Originally posted by zeroendless
Sowk. Just in case you have doubt,
The screenshot were done with camera equipment cost more than hs51, it does more than human eyes from distance. If it wasn't the location of projector seating, i could have the shot done leveled with projector to get perfectly alignment image...well, can't have it all.

The color, brightness of one image may appear different from one monitor to another but the fainted blurring SDE is obvious. If you are excepting a crystal sharp 1 pixel screen door from this distance, that's another story.

Most camera as better then human eyes. But You screen shots are also compressed into small pictures, about 640X480 or less, so any Screen Door, would not really showup.

The eye shot is not a close up image but 100% cropped. Meanning NO resized from original 3504x2336 pixels size but part of the image was cropped into smaller picture. If you don't get it, i'll post the whole image but resized version later tonite, so you know what it meant.

Originally posted by zeroendless
The eye shot is not a close up image but 100% cropped. Meanning NO resized from original 3504x2336 pixels size but part of the image was cropped into smaller picture. If you don't get it, i'll post the whole image but resized version later tonite, so you know what it meant.

I am refering to the Girl picture!

Originally posted by SOWK
I am refering to the Girl picture!

After reading through your own thread, it shows you know less than you seem to boast: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5433174#post5433174

I cannot take anything you say as serious proof, when you clearly don't even understand the basics of Video RGB signals.

Originally posted by Raf
Thanks for the suggestion.

The salesman and myself discussed this a while. He has been to my room and told me that the FH would be the best choice because of my room color/decor. It will not have lighting but the paint and other things will reflect light and I can't really change that. So we went this way. In fact the room that the HS51 was in the store had similar light reflections are my room and hence the decision was made.

If it doesn't work out then I will have to re-visit this down the road.

Thanks for the information.
Raf

Dont worry mate.
I have and am currently trying out some screens with the HS-50 - those are:
Stewart Studiotek 130
Stewart Greyhawk RS
Stewart Firehawk
XUS grey
Carada brilliant white, classic white, high con gray
2 no namers

I have a bright white room and roof with white furniture.
Ambient light from outside is taken care of with "Cinema shades" so there is only minimal light spill (small slit between shade and window recession) coming in and none direct onto the screen.

Projector: HS-50 ceiling mounted (allmost optimal for sweetpsot of light in the face). Projection distance about 5 mtrs. Seating distance about 4.5 mtrs.
Current screen: Euroscreen matte white gain 1 (240*135 cms)

- The studiotek is absolutely no good for my Sony HS-50. Blacks get greyish as on my current screen and it hotpsots a bit to much for my taste. Actually i dont find a lot better than my current screen when it comes to contrast.
Colours were very good though with no apparent tint.

- The greyhawk tones down the whites and skintones too much for my taste and it does also not handle ambient light as good as the FH-
Allthough it enhances the blacks a little bit more than the firehawk in dark scenes it gets lost when there are mixed scenes = semibright scene with dark parts and details.

- Firehawk
*Normals scenes with bright AND dark portions of the picture get an EXTREME gain in contrast due to more solid blacks and white very close to my current white screen. Details in the dark really stick out now. Eve my GF commented on the 3d feel of the picture and se aint no homecinema freak - thats for sure :D
*Dark scenes get a boost in the dark portions of the screen
* Pitch black scenes does not seem to be enhanced a lot by the FH though.
PRobably the enhanced contrast comes from its masking of mbient light - thus not "taking in" light reflected from walls, ceiling and furniture.
* Colours go a bit towards the cool compared to my Euroscreen but not a lot
* In a solid uniform bright scene (like white background) you can see the viewing cone effects = the whites get a little bit greyer at the far edges of the screen. This is normally not seen when viewing movies though. Also with a very bright picture i have sometimes seen the "metallic" stuff in the screen reflecting a single hot pixel very bright. at normal movie viewing I have not seen this though - only during calibration with reference whites.
* Turn on the light and the firehawk is still very viewable compared to the other screens.
Summary - Firehawk totaly sweeps the mat with the other screens I have tested above.
I have seen bright films, dark films, DVE reference material, animated you name it.

For me there can be only two
Firehawk and maybe (f i can get my hands on one to test it) the Sony Cromavue special made for the HS-50 :)
Stewart has (from what i read) hade screens using the same technicque as the sony for a long time so I dont have my hopes set to high for the Sony screen (even though comercials for it look indeed great):D

I am certainly leaning towards a 270*150 cm Firehawk deluxe frame screen even though the price tag is steep. I think this is a screen that I will keep for years to come so I see it as an investment (compared to a PJ that is allmost like a PC - its old after a year :))

Regards
Boogieman

Nice review Boogieman

I don’t suppose you would have access to a Da-Lite Hi power screen to review? I am trying to decide on what screen to go with? I have narrowed it down to the Fire hawk or Hi Power.

Thanks

I got the Draper m2500, gain ~2.2. if u can get a good copy of this screen (without vertical streaks, some call it tire track), it's much better than HP due to angular reflective material.

Originally posted by Rieper
After reading through your own thread, it shows you know less than you seem to boast: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5433174#post5433174

I cannot take anything you say as serious proof, when you clearly don't even understand the basics of Video RGB signals.

Well, the proof is right in the picture from Zero. not me!


But I never said I knew everything.

I admit I was very unclear about the Studio vs PC black levels. Thats ok, I know now. But so far thats all I was unclear about.

Everyone has given out so incorrect information here and there. I will not dicuss anyone in particular. But I still like to hear what they have to say! Because they could know something I don't. and I'll gain even more videophile knowledge. But I am a perfectionest, and Just got everything right the first time. So I didn't need to really learn about the Studio levels untill now! I heard about it, but have always used displays that work with the devices I was using on them.

Unfortunately,,... you pick was wrong. SOWK... if i got what you meant there.

vga on top on both shots.

Ouch!

Originally posted by zeroendless
Unfortunately,,... you pick was wrong. SOWK... if i got what you meant there.

vga on top on both shots.

Originally posted by Raf
Ouch!

Well, regardless, anyone who has tryed VGA vs HDMI and understands why you would want 1:1 mapping will prefer VGA!

Originally posted by zeroendless
Unfortunately,,... you pick was wrong. SOWK... if i got what you meant there.

vga on top on both shots.

What calibration setting you have for the HDMI? If the Bottem pic is from HDMI, The Color and grey scale look better then your VGA input.

I am not someone who will not rip a product apart. If someone can get HDMI to look better then VGA I will use that. But I still loose to much fine detail, to use the HDMI vs VGA, due to the non 1:1mapping.

I still can't get my colors from HDMI as acurate as the standard VGA input of the Sony's Input A, Bytes settings helped alot, but not quite there yet!

I can understand the screenshot can be distracting specially for guys...LOL. We tend to make mistake under the melon alert. I would..........

I once said i take vga anyday due to overscan, but now look like i get 2nd chioce. That's great.

Both sources were calibrated with basic disks while not a much decent tool hence i made no comments which is much superior than the other. I'll wait for the quiet weekend to get my smart III v2 started, then decide which i'll picked. Red or green push, i may go for one with higher CR.

What calibration setting you have for the HDMI? If the Bottem pic is from HDMI, The Color and grey scale look better then your VGA input.

Sowk, hdmi was pre-set for 6412 while vga for htpc. I just hooked them up both to pc for the quick screenshot. Not much time were spend to get it calibrated. There are many factors could affect the image outcome...media (cables), sources, video card if htpc ( nvidia tend to more saturatured than ati to my eyes), video rendering, screen, just to name a fews. My setting sould be working for you but also could be the opposite. They weren't my best setting not until i confirm with a decent calibration tool, until then, i will post my result.

Originally posted by SOWK
But I never said I knew everything.

True, but maybe it's time for a screen name change, SOWK ;)

There are a number of things you are doing incorrectly.

Do you have Digital Video Essentials or AVIA? If yes, take some time and follow them all the way thru their instruction and calibration process.

When you have everything happening correctly, you should have a hard time telling the difference between VGA-RGB, VGA-YCbCr, HDMI-RGB, HDMI-YCbCr & Component.

If I had offered an answer on Zero's pictures, it would have only been a guess. I did not see anything that clearly told me one was VGA or HDMI.

I think YOU should continue to use which ever input produces the best image for your setup.

Incidently... my setting would not help if the Bravo D2 is sending out PC RGB levels. Nothing helps that except your DVI->VGA solution.

Originally posted by SOWK

But I still like to hear what they have to say!

I am glad that you listen and learn as you go SOWK.

Because they could know something I don't. and I'll gain even more videophile knowledge.

Thats the great thing about forums :)

But I am a perfectionest, and Just got everything right the first time.

If you got it right - then the problem is gone right, and people can learn from what you wrote.


[QUOTE]END OF Originally posted by SOWK
-------------------
Wanted to start saying thanks for your efforts in the VGA-HDMI thread and then about the Hs-50 thread that is going bye bye allmost in my "faourites list"......

What I am trying to say - please try to keep this a Sony issue thread and NOT just "word-fights", "whos the wisest ..xxx." and so on-thread.

If any important info is out theer please bring it out but dont try to enlarge this thread just for the sake of it, or just because opinions differ.
Opinions can be interesting for a message or two but when they go on for page and page without leading to anyhing, they get really annoying and others might miss some REALLY important info since they just skip reading the "wordfights".

If some guys want to go rabble then please start a "knockout" thread and keep it there unti leverything is settled or use messanger or likewise, because this thread is getting as washed out as an image on a bad screen due to all the "nice chit chat" ;)

Of course I hope someone will tell me the same way when i start rabbling "personal issues" for to long.

No disrespect - just my personal opinion about "thred-filling" due to opinion issues that really does not involve the masses.
Keep it focused from now on please and I think the best way to stop this is to do a REAL investigation with some evident prrof - write a good long interesting post and THEN take the credits from that (and I see thats what you have done - please keep that kind of posts in THAT thread). Dont make this into a messanger board please.

Now I AM DONE rabbling without reason - really sorry for the inconvenience but i hope that everyone can bury the axe now (or pick at me - i dont care :) )

Regards
Boogieman

Originally posted by [Europe]Boogiem


If you got it right - then the problem is gone right, and people can learn from what you wrote.



I did get it right, but only with VGA, I am now looking for help from byte and other to get my HDMI perfect to! But I do understand why people whould not want to spend extra money for a unit when it should work great out of box. I think that is what byte and others are trying to do.

But untill a 1:1 mapping fix, and no proccessing fix can be issued. The VGA is the only way to go for me. I want the best I can get from my display.

I agree that HDMI should be the only connection needed for the future on a digital display. But SONY please help us get a fix, we need it!

Plus I just bought your PSP. So help out a big Sony Spender! lol

ya man i got the psp also hook a brother up sony, help us find a fix so we can get 1:1 on the hs51. :) jeff ( the psp is sweet isnt it sowk, i got wipeout pure) ;) sorry back to your regularly scheduled hs51 talk

Originally posted by zeroendless
vga on top on both shots.
On the closeup of the eye it's interesting that the VGA shot has a much more apparent pixel structure. I never noticed this difference, but can't say that I looked that close when switching between the two. Can you see this by eye, or is it only picked up by the camera? I don't know what kind of processing they could do on HDMI that would make the pixels less obvious, but it appears to be an improvement in the photos.

I picked up the DVI/VGA blackbox and have been checking it out. I have noticed a very visible increase in vertical banding over my PC VGA direct. This is present in both my OTA HD tuner signal and my Bravo D2 signal. I have set the dot phase with the APA menu selection and turn it back off. I then manualy dialed the vaule around and saw the bands changing but never diminishing. Any ideas on what I might be doing wrong? No VB has been seen through the HDMI input.
Thanks!

I read that HS51 with serial number > 32840 already have the various fixes offered by Sony. But I just bought a HS51 and the serial number doesn't have 5 digits like that.

The serial number is s01-2000844-4
Do I have the fixes?
The Sony esupport website doesn't work anymore (returns an error)
esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

where are located and are you sure its the hs51 and not the hs50? the hs50 doesnt have the usb connection on the back i believe. jeff

On the closeup of the eye it's interesting that the VGA shot has a much more apparent pixel structure. I never noticed this difference, but can't say that I looked that close when switching between the two. Can you see this by eye, or is it only picked up by the camera? I don't know what kind of processing they could do on HDMI that would make the pixels less obvious, but it appears to be an improvement in the photos.

From a distance at 1.75x, it better not..... no, i can't see them.

Original vga shot here and it's resized, so don't quote me why it looks diff compare to 100% cropped.
http://danator.com/img/hs51/720pvga.jpg

Originally posted by Lawrence_Chiu
I read that HS51 with serial number > 32840 already have the various fixes offered by Sony. But I just bought a HS51 and the serial number doesn't have 5 digits like that.

The serial number is s01-2000844-4
Do I have the fixes?
The Sony esupport website doesn't work anymore (returns an error)
esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

Greetings,

Lawrence, I received my HS51 on Monday and my serial number is similar to yours. Mine has the updates so yours probably does as well. My unit's panel alignment is spot on, and does not exhibit any of the other issues discussed in this thread.

I was able to get a look at an HS51 last week which belongs to another forum member who lives nearby. He has his connected over VGA using an Iscan HD+ from a Direct TV HD Tivo and a Panasonic RP82 with an SDI mod output. He showed me some HD material he recorded on to the Tivo played back over VGA and then over HDMI. The VGA did look cleaner on his setup. The material was American Idol recorded from Fox in 1080i.

As it turns out AI was on last night on Fox in HD 1080i. I have my HS51 connected to my HD cable box via HDMI. I am using a Da-lite HCCV 80x45 screen. Image was quality was pristine. The artifacting which I saw via HDMI on his setup was NOT present on mine. Text on his had a bit of shimmering, text on mine was crisp and solid. Some background images on his were not entirely distinct. On mine the background was fully discernible. Bear in mind that on his setup via VGA these problems were not present.

The reason for my post is that the behavior exhibited by his HS51 via HDMI is not at all consistent with my HS51. Image quality via HDMI is solid. I am not sure if this anything to do with the fact that my unit came from the factory with the updates or not. I am pointing this out for those who may be interested in this projector and have a setup which does not include a HTPC. I can not comment relative to HTPC performance. If you have a DVD player with an HDMI out and a HD source with a digital video out ( DVI or HDMI ) and are interested in the updated HS51 it's performance should be on par with what I have described.

Regards,

the text "shimmering" is misaligned panels I had the same problem. thats what I believe anyway, some might argue though. Ive found a couple of places who are now selling the updated units also. might have to go for # four try on the hs51. :) jeff

reply to post below-- maybe the artifact that hes talking about is not the same as what i saw in my past 3 hs51's with panel alignment problems,but it looked like shimmering and it was over both vga and hdmi on mine. who knows.- jeff

Originally posted by jeffropaige
the text "shimmering" is misaligned panels I had the same problem. thats what I believe anyway, some might argue though. Ive found a couple of places who are now selling the updated units also. might have to go for # four try on the hs51. :) jeff

If the shimmering was caused by mis-aligned panels why would the shimmering not be present when selecting VGA on the same mis-aligned panels?

Originally posted by zeroendless
From a distance at 1.75x, it better not..... no, i can't see them.

Original vga shot here and it's resized, so don't quote me why it looks diff compare to 100% cropped.
http://danator.com/img/hs51/720pvga.jpg

Please post botht the VGA and HDMI full pics!

I will commit the cardinal sin of "not reading the whole thread", and ask a simple question: how well does the HS51 handle ambient light in high contrast/economy mode? I have been trying to get a feel for what its max lumen output looks like (I started a separate thread on it), but I'd be curious as to what owners subjectively think about it. I'm aiming for ~30 - 40ftL peak, and if the Sony can't do it, then I may need to ratchet up my budget a few $K.

Thanks!

Bill

I'm really curious about the projector's performance in ambient light as well (which is also the reason why I am interested in the Chromavue screen).

Where is this other thread that you mentioned?

Originally posted by Ursa
how well does the HS51 handle ambient light in high contrast/economy mode? I have been trying to get a feel for what its max lumen output looks like...aiming for ~30 - 40ftL peak
It is very likely this is not the projector for you. Even at low contrast and high lamp it is unlikely this projector can hit those numbers unless you have a small screen and perhaps a high gain screen. You are basically looking for a light cannon, which is the opposite end of the market this projector is geared.

R.

Greetings,


I'm aiming for ~30 - 40ftL peak, and if the Sony can't do it, then I may need to ratchet up my budget a few $K.


Raul is right. You had better look else where. The HS51 has no trouble throwing plenty of light in my room. I have an 80 X 45 Da-lite High Contrast Cinema Vision 1.1 gain gray screen. My room is 23 X 14.

30 to 40 foot lamberts....what are looking to do work on your tan while you watch a film?? Most movie theaters average around 16 to 20 foot lamberts.


Regards,

How long has it typically been taking you guys to get your projectors back from Laredo?

They received mine Monday morning and I swear I think they've lost it. Juan and crew are trying to retrieve it from shipping, but after nearly three days it's MIA somewhere at Sony, Laredo. I hope this is not an indication of how the entire repair process is going to go. . .assuming they find it!

