For an example, I'll take a stab that the 950:1 case is 600 lumens and the 2000:1 case is 400 lumens for white. That puts the black level for the 950:1 case at 0.63 lumens and for the 2000:1 case at 0.2 lumens.


Well take a stab :) You assume 33% light loss due to the tuning. But actually the projector gains 18% compared to the Cinema1 mode.

So your example might work for other projectors but not for the PT700 nor for the Z3....


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

I just finish reading the bulk of the Google-translated tuning you did on the AE700. If I read the material correctly, you started off with video+filter and then calibrated from there to achieve the 2018:1 measurement, but at no time do you state what exact filter(s) you used. Can you enlighten me, here? I'll also PM this question to you.

[/QUOTE]
A comment about the DVD players. I've watched a couple movies on the Zenith/L500 combo before, but last night was my first chance to really compare the Zenith to another player (albeit an obsolete model). After comparing the A120 and 318DB, I am a bit surprised at how many good reviews the Zenith has received. Our player had a green push that we couldn't get rid of and it added edge enhancement to everything on all settings. The sharpness setting was turned all the way down on the AE700 and the edge enhancement was not visible when using the A120. Has anyone else experienced this? The Zenith produce superior blacks compared to the A120 on its Darker setting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Jonathan
Thanks for the info I have both the Panasonic rp-56 and the zenith currently I have the pana hooked up to my new panasonic 42 inch plasma (7uy) and I was going to use the zenith with the panasonic pj. Are you saying that i should rethink my position.


thanks for the great review.

Originally posted by Cine4Home
Well take a stab :) You assume 33% light loss due to the tuning. But actually the projector gains 18% compared to the Cinema1 mode.

Are you saying that the projector is brighter with the filter than without the filter (at d65 of course)?

--Darin

Ferret,
The room is a dedicated HT with dark khaki colored walls (flat finish, sort of looks like leather), 10 foot ceiling. The screen is shadowboxed into a proscenium and everything on the front wall is covered in either black velvet or black speaker cloth over the acoustically important areas. There are columns on either side of the screen that are the khaki color. I didn't find them to be distracting.

The black crush issue is minor, the crush only affected the lowest IRE value that Avia displays on the gray step pattern. We could easily fix the crush issue by adjusting the brightness control two clicks, but that also raised the absolute black level. I think with a color analyzer and adjustments of the individual gain levels this problem would go away entirely. We were very close to getting rid of it with just standard adjustments. I can't comment on whether the filters would effect the crush, not having tried them.

The Zenith was passing 0 IRE for black. The Panasonic A120 had a "Darker" black setting, which we used, but its levels still weren't quite as good as the Zenith.

John,
I didn't notice any color fringing on the panels. We didn't watch any credits, but the internal menus didn't fringe, and I didn't notice any fringing on any of the DVD title menus or the Avia step patterns.

Manufanatic,
I would try both players and decide for yourself. I'm always hesitant to not recommend a product just because of one bad experience. It could have been a problem with our particular player.

Are you saying that the projector is brighter with the filter than without the filter (at d65 of course)?


That is EXACTLY what I am saying. :)

The reason for this is that the Cinema Mode (which is close to D65) does not give half the Lightoutput of lets say the Video mode. However you can not get the Video mode to D65 without filter. Neither can you raise the Lightoutput of the Cinema mode. So the "Video" mode with filter is brighter than the Cinema mode without the filter.

Cool heh? ;)


Same for the Z3 by the way.


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

not wanting to take this thread off topic but I have the LG7832 (clone of the zenith 318) and I think it fires out a terrific image and don't notcie it adding any edge enhancement or there being agreen push to the image. I am using it with my Epson 500 pj. My other dvd player I use in my other setup is the Panny RP91 and the LG produces a flat out superior image in every possible way.

Good quality transfers upscaled to 1080i with the LG look as good (or close to as good) as a fair amount of HD material I see on tv.

Good to hear Rob, maybe we had a bum unit.

Originally posted by Cine4Home
That is EXACTLY what I am saying. :)

The reason for this is that the Cinema Mode (which is close to D65) does not give half the Lightoutput of lets say the Video mode. However you can not get the Video mode to D65 without filter. Neither can you raise the Lightoutput of the Cinema mode. So the "Video" mode with filter is brighter than the Cinema mode without the filter.

Cool heh? ;)


Same for the Z3 by the way.


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Any word on when your BIG AE700 review will be online? :) We await with bated breath..;)

Originally posted by Cine4Home
Cool heh? ;) Yeh. That does change everything. I've never heard of projectors that would do this. Personally, I think it means their designs are kind of out of whack, but heh, if it works don't knock it. In this case I would say pretty much everybody here who wants balanced colors should be using a filter. And it reverses my example. The non-filtered case will washout quicker with ambient light given that it is dimmer. There is always the option of foregoing the balanced colors when the lights are on in which case the unfiltered situation with things maxed out would fight the ambient light better, but that is another case and not something everybody will want to do.

How about putting individual filters inside for a couple of the individual colors (so that the weakest color doesn't have to pass through another filter)? Do you think this would be worth it? I guess if the projector already has plenty of lumens with one filter then this wouldn't buy a whole lot.

--Darin

Jonathan:

Now you say you are a CRT guy and that you have some interenst in the latest DLP.....how good do you rate the 700? Would you buy one? Would you say that now LCD can give DLP a run?

Originally posted by mad_arab
Has anyone seen the AE700 side-by-side with a Matterhorn? I'm curious about how my Sharp XV-Z200 will compare to the latest in LCD

I talked to a rep (Carla) at Visual Apex, and she said that they had put it head-2-head against a BenQ 7800 or 8700 (I can't remember which). She said that the new AE700 looked as good, maybe better.

The BenQ7800 has the matterhorn (I believe), and the 8700 has a similair chip with higher resolution. In any case, Carla was quite enamoured about how the AE700 looked next to the BenQ DLP projector.

I would assume they were playing a DVD. I have no idea how the projectors were connected, or whether the signal was interlaced or not, so I guess the off-the-cuff remark by her should not be taken too seriously.

How about putting individual filters inside for a couple of the individual colors (so that the weakest color doesn't have to pass through another filter)? Do you think this would be worth it?


Actually I tried that a couple of months ago with a Sanyo Z2. I put a special green filter in front of the G panel and Blue filter in front of the B panel.
The R panel was left without filter.

Now it was possible to reach D65 that way and actually I could improve the Primaries (I corrected the green Primary to standard). But the light gain was minimal compared to the standard filter method. You hardly lose an Red when using a good filter.

So no, it is not really worth the hassle (besides the warranty problems this method might cause).

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Ekkehart,

Please tell us d65 lumens unfiltered and filtered.........it sounds very exciting that an LCD can do a bright 2000:1 at d65.

Two more things, if you don't mind........1) How bad is motion smear in fast moving scenes and 2) Does the use of a filter negatively impact, in any way, the color accuracy of the image?

thanks,

Daniel

I'm sorry, did we get a clear answer on which filter used with the video mode would produce these apparently stellar results?

Originally posted by rogo
I'm sorry, did we get a clear answer on which filter used with the video mode would produce these apparently stellar results?

Not yet I'm afraid = perhaps a visit from a few of the more muscular members of the community might help cine4home share the info. ;)

Barring that I hope that some will try with a CC15 or CC20 to see if that will gain enough CR.

ted

I understand Cinehomes stance on filter info and if i lived in Germany i would avail myself of his services. He has spent considerable time on this area and has developed a base of proprietary knowledge which if i was him i certainly wouldnt give out to all and sundry.

However i am not in Germany nor am i likely to be. So where does that leave me ? :)

Ekkehart, have you measured ANSI contrast ratio on this projector? (both with and without the filter)

Thanks,

Andy K.

Look, guys, the problem with Cine4home giving out filter info is not because it is a huge secret. The problem is that different units come off the line with different problems, and so they need different filters. If you use Google to translate the Cine4home tweak guides, you'll see that the Z2, for example, had quite significant variations from one unit to the other.

So far Cine4home has only tweaked a very few AE700s, and I doubt anyone else has calibrated more of them than they have. At this point, nobody on the planet knows how much variation there is between different AE700 units. So how can anyone make a filter reccomendation?

tvted
Jeez, that was rogo, how much more "muscular" do you want!
He is a bit annoyingly accurate in verbiage and thought at times ;>)
(sorry for the funky emoticon, I just want to be sure that rogo knows I'm trying to be seethingly complimentary)
Durabolin's point is true, but a hint would be nice.

Now you say you are a CRT guy and that you have some interenst in the latest DLP.....how good do you rate the 700? Would you buy one? Would you say that now LCD can give DLP a run?

I'm primarily a value space purchaser when it comes to projectors since the tech is advancing so fast. The AE700 performs well enough and is cheap enough that I would sell my Barco 801G for it. Now if I had an 8" EM focus CRT already on my ceiling and calibrated, I wouldn't make the trade.

As for LCD giving DLP a run...the better black levels of the current DLPs still trump LCD for me, but the overall value of LCD is equal to that of DLP when you consider the resolution/price advantage. It's all a matter of tradeoffs. What I really want out of a digital pj is an LCOS machine with good black levels at LCD prices :)

Jonathan DA
Very nice review, btw. Good comments, too.

Look, guys, the problem with Cine4home giving out filter info is not because it is a huge secret. The problem is that different units come off the line with different problems, and so they need different filters. If you use Google to translate the Cine4home tweak guides, you'll see that the Z2, for example, had quite significant variations from one unit to the other.


Yes this a problem, we have to explain over and over again. Take for example the Hitachi TX100: Some need Red filters, others need pink filters (no joke) and the deviation makes it necessary that we have to measure the individual white level and find the best matching filter.

So the PT700 we tested needed a red filter with a light orange tint. But if this will apply to others we can not say for sure.

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Originally posted by tsteves
tvted
Jeez, that was rogo, how much more "muscular" do you want!
If only it were intellectual muscle but maybe he knows Karate or something. Actually he probably does.;)

Durabolin's point is true, but a hint would be nice.
As noted in a followup (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4498222#post4498222) by cine4home a reddish filter is what's needed (because of the colour composition of the bulb), so I suggest someone start with with a CC15 or CC20 (red of course) and work from there - per Steve Smallcombe's work with the SMART III system. Unless you care to purchase a few filters within that range I believe that we DIY tweakers might have to be satisfied with less than optimum - who knows it might be enough.

ted

Cine4Home
So with a certain red/orange filter on that particular pj you can get "brighter" output with video mode than cinema mode. I don't understand the reason people find this exciting. If you said "contrast ratio"....
Sorry, waiting for a real english translation.

tsteves,

the only way to achieve the 2000:1 contrast is by using the lamp modulation, dynamic iris, and color filter. W/o the filter, contrast is limited to 950:1. The additional brightness achieved by using the filter is just icing, and a sweet tasting icing it is. :)

daniel

I believe Cine4Home is saying:

Cinema mode: moderately accurate color, lowest brightness, lowest contrast ratio

Video mode: least accurate color, highest brightness, highest contrast ratio

Video mode with filter: most accurate color, high brightness, high contrast ratio

can anyone can confirm the AE700 can work with a PC with the use of a DVI>HDMI cable?

The wife and I finally talked ourselves into a front projector and this forum, a few other places and my hesitancy to spend 'real' money on a projector without knowing much about them made the choice the AE700. So:

AE700
Carada H118C (118") Brilliant White screen
DVDO IScan HD processor
cables, cables, cables..

The credit card company called up and asked "Are you really doing this?" I had to think twice, but ended up saying "yes" anyway. :-)

So.. I'm anxious to see how this lashup matches up to my expectations. Not that I really know what to expect yet..

--jim

Originally posted by yipchunyu
can anyone can confirm the AE700 can work with a PC with the use of a DVI>HDMI cable?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4475191#post4475191

Originally posted by Shedrock
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4475191#post4475191

someone in other forum said some display card is not HDMI 1.0 compatiable and it may not work. So, I asked the question. However, it seems it will work.
Any other real life experience on this?

Well, I finally took the plunge. After eight years of wanting a 16:9 TV, and about a year lurking in the forums soaking up knowledge, this afternoon I placed a preorder for an AE700. "Mid-to-late October" can't come too quickly.

Thanks all for your suggestions, comments, and arcane bits of knowledge; they've been incredibly helpful to me as I've worked up to this decision.

Originally posted by HMenke
I believe Cine4Home is saying:

Cinema mode: moderately accurate color, lowest brightness, lowest contrast ratio

Video mode: least accurate color, highest brightness, highest contrast ratio

Video mode with filter: most accurate color, high brightness, high contrast ratio
This looks like a summation. Just one little thing. I think the "Video mode" and "Video mode with filter" should have about the same CR. They might be different because of the balance between red, green, and blue, but for each of those individually adding or removing the filter shouldn't really change the CR to any one of the colors (other than a negative to ANSI CR if a substandard filter is used).

The surprise for me is that the filtered mode has higher lumens than the non-filtered mode at d65. As you point out, this isn't the highest lumens though, since that comes with unbalanced colors and no filter. I attribute the higher lumens with filter at d65 just to a lack of controls in the projector. If the projector had enough controls to get to d65 in video mode without a filter then I don't think this would be true (since a filter will always cut all three colors some amount, even if small).

--Darin

I saw that one person above had problems with banding on his ps2 in 480p. Could some other gamers that got this projector verify this? If it's just the ps2 480p output I could live with it, but if the gamecube and xbox 480p output was banded too that would be a major drawback to me (although I saw above that he didn't see banding from his xbox--just would like some others verification on this). Thanks

Taylor34

Originally posted by reaper
That is basically what I intend to do... buy a ~$200 upscaling DVD player and never worry about it again. Although, there are a lot of upscaling DVD players, so deciding which one is right for me will be more difficult.

On the screen side, I just recently got my screen for free. A 16x9 92 inch screen. It is blackout cloth painted with Goo. Can't beat that deal eh!? hehe.

reaper

Yes, I see now that we have a few choices of affordable upscaling players beyond the D2, and after seeing yet another 700 review suggesting that its own scaler may be softening 480 images a bit, it seems inevitable that I'll want to at least investigate the possible improvement. Unless, of course, I turn on my 700 and exclaim "My God, that image couldn't possibly be any sharper!" But how likely is that? (I guess I'll find out when the company I pre-ordered from, who volunteered the info that they'd be the "first", finally gets some in. The wait would be killing me if it weren't for all the cheering posts/reviews from excited early recipients of the 700)

Re: Screens: I suppose, being rendered penniless by my 700 purchase, I'll also go the blackout cloth route, topped by Goo. I bought a foot-wide test strip of BO cloth to hold up in comparison to manufactured screens at a great A/V store in my area, just to see with my own eyes how it looks (un-Goo'd). I won't have a fully dedicated & dark space for some time, but I wish the Grey Lite Goo hadn't gotten such a tepid review from Projector Central, in contrast to the CRT White which got a quite favorable review, although I've read some posts discrediting their screen reviews.

Does anyone have experience with Gray or White Goo combined with a PJ relatively similar to the 700, and in a less-than-pitch-black space? Is unpainted BO cloth unthinkable? Are the differences hair-splitting relative to other factors such as light control? I wouldn't mind a little expense and/or DIY time if I didn't feel like I was making a blind roll of the dice.

Many thanks to members of this forum for their insights, which helped immensely as I dove into my first PJ purchase. My wife, however, sick of the subject and mourning the loss of the 2K, would like to kill you all.

KongFan

quote:Originally posted by yipchunyu
can anyone can confirm the AE700 can work with a PC with the use of a DVI>HDMI cable?


Yes, I can confirm it, I used Audioquest passive DVI to HDMi with the AE700 from a Radeon 9800 with no issues.

Hi Guys,

I've been hanging around here for several years. So have many others and some are very knowedgable and have had experience with many projectors.

What baffles me a bit is that this issue of being able to increase contrast and even lumes by using a different setting and a red filter comes as such news to so many.

Certainly the contrast issue but I am pretty sure also the lumes were mentioned in many of the threads about optimizing the Sony HS20 when that was the projector of the moment.

Ekkehart has already explained and it was well summarized that most projectors have a setting that maximize light.

In (virtually) all cases this does not produce the proper colour balance since there is a lack of red and a strong dominance of blue. Green seems to vary.

So setting for maximum lumens and then correcting the colour with with a suitable filter, which must be chosen and measured for each projector since most projectors in this price segment have considerable fluctuations in their native colour balance, allows a net raising of lumens and contrast with a correct colour balance.

No magic but access to proper measuring and a large stock of different filters are a requirement to do this properly.

If one projector of a certain type is relatively close to another projector then it might be possible to recommend a decent "compromise" filter but that is not always the case.

I hope this reflects reality and could be useful to note.

