Audiorevolution.com just up dated there website with there monthly reviews and one of the reviews is for the HS51. It's a good review you should check it out, one part got my interest thought.

"With “auto iris” engaged, the 3 -1366 x 768 LCD panels (erroneously noted as 1280 x 720 in the manual) can produce a contrast ratio of 3129 ANSI Lumens."

"I was particularly impressed and surprised that the HS-51 was able to easily sync with my Apple G4 computer’s video card, creating a wide screen desktop resolution of 1280 x 768 WXGA, a vast improvement over the previously crippled operating systems found in so many wide screen projectors."

"Sony’s choice to continue using a 1366 x 768 LCD panel to increase actual resolution with 1080i sources by 6.7 percent over the equivalent DLP 1280 x 720 engine must be commended. Even the untrained eye could see the differences."

http://www.avrev.com/equip/sonyhs51/

With “auto iris” engaged, the 3 -1366 x 768 LCD panels (erroneously noted as 1280 x 720 in the manual) can produce a contrast ratio of 3129 ANSI Lumens.
Huh? I thought we had this discussion way back in this thread and several people (including me) verified that the HS-51 only displays 1280x720 pixels. There was some debate about whether they are really larger panels that are masked, but I don't remember anyone proving that they could display more than 1280x720 pixels. With my PC and HS-51, I am clearly getting 1x1 pixel mapping at 1280x720 and the image seems to fill the panels. Unless Sony has made a dramatic change in newer units, I don't believe these claims are correct. You can feed the HS-51 a variety of resolutions using a PC and it will display them, but that does not mean it has that many pixels.

The review also complains about the blanking at 720p and mentions nothing about the firmware update. Obviously, the reviewer is in the dark about a few things.

I received my HS51 yesterday at 6:26PM! Whoo Hooo!!!!!!!

I immediately placed it into my truck and headed to a friends house for a Halo2 Gaming Event with 5 guys, 2 HS51s and lots of snacks, beer and explosions! Awesome experience. Love the unit so much. I was up till 1:00am playing Halo2 and Ninja Gaiden last night. The image looks outstanding in a darkened room.

I have confirmed via sony.com that I have th firmware update on my unit. I haven't noticed anything wrong with it with a possible minor exception of some pinkish tint in the lower half of the screen. But I am not sure it's a real problem and I was using maxmimum lense shift in both directions when I saw that.

Overall, intense. Cannot wait to finish the room up. I'm a happy (and slightly tired) man today.

reaper

What is the best way to connect an HTPC to this projector?

I have MCE 2005. Would it be best to feed the projector a 1080 (i or p?) signal from the HTPC via a DVI-HDMI cable?

Thanks!

What is the best way to connect an HTPC to this projector?

I have MCE 2005. Would it be best to feed the projector a 1080 (i or p?) signal from the HTPC via a DVI-HDMI cable?

Thanks!

I use a 30ft VGA cable a get an excellent 1:1 image using 720p with an ATI X800.

Many people swear by the VGA connection. So, you may wish to try that coming from your HTPC. You should probably also simply send it 1280x720. But I'm not HTPC expert... so let's see what the others think.

reap

What is the best way to connect an HTPC to this projector?
I would also vote for using a VGA to Input A in computer mode. This is the only way anyone has found to get 1:1 pixel mapping and a sharp, clear desktop using HTPC. You need to set your PC to a 1280x720 resolution, then tweak the PJ settings. See this post in the tweaks thread for more details on getting 1:1 pixel mapping.

http://img20.echo.cx/img20/8185/proj00012cx.th.jpg (http://img20.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00012cx.jpg)

http://img300.echo.cx/img300/2606/proj00029yg.th.jpg (http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00029yg.jpg)

http://img300.echo.cx/img300/9562/proj00034ny.th.jpg (http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00034ny.jpg)

http://img20.echo.cx/img20/8185/proj00012cx.th.jpg (http://img20.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00012cx.jpg)

http://img300.echo.cx/img300/2606/proj00029yg.th.jpg (http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00029yg.jpg)

http://img300.echo.cx/img300/9562/proj00034ny.th.jpg (http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=proj00034ny.jpg)

Please tell me the projector is not really that dark. Even on my old 10HT the pics for HALO2 are much brighter than that. I guess this might be related to the digital camera?

My projector is broken. If I try to zoom or focus I can move the entire lens assembly up, down, left or right about 1/4 inch either way. The projector is ceiling mounted and when I would go turn it on the image would be off center and need to be readjusted. I didn't know what it was at first buy maybe thought it had something to do with the lens shift. I also need the firmware update. So where should I send it to get fixed?

Thanks,

Pissed off HS-51 owner (right now anyways)

My projector is broken. If I try to zoom or focus I can move the entire lens assembly up, down, left or right about 1/4 inch either way. The projector is ceiling mounted and when I would go turn it on the image would be off center and need to be readjusted. I didn't know what it was at first buy maybe thought it had something to do with the lens shift. I also need the firmware update. So where should I send it to get fixed?

Thanks,

Pissed off HS-51 owner (right now anyways)

try this site: It gets you started.

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl_id=3829&news_id=67

Friar

I felt very impressed with the brightness last night... even in cinema mode. It looked fantastic! I think the images are dark because of the camera settings.

reaper

2intense:

I don't think your projector is broken. I believe the play in your lens is pretty standard. There are many posts about this. If you have your projector ceiling mounted, make sure that when you adjust the lens, pull it down to it's lowest position, and it should not drift from there.

If you send it in for the firmware update, you can ask them to tighten up the lens shift mechanism. However, a few people who have done this have been unhappy with the results.

Pip

2intense:

I don't think your projector is broken. I believe the play in your lens is pretty standard. There are many posts about this. If you have your projector ceiling mounted, make sure that when you adjust the lens, pull it down to it's lowest position, and it should not drift from there.

If you send it in for the firmware update, you can ask them to tighten up the lens shift mechanism. However, a few people who have done this have been unhappy with the results.

Pip

Unhappy with the firmware update or tightening the lens shift?

try this site: It gets you started.

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl_id=3829&news_id=67

Friar

Well thanks. The site says my projector needs the update. I guess I already knew that though. Anyways I sent in my request.

Thanks

Congrats reaper! Mine is arriving at the end of the week :D

Unhappy with the tightening of the lens shift. I think there were some complaints that there was no change, and also complaints that the mechanism became too stiff and balky.

You'll need to do a search to find out more, althought it's no fun searching this gigantic thread.

Pip

Reaper, sounds like your unit has the firmware fix and the new panel housing right out of the box. Do you remember the serial number where these fixes are incorporated? I don't want to get stuck with an early unit.

Reaper,

Congrats on getting your projector!

Thanks for the congrats guys. It definitely has the firmware update. I checked on the web page and verified it. I have not personally sent it a high def source to verify yet, though. I don't think Sony ever announced a specific serial number and said, "All HS51s after this number are fixed." Rather, they created a web page and asked users to type their number in to find out the answer. You can get to it by going to sony.com and clicking on service and support and then doing a search for HS51.

I plan to paint the basement this weekend. Not much longer before I can get a real screen set up in there and start using this unit for real. Shining it on a wall covered in stenciled leaves just is beneath this wonderful unit.

reaper

Guys, does this monster thread have a summary page anywhere? :)

While explaining to the wife why I was going to be covering part of our basement in black material in preparation for a $1000 projector, she said "Why dont you just get that Sony one you talked about". The Sony one being the 51 of course.

While I hadn't really considered more than doubling my budget, I could..if I felt a compelling need to. The reason I'd consider the HS51 is primarly for its 720p resolution and its 6000:1 contrast ratio. But there is no perfect machine....

From what I've read so far in these HS51 threads, the Sonys 6000:1 CR is attributed to that auto-iris, which for dark movies can be a problem as it constantly tries to adjust itself?? Is this true?

Also, apparrantly there are some quality control issues going on, and no digital pixel mapping from HTPC's?? This wouldn't really affect me, as I'll be running component to the unit most likely.

Are there any other major caveats I should be aware of? Admittedly, I do try to buy bang-for-the-buck, and the Sony isn't really in that range yet. It needs to be priced around where the Z3's and Pannys are right now to truly make it a "DLP-crushing Bargain"....but since I am in the position to spend a few bucks, I wanted to get the lowdown on this projector from some of you owners who've lived with them now for awhile.

IS the super Contrast Ratio all its cracked up to be? My projector would be mounted in a room with a low ceiling...I'd be throwing a 100" diagonal and while its a walkout basement, with heavy drapes I have near total light control (I watch my 65" set in near darkness at any hour of the day, basically). I'll be sitting about 13 feet back from the screen at the closest, and 17 feet back at the furthest.

Premature bulb aging? Vertical banding? Problems with the auto-iris functioning?
This thread is just too long to be helpful right now.....can anyone give me the "nutshell" pros/cons on this unit?

Many thanks guys

From what I've read so far in these HS51 threads, the Sonys 6000:1 CR is attributed to that auto-iris, which for dark movies can be a problem as it constantly tries to adjust itself?? Is this true?

I have only noticed the iris in extreme transitions between a really bright scene and a really dark one. Otherwise I never notice it at all when watching. It is easy to spot with test patterns and such, but movies and general viewing are fine.

It needs to be priced around where the Z3's and Pannys are right now to truly make it a "DLP-crushing Bargain"....but since I am in the position to spend a few bucks, I wanted to get the lowdown on this projector from some of you owners who've lived with them now for awhile.

Think again. While the DLP units offer better ANSI contrast, the HS51 holds it own against the HD2+ DC3 PJs I've seen just fine. And at a fraction of the cost. The Z3 and AE700 don't hold a candle to this.

IS the super Contrast Ratio all its cracked up to be? My projector would be mounted in a room with a low ceiling...I'd be throwing a 100" diagonal and while its a walkout basement, with heavy drapes I have near total light control (I watch my 65" set in near darkness at any hour of the day, basically). I'll be sitting about 13 feet back from the screen at the closest, and 17 feet back at the furthest.

You should have a great image with that type of setup. The contrast ratio is incredible with this PJ if calibrated correctly. That is the trick though, as it isn't that easy with the iris in play.

I haven't had any issues with vertical banding or FPN and I have owned both the new and older versions of the PJ. Currently I have the new version with both SD and HD sources all coming in via HDMI and the image is impeccable. I am getting about 100:1 ANSI contrast in my room during the day (probably a bit more at night since my room is only about 96% light controlled) and just a touch under 6000:1 On/Off contrast calibrated. I am using a 78" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 130 and I have about 18 Ft Lamberts in the main seating position 10' back.

Kris,

Would you wait for CEDIA to see what else might be coming in the LCD world? I have a VW10HT that has worn out its welcome, but I am willing to wait if there could be some significant developments (D5?) I realize if there's something at CEDIA worth waiting for, it probably means another 6 months from then that it would actually be available.

I just ordered my HS51 and can't wait to hook it up!

Fabian.

Pros:

Great Contrast
Beautiful colors
Virtually no vertical banding (except for a minor few users)
Good pixel alignment (except for a minor few users)

Cons:

Some find it slightly dim. Need a light controlled env.
Pricey (compared to AE700/Z3 but great deal for the quality of this unit)
1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI not currently achievable
Screendoor more visible than AE700

Reccs:

Don't: Buy a unit pre-fix. You will regret the experience of dealing with Laredo.
Do: Consider the lack of rainbow artifacts and VB when making a decision

Info:

Check if you need a firmware update here:
http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

Quick question...

Configure Grey Scale with Iris AUTO / ON / or OFF?


-SOWK

Don't: Buy a unit pre-fix. You will regret the experience of dealing with Laredo.


Only one problem with that...

If sony releases another fix, 1:1 HDMI, You will have to send it in anyway.

:(

Thanks Reap......you just saved me about 3 hours of browsing :)

Only one problem with that...

If sony releases another fix, 1:1 HDMI, You will have to send it in anyway.

:(

Uhhh, I don't think so. I certainly appreciate all your guy's efforts to get the best picture possible. But frankly, there's no way in hell I'd send it off to Laredo just to get 1:1 pixel mapping over hdmi. The blanking issue would have been enough to make me unhappy with the unit. But 1:1.... not a big deal for me. I'd like to have it, but not enough to risk the problems described in this thread.

reap

Calibrate with the Iris ON.

As for waiting until CEDIA. That is your call. That is one of those vicious circle questions and one could wait for forever for the next best thing. There is a chance that we'll see D5 based panels at CEDIA and even possibly 1080P LCD PJs. I don't think you'll see the latter at this price point though. The D5 may be interesting but I don't think we'll see the same contrast ratios unless someone does one with a dynamic iris. Sony won't have a new LCD PJ though.

As for this PJ being pricey, I still beg to differ. Considering what you get for the money this is a steal in my opinion. Nothing at its price range even comes close in my opinion.

I agree with your pricey thoughts. I believe it is great for the money as well. I'll edit my summary...

Don't: Buy a unit pre-fix. You will regret the experience of dealing with Laredo.
I'm considering switching to the HS51 from my Panny AE700U. What does "pre-fix" mean? Get unit with latest firmware? How do I know ordering online that I'll get a post-fix unit? Thanks.

Calibrate with the Iris ON.
.
I thought it is Iris-AUTO so you will account for the Iris adjustments as you change the patterns?

You said you had compared the HS 51 to the DC3 DLP. Which ones, and what was your overall impression?

Oops, sorry I meant AUTO.

I have looked at the H79 calibrated. The H79 has deeper blacks, but not by a lot. The H79 also has better ANSI contrast, but that is so room dependent I doubt most would not notice. Unfortunately the H79 also only has DVI inputs so it is 8 bit, which shows banding. I am also very sensitive to rainbows.

I have also looked at the Samsung DLP PJ by Joe Kane and the Marantz S3, and I would keep my HS51 over those anyday.

Cons:
Some find it slightly dim. Need a light controlled env.
Pricey (compared to AE700/Z3 but great deal for the quality of this unit)
1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI not currently achievable
You might want to add "screen door visible under 2.0 screen widths" to the cons. The only issue with the HS-51 that I notice frequently since I sit at 1.5 screen widths and switched from a CRT PJ which was very smooth. A slight defocus makes it tolerable, but every once it a while it jumps out at me. Some have reported that an IMX lens works well to reduce it, but I haven't tried one yet. But like DLP rainbows, the tolerance for screen door seems to depend on the person, so you must see one for yourself to tell if it will bother you.

I'm considering switching to the HS51 from my Panny AE700U. What does "pre-fix" mean? Get unit with latest firmware? How do I know ordering online that I'll get a post-fix unit? Thanks.

Get the latest version with the firmware update. In case you are worried you might be getting an old unit, acquire the serial number from the seller and check it on Sony's service site:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

reaper

You're right. I added that the screen door is more visible than the AE700 to the con list.

Is Sony going to offer a 1:1 HDMI fix? If so I'll just wait till then. I'm really not worried about it now I guess seeing I use VGA from my HTPC to get 1:1. It would be nice though to go all digital and use the HDMI input.

Personally I don't think 1:1 is capable with this PJ since I still firmly believe that this PJ uses a 1366x768 panel. I know some VGA users would disagree but I'll stand firm. It makes perfect sense when you look at the history of Sony and this PJ.

I am sitting 10' back from a 76" diagonal screen and I have absolutely no screendoor with the new version of the PJ.

Also to add, the new PJ can achieve a higher contrast ratio then the old version. Sony is using a completely different video board. The new one can get very close to 6K:1 CR while the older one tops out in the 3K range calibrated. I have tested both and each has its advantages but I went back to the new version for the increase contrast ratios. I also didn't like having to adjust the zoom with different resolutions.

Also to add, the new PJ can achieve a higher contrast ratio then the old version. Sony is using a completely different video board.


When did Sony start switching the Video boards, and how can you tell what board you have? Also From what dated did they start this?

Personally I don't think 1:1 is capable with this PJ since I still firmly believe that this PJ uses a 1366x768 panel. I know some VGA users would disagree but I'll stand firm.


Kris with all you tech Knoweldge please tell me you know someone with a good laptop...

Plug it in with the dreaded VGA, go to windows display properties, send out a signal at

1280X720 will be sharp and 1:1

Then use like power strip to send out 1366X768, (what would probbably happen is, it would not reconize the mode and smoosh it into a 1024X768 4X3 window)

You will Immediately know the panels are only 1280X720.

I truly listen to most everything that you write, but this is very easy to test, and I can tell you I have had plenty of time to test the different resolutions and can confirm that the Sony is only 1280X720.

I talked with the tech at Sony and he said that the firmware change that fixed the blanking is not really firmware but an entire video board swap out. So if you have one of the new PJs with the blanking fixed, you have the new board.

So by your ration why was I getting perfect 1:1 via HDMI with the old firmware with 3% overscan at the most and still had all that blanking?? It doesn't make any sense. Just because the PJ doesn't accept the native resolution doesn't mean that it isn't that resolution.

This PJ is truly a paradox isn't it.

This PJ is truly a paradox isn't it.
Have you seen the Yamaha DX 1200? According to the WSR review it also has blanking during a 720p 1:1 input.


