Originally posted by Pando
According to the official specs of HS51 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_FrontProjection&Dept=tv&TemplateName=item%2fsy_item_b&ProductSKU=VPLHS51) , it accepts the 1080/24PsF input, which is used by modern professional video and broadcast monitors. It's described in a few websites as: "cutting-edge 1080/24psf cinema mode, making it ideal for tele-producers, broadcasters, and video professionals processing movie stock captured at 24 frames-per-second." and on Sony's own website ...the emerging 24 progressive frame mastering infrastructure by directly displaying the 1080/24PsF format, consisting of 24 progressive frames per second...

Interesting. Does anyone know if any DVD players can output that kind of a signal? Or can a HTPC be rigged to do that (I assume 48Hz refresh but ideally the refresh must be synchronized to the frame rate which I think the 1080/24PsF does)?
There is a Lumagen scaler that can do this, but that adds a fair amount (I think it is only their over $2k model) to the price of a projector in this price range. Also, I don't know if that scaler is really working 100% for this mode yet. I don't know of anybody who has figured out how to do this with an HTPC. The Qualia also supports this mode and with both the Qualia and HS51 supporting it, it would seem like it would be in Sony's best interest to help us figure out a way to use it. Whether that be through a scaler or through a PC. As is, it doesn't seem to be very supported by consumer output devices and if we can't find reasonable ways to get that into the projector, then the fact that it supports this isn't really much of a selling point to the HT market.

I would personally be interested in getting 1080i HD film into this mode for true 48Hz playback. I'm also not sure if the playback is really a multiple of 24Hz (and not 60Hz), but I hope it is. Otherwise I don't see much point to it.

--Darin

Originally posted by rogo
"Anyone know what's the difference between "On" and "Auto" for the 'Advanced Iris' option? Does the "On" setting just keeps the iris completely open or close permanently?"

Sounds like it just keeps it closed. That cuts the black level and also the light scatter, keeping the contrast somewhat higher than with the iris open -- albeit at the cost of peak brightness. The auto mode should allow both peak brightness and darkest darks. That said, the Sony seemed slow to me, too, at CEDIA. It's not like having a true ultra-high-contrast projector....

That is correct.
At the ON setting the iris is always closed resulting in lower blacks and/but lower lumens.
At AUTO setting it tries to adjust (real time) to the image lightning conditions.
It is correct that it does work a bit slow but only when final production units come along and tested we can have our final conclusions.

Also, the iris can be adjusted both in low and high lamp mode.

Even if the scaler does output 1080P24sF I doubt a 7.5m DVI cable will support that much bandwidth anyway without resulting in sparklies or worse, perhaps HDMI will be ok I'm not sure.

Cheers
Andy

With a bandwidth of 5Gb/sec, I should think HDMI could easily cope with this resolution.

If the panels are 720 pixels natively however, wouldn't it make more sense to feed the projector 720P?

Given the choice, would you rather have a 24Hz cinema flicker (displayed at 720P), or a 48Hz interpolated version of the the signal? I would have thought the 48Hz signal would look more realistic, but the 24Hz signal .. more 'Filmic'...

Cheers,
Antony.

Originally posted by zAndy12
Even if the scaler does output 1080P24sF I doubt a 7.5m DVI cable will support that much bandwidth anyway without resulting in sparklies or worse, perhaps HDMI will be ok I'm not sure.

Cheers
Andy
the bandwidth of 1080p24sf is the same as 1080i 48 which is less than 1080i 60. If you your cable can handle 1080i or 720p, it will have no problem with 1080p24sf!

Hello all.

This is my first post here at AVS, as I have been lurking for a while. The "boss" gave me the go ahead on finishing the basement this winter (which begins a lifelong dream of mine for HT). I'm posting in the sony thread, mostly because, I really want this projector to be "the one"

If I can ask for opinions (!'m sure I'll get them, ha!)

I can have total light control, but would like to have "reasonable" results with some lights on (for kids watching movies, or Superbowl, wife doesn't like it completely dark, etc..)

My 2 thoughts were the Infocus 7205 and the HS51. I would rather go with sony (obvious cost difference)

I am considering building my screen using either the Da-light Hi-power material or the HCCV material. Which combo would provide the best combination of results? (am I just wishing too much???)

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by aj_newman
Given the choice, would you rather have a 24Hz cinema flicker (displayed at 720P), or a 48Hz interpolated version of the the signal? I would have thought the 48Hz signal would look more realistic, but the 24Hz signal .. more 'Filmic'...
I'm guessing people would be split on this. However, if you want 48Hz with interpolated frames in between the real frames then something is going to have to create those and I don't know what cost effective method is out there for HD. Just displaying at 48Hz isn't going to do it. The Teranex ($40k) may do this for HD. WINDVD6 will do this thing of creating frames at 60Hz, but results seem like they've been somewhat mixed (artifacts from the process at times for one thing). 24Hz can be displayed at 48Hz or 72Hz (on displays that support these) with just the original frames, in which case they still maintain the 'Filmic' look. My hope is that the HS51 would really be showing these at 48Hz with a 1080p24sf signal, in which case I'm sure it would just be the original frames. I'm sure that video professionals and the like would want to maintain the original look.

--Darin

I've finally got the screen selected (Firehawk) for my HS51 after asking and receiving the nod from various Stewart and Forum reps/members. Finally having some time to read some articles on a trip this weekend I read 'The Perfect Vision' ny Robert Harley (Home Performance Home Theater) July 2002 who states; "Finally, if you think you'll ever buy a CRT projector, don't get Firehawk or Grayhawk screens; they simply won't work with the low light output of CRT projectors".

Is this true? It appears that the HS51 competes now with DLP's regarding light output.

Originally posted by Sandwedg
Hello all.
I am considering building my screen using either the Da-light Hi-power material or the HCCV material. Which combo would provide the best combination of results? (am I just wishing too much???)

Thanks in advance!

Actually that's the same setup (HS51 matched with Da-Lite HCCV screen material) I was considering. I'm planning to just get the screen material. and build the frame DIY style. Anyone know how much it costs say for a 120" diagonal screen material? Is the expensive frame really worth the extra cash?

Originally posted by tylerdgr8
I've finally got the screen selected (Firehawk) for my HS51 after asking and receiving the nod from various Stewart and Forum reps/members. Finally having some time to read some articles on a trip this weekend I read 'The Perfect Vision' ny Robert Harley (Home Performance Home Theater) July 2002 who states; "Finally, if you think you'll ever buy a CRT projector, don't get Firehawk or Grayhawk screens; they simply won't work with the low light output of CRT projectors".

Is this true? It appears that the HS51 competes now with DLP's regarding light output.

Actually according to 'Projector Central' reviews of these screens, they recommend them highly on any digital display system. Only one problem. It "must" be ceiling mounted. Otherwise the screen doesn't perform at its best.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/stewart_screens.htm

hmm, it states that the projector should be mounted far away. but doesn't state how far.

Well, the farther the projector is from the screen while maintaining an image size the smaller the angle of inclination and the closing limit to perfectly horizontal it becomes, no?

Originally posted by Souki
Actually that's the same setup (HS51 matched with Da-Lite HCCV screen material) I was considering. I'm planning to just get the screen material. and build the frame DIY style. Anyone know how much it costs say for a 120" diagonal screen material? Is the expensive frame really worth the extra cash?

*edit*

Sandwedg:

If you install narrow beam spots over your directly over your seating areas, the High Power can tolerate a great deal of this light. Due to it's retro-reflective nature, it only reacts to light shining at it. With nothing projected, and a lot of downlight in the room (not shining on the screen), the screen actually looks gray because it appears darker than the other areas of he room. Of course the projector, shining directly at it, reaps a good deal of gain.

My wife likes to knit while watching movies. With dimmed narrow spots overhead, and walls which are not too bright, she has enough light to work, and the image on the High Power is barely affected.

Good luck and have fun. It will be the best toy you have ever bought - for you and your family!

Pip

Sandwedg:

This is advertising: You can also get screen material from AVS - at great prices, and with the best service and advice. Contact one of the sales staff.

Pip

sales staff contacted!

Originally posted by darinp2
I'm guessing people would be split on this. However, if you want 48Hz with interpolated frames in between the real frames then something is going to have to create those and I don't know what cost effective method is out there for HD. Just displaying at 48Hz isn't going to do it. The Teranex ($40k) may do this for HD. WINDVD6 will do this thing of creating frames at 60Hz, but results seem like they've been somewhat mixed (artifacts from the process at times for one thing). 24Hz can be displayed at 48Hz or 72Hz (on displays that support these) with just the original frames, in which case they still maintain the 'Filmic' look. My hope is that the HS51 would really be showing these at 48Hz with a 1080p24sf signal, in which case I'm sure it would just be the original frames. I'm sure that video professionals and the like would want to maintain the original look.

--Darin

I believe film is acquired at 24fps but when it's shown in the cinema the shutter passes over the change in frames and also once while each frame is static, thus it's sort of displayed at 48fps (each of the 24fps being shown twice effectively). At least that's how it was explained to me once.

Originally posted by Sandwedg
*this is in no way advertising, it's just a place that I found material only for screens - delete this post if it violates linking rules here*

**edit** sorry, I don't have enough posts to be able to post a link.. you will have to add the "h t t p://" and paste into your browser.

... store.cousinsvideo.com/cut-to-size-screen-surface.html

the da-line hccv is $5.58 / sf.

Uhh - thats advertising.

You can get HCCV material from AVS for better price - i got it 1 week ago from them.

what i mean't was I wasn't trying to advertise. If you all thought it was, then to delete it.

Where is the "shop" you speak of? Is that the same as th "HT marketplace" linked above?

Sandwedg:

Don't worry - obviously an honest newbie mistake. Only a moderator or you can delete the post.

Welcome to the forum.

Pip

Originally posted by Sandwedg

Where is the "shop" you speak of? Is that the same as th "HT marketplace" linked above?

Click on "AV Science Product Lines", the top line icon under AVS Forum Alliance Members.

Contact AV Science at... 585 454 1460

Or via e-mail....

Jason@avscience.com Alan@avscience.com

Great folks!

Thanks fellas. Sorry for the "link". I actually didn't realize this was a vendor's forum. oops. I could see how that would be "uncomfortable".

anyways, back to the projector. has anyone heard anything new on release date or how many units particular dealers are expecting for first shipment? no dealer names need be given, but i'd like to know what the average allotment is.

eric

received this from an online vendor today

The expected release date for the VPLHS51 has been pushed back again until the first or second week of November.

Based on what Sony tells us, we should be getting enough units in their initial shipment that we’ll be able to fill all current orders (as of 10/19/04). Disclaimer: Sony has told us similar things in the past that failed to materialize. We don’t count on having these units until we are given tracking numbers.

No word yet on the price and availability of the replacement lamp for this unit, LMPH130. We submitted a stocking order, but Sony is unable to process it since this item isn’t in their computers yet.

Originally posted by ericeash
has anyone heard anything new on release date...

eric

Got some feedback from my dealer today. They aren' t promising October, it is "late October to early November". No info on quantities that will be shipped but they indicated that they have less than 2 dozen pre-orders at this point, compared to over 100 backordered AE700's.

Noticed that a popular website has status listed as "announced" and ship date as "pending". I could have swore the ship date stated "Oct 2004" last week.

Is there going to be an anamorphic lens for this projector?

It's starting to look more and more like my grand opening party on the 19th of November is not going to happen.




Stew

Originally posted by Stew4msu
It's starting to look more and more like my grand opening party on the 19th of November is not going to happen.

Stew

Hang in there Stew, it can still happen... the dealer I went through was subtle, but tempted me with a "guaranteed" early November delivery on the AE700. They probably lose folks off their preorder list as time goes by. I'm waiting for the Sony!

Mark

Review for Sony VPL-HS51 up on Widescreen Review Site

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=459815

Expected to have the HS51 by the end of Oct, but my sales person said that it looks like the mid to end of November now.
Will just have to keep the HS20 in service a little longer.
Al

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Will just have to keep the HS20 in service a little longer.
Al

I'm crying for you right now. Do you see my virtual tears?

Originally posted by BOBCAT
JJay,
Yes it is "A" input, but is for a 15 pin RGB computer input, not a multi cable.
Al

Am I the only one disappointed that Sony eliminated the multi cable?

Although I don't own either of the HS-10 or HS-20, it seemed to me that was a convenient feature that added a lot of flexibility for setup. I'm also disappointed that Sony did not include a DVI port.

I had been waiting for the HS51 to replace my aging Sanyo XP21N, but I may end up waiting to see what the next generation brings.

WSR confirms max on/off CR 5834:1 at 658 lumens max contrast at 100
with contrast at 80 dE < 5, on/off CR 4300:1 at 500 lumens
ANSI CR 159:1

The projector will be showing in Sweden this coming weekend in a projector shootout. At the same place there will be :

Zanyo z3
Panasonic AE 700
InFocus 4805
LG RD-JT92
Hitachi TX100

Infocus 7205
ProjectionDesign Action! Model One mkII
optoma h77

Mitsubishi HC900
NEC HT-510
Toshiba MT-200

It seems like Sweden is a good place to be to see new projectors early, we saw the AE700 among the first and now we will be able to see the Sony projector, and in a shootout enviroment with some of its biggest conders.

If I get the time I will try to make some notes and do a wrapup afterwards.

Originally posted by Havocsi
The projector will be showing in Sweden this coming weekend in a projector shootout.

It seems like Sweden is a good place to be to see new projectors early, we saw the AE700 among the first and now we will be able to see the Sony projector, and in a shootout enviroment with some of its biggest conders.

If I get the time I will try to make some notes and do a wrapup afterwards.

Havocsi,

Sweden is indeed the place to be! I am sure that many of us would be very grateful to you for any feedback you could share.

In particular, please give us any information regarding the screen door effect and the distance from the screen where it is noticable. As well, if you notice the brightness of this projector in reference to the others, that would be helpful.

Thank you and hope you have a great time at the shootout!