Originally posted by xframe88
quote:Originally posted by yipchunyu
can anyone can confirm the AE700 can work with a PC with the use of a DVI>HDMI cable?


Yes, I can confirm it, I used Audioquest passive DVI to HDMi with the AE700 from a Radeon 9800 with no issues.

thx a lot for your info

"(sorry for the funky emoticon, I just want to be sure that rogo knows I'm trying to be seethingly complimentary)"

Rogo is hereby not the least bit offended. :D

Is the lamp the primary source of color variation from machine-to-machine? As the lamp ages, would the projector "go out of tune"? Also, when the lamp is replaced, the projector would need a new tune-up?

Different question: should a projector be run on a UPS to avoid rapid power cycling in event of a power failure? I saw in the RPTV forum that many recommended running digital RPTV's with lamps on a UPS to prevent premature lamp failure due to power fluctuations.

HMenke,

I think it couldn't hurt. And it definately has it's benefits. I'm acutally going to pick up a UPS today, as my 700 should arrive tomorrow!!

KongFan,

I am in the same boat...after buying the AE700 and ordering a DirecTV HD receiver I need to save some $$$ and build my own screen. I have received alot of very helpful ideas/information from the DIY Screens area of the forum. I'm hoping to see some fellow AE700 posters in there so I can get an idea of what others are using with this PJ.

So far it sounds like most user reviews disagree with the comments on projector central about poor scaling within the AE700 for 480i or 480p sources. Is this a fair statement? Any owners agree with projector central?

reap

Well, since its being presumed that unit-to-unit production on the AE700 is going to be so widely varied in natural color output as to make the specific filters used in the Cine4home calibration moot, then its going to be difficult to even calibrate unless one has their own calibration equipment and can afford a gross-worth of filters so as to calibrate in a timely manner.

While I was thinking of renting Colofacts to calibrate the projector, trying to calibrate video mode, determine the weaknesses & strengths, order filters, re-cablrate, and repeat process can take more than the Colorfacts rental.

Its like needing prescription eyewear while assigning the task of finding a needle in a haystack, but the eyewear is rented on the hourly basis. Without a good starting point its moot information. Maybe someone will buy some of these AE700's at wholesale pricing, calibrate them much like William Phelps offers a good service?

Approxiamately, how much would appropriate filters actually cost?

I must correct a previously reported test:

Originally posted by GKMad
PS2 connected via component. First I played SOCOM II in 480i. There are definitely details within the shadows, but the overall brightness was lacking slightly, though I attribute that to the white wall and 120” diagonal. Then I kicked SOCOM into 480p. UGH the first flaw of the 700… VB was horrid! There are 15-20 “jail bars” through the whole image. It’s not like I have to imagine it’s there, because it’s so obvious that it’s unusable. I’ll just have to play SOCOM in 480i from now on. Which, BTW, is fine as I could see no de-interlacing artifacts.

So 480p on the PS2’s socom2 was the only source so far to show VB. Xbox 480p did not show any. I’ll have to test more PS2 480p sources, as well as connect an HDTV receiver and try it with 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i modes. I’ll try it with 480i and 480p DVD too


The next night I connected my second PS2 and loaded SOCOM2 in 480p again. This time there was NO VB at all. I conclude there was something wrong with my first PS2 or component cable used.

I also plugged in the 480p DVD player and verified no vb. 720p and 1080i cable box also no vb. Just a beautiful picture! Life is good!

Originally posted by dakyman
Approxiamately, how much would appropriate filters actually cost?
Well, that's the mystery. One could spend $10-200/filter depending on the quality and characteristics of the given filter. Now, multiply that by having to buy many, many filters in order to come up with the right combination.

I'd imagine the minimal I'd be spending is at least $80-100, but being a pessemist its probably closer to $200. What you would spend is anyone's guess, because you have to know what your particular unit's strengths and weaknesses are.

Alan (Gougar) posted a couple of weeks back a filter sample set he found for $80. Don't know if this is a better option, and do not know of the quality, but I di know they are not screw-on (threaded) filters, but in plate-form.

GKMad, I never considered that the source could be a culprit in the VB field. I wonder if this is due to video voltage signals.

Just a thought:

It sounds like the pre-release units that went out to reviewers had some VB, as most early reviews mentioned some limited VB. But it seems that EVERYONE we've heard from who got a retail production unit has seen none. Is it possible that Pannasonic made some last minute production fix? Or that they are doing or have automated the flicker tweak on the current batch or retail units? Maybe going the extra mile early on to generate a favorable buzz?

Sorry, I didn't realize that the unit GKMad was testing was a pre-release unit. My bad.

Someone above queried re 700 sharpness, when using the 700's built in scaler at 720 p. SHARP! As I posted a couple of days ago, Nils here in Austin provided a demo 700 which I hooked up to my system, and which four of us (with several decades of home theater experience amoung us) then observed and fiddled with. Re sharpness, that is one of the reasons I'm sold on this projector over my present Sony 10HT. Now, on the face of it, that may not be saying much. But my Sony is well focused (yes, with binoculars) and well signal delivered. But the Sony muddies up AVIA's highest frequency lines, while the Panasonic 700 shows every one in sharp detail! This is with both projectors on the same screen, with signal delivered over the same component cables, with the same DVDO IScan Pro handling the de-interlacing, and with the signal played from the same Sony DVD 7000! And all of the movie clips we watched also demonstrated that the Panasonic picture was discernably sharper than the Sony.

I wrote an extensive review of this the other evening when we ran this demo, but my original post was wiped out after spell check, and I all but gave up on it.

The 700 I'm referring to is the same unit which Jonathan so well described in a post two or three pages back.

We put the picture up on a 110 inch Firehawk and tried it out with both the Panasonic and Sony projectors, and fed with the Sony 7000 DVD player, a cheap Toshiba unit, and a Zenith that Jonathan referred to in his post. By the way, the 3 1/2 year Sony 10 HT is on its second bulb, and has been tweaked with Smart II and a filter. Both projectors were tweaked with AVIA.

We all agreed that the 700 showed better color fidelity and sharpness (even with tweaking of Gamma, my Sony shows green in the shadows). The 700 appeared brighter and with very slightly better black (gray!) level than the Sony, but we did not take any objective way of measuring this. After viewing the Panasonic 700 on my Firehawk and several other white screens, Nils comments that the 700 black levels appear to benefit from the Firehawk.

As Jonathan (above) has indicated, there was NO vertical banding. The scaling appeared to be first rate from the 480 p output from the DVDO IScan Pro. We watched about the same demo movies that Jonathan noted, to get a view on color and motion appearance. Pans appeared ok, and no worse than the typical jitter caused by the film's 24 frames per second.

After watching this unit, I am definitely sold on it and am letting stand my order with Visual Apex, with the hopes that the unit I receive does not show the defects mentioned on the now notorious Projector Central Reviewer Posts! By the way, in the interests of not loosing this post, no Spell Check has been run.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Sorry, I didn't realize that the unit GKMad was testing was a pre-release unit. My bad.

I have no idea, but I thought GK just said he didn't have VB problems after all, at least not that he would attribute to the pj

Originally posted by taylor34
I saw that one person above had problems with banding on his ps2 in 480p. Could some other gamers that got this projector verify this? If it's just the ps2 480p output I could live with it, but if the gamecube and xbox 480p output was banded too that would be a major drawback to me (although I saw above that he didn't see banding from his xbox--just would like some others verification on this). Thanks

Taylor34

That was me that posted it. The next night I used a second PS2 (newer generation?) with a different component adapter cable, and this time there was no vb at all. I'm not yet sure what caused the original problem. (That naughty PS2 was downgraded to the 36" tube... that'll teach it not to act up anymore)

Tested and working great (no vb), all over component: xbox 480i 480p 720p, ps2 480i 480p, dvd 480p, hdcable 720p, 1080i, PC 720p 1080i.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Well, that's the mystery. One could spend $10-200/filter depending on the quality and characteristics of the given filter. Now, multiply that by having to buy many, many filters in order to come up with the right combination.

I will bet that the SMART III system will provide for the AE700 once it is in general distribution. With the money save on this PJ it might be worth the investment to the home tweaker. Certainly worth a look (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/).There are a few hereabouts who might attest to its efficacy.

ted

Sonyuser:

The continuing favorable observations of the VB and upscaling issues will help those of us still awaiting our 700s to chill, and stop sweating the fixes for problems we haven't even seen yet.

The screen observations help too.

Thanks!

KongFan

Where are the screenshots? Gimmie some Nemo, LOTR (for flesh tones), and others to look at from ppl who have the pj up and running.

Originally posted by KongFan
Sonyuser:

The continuing favorable observations of the VB and upscaling issues will help those of us still awaiting our 700s to chill, and stop sweating the fixes for problems we haven't even seen yet.

The screen observations help too.

Thanks!

KongFan

Originally posted by KongFan
Sonyuser:

The continuing favorable observations of the VB and upscaling issues will help those of us still awaiting our 700s to chill, and stop sweating the fixes for problems we haven't even seen yet.

The screen observations help too.

Thanks!

KongFan

Ditto! I really mean this! I haven't even ordered mine yet and I was shitting my pants.
Understand that I started my cinema with the intention of using a Benq 6100! I quickly found out that this was not going to be for me. Since then I have passed through the Z1 and 6200, the TX100 and the Panasonic 500.

Please, I need some closure on this! The Theater must go on! Tell me only good things of the 700!!!!

(Just kiddding to release pent up preasure, honesty is ALWAYS the best policy.)

I have a theory about VB. I have heard of many people who see VB in the Panny 500s and now the 700s. I have only seen a twinge of it once. It was watching hdnet soccor on a 30 foot vga cable. Since then I have been using a 15 foot cable. I also have a 15 foot DVI cable. I never see it anymore. I think maybe there is a lot more to VB than the projector. I think LCD projectors will show VB while DLP will not. It still can be a function of the source or cabling. I am lucky enough to be able to have short cable runs to my projector. Most people can't do this. I think we need a true experiment to prove this theory....

A minute ago there were 53 pages, now only 18. Computer glitch? Deletions? Devisions? Am I on the wrong thread? Twilight Zone?
Steve

Maybe its how you setup your account on AVS. I have such that it shows the most posts/page, thus I get only 18-pages for 1062 posts.

Originally posted by Jonathan DA
Thanks to Nils, I was able to demo the AE700 last night with some friends. For the record, up until this latest crop of DLP projectors, I have been a die hard CRT projector hold-out, though I've been evaluating digitals for the last few years waiting for the price/performance combination to make it worth switching. The set up was a light controlled HT with a 103" diagonal Da Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision (HCCV) tensioned screen with four-way black velvet masking. The front row where I did all my viewing was about 1.3 width vs. distance from the screen. The AE700 was table mounted about 2 feet to right of my head and a foot below ear level. The sources used were a Zenith 318DB outputting upscaled 1080i/720p and 480p all over component. We also used an old Panasonic A120 for 480i. The pj was recalibrated using Avia for each dvd player. Unfortunately we didn't have any calibration tool aside from Avia available last night.

Initial setup:
Cine4home recommended the Natural setting with a color temp of -1 for their review sample. Not having a color analyzer handy, we cycled thru the different settings with our sample and decided that ours looked best with the "Normal" setting and color temp of -1. This could be unit to unit variations, the different screen, or that we're crazy. Take your pick. We started the Avia calibration from this setting. I don't recall the exact settings we settled at for each player, but all the basic picture settings do need some adjusting out of the box. Once we were finished the pj was producing a nice vibrant picture, with a very slight black crush on the cross grayscale step pattern in Avia.

First Impressions:
VB: Let's just get this out of the way first--THERE WAS NO VERTICAL BANDING ON OUR UNIT. At all. Period. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. Nothin. Trust me, I looked everywhere for it! If you play Master and Commander, the ship shots in the fog at the beginning of chapter 3 will make VB readily apparent on any projector that has it. There was none on the 700, while the 500 was displaying a horrible case of it. The closest I could come to it on the 700 was a vague impression that maybe (MAYBE) I could pick up some very slight fixed pattern noise. But then I'd blink and lose it. So I'm almost convinced it was my anti-LCD imagination hard at work.

SDE: Panasonic has really improved their smoothscreen technology this year. Even at a 1.3 viewing distance there was no screen door effect visible and no peak-a-boo scanline effect anymore. I saw the scanlines on the L300 at 1.6x and on the L500 occasionally at 1.3x. I didn't see it at all on the 700 at 1.3x. On the L500 I could still see screendoor at 1.3x. (I know people will say this isn't possible given the raves that the smoothscreen tech got on the L500, but I have 20/15 corrected vision and am used to watching a CRT with 100% fill factor). On the AE700 I couldn't see any screendoor effect at 1.3x.

Pixelation: I want to call this out as being separate from SDE, a distinction I don't see made much anymore. SDE is visibility of the interpixel gaps (black or gray lines) between pixels on the panel. Pixelation is the visibility of the squareness of the pixels. Pixelation is a function of both the technology (LCOS shows less pixelation than LCD) and the resolution of the panels (higher res panels have more dots per inch thus the eye has a harder time picking out the shape of the individual pixel). The pixelation evident on the AE700 was relatively low, probably due in large part the smoothscreen combined with the native 720p res. When connected to the Zenith 318 there was more pixelation evident at all resolutions (480p/720p/1080i) than when connected to the Panasonic A120 at 480i. However, the image was sharper with the Zenith. The A120 produced a slightly softer image, probably due to the AE700's internal deinterlacer and scaler. Which brings us to…

Deinterlacing and Scaling: We used a few movies, including Once Upon A Time in the West, Fight Club, Return of the Jedi, and Toy Story 2. As I mentioned above, with the A120 we were utilizing the projector's deinterlacer and scaler. I thought the image was a tad soft, but still very enjoyable. In fact, I preferred the A120's image to the Zenith's image on any setting (see my DVD player comments below). I didn't notice any jaggies or tearing on any of the movies. I think this is very good performance for a non DCDi solution.

Contrast, Color: Great colors, great contrast! I am not a huge contrast junkie. I've found that anything around 1000:1 or greater is satisfying for me as long as the color accuracy is, well, accurate. Even without individual gain adjustments, I found the colors and contrast to be very good, but…

Absolute Black Level and the Dynamic Iris: I may not be a huge contrast junkie, but I am a spoiled CRT owner and absolute black level is very important to me. As such, the AE700 has the best LCD black levels I've seen with the iris engaged. Without the iris the black levels are around the L500 level, which I considered unacceptable. The iris is an absolute must for movie watching. As is masking. Even with all that, I still found the black level lacking, but for 90% of the population it is probably good enough.

Fan Noise: Total non issue in either bulb mode; this is the quietest pj I've ever heard. Quieter than the Immersive Virtuoso I'd guess without having them side by side.

Overall: Simply a great entry level projector. I'd recommend a gray screen to help with the black levels, and I wouldn't pair it with a Zenith 318DB. Try to get an older Panasonic player with DCDi if you're going to use the component inputs, or go with one of the new HDMI scaling players.

A comment about the DVD players. I've watched a couple movies on the Zenith/L500 combo before, but last night was my first chance to really compare the Zenith to another player (albeit an obsolete model). After comparing the A120 and 318DB, I am a bit surprised at how many good reviews the Zenith has received. Our player had a green push that we couldn't get rid of and it added edge enhancement to everything on all settings. The sharpness setting was turned all the way down on the AE700 and the edge enhancement was not visible when using the A120. Has anyone else experienced this? The Zenith produce superior blacks compared to the A120 on its Darker setting.

That's all I have, I hope this mini-review helps some of you decide if this is the projector for you.

I've read your 700 review several times and there is really a lot of good information there. I’m very excited about the lens shift, dynamic iris and “quiet” fan (even on high-bulb mode). I have a 700 on order from VA. Hope to have it within 2 weeks.
Just a quick question regarding the lack of VB on the 700 you tested. I know you tested fog scenes. My 500 does really well on fog scenes too. But did you test any underwater scenes (Finding nemo, Das Boot, U-571) or the Tatoonie sand dunes scene from the new Star wars DVD? Or how about one of the more infamous VB scenes which is the large space ship landing on the pod (w/l-o-n-g camera pan) just before it explodes - on Attack of The Clones? Just curious. 95% of the DVD’s I’ve viewed on my 500 have no VB. But these specific titles were troublesome. These are the first scenes I’ll be testing when my 700 arrives (my fingers will be crossed).

That's probably the answer. Just curious that one minute I see 53 pages and the next, 18 pages...same computer. No changes made to settings?

Now back to the real subject at hand. I have preordered the AE700 and my brother will be getting my old AE300. I will take great joy in using a large hammer to "fix" my problematic/out of warrantee/now worthless Bravo D1. Now I just need the new Samsung or Panny DVD player to start shipping.

