I'll decide which one to buy after I see both with my own eyes. I would never buy any display device without seeing it first.

The HS-51 has VGA inputs also, and the change in resolution from the HS-20 should take away most of the odd problems the HS-20 had in regards to computers. (It will also take away the bonus the HS-20 had in regards to XGA compatibility.).

Regards,
Tore K.

Originally posted by Joe Schwartz
I'll decide which one to buy after I see both with my own eyes. I would never buy any display device without seeing it first.
Is there a requirement to see both together, and do they have to be calibrated?

I'm in Atlanta and I'd be surprised if I could find a local dealer carrying just one (HS51) by 2005. May the Schwartz be with you on this quest.

I agree on waiting, if I'm going to upgrade from my HS10, I want to hear more reviews and see how the HTPC compatibility works. They both sound tempting, though.... ;)

Are there current compatiability issues with the HS20/51 I need to be aware of? LOL

I am not sure whether I have overlooked the lumens rating on the Sony wensite, but I have heard 800 Ansi lumens ( projectors.com) and `1500 Ansi lumens (posts). Which number is correct? Can we expect an improvement over the HS20?
I hope this baby is coming out soon, ready to jump the boat for my first PJ. I spoke to one dealer, who expects his first shipment in November.

greetings

Mike

I am going to get the hs51 for the same reason some won't--the experience with an hs10. In my case I have near 6000 hours on my hs10 and have had zero problems. Seems a good enough reason for me to get the hs51.

As for seeing pjs before buying--well I bought my hs10 sight unseen and I still love it. Unless you know the conditions when viewing a pj it doesn't do much good in my opinion. If I based my opinion of a 12k by the one at frys I would think its terrible.

Reading the reviews and seeing the measurements provided by the people on this forum seems to provide much more info than I could get seeing a pj in some showroom with the pj set up in some unknown way...

I agree. My Fry's has the recessed lights on and feeding all of the projectors Composite video. The reason? Because, the idiot store manager was more concerned with selling the audio receiver and DVD player he placed at the front of the room than selling any of the projectors.

mikeguava,
The 800 lumens is in low lamp and auto iris on. High lamp is 1200 lumens.
Al

So, with a $4K sticker price, when is this thread going to move fora? ;)

Later,
Bill

I believe the MSRP is $3499, so this is the perfect forum.




Stew

Originally posted by Stew4msu
I believe the MSRP is $3499, so this is the perfect forum.

Doh! You're right. A particular on-line vendor I was looking at was just, well, misinformed. Don't want to think anything nefarious now...

Later,
Bill

Bill, you were not the only one being misinformed. I garnered the MRSP off of Projector Central's website where they listed it at $3799.99, but according to the Sony Style website (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=VPLHS51&DCMP=CJ_DF&HQS=TV_VPLHS51) its $3499.99 as what they retail it for. Maybe Sony adjusted the price recently?

BTW, anyone know if you can purchase the Sony extended warranty is you bought the projector from somewhere else and not the Sony Stle outlet?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Are there current compatiability issues with the HS20/51 I need to be aware of? LOL

Well, obviously I can't speak to the HS51. ;) But the HS10/20 both have the limitation that you can only do 1:1 pixel mapping using native resolution (1368x768) @ 56 Hz, and even then you're not using the whole panel, which is actually 1388x788. One would think since Sony has changed to a native 720p panel, that this would no longer be a problem. There are some other minor problems that the older models have, I know the Panny 300/500 models had their problems as well. I just want to wait and know what I'm getting into before considering any upgrade.

JDLIVE, is the 1:1 mapping condition on the HS1-/20 on analog, digital, or both transports?

How are people making their minds up between the two? I am a 4 year owner of a sony 10ht without any VB issues. I refuse to upgrade to a projector with VB problems, even if it is better on other respects. Sounds like the ae700 might still have a small amount of VB, so I probablly will stick with sony...

I wonder someday if I'll be able to drop an HS51 "in-place" where 4 mo. old HS20 is positioned? Do you suppose the HS51 image offset and zoom range is similar enough? For me, offset will be the big one; I do have some play up/down and front/back, but not a lot. Just dreaming anyway since the HS20 will need to be around for a long time.
///d@

Originally posted by Dithermaster
I wonder someday if I'll be able to drop an HS51 "in-place" where 4 mo. old HS20 is positioned? Do you suppose the HS51 image offset and zoom range is similar enough? For me, offset will be the big one; I do have some play up/down and front/back, but not a lot. Just dreaming anyway since the HS20 will need to be around for a long time.
///d@


It depends upon where your HS20 is in relation to your zoom. I know that the image offset wouldn't be a problem, but the distance might. For example, you can have a 126" image on the HS20 at 18', but the HS51 can be a maximum of 17.5' for this same image. It has a shorter throw, but better zoom capabilities.

I was going to give you a better specific example, but I just noticed that projectorcentral no longer has the throw ratio's for the HS51 on their site. I wonder why?




Stew

Originally posted by TheFerret
JDLIVE, is the 1:1 mapping condition on the HS1-/20 on analog, digital, or both transports?

It's using DVI-D. That's the only connection that you can get 1:1 mapping.

What about this iris thingy pushing the HS51 up to 6000:1 in contrast?

If the iris is only capable of adjusting the picture on a frame by frame basis rather than a pixel by pixel basis then isn't this lying alot as the contrast of 6000:1 could never be ashieved within a single frame?
I mean if so the great differences in contrast can not be produced in for instance a frame containing a sprakling surface with alot of tiny details having either very strong or very weak light emittence.
And what about a scene containing alot of very brightly lit sections except for a few spots containing very dim light (but still containing detail that should be displayed and vissable)? Will the dark spots lose their detail and drown in bad blacklevels due to the frame beeing largely bright forcing the iris to open up?
My point is that the contrast could never be greater than 1200:1 within a single frame (assuming the panels are 1200:1 with an iris working at 5X reduction).
In such instances wouldn't a projector with contrast of 2000:1 directly on the panels and no iris (i.e. a "pure" 2000:1 contrast projector) produce the more realistic and sparkling image?

How is it on DLPs? Don't they often have a contrast of say 2000:1 directly on the panels? And isn't this the reason DLPs often seem to produce a more sparkling image within any given single frame than LCD?

Just a thought.

But if what I've said above is correct then this 6000:1 contrast of the HS51 seems somewhat irrelevant and missleading.

There two conventions for measuring contrast: Full On/Off and ANSI. Since the iris is modulating the lamp, it effects brightness to all pixels. Thus, the dynamic iris works against Full On/Off contrast and not ANSI contrast.

I think what you are thinking about is ANSI contrast.

You are correct but this has been discussed back and forth 100 times already. However in a mostly dark scene dlp might have only 200 steps to paint the picture but the hs51 could have more than 1000. The whole point of this solution is to makethe best possible use of what cr is available in the panels.
Yes sometimes a compromise has to be made and some picture information will be lost. Still you can not keep track of every pixel can you?

Sigh, read the thread before posting stuff like that. The contrast thing has been discussed ad nauseum.

Well, my interest is not exclusively HT, here. Buying a digital projector with a digital transport would draw my attention in that I'd also want to use it from time to time as a computer display for something like photography post-processing, and some other things (PC gaming). I would definitely be interested in controlled 1:1 mapping.

Do you guys know that the DVI input has been eliminated and only the HDMI is available as a digital input? I just read the specs on Sony style and have not read all 28 pages here. Plus, the panels are now 1280x720.

Mike, I think that is pretty much par for the course these days. HDMI can be seen as the next evolutionary step beyond DVI. There are DVI-to-HDMT capbles and adapters available. While I like the small form-factor of HDMI, it would have been nice for them to replace the one DVI input with a pair of HDMI inputs. I guess they are figuring everyone will have either one digital source or using a device that switches digital sources.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Mike, I think that is pretty much par for the course these days. HDMI can be seen as the next evolutionary step beyond DVI. There are DVI-to-HDMT cables and adapters available. While I like the small form-factor of HDMI, it would have been nice for them to replace the one DVI input with a pair of HDMI inputs. I guess they are figuring everyone will have either one digital source or using a device that switches digital sources. Understand , but the point being , now you will be back to the switcher if you want to use two digital inputs. I use the DVI for HDTV cable and the HDMI for DVD on my HS20. These projectors should make two digital inputs available, the HS20 did.

Originally posted by Stew4msu
It depends upon where your HS20 is in relation to your zoom. I know that the image offset wouldn't be a problem, but the distance might. For example, you can have a 126" image on the HS20 at 18', but the HS51 can be a maximum of 17.5' for this same image. It has a shorter throw, but better zoom capabilities.


I should have included that. I'm at full zoom on the HS20. About 13.4" onto a 106" screen. I saw the calc on projector central, although the zoom range seemed very large, perhaps it was wrong.

I was more concerned about the offset. I'm surprised projectorcentral doesn't include those calcs too, since they vary so much between different projectors.

///d@

Originally posted by Mike191
Understand , but the point being , now you will be back to the switcher if you want to use two digital inputs. I use the DVI for HDTV cable and the HDMI for DVD on my HS20. These projectors should make two digital inputs available, the HS20 did. I completely agree...projector central recommends keeping your DVI/HDMI connections direct between sources and displays until a high baseline quality of switchers and receivers using these connection types become common. I've always used my HS20's digital inputs for HDTV and DVDs and it's a nice convenience that will hopefully become standard in the near future...minimum of two HDMIs.

Originally posted by Dithermaster
I was more concerned about the offset. I'm surprised projectorcentral doesn't include those calcs too, since they vary so much between different projectors.

Re-read the part about the lens shift.

I think Sony is sacrificing picture quality and customer convenience for specifications which appear to compete with the DLP technology. Typical but unfortunate. The HS51 will fall from favor until next year when the HS65 includes two digital inputs.

just wondering how many other pjs out there around this price point include 2 digital connections? is sony offering LESS or simply the SAME as their competition?

Originally posted by Fidelity
just wondering how many other pjs out there around this price point include 2 digital connections? is sony offering LESS or simply the SAME as their competition? But why go backward?

Patients is a virtue. If you are willing to wait another calendar year and not buy an external DVI switcher then obviously the this kind of solution is considered more of a headache (PITA) than the lower video quality you are getting in your current display setup. Gefen current makes and list a two-port HDMI switcher for $249.

I'm just ordering components for a HTPC and plan to order an HS51 display. I've read about EDID issues with various video cards/displays. Any idea where I can confirm the EDID data for the HS51?

