Pricing on used HS20s has already dropped a lot and pricing on new closeout HS20s is bound to drop a lot due to the introduction of the HS51.

The contrast ratio is great but we need to see what 1080i HDTV looks like on the HS51 vs. the HS20/HS10 with more pixels for those interested in HDTV.

HS50: regarding noise on the HS20 I disagree with this. I have the HS10 and have seen the HS20 and the picture is beautiful on both, anything but noisy. The only real problem is contrast ratio on killer dark scenes (e.g., XMen, horror movies).

What is the released date for this projector?

I just heard from my rep that there is bad news from Sony on the ETA.

"Sony has not recieved any of the HS51's in the United States yet. The shipment they had been expecting has been delayed until AT LEAST mid to late november. The entire first shipment into the United States is expected to be LESS THAN 50 projectors."

Given this information my rep has been instructed to not make any holiday season promises as they cannot confirm if they will have product to ship by that time.

While the news is bad. I REALLY appreciate my reps honesty in sharing this information.

EHUFF,


I received the same call today from one of my pre-orders. They also told me that they couldn't promise the projectors would be shipped before xmas. They tried to convince me to go with the Panny 700. She said that all of their people that saw both at CEDIA thought the Panny was better anyway and since it was cheaper and available, I should cancel my Sony order and get the Panny. I have a group of relatives coming in for Thanksgiving to see my new HT room and another group coming in the second week of December for an early xmas. I really don't know what to do now. I don't want to jump the gun and get a lesser projector, but since I've been waiting two years for my first projector and will have the room done in two weeks it's very hard to wait. Especially since our relatives only visit once every year or two. I'd hate to have them all come just to see a room with great sound and a 32" TV in it.



Stew

PS. Anyone have a projector they can lend me for two months?

Great! I started out researching the AE 700 and wound up justifying the money for the HS51. Now the HS51 will be dealyed until the Sharp XV2000 gets rave reviews and I'll start thinking how I can afford that. By then someone will post a sneak look at a 1080 LCD pj and ......

Well... Sony is holding true to the way they release their projectors. It happened the same way with the HS20 last year.
Two years ago, I ended up ordering my HS10 directly from Tokyo to get it by xmas.
Will just have to wait and see what happens. No time to "jump ship" yet.
Al

Its too bad that Sony pushed the release date back. I was about to give LCD another try too.

Bring on the 1920 x 1080 projectors (at reasonable cost ofcourse!)!!

According today to SonyStyle's data base they are still showing shipment on or about 31 Oct. They claim this is for Sony pre-order only. They indicate the rest of the market will receive distribution about two weeks later.

Who are we to believe?

Originally posted by Stew4msu
EHUFF,

I really don't know what to do now. I don't want to jump the gun and get a lesser projector, but since I've been waiting two years for my first projector and will have the room done in two weeks it's very hard to wait. Especially since our relatives only visit once every year or two. I'd hate to have them all come just to see a room with great sound and a 32" TV in it.
Stew
PS. Anyone have a projector they can lend me for two months?

I would buy the one that is available now and then sell it if you find it isn't exactly what you want later on. I think the AE700 once calibrated with filter etc. will be a fantastic projector. Plus you'll get around two months usage if the HS51 doesn't ship for a while. I'd pay a few hundred bucks to rent the AE700 and then sell it with a couple hundred hours on it.

Originally posted by Andrew P
Its too bad that Sony pushed the release date back. I was about to give LCD another try too.
I'm sure a 'done right' product delivered a little late (i.e. not late as in DWIN terms) is better than a broken product rushed to consumers, no?

Yeah, I'm sitting here deciding what to wait for. The Panny Ae700, cheaper and available sooner. Or wait for the VPL-HS5x, more expensive, but better 720p unit. Third option is to wait another 12-13 months for the new 1080p panels....

Anyway, I have a question about projection distance. This data was acquired from ProjectorCentral. According to the charts, this thing has a 19' max throw distance. I have a 20' x 13' living room and I want something around 120" screen size.

If I put this unit back to 17.6', that's almost to the max projector distance, less about 2' to get 120" (HDTV) screen size. Is there going to be enough light output based on the 850 lumens to fill the 120" screen at that distance?

Or would the PanyAE700 do a better job? I'm looking at the Pany AE700 chart, and it can be installed at max distance of about 41' away! Only problem is I have to use 1.3x zoom at same distance.

I have an HS10 18' back displaying on a 119" diagonal screen and there is plenty of brightness, it's even okay with ambient lighting (e.g., directed reading light).

Originally posted by Souki
Is there going to be enough light output based on the 850 lumens to fill the 120" screen at that distance?
The distance from the screen has very little to do with this. It is the image size that matters and not the throw. That is, unless you have a very smoky room :). People often confuse the light dropoff from unfocused light like from a light bulb with focused light. If you move the projector for the same screen size you have to change the zoom and then it is the image size that matters again.

As far as whether there is enough light, that depends on screen gain, ambient light, and preferences. I expect many people who can to place the HS51 not too far overhead and use a High Power screen for reasonably bright images, since this projector has good CR.

--Darin

According to the charts, this thing has a 19' max throw distance. Projectorcentral's max throw distance in their calculator is simply wrong, for this projector and others. According to the Sony manual, you can have a throw distance of about 30' with a 200" screen so the focus works at least that far.

Tough waiting, for sure. But, hopefully it has given Sony time to iron out the last few quirks seen on a couple of the pre-production models. (If that is what they were.)

Did anyone in Stockholm try to slightly defocus? Hopefully I'll se the projector tomorrow in Oslo at a show, I'll make sure to try it if they will allow me to...

@HS50: "Sweden the Hitachi TX100 price tag is $2428. The HS50 goes for $4571, so the Hitachi is an bargain at this rate. However, the HS20 goes for $3857 with more resolustion, less CR and more noice.
"
If those are your prices, consider importing. The TX100 is only 1599 Euros and the HS50 is only 2500 Euros. So consider importing from GErmany or Switzerland!

Well, if the shipments to the US are delayed, then hell, Europe won't be getting any until you already have the real 1080 pjs!!!!

nilsp: I would suggest that you check (and probably correct) the settings of the projector at the demonstration. At the shootout in Stockholm the adaptive iris was not even in auto mode (at friday 2pm). Have the widescreen review settings in the back of your head.

Regards
Niklas

i had my fingers crossed for a Halo 2 party at my house on the 9th. that was my goal date to have all my HT stuff ready. well, it looks like there is no way for this to happen as my dvd player is broke, HS51 not even in sony americas hands yet, and i'm missing 2 speakers that USPS has convinently lost. my new goal is to have everything in place and ready to go by Christmas with a HT grand opening showcasing ROTK:EE. i hope sony comes through in Nov.

eric

In Europe, a Sony retailer says that he gets the first delivery at the next week. I Hope that it's true!

Originally posted by tristartristan
In Europe, a Sony retailer says that he gets the first delivery at the next week. I Hope that it's true!

My dealer said i will get my HS50 by the end of next week, hopefully i'm among the first to order it :)
I have taken vacation for the whole next weekend Friday-Monday!

Congratulation! I'm very happy for you!

cool. Gives us reviews please, and details on how the SDE is.

Should have it in two weeks, also have an H30 for comparison.

Patients is a virtue, but only when measured on the ms scale. I am not harassing my dealer, because she cannot control when Sony delivers something to their warehouse--only Sony can control it.

I officially jumped off the Sony bandwagon today. I ordered the Panny. Since this is to be my first projector of any kind, I don't think I'll miss the better blacks that the Sony apparently delivers. The best part is that the $800 or so that I saved will help me out if I decide to upgrade in the near future. The second best part is that the projector shipped today and should be in my hands by Wednesday or Thursday of next week. That gives me over two weeks to play with it before my grand opening on the 19th of November.

Good luck everyone with their Sony's, I'm sure it will be a fantastic projector. Of course, I'm going to make it a point not to read any reviews on it and I'm going to try my hardest not to come back to this thread for fear of second guessing myself.



Stew

good luck Stew!

Stew, just remember to let your AE700 warm up (like a CRT) and then apply the flicker adjustment. :)

I told you, I wouldn't be coming back to this thread.




Stew

sonys site availability date has been changed to 31 Oct. i asked a live help person about it and she said the projector will be available on or about the 31st. i hope this isn't just for the sony site, cause who wants to pay MSRP?

Originally posted by ericeash
sonys site availability date has been changed to 31 Oct. i asked a live help person about it and she said the projector will be available on or about the 31st. i hope this isn't just for the sony site, cause who wants to pay MSRP?

Will it be a Trick or Treat?

Well, did she say on or about October 31st, or just the 31st?

Well, went to the Oslo Hifi Show (Norway) to see the HS50/51. I really liked the HS20, but decided to wait for the next generation...

DISAPPOINTED! I can't believe Sony even put if up on display. (They were showing LOTR:TTEE Ents attacking Eisengard and Troja.) The rep. even said it had been properly calibrated yesterday. Yeah, right!

I've never seen such colorless and washed out pictures, ever! When standing there, I started thinking: "It can't be this bad, it must be the movie, yeah, it was pretty grey in the movie theatre." Until I went to a different demo where they had an ActionOne MKII. Holy Moly, there WERE colors in those scenes, Aragorn did have "life" in his face, even in those scenes. (OK, so the ActionOne was in a 100% light controlled room.)

Not to mention the screen door. You gotta be kidding me! At 1.5 distance it was painfully obvious, not only on bright scenes. When I walked up close, you could see the fill factor severly lacking, couldn't say a percentage, but too low! They had a Infocus 4805 on a 4 meter wide (160") screen, was about 6 meters away. Almost no screendoor, brilliant colors. On the 2 meter Sony screen, it was worse at the same distance...

Unfortunately, the Panasonic was not anywhere to be seen. But the Epson 500 was there, lightyears ahead. (Newly reduced price, 5K NOK more than the Sony... Hmmm..)

All in all, a very sad experience. I had high hopes, but was totally turned off. However, I reserve final judgement until I see the final version. This was pre-production, the Sony rep. did confirm as much. I've never been bothered by screendoor, though, but this was not good. Don't see how they can improve that easily. (Believe it or not, I was in such a state of shock, I totally forgot to try defocussing slightly... Bummer.) So, waiting to see the final version, then I must check out the Panasonic. BTW, I did fiddle with the menu, tried to set it up according to the Widescreen Review test... Better than when we saw it first, but still severely lacking...)

Well, this screendoor thing keeps coming up with this unit.....Hopefully it is due to a preproduction unit. Time will tell.

Wow, it sounds as if the screen door is much much worse on the HS51 than it is on my Sony 10HT. I sit about 1.4 times back from my 10HT and only occasionally see it in some brighter sceens. I went to see an Sony HS20 and it's screen door effect was about half as noticable as my 10HT.

I know the resolution on the HS51 has been reduced slightly, but it couldn't really have such a dramatic negative impact on the screen door effect could it? Or are people just over-stating the problem?

Simple questions: Is the HS51's screen door worse or better than a Sony 10HT. Is it worse or better than the HS20? I need a reference point.

Also. . . One of the positives of my Sony 10HT has been the dynamic colors. It certainly has some punch. In fact LCDs in general have been known for good colors. But it sounds as if the HS51, for some strange reason, has muted colors -- thereby offering a very bland picture. That doesn't make any sense. Or was it just not calibrated right?

Also. . . One of the strong suites of the Sony 10HT has been high definition images. It offers a pretty good picture with its high resolution panels. The HS51's resolution is LOWER than my 10HT. But the HS51 has better contrast. So the question is. . . Does the better contrast of the HS51 offset the lower resolution? In other words. . . which projector will give me a better HD picture -- my 10HT or the new Sony HS51?

