Are you serious Schwa?? :mad: no doubt you are!!

Guys over on the CRT forum I have a huge comparison thread with my Barco CRT

Darin is helping me out alot and sent me a light meter

per his instructions and setup, I got a CR of 2250 and that was with a ND filter installed at that

I bet without the ND filter the CR is down in the lower 1000's, it is just horrible

boy this as my first digital after 7 years of CRT, I thought what crappy black levels folks are dealing with :D

-Gary

Neo My scene looks just like my pic above, there are no blacks, everything has a greyish blueish overcast to it

I promise everyone that my settings are 100% per this thread and other threads, and that my Iris is not turned off :D

Thanks again guys, I will be giving Sony a call on tuesday

-Gary

Whow that look's bad. Even my uncallibrated HS50 doesn't look that bad.
And wat DVD player/connection are you using, i see a load's of block's in the image?

Your image looks like there is some light leaking inside the unit, crossing the image path blending and resulting in this much to light image.
On the other hand, i see more black detail in the image than that of Robert George, must be the camera. Positive point :)?!

Gary,

You really need to get your unit fixed - especially if you're going to sell it.

Ken

On the other hand, i see more black detail in the image than that of Robert George, must be the camera.

Indeed. I'm sure there is something like a shutter setting or something like that on my camera, but unfortunately, I know a lot more about looking at pictures than taking them :D.

I want to apologize as I have been away from this thread for a while enjoying my projector. I was an early purchaser of the HS-51 and I put the crop fix patch info aside for awhile as I was going on vacation this summer. Well, my vacation is coming and I intended to send my projector in for the "fix"

My question is, a while back I read a few posts from folks stating if they had it to do over again they would not send their units in for the "fix" as it returned with more issues than it went out with i.e. lens shift and panel alignment issues.

What is the consensus now? send or not to send? Also, were to Laredo or San Diego?

Thanks for the input!!

Anyone?

Anyone?

I think if you are happy with the unit now, and only use one type of input so no need to constantly resize the image to the screen per input. And you're panels are in line, then i would not take the risk if you ask me.

Gary,
Considering the cost of this thing, perhaps, you might seek legal advise with regard to the laws governing the vendor who sold you this unit. Web site policies or not vendors can not usurp the laws of the area in which they do business.

I have have taken the unit off the market, I am starting to like it even more, and many folks including me are certain that it is malfunctioning

I also cannot honestly sell the unit like this, even though the buyer is covered under warranty

xiphias

I want to add that the above is not a screen shot
I have carefully duplicated this image from a dvd capture screenshot from windvd

my image on screen looks identical to this image in every aspect, It took me forever to duplicate it, but it is exactly what I see on my draper m1300 screen

with bright scenes my unit looks pretty good, but in those bright scenes if there is something dark it is so washed out, it is puke inducing and of course black images like above are nasty also

I will try calling my dealer one last time on tuesday before contacting Sony

my test sources are these via both component and HDMI:

JVC 5u D-VHS deck
Dish Network 942 HDTV PVR
NeuNeo HVD-2081

no adjustments on either of them

-Gary

gary man you gotta be smoking something the hs51 has THE best blacks of any 2700$ pj out there dlp or lcd bar none you MUST have something wrong with ur pj.

I have an 84" wide screen and I have a choice of ceiling mounting my HS51 at either 98 inches from the screen or 142 inches. According to the manual, the closest it can be for my screen size is 98 inches and the farthest is 150 inches.

Does it matter where it is, or will closer (or farther) be better in terms of light output, screendoor or anything like that? I think 150 back is best in terms of seating, as the seats will be closer than that so the PJ will be out of view, but the one issue I have with the HS51 is screendoor, so if being closer would somehow reduce that, it would be worth it.

For either mounting position I will be using the vertical offset somewhat but horizontal will pretty much be dead on.

I'd use the longer throw. This narrows the light cone for more direct light on the screen. More light reflected back at the viewing area and less refelcted to the sides.

Gary

Are you certain that you have the black levels set up properly on your sources? I know that if the 5U is in the wrong mode it will clip black. Same for the Neu Neo. Have you calibrated each source individually? I used Avia Pro and DVE for the calibration of my DVD sources with Darin. I used the D-Theater version of DVE for the 5U since the levels were not quite the same and the 51 will memorize which mode to use for each input resolution. So I set up user 1 for 720P source (DVD) and user 2 for 1080i (cable and D-Theater). I copied the gray scale settings to both but did all the other adjustments using the appropriate test material. Have you done anything like this?

Yes Kris I have done that
I just posted my final comparison in the CRT forum between my CRT and the HS51, I finally calibrated and tweaked enough to get the black level looking much much better, Darin has also said to me and we both think that my unit is most likely functioning correctly, I am just so used to CRT blacks

here it is in it's full glory, thanks for reading it is very long after spending a week with my 2 pj's:

Well I fired the old CRT back up, once and for all I have made my decision to keep the Barco, I unhooked my CRT and let it sit for a week so I could view the HS51

I have put 25 hours on the unit and have watched Bikin Destinations and star wars so many times my head is spinning

first I gotta say that I have improved the black level so much on the HS51 that there is no way that It could get any better, Darin he said this to me in contacts before and I believe him now

after 25 hours of lamp time on the HS51 and viewing the same damn scenes over and over and over on

the HS51 and then on the CRT, here are my findings to end the comparison partion this thread for me at least

Last night I thought Man I think I could actually live with this HS51, after days of viewing and getting the HS51 setup properly (TO CLARIFY I MAY HAVE 30 MINS IN SETUP TIME ON THIS UNIT, MAXIMUM, MAYBE EVEN LESS THAN THAT)

Resolution/sharpness:

It is a flat out Tie between the units, the Barco and HS51 are equally sharp, no unit shows a increase of sharpness whatsoever, they are literally a dead heat, this is with the HS51 fully sharply focused, they are within 2% of each other in this area

Black Level:

The CRT stomps all over the HS51 in pure blacks, that is the end of the story

Intrascene contrast:

The HS51 while supposed to deliver much better in this field, did not give a major improvement here, It was better but not by alot, I would say 20%, if the unit had pure CRT blacks then yes this would be huge

contrast and gradients:

the CRT had a much more believable image in the fact that the HS51 did not have smooth gradients from levels of gray and black, it has a hazy digital looking gradiation of whites to blacks and greys and so forth, This is one of the biggest no-no's I find with the HS51 it does not creat a smooth looking contrast that looks like a nice CRT

convergence:

the HS51 I tested upon measuring had a 1 pixel red convergence error and a 1 1/4 blue pixel convergence error, this is somthing I would not stand for a minute on a well setup CRT unit

The HS51 also had bad convergence around the paramter of the image, much as Dave suggested, believe me this is going to happen on to some extent on any HS51, this is the nature of the beast, this is most likely a Chroma Abberation and not a convergence error

of course my CRT is perfect corner to corner

Brightness:

the HS51 is blinding bright on my m1300 draper screen, after placing the ND filter on the HS51 it came down to a level that matches my calibrated CRT, roughly equal
brightness is not a issue for either projector to me, they are perfectly fine

noise level:

the HS51 is virtually silent, almost at least, my Barco is 100% silent due to my hushbox setup

artifacts and image problems:

the HS51 has horrid pixelization and SDE at even 2.25x screen width's, this is without a doubt(for a CRT person) a deal killer, this is one of the MAIN reasons that I cannot keep this unit
The HS51 also has just a all around digital look and has that digital noise the folks have complained

about seeing, I would say at 3x screen width these issues would be no more, but who wants to do that

The HS51 had no others image issues that I could see

my barco on the other hands has horrible haloing due to not having the LC optics and also features some bad vertical raster ringing bars on the left hand side due to a bad transformer on a board somewhere, the Barco also has face slapping streaking which is very annoying, mind you all these problems can be fixed and be upgraded to a LC projector, I just wanted to lay out all the issues with both units, as I viewed them

Greyscale:

My Barco without a doubt gives out a much much much better greyscale than the HS51, the HS51 is so blue that even after a red filter is added the greyscale still does not want look correct, after calibrating the unit, I had a feeling to myself comparing to the Barco that the HS51 does not have a smooth greyscale, and it is somewhat artificial looking or phony
this goes back to my findings of the HS51 not having smooth contrast and greyscale gradients

Color:

The HS51 no doubt has wonderful colors, the reds are just wonderful, the software has the RCP color features that I was able to use to dial in the color decoder to 100% perfect specs for hue/sat for all 3 colors, never have I owned a display device that I could do this with

and boy does it show, the HS51's colors are gorgeous and right on the money

My Barco on the other hand with stock colors is just downright nasty, but I have recently been able to add color filtering to my Barco, it improved it drastically, but still the colors are not nearly as good as what the HS51 delivers, my greens are slightly Pissy for one and the reds are not nearly as saturated, without color control of any kind on my Barco the color decoder results are not nearly as good, this is plain to see in the Avia patterns, A lumagen would fix this issue right up for me

One downside is that the HS51 shows the Chroma bug much worse than the CRT unit, it is there on both but it is much more visible on the HS51

ease of use/size/heat/etc:

the HS51 kills the CRT in this matter, hands down no contest, nothing left to discuss, the CRT is a beast that requires the main seat in my Theater the HS51 is a small quite fella that could hang over my head and give back that precious seating of mine

the HS51 puts out a tremendous amount of heat, as does the CRT projector, they very well could add to a rooms temp. in a small closed in enviornment like my Theater

connections:

the HS51 kills the CRT here, it features component input, which my CRT lacks and has the much needed

HDMI input, boy I wish my CRT had these inputs

overscan:

this is one thing that really buged me about the HS51, with my DVD player connected to both units, the HS51 had over 12 pixels cropped on each side and around 5 cropped on the top and bottom, with my CRT that number is zero all around, this results in getting alot more image on screen, this is noticable when viewing 2.35:1 movies in that the bars are much smaller on the HS51 than my CRT, I do not understand why a digital like this has to have overscan

In closing, all you digital folks, you know that there is a better image out there in CRT, but in getting that better image you would have to drag a 200lb beast in your theater, make room for him, possibly giving up your main seat if you can't ceiling mount(200lb's lifted 10 feet in the air, that is real fun ), next you must hire someone to keep your unit calibrated quite often, or you may learn yourself(I have been a CRT guy for 7 years now ans still learn to this day)
most CRT's sound like a jet engine and put out a tremendous amount of heat(they really need a exhaust duct work system setup, I literally had to bust 6 inch holes in my wal to allow for this) you also in relation to the exhaust system need a hush box, this is a custom designed built piece that must be made per spec for your CRT unit, are you a handy carpenter if not figure on having it made
also be prepared to wait for CRT warmup, some units take 10 mins other take 60 mins, it all depends on the current state of all those little electronics inside the unit
wait you must also watch for burnin on those 3000$ tubes, almost forgot that one
and here's to hoping you get a 100% perfect working unit, without streaking, banding and if you can't spring for LC optics horrible haloing and deminished intrascene contrast
At any time you can break down, a part can go bad and guess what these are used units, no warranty, nothing to fall back on unless you purchase from a CRT refurbisher and that will set you back alot more bucks and even then they can be out of parts, you could be down for months as I have been before
Did I also say CRT units are dangerous, try sticking your fingers around 30 thousand volts and see how you like it, I do it quite often, but I am nuts

I think you catch my drift here, CRT units are for the ultimate full blown wacko videophile type guys why demand the Best of the Best from everything, there are so many sacrifices to be made and so much **** to put up with that you see here why that I am even doing this comparison

In the end my Barco CRT remains, until I can find a digital that can deliver me no SDE whatsoever at any viewing distance and blacks that match my CRT projector, when that happens then I have made the switch, until then I live with my big honkin tweak happy200LB beast, that just so hapens to take up my main viewing seat in my Theater

in the end I showed the 2 fully calibrated units to the ultimate test, My mother, the end all of all comparisons, and what was the result, she literally said that there was absolutely no difference whatsoever between the 2 projectors, she noted that the detail and sharpness was identical and that the HS51 had ever so slightly lighter black level on Star Wars, so theres your answer

my HS51 unit is up for sale now following this comparison, it is fully calibrated
upon receiving the unit I though there must be some stuff wrong with it, but after doing alot of reading and comparisons and research and such I found that my HS51 has black level as good as it is going to get and that the convergence is within Sony standards and is quite good considering the source is 3 LCD .73" panels
It is on videogon and will be gonig up on Ebay soon

my comparison was done on a 80" diagonal Draper Cineperm screen with m1300 fabric, seating distance of exactly 2x back, using handmade Belden cables and a HDMI cable from monoprice.com, my sources were: Dish Network 942 HDTV PVR, NeuNeo HVD-2081 and the JVC HM-DH5u D-VHS deck

The Barco Data 808s projector has had a color filtering mod done on it and the HS51 projector was used entirely with the light ND filter and the Kodak Red Color Filter

the HS51 without these filters is Totally unwatchable in my book

Hope everyone enjoyed my comparison

-Gary

Hello
Did any one have any experience with the upgrade of the sony hs50/51 Firmware from 1.01 to 1.02, regarding to the 720P problem?
Is it really solve the problem?

Thank you

Yoav

in the end I showed the 2 fully calibrated units to the ultimate test, My mother, the end all of all comparisons, and what was the result, she literally said that there was absolutely no difference whatsoever between the 2 projectors, she noted that the detail and sharpness was identical and that the HS51 had ever so slightly lighter black level on Star Wars, so theres your answer -Gary

and in that comment from your Mom we see the embodiment of us AVS'ers. This is a hobby and a passion.

My neighbor (Who is always out on his latest boat toy on the lake) thinks I am nuts. Every rainy day and all winter (When I am in Wisconsin and not Florida) I think HE is nuts...:D

Thanks for the awesome review and for having the patience to stick with the calibration of the HS51. I know I am satisfied with it for the exact reasons you stated about the Barco. I'll take my 99.9% and go home and watch movies.

cheers!

I have a Barco 808 hanging in front of my HS51 still to this day and the difference in black level while obvious is nowhere near as apparent to me as for you. I have said numerous times that it is not the black level that bugs me with the HS51, its the digital artifacts inside 1.75xwidth from the screen. The only times that I notice the black level difference is on fade to black scenes. Anything with light in it they have similar apparent contrast. This is probably because the whites are actually white on the HS51.

Brian

I have a Barco 808 hanging in front of my HS51 still to this day and the difference in black level while obvious is nowhere near as apparent to me as for you.
Do you have "Star Wars: A New Hope"? If so, it would be great if you could tell us whether the scene that Gary posted above on your HS51 looks like it does above. I don't want to assume it will, or that it won't and since you have an 808 also, it would be interesting to hear your opinion.

--Darin

Darin I actually got the HS51 looking a little better before I boxed him up for good, I updated my Star Wars shot to show exactly what I see on the HS51

Lots of folks have said to me that I prolly have my Barco setup to crush blacks a little for the ultimate black level, that I prolly do and it is what I prefer

I always set my black level per the black pluge pattern, if I set to the half white screen pluge pattern it would give a drastically different black level

I LOVE MY BLACKS!! more than anything :D

maybe I will change when I update to a LC CRT in the coming weeks

-Gary

Kris/anyone,

How many feet is your projector throw for your 7x" screen? At proj central the throw specs indicate I cannot do 10' to a 84" screen without reducing lumens by going to a <1.0 gain screen.


Thanks

The calculate has the pj as 1200ANI(high lamp mode) in their equation, but for most of us who wants better pq, we use the cinema mode (low lamp mode), which has around 240ANI when fully collaborated. So a lot of users needs to use a high gain (1.5+) screen to bring out the best from this pj. In short, the throw distance is correctly stated but just ignore the screen recommandation. :D

Craige17 -

My light meter (Sekonic 505Cine) measured 50-60% more light output at the closest range of the Sony's throw than the longest. While it's true that the light cone shape changes, and if you're using a high gain screen you can reduce hotspotting by backing the projector away, these measurements were just compared from the projector, not the screen. The aperture of the lens can open up more at closer settings than further, just like a telephoto camera lens.

Since either extreme end of a zoom lens is less accurate, I'd recommend starting with the closest mounting, and then backing up the mounting location to the next stud to get the most light out of the Sony as possible. If light-bounce angle or hot spotting is a concern, then you should start long.

Chris

Thanks Chris,

Unfortunately because of ductwork I'm pretty much limited to 98 or 142 inches (with a solid 44 inches of duct in between) unless I get really creative. It's at 142 now and will try that for a few days to see what the pic looks like. Since I think it's somewhat of a dim projector to begin with, maybe moving closer will be the best bet. I'm also not sure how/if the different distances will affect screendoor....or not at all? Not really sure how that works with moving the PJ back and zooming vs. close and less/no zooming?

Thanks Chris,

Unfortunately because of ductwork I'm pretty much limited to 98 or 142 inches (with a solid 44 inches of duct in between) unless I get really creative. It's at 142 now and will try that for a few days to see what the pic looks like. Since I think it's somewhat of a dim projector to begin with, maybe moving closer will be the best bet. I'm also not sure how/if the different distances will affect screendoor....or not at all? Not really sure how that works with moving the PJ back and zooming vs. close and less/no zooming?

My guess would be that SDE will be more effected by the distance YOU are from the screen, not the projector. The closer you get, the more likely you are to see the pixel structure of a digital projector. It's like getting close to your CRT TV.. you'll see the scan lines.

Can anyone confirm that when Sharpness set to 0 the edge enhancement is totaly off, and that i'm not also unsharpen the image? Having no good test DVD's at the moment so checking it by eye, want to be sure that at 0 there is -no edge enhancement- (if my eyes are telling me the truth :)) but do not want to unsharpen the image :).

So if I swap out my Sony 10HT for the HS51 is it an upgrade or a downgrade? It sounds like many people are complaining about the light output and the SDE, however I haven't seen anybody compare it to that of the 10HT. It is better or worse?

Thanks!

So if I swap out my Sony 10HT for the HS51 is it an upgrade or a downgrade? It sounds like many people are complaining about the light output and the SDE, however I haven't seen anybody compare it to that of the 10HT. It is better or worse?

Thanks!

Silberlicht, I have both projectors. I have had the 10ht for 5 years and I just bought the HS51 for our vacation home. Both are projecting on Stewart StudioTek 130 screens. One is connected to a Denon 5800 receiver and a Denon 5900 DVD, the other uses a Denon 3805 and 3910 combination. Both have Dish HD.

I have done the SMART II on the 10HT and it uses a CC40 red filter.

The HS51 throws a better picture. The blacks are better. The 720p HDMI signal from the 3910 is the best DVD picture I have seen. Some discs are practically 3D they are so clear.

The 10HT is certainly no slouch, but 5 years of black level, contrast improvement and auto Iris have definately brought benefits to the HS51.

I am keeping the 10HT at home until I get ready to upgrade the rest of the system with HDMI switching, etc. So as long as you have done what you can for the 10HT, you still have a nice image.

There have been several posts on this subject. All posts have been in agreement. The 51 is a huge improvement from the 10HT.

I have made this upgrade from a filtered and Smarted 10HT to the 51. The 51 is slighly dimmer than the 10HT, but due to the enermous jump in contrast, it appears just as bright. SDE is no worse on the 51.

The 51 gives you a larger zoom range, lens shift, virtually silent operation, HDMI input, and an image with far superior color and contrast. Once you see the 51, you'll wonder how you ever managed to watch the 10HT.

Pip

Yes Kris I have done that
I just posted my final comparison in the CRT forum between my CRT and the HS51, I finally calibrated and tweaked enough to get the black level looking much much better, Darin has also said to me and we both think that my unit is most likely functioning correctly, I am just so used to CRT blacks.... [CUT] ]

Small world indeed,

I too used to own a Barco Data 808 and moved over to digital, wth a HS20 at first which lasted a few days and went back, then an Hitachi TX100 which I wasn't happy with and then finally a HS50 in December last year.

I now have 1400 hours on the Sony and it is an amazing machine, the colours out of the box are terrible but after a few months of tweaking and direct comparison to CRT I have the best picture I've seen from any digital unit.

I use a HTPC with TT2 and a host of image post processing, so maybe our setups are different but I have to disagree with your verdict on black detail. Setup well and its the equal of the Barco but that doesn't include absolute black level.

I have to agree with you on screen door, the HS50 is one of the worst 720p I've seen. After switching back and forth between the CRT and HS50 I really could see it quite badly. I've now defocused the image by some amount to smooth the whole thing. Can live with it now.

Colours and vkbrancy really shines over the barco which looks pastel like in presentation compared to the Sony.

Overall I sold the Barco nearly 4 months ago now and haven't looked back. For me the HS50 is a good stop gap before the next generation of 10,000+ CR DLP's arrive. The fact that it doesn't require a huge amount of space or need a big ugly box to keep it quiet are very big bonuis's in my book.

