Auto-iris does work in low lamp mode. The contrast is reduced by 30%.

'Anyone in the Orlando area have the 700?

Originally posted by cpc
Auto-iris does work in low lamp mode. The contrast is reduced by 30%.

And the absolute blacks are better?

Originally posted by Scott B
The D4 panels in the AE700 have a reponse time of 16 ms. Next years D5 panels will have a response time of 12 ms.

How much you wanna bet that a big feature of the D5 projector's next year will be true even multiple 24p playback (i.e. 24p * 3 = 72Hz)? ;)

Originally posted by Rhys
LCD frequency/refresh rate and response rate are NOT dependent on each other.

You do not need panels with a response time of 13 ms to run at a refresh rate of 72Hz. You'd just need a panel designed to run at 72Hz (regardless of response time) which isn't going to happen anytime soon because manufacturers don't see the need for it. Actually, some monitors might run at 72Hz (My lcd monitor will run at either 60Hz or 75Hz).

There was a long recent discussion of this in another thread.

I think that LCD monitors that accept greater than 60Hz at their analog inputs will convert the refresh to 60Hz for the panels, just as all under $3500 LCD projectors do.

72Hz = 0.013888 seconds, or 13.8 ms.

If a pixel can't respond faster than 16ms (= 62.5Hz) (typical LCD panels in projector's currently), then how can it change in response to new frame information, which may contain a changed pixel, every 13.8ms?

It's not a coincidence that the AE700 converts all inputs to 60Hz, as it's panels are 16ms, or 62.5Hz capable. It can respond to image changes on a pixel basis 62.5 times a second or less, no greater.

Per Scott B's post, next years D5 panels will respond at 83.3Hz, or 12ms. They should be capable of 72p (24fps *3) judder free playback of film sources.

Originally posted by cpc
Auto-iris does work in low lamp mode. The contrast is reduced by 30%.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And the absolute blacks are better?"

Probably not. My guess is that in high, blacks are lowered by putting the lamp in low power mode along with closing the iris. In low lamp mode the CR is reduced by the same 30% that the brightness is cut.

Yep thats probably correct. I wonder if an extra 30% contrast ratio is worth running the bulb high?

I thought Full On/Off contrast was measured by measuring brightness at 100-IRE and again at 0-IRE and dividing 100-IRE-Value/0-IRE-Value. Would a reduction in the lamp's output affect both equally? Confused.

cpc: you said that the 700 won't be in Canada until mid-Dec. Ouch, that's an excruciatingly long wait. Where did you hear this?

Originally posted by TheFerret
How did you measure the amount of pixel (rows?) being missing on the top/bottom? You were using the HDMI input or was it something else? What about missing pixels from the left/right?

i haven't count the pixel. but part of the icons on the top screen missed some pixel. So, any solutions for this? need service or factory menu to fix this?
BTW, I want to buy a CR40 filter to use with this pj. I know every pj has some minor difference. But based on the review from cine4home.de, it should be the direction to go and I think while not I get perfect correct color temp and best contrast. The pj should perform better with it.
So, what is the size of the filter should I buy? any recommendation?

Originally posted by AustinTexas
My decision will be easier to make once I see how it compares directly to the Immersive Virtusso (HD2), BenQ 8700+ (HD2+), and Sharp 12K (HD2+ w/7-Seg CW) – which will likely happen by the end of next week.

.......My only real concern is ultimate black level and shadow detail which are both very important to my viewing experience – which is also why I have always preferred CRT and DLP.

......If the black level and shadow detail are significantly better on any of those HD2/2+ it will make my decision a difficult one, but at the current pricing even then I am having a hard time justifying paying the cost of these current crop of DLP projectors after seeing what the AE700 can do at a fraction of the cost!

Nils Luehrmann

Please do report after your shootout. This sounds like a great comparison. I was pretty set on an HD2+ as my only option for upgrade to my L300u since I also value good black level and shadow detail, which IMO the L300u does not have. I'm open to going with the 700 for now if these two qualities are even remotely close to the 8700+. No way the 700 will win on black level over the 12K in HC mode.

Do you plan on comparing with the 700 stock or tweaked with a filter mod?

Thanks.

Brent

Originally posted by mikeyc
cpc: you said that the 700 won't be in Canada until mid-Dec. Ouch, that's an excruciatingly long wait. Where did you hear this?

Actually, you can get one now from a place in Hamilton...but it is a gray market machine.....still much cheaper than suggested retail....PM me if you want to know where.

But the YPbPr only bit at the end is kind of odd. I guess this means it will only do it via comonent input. Still, that's cool.

From the manual:

CINEMA REALITY
[S-VIDEO/VIDEO/PC/HDMI/525i
(480i), 625i(576i), 1 125(1 080)/60i
and 1 125(1 080)/50i YPBPR only]

ON
Set to “ON” when you would like 24
frames per second pictures (such as
movies) to project the source
faithfully.

OFF
Set to “OFF” when the projected
pictures have problems with
captions or subtitles when the
setting is “ON”.

"I thought Full On/Off contrast was measured by measuring brightness at 100-IRE and again at 0-IRE and dividing 100-IRE-Value/0-IRE-Value. "

Right.

"Would a reduction in the lamp's output affect both equally? Confused."

Right again.

High lamp w/auto iris: CR = 100 IRE@high lamp/0 IRE@low lamp

Low lamp w/auto iris: CR = 100 IRE@low lamp/0 IRE@low lamp

And to amplify Noah's point, it is the very dynamic nature of the iris that allows it to match the darkest darks while in high lamp mode....

Is the missing pixel thing a certainty when using HDMI, or is it just your projector. Anyone else using HDMI care to somment. If this is the case i might have to go the Sanyo Z3 :(

just want to know that does the ceiling mount suitable for AE500 works well with this one?

How does this baby shape up to the Matterhorn DLP offerings in terms of picture quality?

Noah, thanks for clearing up my confusion. The high-lamp vs. low-lamp in this scenario is due to the iris funtion only? Does the viewing mode alter this (Video vs. Cinema 1/2/3 vs. normal etc.) or do those modes just play with color temps?

I guess I am trying to determine, mentally, which is the best path from start-to-finish in setting up and calibrating this projector. Was the 950:1 initial, pre-calibration, CR measure in Video or Natural mode?

Hi,
First of all, I'm just a newbie in the projector scene but I've read a lot on various forums the last two months and saw some demos.
When I went to a shop for a demo of the AE700 they compared it to a Sharp XV Z200E and told me right away that once I would have seen the Sharp with a Matterhorn DLP I would not want an LCD projector anymore... However, the person in the shop had only just received his AE700 and wasn't able to test it himself yet. We installed both projectors, connected them to a progressive scan DVD-player with a component cable and projected on a 2,4m wide Projecta screen from about 4 meters away. On first sight the Sharp did seem to give better colors and a clearer picture, the AE700 seemed to show some slight VB.
As I knew the AE700 a little bit better than him, thanks to this forum :), I performed the flicker tweak until the VB was practically gone and adjusted the colors and gamma slightly. After these minor tweaks the AE700's picture was at least as good as that of the Sharp DLP projector. The shop owner was very impressed and told me that even he, a fierce DLP-fan, was starting to doubt that DLP is the only way to go for picture quality.
I left that shop with a few conclusions:
- the picture quality on the two was practically the same,
- the AE700 costs a lot less,
- the AE700 makes a lot less noise,
- the AE700 has a higher resolution which will allow me to view HD signals,
- the AE700 has a lot more tweaking possibilities
...and after reading some more good reviews here, my mind was made up :)
I've ordered the AE700 and should receive it in a week or so!
Can't wait...
(I've also pre-ordered the Philips DVP-900SA HDMI DVD-player with Faroudja DCDi)
;)

BTW, about the Flicker adjustment. It does make a difference. Went from seeing VB to bare seeing it post-adjustment. And yes, I have discerning eyes. And yes, my eyes operate much like the one-eyed monster (auto-pilot), but post-adjustment condition did not 'annoy' me like my failed saccadic-masking in the DLP realm. Also, at 1.75x I didn't see any any SDE. Admittedly, I was less prepared than I should have been to bring appropriate materials.

More screenshots of my system.

Link 1 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=261&stop=280)

Link 2 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=281&stop=286)



Regrats ;)

Aquila_BE,

Two questions:

1. How did brightness compare to the matterhorn?

2. Did you have the AE700 in cinema 1 mode? According the cine4home, the colors in cinema1 mode should have been very accurate. I am surprised you could tweak them without measurement tools and improve the image.

reaper

Well, I'm THRILLED with my 700 overall -- few quick comments:

1) First, I haven't seen this addressed much so I'll start with it: Lens Shift DOES affect image quality once you get to about 75% usage of it in any direction *AND are at or near max zoom. This is only observable in test patterns (avia or dve) or a computer desktop feed, not video. This problem is that it is impossible to focus the entire screen at once when shifted, you can focus the top left, then the bottom right is a little fuzzy; focus bottom right and top left is fuzzy. Not a huge problem, but I would recommend getting as close to center as possible. *This paragraph was edited to denote the fact that you must use near max zoom before lens shift degradation is observable.

2) Color uniformity (pink or green corners) NO ISSUE. In test patters, video or computer: NONE:

3)Overscan: 720P over DVI-HDMI from Powerstrip HTPC, I see the same 20 - 40 pixel vertical loss (no horizontal overscan) as everyone else on the computer desktop. I don't consider this a HORRIBLE issue as almost all display devices have overscan, but I will continue working to correct it.

4)Vertical Banding: There is none. I actually had some artificats(not vb, more like pixelization from poor decoding) that the girlfriend couldn't notice when using one dvd player on the HTPC, I switched to another player and the image looked REMARKABLE. FYI, I watched the first two Star Wars movies complete with Desert Scenes, Dagoba fog, and Snow Storms, no vb AT ALL.

5) Amazing lack of ScreenDoor. From 1 screen width away there is nothing, hell from 1 foot away its a challenge to see anything. At one width away there is occassional peek-a-boo lines, but its rare enough that I'm sticking with my huge image. The peek-a-boos disappear at about 1.3 screen widths and are not there using dynamic, normal or natural modes (these have more light and seem to *shine* it out)

Last comments are that I DID see VB and ScreenDoor effect on both the HS20 and AE500 units that I saw demos of. The 700 BLOWS both units away on both issues, I am very pleased :-D

Edit* Oh let me just add. GET THE IMAX HD DVDs if you have a HTPC!!!!!!From 1 screen width it's like flying, scary and exhilirating -- WOW!!!!

Originally posted by ianken
But the YPbPr only bit at the end is kind of odd. I guess this means it will only do it via comonent input. Still, that's cool.

From the manual:

CINEMA REALITY
[S-VIDEO/VIDEO/PC/HDMI/525i
(480i), 625i(576i), 1 125(1 080)/60i
and 1 125(1 080)/50i YPBPR only]

ON
Set to “ON” when you would like 24
frames per second pictures (such as
movies) to project the source
faithfully.

OFF
Set to “OFF” when the projected
pictures have problems with
captions or subtitles when the
setting is “ON”.

Thinking about the pixel response vs frame rate issue more last night, I wondered why wouldn't an LCD with 16ms response simply inverse telecine/do 3:2 pulldown on 24fps souce material, then decimate the resulting 60fps progressive frames to 48fps (48Hz) for the panels? This would eliminate the pan judder (2 * 24fps) and be below the 62.5ms response time of 16ms panels...

700 Owners, can I ask a few question.

I intend to ceiling mount my projector (either sanyo z3 or pana 700) but reading these forums the panasonic 700 isnt the best projector for ceiling mounting for the following reasons -

1. I will need to use max vertical lens shift (as top of screen is 1 foot from roof and want to flush mount projector) which will degrade picture sharpness?

2. If i ceiling mount, is the max vertical lens shift only 13% of screen height, which would give me only 6 or so inch to play with??

3. Using HDMI cables to projector leads to missing pixels?

4. Is the lens shift a pain to use? I used to have the Z1 and when u open flap, lens would move abit, and i was constantly moving lens shift wheels. With the 700 does the picture move when u go to twist lens shift knob to hold it in place?

thanks i like the 700 but these 4 things concern me. Please enlighten me on the above. thanks

1) At max shift you WILL have some picture degradation *especially if using alot of zoom, you may avoid it if you are long throwing it. I should point out that with DVI even the degraded points are better PQ than the best of any other connection. (The degrade is relatively minor and dvi IS wonderful) *Edited because I could only see evidence of Lens Shift degradation when using max zoom.

2)Depending on screen size 6 inches could be right for how much above (lotsa room to "play with" but you'll have a picture on your ceiling ;))

3)Some missing pixels, until someone finds the fix.

4)Lens shift very easy to use

Im looking to purchase one of these puppies. Can anyone suggest retailer to order from, preferably online as I live in the sticks (small town in South Dakota). Just shoot me a PM if you want.

I've found a few, but wanted to see if any if you had found a really good site to order from.

Thanks

Originally posted by jasallen
Well, I'm THRILLED with my 700 overall -- few quick comments:

1) First, I haven't seen this addressed much so I'll start with it: Lens Shift DOES affect image quality

Oh, I forgot, the shift only causes image degradation at or near max zoom too (I assume this is because you are only using the extreme ends of the physical lens when at both max zoom and max shift)

Edit: that should read "I only observed image degradation..." no telling what others are seeing.

Originally posted by Gn0m4
More screenshots of my system.

Link 1 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=261&stop=280)

Link 2 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=281&stop=286)



Regrats ;)

These are all AE700? Sorry i can't read spanish, only a little italian... :)

John

jasallen:

Thanks very much for your comments. You might want to go back and edit your two earlier posts with this clarification regarding the lens shift. That will prevent any confusion from arising. Someone may carefully read those detailed earlier posts and quickly skim over your short clarification.

Thanks for your observations, and keep them coming.

Pip

I still am not 100% on this point:

The Panny AE100/200/300/500 all project the picture above the projector (or "below" when upsidedown and ceiling mounted) while having the horizontal centred.

With zero lens shift on the AE700 sitting right side up, is the picture aimed above the projector or is it aimed straight ahead on centre to the lens?

If it is straight ahead on centre, this is a very significant change from the previous panny lcd projectors. I'd prefer it was not shooting on centre, and that it be projecting the image just as the older models do, because in my ceiling mount setup I would need to use vertical lens shift if it was on centre vertically. I want to use 0% vertical and 0% horizontal lens shift.

You might want to go back and edit your two earlier posts

Done. Thanks

Cpc, with zero lens shift you will be perpendicular to dead center on the screen. I have seen some people suggest that a static offset projector like the old panny is using basically the same functionality as a lens shifted one that is shifted up. IF that is the case than it might not be an issue? But, see my earlier posts about using too much lens shift and zoom at the same time.

Originally posted by reaper
Aquila_BE,

Two questions:

1. How did brightness compare to the matterhorn?

2. Did you have the AE700 in cinema 1 mode? According the cine4home, the colors in cinema1 mode should have been very accurate. I am surprised you could tweak them without measurement tools and improve the image.

reaper

Hey reaper,

We were in a fully darkened room and were looking at one projector at a time. They both were bright enough under these circumstances but I did notice that the AE700 was slightly brighter than the Sharp.

I'm afraid I only had about an hour to play with both the AE700 and the Sharp and I'm also new at this so the color adjustments were purely according to personal taste and trying to match the colors of the Sharp DLP projector which according to the shop owner were so much better. Applying some gamma corrections and using the color management system (with the crosshair) to adjust skintones a bit I believe I managed to get very good results (purely subjective without any measurement equipment). The amount of possibilities to change and optimize colors on the AE700 is amazing! You can certainly spend a long time tweaking if you're picky :p
I'm not sure but I think it was set on Natural when we started tweaking with the colors.

Wow: Brighter!? Very cool. Matterhorns are typically some of the brightest DLP projectors out there.

You may want to try switching to cinema1 mode if you return to the shop to get more accurate colors. I wonder if your impressions of brightness would change in this mode, though.

A couple things to keep in mind if you return to the shop...

reaper

Originally posted by lungan71
Thanks Grubert. Guess I was just surprised that they despite dynamic iris only speced a CR of 2000:1 when Sony claims 5000:1 with similar technology. Panasonic hasn't exactly underspeced their previous LCD-projectors so why would they now.

Yeah, but Panasonic has pretty much completely eliminated screendoor effect, Sony hasn't. Each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. For just over $2k, I'll take the Panasonic before I take the Sony for about $3.5k. Same resolution...is it really worth $1.5k for extra contrast? I've always thought 2000:1 was plenty. LOL.

Originally posted by ProjectorCentral

First, consider the Panasonic AE700. This is a 1280x720 resolution projector rated at 2000:1 contrast and 1000 ANSI lumens. If you are a new reader to this site, 2000:1 contrast represents a new and vital breakthrough in LCD contrast performance. The increase in contrast is achieved in part through a dynamically reconfiguring variable aperture (iris), that adjusts itself to the brightness level of the image on a frame by frame basis. Practically speaking, it means you get better color saturation, shadow detail, and black levels than ever before from LCD technology. Furthermore, the AE700 appears to beat every other projector under $10,000 in one extremely remarkable way: pixel structure is almost invisible. Standing 12 inches from a 100" diagonal screen, the pixel structure is barely detectable. We did not expect that an LCD projector would ever outperform a high resolution DLP product in the area of pixelation, but last weekend we saw it live.

Expletive,

Yes, all screenshots are from Pana700 - VGA - HTPC - Windvd 6.
I´m waiting for my "DVI - HDMI" cable, and my config "Fddshow".


Regrats :)

"The high-lamp vs. low-lamp in this scenario is due to the iris funtion only? "

Autoiris need have any connection to lamp mode; the 500's AI mode is essentially an autolamp mode. I'm not up on how Pan inplemented it on the 700.

Help Panny 700 and HDMI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the 700 and a Denon 2910 DVD player, my HDMI lead has just arrived and when I hook it up I get snow then a picture then a blue screen the nothing cycling every few seconds.

I know the player is OK.

Any Ideas

Did you set the output on the Denon to HDMI output?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Did you set the output on the Denon to HDMI output?

Yep and ran through all the formats on both PAL and NTSC

My only concern right now is the expected LCD panel life span and possible misaligned panels.

