Cool, just kicked in an order since the wait is gonna be awhile.

i heard the same thing from my dealer, dec. with only a few units. i really can't wait that long. i think i'm going to either pick up a panny 700 or epson 500.

How many want a free DVD for every week's delay? Say, "me".

I still need to add on my wire raceways, and then paint the room. Add entry way drapes. So no big rush for me. Just wanted to get in the queue.

Originally posted by ericeash
i heard the same thing from my dealer, dec. with only a few units. i really can't wait that long. i think i'm going to either pick up a panny 700 or epson 500.
At CEDIA I decided that I wanted an HS51 much more than an AE700, but with both the price difference and the delay I think it is perfectly reasonable for more people to switch. The old question about "Is the HS51 worth $x more than the AE700" has now changed to include a longer wait for a lot of people (at this point I'm wondering if they will hit volumes of HS51s this year). If I was projector-less and was ready to watch things there is a reasonable chance that I would switch and keep the price difference for a future upgrade or some other toy. I know I would be running numbers through my head like, "If I bought an AE700 now and sold it in 11 months for an AE900 it would likely cost me ..."

--Darin

I just wonder if it's really a delay. From CEDIA, it seemed like there was never any chance the projector was shipping soon. In fact, I was very surprised when there was chatter about October ship dates.

The "delay", though, does beg Darin's question: Is it worth waiting for? The answer is: Probably not. The next generation of LCD will offer the tantalizing possibility of 1080p as well as refinements of the magic of these dynamic iris projectors...

The Panasonic is real now. You can watch one. You can buy one for something in the low $2000s...

You can certainly move on from it whenever you wish and I'd bet you'll have little trouble getting half of what you paid. Alternatively, you can spend yet another $1000 for the Sony and then still face comparable depreciation.

I'm personally more interested in the Sony and circumstances allow me to wait. But anyone who wants to watch the Super Bowl on their projector might start considering a jump to the Panasonic.

One real big advantage of hs51/hs50 is no (or very little) VB. On some forums over here I hear VB all over with the ae700. The hs50 having "no" VB is one important parameter.

Why do you assume the auto-iris will be refined? I do not anticipate mechanical refinement. Could not a hs50 be improved with better software and be equal to a later product.

Epson will probably be first with auto-iris d5. That will cost you and there will be no ae900 or z4 this spring.

According to a person who contated Sony in Sweden were told that a big batch of HS50 were sent out from Belgium. This was november 9.

I hope the december dates only affects the HS51 units.

Hey, as long as there isn't any VB some would be happy enough. In fact, there has already been at least one person that sold their AE700 because of the VB issue that could not be completely resolved. So, if the Sony is no VB I think its still a very viable LCD solution. Of course, I like almost everyone else can get anti-hyped about the waiting game.

Darin,

I didn't get the chance to attend Cedia this year so I have a question for you on the HS51. How well does it handle the Castaway test compared to your Sharp 11k and your Qualia? We recently moved into a new house and I'm really debating if I want to hang my CRT and go through the calibration again.

Gary

Originally posted by GScott
I didn't get the chance to attend Cedia this year so I have a question for you on the HS51. How well does it handle the Castaway test compared to your Sharp 11k and your Qualia? We recently moved into a new house and I'm really debating if I want to hang my CRT and go through the calibration again.

They weren't demoing anything like this. My guess is that it would be close to the 11k and better than the Qualia in these blackout scenes (as far as blacks). If I get one this is definitely a scene that I will be testing on the HS51 though.

Could you please remind me what CRT you have. Is it an LC unit?

--Darin

hi everyone

i have just ordered the panny 700 (my first projector), all of you who has seen the sony hs50/51 side by side with the panny, what did you think was it THAT big of a difference in terms of punch and depth in the picture. because i can still order the hs50/51 instead of the panny but i wonder if its worth the extra money.

and like i said this is my first projector so i don't have allot of experience with projectors so i wonder if the difference in punch and depth is worth it for me, please post your opinions (i have tested the Z3, MT200, 4805, Z2 and then chose the panny 700)

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

For me, seing both the AE700 and the HS51 at the same time in a shootout there is no comparing of the two. The HS51 just blows the AE700 out of the water.

No VB, which is my biggest problem with LCD. I hate VB, it makes the image look awful. Then the HS51 really feels different with its own sony panels, the image feels more complete and more like a DLP picture than a LCD picture. I would say that the panels of the HS51 is its strongest point and not its contrast.

Then add to that a contrast of 6000:1, mesured by Widescreen review to 5800:1 as best and about 4000:1 in calibrated mode.

Have not seen hs51 nor Ae700 but coming from AE500, i promised my next LCD pj upgrade has to be VB-free (99.9%) or i'll ditch LCD for DLP. I been through hours of vb-tweaking over current AE500 and tried over every possible connections and setting, some sounds stupid yet silly but the somewhat dirty fainted backgroud can only be reduced...NO cure. But once you set it back to close to D65... the worthless VB is back to full strength. I have to use higher temperature mode, which seems to have higher CR by the way, to reduce VB. My veiwing materials are 90% HD and 10% HTPC DVD with DVI only connection. You have read these media are said to VB-minimized, yap..That's correct. But it's the darn panel, so darn sticky you can't get rid of it...

I once helped pal of mine to DVE-calibrate his HS20... danm, i wish my 500 has that clean white backgroud...:D . Now, If the sony is what it reported to be true... Excellent CR with VB-free, i am all for it.

Any word yet when the HS100 is due to come out. Is the only difference the 1080 panels?

Originally posted by ricwhite
Any word yet when the HS100 is due to come out. Is the only difference the 1080 panels?

Yes, they are using the same iris-technology, but will equip it with 1080p panels. Estimated time of shipping wil be same time next year, and est. price will be 4000US$.

Regards,
Tore K. - Fortune Teller

Originally posted by darinp2
Could you please remind me what CRT you have. Is it an LC unit?

--Darin

It's an XG110. No LC.

Tore, same time next year? Are we talking 2005 or 2006? :D

Originally posted by TheFerret
Tore, same time next year? Are we talking 2005 or 2006? :D

Well, since I'm about as predicatable as Sony when it comes to predicting launch dates for their new products. I'd say 2005 (1 year from now).

Regards,
Tore K.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Hey, as long as there isn't any VB some would be happy enough. In fact, there has already been at least one person that sold their AE700 because of the VB issue that could not be completely resolved. So, if the Sony is no VB I think its still a very viable LCD solution. Of course, I like almost everyone else can get anti-hyped about the waiting game.

It may be probable that there is no VB on the HS51 but are there enough units in the field to confirm this is so? Perhaps we should wait to make this judgment.

As far as waiting - Canadians are presented with the fact that the Panasonic is not yet available for retail, but the greater insult is that Panasonic is a privately held company and set their prices with a blind eye to the market. The AE500's MRSP was $4999 Cdn. the same as the HS20; the AE700's MRSP is $4499 which may not be that different from the HS51. So with a ship date soon the AE700 puts us only 2 months from CES and then perhaps the cycle begins again. I was on the Sony's side of the fence yet I wanted to compare the two and hoping to avoid the waiting cycle but with CES not so far off now I'm not so sure.
Sigh.

vacillating away,
ted

Originally posted by Ohlson
One real big advantage of hs51/hs50 is no (or very little) VB. On some forums over here I hear VB all over with the ae700. The hs50 having "no" VB is one important parameter.

Yes, that's fair.

Why do you assume the auto-iris will be refined? I do not anticipate mechanical refinement. Could not a hs50 be improved with better software and be equal to a later product.

It's a first generation product. I expect it to be refined in functionality.

Epson will probably be first with auto-iris d5. That will cost you and there will be no ae900 or z4 this spring.

Definitely true on the latter.

Mark

"Epson will probably be first with auto-iris d5. That will cost you "

Maybe, maybe not. If it's going to sell for more than the HS50, it needs to be visibly better.

I'm not sure better CR will be all that big of a selling point given WSR's take on the HS50's current CR performance.

I doubt the fill factor increase from D4 to D5 is going to make that much visible difference.

Probably and hopefully it will be brighter than the HS50, which will command more $, but that may be partially or completely offset by VB.

Originally posted by tvted
It may be probable that there is no VB on the HS51 but are there enough units in the field to confirm this is so? Perhaps we should wait to make this judgment.

As far as waiting - Canadians are presented with the fact that the Panasonic is not yet available for retail, but the greater insult is that Panasonic is a privately held company and set their prices with a blind eye to the market. The AE500's MRSP was $4999 Cdn. the same as the HS20; the AE700's MRSP is $4499 which may not be that different from the HS51. So with a ship date soon the AE700 puts us only 2 months from CES and then perhaps the cycle begins again. I was on the Sony's side of the fence yet I wanted to compare the two and hoping to avoid the waiting cycle but with CES not so far off now I'm not so sure.
Sigh.

vacillating away,
ted

I think they're available now from 2001.

Originally posted by emptychair
I think they're available now from 2001.



Thanks, but unfortunately at that enormously inflated price that Pan Canada insists these things are worth - exactly why I wanted to compare it to the HS51 which I doubt will be more than $1k Cdn extra which if the HS51 is all that has been said about it, then I believe it will be worth it. As I said though CES is just below the horizon.

At maybe $3k Cdn. I would take the AE700 and suffer the issues that it has

Something may happen though.;)

ted

Ted, projectors may be expensive, but speakers (made in Canada) are so much cheaper. Had I taken a drive up Interstate-75 a few years back, I could have saved +$1K ($2200-2300 vs 3500) on my Paradigms in Canada. But you are correct and Canada pricing for projectors is just nuts.

Well, paradigms are made in Canada. I don't know that all speakers are cheaper in canada...

Does it sound like a completely stupid idea to buy a HS51/HS50, and use a DIY Screen painted with roof paint (maximum non-gloss and 100% white=)?

The thing is that I can barely afford the HS50, so there is no money over for a real screen.

I thought maybe I could buy the Goo paint later.

Is it a day or night different between a "normal" screen and a white painted surface?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ted, projectors may be expensive, but speakers (made in Canada) are so much cheaper. Had I taken a drive up Interstate-75 a few years back, I could have saved +$1K ($2200-2300 vs 3500) on my Paradigms in Canada. But you are correct and Canada pricing for projectors is just nuts.

What? Am I supposed to feel sorry for you guys south of the 49th?:p
We just have the luck of having some pretty good speaker manufacturers up here. Perhaps we listen better.;)

If you should ever make it to Hogtown (TO for the young) drop by. I won't give you a Molson's or a Labatt's but something else might be on order.
What do they feed you networking furry guys anyway - nuts and berries?
baby mice?

ted

So, what would be the inport tariff if you to acquire one from the states?

Originally posted by TheFerret
So, what would be the inport tariff if you to acquire one from the states?

I'm sure I would save a bundle and it is an option I've considered. When the Sony and the Panasonic were shown at CEDIA I determined from the comments that I wanted to see both machines before a buy. As you know the Sony keeps getting pushed back and with CES looming I'm'a thinking that I might get caught into a wait cycle again - which I really don't want to do. But, I do want to see the Sony.

I really want a PJ with dynamic Iris- not because of the Iris but because of the dynamic gamma that is coupled with it. My familiarity with Broadcast cameras and exposure suggests to me that this might be the 'real' sleeper feature that if finessed properly will help with shadow and highlight detail. I only hope I can afford a Dynamic Irised/Gamma-ed(is that a word) LCOS or 3 chip DLP (1 chip hurts my head) someday.

Heck if I do buy stateside perhaps you can deliver it on one of your sojourns north:D.

ted
I mustn't take this seriously, I mustn't.

Originally posted by tvted

What do they feed you networking furry guys anyway - nuts and berries?
baby mice?

ferrets

Originally posted by dusk
What do they feed you networking furry guys anyway - nuts and berries?ferrets
Only Californian ferrets get to deal with fruits of nuts of the land.

Hey Hey! The HS50 is now being listed on some Japanese websites with the following phrase:

"( No puctual price till Nov 20 )"

What does that mean exactly? I assume it means that the pricing is not firm until Nov 20th.

reap

another web site that is holding a power buy has gotten a new update as of Nov. 15th. "Sony says end of November, blame dockworker labor talks."
so the units could be stuck til the dockworkers problems get fixed.

eric

Pr|cejapan has been stating this for several weeks. And delivery 1. december. They have been very early with delivery with the HS-10 and HS-20. Hence my guess is that their date is fairly accurate.

