Originally posted by Wizziwig
I don't think you understood my original post. Let me try this again:

OTA Broadcasters often stuff junk into the borders of their signal with the assumption that nobody will see it because of overscan. This is a tradition from the old analog days and seems to continue in many areas. It's most common on analog upconversions which are scaled to HD by the station. There are many examples of these artifacts... you'll have to search the other forums for examples. I can only assure you that there will be cases where you will want some overscan when watching over-the-air HDTV (either 720p or 1080i). If you don't agree with this need for overscan, then there's no point reading the rest of this message.

So how do you hide this garbage on a digital panel display? You have 2 choices:

1) Scale the image slightly larger than the actual display. In this case, let's say you scale it up to 1300x740. This doesn't fit into the 1280x720 panel so the outer 10 pixels on each side are cropped. Advantage is you're using the full 1280x720 pixels to display most of the original signal. Disadvantage is that you're introducing slight scaling scaling artifacts. This is what the Sony and most other projectors do with 1080i since that signal needs to be scaled anyway.

Or:

2) Don't scale the signal and simply display it with 1:1 pixel mapping. If you still want to hide the border, there is only 1 choice. You need to leave the outer border pixels black to cover up the original signal. My guess is that Sony took this choice because it produces a cleaner image (from a 1280x720 signal) without any scaling artifacts. The disadvantage is that you're not using the entire panel.

You don't see this issues on other projectors because they don't alternate between the 2 choices. They either always scale up or always mask the border (either digitally or optically). Sony got into trouble here because they switch between the 2 methods. This is much more noticeable to the viewer.

If you can think of a better way to mask a 1280x720 signal on a 1280x720 panel, I'd like to hear it. You have to remember this is a video projector. Not a computer display. This is why all the inputs except for VGA use some form of overscan. What you need is a "computer" mode for the other inputs that does the same thing as the VGA input. Sony had this option on the DVI port of their previous models (HS10 and HS20) for this exact reason. The option never existed on the HDMI/Component inputs because they assume they will only be used for video.

-Mark

Mark - this was an interesting explanation to read about, thanks. However I'm trying to then figure out what's so special about my Sharp 10K considering I do not ever see this garbage information on any of the 720p HD feeds (ABC HD, ESPN HD, FOX HD) yet have a full 1:1 pixel perfect display.

First off let me be more precise in saying that the 2 DLPs I saw were the older Marantz and Sharp both before the dimple fix. I have never seen the new Panny so I cant help anyone decide on which to get, and even if I did I still couldn't.

Regarding the Sony the dealer just received it the day I came so they were still getting to know the menu functions and when I was there I specifically remember going in to the iris function and putting it on and off. I don't remember seeing auto for the iris function. I will look for it next time and see how much that changes the picture. As a matter of fact when we switched the iris on and then later went to dynamic picture the projector automatically shut the iris off. Over all the picture was very nice and it had good depth and was very smooth with no noticeable SD at about 8ft. It just didn't WOW me and it had to be in complete darkness or the picture washed out a little. Both the DLPs I saw were the same way they needed dedicated black rooms to get the picture to come alive.

Once again please don't draw any conclusions because it might not have been adjusted for the optimum picture and the iris was not on auto. FYI only.

As a matter of fact the dealer was so unimpressed they think there is something wrong with the unit they received. I will call them today and mention about putting the iris in auto and try to get back out there to see it. I know some members on here are from RTP if you get a chance go out to Audio Advice take a peek and let us know what you think.

PS Mention to Randy about putting the iris in auto.

Happy Holidays to all.

Originally posted by tvted
You are correct. All those broadcasting bits you do not see are not part of the 720p or 1080i pixel count - those are a description of the active picture area - at least as far as this shop is concerned. As far as overscan - I really haven't got any clear answer in this shop. As far as the engineers here are concerned there shouldn't be any - t'ain't analog no more. The stuff you shouldn't see is accounted for. :) ted Cool, I'm glad I'm not nuts in this area. Its unfortunate that accommodations were not made in at least the service menu for blanking to be adjustable. What is there to fear in affording the user or setup technician the ability to custom-set this aspect for the application at hand? Also, there should have been accommodation for PC-signaling where blanking just ain't there. Period. And I still find it most puzzling that Sony felt that 720P signals needed blanking and 1080i did not. This is Engrish all over again!

