Originally posted by awtryau89


I might also mention these images are from a Pioneer Elite 59AVi DVD using HDMI at 480i. Sorry if they do not look so good. I am working with my camera to get the best shots but still learning. These were converted and shrunk down to get them on the thread.

I've got the Pioneer 969avi, sister model to the 59avi and am running HDMI. It defaults to 720p into the HS51 to match it's native res, how are you getting yours to output at 480i or other rezs? I would like to make mine switch to outputting 1080i.

part 2 of cine4home's review is up...

reap

Originally posted by OzHDHT
I've got the Pioneer 969avi, sister model to the 59avi and am running HDMI. It defaults to 720p into the HS51 to match it's native res, how are you getting yours to output at 480i or other rezs? I would like to make mine switch to outputting 1080i.

Initial Settings> Options> HDMI Settings> Scroll to your desired resolution.

I was able to attend CES this year. My first time in Vegas and CES!

I saw two HS51s on the Sony Black screen. The one in the LCD panel booth was incredible. It looked very nice. The one in the Sony booth looked real nice also. It was not setup as nice as the one in the LCD booth because there was a lot more ambient light. But thats the point of the black screen. It was very good for the amount of light.

I dropped by the Sony booth to discuss some of the issues posted here. I asked them about Panel Convergence and 720p on HDMI.

1) Panel Convergence.
I told one of the reps in the booth about the misconvergence on my HS51 and of others here on this thread. This rep was surprised to hear there was any problem because he is in the repair/return area of Sony and said he would hear about a return like this. Not sure why he hadnt heard about it but he accepted it occured and we moved on. I asked him how they were aligned in the factory and if there was a tolerance. He was able to talk to some of the engineers for me and came back with the answer. He said the panels are aligned by machine and there was a 1 pixel tolerance. He would not go into any details but said if there was more than 1 pixel misconvergence then there is a problem. I didnt get much more of him than that.

2) 720p over HDMI
I asked him about this and he smiled because they had just had meetings about the issue. He said they knew about the issue and were looking into it. They had not determined if it is a problem with the projector or the HDMI protocal/chipset. Apparantly they had some meetings with HDMI people or the people who did their HDMI chipset and seemed to infer there maybe an issue there. He would not say anything definite because they do not know the source of the issue yet. But he did seem to infer that the chipset may not be passing thru a 720p signal, instead it is rescaling somehow. Again he was not very clear and was purposely vague.

I was encouraged that they knew of the issue and were persuing it but discouraged in what the solutions may be. If it is a chipset issue then they would have to get a new chipset into the design. This would likely be a running change and I am not sure how they would address current product in the field. Would it be under warranty? Not sure. If it is a problem with how the projector deals with the info then that maybe an easy fix with new firmware or such. We will just have to wait and see what they find.


If you want to see the pictures my friend and I took at the show check out this gallery.

http://www.pbase.com/jsjames/ces_2005

This is not a Sony HS51 gallery but rather pics from all over the show.

Bryan, if you wanna stir up some discussion just go post that 1080P Fujitsu pciture in the Rich Folks digital forum. :)

BTW, are you saying that the HS51 setup in the LCD demo with better-controlled lighting did a better job than the one in the Sony demo area projecting onto a Sony Black screen? How much ambient light was there?

Originally posted by TheFerret

BTW, are you saying that the HS51 setup in the LCD demo with better-controlled lighting did a better job than the one in the Sony demo area projecting onto a Sony Black screen? How much ambient light was there?

I think it's funny that this is the one demo that all the Sony and LCD bashers have latched onto to claim the HS51 is just hype. I've read 2 reports now that both said the iris was turned off on that demo to increase the brightness.

By the way Ferret...haven't you received your projector yet? I'm debating keeping mine and putting my G70 in temporary storage since I can't ceiling mount the G70 (long story).

Gary

Gary, thanks for the enlightening aspect--I actually missed that part about the iris being in a mode other than auto! I wasn't looking at the comments, though, as being a bash on the projector, but rather the Sony screen. LOL

Does anyone know how to get the Input-A in Computer mode - Not Video GBR to recconize 480P as 856X480, instead of 640X480?

Anything in factory menu? Service menu?

What I have is an X-box with the VGA adaptor. The HS51 in computer mode just displays the signal without modification. In Video GBR the Sonys video proccessing come in to play!

My X-boxs games that are 720P support work great in computer mode. 1280X720 16X9 widescreen

But all my 480P games are output to 640X480 4X3, And then the image is all streached vertically.


The Video GBR mode crushes blacks, has a very bad edge sharpping things going on. and colors arnt as accurate - This also happens on everyother connection on the unit, and I am very suprised to hear you guys arnt freaking out about this more then anything else.

The Sony has preset signal inputs, I need to set one up for 856X480 - and 720X480. Please help, I dont want to have to buy a dvdo and output everty thing to VGA at 1280X720!

Hey Guys,

I just received my HS51, and it looks great (with no tuning yet). Can't wait to play with it some.

Quick question though... my receiver (Pioneer Elite 56txi) has 2 input components and no hdmi/div inputs. Altogether, I want to run 3 sources to the projector (XBox, HD Cable box and DVD).

I can only use 2 component connections (at most), and both the DVD and Cable box can go HDMI. My DVD player is the Pioneer Elite 59AVR.

Which of the cable box or DVD Player (or both) would you recommend getting HDMI cables for (10 foot run, so don't want to waste money)?

Any advice is highly appreciated as I am a projector newbie.

Thanks.

The vga input should just take what it gets so the culprit should be your XBOX. You have it set to widescreen?

The Video GBR mode crushes blacks, has a very bad edge sharpping things going on. and colors arnt as accurate - This also happens on everyother connection on the unit, and I am very suprised to hear you guys arnt freaking out about this more then anything else.

I have never changed modes from the default, have not needed to. The VGA Input A takes whatever resolution I give it from my HTPC but I always feed it 720p pixel perfect.

Brian

Which of the cable box or DVD Player (or both) would you recommend getting HDMI cables for (10 foot run, so don't want to waste money)?

Depends. Does the cable box have a vga output? If so, use that for hi def. The dvd player would then be sent via hdmi but if you send 720p you will get the cropping. 1080i would be the best bet. XBOX can go via component (or vga with an after market adapter).

Brian

I want to connect my iScan HD+ to the HS51 via INPUT A just for fun and to see if I can achieve full 1280 x 720 pixel perfect mapping.

Has anyone tried this?

There is a preset for 1280 x 768 but not for 1280 x 720.

Do I need to start with 1280 x 768 and then customize using the Output Timing Control Menu.

Thanks!

Gary

I find it hard to imagine the Iscan will not output a default 720p timing. This is sometimes referred to as "tripling" or "tripled."

Brian

Actually the iScan HD+ is currently set for 1280 x 720p and my current output is DVI.

I assumed since the manual states that the color space for this preset is YPbPr that this preset would not work for colorspace RGB.

The presets listed for RGB do not list 1280 x 720.

Gary

I've been playing around with the IMX lens and think I'm seeing results. On a still image I really can't tell much difference, but on an actual moving picture it seems to decrease SDE subtly but effectively. (No screen shots for you yet...maybe tonight.) Not sure if it's ultimately more effective than slightly defocusing the pic, though. I'm still comparing.

USA Brian,

Unfortunately my Cable box does not have VGA output. Since my DVD player can support 1080i, I think I'll get the HDMI cable for it and keep my cable box on Component (as it looks really good, at least to me).

Thanks for you reply!

Well I just ordered my hs51 from the powerbuy and should get on wednesday. I hope to be able to add some thoughts by the weekend, mainly a comparison between the hs10 and the hs51...

Ferret I dont understand your Fujitsu comment. We saw that demo (right next to the HS51) and we thought it looked really good. Very bright also. I do not know what screen they used.

I was not bashing the Sony Black Screen in any way. Both Demos looked good but the one at the 3LCD booth looked better due to be ambient light control. They isolated the demo from surrounding light where the one in the Sony booth was right out in the open. Both demos used the Sony black screen. I liked it enough that I would consider getting one when they are available.

Bryan

Bryan, I didn't mean to suggest you were bashing it. On the contrary, I thought your words were fairly honest and with objectivity. I just found your objective observation interesting.

My Fujitsu comment was more to stir the pot in the other forum. For the longest time LCD was considered to be the bottom of barrel in terms of digital technology performance and here we have an example of a $25K LCD people are making positive comments about.

and here we have an example of a $25K LCD people are making positive comments about.

Do you get the feeling sometimes like I do that if it were a $3,500 list LCD instead of a $25,000 list LCD, the same people would be crapping all over it?

Brian

Yessir!

Originally posted by JJay
Well I just ordered my hs51 from the powerbuy and should get on wednesday. I hope to be able to add some thoughts by the weekend, mainly a comparison between the hs10 and the hs51...

What powerbuy is tha? AVS?

Here is a quick screenshot of my HS51 with and without the IMX lens:

Left: Focused, no IMX lens
Middle: Focused, with the IMX lens
Right: Defocused, no IMX lens

Look at the middle of the D for the best (IMO) comparison point. The interesting thing is that, even though defocusing looks in this still (and in person on a paused screen) to smooth out screendoor more, for a moving picture the IMX lens is quite a bit better than defocusing. At first I thought defocusing would get you about 80% of what an IMX lens does, but in action I think it only gets you about 30-50% of the IMX effect.

Defocusing and using the IMX lens does not seem to buy you anything at all.

Even with the IMX lens (and I'm still not sure I have it fully "tuned" right) SDE is a bit problematic for me on the HS51, but much less so than before.

(Photos were of the menu screen of Dark City, taken about 2 feet away from the screen on an angle.)

Originally posted by craige17
Here is a quick screenshot of my HS51 with and without the IMX lens:

Left: Focused, no IMX lens
Middle: Focused, with the IMX lens
Right: Defocused, no IMX lens

Look at the middle of the D for the best (IMO) comparison point. The interesting thing is that, even though defocusing looks in this still (and in person on a paused screen) to smooth out screendoor more, for a moving picture the IMX lens is quite a bit better than defocusing. At first I thought defocusing would get you about 80% of what an IMX lens does, but in action I think it only gets you about 30-50% of the IMX effect.

Defocusing and using the IMX lens does not seem to buy you anything at all.

Even with the IMX lens (and I'm still not sure I have it fully "tuned" right) SDE is a bit problematic for me on the HS51, but much less so than before.

(Photos were of the menu screen of Dark City, taken about 2 feet away from the screen on an angle.)

Looking also to buy the HS51. Few questions:

1. What size and type of screen are you projecting on?
2. From how far are you viewing the screen?
3. Been reading about the IMX lens. How much was it? How does it get installed?
4. Haven't seen the HS51 actually running. Is the SDE so bad that it's unwatchable? Many reviews seem to be very positive for this unit but wondering if the negative reviews are from those looking for the perfect PQ.

Thanks.

dyp

dyp:

1: Stewart Studiotek 1.3 gain screen, 84" wide
2. 10 feet or so. even at around 15 feet back i see SDE tho
3. retails for $495, it just fits over the HS51 lens (very easy)
4. most people seem to be reporting that SDE is not a huge factor for them with the HS51. unfortunately I see it quite a bit. if you read through this thread you'll find an earlier discussion about it.

like everything else SDE is very subjective, so ymmv.

Originally posted by craige17
dyp:

1: Stewart Studiotek 1.3 gain screen, 84" wide
2. 10 feet or so. even at around 15 feet back i see SDE tho
3. retails for $495, it just fits over the HS51 lens (very easy)
4. most people seem to be reporting that SDE is not a huge factor for them with the HS51. unfortunately I see it quite a bit. if you read through this thread you'll find an earlier discussion about it.

like everything else SDE is very subjective, so ymmv.

So other than the SDE, are you happy with the projector? Would you recommend it? Been looking at AE700 but the VB, HDMI, and the white flash problems are steering me towards the Sony projector.

dyp

My only other complaint is that I find the HS51 *slightly* dim. (Again, lots of people disagree.) Otherwise I love it. Great colors. Great black levels with the Iris on auto. The thing is whisper quiet. Easy to use. SDE aside I'd give it a 9 out of 10. With SDE (for me) it's more like 6 or 7 out of 10.

1: Stewart Studiotek 1.3 gain screen, 84" wide
2. 10 feet or so. even at around 15 feet back i see SDE tho

Come on, you see SDE at 2.1 x width? People thought I was anal about this...

Brian

Thought I'd post my opinions regarding my HS51. I'm on day two. So far here is what I've got.

After seeing a demo at a local retailer I thought that Cinema mode would be too dim. So I ordered a 110" Stewart Firehawk to go with it.

Until the screen comes in I am projecting onto a flat primered wall. I started by warming up the projector and running it through the Sound and Vision tuning process by Ovation Software. My worries about the picture being dim were unjustified. The picture is amazing.

There is SDE but it is not a big issue for me.

Fast motion seems to be choppy. The worst scene I can point to as an example is the opening battle in Gladiator, but I'm not sure if the Director shot the scene that way or if it's my equipment. (XBOX via psyclone component cables)

I sat down to watch Nemo today and noticed what I would call vertical banding. See attached pic. I'm a newbie, so I could be wrong. I also have these issue posted on the tweak thread.

I hope that there is an adjustment I can make to get rid of this, as I love everything else about the projector.

Playing XBOX on the HS51 is awesome, especially in 720P.

Anyone else running into similar issue? Any advice to offer? Thanks!

Come on, you see SDE at 2.1 x width? People thought I was anal about this...

Yep, I can clearly see SDE even at 15 feet away. Crazy, I know, but there you have it. And I don't think it has anything to do with your being anal tho ;-)

Gladiator definitely has "choppy" scenes, they mess with the frames per second to give it a strobe like effect, especially in action sequences. Other movies such as King Arthur have used the same "choppy" effect.

I had totally forgotten about that scene style. Yes, it is meant to be that way!

Brian

Craige17, would you say that in the image of the Defocused screen shoot for the IMX scenarios, is the amount of defocus you used the minimum necessary to achieve what is being achieved by the IMX, or would you say that you might be using a little too much defocus?