Mark

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
WSR confirms max on/off CR 5834:1 at 658 lumens max contrast at 100
with contrast at 80 dE < 5, on/off CR 4300:1 at 500 lumens
ANSI CR 159:1

I know, I was just reading that in the "Over $3500k forum"! Very impressive. Well, I wanted to get the Sony for it's potential, but at least now I have something to back up the original temptation, :D

Not to bring this off topic, but Epson has officially announed their new D5 panels will be also available in the 1080p flavor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459659

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459662

The good news is that the first shipments of those 1080p products will be around $25,000, :D

The bad news is that, if history repeats itself, this time next year, the new models will feature 1080p for just a bit more than the current 720p LCD models. Or potentially remain the same price of current models for the higher resolution.

But I predict that companies may come up with two models next year to ease the transition. One low end 720p and one high end 1080p. Prices may be around $4-5k.

Someone mentioned that the VPL-HS51 only has one type of keystone correction. It would appear that the AE700 also has one type of keystone correction (V) too.

Details on page 28 of the AE700 manual :
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/OM_PT-AE700U.pdf

I guess the mfg thought that with the lens shift feature, horizontal keystone correction isn't necessary anymore.

Maybe Sony decided they needed to save some type of feature for their 'over the top' product line in which to justify $25K pricing for the pretty box. :D

Well, it may be good news for us Canadians waiting for availability on this side of the border. The SonyStyle.ca website has officially removed their Home Cinema section. I can only assume they took that down to update it to reflect the new product line, the VPL-HS51. :)

Again, I warned people about much-later-than-hoped-for shipping after talking to the guys at CEDIA. It's no surprise at all that it's not out yet.

Better a delay to get it right, in my mind.

I agree, but unfortunately I'll have to burn some fires at any of those resellers trying to increase their sale prices due to the WSR report. :)

Bill Cushman's comprehensive review of the HS51 can now be accessed by non Widescreen Review subscribers here: http://www.widescreenreview.com/attractions/eqrevfeature.html

So I suppose it's now going to be widely viewed that the 6000:1 CR claim is in fact substantially true and not a marketing gimmick. Kudos to Sony.

Yeah, but everyone will now be expect the manufacturers to report maximum contrast at 6500K calibration. :)

I like that Cushman stated that his HS51 had zero VB. Hope he doesn't have a cherry sample.

It would not be surprising, but that would depend on how Bill got ahold of his unit in the first place. Considering dealers are not taking deliveries as of yet, I presume he got his unit from Sony. So, the cheriness aspect could very well be valid. Maybe we need to go get his unit. :D

Argh, it looks like I wont be seing it this weekend. It was supposed to be previewing today here in Sweden but when I whent there the only prototype that exists here in Sweden had broken down....talk about bad timeing for the shootout this weekend..

sad..

Oh well, I will hopefully see it the next weekend, if Sony Norway has one available. Can't wait :)

:)
hello all
i went today to the athens audio video show,and i saw the hs 50 for about 30 mins.
first of all the room was very dark,and the chairs provided were at approx 1.5 to 2 times the screen width away from the projected image.
it was roof-mounted,shooting at a fixed stewart firehawk with a gain of 1.35 and an aprox. size of 120in dia.
dvd player was a sony 999 feeding via component to the hs50 a progresive pal signal(576p)
the movie was hulk in pal.
my impressions are:
1.contrast: out of this world for an lcd and to my eyes as good as any hd2 dlp unit
2.black level:as above
3.colours were excellent vivid,faces looked alive,eyes of the actors the same.
4.brighteness:adequate for what we were watching,dont forget thought the 1.35gain.
5.screen door:better than say an hs20 but more than say a ptae700.i had to go at less than 2 meters away to start noticing it.of no importance whatsoever i would say given the fact that nobody watches movies so close to the screen.
6.noise:what noise ?inaudible operation way better than an hs20 or a ptae500.
7.vertical banding:i m warning u that i m very very sensitive to vb(my best friend has a ptae500 and it is horrible in that sense)but thanks god there was none!i say again none.we were trying (3 of us)to find it but to no avail there was none.
8.auto iris opening and closing:never bothered me,did not notice it.
i have never purchased a sony product and i m in noway a sony fun BUT with that projector they blew me away.
needles to say that i will buy that pj by next month.just for comparison i will mention that i also saw the benq8700+,the panny700,and the sim300 with a hd2+ and a price in greece 3.5 times that of the sony.
the benq had rainbows flying all over the place and really bad colors
the pt700 had vb in the same amount the 500 has
the sim is an excellent piece of equipment with no flaws no rainbow,but at a forbidden price.
and to close was there something that i did not like about the sony?image quality-wise i would not ask for nothing more even if it was costing 2times what it is,but to be fair i would like a longer throw lens,and in a sense a less digital like appearance of the projected image more towards the film like quality u get when u watch a movie with a dila jvc.

btw.i m not an expert just a crazy fun that wants the pq of an hx1 the contrast of a 9in crt at a price of an infocus x1:D

Originally posted by blachie
:)
hello all...


welcome to the forum blachie! and thank you for your feedback. it is much appreciated...

mark

Indeed, welcome and great review.

So you're saying there was no SDE from 2 meters out? Yet WSR says easily visible at 17 feet. So many discrepant reports on this area. it's still my biggest concern.

Originally posted by PAP
So you're saying there was no SDE from 2 meters out? Yet WSR says easily visible at 17 feet. So many discrepant reports on this area. it's still my biggest concern.

Paraphrasing Darinp2 elsewhere, some will claim no SDE at 1.3. I believe that like rainbows some are more sensitive to pixel structure than others. If it is your biggest concern, I'm afraid you will have to see for yourself. Not being didactic here, given your experience I'm sure you already knew that.;)

ted

Between focus, material, and one's visual acuity will there be a range of screen-widths for discerning SDE. I bet I could stand 0.10 SDE and not see it if I take my prescription eyewear off. :p

Originally posted by TheFerret
Between focus, material, and one's visual acuity will there be a range of screen-widths for discerning SDE. I bet I could stand 0.10 SDE and not see it if I take my prescription eyewear off. :p

I just pretend I'm looking at a pointillist painting. Here's a screenshot (http://www.allaboutartists.com/images1/W099L.jpg). ;)

ted

Sony is one of the only manufacturers to incorporate 12-bit processing after degamma. Significant banding results from 8-bit processing, but 10-bit is very good. However, 12-bit processing results in exceptionally smooth gray scale ramps totally devoid of banding.
Is Bill referring to the dreaded vertical banding artifact here? If so, this may explain why Sony projectors tend not to have as much problems with this artifact?

I have to laugh while reading this topic. There are many posters on here who seem to expect the performance of a $30K projector for 10% of the cost. I just have to laugh.

The SDE issue has been beaten to death. It's very personal how noticeable it is and for those who believe they're in the sensitive camp on SDE they're just going to have to see this projector themselves in order to decide if this projector is the right one for them or not.

I've been a huge Sony LCD projector fan from the 400Q on to the HS10 and HS20. Sony typically delivers a very high quality LCD projector for the price. I'm anxiously awaiting seeing this projector at CES (if it's there) or sooner.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
I have to laugh while reading this topic. There are many posters on here who seem to expect the performance of a $30K projector for 10% of the cost. I just have to laugh.

The SDE issue has been beaten to death. It's very personal how noticeable it is and for those who believe they're in the sensitive camp on SDE they're just going to have to see this projector themselves in order to decide if this projector is the right one for them or not.

I've been a huge Sony LCD projector fan from the 400Q on to the HS10 and HS20. Sony typically delivers a very high quality LCD projector for the price. I'm anxiously awaiting seeing this projector at CES (if it's there) or sooner.
Who in this thread stated they were expecting performance compared to a $30K projector? First, none of the $20-30K digital projectors are getting this kind of CR, which is the current strength of this thread.

I for one am not getting hype in any frame of reference to any projector over $3500--if I were I would be in another forum. So please identify those individuals in this thread (many, remember?) you think meet your comments such that its making you laugh.

blachie,

Thanks for the excellent report!

Did you also see no FPN (fixed pattern noise) as well as no VB?

"i would like a ... in a sense a less digital like appearance of the projected image more towards the film like quality u get when u watch a movie with a dila jvc."

I'll bet you could get most of what you want by just a little bit of defocus, enough to blur the pixel boundaries but not enough to blend one pixel into the next.

"Is Bill referring to the dreaded vertical banding artifact here? "

No, he's talking about the reproduction of color variations as stepped bands of color instead of smoothly varying ones.

Originally posted by Havocsi
Argh, it looks like I wont be seing it this weekend. It was supposed to be previewing today here in Sweden but when I whent there the only prototype that exists here in Sweden had broken down....talk about bad timeing for the shootout this weekend..

sad..

Luckily this is not 100% correct. It´s true that the only production sample in Sweden is broke. But they will show the prototype instead. I'm going there now. :cool:

hi!and thanks for the warm welcome!
i will be visiting again this afternoon the show here in Athens to see again the hs51.
concerning your questions about sde i have to say that i don't think it will ever distract anyone from viewing a movie,from the front row of the chairs that were provided (i sat there for 10 Min's) i never saw sde or fpn or vb.
only when i approached the screen to less than 2m i started seeing the pixel structure.oh and btw i m a pilot with 20/20 vision in both eyes!the other 2 friends that were with me(a ptae500,and an optoma h30 owner)both were more than amazed with the overall pq,and most importantly the 500 owner said that sde was minimal to his eyes.the other one a huge dlp fun simply could not believe his eyes,and to my amazement he said that he is selling the optoma to get the sony!
anyway i also had the chance to see and talk to a very respected reviewer here in Greece (he is the only EISA member in Greece) and i asked of his opinion on the unit,his words were:the Sony has created a new category with this product that is by noway comparable to the other 1280by720 lcd units.excellent pj with no flaws."when i asked if it was worth paying the extra money above the much cheaper pt ae700,his reaction was that Panasonic and all the other d4 panel projectors were caught with their pants down after the Sony release...hopefully the d5 panel will be much better.so i said to him "should i buy it or what"and to my amazement he said:buy the Sony or the Yamaha 1100 if u can afford it,nothing else in between these 2!!!

bye for now i m going for a second visit
:D :D :D

So when are these babbies going to start arriving??? They don't even seem to be available in Japan yet.

Also, this may have been discussed before, but I thought that Sony was going to get out of making their own LCD panels....obviously this is not true. It also seems that Sony has been putting a push on to regain their good name in home electronics....I know the last electronics show, the name Sony kept coming up.

Any idea of pricing of this unit as well?

Considering the notation by Bill Cushman in his review, I would not doubt that Sony is correcting something in their firmware, and as a result delaying shipments. Does anyone know if a) Sony LCD products can be field-upgraded in terms of firmware, and b) has Sony ever done this?

If anyone is considering ordering from Japan; I recently acquired some interesting information...

Its model name in Japan is SONY VPL-HS50 (not 51).

Its release date is December 01 in Japan.

We will post its price around Nov 25.

HS50 has Englihs OSD.

reap

Originally posted by reaper
If anyone is considering ordering from Japan; I recently acquired some interesting infornation...

Its model name in Japan is SONY VPL-HS50 (not 51).

Its release date is December 01 in Japan.

We will post its price around Nov 25.

HS50 has Englihs OSD.

reap

From what I have read, the HS50 seems to be a hs51 minus a couple of inputs....I'll try to find where I read that. I seem to recall that they were talking about the HS51 having an ethernet port and the HS50 not having an ethernet port. So the HS50 may be a less expensive model.

In Europe, they still maintain the delivery at the end of october (HS50 of course).

The HS51 is only valid in the United States and may be the north of America.

Yeah, the diff is the ethernet port. I've read that too. I am only considering ordering from Japan because that may be the only way I can afford this projector. We'll see... just thought others might be interested in the data as I surely would not order form Japan if the OSD was Japanese only as is the case for the 700....

reap

The gamma software is done through the Ethernet port.

Ok I have seen it now. Together with 3 hd2+ projectors (h77, if7205, ak), and all its LCD competitiors..the AE700, Sanyo z3, Hitachi TX-100 etc.

I will write some more about it tomorrow, but what I can say is that it hands down kicks the crap out of the other LCD:s and is on par, or perhaps even better, than the hd2+ projectors in terms of contrast.

No sign of VB what so ever, and no FPN. A lot less screendoor than Sanyo z3 and Hitachi, but not close to AE700 in terms of that.

Im a DLP freak myself, but it most definetly hit the upgrade nerve hard. Very impressed and well worth the extra money over the other LCD:s in my book.

Originally posted by reaper
Yeah, the diff is the ethernet port. I've read that too. I am only considering ordering from Japan because that may be the only way I can afford this projector. We'll see... just thought others might be interested in the data as I surely would not order form Japan if the OSD was Japanese only as is the case for the 700....

reap

i currently have an hs51 on pre-order for around the same price i was going to buy an hs20 for 3 months go. check out www.hs10.com , they have an excellent forum for the 51 which discusses prices, since they can't be posted here. i live in japan, and don't think the price difference between the 2 will be big enough to wait an extra month and then pay over $100 in shipping.

Havocsi,

I'm drooling waiting for your full eval! I'm on the fence between the Panny 700 and the Sony HS51 and have been leaning towards the Panny because of the lower price and the satisifaction from several users who have one of the new units. I haven't heard much from anyone who has seen the HS51 since CEDIA.

Where in the world does someone get access to all these projectors at once?

"No sign of VB what so ever, and no FPN."

Hallelulyah! This seemed like the only possible fly in the ointment, but no fly sightings so far.

Thanks for reporting in.

Hi folks.I went to the same Athens show that blachie mentioned.My impressions were SDE visible very clearly from several feet away.No good.
No comparison to the Panasonic where i could hardly see it from pretty close.
Its harder to say about contrast ,the settings were incredibly bad ,they had pushed everything down to maximize black,there was no detail,sharpness was at a peek and artifacts were everywhere,a mess.
My best guess from what i saw is that the contrast level is not bad for LCD
probably better than on the Panasonic but not DLp class.

If I'm not mistaken, nobody in this thread commented on the following from the WSR review:
Using 720p and 1080i YPbPr multiburst test signals from an AccuPel HDG-3000 test generator showed almost complete roll-off of the 1 pixel burst. This burst was present with noise and aliasing when using RGBHV and DVI signals at the same resolution.

