Hoya:

That's what I thought. But my DVD player doesn't have a selectable black level. It automatically outputs 0 IRE with 480P and 7.5 IRE with 480i. I know that it is doing this correctly from testing other displays.

The HS51 also expects 7.5 with 480i and this works fine, but with 480P, it also seems to be fixed (incorrectly) at 7.5.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks,
Pip

Originally posted by Pip
Hoya:

The HS51 also expects 7.5 with 480i and this works fine, but with 480P, it also seems to be fixed (incorrectly) at 7.5.
Pip
I had the same problem with the Sony 725 player and HS10 pj, black level setup mismatch, and no configuration options on either player or pj. My "solution" was to output 480i based on the premise that the processor in the pj, given that they are both Sonys, was equal or better than the player.

I think that the same logic would hold for the HS51. You might want to also try 480i/HDMI if your player supports it

Byte:

Thanks - I've already tried all of your suggestions. HS51 contrast setting has no affect - I've tried it from top to bottom. The player does have different video settings - I've tried them all. And I know from other displays that the default setting is right on. I've also tried three other DVD players - all the same result - a hard clip.

It really seems as if the HS51 is stuck on a 7.5IRE level for 480P. I'm wondering if I'm missing something obvious in the projector's setup, or if there is a factory menu setting somewhere for this which is set incorrectly.

I appreciate all the help - keep it coming.

Pip

I check the BTB and white peak using the Avia color bar patterns, which have the moving bars in both the white and black areas at the bottom of the the SMPTE pattern.

Wrong. Avia does not contain data outside the bounds of 16-235. The moving white and black bars in Avia are below reference white, and above reference black, respectively. You must use Avia PRO or DVE for test patterns with elements outside the bounds of 16-235.

Byte
It seems that Pip does have a black pedestal setup mismatch at 480p. IIRC the BenQ 8700 had a similar problem. I believe a Factory Menu fix was found/made available. This might be another piece of info to pass along to your Sony contacts

originally posted by Bytehoven

Which AVIA patterns were you talking about?

I check the BTB and white peak using the Avia color bar patterns, which have the moving bars in both the white and black areas at the bottom of the the SMPTE pattern. Sometimes I need to dial brightness back for some films, but usually 80/60 is perfect.

Yes , those are the patterns. I can't see any bars - or the 10IRE window, so everything down there is getting clipped.

It does seem like an black IRE mismatch. Is this really the way the HS51 is designed? Does anyone out there use component progressive with this machine? I find it hard to believe that I can't set the projector to properly display a 480P signal.


Pip

Originally posted by Pip

It does seem like an black IRE mismatch. Is this really the way the HS51 is designed? Does anyone out there use component progressive with this machine? I find it hard to believe that I can't set the projector to properly display a 480P signal.

Pip
Some of the blame goes to your player. It should support selectable black pedestal either 0IRE or 7.5IRE at 480p

I told you, you CANT test for this using Avia. Avia is limited to 16-235, you need the full ramps in DVE or Avia PRO to test for clipping BTB bars and such. If you are clipping Avia, you are getting *severe* clipping of what should always be very visible image data.

Guys:

I want to thank you all very much for your ideas and efforts. I finally solved the problem - cables! After all the work of hooking up three other DVD players, I finally decided to swap cables and the problem was solved. Oddly enough, this black crush problem was the only symptom that anything was wrong with the cables. All other test patterns looked fine.

My humble apologies, and thanks again for your efforts.

Pip

I now have the HS51 hooked up both to an HDMI cable and a VGA cable from the video card in my HTPC. I've calibrated HDMI at 1080i using Avia and I'm very happy with the picture quality. Based on the raves of some for the Input-A PQ, I thought I'd give it a try. I'm concerned though because when I switch, the picture is REALLY dark. Looks like I'll need to setup a new setting with totally different color bias, etc. Is this normal, or do I have a cable or some other problem?

I'll watch HDMI at 1080i for life if that's as good as it gets because it looks great to me. But always interested in "being blown away" by some miraculous tweak or other option.

Thanks,

Chuck

Originally posted by Pip
Guys:

I want to thank you all very much for your ideas and efforts. I finally solved the problem - cables! After all the work of hooking up three other DVD players, I finally decided to swap cables and the problem was solved. Oddly enough, this black crush problem was the only symptom that anything was wrong with the cables. All other test patterns looked fine.

My humble apologies, and thanks again for your efforts.

Pip

Cables? What kind of cables are they that they would do that...?

anybody using a panasonic DVD-S97 dvd player with the hs51? if so how about a short review. thanx eff

Pip-

Funny story, slightly off-the-subject, but I thought I should share...my VPL-HS10 just returned from its fifth trip to Sony service where they've been trying to nail down a noise/interference problem that was introduced after the "lamp bug" repair was accomplished. Anyway, this last time a Sony engineer made a tweak that fixed the interference problem, but guess what? My black levels are totally shot. Using the same Avia test pattern you tried ("Black Bars & Half Gray"), I'm completely unable to see the moving vertical bars, even when I crank the brightness to max, but only with a 480p input...interlaced works fine. Anyway, it looks like my projector will be travelling yet again...

Oh yeah, cables weren't my problem (I tried that). :-)

Originally posted by Chuck Miller
I now have the HS51 hooked up both to an HDMI cable and a VGA cable from the video card in my HTPC. I've calibrated HDMI at 1080i using Avia and I'm very happy with the picture quality. Based on the raves of some for the Input-A PQ, I thought I'd give it a try. I'm concerned though because when I switch, the picture is REALLY dark. Looks like I'll need to setup a new setting with totally different color bias, etc. Is this normal, or do I have a cable or some other problem?

I'll watch HDMI at 1080i for life if that's as good as it gets because it looks great to me. But always interested in "being blown away" by some miraculous tweak or other option.

Thanks,

Chuck

When you switch to Input A - Makes ure you setup everything back to default Sony settings. You can't calibrate HDMI, then just switch to VGA.

I privately asked a forum member what he thought of the Panny and HS51 combo. Not sure if he cares if I post this. I will do so but not include his name in case he would prefer to remain anonymous:


I like the combination very well (at least since I updgraded the firmware in the S97). Before the s97 firmware upgrade, I saw serious macroblocking on just about every title. After the upgrade (I'm on version 536), I can't seem to detect any macroblocking. There was one title where I thought I saw it, but after viewing the same segment off another source, I realized it was inherent in the transfer. Some sort of mpeg artifact I suspect.

I use the s97 for its family friendly ease of use. I also use my laptop (via VGA) as a HTPC, which give me marginally better picture quality and true 720p pixel mapping, but I'm the only one in the house who can operate set it up and operate it. Thus, the s97 does the work most of the time. The rest of the family can just pop a disc in the s97 and be done with it. I even find myself using the s97 fairly often when I'm lazy and don't feel like unpacking and hooking up the laptop (which is primarly a work machine that does double duty as a HTPC).

I've only done basic calibration with Video Essentials and AVIAso far. The s97 does pass blacker than black to the hs51 and has a whole cartload of controls to tweak the picture. For the most part however, I've left it set on Cinema as it gives me a great picture. I do output 1080i to the hs51 instead of 720p to bypass the blanking issue.

I am planning on sending the HS51 in for the firmware upgrade that's available now. Then I can experiment with 720p directly to the projector and bypass some scaling. But to be honest, even with with the extra scaling/deinterlacing, the picture is great. The extra processing does soften the image a tiny bit, but to be honest, it makes it almost more filmlike (less digital). I may end up prefering 1080i anyway.

Also, I may eventually add a full HTPC (instead of the laptop) to my home theater to maximize the quality, but to be honest, I think the s97 gets me about 95% of the way there.

thanks reaper, ive been thinking about getting the panny. sounds like a good unit. I dont have the hs51 anymore but have a hs3 which uses a silicon image panellink chip for the hdmi (i opened it up to clean the optics) and I did some research and the panny uses the same panellink chip (transmitter version vs the receiver version inside the hs3) I think the hs51 uses silicon images panellink inside also for its hdmi. Since the dvdo by silicon image is suppose to not have a problem with 1:1 mapping with the hs51 I thought maybe there might be some connection there, but i was just brain storming. thanx jeff

Originally posted by jeffropaige
thanks reaper, ive been thinking about getting the panny. sounds like a good unit. I dont have the hs51 anymore but have a hs3 which uses a silicon image panellink chip for the hdmi (i opened it up to clean the optics) and I did some research and the panny uses the same panellink chip (transmitter version vs the receiver version inside the hs3) I think the hs51 uses silicon images panellink inside also for its hdmi. Since the dvdo by silicon image is suppose to not have a problem with 1:1 mapping with the hs51 I thought maybe there might be some connection there, but i was just brain storming. thanx jeff

It should, but it won't unfortunatley. The HDMI 720P input on the Sony is not pass-thru. The sony will still proccess the image. Also if your unit is "fixed" you will be getting overscan.

There is one other connection on the Sony that will allow for 1:1 mapping though.

-Sowk

ya i heard the whole vga vs hdmi debate. im not interested in starting that up again as it got pretty hot around here. but thanx for chiming in. jeff

Sony HS51 with fix shipping?
I just ordered the new hs51 from a local dealer in Albuquerque and want to know if Sony is now shipping the updated hs51. The dealer new about the fix and stated that all units shipped out later than Mar 1st will have the fix. Is this right?

great shot, byte. Thanks

I can't read the Exif, what kind of camera it's ?

Originally posted by zeroendless
great shot, byte. Thanks

I can't read the Exif, what kind of camera it's ?

When are you getting that 20D? I want to start seeing some high rez HS51 shots.

With 8.2Mega-Pixels I should be seeing the dust and hair dander on the screen material itself :)

When are you getting that 20D? I want to start seeing some high rez HS51 shots.


Holding in my hand now with 24-70 L len... :D. Once i decided on the tripod, i posted some pics. My screen seats high and it's hard to get anything to hold this beast about ~4.6 lb with len + grip. May be i am just relunctant to place it up high without the tripod.

Also, my Smart III version 2 should be here next week. Good timing for before and after screenshot. It's small $ for calibration tools specially those can't afford the high dollars colorfacts and such.

By the way, good screen shot makes $1k FP looks like a million dollar baby...LOL

Pentax 3.2M Optio shot at max resolution & best quality. They were imported into Photoshop for the consolidation, cropping and downsizing for export to jpeg.

that's right!, i forgot u r advanced ps user. My shot gonna be harder for comparison due to overscan ( larger image). Never occurred to me i wish i have the old firmware........LOL

I have been following this thread and have decided to use the IScan HD+-> with my hs-51 via RGB. I also have a Sony 50" KDE-50XS955 in the same theater. My screen will drop down in front of the Plasma when using the hs-51. How would I use just the one Iscan HD+ to both display devices without having to change the output setting constantly. Two Presets would be fine. Can this be programed into Iscan so I could have the HDMI/DVI to the Plasma and the RGB to the projector than just switch between presets? This is a new concept to me. Any thoughts? The Sony Plasma has HDMI and Component inputs. The native resolution of the Plasma is: 1366 pixels (h) x 768 pixels (v). Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Trev

I think the new beta FW release from DVDO may allow for that but I haven't played with it myself yet.

http://www.dvdo.com/update/index.html
DVDO : faq & support

Interested in the Sony HS51. Was wondering if anybody knows a location in teh Raleigh,Cary Durham NC area that would have it in display to see it in person?

Thanks!
Raf

Originally posted by Bytehoven

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/7480544HS-51Iscan.jpg

This is a pefect pic. to show VGA is better.

Everyone look at the 350, it is more natural on VGA, also look at the Circle outline on the left of the 350. Notice how smooth it is in VGA, and how it looks like a stair stepping effect with HDMI. Thats what the processing of the sony does to everything thru HDMI. Plus heres the Big one! Look at the Blacks, VGA looks black, and grey background, HDMI looks to have a tint of red. not full black. Plus the background as well has a hint of red!

For the Second pic, the only reason VGA looks the same is because APA was not set properly!

But anyway. it is still a flawed comparison as it is not in true 720P (it just an upscaled image from 480P). I also dont like the fact that your that close and you dont see the screendoor. So the Camera is adding a blurry efect to the image as well. But thanks for the Pics Byte!

-SOWK


-Edit Byte chged the pic, and I will be posting back the oridginal! I beleived he rmved it because I was correct. * this is not a personal attack. Please don't take it that way!

--Edit Chged back to ordginal, AVS photo Galerry shrinks the image abit but this it the pic he was showing!

So what are you saying sowk, the hdmi looks better? Does to me too. I do agree with one thing though, being that close, where are the pixels? Sorry Byte, just curious, was this taken from a distance or using a macro lense?

Originally posted by SOWK
This is a pefect pic. to show VGA is better.

Everyone look at the 350, it is more natural on VGA, also look at the Circle outline on the left of the 350. Notice how smooth it is in VGA, and how it looks like a stair stepping effect with HDMI. Thats what the processing of the sony does to everything thru HDMI. Plus heres the Big one! Look at the Blacks, VGA looks black, and grey background, HDMI looks to have a tint of red. not full black. Plus the background as well has a hint of red!

For the Second pic, the only reason VGA looks the same is because APA was not set properly!

But anyway. it is still a flawed comparison as it is not in true 720P (it just an upscaled image from 480P). I also dont like the fact that your that close and you dont see the screendoor. So the Camera is adding a blurry efect to the image as well. But thanks for the Pics Byte!

-SOWK


-Edit Byte chged the pic, and I will be posting back the oridginal! I beleived he rmved it because I was correct. * this is not a personal attack. Please don't take it that way!

--Edit Chged back to ordginal, AVS photo Galerry shrinks the image abit but this it the pic he was showing!


Both images have stair stepping, but it looks like Sony added a blur filter on the HDMI to give it a more natural cinema look. That blurring seams like it is exaggerating the star stepping more then VGA.

I personally could care less about VGA; I want HDMI to be flawless, I would like this conversation to stop and go back to how we can get Sony to give us a perfect HDMI connection. I am still waiting to get my projector so there is still time for me to jump ship for another projector if I have to. Case closed end of story, SOWK shut up and enjoy your VGA.
:mad:

Originally posted by LimeLizzards
So what are you saying sowk, the hdmi looks better? Does to me too. I do agree with one thing though, being that close, where are the pixels? Sorry Byte, just curious, was this taken from a distance or using a macro lense?

Did you even read what I wrote?

No HDMI does not look better then VGA at all!

... enough with the "VGA is better", "I told you so". "I am right you are wrong" posts.

That dead horse has been beaten so much that it's all ground up and set to be slapped on a grill and served on a bun.

Originally posted by Zip3kx07
Both images have stair stepping, but it looks like Sony added a blur filter on the HDMI to give it a more natural cinema look. That blurring seams like it is exaggerating the star stepping more then VGA.

I personally could care less about VGA; I want HDMI to be flawless, I would like this conversation to stop and go back to how we can get Sony to give us a perfect HDMI connection. I am still waiting to get my projector so there is still time for me to jump ship for another projector if I have to. Case closed end of story, SOWK shut up and enjoy your VGA.
:mad:

I agree with you 100% about your blurring comments and the desire to see HDMI flawless. As I noted previously, HDMI is currently what I use even though at 720p its not the best for htpc use. I am out of inputs and its good enough when you are playing a dvd. But good enough means there is more to be gotten. Will it kill me if we never get it? No, but it is frustrating when billion dollar companies could make their products so much better so easily...

Hey Sony, Hey Panasonic, Hey Sanyo, Hey NEC just read the feedback on AVS Forum. Assign an intern for christs sake...

Brian

I've had the HS51 for a couple months now. I'm projecting onto a Parkland screen and I've been having some keystone problems (i think.)

The width on the left side of the image is larger than the width of the right side. I've tried messing around with the keystone with no luck.

Is it something wrong with my projector or am I missing something here.

Thanks

Originally posted by DirtHerder
... enough with the "VGA is better", "I told you so". "I am right you are wrong" posts.

That dead horse has been beaten so much that it's all ground up and set to be slapped on a grill and served on a bun.


OK I will be more respectfull to the HDMI. But the next time someones says HDMI looks better then VGA, its fair game! And I will win and prove my point! Which I have done all along.


One someone can get me a firmware update for the HDMI to allow 1:1 mapping, and no blanking I will jump to get it ASAP!

But I need it to not be proccessed by the Sony.

Originally posted by SOWK
Did you even read what I wrote?

No HDMI does not look better then VGA at all!




What do you want to here SOWK? That VGA’s better? Fine VGA is da bomb, it is as close to perfection as the HS51 gets. Their does that help your ego? Feel better?

HDMI needs help it is a flawed connection, I think we can all agree on that in some way or another. So let’s drop this never ending debate, HDMI vs. VGA and band together as a group and hopefully we can get this fixed. What do you say SOWK?

Originally posted by Zip3kx07
What do you want to here SOWK? That VGA’s better? Fine VGA is da bomb, it is as close to perfection as the HS51 gets. Their does that help your ego? Feel better?

HDMI needs help it is a flawed connection, I think we can all agree on that in some way or another. So let’s drop this never ending debate, HDMI vs. VGA and band together as a group and hopefully we can get this fixed. What do you say SOWK?

Sounds good to me!

Later tonight I will post what I need from my HDMI!

Greetings,

I am about to pull the plug on the HS51 myself. I currently have the HS10 and have been happy with it for the most part.

I have to tell you that I have been following this thread for some time and have grown sick and tired of the VGA versus HDMI debate.

SOWK, let it die. I think that you have said all there is to say. Let the thread get back to other discussions regarding the unit's performance. If anyone raises any questions regarding the VGA input I am sure you will be more than happy to chime in.

I found a forum member who lives only a few minutes from me who owns the HS51. I will be going over to his place to have a look this week.


Regards,

Originally posted by sharkbait006
I've had the HS51 for a couple months now. I'm projecting onto a Parkland screen and I've been having some keystone problems (i think.)

The width on the left side of the image is larger than the width of the right side. I've tried messing around with the keystone with no luck.

Is it something wrong with my projector or am I missing something here.

Thanks

Tell us a little bit about your setup. Where is the projector in reference to the screen? Have you tried turning the projector a little and then recentering the image with the lens shift control? I had my 51 setup on the coffee table to the far right of the screen for a while. Having to shift the image that far over does cause some geometric distortion.

Originally posted by SOWK
OK I will be more respectfull to the HDMI. But the next time someones says HDMI looks better then VGA, its fair game! And I will win and prove my point! Which I have done all along.