Lessons learned:
1. Make sure your UPS carrier doesn't pull up the "correct" address in their database. If they do, it will most likely omit the "Suite C" portion of the address and cause a delay.
2. Make sure Juan or someone else gives you some kind of RMA or work order number prior to shipping your projector.
3. Finally. . .and I did do this. . .keep all your UPS paperwork and keep close tabs on where it goes once it arrives.

Update: Juan called today and said that they had found my projector. In spite of being extremely busy, these guys do seem to be providing good service. It did take them over three days to get the projector from the shipping department, though, so be aware that recieving may be a source of delay.

Originally posted by Ursa
I'm aiming for ~30 - 40ftL peak, and if the Sony can't do it, then I may need to ratchet up my budget a few $K.
Thanks!
Bill

Of course the HS51 can do 30 to 40 ftL, it just depends on the screen size and gain!

brightness in ftL = lumens * screen gain / screen area.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Of course the HS51 can do 30 to 40 ftL, it just depends on the screen size and gain!

brightness in ftL = lumens * screen gain / screen area.

Yeah, I know the equations - I just forgot to mention the screen. It's an 88" (77" wide) High Power. The measurements for light output I've seen on this projector in eco/HC mode go from 400 down to 160, which does not give me any confidence in either a) quality control, or b) that the guys who ought to know do not know how to properly calibrate/measure this thing.

Right now, I'm getting about 30ftL on my screen, and I would love to extend the low end without losing the high. Something about west-facing windows with cheap blinds the wife won't let me replace mean that if I'm going to use the projector in the daytime, it has to be bright. At night, it's a little harsh in the dark, but bias lighting helps that out tremendously. So, if the Sony can get closer to Bill Cushman's readings, then I'm good for the life of the lamp. However, if Dan Francis is correct, then I'm back to looking at Optoma's and the new DLPs.

Later,
Bill

PS: The other thread is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=528225

Sony Laredo had my projector for 3.5 weeks (incl. weekends)!
They received it via overnight FedEx on 3/11, and it arrived via overnight UPS on 4/6.

I generated a work order online before I sent it, talked to Juan before I sent it, and sent it to "Suite C" in Laredo.

Even though Sony Laredo received it on 3/11, it wasn't until 3/25 that I received an automated email from Sony saying they were working on it.

...even allowing it to sit around until 3/25, it still took over a week to apply the fix.

I'm guessing they are pretty busy!

Originally posted by harristl
How long has it typically been taking you guys to get your projectors back from Laredo?

They received mine Monday morning and I swear I think they've lost it. Juan and crew are trying to retrieve it from shipping, but after nearly three days it's MIA somewhere at Sony, Laredo. I hope this is not an indication of how the entire repair process is going to go. . .assuming they find it!

Lessons learned:
1. Make sure your UPS carrier doesn't pull up the "correct" address in their database. If they do, it will most likely omit the "Suite C" portion of the address and cause a delay.
2. Make sure Juan or someone else gives you some kind of RMA or work order number prior to shipping your projector.
3. Finally. . .and I did do this. . .keep all your UPS paperwork and keep close tabs on where it goes once it arrives.

Hi,
I got my HS51 back from Sony and I was hoping someone could shed some light on the work order "Description of Parts or Service".

Here you go:
"Constant Weak/Excess Pictr"

Anyone else get this?

So if I am doing the math right:

lumens=30 ftL*23 ft^2*/ 2.2 gain=313 lumens

(I used 2.2 as a guess on what gain you are getting from the hipower not knowing your mounting situation)

I think the hs51 puts out about 350 lumens in high contrast mode so it would probably work for your situation (unless your true gain is much less such as ceiling mount).

However, since you are concerned about ambient light conditions I don't think output in high contrast mode should be the concern as any ambient light kills the cr anyways. I'm pretty sure the hs51 will have a higher light output mode that will meet your needs.

Originally posted by JJay
I think the hs51 puts out about 350 lumens in high contrast mode so it would probably work for your situation (unless your true gain is much less such as ceiling mount).

Or if the true light output of the HS-51 is much lower... This is the gist of my chief question about the HS51 - How much light can it actually put out? If it's 350, then it is only a bit dimmer than my Epson 500 on cinema black. If it is down in the 200s, then it won't work.

Also, bear in mind the decay function. Since the bulb loses light output over its lifetime, I would rather aim high when a bulb is new. This way, I know that it will still work later without needing to accelerate its demise by running in high. Though to be honest, my problem with high lamp output has traditionally been noise related - something I would not think to be relevant for the HS51.

BTW, the last time I measured it, I was getting ~2.0 off the screen with a shelf mount, but that was two projectors ago (don't ask; it's part of why I'm looking).

However, since you are concerned about ambient light conditions I don't think output in high contrast mode should be the concern as any ambient light kills the cr anyways. I'm pretty sure the hs51 will have a higher light output mode that will meet your needs.

Ambient light is not an issue at night when we are watching stuff a bit more critically. Daytime viewing is mostly for me to watch the stuff the wife doesn't like (e.g., Aussie Rules Football), and I'm not sure I'd want to switch modes all the time (I've fought WAF to a draw, but any new complexities/complications elicit a new round of "Why can't it work like a normal TV?").

Later,
Bill

Just plugged in my HS51 I got back from Laredo and all seems ok. Haven't done any in depth viewing yet.

I sent Laredo a new projector and here's the updated info:
ROM: 1.02 / 11.01
SC ROM: 1.02
IP ROM: 1.02
Usage went from 0 hours to 1 hour.

Originally posted by MoG
Just plugged in my HS51 I got back from Laredo and all seems ok. Haven't done any in depth viewing yet.

I sent Laredo a new projector and here's the updated info:
ROM: 1.02 / 11.01
SC ROM: 1.02
IP ROM: 1.02
Usage went from 0 hours to 1 hour.

Try checking the panel alignment. Specifically, try looking at the text on the Sony Menu for the HS51. See if you can spot a faint outline around the black text. Sometimes you can see a faint green outline on the right side of the text, or a faint blue/red outline on the left side of the text.

Please check back, thanks...

Originally posted by Bytehoven
The HS-51 did have HDMI 720p 1:1 pixel mapping before the 720p update. The problem we all know, it came with a black border formatting the image all the way around.

I am looking forward to learning more about the HDMI 720p performance on the post-update HS-51.

But I think we're on the same page as far as not knowing what was or was not possible with regard to the removale of the black border.

I believe there might not be 1:1 mapping on HDMI before the software update:

Here's a Li On post from 12/08/04:

Li On HS51 REVIEW (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479915)

And of course, the 1:1 mapping and boarder blanking problem under 720p HDMI. The blanking is around 2.5% on all 4 sides. And looking the 1 pixel width black/white pattern, it's NOT a real 1:1 mapping IMO. The fine Windows desktop texts are all looking soft with a shadow outline. It looks like there is a low pass filter being applied. Actual DVD playback seems fine but I just don't feel right with this. This is NOT my ideal 1:1 mapping for sure!


Although Li On's is an HS50 (euro model), it would be interesting to see whether anyone can confirm 1:1 mapping on HDMI before the recent update?

Zero, can you confirm 1:1 mapping on HDMI before the update? Let us know...

Ursa:

The Sony is a great projector in many ways, but I don't think it's for you. It is definitely dimmer than your Epson on Cinema black. And even putting it high lamp setting with iris off makes only a very small increase in brightness - a much smaller difference than most projectors.

You might want to consider the new BenQ/Toshiba (if you can live without lens shift) it's much brighter. I haven't seen the Sharp, but it seems that the Sharp 2000 is brighter still.

Pip

Originally posted by MoG
Just plugged in my HS51 I got back from Laredo and all seems ok. Haven't done any in depth viewing yet.

I sent Laredo a new projector and here's the updated info:
ROM:01.02 / 11.01
SC ROM: 1.02
IP ROM: 1.02
Usage went from 0 hours to 1 hour.

Greetings,

I received my new unit on Monday. It has the updates and includes the following:

ROM: 01.02/11.02
SC ROM: 01.02
IP ROM: 01.02

Panel alignment is spot on.


Regards,

From Widescreen Review
"HDTV (720p and 1080i) video had reasonable overscan of 3 to 4 percent. RGBHV 720p and DVI 720p signals appeared to be directly pixel-mapped with the sides blanked to give the same appearance as overscan.
"

I believe that there are 2 other threads which were started to take the HDMI 1:1 vs VGA debate out of this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=527019
and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525511
I think any interested in those issues would be better served in those threads.

interesting...so now I'm left wondering what is the difference between 11.01 and 11.02, why 11.01 was applied to mine, ...and what the 11.0x number even means! (ie-is it a seperate ROM from the 1.02 or a revision of the 1.02 or...)

Originally posted by placidman
Greetings,

I received my new unit on Monday. It has the updates and includes the following:

ROM: 01.02/11.02
SC ROM: 01.02
IP ROM: 01.02

Panel alignment is spot on.


Regards,

Hello,

Does anyone know where I can see the VPL-HS51 demo'd in the San Francisco Bay Area?

Thanks,

David

Originally posted by MoG
interesting...so now I'm left wondering what is the difference between 11.01 and 11.02, why 11.01 was applied to mine, ...and what the 11.0x number even means! (ie-is it a seperate ROM from the 1.02 or a revision of the 1.02 or...)

Greetings,

MoG, perhaps it pertains to the build model. Since yours was a first run unit which had to be modified and mine is a second run unit that came off the line with the modifications. My unit has a serial number series which begins 2000xxx. I know the earlier runs were different.

If all is well with your unit I wouldn't put too much stock in this as it probably does not matter.


Regards,

HS51 demo'd in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Magnolia Hi Fi San Ramon and Emeryville both have a fairly nice demo. Just make sure they have it set for low lamp/auto iris. Fry's electronics in Concord has one in their demo theater. Not sure how easy it is to get help there, though.

Originally posted by Ursa
Or if the true light output of the HS-51 is much lower... This is the gist of my chief question about the HS51 - How much light can it actually put out? If it's 350, then it is only a bit dimmer than my Epson 500 on cinema black. If it is down in the 200s, then it won't work.

Also, bear in mind the decay function. Since the bulb loses light output over its lifetime, I would rather aim high when a bulb is new. This way, I know that it will still work later without needing to accelerate its demise by running in high. Though to be honest, my problem with high lamp output has traditionally been noise related - something I would not think to be relevant for the HS51.

BTW, the last time I measured it, I was getting ~2.0 off the screen with a shelf mount, but that was two projectors ago (don't ask; it's part of why I'm looking).



Ambient light is not an issue at night when we are watching stuff a bit more critically. Daytime viewing is mostly for me to watch the stuff the wife doesn't like (e.g., Aussie Rules Football), and I'm not sure I'd want to switch modes all the time (I've fought WAF to a draw, but any new complexities/complications elicit a new round of "Why can't it work like a normal TV?").

Later,
Bill

Bill,
I have had both PJs in my room at the same time. I get 350-360 Lumens from my Sony whereas I got about 370 Lumens from thte Epson in Cinema Black mode. This is for IRE field measurements. The noticeable difference is when the Sony gets a dark scene and the iris shuts down it gets noticeably dimmer but also presents much better CR. In its high lamp modes, the Epson can be noticeably brighter. The Sony just cannot ramp it up as well as the Epson. I never use these modes though and both PJs are very comparable in "normal" veiwing for me.

Hi, hopefully someone here can give me some advice, this seems like the right place.

I got my HS51 wednesday and yesterday when looking at a test screen, I noticed three green dots in the middle-left of the screen. They go away when I take the image out of focus and are sharply visible when it is in focus. Are these stuck pixels and if so, is that something Sony will fix, or should I live with it considering everything else seems to be working okay? If there is just as much chance that I send it off and get another one back with other stuck pixels, then I think I would pass.

I got my HS51 wednesday and yesterday when looking at a test screen, I noticed three green dots in the middle-left of the screen. They go away when I take the image out of focus and are sharply visible when it is in focus. Are these stuck pixels and if so, is that something Sony will fix, or should I live with it considering everything else seems to be working okay? If there is just as much chance that I send it off and get another one back with other stuck pixels, then I think I would pass.

Sounds like it, a single dot pixel? I have not heard much of hot pixel on hs51, it's quite rare with this unit.

For anyone in the Indianapolis area, check out Frys new store when you get a chance. I was there last night. They have an HS51 on displayand the ne Sony Black Screen. Very cool. I asked about the best price they could give me. MSRP. So, don't go hoping for a deal.

reaper

hello I am a boy of barcelona/españa ,
today have given my hs/50.
to me is some form to know by I number of series if it already has the update thanks and pardon by small my ingles
:)

Originally posted by santiago
hello I am a boy of barcelona/españa ,
today have given my hs/50.
to me is some form to know by I number of series if it already has the update thanks and pardon by small my ingles
:)

Not sure if I understand what you are trying to communicate here. But I think you want to know if your new HS50 already has the update or not. You can click here and check:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl_id=3829&news_id=67

Or here is Espanol:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?template=ES&session_id=4d0dc5b8de6e5b728f5e20588bfac451&mdl_id=3829&news_id=67&script_id=1201

reaper

Dang this is exactly what I need as well.

Anyone know of any such setup in the LA area?

Originally posted by reaper
For anyone in the Indianapolis area, check out Frys new store when you get a chance. I was there last night. They have an HS51 on displayand the ne Sony Black Screen. Very cool. I asked about the best price they could give me. MSRP. So, don't go hoping for a deal.

reaper

What is the default brightness setting for the Sony in Cinema mode?

50?

Originally posted by SOWK
What is the default brightness setting for the Sony in Cinema mode?

50?

Greetings,

SOWK, yes the default setting is 50.


Regards,

Originally posted by santiago
hello I am a boy of barcelona/españa ,
today have given my hs/50.
to me is some form to know by I number of series if it already has the update thanks and pardon by small my ingles
:)

Santiago,
Congratulations on your new HS50!!! If you like please PM me in Spanish for any questions you may have related to the HS50. I will be more than happy to help you. Saludos!

I just got my HDTV receiver connected to my HS51 via component and found that when running in 720p I get the black border around the entire image, but not in 480p or 1080i. Up until now I have only used HTPC VGA and component from PS2 (480p) so this is the first time I have seen the black border. I have been following this thread for a while and knew this was an issue for HDMI but not component. Am I correct in assuming this is the same issue as with 720p over HDMI and that it would be fixed if I sent it to Laredo for the updated firmware?

Thanks,
Derek

Originally posted by extreme0016
I just got my HDTV receiver connected to my HS51 via component and found that when running in 720p I get the black border around the entire image, but not in 480p or 1080i. Up until now I have only used HTPC VGA and component from PS2 (480p) so this is the first time I have seen the black border. I have been following this thread for a while and knew this was an issue for HDMI but not component. Am I correct in assuming this is the same issue as with 720p over HDMI and that it would be fixed if I sent it to Laredo for the updated firmware?

Thanks,
Derek

YES

Why sony instead of just removing the balnking bar in 720p added overscan.

I dont know the internals of course but in my opinion should it be easier to just remove the "blanking code" that genereates a black border than 1. remove blanking border - 2. Add overscan / scaling.

Even Sony must know that the PJ is mostly used for DVD movie watching or HDTV broadcasts.
If TV however should be used AND there are artefacts in the overscan area (is there really nowadays?) then you normally feed it 480/576p/i - not 720p since that is HD - and HD do not suffer from screen edge artefacts as far as i know.

Anyway - right now it seems like the only solution is to run VGA to get 1:1.
I still have my hopes up that Sony will take a second look at HDMI 1:1 mapping without blanking (and overscan of course since then it is not 1:! any more). Maybe a menu somewhat like the D-ILA where you can choose 1:1, zoom, aspect and one more choice i dont remember.
THAT would end ALL the current discussions about the blankings / overscan to be or not to be and everybody would be happy and could go on enjoying this otherwise great machine.

Then the choice between VGA HDMI is totally free - choose the one you like the best - personally i would go for HDMI since most stand alone high end DVD players support this (for me it would be the Denon DVD-3910 replacing my current Philips DVD963SA - thinking of adding the unofficial RGB-sync green 1080i firmware and see if it works with the HS-50 - anyone tried?).
HTPC is to much fuzz and you also need a good SACD/DVD-A/CD spinner anyway. I want it good AND simple :)

The other way as i understand it is to buy a scaler/deinterlacer - HDMI -> VGA and in that way leave sonys processing out of it and also benefit from the better scaler/deinterlacing posibilities in the scaler and/or DVD-player.

Still hoping to hear more about the latter - is it worth the extra grand (roughlt if you want a good scaler)?

Regards
Boogieman

Hi all.

All the HS51 threads seem to have gone inactive? What's up?

Nas

Maybe after 4000+ posts, there is nothing left to say :D

I was planning to post my experience with sending my HS-51 for the 720P fix, but haven't had time since I got it back last Thursday. I thought it might help others who are trying to decide if it's worth it. I will try to post the details this weekend.

Help !!!

Just setup my new Sony HS51 projector with 106" Carada Brilliant white and the image looks great. This is my first FP, so pardon my dumb question I'm about to ask...

I would like some help with the setup of my PJ. I am using the component output from my 2yr old Sony DVD player to connect to the HS51. The pj is table mounted about 12 ft from the screen. Since I bought a 1.78 screen , I used Finding Nemo DVD with the same format to adjusted the zoom to get the full screen image. Once I did that it seems like the HS51 menu is displayed on the wall instead of the screen. Also the DVD menu is projected outside the screen. I have set the Wide mode to Normal as other settings were streching or compressing the image.