Are the Panasonics well regarded in terms of their LCD projectors not developing discolorations and dead pixels over the seemingly short span of time people use them before buying new PJ's?

What are people finding on the AE700 in terms of dead pixels, discolorations (failing panels?), and misaligned panels? Better or worse than Sony or Sanyo?

Dan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
My only concern right now is the expected LCD panel life span and possible misaligned panels.

Are the Panasonics well regarded in terms of their LCD projectors not developing discolorations and dead pixels over the seemingly short span of time people use them before buying new PJ's?

Dan

Dan,
I owned a Panasonic LC75u for a year and about 1200 hours of use. In that time I needed new polarizers to eliminate a yellow stain that had cropped up. This was covered under a warranty repair. I also received the unit with about three stuck pixels and two or three more developed over the year I had it My panel was misaligned slightly by 1 pixel or so from day one and they could not improve on this when it was in for service. I was glad to have a 3 year warranty on my old Panasonic ad am disappointed that the 700 comes only with a one year warranty.


Tom

Originally posted by Expletive
These are all AE700? Sorry i can't read spanish, only a little italian... :)

John


http://babelfish.altavista.com/


But if you need a translator to convert the thread title of "Panasonic PT-AE700" to english, you may want to take an english refresher course. :)

Just playin'


Either way, you can copy-paste the links from Gn0m4 into the site above where it says "Translate a webpage" and chose spanish to english conversion, and i'll translate (most of the words) for you enough to read what's going on.

Originally posted by cpc
I still am not 100% on this point:

The Panny AE100/200/300/500 all project the picture above the projector (or "below" when upsidedown and ceiling mounted) while having the horizontal centred.

With zero lens shift on the AE700 sitting right side up, is the picture aimed above the projector or is it aimed straight ahead on centre to the lens?

If it is straight ahead on centre, this is a very significant change from the previous panny lcd projectors. I'd prefer it was not shooting on centre, and that it be projecting the image just as the older models do, because in my ceiling mount setup I would need to use vertical lens shift if it was on centre vertically. I want to use 0% vertical and 0% horizontal lens shift.

This probably needs to be stated again: Projectors that have the image displayed above/below the projector line are just using a FIXED lens shift. A true 0% veritical and 0% horizontal shift would result in a projected image that is dead center. What you see in the AE500 is a fixed, albiet small, vertical shift. If you really want it just above/below the projector then put it there and you will be no better and no worse off than the AE500.

Can anyone comment on their experience with the AE700 vs. the L300u? There are likely many L300u owners that are considering upgrading. However, there is always concern of whether the expense is worth the increase in PQ. Specifically, with DVD viewing (480P or 1080i), is there improved black level, sharpness, or significant change in contrast?

Does anyone have a sense, besides the published specs, if the AE700 will be better in ambient light than the Optoma H77 (i.e. which is brighter)?

I know this is an obscure question for the thread bu i figured i would ask. :)

John

Hmm only a 1 year warranty ? Here in Australia its 2 years. Haha its a rare occasion we get a better deal. Here ithe ae700 is cheaper, has a longer warranty and was released earlier. I am very suprised.

Originally posted by TCroly
Dan,
....
I also received the unit with about three stuck pixels and two or three more developed over the year I had it My panel was misaligned slightly by 1 pixel or so from day one and they could not improve on this when it was in for service. I was glad to have a 3 year warranty on my old Panasonic ad am disappointed that the 700 comes only with a one year warranty.


Tom

I asked someone at Visual Apex about stuck pixels. She said that recently, Panasonic has changed their process in such a way that dead pixels are very rare. Visual Apex no longer will do pixel checks before sending out projectors, because of how rare stuck pixels are.

As far as pixels becoming stuck, over time, I would worry more about a DLP projector. It seems more likely that a bit of bread crumb, or something would get stuck in the DLP array, and cause a pixel to be stuck.

Originally posted by jasallen

...

Edit* Oh let me just add. GET THE IMAX HD DVDs if you have a HTPC!!!!!!From 1 screen width it's like flying, scary and exhilirating -- WOW!!!!

Thank you very much for the in-depth review!

Where should I got to get a DVD with HD content? How would I know if my laptop can play it?

I found the following IMAX film on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005BCKI/002-4224527-9608810?v=glance

Is it in HD?

Thanks!

Originally posted by SingleA
Thank you very much for the in-depth review!

Where should I got to get a DVD with HD content? How would I know if my laptop can play it?

I found the following IMAX film on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005BCKI/002-4224527-9608810?v=glance

Is it in HD?

Thanks!

http://www.wmvhd.com/

There are some stringent hardware requirements, and you MUST have an HTPC to play them, but SO MUCH FUN!

Only looked at that Amazon link real quick but it looks no, but you'll see Amazon recommends one called "Coral Reef Adventures" and it says WMVHD edition -- that is one. Search amazon for "WMV HD" or "WMVHD" and you'll come up with most of the limited number of movies that exist. The link at the top there is the official page. There are only a dozen or so in existence right now. The only "hollywood" movie I know of is T2 Extreme Edition's 2nd disk is WMV HD.

Check out Atom Films HD too, I haven't checked them out yet, but I plan too.

Originally posted by RobZ
Can anyone comment on their experience with the AE700 vs. the L300u? There are likely many L300u owners that are considering upgrading. However, there is always concern of whether the expense is worth the increase in PQ. Specifically, with DVD viewing (480P or 1080i), is there improved black level, sharpness, or significant change in contrast? Yes, yes, and yes.

I'm not sure where you are in Texas, but here in Austin we have a few fellow HTers with AE300's and while I have not yet had the chance to do a direct comparison, I am very familiar with the performance capabilities of both the AE300, AE500, and AE700 and the AE700 is a significant improvement of both!

In fact just last week we did a direct comparison between the AE500 and AE700 at a dedicated HT in Austin, and the AE700 had noticeably better black level, shadow detail, and SDE. It appeared to show better detail, and color accuracy - and most obvious was the absence of any vertical banding compared to the host's AE500 which when viewing the same images showed gross levels of VB. Near the beginning of chapter three in Master & Commander where the camera pans across the ocean as the ship turns the picture completely broke apart with VB on every area of the image, but on the AE700 in the same scene it looked absolutely perfect.

If you are near Austin, hopefully sometime this week or next I'll have a chance to bring it over to another member's dedicated theater:

http://www.luehrmann.com/photos/HTA-June2004/images/IMG_1909.jpg
http://www.luehrmann.com/photos/HTA-June2004/images/IMG_1905.jpg

As you can see he has an AE300 and if I recall correctly he also has a 110" Carada screen just like your system i believe. This should answer any question you have regarding the improvements of the AE700 over the AE300.


Nils Luehrmann

I wanted to weigh in on the opinions of the Panasonic 700. I received mine Friday and put it through only the most basic tests so far.

I should state that I have been viewing digitally projected images for well over 15 years, from the early Hughes light valve projectors up to high-end CRT models, with the last 5 years in a dedicated, light-controlled theater in my basement. My main projector now is an Electrohome 9500LC, which puts out a most amazing image. But it is a temperamental beast and requires plenty of TLC to put out its best.

Its latest hiccough pushed me to begin thinking that a backup projector would be nice to have in those few instances where I need to take the 200lb. behemoth down from the ceiling to have work done. I began thinking that a light, portable digital projector would be a nice thing to have. I found the CEDIA review of the Panasonic 700 and on impulse put my name on a preorder list. My wife, frustrated more I think with my moping around when the theater is “down,” urged me to go through with the purchase. But enough about me.

The 700 is such a simple device. I had it set up in about 15 minutes and within ½ an hour I was watching a DVD through my HTPC. I am very pleased with the projector. Rich, vibrant colors, very sharp detail, bright image, and did I say setup was a breeze?

As a CRT projector lover, I wish to emphasize one point. Claims that there is no screendoor effect with this projector are simply not true. Scenes where there is a lot of white on the screen and cut scenes that transition from one shot to another regularly, if momentarily, display the digital reminder that you are looking at pixels. But the Panasonic 700 is such an improvement over other LCDs I have endured in countless corporate meetings that I couldn’t get too annoyed with the effect. It is without doubt the best LCD-projected image I have ever seen.

For those of you contemplating and agonizing over your first purchase and leap into the home theater hobby, you will not go wrong with the Panasonic 700. Although not perfect (what technology is?), the bottom line is that this little projector puts out an outstanding image for a very reasonable price. I doubt I’ll give up my 9500LC (though my wife can’t see why not, the image of the Panasonic to her is just as good). But when I need a backup, or want to hook the kids up to the x-box for a party in the family room, or for countless other instances where this handy little unit will be called on, I am a very satisfied owner.

I believe DLPs protect the imager area so that no dust or other particles can get in there and block a mirror. The effect of any particles would be so completely devastating it almost has to be that way. And I've never heard of any reports of DLP pixels "sticking" over time. But I'd also add that nearly all reports of LCD pixels getting stuck over time are to be taken with a grain of salt. There is a much better than 99% chance that the only stuck pixels you'll ever see on your LCD are the ones you see out of the box.

Mark

Originally posted by com1mph
I wanted to weigh in on the opinions of the Panasonic 700. I received mine Friday and put it through only the most basic tests so far.

I should state that I have been viewing digitally projected images for well over 15 years, from the early Hughes light valve projectors up to high-end CRT models, with the last 5 years in a dedicated, light-controlled theater in my basement. My main projector now is an Electrohome 9500LC, which puts out a most amazing image. But it is a temperamental beast and requires plenty of TLC to put out its best.

Its latest hiccough pushed me to begin thinking that a backup projector would be nice to have in those few instances where I need to take the 200lb. behemoth down from the ceiling to have work done. I began thinking that a light, portable digital projector would be a nice thing to have. I found the CEDIA review of the Panasonic 700 and on impulse put my name on a preorder list. My wife, frustrated more I think with my moping around when the theater is “down,” urged me to go through with the purchase. But enough about me.

The 700 is such a simple device. I had it set up in about 15 minutes and within ½ an hour I was watching a DVD through my HTPC. I am very pleased with the projector. Rich, vibrant colors, very sharp detail, bright image, and did I say setup was a breeze?

As a CRT projector lover, I wish to emphasize one point. Claims that there is no screendoor effect with this projector are simply not true. Scenes where there is a lot of white on the screen and cut scenes that transition from one shot to another regularly, if momentarily, display the digital reminder that you are looking at pixels. But the Panasonic 700 is such an improvement over other LCDs I have endured in countless corporate meetings that I couldn’t get too annoyed with the effect. It is without doubt the best LCD-projected image I have ever seen.

For those of you contemplating and agonizing over your first purchase and leap into the home theater hobby, you will not go wrong with the Panasonic 700. Although not perfect (what technology is?), the bottom line is that this little projector puts out an outstanding image for a very reasonable price. I doubt I’ll give up my 9500LC (though my wife can’t see why not, the image of the Panasonic to her is just as good). But when I need a backup, or want to hook the kids up to the x-box for a party in the family room, or for countless other instances where this handy little unit will be called on, I am a very satisfied owner.

Any comments on contrast/black level?

John

Does anyone have a sense, besides the published specs, if the AE700 will be better in ambient light than the Optoma H77 ]

I've been watching the projector with a 60 watt bulb lamp in the room with a normal shade on it. The projector is set to normal mode, not dynamic (dynamic is supposed to be on for amibient light situations) and I find the projector very watchable, especially for HDTV and SDTV. Depending on the DVD, you lose a bit of detail but it's still very good.

Originally posted by John Tuohy
Anydaygolfer,

How does the picture compare to the NEC?

thanks

Just a little background first. For those of you who don't know NEC XG-110 CRT projector, it's original MSRP was $25,000 and it has a huge 8" Red, Blue, Green guns in a huge 140 lbs chassis with 7 fans. It's contrast ratio is 20,000:1, resolution capability of 2,500 x 1,600 pixels, and 1,200 lumen output and probably the best color balance of all crt projectors. Mine was tuned by Doug Baisey who is the recognized expert in the industry with 15 years experience as NEC projector engineer. Doug had dialed this projector in using test equipemnt to a phenomenal picture at 768P using my htpc with Clarity Mod Radeon 9700 card.

I was extremely happy with this projector but I faced some issues when I knew I was moving. During transport there can be mechanical shift of the lens which means I have to go thru the whole set up process again with fine tuning that can cost $650 besides the cost of re-inforcing the ceiling to mount this vehemoth. Besides, I couldn't stand to hear the 7 noisy fans and my wife had a fit about it's size with the decor. So, even though I was in love with the picture, I knew I had to find a digital projector which can be mounted to the read bookshelf in our new entertainment room. BTW, I had purchased NEC XG-110 for $2,100 and sold it on ebay for $2,000 and I didn't want to spend too much more than this for a digital projector. Along came CEDIA and when I saw Panyy AE700, I knew I wanted it.

I must admit I was a little skeptical when I first received the unit and saw how small and light AE700 was and wondering if this thing can make any decent picture at all. I had purchased 96 inch horizontal screen with high contrast grey 0.8 gain screen in hdtv aspect ration in preparation for the projector. When I first set up, I used Monster 400 6 meter length HDMI/DVI cable connecting directly from RCA DTC210 Directv satelite receiver to the projector. As I posted earlier I had issues with very colorful psychelic picture. So, I used the analog R,G,B,H,V signal form my Clarity Mod Radeon 9700 card to HD15 input of the projector and a seperate analog component connection from satellite receiver to the projector. BTW, when I returned the HDMI/DVI cable to GoodGuys, store manager had the audacity to suggest that it didn't work because the cable has a proper direction and this cable goes from HDMI to DVI not DVI to HDMI. LOL. As long as I get my money back I didn't argue. But now I'm wondering if this is true or not.

I'm just going by my memory of seeing some of the same DVD sources thru HTPC but NEC by comparison does have better contrast, color and detail akin to seeing a 3 dimensional image where as panny AE700 lack some of that 3 dimensional image perception with some grainyness. But, hey so does other digital projectors even at $12K price range. One thing that stood out is some motion artifacts during fast movement sequences in the picture. Otherwise, I have no complaints whatsoever and I am happy with the pciture quality that I can live with. I say the picture is 90% there. I know that I can only stand to gain by making fine tune adjstments via AVIA with test equipment and getting the digital connection to work. I can't believe how much progress digital projectors have made and I can't believe I actually bought one. Not having to deal with constant tweaking of crt projectors and fan noise is well worth the price of admission folks.

Regarding the poster that needed full lens-shift to mount on the ceiling:

<RANT>
I bet most of us will need to do - that "63% shift" is marketing hogwash given the precedent of their other projectors. So much for using the horizontal shift!
</RANT>

Does anyone have opinions/experience as to whether the degradation due to a small amount of keystone correction is worse than that due to the full lens-shift?

You could tilt the mount ever-so-slightly to reduce the lens-shift needed. But, I'm a newbie with no PJ experience, so is keystone correction strictly a no-no amongst the pros?

E

a fellow AVSer directed me to an importer selling the 700 at a significant discount. The catch is that the OSD is in Japanese. The site further states that:

"However, the Panasonic TH-AE500 and TH-AE700 come with English manuals with translations of the on-screen menu, which only needs to be set up once anyways".

This will be my first PJ so I'm not sure how often I need to tweak it. Do you guys buy the line that "it only needs to be set up once anyways"

If its relatively infrequent the PITA factor would be worth it.

Does anyone have a link to the manual in pdf?

I thought I read somewhere that if you imported a PJ from japan, the warranty applies in japan, ie. you'd need to ship it to japan to have it serviced if needed. I could be wrong though.

Speaking from the experience of using a Panasonic AE100 and L200, and its likely the same for the 300, 500 and AE700...Keystone correction use is blasphemy. NEVER use keystone adjustment in a home theatre setup. All your pixel perfect inputs, proper scaling and good de-interlacing are blown apart by non-uniform scaling. Even 1% keystoning is image death. It is un-acceptable.

CPC: so if Keystoning is blasphemy is lens shift OK?

Borg: yes you're correct, if there is a problem within a year, I have to pay $100 to ship it back to Japan for a warranty repair.

Originally posted by cpc
Speaking from the experience of using a Panasonic AE100 and L200, and its likely the same for the 300, 500 and AE700...Keystone correction use is blasphemy. NEVER use keystone adjustment in a home theatre setup. All your pixel perfect inputs, proper scaling and good de-interlacing are blown apart by non-uniform scaling. Even 1% keystoning is image death. It is un-acceptable.

Totally agree. For those non-believers try keystone correction with a computer desktop on the screen and see what it does to the text.

Originally posted by mikeyc
This will be my first PJ so I'm not sure how often I need to tweak it. Do you guys buy the line that "it only needs to be set up once anyways"

If its relatively infrequent the PITA factor would be worth it.

Does anyone have a link to the manual in pdf?

Well, I calibrate my CRT once every 3-4 months before I watch a DVD or have friends over to watch a movie. I don't have experience with digital displays, so I'm not sure whether the settings need adjustment from time to time.

Originally posted by dazbug
700 Owners, can I ask a few question.

I intend to ceiling mount my projector (either sanyo z3 or pana 700) but reading these forums the panasonic 700 isnt the best projector for ceiling mounting for the following reasons -

2. If i ceiling mount, is the max vertical lens shift only 13% of screen height, which would give me only 6 or so inch to play with??



I also wanted to flush mount this PJ to the ceiling. I thought the max lens shift is 63% of screen height. I understand that the PQ is reduced as more lens shift is used, but the WAF requires that I mount this as close to the ceiling as possible.

I have a 7' 8" ceiling height in my basement where the PJ will be placed. I'm planning on a 50" x 89" screen. How close to the ceiling will I have to mount the screen to make this setup work?

Oh..and I have a great deal of length in the room so I am flexible on how far from the screen I can mount the PJ.

Originally posted by Souki
Well, I calibrate my CRT once every 3-4 months before I watch a DVD or have friends over to watch a movie. I don't have experience with digital displays, so I'm not sure whether the settings need adjustment from time to time.
I am not sure which amazes me more, that your CRT needs calibration that often or you watch DVD's that infrequently. :) My CRT was calibrated (by somenoe else) four days shy of a year ago and still looks pretty dang good without any touch-ups.

From reading on AVS these past 2-3 years, I have gathered that the lamps tend to have a color shift and or drop in brightness after some initial hours (100-200?), but really have no experience to speak of here.

