Originally posted by TheFerret
According to that calculator, Carlton, for 400-lumen low HS51 condition and my setup (w/1.30 gain screen), the result will be a little brighter than my CRT (15.6 vs 14.0). Sweet!

Ferret,

Just a curiosity question...Was the 14 ft-L for your CRT measured or estimated? If measured what did you use?

I found some potentially interesting information regarding the HS51 black level. I went back and read some of the older WSR projector reviews and some of the measurements don't make sense to me. In particular the review of the HS-10. In the HS-10 review they measured the black level as .016 ft-L but the HS-51 measured higher at .09 ft-L. The HS-51's on/off contrast is roughly 4-5x higher than the HS-10 so shouldn't the resulting black level be lower?

Originally posted by TheFerret
According to that calculator, Carlton, for 400-lumen low HS51 condition and my setup (w/1.30 gain screen), the result will be a little brighter than my CRT (15.6 vs 14.0). Sweet!

You might be slightly over 20FtL! The HS51 is a 16x9 pj. Your screen area will be 80 x 45 or 25 sq ft

FtL = ( 400 * 1.3 ) / 25 = 20.8 FtL.

What 7" CRT are you currently using to get 14 FtL on that size screen?

Originally posted by GScott
I found some potentially interesting information regarding the HS51 black level. I went back and read some of the older WSR projector reviews and some of the measurements don't make sense to me. In particular the review of the HS-10. In the HS-10 review they measured the black level as .016 ft-L but the HS-51 measured higher at .09 ft-L. The HS-51's on/off contrast is roughly 4-5x higher than the HS-10 so shouldn't the resulting black level be lower?

Different units of measurements.

The HS51 0.09 is in Lumens
The HS10 0.016 is in Foot Lamberts which is lumens per Sq Ft.
Using the 87 x 49 screen (29.6 sq ft ) in the HS10 review

Ftl = ( 0.09 * 1.3 ) / 29.6 sq st = 0.00395 FtL for the HS51 or aabout 4 x lower. Note also that the HS51 will be almost 2 x brighter resulting in a 7 x CR inprovement over the HS10 !

Originally posted by GScott
Just a curiosity question...Was the 14 ft-L for your CRT measured or estimated? If measured what did you use? I did no measuring myself. The person that calibrated my CRT used, IIRC, a CA-1.
Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
You might be slightly over 20FtL! The HS51 is a 16x9 pj. Your screen area will be 80 x 45 or 25 sq ft
FtL = ( 400 * 1.3 ) / 25 = 20.8 FtL.
What 7" CRT are you currently using to get 14 FtL on that size screen? You may be right! Time to break out the sunglasses!

PS: CRT is a GE Imager 601s, which I believe is a rebadged NEC 6PG(+).

Originally posted by larsil
I am number two on the list at my dealer. So, hopefully, will have the hs51 in a few more weeks. I am thinking about the Carada brilliant white (1.4 gain) or a da-lite. My room is 10' wide and 20' long. Any thoughts on the screen?

By the way, the ceiling is only 7' high. I want to have the seats back about 17'. With a 106" diagonal screen, would it be better to ceiling mount at about 15 feet or put the sony inside a low, black cabinet at 15 feet.

Thanks for any advice on this,

Larry

Larry, ceiling vs. floor mount is up to you. Most people prefer ceiling because wires are out of the way. Also, depends on your screen. The Da-Lite High Power screens loose their advantage with ceiling mounts, other screens should be fine.

You may want to play around with the spreadsheet linked in my signature (assuming you have Excel.) This will give you some ideas on recommended viewing distances. 17' may be a little far back for a 106" diagonal screen. A ceiling mount projector would give you more flexibility to play around with seat locations. . .

Carlton,

Thanks for the reply. I like sitting further away from the screen than most. When I went to a demo of the sony hs20 on a 106" diagonal, my favorite spot was back around 16-17 feet.

So, you think 7' is high enough to ceiling mount the projector? Any idea what mount would keep it up as close as possible to the ceiling?

Larry

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Different units of measurements.

The HS51 0.09 is in Lumens
The HS10 0.016 is in Foot Lamberts which is lumens per Sq Ft.
Using the 87 x 49 screen (29.6 sq ft ) in the HS10 review

Ftl = ( 0.09 * 1.3 ) / 29.6 sq st = 0.00395 FtL for the HS51 or aabout 4 x lower. Note also that the HS51 will be almost 2 x brighter resulting in a 7 x CR inprovement over the HS10 !

Great catch. I knew it had to be something. Just for fun I scanned some of the more recent WSR reviews and found the following values for black level.

Sharp 12k .0035
Marantz 12S3 .0045
Yamaha 1100 .0033

These were on 85.3" wide Studiotechs. That puts the HS-51's black level up there with the best DLP's. This gives me hope that I may in fact be happy with this projector over my CRT.

I just got a new HS51 on Nov 26. Because of weekend plans I haven't had time to watch a whole movie, but have had time to run some tests using a HTPC. The results may be of interest to people who want to use this PJ with a HTPC. My HTPC has a ATI Radeon 9600 card with dual VGA and DVI output and PowerStrip.

The Good News

You can get 1 to 1 pixel mapping on Input A (VGA 15 pin connector) and see the whole Desktop (no blanking or overscan).

I set the Desktop background to a test pattern I downloaded years ago. I think it came from Patrick Megenity when he was doing the HTPC reports in SGHT. It is a 1x1 pixel B&W checkerboard pattern with corner markers at 1, 5, and 10 pixels. The file is attached if anyone wants it. I set the output to the 1280x720 HDTV setting in Powerstrip (Horizontal 45 kHz and Vertical 60 Hz).

The HS51 seems to display all 1280x720 pixels, I could see the 1 pixel corner markers. The APA (Automatic Pixel Adjustment) function produced a viewable image, but I had to tweak the Dot Phase and H Size settings on the PJ manually to remove interference patterns in the checkerboard. Once this was done, I had to use the PJs Shift adjustment to see all the corner markers. Once you do this, you need to turn OFF "Smart APA", otherwise it will reset the next time you turn the projector on and loose your settings.

The resulting image is excellent, sharp and clear. I watched the montage on Video Essentials and it looked great.

I tried some of the other 1280x720 Powerstrip settings and the HS51 seemed to handle them all. I also tried dialing in the Memory No. 56 setting on page 57 of the manual using Powerstrip, but it still required manually tweaking the Dot Phase and H Size to eliminate interference patterns. Oddly the H Size setting which produced no interference did not match the value for Memory No. 56 in the manual.

Input A seems to be pretty flexible, I suspect that if you can set your video card to 1280x720@60Hz you will not need Powerstrip. The PJ adjustments should allow you to tweak in 1 to 1 pixel mapping.

The Bad News

I could not get 1 to 1 pixel mapping on the HDMI input. I used a DVI to HDMI cable connected to the same video card with the 1280x720 HDTV setting. It produced a viewable image, but the B&W checkerboard background had become a uniform field of grey pixels. It also produces a large black border all the way around the image which obscures more than half of the taskbar. This was noted in the WSR Review, but I was hoping it was a pre-production glitch that would be fixed. There don't seem to be any PJ settings to adjust this in the user menus. I tried tweaking the settings in Powerstrip, but they seemed to have no effect. If I drifted too far from the 1280x720 HDTV settings, the screen would go blank with a "frequency out of range" message. Maybe they will fix this in a future firmware upgrade.

The black border could be a real issue for people who switch between inputs, since you might have to zoom in to fill the screen when you switch to HDMI, then zoom back out for other inputs. Zooming is done by a ring around the lens, and also interacts with the lens shift which might need to be readjusted as well.

I don't know if you will see the same issues with HDMI or DVI output from a set top box or DVD player, since I don't have any other sources to try. WSR reported less blanking using 1080i, but I cannot test this.

"I wonder if using the Sony with the iris open isn't actually wasting the very thing that the Sony is so sought after for, its high cr? "

The situation described was where the brightness is needed to combat ambient light, which itself destroys the high CR. Ergo, it's not wasted because you wouldn't have seen it anyway, and the extra brightness in fact increases the on-screen CR.

[The black border could be a real issue for people who switch between inputs, since you might have to zoom in to fill the screen when you switch to HDMI, then zoom back out for other inputs. Zooming is done by a ring around the lens, and also interacts with the lens shift which might need to be readjusted as well.

I don't know if you will see the same issues with HDMI or DVI output from a set top box or DVD player, since I don't any other sources to try. WSR reported less blanking using 1080i, but I cannot test this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Earlier in this thread Ehuff and I discussed this problem as I ran into in with an HS51 last Wednesday. The black bars are " blanking". Optimistically there will be a "blanking " adjustment in the "factory menu" not the "service menu" which will allow adjustment of "blanking". Look back a few posts to find the access codes for " factory menu". As mentioned be careful in this area, write down all levels before adjusting.. Hey and let us know what you find. Good luck

The lack of a power zoom that the HS10 and HS20 provides is disappointing in the HS51 for those who plan on using HTPCs.

Originally posted by noah katz


The situation described was where the brightness is needed to combat ambient light, which itself destroys the high CR. Ergo, it's not wasted because you wouldn't have seen it anyway, and the extra brightness in fact increases the on-screen CR.

Aha! At first glance its sort of contradictory but I follow whats being said now, thanks for the clarification.
Paul

jschefdog:

You mentioned that you used a standard 'HDTV' timing for 1280x720 HDMI, but what if you chose a 1280x720 that was, say, not specific to HDTV and more common to something else?

ddingle:

I thought it was the service menu access code that was made known and not the factory menu access code. If the factory menu access code was found, did you find the blanking settings within the factory menu?

Originally posted by TheFerret
jschefdog:



ddingle:

I thought it was the service menu access code that was made known and not the factory menu access code. If the factory menu access code was found, did you find the blanking settings within the factory menu?

EHUFF posted a link to a site that described both "factory" and " service" menu access codes. factory service is something like "enter" "enter" "left arrow" "enter" I was hoping jschefdog would have a look to see if he can find the "blanking" adjustments as I am not going back to our installation until Tuesday or so.

Originally posted by jschefdog
The Bad News

I could not get 1 to 1 pixel mapping on the HDMI input.

... , but the B&W checkerboard background had become a uniform field of grey pixels.

... It also produces a large black border all the way around the image which obscures more than half of the taskbar.

I can understand the black border. But the field of grey pixels? How can this be? This means that the picture is interpolated or something? Isnt this as bad as using keystone?

Grrrrrr Sony.... This doesnt sound good at all!!

Originally posted by ted1001
I can understand the black border. But the field of grey pixels? How can this be? This means that the picture is interpolated or something? Isnt this as bad as using keystone?

Grrrrrr Sony.... This doesnt sound good at all!!

Forgive my naivete,but what negative effects does keystone introduce?

ddingle, yes, this inability to display b&w checkerboard makes me wonder as well. But, I think you need to realize he is talking about a 1-pixel by 1-pixel. I would take this to mean that any geometry conditions between the lens assy and the diachroic combiner block's forth-side would take and compress the image to a dimension smaller than a pixel--completely guessing here.

Originally posted by ddingle
Earlier in this thread Ehuff and I discussed this problem as I ran into in with an HS51 last Wednesday. The black bars are " blanking". Optimistically there will be a "blanking " adjustment in the "factory menu" not the "service menu" which will allow adjustment of "blanking". Look back a few posts to find the access codes for " factory menu". As mentioned be careful in this area, write down all levels before adjusting.. Hey and let us know what you find. Good luck
I got into both the Factory and Service menus. To get into the Factory menu, it seems you must get into the Service menu first, then click Enter,Enter,Left Arrow,Enter. See the link above for more details.

The Service menu does not add much to the menu. There is a W/B menu added at the bottom, which I assume means White Balance since it allows adjusting the Low, Medium, and High color temperatures. It also shows some more detail in the Info menu such as Firmware revisions. Other than that I didn't see additional menu items.

Getting into the Factory settings adds a Device menu which contains a lot of settings with cryptic names, the kind of stuff I have seen in other Service menus. I scanned through all of them but didn't find anything that looked like blanking controls, nothing close to the names mentioned above. If there is the way to change it, someone would probably need to get a service manual to figure out which controls affect it.

I did manage to take a couple of pictures to illustrate the difference between using the VGA connection to Input A, and the DVI to HDMI connection. Not the greatest quality, but it illustrates the effect. The attached image shows the lower left corner using VGA to Input A tweaked for 1 to 1 pixel mapping.

And here is the lower left corner after switching to the HDMI input connected to DVI out on the HTPC. As you can see, the checkerboard pattern is now solid gray and the corner markers are no longer visible due to the black border.

jschefdog, both of these are from your HTPC, one using the VGA (RGBHV to Input A) and the other DVI (DVI-D to the HDMI input)? Have you tried the same test pattern using the standard Windows 1280x720 resolution (with powerStrip not running) as opposed to a powerstrip-defined HDTV resolution?

As a side note, I thought PowerStrip could get one's videocard to produce an interlaced signal. Have you tried this, too?

Originally posted by GScott
Great catch. I knew it had to be something. Just for fun I scanned some of the more recent WSR reviews and found the following values for black level.

Sharp 12k .0035
Marantz 12S3 .0045
Yamaha 1100 .0033

These were on 85.3" wide Studiotechs. That puts the HS-51's black level up there with the best DLP's. This gives me hope that I may in fact be happy with this projector over my CRT.

Actually the HS51 will have a better black level than those pj, if you choose a screen size/gain which gives the same white level. The HS51's > 4,300: 1 dE < 5 calibrated on/off is the HIGHEST on/off ever measured by WSR for a digital pj.

For example :
96" wide Studiotek 130 will give 14.4 FtL with a black level of 0.00325 FtL
96" wide Greyhawk RS will give 10.5 FtL with a black level of 0.00235 FtL

I am a CRTer my self so the second option is the one I am personally considering.

Is there a new date for general availability confirmed now?

Well it finally showed up on Sony Canada's Website (http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=1000560). Looks like we get the USB port ("USB: Mini USB-B") and software ("Gamma Control Software (ImageDirector 2) "). Also, we get a 12 month factory warranty vs 2 years in the US.

MSRP $4,999.99. Owwww! At today's rates thats $4245 US! Sigh....

You can get it just before Christmas though:
The anticipated date of arrival is Dec 12, 2004
So now I have a big decision to make. Save $1000 US, get the ethernet capability and take my chances with the warranty or bend over and buy one in Canada? From all reports I'm sure this projector is the one I've been waiting for.

I'd love to hear from any fellow canucks also considering this PJ. Are you going to buy an HS51 from the states and save $ or pick up an HS50 here? My folks just moved back to Canada and still keep a PO box just across the border, south of BC. I wonder if I could use that as an address if I purchase it stateside?

I know very few have their hs51 already, but I thought I would ask this anyway...

Would a cable like this one (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/x1-cables.html)(one side HD15 vga and the other side component) work with the "input a" on the sony hs51???

Any thoughts? or input from owners....

RoninTech, is there any chance of finding a dealer in Montana? BTW, the USA-Canadian exchange rates sure have changed in the past couple of years. I remember them being more like Can$1.00 = US$0.65.

Spellbound, why would you want to feed Component into Input-A instead of using the Component input to begin with?

Originally posted by TheFerret
jschefdog, both of these are from your HTPC, one using the VGA (RGBHV to Input A) and the other DVI (DVI-D to the HDMI input)? Have you tried the same test pattern using the standard Windows 1280x720 resolution (with powerStrip not running) as opposed to a powerstrip-defined HDTV resolution?

As a side note, I thought PowerStrip could get one's videocard to produce an interlaced signal. Have you tried this, too?

Yes, these are both from the same HTPC with the same settings. The only difference is that the first used the VGA connection, the other the DVI to HDMI connection.

I don't think turning Powerstrip off would make a difference. I think it resets the graphics driver configuration for the resolution that you select. I don't know what the settings were before using Powerstrip. If someone can provide the standard Windows fV and fH values I can try it. I doubt it will help. The Powerstrip 1280x720 HDTV fV and fH values match those listed for Memory No. 10 on page 56 of the manual (the HDMI 720/60p preset). I'm guessing that Sync=SonG/Y means sync on green, but that box is not active in Powerstrip. Given that WSR reported the same issue, I think that's just how it works.

I tried to set Powerstrip to 1920i, but had some problems and gave up. Even if it did, it wouldn't be 1 to 1 pixel mapping so I doubt it matters.

Personally I find the image quality using Input A to be excellent once tweaked. I think I can live with it. I can't imagine how an all digital path would look better.

Originally posted by Spellbound
Would a cable like this one (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/x1-cables.html)(one side HD15 vga and the other side component) work with the "input a" on the sony hs51???
The Setup menu includes "Input A Signal Select" with values of Auto, Computer, Component, and Video GBR. So it sounds like it can be used as a second component input. I don't know how to tell for sure if a particular cable maps the connections correctly, but maybe there is some standard for this.

jschefdog, you are right. It would appear from pp.56-57 that the HDMI input was designed with the belief its only going to be used for consumer electronics for sources and not a computing device. This is a grave error on Sony's part. I may need to cancel my order and wait for someone to realize that digital video transport is not limited only to realms outside of computing.