Also, how did you capture the images? Can you take some macro photos? I was thinking about a test pattern with alternating black/white pixels on a 1280x720 field via RGB (Input-A). My concern is that the material used may already lend itself to a less than sharp image content, and as a result not accurate reflect the full potential of the methods employed.

Dave:

Like some have said here, VB is a result of electrical load on a projector(re:Pan AE800). I have an admittedly "dirty" electrical system in my house. No Ground, 75 year old wiring, and while I never saw any VB problems when I had the HS51, my 32" Olevia LT32HV has quite a bit of what I am sure is horizontal banding related to the power in my house. It's less noticeable via DVI and VGA versus Coax but I'm pretty sure it's eletrical. I would start there and make sure your HS51 is grounded properly. Try different outlets around your house where you have a white wall and can compare the scene with VB. Also check your source. Get a different DVD player or use a laptop via VGA to see if it is different.

Ferret, although the defocused screen looks really really defocused, it actually isn't. Up close it looks that way, but at viewing distance you really don't notice a decrease in sharpness. I also think the reason it doesn't help as much as the IMX during moving scenes is because it doesn't change the grid structure of SDE, just softens it. The IMX seems to work mainly by breaking up the grid (or at least appearing to) so it's still there, just not as noticeable.

Camera was a canon SD10 on a tripod with autofocus, no flash. I probably won't get around to taking more pics, but if I do I'll see what I can get you. FYI, the pics pretty accurately reflect how the IMX lens works if you look at a still frame up close. Nothing can reproduce how it performs on a moving image at seating distance, tho, which is what it's really for.

Dusk,
Some of the other guys felt that the issue was too drastic to be VB
I have changed sources to a Panasonic PV-D4743S which is a DVD/VHS combo unit and the vertical stripes went away. This DVD player is plugged into the same surge protector/Outlet that my XBOX and projector are plugged into. So I'll continue to try and narrow done the problem, (cables, scaler?) but it has only occured on the XBOX during movies not games.

I'm saving up for a Bravo D2, but until then.....

I'll continue this post over on the tweak thread.

I'll say once again, this projector looks awesome.
I was leary after having seen the HS20 in retail stores.
But after having the HS51 in my hands, I'd recommend it to anyone. If your on the fence, PULL THE TRIGGER!

I will post some screen shot later today (any requests), along with my current settings.

Question about ceiling mounts.
I ordered a ceiling mount from my retailer. He has the one for the HS-20, and says it is the same as for the HS51. Cost ... $192.00

Now he wants an additional $325.00 to install the mount. I've already had the new house prewired with an electric outlet in the ceiling, and a 2" pvc pipe was installed inside the ceiling to allow me to run the HDMI/component cables to the equipment.

How hard is it to put in one of these mounts? My ceiling is drywall, and the framing above the drywall is 24" trusses separating the basement ceiling from the first floor. Alternatively, he's willing to charge me $65.00 an hour to put in the mount, but he says I need to pay for 2 guys to be there (at $65 an hour each!). Is this something I could/should do myself, or should I be leery about mounting this device?
Thanks,
Friar

Don't pay for the install. It is easy to install as long as you hit a joist with at least 2 screws. Just do it yourself.

Originally posted by friar
Question about ceiling mounts.
I ordered a ceiling mount from my retailer. He has the one for the HS-20, and says it is the same as for the HS51. Cost ... $192.00

Now he wants an additional $325.00 to install the mount. I've already had the new house prewired with an electric outlet in the ceiling, and a 2" pvc pipe was installed inside the ceiling to allow me to run the HDMI/component cables to the equipment.

How hard is it to put in one of these mounts? My ceiling is drywall, and the framing above the drywall is 24" trusses separating the basement ceiling from the first floor. Friar

Its pretty easy, I'm not sure what mount you purchased, mine is the PSS 610--it was kind of expensive and not the best mount I have ever used, but its was fairly easy to install. If possible, make sure that a couple of the attachment screws go into a joist. Also, try to be fairly accurate about the center line of your screen aligning with the center line of the projector to avoid too much lens shift. A helper will really come in handy as well.

Originally posted by friar
Question about ceiling mounts.
I ordered a ceiling mount from my retailer. He has the one for the HS-20, and says it is the same as for the HS51. Cost ... $192.00

Now he wants an additional $325.00 to install the mount. I've already had the new house prewired with an electric outlet in the ceiling, and a 2" pvc pipe was installed inside the ceiling to allow me to run the HDMI/component cables to the equipment.

How hard is it to put in one of these mounts? My ceiling is drywall, and the framing above the drywall is 24" trusses separating the basement ceiling from the first floor. Alternatively, he's willing to charge me $65.00 an hour to put in the mount, but he says I need to pay for 2 guys to be there (at $65 an hour each!). Is this something I could/should do myself, or should I be leery about mounting this device?
Thanks,
Friar

Go buy a 10 dollar stud finder at Home Depot/Lowes and make sure you get as many screws as possible into the floor joist (as already mentioned). For the rest of the screws, I recommend buying the drywall anchors that you can also get at Lowes/Depot.

Originally posted by craige17
Here is a quick screenshot of my HS51 with and without the IMX lens:

Left: Focused, no IMX lens
Middle: Focused, with the IMX lens
Right: Defocused, no IMX lens

Look at the middle of the D for the best (IMO) comparison point. The interesting thing is that, even though defocusing looks in this still (and in person on a paused screen) to smooth out screendoor more, for a moving picture the IMX lens is quite a bit better than defocusing. At first I thought defocusing would get you about 80% of what an IMX lens does, but in action I think it only gets you about 30-50% of the IMX effect.

Defocusing and using the IMX lens does not seem to buy you anything at all.

Even with the IMX lens (and I'm still not sure I have it fully "tuned" right) SDE is a bit problematic for me on the HS51, but much less so than before.

(Photos were of the menu screen of Dark City, taken about 2 feet away from the screen on an angle.)


More importantly, the IMX lens seems to affect color more so than SDE (at least in your example). The middle shot (IMX lens) changes the hue of the original blue to something along the lines of teal (like the dolphins footballt team jersey). This does NOT represent an improvement in image quality in my mind.

Count me off the IMX waiting list for the moment.


S.Anderson

It's not the IMX or the camera...it's the menu screen itself on Dark City which moves and pulses and stuff. As far as I can see the IMX does not affect color at all.

Why are people so trigger happy on this forum, geez! They see something in one post from one person and take it out of context and are ready to dismiss the entire product.

Brian

Now he wants an additional $325.00 to install the mount.

As a construction consultant I can tell you he thinks you as a fool! Do not buy from this person.

Brian

That is why I would prefer somenoe run a pattern and not content. By running a pattern (I've created some additional ones), one can tell more than if someone observes material they are not familiar with.

S.Anderson (Rieper), if you are so easily dissuaded then I think you should probably not look at any screen captures for any video product consideration. Heck, even your web browser can affect change to the original image.

daveHe , please post some xbox pics. Thanks

I used three drywall anchors (molly bolts). Worked great. The only problem is one side had to be shimmed to level the unit.

Originally posted by TheFerret
That is why I would prefer somenoe run a pattern and not content. By running a pattern (I've created some additional ones), one can tell more than if someone observes material they are not familiar with.

S.Anderson (Rieper), if you are so easily dissuaded then I think you should probably not look at any screen captures for any video product consideration. Heck, even your web browser can affect change to the original image.

Relax Ferret, I said "for the moment". Obviously the issue of color (I brought up) has been clarified. I'm still on the fence though. IMX or not...hmm.

My web browser does NOT affect the color on my monitor. I calibrated my monitor for Photoshop and Adobe RGB printing. So I know about color correction issues. :)

S.Anderson

Just received my 25' Blue Jean DVI to HDMI cable. Hooked it up to the ATI Radeon 9600XT in my HTPC and immediately thought "Blech!". Brutal. I can see the cropping on the desktop as people have mentioned and the picture certainly has a "processed" look. Totally unwatchable as far as I am concerned. Thank god the VGA cable connection looks beautiful. Anyways, now that I have all the cables I can finish the ceiling instalation. I'm going the DIY route so I'll give a full report once its up.

To the person with the vertical streaks on their xbox, we are connecting ours via component and it also had the vertical streaking at first. After going into the MS dash and enabling the higher resolutions and widescreen modes of the xbox, the streaking went away and now it looks great on all the settings. I am running XBMC which uses mplayer as the DVD player. That may also be a factor.

S.Anderson, I never said that your browser was affecting the color of your monitor, but rather the color of the image file being viewed within the browser. :) And I'm not that one that dismissed the benefits of the IMX based on observation of an image viewed in a manner that may be something other than reality. Please relax in kind.

Well guys, I got to see the HS51/IMX combo today at David Giles' home. (Thanks for the hospitality Dave). Anyway, I definitely like the combo. It makes the image look much more filmlike. I am not complaining about SDE at all on my unit but I think the IMX is a definite upgrade. I think the IMX would be an upgrade for just about any digital, even many DLPs. I really did not have the time to make alot of different comparisons but in just my general viewing, I really liked the image better. I had to move withing 3-4 ft of the screen before I could make out any pixels. Dave really had this thing dialed in. He uses the exact same screen I do (Carada 110" BW-imagine that!) with a seating distance of about 12 ft the image is as smooth as any DLP or LCos I have ever seen. Anyway, the IMX is now on my list. I really have to decide if I would want to go for a scaler first or the IMX. I am probably leaning to the IMX. It improves the overall veiwing experience that much to my eyes.

Can the IMX mount directly onto the hs-51 or do you have to rig it up in front of the lens?

It mounts directly on the PJ.

Eric, how do you like the brightness with the hs51/BW combination?

Is there any sort of consensus about the best input into the projector, e.g., HDMI, VGA, etc., for someone who will not be using HTPC?

---------------------------------
Ron Party

Originally posted by ay221
Eric, how do you like the brightness with the hs51/BW combination?

I love it although I cannot compare it to many other screens. I have seen the HS51 on a Firehawk, Dalite and Draper (Do not know what models on the latter) and I prefer my screen setup to them all. It seems to have that bit of extra punch I like without over empahsizing any one area too much. No hot spotting and a great viewing cone. Not to mention the Criterion frame which is easily the equal of a Stewart Luxus. Call David Giles at Carada and get one.

I too ordered the Carada Brilliant White from David, 100 inch diagonal. Both it and my hs51 are on their way to me right now. I am thrilled to hear even more great comments on this sony/screen combo. Yippee! I have the new Sony975 dvd player here still in its box and the room is about to be painted, black for the ceiling and wall behind the screen, very dark grey/blue all other walls. It will be a very simple 10 by 20 room, but it's my first projector and I am a very happy guy to finally be setting up a theater for my family and I. Thanks to the forum for all of the great advice and thanks to David for all of his feedback on the projector and the screen!

craige17: Could you comment about if the IMX reduces brightness any or if its not noticable?

Originally posted by Havocsi
craige17: Could you comment about if the IMX reduces brightness any or if its not noticable?

Well I am not Craige17 but I can tell you that David's setup was plenty bright enough for me. It seemed a bit brighter than mine even though everything is practically the same. He is using the PJ at a much shorter throw distance whereas I am just about a foot from being at the max. I wonder if this would be contributing at all? Anyway they may be the same and I cannot really tell because I was only going off my memory.

Ha ha..it's here(HS50)...if only my dvd player was too :(

Anyway, connected my computer to it, using input A, and set my res to 1280*720...wow!!! It's absolutely crystal clear,and the colours are amazing.

I have a question for anyone using HTPC's (with particular regard to Nvidia driven graphics), how do I send a separate desktop or full screen image from say power dvd to the projector. I have two DVI out's, one with a DVI to vga adapter going into input A as mentioned.

[edit] OOO I forgot to mention, I can clone the desktop so I can see it on the pj too...but that's it?

Cheers in advance
:)

Well, the IMX, nor any other consumer lens, is 100% efficient. There is bound to be some loss, but I would not imagine it to be considerable to a point its noticeable (measurable yes, noticeable no) as our perception of light is non-linear.

I'm returning my HS51 to Sonystyle. I paid their price minus around 10% plus state tax and I know I can get a better price elsewhere. However at this point all I have is BO cloth screen ghetto taped on my bedroom wall. While I have been contacted now about the powerbuy I am probably going to hold off on purchasing for a while and get Mainlobby setup on my 32" LCD first. My theater room till I dig out my basement is now going to be a surprise nursery. So my Carada BW 2.35:1, Prismasonic H1000, HS51 combo is sadly a dream for a little while. However I think my LCD looks great so I'll live. Hopefully Sony will fix the stupid HDMI problems in the meantime.

Originally posted by dusk
Hopefully Sony will fix the stupid HDMI problems in the meantime.

Which HDMI are you referring to?

dyp

Wow, you publicly admit that you 'borrowed' a projector from Sony. LOL. This is like the Home Depot rental program that is free, I hear.

DYP: 720p blanking, no 1:1 pixel mapping.

Ferret: Half the reason for buying from Sony was because of the return policy. It was definitely more expensive than most places but with an effective ~5% off and availability I decided to jump. In the meantime things have changed in my life to the point where returning the projector is the best decision right now. Also given the state of my house I had nowhere I could project while having company over and each viewing I had to setup the projector all over again. It was more of a hassle because I couldn't set up my desired projector room as quick as I wanted( have three dressers in there right now). So I bought the 32" which is a nice fit for the Living room which is the only finished room in the house right now. In the next 12 months I will need to replace the plumbing and electrical, install a new HVAC system where there wasn't one before, put up quarter-inch drywall over three quarters of the plaster in the house, refinish the floors on the second half of the house which wasn't done the first time, and all in time for the birth of my first child by the beginning of September. Now the trick is going to be fitting in the repurchase of the HS51 over the next couple months. There's always the tax refund! ;)

BTW, I thought 1280x720P/RGB on Input-A produced 1:1 pixel mapping? Only the HDMI and YPbPr has an issue that I am aware of.

Yep, that's what I was referring to in my first post, 720p over HDMI. Just didn't specify in my recent post.