PC gaming is good also with no screen burn worries and much better looking colours and brightness.

Well after 950 lamp hours I needed to replace the bulb. The bulb still illuminated but I would guess at about 30% brightness. Not even close to the 3,000 hour manufacture estimate but that's still ok with me. This is my 3rd projector system and I am still in awe of the performance in every way. I had a backup lamp ready to go and I would suggest everyone do the same. A well known Web Based store has them in stock for $249.00

Can anyone confirm that when Sharpness set to 0 the edge enhancement is totaly off, and that i'm not also unsharpen the image? Having no good test DVD's at the moment so checking it by eye, want to be sure that at 0 there is -no edge enhancement- (if my eyes are telling me the truth :)) but do not want to unsharpen the image :).

I have been investigating the sharpness function a bit "close up" (to the screen) and this is my conclusion when running component 480p from Philly DVD963SA to the HS-50.

SHARPNESS
---------------
** Levels below 50:
The edge enhancement is made from the "inside" of the object that should be enhanced. What I mean is that the dark portions near the edges is made darker to achieve a better perceived contrast. The good thing is that the part inside this part also darkens down so that the stepping in the greyscale of the object is not destroyed, it is only lowered a bit further down the grey scale (closer to black). I do not knwo what happens to the part that is allready black though but i guess it stays at the same level since you can not go below the lowest IRE level?

** Levels above 50:
When increasing sharpness above the 50% line, the "outside" edge enhancement begings to take place. What I mean is that a contour of a brighter colour is added (often bright white) to the objects outer edges and this le looks artificial compared to if the level is kept below 50% IMHO. This is the more classic (and bad) way of enhancing sharpness but is outdated and bad when you compare the two ways of doing it.

**Sharpness conclusion:
I find a level of 20-30 to work the best still have a natural cinematic picture. If you want to crank it up its ok but do not pass 50% because then the bad stuff starts to happen and edge enhancement starts to remind of ringing noise in the picture (like if you have a very long or bad component cable). Not as bad maybe but you will notice the extra contour especially at high levels.


Best regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']I have been investigating the sharpness function a bit "close up" (to the screen) and this is my conclusion when running component 480p from Philly DVD963SA to the HS-50.

SHARPNESS
---------------
** Levels below 50:
The edge enhancement is made from the "inside" of the object that should be enhanced. What I mean is that the dark portions near the edges is made darker to achieve a better perceived contrast. The good thing is that the part inside this part also darkens down so that the stepping in the greyscale of the object is not destroyed, it is only lowered a bit further down the grey scale (closer to black). I do not knwo what happens to the part that is allready black though but i guess it stays at the same level since you can not go below the lowest IRE level?

** Levels above 50:
When increasing sharpness above the 50% line, the "outside" edge enhancement begings to take place. What I mean is that a contour of a brighter colour is added (often bright white) to the objects outer edges and this le looks artificial compared to if the level is kept below 50% IMHO. This is the more classic (and bad) way of enhancing sharpness but is outdated and bad when you compare the two ways of doing it.

**Sharpness conclusion:
I find a level of 20-30 to work the best still have a natural cinematic picture. If you want to crank it up its ok but do not pass 50% because then the bad stuff starts to happen and edge enhancement starts to remind of ringing noise in the picture (like if you have a very long or bad component cable). Not as bad maybe but you will notice the extra contour especially at high levels.


Best regards
Boogieman

Yep, i'm also trying to decide setting it to zero or a point between 0 - 25.
Did see that the enhancements are also working on the menu's :), where you can clearly see a glow around the sharpness slider when adjusting, and around text in the menu. Look's like there is already an "outside" edge enhancement under 50%?

Has anyone found discret IR remote codes for aspect ratio? All I've been able to find is the button on the stock remote that toggles through aspect ratios. Would be nice to discretely choose each mode, as with my previous projector.

Carlton:

One usually needs only three ARs: 4:3, 16:9 (anamorphic) and "zoom" (non-anamorphic widescreen). I have three user presets set up with all the settings the same for each except AR. The AR is different for each of the user presets thereby giving me three direct buttons for AR.

Pip

Just "upped" to one of these from the Panasonic.

Thoroughly impressive unit, so "CLEAR" and "VIVID".

1. I cant read this entire thread, what are the few basic tweaks for this unit? Filters, lenses, software tweaks etc. Can someone help? Also, how to get into the service menu to tweak this thing? :)

Thanks!

Just "upped" to one of these from the Panasonic.

Thoroughly impressive unit, so "CLEAR" and "VIVID".

1. I cant read this entire thread, what are the few basic tweaks for this unit? Filters, lenses, software tweaks etc. Can someone help? Also, how to get into the service menu to tweak this thing? :)

Thanks!

I know how you feel, just got mine, though unfortunately it's still in the box, life's too darned busy! :mad:

The basic settings thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=538257

How to get into the service menu:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5169612&highlight=service+menu#post5169612

The search within-the-thread feature of this forum is EXTREMELY handy, especially in threads of this size. It's your friend, learn it, live it! :p

Carlton:

One usually needs only three ARs: 4:3, 16:9 (anamorphic) and "zoom" (non-anamorphic widescreen). I have three user presets set up with all the settings the same for each except AR. The AR is different for each of the user presets thereby giving me three direct buttons for AR.

Pip

Pip, thanks!

Yep, i'm also trying to decide setting it to zero or a point between 0 - 25.
Did see that the enhancements are also working on the menu's :), where you can clearly see a glow around the sharpness slider when adjusting, and around text in the menu. Look's like there is already an "outside" edge enhancement under 50%?

Aaah - forgot to look at the menu. Good idea :)
I looked at movie material (bright skies with dark thingies in the front and also normal landscaping and faces) and here i cant see it, at least not cearly even with my face touching the screen :D . But the menu must be a great ref since its clean black on grey background.
An i guess the EE is the same in the menu as on the pic - will check l8er.

I dont know how my other modifications like IRIS open/close reg and manually calibrated RGB might affect it. I have found that a lot of parameter affects each other like high lamp mode makes colours a lot warmer for example.

Regards
Boogieman

Hey guys, I'm new to the projector world (currently have a direct view toshiba hdtv and a sony lcd 23" hdtv) so please bare with me.

I am contemplating the three following pj - 1) Benq PE7700 2) Toshiba MT-700 3) Sony HS51. I know the HS51 is LCD and the other two are DLP models. I like the lens shift capability of the HS51.

PQ-wise, are these all pretty much equal? I will be putting the PJ in a basement room that only has one small window (that will be covered).

I am very frustrated. Finally I got my media room set up. Projector is hooking up through DVI - HDMI cable. The problem is that Projector did not show the whole screen. I do not know why. The HTPC is 1280 X 720. But I can not even see the start button on the left. I thought overscan only happens on the vertical side. Is there any setting I can play with to show the whole thing? It is really annoying.

I am very frustrated. Finally I got my media room set up. Projector is hooking up through DVI - HDMI cable. The problem is that Projector did not show the whole screen. I do not know why. The HTPC is 1280 X 720. But I can not even see the start button on the left. I thought overscan only happens on the vertical side. Is there any setting I can play with to show the whole thing? It is really annoying.

Hint: VGA ;) or try 1080.

Hey guys, I'm new to the projector world (currently have a direct view toshiba hdtv and a sony lcd 23" hdtv) so please bare with me.

I am contemplating the three following pj - 1) Benq PE7700 2) Toshiba MT-700 3) Sony HS51. I know the HS51 is LCD and the other two are DLP models. I like the lens shift capability of the HS51.

PQ-wise, are these all pretty much equal? I will be putting the PJ in a basement room that only has one small window (that will be covered).


If you are not suceptable to seeing RBE the 1 or 2 will allow you to sit closer or have a larger screen. I have the 7700 now and am sending it back to get the HS51 due to RBE but it is otherwise a very nice projector.

Hint: VGA ;) or try 1080.


So, it is OverScan problem. :-( Will give VGA a try tonight

So, it is OverScan problem. :-( Will give VGA a try tonight

Ok, good luck, hope you get the image like you want, and share your finding's with us please :).
And i think you never wan't all the info from a DVD to your screen, there is sometimes loads of noise and stuff at te sides of the image on DVD, not on all, but a load have it.
But a taskbar coul'd be a plus in Windows yes :).

originally posted by rickypicky
I am contemplating the three following pj - 1) Benq PE7700 2) Toshiba MT-700 3) Sony HS51. I know the HS51 is LCD and the other two are DLP models. I like the lens shift capability of the HS51.

The Benq and Toshiba are from all reports the same projector. For a comparison to the Sony, see my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5522061#post5522061).

Pip

Ok, good luck, hope you get the image like you want, and share your finding's with us please :).
And i think you never wan't all the info from a DVD to your screen, there is sometimes loads of noise and stuff at te sides of the image on DVD, not on all, but a load have it.
But a taskbar coul'd be a plus in Windows yes :).

What is one movie you own with these problems? I use 1:1 Vga, and have no overscan from my Bravo D2, I have never seen or heard of this?

On Regular TV I see it all the time, but not on DVD's I watch

Hey guys, I'm new to the projector world (currently have a direct view toshiba hdtv and a sony lcd 23" hdtv) so please bare with me.

I am contemplating the three following pj - 1) Benq PE7700 2) Toshiba MT-700 3) Sony HS51. I know the HS51 is LCD and the other two are DLP models. I like the lens shift capability of the HS51.

PQ-wise, are these all pretty much equal? I will be putting the PJ in a basement room that only has one small window (that will be covered).


Also Consider if you can use VGA for your input if 1:1 mapping is something you desire for the Sony HS51, I'm not sure about the other two units for 1:1

So, it is OverScan problem. :-( Will give VGA a try tonight

I went to BestBuy earlier trying to buy a long VGA cable. (15 feet). They only have 10 feet ones, so, I am thinking about connecting two of those together.

The question is they carry two kinds of VGA cable, VGA and SVGA. I asked the difference between the two, the guys there said the only difference is the throughput. The VGA does have "Support up to 17" monitors" printed on the box. I do not know if I should go with VGA or SVGA. SVGA is like 3 times more expensive than the VGA ones.

Any idea? Wil two VGA ones connected together work with 1280 X 720 for like 20 feet total?

Also Consider if you can use VGA for your input if 1:1 mapping is something you desire for the Sony HS51, I'm not sure about the other two units for 1:1

Yes but keep in mind that there is absolutely no benefit to this at all in comparison to HDMI with real world viewing. Just FYI.

What is one movie you own with these problems? I use 1:1 Vga, and have no overscan from my Bravo D2, I have never seen or heard of this?

On Regular TV I see it all the time, but not on DVD's I watch

Try some DVD's on a PC, PC software players don't overscan like normal DVD Players.
I live in a PAL reg.2 country, so there could be a difference in DVD's.

One example is Shrek 2 that have some pink color lines on one side, some don't use the full width, and some are perfect from left to right.

Finding Nemo (PAL reg 2) show's line brake up's on top and bottom, but also only visible on my PC (nVDVD).

You don't see this on normal TV and DVDplayer combo, as they overscan and chop the sides.

Yes but keep in mind that there is absolutely no benefit to this at all in comparison to HDMI with real world viewing. Just FYI.

Hmm - so you are saying HDMI picture quality kicks VGA picture quality, even if VGA is 1:1 mapped and HDMI is not?
What are the benefits of HDMI that makes the picture better then?
The tests I have done with VGA (even with a lap top and a radeon 7500 card) has shown great results when it comes to 1:1 mapping but I havent done contrast and colour fidelty checks..

Have been chasing you about this quite a while now ;) and I am hoping for a small conclusion. I am considering upgrading my HS-50 to the new videoboard (without blanking) but do not want to do that if I can get at better picture over VGA on the old videoboard (firmware) OR a better picture over HDMI (1:1 map but with blanking).
From what I have read in your previous post the new videoboard offers a better contrast (from 3000 to 5500:1 I think you said) than the old one.

Just want to get it all straightened out so I can decide if i should send it to Sony or not :)

Havent seen a lot of posts where people ACTUALLY compared Before and After result when chaning video board so "help me obi one, you are my only hope" :)

Best regards
Boogieman

My guess is what Kris is saying is that 1:1 pixel mapping is of not critical to the normal viewing experience. Practically all TV's have overscan and material producers know that so the edges of the picture all around tend of have useless information.

If you're using it as a monitor for computer use then I can understand where 1:1 pixel mapping is important. Windows XP doesn't assume you're losing the pixels around the edge of your screen so you could be missing important pieces of information.

I guess the best way to sum it up is that 1:1 pixel mapping is important to some people, but not at all to others. It matters not at all to my viewing experience. And as always.. your mileage may vary!!

I guess at the end of the day it depends on what your sources are. A lot of the people using VGA in this thread aren't using what I would call great DVD players. Good yes, great no. I personally use the best DVD player on the market today for video processing, so maybe I'm a bit spoiled. When comparing HDMI to VGA, there was no benefit at all to VGA. It was not sharper by any means. Its only benefit was no overscan. Currently I am getting between 3-4% overscan, which I can live with. But I was getting slightly better blacks which lent to a bit more depth of image via HDMI. But the difference was slight at best. SO, the added investment of going VGA may not be worth it to the end user. If you are already a HTPC guy, by all means go VGA. But those already going the digital route that are thinking of going VGA and that requires some more investing, save your money.

Kris, are you using any ND or color filters at the moment, and are you still using the settings you posted in this: 'What I know and don't know about the Sony HS51' (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=538257&page=1&pp=20) thread? Was the newest unit closer to 6500K in Cinema mode compared to the older unit?
And why are you using 'Custom 1' as a base, i taught 'Custom 3' used the same values as the 'Cinema' mode uses?

And thank's for all your helpful post's at this forum. It helped me to make a good choice, so my HS50 is hanging on my ceiling now :cool:. Now the research is still on a DVD player :), waiting for some new models to compare.

I went to BestBuy earlier trying to buy a long VGA cable. (15 feet). They only have 10 feet ones, so, I am thinking about connecting two of those together.

The question is they carry two kinds of VGA cable, VGA and SVGA. I asked the difference between the two, the guys there said the only difference is the throughput. The VGA does have "Support up to 17" monitors" printed on the box. I do not know if I should go with VGA or SVGA. SVGA is like 3 times more expensive than the VGA ones.
My recommendation would be to order a good 15 foot cable online. You will get a much better quality cable for less money and avoid potential problems from having another connection. I'm not sure what they have at best buy, but my guess would be overpriced Monster cables.

Try the RAM electronics link (AVS forum sponsor) at the top of any page. pccables.com and bluejeanscable.com have also received lots of positive feedback for having good VGA cables at a reasonable price.

To answer your question, the difference between VGA and SVGA has nothing to do with monitor size, it is related to the maximum bandwidth and therefore resolution that the cables can transfer cleanly. SVGA cables typically have better shielding. If you decide to go with two cables and a connector, get the best quality 10 foot and a 6 foot SVGA you can find. Don't go with two 10 foot cables unless you really need the length. For VGA cables, shorter is better. You might also try computer stores instead of Best Buy. They are more likely to have good SVGA cables at reasonable prices.

I went to BestBuy earlier trying to buy a long VGA cable. (15 feet). They only have 10 feet ones, so, I am thinking about connecting two of those together.

The question is they carry two kinds of VGA cable, VGA and SVGA. I asked the difference between the two, the guys there said the only difference is the throughput. The VGA does have "Support up to 17" monitors" printed on the box. I do not know if I should go with VGA or SVGA. SVGA is like 3 times more expensive than the VGA ones.

Any idea? Wil two VGA ones connected together work with 1280 X 720 for like 20 feet total?

VGA did solve my problem. Thanks. I like this projector.

Kris, are you using any ND or color filters at the moment, and are you still using the settings you posted in this: 'What I know and don't know about the Sony HS51' (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=538257&page=1&pp=20) thread? Was the newest unit closer to 6500K in Cinema mode compared to the older unit?
And why are you using 'Custom 1' as a base, i taught 'Custom 3' used the same values as the 'Cinema' mode uses?

And thank's for all your helpful post's at this forum. It helped me to make a good choice, so my HS50 is hanging on my ceiling now :cool:. Now the research is still on a DVD player :), waiting for some new models to compare.

I don't know why people on here think they have to rely on Sony's settings. I used User 1 in the default as a baseline. Everything was dialed in from there. It really doesn't matter what the starting points are except for Iris Auto, Lamp Low, and gamma. We set the gray scale using a Milori Colorfacts and then used AVIA Pro do dial in all the other settings to their appropriate setting. For 1080i sources I calibrated using the 1080i D-Theater version of DVE.

Pre-done video settings only matter if you stick with them.

By the way, I have a 8 meter Bettercables Silver Serpent VGA cable that I'll sell. It was used for about 2 hours tops. This cable retails at $240. I will sell it for $160 shipped to anywhere in the continental US. PM me if you want it.

I don't know why people on here think they have to rely on Sony's settings.

I agree completely. Here are my settings I recently put together for another AVS member for his new HS-51.

1st start with the basic user controls.

Contrast = 78
Brightness = 55
Color = 45
Hue = 50
Sharpness = min
Gamma = off
Black = off
Iris = AUTO

Now onto the service menu changes for red, blue & green GAIN & BIAS.The 1st set of numbers were my factory Custom 1 settings. Of the 2nd and 3rd set of numbers, the last set of numbers has a color temp closer to 6500K.

.........Factory....Custom 1....Custom2
RG.......128..........120..............140
GG........78............65.................78
BG.......117...........75...............100
RB.......128..........100..............123
GB.......128..........128..............128
BB.......132..........128..............132

Next is my setting for using the "Dynamic Mode" with the iris OFF. I use this for sports and anytime I have kids watching with the room lighting up higher.

Contrast = 90
Brightness = 50
Color = 50
Hue = 50
Sharpness = min
Gamma = 3
Black = off
Iris = AUTO

........Custom 3....
RG.......140
GG........69
BG........87
RB.......123
GB.......128
BB.......128

You enter the service mode by pressing ENTER ENTER ^ v ENTER on the remote and then answer YES.

Now under the menu you will see a W/B, this is where you can change the HIGH MID & LOW gain/bias settings, as well as the CUSTOM 1, 2 & 3. I leave the high, mid and low set to their factory levels.

enjoy

RJ
...

VGA did solve my problem. Thanks. I like this projector.

VGA solves most problems for the Sony HS-51, hehe.

- Just adding fuel to the flame.

SOWK!

:p



P.S. Byte so there are custom settings in the Service menu you can chg and link to user 1, 2 and 3, and not affect default Cinema mode factory settings? Or if you chg the GAIN & BIAS is it set for all output modes, Cinema, user 1, User 2, User 3, so on and so forth!

P.S. Byte so there are custom settings in the Service menu you can chg and link to user 1, 2 and 3, and not affect default Cinema mode factory settings? Or if you chg the GAIN & BIAS is it set for all output modes, Cinema, user 1, User 2, User 3, so on and so forth!


When you go into Service Mode you can adjust the settings on each of the factory presets and the Custom 1, 2, 3. Custom 1 is tied to User 1, etc. So if you wanted to use the "stock" settings just leave those alone, when you press "Cinema" or what have you, it will use those settings.

(Hazy memory on the part where you can change the factory presets for Cineman, etc, but I'm pretty sure they're in the list)

I agree completely. Here are my settings I recently put together for another AVS member for his new HS-51.

1st start with the basic user controls.

Contrast = 78
Brightness = 55
Color = 45
Hue = 50
Sharpness = min
Gamma = off
Black = off
Iris = AUTO

Now onto the service menu changes for red, blue & green GAIN & BIAS.The 1st set of numbers were my factory Custom 1 settings. Of the 2nd and 3rd set of numbers, the last set of numbers has a color temp closer to 6500K.

.........Factory....Custom 1....Custom2
RG.......128..........120..............140
GG........78............65.................78
BG.......117...........75...............100
RB.......128..........100..............123
GB.......128..........128..............128
BB.......132..........128..............132

Next is my setting for using the "Dynamic Mode" with the iris OFF. I use this for sports and anytime I have kids watching with the room lighting up higher.

Contrast = 90
Brightness = 50
Color = 50
Hue = 50
Sharpness = min
Gamma = 3
Black = off
Iris = AUTO

........Custom 3....
RG.......140
GG........69
BG........87
RB.......123
GB.......128
BB.......128

You enter the service mode by pressing ENTER ENTER ^ v ENTER on the remote and then answer YES.

Now under the menu you will see a W/B, this is where you can change the HIGH MID & LOW gain/bias settings, as well as the CUSTOM 1, 2 & 3. I leave the high, mid and low set to their factory levels.

enjoy

RJ
...