Yes, I'm also assuming they mean that their price isn't 100% certain before 20. november.

Ahh, I guess I didn't notice since it was at the bottom of their page.

reaper

Hello all. First post after lurking for over a year .... I'm ready to buy soon. Budget $2700 max

Don't laugh (too much) but I have been projecting a 10ft wide image on a white wall from 17 feet with a Canon LV-s2, LCD, 800x600, 1000 lumens, 350 contrast ratio, with some ambient light. It's pretty watchable to me, especially HD. I mainly want higher resolution & better deinterlacer for standard tv sports. I understand bad signal in = bad out but I want to improve it some. Lens shift is nice but I could do without it.

For personal reasons, I don't want a screen in my living room but I would be willing to paint.
I mainly want to watch HD sports and also standard TV sports (need good deinterlacer).
DLP is OK as long as 4x speed or higher. LCD is also fine.

The projectors I am considering are the Panny 700, Sony HS-51, Sony HS-20, and Optoma H57.
(Why isn't there an Infocus 5705 yet?)

General advice is welcomed --- but for this thread, will the Sony 51 be bright enough given my less than ideal conditions? Keep in mind, my 1000 lumen canon was bright enough for me.

The hs20 has a very good rep for deinterlacing and scaling from several threads. It seems hard to believe that the sony51 would take a step back. Should I be concerned about the deinterlacing on the 51?

My first choice is basically the sony51 unless you guys convince me I'm wasting my money and I need a brighter projector or a better deinterlacer.

Reaper: It sounds like you have done a lot of price research on the sony, could you pm me with the best deal you have found?

Thanks in advance.

My guess is that the Japanese seller won't post a price in USD due to fluctuating exchange rates -- no reason to commit to a USD price until the unit is available. Their site does give a price in Yen which you can convert to USD at today's rate. Add their fee and shipping on top of that and it starts looking a lot like powerbuy pricing.

I mentioned dock-workers a week or two ago. I didn't think to question the information. Are we talking about American dockworkers or Japanese dockworkers? I tried a quick search a week ago and couldn't find anything about issues on west-coast American dockworkers being a problem.

Maybe we should start a pool on when this projector will come out. My vote is early January.

Originally posted by 3-way
My guess is that the Japanese seller won't post a price in USD due to fluctuating exchange rates -- no reason to commit to a USD price until the unit is available. Their site does give a price in Yen which you can convert to USD at today's rate. Add their fee and shipping on top of that and it starts looking a lot like powerbuy pricing.


the exchange rate doesn't flucate enough to warrant that. the rate right now i think is 105/$1. i'll find out today as i need to go get some yen from the bank. is there going to be any difference between the hs51 and hs50 that is important. i have one on pre-order from the states, but since i live in japan, maybe japan will get the units available before the states.

eric, the big difference I think is the Ethernet port for which the Gamma control software is used on. I do not know if the USB port can handle this.

It is a scandal if Image director 2 can not be used on hs50. Please tell me that hs50 can use the gamma tweaking software.

I pre-ordered an HS51. I plan to run this primarily from my computer with DScaler and to watch movies off my server (TT 2.0), using an NVidia card (eVGA 6800 Ultra), which has two DVI outs and an S-Video out. I'm taking it on faith that Sony / NVidia have worked through the EDID issues (hope I'm not wrong!). Given that, is there a special DVI -> HDMI cable needed to run from the video card to the pj? I read something about the pin-out on graphics cards being different than the standard DVI pin-out, but haven't been able to find any additional information.

Also, is there any consensus on what to look for in a cable, either characteristics such as composition, shielding, etc., or a brand that represents high performance / good value?

TIA.

Brad

I spoke with a local sony home theater dealer today and they don't expect shipments of the HS51 until March 05 :( But they did have a Qualia :)

Don

Originally posted by eyedoc
I spoke with a local sony home theater dealer today and they don't expect shipments of the HS51 until March 05 :(
Maybe they didn't order any. :)

--Darin

January?

Sounds good

I'm taking it on faith that Sony / NVidia have worked through the EDID issues

I lost touch with Nvidia EDID issues for the last couple months, it could been resolved by now? after years of relunctanty to simply resolve this issue just like ATI did. well.... good luck, my regular 6800 doesn't like the panny Ae500U, it won't even boot if DVi is connected to Panny. I gave up long time ago, don't even bother to upgrade new drivers, tired of silly & meaningless tweaking and blue-screening. Pop back the 9800 pro. Bang! work like a charm. :D

You don't need special Cable, just DVI-D cable will do for HTPC. I used dual link DVI-I

Originally posted by Ohlson
It is a scandal if Image director 2 can not be used on hs50. Please tell me that hs50 can use the gamma tweaking software.

Well, shucks... We missed that one, didn't we? No USB port, no Ethernet port and NO INCLUDED CD-ROM with the HS50 pretty much clears that up. No Image Director tweaking in Europe. THANKS SONY!!! :mad:

Granted, not a mass market issue, but some of us HT folks absolutely want it, and expected it. Why, why oh why?

nilsp
Is there no service port an hs50 that can be used for communication. I mean the only thing needed is a way to send signals in and out of the projector. I refuse to give up hope!

Its always a wonder why Sony does things the way they do. I've never found logic in their decision-making process, and often rationale escapes the scene. For what reason they felt that non-USA customers would not be interested in the gamma software is interesting. Maybe they thought it was trivial, but that Americans are more prone to buying a hamburger when french fries are offered, too.

There is a 32-pin port on hs50. I still hope for ID 2 on hs50.

OK, just finished reading 53 pages of posts - that only took a day :)

Here are some comments in summary based on some questions/thoughts I saw posted that I wanted to chime in on.

reaper - yes, almost certain that the manual is referring to DIAG not width by the SS value. I agree it is completely confusing and I wondered the same thing.

Regarding mounts - I recommend the Chief mount. I have one now for the Sharp 10K and its great. What's really nice about it is that as you upgrade pjs in the future, assuming your new pj's throw can support it, you can simply by a rather inexpensive part of the mount for the pj and slide it into the existing Chief RPA universal ceiling mount. This is a HUGE plus for me. Think about how nice it would be to unscrew a few thumb screws, slide out your old pj and slide in the new one... Now at this point no one (including Chief) is certain whether you can use the existing Chief SLB (pj mount side) for the HS20. Considering Sony shows theor mount is the same for the HS51 as the HS20 I would not be surprised if it means the mount holes are the same. Either way if a new mount was needed Chief said it only takes them a few weeks to design and manufacturer them.

Regarding screen type - I think StudioTek 130 or the Firehawk will work very well with this pj. I have a 106" Firehawk and think for my personal tastes it is an ideal match for this pj. While it is true that the gray screen is not as important as it used to be for blacks (since the blacks are so excellent on the HS51), the main benefit often overlooked with the Firehawk is that it will do a much better job keeping reflected light off the screen. This results in higher real world, ansi contrast than I believe you can achieve from a the ST130. Unless of course you have excellent reflection control such as black/dark curtains/walls/flooring etc. In my case I have mostly white walls and ceilings so reflected light is quite high.

Regarding availability - as has been speculated, it would be great actually if it turns out that the delay is the result of some last minute tweaking to the pj rather then some logistical issue. At least there would then be a benefit from the delay (a more tightly tunred pj/firmware).

Can someone describe in detail what vertical banding is and how to spot it? Coming from a DLP world (Sharp 10K) I am unfamiliar with it, but apparently its historically been an issue for LCD (but not the HS51).

I am anxiously awaiting the HS51 as a possibly replacement for my Sharp 10K, which, BTW, I absolutely still love in every way. Every time I turn it on I ask myself why I would possibly want to upgrade it since the PQ is so great. The answer though is that if there is something out there better, than why not, of course :)

My currently plan is to see how the initial real-world usage/reviews go on the HS51 and to see what is also announced at CEDIA. If an auto IRIS DLP is announced that would be interesting, or if affordable 1080p DLPs are getting close, than I may wait for that.

Does anyone know how much tolerance is typically in the throw numbers that manfacturers provide?

I'm trying to fill a 106" diag Firehawk and reusing my existing Chief mount without relocating it is a top priority. However this looks like it will put me within just an inch or so of the maximum throw range.

For instance, by my best estimate the lens for the HS51 would be 185 5/8" from the screen. A Sony rep on the phone told me maximum throw for 106" is 186" which would be me just about a half inch within the maximum throw! Projector Central shows maximum throw for 106" as 15.7' which is 188.5". And lastly the Sony manual calculations after converting from MM to inches comes out to 189.5".

So assuming my estimated throw of 185 5/8" is correct, that means I'll be somewhere within 0.5-4" within the max throw range. If I'm off in my estimate I could potentially wind up being just outside of the maximum throw range by an inch or two, which I assume would mean the image would be a bit too large. Anyway, it would be nice to know if often there was an additional few inches great throw then speced for safe measure, if that is the case.

lovingdvd, vertical banding is observed when period columns of panel have their definition pronounced differently than the average column. Its appearance makes the lines separating rows (not individual rows, but every 10-50 rows, or something like that) appears noticeably different, and as such makes those multi-column collectively seem like a band.

Imagine it like someone took a photo, sent it through a basic shredder and then reassemble the picture.

I'm wondering what Sony's policy is regarding dead / stuck pixels. Hopefully it is a zero dead/stuck pixel policy.

Does anyone know what their policy is on the HS20? Although we won't know at this time what their policy is on the HS51, perhaps we can assume at least for now that the same policy on the HS20 will be in place for the HS51...

Does anyone have any pointers as to where I can find information/rumors about the HS100 that was mentioned earlier in this thread?

I'm currently living with a Sanyo PLC-XP21N that has served me well for several years. I don't think the HS51 is enough of a leap forward for me to justify the expense of a new projector, but if the HS100 is around the corner and will have true 1080p at under $5k, I would have to give it some serious consideration.

Originally posted by lovingdvd
I'm wondering what Sony's policy is regarding dead / stuck pixels. Hopefully it is a zero dead/stuck pixel policy.

Does anyone know what their policy is on the HS20? Although we won't know at this time what their policy is on the HS51, perhaps we can assume at least for now that the same policy on the HS20 will be in place for the HS51...

Not sure, but I can tell you my policy. If unit has dead pixels, unit goes back for exchange or money back.

What dealers will honor "your policy," EHUFF, allowing you to exchange a unit without some outrageous restocking fee or surcharge? I've not found one. The best I've found is one dealer who promised to open the box and to look for dead-fixed pixels--an inspection before shipping.

Gary

I believe Sony's policy is still the same as it has been (and similar to what other LCD project manufacturers offer) which are a certain number of bad pixels are expected in the manufacturing process but if they're in an objectionable part of the image (e.g., DEAD CENTER) then they'll exchange. There are quite a few sellers of projectors who will do a dead pixel examination on request prior to shipping.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
There are quite a few sellers of projectors who will do a dead pixel examination on request prior to shipping.

I think its great they are willing to do this. However I just don't get what the difference is between them opening it up themselves and checking, vs. having us open it and send it back with just an hour or two on the bulb. Personally I'm most comfortable knowing that my hands are the only ones that have touched the pj even if it means paying some additional shipping fees back and forth if there is an issue. That being said, I think a number of e-tailers advertise that they will take a pj back for a full refund as long as its only been a few days and no more than a few hours on the bulb. Nice insurance there as far as dead pixel checking goes.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/greg.hamilton/VPLHS51A.jpg

Anyone seen this before?? -gh

Projector People has a 7 day no-hassle return policy.

And that's excatly why I bought mine from them. Plus the fact that they are an AVS alliance member.

gh,
Nice drawing.
Sony's not that perceptive to create a remote with those features that everyone has wanted sense the HS10.
Al

Originally posted by BOBCAT
gh,
Nice drawing.
Sony's not that perceptive to create a remote with those features that everyone has wanted sense the HS10.
Al
Remote? When I first looked at the picture I thought it was a web-interface for the software. Anyone wonder why none of the reviewers of the pre-production units never posted any captures of this s/w? I did find it funny that Greg Hamilton blurred out the URL field, but the bottom right of the browser frame shows the image is on the Local Intranet. What network address does the HS51/20 use?

