on the same scene on the 700 (same DVD). Also - I have the film on laserdisc (3 versions), VHS and beta - and none of these have VB. So - basically I've only seen VB on this scene (Tatoonie) on the new DVD on the 700.

Now my 500 has VB (minor) on most underwater scenes (Das Boot, Finding Nemo, U-571) However - my 500 is pretty good on sky blue scenes. The 700 was good on underwater scenes. Wish I could mix the two projectors together!

TraderGordo

10-10-04, 09:47 PM

What's the point of VB reports on a 700 that has not had the flicker tweak applied?

Originally posted by John Ballentine
I read that too. Only problem is I see no VB during this scene on my 500, but saw VB on the same scene on the 700 (same DVD). Also - I have the film on laserdisc (3 versions), VHS and beta - and none of these have VB. So - basically I've only seen VB on this scene (Tatoonie) on the new DVD on the 700.

Now my 500 has VB (minor) on most underwater scenes (Das Boot, Finding Nemo, U-571) However - my 500 is pretty good on sky blue scenes. The 700 was good on underwater scenes. Wish I could mix the two projectors together!

shigaloo

10-10-04, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by frizzo
Pardon me if I missed it somewhere, but why would you want it at 50Hz when you are going the route of HTPC? I thought in order to get stutter free DVDs and files that run at 24fps that you had to have a timing of 60Hz, did I miss something? Thanks for the info!!

|..frizzo..|

actually if you the htpc to deinterlace and do the 3:2 pulldown, you want the display to vsync @ multiple of 24, ie 48hz or 72hz

John Ballentine

10-10-04, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by TraderGordo
What's the point of VB reports on a 700 that has not had the flicker tweak applied?

We checked the flicker tweak (just the green panel) on the 700 and it looked fine.
The flicker tweak didn't help at all with VB on my 500.
But again - I can live with a small amount of VB. I'll take VB any day over rainbows. Of the 85 movies I've watched on my 500 - only about 6 were troublesome because of VB.

tonybradley

10-10-04, 10:17 PM

Just incase my question get's lost before it's answered, here it is again: If someone could answer this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm hoping someone can answer this question.

The 700U supposedly has a throw from ~10ft to ~20ft for a 100 inch screen. This is very attractive to me as my room will be a little less than 19 feet in length and I would like to ceiling mount the projector in the large wiring closet behind the theater, with a nice cutout for the projector to aim through.

However, with the projector being 20ft back, will a normal seating distance of 11 ft or so from the screen not be in the way of the projector image? I ask because I just returned from a friend's house who has a 500U. It is mounted around 10ft from the screen. If I sit in a chair just a few ft in front of it, my head blocks the light. So, how can the 700U be positioned 20' from the screen, yet NOT be affected by an average seating height, or a second row that is 12" higher than that? I"m sure there is some sort of optic technology to make this work, but have no clue.

Vogon Poet

10-10-04, 10:37 PM

Well, it really depends on the setup I guess, but I would suppose the answer is that you put the pj high enough that it doesn't shine on the back of anybody's head and then use the lens shift if necessary.

TraderGordo

10-10-04, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Vogon Poet
Well, it really depends on the setup I guess, but I would suppose the answer is that you put the pj high enough that it doesn't shine on the back of anybody's head and then use the lens shift if necessary.

Hmmm, he REALLY wants to know how he can mount the projector behind him without the image hitting him in the head??? I think he should bounce the image off a mirror on the ceiling personally.... a difficult execution of optics indeed.

Nthusiast

10-11-04, 01:26 AM

light emits from a source in an expanding cone. If you dont want obsticles to appear as shadows - you can either remove the obsticles or move the cone. If you can't go higher, you can go with an add-on short throw lens to move closer.

Arjuna

10-11-04, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by shigaloo
actually if you the htpc to deinterlace and do the 3:2 pulldown, you want the display to vsync @ multiple of 24, ie 48hz or 72hz
Or if for some strange reason someone wishes to view PAL DVDs then that weird person will want the vertical refresh rate to be some multiple of 25 :)

pezt

10-11-04, 07:51 AM

I believe that some complaints about VB will appear after the projector has been used for a few hours.

I had the AE-500, and at first saw almost none VB, but after used it for some hours the VB was more, and more visibly. When I reached 400+ hours I could not stand it anymore and sold it.

Now I had read a post in a Swedish forum with an AE-700 being virtually VB free in the beginning, and now he want to send the unit back.

I really wished Panasonic had done something about this, especially considering the big problems they had on the 500.

Sanyo on the other hand made it possible in the Z2 to reduce VB trough service menu, and now on the Z3 its even more simple, you have something called panel adjustment in the menus.

Why did not Panasonic do this… :(

TheFerret

10-11-04, 07:55 AM

Was the unit no longer under warranty? Especially since the problem seemed to get worse over time?

MikeV

10-11-04, 08:05 AM

For those of you who wonder how the AE700 compares to the TW200, TX100 and the Z3, this is from cine4home.de:

"Großes Vergleichsspecial zwischen PTAE700, PLV-Z3, Epson EMP TW200 und Hitachi PJ-TX100"

Would be extremely interesting to read about this comparison. I will contain myself and not ask them to include the HS51 ;)
Should be online soon.

ricardofelisbert

10-11-04, 10:15 AM

It must seem prety basic, but what's VB ?

MikeV

10-11-04, 10:19 AM

On most of the forums I visit it means Visual Basic ;), but here it stands for vertical banding (I think). It is a common problem with LCD pjs where columns of pixels have a slightly higher or lower brightness, thus causing vertical bands mostly seen in uniform images like dunes, sky etc.

ricardofelisbert

10-11-04, 10:45 AM

thank's !!!

ricardofelisbert

10-11-04, 10:59 AM

I'm used to go to Portuguese foruns, witch are very diferent from this. In number of people, and therefore in questions raised. I've bought the ae700 and i'm waiting for tomorow delivery. I confesse that i'm quite scared about what i can read in this forum.

When i decided to buy the ae700 it seems a good/perfect choice. It will be my first PJ, and i was delaing the aquisition for many time now (old dream).

I really hope that the good things can overcome all this problems/questions. In part i too think that some of you are very demanding consumers, with lot of knowledge.

Resuming i still think that i'm keeping the PJ, even if i didn't see it working. After all they are some guys who tell good things about it, hehe.