Originally posted by jasallen
Just a thought:

It sounds like the pre-release units that went out to reviewers had some VB, as most early reviews mentioned some limited VB. But it seems that EVERYONE we've heard from who got a retail production unit has seen none. Is it possible that Pannasonic made some last minute production fix? Or that they are doing or have automated the flicker tweak on the current batch or retail units? Maybe going the extra mile early on to generate a favorable buzz? I think you left out another important probability - inaccurate observations.

The AE700 I have is one of the ten pre-release demo units that were sent to North America and has shown absolutely no VB even when displaying the most demanding test patterns and video samples.

Without actually seeing a unit that was being reported as having VB I can not say for sure, but I suspect either they were feeding it a signal from a source that was creating an artifact that they attributed to VB, or like the reviews from "anonymous" reviewers like those on Projector Central perhaps they have not even seen the AE700 and have alternative motives? It certainly would not be the first time someone has made erroneous reviews of a projector (with or without intent).


As a follow-up to my earlier post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4494523#post4494523), I’ll be OOP for the next few days, but when I get back next week I will again arrange some more demos at my fellow Austin HT Group (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208057) HT rooms. I’ll do my best to record all the different set-ups. For those that emailed me I will try and either arrange for a time where by I can bring the projector over to you to see how it might look on your system – or arrange for you to be able to attend one of the other demos, assuming the host gives their OK.

For those not in the Austin area, feel free to drop me an email (THX1138@austin.rr.com) if there are any specific things you would like checked out. If during one of the demos we have the necessary equipment I will be more than willing to run those tests and let you know what the results were.


Nils Luehrmann

BTW: I will be in Houston over the weekend for the annual Wings Over Houston Airshow (http://www.wingsoverhouston.com). I was planning on taking the AE700 with me in the event Mr.Wigggles was interested in playing around with it, but if we are unable to coordinate our schedules I could possibly swing it by someone’s HT in Houston for those who are interested in checking it out. If you are in Houston and are interested feel free to email me, and I’ll do what I can to try and accommodate you.

About color deviation: I just tuned a PT700 of a customer. While still a red-filter, this machine needed a complete other filter than the previous PT700 I made...

Regards,
Ekkehat, www.cine4home.de

bummer news for those of us that aren't in DE to make use of your services, but thanks for the update cine4.

Curious, what size filter does the AE700 take? Are there actual threads on the lens assy to take a standard filter of size? Ekkehat, thanks for the information and I really appreciate the work you have done on cine4home in terms of tuning and full tear-down investigation of projectors.

Originally posted by Cine4Home
About color deviation: I just tuned a PT700 of a customer. While still a red-filter, this machine needed a complete other filter than the previous PT700 I made...

Regards,
Ekkehat, www.cine4home.de

Ekkehat

Does this new 700 reach 2000:1 CR and 18% more brightness when calibrated?

Nacho.

If a few Toronto and/or GTA LCD PJ owners wanted to get together on a colorfacts or smart purchase, it is an option some of us should consider. I would like to know what steps you take in order to calibrate and max out an LCD PJ with filters. Using Colorfacts or Smart II/III. Do you need color filters to look through? A colour or light meter? Is that what comes with either of the colorfacts or Smart packages? Is AVIA or DVE used in addition to these packages? I guess they can work together.

The fact that scaling is appearing to look good is a positive thing.

As far as vertical banding is concerned, I will say this:

I never saw vertical banding on my AE100 (bought with 145 hours) and I put 280 hours on it for a total of approx 425 hours. When I first had my L200 (bought used at 95 hours) I did not see it either. After owning and using my L200 for less than 100 hours, I soon saw vertical banding. Sometimes its not there upon start-up and I don't see it at all, but often times during a long movie it can rear its ugly head (2 to 3 hour movie). Sure enough, when this happens and I check the flicker, it sometimes needs slight adjustment. Its not horrible on the L200. I've not seen it on other lcd projectors.

While I think it is good that we are hearing that units do not have bad vertical banding, and some say they see no vertical banding, it is possible that it may appear later, although if you don't see it now, it is less likely to suddenly appear and be horrible. Vertical Banding may become much less of an issue with the AE700. This potential is great.

While the potential for vertical banding free AE700's is a very promising thing, I am still concerned about other issues and would love to hear feedback:

1) Colour uniformity, especially in lower brightness areas of the picture. While often good out of the box, this has proven to become poor over time for many Panasonic and Sanyo LCD projector owners.

2) Peak-a-boo vertical motion artifacts. Could someone comment on this? On my L200, I see these sometimes and its annoying. While watching the movie "Sunshine", I tried to follow the action of the fencing. Many times the motion detail of the quickly moving actors was lost to peak-a-boo vertical motion artifacts. For me, the picture loses its sharpness and smooth detail in small localized areas and for a brief moment it looks like low-resolution scanlines.

3) Keep the sharpness reviews coming. I am still not completely sold on the smooth screen technology and I truly believe that it would be interesting to see a 500 or 700 without smooth screen. I still suspect that a slight defocus wouldn't be any less sharp than smooth screen, while reducing screen door effect. Hitachi PJ TX100 and Z2 owners have found that slight defocus is all thats needed to eliminate sde. So keep up with the sharpness feedback. Its also helpfull for people to comment on the scaling. This sounds quite promising with the 700. I would disregard the projector central comments for now. Perhaps cine4home will comment on scaling in their review :)

Keep the feedback coming. I'm seriously considering the AE700 as an upgrade from my L200. I take it that I would see significant picture quality improvement, especially in terms of contrast, but having lived with a 480p image fed to a 480p projector, I'm still blown away at the incredible detail sharpness of the L200, especially in facial close-ups. If there is any lost detail or softness in the AE700 vs my slightly defocussed L200, I won't be as thrilled to take the leap. I feed my L200 VGA via an iScan Ultra.

Also, if anyone has an iScan Ultra, could they try feeding the AE700 with a 480p DVI signal?

thanx everyone here for the very useful feedback,

Chris

:)

Originally posted by cpc
If a few Toronto and/or GTA LCD PJ owners wanted to get together on a colorfacts or smart purchase, it is an option some of us should consider. I would like to know what steps you take in order to calibrate and max out an LCD PJ with filters. Using Colorfacts or Smart II/III. Do you need color filters to look through? A colour or light meter? Is that what comes with either of the colorfacts or Smart packages? Is AVIA or DVE used in addition to these packages? I guess they can work together.

Chris

:)

Chris,
Have you checked the SMART website (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/index.html) ?
This page (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/dummies3.html) is a good overview of how it works and here is the products page. (http://www.enhancedht.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=EHT&Category_Code=S)

Hope it helps - I'm in T>O. in case you didn't look. We could talk when the time is right.

ted

About color deviation: I just tuned a PT700 of a customer. While still a red-filter, this machine needed a complete other filter than the previous PT700 I made...

Which leads me ask, if we don't use the exact filter for our projector will we come close by using another "similar" filter? If we get a filter that is pretty close to the cine4home perfect filter then can I assume that I will get something close to the CR with minor color inaccuracies? Or do best filters among a line of projectors vary so much that using say a perfect pink filter on one projector will yield ghastly results on another same model unit that needs a slightly red-orange filter for a perfect picture and CR? Perhaps this has been covered a thousand times but if we centered on say a CC40R (or whichever filter)generally works well for said projector then we could at least approximate the results cine4home is getting after his optimization. If I could hit something over say 1600:1 for a few bucks I'd take that rather than fighting my way to get that perfect 2000+:1.

Originally posted by Radsman
I will take great joy in using a large hammer to "fix" my problematic/out of warrantee/now worthless Bravo D1.

Just in case your not kidding, please have an assistant take a picture or two of this action and post them. :)

Cool. Thanx tvted. I'll chat to you via pm and email. I'll check out those links.

Also, I was wondering about black level, if you take the AE700 and max out the calibtration of a specific unit and reach a very high contrast ratio, close to or approaching the 2000:1 mark using a colour filter etc, and you are still not happy with black level, wouldn't the high contrast ratio afford you the ability to simply apply a neutral density filter to loer the black levels? Or in people's experience, is this un-necessary or detrimental in some way??

cpc:

I would like to know what steps you take in order to calibrate and max out an LCD PJ with filters. Using Colorfacts or Smart II/III. Do you need color filters to look through? A colour or light meter? Is that what comes with either of the colorfacts or Smart packages? Is AVIA or DVE used in addition to these packages? I guess they can work together.

I reviewed both SMART and ColorFacts some time ago. I think this will answer all of your questions.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tlhuffman/ht/main/index.htm

Originally posted by zxlr8
I think maybe there is a lot more to VB than the projector. I think LCD projectors will show VB while DLP will not. It still can be a function of the source or cabling. I am lucky enough to be able to have short cable runs to my projector. Most people can't do this. I think we need a true experiment to prove this theory....

This is certainly true. I think that we should have an "official VB thread", just as there is an official thread for rainbows.

I have a friend with a rear projection TV with extreme VB problems whenever he watched cable. His theory was that the ground wire for his house wiring was different than the ground for the cable signal. So, he clipped the grounding prong off the ac plug (not a very safe thing to do), and suddenly, his picture was great.

I've seen many posts where people talk about "dirty power". Some people say that it's worth buying a $70 power strip with regulation in it, and then plug both your DVD player and the projector into the same power strip.

For those people who have had VB problems with the 700, were you using a clean power supply for the DVD player and projector?

SMART III sounds like a good tool. I read the FAQ on the website linked above, but I'm unclear on how to use SMART with a gray screen.

I have the Dalite HCCV. Is the procedure for using SMART any different when using a gray screen? Thx,

DE

the Tatoonie sand dunes scene from the new Star wars DVD

We watched the Star Wars (ep 6 I think) scene where Luke is about to be thrown into the pit with the sand monster (which Nils noted now looks like the monster from Little Shop of Horrors after the CGI "enhancements"). On the scenes where they pan across the dunes there is no VB at all.

On the L500, I discovered you could make the VB much worse by using an HTPC on the VGA input as compared to a standalone dvd player on the component input. I just ordered a new pc today to replace my current aging HTPC. Once I get it all set up, I hope to test an AE700 over the VGA and HDMI inputs to see if it draws out any VB. If it remains VB free, I'll probably buy one.

Originally posted by dedwards
Is the procedure for using SMART any different when using a gray screen? Thx,

DE

Nope, it is not screen dependant as you take measurements with the light meter facing the projector, not the screen.

Originally posted by JDLIVE
Nope, it is not screen dependant as you take measurements with the light meter facing the projector, not the screen.

OK - but wouldn't the coloration of the screen affect the final result?

I thought that was implied in the SMART FAQ, but it wasn't very clear to me.

Obviously I'm clueless about this - just trying to gain some understanding....

DE

Just curious, has anyone replaced an Infocus X1 with the AE700 or seen them side by side? I am wondering how much of a jump or lack thereof I would be making. They are both comparable in printed specs (I understand that doesn't mean much) except for resolution. What do you guys think?

thanks,

lordsiris

Originally posted by SingleA
This is certainly true. I think that we should have an "official VB thread", just as there is an official thread for rainbows.

I have a friend with a rear projection TV with extreme VB problems whenever he watched cable. His theory was that the ground wire for his house wiring was different than the ground for the cable signal. So, he clipped the grounding prong off the ac plug (not a very safe thing to do), and suddenly, his picture was great.

I've seen many posts where people talk about "dirty power". Some people say that it's worth buying a $70 power strip with regulation in it, and then plug both your DVD player and the projector into the same power strip.

For those people who have had VB problems with the 700, were you using a clean power supply for the DVD player and projector?

Interesting observation. I always knew that clean power helps with audio, but haven't tried to use it to improve video. Though I probably wouldn't go to the extreme to taking out the grounding prong, :D

Can anyone with electronics experience explain why this may cause VB in a LCD front PJ? If this is the fix all along, then we might have a good fix for this dreaded problem.

Originally posted by lordsiris
Just curious, has anyone replaced an Infocus X1 with the AE700 or seen them side by side? I am wondering how much of a jump or lack thereof I would be making. They are both comparable in printed specs (I understand that doesn't mean much) except for resolution. What do you guys think?

thanks,

lordsiris

X1=entry level 800x600 DLP native 4:3 with bad rainbow issues.
The AE700 is a 1280x720 native 16:9 LCD.

I don't think they are "comparable in printed specs", but to each his own I guess. Do they have similar brightness and contrast or something? I certainly hope one could easily tell the difference between these projectors.

Originally posted by dedwards
OK - but wouldn't the coloration of the screen affect the final result?
DE

A properly made grey screen shouldn't have any "colour" bias so should not affect the primaries. It would have a negative gain thereby reducing the lumens from the screen but this would impact the greyscale of your PJ uniformly.

ted

Originally posted by lordsiris
Just curious, has anyone replaced an Infocus X1 with the AE700 or seen them side by side? I am wondering how much of a jump or lack thereof I would be making. They are both comparable in printed specs (I understand that doesn't mean much) except for resolution. What do you guys think?

thanks,

lordsiris

Originally posted by TraderGordo
X1=entry level 800x600 DLP native 4:3 with bad rainbow issues.
The AE700 is a 1280x720 native 16:9 LCD.

I don't think they are "comparable in printed specs", but to each his own I guess. Do they have similar brightness and contrast or something? I certainly hope one could easily tell the difference between these projectors.

You mean to tell me the AE700 is a 1280x720 native 16:9 LCD device? Anyway yes the X1 and AE700 are similar in brightness/contrast specs, what I was really looking for is a comparison of the black levels and brightness between the X1 and AE700. The AE700 has been compared against other projectors in the previous 50+ pages, but I was hoping for someone that had done so with the X1 since that is what I currently have and am looking to replace. Not seeing or able to see the other projectors run (living in Italy) I was looking for someone in my similar situation. I initially bought the X1 because of the DLP tech and price vs performance, but now I am ready to spend more and increase the resolution, reduce fan noise and have a digital input. I guess my concern is moving backwards from DLP tech to LCD.

Originally posted by SingleA
This is certainly true. I think that we should have an "official VB thread", just as there is an official thread for rainbows.

I have a friend with a rear projection TV with extreme VB problems whenever he watched cable. His theory was that the ground wire for his house wiring was different than the ground for the cable signal. So, he clipped the grounding prong off the ac plug (not a very safe thing to do), and suddenly, his picture was great.

I've seen many posts where people talk about "dirty power". Some people say that it's worth buying a $70 power strip with regulation in it, and then plug both your DVD player and the projector into the same power strip.

For those people who have had VB problems with the 700, were you using a clean power supply for the DVD player and projector?

I've been thinking about this too. Once I get my AE700 (hopefully in the next week or so) I'll try it with and without power conditioning. At the same time it would be interesting if someone with an AE500 with bad VB came over so that we can see if we can get rid of the VB problem with clean power. I have a an ExactPower EP-15A that has totally removed all background AC hum from my audio.

I just picked up a UPS today for my AE700 which comes TOMORROW! Anyway, I saw all taht Monster Cable clean power stuff...does that really work? 80 bucks is a lot to drop on something like that that may be superficial.

This could really take us off topic but the short answer is that most of the power conditioning products on the market are designed in such a way that the power regulation is FAR too slow to react. Most of these devices take as long as a 1/4 second to correct the voltage. The only product that I know of that corrects (level and THD) the AC line in real time (even high frequency distortion) is the ExactPower EP-15A.

Originally posted by Najeeb
This could really take us off topic but the short answer is that most of the power conditioning products on the market are designed in such a way that the power regulation is FAR too slow to react. Most of these devices take as long as a 1/4 second to correct the voltage. The only product that I know of that corrects (level and THD) the AC line in real time (even high frequency distortion) is the ExactPower EP-15A.

But probably for a fraction of the price you can get a UPS which gives you the ultimate protection. For a limited time you can get a Belkin UPS for just $20
link (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=374275&highlight_key=y&keyword1=ups)

Originally posted by TraderGordo
But probably for a fraction of the price you can get a UPS which gives you the ultimate protection. For a limited time you can get a Belkin UPS for just $20
link (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=374275&highlight_key=y&keyword1=ups)

Unfortunately, the output from most UPS systems is very distorted. It's a rough approximation of a 120V 60Hz AC signal - most of the time it actually adds high frequency distortion due to the stair-stepped nature of its output.

Originally posted by cpc
Cool. Thanx tvted. I'll chat to you via pm and email. I'll check out those links.

Also, I was wondering about black level, if you take the AE700 and max out the calibtration of a specific unit and reach a very high contrast ratio, close to or approaching the 2000:1 mark using a colour filter etc, and you are still not happy with black level, wouldn't the high contrast ratio afford you the ability to simply apply a neutral density filter to loer the black levels? Or in people's experience, is this un-necessary or detrimental in some way??
Yes, but you may want to use ND filters with something else than halving-values of transmission. OptoSigma has some that range from 0.1 to 99% transmissions. These are what I like, but I have not yet determined if they can be had in the filter size needed for the AE700.