Originally posted by mikeyc


Does anyone have a link to the manual in pdf?

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_PT-AE700U.pdf

By the way, I sent you a pm.

Originally posted by Rgb
There was a long recent discussion of this in another thread.

I think that LCD monitors that accept greater than 60Hz at their analog inputs will convert the refresh to 60Hz for the panels, just as all under $3500 LCD projectors do.

72Hz = 0.013888 seconds, or 13.8 ms.

If a pixel can't respond faster than 16ms (= 62.5Hz) (typical LCD panels in projector's currently), then how can it change in response to new frame information, which may contain a changed pixel, every 13.8ms?

It's not a coincidence that the AE700 converts all inputs to 60Hz, as it's panels are 16ms, or 62.5Hz capable. It can respond to image changes on a pixel basis 62.5 times a second or less, no greater.

Per Scott B's post, next years D5 panels will respond at 83.3Hz, or 12ms. They should be capable of 72p (24fps *3) judder free playback of film sources.


You're mixing up refresh rate and frame rate (response time). 72Hz refresh rate does not require 13.8 ms response time. If you want to draw 72 unique individual frames per second then yes the response time must be at most 13.8ms and it must run at 72Hz. But the panels don't need any specific response time to run at a particular refresh rate.

By your reasoning all lcd monitors must have at most 16 ms response times to run at 60Hz. Clearly, that is not correct. I run my lcd monitor at 60Hz and the response time is on 25ms. The screen is refreshed 60 times per second, but it can only display 40 unique frames per second. This means when a new frame is drawn it slightly overlaps the previous one. This is what causes ghosting in fast paced games. I can also run my monitor at 75Hz refresh rate. It will refresh the screen 75 times per second, but cause more overlapping between frames.

I just placed an order for a AE700 and started researching the best DVD player to match it. I wanted a player that could use the HDMI port on the AE700 which uses HDCP. I understand that HDMI has to incorporate HDCP as part of its spec.

Several DVD players output DVI as does my ATI Radeon video card without HDCP. Will these work on my Panny AE700? Will my DVI video card work with the Panny AE700? Can I use a DVD player that uses HDMI without HDCP (if they exist)? Are my choices restricted to DVD player that only outputs HDMI and HDCP?

(cross posted in DVD players)

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am not sure which amazes me more, that your CRT needs calibration that often or you watch DVD's that infrequently. :) My CRT was calibrated (by somenoe else) four days shy of a year ago and still looks pretty dang good without any touch-ups.

From reading on AVS these past 2-3 years, I have gathered that the lamps tend to have a color shift and or drop in brightness after some initial hours (100-200?), but really have no experience to speak of here.

1. IIRC, DVE says to recalibrate it from time to time. Especially when you move the display device. It is NTSC after all.
2. If you change sources, you'll need to redo the calibration. Most of the FP only has one input for each type of connection.
3. I like tweaking, even if I end up making no changes at all. I just like to confirm the basic calibration before an event.

Originally posted by DV8
Several DVD players output DVI as does my ATI Radeon video card without HDCP. Will these work on my Panny AE700? Will my DVI video card work with the Panny AE700? Can I use a DVD player that uses HDMI without HDCP (if they exist)? Are my choices restricted to DVD player that only outputs HDMI and HDCP?
(cross posted in DVD players)

AFAIK, HDCP protects the source material. So if the source material is not HDCP protected, then you won't have any problems. Kinda like how Macrovision & Region code works.

A display never enforces HDCP. Only a source enforces HDCP.

mikeyc,

I calibrated my L300U with my AVIA (non-Pro) DVD after about 20 hours on the lamp. I did a thorough calibration after 50 lamp hours (low lamp mode is all I use). Yesterday (18 months later) I rechecked the calibration, 684 lamp hours, still low power) and found that it has not changed. The unit has been moved about 6 times inbetween (it gets put away when I'm traveling).

Depending on your use (and how you handle the PJ and how cool it runs), I would not expect the AE700 would need calibratiing any more often than every 200 - 500 hours. My PJ has plenty of ventilation and I clean the filter before every use.

I had about the same experince with my very old Sharp LCD PJ.

Hi guys...I maybe getting the AE700 Projector soon...but I need some clarification from you experts on the connection issue of HDMI. Currently I am using DENON 3910 DVDP and it has separate HDMI connectivity and DVI-D connectivity (which I think was really cool by the way as I have more choices of connection)...

But the question that lingers my mind is AE700 model is using a female HDMI connection at the back panel. Should I get;

1) DVI signal conversion to HDMI signal adaptor

2) HDMI signal conversion to DVI-D signal adaptor

3) Get an HDMI cable for direct link (I am quite sure that DENON 3910 is able to support HDCP-compliancy connection)...but the myth of HDMI is able to carry signal at a farther cable length as compared to DVI cable still make me ponder whether issit true?

Can anyone advise me on this DVI/HDMI connection issue? Thanks a million.

Finally ordered a projector !! After 9 months of dithering over various models i ordered a ae700 :)

When i reflect back on what models crossed my mind it proves quite amusing. I seriously, at various times, contemplated all these models but for various reasons was never truly comfortable enough to commit. I will be driving it all from a HTPC .

Benq 6100 - cheap easy option but it never truly fit my room and screen size
Benq 6200 - also good value in Oz and intrigued me being driven from a htpc but once again room placement issues
X1 - have run this at my home and really didnt have too many complaints. if the ae700 can give me this contrast level with a greater resolution i will be happy.
4805 - saw a crappy demo of this and while i am sure it would look great in my setup i object to the price variance Infocus have in Oz relative to the US. They lost my business.
Z2 - Once again badly priced here.
ae500 - might have gone for this at the time i looked at it but its feeble zoom and no lens shift made it a bitch to place.
tw200 - i liked this but once again a rip off in Oz.
tx100 - was very very close to buying this and i started off the AVS thread on this unit that is now up to 1570 replies. I saw an in home demo and it didnt blow me away. If it had i would own one.
nec 1100 - i had a great deal offered on this and was very close to buying it but once again we get screwed here with no Panamorph included.

ae700 - great price in Oz. Easy room placement. Acceptable contrast. Quiet. Paid $2100 USD which for Australia is great. Should be here Saturday :)

Well done Ben. Let us know how you get on with it.

Originally posted by Durabolin
Finally ordered a projector !! After 9 months of dithering over various models i ordered a ae700 :)

When i reflect back on what models crossed my mind it proves quite amusing. I seriously, at various times, contemplated all these models but for various reasons was never truly comfortable enough to commit. I will be driving it all from a HTPC .

Benq 6100 - cheap easy option but it never truly fit my room and screen size
Benq 6200 - also good value in Oz and intrigued me being driven from a htpc but once again room placement issues
X1 - have run this at my home and really didnt have too many complaints. if the ae700 can give me this contrast level with a greater resolution i will be happy.
4805 - saw a crappy demo of this and while i am sure it would look great in my setup i object to the price variance Infocus have in Oz relative to the US. They lost my business.
Z2 - Once again badly priced here.
ae500 - might have gone for this at the time i looked at it but its feeble zoom and no lens shift made it a bitch to place.
tw200 - i liked this but once again a rip off in Oz.
tx100 - was very very close to buying this and i started off the AVS thread on this unit that is now up to 1570 replies. I saw an in home demo and it didnt blow me away. If it had i would own one.
nec 1100 - i had a great deal offered on this and was very close to buying it but once again we get screwed here with no Panamorph included.

ae700 - great price in Oz. Easy room placement. Acceptable contrast. Quiet. Paid $2100 USD which for Australia is great. Should be here Saturday :)

Congrats on your purchase. I ordered my AE700 yesterday after going thru a similar process.

How are you planning on driving the AE700 from your HTPC? I have an ATI video card with DVI out but the AE700 requires HDMI in. Since the 700 implements HDCP in its HDMI interface, will the DVI out from the video card work to drive the 700? I have a DVI to VGA adapter for the ATI video card but would like to go all digital.

How are you driving the 700 from your HTPC?

Originally posted by desray2k
Hi guys...I maybe getting the AE700 Projector soon...but I need some clarification from you experts on the connection issue of HDMI. Currently I am using DENON 3910 DVDP and it has separate HDMI connectivity and DVI-D connectivity (which I think was really cool by the way as I have more choices of connection)...

But the question that lingers my mind is AE700 model is using a female HDMI connection at the back panel. Should I get;

1) DVI signal conversion to HDMI signal adaptor

2) HDMI signal conversion to DVI-D signal adaptor

3) Get an HDMI cable for direct link (I am quite sure that DENON 3910 is able to support HDCP-compliancy connection)...but the myth of HDMI is able to carry signal at a farther cable length as compared to DVI cable still make me ponder whether issit true?

Can anyone advise me on this DVI/HDMI connection issue? Thanks a million.

I picked up this Monster Cable Male HDMI to Female DVI (http://www.monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=2377) adapter at Tweeter for 30 bucks. It works well. Eventually I'll probably get a direct DVI to HDMI cable. I've seen a 15 footer go for about 60 bucks online.

Originally posted by TCroly
Dan,
I owned a Panasonic LC75u for a year and about 1200 hours of use. In that time I needed new polarizers to eliminate a yellow stain that had cropped up. This was covered under a warranty repair. I also received the unit with about three stuck pixels and two or three more developed over the year I had it My panel was misaligned slightly by 1 pixel or so from day one and they could not improve on this when it was in for service. I was glad to have a 3 year warranty on my old Panasonic ad am disappointed that the 700 comes only with a one year warranty.


Tom

Panny 711xu here (slightly earlier model of the 75u). LCD aging issue here as well. Polarizers replaced under warranty during the first year of use. No pixel or misalignment issues.

Well i may have this totally wrong but i am pretty sure you can use a regular dvi out from your video card. The fact that the hdmi input is hdcp compliant doesnt mean the input source must be. As i understand it all this means is that if a certain source (say a high def STB) requires a HDCP handshake with the output device (ae700) it is able to do so.

I plan to order a dvi to hdmi cable from RAM, one of the forum spnsors above.

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_cables.html

Fully compatible: backwards and forwards.

Basically it's like this, HDMI is DVI-D+

Part of the HDMI specification is the DVI-D specification, it uses the exact same signal (no signal conversion) just a different pinout and more high-speed looking connector -- strictly a looks issue. HDMI is required to support HDCP whereas with DVI-D it's an option, and HDMI does not support analog signals at all: no DVI-I option.

The other part of HDMI is support for digital sound. (Edit: sorry I typo'd here and before it said "DVI")

The choice of putting in an HDMI instead of a DVI-D plug on a unit that DOESN'T support sound is stricly a styling choice -- it's the newer thing and they thought the unit would look cooler that way. But had they put an HDCP compliant DVI-D port in, it would work they same, and yes, could still have been driven by an HDMI device (remember both forward AND backward compatible).

In closing: HDMI is DVI

*EDIT*
and HDCP is only relevant on either one if your using an HDCP protected source (ie DVD). If you are and both your source player and display support HDCP you are in business. If the source material is not protected (as virtually nothing currently is, but that should change; no idea when) then HDCP isn't relevant.

I cannot remember from this weekend's visit if there was light spill from the two air inlets on the one air outlet. Can someone check on this? Also, the air outlet is on the front of the unit. The splines (fins) are directing air either to the left or right, but I cannot remember that either--can someone check for me? The pictures seem to show that hot air coming out of the unit is being directed to cross the optical path.

The air is blown to the right and there is no issue with it being in the optical path.

There is some light spillage from the outlet vents, didn't bother me at all, but I know some people find any spillage at to be completely unacceptable.

I expect there to be some light spill, but I ask for hushbox design. :)

FYI, I was just checking the websites for both the vendors below and VA requires a 15% restocking fee if the 700 is returned, while PP alows for a 7 day tryout period (as long as the lamp hrs < 4hrs) with no restocking fee. The the cost savings from VA may or may not be worth it depending on your situation.

John

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Well, they don't know what they are talking about. Forum sponsor ProjectorPeople just shipped 40 of them (I was #49 on their list). They don't seem to know when more are coming. Since other forum sponsor Visual Apex already dropped prices (which still perplexes me) and says they should ship before month end, I decided to switch my order over to them (which also buys me time as we hear all the feedback from new owners this week and next).

Lol - i ordered TX100 some time ago, but couple days ago company said that it will no longer be able to ship TX100 for previously agreed price.
So i have gone to different company and it offered Hitachi TX100 and Panasonic AE700 for same price (still good price).
Reading all reviews i will gladly buy AE700 without second thought except one small factor - i measured yesteday my room and to use AE700 in that room i will need to have zoom at ~1.7 and use ~45-50% vertical lens shift.
And now i read that lens shift causes degradation on AE700 =(

Anyone with AE700 can check how much picture degradation you will have with that amount of zoom/lens shift on medium sized screen (~2m width)?

Thanks!

I was checking out the 700 manual to see how the ceiling mounting / lens shift works. Just wanted to check to see if I'm understanding how this works correctly. Since the projector projects the image directly straight ahead if I mounted the projector on a shelf at the direct center of the screen then no lens shift would be required, correct?

And if I mounted it flush on the ceiling (assuming the center of the lens is ~3" below the ceiling) and the top of the screen was 3" down from the ceiling (so center of lens lines up with the top of the screen), then I would need to use 50% of the lens shift to center the image?

John

Originally posted by jcg
FYI, I was just checking the websites for both the vendors below and VA requires a 15% restocking fee if the 700 is returned, while PP alows for a 7 day tryout period (as long as the lamp hrs < 4hrs) with no restocking fee. The the cost savings from VA may or may not be worth it depending on your situation. John
John, let's hope you can install and configure the unit within four hours or it'll be 15% on a higher invoice with PP.

As someone that would tweak, I bet I could easily consume four hours even if I had Colorfacts/SMART-III and filters on-hand at the time of received the unit. Also, PP will not let you return the unit at all if you have more than 10 hours on the lamp.

BTW, how in the world would any vendor know that you reset the lamp clock? :D

Originally posted by TheFerret

BTW, how in the world would any vendor know that you reset the lamp clock? :D

Service menu ... :D
You'd be surprised how many times people try to pull that "fast one". :rolleyes:

The long and short is ... mounting, tweaking, dead pixel check, shaking your head for rainbows, WAF, buyers remorse and everything else you want to throw at a projector purchase ... if you don't know you want the projector within 4 lamp hours, you have a serious problem.

While I value this thread tremendously seeing as I have a 700 on pre-order, I'm having trouble keeping up with it.

I read this thread every 2-3 days, but even then, I have an enormous amount of reading to do. And there seem to be several conversations/topics being discussed simultaneously (which is both good and bad).

For those of us who "only" check every 2-3 days, could someone maybe provide a quick summary of any major points/findings made lately (ie, in the last few days' posts). For instance, something about 'filters' came up, but that's all I really know.

Perhaps this is a silly idea, and may just lead to more re-hashing, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Admittedly four hours is not much time. But it does allow you to look for stuck pixels, severe VB or uniformity problems. It is also an provides an opportunity to buy sight unseen with a bit less risk.

I don't know about the Panasonic, but many projectors have a resetable lamp timer, and a
non-resetable total operations timer.

Pip

Eric, good point, but this just re-enforces my position on the matter. Four hours means nothing to someone that realizes they'll spend much more time tweaking it. And what happens to the 1-3 hour returned units? Someone (vendor) posted on their website that they open the projector and flat-panel display products to verify against yadda, yadda, yadda ... and you know yadda's cause a lot of problem :) How does one know if this is a returned unit being pushed onto them?

Ah, the world of [dis]trust.

Navin, the discussion on filters came from tweak-discussions which included the Cine4home test-work they did on their website. They managed to pull about 2050:1 CR using calibration equipment and filters to inhibit the green and forward the red to color balance for maximum contrast. BTW, any further ETA on your unit? My offer still stands. :)

Originally posted by Kroot
i will need to have zoom at ~1.7 and use ~45-50% vertical lens shift.
And now i read that lens shift causes degradation on AE700 =(

Anyone with AE700 can check how much picture degradation you will have with that amount of zoom/lens shift on medium sized screen (~2m width)?

Thanks!

You should not have any noticeable degradation there if you are really only using 50% of the lens shift (lens centered about quarter of the way up or down the screen for vertical shift)


Originally posted by jcg
I was checking out the 700 manual to see how the ceiling mounting / lens shift works. Just wanted to check to see if I'm understanding how this works correctly. Since the projector projects the image directly straight ahead if I mounted the projector on a shelf at the direct center of the screen then no lens shift would be required, correct?

And if I mounted it flush on the ceiling (assuming the center of the lens is ~3" below the ceiling) and the top of the screen was 3" down from the ceiling (so center of lens lines up with the top of the screen), then I would need to use 50% of the lens shift to center the image?

John

To get the lens shift to line up with the top of the screen you would lens shift 50% of screen height. But since the total lens shift is 63% of screen height you will be using about 80% of the available lens shift.

The wait is killing me.

Has anyone who ordered via VisualApex received their units?

I cannot wait to pit this against my SE20HD.

Originally posted by jasallen

The choice of putting in an HDMI instead of a DVI-D plug on a unit that DOESN'T support sound is stricly a styling choice -- it's the newer thing and they thought the unit would look cooler that way. But had they put an HDCP compliant DVI-D port in, it would work they same, and yes, could still have been driven by an HDMI device (remember both forward AND backward compatible).


HDMI does have a few additional advantages,
1) HDMI can handle 10bit RGB and 12bit YPbPr. DVI is only 8 bit RGB.
2) HDMI can handle 480i and 576i. DVI can't.
3) Also, some broken DVD players introduce black crush with an HDMI/DVI cable or converter, so having HDMI on the projector prevents the need for using that cable or converter. Admittedly this is do to an implementation issue.

ianken, how much longer will you survive? Just asking so I know when to come pry the AE700 from your cold, dead hands. LOL

Thanks for the additional info J-Geek

Has anyone who has received the AE700 ceiling mounted their projector? I would like to see a picture of the mount or the AE500 mount if that would work on this projector.

Thanks

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
While I value this thread tremendously seeing as I have a 700 on pre-order, I'm having trouble keeping up with it.

I read this thread every 2-3 days, but even then, I have an enormous amount of reading to do. And there seem to be several conversations/topics being discussed simultaneously (which is both good and bad).