Have fun

leedees

10-11-04, 11:36 AM

ricardofelisbert,

Enjoy your new projector, it is an excellent choice. I sure you will find it a fantastic projector that will entertain you for a long time!

You can learn a lot from the guys on this forum and you are correct, they are exceptionally demanding consumers.

Ericbres

10-11-04, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by leedees
You can learn a lot from the guys on this forum and you are correct, they are exceptionally demanding consumers.

Among other colorful adjectives :D

Bottom line on the AE700 ... regardless of what we want to complain about it ... it is leagues better than the best you could buy for $2100 just 2 years ago.

So please folks, no worries about any pre-orders! ;)

TheFerret

10-11-04, 12:49 PM

We aren't complaining. We've merely found 10,000 different aspects of the AE700 to chat about. :D

hitchfan

10-11-04, 01:45 PM

I should be receiving mine in a day or two and, although it's my first FP, I'm not spooked at all by the Powell review or the user reviews on ProjectorCentral.

I'm even willing to accept that a couple of the negative user reviews as plausible since I think there are some who could have had this unit in their possession by this past weekend and it's also plausible that someone could get a bum unit. Stuff happens.

But most of the negative user reviews so far sound like either a goof or interested parties trying to squirrel an initial roll-out of a product that, at the current price, would naturally be seen as a blow to the retailer who may have an inventory of FPs (or recent sales of FPs) of comparable feature set and PQ but at double or triple the street price of the AE700.

As far as the positive but 'subdued' Powell review. I don't know. I didn't see it as a worry really. After all, before he posted his actual review, he featured it at the top of his Cedia: A Projector Revolution article as exhibit A in the case for a new cost/value factor for the FP market with the AE700 being one of those products leading the way.

Therefore, I can understand why he wouldn't necessarily pepper THIS product review with the typical "WOW!", "Amazing" or "Stunning" accolades he might have given another positive review. If he did that with this product at the beginning of a "revolution", where do you go with the inevitable follow-ups?

And regarding the omission of more esoteric details that some may have understandably wanted to see in his review, well, if the idea is that Panasonic has, as he said at the outset, addressed all or most of the issues that consumers have complained about or that have caused resistance to buy such a product, then maybe that's why he skipped some of those details in this review and was gearing it to the broader mainstream of consumers who, like me, wouldn't know a 1:1 pixel map from a 50hz vsync...

So far the scariest report from those who I'm certain HAVE seen this product is about the potential for mild vertical banding, but that seems to be easily resolved with the "flicker tweak" detailed in this thread, many thanks to some of those kind folks who DO care about 1:1 pixel mapping and 50hz vsync!

TheFerret

10-11-04, 01:55 PM

I do not think vertical banding in and of itself is the issue, but the uncertainty that some will get units that have it through a range where some will get units that don't appear to have it. Its uncertainty that typically get's to people, myself included. And this same condition applies to other aspects as well, I think, like fixed-pattern noise.

BTW, I am about to show my limited knowledge about digital projection. Is there a common method for adjusting a displayed image so as to move the image within the panel up/down/left/right? I ask this, because my PC desktop is void of anything, including the taskbar. I do this for the clean, black desktop, but in order to achieve this on a CRT computer monitor I must use the vertical-position control to make an adjustment. Can this be done in a digital projector?

Ericbres

10-11-04, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by hitchfan

Therefore, I can understand why he wouldn't necessarily pepper THIS product review with the typical "WOW!", "Amazing" or "Stunning" accolades he might have given another positive review. If he did that with this product at the beginning of a "revolution", where do you go with the inevitable follow-ups?

I had a Chief in the Coast Guard with a mindset like that a while back Hitch ...
He never gave me a perfect evaluation regardless of my performance because he said it never gave me any room for improvement! :D ;)

However, I guess as a sailor I wasn't as revolutionary as the AE700U!

In any case, just a reminder to those of you receiving your units this week, many of us on the forum like digital photo screen shots!
Please don't forget your camera!

jasallen

10-11-04, 02:11 PM

I will be one of the last of this week's batch (expecting mine on Friday) but the digital camera is just ITCHING to take some shots! Both for the people on this forum and all my friends who were doubters to the wisdom of the Front Projection lifestyle :cool:

NavinJohnson

10-11-04, 05:08 PM

Thanks to those who came to the side of us second-guessing 'pre-orderers'. I feel more optimistic now, but bummed as I missed the first batch (#46). On the other hand, I suppose getting one of the first units off the production line isn't necessarily a good thing.

CalypsoCowboy

10-11-04, 06:03 PM

To add on to what was said earlier.

Two years ago, 2100 bought me a Panny 75U, XGA, 400:1 contrast ratio if you were lucky. So don't worry about the purchase I'm sure it will be a good one.

jammin25

10-11-04, 06:59 PM

Will be getting my AE700 Wednesday, and I was hoping someone could offer some advice concerning source connections. I will be using the PJ about 70% for DVD and 30% for HDTV. Both DVD and HDTV boxes have DVI and comp vid outputs, though I understand that the best picture is obtainable with DVI (to the HDMI input on the PJ). I have three options for connecting the devices, and I was wondering which makes the most sense:

A. Buy a $225 two-to-one DVI switch
B. Manually plug and unplug the DVI cable between the HDTV box abd the DVD player (with possible risk to cable or box pins over time?)
C. Dedicate the AE700's DVI connector to the DVD player and the comp vid connector to the HDTV box (according to the review, the AE700 strength is in the HDTV, so perhaps using component video won't make that much of a difference?)

Thanks for your help! --- John

Expletive

10-11-04, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by jammin25
Will be getting my AE700 Wednesday, and I was hoping someone could offer some advice concerning source connections. I will be using the PJ about 70% for DVD and 30% for HDTV. Both DVD and HDTV boxes have DVI and comp vid outputs, though I understand that the best picture is obtainable with DVI (to the HDMI input on the PJ). I have three options for connecting the devices, and I was wondering which makes the most sense:

A. Buy a $225 two-to-one DVI switch
B. Manually plug and unplug the DVI cable between the HDTV box abd the DVD player (with possible risk to cable or box pins over time?)
C. Dedicate the AE700's DVI connector to the DVD player and the comp vid connector to the HDTV box (according to the review, the AE700 strength is in the HDTV, so perhaps using component video won't make that much of a difference?)

Thanks for your help! --- John

Cant offer much advice here, its really up to your budget and your desire for convenience. You already stated you know that the best picture is obtainable via DVI, other than that its really up to you.