From Widescreen review:

I watched all five Star Wars movies and all of their special features on this projector. The newly released Star Wars Trilogy is one of the finest DVD releases available. Special features abound and are very educational. The movies themselves are classics. The image quality on the DVDs is superb. In Star Wars: Episode II––Attack Of The Clones, the detail observed in the city chase scenes was impressive. Color was especially vivid and brilliant on some of the backlit wall murals. Motion during the speeder chase was smooth and free from artifacts. In Star Wars: Episode IV––A New Hope, there were a lot of dark scenes aboard the Battlestar, and all of these exhibited good near-black detail and excellent contrast. The dogfight scenes and attack of the Battlestar contain lots of dark sky, plus significant fast motion. These scenes were rendered with deep blacks, smooth motion, and excellent detail. Some screen door was occasionally visible on the bright outdoor desert scenes, but I felt this was only a minor defect in an overall great image. In Star Wars: Episode V––The Empire Strikes Back, the swamp scenes near Yoda’s house showed excellent near-black detail and the murky look of the general area was preserved. The earlier scenes in the snow and ice were bright and conveyed the feeling of extreme cold.

I also watched Dark City and excerpts from Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World and The Lord Of The Rings. Only once or twice in all that viewing did I ever feel the need for a higher contrast ratio or better black level. Almost all of Dark City looked excellent. On virtually all material, this projector will never remind you that it is a fixed pixel device. I also watched THX 1138, which has a lot of bright, almost totally white scenes. You will see slight screen door more often than any limitation of black level is observed. All of my standard picture tests, such as the “Montage Of Images” on Video Essentials and the Sony DRC demo disc looked superb.

What kind of machine did he have compared to the one in Oslo?

nilsp, its interesting that you noticed the washed out colors. I noticed this on the AE700 and Yamaha DPX-510. I do not know why this is either. I did note that washed-out colors seemed to be more so on animated DVD's than on something like HDTV also viewed on both products.

Am I scared about this being the case on the HS51? Yes, but only because I oredered one blindly, which is a be no-no for me normally.

Originally posted by nilsp
Well, went to the Oslo Hifi Show (Norway) to see the HS50/51. I really liked the HS20, but decided to wait for the next generation...

DISAPPOINTED! I can't believe Sony even put if up on display. (They were showing LOTR:TTEE Ents attacking Eisengard and Troja.) The rep. even said it had been properly calibrated yesterday. Yeah, right!

I've never seen such colorless and washed out pictures, ever! When standing there, I started thinking: "It can't be this bad, it must be the movie, yeah, it was pretty grey in the movie theatre." Until I went to a different demo where they had an ActionOne MKII. Holy Moly, there WERE colors in those scenes, Aragorn did have "life" in his face, even in those scenes. (OK, so the ActionOne was in a 100% light controlled room.)

Not to mention the screen door. You gotta be kidding me! At 1.5 distance it was painfully obvious, not only on bright scenes. When I walked up close, you could see the fill factor severly lacking, couldn't say a percentage, but too low! They had a Infocus 4805 on a 4 meter wide (160") screen, was about 6 meters away. Almost no screendoor, brilliant colors. On the 2 meter Sony screen, it was worse at the same distance...

Unfortunately, the Panasonic was not anywhere to be seen. But the Epson 500 was there, lightyears ahead. (Newly reduced price, 5K NOK more than the Sony... Hmmm..)

All in all, a very sad experience. I had high hopes, but was totally turned off. However, I reserve final judgement until I see the final version. This was pre-production, the Sony rep. did confirm as much. I've never been bothered by screendoor, though, but this was not good. Don't see how they can improve that easily. (Believe it or not, I was in such a state of shock, I totally forgot to try defocussing slightly... Bummer.) So, waiting to see the final version, then I must check out the Panasonic. BTW, I did fiddle with the menu, tried to set it up according to the Widescreen Review test... Better than when we saw it first, but still severely lacking...)


Okay. . . so we have one vote that the new Sony HS51 is a piece of crap.

Originally posted by nilsp

I've never seen such colorless and washed out pictures, ever!

I'm hoping that it was badly set-up or had a fault, I just can't believe its that terrible.
Paul

Sorry for you guys in Norway, you should been visited the CC instead. Sounds like you did see an monday issue, must been a bad issue for Sony.

I would think that the HS51 screen door would be the same as the HS20.
The HS20 is 1386X788 pixels on a .87 TFT panel
The HS51 is 1280X720 pixels on a .73 TFT panel
I would say that the spacing between the pixels is the same on both.
I'm using a 133"diagonal Dalite contour Cinema Vision screen which is 1.3 gain. I don't have any screen door complaint's with my HS20 on this screen. Sitting is about 17' back.
I can't believe that Sony would do anything to increase the screen door on their new projector unless they want to sell more HS20's.
Al

I find it hard to believe the SDE on the HS51 is much worse than an HS10/HS20 based on the specs. I'm really looking forward to seeing an HS51 after reading all of this banter.

I've often wondered if this new 1280x720 panel isn't just the old 1386x768 panel, masked. Those dimensional numbers add fuel to the fire...

I've seen my HS20 at 1280x720, and while the screendoor increases some, it's a pretty minor difference. I doubt if anyone outside our anal little world would ever notice the difference. Unless they've really screwed the pooch here, I doubt the screendoor's any more noticable than the other 1280x720 LCDs (excepting the Panny models), given similar brightness.

Originally posted by Paul Butler
I'm hoping that it was badly set-up or had a fault, I just can't believe its that terrible.
Paul

I sincerely hope so, too! I'd decided on the HS50 based on the WS review, other positive feedback and just the fact it seemed a real upgrade from the HS20, so I was not prepared for what I saw earlier today.

But again, it was a pre-production unit, the conditions was far from ideal and a number of people might have been in the menus and messed it up. (Even if I tried a few modifications while there.) So I am still hopeful, can't wait to see a "real" demo of an actual production unit. The Sony guy said units would be in stores in a week or so.

I don't think that viewing a projector outside the ideal environment is giving anybody here real world info from which anyone should make a decision or even a general assumption about the performance of the HS51. Until I hear someone who has done a real defocus in a mildly lightcontrolled theater, I won't even begin to think of any other projector.
Between out of the box and full calibration with filters it's like night and day on many projectors. I do think we can take the real reviews such as WSR and consider it to at least approximate performance. Now if only I could get someone to defocus and report.

However this is nothing new to anyone who frequents this forum. There is always someone bashing something. It is always difficult to figure out who is trolling and/or what is really objective information. And then even if it is objective there are a million variables to consider which leads us back to the beginning. Chasing our tails.

To me its all pretty simple though Sony 51/50 provides the best value for dollar ratio out there period.

Originally posted by nilsp
DISAPPOINTED! I can't believe Sony even put if up on display.
Just to be sure, this wasn't a demo of their blackscreen or anything like that was it? Some people have given their impressions of this projector from a setup with lots of ambient light where the point was to show the screen off, which is the reason I ask. How much external ambient light was there?

--Darin

Nope, it was displayed on a screen already present in the meeting room at the hotel, ie. not a screen made for HT. There were some ambient light from windows and lights further back in the room where plasma displays were demoed. But I couldn't see any light directly on the screen, as I can in my basement if I turn the spotlights in the ceilng on. As mentioned, the lighting was a factor.

Please, I'm not bashing the HS50. I want it, it is #1 on my list. But Sony will have to do better than this to sell the numbers I'm sure they have in their budgets. Hopefully we'll have more reviews soon of actual setups around the world.

BTW, it is very quiet. VERY. The lensshift is a great feature, they had the machine way off center. You have to turn the controls quite a bit to move the lens, so accurately positioning it will be no problem. Backlit remote by the touch of a button.

I also went to Oslo to see this unit. I had very high hopes when I entered the Sony room, but 1 sec. after I was extremely dissapointed. The picture was the worst I have ever seen from a projector, and that includes ie. AE100. The projector was properly calibrated on friday, but when I saw it on Saturday, the picture was very blueish. I think the Sony rep. might did som adjustments on the HS50 after the calibration for some reason ...:confused:

Originally posted by anbjornk
The picture was the worst I have ever seen from a projector, and that includes ie. AE100.
I've seen the AE100 and the HS51 at CEDIA was in a whole different league. Sounds like a pretty bad setup.

--Darin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nilsp
[B]Well, went to the Oslo Hifi Show (Norway) to see the HS50/51. I really liked the HS20, but decided to wait for the next generation...

DISAPPOINTED! I can't believe Sony even put if up on display. (They were showing LOTR:TTEE Ents attacking Eisengard and Troja.) The rep. even said it had been properly calibrated yesterday. Yeah, right!



I was also at the show and the Sony was really really bad. I have seen the Panasonic 700, infocus 4805, Hitachi 100 and Benq 7800. All are lightyears ahead the sony. Worst screendoor I have seen in years. Did it have VB? I don't know because the screendoor was so bad it totally ruined the picture. This unit I wouldn't have put in to my home even if I got it for free. The Infocus 4805 on 4 meter screen was much better.
Shame on you Sony.

The hs50 looked good in Stockholm, Sweden, the other week.

I read that it started showing without the auto-iris not activated.

Perhaps the Sony hs50 had
no auto-iris activated , but who would notice with the ambient light
black level adjust perhaps not in the off position
perhaps dynamic mode instead of cinema1

I trust WSR and hs50 is a good projector. WSR mentioned SDE so it is an issue but with defocusing and no super close viewing it is in the game.

nilsp
Do you like to sit close to the screen in terms of sw?

anbjornk,

"The projector was properly calibrated on friday, but when I saw it on Saturday, the picture was very blueish."

Well, how did it look on Friday?

Is there a chance that the badly observed Sony was a pre-production unit not really intended for public exhibition?

Is 1.7 Width too close for this projector?

The SONY web site no longer says "pre order" it now says "add to cart".
I hope that means they're at least in stock at Sony's warehouse. Maybe it won't be long!

Originally posted by Ohlson
Perhaps the Sony hs50 had
no auto-iris activated , but who would notice with the ambient light?
With much ambient light people may want to disable the dynamic iris. Otherwise detail can be hard to see as it gets washed out by the light in the room. The best way to fight external ambient light is with lumens and the high on/off can actually be a detriment with other lights on. That is, activating the iris could make the images appear more washed out than not activating it. Lots of people with CRTs have experience with ambient light and how little it takes to ruin dark images.

--Darin

Yes
Considering there was ambient light I can see the projector failing to captivate since it is no light cannon. It is difficult to find info about what kind of lumens to expect with the iris in the off position, the lowest contrast ratio setting.

I also find it alarming that Image director 2 is not supplied with hs50 only with hs51. Can this really be true. That would make hs50 almost primitive in setup tweaking. I got this info from reading the manual that applies to both models.

Hi all. I work in the distributer's shipping department and I sent the wrong box to the rep in Oslo. I guess he didn't notice that I shipped him the "disney projector" only built to show special disney movie slides on children's bedroom ceilings.

Woops. Sorry.

The box with the hs51 went to widescreen magazine. They seemed to like the projector a lot.

Come on y'all. Does anyone really believe with all the great new sony's (lcd's, xs models, etc...) that Sony is really going to release an awful projector when the hs20 was so fantastic a machine? I have all ready ordered the hs51 on the basis of loving every Sony product I have owned and the great reports from members here who saw the demo at Cedia and the review from Widescreen. All of these reports said the hs51 was FAR AND ABOVE the best lcd projector yet. It will be my first projector and I can't wait to set it up in my new theater room.

By the way, I have seen all the new rear projector Sony's and they are stunning. To my eye, none of the other lcd's get close. So, of course, I am encouraged to imagine that the hs51 will also be stunning. Naive? Maybe. But I am not very technical, just a huge movie fan who's very excited about getting a first projector system.

Well, how did it look on Friday?