Seriously though? How about moving the VGA vs HDMI debate to a new thread... maybe call it "SOWK Wars: The Revenge Of The VGA". Surely it's become worthy of it's own thread by now.

I used to look to this thread for very useful assessments regarding this projector's performance and user impressions. But now I have to wade through a ton of this useless crusading.

Seriously dude.. we got the point, whether some of us agree with you or not, this forum should not be a place for you to persist till you "win".

If you can't help but feel the need for satisfaction, please for the love of all that is holy, at the very least, stick it in it's very own, self contained thread. So that guys like me who have absolutely no interest in that particular debate any longer (you had me at "hello"... but after hearing "hello" over and over and over again, you've pretty much lost me) can avoid it altogether.

The width on the left side of the image is larger than the width of the right side. I've tried messing around with the keystone with no luck.


If it's ain't the keystone, your PJ seating is not level.

I second that.

Re: moving HDMI vs VGA to a new thread

I third that.


SFNSXguy

I fourth that... oh wait? lol! look what happened to the thread. no one is posting anymore. I think we may only see like one or two posts a day now!

:(

Are any of you HS51 owners thinking of purchasing the Chromavue screen? Or is it too small for your needs?

I'm currently on the fence regarding both theprojector and the screen. Hoping the local Sonystyle store gets them in so I can see how they work together.

I would also like the HDMI vs VGA discussion moved to a new thread. I have been reading this thread for a while and though I personaly prefer using the VGA input to the HDMI, I would sometimes like to read about other subjects on this official thread (I would also prefer reading about no subject at all if nobody has anything else to say.....!)

Originally posted by SOWK
I fourth that... oh wait? lol! look what happened to the thread. no one is posting anymore. I think we may only see like one or two posts a day now!

:( http://dontpokebadgers.com/xamphear/rollbarf.gif

Thats a disturbing Smiley!

Originally posted by SOWK
Thats a disturbing Smiley!
Not half as disturbing as what you continually spew.

Seriously, though - about the only entertainment I get anymore is the large volume of comments on your posts. Of course, even those aren't half as entertaining as you missing the slams and digs in them all. . .

- Dale Adams

Yes can we please either move the vga - hdmi debate or just drop it completely. Its going nowhere fast. Its almost like sowk doesnt want us to find a "cure" for 1:1 mapping over hdmi just so he can be correct and pat himself on the back. Not trying to stir you up sowk but from an outside postion this is what it looks like to alot of us. The future is digital not analog vga and not dvi to analog vga adaptors. (not that there isnt a need for them for the older equipment without dvi or hdmi) But lets just drop it and try and work on something more fruitful. thanks jeff

Assuming both the VGA and HDMI on the Sony had 1:1 pixel mapping, no doubt the HDMI interface would be the one of choice for people who had the option.

As it presently stands this appears not to be the case. So why has not Sony exploited the full potential of the HDMI. Perhaps SWOK as well as others with contacts at Sony could put some of their ample passion and energy into investigating this issue. The answer to this question could benefit us all. :)

Bytehoven,
Have you deleted your earlier posts as I dont seem to see them yet they are quoted? You are not in my ignore list.

Also an AIM box - what do you use AIM kit for? datalogging?

You should see how you guys are rambling on about it now! I havent made on statment about the you know what since Zip3kx07 asked me to join up with you guy for a fight for a better HDMI!

Look at all the posts after 3790, if you guys werent posting about this issue, there would have been only 1 more post.

But I will move it to another thread when I have time to take wonderful real world shots, not just some crappy DVD optimzer flawed screenshots.
No upscaling for my shots.

All will be true 720P

I will do some shots of Text at 720P, Photos at 720P

Xbox game(s) at 720P

And an HD 720P movie

And an HD 720P movie trailer

HDMI

Byte, or anyone who can contact Sony...

To get what you guys are looking for from HDMI you need to inform Sony that they need to allow us to turn off the proccessing the Sony is doing.

I want a setting for internal proccessing on/off
I want a setting for internal aspect ratio 4x3/16x9

So no proccessing but leave the scaler on for 1080i/1080p/480i/480p

BTW... This will fix everything you guys have been looking for, and even I would use HDMI all the time!

byte that is the funniest thing I have seen in a while. I am laghing my a@$ off!!!! :) jeff

p.s. ya i agree sowk, the processing needs to be able to be turned off.. I dont understand why an hdmi digital signal needs to be re-processed at all on the display side. Is sony waiting for us to fix THEIR problem?

Originally posted by jeffropaige
byte that is the funniest thing I have seen in a while. I am laghing my a@$ off!!!! :) jeff

p.s. ya i agree sowk, the processing needs to be able to be turned off.. I dont understand why an hdmi digital signal needs to be re-processed at all on the display side. Is sony waiting for us to fix THEIR problem?

The Funny thing is there can be no fix for the HDMI unless Sony fixes it!
No scaler, No outboard processor, nothing untill they turn that "great" proccessing is turned off. ;p

If I see one more profesional review say how great the internal proccessing is on this Sony, I'm going to flip!

yep true. It seems like it wouldnt be that hard of a fix to me, but i dont know the inner workings of the hs51. But if I built it like sony did I would think I would know. Maybe they just dont care, but I do know that they are losing a ton of sales to the ae700 and z3. The hs51s arent moving off the shelves like they are. Plus they are less expensive. :) jeff

p.s. byte i thought you had an inside track on communicating with sony whats the word have they given up on fixing this thing? (hdmi 1:1)

Originally posted by Dale Adams

Seriously, though - about the only entertainment I get anymore is the large volume of comments on your posts. Of course, even those aren't half as entertaining as you missing the slams and digs in them all. . .

- Dale Adams

Thats one reason I was doin it in the first place.

And yess I do see all the slams and digs. But I wont retailiate, I did once and got kicked off for a couple of days. That wasn't fun, so I let them fly!



But please everyone look at two posts above of mine, as it is what we need to fix HDMI!

Well, just in case any new readers stop by this thread.... I have hdmi from my sony 975 dvd player and I couldn't be happier. Awesome image on my screen. I'm enjoying every minute of the movies we are viewing.

Originally posted by larsil
Well, just in case any new readers stop by this thread.... I have hdmi from my sony 975 dvd player and I couldn't be happier. Awesome image on my screen. I'm enjoying every minute of the movies we are viewing.

Well you could be, and thats what were working on! :)

It's a shame that the usefulness of this thread has declined at such a rapid rate. Debates are healthy if they are conducted in a mature fashion without attitude or malice. It's OK to disagree, you don't have to force your opinion on others. The forum is to discuss (by definition), not argue. Any new users that come across the thread at this point have to wonder where all the constructive info has gone.


Regards,

Dissapointed AVS Member

Gentlemen,

Well, we finally got our new theater online this past weekend (online, but not nearly finished, of course) with an opening night showing of "The Incredibles."

Like many of you, I was blown away by the HS-51's out of the box performance. . .but have now had time to start noticing some minor problems. ;)

On 16:9 material (e.g., The Incredibles), slight pixel misalignment really isn't that noticeable. You can mainly see it as a faint line near the sides of the image. . .I suppose this is where one or more of the three panels don't perfectly "overlap."

On 2.35:1 material, however, (e.g., LOTR), I still see those horizontal lines near the top and bottom of the image. . .even though the image is nowhere near the edge of the panels. Can someone explain this to me? Is this pixel misalignment, or some other issue?

Also, one more question. . .is there some kind of time limit for sending a projector to Sony for alignment, overscan, or other issues of this type? Is it just the normal warranty period?

Thanks,
Tori Harris

Originally posted by DaveHe
It's a shame that the usefulness of this thread has declined at such a rapid rate. Debates are healthy if they are conducted in a mature fashion without attitude or malice. It's OK to disagree, you don't have to force your opinion on others. The forum is to discuss (by definition), not argue. Any new users that come across the thread at this point have to wonder where all the constructive info has gone.
Agreed. And I apologize for my one lapse.

A plea to the forum moderator:
This was at one time a very informative and useful thread. That has been destroyed largely by the continued posting of a single person. Please, please do something to resolve this. We would all like to see this thread return to being informative and useful.

- Dale Adams

Dale, the moderator is not going to remove threads because someone is discussing an issue you do not like . All you have to do is ignore the posts and move on as if they do not exist. But the bulk of the past two pages are you and others complaining about his posts and then him responding to you complaining about his posts, and on and on. Both sides have to stand down, not just one or its never going to end...

Brian

Usabrian
could you give us a comparison of the HS51's PQ with and without the IMX lens?

HoustonHoyaFan,

Good luck getting any questions answered. . .it seems the regulars here are so busy picking at each other that they no longer respond to legitimate HS-51 questions! :confused:

Since we're all so completely off topic. . .can anyone identify the obscure reference in the subject line?

Tori

Originally posted by usabrian
Dale, the moderator is not going to remove threads because someone is discussing an issue you do not like .
And I wouldn't expect that. I wasn't implying that the thread should be removed. It also doesn't have anything to do with liking or not liking an issue. It's a matter of there being a disruptive factor which is preventing an overall topic of interest to many forum members from being discussed in a reasoned and at least semi-intelligent and literate fashion.

All you have to do is ignore the posts and move on as if they do not exist.
Well, I tried that by ignoring the original response to me (many pages ago). But it only works if everyone does it, of course, and that's not happening.

But the bulk of the past two pages are you and others complaining about his posts and then him responding to you complaining about his posts, and on and on. Both sides have to stand down, not just one or its never going to end...
If it were only 2 pages I wouldn't worry about it. But it goes back far enough that the usefulness of the entire thread has been jeopardized.

Very well, then - no more responses on my part. We'll see how it goes.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by harristl

On 16:9 material (e.g., The Incredibles), slight pixel misalignment really isn't that noticeable. You can mainly see it as a faint line near the sides of the image. . .I suppose this is where one or more of the three panels don't perfectly "overlap."

On 2.35:1 material, however, (e.g., LOTR), I still see those horizontal lines near the top and bottom of the image. . .even though the image is nowhere near the edge of the panels. Can someone explain this to me? Is this pixel misalignment, or some other issue?



Tori - please send along a pic if you can so I can tell you what I think it may be. I'm not sure what you are talking about here!

-SOWK

Originally posted by DaveHe
It's a shame that the usefulness of this thread has declined at such a rapid rate. Debates are healthy if they are conducted in a mature fashion without attitude or malice. It's OK to disagree, you don't have to force your opinion on others. The forum is to discuss (by definition), not argue. Any new users that come across the thread at this point have to wonder where all the constructive info has gone.


Regards,

Dissapointed AVS Member

I'm a new reader who is considering this projector and I'm not disappointed.
It takes all types to make a virtual community and this forum obviously has both mental and emotional grown-ups as well as mental and emotional children.
It takes me mere seconds to scroll past the children while continuing to learn from the grownups and appreciate their contributions.
Not a problem for me.

Back on Topic.

I was planning on sending my unit in for the firmware update, but am not sure if I should. Is there any consensus on this. I mainly watch DVD's and plan on adding HD in the next year. I am also in the market for an upscaling DVD player (Denon 2910). Is this something I should do? I plan on going HDMI for the connection. I am a newbie to FP so I don't have a significant knowledge base to stand on.

My digital camera does a rather poor job in low light conditions, but the attached image should give you an idea of the line I mentioned in my earlier post (in this case at the top of the image in LOTR). Note that the image does not fill the screen vertically since it has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

Pixel misalignment, bad component cable, or something else?

Thanks,
Tori

I'm having a problem with my general settings on the HS51 when I'm watching D* with a HD video receiver. I am running the D* receiver to the HS-51 with a DVI output to HDMI on the HS51 cable. I have calibrated the HS51 using AVIA and hooking up my DVD player (Toshiba) with a HDMI output to HDMI on the HS51 ... so my hope is that I've at least calibrated properly for the HDMI input on the HS51.

Here's my current settings, (which were adjusted at night) on a Stewart Firehawk

Contrast 72
Brightness 62
Color 50
Hue 50
Sharpness 0
Black and Gamma, off
Color temp = medium
Iris = auto
Lamp= low

What I get when I am watching HDTV is an over-emphasis on yellow... If someone has on a yellow hat or a yellow vest, it just jumps right off of the screen at you. However, when I am watching a darker show (like 24 on Fox HD), it seems that I need to crank up the brightness in order to see background detail (or the folds on someone's dark suit).

I am concerned that there may be different color standards for SD (via the DVD) and HD. If this is so, how are you all calibrating for the HD color standards?

If anyone has sucessfully dealt with this problem (I don't have colorfacts, etc) by adjusting their projector, please let me know. To keep the topic somewhat relevant, keep in mind the following:
1. I am using HDMI, not VGA (whether you like it or not)
2. I am feeding via a receiver, not HTPC (whether you like it or not)

So, If you have any constructive suggestions on what I can do to improve my picture by adjusting the settings (without VGA or HTPC), I would love to hear them. I have tried to go in and customize the color inputs (user 1,2,3)
but I don't know what I should use as a reference, since I don't know of any HD channel that broadcasts test patterns.

Thanks,
Friar

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Usabrian
could you give us a comparison of the HS51's PQ with and without the IMX lens?

Yes please, I would like to hear about this as well, if SDE seems to be one of the Sony's complaints I would love to see how well the IMAX lens does.

Let's just please try to move on here. If certain people want to debate something until they a blue in the face there really isn't anything that we can do about that. The less people talk about it and just try to ignore those that they do not agree with... the sooner they will go away.

Please try and carry on.
Kyser

EDIT: SOWK has even commented on the fact that everyone keeps discussing the "VGA debate" even when he isn't. He's right.
Keep talking about issues that "you" want to discuss and others will join in.

Originally posted by friar
I'm having a problem with my general settings on the HS51 when I'm watching D* with a HD video receiver. I am running the D* receiver to the HS-51 with a DVI output to HDMI on the HS51 cable. I have calibrated the HS51 using AVIA and hooking up my DVD player (Toshiba) with a HDMI output to HDMI on the HS51 ... so my hope is that I've at least calibrated properly for the HDMI input on the HS51.

Here's my current settings, (which were adjusted at night) on a Stewart Firehawk

Contrast 72
Brightness 62
Color 50
Hue 50
Sharpness 0
Black and Gamma, off
Color temp = medium
Iris = auto
Lamp= low

What I get when I am watching HDTV is an over-emphasis on yellow... If someone has on a yellow hat or a yellow vest, it just jumps right off of the screen at you. However, when I am watching a darker show (like 24 on Fox HD), it seems that I need to crank up the brightness in order to see background detail (or the folds on someone's dark suit).

I am concerned that there may be different color standards for SD (via the DVD) and HD. If this is so, how are you all calibrating for the HD color standards?

If anyone has sucessfully dealt with this problem (I don't have colorfacts, etc) by adjusting their projector, please let me know. To keep the topic somewhat relevant, keep in mind the following:
1. I am using HDMI, not VGA (whether you like it or not)
2. I am feeding via a receiver, not HTPC (whether you like it or not)

So, If you have any constructive suggestions on what I can do to improve my picture by adjusting the settings (without VGA or HTPC), I would love to hear them. I have tried to go in and customize the color inputs (user 1,2,3)
but I don't know what I should use as a reference, since I don't know of any HD channel that broadcasts test patterns.

Thanks,
Friar

HD-Net was broadcasting HD SMTPE Color Bars, Geometry Patterns and Gray Scales every Tuesday Morning at 8:00

I am not sure if they are still doing this each week.

Also this quote from member PerfKnee posted on the Tivo Community HD Forum might be helpfull to you regarding calibration using the HDNet COLOR BAR TEST PATTERN:

--quote--
Note that HDTV signals generally have no hue or saturation adjustments. The method above for adjusting the color bars above is designed for calibrating the NTSC color decoder in an NTSC set. There is no such color decoder involved in an HDTV monitor displaying HDTV signals, so those patterns don't apply. In fact adjusting to those patterns may make the color worse. The "color decoding" in an HDTV stream occurs in the MPEG decoder in the STB. It's not adjustable and barring malfunction always works perfectly, so it doesn't need adjustment.

You can make those colors worse because nonlinearities in your grayscale can cause those patterns to indicate that adjustments are needed, but the adjustments indicated will be orthogonal to the adjustments that would improve grayscale; the hut/saturation controls don't fix grayscale linearity problems, and adjusting them unnecessarily can cause grayscale problems.

Summary: Use color gels and the NTSC color bar test signals only to adjust hue/saturation on NTSC signals, never on HDTV signals.
--- end quote ---

Originally posted by harristl
My digital camera does a rather poor job in low light conditions, but the attached image should give you an idea of the line I mentioned in my earlier post (in this case at the top of the image in LOTR). Note that the image does not fill the screen vertically since it has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

Pixel misalignment, bad component cable, or something else?

Thanks,
Tori

Well that is not pixel misalingment, It is also probably not the component cables. Do you have any other display device you can hook it up to to see if you get the same results?

Make sure the Sony is in perfect manual focus... Make sure your sharpness setting is correct. Test out different cables.

Also maybe a different DVD player will fix the problem.

-SOWK

(p.s. try this and let me know if it ocrrects your problem)

Originally posted by gdemott

You can make those colors worse because nonlinearities in your grayscale can cause those patterns to indicate that adjustments are needed, but the adjustments indicated will be orthogonal to the adjustments that would improve grayscale; the hut/saturation controls don't fix grayscale linearity problems, and adjusting them unnecessarily can cause grayscale problems.

Summary: Use color gels and the NTSC color bar test signals only to adjust hue/saturation on NTSC signals, never on HDTV signals.
--- end quote ---

gdemott, thanks for the information. Assuming that what I am seeing is due to a greyscale problem, is there any way for me to test/fix/adjust my greyscale without expensive equipment?

Thanks,
Friar

I have a real question... hehe

Filters...

What are filters for projectors?

What is the Filter that allows for the 6000:1 contrast ratio to become real
Is there a web link to it?

Also are they easy to install?

Originally posted by harristl
My digital camera does a rather poor job in low light conditions, but the attached image should give you an idea of the line I mentioned in my earlier post (in this case at the top of the image in LOTR). Note that the image does not fill the screen vertically since it has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

Pixel misalignment, bad component cable, or something else?

Thanks,
Tori

That's the same problem I was having except it was a border/halo around the entire image. I called Sony and they said it was a defective projector. I ended up returning the projector for a refund.

The good news is my new one will be here tomorrow. I got tired of waiting for the new stock and asked my local dealer to send one in to Sony for upgrade. They did so free of charge and it only took a week and a half. We'll find out tomorrow what the result is.