A huge thanks, Bytehoven. As a relative newb to accessing service menus and adjusting grayscale, spelling it out for someone like me really helps.

My basic user controls are as you posted above. I'm currently using the Cinema mode until I can make my own custom setting.

I pulled up some grayscale ramps and windows over the weekend and by eye the 10 IRE window is slightly red. The remaining IRE levels looked OK by eye.....I know I really need a color analyzer but at least it's a start. :)

I have some newb questions which are probably self evident to experts, but it really helps me if I understand the theory of operation behind the adjustments.

1) Does the Color in the basic settings menu need to be turned off when I'm adjusting RGB gain/bias settings, or should it be left at 45?

2) What is the difference between Gain and Bias - IOW what does each actually accomplish when they are adjusted?

3) What is a "W/B" and what does the High/Mid/Low represent or mean?

4) If I visually see a problem at a particular IRE, can I adjust the RBG gain/bias to correct that problem without impacting or affecting other IRE levels that look fine?

5) I have Avia, DVE, and Silicon Optix (as yet unopened) - which do you think has the best/most accurate grayscale ramps and windows for making these adjustments?

Apologies in advance for the newb questions, but it really helps me see the big picture (pardon the pun) if I understand the basic theory behind how these adjustments work and what they mean. I don't need anyone to write a book - I'll catch on soon enough - I just need a quick primer on these basic things. Thanks in advance to you (or anyone else that chimes in to help me).

Regards,

Ed Mullen

Not wanting to read through all 150 pages of this thread, let me just ask the question: has Sony fixed the 720p problem? I'm asking because my HS20 got struck by lightning and I may need to replace it. I should find out by Friday. If Sony hasn't fixed the 720p problem, I may look at other projectors.

Thanks.

Craig

PS. It's interesting to see Ed Mullen asking for help. He's usually the one GIVING the expert advise over in the subwoofer forum. ;)

Hey Craig! Say it ain't so! I loved the presentation of your HS20! If you get this one, I'd love to see it if you'll have me again.
Gordon

Not wanting to read through all 150 pages of this thread, let me just ask the question: has Sony fixed the 720p problem? I'm asking because my HS20 got struck by lightning and I may need to replace it. I should find out by Friday. If Sony hasn't fixed the 720p problem, I may look at other projectors.

Thanks.

Craig

PS. It's interesting to see Ed Mullen asking for help. He's usually the one GIVING the expert advise over in the subwoofer forum. ;)

If you mean the problem where it put a black frame around a 720p image, yes it has been resolved. I just got my HS51 and there is no evidence of the problem. The Sony service site link (buried somewhere in this thread and I don't have it handy here at home) agreed.

Someone will almost inevitably chime in here that with the fix to the 720p problem they changed it so it does not do 1:1 pixel mapping on the HDMI input.... for MOST people that doesn't matter. For those it does bother, there are many reports that using the VGA port resolves it.

Hey Craig! Say it ain't so! I loved the presentation of your HS20! If you get this one, I'd love to see it if you'll have me again.
Gordon

Hi Gordon!

Yes, its definitely so! I lost a LOT of other stuff as well, (receiver, DVD player, computer stuff, hot tub, garage door openers, etc). I'm just glad no one was home and that we didn't have a fire. The lightning hit the top metal ridge on the roof of the house. Our neighbor saw it. She said sparks were flying and the thunder crash was instantaneous and unbelievable.

I don't know if they'll fix or replace my HS20. If I get an HS51, I'll let you know. In the meantime, if you want to see an HS51, I have a friend who has the older, pre-fix unit. He's projecting onto a 92" Silverstar screen -- very nice combo! He lives in Leola. He's my partner at work, so I'm sure he'd let us check out his pj. Let me know.

Craig

PS. Do you still have your Sanyo?

(Hazy memory on the part where you can change the factory presets for Cineman, etc, but I'm pretty sure they're in the list)

The CINEMA setting uses LOW from the W/B "white balance" menu. As long as you DO NOT adjust the LOW MID & HIGH W/B settings, the factory specs for CINEMA will be maintained.

Personally, I used up the CINEMA button location, for just one treatment under my custom W/B settings. That way I can have a quick way to get to a GAMMA enhanced version of my Custom 1 & Custom 2 settings.

1) Does the Color in the basic settings menu need to be turned off when I'm adjusting RGB gain/bias settings, or should it be left at 45?

2) What is the difference between Gain and Bias - IOW what does each actually accomplish when they are adjusted?

3) What is a "W/B" and what does the High/Mid/Low represent or mean?

4) If I visually see a problem at a particular IRE, can I adjust the RBG gain/bias to correct that problem without impacting or affecting other IRE levels that look fine?

5) I have Avia, DVE, and Silicon Optix (as yet unopened) - which do you think has the best/most accurate grayscale ramps and windows for making these adjustments?

********

1) Color should be left at standard or turned back to 45, to help keep RED from distorting under Auto Iris. You can see the distortion in some screens with alot of red, like Star Wars when Leia is programming R2D2 in the spaceship hallway, where there is excessive red lighting in the frame composition.

2) GAIn & BIAS effect opposite ends of the lumanance scale. GAIN effects the bright end and BIAS effects the dark end, although there is an interaction.

3) W/B is short for white balance, and the LOW MID & HIGH are meant to represent low, mid and high color temp values. Custom 1, 2 & 3 in their factory settings, duplicate low, mid & high. However, keep in mind there is nothing inherently LOW about the LOW W/B register. It simply has GAIN & BIAS settings dialed in for a low 6500K color temp.

4) Unfortunately, the IRE scale slips and slides together as you tweak white balance. The goal is to try and get as good a balance as possible. IMHO, IRE white balance perfection is not possible on the HS-51 because of the video processing of the Auto Iris mode. However, the numbers I posted are good enough for me, allowing me to enjoy the HS-51 until a better projector comes along in a few years.

5) I like AVIA because it's a little easier to get to the patterns. I'm sure the DVE patterns are just as good. I'm not sure the HQV disc will help in anyway, unless you are talking about a different disc. I made up some of my own IRE scales, where I could view 0-30, 0-50, 30-80, 50-80, 50-100 & 80-100. This way I could get a better sense of what a narrow IRE range was doing under Auto Iris. Still, one has to accept a balanced compromise when taking into consideration what the Auto Iris video processing will do.

My 2 sets of custom RGB W/B settings, give me a nice 6500K-ish and 7800K-ish, which have been working well. Some movies like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, really push the projector because of the artfull colorization.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on what your sources are. A lot of the people using VGA in this thread aren't using what I would call great DVD players. Good yes, great no. I personally use the best DVD player on the market today for video processing, so maybe I'm a bit spoiled. When comparing HDMI to VGA, there was no benefit at all to VGA. It was not sharper by any means. Its only benefit was no overscan. Currently I am getting between 3-4% overscan, which I can live with. But I was getting slightly better blacks which lent to a bit more depth of image via HDMI. But the difference was slight at best. SO, the added investment of going VGA may not be worth it to the end user. If you are already a HTPC guy, by all means go VGA. But those already going the digital route that are thinking of going VGA and that requires some more investing, save your money.

So what you are saying is:
If i prefer a standalone dvd player i should:
1. Buy the Denon DVD-3910 (or even better the AX1) and run HDMI 720p - instead of a bravo or likewise with VGA@720p.
2. Send my HS-50 unit in for the blanking fix (since it gives better contrast according to your old post)

Correct?

I really thought that the HDMI non 1:1 map should affect clearity since the pixels gets smeared out when you dont have 1:1 mapping (when checking single black dots on white background or a wire mesh VGA sure looks more defined but maybe not in "the big picture")

Thank you
Boogieman

********


Hi Bytehoven

Its really good to see you back in the HS-50 thread (hope you stay this time ;)) giving accurate and pinpointed information (as allways).
Just wanted to wish you welcome back after a long period without the pixel wrangler :)

Regards
Boogieman

PS. It's interesting to see Ed Mullen asking for help. He's usually the one GIVING the expert advise over in the subwoofer forum.

We can't all be experts in everything. :) I'm not afraid to ask for help in areas I don't know much about. I'm always glad to help out others, and it's great to see people like Bytehoven taking a few minutes of his time to help me out too.



1) Color should be left at standard or turned back to 45, to help keep RED from distorting under Auto Iris. You can see the distortion in some screens with alot of red, like Star Wars when Leia is programming R2D2 in the spaceship hallway, where there is excessive red lighting in the frame composition.

2) GAIn & BIAS effect opposite ends of the lumanance scale. GAIN effects the bright end and BIAS effects the dark end, although there is an interaction.

3) W/B is short for white balance, and the LOW MID & HIGH are meant to represent low, mid and high color temp values. Custom 1, 2 & 3 in their factory settings, duplicate low, mid & high. However, keep in mind there is nothing inherently LOW about the LOW W/B register. It simply has GAIN & BIAS settings dialed in for a low 6500K color temp.

4) Unfortunately, the IRE scale slips and slides together as you tweak white balance. The goal is to try and get as good a balance as possible. IMHO, IRE white balance perfection is not possible on the HS-51 because of the video processing of the Auto Iris mode. However, the numbers I posted are good enough for me, allowing me to enjoy the HS-51 until a better projector comes along in a few years.

5) I like AVIA because it's a little easier to get to the patterns. I'm sure the DVE patterns are just as good. I'm not sure the HQV disc will help in anyway, unless you are talking about a different disc. I made up some of my own IRE scales, where I could view 0-30, 0-50, 30-80, 50-80, 50-100 & 80-100. This way I could get a better sense of what a narrow IRE range was doing under Auto Iris. Still, one has to accept a balanced compromise when taking into consideration what the Auto Iris video processing will do.

My 2 sets of custom RGB W/B settings, give me a nice 6500K-ish and 7800K-ish, which have been working well. Some movies like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, really push the projector because of the artfull colorization.



Got it. Many thanks for taking a few minutes to help educate me - I've got a much better understanding of how these controls work, now. I'll write down all my initial settings so I can go back if I screw something up.

BTW my PJ rig consists of a 3910 running 720p over HDMI to the HS51 with an 82" Stewart Luxus Deluxe Grayhawk RS with viewing distance about 12-13 feet (2X-2.25X). I also have a Gefen 2:1 HDMI switcher for HD digital cable and I believe HD channels are a 1080i feed. Light control in the room is good, but not great, and I'm continuing progress on this front.

Per Kris Deering, I have adjusted the 3910 floating black to 0 IRE instead of the 7.5 IRE default. This seemed to give better contrast and obviously deeper blacks (a plus), but it also seems to blend the last two grayscale bars closer together (don't know if that matters or not). At the 7.5 IRE setting, the lowest two IRE two bars are much easier to differentiate.

Thanks again. :)

Regards,

Ed

Byte, Thanks again for the settings.

Now that I have everything up and running which looks good BTW but there seems to be some pop missing from the picture compared to the 7700 I was using. I assume it is due to the lumens output so I bumped up to High lamp setting to compensate although I know this is not the preferred setting. This seems to help somewhat but now I am thinking perhaps I need a high gain screen to achieve better results. My question is how much improvement can I expect from a 1.3 or 1.4 gain screen compared to a painted white wall. Is this a 30%-40% increase?


Quick replies appreciated as I need to return the 1st proj.
Thanks

Boogiem']Hi Bytehoven

Its really good to see you back in the HS-50 thread (hope you stay this time ;)) giving accurate and pinpointed information (as allways).
Just wanted to wish you welcome back after a long period without the pixel wrangler :)

Regards
Boogieman

Thanks.

Hey, it's golf season, so I'm busy beating my head against the wall playing tournaments. ;-)

Byte, Thanks again for the settings.

Now that I have everything up and running which looks good BTW but there seems to be some pop missing from the picture compared to the 7700 I was using. I assume it is due to the lumens output so I bumped up to High lamp setting to compensate although I know this is not the preferred setting. This seems to help somewhat but now I am thinking perhaps I need a high gain screen to achieve better results. My question is how much improvement can I expect from a 1.3 or 1.4 gain screen compared to a painted white wall. Is this a 30%-40% increase?


Quick replies appreciated as I need to return the 1st proj.
Thanks
Painted white wall :eek:
My heart cries when I read that :)
A good screen makes a huge difference compared to a white wall.
Not only on brightness but also a LOT on colours, contrast and overal picture fidelity.
If I shoot the picture from my HS-50 on my (the type with bump pattern in it - dunno what its called in english) CHALK white wall (the whitest colour the painter could find for walls) the picture looks.....extremely boring and lacks a lot of depth and clarity and feels kinda dull.

Also the punch in the picture depends a lot on how dark the room is, how much ambient light you have and so on.
In a pitch black room (dark walls, no ambient light) I can give my word that the sony do not look pale - it will most likely feel more than bright enough unless you really want to go pass the recomended peak brightness.
It doesnt look dull even in my chalk white room on a gain 1 white screen but then i have roll down drapes for all 4 windows and the block about 99% of the outside light. During night of course the picture looks it best cause even 1% of sunlight from the windows really makes the picture look A LOT worse than at night.
I have a firehawk at home now for testing and for daylight viewing it rocks - but when night comes and room gets very dark the difference on the deepest blacks is not very big. It has a small edge in scenes with much light and dark objects at the same time since it then blocks the light reflected from the walls from hitting the black areas. I will wait with buying a new one till we move to a villa and then there will be a pitch black cellar and the best white screen money can buy at that time (today it would be a studiotek 130).

If you have problem with ambient light (like in a dark room or with much light leakage) the Stewrat Firehawk is really good at supressing it and still keeping the whites at a very good level (but as all other grey screens it darkens the whites a little bit only the FH darkens it A LOT LESS than the competitors).
If you put a white high gainer like the studiotek in a bright room with amibent light the blacks will get more washed out than with the FH but on the other hand the colours are more correct especially when the room is dark.

But if you look a lot in a bright room the a combo for you most likely would be a Sharp XVZ-2000 in comination with a Stewart firehawk.
XVZ for loads of light - firehawk to keep up a respectable level of contrast and black levels in a bright room.

The remarkable thing with the HS50 is the high maximum contrast, but that is mostly due to the great iris (and good processing i guess). The real (ANSI) contrast in a DLP is greater though and this might what you see.
In all scenes the min black level and peak brightness is the same with a non iris DLP level but further apart from each other.
On the sony the black level and peak brightness varies with the iris opening but and thus min and max gets further separated (higher contrast) but the ANSI contrast in each scene is not as good as with a DLP.

Though IMO the HS-50 brings a more cinematic picture than a dlp like the sharp (have had them both home for comparison together with a yam DPX-1000 and went for the sony but not due to the price tag since i could get them all for about the same $). The sony is smoother more natural looking without getting smeared like a Panny AE700 - its sharp but with a smooth edge to it :) And personally i felt blinded when putting on the Sharp - not the kind of picture i like personally even in low lamp mode but the taste differs of course ;)

Good luck in your selection

Regards
Boogieman

Thanks.

Hey, it's golf season, so I'm busy beating my head against the wall playing tournaments. ;-)

Golf - you mean you trade projector tweaking inside a wamt flat for horrible stuff in the nature a warm summerday like golf :eek: ;)
Hope we'll see more of you towards autumn and winter then - looks like there is alot of exciting stuff coming up. HD (non DVHS) sure do seem to get closer by the minute now.

I am banging my thumbs :eek: tearing down the kitchen and rebuilding it from electricity and up (in the bloody plastered brick walls) till finished with shiny black / stainless deco.

Have a nice summer
Boogie

Boogiem']Golf - you mean you trade projector tweaking inside a wamt flat for horrible stuff in the nature a warm summerday like golf :eek: ;)

I should also mention I don't just play. I also tinker with club making for myself and local friends.

As a result, I am constantly swapping out shafts in drivers, 3 woods, irons, etc... buying and selling iron sets and other clubs, trying to find the perfect set of sticks.

I'm just about there with a Cobra 10.5* 460SZ/UST 75 stiff, KZG CH-1 3 & 5 woods, Callaway X-14 irons and an Odyessey 2-Ball Blade putter. But now I'm just braggin' ;-)

There is plenty of movie action in the home theather, but it's mostly the kids movie time on Friday and Saturday nights, since we added a pull out sleep sofa to the HT.

;-)

I should also mention I don't just play. I also tinker with club making for myself and local friends.


I'm just about there with a Cobra 10.5* 460SZ/UST 75 stiff, KZG CH-1 3 & 5 woods, Callaway X-14 irons and an Odyessey 2-Ball Blade putter. But now I'm just braggin' ;-)


;-)

I highly recommended the Grafalloy ProLaunch Blue shaft. I installed it in my Taylor Made R7 HT and I never look back. I even have it in my 3-wood.

John

I need a ceiling mount for the HS51. Looking for recommendations on various models for 8' high ceiling. I will be mounting directly over seating area with a 11.5' throw.

I need a ceiling mount for the HS51. Looking for recommendations on various models for 8' high ceiling. I will be mounting directly over seating area with a 11.5' throw.

I've seen lots of good feedback about the mounts from these guys:

http://perfectmounts.com/

I need a ceiling mount for the HS51. Looking for recommendations on various models for 8' high ceiling. I will be mounting directly over seating area with a 11.5' throw.


I use the Omni PMD-1 mount for my Sony HS51 projector and it was easy to install and adjust. You can get on Ebay for little over a hundred dollar.

John

So all in all, how would those who have had the HS-51 for atleast 30 days rate this projector on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best? I am 95% sure I am going to buy it, but just want some opinions.

~Josh

So all in all, how would those who have had the HS-51 for atleast 30 days rate this projector on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best? I am 95% sure I am going to buy it, but just want some opinions.

~Josh

Josh - Thanks for asking *this is an old review, and Now that I have had 6 month to tweak and setup HDMI some of my statments can now be fixed, but with only going into the Service menu and chg some setting posted by Kris, or Byte.

Sony VPL-HS51 REVIEW
By: SOWK (Someone Who Knows)

Quick read review:

Ratings scale 1 (worst) – 10 (best)

Picture 10* (with 720P Input A computer mode)
Picture 7 for Video Games (with any other connections)
Picture 8 for Movies (with any other connections)
Processing/Scaling 4 ( bad sharpness, crushed blacks)
Inputs 8 (would like to have seen DVI)
Ease of use 6 for me (10 if no need to get all signals to 720P
- VGA)
*The Sony is the ultimate home theater projector for the $$$ in image – but requires you to get all your video output signals to 720P, and need to go into the Input A on the Sony in computer mode only!


Long read review:

Equipment:

Sony VPL-HS51
- Connected –
Monster Cable Power 12' Powerline 100 power cable/ Better Cables Silver Serpent VGA Cord 15'
- Configuration –
Input A / Cinema mode / 45 Brightness / 70~80 contrast / Lamp: Low /
Iris: Auto / Everything else to default.
- Screen –
DIY 110” custom for the Sony at the above settings. (How might you
add: Well I’ll tell you?) The Board is a large 8’ X 4’ Foam Board - only
6lbs - from a local art store! Then got a whole bunch of paint samples
from Home Depot (whites thru Grays) I picked a sample called fog, very
close to white but not quite. Enhances blacks, and doesn’t at all take
away from the whites on the projected image! Put 5 coats of paint on
w/ the smoothest roller possible. Then I made custom Black leather
borders.

Vinc Bravo D2
- Connected –
Standard connected power / Monster Cable DVI400 6’
- Configuration –
DVI out / 720P out / default brightness / default contrast / default color
Input A on the Sony is set to Computer mode.

Microsoft X-Box
- Connected –
Standard Connected power / Neoya X2VGA VGA out
- Configuration –
MS 480P dash board / display 480P / 720P / 1080i / widescreen display
type.
Input A on the Sony is Set to Computer for 720P games / Video GBR for
480P and
1080i

Dtrovision DC-DA1 DVI to VGA converter w/ Full HDCP compliance
- Connected –
Standard Power Adaptor / Input: Vinc Bravo D2’s Monster Cable DVI
400 / Output:
The Better Calbe's 15’ VGA cord
- Configuration –
None

Belkin Isolator Power Strip
- Connected –
Sony VPL-HS51 / Microsoft X-Box / Vinc Bravo D2 / Linksys Wireless G
adaptor /
Dtrovision DC-DA1 / Optical to Coaxial Audio converter.
- Configuration –
None

Ok… Now that you know the Setup

The Sony VPL-HS51 is one of the best projectors I have ever had the pleasure to test, and now own. I’m not new to video imaging just AVS forums. Comparing it to other projectors like the Infocus X1 / 4805, Sharp XV-Z10000U, Sharp XV-Z12000U, Epson Cinema 500, Viewsonic PJ551, Sim2 300, Barco, Runco. The Sony can do better blacks. And over the majority has better coloring, also a huge Plus for m is that it has a very low db sound output. Compaired to my last Projector the Viewsonic PJ551 it is silent, and the Sony’s blacks and contrast is night and day different 400:1 to 6000:1. The viewsonic configured on the old custom screen looked like a 2000:1 projector! And the Sony still blows it out of the water. But again I am using a custom screen just for the Sony. The viewsonic couldn’t do variations of blue, as they would have a hue of purple in it, the Sony’s color is spot on, no tweaking needed if you are using computer mode with input A.

