So do you guys figure that if you use a non-HTPC DVI/HDMI source with the FW upgrade, you can get 1:1 mapping with pass through (no processing as well as no cropping)?

And if so, is it more like a particular subset of products rather than just "not an HTPC"?

Question for those who have an HS50/51...would it be heretic of me to jump ship at this point and lean towards either of an InFocus 7210 and/or an Optoma 79?

TIA,

Joel

Originally posted by Joelc
Question for those who have an HS50/51...would it be heretic of me to jump ship at this point and lean towards either of an InFocus 7210 and/or an Optoma 79?

TIA,

Joel

No, but it will cost you...

Brian

Byte, I am not sure how you can theorize that a HTPC would be doing something different or wrong from a scaler. The reports are from every HTPC user whether they are Geforce or ATI users. All's a scaler is doing is scaling to a common timing and that is what cards do. There should not be any cute deinterlacing or pull down going on with a straight pass thru of 720p. Any timing can be exactly duplicated with a HTPC. I know you are sensitive to this but as far as I know you are the only user who has claimed to have an equal or superior image from HDMI. And yet, you have never shown that and now of course you cannot. So that makes us understandably a bit skeptical. Do you have some sort of real hypthesis here on how the HTPC could be doing something different?

But as I have mentioned, while looking at text is night and day it is hard to tell the difference between HDMI and VGA with dvd, except for the rather obvious difference in black levels. But dvd is a rather poor source to judge. I should try to compare with a hidef source.

Brian

You should under no circumstances use a PC RGB output for for your video levels!! I don't know how to make this any clearer. Studio RGB levels are the norm for video and that is what is used for mastering film and DVD. It is the only way you preserve the dynamic range of black and white.

Byte is not the only one who has seen 1:1 mapping via HDMI, I said earlier that I say this too when I hooked up a Denon 5910 and output 720P via HDMI and used the test pattern on AVIA Pro. I was clearly seeing 1 pixel on, one pixel off in both the vertical and horizantal. The image was also extremelly sharp and easily handled the highest frequency detail of DVD. I have not had the oppurtunity to compare VGA to HDMI yet but I will when I get a 51 in from Sony. I have an Iscan HD so it will be easy to test.

A word of advice though, if you have a HDMI player use the HDMI output. HDMI to HDMI is going to be a lot better then DVI to HDMI. Set your HDMI output for YCbCr and take advantage of 10 bit processing!! This will clean up a significant amount of banding in the gray scale. This can be seen quite easily using a gray ramp.

Originally posted by usabrian
Byte, I am not sure how you can theorize that a HTPC would be doing something different or wrong from a scaler. ...
as far as I know you are the only user who has claimed to have an equal or superior image from HDMI.
Brian
We need to be clear if we are talking about DVD player/HDMI or HTPC/DIV/HDMI. I would give the edge to DVD player1080i/HDMI over HTPC/DVI/HDMI.

We know PC>DVI>HDMI to hs51 is not pass tho but we heard iscan hd+ hdmi is GOOD. Can someone PC>iscan HD+>hdmi>hs51 then set iscan hd+ hdmi out to appropriate settins. All you need to load up same old desktop with texts BUT don't criticise the pq on movie playback. Let put this issue to an end, we don't have solid answer on how sony trade each hdmi signal differently, why don't do a little trial and error? Any iscan hd+ user with knowledge of "PC" instead of "HTPC". Ok, they are not any different :D

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Byte is not the only one who has seen 1:1 mapping via HDMI, I said earlier that I say this too when I hooked up a Denon 5910 and output 720P via HDMI and used the test pattern on AVIA Pro. I was clearly seeing 1 pixel on, one pixel off in both the vertical and horizantal.

No offense Kris, but could you please explain how you can can verify 1:1 mapping of 1280x720 with a 720x480 source? I'm sorry but I can't phathom that. The best you could get is 1 on 1 off on the DVD but that's about 1.7 pixels on the HS51 for every 1 pixel on the DVD (horizontally at least).

That's quite a bit different than sending a 1280x720 1x1 on/off pattern where 1 pixel on the source maps to 1 pixel on the display.

Originally posted by stanger89
No offense Kris, but could you please explain how you can can verify 1:1 mapping of 1280x720 with a 720x480 source?

You are not convinced that the AVIA Pro test patterns that Kris used are really 1280x720?

No, I think what he is saying is that the only true 1:1 pixel mapping, source to display, can be done with a true 1280X720p source such as HDTV. Anything else will have some manipulation done to the signal before it's presented to the PJ.

IOW, the PJ may very well do 1280x720 1:1 mapping, but since DVD is 720x480 you're talking about two different pixel counts, meaning that the scaled up pixels were not in the original source material.

This is what I think anyways, I'm sure Kris will correct me if I'm wrong..:)

My thoughts exactly, AVIA-Pro is a DVD test/setup disk (suite), as such it is 720x480 and must be scaled to match the pannel resolution of the HS51. My argument is that with AVIA-Pro alone, there's no way* to tell if 1:1 mapping is occuring.

*Actually it's possible, but would require running AVIA at 720x480, unscaled (ie not using the full panel resolution) but I don't think that happens.

For a test disk, you'd need something like the 720p Version of Digital Video Essentails to verify pixel mapping.

Man you guys kill me. I thought the DVD player forum was bad.

Yes, the Avia DVD pattern is 720x480, but that DOESN'T matter as it is being scaled to 720P before the Sony ever sees it. I have verified this on several different projectors including the Optoma H79 and the JVC HD2K. The pattern is a perfect 1 pixel off, 1 pixel on pattern so it doesn't matter as long as it is being scaled to the appropriate resolution of the PJ. It woudln't count if I was feeding the PJ 480P though, or if I was using a "passthrough" aspect ratio setting (unless of course you wanted to verify 1:1 pixel mapping for various resolutions in a pass through mode.

I hope this isn't too hard to understand. When Sony sends me a PJ I will test it again with an actual test generator so there will be no discrepencies. But there shouldn't be any doubts with what I have already done.

Kris... do you recommend YCbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:2? I am test driving the Panny S97 and it has those options as wellas HDMI RGB

Shouldn't matter. Most MPEG decoders go to 4:4:4 automatically but that shouldn't affect the bit rate for the processing. I would try both using a gray ramp test. If one of them shows obvious banding and the other doesn't then use the one that doesn't show any. The PJ is going to do color space conversion anyways to RGB which is already 4:4:4.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Man you guys kill me. I thought the DVD player forum was bad.

I have a lot of respect for your oppinions Kris, I'm just trying to understand.

Yes, the Avia DVD pattern is 720x480, but that DOESN'T matter as it is being scaled to 720P before the Sony ever sees it.

I understand that the projector doesn't care, and can't tell what the source resolution is if it was scaled, that's not the issue.

I have verified this on several different projectors including the Optoma H79 and the JVC HD2K. The pattern is a perfect 1 pixel off, 1 pixel on pattern so it doesn't matter as long as it is being scaled to the appropriate resolution of the PJ.

This is what I don't understand, given a source with a 1 on 1 off pattern, once scaled, it's no longer a 1 on 1 off pattern. I made a couple images in Photoshop to illustrate what I'm talking about, on is a 720x480 checkerboard pattern (1x1), the other is the 1280x720 version after being scaled by PS.

As you can clearly see, the scaled version is not 1 on one off, it has bits of grey in it. You'll have to zoom in a long way to see the difference.

Originally posted by keenan
No, I think what he is saying is that the only true 1:1 pixel mapping, source to display, can be done with a true 1280X720p source such as HDTV. Anything else will have some manipulation done to the signal before it's presented to the PJ.

IOW, the PJ may very well do 1280x720 1:1 mapping, but since DVD is 720x480 you're talking about two different pixel counts, meaning that the scaled up pixels were not in the original source material.

This is what I think anyways, I'm sure Kris will correct me if I'm wrong..:)

No, he is saying he is not convinced that the AVIA Pro test patterns that Kris used are really 1280x720!

IIRC Guy Kuo does AVIA. He is a frequent AVS poster, maybe he could shed some light on this.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
No he is saying he is not convinced that the AVIA Pro test patterns that Kris used are really 1280x720!



Well, they are not if they come from a DVD. But this is all pretty much an exercise in what happens when, after the image has been scaled the resulting pixels are then mapped 1:1 and displayed as 1:1 by the PJ.

Personally, I don't see this as being a big issue, as long as the scaled image is presented in a 1:1 format on the display, that's really all that matters...I don't think anyone wants a 720x480 pixel mapped image to be displayed...on a native 1280x720 display...?

The AVIA pro test patterns are not 1280x720, they are 720x480.

Guys, I have hooked up a new 2910 to my HS-50 via HDMI to HDMI, running at 1080i. I have an older unit that does not have the 720p fix.

When I run the THX optimiser (the one with the THX logo shadow test to adjust brightness) I get a solid black box until I increase brightness and contrast to almost maximum. I run the pj in cinema mode with iris on auto.

Any suggestions as to what I am doing wrong? I usually run the pj at around 60 for brightness and 80 to 90 for contrast. Colour temp is set to middle (I think).

Originally posted by Kris Deering
A word of advice though, if you have a HDMI player use the HDMI output. HDMI to HDMI is going to be a lot better then DVI to HDMI. Set your HDMI output for YCbCr and take advantage of 10 bit processing!! This will clean up a significant amount of banding in the gray scale. This can be seen quite easily using a gray ramp.

Kris, I followed your advice and have the JVB 3910 SDI & iScan HD+ SDI on its way. What do suspect will be the best way to connect these to the PJ?

----------------------------
Ron Party

When I run the THX optimiser (the one with the THX logo shadow test to adjust brightness) I get a solid black box until I increase brightness and contrast to almost maximum. I run the pj in cinema mode with iris on auto.

Solid black box? did you not get the THX shadow??

Hello Everyone,

We auditioned the Sony HS51 yesterday at a store after reading about it for a long time at this forum and we loved it. The dealer had the SP7200 in the same setup to compare but it wasn't side by side. The SP7200 was much brighter but we still liked the image on the Sony. Now, I'm unable to convince my wife to look at the Panny, the other pj we have on our list to audition before pulling the trigger.

Anyways, the question I have is the difference I will see in PQ between my setup and the one I saw at the store.

Store setup :
* Rear projection 106" diag
* Draper Screen
* PJ placed 12 ft away on a table
* Sony DVD Player connected via Component output

My Planned setup
* Front Projection 106"
* Da-Lite Model C- csr - ceiling mounted ( High Contrast Matte White)
* PJ placed 12 ft away on a table
* Sony DVD Player connected via Component output till Blu-Ray players are released
* Light controlled env

How much difference we will see RP vs FP with the Sony??

Thanks for your responses.

Well my HS51 is packed up and going out to Juan tomorrow via Fed Ex overnight. $80 stings but I would rather have the unit get there quickly and back quickly. Much less chance for damage this way. I got the Event # from Sony and was told to send to San Diego but I am sending it straight to Juan in Laredo anyway. I am having Juan do 3 things: the 720p fix, panel alignment and lense shift tightening. The panel alighment is only off by 1 pixel but Juan says he can bring it in line. The lense shift is a problem. My unit seems to be loose. I can get the picture perfectly centered one night then come back the next day and it has sagged and the image is not centered. Anyone else had this problem? Anyway, I hope to have it back by the end of the week unless there are major problems. I will report back.

zeroendless

I dont get the THX shadow until I boost brightness to about 90/95 on the scale.

Bytehoven

I'm not sure what firmware version I have in the 2910 (I'm in Australia and I'm not 100% sure what our latest should be....).

"Try a combination or NORMAL and either 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE setup. One of those setups should restore your blacker than black reproduction."

I tried HDMI output at both Normal and Enhanced and it didn't seem to make any difference on the screen - I'll try it again tonight to be sure.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Man you guys kill me. I thought the DVD player forum was bad.

Yes, the Avia DVD pattern is 720x480, but that DOESN'T matter as it is being scaled to 720P before the Sony ever sees it. I have verified this on several different projectors including the Optoma H79 and the JVC HD2K. The pattern is a perfect 1 pixel off, 1 pixel on pattern so it doesn't matter as long as it is being scaled to the appropriate resolution of the PJ.

LOL!

There is a way to verify 1:1 mapping with a 720x480 DVD source - using the PMS Crystalio scaler with the included "Pixel Magic" pattern DVD, over a SDI input (analog input will do but digital connection is a safer bet). The scaler has a special "Pixel Magic" mode to use with the "Pixel Magic" DVD. The pattern DVD has 1:1 on/off H/V/checker patterns. The scaler will display the source 720x480 within a higher output resolution such as 1280x720. One can move around the small 720x480 pattern in the output resolution, to 100% verify any form of real 1:1 pixel mapping.

Such 1:1 pixel mapping verification is NOT possible with ANY upconvert player using ANY DVD source as far as I know.

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Man you guys kill me. I thought the DVD player forum was bad.
Ummm. . . maybe that's because they're correct?

Yes, the Avia DVD pattern is 720x480, but that DOESN'T matter as it is being scaled to 720P before the Sony ever sees it. I have verified this on several different projectors including the Optoma H79 and the JVC HD2K. The pattern is a perfect 1 pixel off, 1 pixel on pattern so it doesn't matter as long as it is being scaled to the appropriate resolution of the PJ. It woudln't count if I was feeding the PJ 480P though, or if I was using a "passthrough" aspect ratio setting (unless of course you wanted to verify 1:1 pixel mapping for various resolutions in a pass through mode.
Of course it matters. If the source is a 1-pixel on/off pattern and you scale it to a different resolution it will no longer be a 1-pixel on/off pattern. A single input pixel has been scaled to span more than just one output pixel. The only way I can see how what you describe could work is if your scaler/player has a mode such as Li On describes where the source image is not scaled but is placed within a smaller window in the overall 720p image. Otherwise, 1 pixel in the 480i/p source image is scaled to more than 1 pixel in the 720p image. If you can describe how it could possibly work otherwise I'd love to hear the explanation.

I hope this isn't too hard to understand. When Sony sends me a PJ I will test it again with an actual test generator so there will be no discrepencies. But there shouldn't be any doubts with what I have already done.
I have lot of doubts. Flat out disbelief, actually. ;) Perhaps you're doing something different than what I described above and I'm simply misunderstanding, however. If so, please explain.

Now, the test pattern generator sounds like a great idea, assuming it can generate a native 720p pattern (e.g., Accupel). Other possible sources which could work for this would be a scaler with built-in test pattern generation capability such as the iScan HD series.

- Dale Adams

Hi Dale, nice to see you post! :)

The problem of HS50/51 HDMI 1:1 mapping is a bit complicate! Besides the blanking issue which the new firmware seems fixed from user's comment, the whole 1280x720 is indeed mapped to the native panel. But the whole image seems been processed by a low passed filter. Hence each pixel looks a bit like a round dot instead of a perfect square pixel. That's why the text on a PC desktop looks much blur than the perfectly sharp image from the VGA port (with the clock/phase correctly adjusted).

Byte claims the iScan HD internal 1 pixel on/off pattern is perfectly resolved on the Sony via HDMI. I can't verify the test as I've no iScan HD to test. IMO if the Sony can't resolve a 1 pixel on/off pattern from a PC in 1280x720 over HDMI then I can't understand why the iScan HD should work. Even so the problem with HTPC still exist and need to be resolve by Sony.

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by av4fun
Hello Everyone,

My Planned setup
* Front Projection 106"
* Da-Lite Model C- csr - ceiling mounted ( High Contrast Matte White)
* PJ placed 12 ft away on a table
* Sony DVD Player connected via Component output till Blu-Ray players are released
* Light controlled env
.

Hi av4fun (me too!),

My only comment is that I started out with the High Contrast Matte White screen for my setup and did not like it. It showed ripples and waves - even after a warrenty exchange. I upgraded to their High Power and could not be happier! The High Power is highly recommended by many and I certainly agree. The viewing angle concerns with it are really not an issue with my setup (ceiling mounted PJ Sanyo PLV70). With the Sony, the increased gain of the HP should be a good thing, even in a light controlled room.

FWIW,
Gordon

Originally posted by Li On
The problem of HS50/51 HDMI 1:1 mapping is a bit complicate! Besides the blanking issue which the new firmware seems fixed from user's comment, the whole 1280x720 is indeed mapped to the native panel. But the whole image seems been processed by a low passed filter. Hence each pixel looks a bit like a round dot instead of a perfect square pixel. That's why the text on a PC desktop looks much blur than the perfectly sharp image from the VGA port (with the clock/phase correctly adjusted).
It may be that the scaler in the HS50/51 is not being completely bypassed in the "1:1" mode, but that the 720p input data is passing through the projector's scaler with a scaling ratio of 1.0 - i.e., the output resolution is the same as the input resolution. A scaler inherently includes a low-pass filter. If the cutoff frequency of the filter is set too low, then you could get the smearing effect you describe. You'd still get something very much like 1:1 pixel mapping, but each output pixel would not be solely derived from a single input pixel but from some number of input pixels. I haven't seen this projector, so I don't really know what it's output looks like or what it's internal processing is really doing.