Except for some blanking along the edges of the frame, the DPX-1200 produces a spatially “pixel perfect” image when its HDMI input is driven by 720p digital video signals. When the Sharpness control is off, each visible pixel from the source is precisely mapped to a single projector pixel, without scaling or edge enhancement. There is no edge outlining on horizontal or vertical lines, which are displayed with precisely the pixel widths or thickness produced by the source. The single pixel vertical lines within the high frequency multiburst pattern are rendered as single pixel lines with full contrast. However, there are two blank pixel columns (vertical lines) on both the left and right sides of the screen, and three blank pixel rows (horizontal lines) at the bottom of the screen. There are no horizontal or vertical position adjustments for HDMI (or DVI) signals to make the blank pixels visible.

3 pixel lines are nothing. If you were to pixel crop say 8 lines on each side of the image, you would still end up with LESS THEN 0% overscan. But to come up with 3-4% of overscan with blanking is an entirely different matter. That is A LOT of pixels being cropped.

This PJ is truly a paradox isn't it.

Kris...

I like to think of the HS-51 as a riddle wrapped inside of an enigma.

:D

Is sony gonna make this projector remotly firmware upgradable?

I mean, com'on this thing has an RJ-45 jack and is web addressable.. Seems like a logical dirrection.

F.

Personally I don't think 1:1 is capable with this PJ since I still firmly believe that this PJ uses a 1366x768 panel. I know some VGA users would disagree but I'll stand firm. It makes perfect sense when you look at the history of Sony and this PJ.

Kris

Have you read the review of the HS51 Audiorevolution.com? the reviewer said

"With “auto iris” engaged, the 3 -1366 x 768 LCD panels (erroneously noted as 1280 x 720 in the manual) can produce a contrast ratio of 3129 ANSI Lumens."

"I was particularly impressed and surprised that the HS-51 was able to easily sync with my Apple G4 computer’s video card, creating a wide screen desktop resolution of 1280 x 768 WXGA, a vast improvement over the previously crippled operating systems found in so many wide screen projectors. It is amazingly easy to surf the web in widescreen projection glory."

"Sony’s choice to continue using a 1366 x 768 LCD panel to increase actual resolution with 1080i sources by 6.7 percent over the equivalent DLP 1280 x 720 engine must be commended. Even the untrained eye could see the differences."

http://www.avrev.com/equip/sonyhs51/index.html


There review of the HS51 supports your theory of the HS51 having 1366 X 768 panels.

I actually talked to a Sony engineer at CES who indicated that Sony had decided to move to the new 1280 x 720 resolution for the HS51 to enable a pixel perfect 720p mapping used in HDTV standard formats.

F.

Well take that with a grain of salt. I am sure most Sony video engineers would be able to test that application and would notice right away that this wasn't the case.

I don't have the stamina to browse through this entire thread, so I'm hoping some of the many experts on this thread can comment on this one.

I have a room with white walls but I'll be shutting out any external light. The screen will be a 82" (diagonal) Stewart. Am I correct in assuming that the Studiotek would not be optimal for these conditions (with the white walls reflecting the light back onto the screen) and that the Grayhawk or Firehawk would be much better suited in this case?

The HS 50 will be ceiling mounted. Would you recommend a Grayhawk or a Firehawk in this case? Having the relatively "small" screen size in mind, is there any chance that the Firehawk will be too bright?

Using Carlton Bale's calculator and assuming the HS 50 puts out 400 ANSI lumens (is this a fair assumption?) I get ~ 27 foot lamberts which is a bit on the high side I guess. On the other hand, that leaves some room for the bulb dimming with time.

Any thoughts?

Grayhawk RS may be a nice option, but the white walls are still going to play a part in overall contrast ratio. The darker you can get a room the better.

As for foot lamberts, those numbers are probably based on an uncalibrated output. You'll probably realistically get in the teens. You have to give up brightness to achieve higher contrast most of the time.

First I would like to appologize if it seems like I'm hijacking the thread for discussing screen material instead of the HS 50. The reason I'm posting my questions here is that it specifically relates to optimum screen material for the HS 50/51 in viewing conditions such as mine (room with light colored walls).

Grayhawk RS may be a nice option, but the white walls are still going to play a part in overall contrast ratio. The darker you can get a room the better.

May I ask why you (if I understand you correctly) recommend the Grayhawk RS over the Firehawk?

The Firehawk increases brightness but is still a grey screen thus black level is improved (over a white screen). Shouldn't the Firehawk be a better choice in a viewing environment where there is some ambient light from the light colored walls?

As for foot lamberts, those numbers are probably based on an uncalibrated output. You'll probably realistically get in the teens. You have to give up brightness to achieve higher contrast most of the time.

The value of 400 ANSI lumens I got from the Widescreen Review article. You think it would be significantly lower in order to compensate for the ambient light even if using a screen such as the Firehawk?

Don't worry about black levels, the Sony's are great. And don't worry about the screen being too bright - it won't be. The Sony is not a bright projector.

What you may need to worry about is off axis light rejection. This is somewhat dependent on how close your walls and ceiling are to the edges of the screen.

I don't know much about the Grayhawk RS, but from my reading I think the Firehawk is better at ambient light rejection than the original Grayhawk. Another screen which is excellent at ambient light rejection is the DaLite High Power. If you can afford it, and you are using a fixed screen, the new Sony screen should block all ambient light.

By the way, if you can paint your walls any color darker than pure white, it will help significantly. You can get a big improvement without resorting to very dark wall colors. A 50% gray card still looks like a fairly light color, but it is reflecting only half the light of a pure white card.

I think you may get better information in the screens forum. What you are looking for is the best screen for your room - not really the best screen for this projector. The only projector specific consideration is brightess. As an HS51 owner I would advise you that even with your small screen size, I don't think any screen will be too bright.

This thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546606) may be very helpful.

Pip

Hello everyone. I have been following this thread for a long time but I couldn't find any information about the upgraded HS50 here in Canada.

Compared to the HS51, he HS50 serial numbers seem to be completely different (I saw one HS50 last week and the SN was S01-2001499-B). So it seems I cannot trust the SN to know if the unit is updated or not.

I have called Sony Canada twice. They know absolutely nothing about the blanking issue. Since they have no information about it, they pretend that maybe the problem was with the HS51 only and that all the HS50 were OK from the beginning. I seriously doubt that.... :(

My conclusion is that either all of the canadian units are "bad" ones, or maybe some of them have been fixed starting from an unknown build date and serial number.

Does anyone have any information about an updated HS50 in Canada? Is there a way to know if an unit is fixed for 720p or not (before actually buying and trying it...) ? I thought about checking the ROM version, but that implies I buy the projector and open the box...Does anybody here in canada own a fixed unit? If so it would be kind to tell me how you know that and what serial number it is...


I will certainly keep everyone informed if I get any new information from Sony Canada or my reseller.

I am considering buying an HS51 for my a home theater that I am beginning to build. The room is 18-1/2' by 13-1/2'. I would like to put it in a 100" 16:9 screen. I would also like to have two rows of three seats each. I can put one row at about 12-1/2' ( 1.7 x screen width) from the screen and a second row about 16-1/2' (2.2 x screen width) back. The room will be completely light controlled. I went to a dealers showroom and thought that the screen door effect was quite noticeable on large white objects. The picture also seemed quite dark. The door was open to the rest of the store and the choice of material was quite bad. Their $10,000 Runco DLP also looked quite dark to me. I found the SDE to be bothersome and do not want to have that in my new home theater. I have read that one should sit back 2.0 to avoid SDE with this projector and other posts and articles that say that 1.5 x is just fine. Can anyone give me their experience with this? If I push the first row back to 2.0 x SW then I cannot fit a second row unless I put it right against the back wall, and it would still be tight. Should I consider a different projector that allows one to sit closer to the screen? Any suggestions? Also, I have not found any info on how best to locate the screen height off of the floor. Thanks, Rich

Personally I don't think 1:1 is capable with this PJ since I still firmly believe that this PJ uses a 1366x768 panel.

I connected my HS-51 to my HTPC using the VGA input, set the HTPC resolution to 1280x720 @ 60 Hz, and displayed a 1280x720 1-pixel alternating checkerboard bitmap at full screen resolution. I achieved perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. Each of the 921,600 pixels in the bitmap was perfectly mapped to each of the 921,600 pixels on the projector. The "screen door gaps" between pixels on the projector make this verification pretty simple. Any mis-match pixel addressing causes the black-and-white checkerboard to break down into gray noise. I'm not sure about your HS-51, but mine is definitely using 1280x720 panels -- I counted the pixels!

I connected my HS-51 to my HTPC using the VGA input, set the HTPC resolution to 1280x720 @ 60 Hz, and displayed a 1280x720 1-pixel alternating checkerboard bitmap at full screen resolution. I achieved perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. Each of the 921,600 pixels in the bitmap was perfectly mapped to each of the 921,600 pixels on the projector. The "screen door gaps" between pixels on the projector make this verification pretty simple. Any mis-match pixel addressing causes the black-and-white checkerboard to break down into gray noise. I'm not sure about your HS-51, but mine is definitely using 1280x720 panels -- I counted the pixels!


Carlton,
While the info you give is correct it still does not mean that the PJ is using 1280X720 panels. For example, I know have a JVC HX-2 D-ILA I am playing with. This PJ will do 1:1 pixel mapping perfectly with a 720p signal. Guess what though, the JVC has 1400X788 panels. I tend to support Kris's theory and really it is my theory as well. I have had conversations about this with many others. If you do a search in the archives of AVS for Sony HS-20 pixel mapping, many had these same issues with the older Sonys. I have done this and there are many threads that support the theory. What I believe is happening is Sony is doing something screwy with the timings. Anyway, do the search and see that the HS-51 is not the first Sony that had screwed up resolution and pixel mapping issues.

I connected my HS-51 to my HTPC using the VGA input, set the HTPC resolution to 1280x720 @ 60 Hz, and displayed a 1280x720 1-pixel alternating checkerboard bitmap at full screen resolution. I achieved perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. Each of the 921,600 pixels in the bitmap was perfectly mapped to each of the 921,600 pixels on the projector. The "screen door gaps" between pixels on the projector make this verification pretty simple. Any mis-match pixel addressing causes the black-and-white checkerboard to break down into gray noise. I'm not sure about your HS-51, but mine is definitely using 1280x720 panels -- I counted the pixels!

Carlton, your right, dont let this bother you. They will continue to think its larger. But its not.

I userstand what eric is saying, but if the panels where larger, then it would look like there is additional pixels that could be used, they would have to be black...

But even if they were black you would still see them, as even with black, there is light being output.

Also, with no signal you can set the back ground image to blue. And with no signal, there is no mapping or extra black boarders "not" being used.

If what Kris and Eric are writing is right, 720P would then show up 1:1 mapped but in a smaller window then the no signal screen, with extra pixels not being used. AKA they would be sent a value of 0 (AKA Black) and you would still be able to see them!

While the info you give is correct it still does not mean that the PJ is using 1280X720 panels. For example, I know have a JVC HX-2 D-ILA I am playing with. This PJ will do 1:1 pixel mapping perfectly with a 720p signal. Guess what though, the JVC has 1400X788 panels.
Can you define what you mean by 1:1 pixel mapping? To me it means that the display shows 1 and only 1 pixel for every pixel in the source. If you send a 1280x720 pixel signal to a 1400x788 panel, the only way to get 1:1 pixel mapping is to not use all the display's pixels (black border). This is certainly possible and some PJs do this, but if you don't have a black border the PJ must be scaling the image. If the HS-51 really had 1366x768 panels I would expect a black border with 1:1 pixel mapping of a 1280x720 source. But I don't see this, 1280x720 exactly fills my HS-51 display.

What source are you using? As far as I know, the only way to verify 1:1 pixel mapping is with a computer source where you know exactly what you are sending. My experience matches Carlton's. Using my HTPC, I am convinced that the panels on my HS-51 are exactly 1280x720. I guess it is possible that Sony switched panels in the newer units, but I haven't heard anyone state that they have.

I know have a JVC HX-2 D-ILA I am playing with. This PJ will do 1:1 pixel mapping perfectly with a 720p signal. Guess what though, the JVC has 1400X788 panels.

You're not only wrong on the Sony. The HX2 uses the same 4:3 1400x1050 panel as the cheaper SX21. JVC just masks the top/bottom for a 1400x788 output.

regards,

Li On

You're not only wrong on the Sony. The HX2 uses the same 4:3 1400x1050 panel as the cheaper SX21. JVC just masks the top/bottom for a 1400x788 output.

regards,

Li On

I knew this info about the JVC but thanks for the asinine reply anyway. Prove me wrong on the Sony! All speculation! Both sides. At least I call mine a theory.

My theory is Sony uses a 4kx2k panel! Unless someone break up the projector and actually count the pixel on the panel, you can't prove me wrong! :D

The FACT is the 720p HDMI withOUT the blanking (overscan with the fix) gives the SAME image size as the perfect 1:1 mapping 1280x720 VGA via a HTPC (or scaler).

NO one claim to have a bigger image size than a perfect 1:1 1280x720 VGA.

We can't prove you anything if you don't believe the FACT!

regards,

Li On

All this talk about the pixel count made me start to wonder if I could be wrong. Some reputable people are saying the panels are 1366x768. So I decided to bypass all the hand waving and try a more definitive test. My screen is exactly 72 inches wide. I projected a white background, zoomed the image to just fill the width of the screen, then counted how many pixels were in one inch. I counted 3 times just to make sure and got 18. It is pretty close to exactly 18, I could see that the grid lines overlapped the one inch marks for 6-7 inches before they started to be off. 72x18=1296 pixels wide. I didn't expect the result to be exactly 1280, but this is much closer to 1280 than 1366. 1366 would be almost exactly 19 pixels per inch, and it is definitely not. Based on the HTPC checkerboard test and this test I am convinced that my HS-51 only displays 1280x720 pixels. Maybe it has larger panels which are masked to 1280x720, but it is not displaying 1366x768.

If anyone can run the same test and come up with a number closer to 1366, let us all know. It would be interesting if Sony were shipping this PJ with two different size panels. That would explain all the confusion on this topic.

Just received my HS50 today.

When using the S-Video port there is a thin yellow line that runs vertically down the screen near the right hand side. It is quite obvious and most visible in dark scenes.

It isn't there when using HDMI.

I have the new firmware on this projector (1.02).

Anybody know what this line may be??

On my Sony VPL-HS51, the right side of my picture bends down. Anyone seen this before? One person told me that it is a problem with the lens assembly. I posted in another thread about it, but hardly anyone read it (low view count).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546982

If what Kris and Eric are writing is right, 720P would then show up 1:1 mapped but in a smaller window then the no signal screen, with extra pixels not being used. AKA they would be sent a value of 0 (AKA Black) and you would still be able to see them!

That's funny, that is exactly what it does if you have the non-updated PJ that did 1:1 via HDMI. The new one that DOESN'T do 1:1 doesn't do this but instead fills the screen because of Sony's scaling. Now isn't that telling. Funny how it makes sense when you stop putting blinders on.

That's funny, that is exactly what it does if you have the non-updated PJ that did 1:1 via HDMI. The new one that DOESN'T do 1:1 doesn't do this but instead fills the screen because of Sony's scaling. Now isn't that telling. Funny how it makes sense when you stop putting blinders on..

But Kris this is not what others are seening. I dont know were you got your Unit from, but it sounds like it is not a straight retail unit.

Was this unit a sample unit sent by Sony for you guys to test? What is the Manufacture date?

If it was a sample unit for you to review, yeah, I could see Sony sending you a Higher resolution unit so it can get a higher IQ score.

But...

I know for a fact that Mine, and two friends of mines Sony HS-51 are 1280X720 only. Yes I have tested with both VGA, and HDMI.

Btw, I think only you and byte are able to acheave 1:1 mapping thru HDMI.

Seems weird to me, and both of you came to the conclustion that the panels are Larger...

Possible reason

You have a pre retail unit, or a test sample from Sony manufactured with the larger panels.

If you know anyone else with a recently bought HS51, go over to there place, test it out. Also have you tested my Laptop example yet?

I hope you will at least try it, and not just assume it wont work.

-SOWK

What are you talking about?? The blanking issue with the original HS51 is a very well known issue and not contained to just a few of us. Anyone with a 720P test generator that fed this thing via HDMI saw the exact same thing as we did. The unit I got is right from a store, just like everyone elses.

I know for a fact that Mine, and two friends of mines Sony HS-51 are 1280X720 only. Yes I have tested with both VGA, and HDMI.

I don't know what is going on with the VGA output but personally I take everything people say with a grain of salt until I see it personally. No offense, it is just from lots of experience of hearing people say what they "know". I have not had the oppurtunity to test the VGA output yet. But I stand by my conclusions with the HDMI input as I have tested it and all of the results point to that conclusion. It makes complete sense no matter how you slice it.

Old versions of the HS51 allow 1:1 but the PJ blanks the unused pixels on the panel.
New version does not allow 1:1 since the Sony re-scales to fit the entire panel.

This is my conclusion with the HDMI input. I can't imagine it being any different with the VGA, but I will test and see. Until someone shows me a test that proves otherwise, I am sticking to that conclusion.

A few threads to digest.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3985416&highlight=hs20+11#post3985416

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=412644&highlight=hs20+11

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=406763&highlight=hs20+11

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=398326&highlight=hs20+11

Just a few but there are many more. The amazing thing to me is how the older Sonys would do 1:1 in different resolutions even though the panels were larger. Maybe that does not apply to the HS-51 at all.

awtryau89

A while ago you mentioned comparing the HS51 to higher priced DC3 DLPs. I am trying to deciede if it is worth upgrading my Hs51 to a Yamaha 1200.