Thanks,

Chuck

Originally posted by Mike191
But why go backward?

to keep the price point at $3499 MSRP.

Chuck, have you no luck with working around any EDID issue using Powerstrip? I am only now investigating the EDID aspect of digital projection.

I don't have any experience with the projector or the EDID issue at present. I've read that there are issues with certain video cards (mostly nVidia) that prevent the card from displaying the native resolution of the display. There's an expectation that nVidia will address this in future driver updates, but no guarantee. Without knowing for sure whether there is an issue with my selected components (nVidia 6800 video card and Sony HS51 projector), the only way I've read to give high confidence is to purchase a dual DVI video card where one of the DVI ports allows custom video settings from PowerStrip. That's the approach I'm taking unless I can confirm a single DVI video card will work with the HS51.

I'm expect that the lack of experience, period, with the HS51 will make it difficult, if not impossible to get a response to this question, but I've been pleasantly surprised in the answers available on this forum.

Chuck

does anyone have an idea about when these will start shipping? i know that the sony site says on or about 31st of Oct, but i was hoping someone else has heard something.

eric

J.P. Grumberg, founder of hifissimo.fr, has tested one of the first units to arrive in Europe (note: it's going to be HS50 there). His first conclusions:

-6,000:1 CR is AWOL
-It's so silent you'd think you never switched it on
-No vertical banding, no convergence problems
-It's a great PJ!

Grubert,
Is "AWOL" Absent with out leave?
Or is there another meaning to this acronym.
Al

Grubert,

Did he post a full review? Would it be possible to post a translation here?

reaper

the sony(make no mistake, this is really a sony issue, not an nvidia issue, nvidia is just following standards)EDID 'issue' can be summed up thusly:

1. Sony didn't put an accurate and/or complete EDID in either the HS10 or HS20 for most/all revisions.

2. Most/all nvidia cards/drivers strictly enforce display modes that are listed in the display device's EDID. I've read in at least one spot that this might be to ease/insure WHQL certification.

Has anybody been able to play with a HS51 to determine if Sony is continuing to miss the boat on this issue?

I gave up on it and took the easy way out, made an htpc specifically for the projector and put an ATI x800pro in there, using powerstrip for the custom resolutions. Ends up being a more flexible(albeit far more expensive solution) than using just one computer for all of of my displays/work/play.

Hmm, I see they're just offering HDMI now, and only one of them. Bleh.

Will the HS51 have a VGA input? The specifications and the pictures on the sony style site are not clear to me.

Grubert - That website appears to only be a dealer. Is there some link to a review? Has Messr. Grumberg posted comments elsewhere? Otherwise, I think this may violate the "no posting of dealers" rule...

Later,
Bill

AWOL CR?

Originally posted by Grubert
-6,000:1 CR is AWOL For those of us who do not use American as native language, is this good or bad (or what does it mean)?

AWOL (unless there is another explanation for the acronym) is Absent Without Leave, and it is a military term meaning that a person was not present who was supposed to be. Grubert's comment would typically be interpreted as the 6000:1 contrast ratio was not able to be observed during testing.

I personally am curious as to what the person DID get for CR. However, he seems to be selling the projector, and it may be commercially disadvantageous to actually indicate what his own measurements show.

Later,
Bill

Originally posted by Mike Versteeg
For those of us who do not use American as native language, is this good or bad (or what does it mean)?

Hey, English is not my native language either. I'm a Spaniard living in the French-speaking part of a country where they speak German that sounds like Dutch. :D

Ursa got it right.

Anyway, Mr Grumberg (not a relative of mine) said, in a humorous tone that probably got lost in translation, that there's no way in hell this projector gives 6000:1 contrast. In fact, he's not sure yet if he likes this over the Yamaha LPX510.

Next: testing with a Denon 3910.

FWIW, he's giving his views on the French forum www.homecinema-fr.com

We could ask what has been watched on this hs50. If it was only bright material then I am not surprised it is "just" as good as the great Yamaha. However if he still thinks the Yamaha is equal to Sony in displaying deep space scenes then there is disappointment.

My French is too rusty, but the way I read it, it seems that there is some disagreement with his measurements and his advertising of the stated specs (gotta love European consumer laws! :D).

On a more topical note, unless you have reallly good instrumentation that you know how to use, it will be difficult to actually measure the CR of this thing consistently (if it approaches spec). Perhaps he should look into Guy Kuo's deal on an OpticOne...

Later,
Bill

We could ask what has been watched on this hs50. If it was only bright material then I am not surprised it is "just" as good as the great Yamaha. However if he still thinks the Yamaha is equal to Sony in displaying deep space scenes then there is disappointment.

He not exactly says that. He thinks that Sony might be better than Yamaha but he wants to be sure by testing it again with the Denon 3910 this week.

October 21 release in Australia by the looks...cant wait to check one out!

Okay, everyone can now pick their hearts up off the floor and re-assemble them.

Good morning.
I had a HS50 for testing twice. The first time, unfortunately, I did not have a good player to feed it, only a Pioneer DV668 (HDMi but not 720p). I did not want to make any definitive conclusion based on that, but the contrast ratio did not seem to reach the claimed 6000:1! For this, I see a few explanation.
1- the player did not help (I doubt, because the 720p should not affect the contrast ratio much)
2- the sample I received was not a production model, but Sony wanted my opinion anyway. Maybe the projector that is going to be shipped to customers will go further in term of black details.
Anyway. What I saw was a very nice picture, but I would need to see it with a DVD3910 Denon to push it into to its limits.
So Sony sent it again for testing.
Unfortunately, that time it had a flaw. I suspect it got bumped or something like that. So Again I could test drive this automatic iris effect.

Bottom line: when I said that I don't know how it compares to the Yamaha LPX510, its more because I was not happy with my test condition and I did not want to make a conclusion, than with the actual image quality.

Jean Patrick Grumberg,
Hifissimo

Originally posted by reaper
Grubert,

Did he post a full review? Would it be possible to post a translation here?

reaper

No, I did not post a full review. I explain below why.

Welcome to the board, Jean Patrick.

Do you expect to get yet another sample to test or are you awaiting production units now? Have you had a chance to see the Panasonic AE700? If so, any thoughts on how it compares?

reaper

Originally posted by reaper
Welcome to the board, Jean Patrick.

Do you expect to get yet another sample to test or are you awaiting production units now? Have you had a chance to see the Panasonic AE700? If so, any thoughts on how it compares?

reaper

Hi reaper. I am expecting another sample soon. Sony is very disapointed that the unit did not work properly, and he his triyng its best to get me another sample. I did not see the PTAE700 but I saw the Sanyo PLVZ3 a month ago. And it does not compare to the Sony, far from it!

I take your comment to mean that the HS50/51 is far superior to the Z3.
I don't know how the Z3 compares to the AE700, personally, but the recent spec releases are starting to sound much more similar.

Can you expand on the reasons you find the HS50 superior to the Z3?

Loving the feedback... thanks for the information...

reap

I would think (hope) that at this stage test-samples would be moot as production is expected already. Is this not the case? Also, since you got a look a month ago at the Z3, but what was so different between it and the Sony? Seems that most are without info on the Z3.

Now you really are getting tough on my English. Its already not always easy to translate all my findings in words, but in english words! And beside, it's 6PM in Paris, I don't have my notes with me here at home.

So as far as I can remember, when I saw the Z3, my first thought was: they fixed the Z2 and produced the Z3, but VB is still here. Contrast ratio, sharpness did not dramatically improve.
When I had a chance to play with the HS50, on the other hand, I said to myself: this is NOT a corrected version of the HS20 (I am the dealer who had Sony to pull it out of the market because of alignment problems), this is a new, higher end machine in term of deepness, sharpness, details in the dark areas. To me the HS20 colors always where a good surprise, and the HS50 is no different: warm, naturel, soft and deep.

JPG - Hifissimo,
Do you think it is worth upgrading from the HS20 to the HS50,51?
Thanks
Al

Originally posted by BOBCAT
JPG - Hifissimo,
Do you think it is worth upgrading from the HS20 to the HS50,51?
Thanks
Al

Yes, definitely. And don't get me wrong: I don't sell overseas and my French customers barely read English!
But get a good player behind it. And for me, the very good player, if you read my test (somebody translated it in English and posted it on AVS), is the Denon DVD3910.

JPG - Hifissimo,
Forgot to ask, did Sony improve the remote control over the HS20. Does it have direct access to the inputs?
Thanks again
Al

Originally posted by BOBCAT
JPG - Hifissimo,
Forgot to ask, did Sony improve the remote control over the HS20. Does it have direct access to the inputs?
Thanks again
Al

This I barely remember because during the last test I pressed input by mistake, but I cannot remember if it was a general input or a direct access. But I could ask my webmaster, He shoot a lot of pictures.

Now regarding improvement, I cannot recall myself admiring the layout of the remote!

JPG - Hifissimo,
Ok, fine.
I am #3 on a pre-order list here, so I hope I will have one by the end of the month. It will replace my HS20.
Al

Jean Patrick,


Thanks very much for your input so far. Looking forward to hearing more.



Stew

JPG - Hifissimo,
Thank you for information!

One question - how does new Sony HS51 compare against Hitachi TX100 (if you seen it in action)?

Jean Patrick,
Merci beaucoup de votre travails! Do you have access to a PC in your test environment? Many, many people wiould be very grateful (including Sony... ;) ), if you would connect a computer to the Sony's HDMI port via a DVI->HDMI adapter, and tested whether the computer could produce 720p without any problems.

Later,
Bill

Good question, Bill. Inquiring geeks wanna know.

JPG - Hifissimo: welcome to the site and thanks for the info. If you have any problems writing in English just write in French and I will translate.

Originally posted by Kroot
JPG - Hifissimo,
Thank you for information!

One question - how does new Sony HS51 compare against Hitachi TX100 (if you seen it in action)?

That's an unfair question. I am probably the only guy in France who did not find the TX100 astonishingly extraordinary superbly superior (to avoid to be flamed, I avoided expressing this opinion here in France). I only found the TX100 to be a better machine than the Z2 and than the PTAE500.

How does the TX100 compare to the HS50?
Even the last HS20s that I had a chance to use where better for me than the TX100. The HS50 is no competitor to the TX100, it just is a much higher quality machine. For me, the HS50 is fighting with the Nec HT1100 and the LPX510. The TX100 is in the lower category: the sharpness of the HS50 by itself, right out of the box, was amazing. The background details, the depth of the blacks where no comparison with the TX100.