The iScan works like this - i.e., even when the output resolution is the same as the input resolution the data still passes through the iScan's scaling logic - but it has a special mode where the scaler's filter coefficient values are such that each output pixel is derived from only one input pixel. (In more technical terms, all the filter coefficients but one are zero.)

Byte claims the iScan HD internal 1 pixel on/off pattern is perfectly resolved on the Sony via HDMI. I can't verify the test as I've no iScan HD to test. IMO if the Sony can't resolve a 1 pixel on/off pattern from a PC in 1280x720 over HDMI then I can't understand why the iScan HD should work.
I'm not sure I could explain this either. It could be that the Sony requires a particular 720p timing to work as Byte describes and that the iScan just happens to have this while no one with a PC has generated it yet. Or, it could be that the Sony is actually low-pass filtering the 720p signal, but the severity of the filtering is modest enough that you can still make out a clear 1-pixel on/off pattern. The aliasing you get with most computer outputs may well make the filtering effects more visible.

One test to try with the iScan (if any one with an HS50/51 has one), is to adjust the iScan and projector to get 1:1 mapping (assuming that's possible) using the appropriate test pattern(s), and then put up something like the iScan's crosshatch or focus test patterns and closely examine the 1-pixel wide lines to verify that they're not smeared over more than one display pixel location. This may be much more apparent with these test patterns than the 1-pixel checkerboard as the 1-pixel wide lines will be bordered by wide areas of black.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Yes, the Iscan HD checkerboard, vertical & horizontal test patterns clearly show the HS-51 performs 1:1 pixel mapping via the 720p input. While the Iscan HD 720p patterns input thru the HDMI port were properly mapped without any user adjustment, the VGA-RGB input required sync timing adjustments on the HS-51 to minimize banding & noise.
What you describe with the projector's analog input is typical of the type of adjustments you need to make when converting an analog signal to digital to minimize conversion artifacts. Some conversion hardware does this sort of thing automatically, but none of them are perfect.

It's a shame you don't still have the iScan, as you could use it's test patterns to try the test I described in my previous post. Anyone else out there with this combination who could try this?

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Bytehoven
When sending a 1080i 48hz signal to the HS-51, I found I needed to adjust the Iscan horizontal front porch to about 750 for the image to properly sync and center. The HS-51 then reported 1080p24sf.
The timing specs for 1080p 24sF (SMPTE RP 211) require a horizontal front porch timing of 594 clocks. The other timing parameters should all be the same as for 1080i. The longer front porch results in the pixel clock frequency being the same as for 1080i/60.

For a digital signal (DVI) the front porch should be 636 clocks (with a 44-clock sync pulse). The digital timings are a bit different than the analog ones due to the reference timing edge of tri-sync being in the middle of the sync pulse while it's at the leading edge for the digital sync.

If you have a demo Iscan HD floating around, I would gladly run some specific tests, takes some pics and then return the Iscan and post the findings. ;)
I'll check. No promises, though. :)

- Dale Adams

I'm not sure I could explain this either. It could be that the Sony requires a particular 720p timing to work as Byte describes and that the iScan just happens to have this while no one with a PC has generated it yet. Or, it could be that the Sony is actually low-pass filtering the 720p signal, but the severity of the filtering is modest enough that you can still make out a clear 1-pixel on/off pattern. The aliasing you get with most computer outputs may well make the filtering effects more visible.


I spend roughly 3 hours PS-timing my pc with Powerstrip 3.57 Released 01/07/05 the night i got the hs51 , mostly focus on 720p with dvi. After 3 hours looking at burring texts on 106", my eyes so stressted out and I have to gave up.....NADA.

If someone with iscan got the magic timing(PM me or post here), i would love to try it out again with PS 3.58 (Released 03/07/05) and my fixed hs51 should be back in any day now.

Originally posted by zeroendless
If someone with iscan got the magic timing(PM me or post here), i would love to try it out again with PS 3.58 (Released 03/07/05) and my fixed hs51 should be back in any day now.
I don't know that there's anything magic about them, but here are the default iScan 720p timing numbers for DVI output:

Horizontal Active Video: 1280
Horizontal Front Porch: 110
Horizontal Sync: 40
Horizontal Back Porch: 220

Vertical Active Video: 720
Vertical Front Porch: 5
Vertical Sync: 5
Vertical Back Porch: 20

These are all the same as specified by EIA/CEA-861-B, by the way.

- Dale Adams

The total horizontal dots are 1280+110+40+220=1650. If we MUST get this EXACT number, then it's quite impossible on both Nvidia and ATI card as both support only pixel count dividable by 8 which maybe either 1648 or 1656.

regards,

Li On

Hello together

I have a HTPC connected to my HS50@60Hz via VGA. I had a very little, but nerving flicker in the picture. After trying to adjust the timing with powerstrip a long time, the exact timing does not eliminate the flickering. Here a tip for all the other HTPC users with the same problem: change the timing to 75 Hz or higher and the picture is flicker-free.

I come from switzerland and I have asked the sony repair center what they mean about the problems discussed here. No answer since 2 weaks. I will inform if I hear something new. Or does any other guy from switzerland know anything about it?

Originally posted by Li On
The total horizontal dots are 1280+110+40+220=1650. If we MUST get this EXACT number, then it's quite impossible on both Nvidia and ATI card as both support only pixel count dividable by 8 which maybe either 1648 or 1656.
Perhaps that's the problem, then - the Sony projector is looking for exactly 1650 pixel clocks per line. This could be easily verified with something like the iScan which can alter the horizontal timing in 1-clock increments.

The projector may only be this picky on it's HDMI input. That might explain why the analog VGA input appears to allow 1:1 mapping while the HDMI input does not (with a PC, anyway).

Note that 1650 clocks per line is exactly per the 720p spec for both analog and digital standards. If most PCs can't produce this timing then they may have problems with other native 720p displays as well (or not - it really all depends on how picky the display is about the 720p timing). Has anyone seen this sort of thing with any display but the HS50/51?

- Dale Adams

Thanks for the clarification on the 1:1 Dale, learn something new everyday.

I am waiting on a 51 from Sony right now but it looks to be a long wait. I have an Iscan HD+ as you know so I will run the tests you mentioned when it comes in.

Originally posted by Dale Adams
Note that 1650 clocks per line is exactly per the 720p spec for both analog and digital standards.

Is that different than the EIA/CEA-861B spec? Because AFIAK, ATI and nVidia have added EIA/CEA-861B support in recent drivers.

Originally posted by Dale Adams
I don't know that there's anything magic about them, but here are the default iScan 720p timing numbers for DVI output:

Horizontal Active Video: 1280
Horizontal Front Porch: 110
Horizontal Sync: 40
Horizontal Back Porch: 220

Vertical Active Video: 720
Vertical Front Porch: 5
Vertical Sync: 5
Vertical Back Porch: 20

These are all the same as specified by EIA/CEA-861-B, by the way.

- Dale Adams

Dale,

Are these timings different if you are using the analogue VGA output? I noticed that you indicated there were different ones for digital and analog when you were discussing 1080p24sf. Thanks

Greg Stitt

Originally posted by stanger89
Is that different than the EIA/CEA-861B spec? Because AFIAK, ATI and nVidia have added EIA/CEA-861B support in recent drivers.
861-B specifies 1650 pixel clocks per line, at least for a 60 Hz frame rate. For a 50 Hz frame rate it's 1980 clocks per line (where the extra 330 clocks are added to the horizontal front porch).

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Greg Stitt
Are these timings different if you are using the analogue VGA output? I noticed that you indicated there were different ones for digital and analog when you were discussing 1080p24sf.
Yes, they're different for analog and digital outputs. The difference is in the horizontal front porch and sync timings. For analog output the front porch is 70 clocks and the sync pulse width is 80.

These analog timings are the specified ones for a component output with tri-level sync. Your display may require something more like the digital (DVI) timings if you're using bi-level sync and RGB. The issue is which edge of the sync pulse is used as the timing reference. For tri-level sync it's the positive-going edge in the middle of the sync pulse; for bi-level sync it's the leading edge of the sync pulse.

- Dale Adams

I talked to Guy about the pattern I was using on Avia Pro. The test represents the Nyquist rate of DVD for horizontal and vertical, which the HS-51 passed perfectly.

I am going to use the test pattern generator in the Iscan when the PJ arrives.

As for my comment about you guys killing me, it wasn't in regards to the questions, it was in regards to everyone going round and round with each other in this thread. I thought the DVD boards were bad. I don't mind questions at all. I have never claimed to know everything and never will.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I talked to Guy about the pattern I was using on Avia Pro. The test represents the Nyquist rate of DVD for horizontal and vertical, which the HS-51 passed perfectly.
The problem is that once you've up-scaled the signal that pattern is no longer at the Nyquist rate of the new sampling rate. That's why you either need to not scale the original 480i/p test pattern or to generate a test pattern from scratch at the Nyquist rate of the 720p signal.

I am going to use the test pattern generator in the Iscan when the PJ arrives.
I think we're all very interested to hear the results. In particular, it would be very interesting to see what happens if you add or subtract a few clocks from the horizontal blanking period to simulate the PC output.

As for my comment about you guys killing me, it wasn't in regards to the questions, it was in regards to everyone going round and round with each other in this thread. I thought the DVD boards were bad. I don't mind questions at all. I have never claimed to know everything and never will.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I definitely have to agree with you here. It seems the same old arguments are being tossed back and forth with no new data or definitive experiments to prove a point one way or the other.

- Dale Adams

Yeah, sure, just keep on backpedaling... ;) Just kidding, really. No, really...

This thread got a whole lot more interesting in the last little bit and we may be getting closer to a reason for the processing on the HDMI. And just maybe Byte is not crazy after all... ;)

:)Brian

Well based on Dale's comments it doesn't really matter anyways does it? It would really only matter if you were sending the PJ a true 720P signal that had never been scaled. So we're talking a handful of over the air broadcasts. DVD won't matter, D-Theater won't matter and neither will most cable. Which is probably why there isn't much difference switching between inputs with most material.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Well based on Dale's comments it doesn't really matter anyways does it? It would really only matter if you were sending the PJ a true 720P signal that had never been scaled. So we're talking a handful of over the air broadcasts. DVD won't matter, D-Theater won't matter and neither will most cable. Which is probably why there isn't much difference switching between inputs with most material.

As I mentioned earlier, that's my take on it as well, and that is one of the drawbacks to 1280x720 displays, there is very little native 1280x720 material out there, most everything that's displayed will require some manipulation through the signal path from source to final image.

It's the quality of that manipulation that determines a large portion of the final image quality.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Well based on Dale's comments it doesn't really matter anyways does it? It would really only matter if you were sending the PJ a true 720P signal that had never been scaled. So we're talking a handful of over the air broadcasts. DVD won't matter, D-Theater won't matter and neither will most cable. Which is probably why there isn't much difference switching between inputs with most material.
I'll have to disagree with this viewpoint.

Even if the source was not originally 720p - e.g., deinterlaced and upscaled DVD - you don't want to process the signal twice. That's what's happening if you're not bypassing the projector's internal scaler and/or filtering, which is the whole point of 1:1 mapping regardless of whether the source is native 720p or not. Comments made by others regarding a 'softer' looking image with PC signals indicate that the image may be being detrimentally processed.

I would say that this matters even more for 1080i sources than for 480i/p sources. With a lower-resolution source you never really had 720p resolution to start with, so a modest amount of low-pass filtering may not cause much visible degradation in the image (but we don't yet know how much there really is with the HS50/51). That's generally not true with 1080i, though. 1080i downscaled to 720p - assuming a good deinterlacing and scaling job - should have very close to full, if not full, 720p resolution and you certainly don't want to re-scale or filter that.

- Dale Adams

Dale, Thank you for your very informative posts, you are right in a lot of ways. Didn't read all your posts, but if I did I might have said in every way :)

I dont know if you ever read any posts of mine. But you can if you look for them in the forum. Under SOWK's.

Thanks for joining in on the Sony HS51 Forum.

- SOWK

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Thanks for the clarification on the 1:1 Dale, learn something new everyday.

I am waiting on a 51 from Sony right now but it looks to be a long wait. I have an Iscan HD+ as you know so I will run the tests you mentioned when it comes in.

Bytehoven has an HS51 with the software fix, and Kris has an iScan HD+ in his hands.

Time for a meeting between you two fellas?

We could put this HDMI issue to rest once and for all :)

One major question for Kris, or Byte.

How can you bypass the internal proccessing of the Sony HS51 by using the Iscan HD+?

Originally posted by usabrian
Yeah, sure, just keep on backpedaling... ;) Just kidding, really. No, really...

This thread got a whole lot more interesting in the last little bit and we may be getting closer to a reason for the processing on the HDMI. And just maybe Byte is not crazy after all... ;)

:)Brian

Brian, please refer me to bytes post you are talking about, so I can read it, please.

What post number(s)

-SOWK

Originally posted by Sony HS51
One major question for Kris, or Byte.

How can you bypass the internal proccessing of the Sony HS51 by using the Iscan HD+?

Read Dale's post. He thinks there is a chance that the timing that the DVDO is using for 720P may be the key. I guess it is not a timing supported by the video cards on PCs for digital out.

What about my Bravo D2 DVD player? or My Denon 3910 DVD player?

I know the Bravo has a custom timming for the DVI output.

What about the Denon 3910?

Also, what about any other consumer Device?

Well try and setup your Bravo D2 to the timings that Dale posted and see if it works. He says the timing and resolution for the DVDO is to the spec perfectly, where some ouputs may not be.

Since DVD players are upscaled anyways it may be impossible to test for this without using a test generator like the DVDO. Unless you know of some way to put out a true 720P 1 pixel off/ 1 pixel on test pattern from a DVD player?!? The only one that will that I know of is the Zensonic player that isn't even out yet. And only because it support WMV-HD and Digital Video Essentials Pro may have a 720P resolution test pattern.

It may just come down to testing out all your options and seeing which one works the best, unless Sony can figure out a way to make the projector less picky via HDMI.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Read Dale's post. He thinks there is a chance that the timing that the DVDO is using for 720P may be the key. I guess it is not a timing supported by the video cards on PCs for digital out.


If you read the review from Projector Central for the HS51 they say and I quote


“The one significant weakness of the HS51 is in its scaling of standard definition material through the analog ports. For example, with a DVD source input via 480i or 480p through the component video port, there is an edge enhancement in the horizontal dimension that is not related to the sharpness control. This has the effect of imparting an artificial sharpness to the image which makes it appear decidedly more digital and less film-like. Once the signal is upscaled externally to 720p, bypassing the internal scaler, the artifact is eliminated and the picture is smooth and clean.
This scaling artifact has more of an impact on a DVD picture than on other sources like standard definition television or VCR. That is because television or VCR signals are of lesser quality than DVD to begin with. Therefore the impact of the scaling artifacts is partially masked by the inherent noise and instability of the signal. It is still there, but in a side by side comparison with another 1280x720 LCD projector such as the Panasonic AE700, the HS51's television picture is only marginally compromised. Conversely, since DVD is a cleaner signal, the scaling artifacts become quite a bit more visible. Using analog component inputs side by side with the AE700, the HS51 appears to be noisy and digital, whereas the AE700 appears smoother, better integrated, and more film-like.



This competitive match-up, the "HS51 + iScan HD+" is the clear winner in overall image performance due to the HS51's superior black level and contrast performance, and the iScan's superior video processing. Therefore we can say that the Sony HS51 is highly recommended, contingent upon it being combined with the DVDO iScan HD+. Without the iScan HD+, many users will be better off to opt for the Panasonic AE700 or some other lower cost product that offers a better price/performance proposition for standard definition sources.”

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony_vpl-hs51.htm




From there review it sounds like the iScan HD+ does bypass the internal scalier.

Mid-Atlantic? Where are you Greenland or Iceland? Not much out there in the Atlantic. But me being in the Seattle area makes me about as far away as I can be!!