Which DC3s have you compared to the HS51? Is there a significant pq improvement with the DC3s?

I've compared the 51 to the H79 which uses a DC3. On/Off contrast ratio is a bit better with my Sony but ANSI contrast is higher with the DLP. Overall blacks are a bit deeper with the DC3, but I imagine you would only notice this in a very well light controlled room. The Sony isn't that bright so light control is a must.

Old versions of the HS51 allow 1:1 but the PJ blanks the unused pixels on the panel.



I have an older unit purchased in Jan. still today without the "fix" and when I have tested the unit with HDMI for 720 1:1 mapping, I did not get a 1:1 mapping in a smaller window, it filled the screen, but had blanking around the image.

Really I dont have anyother way of discribing it!

-SOWK

What are you using as the source for the mapping? I am using a 720P test generator with the correct timings for 720P. There was already a large discussion about this earlier in the forum with Dale Adams from DVDO. I am using their test generator which I know for FACT uses the correct timings and I am getting 1:1.

What are you using as the source for the mapping? I am using a 720P test generator with the correct timings for 720P. There was already a large discussion about this earlier in the forum with Dale Adams from DVDO. I am using their test generator which I know for FACT uses the correct timings and I am getting 1:1.


I used three different devices.

For SD DVD...

Bravo D2 DVI to HDMI

For HDTV...

Samsung OTA HD tuner DVI to HDMI

For Computer...

Dell Laptop Gen 2 - DVI to HDMI

Res output 1280X720 60htz

Used test patterns, checkered, numbered, notepad text.

Hey all,

I sent my new HS51 to Laredo a while back to get the firmware updated.

I overnighted it, and they still sat on it for 2 weeks before spending a week to fix it and then overnight it back.

Anyway, upon receipt the vertical keystone correction dial did not work. Upon further review, it appears an Allen wrench, or some other device, was left inside the unit!

It is now en route to Sony (overnight courtesy of Sony) again (Laredo again too).

Just a friendly reminder to be wary of sending your HS51 in!

That's funny, that is exactly what it does if you have the non-updated PJ that did 1:1 via HDMI.
But the units with HDMI blanking did not display the entire 1280x720 image with black borders, the black borders cropped part of the 1280x720 image. This was obvious using a HTPC set to 1280x720 because part of the desktop was cropped. This is not the same as displaying the entire 1280x720 desktop in the middle of a 1366x768 panel with black borders.

Can anyone who claims their HS-51 panels are 1366x768 describe how they are came to this conclusion? What is the source and reference image being used to verify the number of pixels and 1:1 mapping? Several people have described in detail how they arrived at the conclusion the panels are 1280x720 using a HTPC, but I haven't seen any details on what tests people ran to conclude they are 1366x768.

I realize that it is still overscanning, but the overscan was only about 3-4%, which is nothing compared to how much was actually blanked out.

As for my conclusion, simple. TRUE HD test pattern generator at 720P with old PJ, LOTS OF BLANKING. Far more then just some simple pixel crop. But 1:1 mapping intact within the frame. New projector with video board update, no 1:1 mapping but now image fills the screen WITH THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF PIXEL CROPPING. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe they scaled up the same image to fill the panel, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

But the units with HDMI blanking did not display the entire 1280x720 image with black borders, the black borders cropped part of the 1280x720 image. This was obvious using a HTPC set to 1280x720 because part of the desktop was cropped. This is not the same as displaying the entire 1280x720 desktop in the middle of a 1366x768 panel with black borders.


Thank you - a much better way of saying what I did a page ago!

Kris you need to use a HTPC, not just a test generator. use any consumer device that is not your test generator and you will come to the conclusion that everyone else is.

If you can only get that result from the test generator, and not any real world HD 720P device, how accurate is you test generator?

hum....

Very accurate, hence test generator. A HD test generator is the most reliable source you can use as it assures the proper ATSC timings for HD. An HDPC is going to depend on the timings the card THINKS it should use. Sorry folks, in objective testing, you always use test generators that are proven as your reference, not your source device.

At this point it doesn't really matter if you agree with me or not. I stand behind my OPINION and will continue to believe it until someone shows me something to disprove it that is better then "my dvd player or computer".

As for my conclusion, simple. TRUE HD test pattern generator at 720P with old PJ, LOTS OF BLANKING. Far more then just some simple pixel crop. But 1:1 mapping intact within the frame. New projector with video board update, no 1:1 mapping but now image fills the screen WITH THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF PIXEL CROPPING. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe they scaled up the same image to fill the panel, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Does the test pattern you are using have corner markers or some reference so you can verify that you are seeing the entire test pattern? Is it possible to take and post a picture of this test pattern and what you see?

On my HTPC, I am using a B&W checkerboard desktop which is exactly 1280x720 pixels. It has corner markers at 1, 5 and 10 pixels from the corner. Before I got the blanking fix, it was obvious that HDMI was cropping the edges of the image, about 3% all the way around. It was not displaying the entire 1280x720 desktop in the middle of a 1366x768 panel with black borders, because the corner markers were cropped. My rough estimate was that it displayed about 1200x677 pixels in this mode.

Using the VGA input, I can tune the settings to get 1:1 mapping and use HV shift until I can see all the corner markers. When I do this the image is the same size as any other input, so it is filling the panels. Based on this, the panels must be 1280x720. As described a few posts back, I verified it by counting the pixels per inch then multiplying by the screen width.

I really don't care about debating this, I am convinced my HS-51 is 1280x720. I'm just curious why this belief that the panels are really 1366x768 keeps popping up in spite of the fact that every official Sony source I have seen clearly says the native resolution is 1280x720. Did Sony ship a few ringers with difference size panels? It would be interesting if somebody could come up with proof that they did.

The one off/one on pixel generator does not have corner markers, but there is a test pattern that does in the same generator. I am getting the same 3% as you saw. This in no way would account for the amount of blanked space left over.

Notice how you already said that you "tuned" the settings. You do know that you can send a resolution and then adjust the size within a frame to fill right? This is very easy with a outboard scaler. In fact, Eric is doing this very thing with his Lumagen and it will STILL show 1:1. So what you are doing is in no way disproving my theory, but rather reinforcing my theory that you're computer is adjusting the timings as needed.

Kris you need to use a HTPC, not just a test generator. use any consumer device that is not your test generator and you will come to the conclusion that everyone else is.

You did not just say that, and expect to be taken seriously, did you!

You did not just say that, and expect to be taken seriously, did you!

Why would you not hook up the device your going to use on the HS51 to test for 1:1 mapping? I'm not going to sit and watch a test generator all day long, Im going to use my HD DVD player when that comes out, my Xbox 360, my PS 3, My HTPC.

And if I can't get 1:1 mapping with the devices im using, whats the point if I can get 1:1 mapping with a test generator?

(Unless you are saying everyone with an pre updated HS51 buy a dvdo and set to the proper mode for 1:1 Mapping on hdmi.)

But the 1:1 mapping only came up to topic because we are disscusing the panel size.

BTW...

no one can get 1:1 mapping on the HDMI on the Sony HS51.

******Dont make me start up this debate again.****** ;)

VGA RULES!!!!!!

Notice how you already said that you "tuned" the settings. You do know that you can send a resolution and then adjust the size within a frame to fill right? This is very easy with a outboard scaler. In fact, Eric is doing this very thing with his Lumagen and it will STILL show 1:1. So what you are doing is in no way disproving my theory, but rather reinforcing my theory that you're computer is adjusting the timings as needed.
When you connect a computer to the VGA input, you need to tune the VSize and Dot Phase controls on the HS-51 to remove interference patterns and get perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. This is what I was refering to, but these controls are not available for HDMI. I don't know what you mean by "adjust the size within a frame to fill". When you use a PC, the resolution is what it is and the desktop fills it exactly. The timings do not change the number of pixels being sent. I don't think anything I said reinforces your theory that the panels are 1366x768.

If you want to prove your theory, use the method I described in this post. Put a ruler up to your screen and line up the 1 inch mark with a grid line. Count the number of pixels between the 1 inch and 2 inch marks. Thanks to the very visible screen door, it is easy to see them :D. Multiply by your screen width in inches and that is approximately your horizontal resolution. This number is not affected by sources, inputs, tuning, 1:1 pixel mapping, or anything else. If you get a number close to 1366, then congratulations, you have a HS-51 with higher resolution panels. Mine is only 1280x720.

What I mean is you are adjusting your Vsize and Dot Phase, which means you are making the resolution work with the PJ, but you are not sending a native 720P with the correct ATSC timings. So you are proving nothing. I am using an HD test generator that doesn't fudge anything and YES SOWK I AM GETTING 1:1 mapping at that resolution, but the PJ is blanking the unused pixels similar to most PJ's through mode. This is quite easy to do.

As for SOWK's comments on using your own devices, that is fine if you want a warm fuzzy for yourself, but it has nothing to do with testing the projector properly. That is like using a resolution pattern to test frequency response on screen instead of using an Oscope. My test leaves little doubt if you know what to look for and what you're doing.

And yes you cannot get 1:1 via HDMI; with the new version of the projector!! ;)

Just received my HS50 today.

When using the S-Video port there is a thin yellow line that runs vertically down the screen near the right hand side. It is quite obvious and most visible in dark scenes.

It isn't there when using HDMI.

I have the new firmware on this projector (1.02).

Anybody know what this line may be??


Could be a ground-loop. The HS50/51 is grounded and many other devices are not. That's why you don't see it when using a digital in.
I think Sony build it grounded to overcome problems when conected to a PC.
Try to use a cable with good shielding, don't use ground lifts, those can kill youre devices.

What I mean is you are adjusting your Vsize and Dot Phase, which means you are making the resolution work with the PJ, but you are not sending a native 720P with the correct ATSC timings. So you are proving nothing.
I think everything I have said proves that my HS-51 has 1280x720 panels, I am just doing it with a 1280x720 VGA signal from a PC. Using a native 720P with correct ATSC timings is not going to change the resolution of the panels. If the 1:1 mapped image from my PC was not using all the available pixels, other inputs would produce a larger image by using all of them. I have tried HDMI and Component at 480I, 480P, 720P and 1080I using an upscaling DVD player and a D-VHS deck. The image is always exactly the same size as from my PC. I did the pixel count method I described above using the DVD player as a source, not the PC. The native resolution is what it is, the input, source, timing, pixel mapping, blanking, etc don't change it.

If you want to go on believing that your HS-51 has higher resolution panels based on your theory, in spite of the fact that Sony says otherwise, that's fine with me. I only reason I got involved in this ridiculous debate is because I thought it would be interesting if someone could prove they have a unit that could display more than 1280x720 pixels. So far I haven't heard anything to convince me that that the Sony literature is wrong.

The HS-51 is 1280x720.
No it isn't.
All the Sony literature says it is 1280x720.
It's all wrong.
But several people have proved it using a well known method and a PC.
No they haven't, you can't prove it with a PC.
I also proved it by counting the pixels.
No, you haven't proven anything.
Yes I have.
No you haven't.
Yes I have.
No you haven't
This isn't an argument, your just contridicting everything I say.
No I'm not.

Ding

Sorry, but time's up. I'm not allowed to argue anymore :D

You must have one of the newer HS-51s if all your sources are the same size, that would not be the case with the older one. Hence why everything is the same size.

But this is a ridiculous debate that really does go anywhere anyways. I am sticking to my comments, but I think I'm done with the back and forth. If you think you've proved it, tha's fine by me.

1.
What I know so far to get the ?-marks straightened out about the bigger/smaller panel issue:
* HDMI, DVI, Component @ 1280*720 (720p)
- Old firmware
Blanking of picture (but no scaling or?) = 1:1 map with black frame = not using all pixels on the 1280*720 panel to display picture)
OUTPUT ALLMOST WHAT THE PLAYER INTENDED IT TO BE BESIDES THE FRAME

- New firmware
Overscan of picture (as in 1080i,480p,570p) = scaling = no 1:1 map = using all pixels on the 1280*720 pane
OUTPUT IS NOT WHAT THE PLAYER INTENDED IT TO BE - PICTURE DEGRADATION DUE TO SCALING

* VGA @ 1280*720 (720p)
- No blanking, no scaling = 1:1 mapping = using all pixels on the 1280*720 panel PIXEL PERFECT


2.
Kris - are you saying that sony has release a YET never firmware that even get rids of blanking when using DVI/HDMI ?
Havent heard of that one here in Sweden(Europe) at least.
If it is out there I will be the first in line to get it.

Best regards
Boogieman

to test:

- Pixel mapping.
in each corner there are a few angles, at each angle there are a number of dots. Each dot represent 2 pixels from the corner of the picture = If you only see 3 ddots in one corner then the overscan = 6 pixels in that corner. Overscan is shown hor and vertically.

- Pixel smear due to non 1:1 mapping or panel disalignment.
As i said there are a nr of different picures with black or white background.
There are different patterns of red, green, blue and cya, magenta, yellow.
There are figures representing 1*1 to 10*10 pixels with and without lines inside them.

There are also single white pixels to check for panel alignment. (i think there is one pwhite pixl that happened to become 2 instead so disregard this one).

Feed the PC with VGA using 1280*720 and set HS-50 APA to on.
If this does not work use power strip to adjust timings or use NVidias tool.

Open a BMP and set BMP as windows desktop background to make sure that PC does no scaling.

The zip with the BMPs comes here


Best regards
Boogieman

Ok. I have an HTPC (video card is GeForce 6600, or I can change to ATI 9600XT). I ordered a 15 feet long DVI to HDMI cable. After reading the posts here, looks like I made a mistake. I should not use DVI to HDMI because of the 1:1 pixel mapping issue. Is that correct?

I will use component to hook my hd receiver box to this projector. HDMI or VGA are the only option for my HTPC. So, is that true that VGA is better than DVI-to-HDMI?

Ok. I have an HTPC (video card is GeForce 6600, or I can change to ATI 9600XT). I ordered a 15 feet long DVI to HDMI cable. After reading the posts here, looks like I made a mistake. I should not use DVI to HDMI because of the 1:1 pixel mapping issue. Is that correct?

I will use component to hook my hd receiver box to this projector. HDMI or VGA are the only option for my HTPC. So, is that true that VGA is better than DVI-to-HDMI?

The picture will be good with either connection but personally I am looking for a DVD player that can handle VGA 1280*720. I really want to see if it really gets a lot better for movies or if the scaler in HS-50 is good enough not to artefact or distort the picture when run via HDMI. I have seen scaled dvds over HDMI and the picture is very nice in 720p (at least on the old firmware with blanking - havent seen the new one). But of course one wants the best picture possible ;)
Normally the digital way is the best but in this case i want to know for sure.
Thinking of comparing a cheap VGA player vs a more expensive HDMI player. If the pic is better on the cheap one then i knwo VGA does matter A LOT :D

The only one i have found that comes close is the neunuo that outputs 1280*1024 (4:3) via VGA but NeoDigits can not answer what will happen to the picture if output to a wide panel but they heard from someone that there should be black bars top/bottom which i think sounds odd (i guess it should depend on the PJ how it handles a 16:9 picture in 4:3 format?).

Now you have the HDMI cable. Go to the closest computer chack and buy a std VGA cable and have a look what looks the best in your eyes. I think it is splendid to have more than one opiton so i dont think it is a bad buy at all :)

Good luck with your PJ
Boogieman

You must have one of the newer HS-51s if all your sources are the same size, that would not be the case with the older one. Hence why everything is the same size.



What are you talking about now??? Are you saying when you send out a 480P image, you get a small image in the center of the sony panel? then 720P is a little larger. so on and so forth? If so you have found a way to turn off the HDMI scaling in the projector.

If thats correct, that is exactly what I can do with my HTPC va VGA, by telling windows not to scale resolutions. but as soon as I hit 1280X720 it fills the panels. if I go any higher I then have to move the mouse and scroll around to see the entire desktop.

Ok. I have an HTPC (video card is GeForce 6600, or I can change to ATI 9600XT). I ordered a 15 feet long DVI to HDMI cable. After reading the posts here, looks like I made a mistake. I should not use DVI to HDMI because of the 1:1 pixel mapping issue. Is that correct?

I will use component to hook my hd receiver box to this projector. HDMI or VGA are the only option for my HTPC. So, is that true that VGA is better than DVI-to-HDMI?

You can go here for some basic shots showing HDMI vs VGA.

The shots I have are correct displaying differences in color , and sharpness. But you can get the balck levels close with hdmi if you tweak the settings. I had to make no adj with my projector in VGA, I had to make some adj with HDMI though to get closer to VGA. You can also get the color close to Vga but requires a lot of time and tweaking.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=527019&highlight=sony+hs51

Ok. I have an HTPC (video card is GeForce 6600, or I can change to ATI 9600XT). I ordered a 15 feet long DVI to HDMI cable. After reading the posts here, looks like I made a mistake. I should not use DVI to HDMI because of the 1:1 pixel mapping issue. Is that correct?

I will use component to hook my hd receiver box to this projector. HDMI or VGA are the only option for my HTPC. So, is that true that VGA is better than DVI-to-HDMI?
So far no one has reported success getting 1:1 pixel mapping over DVI to HDMI from a PC. A few have said that before the blanking firmware fix they were able to do it with a scaler, but they still had the blanking which made the viewable image smaller (black borders). With the newer units that have the fix, no one has reported making it work. Unlikely since it now scales up 720P sources to provide 2-3% overscan.