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
[B]Good morning.
I had a HS50 for testing twice. The first time, unfortunately, I did not have a good player to feed it, only a Pioneer DV668 (HDMi but not 720p). I did not want to make any definitive conclusion based on that, but the contrast ratio did not seem to reach the claimed 6000:1!
Did you measure it?

Wouldn't that be the best way to verify it?

Originally posted by Ursa
Jean Patrick,
Merci beaucoup de votre travails! Do you have access to a PC in your test environment? Many, many people wiould be very grateful (including Sony... ;) ), if you would connect a computer to the Sony's HDMI port via a DVI->HDMI adapter, and tested whether the computer could produce 720p without any problems.

Later,
Bill

Well, I had in mind to connect it to the DVD3910 to produce 720p.

Originally posted by AnthonyP
JPG - Hifissimo: welcome to the site and thanks for the info. If you have any problems writing in English just write in French and I will translate.

Thanks for your help. Its not the English I have the worst problems with (I leaved in Los Angeles, my wife is not French and we speak English at home), its time. I you could help me buying some...

Originally posted by Stereodude
Did you measure it?

Wouldn't that be the best way to verify it?

Sorry, I did not measure it. I never take any measures, its just not the type of testing I am interested in. Like amplifiers. I would never think of checking if an amplifier is really delivering the promised 120W. I don't care! What I care is it sound quality. Same thing for the projectors. A lot of machines with a high contrast ratio of 2 ou 3000:1 merely deliver 4 ou 500:1 in the real world and after calibrating.

There is a lot of people out here that are going to measure the real contrast. Soon enough. And yes, the best way to know if it delivers the claimed 6000:1 is to measure it, you are absolutely right.
I am just not very interested. In other words, the 6000:1 contrast ratio is telling me: look, we achieved the best contrast ratio, check it out. My interest is to see if the HS50 goes further than the best I've seen or not.

And by the way, the Sony guy told me, when he mentionned the 6000:1: its marketing!

JPG - Hifissimo,

Do you remember how much range the lens shift feature had? Could the projected image be above or below the lens? By how much?

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
Sorry, I did not measure it. I never take any measures, its just not the type of testing I am interested in. Like amplifiers. I would never think of checking if an amplifier is really delivering the promised 120W. I don't care! What I care is it sound quality. Same thing for the projectors. A lot of machines with a high contrast ratio of 2 ou 3000:1 merely deliver 4 ou 500:1 in the real world and after calibrating.

There is a lot of people out here that are going to measure the real contrast. Soon enough. And yes, the best way to know if it delivers the claimed 6000:1 is to measure it, you are absolutely right.
I am just not very interested. In other words, the 6000:1 contrast ratio is telling me: look, we achieved the best contrast ratio, check it out. My interest is to see if the HS50 goes further than the best I've seen or not.

And by the way, the Sony guy told me, when he mentionned the 6000:1: its marketing!
So, you don't feel you should measure the contrast, but you want to accuse Sony of lying about it, and then you say the measurement doesn't matter.

:confused:

Yes I remember. It has a lot of range.
You can shift vertically from more than half a screen height toward the floor and half a screen toward the ceiling, and on the side it's even more than a screen on each direction. Add to that than the manual zoom has a big range and you can place the HS50 almost everywhere in a room.

The projector was at about 1.20m from the floor (sorry, you'll have to translate that into inches), the screen was 2.20m 16/9 at 5 meters from the projector. I tilted down the image, and it lit the carpet!

Originally posted by Stereodude
So, you don't feel you should measure the contrast, but you want to accuse Sony of lying about it, and then you say the measurement doesn't matter.

:confused:

You almost got it right. If you got it perfectly right, you would not be confused. So I am going to do my best to put it differently.

1- it's not that I don't feel I should measure, it's that I am not interested in measuring. If it has 5000 or 4000 or 2000, I don't care. What I care is: does it has a better contrast than what I know, does it has a great picture.

2- I don't want to accuse Sony of lying, and I am not accusing Sony of lying because I don't know any brand name that say the truth about contrast ratio and it does not bother me much. Why? Because in my opinion Home Theater projectors is a new field, and it need to mature a bit more before we reach a common measurment standard. Each brand name measure the lumens and the contrast ratio with it own standard, and we don't even know clearly what their way of measuring is. Do they do it like car manufacturers who use 35KG drivers wearing a light bath suit to achieve the best MPG?! I don't know, and you don't know.

3- And since you cannot say that Sony's way of measuring compares to Sharp's or Optoma's, and since every review I read so far get a much smaller number than any claimed ratio, and since nobody yet told me what contrast ratio difference the eye can easily perceive, the numbers don't really mean much for me. What I am interested in is a very beautifull image.

Does the HS50 have a very beautifull image. Yes.
Does the HS50 can compete with the DLP in the $3/5000 range. Yes.
Does the HS50 have a deep an crisp image, excellent black details and superb colors. Yes.
Does the HS50 reaches 6000:1 contrast ratio? I don't think so.

JPG...ah, but does the HS50 better DLPs in the price range or merely compete with them? (I'm thinking the Benq 8700).

Bob

Originally posted by threed123
JPG...ah, but does the HS50 better DLPs in the price range or merely compete with them? (I'm thinking the Benq 8700).

Bob

No, it's not better than the DLP's in that price range. I see it as a serious and honorable alternative for people who are too sensitive to DLPs rainbows, and not as a stepdown alternative. But if, like me, you have no problem with rainbows, stick to DLP. The same day I work on the second HS50, I had to calibrate a XVZ10000 and I used the same movies. There was no quality comparison, the Sharp is going much further in term of smoothness and sharpness than the Sony.

JPG,

I'm very impressed with your answer to Stereodude, I was afraid you would take offense. as many would, but you answered with great clarity and aplomb.

"There was no quality comparison, the Sharp is going much further in term of smoothness and sharpness than the Sony."

How about the contrast? A forum member here, Ran, saw the HS51 and is considering replacing his Sharp 12000 with it. He thought the contrast was comparable but liked the brightness and vividness of the Sony more.

Thanks

Originally posted by noah katz
JPG,

I'm very impressed with your answer to Stereodude, I was afraid you would take offense. as many would, but you answered with great clarity and aplomb.


If I come here to avs it takes me an effort. I might as well go the last mile and do the extra effort not to take it personnaly. There is always something behind an agression. Now I am used to it. I have been around on the French forums for almost a decade!

How about the contrast? A forum member here, Ran, saw the HS51 and is considering replacing his Sharp 12000 with it. He thought the contrast was comparable but liked the brightness and vividness of the Sony more.

Thanks

The contrast, on the last machine I had was not seriously studyable because of the flaws. Now regarding Ran, what are its reasons? Rainbows? What player his he using?
Now he must have seen a sample in a much better state than the ones I had a chance to play with, because in no way the contrast ratio was better than a XVZ12000 on the DVD3910.

JPG, thanks for all your input, very very valuable. Keep it coming. Any dead pixels in the units you've seen so far?

Originally posted by nilsp
JPG, thanks for all your input, very very valuable. Keep it coming. Any dead pixels in the units you've seen so far?

No. No dead pixel. But I never had to complain much about dead pixels with Sony. Maybe one or two machines out of 150. The worst in this department is Toshiba and Sanyo.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the Sony HS51 compares to the Panasonic AE700.......

Indeed. We're all waiting for the first shootout between the two. When? Who?

I get the feeling it will not be until next month before we see inventory out there and in the hands before a side-by-side comparison is afforded. Patience isn't something AVSers are known for.

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
If I come here to avs it takes me an effort. I might as well go the last mile and do the extra effort not to take it personnaly. There is always something behind an agression. Now I am used to it. I have been around on the French forums for almost a decade!
Aggression? :confused:

I'm not being aggressive, I'm trying to understand your comments. You say that contrast ratio doesn't matter, but then still say you don't think it meets the spec. Why even mention the spec if it doesn't matter?

:confused:

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
3- And since you cannot say that Sony's way of measuring compares to Sharp's or Optoma's, and since every review I read so far get a much smaller number than any claimed ratio, and since nobody yet told me what contrast ratio difference the eye can easily perceive, the numbers don't really mean much for me. What I am interested in is a very beautifull image.
I guess I'm still a little confused...

To measure the on/off contrast ratio (dynamic range) you feed the projector a 100IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement A, you feed the projector a 0 IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement B. You divide B by A and get the full on / full off contrast ratio (dynamic range).

Perhaps you can clarify what Sharp, Sony and Optima are doing and how they differ from each other if my above mentioned method isn't correct.

JPG - Hifissimo: if I remember correctly Ran saw the Sony at CEDIA and said that blacks where close to his Sharp and he liked the price difference and the brighter image. So he was thinking of going with the Sony

To measure the on/off contrast ratio (dynamic range) you feed the projector a 100IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement A, you feed the projector a 0 IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement B.

We all know what to use from the projector point of view, but
1) do you take several inputs from each image or just one
2) where on the image do you test
3) how do you value all the numbers you get
4) where do you take the measurements (at the lens, screen or somewhere in between)
5) how precise is the lower level of the device?
6) room conditions (how much light in the room when the projector is off? what colour are the walls....)
7) projector setup (is it optimized for best image or highest contrast....)
.............

all of these play a big difference in what you will get as a final outcome.


So I agree with JPG - Hifissimo and a CR number means nothing, spec or measured by an individual, and that not believing in CR numbers does not mean that you don't believe that good CR is important

I enjoy hearing various perspectives on the Sony HS-51. I use all input to help me make a decision -- including observations from those that have seen it. I am now waiting for "professional" evaluations.

I also use personal experience which, it appears, conflicts with others. I have a very "tweaked" and filtered Sony 10HT projector. I use it for 30% DVD, 60% HD and 10% Other. A relative has a "professionally calibrated" Sharp 10000. Family and friends have viewed both projectors with HD content quite extensively. ALL of them prefer my Sony 10HT to the Sharp. ALL -- even my relative to owns the Sharp 10000 prefers my Sony.

When I visited "Ultimate Electronics" to view their Sharp 10000, it was even worse than my relative's. So, my experience has been that my Sony projector is actually better than the Sharp for HD content.

I also think the Sony is better for DVD content but that is not a fair comparison since I have a Zenith player that upconverts to HD and my relative doesn't.

I am waiting for a "laboratory tested" Sony HS-51 by professional evaluators to inform me if the Sony holds up against the DLP projectors such as the BENQ and Sharp.

Originally posted by Stereodude
Aggression? :confused:

I'm not being aggressive, I'm trying to understand your comments. You say that contrast ratio doesn't matter, but then still say you don't think it meets the spec. Why even mention the spec if it doesn't matter?