I used many test games / movies / and played with all configurations.

The Sony is a must buy if you spend just a little more.

You should use 720P Input A - Computer Mode for me to really recommend this unit.

If not I think you should look into the Pany or Sanyo *I still belive this as the Pany or Sanyo have better Proccessing!*

I test the unit out at a local store first, about 4 hour worth, brought in laptop, x-box. Was only looking for the contrast differences at the time!

Got the unit 2 days later from *online retailer* - next day air, double boxed. I worked at UPS for 3 ½ years ha-ha. BTY *online retailer* has some of the best customer service ever, and fast delivery!

I bought the Bravo D2 for $150.00 knowing its DVI output is DVD reference quality!
Bought a 13.3’ HDMI monster cable / HDMI to DVI adaptor. Then was like great I’m good to go. 1080i to the Sony, get super good quality. Avoid the 720P blanketing issue! Yes. All this was based on the review from projector central. Boy was I wrong. The review stated video processing was only on analog inputs, and the only problem with digital was the 720P blanketing issue. Nope. My experiences – I hooked everything up properly, popped in a bran spankin new Spiderman 2 Superbit DVD fresh out of the box, awaiting the most perfect DVD image to date. Instead I got ---- What the F*#^, this image sucks / and this was only the menu system, (I switch between all modes of the Vinc Bravo D2 480p/720p/1080i) my Previous calibrated Business projector (Viewsonic PJ551) looked significantly sharper AKA different movie/images. “Well may be it only the Spiderman 2 DVD” switched it out with X2 collector’s edition, (tested to be super clean on my Viewsonic going thru a Laptop) and had the same reaction. Now thinking maybe the Bravo D2 sucks major - you know what – So I bring in my laptop to hook up, put in Spiderman 2 superbit DVD and switch the Sony to Input A Computer mode. And was like WOW! This image rocks!!! I’m selling this crappy Bravo D2… So I played a bit with the Sony’s settings brightness, contrast, low / high, cinema, standard, dynamic. Then after very long sessions 6 hours worth, I was right to build a screen directly for the Sony I reset everything to default. With my screen I don’t need to touch any settings. Then I figured I would chg the input mode to Component and then Video GBR. Component’s colors were way off, as is should have been as it was an RGB signal. Then I went to Video GBR, and was like what the F*#^, the blanketing issue was there and the image looked like the Bravo D2’s. Now I’m thinking that’s weird. I quickly ran to my Bed room with a Nintendo Gamecube hooked up to a VGA monitor using a very nice Component to VGA adaptor, and carefully took off the adaptor and brought it into the living room and hooked it up to the Bravo D2 with component out. Ran it to the Sony with VGA, in computer mode. Now the image was a lot better and only in a 4X3 format??? but not as good as the Laptop at 720P. I then tried to chg the output from 480P to 720P, and was very disappointed… The Bravo D2 doesn’t support upconverstion of HDCP material thru the analog outputs. I needed to have a perfect image and ran back to the laptop looking for the DVDO HD+ I was thinking Bravo D2 to DVI in output 720P VGA, great I’m set, but at a later date, I don’t have $1500 to spend. But no it still won’t do what I need, more later! Now I was pissed about the 4X3 only on the Sony using the Bravo, converter, and VGA. Hey stupid Sony, 480P is a widescreen format! I then turn on my X-box and used DOA 3 in 480P to see what would happen. The same thing, everything was smooched into a 4X3 format. But the Image was Beautiful. Contrast color, brightness, blacks, everything except the 4X3 smooched image. I went into the menu to see the Sony in computer mode would see it only as 640X480! (BTW 1080i, and 1080p are also smooched in to a 4X3 1024X768 resolution window) Now I’m pissed at Sony, I spend the next couple of days talking / e-mailing / writing to Sony about there Product problems. There Live Chat would always refer me to the 800 number. There 800 number keep sending me to Sony computers, because I was talking about preset modes on the Sony, and wanted to make 2 for 480P both 720X480, and 852X480 also 2 for 1080i/p. But Sony only response was no you can’t do that! There e-mail just came back we are not planning any firmware updates, or future chg to the Sony’s functions. To fix my problem all they need to do is add an aspect chg mode to the computer input mode. But they won’t. Widescreen review also stated this, and they said Sony knew about the problem and was hopping they would ix it for production models, NOPE!!! So, now I very mad at Sony. But figure I find away around my problems!!! I start asking questions to the sales division at DVDO about the HD+ I was really excited about getting some answers back. Boy they were not what I was expecting. VGA is only pass thru – it can’t convert my X-box VGA 480P, or 1080i to 720P. I was like that’s ok I’ll just use Component and send out at 720P, but found out it wont be future ready, the component input wont take 1080i or 1080P and down convert to 720P, Then I was like ok, well PS3 and X-box 2 are coming out soon and I hope they will use digital outs. So I asked will the DVDO process 1080P input thru DVI? Answer = no, it wont accept an 1080P input. I was not going to spend $1500.00 on a processor that is not prepared be ready for the next year’s electronics/HD-DVD’s at 1080P!

Now pissed further at Sony for not just giving all of us a firmware update. I was thinking, most device that send out HD thru digital have the ability to send 720P anyhow, so I just need a DVI to VGA converter for my DVD’s and future gaming consoles. Look online, all are about $500.00. I still cringed, I could buy a HTPC, that does both DVD and HD feeds for that! (Then being the PC freak I am, it ended up being closer in price to the DVDO!) So I decided it was a no go. I just got out of that industry, AKA updating every 2 month to get the best performance possible from my PC. I then 4 days later found an online retailer was selling the Dtrovision DC-DA1 for $***.**I was like, yes it cheap and supports full HDCP! I figured I would be the first to try it. Now that I have it, it works perfect and supports 1080P input as well. So I now have fixed my DVD movies, The BravoD2 in 720P looks grand, and its pixel perfect, and no video processing. Plus the blacks weren’t crushed like they were with HDMI! I did watch the Spiderman DVD originally on the Bravo D2 HDMI. Then compared HDMI to VGA in certain scenes that bothered me, no shadow detail, and now I see shadow detail that wasn’t there before! I still haven’t fixed my X-box problem, but will live with it in Video GBR mode for 480P, and 1080I, this is so I can get widescreen support! 720P work great in Computer mode. I have found a device that would fix it but would cost $400.00 (It’s a VGA HD to VGA HD converter, allows any VGA signal input to be output to 720P) and is not worth it for me to spend to fix a product that is going to be replaced by the ear end with X-box 2.
I want to report that the video processing in this unit is really bad, By switching my 720P games from computer mode to Video GBR, it is harder to follow characters on screen, less sharp, has artificial edge enhancing that looks like very bad compression, it has the 720P border issues, and has crushed blacks, tweaking would be needed to get shadow detail back!

* I now woud say that HDMI allows to get similar grey scale, but I need to turn up brightness to about 75 to get similar results. VGA to me is still better!*

So, sorry about the long review, but is the Sony the best projector I have used, yes. Am I fully satisfied? no. If Sony allowed us to turn off the processing for all inputs except input a computer mode (none already), and added Aspect ratios to computer mode, Yes I would be.

If setup properly does the Sony really do blacks/Shadow/grey scale detail justice?
Yes, Comparable to my professionally tweaked 22” Diamond Pro 2060U Computer Monitor

If I buy it will I need to update in the next 2 years?
No

Do I need to worry about over heating?
No, but look at my pics, I have built a 25db fan to pull air from the unit anyhow. Plus make the bulb life longer and less damage to the LCD panels. The unit runs much cooler. And barley even warm (a little over room temp) after 3 hour of use!

Should I buy this unit?
Yes, one of Sony’s best products, but has some faults.

How does it compare to the other units you looked at?
Well for me DLP are a no go, I am very prone to rainbow, I see it still on a six X color wheel, plus yellows and reds are muddy, but in general color is usually better on DLP’s, better then the Sony: No!

How is it compared to other LCD’s?
Well much better coloring and blacks/shadows. But it does need a light controlled room. The unit is dim. But I went from a true 1200 lumens to about 400 lumens projector.



(BTW) The Viewsonic didn’t have any problem like the Sony because A. it doesn’t have an internal video processor, only scaler. And B. The scaler didn’t have different modes, it would take all signals and scale it to the native resolution, and the Viewsonic allowed for you to tell it if the signal was 16X9 or 4X3 aspect.

*The Sony is the ultimate home theater projector for the $$$ in image – but requires you to get all your video output signals to 720P, and need to go into the Input A on the Sony in computer mode only!

Please check out the Gallery and leave comments!

Please ask any questions. And post what you think of my review!
It is long, and has mostly experiences in it, but tells you what to watch for and how to avoid them!

Sowk-

I was hoping to feed the projector both my Directv HD-Tivo and Upconverting DVD player via HDMI with an HDMI Splitter of course. Do you now get good performance from the HDMI cable?

~Josh

Sowk-

I was hoping to feed the projector both my Directv HD-Tivo and Upconverting DVD player via HDMI with an HDMI Splitter of course. Do you now get good performance from the HDMI cable?

~Josh

When you say splitter I sure hope you mean switch... a "Y" cable will not get it done for digital sources.

If you need to switch digital sources it's time to investigate switches like the Gefen or Zektron.

Sowk-

I was hoping to feed the projector both my Directv HD-Tivo and Upconverting DVD player via HDMI with an HDMI Splitter of course. Do you now get good performance from the HDMI cable?

~Josh

Josh Yes the image will look fine, If you get a New Firmware version you will have overscan, but It will look good. Without the Firmware you will get blanking if sending a 720P signal. I would still have you go to people houses to see better setups of the Sony, Pany, or Sanyo if others whould be willing to show you there setups.

My preference is VGA (for the 1:1 MAPPING, Better greyscla on my setup, More accurate coloring on my setup. Sharper picture for HD material), but not everyong want to spend the money on getting there connections to VGA!

I need a ceiling mount for the HS51. Looking for recommendations on various models for 8' high ceiling. I will be mounting directly over seating area with a 11.5' throw.


Chief RPA 102 mounted to a custom made wooden plate anchored to two ceiling studs.

The Chief allows for forward/rear and side/side adjustments. It also allows for rotation if you install a threaded pipe.

I elected not to install this pipe, so I made sure the mounting plate I built was a) perfectly square, and b) mounted exactly perpendicular to the screen.

I attached the Chief perfectly square to the wooden mounting plate, and then bubble leveled it in both directions.

For those who have the HS51, is it good for HD Sports, such has the NFL in HD on FOX, CBS, ABC and ESPN? Also I will be using a Directv HD Tivo (HR10-250) with this projector, should I set the output on the HD Tivo to 720p for the best possible picture quality? I will be using an HDMI connection.

~Josh

It's great for sports as long as you are in a dark room. If you want to watch with the lights on, get the BenQ or Optoma instead.

Compare the Tivo output between 1080 and 720. See which you prefer.
Pip

I have been reading posts on this forum for some time but I haven't posted in quite awhile. I am still using a Pioneer Elite Pro 520hd RP CRT and Pioneer Elite dv-37 DVD over component at my house. To this day I haven't seen better DVD picture quality, as long as I adjust the covergence once a month. :)
My house is perfect for my setup. There is plenty of room for a RP CRT. I would love to get a front projector but I have to many windows. Plus the room is open to another room where there is a fireplace and many more windows. I would have to build a wall to seperate the two rooms and I don't want to do that.

Anyway, a friend of mine is looking for a new setup. He had a RP CRT that he liked but it won't fit down the stairs at his new house. He has a finished basement with only one very small window. It is a very long room. I believe it is the perfect setup for a front projector. He agreed and we ordered the HS51. He has a budget of $5000.00. That has to cover everything including a cheap receiver to power some cheap speakers. He doesn't care that much about sound quality but video perfomance is important.

Now after everything I've read I began to realize the HS51 needs to be feed a 720p signal in order to achieve the best picture. My friend will be using the projector for Digital HD Cable and DVD only. The cable box he is currently using will upconvert over component. So I will use the component inputs for cable. I had him also order a Panny S77 so we can use that to upconvert dvd's to 720p over the hdmi input.
That's as far as we've gotten. We just ordered it yesterday. It should be in some time next week.

So. How am I doing so far? Does the setup sound ok? I thought maybe it would be better if we bought either a hdmi switch or a reciever that switches. He would rather save a few bucks and use the component input for cable. Will that be ok as long as the cable box sends out a 720p signal?

Also, we still need to get a screen. What do you guys recommend? His room is very long but a low ceiling so we figure between 80-100'' would be ideal. I think he has enough money left over to spend about $1000-$1500 for a screen.
We will probably test it out on his white wall to see what the ideal screen size is. Once we know that we will order the screen.

Beeker,

I recently purchased the HS51 and use it with the s97 and am pretty pleased via HDMI so your friend is in great shape. I also do not see MB in the Sony like I saw with the 7700 so it's a good combo.
I am looking now for a mount and researching screens. I suggest painting the wall first until he decides how large a screen to get. Also, unless he wants the best screen there are good options in the $500-800 range.

I am quite sure I am going to buy the HS-51. My question is, how bright can it get? I know we have heard how great the black levels are, but lets say I wanted to watch some HD sports with some background lighting on, how will it be? This is really the last part to the puzzle for me with this projector, so anyone with experience with this I would greatly appreciate your comments.

~Josh

How bright are the lights? You can use it just not very well in very lit rooms. I would say its not very bright in the light compaired to a business projector. So if bright lights then no, but 60 or under watt light balbs and you should be ok!

SOWK,

Thanks so much for the reply. Yeah, I would say the lights would not be above 60 watts. Hey, I have been reading through a lot of older posts on this thread and I was wondering if I were to buy a new HS-51 from an authorized dealer, are the HDMI issues and 720p issues now resolved? The reason I ask is because I will be feeding it my Directv HD-Tivo and Denon 2910 through HDMI and my HTPC through the VGA.

~Josh

I just wanted to post my observations and thank everyone for the settings again which saved me a boat load of time. I have to say I am pleased with the picture I am getting now that I have calibrated it as much as I can without professional/guru help.

Here is what I ended up with with only a slight deviation from Kris's and Byte basic #'s numbers and mine in ( ).
Contrast 78 (81) I upped this to brighten up image until I get a screen to improve contrast.
Brightness 55
Color 45 (46) - I had to bump up one based on Avia
Hue 50
Sharpness 0 (20) I prefer a slightly sharper image
Gamma = Off
Black = Off
Iris = Auto
Lamp = Low

In the Service Menu I also plugged in the Gain and Bias setting which were spot on for me for Red and Blue but I had to change Green quite a bit from the recommended #'s:

RG 140 same
GG 78 (63)
BG 100 same
RB 123 same
GB 128 (113)
BB 132 same

I am not sure why Green would be so far off(yes, I confirmed that I did not have +15 in the basic controls) but I think I readjusted them pretty well by eyeballing high and low saturation levels then I divided by 2 and used that number. I followed up by comparing it to an ISF'd CRT and it seemed to work. The color decoder check in Avia also seem to confirm what I had done.

Question:
Can anyone confirm if by using a DVDO Iscan VGA to the PJ that I can get 1:1? If so, how is this done?

I just wanted to post my observations and thank everyone for the settings again which saved me a boat load of time.

Very good, you are on your way. ;-)

If you take a film like Chronicles of Riddick, there are some sceens with a heavy mixture of very bright whites in a bark background. One sceen is the opening hand on the plunger to set off the planet nuke. In that sceen, there is an orb which pans by. As you run up the contrast, you can see more of the orb bright detail disappear. My contrast setting was as bright as I could go before any orb detail was lost.

There are some other sceens which also benefit.

However, I agree running the contrast a little higher does make for a better picture under most situations. If you ever feel you are losing some bright white detail, contrast is the 1st place to try an adjustment.

This artifact is all the by product of the Auto Iris video processing. If you switch the Auto Iris OFF, you can run contrast all the way to the top, and you don't lose any detail in the sceen I mentioned.

Good luck with the HS-51.

Can anyone confirm if by using a DVDO Iscan VGA to the PJ that I can get 1:1? If so, how is this done?

Yes you can. Problem is, you need either an SDI source, a non-HDCP source or an analog source going into the DVDO. Unless you have some sort of cheater box. Just set the output to analog and go from there. Set the output to 720P. You'll have to adjust the dot phase to get it to work though, this can be done in the menu for the HS51 in the same place as image position. Use the horizantal and vertical pixel on/off patterns to adjust. It is easy to tell when it is correct.

Service mode question...

I've been able to get into the service menu and make the color adjustments, etc. Just wanna make sure I'm doing things properly. My understanding is that Custom 1 is tied to User 1, Custom 2 to User 2, Custom 3 to User 3. Is this correct? Which means that when you select User1 there's no separate selection to make to use your color balance under Custom 1 etc when you choose User 1.

There's alot mentioned here about the settings in service mode but I've found very little in the way of "how to" and just want to make sure I'm doing things correctly.

Thanks for all the help in this thread, folks. The HS51 should be mounted very soon and I can't wait to see it!

No, the Custom 1 - 3 color temperatures are not tied to the User 1 - 3 presets in any way. All six of the color temperature settings are global. A given color temp does not change depending on input, user presets or anything else. And any of the six temps can be selected with any input or user preset.

Choose a user preset, then make all of your menu adjustments: brightness, contrast, iris, gamma, lamp, even wide mode (aspect ratio) setting, choose any of the six color remperatures, etc.. The next time you choose that user preset, (with the same input and resolution), all of your settings will be recalled. The user preset settings are stored distinctly for each input and for each resolution. In other words, your settings for User 1 (for example) can be different for the component input than for the HDMI input. If you run both a 480P DVD player and a 1080i HD box into component, the User setting will remember independant settings for each resolution.

Pip

Well after 950 lamp hours I needed to replace the bulb. The bulb still illuminated but I would guess at about 30% brightness. Not even close to the 3,000 hour manufacture estimate but that's still ok with me. This is my 3rd projector system and I am still in awe of the performance in every way. I had a backup lamp ready to go and I would suggest everyone do the same. A well known Web Based store has them in stock for $249.00

I just had my lamp go out. 700 hours on it, and all of a sudden ... BANG! Very loud noise, and no picture. I was planning on ordering a backup bulb when I got to about 1500 hours, but now I have a rush delivery scheduled with UPS next day air.

I second the suggestion on having a backup lamp available. If nothing else, it will allow you to avoid the more expensive shipping charges.

Friar

No, the Custom 1 - 3 color temperatures are not tied to the User 1 - 3 presets in any way. All six of the color temperature settings are global. A given color temp does not change depending on input, user presets or anything else. And any of the six temps can be selected with any input or user preset.

Choose a user preset, then make all of your menu adjustments: brightness, contrast, iris, gamma, lamp, even wide mode (aspect ratio) setting, choose any of the six color remperatures, etc.. The next time you choose that user preset, (with the same input and resolution), all of your settings will be recalled. The user preset settings are stored distinctly for each input and for each resolution. In other words, your settings for User 1 (for example) can be different for the component input than for the HDMI input. If you run both a 480P DVD player and a 1080i HD box into component, the User setting will remember independant settings for each resolution.

Pip

Thanks for the info, Pip.

SOWK

So you bought the
It got the 1080p stamp at http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP
so it sounds like a safe bet. I am thinking of buying a Denon DVD-3910 or a NeuNeo 2801
http://www.neuneo.com/body/product/hvd2081/feature.asp but then i need HDMI to DVI to CONVERTER to HS-50 and that a lot of links that could create mishaps but i am interested to see what happens if i feed the HS-50 1080p via component from the neunuo (and i think the will come with 720 for the VGA soon to - dunno if thepicture will be better or worse than HDMI though)
Why do you prefer the bravo player. I have heard that the Oppos hould be Outstanding so that is also in my "to choose from" list.
But i guess the best machine would be a den 3910 still even though the cost is more steep.

Would the Gefen be just as good as DC-DA1. I am asking since i can get that one a lo easier here in Sweden.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=1209

I sure am interested to see what a good player and a good converter can do for the sony.

I do not really understan what you mean with that you cant change aspect on the input-a though. I mean if the input-a receives 1280*720 everything is good (the dvd player does the conversion) and if its a 4:3 movie it will 1024*768 or 1280*1024. You mean that the vertical 1024-720 = xxx pixels gets "outside the pixture frame" ?