I would think ND filtration should be done post-calibration for maximum CR.

I can attest to the fact that the EP-15A can have a positive effect on video as well as audio, at least with MY system on MY RPTV. MY eyes could detect less video noise in solid color areas, which was an unexpected surprise. I don't mean to emphasize "MY" so much, but I know that some people have not have the same reaction or are very skeptical. I think my house had pretty poor AC, so I may have had more of a pre-existing problem. Anyway, yes, the EP-15A is expensive (I paid $1200 lightly used), but it provides good security against transient undervoltages, and combines with a Brickwall, is about the best protection you can get. Plus, it can reduce audio and video noise, depending on your system and home...

I am really interested in the AE700 as my first projector. I am confused that this projector is not able to produce its native resolution at more than 60Hz. Wouldn't Film material look much better at 72Hz and wouldn't PAL content look much better at 75Hz?
I am used to the higher the refresh rate, the less headache I get. Should I just forget about this when looking at LCD projectors?
Thanks, Thomas

Agreed about the neutral density filters. I would want to toy with them until I found one that gave just the right black level. Perhaps there isn't a whole lot to be gained seeing as how there is the Dynamic Iris, but its still possible that reducing a bit more light could bring black levels of the AE700 to a brand new low for lcd projectors.

As far as vertical banding is concerned, I also think a new thread could be started. I recall an AVS member on here refering to the way in which each LCD is energized, and that they cannot be continuously energized with the same polarity, and therefore, there is a constant flipping of the polarity of the voltage to each lcd pixel. I can't remember the rate. As I mentioned, one thing I hate is peak-a-boo vertical motion artifacts. I think this continuous cycling of voltage polarity flipping in the lcd projector's lcd panel may have something to do with the peak-a-boo's. They are somewhat of an optical illusion in that they aren't always repeatable. Rewinding a scene and replaying doesn't always reproduce the same effect. Some scenes are full of them. With a relatively small object on the screen moving vertically, it looks poor. I wonder if there is any difference from dvd to dvd. Sometimes I suspect that when I see peka-a-boo's, it could be that the effect is worsened when the dvd has low resolution and overall lower colour information and pixel detail in that area of the screen on the dvd I'm looking at.

How are peka-a-boo's with this projector? Are they bothering anyone?

I wonder if the AE700 is really going to be the new king. Is it possible that it will beat the Epson500/Yam510?

Ekkehart,

Did you see any peak-a-boo's with the AE700?

Hi,

I have a question for someone who owns the 700. If you adjust the lens shift vertically and then zoom in and out. Does it zoom evenly about the center of the picture or the center of the lens?

Any impressions that anyone who has objective or subjective comparisons to any of the HD2+ DLP (H77 would be perfect) units please post.

I want to try and get an idea if this unit is really competitve with those units or is only competitive when you take its price into account.

John

Originally posted by Expletive
Any impressions that anyone who has objective or subjective comparisons to any of the HD2+ DLP (H77 would be perfect) units please post. Good timing as I just got off the phone with one of our local HTers who has a very large dedicated HT with a BenQ8700+ and a 110" Vutec SilverStar screen, and uses both a Sony 999 player and a Bravo D2.

I'll be arranging to bring over the AE700 Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday evening of next week. He said he would be willing to have others over for those interested in the comparison and evaluation of the AE700. I'll post a restricted invite in one of the Austin HT Group (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208057) threads once the details are worked out.


Nils Luehrmann

Originally posted by AustinTexas
Good timing as I just got off the phone with one of our local HTers who has a very large dedicated HT with a BenQ8700+ and a 110" Vutec SilverStar screen, and uses both a Sony 999 player and a Bravo D2.

I'll be arranging to bring over the AE700 Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday evening of next week. He said he would be willing to have others over for those interested in the comparison and evaluation of the AE700. I'll post a restricted invite in one of the Austin HT Group (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208057) threads once the details are worked out.


Nils Luehrmann

Great news!


John

P.S. Push for Tuesday... :D

I've been browsing the Operating Instructions I downloaded a couple of weeks ago for the AE700 and am not sure about the compatibility of this PJ with a 1080i input via HDMI and the resultant aspect ratio. I was looking at the LG DVB418 as a replacement for my D1. Clarification? Why is it refered to as "1125 (1080i)"?

Thanks
Steve

Originally posted by yipchunyu
anyone connect the ae700 to pc with the HDMI? I'm using ATI9600, just want to know is it ok to do so. Any comment is very much appreciated.

See Li On's post at

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=454262&perpage=20&highlight=ae700%2011&pagenumber=2


excerpt:

"From a DVI (HTPC) to HDMI (AE700) cable, select 1280x720 and there is a almost perfect picture. The AE700 sees the signal as a standard 720p input and share the same picture memory as the Pioneer 59avi HDMI 720p input."

I want an ae700 but unfortunately I just bought the L500u about 3 months ago. It's just to impractical to upgrade this early.

Originally posted by cpc
Agreed about the neutral density filters. I would want to toy with them until I found one that gave just the right black level. Perhaps there isn't a whole lot to be gained seeing as how there is the Dynamic Iris, but its still possible that reducing a bit more light could bring black levels of the AE700 to a brand new low for lcd projectors.

I have no idea why people mess around with ND filters. They reduce your white level in proportion to your black level. So now you have the same theoretical contrast level, but you have a dimmer image. If you have any ambient light at all, you have just decreased your actual installed contrast. As you sit in your cave-dark room, squinting at a faint image somewhere in front of you, you have only the consolation that you now have "great black level."

Take the ND filter to its logical conclusion. If you want the ultimate in black levels from your projector, just leave the lens cap on.

Also from Li On's post at
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=454262&perpage=20&highlight=ae700%2011&pagenumber=2

It appears the AE700 can't do 1:1 pixel mapping via DVI/HDMI by default. Li On's tests appear to indicate that the AE700 scales the DVI/HDMI input vertically about 1%.

This is simply ridiculous. The whole *point* of a DVi/HDMI connection is to achieve pixel perfect 1:1 mapping from the source automatically, no overscanning, no ifs, ands or buts. Each pixel in the 1280x720 source ought to be mapped to a pixel on the display.

Even a small amount of scaling (overscanning) will entirely defeat the purpose of the DVI input- achieving the maximum amount of detail and sharpness.

I wonder if the analog DB15 input will 1:1 pixel map (with phase/ sync/ pixel shift adjustments, of course) with zero overscan...

Crimony, my PLV60 does pixel perfect 1360x768 *or* 1280x720 no problem from a Radeon 9600 via a 10m DB15-DB15 analog RGB cable. Heck, even my first projector back in 1999, a Mits X100 600 lumen XGA beast with 10:1 contrast ratio could easily do 1:1 pixel mapping from any PC!

Perhaps there's a bug in the AE700 firmware?

RGB,

Li on says:
And the else image is in the correct 1:1 mapping by testing all the single pixel width pattern in the Nokia Monitor Test program.

I think you can do 1:1 pixel mapping and have overscan. All it means is that you may only be seeing 713 out of the 720 vertical pixels. It doesn't necessarily mean that the image is being scaled.

Originally posted by thatdreamer
I have no idea why people mess around with ND filters. They reduce your white level in proportion to your black level. So now you have the same theoretical contrast level, but you have a dimmer image. If you have any ambient light at all, you have just decreased your actual installed contrast. As you sit in your cave-dark room, squinting at a faint image somewhere in front of you, you have only the consolation that you now have "great black level."

Take the ND filter to its logical conclusion. If you want the ultimate in black levels from your projector, just leave the lens cap on.
If I take an LCD projector an display a 0-IRE full-field test pattern in a room with absolutle light control (which is how I watch things with projectors), I am betting what is measured is something above 0-IRE. It is th lowest the projector can get in blocking light, which is not 100%. Using ND filtration helps to block that light still making its way through the LCD panels when I want no light to come out of the lens assy.

You see, if the lowest black level from a projector is, say, equal to 5-IRE then that is a lot closer to crap than heaven to me. YMMV, but you should be having a problem with how others are usnig their projectors.

It seems to me that they just haven't adjusted Power Strip completely or the drivers are screwy. The pixel widths obviously would be correct as he said that all 1280 were there from after a sliding the H section. There has to be a way to then tweak the vertical(Admittedly low level experience with PS). Since he has adjusted the image with a vertical shift we need to then compress it vertically to get all the info on the screen(Possible? I Hope). If the source is 1280x720 and the panels have 1280x720 pixels then we should be able to squeeze all of that in there, thus 1:1. Remember, this is a first report on a test setup though I feel this needs to be addressed either by us or Panasonic if it is indeed an issue. No disrespect to Li-On or his skills because it's obvious he has contributed much to these forums.

I have a problem with either the reports/reviews or the people that take it to be gospel after one mention in a single post. Let's get several ATI cards with different drivers and several NVidia cards with different drivers reported before we jump to the conclusion that the projector doesn't display 1:1 pixel mapping. The PS2 report with the nasty VB was another wolf crying incident that sends the wrong message to people looking to purchase this projector(No offense to the poster but people start unnecessarilyfreaking out about Console gaming capabilities). You need to look at the common ground across all the reviews. Overall much less VB than AE500, better blacks(much better if filtered), better color reproduction, smoothscreen improvements, lens shift. Sounds to me like we have a contender . Again, we're still very early in the review/comparison process so let's keep our heads screwed on.

" The whole *point* of a DVi/HDMI connection is to achieve pixel perfect 1:1 mapping from the source automatically, no overscanning, no ifs, ands or buts. "

No it isn't. Thats certainly one point, but the all-digital connection is surely even more important than a precise mapping.

---------------------

"Take the ND filter to its logical conclusion. If you want the ultimate in black levels from your projector, just leave the lens cap on."

Uh huh, that's a logical statement. First, you correctly note that the contrast ratio stays the same. Then, you ridiculously suggest reducing contrast ratio to zero. I have tinted windows in my car; doesn't mean I want them opaque.

Mark

Originally posted by thatdreamer
Take the ND filter to its logical conclusion. If you want the ultimate in black levels from your projector, just leave the lens cap on.
As long as you are going to take the extremist game, why not go the other direction to? Are more ft-lamberts better? Are 100 ft-lamberts better than 50 ft-lamberts? Than 20? A lot of people would say no. In fact, one plasma company I heard about basically had the engineers increasing the ft-lamberts because nobody told them they had done enough and it was shown to them that bringing the whole thing down made lots of things look better.

The reason people use neutral density filters is because it can increase the image quality for them. With the sources and projectors we have, dimmer images can often look more realistic, since the artifacts in getting the movie or video from the source to your eyeballs can be less obvious. Some people can't see the artifacts and some don't care, but there are very good reasons for people to try dimming their images.

With the AE700 I would first recommend using a color filter to increase actual CR, then people could consider adding a neutral density filter or darker screen if they want.
Originally posted by rogo
I have tinted windows in my car; doesn't mean I want them opaque.

I see you pretty much beat me to this one. Good analogy. I find it interesting when people use an argument that going to one extreme is bad while completely ignoring that the other extreme is also bad. The middle ground is often a good place to be.

--Darin

Originally posted by burkheart
I am really interested in the AE700 as my first projector. I am confused that this projector is not able to produce its native resolution at more than 60Hz. Wouldn't Film material look much better at 72Hz and wouldn't PAL content look much better at 75Hz?
I am used to the higher the refresh rate, the less headache I get. Should I just forget about this when looking at LCD projectors?
Thanks, Thomas

Thomas, I also would like to know this. I yesterday tried a TX100 and it did not like 1280x720 from my PC via vga until I got the refresh rate down from 85 to 60 which is the lowest refresh rate on my video card. I can't look at my 21" CRT monitor at 60 which is why I set it at 85Hz
Can someone with more knowledge give us a clue pls?

Fixed pixel displays do not flicker like a crt. That is why 60Hz is just fine. You can not compare with a crt. They are different animals.

I can't speak to how film/PAL material looks at different refresh rates, but I think I have some crude understanding of the broader refresh issue. I'm certainly no engineer and I may have some of the particulars wrong, but bear with me here.

CRT monitors and LCD monitors display a moving image in entirely different ways. With CRT, a moving beam of energy is painted across the back side of the phosphors in the screen. The energy causes those phosphors to illuminate, and when the beam moves on, those phosphors subside and go back to black.

If the phosphors are not re-energized quickly enough, your brain can perceive the flicker produced by the phosphors emitting light, going to black, and then emitting again. Different people perceive flicker at different rates of refresh, but I believe that most people perceive a solid image at 85Hz. Some people can get away with lower refresh rates.

LCD is entirely different. As long as an LCD pixel is receiving current, it will display whatever it is told to, in a continuous rather than flickering fashion. The speed at which an LCD can change an image is typically measured in response time rather than refresh rate--although they basically amount to the same thing, an LCD's response time indicates how quickly a pixel can change to a different color, rather than how frequently it is repainted.

12ms is a pretty low response time for LCDs these days; 16 or 20ms is fairly common. 20ms corresponds to 50Hz, which would cause you godawful migraines on a CRT, but produces no such effect on an LCD, because there is no flicker, just a continuous image that is updated fifty times a second.

On the other hand, if an LCD has a very slow response time, you can end up seeing motion artifacts like "ghosting". This is why many hardcore gamers have not switched to LCD monitors--if you're running a game at 120 frames per second, but your monitor is only updating 50 times a second, you're wasting a lot of horsepower and potentially slowing your twitch response to whatever's going on in the game.

Hope that helps.

Originally posted by funkapus
I can't speak to how film/PAL material looks at different refresh rates, but I think I have some crude understanding of the broader refresh issue. I'm certainly no engineer and I may have some of the particulars wrong, but bear with me here.

CRT monitors and LCD monitors display a moving image in entirely different ways. With CRT, a moving beam of energy is painted across the back side of the phosphors in the screen. The energy causes those phosphors to illuminate, and when the beam moves on, those phosphors subside and go back to black.

If the phosphors are not re-energized quickly enough, your brain can perceive the flicker produced by the phosphors emitting light, going to black, and then emitting again. Different people perceive flicker at different rates of refresh, but I believe that most people perceive a solid image at 85Hz. Some people can get away with lower refresh rates.

LCD is entirely different. As long as an LCD pixel is receiving current, it will display whatever it is told to, in a continuous rather than flickering fashion. The speed at which an LCD can change an image is typically measured in response time rather than refresh rate--although they basically amount to the same thing, an LCD's response time indicates how quickly a pixel can change to a different color, rather than how frequently it is repainted.

12ms is a pretty low response time for LCDs these days; 16 or 20ms is fairly common. 20ms corresponds to 50Hz, which would cause you godawful migraines on a CRT, but produces no such effect on an LCD, because there is no flicker, just a continuous image that is updated fifty times a second.

On the other hand, if an LCD has a very slow response time, you can end up seeing motion artifacts like "ghosting". This is why many hardcore gamers have not switched to LCD monitors--if you're running a game at 120 frames per second, but your monitor is only updating 50 times a second, you're wasting a lot of horsepower and potentially slowing your twitch response to whatever's going on in the game.

Hope that helps.

wow, your explanation is very clear. thx

Originally posted by Rgb
" The whole *point* of a DVi/HDMI connection is to achieve pixel perfect 1:1 mapping from the source automatically, no overscanning, no ifs, ands or buts. "

No it isn't. Thats certainly one point, but the all-digital connection is surely even more important than a precise mapping.

Mark

Agreed. I guess I should have said "one of the big points of a DVI/HDMI connection"...

Another big point of the digital connection is as you imply, the avoidance of A/D/A conversions from the DVD surface to the LCD panel.

Originally posted by Borg
RGB,

Li on says:


I think you can do 1:1 pixel mapping and have overscan. All it means is that you may only be seeing 713 out of the 720 vertical pixels. It doesn't necessarily mean that the image is being scaled.

Li On's comments on the vertical overscan are inconclusive, IMO.

I don't believe you *can* have both overscan *and* 1:1 pixel mapping.

Assuming the projector is not simply cutting off rows of pixels from the incoming signal, and further assuming the source is really sending out 1280x720 pixels exactly (Li ON was using a PC with a Radeon 9600XT set to 1280x720 connected via DVI, so I think that qualifies as "exactly 1280x720"), then any missing rows above/below the LCD panel bounds could mean scaling is applied, which means a reduction in detail.

It seems like its more of an addressing offset that shouldn't be there. For instance, its like it is mapping 1:1, but a shifting of the rows in {x, Y} coordinates.

Originally posted by funkapus
.... Hope that helps.
Thanks so much, that clears up my confusion.

Originally posted by TheFerret
It seems like its more of an addressing offset that shouldn't be there. For instance, its like it is mapping 1:1, but a shifting of the rows in {x, Y} coordinates.