I'm not sure if my DVD player is not set right. Let me know what am I doing wrong.

Thanks for your help...I'm ancious to get this resolved and enjoy my new FP. This is so much better value than a RP.

simple trick is change the pj background to "blue", turn off the source and use the blue screen projected on the screen to do the adjustment.

Thanks Zeroendless for your response.

When I use the blue screen to do the adjustment and try to play the DVD, the projected image doesnot cover the whole screen, the image is smaller than the screen size when I use the Normal mode of viewing. If I change the Wide Mode setting to Full, it covers the screen but the movie seems streched.

What's the right Wide mode to use??

I dont have any 480p/480i sources, they retired couple years ago but i don't recall any issues mentioned with 480i/p. But i know you able to stretch these format if the source is set to 4:3. that's probably ya problem here. Finding Nemo has two discs, one is 4:3 and the other is 16:9. Put on the 16:9. what's ya dvd player by the way.

Just want to make sure we cover the 101 here,

Put on 1.78(16:9) ratio DVD, set dvd player format to 16:9. You should get a full screen if source is 480 or 1080i. If 720p, you'll get masking about 2" borders. If material format is anything below 1.78 like 2.35 or 1.85, you'll see top and bottom black bars...and that's normal.

Greetings,


What's the right Wide mode to use??

For anamorphic DVD use " Full ". Ensure that your DVD player is set to output 16:9 not 4:3 letterbox.

I am not all together sure why you want to use " normal " for viewing DVD on a 16:9 screen with a projector that has WXGA ( widescreen ) native panels. If you have your player/projector set up as explained it should display properly.


Regards,

I finally figured it out last night that my DVD player wasn't setup correctly to output 16:9. Now I am using Widemode as "FULL" and it cover the whole screen.

Thanks Everyone!!

Originally posted by Nasmo_Q
All the HS51 threads seem to have gone inactive? What's up?
There is some lively debate about the auto iris going on in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529483) over in the >$3500 forum.

I have noticed an effect on my HS-51 and wonder if others see it. I sit about 1.5 screen widths back. If I set perfect focus I can definitely see the screen door from that distance. So I do a slight defocus and can no longer see it on a static image.

However, I still sometimes see screen door on moving images. The effect is really very strange. I will be watching the movie, then all of a sudden the screen door jumps out at me. It seems to happen mostly with moving objects or pans that have a bright uniform color, especially animation. I noticed it several times watching The Incredibles. Adding more defocus seems to help, but I wonder what causes this. Is it some trick of the eye caused by the motion? Is it something in the PJs scaling or processing that brings out the screen door?

Absolutely, my biggest complaint. Move back to 2xwidth though and I will not see it. Its more annoying than static sde at times.

Brian

New to Front projection. I read every thread with regard to the hs51. I still can't find a reference to my problem/observations:

1. Imagine watching any scene where the main subject is moving and the camera is panning left to right. Objects in the background roll or wave as the scene moves. i.e. The straight lines on a building, the windows or bricks, do not pan in a straight line. They roll, like waves on the ocean. I'm watching at 15 feet with a 120 diag. screen.

2. Many directors are now using fade to black between scenes. i.e. The Grudge. At least 20 scenes end in a fade to black. When this happens, just before the next scene lights up the screen the, the image is terrible, ghosting, distortion, etc. ???? However, the jet black background used, for example, with movie credits, does not have this issue.

Are these observations discussed or known when analyzing LCD or any front projection?

Hi ffaallccoo! (from Neverending Story?)
1. Check your screen. I had the same issue with my first screen (DaLite High Contrast Matte White). I changed it to High Power and it went away. My first thought was it was a PJ problem too - I called their tech service, was ready to return the PJ, etc. until I tried actually moving the screen or the PJ with a static image on it and saw the ripplig effect. Then I noticed waves and ripples on the screen surface. I was pretty red-faced!

Don't have a clue about #2!

Gordon

Just in case you have not ruled out your source:

1. This sounds very much like the deinterlacing artifact known as line twitter. Your DVD player may be the culprit here. You'll find the smallest defect in the video feed is very noticeable at this screen dimension. You will never get true HD resolution from a 480 source but some transfers are better than others and all deinterlacing and scaling solutions have weaknesses. I have seen this artifact when watching DVD material on the HS-51, but never with true HD content.

2. My guess would be the well known MB (macroblocking) issue prevalent with the Faroudja/Genesis chipset. I have seen this on the -51, but not to the extent that it is said to manifest itself with other display devices.

Might want to provide some details on your set up, eg. video sources, what and how you are feeding the projector, cables used, etc.

Go to the DVD Player forum for all you ever wanted to know about available technology. Happy hunting

Well, Juan tells me that they have applied all the fixes to my projector, but were not able to fix the lines in the image. He's also telling me that many of the projectors they are seeing have the same lines. I can't imagine that most of you have them. . .because these make most of the nit picky things we normally discuss seem pretty insignificant (IMHO, of course). You can have a look at my earlier posts to see a picture.

Juan is supposedly checking with his supervisor to determine what, if anything, they will be able to do for me. Overall, I am extremely frustrated with the projector and with the somewhat cavalier attitude of the people in Laredo. I know they are busy, but they seem to forget that people are spending quite a bit of money on these units and should expect good service.

Bottom line, I would have never purchased this projector had I expected this problem. If I get the same projector back with the same lines, I will be very unhappy with it overall. . .in fact, those lines are the only thing I see when I look at the screen!

I'll keep you posted, but if someone asked me my opinion today, I'd say absolutely don't buy an HS51 until they get their problems straightened out.

Good frickin' luck with Laredo. I sent my HS10 to them five times before the problem I was having was really addressed by a Sony engineer in California. I'm still working out kinks with engineering, but I'm confident that a resolution of some sort is forthcoming.

Originally posted by Schwa
Good frickin' luck with Laredo. I sent my HS10 to them five times before the problem I was having was really addressed by a Sony engineer in California. I'm still working out kinks with engineering, but I'm confident that a resolution of some sort is forthcoming.

Panel alignment issues?

No, not panel alignment issues. I sent it in for the HS10 "lamp bug" and it came back with new problems. First it was noise though the component input (which engineering fixed), but now it's a severe black crush problem. Engineering's still working that out.

Funny you should ask about panel alignment though...the alignment on this projector is about the best I've ever seen on an LCD projector!

Originally posted by harristl
Well, Juan tells me that they have applied all the fixes to my projector, but were not able to fix the lines in the image. He's also telling me that many of the projectors they are seeing have the same lines. I can't imagine that most of you have them. . .because these make most of the nit picky things we normally discuss seem pretty insignificant (IMHO, of course). You can have a look at my earlier posts to see a picture.
I also see something like that with 2.35 movies although it may not be as extreme as yours. It is sort of like the ringing that you see on the Sharpness test patterns. It must be caused by the transition from the black border to the image. It doesn't bother me that much from 1.5 screen widths back, but I can see it if I look for it. The fact that I defocus to reduce the screen door may help as well. I haven't checked to see if any of the Factory meny adjustments will affect it.

I used the online form posted by Bytehoven to submit my HS-51 for the 720P firmware fix. In addition, I included note requesting that they check an image problem. One side of my image had a vertical strip with a red tint about 20 pixels wide. It was most red at the edge and faded toward the center. It did not bother me that much since I just zoomed in a little and shifted the image to the side until it was in the black border of the screen. My panel alignment was very good so I was reluctant to send it in, but I figured when I upgrade and want to sell the HS-51 this might make it hard to get a good price. So I decided to take the risk while it was still under warranty and Sony was offering to do the fixes for free.

For others who are contemplating doing this, here is my experience. Mine may have taken longer because of the red tint problem. I suspect they had to order replacement parts, possibly the optical block.

March 12 - dropped off at UPS store before going on vacation. Sent by UPS ground to San Diego, which typically takes 2-3 days from where I live. UPS pickup was March 14, so I expected it would arrive in San Diego March 16 or 17.

March 21 - received an Email indicating it had been received in San Diego. Email included web address http://www.sony.com/repair where I could enter my work order number and check status.

March 25 - Decided to check the status, which was listed as "With a technician" and an indication that the average time is 10 days. Checked daily until April 4 but it did not change.

April 4 - Status changed to "being repaired" with an indication that average time was 5 days. Same on April 5.

April 6 - Morning - status changed to "repair complete" indicating it would ship within 1 business day.

April 6 - late afternoon - status changed to "shipped" with a UPS tracking number. Check on UPS web site indicated Next Day Air shipping from Loredo TX.

April 7 - The PJ arrived late afternoon. It was obvious from the detailed tracking when it was sent out for delivery, but for some reason the expected delivery date was listed as April 11.

I never received an Email about the return shipping, so make sure you check the status daily so you will get a tracking number and know when to expect it.

The Invoice in the box said

CONSTANT PICTURE UNSTABLE
MECHANICAL ADJUSTMENT

and indicated no charge for the repair.

The Good

The red tint on the side is fixed and a uniform white field looks pretty good.

No more black borders on 720P input to HDMI or Component. But as others have noted, there is about 2.5% overscan so definitely not 1 to 1 pixel mapping. If there is any improvement in image quality at 720P I don't notice it.

Pixel alignment is about the same, maybe slightly worse than before, but acceptable.

The Bad

I kept all my packing materials when I received the projector. Before sending it to Sony, I had inserted the foam sheet under the zoom ring to hold the lens in place. This is how it was packed when I received it. I also double boxed it, surrounding the Sony box with bubble wrap. When it came back there was no foam sheet around the zoom ring and it was only in the Sony box. The PJ was all wrapped up in stretch wrap, but I don't know if this would prevent the lens assembly from banging around.

The lens shift is definitely rougher than before. It always had a lot of play in it, but now it harder to adjust. I have the PJ inverted and ceiling mounted. When I move the lens shift down, nothing happens for several turns then it suddenly drops a large amount and shifts to the side. When moving it back up it seems to jump instead of moving smoothly. Not a big deal, I was able to eventually adjust it to my satisfaction and this is not something I will do often. But still, it annoys me to think that it might have been prevented if they had just repacked it properly. Once the warranty has expired I may open it up to see if I can fix this.

So would I do it again? Probably not for just the 720P fix since I don't have any source which has to be 720P. I always thought 1080I looked just fine, and still cannot see any significant difference using 720P or 1080I from my upscaling DVD player. But since it fixed the red tint which might be an issue when I go to sell it, it was worth it.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I also see something like that with 2.35 movies although it may not be as extreme as yours. It is sort of like the ringing that you see on the Sharpness test patterns. It must be caused by the transition from the black border to the image. It doesn't bother me that much from 1.5 screen widths back, but I can see it if I look for it. The fact that I defocus to reduce the screen door may help as well. I haven't checked to see if any of the Factory meny adjustments will affect it.
I did some more investigation on the lines at the edge of 2.35 movies and found something interesting. How visible these lines are seems to be dependent on the input and resolution.

I am using a Sony upscaling DVD player to HDMI at 720P. I can see these lines, but they are barely noticable from 1.5 screen widths and don't bother me while watching a movie. I tried switching the resolution to 480i and 480p, and the lines became much more obvious and would bother me. It looks more like the images posted by harristl. At 1080i they are about the same as 720P, may slightly more obvious but tolerable.

I then tried a JVC D-VHS deck connected to HDMI. With this I could not see the lines, so I thought maybe it was coming from the DVD player.

Next I tried my HTPC connected to Input A. I could see the lines, but they were less visible than any of the DVD player settings.

I then hooked my old Sony DVD player to component using 480i, and the lines were very obvious.

Not really a resolution, but it may explain why some people see these and some don't. For those who are bothered by these lines, an upscaling DVD player or external scaler may be a solution.

jschefdog,

Great information and, frankly, quite a relief. I've been working on this room for months and was afraid that the centerpiece was going to be a projector that wouldn't perform up to snuff! I'll be off to purchase an HDMI equipped DVD player and cable this week before my projector comes back.

Based on what you are seeing, I doubt that I will even pursue the replacement option through Sony. If they replace mine, I'm liable to get one that is just as bad or has some other problem that mine doesn't!

Thanks again for taking the time to check.

Somewhat off topic, but I was playing Splinter Cell - CT on my X-box with the Sony HS51, and the Picture Quality was flippin amazing from this unit, once I calibrated the Grey Scale with HDMI. (not quite as god as VGA, but darn close :) lol. But I was inthrald with the game this big, the blacks, grey and everything was amazing, My setting are Same as Cinema but with contrast at 90, and brightness at 73. Middle color setting.

Again WOW! is all I have to say!

-SOWK

Originally posted by SOWK
Somewhat off topic, but I was playing Splinter Cell - CT on my X-box with the Sony HS51, and the Picture Quality was flippin amazing from this unit, once I calibrated the Grey Scale with HDMI. (not quite as god as VGA, but darn close :) lol. But I was inthrald with the game this big, the blacks, grey and everything was amazing, My setting are Same as Cinema but with contrast at 90, and brightness at 73. Middle color setting.

Again WOW! is all I have to say!

-SOWK


XBOX via HDMI? :confused:

Two questions:

first-

SOWK, how do you get your Xbox to output HDMI? I have only seen Component cables available.

Second-

Everyone,

I think I have heard on this forum that the 720p Black bar issue does not occur on a 1080i source. Is this true?

I was going to send in my unit for the update, but after reading whats been going on and how long it takes, I'm not sure. I have the same lines around the image that Harristl has (just as bad), but I am looking to go with an upconverting DVD player such as a Denon 2910.

Can I use 1080i out from this player and get rid of the black bars and the lines?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Dave

Originally posted by Rieper
XBOX via HDMI? :confused:


Oh yeah Sorry!

I have a VGA to DVI transcoder too!

I have the VGA adaptor for the Xbox, going to the VGA to DVI, then DVI to HDMI Cord!

-SOWK

P.S. If your wondering why I would hook it up this way, is because I use my Bravo D2 hooked up to the VGA input!

Originally posted by DaveHe
Two questions:

Second-

Everyone,

I think I have heard on this forum that the 720p Black bar issue does not occur on a 1080i source. Is this true?

I was going to send in my unit for the update, but after reading whats been going on and how long it takes, I'm not sure. I have the same lines around the image that Harristl has (just as bad), but I am looking to go with an upconverting DVD player such as a Denon 2910.

Can I use 1080i out from this player and get rid of the black bars and the lines?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Dave


Dave, yes get the Denon 2910, and at 1080I you will not have the blanking issue, and should not have the line problem eather! But I would personally reccomment the Bravo D2 DVD player if you can find it!

Mine is excelent, and allows for Super blacks to be displayed, THX Advanced Test from the increbables DVD is perfect on the BRAVO D2

Originally posted by SOWK
Somewhat off topic, but I was playing Splinter Cell - CT on my X-box with the Sony HS51, and the Picture Quality was flippin amazing from this unit, once I calibrated the Grey Scale with HDMI.
-SOWK

SOWK, I also would like to calibrate my Grey Scale. Is there any way to do this without having access to colorfacts? I can output HDMI from my DVD player, but right now I only have AVIA with the 3 color filter strips that are included. What else would I need to calibrate the Grey Scale?

Thanks,
Friar

Originally posted by DaveHe
Two questions:

first-

SOWK, how do you get your Xbox to output HDMI? I have only seen Component cables available.

Second-

Everyone,

I think I have heard on this forum that the 720p Black bar issue does not occur on a 1080i source. Is this true?

I was going to send in my unit for the update, but after reading whats been going on and how long it takes, I'm not sure. I have the same lines around the image that Harristl has (just as bad), but I am looking to go with an upconverting DVD player such as a Denon 2910.

Can I use 1080i out from this player and get rid of the black bars and the lines?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Dave

Hi Dave.

I use this exact combination; 2910 with the HS-51, using HDMI between the two. When the 2910 outputs 720p, you effectively get a smaller picture as the blanking appears around the image. You don't get the blanking when the 2910 outputs 1080i.

I have not yet sent in my projector for the 720p fix. I originally thought the picture was better when sent 720p from the Denon to the Sony so was quite anxious to get the fix. After having switched to outputting 1080i from the Denon to the Sony for a couple weeks now, I'm not so sure the picture is really any better when sending out 720p from the Denon. I will eventually get the fix but as Sony has stated we have till the end of the year to get the fix, I've been waiting just in case anything else comes up that requires it to be sent in.

I don't know much about the Bravo that SOWK mentioned but, in my opinion, the 2910 is a tremendously capable player for both video and audio.

Nas

Originally posted by SOWK
Dave, yes get the Denon 2910, and at 1080I you will not have the blanking issue, and should not have the line problem eather! But I would personally reccomment the Bravo D2 DVD player if you can find it!

Mine is excelent, and allows for Super blacks to be displayed, THX Advanced Test from the increbables DVD is perfect on the BRAVO D2

Bravo D2 is old news. The new IT player is the OPPO DV971H. Check out the review here: OPPO REVIEW (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=122)

OPPO is currently the #2 player, right behind the Denon 5910 which is $3300 more expensive :eek:

Hell, I traded in my 3910 for it. I love it!