FYI, I have no way to test it but:

I went into the Advanced Resolution pannel on my Geforce 6800 (66.93 driver IIRC) and selected the 720p 59.94Hz EIA/CEA-861B timing, and the numbers it showed (porches + sync + active) were exactly = 1650. They were (IIRC) 1280, 110, 220, 40 (active, front/back, sync - can't remember if which was front/back).

well, i'm glad i just checked this thread again, cause yesterday i didn't have any help. i installed a DVI-VGA converter going from my bravo d2 to the hs50, but still had overscan. i then went in and adjusted to 1650, and it then appeared to be 1:1, although i can't test for it either. are there any other adjustments recommended for the HS50 while using VGA? also, what difference does the Hz make? is 48/72 the way to go instead of 60Hz?

eric

did some more playing, and now it looks like 1656 H Size is the way to go, at least for me. it does look much better with better shadow detail than component. also looks a little less digital than HDMI, but my HS50 is not 720p fixed, hence the converter. also, the converter i've got, although not HDCP complient yet, is made by a forum member who also makes DVI inputs for CRT projectors, and costs $100. works like a charm. i also bought a very inexpensive DVI cable that is 10m long and less than $60. image looks great using 720p and 1080i(HDMI adapter) and no sparkles or noise of any kind. PM if interested.

eric

1656 better than the mode #56 1664?

i'm not sure, but i think i'm running mode #103 1656

Here's what my info screen reports running my HTPC into the HDMI:

fH 45.02kHz
fV 60.0 Hz
No. 10
720/60p

The PC detects the HS50 and reports 1280x720 @ 60Hz.

Adjusting the Projector for a 1:1 only requires an understanding of powerstrip and what you are seeing. A 1:1 ratio can be adjusted on the projector or on the PC. Take your choice. If there is a Service menu on the HS51 that is similar to the Sony XBR950, then I may be able to assist.

With Sony devices, NVidia cards are generally easier to work with an attain your target.

Ive attached a small gif file you can use as a tiled desktop pattern. It will display any vertical or horizontal timing imperfections that you will need to work through.

A 1:1 display will get a perfect H and V Grid. You will see H or V banding if the signal is out of sync with the display.

Generall speaking, I had to make adjustments to the vetical and horizontal size on the GWIII's service menu to get a 1:1 image to pop in. And yes. it makes a HUGE difference.

Thx,
Vidkidd

Originally posted by ericeash
well, i'm glad i just checked this thread again, cause yesterday i didn't have any help. i installed a DVI-VGA converter going from my bravo d2 to the hs50, but still had overscan. i then went in and adjusted to 1650, and it then appeared to be 1:1, although i can't test for it either. are there any other adjustments recommended for the HS50 while using VGA? also, what difference does the Hz make? is 48/72 the way to go instead of 60Hz?

eric

I too have the HS50 and have purchased a DVI to VGA converter -I was seduced by SOWK 's high recommendation on his numerous posts.
I'm overseas at the moment away from my home so cannot comment on performance yet. But please enlighten me on how to adjust to 1650-Is that out put from the Bravo?Also previously read that the converter may not work for PAL , but I'm prepared for that eventuality.

Originally posted by masterpasser
I too have the HS50 and have purchased a DVI to VGA converter -I was seduced by SOWK 's high recommendation on his numerous posts.
I'm overseas at the moment away from my home so cannot comment on performance yet. But please enlighten me on how to adjust to 1650-Is that out put from the Bravo?Also previously read that the converter may not work for PAL , but I'm prepared for that eventuality.

Do you have an american NTSC Bravo, or a PAL bravo?

You should set the Bravo to a 60Hz output - this will work with the DVI-VGA adaptor.

Also I would assume that your HS50 accepts 60hz?

I do not know what whould happen at 50hz. I have both a HTPC and a Bravo D2, but when I tryed both they were at 60hz. Both work flawlessly on the Sony HS51.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
OK, let me do this again, and everybody please contribute if you are able.

Fill in the blanks on these parameters, as well as a brief description of your observation of 720p HDMI, Component or Video GBR observations.

Comments:


Is this for a potential fix to the 1:1 mapping/proccessing issue?

Byte you have a HS51 or HS50?

Also, if you get this fixed, then there is absolutly no use for my adaptor.

I would have to rewrite my entire review! hehe :P

But I do want you know I informed you about this along time ago when you started your own sony fix thread.

Thanks for doing this again, Byte.

I'll provide the timings when mine return, it was suppose to be here yesterday but brown didn't show up....well.

But I just took a look on default Nvidia 66.93 720p 861-B ( same spec from iscan hd+), it's the same 1650 pixel clocks per line that i tested the hs51 before. I spend hours of ps-timing back when i first got the sony with no lucks. I doubt it gonna make any different but i shall try it again.

ps, Juan said he tested pc via vga/hdmibut can't tell a thing.

[Edit: brownie is here, hs51 is back but me at work now... the rest of the day gonna be hard to concentrate..:D, it's like having new projector all over again...LOL. I will get you some numbers tonight ]

Bytehoven, your the man! I love it when some one can gracefully go the source of the issue and and invoke sincere efforts to resolve it. I'm sure I speak for many when I say, thank you.

Well...Sony Canada has delayed the HS50 to APRIL 20 2005.
Until today the expected arrival date was March 16 2005.
Today has been extended..................@#$K
I need a projector !!!

Originally posted by CORRY
Well...Sony Canada has delayed the HS50 to APRIL 20 2005.
Until today the expected arrival date was March 16 2005.
Today has been extended..................@#$K
I need a projector !!!

If you're really that desperate, why not just get one on Ebay?

Canadian custom's duties would probably raise the price too much...

Why is the launch delayed in Canada?

The launch wasn't delayed. They've been selling them since December here in Canada. Also buying from the US would save some serious $. The issue is if something needs fixing.

Originally posted by zeroendless
ps, Juan said he tested pc via vga/hdmibut can't tell a thing.

[Edit: brownie is here, hs51 is back but me at work now... the rest of the day gonna be hard to concentrate..:D, it's like having new projector all over again...LOL. I will get you some numbers tonight ]

Seems you are a home theater PC enthusiast. I've been waiting on your findings, pertaining to the HS51/HDMI issue.

I'm looking forward to hearing your results after the upgrade. Thanks.

[edit: please post pics if possible; via HDMI & VGA to compare the difference after the upgrade]

what the heck? correct me if i am wrong, those who got the fixed didn't see exact same amount of overscan they put on 720p just like 1080i....

Am i the only on seeing this??? My fixed 720p version is overscan....LOL. did they just crop the "masking" and zoom to fit? I am seeing the same thing on 6412 and htpc...down to pc tweaking now.

{EDIT} on 720p hdmi
-------------------
720p : blanking issue
720p with fix : crop blanking, zoom to fit. Resulted in overscan, slightly less than 1080i.

Now you don't have to deal with blanking but overscan with 720p hdmi in. Apparently Sony did consult HBO on their cropping kill......LOL

Well, no point to figure out timings for 720p anymore if this is the best they can do.

[edit: please post pics if possible; via HDMI & VGA to compare the difference after the upgrade]

Sorry mate, just sold my dig cam. The only different from the upgrade is the crop blanking, as far as i can tell, all remain the same so far.

For 6412, i will still with 1080i due to almost same amount of overscan from 720p and inferior deinterace job from moto.

HTPC, no doubt, vga all the way.

DVD player, don't have upconvert piece to compare.

Originally posted by SOWK
Do you have an american NTSC Bravo, or a PAL bravo?

You should set the Bravo to a 60Hz output - this will work with the DVI-VGA adaptor.

Also I would assume that your HS50 accepts 60hz?

I do not know what whould happen at 50hz. I have both a HTPC and a Bravo D2, but when I tryed both they were at 60hz. Both work flawlessly on the Sony HS51.

I'm based in Australia - so PAL here.
Don't have a Bravo , but a Samsung DVD 747 with DVI output.
I don't know whether output can be switched to 60hz.
I'm working in Baku so itching to get back and experiment with various settings recommended.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Am i the only on seeing this??? My fixed 720p version is overscan....LOL. did they just crop the "masking" and zoom to fit? I am seeing the same thing on 6412 and htpc...down to pc tweaking now.

Thanks! That settles any 1:1 mapping issue! LOL!

regards,

Li On

I took bit closer look, observing the infor report from sony and shifting around the h&v. Few hours of ps-tweaking getting me going nowhere but headache. it's getting late and i have to work tomorrow but i wrote down the infor&setting and will post it tomorrow. Ciao.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
<SNIP>
Power Strip/Processor sync timings:
Horizontal Active Video:
Horizontal Front Porch:
Horizontal Sync:
Horizontal Back Porch:

Vertical Active Video:
Vertical Front Porch:
Vertical Sync:
Vertical Back Porch:


Any tips on how to gather this info? I don't use powerstrip. I run an ASUS Radeon 9700XT with the recent drivers. Don't remember seeing this info anywhere when I was playing with DVI settings to try and make the picture useable.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Sorry mate, just sold my dig cam. The only different from the upgrade is the crop blanking, as far as i can tell, all remain the same so far.

For 6412, i will still with 1080i due to almost same amount of overscan from 720p and inferior deinterace job from moto.

HTPC, no doubt, vga all the way.

DVD player, don't have upconvert piece to compare.

@ zeroendless

Did you ask Juan (Laredo) to tweak the panel? Did you notice any difference in terms of alignment? Let us know, thanks.

[The reason I ask, is to know whether panel alignment can be tweaked at Laredo without prism assembly block replacement. Thanks.]

Originally posted by Rieper
@ zeroendless

Did you ask Juan (Laredo) to tweak the panel? Did you notice any difference in terms of alignment? Let us know, thanks.

[The reason I ask, is to know if panel alignment can be tweaked at Laredo without prism assembly block replacement. Thanks.]

I spoke to Juan yesterday and he told me he was working on my unit. According to Juan, the panel alighment can be done if it is 2 pixels or less in no more than 2 directions. If it is off more than that, it will need a new prism block. Juan said the blocks are exactly the same, just better QC on their end. From listening to him, I got the impression that this may not be a physical alignment but something he could do in the menus. No proof of that and I did not follow up but that's the impression I got.

By "delayed" I meant the availability to purchase now... after the fix.
I know it has been available since december but now it is not available until April 20. I had one that I returned sometimes in February and I was waiting for the new batch that was supposed to be avail on March 16.... Now they have delayed this to April 20.
I just checked with the SonyStyle......

yep i phoned my local hi-fi shop in the uk and he said late april to as he phone sonys rep up, at this rate the HS-60 will be out soon sony is so slow at gettin it right and getting them out

I was enjoying some time re-reading old posts about the HS51. Check out some of these statements...


madpoet:
These specs are obviously blatantly wrong in regards to CR anyway.

akm3:
I don't know about everyone else, but I see Sony's hyped up specs time and time again disappoint in the real world, and it really makes me not care so much/be less interested about their products.

Vashon Donique:
Yeah, and even if they we're remotely close, my bet would be it wouldn't be on this forum

madpoet:
Either it's a typo or this will turn out to be the silliest marketing claim ever made in a projector.

Ohlson:

I believe that the cr could be true but I doubt the lumens figure more.
My guess
600 ANSI lumen calibrated
5000-6000 dynamic range
1200-1400 cr


EHUFF:

Oh, lets just cut to the chase:

New specs:

Contrast: Infinity:1


Gus:
2. A fourth panel is definitely used

Originally posted by zeroendless
what the heck? correct me if i am wrong, those who got the fixed didn't see exact same amount of overscan they put on 720p just like 1080i....

Am i the only on seeing this??? My fixed 720p version is overscan....LOL. did they just crop the "masking" and zoom to fit? I am seeing the same thing on 6412 and htpc...down to pc tweaking now.

{EDIT} on 720p hdmi
-------------------
720p : blanking issue
720p with fix : crop blanking, zoom to fit. Resulted in overscan, slightly less than 1080i.

Now you don't have to deal with blanking but overscan with 720p hdmi in. Apparently Sony did consult HBO on their cropping kill......LOL

Well, no point to figure out timings for 720p anymore if this is the best they can do.

Can you confirm this still? That the image is just blown up to fit the screen? If thats the case, this was a bad fix. Also this would never allow you to get 1:1 mapping!


Back to my Magic Box (DVI to VGA) still!

Still in my opinion the best you can get with the Sony!

- SOWK

My return hs51 from Laredo. Send Monday(03/07/05) via fedex, Received Wednedsay(03/09/04), Returned via overnight from sony(03/16/05)

Here's the negative.

Person that put the projector back in original packaging box deserve a smack!, it was placed backward within the packing material. The len part wasn't seated where it suppose to be, inside a rectangle area so it won't push again the package wall. I was at shocked when i first opened it up. A single minor impact on the box, the len would be long gone...

The fan is now... LOUD, i checked twice make sure it's on low lamp mode and it was. It was whisper quiet before the trip to laredo, to the point i have to put my ear close to the machine and make sure it's running. But now, i could hear darn thing running from 8', that's suck. Who got my unit????, be frank....LOL. How ya guys notice the fan after the fix???

Pixel Re-alignment, I am not happy how it turn out compare to ya guys that got nearly perfect re-alignment. I used to have nearly (left)0.5 and slowly increse to 2.5 to far right. Now i got average of ~1.5>1>~1.5 from left to center to right. Blue is less obvious on right but green stand out good on left. I spoke to juan several occasion while he was upgrading my 51. He mentioned it need only adjustment and it should be just fine. If i would have to send it out and expecting the unexpectable, i would be happy to see it back with ~0.5 pixel. Good thing i didn't spend the overpriced overnight service, it won't be worthed it.

Positive
Sad to say, it's not much what i gained from upgrade. I mentioned my objective is to get the alignment while i am at it but it didn't turn out what i was expecting but did return with nos-equipped turbo fan....:D LOL. Besides, I use HTPC, vga is just fine and i don't care much getting 720p via HDMI from pc or 6412.

Anyway, now that the blanking is gone. it's much easy to compare 720p and 1080i from my moto 6412/PC without the ignoring masking but I don't want to comment on PQ because i have not thoughtly calibrate them...

Let focus on the physical flaw, the fixed version on 720p via hdmi "LOOK" like having same amount of overscan that found in 1080i except it's being V-shift bit left while 080i shift bit further to right. Keep in mind, this is preliminary test i played "24" from 6412. ( if you watch fox network u know what i meant. FOX logo is very close to the corner) I will confirm this with test pattern from htpc later. I mentioned "CROP" and zoom" earlier may not be the technical term to use and i don't want to confuse anyone here and apology if wrong chioce of wording is used. Due to blanking issue it used to have with this PJ with the fix that removed it and overscan that i observed when i first power it up. But this is how it look. Overscan, because usage image from sides not avalibale in the screen. The border of the image extends past the image I see on screen. You have to shift the to get it. Did i get it right?? Anyway, I have question for sony, why overscan?? they already removed the blanking why not just leave like it was before the fix.

So i move on with HTPC 720p/1080 via hdmi. I observed same amount of overscan from 6412. Sony report seeing 720/60p from 6412 and pc with 720p and same for 1080i/60hz. No different between these 2 sources. With VGA playback, i get 1:1 mapping woth report from sony as 1280x720, no changes here. Text is razor sharpe and so as patterns i made and acquired from previous post. But hdmi image LOOK definately larger due to overscan ( byte, is that answer your question??) I forgot to check this over 6412, more thing to do tonight. Desktop on hdmi is same old burring as before, nothing new. I can't get correct timing on PC with PS to resolve the overscan and i will try it again tonight.

Anyway, I just flip to menu page 53-57 this morning, the signal spec. I'll see if i can produce sony recommanded timings for 720p via pc.

Meanwhile, here's is mine. BYTE

Input>>Output
6412-1080i-hdmi>>33.74,59.84,no.7(1080/60)
6412-720p-hdmi>>44.96,59.94,no.10(720/60p)

PC-1080i-hdmi>>33.77,60,no.7(1080i/60)
pc-hdmi-1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20:>>45.08,60.11,no.10(720p/60hz)

pc-vga -1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20:>>45.08,60.07,no.106(1280x720)(computer mode)
pc-vga -1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20:>>45.08,60.07,no.10(my note says "no.10" but i didn't wrote down it's 1280x720 or 720p/60hz)(video mode)

Most of the timings i tweaked, 1080/24, 1184x666, 1280x720...etc all reported from sony as 720/60p. If you see the menu there's a WXGA 60 mode for 1280x720 but it's not avalible for hdmi. Perhaps for component?? which i will try tonight. Can you get new spec from sony if the fix resolve any new particular signal??
I will get you much detail of PC timing later tonight. (I am not 100% confidence with the timings i provided about from PS is correct due to realtime adjustment on constant PS-tweaking but it's in the ball park)

zeroendless,

What kind of video card are you using?

What kind of video card are you using?

Regular 6800, base model.

I used to tweaked ATI 9800 with this PJ and PS before the fix, but no different it makes.

Originally posted by zeroendless
My return hs51 from Laredo. Send Monday(03/07/05) via fedex, Received Wednedsay(03/09/04), Returned via overnight from sony(03/16/05)

Here's the negative.

Person that put the projector back in original packaging box deserve a smack!,

The fan is now... LOUD, that's suck. Who got my unit????, be frank....LOL. How ya guys notice the fan after the fix???

I mentioned my objective is to get the alignment while i am at it but it didn't turn out what i was expecting but did return with nos-equipped turbo fan.... LOL.