This doesn't appear to be the case. From Li On's post:

"Some V-pos adjust in the AE700 Position menu gets the vertical image to center, meaning missing a equal amount of pixels top/bottom. From AVIA overscan pattern, there is close to 1% crop on both top/bottom."

There are missing rows on *both* the top *and* bottom. Unless the AE700 is missing rows of pixels, the unit Li On tested is scaling the image vertically.

Perhaps there is a menu option called "True" or "PC" or "Pass through" in the AE700 to bypass the scaler?

Didn't you just say Li On's testing was inconclusive? :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
Didn't you just say Li On's testing was inconclusive? :)

I guess the 1% top/bottom overscan statement could be called "conclusive", but what I meant by "inconclusive" is that I'm not sure if all AE700 menu scaling options were considered in Li On's tests. We don't want to accuse the AE700 of not being able to do 1:1 pixel mapping prematurely.

Again, both my 1997 vintage Mits X100 XGA (which I bought refurb in 1999) and current PLV60 have menu options called "True" mode, placed with the "Zoom" and "Normal" scaling options. The "True" mode bypasses any scaling, sending the incoming signal as-is to the panels.

Perhaps a similar menu pick is available on the AE700?

Since I'm getting my 700 today, but don't have my screen setup ready yet, I won't be able to offer any good feedback on PQ. But this 1:1 mapping issue sounds like something I could tackle with AVIA and DVE. *edit* obviously I need to project on 'something' to test anything, so I will use a nice clean wall until my screen is ready, but I won't be able to offer good commentary on contrast and colors that way. but I CAN check overscan.

RGB, as a fellow Metro-Detroiter and someone who REALLY wants 1:1 from my HTPC, I got yer back ;) -- I find it hard to believe that its just plain not possible!

I do not have access to a laptop so unless I want to haul a desktop PC this weekend I cannot test either. I am attempting to make arrangements for a visit to JDEATON visit. Maybe I can see if he has a laptop to plug into his projector for 1:1 test-pattern testing. What should one use to best-test this?

A test I will try to run tonight is this:

Open the "Paint" program that comes with Windows. Press Ctrl-E to bring up the image properties and set the image size to 2 pixels by 2 pixels. In those four pixels, draw a miniature checkerboard pattern in black and white. Save image (as BMP) somewhere you can find it easily. Set this file to be your desktop background picture. Make sure it is set to "tile" in order to fill the screen with the pattern.

Now set up your laptop and projector using the 1:1 pixel resolution. If it genuinely is 1:1 mapping, the alternating black-and-white pixels on the Windows desktop should appear as a flat mid-grey background with no rippling or moire effects.

Originally posted by burkheart
Thanks so much, that clears up my confusion.

me too, ta

Originally posted by hazard
A test I will try to run tonight is this:

Open the "Paint" program that comes with Windows. Press Ctrl-E to bring up the image properties and set the image size to 2 pixels by 2 pixels. In those four pixels, draw a miniature checkerboard pattern in black and white. Save image (as BMP) somewhere you can find it easily. Set this file to be your desktop background picture. Make sure it is set to "tile" in order to fill the screen with the pattern.

Now set up your laptop and projector using the 1:1 pixel resolution. If it genuinely is 1:1 mapping, the alternating black-and-white pixels on the Windows desktop should appear as a flat mid-grey background with no rippling or moire effects.

And if you get up close with your nose to the screen, you should easily see each individual pixel, alternating black, white, discrete.

Why the checkerboard and not just alternating columns and another graphic with alternating rows?

Mainly because I'm far too disorganised to always have a copy of such a graphic on hand and it only takes two mouse clicks to generate the checkerboard :D

Originally posted by Aldrin
I want an ae700 but unfortunately I just bought the L500u about 3 months ago. It's just to impractical to upgrade this early.

I bought my 500 6 months ago - and I'm up-grading. Jump on board!

Originally posted by hazard
Mainly because I'm far too disorganised to always have a copy of such a graphic on hand and it only takes two mouse clicks to generate the checkerboard :D
Hmm, same two mouse clicks for either row or column, too. :) And how are we counting them to denote that we are getting 1280 columns and 720 rows?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Hmm, same two mouse clicks for either row or column, too. :)

You know something? You're right! Doh.


And how are we counting them to denote that we are getting 1280 columns and 720 rows?


One... two... three... four... :)

After reading more than enough info on DIY screen with wall painting, I'm *almost* ready to paint. I'm first wondering what's the better matchup with this particular projector. The setup is TLC basement, 20' throw, 120" screen.

Home Depot Behr paint acronyms:
SM=Silver Metallic
ME=Misty Evening
SS=Silver Screen

I'm leaning towards a mix of 4:1 SS:SM or 4:1 ME:SM. The difference here that I've learned from the forums is that SS will add a touch of red to the grey, while ME will add a touch of green. Which would be the better combination for the 700 projector?

Can any AE700 owners speak to the presence
(or lack thereof) of the-pink/green-in-the-corners-
of-the-screen-effect that drove me crazy on my old
AE100?

RGB,
I think we are running into semantics here. Overscan simply means that a display is cropping an image -- you are losing part of the image on the edges. Say we are losing 7 pixels (1%) on the ae700; if it is simply overscan then we have lost those 7 rows of pixels. If the PJ was also scaling the image to account for the overscan then it would be taking those 720 rows and "scaling" that into 713 rows (you would get the effect described by hazard) and the missing part of the image wouldn't necessarily come from the edges. I agree with you that either is a bad thing in this case but just because overscan is happening doesn't mean scaling is as well. Check out this article on overscan:
http://www.mastersofcinema.org/reviews/03lookingbeyond.htm

Colour uniformity. We haven't heard much about this. Sometimes projectors start their life perfectly fine and develope the tinted corners later. AE700 pioneers, please give us your feedback :)

Originally posted by Borg
http://www.mastersofcinema.org/reviews/03lookingbeyond.htm

Interesting site btw.
sure strikes my fancy.

thanks for that,
ted

I didn't see any pink/green discolorations on the 700.

Regarding a "pass-thru" mode on the 700, there is an Aspect setting called V SCROLL that is available on the analog VGA input. According to the manual it does not scale the image at all, but there is also a parenthetical saying it only works for XGA, MXGA, SXGA, and Wide768. There is no mention of this aspect mode being available for the HDMI input. If I can get Nils to bring the 700 over to my HT next week I'll test it out with powerstrip on the VGA input. I don't have the necessary cables for HDMI testing.

Edit: The position menu on the PC input also has adjustments for H position, V position, Dot Clock, Clock Phase, and Aspect. Sure looks like they're trying to allow for 1:1 mapping. On the HDMI input, the position menu only allows for H position, V position, and Aspect control.

Ugh...it's killin me waiting for my projector to arrive. UPS says "out for delivery"

Originally posted by Borg
RGB,
I think we are running into semantics here. Overscan simply means that a display is cropping an image -- you are losing part of the image on the edges. Say we are losing 7 pixels (1%) on the ae700; if it is simply overscan then we have lost those 7 rows of pixels. If the PJ was also scaling the image to account for the overscan then it would be taking those 720 rows and "scaling" that into 713 rows (you would get the effect described by hazard) and the missing part of the image wouldn't necessarily come from the edges. I agree with you that either is a bad thing in this case but just because overscan is happening doesn't mean scaling is as well. Check out this article on overscan:
http://www.mastersofcinema.org/reviews/03lookingbeyond.htm

I guess that's what I'm miffed about here. This is October 2004, not 1999. We shouldn't have to argue about "semantics" or any reservation whatsoever regarding 1:1 pixel mapping on 1280x720 native projectors any longer. This is one of the "basics". If a current 1280x720 pixel display device gets a 1280x720 pixel input signal, then each input pixel ought to be mapped directly to an imaging device pixel dead nuts, no questions asked- especially via a digital input.

But then, see my HK AVR630 thread in the Audio recievers forum for another current example of not getting the basics right (audio dropouts on digital inputs). ;)

Originally posted by Jonathan DA
I didn't see any pink/green discolorations on the 700.

Regarding a "pass-thru" mode on the 700, there is an Aspect setting called V SCROLL that is available on the analog VGA input. According to the manual it does not scale the image at all, but there is also a parenthetical saying it only works for XGA, MXGA, SXGA, and Wide768. There is no mention of this aspect mode being available for the HDMI input. If I can get Nils to bring the 700 over to my HT next week I'll test it out with powerstrip on the VGA input. I don't have the necessary cables for HDMI testing.

Edit: The position menu on the PC input also has adjustments for H position, V position, Dot Clock, Clock Phase, and Aspect. Sure looks like they're trying to allow for 1:1 mapping. On the HDMI input, the position menu only allows for H position, V position, and Aspect control.

I am also intolerant of color uniformity issues.

Good news re: scaler bypass mode on the analog VGA input, with the caveat that it's unclear if the VGA input will accept 1280x720p at 60HZ and bypass the scaler. I have a nice Bettercables 10m DB15 run I use on my PLV60 that gives perfect 1:1 mapping, as good as DVI (A/D/A conversions notwithstanding).

I suppose you could send the AE700 1280x768 or 1360x768, then use the V-SCROLL mode to 1:1 map and center a 1280x720 image from a HTPC (using a DVD player that supports this or YXY).

Originally posted by Jonathan DA
I didn't see any pink/green discolorations on the 700.


Edit: The position menu on the PC input also has adjustments for H position, V position, Dot Clock, Clock Phase, and Aspect. Sure looks like they're trying to allow for 1:1 mapping. On the HDMI input, the position menu only allows for H position, V position, and Aspect control.

This, combined with Borg's comments re: overscan, are evidence that perhaps 1:1 mapping is happening on the HDMI/DVI input, with a few rows cropped but not scaled? (leaving blank rows of pixels?).

Need more evidence and testing...

Originally posted by Rgb
I guess that's what I'm miffed about here. This is October 2004, not 1999. We shouldn't have to argue about "semantics" or any reservation whatsoever regarding 1:1 pixel mapping on 1280x720 native projectors any longer. This is one of the "basics". If a current 1280x720 pixel display device gets a 1280x720 pixel input signal, then each input pixel ought to be mapped directly to an imaging device pixel dead nuts, no questions asked- especially via a digital input.


Agree 100%.

And while we're bitching what's with the 60hz refresh rate for the panels? Maybe this is why I've never been able to get rid of stuttering pans, even using reclock. You'd think by now they'd have the ability for multiple rate settings including 72hz for movies. Maybe someone with more knowledge on this subject has some better insight...??

http://www.creationfaq.net/htpc/ae700Res.jpg
From the AE700 Owner's Manual

I'm new to this forum and AE700 is my first digital projector after having NEC XG110 CRT projector. I received my unit yesterday and need members help with issue I have with DVI/HDMI connection between my RCA DTC-210 Directv receiver(DVI output) and AE700(HDMI input) using Monster 400 HDMI/DVI 6 meter cable. The image I obtain can best be described as psychedelic image that is very colorful but seems like R, G, B colors are mapped incorrectly. I have the DTC-210 component output going to a different monitor which displays the image fine and the AE700 displays the same outline of the image but colors are totally off. I've tried component input of the projector and the display is just fine. It's just a straight connection between the receiver and projector using DVI/HDMI cable. Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone experienced the same thing? I spent $200 on this damn cable hoping to get the best possible digital signal connection. I don't know what to blame. The cable, DVI output of RCA-210 receiver or HDMI input of AE700.

Also, I am planning on using my 4port DVI switcher to change sources to AE700. Does anyone know of any issues doing this? I would like to switch DVI output from DTC-210, Radeon 9800 card from my HTPC, Denon 1910 DVD player with DVI output, and Xbox to my projector.

I didn't have the time to test the HD15 input of the AE700 last night but tonight, I'll try the HD15 connector of the projector from my HTPC, Denon 1910 and DTC-210 receiver via DVI/HD15 adapter.

So far, for a digital projector, I'm impressed with the image I got from AE700 right out of the box using component feed from my Denon DVD player even without tweaking A lot of members in this thread are raising issues with contrast capabilities of AE700. Being used to NEC XG-110 projector with contast ratio of 20,000:1 which is a magintude better, I can say that I personally do not see that much difference even with the component feed to AE700 from DVD player watching some of the same source material I saw on the XG-110. Granted I did not make A/B comparison and going just off my memory impressions. So, I wouldn't regard this aspect of performance as a definitive factor in projector selection. What I regard more critical is the ability to display natural colors and image resolution which I regard this projector to be top notch amongst all digital projectors even at much higher price points. Anyway, I'm happy with the purchase but I sure would like any experienced members help on my issues.

Bapenguin,

Where did you order yours?


Originally posted by bapenguin
Ugh...it's killin me waiting for my projector to arrive. UPS says "out for delivery"

Originally posted by TraderGordo
http://www.creationfaq.net/htpc/ae700Res.jpg
From the AE700 Owner's Manual

In regards to your green-assumption ...

This doesn't clarify if 'AA' contains 'A' to begin with, and saying that its 'not converted' is unfounded in my book.

Just for giggles I'll throw in my vote that Gordo's reading looks accurate to me, granted there is a little loophole there, but unless Panny was actually TRYING to deceive with that page....

Originally posted by Borg
Agree 100%.

And while we're bitching what's with the 60hz refresh rate for the panels? Maybe this is why I've never been able to get rid of stuttering pans, even using reclock. You'd think by now they'd have the ability for multiple rate settings including 72hz for movies. Maybe someone with more knowledge on this subject has some better insight...??

It has to do with the LCD pixel response time.

Typical LCD panels are currently around 14-16ms response time.

For 60Hz = 60 cycles/second -> 1/60Hz = 0.016666 seconds/cycle or 16.6ms.

Hence 60Hz for 16ms panels.

For 72Hz, you'd need LCD panels with 13.8ms response time or better. I don't know what the response time of the AE700 panels are.

Originally posted by TheFerret
In regards to your green-assumption ...

This doesn't clarify if 'AA' contains 'A' to begin with, and saying that its 'not converted' is unfounded in my book.

Plus, the AA notation is applied to 1080i inputs! Obviously, 1080i *must* be deinterlaced and scaled to 1280x720, i.e. 1080i can't be "NOT Converted". Therefore, the table is suspect.

There was an interesting discussion a few months back regarding how often the individual cells in an LCoS panel needed constant refreshing during a non-state change. Evidentially, the cell has a natural behavior of going back to a given neutral state, but the frequency was something like 120Hz or something like that. I do not remember if this was to be interpreted as that was how quickly the cell could be cycled between On/Off states though.

RGB, good catch there.

Originally posted by TheFerret
There was an interesting discussion a few months back regarding how often the individual cells in an LCoS panel needed constant refreshing during a non-state change. Evidentially, the cell has a natural behavior of going back to a given neutral state, but the frequency was something like 120Hz or something like that. I do not remember if this was to be interpreted as that was how quickly the cell could be cycled between On/Off states though.

RGB, good catch there.

Maybe next year's D5 panels will have 13ms or better response time for native 72Hz inputs?

Andy,

First of all, you paid WAY too much for your cable. They sell them at Pacific Custom Cable for $28, for example.

You need to do process of elimination to see if the problem is with your cable or your Directv receiver. Trying hooking up a PC to your projector. If it works, then problem is with your satellite receiver.

Yes, you're right. I'm returning my cable to GoodGuys(more like BadGuys). I ordered a cable from Ebay for that price. I'll do process of elimination tonight.

Originally posted by anydaygolfer
Yes, you're right. I'm returning my cable to GoodGuys(more like BadGuys). I ordered a cable from Ebay for that price. I'll do process of elimination tonight.

The issue could be the cable, but your description sounds like a colorspace issue.

Go into the AE700's menu and be sure to force either RGb or YPbPr mode, whatever mode your RCA DTC210 is outputting.

Conversley, change your DTC210 to output RGB or YPbPr, if it is switchable.

Has anyone tried a DTC100 with the AE700?

Originally posted by cpc
Colour uniformity...Sometimes projectors start their life perfectly fine and develop the tinted corners later. AE700 pioneers, please give us your feedback :) Due to the apparent lack of empirical evidence of this on the 700, can 300/500 owners comment on the extent of this on their units?

Getting back to the VB causes. Has anyone ever take this back to a dealer or to Panasonic and asked what causes this effect.

Also what is interesting is the reports of people not having an issue with it upon first purchase but then reporting that they show up the more hours they put on the projector.

Maybe if it is a power issue the unconditioned power is having an increasingly adverse affect on the the panels.

Just thoughts...
RadioPlay

Originally posted by nowknown
Due to the apparent lack of empirical evidence of this on the 700, can 300/500 owners comment on the extent of this on their units?