:confused:

Dude, I have no problem with you getting into a long discussion with JPG about how
he can accuse Sony of cheating on specs he hasn't formally measured. Please, knock
yourself out. But, could you PLEASE WAIT A FEW DAYS so that he's had a chance to
give me the information I need to make a projector buying decision _before_ you
chase him off? I'm finding it really hard to get first hand reports at this point, and
I find his comments really helpful. They could make the difference between me buying
an AE700 right now or waiting until the HS51 is in full release.

So, to summarize, please WAIT a little while before chasing him off this board. Thanks
in advance.

-PS

Originally posted by Stereodude
Aggression? :confused:

I'm not being aggressive, I'm trying to understand your comments. You say that contrast ratio doesn't matter, but then still say you don't think it meets the spec. Why even mention the spec if it doesn't matter?

:confused:

I'm sorry. Agression is not the word I would have used in French, but I did not find the one who match my thought. Give me a word 2 or 3 steps lower and it will match!
- I say that the claimed contrast ratio does not matter to me, not the contrast ratio itself, which is very crucial.
- I think, acording to what I saw, that it does not look twice as deep as the best I have seen. Now on this, maybe that the eye cannot see that much of a difference?
- I mentioned the spec to explain that it doesn't matter much to me. See: if I want to say that the 6000:1 ratio does not seem real to me, I have to mention the number in my sentence so it's clear. This is why I mentionned it. Maybe I overestimated my English, and should not post here any more...
Please confirm.

Originally posted by Stereodude
I guess I'm still a little confused...

To measure the on/off contrast ratio (dynamic range) you feed the projector a 100IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement A, you feed the projector a 0 IRE screen and measure the brightness and get measurement B. You divide B by A and get the full on / full off contrast ratio (dynamic range).

Perhaps you can clarify what Sharp, Sony and Optima are doing and how they differ from each other if my above mentioned method isn't correct.

To measure the contrast ratio, I think that one should probably use the method you mention. Where did you read that this is how they do it?

And no, I cannot clarify what Sharp Optoma and the others are doing and how they differ, because I precisely told you that I don't know how they do it!
I think that I begin to understand why you are confused: you read me too fast (do you want me to quote myself?)! (or is it my English?)

Originally posted by AnthonyP
JPG - Hifissimo: if I remember correctly Ran saw the Sony at CEDIA and said that blacks where close to his Sharp and he liked the price difference and the brighter image. So he was thinking of going with the Sony

That's a great news! It mean that the machine I had in hands was not totally finished, and the one at Cedia was more advanced, more achieved, and I am all excited about that (I bet high on the HS50 by pre ordering a big quantity based on my findings, and now you are suggesting that I did not order enough! Thanks!)

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
Yes, definitely. And don't get me wrong: I don't sell overseas and my French customers barely read English!
But get a good player behind it. And for me, the very good player, if you read my test (somebody translated it in English and posted it on AVS), is the Denon DVD3910.

You're wrong!!

As I told you once, I'm everywhere! ;) ;)

Originally posted by JPG - Hifissimo
I'm sorry. Agression is not the word I would have used in French, but I did not find the one who match my thought. Give me a word 2 or 3 steps lower and it will match!
- I say that the claimed contrast ratio does not matter to me, not the contrast ratio itself, which is very crucial.
- I think, acording to what I saw, that it does not look twice as deep as the best I have seen. Now on this, maybe that the eye cannot see that much of a difference?
- I mentioned the spec to explain that it doesn't matter much to me. See: if I want to say that the 6000:1 ratio does not seem real to me, I have to mention the number in my sentence so it's clear. This is why I mentionned it. Maybe I overestimated my English, and should not post here any more...
Please confirm.

i, for one, think you have been VERY clear in explaining your opinions.... PLEASE keep them coming! believe me, most people here welcome you and are benefiting from your first-hand experience with this product. you seem to be the first person on the board who has had any long-term exposure to the HS50, so your experiences are invaluable right now... thank you and keep them coming!

Has anyone actually verified that the hs50 and 51 are indeed the same machine?

Originally posted by PapaSloth
But, could you PLEASE WAIT A FEW DAYS so that he's had a chance to
give me the information I need to make a projector buying decision _before_ you
chase him off?

I was just thinking about that! I cannot afford to spend my time on two forums, one in France and one in the US if I have to do more than answering a few questions. I understood that I was one of the few who had a chance to test the DVD2910/ DVD3910/ PLVZ3/ HS50 and I wanted to share this information with you as a favor. I would never think of following on AVS a subject where I cannot bring any fresh blood. I just don't have the time, and the vocabulary!

JPG - Hifissimo
Thank You for taking the time to come to this forum, and giving us your first hand information on the HS50,51.
Regards
Al

JPG.

Thankyou for all the excellent information - You have just made my day 8-)

Antony

Originally posted by PAP
Has anyone actually verified that the hs50 and 51 are indeed the same machine?

It is. (Except that 50 might lack the Ethernet port... Still the same machine in my book. JPG - Maybe you can verify?)

Originally posted by nilsp
It is. (Except that 50 might lack the Ethernet port... Still the same machine in my book. JPG - Maybe you can verify?)

Hi. I am a dealer, and I just spoke to Sony about this today, and I can verify that it is the exact same projector, except that the european version does not have the ethernet port.

Originally posted by nilsp
It is. (Except that 50 might lack the Ethernet port... Still the same machine in my book. JPG - Maybe you can verify?)

Sony France was a bit confused about that. There was suppose to be a slight difference, but the manual was giving two different numbers whether in 50 or 60 Hz. So we concluded that it's the same machine.

ric,

"ALL of them prefer my Sony 10HT to the Sharp."

Could you say a little more about why they liked it better? I'm actually not surprised, I recently saw a friensds $1200 Toshiba 848x480 LCD, and from what I remember from seeing a couple of Sharp 9000's a couple of tears ago, I'd take the Toshib, for its brightness, viidness, colors, and subjectively good contrast.

Originally posted by noah katz
ric,

"ALL of them prefer my Sony 10HT to the Sharp."

Could you say a little more about why they liked it better? I'm actually not surprised, I recently saw a friensds $1200 Toshiba 848x480 LCD, and from what I remember from seeing a couple of Sharp 9000's a couple of tears ago, I'd take the Toshib, for its brightness, viidness, colors, and subjectively good contrast.

The Sharp 10000 had slightly better blacks. However my Sony 10HT had more vivid eye-popping colors, and a brighter and sharper image. The "screen door" is present on my Sony, however it is not an issue sitting 1.5x width back from the screen. There is no vertical banding on my Sony that I have ever noticed.

Although I am still pleased with the HD image displayed on my 4-year-old Sony 10HT, I am contemplating upgrading to the HS-51, if reviews and observations prove encouraging. I, like many, am waiting for the professional reviews to come in.

Originally posted by ZeFab
You're wrong!!

As I told you once, I'm everywhere! ;) ;)


+1
Hear hear!!

:D

I just posted a message on the AE700 thread: it seems the 700 can really do 2000:1 CR with perfect colours and lots of lumens if you use a special colour filter and some professional colour measuring tools. If not, it goes up to 950:1. Since I know a lot of you keep an eye out to the 700 as well I thought I'd mention this. True 2000:1 CR with an LCD pj, these are exciting times :D

What's so special with this color filter? I gather that during the calibration one of the primaries drops off too early and needs to be compensated, no? Also, achieving 2K:1 is in what lamp mode (low/econo presumably) or measured brightness?

Originally posted by TheFerret
What's so special with this color filter? I gather that during the calibration one of the primaries drops off too early and needs to be compensated, no? Also, achieving 2K:1 is in what lamp mode (low/econo presumably) or measured brightness?

In mode where AE700 can archive 2000:1 CR it has by defualt 45% more blue than needed and 25% less red, so you need filter that can compensate both of them at the same time.
2000:1 was archived in High lamp mode - only in it dynamic iris works.
Ekkehart didnt specified brightness in this preview - we will need to wait for full review on next week.

If you have any more questions - just use Babelfish to translate his AE700 preview on www.cine4home.de =)

I did use Babelfish for translation, but I must of missed where it stated what filter was used. I did read that it used a filter, but not what specific filter.

Can anyone confirm only 1 HDMI input and 0 DVI? Did anyone check it out at CEDIA?

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/MoreImages/VPLHS51_2.jpg Kinda hard to see, but there is just one HDMI, one vga, no DVI... :-(

Can someone translate the 700 review in english and post to this thread.

I think that information would be more appropriate in the AE700 thread...

Originally posted by Ohlson
I am not fooled by Sony because I am know enoght to understand what to expect. In scenes that are bright and of mid APL there is not much to complain about with on/off just ANSI cr but still good enough for the majority of us here. When the projector is going to show a dark forest with very little light then a projector needs to dim down. With an auto-iris this can be done. That is a good thing. Imagine how difficult it would be for Sony to get this across in advertising. Saying 6000:1 is easier and it will sell more projectors.

If you complain about this technique (not YOU specifically that is used to achieve 6000:1 contrast ratio, you may as well complain about the technique that DLP uses. DLP "fakes" your mind into thinking you are seeing a full color image at once. However, you are seeing red, green, and blue flash by really fast and your mind blends it in together. You are "tricked" into thinking that it's a normal picture. Need I say mo?

If there is a process or procedure that increases PERCEIVED picture quality, I'm all for it, plain and simple. It's like being in the Matrix...if the Matrix TELLS you that the steak is moist and delicious, then it is. If the Matrix tells me that I'm sleeping with Catherine Zeta-Jones, then I am. :)

Unfortunately, not all brains are the same and for some brains (mine) DLP isn't faking anything as I can see the separations to my detriment. I wonder, though, if I will see the dynamic iris and sense when its doing something. Will it be silky-smooth like Catherine's skin, or will it be coarse and annoying? Only time will tell and hopefully by this time next month I'll know.

From the photo that nilsp posted, it looks like Sony eliminated the "A" input multi cable for the 2nd component/ S video input.
Looks like the "A" input is now the TTL RGB input.

If you can see rainbows on a 6x color wheel (after a week or so of watching), there is a glitch in your Matrix. :)

Here's a closer shot that I downloaded from somewhere.....possibly early in this thread....

http://www.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0409/16/news062.html

TheFerret--if you don't notice the flickering caused by film (e.g. each frame be shown separately for a split second, then I don't see how you would notice the iris. I would suppose there would be times when going from a very bright scene to a very dark one that the eye couldn't make the change as fast as the iris but that's a "catch up" problem for the eye and when it does, you will see more detail in the contrast. You might feel some pain, though if YOU're iris gets a workout in the process--which might be the real problem--maybe some headaches and eye pain similar to those who are deeply annoyed by the flickering wheel and corresponding "rainbow" affect of the DLP. It's always a trade off for those of us outside the bell-shaped curve that all products are designed for.