My advice would be to go VGA if sharpness of the Windows Desktop is important to you. I could never get a sharp desktop using DVI to HDMI, it was always kind of soft and fuzzy. For watching movies I could not tell much difference between the two. I'm currently using VGA for my HTPC. I use the HDMI input for an upscaling DVD player and D-VHS deck.

1:1 mapping was achieveable with the older firmware at 720P via HDMI with proper ATSC timings. But the PJ was blanking quite a bit of the image PLUS doing 2-3% overscan. The new PJs have eliminated the blanking due to Sony's scaling but still have the same 2-3% overscan.

1:1 mapping was achieveable with the older firmware at 720P via HDMI with proper ATSC timings. But the PJ was blanking quite a bit of the image PLUS doing 2-3% overscan. The new PJs have eliminated the blanking due to Sony's scaling but still have the same 2-3% overscan.

Kris what are the timmings you used to get the 1:1 Mapping. I have a Bravo D2 and have the ability to custom set the timmings. I want to use your settings to see if I can get it to work.

Also why are the consumer devices not setup properly for the ATSC timming out of the box?

Who is to say they aren't? There is no way to test for 1:1 for a 720P PJ with a DVD player since you're just upscaling. This was gone over quite awhile back in this very thread. Search for the post by Dale Adams that talks about the timings used by the Iscan HD+. That has the timings for the DVDO. He suggested trying them with different PCs to see what you get. Remember this only works with the OLDER Sony HS51.

I take that back, I imagine if you had a true 1 on 1 off pixel pattern that is native 720P you could play it back using something like MPEG 4 or DivxHD. But I have not tried anything like that. I just used a test generator.

The difference between the older version of the 51 and the newer was quite noticeable via HDMI. The older version was sharper then the new one. And it wasn't subtle. Sony's scaler does some obvious softening in the new version. This was a bit of an issue as SDE was far more prominent with the older PJ style then the newer ones; at least in my setup.

But the newer version allows for far better contrast. With the old version we could get in the mid to upper 3K range but the new one could get in the mid to upper 5K range for On/Off Contrast ratio calibrated. Plus you don't get the image sizes changes with all the different sources.

The amazing thing to me is how the older Sonys would do 1:1 in different resolutions even though the panels were larger. Maybe that does not apply to the HS-51 at all.
Thanks astryau89. It is true that the older projectors did support 1:1 mapping at several different resolutions. But only the native resolution allows for 1:1 mapping AND complete fill of the panel. The other resolutions only partially filled the panel (as described in you first link). Partial fill is not the case with the HS51 when 1280x720 is fed to the VGA input -- it gives 1:1 mapping AND fills every pixel WITH no over/under scan, proving that the panel resolution is 1280x720. The input is either addressing each pixel 1:1 or it is not. The input signal is either addressing every pixel on the screen or it is not. But the only way to achieve BOTH 1:1 mapping AND full panel fill is at native resolution. If there is even one row or column of overscan, scaling takes over and the test pattern changes from a black and white checkerboard to gray noise.

I don't know what is going on with the VGA output but personally I take everything people say with a grain of salt until I see it personally. I have not had the oppurtunity to test the VGA output yet.

Old versions of the HS51 allow 1:1 but the PJ blanks the unused pixels on the panel.
New version does not allow 1:1 since the Sony re-scales to fit the entire panel.


Kris, please test the VGA input for yourself! You've never sent your HS51 a signal that addresses each pixel 1:1 AND fills every visible pixel of screen with edge markers AND has zero overscan/underscan. Until you have done this, I don't see how you can make any accurate conclusions regarding panel resolution. As you state above, it is not possible to perform this test over HDMI because of ether blanking or scaling. Please test with 1:1 mapping and full panel fill and zero overscan before speculating about panel resolution. A 1280x720, alternating pixel image with edge markers via the VGA INPUT would be ideal for this test.

The one off/one on pixel generator does not have corner markers, but there is a test pattern that does in the same generator. I am getting the same 3% as you saw. This in no way would account for the amount of blanked space left over.

Notice how you already said that you "tuned" the settings. You do know that you can send a resolution and then adjust the size within a frame to fill right? This is very easy with a outboard scaler. In fact, Eric is doing this very thing with his Lumagen and it will STILL show 1:1. So what you are doing is in no way disproving my theory, but rather reinforcing my theory that you're computer is adjusting the timings as needed.

The HTPC 1-pixel checkerboard image allows "one off/one on" pixel addressing AND corner markers at the same time. I did not have to adjust any timings, I just set my ATI video card to "HDTV 1280x720@60Hz" and it synched 1:1. Most projectors will allow a range of timings that all achieve 1:1 mapping, you just have to be within the range. This range may not be within the ATSC standard (shame on Sony if it is not). Regardless of the timings used, you'll know if you're getting full panel 1:1 mapping of a 1280x720 checkerboard image. Either the full image is displayed and each pixel is perfectly black or white, or it is a mess of mostly gray RGB noise as each pixel tries to averages the black/white data it receives.

I take that back, I imagine if you had a true 1 on 1 off pixel pattern that is native 720P you could play it back using something like MPEG 4 or DivxHD. But I have not tried anything like that. I just used a test generator.

The difference between the older version of the 51 and the newer was quite noticeable via HDMI. The older version was sharper then the new one. And it wasn't subtle. Sony's scaler does some obvious softening in the new version. This was a bit of an issue as SDE was far more prominent with the older PJ style then the newer ones; at least in my setup.

But the newer version allows for far better contrast. With the old version we could get in the mid to upper 3K range but the new one could get in the mid to upper 5K range for On/Off Contrast ratio calibrated. Plus you don't get the image sizes changes with all the different sources.

When you say new and old HS51s - are you referring to the ones with the old and new firmware or is there any other changes like new optical block?

I have an "old one" at least with the old firmware and i dont want the new unsharp overscan firmware even though it allows for constant image size.
Allthough i am thinking of sending it in to get the pixel alignment done - mine is currently 1 pixel of at red.

What was the change that makes the contrast so much better?
Software or hardware?
Please come back with a reply - i would deeply appreciate it :)

Regards
Boogieman

The interesting thing is when all is said and done, for watching movies, I still prefer 1080i/HDMI from my DVD player vs VGA from a PC on my HS51. The 1080i/HDMI image just look more film-like. The desktop does look better VGA vs HDMI/DVI from a PC, but I don't use my HS51 has a computer display.

I tried the 1080i vs. 720P output setting from my DVD player and stuck with 720P. When I saw the WARNING screen at the beginning of the Universal DVDs, I noticed that the letters were very jagged at 1080i, but completely smooth at 720P. So I don't think the Sony video processor is doing that great a job with the scaled material. It does look outstanding though with true 1080i native HD material.

KRIS 3 posts up - do you think you can answer the question - would apreciate it :)

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Oops, sorry didn't see your post. According to the engineer I talked to at Sony the newer projectors don't have a new "firmware". When you send it in to get the blanking issue "fixed" they actually replace the entire video board in the projector. So this is indeed a complete hardware changeout. Why and how this is effecting contrast ratio I don't know, but it could have to do with the settings for the Dynamic Iris.

If you look at all of the initial reviews for the Sony HS-51 no one was able to achieve more then about 3500:1 On/Off CR calibrated. While this is still excellent for a LCD projector we were able to get about 5800:1 On/Off CR with the PJ completely calibrated. The calibration was done by myself, DarinP and Stacey Spears from WSR. This is substantially different from the numbers people were getting with the older version of the projector and what I saw personally when I had an older version.

Oops, sorry didn't see your post. According to the engineer I talked to at Sony the newer projectors don't have a new "firmware". When you send it in to get the blanking issue "fixed" they actually replace the entire video board in the projector. So this is indeed a complete hardware changeout. Why and how this is effecting contrast ratio I don't know, but it could have to do with the settings for the Dynamic Iris.

If you look at all of the initial reviews for the Sony HS-51 no one was able to achieve more then about 3500:1 On/Off CR calibrated. While this is still excellent for a LCD projector we were able to get about 5800:1 On/Off CR with the PJ completely calibrated. The calibration was done by myself, DarinP and Stacey Spears from WSR. This is substantially different from the numbers people were getting with the older version of the projector and what I saw personally when I had an older version.

Thank you very much for the answer.
What do you recomend - is it worth to replace the projector.
I mean will the picture be better - you dont get 1:1 mapping but on the other hand better contrast - i guess new PJ and VGA connection would be perfect then ?

I have the european version the HS-50 and i got it in march 2005 sometime so I dont think it has the new board - at least there is blanking issues at 720p HDMI so i guess it does not then.

Would you have had the board replaced?
I mean its a HUGE increase in contrast.
Is it the whites that go up or the blacks that go down or maybe both?

I have adjusted the iris open close reg and managed to get a bit deeper blacks but that cant be more than maybe 3-400 something worth in contrast so this is HUGE! :eek:

Regards
Boogieman

Kris you been around and seen plenty of video, and I consider you a expert opinion
How would you pit the HS51 against a good 8" CRT?? I am thinking of retiring the old CRT

my screen is 79" (69" wide) and I sit exactly 2 times back??

your opinion would mean alot to me, I have read so many "hs51 vs crt" here in the past few weeks, another won't hurt :D

-Gary

Why keep arguing? Didn't you guys read my post here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5684600&&#post5684600 ?

regards,

Li On

Kris you been around and seen plenty of video, and I consider you a expert opinion
How would you pit the HS51 against a good 8" CRT?? I am thinking of retiring the old CRT

my screen is 79" (69" wide) and I sit exactly 2 times back??

your opinion would mean alot to me, I have read so many "hs51 vs crt" here in the past few weeks, another won't hurt :D

-Gary

I think the image would be very comparable. Absolute black levels would be a bit better on the CRT I imagine but shadow detail would probably be the same if not better on the Sony. Darin and I talked about this recently and he said the HS51 had about the same ANSI contrast as a 8" CRT in the right enviroment but had a larger On/Off contrast. You screen is a few inches bigger then mine but you are sitting farther back. The image should look phenominal with no SDE issues at all. And I know you're a big fan of D-Theater like I am, and trust me, it looks absolutely incredible on this PJ.

Why keep arguing? Didn't you guys read my post here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5684600&&#post5684600 ?

regards,

Li On

Cool, it is settled then. No 1:1. Can I just enjoy my PJ now?

That's It!! I am ordering a HS51 from Onecall :), thanks for your opinion Kris

My Theater is a black hole, with all gray and black interior, no windows or light of anykind

My Non Liquid coupled 8" CRT has never thrilled me with light scenes with dark in them, there is trmendous light spill and halo's galore

I have the 5u which features a HDMI output, I also have the fabulous Dish Network 942 with HDMI output that I will be building a huge HDTV library with by setting up swapping of hard drives

Now with a HDMI port on the HS51 I am open to a slew of "non chinese junk" dvd players that I was forced to use with the CRT because of component out acceptance only

the only worry I have is SDE and it seems from many opinions including yours that at 2x back which is exaclty where I am at, it is a non issue

I currently see scan lines on my CRT at my distance, they are annoying also, we will have to see when i get it

-Gary

1:1 mapping was achieveable with the older firmware at 720P via HDMI with proper ATSC timings. But the PJ was blanking quite a bit of the image PLUS doing 2-3% overscan. The new PJs have eliminated the blanking due to Sony's scaling but still have the same 2-3% overscan.

I can understand 1:1 with blanking but if it overscans then it is scaled and not 1:1 - unless the panel is smaller than 1280x720 and is only showing the centre part of the image.

I could also understand Sony using the old larger panel but physically masking the area outside of 1280x720, it would have allowed for easier alignment as you could just setup the projector to address the pixels displayed inside the masking, you would never be more than half a pixel out then as you would just address the image to the next set of pixels along. They don't appear to be doing that however as some seem to be more than that out.

Mine is using a large lens offset (downwards) and therefore the blue at the furthest (bottom) part of the screen has the blue slightly out.
When using zero offset at both ends of the picture the blue is spaced further out - but this is because in optics blue bends more through a lens - it is perfect in the screens centre.

Let me ask a naïve question. I just got my Sony HS51, I assume it is a newer model. So, does that mean I might have the new board which might solved the problem for the HDMI 1:1 pixel mapping?

Douzi check the Sony website:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

-Gary

Guys I have another quick one for this prospective owner, how does the HS51 do on 1080i to 720p conversion??, would I benefit with a external Lumagen or Iscan for the 1080i to 720p conversion??

90% of my content is 1080i source

-Gary

It does excellent for native 1080i material, but I don't like its performance with DVD sent to it converted to 1080i. I would recommend sending 480P or 720P for DVDs.

If you go with the Lumagen though you can have it convert everything to 1080P24sf, which is supposed to look excellent on this PJ. I haven't tried it yet but I plan to very shortly (hopefully this weekend).

Thanks Kris

-Gary

The interesting thing is when all is said and done, for watching movies, I still prefer 1080i/HDMI from my DVD player vs VGA from a PC on my HS51. The 1080i/HDMI image just look more film-like. The desktop does look better VGA vs HDMI/DVI from a PC, but I don't use my HS51 has a computer display.
I've had a HTPC for years because it was the best way to watch DVDs on my old DWIN CRT PJ which only had analog RGBHV inputs. I don't use it to watch DVDs anymore, I use an upscaling DVD player feeding the HS-51 720P over HDMI. I also think it looks better, mostly because the color looks better. This may be due to better accuracy. I could never get the red, green, and blue color patterns on Avia to all be correct with the PC. With the DVD player over HDMI, I didn't even need to adjust the color. All three patterns were good at the default settings, almost perfect.

The DVD player is also more reliable. I loved the TheaterTek DVD software, but I often had problems with rental disks. Sometime things would freeze up and require a reboot. Some disks it just could not play. I always had to have a DVD player as a backup to watch problem disks.

I'm sure there are HTPC owners who would disagree, and you probably can get the best image using a PC and a lot of tweaking, but I just don't have the time. I would rather enjoy watching movies.

There seems to be some confusion about the 720P blanking. I have been following this thread from the beginning (yes, I have read every post, I would hate to add all that time up). For those who haven't, maybe this will help. From my questionable memory, but I'm sure if any of it is incorrect someone will point it out. :D

The blanking only affected 720P sources.
It affected both HDMI and Component sources at 720P
It did not affect Input A (VGA connector) in Computer mode. Any 1280x720@60Hz image with typical timings would produce an image the same size as non-720P sources. After adjustment the entire Windows desktop was visible. There was one exception that I reported in this post. I saw the blanking using 1280x720@50Hz when I was running a test that someone requested. I don't know if anyone else ever saw it.
Several people reported achieving 1:1 pixel mapping from a PC set to 1280x720@60Hz using Input A. No one reported blanking at this setting, but it was necessary to use the vertical and horizontal shift setting to center the image and see all the corner markers. Once centered, if you shifted 1 unit in any direction a corner marker would disappear.
Someone tried sending 720P to Input A in Component mode using a RCA to VGA cable hoping that it was input specific, but they also saw the blanking.
No one ever reported achieving 1:1 pixel mapping using DVI to HDMI from a PC, the 1 pixel B&W checkboard became a uniform gray background and the text got thicker. But people who tried also saw the blanking.
A few people with scalers reported achieving 1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI, but they still saw the blanking and reduced image size.
Most measurements indicated that the blanking cropped 2-3% of the image on each side, reducing the visible image area and total pixels by about 10%
With the blanking fix, all 720P inputs produce an image the same size as the others. HDMI and Component at 720P now have about 2-3% of the available image cropped by overscan. So these inputs are being scaled up and it is unlikely anyone will find a way to get 1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI with the blanking fix.
I sent my HS-51 for the fix. As far as I can tell, the blanking fix had no effect on 1:1 pixel mapping of Input A in Computer Mode.

Douzi check the Sony website:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?mdl=VPLHS51&news_id=67

-Gary

Thank you, Gary, I tried the site and it said "Based on the serial number you supplied, your VPLHS51 Video Projector is not affected by this image display issue and does not require any update. If you feel that you have received this message in error, please call the number below:". does this mean the projector will not have 1:1 pixel mapping problem?

I'm sure there are HTPC owners who would disagree, and you probably can get the best image using a PC and a lot of tweaking, but I just don't have the time. I would rather enjoy watching movies.
I don't believe anyone credible has tried to make that case. IIRC the last comparison screen shots I saw, most agreed that the HDMI shots look better than the VGA. shots!

I may have a tip for those suffering from panel convergence problems. I didn't see mention of this in earlier posts so forgive me if this turns out to be superfluous...

Two weeks ago I received my HS50. After a few viewings I noticed a yellow line, 2 pixels wide, along the right side of the projected image (using 720p HDMI) due to the absence of blues. Upon closer inspection, blues also seemed to off in the subtitles, almost 2 pixels to the left and 1 to the top. It wasn't noticeable during normal viewing, but once you know its there... :(

Thankfully I discovered that the problem was not a result of bad panel convergence, but the result of image shifting: the blue shift increased as the image was shifted away from "dead-ahead" projection. It turns out that blue tends to shift towards the original center, lagging behind increasingly as the image is shifted up/down and left/right. In my case, I have been able to reduce the problems to a minimum by shifting the image back towards the center. Blue still tends towards the center around the edges, but this is within acceptable limits.