I would say that all the manufacturers will be switching to HDMI only in the next generation of products. I sat through a training session with NAD the other day and they indicated they were going to delay introduction of their new line of receivers in order to integrate HDMI switching . It has more or less been agreed up by all the manufacturers to use HDMI only. Of course it has the advantage of carrying control and digital audio along with the video.

Not knocking HDMI, but rather the forced-blanking condition. That has nothing to do with HDMI that I am aware of.

If no software solution can fix HDMI issue then I hope there will be a firmware upgrade otherwise its a huge letdown.
I don't imagine myself getting a digital PJ and not able to feed it with digital signal.

You can feed it a digital signal, but you'll only see a sub-720P on the screen. :)

Can someone confirm that feeding 720P from a V880 via DVI/HDMI would produce the problematic border? I want to let a friend know who has the SOny on order.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Getting into the Factory settings adds a Device menu which contains a lot of settings with cryptic names, the kind of stuff I have seen in other Service menus. I scanned through all of them but didn't find anything that looked like blanking controls, nothing close to the names mentioned above. If there is the way to change it, someone would probably need to get a service manual to figure out which controls affect it.

To those freaking out. We need some patience here. Jschefdog is the only person to have reported going into the service menu. Simply because he didn't find blanking controls doesn't mean they aren't there. jschefdog, did you specifically try all the different factory settings to see if one was a blanking control? Until someone does a thorough review of all the service menu controls I'm not going to simply assume that the option isn't there. No offense to jschefdog, and thank you so far for your reports, but I think we need more time for others to get inside the PJ's brain and tinker before we put up the white flag.

Not freaking out. I stated there wasn't a definitive conclusion one way or another. Anyone with a unit on hand and access to the service/factory menus can freely report (preferably ASAP, please) whether or not there are blanking controls or not.

Some of us take it on a serious note to find the answer prior to receiving our ordered HS51. :) Helps with the restocking fee condition, LOL.

Also in dandaroy's thread he states that he is outputting 720p on a normal Panasonic DVD player via HDMI and the picture is still screwy. This is a MAJOR HDMI problem that needs to be corrected. Nobody with an HDMI output is going to be real happy with a large chunk of pixels gone. What about subtitles etc. ? What about set top HD cable boxes or HD DirecTV when you watch ESPN HD and can't get half the scores or updates scrolling along the bottom? In current form the HS51 doesn't sound like it can properly accept 720P via HDMI
at all.

This is not just an HTPC user problem and I'm an HTPC guy. However let's see a systematic combing over of the service menu before we say no corrections can be made on our end. If not, then we can go to Sony with torches and pitchforks.

Okay, the first person to comb through the service AND factory menus get's a cookie. :)

Blanking is not the only issue to address. Some users reported grey cross hatch pattern and thats really a concern. I want perfect pixel mapping like many of you.

Originally posted by THE_COW_IS_OK
Blanking is not the only issue to address. Some users reported grey cross hatch pattern and thats really a concern. I want perfect pixel mapping like many of you.
A 1x1 (pixel) checkerbox produced a gray condition on a 18" LCD PC monitor, and its connected via DVI-D. I would be curious to see separate 1xN patterns for horizontal and vertical alternating b&w lines.

I don't think it is cropping out the pic. I tested the overscan pattern and it shows a overscan of only 2 - 3%. It is only that the image is shrunk within the 1280x720 window.

Originally posted by dusk
Also in dandaroy's thread he states that he is outputting 720p on a normal Panasonic DVD player via HDMI and the picture is still screwy. This is a MAJOR HDMI problem that needs to be corrected. Nobody with an HDMI output is going to be real happy with a large chunk of pixels gone. What about subtitles etc. ? What about set top HD cable boxes or HD DirecTV when you watch ESPN HD and can't get half the scores or updates scrolling along the bottom? In current form the HS51 doesn't sound like it can properly accept 720P via HDMI
at all.

This is not just an HTPC user problem and I'm an HTPC guy. However let's see a systematic combing over of the service menu before we say no corrections can be made on our end. If not, then we can go to Sony with torches and pitchforks.

Actually as I recall our problem with the picture size or blanking on the HS51 was the same component input with two sources; an HDTivo and Sony DVD. We left the client with a overscanned DVD and and slight black edges on HDTivo. Does not seem to be limited to HDMI input. We go back tomorrow to see what can be done in the factory menu.

That's pretty interesting ddingle. If the problem isn't restricted to HDMI then this could very well be a 720P thing for Component & HDMI. Why? I couldn't begin to guess.

I'm very happy if one of us in this forum begins his review on his own HS51

This is pretty much the same as what we saw on the pre-production unit displayed in Stockholm in October. The 720p HD-material was displayed in a window with a 4" black frame around it (on an approx 108" wide image). 576p DVD-material seemed like it filled the area normally. I asked the rep about this and the obvious reply was that it was due to the preprod unit, it would of course be fixed in shipping units.

How good do you owners think the HS50/51 is at deinterlacing and scaling?

Originally posted by dandaroy
I don't think it is cropping out the pic. I tested the overscan pattern and it shows a overscan of only 2 - 3%. It is only that the image is shrunk within the 1280x720 window.

Possible that the first crop of PJ's sent out are going have different firmware than the first bulk shipment that hits the shores? So far we've had one person jump into the service menu so I'm waiting for ddingle to get his hands on the installed Sony tomorrow.

So this sounds like the same issue the HS10/20 has on the DVI port with an HTPC. Even thought their panels are 1388x768, you only get 1368x768 & the same black border. Very disappointing that they haven't addressed this. At least you can use 60 Hz instead of 56 Hz, though. ;)

Could those people "lucky" enough to have units also look to see what firm ware version they have and report it so we can tell if any revisions are made and when.
Thanks,
Bill

>>I don't think it is cropping out the pic. I tested the overscan pattern and it shows a overscan of only 2 - 3%. It is only that the image is shrunk within the 1280x720 window.

That was the first explanation I came up with. But the black border covered the lower part of the Desktop taskBar so I guess the problem is more complicated then that. In both cases,we have a problem.

Originally posted by Electron Mover
Could those people "lucky" enough to have units also look to see what firm ware version they have and report it so we can tell if any revisions are made and when.
Thanks,
Bill

You are not kidding. I was just informed that my unit that was supposed ship today has NO ETA. :mad: :mad:
I wish Sony would communicate better with their vendors as a supplier.

MMan, let's say that Sony gave convincing and accurate ETA information. I still would not put it beyond some resellers to just lie about ealier ETA dates in order to win sales over the competition. I do not mind the wait for a specific product's release, but I do mind a delivered flawed product.

Originally posted by TheFerret
MMan, let's say that Sony gave convincing and accurate ETA information. I still would not put it beyond some resellers to just lie about ealier ETA dates in order to win sales over the competition. I do not mind the wait for a specific product's release, but I do mind a delivered flawed product.

Agreed.

Originally posted by dusk
jschefdog, did you specifically try all the different factory settings to see if one was a blanking control?
I did not try changing all the factory settings since I had no idea what most of them are. As I said the names are pretty cryptic and I'm not familiar with service menus. There must be close to 150 different settings. I scanned through all the setting names but didn't see anything that looked like blanking controls. I also didn't see any appeared to be image size related. I tried changing a few that looked like they might affect the image position, but all I found was settings that shifted the image side to side. It did not change the image at all other than moving it, it did not shift relative to the blanking.

Even if you can remove the black borders, I still don't think you will get 1 to 1 pixel mapping. It appears that the HDMI input is processing the image in some way. In addition to the B&W checkerboard background becoming uniform gray, text looks different. It is a little thicker and smoother through the HDMI input.

I was also hoping to use an all digital path, but this issue would not prevent me from buying this projector for use with an HTPC. As I said, image quality using analog VGA connection is excellent once you tweak it. I had a chance to watch some HD WMV clips from the HTPC yesterday and the image was stunning. I see some minor issues with DVD playback from the HTPC, but this convinced me that these issues are not related to an analog connection, it's most likely the DVD software deinterlacing or scaling.

Originally posted by ddingle
Actually as I recall our problem with the picture size or blanking on the HS51 was the same component input with two sources; an HDTivo and Sony DVD. We left the client with a overscanned DVD and and slight black edges on HDTivo. Does not seem to be limited to HDMI input. We go back tomorrow to see what can be done in the factory menu.
As reported in WSR, on the S-Video and Component input I get about 5% overscan. It appears to be using all the pixels, it is just scaling the image too large to fit the panels so the edges are cut off. Although excessive, it is not that uncommon for video displays to have some overscan. If I switch to Input A connected to a HTPC, the image remains the same size, but there is no overscan. I can see all 1280x720 pixels coming from the HTPC.

HDMI is different. When you switch to it, the visible image is smaller because there is a black border all the way around which is hiding some of the pixels. In order to fill the screen you need to change the zoom. This is different from the other inputs, when you switch between them the visible image size does not change even though the level of overscan may change.

Hope springs eternal. Hopefully ddingle will give us a report tomorrow once he's done tweaking. It would seem odd for them not to include the blanking controls.

Also at this juncture I recommend everyone go back and read Evan's comments in his Projector Central review of the HS51. He mentions that the DVDO iScan HS+ eliminates the overscan loss and presents a perfect 720p picture. Specifically 4th to last paragraph.

I use an HTPC and even if I have to use analog VGA input for 1:1 mapping and no blanking, it will be better than what I had before with my last projector. I imagine the VGA input from a computer looks stunning on the HS51. We should of course still attempt for 1:1 mapping on the digital input with no blanking though. But, I for one am very happy with the VGA finding. Also, like someone said before, we need to be patient and get these units into more hands of avs people.

I read somewhere that over vga that aspect ratio is locked to 4:3. Is that true?

Originally posted by Ohlson
I read somewhere that over vga that aspect ratio is locked to 4:3. Is that true?
Not true. If you set the PC to a 4x3 image size such as 640x480, then you will get a 4x3 image with black bars on the sides. But if you feed it 1280x720, it fills the panels and uses all the pixels.

Originally posted by dusk
He mentions that the DVDO iScan HS+ eliminates the overscan loss and presents a perfect 720p picture.

Well, if this is true, then it's promising information. Does the DVDO Scaler output standard 720p timings? Next step is we need to test matching the HTPC output to the DVDO timings.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I did not try changing all the factory settings since I had no idea what most of them are. As I said the names are pretty cryptic and I'm not familiar with service menus. There must be close to 150 different settings. I scanned through all the setting names but didn't see anything that looked like blanking controls. I also didn't see any appeared to be image size related. I tried changing a few that looked like they might affect the image position, but all I found was settings that shifted the image side to side. It did not change the image at all other than moving it, it did not shift relative to the blanking.

By any chance, would the Image Director software have any kind of controls for image size and/or blanking in it?

Also, I haven't seen anyone mention what (if anything) is available if they attempt to access the projector via ethernet. Perhaps there are some controls via a built-in web server interface? It's been a while since I've perused the manual...

Originally posted by dusk
Hope springs eternal. Hopefully ddingle will give us a report tomorrow once he's done tweaking. It would seem odd for them not to include the blanking controls.

Also at this juncture I recommend everyone go back and read Evan's comments in his Projector Central review of the HS51. He mentions that the DVDO iScan HS+ eliminates the overscan loss and presents a perfect 720p picture. Specifically 4th to last paragraph.

The HDMI issue (assuming there is one as we need to learn more about this) would certainly be a show stopper for me.

IIRC in the review it talked about needing the external scaler for NON HDMI/DVI sources because of scaling of 480i/p.

On a related note - I don't see how HDMI output from the scaler at 720p could possibly be any different, pixel mapping-wise, than HDMI output from a DVD or STB. 720p out is 720p out. In any event, the attractiveness of the HS51 to me is its low price, as I plan to use it as a hold-me-over until 1080p is more affordable. So even if it turned out that somehow the 720p output from the external scaler solved the pixel mapping issue, the additional cost would not make this pj an attractive option for me any longer.

I guess I read the ProjectorCentral review differently in regards to overscan.

In addition to the scaling artifacts on standard definition material through the analog inputs, there is some picture loss due to overscan. The loss amounts to about 5% of the image on each side of the picture. This is more than is typical, as 2% to 3% is more the norm.

In order to get the best image performance, owners will want to avoid using the component, S-video, and composite video inputs ports for standard definition sources whenever possible. For DVD, one way to avoid it is to use a DVD player like V's Bravo D2, and output the signal in 720p via DVI. You will need a cable with DVI on one end and HDMI on the other, or a DVI/HDMI adapter to achieve this interface. But these accessories are available from outside suppliers, it is easy to do, and the picture quality is superb. This solves both the scaling and the overscan problem at the same time.

The better but more costly alternative is to use the DVDO iScan HD+ video processor as a front end to the HS51. This unit will upscale all of your standard definition sources, including DVD, VCR, laserdisc, television signals, etc., from 480-line format to 720p and deliver them to the HS51 via DVI. It will also pass through all of your HDTV signals, including any that are HDCP flagged for copy protection. This eliminates both the scaling issue and the overscan loss, giving you 100% of the picture on the screen.

I took these comments to mean that he did not observe any overscan when using the HDMI input, only the analog inputs. Hence the "100% of the picture" comment.

Seemingly in direct conflict, however, is WSR's review that said
RGBHV 720p and DVI 720p signals appeared to be directly pixel-mapped with the sides blanked to give the same appearance as overscan.
If I understand Bill Cushman's comments correctly, that would mean that the full image is shown vertically, but slightly cropped horizontally.

I can't see any magic that the iScan and the Bravo V2 could be doing over the DVI/HDMI input over and above what another DVI output capable device would do.

Is there any possibility that the overscan that has been observed by members of this forum is a result of some setting from the source? The observations that have been posted lean towards vertical cropping, and not horizontal cropping.

These findings are different than either the PC or the WSR review, aren't they?

I'm not sure if this will be of use or not but I got out the service manual for my Sony HD-RPTV and here are the only parameters I could find for blanking.

HBLK horizontal blanking
LBLK left
RBLK right
VBLK vertical
TBLK top
BBLK bottom

If anyone sees anything in the service or factory menu that looks suspicious I can cross check to see if it happens to be in this manual. I looked around on Google today but couldn't find anyone selling the HS51 service manual.

Might this have something to do with our long wait?

Sony Flat Panel Shortage (http://news.com.com/Sony+unprepared+for+flat-panel+TV+demand/2100-1041_3-5468413.html?tag=nefd.top)

Sure that's not specifically projection panels but it may be related.

Someone asked about the Firmware version. Here is what I found on mine.

ROM Version 01.01/11.01
SC ROM Version 01.01
IP ROM Version 01.02

To get this information, you must activate the service menu.

1. Click Enter, Enter, Up, Down, Enter
2. Click Up for Yes when prompted to enter service menu.
3. Click Menu then scroll down the Information.

To leave the service menu, repeat step 1, then click Up when prompted to return to User menu.

I installed the ImageDirector software on my PC. It doesn't seem to include options for anything other than adjusting the Gamma. There was no other sofware on the CD. The Help and Manual indicates to connect the computer to the PC using USB, no mention of a LAN connection in either the Help or the menus.

This raises the question of what is the LAN connector for? I plugged it into my router but it did not show up in the list of attached devices. I get lights on both ends, but it doesn't seem to be connecting. There are Network Settings in the menu, but you cannot change the values. The menu indicates it is set for DHCP, but it also lists an IP Address of 169.254.108.103 even if it isn't connected to anything. In the manual it says:

"You cannot change the network settings with this projector. For information on networking, consult with qualified Sony personel."

That is a private, non-routable IP address meant for LAN use only. No telling what Snoy plans for it. It would be cool, though, if they could use it to access and update firmware, adjust controls, etc.

Originally posted by jschefdog
This raises the question of what is the LAN connector for? I plugged it into my router but it did not show up in the list of attached devices. I get lights on both ends, but it doesn't seem to be connecting. There are Network Settings in the menu, but you cannot change the values. The menu indicates it is set for DHCP, but it also lists an IP Address of 169.254.108.103 even if it isn't connected to anything. In the manual it says:

"You cannot change the network settings with this projector. For information on networking, consult with qualified Sony personel." [/B]

Try cycling power with the LAN cable plugged in. For the record I'm just guessing :). Can you tell from your router whether it gave out an IP address via DHCP?

If you still can't give it an IP, try downloading the freeware Ethereal LAN Sniffer (http://www.ethereal.com/) and plug the PJ's ethernet into your PC and sniff the connection as it comes up. Post back what you see.

Originally posted by BigScreen
This eliminates both the scaling issue and the overscan loss, giving you 100% of the picture on the screen.

I believe the "overscan loss" he (and Bill Cushman) are talking about is another issue. As I mentioned earlier, I don't see how a 720p signal from a video processor would be treated ANY different by the HS51 (or any pj for that matter) than a 720p signal from a DVD player or STB. Couple this with Bill Cushman's notes on the subject, and the fact that all my viewing would be over DVI/HDMI and this lack of true 1:1 pixel mapping is a significant issue for me.

"Sure that's not specifically projection panels but it may be related."

It's in no way related.