:) :) :) :)
Well the guy in the Orient has posted the price and mine is on order for delivery 1st December.

He has confirmed delivery for the 1st December at the latest and I am #1 on the list.
Whoopee

Originally posted by jasdat
:) :) :) :)
Well the guy in the Orient has posted the price and mine is on order for delivery 1st December.

I am also being told by 2 local dealers that they will have their first allocation the first week in December and they both spoke to their Sony reps today. The problem is they are all presold. I think the units are coming just not fast enough for me.

Originally posted by Greg Hamilton

(image of Web interface)
Anyone seen this before?? -gh

Greg, where did you get the image? Do you have an HS51?
Trey

Originally posted by TheFerret
Remote? When I first looked at the picture I thought it was a web-interface for the software. Anyone wonder why none of the reviewers of the pre-production units never posted any captures of this s/w? I did find it funny that Greg Hamilton blurred out the URL field, but the bottom right of the browser frame shows the image is on the Local Intranet. What network address does the HS51/20 use?

You can setup the HS51 to via the Setup/Network menu:

Obtain an IP address automatically (DHCP)
Specify and IP address

http://www3.sympatico.ca/greg.hamilton/VPLHS51B.jpg

If the Sony's would ship now I could enjoy it over the Thanksgiving holiday. Oh well, its not the only thing taking its sweet tmie to market. Ghost Recon 2 isn't arriving until early December, too.

Hopefully the ethernet port can be used to easily upload updated firmware and that Sony will make such upgrades readily available for DIY (field-upgradable).

Originally posted by Greg Hamilton
You can setup the HS51 to via the Setup/Network menu:

Obtain an IP address automatically (DHCP)
Specify and IP address


Hmmm... From the manual, page 42: "Network Settings (VPL-HS51 Only): You cannot change the network settings with this projector"... What does that mean? You cannot change it using the projector, but you can using the supplied software and a PC? It would be strange if you couldn't change the settings at all...

Originally posted by nilsp
Hmmm... From the manual, page 42: "Network Settings (VPL-HS51 Only): You cannot change the network settings with this projector"... What does that mean? You cannot change it using the projector, but you can using the supplied software and a PC? It would be strange if you couldn't change the settings at all... I think they are talking about the 'network' settings settings cannot be changed. And its not surprising that they can only be changed by use of their software as it may only communicate client-projector (acting as a server) using something like XML and as such not requiring something like a telnet or [t]ftp port for communications.

Originally posted by jasdat
:) :) :) :)
Well the guy in the Orient has posted the price and mine is on order for delivery 1st December.

Why is the Sony listed as HS-50 not HS-51? Is there a difference that makes that one a Japanese model?

HS51 is USA (or North America), and HS50 is everywhere else.

Do people think that the Long Throw Lens for the HS10/20 will be usable with the HS51???

Originally posted by TheFerret
If the Sony's would ship now I could enjoy it over the Thanksgiving holiday. Oh well, its not the only thing taking its sweet tmie to market. Ghost Recon 2 isn't arriving until early December, too.

Hey, I'm still waiting for my next AMIGA.:D :D

ted

Originally posted by TheFerret
HS51 is USA (or North America), and HS50 is everywhere else.

And the 50 is missing the ethernet port that the 51 has (as has been stated in this thread).

Originally posted by reaper
And the 50 is missing the ethernet port that the 51 has (as has been stated in this thread).

And the USB port and the Image Director CD.... (Wohoo! Not!)

NP

Originally posted by nilsp
And the USB port and the Image Director CD.... (Wohoo! Not!)

NP

I thought the Image Director CD sounded pretty good for setting custom gammas.

nilsp
Don´t you have any hope for the 32-pin connector on the hs50 to provide a path for communication and use of ID2?

Interesting info from a recently posted Projector Central article:

* They measured light output at 300 lumens on the AE700

* Measured light output on the HS51 may be faulty due to a bad bulb

Man, you don't know how happy that makes me :)

I didn't find the comments at Projector Central. What did it say?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/high_contrast_LCD_projectors.htm

Lots of words... read

Ok, I see it, lazy me.

Reaper,
Its uncanny how much we think alike. A brighter HS-51 would sure make me happy!

That is good news, I might just have to go bigger than 100 inches, will see.

Originally posted by reaper
Interesting info from a recently posted Projector Central article:

* They measured light output at 300 lumens on the AE700

* Measured light output on the HS51 may be faulty due to a bad bulb

If they didn't have the same number of hours on the bulbs that could be one difference, even there is no bad bulb. They didn't say how many hours there were on the projectors when they were measured.

--Darin

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Originally posted by darinp2
If they didn't have the same number of hours on the bulbs that could be one difference, even there is no bad bulb. They didn't say how many hours there were on the projectors when they were measured.

--Darin


:confused: they are both new products. (even with 100 or more hours difference, it will be visually insignificant.).

note : "* Measured light output on the HS51 may be faulty due to a bad bulbe" : MAY BE :o (no reason to be "happy" now)

Originally posted by Busherie
:confused: they are both new products. (even with 100 or more hours difference, it will be visually insignificant.).
We were talking about measured differences, not visual differences. There could definitely be close to a 20% difference in light output if one had been used for a couple hundred hours. And a 20% drop from the 300 lumens of the AE700 would be 240 lumens (or about what they measured the HS51 at).

--Darin

someone on the board says they just bought a 51, time to start emailing.

eric

Hi,
Sorry, haven't been around lately and couldn't find where I last stopped reading.
Is the HS50/51 now available already or not? And are there any proper test and maybe comparisons of the HS51 to say the Z3 or Pana 700.
In Germany the sale price is down to 1870 Euros, which is about 2440 USDs.

So it's in the price region of Z3 and Pana700, at least over here, but not available yet.

I do not believe there have been any evaluations or hard comparisons between a production HS51 and its competition. To date, everyone has been evaluation and comparing pre-production HS51's.

imho, pre-production = production, sony people are not stupids, they don't want to see bad reviews ;)

Why is this Sony PJ called the HS 50/51? Which is which and are there two variants?

Originally posted by Busherie
imho, pre-production = production, sony people are not stupids, they don't want to see bad reviews ;) To you it means the same, but not to me. If they are the same, then why is prolonged delay? Its been some time since CEDIA and since some resellers has auditioned units that they called pre-production. Why not simply call them sample production units and be done with it? I didn't make the term, someone else did.

Originally posted by cpc
Why is this Sony PJ called the HS 50/51? Which is which and are there two variants?

The answer is 19 posts above yours.

Originally posted by Ohlson
nilsp
Don´t you have any hope for the 32-pin connector on the hs50 to provide a path for communication and use of ID2?

All hope is lost, it is over. Resistance is futile, you shall be assimilated. ;-) Well, there is always hope. Where is this connector, can't find it in the manual? We would have to hack a connector and somehow make ID2 recognize it... Might be tough.

Hopefully, the menus supplied will suffice in getting the image we want.

yes there are two models, but they are region based and might have some differences in features

Originally posted by TheFerret
I do not believe there have been any evaluations or hard comparisons between a production HS51 and its competition. To date, everyone has been evaluation and comparing pre-production HS51's.

Projector Central recently posted a comparison breakdown between
Hitachi PJ-TX100
InFocus Screenplay 4805
InFocus Screenplay 5000
Panasonic PT-AE700
Sanyo PLV-Z3
Sony VPL-HS51
while it isn't comnplete it does show where each one shines compared to there middle of the road starting point:)

http://www.projectorcentral.com/high_contrast_LCD_projectors.htm

being the official post, you guys should check out DEVETT's post on this forum. he has just gotten a 51, and taken pics of it. gives us all some hope. check it out.

Ok, so the first unit seems to be in the hands of its new owner. In the coming weeks can we expect a tweaks thread of our own? :)

A tweak thread for sure!
Just hope it's not a B&M thread!

Let's hope we won't need a tweak thread, because the projector will perform marvelously!

No two projectors (coming off the same assembly line) are the same. I hope the projector performs marvously for you, but I want every inch of performance I can get out of it just short of divorce papers. :)

Hello,

Hope this hasn't been answered earlier in this thread...
The Sony manual on page 56+57 mentions the different supported signals when feeding the Sony via HDMI input.
720/60p for NTSC and 720/50p for PAL are accepted. The same goes for 1080i. If I check for the VGA input the only support I can see for 1280x720 is 60Hz. Does that mean, that if I use a HTPC with a MP-1 mod. and feed the projector a 720p signal via my RGBHV to VGA cable, PAL will be only accepted with 1280x720@ 60Hz ??? NO 50Hz support ?
So the only way to feed a overscan free image for PAL would be with the HDMI input ? It would be a shame if I couldn't use my MP-1 modded graphics card for PAL dvd's....

Just wondering..

THX

Has anyone had any experience with Chief mounts? This is the one I am looking at. Any opinions? http://www.chiefmfg.com/product_display.asp?id=6301http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/photos/UPA-1002.jpg

I had a cheif mount for my last projector and it worked very well. It had a quick disconnect feature I used several times and I liked the fact that I could run cables through the pipe so they were hidden. The universal mount does't seem to have the ability to run the cable throug the pipe and no quick disconnect, so I'll be looking into a different version from cheif with these features. It may use the same mount as the HS20, which is shown here; otherwise I'll get a HS51 specific version:
http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/photos/RPA-P.jpg
http://www.chiefmfg.com/product_display.asp?typ=pp&id=3946&m=Sony&mm=VPL-HS20

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I had a cheif mount for my last projector and it worked very well. It had a quick disconnect feature I used several times and I liked the fact that I could run cables through the pipe so they were hidden. The universal mount does't seem to have the ability to run the cable throug the pipe and no quick disconnect, so I'll be looking into a different version from cheif with these features. It may use the same mount as the HS20, which is shown here; otherwise I'll get a HS51 specific version:
http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/photos/RPA-P.jpg
http://www.chiefmfg.com/product_display.asp?typ=pp&id=3946&m=Sony&mm=VPL-HS20

I use the Chief mount for my Sharp 10K and think its great. And best of all, it makes future pj upgrades much easier assuming they throw distance from the old pj still works. For example, I can simply purchase the correct attachment bracket that goes on the HS51, disconnect my 10K using a few thumbscrews, and then slide the HS51 into place. That is a snap compared to having to physically attach a proprietary mount to the ceiling every time you change pjs.

It still remains to be seen whether the HS20 Chief mount will work with the HS51. Since Sony lists the same mount for the HS20 and HS51 I'm thinking the existing Chief HS20 mount may work.

If anyone can confirm the screw holes for mounting on the HS20 are aligned exactly the same distances apart for the HS51 that would be great.

Thanks.

I'm either getting a chief or a perfectmount. Perfectmounts are cheaper but not sure on the quality.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I had a cheif mount for my last projector and it worked very well. It had a quick disconnect feature I used several times and I liked the fact that I could run cables through the pipe so they were hidden. The universal mount does't seem to have the ability to run the cable throug the pipe and no quick disconnect, so I'll be looking into a different version from cheif with these features. It may use the same mount as the HS20, which is shown here; otherwise I'll get a HS51 specific version:
http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/photos/RPA-P.jpg
http://www.chiefmfg.com/product_display.asp?typ=pp&id=3946&m=Sony&mm=VPL-HS20

In your message you mention a pipe, but it does not show one in your picture. Does it have a pipe attachment so that you can have it hang lower from the ceiling. I don't think a mount attached directly to my ceiling with no hang would work because of a light fixture in the way.

I have a slightly off topic question.

Which HT tuning DVD should I buy to get the best performance from the HS51?

I have read reviews that Avia is old and designed for CRT.

Avia Pro is too expensive!

Digital Video Essentials is tough to navigate through.

Sound and Vision?

I want a good picture, but don't plan to spend hours tweaking everything. I'm looking for something that in about an hour would get me a nice picture.

I'd love to hear from someone who has compared or used multiple tuning DVDs.

Lonnie

What about Avia regular?

Amen to that lonniehansenjr, I thought I was just too stoopid to make it all the way thru the DVE disc.

I was considering the Sound and Vision Home Theater Tune Up myself.

(did Home Theater magazine have a disc as well, or is it one and the same with Sound and Vision)?