Originally posted by DaveHe
I think I have heard on this forum that the 720p Black bar issue does not occur on a 1080i source. Is this true?

I was going to send in my unit for the update, but after reading whats been going on and how long it takes, I'm not sure. I have the same lines around the image that Harristl has (just as bad), but I am looking to go with an upconverting DVD player such as a Denon 2910.

Can I use 1080i out from this player and get rid of the black bars and the lines?
You remember correctly, 1080i input to both Component and HDMI does NOT have the blanking (black borders), it was only 720p sources. If your HS-51 behaves like mine, using 1080i from an upscaling player will make the lines barely visible from normal viewing distances. I can still see them if I look for them, but they don't bother me at 1.5 screen widths back.

Originally posted by Rieper
Bravo D2 is old news. The new IT player is the OPPO DV971H. Check out the review here: OPPO REVIEW (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=122)

OPPO is currently the #2 player, right behind the Denon 5910 which is $3300 more expensive :eek:

Hell, I traded in my 3910 for it. I love it!

Really impressice player especiall for you guys in the US.
A pity it didnt qualify on the 2-2 cadence otherwise it would be a direct buy for me in Europe (allmost all PAL movies are deinterlaced using this flag and thus gets jaggies and moire problems if the player fails to recognize it).
Allthough I read that their next player will include this flag - so I will just have to wait and cross my fingers that THAT player is as good as this one on the other parts. I still look at A LOT of NTSC material so it still is a really good buy - allthough I would peronally love 720p over RGB-HV for the sake of the HS-50, and if someone would like to throw in WMV9 HD too i wouldnt complain ;)
Havent found any player that handles this in a good price category though.
Some players have one options and some has the other but none has the lot. Maybe oppo will come upp with the 100points machine next time beating 5910 of the throne :D

Regards
Boogieman

Thanks for pointing out that DVD player, Boogieman. It looks nice! I can't believe I am finally seeing a DVD player that isn't riddled with problems. The only relatively big problem that I see is that it can't do 480p over component. That's a big let down but at least it's something I can wrap my mind around. It looks like the 2-2 cadence doesn't really affect us much in the states and the recovery time, while borderline, is still acceptable. I can't believe a player that MSRPs for $200 is second only to a $3499 player! Holy moly, that's awesome!

I hope to be getting a new player in July when I finish the room and buy the HS51 (finally). So, this might be the boy for me :)

reaper

reaper

There are still a few little bugs that aren't counted on the benchmark but Oppo is working on them right now. Mainly some chroma filter positions.

Originally posted by reaper
Thanks for pointing out that DVD player, Boogieman. It looks nice! I can't believe I am finally seeing a DVD player that isn't riddled with problems. The only relatively big problem that I see is that it can't do 480p over component. That's a big let down but at least it's something I can wrap my mind around. It looks like the 2-2 cadence doesn't really affect us much in the states and the recovery time, while borderline, is still acceptable. I can't believe a player that MSRPs for $200 is second only to a $3499 player! Holy moly, that's awesome!

I hope to be getting a new player in July when I finish the room and buy the HS51 (finally). So, this might be the boy for me :)

reaper

Think about how you plan to connect the OPPO (if you buy it) to the HS51. It has DVI-out, but no HDMI. I personally have it connected to my Panny plasma via DVI, and I'm still debating how I want to connect it to my HS51. I'm considering getting a DVI-VGA box and connect it to the Input-A.

I would plan to run an hdmi to hdmi cable and then use an dvi->hdmi adpapter in the equipment rack near the dvd player. Is there a problem with that? (Assuming I don't care about all the VGA vs DVI debate?)

What's the deal with the shimmering... is that something to be concerned about?

Also, there's a rumor that a new model is coming out soon? Anything to be excited/concerned about?

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
I would plan to run an hdmi to hdmi cable and then use an dvi->hdmi adpapter in the equipment rack near the dvd player. Is there a problem with that? (Assuming I don't care about all the VGA vs DVI debate?)

What's the deal with the shimmering... is that something to be concerned about?

Also, there's a rumor that a new model is coming out soon? Anything to be excited/concerned about?

reaper

I think someone may wish to PM the details you ask, as this is beginning to get off-topic...

Here's the guy you'd want to PM those questions to:

Gary aka GSB

POST (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5487131#post5487131)

Originally posted by dc_pilgrim
I am planning a room which would need to have the HVAC soffited off (about 4 feet wide, 1 ft lower). The height under the soffit would be around 7 feet, in the non soffitted areas 8 ft (probably a few inches lower for both to accomdate drywall, et. al.). I am debating:

1. matching the 4' wide soffit on all side, or
2. maybe just the Hvac side wall and the back wall (to house the PJ), with a narrower soffit on the side(/front?) wall to accomodate electrical, etc. I am attaching a picture of this alternative layout.

My primary concern is - throw. Would either scenario mean that I couldn't project a 92" Diag (16x9) screen - due to a narrow "channel". Should I soffit the area in front of the screen, or will I need the height (was thinking of mounting the center above the screen, in the soffit). I might also do an 82" screen, as it might be a better size based on the seating positions.

Do you think uneven soffit widths would look ridiculous? The room is side shifted a bit because of an entrance door on the screen wall.

Thanks for any help, sorry if its been asked before (I am new to PJ's) - a lot of the info in this thread is on the 1:1 issue. I am leaning towards this projector, or its successor, if it is available in six months once I get the basement finished.

The room is approx 18x14x8 (or 7).

-Dave

Dave, my room is very simialar to yours, 22x13x7 I also have a hvac sofit going down the long side of the room, I put in another matching sofit on the other side and used some molding to create some indiredt lighting using rope lite on both sides, it looks great. I am using a 92" 16x9 firehawk screen with the sony hs51 pj, the combo is pretty killer in my opinion. let me know if I can be of any more help. good luck.

Originally posted by reaper
I would plan to run an hdmi to hdmi cable and then use an dvi->hdmi adpapter in the equipment rack near the dvd player. Is there a problem with that? (Assuming I don't care about all the VGA vs DVI debate?)
reaper

No problem at all. I am doing exactly that: iScan HD+ > DVI to HDMI converter > (75 feet) HDMI TO HDMI cable > projector.
--------------------------------
Ron Party

Sorry to crash the thread, but does anyone know if you have to buy from an "authorized" dealer to get the warranty?

Originally posted by Kris Deering
reaper

There are still a few little bugs that aren't counted on the benchmark but Oppo is working on them right now. Mainly some chroma filter positions.

But is the player really allmost as good as the denon flagship picturewise.
I mean wouldnt the realta chip do a better job in reality.
I know that the test focuses a lot on some very interesting points but if you do a side by side is the difference really that small?

Of course the sound on the denon would be better (even though the oppo handles 192/24 over the digital out :eek: which is hilaious fun for a player in this price category - really awesome to be able to run upconverted sound digitally for a small buck :D

Soory - will not bother the thread more about this player - just seemes like a good match to the HS-50 if one is there for the picture.

Regards
Boogieman

Originally posted by stanger89
Sorry to crash the thread, but does anyone know if you have to buy from an "authorized" dealer to get the warranty?

You don't have to buy from an authorized dealer.

Originally posted by SOWK
Somewhat off topic, but I was playing Splinter Cell - CT on my X-box with the Sony HS51, and the Picture Quality was flippin amazing from this unit, once I calibrated the Grey Scale with HDMI. (not quite as god as VGA, but darn close :) lol. But I was inthrald with the game this big, the blacks, grey and everything was amazing, My setting are Same as Cinema but with contrast at 90, and brightness at 73. Middle color setting.

Again WOW! is all I have to say!

-SOWK


Hey, I finally got Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory for my PC. I just finished the first level. WOW, great game!

Here are a few shots 1280x768 with Smart Shader 3.0 enabled using a GeForce 6800GT:

http://img218.echo.cx/img218/5013/sc12sd.th.jpg (http://img218.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc12sd.jpg)

http://img218.echo.cx/img218/9779/sc24jw.th.jpg (http://img218.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc24jw.jpg)

I'll be hooking it up via DVI-to-HDMI to my HS51 just to see it on the big screen :D

Great game, thanks again for the heads up!

HEHE.... I went back to reread some of my posts, I was a big meanny head! lol.

Sorry folks!

Originally posted by [Europe]Boogiem
But is the player really allmost as good as the denon flagship picturewise.
I mean wouldnt the realta chip do a better job in reality.
I know that the test focuses a lot on some very interesting points but if you do a side by side is the difference really that small?

Of course the sound on the denon would be better (even though the oppo handles 192/24 over the digital out :eek: which is hilaious fun for a player in this price category - really awesome to be able to run upconverted sound digitally for a small buck :D

Soory - will not bother the thread more about this player - just seemes like a good match to the HS-50 if one is there for the picture.

Regards
Boogieman

No it is not almost as good of a DVD player. Its video processing is quite good, especially for the money. But if you look at the whole enchilada, it isn't close. The Denon is just about a no compromise solution in every area. It is a tweakers dream. There is room for improvement, but it is the pinnacle of DVD players right now.

The Faroudja video processing is what the Oppo has as an advantage. That and a tweaked in core section. But the Faroudja has issues and the rest of the player is average at best. You really can't compare players like this in terms of the whole package. But video wise they are closer then their prices dictate.

Remember I can say the same thing about the Denon 5910 I have in my own system and the Teac Esoteric UX-1 that I have in my office. The UX-1 is $13K. The Denon beats it hands down in video performance, in fact they aren't even close. So think of the endless debates we can do on that.

Hi, it's been a while since I posted concerning an apparent dust blob (visible green blotch) with my brand new HS-51 (which I promptly sent back and received a replacement unit). So, I've been using the Sony for a few months now and am generally very pleased.

However, I noticed something the other day that caught my attention. I never noticed it before, but I can't say it hasn't been there since day one. Anyway, this is probably a common topic so forgive me if this is routine or has already been discussed. I am seeing a type of skewing in the displayed image in terms of its shape. Basically, the image is not "square", meaning that one vertical side (left side) of the image is longer than the other corresponding side (right). So, it looks as if the rectangle is at a slightly rotated angle (counter-clockwise) at the bottom edge, while the top edge is perfectly level.

The unit is ceiling mounted and the image is shifted both horizontally and vertically (as well as zoomed). I have also made adjustments to the keystone setting, etc. The screen size is 92" diagonal and the difference in length of the two sides in question is about 1/4".

Is a slight shape distortion of this type common when the image is being shifted (i.e. not displayed directly from the center of the lens) or is this a sign of some sort of defect? I don't want to overreact to a common scenario, but I don't want to ignore a legitimate problem either.

Thanks.

Originally posted by tholian
... I am seeing a type of skewing in the displayed image in terms of its shape. Basically, the image is not "square", meaning that one vertical side (left side) of the image is longer than the other corresponding side (right). So, it looks as if the rectangle is at a slightly rotated angle (counter-clockwise) at the bottom edge, while the top edge is perfectly level. ...

I have also made adjustments to the keystone setting, etc.

Thanks.
It sure sounds like you have a keystone problem caused by the projector( image ) not perfectly perpendicular to the screen.

This can be corrected with keystone correction, ( videophiles will say you should never use digital keystone correction because it decreases picture quality :) ). The more labour intensive fix is to physically adjust the orientation of the pj and/or the screen.

What is your current keystone setting?

Originally posted by tholian
The unit is ceiling mounted and the image is shifted both horizontally and vertically (as well as zoomed). I have also made adjustments to the keystone setting, etc. The screen size is 92" diagonal and the difference in length of the two sides in question is about 1/4".
I would agree that it sounds like you need to adjust your projector mount. If the image is taller on one side than the other, you need to rotate the front of the PJ toward the shorter side until both sides are the same. It the top is wider than the bottom, rotate down, and vice versa. You should set the keystone adjustment to zero before adjusting the alignment. I find it easier if I make the image slightly smaller than the screen. Once you have a rectangular image, then use the lens shift to center it.

Unless you are mounting the PJ outside of the lens shift limits, there should be no need to use the keystone adjustment on a PJ with both vertical and horizontal lens shift, provided your projector is perpendicular to the screen.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
It sure sounds like you have a keystone problem caused by the projector( image ) not perfectly perpendicular to the screen.

This can be corrected with keystone correction, ( videophiles will say you should never use digital keystone correction because it decreases picture quality :) ). The more labour intensive fix is to physically adjust the orientation of the pj and/or the screen.

What is your current keystone setting?

Currently, it is set to -6. I want to also point out that it "appears" that the top edge and left/right sides are "straight" (forming right angles). It looks as though only the bottom left corner is too low (stretched) compared to the other three corners. This may be an optical illusion and I will be making some measurements tonight to verify whether these 3 sides are indeed straight/level. I did try adjusting the keystone back to 0 as well as other settings (+/-), but nothing looked better than my current setting of -6. Anyway, the apparent "straightness" of the rest of the image is what led me to believe it was either the off-center shifting of the image that was to blame or some other internal issue.

Thanks.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I would agree that it sounds like you need to adjust your projector mount. If the image is taller on one side than the other, you need to rotate the front of the PJ toward the shorter side until both sides are the same. It the top is wider than the bottom, rotate down, and vice versa. You should set the keystone adjustment to zero before adjusting the alignment. I find it easier if I make the image slightly smaller than the screen. Once you have a rectangular image, then use the lens shift to center it.

Unless you are mounting the PJ outside of the lens shift limits, there should be no need to use the keystone adjustment on a PJ with both vertical and horizontal lens shift, provided your projector is perpendicular to the screen.

Thanks. I will try making the adjustments you suggested and see if that clears it up. This was my first mounting, so I perhaps did not achieve a perfect perpendicular alignment. For various reasons (both related to mount and screen placement restrictions) I was unable to avoid using the lens shifting to some degree, but I am definitely not outside the lens shift limits.

Guys,

I was watching OTA football game the other night and the colors looked great until a runner in a yellow shirt came into view. The yellow was fluorescent (glowing) and appeared to jump off the screen! Is there something I can do to tweak the color to get rid of this. All my color settings are currently default, low color temp, low lamp, auto iris.

Originally posted by Nickoff
Guys,

I was watching OTA football game the other night and the colors looked great until a runner in a yellow shirt came into view. The yellow was fluorescent (glowing) and appeared to jump off the screen! Is there something I can do to tweak the color to get rid of this. All my color settings are currently default, low color temp, low lamp, auto iris.

Nickoff, does this happen only on a High Def OTA channel, or does it happen on HD and SD (and/or DVD) viewing? I have noticed it myself on the HS-51, but I seem to only noticie it with an HD broadcast on my projector. If anyone knows how to get rid of it, I'd also love to hear about any options.

Friar

Originally posted by friar
I have noticed it myself on the HS-51, but I seem to only noticie it with an HD broadcast on my projector. If anyone knows how to get rid of it, I'd also love to hear about any options.
A couple of things come to mind. It might be related to the fact that SD and HD color space are different. I'm not an expert on this, but from what I have read if the PJ is not using the same color space as the source, yellows can look off. Since the HS-51 doesn't have a menu option to set this, you might check to see if the source does.

Another possibility is that you need different color settings for SD and HD sources. I have found that the correct hue and saturation settings can vary with the source and input, even between different SD sources. Setting them using a DVD such as Avia may not provide the correct settings for a HD source.

One option might be to use the RCP settings to turn down the yellow. There are 3 user settings and Off, so you can mess around with any of the user settings and not worry about screwing it up, you can always just turn it off.

You should be very careful about calibrating a projection device simply because of the colors on one show on one channel on one system.

Brian

Okay guys, I have a few things to report. I got my Lumagen Scaler in my system up and running. This piece really takes the HS51 to the next level. I am actually selling my IMX lense now because of it. PM me if you are interested in a unbelievable deal on the lense. Anyway, I went through a good bit of phone training with Jim Peterson of Lumagen and we definitely determined that the Sony will not do 1:1 through HDMI at 720. As a matter of fact, using the Lumagen's test patterns, I came to the conclusion that 1080i looks a good bit better and is scaled closer to 1:1 than 720p. This was amazing to me. Jim also told me that the picture should look a good bit better on 1080i because of the additional horizontal information given and since both resolutions were being scaled. Anyway, the Lumagen is a great piece. I do love the Sony but I may be selling mine soon. I have to move the unit for another in my demo room before I get too many hours on the bulb.

Originally posted by awtryau89
I do love the Sony but I may be selling mine soon. I have to move the unit for another in my demo room before I get too many hours on the bulb.

I too am considering selling my HS51. Are you planning to wait for the HS61, or something more expensive?

Originally posted by awtryau89
Okay guys, I have a few things to report. I got my Lumagen Scaler in my system up and running. This piece really takes the HS51 to the next level. I am actually selling my IMX lense now because of it. PM me if you are interested in a unbelievable deal on the lense. Anyway, I went through a good bit of phone training with Jim Peterson of Lumagen and we definitely determined that the Sony will not do 1:1 through HDMI at 720. As a matter of fact, using the Lumagen's test patterns, I came to the conclusion that 1080i looks a good bit better and is scaled closer to 1:1 than 720p. This was amazing to me. Jim also told me that the picture should look a good bit better on 1080i because of the additional horizontal information given and since both resolutions were being scaled. Anyway, the Lumagen is a great piece. I do love the Sony but I may be selling mine soon. I have to move the unit for another in my demo room before I get too many hours on the bulb.