In other words, shifting the image may be able to improve panel convergence.

BTW I don't think this addresses the problem posted by actos earlier (yellow line using s-video but not using HDMI) but you never know...

I don't believe anyone credible has tried to make that case. IIRC the last comparison screen shots I saw, most agreed that the HDMI shots look better than the VGA. shots!

Are you saying Hdmi is better then VGA in gereral on the HS51?

Or DVD player thru hdmi vs HTPC thru VGA?

-Sowk

originally posted by CoreSmack

In other words, shifting the image may be able to improve panel convergence

If you are talking about lens shift, then the artifact you are seeing is not poor convergence, but chromatic aberration from the lens. Lens shift has no effect on panel convergence. I've suspected that some of the complaints about poor convergence have really been due to chromatic aberration.

Pip

originally posted by Kris Deering:
It does excellent for native 1080i material, but I don't like its performance with DVD sent to it converted to 1080i. I would recommend sending 480P or 720P for DVDs.

Kris: Can you elaborate a bit on the reasons for your recommendations for DVDs? You seem to be saying that the projector upconverts DVDs better than the current upconverting DVD players. Many others have expressed their preference for DVDs at 1080i. Given all of your other cogent and helpful observations about this projector, I'm very curious. Perhaps an upconverting player is not beneficial with this unit?

Thanks,
Pip

Its simple. If you send this PJ 1080i via HDMI or DVI from your upconverting player, lots of stuff has to happen.

First, the PJ will use a "Bob" de-interlacing technique to get the information to 1080P, then it will scale down to 720P. This essentially makes this PJ in line with some of the worse DVD player processing out there. You have essentially made the nice upscaling DVD player you have worthless.

I recommend sending 720P via HDMI to this PJ. It has less overscan then 480P, and the PJ's internal de-interlacer is bypassed.

Oh another thing. I hooked up a Lumagen Vision HDP to the Sony tonight being fed from my Denon DVD-5910. I set the output for 1080P24SF since the Sony supports this resolution.

I can't recommend this either. For one, that output is essentially 1080i/48 and the Sony still de-interlaces it. The image had a lot more digital artifacting and if it lost cadence at all, it would start stuttering badly. There was also obvious banding in gray ramps which is an indication of 8 bit processing. I was hoping that this would look really good, but unfortunately it didn't work out. The image from the 5910 via HDMI at 720P (HDMI YCbCr) was a lot better. It was cleaner, smoother with pans and had more detail. This is one of those PJs that you should have a Faroudja or HQV based player for. The 10 bit HDMI outputs of most of these players provides an outstanding image and this projector doesn't show any of the macroblocking associated with the newer Faroudja chips. If you can send HDMI in the YCbCr domain, I highly recommend it.

Kris do you use that JVC 5u of yours in HDMI mode or Component??

Any chance you(or anyone else) have tried Dish Network on the HS51??, the 942 PVR??

it features both HDMI and Component out

I am a CRT guy and just noticed that all 4 of my sources have HDMI, weird huh?? :)

-Gary

Yeah I use the HDMI out of the 5U. Picture looks nothing short of phenominal. Better then component out of a 3K (all I can compare it to as I don't have any component cables even connected to my 51). I don't have satellite though. I have Comcast cable and my HD PVR has a DVI output. Still looks excellent though. It also has a firewire output going to my 5U. So if I want I can just watch through the 5U or copy movies from the PVR straight to the 5U via firewire. That is the main reason I got the 5U. But in the last few weeks I've managed to wrangle up around 30 DTheater titles, and there are more on the way!!

One last one for you Kris or anyone, is panel alignment very much of a issue??, I am used to spot on perfect convergence with my CRT becuase I have total control over that issue with CRT
From what I understand perfect convergence with LCD is rare??

-Gary

I don't have any convergence errors.

The demo HS51 at my local dealer has perfect convergence.

Oh another thing. I hooked up a Lumagen Vision HDP to the Sony tonight being fed from my Denon DVD-5910. I set the output for 1080P24SF since the Sony supports this resolution.

I can't recommend this either. For one, that output is essentially 1080i/48 and the Sony still de-interlaces it. The image had a lot more digital artifacting and if it lost cadence at all, it would start stuttering badly. There was also obvious banding in gray ramps which is an indication of 8 bit processing. I was hoping that this would look really good, but unfortunately it didn't work out. The image from the 5910 via HDMI at 720P (HDMI YCbCr) was a lot better. It was cleaner, smoother with pans and had more detail. This is one of those PJs that you should have a Faroudja or HQV based player for. The 10 bit HDMI outputs of most of these players provides an outstanding image and this projector doesn't show any of the macroblocking associated with the newer Faroudja chips. If you can send HDMI in the YCbCr domain, I highly recommend it.

Kris, can you please give me your opinion to help me decide? Having the the HS50 (europe model), but stil could not completely decide which DVDPlayer to get. Already bring choises back to the Pioneer 59avi (868 here in PAL country) and the Denon 3910 and read both threads from start to end :D. I know this is a hard debate, but can you recommand on which one gives the best/closest to the original movie material reproduction, real sharpnes and colors (not prosessed up) and greathest detail?

Guys,

What VGA cable do you recommend for a 12M(40ft) run to a HS50/51 from a HTPC ?

Paul

perfect convergence??, I didn't think that happened with these units, if i get a unit with bad convergence can it be corrected or sent into Sony??, from what I understand the answer is NO!!

Paul I would get that cable from bluejeanscable.com , they use Belden stuff which is the best
that is a long run though that might benefit with breakout cables on each end of a 5 bnc run

-Gary

Kris, can you please give me your opinion to help me decide? Having the the HS50 (europe model), but stil could not completely decide which DVDPlayer to get. Already bring choises back to the Pioneer 59avi (868 here in PAL country) and the Denon 3910 and read both threads from start to end :D. I know this is a hard debate, but can you recommand on which one gives the best/closest to the original movie material reproduction, real sharpnes and colors (not prosessed up) and greathest detail?

Either should be fine but I would go with the Denon personally. Since the Sony doesn't show the macroblocking issue, I would go with the 10 bit video processing.

perfect convergence??, I didn't think that happened with these units, if i get a unit with bad convergence can it be corrected or sent into Sony??, from what I understand the answer is NO!!

-Gary
It depends on the level of misconvergance. IIRC anything less than a full pixel off is considered within specs. If the unit is misconverged, they will warranty fix it.

It depends on the level of misconvergance. IIRC anything less than a full pixel off is considered within specs. If the unit is misconverged, they will warranty fix it.

On my new unit convergence looks OK to me (was one of the bigest fear's to me on this unit). Projecting on a 92" diag. screen i only see a very small convergence inperfection, but have almost touch the screen with my nose to see it :). Single width DVD lines ar much wider than the "mis-convergence". Even with the HTPC conected to the pj i could find no real problems, the non-1:1 mapping is much more visable when conecting the HTPC via HDMI :). No weird colored lines here, me happy. (and i'm very picky at convergence, alignet my old Sony 32" trinitron CRT myself in the service menu) :).
SD is also no problem to me, just before 1.5xwidth screen distance pixels begin to "melt together", fore my eyes that is :).

Regarding the overscan issue with DVI input:

Has anyone tried the ATI DVI-Component converter dongle (on a qualifying video card) to see if this gets rid of the problem? And if so, is the quality noticably degraded versus using the digital input?

My primary use for my HS51 is for gaming and while its not a problem watching DVD's, the overscan is killing me with gaming.

What VGA cable do you recommend for a 12M(40ft) run to a HS50/51 from a HTPC ?
Not the best place to ask since the model of PJ doesn't matter, you might get better answers by searching, this has been discussed a lot. But several people have made positive comments about the following vendors.

ramelectronics.net (forum sponsor)
bettercables.com (forum sponsor)
bluejeanscable.com
pccables.com (very inexpensive compared to others)

I got my 25 foot VGA cable from Markertek, but I can't recommend it because the timing is very touchy and I can't completely eliminate interference patterns. I can eliminate them with a shorter cable.

Regarding the overscan issue with DVI input:

Has anyone tried the ATI DVI-Component converter dongle (on a qualifying video card) to see if this gets rid of the problem? And if so, is the quality noticably degraded versus using the digital input?
I think the only input that will have no blanking or overscan is Input A in Computer Mode (VGA connector). If the ATI is outputting component, it will probably have overscan unless you have a pre-blanking fix unit and send it 720P, in which case it will probably have blanking. I think SOWK reported using a DVI to VGA converter for games.

Someone reported a way to eliminate the overscan/blanking with a HTPC connected DVI to HDMI. Their graphics driver had an option to shrink the desktop so it did not fill the 1280x720 resolution. I believe it was NVIDIA, but ATI may have something similar. It was several months back, but you might do some searching to see if you can find it.

Either should be fine but I would go with the Denon personally. Since the Sony doesn't show the macroblocking issue, I would go with the 10 bit video processing.

Thank's Kris, going Denon now. First i got to save some money :) and then order the DVDPlayer. Pockets are a bit emty after buying the PJ :D. When it's here i let you know how it looks. But for nou, i'm using a prehistoric DVP-S7700 over component :D.

I think i will wait till september and see what denon will do with the new models :)
They are about to release their new budget player this summer and the good news is DivX support and manual handling of the flags in the player. Click "mehr information und produktvergleiche" for more info about features.
http://www.denon.de/site/frames_main.php?main=prod&ver=&MID=3&sub=1&action=detail&Pid=231

I would be really disapointed if the "3920" ? will not support som kind of HD like WMV-HD or DivX-HD at least. An interesting autumn is coming so keep the spirit up during the boring summer :p

And JVC launches their AVEL link based player with HD then too - interesting autumn this will be :D
Maybe someone will release a player with VGA out supporting 1280*720p @50 and 60 Hz

Regards
Boogieman

Ah, you have a point there [Europe]Boogiem. Maybe i can wait a bit longer to see how the new models are doing. On the other hand, i think i wan't a good player before the winter is there :) co's at winter we watch loads of movies :). Also thinking about the new Sony's, DVP-NS9100 and DVP-NS3100, and it think Pioneer is releasing a new model by the end of the year.....

The HS-51 will accept 72Hz input, but will the panels output it? Or will it get converted to 60Hz?

~D

One last one for you Kris or anyone, is panel alignment very much of a issue??, I am used to spot on perfect convergence with my CRT becuase I have total control over that issue with CRT
From what I understand perfect convergence with LCD is rare??

-Gary

Greetings,


Gary, my HS51 exhibits no panel alignment issues. I got one of the updated units and it has performed extremely well.


Regards,

I would be really disapointed if the "3920" ? will not support som kind of HD like WMV-HD or DivX-HD at least. An interesting autumn is coming so keep the spirit up during the boring summer.

I have seen some or most of Denon's plans for the next several months. No "3920". New DVD stuff is in the lower part of the line. Don't know anything about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray support right now. Maybe more info after the middle of July.

We now return you to the HS51....

Your right Robert, Denon said at CES that there would be no new players later this year in the upper line.

The Sony only supports 72Hz via the VGA input. Via HDMI it will do 60/50 Hz and 1080P24sf, which is essentially 1080i at 48Hz.

Your right Robert, Denon said at CES that there would be no new players later this year in the upper line.

The Sony only supports 72Hz via the VGA input. Via HDMI it will do 60/50 Hz and 1080P24sf, which is essentially 1080i at 48Hz.

Too sad :(
I guess one has to rely on once old Philips DVD963Sa for another year then be4 they release anything out of interest. Or hope for some other manufacturer to take the lead for a change :)
Anyway - back to HS50.

KRIS
Have you seen my question about the HS50 in this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5778617#post5778617

Would you prefer new or old firmware so to say? I cant really get a straight answer out of the info in the different threads.

Regards
Boogieman

Your right Robert, Denon said at CES that there would be no new players later this year in the upper line.

The Sony only supports 72Hz via the VGA input. Via HDMI it will do 60/50 Hz and 1080P24sf, which is essentially 1080i at 48Hz.

That's too bad. I was hopping to hook up the Sony HS-51 to the DVDO HD+ and output it at 72Hz to avoid jutter.

Oh well, the search continues. Luckily I have a year before my new dedicated theatre is built. :D

Thanks Kris,
Don

That's too bad. I was hopping to hook up the Sony HS-51 to the DVDO HD+ and output it at 72Hz to avoid jutter.

Oh well, the search continues. Luckily I have a year before my new dedicated theatre is built. :D

Thanks Kris,
Don

Why not send out the Signal thru VGA on the DVDO HD+ at 72Hz?

The DVDO does have VGA out!!! Use it.

-SOWK

I would recommend the new firmware models. You can get a higher contrast ratio calibrated and you don't have to worry about sizing the image with different input resolutions.

I read the Sony had an issue with overscan on analog inputs. Don't they also down-res DVI-HDCP when it converts to analog? That's why I was hoping to use the HMDI with HDCP.

I read the Sony had an issue with overscan on analog inputs. Don't they also down-res DVI-HDCP when it converts to analog? That's why I was hoping to use the HMDI with HDCP.

On all inputs except VGA - Computer Mode. HDMI\S-video\Composite\Compont all have Overscan.

Also the DVDO HD+ you have I think will NOT down-res DVI-HDCP.

-SOWK

VGA - Computer mode is also a good way to get 1:1 mapping thru out the panel.

Well thanks to many folks opinions, my HS51 has been ordered unseen, I am a heavy-duty CRT guy and have never seen a Digital projected image, I will be doing a comparions to my Barco Data 808s over on the CRT forum, can't wait until it is on my steps

Now if the HS51 stays and I am sure it will, it's time to decide between the 3910 or 59avi for my last DVD player to buy, before HDTV Disc's of some sorts are released
although I am not all that excited over them due to my my large HDTV archive and D-Theater

I will be testing the HS51 with my current favorite DVD player the NeuNeo HVD-2081, a JVC 5u D-VHS deck and Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr, all sources have HDMI

I am so excited :)

-Gary

Well thanks to many folks opinions, my HS51 has been ordered unseen, I am a heavy-duty CRT guy and have never seen a Digital projected image, I will be doing a comparions to my Barco Data 808s over on the CRT forum, can't wait until it is on my steps

Now if the HS51 stays and I am sure it will, it's time to decide between the 3910 or 59avi for my last DVD player to buy, before HDTV Disc's of some sorts are released
although I am not all that excited over them due to my my large HDTV archive and D-Theater

I will be testing the HS51 with my current favorite DVD player the NeuNeo HVD-2081, a JVC 5u D-VHS deck and Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr, all sources have HDMI

I am so excited :)

-Gary

If possible test it with VGA in computer mode, but you need to send the signals out in 720P format! You will get 1:1 mapping, and possible better grey scale! (Even after i configured HDMI I was not able to get the same blacks, and grey scale as VGA)

VGA won't work through the DVDO unless the source is not HDCP. So that means either SDI, a rare non-HDCP player, or component into the DVDO. I would rather stay digital as long as possible personally. I am going to do some experiments though this week to try some different things.

I will be testing all connections, no problem Sowk

-Gary

Well thanks to many folks opinions, my HS51 has been ordered unseen, I am a heavy-duty CRT guy and have never seen a Digital projected image, I will be doing a comparions to my Barco Data 808s over on the CRT forum, can't wait until it is on my steps

Now if the HS51 stays and I am sure it will, it's time to decide between the 3910 or 59avi for my last DVD player to buy, before HDTV Disc's of some sorts are released
although I am not all that excited over them due to my my large HDTV archive and D-Theater

I will be testing the HS51 with my current favorite DVD player the NeuNeo HVD-2081, a JVC 5u D-VHS deck and Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr, all sources have HDMI

I am so excited :)

-Gary

Greetings,

Congrats Gary ! I think you will be very happy with the HS51.


Regards,

Kris, did you take a look at the scaler quality in the HS50/51? And if yes, how did it compare to scalers in the Denon 3910 or Pioneer 59AVi? Which one would you use if using them in a combination?
Or would you use the DVDO iScan HD+ instead of these scalers?

Thanks for your opinions Ralph, especially on the Convergence

-Gary

Kris, did you take a look at the scaler quality in the HS50/51? And if yes, how did it compare to scalers in the Denon 3910 or Pioneer 59AVi? Which one would you use if using them in a combination?
Or would you use the DVDO iScan HD+ instead of these scalers?

The scaler in the Sony is okay, but not great. I would recommend using a Faroudja or HQV based player via HDMI with this PJ and setting the output resolution to 720P. Or going with a HTPC.

The DVDO or Lumagen would be good options too.

As for HD material, I would just send the native feed. Maybe later when there is true inverse telecine 1080i de-interlacing it may make a difference but with as much inherent resolution 1080i has, I doubt most people will even notice a difference vs the bob style de-interlacing we have now. I will do some evaluations of this when I get the new video processor from Anthem. It will probably be the first one I get hold of that will do true 1080i de-interlacing.