Hello,

I posted this question on page 56. No reply until now:
"Hope this hasn't been answered earlier in this thread...
The Sony manual on page 56+57 mentions the different supported signals when feeding the Sony via HDMI input.
720/60p for NTSC and 720/50p for PAL are accepted. The same goes for 1080i. If I check for the VGA input the only support I can see for 1280x720 is 60Hz. Does that mean, that if I use a HTPC with a MP-1 mod. and feed the projector a 720p signal via my RGBHV to VGA cable, PAL will be only accepted with 1280x720@ 60Hz ??? NO 50Hz support ?
So the only way to feed a overscan free image for PAL would be with the HDMI input ? It would be a shame if I couldn't use my MP-1 modded graphics card for PAL dvd's...."

What we are seeing now , based on initial observations,is that the HDMI input is not allowing 1:1 mapping. What does this actually mean to people that would like to use this projector for PAL ?

If the VGA input only accepts 1280x720 @ 60HZ, I do have 1:1 mapping but no 50Hz for PAL. If I use the HDMI input I have 720p@50Hz but no 1:1 mapping.. LOL

I hope users will find a work around....

Can someone please try feeding the HS50/51 a 1280x720@50Hz signal and check if it's accepted or not.

Thanks,

Anthony

Lovingdvd, I do agree with you in that this blanking is undesirable, unwanted, and prohibits one from seeing 1280x720 in its entirety. With the previous panel resolution (on the HS20) there was a way around the matter because the end result of the blanking still left at least 1280x720 viewable.

I do think the HS51 is performing 1:1 mapping, but the fact that blanking is still being introduced effectively hides the periphery, which is unwanted by people like ourselves. The condition for which the HS51 resides in does not allow one to actually see 1280x720 of content area, which to me means its <720P viewable and a sub-HDTV if used in this manner.

Sony, you're a jack ass for not realizing this AND insuring it never made it to production, let alone into the marketplace. If the blanking cannot be removed, its an 'order canceled' condition for me.

So, Ferret, using VGA is unnacceptable to you? You think the D/A->A/D conversion loses so much quality as to make the signal unusable for HTPC?

And do you further believe that this is an issue that has no possibility of ever being addressed with a firmware update?

reaper

But the whole point of having a HDMI connection is using it!
And as someone said here, Sony doesnt release firmwares.

has anyone stated whether or not the sony will take 720p from component input 1:1? i'll be running both an xbox and dvd player, both through component, and don't want to have to zoom in and out when switching between the two. it really kind of amazes me that sony has delayed this projector over a month, took away the DVI input, only to leave a faulty HDMI. but, from the few people to have production models, SDE sounds like a totally different story than the CEDIA reviews and WSR review, which is defineately a good sign.

Going by jschefdog's screen captures, it appears that the left side of the screen is getting almost 60-pixels blanked out. If this is the case for both sides that would equate to almost 10% of the horizontal resolution being blanked out. This is just from eyeballing the pictures he posted, and the blanked out pixels on the bottom seem to be less, but maybe the same percentage.

Jschefdog, is there anyway we could get you to count the number of pixels being blanked out on all four sides (L, R, Top, Bottom)? How about captures of the Factory menu options?

Is it possible that the projector is detecting something other than 720p or perhaps it's not reading the 60Hz correctly? Maybe it's trying to do PAL stuff. I have no clue, just throwing out some ideas. Given that Evan at PC has said the DVDO does 720p perfectly 1:1 then maybe it has to do with the signal.(Not taking that as gospel however). Moreover, is the DVDO sending a different way than both a HTPC video card and a set top DVD player?

I counted the pixels from jschefdog's photos.

Blanked on the HDMI-input:
~ 32 pixels on the sides
~ 17 pixels at the the top/bottom

That is a total of 2176 pixels wasted on blanking.

Number of pixels on the panel: 1280x720 = 921 600.
Percent wasted = 0.24 percent

How much is 32 px / 17 px in inches on a 100" screen?
Well, ~ 2.2" black border on the sides. (That is around 5.5 cm.)

Ppl with HS51:a: Dig in those service and factorie menus! DIG!

:)

Excuse my comments / questions if they are stupid. I don't yet have this projector, it is still on order.

1. Regarding border on 720p input. Could this be a brand conflict with non-Sony devices? I know Sony sells an HDMI dvd player for $299. I'm wondering if that player will have this problem. I've seen in the past where certain projectors and certain dvd players have compatibility issues. While breaking compatibility with competition equipment is a low and dirty trick, I wouldn't put it beyond them.

2. As for firmware corrections, that depends. A few years back I had a Sony P9000ES digital pre-pro that could be upgraded by firmware changes. The first few firmware changes were free, but later they became a paid option. Now I have a Krell Showcase pre-pro and can't vouch for the firmware status on the Sony pre-pro. In fact, I should probably check to see if Krell has done an upgrade.....

Originally posted by ted1001
I counted the pixels from jschefdog's photos.

Blanked on the HDMI-input:
~ 32 pixels on the sides
~ 17 pixels at the the top/bottom

That is a total of 2176 pixels wasted on blanking.

Number of pixels on the panel: 1280x720 = 921 600.
Percent wasted = 0.24 percent

How much is 32 px / 17 px in inches on a 100" screen?
Well, ~ 2.2" black border on the sides. (That is around 5.5 cm.)

Ppl with HS51:a: Dig in those service and factorie menus! DIG!

:)
I guess taskbars, stock-tickers, score-tickers, subtitles, etc. mean nothing to you. And what you counted and what I counted seem to be grossly different.

This 720p problem is not limited to DVD players. It shows the same blanking when I change my HD feed from 1080i to 720p

Originally posted by dltf90
Excuse my comments / questions if they are stupid. I don't yet have this projector, it is still on order.

1. Regarding border on 720p input. Could this be a brand conflict with non-Sony devices? I know Sony sells an HDMI dvd player for $299. I'm wondering if that player will have this problem. I've seen in the past where certain projectors and certain dvd players have compatibility issues. While breaking compatibility with competition equipment is a low and dirty trick, I wouldn't put it beyond them.

2. As for firmware corrections, that depends. A few years back I had a Sony P9000ES digital pre-pro that could be upgraded by firmware changes. The first few firmware changes were free, but later they became a paid option. Now I have a Krell Showcase pre-pro and can't vouch for the firmware status on the Sony pre-pro. In fact, I should probably check to see if Krell has done an upgrade.....

TheFerret: Huh? Im "in line" for a HS50. And this isssue may be a dealbreaker for me. I want ppl that find this to be a issue to search for settings that may fix this.

I dunno what you mean with your post.

I can show how I counted the pixels.... just give me one minute and Ill attach the pic.

HERE:
http://edvision.se.loopiadns.com/blank.gif

Oh, sorry. Misinterpreted your reply. Sorry.

I could be wrong but this still looks like some type of misused overscan control. That pattern looks like the overscan pattern I have seen on my Avia DVD. From the picture provided it looks like Sony is adding a 5% overscan on the HDMI input. Maybe we should be looking for an overscan control in the factory menu and not some type of blanking control. Just a thought.

GScott, that overscan pattern on the Avia disk measure percentage, no? This pattern, which is a Windows Bitmap measures actual pixels. If overscan was at play then the image when switched back and forth betweej the HDMI and RGB inputs would have seen a slightly larger/smaller pattern, I think.

I suppose a new test pattern where colored perimeter borders that are 5-pixels (or even 10) could determine this, as can actually measuring between two points on the screen when input-flipping.

Originally posted by reaper
So, Ferret, using VGA is unnacceptable to you? You think the D/A->A/D conversion loses so much quality as to make the signal unusable for HTPC?

And do you further believe that this is an issue that has no possibility of ever being addressed with a firmware update?

reaper

I'm not Ferret, but these are my thoughts:

1. I just wired my upcomfing HT room, then put the ceiling in. There is DVI/HDMI, no VGA cable.. So, for me, HDMI works or no HS50.

2. Firmware..? I hope, but I'm not very optimistic...

Originally posted by ted1001
But the whole point of having a HDMI connection is using it!
And as someone said here, Sony doesnt release firmwares.

I am not buying an HDMI port. I am buying a projector. The end goal is to get a beautiful image on the wall in front of me. I think we sometimes lose sight of that here.

The question was directly addressed to achieving that end goal. Does VGA 1280x720 look significantly worse than HDMI?

reaper, RGBHV is fine as the best analog transport, and I use it on my CRT projector. The whole idea of all-digital domain with a digital projector is to eliminate any analog segment if possible. And even if I felt RGBHV was fine, I had planned on using both inputs.

In either case, its not really a problem of analog vs. digital in terms of input signal, because someone already noted that the analog Component input has the exact same problem as the HDMI input. :)

I just want to be able to use all 1280 columns and all 720 rows. Had I wanted less, I would have concidered a less-resolution projector.

I understand the concept behind going all digital. Theoretically, it is the best option and I agree, highly desirable.

I agree that it is a big dissappointment that we lose an input on the projector. I hadn't thought of it that way before. And if component has the same problems, that's definitely a pain. I don't want text cut off at the bottom of my screen :(.

I guess I am coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't have a projector yet. I don't want the VB, white flashes etc that are found in the AE700. I am trying to understand if this is a deal breaker for someone who doesn't have a projector at all. I can see why someone who has a projector might not upgrade because of this. But if I could buy this projector and get an image using VGA that is 98% as clean as I would have achieved with HDMI, and see all 1280x720 pixels; then maybe I can live with this one fault of the HS51.

I want to know: Is there a way to enjoy this projector for HTPC, console gaming, DVD and high def programming? If there is and it just isn't the absolute best (HDMI) method available on the market today, maybe I will overlook that one problem.

So, it looks like you can see the entire image if you send it:

1280x720 over VGA
1080i over component
1080i over HDMI ?

I know these may not be the 100% best solution that *should* be available for this unit. But it seems as though I could use a VGA cable on my HTPC and send 1080i from a dvd player or set top box and see the entire image. Is that correct?

reaper

Here is a good example. Let's say I want to watch the Atlanta Falcons (football for the uninitiated) this Sunday in HD and on the HS51. I will hope that the scores are not too chopped off as the score-banner sits along the top edge of the screen. Now, Fox is broadcasting in 720P.

The idea that I should take a 720P broadcast and have the STB output it at 1080i just so that it can deinterlace and scale back to 720P is simple asinine. But this is exactly what one will have to do, or live with truncated scorecard banners.

Also, what if someone finished their theater in anticipation of a digital and ran a DVI or HDMI cable and not a VGA cable? SOL for them says Sony. LOL And don't even think about bringing up a channel guide is trying to decipher the clipped channel-numbers on the left side. :)

Now, if you can adapt and are willing to tolerate potential issues of either using RGBHV for your pseudo-digital projector, or your forced interlacing artifact-ridden entertainment (being faceteous, here), this might be your best bet for the money.

There are three people in the US of A with this projector in their home and none of them could find the adjustment that was previously foundin older models. Did Sony go out of their way to better hide these adjustments, and if so why.

Conspiracy Theory! Sorry, just having fun with this reply. Not trying to talk anyone out of their purchasing the unit, but ranting on why I may have to do without ... and that's absurd. Imagine a car where you could only buy one kind of tire for it and learn this the day you go to sign on the dotted line.

Reaper,
I feed my current projector 1080i from both my Panny S97 DVD player and my digital cable box. I think the picture looks better at 1080i vs 720p even though I have a native 720p projector (ESPN and Fox both broadcast in 720p too). I think you need to trust your own eyes on this one. I dont see this as a concession.

While Sony has made a mistake in regards to 720p (one that should be fixed) I would suggest that people look at 1080i as the quality is superb.

Andy

I guess I see a bit of Andy's argument and a bit of Ferret's argument. I think it's a problem and a pain and I hope it gets fixed somehow. However, at the end of the day, I am thinking I may still buy the projector anyways. Many people have stated that 1080i from their set top box looks better than 720p for some reason. Boy I wish I didn't have this issue to contend with though.

reaper

Had a look at HDMI on my HS20 using an HTPC. The Nvidia cards can use "underscan" to display the whole of the desktop within the blanked off area. This results in a resolution of 1177x662 - I suspect this would be similar on the HS50/51 so at least we should be able to see the whole of the display area if only at a lower resolution.

Not ideal but better than having the edges cut off.

Checked (albeit cursory) the HS20 factory/service menus as well, nothing there that I could see that would adjust the blanking and by all accounts the blanking problem is still a bone of contention for HS20 owners and was never addressed by Sony in any way (and remember, the HS20 has been out for quite a while).
Paul

Imagine if it affected both 1080i and 720p. That would be an even major issue. Once again Sony should adress this (they probably wont and will still sell a ton of these), but 1080i via HDMI should look superb as a workaround.
Andy

" I don't want the VB, white flashes etc that are found in the AE700. I am trying to understand if this is a deal breaker for someone who doesn't have a projector at all."

Well, therein lies the rub, huh?

I'd say this --> If you watch enough HD or do enough upscaling on your own, the 720p issue on the Sony ought well to be a deallbreaker. It's going to be simply maddening to deal with. The only apparent fix right now is to push out 1080i all the time. I sometimes get lazy and do this on my LCD panel, but I almost always realize it and then switch the Tivo to 720p (for 720p content). I'd think on a giant screen, it will take great 720p and make it mediocre in a hurry.

As far as the Pansonic, there's a good chance the vertical banding won't bother you. But obviously, no chance the white flashes won't.

This is certainly a conundrum -- again -- for those people without a projector and fence sitting.

The Rogo Meter (tm) leans back toward the Panasonic. It will fill the gap until 1080p for less cash. But the premium is on a good dealer, an understanding of warranty service, etc. If I recall, another nice thing about the Panasonic is easy choice of locations for mounting...

I'm probably now skipping this generation of projectors entirely as it'll be March before I can really enjoy one and only 6-8 months before the next ones are in production.... But I am very confounded by Sony's bug, especially given the delays.

Mark, Rogo Meter? Amusing. :)

Actually, doesn't the Panasonic do some blanking of 720p on the HDMI port as well?

Why does the rogo meter (tm) lean towards the AE700 given the white flashes and lesser contrast?

Ugh. Why can't this decision just be easy!? You'd think that knowing more would make the decision easier. I think the more knowledge I gain, the more difficult it is to make a decision. I need to drink about 30 beers this weekend and then just buy something.

reap

He said it was leaning back towards the AE700, bt not necessarily in the AE700 terratory. It could have been nailed all the way over and is not half-way back towards the Panny. :)

Reaper,
Just buy something because the longer you wait the longer you go without watching all the fabulous HD and DVD content. Every product has its shortcomings. I just purchased a Samsung 5085 DLP tv for my other video room and the price dropped by $600 (after the 30 days of course). Thats enough to give me a headache :)

30 beers sounds good though or maybe some jack and cokes. If you do that you may end up with 2 projectors.
Andy

TheFerret,

Thanks. That helped. You suck! Hahahaa

I only suck the JD&Coke through a straw. Helps to keep the air out of the alcohol stream.

It defnitely hits you quicker that way. Of course when you befriend the bartender you need a little air every now and then.

In my HS51, 720p yields a smaller image, but nothing gets chopped off. Overscan is only 2%. It is just that the entire image get shrunk and fits inside a smaller window than the screen.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Here is a good example. Let's say I want to watch the Atlanta Falcons (football for the uninitiated) this Sunday in HD and on the HS51. I will hope that the scores are not too chopped off as the score-banner sits along the top edge of the screen. Now, Fox is broadcasting in 720P.

The idea that I should take a 720P broadcast and have the STB output it at 1080i just so that it can deinterlace and scale back to 720P is simple asinine. But this is exactly what one will have to do, or live with truncated scorecard banners.

Also, what if someone finished their theater in anticipation of a digital and ran a DVI or HDMI cable and not a VGA cable? SOL for them says Sony. LOL And don't even think about bringing up a channel guide is trying to decipher the clipped channel-numbers on the left side. :)

Now, if you can adapt and are willing to tolerate potential issues of either using RGBHV for your pseudo-digital projector, or your forced interlacing artifact-ridden entertainment (being faceteous, here), this might be your best bet for the money.

There are three people in the US of A with this projector in their home and none of them could find the adjustment that was previously foundin older models. Did Sony go out of their way to better hide these adjustments, and if so why.

Conspiracy Theory! Sorry, just having fun with this reply. Not trying to talk anyone out of their purchasing the unit, but ranting on why I may have to do without ... and that's absurd. Imagine a car where you could only buy one kind of tire for it and learn this the day you go to sign on the dotted line.

Since we dont have any HDTV here in Sweden and wont have any the next coming years; I will most probably buy a Denon 2910 DVD player and upscale through HDMI to 1080i for films and in that case this really should'nt be an issue for me should it? ( I still belive it should be fixed, just to point that out)

Next question, has someone tried to scale to 1080i through their HTCP and see if that workes?

Originally posted by Havocsi
Next question, has someone tried to scale to 1080i through their HTCP and see if that workes?

I don't think anyone has tried this but someone earlier successfully got 1280x720 to work with no blanking using the VGA input. I will probably just run DVI out from my HTPC and then use a DVI-VGA adaptor for the time being.

Why not an HD15 to HD15 vga cable into input A?