Best regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']SOWK

So you bought the
It got the 1080p stamp at http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP
so it sounds like a safe bet. I am thinking of buying a Denon DVD-3910 or a NeuNeo 2801
http://www.neuneo.com/body/product/hvd2081/feature.asp but then i need HDMI to DVI to CONVERTER to HS-50 and that a lot of links that could create mishaps but i am interested to see what happens if i feed the HS-50 1080p via component from the neunuo (and i think the will come with 720 for the VGA soon to - dunno if thepicture will be better or worse than HDMI though)
Why do you prefer the bravo player. I have heard that the Oppos hould be Outstanding so that is also in my "to choose from" list.
But i guess the best machine would be a den 3910 still even though the cost is more steep.

Would the Gefen be just as good as DC-DA1. I am asking since i can get that one a lo easier here in Sweden.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=1209

I sure am interested to see what a good player and a good converter can do for the sony.

I do not really understan what you mean with that you cant change aspect on the input-a though. I mean if the input-a receives 1280*720 everything is good (the dvd player does the conversion) and if its a 4:3 movie it will 1024*768 or 1280*1024. You mean that the vertical 1024-720 = xxx pixels gets "outside the pixture frame" ?

Best regards
Boogieman

I am only using the bravo because I didnt want to spend extra money for the Oppo, when I already had a DVD play that is good for picture Quality. BTW I also have the Denon 3910, but I only use it for Music. I will be the first person to jump the HD-DVD bandwagon, even if it costs me $500.00, But this is my hobby. So I look at current DVD's like something I wont be using much longer.

For inputs other then 1280X720 in to input-a in computer mode, such as 720X480 It will only reconize it as 640X480 and smooth it into a 4X3 window with no aspect ratios.

I am getting only 2% overscan via HDMI with a S97. I am sure the Oppo would be similar as these dvd players for some reason letter box 720p into a smaller frame. This may be good news to HS51 owners with the new firmware who are getting 3-4% overscan with other dvd players.

I am also getting 0 overscan via VGA from a Iscan but the picture is not a sharp. I must have something set up wrong. How do you use dot pitch? The grey scale is also totally different despite the same settings.

For inputs other then 1280X720 in to input-a in computer mode, such as 720X480 It will only reconize it as 640X480 and smooth it into a 4X3 window with no aspect ratios.


Not quite. 1440x1050 and 1280x768 are both 16:9 (though they don't scale to the very edge). There are probably other res' that work, but I haven't experimented that much.

Not quite. 1440x1050 and 1280x768 are both 16:9 (though they don't scale to the very edge). There are probably other res' that work, but I haven't experimented that much.

Are you being serious??? I was only giving one example. Also a real world example! Gee... I dont think I'm goint to output my dvd player to 1440X1050/1280X768 or my HD-DVD or my Blue-Ray DVDs, or any other display device for that matter. Btw you can try every single resolution thru a pc and see what happens... It will take most modes that are 16:9 or 16:10 and smootch them into a 4X3 window, with the unit only reconizing it as 640X480 or 1024X768, because thoese are the presets in the Sony unit, Look at the last couple of pages in you Sony Manual and see what will work for 16:9, and everything else thats not listed will be displayed incorrectly!

There is not support for 1080P with the HS51. It will support 1080P24sf, which is actually 1080i @48Hz. So now you are relying on the Sony de-interlacer and hoping that it will stay locked onto the signal properly for 48Hz. I tried it with the Lumagen scaler and the results weren't that great. The image didn't look any better or smoother then 720P via HDMI and there was some occasional stuttering in the image. Personally I don't think it is worth the investment.

I lost my HS20 to a lightning strike a couple of weeks ago. My insurance company has decided to replace it and has given me full replacement coverage. I am therefore considering an HS51. I looked at an HS51 at a friend's house last night. It had more SDE than my HS20 did. It appeared to have smaller pixels with more inter-pixel space than the HS20. I tried the focus, but it didn't seem to enlarge the pixels the way the MLA did on the HS20. Also, it was a PIA because of the manual vs. power focus. I never got it so it looked as smooth and integrated as my HS20 did. I could always see the pixel structure, even 15 feet away from a 92" SilverStar screen.

This was an older HS51 without the firmware revision. My friend was only feeding it component 1080i HD CATV and S-video DVD. Also, he had some kind of video noise going on that appeared as a rolling shadow in the background of the image. You could see it clearly with a blank screen. Nonetheless, I entered Kris Deerings settings and they improved the B/W and colors, but not to the "astonishing" point I was hoping for. Blacks weren't totally black, but they were a darker gray than what my HS20 put out. Finally, overall brightness was not as great as my HS20.

We watched some HD baseball on ESPN and it looked pretty good, but not as bright nor as saturated as my HS20, (my HS20 was connected to my HD CATV box via HDMI and outputting 720p on ESPN). Also the HS50 image didn't look as sharp and I could clearly see the pixel structure in large single-colored areas like the green outfield.

Then we watched U-571. The dark scenes had better shadow detail and absolute black levels, but other than that, I would have preferred watching my HS20, (which was also connected to a Sony 975 DVD player via HDMI and outputting 720p (through a Gefen HDMI switcher)). The image on the HS51 was softer with more SDE. Colors were less saturated and the overall image less bright.

All-in-all, I was disappointed. However, my disappointment is tempered by the fact that his system wasn't optimized. I will help him optimize his system. He's ordered a HDMI switcher and HDMI upscaling DVD player. He's contacting Comcast to get a box capable of 720p via HDMI. And I think I can get rid of the video noise with a power conditioner with CATV surge suppression. This will help him. However, for me, I think I'm going to look at some of the 720p DLP's.

Craig

I lost my HS20 to a lightning strike a couple of weeks ago.

It had more SDE than my HS20 did.

I never got it so it looked as smooth and integrated as my HS20 did....

....but they were a darker gray than what my HS20 put out.

Finally, overall brightness was not as great as my HS20.

Also the HS50 image didn't look as sharp and I could clearly see the pixel structure.....


..... but other than that, I would have preferred watching my HS20

The image on the HS51 was softer with more SDE. Colors were less saturated and the overall image less bright.

All-in-all, I was disappointed.

However, for me, I think I'm going to look at some of the 720p DLP's.



Are you selling your HS-20 or what :D
I compared the HS-50 vs the Sharp XVZ-2000 (the best bang for the buck when it comes to DLP in the mid class - close to sonys price that is) and the Yamaha DPX-1000 (ok its not HD2+ but still it was a damn expensive and very praised unit some year ago).
I tested theese units about 6 months ago with a Denon DVD-3910 outputting DVI to Yam and Sharp and HDMI to the Sony.
In my opinion the HS-50 took the match due to a couple of reasons.

1. Very integrated picture (movie like) but still with enough sharpness not to look blurry. The Sharp on the other hand was razor sharp and had more 3-dimensionality.

2. The sony and the yam took the price when it came to colours. I never got the Sharp good it allways tinted quite bad in one colour depending on setting (but i never found the factory menu)

3. The Sony is QUIET (even more quiet than the gigantic Yam)

4. The Sonys lowest black levels (none of the other two matched on this part)

5. Detail in dark scenes. The other two werent bad at all but still one notch behind.

6. Manual zoom. I know it sounds silly but the sharps motorized zoom was to far stepped so you couldnt get it to stop at exactly the sharpest spot. The Yam on the other hand was a beuty to work with with allmost stepless zoom, focus and lens shift.

Now I ran the old firmware at that moment and still do. Kris says the new one is better but i guess ill have to find a bloke that has the new one and compare before i send it in. Once done it cant be undone see ;)


But then again I am not a light fanatic. The Sharp was IMO unpleasantly bright even in low lamp mode. My second choice after the sony is hard. The yam for colours and the sharp for 3-d feel.

But if you want LIGHT and decent black levels and quite good detail in dark scenes and can live with that the image is so razor sharp it doens feel as movielike and integrated as the HS-50 then look at the Sharp.
Or even better - keep ypur HS-20...it sound like a killer when you describe it kicking the new LCD wonder of the throne ;)

Regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']

Now I ran the old firmware at that moment and still do. Kris says the new one is better but i guess ill have to find a bloke that has the new one and compare before i send it in. Once done it cant be undone see ;)



Tell me when you find out as i waiting for the same thing! lol! My friend also has a non fixed unit! :( But I can't convince him to send his in eather!

Boogiem']Are you selling your HS-20 or what :D

Regards
Boogieman

I don't even have my HS-20 anymore. The insurance company owns it. I'm only relaying what my eyes saw on the HS-51 vs. what they have been watching for the last year and a half, (and almost 4,000 hours) on my HS-20.

Unfortunately, what they saw was a non-optimized HS51 vs their visual memory of a calibrated and "signal-optimized" HS-20. The optimzed pj will almost always win out.

Craig

Hi,

I cannot get to HS50 service menu with the instructions:

-Under the user menu (click MENU key on remote), check that Setup/Status is turned ON. If not, turn it ON.
-Exit the user menu by clicking the MENU key.
-To enter the Service Menu, on the remote quickly click ENTER, ENTER, UP, DOWN, ENTER. When prompted to enter SERVICE MODE click UP for Yes. To return to User mode click the same sequence then when prompted to return to USER MODE click UP for Yes. "

I just get the text 'Not applicable' when trying to click enter, enter etc. Can I really just be too slow in doing this or is there some other prerequisite than 'Setup/Status is turned ON' ??? Is HS50 different from HS51 in this matter or what could possibly cause this?

Are you being serious???Sadly, yes. The "rules" that the Sony uses for determining whether a computer signal is 16:9 are not obvious.

I was only giving one example. Also a real world example!As is mine. My HTPC (VIA KM400 under Linux) won't do 1280x720, but it will do 1280x768 and 1440x1050, so I have it set to the former, hoping that it would 1:1 horizontally, and scale vertically (it didn't).

Note that those two resolutions are standard resolutions on display devices (e.g. LCD TV, Canon SX50?).


...Look at the last couple of pages in you Sony Manual and see what will work for 16:9, and everything else thats not listed will be displayed incorrectly!

Incorrectly? Probably.
4:3? No.

With some source devices, setting to something other than the standard three resolutions may be necessary, and will allow near-16:9.

It's great for sports as long as you are in a dark room. If you want to watch with the lights on, get the BenQ or Optoma instead.

Compare the Tivo output between 1080 and 720. See which you prefer.
Pip

Pip - I have a no windows / no light room with dimmer switch lights. I too am trying to figure out this last decision point - is the HS51 good for watching HD Sports in some light. I imagine I'll have my lights dimmed half way.

Would you still suggest the BenQ (probably PE7700)? Do you think the PE7700 is beyond rainbow effect? What's the downside of this projector compared to the HS51 (besides handling darks)?

Thanks in advance.

Pip -

Sticking with the HD Sports theme - How would the HS51 perform in a dimmed room? I have a dark room with dimmer lights. I imagine I would dim them to 70% of full light.

Would you still recommend the BenQ? Are you suggesting the PE7700 as the alternative to the HS51?

What's the downside of the BenQ (in addition to handling darks)?

dimarz:

How much ambient light the HS51 will tolerate depends on many factors: your screen size, type, and gain, the type and amount of lighting, and your own preferences. But I can tell you that the BenQ/Toshiba is considerably brighter. Wether or not you need, or will prefer that extra brightness is difficult to determine.

I'm sure you have read all my observations which I posted in your "trying to choose between" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5891402#post5891402) thread. I really can't add anything meaningful to those observations.

Pip

Haven't posted in awhile and thought I'd fill you guys and gals in on something I experienced recently.

I went to a local high end shop and was looking at the Denon 2910 becuase I want to send a 1080i signal to my HS-51 (no firmware update, so I still have the 720p blanking issue) they had a demo unit set up with the Denon hooked up to it via component. They were playing Star Wars return of the Jedi.

I was amazed at how good the picture looked, much superior to the picture I was getting at home. So I asked the sales guys what signal they were feeding the pj, assuming he would tell me 720/1080. I was shocked when he told me that they were feeding it a 480 signal!!!

I explained to him that I wanted to get an upscaling DD player so that I could get rid of alot of the jaggies etc that I'm getting right now. I asked if I could see the settings on the unit, and he showed me, they were very similar to my own.

The secret was, he told, that he always feeds this pj an interlaced signal and lets the pj do the video processing and upscaling.

Personally, from everything I've read here and else where, I should have told the guy he was full of S***!!!

To make the story a little shorter, when I got home I turned OFF the progressive scan on my player and turned the pj setting to film. I put in the same DVD I saw at the store, and Behold!!!! The picture looked SO MUCH better, less jaggies and more detail than before.

Just thought I'd share this with you guys! Let me know what you think.

Dave

I cannot get to HS50 service menu with the instructions:
....
I just get the text 'Not applicable' when trying to click enter, enter etc. Can I really just be too slow in doing this or is there some other prerequisite than 'Setup/Status is turned ON'
For some reason entering the Service or Factory menu can be difficult. It often takes me several trys. You do have to click the sequence fairly quickly, but maybe it can't be too fast. All I can suggest is to keep trying, press the buttons firmly and try different speeds. Eventually it should work.

I was amazed at how good the picture looked, much superior to the picture I was getting at home. So I asked the sales guys what signal they were feeding the pj, assuming he would tell me 720/1080. I was shocked when he told me that they were feeding it a 480 signal!!!...
To make the story a little shorter, when I got home I turned OFF the progressive scan on my player and turned the pj setting to film. I put in the same DVD I saw at the store, and Behold!!!! The picture looked SO MUCH better, less jaggies and more detail than before.
You don't mention which DVD player you have, but I have read some articles that say the de-interlacing in many of the cheap Progressive Scan DVD players is crap. Which would you expect to have better de-interlacing, a sub $100 DVD player or a $3000 PJ? A lot of people in these forums have complained about the quality of the HS-51 processing, but most of the professional reviewers gave it high marks.

You can also make a pretty good argument that it is better to have one unit do both the scaling and deinterlacing while everything is in the digital domain, instead of de-interlacing in digital, D/A convert, send by analog component, A/D convert, then scale in digital. There is also probably some interaction between de-interlacing and scaling that is best handled by one unit.

All that said, using an upscaling DVD player over HDMI produces a great picture. I have tried both the Sony NS975Vand the Panasonic S97S. Both of these are in the $300 range and produce a picture few would find fault with.

For some reason entering the Service or Factory menu can be difficult. It often takes me several trys. You do have to click the sequence fairly quickly, but maybe it can't be too fast. All I can suggest is to keep trying, press the buttons firmly and try different speeds. Eventually it should work.


Another possibility is that you've already enabled Service Mode.. I ran into this issue. I expected it to pop up a new set of menus upon entry, like every other set I've messed with and was getting pretty frustrated. However with the HS50/51 it's more like a toggle that enables advanced menus in the standard menu. So you go through the enter blah blah sequence and you will get NOTHING in response the first time. But when you press the Menu button you should see the W/B menu and an S.

Ok, finally had some time to adjust my colors @ Kris and Bytehoven settings.
First Inputted the settings in the non-service menu using Custom1 as a base.
Hm, colors looked way off, so it taught my service menu settings must be off.
Yep, when calculating with Kris's and Byte's settings the settings in the service menu/Custom 1 don't equal.
Next try, inputting the settings Bytehoven suggested into the service menu. Hm, also way off, that's strange....
I think my HS50 (new model with ROM version 1.02/1.02 and SC 1.02 (newest?)) is a bit different.

Now what to do? Ok another strategy, i'm going to use Custom3 as my base now, as many reviews found it was the closest to D65. Dropping in The Incredibles THX optimizer (only useful calibration stuff i have at the moment), and brows to the color/gray ramp image. Now putting the same disk in my HTPC, using my EIZO L767 LCD at 6500K setting (hoping they did a good calibration job there :)), and now again try dialing the colors in, looking/comparing the gray part's of the image.

Going to do that again with my new DVD player, thinking about the new Pioneer DV-989AVi with HDMI. (Still using my old Sony DVP-S7700 with component :D)

To me, my colors are now much more the way i want them, looking exactly the way my HTPC on my EIZO L767/ nVDVD do's. And it's also close to my old 32" Trinitron picture. To be exact, it looks great now :D.
Is this because it's a European model, PAL or just my dvd player(which i doubt, because it's ok on my CRT) or am i simply doing somthing wrong?

I don't think my settings are useful to a load of you here, but i post them anyway:

Cinema Mode
Brightness: 60
Contrast: 80 if i go much higer, it gives me yellow/green tint's in whites.
Color: 54
Color Temp.:
Gain:
R: -24
G: 0
B: -7
Bias:
R: 0
G: 0
B: -7
Sharpness: 0-25
Iris: Auto
Lamp: Low
Gamma: Off
Blacklevel: Off

So i adjusted the numbers in the user menu only, for the moment.
My original/default Custom3 service menu values are:
Gain:
R: 128
G: 34
B: 67
Bias:
R: 123
G: 128
B: 129

Values in Custom1 service menu are:
Gain:
R: 128
G: 46
B: 107
Bias:
R: 125
G: 128
B: 130

Values in Custom2 service menu are:
Gain:
R: 128
G: 38
B: 89
Bias:
R: 123
G: 128
B: 130

Hi,

I cannot get to HS50 service menu with the instructions:

I just get the text 'Not applicable' when trying to click enter, enter etc. Can I really just be too slow in doing this or is there some other prerequisite than 'Setup/Status is turned ON' ??? Is HS50 different from HS51 in this matter or what could possibly cause this?
On my PJ it is no problem at all.
I do it fairly quick, less than 0.5 seconds between each key stroke i believe (defenitely less than 1 sec).
If it says not applicable while you are only halfways THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. Just push the entire sequence and then you will se the small orange display line at the bottom of the screen saying "do you want to blah balh blah) then you push the final UP for yes.

To get out of the service menu you repeat the procedure and here it isntead asks you to "do you want to...... to user menu" and then you push UP to get back to the user menu (aka remove W/B menu item).

But as you said - Status MUST be set to on to make this work.

I am running the old Firmware so i do not knwo if its harder on the new one :)

Regards
Boogieman

Pip -

Sticking with the HD Sports theme - How would the HS51 perform in a dimmed room? I have a dark room with dimmer lights. I imagine I would dim them to 70% of full light.

Would you still recommend the BenQ? Are you suggesting the PE7700 as the alternative to the HS51?

What's the downside of the BenQ (in addition to handling darks)?

BenQ's downside is that it aint as good as the HS-50 :D
Sharp XVZ2000 beats BenQ and HS50 beats Sharp XVZ2000 (unless you want a lot of light which might be good if you are going to have lights on).

- Dark room (aka dark walls and no ambient light) with lights TOTALLY off.
Use a white screen and you will be dazzled by the picture for e.g. movies.

- Dark room (aka dark walls and no ambient light) with lights 70% dimmed.
Use a stewart firehawk and you will mainteen really good black level and less washed out colours.

Though the best would of course allways be dark room no lights and white screen.
IT gives the best picture without a doubt. The darker the room, the better the movie experience :)

* Bright room or more light than normal cinema viewing - recomendation Sharp XVZ2000. Here you can even think of using the firehawk for all ocasions since the unit is so damn bright it really needs some dimming down or youll need to wear sunglasses not to burn your eyes ;)

* Dark room no lights - recomendation Sony HS-50. The most cinematic picture for the price (and a bunch of dollars up in the price range).


Buy a 50" plasma for sports instead and use the HS-50 for movies ;)
Then buy a goow motorized white screen that you roll down in front of the plasma when its movie time :)

Boogie

Thought i would post them here on AVS as well.
I have made some patterns for tweaking and tuning the HS-50 in VGA mode from HTPC (and one for 480i/p DVD players).
Or you could just use them to verify that dotpitch a.s.o. Try using e.g. powerstrip to adjust your screen output (excellent program and free to try as long as you like but with a small popup each time you start the puter diplaying tips about power strip). I have even managed to get 1280*720 from my laptop a dell Inspiron 8100 that originally did not support 1280*720 but a custom resolution was fixed in a breeze with theese patterns in conjunction with powerstrip.

To make it work there are some things to think of:
A. You must run VGA (Input A) to get 1:1 mapping.
B. You must display the FULL picture on your computer screen. Easiest way to do this is to open the picture in MsPaint (yeas the allways included paint program) and go to the "File" menu and choose "Set as background (centered)". Now you are sure that the full 1280*720 pixture is displayed on your Prpjector and/or PC dual screen.
C. You must set screen resolution to 1280*720 or use power strip to create such a resolution if your GFX card originally do not support it.