Color uniformity issues that crop up over time can often be attributed to polarizer and/or LCD panel discoloration due to overheating over time. With the more efficient, lower power bulbs used nowadays, this *should* be less of an issue, but could crop up if the airflow isn't designed right...

Isn't Projector Central supposed to be providing a review between the Z3 and the Panny 700 today?


Craig :) :)

Yes... boo to them. I've been checking all day.

reap

Originally posted by Rgb
It has to do with the LCD pixel response time.

Typical LCD panels are currently around 14-16ms response time.

For 60Hz = 60 cycles/second -> 1/60Hz = 0.016666 seconds/cycle or 16.6ms.

Hence 60Hz for 16ms panels.

For 72Hz, you'd need LCD panels with 13.8ms response time or better. I don't know what the response time of the AE700 panels are.


LCD frequency/refresh rate and response rate are NOT dependent on each other.

You do not need panels with a response time of 13 ms to run at a refresh rate of 72Hz. You'd just need a panel designed to run at 72Hz (regardless of response time) which isn't going to happen anytime soon because manufacturers don't see the need for it. Actually, some monitors might run at 72Hz (My lcd monitor will run at either 60Hz or 75Hz).

I think AA simply means the picture quality itself. AA is better than A. I don't think A denotes scaling alone. If you look closely, the AA is restricted to any resolution which is the same or higher 16:9 resolution than the native lcd panels. So 1280 x 720 progressive or 1920 x 1080 interlaced. As many have found, feeding a higher resolution to a projector, regardless of down-scaling, usually looks very good. There are some resolutions which are higher than 1280 x 720, however, they are 4:3. Some listed resolutions come close to 16:9 but they are not exact, so they require processing and therefore do not earn the AA rating (1360 x 768 and 1072 x 600 - both close to 16:9 but not exactly 1.777 as 1280 x 720 and 1920 x 1080). So only 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 are AA. Kinda sucks that 480 wide isn't listed as AA but so far people have been commenting that it looks good. I guess there must be a comparison. DVD's are 480, its either the dvd player, an outboard processor or the pj which must scale. Who does it best?

Official release for this puppy in Canada is Mid December! Price will probably be much higher than foreign, so Canadians may as well continue to import.

Originally posted by Rgb
The issue could be the cable, but your description sounds like a colorspace issue.

Go into the AE700's menu and be sure to force either RGb or YPbPr mode, whatever mode your RCA DTC210 is outputting.

Conversley, change your DTC210 to output RGB or YPbPr, if it is switchable.

Has anyone tried a DTC100 with the AE700?

Thanks, I'll check this out as well.

BTW, I am using 1,400 watt UPS that outputs sinewave and a Variac to keep it at exact voltage that I was using with my old NEC XG-110 projector to give it a clean power. I know it made a visible difference in my old crt projector.

The super benefits of digital projector is that I couldn't believe how easy it was for me to setup this projector - set the image size to fit screen using V/H lens shift and focus. Fan noise is super low compared to the 7 fans I had in my old unit. I moved recently and didn't feel like paying $650 to get it crt projector dialed in again. I'll start tweaking this baby tonight.

Question about the projector lens ring. Does anyone know if its threaded, and in either case (threaded or not) what the diameter is?

Originally posted by Rgb
Plus, the AA notation is applied to 1080i inputs! Obviously, 1080i *must* be deinterlaced and scaled to 1280x720, i.e. 1080i can't be "NOT Converted". Therefore, the table is suspect.

Well, the nmarketing spam implies that the video processor does inverse telecine on 1080i content. And on an analog connection using the highest resolution you can feed the projector is often prefered over the native rate so that noise gets lost in the downsampling.

But I think it is safe to say that 1080i IS ocnverted since the paenels are progressive and 1280x720. I mean, it's a no-brainer.

I think waht they mean is that the native pixel rate or the highest resolution will provide the best image. There's nothing in there about coverted or not.

Anydaygolfer,

How does the picture compare to the NEC?

thanks

No mention of AE700:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sanyo_plv-z3.htm

Well, bad news people. I have replaced my AE500 with AE700 and actually I'm not that happy. Someone asked about the "pink/green corners" and yes, my top right corner has a greenish tint, while down left is reddish (picture comes from ATI Radeon x800 Pro Platinum through DVI/HDMI cable). I thought (hoped...) that it's a fault of the DVI/HDMI cable, but the same happens with differens source, different cable (Xbox and component video). The whole thing is visible only on greish pictures (eg. when I set my Windows background to pure red or blue, all is good, but when I set it to light grey the problem is clearly visible).


I never had such a problem with AE500. Makes me wonder if this is general AE700's problem, or just my particular unit's problem...

Warranty that puppy if it looks bad.

Bummer. My AE-500 is perfect with full-screen grey (and black and white films). What about everything else? How does everything else compare?

Isn't there a way to tweak that out in the service menu? Do the flicker tweak and see if that improves your picture any. I know I'm reaching here but I'd try everything imaginable before sending it back.

Originally posted by mrad
No mention of AE700:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sanyo_plv-z3.htm

Interesting they have an easy mechanism for removing dust blobs. Wonder how it compares to the ae700.

I heard the Hitachi PJ TX100 has colour uniformity adjustments, and the Epson 500 has some other method of maintaining colour uniformity. Definitely try to see what you can do, but you don't want to max out any adjustments to get it looking "normal" out of the box. If its just oddly out of wack, that's one thing, but its a new projector and should look good right from the get go. It should look like what most other AE700 owners are seeing.

Yeah, well, if other AE700 users are perfectly happy with their hardware, must be my unit. That's what I hope for. It is a bummer indeed, as I was always happy with AEs (first AE100 then AE500). Anyway the answer to : "Isn't there a way to tweak that out in the service menu?" is, in short, no. When displaying through HDMI you have less options than normally (eg you cannot set the aspect ratio etc.), which on one hand is understandable (pure digital stream), and on the other really pissing me off (I am using 1280x720 and it's NOT 1:1 mapped, I am missing some lines - at least in AE500 one could choose between WIDE1 and WIDE2 for digital input). I tried gamma, etc. etc. - but this way you change the values for the whole screen, not for, say, top right corner ;)

I just watched a bunch of black and white film noir trailers and this whole issue (left part of the screen = reddish, right part = greenish) is starting to really bug me. I did a quick google search and found one link when the man also mentions similiar problem:

w ww.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=458&page_number=1

...but this one's for AE200... Quite honestly I cannot remember that my good ol' AE100 has such a problem, and for sure it was not present in AE500. Well, if NO ONE else has this issue, I guess it's time to call the dealer...

Originally posted by ianken
Well, the nmarketing spam implies that the video processor does inverse telecine on 1080i content.

Wow.

Can anyone else confirm the inverse telecine on 1080i inputs?

Also, does it do inverse telecine on both analog and digital 1080i inputs?

IVTC on 1080i signals (which means the projector deinterlaces 1080i internally to 1080p, then scales down to 720p for the LCD panel) was a leading edge feature just last year, only on one or twomuch more expensive 720p projectors...

Well I got my Ae700 today and I"ll give you guys some impressions. It's not set up in my official "theater" yet as it's not done. I'm projecting about a 75" diagonal image right now on a DIY blackout cloth screen.

JUst played some XBox on it, checked out a few movies (Shrek, Star Wars Episode 1, LOTR:FOTR) and watched all of The Day After Tomorrow.

Brightness - very very good. I really don't like the first 2 cinema modes, they seem to dark. Cinema3 has good brightness and contrast. I use the "normal" mode for gaming on the xbox.

color - great color, looks really good and it's very uniform.

lens shift works great

black levels - i was worried about this, but I can say the blacks are good, very good.

pixel structure - i'm sitting a bit close to my screen, and my screen has a bit of a texture to it, but I do notice some pixelation...I think this is attributed mostly to my screen. On a wall it's less noticable.
I should also mention the lens zoom is ALL the way zoomed since I have the projector so close to the screen. I think this helps attribute to it a little.

fan noise - a slight hum, didn't notice it while watching movies.

hmm..not much else. I'm definately very happy. Tomorrow i'll hook up my PC and see how that looks.

Regarding color uniformity:

Color uniformity is a problem with LCD and LCos technology. The tendancy to be non-uniform has nothing to due with panel aging. Certain models seem to be better at controlling, mitigating, or eliminating the problem. But there is a great deal of unit to unit variation within models.

Because many users have not reported problems does not mean that their units are perfect. If you always watches color images, you will never see this problem - unless it is terribly severe. To find color uniformity problems, you must look at full panel (16:9) black and white images, or various IRE levels of gray fields. It would be helpful to the forum if any owners reporting on new units, could put up some gray fields from Avia or VE, and let us know what they see. Problems are usually more visible at higher IRE levels.

People who are sensitive to this issue (if your unit has it) will be bothered when viewing black and white images. People who are not sensitive to it will not have a problem even with black and white.
For those of us who watch a lot of black and white, it can be very annoying.

Pip

Ekkehat -

In addition to the Panny AE700, I see that you've also run the Sanyo Z3 through your battery of tests. In your opinion, which projector would be the best purchase for a first timer.

Personally, I'm content with my ol' crt, but I'm in the process of putting together a theater for my parents and I'm torn between these two units. I know they'd probably be happy with either, but I'll be forever scouring these boards to get them the best value.

Thanks -

Mark

If you read PCs lead-in blurb, they didn't have time to finish the comparison! They will post the compo by next Tuesday (probably late in the day, Las Vegas time).

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news101504.htm

I find it interesting that they seemed to give the Z3 a more positive review, but their words said it didn't have as much brightness or contrast. They liked the fact that the Z3 has 2 sets of component inputs and they loved the air holes to clear dust off the panels.

PS - I have an L300 with 684 hours on it. I have no discolored panels (pink or green spots = dust blobs???), no dust blobs, and only minor pixelation or VB only on SD (D* signals - HD-TL receiver through VGA cable). I have a "dusty" environment and I clean the filter before every use. I just checked Star Wars, Ep. IV, the Tatoine desert sequence -- I have to really strain to see any VB (it looks like it might be there but it's virtually invisible). I have an ancient Draper Luma, glass-beaded, screen which seems to mask this kind of defect if it exists.

BTW, I'm getting upgrade-itis too -- PJ, screen, receiver and DVD player. The latter will be hard to justify, since my Panny RP91 does a very good job (the Panny S97 looks very tempting). My screen is about 20 years old and my Pioneer THX (5.1) receiver is about 12 years old. The L300 is approaching 2 and the RP91 is is about 5.

Maybe next year's D5 panels will have 13ms or better response time for native 72Hz inputs?

The D4 panels in the AE700 have a reponse time of 16 ms. Next years D5 panels will have a response time of 12 ms.

Hopefully the D5 panels will have auto-anti-VB built in! :D

Wanted to add a few things to my AE700 "review"

First, I haven't seen VB yet. I watched about 6 other dvds last night, a bunch of clips that I like to call good "test" clips.

Here's what I ran:
Gladiator - opening scene and roses battle scene (good color balance and skin tones, great detail on the wheat fields)

Aliens - a bunch of dark scenes - (BLACKS LOOKED GOOD!)

Moulin Rouge - the your song scene (Great colors, good transformation from bright red indoors to bluish out doors.)

The Thin Red Line - opening Malanysian scene as well as battle on the grassy hill (good color detail and the "army colors" looked accurate)

Finding Nemo -tons of scenes here all looked beautiful

Kill Bill - the crazy 88's fight scene and snow fight at the end (black and white looked uniform throughout and looked black and white. blacks had a SLIGHT reddish hue)

Shrek - Ogres Like Onions scene -absolutley beautiful.

Do you know what the response time on the HS51 panels are?

reap, I think you and I are about to be cast as fence sitters between the 51 and 700. Both units seems to be having some interesting (e.g. positive) results.

Originally posted by anydaygolfer
I'm new to this forum and AE700 is my first digital projector after having NEC XG110 CRT projector. I received my unit yesterday and need members help with issue I have with DVI/HDMI connection between my RCA DTC-210 Directv receiver(DVI output) and AE700(HDMI input) using Monster 400 HDMI/DVI 6 meter cable. The image I obtain can best be described as psychedelic image that is very colorful but seems like R, G, B colors are mapped incorrectly. I have the DTC-210 component output going to a different monitor which displays the image fine and the AE700 displays the same outline of the image but colors are totally off. I've tried component input of the projector and the display is just fine. It's just a straight connection between the receiver and projector using DVI/HDMI cable. Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone experienced the same thing? I spent $200 on this damn cable hoping to get the best possible digital signal connection. I don't know what to blame. The cable, DVI output of RCA-210 receiver or HDMI input of AE700.

Also, I am planning on using my 4port DVI switcher to change sources to AE700. Does anyone know of any issues doing this? I would like to switch DVI output from DTC-210, Radeon 9800 card from my HTPC, Denon 1910 DVD player with DVI output, and Xbox to my projector.

I didn't have the time to test the HD15 input of the AE700 last night but tonight, I'll try the HD15 connector of the projector from my HTPC, Denon 1910 and DTC-210 receiver via DVI/HD15 adapter.

So far, for a digital projector, I'm impressed with the image I got from AE700 right out of the box using component feed from my Denon DVD player even without tweaking A lot of members in this thread are raising issues with contrast capabilities of AE700. Being used to NEC XG-110 projector with contast ratio of 20,000:1 which is a magintude better, I can say that I personally do not see that much difference even with the component feed to AE700 from DVD player watching some of the same source material I saw on the XG-110. Granted I did not make A/B comparison and going just off my memory impressions. So, I wouldn't regard this aspect of performance as a definitive factor in projector selection. What I regard more critical is the ability to display natural colors and image resolution which I regard this projector to be top notch amongst all digital projectors even at much higher price points. Anyway, I'm happy with the purchase but I sure would like any experienced members help on my issues.

Anydaygolfer,

I have the same combo you have, Panny 700 and DTC 210. I also have a 6 meter Monster 400 cable, but HDMI to HDMI. I am using a DVI to HDMI adapter plugged into the back of the DTC 210. No problems. Did you set the DTV Output Select switch on the back of the DTC 210 to RGB&DVI? The default setting is Y Pr Pb. Hope this helps.

John

Hey John, you still up for company this weekend?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Hey John, you still up for company this weekend?

Sure thing, but it will have to be tomorrow (Sunday). We're having some friends over for a little movie party tonight. Give me a call, I think you should have my my cell phone number from my email reply. Also to answer a couple of your questions. I do have "Dark City" and Avia. I also have a notebook PC and an RGB Cable.

Originally posted by TheFerret
reap, I think you and I are about to be cast as fence sitters between the 51 and 700. Both units seems to be having some interesting (e.g. positive) results.

Yes, I agree... the upcoming face-offs between the Panny 700, Sony 51 and the Z3 for that matter, will be intriguing to say the least.
However, if I were ready for a fp right now, it would be the panny 700 over the Sony 51. Not because the panny will be cheaper, not because I feel the 700 will be better, (it probably won't) but because of the throw capabilities of the 700.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the Sony 51, and would cough up the difference in price for this projector over the panny 700 in a minute if it meet my throw distance requirements. I definitely feel the video performance of the Sony will match the increase in its price over the panny, but a 20+ foot throw for a nine foot wide screen is incredible for a projector in this price range. According to the specs on the throw distances of the Sony 51 and the Z3, the contest isn't even close.

Any weaknesses in the 700's video capabilities in comparison to the performance of the Sony and Z3 will be made up in spades because of its versatility in placement.



Craig :) :)

I was a fence-sitter re. the 700, Z3 and HS51, but having seen the HS51's price, it's just out of my range. I actually don't think its even fair to compare it directly to the 700 and Z3 - its price suggests it's in a different league.

Price aside, the HS51's throw distance is a bit prohibitive for me also.

I'm *almost* set on a 700 now. I may in fact order today..

New more comprehensive review now up at www.Cine4Home.de - its definately worth a read!
Paul

Wow, the picture of the diachroic combiner block with the LCD panels attached is a good shot. Those panels look like they are attached using just clips.

I'm with Pip. I think every LCD (or the majority at least) projector has the colour uniformity/discolouration issue. Some have it right away while others show the effect over time and it is never the exact same. On some it may be slight on others horrible.

I also think some people just can't see it if it isn't super obvious while others (like me) can point out any slight difference across the screen. It pisses me off to be so susceptible to it.

Hell, I see a slight coluration issue on my CRT RPTV that I bet most people would never notice unless I pointed it out...and even then they probably would think I was crazy.

I'm leaning toward AE700 as a first-timer due to the setup options (long-throw and lens-shift give me a fighting chance to work something out in my basement.) Does anyone know if you can mount the PJ upside-down, so that the lens is on the right-side of the unit as you look toward the screen?

This extra 6" helps me get into the lens-shift range from my ideal ceiling mount point, although I am also concerned about the less than "maximum picture quality" when at the extremes of the shift-range. Anyone see what they're talking about in real-life? I assume avoiding keystone is necessary at all costs.