What retailers had availability dates?

Since we dont have any HDTV here in Sweden and wont have any the next coming years

OT: Well, we'll have HDTV sooner than you think :) Canal Digital is starting at least on HD channel next year and we already have HD1 (former Euro1080) :D SVT (The national Swedish broadcasting corp) is starting test transmissions next year and it's not unlikely that we will be able to see the winter Olympics 2006 and Soccer world cup the same year in HDTV.

BTW: The HDMI bug is definitely a deal breaker for me.

Please see my post regarding Sony recalling all 1800 HS51's that have shipped.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476441

Originally posted by emailists
Please see my post regarding Sony recalling all 1800 HS51's that have shipped.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476441

Ay Carumba!

Originally posted by rogo
As far as the Pansonic, there's a good chance the vertical banding won't bother you. But obviously, no chance the white flashes won't.

The Rogo Meter (tm) leans back toward the Panasonic. It will fill the gap until 1080p for less cash. But the premium is on a good dealer, an understanding of warranty service, etc. If I recall, another nice thing about the Panasonic is easy choice of locations for mounting...

I'm probably now skipping this generation of projectors entirely as it'll be March before I can really enjoy one and only 6-8 months before the next ones are in production.... But I am very confounded by Sony's bug, especially given the delays.

Well since I've good respect for the Rogo Meter (tm) its needle might push me onto the Panasonic lawn - though the white flashes would be my big bugaboo- . I'm just tired of researching and changing my discursive mind. Buy it and sell it next Sept. maybe.

Of course if I don't like it I can always blame Mark.:D

ted

Originally posted by TheFerret
Jschefdog, is there anyway we could get you to count the number of pixels being blanked out on all four sides (L, R, Top, Bottom)? How about captures of the Factory menu options?
The black border appears all the way around, but wider on the sides. I could try to count the pixels, but the count ted1001 posted from the photos I posted sounds about right.

Doing a capture of all the factory menu items would be difficult because they only display one at a time. When you enter factory mode, it adds a Device menu at the bottom of the main menu. This button opens a menu with about 6 categories (A/D, Picture, IP, other...). I could get a picture of that. But when you pick a category, it displays the first setting as a single line. You can use left/right to adjust, or up/down to change to the next setting. As I said there are lots of them and nothing looked like blank, or BLK, or BLNK, or size, or SIZ. I have seen these type of adjustments in the service menu on my CRT, but not on this PJ. There may be adjustments that affect this, but I don't think the name indicate blanking or size.

hi everyone


i had just decided on the hs50 over the 700 and now this, first vb and flashes on the panny and i thought i pay the extra cash for the sony(the perfect PJ) but noooo now the sony has a hdmi problem and i will use a panny dvd-s97 with hdmi.

people mention that with 1080i the cropping is less, how much less is it and is it such a big difference between 720p and 1080i.

thanks in advance

I hope the "recalling" is true and that this issue will be fixed, otherwise I think you will have to come up with sollutions for the problem yourself. Like using a HTPC with TheaterTek, then you can resize the movie yourself to fit the actual pictures at 720p so you see all information and then zoom out a little on the sony to get it fully into the viewing area. Not handsome but it would work...

Originally posted by TheFerret
Here is a good example. Let's say I want to watch the Atlanta Falcons (football for the uninitiated) this Sunday in HD and on the HS51. I will hope that the scores are not too chopped off as the score-banner sits along the top edge of the screen.

Not to diminish your consternation over the cropping issue, but I would imagine that most broadcast programs (and probably DVD's as well) are produced with at least some overscan in mind.

I don't have HD right now, so I can't say how such programs (like football games) are done, but my NTSC TV was set for a huge amount of overscan (almost 10%) by a less-than-conscientious repair guy, and I don't have major problems with football games and news tickers. While some of the graphics are obscured, the scores aren't, and the text of the news ticker is rarely off the edge of the visible area.

The toughest test, I think, is probably NASCAR races. The ticker that goes across the top of the screen is often quite obscured for me, so that may be a problem for this projector.

Hey, I just noticed that the latest Nvida drivers dated Nov 9 in the what's new section says:

Added support for using HDTV over DVI connectors

Maybe someone with a Nvidia card, HTPC, and HS50/51 can test? Found out about the info here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=475746

Recall?
My dealer hasn't herd of one. She said that she has received many calls about this, and has emailed her distributor to find out if there is one.
Al

There is NO recall. Sony has denied such claims. Let's not get carried away by rumours.

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Recall?
My dealer hasn't herd of one. She said that she has received many calls about this, and has emailed her distributor to find out if there is one.
Al

I'll run the edid on my 6800U tonite so see what modes show up. I'm using the latest beta drivers off their official site.

great darkwire, please report the listed edid modes here.

Can someone at least write down what items are in ther service menu and what the default values are?

Someone else might be able to decypher these acrynms for the rest of us and determine to change $%#@ to 2 instead of 15.

Just wondering.

Originally posted by dandaroy
In my HS51, 720p yields a smaller image, but nothing gets chopped off. Overscan is only 2%. It is just that the entire image get shrunk and fits inside a smaller window than the screen. Well if this is the case then we are not talking about video blanking. This is even worse. This means that feeding 1280x720 in this troubled manner yields an effective lower resolution. I do not see how this could be considered 1:1 mapping, either, as you cannot map 1280 distinc pixels on a row to 1280 distinc locations on the screen. Either some pixels are not mapped, or they are sharing the same position.

More and more than seems like its scaling the signal down to something like 1200x680, or there abouts. This would suggest there is a scaler issue.
Originally posted by emailists
Please see my post regarding Sony recalling all 1800 HS51's that have shipped.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476441 Can someone else contact their dealers and confirm this? Not doubting the poster, but I would be less than surprised if his dealer wasn't being truthful. I emailed my dealer, and also contacted a couple of B&M dealers asking them to contact Sony about this issue, and also forwarded (at their request) the relavent URL's.

Unfortunately, though, I found no one in Atlanta that actually had a working demo unit to rip into.

"Well since I've good respect for the Rogo Meter (tm) its needle might push me onto the Panasonic lawn - though the white flashes would be my big bugaboo-"

Thanks for the respect. :)

Obviously, you'd need a Panasonic minus the white flashes to even contemplate that projector. Hence the need for a good dealer.

I finally got back out to our HS51 installation today.
1. I found the problem with our HDMI connection a bad gender changer(DVI) from Geffen. Actually I had to go through two of them at our distributor before getting a good one.
2. HDMI at 720p from an HDTivo showed the same border as component 720p
3. Switching to 1080i on the HDtivo eliminated the problem. At least as far as both the DVD component input and the either a 1080i component or 1080i HDMI connection looking basically the same size.
4, Any other variables are not going to be noticed by this client,so until Sony finds some way to improve the 720p I am going to let this one go as is. Great picture!!
5.I looked through the service and factory menus for some time and did not find anything obvious to adjust. My Sony rep has a copy of the service manual so I should be able to get one in the near future. Messing with it now would be guessing at best.
6. I did notice that the lens assembly seemed loose in the cabinet. I could push on it and the picture would move up when push from underneath,somewhat disconcerting,but it is stable
7. I did mention all this to a Sony service rep and he is aware of the problem since Bill Cushman mentioned it in WSR. He has communicated to Japan
8. On a positive note the HDMI input has a direct access infrared code. No going to component and then up one input to access DVI as on the HS20
The picture looks great as is. We are going to wait until Window shades are installed and then we are going to set up the gray scale to complete the project. Good luck.

Originally posted by rogo
Obviously, you'd need a Panasonic minus the white flashes to even contemplate that projector. Hence the need for a good dealer.

I am swaying to the strategy of spending less now and more later - not a tactic I'm used to - had to have the best Now (within the limits of reason of course) - ah but I was so much older then. ;)
I think when comparing things at this price point it arrives at a leap of faith - fortunately there *are* users who are having good experiences. As long as I don't take my work home with me I might overlook many of the quibbles and enjoy the movie - which is what its mostly about anyway.

ted

Originally posted by ddingle
My Sony rep has a copy of the service manual so I should be able to get one in the near future.
Great!

More like Great Despair. :)

Originally posted by ddingle
2. HDMI at 720p from an HDTivo showed the same border as component 720p
3. Switching to 1080i on the HDtivo eliminated the problem. At least as far as both the DVD component input and the either a 1080i component or 1080i HDMI connection looking basically the same size.
4, Any other variables are not going to be noticed by this client,so until Sony finds some way to improve the 720p I am going to let this one go as is. Great picture!!
8. On a positive note the HDMI input has a direct access infrared code. No going to component and then up one input to access DVI as on the HS20
The picture looks great as is. We are going to wait until Window shades are installed and then we are going to set up the gray scale to complete the project. Good luck.

From the discussions I've read here, it seems the "solution" the 720p problem is to use 1080i instead. Since some suggest that 1080i is superior to 720p anyway, even for native 720p sources, would most users be happy using the 1080i option on their sources?

I plan on buying the HS51 and using an HDTivo for HDTV and digital TV via HDMI, I guess using the 1080i option on the HDTivo (currently use 480p on old projector). On the XBOX and DVD player, I was planning on using the component connection (switched through my receiver). I currently have a 4-year old Sanyo projector and a 4:3 screen, but plan on getting a new 16:9 screen for the HS51 (I assume the XBOX can only use a 4:3 aspect ratio, so we'll have to live with that).

If it makes sense, I'll also get a new DVD player that will output 1080i through component -- any suggestions? Would there be a big difference between component and HDMI for 1080i DVD output on the HS51? I guess I'd need an HDMI switch for the latter if I use HDMI for the HDTivo...

For these planned uses of the HS51 for HDTivo at 1080i over HDMI and XBOX and DVD over component, will the 720p issue be a showstopper, or will 1080i be as good/better? Since I'm used to an old projector, I'm not sure I would notice any difference.

Thanks for any feedback...

Some have suggested that feeding 1080i from some sources is better than feeding 720P for a display with a native 720P resolution, yes. But I do not believe anyone has determined concretely why this may be the case, not whether its an absolute condition.

Someone also suggested that the 1080i approach might be because the method for deinterlacing 1080i was to simply throw away a field, effectively creating a pseudo 540i, from which to deinterlace and thence create 720P from.

Being that Faroudja barely managed to come up with a superior deinterlacer for 1080P creation (from 1080i source), I somehow doubt the wealth of ability within an economy projection product will have the wherewithal to properly and robustly handle 1080i-->1080P without introducing artifacts.

Sure, it could look good to someone's eyes, and in reality that is all that counts, right? But what is your source is 720P to begin with? :)

My HS51 just arrived at the UPS station in Maumee, Ohio, a mere 10 mintes away from me! I will be watching Empire Strikes Back on Wednesday!

Blanked on the HDMI-input:
~ 32 pixels on the sides
~ 17 pixels at the the top/bottom

That is a total of 2176 pixels wasted on blanking.

Number of pixels on the panel: 1280x720 = 921 600.
Percent wasted = 0.24 percent
Actually, it's much higher than that. You just calculated the number of lost pixels in the corners. The actual total is:

Pixels lost along the top edge: 17 * 1280 = 21760
Pixels lost along the bottom edge: 17 * 1280 = 21760
Pixels lost along the left edge: 32 * 720 = 23040
Pixels lost along the right edge: 32 * 720 = 23040
Subtract the overlap at the four corners: -4 * 32 * 17 = -2176
Total pixels lost due to blanking/overscan: 87424

That's about 9.5% of the total number of pixels.

Originally posted by Tony-V
Can someone please try feeding the HS50/51 a 1280x720@50Hz signal and check if it's accepted or not.
I used Powerstrip on my HTPC to feed the HS51 720/50p per Memory #11 on page 56 of the manual. I verified that this is what the HS51 was receiving in the Information menu.

HDMI

looked pretty much the same as 720/60p, including the black border.

Input A

Not good at first. It synched and I got an image, but it was cropped by black bars and shifted to the right. The Dot Phase and H Size controls were not available, so there was no way to adjust it at the PJ. It was odd, it looked more like the HDMI image than what I got from Input A at 60Hz, the same sort of shrunken and cropped effect.

I tried tinkering with the Powerstrip settings and found that if I deviated far enough from 50 Hz (about 1.5 Hz either way) it would jump out of this mode and look more like it should, and the Dot Phase and H size controls became available. I could then get closer to 50 Hz before it would jump back into this mode. I was able to get it to work at 49.5 Hz or 51.0 Hz and tune in 1 to 1 pixel mapping. But as soon as I got closer to 50 Hz it would lock back into Memory 11 and look like the HDMI result.

Very strange. If 49.5 Hz is close enough it might work for you, but you will definitely need Powerstrip to tweak it.

Originally posted by RoninTech
If you still can't give it an IP, try downloading the freeware Ethereal LAN Sniffer (http://www.ethereal.com/) and plug the PJ's ethernet into your PC and sniff the connection as it comes up. Post back what you see.
Hopefully RobinTech is still following. I did as you instructed. The attached screenshot shows the result. I don't know how to interpret it, but it does appear to be attempting to use DHCP. Still no luck getting it to connect to my Router. Maybe it's a router setting, but everthing else connects fine, including a network printer and wireless access point. If anyone has suggestions I can give it a try.

Originally posted by tvted
I am swaying to the strategy of spending less now and more later - not a tactic I'm used to - had to have the best Now (within the limits of reason of course) - ah but I was so much older then. ;)
I think when comparing things at this price point it arrives at a leap of faith - fortunately there *are* users who are having good experiences. As long as I don't take my work home with me I might overlook many of the quibbles and enjoy the movie - which is what its mostly about anyway.

ted

HEHE, well should i to go back to the panny, i have tested the sony before i had read about these black boarders (it was fed with hdmi) i didn't notice anything ofcource the people in the store may have zoomed the picture a little bit more so that the boarders were hidden. anyway the picture looked amazing and apparently the problem will go away if you use 1080i and from what i understand there isn't a significant picture quality difference between 1080i and 720p. so i don't know if this is a deal breaker for me but then this is my first PJ so i don't have any experience with PJ:s.

so if you want to buy a PJ today you will either have VB, flashes, screendoor, rainbows, black boarders etc.

it is not easy to buy your first PJ:p

Originally posted by Joe Schwartz
Actually, it's much higher than that. You just calculated the number of lost pixels in the corners. The actual total is:

Pixels lost along the top edge: 17 * 1280 = 21760
Pixels lost along the bottom edge: 17 * 1280 = 21760
Pixels lost along the left edge: 32 * 720 = 23040
Pixels lost along the right edge: 32 * 720 = 23040
Subtract the overlap at the four corners: -4 * 32 * 17 = -2176
Total pixels lost due to blanking/overscan: 87424

That's about 9.5% of the total number of pixels. Which is about what I stated (re: almost 10%). Thanks Joe.
Originally posted by ZoomAir
it is not easy to buy your first PJ:p
It makes finding the wife seem like a trivial task, huh?

Doh! I'll wear the dumb cone rest of the day.Mathematics never was my subject! 0.24 percent.. HEHEHE! :)

But I believe the calculation of the thickness of the border in inches should be correct.

Here is an example of my desktop. It is 1600x1200 resolution. I white-masked to show what 10% would represent if lost:
http://home.speedfactory.net/wanman/img/10percent_DesktopLoss.jpg

I let PhotoShop perform the centering of the white-mask. Even at 5% my taskbar, in this example, would still be lost.

This is the response I received from Sony regarding the 720p scaling issue...

Bradley Bissell,

Thank you for taking a moment to contact Sony Online Support.

Since the SONY VPL-HS51 Projector has a 16:9 aspect ratio, the HD images can be viewed in the full screen. If you are watching something in 4:3 aspect ratio, then the black bars on the screen is normal. To remove the black bars from the corners of the screen please refer page 26 to 28 of the SONY VPL-HS51 Projector's instruction manual.


Yeah, not so helpful. Just have to love canned answers to a question I didn't ask.

I found this to be the similar experience when I had a problem two years ago with Pioneer (Elite equipment) and their canned replies. Totally worthless. And we thought our out-sourced, overseas ISP customer support was a problem. :p

WHAAATTT 10% picture loss is definitely not acceptable SONY must address this if this is the case, i thought i had found the perfect PJ but apparently not.

do they not test for this before they ship the product, on a swedish forum someone got a response from sony saying that this problem wasn't apparent on their examples, but i hope they fix this before i order my PJ.

i could go with the panny or the Z3 but after seeing the hs50 i wouldn't really be satisfied with neither of them.

We are kind of acting out our internal drama queen here are we not.
1 run hdmi 1080i and it works fine
2 there was some kind of analog work around for 720p

It you are only using dvd scaled to 1080i which to many give the better image then you are safe with hs51.
However if you have access to hdtv 720p with digital output I can certainly understand the call for a fix.
If the blanking had been a lot smaller the issue is not that big for video, not counting htpc gaming here. However the blanking is huge! If only the lost image had been a lot less like 0-2 percent most of us could have been happy.

Before I would advise someone using 1080i I would want to really understand how Sony handles taking 1080i and displaying 720P. I would also like to know why blanking is implemented on one common HDTV resolution and not another. Its completely asinine without reasoning or explanation from Sony.