John

djsunyc

10-11-04, 07:36 PM

i would go with dvi for the dvd since that takes the bulk of your viewing time. and seriously, with HDTV, how much of a difference can there really be between dvi and component?

NavinJohnson

10-11-04, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by CalypsoCowboy
To add on to what was said earlier.

Two years ago, 2100 bought me a Panny 75U, XGA, 400:1 contrast ratio if you were lucky. So don't worry about the purchase I'm sure it will be a good one.

Calypso, we must have similar tastes, as I bought a 75U two and a half years ago for $2100, but it went with the house when we sold to my brother this past Spring. He loves it (as did I), and everyone that sees it, even today, can't believe the image. Hard to believe that was only 400:1. And too funny we're at the same price point for this much more pj. I'm a little bummed by the 1 yr warranty on the 700, but to Panasonic's credit, my 75U still hasn't had a problem and the original lamp is still running strong.

tsteves

10-11-04, 07:50 PM

jammin25
Try connecting both with DVI and component and see what the tradoffs are/aren't. It would be nice to let us know what you think about it after trying it. Might be really useful to a lot of people. I'm interested in this pj and am not jumping with excitement over buying a dvi switch either.

Souki

10-11-04, 08:02 PM

Well, Projection Central is currently testing the Z3 and will have the full review this Friday. They're going to compare it to the AE700.

But the big news is that they're hoping (pending on time shipment arrivals) to have a shoot out between the Sony VPL-HS51 vs Sanyo PLV-Z3 vs Infocus SP5000 vs Panasonic AE700 vs Infocus SP4805 vs BenQ7800 by the end of this month!!

I certainly hope they go into more details regarding the PQ this time around.

JDEATON

10-11-04, 09:29 PM

Numerous checks of the UPS tracking website confirm my new 700 is now in Atlanta and will deliver tomorrow (Tuesday). I'm taking the day off. I've spent the last several years finishing off the basement with the sole intent of one day having my dream theater. Its been a fun project. The past couple of months have been spent assembling the components including Pioneer Elite's new 56 TXi, along with an Elite DV 59AVi. By the way, DVD Audio and SACD through the i-Link connection are outstanding. Unless you grew up with a decent HiFi and vinyl I don't think you can appreciate how good it really is. The speaker system is old Definitive Tech stuff but to my ears still sounds good. DirecTV was here last Thursday and converted my Std. Def round dish to a 3 LNB oval unit, and the Hi Def DirecTV receiver is up and running. I've ordered and received the Chief RPA 225 mount and I sure hope the mounting plate fits the 700. If it doesn't I certainly wouldn't be adverse to adding a couple holes and fender washers if I think I can make it work. Component video as well as HDMI cables have been run from the built in equipment rack to the PJ mounting location through a 4" PVC conduit, and a new 118" diagonal Carada Criterion has been assembled and installed. (Great service from Carada and David Giles by the way. The Criterion is every bit the equal of a Stewart in frame construction as well as fit and finish. It looks the same too.) Measurements and calculations have been checked, rechecked and checked some more. Even my wife is excited. So as I sit here this evening, I'm wondering will tomorrow ever come?

tbacos

10-11-04, 09:52 PM

Congratulations JDeaton. Sounds like a fantastic set-up. Just be sure to get up every once in a while and remind yourself what sunshine looks like. :-)

Looking forward to your AE700 review.

-tony

Borg

10-11-04, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
Calypso, we must have similar tastes, as I bought a 75U two and a half years ago for $2100, but it went with the house when we sold to my brother this past Spring. He loves it (as did I), and everyone that sees it, even today, can't believe the image. Hard to believe that was only 400:1. And too funny we're at the same price point for this much more pj. I'm a little bummed by the 1 yr warranty on the 700, but to Panasonic's credit, my 75U still hasn't had a problem and the original lamp is still running strong.

Too funny! I wonder how many other 75u owners are looking at the 700? I too am a happy 75u owner. I'm upgrading for the throw distance and bookshelf placement. It's been a good PJ but it's time to get it off the coffee table and out of sight.

JamesAHall

10-11-04, 10:18 PM

How are people getting these projectors already? I'm being told by official Panasonic dealers that they aren't available in the US yet. Are you ordering them from outside the US?

TraderGordo

10-11-04, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by JamesAHall
How are people getting these projectors already? I'm being told by official Panasonic dealers that they aren't available in the US yet. Are you ordering them from outside the US?

Well, they don't know what they are talking about. Forum sponsor ProjectorPeople just shipped 40 of them (I was #49 on their list). They don't seem to know when more are coming. Since other forum sponsor Visual Apex already dropped prices (which still perplexes me) and says they should ship before month end, I decided to switch my order over to them (which also buys me time as we hear all the feedback from new owners this week and next).

TheFerret

10-11-04, 11:49 PM

JDEATON, any chance we could get together for an audition? I am up in Buford near the Mall of Georgia.

CalypsoCowboy

10-12-04, 12:46 AM

Yah my 75U has been great but I really don't like it hanging down from the ceiling. The throw and lens shift are big sellers on the 700 for me.

But if ProjectorCentral is doing a shootout, that would be good, but so far they are on my iffy list since the screen shootout. I'd like to see how it compares with the sp5000 as it's msrp is cheaper and the contrast isn't the same.

MikeV

10-12-04, 02:52 AM

cine4home.de: CR Z3 900:1, 1460:1 with filter.

Sonyuser

10-12-04, 03:25 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I just spent 45 minutes at this extremely late hour writing a report on the viewing of an AE700 by me and three of my friends. But after I ran a spell check, ALL of my material was deleated, saying that I was not signed on. And so I am off to sleep and disgustingly so. All I will say is that we saw NO vertical banding, that when the Iris was turned on the black level improved perceptively, but not by much, and that we saw no scaling artifacts at either 480 p or at 720 p with input from three different DVD players. I was quite suprised that the 700's picture was sharper than my well focused Sony 10HT, via Avia test patterns and eyeballing. That is all!

PeterJK

10-12-04, 05:40 AM

Nice impressions Sonyuser, sounds very positive. Sorry to hear about your post - would have loved to have read your extended impressions!

suffolk112000

10-12-04, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Sonyuser
Ladies and Gentlemen:

I just spent 45 minutes at this extremely late hour writing a report on the viewing of an AE700 by me and three of my friends. But after I ran a spell check, ALL of my material was deleated, saying that I was not signed on. And so I am off to sleep and disgustingly so. All I will say is that we saw NO vertical banding, that when the Iris was turned on the black level improved perceptively, but not by much, and that we saw no scaling artifacts at either 480 p or at 720 p with input from three different DVD players. I was quite suprised that the 700's picture was sharper than my well focused Sony 10HT, via Avia test patterns and eyeballing. That is all!