Originally posted by TheFerret
BTW, I thought 1280x720P/RGB on Input-A produced 1:1 pixel mapping? Only the HDMI and YPbPr has an issue that I am aware of.

You are correct. This is why I had to return my OPPO DV917H and get a Momitsu V880DX instead. The DVI-out on the Momitsu is RGB compatible, so I can connect to my HS51 via DVI-to-RGB cable for 720p 1:1 pixel mapping. Thinking of getting a VGA switchbox because I will add my STB to the HS51 using Component-to-VGA cable as well.

S.Anderson

Havocsi, there is no noticeable decrease in brightness to my eye with the IMX. And I watched Dark City with the HS51/IMX so I'd think if any movie was going to look extra dim, that would be it ;-)

Might I suggest a scene from Van Helsing? The opening chapter where is is tracking Jekyll/Hyde and they get caught up in an attic is a pretty dark scene. Then again, the beaching scene from Castaway is one in which a minute about of light drop could spell a discernible difference.

Originally posted by Ron Party
Is there any sort of consensus about the best input into the projector, e.g., HDMI, VGA, etc., for someone who will not be using HTPC?

Here are my opinions based on personal experience and what I have read here.

First - clearest sharpest picture comes from VGA RGB at 720p@60Hz connected to Input A. I am using a HTPC, but others have reported success with a Iscan HD scaler and Momitsu DVD player. You will have to tweak the Signal Adjust settings for optimal quality. See the tweak thread for details.

Second - 1080i to the HDMI input. I haven't tried it but some others have reported minimal overscan and good picture quality. Someone also reported good success sending 480i or 480p over HDMI from the new Sony upscaling DVD player, but overscan is higher. Note that not many devices output 480i over HDMI.

Third - 1080i to Component. Haven't tried it but I think WSR reported miminal overscan and good quality.

Fouth - 480i or 480p to the Component input. This has excessive overscan (about 5%) but otherwise the PJ does a pretty good job with deinterlacing and scaling. Better than I expected.

Due to the black bar problem, you probably want to avoid 720p to any input except VGA RGB to Input A.

So what's with the overscan? Is there a technical need for overscan on some inputs? I take it that HDMI, being digital `should` be 1:1 but isn't hence the 720p problem, but what about the overscan on the other inputs, why's the overscan there any more acceptable?

HDMI 720p is a 1:1 pixel image, but with underscan masking applied to the edges.
Well it may be 1:1 but it is not coming in unscaled! The difference between vga pixel perfect text at 720p and the hdmi at 720p is substantial. You can run patterns that are 1 pixel wide and see this.

Brian

Originally posted by awtryau89
Well I am not Craige17 but I can tell you that David's setup was plenty bright enough for me. It seemed a bit brighter than mine even though everything is practically the same. He is using the PJ at a much shorter throw distance whereas I am just about a foot from being at the max. I wonder if this would be contributing at all? Anyway they may be the same and I cannot really tell because I was only going off my memory.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Would having minimum or maximum zoom to a screen the same the size have any affects on screen brightness?

Originally posted by Bytehoven
One thing, wider zoom causes the light to hit the screen at wider angles of reflection, so less light is reflected back at the viewer. There is also some additional loss of light in the lens, just like telephoto lenses have inherently higher f-stop ranges.
While this is probably true in general, it can also get a little bit more complicated than this. For one thing, the screen can make a difference. With a High Power screen bringing the projector back closer to the viewers position can increase the gain and help the brightness uniformity. There also can be lens losses like you mentioned, but I know the ratings for the 720p 3 chip DLP lenses are different for minimum zoom and maximum zoom, but there is no consistency. That is, some lenses have maximum light throughput with minimum zoom and some with maximum. In those cases I believe a fixed lens iris may be contributing to those differences though.

--Darin

I'm bummed. I had given up on the first place I ordered from when I learned Hi-Fi Lies was sitting on +80 units. They promised me two-day delivery from their warehouse to their local store so I ordered. Well, its +7 days and not here yet.

I can be a patient customer, but when a reseller sets your expectations on 'two days' and cannot get it in 8 days its more like liars at HFB then anything else. Oh well, my friend that ordered a month before from the dealer I have my original order just shipped his unit, tracking number in hand.

I sit and wait. Maybe I just wait until Q3 for the next rumors.

All this talk about 1:1 pixal mapping being off is not very clear to me. I am sending a 720p dvi-d signal from a dvdo iscan ultra to the hdmi port and the picture looks great. If the 1:1 pixel mapping is only off a little on the very outside edges of the image then adjust the image size so that part is on the blackout border. Distraction taken care of. Now someone mentioned text being clearer through the vga input. OK, do images appear clearer as well? I couldn't see a difference, if anything vga rgb looked a little darker (same callibration on projector for both).

Sheesh. Sorry Ferret. I had to wait 9 days for my shipment to arrive from my vendor once they told me it shipped. It was sent regular ground though. Hopefully, you'll get your projector real soon and with no problems.

One thing I have not gotten a handle on is that the picture is significantly darker through the dvi as compared with vga. I had to push brightness up to the 80 range versus 60 range before. Can anybody explain why this would be?

What amount of scaling have you seen when switching between the signal inputs?

Scaling may not be the correct term, "processed" seems more like it.

Brian

Isn't the output based on the input line level voltage, Brian? Isn't that one of the reasnos why Mike Parker boosted the line level signal on those ATI video cards?

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
Ha ha..it's here(HS50)...if only my dvd player was too :(

Anyway, connected my computer to it, using input A, and set my res to 1280*720...wow!!! It's absolutely crystal clear,and the colours are amazing.

I have a question for anyone using HTPC's (with particular regard to Nvidia driven graphics), how do I send a separate desktop or full screen image from say power dvd to the projector. I have two DVI out's, one with a DVI to vga adapter going into input A as mentioned.

[edit] OOO I forgot to mention, I can clone the desktop so I can see it on the pj too...but that's it?

Cheers in advance
:)

LimLizzards.... that sounds great!

I'm using an ATI card on my HTPC and can do this by opening the windows display properties (right click on desktop, select properties), selecting the then move to the settings tab, then two boxes are shown. If I select on the second one, there is a checkbox that says "Extend my Windows desktop onto this monitor" that I check and this does the trick.

I don't know how it's done with NVidia, but if the checkbox doesn't exist for you, I would recommend downloading NVidia's latest drivers and also any control program they have...there's probably something there to do it.

You might also post this on the HTPC forum...

Ferret,

HFB got my replacement projector in today, this was from the Chicago warehouse and was ordered last Thursday when I took my "defective" unit in for replacement. I took my laptop into the store to check the new one out and, when I turned the system on it looked like the green was off 1 pixel. After reading all the info in the tweak thread about the Sony rep at CES saying that was in spec and the others here having a similar issue, I thought this was acceptable.

We hooked the system up to their HD input over Component and it looked fantastic, right out of the box. Much better than the first projector

When I got the unit home and placed in it's permanent home, did the basic focus and poped up the menu, there was no shift in the green that I could see. Poped in the Avia disk and played with the contrast, brightness, color and hue a little. Then I sat back and watched Titan A.E. What a beautiful picture.

You should get yours soon. Call your sales rep and ask them where the UPS truck with your unit is. You ordered it before I ordered my replacement and they came from the same place.

I look forward to reading about your results soon.

Vance

One thing, wider zoom causes the light to hit the screen at wider angles of reflection, so less light is reflected back at the viewer.I believe you're right about that.
There is also some additional loss of light in the lens, just like telephoto lenses have inherently higher f-stop ranges.You've got the right idea, but you're drawing the wrong conclusion. The projector has a similar loss of light at the telephoto end of its zoom range (smallest image), not at the wide-angle end (largest image).

Vance, I am truly jealous. I ordered mine the day before and yet you got your replacement unit yesterday and mine is in 'transit'. I'll have to remember to mention this to my local store's operations manager. It cannot be the warehouse's fault is a Roswell store orders a day later and get delivery 1-2 earlier than I get mine delivered. Same city, same warehouse, same delivery mechanism. Only problem, it takes my order +3 days longer. Absolute BS.

Originally posted by dusk
...
While I have been contacted now about the powerbuy ...
...

What powerbuy?

The first rule in Powerbuy Club is to not talk about Powerbuy. :)

Cheers CobraMan1, yep works for NVidia too. I got mine set up temporarily in me office, looks really sweet though input A, get my DVD player today with HDMI, so am looking forward to setting things up properly.

Cheers again.
:)

The Ferret,
O.K., then can you at least tell us about the club?

No, as I said, you cannot talk about club.

Probably a dumb question (as you might wonder why anyone would want to do this), but can anyone post a picture of this projector working within an environment with a fair amount of ambient light?

Thanks in advance

Some first impressions on my hs51:

The hs51 in auto iris/lamp low (cinema mode) is not as bright as my hs10 in low lamp mode. I forgot to measure the lux at the screen to compare so will do that tonite.

The hs51 is not silent but is very quiet--if there is no sound in the house at all I can here it somewhat. With any sound at all it disappears. Obviously a huge improvement over my hs10.

I crudely measured contrast (hand held the light meter) and got 3260:1 with hs51 out of the box (though brightness and contrast were avia calibrated). Black level is very good though not crt level of course. Black looks black to me instead of a dark gray on the hs10.

Notice no vb and so far fpn is not noticable--didn't see vb on my hs10 but there was some fpn.

Lens shift is nice and seems to have quite a range and the zoom is pretty close to the hs10 so I could mount it the same place. I miss the powered focus as on the hs10. The lens shift will allow me to mount the pj lower and get more gain out of my high power screen. This should make up for the brightness differential between the hs10 and 51.

Noticed that the air filter in the hs51 is the same as that in the hs10/20. Any hs10/20 owners needing an air filter just order one the one for the hs51 and you're good.

Also the mounting holes are the same as the hs10 but reversed--the single hole is towards the back on the hs51 and is towards the front on the hs10

Right now running component only to the hs51--my dvi/hdmi cable is already installed in my still unfinished new house. Will probably not calibrate the pj fully until my house is finished and the hs10 gets back from being repaired (blue polarizer) so I can rent colorfacts and calibrate them both.

Originally posted by Gary Damico
All this talk about 1:1 pixal mapping being off is not very clear to me. I am sending a 720p dvi-d signal from a dvdo iscan ultra to the hdmi port and the picture looks great. If the 1:1 pixel mapping is only off a little on the very outside edges of the image then adjust the image size so that part is on the blackout border. Distraction taken care of. Now someone mentioned text being clearer through the vga input. OK, do images appear clearer as well? I couldn't see a difference, if anything vga rgb looked a little darker (same callibration on projector for both).
With an HTPC, you can see a big difference switching between Input A and HDMI. Way back in this thread I posted some pictures showing the difference. I used a 1x1 pixel black and white checkerboard pattern. On input A, you can clearly see the checkerboard. On HDMI, it becomes a uniform gray background. In addition to masking the edge pixels with a black border, it appears that HDMI doing some kind of averaging or smoothing. The effect is not subtle, text that was thin and sharp looks fatter and softer. You might never notice this watching video, but it would indicate that some sharpness and detail is being lost. Oddly with a PC HDMI looks a little darker than Input A. HDMI supports a few different video formats, so it may react differently to input from set top boxes.

jschefdog, I had meant to respond to that post but you took the words right out of my mouth. You described it perfectly and just as I see it.

Brian

Originally posted by jschefdog
Here are my opinions based on personal experience and what I have read here.

First - clearest sharpest picture comes from VGA RGB at 720p@60Hz connected to Input A.

Second - 1080i to the HDMI input.
After posting this yesterday I received my new Sony DVP-NS975V upscaling DVD player with HDMI output. After trying out the Video Essentials montage and several scenes I am familiar with, I would have to change this opinion and call it a tie, or maybe even change the order.

I was very impressed with the image quality of 1080i over HDMI. Much has been made about the SD vs HD colorspace issue with this DVD player (as reported by WSR), but honestly I don't see it. I checked out the color bars on Avia, and I don't see any error in the colors. Maybe a trained eye could spot something, but to me it looked the same as any other source. In fact the colors watching video are the best I have seen.

Good news for non-tweaker types is that color setting is dead on with the PJ defaults of 50 for Hue and Saturation, no tweaking required. I checked using the Avia color bars with the red, green, and blue filters and saturation and hue were all dead on for all 3 colors. No red push. With my HTPC on Input A, red is oversaturated, green is undersaturated and red hue is slightly off. I have tried to compensate with RCP, but this may introduce other color problems.

The only adjustments I made were to bump up Brightness from 50 to 59, which oddly is much higher than other inputs where it is in the 30s. I also backed off contrast to 60 because 80 is to bright on my small screen. And I turned the sharpness all the way down.

The end result was an outstanding picture. Clear, sharp, detailed and great color. Using 1080i eliminates the black border problem and has about 2-3% overscan, which I find acceptable. I did see a few scaling artifacts on the VE montage, but did not notice them in the movie scenes I tried. In fact, this player seems to handle slow pans and the video source scenes better than my HTPC.

I also tried 480i and 480p, but I thought 1080i produced the best picture and has the advantage of less overscan.

So for anyone who doesn't want to mess with a HTPC, this DVD player (or other scaling HDMI players) may be a good option. See the DVD player forum for other options.

Curious, does usnig a software DVD player on a PC that is full-screen for a desktop of 1280x720 and usnig DVI output also 'scale' based on the desktop's resolution?

I am curious as to what would happen if I were to output, say, at 1080i for DVD. Hmm ...

I finally received my HS51 and set it up in my new home theater. Attached is a pic.

At first it would not turn on. I had to loosen the screws on the cover for it to work, FYI, in case anyone else has a similar problem.

Hey Jim, congrats! Are you originally from RI?

Originally posted by jschefdog

I also tried 480i and 480p, but I thought 1080i produced the best picture and has the advantage of less overscan.

Did you notice any CUE problems? I just might get this player when my projector comes in.

Yes, it does have CUE issues...

Hi guys,

Got a quick question about 'Wide' mode - for stretching 4:3 sources to fill the 16:9 display.