I also have this"border" around the entire image. Does anyone have a phone number to call about this. Especially if they are going to give a new unit. Does it matter how many hours you have on the current unit?

Originally posted by harristl
My digital camera does a rather poor job in low light conditions, but the attached image should give you an idea of the line I mentioned in my earlier post (in this case at the top of the image in LOTR). Note that the image does not fill the screen vertically since it has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

Pixel misalignment, bad component cable, or something else?

Thanks,
Tori
Does this line that you see occur with all sources? I saw something like this when using my HTPC over Input A, but it was only on the bottom of 2.35 movies. I never saw it with my Sony DVD player over HDMI. I can't check anything right now because my HS-51 has not come back from service, 16 days and counting.

I don't have an HTPC, but I'll try different component cables and S video and let you know what I see.

The picture I posted really doesn't do the image justice. It's not so much a halo effect. . .just a line about 5 or so pixels from the edge of the image (regardless of the size of the picture). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's the cable. . .I went relatively cheap and it's a 25 foot run.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Usabrian
could you give us a comparison of the HS51's PQ with and without the IMX lens?

Its an improvement of a few feet, which does make a difference in my theater. I sit at 1.5xwidth and 2xwidth respectively. Without the IMX the picture is intolerable for me at 1.5x width due to screen door, noise, etc but it's beautiful at 2Xwidth. With the IMX lens the picture is now quite tolerable at 1.5X width (but still occasionally I can see noise or sde). The picture is beautiful and artifact free at about 1.6 to 1.75Xwidth. So to sum up it gains me about half a screen width in seating distance. Hope this helps. I am very picky though, others may be less critical.

Brian

Originally posted by usabrian
So to sum up it gains me about half a screen width in seating distance. Hope this helps. I am very picky though, others may be less critical.

Brian
Any down side that you can see? loss of contrast, loss of lumens, ...?

Originally posted by usabrian
Its an improvement of a few feet, which does make a difference in my theater. I sit at 1.5xwidth and 2xwidth respectively. Without the IMX the picture is intolerable for me at 1.5x width due to screen door, noise, etc but it's beautiful at 2Xwidth. With the IMX lens the picture is now quite tolerable at 1.5X width (but still occasionally I can see noise or sde). The picture is beautiful and artifact free at about 1.6 to 1.75Xwidth. So to sum up it gains me about half a screen width in seating distance. Hope this helps. I am very picky though, others may be less critical.

Brian

I too have an IMX lens and a 51. I find the two major down sides to the 51 to be 1. SDE and 2. color convergence. The first 51 that I had very poor convergence. I found this to limit the effectiveness of the IMX lens. Because the convergence of the colors was not consistent throughout the entire image the effect of the IMX was different in different areas of the screen. No amount of adjustment could fix this. I traded that projector in on another one that has much better convergence. The IMX lens works very well on it. I too am very picky and could not fully enjoy the projector on a 110" wide screen at a seating distance of 175". With the IMX lens SDE is very very difficult to see at the same seating position. The one thing I wish I would have done differently would be to have ordered an IMX lens with an external mount. This thing is heavy. While I have mounted it on the lens of the 51 I'm not real comfortable with the situation. I would feel much better if it was mounted to something else. I may build a mount for it so I can remove it from the projector.

Ok, guys. I tried multiple component cables of multiple lengths. I did the same with S-video. I also tried my XBox to eliminate the DVD player as the source of the problem. No matter what I feed this projector, I get a dark line several pixels in from the edge of the image. I have attached another picture for reference.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, have any of you noticed that you can move your lens from side to side slightly (maybe 1/8")? I noticed it when focusing and zooming. It's pretty annoying because it's easy to bump the image off center.

I think all this adds up to a box addressed to Laredo in my near future. . .unless someone has another suggestion.

Thanks!

Originally posted by keenan
Yes please, I would like to hear about this as well, if SDE seems to be one of the Sony's complaints I would love to see how well the IMAX lens does.

We started cutting into my walls and ceiling to run cable from the source devices (in the front of the room) to the projector and from the screen to the power outlet, A/V processor and projector (the latter two for trigger purposes).

I am hoping to have all of the construction work finished by Friday so we can get to the fun stuff, you know, connecting and calibrating all of the toys.

I also have the IMX lens for this projector, so if and when all is done and correctly performing, I will PM you.

--------------------------------
Ron Party

Originally posted by Ron Party
We started cutting into my walls and ceiling to run cable from the source devices (in the front of the room) to the projector and from the screen to the power outlet, A/V processor and projector (the latter two for trigger purposes).

I am hoping to have all of the construction work finished by Friday so we can get to the fun stuff, you know, connecting and calibrating all of the toys.

I also have the IMX lens for this projector, so if and when all is done and correctly performing, I will PM you.

--------------------------------
Ron Party

Thanks Ron, I figured you would let me know, that's why I haven't bugged you yet...:D

I have the same border around the edge. I have it on all sources. I've tried 2 different DVD players and the XBOX and Playstation 2. I have 15ft component from my DVD. I second the question, has anyone else run into this? Will Laredo fix the issue or replace the unit?

Have some points to what I have concluded after reading AVS, component and prisjakt forums (last two swedsih ones) and also after testing som with my pretty recently arrived HS-50 (besides the shootout i made between HS-50 Sharp XVZ2K and Yamaha DPX-1000 earlier on this year to come to a conclusion which one to buy).

1.
For European owners:
The last thing I read about the pixel alignment was that a fix is ongoing. I will translate something that was said on the Prisjakt forum:


Today i got the lovely message that all projectors that are sent in for this problem are now sent to the factory in Belgium where they are supposed to fix this error ASAP.
But I guess it will still take some time, but XXXXXX on inside service said that they have the possibility to controll all parts in a totaly different matter there.
Anyway - the problem should now be at the main office in Japan so that everybody that orders new PJs will hopefully redcieve correct ones.
One can only hope.


2.
After trying out some different pixel alignment pattern on my own PJ by feeding the PJ a 1280*720 signal via RGB-HV (using powerstrip) i came to the conclusion that my blue is about 0.5 to 1.5 pixels off depending on where in the picture i look. In the middle it is less in the corners it is more.

The attatched picture whows my offset with the red just some off and the blue about 1 pixel off. The dot patterns in the pic are 1*1, 2*2, 3*3, 4*4 pixels and some pattern squares. It is of course a blurry macro photo but u get the point.

I have been trying to understand the factory menus and there seems to be some A/D values for R G and B - does naybody know what theese does?
I have also heard a rumour that small alignment errors (less than 2 pixels) can be corrected via software. Anyone who have heard this too?

3.
As far as I see it HDMI prior to the upgrade (that has yeat not reached europe and the HS50) was 1:1 mapped but with blanking. The new firmware destroyed the 1:1 mapping but removed the blanking - this is my conclusion since now there is overscan instead and if the PJ is fed a 720P signal and there is overscan it can NOT be 1:1 any more.

4.
RGB vs HDMI discussion
Will not dig deep into this but RGB gives 1:1 no doubt.
Though i really believed that HDMI 720P gave 1:1 prior the upgrade only it blanked of some of the picture info via the blanking frame (like reversed overscan). Thus not showing the entire picture but the part that was showed was correctly mapped.
Allthough as I see from your discussions there are still som internal processing made. Why Sony choose process an allready scaled progressive signal - I dont know since it takes the edge of a good DVD player or scaler by destroying the once perfect image. This was also my conclusion when i tested the HS-50 from 1 Samsung HD935, one Samsung HD945 and one Denon DVD-3910. Normally the Denon has a significantly sharper and more detailed image but the differences here were quite small.
I normally love the 3910 but as a combo to the HS50 it does not look good as it ought to if the signal was just kept unprocessed in the Sony - or rather was not reporcessed).

Probably this player would be better for picture quality if they only updated the RGB to 1280*720
NeuNevo DV308 player link (http://www.neuneo.com/body/product/HVD208/specs.asp)
* The bad thing it does not support 1280*720 over the VGA out
*The good thing is that is supports 1080P !! on the component output

A mix with this WMV9, WLAN, RJ45, USB2.0, DVD-player would be a good thing (u lucky guys that can buy it over the net in the Us - not yeat porssible to buy here in Europe :( )
IO data Avel link player (http://www.iodata.com/news/releases.php?newsID=29&tot=20&ts=4&tsc=22)

Its a pity though that noone (what i know of) has come up with a player that supports all of the above AND scaled 720P on the RGBHV port and WMV9 720P on the same port.
If they can make this feature rich players for such a low price I bet that they could creat a really good combined player for 1.5*price :)

The sad thing with those players is (probably) that even if they are feature packed - the picture and especially sound wont be that great. But wouldnt it be nice if Denon and those companies worked in team. A good sounding and looking player with all the ports and formats that you like :)

Ok - now we are back on topic talking enhancements - lets keep it that way and forget about old "groll" as we would have said in sweden.
Shake hands and make friends anyone who is on the war-path.
We are a team that will probably somewhat affect Sony - we dont want the team firghing eachother. I dont believe that makes a good impression if some Sony technician should happen to read this thread :)


Regards
Boogie - previous DLP fan - man
ps
Never mind the date on the pixture - i just havent set the date - it is only a couple of weeks old actually ;)
ds

Originally posted by harristl
Ok, guys. I tried multiple component cables of multiple lengths. I did the same with S-video. I also tried my XBox to eliminate the DVD player as the source of the problem. No matter what I feed this projector, I get a dark line several pixels in from the edge of the image. I have attached another picture for reference.
This could be an artifact of the HS51's scaler. Some scaler implementations will produce either a dark or light colored line around a dark-to-light edge in the image. The position of the line can vary depending on how the scaler is designed. If the line is always the same distance from the edge, then this is a likely cause.

Letterboxed images are a good test case for this. You can see the line on the top and bottom of the image near the letterbox borders, just a bit in from the edge.

Do you have any way to feed the projector a different resolution image (native rate would be best) from an alternate source - e.g., a scaler, scaling DVD player, HTPC, etc.? If so, see if you still see the line with one of these sources.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by harristl
Ok, guys. I tried multiple component cables of multiple lengths. I did the same with S-video. I also tried my XBox to eliminate the DVD player as the source of the problem. No matter what I feed this projector, I get a dark line several pixels in from the edge of the image. I have attached another picture for reference.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, have any of you noticed that you can move your lens from side to side slightly (maybe 1/8")? I noticed it when focusing and zooming. It's pretty annoying because it's easy to bump the image off center.

I think all this adds up to a box addressed to Laredo in my near future. . .unless someone has another suggestion.

Thanks!

That line is NOT looking good. Your second pic is more evident of that fact. Call SONY now, before it gets any worse. Have them email you a printable UPS label so you don't have to pay shipping. That's what I did, and they emailed me a UPS label to print the following day.

Originally posted by harristl
Ok, guys. I tried multiple component cables of multiple lengths. I did the same with S-video. I also tried my XBox to eliminate the DVD player as the source of the problem. No matter what I feed this projector, I get a dark line several pixels in from the edge of the image. I have attached another picture for reference.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, have any of you noticed that you can move your lens from side to side slightly (maybe 1/8")? I noticed it when focusing and zooming. It's pretty annoying because it's easy to bump the image off center.

I think all this adds up to a box addressed to Laredo in my near future. . .unless someone has another suggestion.

Thanks!

Do a have a pc you can hook up thru VGA?

if you get it thru VGA your unit is in need of a fix.

boogiem your panels are defintely misaligned, as far as #3 on your list I dont think the 720p with the blanking issue could be 1:1 unless sony was acutually using a panel larger than 1280x720 ,physically it would not be 1:1. jeff

Originally posted by jeffropaige
boogiem your panels are defintely misaligned, as far as #3 on your list I dont think the 720p with the blanking issue could be 1:1 unless sony was acutually using a panel larger than 1280x720 ,physically it would not be 1:1. jeff
It could still be 1:1 with the outer pixels blanked. This is not as uncommon as some people think. From the WSR review of the Yamaha DPX-1200, a $12,495 DC3 DLP:

"Except for some blanking along the edges of the frame, the DPX-1200 produces a spatially “pixel perfect” image when its HDMI input is driven by 720p digital video signals. When the Sharpness control is off, each visible pixel from the source is precisely mapped to a single projector pixel,without scaling or edge enhancement. ... However, there are two blank pixel columns (vertical lines) on both the left and right sides of the screen, and three blank pixel rows (horizontal lines) at the bottom of the screen. There are no horizontal or vertical position adjustments for HDMI (or DVI) signals to make the blank pixels visible."

Originally posted by jeffropaige
as far as #3 on your list I dont think the 720p with the blanking issue could be 1:1 unless sony was acutually using a panel larger than 1280x720 ,physically it would not be 1:1. jeff
Actually, I think he has it pegged exactly.

You can still have 1:1 mapping even though part of the source video signal is blacked-out around the edges by the projector. The pixels on the periphery of the projector's imaging elements are simply blanked electronically inside the projector and are simply not illuminated. There may or may not be useful image data in those areas , but it certainly is annoying of Sony to presume that there's not. My best guess as to their motivation would be to reduce the frequency of service & support calls from customers wondering why there was noise or small black bands on the sides or top/bottom of the image, which is very typical of many (most?) video sources.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Dale Adams
Actually, I think he has it pegged exactly.

You can still have 1:1 mapping even though part of the source video signal is blacked-out around the edges by the projector. The pixels on the periphery of the projector's imaging elements are simply blanked electronically inside the projector and are simply not illuminated. There may or may not be useful image data in those areas , but it certainly is annoying of Sony to presume that there's not. My best guess as to their motivation would be to reduce the frequency of service & support calls from customers wondering why there was noise or small black bands on the sides or top/bottom of the image, which is very typical of many (most?) video sources.

- Dale Adams

Just so I understand, before the "fix" Sony had applied a "blanking" or border around the edge of the 1:1 image, to avoid possible video noise. IOW, before was 1:1. Now, after the fix, it appears Sony has implemented some overscan to avoid that possible noise, but in doing so the image cannot be 1:1 mapped anymore...

Not i been seeing from hdmi via htpc, before and after the fix is same old not 1:1 mapping, not pass tho. Apply 1 pixel line clearly see TWO blurring line via hdmi. Right as it's now overscanned with blanking removed.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Not i been seeing from hdmi via htpc, before and after the fix is same old not 1:1 mapping, not pass tho. Apply 1 pixel line clearly see TWO blurring line via hdmi. Right as it's now overscanned with blanking removed.

Here is why I appreciate the slight overscan (we are talking less than 2.5%) that SONY is now using on the HDMI input: Why do DVDs have black borders? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497208)

I always had to zoom in when watching DVDs or I'd get that silly black border on DVDs. This was before the software fix from Laredo. After the fix, I can now watch all DVDs on my HS51, and none will have the black border on the sides. I don't have to zoom in to compensate for DVD "pillarboxing".

FYI: Most DVDs/TV Programming have this black border (pillarbox) on the sides.

Originally posted by keenan
Just so I understand, before the "fix" Sony had applied a "blanking" or border around the edge of the 1:1 image, to avoid possible video noise. IOW, before was 1:1. Now, after the fix, it appears Sony has implemented some overscan to avoid that possible noise, but in doing so the image cannot be 1:1 mapped anymore...
Yes, that's exactly how I understand the 'before' and 'after' behavior.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Rieper
Here is why I appreciate the slight overscan (we are talking less than 2.5%) that SONY is now using on the HDMI input: Why do DVDs have black borders? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497208)

I always had to zoom in when watching DVDs or I'd get that silly black border on DVDs. This was before the software fix from Laredo. After the fix, I can now watch all DVDs on my HS51, and none will have the black border on the sides. I don't have to zoom in to compensate for DVD "pillarboxing".

FYI: Most DVDs/TV Programming have this black border (pillarbox) on the sides.

DVD Black Borders...

Another reason for black borders is that some wide screen film transfers are done at 1.85 and not 1.78

Hd Tv has adopted 16x9 (1:78)

On 16:9 Flat Panel Systems without overscan and true 1:1 mapping a 1:85 movie will have black borders on the sides and top. This is not seen however when overscan or scaling is used to fill the panel.

Gary

I have been away from this thread for awhile enjoying my projector, so I need to apologize in advance for changing gears here on you.

I am ready for my first tweak and wanted the input of other owners. I am debating between an IMX lens or an outboard scaler. My question is which will give me the biggest improvement for the money. Also, if it is a scaler which is the scaler of choice for the HS51. I am running a D* HD Tivo and a Pioneer Elite 59AVi both through the HDMI.

Thanks for the input in advance.

Originally posted by Rieper
Here is why I appreciate the slight overscan (we are talking less than 2.5%) that SONY is now using on the HDMI input: Why do DVDs have black borders? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497208)

I always had to zoom in when watching DVDs or I'd get that silly black border on DVDs. This was before the software fix from Laredo. After the fix, I can now watch all DVDs on my HS51, and none will have the black border on the sides. I don't have to zoom in to compensate for DVD "pillarboxing".

FYI: Most DVDs/TV Programming have this black border (pillarbox) on the sides.
That level of overscan may be fine for most (but not all) DVDs. The problem is that you don't want the DVD player to scale to 720p, and then have the projector scale that 720p signal just a bit more to produce the overscan. The original 480p image is being up-scaled twice, and that isn't going to help your image quality. You may be better off just feeding the projector a 480p signal so that it's only scaled once.

The situation is much worse if you have a native 720p source, as the projector will always scale it so that it doesn't map 1:1 to the projector's pixels. In this case you don't want the image scaled at all since each source pixel should map directly to one of the projector's pixels. The original, non overscanning, mode would actually be better here. If you're going to lose portions of the image periphery anyway, you at least want to get the 1:1 mapping.

- Dale Adams

HI all I went for a demo of a new sony hs50 today they just got it in 2 days ago boxed unopend brand new.

Well i checked the rom version
ROM 01.01/01.01
SC ROM 01.01
IP ROM 01.02

Its the old one and has not been upgraded to the new rom shame.

The panel alinement was disgusting it was of by 2 to 3 pixels on the green and 2 pixels out on the blue it was hurendus.

Sony are still getting the old units thay only got 1 but i said to the manager it should have never left the factory it was the worst case i have seen.

The picture was exellent but never got a good go of it as i was not that interested becasue the picture looked out of focus becasue of the bad panel.

the serial number was i cant remember but it was 12800 or 11800 i can not remember if it was a 12 or 11.

Also went to my local hi-fi shop and thay said to me in 5 weeks time thay should have the new units and that thay would let me take it home to demo the projector so that i could adjust it and set it up the way i want this also letting me compair it to my sony hs10 with cr40 filter to see if its worth it.