Explanation patterns:
Pattern 1 and 2:
* Different figures in size 1*1 pixel up to 10*10 pixels.
* Corner markers (angular elements) displaying the overscan in pixels for each corner (vert and horiz). At each angular element there is a nr of dots (or no dot). Each dot represent 2*pixels overscan. Example - in one corner you the first angle element tou see is the one displaying 3 dots next to it (the other ones are outside picture), this means that the overscan in that corner is 3*2 pixels = 6 pixels. If you see the angular element without any dots beside the overscan is 0 pixels. If you se all the full angle elements with no pixel next to it in all corners then you have achieved 1:1 pixel mapping. Congrats! :)


1. 720_Mono_BlackBack_WhiteDot.bmp
- 1280 * 720 bitmap.

2. 720_Mono_BlackBack_WhitePatterns.bmp
- 1280 * 720 bitmap. Added single dot cross hatch patterns (diagonal and horisontal). If 1:1 without convergence on panels theese should be sclearly visible and not a blur of grey (non 1:1 map) and/or colours (convergence error).

3. 480_Mono_BlackBack_WhiteDot.bmp
- 720*480 patter (should someone want t burn a picture CD and check how well 480p/i works on the HS50 this pattern is the one to use).

4-8. 5 different patterns with white or black background displaying patterns in either the base colours RGB or the complement colours Cyan Magenta Yellow. There is also one white pattern with black patterns on it.

On all of the above patterns there is also randomly placed 1*1 pixels to check for convergence errors. There is ONE pixel on the 4-8 patterns though that i accidentaly made 2*1 if i remember it right.


Goo luck with the tweaking :)
Boogieman

How would the Vutec Silverstar look with the HS51 compared to a Studiotec 130 or Firehawk? I have a Ultra white screen now in a fully light comtrolled room and am looking for a brighter image, better blacks and more pop in color.

I just had my lamp go out. 700 hours on it, and all of a sudden ... BANG! Very loud noise, and no picture. I was planning on ordering a backup bulb when I got to about 1500 hours, but now I have a rush delivery scheduled with UPS next day air.

I second the suggestion on having a backup lamp available. If nothing else, it will allow you to avoid the more expensive shipping charges.

Friar




all i can say is OMG.. I hope this isn't normal, anything under 1000 hours for a bulb seems way to low..

F.

Boogiem']On my PJ it is no problem at all.
I do it fairly quick, less than 0.5 seconds between each key stroke i believe (defenitely less than 1 sec).
If it says not applicable while you are only halfways THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. Just push the entire sequence and then you will se the small orange display line at the bottom of the screen saying "do you want to blah balh blah) then you push the final UP for yes.

To get out of the service menu you repeat the procedure and here it isntead asks you to "do you want to...... to user menu" and then you push UP to get back to the user menu (aka remove W/B menu item).

But as you said - Status MUST be set to on to make this work.

I am running the old Firmware so i do not knwo if its harder on the new one :)

Regards
Boogieman

No problem entering service menu with the new firmware, worked first try, pushing frequency close to 2 buttons/sec. on the remote :).

Thank you all for the good advice on how to enter service menu. I have now got this to work after a few tries and got the 'correct rhytm' in clicking those remote control buttons :) My old Sony HS10 was easier in this sense.

I have another question though. As I don't have any measurement devices or AVIA etc. , what is your opinion on what to experiment with the gain/bias and color temp settings when the setup is the following:

- Grey screen (painted DIY screen)
- VGA input from pc
- Cinema mode (the room has full light control)

Lots of folks have posted their settings here but I am assuming most use a normal white screen. So, is there anyone who can tell what were the best settings found when using a grey screen. Or do you have some general advice on how this thing should be tweaked to best retain the black levels and still get pure white shown on the screen?

With my old Sony HS10 the picture quality was a lot better after tweaking the gain and bias settings towards that direction that was the general opinion in the AVS forum HS10 threads. But with HS10 I think more people used grey screens because the black level was not so great in that projector. So, I'm hoping I could improve my HS50 picture quality in a similar manner, altough it looks quite great out of the box even (have had it for 4 days now)..

The settings for best grayscale will be the same wether your screen is white or gray.

Pip

OK, last night we where watching a movie with the new settings, posted here earlier.
Nothing special cos we just wanted to watch a movie, and not specifically to judge the new settings. We watched Spiderman II Superbit :D.

As i turned the red gain way down, and the blue gain and also the bias, i finally get rid of the much to red picture that didn't look as a warm 6500K, but more a burning hot K temperature :).
Also, the blue was not bad at all. But, as i didn't want to touch green last time, we did notice a very little bit of green sometimes, in the whole image dark and light. Logic result, cos greens where kept in balance/place.

What i did to try compensate this, after the movie :), was simply upping the red gain a little and also the blue gain and bias (but keeping the balance i found earlier). Red gain is now at -17, and the blue gain and bias are back to 0 for now.
Green looked almost ok now, but that's at the next movie to decide :).

As i don't have calibrating equipment, i still try this by eye, comparing it to my CRT and LCD. Going to buy AVIA and/or DVE soon.

What i didn't get out was a little pink color in the high white's. And as i already lowered red gain much, i think i must look somewhere else, doubt it's the red bias as i understand it's mainly for darker colors?
Still going to try that later, but it could be it's because my total colors are set higher, 53, or it's just an optical character with this PJ or it was simple in the movie :).

I also have to up the brightness a load. Think it is my prehistoric DVD player at component. Almost can't get the 7th block of the THX BL to show up, need it at 70 :rolleyes: . Lowering result in lost of more block's, highering don't get me much more, only bad grey background. So until a new HDMI player, it's sticking there for now.

Another thing i did find was at very dark scenes. A little bit of deep red in the very upper part of the screen. It's the iris i think?

Overall, the picture still looked better than it did with default settings, and already very happy with the total picture, and it's only getting better :).

Sharpness is now all the way down at 0, looked good. And contrast over 80 is chancing lighter white colors, so i might even back that up a little to say 78.

IS this thread dead....or locked or is there some "secret" HS-50 "hideout" that i dont know of :)

Regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']IS this thread dead....or locked or is there some "secret" HS-50 "hideout" that i dont know of :)

Regards
Boogieman

We're all sitting back watching our HS51's connected to our Denon 3910's watching glorious 720p via HDMI... :)

We're all sitting back watching our HS51's connected to our Denon 3910's watching glorious 720p via HDMI... :)

Greetings,

I would like to second that Eric !


Regards,

We're all sitting back watching our HS51's connected to our Denon 3910's watching glorious 720p via HDMI... :)


VGA here!!! lol

VGA here!!! lol

heh heh heh....

I am SOOOO shocked...:)

1:1 mapping naturally. ;)

Sometimes no news is good news :).
At the moment i got my settings, with Custom3 as a base, to:
Gain:
R: -10
G: -4
B: 4
Bias:
R: -10
G: -4
B: 4
Again, a load closer, now using my PC with DVI->HDMI, so i can make some test patterns myself in Paint Shop Pro :).
BlackLevel is now correct at around 50, with 16 as black. Very nice picture using nVDVD.
But going for a stand alone DVD anyway, cos even at exact 50Hz (PAL here) i can't get completely smooth pan's, and i can't watch a movie that is not fluid. So no HTPC for me :\. Image is OK, but nVDVD is not my taste of video, to be exact, i even like my old Sony DVP-S7700 via component almost that much.

Could an HS51 owner please tell me how long the AC power cord is that comes with the projector?

I need to make some calculations for a ceiling mount.

Thanks!

Could an HS51 owner please tell me how long the AC power cord is that comes with the projector?

I need to make some calculations for a ceiling mount.

Thanks!


I am almost certain it is the same length as a standard computer desktop power cord.

F.

I am almost certain it is the same length as a standard computer desktop power cord.

F.

Yep, just the same as any powercord you get with a PC. I'm going to make a new cable myself so i don't need ugly connectors half way the ceiling :).

I'd really like the exact length...24 inches, 36 inches, etc...

Not sure how long a standard PC power cord is?

A standard PC power cord is exactly a 72 inches. I am guess-tamating that the projector power cord is the same length, based on having installed the projector myself .

F.

I'd really like the exact length...24 inches, 36 inches, etc...

Not sure how long a standard PC power cord is?

My powercord is about 1.70 meter so that's 67 inches. I have a european HS50 model, don't know if the length in other country's is the same.

Man if you really need one I have a custom built for I'll sell you. 12' in length. I too was looking and looking for a longer power cord. Used Monter Power line 100, and has the needed Slim line IEC connector needed for the Sony

Well, here is the outcome!

I one word, Perfect.

Im using the exact configuration as above, and the image is mint. No more blanketing issues, Better contrast, better color. No video proccessing. YEA!

Looks quite abit better then HDMI in 720P mode!


do i have to buy a 300 dollar video converter, why can't i jsut use one of these?


type in "dvi- to vga" in ebay, and there are ones for like 30 bux, what gives
i mean, only 30 bux, why not, what is the diff between a 300 and a 30 dollar one?

-spyder

do i have to buy a 300 dollar video converter, why can't i jsut use one of these?


type in "dvi- to vga" in ebay, and there are ones for like 30 bux, what gives
i mean, only 30 bux, why not, what is the diff between a 300 and a 30 dollar one?

-spyder

It wont work because DVI can be both analog and a digital signal. Most device only send out a digital signal thru DVI, so you need whats called a DAC, (digital to analog converter) The cord will not work because the signal is just passed thru. and would stay digital. And Input A on the Sony only accepts analog signals.

It would work if your desplay device can output an analog DVI signal.

What size filters does the HS51 need? I've searched but don't see any references to sizes. Only that the 72mm is too big.

We're all sitting back watching our HS51's connected to our Denon 3910's watching glorious 720p via HDMI... :)


well, it seems like your picture is good enough,


well everyone that HASN'T USED TEH DAC CONVERTER/INPUT A read this?::

1. even you dont get 1:1 pixel mapping, isnt the picture still kickin' good?

2. how much will the 1:1 pixel mapping help the pj's images on the screen?

3. did the ppl who did the 1:1 trick, notice A VERY GREAT IMPROVMENT on the pj's image/sharpness/color?

-spyder

well, it seems like your picture is good enough,


well everyone that HASN'T USED TEH DAC CONVERTER/INPUT A read this?::

1. even you dont get 1:1 pixel mapping, isnt the picture still kickin' good?

2. how much will the 1:1 pixel mapping help the pj's images on the screen?

3. did the ppl who did the 1:1 trick, notice A VERY GREAT IMPROVMENT on the pj's image/sharpness/color?

-spyder

Thats a loaded, question... lol

First most didn't try it. The ones that did majority swear by it.

Couple still think HDMI looks better, But I think there are only thinking that because they still have there sharpness control.

I tryed both.

to me HDMI is clearly at a disadvantage. I notice big differences between the inputs. But I am one of the users who want the best out of there product. Sorry to the others, but if 1:1 mapping isnt a priority, then you should have stayed with a tube CRT, or CRT projection. On LCD, just like with computer monitors, you need to stay 1:1 to get the best, cleanest image. Both myself, and every other person that comes to my home, notices a difference right away.

If you live near milwaukee, I can show you the unbeatable Sony hs51 in 1:1 mapping

The only input that provides 1 to 1 pixel mapping is Input A in computer mode (VGA/RGB). All other inputs do some type of processing. 720P to HDMI does not seem to scale, but does seem to do some type of smoothing or averaging. Text looks thicker and smoother than using Input A, and a 1 pixel B&W checkerboard becomes uniform gray. At least this is the case with HTPC-DVI -> HDMI.


Sorry for the newbie question, but where could I find screen shots from hs50/51 1- pixel checkerboard? What does the 1:1 pixel perfect checkedboard look like?

I'm using iScan HD+ to test this, but this is my first projector and I'm still learning.

After reading most of this thread i'm still not sure if I should replace my HS20 with HS51... in my case my HS20 has given me problems more than 2 times so Sony can exchange it to the same new HS20 or give me a new HS51...

Did anyone compare them side by side?

Is a fan noise really quiet on HS51 compare to HS20?

How do I get an extra component or dvi input without spending $$$ on the hi end switch? I really need 2 components and one digital input (dvi or hdmi) or 2 digital and one component.

Are the wholes for the mounting kit is the same as HS20?

if sony will replace the hs20 with the hs51 for free i would do it. jeff

I would do it too.. in a second.. F.

How do I deal with a fact that I will not have enough inputs and would have to use a switch for that? I have 2 dvd players and HD box.

if sony will replace the hs20 with the hs51 for free i would do it. jeff

Is it true that you can actually achieve quite a bright picture with this projector if certain settings are made? Similar to the BenQ 7700.

~Josh

Does this projector have a built in scaler/converter, say from Farajouda or a similar company?

~Josh

What is the small USB port for in the back of the HS51?

~Josh

I am thinking of going with the HS51 but have a few opinion related questions. During Sunday's I would like to watch some Football with this projector with some natural light shinning through my basement windows. If I were to buy the Carada Brilliant White 106" screen, how would you think my viewing experience would be? How would this combination work for DVD's at night, with no light at all?

~Josh

How do I deal with a fact that I will not have enough inputs and would have to use a switch for that? I have 2 dvd players and HD box.

You need either a receiver with multiple HDMI/DVI inputs like a Denon 4806 or an external switchbox. Rarely will a projector have enough of the same type of inputs for all sources.....

Which switch would you recomment? Also since HDMI is for a/v and dvi is only fot video is it possible to use dvi cable from projector to the switch and use hdmi to dvi adapter? (reason im asking I already have a dvi cable pre-wired).

You need either a receiver with multiple HDMI/DVI inputs like a Denon 4806 or an external switchbox. Rarely will a projector have enough of the same type of inputs for all sources.....

Thats a loaded, question... lol

First most didn't try it. The ones that did majority swear by it.

Couple still think HDMI looks better, But I think there are only thinking that because they still have there sharpness control.

I tryed both.

to me HDMI is clearly at a disadvantage. I notice big differences between the inputs. But I am one of the users who want the best out of there product. Sorry to the others, but if 1:1 mapping isnt a priority, then you should have stayed with a tube CRT, or CRT projection. On LCD, just like with computer monitors, you need to stay 1:1 to get the best, cleanest image. Both myself, and every other person that comes to my home, notices a difference right away.

If you live near milwaukee, I can show you the unbeatable Sony hs51 in 1:1 mapping

I'd love to see this big difference because it is not there.

As for getting the best out of your product, you'd do well to get away from the Home Depot paint department and invest in a real screen that is designed for the PJ.

Save your money people, unless you are looking at computer text, there is no appreciable difference between VGA and HDMI.

really torn the between the ae700u or the hs-51 - once the avr3806 is out i will have to decide.... any other projectors that are worth looking at?

BenQ PE7700

~Josh

I'm only on page 20 of his 156 page thread so I may come across the answer, but until then
I would like to know how the light output of the 51 compares to my 10HT (no filters). Hopefully it is the saqme or brighter.

I had been considering the Benq 7700 or the OPtima 78dc3 as my replacement projector but then got to thinking about how much I have enjoyed my 10HT these past 5 years.

I use Draper 1.3 screen--no true light control in my room.

Shelly

Shelly,

You can read my review of the Sony HS51 vs. the BenQ PE7700 below. Make sure you read the whole thread as I have revised my review.

~Josh



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561025

I tryed both.

Have you figured out how to do basic calibration on your pj yet?

So far, I really enjoy this PJ. But I ran into a problem just now. I am using VGA connect my HTPC with this PJ. Everything runs great. Then I want to connect my both gaming systems (Sega DreamCast and PS2) to this PJ. For PS2, I am using Component port, it works out good too. For Dreamcast, I have VGA out as well. So, I bought a VGA switch (from D-link) to hook both Dreamcast and HTPC together. After I did that, I got a "Freqeuncy is out of range" problem. If I hook PJ directly to either HTPC or Dreamcast, both working fine.

So, my question is that what is going on? I do not know the VGA switch will change the input frequency. Any ideas?

Which switch would you recomment? Also since HDMI is for a/v and dvi is only fot video is it possible to use dvi cable from projector to the switch and use hdmi to dvi adapter? (reason im asking I already have a dvi cable pre-wired).

I do not use one myself, so I woujld not be able to recommend one. I know there have been many discussions throughout the forums on switches. You should do a search.

As to whether you should go HDMI or DVI you can get an adapter to attach to the end of your DVI to convert to HDMI since you have the cable run already. The question is more about how you plan to construct your system. If you are looking to take advantage at some time of the full capabilities of HDMI, then running one of them as well may be beneficial. That part is really up to you and what you are interested in for yourself.

Good luck! :)

I'm only on page 20 of his 156 page thread so I may come across the answer, but until then
I would like to know how the light output of the 51 compares to my 10HT (no filters). Hopefully it is the saqme or brighter.

I had been considering the Benq 7700 or the OPtima 78dc3 as my replacement projector but then got to thinking about how much I have enjoyed my 10HT these past 5 years.

I use Draper 1.3 screen--no true light control in my room.

Shelly

I am running a 10HT at one house and an HS51 at another both using a Stewart StudioTek 130 at 94" 16X9. The 10HT is SMART II calibrated with a CC40 Red filter to improve contrast and black levels.

The HS51 throws a better picture and the blacks are siginificantly better. Brightness is similar. Screen door is not a problem for either with more than a 1.5 seating distance.

I am using Dish HD for both and the 10HT has a Denon 5900 DVD via component vs a 3910 via HDMI for the HS51.

I have been very pleased with the 5 years I have had the 10HT. It was a great purchase. The HS51 is new technology and I enjoy the advancements that are available for the modest price. I expect to use them both for awhile.

Hope that helps!

I have the DVI to VGA converter and in the pJ Input A menu have selected Auto -it is infact the Video RGA as a default.
If I select computer as SOWK recommends I get a much much smaller image .
What is happening?

I have the DVI to VGA converter and in the pJ Input A menu have selected Auto -it is infact the Video RGA as a default.
If I select computer as SOWK recommends I get a much much smaller image .
What is happening?


What devce are you using? What setting are you using? You need to also have the unit send out a 720P signal.

A Few Questions about the HS51:

1. Does this projector have a built in scaler/converter, say from Farajouda or a similar company?

2. What is the small USB port for in the back of the HS51?

3. Is it true that you can actually achieve quite a bright picture with this projector if certain settings are made? Similar to the BenQ 7700.

~Josh

I am running a 10HT at one house and an HS51 at another both using a Stewart StudioTek 130 at 94" 16X9. The 10HT is SMART II calibrated with a CC40 Red filter to improve contrast and black levels.

The HS51 throws a better picture and the blacks are siginificantly better. Brightness is similar. Screen door is not a problem for either with more than a 1.5 seating distance.

I am using Dish HD for both and the 10HT has a Denon 5900 DVD via component vs a 3910 via HDMI for the HS51.

I have been very pleased with the 5 years I have had the 10HT. It was a great purchase. The HS51 is new technology and I enjoy the advancements that are available for the modest price. I expect to use them both for awhile.

Hope that helps!

Thanks Eric.

At least it is not dimmer than the 10HT.

I usually start my summer movie watching before sundown and the picture is somewhat washed out but viewable. Once it gets very dark outside, the picture shines. The improved CR and blacks of the HS51 should hopefully make for a better picture early in the evening.

Shelly

PS. thanks for the link Josh. I'll read it later this morning. The 7700 and hs51 seem to have similar street prices now.

Which switch would you recomment?

The new Gefen 2:1 HDMI switcher has worked flawlessly for me. I have noticed absolutely no degradation in PQ whatsoever with the switcher in-line. I run a DVD-3910 and a Atlanta Scientific HD DVR, both outputting 720p via HDMI to the HS51. The IR remote is tiny.

Can someone list TOP 3 HDMI/DVI digital 4x1 switches in the $500 range? Gefen i know is one of the popular once but I don't like the fact that it has connections on the front which means I would have to hide it somewhere.

but I don't like the fact that it has connections on the front which means I would have to hide it somewhere

Not sure what you mean.....my particular switcher has dual inputs and a single output in the rear. The front face is simply an indicator light of which input is being used. The switcher box itself is very small (like a pack of cigarettes), and it sits right next to my HD DVR box on the same shelf and it's almost unnoticeable.

Not sure what you mean.....my particular switcher has dual inputs and a single output in the rear. The front face is simply an indicator light of which input is being used. The switcher box itself is very small (like a pack of cigarettes), and it sits right next to my HD DVR box on the same shelf and it's almost unnoticeable.

Which brand and model are you talking about?

A Few Questions about the HS51:

1. Does this projector have a built in scaler/converter, say from Farajouda or a similar company?

2. What is the small USB port for in the back of the HS51?

3. Is it true that you can actually achieve quite a bright picture with this projector if certain settings are made? Similar to the BenQ 7700.