For those of us who "only" check every 2-3 days, could someone maybe provide a quick summary of any major points/findings made lately (ie, in the last few days' posts). For instance, something about 'filters' came up, but that's all I really know.

Perhaps this is a silly idea, and may just lead to more re-hashing, but thought I'd throw it out there.

I can relate!!
If the go to last read post link worked, there would be no problem. its a waste of space if you ask me.

On another note...
I thought Projector Central was doing a review today???


Craig

These two PJ have very close street price. one is DLP, one is LCD. But AE700 has better resolution than H56. Which one is better in terms of contrast, sharpness. Thanks

Originally posted by jasallen
Fully compatible: backwards and forwards.

Basically it's like this, HDMI is DVI-D+

Part of the HDMI specification is the DVI-D specification, it uses the exact same signal (no signal conversion) just a different pinout and more high-speed looking connector -- strictly a looks issue. HDMI is required to support HDCP whereas with DVI-D it's an option, and HDMI does not support analog signals at all: no DVI-I option.



Re: HDMI - In addition to being backwards compatible with DVI (CEA-861), HDMI also allows for longer cable runs about twice that of DVI given the same signal strength and cable quality so you get more placement flexiblity.

regards,
morpho

Originally posted by TheFerret
Eric, good point, but this just re-enforces my position on the matter. Four hours means nothing to someone that realizes they'll spend much more time tweaking it. And what happens to the 1-3 hour returned units? Someone (vendor) posted on their website that they open the projector and flat-panel display products to verify against yadda, yadda, yadda ... and you know yadda's cause a lot of problem :) How does one know if this is a returned unit being pushed onto them?
Ah, the world of [dis]trust.


They are sold as "demo" or "open box" units.
Serial numbers are (struggling for the correct wording) "diligently" tracked by projector manufacturers. So, it would be VERY easy for an end user to find out the history of their projector simply by calling technical support for the manufacturer. Manufacturers are also quick to yank "authorized dealer" status from a company who sells an open-box unit as new.

A prime example of this is Sanyo projectors. If you ask your dealer to inspect your projector prior to shipping and they find a defect (say, dead power supply), they have to pull a new unit for you from the warehouse. Where Sanyo has a NO RETURNS policy, the brand new - never shipped projector needs to be sent into Sanyo for service. The serial number is also logged at this point. So, the dealer can then not sell it as new. It is very similar to the VIN number on your automobile.
I say all this from years of experience ...

So in any case, reason #28 why we should all purchase from authorized and respectable dealers. Otherwise you just don't know what you could be getting (ex. gray market projectors).

Well, anyhow, enough of my babbling. I see your point that an end-user may take quite some time before the projector is "exactly how they want it" ... but again, they should know before that time if it is going to be "close enough". And if not ... well, maybe some of the dealers wouldn't want their overly-picky business anyway :D
Another thing to consider is the fine line, these dealers also have to deal with the people who "buy" projectors just to use for the Superbowl and then claim they don't like the unit and have to return it. It is a fine line. But I wouldn't worry about buying a used unit from any of the AVS Forum sponsors. They all hold their "authorized dealership" titles too valued to risk losing them for something so silly. In our world, the "Authorized Dealer" is key to success.

Originally posted by ianken
The wait is killing me.
Has anyone who ordered via VisualApex received their units?
I cannot wait to pit this against my SE20HD.

If your dealer is going to receive units by the end of the month (October) they should be able to retrieve a scheduled ETA from Panasonic as of yesterday.

Edit - corrected verbiage ...

The problem with buying from authorized and respectable dealers (all be it a terrific suggestion) is that one doesn't necessarily know if a dealer is a) authorized, and b) respectable. I have been in contact with two dealers that claim to be authorized but I have no idea of their credibility in terms of respectability.

Of course, I am trying my best to determine the usefulness of the product by imposing on others to host for me to have a look. For that, I thank them greatly. BTW, its interesting that I could not determine authorized online Panasonic dealers--just locals.

Originally posted by ianken
The wait is killing me.

Has anyone who ordered via VisualApex received their units?

I cannot wait to pit this against my SE20HD.

I ordered mine from VA on Oct 1, and the salesperson told me I was in the first round, and that, as they are located right next to the (a?) Panasonic distribution center, they were sure to get the very first 700's available. While champing at the bit, I really would have been fine with waiting until any reasonable ETA, and it now seems really silly of them (or at least that salesperson) to have told me that. In the meantime, what a feast of information we have enjoyed. Anyway, I see a post now suggesting that Panasonic should have a more specific ETA now, so we could call VA to see if that's the case.

I sound calm & reasonable, but it's all an act. I'm dyin' too.

KongFan

Originally posted by suffolk112000
I can relate!!
If the go to last read post link worked, there would be no problem. its a waste of space if you ask me.
Craig

The "last read post" button works for me, and is invaluable for threads like this one. I kill all cookies each time I boot, so I log in manually to avsforum.

You might try blowing away your cookies and clearing your browser cache, then log in to avsforum, read through a couple of pages of posts on a thread that has just a few pages, close browser, then log back in to see if the feature works.

Trey Smith

suffolk112000,
If the comparison is like projectorcentral's Z3 review, it won't show up until about 5 Pm PDT, 8 PM EDT.

If I remember right, Cine4home metioned degradation only when the lens shift was near maximum AND zoom was near maximum as well. If you are using very little zoom you should be able to shift away with no problems I would think.

I don't believe you remember correctly:

According to babelfish...

"The more one the Lens SHIFTS out-provoked, the more clearly becomes easy convergence shifts in the picture."

That says nothing about zoom.

reap

I mentioned that the zoom played a role. My observation was that the lens shift, at least vertical lens shift, didn't cause a problem until you were at about 75% usage. Additionally, if I moved the zoom out to less that about 75% of that, then the degradations from the lens shift lessened to pretty much non-existent. Furthermore, that is all with DVI to HDMI connection. When using any of the analog connections the effect is even less pronounced. I am not an expert nor do I have a "calibrated eye", but I did use Avia and a computer desktop image, both of which are very unforgiving, so I feel pretty confident about my observations.

Originally posted by TheFerret
The problem with buying from authorized and respectable dealers (all be it a terrific suggestion) is that one doesn't necessarily know if a dealer is a) authorized, and b) respectable. I have been in contact with two dealers that claim to be authorized but I have no idea of their credibility in terms of respectability.

Of course, I am trying my best to determine the usefulness of the product by imposing on others to host for me to have a look. For that, I thank them greatly. BTW, its interesting that I could not determine authorized online Panasonic dealers--just locals.

Check out Reseller Ratings (http://www.resellerratings.com) . I use this if I find a good deal on something online, but I'm unsure of the dealer.

Jcam,
After reading the cine4home review again he doesn't mention zoom in there at all in regards to the convergence errors created by using lens shift (at least in the babelfish translation I used). I believe someone else had posted that previously in the thread. I'd like to hear more about this issue from people who have the projector. I would think the best way to test would be having an HTPC with a black desktop with white text, and testing the shift with and without zoom to see what happens. It may not be noticable at normal viewing distances. Maybe ekkhart can clarify this??

EDIT: looks like we all posted at the same time.....haha. Thanks jasallen for the clarification.

Originally posted by Borg
.... I would think the best way to test would be having an HTPC with a black desktop with white text, and testing the shift with and without zoom to see what happens.

Yep, that's just what I did :D

Originally posted by bapenguin
Check out Reseller Ratings (http://www.resellerratings.com) . I use this if I find a good deal on something online, but I'm unsure of the dealer.

Yup ... good post.
Or you can ask them (the dealer) to provide documentation that they are authorized. Or, you can request the info from the manufacturer. Either can be accessed simply by dropping an email off their respective websites and will be provided within 1 business day.

Don't take my my post as dismissive though Ferret.
Buying a projector is something that takes some research ... just like anything else. There are plenty of people out there who fabricate or twist the truth ... even some "authorized dealers".
But, I guess that's why you should be happy to have a group of guys like you fellow forum members!
We won't steer you wrong! ;)

Please forgive me. I know that it has been mentioned somewhere but searching has led me nowhere. Does the AE-700 fit the same bolt pattern of the 100/300/500 mount?

I am interested in how others are ceiling mounting the AE700, from reading the manual and looking through the other posts seems people are still a little confused. I have to sit directly beneath the projector because of room size limitations but dont want to max out the lens shift with the amount of zoom I will be using(approx 75%). How are others dealing with this?

thanks,

lordsiris

WSR is reporting a contrast of over 5000:1 for the HS51:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=459815

I know it does not apply to the 700, but a lot of us are interested in either model...

reaper

Just checked out projector centrals site. Still no shoot out.

Ugh.

Craig:)

You are correct guys, it was not Cine4home that said zoom and lens shift need to be maxed to notice the degradation. It was Jasallen's review where I had seen it.

"1) First, I haven't seen this addressed much so I'll start with it: Lens Shift DOES affect image quality once you get to about 75% usage of it in any direction *AND are at or near max zoom. This is only observable in test patterns (avia or dve) or a computer desktop feed, not video. This problem is that it is impossible to focus the entire screen at once when shifted, you can focus the top left, then the bottom right is a little fuzzy; focus bottom right and top left is fuzzy. Not a huge problem, but I would recommend getting as close to center as possible. *This paragraph was edited to denote the fact that you must use near max zoom before lens shift degradation is observable."

Too much stuff to wade through sometimes. As soon as mine arrives I am staying away from this thread!

You all believe me don't you:D

Ok, let me get this.

Ill be projecting onto a 100 inch screen, which will be 8 inch from ceiling. Can I flush mount this projector, and if so, what % of lens shift will i be using?

It will be mount 3.1 m from the screen (which is max zoom i think)

Given this scenario, will the picture be degraded. Im tossing up between 700 and z3

Originally posted by bapenguin
Check out Reseller Ratings (http://www.resellerratings.com) . I use this if I find a good deal on something online, but I'm unsure of the dealer. None of the companies I had in mind are with reviews/ratings there. One wasn't even listed.
Originally posted by Ericbres
Yup ... good post.
Or you can ask them (the dealer) to provide documentation that they are authorized. Or, you can request the info from the manufacturer. Either can be accessed simply by dropping an email off their respective websites and will be provided within 1 business day.

See my reply above. I will email them in the morning, but come hell or high water on Friday if they haven't replied I'm comnig for y'all! :)

Don't take my my post as dismissive though Ferret.
Buying a projector is something that takes some research ... just like anything else. There are plenty of people out there who fabricate or twist the truth ... even some "authorized dealers".
But, I guess that's why you should be happy to have a group of guys like you fellow forum members!
We won't steer you wrong! ;)
I know it takes research, which is what I am doing. I am also researching the convenience factor. I guess I am just slow ni the brain because I could never decide through setup in an hour if I could pull enough contrast and lower enough brightness to obtain suitable conditions. You folks have ages of experience and as such 4-hours, even a single hour is enough for you to determine if a product will work. For me, only things like rainbows, excessive VB, etc. are triggers to a quick decision, but contrast/BL tweaking is somethnig else and for me takes much longer.

Time to go read the chatter about the WSR-HS51 ...

Originally posted by dazbug
Ok, let me get this.

Ill be projecting onto a 100 inch screen, which will be 8 inch from ceiling. Can I flush mount this projector, and if so, what % of lens shift will i be using?

It will be mount 3.1 m from the screen (which is max zoom i think)

Given this scenario, will the picture be degraded. Im tossing up between 700 and z3

I will have a very similar setup to this and would be very interested to find out the answer.

I am also trying to decide between the 700 and Z3.

Originally posted by NavinJohnson
While I value this thread tremendously seeing as I have a 700 on pre-order, I'm having trouble keeping up with it.

I read this thread every 2-3 days, but even then, I have an enormous amount of reading to do. And there seem to be several conversations/topics being discussed simultaneously (which is both good and bad).
I agree. I just hope a new thread is created once the AE700 is actually released (maybe one for reviews and another for tweaks). Maybe this thread could then be renamed "AE700 previews/expectations/hopes/dreams"?

Originally posted by gsc
I agree. I just hope a new thread is created once the AE700 is actually released (maybe one for reviews and another for tweaks). Maybe this thread could then be renamed "AE700 previews/expectations/hopes/dreams"?
Actually, the AE700 has been released. I went to John Eaton's house (JDEATON) this past Sunday for a look-see. Its just not in wide & plentiful distribution.

Ill be projecting onto a 100 inch screen, which will be 8 inch from ceiling. Can I flush mount this projector, and if so, what % of lens shift will i be using?

OK, so assume flush mount puts the center of the lens 3" from ceiling, then you must shift the additional 5 inches PLUS the 1/2 of the screen height (which is 48 inches divided by 2) for a total shift of 29 inches.

29 inches out of 48 total is 60% lens shift. (as panasonic defines it.)

The maximum allowable is 63%, so you are using 95% of the AVAILABLE shift. (I've seen some people express it this way.) Thus, you will not be able to do any appreciable horizontal shift, and some are saying PQ will suffer. I am in the same boat :(

Now, can someone answer: is maximum zoom occurring when you are at the WIDE setting (3.1M for 100" screen) or at TELEPHOTO (6.2M)? I gathered from other posts that WIDE implies zoom at max.

E

Do we know yet if AVS is selling this PJ?

Fellow military members who are considering this PJ: PM me regarding AAFES.

As I used the term "max zoom" I intended it to mean wide.

Originally posted by BMoreE

Now, can someone answer: is maximum zoom occurring when you are at the WIDE setting (3.1M for 100" screen) or at TELEPHOTO (6.2M)? I gathered from other posts that WIDE implies zoom at max.

E

i too would like to know the answer to this question.

Hmmm -- AAFES -- owed them alot of money when I got out of the Marine Corps. Paid 'em back eventually :D

If you use the throw length calulator at www.projectorcentral.com for the 700, it defines the Zoom at 1x to be your 100" screen at 20' throw. A Zoom of 2x would make the screen twice that size at the same throw or conversely a zoom of 2x would allow you to get that 100" screen from 10' throw.

Is that what you are looking for?

As far as max vs min zoom, I've never seen people agree on what these mean since minimizing the image size is maximizing the throw ratio and vis versa. So, I just tend to say things like, "I put the projector as far away as possible for the image size" or "I made the image as small as it would go for the projector position" so that I then don't have to explain what I meant. Even if there is some standard (based on cameras or something) I don't think we will actually get to the point where "min zoom" and "max zoom" aren't confusing to some people.

--Darin

Had a hard time finding the link from mfg web site, it was posted under the "Business" section??? But here it is incase anyone is interested. The official listing of AE700 at the company's US website. Still no info from the Canadian site.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=72987&catGroupId=21360&modelNo=PT-AE700U&surfModel=PT-AE700U

Originally posted by BMoreE
OK, so assume flush mount puts the center of the lens 3" from ceiling, then you must shift the additional 5 inches PLUS the 1/2 of the screen height (which is 48 inches divided by 2) for a total shift of 29 inches.

29 inches out of 48 total is 60% lens shift. (as panasonic defines it.)

The maximum allowable is 63%, so you are using 95% of the AVAILABLE shift. (I've seen some people express it this way.) Thus, you will not be able to do any appreciable horizontal shift, and some are saying PQ will suffer. I am in the same boat :(

Now, can someone answer: is maximum zoom occurring when you are at the WIDE setting (3.1M for 100" screen) or at TELEPHOTO (6.2M)? I gathered from other posts that WIDE implies zoom at max.

E

Bugger, looks like the sanyo Z3 might be on the cards now. I really wanted the 700 due to the smoothscreen, but will have to see what the Z3 is like as the Z1 I had, had very noticable screendoor.

Ill have to wait for the z3 demo, otherwise if i get 700 i wont be able to flush mount :(

Any recommendationsfor a HDMI Cable for a 25 foot run from a HTPC to the AE700 ? I'm picking up my 700 next week and I need to be ready :)

I've heard Pacific Cable and Blue Jean Cable mentioned. Any reason I should pick one over the other? Any others I should consider?

I also need a DVI to HDMI Adaptor and I'm leaning toward the one on the RAM site for $50.00. It seems a tad overpriced for an adaptor but it looks well made.

Any comments from the experts would be appreciated.

It would appear that the AE700 also has one type of keystone correction (V) similiar to VPL-HS51.

Details on page 28 of the AE700 manual :
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_PT-AE700U.pdf

I guess these manufacturers thought that with the lens shift feature, horizontal keystone correction isn't necessary anymore.

Projector Central's AE700 vs Z3 comparison.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae700_sanyo_z3.htm

Well, here is an interesting excerpt from the Projector Central review (http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae700_sanyo_z3.htm) :

...I want to correct an error in the initial AE700 review in which I reported that scaling of standard definition material looked a bit soft. It did indeed look soft at the time. However, in the days since that review we have worked more with the AE700, in particular doing side by side display with the Z3. We cannot replicate the conditions under which that perceived softness was occurring. The image now looks as sharp as can be expected...


A similar comment, but with a more satisfying explanation as it relates to Smooth Screen technology, was made in a Secrets review (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/panasonic-pt-l500u-projector-5-2004.html) of the Panasonic L500U, eg:

....Several times while watching HDTV, the image looked soft or out of focus. Focusing didn’t help, but switching channels to a true HD broadcast revealed that the projector was sharp as a tack; it was the programr material that was soft. It seems that soft material, e.g., up-converted sources, combined with SDE may give a false impression of sharpness that disappears when there is not much SDE....

Brent

i'm relieved to read about the scaling...that was my one cause for concern.

'Twould be a shame to have ~200 DVDs sitting next to the projector and not want to watch them due to softness.

Originally posted by jasallen
You should not have any noticeable degradation there if you are really only using 50% of the lens shift (lens centered about quarter of the way up or down the screen for vertical shift)

Thank you very much :)

To echo on comments before and put my 2-cents in with the zoom feature. I currently have the projector about 7 feet from my screen. I have the zoom maxed so I can get a nice big picture. I noticed 2 things.

1) Screendoor. You can see screendoor on bright scenes when zoomed all the way in.

2) Focus is odd when using the lens shift. I probably have the lens shifted 40% up and 10% left. You can really notice it with pictures, but when text is on the screen (like in video games) you can see the focus towards the bottom is a bit softer than the focus at the top of the screen. Just an observation.