If I understand this correctly, Bill implies that only the component input passed the multiburs test. That's very unexpected!

Any comments?

Jimakros - "several" feet - is that 3,5,10, 15 ...??

Mike,

Interesting point. But you left off the last sentence, "Single one pixel wide lines were reproduced fine in both modes." He didn't complain about this, so maybe it's not unusual. I don't know what the multiburst test is in it's entirety.

Also, the review says "Using 720p and 1080i YPbPr ..." and you said "Bill implies that only the component input passed the multiburs test."

YPbPr *is* component.

Anyway, I'm going to take the liberty of quoting that paragraph and asking about it inm this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459815&perpage=30&pagenumber=4

I forget if it's been given here already, but here's the link to the full WSR review

http://www.widescreenreview.com/attractions/eqrevfeature.html


multiburst test signals from an AccuPel HDG-3000 test generator showed almost complete roll-off of the 1 pixel burst. This burst was present with noise and aliasing when using RGBHV and DVI signals at the same resolution."

Is the Vertical Lens Shift of the HS51 accessible via dedicated buttons on the remote control? Or do you have to go through an onscreen menu to access adjusting it?

I'd love to swap out my 16:9 screen for a 2.35:1 ratio screen and use sidemasking for 16:9 and 4:3 programming.

If the HS51 has remote controllable power zoom like the HS10/HS20 (which I believe it does) and remote controllable vertical lens shift then the whole process of switching between 2.35:1, 16:9 and 4:3 sources could be automated (e.g., with Pronto remote).

I have an HS10 (which doesn't have vertical lens shift) and might be interested in upgrading to the HS51 if I could also go to a 2.35:1 ratio screen and automate switching among 2.35:1, 16:9 and 4:3 sources.

Originally posted by noah katz
Mike,

Interesting point. But you left off the last sentence, "Single one pixel wide lines were reproduced fine in both modes." He didn't complain about this, so maybe it's not unusual. I don't know what the multiburst test is in it's entirety.

Indeed an interesting point.

Multiburst essentially tests the linearity of the system's frequency response.

ted

"If the HS51 has remote controllable power zoom like the HS10/HS20 (which I believe it does) and remote controllable vertical lens shift "

Unfortunately all of the lens functions on the HS51 are manual. I guess they had to do something to offset the cost of the iris.

Noah: are you sure? I could have sworn I've read somewhere that it at least has power zoom. I'm drooling to be able to do a 2.35:1 screen and automate switching between 2.35:1, 16:9 and 4:3 sources but in order to do it (without a HTPC) one really needs remote controllable power zoom and remote controllable vertical lens shift as far as I can tell.

'fraid so. From pjcentral

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-HS51.htm

Lens:
Focus: Manual
Zoom: Manual, 1.55:1

From Sony user manual p.52

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf

"1.6 times zoom lens (manual)"

Argh...

To PAP

I was seated about four meters away from screen which is about 13 feet i think.I am VERY sensitive to SDE so i could see it from even further away.
its the first thing i notice in any LCD and i noticed it the moment i entered the room from further away before i sat down.
But generaly SDE visibility i know to varie greatly from person to person so i just stated my opinion that it was not satisfactory to me.:)

Originally posted by Jimakros
To PAP

I was seated about four meters away from screen which is about 13 feet i think.I am VERY sensitive to SDE so i could see it from even further away.
its the first thing i notice in any LCD and i noticed it the moment i entered the room from further away before i sat down.
But generaly SDE visibility i know to varie greatly from person to person so i just stated my opinion that it was not satisfactory to me.:)

SDE is the only thing keeping me away from this projector. I'll take VB and FPN over SDE.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
SDE is the only thing keeping me away from this projector. I'll take VB and FPN over SDE.
Why's that?

You can defocus the projector ever so slightly which reduces SDE greatly without losing resolution. There are no fixes for FPN or VB.

Originally posted by Stereodude
Why's that?

You can defocus the projector ever so slightly which reduces SDE greatly without losing resolution. There are no fixes for FPN or VB.

That is a good point. I've read that before. But - I would have to test doing that with my own eyes. Which will be difficult to do even here in Los Angeles where it will be hard to find a dealer / person demoing the 51.
Although when my Panny 500 returns from service - I'll try slightly defocusing it and see what I think.

SDE - hey, the review in widescreen said, quote, "rarely noticeable on most video"

This, in combination with glowing comments on every other aspect of the projecter sounds good to me.

My current pj is a Sharp XVH37U, so the Sony HS51 SDE shouldn't bother me at all, right?

I'm going to be replacing my Sony 10HT. I need more brightness with my Stewart Grayhawk screen, will the HS51 be brighter than the 10HT?

Comments about screen door on LCD are as prolific as rainbows on DLP. Of primary concern is not whether screen door exists a few feet away, but rather does it exist from your specific seating distance.

At least the HS51 has MLA to help with screen door... so SD should be better than the Z3, but worse than the AE700.

Originally posted by JPinTO
Comments about screen door on LCD are as prolific as rainbows on DLP. Of primary concern is not whether screen door exists a few feet away, but rather does it exist from your specific seating distance.

At least the HS51 has MLA to help with screen door... so SD should be better than the Z3, but worse than the AE700.

I have a AE-500 which on a rare occassion has SDE visible at 13-14 feet. I'm hoping the 700 will be even better in this respect. And from what I've seen while testing the 700 at Daniels house (sitting at approx 10-11 feet) SDE is greatly improved over the 500. So - yes I'm very concerned about WSR's comment about SDE being visible on the HS51 at 17 feet. I realize it may only (on a rare occassion) be visible on video at normal viewing distances - but I don't want to see it ever. I feel SDE is more bothersome than VB and FPN. Just my humble opinion.

Why would the SDE be better/worse than on a 700 compared to a 500? Are we talking something in the optics to hide SDE? Both are using the Epson D4 panels, right?

"...even here in Los Angeles where it will be hard to find a dealer / person demoing the 51."

Maybe now, but I'm sure you'll be able to find someone from the forum to show it to you once they start shipping.

Atlantic Stereo in Costa Mesa usually gets the newest Sony projectors right away so John you may want to call them and ask if they'll be getting an HS51 for demo.

I believe the Widescreen Review article also mentions that the HS51 is sharper than the AE700 so do you want to give up some sharpness to get less SDE that may be very minimal in the first place?

Ok, bear with me on this one. I wrote a full review of the whole shootout I was at. It contains quite a bit of my impressions of the Sony HS50(51) and I hope you dont mind me posting the full shootout here. I will also post it in a separate thread but thought it would be interesting for you Sony HS guys since it compares it to all its main competitors and more.

Ok, time for me to try to sum up my impressions from the shootout I was at during this friday.
The shootout featured the following projectors set up in a good enviroment and all projectors showed the same material at the same time through a DVI switch, which really

helped to compare them to eachother:

Zanyo z3
Panasonic AE 700
InFocus 4805
LG RD-JT92
Hitachi TX100

Infocus 7205
ProjectionDesign Action! Model One mkII
optoma h77

Mitsubishi HC900
NEC HT-510
Toshiba MT-200

I was at the shootout for a good 2.5 hours and checked out all projectors several times running forwards and backwards between them to really get a good feel on how they perform against each other. I will write a full review of everything.

I have to start with saying that up until now I have never been a fan of the LCD technology, primary because of VB, FPN and very visible screendoor. These issues has been big irritations to me each time I see them and it has generally bothered me so much that i have not been able to enjoy the picture quality (PQ) in the projectors. Especially if you see them in a direct shootout with a good DLP projector, which up until now for me just have more punch and a "clearer" picture.

But dont worry, I wont make this into a technology war. I WANT the LCD technology to take a big leap forward since I'm a bit sensitive to the dreaded rainbows of the DLP. However I have to date not seen an LCD that has been good enough for me to not live with them, even though they can be irritating at times.

So it was with good hopes and excitement I went to this shootout, not only for the Sony but also to see the new AE700, the new Sanyo z3 and the much aclaimed hitachi TX-100.

I started by goin into the shootout room containing the Sanyo z3 and the Panasonic AE700. I have seen the AE700 before and to my dissapointment this one was not especially well calibrated, it tinted towards red. However I have it pretty much in memory from the last time I saw it and you could still see some of its strongpoints, with the smoothscreen technology etc.

I did not feel a great difference in contrast between the z3 and the AE700, they felt pretty equal in that regard, even though the AE700 has been mesured higher in independent tests. The Sanyo felt a little bit clearer in the PQ than the AE700 and had a little more "punch" to the image. However the Sanyo had some thing that I found pretty annoying, the worst screendoor of all the projectors in the whole shootout. It felt like the image had been sliced in small small squares, if your not acceptable to SDE it was an excellen piece. There were some VB, but very little and not to the point that it would disturb me whom really dont like it. The AE700 did not have any screendoor what so ever, which makes the image become a little softer in its feel, however as mentioned before it is suffering of VB and pretty much of it and so did the last one I saw as well.

On the whole they were both very good projectors with their pros and cons, very much better than their predecessors. They were in the same room as an Infocus 4805 and the LG-RD-JT92 (same chipset as IF 4805 with higher lumens and higher contrast spec) so I tried to do some comparasing against them as well. The contrast in the both LCD machines is clearly better than LCD:s used to be, so to the point that the different is not staggering any more against the both DLP:s who were specified to contrast ratios of 2000:1 and 2500:1. You still did notice a difference though, but not as much as you used to to with LCD vs DLP.

The PQ still was a little "clearer" in the DLP machines and as long as there only was DVD material on most people there seemed to prefer them infront of the LCD:s. However as soon as HDTV material was put on the extra resolution really became noticable and the result was the oposite, directly most people thought the PQ was better in the LCD:s.

I was positivly supprised by the LG-RD-JT92 which I thought was a stronger PJ than the Infocus 4805. It wasnt shown very much since it shared the same screen as the sanyo z3, however when it was shown I thought the PQ was a bit clearer than the IF4805 and the contrast also felt better. Interesting to note is that I, whom is a bit sencitive to rainbows, felt less of them on these two 4x spin colorwheels than I did when I stood in the room at the shootout with three HD2+ projectors (more about them further down). A plus for me regarding these two projectors since I have not even wanted to see a 4x spin before.

So now FINALY, I went in a took a really good look at the new Sony HS50(51), I walked from the HS50 room a lot of times to directly compare it against the other projectors around the shootout to really get a feeling on how it compares. I saw a good 45 minutes of material on it, from LOTR and Nemo to HDTV etc. All I can say is....WOW!!..It does not suffer from any of the problems that I relate to LCD: It has absolutly no VB or FPN, it also had less screendoor than all LCD:s except the AE700. I had to go pretty close to the screen to be bothered by it, and the SDE more felt like dots in the corners of the pixels instead of fully marked as a square all around the pixels. It had far less SDE than the Z3, and less than the hitachi TX-100.

The contrast was really top-notch. You really could feel the contrast ratio when you looked at it, it did better in contrast than all the projectors in the shootout, including all the hd2+ projectors, which makes you feel that Sony can't lie to much about the contrast. I have to point out however that it was located in a better showroom than the HD2+ projectors which perhaps was not fully fair in terms of comparing the actual contrast.

The image was really calm, the colors was very very good, and since it totally lacked VB and FPN and only little screendoor the projected image felt as clean as the PQ in the DLP machines which is a revelation for me at least. The upgrade bug was biting me really hard when I saw it and I'm gonna be in hard negotiations with my wife the next couple of months I guess, its not directly WAF when she is perfectly happy with the projector we have allready (a BenQ pe7800, which mind you is a really good one).

If there is something to complain about (there allways have to be something) and could be seen as a weakness of it, it would be that it feels a bit dimmer than the high-end DLP machines in the shootout. It was pefectly fine in bright parts of movies where the contrast really shined, but it was a bit noticable when it projected really dark scenes, like the moria scenes of LOTR. The contrast was really superb and the black was excellent but it almost became too dark, which lost a little bit of detail compared to the HD2+ machines. You feel that it goes down in light output when that happens, its not a big thing and it kicked the crap out of the other LCD:s, just that its probably its only weakness. Perhaps it can be tweaked as well, time will tell.

Then, the poor Hitachi TX-100, which is an LCD I have liked before. Its a little weaker than the new Z3 and the AE700, but not in a big way. When I compared it to the AE700 earlier I thought it could hold its own pretty good. However in this shootout it had the hopless task of being shown together with the Sony, and when you switched between it and the sony on the same screen it almost got emberrasing for the poor unit, the FPN (fixed pattern noice, which is when you get vertical lines and not to be confused with VB which is more like bigger vertical squares) jumped out at you, even though you perhaps would'nt have thought about it if it would have stand alone. Then when it came to the dark scenes, in for example LOTR, the Hitachi went from have feeled pretty ok in the contrast to a greyish mess that felt like you where back in 2001. Thats how good the Sony was compared to it. Perhaps it was not perfectly calibrated and the iris was turned up too high, but it was VERY noticable.

Just some last words about the Sony HS50. Did it kick the ass of the other LCD:s? Yeah you bet. Did it kick the ass of the HD2+ chipped DLP:s? Hmm, no. It didnt. You could feel that it had great contrast, but in a better enviroment than the DLP:s. In a completly similar enviromen I think it would have been a close match and not a walk-over win.

Also it felt a little bit dimmer and did'nt have the full punch of the DLP:s. It felt as clear as them however and did'nt have that feeling of that someone had spilled some milk on the image which is common on LCD (at least for me). So would I, if I had no rainbow problems have choosed it over the Optoma H77 for instance? Thats a hard question, but probably not..

Anyway, I also took my time to check out the new Mitsubishi HC900. Which is a matterhorn 1024*576 DLP with a specified 4000:1 contrast ratio and 1500 ansi lumen. It was an excellent projector, with a super punch in the picture and great contrast. I could'nt compare it directly to the more expensive hd2+ ones but I think it beat them in terms of "punch" and in contrast. However you could feel the resolution when they played HDTV on it and there it got a beating by the HD2+ DLP:s.

Ok, last but not least. The shootout between the three HD2+ machines:
The ones represented were the Optoma H77, the Infocus 7205 and the ProjectionDesign Model one MKII (a long name on that one).