Bob

This is getting tough....I am torn between the HS51 and the new Panasonic 700! What does the Sony offer (besides the brand name) that the Panasonic doesn't that would warrant a $1000 difference in price. Will the Sony be THAT much better? I don't mind paying the difference if the Sony is truly a superior projector...

-Alex-

It would appear that the Sony offers a lens shift without the serious limitations of the Panasonic AE700 lens shift.

Originally posted by bairda
This is getting tough....I am torn between the HS51 and the new Panasonic 700! What does the Sony offer (besides the brand name) that the Panasonic doesn't that would warrant a $1000 difference in price.
I think the biggest advantage for the Sony will be the black levels (CR). We'll see. And whether that will be worth the price difference is really up to each person. Many people have paid much more than $1000 mostly for higher CR.

--Darin

Originally posted by bairda
This is getting tough....I am torn between the HS51 and the new Panasonic 700! What does the Sony offer (besides the brand name) that the Panasonic doesn't that would warrant a $1000 difference in price. Will the Sony be THAT much better? I don't mind paying the difference if the Sony is truly a superior projector...

-Alex-

i've also never had a problem with vertical banding on my hs10 (with sony panels), while many panasonic users have complained about this (using epson's).

SONY Japan officially announced SONY VPL-HS50 on Oct 07.

Model name: SONY VPL-HS50
Release date in Japan : Dec 01
MSRP: N.A. (but they hope 350,000 Yen)


All of following sites is written in Japanese language.

SONY Japan website: http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/Peripheral/Projector/VPL-HS50/index.html
specification: http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/Peripheral/Projector/VPL-HS50/spec.html
front : http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_02.jpg
rear : http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_03.jpg
advanced Iris device: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_06.jpg
etc: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony.htm

FINALLY! Official info from Japan! Thanks S. Kaneda!

So if the official release date in Japan is December 1st, what would that put the US release date? Later...sooner?
-Alex-

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041007/sony1_03.jpg

I thought it was going to have an ethernet connection. This picture does not show onw. What is the trigger connection for?

Someone suggested the HS50 doesn't have the Ethernet port while the HS51 does have it. I could be mistaken as I am following three different projector products at the moment.

I thought I read that the trigger connection is used to control an electric screen.

I tried to tell people it wouldn't be out for awhile after CEDIA.... It was obvious from talking to the Sony folk.

Originally posted by BOBCAT
From the photo that nilsp posted, it looks like Sony eliminated the "A" input multi cable for the 2nd component/ S video input.
Looks like the "A" input is now the TTL RGB input.

If you look at larger pics of the rear you will see the 'Input A' is still there.

JJay,
Yes it is "A" input, but is for a 15 pin RGB computer input, not a multi cable.
Al

Originally posted by TheFerret
Someone suggested the HS50 doesn't have the Ethernet port while the HS51 does have it. I could be mistaken as I am following three different projector products at the moment.

This is true, unfortunately.

My concerns are:

1) If the IRIS takes 12ms to open up ... its going to have to do so while and existing picture is being displayed. If a 50hz signal takes 20ms is, they will either have to dim the displayed picture temporarily (and get 1 darker frame) as the iris opens, or reduce the picture brightness after the iris has opened fully (in which case you'll get 1 brighter frame displayed). Or am I missing something?

2) How long do we think a Mechanical Iris that is opening and closing all the time will last for before the bearings cease to exist?

Question:

3) What use is an enternet port? (Sorry ... I'm European!). Can we send HDMI data over ethernet/cat5? Or is this so that the US government can see what your watching over the internet and send subliminal frames from QTV into our living rooms? ;-)

Antony.

Antony,

3) It is for control purposes only. As in you controlling the projector e.g through an HTPC, not the government controlling you.. ;-)

I wonder why Sony took to following Marantz and Sharp in redeignating the USA version because they thought they could deter overseas sales.

Also, I thought the Ethernet port was for use with the included software that Sony packages with the projector.

As has been mentioned before, from the Sony spec: "Ethernet connector for complete AV system integration via IP Control Protocol." So HTPC, Crestron etc.

The included software is for use through the USB port. (But who knows, they might have included Ethernet support, too. Although, somehow I doubt it, since most computers has one ethernet port and it would be connected to the net... Unless you have a switch/hub. Webadress? Maybe a webinterface, to set various parameters???)

Oh, well this is interesting. I'll admit I did not read all 393 posts in this thread.

Did you go around the subpages describing all the details about hs50. If you enter the first page with babelfish you can click around and get everything translated. No translation for the important text in figures. Perhaps someone speaking Japaneese can post the picture and the translation. I ask questions below and point out some facts. Below my comments I paste from the hs50 information pages

My notes
1 Is there one shutter for each primary color?
3 primary color optical shutter systems

2 Is the auto iris noisy just when you activate it.
24dB (lamp control: It is low, the advanced iris: At the time of entrance) - 33dB (lamp control: High and advanced iris: When ardently being

3 It seems that thers is a lamp low and lamp high setting with the auto iris activated. Without the auto iris you can put it in two different fixed positions.

800 lumina/lamp control high 135W advanced iris automatic (*2 optical efficiency 1200 lumen)
700 lumina/lamp control it is low the 110W advanced iris automatic
800 lumina/lamp control the high 135W advanced iris ardently
700 lumina/lamp control low the 110W advanced iris ardently
400 lumina/lamp control high 135W advanced iris entrance
350 lumina/lamp control it is low 110W advanced iris entrance

4 Blu ray ready and threre is 48Hz support?
vertical 48-92Hz ; 1080/24PsF

Originally posted by nilsp
Kinda hard to see, but there is just one HDMI, one vga, no DVI... :-(
Well that's a dissapointment as I just strung a 25' DVI cable through my ceiling. And I really don't want to spend $250 for a switcher either. Hmm, WTD?

DVI to HDMI adapter

Originally posted by Ohlson
threre is 48Hz support?
vertical 48-92Hz ; 1080/24PsF
If this will take this split frame stuff and display it at 48Hz then it seems that getting a PC to output this would be especially nice. The Lumagen scaler for $2300 will do this and that isn't a lot to match with a $30k Qualia, but a fair amount for many people paying the price of the HS51. Maybe somebody can figure out how to get a PC to take 1080i and output this 1080/24PsF.

--Darin

Just to let you all know, Crutchfield has the hs51 listed in their latest catalog.

No comment on number one? If my interpretation is correct I think it is surprising.
I looked at the figure showing the auto-iris and it seems to suggest one auto-iris. What are your comments on this?

Originally posted by Ohlson
No comment on number one? If my interpretation is correct I think it is surprising.
I looked at the figure showing the auto-iris and it seems to suggest one auto-iris. What are your comments on this?
Ohlson,
If there were an iris per primary wouldn't that be a nightmare to colour balance? Wouldn't tracking be unpredictable? Or am I misunderstanding here? Interesting thought. My rudimentary experience is with Broadcast cameras which are like the inverse of a PJ in some ways and to me the colour complexity would be daunting - not to mention the dynamic gamma that makes dynamic irises work.

ted

I wouldn't think so, because its effect is panel wide. A binary change for an infinitesimal change in brightness is still not an analog change so I wouldn't expect it to be greatly difficult. Maybe the software would need to be adjusted for taking a limit or something.

AJ;
1) It doesn't try to operate on every single frame... This was obvious to me at CES... If I mistinerpreted that, then there are only two alternatives:

* It doesn't work well at all.
* It was broken.

I'm guessing it's the first thing I said.

2) How long do we think a Mechanical Iris that is opening and closing all the time will last for before the bearings cease to exist?

Years? 3-10?

People have very little faith in mechanical goods yet hard drives have motors and head assmeblies and MTBFs of 300,000 hours on the best ones.

rogo
On the official hs50 site they say:
3LCD, I understand that
1 lens, I understand that
3 primary color optical shutter systems, This is what surprises me? Is it a translation problem. I do not think the number 3 is wrong perhaps systems should be system or?

Is there anyone that can clear this up?

Just ordered HS50 to replace my trustworthy filtered/Smart III VW12HT.
They told me from Sony that one of the first units to arrive will be mine (my wife works in Sony) and that will be around 10 of Nov. here in Greece.
Haven't seen him in action yet, but will do so very soon since there is a AV/Hi End show in Athens by the 21st of Oct. and there will be a dedicated HT room set up there by Sony for the HS50 first public launch.

Hope i made the correct choice for my 12ht replacement.

Nick

Rogo (Mark?), I seldom have hard drives that last more than three years when installed in my primary computer, which get's used nearly everyday and are not running 24x7. Maybe this is why a lot of today's retail packaged drives have a one-year warranty? Still, you offer up a couple of good points to reflect upon. Why do these have to be pure mechanical motors? Why not magnetic shutters?

If a mechnical shutter system is good for 20000+ hours I see no problem.
Do you think hs50 has one or three irises?

Bye everyone. I think that you already have more information than I have on this machine, and I cannot be of any help.
Enjoy this projector, and who know, maybe another new machine will end up in my hands first hand, and I will come here again to talk a bit about it.

Regards,

JPG,

We appreciate your visiting us, we'll look forward to hearing from you again.

Mattias,

I can think of no advantage to three shutters, and many disadvantages; it must be a mistake.

Originally posted by noah katz
I can think of no advantage to three shutters, and many disadvantages; it must be a mistake.

Hmm, what if you have a scene with 100% blue and 100% green and 10% red. That would make it possible to increase the contrast for the red panel, since it could use the shutter for that special panel. The possibilities are there, but I also agree that this is probably a mistake. According to the pictures I've seen from the HS-51's Iris, it doesn't look like something you'd put before the panels, at least not 3 of them.

Regards,
Tore K.

I would be surprised too if there were three irises but that is what it says. Why not write 1 optical shutter system, instead they write 3 optical shutter systems.

If 1 of the 3 panels was bright, the human iris would close, and our ability to resolve the detail of the dim panels would reduce.

Has anybody done the Video equivalent of audio and found the average persons ability to resolve contrast? (HFNRR reckoned that the bright output of the inFocus 777 increases the perceived CR compared with a lower CR and light output projector in a dark room)

Is there an optimum light range that would maximize human CR (like the 1kHz point in the audio spectrum)?