Im not an expert by any means nor did I measure lumens, etc. This is what my perception was. When I put the HS51 picture on I thought this is a nice picture but when the Sharp was on I got lost in the picture (great depth, contrast flimlike image)

It could be my bias of LCD's. I obviously knew which unit I was looking at and every time I had the Sony up I noticed all the LCD weaknesses. I dont know what to technically call it, but the fact that it felt like I was looking through a window at the image bothered me. I know DLP isnt great with panning, but I felt like there was fixed panel noise or something to that effect which really ruined my enjoyment of the image. I think it would be easier going from an entry level projector to the Sony.

I was hoping to be blown away by the Sony (maybe unrealistic high expectations) and maybe the Contrast numbers of 5800 vs 4000 are not that different in real world applications. Im going to keep trying the Sony though. Just not a great first day for me.

IRIS- There is a huge perception difference when you use auto vs on. I set it both ways, but you can clearly see the difference when you switch the iris to 'on'. Your eyes will adjust, but until they do the picture looks really washed out.

How does the Sony HS51 compare to projectors in it's price class like the BenQ PE8700+?

Andy, I did not take your impressions negatively, because I knew many things can be different in the environment, setup, and the comparitive entity one has at hand. For instance, my first impressions of the AE700 were not positive. I kept having to 'reset' my thinking as a reminder of those potential variables at potential play. Are you really using this ona 15' wide screen? Can you take a picture of your room for us to better understand your environment? How about using some thin cardboard and blocking the left-right portions of the lenses of both projectors and letting us see what you are seeing?

Originally posted by BrianKR
How does the Sony HS51 compare to projectors in it's price class like the BenQ PE8700+? Find me a new Benq PE8700+ streeting for $2700, please.

Im using a 96" Firehawk. I think the 15 foot screen was from another post. I think its most likely my preference for DLP. Im used to the image that DLP produces so the shortcomings are so minor to me. Im hoping I can get lost in the image tomorrow when I watch football. I put on INHD and watched coming attractions and those looked great on the Sony.

Like I said is the Sharp twice as good? No, but when you are used to it its difficult for me at least after 1 day.
Andy

I dont have a digital camera so I cant take any pics.

Find me a new Benq PE8700+ streeting for $2700, please.

At least they are in the same area code

" If this is your first projector purchase im sure you will be very impress"

Great! This is my first projector!

Not at AVS they aren't. One is the in po-folks forum and the other in the rich-man's forum. :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
Cool, I'm glad I'm not nuts in this area.
I'm glad you were being specific - because I've read some of your other thoughts.:D

Its unfortunate that accommodations were not made in at least the service menu for blanking to be adjustable. What is there to fear in affording the user or setup technician the ability to custom-set this aspect for the application at hand? Also, there should have been accommodation for PC-signaling where blanking just ain't there. Period. And I still find it most puzzling that Sony felt that 720P signals needed blanking and 1080i did not. This is Engrish all over again!

For me 'blanking' is a specific terminology that refers to the portion of the signal outside the picture area i.e. FRONT PORCH, SYNCH, BURST, and BACK PORCH, all having specific timing relationships to the overall signal. We don't play with blanking width - either vertical or horizontal. We do sometimes adjust picture start to avoid black bars on any side of the picture when an image area is displaced.

If my reading in this thread is correct the Sony is showing a full 1280 x 720p with *no* pixel cropping correct? Our terminology would call this an underscanned image i.e. it is not filling the available screen area - we monitor our signals this way. However a button push expands the image out to fill the screen. At home the receiver takes this image and expands it further to "overscan" the image. Our monitors (unless cheap) do not. - Its why we utilse what is called "Safe Title" and "Safe Area" markers to ensure that important info (text for the most part) is visible at home. Since Digital equipment has been introduced - because it provides full *picture* we have to adjust for Overscan considerations - a real pain for Cameramen (Box Pointers ;) )who have to adjust their framing when it is being passed through processeing - a DVE for instance - before that signal is sent to air.