Well, I don't know really (didn't see it on friday). Some friends of mine helped the Sony folks calibrate the HS50, and they told me the picture was pretty bad on friday, even after they calibrated it, but atleast the picture was not blueish.

larsil: you're right on the money. I'm sure you're going to love your HS51. I've had a 400Q and currently an HS10 and both have been wonderful projectors for the money, incredible values. Sony has an excellent history with LCD projectors and I have no reason to believe they're going to blow it now with the HS51. I take Widescreen Review's opinions very seriously. I've been to their site in Temecula and they do serious technical reviews, not fluff like some other periodicals.

that Sony is really going to release an awful projector when the hs20 was so fantastic a machine?

no, but there are many different projectors and each projector is better for one thing or the other. If I remember correctly the 20 is brighter, so in a room with ambient light. So even though I believe in general projectors are getting better with each generation and I think the HS50/51 is better then 20, I would guess there might be set-ups where the 20 might look better then the 50

Luckily, I will set it up in a room with no windows. I am painting the walls a very dark blue and the ceiling and wall behind the screen, black.

Well, if the US is taking orders I'm hoping us Canadians will get to order them soon too. I too am a first time FPJ purchaser/user and would no doubt find quality in the VPL-HS51.

And yes, I'm buying blind as this thing is not even on display anywhere here. But after reading so much good stuff about this PJ, I'm going for it when it's available. It's brand loyalty. Just wish we didn't have to pay so much for it. The MSRP in Canada is the same for the HS20, at $4999!! That's about $4100 USD after the exchange. Ouch.

I've had good experiences with Sony's top-of-the-line 21" TV circa 91/92. The image is still amazing to this day. Colour/brightness calibration is the best it can be without professional help. The only disappointment is the size. It just looks silly now that I have a larger living room.

Given the fact that there's 'no complaint' in the VB department, I'm sure I can live with a little SDE. Which, at least, the image can be 'soften' up a bit to get rid of it. If it even bothers me at all.

I'm not too worried by the fact that it has a 1280x720 panel vs the 1386x788 panel. It's 1:1 for 720p. I think it'll be good for the next 5 years or so anyway. I often wonder if we'll go past 1080p at some point in time. The original resolution for Star Wars film is equivalent to 5000p after all.

And the fact that we're not getting the HS51 with the USB/RJ45 port for gamma calibration kinda confuses me. But then again, they seem to be releasing the HS50 all over the world, except for the US. Not sure what the reasoning is. But that doesn't matter. The PQ will look tremendous non-the-less. Anyone found out whether it's necessary to have the ImageDirectorII software to have good PQ? I thought all calibration's can be done with the user/service menu anyway?

Sony's are usually a bit more expensive than other brands. I know there are a lot of Sony bashers out there. But to me (guy who has to live with the purchase), I think the price is justified. Especially if you can get them on a sale price, :D

Originally posted by ay221
Is 1.7 Width too close for this projector?

Why, that depends on how good your vision is at 1.7 feet away. :rolleyes:

Souki, you really echo my feelings. i still have a 15 year old 32 inch xbr that we use in the den that has the most beautiful picture quality. It has NEVER had a problem. I also have the original high end Sony dvd player, the dvp-S7000 and it also has never had a problem and to this day, is a fantastic dvd player. I also just sold my eight year old sony 53 inch rear projector (to be replaced by the HS51) and the guy who bought it was totally impressed with the image on this set. My daughter has my 14 year old 20 inch sony xbr tv in her room and it also is still in beautiful shape. What in the world can people possibly bash sony about. If you spend a little more and get their higher end products, you save much money in the long run because you get to use them for years and years.

Originally posted by Souki
Why, that depends on how good your vision is at 1.7 feet away. :rolleyes:

LOL, meaning 1.7 screen width. My vision ain't the best.

This might be a dumb question, but is the sony hs51 power cord removable, and if it is, what kind of connector is needed for it? Is it the same prong type as a computer? meaning I could use this one

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=19&pcount=&Product_Id=16260

go ahead laugh at me.

Page 62 (PDF) should it to be a standard removable power socket (for cord) just like the one you use on your PC and monitor.

Excellent. Thanks.

hmm, just took a look at the pdf for the panny 700, they use a special plug. I'm 90% leaning towards the sony though.

Originally posted by ay221
LOL, meaning 1.7 screen width. My vision ain't the best.

LOL, sorry, I meant "depending on how your vision is like at 1.7 screen width away". :D I don't have 20/20 vision, so I'll probably be happy at 1.3x-1.5x screen width, :)

Too bad there's no pattern one can just print out and stick on a wall to check out SDE by standing back a few feets away. I guess you could print out a full page colour picture and lay down a grid of lines about one pixel thick spaced out about 3" x 3". This might not be accurate, but may give you an estimate of how far you could sit without seeing obvious SDE.

Given the fact that there's 'no complaint' in the VB department, I'm sure I can live with a little SDE. Which, at least, the image can be 'soften' up a bit to get rid of it. If it even bothers me at all.

I saw VB on the HS50, alot more than on the HS10 which is 99% VB free.

Originally posted by anbjornk
I saw VB on the HS50, alot more than on the HS10 which is 99% VB free.

Interesting. Just so we know you're not pulling our legs. Please provide details like setup, location of demo projector, connection used, source material you saw VB in, and how severe it was. Also whether you saw any SDE (provide screen size if possible), and what distance did it disappear for you. I'm sure people who are thinking of buying this projector would like to know.

Also, how did you come up with that "99% VB free" figure for the HS10? For example, did you see 100 different HS10 and only saw 1 that had VB? I just find it hard to believe that Sony would make an inferior product after so many years of R&D since the HS10.

Interesting. Just so we know you're not pulling our legs. Please provide details like setup, location of demo projector, connection used, source material you saw VB in, and how severe it was. Also whether you saw any SDE (provide screen size if possible), and what distance did it disappear for you. I'm sure people who are thinking of buying this projector would like to know.

LOTR (dont remember which one) was on the screen, which was about 80".
The HS50 was connected to a Sony 999 dvd player via component (I think)
I was standing more than 2x away, and saw very annoying SDE. The VB was very faint, and only showed up i very bright scenes. It wouldnt be a dealbraker for me.

Also, how did you come up with that "99% VB free" figure for the HS10? For example, did you see 100 different HS10 and only saw 1 that had VB? I just find it hard to believe that Sony would make an inferior product after so many years of R&D since the HS10.

99% VB free means that I can't usually spot VB on my HS10, just once in a while. I have only seen my own HS10.

Originally posted by ay221
LOL, meaning 1.7 screen width. My vision ain't the best. I think you are right about at that line where some will be very happy and some will complain. If your vision is less than average then I'm thinking you will probably be fine, with maybe just a little defocusing helping.

--Darin

Originally posted by Souki
Too bad there's no pattern one can just print out and stick on a wall to check out SDE by standing back a few feets away.
Actually I made up some patterns to do exactly that. You can get a "key hole" view of them in this thread (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331804)). Unfortunately I do not have enough web space to publish the full size images.

Brent

okay, here's a quick "hey, i'm impatient question." if i could get the Epson 500 for a tad over the best price i could find on the HS51, and the Epson is immediately available, what projector would you go with, specifically, if you've seen both, which would you go with? i'm just impatient,

thanks,

eric

My opinion from seeing them both at CEDIA was that the HS51 was better than the 500. But again, viewing conditions were vastly different. Seemed to be that the contrast on the HS51 gave the image much more pop. I'd just be patient and wait for the HS51.

reap

Originally posted by Ohlson
The hs50 looked good in Stockholm, Sweden, the other week.

I read that it started showing without the auto-iris not activated.

Perhaps the Sony hs50 had
no auto-iris activated , but who would notice with the ambient light
black level adjust perhaps not in the off position
perhaps dynamic mode instead of cinema1

I trust WSR and hs50 is a good projector. WSR mentioned SDE so it is an issue but with defocusing and no super close viewing it is in the game.

nilsp
Do you like to sit close to the screen in terms of sw?

I activated the auto-iris and set the black level adjust to off. Didn't help much. Then tried various dynamic modes. Don't remember what their names were, but one was too blue, one was too red, one was just grey... Maybe som Infocus guy messed with the color menus when Sony weren't looking? ;)

I too believe it is a good projector. I just believe Sony should not have displayed the pre-prod model they had at hand. Again, waiting for more real world reviews.

Anyone out there know why Sony have opted for a chip that's just a quarter the area of the of the one used in their 10/11/12HT projectors?

Smaller chips = higher yield = more money in Sony's pocket.

Not sure what you mean by opted for a chip that's just a quarter the area. You do realize that the 12HT is OLD, right? If Sony measures their panel size the way that Epson does its diagonally across the panel. In this case I can see what you mean. This would undoubtedly be due to better manufacturing of the panels with dramatically smaller pixel-pitches, as well as less pixels.

I do not think they are doing anything different than any other panel manufacturer. If it can be done with a panel that is smaller then why not do it? Also, the 12HT requires 200W lamp for 1000 ANSI compared to 135W for 800 ANSI.

I would think its more of a case of technology progression as the 12HT is a two year old projector.

or sans adaptive iris, theoretical 1200 ANSI

Originally posted by reaper
My opinion from seeing them both at CEDIA was that the HS51 was better than the 500. But again, viewing conditions were vastly different. Seemed to be that the contrast on the HS51 gave the image much more pop. I'd just be patient and wait for the HS51.

reap

thanks reaper, i need all the help i can get waiting for this thing.

eric

my local soundtrack store is now carrying the epson cinema200+. How would you compare the screen door of this model versus the hs51? Cause I want to see if I can handle the sde.

ay221, your local soundtrack store doesn't demo/display the epson?

I haven't been there recently but they should or recently added the cinema200+ to their lineup according to the ad.

My question is, if I can handle the SDE on the 200+(will find out when I go there), will I be able to handle it also on the hs51. If the SDE is about the same, then I can handle it. I'm thinking I can with my 20/30 vision.

I am in the process of setting up the mounting location for my HS51 (whenever it arrives...) and want to place it for optimal picture quality. My screen is 106" diagnol and my room is 23' long, 15' wide 9' high. The projector will be ceiling mounted and my conduit and ceiling plug are about 15' back from the screen. In the Sony PDF users manual there is a lot information on installation, but my question is...does anyone know if the screen size they refer to in the manual is diagnol or screen width?

Bchav,

I've asked the same question and got a resounding, "I dunno". Many people guessed one way or another, but there was no definite answer to the question.

reaper

My sales rep emailed me and said Sony will give her a better eta on the HS51 on 11/11.
Looks like it will be pushed out to end of Nov to mid Dec.
My HS20 is looking so good sense I replaced the original lamp last week which had 650hrs on it. I may just cancel my order for now.
At about 200hrs on the original lamp, the picture started getting a green cast to it and loosing brightness. Could really see it on B&W video. With the new lamp, (taking a line from the movie brainstorm), the picture knocked my socks off.
Al

Originally posted by Bchav
I am in the process of setting up the mounting location for my HS51 (whenever it arrives...) and want to place it for optimal picture quality. My screen is 106" diagnol and my room is 23' long, 15' wide 9' high. The projector will be ceiling mounted and my conduit and ceiling plug are about 15' back from the screen. In the Sony PDF users manual there is a lot information on installation, but my question is...does anyone know if the screen size they refer to in the manual is diagnol or screen width?
Since the majority of screens are sold by diagonal size, and last year the resounding answer for the HS20 was diagonal, I'm going to say that the SS is a diagonal measure.

Using your 106" screen your min and max are 10.4' and 15.8'

Originally posted by blipszyc
Since the majority of screens are sold by diagonal size, and last year the resounding answer for the HS20 was diagonal, I'm going to say that the SS is a diagonal measure.

Using your 106" screen your min and max are 10.4' and 15.8'

Does anybody know, in general, if using the zoom affects picture quality at all? Does the image look any better putting the projector as close as possible (10.4 ft away on a 106" screen)? Or does it look better putting the projector as far back as possible (15.8 ft)? Or is the best image achieved somewhere inbetween? Isn't it true that the closer the projector is to the screen the brighter the image will be since the light source is closer?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on projector placement.

Originally posted by Bchav
In the Sony PDF users manual there is a lot information on installation, but my question is...does anyone know if the screen size they refer to in the manual is diagnol or screen width?