I was not really at the shootout to take a look at these machines, so I wont go into great detail about them. One problem that was at the shootout was that they were a bit diffent calibrated which was a bit unfortunet, you could most clearly see it when the showed pure white material where the Infocus felt most white of them and the other two was tinted a tad on different colors. Anyways the clear winner for me in this shootout was the Optoma H77, the colors felt more mature and the contrast felt better. It also produced quite a bit less of rainbows for me than the other two, which also is a possitive thing. It was also clearly much more silent than the other two, especially the Infocus. If I was to say something bad about the Optoma, it should be that its quite ugly ;)

Anyways, thats my sumary for today. Hope it helped someone :)

Havocsi:

GREAT, and I do mean GREAT, post. Many thanks for all the information.

As far as your last point is concerned... rest assured that you have helped me in that I (like many others) am struggling between the Hitach and the Sony. Everyday it is looking more and more likel the Sony.

Many thanks,

Joel

Well, it's great to get the word from someone who compares many different projectors at the same time like that. I think that this Sony thread is going to take off like the AE700 thread did.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Why would the SDE be better/worse than on a 700 compared to a 500? Are we talking something in the optics to hide SDE? Both are using the Epson D4 panels, right?

Smoothscreen dood.
Makes being intimate easier. :D
Not quite a Doris Day filter but utilizes a prism to work its magic.

ted

Great post Havocsi.
More like that and I may have to think about spending more money than I'd hoped!

Originally posted by Electron Mover
My current pj is a Sharp XVH37U, so the Sony HS51 SDE shouldn't bother me at all, right?

It should be even less noticable than your 37U
the SDE or pixel structure in you 37 if it's like my 35 is a honey comb shape.
Your 37 is SVGA with a line doubler
the Sony is a WXGA
the Pixel struture is square
If you could take your pixel and make it square then 4 of the Sonys would fit inside of one of yours
This holds true for the AE700 and PLV-Z3
IMo :)

Super post. I envy you being able to actually see so many good projectors at one time. I've bought every projector I've owned sight unseen because I can't get demos like that. Again, thanks a bunch for such a helpful review!

Originally posted by tvted
Smoothscreen dood.
Makes being intimate easier. :D
Not quite a Doris Day filter but utilizes a prism to work its magic.

And is on both the AE500 and AE700, as well as the AE300 (although with less resolution). I don't see any reason that SDE would be any different between the AE500 and AE700 (although neither one should really have much). The scanline issue looked about the same between the two to me.

--Darin

I am purchasing the sony hs51, my firat ever projector, for a room that is 20 feet long and 10 feet wide, with a 7 foot ceiling height.

First of all, with these wonderful reviews now in, does a 106" diagonal screen sound too big for the Sony? Or does the Sony sound bright enough for this size screen. (Any thoughts on what gain screen will be best?)

Secondly, how far back will I need to ceiling mount the Sony in this room?

Thanks!

Larry

Woops, that was supposed to say, "my FIRST ever projector"

Larry

For any who own or have spent time viewing the HS-51 (50), will screendoor possibly be visible on a 110" screen from as close as 17'? I don't know whether the WSR reviewer had seen it significantly from that far a distance.

An online retailer, not sure if I'm allowed to post their names on here, states on their website that the VPL-HS51 will be "Expected Nov 15, 2004". Not sure how accurate this is from a US site.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Atlantic Stereo in Costa Mesa usually gets the newest Sony projectors right away so John you may want to call them and ask if they'll be getting an HS51 for demo.

I believe the Widescreen Review article also mentions that the HS51 is sharper than the AE700 so do you want to give up some sharpness to get less SDE that may be very minimal in the first place?

Thanks! I'll be calling Atlantic Stereo Monday.

My AE-500 seems pretty sharp to me - in fact I have the sharpness turned down almost as far as it will go. So obviously I prefer a very smooth image. What I really want to try is a slight defocus on the HS51 - which may take care of any SDE (which I'm very sensitive to) and give me the smoother picture I prefer. Granted I'd love to get rid of the VB and FPN the 500 (and 700) suffer from.

John,

Atlantic Stereo has a couple of nice demo rooms for projectors last I was there. They had the 10HT, 11HT and HS10 on demo shortly after those were released. I haven't been there since the HS10 was released. If you do find out sometime they have one on demo please post or PM me as I'm very interested in seeing one too otherwise I'll likely see one at CES in January.

Good luck!
Wayne

Originally posted by darinp2
And is on both the AE500 and AE700, as well as the AE300 (although with less resolution). I don't see any reason that SDE would be any different between the AE500 and AE700 (although neither one should really have much). The scanline issue looked about the same between the two to me.

--Darin

Which is precisely why I value your opinion immensely.
I've seen the 500 and wasn't overwhelmed by its ability to mask pixel structure and though I'm not overly disconcerted about SDE, scanline breakup definitely bothers me. It might be the uncertainty and randomness of it.
It will be a while before I can compare the two here in the land up north and look forward to any hands on insight you can provide.

ted

Havocsi,

Thanks so much for the feast of information!

Originally posted by larsil
I am purchasing the sony hs51, my firat ever projector, for a room that is 20 feet long and 10 feet wide, with a 7 foot ceiling height.

First of all, with these wonderful reviews now in, does a 106" diagonal screen sound too big for the Sony? Or does the Sony sound bright enough for this size screen. (Any thoughts on what gain screen will be best?)

Secondly, how far back will I need to ceiling mount the Sony in this room?

Thanks!

Larry


First, 106" screen is not too big for this unit. I will be going with a 126" screen. The fact that the screen will be that large coupled with the reports of really good blacks prompted me to get a Brillian White Screen (1.4 gain) in order to make sure that there is a punch to the brightness.

Secondly, you will need to mount the projector between 10' and 15.5' back. Ideally, you should probably be somewhere in the mid-point.

Thirdly, I know you didn't ask a third question, but thought I'd throw a couple of things out there. A 10' wide room with a 106" diagonal screen means the width of the screen will be 92". This means that you will only have about 14" on each side of the screen (without a border - if you factor in the border, you may only have about 11" on each side). Depending upon what type of speakers you have, this may be a factor. Additionally, the same size screen will be 52" high (maybe 58" with border). Using the 58" number and a 7' high ceiling, this leaves you with a difference of only 26". With this number, I would probably put the screen as close to the ceiling as you can and have it maybe 24" from the floor. This means that you will have to have your center speaker below the screen and if your subwoofer is more than 24" tall (mine is), then it could block the screen. These are all things you'll want to consider before you decide upon a screen size.



Stew

I'd like to thank all who participate on this forum for all their help. I have not looked at HT equipment since I set mine up~7 years ago! I have been surfing extensively in order to get back up to speed and the folks on this forum are extremely knowladgeable and communicate well.

So now I plan on replacing my beloved Sharp XVH37U with the Sony HS51 and have a question that is very pertinent to my current pj, but I hope not to the Sony. How prone to accumulating dust specks on the LCD panels are these newer pj's and the Sony's in particular? How hard are they to take apart and clean? I got so sick of taking the Sharp apart for cleaning that I encased it in a plastic bag with a automotive air filter force feeding air to its lousy air filter. My wife isn't going to allow that with the new pj so I hope significant strides have been made in this regard. I see that Sanyo placed holes in the bottom of the new Z3 to help clean its panels, hence my concern.

Thanks again,

Bill

Originally posted by Electron Mover
I'd like to thank all who participate on this forum for all their help. I have not looked at HT equipment since I set mine up~7 years ago! I have been surfing extensively in order to get back up to speed and the folks on this forum are extremely knowladgeable and communicate well.

So now I plan on replacing my beloved Sharp XVH37U with the Sony HS51 and have a question that is very pertinent to my current pj, but I hope not to the Sony. How prone to accumulating dust specks on the LCD panels are these newer pj's and the Sony's in particular? How hard are they to take apart and clean? I got so sick of taking the Sharp apart for cleaning that I encased it in a plastic bag with a automotive air filter force feeding air to its lousy air filter. My wife isn't going to allow that with the new pj so I hope significant strides have been made in this regard. I see that Sanyo placed holes in the bottom of the new Z3 to help clean its panels, hence my concern.

Thanks again,

Bill

i have a HS10 and have never had a problem with dust, but who knows with the hs51, since it hasn't shipped yet.

No problems with dust with my HS10 either but I sure used to have a lot with my Sony 400Q so apparently Sony started getting much better sealing their projectors starting with the HS10.

I too am installing my first A/V theater. I'm going with the HS51 also. My distance, screen to projector mount is 17'-9". Room width 14'-8".

Originally I was going with a 110" but did calcs and confirmed by forum member that I should go with the 119". The opinion of many is to go with Studiotech 130 but Stewart (on more than one occasion with different techs) has recommend the Firehawk. There are no ambient light issues in my theater but suspect there could be. Therefore I'm going with the Firehawk which seems to offer more flexibility without reducing performance. I'm told side by side the image is virtually indistinguishable.

I'm finally off the merry-go- round. I have all my cables run and only have to figure out whether to go with satellite or cable. Thoughts?

Boy - 119" screen would sure overwhelm me unless I sat at the very back of your room (18 feet?) Be sure you want to go this large. I (personally) would stick with the 110" (max) - but then again I'm one of those guys who doesn't like to sit in the front rows of a movie theatre either.

Dumb question for the day...

The manual provides distance measurements for setup based on Screen Size. Is Screen Size the width or diagonal of the screen?

reaper

Thanks Stew! And thanks for the third points as well. Very helpful!

Larry

I think the HS51 may be replacing my Z2 soon. Yummy!

I spent two hours on the projector shootout in Stockholm and concentrated mainly on the Sony HS50/51. The reason for this is that I can´t live with rainbows, so one chip DLP's are not interresting even though they look great in other respects. By the way the Optoma H77 had much less rainbows than the other DLP's. It's was hard to tell which of HS50/51 and Optoma H77 that had the best contrast, since they were projected in different rooms and with different screen sizes. When comparing Sony to the rest of the LCD projectors there was no real competition. The differences were huge so I had no interrest concentrating on other LCD units.

We watched extracts from many Pal dvd movies, plus promotional 720p and 1080i material. HD content came from HTPC (TT 2.0, 9800 Pro, P4 2.8c @ 3.35 GHz with desctop set to 1280 x 720p @ 59.94 Hz). DVD content came from Marantz 8300 with DVI @ 576p through distibutionamplifiers and switches and on to the projectors. All projectors were fed with the exactly the same material at all times (which was great!). HD Scaling was done in HTPC and material from DVD was scaled by the projectors. The deinterlacing was done by the Marantz dvd.

Since the Sony HS50/51 was a prototype I don't know how much of my impressions that are valid for the productions units.

When I arrived (friday 2pm) the contrast was set to max, most other settings were in default, lamp in low mode and the dynamic iris was NOT activated in auto mode(!). The lower black and higher whites were not natural because the were pushed to hard. Well we activated iris auto mode, lowered contrast to 60, lowered the sharpness setting at times but mostly in default setting. We also played around with some of the other settings. Now things started to look good. I can only guess what would be the result after a proper calibration.

The room had a 2,4 meter wide screen and the wall behind was black. The sidewalls were white.
The 720p/1080i material was amazing. But the images were bright and colorful and most projectors looked great with this material. More differences were present with more difficult standard resolution, high contrast material. I wasn't bothered by the screendoor, but of course it's not the ultimate projector in this aspect. No vertical banding.

The adaptive iris worked fine and was never obtrusive to me during this time. We also switched subtitles on to see what happens when white text were switched on and off during black scenes. This worked fine. If I understand it correctly the automatic iris looks on the average levels of the picture, not only on the peak white and black points. Well the adaptive iris seemed to work fine, but I need to watch much more to be completely sure.

One thing we noticed was that the Marantz dvd has huge CUE problems and this seemed not to be filtered away at all by the Sony. Very disappointing. I now have a Sony VW10HT and it also lack this kind of chroma filter that many projectors and scalers have to decrease the CUE problems of dvd-players.

I'm also interrested to know more about the scaling quality of the Sony with PAL resolution material. Has anybody looked into this?

We also learned from the Sony representative that the audio noise would be approx 23dB on the production units. The prototype we watched had 27-28dB in low lamp mode.

All in all it was the best projector on the shootout for me and my preorder is not going to be cancelled. Sony Sweden will get a shipment november 4.

Well this was my personal impressions and not to be taken as facts.

Regards
Niklas
Storyboard Film & Television

Originally posted by Stew4msu
First, 106" screen is not too big for this unit. I will be going with a 126" screen. The fact that the screen will be that large coupled with the reports of really good blacks prompted me to get a Brillian White Screen (1.4 gain) in order to make sure that there is a punch to the brightness.

Stew, I am confused about the context of this last sentance. When you say 'brightness' are you talking about the quality of something being twice as 'bright' or the black level, which is often referred to as brightness? I'd expect if the context was black level then fewer lumens reaching your eyes in areas that are suppose to be black may infact be better achieved through less light. Otherwise, the perceived nature of broghtness (how bright is something) isn't linear, right?

John -

Thanks for the reply. I've already mounted the ceiling mount at 17'-9" because that's the only flat location available to me since I have a tray ceiling with a dropped soffit around the perimeter of the room. I've done the min/max calcs for screen distance sizing and don't think I have any other screen size choice. I can't make the image smaller than their min size can I? The seating area is 13' from the screen.

What are my options?

David

I joined Storyboard on the projector shootout this friday and I can only concur that the Sony VPL-HS50 is the best LCD-projector I've seen yet.

Compared with the much more expensive DLP from Optoma and Infocus the only thing missing from the Sony was the extra richness of colors and contrast that DLP has.
I did notice severe scaling artifacts on "Finding Nemo" in 576p. If this was due to the Sonys pre-production units poor scaling or the players scaling I can't tell, but it was severe!

This Iris feature implemented by Sony would be interesting to see on DLP projectors in the future :) Could give us enormous contrast ratios on digital pjs.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Otherwise, the perceived nature of broghtness (how bright is something) isn't linear, right?
It's not linear. Your perception of brightness is log based just like your ears ability to percieve loudness.

Ok, its logarithmic, on base 10, e, or what?