The pipe is optional for the mount. Or you can go to the local hardware store and have a pipe cut and threaded for you. The Chief mounts are very user friendly. I used the quick disconnect feature and would hate to be without it.

"Sony is one of the only manufacturers to incorporate 12-bit processing after degamma. Significant banding results from 8-bit processing, but 10-bit is very good. However, 12-bit processing results in exceptionally smooth gray scale ramps totally devoid of banding."

I noticed this in the WSR review of the HS51. I was wondering if anyone here has had any personal experience comparing 10 and 12 bit processing. When he speaks of banding, I believe he is talking about unintentional bands in a field of grey color. If that grey color was changing from dark grey to light grey, one might notice that it would shift from dark to slightly lighter but still dark grey, then slightly lighter and so on.

This sounds like a nice benefit to the 51 over something like the AE700. I have seen no comments on this so far. Is it not that big of a deal? How would you guys characterize it?

reaper

Is the Avia regular disk capable enough for user-calibrating all inputs & modes? Minimally, shouldn't it be matched for the signal type as well as the specific input limitations? For instance, if one is using S-Video should they be calibrating for something like NTSC (with black being 7.5-IRE) whilest the HDMI and or RGB inputs calibrated for PC/ATSC? Is this robust enough for these tasks?

Anyone planning on running a constant height or similar screen? I know it will be difficult with no motorized zoom but what are the other options? I would rather not pay $1k+ for a lens but when mounted my projector will be about 8' high so getting to the zoom lens will be difficult.

Gary

reaper : "Significant banding results from 8-bit processing, but 10-bit is very good"

panasonic is 10 bit, so...

I'm a little lost, here, Busherie. You are saying that significant banding results from bit-processing being insufficient. What is insignificant banding, comparitively, and what does it result from? If the Panasonic is 10-bit then that is not even enough to resolve banding issues. We are talking about vertical banding, right?

Originally posted by reaper
"Sony is one of the only manufacturers to incorporate 12-bit processing after degamma. Significant banding results from 8-bit processing, but 10-bit is very good. However, 12-bit processing results in exceptionally smooth gray scale ramps totally devoid of banding."

I noticed this in the WSR review of the HS51. I was wondering if anyone here has had any personal experience comparing 10 and 12 bit processing. When he speaks of banding, I believe he is talking about unintentional bands in a field of grey color. If that grey color was changing from dark grey to light grey, one might notice that it would shift from dark to slightly lighter but still dark grey, then slightly lighter and so on.

This sounds like a nice benefit to the 51 over something like the AE700. I have seen no comments on this so far. Is it not that big of a deal? How would you guys characterize it?

reaper

I have not seen the AE700 or HS51. But from everything I have gathered and opinions from those I respect, the HS51 is superior in that it has a noticably higher contrast ratio, better (an excellent at that) blacks, and better internal processing (12 bit vs. 10). The AE700 sounds like it yields some higher light output which would be expected considering it does not complete in CR, and therefore may be better suited to a larger screen such as 120".

No we are *not* talking about vertical banding (I specified that in my original post). Vertical Banding is a fixed phenomena. Imagine that the entire screen was grey. But the left side was very dark grey and the right side was light grey. Or even simpler, imagine a screen where the left is black and the right is white. Imagine that the goal was to smoothly transition from that black to the white onthe other side of the screen. Depending on how many incremental shades of grey the projector could produce, that gradient across the screen could look better or worse. The 12 bit adds 4 times as many gradients as 10 bit.

I know that the 700 has 10 bit. I was wondering what the difference between "very good" and "exceptionally smooth" would be. I was looking for more insight into that qualitative statement. Basically, has anyone noticed banding in grey scaling. Has anyone ever thought it was a problem in 10 bit? Or has it been largely solved in 10bit and 12 bit is not that much of an advantage?

reap

I get VB as I've seen it, reaper. Thanks for the re-FYI, though. :)

I know you know what VB is. I did not know that you knew I was discussing a different issue here. No disrespect meant.

dlp hd2 have 8 or 10 bit processing...not so bad ;)

Originally posted by GScott
Anyone planning on running a constant height or similar screen? I know it will be difficult with no motorized zoom but what are the other options? I would rather not pay $1k+ for a lens but when mounted my projector will be about 8' high so getting to the zoom lens will be difficult.

Gary

This is one thing keeping me from upgrading my HS10. I have a "cheap" constant height setup, just using the power zoom. I looked at the Prismasonic lens, but found a post saying it didn't work with the HS10/20 because the lens was too recessed. The other lenses are $1K+ as you note, while they would be re-usable for future PJs, it's still a lot of $$$.

Having a 2.35:1 setup, I could never imagine going back to not having one. :)

Originally posted by reaper
No we are *not* talking about vertical banding (I specified that in my original post). Vertical Banding is a fixed phenomena. Imagine that the entire screen was grey. But the left side was very dark grey and the right side was light grey. Or even simpler, imagine a screen where the left is black and the right is white. Imagine that the goal was to smoothly transition from that black to the white onthe other side of the screen. Depending on how many incremental shades of grey the projector could produce, that gradient across the screen could look better or worse. The 12 bit adds 4 times as many gradients as 10 bit.

reap

Isn't the ability to see varying shades of gray/output a function of contrast ratio as well? Considering that the HS51 has a real world on/off CR of 5800:1 (as measured by Bill Cushman), I would think that means its particularly important that it has the highest bit processing (12 bits in this case) so its as smooth as possible (whereas it may not be as important to have 12 bit processing on a pj with a lower CR since as much detail cannot be seen in that case. This is just speculation.

Originally posted by JDLIVE
This is one thing keeping me from upgrading my HS10. I have a "cheap" constant height setup, just using the power zoom. I looked at the Prismasonic lens, but found a post saying it didn't work with the HS10/20 because the lens was too recessed. The other lenses are $1K+ as you note, while they would be re-usable for future PJs, it's still a lot of $$$.

Having a 2.35:1 setup, I could never imagine going back to not having one. :)

What about the cheaper Panamorphic lens. I know its not constant height, but but you think i would work with the hs51? Was thinking of later getting one.

Originally posted by lovingdvd
Isn't the ability to see varying shades of gray/output a function of contrast ratio as well? Considering that the HS51 has a real world on/off CR of 5800:1 (as measured by Bill Cushman), I would think that means its particularly important that it has the highest bit processing (12 bits in this case) so its as smooth as possible (whereas it may not be as important to have 12 bit processing on a pj with a lower CR since as much detail cannot be seen in that case. This is just speculation.

I believe it is related to contrast ratio and black level but not necessarily a function of either. I would submit that the projector can produce a black level of 0.11 lumens according to WSR. It can produce a bright spot of 658 lumens. You can calculate contrast based on those numbers, but more importantly, you can understand the range of the projector.

I would assume Sony is indicating that the projector makes use of a 12-bit brightness decoding algorithm. That would yield 2^12 discrete levels of brightness between 0.11 and 658 lumens. so, 2^12 is 4096 levels of brightness. I guess you could say that (658-0.11)/4096 would be the minimum brightness increment... or 0.16 lumens. Whereas, if this was a 10 bit system, we would have (658-0.11)/1024 = .64 lumens.

In my example, the goal would be to have a purely analog where the image went from 0.11 lumens to 0.110001 to 0.110002, etc. Instead, we have a situation where we go from 0.11 to 0.27 lumens. But that's better than going from 0.11 to 0.75, etc.

So, the question is: Does having that extra detail in brightness control visibly help? Has anyone ever compared? Does anyone have any opinions? Is 10-bit accuracy enough that this isn't eve a real benefit as no one ever noticed the gradations on 10-bit?

reaper

Only problem with that thought is it doesn't take into account a per frame instance or frame of reference.

For a single frame within any content, whether that be one frame out of 24fps film or 1 refresh of a 60-Hz expression, the contrast range is not going to be 5800:1. Within that given single frame the brightness range probably will be from 0.11 to 658 lumens.

Is there a way to turn the iris into a manual-mode for static condition?

I think you guys are talking about two different banding.
The vertical banding people usually talk about are instrinsic to the pixel structure and/or fill factor of each pixel. It is almost always verical for LCD displays.

The banding reaper has in mind is different. I think some people call it dihering or something (my spelling is bad). It looks like contour layers on a map. It can be of any shape.

Hi All-

I've got my name on a list at a local store here in Memphis for an HS51 (since the summer). Well, I just talked to them and they now have one in the store. They got it in yesterday, Monday. However I was told Sony will not let them sell it. They are supposed to use it for display purposes only. They also mentioned that the Sony rep told them that there were only 44 HS51's in the US and it would be a couple of more weeks before they would have more in stock. I asked if I could expect to get one before Christmas and he said "yes, i would expect so".

This store doesn't have an area set-up to properly display a projector, so I don't guess going down to look at it will do me much good. Actually, I'll probably go down to take measurements so I can prepare the shelf and the screen so I won't have to do anything other than hook it up once I get it.

Jim

Originally posted by lovingdvd
I use the Chief mount for my Sharp 10K and think its great. And best of all, it makes future pj upgrades much easier assuming they throw distance from the old pj still works. For example, I can simply purchase the correct attachment bracket that goes on the HS51, disconnect my 10K using a few thumbscrews, and then slide the HS51 into place. That is a snap compared to having to physically attach a proprietary mount to the ceiling every time you change pjs.

It Thanks.

This sounds great in theory, as I have been using the same RPA mount with the PLV60 SLB bracket unitl 3 weeks ago, when I sold my PLV60 and matching SLB bracket.

I kept the "universal" RPA top portion, thinking I copuld buy an SLB bracket for whatever projector I get next (Z2, AE700, or HS51).

The only problem is, who sells the SLB brackets? I did google and froogle searches, and only found the SLB+RPA combos.

This is an overly dramatic sample of the effect I am talking about:

http://www.well.com/user/bubbles/Gray256.GIF

I've seen this effect referred to as "false contouring". It was really, really bad on the early plasma displays. I saw it most often on facial close ups; you could see distinct bands of flesh tone, rather than a smooth gradient. Now, whether 12 bit is visibly better than 10 bit, I don't know. If the actual display device could take advantage of the additional steps provided by the extra two bits, I'd sure think it would be worth it.

Originally posted by Rgb
This sounds great in theory, as I have been using the same RPA mount with the PLV60 SLB bracket unitl 3 weeks ago, when I sold my PLV60 and matching SLB bracket.

I kept the "universal" RPA top portion, thinking I copuld buy an SLB bracket for whatever projector I get next (Z2, AE700, or HS51).

The only problem is, who sells the SLB brackets? I did google and froogle searches, and only found the SLB+RPA combos.

According to Chief the SLB bracket is available as a separate item. Check with AVS or I'm sure if you call around you can find just the SLB bracket without having to purchase a combo with the RPA. Paying say around $150 for just an SLB bracket and having a plug and play installation with an existing mount point - now that's a deal in my book considering the hassle that's required to mount otherwise.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Only problem with that thought is it doesn't take into account a per frame instance or frame of reference.

For a single frame within any content, whether that be one frame out of 24fps film or 1 refresh of a 60-Hz expression, the contrast range is not going to be 5800:1. Within that given single frame the brightness range probably will be from 0.11 to 658 lumens.

Is there a way to turn the iris into a manual-mode for static condition?

Another to consider is that source is only providing 8 bit values.

ted

Would one be able to test this with a computer setup for 8-bit (and 10 and 12-bit)?

I guess you could somehow put together an image with 4096 gradations of brightness and do the same for 1024 and see if you notice a difference. It would depend on a lot of factors though.... image size for instance.

Anywho, I wasn't trying to generate work for someone. I was just wondering if someone had real world experience with both approaches and could comment further.

Something to BS about while we wait for more user reviews of the HS51.

reaper

Anyone know where to get the service manual for the HS51?
Bill

I checked out, or should I say intruded upon, a demo of the HS51 vs. Panasonic AE700 myself at the same store DEVETT (who described his purchase in his own unofficial thread on this forum!) bought his HS51. (BTW, this was all happening with a Qualia hanging directly above the proceedings. Needless to say, they weren't A-B-C'ing between the HS51/AE700/Qualia.) I stayed about 45 min while the salesperson went back and forth between the pjs with a customer who ended up spending $800 less for the Panasonic. At the risk of offending those who might prefer the AE700, the sales guy and I agreed he made the wrong choice from the standpoint of absolute video quality.