I apologise for being didactic - just indicating where I come from. I entirely agree with you - this is a display device in the digital age (and still a specialized piece of equipment "Consumer branding notwithstanding) and at this point in the game there is *no* reason that a manufacturer should not allow the adjustment of the picture to take full advantage of the available picture area.

ted

Originally posted by Andrew P

IRIS- There is a huge perception difference when you use auto vs on. I set it both ways, but you can clearly see the difference when you switch the iris to 'on'. Your eyes will adjust, but until they do the picture looks really washed out.

Andy from what I have read IRIS-auto is the "magic" magic mode for the HS51 are you saying that iRIS-on looks better?

What IRIS mode are you running the Sharp 12k in?

The reason I am very interested in your review is that the 12k is my benchmark digital pj.

Well don't bother going to Demo the Sony at AV they are convinced there is something wrong with the unit and our shipping it back to Sony. But first I will be checking it out at my house for the next few days comparing it to my HS-10. Let me know if you have any questions while I have the unit in my hands.

Auto IRIS looks better for the Sony HS51 if you dont have total light control. I ran it both ways and I always run the Sharp in high contrast mode.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Andy from what I have read IRIS-auto is the "magic" magic mode for the HS51 are you saying that iRIS-on looks better?

What IRIS mode are you running the Sharp 12k in?

The reason I am very interested in your review is that the 12k is my benchmark digital pj.


Yes I would like to know the answer to this question to. When I was watching IT DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THE PICTURE WAS MUCH BETTER WITH IRIS ON. The only discernible differences was the picture was dimmer with iris on.

But that was watching for just 10mins. After I get my hands on the 51 in about an hour I will report back tomorrow with more in depth information and details.

Ted, good explanation all around. I see what you mean and can see even where I was mosusing blanking. Interesting aspect regarding underscanning, too. Ideas for what could cause this in a projector (not specifically to the Sony)?

Originally posted by Utopia
Yes I would like to know the answer to this question to. When I was watching IT DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THE PICTURE WAS MUCH BETTER WITH IRIS ON. The only discernible differences was the picture was dimmer with iris on.
That's about the only difference I think you should see. I believe that "on" just means closed down in this case and "off" means open. So, there would be a lumens change and a slight CR change between these. However, nothing like the auto or dynamic iris that is really the magic of this one.

--Darin

What screen would be the best match for the HS51?

Originally posted by Andrew P
Auto IRIS looks better for the Sony HS51 if you dont have total light control. I ran it both ways and I always run the Sharp in high contrast mode.

General Summary
Screen: 96" wide Firehawk
Sharp 12k in IRIS high contrast mode
Sony HS51 in IRIS-auto mode

Conclusions
1) "The Sharp in low lamp looked brighter than the Sony in high lamp to my eyes"
2) Sony has less contrast and punch than the Sharp
30 Sony has LCD issues

Thanks for the review keep it comming!

What is your viewing room like in terms of color?

3) Sony has LCD issues


What LCD issues (meaning)?

Scanlines, rainbows, and low production yields on panels. :D

LCD issues meaning slight vertical banding and fixed panel noise. Im still giving the Sony a try and I really want to like it, but im just not there yet.

Well, I have pretty discerning eyes. Its took me a couple of milliseconds to see VB on the new Panny. Let's see what happens when I get a chance to see the new Sony. What would be a good FPN test material?

I notice it on every pan especially on anything light blue, grey, or white.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ted, good explanation all around. I see what you mean and can see even where I was mosusing blanking. Interesting aspect regarding underscanning, too. Ideas for what could cause this in a projector (not specifically to the Sony)?