Editman: According to Perra1 att Component forum the "scaling artifacts " that we noticed were due to the dvdplayer. Well, we have to look at this again when the production units arrive. But any input from others regarding the scaling with Pal would be interresting.

Niklas

Regarding scaling artifacts at 576P with Nemo: I assume you were viewing a PAL disc. I don't know anything about the PAL disc, but the NTSC version is notorious for the many artifacts encoded into the disc itself.

Pip

Originally posted by TheFerret
Stew, I am confused about the context of this last sentance. When you say 'brightness' are you talking about the quality of something being twice as 'bright' or the black level, which is often referred to as brightness? I'd expect if the context was black level then fewer lumens reaching your eyes in areas that are suppose to be black may infact be better achieved through less light. Otherwise, the perceived nature of broghtness (how bright is something) isn't linear, right?


Maybe brightness isn't the right word or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. However, when I called several screen manufacturers discussing a screen for this projector all of them asked how big a screen I was going to be using and how far back it would be projecting. They told me that the image would lose brightness (color punch?) the larger you went. This made sense to me, because I know a flashlight is a lot brighter when I hold it up to my eye then when someone shines it at me from across the room. Thus, I opted for the 1.4 gain screen for a large image. If the Sony would have had reports of poor blacks, I might have gone with a gray/silver screen, but since blacks are reported as very good, I decided to go with a higher gain.

does this make sense?




Stew

Yes, this makes sense. For a given about of ftL the more area the less bright, but I was only trying to understand the context your comment was placed in. :)

Originally posted by Stew4msu
Maybe brightness isn't the right word or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. However, when I called several screen manufacturers discussing a screen for this projector all of them asked how big a screen I was going to be using and how far back it would be projecting. They told me that the image would lose brightness (color punch?) the larger you went.
A while ago somebody decided that brightness would be good for the name of the black level control. Most of us think they were crazy and so we haven't adjusted away from the way brightness is used in everyday language. So, when I say brightness with respect to an image I tend to mean like it would be used for a flashlight, a sign, the sun, or anything else and I think the screen people were doing the same. This can be confusing since adjusting the brightness control is somewhat different than this (although it can increase the overall brightness of the image, but so can the contrast control). For me, the brightness of the image relates to the ft-lamberts and so a dark screen would have lower brightness than a bright screen, but the brightness control in the projector wouldn't necessarily be any different.

It is funny how a person years ago could make things confusing today just with their strange naming convention.

--Darin

I guess that person years ago wasn't so bright. :D

Unconfirmed reports showing that we Canadians are getting the VPL-HS50. Can someone confirm this? Still nothing shown at SonyStyle.ca yet..

In the intereset of countries that are getting the VPL-HS50, here are the differences according to the official manual :

VPL-HS51 includes :

- CD-ROM (Application software [Image Director] and Operating Instructions [of the software])

- USB connector (back)

- Ethernet RJ-45 10/100baseT (front)

*Both ports are only used with Image Director (for gamma correction).

Power consumption :

- VPL-HS50
Max 195 W
Standy mode : 3 W
ECO mode : 0.5 W

- VPL-HS51
Max 195 W
Standby mode : 4.5 W
ECO mode : 0.5 W


This last part may give some hints to which country is getting which model :

Safe regulations
VPL-HS50:
UL60950, CSA No.950, FCC class B, IC class B, EN60950 (NEMKO), CE, C-Tick

VPL-HS51:
UL60950, FCC class B


One thing that puzzles me is that PJ Central lists the VPL-HS51 as having 800 ANSI lumens, while other sites are listing the VPL-HS50 as having 1200 ANSI lumens. Are both correct?

If I've understood things correctly, the 800 ANSI lumen is for when the automatic iris is engaged, and 1200 ANSI lumen (or so) is supposed to be max output when iris is fully open and lamp is max. Not sure why automatic iris control wouldn't allow max output, but that is my take on it.


Regards,
Tore K.

I was asked to comment of my impressions of the HS50 shown at the tradeshow at CinemaConcept - I posted this in another thread, with a summary of my other impressions from the show, so please forgive me for doubble posting this part.

A little background - I run a Swedish hometheater forum, and is quite familiar with reviewing home electronics - I am myself spoilt at home with a Marantz S3 feed from an SDI modified Meridian 598 via a Lumagen VisionPro HDP over DVI to the PJ.

Finally the HS50 - I must say I was confused and had to revisit the showroom several times. One thing that I immediately noticed was the screen door - I spoke to a friend that had more trouble with the pixilisation of the MT200 than the screen door on HS50. both comparisons was made at approx. double the screen width where I had no trouble with the MT200, but immediately noticed the screen door of HS50. The second thing was the colour - it was nowhere close to the former LCD pastel that I didn't care to much of, but much closer to that of DLP. Crisp and without no bleeding (as far as I could see), it was the most positive about this PJ.

But the one thing that puzzled me the most was that even with a spec telling me 6000:1 in CR, I experienced the contrast ratio to be about 1300-1500:1, but on a constantly sliding scale. It made me loose the reference of black and I had to revisit several times to ensure that I didn't misinterpret what I saw.

It was almost as the gamma curve was S-shaped. The closest I can describe the phenomenon is that when going from really dark scenes with something suddenly becoming very bright (like when Gandalf lights his staff in Moria in LOTR), the shadow detail is somewhat lost and the white almost come into crush. I saw this repeatedly, even if that scene was the most pronounced. Another way to say it is like being in dark for an extended time, and then walking out in the sun - or being in the sun and then walking into a dark room. You loose perception for a little while until your eyes has settled. It feels like the HS50 comes out of dark and goes into it to fast.

I do feel that variable IRIS is the way to go, but it's still not perfectly implemented. Also, it could be that maybe I am sensitive to this type of behaviour - who knows, we might have another rainbow effect coming along....?

The problem with scaling was noticed when the demo guy changed between the Sony and the Hitachi PJ-TX100 - where the hitachi had noticably larger width, i.e. less overscan than that of the Sony. This was NOT an issue with the DVD/HTPC that feed the PJs, since most PJs at the tradeshow where feed simultaneous by the same two sources. It was clearly a case of overscan in the Sony.

Also it is worth noticing that the walls in the room was not white, but beige - and that the roof in the room is black and the floor has a dark grey carpet. The screen was a 110" mattwhite and it is framed and built into the frame itself (about 25 cm or so).

Finally I would like to thank CinemaConcept for the tradeshow, I know it's a lot of work - and this year the preparation was amazing, thanks!

cheers

/Par

I remembered that you can actually check out and take a virtual tour of the venue by logging in at www.hemmabio.se :)

cheers

/Par

Thanks for a different point of view on the show. Now you've given us something else to discuss/ponder/fret over/obsess about/deny....etc.

What you are describing makes some sence.....although, nobody else has mentioned it so far..... Similarly with the AE700...which also has a similar type of iris.... perhaps a very subtle effect......we'll see if anyone else can detect this if they specifically look for it...

So overall, how did you think this projector did vs the DLP's?? Maybe this will force the DLP pricing down somewhat?

Originally posted by perra1
I was asked to comment of my impressions of the HS50 shown at the tradeshow at CinemaConcept - I posted this in another thread, with a summary of my other impressions from the show, so please forgive me for doubble posting this part.

A little background - I run a Swedish hometheater forum, and is quite familiar with reviewing home electronics - I am myself spoilt at home with a Marantz S3 feed from an SDI modified Meridian 598 via a Lumagen VisionPro HDP over DVI to the PJ.

Finally the HS50 - I must say I was confused and had to revisit the showroom several times. One thing that I immediately noticed was the screen door - I spoke to a friend that had more trouble with the pixilisation of the MT200 than the screen door on HS50. both comparisons was made at approx. double the screen width where I had no trouble with the MT200, but immediately noticed the screen door of HS50. The second thing was the colour - it was nowhere close to the former LCD pastel that I didn't care to much of, but much closer to that of DLP. Crisp and without no bleeding (as far as I could see), it was the most positive about this PJ.

But the one thing that puzzled me the most was that even with a spec telling me 6000:1 in CR, I experienced the contrast ratio to be about 1300-1500:1, but on a constantly sliding scale. It made me loose the reference of black and I had to revisit several times to ensure that I didn't misinterpret what I saw.

It was almost as the gamma curve was S-shaped. The closest I can describe the phenomenon is that when going from really dark scenes with something suddenly becoming very bright (like when Gandalf lights his staff in Moria in LOTR), the shadow detail is somewhat lost and the white almost come into crush. I saw this repeatedly, even if that scene was the most pronounced. Another way to say it is like being in dark for an extended time, and then walking out in the sun - or being in the sun and then walking into a dark room. You loose perception for a little while until your eyes has settled. It feels like the HS50 comes out of dark and goes into it to fast.

I do feel that variable IRIS is the way to go, but it's still not perfectly implemented. Also, it could be that maybe I am sensitive to this type of behaviour - who knows, we might have another rainbow effect coming along....?

The problem with scaling was noticed when the demo guy changed between the Sony and the Hitachi PJ-TX100 - where the hitachi had noticably larger width, i.e. less overscan than that of the Sony. This was NOT an issue with the DVD/HTPC that feed the PJs, since most PJs at the tradeshow where feed simultaneous by the same two sources. It was clearly a case of overscan in the Sony.

Also it is worth noticing that the walls in the room was not white, but beige - and that the roof in the room is black and the floor has a dark grey carpet. The screen was a 110" mattwhite and it is framed and built into the frame itself (about 25 cm or so).

Finally I would like to thank CinemaConcept for the tradeshow, I know it's a lot of work - and this year the preparation was amazing, thanks!

cheers

/Par

How would you compare the SDE to the newer HD2+ DLP units? For some reason some people are more sensitive to SDE so I am just trying to get a reference point. Thanks.

John

perra1, wouldn't it be safe to say that the increased contrast of the HS50/51 is making it a lot easier to see the SDE than before? I remember someone applied the SDE term (me?) when the NEC HT1000 first came out with its remarkable contrast, and that's a DLP machine.

I was very impressed with many low resolution DLPs - i.e. Toshiba MT200 - and from the same distance (about twice the screen width) I had no problem with the DLP but clearly saw screendoor at the Sony.

I have obviously no problem with HD2+, and is sitting at 3.9 meters from a 2.44 meter wide screen at home.

I did not see the IRIS effect so pronounced with the AE700, so I belive that it can - and hopefully will be improved with the production model of the Sony since the HS50 shown at the show was still a pre-production ex. Also the AE700 shown did in my eyes not even come close to the black of that of the Sony.

In my eyes The Sony has finally changed the softer colouring scheme of LCD into something much closer to DLP - however the black is still not there, even though it's clearly better than previous models. I also must reserve myself with regards to what I experienced with the slidingscale/S-curve gamma problem - If Sony fix that they have a killer in my mind :)

cheeers

/Par

Originally posted by TheFerret
perra1, wouldn't it be safe to say that the increased contrast of the HS50/51 is making it a lot easier to see the SDE than before? I remember someone applied the SDE term (me?) when the NEC HT1000 first came out with its remarkable contrast, and that's a DLP machine.

I believe that you might have a point there since I didn't feel the SDE of the Hitachi PJ-TX100 in the same room nearly as bad.

However I am probably exceptional in terms of noticing these type of problems with the number of products reviewed in the past, and I belive that probably most people will let the SDE of the Sony pass unnoticed. The reason I mentioned it in the first instance is that I felt the SDE to be more visible on the Sony than on the other LCDs presented in the show.

cheers

/Par

Par, join the club. :) I see things (problems) quite easily. It wasn't ahrd at all for me to detect VB (both before and after a flicker adjustment) on the AE700. I keep teetering a yes/no condition on moving forward. On one hand, I've always been a must-see/hear before I buy, but this kind of product introduction often stresses that philosophy. Unfortunately, no dealers that I am aware of in North Geirgia have the HS51 for viewing.

I don't know what it is with Sony and the DTC100, but the WSR review mentions incompatibility between the DTC100 and HS51. The HS20 has the same problem.

I'd like to use my DTC100- there's nothing wrong with it, and the video DACs in the DTC100 are well regarded. Works perfectly with several other LCD projectors I've tried, including my current PLV60...

RGB, am I correct in remembering that the DTC100 only outputs progressive in RGBHV and only at 540P & 1080i? It would have been nice had a more recent HD STB been tested, like one of the Samsung SIR-TSx60's, etc.

When a friend get's his HS51 and brings it over we'll connect it to a TS160 via Component, RGBHV, and DVI and test both 720P and 1080i. That's when he get's his HS51.

Anyone have an answer for my question re: Screen Size? Is it diagonal or width?

reap

Originally posted by perra1
I believe that you might have a point there since I didn't feel the SDE of the Hitachi PJ-TX100 in the same room nearly as bad.


Theoretically, the HS51 *should* exhibit less Screen Door than the TX100, as the HS51 has MLA and the TX100 doesn't.

I don't recollect seeing fill %'s posted for the Sony panel... it's entirely possible that it has worse fill factor than the Epson D4 panel in the TX100 and Sony has to compensate with MLA. Just a wild guess.

Originally posted by Pip
Regarding scaling artifacts at 576P with Nemo: I assume you were viewing a PAL disc. I don't know anything about the PAL disc, but the NTSC version is notorious for the many artifacts encoded into the disc itself.

Pip

I have the Finding Nemo NTSC DVD and it's not the same artifacts that we saw at the demo. I've watched this one on my former CRT-pj and my Nec HT-1000 without those artifacts. With and without the iScan Ultra.
Something was amiss with the DVD-player, strange that we didn't notice this on the other clips...

Originally posted by reaper
Anyone have an answer for my question re: Screen Size? Is it diagonal or width?

reap

I pondered quite a while on that same issue the other night trying to layout my basement plans. I concluded that, based on how the pictures were drawn (up in the front of the manual, where it diagrams the lens shift setup) that the measurements that they give are the horizontal sreen width.

But, that was just my edjumacated guess ;)

Originally posted by reaper
Anyone have an answer for my question re: Screen Size? Is it diagonal or width?

reap

For the show in Stockholm the screen width was 96" - Screen diagonal 110"

cheers

/Par

Par,

Thanks for the nice report.