Conditions: Screen - Firehawk 123" diagonal; viewing distance - 18'; environment - white walls, with low ceiling light on; source - Integra component DVD playing "Bourne Identity"; DVHS recordings of OTA sources; calibration - none beyond AVIA setting of contrast, brightness. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to see if the contrast setting was at Bill Cushman's WSR recommended setting of 60-70 on the Sony. When the salesman accessed menus on the Panasonic, all appeared to be at zero, initially.

A couple of things stood out, one was vertical banding which indeed, as others have said, was not notable on the HS51, and I was looking pretty carefully for it. Now it's possible that a direct A-B comparison with my other pj would show VB, but it wasn't noticeable on usual material with relatively big areas of solid color. (While the salesman said the Panasonic's very clear VB would go away with time, it was sure there to see on the AE700. In the off chance the VB wouldn't go away or be adjusted away, this alone would immediately take the Panasonic out of the running for me.)

Onward to screen door which was not appreciable, as one might expect, from 18' from the screen. There's been a lot of discussion about what constitutes pixel visibility or SD. Some people equate it with a certain roughness to textures, some to seeing discrete pixels. At this point, I'll take the safe answer and say it seems to me to be roughly equivalent to that I see with my BenQ 8700. I've invited DEVETT over to my place to check the pj out with my High Power. If he comes over we'll do direct comparisons and, with luck, post screen shots of the pixel structure.

Brightness has been brought up, and assuming this pj had a relatively new bulb, I could see how a higher gain screen will be almost a requirement for this pj at diagonals above 96". The brightness was just adequate, I'd say (sorry, I didn't bring my light meter along) with the Firehawk's 1.3 gain at 123" diagonal. I did not verify that the pj was in eco-mode though the salesman told me it was. I almost question this as there was not as huge a difference in light output between the AE700 and the HS51 as one might think and I believe the salesman was trying to make the two pjs competitive in this important, especially for sales, parameter.

Noise level on this pj was low, lower than my BenQ 8700 and more of a muted white noise sound without distracting elements.

Speaking of my BenQ, I'd say overall the HS51 reminded me a lot of it as far as picture smoothness and color and contrast were concerned. Frankly, I was going into this demo with higher expectations about black level being low. Clearly, the HS51 bettered the Panasonic here, but no question one could readily see the distinction between black beyond the picture's edge and the black bars from the DVD input. There were a lot of variables interfering with judgment of CR, especially ANSI CR, in this setting (walls weren't black and ceiling lights were on, although the screen was a Firehawk) but I would have accepted it if they told me I was watching an HD2, or perhaps more accurately HD2+, DLP.

The salesman pointed out "Better gamma tracking and gray scale" on the Sony. Again, we're comparing with the AE700 and not a Qualia, but I thought the HS51 rendered low level detail pretty well. I know LCD is better in gray scale, but I was reminded of my tweaked DLP far more by the HS51 than the AE700 in this area.

Notable, I thought, was scaling with standard def TV; it looked very good compared with my BenQ, though the overall picture size (my screen is 104" wide) probably helped the perception of sharpness even with that source.

Bottom line, in comparing this DLPs I've seen in like fairly uncalibrated conditions, I'd say it ranks up there nicely overall. I'd like to look at this pj again in my HT to look at ANSI CR, especially. Screen door will obviously depend on viewing conditions but with an IMX (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468350) lens - if deemed necessary by the viewer - and high gain screen if one is going with a bigger screen size, this pj is a great value.

Dan

Dan, your comments are appreciated. You reveal in your second paragraph one of the most puzzling things about businesses in this trade: why demo a projector without insuring its performing its best, along with the best environment possible to deliver the one-two knockout.

Obviously the customer that bought the Panasonic did not think there was justification in the Sony, and could you blame him? White walls and ambient lighting surely would have leveled the playing field, even more so considering the Panasonic, IIRC, is brighter.

I expect better from boutique shops, but I garner the Avia-calibrated situation in the environment was about as lethargic in initiative as what can be expected. Are they a real retail HT shop, or are they more custom installation (turnkey solution provider)?

Originally posted by ay221
What about the cheaper Panamorphic lens. I know its not constant height, but but you think i would work with the hs51? Was thinking of later getting one.

I think those are better for constant-width setups. I looked at it, but it adds a signifcant vertical offset that didn't work for me as I have very low ceilings.

TheFerret, this is a high end retailer that carries a fair amount of gear. No doubt they're tight with contractors, ISF technicians, etc., locally. I respect that businesses like this have to pay all the costs they have, and that they offer the possibility of looking at a piece of gear that otherwise wouldn't be available for viewing.

I was a bit surprized by the amount of light present, although none was directly cast on the screen, and the light walls and ceiling. From reading dealer's posts there was probably a conscious decision to not deviate too much from expected users' environments or pj settings, at least in this price range.

Dan

Originally posted by JDLIVE
I think those are better for constant-width setups. I looked at it, but it adds a signifcant vertical offset that didn't work for me as I have very low ceilings.

Interesting didn't pick up on that. Seems with the lens you have the vertical offset. So if you want to watch a 1.85 dvd, since the screen is fixed, you would have to mess with the lens shift each time your switching from 1.85 to 2.35.

Also I noticed some people are interested in that IMX lens for the HS51. If I were to purchase an enhancement I think I would prefer something that actually increases resolution and light output for this dim projector. I'm sure there are pros and cons to each. I think I will just use the projector as is initially then consider if I need extras.

Originally posted by lovingdvd
According to Chief the SLB bracket is available as a separate item. Check with AVS or I'm sure if you call around you can find just the SLB bracket without having to purchase a combo with the RPA. Paying say around $150 for just an SLB bracket and having a plug and play installation with an existing mount point - now that's a deal in my book considering the hassle that's required to mount otherwise.

Thanks for the followup.

After prototyping this DIY mount-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232749&highlig

I have decided to use it for my next projector. I am currently using an average current business type XGA LCD projector on loan as a stop gap until I decide which of the "big three" (Z3, HS51, AE700) will get my vote. This temporary pj is about the form factor and weight of the Big Three.

With some slight but functionally significant modifications (fully threaded 70mm fasteners, nylon locknuts in place of the lower wingnut, and longer springs) I made to the design, I feel it is more flexible and superior overall to the Chief.

Projector changes require only new holes drilled into the plexiglas (or a new small piece of plexi), and the height is adjusted coarsely by using appropriate pipe lengths and/or a coupler from the plumbing section of your hardware store. Fine height, roll, and pitch are adjusted with the top wing nuts. Fine and coarse yaw is done by simply turning the projector around the pipe.

As my HT budget gets tighter, saving the $150-$200 for new mounts and/or SLB brackets is a nice bonus.

I plan to sell my like new RPA mount.

Dan, not taking anything away from TV Specialists, but just giving you one man's interpretation of their website. I did not get a feeling that they were 'high-end', especially from 'tv specialists'. :) Must be some expensive boob-tubes. j/k

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the nice review.
I think that Sony went with a lower wattage lamp to get their contrast point of 6000. I found a place that rebuilds projector lamps, and being a hardware hacker at heart, I was thinking about sending them the lamp assy out of the hs51, and have them replace the 130 watt bulb with a 140 watt. Yes, I know that this would open a Pandora's's box of concerns, such as heat, power draw on the lamp driver etc. I wouldn't think that the added 10 watts would make a big operating impact on the projector.
I'm using a 133" diag Da-lite Cinema vision screen which is a 1.3 gain. My HS20 looks great on it, plenty of brightness, Sony specs it at 1400 lumen's at high lamp. The HS51 is 1200 with a lamp that is 50 watts less than the HS20. Sony must have really improved the optic path of the HS51 to achieve 1200 lumen's with a 130 watt lamp.
What would be really nice is if Sony would offer a optional 140 or a 150 watt lamp for people that would trade off some C/R for a little brightness.
For anyone that is interested in the lamp re-builder, here is the URL.
http://www.jopprugroup.com/plamp.htm
Al

Um, a lamps output shouldn't effect the overall contrast, should it? I though that contrast was the measurement of the system's ability to block the most light vs. passing the most light. If the lamp's output was 50% higher this should translate into the minimum and maximum light being passed/blocked is also 50% higher, but the contrast would remain the same.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Um, a lamps output shouldn't effect the overall contrast, should it? I though that contrast was the measurement of the system's ability to block the most light vs. passing the most light. If the lamp's output was 50% higher this should translate into the minimum and maximum light being passed/blocked is also 50% higher, but the contrast would remain the same.
You are right. The ratio should stay the same (other than color balance issues). C/R for brightness tradeoffs have not been with lamp output, they have been with variable irises (like the Sanyo Z2 or Sharp 12k).

I would definitely recommend not replacing a 130 watt bulb with a 140 watt bulb. I don't see any way that this small change would be worth the risk or possible warranty invalidation. And a bigger change would be a bigger risk.

--Darin

So is this review based upon the 110W setting or not?

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Sony must have really improved the optic path of the HS51 to achieve 1200 lumen's with a 130 watt lamp.



for best contrast : 270 lumens

If the Sony HS51 can produce a comparable image to a DLP HD2+ for half the price then this is a breakthrough product. It will put tremendous pressure on the DLP pj manufactures to either offer something equivalent for a similar price or significantly improve their product, if they intend to maintain their current pricing.

My prediction is that we will see improvements for both DLPs and LCDs beyond what Sony has done, and it will happen very soon. The next breakthrough will be a mechanical shutter (like the 3 chip Panasonic DLP) on a consumer friendly priced DLP or LCD which will give us total fade to black in those scenes that call for it.

I am anxiously awaiting Darin's review of the HS51.

Cheers,

Grant

These performance discussions are definitely more interesting to me but I would like somewhat more pedestrian information if available. I've tried to find manuals for the HS50/51 but was wondering if anyone has been able to discern differences other than the Ethernet port between these two models? We Canadians will be offered the 50 so I would like to know if the 51 is different enough to purchase from the U.S. As far as I know the software CD ROM will be include with the unit so I guess it is being interfaced via the USB port.
Any info is appreciated.

ted

Hi Darin,
Yes, I agree, 10 watts would only gain 40 lumen's, so it wouldn't make that big of a difference.
The reports of low light output is relative to what the people that have seen the HS51 are comparing it to. It may not be a issue at all for me as I will be replacing my hs20 with it. My concern is that there is less "wiggle" room for an aging bulb. The light output falls off quite a bit after 50 to 100 hrs, so with a 133" diag screen, bulb replacement may come a bit sooner for me.
Sense DEVETT was using gray paper as a screen, I can't really judge, by his report, what the brightness would be on a 1.3 gain screen. It may be just fine for me.
My dealer has a good return policy, so if I find it to be too dim for my environment, I will return it as I am very happy with my HS20 performance.
Al

I plan on using this projector with a 100 inch 1.4 gain screen and dark walls/ceiling, so hopefully it will be bright enough for me.

Now that these projectors are starting to trickle into the marketplace, I thought it might be a good idea to compile a short list of test DVD's and scenes to use when evaluating the projector.

Does anyone have specific titles and scenes that would be good to evaluate this particular projector and the items that most need evaluation?

(I would imagine that for the sake of the patience of everyone involved, the fewer DVD's one would have to flip through, the better.)

Anything dark. LOTR, Dark City, Gladiator.

I've read about the "lens shift" but I'm a little confused.

If I use both the horizonal and vertical shifts, how much can it be shifted?

I am planning to rack mount the HS-51 (my 10HT was ceiling mounted). It would be close to the center of the screen on the vertical. But on the horizontal plane, I am planning to have it on the "left edge" of the screen. Is there enough "shift" to center the image?

From Above


Screen

----------------------------------------------------------










Projector

X


Thanks for your help.

Also, does using the lens shift affect image quality at all?