I can't wait to finish my damn theater and get the projector down into it's "home"

This is the first projector I've owned, and I'm really in love. :-)

Originally posted by bapenguin
To echo on comments before and put my 2-cents in with the zoom feature. I currently have the projector about 7 feet from my screen. I have the zoom maxed so I can get a nice big picture. I noticed 2 things.

1) Screendoor. You can see screendoor on bright scenes when zoomed all the way in.

2) Focus is odd when using the lens shift. I probably have the lens shifted 40% up and 10% left. You can really notice it with pictures, but when text is on the screen (like in video games) you can see the focus towards the bottom is a bit softer than the focus at the top of the screen. Just an observation.

I can't wait to finish my damn theater and get the projector down into it's "home"

This is the first projector I've owned, and I'm really in love. :-)

re: (2)-

I believe this is the nature of most under $5K projectors with vertical lens shift. To optimize focus uniformity across the entire lens shift range would probably be cost prohibitive.

FWIW, my PLV60, which has vertical only motorized lens shift, exhibits similar focus non-uniformity when the lens is shifted significantly off center. I must use the lens shift, since it isceiling mounted in my dedicated basement theater.

Ironically, my previous projector (my first), a 1997 vintage Mits X100 XGA, had excellent focus uniformity. Icon text on Windows desktop icons were pixel sharp at the top and bottom on the image area. The X100 did not have lens shift- it projected roughly from the lens centerline and up, as it was menat for business use sitting on a table. It worked perfectly ceiling mounted.

Bottom line- I suspect that pj's with fixed lenses and images projected off the lens centerline can be optimized for focus uniformity at low cost, since only one optical geometry needs to be optimized. Once you allow the optics to move around, it would take a very complicated compensating system to maintain focus uniformity over the entire range of allowed lens motion.

The small amount of focus non-uniformity when lens shifted on my PLV60 has never been an issue during movies, only easily detected on a Windows desktop. I always dial in the focus on a Win desktop so the image is pixel sharp across the middle third of the image, and slightly off sharp in the top and bottom thirds, where there are black bars anyways in most movies. Of the hundreds of people who've watched movies and events in my theater, no one has ever mentioned focus as an issue. Also, since many HT enthusiast actually set their pj slightly out of focus anyways (to minimize SDE or other artifacts), I don't think slight focus issues are a big deal. Larger focus deviations are an issue though- but how far out of focus does it need to be to be a defect?

Your explanation of vertical lens shift makes me feel a little easier (just a little)about using it. This feature is one of my main reasons for upgrading a 500 to a 700. I would hate to install the new 700 - and then find out the lens shift feature is unacceptable due to focus / convergence issues.

Originally posted by Souki
Projector Central's AE700 vs Z3 comparison.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae700_sanyo_z3.htm

Another lame review from Projectorcentral.

He made the comment that the Z3's "theater black" allowed better black levels, but they couldn't be bothered to actually measure those levels for comparison.

He made the comment that the AE700 has a little more VB than the Z3, but did not address whether or not he tweaked the AE700 to remove the VB.

He made the comment that the Z3 is "better" for table or ceiling mounting because it has a larger lens shift, which incorrectly implies that the AE700's lens shift does not allow table and ceiling mounting (which of course it does)

He says the AE700 is "brighter," but doesn't bother to measure it and give actual numbers.

He makes no effort to measure delivered contrast and brightness out of the box and after calibration.

He makes no mention of DVI input and overscan issues.

In short, this review tells us exactly Jack **** that we didn't know or suspect before the review.

Personally, I'm waiting for Cine4home's AE700 vs Z3 comparison. Even in machine-translated German it is bound to be more complete and informative that Projectorcentral.

Right on. I am beginning to wonder if they've always been that casual with their reviews, or that we are just spoiled by Ekkehart's :)

TheFerret,

Did you post your impressions of the 700? If so, I missed it, give me a link. If not, let's hear it.

reaper

I think that some people take too much stock in reviews. Go out and see these projectors for yourself before taking someone else's opinion on it.

If you really can't get to see any of these PJ's in a store... try and see if you can visit a fellow AVS'er who has the PJ that you are interested in.

If all else fails.... ask specific questions right here on this forum, make an informed decision, and cross your fingers. ;)

Originally posted by thatdreamer
Another lame review from Projectorcentral.

In short, this review tells us exactly Jack **** that we didn't know or suspect before the review.

Personally, I'm waiting for Cine4home's AE700 vs Z3 comparison. Even in machine-translated German it is bound to be more complete and informative that Projectorcentral.

Man, is this ever a tough crowd. :p

the Projector Central folks must be feeling pretty beat up now.

I remember when I posted my personal review of the X1. I got the crap kicked out of me for not be formal, doing measurements, etc. I would have hoped, though, that Projector Central would have provided measurements for a comparative analysis. Unfortunately, it reminds me of one or more HT rags that seem to compare several projectors against one-another and in conclusion say nothing bad about any of them.

One has to consider the frame of reference in someone's negative comments on AVS, because tweakers are abound. As such, the seek numbers from measurements when the source is considered or portrayed as a professional.

Yeah, I think that PC has been taking too many hard hits. I think there's room on the net for different types of reviewers. Not every review needs to cater to the AVS uber-tweaker type. I think PC is written in a manner easy enough to understand for the average joe blow. If you wanna send your know-nothing neighbor a review to read, are you going to ask him to plow through all the cine4home information? No. I think PC would be more appropriate for a normal joe blow who just wants to dump $2k and doesn't want to get bogged down in the extreme details.

reap

Originally posted by thatdreamer
Another lame review from Projectorcentral.
-crop-
He says the AE700 is "brighter," but doesn't bother to measure it and give actual numbers.
He makes no effort to measure delivered contrast and brightness out of the box and after calibration.
In short, this review tells us exactly Jack **** that we didn't know or suspect before the review.
Personally, I'm waiting for Cine4home's AE700 vs Z3 comparison. Even in machine-translated German it is bound to be more complete and informative that Projectorcentral.

Explain to me (us) what good it would do for P.C. to post the lumens he measures on his screen post calibration on the AE700?

It would mean nothing ... ziltch ... zero ...
Because I could do the exact same tweaking and get completely different results in my theater. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that my lumens could be HUNDREDS different then his.

He said the projector is brighter, that means perceived brighter. In his room it could go from 500 lumens up to the brighter 700 lumens ... in your room it could go from 300 lumens up to the brighter 500 lumens. Basically .... BRIGHTER. Just as he said.
Would it be cool to know that the AE700 is 75 lumens brighter than the Z3 post calibration? Maybe. But then you would be squalking about wanting to know contrast levels, screen material used, color levels of reds/greens/blues, how flesh tones looked, and a gazillion other details ... it's a whole big ugly can of worms.
Could he have spent hours and hours with hundreds of dollars worth of test equipment to show us specific numbers brighter? Sure. But that isn't where he makes his money. He said it gets brighter ... it gets brighter.
Geez ... give the guy a break.

And think before you complain about something you received for free.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I remember when I posted my personal review of the X1. I got the crap kicked out of me for not be formal, doing measurements, etc.

Almost the same thing here. I had a chance to see the Optoma H30 a while before it shipped so I thought I would post some comments and impressions on the forum....bad idea. People who hadn't even seen the projector argued with almost everything I said. That was the last time I posted comments on a pj.

No good review goes unpunished.

Originally posted by jayfsee007
Any recommendationsfor a HDMI Cable for a 25 foot run from a HTPC to the AE700 ? I'm picking up my 700 next week and I need to be ready :)

I've heard Pacific Cable and Blue Jean Cable mentioned. Any reason I should pick one over the other? Any others I should consider?

I also need a DVI to HDMI Adaptor and I'm leaning toward the one on the RAM site for $50.00. It seems a tad overpriced for an adaptor but it looks well made.

Any comments from the experts would be appreciated.

For a 25 foot run on an HDMI to DVI cable, I'd go with the Ultralink HDMI Pro 10-meter cable and the Ultralink HF-DM HDMI Female to DVI-D Male Adapter. This cable with the adapters on both sides was tested by William Phelps and shown to be able to handle 1080p.

Maybe we can use the terms:

- maximum wide-angle zoom
- maximum telephoto zoom

Wide-angle for a bigger picture, telephoto for smaller picture. In reality, wide-angel implies a shorter focal length, which is what we have in these projectors, telephoto a longer focal length.

These are the correct photography terms anyways.

Originally posted by Ericbres
Explain to me (us) what good it would do for P.C. to post the lumens he measures on his screen post calibration on the AE700?

It would mean nothing ... ziltch ... zero ...


Not quite. I understand Evan's reasoning behind not posting Lumen and CR measurements. But I also think that posting the information would lead to a more reliable measurement than having to rely on Evan's opinion ("700 is brighter").

Reviews are really opinions, but with established measurements included it adds weight and reliability to the review...

There is a benefit to PC posting these numbers. Evan may think that the reason not to post them outweighs the reasons to post them, and that is his right... some feel differently.

I don't disagree with you Spellbound beause I completely see your point.
I was merely stating the review isn't as "worthless" as some would lead to believe.

Originally posted by Ericbres
Explain to me (us) what good it would do for P.C. to post the lumens he measures on his screen post calibration on the AE700?

It would mean nothing ... ziltch ... zero ...
Because I could do the exact same tweaking and get completely different results in my theater. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that my lumens could be HUNDREDS different then his.

He said the projector is brighter, that means perceived brighter. In his room it could go from 500 lumens up to the brighter 700 lumens ... in your room it could go from 300 lumens up to the brighter 500 lumens. Basically .... BRIGHTER. Just as he said.
Would it be cool to know that the AE700 is 75 lumens brighter than the Z3 post calibration? Maybe. But then you would be squalking about wanting to know contrast levels, screen material used, color levels of reds/greens/blues, how flesh tones looked, and a gazillion other details ... it's a whole big ugly can of worms.
Could he have spent hours and hours with hundreds of dollars worth of test equipment to show us specific numbers brighter? Sure. But that isn't where he makes his money. He said it gets brighter ... it gets brighter.
Geez ... give the guy a break.

And think before you complain about something you received for free.



In my opinion its not necessarily the value it adds to THIS comparison but helps provide a barometer to judge other projectors he has tested.

I am going to assume that he reviews all his projectors with the same screen and in the same room with the same amount of ambient light. I would like to know the numbers he achieved with the AE700 and the Z3 so i can compare them to the numbers he achieved with the H77 (which were posted by him).

Since the only thing that probably has changed between his h77 review and this review is the projector itself, that would be very useful to me as i am considering both at the moment.

I dont think anyone should be 'hard' on him but i dont see anything wrong with making the suggestion or argument that they should be included.

John

Many have said not to use the lens shift to extreme measures as it causes convergence issues. Can anyone be more specific about a point of no return? I believe that my setup may require a shift of about 50%. Is that a problem? Is there some amount of shift that we should not exceed? Perhaps this is a subjective question re: how much mis-convergence can you stand...

reaper

Curious to know how many people have already received their AE700U's and set them up? Been browsing this forum for a while getting as much info as possible and have finally decided to post some questions.

The questions I have are specifically for the forumites who've already gotten their AE700U's and calibrated/used them.

1) Do you see VB in your projector?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but only very slight and not noticeable except for certain scenes
c)Not at all even with a gray field test.

2) If there was VB, could you get rid of it with the flicker tweak?
a)Yes
b)Reduced it but VB is still there
c)No

3)Any color uniformity problems especially with gray fields?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but not noticeable in normal viewing content
c)No

4) Do you notice the dynamic iris in effect?
a)Yes (if yes, what transitions made it noticeable?)
b)Occasionally
c)No

5)If you notice the dynamic iris in effect, was it detracting from your viewing experience?
a)Yes
b)Initially, but stopped noticing it after a while
c)No

6)At what distance do you notice SDE expressed in feet (also noting the width of your screen or as a ratio of screen width? e.g 5 feet from 96" wide screen or 1.3x

7)If you have experience with other projectors, what is your opinion about the 'soft' image that some others have expressed with the AE700U?

Hey all:

Just throwing in my 2 cents: I, too, think we've kicked Projector Central in the groin enough. From the newbie's perspective, Evan Powell generally does just what he has clearly set out to do: inform the average joe, in average joe terms, before they decide on a projector, often their first. In fact, I feel Mr. Powell generally manages to include much from the tweaker realm in those same, translated terms. This brings issues to newbies, in an understandable form, which likely would not have even occurred to them to consider. I believe it is nearly impossible to write a single (less-than-novel-length) review of this type which would not either confuse/overwhelm the novice or shortchange the tweaker. Also, consider that Powell will, as with the 700's scaling/sharpness issue, correct or refine previous statements/observations, and will update reviews. Were I more experienced, I might also take exception to vague or omitted issues. For a newbie like me, however, assuming they're not regularly just flat out wrong, PC's reviews are a rare and valuable source of comprehendible information. Maybe I'll send Powell a kind, encouraging email to read while he's massaging his sore rear end.

Yeah, I know I'm a pollyanna, but newbies have PC and this forum, tweakers have Cine4home and this forum, and it all just falls out of the sky for free. Damn, life is good.

Except, Aaaaaaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Where's my 700?!!! Apparently, out at sea, somewhere. As of yesterday, Visual Apex's stated ETA is the last week of October.

KongFan

Many people at a swedish forum is now talking a lot about vb. And they have found something great!

"PULL THE MAIN CORD OUT OF THE WALL EVERY NIGHT AND HAVE NO VB"

Looks like when its in standby it can't get rid of the voltage in the lcd panels.

Originally posted by exsodius
Many people at a swedish forum is now talking a lot about vb. And they have found something great!

"PULL THE MAIN CORD OUT OF THE WALL EVERY NIGHT AND HAVE NO VB"

Looks like when its in standby it can't get rid of the voltage in the lcd panels.

Seems a bit silly to me -- for how long does a power cycle supposedly eliminate VB?

I don't know if this is really related to VB at all, but the P.C. article mentioned another "tweak" that new AE700 owners should pay attention to:


The AE700 manifests much more signal noise than does the Z3. The Z3's image is smooth and clean, whereas the noise on the AE700 can produce a slightly grainy, unstable effect, and smaller details in the image can appear ill-defined. However, the AE700 has a noise reduction (NR) filter to compensate for this. It normally defaults to the Off position, but the NR filter cleaned up the noise artifacts quite effectively without appearing to compromise the picture in any negative way. With the NR filter on, the AE700 delivers as stable an image as does the Z3.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Seems a bit silly to me -- for how long does a power cycle supposedly eliminate VB?

I don't know if this is really related to VB at all, but the P.C. article mentioned another "tweak" that new AE700 owners should pay attention to:

Why would this be silly? It's almost the same as restarting/resetting the whole thing.

From i was a very little kid i loved experementing with electrical things. And if things did not work, i always tried to reset it with cutting the power. And very often it worked. Sorry i have to go now to restart my pc before windows hangs
:D :rolleyes:

So I generally find the Projector Central reviews useful.

That said, with a simple light meter, Evan could measure contrast and brightness accurately. It'd probably cost a few hundred dollars for a decent one and a few hours to master using it, but it's not exactly rocket science.

Given the nature of the PC website, it makes a lot of sense.

Does anyone have ANSI contrast measurments from the 700u, Z3 and HS51 to compare? I'm thinking all the contrast ratios I've seen so far were either manufacturer specs or full on/off only.

Regarding the four hour "test" period offered by a particular seller.

A: What things should a person check for, focusing on things that would not be covered by a warranty, but could detract from the viewing experience? e.g. dead pixels.

B. What method is the easiest\quickest way to check for these items.

C. What should one have on hand to do these checks? e.g. PC input with greyscale .bmp.


Thanks,
Nate

Re: PC, I agree that it is a good source for people new to the subject, and complaing about a free site is like kicking a gift horse in the teeth.

Re: Unpluging the unit to remove VB. This also works great for getting CRT like black levels and a perfectly silent fan. And your lamp will last forever. Ha!

So let me get this straight. After I junk my junky Bravo D1 and get a new DVD player with DVI or HDMI out, I DON'T have to replace my AE300 to view HDCP content?

Thanks

Re: Unpluging the unit to remove VB. This also works great for getting CRT like black levels and a perfectly silent fan. And your lamp will last forever. Ha!

Why do you say this before you have tried? We will see about who gets the last laugh. :)

I recieved my AE700 today and am quite impressed as a first reaction (compared to my HP XB31 DLP) watching HD cable over component cables.

I can't seem to view any HD cable material over HDMI, though. I am using a monster HDMI->DVI converter, which is connected to the cable tuner (comcast, 6200). So, I tried the same trick with my PC (using the DVI connector on my ATI FireGL X1-128) and it works fine at 640x480. However, I am unable to select any higher resolution -- even when using Powerstrip.

I am beginning to think this is a result of my 30' HDMI cable. I suppose it could be the HDMI-DVI converter or perhaps I am just doing it all wrong.

Any advice? I sure would like to view HD over HDMI.

John Rush
HDMI ain't gonna work at higher rez coming from non-hdcp sources!

BTW, does anyone know of any person/company or organization in the US who calibrates projectors in a similar way as is done by cine4home with the color filters? Just curious to know if it's available here and if so, whether anyone has measured the results? It would certainly be worth a few hundred dollars if the results are as described by Ekkehart with a doubling of contrast ratio at D65 AND an increase in brightness.

Has anyone compared the AE700 to the likes of the NEC HT1000 or similar dlp models? My main concern is the type of black levels the AE700 would put out in comparison to the NEC HT1000, any help would be great!!

Thanks

Thanks tsteves, but I think you got that backwards. An HDMI/HDCP-compliant display device will not refuse an incoming hi-def signal if it is non-HDCP.

However, an HDCP-compliant component will refuse to output higher resultions to a non-HDCP device.

In my case, the projector and cable tuner are both HDCP-compliant and the PC is not. That should not cause any problems that I am aware of, since both devies should be able to send hi-def to a complaint projector, such as the AE700.

However, please correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think the NR works on VGA or HDMI. I have NR on my L200, as do L300 or L500 owners, but I can't use it while using the VGA port. Perhaps using S video or component input it would operate. Not sure if the AE700 works this way too.