Thanks,
E

Originally posted by BMoreE
Does anyone know if you can mount the PJ upside-down, so that the lens is on the right-side of the unit as you look toward the screen?
Yes.

The stud I plan to ceiling mount the projector on is 13'4" from the screen wall. Do most projector mounts mound the projector right in the middle, meaning half the projector is to the front of the mount point, and the other half is behind? Then my throw distance on a 2' long projector for example would be 12'4'?

Yep. Awesome review. I love seeing inside.

Normally when you mount the projector up high, the screen image is projected below, such as many of us have with ceiling mounting of our AE100/200/300's and 500's. From one example I've seen, it looks like you can shelf mount the projector essentially at what looks like ceiling height. Can you mount this projector on a shelf like this with the image projected below it? Normally for ceiling type mounting, the projector must be mounted upside down. Am I to understand that the AE700 can be mounted at about the same height as ceiling mounting, but right side up? All this without lens shift? That could be useful. One thing though, is that my 4 screws with springs on my ceiling mount is how I align it to the screen. I guess if you have a level wall and make a level shelf you won't be far off to begin with.

No as I understand you can put it on a shelf upside down and projecting just 10cm below your lense with a normal size screen.

Looks like cine4home got no overscan passing 720p via dvi.

(taken from babelfish translation of the latest review)
3,7 Overscan (Know How left here)

One of our points of criticism with the PT-AE500 was the visible Overscan, i.e. the contours were easily cut off and so no complete representation of the picture possible.

While other manufacturers learned here and meanwhile a variable Overscan as menu option to offer, does not have Panasonic anything changed:

In the case of similar or digital 576p passing on the PT-AE 700 cuts above and down approximately 10 pixels off of the picture signal on the left and on the right approximately 30 pixels. This corresponds to a picture loss of over 8%, a straight still tolerabler value, which is no longer completely up-to-date however in our eyes.

Fortunately a native passing on (720p) over DVI can create remedy. Here the projector indicates the entire picture content without Overscan. Who would like to thus have no Overscan, DVD Player with variable output dissolution must change over to a DVI and/or a HDMI.

Originally posted by Ohlson
No as I understand you can put it on a shelf upside down and projecting just 10cm below your lense with a normal size screen.

i don't believe you need to turn it upside down to achieve this result. you could...but upside down or rightside up will provide the same amount of lens shift.

I was talking about NO lens shift. Mounting on the ceiling you must flip the image. I thought perhaps that was a way of projecting below the lens without using "lens shift" per se. I guess not.

If you have to shelf mount high up and this means the projector must be placed upside down, the problems that would remain would be having a shelf that does not obscure the removal and replacement of the filter, allows clear access to the buttons if one desires (in case remote fails) and also, you'd probably want to attach small rubber feet, and ultimately, you would not have much control of picture alignment. Seems to me that ceiling mounting is still prefered for those who cannot do table top. Shelf mounting in my setup would involve the projector behind the viewers and they would have to make sure not to block the light.

Cine4home's ae700 review is very indepth. Seems that the biggest concern noted was less than spectacular scaling of 576i to 720p. I wonder if they could compare 480i 60hz scaling? Perhaps 480i scales better? I guess we could reply on North American's for that info. Anyone have a good dvd player that outputs both 480i and 576i?

Another concern they noted was the color fringing when the lens shift is used. This concerns me...It's going to be impossible to mount this thing in the center of the screen for my setup.

Additionally to the reduced clearance a further restriction was noticeable to us: The more one the Lens SHIFTS out-provoked, the more clearly becomes easy convergence shifts in the picture. Thus red color fringings in edges of e.g. white writing, which decrease the sharpness impression easily, show up. Only during neutral attitude no color fringings are to be recognized. Here would Panasonic have more care little walten to leave, perhaps in the next equipment generation?

You can mount the projector to the back wall. You do not need a shelf to place it in a back of the room position.

Originally posted by Paul Butler
New more comprehensive review now up at "cine4home" - its definately worth a read!
Paul

They didn't say if they can get the 750/50p (720p native @50hz) resolution working via HDMI and, if yes, which setup they used. I can't get that resolution with Momitsu V880 nor Radeon 9800Pro with powerstrip...

Bye,
zan.

"If you always watches color images, you will never see this problem - unless it is terribly severe. To find color uniformity problems, you must look at full panel (16:9) black and white images, or various IRE levels of gray fields. It would be helpful to the forum if any owners reporting on new units, could put up some gray fields from Avia or VE, and let us know what they see. Problems are usually more visible at higher IRE levels."

Sorry, so we should all look for something we don't actually see and then torture ourselves if it's there in some test patterns?

Um, I'm gonna pass and recommend others do the same.

This doesn't help anyone.

Originally posted by TheFerret
reap, I think you and I are about to be cast as fence sitters between the 51 and 700. Both units seems to be having some interesting (e.g. positive) results.

I'd say that description fits me like a glove. I'm waiting for some reviews of the 51 and my room isn't done anyway. So, I'm perfectly content to sit on the fence a while longer.

reap

Anybody that has the AE700, I'm just wonder if it makes a "noise" of some sort when you turn it on. It's almost like a quick click or something...and it's hardly noticeable.

Mine 'clicks' 2 times and it's quite noticeable :)

I was wondering if anyone that has the 700 could comment on how it compares to a 4805. I currently have a 4805 from Costco that I plan on returning, since I can see the pixel structure on HD and I think the colors seems to be muted/washed out.

What I'm wondering is how the 700 colors would compare. I'm used to watching a regular Toshiba 65" TV and the colors are pretty vibrant. I want to get a front projector, but I also want the colors to be just as vibrant as my TV (or at least very close). Is this realistic? Is the 700 the way to go or do I need to spend more money to get that type of performance?

I'm currently projecting onto a Parkland Plastics 96" diag screen and am sitting about 13' back from the screen. Once I determine what projector I'm getting I'll replace the screen with a TBD pulldown type.

John

Originally posted by bapenguin
Anybody that has the AE700, I'm just wonder if it makes a "noise" of some sort when you turn it on. It's almost like a quick click or something...and it's hardly noticeable.

I am guessing that this is the motor on the iris assembly running a self calibration routine whenever the projector switched on.

Originally posted by rogo
"If you always watches color images, you will never see this problem - unless it is terribly severe. To find color uniformity problems, you must look at full panel (16:9) black and white images, or various IRE levels of gray fields. It would be helpful to the forum if any owners reporting on new units, could put up some gray fields from Avia or VE, and let us know what they see. Problems are usually more visible at higher IRE levels."

Sorry, so we should all look for something we don't actually see and then torture ourselves if it's there in some test patterns?

Um, I'm gonna pass and recommend others do the same.

This doesn't help anyone.

I totally agree. If the image looks great to begin with, just enjoy your purchase!! Some things are just better NOT to know about.

On the flip side, being a tweaker myself and I paid over $2000 for a PJ, I would put it throw as many test patterns just to see it beg for mercy, :D

This includes testing for color uniformity, resolution, overscan, detail level, contrast/colour, black level, grey scale (eye balling), etc.. Pretty much every test screen available in ISF calibrated DVE DVD, short of using an expensive light meter to measure its grey scale temperature reading, :P

But if watching movies I don't see any defects, but only in test screens, I'm not going go on a mission to destroy the products credibility by ranting about it online.

Originally posted by rogo
Sorry, so we should all look for something we don't actually see and then torture ourselves if it's there in some test patterns?

Um, I'm gonna pass and recommend others do the same.
This doesn't help anyone.


originally posted by Souki
But if watching movies I don't see any defects, but only in test screens, I'm not going go on a mission to destroy the products credibility by ranting about it online.

Ranting? Destroying a products credibility? Mighty strong words. Does commenting on a projectors brightness, colors, SDE, dithering, or contrast constitute one of the above offenses? If pointing out any shortcomings of a projector constitutes ranting, or detroying a products credibility, it's time to change the forum's name to AV Ranters.

Color uniformity problems are very easily seen in movies - but only black and white movies. As many people almost never watch black and white material, my post was merely intended to point out that because many users report no color uniformity problems, this does not mean that a projector has good color uniformity.

For the vast majority of our members - who rarely watch B&W, it will never be an issue. But for those of us who watch a lot of B&W, this is a very serious problem. Many of our members provide a valuable service by contributing their observations. Many own and use Avia especially when setting up a new machine. To those people interested in color unifomity, I made a suggestion for an easy method to spot it. Anyone who cares to report on it will be doing a great service to the forum members who enjoy black and white material.

Pip

Hi @ all!!!!!

¿Would u like to see my screenshots?

Mundodvd / Homecinema / Pana700 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=241&stop=260)

My system: PT-AE700 / VGA + HTPC + Windvd + Reflecta Perl screen

Im waiting for my DVI - HDMI ..


Regrats :)

They didn't say if they can get the 750/50p (720p native @50hz) resolution working via HDMI and, if yes, which setup they used. I can't get that resolution with Momitsu V880 nor Radeon 9800Pro with powerstrip...


Actually, we didnt either with our HTPC. Now we could not figure out any workaround yet, that is why we havent published any infos on this topic yet.

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cinehome.de

Originally posted by Gn0m4
Hi @ all!!!!!
¿Would u like to see my screenshots?
Mundodvd / Homecinema / Pana700 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=241&stop=260)
My system: PT-AE700 / VGA + HTPC + Windvd + Reflecta Perl screen
Im waiting for my DVI - HDMI ..
Regrats :)
Thanks for the screen captures. Is it just me, the specific content, or is there a lot of green in those captures?

Originally posted by Pip
For the vast majority of our members - who rarely watch B&W, it will never be an issue. But for those of us who watch a lot of B&W, this is a very serious problem. Many of our members provide a valuable service by contributing their observations. Many own and use Avia especially when setting up a new machine. To those people interested in color unifomity, I made a suggestion for an easy method to spot it. Anyone who cares to report on it will be doing a great service to the forum members who enjoy black and white material.

Pip

I am one of those who has an extensive B&W collection and this issue is one I've wondered about but have never gotten around to asking.
Is this a panel issue or a colour processing issue?

Where I work, I am able to turn of the color matrix of some of the devices and obtain and image before the colour processing. Is it possible to turn off the colour processing in some PJ's and be presented with an image solely derived from the primaries? In other words can I derive an image that bypasses the the hue and saturation circuitry? Hence my questions re panels or colour processing.

btw Pip thanks for reminding us of the vast library of films that exist without colour - Greg Toland's work with Orsen Welles just wouldn't be the same in colour.

ted

Ted, Pip, have you considered a dedicated B&W projector? IIRC, LCD get's its red, green, and blue components from the diachroic filters which are then presented to the panels. I would presume that replacing these with neutral splitters would provide for a white light source to each of the three LCD panels which would then generate an image as if you lowered the color saturation down to minimum.

"Gladiator - opening scene and roses battle scene (good color balance and skin tones, great detail on the wheat fields)"

The opening battle scene shows both the VB and the "dirty screen" effect nicely. So it looks like AE700 has improved in those 2 areas.

Hope it's OK to discuss this.

Because of the outrageous price that Canadian dealers are charging for this unit, I'll be importing it.

So I was comparing the cost overseas vs. getting it from the U.S., and there is a huge difference. Granted, the overaseas unit doesn't have English on-screen-display, but I can work around that.

Is anyone going the overseas route? Given my 2 previous positive experiences, I am very comfortable with it.

I am pleasantly surprised to see such interest and commentary on color uniformity. I thought this might be relegated to a post or two. I did see this problem in some color scenes with my AE100 as well as black and white. It became one of those 'gotchas' that gnawed away at you like rainbows or screen door. Panasonic seems to have put many fingers in the dike with this unit, so it would've been quite a coup to nail this little bug-a-boo also. Too bad the Z3 beat 'em to the punch with that dust blob buster thing - neat idea.

Hi folks. I asked this question once before, but I didn't really understand the answer and I'm still perplexed. The 700U supposedly has a throw up to approximately 20' for a 100" screen. That's great. However, by placing this projector that far back, won't objects (people's heads) get in the way and show shadows on the screen? My ceilings will be quite low, around 6'10 in the middle where the beam and duct work is located and a little over 7' in the front and back. So, installing the 700U higher, to accomodate the 20' throw isn't an option.

I was hoping that with the 700U, I could place it 20' (back of the room), and the cone of the image work somehow that it would not cast shadows from those in front. Can anyone that has this projector help me out here?

Tonybradley,

I suggest that you use a piece of graph paper to make a scale drawing of your room. You will then be able to add the cone from the projector to the screen, and clearly see the heights and distances in which shadows will occur.

Thanks Shedrock. I will definitely have a problem then. I was 'hoping' that the 700U did something to where the cone wouldn't widen until closer to the screen, meaning less issues for line of sight. I guess not. Appears you would have to have a fairly tall ceiling if you wanted your throw to be 20', especially if you are only sitting 10-12' from the screen.

Originally posted by tonybradley
Thanks Shedrock. I will definitely have a problem then. I was 'hoping' that the 700U did something to where the cone wouldn't widen until closer to the screen, meaning less issues for line of sight. I guess not. Appears you would have to have a fairly tall ceiling if you wanted your throw to be 20', especially if you are only sitting 10-12' from the screen.

You can use the zoom on the 700 to have a throw distance of 10'1". Go to projector central and look at the projection calculator for the 700.

Here is webpage I found that you can use your printer on to print up graph sheets. http://www.mathematicshelpcentral.com/graph_paper/files/Form4A.pdf
or http://www.mathematicshelpcentral.com/graph_paper/files/Form4B.pdf

Thanks ay221....I'll take a look at it. I did go to projector central.com and look at the throw. Their review says you can sit it in a bookcase in the back of the room. Pardon my ignorance, but if you sit it at the top of the screen, do you need to sit it upside down, just like you would if you were mounting?

It was answered a couple of pages back. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4512132#post4512132

Hey I almost ready to order the panny 700, I'm still waiting for some HS51 reviews. In the mean time I want to get all the rest of my equipment. I was thinking of getting my cables, and have a question regarding HDMI and DVI. I heard that DVI cables have problems with long lengths ( I will need 30'). Does such a problem exist with HDMI?

Does the Panny 700 need a gray screen even with the 2000 to1 contrast?

originally posted by tvted
Is this a panel issue or a colour processing issue?

Where I work, I am able to turn of the color matrix of some of the devices and obtain and image before the colour processing. Is it possible to turn off the colour processing in some PJ's and be presented with an image solely derived from the primaries? In other words can I derive an image that bypasses the the hue and saturation circuitry? Hence my questions re panels or colour processing.


It is a panel issue, present in three chip LCDs and LCos, and perhaps three chip DLPs as well - I'm not sure. It is not related to the saturation, hue, or color decoder circuits. Even if you turn down the color saturation to zero (or disconnect the color portion of your inputs), it is still present. It can be mitigated through internal ciruitry, and many of the latest projectors are doing a much better job of this - sometimes eliminating it completely.

originally posted by TheFerret
Ted, Pip, have you considered a dedicated B&W projector? IIRC, LCD get's its red, green, and blue components from the diachroic filters which are then presented to the panels. I would presume that replacing these with neutral splitters would provide for a white light source to each of the three LCD panels which would then generate an image as if you lowered the color saturation down to minimum.

I'm not really sure that I follow you, but a dedicated B&W projector would be awfully limiting.

Pip

Originally posted by ABCD
Hope it's OK to discuss this.

Because of the outrageous price that Canadian dealers are charging for this unit, I'll be importing it.


Within the rules, has anyone seen a Canadian MRSP? I've not seen it posted on Panasonic's site.

ted

"I'm not really sure that I follow you, but a dedicated B&W projector would be awfully limiting."

One of HP's pj's has a B/W option by, IIRC, stopping the color wheel at the clear segment.

Gives a large brightness increase, too.

Pip, I didn't mention ranting or credibility, yet you quoted me.

And, really, whatever the case, I stand by my remarks. Your black-and-white point is a valid one, but your test-pattern-torture-test business, well, doesn't generally benefit most people.

I don't teach people who've never seen a rainbow on a DLP how to see one because it won't help them enjoy their projector. But there, they still might want to know about it because their friends or family might be bothered. A non-visible color uniformity problem is just not something 99% of people need to be concerned about -- for themselves or others.

Incidentally, two of my three favorite films ever are Casablanca and Citizen Kane (for whatever that's worth).

Mark

Have been playing with my AE700 since it arrived last Wednesday, and I must say I love it. However, I didn't realize at first that its optical center (without using lens shift) is the center of the screen. I was expecting it to be like other PJ's that throw their image up toward the screen (if table mounted right side up), or down toward the screen (if ceiling mounted upside down)

I'm not saying that this was a problem for me, as I couldn't be happier with the flexibility that lens shift provided. I have my PJ mounted on a shelf high on the rear wall about 85 inches from the floor, and I used the lens shift to lower the image about 15" to center it on my screen (which is about 21 feet away).