The Wide button never does anything for me - it always says 'Not applicable'! I am connecting my HS50 to my HTPC over VGA. Desktop is set to 1280x720 - I've tried using Wide when:
1. Watching a 4:3 DVD in Theatretek - I thought maybe it doesn't work here because the resolution sent from the PC is still 1280x720, it's just not using all the picture
2. Playing a game in 1024x768 - I can't understand why Wide doesn't work here, as the PC's resolution is definitely set to 4:3.

Is Wide simply not supported when using the VGA input? Or am I missing something?


Thanks in advance


Tom

A followp question to Tom's:

Does anyone know if you can "zoom" when sending the proj a 480p 4:3 signal?
Or is that only available on 480i sources?

reaper

Yes works fine, but never use it because you loose so much at the top & bottom. I use composite btw.

Tom and Reaper,
Anytime you send the projector a signal other than 480i or 480P you cannot use the zoom button.

ANyone remember what the 'default' vertical lens shift position is along the dial's range? Yesterday when setting a panel alignment test the salesperson went and adjusted the vertical lens shift before I could stop him. I wanted the projector in its default lens shift position to know how it naturally projects above.below the centerline axis. Any help would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Kevin152
Anytime you send the projector a signal other than 480i or 480P you cannot use the zoom button.
No entirely true, 576i and p can be zoomed as well ;)

Thanks for the information. I was asking because some video games provide widescreen by letterboxing within a 4:3 frame. So, you actually want to zoom and you hope it will chop off the top and bottom. Those are just black bars anyway.

reaper

I went to Ovation Audio and Video here in Indianapolis yesterday during my lunch break. They have an HS51 on display in a closed off room of their store. i wanted to see the unit:

a) To check out the screen door issue everyone is talking about.
b) To get an idea of brightness.
c) Because I hadn't seen it since cedia and I missed it :)

So, when I walked in, they were showing Shrek 2. There are plenty of bright scenes in the movie. I did not see screen door. I had to walk up pretty close to the screen, maybe within a few feet to see screen door. So, that one is a non-issue for me.

Watching Shrek was making me drool over the projector once again. The colors were so vivid, even with some can lights on in the room, the image was very watchable. But when he turned them off, it was much better.

I started to think that the contrast wasn't quite right though. So, I asked him to open the menu. Man, they had that thing set up all wrong. It was on dynamic mode. The iris was OFF. The lamp was high. The contrast was still at the default of 80. I had him bring that down to 65 and turn the Iris on Auto and the lamp on low. The contrast was much better. It amazes me that the salesman seemed to know nothing about the one single attribute of this product that makes it stand out.

The picture still looked fine to me though. But then I realized I was watching an animated film. So, I asked him to put something else in. He popped in Star Wars, the pod race scene. I was still happy with the image. Although, at this point, the machine started to look more like a normal projector.

Up until this point I had only seen 2 pieces of source material, Shrek 2 and that "Are We There Yet" trailer they were showing at CEDIA. Both exhibited very bright colors. Even though they were real actors in the CEDIA demo, they were wearing neon pink and orange shirts. It made the image reall pop.

So, here was a scene with no bright strong colors, in fact a lot of muted browns from the desert. It still looked great and I was enjoying the image, but it didn't look over the top great like it did with those other clips.

The brightness still seemed acceptable to me, but it defintely washed out more with the lights on now that I had made the adjustments. It was not very acceptable in ambiant lighting.

Then I had him put in The Matrix, remembering that there were a lot of dark scenes in the movie. We watched a lot of the beginning scenes... Trinity inthe dark room with flashlights held by the cops, Neo in his dark bedroom surfing the web, etc. I did get the feeling that the image was a bit dim. It was the exact same feeling I had when watching some dim scenes on the AE700 at CEDIA when they were showing "inside the cave" scenes in Vertical limit.

But, I started to think, that's how those scenes are supposed to look. It's a dark environment, the image is supposed to be dim. The blacks still looked good and I could see lots of shadow detail still. I was surprised to see tiny little fuzzy hairs on Trinity's face when she was at the computer. I don't think I even noticed that before.

So, I had him advance back to a bright scene again. It looked decent to me. The brightness was defintely up again. So, I had to leave, but I asked for one last test. I want to be able to watch some material in an environment with some ambiant light. So, I had him turn the mode back to dynamic, turn the bulb back to high and turn the Iris back to off. We continued to watch the Matrix. The brightness definitely picked up and I had him turn on some lights in the room. It was still watchable. I should have had him switch back to a dark scene in the movie but forgot to ask.

Anyways, my overall assessment of the brightness issue was that the proj was able to be used with the Iris off for ambian lighting conditions and the iris on for light controlled conditions. I think the Iris was making the biggest impact on it all.

In the end, though I still like the projector, it no longer seemed to be light years beyond the AE700 I had seen at CEDIA. Now that I had seen similar material on both (real actors in normal clothing), the images were not hugely different. I fonud myself wondering if I should re-consider the AE700 due to the cost difference.

Unfortunately, I don't think I want to live with VB and I understand that the 700 has it. So, what I really want is th quality of the HS51 at the price of the AE700. That's not possible right now. However, it may be in November of this year if the AE800 starts hitting the streets about that time. I think the earliest I could buy the HS51 would probably be July since I still need to save up more money and the theater room remodel is crawling at a snail's pace :(. So, I was thinking, I could buy the HS51 in July or wait about 4 months till november and possibly buy a machine that is similar in quality from Panasonic for $600-$800 less. Of course this assumes that the D5 chip resolves the VB issue and the on chip contrast of D5 makes up for the difference in iris implementations and achieves similar contrast at the screen.

So, I don't know what to do other than keep thinking about it. But I thought you guys might be interested in some of my thoughts.

later, reap

Thanks for the help guys - I guess I'll never get to use it then :)

Thanks almighty one for the announcement...

You made me laugh so you're not all bad...

Erm, so let me get this straight, it's crap?

By the way, people come on these forums because they don't know about certain things, and want to ask for help and to discuss things.

Compared to half the people here it would appear that you know even less than them, certainly about making any kind of constructive argument anyway.

Personally I can't wait for another `crap` crapping post from you.

Ho hum. I guess every forums got em.

Yes, people skills are lacking... ;)Brian

I'm lacking in a lot of areas (wealth, for one).

Originally posted by ay221
Did you notice any CUE problems? I just might get this player when my projector comes in.
I don't know how to look for CUE, but from the review in Widescreen Review:
I also looked for evidence of the chroma upsampling error (CUE) problem. But there was negligible CUE on the brilliant red images in Chapter 4 of Toy Story.

I'm just happy that I am somehow perceived to have a clue!
Sorry about your luck to the rest of you guys! Hahaha!

reap

Originally posted by JJay
Thanks almighty one for the announcement...

You made me laugh so you're not all bad...

Made me laugh as well. But I'm glad that now there is finally a "real" authority on this PJ :rolleyes: Deep inside I always knew that my eyes were not the best tool to measuer PQ. Now I have SOWK's eyes instead !!!

Can anyone recommend a good "universal" remote that works well with the HS51?

Originally posted by mintakaX
Made me laugh as well. But I'm glad that now there is finally a "real" authority on this PJ :rolleyes: Deep inside I always knew that my eyes were not the best tool to measuer PQ. Now I have SOWK's eyes instead !!!


Let me ask... how do you have yours setup?

Please provid Input, signal, setting in the sony? Cinema, low, contrast brightness?

Hello all,
I am about to purchase an HS51 and I have been reading the manual. I have a space in my basement that I am about to frame out that is/can be 11'Wx14'L. I have a buffer in back because of a sump pump that can allow my projector to go back as far as 15.3 feet comfortably but I am planning at around 14'. (Because I am making a back little closet to hold all the gear and projector. I have a 7 foot ceiling and one window that is 32"x17" which will be completely covered by drapes so light shall not be a problem at all. My question is this. I want the biggest screen I can get while keeping peak image quality and the manual tells me I can have a 123" diagnal screen. But when I go to 6th Ave electronics here, they are telling me I shouldn't go above 92" and maybe can squeeze out 100".


And what is gain all about. Depending on how dark my room can be should the gain go up or down.

I was looking at the Firehawk 123 (SN123H). Just wondering anyone's thoughts?


Brian

Rieper,

Probably any of the Phillips TSU model remotes would work for this. I recently became an owner of the TSU6000 for $200 off ebay.

reaper

Hi, I was also wondering if I get a 123" diagnal screen I won' t have much room to sit because I have to sit back so far. 1.5x sceen with will put me at 13.37 feet and I will be up against the wall at that point so maybe a 100" diagnal will be better putting me at 10.87 feet and I can just ceiling mound the projector.

Brian

Originally posted by zooxmusic
Hi, I was also wondering if I get a 123" diagnal screen I won' t have much room to sit because I have to sit back so far. 1.5x sceen with will put me at 13.37 feet and I will be up against the wall at that point so maybe a 100" diagnal will be better putting me at 10.87 feet and I can just ceiling mound the projector.

Brian

I personally would go no closer than 1.5x screen width with this projector. That is the distance the screendoor effect disappears completly for me. (I see little screen door at 1.3x width, but it does apear every now and then).

My room is 15' x 20' and I went with a 92" Carada Brilliant White screen. I do have two rows of seating though, so my first row is about 11' to 12' (its a curved row) to the screen.

A smaller screen does make for a brighter/punchier image since the light is more concentrated into a smaller area.

John

Originally posted by SOWK
This post is to set the bar!!!!

OMG!!! You people are starting to scare me. Almost everyone on these fourms knows nothing about what they are talking about!

...

End.

Bummer. Here I am, reading 132 pages of postings and then, in posting 2633 I have to find out that the unit is crap and everybody in this forum is crap, too ... well, with the few exceptions his almighty has spared out, of course, and I'm not worthy following this thread ... :rolleyes:

Btw: I assume somebody mentioned that before (yes, I admit I didn't read exactly all of those 2633 postings ...) but just to make sure: cine4home.de is currently testing the HS50/51. Two reports have been published already, a third one with the picture test will follow soon, they said.

Check out the Sony Navitus. It's awesome!

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/navitus/index.html

I want one :)

Hehe it looked really nice, and I am in the lookout for a new remote for my gear..hmm we'll see :P

Started several times to write something about the "crappiness of the HS50 in all situations except VGA" but stopped myself. I think easypeacy42 summarized the irony that I wanted to get through :P

Originally posted by zooxmusic
I want the biggest screen I can get while keeping peak image quality and the manual tells me I can have a 123" diagnal screen. But when I go to 6th Ave electronics here, they are telling me I shouldn't go above 92" and maybe can squeeze out 100".

And what is gain all about. Depending on how dark my room can be should the gain go up or down.

Brian

Well, no one can give you a definitive answer to the question of maximum size as the answer is very subjective. What it boils down to is ft-Lamberts. How many ft-Lamberts do you need to be happy?

A ft-Lambert is the amount of brightness per area of the screen. Any given projector will produce a certain total amount of brightness (which is rarely equal to the spec'd brightness). You must divide this brightness by the square footage of the screen.

So, say the projector is producing 500 Lumens and you have a 92" diagonal. That means you would be getting:

500Lumens/25sqft = 20ftL

But at 123 inches, the size of your screen goes from 25sqft to 45.6sqft according to my calculations. So, your brightness drops from 20ftL to

500Lumens/45.6sqft =~ 11ftL

I think the jury is still out on the real brightness of this piece, but 500 is probably in the ballpark. 123 sounds a bit big to me. I think most people say they want around 18ftL at a min.

If you go with a high gain screen, like a 2.0, you might be able to get away with it. But again, the question is, how many ftL do you need/want? No one can answer that for you. I would submit that you will probably be unhappy with 11 ftL, probably anyone would based on what I've gathered from this forum. So, I'd take a swag and say that the only way you'd be happy with a screen that big is if it was a high gain screen, like 2.0 or more.

Hope the idea helps some, of course these numbers are rough approximates. You can re-do your own calcs. The main point was to show you how much brightness would decrease going from a 92" to a 123" diagonal.


reaper

What is CUE?

Chroma Upsampling Error, also known as the dreaded "chroma bug." See this site (http://206.225.87.49/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html) to learn all about it.

Well guys I have finally got my HS50 setup and have a couple of comments that you might be interested in. Using a temporary screen, so this is not a picture quality contest just a comparison of modes, I have found that Sony's de-interlacing is, as I had read elsewhere, very `edgey`, and has a very processed feel to it. It's like taking an image into photoshop and whacking up the contrast to the point where it just starts to posterise the image. It's look contrasty alright...but not natural. I have a Panasoni S97 hooked up to it and have fed the HS50 720,and 1080i over the HDMI. The overscan on the 720p is shocking, how culd they have missed that before releasing the unit? But 1080i give me no discernable gain or loss in picture quality (on my temporary screen at least), and no apparent overscan, so 1080i it is for me. I agree with others here too that the Input A is brighter. This might sound a little nasty but can I connect my dvd player via a HDMI to DVI then DVI to VGA adapter, or is there such a thing as a HDMI to VGA adapter outthere, and could I use it?

I have a slight issue with ambient light still, which is being reflected backonto the screen surface so black wasn't great, but colours we're vivid and detail (Ice age,The mummy,Pod Race from Episode1) was stunning. I never thought it'd be quite this good on a 100" screen!

I'm sat approximately 17 feet, from the 100" image, and no screen door is visible. In fact you have to get pretty damn close to see any.

I did see however shimmering horizontal lines in one shot In the Mummy, in the room full of gold, the first time they find it, and I guess, it has something t do with the source image and the de-interlacing, but that was the only shot I saw it in.

Now, I was messing with the settings and found black mode. It was off, but appeared to make a nice difference in the picture, can anyone tell me what it actualy does? Is it processing the picture again, closing the iris slightly???

When I get my proper screen I might do some more comparisons with the processing since the sony is scaling the 1080i image back down to 720p, and it's not doing a bad job of that, so why scaling up is quite so different I don't know?

Anyway. It's a great projector, and I look forward to trying out some of your `tinkering` tips.