Originally posted by ZoomAir
WHAAATTT 10% picture loss is definitely not acceptable SONY must address this if this is the case, i thought i had found the perfect PJ but apparently not.

My understanding is that is it NOT a 10% "picture loss;" rather, it is a 10% "smaller" image. Correct?

Not from what jschefdog posted originally. You can clearly see that a portion of the image is lost (hibbed, blanking, etc.).

I had run only an HDMI cable inside the wall up to the projector.
If I'll buy the Sony, and I want to see full 720P picture the only option is to use VGA input.

There's any way to use my HDMI cable as a VGA cable (just like can be done using the DVI-I)? any converter ?

Originally posted by jschefdog
Hopefully RobinTech is still following. I did as you instructed. The attached screenshot shows the result. I don't know how to interpret it, but it does appear to be attempting to use DHCP. Still no luck getting it to connect to my Router. Maybe it's a router setting, but everthing else connects fine, including a network printer and wireless access point. If anyone has suggestions I can give it a try.

Cool. It's definitely trying to get an IP address. Can you check your logs on your firewall to see what happened? Also, check your PM.

Another thing you can do is to use a hub where the uplink is connected to your DHCP server, one port to your PC running ethereal and one port to the PJ. Hubs pass all traffic to all ports so you should be able to see any responses coming from the DHCP server when it receives the PJ's discover messages. A switch (what you should use) is more intelligent and only forwards traffic to a port if it knows it is destined there. Much more efficient but won't let you sniff the other ports.

I might still get the Sony and use the 1080i, or buy a dvdo box. If I got a panny then I would have to get a gray screen. When I up later to a 1080p with a better iris, then the gray screen would not be needed.

Here is the message I emailed to SONY tech support last night and their ridiculous response:

“Message : When/how are you going to fix the "scaling" problem with 720p input to this projector over HDMI and component? For details, check this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4736782#post4736782 Thanks, Bill “

Here is SONY’s reply:
Response (Shane) - 12/01/2004 09:00 AM
Thank you for your interest in Sony Projectors.

Sony has not released any official announcement acknowledging any issues about the VPL-HS51 Sony Cineza LCD Front Projector. These products are not known by Sony to be defective in any way and we are not aware of a problem. Sony does not address any comments published on or quoted from a non-Sony website or sources.

At the bottom of the reply was: Status: Solved

It’s impossible to address a problem you refuse to admit exists. I think the next step is for someone more knowledgeable than me to cut and paste a actual test pattern image and email it to SONY tech support.

Originally posted by ay221
I might still get the Sony and use the 1080i, or buy a dvdo box. If I got a panny then I would have to get a gray screen. When I up later to a 1080p with a better iris, then the gray screen would not be needed.

If you do not have dark walls/carpet and a room with very low reflections, do not underestimate the power of the Firehawk to help keep your CR high by minimizung the reflected light bouncing back on the screen...

I'm happy that users in the US have a work around for 1280x720 @60 Hz via VGA. Just worried that potential buyers like me in Europe don't have that option.
On a French forum 1280x720@50Hz apparently doesn't work, the image is shifted. The guy tried to change the settings to @49.5Hz or 51Hz and that seemed to solve the problem ?!?!

So in Europe the only viable solution would be to use the HDMI input @ 1080i potentially loosing an option for someone with a HTPC and a MP-1 mod
:mad:

Cheers

Anthony

Hi!

I'm new here. I've been trying to read all the information about the new Sony projector but I might have missed some...

I'm a bit worried about the problems that several people have described concerning some pixels not being displayed when using 720p resolution. I'm thinking about buying a Denon 2910 DVD player and use the built-in scaler. This is pretty much the only device I'll be using in connection with the projector. Does anyone know if that's going to cause the sort of problems with black borders that people are describing?

Morten

Well the dealer just sent me a message that the unit has been shipped to me. Unfortunately the tracking number isn't yet into the UPS system. I was hoping they'd use FedEx as I have had far better luck with them. UPS adds several more days to the ship time. It will be interesting to see which projector arrives first, my 1HD which is coming back from service or the HS51.

I will try to give some impressions when it is up and running. But I've got finals on the 14th and 16th so I probably won't have much time to get serious with the unit till the 17th. I don't have HDMI capable equipment, so I won't be able to partake in that side discussion. Now to figure out a mount for this PJ.

Originally posted by ay221
I might still get the Sony and use the 1080i, or buy a dvdo box. If I got a panny then I would have to get a gray screen. When I up later to a 1080p with a better iris, then the gray screen would not be needed. That's a heck of a anti-endorsement for Sony, no? I mean, having to go external for image processing and all. At that price point you would be into the realm of the new Sharp 720P DLP projector.

Just an FYI for those that have time to fully read this article.(I don't, I'm buying a house today). Try the Digital Display Basics page for some information of blanking on DVI 1.0. No mention of HDMI really but this may be where everything is going wrong.

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041129/index.html

I think I've heard before about endeavors of some AVSers to use reduced blanking times to resolve unwanted blanking in digital projectors. This may work for those on computers, but work will need to be done (experimentation, et al) and does nothing for the happy consumer looking for 720P digital fundamentals to be delivered.

I find it confusing, though, that 1080i should work, because the bandwidth of 1080i is actually higher than 720P (and deinterlaced 1080i considerably more than 720P). So, if 720P consumes less bandwidth why the problem?

Hi
Would like to know the difference between HS50 & HS51
Thanks

Hey gang I'm going to be buying the panny 700, s97, and sa-xr70 combo come March of next year. I would appreciate a recommendation for a 30ft HDMI to HDMI cable to run from the projector to the reciever. Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by errm
Hi
Would like to know the difference between HS50 & HS51
Thanks

errm

Welcome to the forum. This question has been asked and answered numerous times in this thread. If you use the search function I'm sure you will find the answer you are looking for.

Ferret why do you keep saying there is a 10% loss of picture info at 720p?

We have already had two other users report that no info is lost but there is a small black border around the image. I know you keep going back to the one original picture but its just as feasible that was created by the incorrect signal as anything on the projector side.

I would like to find out why there is some pixels unused on 1:1 which is similar to the hs10 when in 1:1 mode. Its possible the panels are slightly larger than 1280x720 and when 1:1 is done only the 1280x720 is used. This is how it works on the hs10. I wish I could get ahold of an hs51 so as to test the 1:1 mapping and see whats being received.

BTW, 1080i looks amazing on the hs10--even the 720p hd channels converted to 1080i.

JJay: you're absolutely correct to bring up the HS10 in 1:1 mode because it's behavior sounds nearly identical to what is being discussed regarding the HS51 at 1:1 pixel mapping.

I have a macro setup to do a power zoom on the HS10 when switching between a 1:1 pixel mapped source (Bravo D1 with 1366 x 768 custom setting over DVI) and my HD Tivo outputting 1080i due to the black border around the 1:1 pixel mapped image on the HS10.

The HS51 doesn't have a power zoom so automation of zoom is sadly impossible.

Perhaps the answer for the HS51 will truly mean outputting 1080i from all sources to the HS51 (which seems odd considering it seems one of the things Sony did with the HS51 vs. the HS10/HS20 is use a standard resolution of 720p 1280 x 720 vs. the unusual resolution of 1366 x 768 but now you can't correctly display 720p on the HS51 so it negates the whole point).

Sounds like a big blunder from Sony. It'll be interesting to see if they can "fix" this but based on them never "fixing" the black borders on the 1:1 image on the HS10/HS20 I don't hold much hope of them doing so since it's all probably the same core design issue between the HS10, HS20 and HS51.

This is the newest response from Sony regarding the blanking issue.

Bradley Bissell,

Thank you for taking a moment to contact Sony Online Support.

If the problem is not happening when a 1080i signal is used and the format of the video signal provided to the projector has not changed in the switching, there may be a problem within the projector. Unfortunately, we could only recommend that you have the unit evaluated and/or repaired at one of our SONY Factory Service Centers. The location of your nearest SONY Factory Service Center, as well as any local SONY Authorized Service Centers are available at URL...

Sounds like the first response saying that there might be a problem. duh ;)

Originally posted by JJay
We have already had two other users report that no info is lost but there is a small black border around the image. I know you keep going back to the one original picture but its just as feasible that was created by the incorrect signal as anything on the projector side.
I have only tested the output from HTPC since I don't have any type of set top box with DVI or HDMI output. But with HTPC to HDMI you definitely lose some portion of the image. The HTPC is set to 1280x720 and has a background that has corner markers at 1, 5, and 10 pixels from each corner. Using Input A properly tweaked I can seem them all, so I am getting all 1280x720 pixels displayed on the screen.

When I switch to HDMI, connected to the same graphics card, the visible image becomes smaller with black borders all around and the corner markers are no longer visible. I wouln't call them "small", I would guess they are about 2-3% of the screen dimensions from each edge. If I turn up the brightness I can see that the borders are black pixels. It is not just that the image shrinks, pixels are being blanked. You can zoom the visible image to fill the screen, but those pixels are still black and your image is composed of less than 1280x720. Also the resulting zoom level does not match what is used for any of the other inputs. Losing the border of the image may not bother people using a set top box, its comparable to overscan which most video displays have. But this zoom difference could be a real pain, especially since zoom interacts with lens shift. I would not want to make this adjustment every time I switch inputs.

I set Powerstrip to exactly match the fV and fH values in the manual for the 720/60P HDMI memory setting. The PJ status indicates that it has locked onto that memory setting. It's certainly possible something is not correct, but if I deviate even a little from those settings the screen blanks and says "Frequency out of range". This makes me believe the HTPC is sending the PJ what it expects. The HDMI input seems to be much more restrictive than VGA.

As I have said before, this is not a deal breaker for me. I don't intend to return the HS51. The image quality using HTPC to Input A is excellent and I would be surprised if an all digital path that worked correctly looked significantly better.

Do the HS20 and the HS50 have the same holes on the bottom so I can use the same ceiling mount?

A on line retailer is showing the HS51 in "low stock" right now!
Bill

Originally posted by aurz
Do the HS20 and the HS50 have the same holes on the bottom so I can use the same ceiling mount?

We used an HS 20 mount on a new HS 51. Perfect fit.

Here is my last comment from Sony.

Bradley Bissell,

Thank you for taking a moment to contact Sony Online Support.

These products are not known by Sony to be defective in any way and we are not aware of a problem. Sony does not address any comments published on, or quoted from a non-Sony website.

Based on the information you have provided we suggest that you please get the unit evaluated and/or repaired at one of our SONY Factory Service Centers. The location of your nearest SONY Factory Service Center, as well as any local SONY Authorized Service Centers are available at URL:

Sony Online Support obviously has no idea what they are talking about.

I managed to get a half hour demo of the HS50 (Oz model) yesterday at a local Perth Hi Fi dealer (they have 5 units in stock).

Their demo room is not exactly state-of-the-art but it gave me a reasonable idea how this unit performs. They had the Sony connected to a Denon 3910 running progressive PAL (did not have the digital connection hooked up...!). 90" D matte white screen (1.1 gain I believe).

When I walked in they had the Z2 going (unit that I currently have). All the usual prob's - screen door, VB, average contrast.

They shut off the Z2 and fired up the Sony and at first I was not that impressed with the image - the super contrast ratio just wasn't there. One thing I did notice was that screen door on the Sony is lighter than the Z2 - the inter-pixel grid is very light gray in color - almost, but not quite, the same as Matterhorn DLP models.

I ask the guy if I could play with the remote and went into the menu and discovered that they were running it in high lamp mode and auto-iris off!!!! So I changed it to auto-iris on and low lamp mode... WOW, there is the contrast and black level that people are talking about. It was really very good.

I didn't fiddle with the other menu options, so I would imagine that the image could only get better. I did notice some unstable image artifacts in areas of solid color (fixed pattern noise?) from time to time but the guy said that they suffered from interference with their projectors from unstable power and because of all the other gear they have in the room (6 or 7 amps, 6 sets of speakers etc).

After watching the Sony for about 30 minutes, we shut it down and fired up an Infocus 5700 straight afterward. The 5700 was obviously brighter (and noisier in low lamp mode - Sony is nearly silent in low lamp) but didn't appear to have anything like the contrast ratio of the Sony (I'm not knocking the Infocus - it is a model I was looking to upgrade to from the Z2).

All in all, I think the Sony is the real deal. It's certainly the best LCD I have ever seen in the flesh by quite a margin. Even in this not-so-perfect set up, it looked great to me and could only get better with proper calibration. It now moves to the top of my upgrade list (unless I win a lottery and could drop the $$$ on a 3 chip DLP or Qualia)...

Originally posted by JJay
Ferret why do you keep saying there is a 10% loss of picture info at 720p?

We have already had two other users report that no info is lost but there is a small black border around the image. I know you keep going back to the one original picture but its just as feasible that was created by the incorrect signal as anything on the projector side.

I would like to find out why there is some pixels unused on 1:1 which is similar to the hs10 when in 1:1 mode. Its possible the panels are slightly larger than 1280x720 and when 1:1 is done only the 1280x720 is used. This is how it works on the hs10. I wish I could get ahold of an hs51 so as to test the 1:1 mapping and see whats being received.

BTW, 1080i looks amazing on the hs10--even the 720p hd channels converted to 1080i.
Jay, pictures don't lie, and if they did they weren't pictures I took. :) Take a look at the images jschefdog posted. He compares the HDMI and RGB inputs frmo the same source and both at 720P. In the HDMI picture do you not see the image getting clipped? I do have an active imagination, and as such I;ll also go back and have a look. Here ...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4725317&fullpage=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4725324&fullpage=1

Is there not an image being blanked out?

Originally posted by RoninTech
Cool. It's definitely trying to get an IP address. Can you check your logs on your firewall to see what happened? Also, check your PM.

Another thing you can do is to use a hub where the uplink is connected to your DHCP server, one port to your PC running ethereal and one port to the PJ.
I tried this and have come to the conclusion that the LAN connection on my HS51 just doesn't work. When I checked the packet sniffer output more closely, I realized that the DHCP requests were coming from the MAC address of the HTPC, not the HS51. After several tests I have never seen one packet reported as coming from the HS51 MAC address. I see packets from everything else on my home network. Maybe this feature is not functional in the units currently shipping. Or maybe it has to be enabled somehow.

Anyway thanks for the suggestions, but I think it's hopeless. Not a big deal, I'm not sure I would have any use for it. I was just curious to see what it could to.

Originally posted by TheFerret
That's a heck of a anti-endorsement for Sony, no? I mean, having to go external for image processing and all. At that price point you would be into the realm of the new Sharp 720P DLP projector.

Yeah. I don't think I would really buy one. Like you said in that other post. Let's try to get Sony to fix this problem. Kind of ancy since I have a preorder in place.

Ferret, I wasn't accusing you of making up the picture loss :). As I stated in my post, we aren't sure the picture loss if from the pj as it could be something wrong with the signal from the htpc. Having other users with this pj who have not lost any of the pic while sending it 720p seems to confirm its something other than the pj cropping the picture.

The picture not filling the entire panel however now seems to be a 720p problem with the pj and not just an hdmi problem. This problem may or may not affect users depending on how they use the pj...

croping issue?

To avoid the croping issue on HDMI 720p, what about using HTPC at 48Hz?
We had the confirmation on a french forum, that going below .5Hz from the 50Hz or 60Hz, will avoid the use of the blanking function of the "memory 7 store".

Yes I know that using 48Hz needs the use of an HTPC for everything (audio decoding too!), but in my case, that is all that I want to do (thru Theatertek 2 / reclock 1.5 / 8 audio out to the audio amplifier).

What about some 75Hz and 47.952Hz too?

Marss,

Could you post a link to the french forum, I got some investigations to do :)

into this thread:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29751287&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=2040

but I do not remember in which page, I will follow the research for you...

Originally posted by JJay
Ferret, I wasn't accusing you of making up the picture loss :). As I stated in my post, we aren't sure the picture loss if from the pj as it could be something wrong with the signal from the htpc. Having other users with this pj who have not lost any of the pic while sending it 720p seems to confirm its something other than the pj cropping the picture.

The picture not filling the entire panel however now seems to be a 720p problem with the pj and not just an hdmi problem. This problem may or may not affect users depending on how they use the pj...
Jay, I know you were not being accusative, and the question was valid. I doubt its jschefdog's HTPC. He was simply using Windows and PowerStrip to display a standard windows graphic image that is identical to the panel's native resolution. This is pure PC and nothing HT about it.

This still would mean, as I stated, that Sony has zero ability to conceive that someone would want a PC+HS51 setup. Totally absurd. And until those other folks decide to take some pictures of commonly recognizable 720P native sources (and not something up-scaled from 480i, then its a moot point. Pictures speak louder (to me) than any words could.

I wouldn't mind someone taking a picture of Fox HD, EPSN HD, or ABC HD, which are all 720P native sources. Have these fed to the Sony in 720P, snap some freaking pictures and let's see if its masking/blanking, something else, or a combination of issues. Anyone game? Anyone got game?

Couldn't find the HDMI topic on the french forum. Just found few screen shots like this:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/download.php?id=11677


Sam.

Couldn't find back the info I told you previously. I have readen too many forum on that subject.