@ zeroendless

I almost fell outta my chair when I read "NOS" fan... LOL :)

I'm surprised you didn't pull your hair out!!

To answer your question, my HS51 fan works fine after returning from Laredo. Also, I didn't notice the overscan until I popped in a DVE DVD and used the sharpness pattern. I could clearly see a 2.5% overscan @ 720p on HDMI after the Laredo "fix". No masking though, thankfully.

My pixel alignment is perfect, and I see no discoloration on either side of the projected image . For this alone, I am greatful to Juan or whoever did the work at Laredo.

My pixel alignment is perfect, and I see no discoloration on either side of the projected image . For this alone, I am greatful to Juan or whoever did the work at Laredo.


Juan is a nice guy, i have good time talking to him. He must have overwhelming with the recent upgrade that missed a thing or two. that's ok. I be sending again in the next future but not now. Never know i may get low profile rubber feets, "Xenon" light bulb or after market K&N air filter next time...:D

No it doesn't.

You need to put up an image with the720p VGA-RGB input, and use some masking tape on your screen to mark the position of some reference points. Then switch to 720p HDMI and see how these points change.

Pre-upgrade, but for some horizontal & vertical shift, the point aligned perfectly.

Sorry, but it sounds like you are assuming the image is actually being zoomed between VGA and HDMI inputs. Please confirm.

Actually i did but not with masking tape, I tried to observe the PQ while swicthing between VGA-PC mode and HDMI via HTPC. That's how i found out the larger image observed with 720p hdmi because the 2:35 bar got "smaller" and image is enlarging. Then i pointed my finger to where the bar located, again switching between 2 signal. Same observation........Next i pulled "24" transport file from hdd, play back with TT via vga-pc, 6412-hdmi 1080i, 6412-hdmi 720p, all the logo ain't on the same place. Only vga via pc reveals the whole "FOX" while 6412 got cropped due to overscan

Noted, "24" is 720p natively transport stream, I think we all know that. FYI, when i used H2M to convert "24", it's reporting 720/60p.

Byte, it was almost 1am in the morning and i had 11 hours of long and tired works before the day. But i will confirm that with home grown pattern later tonight that i wasn't dreaming..:D

Originally posted by RoninTech
The launch wasn't delayed. They've been selling them since December here in Canada. Also buying from the US would save some serious $. The issue is if something needs fixing.

Can't you just send it back to the retailer for warranty work in the States. When I get my next projector I plan to go the USA route. On every projector I've looked at (except for Benq) there was a 30-50% saving if buying south of the border. That's after factoring in exchange, taxes, shipping and duty.

When I bought my Panasonic in 2002, I could get it from the states, with all costs factored in, cheaper then a dealer in Canada could get it from their distributor. It's sickening

Sorry for the Off topic post, but this is a huge issue with me.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Regular 6800, base model.

Have you tried the 861B 720p 59.94Hz Timing from the advanced resolution/timing pannel?

Originally posted by zeroendless
My return hs51 from Laredo. Send Monday(03/07/05) via fedex, Received Wednedsay(03/09/04), Returned via overnight from sony(03/16/05)

The fan is now... LOUD, i checked twice make sure it's on low lamp mode and it was. It was whisper quiet before the trip to laredo, to the point i have to put my ear close to the machine and make sure it's running. But now, i could hear darn thing running from 8', that's suck. Who got my unit????, be frank....LOL. How ya guys notice the fan after the fix???

Just a thought, make sure they didn't turn on the high-altitude setting.

It really doesn't matter now as the "fix" now does OVERSCAN on HDMI. NO timing on earth can get 1:1 under overscan!

Though from posted timing "pc-vga -1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20:>>45.08,60.07,no.106(1280x720)(computer mode)" it seems he already use the 861B 720p timing with 1650 total dots.

regards,

Li On

Component and hdmi 720p/1080i confirmed same amount of overscan. if you like to see how they fixed the 720p

Go to Factory mode, "enter", "enter","left","enter" then say yes.
Then select display engine, item 11 TG/HST position and item 12. Shift around and see the "crop and zoom" fix for 720p.

I am done with PS, i have hard time getting them PS work like i want it too on dual display + sony hs51. i couldn't get the timings to work with sony as well, it got to go.

Just a thought, make sure they didn't turn on the high-altitude setting.

You were right! that was my thought while at work trying to figure out any fan control setting on factory mode. Then i remember seen the high attitude mode thingie on the setting somewhere. it was set to on alright! Laredo people sure got some attitude :D

Well, there ya go.

I'll go ahead and prepare an email for my Sony contact, saying thanks but nevermind.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time with false hope.

It's quite a shame hs51 can't do 1:1 mapping via hdmi at this state. i hope at some point iscan hd+ user has an answer for it.

Byte, u didn't waste anyone time here and certainly not mine. For the love of FP, don't give up

Seriously, IMO, even without the perfect 1:1 mapping without the "fix", I think it's still better than the "fix" with Overscan. Maybe some will want to undo the "fix" now! LOL!

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Well, there ya go.

I'll go ahead and prepare an email for my Sony contact, saying thanks but nevermind.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time with false hope.

byte...

Please dont give up, I know I may have been upfront with you, but you have done so much for this forum, I hope you still don't have me on block so you can read this. I, as well as everyone on this forum thank you for taking the lead and helping sony get to know our concerns and getting fixes for our problems. You have been a great member to this forum and I dont ever want to see you fall off. You have very good things to say, as well as being very informative.

Thank you again for your support. It was you who got this fourm to were it is today.

-SOWK

P.S. I think byte still has me on block, so could someone quote this so he can read it!

Not the place. -MP

Originally posted by zeroendless
I am done with PS, i have hard time getting them PS work like i want it too on dual display + sony hs51. i couldn't get the timings to work with sony as well, it got to go.

You were right! that was my thought while at work trying to figure out any fan control setting on factory mode. Then i remember seen the high attitude mode thingie on the setting somewhere. it was set to on alright! Laredo people sure got some attitude :D




@ zeroendless


1) What is PS? Do you mean powerstrip or some new adapter you bought?

2) Did the high altitude setting fix the loud noise on the fan?

3) How is your pixel alignment after returning from Laredo? Was Juan able to tweak the panel for you as well?

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Sony is listening, actually waiting for me to pass along your data and observations.
This seems pretty simple to me. The HS50/51 should accept an EIA/CEA-861-B compliant 720p signal over its HDMI input port and map each of the signal's pixels to one pixel on the projector's imaging element, all without any overscan, cropping, or filtering of the image. Isn't that what everyone's looking for here?

Someone inside Sony ought to know whether the projector does this (or is capable of doing this) or not. If they don't then it's a hopeless case anyway.

Now, if Sony would like to add some user-accessible controls to set cropping and overscan, fine. But they must be easy to access and use, and must have a control position which results in no overscan or cropping. The default control position could even be set so that there is overscan or cropping as long as it's easily negated.

Oh yeah - they should also lower the price by 2/3. :) :)

- Dale Adams

Sorry BYTEHOVEN.

Sony is asking for this info?
So just hook up with our regular source and read out the info for each of the inputs?

I will provide this once I get my HS51 back from TX.

I have a 3910 so I can do HDMI at 720p. I Also have a Roku so I can do VGA and component at 720p.

Bryan

Originally posted by Bytehoven

HTPC, Video Processor or DVD player sync timings:
Horizontal Active Video:
Horizontal Front Porch:
Horizontal Sync:
Horizontal Back Porch:

Vertical Active Video:
Vertical Front Porch:
Vertical Sync:
Vertical Back Porch:


I'd love to give you this Byte but I need someone to tell me how to get this info, as I described in my above post.

1) What is PS? Do you mean powerstrip or some new adapter you bought?
powerstrip

2) Did the high altitude setting fix the loud noise on the fan?
On" change the fan speed, my guess is on the intake because i can hear another fan kick in with high lamp mode while high attitude is turn to on. The answer is yes

3) How is your pixel alignment after returning from Laredo? Was Juan able to tweak the panel for you as well?
I used to have ~0.5(left)slowly increment to ~2.5 to far right and now is averaging ~1 and ~1.5 across the whole screen. Compare to your guys that got nearly perfect "re-alignment", i don't think mine is satisfactory. Well,you got the block replacement, i bet it's good as its get

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Would you consider all of these signals complaint?

720p-hdmi: 1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20_44.96kHz,59.94Hz_(720p/60hz)
720p-hdmi: 1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20_45.08kHz,60.11Hz_(720p/60hz)
720p-hdmi: 1280,45,110,40,220,720,60,6,6,20_45.02kHz,60.00Hz_(720p/60hz)
None of them are.

I'm not sure what the "45" and "60" stand for in the comma-separated string of values (or where these strings of values come from). Are these the approximate horizontal and vertical scan rates?

There are only two '60 Hz' 720p formats - one for 59.94 Hz and one for 60.00 Hz. Both of these use the same number of clocks/line and lines/frame. The main problem with the timings you've listed (outside of the oddball 60.11 Hz entry) is that the vertical front porch and sync are both supposed to be 5 lines, not 6 lines as you have them listed. The total number of lines per frame for 720p is 750, not 752.

The pixel clock rate for a 59.94 Hz signal is supposed to be 74.175 MHz with a horizontal scan rate of 44.955 kHz. The pixel clock rate for a 60.00 Hz signal is supposed to be 74.25 MHz with a horizontal scan rate of 45.000 kHz.

- Dale Adams

My guess on the timing number. 45 is horizontal scanning frequency which should be around 45Khz. 60 is the vertical refresh rate. The horizontal total dots seems right at 1280+110+40+220 (active+front/back+sync+front/back)=1650. Vertical seems off by 2 lines as the number suggested 720+6+6+20=752.

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by RoninTech
I'd love to give you this Byte but I need someone to tell me how to get this info, as I described in my above post.

It's quite easy to do. Just right-click on your desktop, and then click properties. Click on the Advanced Timings button which I highlighted for you below. Easy.


http://img236.exs.cx/img236/9892/desktop5cm.th.jpg (http://img236.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img236&image=desktop5cm.jpg)

Originally posted by Rieper
It's quite easy to do. Just right-click on your desktop, and then click properties. Click on the Advanced Timings button which I conveniently highlighted for you below.

I'll have another look to see if my "ASUS Radeon 9700XT" ATI driver based card has a similar feature.

Originally posted by RoninTech
I'll have another look to see if my "ASUS Radeon 9700XT" ATI driver based card has a similar feature.

Make sure you're using the latest ATI drivers:

Windows XP Drivers and Software
(https://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894&task=knowledge&folderID=27)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rieper
[B]It's quite easy to do. Just right-click on your desktop, and then click properties. Click on the Advanced Timings button which I highlighted for you below. Easy.


Rieper,
Sorry for my ignorance but, do I just hook up my laptop to the HS51 and right click on desktop?
Thanks!

Originally posted by srolon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rieper
[B]It's quite easy to do. Just right-click on your desktop, and then click properties. Click on the Advanced Timings button which I highlighted for you below. Easy.


Rieper,
Sorry for my ignorance but, do I just hook up my laptop to the HS51 and right click on desktop?
Thanks!


Sure, just right-click on desktop and click 'properties'. Once in properties, click 'Settings' and then 'Advanced' tabs. Then click on your videocard display tab. You should be fine from that point.

Make sure to have your laptop set for 1280x720 resolution in display properties when connecting to HS51.

Just installed the Latest XP Catalyst drivers (5.3) and then the Rage3D tweak interface. I'm stil not seeing anywhere that shows the info Byte is looking for.

Any here using Radeon video cards in your HTPC's and know where to get this info?

My guess on the timing number. 45 is horizontal scanning frequency which should be around 45Khz. 60 is the vertical refresh rate. The horizontal total dots seems right at 1280+110+40+220 (active+front/back+sync+front/back)=1650. Vertical seems off by 2 lines as the number suggested 720+6+6+20=752.

You got it and the 6+6 is typo, should be 5+5 which doesn't solve the problem on hs51 either.

NOTE : 44.96kHz,59.94Hz_(720p/60hz) is the report from hs51 how it sees the signal. NOT PC timing.

Originally posted by RoninTech
Just installed the Latest XP Catalyst drivers (5.3) and then the Rage3D tweak interface. I'm stil not seeing anywhere that shows the info Byte is looking for.

Any here using Radeon video cards in your HTPC's and know where to get this info?

OK, I just downloaded and installed Powerstrip which shows me:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/7423000hs50_powerstrip-thumb.jpg (http://gallery.avsforum.com/uploads/7423000/hs50_powerstrip.jpg)

So to summarize:

HS-50 Info Menu:
fH : 45.02kHz
fV : 60.00Hz
No.10 Yes
720/60p Yes

HS-51/50 SIGNAL Menu adjustments for VGA computer mode:
Dot Phase: 21
H size: 1664

HTPC, Video Processor or DVD player sync timings:
Horizontal Active Video: 1280
Horizontal Front Porch: 112
Horizontal Sync: 40
Horizontal Back Porch: 216
H Total: 1648

Vertical Active Video: 720
Vertical Front Porch: 5
Vertical Sync: 5
Vertical Back Porch: 20
V TOtal: 750

Refresh/Frame Rate:

Scan Rate: 45.055 kHz
Refresh Rate: 60.073 Hz

I have been busy working so no time in the theater, I will check my numbers tonite.

You know I have to agree with Dale that I don't see what difference any of this really makes since I can put just about any particular 720p timing in there and the Sony will do its thing treating it as 720p with blanking, cropping, whatever. None gets rid of it so what use could this info have?

Brian

Originally posted by usabrian
I have been busy working so no time in the theater, I will check my numbers tonite.

You know I have to agree with Dale that I don't see what difference any of this really makes since I can put just about any particular 720p timing in there and the Sony will do its thing treating it as 720p with blanking, cropping, whatever. None gets rid of it so what use could this info have?

Brian

I'm hoping to hear what the numbers are using the IScan and then recreate them with the HTPC. In theory, shouldn't that at least get rid of the processed look as the IScan users are proclaiming?

So to summarize:

HS-50 Info Menu:
fH : 45.02kHz
fV : 60.00Hz
No.10 Yes
720/60p Yes

HS-51/50 SIGNAL Menu adjustments for VGA computer mode:
Dot Phase: 21
H size: 1664

If PC-VGA>vga cable >Hs51 with COMPUTER MODE, you should see 1280x720 (NO. 106)... not 720/60(No. 10). 720/60 is the problematic one. Make sure you are not in Video mode or hdmi in

I love to see what's sony seeing for those who is using DVI-VGA convertor from a dedicated STB or DVD.

Originally posted by zeroendless
If PC-VGA>vga cable >Hs51 with COMPUTER MODE, you should see 1280x720 (NO. 106)... not 720/60(No. 10). 720/60 is the problematic one. Make sure you are not in Video mode or hdmi in

Zero, the Powerstrip settings are for HDMI. My VGA looks great. I thought we were looking at the HDMI settings to maybe see why it doesn't look as good compared to IScan's?

Anyhoodle, for VGA, my HS50 info menu shows:

fH 44.83 kHz
fV 59.91 Hz
No 56
1280x720

This is the same for Computer or Auto Input A mode. I have a noob question. The powerstrip advanced info doesn't change whether I'm in VGA or HDMI. Should they be different?

I really havent read whats been going on, but are you guys still trying to get 1:1 mapping thru HDMI?

Whats whit all the Power Striping? And the Timming posts?

I just need a general idea!

and Zeroendless, I will try to post my Sony Timmings for my Bravo D2 from the DVI to VGA!

Not sure if that will help you at all!

Only for those without the "fix" :D

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by Li On
Only for those without the "fix" :D

regards,

Li On

I though the fix, was broken?