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
Well guys I have finally got my HS50 setup and have a couple of comments that you might be interested in. Using a temporary screen, so this is not a picture quality contest just a comparison of modes, I have found that Sony's de-interlacing is, as I had read elsewhere, very `edgey`, and has a very processed feel to it. It's like taking an image into photoshop and whacking up the contrast to the point where it just starts to posterise the image. It's look contrasty alright...but not natural. I have a Panasoni S97 hooked up to it and have fed the HS50 720,and 1080i over the HDMI. The overscan on the 720p is shocking, how culd they have missed that before releasing the unit? But 1080i give me no discernable gain or loss in picture quality (on my temporary screen at least), and no apparent overscan, so 1080i it is for me. I agree with others here too that the Input A is brighter. This might sound a little nasty but can I connect my dvd player via a HDMI to DVI then DVI to VGA adapter, or is there such a thing as a HDMI to VGA adapter outthere, and could I use it?

I

Well yes there is, I also want to thank you for not being blind like most of the fourm members here. You took everyword out of my mouth in a nice way! I had a post earlier that was deleted, because of the way I put it. but I wanted to be blunt, we on the avs fourm need to get up and say hay Sony Get your flipin A--es in gear and fix your "stuff". I have contacted them over 5 times, and everytime I just get a responce back, we have no future plans to add fireware updates, or plans to chg the funtions of the HS 50/51.

But sorry for the rant..


Digital Conections, has a DVI to VGA converter ~ $300. - mine is on the way.

I have the Bravo D2 dvd player, with DVI I will be outputing 720P DVI to the adaptor, then into the Sony VGA, in computer mode at 720P

Im also mad because I bought a Very nice HDMI 13' cord from Monster Cable, and a DVI to HDMI converter. Now I can't use eather, and there is no way to return!

So the Sony Cost me $3000.00
and to get just a DVD movie on it in a way I wouldn't trow a fit, it cost another.

$700.00

Bravo D2 = $250
DVI to Vga = $300
Hdmi cord = $120
D to Hdmi = $300

So again Dont Buy the Sony people unless your will to dish out some more money!!!


P.S. Dont buy it yet, let me make the finial decision, and I'll let you know. Trust me If I aprove, then it will be perfect for anynoe. But remeber the other fourm members think Im crazy anyhow (because I care how my $3000.00 investment looks, I wont defend the unit just because I spent the money. If its not perfect I will write about it. Maybe not in the nicest ways. sorry guys.)

SOWK

I want to say Im sorry to the other memebers if I insulted you. I just want you guy to get mad at Sony as well, and tell them to fix this problem.
I have Contacted them over 5 times (Phone, email, online chat, you name it.)

It I were to rewrite what I said, it would be what LimeLizzards just wrote above.

Please refer people to this post if they are looking at buying the projector.








Sony HS51 - Best mode - Input A / Computer Mode / 1280X720 60 hz / 720P






If the unit is in any other mode, or input, the sony video proccessing kicks in. So please make sure you have the proper equipment that would allow you to hook up to the VGA port. If not, just be informed that you will get a non-proccessed image from the above setting.





Also, issues with the unit




All Inputs, except Input A in Computer mode are proccessed.
All Inputs, except Input A in Computer mode have the 720P cropping issue.

SOWK, why do you have to add post after post after post, none of which adds any new information. Your verbal diorehea really is quite irritating, and just lengthens an already massive thread further.

If you have nothing new to add, please, don't post

I have connected the HS51 via INPUT_A and set my iScanHD+ to 720p and still get the 720p blanking problem.

What is INPUT_A Computer Mode ??

Thanks,
Gary

Originally posted by Cinema Fan 12
SOWK, why do you have to add post after post after post, none of which adds any new information. Your verbal diorehea really is quite irritating, and just lengthens an already massive thread further.

If you have nothing new to add, please, don't post

I certainly agree here. I believe usabrian hit the nail on the head. SOWK acts too much like an authority on these boards for someone that only has 23 posts. And yes, it is an open forum and a free country but you have to earn your stripes here just like everyone else. That being said, too many of his/her statements just sound like a another member we all know and love. I for one will quit reading anything he/she posts and just hope he/she quits posting. I wonder what other threads he/she is active in. This may lead to some answers.

OK, you guys that just recently posted are -------, Im trying to help you get more performace out of your investment. But oh no he olny has 24 post, we can't listen to him. hahaha. I hope none of you guy call yourselfs videophiles as you would get fired immediatly if you worked for any professional video place. You want prof that Im not just blowing smoke, look at my gallery, and compair to your setups. I just happen to be a perfectionest. And I want the best for my Money, if you guys don't. fine.

Regarding the panel aligment, I'm just curious if any of the folks that have been around the various LCD PJ's for a while could comment on whether this issue affects pretty much all LCD PJ's. Do the other manufacturers have perfectly aligned PJ's or is this the luck of the draw accross the board? I'm perfectly happy (actually ecstatic) with my HS50' spicture even with the one pixel off on my green panel but I'd still like to get a handle on how this affects the various brands.

P.S. That "Ignore List" works like a charm. Never used it until today.....:)

I wonder about this, too, Ronin. I've only scene 3-4 LCD projectors in my life and only two of them were less than 3 years old. Unfortunately, those two newest both had alignment issues.

IIRC, the HS20 also early on in its production had a panel alignment issue. I am sure some of the early purchasers of the HS20 could comment. Hey, did you see my pics of the misalignment I posted in Byte's thread? The letter 'A' was interesting.

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
This might sound a little nasty but can I connect my dvd player via a HDMI to DVI then DVI to VGA adapter, or is there such a thing as a HDMI to VGA adapter outthere, and could I use it?I don't think this would work. The passive DVI to VGA adapters are only for devices that are sending analog RGB over a DVI-I or DVI-A connection. They do not convert DVI-D (digital) to VGA, this would require a digital to analog conversion. For example, the DVI-I connections on most video cards output both digital and analog, so you can use one of these to hookup a VGA monitor with the adapter. If you click the RAM electronics link at the top of the forum, they have a pretty good tutorial on all the flavors of DVI.

Originally posted by SOWK
All Inputs, except Input A in Computer mode are proccessed.
Seems to be true, but 480i, 480p, and 1080i on any input must be processed to convert them to 1280x720. Composite, Svideo, and Component inputs all must be processed on any High Defintion display to fill the screen. None of us are happy about the 720P black bar issue which is pretty unusual, but processing the other inputs and resolutions is normal and the resulting picture quality is pretty good.
]Originally posted by SOWK
All Inputs, except Input A in Computer mode have the 720P cropping issue.
Not exactly true. 480i, 480p, and 1080i from HDMI, Component and S-Video have overscan. This is not the same as the 720P issue since the image does not have added black bars or lose pixels. The image with these inputs and resolutions fills all 1280x720 pixels, but the edges are cropped due to the overscan. Overscan is not uncommon in video displays. The 5% overscan for 480i and 480p is excessive, but on 1080i it is about 2-3% which is pretty typical. As pointed out in the WSR review before this PJ hit the market, it would be great if the overscan was adjustable, but it's not.

If you want people here to take you seriously, you can't start off by cross posting across every thread on the HS-51 (cross posting is against the rules by the way) that we are all blind and everything except 720p on input A is crap. We aren't blind and we know it's not true. Most of us have read the Widescreen Review article on this PJ. They are well respected and gave the PJ a good review even though they did not use a HTPC for most of their testing. While it may be true that the absolute best image will be achieved using 720p to Input A, that doesn't mean everything else is crap.

So far you haven't posted any information that hasn't been posted many times before. WSR reported the black border issue on 720P before the HS-51 started shipping. I may have been the first one here to report that Input A is the only way to get 1 to 1 pixel mapping from a HTPC (see this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4723551#post4723551) from November). It has since been confirmed by several people that the 720P problem exists on both HDMI and Component, and discussed at great length. None of us are happy about it. Most will agree that Sony should not have shipped a PJ with this problem and that they should fix it. But we aren't ranting and raving or insulting anyone who isn't using Input A and is happy with the result.

If you really want to help us, tell us why you concluded that everything except Input A is crap. What other inputs have you tried? What other equipment did you connect to those inputs and what settings did you use? What kind of tests did you run? Did you calibrate all the inputs and if so how? Which DVDs and scenes did you watch? What specific problems did you see using other inputs?

I have my Momitsu V880 Deluxe connected to the HS51 input A (set to Auto) via a DVI-I to VGA cable. I can't get an image from the HS51 *unless* I select 1024p in the Momitsu setup menu. I select DVI-out for the Momitsu, but if I choose 720p 60hz, or 720p 50hz it doesn't work. 1280p gives me a scrambled image, so does 480p 60hz, 1080i, etc.

I'm hoping there are other Momitsu users who connect to an HS51 input A using a DVI-to-VGA cable. Remember, the Momitsu is the only standalone DVD player that has DVI-Analog capabality. So technically, a DVI-I to VGA cable should work perfectly with HS51 input A.

Any ideas, guys/gals?


S.Anderson

HS51 Owners please take part in this poll to determine if the is a panel alginment problem:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=496315

Please vote no matter how your HS51 looks. As a matter of fact we really want to hear from you if you have good alignment. Thank you.

P.S. Dont buy it yet, let me make the finial decision, and I'll let you know. Trust me If I aprove, then it will be perfect for anynoe.

This is the comment that really gets to me...Deciding on a projector should be done after seing it in person and really making a decision based on your own preferences. Not based on some self-proclaimed Internet hero whom seems to think he is the only authority on this projector and that everyone has the same preferences as him.

With that being said, we all would be happier if the cropping/overscan issues where fixed. But saying everything else sucks is not appropriate because I have seen it with a panasonic s97 over hdmi and 1080i and the picture looks just great, somehow a little more stable than over input-A. Then of cause its great to use input-A for pixel perfect and im currently doing it myself with a HTPC.

When posting on one of the biggest forums there is regarding AV, expect many users here to be experts and not that everyone is a projector rookie. These kind of statements just makes you not trust worthy.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I don't think this would work. The passive DVI to VGA adapters are only for devices that are sending analog RGB over a DVI-I or DVI-A connection. They do not convert DVI-D (digital) to VGA, this would require a digital to analog conversion. For example, the DVI-I connections on most video cards output both digital and analog, so you can use one of these to hookup a VGA monitor with the adapter. If you click the RAM electronics link at the top of the forum, they have a pretty good tutorial on all the flavors of DVI.

Cheers jschefdog, that makes sense. I thought it sounded too simple :D

Actually, there is a DVI-D to VGA 'blacl box' running around on this board. Its come up in commentary in both the CRT forum and Rich Folks digital forum.

Originally posted by Havocsi
panasonic s97 over hdmi and 1080i and the picture looks just great

I agree totaly with that. I was wondering if anyone knows why the down scaling, from 1080i to 720p,on the sony, gives a near identicle image to 720p (direct from my Panny S97) compared to upscaling, which results is a very different picture?

Here's one...Looks pretty tidy actually. And doesn't cost a bomb.

http://www.networktechinc.com/dvi-vga.html

Sorry to get off topic but I have to ask why during the Jets games the last two weeks Herm Edwards has the skin tone of a martian? He and a couple other people seem to have a green hue to them. Everyone else's skin tones seem to be right on. Anyone else notice this or is it just me and my set-up?

I guess after yesterday I won't need to worry about it until next August!

For those not using HTPC's how would you suggest checking panel alignment? I am feeding the unit HDTV via OTA / D* via DVI-HDMI and DVD via component. The picture is very good.

I have adjusted using DVE, Avia and THX and with the patterns have not noticed misalignment but that doesn't mean the panels are not misaligned.

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
I agree totaly with that. I was wondering if anyone knows why the down scaling, from 1080i to 720p,on the sony, gives a near identicle image to 720p (direct from my Panny S97) compared to upscaling, which results is a very different picture?
I am not sure why one would take this process:

480i (DVD original material) --> 480P (deinterlacing must come before scaling) --> 540P/1080P (not sure which path it takes) --> 1080i (out of the DVD player, only to) --> 1080i (into the HS51) --> 540P (deinterlace-down) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

480i --> 480P (out of the DVD player) --> 480P (into HS51) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

I see no reason to engage both the DVD player's deinterlacing and scaling resources AND the projector's deinterlacing and scaling resources.
Originally posted by LimeLizzards
Here's one...Looks pretty tidy actually. And doesn't cost a bomb.

http://www.networktechinc.com/dvi-vga.html
Yeah, but will is conveniently ignore HDCP que's? :)
Originally posted by jsirwin
For those not using HTPC's how would you suggest checking panel alignment? I am feeding the unit HDTV via OTA / D* via DVI-HDMI and DVD via component. The picture is very good.

I have adjusted using DVE, Avia and THX and with the patterns have not noticed misalignment but that doesn't mean the panels are not misaligned.

Open up Microsoft Paint in your HTPC. Under Attributes, change the workspace to 1280x720. Under View>Zoom, go to Custom and select 800%. Move the scroll bars to mid-points. Select the 'Fill with color' tool' and click on the workspace. The default foreground color is black (255,255,255). Now your workspace should be all black.

Now, select the 'Line' tool and make sure its the thinnest line. This will give you a 1-pixel width. Place the mouse cursor over the Foreground/Backgroup color legend and Left mouse-click on the white square. This will now change the foreground color to white (0,0,0).

Place your mouse cursor over the center of the workspace and click the mouse once. There, not you have a 1-pixel by 1-pixel 'dot'. Go to File, Save As, and save it as a Monochromatic bitmap. Now, go change your Windows desktop to this bitmap and walk up to your screen.

I am not sure why one would take this process:

480i (DVD original material) --> 480P (deinterlacing must come before scaling) --> 540P/1080P (not sure which path it takes) --> 1080i (out of the DVD player, only to) --> 1080i (into the HS51) --> 540P (deinterlace-down) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

480i --> 480P (out of the DVD player) --> 480P (into HS51) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

I see no reason to engage both the DVD player's deinterlacing and scaling resources AND the projector's deinterlacing and scaling resources.