Does the human iris close faster than it opens?

Could it be that we are more sensitive it light Peaks than Light troughs?

AJ

[edited into English!]

Mattias, maybe this is how Sony is able to market a CR three times that over the new Panasonic?

I don't think a shutter and an iris are the same thing. I noticed when I just replaced my lamp that there is kind of a 'shutter' (meaning it looks like a shutter on a window) in front of the lamp assembly.

"That would make it possible to increase the contrast for the red panel, since it could use the shutter for that special panel."

Why would you want to increase the CR of only one color? I'd always want max CR for all colors all the time.

Sorry for not being clear, I was just giving an example of how a 3 color Iris system could work. Contrast is a function of how large a difference between black and white you can have. White is a function of the 3 colors, and hence if you had 3 irises on them, you'd get the same result in terms of black/white difference as you'd get with only one iris. But, in addition you could have more advanced control over how the projector should handle for instance a blue sky, you could shut down the other 2 colors, and hence get an even more intensive blue sky. Hmm, come to think of it. I wouldn't want that.. :)

Either way, I'm still assuming this was a mistake, there is probably only one iris.

Regards,
Tore K.

Originally posted by noah katz
"That would make it possible to increase the contrast for the red panel, since it could use the shutter for that special panel."

Why would you want to increase the CR of only one color? I'd always want max CR for all colors all the time.

....and would effectively change the initial colour balance which defeats the purpose of colour tracking. To me it only makes sense if all irises are being controlled simultaneously which increases complexity and like the modern car , more things can go wrong. I suppose it might allow you to sharpen the quality of the light hitting the panel but smaller irises also introduce colour artifacts if I remember my reading about lenses way back when photography was more than point, offload and print. ;)

ted

Apologies if this has been either asked or discussed before but I do not have time (at least now) to read all 450+ posts.... the question is this... if one sends a 1280x720p signal to the HS51 via DVI does this bypass all internal scaling.

The reason I ask is that I have a rather costly external deinterlacer/scaler (which may prove not to be the best purchase but that is another story altogether) which will hopefully do a better job than the deinteraler/scaler built into the HS51 and I want to make sure that video signal coming out of my scaler/deinterlacer will not be stepped on by the HS51.

TIA,

Joel


PS. For those interested I own a TMA AV192R with the PSM192 deinterlacing card and the VSM2048 scaler card.

I don't think it has yet been determined if the HS51 can do 1:1 mapping. And if it can, if it can do it at other than 56Hz like the HS20 had to. Since this is a new projector design with new 1280x720 panels, I sure hope it can do 1:1 mapping and at 60Hz or even 48hz.

On a related note, I read that the panasonic AE700 could not do 1:1 mapping via HDMI. It had overscan that the use said could not be adjusted. My guess is that it can do 1:1 over the computer HD15 input. We'll have better info as more units get in the hands of savy AV people here.

Originally posted by EHUFF
On a related note, I read that the panasonic AE700 could not do 1:1 mapping via HDMI. It had overscan that the use said could not be adjusted.

In my test the AE700 DOES 1:1 mapping with HTPC in 1280x720 via DVI-HDMI. There is NO overscan. But there is a bit pixel crop on the vertical direction (top/bottom). It's a very minor issue in video playback. IMO it's still acceptable.

regards,

Li On

Please explain pixel crop for the ignorant (me). If you are feeding 1280x720 via a PC with the content (movie) dimensions on the PC being 1280x720 then I would expect no cropping if it were 1:1 mapping. Hence, I need to understand what pixel cropping is.

First of all, I'm sure you know about pixel crop! :D

1:1 mapping means NO re-scale on the projector. It doesn't always mean using the FULL panel. For examples:

- InFocus 4805 with 854x480 panel, HTPC only uses the center 848x480 for 1:1 mapping (though a Crystalio scaler does use the full 854x480 in 1:1 mapping)
- Sony HS10/20 with 1388x788 (I think!) panel, but it only accepts 56Hz 1366x768 for 1:1 mapping, and a HTPC can only give 1368x768, so the result is there are 1 pixel crop (missing) on left/right so only 1366x768 pixels are visible in 1:1 mapping

That should give you some idea.

In the case of the AE700 with a HTPC in 1280x720 DVI-HDMI, the full 1280 horizontal pixels are displayed (after some PowerStrip and AE700 picture shift adjust) and in 1:1 mapping confirm by single pixel width test pattern (as well as the perfectly sharp and even Windows desktop), but there are some missing (cropped) pixel in the vertical direction. I didn't actually count the number of missing pixel. From AVIA Overscan pattern, there is around 0.8% cropped so I guess the missing vertical lines are around 5-6 pixels top/bottom.

And this is still 1:1 mapping. For examples:

A. for a 1280x720 panel, if the input signal is 800x600 and the display can exactly map the 800x600 on the panel center (or any where within the panel), WITHOUT re-scale the input signal, then it's still 1:1 mapping.
B. for a 800x600 panel, if the input signal is 1280x720 and the display can exactly map the 1280x720 on the panel center (or any portion of the 1280x720, which looks like a virtual desktop), WITHOUT re-scale the input signal, then it's still 1:1 mapping.

Of course case B is useless for our application. And there are people talking about the coming Canon LCOS in the upper forum for using ONLY the 1280x720 pixel.

See, I think you already know all about 1:1 mapping. You just don't know it yet! :D

regards,

Li On

Ohlson,

From the official Sony link from several pages back, the image shown on the "main merit" screen (from Babelfish translation) clearly shows the iris positioned right after the lamp, so there is only one.


http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/Peripheral/Projector/VPL-HS50/tokucho.html


-D

DMILANI, the Sony iris is like a lens aperture? This is different from the Panasonic, no?

Li On, I guess what I am curious about is if I feed a 1280x720 test pattern via digital transport will I get all 1280 columns and 720 rows represented.

Just a question - why is the AE700 thread locked up top, but the sony hs51 floats down? Are we not worthy?

Because we're not getting a bunch of new threads every day about it. That's why they're stickied, to prevent (in theory) more threads. This projector doesn't have that issue yet.

Li On, Thanks for confirming 1:1 mapping with HDMI on the AE700. That's good news. Now we just need to get the HS51 in someone's hands as savy as you and test for 1:1 too. :)

LI On, It must be 4 pixel crop because this link shows the effective pixel count of the D4 panels as 1284x724

http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/news_2004_06_28.htm

Sony officially has the VPL-HS51 product listed in their US site!! No information yet on the Canadian side. :confused:

Just had a live "chat" with a sales rep. at Sony Style asking when shipments will begin. Response: "The VPL-HS51 projector will be available for shipping on or about October 31, 2004. However, you can pre-order this model now. We will notify you through email when the product has been shipped."

Sounds like good news! I wonder if the projectors ordered directly from Sony will ship before many of the distributors?

Here's a picture of the remote from the specs page in the attached file.

How about this bad boy....optional for $79. Universal remote with LCD.

Tough to read, but appears that brightness and contrast are adjustable from the remote. Can't seem to read the other buttons when enlarged.

Hey Chuck, did you get a chance to ask about their Canadian shipments and pricing? I spoke to a local Sony Store rep, and they said they would be getting back to me on the availability of the unit. But so far I have not heard any news yet. I'm hoping to get this before the end of the year so I can enjoy it during the Christmas season. I'm sure nothing beats watching a Christmas special on a 120" screen!!

One thing I like about the HS51 over the AE700 is that it has independent lens shift controls on the side. Plus the remote looks functional. From the pictures of it, it looks like the buttons glow, rather than light up. Guess we'll have to wait for the manual or someone to get one to confirm this.

I've posted this on the AE700 thread, but thought it's relevant here as well :

Well, Projection Central is currently testing the Z3 and will have the full review this Friday. They're going to compare it to the AE700.

But the big news is that they're hoping (pending on time shipment arrivals) to have a shoot out between the Sony VPL-HS51 vs Sanyo PLV-Z3 vs Infocus SP5000 vs Panasonic AE700 vs Infocus SP4805 vs BenQ7800 by the end of this month!!

I certainly hope they go into more details regarding the PQ this time around.

Sorry, I didn't ask about shipments or pricing in Canada. You might have a chat with the US online sales rep. yourself to see if he will provide that information. If you can't do that, let me know and I'll ask.

Originally posted by Chuck Miller
Response: "The VPL-HS51 projector will be available for shipping on or about October 31, 2004. However, you can pre-order this model now. We will notify you through email when the product has been shipped."



Well, I'm still worried. I'm planning on having the official launch party of my new HT room on November 19th. By the first week of November, I should have everything done with the exception of the projector. I've pre-ordered the 51 at 3 different places. At one site I'm 3rd on the list, 5th at another and 9th at the last dealer.

Do I have a chance of getting this projector in time????????




Stew

LOL, what are you going to do if all 3 show up? some of these places drop ship, I would bet ya :) I would guess you'll have one by then.

LOL, I guess that's possible although all 3 places told me that they would let me know before they shipped it and that there was no penalty to cancel (only one required a deposit).

Of course, all three dealers told me that they would be the first distributor in the US to receive it.



Stew

cine4home.de: CR Z3 900:1, 1460:1 with filter.

The user's manual is also now available on sonystyle.com.

-D

DMILANI,
There must be a problem with the Sony server as I get an error when I try to download the manual.
Were you able to download it?
Al

I was able to download it and am reading it right now. Thanks for the post, I have been searching the Sony Docs for it but it wasn't posted their yet.

jim

This link still works for me:

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf

hmmm, What effect does turning on high altitude do? Does the PQ stay the same?

High Altitude mode (if similar to HS10) runs the fan at a higher rate (also louder) to offset the effects of the lower air pressure.

Picture quality remains the same.

Thanks, Does the vertical lens shift offer a greater variance than the Panny AE700? It seems if you do a ceiling mount and you can start the top of the screen from half the picture height down from the lens.

I used the 'thread-search' funtion and it return nothing on 'discrete' and 'codes'. Does this mean that no one is talking about discrete remote codes, or is there some common knowledge I am missing in that Sony doesn't have them or make them available?

From the manual, it looks like memory presets 10 and 56 are best suited for possible 1:1 pixel mapping. Also interesting is on page 45 is the auto-pixel alighnment feature for computer input.

Preset signals don't bode well for HTPC users wanting to Powestrip 1280x720 @48 Hz or 50 Hz.

1080p24sf support!!

The HS10 (and HS20) also have 1080p/24sf support, but I don't know of anyone that's tried it out.