In all due respect, I don't think the Projector Central reviews of the AE700 and Z3 are very good for the following reasons: The current AE700 and Z3 reviews, and the "AE700 - Z3 comparison" are less informative than their previous reviews, with fewer measurement and fewer "comparisons". I think these reviews aren't as good as their previous reviews. I feel the Cine4home reviews are more interesting. Saying that these reviews are written for the average person is meaningly. You can easily measure and compare without confusing people. Also, there is no mention as to which inputs they used to compare the projectors to one another. I suspect that the "soft" look of the intial AE700 review may have resulted from using the wrong input set the wrong way. How else could the observed softness occured and then vanished? I appreciate PC's review but I wish it was more informative. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by exsodius
Re: Unpluging the unit to remove VB. This also works great for getting CRT like black levels and a perfectly silent fan. And your lamp will last forever. Ha!

Why do you say this before you have tried? We will see about who gets the last laugh. :)

I didn't mean to disparage your suggestion. It was a joke, implying that you meant to use the projector with out plugging it in (hence the black screen and silent fan). Do not worry, I will stick to my day job.

Nate

OK, I'll throw my lens shift info out there. I have a Z2 mounted with the lens at around 94" above ground and the top of the screen(100" screen) is at around 84" above ground. The Z2 has no trouble with this shift and will actually move the image down around another foot from the top of the screen. My question is if the AE700 will fit in this setup....does it's lens shift have this range?

Originally posted by reaper
Many have said not to use the lens shift to extreme measures as it causes convergence issues. Can anyone be more specific about a point of no return? I believe that my setup may require a shift of about 50%. Is that a problem? Is there some amount of shift that we should not exceed? Perhaps this is a subjective question re: how much mis-convergence can you stand...

reaper

Now that I think about it - the convergence error we saw on the 700 at Daniel's house might have been actually caused by the lens shift we were using. We assumed the LCD panels were mis-aligned. It was only noticeable upclose - and the picture seemed plenty sharp from our seated distance. So I think a small amount is acceptable - although one person (with a photographic background) said that it would be a deal-breaker for him. Any other 700 owners using lens shift have comments about it's use in the more extreme positions?

OK, I'll throw my lens shift info out there. I have a Z2 mounted with the lens at around 94" above ground and the top of the screen(100" screen) is at around 84" above ground. The Z2 has no trouble with this shift and will actually move the image down around another foot from the top of the screen. My question is if the AE700 will fit in this setup....does it's lens shift have this range?

Doing the math:

Assuming you have a 88x50" (or so screen for 16x9, 100" diag)

63% of 50" = 31.5" (amount of available center travel)

Moving the center down 31.5" from 94" results in the center being at 62.5" from the floor.

1/2 of your screen height is 25". SOOO...

62.5" + 25" = 87.5" (top of projected image from floor at max)

So, appears you would have to move your screen up 3 inches, or move your projector down 3 inches.

Corrections anyone?

jayfsee007,

Any recommendationsfor a HDMI Cable for a 25 foot run from a HTPC to the AE700 ? I'm picking up my 700 next week and I need to be ready

I've heard Pacific Cable and Blue Jean Cable mentioned. Any reason I should pick one over the other? Any others I should consider?

I also need a DVI to HDMI Adaptor and I'm leaning toward the one on the RAM site for $50.00. It seems a tad overpriced for an adaptor but it looks well made.

Any comments from the experts would be appreciated.

I'm far from an expert, but I needed the exact same connectivity that you are looking for. I am expecting my Panny 700 to arrive first week of November. I found a 23ft (yes 23ft ) "Precision HDMI cable" (gold plated contacts) at avcable for $72. I also picked up the Monster VA DVI-HDMI SL male DVI to female HDMI for $30.

There are some really outrageously high prices out there for HDMI cables that defy logic and common sense. It is a digital signal so in my view the main issue is attenuation and shielding (for noise immunity). As long as the bits get to the projector and can be detected, I am confident it will work fine. The main thing to keep in mind is that DVI is more limited on distance than HDMI, so at 25ft we are probably pushing the max for DVI over HDMI cable.

By the way, there is another great place for Toslink optical, coax digital, component and a host of other types called cablewholesale (alias national-tech) with what appears to be high-grade products at great prices. I bought a shopping basket there that was $76 shipping included that would have been over $200 at BestBuy.

I am confused about hdmi and hdcp....
Room will be ready for pj purchase in about 2 months.

HTPC is up and running and will be near the floor against the back wall, projector will be on a shelf higher up the same wall, so cable length will be about 2 metres.

My intention was to buy a dvi to hdmi cable to connect the htpc to the projector.

Video card is an Nvidia 5700le

Will i be able to output 1280x720 via this connection without drama?
Will I be able to output hdtv from my Visionplus without drama?
Will hdcp be an issue for me?
Are issues with this setup only cable length related or is there more to it?
My understanding is that i don't need powerstrip because the latest nvidia drivers allow exact timings to be inputed(is that a word?), am I wrong?
Would I be better off using vga to vga? (this doesn't appeal to me, but...)

Please help me here, I'm starting to stress.

Well I have finally made my PJ buying decision, I became so caught up in the never ending story of this one is better because of this or that one is better because of that, that in the end I was driving myself crazy.

So I just went down to my local store and said " I would like to buy a Panasonic PT-AE700 thanks with a 102" Grandview motorised 16:9 screen and this is what I am prepared to pay $XXXX.00" and they said " Wow we probably could not do it at that price". So I said " Well that is the price a store down south is offering it to me for" and they said " Okay we will match them." So I said " Great we have a deal." Do you think I am happy, too right I am. Whole package came in at $3965.00 Australian dollars.

Now I have to wait till the stock arrives, I am guessing that it will be here around late Nov or early December. Plenty of time to get my cables and furniture sorted out.

Cheers

Mav

Hello John,

Have you tried the NR feature of the projector? PC claim it cleans up the image noise without detriment. I wonder how it affects fast motion images. On CRT TV's my experience with the various so called "tweaks" to improve image invariably caused other problems.

Sorry, still finding my way around.

I was trying to reply to John Rush's post.

Perhaps off topic, but interesting anyway:

Originally posted by japanesegeek
HDMI does have a few additional advantages,
1) HDMI can handle 10bit RGB and 12bit YPbPr. DVI is only 8 bit RGB.
2) HDMI can handle 480i and 576i. DVI can't.
3) Also, some broken DVD players introduce black crush with an HDMI/DVI cable or converter, so having HDMI on the projector prevents the need for using that cable or converter. Admittedly this is do to an implementation issue.

From where did you get the info about 10 bit RGB adn 12 bit YPbPr?
I just looked at the official HDMI v1.1 specification, dated May 20, 2004, and from what I understand (see section 6.5) the only pixel formats allowed are "RGB 4:4:4" with 8 bits/component, "YCbCr 4:4:4" with 8 bits/component, and "YCbCr 4:2:2" with up to 12 bits/component. So the only case where you can get more than 8 bits/component is YCbCr 4:2:2 - where you on the other hand only send Cb and Cr values for every second Y value so the data rate is the same as for the other two formats. That is a pity really! 10 bit RGB would have been really usefull - IMO you wont get real cinema quality until you both have a 100% digital transmission and high enough resoluion in both spatial and color domains to match the photographic original. I think 1280x720 or better yet 1920 x 1080 will do in the spatial domain as long as you don't want to do IMAX stuff (although I would personally have preferred 2048x1152). But 8-bit simply wont cut it for color resolution - you often can see banding issues if you closely study very dark but smoothly graded areas in a picture!

/ Markus

Im almost se ton 700 as i can rear wall mount it which gives a better pic. I beleive panasonic projectors in general (300 500) were much brighter and have that "jump out at u" pic quality compared to Z1 Z2 which seems al little more grainer.

One question if someone can clear it up

If I run a Denon 2910 to 700 via HDMI will i get the missing pixels or is it just through HTPC ???

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Curious to know how many people have already received their AE700U's and set them up? Been browsing this forum for a while getting as much info as possible and have finally decided to post some questions.

The questions I have are specifically for the forumites who've already gotten their AE700U's and calibrated/used them.

1) Do you see VB in your projector?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but only very slight and not noticeable except for certain scenes
c)Not at all even with a gray field test.

2) If there was VB, could you get rid of it with the flicker tweak?
a)Yes
b)Reduced it but VB is still there
c)No

3)Any color uniformity problems especially with gray fields?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but not noticeable in normal viewing content
c)No

4) Do you notice the dynamic iris in effect?
a)Yes (if yes, what transitions made it noticeable?)
b)Occasionally
c)No

5)If you notice the dynamic iris in effect, was it detracting from your viewing experience?
a)Yes
b)Initially, but stopped noticing it after a while
c)No

6)At what distance do you notice SDE expressed in feet (also noting the width of your screen or as a ratio of screen width? e.g 5 feet from 96" wide screen or 1.3x

7)If you have experience with other projectors, what is your opinion about the 'soft' image that some others have expressed with the AE700U?

1) No VB
2) No VB
3) Nope
4/5) Yes, a bit. I noticed it a few times in Star Wars in between scene transitions when it went from a really bright scene to a really dark. It doesn't distract from the viewing expierence though. And it definately makes a difference on the scenes that are dark.
6) I have a temp setup going, I'm 7 feet from the screen. The projected image right now is 70" or so. I have the zoom max'd so the picture is as big as it can get at that distance. I notice screendoor on bright scenes, but once I zoom to about 1.5x it's gone.
7) I've seen the Z2 and a high end Yamaha at tweeter. I don't think the image is very "soft" on the Panny.

Another note, I do power off the unit completley every night, I don't pull the plug but I hit the main power switch on the back. Not sure if this attributes to my lack of VB or not, but I've yet to see it on anything in 40+ hours of viewing.

Originally posted by John Rush
I recieved my AE700 today and am quite impressed as a first reaction (compared to my HP XB31 DLP) watching HD cable over component cables.

I can't seem to view any HD cable material over HDMI, though. I am using a monster HDMI->DVI converter, which is connected to the cable tuner (comcast, 6200). So, I tried the same trick with my PC (using the DVI connector on my ATI FireGL X1-128) and it works fine at 640x480. However, I am unable to select any higher resolution -- even when using Powerstrip.

I am beginning to think this is a result of my 30' HDMI cable. I suppose it could be the HDMI-DVI converter or perhaps I am just doing it all wrong.

Any advice? I sure would like to view HD over HDMI.

John, with Powerstrip, are you using the "1280x720 HDTV" preconfigured setting? The other 1280x720 settings there will not work. The 700 is a fussy girl, more like a traditional HDTV than a computer monitor.

*Edit*
It's only that fussy in over HDMI / DVI. Over the VGA cable from HTPC its actually pretty easy-going.

FMJ,

IMHO, your post is interesting and deserves rebuttle/comment. I suggest you start a new thread because, as you suggest, it is off-topic here. I suspect you are missing something but I really don't know.

There are some really outrageously high prices out there for HDMI cables that defy logic and common sense.'Don't know about the company or the quality, but, these (http://www.monoprices.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10209&style=) are the least expensive I've seen.

Originally posted by nowknown
'Don't know about the company or the quality, but, these (http://www.monoprices.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10209&style=) are the least expensive I've seen.

They seem to be a VERY favorable company. Now the question is the quality of the cables....

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller5664.html

EDIT: I just ordered some cables from them, I'll keep everyone updated...

I am kind of confused, and have done a lot of reading on the subject, and I'm still not clear on this issue. I want to buy a 700U and hook it up to a HTPC, and it is recommended by most HTPC users to use the DVI out on whichever video card you use (ATI or nVidia, take your pick).

Can I use a DVI cable (from video card) and a HDMI to DVI connector to go into the Panny HDMI connector and still use 1280x720 resolution, either through using Powerstrip, or natively through the newest ATI display drivers? If so, what are the advantages and disadvantages?

If not, what is the next step? VGA cable or DVI-Component? Which connection is going to accept HTPC output in a 1280x720 res?

My uses would be SageTV PVR stuff, and DVD playback for the majority of my usage of this projector, and I'm excited about the possibilities of using ZP and FFDShow for image post-processing for better image quality. While I have HDTV via Comcast cable through their required box, I wouldn't be opposed to using a different input for that usage, which is less than the other two.

I should mention I spoke to Panasonic Support, and they really only seem to allow PC connection through the VGA port, and I believe through reading that you take a picture quality hit when going from digital to analog and back.

At any rate, if someone can straighten me out on this before I spend a boatload of money on projector and HTPC parts, it would be greatly appreciated :)

Plenty of people are using this projector with HTPC and DVI cable. You can get a DVI to HDMI cable, or an HDMI to HDMI cable with an HDMI-DVI adapter. I have not heard anyone comment on using just straight up (no powerstrip) 1280x720 standard res that most modern video cards support, but several people have commented on this projector working with powerstrip's standard 1280x720 (over DVI).

Personally I will be starting with VGA only mostly because my HighDef card (AccessDTV) doesn't support DVI (in fact, I think there is only one HD card that does support DVI). Eventually I'll probably upgrade, or possibly run VGA for HD card only and DVI for PC.

Originally posted by fmj
Perhaps off topic, but interesting anyway:



From where did you get the info about 10 bit RGB adn 12 bit YPbPr?
I just looked at the official HDMI v1.1 specification, dated May 20, 2004, and from what I understand (see section 6.5) the only pixel formats allowed are "RGB 4:4:4" with 8 bits/component, "YCbCr 4:4:4" with 8 bits/component, and "YCbCr 4:2:2" with up to 12 bits/component. So the only case where you can get more than 8 bits/component is YCbCr 4:2:2 - where you on the other hand only send Cb and Cr values for every second Y value so the data rate is the same as for the other two formats. That is a pity really! 10 bit RGB would have been really usefull - IMO you wont get real cinema quality until you both have a 100% digital transmission and high enough resoluion in both spatial and color domains to match the photographic original. I think 1280x720 or better yet 1920 x 1080 will do in the spatial domain as long as you don't want to do IMAX stuff (although I would personally have preferred 2048x1152). But 8-bit simply wont cut it for color resolution - you often can see banding issues if you closely study very dark but smoothly graded areas in a picture!

/ Markus

On retrospect, I wrote my original message badly, that's what I get for trying to drink less coffee. ;)

You're right that HDMI won't pass a 10-bit RGB, and I agree that this is a mistake and one that is on occasion noticeable. My understanding is that HDMI will take a source that's in YCbCR (like DVDs), send a signal that's YCbCr and then convert that to RGB at the display (i believe, using 10 bits/component on this particular display), rather then do the same thing at the DVD side and then lose some detail when it sends the signal as 8-bit RGB (which it would have to do for DVI)

Don't want to get this thread too offtopic, so here is a good existing thread on HDMI vs. DVI (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3134129)

What's up fellas,

I am relatively new to this whole HT/PJ subject, but have done LOTS of research in the past 3-4 weeks. In fact I have read all 1400+ posts in this thread along with many other sites dedicated to projectors...etc. I have decided to order the Panny AE700 as soon as I receive some $$ I am expecting in the next couple of days. I have some questions that I have been having a hard time finding answers for:

1) pretty simple: I want a 106" diagonal screen. I also want the PQ to be as good as it can possibly be. Now, is it more ideal to place/mount the 700 in a way that you can avoid using the zoom. In other words, is the picture better if you place it 21.4 ft. away and not use the zoom or maybe 15 ft. away and using the zoom?

2) my ceiling in my bonus room is 10 ft. high so if I ceiling mount it, I am guessing that I will need a rod to hang the PJ down to the necessary position. I have also thought about possibly placing it on a shelf at the rear of the room. Either way, I suppose I would have to use the Vertical lens shift to project to the screen. I have read on here that a combination of the lens shift and the zoom reduces PQ, so if true I would like to avoid that if possible.

3) The only place in the room that I can place a screen is directly on top/covering the only window in the room. It is a double window. Do any of you experts see this as a problem? This is really the only source of ambient light, but should be blocked by the screen along with the blinds that are on the window. I might get the Da-Lite Cosmo Electrol screen with either the Matte white or the High Contrast Matte White(which I believe to be gray). Any suggestions or help regarding this would be much appreciated.

I apologize if any of the questions are obvious or ignorant as like I said before, I am relatively new to this.

Thanks in advance, Brian.

:)

I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

Originally posted by bapenguin
1) No VB
2) No VB
3) Nope
....
Another note, I do power off the unit completley every night, I don't pull the plug but I hit the main power switch on the back. Not sure if this attributes to my lack of VB or not, but I've yet to see it on anything in 40+ hours of viewing.

Thanks for the reply. Also wondering what type of connections you use? i.e. hdmi, dvi, component. What brand of cables? Do you use any sort of power conditioner, surge protector? What DVD player were you using?

And when you checked for VB and color uniformity, did you try any of the gray fields with Avia or something similar?

I'm trying to see if there are any similarities or common issues between people who've noted VB and ones who haven't so I can figure out if this is a problem that occasionally crops up with 700u's where the person just got a lemon, or if it might be a problem that is caused by certain types of connections, a poor power supply, bad cables, or a bad DVD player etc.

I didn't think you could even get one of these projectors yet, surely not retail, unless you're referring to reviewers and such...

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Plenty of people are using this projector with HTPC and DVI cable. You can get a DVI to HDMI cable, or an HDMI to HDMI cable with an HDMI-DVI adapter. I have not heard anyone comment on using just straight up (no powerstrip) 1280x720 standard res that most modern video cards support, but several people have commented on this projector working with powerstrip's standard 1280x720 (over DVI).

Consider a HTPC as a TIVO on steriods, more power and flexibility, look at the feature lists for SageTV and BeyondTV, both are PVR software programs. For some, gaming on a large HD screen or display is a draw as well, or manipulation and playback of MP3s. From a DVD standpoint, there is some awesome post-processing that can be done to enhance a DVD image. Check this URL:

http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1

I'm no expert by any means, and am just now in the process of building a HTPC. There is a forum section on AVS here, take a bit of time to read in there, it might provide insight as well :)

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

Has anyone with a Panasonic 700 or any projector with HDMI/DVI input and a HTPC compared the picture quality of using a VGA cable vs. a HDMI cable?

If HDMI is significantly better than VGA I will need to get a HDMI switch to handle multiple HDMI inputs.