I see so what your saying is let the DVD player de-interlace and let the sony upscale?

The reason I was feeding the sony the 1080i in the first place was to avoid the 720p overscan. And the 1080i picture is great. But I havn't tried what you suggest here...so I will :)

Yeah, but will is conveniently ignore HDCP que's?

O yeh...:(
Damn!

I understand what you are doing. Why else would you being talking about DVI-to-VGA? DVI, as a rule, but not as a norm will not take 480i without effeort. So, 480P would seem most appropriate in this case.

re: hdcp

If you venture into those other two forums you might stumble upon that little black box I mentioned. There must be some reason why they are talking about it. :D

Originally posted by TheFerret
Open up Microsoft Paint in your HTPC. Under Attributes, change the workspace to 1280x720. Under View>Zoom, go to Custom and select 800%. Move the scroll bars to mid-points. Select the 'Fill with color' tool' and click on the workspace. The default foreground color is black (255,255,255). Now your workspace should be all black.

Now, select the 'Line' tool and make sure its the thinnest line. This will give you a 1-pixel width. Place the mouse cursor over the Foreground/Backgroup color legend and Left mouse-click on the white square. This will now change the foreground color to white (0,0,0).

Place your mouse cursor over the center of the workspace and click the mouse once. There, not you have a 1-pixel by 1-pixel 'dot'. Go to File, Save As, and save it as a Monochromatic bitmap. Now, go change your Windows desktop to this bitmap and walk up to your screen.

You missed the part where he asked for people "not using HTPC's"

Brian

Doh! Yeah, I missed that 'out' portion, hehe.

Okay, I found out the settings for the Momitsu to output 720p to the HS51 input A.

Here is the tweak panel:
http://img40.exs.cx/img40/3946/tweakpanel3hq.jpg

And here is what it spit out for the Momitsu timings:
http://img40.exs.cx/img40/3103/settings6qy.jpg

I entered this into the Momitsu custom DVI output settings and then connected the DVI-A-to-VGA cable into the HS51 input A.

Using this cable:
http://img78.exs.cx/img78/2432/vgadvicab4sc.jpg


RESULT: Gorgeous picture! I've only watched SB Fifth Element this morning but it looked pretty close to HD. The thing is, how do I test whether I achieved 1:1 pixel mapping?


S.Anderson

Thanks Ferret, I might give that a whirl. Like one of the guys in the CRT forums said, it seems to me that the big boys in hollywood aren't going to like that little device too much :)

Its a dang good thing that its made overseas where Bullywood has a hard time influencing foreign nations. :)

A DVI-to-VGA cable won't do a damn thing to remove HDCP encryption.

No, your right it won't...but we're not talking about a DVI-VGA cable.
:)

I have adjusted using DVE, Avia and THX and with the patterns have not noticed misalignment but that doesn't mean the panels are not misaligned.


If you already have Avia,why bother HTPC custom pattern?
For instance, T2C10. Those test pattern are far better than bmp file.

You see the uniform pixels alignment with those pattern, and many to chose from. Every single released LCD FP will have this kind of talk, 1 pixel off is very very common for LCD FP.

My panny 500U has ~1.0 off GB Left, ~0.5 center B and ~1.5 GB right
while the sony hs50/51 has ~1.0B Left and Center and ~1.5B on far left. I have seen 3 pixels off hs20, and the owner never noticed a darn thing till this very day. They ain't uniform.... and i can' freaking tell without goldfishing my eye balls out from 1'. Hell, you can't really tell those misalignments from 5-6 foots and how far we seat from the screen??

If those of you think you probably have perfect alignment, check again. By the time you find a perfect one ( you probably won't) ,you missed all the good shows and season. On the other hand, hey.... The brown man get to know you better after 10 trips. :D

"Listen to me, Check out my set up... i got bose system and sponsored by Monster cables, i will approve the alignment system when i say YES":

1080i to sony from moto 6412 via HDMI and component is every bit comparable to panny without the noise, it's nothing crap about it. It's beautiful!!.

Now the negative, besides hdmi border issues, i'm seeing the blur effect with HTPC. It's very subtle with text but not the movie. I remember reading somewhere, someone mentioned this blurring screen with HTPC via HDMI like smooth effect being filtered. It does cause me headache to read the text. But i am very positive it's not the panel Misalignment, I never seen this on my Panny.

I'm gonna find me a longer HD15 and test it again on Input A, see if this is just an issue with HDMI.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am not sure why one would take this process:

480i (DVD original material) --> 480P (deinterlacing must come before scaling) --> 540P/1080P (not sure which path it takes) --> 1080i (out of the DVD player, only to) --> 1080i (into the HS51) --> 540P (deinterlace-down) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

480i --> 480P (out of the DVD player) --> 480P (into HS51) --> 720P (scaled to native panel rez).

I see no reason to engage both the DVD player's deinterlacing and scaling resources AND the projector's deinterlacing and scaling resources.
I have been playing with a Sony DVP-NS975V connected over HDMI and trying out the different resolution options watching the Video Essentials montage and some familiar movie scenes. It also offers 480i over HDMI which the HS-51 will accept, so in this case the PJ can do all the deinterlacing and scaling. They all look pretty good and the differences are subtle, but if I had to rank them it would be:

720p - has the black bars but the remaining image looks good
1080i
480p
480i - looked a little grainy compared to the others

I had also expected that 480i or 480p would be the best choice for the reasons you describe, and was surprised that I prefered 1080i over them. 1080i also has the advantage of 2-3% overscan vs 5% on 480i and 480p, so if you can't tell a difference in image quality you might choose it for that reason. With 720p you loose about 2-3% to the black bars, not good for a Windows desktop but not a big deal for DVD since it's comparable to typical overscan. The remaining image looks a little better than 1080i, but it's hard to describe why. It just seems slightly more stable and solid, you might even say more "film like" or real. Again, the difference is subtle, the 1080i image didn't really look unstable in any definable way.

There was a long discussion in the over $3500 forum about why 1080i input sometimes looks better on a 1280x720 PJ than 720p input. I don't remember if there were any conclusions.

LimeLizzards - did you even read my post. I was telling you how to get a nice DVI-D to VGA adaptor for less then the one your link is too. Plus is it a better unit.

Originally posted by SOWK
LimeLizzards - did you even read my post. I was telling you how to get a nice DVI-D to VGA adaptor for less then the one your link is too. Plus is it a better unit.

Probably not. Most people are not reading your posts anymore. I for one have to figure out how to use the Ignore list.

I overlooked that part of your post SOWK, and stumbled on the same unit that you mention via the CRT projector forum, but cheers anyway.

Originally posted by awtryau89
Probably not. Most people are not reading your posts anymore. I for one have to figure out how to use the Ignore list.

At the top of the page, click on "User CP". Then click on the header "edit ignore list". In here, type the nome of the person in one of the blank boxes and then hit the "update" button and that should do it.

Originally posted by Tekara
At the top of the page, click on "User CP". Then click on the header "edit ignore list". In here, type the nome of the person in one of the blank boxes and then hit the "update" button and that should do it.
Or just hit the Profile button on one of their posts and then go down to the bottom of the big box that ends with "Occupation) where there is a link to add them to your ignore list (next to the one about adding them to your buddy list). It is in light print on mine and a little bit hard to see, but it is down there.

I don't personally use the ignore feature, but I can understand why some people do.

--Darin

I just finished ceiling mounting my HS50 with a DIY mount. Parts list included 3 2" M5 bolts, assorted nuts and wingnuts for same, 8" leftover section of 3" PVC tubing, 2 3" PVC floor flanges, one old black soccer sock and 2 pieces of scrap 3/8" and 3/4" MDF. Also used a few miscellaneous nuts and bolts. The ~$20 Canadian sure beat the $300 or $600 pricetags for the ones at the $ony $tore

You can see some pics here in my gallery (http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=7423000) . Sure beats having wires laying on the floor :). One thing you can't see from the pics is 2 of the 3 PJ mounting holes were slotted to allow for adjustments. The wingnuts provided adjustments along all other axis. Like the convergence and SDE issues, the shoddy quality level of this mount cannot be observed unless examiniing from < 18". And I have 20/20 vision ;).

Even with these 720p/Input A problems, is there a better pj for the price?

I watched a football game in DTV/OTA from a 720P broadcast via a local affiliate. I noticed that with RGB/Computer I had formatting problems with L/R borders, and an unexplained video anomaly along the top (that I've seen on my CRT). Also, the side bar(s) was only one side or the other as if to almost shift the image sideways. This was on Input-A from a Samsung SIR-TS160 HD-STB.

When I switched to RGB/Video these two problems disappeared. Unfortunately, I did not measure the corner-pixel distances at the time to see if there was scaling going on in the final images. That was to be expected for adult beverages playing a large part in my afternoon. :)

Originally posted by zooxmusic
Even with these 720p/Input A problems, is there a better pj for the price?

Not that I see, but with the Panny with the white flash reportedly fixed, and a newer version with reportedly the VB issues fixed, this could sway more poeople to the $1k less Panny.

Wow, $1600 AE700!?! I'm impressed.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Wow, $1600 AE700!?! I'm impressed.

Ok, I'm wrong in the price difference then. I should of just said $500 msrp price difference. But my HS51 is on its way. Should have it by Friday I hope.

Does anyone notice light spill from their HS51? I have a manual pull down screen, and I have it 1 ft. from the wall. I can make out a border of light which my screen does not cover up (approx. 3 inches).


Is this normal?


S.Anderson

Yes, the exhaust port is spilling waste light out. This is pale in comparison to the out of the box minimum light level the projector achieve, though.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
I think I saw some very minor VB on the HS-51 last night.

It was on the DVD of Open Water, otherwise perhaps known as Blair Witch Shark Movie.

Anyway, this DVD has to be the worst quality I have seen in a DVD in a long time, maybe ever. Yes, worse than the original Highlander on DVD. ;)

It got me wondering if it was VB or something else. The artifact was vertical bar segmenting in some colors like, light ocean blue. It always adjacent to very poor alaising in the program material. It never covered the whole screen, but rather only very small patches for very short durations.

No other movies have exhibited VB so far.

I watched HellBoy on DVD tonight, and it was excellent. Only noticed the iris slightly drifting darker on a few of the back & forth scene changes with Liz.

I'm a novice HT person interested in the AE700. Can you or anyone point me to a screenshot so I know what VB looks like?

Thanks

Originally posted by dyp
I'm a novice HT person interested in the AE700. Can you or anyone point me to a screenshot so I know what VB looks like?

Thanks

Oops. I meant HS51.

Sure thing... here's an example from an AE500:

http://www.romabio.dk/media%5Cdownload%5CAE500_VB_screenshot.zip

Check it out. I figured it'd be better to provide the zip than resize the pics to post here.

reaper

Byte, with Open Water did you try to feed it through another path, like via a PC? I wonder if the setup as is can bring undesirable conditions to visible fruition.

Curious, I know no two projectors are the same, but could you PM me your current settings for DVD vs. transport?

Shoot--I'm on a linux box., that doesnt do zips.

Originally posted by reaper
Sure thing... here's an example from an AE500:

http://www.romabio.dk/media%5Cdownload%5CAE500_VB_screenshot.zip

Check it out. I figured it'd be better to provide the zip than resize the pics to post here.

reaper

Originally posted by mintakaX
Shoot--I'm on a linux box., that doesnt do zips.
GUNZIP? Or maybe its GNUZIP?

What exactly is VB?

I will be receiving my DVI to VGA converter today or tommarrow.

I will be using the

1. V-inc Bravo D2 DVI output to 720P
2. DVI to VGA Converter
3. Sony HS51 in Input A - Computer mode

I will let you all know if this gets ride of the 720P blanketing issue and how the pq looks compaired to the Hdmi input in 720P

Actually, gunzip is specifically designed for gzipped files. Most linux/unix machines have a command simply called unzip that should work for this file.

However, if that was a cleverly worded request to post the images online, I still think it's a bad idea to do this on AVS due to the fact it will shrink them. Perhaps I could post them to www.reaper.us sometime this week if enough people need the jpgs, but I can't make any promises. In all reality, anyone should be able to unzip a simple file :).

reaper

Heh, I'm completely lost. What image files?

I will be receiving my DVI to VGA converter today or tommarrow.

I will be using the

1. V-inc Bravo D2 DVI output to 720P
2. DVI to VGA Converter
3. Sony HS51 in Input A - Computer mode

I will let you all know if this gets ride of the 720P blanketing issue and how the pq looks compaired to the Hdmi input in 720P



Let us know if it works but do not be surprised if it does not.

Some source components will not output on DVI/HDMI unless a HDCP display device is connected on the other end.

I am currently converting a HDMI signal to VGA from a Hughes HD Receiver by connecting it thru a iScanHD+ and disabling HDCP on the InputSide of the iScanHd+. The Hughes should refuse to connect but for some reason it doesn't care and still outputs on the digital port. This allows the iScan to output VGA. Normally the iScanHD+ would be restricted from outputting on the analog output port if HDCP was turned ON.

Gary

I hope your wrong!!!! I just spent $300 for this thing and it better work!

Originally posted by TheFerret
Heh, I'm completely lost. What image files?

There are images (jpgs) inside the zip.

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
Sure thing... here's an example from an AE500:

http://www.romabio.dk/media%5Cdownload%5CAE500_VB_screenshot.zip

Check it out. I figured it'd be better to provide the zip than resize the pics to post here.

reaper

Thanks. But what's the diff bet the 2 image files: AE500_uden_vb and AE500_med_vb? I see that the image in AE500_uden_vb looks cleaner.

DYP

There are faint vertical bands running across the med image. I believe these are before and after the flicker tweak that is supposed to help reduce VB.

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
Actually, gunzip is specifically designed for gzipped files. Most linux/unix machines have a command simply called unzip that should work for this file.
reaper

I'll check for unzip tommorrow at work (we're usually way behind on installed stuff), now I'm at home on my PC and will unzip the file :)--Thanks.