But I remember clearly that the solution was to change the frequency with Powerstrip and to have a difference of at least 1.5hz from the typical frequency.

So, instead of 60Hz either 58.5 or 61.5? jschefdog, could you try this?

redesigning my HT room, so need to know what is the recommendation for clearance behind the projector? Is around 2 feet needed for venting?

Vents out the front. It's made that way so you can shelf mount. You'll need a few inches behind at least about 4 to properly wire the projector. Other than that you should be good to go mounting any distance you want.

Originally posted by TheFerret
So, instead of 60Hz either 58.5 or 61.5? jschefdog, could you try this?
I will try it but may not have time until the weekend. I think someone may be confusing HDMI with Input A. I posted earlier in this thread that Input A at the 720/50p setting looked similar to the HDMI problem, but if I tweaked the frequency to 49.5 or 51.0 Hz it would snap into a mode that allowed tweaking to 1x1 pixel mapping. This was on Input A only, not HDMI. My experience with HDMI so far is that it does not support any frequencies outside of the ones listed in the manuals. Tweaking on HDMI has so far resulted in a blank screen with a "Frequency out of range" message. It seems to be much less flexible than Input A, which operates more like a multisync monitor and can work with a variety of frequency settings.
Originally posted by TheFerret
This still would mean, as I stated, that Sony has zero ability to conceive that someone would want a PC+HS51 setup.
I think a more accurate statement is that they did not conceive that somone might want to hook up a PC to the HDMI input. They provided a method to use PC+HS51, connection to Input A. It provides 1 to 1 pixel mapping and uses all 1280x720 pixels on the panels. It works great with a PC and is very flexible. The only issue is that it is not all digital, but there is no way to do an A/B comparison to tell if an all digital path would produce better image quality.

Not to defend Sony, but this situation is not that uncommon. These forums contain reports about a variety of issues that occur when connecting a PC to a DVI or HDMI input on a TV or PJ. It seems that units that work well with a PC are more the exception than the rule, and most manufacturers are only considering set top box connection when they design these inputs. Usually they have some scaling, processing and/or overscan on the digital input that makes it unsuitable for use with HTPC. The HS51 may be worse than most because it produces a visible border and requires a zoom adjustment. If they had just scaled up the image with 2-3% overscan and used the full panels, most set top box users would never notice since most TVs have overscan.

From all the reports of black borders with 720p input over both HDMI and Component, it seems the big screw up on the HS51 is 720p support in general. Didn't they ever try feeding it a 720P signal during their testing? Who would think the resulting black borders and lost pixels is acceptable?

I'm not so sure the 720P border issue is that big a deal. On my HS10 at least, the 1080i mode looks better than 720P and about the same same in 1:1 mode. But the border is so big in 1:1 that I absolutely never use the 720p mode. Since I have an upscaling DVD player, I never use anything but 1080, and it still looks great.

I would have assumed native mode would be far better, but on the HS10 (and many other native 720 projectors) scaling to 1080 just looks best. Unless the HS51 is far different (which I doubt), the 720 border shouldn't be a big deal in actual use - since most wouldn't normally choose 720 mode anyway.

So summary so far

1080i over HDMI is good
1280 x 720 RGBHV over VGA (input A) is good
720p over component has overscan
720p over HDMI has blanking
480i over component ??
480p over component ??
480p over HDMI ??

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
480i over component?
This works fine. The overscan is about 4-5% which is a little excessive. but it does fill the panels, no black borders. You probably wouldn't notice the overscan unless watching a channel with a ticker strip at the bottom or top and many TVs do the same. The internal deinterlacing and scaling also seem very good to me. I see a few artifacts that I don't get on the HTPC, but overall I would find it acceptable. I have seen worse.

Originally posted by ddingle
We used an HS 20 mount on a new HS 51. Perfect fit.

What mount was that you were using ? Would it be the Peerless PJC-173 mount by any chance ? I'm interested in knowing if this mount would work on an HS-51.

Originally posted by jschefdog
The only issue is that it is not all digital, but there is no way to do an A/B comparison to tell if an all digital path would produce better image quality.

Can't you compare the quality of the image that is not blanked out on HDMI to the same portion of the image over VGA?

Originally posted by HTCrazy
I'm not so sure the 720P border issue is that big a deal. On my HS10 at least, the 1080i mode looks better than 720P and about the same same in 1:1 mode.

The only worry I have is for Xbox or future gaming consoles that may ONLY produce 720 for certian games. Have you played 720p Xbox games on your HS10? Does part of the score or bullet information get blanked out? We may have a situation where all 3 next gen consoles spit out 720p by default all the time. Then we get overscanned or blanked. What's the opinion on this worry?

reap

ok now i am all confused from this reason talk about the cropping and picture loss, i just have one question i will use the panny dvd-s97 through hdmi if i use 1080i will there be a problem or will it work just fine

thats all i need to know because i will not use a computer etc. and i don't mind using 1080i instead of 720p and also there isn't any good hd material in sweden so i probably wont watch native 720p sources either (before hddvd comes :p ).

hopefully sony addresses this issue before i get my PJ but i hope that it doesn't affect delivery times that much so that i have to wait until February for my first PJ.

Pansonic S97 1080i via hdmi into HS51 looks pretty good, but I see occasional artifacts (ragged edges) but they are minir in my opinion. The thing stopped me from using it is that I see a bit more EE than I am used to. For a casual viewer it is great. But for nitpickers like me, I think another DVD player will have to be found.

The EE is not coming from the HS51 but from the player. I have determined that through trial and error.

I also tried the Toshiba 5970 1080i via hdmi and its was better in the sense of no ragged edges and less EE. However, the player from a ergonomic standpoint is a nightmare and I have gone back to my good old Panasonic RP-91 via 480p component. :)

Originally posted by ZoomAir
ok now i am all confused from this reason talk about the cropping and picture loss, i just have one question i will use the panny dvd-s97 through hdmi if i use 1080i will there be a problem or will it work just fine

thats all i need to know because i will not use a computer etc. and i don't mind using 1080i instead of 720p and also there isn't any good hd material in sweden so i probably wont watch native 720p sources either (before hddvd comes :p ).

hopefully sony addresses this issue before i get my PJ but i hope that it doesn't affect delivery times that much so that i have to wait until February for my first PJ.

I decided to have this review here. So here are my two cents:

Initial Impressions of Sony HS51:
-----------------------------------------

I have played with the unit for about 22 hours or so, mostly HD and some DVD. Hi-def is via 1080i component and DVD is via HDMI.

Just for reference, I have seen/had Infocus X1, Sony HS20, Infocus 5700, Infocus 7205, Sharp 12000 and Optoma H77 so that you know where I am coming from. I am pretty picky.

Contrast: The contrast with Iris auto is stunning, the best I have seen, as good as the Optoma H77, definitely not any less. Shadow detail is quite good

Light output: This PJ in auto iris mode is dim. but once you get used to it, it is not that bothering. I have a HCMW Da-lite screen and only every once in while I get the yearning for more light output. If you have the bulb in high mode it adds a lot more punch, yielding a brighter and image with more perceived contrast. After viewing several hours, I think I need to run the bulb in high contrast mode for the punch, otherwise it gets a bit dim. However with HP screen you probably can run the bulb in low mode, but I am concerned about the blacks in HP screen. FYI, my screen is only 92" diag

Color: Out of the box, the colors are just fine and as good as HS20 or better. No extensive calibration needed.

Noise: The unit in low bulb mode is absoutely silent, you cannot hear a thing even in a dead quiet room. In high mode, you can hear a very low level whooshy white noise, nothing whiny and not very bothersome

Sharpness: In this respect the HS51 is quite a bit advanced than the previous generation. The focus is so crisp that it adds a realism to the image. The image is supersharp without any digital etching. Keep the sharpness setting low thats all

FPN: Much less than HS20 and almost like DLP quality in the absence of such noise. Only anal viewers like me will notice every once in a while and only when looking for it

VB: Again much less than HS20 (which had little to begin with) to the point of being non existent. The image looks like a good DLP projector.

SDE: although less resolution than HS20, it has noticeablly less SDE. SDE is almost not noticeable unless against bright background and even then it is comparable to mid-priced DLP projectors.

Motion: No probs with motion, steady pans, better than 1-chip DLPs in this regard.

Hi-def is very very good, sometimes it makes DVD PQ sub-par. Actually DVD playback is very good (via 1080i HDMI from capable players), but the Hi-def is so real, crisp and clean with well saturated colors that it shows the limitations of DVD resolution. Again in Hi-def everything is program dependent, but I saw Shrek in HD on NBC yesterday and I was fantastic.

The only flaw is that via HDMI 720p does not fill the whole image. That sucks but is NOT a dealbreaker. It's 1080i processing is so good that 1080i from a capable DVD player could provide very good PQ. I have tried Panasonic S97 and Toshiba 5970 (bitch to operate) and for both the players 1080i yielded beter PQ than 720p or 480p. I am still experimenting.

Hopefully Sony will have solution to the 720p, but with Sony you never know.

All in all, I give it two thumbs up especially for the price!!!!!!!! It will give the mid-priced DLPs a run for the money, I am sure.

Here is a link to a japanese review: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041202/dg42.htm

Scroll down, and you find:
Photo of the SDE. (More evident than I thought)
Photos of Windows desktop in DVI.

But I cannot read japanese, so I have no idea what the reviewer says.

I decided to post this here:

OK I have made some progress in relaying the information to Sony. I called on 11/29 and reported the problem to Sony advanced technical support. I called today again and after weeding through the knuckleheads in the basic support division, I was finally able to talk a technical support guy at the highest level. I reiterated the problem again and he modified my complaint. He also told me that my complaint has been forwarded to Engineering and they are looking at it. He said he would send my modified complaint again to Engineering. He indicated that his contact with Engineering sits very close to him and he would go and bug him about it again. He also told me that Engineering would test a unit out to see if they can duplicate the problem. He said so far there is no fix from Engineering but they have not ignored it. I requested him to call me tomorrow with a an update and he said that he would ask his Engineering contact to call me with an update tomorrow regardless of any resolution by then.

So this is positive, but we will wait and see what happens! As far as recall, there is none and he told me such a problem, if verified, would be fixed with a FW upgrade.

Will keep you posted.

Actually, more interesting, is this image which shows a windows desktop over hdmi. Not as cropped as I would have thought. In fact, quite livable. I am back on the boat for buying this projector. I can live with that...

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20041202/dgp09.jpg

My screen shipped yesterday; I received my projector mount today. If only I knew when I would receive my projector. . . Being 15th on the dealers list makes it even worse!

Originally posted by reaper
Can't you compare the quality of the image that is not blanked out on HDMI to the same portion of the image over VGA?
I guess that wasn't clear. You could compare the quality of HDMI versus Input A on the non-cropped portion. But I believe the HDMI input is processing the image, it does not appear to be one to one pixel mapping. The B&W 1x1 pixel checkerboard background becomes a uniform gray and text appears to be thicker and smoother. This makes me think HDMI is doing some type of averaging or smoothing on the input. Given this, I don't think you could tell if the all digital path is better than the analog path since you are not comparing unprocessed images on each. However, you could compare them and might prefer either the unprocessed analog or the processed HDMI.

I prefer the analog input appearance for using Windows, but have not had time to do a meaningful comparison playing video.

Originally posted by reaper
Actually, more interesting, is this image which shows a windows desktop over hdmi. Not as cropped as I would have thought. In fact, quite livable. I am back on the boat for buying this projector. I can live with that...

The amount of cropping is not excessive, about 2-3%. This would not be a big deal for video and you can work in Windows. But you are losing some of the 1280x720 resolution to black pixels and have to adjust the zoom differently than the other inputs if you want to fill your screen. To me these are bigger issues than the cropping.

I agree that adjusting the zoom or not filling the screen is an annoyance but at least it's still functional. I can see my taskbar for heaven's sake. I doubt I'll be crying in my wheaties if my image isn't filling the screen sometimes...

Anyways... it may be a big deal to you guys... just not to me. The benefits of the HS51 outweigh the negatives.

reaper

Originally posted by jschefdog
I will try it but may not have time until the weekend.


/QUOTE]
I think a more accurate statement is that they did not conceive that somone might want to hook up a PC to the HDMI input. They provided a method to use PC+HS51, connection to Input A. It provides 1 to 1 pixel mapping and uses all 1280x720 pixels on the panels. It works great with a PC and is very flexible. The only issue is that it is not all digital, but there is no way to do an A/B comparison to tell if an all digital path would produce better image quality.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I would garner that some moderately priced video processors Rock are nothnig more than a highly-configured PC with an optional digital out. I guess it could be Sony's weakness in this area is pretty ignorant.

Not to defend Sony, but this situation is not that uncommon. These forums contain reports about a variety of issues that occur when connecting a PC to a DVI or HDMI input on a TV or PJ. It seems that units that work well with a PC are more the exception than the rule, and most manufacturers are only considering set top box connection when they design these inputs. Usually they have some scaling, processing and/or overscan on the digital input that makes it unsuitable for use with HTPC. The HS51 may be worse than most because it produces a visible border and requires a zoom adjustment. If they had just scaled up the image with 2-3% overscan and used the full panels, most set top box users would never notice since most TVs have overscan.

This isn't a PC or even an HTPC issue, though. Its a problem that when you feed one or two common HDTV signals one get's blanked and the other does not. Makes no difference if the source signal originates from a PC, a HTPC with a digital-out from DTV tuner card, or a standalone device.

From all the reports of black borders with 720p input over both HDMI and Component, it seems the big screw up on the HS51 is 720p support in general. Didn't they ever try feeding it a 720P signal during their testing? Who would think the resulting black borders and lost pixels is acceptable? I agree, 100%. :)

I don't think we ever verified if Evan was accurate in his announcement that the DVDO scaler was able to give the HS51 the 720p signal that it wanted. He announced in his review that it did. We need to start there and perhaps get some settings data out of him.

FYI,
For those that can't wait, Datavision is listing this projector as IN STOCK. To compare I looked up the new Olevia LT32HV and it was listed as preorder. I have not verified that the projector is actually in stock. Looking at MSRP however and they are an authorized Sony Internet dealer.

I don't have time to read this entire massive thread, but I hope people realize that overscan for video is really required. Broadcasters frequently put garbage/data in the borders that you don't want to see. It would show up as random flashing pixels, etc. This is why every video display has somewhere around 5% of overscan/cropping. This is normal and by design.

Of course for non OTA sources like DVD, HTPC, etc. there may be valid data in the borders. This is why Sony needs to put an adjustable overscan control into the menus. The solution is not to simply disable overscan in 1280x720. That would cause just as many problems as it solves since we would have OTA viewers complaining about garbage in the borders. If you don't believe me, try finding some old review threads about the Optoma H76 in the >5K forum. That projector had 0% cropping/overscan in all modes and lots of people complained.

The reason Sony decided to blank the borders is because it should provide fewer scaling artifacts than slightly enlarging a 1280x720 signal in order to hide the borders. They probably just feed the 1280x720 signal 1:1 to the 1280x720 panel (no scaling) but don't draw the outer pixels to 'emulate' the effect of overscan. The disadvantage of this approach is that the image appears smaller because of the black border.

To sum it up... whoever is talking to Sony needs to ask for adjustable overscan control. Or an optional 'computer' mode in the menus which turns off all overscan/blanking. That's how things worked in their previous projectors (HS10,HS20) so it should be easy for them to understand. Plus they already seem to do this on the VGA input which is probably assumed to be from a computer. They just need to offer the same option for the other inputs.

-Mark

Originally posted by dusk
Vents out the front. It's made that way so you can shelf mount. You'll need a few inches behind at least about 4 to properly wire the projector. Other than that you should be good to go mounting any distance you want.

Thanks, after deciding to put up a wall and doors in the entrace which is on the opposite side of the screen, I am able to remove the speakers from the ceiling and have them wall mounted, plus they will be further apart, 4 ft vs one, and upright vs sideways. Now I can install a plug and a shelf on top of the door entrance. Plus I will be able to move the projector further back than I was gonna place it. Almost a 2x throw distance should help on the eveness of light when using the Carada BW.

Is what the HS51's doing overscan or masking/blanking? I always thought overscan would not actually appear on the veiwable image, that it was essentially a part of the picture that was "off screen." But this seems to be imposing a mask over the image, so you're actually covering up part of what would normally be viewable.

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't have time to read this entire massive thread, but I hope people realize that overscan for video is really required. Broadcasters frequently put garbage/data in the borders that you don't want to see. It would show up as random flashing pixels, etc. This is why every video display has somewhere around 5% of overscan/cropping. This is normal and by design.
With the Qualia I was frustrated because when watching normal SD TV I could see the digital junk above the image. The HT500 3 chipper had adjustable overscan control which was great for this. I eventually discovered that the Qualia had little or no overscan/blanking for 1080i, but when I changed the HD-TIVO output to 720p it would get rid of the digital garbage, so that is what I ended up doing for SD channels. Things are a little different here because 720p had to be scaled on the Qualia anyway. My biggest frustration with the way they seem to have done this on the HS51 is that they have panels that exactly match 720p content, but seem to have no way to show that with a digital path and no scaling. I for one wish they had stayed with 1366x768 (or whatever it was) if they were going to do something like this anyway.