Bchav - the screen size (SS) referred to in the manual is the DIAGONAL in INCHES. However, be aware that when you plug the SS value into their formula on page 11 and do the calculation for min/max throw distance, the resulting answer is in MILLIMIETERS. I believe the HS10 and HS20 manuals had the same quirk.

Originally posted by ricwhite
Does anybody know, in general, if using the zoom affects picture quality at all? Does the image look any better putting the projector as close as possible (10.4 ft away on a 106" screen)? Or does it look better putting the projector as far back as possible (15.8 ft)? Or is the best image achieved somewhere inbetween? Isn't it true that the closer the projector is to the screen the brighter the image will be since the light source is closer?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on projector placement.

Easy answer. Imagine a flash light that allows you to focus the size of the light beam. Which would give you a brighter image. A narrow beam or a wide beam.

Or imagine your water hose at home with an adjustable nozzle. Given the same amount of water pressure, what would the water pressure be when the nozzle is fully open or partially closed.

Souki, you are wrong. The amount of light produced is the same no matter what zoom you use, and assuming the same size image means you get the same ft/l so the pic should be the same, obviously if you keep the projector stationary and zoom out to a bigger picture you get a bigger picture and so the light is spread more and therefor less bright

I can not tell how but I know that lenses have measured different light output depending on the the level of zoom used.

Hard to say which end this unit will work from, but I've measured better CR from both HS10 and HS20 when the units are zoomed to smallest image size (farther away from the screen for a given size), on the order of 10% difference between minimum and maximum zoom.

Originally posted by Ohlson
I can not tell how but I know that lenses have measured different light output depending on the the level of zoom used.
Um, I would think so also, but that would be because when using a physical zoom the are of projection changes--yet the area x ft-L yields about the same amount of light.

Sure, I can also imagine that the change in position of one optical element in reference to adjacent elements could produce different surface area changes on the optic's surface, and this can have a number of effects as a result. But, I doubt we are talking a significant change in light--has anyone conducted tests?

It would be very interesting to find that the delta across a lens' zoom range can change by, say, 25%, which could place the consequences in another projector product's ANSI rating arena.

No
I think there was both a cr change and a change in total light output. I think it was wm that noted this effect. I might have it backwards but you could check it up.

Thanks for all the responses...based on this, I plan on putting the projector close to ~15' back from the screen.

There will actually be a slight change in BOTH CR and total light output when zooming in or out to the max. How noticeable it is is dependent on the quality of the lens cluster and how big the lens is.

Think of it in this simple way. Although in general, for a FOCUSED beam, the inverse square law does not apply for lumen output, so an image should have the same lumen at the same size regardless of how far you're projecting it from, (within the 10ft-20ft range anyway) the light source still IS a bulb. To achieve the image onscreen, it is focused through the lens. At maximum zoom, i.e. biggest image at closest distance, you tend to gather/focus light over a larger total surface area of the lens cluster. At minimum zoom for the same image size at the furthest distance, you would use less of the total surface area of light gathering potential.

Conversely, if you zoom out so that the same size image is achieved from as far as possible, the reduction in light collecting area also tends to have a bit of an effect similar to a narrower iris/aperture setting which increases contrast.

It might be easiest to imagine in terms of photography lenses. When the lens is zoomed out, you get a wider field of view in the image, and the lens cluster gathers/focuses photons from this entire field of view. However when you zoom in you get a close-up with a very narrow field of view and photons are collected/focused from this much narrower angle. It's all about optics, and likewise as mentioned, differences will be more or less noticeable depending on the design of the PJ and quality of the lens group.

If I recall correctly, one of the issues involved with zoom and whether to place the projector closer or further away from the screen within the throw distance range had to do with how the lens interacted with the projected image.

In the case of the InFocus 7200, which had an issue with lens distortion at the outer portions of the image, placing the projector further away and zooming in focused the projected image through the middle portion of the lens, staying away from the outer portions, which were presumably causing the distortion.

If you think about a flashlight and how its beam hits a wall, you can either walk away from the wall to get a larger light coverage, or you can twist the head of the flashlight to spread out the light (zoom). So long as the lens characteristics do not change, the math for lumens and foot-lamberts doesn't change for the same size of image. If the lens diffracts more light in one of those instances, the diffraction could steal brightness (by essentially increasing the effective image size) and also decrease off-the-screen contrast ratio due to room reflections.

I see the logic in placing the projector towards the back of its throw distance range, thereby projecting the image through as little of the lens surface area as possible.

It also usually has the side benefit of getting the projector further away from the seating position, so any audible noise from the projector has less impact on the viewers.

Hello,

Actually there was an article in a German HT magazine a few months back.
They had tested several "older" projectors, placing them as far away from the screen as possible and the using the zoom. Doing so apparently gave them some sort of a "iris" effect that increased CR. Based on the different models they could see CR increase between 5-20%.
They also mentioned that using the same trick on a newer model with an iris didn't have any effect on the CR.

Cheers

Anthony

If I were guessing, I'd say that the "iris" effect is that the light is more directly "pushed" forward and therefore has less room to scatter. The scattering of light in unintended directions is bad for contrast ratio.

I was thinking about this today. A few small fissures had opened in the cloud canopy and the resulting light was extraordinarily directional. You could see a clearly definied "beam pattern". The ultimate opening in the clouds is obviously quite far from the sun and these clouds were particularly opaque and particularly low hanging.

Mark

My opinion on the zoom factor is that if you've got the space try not to use any zoom at all to avoid possible flaws with the zoom optics of a PJ.

Wouldn't the 'no zoom' position be the furthest back (i.e. 15.8' back for a 106" diag)?

Why not just say "zoomed-out" for smaller picture/ longer throw and "zoomed-in" for larger picture/ shorter throw? That way the terms somewhat relate to projector position.

As for the discussion about which is better- "zoomed-out" is better because you're using the center of the lens, which is the " sweet spot ". This gives you the least amount of geometric anomalies.

For the Qualia, the lens/feet calculations are X times screen width, so wouldn't it make sense that the tables for the HS-51 correspond to the same thing?

Dan

Originally posted by Bchav
I am in the process of setting up the mounting location for my HS51 (whenever it arrives...) and want to place it for optimal picture quality. My screen is 106" diagnol and my room is 23' long, 15' wide 9' high. The projector will be ceiling mounted and my conduit and ceiling plug are about 15' back from the screen. In the Sony PDF users manual there is a lot information on installation, but my question is...does anyone know if the screen size they refer to in the manual is diagnol or screen width?
Originally posted by reaper
Bchav,

I've asked the same question and got a resounding, "I dunno". Many people guessed one way or another, but there was no definite answer to the question.

reaper
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I emailed SONY about whether it is the screen width or diagonal measurement in the HS51 manual and here is their reply:

Response (Julia) - 11/03/2004 04:16 PM
Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding the VPL-HS51 projector.
It is the diagonal measurement. The shipping date of the projector is currently not known. However, you can place an online order for the projector and will be notified via e-mail when the item is shipped from our warehouse.

I'm starting to feel like those DWIN buyers from a couple of years ago. Two more weeks. hehe

Originally posted by TheFerret
I'm starting to feel like those DWIN buyers from a couple of years ago. Two more weeks. hehe
Yep. And if this pushes too far out (like December) I would expect some people to cancel their orders and wait for CES.

--Darin

Wait for CES 2008, I hear the projectors will be really great.

Originally posted by ay221
Wait for CES 2008, I hear the projectors will be really great.
If Sony slips until December 2007, I will definitely be cancelling my order. :)

--Darin

Originally posted by Electron Mover
Originally posted by reaper
Bchav,

I've asked the same question and got a resounding, "I dunno". Many people guessed one way or another, but there was no definite answer to the question.

reaper
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I emailed SONY about whether it is the screen width or diagonal measurement in the HS51 manual and here is their reply:

Response (Julia) - 11/03/2004 04:16 PM
Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding the VPL-HS51 projector.
It is the diagonal measurement. The shipping date of the projector is currently not known. However, you can place an online order for the projector and will be notified via e-mail when the item is shipped from our warehouse.

Awesome. Nice to hear some official confirmation.

reap

Originally posted by reaper
Awesome. Nice to hear some official confirmation.
reap
Eh? That sounded like what one could trust in a DirecTV CSR reply and not someone that had real information to yield.

Hi All,

I'll tell you one thing. I had a long conversation with Bill Cushman (He wrote the Widescreen Magazine review on the HS51) and I am now more excited than ever to have mine on order. However long it takes, I am waiting. This projector is going to be a huge winner.

Larry

Care to elaborate on the discussion?

reap

You may be right... but at least it came from Sony and not 20 board members offering their opinion. Also, it agrees with what I want it to be, so I am willing to accept it as official! Muahaha

Larry, stop being a tease. Get Bill on here and let him spill some beans. Did you folks discuss the possible reasons for the delay in its release?

I'm hoping Sony are using the time to address the excessive overscan issue.

Also, another another call for Larry to give us the lowdown on his conversation with Mr Cushman :)
Paul

Until he/someone says that defocus works like a champ I'm still a bit wary about SDE. But I'll put up a third call for some comments from Cushman.

From what I know about Cushman, I trust is opinion and expertise greatly. Any more elaboration on what he said would be appreciated.

Back from some meetings.

OK, Here's the thing. Bill, who is a very generous guy, spent about an hour and a half on the phone with me. Since, this will be my first projector, Bill shared many things about the Sony and many things about projection in general (ceiling mounting, colors for walls, hdtv, etc...)

Since I am not a technical guy, I really wasn't interested in lots of data. What I did hear from Bill was that, after working with the pre-production HS51 he was sent, he was completely confident that this projector was going to impress and thrill me in a very big way. Bill also had written the Widescreen mag. review on the yamaha lpx 510 LCD projector (another glowing review for a great machine) and he said that the Sony and The Yamaha were the top two projectors I should consider. As for screen door, with my size screen (106" Diag.) and my sitting distance (17 feet) he didn't think I would really see any. The other main thing I kept hearing from Bill was him raving about the Sony. Now this guy has seen lots of projectors and he does know the technical side, so for him to absolutely love it this much, is good enough for me. As for why the delay? From what I surmised from our talk, it sounded like there were a few last tweaks that were needed to make sure the projector was manufactured at the highest quality level on a consistent basis.

Just let me end by saying that Bill had NOT ONE bad thing to say about the Sony and he assured me I am in for a huge pleasant surprise when I set up new theater room. Also, I am sorry I can't give you guys more specific technical info. Well, if you have any other questions, although I doubt I have much more to say, I will try to answer them.

Lastly, I am number two at the place I ordered from. Yippee!

larsil, to not take anything away from the HS51 I would imagine that most any current 720P projector would present a wow-factor to you to which you would be pleased. It is nice, though, that you confirmed my suspicions that the unit WSR tested was a pre-production unit. Let's hope Sony took what WSR had to offer in thier review with great interest AND is the reason for the perceived delay.

Originally posted by larsil
with my size screen (106" Diag.)

What type of screen? Brand and material. And, is it Bill who suggested it?

Originally posted by larsil
Back from some meetings.

OK, Here's the thing. Bill, who is a very generous guy, spent about an hour and a half on the phone with me. Since, this will be my first projector, Bill shared many things about the Sony and many things about projection in general (ceiling mounting, colors for walls, hdtv, etc...)

As for screen door, with my size screen (106" Diag.) and my sitting distance (17 feet) he didn't think I would really see any.

I too enjoy and respect Bill's reviews. However - 17 feet is pretty far back from a 106" screen (many people sit much closer). To say "he didn't think I would really see any" (SDE) just doesn't inspire much confidence in me. I would rather have had him say "at that distance you shouldn't see any" I guess we will see when the machine arrives. And hope for the best.

Two screen widths is not very attractive to me. I am currently enjoying 1.5x and could not passably get 2x unless I shrunk the screen down (ain't gonna happen).