Sonyuser,

I have had that happen to me once or twice my self. Pretty frustrating.
Please give us your impressions. We all want to know. It looks like by the end of this weekend we will have plenty of reviews to feed off, from both professionals and common enthusiasts. The problem is waiting till then!! I am really curious to hear Projector Centrals review of the 700 and the Z3 together.

Craig:)

DanHouck

10-12-04, 08:24 AM

We need a new thread for all these reviews, please! :)

TheFerret

10-12-04, 08:37 AM

Dan, I think its prohibited. :D But I agree with you. Maybe the initial post should say what minimally needs to be covered. like environment requirements, etc. Darinp2 made a good point in how the environment where increased contrast could be lost in less than perfect environments and I tend to agree with him.

Ericbres

10-12-04, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
Thanks to those who came to the side of us second-guessing 'pre-orderers'. I feel more optimistic now, but bummed as I missed the first batch (#46). On the other hand, I suppose getting one of the first units off the production line isn't necessarily a good thing.

Well, if it makes you feel any better ... the "first batch" that arrived in the US for sale are still behind all the units that arrived in the US as demo pieces for reviews ... and behind all the units that shipped to Asia, Europe and Australia already.
The few dozen that arrived and shipped here are more like in the ~500 area of units coming off the Panasonic assembly line.

*** Edit - Dan, maybe you should drop a PM to Kyser and MP to see if we can make a dedicated "AE700U - Reviews Only!" thread and promise to make it something that ONLY PEOPLE POSTING REVIEWS can post to? Or maybe they can lock a thread that only THEY can post to and we can send our reviews to them to post in this thread? Any thoughts?

TheFerret

10-12-04, 09:45 AM

Hey now, we'll also need a dedicated AE700 Tweaks sticky, too. :D

GKMad

10-12-04, 09:56 AM

>> BTW, I am about to show my limited knowledge about digital projection. Is there a common method for adjusting a displayed image so as to move the image within the panel up/down/left/right? I ask this, because my PC desktop is void of anything, including the taskbar. I do this for the clean, black desktop, but in order to achieve this on a CRT computer monitor I must use the vertical-position control to make an adjustment. Can this be done in a digital projector?

I'm wondering the same thing. People claim that this projector is finicky and only takes exact refresh rates for 720p and 1080i. This makes me wonder how many custom resolutions I can use with powerstrip. And can I adjust the overscan using powerstrip? What I'm referring to is all on the PC side. I'm guessing the projector doesn't have these adjustments, but let's get an official answer!

TheFerret

10-12-04, 10:04 AM

Since I minimize my taskbar, the norally-set image would produce a 1-2 pixel rows across the bottom of the panel (guessing, here), which I would like to adjust downward provided the 1-2 rows at the top don't present a problem.

SMP01

10-12-04, 10:14 AM

Please don't start a new thread.

Even if you want to restrict it to reviews, other comments will be scattered throughout.

I don't want to follow 2 main threads on the same topic.

TheFerret

10-12-04, 10:25 AM

So, you are saying you want to read everything there is to say about AE700 even if it only applys to one-guy's situation? This could be a problem in trying to follow 10-20 reviews in between 20-50 tweakers all going at it in one thread. Can you imagine trying to sift through +2000-5000 posts in a single thread in order to dig out just one review or one tweak?

GKMad

10-12-04, 11:50 AM

AHhhh!!! UPS tracking says OUT FOR DELIVERY! I'm taking the afternoon off! Let the excitement begin!

RadioPlay

10-12-04, 12:00 PM

Sorry guys I know this subject is probably beat to death on other forums but I'm looking at pre ordering the 700 for my first projector and curious on VB issues with past panny's. For those of you who are upgrading from previous panny's has there been any testing to see if VB is more apparent across various connections and HTPC configs?

For instance is it more apparent in component, vga, DVI or HDMI? Is there any relation to 1:1 pixel mapping? How about different media players/CODECS? Resolutions, Nvidia vs ATI, etc...

Thanks guys, I'm just nervous making the first step into the projector world or maybe it's just nervous about dropping $2K. I can't imagine the time and research the guys in the over $3500 forums have to go through before purchasing. Between this and my reef tank and my studio my wife is definitely questioning my sanity!:D

TraderGordo

10-12-04, 12:02 PM

From the onset I always assumed I would be doing a "real" mount when I got this projector. But after reading other people's comments and the p.c. review (which stunk) I've starting to think "WHY NOT" shelf mount it? It would make it a lot more portable if I want to use it for business purposes, and its going to be a heck of a lot easier to install, and might even look better.

So with that in mind -- my only question/concern is -- how far from the back wall does the rear air-intake need to be?

EDIT: After revewing the pdf user manual I see the intake is actually on the SIDE not the back. This makes shelf mount even more attractive to me. Now, where to find a good looking little wall shelf?

JonMace

10-12-04, 12:10 PM

As its an intake, not an outtake I would say you would not need a lot of space, you need the space on the out take or the heat will not disperse and cause the PJ to over heat

NavinJohnson

10-12-04, 01:20 PM

Can we have an AE700 'subforum' under the "Digital Projectors - Under $3500 USD MSRP" where we could have various threads (or even more subforums) for: Screens, Mounting, Source Components, Reviews & Commentary, General Discussion, Tweaks/Tips, etc ??

TheFerret

10-12-04, 02:10 PM

What about discrete codes for remotes? Anyone know if the previous models had discrete codes for changing inputs, discrete On and Off, etc.?

JamesAHall

10-12-04, 02:42 PM

It's amazing how uninformed dealers can be. I sent mine the link showing them that ProjectorPeople already had them in and they told me that they are lying! Yeah, right guys.

I wish they would just tell the truth about them. Then again, maybe they don't know the truth.

Ericbres

10-12-04, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by JamesAHall
It's amazing how uninformed dealers can be. I sent mine the link showing them that ProjectorPeople already had them in and they told me that they are lying! Yeah, right guys.

I wish they would just tell the truth about them. Then again, maybe they don't know the truth.

I am wondering if they are also in denial that dozens of users have been receiving their AE700's this week ... and will be over the next few weeks?