~Josh
1. The Sony has built in de-interlacing and scaling. Not Faroudja. Some reviews indicated it was made by Sony, but one review that opened it up showed a Pixelworks chip.

2. You can connect a PC to the USB port and use the included ImageDirector software to create custom Gamma settings.

3. Don't know since I have never tried to maximize brightness and have never seen a BenQ 7700.

Sorry for the newbie question, but where could I find screen shots from hs50/51 1- pixel checkerboard? What does the 1:1 pixel perfect checkedboard look like?

I'm using iScan HD+ to test this, but this is my first projector and I'm still learning.
That quote must have been way back there somewhere.

I posted some pictures of the checkerboard way back in this thread (Nov-Dec 2004?), but they weren't very good.

Just get close enough to your screen to clearly see the grid lines between the pixels. If the 1x1 pixel checkerboard is displaying correctly, you should clearly see that each row or column of the grid consists of alternating white and black pixels. Each white pixel should have a black pixel above, below, and to either side, and white pixels diagonal to it. The black pixels won't actually be black, they will be more of a gray color, but this is due to limitations in what the PJ can display.

Which brand and model are you talking about?

This is the HDMI Switcher (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3055) that I'm using. It's very small and discrete.

This switch is 2x1. I was talking about 4x1. For some reason none of Gefen 4x1 HDMI switches have all of the inputs and outputs on the back... they all have outputs on the front...

This is the HDMI Switcher (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3055) that I'm using. It's very small and discrete.

This switch is 2x1. I was talking about 4x1. For some reason none of Gefen 4x1 HDMI switches have all of the inputs and outputs on the back... they all have outputs on the front...

Well, I don't see a Gefen 4x1 HDMI Switcher, but I do see a 4x2 HDMI Switcher with mirrored outputs. It has all the inputs on the back, just like mine.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3099

originally posted by shelly
Thanks Eric.

At least it is not dimmer than the 10HT.

Shelly: I'm sorry, but I must disagree with Eric on this. I switched from a 10HT to a HS51, and I had them in the same room for quite a while. Even my Smarted 10HT with a CC20 and 600 hours in the lamp was brighter than my HS51 with a brand new lamp. However, it's important to remember that the HS51 image is far superior to the 10HT. I did make the upgrade, and don't regret it one bit. I am not one for superlatives or hyperbole, but there is simply no contest between the images of these two projectors.

originally posted by beatboy77

3. Is it true that you can actually achieve quite a bright picture with this projector if certain settings are made? Similar to the BenQ 7700.


The HS51 is nowhere near as bright as the BenQ 7700, nor can it be adjusted to be. I had the HS51 and the Toshiba MT700 (BenQ clone) side by side in my house for several weeks. If you search my user name you will find a detailed comparison of these two. Both machines are excellent, and this is not a criticism of either one. I own the Sony, but the Toshiba, even with a ND2 filter and it's lamp on low, was substantially brighter than the Sony with it's lamp on high. And if you open up both projectors to their brightest, the Toshiba was much brighter than the Sony.

Setting the Sony to lamp on high etc. results in a very small increase in lumen output over it's highest contrast low lamp setting. My 10HT had a larger difference between high and low lamp than the HS51. Opening up the Toshiba with it's lamp on high and white peaking on is a substantial increase in brightness above it's aleady bright image.

Pip

This is the one I was talking about. Seems to be exactly what I need.

Well, I don't see a Gefen 4x1 HDMI Switcher, but I do see a 4x2 HDMI Switcher with mirrored outputs. It has all the inputs on the back, just like mine.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3099

What devce are you using? What setting are you using? You need to also have the unit send out a 720P signal.

The converter is the Dtrovision unit.
The DVD player is a Samsung HD747 with a DVI outputting 720P

The converter is the Dtrovision unit.
The DVD player is a Samsung HD747 with a DVI outputting 720P

All outputs from DVD player into input A results in small image.

I need a suggestion from you guys. I had my HS20 repaired several times and now SONY is giving me opportunity to replace it with a new HS20 or pay extra $450 and get a brand new HS51. Do you guys think its worth paying $450 extra to get HS51 or should I just get a new HS20 and stick with it?

VGA here!!! lol


SOWK, could I ask you for a favour.

If you download my patterns located right HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5917951&&#post5917951) and run the one with the different cross hatch patterns, 2*2 dot grid both diagonal and horisontal (=as detailed as it gets with 1 line black, 1 line white and so on).
Run grid patterns on Input A - take a close up photo.
Run grid patterns on HDMI - take a close up photo.
Post the photos in full resolution (possibly they need to be cut a bit) here at the forum.
This would VERY WELL display the difference between 1:1 map and non 1:1 map.
I am so close to go for the HDMI to DVI converter, buy a HDMI player and go for a testride but i would love to see the patterns with your converter first to see if there is any problem with moire, no real 1:1 or likewise.

If you want to you could also show the corner markers that show that you actually have 1:1 map (se thread link above for info how to see it).


And it would be a good pinhole to show what Ipnut-A goes for besides "normal" pictures :)

Clickable JPEG example attatched below (this one is JPG - the original 8 pictures in the zip are uncompressed monochrome bitmaps and is the ones that should be used fo 100% correct results).
If you click up the full size of the picture below in your browser then it will not look good if you have set your browser to enlarge/shrink picture to screen width (it might look odd even if it is displayed correct due to your monitor, correctly displayed there should be no bleeding in the cross hatches and no moire effect or any integration of the gridlines......on the HS-50 this can be displayed 1:1 via Input A but if you suffer from misaligned panels it still might get a bit blurred but not as much as it would on a non 1:1 picture).

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/536369/0/nouser_536/T1_-1_536369.JPG (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=536369)
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

Regards
Boogieman

I will do. When I get the time.!

I currently have my Sony 10HT upside down (resting on rice-filled pillow) on a high shelf so that the center of the lens is even with the top of my screen. At the time I thought that any "ceiling mounted" projector had to be upside down. The appropriate setting for ceiling mount was chosen in the menu.

My question is whether I can place the HS51 right side up instead of upside down on this same shelf. The center of the lens would probably still be even with the top of my screen.

Would the lens shift throw my image down onto the screen with the projector right side up on this high shelf?

Shelly

You can certainly place an HS51 right side up on a shelf.

The lens shift works the same whether the HS51 is right side up or upside down. The image will shift the same amount up as it will down. The only thing that ceiling mount does is flip the image in software (electronically). The only potential difference is that the lens may not be perfectly centered on the box. So, you might have an inch or so of difference if that is true. I can't remember.

http://prices.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/0,20002875,20652569p,00.htm

This site says the HS50 has an expansion slot for a memory stick? I cant seem to find such a slot on my unit? Is it perhaps a UK feature?

You can certainly place an HS51 right side up on a shelf.

The lens shift works the same whether the HS51 is right side up or upside down. The image will shift the same amount up as it will down. The only thing that ceiling mount does is flip the image in software (electronically). The only potential difference is that the lens may not be perfectly centered on the box. So, you might have an inch or so of difference if that is true. I can't remember.

Thanks Reaper. This will make things easier for me.

Shelly

PS: My wife's family farm is in Frankfurt. Go Hoosiers! (Sorry for the off-topic.)

I have had my HS51 since Christmas. The picture was very sharp. I am sending in to Laredo next week for the upgrade and also because it seems like the alignment has shifted.

When I first got the unit I has very happy that I could not find any misaligment. About 2 months ago I noticed the green was bleeding at the bottom on menus and program guides. This last month I started seeing the red bleeding on the top of menus and program guides. The picture has gotten soft because of this.

Is anyone else having this sort of problem? I thought the panel alignment would not change over time. I'm not a great photographer but am attaching a picture of the issue.

Try to attach the photo again:

maybe u missed the panel mis alignment because you were so in love when it first arrived? Unless you bumped it really hard or dropped the unit I wouldnt think it would misalign itself but crazier things have happened I think its more likely that u just didnt notice it when you first got it. But its definetly misaligned. jeff

First thing is it is mounted on the ceiling at 8 feet +plus or minus. My ceiling is 10 feet and it is monted on a chief mount with 2 feet down to meet the top of the screen. Only adjustments I have made there are sometimes the lens shift slides a little or making sure focus is at its best. Also the room is a bonus room on the second floor so no one walks above the equipment or anything like that. I spent multiple times during the first 2 months trying all kinds of adjustments posted on AVS. Never ever saw any hint at misalignment.

First thing is it is mounted on the ceiling at 8 feet +plus or minus. My ceiling is 10 feet and it is monted on a chief mount with 2 feet down to meet the top of the screen. Only adjustments I have made there are sometimes the lens shift slides a little or making sure focus is at its best. Also the room is a bonus room on the second floor so no one walks above the equipment or anything like that. I spent multiple times during the first 2 months trying all kinds of adjustments posted on AVS. Never ever saw any hint at misalignment.

I have a question. I'm getting a new HS51 in few days shipped to me directly from SONY (replacement for my HS20). How can I make sure that I have the latest firmware update on it?

Go to this link and put in you serial number.

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?template=EN&mdl_id=3829&news_id=67

This thread has the latest version posted through out but I don't recall the version number.

I have come to the conclusion that the Dtrovision Dvi to VGA converter is a total waste of money.
This tiny box does not remove the blanking issue when inputting 720p -In fact when executing this signal through the Input A -computer mode , the image is curtailed to a ridiculously small size.
I have accepted now that only 1080i gives an acceptable size image - But not implementing Input A -computer mode. Only Video RGB appears acceptable if using Input A.

I have come to the conclusion that the Dtrovision Dvi to VGA converter is a total waste of money.
This tiny box does not remove the blanking issue when inputting 720p -In fact when executing this signal through the Input A -computer mode , the image is curtailed to a ridiculously small size.
I have accepted now that only 1080i gives an acceptable size image - But not implementing Input A -computer mode. Only Video RGB appears acceptable if using Input A.

"ding ding ding" we have a winner. ;-)

I am running my updated HS-51 via DVI from a Denon 3910 at 720p and 1080i, and I love the image. So close to the performance of a RP-91-SDI & Iscan HD-SDI combo, only someone who knows what to look for, could tell the difference.

Save the cabbage on the DVI->VGA converter, and invest it in a better player like the 3910, 59avi or 5910 if you have nicer pockets.

My question is whether I can place the HS51 right side up instead of upside down on this same shelf. The center of the lens would probably still be even with the top of my screen.

Would the lens shift throw my image down onto the screen with the projector right side up on this high shelf?

Shelly

I built a wall to wall shelf in the nook/bar area in the back of my HT. The 7' long shelf is 7.5" down from the ceiling, which is plenty of room to get the projector in/out as well as make leg adjustments.

The lens shift has plenty of range, as the top of my screen is currently 18" down from the ceiling, offering plenty of room to mount my front left, right and dual center channel speakers over the screen. I could lower the screen even more, as there is some lens shift still available.

IMHO, I wish more projectors offered the range of flexibility we have on the HS-51.

Assuming my unit will have an update already would i need to make any other changes except for calibrating projector?

I have come to the conclusion that the Dtrovision Dvi to VGA converter is a total waste of money.

Hmmm...5 hours passed and no reply from SOWK? :)
He would most likely be the guy to guide you to a full picture.
As I remember it you must feed the DTRO with 720p picture otherwise the image is scaled down.

Regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']Hmmm...5 hours passed and no reply from SOWK? :)
He would most likely be the guy to guide you to a full picture.
As I remember it you must feed the DTRO with 720p picture otherwise the image is scaled down.

Regards
Boogieman


Thats exactly what I'm doing -but still get the blanking

"ding ding ding" we have a winner. ;-)

I am running my updated HS-51 via DVI from a Denon 3910 at 720p and 1080i, and I love the image. So close to the performance of a RP-91-SDI & Iscan HD-SDI combo, only someone who knows what to look for, could tell the difference.

Save the cabbage on the DVI->VGA converter, and invest it in a better player like the 3910, 59avi or 5910 if you have nicer pockets.


If the players you suggest will give me 1.1 then I'll get one tomorrow and dump the converter.

"ding ding ding" we have a winner. ;-)

I am running my updated HS-51 via DVI from a Denon 3910 at 720p and 1080i, and I love the image. So close to the performance of a RP-91-SDI & Iscan HD-SDI combo, only someone who knows what to look for, could tell the difference.

Save the cabbage on the DVI->VGA converter, and invest it in a better player like the 3910, 59avi or 5910 if you have nicer pockets.

First Smarty pants, look at my pics... Hummm.. I have the Denon 3910! wow. thats cool! lol. Second you have never tryed the device, so dont spout claims you can't support.

I have both. So I can. :p

And I get to the previous poster! :)

-SOWK, I will be doing the pics tomarrow for Boogiem.

I have come to the conclusion that the Dtrovision Dvi to VGA converter is a total waste of money.
This tiny box does not remove the blanking issue when inputting 720p -In fact when executing this signal through the Input A -computer mode , the image is curtailed to a ridiculously small size.
I have accepted now that only 1080i gives an acceptable size image - But not implementing Input A -computer mode. Only Video RGB appears acceptable if using Input A.

You aperently have no idea how to setup your equipment. Because if your saying 480P does not give an acceptable image size. then you really have stuff messed up!

Also after you go into Input-A - computer mode, did you hit APA? and then correct the dot phaze for 1:1 mapping?

What dvd player are you using?

What setting on the inside of the player are u using?


Also BTW... None of thoese players will offer you 1:1 Mapping on the Sony HS-50/51. Only the device you think doesn't work! Figure your stuff out, then come back and appologize for giving incorrect information. Other wise You may have a defective DVI-to VGA. but if you can pass 1080i thru it in video GBR mode, then it has to be something else.

Boogiem']Hmmm...5 hours passed and no reply from SOWK? :)
He would most likely be the guy to guide you to a full picture.
As I remember it you must feed the DTRO with 720p picture otherwise the image is scaled down.

Regards
Boogieman

Tues, and thurs day night I am sometimes at my parents, so no computer. But your right I will help anyone that has questions on the DVI-VGA-CONVERTER.

masterpasser,

Are you on PAL? I refer to your own post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5334252&&#post5334252

Another option is the new converter here:

http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/dda.asp

I do not know if it works for PAL. Li On has both the converters now. I think he's from Hong Kong and he may be able to check if either of the converters work for PAL.

Here's his very recent comments on both converters:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=568549

Another option is the new converter here:

http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/dda.asp



Does anyone know if it is HDCP compliant?

SOWK,

I think it is HDCP compliant. Kei mentioned about it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5917322&&#post5917322

First Smarty pants, look at my pics... Hummm.. I have the Denon 3910! wow. thats cool! lol. Second you have never tryed the device, so dont spout claims you can't support.


A DVI->VGA converter is a benefit to a projector/display which does not have a HDMI/DVI input.

A projector/display equipped with an HMDI/DVI input, does not need the DVI->VGA converter.

I have tried many equipment confirgurations with the HS-51 both pre & post update, as well as a few other projectors & displays. So far, my experience has suggested this decending level of quality on the HS-51...

5910 -> HDMI
RP-91 via SDI -> Iscan HD -> HS-51 via DVI.
3910 -> HDMI & DVI
RP-91 via SDI -> Iscan HD -> HS-51 via RGBHV Input A
Panasonic XP-30 at 480p component
3910/RP-91-Iscan -> HS-51 via a DVI/VGA converter.

I have not tried to use the DVI/VGA converter with a HTPC which outputs a poor HDMI/DVI signal, and I would probably believe the DVI/VGA converter is a better alternative in such cases. But the DVI/VGA converter being a better connetion with the 3910, than the HDMI or DVI to the HS-51? No Way.

Bottom line... the $179 or more price tag of the DVI/VGA converter is better spent on an upgrade to a better player or external processor like the Iscan HD/HD+.

masterpasser,

Are you on PAL? I refer to your own post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5334252&&#post5334252

Another option is the new converter here:

http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/dda.asp

I do not know if it works for PAL. Li On has both the converters now. I think he's from Hong Kong and he may be able to check if either of the converters work for PAL.

Here's his very recent comments on both converters:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=568549

Yes I am on PAL.
So it does appear the converter does not work for my set up .
Having read read the 5910 could be the best solution , I'm going to demo one today -Its only money after all!

A DVI->VGA converter is a benefit to a projector/display which does not have a HDMI/DVI input.

A projector/display equipped with an HMDI/DVI input, does not need the DVI->VGA converter.

I have tried many equipment confirgurations with the HS-51 both pre & post update, as well as a few other projectors & displays. So far, my experience has suggested this decending level of quality on the HS-51...

5910 -> HDMI
RP-91 via SDI -> Iscan HD -> HS-51 via DVI.
3910 -> HDMI & DVI
RP-91 via SDI -> Iscan HD -> HS-51 via RGBHV Input A
Panasonic XP-30 at 480p component
3910/RP-91-Iscan -> HS-51 via a DVI/VGA converter.

I have not tried to use the DVI/VGA converter with a HTPC which outputs a poor HDMI/DVI signal, and I would probably believe the DVI/VGA converter is a better alternative in such cases. But the DVI/VGA converter being a better connetion with the 3910, than the HDMI or DVI to the HS-51? No Way.

Bottom line... the $179 or more price tag of the DVI/VGA converter is better spent on an upgrade to a better player or external processor like the Iscan HD/HD+.

Well, first if what you have tested is correct, you have tested alot of different ways. I do like that. I just want to know why you prefer HDMI over VGA? What about the picture is better? Is it sharper? are you able to get 1:1 mapping like vga? Can you get better blacks? I to this day have seen no benefits... I have been trying both, but I still can't, no matter how much tweaking i put in, to get a better pic thru HDMI.

Example.

I have the Denon 3910 hooked up both HDMI, and DVI thru the DVI to VGA converter. When I use the Converter and setup the denon to input 720P, I can have my brightness at about 45 to get an as accurate grey scale as I can with the Sony hs-51. But when I chg the denon to HDMI output, I have to bring the brightness up to around 74 to get accurate greyscale.

Why may this be?

Also Once I do that, the blacks are no longer as "black" Now the bars at the top and bottom of some widescreen moves bother me, and the image loses some three dimensionality. I can raise the color, and contrast to help minimize the effect, but I still can't get a pic as good. Plus to me really the 1:1 mapping does allow me to get a more detailed image. Strands of hair look better, Pours in people faces stand out more. Yes I will admit sometimes and grainy movie will look worse as HDMI will smooth out the image a little. but this is what I am experiencing.

-SOWK

Yes I am on PAL.
So it does appear the converter does not work for my set up .
Having read read the 5910 could be the best solution , I'm going to demo one today -Its only money after all!

Can you have your device send out a 60htz signal?

If so try that!

Boogiem']SOWK, could I ask you for a favour.



http://show.imagehosting.us/show/536369/0/nouser_536/T1_-1_536369.JPG (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=536369)
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

Regards
Boogieman

Here you go,

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/1633/testvgavshdmi1ru.jpg

*Make sure your brower is not srinking the image.* Warning Very High Res Pic*
Top pics are VGA, Bottem HDMI!

Anything else you would like me to try?

... when I chg the denon to HDMI output, I have to bring the brightness up to around 74 to get accurate greyscale.

I have posted many times, my HS-51 settings for others to try, and never has my brightness been above 55. Even since adding the 3910, the only thing that may change is a little reduction in the green bias & gain for a touch better white balance.

You are definitely doing something wrong for you to have the brightness set at 74 with the 3910 HDMI output.

Others have suggested you are not properly calibrating your system, and I am beginning to agree with them.

1:1 pixel mapping is over rated as a primary consideration. I had the benefit of perfect pixel mapping with the pre-update HS-51 and the Iscan HD via both VGA-INput A and DVI. Since switching to the post-update HS-51, 1:1 mapping is more elusive. But guess what? It doesn't matter. 720p & 1080i HDMI/DVI performance on the updated projector is still excellent. If anything, the VGA input on the pre & post HS-51, produces a little excess edge enhancement, which some might confuse as improved clarity or resolution reproduction. Personally I hate excessive edge enhancement, and love the ability to turn the HS-51 sharpness all the way down to the "OFF" position, so no edge detail is ADDED to the image. I can see how you might consider the sharpness being set to OFF as taking away resolution or clarity, however the opposite is true. Running the sharpness above OFF, is simply ADDING edge noise to an otherwise perfect picture. The Input A connection inability to reduce sharpness, passes excessive edge noise and makes for an overly sharp image, with obvious line edge ringing.

The real area where the DVI & HDMI connections are superior, is in color, contrast and grayscale reproduction, offering superior HD like reproduction.

The DVI->VGA converter is a great option for a display without a HMDI/DVI input. Otherwise, I have yet to see an advantage when comparing properly calibrated displays.