--Darin

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't have time to read this entire massive thread, but I hope people realize that overscan for video is really required. Broadcasters frequently put garbage/data in the borders that you don't want to see. It would show up as random flashing pixels, etc. This is why every video display has somewhere around 5% of overscan/cropping. This is normal and by design.

Of course for non OTA sources like DVD, HTPC, etc. there may be valid data in the borders. This is why Sony needs to put an adjustable overscan control into the menus. The solution is not to simply disable overscan in 1280x720. That would cause just as many problems as it solves since we would have OTA viewers complaining about garbage in the borders. If you don't believe me, try finding some old review threads about the Optoma H76 in the >5K forum. That projector had 0% cropping/overscan in all modes and lots of people complained.

The reason Sony decided to blank the borders is because it should provide fewer scaling artifacts than slightly enlarging a 1280x720 signal in order to hide the borders. They probably just feed the 1280x720 signal 1:1 to the 1280x720 panel (no scaling) but don't draw the outer pixels to 'emulate' the effect of overscan. The disadvantage of this approach is that the image appears smaller because of the black border.
-Mark

What you say is essentially true but in the case of 720p and 1080i that is the *active* picture area and should be fully visible.

ted

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
So summary so far

1080i over HDMI is good
1280 x 720 RGBHV over VGA (input A) is good
720p over component has overscan
720p over HDMI has blanking
480i over component ??
480p over component ??
480p over HDMI ??

Actually 720P over component has blanking.

480I and 480P over component are fine.

This is my first home theater projector and I am completely impressed. By the way I purchased the Chief HS20 mount and it fit perfectly.

Originally posted by dandaroy
I decided to have this review here. So here are my two cents:

Initial Impressions of Sony HS51:
-----------------------------------------

I have played with the unit for about 22 hours or so, mostly HD and some DVD. Hi-def is via 1080i component and DVD is via HDMI.

Just for reference, I have seen/had Infocus X1, Sony HS20, Infocus 5700, Infocus 7205, Sharp 12000 and Optoma H77 so that you know where I am coming from. I am pretty picky.

Contrast: The contrast with Iris auto is stunning, the best I have seen, as good as the Optoma H77, definitely not any less. Shadow detail is quite good

Light output: This PJ in auto iris mode is dim. but once you get used to it, it is not that bothering. I have a HCMW Da-lite screen and only every once in while I get the yearning for more light output. If you have the bulb in high mode it adds a lot more punch, yielding a brighter and image with more perceived contrast. After viewing several hours, I think I need to run the bulb in high contrast mode for the punch, otherwise it gets a bit dim. However with HP screen you probably can run the bulb in low mode, but I am concerned about the blacks in HP screen. FYI, my screen is only 92" diag

Color: Out of the box, the colors are just fine and as good as HS20 or better. No extensive calibration needed.

Noise: The unit in low bulb mode is absoutely silent, you cannot hear a thing even in a dead quiet room. In high mode, you can hear a very low level whooshy white noise, nothing whiny and not very bothersome

Sharpness: In this respect the HS51 is quite a bit advanced than the previous generation. The focus is so crisp that it adds a realism to the image. The image is supersharp without any digital etching. Keep the sharpness setting low thats all

FPN: Much less than HS20 and almost like DLP quality in the absence of such noise. Only anal viewers like me will notice every once in a while and only when looking for it

VB: Again much less than HS20 (which had little to begin with) to the point of being non existent. The image looks like a good DLP projector.

SDE: although less resolution than HS20, it has noticeablly less SDE. SDE is almost not noticeable unless against bright background and even then it is comparable to mid-priced DLP projectors.

Motion: No probs with motion, steady pans, better than 1-chip DLPs in this regard.

Hi-def is very very good, sometimes it makes DVD PQ sub-par. Actually DVD playback is very good (via 1080i HDMI from capable players), but the Hi-def is so real, crisp and clean with well saturated colors that it shows the limitations of DVD resolution. Again in Hi-def everything is program dependent, but I saw Shrek in HD on NBC yesterday and I was fantastic.

The only flaw is that via HDMI 720p does not fill the whole image. That sucks but is NOT a dealbreaker. It's 1080i processing is so good that 1080i from a capable DVD player could provide very good PQ. I have tried Panasonic S97 and Toshiba 5970 (bitch to operate) and for both the players 1080i yielded beter PQ than 720p or 480p. I am still experimenting.

Hopefully Sony will have solution to the 720p, but with Sony you never know.

All in all, I give it two thumbs up especially for the price!!!!!!!! It will give the mid-priced DLPs a run for the money, I am sure.

thanks for a great post

i will also feed the sony through a panny s97 so if i use 1080i there will not be any problems right?

thanks again

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't have time to read this entire massive thread, but I hope people realize that overscan for video is really required. Broadcasters frequently put garbage/data in the borders that you don't want to see. It would show up as random flashing pixels, etc. This is why every video display has somewhere around 5% of overscan/cropping. This is normal and by design.
I do not believe for one moment that the active portion of the video is suppose to be blanked or overscanned. 1280x720 is where the content is and not the full resolution of the video stream. And even if this were the case, then why isn't it necessary on a great many other projectors without a detriment to the content area's quality? And Sony didn't seem to think it was necessary for 1080i, which only contraries your suggestion that the active content area needs blanking or overscan.

Sorry, but I find little water in your offering.

My Ae700 does not have overscan.....Hmmm....I wonder why Panasonic got it right when Sony did not. And no Panasonic did not get it right on HDMI for a digital feed from a HTPC. I am missing 3 pixels on the top and bottom. Oh well.

Originally posted by zxlr8
My Ae700 does not have overscan.....Hmmm....I wonder why Panasonic got it right when Sony did not. And no Panasonic did not get it right on HDMI for a digital feed from a HTPC. I am missing 3 pixels on the top and bottom. Oh well.

Sony doesn't overscan or crop on the VGA input either.

reap

Sorry I was under the impression it happened no matter what 720p input you put to the projector.

no overscan or cropping on the VGA input but only at 60Hz right ?
For PAL 50Hz (1280x720@50Hz) won't work!

:(

Originally posted by reaper
Anyways... it may be a big deal to you guys... just not to me. The benefits of the HS51 outweigh the negatives.
It's not a big deal to me either, I'm just reporting what I find so others can make an informed choice. I would recommend the HS51 to anyone who wants a great picture at a reasonable price. I wouldn't let the 720P issues on HDMI stop me from buying one.

I'm very happy using my HTPC connected to Input A. I understand the theoretical advantages of an all digital path, but when you have 1 to 1 pixel mapping and no scaling or processing occurring at the PJ, these advantages may be minimal. To me using Input A looks great! Another advantage of using Input A with the HTPC is that it leaves HDMI available for a DVD player or set top box, no switcher required. From other reports, you can use 1080i and get a great picture from HDMI, so you can avoid the 720P issue as long as your box supports 1080i output.

I watched The Fifth Element Superbit edition last night using Input A. If there were any picture quality issues that resulted from the D/A and A/D conversions, I couldn't see them. The picture quality was excellent. For me the real test is whether I can get lost in the movie or keep getting distracted by image problems and artifacts. After about 15 minutes I quit trying to analyse the image and started enjoying the movie. I was never once distracted by image issues. No vertical banding, no noise, no tearing or combing. Maybe somebody with a trained eye could have spotted issues I didn't notice, but nothing distracted me from enjoying the movie.

I've had a DWIN 7" CRT projector for about 7 years. When I have some time this weekend I will try to post a more detailed review of how the HS51 compares to CRT. The bottom line is after a week of testing and viewing, I'm keeping the HS51. It may not be perfect, but it provides a great image for the price.

jschefdog,

Congrats! Wgat dvd player and screen (Size & Gain) are you using?

By the way, everyone should take a look at the screenshots on this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477183&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

If that doesn't get you excited about dvd's on the Sony nothing will.

Larry

PS:

Scroll down to see the sony screenshots!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477183&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Will someone with a unit please measure the outside diameter of the HS51 lens and also the distance from the front of the lens to the front edge of the projector? If the lens housing turns during focus or zoom ajustments, please measure the min and max distances. This info is for mounting an IMX processor.

Thanks very much.

The HS51 is very quiet especially in low mode and its compact. I notice screen door from my seating distance of 14 feet. I defocused slightly and this seemed to work. My biggest issue is that it appears that you are looking through a streaky window when I watch the unit. On pans I can clearly see noise (possibly vertical banding or more likely fixed panel noise). This annoys me to no end.

The contrast on the HS51 is good, but to my eyes the Sharp is clearly superior and has more punch (I run the Sharp in low lamp mode too). I ran the Sony in both. I could not watch the Stanford game on INHD1 on the HS51. I kept noticing the pans, noise etc. Im using a 96" Firehawk and I have total light control.

While I think the HS51 is a great improvement for LCD unfortunately it does not come close enough to the high end DLP's for overall picture quality (in my opinion). If you are bothered by the DLP shortcomings though then I think this maybe be the LCD unit for you.
Andy

Andy,

Why do you imagine the big difference in your experience and jschefdog's experience with his hs51? (His post is a few up from here)

Larry

Originally posted by TheFerret
I do not believe for one moment that the active portion of the video is suppose to be blanked or overscanned. 1280x720 is where the content is and not the full resolution of the video stream. And even if this were the case, then why isn't it necessary on a great many other projectors without a detriment to the content area's quality? And Sony didn't seem to think it was necessary for 1080i, which only contraries your suggestion that the active content area needs blanking or overscan.

Sorry, but I find little water in your offering.

I don't think you understood my original post. Let me try this again:

OTA Broadcasters often stuff junk into the borders of their signal with the assumption that nobody will see it because of overscan. This is a tradition from the old analog days and seems to continue in many areas. It's most common on analog upconversions which are scaled to HD by the station. There are many examples of these artifacts... you'll have to search the other forums for examples. I can only assure you that there will be cases where you will want some overscan when watching over-the-air HDTV (either 720p or 1080i). If you don't agree with this need for overscan, then there's no point reading the rest of this message.

So how do you hide this garbage on a digital panel display? You have 2 choices:

1) Scale the image slightly larger than the actual display. In this case, let's say you scale it up to 1300x740. This doesn't fit into the 1280x720 panel so the outer 10 pixels on each side are cropped. Advantage is you're using the full 1280x720 pixels to display most of the original signal. Disadvantage is that you're introducing slight scaling scaling artifacts. This is what the Sony and most other projectors do with 1080i since that signal needs to be scaled anyway.

Or:

2) Don't scale the signal and simply display it with 1:1 pixel mapping. If you still want to hide the border, there is only 1 choice. You need to leave the outer border pixels black to cover up the original signal. My guess is that Sony took this choice because it produces a cleaner image (from a 1280x720 signal) without any scaling artifacts. The disadvantage is that you're not using the entire panel.

You don't see this issues on other projectors because they don't alternate between the 2 choices. They either always scale up or always mask the border (either digitally or optically). Sony got into trouble here because they switch between the 2 methods. This is much more noticeable to the viewer.

If you can think of a better way to mask a 1280x720 signal on a 1280x720 panel, I'd like to hear it. You have to remember this is a video projector. Not a computer display. This is why all the inputs except for VGA use some form of overscan. What you need is a "computer" mode for the other inputs that does the same thing as the VGA input. Sony had this option on the DVI port of their previous models (HS10 and HS20) for this exact reason. The option never existed on the HDMI/Component inputs because they assume they will only be used for video.

-Mark

I dont know what his previous projector experience is. I will admit I prefer DLP (the typical LCD shortcomings bother me more than the DLP shortcomings). I guess I know what to focus on when watching both technologies. Like I said the HS51 is good. I dont think it should come as a great surprise to anyone that it doesnt match up to a projector that streets closer to 6-7k. I hoped it did because then I could sell the 12000 and make some money in the process.
Andy

Ok, my projector showed up today. Stupid UPS people actually left it out on my front porch while I was at work. I had to drive home and put it inside the house and then go back to work. Two reasons. One, there's a Junior High School two blocks up (don't trust the little idiots). Two, it's currently 31F in the Cleveland area!

Anyhow, does anyone know what type of screws are needed for the mounting holes? I'm not buying another projector mount, I'm just going to use the one I made for my SE 1HD by creating a new "mounting plate". I didn't have time to check to see if these mounting bolts are the same for both projectors. But with my luck I assume not.

I've got a big paper due for Tuesday and finals in less than 10 days. So I will try to give some preliminary impressions until the 17th when the semester's over and I can take more time to calibrate the projector.

Originally posted by larsil
jschefdog,
Congrats! Wgat dvd player and screen (Size & Gain) are you using?
I am running TheaterTek 1.5 as the DVD player on my HTPC and using VGA out from a Radeon 9600 to Input A on the HS51. My screen is 6 feet wide and I sit about 9 feet back (~1.5 screen widths). I have a very small theater room (10'x10'), so could not go much larger. The screen is an old Vutec 1.5 gain that I purchased for my CRT PJ. It was a good choice for CRT at the time, but probably not the best choice for the HS51. It's what I have and didn't want to think about upgrading the screen until I was sure about keeping the HS51.

Andy does not say what source or connection he was using for his evaluation. Some of the artifacts he describes could be coming from the internal deinterlacer or scaler. On my setup, all the scaling and processing is done in the HTPC, so it is not using the PJs internal scaler. That might account for the differences in what we see.

I have tried 480i over component from my really old Sony DVD player and did not see any terrible artifacts on the Video Essentials montage of images. Other than that quick test I have not used this connection much. I have not tried any other sources except this DVD player and the HTPC. I can say that high definition Windows Media Video demo clips from the HTPC is look great, but I don't have any other HD sources to try.

WSR gave the internal scaler a positive review and PJ central said you need an external scaler for the best picture quality. So who knows? Maybe it depends on the source, connection, resolution, settings, etc.

5mm just like the HS10 and HS20. Just don't install them too far.

Originally posted by bradbissell
5mm just like the HS10 and HS20. Just don't install them too far.

Many thanks my friend. Anything in particular as far as thread type? I need to head to Lowes or the Home Depot after work and pick them up. I only have tonight to play with the projector because I've got a huge paper to write on Sat and Sun for my Tuesday class. Having cool toys and going back to school is just a really, really bad combination!

Funny, my impressions are quite the opposite of yours! Oh well, whatever floats your boat :) The Sharp 12k is no doubt a great projector and the Sony is only less than half the price, so I guess it is OK. Regarding noise you saw on the screen, I am a bit surprised since I thought the Sony was very clean! Oh well, maybe I have a well conditioned unit, or maybe have been watching LCD for too long, so don't really know what noise-free means and don't know what the hell I am talking about! :D

So take my review with a grain of salt!!

Best Regards,

-Indranil.


Originally posted by Andrew P
I got my HS551 this morning and ive spent the past 6 hours testing it out. I currently own a Sharp 12000 for comparison.

The HS51 is very quiet especially in low mode and its compact. I notice screen door from my seating distance of 14 feet. I defocused slightly and this seemed to work. My biggest issue is that it appears that you are looking through a streaky window when I watch the unit. On pans I can clearly see noise (possibly vertical banding or more likely fixed panel noise). This annoys me to no end.

The contrast on the HS51 is good, but to my eyes the Sharp is clearly superior and has more punch (I run the Sharp in low lamp mode too). I ran the Sony in both. I could not watch the Stanford game on INHD1 on the HS51. I kept noticing the pans, noise etc. Im using a 96" Firehawk and I have total light control.

While I think the HS51 is a great improvement for LCD unfortunately it does not come close enough to the high end DLP's for overall picture quality (in my opinion). If you are bothered by the DLP shortcomings though then I think this maybe be the LCD unit for you.
Andy :D

Originally posted by Andrew P
I dont know what his previous projector experience is. I will admit I prefer DLP (the typical LCD shortcomings bother me more than the DLP shortcomings). I guess I know what to focus on when watching both technologies. Like I said the HS51 is good. I dont think it should come as a great surprise to anyone that it doesnt match up to a projector that streets closer to 6-7k. I hoped it did because then I could sell the 12000 and make some money in the process.
Andy
Hey Andy, sorry your first impressions were so contrary to what a lot of others have thought, including Darin's impressions. Curious, what sources and transports were you using? Did you unplug the connections from the Sharp and plug them into the Sony, or was something else at hand.

Anyway, I do not know what you paid for your unit, but what will you be selling it for used? I would think for less than what I new one could be ordered for, right? :D

I think he got from Crutchfield which has a hassle free 30 day return policy. I would not buy a PJ without a return policy too!

Originally posted by TheFerret
Hey Andy, sorry your first impressions were so contrary to what a lot of others have thought, including Darin's impressions. Curious, what sources and transports were you using? Did you unplug the connections from the Sharp and plug them into the Sony, or was something else at hand.

Anyway, I do not know what you paid for your unit, but what will you be selling it for used? I would think for less than what I new one could be ordered for, right? :D

Ah, I see. Well, that would explain the comfort-zone one could get with free-testing so to speak. Heck, maybe I should have gone that route, returned after the 'audition' (ahem, bad audition) and then placed order where I actually did for a lot less.