"I did not see the IRIS effect so pronounced with the AE700, so I belive that it can"

I wouldn't be too hopeful of that. The HS50's iris isused much more aggressively, I believe it cuts light 8X vs. 2X for the 700 (the CR difference indicates this as well).

But hopefullly those of us with less educated eyes will not be bothered by this.

"wouldn't it be safe to say that the increased contrast of the HS50/51 is making it a lot easier to see the SDE than before?"

I don't see why that would be. The CR is increased at low IRE only. Brightness is what makes SD most visible.

It wasn't ahrd at all for me to detect VB (both before and after a flicker adjustment) on the AE700.

Originally posted by Sandwedg
I pondered quite a while on that same issue the other night trying to layout my basement plans. I concluded that, based on how the pictures were drawn (up in the front of the manual, where it diagrams the lens shift setup) that the measurements that they give are the horizontal sreen width.

But, that was just my edjumacated guess ;)

That's not what I wanted to hear... That would require some "creative" mounting options. Anyone else have any hard data to confirm his "edjumacated guess"

reap

Originally posted by perra1
For the show in Stockholm the screen width was 96" - Screen diagonal 110"

cheers

/Par

I mean, for the calculation described in the pdf user manual. They take Screen Size as a parameter and allow you to calculate min and max throw distances. Is that Screen Size width or diagonal?

reap

reap, I know what you mean. Not clear at all. Is the lens assy fundamentally different from the HS20's assy? Also, how [in]accurate is the distance calculator on projector central?

Actually, I JUST used the calculator on projector central. For my 80" wide screen, it gave me a min throw distance of 104.4". If I assume the Screen Size in the PDF is Screen Width, I get 93.6" min throw distance. If I assume the Screen Size in the PDF manual is diagonal, I get a min throw distance of 107.85". So, I am thinking that Screen Size is actually Screen Diagonal since 107.85" is close to PC's value of 104.4".

Not that you guys care, but I expect my lens would be about 150" from the screen. So, it works for me this way (Screen Size = Screen Diagonal), otherwise, I'd have to mount the unit closer to the screen.

reaper

I still don't get why MLA would improve the situation with regard to screendoor. Can someone try to explain that?

Rogo, is MLA actually on the panel itself? Is this the lamp-facing side? Micro-lens Array sounds like they are using optical properties of a lens to illuminate more of the cell on the other side of the panel compared to light passing just straight through the panel. This would seem to put the grid-word that makes up the SDE like its on the Atkins diet. :)

Of course, this is just a guess as I know nothing about MLA.

http://www.nsg.co.jp/lab/images/12-EML.jpg
This was taken from here (http://www.nsg.co.jp/lab/PhotonicsP6.htm)

Originally posted by TheFerret
RGB, am I correct in remembering that the DTC100 only outputs progressive in RGBHV and only at 540P & 1080i? It would have been nice had a more recent HD STB been tested, like one of the Samsung SIR-TSx60's, etc.



The DTC100 outputs 1080i for 720p and 1080i signal reception, and 540p for all other received resolutions (480i, 480p).

I believe the HS20 and HS51 don't like the 540p timing. I don't see why the 1080i output would be a problem, though.

I hope Sony does a firmware update on the HS51 per the WSR article to address DTC100 compatibility issue prior to production release...

RBG, me to in regards to the firmware update. Hopefully, maybe this is causing the perceived delay. Either way, I will test 720P & 1080i across YPbPr, RGBHV, and DVI from the same source.

With out proper equipment to set and calibrate the picture gamma settings, what would the numbers be? It would be nice to have some reference numbers to compare with the factory settings.

Know for sure that a calibrated projector doesn't peform to it best standard when taking this to another room from were it was at first place.
To many factors in mind: Size of room, Ambient light, Carpets, Wall colors etc.

However i would mind if there were some nice numbers to compare with.

My coming setting will be projecting from 7 feet height at about 11 feet range on a Wide 90" Screen with gain of 1,0.
It will be run by Denon 2910 DVD player and HDMI connection.
Also as an back up will connect component from a receiver deck to run some old fashion Laser Discs movies and cabel tv.

Thanks to a great site!!
/ Janne

This is close enough to release and has a fair bit of interest, so I will sticky it.

MP, I thought for sure you would have wiated to be the 666th poster to this thread. :D

I still don't get why MLA would improve the situation with regard to screendoor. Can someone try to explain that?

From what I have read, MLA was not designed to reduce screen door (and doesn't), but instead to focus light so that it passes through the LCD pixels and therefore avoid the LCD grid. This is done to improve the efficiency of the projector and boost lumen delivery to the screen.

I just got an email from the tabooed japanese merchant. He indicated that the VPL-HS50 (japanese model) will be available Dec 1. I guess japan will release it later than other countries. Anyone else confirm this data?

sfb, I understand what you understand. There seems to be an oft present misapprehension that SDE is reduced by by MLA when there isn't a coherent explanation as to how or why.

Mark

Originally posted by rogo
sfb, I understand what you understand. There seems to be an oft present misapprehension that SDE is reduced by by MLA when there isn't a coherent explanation as to how or why.
The basic explanation I've heard is that it provides a way to "defocus" in one direction so that the SDE is gone while retaining more of the sharpness than if MLA wasn't there and the projector was defocussed until the SDE was gone. This being because of the way that the light is focused down onto each pixel (thus increasing lumens as it was designed to do). I think this all may be possible with 1 panel. With 3 panels I worry about panel misalignment making defocussing without significant image degradation difficult, but that can apply to MLA units as well as non-MLA units.

--Darin

The basic explanation I've heard is that it provides a way to "defocus" in one direction so that the SDE is gone while retaining more of the sharpness than if MLA wasn't there and the projector was defocussed until the SDE was gone. This being because of the way that the light is focused down onto each pixel (thus increasing lumens as it was designed to do). I think this all may be possible with 1 panel. With 3 panels I worry about panel misalignment making defocussing without significant image degradation difficult, but that can apply to MLA units as well as non-MLA units.

I have heard the same, but I too would like an explanation from an optics standpoint. The cynic in me thinks that defocusing to reduce screendoor works equally well regardless of the presence of MLA. Scott.

Just spoke to a distributer. Apparently Sony has told them it will be 30-60 days for availability.

Originally posted by sfb
I have heard the same, but I too would like an explanation from an optics standpoint. The cynic in me thinks that defocusing to reduce screendoor works equally well regardless of the presence of MLA. Scott.
I can't really draw this, but here is why I think it may be true. MLA was created to get more light through a pixel in an LCD panel. It basically focuses the light down from a larger area to the smaller area that is the opening for the pixel. Just as an example (not meant to be real) lets say that we have 1000 pixels across on an LCD panel that we will say is 4000 units across. That gives each pixel 4 units across. However, we have SDE so the opening is smaller. Let's say 2 units across (this has very low fill factor). If we had an extreme MLA it would focus the light from a 4x4 area to the 2x2 area that is the pixel opening. This MLA is some distance from the pixel to accomplish that. If we then move to the exact same distance on the other side of the LCD panel we should have a 4x4 area with pretty good focus that represents this pixel. Without MLA we would have had a 2x2 area if the light was shining straight through and then more defocusing with distortion around the edges to get to 4x4.

This all gets more complicated by other optics and I don't know the distances involved between the MLA, LCD panel and lens, but this is the reason I believe it may be true that MLA helps SDE. I hope that explanation made some sense.

--Darin

"If we then move to the exact same distance on the other side of the LCD panel we should have a 4x4 area with pretty good focus that represents this pixel. Without MLA we would have had a 2x2 area if the light was shining straight through and then more defocusing with distortion around the edges to get to 4x4."

This is where you lost me.

The light will spread out with or without the MLA. While I have no trouble understand the image is brighter with MLA, if anything, it would seem to worse the problem by sending the light more directly through the aperture.

But rather than attribute any light "collimation" effect to the MLA, I'll just assume the light coming out had to pass through an opening. It doesn't know whether it was "focused" through or it not... So when it comes out, it spreads out like any beam of light that had just come through an opening.

So I'm still confused.

Mark

"Actually, I JUST used the calculator on projector central."

Careful; the throw distance calculator is in error, assuming Sony's pdf manual is right.

"I still don't get why MLA would improve the situation with regard to screendoor. Can someone try to explain that?"

This may be out of sync (damn job)...

I googled Epson's blurb

http://www.epson.com.sg/innovations/3LCDProj_HighLuminous.shtml

They don't claim any SD benefits, but other hits trumpeted big benefits, like a PLV70 review.

Here

http://www.pctechguide.com/21projectors_LCD.htm

they claim it does help, but with nary a word of explanation; but it's a PC tech article

Same thing here

http://www.projectors-now.com/technology1.php

Gotta get back to work, the mystery remains...

Oh yeah, and I asked a guy down the hall who designs telescopes; he couldn't see how the array would reduce SD, either. I asked about imaging in front of the grid on the expanded (after converging at the pixel plane) bundle of light, but that's just defocusing, as there's nothing physical there to make an image of.

I got the impression that the light, for a given pixel, coming through the LC was not perpendicular to the LCD panel, but rather at a variety of angles suchto decolumnate slightly and obscure the portion of the pixel that doesn't normally pass light.

Also, where exactly is this MLA located?

Noah, thanks a bunch. I continue to believe it doesn't help screendoor, but also continue to await a plausible explanation to the contrary. When the telescope guy says it wouldn't help, though, I'm thinking there's someone who knows a bit about optics. :)

Mark

Originally posted by rogo
Noah, thanks a bunch. I continue to believe it doesn't help screendoor, but also continue to await a plausible explanation to the contrary. When the telescope guy says it wouldn't help, though, I'm thinking there's someone who knows a bit about optics. :)
And the more I think about it the more I think you are right. I am now wondering if there might be some small effects to ANSI and/or on/off CR though. However, both look good with this projector.

--Darin

Without knowing where exactly the MLA is being implemented speculation is all there is. I still say we need to kidnap a Sony LCD engineer.

Also, where exactly is this MLA located?

It must be located downstream of the lamp and upstream of the LCD panels in order to focus the light through the LCD apertures. But according to this manufacturer of MLA

http://www.leister.com/microsystems/downloads/refractivemicrolensarraysphotonic022001.pdf

there is another MLA downstream of the LCD matrix that "re-collimates the phase fronts."

There are also refractive and diffractive MLAs. The traditionally used ones are refractive, but I wonder if using a diffractive one downstream of the LCD matrix would be feasible for reducing screendoor. Perhaps this is similar to Panasonic's smoothscreen technology?

Originally posted by sfb
It must be located downstream of the lamp and upstream of the LCD panels in order to focus the light through the LCD apertures. But according to this manufacturer of MLA

http://www.leister.com/microsystems/downloads/refractivemicrolensarraysphotonic022001.pdf

there is another MLA downstream of the LCD matrix that "re-collimates the phase fronts."
If there is one before and one after then I think my explanation earlier with the 4x4 and 2x2 would hold. I think the "correct" focus would then be on the last MLA panel, instead of the LCD panels and the light coming through this last MLA panel would have higher fill ratio.

--Darin

well, Noah, what's your impression on how to use the calculation in the pdf? Screen Size = diagonal?

Originally posted by reaper
well, Noah, what's your impression on how to use the calculation in the pdf? Screen Size = diagonal?
Reap,
Looking at the manual pages (10-11) the diagram of the screen only has lines representing width and height, therefore I think it's width and not diagonal. Of course I could be wrong!

Anyone know what the manufactures spec lumens is? if seen it quoted all the way from 800 lumens to 1200. I know I know actual lumens is usually completly different then actual lumens but ive seen 3 different specs. Did they decide to increase it from the preproduction? just wondering.


saw a earlier post that i overlooked that kind of tried to answer the same question from someone else but why would some sites quote lumen's with iris on and some with out or any other various combination.

I have a question with using a ceiling mount on the sony or any small digital projector for that matter. does the mount screw on in one ceiling beam, or does it go across two beams and sit in the center? If it uses only one ceiling beam does the projector rest right in the middle of the mount, or can it be adjusted forwards or backwards a little from the center of the mount.

If it is right in the center, then you measure for throw distance from the mounting beam minus half of the projector length? Thanks.

60 microns (0.00006 meters) is an example, I presume, of a typical MLA lens. Is the 'size' of the panel for it's short-side (720 pixels)? If so, then 0.7" = 720 pixel = 25 microns. I suppose one could do a 4x4 pixel array within the perspective of an MLA lens, no?

"When the telescope guy says it wouldn't help, though, I'm thinking there's someone who knows a bit about optics."

Right, but optics is complex enough that seasoned designers are reluctant to shoot from the hip; he wasn't very committal w/o knowing what the rest of the path was.

We both thought there ought to be another MLA after the panel, as corroborated by sfb, otherwise the diverging rays from the first would just keep spreading.

"If there is one before and one after then I think my explanation earlier with the 4x4 and 2x2 would hold. I think the "correct" focus would then be on the last MLA panel,"

But again, is there really anything to focus on? I presume the MLA is transparent material; if it was diffusive then there would be something there. What I'm talking about is the same as a RP screen needing diffudive material to form an image on its surface, otherwise you just see the pj.

OTOH, if that's true, how is an image formed on the LCD itself? It would need to be diffusive too.

"well, Noah, what's your impression on how to use the calculation in the pdf? Screen Size = diagonal?"

I'd say diagonal, as that lets them say a bigger number, and seems customary even though they grive screen dimensions in L/W.

OK, well, Noah and Darin, clearly there is some stuff we don't know. But I would further concur that if there were some kind of secondary array after the imager, that could be used to help. Somehow affect the pixels before the true focal plane of the lens assembly, and you could mitigate screendoor in theory.

Here's the thing, though, from looking at the screen up close with the Sony, it looked like an LCD fill factor. In other words, if the MLA was making it somehow better than older LCD projectors, it didn't appear to be doing a whole hell of a lot. This is why I still lean to, "Not making any difference" or at least "Not much difference."

Contrast the Sony's apparent fill factor at the screen with the Panasonic's and it's night and day. The Panasonic's does seem to come at a price of razor sharpness, but it's still a big difference.

Anyway, a good discussion. Perhaps someone can get an optical path diagram from one of the projectors in question, not just the general one linked to above. Or at least a layperson-readable technical explanation...