Again if there is overscan even the fix can't be 1:1 mapping!

well, my little $100 dvi-vga converter is working like a champ.

i have used 3 different dvd players with my HS50 so far,

Samsung HD1000 - 1080i/component
Panasonic A-120 - 480i/component
Bravo D2 - 480p/component, 480p,1080i/HDMI, and 720p/VGA

the samsung looked great but had other problems so that got sent back. used my trusty panny for a while, and while it defineately couldn't compete with the samsung, it wasn't as big of a difference as i was expecting. then the bravo d2. while awaiting cables and converter, used 480p through component. what a terrible picture. i'd say the pic quality was on par with the panny overall, but for whatever reason i was getting a fluttering or waving on top of the image. almost couldn't watch it. i then got my dvi cable along with dvi/hdmi adapter. watched a few reference dvds that are not only reference looking, but i have seen them so many times, i feel they are my references as to what i want to see. HDMI looked great, better than anything i had thrown at the projector so far. much more digital looking, but then realized i had to go and recalibrate everything, including sharpness. once done the image looked even better, but there was still some ringing on the image. not as bad as component, but it was there. this has become my new pet peeve. then my adapter for dvi-vga comes in and i swap everything out. i used various 16x9 dvds to determine if the pic is all there and came up with an H-size of 1656. the projector says #103 1280 x 720, 60.00Hz. the image is then centered to 237 H 22 V. secrets said the bravo doesn't crop any pixels, and apparently the converter i bought doesn't either as the projector confirms 1280x720, so i'm pretty confident i'm getting 1:1. so how does it look? amazing! i think it is a big step up from 1080i HDMI from the bravo. also, the ringing is reduced greatly. still some there on certain dvds where before it was most if not all dvds. other than that, detail, detail, detail! i have worked as a projectionist at a local theater, and have watched many of the movies i got to run and watch 10 times, and can say i'm seeing the same thing i saw in the theater. and some details i didn't know were there. everything looks awesome, and without the overscan, i'm getting perfect OAR everytime. not if someone could make a dvd, that can test for 1:1 when upscaled to 720p.

eric

Originally posted by ericeash
well, my little $100 dvi-vga converter is working like a champ.

i have used 3 different dvd players with my HS50 so far,

Samsung HD1000 - 1080i/component
Panasonic A-120 - 480i/component
Bravo D2 - 480p/component, 480p,1080i/HDMI, and 720p/VGA

the samsung looked great but had other problems so that got sent back. used my trusty panny for a while, and while it defineately couldn't compete with the samsung, it wasn't as big of a difference as i was expecting. then the bravo d2. while awaiting cables and converter, used 480p through component. what a terrible picture. i'd say the pic quality was on par with the panny overall, but for whatever reason i was getting a fluttering or waving on top of the image. almost couldn't watch it. i then got my dvi cable along with dvi/hdmi adapter. watched a few reference dvds that are not only reference looking, but i have seen them so many times, i feel they are my references as to what i want to see. HDMI looked great, better than anything i had thrown at the projector so far. much more digital looking, but then realized i had to go and recalibrate everything, including sharpness. once done the image looked even better, but there was still some ringing on the image. not as bad as component, but it was there. this has become my new pet peeve. then my adapter for dvi-vga comes in and i swap everything out. i used various 16x9 dvds to determine if the pic is all there and came up with an H-size of 1656. the projector says #103 1280 x 720, 60.00Hz. the image is then centered to 237 H 22 V. secrets said the bravo doesn't crop any pixels, and apparently the converter i bought doesn't either as the projector confirms 1280x720, so i'm pretty confident i'm getting 1:1. so how does it look? amazing! i think it is a big step up from 1080i HDMI from the bravo. also, the ringing is reduced greatly. still some there on certain dvds where before it was most if not all dvds. other than that, detail, detail, detail! i have worked as a projectionist at a local theater, and have watched many of the movies i got to run and watch 10 times, and can say i'm seeing the same thing i saw in the theater. and some details i didn't know were there. everything looks awesome, and without the overscan, i'm getting perfect OAR everytime. not if someone could make a dvd, that can test for 1:1 when upscaled to 720p.

eric

Please PM me the model DVI to VGA you have!

Originally posted by ericeash
well, my little $100 dvi-vga converter is working like a champ.

i have used 3 different dvd players with my HS50 so far,

Samsung HD1000 - 1080i/component
Panasonic A-120 - 480i/component
Bravo D2 - 480p/component, 480p,1080i/HDMI, and 720p/VGA

the samsung looked great but had other problems so that got sent back. used my trusty panny for a while, and while it defineately couldn't compete with the samsung, it wasn't as big of a difference as i was expecting. then the bravo d2. while awaiting cables and converter, used 480p through component. what a terrible picture. i'd say the pic quality was on par with the panny overall, but for whatever reason i was getting a fluttering or waving on top of the image. almost couldn't watch it. i then got my dvi cable along with dvi/hdmi adapter. watched a few reference dvds that are not only reference looking, but i have seen them so many times, i feel they are my references as to what i want to see. HDMI looked great, better than anything i had thrown at the projector so far. much more digital looking, but then realized i had to go and recalibrate everything, including sharpness. once done the image looked even better, but there was still some ringing on the image. not as bad as component, but it was there. this has become my new pet peeve. then my adapter for dvi-vga comes in and i swap everything out. i used various 16x9 dvds to determine if the pic is all there and came up with an H-size of 1656. the projector says #103 1280 x 720, 60.00Hz. the image is then centered to 237 H 22 V. secrets said the bravo doesn't crop any pixels, and apparently the converter i bought doesn't either as the projector confirms 1280x720, so i'm pretty confident i'm getting 1:1. so how does it look? amazing! i think it is a big step up from 1080i HDMI from the bravo. also, the ringing is reduced greatly. still some there on certain dvds where before it was most if not all dvds. other than that, detail, detail, detail! i have worked as a projectionist at a local theater, and have watched many of the movies i got to run and watch 10 times, and can say i'm seeing the same thing i saw in the theater. and some details i didn't know were there. everything looks awesome, and without the overscan, i'm getting perfect OAR everytime. not if someone could make a dvd, that can test for 1:1 when upscaled to 720p.

eric

What is this "ringing" you keep mentioning? Sounds like Edge Enhancement, which has nothing to do with the HS51. Please clarify, and note the DVDs which you experience the "ringing" artifacts on.

Thanks for your input. By the way, which adapter are you using? PM me if necessary.

no need for PMs, a guy by the name of moome makes them. he's a member of the board and sells on audiogon. the one i have is not HDCP complient, but he hopes to have a license for it soon. he also mentioned the converter he sent me has an EMI bug with the DVI input and he is sending me a replacement, but i have observed zero problems so far. the ringing i have experienced is probably comparable to EE, but over component, it also appears on stuff like dvd player menus, dvd menus, etc., which is why i ruled that out. i watched Fifth Element Superbit and could see a huge amount of ringing on certain scenes, and i thought that was supposed to be one of the best transfers ever. i will have to rewatch it now vga. i know there is a difference between ringing and EE, but i can't remember what it was. i think that ringing is poor processing in the source, cables, and/or display, and EE is on the dvd. i'd invite someone over to see and tell me what they think, but i live in japan. also might have something to do with japanese power being 100v/50Hz.

eric

Dan Francis reviews it. Interesting on/off CR.

http://www.digitalaudiovideo.com/reviews/sonyvplhs51_review.shtml

Thread in $3,500 forum

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=521910

Sowk and ericeash:

Could you guys post some pics comparing your VGA vs. HDMI with high def and dvd sources?

If you don't own a digital camera, could you try to borrow one? My picture on my HS-51 is pretty darn nice and I am wondering how much room there is for improvement.

Thanks in advance.

i'll see what i can do, but i'm not sure if you could appreciate the difference in screenshots that i take with a borrowed camera.

eric

Originally posted by zeroendless
1) What is PS? Do you mean powerstrip or some new adapter you bought?
powerstrip

2) Did the high altitude setting fix the loud noise on the fan?
On" change the fan speed, my guess is on the intake because i can hear another fan kick in with high lamp mode while high attitude is turn to on. The answer is yes

3) How is your pixel alignment after returning from Laredo? Was Juan able to tweak the panel for you as well?
I used to have ~0.5(left)slowly increment to ~2.5 to far right and now is averaging ~1 and ~1.5 across the whole screen. Compare to your guys that got nearly perfect "re-alignment", i don't think mine is satisfactory. Well,you got the block replacement, i bet it's good as its get

I don;t know if I am alone here, but when I decide to get my hs51 in the next couple of weeks, if there a hint of misalingment, and I don't get it resolved from a visit to Laredo, that sucker is going back to the store i got it from, fast. I would not get stuck with a faulty image.. no way.

2 cents,
F.

I don;t know if I am alone here, but when I decide to get my hs51 in the next couple of weeks, if there a hint of misalingment, and I don't get it resolved from a visit to Laredo, that sucker is going back to the store i got it from, fast. I would not get stuck with a faulty image.. no way.

Yes, that would be. Get over LCD then. You should look for DLP

Originally posted by dvectord
Sowk and ericeash:

Could you guys post some pics comparing your VGA vs. HDMI with high def and dvd sources?

If you don't own a digital camera, could you try to borrow one? My picture on my HS-51 is pretty darn nice and I am wondering how much room there is for improvement.

Thanks in advance.

I'll see what I can do as I do have this week off of work!

my alignment is still not perfect. i'm going to call sony japan and see if they can replace the prism block. other than that, i watched my first 1.85:1 movie tonight, Napolean Dynamite. although i've watched it before on this setup, only now that i've got 1:1 is it OAR. before i had 16:9 and scope. now, i have OAR on all films. i haven't tried it yet, but i've even got some 1.66:1 dvds that i'm sure now will have bars on the sides. sweet!

my update.

I sent my hs51 in to Juan at Laredo. By the way, Juan does not do any of the work on the projectors himself, but he was very helpful and attentive on the phone with me. I sent in my projector because I needed the 720p fix and for alignment. When the projector was finished on Friday, Juan overnighted it back to me with Saturday delivery, so I got it back yesterday. I put it back up on the ceiling and got it all set up for a family screening of "The Incredibles" last night. And that's what the hs51 is, Incredible! Before the wife and kids came in, I looked at the newly fixed 720p and compared it to the 1080i (i'm using the sony 975 dvd player via hdmi) The 720p now looked great with no border, but I still prefer the 1080i. The difference is probably very small, but my sense is that the 1080i is the most "film like." The big difference is with the alignment that was done at Laredo, the image is now absolutely perfect. Of course, it was very close before, but now it is right on the money perfect.

I can't remember if it was here on the forum or in a review of the sony, but somebody said that the hs51 is a projector that is So Good that you forget it's there and you are left to enjoy the movie. That's how I felt last night. I got so caught up in enjoying the movie. Of course, like most of us electronics enthusiasts would do, I did pull my mind back out of the movie a few times to marvel at how beautiful an image the sony was producing and how happy I was to have sent it in to Laredo for the tweaks. Last night, my home theater dream was really fulfilled. The image and sound all worked together in pristine harmony. And the greatest gift is that my family enjoyed it as much as I did. Even my wife can't wait to watch dvd's in the theater. For me, this has made the whole journey of putting together a home theater worth every moment and every penny.

By the way for those interested or starting to plan a home theater of your own, my modest little theater is 21 feet long, 10 feet wide and has a 7 foot high ceiling. I have the sony ceiling mounted, very close to the ceiling. I totally covered the two windows, so there is total light control. The ceiling and wall behind the screen are painted black and the other walls are very dark blue. The carpet is black. The screen is a 100 inch diag. Carada Brilliant White. The sound is Pioneer receiver, Boston Acoustic speakers except for the center speaker which is Ascend Acoustics and the sub which is a HSU.

Good luck to all with your theaters and enjoy!

Larry

Blanking on The Yamaha DX1200

From gregr's WSR review

"Except for some blanking along the
edges of the frame, the DPX-1200 produces
a spatially “pixel perfect” image when its
HDMI input is driven by 720p digital video
signals. ... However, there are
two blank pixel columns (vertical lines) on
both the left and right sides of the screen,
and three blank pixel rows (horizontal lines)
at the bottom of the screen. There are no
horizontal or vertical position adjustments
for HDMI (or DVI) signals to make the blank
pixels visible"

Please check out this post and try to help us out. (Post #91)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5357658#post5357658

Thanks,

I'm not too much of a technical expert when it comes to projectors but I come here to try and learn about them as much as I can. I'm currently in the process of ordering an HS51 but am concerned about the issues everyone is talking about. I use a HTPC, and was planning on hooking it up via a DVI>HDMI cable, but from readin some posts here it sounds like there isn't a way to get 1x1 pixel mapping with this solution. I have heard you guys mentioning using vga but I dont see a vga input specified on the spec for the projector, are you guys talking about using vga through an iscan HD? If so, is that currently the only way to get 1x1 pixel mapping with a htpc with this projector?

Marshmonkey
The Input A uses a HD15 (VGA) connector.

'm not too much of a technical expert when it comes to projectors but I come here to try and learn about them as much as I can. I'm currently in the process of ordering an HS51 but am concerned about the issues everyone is talking about. I use a HTPC, and was planning on hooking it up via a DVI>HDMI cable, but from readin some posts here it sounds like there isn't a way to get 1x1 pixel mapping with this solution. I have heard you guys mentioning using vga but I dont see a vga input specified on the spec for the projector, are you guys talking about using vga through an iscan HD? If so, is that currently the only way to get 1x1 pixel mapping with a htpc with this projector?

You are fine, HTPC with VGA is as sweet as can be. I stop trying after hours of tweaking with timings and unless someone found a magic number for HTPC>hdmi, I say vga is the only way to get 1:1 mapping for now. I spoke for HTPC but not all sources........

( Remember to select computer mode, set APA to on then apply it to the point you are satified with it then set it off).

yay! I'm so happy then : )

I can't wait to get mine and get it set up. I'm upgrading from my first pj, a pj551 viewsonic 1024x768 lcd with a contrast ratio of 400:1. I cant wait to have my blacks actually be black : )

also, any reccomendations for online vendors from people who have already order thiers?

Originally posted by marshmonkey
yay! I'm so happy then : )

I can't wait to get mine and get it set up. I'm upgrading from my first pj, a pj551 viewsonic 1024x768 lcd with a contrast ratio of 400:1. I cant wait to have my blacks actually be black : )

You are so fortunate to be starting off with the HS51. I began with an InFocus X1. Great little projector, but nowhere near the class of my HS51.

Congrats on a wise choice (HS51).

Heys guys, just a quick one. Thought I'd post this for any UK users out there..good news from Sony.

"Thank you for your email, I apologise for the very long delay in replying.

Following our investigation of this issue, I am pleased to advise that a
service solution is available to reduce the amount of blanking you are
experiencing when using your VPL-HS50. The projector should be returned to
either the supplying retailer or a Sony Authorised Service Centre so that
arrangements can be made for this servicing to happen. Please provide a
description of the problem and also have the original proof of purchase
available."

Ya favor cine4home just posted the overscan (http://cine4home.com/tests/projektoren/SonyVPLHS50/Update2.htm) pattern on 1080i/720p/576 with new firmware.

I have read some posts about pixelalignment. In what way does pixel(dis)alignment hurt the picture? Will it cause some loss in sharpness? Or does it result in double silhouettes or something like that?

Originally posted by Starred
I have read some posts about pixelalignment. In what way does pixel(dis)alignment hurt the picture? Will it cause some loss in sharpness? Or does it result in double silhouettes or something like that?

Best way I can describe it is color is out of whack. What I mean is, I can clearly see a red tint on the left side and a greenish tint to the image on the right side of the screen.

When I received my projector back from Laredo, color was perfect. I detected no signs of any tint color out of place.

Rieper, is there a quantitative way to test misalignment? Is there a test pattern one can use?

Laredo is almost in Mexico...

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&address=&city=&state=TX&zipcode=78045

look at the menu screen with the back ground set to black (change it from blue to black in menu setup) if you see blueish or red or green on the edges of the text and or boxes its probably misaligned(you can also use the image flip to see if the discolored edges are in the same place or if they flip with the picture). but if the picture from regular viewing doesnt bother you i wouldnt go looking for it. for me it bothered me cause i felt like it was a little fuzzing and gave me sort of an eye strain while watching. jeff

Jeff, on VGA I have not noticed anything, but when I had component input from LVD 2001, at 720p, noticed some ghosting, more like a phase issue. I guess if I display a bunch of black vertical lines on a white background, if I don't see crisp lines, then I know. I don't think I am going to go looking for it, especially if 720p fix does not work and can't get 1:1 pixel mapping with DVI.

Does anyone know beyond what serial numbers the problem was fixed? I had to send my first projector in for replacement due to a blob on the left side 2/3 to the right and 2/3 up the screen!!!

I've bought a new HS-50 (no fix, rom version 1.01) last Wednesday. Don't have my screen yet (ordered HighPower) so I'm using some white fabric in the mean time. My DVD player is a non progressive Toshiba using component cable. This is obviously not an ideal setup but nevertheless the image is pretty good.

This week-end I've hooked up an old Mac G3 using a cheap VGA cable (20$ for 25 ft) and noticed that the grayscale was far from perfect. Using a gray pattern, there's a reddish tint on the right part of the screen and greenish on the left. I've tried hooking up my PC laptop and noticed the same problem. Not sure if the cheap cable could in cause or maybe a panel misalignment...

Anyone have seen this ?

Well, Rieper just answered my question while I was typing this. I surely have pixel misalignment :-(

dr00w:

Your problem is not misalignment, it is a problem with color uniformity (also called shading). All LCDs and LCos have the potential to have this problem to varying degrees. Most of the newer units have greatly minimized it.

Try to get a look at another machine to see if it is better than yours. You might want to send yours back. There is a way to adjust this via the factory menu, but it's very tedious, and will take you hours to do it. If it's unacceptable, send it back. If you watch a lot of B&W, it will be very annoying.