I compared the manuals for the HS20 and the HS51 and the mount dimension is the same front-to-back. I'm assuming the left-to-right dimension is the same since the Sony mount part number is the same for both projectors. Since the Chief mount fits several different Sony and non-Sony products, I'm going to go ahead an order it. Because of a bulkhead in the front of my theater room, I'll need to hang the projector about 8" below the ceiling in the back of the room. I'm going to order the following parts; if you're going to mount directly to the ceiling, you only need the first part.
Chief RPA-2131 Inverted Ceiling Mount
Chief CMA-006 Fixed Extension 1.5" NPT Column - 6" Length
Chief CMA-115 6"x6" ceiling bracket w/1.5" NPT coupler

Originally posted by ay221
I plan on using this projector with a 100 inch 1.4 gain screen and dark walls/ceiling, so hopefully it will be bright enough for me.

You should be fine. It all depends on actual lumen output. Here are some calculations I just did for a 1.4 gain screen:

100" @ 339.13 lumens = 16 foot lamberts
100" @ 403.72 lumens = 19 foot lamberts
100" @ 529.89 lumens = 25 foot lamberts

In addition if you can sit 11 feet back, you'll have a 36.54 degree horizontal viewing angle with is just above THX minimum recomendation:
http://www.thx.com/mod/services/CHTTechnicalOverview.pdf

Hi EHUFF,
Could you tell me the numbers for a 133" at 1.3 gain?
Thanks
Al

"a lamps output shouldn't effect the overall contrast,"

True if everything else is equal. Something that may not be is the size/shape of the light producing region in the lamp. A lower wattage lamp may have a smaller "fireball" that that can be focused more tightly with less scattered light.

Hmm, if that's true, contrast as well as brightness would decline as a lamp ages and the electrodes burn down. Anyone noticed this?

Thanks EHUFF.

Here is a situation where some people say its ok and others not. That chief mount, if it's a direct ceiling mount. Is it required to have all four "screws/bolts" going to a stud support? Or can one side be through a stud and the other through drywall with maybe some good drywall anchors.

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Hi EHUFF,
Could you tell me the numbers for a 133" at 1.3 gain?
Thanks
Al

If you have Excel try this: http://www.CarltonBale.com/ht/calculator

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Hi EHUFF,
Could you tell me the numbers for a 133" at 1.3 gain?
Thanks
Al

Brightness in FtL =( Lumens * screen gain ) / screen area in sq ft
assuming the 133 is diagonal that would be a 115" x 65 " screen = 51.9 sq ft. Using the wsr measurement of 400 lumens in low lamp mode:

brightness = 400 x 1.3 / 51.9 =10FtL which is just below the DC recommended 12FtL. You might need to use a smaller screen or a higher gain screen, like a hipower.

Unfortunately I don't have Excel

Is there a reason not to use the High lamp mode? Here in Colorado the high fan speed needs to be on anyways, is there a reason besides bulb life and fan noise? and if it does affect the picture is it really significant?

Originally posted by ay221
Thanks EHUFF.

Here is a situation where some people say its ok and others not. That chief mount, if it's a direct ceiling mount. Is it required to have all four "screws/bolts" going to a stud support? Or can one side be through a stud and the other through drywall with maybe some good drywall anchors.

I sure wouldn't install it with drywall anchors. Wood should definitely be behind all 4 of the screws. The Chief installation manual shows a piece of wood running between the two beams in the ceiling behind the drywall. See figure 8 in the manual:
http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/pdfs/UPA%20Series-I.pdf

Since I already had drywall up with my last projector install, screwed a mounting board to the bottom of two joists (below the drywall ceiling) and fastened the projector mount to that board.

Isn't the ability to see varying shades of gray/output a function of contrast ratio as well? Considering that the HS51 has a real world on/off CR of 5800:1

no, and reaper is talking about going from white to black in one frame while the 5800:1 is on/off cr. The Sonyshould have a week ansi CR

Um, a lamps output shouldn't effect the overall contrast, should it?

true, but should affect black level

Does anyone have these in stock?

Originally posted by AnthonyP
no, and reaper is talking about going from white to black in one frame while the 5800:1 is on/off cr. The Sonyshould have a week ansi CR

CRT has good grey shading but low ANSI.
A wider on/off provides for more "headroom" (per the WSR review) so it would make sense that the Sony would have better low APL shading.

ted

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I sure wouldn't install it with drywall anchors. Wood should definitely be behind all 4 of the screws. The Chief installation manual shows a piece of wood running between the two beams in the ceiling behind the drywall. See figure 8 in the manual:
http://www.chiefmfg.com/uploads/pdfs/UPA%20Series-I.pdf

Since I already had drywall up with my last projector install, screwed a mounting board to the bottom of two joists (below the drywall ceiling) and fastened the projector mount to that board.

Thanks. Maybe I will try two black metal brackets of some sort between the joist.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I compared the manuals for the HS20 and the HS51 and the mount dimension is the same front-to-back. I'm assuming the left-to-right dimension is the same since the Sony mount part number is the same for both projectors. Since the Chief mount fits several different Sony and non-Sony products, I'm going to go ahead an order it. Because of a bulkhead in the front of my theater room, I'll need to hang the projector about 8" below the ceiling in the back of the room. I'm going to order the following parts; if you're going to mount directly to the ceiling, you only need the first part.
Chief RPA-2131 Inverted Ceiling Mount
Chief CMA-006 Fixed Extension 1.5" NPT Column - 6" Length
Chief CMA-115 6"x6" ceiling bracket w/1.5" NPT coupler

I highly recommend checking with Chief before purchasing the 2131 for the HS51. Even though the holes for mounting are aligned the same, there could be a difference as far as access to the filter or bulb for maintenance and they may have something more specifically coming for the HS51.

Originally posted by AnthonyP
The Sony should have a week ansi CR Why? Because it is an LCD or because of the iris? The ANSI CR doesn't look bad to me. Definitely not as good as DLPs, but not down to where I would say it is "weak". Especially considering that it might be as good or better than some very good CRTs.

--Darin

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Hi EHUFF,
Could you tell me the numbers for a 133" at 1.3 gain?
Thanks
Al

Sure:

1.3 gain @ 133" @ 484.52 lumens = 12 foot lamberts
1.3 gain @ 133" @ 646.03 lumens = 16 foot lamberts
1.3 gain @ 133" @ 888.29 lumens = 22 foot lamberts

You don't have excel, but for others I recommend Carlton's great calculator. Or, you could also try the one I made, which I just updated to include horizontal viewing angle. Download the one from the 3rd post down. Version 3.2. Requires MS Excel.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4374239#post4374239

What does everyone think about using a Vutec Silverstar with this projector?

Someone asked where the manual on-line is:

HS51 Manual from SonyStyle Site (http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf)

Have fun... I'm jealous!

One of the major U.S. retailers just updated thier site and changed the expected date for the HS51 arrival. It now reads:

Expected: 12/10/2004

Originally posted by worm5406
Someone asked where the manual on-line is:

HS51 Manual from SonyStyle Site (http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/documents/specifications/VPLHS51.pdf)

Have fun... I'm jealous!

Might have been me - I managed to locate it later but thanks for the effort.

Unfortunately it confirmed what I didn't want to hear and corrected what the Sony store salesman said - the HS50 doesn't have the Ethernet and USB ports so its no Image Director software for we Canadians. Riled me enough to send a complaint to Sony as to why they are selling a product with fewer features at a higher price even after exchange rates are calculated. Not that they care, but I've got to consider the worth of the software to me and whether that additional value is worth giving up quick service warranties.
Ho Hum.
Have I whined enough?

To any of those who might have previewed Image Director, your opinions would be appreciated.

ted

I just completed (mostly) an installation of an HS 51. Just in time for the Thanksgiving weekend view-athon.
We felt lucky to get one,but we had it presold and Sony came through.
We did not have ideal light conditions(some window spill) for the final evaluation,but it definitely has an advantage or 2 over the HS 20 of which we have installed several. The lens quality is noticeably better and this really cleans up the image compared to the mis-converged look on most HS20s. As mentioned it may be a bit dimmer with all the iris control and filtering going on but overall really nice video.
We had trouble with the HDMI connection. In the prewire we strung a 35 DVI cable. Of course we now know the 51 only has an HDMI. We tried using two converters one on either end ,but the results were similar to having the red and blue mixed up on a component connection. Weird color. We switched to component video and the pic looks fine. I am not sure what is causing the problem,but both ends we used the screw down connectors so I am pretty sure they are not loose or misaligned. At any rate I have a 40 foot HDMI to HDMI cable on order. Luckily we have a 2" conduit running to the projector.
On another note I found I could not get the HD TIvo and the Sony DVD player to fill the screen properly at the same time. If the DVD filled it than the Tivo had several inches of black around the picture. Not sure what is going on there,but hopefully switching to HDMI will eliminate the problem.
The screen position adjustment goes really along way. We are right against the ceiling and the screen a couple of feet below and the manual controls allowed us to bring it in perfectly. More fine tuning next week,but the customer is thrilled.

Originally posted by MMan
What does everyone think about using a Vutec Silverstar with this projector?
As long as you don't mind the cost and can set things up to work well with it (mostly ceiling mount) I think it could be a very good match for this projector.

--Darin

Originally posted by darinp2
As long as you don't mind the cost and can set things up to work well with it (mostly ceiling mount) I think it could be a very good match for this projector.

--Darin

Thanks! I may be one of the first to try it.

I will also be able to have a direct comparision of the AE700 but it's on a Firehawk.

Originally posted by EHUFF
One of the major U.S. retailers just updated thier site and changed the expected date for the HS51 arrival. It now reads:

Expected: 12/10/2004

What date did it previously have?

Originally posted by ddingle
I just completed (mostly) an installation of an HS 51. Just in time for the Thanksgiving weekend view-athon.
We felt lucky to get one,but we had it presold and Sony came through.
We did not have ideal light conditions(some window spill) for the final evaluation,but it definitely has an advantage or 2 over the HS 20 of which we have installed several. The lens quality is noticeably better and this really cleans up the image compared to the mis-converged look on most HS20s. As mentioned it may be a bit dimmer with all the iris control and filtering going on but overall really nice video.
We had trouble with the HDMI connection. In the prewire we strung a 35 DVI cable. Of course we now know the 51 only has an HDMI. We tried using two converters one on either end ,but the results were similar to having the red and blue mixed up on a component connection. Weird color. We switched to component video and the pic looks fine. I am not sure what is causing the problem,but both ends we used the screw down connectors so I am pretty sure they are not loose or misaligned. At any rate I have a 40 foot HDMI to HDMI cable on order. Luckily we have a 2" conduit running to the projector.
On another note I found I could not get the HD TIvo and the Sony DVD player to fill the screen properly at the same time. If the DVD filled it than the Tivo had several inches of black around the picture. Not sure what is going on there,but hopefully switching to HDMI will eliminate the problem.
The screen position adjustment goes really along way. We are right against the ceiling and the screen a couple of feet below and the manual controls allowed us to bring it in perfectly. More fine tuning next week,but the customer is thrilled.
How many units did you get in?

Originally posted by EHUFF
One of the major U.S. retailers just updated thier site and changed the expected date for the HS51 arrival. It now reads:

Expected: 12/10/2004

My order still lists the 11/26 date so maybe they sold all the ones expected on Friday. It would be nice to have mine next week but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally posted by ay221
What date did it previously have?

Previous date was 11/26/2004.

Well, it would appear at least a couple of dealers got a couple of grains of HS51's, and at least one dealer in Europe.

Originally posted by TheFerret
How many units did you get in?


We have three on order and received one. As mentioned this was paid for in advance

Originally posted by GScott
My order still lists the 11/26 date so maybe they sold all the ones expected on Friday. It would be nice to have mine next week but I'm not holding my breath.

Update...This morning my date changed to 12/3.

A wider on/off provides for more "headroom" (per the WSR review) so it would make sense that the Sony would have better low APL shading.


yes and no, this projector uses a dynamic iris to reach the on/off number, if we new at what position the iris would be for an image that is 50%grey that goes from white to black and could fix the iris at that position then we could measure the on/off for that position and would be no where near 5800:1

I don't disagree with what WSR says, just your interpretation of it and reaper's question.

For instance, changing B->W and anything in between to 50%G->W or B->50%G on this projoctor might make a big difference to what you will get depending on the algorithm used, while it should not make as much a difference on a projector that hs native 5800:1

Originally posted by darinp2
Why? Because it is an LCD or because of the iris? The ANSI CR doesn't look bad to me. Definitely not as good as DLPs, but not down to where I would say it is "weak". Especially considering that it might be as good or better than some very good CRTs.