Mark

The projector will be available for demonstration today til 6pm at Reference audio, Stockholm. I hope I will have the opportunity to watch the projector again (with a better dvd-player than on the shootout this weekend).

How about taking a laptop/notebook computer and generating a single white pixel in a black field and noting the observed panel [mis]alignment at 1280x720 resolution? :)

Mark,

"The Panasonic's does seem to come at a price of razor sharpness,"

Can you tell if that's real sharpness that shows more image detail vs. perceived sharpness lent by visibility of the SD (which is high freq video noise)?

Well, I'm off the fence. Tired of being tired I guess. I pre-ordered the HS51 from the AVS Forum Alliance Member on the top uper right hand corner of this page. The orange one.

FWIW, I was told I'm # 22 on thier pre-order list. Now I just have to hurry up and wait.

Today I went to the HS50 demo at Reference audio in Stockholm. As previously described I watched the same prototype projector a few days ago at the Cinema concept shootout. Todays showing was performed in a fairly dark room, but with a little ambient light from the rest of the shop. The screen had the same size as the projector shootout (2,4m). The gain was 1,0. The dvd-player was Pioneer DV59 (868 in Europe) and a progressive signal was sent through component. I tried to switch to interlaced mode but the projector didn't automatically accept that signal and went blanc. I suppose there is some manual setting for this in the projector.

We checked some other settings. Adaptive iris was activated in auto mode. Contrast was set pretty high (93) and we didn't lower it because I had already tested the improvement of lowering it earlier. Black level adjust was set to low and before we corrected this to off we tried the low and high setting. These settings took away some of the lower black information.

I was happy to see that we didn´t experience the extreme picture problems caused by the dvd-player at the previous shootout, where the Marantz dvd delivered huge CUE-problems plus what I believe was deinterlacing issues. We found no "scaling" problems and diagonals were smooth. But we wasn't able to check with exactly the same material, for example Finding Nemo, so there is still room for more thorough tests. Pioneer DV59 do have slight CUE issues, which I know all to well from projections on Sony VW10HT. But on the material available at this demo (which was not that difficult material) the Pioneer CUE was hardly visible.

Screen door was visible, and some people find this more annoying than me. For me a non rainbow projector is essential and I can live with the screendoor a few years til I buy the perfect projector (hopefully). :-)

Anyway, we watched extracts from Monsters Inc, Lord of the ring, Robbie Williams concert shot on video plus an action movie I can't remember the name of. The concert looked bad on wide, difficult shots mainly due to very compressed pictures.

We focused a long while on the adaptive iris with Lord of the ring material. The following from chapter 28 was played about 30 times; the screen is completely black and then Gandalf lights a torch and brightens up the screen. Then we went back to black again. The picture starts off really, really black. Then when Gandalf lights the torch the black gets less black while the picture brightens up. This takes perhaps 0,5-1,0 second and is smooth and slow. You don't really see it if you don't concentrate and look at the black part of the picture (instead of the informative part of the image). Then we go from the partly very bright image to completely black. Then things move slower. During a few seconds (approx 3sec) the blackness dims from dark to
black. After having looked at this several times I have the feeling that the brightness is slightly compressed when the picture brightens up. I hope that this will get even better on the production units and of course when it's properly calibrated. Now the contrast was set to high. But I do feel that for example BenQ 8700 HD+ projector has punchier colors and image. But the rainbows make it a non alternative for me.

Regards
Niklas
Storyboard Film & Television

Originally posted by EHUFF
Well, I'm off the fence. Tired of being tired I guess. I pre-ordered the HS51 from the AVS Forum Alliance Member on the top uper right hand corner of this page. The orange one.

FWIW, I was told I'm # 22 on thier pre-order list. Now I just have to hurry up and wait.

Congratulations! I guess you just couldn't resist that 6000:1 contrast ratio! And how nice not to have to worry about VB and FPN!
At #22 - what do you think your ETA is? Late November?
Hopefully SDE won't be an issue. If it turns out not to be - I may be very sorry I wasn't patient and waited for the arrival (and critiques) of the HS51. But - I'm tired too. It's stressfull deciding which / and then waiting for - a new projector. My 700 should arrive late next week (hopefully). Then there will be a reason to be tired - all that testing and calibrating ahead. Are we having fun yet?

A time constant of a second or so is weird. You'd think that if the thing identifies a dark frame, then zap, the iris would close down rapidly.

Storyboard,

When you say you see screendoor, can you tell me how far back you were from the screen? I am thinking of the sony with a 106" diag. screen and the seats 17 feet back (I don't like being close to a screen)

Larry

Originally posted by storyboard
Then we go from the partly very bright image to completely black. Then things move slower. During a few seconds (approx 3sec) the blackness dims from dark to black.

LOL! I can see it now... the upcoming complaints about HS51's iris latency effect or ILE. Personally, I'd still prefer SDE & ILE over RBE. :D

The screendoor doesn't sound too good. I'm going to buy the AE700, HS51, & 8700+. Then I'm going to properly converge all three so that there is no screendoor(700), great contrast and no rainbows (HS51), and punchy colors (Benq). :)

Noah wrote, "Can you tell if that's real sharpness that shows more image detail vs. perceived sharpness lent by visibility of the SD (which is high freq video noise)?"

Not yet. What I mean is that when I saw the projector, it appeared to be imae detail, but it could very well have been the illusion created by the screendoor. On future viewing, I'll really try to judge whether there is genuine softness being added by the Smoothscreen.

John said: "A time constant of a second or so is weird. You'd think that if the thing identifies a dark frame, then zap, the iris would close down rapidly."

Not a good plan if the frames keep switching back and forth between dark and light though. The iris apparently is nowhere near fast enough to handle that.

Storyboard and others. From what you have said, screendoor is a definite factor with the HS5X. Was there any attempt at properly defocusing this unit? Cause maybe I missed that in one of the shootout recaps. It is my subjective belief that a careful measured defocus does not negatively affect the percepted image. And if a defocus was not attempted then I'd love to see a post which describes the SDE perceived after adjustment.

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Congratulations! I guess you just couldn't resist that 6000:1 contrast ratio! And how nice not to have to worry about VB and FPN!

Thanks for the words John. Your right, that review from WSR and Darin's pre-order pushed me over. Nice to share the excitement. Congrats on your 700.

At #22 - what do you think your ETA is? Late November?

I'm not sure when. My rep seemed to think mid to late November, but warned me that he's been in the business for 7 years and Sony always seems to ship late. So, I'll just be patient (while screaming inside) I guess. He told me they had 76 units allocated to them, but wasn't sure how many would be in the first shipment. I hope at least 22. :)

Hopefully SDE won't be an issue. If it turns out not to be - I may be very sorry I wasn't patient and waited for the arrival (and critiques) of the HS51.

I hope not too. I'm a believer in a very slight defocus to reduce SDE. I did it with my old Sony 10HT and was happy. I was bothered far more by it's low contrast and am really looking forward to the HS51.

Originally posted by reaper
why would you place it upside down on a shelf?

reap
I would guess, so you can have it near the ceiling so you don't blind people when they walk in front of it.

Originally posted by thaxx
I would guess, so you can have it near the ceiling so you don't blind people when they walk in front of it.


I think reaper was referring to the fact that with this projector's adjustments, you can have it near the ceiling on a shelf and still have it rightside up. You can even ceiling mount it without having to invert it.




Stew

widescreen review....

http://www.widescreenreview.com/attractions/eqrevfeature.html

How will this cropping issue affect things?? Will that mean that you get your projector zoom all set up for component input and when you switch to DVI the picture will be slightly smaller??? How annoying would that be?!?!

>>How will this cropping issue affect things?? Will that mean that you get your projector zoom all set up for component input and when you switch to DVI the picture will be slightly smaller??? How annoying would that be?!?!<<

This is exactly how it worked on the Sony HS10/20, but I was hoping that it would not be the case on the HS50/1 now that they've settled on the more standard 1280x720 resolution.

Originally posted by larsil
Storyboard,

When you say you see screendoor, can you tell me how far back you were from the screen? I am thinking of the sony with a 106" diag. screen and the seats 17 feet back (I don't like being close to a screen)

Larry

I didn't measure. It wasn't distracting to me at normal distance. But if I look for I can detect it. I don't think anybody should make a purchase decision without seing anything themselves. It's not the perfect projector. But it's amazing what you get for the money.

Regards
Niklas

Originally posted by dusk
Storyboard and others. From what you have said, screendoor is a definite factor with the HS5X. Was there any attempt at properly defocusing this unit?

No.

At the Stockholm shootout they were projecting an image approx 270 cm / 106" wide. First row of seating was, according to the staff, 400 cm / 157" from screen, ~= 1.5x viewing distance. SDE was quite visible to me from that distance. Second row of seating was approx another 120 cm / 47" further back ~= 1.9x viewing distance. From there SDE was just noticable to me and I'm sure that with some defocussing it would be a non-issue at that distance. As a comparison, I have a Sharp Matterhorn-DLP (1024x576) and I see the pixel structure at my normal seating distance of 1.6x.

From other non-smoothscreen/non-MLA LCDs I've seen I'd say the Sony is normal. The Hitachi hanging next to it had a lot less visible SDE but that pj was overall quite poorly setup so they may not have focussed it to the same level as the Sony.

lungan71
To my knowledge hs50 has MLA. However MLA as has been discussed is used to increase light output and not to hide SDE.
The person showing the projectors did take the Hitachi out of focus and then focused it so that the crowd was pleased. Still it was soft compared with hs50.

Until someone from the LCD industry can step forward and clear of idle chatter and eliminate speculation, I doubt anyone can be very confident in the reason why MLA has been employed, and how its employed. I take the MLA discussions with a grain of salt.

Until someone from the LCD industry can step forward and clear of idle chatter and eliminate speculation, I doubt anyone can be very confident in the reason why MLA has been employed, and how its employed. I take the MLA discussions with a grain of salt.

I don't agree. Many manufacturers of MLAs clearly state that their purpose in projectors is to increase brightness and efficiency and reduce heating of the polarizers. This is consistent with what Sony has stated regarding MLA in the VPL-HS20



Sony adds that the brightness boost allows them to increase the contrast of the projector.

The only question is whether there is an unintended benefit of MLA with respect to reducing screen door.

Originally posted by sfb
I don't agree. Many manufacturers of MLAs clearly state that their purpose in projectors is to increase brightness and efficiency and reduce heating of the polarizers. This is consistent with what Sony has stated regarding MLA in the VPL-HS20



Sony adds that the brightness boost allows them to increase the contrast of the projector.

The only question is whether there is an unintended benefit of MLA with respect to reducing screen door.
Well there you go. SOmething (someone?) from the industry has stated, and cleared my ignorance, regarding why MLA is/was developed. :D But, if the reason for doing this was to increase brightness (understood) and reduce heating of the polarizers, then the MLA panel must come well before the LC panels.

To me, MLA seems to do more with brightness uniformity than anything else. How it actually reduces unwanted heating of the polarizers (via pseudo-convection; solid lamp to air, and back to solid lens?) is interesting. Maybe we'll start to see Qualia-like heat dissipation techniques come into play.

EDIT: Just read that PDF and it meantions nothing about heat in regards to MLA. Only brightness is mentioned.

Projector manufacturers don't tout the reduction of polarizer heating-MLA manufacturers do. The heat is reduced by directing light away from the LCD grid and through the apertures.

By the way, apparently the VPL-HS10 did not have MLA or at least Sony didn't advertise it:

http://www.projectorcatalog.com/specs/projectors/sony/Sony_VPL-HS10_SpecSheet_HTRG.pdf

So maybe someone with both an hs10 and hs20 could do an experiment to see if one can acheive less screen door than the other?

Originally posted by sfb
Projector manufacturers don't tout the reduction of polarizer heating-MLA manufacturers do. The heat is reduced by directing light away from the LCD grid and through the apertures.
Curious as how the a section of the MLA panel can achieve this. In order for a MLA lens (single lens element of the MLA array) to focus light though the aperture and not on the electronics of the LCD grid would require, I would think, the lens to be on the same close-order size of the pixel's aperture.

A 0.7" HTPS 720P from Sony suggests (to me) the largest a pixel side-dimension can be, including electronics, is (0.7" = 17780 microns) / 720-pixels = 24-25 microns/pixel. Is this the size an an average MLA lens? I posted an image of an MLA array, but that lens size was about 60-microns across, I thought, but going back a reviewing the image
http://www.nsg.co.jp/lab/images/12-EML.jpg
leads me to believe that the 60-microns is actually the width of the image, which is about 4.5 lens-units across. This would seem to imply an MLA lens being <15-microns.

My curious nature and my pessimism would wonder exactly how well one could align an MLA lens (Lx,Ly) with an individual pixel (Px, Py) in order to achieve the desired effect. Is the size of the pixel opening (in which light passes through) referred to as 'aperture'? Can I then relate to Epson's information on aperture size to mean the pixel opening size (for light passage)?

It's posts like this one that make me realize just how dumb I am. I was lost at Curious.




Stew

You had me at curious, Ferret. You had me at Curious.

Blahaha...

reap

I have a 10HT hanging from the ceiling with a Chief mount. Anyone know if this would work with the HS51? Or do I need to invest in another mount?

Thanks,
Rich

Ok, evidentally I made a funny--unbeknowest to me.

Ferret -

Your latest post seems spot on. That would seem to be how MLA must work. It is definitely possible to acheive such alignment. This is no where near the precision of, say, the optics in the Hubble telescope. Of course, the Hubble cost $1.5B! It is amazing such optics can be had at this cost ...

I just thought Stew's response reminded me of that line in Jerry McGuire:

Jerry Maguire : I love you. You... complete me.
Dorothy : Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at "hello."

Hey, I didn't mean to imply that alignment would be impossible, but rather impractical considering we are talking mass-production assembly.

My curious nature and my pessimism would wonder exactly how well one could align an MLA lens (Lx,Ly) with an individual pixel (Px, Py) in order to achieve the desired effect.

If you can believe Sony's specs, they managed a 17% increase in brightness from the non MLA hs10 to the MLA hs20 (1200 vs 1400 ANSI lumens using the same 180 watt lamp.)