Pip

Pip:

Thanks for the info. I don't watch a lot of B&W movies but simply looking at the Mac OS interface (metal apps like iTunes) leaves a bad impression. I have 30 days money back protection so I'll wait 1-2 weeks to see if Sony Canada will react on the blanking issue before making a decision.

question,,
i have the sony hs51 , dalite motorized screen, and purchased the screen interface,,, however the projector does not supply enough courrent for the relay to close,,, how is everyone in here, with the same setup , getting around this??

Greetings,


I currently have a Sony HS10. I love my HS10, however it does have it's short comings. I realize that the HS51 is also not a perfect projector. On the other hand the HS51 does have strengths that the HS10 does not and that is the reason I will be upgrading.

I have a 92" Da-lite High Contrast Cinemavision screen. The HCCV uses gray screen material with a gain of either 1.1 or 1.3 ( I can't remember ). My HS10 is flush ceiling mounted using the Chief RPA 2131 mount, mounted at a distance of 13.5 feet. The center of the lense is even with the top of my screen and I have no offset or require keystone correction.

For those with the HS51 setup similarly to mine other than changing the distance ( moving it closer due to the shorter throw ) will I be able to mount the new unit in exactly the same way?

Using my screen in a room that is fairly light controlled ( I have black out shades covering two windows, however during the day there is a minimal amount of light in the rear of the room ) will I be able to achieve a reasonably bright image?

Thanks in advance to all !!


Regards,

Originally posted by CARLOS3621
question,,
i have the sony hs51 , dalite motorized screen, and purchased the screen interface,,, however the projector does not supply enough courrent for the relay to close,,, how is everyone in here, with the same setup , getting around this??


I posted this question a while back as well. The Dalite interface (assuming you have the 12 V interface which is the correct one to use with the HS51) requires 200 mA of current to trigger the screen. The HS51 manual states that it can source 12V with a 4.7KOhm output impedance implying that it can drive 2.5 mA of current, about 1/100 of the current needed to trigger the relay in the Dalite interface. I bought a very low current relay (1.2 mA) with a 12V assist and the Sony still could not trigger this relay. After testing my HS51, I discovered it can drive only about 1.0 mA of current. Since I had already bought the relay and made a small box to put it in, along with mini-jack connectors etc., I put a transistor circuit at the front of the relay. It all works fine now.

I have no idea why Sony put such an anemic trigger on the projector. How hard would it have been to put in a 20mA trigger? Absolutely ridiculous. Let me know if you want details on what I used and I can provide it.

One more thing, the projector doesn't turn off the trigger when you first power off the projector. It only turns off the trigger after the fan has cooled down the bulb for a minute or two.

Nas

THANKS FOR THE REPLY NAS,
id apprectiate if you could tell me specifically how you fixed yours,
i also bought a smaller 12volt solid state relay, with a 1 amp 12volt supply for the screen interface relay,, and came up with the same results as u did.. still not enough from the projector to latch the small solid state relay!!!!

thanks

Originally posted by Pip
dr00w:

Your problem is not misalignment, it is a problem with color uniformity (also called shading). All LCDs and LCos have the potential to have this problem to varying degrees. Most of the newer units have greatly minimized it.
If you have a lot of time and patience, the HS-51 does have an adjustment for color uniformity. See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5068315&highlight=uniformity#post5068315) in the tweak thread.

I've been on vacation and off the web for a week. Lots of good new info. Dissappointing news about the 720P fix resulting in overscan, but not too surprising given Sony's reputation for it. I went through the web page posted by Bytehoven to send my HS-51 in and it certainly isn't fast. I shipped my unit to the provided San Diego address before leaving on March 14. From where I live it should have arrived there in 2-3 days. I finally received an Email on Mar 21 indicating that they had received it. Hopefully it won't take too long once they start working on it.

jschefdog:

Thanks. Sounds overwhelming (9009 different values) but I may give it a try this weekend.

Hello All: I had the HS51 up and running using an 82 inch GreyHawk RS screen and DVDO HD+. All of my components go into the DVDO and then I have a DVI out to the HDMI in on the Sony. This is my first front projector. As I was reading through the forum and discovered that some owners were returning their units for upgrades. Overall, I think that the picture quality is good. But I did check the software version: I have the original software...1.01. I guess my questions is: What will the new software upgrade to for me???? Thank you for your support.

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
Hello All: I had the HS51 up and running using an 82 inch GreyHawk RS screen and DVDO HD+. All of my components go into the DVDO and then I have a DVI out to the HDMI in on the Sony. This is my first front projector. As I was reading through the forum and discovered that some owners were returning their units for upgrades. Overall, I think that the picture quality is good. But I did check the software version: I have the original software...1.01. I guess my questions is: What will the new software upgrade to for me???? Thank you for your support.

You need to try outputting from the iScanHD+ using VGA. Set your VPL-HS51 to Input-A Computer and I doubt you will ever use the HDMI input connection again.

Gary

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
Hello All: I had the HS51 up and running using an 82 inch GreyHawk RS screen and DVDO HD+. All of my components go into the DVDO and then I have a DVI out to the HDMI in on the Sony. This is my first front projector. As I was reading through the forum and discovered that some owners were returning their units for upgrades. Overall, I think that the picture quality is good. But I did check the software version: I have the original software...1.01. I guess my questions is: What will the new software upgrade to for me???? Thank you for your support.

You need to try outputting from the iScanHD+ using VGA. Set your VPL-HS51 to Input-A Computer and I doubt you will ever use the HDMI input connection again.

Gary

Hello Gary: Thank you for your reply. The picture looks good now. I thought that HDMI was the way to go.???...being all digital??? What will VGA do and how does it differ from HDMI. I guess I've been told that HDMI is the wave of the future????? Thats why I bought the $$$ DVI >> HDMI cable....Just a bit confused.

Is the lens shift adjustment suppose to be loose. I mean when turning the knobs I have to make a couple of turns before anything happens. Is this normal behavior?

The "word" is that VGA is sharper and provides 1:1 pixel map. The sony fix only overscans/zooms the image vs the stock masking. I'm going to A/B them myself (HDMI vs VGA) then go from there.

Originally posted by dr00w
Is the lens shift adjustment suppose to be loose. I mean when turning the knobs I have to make a couple of turns before anything happens. Is this normal behavior?

Mines the same way, but always moves to the outter extremities. Just lower quality tracking/optics. Usually once you hit the max / min. shift position then I have to turn it a bit before it picks back up.

dr00w, mine does exactly the same thing. Seems to be fine though, works a treat. Very handy.

Thanks guys. I guess this is normal. Feels a bit on the cheap side though :-)

Gary...thanks.....so I would need to purchase another cable to go from the DVDO to the HS51. When you say A/B them. Is it possible to still leave the DVI to HDMI cable and compare the two. For give me i'm new to this. I did research prior to buying the HS51 and went with what my local dealer had displayed. Will the fix add any value for me? As I said....watching movies and HDTV looks good for now.......

I've just been looking at the cine4home link about the fix for the hs50/51. I can't quite work out what they're showing. Is the 576 & 1080i worse for the fix? And, I may have missed this already, is the 720p signal still not correct ie not 1:1?

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
Hello Gary: Thank you for your reply. The picture looks good now. I thought that HDMI was the way to go.???...being all digital??? What will VGA do and how does it differ from HDMI. I guess I've been told that HDMI is the wave of the future????? Thats why I bought the $$$ DVI >> HDMI cable....Just a bit confused.

IN theory HDMI should be the way to go except Sony only provides 1:1 pixel mapping when using InputA Computer VGA.

With the iScanHD+ you can connect both VGA out and DVI-HDMI at the same time. Then simpy switch between INPUTA and HDMI on the projector remote control and judge the difference between the two.

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
Gary...thanks.....so I would need to purchase another cable to go from the DVDO to the HS51. When you say A/B them. Is it possible to still leave the DVI to HDMI cable and compare the two. For give me i'm new to this. I did research prior to buying the HS51 and went with what my local dealer had displayed. Will the fix add any value for me? As I said....watching movies and HDTV looks good for now.......

No special cable required from DVDO. Purchase a standard VGA male to VGA male available at any computer store.

I however did purchase a highend cable from http://www.bettercables.com

I'm glad everyone is jumping on the band wagon.

VGA is the only way to go if you want a "perfect" picture from the Sony HS51.

Now notice I said "perfect" (aka, the best possible pic quality), and not acceptible.

You can get an acceptible picture from the other inputs.

-SOWK

Originally posted by Sony HS51
I'm glad everyone is jumping on the band wagon.

VGA is the only way to go if you want a "perfect" picture from the Sony HS51.

Now notice I said "perfect" (aka, the best possible pic quality), and not acceptible.

You can get an acceptible picture from the other inputs.

-SOWK

Well I jumped on wayyyy back!

My current bulb hours is over 650. Anyone else have that many hours yet?

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
Gary...thanks.....so I would need to purchase another cable to go from the DVDO to the HS51. When you say A/B them. Is it possible to still leave the DVI to HDMI cable and compare the two. For give me i'm new to this. I did research prior to buying the HS51 and went with what my local dealer had displayed. Will the fix add any value for me? As I said....watching movies and HDTV looks good for now.......

WMCLAREN, you could help this forum out tremendously. Bytehoven had previously posted that he got perfect pixel to pixel mapping via 720p and hdmi using the Iscan. To my knowledge, nobody else has been able to do this and Byte does not own the Iscan anymore so he cannot take pictures to show that its possible. Would it be possible for you to put up some patterns and take close pictures of the Iscan outputting via VGA and HDMI to the Sony at 720p?

Brian

I wouldn't mind at all...but I don't have the VGA cable yet.....nor have I returned the HS51 for the software upgrade. I haven't really played with ISCAN test patterns or even really know what they do....I purchased the DVE DVD.....played with it a little....but see very very little before and after difference. As noted,,,,this is my first FP....so I'm a little confused on what to expect. Currently with my DVI to HDMI connection... all looks fine. What is blanking? Overscan etc.....I don't see anything strange on my screen....Confused. If I could get help...I wouldn't mind at all posting my findings...

Originally posted by usabrian
WMCLAREN, you could help this forum out tremendously. Bytehoven had previously posted that he got perfect pixel to pixel mapping via 720p and hdmi using the Iscan. To my knowledge, nobody else has been able to do this and Byte does not own the Iscan anymore so he cannot take pictures to show that its possible. Would it be possible for you to put up some patterns and take close pictures of the Iscan outputting via VGA and HDMI to the Sony at 720p?

Brian

Bytehoven:
Assuming the above quote is correct regarding achieving perfect pixel to pixel mapping via HDMI 720p.....

The iScan provides a Frame and Geometry 1-pixel wide box around the very outside of the image. Where you able to see the 1 pixel wide pattern around the entire perimeter?

SOWK! Stick to the SOWK account! PM Alan if you have any issues with some of your IP accounts from the SOWK membership. I do not want to see you using 2 membership accounts anymore.

Kyser

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Not everyone is jumping on the wagon.

Some of us with uncompromised sources, are quite able to achieve a perfect picture from the HDMI input.
........

And I thought any DVD player without SDI was a compromise.

Switching to 1080i, or 720p VGA in the RGB color space, removes this blaking border.

Switching to 1080i, removed blanking but overscan. The 720p via vga however, can be 1:1 with hs51's apa or manual adjustment on the timing from the source.

The Sony 720p update, removed the black border on all of the inputs I mentioned. But it not yet clear exactly how they did it, and what effect it has on the presentation of a standard 720 HDMI signal. It looks zoomed to fit, as suggested by the images posted. But it's not clear how it changed the way a 720p source is mapped or if the pixel mapping I observed from the Iscan HD is lost.

Byte, I have high hope sony can fix the overscan. I posted observation with service menu shifting how it was cropped and zoomed and the pixel is lost.... that may be just the function to move/shift screen position. If you shift the image using standard menu, you can see the available overscan image. Simple observation can be done with "fox" logo via 6412 compainted 720p compare to 1:1 mapping vga in. Why they do that, i have no clue. Probably a quick solution for to get around the blanking is better than overscan. See..... how many users here know it's being overscanned.

Well I hate to get this thread off topic from all the talk about VGA, 1:1 and such but I wanted to give my report on the fix. I have had my PJ for a while and wanted to watch and make sure everything had sunk in. For anyone using the HS51 without a HTPC, the fix is exactly as advertised. It just gets rid of the blanking issue. 720p now displays exactly the same overscan as 1080i for me which is about 2.5%. Sony had not touched my settings or calibrations. All were left intact. I am really thinking it is placebo effect, but I have watched alot of material and I would swear the image looks better. This may go to the pixel alignment though. I did have Sony align them and they are near perfect now. I used to have 1-1.5 pixels off above and below. Now I am less than a pixel off only below and it is only blue. When I first received it I thought it was perfect. But being anal, which I solely blame AVS for, I searched and searched until I could faintly see a blue outline on a few letters on the menu. All other test material on DVE and Avia look fine and I cannot find any outlines. For me this is fine. I also had them tighten my lense shift and it is tighter now. It holds much better but when adjusting it will catch and then move a bunch at once after the pressure builds up. Its not harder to work with, but sometimes it catches. Sum all this up and it is definitely worth the 5-7 days you will be without the PJ. It gave me more of an appreciation for it. I have had the opportunity to shoot a few other great PJs on my screen lately and the Sony is as good or better than any for overall image satisfaction. It does just draw you in. I was thinking of selling it (purely a business decision) but I am probably going to hold on to it. With the fix, pixel alignment and about 30 hours of Colorfacts tweaking, this PJ is definitely worth more than most anything that could replace it. Its that good!

Originally posted by gdemott
And I thought any DVD player without SDI was a compromise.

Well dvd is not the only source--its a compromise compared to hd. Also the advantage of sdi is only there if the scaling/deinterlacing is better in the scaler than the dvd player and/or projectors (which, I grant, is usually the case). There is now also 480i hdmi to get the signal out of the dvd player.

Originally posted by Sony HS51
I'm glad everyone is jumping on the band wagon.

VGA is the only way to go if you want a "perfect" picture from the Sony HS51.

Now notice I said "perfect" (aka, the best possible pic quality), and not acceptible.

You can get an acceptible picture from the other inputs.

-SOWK

I know you keep saying its the best possible pq but you don't really know that for a fact do you? The advantage of vga>hs51 is that it bypasses the processing in the hs51. However the htpc still has to scale/deinterlace the dvd info.

Its definitely possible that an outboard scaler such as an HD+ through hdmi into the hs51 is as good or better of an image even though it is getting processed in the hs51. I don't know one way or the other and you don't as well (unless you have compared them).

There is no doubt that the desktop and computer apps will look better over vga though due to the bypassing of the hs51's processing (also known as computer mode).

Originally posted by JJay
Well dvd is not the only source--its a compromise compared to hd. Also the advantage of sdi is only there if the scaling/deinterlacing is better in the scaler than the dvd player and/or projectors (which, I grant, is usually the case). There is now also 480i hdmi to get the signal out of the dvd player.


Never said it was the only source.

Here are 2 more advantages of SDI instead of 480i HDMI.

No HDCP

No macrovision

I sense the debate of HTPC vs outboard scaler coming.... then the return of SOWK...... :D

If someone can help and straighten me out I'd appreciate it! I've read every page to this thread (many multiple times) and am now more confused than ever.

I plan to buy my HS-51 and use it with Sony's DVP-NS975V DVD player. Since I won't be using a HTPC, will I lose out with the DVD and HDMI setup? Is there a better option to connect that will minimize the problem? Should I wait a little longer to order and hope to get a projector that has the problem corrected?

Any advice would be great...thanks in advance.



Jeff

i think the best current way would be an SDI modded 5910->IScan HD+->VGA input of HS51. that would be hot. i'm wondering about dvd players that crop pixels. even the 5910 crops pixels. if you are searching for 1:1, upscaled 720p, wouldn't you want a dvd player that crops 0 pixels? i just haven't seen this debate come up.

eric

Originally posted by gdemott
Never said it was the only source.

Here are 2 more advantages of SDI instead of 480i HDMI.

No HDCP

No macrovision

Yes, sorry I misinterpreted your post.

HDCP isn't a problem for most now a days. I didn't know about the macrovision but what is the benefit to that--copying to tape?

I think 480i hdmi gets you the pq benefits with out the added price of sdi.

Admiral, to bypass the problems with 720p on the projector you need only feed it 1080i...some people say it's better some say otherwise, the fact is, it's simple and the picture quality IS very good. You could do better but you wont be dissappointed I think :)

Originally posted by zeroendless
I sense the debate of HTPC vs outboard scaler coming.... then the return of SOWK...... :D

Oh I'm still here!

I will debate this issue, with a very easy to understand statment!

And I'll be nice about it too!