--Darin

I was in a rush so I might not have replied as well as I could have done. I have not seen the projector so I connot say what the image will looklike or what it would get in ansi CR.

reaper had created a torture test (create an image that goes from white to black seamlessly) his question was would the 12 bit instead of 10bit (or something like that) mean that it should look seamless or whould there be some artifact that makes it look like different shades of grey bars and how does it compare to other projectors that just have 10bit

Someone responded that
Isn't the ability to see varying shades of gray/output a function of contrast ratio as well? Considering that the HS51 has a real world on/off CR of 5800:1

so not only is CR not important in this case (i.e. you can have infite CR, but if all you can produce is 4 shades you will end up with 4 bars one black one white and 2 shades in between) but also (and what I was talking about)that looking at the 5800:1 CR as the capable CR for this pic is wrong.

now as to your question :) you gave your own answer "Definitely not as good as DLPs", don't forget that everything is comparative and it was being compared to DLPs

Don't know if some people are confused here, but ANSI CR and on/off CR are two different things and the measurements are different on order of scale. According to WSR, the HS51 with calibration for maximum on/off CR clocked in at 5800:1 but this was NOT tuned for best picture quality, just max on/off CR. after calibration for best PQ, I believe the figure was then measured either somewhere around 3000+:1 or it might even have been about 2500:1. I believe the WSR review also stated that in a black room, ANSI CR came in at somewhere around 150:1 at maximum setting but in most rooms that aren't completely blacked out, the ANSI CR would probably end up around 50:1 from ambient reflected light.

BTW if it helps to know, ANSI CR is measured from a specific standardized screen image that has the screen divided into boxes 4 high by 4 wide for a total of 16 squares alternating black and white. The lumen measurement is then taken at the center of each of the white boxes and averaged, then compared to the average measurement from the centers of all the black boxes. The difference bewteen the average measurements of the white boxes vs. black boxes is the ANSI CR.

Also, as far as greyscale tracking goes, I have the AE700U which uses 10bit processing and although I DO see slight VB in scenes like the fog from Master And Commander, the smoothly graduated grey fields in AVIA do NOT show banding caused by the lesser (10bit vs. 12bit) processing. The progression from the black edge to the white is smooth in between. A deficiency in this department would show up as what has been called "false contouring" where I would actually see the steps between changes in IRE levels, but it is not visible to me. YMMV

From WSR it is more like 4000:1+ than 3000:1+.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Don't know if some people are confused here, but ANSI CR and on/off CR are two different things and the measurements are different on order of scale. According to WSR, the HS51 with calibration for maximum on/off CR clocked in at 5800:1 but this was NOT tuned for best picture quality, just max on/off CR. after calibration for best PQ, I believe the figure was then measured either somewhere around 3000+:1 or it might even have been about 2500:1. I believe the WSR review also stated that in a black room, ANSI CR came in at somewhere around 150:1 at maximum setting but in most rooms that aren't completely blacked out, the ANSI CR would probably end up around 50:1 from ambient reflected light.


not sure where you got 2,500:1 ?

WSR numbers:
On/Off CR
contrast at 100, high lamp: 5.834:1 and 658 Lumens
contrast at 100, low lamp: 5,768:1 and 521 lumens

contrast at 80, d65 dE < 5 : 4,300:1 and 400 lumens, 500 Lumens in high lamp

ANSI CR
177:1 maximum
159:1 at default contrast setting of 80

What were the numbers from the panny 700?

heres some news to any Australians, the hs50 just arrived into melbourne for sale today ,will have to go see it

Originally posted by MMan
What were the numbers from the panny 700?

WSR has not done a panny 700 review. Cine4home.com has done the only technical detailed review of the panny that I know of. IIRC they got a calibrated 950:1 on/off. They were able to increase that CR to 2,000:1 with CC filters. ProjectorCentral has also done a review, but with no measurements!

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
WSR has not done a panny 700 review. Cine4home.com has done the only technical detailed review of the panny that I know of. IIRC they got a calibrated 950:1 on/off. They were able to increase that CR to 2,000:1 with CC filters. ProjectorCentral has also done a review, but with no measurements!

I wonder what the lumen output would be at the calibrated 950:1. I hope to compare these two soon in person, although the screens will be different.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
not sure where you got 2,500:1 ?

WSR numbers:
On/Off CR
contrast at 100, high lamp: 5.834:1 and 658 Lumens
contrast at 100, low lamp: 5,768:1 and 521 lumens

contrast at 80, d65 dE < 5 : 4,300:1 and 400 lumens, 500 Lumens in high lamp

ANSI CR
177:1 maximum
159:1 at default contrast setting of 80

My mistake, about the 2500:1. below are the relevant comments, and tuned for video quality, the on/off CR is between 3400:1 and 3800:1

WSR review excerpt:

"Does it work? Is the Sony claim of up to 6000:1 contrast ratio true? The answer to both questions is YES! Using the High lamp output and contrast set to maximum, the light output was 658 lumens, and the black level was 0.11 lumen for an on-off contrast ratio of 5834:1. Using Low lamp output, results were 521 lumens maximum, 0.09 lumen black, and a contrast ratio of 5768:1. The maximum contrast setting results in considerable deviation of the white point because the projector runs out of both red and blue , but there is no hard clipping of the video, even at that setting. With the contrast control at its default setting of 80, the white point deviation on a 100 percent white field was below 5 dE (delta-E), and the light output was about 500 lumens on High and 400 lumens on low. Contrast ratio ran about 4300:1. Because the iris closes on window patterns, and the video is boosted to compensate, a color shift occurs on window patterns when the contrast is set above 40. For most viewing, I found a contrast setting of 60 to 70 fully-acceptable, and the contrast ratio is 3400:1 to 3800:1 at these settings.

The modified ANSI contrast ratio measurement (developed by Video Technical Editor Greg Rogers) was 177:1 at a contrast setting of 100. At a more reasonable contrast setting of 80, results were 159:1. Typical results at the screen in most rooms will be much lower, usually in the 50 to 100 range, but this is adequate for good image quality. Most people will not tolerate rooms with flat black walls and black carpet, but viewers in such rooms can achieve the full measured ANSI contrast.

I also measured the actual contrast ratio using low-level window patterns. With a 10 percent window pattern, I measured a contrast ratio of 12.5:1 with the iris set to automatic. With the iris set to off, the contrast ratio measured 3.3:1. On a 20 percent window pattern, the iris auto reading was 33.3:1, and the iris off reading was 16.7:1."

Who plans on running their projector in high lamp mode? Curious as why you would want to use low lamp mode.

Say I just read the WSR review of the HS51 and noticed that it mentioned that 720 p signals from a DVI connection were displayed smaller than a 480p signal

"Scaling picture quality and lack of artifacts was excellent in all modes, but I felt overscan was excessive. SD (480i and 480p) video and component signals had 5 percent cropped from each side of the image. No adjustment was provided. HDTV (720p and 1080i) video had reasonable overscan of 3 to 4 percent. RGBHV 720p and DVI 720p signals appeared to be directly pixel-mapped with the sides blanked to give the same appearance as overscan. This resulted in a smaller image than when using analog component signals. I wish the behavior was consistent in all modes and a choice was given for 0 percent or moderate (2 to 3 percent) overscan."

Actually as mentioned in my earlier post in this thread we observed a smaller picture on the HS51 when using an HDtivo on the same component input than when using DVD player. The HS51 has different panels than earlier models. I am wondering if this is going to be an issue! Adjusting picture size for each source would be a disappointment if not an impossibility with manual zoom only.Any insight would be appreciated. The HS20 did not exhibit this tendency. Thanks

A german mag (Heimkino) did a review of the Pana in it's recent issue which was favorable.

ddingle I catched the overscan issue too and I am wondering is this intentional, i.a. words does Sony think yes that's the way it should be and one will have to live with that?

HDTV (720p and 1080i) video had reasonable overscan of 3 to 4 percent. RGBHV 720p and DVI 720p signals appeared to be directly pixel-mapped with the sides blanked to give the same appearance as overscan.

{This is concerning only 720p]
Don't put these on sony ...just yet.

i have the panny 500, it's the same thing. With DVI 720P, you get 1:1 Mapping but HD content 720p is depends on which channels you turn in or perhaps the source/receiver? I don't get to remember all the channels overscaning ratio from DCT-6412 to Panny 500 but they are not all the same. I get from 1:1,1% ..2% and as much as 5%(roughly) overscan from diff channels with DVi720p. Same thing over component 720p. In time, i learn to get used to it.

Regarding 480i/480p overscan, that doesn't happen on Panny but good news is i don't have 480 source format to worry about..:D

Last check, sony upgrade is still a go, only they got them in stock. :D

Originally posted by ay221
Who plans on running their projector in high lamp mode? Curious as why you would want to use low lamp mode. Well, not everyone is looking for a screen size & ft-L combination that would necessarily require high-lamp mode. For instance, what if after color calibration (6500K) and maximum CR if reached you want to lower the BL. Could one not do this by lowering the lamp's output in a crude means?

Some people do seem to be running +100" in screen width, but I would be running at 80" width.

Originally posted by ddingle
I am wondering if this is going to be an issue!

I believe this is intentional. It's to compensate for the overscan area that is normally not viewable. The procedure is called blanking. I would be shocked if the service menus will not have a blanking adjustment to get rid of the "issue". I had a Sony LCD rear projection unit that had the exact same thing, and sure enough I adjusted for it in the service menus.

TheFerret
80" a sign of your crt heritage?

I'll use low lamp mode with a Da-Lite Hi-Power Screen. It will save bulb life and therefore cut the cost of operation.

Originally posted by Ohlson
TheFerret
80" a sign of your crt heritage? A sign of the room being small. I currently experience a healthy amount of light reflecting off of the adjacent walls/ceiling due to the surface relief and not the color. Also, to go larger would force me to spend money on another screen--which I am not prepared to do at this time unless the Draper M1300 proves to be a PITA. :)

Also, to go larger would force me to spend money on another screen

isn't it part of your CRT heritage :) if you bought your screen with a digital you could have gone larger at that time and you would not need a larger screen now to use this projector to its fullest

No, the screen size was based on the room itself. After two years of viewing other people's HT rooms I could see what the net results were for conditions in which the screen's L/R edges got closer and closer to the adjacent wall, and the top edge closer to the ceiling. At 14 ft-L, I have already reached the conclusion that either someone needs to come out with a better controlling screen material, or a much more wider room is necessary.

But the HS51 is an experiment. I will determine if its better/worse than the CRT I am using now for an overall feel. This should be too difficult on the Sony since I'm not using my XGLC at the moment, but a 7" rotm CRT.

Originally posted by TheFerret
No, the screen size was based on the room itself. After two years of viewing other people's HT rooms I could see what the net results were for conditions in which the screen's L/R edges got closer and closer to the adjacent wall, and the top edge closer to the ceiling. At 14 ft-L, I have already reached the conclusion that either someone needs to come out with a better controlling screen material, or a much more wider room is necessary.

But the HS51 is an experiment. I will determine if its better/worse than the CRT I am using now for an overall feel. This should be too difficult on the Sony since I'm not using my XGLC at the moment, but a 7" rotm CRT.

I am in the same boat. I'm hoping that the HS51 will give me the blacks and contrast I'm looking for, or almost as much anyway. The AE700 is bright but lacks some of the shadow detail. We'll see if the 51 can fit the bill.

TheFerret: I was just joking

Originally posted by EHUFF
I'll use low lamp mode with a Da-Lite Hi-Power Screen. It will save bulb life and therefore cut the cost of operation.

Low lamp mode usually quites down the fan considerably as well.

Originally posted by AnthonyP
TheFerret: I was just joking I know. :)

Originally posted by EHUFF
I believe this is intentional. It's to compensate for the overscan area that is normally not viewable. The procedure is called blanking. I would be shocked if the service menus will not have a blanking adjustment to get rid of the "issue". I had a Sony LCD rear projection unit that had the exact same thing, and sure enough I adjusted for it in the service menus.