Andy,

How did the brightness compare between the HS51 and the 12k with its iris closed? I figured I might have to put the 12k on the High Power and the HS51 on the Firehawk to even out the white levels. Otherwise, just the brighter images can make artifacts more visible.

It sounds like you either got a unit with more VB or FPN than other people, or you are just more sensitive to it. This is one of my worries, since that stuff bothers me. I ordered from a place where I can test for a couple of hours and return it if there is something that bothers me too much. With this late shipment I'm still debating whether to keep my order or cancel it.

With more people getting these I'm hoping somebody near Seattle will get one and want to see it with an IMX lens and on the different screens I have.

--Darin

The problem with dropping a few grand and buying something unseen is unimaginable to now and I have been burned in the past. Some retailers are giving you a few horus to check it out. However I need more than that because you simply cannot evaulate a unit unless you have seen it extensively. I am willing to pay higher price for this feature. Also auditioning from Crutchfield and then buying from another place saves you money but there is no guarantee that you will get a satisfactory unit since the variation in LCD units is quite large in my experience (in terms of VB, FPN, etc). It varies from unit to unit.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ah, I see. Well, that would explain the comfort-zone one could get with free-testing so to speak. Heck, maybe I should have gone that route, returned after the 'audition' (ahem, bad audition) and then placed order where I actually did for a lot less.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ah, I see. Well, that would explain the comfort-zone one could get with free-testing so to speak. Heck, maybe I should have gone that route, returned after the 'audition' (ahem, bad audition) and then placed order where I actually did for a lot less.
I don't want to make this into a whole debate thread about this, but just wanted to weigh in that this (buying knowing that I would return it even if I liked it) isn't something I would feel right doing. Otherwise, I would have done it.
Originally posted by dandaroy
However I need more than that because you simply cannot evaulate a unit unless you have seen it extensively.
I agree that it can be tough. I'm fortunate that I've seen enough stuff and also have test material in mind that I'm not uncomfortable with a 4 hour test at all. For others who don't have as much experience I would suggest getting tests ready to look for dead or stuck on pixels (whole images of single red, green, and blue), misconvergence of panels and a reasonable VB or FPN test. If the beginning of the second "Lord of the Rings" movie or "Master and Commander" looks good in the fog then I would say most are good to go on that one.

--Darin

Darin, Indranil, I was joking. And had I thought as I actually written I would have not placed my order elsewhere, with a far less level of protection and comfort.

Could you imagine Sony doing what Infocus did for their business projectors and offer a by-mail in-home demo unit?

Originally posted by Andrew P
I got my HS551 this morning and ive spent the past 6 hours testing it out. I currently own a Sharp 12000 for comparison.


The contrast on the HS51 is good, but to my eyes the Sharp is clearly superior and has more punch (I run the Sharp in low lamp mode too). I ran the Sony in both. I could not watch the Stanford game on INHD1 on the HS51. I kept noticing the pans, noise etc. Im using a 96" Firehawk and I have total light control.

Andy

Did the Sony seem brighter than the 12k. I am assuming the 12k had to be high contrast mode if it is clearly superior in contrast ?

What do you mean by the Sharp had more punch?

Is there a large difference in iris auto vs iris off modes on the Sony?

Thanks for your review!

I cant answer your question but I do know that Audio Advice in Durham just got a 51 to Demo. They were showing it on a Fire Hawk and they thought it had a problem because it looked DULL. It had very little lumens with the iris on and the picture lacked punch. They (Audio Advice) seem to think the 51 has a problem but based on my viewing I think its just the nature of the projector and the iris. If you have a dedicated viewing theater that is totally black you should be OK, other than that buyer beware.

I could be completely wrong about this so take it with a grain of salt.

PS. The projector was not mounted above the Fire Hawk, and both the Marantz and Sharp DLPs I demoed were similar to me when comparing picture lumens.

Originally posted by Utopia
I cant answer your question but I do know that Audio Advice in Durham just got a 51 to Demo. They were showing it on a Fire Hawk and they thought it had a problem because it looked DULL. It had very little lumens with the iris on and the picture lacked punch. They (Audio Advice) seem to think the 51 has a problem but based on my viewing I think its just the nature of the projector and the iris. If you have a dedicated viewing theater that is totally black you should be OK, other than that buyer beware.

I could be completely wrong about this so take it with a grain of salt.

PS. The projector was not mounted above the Fire Hawk, and both the Marantz and Sharp DLPs I demoed were similar to me when comparing picture lumens.

hi Utopia

ok, so the sony is a little bit weak in light output when the iris is on, i have a room with white walls and a white ceiling and i also have a cheap screen (1,1 gain)

i am deciding between the hs50 and the Z3,panny 700, is the extra money worth for the hs50 in my room.

thanks in advance

Originally posted by Utopia
It had very little lumens with the iris on and the picture lacked punch.

If it was indeed in the iris on positions than it is not surprising that they thought it looked dull.
In order to get the full performance of this projector you need to run it in the IRIS AUTO mode.
If the iris is on, than it is in its fully closed position and then you are sure to get low lumens and crappy contrast.

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't think you understood my original post. Let me try this again:

OTA Broadcasters often stuff junk into the borders of their signal with the assumption that nobody will see it because of overscan. This is a tradition from the old analog days and seems to continue in many areas. It's most common on analog upconversions which are scaled to HD by the station. There are many examples of these artifacts... you'll have to search the other forums for examples. I can only assure you that there will be cases where you will want some overscan when watching over-the-air HDTV (either 720p or 1080i). If you don't agree with this need for overscan, then there's no point reading the rest of this message.

So how do you hide this garbage on a digital panel display? You have 2 choices:

1) Scale the image slightly larger than the actual display. In this case, let's say you scale it up to 1300x740. This doesn't fit into the 1280x720 panel so the outer 10 pixels on each side are cropped. Advantage is you're using the full 1280x720 pixels to display most of the original signal. Disadvantage is that you're introducing slight scaling scaling artifacts. This is what the Sony and most other projectors do with 1080i since that signal needs to be scaled anyway.

Or:

2) Don't scale the signal and simply display it with 1:1 pixel mapping. If you still want to hide the border, there is only 1 choice. You need to leave the outer border pixels black to cover up the original signal. My guess is that Sony took this choice because it produces a cleaner image (from a 1280x720 signal) without any scaling artifacts. The disadvantage is that you're not using the entire panel.

You don't see this issues on other projectors because they don't alternate between the 2 choices. They either always scale up or always mask the border (either digitally or optically). Sony got into trouble here because they switch between the 2 methods. This is much more noticeable to the viewer.

If you can think of a better way to mask a 1280x720 signal on a 1280x720 panel, I'd like to hear it. You have to remember this is a video projector. Not a computer display. This is why all the inputs except for VGA use some form of overscan. What you need is a "computer" mode for the other inputs that does the same thing as the VGA input. Sony had this option on the DVI port of their previous models (HS10 and HS20) for this exact reason. The option never existed on the HDMI/Component inputs because they assume they will only be used for video.

-Mark

Hmm, nobody responded to this yet. But this explanation seems to make sense to me. I feel better about this projector.

I am kinda curious on the lumen output as well. If the iris is in the 'On' position then the cr is below 1300:1 and probably not too bright. I thought the measured lumens with the iris in 'Auto' was around 500 lumens (and about 5800:1 cr)? If really near 500 lumens, the 51 should be quite a bit brighter than a 12k in high cr mode.

I guess its a matter of how one is interpreting cropping, blanking, etc. I do not look at them similar, but that is how I am implementing in my communications. Also, this will not resolve the issues for taskbars, sports score-tickers (via MyHD reception, etc.), etc. without introducing scaling, which is what some of us are trying to avoid.

I cannot see logic in why Sony would have 1080i interpreted any differently in terms of how they should be presented. Delivering a 1280x720 signal regardless of source should not matter, and should not be compromised. I would like verification, though, of someone else's suggestion regarding altering the refresh to >+/-1.5 from 60 Hz.

The contrast on the HS51 is good, but to my eyes the Sharp is clearly superior and has more punch (I run the Sharp in low lamp mode too). I ran the Sony in both. I could not watch the Stanford game on INHD1 on the HS51. I kept noticing the pans, noise etc. Im using a 96" Firehawk and I have total light control.

While I think the HS51 is a great improvement for LCD unfortunately it does not come close enough to the high end DLP's for overall picture quality (in my opinion). If you are bothered by the DLP shortcomings though then I think this maybe be the LCD unit for you.
Andy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at the Sony HS50 at two prominent dealer locations in Melbourne yesterday, both with different set-ups, I would have to agree with Andy, particularly with his last paragraph.
I will go a step further than his comment re the "high end DLP's"
In both situations yesterday, the contrast displayed by this new model, was not as good as the "LOW end DLP" NEC HT-1100.
Yes, good and better than what we have been used to with LCD's in this category, but I'm sure the figures being quoted for contrast on the Sony are in a way technically correct in the way in which Sony are quoting, but this in the real world is not transferring to the screen.

Ahhh, but the catch to Mark's (Wizziwig) theory is that if it was truly 1:1 pixel mapping and just masking the 'overscan' area it would display a signal feed of black and white 1x1 pixel checkerboard pattern as checkers on the screen not a grey blended picture as jschefdog has already demonstrated.

Here's a link to jschefdog's first pics to show what's going on. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4725317#post4725317)

For those too lazy to go back and read that post here's what it looks like:

Input A - 1:1 Pixel Mapping
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=30106

HDMI - 1280x720 computer input (720p)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=30107

As you can see the checkerboard pattern on Input A is crisp and well defined as well as the whole image appearing. The HDMI input has been processed, possibly scaled, causing the checkers to become a solid interpolated field of grey and it has also masked part of the image.

Originally posted by Utopia
I cant answer your question but I do know that Audio Advice in Durham just got a 51 to Demo. They were showing it on a Fire Hawk and they thought it had a problem because it looked DULL. It had very little lumens with the iris on and the picture lacked punch. They (Audio Advice) seem to think the 51 has a problem but based on my viewing I think its just the nature of the projector and the iris. If you have a dedicated viewing theater that is totally black you should be OK, other than that buyer beware.

I could be completely wrong about this so take it with a grain of salt.

PS. The projector was not mounted above the Fire Hawk, and both the Marantz and Sharp DLPs I demoed were similar to me when comparing picture lumens.

Are you saying the HS51 output was similar to the sharp and marantz? Or that the sharp and marantz were similar to each other

Originally posted by TheFerret
I do not believe for one moment that the active portion of the video is suppose to be blanked or overscanned. 1280x720 is where the content is and not the full resolution of the video stream. And even if this were the case, then why isn't it necessary on a great many other projectors without a detriment to the content area's quality? And Sony didn't seem to think it was necessary for 1080i, which only contraries your suggestion that the active content area needs blanking or overscan.

Sorry, but I find little water in your offering.

You are correct. All those broadcasting bits you do not see are not part of the 720p or 1080i pixel count - those are a description of the active picture area - at least as far as this shop is concerned. As far as overscan - I really haven't got any clear answer in this shop. As far as the engineers here are concerned there shouldn't be any - t'ain't analog no more. The stuff you shouldn't see is accounted for. :)

ted

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't think you understood my original post. Let me try this again:

OTA Broadcasters often stuff junk into the borders of their signal with the assumption that nobody will see it because of overscan. This is a tradition from the old analog days and seems to continue in many areas. It's most common on analog upconversions which are scaled to HD by the station. There are many examples of these artifacts... you'll have to search the other forums for examples. I can only assure you that there will be cases where you will want some overscan when watching over-the-air HDTV (either 720p or 1080i). If you don't agree with this need for overscan, then there's no point reading the rest of this message.

-Mark

Mark,
This is an interesting thought.
When we here in TV land (at least my plant) upconvert our SD material it is to both 1080i and 720p and we monitor the return signals from the carrier companies. SD has about 23 inactive lines (as far as picture is concerned) that are accounted for in this upconversion and remains in the inactive area. Again this is outside picture area which is either 720p or 1080i. So you should not see this "junk" which is useful to us (and you) btw. As far as this plant is concerned the only assumption being made is that we are providing you with all the picture area and the set manufacturers should be providing you with the same.
As far as I'm concerned they should be allowing you to adjust it as well.

ted

I liked the Sony HS51, but in my opinion it did not compare to the Sharp 12000. I wanted it to, but it didnt. The Sharp in low lamp looked brighter than the Sony in high lamp to my eyes. This is just my opinion of course. The contrast ratio on the Sharp seemed much better than the Sony as well. In all fairness im used to the DLP look. I dont like LCD and I noticed all of the LCD shortcomings on this unit (although vertical banding was rarely if ever noticeable).

I believe the Sharp still sells for greater than 6k and I can say without a doubt that the Sony is the better buy as the Sharp is probably not twice as good, but if you are used to the high end DLP look then this projector will not cut it for you. I really wanted to keep the Sony to save money, but the picture is just not up to par.

Its hard to put into words, but ill try. The Sharp looks very fimlike with deep blacks and the Sony looks good with average blacks. Its obvious when you compare on the screen. I used the Panasonic DVD-S97 for DVD via HDMI and the Comcast HDTV box for cable via component. In both instances the Sharp was clearly superior to the Sony projector. For LCD the Sony looked great, but to my eyes LCD is still clearly behind high end DLP.

Andy

From Utopia:

cant answer your question but I do know that Audio Advice in Durham just got a 51 to Demo. They were showing it on a Fire Hawk and they thought it had a problem because it looked DULL. It had very little lumens with the iris on and the picture lacked punch. They (Audio Advice) seem to think the 51 has a problem but based on my viewing I think its just the nature of the projector and the iris. If you have a dedicated viewing theater that is totally black you should be OK, other than that buyer beware.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From the two previews I had yesterday in two dealerships, I would have to totally agree with the above comment from the Durham dealer, in both cases I thought the image was dull and lacked dynamics.
In one case the HS50 was side by side with a Hitachi TX100 (a machine that I'm very much unfamiliar with) on the same 15' wide screen.
This TX100 had much more punch (as you call it), had much better flesh-tones
and better Shadow Detail.
On the negative side the Hitachi had some vertical banding that I could not easily pick with the Sony, but this was only noticeable when walking up close to the screen.

The thing that amazed me, with the image from both of these machines was here in Australia, there is *A$2000 difference in selling price. The big "S" of course the more expensive.

I would say anyone viewing the same preview I saw, would have gone for the TX100, even with the slight banding which could only be seen from a few feet away and maybe this can be tweaked anyways. Imagine the DVD's they could buy with an extra 2 grand to play with!

*NB: A$2000 = US$1564

Is this Hitachi popular in the States? How does it normally rate? Is it compared with other similar projectors?

Originally posted by Andrew P
I liked the Sony HS51, but in my opinion it did not compare to the Sharp 12000. I wanted it to, but it didnt. The Sharp in low lamp looked brighter than the Sony in high lamp to my eyes. This is just my opinion of course.
If this was with the iris closed on the Sharp and in AUTO iris on the Sony then that is somewhat surprising given that WideScreenReview said the Sony would be about 400 lumens (I think this was low lamp) and I know the 12k should only be maybe 200-250 lumens with the iris closed down and low lamp (could be lower if the lamp is older also). I believe that better ANSI or instantaneous CRs can make dimmer images look brighter, but even so I find this surprising.

--Darin

Andy: Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated and tells me what to look for once I get a chance to look at the Sony myself.

:) Darin, I'm was just comparing WSR:s reviews of Z12000 and HS51 because of Andy's review. I'm a little puzzled, the Sony should be brighter and the black level should be about the same.

Its hard to put into words, but ill try. The Sharp looks very fimlike with deep blacks and the Sony looks good with average blacks.

According to WSR the Z12000 had a measured black level of 0.0035 FL and Sony HS51 0.09 lumens, that's 0.0041 FL if my calculations are correct. Not much difference? The Sony is brighter though, with the same settings as for the black level measurement, contrast control set to maximum, the light output was 521 lumens (400 lumens with contrast control set to 80). Z12000 measured 262 lumens in high contrast mode. The contrast ratio of the Sony was 5768:1 compared to Sharps 3427:1. WSR also wrote:

On virtually all material, this projector
will never remind you that it is a fixed pixel
device. I also watched THX 1138, which has
a lot of bright, almost totally white scenes. You
will see slight screen door more often than
any limitation of black level is observed.

Andy, I'm not saying that your impressions of your HS51 are wrong in any way, but perhaps you got a bad HS51?

It is natural that a projector without lots of lumens look dull on a FIFTEEN FEET WIDE screen. Not many will use a greater width than ten feet.

The setup was comparing lumens and not projectors. If the setup had ambient light the hs50 would be completely destroyed on a screen that big.

Originally posted by Fishhooks
In one case the HS50 was side by side with a Hitachi TX100 (a machine that I'm very much unfamiliar with) on the same 15' wide screen.
This TX100 had much more punch (as you call it), had much better flesh-tones
and better Shadow Detail.

This is exactly the opposite of what many people reported from a Projector Expo held in Stockholm maybe a month ago. The TX100 looked like, well, not crap, but bad in comparison with the the HS50.

But then again, 15" wide screen is too big for the HS50.