I agree that 1080i is giving a better result than 720p -To my eyes anyway.
I know SOWK recommends 720p through the VGA converter -but still get the blanking running PAL here in Oz. I have elected to go the 1080i route and providing the source material is the best quality , results are outstanding.

The "fluro" yellow only appeared watching OTA HD feed, which was either 1080i or PAL progressive (I know PAL progressive is not HD but in Australia, networks try to pass it off as HD!). On DVD via Denon 2910 (HDMI) upscaling to 1080i, colors look fine.

Just curious, why are you guys planning on selling your 51's?

Originally posted by Kris Deering
reaper

There are still a few little bugs that aren't counted on the benchmark but Oppo is working on them right now. Mainly some chroma filter positions.

Kris Deering

I recently just relized you are a reviewer for one of my favorite Audio/Video
sites. lol

I have some very serious questions for you.

1. I own the Denon 3910 (audio only), Bravo D2 and the Sony HS51. Can you really get as good of a picture from the oppo? How does it compair to the Bravo D2 and the Denon 3910?

2. Can the Oppo output DTS 96 khz?

3. Can the Oppo output 192Khz DVD-A thru digital Coax?

4. I have never tryed the Denon for video. Do you think I can get a better picture from the Denon 3910 then the Bravo, or the Oppo, if I use a long DVI cord 33' long (in the front for audio!), or am I just better off using the bravo with a 4 foot dvi?

Originally posted by awtryau89
Okay guys, I have a few things to report. I got my Lumagen Scaler in my system up and running. This piece really takes the HS51 to the next level. I am actually selling my IMX lense now because of it. PM me if you are interested in a unbelievable deal on the lense. Anyway, I went through a good bit of phone training with Jim Peterson of Lumagen and we definitely determined that the Sony will not do 1:1 through HDMI at 720. As a matter of fact, using the Lumagen's test patterns, I came to the conclusion that 1080i looks a good bit better and is scaled closer to 1:1 than 720p.
When you say "take the HS51 to the next level", do you mean that you see a big improvement connecting it to HDMI? Even though the HS-51 is rescaling the Lumagen output? What sources are you connecting through the Lumagen? I'm not challenging your statements, just curious.

I have never tried an external scaler with the HS-51, but I assumed that to get significant improvement I would have to use an input that did not rescale, such as Input A in Computer mode.

Originally posted by jschefdog
When you say "take the HS51 to the next level", do you mean that you see a big improvement connecting it to HDMI? Even though the HS-51 is rescaling the Lumagen output? What sources are you connecting through the Lumagen? I'm not challenging your statements, just curious.

I have never tried an external scaler with the HS-51, but I assumed that to get significant improvement I would have to use an input that did not rescale, such as Input A in Computer mode.

No problem on the questions. Let me say I am not talking about HD sources. This is mainly for DVD or SD sources. I am using the little Sony 975 DVD player HMDI feeding the Lumagen 480i. Also feeding the Lumagen DVI from a HD set top box. The Lumagen is scaling to 720p or to 1080i. The Lumagen really takes the PJ up not only because of its scaling but also because of its flexibility and the ability to tweak the different sources that feed the PJ.

My first tests were to set everything up correctly. I was amazed at really how bad off center the Sony 51 was in its image. Once I got everything relative and centered I pushed the overscan to its limits and dialed the ratios in correctly. Next the Lumagen allows you to set Contrast and Brightness different for my 2 sources feeding HDMI which helps because of the differences inherently. Next is color. The Lumagen gives you color offsets for each color, Red Green and Blue, so I made some serious corrections to each. I always knew the color decoder was not spot on by the CIE measurements I got from Colorfacts. There are many other things you can do but I won't go into the here.

Now for the image. First of all right of the bat, the Lumagen improves shadow detail and overall detail of the picture. I was suprised that I was getting better black level and contrast. This was measured and not perceived. Colors are now better just because of the tweaking I did. There are less artifacts than any DVD player I have tried.

Now as far as the scaling of the HDMI inputs. I used the on/off pixel line generator in the Lumagen to test 720p and 1080i. The 720p did not draw te lines properly The 1080i actually di a much better job here. Also, using the dot hatch pattern the 720p input doubled the single pixels whereas the 1080i gave me single pixels. I am not sure what this means and I am not through testing (I am trying 720p again now) but it was recommended to me to use 1080i.

Now for your comments about Imput A. The Lumagen would improve this signal as well. It will run everything from an analog output but you would run into HDCP issues.

I hope this helps.

Originally posted by SOWK
Kris Deering

I recently just relized you are a reviewer for one of my favorite Audio/Video
sites. lol

I have some very serious questions for you.

1. I own the Denon 3910 (audio only), Bravo D2 and the Sony HS51. Can you really get as good of a picture from the oppo? How does it compair to the Bravo D2 and the Denon 3910?

2. Can the Oppo output DTS 96 khz?

3. Can the Oppo output 192Khz DVD-A thru digital Coax?

4. I have never tryed the Denon for video. Do you think I can get a better picture from the Denon 3910 then the Bravo, or the Oppo, if I use a long DVI cord 33' long (in the front for audio!), or am I just better off using the bravo with a 4 foot dvi?

1. Yes and no. The Oppo is using a better MPEG decoder then the 3910 but they have some of the enhancements in the Faroudja chip set wrong. I would stick with the 3910. The Bravo doesn't have the video processing of either.

2. Yes, but only digitally. Any DTS player can. It does not have a built in 96/24 decoder though. I think only Teac, Samsung (HD-1000) and the Marantz 9500 have that.

3. No, coax digital is limited to 96/24 because of bandwidth. And this will only work with uncopyrighted material, which is few and far between.

4. Connect the Denon to the HS-51 via HDMI, not DVI. Set the HDMI output to Normal and YCbCr for its output type. Don't use DVI. This should give you the best image of all your choices. And when I say HDMI I mean an HDMI cable out of the HDMI jack to the HDMI jack on the 51. Do not use any type of DVI cable or adapters for this.

Has anoyone tried connecting the Oppo to the HS51 via a 30ft hdmi cable from bluejeanscable and hdmi to dvi converter?

I heard this player is having trouble syncing over long cables. Not sure if this is a cable issue, DVD player issue or HS51 issue...

reaper

Originally posted by awtryau89
No problem on the questions. Let me say I am not talking about HD sources. This is mainly for DVD or SD sources. I am using the little Sony 975 DVD player HMDI feeding the Lumagen 480i...

Now for your comments about Imput A. The Lumagen would improve this signal as well. It will run everything from an analog output but you would run into HDCP issues.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I've never had a scaler or done any research on buying one, but might want to get one someday. So are you saying that if you feed a HDCP signal to the Lumagen, it cannot output that signal via analog VGA/RGB or component? Do all scalers have this limitation? I thought HDCP only protected digital signal paths.

Just need to unlock my link capability! ;)

Originally posted by reaper
Has anoyone tried connecting the Oppo to the HS51 via a 30ft hdmi cable from bluejeanscable and hdmi to dvi converter?

I heard this player is having trouble syncing over long cables. Not sure if this is a cable issue, DVD player issue or HS51 issue...

reaper

Greetings,

Reaper, while I can't match the specific criteria you mention, I have my HS51 connected to my Denon 3910 via HDMI to HDMI. My cable is a Ram Electronics Rev2 23 foot HDMI cable. No sync problems.


Regards,

Originally posted by Kris Deering
...
4. Connect the Denon to the HS-51 via HDMI, not DVI. Set the HDMI output to Normal and YCbCr for its output type. Don't use DVI. This should give you the best image of all your choices. And when I say HDMI I mean an HDMI cable out of the HDMI jack to the HDMI jack on the 51. Do not use any type of DVI cable or adapters for this.

Hi, Kris,

I think I remember you making similar suggestions in the past. If I remember correctly, you referred to getting 10-bit processing when you use HDMI. I thought DVI and HDMI were identical at the digital encoding layer. What extra functionality does the HDMI connection provide that makes it better? I currently have DVI jacks on both signal source and display device, so I was going to buy a DVI->DVI cable, but will likely be transitioning to an HDMI-based projector real soon now, and am also thinking about getting an HDMI-based DVD player, and don't want to keep buying new cables.

Just got the latest issue of "The Perfect Vision". Another very positive review of the HS-51, calling it a break through projector. Yet another review that gives the internal scaling high marks, contradicting the PJ Central assertion that an external scaler is a must. It is a fairly short review without a lot of detail, but there is some emphasis on the gray scale issues with the Auto Iris and the need for calibration.

One thing I found odd was that the author just sort of blew off screen door as a non-issue with 1280x720 LCDs, but gave no mention of viewing distance. At 1.5 screen widths I see it clearly and must do quite a bit of defocus before it stops bugging me.

I still have not seen a review that mentions the problem with the lines at the image boundary when viewing 2.35 movies, even though most mention testing a 480i or 480p source. It must be unit dependent, because it is very obvious on my HS-51 at 480 lines. It doesn't bother me since I don't watch any 480 sources, I have only seen it when testing.

Originally posted by jschefdog
One thing I found odd was that the author just sort of blew off screen door as a non-issue with 1280x720 LCDs, but gave no mention of viewing distance. At 1.5 screen widths I see it clearly and must do quite a bit of defocus before it stops bugging me.


It depends on how you are sensible/bugged by screen door. I sit at 1.5 (13ft on a 106" diag. screen) and although I can see it a bit it does not bothered me. I don't have 20/20 vision but I do wear glasses...


I still have not seen a review that mentions the problem with the lines at the image boundary when viewing 2.35 movies, even though most mention testing a 480i or 480p source. It must be unit dependent, because it is very obvious on my HS-51 at 480 lines. It doesn't bother me since I don't watch any 480 sources, I have only seen it when testing.

Don't have that problem on mine so it sure is unit dependent.

I love the thing, especially HD stuff which looks fabulous :)

Originally posted by masterpasser
I know SOWK recommends 720p through the VGA converter -but still get the blanking running PAL here in Oz. .

no blanking with vga 720 and pal (50hz)

Originally posted by Busherie
no blanking with vga 720 and pal (50hz)

I definitely am getting blanking with the 720p?
But not with 1080i.
In the set up menu , for Input A , I use Video GBR .
If I select Computer , it curtails the displayed image to 4:3.
Maybe I'm in error here?

I am running a Sony NS975V through an Ethereal EP-HDMI10 (10 meter HDMI to HDMI) to the HS51 and it looks just fine - No dropped frames. The projector ROM was rev'ed by Sony support a few weeks ago (and LCD panels aligned). It looks very good. The bundle up to the projector also includes a three line component cable, video line, and AC power.

Originally posted by jdb001
I am running a Sony NS975V through an Ethereal EP-HDMI10 (10 meter HDMI to HDMI) to the HS51 and it looks just fine - No dropped frames. The projector ROM was rev'ed by Sony support a few weeks ago (and LCD panels aligned). It looks very good. The bundle up to the projector also includes a three line component cable, video line, and AC power.

I been away from this forum for a while, but are you saying if you have panel misalignment that you can mail that in for an easy fix? If so you pay for shipping both ways? and what number do you call? Thanks.

Yes - essentially. Go to the Sony support site and punch in the serial number. They will tell you if it can be repaired. I paid for shipping one way - they shipped it back 2nd day air from Texas (but the projector went to CA first) at no charge. If the projector qualifies for warranty repair, there is no charge for the fix and the return shipping. It took about 14 days over a couple weekends.

great, is there any negative affects to getting the rom upgrade? I only really use this for watching movies, may move my x-box there.

And what are the mailing options? USPS, UPS, FedEx? And do you mail insured and tracking added on? Thanks.

I don't think they care how you ship it to them. They did not send me any requirements. Return was by UPS Next Day.

You may want to read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5489904#post5489904), which summarized my experience.

Originally posted by zeroendless
By the way, do little of google on powerstrip and see it for yourself. Latest version come with hundreds of preset resolutions and half of them are interace. Don't make me post screenshot of 1080I from ATI driver. That's from 1080i from PS [EDIT, not made up from POWERSTRIP], it come with ATI cat starting 4.10 i believe and make available for 'regular' resolution NOT ONLY dongle adapter. I doubt you see that from your laptor mobility driver.

If I may ask, what version of PowerStrip are you using, and what ATI video drivers?

Originally posted by reaper
I certainly have no reason to doubt you guys. I guess I'm just a doubter by nature. Hope you're right.

And rightly so...there are still a lot of VPL-VW10HT owners waiting for a firmware fix...if you search the archives, you may still be able to find threads similar to this one...

If I have a pixel misalignment of one magneta pixel on top, and one green pixel on the bottom. Would Sony fix this?

Originally posted by ay221
If I have a pixel misalignment of one magneta pixel on top, and one green pixel on the bottom. Would Sony fix this?
Somewhere way back in this thread I think someone said that they can electronically shift the red, green and blue image by full pixels without replacing any parts. So if your misalignment is more than 1/2 a pixel, they should be able to make it better.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Somewhere way back in this thread I think someone said that they can electronically shift the red, green and blue image by full pixels without replacing any parts. So if your misalignment is more than 1/2 a pixel, they should be able to make it better.

Would be nice if we could do that in the service menu. On the other hand, if this is really possible, then we know that 1:1 is also impossible if we wan't to use every every pixel. And that some of the pixel row's are reserved as a margin for aligning R/G/B? Or the panels could also have some spare lines over 1280x720 with this in mind.
Still a nicer option than opening the unit :).

Meanwhile, i'm waiting for the new units here in the netherlands, they could be in stock any day now :).

I recently picked up the hs51 not too long ago and love it. However, my DVD picture quality is less than stellar. I am currently using a Pioneer 45a, which I have come to find out does not have the best MPEG decoder. Now I just read through the whole 208 pages of this thread and feel pretty well informed and see that the VGA 1:1 mapping seems to be the best route. Now if I were to replace my DVD player my options seem to be the Momitsu V880-DX (which has DVI-I RGB support for the easiest connection) or maybe the new kid on the block the Oppo DV971H (which is DVI-D only requiring a $300 active DVI to VGA converter). My question is this, since picture quality is my main focus, would there be enough of a picture quality difference to warrant the purchase of the Oppo and converter? Or is the Momitsu just as good? Is there any other player that best matches our projector other than the above solutions? I really don't want to spend too much with HD-DVD/Bluray just around the corner. Thanks for the help guys!

Originally posted by Epicurus
I recently picked up the hs51 not too long ago and love it. However, my DVD picture quality is less than stellar. I am currently using a Pioneer 45a, which I have come to find out does not have the best MPEG decoder. Now I just read through the whole 208 pages of this thread and feel pretty well informed and see that the VGA 1:1 mapping seems to be the best route. Now if I were to replace my DVD player my options seem to be the Momitsu V880-DX (which has DVI-I RGB support for the easiest connection) or maybe the new kid on the block the Oppo DV971H (which is DVI-D only requiring a $300 active DVI to VGA converter). My question is this, since picture quality is my main focus, would there be enough of a picture quality difference to warrant the purchase of the Oppo and converter? Or is the Momitsu just as good? Is there any other player that best matches our projector other than the above solutions? I really don't want to spend too much with HD-DVD/Bluray just around the corner. Thanks for the help guys!

First everyones like oh no, here he comes again. LOL

I personally went the route of the Converter. - I believe I was the first.

The converter allows for 1:1 mapping, which will be really helpfull when HD-DVD's come out. The quality difference for standard DVD's may not be worth it, but You will still see more defined details.

Originally posted by Epicurus
INow I just read through the whole 208 pages of this thread and feel pretty well informed and see that the VGA 1:1 mapping seems to be the best route. Now if I were to replace my DVD player my options seem to be the Momitsu V880-DX (which has DVI-I RGB support for the easiest connection) or maybe the new kid on the block the Oppo DV971H (which is DVI-D only requiring a $300 active DVI to VGA converter). My question is this, since picture quality is my main focus, would there be enough of a picture quality difference to warrant the purchase of the Oppo and converter? Or is the Momitsu just as good? Is there any other player that best matches our projector other than the above solutions?
Probably a better place to ask would be the DVD forum, you might get more responses there. But this may help.

I am using a Sony DVP-NS975V upscaling player over HDMI and am very happy with it. I've had an HTPC for years and when I first got the HS-51 hooked it up via VGA to Input A and tweaked for 1:1 pixel mapping. Later I got the DVD player and I actually prefer it over the HTPC. I don't see any significant benefit from 1:1 mapping when watching DVDs and the DVD player seems to produce better color.

I'm not saying you should get this player. The point is that you may not need the DVI/VGA converter box if you get the Oppo or some other upscaling DVD player. There has also been some speculation that a player with HDMI out is preferable since it supports formats other than RGB which may produce a better image. I would suggest that you get the DVD player you want and try it. If you believe you see image issues related to the scaling, you can always get the converter later.

Greetings,

Epicurus, I also use an upscaling DVD player, the Denon DVD-3910. I use the player's HDMI output set to 720p. Image quality is excellent. I agree that you should get the player that you want and decide from there.