The projected black was black so i have a feeling i will get one of these and also the best thing about it was i had to see if the power light was on as i could not hear the projector at all its so silent.

but i will keep you informed when i get a proper unit and i will take some pix to see the diffrence between the hs10 and hs50

sorry for the bad spelling and grama i am in a rush bye

Guys,

I've done a search, however, I can't seem to find out how to access the factory menu to check the ROM fix. Any help?

Thanks!

Well, I agreed with your assessments and decided now is as good a time as any to ship it to Sony. I spoke with Juan yesterday. He said it may very well be the 720p issue. I'm skeptical, but I printed several pictures and included a laundry list of problems.

Juan also indicated that the loose lens is also a recurring problem. For those of you considering shipment. . .check that lens and include it on your list if it's loose!

Mine is going out today. . .I'll keep you guys posted.

BTW, my unit is serial number 31579. I wonder if I'll get the same one back??!!;)

HI all I am going to demo a sony hs50 soon and would like to know what the best settings are for this projector I know many people on here have diffrent setting but i would like to know all of them so that i can test the projector at its best

what brightness, contrast and other setting do you use
what settings for the user and what colour temp

I diod have a quick go of one and it seemed the cinama was the best picture setting ???

would love to see them all before i go next time so that i can make my mind up there and then

Originally posted by docphi
Guys,

I've done a search, however, I can't seem to find out how to access the factory menu to check the ROM fix. Any help?

Thanks!

SERVICE AND FACTORY MENUS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4862442#post4862442

Gary

Originally posted by Dale Adams
That level of overscan may be fine for most (but not all) DVDs. The problem is that you don't want the DVD player to scale to 720p, and then have the projector scale that 720p signal just a bit more to produce the overscan. The original 480p image is being up-scaled twice, and that isn't going to help your image quality. You may be better off just feeding the projector a 480p signal so that it's only scaled once.

The situation is much worse if you have a native 720p source, as the projector will always scale it so that it doesn't map 1:1 to the projector's pixels. In this case you don't want the image scaled at all since each source pixel should map directly to one of the projector's pixels. The original, non overscanning, mode would actually be better here. If you're going to lose portions of the image periphery anyway, you at least want to get the 1:1 mapping.

- Dale Adams

So when using HDMI on this projector you are locked into the quality of the scaler Sony is using. I'm not sure I like that. Myself, with a 5900/SDI with the HD+/SDI, I would have preferred to output DVI to the Sony's HDMI input and have it unmolested. Otherwise the use of a outboard scaler becomes of much less value. To use the HD+/VGA-out to Sony/VGA-in is going to have two preferably unnecessary conversions done on the signal.

Are my assumptions correct here?

Originally posted by keenan
So when using HDMI on this projector you are locked into the quality of the scaler Sony is using. I'm not sure I like that. Myself, with a 5900/SDI with the HD+/SDI, I would have preferred to output DVI to the Sony's HDMI input and have it unmolested. Otherwise the use of a outboard scaler becomes of much less value. To use the HD+/VGA-out to Sony/VGA-in is going to have two preferably unnecessary conversions done on the signal.

Are my assumptions correct here?


......... To use the HD+/VGA-out to Sony/VGA-in is going to have two preferably unnecessary conversions done on the signal.? [/QUOTE]

Using your HD+/VGA scenario and the equipment you describe above I see it as one conversion which would be required of any DVD source. The SDI output is 480i and the iScanHD+ would scale the SDI output to 720p. If connected via VGA input there would be no scaling within the projector.

Your assumption about using HDMI is correct.

Gary

Greetings,

For those who have the HS10 and are considering upgrading to the HS51 I can tell you that there is a night and day difference between the two projectors in terms of contrast/black level.

I spent some time over at Gary's ( gdemott here on AVS ) house last night looking at his HS51. He has his mated with an Iscan HD + connected via VGA to his HS51. Image quality was awesome to say the least. Thanks again Gary !

I have a CC30R filter on my HS10 and comapred to the HS51 even with the Iris set to off it is no contest. I will be using the HS51 with a Da-lite high contrast cinema vision ( 1.1 gain ) gray screen. Based upon what I saw last night at Gary's ( he had some screen material samples ) I think I will like the pairing.

I am waiting for my dealer to get some of the " fixed " units in and will connect it to my Denon 3910 via 720p HDMI ( Y CR CB setting ) and my HD Cable box via DVI out ( using a DVI to HDMI adaptor ).

Any thoughts from anyone with any similarities in their setup?


Regards,

I think the 2 conversion he was talking about are D/A and A/D.

So when using HDMI on this projector you are locked into the quality of the scaler Sony is using. I'm not sure I like that. Myself, with a 5900/SDI with the HD+/SDI, I would have preferred to output DVI to the Sony's HDMI input and have it unmolested. Otherwise the use of a outboard scaler becomes of much less value. To use the HD+/VGA-out to Sony/VGA-in is going to have two preferably unnecessary conversions done on the signal.

Hate to admiit but that's the case. Only VGA is 1:1 mapped, pass tho that allow much superior outboard scaler or dvd player source with no conversion done on hs51.

Despite how much we may like hdmi, it sucks [edit : i meant stucks] on onboard processor. Which may not be a good thing for those with better scaler.

I'm confused. I have the HS51 with original software. I have an DVDO HD+. All of my components (Interga rec., Interga DVD, Sony VCR, Playstation, Comcast HiDef DVR box) go into the DVDO HD+ then from the DVDO's DVI out to the HS51's HDMI. This is my first home theater and based on the reviews they said this was the optimal solution. Is this not the case? Should I connect a different cable? What difference would I see. Right now it looks good to me...but maybe it could be better....Thank you for your input>>>>>

Originally posted by zeroendless
Hate to admiit but that's the case. Only VGA is 1:1 mapped, pass tho that allow much superior outboard scaler or dvd player source with no conversion done on hs51.

Despite how much we may like hdmi, it sucks on onboard processor. Which may not be a good thing for those with better scaler.

This begs a couple of questions then. How much does the d/a a/d conversions degrade image quality? What if anything is lost when using vga vs. hdmi (colorspace?)?

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
I'm confused. I have the HS51 with original software. I have an DVDO HD+. All of my components (Interga rec., Interga DVD, Sony VCR, Playstation, Comcast HiDef DVR box) go into the DVDO HD+ then from the DVDO's DVI out to the HS51's HDMI. This is my first home theater and based on the reviews they said this was the optimal solution. Is this not the case? Should I connect a different cable? What difference would I see. Right now it looks good to me...but maybe it could be better....Thank you for your input>>>>>

Yes if you use VGA, and output 1280X720 60Hz to the Sony input a in computer mode, you will see a great leap in image quality!

-SOWK

SOWK. Thanks. So what was the point of this $200 HDMI cable? Will I still need the DVDO HD+?

Originally posted by reaper
I think the 2 conversion he was talking about are D/A and A/D.

Exactly. Not a desirable scenario. So the end result is there is no way to get a pure digital signal path given the Sony's input configuration. I guess if the end result looks good it's okay, but it sure would be nice to take advantage of an unscaled HDMI input.

Originally posted by Justins123
This begs a couple of questions then. How much does the d/a a/d conversions degrade image quality?

I don't know how much it might degrade the PQ, but I don't see how it could help it...

My Receipt from Lorado says "Constant Weak/Excess Pictr". Do we know if that is the 720 fix and/or pixel alignment?

Greetings,

If a 720p digital signal is sent to the HS51's HDMI input, even if the Sony is scaling the image, I would think that the amount would be minimal at best.

I will not be using an outboard scaler at this point. I have a Denon 3910 which has both DVi and HDMI outs. Sending a 720p signal via HDMI from the player to the Sony's HDMI input should require no rescaling ( theoretically but we now know there will be some scaling by the Sony ). However, the amount performed by the HS51 should be minimal.

My current setup mates a Sony HS10 with my 3910. I have the Denon set to 720p. The HS10's rez is 1366 X 768 which means that the signal is being scaled by both the 3910 and the HS10. Image quality really is excellent ( other than the obvious shortcomings relative to contrast/black level ).

Can anyone who is using the Sony with an upscaling DVD player comment?


Regards,

Originally posted by WMCLAREN
SOWK. Thanks. So what was the point of this $200 HDMI cable? Will I still need the DVDO HD+?

The HDMI cable?

Not much till we find a 1:1 mapping fix for the Sony HS50/51.

I still have a $200 HDMI Cable sitting doing nothing too! Once I found out the VGA was the only way to get 1:1 mapping.

Yes, most defenitly keep the DVDO HD+

thats what is allowing you to get all your source images to 1280X720 60hz thru VGA! You need that!

Originally posted by SOWK


Yes, most definitely keep the DVDO HD+

thats what is allowing you to get all your source images to 1280X720 60hz thru VGA! You need that!

What about someone like me that has a an HD Tivo and a Pioneer Elite 59AVi feeding the Sony through an HDMI switcher. Would the DVDO HD+ help me at all?

Originally posted by placidman
Sending a 720p signal via HDMI from the player to the Sony's HDMI input should require no rescaling ( theoretically but we now know there will be some scaling by the Sony ). However, the amount performed by the HS51 should be minimal.



Dale Adams would be the guy to answer this but my guess is that it's not a matter of how minimal the amount of scaling is done by the Sony, but the fact that it is being scaled at all and the quality of that scaling. IOW, it has to rescale the whole signal just not parts of it, it doesn't matter what resolution you send to it, it's going to internally scale it to 1280x720 instead of just passing a 1280x720 signal untouched.

Originally posted by reaper
I think the 2 conversion he was talking about are D/A and A/D.

OK Got it!

I was thinking about scaling the picture twice. Since he was using SDI the iScanHD+ does the scaling in the digital domain.

Originally posted by Minge
What about someone like me that has a an HD Tivo and a Pioneer Elite 59AVi feeding the Sony through an HDMI switcher. Would the DVDO HD+ help me at all?

Yes, you can use the DVDO's DVI input, and scale everything to VGA ouput at 1280X720 60hz


Your setup would look like this

HD Tivo to HDMI switcher

Pioneer 59AVi to HDMI switcher

HDMI switcher to Hdmi/DVI cord

HDMI/DVi Cord to HD+ dvi input

HD+ to VGA out!

I still want byte to let Sony know we need a pass thru mode for HDMI! At all input modes.

Leave the scaling on, but Turn off the proccessing!

Dido sowk, byte you still with us? I know ur excited about your new input A only sony projector but show some love man. :) lol man im still laughing -jeff

"Leave the scaling on, "
I strongly disagree that scaling should be forced. I bought the HS51 upon hearing of the cropping fix. Now that I have it, I will not ask for this firmware change when I send the unit in for panel convergence. I do not wish to rely on the Sony scaler and I do not wish to scale the image twice. Sony's overscan scaling removal of the crop is utterly incomprehensible. Provide the option, sure. But who would believe that a scaled/overscanned image is an improvement over a non-scaled image (even cropped)?

Originally posted by SOWK
Yes, you can use the DVDO's DVI input, and scale everything to VGA ouput at 1280X720 60hz


Your setup would look like this

HD Tivo to HDMI switcher

Pioneer 59AVi to HDMI switcher

HDMI switcher to Hdmi/DVI cord

HDMI/DVi Cord to HD+ dvi input

HD+ to VGA out!

SOWK

WOULD THE IMPROVEMENT BE WORTH THE INVESTMENT IN THE hd+?

I have taken some time off from this thread to cool off. Now that I feel it is constructive again I will comment on my latest addition, the IMX Lense.

I originally talked to Byte about this and almost purchased his. Since I have started my own AV business I was able to get one at an industry price so I had to "BYTE", pun intended. I sit approximately 12 feet (144") from a 96" wide screen. This is 1.5 times the width and SDE was a problem for me. It was never really over the top but I did notice it a good bit. I did not want to move my seats back as I like this viewing distance so I can get immersed into the picture. The IMX is a major improvement to my eyes. Please realize I want a filmlike picture. I do not want a Windows Desktop type picture. I want smooth and detailed. The IMX does this in spades. Now be aware it is a *itch to set up. You really have to know what you are doing and work back and forth with it a good bit. Once it is properly dialed in you just get it. By get it I mean you can just sit back and watch without wondering where the next artifact is coming from. No scan line, jaggies, SDE, just smooth filmlike picture. I really find the biggest difference in HD material. Bright scenes especially where SDE may show its ugly head. Now I have read Brian's comments on giving a few more feet to his veiwing distance and this is true. But I also believe when set up properly that the IMX can almost completely remove pixel structure. The key is making sure you are perfectly focused, have the lense seated at an exact 45 degree angle and tweak it until you have depixelized the full screen uniformly. I have to move within a few feet of the screen to really dial in on individual pixels. Anyway if anyone has any questions let me know. I have taken a short course on setting these things up from the manufacturer.

awtryau89
it sounds like you have gotten the ultimate tweaked HS51!. A few questions.

1) What did you end up with for a final CR after your calibration efforts?
2) Final light output?
3) Are you still using 480i over HDMI? How does it compare to 1080i?
4) Does the IMX cause any loss in CR or light output.
5) Can you see the iris processing?

Thanks for all your insights.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
awtryau89
it sounds like you have gotten the ultimate tweaked HS51!. A few questions.

1) What did you end up with for a final CR after your calibration efforts?
2) Final light output?
3) Are you still using 480i over HDMI? How does it compare to 1080i?
4) Does the IMX cause any loss in CR or light output.
5) Can you see the iris processing?

Thanks for all your insights.

I really do not. I am thinking about adding an scaler. I really think a scaler and an IMX would benefit from each other. I recently had some DLPs in my room for demo so I could decide what to carry. Even at my pricing, I am deciding the Sony is my best bet for now. It really does look that good. I do not think a DLP, until you get to the Marantz S4 and its bretheren, are really worth the difference in price. Those DLPs are that much better but the mid priced ones are just basically comparable. Anyone that tries to make out like there is a dramatic difference is just fooling themselves. That my opinion though and should be taken as such but I have compared a few side by side. I will not name names as I do not want to effect any of my sales.

As for the settings: (from memory)
1) 3452:1
2) 362 Lumens (Low Lamp with Iris on)
3) Now with the fix, I am trying 720p. I like to watch one for a couple of weeks and then switch. I feel it gives me a better idea if one is better than the other.
4) Not in my case on either account.
5) Only if I am looking for it and then very briefly.

I hope this helps.

Originally posted by awtryau89
Anyway if anyone has any questions let me know. I have taken a short course on setting these things up from the manufacturer.

You didn't use binoculars when fine tuning the IMX?

Originally posted by Rieper
You didn't use binoculars when fine tuning the IMX?

I tried but it is much easier to just go to the screen. The IMX requires you really fine tune it and you cannot do that with binoculars.

Glad you had some fun installing it as HT professional, Eric. I stuffed around with it for ages. At first I had it too much softening happening, so I worked back till the image wasn't losing clarity, but looked better than without. It's a very precise piece of equipment in that regard.

My Receipt from Lorado says "Constant Weak/Excess Pictr". Do we know if that is the 720 fix and/or pixel alignment?

Hey, should I rename myself "invisible dude"? Doesn't anyone know what that stupid code Sony puts on the work orders means?

Originally posted by Minge
SOWK

WOULD THE IMPROVEMENT BE WORTH THE INVESTMENT IN THE hd+?

Depends on your view, and money situation. For me I would, but I have found a cheaper way of doing what I needed. But I only have 2 devices hooked up.

If you have alot of devices that you want to hook up to it, then it is a great way of getting multi device hooked up the best way possible.

Or you can wait to see if we get a fix for the HDMI.

Yes you will get a lot better picture, but the HD+ is half the cost of the Sony!

Member

Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 72
HI all I am going to demo a sony hs50 soon and would like to know what the best settings are for this projector I know many people on here have diffrent setting but i would like to know all of them so that i can test the projector at its best

what brightness, contrast and other setting do you use
what settings for the user and what colour temp

I diod have a quick go of one and it seemed the cinama was the best picture setting ???

would love to see them all before i go next time so that i can make my mind up there and then

Originally posted by DeeVee
"Leave the scaling on, "
I strongly disagree that scaling should be forced. I bought the HS51 upon hearing of the cropping fix. Now that I have it, I will not ask for this firmware change when I send the unit in for panel convergence. I do not wish to rely on the Sony scaler and I do not wish to scale the image twice. Sony's overscan scaling removal of the crop is utterly incomprehensible. Provide the option, sure. But who would believe that a scaled/overscanned image is an improvement over a non-scaled image (even cropped)?

Well you first need to know what I mean by scaling.

A native 720P source needs no scaling

480i/480P needs to be up scaled to the native 720P panels

(or you would only be using a portion of the panels, everything would
be 1:1 mapped, but you will not be using the whole panel)

1080i/1080P needs to be down scaled to the native 720P panels

(or you would be using more then the panels, everything would
be 1:1 mapped, but you would only see part of the image, not the whole pic.)

Originally posted by Dr. Joe F
My Receipt from Lorado says "Constant Weak/Excess Pictr". Do we know if that is the 720 fix and/or pixel alignment?

Hey, should I rename myself "invisible dude"? Doesn't anyone know what that stupid code Sony puts on the work orders means?

We see your post, but only a few would be able to answer you. You should call back to Sony and ask!

Originally posted by Minge
SOWK

WOULD THE IMPROVEMENT BE WORTH THE INVESTMENT IN THE hd+?

You should also wait till this weekend, as I will post some very nice compairison pics of the HDMI proccessng vs a dedicated VGA input.

That would allow you to see the differences you should gain buy buying the HD+

I got my HS51 back from Sony. The ROM was updated, but, the image is still distorted. I called and they said they did do the panel alignment, but, they do the best they can and that's all they can do. I'm debating what to do now. Should I return it and wait for a new batch? It's not noticable when viewing 16:9/1.78 material because my screen absorbs the edges where the distortion is. This sucks.

Originally posted by docphi
I got my HS51 back from Sony. The ROM was updated, but, the image is still distorted. I called and they said they did do the panel alignment, but, they do the best they can and that's all they can do. I'm debating what to do now. Should I return it and wait for a new batch? It's not noticable when viewing 16:9/1.78 material because my screen absorbs the edges where the distortion is. This sucks.

Please try it with the VGA input in computer mode. If it still there. then return it. and get a different unit!

NEWSFLASH

SONY NORTH AMERICA ISSUES HDMI PROCESSING FIX FOR CURRENT VPL-HS51 PROJECTION OWNERS

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/2003/05-019E/index.html

Congratulations SOWK, you got SONY to bend to your wishes!!!