It is important to believe 25% of what you HEAR about a new projector being released ... and 75% of what you SEE. This rule of thumb not only applies to specifications and image ... but also definately includes what some dealers are spewing for "estimated delivery dates". Especially the folks who's dates strangely get pushed out 2 more weeks ... just before the product was previously "scheduled to arrive".

Ferret:
Here is a thread discussing the discrete codes for the Panasonic projectors in a remote forum:
http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-discrete/thread.cgi?1972

Doesn't sound promising ... and I thought I recalled the Panny Tech I was speaking to saying they weren't available.

Lightjug

10-12-04, 03:39 PM

A few posts asking for a separate forum for reviews, but I noticed a while back AVS already has one. Go to the pull down menu at top, select 'Services', then select 'Gear Views'. Judging from the lack of reviews (1 for Panny 500, none for the Z2 or InFocus 4805... the Panny 700 is not listed yet), not too many people know about this or don't want to use it. I think this would be a great resource for someone who doesn't want to wade through hundreds of posts. Just my .02 :)

broadwayblue

10-12-04, 06:07 PM

JDEATON

10-12-04, 06:13 PM

The 700 is here, and I can confirm the Chief mount, RPA 225 does indeed fit with no modification. (same mount used for the 300 and 500) I have it mounted, hooked up, aligned to the screen and am waiting for darkness. Black out shades are next on the list. I'll give some impressions tomorrow, but keep in mind, seeing as this is my first projector, I may be easily impressed. One thing I do want to mention is how much I've enjoyed AVS Forum over the last year and a half or so. The insights have been invaluable.

John

fallwood

10-12-04, 07:46 PM

Does using lens shift on the ae700 affect the picture quality at all. my mate got his 700 today and i went round to help set it up. After id installed all the latest graphics drivers and 1:1 pixel mapped it i notiiced that it didnt look anywhere near as sharp as my ae500, i have a 5'7" across screen with the projector ceiling mounted at a distance of about 9 foot, my mate has a 6"6" across screen with the projector at a distance of about 13'. The focus seems to be off from about halfway down to the bottom and in the top right corner of the screen, you can easily see this by dragging an icon around the desktop and watching it go in and out of focus, the projector is mounted in line with the top of the screen and then lens shift used to bring the image down. Would the increased screen size and distance plus use of lens shift affect the picture so dramaticaly

TheFerret

10-12-04, 08:05 PM

Hey John, its 8:04PM and you are not posting--hopefully because you are enjoying your AE700! :) So, how does the HD look on it?

jammin25

10-12-04, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by tsteves
jammin25
Try connecting both with DVI and component and see what the tradoffs are/aren't. It would be nice to let us know what you think about it after trying it. Might be really useful to a lot of people. I'm interested in this pj and am not jumping with excitement over buying a dvi switch either.

When I get the PJ, I will try both ways and let the group know which one worked out best for me (or which one didn't make a difference) --- John

crodrigues

10-13-04, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by TheFerret
What about discrete codes for remotes? Anyone know if the previous models had discrete codes for changing inputs, discrete On and Off, etc.?
Yes. At least the AE100 had them. Power is not really discrete. The only real discrete code on the AE100 was for the VGA input. But as after you were on the VGA you could cycle through the inputs it was very easy to create some 'discrete codes' for the inputs. For example, to select the component you would select the VGA and then send the input code three times. Works perfectly on mine. Not sure what happened later on the AE200/300/500. But I guess this may be possible.

KongFan

10-13-04, 02:18 AM

Hi All-

This is my first post (ever!) (on any forum!). I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm (excitedly) awaiting my first projector, a pre-ordered Panasonic 700 from Visual Apex, who assured me when I ordered on Oct. 1 that they would be processing the very first available 700's in the country, as they are right next to Panasonic's distribution center in Washington. Perhaps they meant the first in their region. I called today, after learning on this forum of V.A.'s price reduction, to determine if the reduction would automatically apply to my pre-order, and was told that it would, and that their E.T.A. is still Oct. 15-30. It seems that ProjectorPeople is leaving no doubt about having already received their first shipment of 700's, by posting on their site a very unambiguous photo of an employee, in an official P.P. shirt, standing next to a stack of boxed 700's and pointing the the model# printed on one of them. Case closed, I guess. I have many questions/comments for all you kooks (like me :)), but I'm not even sure I'm doing this right, so I'll post something again once I see if this works.

KongFan

KongFan

10-13-04, 03:58 AM

Hey all you other anxious, fidgety Panasonic 700 pre-owners (like myself):

Among the various potential bugs/shortcomings of the 700, such as Vertical Banding or possible lack of 1:1 pixel mapping, the worst for me, by far, is its possibly less-than-stellar scaling of 480I/P material, as noted in Projector Central's quirky review. My primary interest in the PJ is for watching DVD's. Getting cold feet, I called Visual Apex (where my pre-order was placed) to explore other more suitable, and perhaps less expensive alternatives, though I knew that would take me a few steps down from the otherwise groundbreaking 700. Candice at V.A. acted as my crisis counselor, managing to convince me to not jump ship just yet on the 700 by describing a simultaneous side-by-side comparison of the Panasonic 500 with the 700 which 8 or 9 V.A. people had attended the night before. She was forthright about her less-than-hyper-critical standards, but said the 700's performance with DVD's appeared no less sharp than on the 500, but looked to her eyes to have substantially better contrast. She said the whole group had thought it was a pretty remarkable image. I asked her if she knew if, by chance, their DVD player was one that upconverted to 720P. She didn't, but put me on hold to go ask the tech who'd set it up if he knew. Well, sure enough, it was, but the tech said he was pretty sure he'd used the 480P output, as he hadn't even considered the potential 720P output while hooking it up. This gives you an idea just how hair-splittingly scientific this comparison was, but, if he's right, might mean the 700's scaling isn't too gruesomely bad.

But say it turns out that it is. Projector Central's review said the 700's performance with 720P material was excellent. It occurs to me that the much-admired up-scaling performance of V. Inc's doggone cheap Bravo D2 DVD player would be an easy fix, well within the reach of anyone capable of spending 2+K on a projector. Even with the additional cost of the player, other potentially nasty bugs notwithstanding, it still sounds to me like it's easily the best bang-for-the-buck around.

Any gaping holes in my logic?

Now, down to my last few dimes, I've got to figure out a screen. Blackout cloth? Goo? White? Gray? Butcher paper? Hmmmmmm....