Regards,

Well thanks for the input guys, I pulled the trigger on the Oppo as reviews said it had decidedly better video over the Momitsu (and a "Secrets" score second only to the Denon 5910). I am sure the digital transport should make the video shine, otherwise I'll pick up the VGA converter.

I have a related question similar to the situation Epicurus was describing. I too have been lurking on this forum for 8 months or more, read nearly every message, and recently pulled the trigger on the HS51. I intend to hook up the HD-TIVO to the projector using HDMI. I also decided to purchase the Momitsu for its ability to upscale over component.

Please forgive a first time poster's first question, but I am trying to understand which connection will provide the best picture quality from the Momitsu given that the HDMI port is already spoken for. I can upscale over the component from the Momitsu, but I also understand that I can use the DVI out with a DVI-I to RGB cable (and have 720p 1:1 pixel mapping). Should one connection be expected to provide a better picture than the other?

If the DVI to RGB connection is expected to produce a better result, where does one get this cable (I am assuming it is different than adding some type of adapter)?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Hole, since you went for the Momitsu, I would say use the DVI out to VGA in on the HS51. Somewhere in the middle of this thread someone posted specific timings for the Momitsu and HS51 which will give you the 1:1 mapping you desire. As for the adapter, because the Momitsu uses DVI-I (analog support) you can get any DVI to VGA adapter around $10. I know a lot of computer stores carry these for computers with DVI video cards to connect to VGA monitors.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Hole, since you went for the Momitsu, I would say use the DVI out to VGA in on the HS51. Somewhere in the middle of this thread someone posted specific timings for the Momitsu and HS51 which will give you the 1:1 mapping you desire. As for the adapter, because the Momitsu uses DVI-I (analog support) you can get any DVI to VGA adapter around $10. I know a lot of computer stores carry these for computers with DVI video cards to connect to VGA monitors.

Here are my timings I posted way back when...

http://img40.exs.cx/img40/3103/settings6qy.jpg

You still have to enter the custom timings menu in the Momitsu though. Once there, you can enter the above timings for 1:1 mapping.

Hello All,

I have a question regarding my HS51, My wife and I were watching a movie the other night and I noticed that people on the right hand side of the screen were a greenish flesh tone, while people on the left side of the screen were a more pinkish skin tone. This color shift only happens on flesh tones, the rest of the picture seems normal. I adjusted to Gamma 1 and that seemed to help a little. I have approx 150 hrs on my unit. Any Help would be great!!!

My set up:

HS51
110" Firehawk
Toshiba combo VHS/DVD via Conponent.

Settings:

Contrast=81
Brightness=65
Color=53
Hue=47
Black Level= off
Auto Iris= Auto
Low Lamp Mode

Thanks in advance!!

Dave

Epicurios:

I have a HS51 connected via a DVDO iScan HD+ and it is awesome. Maybe instead of replacing your DVD player you just need to feed a interlaced component feed into the DVDO from the Pioneer (this removes almost all the procesing from the player). The results have been stunning for me. I do prefer the HDMI connection over the VGA though... YMMV..

Raf

Originally posted by Epicurus
I recently picked up the hs51 not too long ago and love it. However, my DVD picture quality is less than stellar. I am currently using a Pioneer 45a, which I have come to find out does not have the best MPEG decoder. Now I just read through the whole 208 pages of this thread and feel pretty well informed and see that the VGA 1:1 mapping seems to be the best route. Now if I were to replace my DVD player my options seem to be the Momitsu V880-DX (which has DVI-I RGB support for the easiest connection) or maybe the new kid on the block the Oppo DV971H (which is DVI-D only requiring a $300 active DVI to VGA converter). My question is this, since picture quality is my main focus, would there be enough of a picture quality difference to warrant the purchase of the Oppo and converter? Or is the Momitsu just as good? Is there any other player that best matches our projector other than the above solutions? I really don't want to spend too much with HD-DVD/Bluray just around the corner. Thanks for the help guys!

Rieper and Epicurus -

Thanks for your thoughts. Should the upscaling on the Momitsu still work correctly if connected through the DVI to VGA correctly? It seems like the DVI connection would still provide for the upscaling, but I am not technical enough to know if the DVI to VGA somehow effects the upscaling.

Dave:

What you are seeing is called a color uniformity or shading problem. It is a problem native to three chip designs in LCD and LCos. I'm not sure about three chip DLP.

It varies among manufacturers: The newer JVCs are reportedly quite good. I've seen several Yamaha 510 LCDs and have never seen the slightest problem. Sony has been very lazy with this issue. The degree of this problem with the HS51 varies greatly between units. IMO, it is by far the biggest drawback of this projector.

On most units it is quite difficult to notice whan watching color material. But if you put up a black and white image, any problems will be very obvious - and annoying.

There is a way to make adjustments for this in the factory menu. There is a post about it way back in this thread. But it is extremely tedious, time consuming, and difficult to do. It involves something like one thousand settings. I know how difficult it is because I have tried it. I've spent over twelve hours to gain about a 10% improvement, and now I'm taking a rest. I haven't finished the process, but I may quit where I am - time will tell.

Yamaha seems to have completely conquered this problem, and I'm sure that Sony could too, but very few reviewers seem to complain about it. And there are very few complaints on this forum. I've seen several HS51s that were laughably green/magenta. I just don't think there is any pressure on Sony to fix the problem. Sony responded very well to the 720 issue. If reviewers picked up on this problem, I think Sony would solve it also.

This thread has hundreds of pages about pixel mapping - with many screen shots of Windows desktops to demonstrate the outrage of missing one row of pixels. No one seems to have a problem with the fact that their task bar changes color completely from one side of the screen to the other.

I hope you can learn to ignore it.
Good luck.

Pip

Originally posted by Pip
Dave:

What you are seeing is called a color uniformity or shading problem. It is a problem native to three chip designs in LCD and LCos. I'm not sure about three chip DLP.
Pip

It has to do with panel alignment. The best way to see misalignment is by using HDNet's registration pattern which is broadcast every Tuesday @ 8am. I don't have an HD+ but I believe that outputs the same pattern as well. Basically, if you see any color on the bars or on the outside of the cross bars then you have panel misalignment. This misalignment will produce significant color uniformity errors giving you reddish, bluish, greenish tints on either side of your screen.

If you call Juan (Laredo Service center) and ask about this panel alingment issue he will ask you to send in your HS51 for inspection/repair. Unfortunately, unless it is severe enough to warrant a prism block replacement, you will in all likelihood have your HS51 returned with a note saying "No fault found".

To add insult to injury, a prism block replacement does NOT guarantee proper panel alignment either. Don't know exactly why this is...

And yes, it is very annoying to pay $3000 and have this problem. I hated it as well. Sorry :(

Originally posted by Rieper
If you call Juan (Laredo Service center) and ask about this panel alingment issue he will ask you to send in your HS51 for inspection/repair. Unfortunately, unless it is severe enough to warrant a prism block replacement, you will in all likelihood have your HS51 returned with a note saying "No fault found".


Some people claimed this:

Somewhere way back in this thread I think someone said that they can electronically shift the red, green and blue image by full pixels without replacing any parts. So if your misalignment is more than 1/2 a pixel, they should be able to make it better.

Does it depends who it gets sent to on whether they will fix this electronically?

Originally posted by Hole
Rieper and Epicurus -

Thanks for your thoughts. Should the upscaling on the Momitsu still work correctly if connected through the DVI to VGA correctly? It seems like the DVI connection would still provide for the upscaling, but I am not technical enough to know if the DVI to VGA somehow effects the upscaling.

Yes, with the timings Rieper supplied, you will be upscaling the image to 720p through DVI so it is running at the exact pixel resolution of the LCD panels in the HS51 (1:1 pixel mapping).

It has to do with panel alignment.
Panel alignment has NOTHING to do with color uniformity. Panel alignment issues look just like convergence problems on older CRT sets. Color uniformity issues will exist, however, regardless of how good the projector's panel alignment is. Pip is right...there is a way to adjust for color uniformity in the service menu, but it is extremely tedious and probably not worth the effort.

Pip,

In another post a couple of weeks ago, you had both the Sony HS51 and Toshiba MT700. May I ask which projector you decided to keep and why?

Thank you Schwa. You are correct.

neoisone: I hope anyone reading this takes the time to read my more detailed post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5522061#post5522061). I think both projectors produce excellent images. I still have the Sony for one reason - the incorrect "zoom" aspect ratio on the Toshiba. I'm sure that this will be fixed with subsequent units, but I needed to finish up my install, and I could not wait.

Had it not been for this one issue, I would have been delighted with the Toshiba. But a projector which can not properly display "Vertigo" isn't much use to me.

I think all who are not bothered by DLP artifacts will be delighted with the Toshiba, and all who have decent light control, and a properly sized/gain screen will be delighted with the Sony.

Pip

Can you guys point me to the post that tells how you can adjust color uniformity? I'll make the effort to get the adjustment right. Thanks.

Dave

OK here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5068315#post5068315) is the post.

I would add a couple of suggestions:
Before you begin, print yourself out a spreadsheet grid for each of the levels 2 - 9. Write down all of the original settings before you change anything.
Don't bother changing anything on the bottom two levels (0 and 1), or the top two levels (10 and 11).
Also I think it's important not to change any of the green settings.
I would focus on the red settings.

These suggestions are not scientifically based! They're only based on my limited experience and complete lack of knowledge!

If you have any luck, let us know how you did it.

Pip

Originally posted by Hole
I have a related question similar to the situation Epicurus was describing. I too have been lurking on this forum for 8 months or more, read nearly every message, and recently pulled the trigger on the HS51. I intend to hook up the HD-TIVO to the projector using HDMI. I also decided to purchase the Momitsu for its ability to upscale over component.

Please forgive a first time poster's first question, but I am trying to understand which connection will provide the best picture quality from the Momitsu given that the HDMI port is already spoken for. I can upscale over the component from the Momitsu, but I also understand that I can use the DVI out with a DVI-I to RGB cable (and have 720p 1:1 pixel mapping). Should one connection be expected to provide a better picture than the other?

If the DVI to RGB connection is expected to produce a better result, where does one get this cable (I am assuming it is different than adding some type of adapter)?


Why not run the HDTivo over component and the DVD over HDMI. I cannot tell the difference from the my HDTivo over component versus HDMI.

Kevin,

I will try that. I watch more HD TV than DVD's so I had thought to use the most used source with the best quality connection, the HDMI. But, as you say, if the HDTIVO on component is nearly identical then I will stay with it as I am sure the Momitsu is better on the HDMI port.

Thanks for the idea.

Hole,

I thought the same thing when trying to figure out which DVD player up-converts over component. Finally, I gave up and bought the Sony Up-converting DVD for use with HDMI and HDTivo via component. All is well with both connections.

Good luck!

Hi
Would like to know all the best settings on HS50.
Also differences to set if any when using HDMI and Component cables
Thanks

Originally posted by errm
Would like to know all the best settings on HS50.
Also differences to set if any when using HDMI and Component cables
Thanks
Unfortunately the best settings depend on your source, input used, screen, room, lighting and possibly your particular unit. So someone else's settings may not be best for you. To get the best settings for your setup, buy a disk such as Digital Video Essentials or Avia and follow the instructions. Even better would be a professional calibration, but that costs quite a bit more.

However you might be able to find some tips and guidelines in the HS-51 Tweak Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485063) which has gotten buried due to lack of recent posts. You might want to start with the User 3 setting, which by default are the same as the Cinema setting, and tweak from there. Most of the reviews indicated the Cinema setting was the best of the 3 defaults.

HELP !!!

Does anyone know the "SAFE" serial number/range for the Canadian version of the projector (HS50) ?
By "Safe" I mean to include the latest fixes and a fixed panel alignment.

Thanks !!

Corry

Can you use the website or is it different for HS50?

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

I don't think is the same. The HS50 is different than the HS51. It's missing the ethernet port and something else.
Also on the website you mention it states at the end that the return address MUST be in US.

Of course in Canada we always get screwed...

just thought I would post a quick ?? for the hs51 freaks
I am looking to go from a Barco 808s 8" CRT to the hs51, I have a black hole for a room, 100% black and 100% light control because of no windows :D
I sit 10.5 feet from a 70" wide screen, not speaking of black level does anyone think I will be pleased??
does HDTV actually look as good on your personal hs51 as these screenshots below??:

http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/lib/editor/up_image/1104208056.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/lib/editor/up_image/1104208077.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/lib/editor/up_image/1104208097.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/lib/editor/up_image/1104208086.jpg

they are from:

http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/goodalign/good_detail.php?goodcd=1103772504

I have searched a read every thread on the hs51, it has taken me over 7 days
Problem is, I live in the sticks and cannot view this PJ locally, so I must order sight unseen
Anyones opinion is very welcome

-Gary

I sit 10.5 feet from a 70" wide screen, not speaking of black level does anyone think I will be pleased??

No, I don't think so. In my opinion a properly calibrated 8"CRT has WAY better blacklevel than the HS50/51.

My biggest complaint with the HS50 is colorshifting when the auto iris set to on. Can I do anything about it? I'm planning on buying a Smart III calibration system, will it be a good investment?

Thanks,

Thanks for your opinion anbjornk

not putting black level into the mix, do you think it would be right for me??

Gosh I wish i could see this thing in person

I view 90% 1080i HDTV content from my huge D-VHS collection and satellite sources. so this would be what the hs51 would be used for

I have owned CRT pj's for years, my eyes have never seen a digital PJ in person, nada zip none, I live in Eastern KY not exactly a tech or HT hot spot and it would take me 7 hours round trip to see one :(

-Gary

not putting black level into the mix, do you think it would be right for me??

Honestly, I dont know. It's a fine machine for sure, but I don't think I would trade an exellent CRT for it. (It offcourse depends on noise, space etc)

Tha HS50/51 is very silent, which is great. The image is also good, but maybe not as good as I expected. The auto iris kind of bothers me, especially in dark films eg. Underworld.

Not an easy decision...

Gary,

Type "Barco 808" in the "Search this Thread" box at the bottom right of this page. It will bring up posts by usabrian who seems to prefer the Sony HS51 over his Barco 808.

Crutchfield has a 30 day return policy but they charge full msrp.

Gary,

You might be interested in this post by usabrian:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4854102#post4854102

Originally posted by Gary Murrell
just thought I would post a quick ?? for the hs51 freaks
I am looking to go from a Barco 808s 8" CRT to the hs51, I have a black hole for a room, 100% black and 100% light control because of no windows :D
I sit 10.5 feet from a 70" wide screen, not speaking of black level does anyone think I will be pleased??
My previous PJ was a DWIN 7" CRT and I'm very happy with the HS-51. As you would expect black levels are not as good, but the picture is much sharper and HD looks much more detailed. My CRT would do 1280x720, but due to the beam spot size the lines started to overlap at about 600 lines.

Since you are in a dark room on a relatively small screen, I think the HS-51 will be bright enough. I have a 72" wide 1.5 gain screen and it is much brighter than the CRT. In fact, I have to turn down the contrast below 60 or it hurts my eyes. I probably need to go to a lower gain screen, but it was a good choice for the dimmer CRT when I bought it.

Since you are at 1.8 screen widths screen door may not be an issue. I sit at 1.5 and need to defocus somewhat or it really bugs me. Definitely not as smooth as a CRT, but even with the defocus it is still sharper.

Overall I think you would be happy with the HS-51. But to be safe buy from an online dealer with a good return policy just in case. You might also check sonystyle.com. They also charge full MSRP, but often have some sort of deal or incentive. When I bought mine from them I got a $200 coupon for a future purchase which I used to get their upscaling DVD player for only $100.

Gary,

I've got an HS51 and love it. But I really think you need to see one in use for yourself even if it means a 7 hour round trip. I made a 9 hour round trip to audition some speakers before buying a set on the internet. I was glad I did. That gave me the confidence I needed to go ahead and make the purchase. I read a lot of great reviews before I made the trip. But for me I really needed to hear for myself.

I'd be happy to host an HS51 audition for you, but I'm about 7 hours from you 1-way.

Dale

I've had my HS51 for about a week, and wanted to share some insights I've gained from my testing of how close to mount the PJ in relation to the screen. On the same size screen, I had the Sony on a tall stand (appx 5') and moved it as close to the screen as possible, maintaining the same screen size. I took FtC measurements of center and lower right hand corner to determine both light intensity and uniformity at the extremities of the zoom lens. I then moved the Sony as far back from the screen as possible, of course maintaining the same screen sizing.

I remember reading one post discussing that at the close end, a zoom lens can increase its aperture, just like in a camera telephoto lens, the aperture can open more at the wide angle portion than the narrow angle portion (note zoom lens aperture ratings, usually something like "1.7-3.5"). Since the analogy made perfect sense from my photography days, I wanted to see if it was measurable. Meter was a Sekonic C-508 Cine.

Ignore what the global values are, as they don't mean anything (uncalibrated, etc.) - only consider the comparison to each other. Here is what I found with a 100IRE full field:

Closest to the screen: Significantly brighter output, slightly worse uniformity.
Center = 6.9FtC, RH Corner = 5.6FtC, Uniformity 81%

Farthest from the screen: Significantly dimmer output, slightly better uniformity.
Center = 4.3FtC, RH Corner = 3.7FtC, Uniformity 86%

I also found on the component inputs that 480p was about 10% brighter than 480i, using my Lexicon RT-10.