Is optical lense shift a 'freebie' in that it doesnt cost anything in IQ? I know digital keystoning is usually frowned upon since you are altering the image to display correctly at odd angles.

Originally posted by John Alison
Preset signals don't bode well for HTPC users wanting to Powestrip 1280x720 @48 Hz or 50 Hz.

It appears that HTPC users can do 1:1 mapping with my above mentioned preset, but it will be at 59.855HZ. If you really want to do 48Hz from HTPC then you'll need a video card capable of doing 1920x1080 interlaced with custom timings at 48.00Hz , use preset 9 (1080p24sf), and feed the input via the HDMI connector.

I don't quite get it though. I understand that the theory is you want 48Hz because it's a multiple of the film rate of 24fps. But, if film runs at 24fps and film transfered to video runs at 23.976fps (like DVD's for HT) then you'd really want the computer set at 47.952Hz or 71.928Hz for perfect temporal mapping right? So, we're out of luck because most projectors won't do that hz rate. Also, does'nt the lcd panel run at it's own set rate? So, no matter what rate you feed the projector it will convert to it's internal rate of 60hz or whatever it is?

Thanks for the link to the manual. I have been interested in the ethernet port and what one might do with it. It looks like it's on the front of the machine (the 51) and no mention of function in the manual at all! I guess from those two facts it's a vestigial device, rather than a functional one - so why did the engineers sign off on the cost of it??

Sanyo seem to be pushing the Z3 out a tad quickly. Hmmm...desperation?

Caught with their pants down. Besides, what are they doing in terms of DI or increasing CR?

According to the manual, the Image Director software will only be available for the HS51 and not the HS50. :(

Hmmmm... Just read the manual. We knew that there would be no Ethernet fos us Europeans, but no USB? Why Sony, why? No Image Director software for us, no Gamma adjustment using a PC. WHY?

Also, can't HDMI be used for computer input? From the table at page 56-57, it seems only 640x480 is supported through HDMI... Surely, I must have misunderstood? Since they removed DVI, we can just use a convertor plug, right?

Hi all,
Was able to download the manual.
The input "A" can be configured to be a computer input, or a 2nd component input. Which is very good news for me. Will have my dealer contact the Sony rep and order the cable for the component input configuration. Must be something like the "multi cable" that the HS20 had for the input "A" connector.
My dealer said that they talked to the Sony rep, and they still expect to ship by the end of the month. We will see. Will be happy if I get it by xmas.
Al

Do we know if the panel runs @ a fixed 60Hz or so? Regardless of input frequency?

EHUFF- have a look at ReClock threads and find out about the world of syncing one's PC to an exact multiple of the native frame rate. This is why fixed rate PJs suck.

60 Hz sucks big time for film based frame rates. The US is just used to the wind. Sadly, I want 720p at the required frame rate multiples on analogue RGBHV.

"Is optical lense shift a 'freebie' in that it doesnt cost anything in IQ? I know digital keystoning is usually frowned upon since you are altering the image to display correctly at odd angles."

I have the same question. I think he meant to say picture quality. If I can have the same PQ by mounting dead center but 12 inches off ceiling versus 26 inches off the ceiling I would rather go 12 inches. (I have 10 foot ceilings and plan screen top at almost 8 feet)

Thanks

Jim

Sony obviously still does not have separate input buttons for each input type on the remote, although it was requested since the HS10. Changing the input channel with the HS10 is really painful ... well, maybe they saved that one for the HS60 ...

Added:
It seems that there is no horizontal keystone any more (?). And the lens shift is not exactly as flexible as the old keystone correction in terms of horizontal mis-alignment. Of course, lens shift is a great improvement but as I'd have to put the pj for "extreme side projection" as I currently have to do with the HS10 this is a problem for me. Seems like I cannot place the HS51 at the same location. Bummer.

Originally posted by easypeacy42
Sony obviously still does not have separate input buttons for each input type on the remote, although it was requested since the HS10. Changing the input channel with the HS10 is really painful ... well, maybe they saved that one for the HS60 ...


If this function is built in electronically, perhaps you could get one of those Sony universal controllers to do that. Could explain one reason why they're selling them.


Added:
It seems that there is no horizontal keystone any more (?). And the lens shift is not exactly as flexible as the old keystone correction in terms of horizontal mis-alignment. Of course, lens shift is a great improvement but as I'd have to put the pj for "extreme side projection" as I currently have to do with the HS10 this is a problem for me. Seems like I cannot place the HS51 at the same location. Bummer.

That's not a problem. The manual clearly states that you could move the screen (using the lens shift feature) horizontally '50%' of screen width & '100%' screen height. According to page 19 of the manual, if you've got a 120" screen, you could move the screen horizontally, up to a maximum of, 52 3/8". That's more than 4 feet left or right relative to the middle of the lens. I think that's absolutely amazing! And you still retain 100% PQ. Try not to use keystoning if at all possible due to loss of PQ. Move furnitures if you have to. :D

I absolutely love lens shift. Especially the '100% screen height' vertical lens shift the Sony has. They're basically saving me $200 on a ceiling mount plus the hassle of getting it installed. I think that's worth paying a little more for, don't you think? :D

I have all my cables and equipment installed for my first theater and I'm waiting for my HS51 and have decided to go with a 110" FIREHAWK screen. Three different people at Stewart recommended this (I have no ambient light issues in my theater).

I've been reading through the SONY HS51 manual and think I may have undersized my screen. My overall room depth is 230 1/4". From that I subtracted 15 1/4 (front hole of mounting bracket of the installed PSS 610 suspension support to rear wall) and an additional 1" (front wall to face of screen). My 'a' dimension came out to 214". If I've done this right the maximum 'a' distance for a 110" screen is 201 1/2". If I haven't screwed up or missed some basic concept it appears I may have to go to a larger screen.

Have I messed up some basic concept? What size should I order? Can anyone help me determine the right screen size to order for HDTV.

Thanks

Originally posted by tylerdgr8
I have all my cables and equipment installed for my first theater and I'm waiting for my HS51 and have decided to go with a 110" FIREHAWK screen. Three different people at Stewart recommended this (I have no ambient light issues in my theater).

I've been reading through the SONY HS51 manual and think I may have undersized my screen. My overall room depth is 230 1/4". From that I subtracted 15 1/4 (front hole of mounting bracket of the installed PSS 610 suspension support to rear wall) and an additional 1" (front wall to face of screen). My 'a' dimension came out to 214". If I've done this right the maximum 'a' distance for a 110" screen is 201 1/2". If I haven't screwed up or missed some basic concept it appears I may have to go to a larger screen.

Have I messed up some basic concept? What size should I order? Can anyone help me determine the right screen size to order for HDTV.

Thanks

Standard Lens Throwing Distance: 40" - 1.2m-1.8m; 60" - 1.8m-2.7m; 80" - 2.4m-3.7m; 100" - 2.9m-4.6m; 120" - 3.5m-5.5m; 150" 4.4m-6.9m; 180" - 5.3m-8.3m; 200" - 5.8m-9.2m


You're correct (unfortunately). The maximum distance for a 110" screen is 196.85" (16.4'). At your distance of 214" (17.8'), you'll need to project at least a 120" screen. I'm planning on a 126" from about the same distance (18').




Stew

Well, just called the SonyStyle.Ca reps in regards to availability of the HS51 in Canada. A side note, when calling a call centre it's a hit & miss as always in terms of whether you get someone informed or not. But basically the guy I talked to, with a foreign accent, said he doesn't see it in their system, so it's not available here in Canada. And went on rambling about some products aren't available here and vice versa. Uh...yeah...right. I should have directed him to the HS51 manual, which clearly states on page 3 "For the customers in Canada" in regards to complying with some code only the government knows why.

Anyway, I'm not going to blaming Sony or the guy, it's just the way call centre works these days. So no info there.

I called my Sony rep, and he said their warehouse doesn't have any, and it's not currently in their computer systems yet. No pre-order. But may need to check back in 2-3 weeks. Well, at least he didn't deny it being availabe for purchse here. If anyone finds out when the ETA for Canada is please post here, thanks. I'll give you guys an update for those interested Canadians.

Nothing to add today, just couldn't let this thread move off of the first page.

:)



Stew

When o when will the Sony's be out.

Distributer I talked to seemed to think the end of the month. Take it for what it's worth.

Originally posted by TheFerret
When o when will the Sony's be out.


O when o when will they be.





Stew

Originally posted by Souki
That's not a problem. The manual clearly states that you could move the screen (using the lens shift feature) horizontally '50%' of screen width & '100%' screen height. According to page 19 of the manual, if you've got a 120" screen, you could move the screen horizontally, up to a maximum of, 52 3/8". That's more than 4 feet left or right relative to the middle of the lens. I think that's absolutely amazing! And you still retain 100% PQ. Try not to use keystoning if at all possible due to loss of PQ. Move furnitures if you have to. :D
I absolutely love lens shift. Especially the '100% screen height' vertical lens shift the Sony has. They're basically saving me $200 on a ceiling mount plus the hassle of getting it installed. I think that's worth paying a little more for, don't you think? :D

I completely agree, lens shift is great. But still in my case it IS a problem. Currently I have the HS10 about 1.5 feet left from the left edge of the screen (!). This is possible by using more or less max. keystone correction.

With the max. lens shift of HS51 I cannot come near where I have to be with my setup. Yes, of course "move furniture if you can" :D ... but I can't, unfortunately. And, yes, everybody says "oh my god, don't use that much keystone correction, you loose PQ like hell" ... but first of all I really do not have any other possibility and second, I can tell you that, believe it or not, there is no visible PQ loss for normal DVD viewing (no HDTV thingies in Europe anyway ...). Of course there is PQ loss, you loose lots of pixels, brightness, etc. but I was surprised myself when I realized that for simple DVD viewing there's no noticable impact.

Originally posted by TheFerret
When o when will the Sony's be out.

i saw one site said 29 Oct, and sony's site says on or about 31 Oct. the question i want to know is when will i find out how many are alloted to the different places cause i have 2 on pre-order. both said the sony will be allocated for some time, and i'm 3rd on the pre-order list one place for $XXXX, and 8th on the list at another place that is $300 cheaper than the first. if i can't get in on the first shipment on one, i'm going with the other, even if it is more money.

eric

Are you buying two, or just covering your bases? :)

Originally posted by ericeash
if i can't get in on the first shipment on one, i'm going with the other, even if it is more money.



That's also what I'm doing with my three pre-orders.