I will be testing the HS51 with my current favorite DVD player the NeuNeo HVD-2081, a JVC 5u D-VHS deck and Dish Network 942 HDTV pvr, all sources have HDMI

I am so excited :)

-Gary

CONGRATS to a good buy.
So you will be testing the new NeuNuvo that is VERY INTERESTING considering it has VGA out and supports 1280*1024 with the latest firmware
My interest lies in if you can get 1:1 mapping over the VGA out on the NeuNuvo - ok not real 1:1 since it is a scaled picture (in the DVD from 720*480 to 1280*1024) but you see what i mean.
Since it outputs 1280*1024 this 4:3 format so i am wondering if a widescreen picture will be displayed correctly and also if you will se the entire picture WITHOUT overscan. Test with e.g DVE(Digital Video Essentials) or likewise.
I am thinking of buying a 208 if it manages to get 1:1 map and a good picture.
Who knows - due to the possible? 1:1 map it might be very close to more expensive players out there ;)

As i have heard the HS-50 VGA input is the only input where the HS-50 does NOT use its own scaler to change the picture info - thats the great part about it. I wonder what happesn if it gets a 1280*1024 picture (from 208) with black bars though?
I wish it was the same for the HS50 HDMI input though (no internal scaling) but you cant get everything i guess :)

I am awaiting your results with HUGE interest.

Best regards
Boogieman

Boogie the NeuNeo folks will be releasing a firmware that allows for 720p/1080i via the VGA output, until then it is only standard pc resolutions and those look like total Crap

-Gary

Kris do you think I would see any benefit adding a external scaler that does the 1080i > 720p conversion before it gets to the Sony??, if we had 1:1 with 720p I am sure the external scaler for 1080i > 720p would be better wouldn't it??

Does anyone know if the Sony will accept 1080p 60hz ??

-Gary

Boogie the NeuNeo folks will be releasing a firmware that allows for 720p/1080i via the VGA output, until then it is only standard pc resolutions and those look like total Crap

-Gary

Oh they will release a firmware for that :D
Thats good news since i have been on their tail for months about 1280*720 or 720p just to finally get a standalon DVD player with VGA that fits the sony :D
I have asked them about the 1280*1024 but they really did not know how it looked on a HD PJ - they only had heard from people that they got black bars top/boottom (which i think sounds odd since the picture has to be shrunk vertically - not "stretched" with black bars).

Hope the new FW will look as good as I think it will. From a PC outputting 1280*720 the picture is really outstanding and if we could get a DVD player that handles that.....well I guess it will sell like "butter melts in sunshine" to all HS-50 owners ;) Especially being priced the way it is :D

Thanks for the info about the firmware update
Boogieman

Boogie man the Momitsu v880DX offers 720p(or any custom resolution) via VGA

-Gary

Kris or anyone,

I have been debating on if I should send my pj in for the firmware update. I had recently decided not to as I was going to get the Denon 2910 and output 1080i to bypass the 720P issues. I am also considering going HD thru my local cable company. Am I going to have to rethink the issue of sending my unit in for the firware update?

You mentioned a couple of posts ago that you would feed the unit 480 or 720 signals becuase of all the processing that has to happen on a 1080i feed, so I guess my question is, would I be better off sending 1080i to the old firmware, or sending 720p to new firware???

HELLLPPP.

And thanks in advance for that help.

I am also considering going HD thru my local cable company. Am I going to have to rethink the issue of sending my unit in for the firware update?
Whether or not to send an HS51 for the blanking fix is a tough call since it may come back with other problems it doesn't have now. There have been several reports of lens shift problems after shipping. A few reported that panel alignment was worse. A few people have thought their Iris operation was worse, but this is adjustable from the service menu. On my HS51 the default color temps were changed and much worse, but it didn't matter to me because I use the settings posted by Kris.

You might want to check with your cable company, but I think most of the boxes can be set to output only 1080i. I have the Comcast 6412 and it can be set to 480I, 480P, 720P or 1080I and everything will be that resolution. It does not have the option to output at whatever the native format is, so there is no way to automatically get 720P at 720P and 1080I at 1080I.

720p issues do not concern me all that much, 90% of my sources are native 1080i and wil lbe fed to the HS51 that way

I would like to do DVD from a Pioneer 59avi or Denon 3910 via 1:1 720p, but it don't look like that will happen

-Gary

Kris do you think I would see any benefit adding a external scaler that does the 1080i > 720p conversion before it gets to the Sony??, if we had 1:1 with 720p I am sure the external scaler for 1080i > 720p would be better wouldn't it??

Does anyone know if the Sony will accept 1080p 60hz ??

-Gary

Hey Gary

No the Sony won't accept 1080P60, only 1080P24sf, which didn't look that great on it in my opinion.

The Sony may benefit from a scaler for the circumstance you are talking about, but right now there really isn't a good one on the market for what you are talking about. The only benefit would be if the scaler did true inverse telecine de-interlacing, and right now I think maybe one Faroudja scaler is doing this. I will be testing this out soon with a scaler that will be on the market shortly and will let you know how it goes. Until then, I recommend just feeding the Sony straight 1080i. I have been doing this with HD broadcasts and D-Theater and the result is superb.

Thanks Kris, you are a world of helpful advice

-Gary

I am definitely interested in this PJ... I have two major concerns with it however, I started scrolling through the 148 pages but it was taking WAY too long: can a thread regular chime in please?

My concerns are:

SDE - I sit at 2x screen width (16' away from 110'' diagonal screen)

Brightness - I have a 1.3 gain Da-lite Cinema Vision... and I like a 'punchy' image... can this PJ do this at this size?

Noise - in High Lamp mode is it ridiculously loud? It'll be just barely behind my head so I would notice it there more than anywhere else.

Your thoughts?

PS - I'll be using a Denon 2910 DVD Player (already purchased)

I will report on 2x SDE on monday when my HS51 arrives, I have 20/10 vision

I sit exactly 2x from a 69" wide screen (79" diagonal)

-Gary

I am definitely interested in this PJ... I have two major concerns with it however, I started scrolling through the 148 pages but it was taking WAY too long: can a thread regular chime in please?

My concerns are:

SDE - I sit at 2x screen width (16' away from 110'' diagonal screen)

Brightness - I have a 1.3 gain Da-lite Cinema Vision... and I like a 'punchy' image... can this PJ do this at this size?

Noise - in High Lamp mode is it ridiculously loud? It'll be just barely behind my head so I would notice it there more than anywhere else.

Your thoughts?

PS - I'll be using a Denon 2910 DVD Player (already purchased)

Definately no worries on SDE from that distance. Not even a slight chance.

I am using a 1.3 gain screen as well and I am getting 18 Foot Lamberts off the screen at the main seating position. So plenty of punch. Not a PJ that you can use in a lit up room, but with a dark room this PJ has plenty of light. I am actually thinking of using a ND filter!

Yes you can hear the fan in high lamp mode, but why would you use this? Again this is not a PJ for rooms that don't have light control. If you have total light control, stick with low lamp mode.

okay, few final questions:

is this projector going to last a few years ... we aren't the type of family that upgrades every year;).

is this just a plug and play type unit... I mean aside from initial calibrations... I dont want to have to recalibrate extensively with every single movie

no vertical banding, correct?

I'm not too too worried about brightness... if it is crappy then I'll get a high power screen and sell off my CV screen

Kris, are you throwing a 110'' diagonal image?

one final question - do you know of anywhere in my area (south carolina) that I'd be able to test out this PJ? or is the only way to just buy from a reputable online dealer with a return policy?

and in answer to your question, yes I do have light control... its much better at night, but for daytime viewing its just the news and things like that... so I can deal w/ a more washed out image. movies are viewed at night ;)

It will last as long as it satisfies your needs. It isn't a 1080P display, but otherwise it has most of the bells and whistles.

Pretty much plug and play.

No VB

I am throwing a 76" diagonal image

Can't help you with local dealers, wrong coast ;)

I am shooting a 16:9 picture 240*135 cms (about 108 inch diagonal in your measurements ;)) onto a Stewart Firehawk and have also been trying to shoot it onto Gain 1 matte white Euroscreen. The current seating distance is about 390 cms (153 inches in funny measurements :)) so the seating relationship is about 1.6:1 and the SD can be seen in bright "fast moving scenes" ON THE FIREHAWK that is. On the gain 1 screen it is barely noticable.
The speed related thing is the strange thing about the HS50 - as long as the scenes are solid or slowly moving you dont see the SD but as soon as thing start to happen fast you can see the SD. I guess it is something of an eye-effect. I have allways been sensitivte to SD (thus the HS50 is my first LCD if i cont away my first shoebox Sharp PJ "back then" ;)) so I will move my seating back to 1.7 where the SD disapperas on my gain 1 screen and i think i will skip on the FH even though it is needed in some mixed scenes (with light and dark portions) but i prefer the clean colours of the white screen especially yellow seem to get a lot better on a white screen. But the colours on the firehawk is defenitely the best i have ever seen on a grey screen and the same goes for the peak whites that are a little dimmed compared to a white screen but that is really nothing in comparison to what it does for the black level in ambient light.
Anyway at 2* seating distance i dont think you will have any problem regardless of what screen you choose. I have 20/20 (with my lensen on) and run the HS50 in high lamp and auto iris (for more punch in the colours) and this is my experience. I had o lower the contrast from 80 to 65 though to prevent reds from being exhausted (i will buy a red filter and try lowering red while raising the contrast to get a little more contrast on the reds). It is very apparent that the reds "loose out" first if you look at e.g. finding nemo scenes like the fins and the "scoring" in the fins. When you raise the contrast here you can see that the scoring gradually goes away. If you find the right scenes (dont have them in my head right now) you will se that the reds start to float together allready at contrast values above 65 - not for all scenes but with the right (or wrong if you oprefer) light in the scene and the higher contrast you will without a dobut loose detail. I am running the old firmware (with blanking) an di dont know if this has been dcorrected in the new firmware but it might be so since KRIS D. mentioned that the new firmware provides the possibility to achieve a higher contrast (and this might maybe be due to the reds?) at D65. On the other hand you loose the 1:1 mapping (and the crappy blanking) @ 720p and instead gets overscan = no 1:1 map(which is worse?) over HDMI / DVI / COMPONENT.

I am really in a mind war here. Should i upgrade to new firmware and live with overscan or should i try out the old one and a red filter an see whcih contratst numbers i can achieve (damn i got to get a colometri system first - forgot that).

Anyway - at 2:1 seating distance SD should not be a prob and yes the oicture is magnificient at that distance. Not shining bright like the Sharp XVZ2K but defenitely a lot smoother and filmlike. Lacks a bit of the depth of the sharp though but takes that back on the IMO better colour tracing (have heard people saying the opposit so this is just what i think after testing the PJ towards eachother for a coupl of days and this was about 4 months ago when the sharp was brand new).

Of course if you choose a high gain screen you will "have to" ceiling mount the PJ to get a benefit of the gain effect of the screen. Otherwise the picture will not be very good due to that you get outside the correct vertical angle (since the a high gain screen is even more angualr reflective than a low gain one and the concentration will land in the ceiling instead of the seating position) and will thus loose a lot of the punch in the picture and might also suffer from "darker edges" of the picture. Bascially - PJ has to be ceiling mounted for a high gain screen unless you hve elevated the cinemaposition above the PJ position (like in a cinema) which would give you the same situation as a ceiling mounted std install only now the light bounces ont the screen and up in your face ;).

Regards
Boogieman

I have discovered that my new Dish Network 942 HDTV PVR has chroma bugs and a y/c delay via component

Anyone!! What is a good scaler that will rid me of these 2 major annoyances??

I have been looking at the Lumagen VisionHDP, the DVDO does not have enough inputs, Why don't any of these scaler's feature HDMI inputs??

I have not tested the HDMI port on that Dish PVR, maybe it won't have the y/c delay but it will still have chroma bugs that I would like to rid myself off

Thanks for anyones advice

-Gary

Yahmomcool:

My rig is not terribly different from what you are considering. HS51 on 92" Da-Lite 1.3 white Cinema Vision. Low lamp mode. Denon DVD-3910 via HDMI. Primary seating is 11' from screen.

No SDE. Very good contrast in dark room. Very "punchy" image. Does not tolerate ambient light well. Image is "watchable" (ie, news, weather, etc.) with a little light not directed toward screen. I suppose high lamp mode would brighten things up in ambient light, but I don't use for that.

Good luck. I love mine.

thanks robert, but my size will be a foot and a half larger than that, this will reduce the punchiness to a great degree, I would think - no? I mean I suppose I could always watch it in high lamp mode... but I'm afeared of the noise. However even in High lamp mode its quieter than my last PJ in low mode ;)

I've seen the HS51 on a 106" Cinema Vision. I don't think there was much difference from the 92" overall. I don't think I'd recommend a screen much over 106" however, this due to brightness issues.

Yahmomcool:

My rig is not terribly different from what you are considering. HS51 on 92" Da-Lite 1.3 white Cinema Vision. Low lamp mode. Denon DVD-3910 via HDMI. Primary seating is 11' from screen.

No SDE. Very good contrast in dark room. Very "punchy" image. Does not tolerate ambient light well. Image is "watchable" (ie, news, weather, etc.) with a little light not directed toward screen. I suppose high lamp mode would brighten things up in ambient light, but I don't use for that.

Good luck. I love mine.

Robert, how about SDE at 10'? I am close to buying this projector and the same screen and am trying to determine proper screen size. I've been toying with 84" but 92" would be ideal.

Thanks

People have different perception of screen door on the HS51, there have been reports of SDE vanishing at 1.5X for some folks and some say it takes 2x for it to dissapear
I will find out tomorrow and report for you mimason, when my HS51 arrives

moral of the story is you won't know until you try it out in your setup

there is also a poll thread about the HS51 and SDE

finally found the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=495256

-Gary

Robert, how about SDE at 10'? I am close to buying this projector and the same screen and am trying to determine proper screen size. I've been toying with 84" but 92" would be ideal.


I just finished watching an animated film (Appleseed, which is pretty incredible, BTW) and I found myself looking for SDE in a few shots, most likely beacuse of this thread. In some shots with large areas of light color, I may have been just able to see pixel structure if there was very little movement in the image. Even so, this was so minimal, it is a complete non-issue during regular watching. It just isn't noticable enough to distract one's attention from the movie.

A foot closer might make it a little easier to make out pixel structure, but even at 10' from a 92" screen, I still think this is a great projector for any home theater. Better than most.

I'd like to add one other bit of practical experience to this thread. Yesterday (Saturday), I spent nearly 9 hours at a client's house working on his dedicated home theater. Primarily working on the audio side, but the projector was on most of the day, and I did do some image tweaking with AVIA and we did do some critical evaluation of both image and sound using both test material as well as a wide variety of DVD and HD material. This projector was a DLP. After staring at it for quite a bit, I went home and fired up my rig for a fresh comparison. While the DLP got a little "blacker" on the bottom end, overall, I preferred the image from my HS51 for color, contrast, detail, and sharpness. Also, the DLP was shining on a gray Da-Lite high contrast Cinema Vision screen, so "black" should have been a little blacker than my white screen, but even so, the difference was small. To give the DLP its due, I could get closer without pixel structure being too visible, and the DLP was rather brighter when there was some ambient light. But, in the dark, I would still take the HS51 over the DLP.

Oh yeah, did I mention the DLP was a $25,000 Runco VX-5000Ci?

Thanks Robert.

I can't deal with rainbows so I am limited to LCD's. Good thing they have come so far.

I just moved into a new home and had the disappointment of my old, reliable, ISF'd-to-death Toshiba TW56X81 not being able to make it into the stairwell. My intent was always to go to a FP but it looks like that day will arrive a little sooner than I thought!

This Sony LCD projector is EXTREMELY tempting. I will be placing it in a basement where I have complete light control so it sounds like I have the right environment. My question is about the screen. The mags I read always refer to their Stewart screens and I got quoted a not-outrageous number for a 100" Grayhawk. The room is approximately 12' wide and I can make use of the entire width of the house, 60', for setting up my seating position so I think a 100" screen makes sense in terms of proportion.

Do you guys think the Grayhawk is the right screen for this projector in a light-controlled room?

I am currently using a 110" Firehawk and love the picture. I saw this pj on a greyhawk and it appeared a little dim in comparison.

It has a very punchy image.

1.
I just moved into a new home

2.
This Sony LCD projector is EXTREMELY tempting. I will be placing it in a basement where I have complete light control so it sounds like I have the right environment.

3.
Do you guys think the Grayhawk is the right screen for this projector in a light-controlled room?
1. Enoiromental change is allways nice :)

2. If you have a dark room (preferably black), no ambient light and so on consider yourself to be dazzled by the HS-50 with the right screen.

3. No the greyhawk is not for the HS-50 in a light controlled room with dark walls, ceiling, furniture and so on. The way to go there is without a doubt a white screen.
If you want a punchy picture with good colometri you could opt for the Stewart studiotek but really an Gain 1 screen should defenitely be enough at least for the sake of the punch :).

The one time you really do want a white screen is in your case in a light controlled room, if you have some ambient light or like watchin with lights on in the room and really want a grey screen the Stewart firehawk would be my next call since it keeps the peak whites at a very reasonable level and also the does not darken the colours as much as the greyhawk, allthough it will tint the colour somewhat towards the blue which is NOT wanted with the HS-50 since that would mean you will have to raise reds and the reds are the weak point of the HS-50 (red gets exhausted first when you crank up the contrast):

For a light controlled room:
- A grey screen will in all cases inflict with the colours making them less punchy.
- A grey screen will in all cases make the peak white more grey.
- A grey screen will not help the blacks as it would in a non light controlled room.