Throughout this thread and others I have read many stories of overscanning and missing pixels when using a HTPC with HDMI. The fixes seem to require using Powerstrip or other utilities to tweak the picture, sometimes not optimally. I have not seen any of those issues with a VGA hookup to a projector, so wouldn't it be easier to use VGA with a Home Theater PC?

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

For me its a "no brainer" (man I hate that phrase). A HTPC (which really doesn't cost much more than a good progressive scan DVD player with HDMI) gives you progressive scan DVD playback, ability to do over the air high def television including full PVR (pause live TV, record, etc), ability to play high def DVDs (the ones that exist today, and with a cheap new drive, the ones coming out in the future), it allows me to organize and display my DVD collection (using MyHTPC software), etc. And if I want to surf the web on "the bigscreen" that's possible too, or do slide shows of the family photos, use it as a massive "jukebox" for music, etc. There are almost infinite uses for a HTPC, and its easy to upgrade for new technologies at a much lower cost than buying stand alone devices. You can get a Dell PowerEdge 400SC (or similar) server with DVD drive for about $300, stick a Radeon video card in for $65 and you are ready to go.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

I keep digital photos and home videos on my HTPC and I want the ability to display them on my projector.

I currently have a basic progressive scan DVD player and thinking of upgrading to one that scales to 720P. Has anyone compared running a DVD from a HTPC vs. their DVD player? Are their signficant differences? My HTPC is one of the new Sony VAIO media center PCs.

Lonnie

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

Because good DVD player will cost same as HTPC, but you will not get Meedio, SageTV, HDTV playback and of course ffdshow.
Add to top of that gaming on projector and you have winner.
Also its feature proof - when new BlueRay/HDDVD will be released you will need to pay again $1500 for device while in HTPC you will just swap $100 DVDRW drive to blue ray and you are ready to go :)

I would also point out that the HTPC forum on this very website is an outstanding, and slightly less off topic, place to learn these very details :D

Originally posted by HMenke
I also picked up the Monster VA DVI-HDMI SL male DVI to female HDMI for $30.
There are some really outrageously high prices out there for HDMI cables that defy logic and common sense.
Is it just me, or does $30 for a DVI to HDMI adapter also defy logic and common sense? Isn't it just a passive adapter that connects the pins from one connector to the other? I checked Markertek Pro A/V supply and you can buy a 6 ft DVI-D to HDMI cable for that price. The 5 meter cable is only $45. I have seen several posts from people who bought this Monster adapter, and am amazed that no one bats an eye at paying this much for an adapter. Granted it's not a lot of money when you consider the price of your Home Theater, but it still seems out of line.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Thanks for the reply. Also wondering what type of connections you use? i.e. hdmi, dvi, component. What brand of cables? Do you use any sort of power conditioner, surge protector? What DVD player were you using?

And when you checked for VB and color uniformity, did you try any of the gray fields with Avia or something similar?

I'm trying to see if there are any similarities or common issues between people who've noted VB and ones who haven't so I can figure out if this is a problem that occasionally crops up with 700u's where the person just got a lemon, or if it might be a problem that is caused by certain types of connections, a poor power supply, bad cables, or a bad DVD player etc.
No power conditioner, just a 50 dollar APC UPS.

I've used DVI using a standard DVI cable that came with my Hughes DirectTV receiver. I bought a monster cable HDMI to DVI converter to plug that in.

For DVD (Denon DVD1600)/XBox i'm using the 25 foot comprehensive video cables I got from Projector People.

I haven't tried any other inputs. I just ordered Avia so I haven't got to put the projector through any extended calibration other than calibrating the projector to what I think looked good.

Checking for VB i tried to use common scenes that are mentioned for VB (Pirates Fog ship scene, Tatooine in star wars, master and commander, etc)

So far I've seen no vb.

For color uniformity i've done a lot of looking at replays in games, it's been especially good to look at NHL2k5 since the white ice surface takes up most of the screen. Again, I don't see any disparity between the picture. Hope this helps.

I tried taking some Pics, but my digitall camera doesn't like the dark too much, even with a tripod.

Is it just me, or does $30 for a DVI to HDMI adapter also defy logic and common sense?

I agree with you that $30 is a grievous hit for any adapter, but I was comforted that it was less than the $50 I have seen most places for like adapters.

I liked this particular adapter over an adapter cable because it gets attached to the DVI port and then the HDMI port is right there at the device instead of at the end of a 6ft cable down behind the rack somewhere.

I should also add that my DVI/HDMI run is about 25ft. By going with the Monster adapter, I now have a 23ft HDMI cable that is ready to be plugged into any future native HDMI device. If I used a 6ft DVI/HDMI cable, I would be adding another 6ft of signal-degrading length to the 23ft. This is worth a few extra $$ to me as well.

For several years I have used a NEC 30-inch CRT monitor. As an experiment I recently began exploring use of a front projection system (a Canon with progressive scan up-scaling, etc.) I have been so pleased with the results that I now would like to purchase a projector specifically designed for home theater.

I previewed a Sony HS-20 and an Infocus Screenplay 5700. I would be more than satisfied with either of these projectors, but they would need to be ceiling mounted. This would add approximately another $1,000 in construction costs to run cables, etc. through some difficult-to-access locations. A shelf-mounted system at the back of the room would be considerably less expensive, less obtrusive when not in use, and minimize length of cable runs to equipment in the back of the room.

The Panasonic AE-700 seems ideally suited. The room is 16 ft long, which would allow projection to a 100-inch screen from the back of the room. My only question is related to brightness. This is not a light-controlled room dedicated to home theater (and I prefer to continue using it in its current capacity as a normal living room).

The projector I’m currently using is nominally rated at 1250 lumens. I’m satisfied with its brightness levels for content watched during daylight hours (primarily cable television shows stored on a TiVo Series II) as well as with DVDs viewed in the evening. The intensity levels of the Sony HS-20 (nominally rated at 1400 lumens) and the Infocus 5700 (nominally rated at 1000 lumens) were also satisfactory.

The Panasonic product brochure claims “the picture is always bright and clear, even in a well-lit room.” (page 2). The Projector Central review comparing the AE-700 with the Sanyo Z3 comments, “… both of these units require a dark room for best performance. (… this is a matter of personal taste - some people are not as bothered by contrast reduction in ambient light as others, and can be quite satisfied to watch the AE700 with lights on.)”

I will not have an opportunity to preview the AE-700 prior to purchase. Does it seem likely that its intensity would be satisfactory for the viewing conditions that I have described?

Cool, thanks for the HTPC info guys. I will take my questions over to the HTPC section of the web site.

tlink:

I'm a little afraid of giving direct advice but I will share my observations:

Before I purchased the 700 my only direct experience with front projectors was the corporate type we're all familiar with and i was VERY nervous about ambient light levels since i'm also using my living room as my HT.

I'd seen the HS20 in a demo room at a local HT store and (with much argument) got them to turn the lights up, and I saw the HS20 wash out fairly badly. In my personal opinion the 700 that I have does much much better in that regard, and I can easily watch anything but the very darkest movies in a room bright enough to comfortably read in (projected on a plain white blackout cloth). Do keep in mind that my observations of the HS20 and 700 were months apart in very different locations so its very subjective, but that's my take. BTW, the 700 is INSANELY better on SDE than the HS20!

Originally posted by JamesAHall
I'm curious--what do people feel the advantage is to a HTPC vs a good DVD player? What features of the HTPC make it worth the extra $$$?

The ability to play HD transport streams and WM9. Ok, not really on the WM9 as there is no content, but lots of HD TS exist.

Originally posted by jasallen
tlink:

I'm a little afraid of giving direct advice but I will share my observations:
... I can easily watch anything but the very darkest movies in a room bright enough to comfortably read in (projected on a plain white blackout cloth).

This is exactly what I needed to know. Conditions vary considerably from location to location, which makes it hard to ascertain likely performance in a given setting.

However, knowing that the AE 700 is being successfully used in somewhat similar circumstances, combined with the comments in the Projector Central review, suggest that the use that I am considering may at least be within the realm of possibility. Thanks!

Going with the AE700..now what setup?
Well I have decided to spend the extra $400 and get a Panny AE700 instead of the Sanyo Z2. Now my next decision is the setup, I will be mounting the PJ on a rear shelf at 16' about 78" off the floor (HVAC ducts hang down) and the top of my screen will be the same, 78". The screen size will be around 90"-96" wide depending on PQ. From eyeball to screen will be about 13'. I am just throwing this out because this is my first HT ever and I want to make sure I am doing this right. As far as cables go what should I use to connect the PJ to my new Onkyo 760? Component? I will be using the Onkyo receiver as a switch for my Xbox, DVD player and Satellite. Other than my DIY screen I think I got everything planned out. I would like to officially thank this forum for all the great info I have been digesting for the past couple of weeks...you guys ROCK!

Thanks for any help

Yesterday, I received the 700, which is replacing the 500. After hooking it up, my daughter and I played Halo. I have XBox setup in progressive scan mode with component cables. First thing I noticed playing Halo is the screen format . It wasn't in the usual 16:9 wide screen format but 4:3. I tried the other games and all of them are now in 4:3 versus the 500, in progressive scan mode gives me a wide screen, 16:9 format.

Is there something I am doing wrong?

Besides this minor issue (doesnt' bother my daughter) the upgrade is worth it to me. DVDs on my Denon 1600 (Progressive Scan) are impressive. The 700 is definitely brighter, which is one important reason why I upgraded.

Thanks...Ron

If your just going to watch dvd's, I see no advantage with an HTPC over a player such as the Momitsu V880 which also can do custom resolutions, play any region dvd's and has component, VGA and DVI output.

Originally posted by ronone10
Yesterday, I received the 700, which is replacing the 500. After hooking it up, my daughter and I played Halo. I have XBox setup in progressive scan mode with component cables. First thing I noticed playing Halo is the screen format . It wasn't in the usual 16:9 wide screen format but 4:3. I tried the other games and all of them are now in 4:3 versus the 500, in progressive scan mode gives me a wide screen, 16:9 format.

Is there something I am doing wrong?

Besides this minor issue (doesnt' bother my daughter) the upgrade is worth it to me. DVDs on my Denon 1600 (Progressive Scan) are impressive. The 700 is definitely brighter, which is one important reason why I upgraded.

Thanks...Ron

Well maybe the scaler in the 700 is aware that it is a 4:3 source. I believe that the 700 has other options for 4:3 like zoom and stretch. Did you try any 16:9 games like pgr2.

I think i am going to take a break from reading this thread. It's too much reading every day. And nothing new exiting happends. The same questions are repeated again and again. Sorry for taking up place on this thread, but i just had to say this.

By the way here is a picture of the bottom of the AE700 that shows the screwholes for ceiling mount. It looks like its the same as AE100-AE500.

Picture of bottom AE700 (http://avforum.no/forum/download.php?id=4026)

And here is AE700 mounted

Mounted AE700 (http://avforum.no/forum/download.php?id=4025)

Exsodius:

Before you stop reading the thread could you tell me what mount is shown in the picture you posted?

Also, how far from the ceiling is the center of the lens?

Thanks

Originally posted by exsodius
I think i am going to take a break from reading this thread. It's too much reading every day. And nothing new exiting happends. The same questions are repeated again and again. Sorry for taking up place on this thread, but i just had to say this.


We're gonna miss you...

After seeing this projector firsthand, I think I am now sold on it. I was planning to buy a Infocus sp5000, but after seeing what this could do on a 120inch screen, If I go 100 inches, it should be even better. I had about a 45 minute demo at a local company called Severtson Corp.(www.projector*************) Their main focus is screens, but are starting with the rest of the goods. After seeing the 700 on their own 120in High Def gray screen, I was amazed. I could walk to within a few feet, before the pixel structure was visible. They first had a WM9 IMAX dvd playing and was for my eyes stunning. After enjoying some high def, I had them switch to the Superbit version of Resident Evil , playing on a Bravo D2, with a dvi to hdmi cable upconverting to 720p. Both my friend and I were amazed. Blacks were dark enough for my eyes, and image quality just made me wonder why would you need to spend more. I happened to be at another store today ordering some in ceiling surround speakers, and decided to look at their Hitachi pj-100tx, playing on a tensioned Stewart screen, and could not believe my eyes. Pixel structure was so obvious I could not live with it, and this projector is almost twice the price retail. The one question I am concerned about, is if I mount it to my 8ft ceiling and shoot it to a 100 inch screen, How much lens shift am I going to have to use? About how much drop from the ceiling do I need. It sounds like from what I have read, that If flush mounting to the ceiling, you have to use almost all the lens shift, which may degrade the picture. I figure on mounting between 10-13 feet away from the screen. So should I buy a flush mounting system, or something with some drop to it? I am thinking of going with a Carada High def gray screen, due to price, otherwise I would buy one of the screens from the people I had the demo with, but the 100inch was twice the Carada.

I have a very low ceiling in my basement 6.5'. I plan to ceiling mount the PJ at the rear, about 12' away from the screen which will measure 45"x80" . Now given the 700's throw and lens shift constraints, will the 700 work in my basement? After months of research I've decided on the PJ, I just want to make sure that with the limitations of my room it will work before I buy it. Thanks for your thoughts.

Originally posted by mikeyc
I have a very low ceiling in my basement 6.5'. I plan to ceiling mount the PJ at the rear, about 12' away from the screen which will measure 45"x80" . Now given the 700's throw and lens shift constraints, will the 700 work in my basement? After months of research I've decided on the PJ, I just want to make sure that with the limitations of my room it will work before I buy it. Thanks for your thoughts.

Not sure why everyone asks the same questions over and over again, just get out a calculator.

But the answer is yes, it will work. Although you will be near the limits on both vertical shift and zoom. Whatever you do, make sure you at least mount it in such a way that the lense is horizontally centered on your screen (so you don't have to use any horizontal lens shift).

I hope they ship SOON because I can't wait any longer, my head is going to explode. Looking forward to watching movies instead of reading this forum :)

It is tiring reading this thread...lol...

Have any Canadians received an AE700 yet?

:)

Originally posted by TraderGordo
For me its a "no brainer" (man I hate that phrase). A HTPC (which really doesn't cost much more than a good progressive scan DVD player with HDMI) gives you progressive scan DVD playback,

All good reasons. However an HTPC is also:

1- A flag reader. So poorly flagged DVDs will fall over.
2- Unless you use FFDSHOW, the GPU based scaling will not be nearly as good as a decent DVD player. Pop in AVIA and display the 200TVL res patter and look at the 6.75Mhz patch. Not so pretty with any current GPU. Although NVIDIA looks better than ATI by a wide margin in the scaling department.
3- Poolry integrated. Unless the user is commited to a lot of work with Girder and what-not the HTPC is NOT plug and play. The exception to this is WindowsXP Media Center which boasts killer integration and and slick UI, with the 2005 version you get ATSC support too. Unfortunatly most MC PCs sold today are quite lame, although you can build you own now. The drawback is it is the most expensive of the PC based PVR software packages, but hey, you get a copy of XP with it too.

Obligatory on-topic talking point: I ams till waiting for my AE700 and I will post a shootout between it and my SE20HD. Arrrrggggg!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockytopps


1) pretty simple: I want a 106" diagonal screen. I also want the PQ to be as good as it can possibly be. Now, is it more ideal to place/mount the 700 in a way that you can avoid using the zoom. In other words, is the picture better if you place it 21.4 ft. away and not use the zoom or maybe 15 ft. away and using the zoom?

2) my ceiling in my bonus room is 10 ft. high so if I ceiling mount it, I am guessing that I will need a rod to hang the PJ down to the necessary position. I have also thought about possibly placing it on a shelf at the rear of the room. Either way, I suppose I would have to use the Vertical lens shift to project to the screen. I have read on here that a combination of the lens shift and the zoom reduces PQ, so if true I would like to avoid that if possible.

3) The only place in the room that I can place a screen is directly on top/covering the only window in the room. It is a double window. Do any of you experts see this as a problem? This is really the only source of ambient light, but should be blocked by the screen along with the blinds that are on the window. I might get the Da-Lite Cosmo Electrol screen with either the Matte white or the High Contrast Matte White(which I believe to be gray). Any suggestions or help regarding this would be much appreciated.


1) (quote from Projector Central) "For those whose rooms allow options on projector placement, a longer throw distance is the better choice. That is because you want to create a narrow cone of projected light so that the light strikes the screen from edge to edge as close to perpendicular as possible. This will produce a more even reflection of light from the screen. Ideally, we like to avoid the extreme ends of the zoom range also since lenses tend to be less optically efficient at their extremes. Therefore, as an example if you were planning to install the AE700 to accommodate a 100" screen and you could choose anywhere between ten and twenty feet throw distance, then somewhere in the range of about 18 feet would be an optimum placement for best overall results. (There appears to be a subtle increase in pixelation on the AE700 at the extreme long end of the lens which goes away quickly as you move the lens a bit away from the end point".

2) Mine isn't here yet, but I recall there are several posts on this thread on the subject of PQ degradation when the zoom & lens shift on the 700 are simultaneously used to any great degree.

PQ can also be affected, apparently, even when only the zoom or lens shift is individually pushed toward its own limits. I think I saw a post or two here regarding it, as well as the brief mention in the above PC quote.

3) ( Off the 700 topic, but I'll squeeze it in) I think it's safe to say that it simply boils down to two things

A- The possibility of light passing through your screen if it is not entirely opaque.

B- An increase of ambient light in your room, if the window is not well "blacked out".

A roll-up blackout shade, available at Home Depot and many other sources, can significantly reduce both problems at once. It will also "go away" readily when it's time to entertain some of those normal, healthy types who like to be able to see their hands in front of their faces. If that Da-Lite screen's a roll-up, you might need a spacer board (or two) behind its housing to clear the blackout shade. For the ambient light issue, I have seen people use shades large enough to overlap the window all around by 6" or so to more effectively block the light. If that Da-Lite screen is absolutely opaque (many screens are not), significantly larger than the window, and lays closely against the window, that may be all you need.

Others may have better answers/ideas. Good luck

KongFan

Originally posted by dazbug
Im almost se ton 700 as i can rear wall mount it which gives a better pic. .

One question if someone can clear it up

If I run a Denon 2910 to 700 via HDMI will i get the missing pixels or is it just through HTPC ???