Hey guys. Check out my in home eval of the HS-51 using a 3910 as one of the sources.

Ken's In Home Eval... (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569316)

Ken

I can see how you might consider the sharpness being set to OFF as taking away resolution or clarity, however the opposite is true. Running the sharpness above OFF, is simply ADDING edge noise to an otherwise perfect picture..

I had sharpness set at 20-25 for the first week or so. Since then I've turned it OFF and haven't looked back.

Others have suggested you are not properly calibrating your system, and I am beginning to agree with them.

1:1 pixel mapping is over rated as a primary consideration. I had the benefit of perfect pixel mapping with the pre-update HS-51 and the Iscan HD via both VGA-INput A and DVI. Since switching to the post-update HS-51, 1:1 mapping is more elusive. But guess what? It doesn't matter. 720p & 1080i HDMI/DVI performance on the updated projector is still excellent. If anything, the VGA input on the pre & post HS-51, produces a little excess edge enhancement, which some might confuse as improved clarity or resolution reproduction. Personally I hate excessive edge enhancement, and love the ability to turn the HS-51 sharpness all the way down to the "OFF" position, so no edge detail is ADDED to the image. I can see how you might consider the sharpness being set to OFF as taking away resolution or clarity, however the opposite is true. Running the sharpness above OFF, is simply ADDING edge noise to an otherwise perfect picture. The Input A connection inability to reduce sharpness, passes excessive edge noise and makes for an overly sharp image, with obvious line edge ringing.

The real area where the DVI & HDMI connections are superior, is in color, contrast and grayscale reproduction, offering superior HD like reproduction.


First off I was using your settings. So if you don't know how to calibrate then I guess my unit isn't calibrated. Second look at the post right above the one you wrote this, and click the link, tell me you think the image thru HDMI is anything as good as the 1:1 mapped vga? Are you people crazy? If you want blurry pics, so you can get ride of developer mistakes, fine. Use HDMI, and set for 0 Sharpness. But when there is a finely produced moive, Gladiator - Fifth Element so on and so forth, you are just loosing pic quality. Exspecially when HD DVD's come out. Anyone that is using a HTPC, or my device can tell you the same thing. Also BTW, in order to get accurate coloring from HDMI, there is a lot more tweaking that needs to be done then thru VGA. Plus I have seen no benifit for Contrast. Actually a reduction.

In Post #4,611, (on page 154 of this thread), I made some comments about the HS51 that I would now like to modify. I ended up buying an HS51 to replace my HS20, primarily because my auditions of DLP pj's demonstrated that I could see the dreaded rainbow artifact. I therefore decided to take my chances on the HS 51. Overall, I'm glad I did.

Hooked up to my Sony 975 upscaling DVD player via HDMI, the HS51 provides a picture that is stunning. The resolution is certainly as good as my HS20. The black levels, shadow detail and contrast are far superior to my HS20. The HS51 is not as bright a projector as the HS20, but it is acceptable, and color saturation is virtually the same as the HS20.

I also have a Scientific Atlanta SA8300HD CATV box with DVR and HDMI outputs. When I hook it up directly to the HS51's HDMI inputs, it works fine and the resulting picture is even more stunning than the upscaled DVD player's picture. However, there is a glitch in the SA box that doesn't allow it to be "switched" by some of the new HDMI switching receivers. For now, I have it hooked up through the component interconnects and switched by the receiver. The picture is a little softer and has a little more video noise. I can live with it until SA releases a firmware upgrade for the 8300.

I have input Kris Deerings RBG values in the Service menu. I then ran Avia and set my Contrast (84), Brightness (55), Color (44), and Hue (51). I now have flesh tones that are spot on, colors that appear correctly saturated and VERY dark blacks. The ONLY slight downside to this pj is that it could use a little more brightness. However, in a light controlled room, it's brightness is acceptable.

Craig

Has anyone heard anything about a possible Sony replacement for the HS51 yet that might have more light output?

I'm hanging in there with my trusty Sony 10HT and a 120" diagonal Stewart Grayhawk screen.

The HS51 apparently has less light output than the 10HT, I would like more.

Thank you.

Can you have your device send out a 60htz signal?

If so try that!

I don't honestly know , but I'll investigate . Thanks for that.

Another issue I'm having the pj on continuously -in excess of 10 hours a night - I've elected to engage the high altitude fan mode to maximise cooling of the bulb.
Do you reckon this is excessive?

Has anyone heard anything about a possible Sony replacement for the HS51 yet that might have more light output?

I'm hanging in there with my trusty Sony 10HT and a 120" diagonal Stewart Grayhawk screen.

The HS51 apparently has less light output than the 10HT, I would like more.

Thank you.


I believe Sony subscribes the 1-2 year model [number] tweak with a major re-release [new model] about every 4-5 years.

2 cents.

First off I was using your settings. So if you don't know how to calibrate then I guess my unit isn't calibrated.

I think I now have (14) different RGB Bias & Gain setting configurations I have tried. Let me count them.... yes fourteen variations I and others have posted.

Which variation are you using?

One group of settings Kris posted from his 5910, works well with the 3910...

Contrast 78
Brightness 55
Color 44
Hue 51
Sharpness OFF/0
Gamma Off
Black Off
R Gain 140
G Gain 69
B Gain 104
R Bias 123
G Bias 128
B Bias 128

I have several variations from the Custom 1 WB setup, of which this is also a variation.

Regarding sharpness... I don't know what to tell ya except you are not alone. There are many folks who feel an image with "perfect" sharpness looks soft, and that some degree of added edge enhancement looks better. I will simply never agree.

The HS-51 with the sharpness in the OFF position is reproducing a FLAT image with respect to sharpness. Any adjustment of the sharpness control UP, or using the Input A connection when the sharpness control is defeated, is adding edge enhancement to the image.

In some ways this sharpness debate is not unlike the DCDi & 504 deinterlacer debate. The DCDi adds a little edge enhancement in it's processing, while the 504 image is smoother. Hence you have those who lend support to the 504 saying it is more "film like", while other support DCDi because it "looks" sharper.

The HS-51 HDMI input offers excellent image quality, and IMHO is the preferred connection over all others when a HDMI/DVI source is available.

The 3910 is a great player. The 3910 with the HS-51 ia a great combination, supressing any MB some see on other displays. I would certainly consider an upgrade to the 5910 due to it's superior noise reduction, but I can't personally justify the cost difference.

Folks making a decision for themselves, should give the DVI->VGA converter a test drive, but only if they buy from a reseller willing to offer a refund when they experience no benefit from the device.

First off I was using your settings. So if you don't know how to calibrate then I guess my unit isn't calibrated. Second look at the post right above the one you wrote this, and click the link, tell me you think the image thru HDMI is anything as good as the 1:1 mapped vga? Are you people crazy? If you want blurry pics, so you can get ride of developer mistakes, fine. Use HDMI, and set for 0 Sharpness. But when there is a finely produced moive, Gladiator - Fifth Element so on and so forth, you are just loosing pic quality. Exspecially when HD DVD's come out. Anyone that is using a HTPC, or my device can tell you the same thing. Also BTW, in order to get accurate coloring from HDMI, there is a lot more tweaking that needs to be done then thru VGA. Plus I have seen no benifit for Contrast. Actually a reduction.

That comment on VGA in regards to color is absolute crap. VGA is analog therefore there can be a lot of inconsistency in voltages so your color output may not be correct and you have no way of correcting for it. HDMI on the other hand can be dialed in perfect both for SD and HD colorspaces.

There is no blurry picture on my screen via HDMI with SD or HD material. The only time I noticed ANY difference in sharpness between VGA and HDMI was the text of the menus or with certain test patterns. Never with real world viewing with normal material. And HD-DVD isn't going to be any different then the D-Theater tapes I play back already all the time or the HD content I watch with HD PVR in terms of sharpness. Only differnce is, you'll never get the chance to watch HD-DVD via VGA because the HD output is going to be limited to HDMI only!

Here you go,

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/1633/testvgavshdmi1ru.jpg

*Make sure your brower is not srinking the image.* Warning Very High Res Pic*
Top pics are VGA, Bottem HDMI!

Anything else you would like me to try?

Ok got it now - se there are three sections.
For each section the upper part is VGA right.

Thank you very much for the effort.


The difference is amazing but it really looks like something is totally wrong with the HDMI picture.

1.
First its smaller than the VGA picture so it doesnt make up for a real 100% comparison but still you can see that the patterns are much more detailed on the VGA due to the mapping.

2. The HDMI picture is so dull I am wondering if you calibrated the picture when switching. It allmost looks like you have used two different cameras :)
I mean the VGA picture is surely 1;1 mapped and HDMI is not (just look at the squares or the cross hatch) but the realtive contrast/brightness of the HDMI shows that it is most likely not post calibrated.

3. The middle picture is the one that I can rely on the most since its closer to being as bright but still one can see that the edges of the 1:1 mapped picture is a lot sharper while the HDMI picture is smoothed out or smeared off (not allways a bad thing but still the difference is huge)

4. You are one lucky guy - your PJs panels are allost perfcetly aligned. Only about 1/4 - 1/2 off at blue. Lucky SOB :D

5. Seems like the VGA-DVI converter is doing a really good job on stills at least.
No artefacts at all from what i can see.


Thanks a lot for the comparison.
As soon as i get the time i will bring in my stationary PC and try VGA.
Have only tried it with my laptop so far and maged to get 1:1 map with powerstrip.
But i dont have DVI out on the laptop so for a better comaprison ill use my stationary with a leadtek A6600GT (with the "video enhancement" turned on).

Will be interesting to see if there is a big difference there.
Will also borrow a DVD player with HDMI from a friend and compare it thoroughly with fil material and calibrate one set for each input.


Regards
Boogieman

Boogiem']Ok got it now - se there are three sections.
For each section the upper part is VGA right.

Thank you very much for the effort.


The difference is amazing but it really looks like something is totally wrong with the HDMI picture.

1.
First its smaller than the VGA picture so it doesnt make up for a real 100% comparison but still you can see that the patterns are much more detailed on the VGA due to the mapping.

2. The HDMI picture is so dull I am wondering if you calibrated the picture when switching. It allmost looks like you have used two different cameras :)
I mean the VGA picture is surely 1;1 mapped and HDMI is not (just look at the squares or the cross hatch) but the realtive contrast/brightness of the HDMI shows that it is most likely not post calibrated.

3. The middle picture is the one that I can rely on the most since its closer to being as bright but still one can see that the edges of the 1:1 mapped picture is a lot sharper while the HDMI picture is smoothed out or smeared off (not allways a bad thing but still the difference is huge)

4. You are one lucky guy - your PJs panels are allost perfcetly aligned. Only about 1/4 - 1/2 off at blue. Lucky SOB :D

5. Seems like the VGA-DVI converter is doing a really good job on stills at least.
No artefacts at all from what i can see.


Thanks a lot for the comparison.
As soon as i get the time i will bring in my stationary PC and try VGA.
Have only tried it with my laptop so far and maged to get 1:1 map with powerstrip.
But i dont have DVI out on the laptop so for a better comaprison ill use my stationary with a leadtek A6600GT (with the "video enhancement" turned on).

Will be interesting to see if there is a big difference there.
Will also borrow a DVD player with HDMI from a friend and compare it thoroughly with fil material and calibrate one set for each input.


Regards
Boogieman

Boogieman I was only doing this test to show the difference between 1:1 mapping and Non 1:1 mapping. I didn't use my different user modes for HDMI. Yes when I use HDMI I have my user 3 preset to have the proper calibration for HDMI, but I didn't use it everytime I switched the Inputs. I left everything on cinema! no tweaks for both settings vga, or HDMI.

But thanks for commenting!

For anyone interested I purchased a 77mm ND filter to use with my HS51/SS combo. I reversed the filter threaded side out so the inside lip of the filter rests on top of the pj lip. Works great for me since the SS packs a punch. It's easy for me to reach up to put on or take off depending on what material I am watching.

Has anyone used their Sony HS51 with a real crappy DVD player (read PS2)? I am finally getting some of my stuff hooked up properly and started playing a couple DVD clips on the unit last night. I noticed some flickering in solid patterns. Say, a sky, for instance, had horizontal lines in it that were getting brighter and darker. I am assuming it is the crap DVD player but just thought I'd ping this thread and see if anyone has noticed that. I don't plan to use the PS2 as a long term player... just something I had on hand and it got me worried. I guess I am just looking to alleviate some concern here.

http://reaper.us/assets/images/db_images/db_Screen-00012.jpg

reap

Greetings,

Reap, I think you can relax. I am sure that what you are seeing is surely connected to the PS2's output and not the fault of the projector. I just purchased a Sony DVP-CX995V megachanger. I have a Denon 3910 which is my primary player. I bought this to use for my non reference discs, which will free up some rack space. It has an HDMI output and I am curious to see the pairing results with the HS51.


Once you add a better quality player to the mix you should be fine.


Regards,

OK. You're the 2nd guy to tell me the same. I am starting to get that warm fuzzy now :)...

reap

Sometime ago, there were concerns about the firmware update... is it worthwhile?
Does that mess up anything else?

oh my I havent been to this thread for about 7 months or so and sowk and byte are still debating the better input on the hs51 the vga or hdmi. poetatoe patatoe man lets just call it off alright? you guys are funny man jeff

For anyone interested I purchased a 77mm ND filter to use with my HS51/SS combo. I reversed the filter threaded side out so the inside lip of the filter rests on top of the pj lip. Works great for me since the SS packs a punch. It's easy for me to reach up to put on or take off depending on what material I am watching.


what does this filter do an for how much can i get it?


also, i was looking about your comments about the hs52/dvd combo, would the bravo 3 by dinc. be a good pair up for the combo. I mena, i can live with "ALITTLE " noise, but not to any extreme as to bars and other crap on the screen.

if th bravo 3 isnt a good choice, what is a good dvd player for the cabmo that can also play written cd's and what not? (what about dvd-hd) for under 370~USD?

soooory double post

what does this filter do an for how much can i get it?


also, i was looking about your comments about the hs52/dvd combo, would the bravo 3 by dinc. be a good pair up for the combo. I mena, i can live with "ALITTLE " noise, but not to any extreme as to bars and other crap on the screen.

if th bravo 3 isnt a good choice, what is a good dvd player for the cabmo that can also play written cd's and what not? (what about dvd-hd) for under 370~USD?

I am using the ND2 filter for watching dvd's to reduce light output from the pj in half. I remove the filter for sports and cable tv(HD etc.) or if I have the lights on. So far I like the results.

If you don't have a light controlled room or a high gain screen then you probably are not a candidate for such a filter.

Not sure what your other questions are but if you are asking about a decent dvd player recommendation for the HS51 then I'd say the s77 or s97 is pretty good. I haven't see the Oppo but assume it would also be a good choice.

I am currently using the HS51 and SP1000 in my setup and will add a HD+ to the mix once I get it back from DVDO that is fixing a problem I had as a result of sending it to JVB for the HD+ upgrade.

I played some Jade Empire on the unit through the Xbox and so no flickering. Worries alleviated. Phew!

While watching my HS51 with my computer via VGA, I am seeing a slight change in color. It almost looks like the IRIS is changing. I have tried changing the IRIS to auto, on, off. I have also tried some other settings on and off with no luck. I think it is only happening while watching the computer. But it could be happening on HDMI and other but I can't notice it. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Matt

I finally god my HS20 replaced with HS51. Tell you what! I love this projector! Black level are just perfect, it gives you a DLP projector feeling. So far I haven't had a chance to really play with it and calibrate it. I'm planning to get a new DVD player now. I'm kind of shooting for Denon 3910 but I also wanted to ask you guys what other DVD players can be a good match for my HS51? I would like to stay in the $1000 budget or less.

I finally god my HS20 replaced with HS51. Tell you what! I love this projector! Black level are just perfect, it gives you a DLP projector feeling. So far I haven't had a chance to really play with it and calibrate it. I'm planning to get a new DVD player now. I'm kind of shooting for Denon 3910 but I also wanted to ask you guys what other DVD players can be a good match for my HS51? I would like to stay in the $1000 budget or less.

Both the Denon 3910 and Pioneer 59avi are great players in your price range. I bought the 3910, but I was shopping for a good deal on either player.

The 2910 was also a good match with the HS-51, although thr 3910 is a touch nicer in picture quality, and a few notches better in audio.

The HS-51 also looked very good with a 480p signal from a Panasonic XP-30, which I was using before the 3910.

Good luck with your new projector.

Both the Denon 3910 and Pioneer 59avi are great players in your price range. I bought the 3910, but I was shopping for a good deal on either player.

The 2910 was also a good match with the HS-51, although thr 3910 is a touch nicer in picture quality, and a few notches better in audio.

The HS-51 also looked very good with a 480p signal from a Panasonic XP-30, which I was using before the 3910.

Good luck with your new projector.

Looks like 3910 is my best option the only thing is i read some discussions about getting refurbished units. That many of them have issues...

Looks like 3910 is my best option the only thing is i read some discussions about getting refurbished units. That many of them have issues...


I have owned a couple of refurbished Pioneer LD players, and never had a problem.

Unless you are buying a brand new 3910, it's a toss up between a refurb with a 90 day warranty, or a used model reported to be in perfect condition but with possibly no warranty.

The unit I bought used, was from Crutchfield and the original owner has offered to help me down the road should I have a problem.

You might get up to speed on the current 3910 software updates, to make sure they are either installed, or you are ready to do the install yourself.

I have owned a couple of refurbished Pioneer LD players, and never had a problem.

Unless you are buying a brand new 3910, it's a toss up between a refurb with a 90 day warranty, or a used model reported to be in perfect condition but with possibly no warranty.

The unit I bought used, was from Crutchfield and the original owner has offered to help me down the road should I have a problem.

You might get up to speed on the current 3910 software updates, to make sure they are either installed, or you are ready to do the install yourself.

What do you mean by 90 day warranty? As far as I know refubrished units have the same warranty as the new one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is my first post so hope it works.....

I have been reading this thread for several months and have the same question gireesh posted yesterday. Is the firmware update recommended?

I decided to send my unit in a few weeks ago and filled my info in on the Sony site on the 7th. After more than two weeks I have yet to hear from Sony. So I spent two hours on the phone this afternoon being bounced from one person to another before I could get a work order number.

I am now having concerns about sending it in after dealing one on one with Sony...

Are the benefits worth the hassle?

What do you mean by 90 day warranty? As far as I know refubrished units have the same warranty as the new one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
All Denon refurbs/b-stocks, only have a 90 day factory Denon warranty. And anybody that is offering more than a 90 day warranty on them, is doing so with something other than a Denon factory warranty.


http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/WebWarrHOME-B-STOCK-NoNS-40R6.PDF

I just wanted to report that I recently watched the DRIVEN DVD on this VPL-HS51 with a 100' Firehawk lexus electroscreen (through my DVDO HD+ scaler).

Man, this was one of the greatest DVD transfers I have ever seen!

Loving this PJ!
Fabian.

I'm planning to use Monster HDMI400 6m cable for my HS51 I was curious if I use Monster M1000DAV 6m also would I notice a difference in pq? As far as I understand 6m is not that much for HDMI so I should not have any signal loss with Monster HDMI400 but I still wanted to advise with you guys. If anyone know a better cable for a reasonable price please let me know.

This is my first post so hope it works.....

I have been reading this thread for several months and have the same question gireesh posted yesterday. Is the firmware update recommended?

I decided to send my unit in a few weeks ago and filled my info in on the Sony site on the 7th. After more than two weeks I have yet to hear from Sony. So I spent two hours on the phone this afternoon being bounced from one person to another before I could get a work order number.

I am now having concerns about sending it in after dealing one on one with Sony...

Are the benefits worth the hassle?

Where did you send your unit? Was is Loredo? If so I have a direct number and can hook you up with a nice guy that works there.

All Denon refurbs/b-stocks, only have a 90 day factory Denon warranty. And anybody that is offering more than a 90 day warranty on them, is doing so with something other than a Denon factory warranty.


http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/WebWarrHOME-B-STOCK-NoNS-40R6.PDF

So I guess saving $500 in 3910 by getting a b-stock one isn't really a good deal... If it breaks it means you are in the deep whole...

Where did you send your unit? Was is Loredo? If so I have a direct number and can hook you up with a nice guy that works there.

Yes, they are having me send it to Laredo. I would greatly appreciate a number there incase something comes up.

So I take it you sent your unit for the upgrade. Was it worth it or would you rather have it in the original state?

Yes, they are having me send it to Laredo. I would greatly appreciate a number there incase something comes up.

So I take it you sent your unit for the upgrade. Was it worth it or would you rather have it in the original state?


The number is (866) 357-6230.
Yes I got a new HS51 it was definitely worth it!