Well, this is exactly what I was afraid of - that my report would cause more misunderstanding. In fact, Bill did say "at that distance you shouldn't see any" (concerning screen door) And I never asked if screen door would be visible if I sat closer than that. As far as choice of screen size, the 106" diag. is the size I chose for my room which is 10 feet wide by 20 feet long. A 106" (52" X 92") is perfect for both big size and still fitting speakers on each side of the screen) As for sitting back 17 feet, that is also my choice because I hate sitting close to any screen. So this was not a technical decision, it has to do with where I am most comfortable. (at the movies, I sit very near the back of the theater)

I hope this helps.

larsil,

I have a HS51 on order and am also going with a 106" screen. I really am curious what screen material your going to use and if Bill is the one who suggested it. So far, I'm thinking of getting a dalite hi power.

EHUFF,

Previously, the da-lite hccv was recommended to me, but Bill did think that the high power was the best screen. My plan is to get the projector first. Right now, I have da-lite sending me samples of all their screen materials which I will test with the sony. Do you know if you can really test well with 6 inch squares of screen materials?

Larry

Heard somewhere that it's about two weeks till dealers have HS51's delivered to them. Supposedly this was direct info from someone that has met with Sony. Don't shoot the messenger...

Originally posted by dusk
Heard somewhere that it's about two weeks till dealers have HS51's delivered to them. Supposedly this was direct info from someone that has met with Sony. Don't shoot the messenger...

Hey Dusk, that didn't happen to be at Myer Emco, did it? I was in their shop out at Tysons a couple of weeks ago and they were bad mouthing the Sony projectors and trying to sell the enhanced definition Runcos. They were also suggesting that the HS51 would be a long time in coming.

If there's a place in DC to go see one of these other than M&E, I'd like to hear it. Thanks for the info, BTW.

i heard back from my dealer today that the sony's are pushed back but *should* be shipping this month. Nov. 11th is supposed to be the day that sony will get in touch with dealers to give them specifics on alloments and ship dates.

eric

How many of you would pay an extra c-note to get your order pushed to the frnot of the list?

not me. I can be patient and save the hundy.

Originally posted by larsil
Do you know if you can really test well with 6 inch squares of screen materials?

My experience is that it's kinda tough to get a good indication of final results with small sample swatches. It is fun to see how the different materials affect whites and blacks though. I also have some samples on the way, but have been directed by a friend here at work, who works with projection systems all the time, that "yes, yes, yes" the da-lite hi-power is the way to go. For best results the projector should be table mounted with this screen, but will still work okay if the projector is mounted above as low as possible.

Originally posted by larsil
So this was not a technical decision, it has to do with where I am most comfortable. (at the movies, I sit very near the back of the theater)

This preference could save you some serious money in home theater. Looks like the HS51 will be a great product for you. At that screen size in that room I think the High Power should be near the top of your list, although you may also find that you want to use a neutral density filter while the bulb is new. If you can go with pull-down, the Model B High Power goes up to 92" wide and has a very good price. I always pay extra for a black case and some extra drop at the top in case I want to pull the screen down further.

--Darin

Originally posted by TheFerret
How many of you would pay an extra c-note to get your order pushed to the frnot of the list?

i already offered, and got denied. i'll just have to settle for 8th.

eric

Originally posted by EHUFF
My experience is that it's kinda tough to get a good indication of final results with small sample swatches. It is fun to see how the different materials affect whites and blacks though. I also have some samples on the way, but have been directed by a friend here at work, who works with projection systems all the time, that "yes, yes, yes" the da-lite hi-power is the way to go. For best results the projector should be table mounted with this screen, but will still work okay if the projector is mounted above as low as possible.

would having a ceiling mount, with the center of the lens be 5 inches above the screen top be unaceptable for a high power(92" or 106")?

Eric, I offered just to get ahead of you. :D

For some of you not sure what screen to get there is something you can do if you have some boutique stores around you. I few months back a friend was looking for a screen for his SIM2 300. In my area a leather shop also had a small HT business with five rooms setup with el'cheapo to mucho-expensive projectors, each with a different screen.

I asked if it would be possible one slow morning to bring in my friend's projector and test it out on a couple of screens. They had no problem with this and were equally interested. Their best projector was a Marantz VP12-S1, then a Knoll (Infocus 7200), and then some lesser DLP and LCD stuff. Their best screen was a Vutec SilverStar (?), then a Stewart Firehawk, and down to some rudimentary screen product.

So, if you have a boutique shop near you ask them if you can bring in the projector and a DVD player and do a test. Try to shoot for a dead-center elevation setup or one similar to what you desire.

I am considering the HS51 as a replacement for my Z2.

Does anyone have any experience with Sony warranty repair service or service in general on their projectors?

Do they do it fast? Are they easy to contact?

leedees, someone had posted about getting a one-week turn-around service time from Sony when something was wrong with his HS10. It went to Texas, I think, for service. Out on Monday and back on Friday.

TheFerret, et all,

What kind of screen do you guys plan on using if you get this projector?
I currently own a 92" diagonal Digital Grey Goo screen gifted by Monkey_Man.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=445299

In another thread, it was pointed out that this might be a bit dim:

80"*45"=3600sqInch" = 25sqFt'

400lumens/25sqFt = 16 lumens/SqFt.

(16lumens/SqFt)*0.75 = 12lumens/sqFt

This calc assumes the gain of the Goo Screen is .75. Tryg suggested a Da-Lite high power screen to me. My current plan, if I go with this projector, is to use what I have and see how dim it looks. Then, possibly upgrade to the Da-Lite High Power by buying a 4:3 screen and re-screening my 16:9 frame.

Any thoughts? What type of t Lamberts do you guys hope for? Anyone read any measurements for lumens from the AE700? I wonder if it's brighter and would be better.

Although, I don't want to pick a projector to match my screen per se. I'd rather pick the proj I want and then change the screen down the road if necessary.

reap

reap, I will initially use the screen I currently have, which is a Draper M1300 100" NTSC screen on a Cineperm frame I bought from Daniel (AVS). Since its only 80" wide (will mask the 60" height down to 45" for a 16:9 within the screen's 4:3 native) I do not think brightness will be an issue for me in my light controlled bat cave.

Originally posted by ay221
would having a ceiling mount, with the center of the lens be 5 inches above the screen top be unaceptable for a high power(92" or 106")?

I believe the idea is to minimize the angle from eye to screen to projector as much as possible. The screen is retro-reflective, so it's designed to bounce the light back to the projection source.

Here's an explanation I just found with diagrams:

http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screenguide.html

And an article of how he's using a hi-power for cheap and even gives Jason Turk a plug:

http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screen.html

Originally posted by reaper
TheFerret, et all,

What kind of screen do you guys plan on using if you get this projector?reap

Stewart has repeatedly recommended a 119" FireHawk for the HS51 over the Studiotek 130 for my theater. I have no ambient light issues in a 19'x15' room with a 17'-9" throw.

I've created a spread sheet, based on the HS51 manual info, in Excel to determine screen size but don't know how to post it if anyone's interested.

And what are they basing their recommendation on, tylerdgr8? Have they seen & tested with a production HS51, or are they using a generalized set of assumptions derived from previous Sony models.

Originally posted by TheFerret
do not think brightness will be an issue for me in my light controlled bat cave.

So you're a ferret who has taken over a bat cave or are you co-habiting?

:D
ted

Well, the wife is batty. :D

Originally posted by tylerdgr8
Stewart has repeatedly recommended a 119" FireHawk for the HS51 over the Studiotek 130 for my theater. I have no ambient light issues in a 19'x15' room with a 17'-9" throw. I have a lot of respect for Stewart, but this is another case where I think they don't keep up on the latest news like some people here do and they end up giving bad advice. The reports I've seen are indicating maybe 400 lumens and if you decide to go with a color filter it will probably be even less, not even counting the lumens loss from the bulb with age. The Firehawk may be rated at 1.35, but even if it is that (I doubt it), it is only for one little spot and with the throw of the HS51 will probably drop off to 0.5 or so at the edges. With an average gain of maybe 0.9, that would be something like 8.5 ft-lamberts at 400 lumens. Between the Firehawk and the StudioTek 130 for this projector and screen size I would definitely recommend the StudioTek 130. I would probably recommend the High Power over that one in a lot of situations, but between the Firehawk and StudioTek 130 at that size I don't think the choice is that difficult.

And if Sony really does release their blackscreen by next summer I think that a lot of people will want to get one of those for the HS51.
Originally posted by reaper
What type of t Lamberts do you guys hope for?
Some people prefer 25 ft-lamberts, but I would say not less than 9 even for CRT people. In general, 12-25 depending on personal preference without ambient light. With ambient light it is another ballgame and some people really want the plasma look. I don't think I would be looking for over 50 even with ambient light.

--Darin

ProjectorCentral has the HS51 review up. ;)

Originally posted by newcomer
ProjectorCentral has the HS51 review up. ;)
I noticed that they didn't repeat what they have said in the past about high CR not really mattering unless you have a black room. I guess it would be a little bit too easy at this point to prove how false that is just by turning the high CR feature on and off.

As far as a scaler, I didn't really see anything in there about 720p or 1080i over component looking substandard and an HD-TIVO could be set to one of these for all sources. Also, a DVI switcher could be used with a Bravo D2 or other DVI DVD player to allow both HD-TIVO and the DVD player to go through the digital port. I doubt that most of us with HD-TIVOs or cable HD DVRs are watching many regular VCR tapes. A JVC D-Theater deck could be connected over component and since most of those tapes are 1080i I don't think there would be a problem. There is also the LG or Zenith DVB318 DVD player that can upscale to 720p or 1080i over component (thus avoiding the 480i and 480p issues with compontent).

For those opting for a scaler, I think the Lumagen scalers might be good alternatives to the iScan HD+. Especially if/when they really get the 1080p24sf mode working reliably and if the HS51 will play 24Hz film material at a multiple of 24Hz (and avoid judder from 60Hz with 24Hz material).

--Darin

ProjectorCentral has measured about 240 lumens brightness using the Sony HS51 projector in cinema black mode . I doubt if this is bright enough for my 103 inch diagonal high contrast 1.0 gain screen (less than 8 ft-Lambert).

I am pretty sure (reading the AVS thread of the Panasonic PT-AE700 and the user reviews at Projector Central) that the E700 has a brighter image, but unfortunately I have never seen a comparision in lumens output between these 2 projectors.

I know that it also depends at which settings the projectors are used, but I like a lumen output comparision when both projectors are used at maximum contrast and best gray scale settings.

Bas.

What was the AE700's measured ANSI brightness in its cinema-black equivalent mode?

Originally posted by larsil
EHUFF,

Previously, the da-lite hccv was recommended to me, but Bill did think that the high power was the best screen. My plan is to get the projector first. Right now, I have da-lite sending me samples of all their screen materials which I will test with the sony. Do you know if you can really test well with 6 inch squares of screen materials?

Larry

Larry,
I spent a LOT of time with a few other enthusiasts in my area with a bunch of samples - Stewart Firehawk, Grehawk, Silverstar and have had two screens in my HT - ending with a HiPower.

I can say that it is difficult to the point of impossible to really make heads or tails of what's best with samples. Got very confusing very quickly. Good luck with it! Maybe you'll fare better.

As far as ceiling mount and High Power - it works fine, especially if you keep the screen height close to the PJ height like you posted. The farther back you can place the PJ the better too. The idea is to keep the angle between PJ>screen>you as acute as possible. I've got 7'3" ceilings with both the PJ and screen within 6" of the ceiling and have excellent results with the High Power.

Of course, I've not seen a HS51, so can't vouch for that particular combo.

Gordon

What was the AE700's measured ANSI brightness in its cinema-black equivalent mode?
I have never read anywhere a measured lumens output of the PT-AE700 in whatever video mode (only the specified optimal maximal brightness of 1000 lumens). I hope anyone else has!

Bas.

I would imagine cinema black mode is far frmo the brightest mode of any projector.