Dont need to be kicked off again! :)

Originally posted by ericeash
i think the best current way would be an SDI modded 5910->IScan HD+->VGA input of HS51. that would be hot. i'm wondering about dvd players that crop pixels. even the 5910 crops pixels. if you are searching for 1:1, upscaled 720p, wouldn't you want a dvd player that crops 0 pixels? i just haven't seen this debate come up.

eric

Eric, yes that would be the best possible solution I think as well for DVD's

For a player that doesnt crop pixels, I "think", the I vnc Bravo D2 DVD player I own doesn't. I read that in one of the DVD forums here.

But I cant tell you for curtian.

- SOWK

Originally posted by ericeash
i think the best current way would be an SDI modded 5910->IScan HD+->VGA input of HS51. that would be hot. i'm wondering about dvd players that crop pixels. even the 5910 crops pixels. if you are searching for 1:1, upscaled 720p, wouldn't you want a dvd player that crops 0 pixels? i just haven't seen this debate come up.

eric

Here's my setup

DVD playback:
RP82 professionally modified for SDI by Pixel Magic --> iScanHD+ scaled to 720p --> VGA OUT --> VPL-HS51

Television viewing:
DirecTV Hughes HD receiver HDMI out @ 1080i --> iScanHD+(w/HDCP OFF)scaled to 720p --> VGA OUT --> VPL-HS51

Originally posted by JJay
I know you keep saying its the best possible pq but you don't really know that for a fact do you? The advantage of vga>hs51 is that it bypasses the processing in the hs51. However the htpc still has to scale/deinterlace the dvd info.

Its definitely possible that an outboard scaler such as an HD+ through hdmi into the hs51 is as good or better of an image even though it is getting processed in the hs51. I don't know one way or the other and you don't as well (unless you have compared them).

There is no doubt that the desktop and computer apps will look better over vga though due to the bypassing of the hs51's processing (also known as computer mode).

HTPC's do have to scale, and deinterlace but if you use the right software they will do an excelent job.

BTW. I am not using a HTPC, I am using a V inc Bravo D2 for my DVD player.
With a DVI-VGA adaptor.

And yes I have compaired Alot of material thru VGA vs HDMI! Read my review of the Sony HS51

I have compaired 4 dvd software programs from a HTPC all thru VGA, and compaired to a Vinc Bravo D2, and Denon 3910 thru HDMI. All of the HTPC software DVD players produces a significantly sharpper image (Noticeable mostly in the menus), and better gray scale.

To your desktop and app statment...

Yes they do look tons better, but you need to know that that proccessing that makes the text blury thru HDMI, is the same thing thats happening to the video. AKA not anywhere near 1:1 mapping, and giveing it a softer look.

For low quaility DVD's today, it's not much of a difference. (there still is though, enough for videophiles to care about losing small details, and gray scale)
But when HD DVD & Blue ray come out later this year, it will make a huge difference. As have a proccessed blurry pic will still look good, but not as real as the non proccessed version.

I really wish I could just have all the people on this HS50/51 forum to come over to my home, sit down a watch a movie, and then leave in shock and awe.

Originally posted by gdemott
Here's my setup

DVD playback:
RP82 professionally modified for SDI by Pixel Magic --> iScanHD+ scaled to 720p --> VGA OUT --> VPL-HS51

Television viewing:
DirecTV Hughes HD receiver HDMI out @ 1080i --> iScanHD+(w/HDCP OFF)scaled to 720p --> VGA OUT --> VPL-HS51


I bet your stuff looks really good!

Let people know the differences you are seeing using VGA on your HD+ compaired to the DVI-HDMI output.

I hope you compaired the differences, And it looks like you have as your using VGA!

Thanks for giving us your input!

BTW... Again great setup!

Originally posted by SOWK
I bet your stuff looks really good!

Let people know the differences you are seeing using VGA on your HD+ compaired to the DVI-HDMI output.

I hope you compaired the differences, And it looks like you have as your using VGA!

Thanks for giving us your input!

BTW... Again great setup!

Actually the output of my iScanHD+ is connected to the VPL-HS51 with both HDMI and VGA cables at all times.

I can instantly switch between INPUT_A Computer and HDMI with the Sony and iScan remotes and A / B both methods at any time. You do not need a $30,000 probe to tell you VGA is the only way to go!

Originally posted by gdemott
Actually the output of my iScanHD+ is connected to the VPL-HS51 with both HDMI and VGA cables at all times.

I can instantly switch between INPUT_A Computer and HDMI with the Sony and iScan remotes and A / B both methods at any time. You do not need a $30,000 probe to tell you VGA is the only way to go!

Interesting. Can you use the internal test generator in the Iscan and see if there is any difference with the pixel On/Off patterns. That would be the real test. I don't like comparing sources with different material, only test patterns.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Interesting. Can you use the internal test generator in the Iscan and see if there is any difference with the pixel On/Off patterns. That would be the real test. I don't like comparing sources with different material, only test patterns.

I was actually doing that last night because I needed to reflash my iscanHD+ with new firmware.

There are 4 test patterns that I find most important.

Frame and Geometry
This draws a 1 pixel wide box around the outside of the display. The only way I can view the entire 1-pixel wide box is via INPUT-A Computer. HDMI 720p and HDMI 1080i cannot do this. This does not prove 1:1 pixel mapping but it does confirm there is no overscan when using VGA.

1-Pixel Checkerboard
Setting the Sony to Signal H SIze 1650 and adjusting the Dot phase produces absolutely crystal clear dot checkerboard and NO BANDING.

1-Pixel Vertical Lines
via VGA Perfect Crisp

1-Pixel Horizontal Lines
via VGA Perfect Crisp

My conclusion is that there is some sort of processing in addition to overscan on all inputs except INPUT-A Computer. These are my observations and my opinions based on my tests and my equipment.

Gary

Originally posted by gdemott
Actually the output of my iScanHD+ is connected to the VPL-HS51 with both HDMI and VGA cables at all times.

I can instantly switch between INPUT_A Computer and HDMI with the Sony and iScan remotes and A / B both methods at any time. You do not need a $30,000 probe to tell you VGA is the only way to go!


Perfect.... Thank you.

Now I think people will start to listen to me!


If anyone wants to disput HDMI vs VGA, please consult me or gdemott we'll tell you what up!

Again VGA is the only way to go if you want the best picture quaility!

Now that the debate is over, everyone get there HS50/51 to Input A - computer and start enjoying the unit to its full potential!

-SOWK

Originally posted by gdemott
My conclusion is that there is some sort of processing in addition to overscan on all inputs except INPUT-A Computer.
Gary

It is pretty clear at this point that 720p over HDMI is not a pass through mode. There seems to clearly be some processing going on. The more important question is what if any difference is there when watching movies.

A few weeks ago we had 6 people doing a "blind" short comparison between 1080i over HDMI vs HTPC/VGA. The material was strictly movies. Where there was a preference, and most of the time it was a tossup, the preference was for the 1080i HDMI input. Most people thought it looked smoother and more film-like.

i just got done running 720p @ 48 Hz over VGA. looks good and comes up #0, 1280x720. which one works out better on the sony, 48Hz or 72Hz?


eric

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Oh my God, it's true. It's absolutely true. Input A - computer is the answer.

I hooked up Input A computer to my 4 slice Kenmore toaster, and it's making perfect toast. It used to make toast with burned edges and under toasted areas to the center of the slice. But no more, Input A - computer now allows for perfect toast, every time.

I moved onto my washer & dryer. You guessed it, the old HDMI hook up on these babies left stains and if I did not take the clothes out of the dry on the buzzer, it was wrinkle city. No More. Input A - computer is giving me brighter whites, better colors, complete stain removal and I can now leave dried clothes in the dryer for a few hours, and they come out looking dry cleaner fresh.

How could I stop there? I simply had to try Input A - computer on a few more appliances.

Next was the table saw. Both HDMI and component were causing less than uniform edges, especially on angled cuts. Switching to Input A - computer has improved the saw performance by atleast 20%, with overall edge resolution the best I have ever seen from a saw. It's amazing.

What next I thought... hummmm... I know, I'll give Input A - computer a whirl on the old toilet. I figured to try it out on the kids toilet, since they are always makin' the dang thing back up. Well to my surprise, no more plunger duty in the kids bath with Input A - computer. I can now fill that baby completely to the rim to all matter of flushables, and damn if the Input A - computer doesn't send it all on it's way. There truely must be less processing with Input A - computer, or else how would one explain the increase flush capacity?

Appliance after appliance, increased benefit after increased benefit, maybe there is something to the Input A - computer thang.

I guess I'll try it on the HS-51. Hmmm, wait a second, somethings not right here. I'll be, the HS-51 still looks best on HDMI.

Oh well, can't win them all.

I can't find the words to express my thanks for Input A - computer. It's going to make me a hero with the wife and kids.

Dont be mad because people are seeing the benefit of Input A - Computer on the HS50/51.

But I like the post by the way. it was funny.

Have you ever tryed hooking up your refidgerator to the Input-A - computer mode?

Makes allows for perfect tempatures for all your foods. Like milk, water, ice, you name it. Nothing ever goes sour now thanks to Input A - computer mode!

Originally posted by ericeash
i just got done running 720p @ 48 Hz over VGA. looks good and comes up #0, 1280x720. which one works out better on the sony, 48Hz or 72Hz?


eric

Sony HS50 or HS51?

Originally posted by SOWK
Dont be mad because people are seeing the benefit of Input A - Computer on the HS50/51.

But I like the post by the way. it was funny.

Have you ever tryed hooking up your refidgerator to the Input-A - computer mode?

Makes allows for perfect tempatures for all your foods. Like milk, water, ice, you name it. Nothing ever goes sour now thanks to Input A - computer mode!

SOWK you are missing the point. The majority of people do not care and I do mean the majority. I am in the business of selling these PJs to customers and I have never had one yet ask me or even question about this on any PJ. In addition no one and I mean no one that I deal with will ever want to run VGA because the majority of the sources sold do not have this output and then no one wants to pay more for the adapter. The question I get is "why would I want to do that?" The key here is the Sony is already head and shoulders above the competition already and as I have seen in many replies to this thread, you are just confusing and scaring many away because of the babble about having to run it your way to get the "best" picture. I would offer this challenge to you. If I could do a full calibration on 2 Sonys for GS, etc (get them both measuring exactly the same) and run selected scenes from reference DVDs (using the same DVD player, say a Pioneer 59Avi) on a split screen you could not pick VGA over HDMI 50% of the time. I am not talking about HTPC, Windows desktop or the like. Come on folks, how good does your windows desktop icons have to look anyway?

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
It is pretty clear at this point that 720p over HDMI is not a pass through mode. There seems to clearly be some processing going on. The more important question is what if any difference is there when watching movies.

A few weeks ago we had 6 people doing a "blind" short comparison between 1080i over HDMI vs HTPC/VGA. The material was strictly movies. Where there was a preference, and most of the time it was a tossup, the preference was for the 1080i HDMI input. Most people thought it looked smoother and more film-like.

Thanks hoya, this is the point that I was trying to make. Though 720p hdmi is not pass through, its possible that people could prefer hdmi over pass through versus vga. Your get together shows this possibility.

Being an htpc user, I wouldn't be surprised if sowk is correct but I don't just assume because we can get pass through mode over vga it guarantees the best pq.

Originally posted by SOWK
Sony HS50 or HS51?


48Hz, 60Hz, or 72Hz 720p to an HS50 from a Bravo D2?

Originally posted by JJay
Thanks hoya, this is the point that I was trying to make. Though 720p hdmi is not pass through, its possible that people could prefer hdmi over pass through versus vga. Your get together shows this possibility.

Being an htpc user, I wouldn't be surprised if sowk is correct but I don't just assume because we can get pass through mode over vga it guarantees the best pq.

If the get together was simply viewing movies the comparision is flawed. The projector is a high definition projector and optimized for HD. Viewing movies from DVD is 480i or 480p your choice. The comparison should be true HD content at 1080i or 720p and then comparing the HDMI to VGA.

Originally posted by awtryau89
SOWK you are missing the point. The majority of people do not care and I do mean the majority. I am in the business of selling these PJs to customers and I have never had one yet ask me or even question about this on any PJ. In addition no one and I mean no one that I deal with will ever want to run VGA because the majority of the sources sold do not have this output and then no one wants to pay more for the adapter. The question I get is "why would I want to do that?" The key here is the Sony is already head and shoulders above the competition already and as I have seen in many replies to this thread, you are just confusing and scaring many away because of the babble about having to run it your way to get the "best" picture. I would offer this challenge to you. If I could do a full calibration on 2 Sonys for GS, etc (get them both measuring exactly the same) and run selected scenes from reference DVDs (using the same DVD player, say a Pioneer 59Avi) on a split screen you could not pick VGA over HDMI 50% of the time. I am not talking about HTPC, Windows desktop or the like. Come on folks, how good does your windows desktop icons have to look anyway?

We'll this fourm is not for the majority. The people on this fourm do care, and can tell a difference.

Also I am just informing people how to get the best perfrmance. If they want to listen great. But I also dont want people saying that you can get better performance from HDMI, when it is a very false claim.

I can tell a slipt screen shot of HDMI vs VGA 100% of the time on the Sony HS 50/51. BTW you can never get a Sony unit using HDMI calibrted like VGA for GS or sharpness for that matter!

Originally posted by JJay
Thanks hoya, this is the point that I was trying to make. Though 720p hdmi is not pass through, its possible that people could prefer hdmi over pass through versus vga. Your get together shows this possibility.

Being an htpc user, I wouldn't be surprised if sowk is correct but I don't just assume because we can get pass through mode over vga it guarantees the best pq.

The only way I think anyone would choose HDMI vs VGA, is no HTPC, or doesn't want to spend the money (DVI to VGA) to get a better pic.

Then you truly havent seen how bad the internal proccessing of the sony is!

Originally posted by gdemott
If the get together was simply viewing movies the comparision is flawed. The projector is a high definition projector and optimized for HD. Viewing movies from DVD is 480i or 480p your choice. The comparison should be true HD content at 1080i or 720p and then comparing the HDMI to VGA.

Right on.

People seem to forget that DVD's will be old news come Nov. HD DVD's will be out and anyone who is not blind will be able to see huge advantages to VGA over HDMI!

Originally posted by ericeash
48Hz, 60Hz, or 72Hz 720p to an HS50 from a Bravo D2?

Have you tried it at 72Hz?

Originally posted by keenan
Have you tried it at 72Hz?


Can you try it 50hz?

But I think 48 should be better then 72, as it is closer to PAL 50Hz settings.

HD DVD's will be out and anyone who is not blind will be able to see huge advantages to VGA over HDMI!

Only one blind to think vga is hdcp-capable media for hd-dvd/blueray. hhmmm.... hint hint... u forget to advertise the magic box? LOL

Originally posted by SOWK
Can you try it 50hz?

But I think 48 should be better then 72, as it is closer to PAL 50Hz settings.

Are we talking about an internal setting on the HS51/50? Or whether the HS51/50 will accept a 72Hz signal, which would provide for an even smoother picture than 48/50/60? Has it been determined if the HS51 will accept a 72Hz signal?

Originally posted by keenan
Are we talking about an internal setting on the HS51/50? Or whether the HS51/50 will accept a 72Hz signal, which would provide for an even smoother picture than 48/50/60? Has it been determined if the HS51 will accept a 72Hz signal?

this is what i'm wondering. i thought that 48Hz wasn't quite as smooth as 60Hz. so i guess i'll try 72Hz. even though i have an HS50, i'm not running a PAL dvd player, so the 50Hz is out. if 72Hz is the way to go, i'll give it a try.

thanks!

Originally posted by ericeash
this is what i'm wondering. i thought that 48Hz wasn't quite as smooth as 60Hz. so i guess i'll try 72Hz. even though i have an HS50, i'm not running a PAL dvd player, so the 50Hz is out. if 72Hz is the way to go, i'll give it a try.

thanks!

Thats nice to hear eric. try 75hz if you can.

Although 60hz is standard for most NTSC devices.

I think th Sony will allow for up to 75hz, I will hook my HTPC back up to the HS51 and someday let you know what it can go up too.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Only one blind to think vga is hdcp-capable media for hd-dvd/blueray. hhmmm.... hint hint... u forget to advertise the magic box? LOL

I love it when people think I dont know what Im talking about and then they get informed, and need to eat there words.

Go back and read my review, I do have a fully compatible DVI to VGA converter.

Or look in google for

Dtrovision DC-DA1

quote from there site

"Dtrovision DVI Link’s DVI digital to VGA analog converter is ideal for front projectors and other analog displays with VGA/RGBHV input. The DC-DA1 is ideal for backwards compatibility with today's higher resolution devices such as HDTV tuners and DVD Players. The DC-DA1 is HDCP compliant and can be used with devices that use this copy protection feature. With 1.65GPs throughput, the DC-DA1 is ideal both for A/V equipment and Computer graphics."

I think you will like what you see!