The aperture ratio on those LCD panels is around 50 percent, which would equal the greatest brightness boost using a perfectly efficient MLA. So in this case MLA didn't completely eliminate light hitting the nontransmissive portions of the panels. Whether that was by design (not overfocusing light through the aperture), MLA inefficiency, or an alignment limitation is unknown to me.

If the HS51 uses a 135 watt lamp and the HS20 uses a 180 watt lamp it would seem to me that the HS51 will not be as "bright", yes?

I would be upgrading from a Sony 10HT and need more brightness with my 120" diagonal Grayhawk screen.

I have a 10HT hanging from the ceiling with a Chief mount. Anyone know if this would work with the HS51? Or do I need to invest in another mount?

Rich:

I've been trying to find out the same thing. Chief doesn't have the HS51 in their database yet, and they list different mounts for the HT(10 - 12) series than the HS(10 & 20) series Sonys. However, the projector manuals list the same Sony mount (model 600) for all of these projectors.

Perhaps someone who went from a 10HT to an HS 10 or 20 can let us know if the same Chief mount worked for both. If it did, it will probably work for the 51 as well.

Pip

1200ANSI@700CR-180W
1400ANSI@1300CR-180W
800ANSI@6000CR

Not sure I would look at just the wattage rating of the lamp in determining how much less bright (more dim) the HS51 would be. There is a trade-off between brightness in terms of ANSI output and CR. Maybe a screen with a gain>1 is an option? Are you presently using filter(s), Big Picture? Also, how many hours are on your lamp (can you measure the current output)?

I just realized that the ANSI rating for the HS51 isn't on the Sony American website, nor in the manual (I could be blind). Anyone got a link to a Sony document that states how bright it is?

Originally posted by reaper
I just thought Stew's response reminded me of that line in Jerry McGuire:

Jerry Maguire : I love you. You... complete me.
Dorothy : Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at "hello."


;)

that's what I was going for.




Stew

If the HS51 uses a 135 watt lamp and the HS20 uses a 180 watt lamp it would seem to me that the HS51 will not be as "bright", yes?

The WSR test of the hs51 measured about 400 lumens when calibrated. If your screen is 16:9, then you have about 43 sq. ft to illuminate. The Grayhawk is rated as 0.95 gain so you would only be getting around 10 ft-lamberts, which is relatively low and only get lower as the lamp ages. You could boost the brightness of the projector at the expense of accurate grayscale tracking.

Ferret,

I use Cinema Black Off mode and change the bulb at around 900 hours. No filters or Smart calibration because I did not want to lose any brightness.

The 10HT actually has a 200W bulb so it seems that there is little hope that the HS51 with a 135W bulb is going to be brighter than the 10HT.

My number one criteria for upgrading is getting more Lumens on the screen, improved black level is number two.

Ideally I guess, a brighter LCD projector with 1920X1080 panels, a great CR and moderate cost is what we all REALLY want and is what I am leaning to holding out for.

I can live with the 10HT in the meantime. I paid $5,850 for it around 5 years ago and that was a bargain then. Who would have thought when we bought our 10HT's that the evolution in LCD projectors would come so far so fast. Way to go Sony. Now build me that 1920X1080 job, PLEASE.

Originally posted by Pip

Perhaps someone who went from a 10HT to an HS 10 or 20 can let us know if the same Chief mount worked for both. If it did, it will probably work for the 51 as well.

Pip

I did and they don't. At least the metal plate that is actually screwed onto the PJ and ultimately mounts the PJ to the ceiling mount is different. Mounting holes on the 10HT and HS20 are in totally different places. Although a very DIY-oriented friend asked why I didn't just drill new holes in the old metal plate!?!

I'm not trying to be a pedant, but given that mfrs. and MLA suppliers do tout MLA for what it does do, wouldn't they obviously have incentive to tout screendoor reduction as a benefit if it existed? It's not like MLA is brand new.

Originally posted by Stew4msu
;)
that's what I was going for.
Stew

Well, I guess there's at least 2 forum members that remember something about actual movies. Now back to our regularly scheduled test pattern evaluations :P~ hehe

reap

I had to look it up. FYI:

ped·ant Audio pronunciation of "pedant" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pdnt)
n.

1. One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
2. One who exhibits one's learning or scholarship ostentatiously.
3. Obsolete. A schoolmaster.

Ferret,

Have you looked at any of the links?! Several show pictures of the MLA behind the panel and chearly show how the lens converge the light to miss the grid.

Noah, be veddy, veddy quiet. I'm hunting ignorance. :D

Edit: I thought you meant links that someone else posted, Noah. I totally missed your post! Looking now ...

Originally posted by sfb
The WSR test of the hs51 measured about 400 lumens when calibrated. If your screen is 16:9, then you have about 43 sq. ft to illuminate. The Grayhawk is rated as 0.95 gain so you would only be getting around 10 ft-lamberts, which is relatively low and only get lower as the lamp ages. You could boost the brightness of the projector at the expense of accurate grayscale tracking.

MY VPL-W400Q had a 250 watt lamp and my HS-10 has a 180 watt lamp. Guess which one is brighter? It seems that Sony has steadily improved the efficiency of the light engines in their projectors over the years.

The question is: "Is the HS51 brighter than the 10HT?"

The question is: "Is the HS51 brighter than the 10HT?"

According to this review of the 10ht:

http://home.t-online.de/home/finzel/vw10_e.htm

it produces 400 lumens when calibrated and cinema black engaged, which is the same as the calibrated hs51. Without cinema black they measured 600 lumens.

sfb,

Thanks for the research. That kills the HS51 for me. If it is not brighter than the 10HT it doesn't work for me.

Hmm, I just found very confusing details for the HS50 in Switzerland on a paper that seems to come from Sony (seems so, at least). I found it on a web page of a swiss dealer with street prices so I assume I'm not allowed to post the link (although it's German and Swiss Francs :-) ...).

The paper says for the HS50: 1366x768, 1200 ANSI Lumen, 6000:1 CR, HDMI&DVI input and a 120W lamp (and others). The paper is dated from 08/2004.

Assuming that the paper really is from Sony it looks like they changed quite a lot on their way to the final product ...

Also funny to see that the HS50 is still not listed on the Sony web pages in Switzerland, Germany, Austria and the UK (or I missed it ...).

Regarding light output and if the projector is bright enough. We know from the WSR that the HS51 outputs between 650 - 400 lumens with various color. 400 is when calibrated.

I've just completed version 3 of my Screen and Lumens calculator. Enter your screen gain and desired Foot Lamberts to calculate the best screen size. Requires Microsoft Excel.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4569380#post4569380

MLA is my "you learn a new thing every day" lesson for today. From years ago, when I was a PJ n00b, I was under the assumption that MLA improved SDE. That assumption is obviously wrong.

Originally posted by sfb
The aperture ratio on those LCD panels is around 50 percent, which would equal the greatest brightness boost using a perfectly efficient MLA.
Or a 100% theoretical increase (from 50 to 100). It is interesting that it only went up 17% in that case.

--Darin

Is the throw for the 51 the same as the 10?

Originally posted by Utopia
Is the throw for the 51 the same as the 10?


No.




Stew

Utopia,

When I checked throw I concluded I would not have to move my 10. The range is way larger on the 51.

Originally posted by Big Picture
Utopia,

When I checked throw I concluded I would not have to move my 10. The range is way larger on the 51.


In 90% of the cases this is probably true, but if you are currently using the 10 at it's maximum distance than you might not be able to put the 51 in the same location.

For example a 126" screen on the 10 can be displayed from 16' - 19.3' back. The same screen on a 51 can be displayed from 12' - 18.5' back. In most cases you'll be fine, but if your 10 is 19' back, then you may be in trouble. Of course, these figures are from projectorcentral so there could be some leeway.



Stew

Originally posted by Big Picture
Ferret,

I use Cinema Black Off mode and change the bulb at around 900 hours. No filters or Smart calibration because I did not want to lose any brightness.

The 10HT actually has a 200W bulb so it seems that there is little hope that the HS51 with a 135W bulb is going to be brighter than the 10HT.

My number one criteria for upgrading is getting more Lumens on the screen, improved black level is number two.

Ideally I guess, a brighter LCD projector with 1920X1080 panels, a great CR and moderate cost is what we all REALLY want and is what I am leaning to holding out for.

I can live with the 10HT in the meantime. I paid $5,850 for it around 5 years ago and that was a bargain then. Who would have thought when we bought our 10HT's that the evolution in LCD projectors would come so far so fast. Way to go Sony. Now build me that 1920X1080 job, PLEASE.

Well on my starter HP vp6121, I found out that if I program the Cablevision Motorola HD box to 1080i the SD signal reads 1920 x 1080. This HP uses DLP but HP couldn't tell which one. I'm looking at the Sony and Panny, but I have to say the scaling on this for SD channels is very good. When I accidentally had cut it back to another resolution, 1200 x 768 or thereabouts, the SD looked lousy. Of course HD looks great but that's another story.

I still don't know how but I'm viewing the Sopranos and it looks just about DVD quality.

I look forward to seeing how the praised units stand up on the overall SD quality. Early remarks I've seen on AE700 didn't sound too good for SD.

Now how crazy is that?

I wouldn't imagine SD looknig good on much outside of a boob-tube. I don't nkow about anyone else but I would be buying this for the sake of stupid-definition TV, but HDTV. Sure, DVD comes to mind, but I rather be forward thinking and think about Blu-Ray. :)

Besides, I've got a 65" RPTV for SDTV and a worknig 7" CRT for DVD.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I wouldn't imagine SD looknig good on much outside of a boob-tube. I don't nkow about anyone else but I would be buying this for the sake of stupid-definition TV, but HDTV. Sure, DVD comes to mind, but I rather be forward thinking and think about Blu-Ray. :)

Besides, I've got a 65" RPTV for SDTV and a worknig 7" CRT for DVD.

Well that's too bad you have a monster of 65" in your place. But I don't even have a screen and sadly I don't even know what the DLP chip HP is using in their vp6121. But when I hit the button to show the resolution, it's showing a fine 1920 x 1080 for SD. It's not HD or native, granted, but it has a film like quality.

And HD, even waiting for my screen to arrive, holy mackrel, it is great.

I am so happy I got a HS20 over a year ago.

Question: what is the resolution of the hs51? I though it was only 1280*720 - which is not good for HDTV (not really good but nice).
And really sucks for HTPC.

BTW: 1368*768 is as low as you should go for an HTPC. More resolution the better.

F

Some disappointments I see with the HS51 vs. the HS20 is they dropped the remote controllable, power zoom and focus (the HS10 has this too) and the HS51 doesn't have a DVI input (whereas the HS20 has both an HDMI and DVI input) so if you want to connect both an HDTV STB via DVI/HDMI and a DVD player via DVI or HDMI you're talking an auxiliary DVI switcher at extra cost (e.g., $200+) and these are often problematic as you can read on AVSForum.

They added vertical lens shift to the HS51 which is great but it's manual.

If you want an HS51 projecting on a 2.35:1 ratio screen using standalone components (DVD player/HDTV STB, not a HTPC) you're out of luck to automate switching between 2.35:1, 16:9 and 4:3 sources with something like a Pronto remote due to the lack of remote controllable power functions for zoom and vertical lens shift. I wish Sony had charged a bit more for the HS51 and included remote controllable power zoom, focus and vertical lens shift. Considering I've already seen serious preorder discounts on the HS51 I would have been willing to pay the extra $500 or so to get these extra goodies and had a killer fully automated 2.35:1 setup.

I'm going to be really curious to see the HS51 but to me a low hour HS20 is looking like quite a bargain these days considering it has more pixels to resolve HDTV programming and has both HDMI and DVI inputs plus power zoom/focus and can be found pretty cheap.

I know. I could not it better.

Again if you dont do HTPC (video game and all the rest) or HDTV then a 1280*720 is great and all you need.

But if you want to do the above be warned - you want and need as much resolution as possible.

I guess the HS51 price wil be very low and is on the market for a good and cheap PJ - and the reviews so far seems to indicate a very good entry level PJ. Certainly a good choice. But the HDTV is not very good...

F

As for comparison, in Sweden the Hitachi TX100 price tag is $2428. The HS50 goes for $4571, so the Hitachi is an bargain at this rate. However, the HS20 goes for $3857 with more resolustion, less CR and more noice.

Still, HS50 is the one that counts, regardless of manual lens shift, zoom and focus. It also gives a 100" for less shooting range, which is good.
As for the HDMI only connection a good receiver like the Denon monster with DVI/HDMI switch is a good alternative for an solution. In my case will go for the Marantz 8500 receiver with DVI.

Only wish the HS50 was cheaper than it is:(

/Janne

Originally posted by romanesq
Well that's too bad you have a monster of 65" in your place. But I don't even have a screen and sadly I don't even know what the DLP chip HP is using in their vp6121. But when I hit the button to show the resolution, it's showing a fine 1920 x 1080 for SD. It's not HD or native, granted, but it has a film like quality.

And HD, even waiting for my screen to arrive, holy mackrel, it is great.
I think you missed my point. Four years ago when I got that 65" Mits I learned a harsh lesson: SDTV ain't much, and then a year ago with the introduction of HDTV in my home it furthered the concept that SDTV is even less than 'all that'. As such, I think unless you are kept in the dark about HDTV, this may not matter at all. But, once you have HDTV in your home, going back to SDTV on a large projected image makes it seem a lot less appealing.

My one and only caveat to this is the case of DTV (OTA) transmissions. I just cannot stand to watch SDTV on anything larger than that 65" Mits when its delivered to me from DirecTV. 480i SDTV is bad enough, but overly-compressed SDTV is just asking too much of anything other than a boob-tube. Of course, one's tolerances are not necessarily the same as the individual next to you. Thus, YMMV.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98

I'm going to be really curious to see the HS51 but to me a low hour HS20 is looking like quite a bargain these days considering it has more pixels to resolve HDTV programming and has both HDMI and DVI inputs plus power zoom/focus and can be found pretty cheap.

But I'd give up those features in a heartbeat to get the true 6000: 1 contrast ratio the HS51 has. Granted it would be nice to have everything. Maybe some day.