SOWK, from reading little more about HDCP it would appear that even if the little black box works now, High Def content can contain keys to lock out certain pieces of equipment. So in the future it may stop working on certain HD-DVD/BlueRay etc etc. For Standard DVD viewing I can't see this being a problem, and am still very interested in hearing how it goes with the DVi-VGA adapter.

Originally posted by ay221
Not that I see, but with the Panny with the white flash reportedly fixed, and a newer version with reportedly the VB issues fixed, this could sway more poeople to the $1k less Panny.

Hmm, I have started following the Panny just today and have taken a mild interest in it. Can you tell me where I can read more about this newer version coming out ? Thx.

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
SOWK, from reading little more about HDCP it would appear that even if the little black box works now, High Def content can contain keys to lock out certain pieces of equipment. So in the future it may stop working on certain HD-DVD/BlueRay etc etc. For Standard DVD viewing I can't see this being a problem, and am still very interested in hearing how it goes with the DVi-VGA adapter.



I have it now and will be going home to test it out before work. I will post my results later today, well in about 5 hours or so! But from what I hear the Box is fully HDCP compatible. :) Plus it just strips off the HDCP incoding and sends the signal across. I read that in a review for a Ram Electronics version!

Sorry, double post

We'll here is an excerpt from RAM Electronics about DVI to VGA converters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

note: This adapter is mainly for connecting Computers to Display Monitors. Trying to connect a Set Top Box with DVI output to a Display with VGA or Component (analog) inputs is difficult due to HDCP. Many STB's do not set HDCP encryption "on" for content at this time, meaning you can use a DVI to VGA Converter for connection to HDTV's or Projectors with VGA (RGBHV) connections, or a combination of DVI to VGA converter and a VGA to Component video Transcoder to connect a HDTV or Projector with Component video inputs, and actually get a full resolution signal on your TV or Projector. If DirecTV or whoever supplies content to your STB, decides to turn on the "flag" for HDCP to be turned on for a channel or show, then no output will be delivered from DVI output of the STB to the DVI input of the converter, since the converter is not HDCP capable.
** It is not legal to make or sell HDCP capable DVI to analog (VGA - Component) converters**
Some of the new DVD players coming out have DVI-HDCP connectors. Some are even capable of outputting 720p and 1080i, but these will HDCP encrypt all DVI output, and will only work with HDTV's and Projectors with DVI-HDCP.

Gary

Yeh, I read that. Their converter doesn't support HDCP as, I think it was ,Ferrit already pointed out. There is however, another little device that does support HDCP and does a DVI-D to VGA conversion with a HDCP enabled player at one end, and is talked about in the CRT projector forum.

Originally posted by isamu
Hmm, I have started following the Panny just today and have taken a mild interest in it. Can you tell me where I can read more about this newer version coming out ? Thx.

Only read what angilasaurus posted about his CES visit at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=495571

Originally posted by SOWK
I will be receiving my DVI to VGA converter today or tommarrow.

I will be using the

1. V-inc Bravo D2 DVI output to 720P
2. DVI to VGA Converter
3. Sony HS51 in Input A - Computer mode

I will let you all know if this gets ride of the 720P blanketing issue and how the pq looks compaired to the Hdmi input in 720P


Well, here is the outcome!

I one word, Perfect.

Im using the exact configuration as above, and the image is mint. No more blanketing issues, Better contrast, better color. No video proccessing. YEA!

Looks quite abit better then HDMI in 720P mode!

Hi SOWK
Do you think your results can be obtain even with a long 10 m DVI cable ? My setup requires this. Have you achieve 1:1 mapping with VGA when you see the nice results ? Not doubting you, just wanna be sure because my purchase of this (vs a low price Epson 500 at 50 hours use) depend on this fact (Epson HDMI works fine)

This morning I was using an episode of Sunrise Earth as HD material to evaluate a digital transport to my 720P digital projector (Sony HS51). There was an early morning scene when the morning sunlight illumination was a strong reddish-orange that slowly changed to a yellowish-orange. The scene was a very still water stream big enough for a small fishing boat, and the adjacent pebble beach.

At one point there was something sloping out of the water. Looked almost like a hippo's head and the slope rose going from left to right. This object, if you will, was in deep shadow as to be backlit from the rising sun. What I started to observe was the left-edge of this object was greenish.

Now, I know I have previously tested for pixel misalignment in my display and there is a problem in that area. Some argued, though, that this cannot be scene at one's sitting position. To a certain extent I tend to agree, and in this scene I wasn't looking for panel alignment issues, but rather detail for the digital transport between 720P and 1080i output from my Samsung SIR-TS160 HD STB.

Being that I wear prescription eyewear, I made sure it was the refraction of my glasses for viewing angle. I removed the glasses and walked up to the screen and noticed the artifact, whether a true artifact in the mastering, transport, broadcast, or the virtual artifact due to a panel alignment condition.

Now, while the left-leading edge of shadowed objects in these scenes were greenish, the right side leading edges were reddish. I just want to rule out its not in the material as opposed to the display (which I am leaning towards). Anyone know how this show is mastered? I know Discovery HD is 1080. Even with the display's cropping issue (and additional processing) on 720P/STB, its also there in the 1080i/STB transport, too.

I'm doing basically the same thing except letting the iScanHD+ do the conversion from HDMI to VGA.

Picture is INCREDIBLE !

So what DVI --> VGA converter are you using?

Is it the Dtrovision MODEL DC-DA1

Gary


Originally posted by SOWK
Well, here is the outcome!

I one word, Perfect.

Im using the exact configuration as above, and the image is mint. No more blanketing issues, Better contrast, better color. No video proccessing. YEA!

Looks quite abit better then HDMI in 720P mode!

Originally posted by gdemott

So what DVI --> VGA converter are you using?

Is it the Dtrovision MODEL DC-DA1

Gary

Yes I am. It works great, and will take in a 1080P signal as well!

Originally posted by pyro2003
Hi SOWK
Do you think your results can be obtain even with a long 10 m DVI cable ? My setup requires this. Have you achieve 1:1 mapping with VGA when you see the nice results ? Not doubting you, just wanna be sure because my purchase of this (vs a low price Epson 500 at 50 hours use) depend on this fact (Epson HDMI works fine)

Yes it will work fine, as long as you have used the DVI cable before. If the cable works, it should be fine, is that a fiber DVI cable?

Yes I have 1:1 mapping, no cropping!

Originally posted by SOWK
Well, here is the outcome!

I one word, Perfect.

Im using the exact configuration as above, and the image is mint. No more blanketing issues, Better contrast, better color. No video proccessing. YEA!

Looks quite abit better then HDMI in 720P mode!

I take it you really need a DVI dvd player and not an HDMI one, correct?
And also I could get a cable with a built in VGA in one end like this one:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI_monitor_cables.html#DVI-A_VGA
You think that will work using the above cable, and a dvi dvd player?

And for HD STB, would you use the same thing, DVI to VGA via 720p? Or would HDCP issues prevent that, and you would simply have to use dvi straight?

Am I understand all of this correctly ...

You folks are finding trouble with your RGB output on your sources, or those sources adhere to HDCP that you look for external solutions to feed the Sony RGB because its digital tranpost sucks?

Originally posted by ay221
I take it you really need a DVI dvd player and not an HDMI one, correct?
And also I could get a cable with a built in VGA in one end like this one:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI_monitor_cables.html#DVI-A_VGA
You think that will work using the above cable, and a dvi dvd player?

And for HD STB, would you use the same thing, DVI to VGA via 720p? Or would HDCP issues prevent that, and you would simply have to use dvi straight?

Yes you can, get an HDMI to DVI Adaptor, like $30.00
But the cable you are looking at will not work. That cable will only convert a Analoge signal over dvi to vga, you need a digital DVI signal to VGA

Get the Converter at DigitalConnections.com for about $280.00 if you want to get it done.

That's my angle SOWk. I have a HDMI-DVI, shouldn't lose anything quality wise in the conversion, then DVI-D to VGA via that little box, if they ever send me one.

ay221, you should note that the longest cable should be the digital one, ie the DVI, because the analogue signal will deteriate more over a long run.

Anyone tried it on PAL,ie 50HZ to see if the borders are there?

The only way I have been able to achieve 1:1 is INPUT-A Computer.

So here's the problem for any non PC Theater System without a VGA output.

My Directv HD (Hughes 250GB HDMI) receiver outputs HD on component or HDMI. There is no RGB VGA output. So there has to be some form of external process to convert to RGB VGA. This is also true with a standalone (non-PC) DVD player.

It is really hard to describe in words how good this setup is......
Hughes Directv HD Receiver via HDMI --> iScanHD+ --> INPUT-A Computer

Originally posted by TheFerret
Am I understand all of this correctly ...

You folks are finding trouble with your RGB output on your sources, or those sources adhere to HDCP that you look for external solutions to feed the Sony RGB because its digital tranpost sucks?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Am I understand all of this correctly ...

You folks are finding trouble with your RGB output on your sources, or those sources adhere to HDCP that you look for external solutions to feed the Sony RGB because its digital tranpost sucks?


You know TheFerret I got a post deleted, because of talk like this. HAHA. :)

Now you people are starting to listen.

Im not full of ----, I just care about getting the most out of my investments.

And the sooner most people relize this, then they might just start to listen to me, and thank me afterwords!

I think I'm going to be in the same situation as you are, but a Motorola 6412 instead of the Directv HD. Not sure I can bypass HDCP like you are. I'm curious if you could: Hughes Directv HD Receiver via component --> iScanHD+ --> INPUT-A Computer

Originally posted by gdemott
The only way I have been able to achieve 1:1 is INPUT-A Computer.

So here's the problem for any non PC Theater System without a VGA output.

My Directv HD (Hughes 250GB HDMI) receiver outputs HD on component or HDMI. There is no RGB VGA output. So there has to be some form of external process to convert to RGB VGA. This is also true with a standalone (non-PC) DVD player.

It is really hard to describe in words how good this setup is......
Hughes Directv HD Receiver via HDMI --> iScanHD+ --> INPUT-A Computer

Hi!

I'm not sure I understand all of this completely... Would it be possible to use a DVD player with DVI-D out - like e.g. the Momitsu V880 - and a DVI-D to VGA cable and get this perfect result with 1:1 pixel mapping?

Morten

I'm getting a "halo" framing the picture. It's like two pixels thick and brighter than the rest of the picture. I'm using component cables in my setup. It's not that bad because the screen frame absorbs it. What is this artifact?

Originally posted by mskp
Hi!

I'm not sure I understand all of this completely... Would it be possible to use a DVD player with DVI-D out - like e.g. the Momitsu V880 - and a DVI-D to VGA cable and get this perfect result with 1:1 pixel mapping?

Morten


If its a true DVI-D (digital) to (analog) VGA cable. Check for the HDCP compatibility. They cost around $300.00

If its under $50.00 I can almost for certin tell you it wont work! - it would be a DVI-A to VGA cable more then likely!


This is the device I am using...

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP

Will work fully with HDCP, and accepts a 1080P input! :)

The Momitzu does not apply HDCP. It has a DVI-I output connector, and it is outputing both digital and analog signals. I am using a DVI-VGA adaptor from a Radeon PC card and getting a signal that the HS 51 recognizes as 1280X720 and I have no cropping. Looks great, but what I don't know is whether it's exacly 'pixel perfect' in the sense that I don't have a pattern to tweak the H and V settings. Anybody know where such a pattern might be found?

What you can do, if you have one, is hook up a computer, setup to 1280X720 60hz, Get the APA fucntion of the sony to adjust the picture so its perfect, Look for sharp text, and make sure you see no ghosting at all!, and turn off Auto APA in the menu so it wont try to configure the image. and you'll know it perfect any time you turn the unit on!

Anybody know where such a pattern might be found?
you sure have one of those calibration disk right? avia, dve...

Problem with avia is, the image produced by that is only in native 480P resolution, not even close to a real computer image at 1280X720, all you need to do is bring up word pad, type something, and if the text is super sharp, and no ghosting, your set.

SOWK... pixels alignment and ghosting are different...

pixels misaligments on your LCD panels while ghosting got more to do with media (defective or poorly sheild cables)
480/720 in will give you same number of misalignment.

Originally posted by SOWK
What you can do, if you have one, is hook up a computer, setup to 1280X720 60hz, Get the APA fucntion of the sony to adjust the picture so its perfect, Look for sharp text, and make sure you see no ghosting at all!, and turn off Auto APA in the menu so it wont try to configure the image. and you'll know it perfect any time you turn the unit on!

But if the timings of the signal from the Momitsu are any different than the PC then I don't think we can assume all is well - or at least that all is perfect. It sure would be nice if one of the calibration disks had a 720p pattern with alternating black and white single pixels. I'll try the PC though and see what the results are. Thanks.

For HTPC users:
There was a pixel by pixel pattern posted for 1280x720 by one of the members in this thread or the other one. Search for it. You set your desktop to 1280x720 and then let the sony do its thing. You will notice banding or other anomalies like blue around the edges. You play with the h and v and sync settings in the sony menu and you will get to a point where the picture fits perfectly and all banding goes away and you can see each pixel perfectly. Voila, you are done.

Brian

Sorry for not thinking so clearly. It would be pretty hard to come up with a DVD that had a 720p pattern, since DVD is 480P, as SOWK indicated. Guess I need to plead my case with the Momitsu people to include such a capability in a new firmware for the player, sort of like the internal pattern capabilities that you find in processors like the DVDO.

Actually I think the Momitsu does have the capability to use custom timings, so maybe once you know what the exact timings are for the PC signal, you could use that info to tweak the Momitsu's settings.

Greg, what cool, is that the Sony detects 720P as 1280X720 60hz, so if you get a perfect PC image you will also get the perfect DVD image!

I have done this, thats why I know it works, try it. You'll thank me!

I have the Vinc, Bravo D2 at 720P, The sony in computer mode, will only detect it as 1280X720 60hz, same as the computer. The Sony's good for locking down modes. Actually, it is the one thing that also doesnt allow me to select a 16X9 format for 480P, the sony will only see it as 640X480 4x3!