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APRIL FOOLS :D,

SUCKA!!!!!

Originally posted by Rieper
NEWSFLASH

SONY NORTH AMERICA ISSUES HDMI PROCESSING FIX FOR CURRENT VPL-HS51 PROJECTION OWNERS

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/2003/05-019E/index.html

Congratulations SOWK, you got SONY to bend to your wishes!!!

APRIL FOOLS :D,

SUCKAS!!!!!

Thats not very nice. hehe

I wish they would allow us to turn off the proccessing though.

Here a good April Fools Joke


Newsflash

Sony knows what the Ethernet Port on the front of the Sony HS51 does!

haha.

Also Sony sees the light and now is going to issue every HS50/51 owner $500.00 dollars back as they relise that this was the extra money we gave to sony to have the crappy video porccessor, proccess our native 720P images! They finally relise that an unaltered pixel perfect image sound not be reproccessed!

Originally posted by SOWK
Please try it with the VGA input in computer mode. If it still there. then return it. and get a different unit!

I'm running component video from my Sony DVD player. I thought it would be adequate since I don't plan on using HTPC. Are you suggesting a component to VGA transcoder?

Not really, if you know anyone with a laptop, have them bring it over.

I'm just taking everything out of the equation except the Sony HS51

Originally posted by SOWK
Not really, if you know anyone with a laptop, have them bring it over.

I'm just taking everything out of the equation except the Sony HS51


Duh! Why didn't I think of that? I hooked up my laptop and...the picture is 100% perfect! It's probably the internal processing of the HS51 that's causing the distortion, don't you think? Now, what to do about it...

Originally posted by docphi
Duh! Why didn't I think of that? I hooked up my laptop and...the picture is 100% perfect! It's probably the internal processing of the HS51 that's causing the distortion, don't you think? Now, what to do about it...

Based on previous posts from other members, I just want to know if your telling the truth? or being sarcastic?


If it is true, SONY PLEASE ALLOW US TO TURN OFF THE PROCCESSING!

-SOWK

Originally posted by SOWK
Based on previous posts from other members, I just want to know if your telling the truth? or being sarcastic?


If it is true, SONY PLEASE ALLOW US TO TURN OFF THE PROCCESSING!

-SOWK

No sarcasm! I'm being totally honest. My picture is perfect through Input A. Any suggestions to run component video to Input A?

Originally posted by docphi
No sarcasm! I'm being totally honest. My picture is perfect through Input A. Any suggestions to run component video to Input A?
You could try a transcoder, which will introduce its own set of issues.

What is your player and what output resolution are you using. Do you have blanking or overscan?

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
You could try a transcoder, which will introduce its own set of issues.

What is your player and what output resolution are you using. Do you have blanking or overscan?



DVD player is the Sony SLV-D560P which outputs 480p. I don't see any blanking, but, there is some overscan.

All you need is a simple vga to component breakout cable. jeff

I have both transcoder and breakout cables, it was tested when i first got the hs51.

hs51 is sync on green, you don''t need transcoder, a simple breakout cable will do...

BUT, having component>vga is same as component>vga>component as you have to chose component mode over vga input to make it work... that means you can't do whatever you wanted to do there. it's still a component mode.

If you indeed to get vga 1280x720 pc mode, you will need HTPC, DVI>VGA, iscan, or player that have vga out.

Originally posted by docphi
DVD player is the Sony SLV-D560P which outputs 480p. I don't see any blanking, but, there is some overscan.
Is your problem the overscan, or garbage in the overscan area?

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Is your problem the overscan, or garbage in the overscan area?


I'm not sure. There's a light border/black line around the image in the overscan area.

Originally posted by awtryau89
I want smooth and detailed. The IMX does this in spades. Now be aware it is a *itch to set up. You really have to know what you are doing and work back and forth with it a good bit. Once it is properly dialed in you just get it. By get it I mean you can just sit back and watch without wondering where the next artifact is coming from. No scan line, jaggies, SDE, just smooth filmlike picture. I really find the biggest difference in HD material. Bright scenes especially where SDE may show its ugly head. Now I have read Brian's comments on giving a few more feet to his veiwing distance and this is true. But I also believe when set up properly that the IMX can almost completely remove pixel structure. The key is making sure you are perfectly focused, have the lense seated at an exact 45 degree angle and tweak it until you have depixelized the full screen uniformly. I have to move within a few feet of the screen to really dial in on individual pixels. Anyway if anyone has any questions let me know. I have taken a short course on setting these things up from the manufacturer.

Eric, perhaps you can go into detail about your procedure for setting up the IMX because my procedure sounds nowhere near as time consuming as yours and to be honest its hard for me to understand how it takes very long. With me, I turn the dial, watch the pixels start to overlap and pick a point that is good compromise between blurred and sharp.

Brian

I'm not sure. There's a light border/black line around the image in the overscan area.

overscan area???? or Light green line on the edge of the OAR bars? The "black" bar

Originally posted by docphi
No sarcasm! I'm being totally honest. My picture is perfect through Input A. Any suggestions to run component video to Input A?

Does your DVD player have DVI or HDMI?

If not your cheapest method would be to find a cheap Componet to VGA transcoder.

If it has HDMI/DVI, you can use a DVI to VGA adaptor. But cost about $300.00

If not your cheapest method would be to find a cheap Componet to VGA transcoder.

I don't think Transcoder work on any sync on green display and darn sure it doesn't work on hs51.

Originally posted by usabrian
Eric, perhaps you can go into detail about your procedure for setting up the IMX because my procedure sounds nowhere near as time consuming as yours and to be honest its hard for me to understand how it takes very long. With me, I turn the dial, watch the pixels start to overlap and pick a point that is good compromise between blurred and sharp.

Brian

Brian,
There are 3 steps in setting this thing up.

1) Lense Mounting- Make sure the Sony is as sharply focused as possible. Place the lenses over the unit and make sure you are as close to a 45 degree angle as possible. This is tricky. You have to look at the pixels and make sure you do not have too much horizontal overlap and too much vertical overlap. Use the installation guide pictures from the website to identify what you should be seeing. The ideal is pixel overlap in both the horizontal and vertical directions about the same. The best way to know you have it is you get a defined dot on the diagonal of each pixel.

2) Adjust Center Image- Here the best thing to is find a bright image with text in it. Use the large dial to mix the pixels and get the most filmlike image. I found that I achieved the best results with a small amount of turn. To my eyes, the smoothest yet most detailed image came from when I got the pixels to blend almost completely with the same small dot on the diagonal still intact. This is where I had to go all the way up to the screen and study the center image and pixel structure.

3) Spread the Processing- Once the center is to your liking you have to try and get the same processing over the full screen. Use the allen wrench and turn the small key in the lense housing to spread the processing. The is not one definite way to turn the key. I had to start over numerous times as this is where I would completely blurr my image. What I found is that I could get the processing spread throughout the image fairly evenly but there are small pockets where the pixels do not look exactly the same. I was told this is to be expected. The main thing is to keep the center image as it was and get the edges as close as possible. It can be done but it takes going back and forth numerous times to the screen as you slowly move the allen key then back off the large dial and vice versa.

I spent a good bit of time on the phone with Sean Kelly at Panamorph and he walked me through this process.

Again, I cannot say enough about my image now. I have to say I prefer its smooth look over a harder edgier look. Some may prefer the opposite. I watched a good bit of HD last night and its just hard to believe I am watching an LCD. I may have erred on the soft side of the image but my picture looks much smoother than any DLP I have ever seen. This lense will work wonders for this PJ. Now I am on to the next thing, a scaler. I will report back when my Iscan comes in.

Originally posted by docphi
I'm not sure. There's a light border/black line around the image in the overscan area.
This may well be a problem caused by the Sony's processing of the 480p image you're sending it. It sounds somewhat similar to a problem someone else has reported. Do you see the line/border on the top and bottom of a letterboxed image?

When you hooked the PC up to the VGA input, what resolution signal did you send to the projector? If it wasn't a 720x480 (480p) signal, then you're not really doing an apples-to-apples comparison as the processing done by the projector would be different in the 2 cases. That may be true anyway because you were comparing an RGB input to a YPbPr (component) input, but it's certainly true if the image resolution was different.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by zeroendless
overscan area???? or Light green line on the edge of the OAR bars? The "black" bar


This is what I mean. Excuse the poor quality pic. The "halo" extends around the entire image and the image content is distorted within the "halo".

Originally posted by docphi
This is what I mean. Excuse the poor quality pic. The "halo" extends around the entire image and the image content is distorted within the "halo".
That looks like a scaling artifact to me (or possibly having sharpness or detail enhancement set too high, although those are often applied only in the horizontal direction). This is not unusual around very sharp edge transition like the border of a pillarboxed or letterboxed image.

It could well be the HS51's scaler causing the problem, although it would be good to verify that it's not the DVD player. Is there any way you can connect the player to another display to see if the problem is still there? If not, the the projector is probably causing the problem.

The fact that you didn't see it on the VGA input with a different source may not mean anything if the signal you sent it from the other source was not 480p (so that the scaling would be the same) or if it didn't have the same sharpness picture control settings on the VGA input.

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Dale Adams
This may well be a problem caused by the Sony's processing of the 480p image you're sending it. It sounds somewhat similar to a problem someone else has reported. Do you see the line/border on the top and bottom of a letterboxed image?

When you hooked the PC up to the VGA input, what resolution signal did you send to the projector? If it wasn't a 720x480 (480p) signal, then you're not really doing an apples-to-apples comparison as the processing done by the projector would be different in the 2 cases. That may be true anyway because you were comparing an RGB input to a YPbPr (component) input, but it's certainly true if the image resolution was different.

- Dale Adams


Dale the porpse of me having him try VGA was to prove it was not his Sony that is defective, in the way of panel convergence, or anything else.

-SOWK

Someone has too much time on their hands.......

Byte,
You just got to leave it alone. :D

Originally posted by zeroendless
I have both transcoder and breakout cables, it was tested when i first got the hs51.

hs51 is sync on green, you don''t need transcoder, a simple breakout cable will do...

BUT, having component>vga is same as component>vga>component as you have to chose component mode over vga input to make it work... that means you can't do whatever you wanted to do there. it's still a component mode.

If you indeed to get vga 1280x720 pc mode, you will need HTPC, DVI>VGA, iscan, or player that have vga out.



Just tried a breakout cable and the artifact is there on Input A.

Originally posted by jeffropaige
byte you still with us?

I have been in lurk mode, while I am waiting on an Iscan HD+ to arrive.

I would prefer to reserve posting any thoughts, until I have some actual 1st hand experience to back it up.

I do regret to report, Sony will not be taking any more questions or supplying me with any more answers to post in this thread.

It seems someone from Sony has been following and has not been impressed with the level of misinformation and bashing offered by some of our members. This has in part contributed to my poor attitude, as I feel my efforts have been wasted, just so a few members could voice their uninformed opinions.

Regardless of your opinion of Sony's efforts to resolve the 720p blanking issue, there is a right way and a wrong way to treat the manufacturer in public. Especially if you want them to work on future upgrades. It's pretty safe to say Sony feels this thread/forum represents an HT fringe element, which might bash Sony no matter what they do. :( I don't blame them.

It would appear such unmoderated free speech does not come without a cost. So I would like to personally thank those, who in their own wisdom, have all but killed the golden goose.

....

Never willing to give up, I sent a follow up email regarding my planned experiments with the HD+. I requested 720p HDMI output horizontal & vertical timings, which might allow the HS-51 to do the bare minimum scaling, and thus minimize any double scaling artifacts. I hope they will answer. Even if they don't, watching the Iscan pixel mapping test patterns while working thru timing changes, will probably get me to the same place.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Never willing to give up, I sent a follow up email regarding my planned experiments with the HD+. I requested 720p HDMI output horizontal & vertical timings, which might allow the HS-51 to do the bare minimum scaling, and thus minimize any double scaling artifacts. I hope they will answer. Even if they don't, watching the Iscan pixel mapping test patterns while working thru timing changes, will probably get me to the same place.
Let us know what you find out. I may be able to suggest some timing adjustments to the iScan based on your experiments and data from Sony (assuming it's actually provided).

- Dale Adams

Originally posted by Dale Adams
Let us know what you find out. I may be able to suggest some timing adjustments to the iScan based on your experiments and data from Sony (assuming it's actually provided).

- Dale Adams

Thanks Dale...

I'm looking forward to checking out the new software.

Hey Byte, I know your refering to me, and thats ok. But I have not given out misinformation, I have been helping alot of member solve issues brough apon with HDMI, and I am looking for a no proccessing fix. And if you think Sony is not going to help us because of my posts that is incorrect. The only way Sony's going to know about the problems is thru the people voicing there opinions.

-SOWK

Again good luck with you quest to find 1:1 mapping thru HDMI.
BTW... Even if you "did" ever find the proper timmings for 1:1 mapping, we would all have to buy a DVDO HD+ - I dont think so!

Or you could again just inform Sony they need to turn off the proccessing.

My HS51 arrived yesterday and after some repositioning of my screen I set it up and plugged it in.

My first thought was "wow, this is quiet!"

Then I turned off High Altitude mode and turned on Low Bulb mode and it really blew my mind. I can't even hear it anymore. It's amazing.

Originally posted by xamphear
My HS51 arrived yesterday and after some repositioning of my screen I set it up and plugged it in.

My first thought was "wow, this is quiet!"

Then I turned off High Altitude mode and turned on Low Bulb mode and it really blew my mind. I can't even hear it anymore. It's amazing.

Congratulations on your HS51 buy. Wise investment.

How's your panel alignment? Do you have the updated software fix?

Talk about image quality, and how you like/dislike it...

Thanks.

Just tried a breakout cable and the artifact is there on Input A.

Like i said, component>breakout cable>Vga INPUT A is same as component in. You should observe the same result. I hope you didn't purchased the cable just for testing. .... Another good example of useful thread with misinformation.....:D

Originally posted by Bytehoven
It seems someone from Sony has been following and has not been impressed with the level of misinformation and bashing offered by some of our members....

It's pretty safe to say Sony feels this thread/forum represents an HT fringe element, which might bash Sony no matter what they do...
Well, at least it's good to hear that someone from Sony has been following the discussions. Hopefully they understand that in a forum like this, most people will not bother to post unless they have a problem or complaint. For every person that posts, there are probably hundreds of satisfied lurkers who scan for useful information and ignore the noise. I don't think there is a PJ discussed in these forums, at any price point, that hasn't received some bashing over some minor design flaw, or posts from unhappy customers who received a defective unit.

I for one love my HS51, and am axiously awaiting its return from service. It may not be perfect, but there is no perfect digital projector at any price yet. For the price, it throws a great picture that only "the fringe" here would find fault with :D. Sony deserves credit for pushing the envelope in low priced LCD projectors, starting with the 400Q, through the HS10, HS20, and now the HS51. All performance/price break through projectors in their time.

To anyone from Sony who is reading I would say don't let the negative comments discourage you from extracting useful feedback from the AVS forum. You have made a great projector, but listen to the constructive criticism from this forum and the professional reviewers.

In the future, try to provide the option of a 1 to 1 pixel pass-thru mode when feeding your projectors at their native resolution. This is important to people using PCs, external scalers, and high def sources. There is no need to scale an image with is already the correct resolution. You did a good job with Input A in Computer mode, please do the same for other inputs.
Make overscan adjustable for non-native input resolutions, or at least keep it under 2%. The 5% overscan on 480i and 480p input obscures tickers and other important information.
Provide a setting for SD or HD colorspace, since not all sources send it correctly.
RCP is a useful adjustment feature, but it should be input specific like the other image settings because the best setting is source dependent. I used it to fix some color issues from my PC, but I have to remember to switch the the RCP setting whenever I switch inputs.
Provide a way for customers with PCs to install firmware upgrades themselves. The HS51 has both a USB and a network connection that could be used for this. If we could install firmware updates ourselves, it would save Sony a lot of money when providing free updates such as the 720 border fix. Also we would not need risk shipping damage and be without our projectors for days or weeks to install an update that only takes a few minutes.

Design details like this would make a great projector even better, and help you beat the competition.

SOWK, you might go over some of your earlier posts and read some of the adjectives you used regarding sony and the hs51 hdmi mode in particular. This might give you some insight into what byte is refering to.

BTW, it seems a bit petty on sony's part to stop helping solve a known problem on the hs51 just because of the tone of a few posters on this thread. There is processing going on in hdmi when fed a 720p signal and it would be nice if we could turn it off if we wanted. Even if we disagree with sowk's tone, he is an actual owner of an hs51.

Sony should work on future upgrades, not because we here at avs say so, but because there are issues with the product that need upgrading. If they want to see bashing, wait to see what happens when they start totally ignoring their customer base...

EDIT: Sony read jschefdog's bullet pints above for upgrade path...

Originally posted by Rieper
Congratulations on your HS51 buy. Wise investment.

How's your panel alignment? Do you have the updated software fix?

Talk about image quality, and how you like/dislike it...

Thanks. I purchased it around 2 weeks ago and had the dealer ship it directly to the Laredo center for the 720p update. They then shipped it on to me. Thusly I've never seen it with the blanking.

My panel alignment appears to be within tolerances, though not perfect. I dont think perfection is something you can really get with LCDs. The pixels are just so tiny, you're bound to be off by a micron here or there.

I upgraded to the HS51 from an XGA DLP unit. It's taking my eyes a little bit to get used to the DLP -> LCD change. Each has their own drawbacks, my eyes are just used to overlooking the DLP drawbacks (smearing, rainbows, etc). I will say that I haven't seen even the tiniest bit of VB. My HT first projector was LCD and VB is what drove me to buy DLP. The biggest things so far are an increased screen door (DLP just has one heck of an edge in terms of fill %) and response time. I'm seeing a little bluring during horizontal pans. Nothing to be concerned about, just not something I saw with the DLP.

Contrast is great. Black level is okay, but not amazing. My DLP had a better black level, so my eyes are also adjusting to that. I'm sure in a few days I won't notice it.

Overall, I'm pleased with the purchase, especially at the price I got it for. The lens shift alone was worth the cost of upgrading. The HDMI connector and 720p resolution are icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned.

My next step is to find someone to buy my 4:3 screen and get a 16:9 one. That'll help perceived black levels too.

Originally posted by xamphear

Contrast is great. Black level is okay, but not amazing. My DLP had a better black level, so my eyes are also adjusting to that. I'm sure in a few days I won't notice it.

This is very surprising. What settings are you using? Properly setup and calibrated the HS51 should have better black level that any of the current XGA DLPs, including the HT1000!