Can anyone confirm or deny this who is using a hdmi dvd player to projector

Originally posted by Milehigh
I didn't think you could even get one of these projectors yet, surely not retail, unless you're referring to reviewers and such...


At least 40 of these projectors are already in customers' hands as one of the site's received a shipment of 40 on Oct 7th and sent them out to their customers. It seems like only 3-4 of these people come to this site though, or more accurately, 3-4 people who've seen these units but not necessarily own them.

And thanks bapenguin for the additional answers. If I could get more replies from owners of the initial shipment or people who've seen the projectors in action, perhaps we'ld all have a better idea of what issues the projectors themselves might have and what issues are caused by extraneous factors.

Originally posted by ianken
...
3- Poolry integrated. Unless the user is commited to a lot of work with Girder and what-not the HTPC is NOT plug and play.

You must think out of the box. Get Airboard keyboard with IR receiver, pc programmable remote (like MX700) and forget about Girder. To automate ZP playback from remote it took me ~15mins including learning codes from IR keyboard to PC, creating all button on MX700 and testing that.
I can fully control all my HTPC (Meedio, SageTV, ZP, custom operations) from remote only and i use Girder only to use DVDSpy for VFD screen (all is preconfigured - install and setup took few mins).

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Curious to know how many people have already received their AE700U's and set them up? Been browsing this forum for a while getting as much info as possible and have finally decided to post some questions.

The questions I have are specifically for the forumites who've already gotten their AE700U's and calibrated/used them.

1) Do you see VB in your projector?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but only very slight and not noticeable except for certain scenes
c)Not at all even with a gray field test.

2) If there was VB, could you get rid of it with the flicker tweak?
a)Yes
b)Reduced it but VB is still there
c)No

3)Any color uniformity problems especially with gray fields?
a)Yes
b)Yes, but not noticeable in normal viewing content
c)No

4) Do you notice the dynamic iris in effect?
a)Yes (if yes, what transitions made it noticeable?)
b)Occasionally
c)No

5)If you notice the dynamic iris in effect, was it detracting from your viewing experience?
a)Yes
b)Initially, but stopped noticing it after a while
c)No

6)At what distance do you notice SDE expressed in feet (also noting the width of your screen or as a ratio of screen width? e.g 5 feet from 96" wide screen or 1.3x

7)If you have experience with other projectors, what is your opinion about the 'soft' image that some others have expressed with the AE700U?

1) B- VB on my 700 seems to be dependent on the temperature of the PJ. VB is visible for about the first 30 minutes and then gradually diminishes to the point where it disappears. The Flicker fix works, but if set when the PJ is relatively cold it needs to be reset after it warms up. So far, the blue and red screens seem stable and only the green screen needs to be flicker adjusted. Gray fields once flicker is adjusted are VB free.

2) A- Yes see above

3) C- No, gray field uniformity from Avia looks excellent.

4) C- No

5) C- No

6) SDE is not visible until maybe 4 or 5 feet from the screen. I'm using a 118" diag. screen.

7) This is my first projector, but to me the image looks anything but soft.

I've had the 700 for 9 days and have about 50+ hours on it and I remain extremely pleased.

I don't know if this is normal or not, but I tend to get ALOT more of the peek-a-boo horizontal lines, and somewhat vertical during the first several minutes of operation, and it doesn't REALLY smooth completely out until the 20 - 30 minutes range. Not really a problem for me, but I'm curious if this is normal in digital projectors (or maybe just in LCDs?)

Is the filter Cine4Home uses an external lens filter or something else? Which filter will I need. Also I will be renting Colorfacts calibration software and hardware.

Thanks

2ntense, I think the exact filter you will need depends on your actual unit's personality in the sense of green strength and red weakness. I am sure Cone4home was using external filters and not opening up the chassis and cutting down filter material to stick inside the box.

BTW, PLEASE let me know how you make out with the Colorfacts rental, and calibrate for all inputs being used that require critical conditions (you determine this based on your needs) and for the sources you plan on using.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
I hope they ship SOON because I can't wait any longer, my head is going to explode. Looking forward to watching movies instead of reading this forum :)

*EricBres sits back quietly and awaits the flutter of excited posts that are about to hit within the next few hours because tracking is up and another 150 have been shipped in the US ... :cool: *

So ... anyone shooting scary movies from their new AE700 onto the garage door for all the trick-o-treaters?

Originally posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4542538#post4542538) by djbluemax1
At least 40 of these projectors are already in customers' hands as one of the site's received a shipment of 40 on Oct 7th and sent them out to their customers. It seems like only 3-4 of these people come to this site though, or more accurately, 3-4 people who've seen these units but not necessarily own them.

And thanks bapenguin for the additional answers. If I could get more replies from owners of the initial shipment or people who've seen the projectors in action, perhaps we’d all have a better idea of what issues the projectors themselves might have and what issues are caused by extraneous factors. As stated earlier (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4494523#post4494523), I was able to acquire a demo unit back in early October from Panasonic's SW Regional Sales Rep. It was explained to me that at the end of September 100 AE700's were sent to the US. 10 were for demo purposes only with one being allocated to each of the seven regional sales reps for the US market. 90 units were allocated for early sales.

Considering the amount of interest in this projector with a lot of my fellow Austin HT’ers, I have been taking it around town for others to see how it might look in their home theaters. As an added benefit to myself, and others these demos/comparisons have also allowed me to asses which screen will work best with the AE700 and in my theater environment.

It was pretty clear right away that several of us were all interested in replacing our current projectors for the AE700, but considering the lack of dealer support in our area, trying to find one at a reasonable cost locally was not looking good. I considered buying one from Visual Apex, but even with their reduced price, the fact that they charge a 15% restocking fee and shipping if you want to exchange your projector due to dead pixels or vertical banding made me less than enthusiastic. Since then I have now come to find out that there is already a back order on the projectors and it is quite possible that some people who have already placed orders may not get their projector for several weeks!

After doing quite a bit if research and negotiating I was able to work out a really nice Power-Buy with a dealer who would not charge any restocking fee should any of us end up with a faulty projector, and who could guarantee us projectors from the first official shipment.

Availability was definitely an issue for many of us so the dealer explained precisely how the distribution of the AE700 works:

Apparently the official shipment from Panasonic is due to arrive on October 26th. Each of the seven regional sales managers is allocated exactly one seventh of the shipment and then they allocate those to their dealers. Why this is important is that that means the maximum number of units each sales manager can allocate to one dealer is limited, but the large internet dealers by all appearances have taken orders in excess of their allocation. Apparently the gamble is that the other sales managers will not have enough paid orders from their dealers and any unit not paid for by the 27th gets reallocated to other regions with pending orders. This would ordinarily work out as long as individual orders do not exceed the entire US allocation.

The good news is that at least in my opinion, after now logging several hours with this projector and seeing it compared to over half a dozen other HT projectors in various HT environments with just as many different types of screens – I can with all confidence say that if you are willing to wait, you most definitely will not be disappointed. It is a remarkable machine!

BTW: We just had another demo/comparison (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2425780#post2425780) last night in Austin in a large dedicated home theater with a 110” Vutec SilverStar and a BenQ 8700 HD2+ DLP projector. Once I have more time I’ll post my thoughts on the demo, but I will at least say that I would not recommend the SilverStar with the AE700, or even the BenQ 8700. In fact after pointing out some of the “artifacts” that were being caused specifically from the screen due to the material, even the home owner is now considering selling it and replacing it with another screen. I will also say that I am completely and horribly disappointed by the Zenith DVB318 DVD player! At least from what we all have seen over the last couple weeks with this player I would not recommend this player to ANYONE, which comes at a great disappointment to me as I had high hopes for having the option of 720p over component and DCDi processing, but apparently that new 2300 chip set is having some serious problems. In fact, the player got worse when we switched it from 480p to 720p!

Anyway, I’ll try and offer a more thorough review later on.


Nils Luehrmann

Wow, I'm sure glad I got in early on the preorder and got my projector last week. I wanted to have it by November 9th in time for Halo 2, and looks like there's a lot of people that won't!

Oh my goodness! What a tragedy... so many poor souls suffering the lack of a new projector in time for the release of Halo2. I think we may have a national crisis on our hands. Call Bush! Hahaha! :)

reap

Thanks to JDEATON for more feedback on the 700u.

Originally posted by AustinTexas
The good news is that at least in my opinion, after now logging several hours with this projector and seeing it compared to over half a dozen other HT projectors in various HT environments with just as many different types of screens – I can with all confidence say that if you are willing to wait, you most definitely will not be disappointed. It is a remarkable machine!
Nils Luehrmann

Nils, thanks for more feedback on the 700u and which screens have you previewed so far and which do you like best for the 700u? Amazing that there are so many pending orders nationwide and worldwide! I guess fairly soon, there will be a whole wave of feedback on the 700u. Pity that out of the initial 90 units distributed , so few people have posted any opinions and details here.

Originally posted by Ericbres
*EricBres sits back quietly and awaits the flutter of excited posts that are about to hit within the next few hours because tracking is up and another 150 have been shipped in the US ... :cool: *


Any word on what dealers are getting this shipment? Last I checked my dealer (Projector Point) was still saying next week...

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Plenty of people are using this projector with HTPC and DVI cable. You can get a DVI to HDMI cable, or an HDMI to HDMI cable with an HDMI-DVI adapter. I have not heard anyone comment on using just straight up (no powerstrip) 1280x720 standard res that most modern video cards support, but several people have commented on this projector working with powerstrip's standard 1280x720 (over DVI).

Personally I will be starting with VGA only mostly because my HighDef card (AccessDTV) doesn't support DVI (in fact, I think there is only one HD card that does support DVI). Eventually I'll probably upgrade, or possibly run VGA for HD card only and DVI for PC.

hi, many friends of mine are waiting for a panny 700...
... they would like to connect it to HTPC via DVI cable to HDMI input but, I don't know why, they are afraid of the fact that panny 700 can't accept PC input via HDMI but only via VGA input.

Are they wrong?

Me, I don't have that kind of problem since I play with a Z2. But it would be a sin if what they can't link HDMI to PC.

Thank you.

Originally posted by 3mentina
Are they wrong?

Yes.

Originally posted by glennzippy
Any word on what dealers are getting this shipment? Last I checked my dealer (Projector Point) was still saying next week...


It's one of the forum sponsors ;)

Originally posted by AustinTexas
Here is where it’s going to get interesting. As of Monday, there were already over 1,500 pending orders in the US! This means at least, and probably quite a few more than 300 people with orders will not be getting their projectors any time soon. In fact it has been reported that the world wide demand for the AE700 is so great that Panasonic has over 10,000 pending orders!

Nils Luehrmann

As I have stated earlier ...
Believe 80% of what you SEE and 20% of what you HEAR.
There are a whole lot of dealers out there who have been making promises they simply cannot keep (as has been seen by missed promised dates). And quoting shipping policies that Panasonic simply doesn't follow.

So far I have seen 4 on-line dealers websites promising product from the "first shipment into the United States". We are already through the 2nd shipment ... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by glennzippy
Any word on what dealers are getting this shipment? Last I checked my dealer (Projector Point) was still saying next week...

The same place that shipped them last time.

Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but there's a recent review up on http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/panasonic_ae700.shtml

It's not as hugely detailed as the cine4home review, but any information is good information. Includes a comparison to the TW100 and the Infocus 4805

I'm hoping to see a few more posts on this site from some of you lucky owners. Specifically, a comparison to other projectors you might have seen in basic terms of brightness, sharpness, contrast, black level. There have been some and that's great.

But this projector seems to be a major leap forward in feature set for the price point. I'd love to hear how it compares to some more of the upper/mid-range, specifically the BenQ PE8700+. I remember reading about 30 pages back that someone was going to have the opportunity to see the BenQ vs. the AE700. I've been rereading this posting every day looking for an update, as the AE700 is just so much cheaper, if it's even close to quality I'm sold.

I'm looking for that magic mix of price and performance, and I haven't seen anyone in Canada getting an order yet, so there doesn't seem to be any place close to check it out. I'm completely reliant on what's presented on the internet.

FOR ALL YOU DESPERATE PEOPLE WAITING FOR THE AE700.


If you guys CANNOT wait for the US distributors to get your orders, you can buy from Japan (with translated manual) for a better price. It'll only take several days to order one.

Hmm. And if I'd just read a little harder, I would have spotted AutinTexas's comments a little further up. Thanks, and looking forward to your expanded review.

Originally posted by Ericbres
The same place that shipped them last time.

How the heck are those guys getting a second shipment before any other dealer has even gotten a first shipment? They must have some connections (owner buddies with someone important at Pannasonic?) or they are importing them from another (English speaking) country?

I guess I should have kept my order with those guys instead of switching to the other forum sponsor with the lower price :)

Originally posted by TraderGordo
How the heck are those guys getting a second shipment before any other dealer has even gotten a first shipment? They must have some connections (owner buddies with someone important at Pannasonic?) or they are importing them from another (English speaking) country?

I guess I should have kept my order with those guys instead of switching to the other forum sponsor with the lower price :)


Trader,

I can assure you that these models are purchased directly from Panasonic.:)

Oh well... I can wait another week or so I suppose. Besides, I still have a bunch of work to do in the basement before I can really enjoy the beast. I've heard too many stories of how people have almost stopped working on their project because the equipment came in.

Seing as I'm just now finishing my framing, I can stand to have the thing show up down the road a bit.

I really need to get some shots up soon...

Originally posted by AustinTexas
[

BTW: We just had another demo/comparison (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2425780#post2425780) last night in Austin in a large dedicated home theater with a 110” Vutec SilverStar and a BenQ 8700 HD2+ DLP projector. Once I have more time I’ll post my thoughts on the demo, but I will at least say that I would not recommend the SilverStar with the AE700, or even the BenQ 8700. In fact after pointing out some of the “artifacts” that were being caused specifically from the screen due to the material, even the home owner is now considering selling it and replacing it with another screen. I will also say that I am completely and horribly disappointed by the Zenith DVB318 DVD player! At least from what we all have seen over the last couple weeks with this player I would not recommend this player to ANYONE, which comes at a great disappointment to me as I had high hopes for having the option of 720p over component and DCDi processing, but apparently that new 2300 chip set is having some serious problems. In fact, the player got worse when we switched it from 480p to 720p!

Anyway, I’ll try and offer a more thorough review later on.


Nils Luehrmann [/B]

Please hurry! :)

John

There seems to be a lot of contradictory information regarding mysterious shipments from "a dealer" in Florida.

I just checked with the regional sales manager at Panasonic who is helping coordinate the PowerBuy and he knows for a fact exactly how many AE700's have been shipped to the US so far and how many are coming in on October 26th and who they are currently allocated for.

The reason there are some early units being sold is that AVI (aka Projector People) in Florida was able to get most of the early release AE700's because they agreed to take a bunch of AE500's off Panasonic's inventory.

As for the remark from EricBres:Originally posted by Ericbres
*EricBres sits back quietly and awaits the flutter of excited posts that are about to hit within the next few hours because tracking is up and another 150 have been shipped in the US ... :cool: * This is incorrect, or at least very misleading. These and the rest of the shipment are currently being shipped TO (not in) the US and are scheduled to arrive at Panasonic's distribution center in the Northwest on October 26th. From there they will be shipped off to the dealers as allocated by the regional sales managers. With each of the seven regions getting an equal share it is not dificult to do the math and realize many of the large inline retailers have over extended themselves with orders. I know these facts as they effect the PowerBuy that our Austin HT group put together. In other words, because we agreed to purchase these in quantity he gave our group first dibs at his allocation of 170 projectors. This was a critical part of our agreement because none of us wanted to be in line waiting for back orders to get filled in order to get our projectors. Now anything that isn't sold in a PowerBuy would go to other individual dealers or sent to other regions which may give the large retailers who have over extended themselves with accepting orders beyond their allocations a chance to satisfy at least some of the customers.

I suspect we should heed the advice of Eric when reading his remarks?Originally posted by Ericbres
As I have stated earlier ...
Believe 80% of what you SEE and 20% of what you HEAR.
There are a whole lot of dealers out there who have been making promises they simply cannot keep (as has been seen by missed promised dates). And quoting shipping policies that Panasonic simply doesn't follow.

So far I have seen 4 on-line dealers websites promising product from the "first shipment into the United States". We are already through the 2nd shipment ... :rolleyes: Considering you said "We" it is safe to assume you work for Projector People, and while it may be technically true that you have gone through two shipments (after all, you can ship one projector one week and another the next and technically speaking you just went through two shipments), but the fact still remains that everyone, including Projector People are waiting on the Oct. 26th shipment. It is not true that you are tracking 150 AE700's being shipped in the US - they have not arrived yet. I know this because I and many others in the PowerBuy are pacing back and forth waiting for the very same shipment and the same allocation.

I wouldn't have called you out Eric, but it seemed very unreasonable to me to see you commenting about "believing 80% of what you SEE and 20% of what you HEAR." when you yourself are posting inaccurate/misleading remarks. I actually agree with your statement, but let's not prove it to be true by offering an example of why we should only believe 80% of what we see and 20% of what we hear.

Let's keep it straight and clear so no one is left scratching their heads wondering what the facts are.

I have the AE-700 on order and am supposed to have it within the next few weeks. I've been considering spending a bit more and ordering the HS-51 instead. Both seem to be great projectors but one concern makes me consider the Sony. There are a few too many reports of vertical banding an the 700 (as reported on other threads). Some say it's the same as the 500. Of course the HS-51 has it's downside, more screendoor and higher price (plus a longer wait). There is one thing that I can't seem to find information on anywhere. Does the AE-700 have 12-bit processing after the degamma as the HS-51 does? The Sony review on the Widescreenreview website describes the lack of banding:
"Sony is one of the only manufacturers to incorporate 12-bit processing after degamma. Significant banding results from 8-bit processing, but 10-bit is very good. However, 12-bit processing results in exceptionally smooth gray scale ramps totally devoid of banding."

Austin Texas,
Your post, in it's entirety, belongs in a PM ... and, after receiving your PM 3 hours ago, I asssumed that's where you prefered to communicate.

**** Edit ****
I won't be dragged into a personal attack.
Send me a PM ... get your Panasonic Rep on the phone, I will give you my number.
You will also note that, I AM at work ... and when you call the Receptionist, you will note that she will probably be very confused if you ask her if you are calling Projector People (doofus)