I would imagine cinema black mode is far frmo the brightest mode of any projector.
I certainly agree with this, but when the HS51 cinema black mode output of 240 lumens is not giving me the required brightness (only 8 ft-Lambert on my 103 inch diagonal 1.0 gain high contrast screen which I find too dim) I don't think that the more expensive Sony HS51 (compared with the Panasonic AE700) is a good projector for my screen given the fact that I "can not" use the most optimal black level mode.
And that's too bad, because the contrast of 1:6000 is what I like most about the HS51.

That's why I really like to know the measured lumens output of the Panasonic projector in "cinema black mode".

Well, if its not giving you the required output then try the Canon SX50 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=465491) .

Interesting that they give a plug for the product they sell, dvdo. Would think an upcovert hdmi player would work good enough, and a switcher if you plan to hook up an hdtv receiver to it.

Originally posted by Bass
I certainly agree with this, but when the HS51 cinema black mode output of 240 lumens is not giving me the required brightness (only 8 ft-Lambert on my 103 inch diagonal 1.0 gain high contrast screen which I find too dim) I don't think that the more expensive Sony HS51 (compared with the Panasonic AE700) is a good projector for my screen given the fact that I "can not" use the most optimal black level mode.
And that's too bad, because the contrast of 1:6000 is what I like most about the HS51.

That's why I really like to know the measured lumens output of the Panasonic projector in "cinema black mode".

Note WSR measured their HS51 d65 calibrated at 400 lumens and 500 in high lamp mode

Also interesting is they state the vertical lens shift is a max of 50%. According to the manual diagram in Sony's pdf file is seemed to indicate it is 75%.

Well, hrmm... now I don't know what to think. I don't give a dang about the scaler for most sitiations since I can use an upconverting DVD player. But, there are still some sources I can't upconvert. One of the big reasons I want a projector is to play video games on it. I don't want to be looking at a crappy Xbox image because I don't want to dish out another grand for an external scaler.

Although, PC originally said that the 700 had a bad scaler. So, do we trust them now? And why do their lumen numbers differ so much from WSR?

Hrm, I was really leaning towards the HS51 but now I am starting to lean back to the 700 due to:

Possible scaling issues
Possible brightness issues
LOUDER operation than the 700 (What!?)
Higher price

reaper

Maybe the 240 is a type and meant 420.

Not a single word mentioned about SDE in the PC review :confused:

Brent

I find it slightly encouraging that they didn't notice any overscan or image shrinkage using the HDMI input (unlike Widescreen Review).

Originally posted by reaper
Well, hrmm... now I don't know what to think. I don't give a dang about the scaler for most sitiations since I can use an upconverting DVD player. But, there are still some sources I can't upconvert. One of the big reasons I want a projector is to play video games on it. I don't want to be looking at a crappy Xbox image because I don't want to dish out another grand for an external scaler.

Although, PC originally said that the 700 had a bad scaler. So, do we trust them now? And why do their lumen numbers differ so much from WSR?

Hrm, I was really leaning towards the HS51 but now I am starting to lean back to the 700 due to:

Possible scaling issues
Possible brightness issues
LOUDER operation than the 700 (What!?)
Higher price

reaper

I think that our need's are both about the same. I did a lot of search and I think I will end up with a Benq PE7800. Might be something to consider for you.

Just a tough

Thanks

Fred

Can't. Rainbows bother me. Thanks for the advice though.

My apology up front, I'm such an ass to criticize a free review but seeing all these guys freaking out here, i just can't....

Last 3 paragraphs are mainly selling DVDO iscan, too commerical. Better yet, the intoduction quoted it must be used with the DVDO iScan HD+ front end video processor for optimum performance results.
. [Edited:vb typo]
Come on guys....relax. Go get you PC review in local best buy but...wait for the german!, hee hee.

I've noticed a few questions regarding screen size, brightness, seating distance, etc. I've gradually built a spreadsheet over the past 3 years that performs many front projector related calculations and helps make the decisions easier. The spreadsheet contains calculations for screen size, screen brightness, recommended viewing distances (based on THX, SMPTE, and visual acuity standards), projector throw distances, seat locations, back row platform height calculation, and a few other goodies. Hopefully it will be of some use to others. Here's the link:

http://www.carltonbale.com/ht/calculator

BTW, I converted the diagonal feet/meters throw distance chart in the Sony manual to a more usable format. Based on the manual, the the throw distance to screen width ratios range from 1.31 to 2.09 (best case) or 1.35 to 2.03 (worst case). The numbers didn't perfectly match for all of the screen sizes in the table.

Is it possible that the unit that PC review was the same "test unit" as were shown on the shoout-out in Stockholm two weeks ago?

The reason I suspect this is the comments about noise levels, where he finds the Sony to be noisier than the Pana700.

It was reported that the unit used in Stockholm was around 27-28dB instead of the 24dB that is stated in the manual.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Well, if its not giving you the required output then try the Canon SX50 .

No, thank you; this 4:3, low contrast, high fan noise, presentation projector doesn't fit me!

In about a few days I have the opportunity to get a demonstration of a PT-AE700 which is filtered/calibrated by the "Cine4Home.de" guys. If this demo gives me the needed lumens output (hope they also have a 103 inch 1.0 gain screen) and the promised 1:2000 contrast then I will buy this one and be happy about the $600 I have saved compared with the HS51.

I was used to the picture quality of an uncalibrated Sanyo Z2 so I expect to be impressed much. If not, then I will be waiting a few months for a demo of the HS51.

Bass, you eliminated the HS51 because of lack of brightness, not me. I am only trying to offer you other options. If the SX50 is also eliminated because lack of contrast, then start a thread with your requirements and see if someone can find something that can match them.

I just found it funny that you consume your time on a product you already eliminated. :)

I am getting the feeling that Projector Central is spending about 45 minutes reviewing these projectors lately.

I'm only eliminating the Sony HS51 if it has indeed a brightness of 240 lumen when in Cinema Black-mode (then I need a higher gain screen and I don't like selling my current one). On the "Widescreen review" they were talking about 400 to 500 lumens (not 100 percent sure if the HS51 then uses "Cinema black mode" but a contrast ratio of 4300:1 sounds excellent) and that's OK for my 1.0 gain screen.

Too bad I have to wait for a few months before I could test the Sony in real life and that's why I first test the PT-AE700U.

Originally posted by Bass
I'm only eliminating the Sony HS51 if it has indeed a brightness of 240 lumen when in Cinema Black-mode (then I need a higher gain screen and I don't like selling my current one).

Keep in mind that a higher gain screen will diminish black levels. Using standard mode and your current screen may give the same results as Cinema Black mode on a high gain screen. Don't concentrate too much on having the theoretical "best" settings (aka Cinema Black mode) on the projector. Figure out what will make it look the best on your screen in your room. If Cinema Black to too dim, don't use it.

As long as you have light control in your room, I think you'll be fine with the HS-51 based on what I've seen of it.

The PC review does appear incomplete. You would think that when reviewing a LCD projector you would mention the presence or absence of SDE and VB. The review only commented on MIB sceen as a reference, Didn't he look at any other DVDs or HD content? What is his reference system?

It appeared the review was more of a plug for the scaler.

A few remarks on PJ Central's review:

The following are lumen measurements for a few projectors made by PJ Central and Widescreen Review:

InFocus 7200: PC: 709 - 850 WSR: 1136 - 1321
BenQ 8700: PC: 345 - 420 WSR: 320
Yamaha LPX-510: PC: 200 - 760 WSR: 315 - 933
Sony HS-51: PC: 240 WSR: 400

These comparisons use corresponding lamp/iris/picture mode settings. In general, PJ Centrals measurements are lower. This could be due to more hours on the lamps, sample variation, different measuring intruments, or different measurement techniques. The WSR measurments are with around 100 hours on the lamps. IMHO the WSR measurements are probably more accurate, but the PC numbers might be useful as an average over the useful life or the lamp.



originally posted by BJM
Not a single word mentioned about SDE in the PC review

If you read Evan's other high-res LCD reviews you will find that he is generally not very disturbed by SDE with these units, so it is not surprising that he didn't mention it.

I'm not knocking Projector Central or it's reviews. I think it's a very valuable site and service. But we ought to be careful about taking its numbers with scientific certainty.

Pip

so what's the take on the scaler issues? you guys believe them or do you think it is a mistake?

Scaling

PC:

The one significant weakness of the HS51 is in its scaling of standard definition material through the analog ports. For example, with a DVD source input via 480i or 480p through the component video port, there is an edge enhancement in the horizontal dimension that is not related to the sharpness control. This has the effect of imparting an artificial sharpness to the image which makes it appear decidedly more digital and less film-like. Once the signal is upscaled externally to 720p, bypassing the internal scaler, the artifact is eliminated and the picture is smooth and clean.

WSR:

Scaling picture quality and lack of artifacts was excellent in all modes

Quite a difference. I feel more inclined to believe WSR since PC made a mistake re the scaler on the 700 and the WSR review seems much more in depth

I emailed Evan, who wrote the projector central review, some questions. If he responds to me, i will post his answers here. As I said earlier, Bill Cushman, who wrote the Widescreen review, talked with me for way over an hour on the phone about the Sony and he raved about it. I don't know if Evan will respond, but I know I am much more inclined to trust people who are so willing to talk to you after they have written a review. Also, Bill's review was very, very in-depth where-as Evan's review was a much more superficial look at the Sony. Still, I have been appreciating the reviews on Evan's web site and I appreciate that he offers all of us the information.

...whatever, blah, blah, blah. I am still sticking to the Sony and I am confident I will love it as I have loved every Sony TV I have owned. In the display field, Panasonic and all the other companies, have never matched Sony's images to me eyes. (Geez, just go take a look at their new line of rear projector lcd's!)

After reading the widescreen review, I think I will go with the Sony. If i use a 92" screen with at least a 1.3 gain, I think I should be ok. Walls and ceiling will be a dark gray blue, but not black, and no outside light source. Also for sports games I can just use the high lamp.

I think I found a couple of errors with this Proj Central review. First the lens shift. According to the online manual:
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf

On page 19 it shows a lens shift of 100% screen height.

Also the comments about not being able to shelf mount it beyond 1.5 screen width is not correct either. From my calculations, you can shelf mount it above you up to 2x screen width.

So maybe the lumens and noise level is incorrect as well.

Well, Projector Central is still misleading people in the MSRP so how should anything be taken from their without a grain of salt?

I think if you compensate a little who cares if you have 4623:1 CR. Shoot 3000:1 wouldn't be so bad. A high gain screen does seem best with this unit(total guess) but I think everyone could compensate with all the different modes available with the PJ. Certainly most of my viewing when I care about great contrast will be at night in complete darkness. Maybe I won't have flat black walls but quoting Bill I think I will find the result acceptable.

Quote WSR Bill Cushman: Typical results at the screen in most rooms will be much lower, usually in the 50 to 100 range, but this is adequate for good image quality. Most people will not tolerate rooms with flat black walls and black carpet, but viewers in such rooms can achieve the full measured ANSI contrast.

As he says earlier "30:1 looks quite pleasing for most people". I think I can handle that. During the day I can use high lamp and be fine with reduced contrast. No worries.

Well I had emailed Evan about the review and he replied quickly saying he updated the review with the correct lens shift info. He mentioned he didn't know if his was a production model but said reviewers always prefer a production model.
Regarding the lumens...he stands by his figures.

30:1 looks pleasing to most people says nothing about the typical person building, or having built, dedicated home theaters in their home. Those day laborers going to see the matinee at the crappy cineplex could care less if they get >30:1 on their $179 27" boob-tube, but I bet the average person spending money on dedicated home theaters probably care a lot more than for 30:1.

And thus many here will get more than 30:1 in their given theater. But during the day if I even approached that then I'd be fine with performance. At night when I envelope the viewing area with a black curtain I think I can approximate Cushman's calibrated setup. I agree though 30:1 was OK in the recent past but a dedicated home theater should be better than what most people find acceptable.

I don't see "weak" internal scaling as a huge issue on a projector:

SDTV - heaven help you if you are using SD TV signals on any screen larger than 40". No scaler is going to improve that mess.