Originally posted by jschefdog


In the future, try to provide the option of a 1 to 1 pixel pass-thru mode when feeding your projectors at their native resolution. This is important to people using PCs, external scalers, and high def sources. There is no need to scale an image with is already the correct resolution. You did a good job with Input A in Computer mode, please do the same for other inputs.
Make overscan adjustable for non-native input resolutions, or at least keep it under 2%. The 5% overscan on 480i and 480p input obscures tickers and other important information.
Provide a setting for SD or HD colorspace, since not all sources send it correctly.
RCP is a useful adjustment feature, but it should be input specific like the other image settings because the best setting is source dependent. I used it to fix some color issues from my PC, but I have to remember to switch the the RCP setting whenever I switch inputs.
Provide a way for customers with PCs to install firmware upgrades themselves. The HS51 has both a USB and a network connection that could be used for this. If we could install firmware updates ourselves, it would save Sony a lot of money when providing free updates such as the 720 border fix. Also we would not need risk shipping damage and be without our projectors for days or weeks to install an update that only takes a few minutes.

Design details like this would make a great projector even better, and help you beat the competition.

Great post jschefdog! I agree with your comments wholeheartedly especially the last one regarding firmware updates. This is backed up by the huge number of consumer devices that do provide this (including many from Sony). As an embedded developer I can attest that this isn't done as a favour to customers, it's done to save the manufacturer significant $. Basically a win-win for the end user and manufacturer. Worst case scenario is that the people who can't do it send it in for a fee. The fee encourages them to at least give it a go and rewards the customers that end up saving the manufacturer money by doing it themselves. From a technical standpoint, if designed correctly such that the loader is never touched via the upgrade process, there is no way to "ruin" the unit. If power fails during an upgrade, simply do it again without removing power and you are good to go.

We are enjoying our HS50 thoroughly via the VGA Input, but would love to have the option of using the HDMI once the issues discussed in detail in this forum are addressed.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
This is very surprising. What settings are you using? Properly setup and calibrated the HS51 should have better black level that any of the current XGA DLPs, including the HT1000! You may be right, I haven't had a chance to do anything to it yet in terms of configuration. But the way it came to me (which might not be factory defaults since the guys in Laredo may have tweaked with it) out of the box the black floor is higher than my old DLP. I can't say by how much, really, but it was high enough that it stuck out as the first thing I noticed when I turned it on and it displayed the default black screen.

Is there any one or two things I should do first to remedy the situation? I don't have anything fancy like a color facts unit. Just an AVIA disc.

I used a vga breakout cable to component to a panasonic rp62 with the dcdi chip and it looked awesome so im not sure what artifacts you are talking about, but crap in is always crap out. (not sure what you are inputing) I thought it looked better than just doing component in. just my 2 cents jeff

p.s. byte - I dont buy the "Im so hurt card" :( sony is trying to play but what ever, they can act upset if they want, I dont believe anyone has said anything that isnt true. the hdmi doesnt do 1:1 720p or sony isnt helping us figure out how to do it. And several of the hs51's I bought had bad alignment- worse than 2-3 pixels off. I have photos. There are no untruths about anything anyone has said about sony. Bussiness is bussiness and you either produce a product that the public feels is worth the money invested in it or the public buys something else. Truth hurts sometimes I guess. But I guess we arent allow to complain. jeffpaige31@hotmail.com

Hi Folks,

I love this thread, it has helped me so much in learning what to look for when making a decision about purchasing this great PJ.

Question, Are there any VPL-HS51 power users who live somewhat near this address?

420 Ninth Avenue
New York, NY 10001, USA

I'm interested in seeing this unit in action before buying, preferably from someone on this forum who knows what they are doing.

Please send an e-mail to me at flamaest@gmail.com .

Thanks!
Fabian.

Originally posted by JJay
BTW, it seems a bit petty on sony's part to stop helping solve a known problem on the hs51 just because of the tone of a few posters on this thread. There is processing going on in hdmi when fed a 720p signal and it would be nice if we could turn it off if we wanted. Even if we disagree with sowk's tone, he is an actual owner of an hs51.

Sony should work on future upgrades, not because we here at avs say so, but because there are issues with the product that need upgrading. If they want to see bashing, wait to see what happens when they start totally ignoring their customer base...

1st... the 720p upgrade required a factory service because it was both a software update and a circuit board mod.

2nd... Sony was listening to the market when they developed the 720p upgrade, as alot of people were complaining about the black border.

3rd... does anyone really know what issues were at stake to solve the black border? I was able to see pre & post update performance with the 720p output of several sources, and in no way has the update been a backwards step as far as performance from my HD tuner or upscaling players. I am looking forward to making a similar comparison with the Iscan HD+.

4th... I think folks interested in pure pass thru 1:1 mapping have to get their brain around the possibility, this feature is not a top priority. It's not too difficult to imagine a very small percentage of owners are ever going to give a rat's bottom if there is 1:1 mapping. The majority of average owners may be very pleased with the HS-51 scaler and deinterlacer, because it has performed very well with the bare bones sources I have tried. I would be the 1st to complain if the 720p upgrade did not produce an excellent image, however it does produce an excellent image, in every way.

5th... is pixel mapping lost with the 720p upgrade? I don't know, but I intend to find out. Not knowing enough about the real world choices Sony had to make, in order to solve the black border issue, I can not guess excactly how they provided a fix. And as we would all expect, Sony is not about to go into the sausage making on this matter. We certainly see bits of evidence regarding the cropping & zooming, but not a total picture of the balance of choices they made to solve the blanking. Given the performance I am seeing from a number of 720p sources, Sony did an excellent job balancing the choices in the removale of the black border. Could they have done it differently? I don't know.

Regarding the jschefdog list...

Pixel mapping: In the past, with a better knowledge of the processing of the NEC HT1000, I could appreciate the limitations inherent in the projector design. Some of these limitations were overcome with the HT1100, but not all. IMHO, Sony may have made the best possible balance of choices between the needs of the average projector buyer and the higher stakes HT tweaker. With even less info to go on, I find it funny how some folks can know Sony could have done things differently. Personally, I would rather work toward discovering the facts and inherent limitations of the design, rather than offer erroneous conjecture regarding what Sony must or should have offered. Sony may very well have chosen to give up a pure pass thru mode on all but the VGA-RGB input, out of a design aesthetic for the best performance possible for the average 720p user. But as I said earlier, I have yet to see any performance hit on my 720p sources with the post 720p update, so it looks like they did a good job fixing the black border issue. Could they have simply removed the black borders and left the original scaling? I don't know.

Overscan adjustment: This would be a great feature, which was available on the HT1000, except that 1080i was limited at a 5% minimum. This feature is not a common feature among projectors, but I certainly would like to see it if there is room in the design to offer the capability. However, I think we might consider when maximizing the quality of the scaler, maybe Sony was limited in their feature choices while still being able to offer excellent quality on the output. Perhaps the Sony design has been optimized for a particular number of taps.

Regarding SD/HD color space: I have yet to see a projector offer this capability as a user function or service mode adjustment.

Regarding RCP: I can only go on the experience I had with the HT1000, which also had features which were both flexible and inflexible. Those features which were inflexible were so thru the design limitation of the processor. As I noted, the 2nd generation HT1100 overcame a number of such inflexible features, but not all. I would assume the HS-51 maximizes the processor capability, feature by feature. While it would be nice if RCP automatically followed the input, atleast it has (3) user presets. But I would also note, the HS-51 has one of the best NTSC decoder setups right out of the box I have seen. RCP would only be required when the source is whacked out.

User software upgrades: I'll again refer to the HT1000 and the 1 year battle we owners fought to get NEC to let us perform user upgrades, and it was a battle. In my initial conversations regarding the 720p update, Sony was considering a user installed option had the update not required a circuit board mod. I don't see user installed upgrades as a dead end, but it may well be as much of a battle to make happen as it was with NEC. We should note the HT1000/HT1100 has a PC flash card onboard which made upgrades very easy, not that the HS-51 doesn't also have great potential. I'm not sure about the inherent limitations of the HS-50.

Bottom line: The HS-51 is a great value and a wonderful balance of features. Like any projector, it has it's quirks. Quirks only a very few people might ever discover and expend any serious mental efforts debating.

I assume the scaler on the HS-51 is limited and being maximized, thus prohibiting some of the more powerful features we see on the HT1000, which come very near an external scaler in form and function.

White balance management under auto iris is the main issue I would like to tackle on the HS-51. Although awtryau89's recent RGB gain/bias settings have given me a new foundation from which to tweak both the bottom and top of the IRE range.

I will have more to say regarding pixel mapping on the HDMI input very soon. I have hope Dale Adams will provide great input, being the DVDO Iscan Master Builder. Hopefully, if there is a particular set of Iscan HD+ timings which work, this info will cross over to HTPCs and other devices which offer output timing adjsutments.

All I can suggest is a little less negativity. The HS-51 is a great projector, for which we would have easily coughed up $15K just a short time ago. Let's keep our eye on the ball, and be prepared to ask for change where change is possible and except roadblocks where changes is not possible.

Originally posted by jeffropaige
the hdmi doesnt do 1:1 720p or sony isnt helping us figure out how to do it. And several of the hs51's I bought had bad alignment- worse than 2-3 pixels off.

Hi Jeff...

Sony has updated the optical block QC, and I believe updated the production line with the new piece. It should be interesting to note, the Qualia has had similar convergence problems, which are also being addressed. We'll have to see if the optical block upgrade has resolved convergence issues. There have also been rumors of "in the field" panel tweaks on the Qualia, as was reported on the HS-51. Someday, I hope we learn how these tweaks are made.

Pixel mapping... for all the chatter on this issue, only (2) folks posted their complete H&V timings and HS-51 info, and (2) others posted just their HS-51 info. (3) of these posts had improper H&V frequencies, from the 720p standard. Honestly, I was suprised more folks didn't contribute. Offended? No, but surprised given the furor over the issue.

Fine... I anted up the cabbage and have a HD+ headed my way. I don't need the HD+ for my setup, but I am interested in helping to resolve the issue.

Maybe the HS-51 needs a perfect 720p signal for both the pre and post updated projector. Maybe all it takes is a slight drift from the norm in the horizontal or vertical frequency, to cause the HS-51 to apply an unwanted level of scaling and hence processing artifact.

I am seeing perfect 720 performance from a motorola 6208 as well as from several upscaling DVD players. All of these sources have reported proper H&V frequencies in the HS-51 info window. I also saw perfect 1:1 mapping on the pre-updated HS-51 from the Iscan HD. These observations led me to believe the pre-updated HS-51 was not at fault for the poor HDMI performance reported.

I will soon have the benefit of a post-updated evaluation of the HD+. I will be able to see what timing and frequency changes do to the image reproduction on the HS-51. Perhaps I will see it only take a small variation from the 720p frequency standard, to cause the HS-51 scaler to react adversely. However, I really don't know what to expect.

I have invited Dale to direct my HD+/HS-51 testing. I also invite anyone else to suggest some aspect I should try when testing the HD+ with the post-updated HS-51.

Byte? Where do you live if you dont mind me asking? If close to WI, I would also like to see your possible results!

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Regarding SD/HD color space: I have yet to see a projector offer this capability as a user function or service mode adjustment.

Byte,

I'm not saying that they should, but you asked. I'm pretty sure the Yamaha 1200 and Marantz 12S4 have this feature. There are probably more.

BTW, one major advantage of HDMI over other inputs (including DVI) is that when it is "properly" implemented it allows for colorspace conversion at a higher bit rate (8 vs 10 bit).

Cheers,
Raul

MY wishes would be that:

1.
HS-50 (and 51) had the same mapping menu as the JVC D-ILA:
- 1:1 mapping (no scaling - 480 image becomes REALLY SMALL - 720P fills panel withous blanking and overscan)
- Panel fill (internal scaler working t fill panel regardless of signal input 480,720 or 1080)
- Aspect mode (fills panel with the correct aspect)
- Zoom (zooms up all pictures to fill entire panel = 4:3 will stretch)

2.
Panel alignment will be fixed - all three panels spot on

3.
That the European version HS-50 also had the RJ45 connection and the software to be able to adjust gamma tracking. From what i know the only gamma correction on the HS-50 is the 4 menu options Off, low, medium and high. Personally i would love to start fine adjusting the gamma.
I realy dont see why the did 2 versions - one good and one not as good of this PJ :(
I.M.O. it just makes matter worse with 2 sets of firmware, mechanics, manuals and so on to keep up to date. I really would love to have a HS-51 but i hve to settle for my current HS-50 which is by no means bad - its a great machine but still i envy you guys being able to buy the HS-51 ;)

Regards
Boogieman

Bytehoven ,

Just a friendly FYI but ALL Infocus projectors including the lowly SP5000 offer the choice of Colorspace in the User menus . The Yamaha DPX-1100 and now I believe the 1200 also offer this as a User menu choice .

From the SP5000 Operator's Manual ...
"Color Space: This option applies to computer sources. It allows you to
select a color space that has been specifically tuned for the video input.
When Auto is selected, the projector automatically determines the standard.
To choose a different setting, turn off Auto, then choose RGB for computer
sources, choose either SMPTE240, REC709 or REC601 for component
sources."

From the SP7205 Manual............
"Color Space: This option applies to computer and HDTV sources (it won’t
appear in the menu for video sources). It allows you to select a color space
that has been specifically tuned for the video input. When Auto is selected,
the projector automatically determines the standard. To choose a different
setting, turn off Auto, then choose RGB for computer sources, choose
REC709 for component 1080i or 720p sources, or choose REC601 for component 480p or 576p sources."

Interesting choice of terms..."computer sources" and "video sources" . Must be a publication leftover from the Business PJ Dept :D

Scott.................:)

Hi:

Wanted to mention my experience today at high end place in Raleigh, NC I frequest called Audio Advice. I have been reading a ton about the HS51 and was really interested in the unit after seeing at this store the Fujitsu LPF-D711. I was blown away by the image, black levels and more. That leed me to the HS51 on these forums and started my research/quest.

Well today I was in the store to get replacement tubes for my pre-amp and guess what was sitting on a box in there low end video room: The HS51. I ran back home, grabbed my favorites and headed to the store.

It was sitting on a box on top of a moving cart ( they hadn't gotten to mount or calibrate it yet ) and I sat down and played with it for a while. It was projected on a firehawk 96" and the sitting was at approx ~12 feet. No upscalers, just content straight through component ( DVD, HD).

1. Screen door: It was noticeable but barely. It tended to show out more with scenes on a HD satelite feed of the north pole that was pure white. All in all very manageable.
2. Black levels were awesome ( this room was pitch black dark ). I used Avia to do a quick calibration of the unit and brought down brightness to around 45 that looked best. Pushed the colors a little to around 55 ( after that it just pushed red to much ).

Movies:
The incredibles
Man it looked awesome... The most impresive part is the gradients. The scene that he is captured and the camera gets really close to his back the gradiation of reds to orange and then shadow was just breathtaking.

Fith Element (Superbit)
The scene were Liu jumps off the side of the building and you could see the whole city was awesome. The details in here hair were very pronounced and the scene contrast just outstanding.

Hero
The scene where they are fighting in the leaves with the red dresses... Gasp... Wow.... Came to the conclusion that I would have to watch the movie again because I certainly hadn't seen it...

StarWars Return of the Jedi.
Was it really filmed in 82? The scene where Luke meets the emperor is so rich in shadow detail that it was a great example to test. We played ( my friends and me ) until we got the settings we wanted. It just looked so awesome. Did notice some staircassing on the lightsaber when it was moved at certain angles.

So we started moving between the room that had the HS51 and the Fujitsu ( the HS51 is basically 1/10th the price ). First impressions was, well the Fujitsu certainly has more detail ( being that it's a 1080p panel and is connected via the mother of upscalers ) and was brighter by a decent margin. But we sat at the same distance as we sat from the HS51. Put the same material in and DVD after DVD my friends kept saying the same thing "that costs how much more than the other one?"...

Granted it was a better image all around but was it really worth the HUGE difference in price and we certainly felt it didn't. So the question was, is the Fujitsu not worth it or is the HS51 just so awesome. And hell, we didn't have any upsampler, using the component connection on a cardboard box!

Well, needless to say I was hooked and ordered it with the firehawk on the spot.

Wanted to thank all the posters in this forums for the information. Using everything that I read I asked them to make sure that the unit had proper firmware. They are going to order the unit from Sony and try to make sure that it has the proper firmware. I am really excited because I didn't want to order it online and I like doing business with the local small shops since they are always so helpfull.

The comparison with the Fujitsu is not to spark controversy but to show how the lines between the best projectors out there and the lower end market is bluring. I would love to have the Fujitsu but it is really outside of the budget by a huge factor.

Now to order the DVDO and some cables!

Raf

byte, if sony ends up saying that there is no way to to turn off processing with a 720p source I can live with that. There is no reason for any processing of 720p sources even if one doesn't mind the sony's processing but as you state it might not be possible with the design decisions sony made.

Of course, you are correct and its possible that the problem doesn't involve the hs51 and hopefully your testing with an hd+ will definitively answer this question.

Originally posted by xamphear
You may be right, I haven't had a chance to do anything to it yet in terms of configuration. But the way it came to me (which might not be factory defaults since the guys in Laredo may have tweaked with it) out of the box the black floor is higher than my old DLP. I can't say by how much, really, but it was high enough that it stuck out as the first thing I noticed when I turned it on and it displayed the default black screen.

Is there any one or two things I should do first to remedy the situation? I don't have anything fancy like a color facts unit. Just an AVIA disc.

The obvious is to make sure its in high contrast mode--make sure iris is set to auto (try the cinema mode button). Brightness will probably end up near 55 and contrast about 75 after avia adjustments.

Get around overscan for HTPC + Nvidia User.

Use Nvidia Underscan Feature, set 5%.

[Edit] Newbie...This is for hdmi ONLY, vga is 1:1 mapped.

http://www.danator.com/img/hs51/overscan.jpg

I'll post some VERY interesting screen shot 720p vga/hdmi tomorrow.......:D

sounds good byte, hey what upscaling dvd players are you getting 1:1 over the hdmi port. I want to get one bad but have not had any luck with a really good one that does this?? thanks jeff

Raf,

I was in Audio Advice yesterday as well and checked out the HS51 as well. It's still sitting on the boxes.

The sales guy told me for the money, the 51 can't be beat right now. He switched between the 51 and the Runco CL-510 DLP project. Since the 51 wasn't calibrated and the CL-510 just had a new bulb installed so it wasn't a fair test....