KongFan

yipchunyu

10-13-04, 04:16 AM

anyone connect the ae700 to pc with the HDMI? I'm using ATI9600, just want to know is it ok to do so. Any comment is very much appreciated.

reaper

10-13-04, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by KongFan
It occurs to me that the much-admired up-scaling performance of V. Inc's doggone cheap Bravo D2 DVD player would be an easy fix, well within the reach of anyone capable of spending 2+K on a projector. Even with the additional cost of the player, other potentially nasty bugs notwithstanding, it still sounds to me like it's easily the best bang-for-the-buck around.

Any gaping holes in my logic?

Now, down to my last few dimes, I've got to figure out a screen. Blackout cloth? Goo? White? Gray? Butcher paper? Hmmmmmm....

KongFan

That is basically what I intend to do... buy a ~$200 upscaling DVD player and never worry about it again. Although, there are a lot of upscaling DVD players, so deciding which one is right for me will be more difficult.

On the screen side, I just recently got my screen for free. A 16x9 92 inch screen. It is blackout cloth painted with Goo. Can't beat that deal eh!? hehe.

reaper

reaper

10-13-04, 05:11 AM

BTW, the one hole in the logic of buying an upscaling DVD player is the fact that many sources still are not 720p. What happens then, when you play Xbox at 480p or PS2 at 480i? Hrmmm...

jsmooove

10-13-04, 06:26 AM

No hole in his logic his primary use and therefore concern was dvd.

mad_arab

10-13-04, 07:09 AM

Has anyone seen the AE700 side-by-side with a Matterhorn? I'm curious about how my Sharp XV-Z200 will compare to the latest in LCD

ricardofelisbert

10-13-04, 07:21 AM

My ae700 arrived yesterday. I'm using a Denon 3910 and a Supra HDMI cable (15 m or 50"), and a Draper Luma screen. I know that the cable is a long one, but that was my only chance.

All this equipment was bougth in the last two weeks, and therefor i don't know it very well still. The test started with no peticular tunning, I've just chose the modes in both equipments that suits me better. Very basic stuff, later i'll trie to get the most of it, for the moment i just wanted to see what it could do.

I found the images very good, the defenition, the colors, contrast to. Some blacks could be better, but my main concern was about a flash light that appear once in a while (once or twice per movie).

I rewind the dvd and it wasn't there anymore. I've another option to connect the dvd (scart cable) and i will trie it today, to see if that flash light come from the cable.

I've thought that the other sources of problem could be the projector itself or the power besides the cable (the dvd player when connect to the TV never made that, even so i've the old sony to test with to) .

Could someone tell me anything about this ? The flash ligth apears only for a fraction of a second, it almost cannot be seen if you are not looking carefully.

Thank's for the opinion/advice

jammin25

10-13-04, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by reaper
That is basically what I intend to do... buy a ~$200 upscaling DVD player and never worry about it again. Although, there are a lot of upscaling DVD players, so deciding which one is right for me will be more difficult.

reaper

Hi reaper, I agree with you about the difficulty choosing which upscaling DVD player is best for the AE700; there seem to be more coming out every month. I have my eye on two recent models that upconvert to 720p and also have HDMI outputs - The Toshiba SD-5970 ($200) and the Sony DVP-NS975V ($300). Don't know if their digital processing circuits are any better or worse than the Bravo D2. In this price range of upscaling DVD players, do you think there would be any perceptible performance difference?

--- John

Tup

10-13-04, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by jammin25
Hi reaper, I agree with you about the difficulty choosing which upscaling DVD player is best for the AE700; there seem to be more coming out every month. I have my eye on two recent models that upconvert to 720p and also have HDMI outputs - The Toshiba SD-5970 ($200) and the Sony DVP-NS975V ($300). Don't know if their digital processing circuits are any better or worse than the Bravo D2. In this price range of upscaling DVD players, do you think there would be any perceptible performance difference?

--- John

John:

Check out the DVD forum. The Toshiba does not get a good report at all!!! The Sony might be ok but the best bet might be the new Panasonic due any time now.

JDEATON

10-13-04, 08:33 AM

Wow! I'm thrilled. Clarity, detail, and color rendition are outstanding. Brightness is more than enough for my 118" BW Carada. Set up was time consuming but not difficult. The lens adjustment is not the easiest to work with. (separate and independent X-Y axis controls would be better, but once its set up it becomes a non issue.) Prior to the announcement of the 700, I had my sites set on the Yamaha LPX 510 which really impressed me. In my opinion, the 700 is every bit the equal of the 510 and perhaps better. Without being able to do an A-B comparison, how can you really know. My wife and I watched a lot of different stuff last night (Pirates of the Caribbean, The Lion King, and Master and Commander, on DVD through a Pioneer Elite DV 59 AVi over both component and HDMI. (Very little detectable difference between component and HDMI on either DirecTV or DVD, and my wife thought DVD looked slightly sharper via interlaced rather than progressive DVD output.) While not HD resolution, I thought it looked excellent. BTW, Picture Mode was set to Cinema 1. HD was simply breathtaking. The colors and detail on Bad Boys 2 was excellent, and the baseball game on Fox in 720p was just like being there. So far I have not been able to detect any VB. At this point, I couldn't be happier. I've looked at some DLP machines (Marantz 12 S3 and Sharp 12000Z) and for my money the 700 is a vey small compromise.

John

jasallen

10-13-04, 09:04 AM

John,

Fantastic Comments -- As a fellow first-time FP owner I was very interested in your comments. While I credit myself with not being insanely reactionary to the criticisms of the elite, they were beginning to take there toll on my comfort level. Good to head another stellar review from someone with (what I consider) realistic expectations and an eye calibrated only to human standards!

thatdreamer

10-13-04, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by JDEATON
BTW, Picture Mode was set to Cinema 1.

Just FYI, the tweakers over at Cine4home.de put out a tuning article on the AE700. You can read it using the language translation on Google.

They said the "Cinema 1" mode was pretty good out of the box, but the "Natural" mode with the "color temperature attitude" set to -1 was even closer to the color-balanced 6500K standard. You might give it a try and see if it makes any difference.

duihlein

10-13-04, 09:25 AM

My AE700 was delivered yesterday. I'm pretty amazed at the picture for both DVD and regular E* sat. This is my first projector so I may still just be overwhelmed by the size of the screen. I have a 106" DIY Blackout Cloth screen. I set the projector up just behind me. Fan noise was barely audible at about 18".