LaserDisk - C'mon, star wars is finally out on DVD... time to donate the LD player to the Technology Museum.

PS2, Xbox, GC - I've got a iScan HD and it doesn't improve these signals a whole lot. Yes, a little but it's not make it or break it. If you want top notch video game performance, go PC gaming.

DVD - Upscaling DVD players are cheap and a no brainer.

HDTV - Nothing needed here.

With the increase in WM9 and TS availability (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)... a HTPC's going to be the way to go for performance and ultimate flexibility in playback.

A little OT but can you recommend a good cheap upscaling player? I looked at upgrading my Pioneer 470 but the first model that does this is a wopping 1000 euro (over 2000 US$).

"PS2, Xbox, GC - I've got a iScan HD and it doesn't improve these signals a whole lot. Yes, a little but it's not make it or break it. If you want top notch video game performance, go PC gaming."

Do you mean that it does't improve the picture compared to the picture that is generated by whatever display device you are currently using when you send it the native 480 signal? Perhaps it is a huge improvement over sending the HS51 the native signal solely because it allows you to bypass the crappy internal scaler. The source image may not be improved much by the iScan changing it from480 to 720. But it allows you to prevent the HS51 from turning it into garbage. I don't see how you could comment on that w/o dealing with the proj first hand...


reap

Originally posted by ay221
Interesting that they give a plug for the product they sell, dvdo. Would think an upcovert hdmi player would work good enough, and a switcher if you plan to hook up an hdtv receiver to it.

+1 ;)

Originally posted by dusk
And thus many here will get more than 30:1 in their given theater. But during the day if I even approached that then I'd be fine with performance. At night when I envelope the viewing area with a black curtain I think I can approximate Cushman's calibrated setup. I agree though 30:1 was OK in the recent past but a dedicated home theater should be better than what most people find acceptable.
My point was that in reading the comment published was completely carried with no weight since I wasn't part of the clan that it was appropriate for.

Originally posted by reaper
Scaling

PC:

The one significant weakness of the HS51 is in its scaling of standard definition material through the analog ports. For example, with a DVD source input via 480i or 480p through the component video port, there is an edge enhancement in the horizontal dimension that is not related to the sharpness control. This has the effect of imparting an artificial sharpness to the image which makes it appear decidedly more digital and less film-like. Once the signal is upscaled externally to 720p, bypassing the internal scaler, the artifact is eliminated and the picture is smooth and clean.

I'm sorry, was Projector Central doing an HS51 review or a sales pitch for an external scaler? I couldn't tell. I found the review, for the most part, to be completely useless. It didn't offer much in the way of interesting or useful information. It felt more like an old episode of "This Old House" with Bob Villa pitching Craftsman tools ever 5 minutes! Besides, I'm upgrading from a 1HD, so I'm quite excited anyway.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I wouldn't even call the PC article a review. As the Sony does not need an outboard scaler to be used as intended there is absolutely no reason to attach one to do a review. If the reveiwer doesn't like the picture from the analog inputs that is what needs to be said.

Oddly enough the WSR said that scaling was excellent. The only complaint there was excessive overscan. Later in the WSR he says " The Component input had virtually perfect performance on 480i and 480p. There was no chroma delay. Chroma response and luma response were flawless. Some outlining was observed to the right of narrow vertical lines and was unaffected by the sharpness control. It was only rarely observed when watching standard program material." This actually sounds like the comment in the PC article. Later on the reviewer said they preferred the component inputs for DVD with the two players used, Bravo D1 to the HDMI and the YPbPr output of the Sony DVP-S9000ES.

All I can say is anyone who has read the WSR of this projector and then compares the PC article can clearly see a full review and a plug for an IScan.

Jim

Just heard from 888Camcorder...they just heard from their Sony rep...the HS51 will be shipping 12/1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!I'll have it a couple of days later!!!!
Merry Xmas!!!!!!!

Originally posted by reaper
Do you mean that it does't improve the picture compared to the picture that is generated by whatever display device you are currently using when you send it the native 480 signal? Perhaps it is a huge improvement over sending the HS51 the native signal solely because it allows you to bypass the crappy internal scaler. The source image may not be improved much by the iScan changing it from480 to 720. But it allows you to prevent the HS51 from turning it into garbage. I don't see how you could comment on that w/o dealing with the proj first hand...


reap

I was just giving my opinion based on my experience. I bought a iScanHD pretty much for improved PS2/GC/XBOX gaming on a Plasma. My Panasonic plasma has what I would call an average scaler. The iScan HD does better, but there's only so much it can do with the mediocre signal these consoles generate. It's a garbage-in, Garbage- out problem. The iScan does what it can, but in the end you're pretty much stuck with garbage... regardless of the display device. Xbox is the best of a bad lot.

Anyone in Europe that have this unit ordered? (HS-50 I think its called here)

Originally posted by ted1001
Anyone in Europe that have this unit ordered? (HS-50 I think its called here)

I do.

BTW, I noticed that the HS50 unlike the HS51 doesn't have an IEEE connection.
Why is that, and is it something I should care about?

So for you people buying this projector and have a ceiling mount. What kind of screen are you considering? a Draper M2500 that is supposed to be around a 2.1 or something like a Carada BW with a 1.4 magnification? Or some other type?

As you may have read in an earlier post, I've been recommended to get a Da-Lite Hi Power, even if ceiling mounting the projector. It's 2.8 gain when on the same side as normal (table mounted). Ceiling mounted it would be less gain of course. I'm going to get a less expensive model B pull down and if I like the results, I'll rip out the screen and tack it to a DIY frame. If I don't like the results, I'll sell the barely used Model B like new.

Originally posted by ted1001
Anyone in Europe that have this unit ordered? (HS-50 I think its called here) Yes, should have it in two weeks..

Two weeks? Is this a DWIN joke?

DWIN? Double Wise International Nogood?

No joke.

Originally posted by ay221
So for you people buying this projector and have a ceiling mount. What kind of screen are you considering? a Draper M2500 that is supposed to be around a 2.1 or something like a Carada BW with a 1.4 magnification? Or some other type?

I'll be getting a 123" diagonal Stewart FireHawk. I was choosing between the FireHawk and the Da-lite HCCV (high contrast cinema vision). I picked the FireHawk because of the slightly higher 1.35 gain (versus the 1.1 for HCCV) and slightly darker color. Absolute black level is very important to me and a gray screen is best for black blacks. I understand that some people would choose the Da-lite High Power because of the brighter image and better shadow (grayscale) detail. For me, absolute black looks too gray on high power screens and that easily ruled them out for me.

Originally posted by ay221
So for you people buying this projector and have a ceiling mount. What kind of screen are you considering?

I currently have a Studio Experience 1HD projecting on a Dalite HCCV 119" screen. It's just on the border of being dim when set to low lamp output. If the Sony HS51 (on order) is as bright or brighter in max contrast mode, I'll be happy with the screen.

However, if it is not as bright or brighter, I'll have some serious decisions to make. I hate to give up the size and move down to a 100" display. The 119" screen fits my room perfectly (18.5' x 29.5'), which gives a really nice "field of view". My screen is about 6" from the ceiling (7'6") and my projector will be ceiling mounted about 2' behind my sofa. Right now the 1HD is 2' in front of the sofa.

The only other problem I have with having purchased the Sony already is that my 1HD still has the original bulb (900hrs) and 3 sealed replacement bulbs. Heck, the bulbs are probably worth more than my projector! Hopefully that will make selling it easier when the time comes.

I have no idea when the HS51 will ship, and if I get i by X-mas I'll be both happy and amazed. I'll be glad to give my impressions of the setup when it's up and running. In the meantime, my 1HD is just fine.

Originally posted by ay221
So for you people buying this projector and have a ceiling mount. What kind of screen are you considering? a Draper M2500 that is supposed to be around a 2.1 or something like a Carada BW with a 1.4 magnification? Or some other type?

I'm looking at the 120" Carada 2.35:1 Criterion Brilliant White. That's not a ton of gain but I don't think I'll be trying to maximize the contrast ratio during the day so I'll run the machine at a different setting. Hopefully there's a way I can automate the settings I want via the User 1,2,3 presets so it's bright during the day and using the iris for max CR at night.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I'll be getting a 123" diagonal Stewart FireHawk. I was choosing between the FireHawk and the Da-lite HCCV (high contrast cinema vision). I picked the FireHawk because of the slightly higher 1.35 gain (versus the 1.1 for HCCV) and slightly darker color. Absolute black level is very important to me and a gray screen is best for black blacks. I understand that some people would choose the Da-lite High Power because of the brighter image and better shadow (grayscale) detail. For me, absolute black looks too gray on high power screens and that easily ruled them out for me.

Your avoiding the the high power screens because they lighten up the blacks? Or are you choosing the gray screen, cause the gray darkens the blacks more? Just asking cause I thought the blacks on the Sony would not need to be helped any. I am concerned about the low lumens report of this projector, so was thinking of a high gain but not to high if it lightens the blacks. Maybe the Carada BW. FIre Hawk is kind of steep for me.

Another update on Projector Central!
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news110804.htm

Originally posted by ay221
Another update on Projector Central!
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news110804.htm

Very positive update...

John (Ballentine), surprised to see you out of the AE700 threads and in this one. :)

Originally posted by ay221
You're avoiding the the high power screens because they lighten up the blacks? Or are you choosing the gray screen, cause the gray darkens the blacks more?

Yes and yes! Lighter blacks are a trade-off for high gain screens. Darker blacks are an advantage of gray screens. Of course, there are negatives to the FireHawk compared the High Power: lower gain and less shadow detail.

Just asking cause I thought the blacks on the Sony would not need to be helped any. I am concerned about the low lumens report of this projector, so was thinking of a high gain but not to high if it lightens the blacks. Maybe the Carada BW. FIre Hawk is kind of steep for me.

The "dark room" demo (as opposed to the black screen demo) by Sony at CEDIA of the HS-51 was on a FireHawk. They wouldn't have used it if there wasn't an improvement in blacks. The contrast ratio numbers are very impressive because of the auto iris, but absolute black level on the HS-51 is still improved by a gray screen. If inky blacks is the most important goal, the High Power is probably not the best screen.

Something else to consider is that Cinema Black mode on a High Power screen could (I of course can't verified this now!) give a very similar projected image to normal mode on a FireHawk screen. Cinema Black mode on a FireHawk will undoubtedly give the darkest absolute black level.

Hehe PJCentral continues to put their foot in their mouth:


As far as further comparison between the Sony HS51 and the Panasonic AE700 is concerned, we are working on two other projectors that feature the same 1280x720 LCD panels as these two units, which are the InFocus Screenplay 5000, the Hitachi PJTX100. My intent is to post overall comparative assessments of all of these units after we've had a chance to go through them all. It will be more efficient to address all of them at once.

Ok, so now Sony uses Epson LCD panels? :P

Originally posted by TheFerret
John (Ballentine), surprised to see you out of the AE700 threads and in this one. :)

Ground breaking units like this (and the Qualia) are very exciting. Impossible to stay away. If the HS-51 had a 2X lens (as does the 700) I would have sat on the fence a while longer until I could have test drove it (before pulling the trigger on the 700). I'm so pleased with the contrast improvement (in a direct A-B comparison) the 700 has over the 500 - that I can't even imagine how nice this unit's contrast must be. Can't wait to see it. And if it truly has no VB or FPN - I'm sure I'll be owning a Sony sooner than later.

Originally posted by Havocsi
Hehe PJCentral continues to put their foot in their mouth:
As far as further comparison between the Sony HS51 and the Panasonic AE700 is concerned, we are working on two other projectors that feature the same 1280x720 LCD panels as these two units, which are the InFocus Screenplay 5000, the Hitachi PJTX100. My intent is to post overall comparative assessments of all of these units after we've had a chance to go through them all. It will be more efficient to address all of them at once.
Ok, so now Sony uses Epson LCD panels? :P
Stop trusting what you read on Projector Central! Unless they somehow dismantled the pre-production unit they got for review, or that Sony has offered them some piece of information no one else could get their hands on, its rumor, like the misinformation PC says this product lists for (evidence of misinformation).