Even still, I was very, very impressed with the 51. The sales guy went back and forth between a Harlem Globetrooters game on HD and LOTR. Both pictures were very nice. My wife even got excited about it, so that's always a plus.

Jerrod

Originally posted by Raf

So we started moving between the room that had the HS51 and the Fujitsu ( the HS51 is basically 1/10th the price ). First impressions was, well the Fujitsu certainly has more detail ( being that it's a 1080p panel and is connected via the mother of upscalers ) and was brighter by a decent margin. But we sat at the same distance as we sat from the HS51. Put the same material in and DVD after DVD my friends kept saying the same thing "that costs how much more than the other one?"...



Yes, Sony should really be offended with all the "misinformation" in this thread, no? ;)Brian

Originally posted by jeffropaige
sounds good byte, hey what upscaling dvd players are you getting 1:1 over the hdmi port. I want to get one bad but have not had any luck with a really good one that does this?? thanks jeff

That is not what he is saying...

Brian

JUST WHAT GUYS!!!! Pictures taken for my HDMI VS VGA thread. Is there a good place that allows me to host them? Then I will have the thread up today I think!

Originally posted by JJay
The obvious is to make sure its in high contrast mode--make sure iris is set to auto (try the cinema mode button). Brightness will probably end up near 55 and contrast about 75 after avia adjustments. Thanks for the info. I did set up the iris and so forth. My contrast is very similar, but my brightness is much lower, around 35, but that may be due to the fact that my HT is entirely black (floor, ceiling, carpet and trim). I'm still not blown away by the black floor, but it's certainly not anything for me to complain on and on about. If it bugs me overmuch I'll pick up a gray screen to replace my matte white one.

Originally posted by Raf
Well, needless to say I was hooked and ordered it [H51] with the firehawk on the spot.
Not to rain on your parade Raf, but you may want to reconsider the screen. The H51, like all FP, will lose its brightness as the bulb ages, and you may find the screen is not ideal (it may not reflect enough light). Unless you have issues with ambient lighting you might want to consider a studiotek 130, a Da-lite HCCV, or even the Hi Power (if your setup allows for its advantages).

Byte, Rieper, TheFerret, usabrian, zeroendless and others should be able to give you better guidance though.

Just a suggestion,
R.

Thanks for the suggestion.

The salesman and myself discussed this a while. He has been to my room and told me that the FH would be the best choice because of my room color/decor. It will not have lighting but the paint and other things will reflect light and I can't really change that. So we went this way. In fact the room that the HS51 was in the store had similar light reflections are my room and hence the decision was made.

If it doesn't work out then I will have to re-visit this down the road.

Thanks for the information.
Raf

Originally posted by Raul GS
Not to rain on your parade Raf, but you may want to reconsider the screen. The H51, like all FP, will lose its brightness as the bulb ages, and you may find the screen is not ideal (it may not reflect enough light). Unless you have issues with ambient lighting you might want to consider a studiotek 130, a Da-lite HCCV, or even the Hi Power (if your setup allows for its advantages).

Byte, Rieper, TheFerret, usabrian, zeroendless and others should be able to give you better guidance though.

Just a suggestion,
R.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Like i said, component>breakout cable>Vga INPUT A is same as component in. You should observe the same result. I hope you didn't purchased the cable just for testing. .... Another good example of useful thread with misinformation.....:D


Luckily I didn't purchase one. Just made it from this link:

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/vgacable.html

Originally posted by xamphear
Thanks for the info. I did set up the iris and so forth. My contrast is very similar, but my brightness is much lower, around 35, but that may be due to the fact that my HT is entirely black (floor, ceiling, carpet and trim).
The correct brightness setting from Avia also seems to be source and input dependent. For my PC to input A it is 35. For my old DVD player to component input at 480i, the number was 39. For my new Sony upscaling DVD to HDMI, it is 59. This is not unusual, I have seen the same thing on other displays. To get the correct settings, you really need to do it yourself using a test disk like Avia, or the THX setup images available on many THX DVDs.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Regarding the jschefdog list...

Pixel mapping: In the past, with a better knowledge of the processing of the NEC HT1000, I could appreciate the limitations inherent in the projector design. Some of these limitations were overcome with the HT1100, but not all. IMHO, Sony may have made the best possible balance of choices between the needs of the average projector buyer and the higher stakes HT tweaker. With even less info to go on, I find it funny how some folks can know Sony could have done things differently....
I have no idea what design tradeoffs Sony had to make with the HS-51. If providing a pass through on HDMI for 1:1 pixel mapping would have resulted in significantly higher cost or degraded performance in other ways then thay made the right choice. But it may have also been oversight, misunderstanding, miscommunication, management dictates, schedules, or many other factors that can affect the design of a consumer product. From all the comments posted here it is a desirable feature that at least some customers want. It is often mentioned in detailed reviews of digital displays. It is a feature that other projectors have. So I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that Sony should provide it as well. It may be too late for the HS-51, but hopefully they can include it in future projectors, including the HS-51's successor.

BTW. Thanks for all your help getting Sony to resolve the 720P black border problem and posting the info here. I would have posted my HDMI settings when you requested them, but I had just sent my HS-51 in to get the 720P update plus fix another problem. I'm still waiting to get it back (3 weeks and counting), so I suspect they are waiting for parts. I'm going through Home Theater withdrawal big time.

Greetings,

I ordered the HS51 from my dealer on friday. My dealer shipped their units back to Sony for the update and received them ( or some of them ) back on friday. I will confirm the fix once I receive the projector. I will be mating it with a Da-lite High Contrast Cinema Vision ( 92" diagonal ) screen, a Denon 3910 DVD player connected via HDMI, and a high definition cable box connected via DVI.


Regards,

Originally posted by jschefdog
I have no idea what design tradeoffs Sony had to make with the HS-51. If providing a pass through on HDMI for 1:1 pixel mapping would have resulted in significantly higher cost or degraded performance in other ways then thay made the right choice.

The HS-51 did have HDMI 720p 1:1 pixel mapping before the 720p update. The problem we all know, it came with a black border formatting the image all the way around.

I am looking forward to learning more about the HDMI 720p performance on the post-update HS-51.

But I think we're on the same page as far as not knowing what was or was not possible with regard to the removale of the black border.

Originally posted by jeffropaige
sounds good byte, hey what upscaling dvd players are you getting 1:1 over the hdmi port. I want to get one bad but have not had any luck with a really good one that does this?? thanks jeff

I have tried...

Panasonic S97
Denon 2910
Denon 3910
Pioneer 59avi

Of these players, I like the 3910 & 59avi the best, but I am currently using the S97 in the HT. Why? Because it is very close in performance with the latest Panny firmware update, and I am waiting for a good deal on a 5910.

I can not comment on 1:1 pixel mapping as Kris did when he tested the 5910 on the pre-update HS-51. I am just saying, there must be something these players are doing right or better, because their HDMI 720p images look fantastic. No blurring or artifacts, which are not present on other displays. I have some thoughts on why they look good while others report their HTPC performance lacking, and I'm hoping the Iscan HD+ will help me work thru to some conclusions.

The one negative thing I did learn with both the 2910 and Iscan HD, is how the HS-51 handles a DVI signal set with Enhanced 0-255 RGB levels. I saw crush on both black and white peaks. The problem with the 2910 & 3910, they can switch to the Enhanced mode all by themselves, while still reporting Normal 16-235 RGB levels in the Setup menu for HDMI/DVI Black Level.

I have not had either the 2910 or 3910 for awhile, so I don't know how the newer software updates have addressed this particular problem.

As far as the best, raw HDMI/DVI 720p performance... a Panasonic RP-91 with SDI output, thru an Iscan HD was the king of the hill. This setup also had the unique benefit of being able to send a Panny component 480p signal to the Iscan, which nicely rolled off the higher 6-6.5mhz range. This came in very handy on poorly mastered DVDs.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Get around overscan for HTPC + Nvidia User.

Use Nvidia Underscan Feature, set 5%.

Zero...

Are you saying you are reducing the HDMI image size sent to the HS-51 by 5% using the Nvidia underscan feature?

If yes, this is a similar approach Dale and I have discussed, using the Iscan HD+. Adjusting (reducing) the size of the image output from the Iscan HD+, so that it finds synergy with whatever the HS-51 is now doing to the HDMI 720p input. Then end result being a 1:1 mapped image with overscan, but still 1:1 mapping within available screen space.

This is also the follow up question I sent to Sony, asking for a recommendation on what underscan signal size might find synergy with the 720p update and provide 1:1 mapping.

If we are on the same page, I look forward to your pics.

One thing... pay close attention to the fV & fH frequencies, as they should look like fH : 44.95kHz fV : 59.94Hz.

Originally posted by SOWK
JUST WHAT GUYS!!!! Pictures taken for my HDMI VS VGA thread. Is there a good place that allows me to host them? Then I will have the thread up today I think!

Silly rabbitt! You can host images for free almost anywhere, but here are a few good places to start: http://www.imageshack.us/ and http://www.imagevenue.com/

Now get crackin SOWK :)

Originally posted by zeroendless
Get around overscan for HTPC + Nvidia User.

Use Nvidia Underscan Feature, set 5%.



Yes, I noticed this too when fiddling with nvidia underscan. Unfortunately, I didn't bother checking for 1:1 mapping via DVI-to-HDMI because I assumed "underscan" already altered any 1:1 possibilities.

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/2510/nvidia0sw.jpg

Cropping seems fine in your pics, but is it really 1:1 mapping when using nvidia underscan? That is the real question...

If it can be proved that 1:1 through HDMI is possible using nvidia underscan, then you open up a bigger can of worms...

Like for starters, what is HTPC doing that normal DVD players/STB boxes can't do to achieve 1:1... And, also is it the HS51's fault or the DVD/STB equipment to blame for not acheiving 1:1? :confused:

Originally posted by Bytehoven
The HS-51 did have HDMI 720p 1:1 pixel mapping before the 720p update. The problem we all know, it came with a black border formatting the image all the way around.

We should clarify for the board that it is possible to have 1:1 pixel mapping and blanking. Both the Qualia 04 and the Yamaha 1200 have been reviewed by WSR and shown to have 1:1 mapping and blanking. The Qualia was 2 pixels horizontally, and the 1200 was 2 x 3 pixels IIRC

Originally posted by Rieper
If it can be proved that 1:1 through HDMI is possible using nvidia underscan, then you open up a bigger can of worms...

Like for starters, what is HTPC doing that normal DVD players/STB boxes can't do to achieve 1:1... And, also is it the HS51's fault or the DVD/STB equipment to blame for not acheiving 1:1? :confused:

You ask a great question regarding what is a HTPC doing that other devices do differently. The solution to excellent universal HDMI 720p performance probably lies in the answer.

Let's 1st start by considering the notion, 1:1 pixel mapping is not an absolute requirement for excellent image reproduction. It really depends on the quality of the projector processing.

The HT1000 with it's outstanding NEC scaling, is an excellent example of a projector you would have a hard time seeing the difference between 1:1 pass thru and scaled.

2nd... when folks reference 1:1 pass thru, I don't think they really know how many or how few steps the signal travels, even though it comes out 1:1 on the screen. IMHO, the design process weaves a very delicate balance of a number of factors, to try for the best image possible. In this regard, every projector may be a unique set of stages due to the aesthetic processing goal of the manufacturer. The HS-51 being a 12 bit process, probably tries to apply as much of that processing power to the image as possible, which we should expect. However, when the incoming signal is non standard, the projector has to adapt the signal. This adaptation sounds like it comes at a price, as indicated by the observations of some HTPC users.

3rd... Sony did not come up with a quick 720p update. I would assume the delay was to manage the required changes, so that a proper 720p signal would be presented in the highest quality possible. As a result, a perfect HDMI 720p signal may have the best chance at being reproduced without artifacts, while a HDMI 720p signal a little rough around the edges has problems.

I think we are on the right track. Perhaps the post 720p update HS-51 will require (2) sets of timings. 1) a perfect 720p signal so that the intended processing of the new design, processes the signal with the best quality possible. 2) a secondary set of underscan timings which allows the new process to present a 1:1 image inside the cropped & zoomed 720p image format. Will it be true pass thru 1:1? Probably not, but perhaps in the context of the final result, it won't be any better or worse so long as the HS-51 is able to handle the signal with the minimum impact.

Folks with inflexible HTPC video cards may always need to use the VGA-RGB connection to get the best results.

Hopefully the HDMI connection will provide universally excellent performance with a little extra attention to the setup of the input signal.

Byte
good point that 1:1 is a means and not the end, which should be the best video image possible. Even using Input A -VGA (RGB) Computer the is HS51 is not 1:1 during auto-iris processing. The HS51 increases the video levels to compensate for the lowered light levels!

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Byte
good point that 1:1 is a means and not the end, which should be the best video image possible. Even using Input A -VGA (RGB) Computer the is HS51 is not 1:1 during auto-iris processing. The HS51 increases the video levels to compensate for the lowered light levels!

Whoa there cowboy. ;)

I think you'll agree the video signal processing used under auto iris to boost video levels and faux expand ansi contrast, is a different matter than how the image is mapped to the display panels.

However, maybe there is some form of dithering. Is that what you mean?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=527019


Here it is, lots of pics of VGA vs HDMI. The Offical thread!

Called the Offical HS51 HDMI VS VGA thread.

-SOWK

byte---thanks for the dvd player recommendations I think I might try the panny 97. What ever happened to the new hs51's that were coming out did sony ever release those? anybody ever find any? jeff

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Whoa there cowboy. ;)

I think you'll agree the video signal processing used under auto iris to boost video levels and faux expand ansi contrast, is a different matter than how the image is mapped to the display panels.

Ride along with me for a spell partner. :)

The definition and “benefit” of 1:1 mapping is that each pixel in the source is represented by an identical pixel in the display. Taking our 1280 x 720 matrix, lets pick a pixel in the source, say [ 450, 277 ]. Lets say its RGB value is RGB( 36, 24, 36 ). If the display if 1:1 mapped, the value of [ 450, 277 ] in the display should also be RGB( 36, 24, 36 ).

What happens if that frame activates the auto iris. Well the overall frame is now darker, the HS51’s video processing boosts the video levels ( similar to a dynamic gamma ) to compensate and maintain correct brightness and contrast. What does this do to pixel [ 450, 277 ]? Well. its display will be something like RGB( 48, 26, 40 ). Clearly no longer 1:1 mapped!

The same transformations will occur by using different gamma curves, color spaces, etc. The end result will be display pixels not having the same values as source pixels, i.e. not 1:1 mapped, and yet the overall image quality may be much better!

As I have stated in the past, 1:1 mapping is a means, not the end. The end is the best image quality for watching movies, by any means necessary. For me that is via 1080i over HDMI. If you are using the HS51 as a computer display, by all means use Input A-VGA-Computer Mode.

That's a very strict definition of 1:1 mapping. I think that when most of us discuss 1:1 mapping (at least when I think of it), we think of it each pixel in the source is mapped to 1 and only 1 pixel on the display. In your example, pixel [450, 277] in the source would be mapped to [450,277] on the display, without any of [449, 277] or other neighboring pixels being influencing it.

I think most everyone here realizes that your definition or 1:1 is not practical or desireable, especially since levels need to be adjusted based on ambient lighting, screen, etc.

The idea behind 1:1 mapping, as most of us (I think) see it, is that the display fully resolves each and every pixel in the source, and if processing/scaling is applied (like the apparent overscan found after the fix), then 1) each pixel is not displayed, and more importantly 2) they are not fully resolved. With a 720p source, and 720p panels, but some overscan (or other scaling/processing) essentailly none of the pixels on the display map to any from the source.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Ride along with me for a spell partner. :)

The definition and “benefit” of 1:1 mapping is that each pixel in the source is represented by an identical pixel in the display. Taking our 1280 x 720 matrix, lets pick a pixel in the source, say [ 450, 277 ]. Lets say its RGB value is RGB( 36, 24, 36 ). If the display if 1:1 mapped, the value of [ 450, 277 ] in the display should also be RGB( 36, 24, 36 ).

What happens if that frame activates the auto iris. Well the overall frame is now darker, the HS51’s video processing boosts the video levels ( similar to a dynamic gamma ) to compensate and maintain correct brightness and contrast. What does this do to pixel [ 450, 277 ]? Well. its display will be something like RGB( 48, 26, 40 ). Clearly no longer 1:1 mapped!

The same transformations will occur by using different gamma curves, color spaces, etc. The end result will be display pixels not having the same values as source pixels, i.e. not 1:1 mapped, and yet the overall image quality may be much better!

As I have stated in the past, 1:1 mapping is a means, not the end. The end is the best image quality for watching movies, by any means necessary. For me that is via 1080i over HDMI. If you are using the HS51 as a computer display, by all means use Input A-VGA-Computer Mode.

Ahhhh... I do see your point, Buckaroo. ;)

I was not thinking outside the spacial geometry box.

Beyond the traditional decoder, white balance and grayscale testing and calibration methods, are there testing/calibration methods to tweak a display for source pixel versus rendered pixel performace?

Originally posted by stanger89

I think most everyone here realizes that your definition or 1:1 is not practical or desireable, especially since levels need to be adjusted based on ambient lighting, screen, etc.

levels of what ? need to be adjusted based on ambient lighting, screen, etc? :)

Your "definition" of 1:1 seems to be satisfied if there are exactly the same number of pixels in the source as the display!

How would you verify that position [ 450, 277] was 1:1 mapped if the value was not the same?

To reiterate, 1280x720 1:1 mapping means that the pixel RGB values in the source from [1,1] to [ 1280, 720 ] are equal to pixel RGB values in the display from [1,1] to [ 1280, 720 ].

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
levels of what ? need to be adjusted based on ambient lighting, screen, etc? :)

Picture levels, Brightness, Contrast, color controls all need to be adjusted in the projector. EG in a light controlled room with a nice grey screen you'll have your brightness lower than in a non-controlled room with a white screen. And brightness contrast settings will vary projector to projector.

Your "definition" of 1:1 seems to be satisfied if there are exactly the same number of pixels in the source as the display!

My definition is satisfied if each source pixel is mapped to 1 and ONLY 1 output pixel, not combined/contaminated with it's neighbors.

How would you verify that position [ 450, 277] was 1:1 mapped if the value was not the same?

How do you verify 1:1, easy, you feed the display a 1x1 checkerboard pattern, and if the pattern is fully resolved when the display is calibrated for your room then it's verified.