I also am still trying to figure out why anyone disputs what I have to say anymore. I don't belive I have given out any wrong information on anything.

I do lots of research before I write. And if I dont fully know I'll say things like, I think... or it would possibly...

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Wall Street Journal - Technical Section
March 25, 2005



You seriously put alot of time into your posts. I think there great.

You are one heck of a poster byte. Keep them coming. I love them. I love the fake link too. You plan things out very well, and also write very well.

Looks real!

And it whopping, not wopping my friends. hehe

That was a post a long time ago! You remebered, You like me, you really like me!

Now go stand in the corner. :D

:D

Bytehoven, you made my day.

I heard they will include a composite/vga adapter too. :)

Originally posted by dr00w
:D

Bytehoven, you made my day.

I heard they will include a composite/vga adapter too. :)

Actually, they have gone as far as making a RF to VGA adaptor, for the old school Beta tapes or VCR's without composite!

Pics included!

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/74805441-med.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/74805442-med.jpg


*Actually the second one is real!*

Back to real world, anyone heard something from Sony Canada about the fix ?

I don't know about Sony Canada, but I'm in Texas and I overnighted my HS51 to Sony (Laredo) last Thursday (the 17th). So they received it the 18th, and I just received an email today letting me know it has been "received" and will be worked on. ...in case anyone was wondering about current turnaround times.

I love it when people think I dont know what Im talking about and then they get informed, and need to eat there words.

Go back and read my review, I do have a fully compatible DVI to VGA converter.

Or look in google for

Dtrovision DC-DA1

quote from there site

"Dtrovision DVI Link’s DVI digital to VGA analog converter is ideal for front projectors and other analog displays with VGA/RGBHV input. The DC-DA1 is ideal for backwards compatibility with today's higher resolution devices such as HDTV tuners and DVD Players. The DC-DA1 is HDCP compliant and can be used with devices that use this copy protection feature. With 1.65GPs throughput, the DC-DA1 is ideal both for A/V equipment and Computer graphics."

I think you will like what you see!

LOL, that's what i meant..... Sorry if you didn't get it...

FYI, love to see you back amusing the crowd...:D

Originally posted by dr00w
Back to real world, anyone heard something from Sony Canada about the fix ?

Do you have a HS51 or HS50?

Heres a link for the fix on Sony's site, but I think it is only for the HS51

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl_id=3829&news_id=67

-SOWK

Originally posted by zeroendless
LOL, that's what i meant..... Sorry if you didn't get it...

FYI, love to see you back amusing the crowd...:D

Yup, but have you noticed I'm much nicer in my posts!

I still want people to have fun. Helps make it interesting. Bytes latest post are great! read them.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Only one blind to think vga is hdcp-capable media for hd-dvd/blueray.

What does this stament mean? This is what I dont understand?

Originally posted by SOWK
Do you have a HS51 or HS50?


HS-50. This link is for HS-51 only. Thanks anyway.

Hd-dvd/blue-ray said to standardize hdmi /(dvi) output only, no doubt it will be hdcp. But no component, vga or any other analog connections. I was just respond to you reply "HD DVD's will be out and anyone who is not blind will be able to see huge advantages to VGA over HDMI!" Tha't the opposite.

That would be a bit** for CRT user or those without hdcp compliant display right? Not always the case,,,thanks to the magic box, we can have it converted with hdcp.

i just remind you to advertise you magic box...LOL

Originally posted by SOWK
We'll this fourm is not for the majority. The people on this fourm do care, and can tell a difference.

Also I am just informing people how to get the best perfrmance. If they want to listen great. But I also dont want people saying that you can get better performance from HDMI, when it is a very false claim.

I can tell a slipt screen shot of HDMI vs VGA 100% of the time on the Sony HS 50/51. BTW you can never get a Sony unit using HDMI calibrted like VGA for GS or sharpness for that matter!

First of all, you definitely are not someone who knows about this. You are wrong. You can achieve proper grayscale as easy or easier with HDMI or Component versus VGA. I know this because I have done it. The GS anomlies with this PJ are dependant on the Dynamic Video Adjustment that is going on whether or not you have the Dynamic Iris is on. If you are using VGA and the DI you have processing to the video signal happening. This is a guarantee. Also this has nothing to do with 1:1 pixel mapping and the processing you are talking about. SOWK, have you calibrated your machine? If so, what instrumentation did you use? What calibration program did you use? Have you ever calibrated a PJ with something other than your eyes? I know you will probably lie to everyone and say you did and have but I know better. You would not be making these general blanket statements if you had. Your PJ does not have the 720p fix so you cannot speak to these issues with true authority. I also stand by my earlier comments. On a PROPERLY calibrated HS51, if I chose the reference material, you could do no better than 50% on picking which was which. The HDMI can look that good, with DVD and HD material. I am tired of arguing with someone who really does not have a clue (SOWDNHAC) so I am out on this thread. If anyone wants good, true, logical information on this or any other PJ please feel free to PM me, Byte, Kris Deering or others that do know.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Hd-dvd/blue-ray said to standardize hdmi /(dvi) output only, no doubt it will be hdcp. But no component, vga or any other analog connections. I was just respond to you reply "HD DVD's will be out and anyone who is not blind will be able to see huge advantages to VGA over HDMI!" Tha't the opposite.

That would be a bit** for CRT user or those without hdcp compliant display right? Not always the case,,,thanks to the magic box, we can have it converted with hdcp.

i just remind you to advertise you magic box...LOL

Thanks!

Originally posted by awtryau89
First of all, you definitely are not someone who knows about this. You are wrong. You can achieve proper grayscale as easy or easier with HDMI or Component versus VGA. I know this because I have done it. The GS anomlies with this PJ are dependant on the Dynamic Video Adjustment that is going on whether or not you have the Dynamic Iris is on. If you are using VGA and the DI you have processing to the video signal happening. This is a guarantee. Also this has nothing to do with 1:1 pixel mapping and the processing you are talking about. SOWK, have you calibrated your machine? If so, what instrumentation did you use? What calibration program did you use? Have you ever calibrated a PJ with something other than your eyes? I know you will probably lie to everyone and say you did and have but I know better. You would not be making these general blanket statements if you had. Your PJ does not have the 720p fix so you cannot speak to these issues with true authority. I also stand by my earlier comments. On a PROPERLY calibrated HS51, if I chose the reference material, you could do no better than 50% on picking which was which. The HDMI can look that good, with DVD and HD material. I am tired of arguing with someone who really does not have a clue (SOWDNHAC) so I am out on this thread. If anyone wants good, true, logical information on this or any other PJ please feel free to PM me, Byte, Kris Deering or others that do know.

Like someone said earlyer, you dont need $30,000 worth of test equipment to tell VGA is better.

And No I wont lie, I have only tested with my eyes. I dont need to use equipment to know VGA is significently better. But sence you tweaked it so much...

Tell us what setting you have, and how to calibate it like you have!

Then we can all have "perfect" HDMI input.

Oh yeah, aside from the fact you can never get 1:1 mapping, overscan on the "Fixed" units and Blanking on the non fixed units!

Also what is your logical information? I want to hear it.

Logically a signal that is not proccessed is closer to the original. Enough said!

Gayscale tracking is fine after ColorFacts calibration under Dynamic Iris, VGA or HDMI the same. And SOWK should drop any "Sharpness" talking as it has nothing to do with 1:1 issue.

Seriously, after 10 years and 7 models from the first generation W400 (around 1995 I guess), 10HT, 11HT, 12HT, HS10, HS20 and now HS50/51, Sony still can't make a proper HTPC connection. Are they simply DUMB or what?

regards,

Li On

Li On are you telling me that a 1:1 mapping of a 720P source, will not be more crisp aka (Sharp) Then the same source not 1:1 mapped?

Also tell me how you calibrate the grey scale? What are you doing to get results? What chging brightness, contrast settings? Going into the service menu? what.... Everyone keeps taking about calibrating, But what settings are you calibrating?

Also when I refer to sharpness Im not talking about artificial sharpness like on a TV in its menu system.

I received my PJ back from Sony a couple of days ago. I had sent it in for the firmware upgrade and to have the convergence fixed. What I got back was surprising. First off the the job sheet stated " No power, electronic adjustment" thats it. The unit worked fine when I sent it in. The convergence is now WORSE than it was before I sent it in! It's so bad that I see artifacts while viewing different types of content. Secondly the unit no longer recognizes 1080i as 1080i through the VGA port. It now sees it as 480 and produces a 4:3 image! The firmware up grade was done but it was hardly worth it for what I got back. I took the unit back to the dealer I purchased it from and exchanged it for the loaner they let me use when I sent mine in. The loaner was new in the box when I first got it. The convergence on it is perfect! It doesn't have the upgrade but I think I will live with it as is. I'm afraid to ship it back to Sony. The loaner works fine on 1080i through VGA using the exact same source. Anyone else experience any of these things. Have any of you with the firmware fix tried to input 1080i through the VGA port? If so, does it work?

Thanks
Charles

Originally posted by Prometheusbound
I received my PJ back from Sony a couple of days ago. I had sent it in for the firmware upgrade and to have the convergence fixed. What I got back was surprising. First off the the job sheet stated " No power, electronic adjustment" thats it. The unit worked fine when I sent it in. The convergence is now WORSE than it was before I sent it in! It's so bad that I see artifacts while viewing different types of content. Secondly the unit no longer recognizes 1080i as 1080i through the VGA port. It now sees it as 480 and produces a 4:3 image! The firmware up grade was done but it was hardly worth it for what I got back. I took the unit back to the dealer I purchased it from and exchanged it for the loaner they let me use when I sent mine in. The loaner was new in the box when I first got it. The convergence on it is perfect! It doesn't have the upgrade but I think I will live with it as is. I'm afraid to ship it back to Sony. The loaner works fine on 1080i through VGA using the exact same source. Anyone else experience any of these things. Have any of you with the firmware fix tried to input 1080i through the VGA port? If so, does it work?

Thanks
Charles

I hope you get a responce back. But the people who are sending it in are mostly using HDMI for their input connection.

What you had for an experiance is exactly why I will not send it to Sony.

I dont want a broken unit when it comes back!

Sorry, I mean the Sharpness Control.

As for the grayscale calibration, you may need to search for my old posts many months ago.

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by Li On
Gayscale tracking is fine after ColorFacts calibration under Dynamic Iris, VGA or HDMI the same. And SOWK should drop any "Sharpness" talking as it has nothing to do with 1:1 issue.

Seriously, after 10 years and 7 models from the first generation W400 (around 1995 I guess), 10HT, 11HT, 12HT, HS10, HS20 and now HS50/51, Sony still can't make a proper HTPC connection. Are they simply DUMB or what?

regards,

Li On

When using the term "Sharpness" I believe SOWK is referring how much sharper the picture appears when using the dreaded "VGA" mode.

For all you non believers and experts with your fancy calibration software I challenge you to the following. Use a HD capable test pattern generator such as iScanHD or any software of your choice and perform the following 3 tests.

Test 1
Create alternating rows exactly 1 pixel high alternating each row on and off.

Test2
Create alternating vertical lines exactly 1 pixel in width and alternate each line with pixels on and off.

Test3
Create a checkerboard pattern using only 1 pixel wide on and off for the entire display.

Now try calibrating the system so the patterns display properly with 1:1 pixel perfect precision.

This precision when viewing real world HD images equates to a much sharper picture and better viewing experience. And as far as the comment regarding how sharp people need their Icons... I don't even have a HTPC. The sharpness of the VGA method also helps any text (Titles, Game Scores, and more) during HD broadcasts.

Originally posted by Li On
Sorry, I mean the Sharpness Control.

As for the grayscale calibration, you may need to search for my old posts many months ago.

regards,

Li On

Thank you Li On.

But you do agree that a 1:1 mapped 720P source will be more defined, crisp, and sharp then a non 1:1 mapped 720P source. Right?

I will go back and look for your posts!

Found this on a Danish CRT PJ forum about the DTronics DVI-RGB adaptor.
Any concerns?

"The most interesting component in the box is the DVI-RGB chip. It looks like the brand and model info has been overwritten. Can you make anything out? Maybe give us some other tips. How many pins do the chip have?"

"It looks like a 52 pin PLCC, so i´ll bet it is the Silicon Image Sil-907B chip. I don´t know of other chipmanufactures using 52 pin PLCC housing for this kind of chips. It has DVI input and three 10 bit DACs outputs. The DAC is the only downside of the chip, as the resulting RGB output cannot be higher than 7.5 bits per channel. Not using the DVI-D 10 bits resolution to it´s full."

http://www.outofsync.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13&PN=3&TPN=2

Originally posted by DeeVee
Found this on a Danish CRT PJ forum about the DTronics DVI-RGB adaptor.
Any concerns?




Are you making fun of the Magic box? J/k thats good information to know, if its true. but no one knows whos DAC it is. But it works wonders anyhow!

For thoese that dont get it...

We are beating a dead horse!

Input A is better then HDMI.
lol

byte - did you like my rf to vga adapter pic?

Thanks for all the great info guys, I've been following from the start (and I thought the Optima H-30 thread was long).

I'm running vga/input-A/comuter mode from a Samsung SIR-T360 HD reciever to the Sony HS-51. I think the picture looks fantastic, but this is my first projector, so what do I know. I would love any advice as to if I'm getting the "magic" that everyone talking about with INPUT-A. When I run the APA it comes up: Dot Phase 4----H Size----1664. Where do I go from there to adjust/calibrate. When in 720p/rgb mode I get no blanking, but in 1080i it goes to 4:3.

Like I say the picture looks great and It's crisp sharp with lots of detail(depending on source). Any advice as to adjustments would be apreciated.

BTW I'm running from DVD player >hdmi out/dvi cable/hdmi in>Sony-51 and I think the picture looks great.

Am I setting this up right?

Thanks
---------------------------------------
James

Originally posted by gps
Where do I go from there to adjust/calibrate. When in 720p/rgb mode I get no blanking, but in 1080i it goes to 4:3.



Well 1080i will only work with VideoGBR mode. but the sony will then proccess the image. Best to keep it at 720P

Sony doesn't have a preset mode for 1080I or 480P widescreen.

I would love for Byte to help me with this, but he doesn't like my Input-A support.

Yes Byte I would love for you to help me. Your ability to get thru to sony is uncanny.

If possible can you see if they would add preset modes for 720X480 and 1920X1080 in computer mode? Or if there is a way to set our own preset modes.

Bytehoven:

That picture is great !


Do you think if I connect my Laptop and use INPUT-A I'll see the horse in color and he will rise again? <grin>

Really that picture is the funniest thing I have seen today! At least we can all have a good laugh!

Gary

EDIT: Let us move on and keep the personal opinions out of this thread.

Kyser

Originally posted by Bytehoven
I asked you and others to post your source settings and the HS-51 info menu information, so I could pass it along to Sony, and perhaps they could suggest a solution to your poor HDMI performance.


Byte,

Speaking of which, have they commented on the data we gave you? Whose this SOWK you speak of? ;)

Edit: Please keep PM's off the board.

Kyser

Closed.
Not sure for how long.

Time for everyone to calm down and mature a little.

Open:

For the most part this has been a useful thread.
Please try and contain yourself with any disagreements that you may have. with other members.

We are talking about a projector here, nothing more.

Carry on and keep it civil.
The next closure is permanent.


Kyser

Help!

I posted this in the unofficial thread while this was closed, but have not received any answers yet.

Just received the HS51 and with progressive component I can not see any brightness pattern. Avia, DVE - nothing - even with brightness up to 100. Using a Sony DVD player that I know passes BTB and has always worked with all of my other displays.

I also can't see the Avia 10IRE window pattern either. The HS51 seems to be crushing blacks. Black level adjust is OFF, gamma correction is OFF. I've also tried with all of these in different positions, as well as all the iris settings, etc.

I must be missing something simple - or else there is something wrong with my unit.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Pip

Byte:

My source is a Sony 655 DVD player outputting standard 480P video. I have tried three other DVD players as well. Same result with 480P. 480i workd fine.

Pip

Originally posted by Pip

Just received the HS51 and with progressive component I can not see any brightness pattern. Avia, DVE - nothing - even with brightness up to 100. Using a Sony DVD player that I know passes BTB and has always worked with all of my other displays.

I also can't see the Avia 10IRE window pattern either. The HS51 seems to be crushing blacks. Black level adjust is OFF, gamma correction is OFF. I've also tried with all of these in different positions, as well as all the iris settings, etc.
Pip
Sounds like you have a black level setup ( 0IRE/7.5IRE) mismatch between the DVD player and the pj! If the player is outputting 0IRE for black and the display is expecting 7.5IRE, you will get black crush.

As long as you can get both the player and pj to have the same setup 0IRE or 7.5 IRE you should be set. :)

If your player has a black level setup, sometimes called enhanced black, toggle it and see what happens!