Of course, it could be the context in which PC meant just that its the same 720P panel format, and not that Sony is using the Epson panels. I would think the only way to really determine this it to tear apart an HS51 and have a look. Anyone game?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ok, so now Sony uses Epson LCD panels? :P

Stop trusting what you read on Projector Central! Unless they somehow dismantled the pre-production unit they got for review, or that Sony has offered them some piece of information no one else could get their hands on, its rumor, like the misinformation PC says this product lists for (evidence of misinformation).

Of course, it could be the context in which PC meant just that its the same 720P panel format, and not that Sony is using the Epson panels. I would think the only way to really determine this it to tear apart an HS51 and have a look. Anyone game?

I think Havocsi was kidding

As the bulb life winds down to 50% of its original brightness, will the high lamp setting start to have better blacks?

dusk, I missed the jest.

Originally posted by ay221
As the bulb life winds down to 50% of its original brightness, will the high lamp setting start to have better blacks?

Absolutely, especially after it explodes! Anyone had a catastrophic failure with their bulbs? MH bulbs tend to do that if they are too long in the tooth. I'd think that at 50%, the 'time to change out' had gone by some time ago.

I would be surprised someone has actual test data on AVS for brightness drop-off during the entire life of a lamp, let alone enough test data for a variety of lamps. And if the frequency of on/off can vary a given lifetime profile then that only adds to the complexity.

How many AVS members have had lamps explode compared to the number of lamp-based display devices owners?

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
Cinema Black mode on a FireHawk will undoubtedly give the darkest absolute black level.
And Cinema Black with an 8x neutral density filter on a Firehawk would give even darker blacks. ;)

Okay, the reason I am pointing this out is that you have to pay attention to your white level or the black level doesn't mean much, and a High Power with a regular neutral density filter could give just as low a black level as the Firehawk. So, those looking for inky blacks should not automatically dismiss the High Power. A possible problem I envision for people who go the Firehawk route is that they could end up being uphappy with the white level and then have to do something that hurts the actual CR. For instance, we may find that using a color filter increases the CR from the HS51, but decreases the lumens. With the already low lumens some Firehawk owners may find that it isn't worth it to use a filter like this because the images get too dim and so may end up with worse blacks in many images.

I saw the same issue with the Sharp 12k where going with a lower gain screen would mean that some people would not be happy with the highest contrast mode in the projector and so would end up with worse blacks than if they had used a higher gain screen and used a different mode in the projector. I'm expecting the HS51 to be a little brighter than the 12k in high contrast mode, so this shouldn't be as big a problem though.

At this point I really don't know the best screen and it depends on setup. I'm sure that many will be happy with the Firehawk. However, one thing to keep in mind is that the HS51 is not a very long throw projector. The Firehawk tends to hotspot with anything but long throws and I would estimate that the average gain of the Firehawk with an HS51 will probably not be more than about 0.8 to 0.9 (being maybe 1.2-1.3 in the center and 0.5 out towards the edges). This effect could be seen on the Firehawk at CEDIA where the lower left edge of the images was pretty dark, but they also had us viewing from very close and this made it even worse.

It is much easier to dim images that are too bright (a $15 neutral density filter will usually do the trick) than it is to brighten images that are too dim.

Of course, the High Power is retro-reflective and so the normal caveats still apply (such as ceiling mount will usually not give a lot of gain).

--Darin

I was still sitting on the fence between the HS51 and Panny 700 and now I'm leaning hard towards the Sony.

I just reread the entire PC review and I believe Evan also changed some of his verbage regarding lens shift. I believe Evan now says the HS51 has 150% vertical shift and 100% horizontal shift, but later states that you can only move the picture 50% one way or the other. I'm confused. I guess I should go back and look at the specs from Sony.

Full updated HS51 review from PC:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony_vpl-hs51.htm

I'm getting a little bit nervous. I have already ordered a Da-Lite 106" HCCV screen. If the light output is too low in Cinema Black mode, I guess I could run the projector on high?

Lonnie

lonniehansenjr,
You might still be able to change your order to the Cinema Vision screen. It is a Grey material with a 1.3 gain. It is the screen that I am using with my hs 20 and the blacks are very good.
Al

Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
I'm getting a little bit nervous. I have already ordered a Da-Lite 106" HCCV screen. If the light output is too low in Cinema Black mode, I guess I could run the projector on high?

Run the projector in the mode you think looks best! If you think Cinema Black is too dim, use a different mode. Don't worry about what theoretically gives the best picture. Once you get everything setup, trust your eyes.

Originally posted by TheFerret Of course, it could be the context in which PC meant just that its the same 720P panel format, and not that Sony is using the Epson panels. I would think the only way to really determine this it to tear apart an HS51 and have a look. Anyone game? [/B]

Not-taken jokes apart, you can count on germans tearing this baby apart once they get their hands on it :D

There has been a lot of focus on the PC review. Just wanted everyone to take another look at the WSR which is still available for viewing:

http://www.widescreenreview.com/attractions/eqrevfeature.html

Jim

Also those of you that have been following this thread from the start should remember:

Some say screendoor is visable from over 2 x screen width, HDTV doesn't look as good as on the HS20 as the new LCD fill factor is lower, this unit has only HDMI but no DVI. It probably not as bright as the HS20 due to the lower lamp wattage.

My examples are to remind you that almost every reviewer had some small negative / hot button but all gave the unit a great review overall.

ProjectorCentral updated their Sony report yet again. They got word from Sony on the ansi lumens:

As far as the lumen rating on this projector goes, the initial rating reported to us was 800 ANSI lumens. Sony just informed us that the official lumen rating as per ANSI standard has been changed to 1200. So we have updated our records on this accordingly. This change does not affect the measurements we took in the lab for the review.

Its like a three-way tug-of-war betweek correct color, maximum brightness, and maximum contrast.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what type of ceiling mount I should buy for the HS51?

I would also like some more opinions on the best type of screen for this projector. I have read that some of you recomend the Da Lite High Power for setups with the projector directly in front of the screen. Since my setup will be a ceiling mount, it does not sound like the high power would be a good choice for me. I have a read about Da Lite's Cinema Vision screens and they sound like they might be right for me. Any opinions would be greatly appreciatted.

Hereis a little more info on my setup. It will be in my basement with no windows. The walls are grey with grey carpet. I plan on buying a 106 or 110 inch screen and will be sitting about 10 feet from it.

Thanks!

bcolon, what is your environment like?

Originally posted by TheFerret
bcolon, what is your environment like?

My ceiling is drywall. The room is totally light controlled, but lights might be necessary at times. The ceiling mount will be about 13 fet from the screen. The seating will be about 1 foot back in a room that is 27x13. Did I miss anything?

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
Absolute black level is very important to me and a gray screen is best for black blacks. I understand that some people would choose the Da-lite High Power because of the brighter image and better shadow (grayscale) detail. For me, absolute black looks too gray on high power screens and that easily ruled them out for me.

I think this depends on the CR of the projector. Theoretically what you are saying is true but subjectively I have seen that it's not in every case.

I've seen darinp's Sharp 11k set up and he has a high power that is able to be pulled down in front of a firehawk. I was amazed that the blacks looked ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT between the two screens when the pj was running its high contrast mode.

On the other hand my AE300's blacks suffer terribly going from just BO cloth to the high power. The black level is so good on the 11K/12k that the high power screen does not subjectively hurt the black level. The HS51's black level should be close enough to the 12k that the same effect should be seen. If I end up getting the HS51 I'm definitely going with the high power screen and inky blacks are definitely important to me.

Brent

Darin wrote:


And Cinema Black with an 8x neutral density filter on a Firehawk would give even darker blacks.


Yes, but I don't think you'll enjoy the picture.

I've would strongly caution anyone from using a 8x density ND (same as 1.2 density ND) filter. The 8X/1.2 is a 4-photographic light stop change. It's really a huge amount of light loss. If you really need an ND start with a .3 (1-stop) and move up from there.

Also keep in mind that the light you're blocking gets converted to heat when you put the ND up (more light blocked = more heat). I'm not sure how the coatings on the projector lens will enjoy the increased temperature.

I.

Originally posted by Illya Friedman
Yes, but I don't think you'll enjoy the picture.

I think you completely missed the point, which I stated in the next sentence, "you have to pay attention to your white level or the black level doesn't mean much". I thought it was obvious that I was not recommending an 8x filter. Especially with the wink.

--Darin

Originally posted by bcolon
My ceiling is drywall. The room is totally light controlled, but lights might be necessary at times. The ceiling mount will be about 13 fet from the screen. The seating will be about 1 foot back in a room that is 27x13. Did I miss anything?
Yes, I was wondering if what the color of the walls/ceiling were, the floor treatment, etc.

Let's say you have an off-white of light-colored walls and matching carpet along with a white ceiling. Even minimal ambient light will completely trash a major portion of whatever CR you think you will get from any projector.

Hey Darin, your example of a few weeks ago about the two scenarios involving no ambient light vs. a 1-Lumen ambient light needs to be put into your .sig. I'm tired of re-typing it! LOL

Originally posted by bcolon
My ceiling is drywall. The room is totally light controlled, but lights might be necessary at times. The ceiling mount will be about 13 feet from the screen. The seating will be about 1 foot back in a room that is 27x13. Did I miss anything?

Try playing around with the screen calculator spreadsheet linked in my signature. For ceiling mount (which is what I use), look at the Da-lite HCCV and CV as well as the FireHawk. These are all great screens but there are others as well. It's good to play with the number a little bit to see the theoretical differences between screens.

Since most of the advantage of the High Power will be lost with a ceiling mount, it's probably not as attractive of an option.

How many our planning on buying Sony's $300 ceiling mount? It is sleek and height adjustable, but expensive. Can a chief mount be height adjustable too?

Not me. Instead, I will be building a hushbox for superior air filtration. This box will encompass its own mount.

Originally posted by BOBCAT
lonniehansenjr,
You might still be able to change your order to the Cinema Vision screen. It is a Grey material with a 1.3 gain. It is the screen that I am using with my hs 20 and the blacks are very good.
Al

I just recieved some sample material from Da-Lite and the Cinema Vision is a beige material with 1.3 gain. The HCCV (High contrast cinema vision) is grey with a 1.1 gain. If your screen is grey, are you sure your using the CV and not the HCCV?

The Chief is not exactly height adjustable, but you can easily set it to exactly the height you need using standard pipe or nipples. You can also run your cables throught the pipe to completely conceal them.

The Chief is very easily adjusted in all other directions, angle, pitch, yaw, etc. It aso offers a very easy quick disconnect which makes taking the projector down for filter cleaning much easier.

It's a bit bulkier than the Sony, but it is much sturdier and more stable. It's also quite a bit cheaper. Call AVS.

Pip

My friend just told me that Crutchfield is estimating backorders will be filled for the HS-51 on November 26th, up from November 15th a few days ago. If it is delivered by X-mas, I'll be shocked.

The attached picture show the color difference with CV and HCCV screen material as compared to white. A picture in this instance can explain far better than my wording. The pictuer shows a close up of about a quarter inch of material.

Hi EHUFF,
Yes, those photos are the color. The CV screen is a lite smooth grey as the photo shows without the white in it. Your flash or the light in the room most likely brought out the white hi-lites. The HCCV screen has more black in it. The point that I was trying to make is that the CV screen isn't white, it is a lite grey.
Al

anyone know if this will support 72Hz (and 75Hz)?

For those of you trying to get your mind off of the wait, try this (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/kittycat.php) and don't blame me if you cannot get it out of your head.

Hi All,
Just got off the phone with my dealer. She said that Sony will not be shipping until mid December, and that isn't even firm. This info came from her distributor. The dealers may only get 2 or 3 units each on the 1st shipment. This is about what happened when the HS20 started shipping.
Al

Are most people selecting ground shipping? Or is that more risk of shipping damage?

I had a projector sent by ground shipping (insured) without a problem.