In your example, you should be able to feed it a pattern with black background and the pixel [450,277] white, and you should be able to locate that 1 pixel, it should appear white, and the pixels around it should not be affected by it.

To reiterate, 1280x720 1:1 mapping means that the pixel RGB values in the source from [1,1] to [ 1280, 720 ] are equal to pixel RGB values in the display from [1,1] to [ 1280, 720 ].

By that definition you wouldn't be able to have 1:1 mapping with a Component video signal, even if it were via HDMI, because the PJ would have to convert YPbPr to RGB.

My definition allows for 1:1 mapping of a component HDMI signal.

Good discussion about what 1:1 pixel mapping actually means. My interpretation is similar to those posted above. It does not mean no processing. The first requirement is no scaling. The PJ displays 1 and only one pixel for each pixel in the image, although some of them might be blanked. The second is that the PJ attempts to display each pixel as it was input, independent of the surrounding pixels, no smoothing or averaging. If the image contains a white pixel surrounded by black pixels, then the projector will attempt to display that same pixel as white and the surrounding pixels as black. The appearance of white and black may be altered by the PJs limitations and the settings (brightness, contrast, etc.) but the PJ will not deliberately alter the pixels appearance based on the surrounding pixels. The key word is attempt, there is no currently no PJ that can display a 100% white pixel surrounded by 0% black pixels.

Using a B&W 1 pixel checkerboard from my HTPC to Input A, I could clearly see that the HS-51 was attempting to display this checkerboard. The pixels definitely were not fully black or white, but I don't think an LCD panel is capable of that kind of contast ratio. But each white pixel looked sort of white and each black pixel looked dark gray. In my opinion, this was 1:1 pixel mapping.

By contrast, when I switched to HDMI, the background became a uniform gray. It did not appear that the PJ was attempting to display distinct B&W pixels. If there was any scaling going on it was hard to detect. I measured the width of a Window from both inputs and it appeared to be the same size. But it did seem to be averaging or smoothing the the pixels based on the surrounding pixels. In my opinion this was not 1:1 pixel mapping.

If you want to see the difference yourself, see these pictures (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4725317#post4725317) I posted back in November. Not very good quality, but the difference is apparent.

This effect may only occur using DVI (RGB) output from a PC, but it was not subtle. It also made text look thicker and softer. HDMI also supports other video formats, so it may not affect them.

As I said somewhere way back in this thread, this effect is very obvious when using a Windows desktop, but it may have very little effect on the perceived quality of video, especially DVD which is lower resolution than the Windows desktop. I've had an HTPC for years because it was the best way to feed my old CRT projector using RGB. But once I tried the Sony upscaling DVD player over HDMI with the HS-51, I prefered it to my HTPC on Input A. I used 1080I to avoid the black borders, but I couldn't tell much difference when trying 720P. The biggest plus was that the color looked better. It also seemed smoother on horizontal or vertical pans, something my HTPC always had problems with. If the HDMI processing had any negative impact on the video quality I never noticed it.

I still think all PJs should offer 1:1 pixel mapping on HDMI for people who want to connect PCs. It does affect the clarity of the desktop. This is not unique to projectors, I have seen the same problem with LCD monitors scaling non-native input, it just doesn't look sharp. But I would agree that for watching DVDs it may not matter, in the end they look great over HDMI. It may matter for true 720P Hi Def sources, but I don't have one to try.

Originally posted by jschefdog
But I would agree that for watching DVDs it may not matter, in the end they look great over HDMI. It may matter for true 720P Hi Def sources, but I don't have one to try.

BTW it does matter alot when you take into consideration 720P video. The difference will be huge, but I think Byte is right if you can send out a 16-235 black level from a standerd definition DVD player, you probably wont see much of a difference. But I can garenttie the colors are not as acurate. they may look better thru HDMI, but thats what you preceive to look better. If you want a no comprimise color reproduction you have to choose VGA. But Alot of people like oversaturated images to begin with anyhow! Oh well!

I have been lurking and reading this thread for a while now to follow the issues and fixes for the HS-51. I have an HS-51 fed DVI-HDMI from an iscan HD+ using a 110" Da-Lite Audio Vision screen. Prior to the screen showing up I was view on a slightly off-white wall and the image overall looked great, considering it was being shot on a wall.

After getting the screen mounted up and the projector on it ceiling mount I started wathcing various source material (mainly DVD but some HD DirecTV) and noticed some horizontal lines/bands across the screen. After playing with it some more and going through some recalibration using the HD+ test signals and Video Essentials I decided that the issues was likely with the projector, the screen, or both.

I sent my HS-51 back to Sony this week for the 720p fix and other tweaks and in the interim pulled a computer oriented DLP projector from the office to compare with the HS-51. Interestingly enough I did not see the horizontal bands with this DLP projector (older InFocus 800x600 projector) which is connected to the VGA out on the HD+.

I had originally thought that the bands I was seeing were possible from pixels in the HS51 and the perf in the screen, even though they didn't really look like a moire pattern. However, now I'm not so sure. The InFocus image doesn't look nearly as good as the Sony in most respects but the bands are definately not there.

Any ideas or suggestions to help narrow this down? Assuming Sony turns my projector around fairly quick I'll be able to test after I get it back and still have a little time to exchange the screen if I need to.

Any (constructive) suggestions appreciated.

chad

Originally posted by SOWK
But I can garenttie the colors are not as acurate. they may look better thru HDMI, but thats what you preceive to look better. If you want a no comprimise color reproduction you have to choose VGA. But Alot of people like oversaturated images to begin with anyhow!

There you go again. ;)

Upon what to you base these statements?

Originally posted by SOWK
BTW it does matter alot when you take into consideration 720P video. The difference will be huge, but I think Byte is right if you can send out a 16-235 black level from a standerd definition DVD player, you probably wont see much of a difference. But I can garenttie the colors are not as acurate. they may look better thru HDMI, but thats what you preceive to look better. If you want a no comprimise color reproduction you have to choose VGA. But Alot of people like oversaturated images to begin with anyhow! Oh well!
This is utter nonsense SOWK. You clearly don't have a very good understanding of how projectors work and how to calibrate them. I agree with your assessment that VGA may be sharper and allow for better 1:1 mapping. But your comments about colors have been so off the mark they are totally indefensible. Not only do you not understand about calibrating the colors for each input, but you also did not understand what 16-235 meant. Moreover, HDMI in many cases (I assume Sony as well) allows for colorspace conversion at 10 bit rate as compared to the 8 bit limitation of all other inputs.

Raul

Originally posted by Raul GS
This is utter nonsense SOWK. You clearly don't have a very good understanding of how projectors work and how to calibrate them. I agree with your assessment that VGA may be sharper and allow for better 1:1 mapping. But your comments about colors have been so off the mark they are totally indefensible. Not only do you not understand about calibrating the colors for each input, but you also did not understand what 16-235 meant. Moreover, HDMI in many cases (I assume Sony as well) allows for colorspace conversion at 10 bit rate as compared to the 8 bit limitation of all other inputs.

Raul

You, along with many tell me I can't calibrate. No one yet has given out any information for me to try. If you and anyone of the people that tell me I dont know how to calibrate, please post some setting for me or anyone to adjust.

All you'll say is play with the RPC, brightness, sharpness, contrast.

Gee, like I haven't tryed that. Man, When I even had a Sony HDTV, I even went into the service menu to correct the red push on the Sony Tube. Why, becasue someone actually posted something to try! Witch none of you have so far! So start posting and I will try some of the values!

Originally posted by SOWK
So start posting and I will try some of the values!

Here ya go... here are my (3) setups for use with the Panasonic S97, via HDMI 720p with 16-235 Video RGB levels & YCbCr 4:4:4 color space. They also work well for my HDTV TV tuner.

Setting 1) for near perfect D65 tracking thanks to Eric.

Auto Iris ON
Lamp LOW
Contrast 80
Brightness 58
Color 50
Hue 50
Sharpness 0
Gamma 0
RG- 132
GG- 41
BG- 37
RB- 90
GB- 128
BB- 134

Setting 2) for 7800+K

Auto Iris ON
Lamp LOW
Contrast 80
Brightness 58
Color 50
Hue 50
Sharpness 0
Gamma 0
RG- 125
GG- 65
BG- 75
RB- 100
GB- 128
BB- 128

Setting 3) for watching sports

Auto Iris ON
Lamp LOW
Contrast 80
Brightness 58
Color 50
Hue 50
Sharpness 0
Gamma 3
RG- 120
GG- 65
BG- 80
RB- 95
GB- 128
BB- 134

The RGB bias/gain values were programmed into the (3) W/B registers within the service mode.

First off SOWK, you cannot just borrow the calibrated settings from someone else and expect to have a calibrated projector. Your the bulb, its age, your room, and the screen affect your calibration settings. At best, calibration settings from other users can help guide you, but be careful, they can lead you down the wrong path in cases where their FP circumstances differ from yours. Here is a link to a calibration done by Dan Francis, who is an ISF certified calibrator

http://www.digitalaudiovideo.com/reviews/sonyvplhs51_review.shtml

and here is a link from a forum discussion where Dan Francis participated.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=521910&highlight=dan+francis

BTW, Byte tried really hard to get some insight into his calibration process since he was able to address some of the gray scale problems the H51 has exhibited, but to no avail since the info was part of DF's intellectual property and had financial value.

Hope it helps,
Raul

Originally posted by Raul GS
BTW, Byte tried really hard to get some insight into his calibration process since he was able to address some of the gray scale problems the H51 has exhibited, but to no avail since the info was part of DF's intellectual property and had financial value.

True. Dan did offer to share some info in private, but I passed.

I am keeping an eye on WM, since he has some very clever tricks happening with the Qualia. I am hoping some of those tricks might cross over to the HS-51, but so far he has not commented. While I would pass on sending my HS-51 to Dan, I would seriously consider sending it to WM.

Thankfully, some other folks who had some extensive colorfacts time on their HS-51s, have been willing to share their findings. Our own awtryau89 was kind enough to share his calibrations, and I found his D65 settings worked very well and was a better starting point for me, as I went for a higher color temp which I prefer.

hey byte, are the updated hs51s starting to get to the stores yet or is sony still holding them? I have someone who wants to get one but doesnt want to have to send it in to get it updated to the newer firmware version. Any inside info on that? jeff

Zero...

Are you saying you are reducing the HDMI image size sent to the HS-51 by 5% using the Nvidia underscan feature?

If yes, this is a similar approach Dale and I have discussed, using the Iscan HD+. Adjusting (reducing) the size of the image output from the Iscan HD+, so that it finds synergy with whatever the HS-51 is now doing to the HDMI 720p input. Then end result being a 1:1 mapped image with overscan, but still 1:1 mapping within available screen space.

This is also the follow up question I sent to Sony, asking for a recommendation on what underscan signal size might find synergy with the 720p update and provide 1:1 mapping.

If we are on the same page, I look forward to your pics.

One thing... pay close attention to the fV & fH frequencies, as they should look like fH : 44.95kHz fV : 59.94Hz.

ya guys look busy, 3 seperate threads on one goal while i was away..:D

Yes, underscan 5% setting as Rieper has already posted, resulting in 1216x684 to overcome overscan. Now i'm more comfort taking screenshots with at least equal image size to begin with.

FYI, i didn't try powerstrip this time try to get what i been trying in the past before and after the fix. If there's only one particular, unique set of timing settings will sony accept, it has to be one picky SOB i ever heard. Even their own engineers have no clue of this magic number, go figure. I used PS unique feature of locking the frequences while changing all settings but nothing came close. I observed my 6412 fv&fh freq from time to time, occasionally, it bounce within range and won't stay at one freq. I guess it won't matter as long as it stays at the tolerate range of acceptance freq.

Hs50/51 hardcorer, here come the money shot...LOL

http://www.danator.com/img/hs51/720pvgahdmi.jpg

Both via HTPC 720p, one with vga, the other with dvi>hdmi(reduce overscan)

I just can't help posting this shot, far too valuable for critical viewing. I say screw the pattern, put on some real world PG13 screen shot..:D

If you can't tell the differences, you must be looking at the right place..:D. For once, i think we can all agreed both inputs look FINE...LOL.

FYI, both went tho quick basic-calibration with DVE, AVIA, THX pattern and remapped 15-235 with ffdshow. Smart III version 2 coming soon...

Last night I was able to completely eliminate overscan for both 1080i HDMI and also 720p HDMI on my non HTPC.

This was achieved using a isScanHD+ and the latest beta release of their software that allows UNDERSCAN.

My VPL-HS51 has not been updated.

720p mode is still masked however now no overscan.

ALso I did not need to tweak any of the timing data. Setting the Underscan to a value of 27 and viewing at 1080i HDMI allows full display of the 16:19 panel with 100% of the original image.

The 100% image was verified using the built in geometry test pattern of the iScanHD+. I am now able to see the outside perimeter of the 1 pixel wide test around the perimeter. Also, when there is overscan you virtually see no difference between a 1:78 and a 1:85. Now a 1:85 displays properly.

Prior to using the UNDERSCAN feature of the iScanHD I was never able to achieve this via HDMI only VGA INPUT-A.

There is still some processing going on but the picture is very, very good!

Gary

Hey Zero, I actually think picture #2 looks better! But it may just be a difference in the quality of the picture taking (slight blur on #1).

Brian

hey zero is there anyway you can use your settings to enlarge her melons. lol nice shot. jeff

What movie is that? I'd like to see that scene in motion...

Originally posted by reaper
What movie is that? I'd like to see that scene in motion...

That movie with Salma Hayek ('After the Sunset'), is available here: http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/after_the_sunset/

Hey Zero, I actually think picture #2 looks better! But it may just be a difference in the quality of the picture taking

The fun part is you don't which one is vga/hdmi, keep guessing. :D

FYI, focusing is locked with same shutter speed and F stop, RGB bias and gain on video however is not the same, but notice they aren't on the same frame, could be actual movie lighting play the trick? never known.

Perhaps this is better, LOTR-ROTK starz HD ts file playback with HTPC, again one is hdmi with underscan compensation and the other is vga.

http://danator.com/img/hs51/720pvgahdmi2.jpg

100% crop from 8m pixels, now that's interesting. One is capturing the pixels while the other doesn't or less due to processing? hint...

Jeff, PG13 can't do melon, how about eyes ball?...LOL

Originally posted by zeroendless
The fun part is you don't which one is vga/hdmi, keep guessing. :D

FYI, focusing is locked with same shutter speed and F stop, RGB bias and gain on video however is not the same, but notice they aren't on the same frame, could be actual movie lighting play the trick? never known.

Perhaps this is better, LOTR-ROTK starz HD ts file playback with HTPC, again one is hdmi with underscan compensation and the other is vga.

http://danator.com/img/hs51/720pvgahdmi2.jpg

100% crop from 8m pixels, now that's interesting. One is capturing the pixels while the other doesn't or less due to processing? hint...

Jeff, PG13 can't do melon, how about eyes ball?...LOL

I like the more "filmlike" second shot. I guess this is why Sony uses "processing" on the HDMI and leaves VGA unprocessed for desktop work.

Hey Zero, glad you finally started using that 20D!

yes, after the sunset. One of the best DVD transfer. PQ wise....and Reaper, that scene last for minute...LOL

Zero, how did you get a 720p clip of 'After the Sunset'?

No, it isn't. i meant htpc 720p out. I do however got fox 720p TS file, may be that's better choice of screenshot? ANYway, The ROTR is HD 1080i transfer but HBO-cropped to 1.78.

gary,

so you have the pre-fix version, that's great.

Have you tried check out the desktop feeding htpc dvi>iscan hd+>hdmi hs51 with 720p and notice the same blurring desktop/texts compare to vga 720p?? Use iscan to reset the timings from that pc source. I love to see this combo, clarifing iscan vs htpc on this issue for a while now...

Originally posted by zeroendless
....and Reaper, that scene last for minute...LOL


I heard she poses as a man in that movie as well... http://jm.g.free.fr/smileys/jpshakehead.sml.gif

Hey Zero, glad you finally started using that 20D!

Try to get away from the cave and do more outdoor, my plan for next year CES show.

Originally posted by zeroendless
gary,

so you have the pre-fix version, that's great.

Have you tried check out the desktop feeding htpc dvi>iscan hd+>hdmi hs51 with 720p and notice the same blurring desktop/texts compare to vga 720p?? Use iscan to reset the timings from that pc source. I love to see this combo, clarifing iscan vs htpc on this issue for a while now...

Yes it is a pre-fix version.

Just in case there was any confusion with my original post. I do not have a HTPC. My testing that resulted with no overscan was with the following equipment:

HD-250 DirecTv hdmi out @ 1080i --> iScanHD+ --> 1080i HDMI -->VPL-HS51
and
Panasonic RP82 SDI 480i out --> iScanHD+ --> 1080i HDMI --> VPL-HS51

I also tested 720p output from iScanHD+ and was able to totally eliminate overscan. The border blanking of course was still there but the visible image had no overscan.

Gary

Originally posted by zeroendless


http://www.danator.com/img/hs51/720pvgahdmi.jpg



Bottem is VGA! Easy to tell! even with the small screen shots! It plus you can still see, less grey scale on the man in the background, and a red push still from the HDMI!

The differences are really easy to tell at full size!

Originally posted by SOWK
Bottem is VGA! Easy to tell! even with the small screen shots! It plus you can still see, less grey scale on the man in the background, and a red push still from the HDMI!

The differences are really easy to tell at full size!

Actually, I thought the top was VGA because you can clearly make out the SDE. Whereas the bottom is more "filmlike" (processing on HDMI?).

Originally posted by Rieper
Actually, I thought the top was VGA because you can clearly make out the SDE. Whereas the bottom is more "filmlike" (processing on HDMI?).

The Screen Door you might be seing is your pixels on your monitor. I would find it very hard to believe his camera could pick up on the pixel structer of the HS51 from that far away, as well as the Picture it self be such a small size!

Look at my pics in the Offical HS51 VGA vs HDMI, as you will be able to see from some screens very easaly witch ones have the SD, and witch ones do not, based off distance!

I´d agree that VGA is better. On HDMI it looks as if Brosnan´s face has a slight grey, a little less snap, and Salma looks a bit more red on HDMI.

Sowk. Just in case you have doubt,
The screenshot were done with camera equipment cost more than hs51, it does more than human eyes from distance. If it wasn't the location of projector seating, i could have the shot done leveled with projector to get perfectly alignment image...well, can't have it all.

The color, brightness of one image may appear different from one monitor to another but the fainted blurring SDE is obvious. If you are excepting a crystal sharp 1 pixel screen door from this distance, that's another story.