DVD
My DVD player is Panasonic XP30 connected via component. It is progressive scan but not upconverting. I ran through Bugs Life, Star Wars, LOTR to get a quick idea how the picture will look with DVD's. The picture is far better than I expected. No VB at all. Out of the box colors were very good. I scanned through several picture modes, but I can't recall which I used the most. Contrast was good even with a little ambient light added. I hope to run through VE so I can better judge the picture.

HD
I then watched the final 8 minutes of the Rams comeback victory over the Seahawks to see how HD football looks. Had it recorded on my HiPix. WOW. I am gonna really enjoy this!! Football looks amazing. Like your sitting on the 50 yard line. After watching my replay of the Rams victory I switched to my Dish 811 via DVI. Settled in to watch the Yanks outlast the Red Sox.

Sorry I didn't have more time to provide more details or better analyze it, but first I think I need to calibrate it. Shoot, I still haven't opened the user manual.

Dave

TheFerret

10-13-04, 09:38 AM

John (JDEATON0, do you have any dark-natured DVD's, like Panic Room, Pitch Black, Dark City, or the like? Also, do you have an Avia calibration DVD? Glad you are finding positive results with the AE700.

AustinTexas

10-13-04, 10:16 AM

I thought I'd chime in here to see if anyone in the Austin area might be interested in playing with an AE700.

I was able to get a demo unit last week and the plan is to go around to my fellow Austin HT Group (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208057) member's HT rooms over the next few days/weeks not only to put the AE700 through every HT torture test known to man, but to see how it compared to other projectors and how it looks when used with several different systems.

Within our group we have several dedicated HT systems with the following screens:

Vutec Silverstar
Stewert FireHawk
DaLite Hi-Contrast
DaLite Hi-Power
Carada (but have not confirmed which material he has - I think it is the Classic Cinema White)
DIY GooSystems (again I do not know which paint he used)
DIY Blackout Cloth w/Behr Silverscreen
DIY Parkland PLASTEX (white)

I'll get back to you all regarding additional screens and sizes.

Also, within our group and in these HT systems we have a wide variety of DVD players including all the 720p output players like Bravo, Momitsu, and the new Zenith DVB318.

If anyone is in the Austin area and would like to attend any of these demos or would like to see how the AE700 might look on your system feel free to drop me an email (THX1138@austin.rr.com)

So far we have tested out the AE700 on a 110" FireHawk, 100" Hi-Contrast, and 98" DIY PLASTEX with various players including the Zenith DVB318. Each demo lasted over two hours where we ran several AVIA test patterns and reference DVDs used to exploit strengths and weaknesses of all types of projectors.

I'll offer more details later, but it is clear to me and those that attended that not only did the AE700 have absolutely no vertical banding, but the earlier reports that the onboard video processor was not up to par appear to be grossly exaggerated.

Nils Luehrmann

GKMad

10-13-04, 10:34 AM

Got the 700 last night. Ran it for 5 hours, here’s some initial observations.

Setup on top of A/V rack (temp until shelf mount). 100% light controlled basement room. Screen is white wall, 18-20’ throw, 120” diagonal. Seating 15-16’ from screen.

PC connected via ATI’s component adapter. 1152x684 and 1280x720 both synced up to fill the screen. The former was a perfect fit, the latter had a pixel row or two of overscan. Using powerstrip had no effect – it was not able to move the picture around like I could do when the HTPC was hooked to a CRT RP HDTV. I also tried 1920x1080, it synced up, but with the internal re-scaling back to 720p, I lean towards believing that the 1280x720 resolution gave a cleaner picture. I don’t yet have an HDMI/DVI adapter, so did not test that input, nor did I test the VGA input.

Xbox connected via component. 480i menu and Halo look fine. No VB. Details in the shadows are there. Then I changed the xbox menu to 480p and tried 480p and 720p games. Both look good, but the 720p game was especially crystal clear.

PS2 connected via component. First I played SOCOM II in 480i. There are definitely details within the shadows, but the overall brightness was lacking slightly, though I attribute that to the white wall and 120” diagonal. Then I kicked SOCOM into 480p. UGH the first flaw of the 700… VB was horrid! There are 15-20 “jail bars” through the whole image. It’s not like I have to imagine it’s there, because it’s so obvious that it’s unusable. I’ll just have to play SOCOM in 480i from now on. Which, BTW, is fine as I could see no de-interlacing artifacts.

So 480p on the PS2’s socom2 was the only source so far to show VB. Xbox 480p did not show any. I’ll have to test more PS2 480p sources, as well as connect an HDTV receiver and try it with 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i modes. I’ll try it with 480i and 480p DVD too.

--------
^^^^EDIT: The next night I tried my 2nd PS2 with the projector and loaded SOCOM2 in 480p. This time there was NO VB at all. I repeat, NO VB. The first PS2 or component cable must have been bad. I also connected a DVD player at 480p and there was no evidence of VB.
--------

The fan noise was… what fan noise? I didn’t hear anything; the PS2 and PC were much louder. The exhaust air is hot, and comes out at a rather sharp angle away from the light path.

CR/blacks… the one main thing that stood out was that I had to turn off ALL lights to have a good image. Just one 40-watt bulb and the image was very washed out. The screen is so lacking that it’s unfair to make any judgments about the CR. But how I had it, it’s enjoyable and usable, until I get around to bettering the screen.

Lens… I noticed something goofy on the lens that I’m wondering about. It makes no visible affect on the screen (not that I can find yet anyway), but it still concerns me. On the inner side of the outer lens looks to be a fingerprint smudge and under it 3 ultra-tiny scratch marks. They are in parallel and all fit in the size of a pea. When I turn the zoom, the scratch marks turn with it. They are nearly invisible, but when the light path shines through it they glisten. Is this normal or a flaw? Should I be calling? Maybe I can take a picture of it to post for y’all.

^^^^EDIT: OK I tried to photo the scratches with a camera but no luck. I can't see the scratches on the projected image, so it mat be no big deal. Would this be under warranty?

EdwardETraylorII

10-13-04, 10:50 AM

I'm really perplexed here. Should I cancel my order with Prpj Peeps and go with Visual Apex? That's a big savings (just called to see how much I'd save... Wow).

Really don't know what to do here. hmmmmmmmm

TheFerret

10-13-04, 11:02 AM

GKMad, the issue with the lens bothers me. Maybe something happened during assembly. Is this something you could capture using a digital camera? BTW, nice comments, though.