I casually looked through the service menu,and did not see anything about "Blanking" We used to use and adjust blanking all the time with CRT sony projectors. Next week I will get time to get a closer look. Thanks for the input

HustonHoyaFan,
Just got back in town.
Thank You for the info. Will see how the HS51 plays with on the 1.3 gain screen.
May have to have the lamp rebuilt to a 140 watt as I don't want to go to a hipower screen at this point.
Al

Originally posted by ddingle
I casually looked through the service menu,and did not see anything about "Blanking"

It should be in the factory or service menus. Look for these:

HBLK
VBLK

BTW: what is the code to enter the service menu for the HS51, since you seem to have done it. Thanks.

Edit: We may possibly have to adjust for vertical and horzontal positioning too. But, probably not vertical and horizontal size. Anyway other options to look for are:

HSIZ = Horizontal Size
HPOS = Horizontal Position
VSIZ = Vertical Size
VPOS = Vertical Position
HPHS = Horizontal Phase
HBLK = Horizontal Blanking
VBLK = Vertical Blanking

Originally posted by EHUFF
[

BTW: what is the code to enter the service menu for the HS51, since you seem to have done it. Thanks. [/B]

With the projector on hit "enter " , " enter" ,"up arrow", "down arrow" , "enter" It will ask you if you want to enter the service mode push "up" for yes "down" for no. Reverse for back to user menu. In addition there is a save to memory in the white balance area.

Hi EHUFF,
Thanks for doing the calculations for me. This 133" screen has worked just fine for me with the HS20. Will see how it does with the HS51.
Al

Okay, thanks, I think thats the same for my last Sony projector.

Now would be a good time to plead that nobody enter the Factory/Service menus unless you know what your doing. And for goodness sake be SURE to write down your default settings before saving any new settings! Video projectors have individually calibrated settings before leaving the factory. One persons' settings could be significantly different than anothers. Also, settings can sometimes be reset by novice tweakers. Be careful!

Again, WRITE DOWN, settings before tweaking. And enter at your own risk.

Looked up the old FAQ to my old projector. Same Service menu code, so the Factory code is probably the same.

http://www.thebigpicturedvd.com/vw10ht_faq.shtml#menu

Search the page for "Entering the service/factory menus"

Originally posted by EHUFF
[

Search the page for "Entering the service/factory menus"

FACTORY MENU!!! We have never needed to access that area. I usually just calibrate a new gray scale in the service menu.
I am optimistic that blanking adjustments will be found in the factory service area. Thanks

What DVD players are you people considering for this projector? I am considering an hdmi player like the sony or panny, but am concerned with their issues. Panny introduces pinkish grays in certain scenes and MacroBlocking while the Sony introduces Chroma Errors and green depression if the player doesn't allow you to select the SD color matrix when using the hdmi input.

I might just have to run a component cable and use my existing player.

Denon 3910 seems to be a perfect companion for the HS-50, it's got all the needed settings to accomadate different black-level settings etc. At least that will be my player of choice, a bit pricey, but it's got HDMI and a nice DAC. (PS! Should state that I've allready purchased the 3910, with intention of using it for the HS-50.)

Regards,
Tore K.

The Denon 2910 is also a very good choice and is a little less expensive than the 3910. I will be using the 2910 with my hs51 projector.

Not that I think it probably matters too much (I would be more interested in seeing a DVD-player avoidance list), but for 480i Region 1 playback I would think the Sony could already do a good job. Also, if one thought that the Sony couldn't do a good job then one might be thinking about an out-board video processor.

From what I've heard, people have said good things about how well the Sony handles 480i, especially compared to the competition (projectors). I do not think I could give up my dual 400-disk changers. I do not rely on them for deinterlacing, but I do rely on them for my convenience. :)

Ok, here are some thoughts after seing the HS50 again as a production unit. I have seen it before in a big shootout, which i posted my comments on in this thread: Shootout thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461423)

The production unit was just as good, or perhaps a little bit better than the pre-production unit I saw before. The biggest difference was that it in low-lamp mode was very very quiet, i'd belive the specified 24db, almost had to put my head close to it to hear it. In high-lamp mode the fan gets a bit noicier though, id put it fairly close to my benq pe7800 that is specified to about 32 db. (think it perhaps was a little less than the 7800)

Next issue people really have been discussing with this projector is that its dim. By seing it this time on a 90" 1.0 gain screen and in direct competition with the Sanyo z3 I must say that its exaggerated, it did not lack punch in the image. It was dimmer than the z3 but not with much and I actually found myself asking about if it was in high mode since I thought it would be dimmer.

The Z3 which looks pretty good on its own, and very much comparable to the AE700 but with less VB, did look ok as long as it was in brighter scenes compared to the HS50, but as soon as a black scene occured it looked very grey compared to the HS50 which just walked all over the z3 in terms of contrast. Also the clearity of the image is much better in the HS50, it looks like a DLP more than a LCD. I found myself thinking the Z3 looked "dirty".

Again no VB what so ever on the HS50 and for those worried about screendoor, dont be...It was much less noticable than on the Z3.

So back to the discussion about the lumens of the HS50. I thought it did pretty good on a 1.0 gain white screen, I was supprized because as many here I have been thinking of going with a higher gain screen, with all its drawbacks in terms of viewing angles etc. But now I dont think I will.

Then a thing that has not been discussed here regarding the HS50 and one of the few reasons people are thinking about an AE700 or a Z3, becuase they want a brighter projector...Well I tried the option of turning the AUTO IRIS off, to see what impact it made compared to the Z3..and all of a sudden the HS50 produced an image wich was brighter than it, and probably the AE700 too. Of cause you dont get as deep blacks with super contrast, but the contrast it produced in AUTO IRIS off was very much comparable to the Z3, the blacks looked as black as it. But you had NO VB, very low screendoor, a smoother clearer picture and better colors. I would without hessitation go for the HS50 compared to AE700 or Z3 even without its revolutionary IRIS.

So, talking for myself, I use my projector for some different situations: For looking at DVD:s in as a good cinema situation as possible, for looking at DVD:s with the family, for looking a childrens films and for looking at sports.

When it comes to the first, the HS50 is just awesome and produces one of the best pictures I've seen in a projector with superb blacks and great color. I always look at films in as a black room as possible and for that the HS50 has lumes enough and then some with the auto iris on and in low lamp mode.

However for the other situations, we usually look at those with some lights on, especially for children films and sports, and for family films they usually dont need perfect blacks..hehe..So then I will probably use the possibility to turn the IRIS off and then it produces a brighter image than its competitiors but with just as good blacks as them. So for me the HS50 is in a win-win situation and I dont have to worry about how it will handle in a brighter room.

Havocsi, I'm a little lost on the Lumen argument that is being presented for the benefit of those wanting some light on in the room. If the owner's wishes are to have ambient light then a) run the HS50/51 in normal/high mode, or b) find a projector where contrast isn't highly important.

Adding 1-Lumen of ambient room light can completely trash a high-CR performing projector's efforts to deliver high-CR to the screen. I would like to think anyone considering the Sony isn't so much concerned with the ability to light up the room as its ability to pull in as much contrast as possible.

So, whether the basement light level is 1-Lumen as a result of the Sony being in bright-mode or its a culmination of have ambient artificial light the result will undoubtedly level the playing field when comparing it to the competition. I can see no reason to compare a low-lamp mode Sony against a brighter projector in a room with desired ambient light. Run the Sony in high-lamp mode, get the more lumens, and pretty much have the same contrast as the completion.

Now, if $650 difference means a lot in a scenario like this, save your financial resources and get the Panasonic or Sanyo. :) I, for one, am not buying the Sony for a need of a light-cannon (I'd get the Canon LCoS for that), but rather the humongous contrast--and Panasonic & Sanyo can't begin to compete there for me.

BTW, nice review.

I was not saying that you should buy the HS50 for the brightness of it, I certanly wont. I was just directing on of the things many have commented on, that it perhaps is to dim and that someone would choose a projector with more brightness because, they like me, does not all the time watch in perfect darkness.

When I watch only with my wife or my friends and watch films I really want to see; the HS50 is the perfect projector for me (whom has problems with RBE) where I really can use that contrast of it.

But it is also the perfect projector for me when used in those other situations, and that was what I tried to say with the "review". It is a very flexible projector that can be used to achive superb cinema feeling with great contrast when you turn off all lights, but it also can be used when you are in a situation where you dont...get my drift?

I know you were not suggesting someone buy one over the other, but just thought it was fundamentally flawed to even consider one product when it was clearly designed for a different job. I personally think Sony was trying to get the most contrast regardless of how much loss in lumens was the result. And in doing, they made headlines on these boards and probably scared the DLP mankers.

Havocsi,

Thank you for the nice addition to your review! You answered many questions I had about this projector.
I will not be watching this projector in a black hole either, therefore your review was right on for me.
Was the screen 90" diagonal or 90" wide and what brand/model?

Thanks again,

Havocsi,

Another great write-up. Thanks! I thought what you were saying made perfect sense. Rest assured that the majority did not find your thoughts flawed :).

I'm also interested in what screen material these last observations were made on.

thanx havocsi for your valuable info on the lumens. I have a 134" diag 1.1 gain screen (Dalite HCMW), and the room is not perfect, do u think the sony can do it ?

Anyone have any idea how the Carada Brilliant White would team up with the HS51 now that we have the report from Havocsi?

Thanks!

Larry

I think havocsi brings up a point many seem to forget about the hs51--the fact that it has 3 settings for the iris.

For critical viewing the iris on auto for the better black level/contrast. For sunday hd football, either iris off for the brightness with decent contrast (1000:1) or for a bit better contrast (1300:1) but a bit dimmer turn the iris on.

Some of us will be using this pj in a non-dedicated room and it seems to offer a lot of versatility...

Havocsi,

Point taken and I agree. Because you can use the varied settings you have a great projector for video/sports, HD & DVD depending on how you like it.

Well, it would be interesting to poll the posters in the HS51 thread(s) if they are buying it for the contrast performance or other aspects. Unfortunately, that will never happen. :)

Well, I'm certainly buying mine for the contrast performance and I'd vouch that most other folks are too.

Personally I can can't wait to get hold of it! I don't expect crt blacks (I had a Barco 808 until recently) but they'll be dark enough for most folks I suspect.

I wonder if using the Sony with the iris open isn't actually wasting the very thing that the Sony is so sought after for, its high cr? Each to their own though.

Paul

Once I asked the question regarding how many people measured the ambient light in their dedicated space in order to determine what CR they were not getting. I was surprised that almost no one did. This told me that the perception of CR performance for a product was almost meaningless if the buyer is ignoring the detrimental factors that ultimately will inhibit the CR performance from coming to fruition in their dedicated space.

For instance, if someone wants 5-lumens of ambient of light in their dedicated space, or that the ambient light cannot be controlled to less than that amount of light (maybe its not a dedicated space), then why bother with a high-CR performing product if a less expensive one performing equally in all other (non-CR) areas exists?

But since our perception of light is non-linear the understanding of potentially nuisance ambient light may often be trivialized, when its effects are a lot more than trivial. I suppose its a dang good thing we don't glow in the dark in the visible spectrum. LOL

For anyone using the home theater calculator spreadsheet on my website, it has been updated to fix one of the calculations thanks to feedback from Brad/Viper-Fan. Link is in my signature.

Ferret,
You are hitting on a topic I've thought about and come to the conclusion that too much brightness from the pj is not good either. If you have total blackness and the only source of light is the pj, your brain/eye gets used to that level of light. If that overall average level is too high relative to the black levels in the material being viewed, your eye/brain may not be able to adjust fast enough to allow you to see the shadow detail you are expecting and which may acutually be there. It's like when the power goes out and you can't see well in the dark for a while. In other words I'm sure there's an optimum luminance level beyond which the eye/brain will not be able to "down shift" fast enough to see shadow detail before the next bright scene arrives.

Bill

According to that calculator, Carlton, for 400-lumen low HS51 condition and my setup (w/1.30 gain screen), the result will be a little brighter than my CRT (15.6 vs 14.0). Sweet!

I am number two on the list at my dealer. So, hopefully, will have the hs51 in a few more weeks. I am thinking about the Carada brilliant white (1.4 gain) or a da-lite. My room is 10' wide and 20' long. Any thoughts on the screen?

By the way, the ceiling is only 7' high. I want to have the seats back about 17'. With a 106" diagonal screen, would it be better to ceiling mount at about 15 feet or put the sony inside a low, black cabinet at 15 feet.

Thanks for any advice on this,

Larry