There was a pixel by pixel pattern posted for 1280x720 by one of the members in this thread or the other one. Search for it. You set your desktop to 1280x720 and then let the sony do its thing. You will notice banding or other anomalies like blue around the edges. You play with the h and v and sync settings in the sony menu and you will get to a point where the picture fits perfectly and all banding goes away and you can see each pixel perfectly. Voila, you are done.


not that simple...

All 3 LCD has to be done with incredible precision during manufacture to get a perfect misalignment. Any physical impact ( Brown man in a bad day..:D) , or even heat could cause a slight shift of the LCD resulting in pixel misalignment. I used to follow hs20 and many have issue with misalignment after months of usage... It's a physical tolerance issues and great thing about it, it's NOT uniform. If you can adjust the H&V to get left side even, guess what, right is off...

if so adjustment could help, you got to have perfect uniformly misalignment unit to start with........

That's my theory, i'll try it later tonight to prove me wrong :D

Originally posted by usabrian
For HTPC users:
There was a pixel by pixel pattern posted for 1280x720 by one of the members in this thread or the other one. Search for it. You set your desktop to 1280x720 and then let the sony do its thing. You will notice banding or other anomalies like blue around the edges. You play with the h and v and sync settings in the sony menu and you will get to a point where the picture fits perfectly and all banding goes away and you can see each pixel perfectly. Voila, you are done.

Brian
Brian, was this something that you recently discovered & achieved in results?

Originally posted by SOWK
Greg, what cool, is that the Sony detects 720P as 1280X720 60hz, so if you get a perfect PC image you will also get the perfect DVD image!

I have done this, thats why I know it works, try it. You'll thank me!

I have the Vinc, Bravo D2 at 720P, The sony in computer mode, will only detect it as 1280X720 60hz, same as the computer. The Sony's good for locking down modes. Actually, it is the one thing that also doesnt allow me to select a 16X9 format for 480P, the sony will only see it as 640X480 4x3!

That's great SOWK. I'll give it a whirl. Thanks ahead of time. :D

Originally posted by TheFerret
Brian, was this something that you recently discovered & achieved in results?

This is regarding VGA, I have always been able to get pixel perfect via that.

Brian

OK, I've read through this thread, and the Z3 consolidated thread, and any other thread I could find about these 2 PJs. Still...

I currently have a Matinee 1HD (Z1 rebadged), and I've got the upgrade bug. My only major gripe with the 1HD is blacks/CR. Liveable, but still...

Of course I'll have to buy sight-unseen. Don't like DLP, and I need a PJ with substantial shift. So, it's either the Z3 or the $800 more expensive HS51.

It will be used 99% for DVD watching in a complete light-controlled environment.

Few questions:

1) I will be suitably impressed by the black level/contrast improvement over the 1HD with either PJ, yes?

2) Is there *that* much of a black level/contrast difference between the 2 (dark room, auto iris, low lamp, etc)?

3) The Z3 and the HS51 will be nearly silent compared to the 1HD, correct?

4) There isn't really a better LCD than the HS51 for a couple bucks more at the moment - it's as good as it gets?

Many thanks in advance, the advice on this forum got me into the 1HD which I've loved for 2 years.

Ken

That VGA adapter is a little expensive. I think I will use 480i dvd component player for now then upgrade later. Don't want to buy a new player and adapter right at the same time Im buying the projector and screen. Friday is my delivery date, which means I can set it up this coming weekend.

Originally posted by usabrian
For HTPC users:
There was a pixel by pixel pattern posted for 1280x720 by one of the members in this thread or the other one. Search for it.
You can get the test pattern and instructions from this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4862513#post4862513) on page 2 of the Tweak thread.

Ferret,

Did you every post a comprehensive review/thoughts of your HS51? I've seen comments here and there about it from you. But I don't recall seeing a nice long post with conslusive thoughts, personal opinions, etc.

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
Ferret,

Did you every post a comprehensive review/thoughts of your HS51? I've seen comments here and there about it from you. But I don't recall seeing a nice long post with conslusive thoughts, personal opinions, etc.

reaper

I already asked for one, he said he's done posting reviews. After the last LCD review posted by him where he claims he was scorched :)

@ Ferret:

How 'bout a disclaimer at the top of your next review? This way people won't take it so seriously!



S.Anderson

I am waiting too Ferret!

LOL, you guys are funny. I just spent the last two hours conducting an A-B with my entry-level CRT that was calibrated some 15-months ago. I am not even sure if there is an unfairness to what I am doing, and if there was an unfairness which side it would be against.

Still, what was captured in pictures is interesting. :)

Man, talk about a teaser. That was just uncool! Waiting on you is like waiting on cine4home to post part 3. Hahah. If you're worried about getting flamed for your review... I'll just say it sucks right now so we can get that out of the way. Now, since you've been flamed for it, you might as well go ahead and post it... with pictures!

reaper

I just got my HS-51 on Monday and it is great! I have watched several movies from my HTPC and played a few PS2 games and I am very happy with everything. I have played with a few settings and now want to get serious about getting it tweaked properly. My question is has anyone used the ImageDirector CD that comes with the 51 and if so, what does it do and is it useful? I installed the CD but don't have the correct USB cable and before I buy one I would like to know if it is worth my time/money?

Derek

If anyone cares I will still post my review if interested. I will be nicer to the unit then my first mini-review post that got deleted!

sowk, you are alright.

I am waiting on my draper M2500 to post a point or two how does it compare to panny 500u.
Material would be comcast 6412 hd 1080i component/dvi
HTPC dvd and hd ts files vga720p

Originally posted by kendenton
OK, I've read through this thread, and the Z3 consolidated thread, and any other thread I could find about these 2 PJs. Still...

I currently have a Matinee 1HD (Z1 rebadged), and I've got the upgrade bug. My only major gripe with the 1HD is blacks/CR. Liveable, but still...

Of course I'll have to buy sight-unseen. Don't like DLP, and I need a PJ with substantial shift. So, it's either the Z3 or the $800 more expensive HS51.

It will be used 99% for DVD watching in a complete light-controlled environment.

Few questions:

1) I will be suitably impressed by the black level/contrast improvement over the 1HD with either PJ, yes?

2) Is there *that* much of a black level/contrast difference between the 2 (dark room, auto iris, low lamp, etc)?

3) The Z3 and the HS51 will be nearly silent compared to the 1HD, correct?

4) There isn't really a better LCD than the HS51 for a couple bucks more at the moment - it's as good as it gets?

Many thanks in advance, the advice on this forum got me into the 1HD which I've loved for 2 years.

Ken

I upgraded from an hs10 to the hs51. I have not seen a 1hd but it is from about the same generation as my h10 so the comparison will probably be similar.

1) My cr on the hs10 was about 500:1 calibrated with no filter. My out of box cr (with brightness and contrast settings set) on the hs51 is about 3200:1. The hs51 is a bit dimmer than the hs10 so the increased contrast is from a much lower black level. Its not a subtle difference.

2) I beleive you are refering to the difference between the z3 and hs51? I do not know about the z3 but I have seen the black level comparisons on WSR and the hs51 black level compares favorably with dlps.

3) While the hs51 is not completely silent--I can hear it when there is no noise in the house--it is MUCH quieter than the hs10.

4) I don't know that it is the best lcd out there but I would say its pretty darn good. I am amazed at the progress sony has made in two generations of pj.

In a month or so I hope to rent colorfacts and really try and dial in the hs51. I am curious on what filter would work best. The reports of a filtered hs50 gettting 7000+:1 cr has me interested.

It's tough to follow all the posts but am I correct in understanding that the blanketing issue exists on both the HDMI and component inputs but does not exist on the Input A (VGA) input?

I've read that folks are converting HDMI to analog VGA through cables, scalers etc. in order to avoid the blanketing issue and get true pixel perfect through input A.

Maybe this is a dumb question but would it be possible to use a cable that converted from component video to to VGA and avoid the blanketing issue that way? For instance, could the blanketing issue be avoided by using the component output from say a cable STB, and connect it to the Input A connector of the projector with a component to VGA cable?

Thanks,
Naz

Originally posted by JJay
In a month or so I hope to rent colorfacts and really try and dial in the hs51. I am curious on what filter would work best. The reports of a filtered hs50 gettting 7000+:1 cr has me interested.

Where are these reports? I've been following both od the HS51 threads and I don't recall anything close to 7,000:1.

Originally posted by docphi
I'm getting a "halo" framing the picture. It's like two pixels thick and brighter than the rest of the picture. I'm using component cables in my setup. It's not that bad because the screen frame absorbs it. What is this artifact?



Bump...

Originally posted by extreme0016
My question is has anyone used the ImageDirector CD that comes with the 51 and if so, what does it do and is it useful?
As far as I can tell, the only thing you can do with ImageDirector is create custom gamma curves and load them into the PJ. I haven't tried using it. I have read enough to have some understanding of what gamma is and how it affects the image, but don't know how I would judge if I was making the image quality better or worse by tweaking the curves. There was a pretty good discussion of gamma in the over $3500 forum recently with some links to interesting gamma info on the web.

Originally posted by Nasmo_Q
It's tough to follow all the posts but am I correct in understanding that the blanketing issue exists on both the HDMI and component inputs but does not exist on the Input A (VGA) input?

Maybe this is a dumb question but would it be possible to use a cable that converted from component video to to VGA and avoid the blanketing issue that way?
I've been following this thread from the beginning, and from what I have read your understanding is correct. I haven't seen the black border on Component since I don't have any 720P component source, but have seen it on HDMI from both a HTPC and a DVD player. Others have reported the black border with 720P over component. So far Input A in Computer mode is the only method anyone has reported to get no black borders with 720P input.

Input A does support component input and you can connect a simple adapter cable with VGA on one end and RCA on the other. But if you do this Input A will switch to Component mode instead of Computer mode. Someone reported trying this and they still got the black borders.

If you can convert component to VGA/RGB, you should be able to eliminate the borders. It doesn't seem to matter what the source is, if it will feed VGA/RGB to Input A in Computer Mode, it should not have the borders. So far people have reported success with HTPC, scalers, the Momitsu DVD player and DVI to VGA converters.

For instance, could the blanketing issue be avoided by using the component output from say a cable STB, and connect it to the Input A connector of the projector with a component to VGA cable?


possible, if only hs50/51 sync on green or you may need a transcoder to do so.

I have both the cables and transcoder, i will test it out for you if you buy me a drink... :D

Input-A does support Cmoponent.

Cine4Home review is up. Translate away.

Who did the 7,000:1 tweak that Olson and others are quoting?

babefish Cine4Home transaltion

We come now to the most exciting part of the picture test. Sony indicates a maximum contrast of no less than 6000:1 in the technical data self-confidently, a value, which is not at present reached even by most expensive DLP projectors. To make possible is this the variable iris screen, which we in the chapter "Technik" described in detail. This indication works for a LCD projector in such a manner utopian highly that it interests our readers burning, whether it concerns here a pure marketing Gag, or whether the HS50 the actual promised contrast miracle is. Also we were before our measurements sceptical, but actual, when full utilization of the contrast and the RGB Gains our test copy reached a contrast relationship of no less than 6100:1. However this high value cannot be combined with an adequate color representation. In in the chapter "Farbtemperatur" optimized form or in the "Kino" pre-setting remains however nevertheless still another contrast from 2800:1 to 3200:1. Also these are still values, which are even in hoechstpreisigen projector segments the exception. This high contrast is reached particularly by an uncommonly protruding schwarzwert with closed iris. It filters so much low light from the projection way that the VPL-HS50 belongs to one of the projectors with best schwarzwert at all. Since the Panasonic PT-AE700 there were again and again discussions whether the principle of the variable iris screen actually leads to a picture improvement, or a pure Schummel instrument is, in order snaps practice-far measurements up to leave. The HS50 disproves these "Kritiken" in impressing way: When regarding film scenes is it shown, to which for outstanding results the variable iris screen can lead. By its outstanding schwarzwert also still so dark scenes become, e.g. from "Panic Room", of digital projectors feared a film, with responding picture depth on the canvas gebannt. The simultaneous gamma adjustment ensures with the fact always for the fact that also not bright picture elements in dark scenes appear too dark, but an adequate brightness keep. Sony is to be produced it with its variant of the variable iris screen successfully in all without exception picture scenes leg-printing depth dynamics in the picture, which are reached so far by no other LCD projector. But weakness has the variable iris screen of the projector still: If the picture content changes fast from very bright on very dark, then the screen closes directly completely, but does not darken within some seconds after. So it can with camera cuts of bright on dark scenes pass that the direct contrast jump cure timely only approx.. 1500:1 amount to. However this effect arose rarely with our film tests and is also only consciously perceptible, if one concentrates on this phenomenon. According to our opinion this is a compromise, which can be taken to favour of the outstanding picture plasticity in most scenes problem-free in purchase. A further still somewhat disturbing detail is a high blue surplus in black, which is unavoidable likewise with all LCD projectors so far. Too much blue in the schwarzwert by this blue surplus works the black in very dark scenes more remarkably, than with projectors with balanced schwarzwert. A very good schwarzwert should be never paid in practice with a too high light loss in bright scenes. If luminous intensity is not sufficient, then daily photographs work too darkly and colors less strongly. In addition, it shows up here that the method of the variable iris screen supplies the best from both worlds. In the lamp savings mode the HS50 for display widths to 2,5m is very well suitable. Who would like to project still broader large pictures, can besides the light achievement by "Normal "Schaltung the lamp visibly increase, the contrast relationship remains of it uninfluenced highly. Altogether the Sony VPL-HS50 offers depth dynamics, which were not reached so far within the LCD range and also only by very good DLP projectors are visibly exceeded. One should make certain however that the area is completely darkened and produces if possible little scattered light, in order to keep the optimal schwarzwert also actual on the canvas. Note: The variable iris screen can be switched off in the picture menu of the projector also completely and/or closed durably. In latter mode the projector reaches a contrast of 1200:1, the indication of the manufacturer astonishing is exactly reached also here

Is it me or can you see panel alignment issues in the TVL patterns?

Anyone else getting babelfish to work? Seems problematic again.

Its not working for me, but I gather its why HHF posted the text.