Using these results, I decided to start the mounting position as close to the screen as possible (since I think brightness is more of an issue than uniformity), and then move it back to the nearest stud so its not at the extreme end of its zoom. Gotta have some margin, and the ends of optical zooms are usually fuzzed up a bit. Seems like this aperture/brightness to focal length tradeoff would apply to all zoom lens projectors?

Cheers,
Chris

After reading through more pages about the HS50(1) than Tolkien wrote about the One Ring, I think I'm pretty ready to get my wallet out and buy the projector... except for one small snag.

The short-throw nature of the HS50.. :(

Having just measured my room, it's a little over 5 metres (16.4') in length, which according to ProjectorCentral means I end up with a 112'' picture (diagonal, 97'' width) if the screen is at one end and the projector at the other. Unfortunatly I can't ceiling mount the HS50 due to the house being rented and them frowning on such things..

After having both read about the lack of brightness on this projector, and working out where I'd need to sit to be within 1.5x-1.8x the width.. this just seems like it's probably going to be way too large an image to be usable. :mad:

I was hoping someone might know of a way to change the throw of the projector - a long-throw lens adaptor or some-such.. I know it's a long shot, but does such a thing exist for the HS50?

Thanks!
Matt

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it

my only concern would be screendoor at my seating distance, black level would probably be good enough to please me

yes I have read the many post frok Brian as he had my CRT and did in fact take the hs51, he too said the screen door issue was the spoiler of the unit and that if you sit back far enough it gives a beautiful image, in the end he did take it over his Barco which says something

I might have to take a trip down to Lexington

Dale thanks for the offer, if you were a little closer I would take you up on it

-Gary

Originally posted by Llorian
Having just measured my room, it's a little over 5 metres (16.4') in length, which according to ProjectorCentral means I end up with a 112'' picture (diagonal, 97'' width) if the screen is at one end and the projector at the other. Unfortunatly I can't ceiling mount the HS50 due to the house being rented and them frowning on such things..
Matt
I assume you are measuring from the lens to the screen. the pj is about 15" long , and you want to add another 5" or so behind it from the back wall, so 20" from back wall. A shelf mounted HS51 projecting on a 8' wide hi power makes a very nice combo!

Can someone post their default Service Menu values for W/B - Custom 1:


Red Gain =

Green Gain =

Blue Gain =



Thanks.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
I assume you are measuring from the lens to the screen. the pj is about 15" long , and you want to add another 5" or so behind it from the back wall, so 20" from back wall. A shelf mounted HS51 projecting on a 8' wide hi power makes a very nice combo!

Yup, that was from lens to screen - although I think I can shrink it down by a few inches....

When you say 'hi power' for the screen, how high a gain are you using?

Thanks!

Has anyone found a way to place your own startup image on the HS51 yet?

reaper

Originally posted by Llorian
When you say 'hi power' for the screen, how high a gain are you using?


He's referring to a screen model: the Dalite Highpower, which is a high gain type and is well regarded for many different reasons. Highly recommended. More info in the screen section here at AVS.

Gordon

Originally posted by Llorian
Yup, that was from lens to screen - although I think I can shrink it down by a few inches....

When you say 'hi power' for the screen, how high a gain are you using?

Thanks!

High Power is rated 2.8 gain by Da-Lite. However, you have to sit inside the moderate viewing cone (25°) and the projector should be level with your head to acheive the full 2.8 gain. Great screen if you want the colors to pop out at you.

More info: http://www.da-lite.com/products/selecting.php

Originally posted by Llorian
After reading through more pages about the HS50(1) than Tolkien wrote about the One Ring, I think I'm pretty ready to get my wallet out and buy the projector... except for one small snag.

The short-throw nature of the HS50.. :(
...

Unfortunatly I can't ceiling mount the HS50 due to the house being rented and them frowning on such things.
If you can't ceiling mount, you could just place the HS-51 on some tall object behind the seating so it shoots over your head. The lens shift is very flexible and has a large vertical range. With the horizontal lens shift it can even be off center. If you don't have a good piece of furniture for this, you could maybe rig up a coat rack, pole lamp, or something similar as a base (contingent on Spousal Acceptance of course :D).

http://bellsouthpwp.net/i/a/iamcuriousgeorge/images/pjstand.jpg

This may not be the prettiest girl at the dance, but it solved several problems for me, and at a very reasonable price. Da-Lite makes it. List is around $150.

Originally posted by Robert George

This may not be the prettiest girl at the dance, but it solved several problems for me, and at a very reasonable price. Da-Lite makes it. List is around $150.

Thanks for pointing the stand out - I may well look into getting one :)

My only concern about going down that path has been that I suspect the projector might end up getting knocked and potentially damaged... especially after the empty beer cans start stacking up :rolleyes:

Hello,
I've got me a Hs50 in the uk and i'm going to start using it with a scaler.

But we are still having a bit of a problem getting the (720p blanking), firmware fix.

So, have you recieved the firmware fix over there, and does it work?

Many people here have received the firmware fix for blanking and confirmed it fixed the issue. It was documented several times...

Using a scaler with the new fix is useless since it doesn't allow for 1:1 mapping. The old version of the PJ does.

sorry. Dont understand.
why is this.
Could you please expand.

Also Could i output HDMI-DVI form my DVD player into a scaler such as a lumagen and Then go From the DVI-I output on the scaler to the VGA on the hs50

Well, I mailed my projector to Loredo for the 720p fix; it was delivered by FedEx to them on Monday morning, May 9. Today is the 13th and the Sony Repair site still reports that the projector has not been received. Kind of disconcerting. They've had the proj for a week and still have not signed it in? Anyone else have this situation?

Gary

Doesn't the autoiris bother any of you folks?

originally posted by anbjornk

My biggest complaint with the HS50 is colorshifting when the auto iris set to on. Can I do anything about it? I'm planning on buying a Smart III calibration system, will it be a good investment?....

Doesn't the autoiris bother any of you folks?

The only thing about the autoiris that bothers me is the colorshifting. I'm quite sensitive to it, and it really bothers me with black and white material, but as hard as I look, I can never notice it with color material.

On my unit, even with black and white material, I doubt that the colorshifting would be very noticable without the color uniformity problem. I think that's the real problem which makes the colorshifting of the autoiris obvious.

I have found that getting a better grayscale greatly reduces the colorshifting. The factory low color temp greatly exaggerates the problem. The question is how to get a good grayscale. Due to the autoiris, it is very difficult, and it appears that some compromises must be made. I used Smart with my 10HT and found it to be a great product, but from reading the tweaks thread, and especially Kris Deering's new thread, I wonder if it would be much help. You might try Kris's settings first and see how they look. They have been by far the best I have been able to attain. At least one other member has said the same thing - even after trying Colorfacts - which is much more advanced than Smart.

Even with the problems it introduces, I sill think the autoiris is a great device. I don't know of anyone who run their projector wothout it. If Sony would ship their units with better calibration of grayscale and color uniformity, I think the visiblility of the colorshift would be enormously reduced.

Good luck.

Pip

I have just a couple of quick questions?

1.) Is there some general good settings for this unit? Contrast/Sharpness etc.. Black Level settings for this unit?

2.) What screen to use with this unit? I have a dedicated HT room no ambient light and or windows, and I was told I would be better off with a Greyhawk or StudioTek screen. Several people have told me this and I just read another review that stated the same..

http://www.docdvd.com/index.php?module=reviews_show&category=hardware&reviewID=13342

So far I am pretty impressed with the unit, although Sony should tell you they ship the damn thing with the Lens in the very far down position and when it arrived I thought the lens was broken, this has happen to several people I know that have this unit, I guess you should RFM, but it doesn't state it in the manual anywhere about it being shipped like this. So far no vertical banning issues with this unit, unlike my HS20 but I wish the Sony HS51 came with a similar cable that the HS20 had, or at least you could use the old cable which you can't :(

Also how can one tell if you have the upgrade for the firmware fix and where can one obtain this if you don't? And what does this firmware fix?

Thanks for any good direction on my questions.

Gman

Originally posted by Garman
I have just a couple of quick questions?

1.) Is there some general good settings for this unit? Contrast/Sharpness etc.. Black Level settings for this unit?

Thanks for any good direction on my questions.

Gman

Have you taken a gander at this thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5612449#post5612449

Very informative. And most people like the results from settings posted.

Does anyone know how many hours of lamp life you are likely to get by running the HS51 in Dynamic mode all the time to get the better brightness from it.

Originally posted by navigator
Does anyone know how many hours of lamp life you are likely to get by running the HS51 in Dynamic mode all the time to get the better brightness from it.
Dynamic Mode is IRIS OFF, which is the worse CR mode, SGHT measured < 600:1 in that mode. Dynamic mode also give you black crush and white clip, but it does look like a "punchy" picture. use cinema mode and lamp high brightness instead.

Originally posted by navigator
Does anyone know how many hours of lamp life you are likely to get by running the HS51 in Dynamic mode all the time to get the better brightness from it.

To answer your question, here is what Projector Central's review states on the HS51 Lamp life:

"Lamp life and fan noise. In normal operation, estimated lamp life is 2000 hours. In eco-mode or cinema mode, fan noise is reduced and lamp life is increased to 3000 hours.

These figures should be taken with a grain of salt though, as bulb life is not scientific. I'd venture to guess Dynamic mode will give you at least 1500hrs.

Thanks for that info Rieper

Thanks also to HoustonHoya

Originally posted by Garman
Also how can one tell if you have the upgrade for the firmware fix and where can one obtain this if you don't? And what does this firmware fix?
Simple questions with long answers. The fix changes 720P from having a black border around the edge (blanking) to filling the screen but having about 2% overscan. There has been much debate over whether or not the pre-fix units provided 1:1 pixel mapping in spite of the blanking. Some have speculated it might be better to have a pre-fix unit if this is important to you.

Somewhere back there Bytehoven posted a link to a web page that you can use to submit your unit for this service. If you enter the serial number on this web page, it will tell you whether or not you need it. If you search this thread for "firmware" or "ROM" you can find the firmware level which fixed this issue.

Has anyone done a formal or semi-formal review of the old vs. new HS51?

I've read Kris's review of the pixel mapping, but I'm wondering in particular about the video filtering.

I've heard from a reliable source that the amount of video filtering on the older HDMI 720P connection was more severe than the newer version with the blanking fix.

Has anyone brought up a multi-burst pattern on the old vs. new?

I'm trying to make up my mind, but in general it's difficult, because each person seems to fixate on such a small subset of issues. I wish all the mags would re-evaluate the old vs. new so we could get the whole updated picture. (so to speak :)

Bytehoven, what was your final conclusion between the two versions?

Thanks,
Ken

Originally posted by KenLand
Bytehoven, what was your final conclusion between the two versions?

Thanks,
Ken

My conclusion? I know the HS-51 will probably not be my LAST projector. However, I find its performance of greater comfort than my HT1000, letting me watch as many movies as I want without any DLP side effects.

I was not able to make a side-by-side comparison of the pre & post updated projector, so I take Kris's word on the absolute clarity advantage of the pre update version. However, because I need to switch between 1080i, 720p and 480i/p sources, I absolutely wanted the upgrade.

I am watching an 80" diagonal screen from 11', and the setup is serving the family HT very nicely. When I want to watch a bigger image by myself, I sit a little closer.

IMHO, the HS-51 pre or post update, is still the best alternative to a single chip DLP, especially when you consider the price.

I feel we have all benefited from the calibration info people have posted, as these alternate settings helped me dial in my own projector, surpassing the performace of the factory options.

Has anyone here had problems with the service in Laredo? A friend of mine sent his off and has had nothing but problems since. He had to call repeatedly to get an idea of when the unit would be returned. He wasn't pushing them to return it quickly, he simply wanted to know when it was coming so he'd be there to receive it. Then, he gets the unit and it has all of these problems:


1. It was packaged incorrectly. The top cardboard insert piece was installed upside-down and the projector was LOOSE inside the box.
2. There is a fingerprint or something dirty on the lens, it was not cleaned properly from the service center.
3. The lens shift assembly is broken. The wheel sometimes catches on something and when lowering the lens assembly using the vertical lens shift knob, the lens assembly sometimes pops and the image FALLS down.
4. The fan is now more audible in low-lamp mode and is much louder in high-lamp mode than it was before the shipment. Before the repair work was done, we’d never heard the fan.
5. The auto-iris is NOT working properly. When viewing a black and white test aspect-ratio test pattern (circle-test), the pattern appears at the same intensity for a few seconds, it then begins to get darker and darker after several seconds and you can actually see the level change several times. This was also observable while watching a few minutes of video

I went over to his house last night to check it out along with the new Oppo player and I left feeling very bad for him. We just kept discovering more and more problems with the unit. I've heard nothing but good about Laredo until now, so this seemed to be a little out of character for them.

Also, I'd like to ask if anyone has any issue with lense shift. Do you guys find that your image drifts over time? He will set up his projecter and watch a movie. After watching for a while, the image will be slightly off center. He asked Sony to address this issue while they had it in for the firmware upgrade but instead they seem to have made it worse as described above. It's possible that the bass is bouncing it around on the shelf, but that seems a little unlikely. He's not really pushing that much bass in the room... no powered subwoofer even.

Any thoughts?

BTW, he did get in contact with Sony and they do seemt o be willing to address the issues. So, all hope is not lost. But the deal is not complete... so we'll see if they follow through.

reaper

For the louder fan, another person on this board had the same problem. They had turned on the high altitude setting.

I posted my experience with just their admitting they had the unit. I found out that Loredo has a huge backlog; my unit sat a week in the dock before it was even logged in.

Of course, I'm still waiting. I hope for a better experience than your friend's. If I'd had know what a hassle this was going to be, I'd have just forgotten about the firmware upgrade. Now I'm afraid as to what I'll be receiving once it is finished.

Gary

I am Reaper's friend and I've just joined to share in the whole, mostly wonderful, HS51 experience!

Based on what I've heard from Reaper, my experience with Laredo is very UNLIKE the experience other's have had with them. That said, as an electrical engineer at a major A/V electronics company, I'm disappointed as to how things were handled from the moment my unit arrived at their shop and how disorganized everything was. I'm incredibly upset that I received a damaged product that was packaged incorrectly for its return trip. Currently, there is light at the end of the tunnel as we (Sony and my wife and I) are working things out day by day.

As for the fan noise - high-elevation mode was turned OFF and that was the first thing I checked after looking at the lamp and iris-mode settings (which were low and ON, respectively).

Before my wife and I sent the projector down to Laredo for the firmware upgrade and an inspection of the "wandering" lens shift control mechanism, we NEVER heard the fan when watching in the Cinema mode. After only about 5 minutes of watching it out of the box last night, I could hear the fan, no problem in Cinema mode. Not loud, but noticeable. So I tried Dynamic mode and at one point, the fan kicked on loudly for about 20-30 seconds and was way beyond acceptable. We live in Indy, not the Alps.

The lens shift mechanism now feels notchy and when raising and lowering, it pops down during lowering and is no longer smooth.

Part of testing the returned unit was also a series of test patterns. I simply used the THX optimizer images provided with Monsters, Inc. Of particular interest was the result of the rather un-interesting aspect-ratio test that simply shows a thin white-line peripheral box and a thin white-line circle. Of course it was a circle with the right settings, but here is where it got really weird. After staring at it for about 4-5 seconds, the image got harder to see. I thought, well, it's 11PM and I'm tired, so I switched back a screen and re-started the test pattern. Sure enough, the image was solid for about 3 seconds and then all of a sudden it started "ratcheting" down and darker. My wife says "did you see that?" and I'm thinking, it must be bad if my wife is seeing this, she is not a picky engineer like myself or Reaper, surrounded by video on a daily basis.

Reaper was over and during part of Matrix2:Reloaded, the image started showing a slow sinusoidal type lightening/darkening sequence. Reaper and I both looked at each other and he said first "did you see that?". Ok, that's not good.

My assumption is this, the unit is trashed from shipment.
But I wonder, is this normal behaviour for the iris with the new Firmware?
For the 90+ hours that my wife and I watched movies before this, I never 1X saw anything from the IRIS. As an engineer, I was impressed. Now, within 5 minutes of viewing, 3 of us see it at the same time?

I really hope this is a damaged unit and not their idea of a firmware upgrade.

As for the firmware upgrade to fix 720p via HDMI input, it looked correct to me.

Reaper,

Is the Auto Iris supposed to be instant? I use Milori's free pattern generator from the site and when I go to the brightness screen I can actually see the image get darker and darker. I actually let the image sit for a seconds before adjusting my brightness level from the remote. I also watched the movie Darkness the other night and was really not impressed with the blacks. The image seemed abit washed out. I never had the firmware fix done yet. I sort of thought the Iris promoted better dark movie viewing.

Oh ya, I use a HTPC with the VGA input.

Originally posted by Pete_from_Indy
As for the fan noise - high-elevation mode was turned OFF and that was the first thing I checked after looking at the lamp and iris-mode settings (which were low and ON, respectively).

The lens shift mechanism now feels notchy and when raising and lowering, it pops down during lowering and is no longer smooth.
I also found that the lens shift was much rougher after sending my HS-51 for service. I suspect because they did not replace the foam insert around the zoom ring as it was when I first received it and when I shipped it to them. See my previous post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5489904#post5489904) for the details of my experience.