About the BL & CR. You said you are shining this on a white wall. What color are the rest of the walls, ceiling, floor-treatment, etc.? Having a light controlled room is great for controling lighting coming into a room, but if the interior surfaces are white/light in color even a 40 watt lamp is going to afford a lot of reflected light around the room. In fact, even with the 40W lamp off the reflected light from the AE700 offed of the projected area onto the other walls would be a problem, I'd imagine.

Bastian12

10-13-04, 11:25 AM

Nils (AustinTexas)

I am very interested to hear about the AE700 on all those different screens. I currently have the AE700 on pre-order and it will be my first experience with a PJ. I am going to attempt a DIY screen and would love some idea of how those different screens faired.

PS. Just wanted to say thanx to everyone in this forum, it has really helped me with making an educated decision on this purchase.

Jonathan DA

10-13-04, 11:48 AM

Thanks to Nils, I was able to demo the AE700 last night with some friends. For the record, up until this latest crop of DLP projectors, I have been a die hard CRT projector hold-out, though I've been evaluating digitals for the last few years waiting for the price/performance combination to make it worth switching. The set up was a light controlled HT with a 103" diagonal Da Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision (HCCV) tensioned screen with four-way black velvet masking. The front row where I did all my viewing was about 1.3 width vs. distance from the screen. The AE700 was table mounted about 2 feet to right of my head and a foot below ear level. The sources used were a Zenith 318DB outputting upscaled 1080i/720p and 480p all over component. We also used an old Panasonic A120 for 480i. The pj was recalibrated using Avia for each dvd player. Unfortunately we didn't have any calibration tool aside from Avia available last night.

Initial setup:
Cine4home recommended the Natural setting with a color temp of -1 for their review sample. Not having a color analyzer handy, we cycled thru the different settings with our sample and decided that ours looked best with the "Normal" setting and color temp of -1. This could be unit to unit variations, the different screen, or that we're crazy. Take your pick. We started the Avia calibration from this setting. I don't recall the exact settings we settled at for each player, but all the basic picture settings do need some adjusting out of the box. Once we were finished the pj was producing a nice vibrant picture, with a very slight black crush on the cross grayscale step pattern in Avia.

First Impressions:
VB: Let's just get this out of the way first--THERE WAS NO VERTICAL BANDING ON OUR UNIT. At all. Period. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. Nothin. Trust me, I looked everywhere for it! If you play Master and Commander, the ship shots in the fog at the beginning of chapter 3 will make VB readily apparent on any projector that has it. There was none on the 700, while the 500 was displaying a horrible case of it. The closest I could come to it on the 700 was a vague impression that maybe (MAYBE) I could pick up some very slight fixed pattern noise. But then I'd blink and lose it. So I'm almost convinced it was my anti-LCD imagination hard at work.

SDE: Panasonic has really improved their smoothscreen technology this year. Even at a 1.3 viewing distance there was no screen door effect visible and no peak-a-boo scanline effect anymore. I saw the scanlines on the L300 at 1.6x and on the L500 occasionally at 1.3x. I didn't see it at all on the 700 at 1.3x. On the L500 I could still see screendoor at 1.3x. (I know people will say this isn't possible given the raves that the smoothscreen tech got on the L500, but I have 20/15 corrected vision and am used to watching a CRT with 100% fill factor). On the AE700 I couldn't see any screendoor effect at 1.3x.

Pixelation: I want to call this out as being separate from SDE, a distinction I don't see made much anymore. SDE is visibility of the interpixel gaps (black or gray lines) between pixels on the panel. Pixelation is the visibility of the squareness of the pixels. Pixelation is a function of both the technology (LCOS shows less pixelation than LCD) and the resolution of the panels (higher res panels have more dots per inch thus the eye has a harder time picking out the shape of the individual pixel). The pixelation evident on the AE700 was relatively low, probably due in large part the smoothscreen combined with the native 720p res. When connected to the Zenith 318 there was more pixelation evident at all resolutions (480p/720p/1080i) than when connected to the Panasonic A120 at 480i. However, the image was sharper with the Zenith. The A120 produced a slightly softer image, probably due to the AE700's internal deinterlacer and scaler. Which brings us to…

Deinterlacing and Scaling: We used a few movies, including Once Upon A Time in the West, Fight Club, Return of the Jedi, and Toy Story 2. As I mentioned above, with the A120 we were utilizing the projector's deinterlacer and scaler. I thought the image was a tad soft, but still very enjoyable. In fact, I preferred the A120's image to the Zenith's image on any setting (see my DVD player comments below). I didn't notice any jaggies or tearing on any of the movies. I think this is very good performance for a non DCDi solution.

Contrast, Color: Great colors, great contrast! I am not a huge contrast junkie. I've found that anything around 1000:1 or greater is satisfying for me as long as the color accuracy is, well, accurate. Even without individual gain adjustments, I found the colors and contrast to be very good, but…

Absolute Black Level and the Dynamic Iris: I may not be a huge contrast junkie, but I am a spoiled CRT owner and absolute black level is very important to me. As such, the AE700 has the best LCD black levels I've seen with the iris engaged. Without the iris the black levels are around the L500 level, which I considered unacceptable. The iris is an absolute must for movie watching. As is masking. Even with all that, I still found the black level lacking, but for 90% of the population it is probably good enough.

Fan Noise: Total non issue in either bulb mode; this is the quietest pj I've ever heard. Quieter than the Immersive Virtuoso I'd guess without having them side by side.

Overall: Simply a great entry level projector. I'd recommend a gray screen to help with the black levels, and I wouldn't pair it with a Zenith 318DB. Try to get an older Panasonic player with DCDi if you're going to use the component inputs, or go with one of the new HDMI scaling players.

A comment about the DVD players. I've watched a couple movies on the Zenith/L500 combo before, but last night was my first chance to really compare the Zenith to another player (albeit an obsolete model). After comparing the A120 and 318DB, I am a bit surprised at how many good reviews the Zenith has received. Our player had a green push that we couldn't get rid of and it added edge enhancement to everything on all settings. The sharpness setting was turned all the way down on the AE700 and the edge enhancement was not visible when using the A120. Has anyone else experienced this? The Zenith produce superior blacks compared to the A120 on its Darker setting.

That's all I have, I hope this mini-review helps some of you decide if this is the projector for you.