Stew

Originally posted by TheFerret
Are you buying two, or just covering your bases? :)

well, i actually planned to cancel the more expensive one, but after i made the pre-order for the cheaper one and was then told i was 8th on the list i decided to keep them both until they each let me know how many they will be alloted on the first run. i've been without a projector since a month before cedia when i decided to buy an HS20. then i decided to wait til cedia just to see, and then i changed my mind and went with the HS51. the wait is killing me, so i want one of the first runs. so now i'm covering my bases.

eric

oh yeah, did i mention i'm upgrading from an 800 x 600, 4:3 LCD from hitachi that had a manufactuer contrast rating of 200:1, so i'm a little anxious.

Eric, that's pretty funny. Are you going to have this present gift-wrapped?

Question about the projector lens ring. Does anyone know if its threaded, and in either case (threaded or not) what the diameter is?

I received 4 Emails today:

1. Your Pioneer Elite 56txi receiver and 56avi DVD player have shipped.
2. Your Carada 126" BW screen has shipped
3. Your Axiom speakers have shipped (QS8's, QS4's, M22ti's, VP150).
4. Just a reminder, I have your Coaster HT seats on hand. Just let me know when you want them delivered.

I got my sub (SVS PB2-ISD) two weeks ago. I painted the room today and just have to put up fabric, carpet and trim.

I'M WAITING ON ONE MORE EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!




Stew

Had a change to spend a couple of hours with a pre-production HS50 yesterday afternoon. He was connected to a sony dvp 999es palyer with components playing PAL progressive. The screen was a high contrast (short of grey) PROJECTA (similar to the da lites here in Europe).
I had some time also to play with the menu which is different from my vpl-vw12ht one.
The screen door is totaly absent. From a viewing distance of 4 meters and having a 110 inch diagonal screen the image was so smooth a film like that it remind me the one of an Infocus 7205 that one friend of mine has.
Colors were perfect (mind that my 12ht is calibrated to D65 with SMART III and has a CC30R filter), and the pj was extremely silent (at low lamp mode).
Now to the contrast issue, it is by no means 6000:1, BUT it is superrior to anything i have seen in sub 6000 eur. category including DLPs.
Gray scale is smooth and accurate, and the blacks are at a matterhorn dlp level. Iris was at auto (combining nice light output and good blacks) but i thought is was a bit slow (but not distructing at all) when reacting to from the brightest image to the dimest (although i need more time to spend with the pj be sure about this).
Build quality is no near my 12ht but it makes sense according to the price.
Well, will i buy him??
Yes, because for these amounr of money it the best pq i have seen and it can be better if calibrated properly (the options available are more than enough, i.e. Real color processing, Black level - high,low, Iris settings, color temps etc).
Well, thats for now. I can answer any question (if i know the answer of course) but bear in mind the time difference (i leave in south Europe).

Nick

Great Post, Nick!
Gordon

So, any guess Nick how this pre-production unit may actually differ from the production units?

Nope.
They (my dealer) only told me that it had some minor panel missallignment (which i did not notice) and that propably the production unit will have an updated firmware (or at least a final ver. of it).


Nick

Ok, cool. I read that the Sony Qualia 004's Ethernet port afforded remote-access by distant tech support, but I really am clueless as to exactly what this is for. I scanned the HS51 owners manual, but it doesn't exactly say what its for. Anyone got any ideas? I guess I scane this thread, too ...

EDIT:

Posted by hcvdg on 09-10-04 08:36 PM:
Any thoughts on the utility of the Ethernet connector?
"HS51 is equipped with an Ethernet connector for complete AV system integration via IP Control Protocol."

Ok, but I am not sure how to interpret this. Since Sony and Microsoft seem to each be putting a foot in the same bed with Blu-Ray and VC1/WM9 maybe we could hope to stream something across this interface? Or, maybe Sony plans on testing PC software that would allow a complete IP system integration for control.

I hope for video streaming or firmware update capability, but most likely the port is just for projector control, settings management, and calibration.

Originally posted by nb2121
Had a change to spend a couple of hours with a pre-production HS50 yesterday afternoon.

[...]

Well, thats for now. I can answer any question (if i know the answer of course) but bear in mind the time difference (i leave in south Europe).

Nick

Any sign of VB?

Should it be VB Free and Black as you say, i'll get one myself once it
hits the streets here in italy...

What cables should I run in preperation for this unit:

I have the 59avi DVD player, so I'll run HDMI for that.
Other than my 56txi receiver, I don't have any other equipment yet. Should I just run component as well and then when I add a Directv receiver (HD) or a VCR, just use hook them up to the receiver and use it for switching?



Stew

Originally posted by Stew4msu
Should I just run component as well and then when I add a Directv receiver (HD) or a VCR, just use hook them up to the receiver and use it for switching?
Stew

That's pretty much what I did. DVI (same as HDMI) from DVD player to PJ and component from reciever to PJ. Everything but the DVD player then gets switched in the reciever. It's not an ideal approach, but until mfg's provide two digital inputs on the PJs or recievers start sporting DVI/HDMI switching capability, we're stuck with half-way measures like this. Some folks prefer to run their cable box digital instead of dvd player. Matter of preference/taste.

It makes sense to run all flavors of cable while you're running them. I even ran s-video and composite, even though I never really used them.

FWIW,
Gordon

Don't forget the ethernet cable, just in case :)

Originally posted by nb2121
Had a change to spend a couple of hours with a pre-production HS50 yesterday afternoon. He was connected to a sony dvp 999es palyer with components playing PAL progressive. The screen was a high contrast (short of grey) PROJECTA (similar to the da lites here in Europe).
I had some time also to play with the menu which is different from my vpl-vw12ht one.
The screen door is totaly absent. From a viewing distance of 4 meters and having a 110 inch diagonal screen the image was so smooth a film like that it remind me the one of an Infocus 7205 that one friend of mine has.
Colors were perfect (mind that my 12ht is calibrated to D65 with SMART III and has a CC30R filter), and the pj was extremely silent (at low lamp mode).
Now to the contrast issue, it is by no means 6000:1, BUT it is superrior to anything i have seen in sub 6000 eur. category including DLPs.
Gray scale is smooth and accurate, and the blacks are at a matterhorn dlp level. Iris was at auto (combining nice light output and good blacks) but i thought is was a bit slow (but not distructing at all) when reacting to from the brightest image to the dimest (although i need more time to spend with the pj be sure about this).
Build quality is no near my 12ht but it makes sense according to the price.
Well, will i buy him??
Yes, because for these amounr of money it the best pq i have seen and it can be better if calibrated properly (the options available are more than enough, i.e. Real color processing, Black level - high,low, Iris settings, color temps etc).
Well, thats for now. I can answer any question (if i know the answer of course) but bear in mind the time difference (i leave in south Europe).

Nick

Wow, that's great news! I'm still waiting for it to be available so I can order it. But it looks promising. Do you think that the Sony custom panels is worth the extra cash over the Panny's D4? This based on what you've witnessed.

One other question, which I'm sure has been asked, but I always wondered, whether the zoom actually affects the PQ in anyway? Is it better to have 0 zoom or max zoom or does neither matter?

Originally posted by BigZed
Any sign of VB?

Should it be VB Free and Black as you say, i'll get one myself once it
hits the streets here in italy...

No, no VB to my eyes.

Nick

Originally posted by Souki
Wow, that's great news! I'm still waiting for it to be available so I can order it. But it looks promising. Do you think that the Sony custom panels is worth the extra cash over the Panny's D4? This based on what you've witnessed.

One other question, which I'm sure has been asked, but I always wondered, whether the zoom actually affects the PQ in anyway? Is it better to have 0 zoom or max zoom or does neither matter?

Haven't seen the pannys, but they seem far better than the previous ones (vw12ht ones), more film like pq and more dlp like smoothness.

I tryied the zoom to fit hte screen and no visual differences noticed.

Nick

Originally posted by nb2121
No, no VB to my eyes.

Nick

Great! :D

Do you normally see VB on other projectors such as the panasonics, hitachi
and sanyos?

Originally posted by BigZed
Great! :D

Do you normally see VB on other projectors such as the panasonics, hitachi
and sanyos?

On a Z2 of a friend of mine yes, i have.
Other than that no, but my experience on these brands is minimal.

Nick

Originally posted by nb2121
Iris was at auto (combining nice light output and good blacks) but i thought is was a bit slow (but not distructing at all) when reacting to from the brightest image to the dimest (although i need more time to spend with the pj be sure about this).

Look forward to reading more about this issue after you spend more time with it. Thanks for the good info.

deleted

I just read in the Panasonic AE700 forum and someone posted that you can have the auto-iris feature on during low lamp mode. In the manual you could switch the auto-iris feature on or off separately from the lamp mode (high/low).

My first question is, does anyone know if the Sony can also do this? I thought that the auto-iris only works with high lamp mode and is disabled in low lamp mode?

But after reading the AE700 and VPL-HS51 manuals, they both have separate controls for the lamp mode and the auto-iris feature.

On the Sony, you actually have 3 settings for the 'Advanced Iris' option :

Off : Normal contrast
On : Enhances the black by emphasizing the contrast
Auto : Automatically switches to an optimum iris according to the projected scene. The contrast of the scene is empahsized most.

Anyone know what's the difference between "On" and "Auto" for the 'Advanced Iris' option? Does the "On" setting just keeps the iris completely open or close permanently?

According to the official specs of HS51 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_FrontProjection&Dept=tv&TemplateName=item%2fsy_item_b&ProductSKU=VPLHS51) , it accepts the 1080/24PsF input, which is used by modern professional video and broadcast monitors. It's described in a few websites as: "cutting-edge 1080/24psf cinema mode, making it ideal for tele-producers, broadcasters, and video professionals processing movie stock captured at 24 frames-per-second." and on Sony's own website ...the emerging 24 progressive frame mastering infrastructure by directly displaying the 1080/24PsF format, consisting of 24 progressive frames per second...

Interesting. Does anyone know if any DVD players can output that kind of a signal? Or can a HTPC be rigged to do that (I assume 48Hz refresh but ideally the refresh must be synchronized to the frame rate which I think the 1080/24PsF does)?

"Anyone know what's the difference between "On" and "Auto" for the 'Advanced Iris' option? Does the "On" setting just keeps the iris completely open or close permanently?"

Sounds like it just keeps it closed. That cuts the black level and also the light scatter, keeping the contrast somewhat higher than with the iris open -- albeit at the cost of peak brightness. The auto mode should allow both peak brightness and darkest darks. That said, the Sony seemed slow to me, too, at CEDIA. It's not like having a true ultra-high-contrast projector....