For a non light controlle room the choice is up to your taste.
Depending on the amount of ambient light you might prefer to keep the black levels but let go of some other things. Contrast is basically allways raised when using a high gain grey screen in a non light controlled room, due to the fact that it handles ambient ligth better.

When I compared Firehawk, Greyhawk RS and my current Euroscreen matte white gain 1.0 in my white living room with otherwise good light control i decided to stay with my white screen since i prefer the colours and peak whites on that one. And i allways watch movies at night when it is indeed very dark outside.
Allthough of course having chalk white walls i indeed do get quite some ambient light due to secondaty reflections but since it also acts as a living room i am tied down here.

So I had to sacrifice black level and some contrast in scenes that are dark but not "pitch black". But really even at side by side comparison the difference is not big enough at night for me sacrifice colour fidelity and peak whites so that was my choice at least. Correct or not, your own personal preference should also match but it often takes a while before seing the pros and cons.

Anyway - even if you doo choose a grey screen your eyes will get used to the less white whites and it will most likely not disturb you untill you make a side by side comparison but of course one want the best from the beginning ;)
My ranking of grey screens would be (best to worst)
- Firehawk (keeps peak white quite good and excellent with ambient light though tints colours somewhat towards blue)
- Greyhawk (a bit darker than the FH and does not supress ambient light even close to as good as the FH but does not tint colours as much towards blue as the FH)
- Carada and XUS (far to grey for me - extreme darkening of picture)

But take a look at the Stewart Studiotek and some standard white screen. The studiotek has IMO the best colours of the the white screens that i have seen that are:
- Caradas two white material (brilliant white and cinema i believe they were called)
- My euoroscreen
- 3 different less know names of screens and one "custom made with mild red tone"
- and some more that i cant remember - have been a few the last year when looking for the perfect screen ;)

Keep in mind if you go for a high hain screen you have to think of the viewing cone as well and also i think that the SD becomes more apparent with high gain screen. Basically the distance to the screen shall must be increase. For the FH a recomendation is at least 1.7 * screenwidth but preferably more if you can.
The firehawk also has a tendance to glitter sometimes in bright scenes due to the metal that is integrated in the screen material (looks like some kind of aluminum dust but i am sure there are some secret formula behind it;))


Regards
Boogieman

I just received myHS51 today and I have a few questions for you guys

mainly about black level

I am coming from a CRT to this digital, I have calibrated for all settings given in the various thread's around here including Kris's setting's

when I have a totally black scene from a movie up on the screen(like in-between scenes or the avia 0 ire pattern), my screen is lite up a hazy gray color(really bright), 100% as if you take the brightness control on your on tv set and jack it up to 100%, you get no blacks what soever

is this as good as the blacks get on this unit?? if so it is not a keeper over my CRT that gives black like you wouldn't believe

I am obviously foing something wrong because no one could deal with this black level I have

being this is my first digital, I though I would ask

all settings currently per kris's thread and greyscale has been calibrated

-Gary

Gary:

The HS51 will not do CRT-like black level. It will do CRT-like contrast, but not black at the lowest level. The only real weakness of the HS51 is the black level when the onscreen material all dark with just shades of dark gray (ANSI contrast). When there is something bright on screen, this is where the great on/off contrast range of the HS51 begins to "shine". Sorry that you are disappointed with the performance of the HS51. It isn't perfect by any stretch, just better than most, or all, other LCD projectors. It still isn't a CRT in terms of pure black.

komoman:

I agree with Boogiem, a moderate gain white screen such as the Stewart Studiotek 130 or the Da-Lite Cinema Vision (costs less than Stewart) is probably the best choice for the HS51 in a light controlled environment. At most, I would recommend a light gray screen such as the Da-Lite high contrast Cinema Vision (1.1 gain) for a bit better black level (very little bit).

I am obviously foing something wrong because no one could deal with this black level I have
Not being there it is hard to say since I can't see it, but the on/off CR is limited on these. Since you have AVIA I assume that you have set the brightness so that the projector is at least trying to put out its best for black. One way to check is to put the projector in 4:3 mode and make sure that the "black" in the image is as black as the part outside the 4:3 area.

If you have it setup right and still think that "no one could deal with this black level" then I would wonder if you've ever been to a real theater. :) The HS51 should have more on/off CR than the vast majority of film presentations.

--Darin

Gary
Is your IRIS set to auto? On your remote try pressing the preset Dynamic|Standard|Cinema. There should be a significant difference in the black level between Dynamic which is IRIS-Off and Cinema which is IRIS-AUTO.

There is a difference in full black between a CRT and the HS51. If you see a similar drastic difference in very dark scenes, not total black, there is something wrong with your setup/unit.

I am on the road, can someone else walk Gary through his setup?

Gary,
You might consider an ND filter, to reduce total light output, as you have a fairly small screen (79" diagonal, from an earlier post). I imagine that the picture is quite bright overall right now. I am using a Firehawk 110" diagonal.
I have had my HS51 for several days, and also still have my HS20 up. I had a Mits 73903 for five years, and do enjoy blacker blacks (duvutyne treatment). The HS 20 has ~850 hrs, so 50-60% of the original bulb brightness remains, and I had a color filter added, further reducing light output. Low lamp, iris on. IMX lens.
Out of the box, the HS51 has deeper blacks, and a much higher total brightness capability.
I am considering an ND filter, just to see how it helps, as I almost squint in bight scenes, so I won't mind sacrificing maximum brightness.
I defocused slightly, and SD doesn't seem to be a problem. I may add the IMX, just to see what happens.
Interestingly, the HD Net test pattern (1080i), is sharper on the HS 20 using 720p, and the HS 51 is sharper using 1080i. Both HDMI.
FWIW
Paul

Guys Black level has been the deal breaker for me on this unit, it didn't take long for me to find out, my unit was calibrated for over 3 hours via all information in this thread, everything including greyscale, everything is set correctly

while mixed scene stuff looked great, when it came time for black level with entirely dark stuff my CRT has ruined me I am affraid

I just realized how important black level is too me and sadly the HS51 is not going to deliver the goods for me in that area

well that was quick, back to my 200lb beasts, I was so set on trying a digital for a while

-Gary

while mixed scene stuff looked great, when it came time for black level with entirely dark stuff my CRT has ruined me I am affraid

I just realized how important black level is too me and sadly the HS51 is not going to deliver the goods for me in that area
I can understand that, but I'm sorry to hear that this didn't work out for you. I am seriously curious though, do you ever go to real commercial theaters? I still find your comment earlier interesting as it implies that nobody could watch film with film projection with their normal on/off CRs, as they are even lower.

I'm sure there are still plenty of people on the CRT forum who would like to know your impression of the SDE. And I would still be curious about the halo effect and whether you see a noticable improvement with the HS51 there.

--Darin

Darin I haven't been to a real movie theater since I started with serious CRT about 5 years back, no joke over 5 years, I think I may have went to a James bond in there somewhere, thats it

yep no halos and intrascene stuff was better blacks and contrast than the Barco, no doubt about it there, but black level is just not happening for a guy like me who has used CRT only for 7 years or more

-Gary

Hmm. This was on my new short list (read my thead in the 3500 and up forum) The black was really that bad with dark scenes? I wonder if its the same, worse or better then my Hitachi. I may still get one in and gie it a whirl. Black level is critical for me coming from the Hitachi. I want more then it has.

There has to be something wrong with my HS51

I have this menu setup:

Iris to Auto
Mode to cinema with contrast at 70 and brightness at 55
black level off
gamma off
low lamp mode
calibrated greyscale

there is no way in hell there should be this large of a difference between black level on this unit and a CRT

I would say 75% difference, there is no black, when I put up a 0 IRE test pattern on the HS51 it looks like I would say a 25 to 30% IRE pattern on my CRT

I will have to contact Sony I guess

I have a simple question for anyone has this unit, it would help me out alot, put up a 0 or 10 IRE test pattern or a complete black in a movie, make the image smaller than your screen using the zoom lens and tell me how much of a difference there is between the empty screen border and the actual black image??, a screenshot would be even better

If this is the norm for this unit, the folks that emailed me and dumped their Barco 808 CRT's for the HS51 must be on some good crack

-Gary

I wonder if your iris is stuck?

Mr Iris is moving, I am sitting 1 foot from the pj in my test posistion at this time and I can just barely here it sometimes

I will go out on a limb and say there is no way this poor of black performance is the norm, there is something wacky here

If someone could answer my question below, this would confirm with me, boy this would be a huge help:

put up a 0 or 10 IRE test pattern or a complete black in a movie, make the image smaller than your screen using the zoom lens and tell me how much of a difference there is between the empty screen border and the actual black image??, a screenshot would be even better


I am assuming you have a completly black HT room with no lights of anykind, equipment ETC
if you answer this query, if not please let us know

My thanks to anyone who could help with this

-Gary

Gary,

I'm not sure the black level is out of line on your HS51. I tried 2 different HS51's over a 2 month period and both would provide enough light to comfortably move around the room when displaying a 0 IRE screen.

Gary, I have noticed a big difference in black levels based on input. When I use my HDMI input, I get really good blacks. When I use the component inputs, I can only get it down to a dark grey.

1. Are you using the HDMI input?
2. Has anyone else out there experienced the same thing ... or do I have a bad unit (or just cheap 30' component cables vs the 30' hdmi cable)?

Friar

Hrmpffh...I am not sure i dare asking this question :)
Have you set the DVD player to studio levels? (guess it was allready but better to ask than dump a fine PJ due to a simple switch).

Otherwise try this out to test the lowest possible black level.
Disconnect the video sources to the HS-50 and start the PJ.
Now it should display a "as black as it gets" picture on the screen (Iris shall close as you disconnect the source with an audible "click")
If it does not I guess you are simply used to the wonderfull blacks of CRT
that is better than the HS-50 but not by light years better as it sounds on your input.

Of course the smaller the picture you project the worse the black level on a LCD or DLP PJ. Some light allways passes through.

Could be a broken unit too of course but it is far fetched.
Did you not ever look at the machine in a store before buying it?

Regards
Boogieman

Gary

PM me your phone number and I will call you tonight and walk through it. It sounds like some of your settings might be off. We can try and work it out before it goes bye bye. While I don't think an all black scene is as dark as a CRT can get, I wouldn't catorgorize this PJ as having horrible blacks. Maybe I can help.

Thanks for the input on the screen, folks, very useful information!

Can somebody help me find "Kris's settings" that I keep seeing referenced? This thread is now 150 pages long and the thought of that kind of hunt for the needle gives me a headache! :eek:

I'm guessing as it's a digital projector these are fairly universal settings that will get you close on grayscale, etc.

Thanks again. :cool:

Kris you don't have to call me, that will cost you a small furtune, I can call you or email or something, I have you email, I will contact you

I have done a proper greyscale calibration and have some interesting results, my greyscal calibration only covered the 20 ire and 100 ire windows, this is the quick way for me to get a decent looking greyscale before I head into it deep

I got 6530K on the 20ire pattern and 6610K on the 100ire pattern, this is the best I can do

but this per the meter greyscale results in a image that is seriously lacking in blue, I mean it is obvious here, this goes back to my blue haze, this blue haze is always over the image and can be seen in the blacks even adjusting the bias parameters around to extremes does not change this, something is funky

My unit also has a almost(but not quite) 2 pixel red alignment issue, the blue is even worse resulting in a huge green swipe down the left hand side, after all that the image looks pretty good still

Last night I set him up per Kris's setting and then did a greyscale, I then focused up the best as possible and then slightly in the correct direction (the opposite direction results in a unwanted effect) defocused the image, I mean slightly, the results image is still razor sharp and is smooth as hell, with no digital issues

Bikini Destinations episodes from HDNet have been viewed thousands of times on my Barco CRT, they have never came this close to the HS51 in color/clarity and contrast

I am amazed at HD material on this unit, but then the black level hits me in the face

This projector would prolly be a keeper if the black level could be improved, or even better if something was wrong with the unit

here is a pic I have made that exactly shows my black level issues, greyscale has no effect on this blue black, nor does the brightness control, this is with my HS51 shooting a image smaller than my screen with a 0 IRE pattern up, this is identical to how it looks, basically no black leve at all

even with a real bright image with a dark alley or area, it is washed out and has no detail, stuff like black tuxedos that don't take up a large part of the image look pretty good, I am stumped

http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/blacklevel.jpg

-Gary

Can somebody help me find "Kris's settings" that I keep seeing referenced? This thread is now 150 pages long and the thought of that kind of hunt for the needle gives me a headache!
See the much shorter What I know and don't know about the Sony HS51 thread. I think it contains what you want.
You might also want to checkout the UNofficial Sony VPL-HS50/1 tweak thread which contains some other people's settings.

but this per the meter greyscale results in a image that is seriously lacking in blue, I mean it is obvious here, this goes back to my blue haze, this blue haze is always over the image and can be seen in the blacks even adjusting the bias parameters around to extremes does not change this, something is funky

My unit also has a almost(but not quite) 2 pixel red alignment issue, the blue is even worse resulting in a huge green swipe down the left hand side, after all that the image looks pretty good still

Sounds like exchange time. I also went from a CRT to the HS51 and although the HS51 blacks are not as black as CRT, they are not blueish. I would describe them as charcoal gray, sort of like a flat black wall with some light on it. My mis-alignment is less than 1/2 pixel which I find tolerable. See if your dealer will let you exchange it for another unit.

My settings are a decent starting point but color, contrast and brightness will certainly need to be adjusted since all DVD player outputs are slight different, regardless of output.

I really wish I could come by and help you Gary. I don't have any hint of blue in my blacks. I would go more with the charcoal gray with a pure black screen. I am thinking of trying out a ND filter to see what that will do for me.

But the absolute black is as good or better then the Dwin HD-700 I had in this same room sometime ago. Same screen, but blacks weren't that great with the DWIN. I knew that absolute black would be better with your Barco since CRTs can literally turn off, but blacks should look as good or better everywhere else.

I am actually starting to like this pj, with better blacks and some tweaks and maybe a screen change, I think I could actually live with it over my CRT on HDTV video material, with Film material sadly my Barco has to stay, the HS51 I slightly preferred with HDTV video material, with film material it is to digital looking for me and black level is not where it should be

I would love to keep the unit for HDTV viewing but I bought it to replace my Barco which it cannot, so it's off to videogon :(

Thanks for everyones help with this PJ, it was a fun experiment comparing it to my Barco

my 10 page thread is over on the CRT forum comparing them both:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=551660&page=1&pp=30

-Gary

See the much shorter What I know and don't know about the Sony HS51 thread. I think it contains what you want.
You might also want to checkout the UNofficial Sony VPL-HS50/1 tweak thread which contains some other people's settings.


Thanks! Bookmarked.

As most LCD or Plasma TVs, you should not play video games on them because of Burnt-in images. How about this projector? I am thinking about connecting my XBox and PS2 to it, but not really sure I should do this.

LCD and DLP are not suseptible to "burn-in". Burn-in is the result of uneven wear of phosphors. Therefore, Plasma and CRT displays are subject to burn-in.

Since this isn't a bright PJ unless you want to run in high bulb mode, I would suggest something like a X3 or 4805 if the PJ is going to be used a lot for gaming. Brighter image and less expensive. Just FYI.

komoman:

I agree with Boogiem, a moderate gain white screen such as the Stewart Studiotek 130 or the Da-Lite Cinema Vision (costs less than Stewart) is probably the best choice for the HS51 in a light controlled environment. At most, I would recommend a light gray screen such as the Da-Lite high contrast Cinema Vision (1.1 gain) for a bit better black level (very little bit).

Good to read your posts again Robert, and thanks for the info. Took me a minute but it dawned on me after a few minutes I remembered your name from the "Good Old Days" of the HT Forum, before the signal-to-noise ratio got way out of whack.

The Da-Lite screens are very interesting. From the number of you using and recommending them it seems like they are every bit as good as the Stewart screens and less expensive.. that's a combo I really like!

The overall value of this projector is making this practically a no-brainer for me. Thanks again to all here for your input!


Edit: Read before you post dummy... sorry folks, didn't realize asking for recommended dealers was a no-no as well. I will contact Da-Lite directly.

komoman,
email Da-Lite with your questions about online etailers and local retailers for their screens. Excellent customer service with prompt turn-around. They will also send you samples if you want to try them first.

LCD and DLP are not suseptible to "burn-in". Burn-in is the result of uneven wear of phosphors. Therefore, Plasma and CRT displays are subject to burn-in.

Thank you for this. I have a DLP rear projection TV, and I can't remember who told me that to avoid burnt-in, I can't play games on it. Thanks for clearify this.


Since this isn't a bright PJ unless you want to run in high bulb mode, I would suggest something like a X3 or 4805 if the PJ is going to be used a lot for gaming. Brighter image and less expensive. Just FYI.

I will use this system for Movies the most. Do not play games that much anymore. :-)

komoman:

I believe our hosts at AVS are dealers for all of the screen companies. The best service and prices in the bussiness. Contact one of the sales staff.

Pip

I've been reading about this pj and have a question that I am unsure about. If I use it with a Iscan HD+ via HDMI NOT VGA will I be able to send native resolution without it trying to rescale again? It seems that the udated pj you cannot defeat scaling so this may render the Iscan moot. Please advise.

komoman:

I believe our hosts at AVS are dealers for all of the screen companies. The best service and prices in the bussiness. Contact one of the sales staff.