However, I was a little concerned when I read that Cine4Home.de stated that using the lens shift feature degrades the picture quality. I hope this only applied to using the LS at its extremes, as I can see no way for most people to position the AE700 without using lens shift to some degree. Or am I missing something here?

--- John

I was 'hoping' that the 700U did something to where the cone wouldn't widen until closer to the screen, meaning less issues for line of sight.Sorry, you can count on light traveling in a straight line from the projector to each corner of the projected image. (Maybe a bit of ultra-dense neutron star matter hung from the ceiling could bend the light path, but it would probably cause your ceiling to collapse.)

Originally posted by noah katz
"I'm not really sure that I follow you, but a dedicated B&W projector would be awfully limiting."

One of HP's pj's has a B/W option by, IIRC, stopping the color wheel at the clear segment.

Gives a large brightness increase, too.
I believe that one or two of HP's models had two colorwheels (one business with a white segment and one HT with no white segment) and could also be set to shoot between the colorwheels (much like just shooting through the white segment). I figured that last one would have been great for doing a huge black and white movie outside. I think this was all on a 4:3 projector though. It might have been the XP8010, XP8020, or both.

--Darin

Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
Hey I almost ready to order the panny 700, I'm still waiting for some HS51 reviews. In the mean time I want to get all the rest of my equipment. I was thinking of getting my cables, and have a question regarding HDMI and DVI. I heard that DVI cables have problems with long lengths ( I will need 30'). Does such a problem exist with HDMI?

Does the Panny 700 need a gray screen even with the 2000 to1 contrast?

I'm not well versed on the cable length issue, but recall there is some discussion of it in this thread or another.

Regarding the gray screen issue: This is something I'd like to get resolved before my 700 shows up (ETA 10/15-10/31). Prior to his review of the 700, I wrote to Evan Powell (Projector Central) to ask him if he would address the gray/white screen matter in the review. Mr. Powell kindly, and surprisingly promptly, wrote back explaining that the decision is driven purely by the room (ambient light level & presence or lack of light colored or reflective surfaces) and NOT by the particular projector.

Kevin Nute at Screen Goo, on the other hand, tells me that it's really a matter of personal preference. In his opinion, however, even taking into account the 700's exemplary contrast ratio, there is no existing digital projector which will not benefit from the use of a contrast enhancing (gray) screen.

In the research leading to my purchase of the 700, many, many reviews of various projectors have made screen recommendations which were expressed in terms of one or the other of these viewpoints, and sometimes a combination of them (i.e. both the capabilities of the projector AND the overall darkness of your room drives your decision).

I am a relative newbie, at least in terms of projector ownership and first hand observation. Right out of the gate, I am not inclined toward gray screens. They seem the very essence of compromise, giving to the dark areas of your image what they have robbed from the light ones. It seems implied, however, that good gray screens must, through some grading of reflective properties (reflecting back less of the darker portions of an image than they do of the lighter areas), deepen dark areas more than they dim the light ones, or else they are not actually increasing the contrast ratio, and then who the hell would use one to merely dim their image?

These are interesting times for the debate, with digital projectors, such as the 700, quickly and affordably acheiving respectable contrast ratios

I spent every last expendable dime on my 700, and so, for now, it's Screen Goo or nothing. Just as well, as I wouldn't want to throw much money away on the wrong decision. In light of Projector Central's favorable review of Goo's white product, and much less favorable review of their Gray Lite, I guess I'll go with the white, darken my room as much as possible, and take my lumps. I think you just witnessed me making the actual decision.

That is, unless someone talks me out of it.

I'd be interested to know what you decide.

KongFan

i ran the window with 1280x720. but i found that several pixel (top and bottom) is missing. How can I fix this?
btw, I think this pj is excellent with this price range. (in Hong Kong, we can get this pj about 1650 US dolloar. Great, isn't it?

I'm running my AE700 on blackout cloth on the "rubber" side which actually is slightly tan. I think it looks really good, I still get really white whites, and after watching Star Wars Return of the Jedi last night, I'm convinced this projector does fairly good blacks.

I tweaked up the "Normal" video mode before watching this last night, I'd be interested to hear other people's adjustments on the projector.

I'll post mine after I fire it up and see the settings I used.

Guys.

Ive been looking at screens for this unit.

I notice they have some sort of rating from 0 to 2.2 depending on the model or brand. What does this mean?

Originally posted by yipchunyu
i ran the window with 1280x720. but i found that several pixel (top and bottom) is missing. How can I fix this?
btw, I think this pj is excellent with this price range. (in Hong Kong, we can get this pj about 1650 US dolloar. Great, isn't it?
How did you measure the amount of pixel (rows?) being missing on the top/bottom? You were using the HDMI input or was it something else? What about missing pixels from the left/right?

Originally posted by noah katz
One of HP's pj's has a B/W option by, IIRC, stopping the color wheel at the clear segment.

Gives a large brightness increase, too.

Cool idea, but it sounds like you would be trading one problem for another. Sure you get rid of any color uniformity problems that you have, but how do you control color temperature? If you are using just the white segment, then you have to live with whatever color temperature the unfiltered bulb has. Most MH bulbs come with way too much blue. You are likely to wind up with a color temp of 8000K +, where what you really want for B&W is around 5400K.

Wouldn't it be possible to fix color uniformity and brightness uniformity problems using an HTPC? It seems like it would be dead simple to write a FFDShow filter that could use brightness/color information to adjust the picture frame by frame. You would just need to measure red, green, and blue brightness levels at about 9 points (1 center, 4 corners, 4 sides/top/bottom) at various IRE's, and input these values into the filter. The filter would then interpolate between these points to find out how much to adjust each pixel in order to even out the color and brightness across the entire screen.

Wishful thinking?

I can confirm that - despite using HDMI there are pixels missing (IMHO it's around 40 pixels horizontal and 8 pixels vertical). It's not something I cannot live with, but it is VERY disappointing (I mean... HDMI!).

thatdreamer: great idea with the filter, it is possible (but in order for it to work it would require a "mask" - a bitmap which is preferably the same resolution as your ffdshow output res or your screen's - and is a representation of the color uniformity problem, eg. reddish left half etc. - the filter would then compare the "incoming" pixels with the mask and apply the color correction, eg. reduce Red from the pixels coming to the left half of the screen etc.).

AdrianCh, seems like you may want to exchange your unit. First, you already have a color/brightness uniformity issue from the start, and secondly you have some significant overscan. BTW, how did you measure the overscan?

originally posted by rogo

Pip, I didn't mention ranting or credibility, yet you quoted me.


Please read my post again. The quote about ranting and crediblility was clearly cited as "originally posted by Souki". I probably should not have quoted two different people in the same post.

originally posted by rogo
but your test-pattern-torture-test business, well, doesn't generally benefit most people.

I don't teach people who've never seen a rainbow on a DLP how to see one because it won't help them enjoy their projector. But there, they still might want to know about it because their friends or family might be bothered. A non-visible color uniformity problem is just not something 99% of people need to be concerned about -- for themselves or others.


I agree wholeheartedly with your general point about searching for things which are not visible in normal material, but color uniformity problems, if they are present, are clearly visible to almost everyone when viewing B&W movies. I suggested AVIA not because it is a torture test, but because I believe that our members are likely to have it handy.

Any observations on color uniformity - positive or negative - will greatly benefit those members who watch a lot of black and white material.

Pip

Originally posted by Pip
It is a panel issue, present in three chip LCDs and LCos, and perhaps three chip DLPs as well - I'm not sure. It can be mitigated through internal ciruitry, and many of the latest projectors are doing a much better job of this - sometimes eliminating it completely.

Pip

I suspected as much. It is probably akin to the 'shading' problems that are apparent with some of our studio cameras (both chip and tube) and the problem is corrected by adjustments to the drive voltage before the signals hit the colour matrix.
Fortunately for me I am able to watch content over PQ, so I become oblivious to many picture properties. I imagine I would tweak and be satisfied.

A bigger issue for me actually is the saturation levels - I've seen some over-saturated PJs that present an far too 'sepia' toned B&W experience - that's why I was curious if the colour processing could be turned off of some PJs.

ted

VB

"You go into options and hold enter on osd for 5 seconds and then it puts you into the service menu, from there go into flicker, this screen shows red,blue,green they were all flickering like mad, then I adjusted them by press left or right till the flicker was reduced to no flickering, works wonders. I can not express how pleased I am with this projector now. go buy it. with my ae300 there was something missing in the picture it just didnt look like my crt 32. Now the ae700 isnt far off it."


My friend has a problem. When he pushes "enter" in Flicker Option, then the image changes blue and appears a text that says "Mesa 29", and He can´t change the colors to fit the VB.
Somebody tell me, why does this happen?
His system: DVD Sony 735, Component connection , Pana700.

Thanks

ted,

I'm not sure which projectors you are referring to, but the problem you are describing sounds like it might be caused by one of two things:

1. oversaturation of red - due to red push in the color decoder. This is very easily remedied by lowering the "color" or saturation control when watching B&W. Most new projectors designed for video should not have any red push. Some even permit adjustments to the color decoder controls.

2. incorrect color temperature or white point - in the case you describe: setting the color of white (and all levels of gray) too red. This can also usually be corrected by adjusting the grayscale (the color drive controls - gains and bias, or cuts and drives). I think that all projectors allow adjustment of grayscale somehow.

Pip

Originally posted by Gn0m4
VBMy friend has a problem. When he pushes "enter" in Flicker Option, then the image changes blue and appears a text that says "Mesa 29", and it can´t change the colors to fit the VB.
Somebody say me, why it happens this?When you enter the Flicker Adj menu the first screen is the Blue adjust for desk orientation – thus explaining why your Spanish model says “Mesa”. If you press the up or down arrows on the remote you will cycle through the blue, red, green flicker adjust screens for both desk and ceiling orientations. For each blue, red, and green screen the projector will display a value. In your friend's case, blue is currently set at 29. If the image is flickering then he can use the right and left arrows to change that value until the flickering stops.


Nils Luehrmann

Kongfan-
I don't know how much the Goo costs, but blackout material can be had on sale for about $3-5/yard (54" wide). I built a screen for a total of about $25 using wood trim painted flat black. IMO there isn't much difference between a matte white screen and blackout fabric (at least the stuff at joann's fabric store). I would highly recommend before spending a lot of money on a screen that you first get samples from the major screen companies and see what fits your fancy (they should send you some for free). There are some great threads over in the screen forum about different kinds of material with comparison pictures. Tryg has a great thread comparing higher gain screens with the grey ones. It really is an eye opener.

Hi all,

I'd like to know if the "auto iris" works with economy lamp mode. Are you all using witch lamp mode?

Thanks,
Marcos Koetzler

Originally posted by AdrianCh
I can confirm that - despite using HDMI there are pixels missing (IMHO it's around 40 pixels horizontal and 8 pixels vertical). It's not something I cannot live with, but it is VERY disappointing (I mean... HDMI!).

That seems in line with what Li On posted. He said he was able to fix the horizontal but not the vertical.

Originally posted by rezokl1
Guys.

Ive been looking at screens for this unit.

I notice they have some sort of rating from 0 to 2.2 depending on the model or brand. What does this mean?

The numbers refer to the gain of the screen. In general, with regards to screens, gain refers to the amount of light reflected back to the source. In general higher gain screens will produce brighter images viewed from the center of the screen but the image dims more quickly the further from the center you are. Read the info at the following link as it will certainly explain this better and more thoroughly than I have:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_screens_gain.htm

Peace,

Originally posted by MCKoe
Hi all,

I'd like to know if the "auto iris" works with economy lamp mode. Are you all using witch lamp mode?

Thanks,
Marcos Koetzler

No, it doesn't have any effect in economy mode....

what's great about this projector is even in high lamp mode, you can hardly hear it.

I'm still here in Houston, but while catching up with the thread I see there seems to be some concerns regarding color uniformity on the AE700?

Originally posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4506828#post4506828) by cpc
Colour uniformity. We haven't heard much about this. Sometimes projectors start their life perfectly fine and develope the tinted corners later. AE700 pioneers, please give us your feedback :) RGB's response (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4508743#post4508743) is more or less my own. Especially older LCD panels which are more susceptible to damage from excessive heat above the normal operating levels. This is why it is important to clean the air filter screens on LCD projectors more so than DLP projectors. Unfortunately if this happens, the damaged panels have to be replaced as they can not be repaired. I saw this effect from an old Sony 400Q a few years ago and it cost about $500 for parts and labor to replace all three panels. Apparently the owner had not ever cleaned the filter and had logged over two thousand hours on the unit.

Originally posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4509798#post4509798) by AdrianCh
Well, bad news people. I have replaced my AE500 with AE700 and actually I'm not that happy. Someone asked about the "pink/green corners" and yes, my top right corner has a greenish tint, while down left is reddish (picture comes from ATI Radeon x800 Pro Platinum through DVI/HDMI cable). I thought (hoped...) that it's a fault of the DVI/HDMI cable, but the same happens with differens source, different cable (Xbox and component video). The whole thing is visible only on greish pictures (eg. when I set my Windows background to pure red or blue, all is good, but when I set it to light grey the problem is clearly visible).

I never had such a problem with AE500. Makes me wonder if this is general AE700's problem, or just my particular unit's problem... Without seeing your projector, it certainly sounds like it is a problem with your projector/settings/system. After the many hours of running every kind of test pattern you can imagine I, and those who attended the same demos saw no problems with color uniformity.

If you have AVIA here are the test patterns that are best for evaluating and isolating color uniformity issues (Title/Chapter):

( 1 / 7 ) Vertical 10 IRE Steps
( 1 / 8 ) Horizontal 10 IRE Steps
( 1 / 9 ) Crossed Step Scale
( 1 / 102 ) Vertical Gray Ramp
( 1 / 103 ) Horizontal Gray Ramp
( 1 / 104 ) Crossed Horizontal Gray Ramp
( 1 / 105 ) Crossed Vertical Gray Ramp
( 1 / 24 ) 10 IRE Field
( 1 / 25 ) 20 IRE Field
( 1 / 26 ) 30 IRE Field
( 1 / 27 ) 40 IRE Field
( 1 / 28 ) 50 IRE Field
( 1 / 29 ) 60 IRE Field
( 1 / 30 ) 70 IRE Field
( 1 / 31 ) 80 IRE Field
( 1 / 32 ) 90 IRE Field
( 1 / 33 ) 100 IRE Field
( 4 / 15 ) Yellow Field
( 4 / 16 ) Cyan Field
( 4 / 17 ) Green Field
( 4 / 18 ) Red Field
( 4 / 19 ) Magenta Field
( 4 / 20 ) Blue Field
( 5 / 5 ) Gamma Chart

I have three more demos coming up in Austin next week and I'll be sure to run these test patterns again, but so far my unit has been passing all of AVIA's with flying colors (and quite uniformly at that) ;)

Frankly, it is the superb gray scale tracking and color accuracy/controls of the AE700 that has me so impressed and may have me replacing my now ageing DLP for this LCD projector. My decision will be easier to make once I see how it compares directly to the Immersive Virtusso (HD2), BenQ 8700+ (HD2+), and Sharp 12K (HD2+ w/7-Seg CW) – which will likely happen by the end of next week. I’ve seen all three of these projectors in action on several occasions and even within our Austin group all three are being used by various members. Without having yet done a direct comparison, I can only say that my impressions so far are that the AE700 will not only hold its own against the performance capabilities of these projectors, but may exceed them in regards to SDE, color accuracy, gray scale tracking, and end-user control/calibration capabilities. I already know it is brighter, more quiet, and hands down the easiest to install. It also has some excellent user-end features with intuitive OSD menus and a well though out remote control. My only real concern is ultimate black level and shadow detail which are both very important to my viewing experience – which is also why I have always preferred CRT and DLP.

Personally my previous choice of a DLP over CRT was a compromise I was willing to make for the same reasons why most of my fellow CRT users also switched to DLP/LCoS and have been overly discussed and analyzed on this and the CRT forum. One issue though that continues to bother me about DLP is the exaggerated motion blur dithering artifacting. Having logged now several hours on the AE700 I am finding it even more difficult now to put up with this artifacting on my own projector. If the black level and shadow detail are significantly better on any of those HD2/2+ it will make my decision a difficult one, but at the current pricing even then I am having a hard time justifying paying the cost of these current crop of DLP projectors after seeing what the AE700 can do at a fraction of the cost!

Regardless of how you feel about any given display technology, I must say I am terribly impressed with the advancements in all of these technologies, and can’t wait to see what will be available to us in another five or so years!


Nils Luehrmann