When mine came back the High Altitude mode was ON and the fan was loud, but turning it off reduced the fan noise to a level similar to before service. However, I have noticed more fan noise now that the weather is warmer. This might explain the increased fan noise if your room is now warmer than it was before you sent it for service.

I also thought that the Auto Iris seemed slower when viewing some test patterns, but was not sure I remembered how it was before sending it in.

There are some items in the Factory menu which affect the Auto Iris. I think they were discussed in the tweaks thread. It is possible that changing some of these will improve the Iris response.

I read your previous post.
I would say I feel the same way, except that I now have the Oppo DVD player and that was the only real reason I sent the projector off for the firmware fix. As for my lens shift issues, they were certainly nowhere near as bad before as they were after the return of the unit. Would I do it again just for the Oppo? Doubtful - I'd probably just run 1080i and live with an occasional adjustment of the lens shift.

Interesting to hear that the Iris response might actually be normal. That's disturbing for a number of reasons. One is that it won't matter which unit they send me next (repaired or new) because my wife and I have seen it and will now start noticing it regularly if that is normal behaviour.

Has anyone actually modified a setting in the factory menu for response time of the Iris and can comment as to the benefits of doing this?
Does access to the factory menu void the warranty?

The room was warmer than usual by about 4 to 6 degrees, but that's about it. If that's how much more audible it'll be at +6 ambient, then what happens at +12? I'd hate to think.

Anyway, I already miss the thing...

So, Pete; what did Sony offer to do for you? Did they at least pay for the shipping back to Loredo? Did they promise a quick turn-around?

Gary

OMG.. I would be pissed off dude..

after dropping 3gs on this unit and they screw it up..?

can you return the unit to the seller..?

Otherwise, don't get stuck with that garbage, it's simply not worth it.

Ebay it, these units are going for nearly retail on all the auctions..

2 cents, and goodluck,
Fabian.

No way am I releasing my pj to any service centre-unless I have a break down.
Some horror stories reported here -I'm living with the capabilities of this pj by VGA input and a DVI to VGA converter .I am very happy with it's performance.
No more meddling , I'm just going to watch movies from now on.

Originally posted by 2ntense
Reaper,

Is the Auto Iris supposed to be instant? I use Milori's free pattern generator from the site and when I go to the brightness screen I can actually see the image get darker and darker. I actually let the image sit for a seconds before adjusting my brightness level from the remote. I also watched the movie Darkness the other night and was really not impressed with the blacks. The image seemed abit washed out. I never had the firmware fix done yet. I sort of thought the Iris promoted better dark movie viewing.

Oh ya, I use a HTPC with the VGA input.

I believe I have read in this very thread that the iris response time is not quick enough to adjust for every frame of video. Therefore you may see some lag. Some people mentioned noticing it in the past. But, I had been looking for this behaviour and never saw it myself until that night. It was really bad... it looked as though the actor was standing in front of a flickering monitor. It *was* the matrix, so perhaps that's is exactly what was happening. But Pete seems to have confirmed that he noticed it elsewhere.

reap

Originally posted by reaper
I believe I have read in this very thread that the iris response time is not quick enough to adjust for every frame of video. Therefore you may see some lag. Some people mentioned noticing it in the past. But, I had been looking for this behaviour and never saw it myself until that night. It was really bad... it looked as though the actor was standing in front of a flickering monitor. It *was* the matrix, so perhaps that's is exactly what was happening. But Pete seems to have confirmed that he noticed it elsewhere.

reap

To clarify on this, I would not say the wandering brightness level seemed to be related in any way to a flickering monitor, that suggests too fast of a brightness modulation. What I was seeing was his face get lighter in a second or two, then darker in a second or two, then lighter, then darker. This happened acrossed at least 10-15 seconds of video.

Originally posted by GHafer
So, Pete; what did Sony offer to do for you? Did they at least pay for the shipping back to Loredo? Did they promise a quick turn-around?

Gary

I'm the good cop, my wife is the bad cop and since she was able to hear and see these defects, she was really fired up. Normally, I'm the only one noticing the stupid little things wrong with electronics and she's quite happy - not this time.

So she called them yesterday morning and they, at first, suggested that UPS broke it. Not a chance since the box was improperly packed (the cardboard insert was upside-down! Man, that is a dumb mistake and one could easily feel the projector shaking back and forth inside). She insisted that it was the service centers mistake and definately not UPS.
She was deferred to someone else and they spoke for 45 minutes.
The result:
they immediately emailed a return label and UPS picked the unit up 1 hour later
They will receive the unit today and inspect it. They have agreed to completely replace the unit, pending an inspection. Frankly, considering the hassle and amount of problems we have seen with this $3K product, we will not accept a repair of the unit. They have verbally agreed to this solution.

Follow through on their part, in my mind, makes the difference between a good product vendor and a waste of time.

they are 50% of the way to being a good electronics company, in my opinion.
If they do the right thing, I'll buy again from them. If not, they're off the list.
Reputation is everything and I'm always willing to give someone a chance, but they better make it right.

It is too late to return this to the seller, so that is not an option.

Originally posted by reaper
I believe I have read in this very thread that the iris response time is not quick enough to adjust for every frame of video. Therefore you may see some lag. Some people mentioned noticing it in the past. But, I had been looking for this behaviour and never saw it myself until that night. It was really bad... it looked as though the actor was standing in front of a flickering monitor. It *was* the matrix, so perhaps that's is exactly what was happening. But Pete seems to have confirmed that he noticed it elsewhere.
I should add that although I can see the image brightness shift when changing test patterns on Avia, I have never been distracted by it when watching a movie, either before or after the service.

I don't believe entering the Factory menu would void the warranty. I opened it several times before sending mine for service and they never said anything. You might want to start reading the tweak thread around this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5042990). It contains some discussion of the iris settings.

I tried playing with the Iris settings again last night. The effects are interesting but I'm not really sure I understand what they are doing. I was viewing the Avia test pattern for setting black level which includes the gray steps. As I changed the settings not only could I see the brightness change, I could also see a color shift. This is something Sony really needs to address in future PJs with the Auto Iris, it should not change the color as it opens and closes. It did seem that if I dropped the Close Reg setting below the default of 210 that the Iris responded faster and the image got brighter. But I didn't have time for thorough testing so left it at the default.

In the tweak thread several people reported different default values for Iris open and close. So once again this seems to be something that Sony is setting on a unit by unit basis. It makes me wonder if they have some process for optimizing these settings at the factory, but they are not being readjusted after service even though they should be.

Originally posted by masterpasser
No way am I releasing my pj to any service centre-unless I have a break down.
Some horror stories reported here -I'm living with the capabilities of this pj by VGA input and a DVI to VGA converter .I am very happy with it's performance.
No more meddling , I'm just going to watch movies from now on.

What adaptor are you using?

Glad to see some people using my recomendation!

Originally posted by SOWK
What adaptor are you using?

Glad to see some people using my recomendation!

As you recommended ,the Dtrovision DVI to VGA converter -I had it shipped to Perth , Australia and it works perfectly.
Was surprised how small it is though.
But doing the job as you correctly advised.

When is the next VPL-HS?? coming out? Any word yet?

By the way, why was this thread "un-sticked" along with the Panny AE700? Do the moderators know something new is coming soon and are preempting an announcement?

Ok Guys....I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new projector. I have been leaning towards the Sony but lately this thread has concerned me.

For those in my shoes or have already purchased the Sony, would you get the Sony again or would you save some money on the Panny 700?

Or wait a few months for some new choices.....argh, what a hobby.

Thx
Jim

Ok Guys....I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new projector. I have been leaning towards the Sony but lately this thread has concerned me.

For those in my shoes or have already purchased the Sony, would you get the Sony again or would you save some money on the Panny 700?

Or wait a few months for some new choices.....argh, what a hobby.

Thx
Jim

After loads of research i was also almost finally going for the HS51/50. Until i read about the BenQ PE7700. Hope to find a place where i can see them both, or find some reviews from peaple that did see them.
So, still nog image on my screen at the moment :confused: .

See my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5522061#post5522061)

Piip

Ok Guys....I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new projector. I have been leaning towards the Sony but lately this thread has concerned me.

For those in my shoes or have already purchased the Sony, would you get the Sony again or would you save some money on the Panny 700?

Or wait a few months for some new choices.....argh, what a hobby.

Thx
Jim

The HS-51 was and still is my top choice among DLP alternatives.

For those folks who can manage single chip DLP color wheel artifacts, there are marginally better DLP alternatives to the HS-51. However, having owned the benchmark setting NEC HT1000 for a couple of years, the Sony HS-51 is not a disappointment. Rather it has been a very reasonable compromise to avoid the single chip DLP technology.

For those that can wait just a couple of months, Cedia almost always has interesting new products worth considering.

Thanks guys. Think i'm going to find a nice dealer and order my HS50 :).

I've been looking at buying the HS51. I've have read that some recommend adding the DVDO Iscan HD+ scaler. I've also read though the iscan HD+ forums and I'm confused. If I scale everything to 1080i they say the HD+ used bob and weave which is not good. On the other hand if I scale to 720p there are issues with the HS51 cropping 720p? Can anyone set me staight?

I will be using the following sources:

DirecTv HD Tivo
DVD (still don't know which yet)
HTPC
XBox

With the sources I have where is the Iscan HD+ going to help me with the HS51?

Thanks, JG

Howdy JG....I use the Lumagen HDP with my HS51 and HD Tivo and it works great. I can't give you the technical breakdown of the product but there's a lot of info in the video processor forum and some in this thread about the Lumagens. They are constantly tweeking the software, which is easily downloadable, to improve the picture quality.

Thought I'd let the HS51 thread readers know, I purchased my Sony HS51 today! Can't wait to get this baby! :) Great chatting with you all about the ups and downs of this unit...

reaper

The price point/ WAF at long last permitted a purchase. I received the HS-51 yesterday.

I've been with this thread from post #1, Thanks to all for educating me!

I'm starting with a 110' Dalite Video Spectra, driven by a SIR-T165, and HTPC, DVP-CX777ES and will connect via Input A, and DVI/HDHI.

For those that can wait just a couple of months, Cedia almost always has interesting new products worth considering.

Don't think you are going to see anything new from Sony this year on the LCD front. Rumor has it they will wait another year to introduce their new LCD PJs with higher CR panels in fall of 06.

I'm also just about ready to plunk down my cash for this great PJ.

I currently have a:

Stewart firehawk 100' HD eletriscreen, recently installed in my movie room..

DVDO HD+ scaler ready to push a great image to my new screen..

And i'm thinking of getting an SDI capable DVD player, is this worth all the hoopla?

I want this PJ project to be awsome, it will be a big step for me and I want this to last at least 5 years, before getting a better PJ.

I also heard that CEDIA and other shows are the place where new PJs are shown.. Sony seemed to pump a new one out every 8 months when they were making the first LCD HS models..

2 cents,
Fabian.

So, back on page 140 or 141, I mentioned problems I had with a broken returned shipment from Sony service in Laredo.

This has been resolved in a very timely fashion. The old projector was received this past Monday and it was evaluated as being broken. They sent out a new projector to replace the old one. I hooked it up last night and set it up with some settings I had pulled from this thread (that I believe Kris Deering had posted).

There is one person in Laredo responsible for this excellent service and one person only (as far as I can tell). That person was named "Berenice" (please forgive me if I've mispelled her formal name). It took many, very persistant and long phone calls, thanks to my wife for her diligence.

Bottom line, the unit looks great and yes, I'd buy the HS51 again, although I say that now that I have a unit with the proper firmware!!!!
It is a beautiful image compared to other things I saw at CEDIA last year for the same price point. I'm not a big fan of DLP, although it does look very good in most cases.

My suggestions for working with Laredo for service:
1. Don't let them give you vague answers. If they can't tell you the answer, tell them you'll wait on the phone for them to get it.
Their system is a joke.
Receiving takes days.
The techs take days (don't talk to the techs, they're too busy and can't guarantee anything related to the receiving, shipping, or quality folks)
Quality can take days.
Shipping might take days.
For example:
"UPS shows they dropped off my projector to you on Friday, can you please tell me how long you'll have it?:
Answer from them, " we have no record of your unit being in our facility, but I can check and get back to you."
I'd say there is only a 1 in 5 chance of that happening.
Of course, I'd say thats better than any chance at any other service center of any kind, too.

Next conversation:
"We have your unit, it should be done in a few days"
A few days later:
"Sorry, your unit isn't done and the tech has a note that he wants to talk to you?"
"Why didn't the tech just call me then?"
"I'll go get the tech"
"Sir, when you say the lens shift mechanism is moving around, what do you mean?"
"I mean it's moving around from the position I left it in"
"Ok, we can check that out and you should have it back by Wednesday. Maybe Thursday. Well, it might actually be Friday".
etc...
again, don't ask the techs for timelines, they don't control them.


2. Never wait for them to call you back. No one is interested in getting you info about your stuff except for you, so YOU should be the one calling them if you feel they owe you information. I never got a straight answer to my one question, which is why I felt the need to call again and again. Then came the returned broken unit that required return shipment and replacement for a new unit that we really had to push really hard for.

For the record, all of my phone calls were for 1 thing and 1 thing only.
"When will you start working on my projector and how long will it take?"

My boss asks me this all the time - it's a pretty normal question and a fairly simply answer to give. For $3K and a high-tech piece of equipment like this, I would expect that would be fairly normal to expect from a customer as well and a good answer should be available every time.

For the record, I own the new OPPO DVD player and use the HS51 on a high-quality Menard's Parkland Plastic cut-to-fit 95-or-so" screen.
All of my OPPO settings were default.
My settings for the HS51 were the same as what Kris Deering suggested, but my brightness setting had to be moved up to 70 (from Kris's setting of 55) in order to see the pluge properly in the Avia brightness patterns. My wife said she thought it was right at 65, but I chose 70 - perhaps my eyes are burned out from coding RTL all day.

anyway, I'm still giving the HS51 a huge thumbs up for the $.

good luck,
Pete

I can feel your pain ..

However, if I get a bad projector out of the gate, it's going back.. I'm not dealing with some lamo repair center where you have to walk their lackies through the entire process.

I called my local sales rep [with showroom and stock], they are just up the road so before taking delivery, they are gonna let me inspect it. If it is screwed up, they can take it up with Sony, I'll just take the next unit in line.

Fabian.

What setting do you guys use for Hue? I had to put mine to max to get a good picture. The rest are the settings suggested previously in this thread.

Thought I'd let the HS51 thread readers know, I purchased my Sony HS51 today! Can't wait to get this baby! :) Great chatting with you all about the ups and downs of this unit...

reaper

You will love it. I received mine 10 days ago and have it set up with a Denon 3910 direct via HDMI at 720p for DVD and component for Satellite. The SAT is a DISH 811 HD receiver set for 720p. I am using a Stewart StudioTek 130 screen and all is VERY well!! :D

What is the largest screen size anyone uses with the HS51.

I am looking for a non-DLP projector to replace my old Hitachi 5500, and it seems my options are limited.... but perhaps Sony is my answer... you tell me...

My DIY screen is 138"x78" (16x9 158"diag)
My room is 25'x13'x9' and I use most of the room for the throw... roughly 23.5'
Big, I know, but that's how I like it.
The room is relatively light controlled. There are windows, but I have thick drapes to cover them.

Do you think the Sony will be bright enough?
Any suggestions?

-Riz

Just received my projector back from Laredo on Tuesday and, after a few days of viewing, everything looks fine. (I haven't tried the 720p yet because my source component won't arrive until next week.) The projector was packed firmly in the styrofoam and wrapped in plastic; it also came back with a huge hole in the Sony box, but no damage inside.

The invoice says there were "parts replaced" (though none were specified) and that an air filter was installed; I have only 200 hours on the projector.

Gary

Thought I'd let the HS51 thread readers know, I purchased my Sony HS51 today! Can't wait to get this baby! :) Great chatting with you all about the ups and downs of this unit...

reaper
congrats reaper! i bought mine a couple of months ago, but am finally setting up my HT this week.

My DIY screen is 138"x78" (16x9 158"diag)-Riz

Thats a 75 sq ft screen, and DIY so a gain of ~ 1.0. To get the minimum 12 Ftl you need 900 calibrated lumens.
The new Canon SX50 is your best bet for < $5K.

What setting do you guys use for Hue? I had to put mine to max to get a good picture. The rest are the settings suggested previously in this thread.
This does not sound normal. I would guess that something is wrong with your source, cable, projectors, or other settings. I have used Avia to set the Hue with several sources and connections, and it was always close to 50 (default middle setting). It was never below 45 or above 55. My best guess would be a bad or improperly connected component cable.

It might help if you could provide more details. What is the source? What type of cable/connection? What are your other settings? Have you checked to make sure RCP is Off?

This does not sound normal. I would guess that something is wrong with your source, cable, projectors, or other settings. I have used Avia to set the Hue with several sources and connections, and it was always close to 50 (default middle setting). It was never below 45 or above 55. My best guess would be a bad or improperly connected component cable.



Bullseye! Sometimes the simplest solution is the answer. I had the red and blue component cables plugged in reverse. It sets up perfectly on 50 now. Thanks for your help!