Pip

A few clicks and pages read later that dawned on me.. and I've already exchange a couple of e-mails with Jason. Thanks!

I am experiencing a noticible difference in quality between HDMI and component. With component, the black seems to be more gray, and the picture doesn't seem to be as clean.

My comparison is using the same dvd player (it's a toshiba that has both component and hdmi outputs).

Is this something that everyone else sees ... in other words, it's just the difference between component (analog) and HDMI (digital)?

If I shouldn't be seeing this difference, could the cause be the type of component cable I'm using? It's an el-cheapo brand 30' long component cable that I bought for $30.00 on e-bay.

Any help and insight would be appreciated.

Friar

I am experiencing a noticible difference in quality between HDMI and component. With component, the black seems to be more gray, and the picture doesn't seem to be as clean.

My comparison is using the same dvd player (it's a toshiba that has both component and hdmi outputs).

Is this something that everyone else sees ... in other words, it's just the difference between component (analog) and HDMI (digital)?

If I shouldn't be seeing this difference, could the cause be the type of component cable I'm using? It's an el-cheapo brand 30' long component cable that I bought for $30.00 on e-bay.

Any help and insight would be appreciated.

Friar

I would absolutely expect there to be a different. How much of a difference and what the differences are will vary by DVD player, but there will always be a difference. With component's analog signal there are tons of variables in the equation, including the cable itself and the processing applied by the projector to get it back to a digital signal and displayed. With a digital signal being fed to the projector you're providing a signal which will require the least alteration by the projector to be displayed.

Is this something that everyone else sees ... in other words, it's just the difference between component (analog) and HDMI (digital)?



No, its just the equipment and cables you are using.

With some DVD players you get better blacks from Component then DVI. Samsung 841 for example!

A few clicks and pages read later that dawned on me.. and I've already exchange a couple of e-mails with Jason. Thanks!

Jason helped me with a new Stewart StudioTek 130. It arrives on tuesday!

Jason helped me with a new Stewart StudioTek 130. It arrives on tuesday!

Well it's time to figure out the screen, cause my new toy shipped today, should have the HS51 early next week!

And now the real fun begins.

I am experiencing a noticible difference in quality between HDMI and component. With component, the black seems to be more gray, and the picture doesn't seem to be as clean.
Did you calibrate contrast and brightness for each input? If not, this might account for the difference you see in black. With my DVD player and Avia I got a brightness setting around 35 over Component. It is around 50 over HDMI. If I used 50 for Component the blacks would look much more gray.

One nice thing about HDMI is that it doesn't seem to need as much tweaking as analog inputs. On my setup the default 50 settings for Brightness, Hue and Color were all very close to what Avia indicated they should be. I had to turn down the contrast, but I have a small 1.5 gain screen and the image was just too bright at the default.

I've been reading about this pj and have a question that I am unsure about. If I use it with a Iscan HD+ via HDMI NOT VGA will I be able to send native resolution without it trying to rescale again? It seems that the udated pj you cannot defeat scaling so this may render the Iscan moot. Please advise.
Some people reported getting 1:1 pixel mapping using the Iscan HD+ to HDMI in the pre-blanking fix units. However they still got the blanking so some of the image was cropped (black pixels around the edge) and it was a different size than the other inputs. In the post blanking fix units 720P to HDMI has about 3% overscan, which means the HS-51 must be scaling the image up to provide the overscan. No one has reported a way to get 1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI with the post fix units, and it is unlikely anyone will.

Whether or not this renders the Iscan moot is a judgement call. I don't have one so I don't have an opinion, but I think others have reported that it's still better than just using the internal scaler. If you just want to watch DVDs, a good upscaling DVD player would be a cheaper solution. But if you want to use other SD sources, it might be worth it.

I have a fixed install DVI cable (40 feet) for my HS51. It has a DVI/HDMI converter on the projector end, and is DVI to my HTPC. Given the problems with 720p relative to 1:1 mapping, I understand based on my reading of this thread that there is no easy fix other than to use VGA. Although I may be able to add a VGA cable, I don't want to bother IF I can simply put a DVI/VGA adapter on one end of the DVI cable (I have a Lindy cable) and connect to VGA off my HTPC, and put another DVI/VGA adapter on another end of the DVI cable to connect to the projector. This seems too simple a solution -- has anyone done this? Comparing it to the cost of a Dtronics DVI to VGA box, I would rather do this if it is feasible. Thoughts?

Ross

I have a fixed install DVI cable (40 feet) for my HS51. It has a DVI/HDMI converter on the projector end, and is DVI to my HTPC. Given the problems with 720p relative to 1:1 mapping, I understand based on my reading of this thread that there is no easy fix other than to use VGA. Although I may be able to add a VGA cable, I don't want to bother IF I can simply put a DVI/VGA adapter on one end of the DVI cable (I have a Lindy cable) and connect to VGA off my HTPC, and put another DVI/VGA adapter on another end of the DVI cable to connect to the projector. This seems too simple a solution -- has anyone done this? Comparing it to the cost of a Dtronics DVI to VGA box, I would rather do this if it is feasible. Thoughts?

Ross

Yes you can use your idea, as long as you can send out an anolog signal over the DVI out of the HTPC. Verify that and yes you can!

Yes you can use your idea, as long as you can send out an anolog signal over the DVI out of the HTPC. Verify that and yes you can!

I don't follow. I would like to connect the DVI adapter to the VGA out on my video card, connect the other end of the adapter to the DVI cable, and then connect the DVI cable to a DVI/VGA connector which is connected to the VGA port of the HS51. The computer's DVI port would not be used at all. The only thing I would be doing is using the adapters to remap the DVI connectors to make the computer/projector think they are connected via VGA cable. The problem is that I can't seem to find DVI-D to VGA adapters -- they all appear to be DVI-A or DVI-I.

Ross

The problem is that I can't seem to find DVI-D to VGA adapters -- they all appear to be DVI-A or DVI-I.

Ross
Because they don't exist. DVI cables support analog video, but only the analog pins, which are not in a DVI-D cable, but only in a DVI-A or DVI-I connector.

As such you won't find any adapters that connect VGA to the pins in a DVI-D cable.

Because they don't exist. DVI cables support analog video, but only the analog pins, which are not in a DVI-D cable, but only in a DVI-A or DVI-I connector.

As such you won't find any adapters that connect VGA to the pins in a DVI-D cable.

That makes sense, although I am not sure the conclusion follows. DVI-D supports only digital video solely by virtue of the fact that it does not have the analog pin combination. There is nothing preventing an adapter that would change the pinout on a DVI-D cable into a VGA pinout. The wire is there; it is just a question of making sure the right pins are connected. But, I understand that there is no market for that product (which explains why it is not made), and I am not sure I want to make my own...I might just run a VGA cable...I wish I had purchased a DVI-I cable...but I just checked, and it is DVI-D.

Ross

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but I want to know if anyone has used the hs51 on a 10 to 12 foot wide screen. My main concern is whether or not the image will be bright enough. I would be using it in a totally light controlled room.

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but I want to know if anyone has used the hs51 on a 10 to 12 feet wide screen. My main concern is whether or not the image will be bright enough. I would be using it in a totally light controlled room.

I've seen Sony hs50 on 8 foot wide screen (gain 1) in totally controled room (dark grey walls) and normal operating mode. Picture was very good but I wouldn't go any larger then 8 feet. The brightnes was just adequate, not too bright not too dim (dark scenes were little on the dark (dim) site). So if you want to go 10 to12 feet wide with this projector you'll need high gain screen like Vutec Silverstar or Da-lite Hi-power. Also keep in mind that this screens have quite narrow viewing cone (and tends to have some color shift also worse black levels ). So if you want to get 2-3 gain you have to sit very near the source (projector).

Maybe now is not a good time to buy a new projector couse in two to three months new ones will come out. Prices of Sony hs-50 in Germany are lowering every day (around 2000$ now), Panasonic ae700 and sanyo's Z3 are much, much lower and price are still falling. So I'd suspect that some very good LCD projectors are on the way (with new D5 panel) at very reasonable prices. Some roumors indicate projectors with very high contrasts (like Sony or higher) or even 1080p panel. If you can't wait I'd consider Toshiba MT700 or Benq PE7700 DLP projector (if your not sensitive to rainbows). They are both very bright projectors but the on/off contrast on them is not so good (1450:1 when calibrated at 6500K "from www.cine4home.de").

Hope this helps

That makes sense, although I am not sure the conclusion follows. DVI-D supports only digital video solely by virtue of the fact that it does not have the analog pin combination. There is nothing preventing an adapter that would change the pinout on a DVI-D cable into a VGA pinout. The wire is there; it is just a question of making sure the right pins are connected. But, I understand that there is no market for that product (which explains why it is not made), and I am not sure I want to make my own...I might just run a VGA cable...I wish I had purchased a DVI-I cable...but I just checked, and it is DVI-D.

Ross

Ross,

This will not work! VGA is analog. DVI-D is digital. You would need a processor that converts from digital->analog on that cable. This is would be a processor and not a cable!

The problem with using VGA is that you might loose your signal or get it severely downgraded if a HDCP program is being broadcast. Only DVI and HDMI with HDCP capabilities can properly handle this special situation.

So it's either get 1:1 mapping with VGA input, but loose HDCP capatibility
Or Get HDCP and suffer 3% overscan.

I know that sucks, and it is the only thing holding me back from purchasing this puppy right now.

I'm going to wait for next generation Epson or Sony and hope they fix some of these issues.

Ross,

This will not work! VGA is analog. DVI-D is digital. You would need a processor that converts from digital->analog on that cable. This is would be a processor and not a cable!

A processor would be necessary only if going from DVI on the video card to VGA on the projector (or VGA on video card to DVI on projector). All I was trying to do is VGA to VGA, and just using the DVI cable to transfer an analog signal. If an adapter using the right pinout was made...it should work...cable is cable, isn't it?

The problem with using VGA is that you might loose your signal or get it severely downgraded if a HDCP program is being broadcast. Only DVI and HDMI with HDCP capabilities can properly handle this special situation.

So it's either get 1:1 mapping with VGA input, but loose HDCP capatibility
Or Get HDCP and suffer 3% overscan.

Good point. Since I was only going to use for HTPC, this would not be an issue. And, this is precisely why my HD satellite receiver is connected via component, not HDMI.


I know that sucks, and it is the only thing holding me back from purchasing this puppy right now.

I'm going to wait for next generation Epson or Sony and hope they fix some of these issues.

Understood. I get lots of enjoyment watching HD and DVD's, so this is merely a hiccup. In fact, even via HDMI, DVDs through the HTPC look great (except for the overscan issue...) It was disappointing because my old HS20 did not have this problem -- 1:1 via DVI was sharp. I hope Sony figures this out.

Ross

A processor would be necessary only if going from DVI on the video card to VGA on the projector (or VGA on video card to DVI on projector). All I was trying to do is VGA to VGA, and just using the DVI cable to transfer an analog signal. If an adapter using the right pinout was made...it should work...cable is cable, isn't it?
I understand what you are proposing and it would probably work, but I have never seen an adapter which can do this. You might be able to make them yourself with the right connectors and cable. Another possible issue is whether the conductor size and shielding in your DVI cable is adequate for a long analog connection. Even if you get a connection, the image quality might not be good. Probably the only way to find out is to try it.

I have been speaking with Kris over on the CRT forum about the HS51, here are a few posts of mine over there, could I get anyone to comment on the 2 test scenes I mentioned in the post, here are the scene test exerpts I mentioned over there:

-------

In the film "The Replacement Killers" about 20 mins into the Film
Fat goes to visit Sorvino in that ****** apartment building to get fake papers, when he is walking in the hallways before he gets to her apartment the blacks in the shadows of the hallways are washed out and smokey looking with a blue haze, can someone please test this on their HS51 and report to me??

can anyone confirm with me "the replacement killers" scene I discussed, i would love to hear of what it looks like on other folks setups, what about the scene in "Star Wars A New Hope" where the imperial guys are sitting in the control room and they see the pod shoot out that carries R2D2 and 3PO and they say "look another pod, blah blah hold you fire, it has no life forms on board"
how does this scene look on HS51 setups, on mine the black is totally grey, basically no black at all

------

If anyone could comment on these scenes I mentioned in my CRT forum posts and the black level on them on their HS51 setup that would help me out alot, heck even some screenshots??

I want to confirm my unit is functioning properly before I totally give up on it

My unit ahs been fully calibrated with starting of Kris's setting he posted and then tweaking for everything including a full greyscale setup

Again this would be a huge help to me, Thanks

-Gary

I want to apologize as I have been away from this thread for a while enjoying my projector. I was an early purchaser of the HS-51 and I put the crop fix patch info aside for awhile as I was going on vacation this summer. Well, my vacation is coming and I intended to send my projector in for the "fix"

My question is, a while back I read a few posts from folks stating if they had it to do over again they would not send their units in for the "fix" as it returned with more issues than it went out with i.e. lens shift and panel alignment issues.

What is the consensus now? send or not to send? Also, were to Laredo or San Diego?

Thanks for the input!!

If anyone has any comment on those 2 black level test scenes I would appreciate any feedback

but I think I have a bum unit anyway and my dealer does not accept returns on projectors with bulbs, they say to take it up with Sony :mad:

my unit has these problems, the list is a mile long :mad:

HDMI input cuts in and out

I have a huge dust blob at the top of the screen, 5 inches in diameter and it is bright blue

my red panel alignment is off almost 2 pixels to the right and 1 pixel to the north

my blue panel alignment is off OVER 2 pixels to the left and under 1 pixel to the north

I have a blue haze over my entire image that is destoying the black level, it cannot be corrected via greyscale/brightness/contrast/gamma/color controls nor any service parameters

does anyone have any suggestions as to who to talk to at Sony and demand A replacement unit from them??, if this isn't a lemon of a unit, then there never was one, what the heck good would repair do for this piece of junk??

yet again another item to add to my list of Failed and Lemon HT gear, guess what?? every piece on that list has had the Sony logo on it, I kid you not!!! :(

I am so disappointed, it will take forever to get another working unit in :mad:

-Gary

Gary,
Sorry for all of your trouble. You should really push your dealer and tell them that the unit is basically DOA. Perhaps they can replace it? I personally would not be happy with anything less. I hope that you can get a unit that works as it should. I have been waiting to hear your comments on this unit and after I read your inital comments was kind of let down at the performance you saw from it.

Best of luck to you.

"Star Wars A New Hope" where the imperial guys are sitting in the control room and they see the pod shoot out that carries R2D2 and 3PO and they say "look another pod, blah blah hold you fire, it has no life forms on board"
how does this scene look on HS51 setups, on mine the black is totally grey, basically no black at all
-Gary

Gary, we were watching revenge of the Jedi (#6 for the 1 non Star Wars fan) last night. Lots of black and space scenes. The HS51 looked great. Definately better blacks than my SMNART II moded VW10HT. Both screens are StudioTek 130's. I was running the signal via component at 480p.

I have to run the HDMI across the room and up the wall still. (Next week's project, run the HDMI through the ceiling). It does look even better via HDMI but part of that is the 720p from the 3910.

I would never compare the deepest CRT blacks to the HS51, but it is the best I have seen, very acceptable and it does compare very well to the < $10,000 DLP's I have seen.

See if you can put the screws to your dealer and get another unit. Sounds like you got one that does not measure up.

Thanks guys, the dealer will not accept a return per their policies on their website, I was going to purchase this pj from o*necall but they have the exact same policy

Can anyone comment on the 2 scenes I enquired about above??

-Gary

Gary:

Neither scene looks as you describe it on my rig. Here's a couple of pics to try to give you some reference. Note, my camera makes these a bit darker than they really are. Blacks are good on this pj, but not that good ;). Also, the color balance from tha camera is not quite right. The shot of Chow is not that green on my screen.....

http://bellsouthpwp.net/i/a/iamcuriousgeorge/images/IMG_0069.JPG

http://bellsouthpwp.net/i/a/iamcuriousgeorge/images/IMG_0070.JPG

what about the scene in "Star Wars A New Hope" where the imperial guys are sitting in the control room and they see the pod shoot out that carries R2D2 and 3PO and they say "look another pod, blah blah hold you fire, it has no life forms on board"
how does this scene look on HS51 setups, on mine the black is totally grey, basically no black at all
-Gary

I checked the scene on my HS51. The interior of the control room is grey, but space in the scene is black. In your setup, do you see the difference between the control room interior and space? I don't have "The Replacement Killers" dvd.

Thanks Robert, Thank you very much, you are the best, or should I call you Obi ?? :), I have been enjoying your work online for many many years and I appreciate you helping me out

yep it is now confirmed 100% that I have a bum unit

here is a pic of exactly what that Star Wars scene looks like on my HS51 when viewing the screen live, no calibrating of any kind will get rid of it

http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/STARWARS.jpg

-Gary

Neo My scene looks just like my pic above, there are no blacks, everything has a greyish blueish overcast to it

I promise everyone that my settings are 100% per this thread and other threads, and that my Iris is not turned off :D

Thanks again guys, I will be giving Sony a call on tuesday

-Gary

Gary-

Your screenshot shows what my VPL-HS10 looks like...on a bad day! :) Good luck getting it fixed!