None really, other than the way the HS20 was implemented - a larger panel with a 1280x720 rectangle within and I know that is not the reason. I don't know PJ tech all that well and am a ne'er-do-well with the stuff I operate.

Sorry no help here.
ted

Originally posted by TheFerret
Well, I have pretty discerning eyes. Its took me a couple of milliseconds to see VB on the new Panny. Let's see what happens when I get a chance to see the new Sony. What would be a good FPN test material?

I just compared the 8700 to the AE700 today. As far as Contrast, Luminance, etc. ad nauseum I found them comparable. I did however notice the VB - will see another AE700 next week to get an idea of unit level differences and will have to decide whether to spend the extra or not take my job home with me.;)

I think I preferred the overall PQ (dare I say "feel"?) of the BenQ but the moment it was turned on it felt like my eyes were crossing and my head being squeezed and this was without the help of chemicals.:D

I've had this reaction before with DLPs so I guess I'm a good candidate for fatigue and have no way of knowing whether I could get over it. So it seems I will be living with an LCD - thankfully no one else I know is likely to complain and it probably be used more often by them than me.

ted

OK got the projector home and I can say I hope there is something wrong with it because it is dull and dim. Iris is on auto. I prefer the HS-10 picture because it is more vibrant even at the low CR and grey blacks.

Any way I am hoping there is a problem with the lamp output OH-OH and will wait to see the new unit before reporting any more.

Ive spent another few hours with the Sony today. I recalibrated the entire unit using auto iris and low lamp mode. I think the lumens appear equal to the 12000 (maybe even slightly higher). I may have had a calibration error with the Sony yesterday as ive tweaked so many different items. I wish they added a color degrees instead of high, medium, and low. You can adjust color yourself, but I have no idea how to accurately do this without the proper equipment. I set the color to low-but I have no idea if this is correct or what the degree value at low is.

I am trying so hard to not notice the FPN or the ever so slight vertical banding. When I put both of these items out of my head I really like the picture that this produces. The blacks are impressive. I watched Lord of the Rings in Starz HD and it looked phenominal. I didnt A/B it with the Sharp, but like I said the picture was great. Screendoor well I still notice it from 14 feet away, but im dealing with it. If I can get past the VB and FPN I could live with this projector. Of course I am all about the contrast ratio and with my new settings (and different source material) it looks much improved.

I still like the 12000 better, but like I said earlier if I can make some money on that and pass the time until the better DLP projectors (auto IRIS and greater resolution) I think keeping the Sony may be the smart move. These projectors drop in value so quickly and I dont want to lose 1-2k for a slightly better picture.

Utopia
WSR reported 400-500 lumens for hs51 when calibrated. Projectorcentral reported 240 ANSI lumen and later said something might have been wrong with the bulb. Twice the lulmens might give the projector a totally different look.
In your viewing has light control been good to perfect?
The unconfirmed rumor from one member about a hs51 recall of some units in a reply mentioned lamp issues. We will have to wait and see.

My overview is that a working hs51 is a great projector. If it is not working (some lamp issue) and lumens are low is not indicative of the true potential. There are better projectors but they cost more.

Here's an example of a 1280x720 signal from ABC (Monsters Inc.) that shows you one example of overscan artifacts (flashing green line on the right side). Another poster here mentioned a similar issues at the top or bottom of the screen on another projector. These problem would not have been seen by 99% of the viewers using a display with overscan.

You can argue as long as you want that these things should not exist in HDTV, but the reality is that many local stations still have these sort of problems. I'm not defending Sony here, I'm just pointing out a reason why they may have designed the HS50 the way they did. They were probably just being conservative and hoping to avoid displaying these artifacts for some customers. As to why the image on HDMI appears less crisp, it's probably because Sony assumes that input will be displaying video and does some additional processing that's disabled on the computer input. They could also be doing a combination of scaling and masking/blanking in order to minimize the change in displayed image size while still providing the required overscan. I know there are other projectors which always display the full 1280x720 signal. That's fine if you have good clean signals that don't require overscan. Sony just needs to provide some menu control to make everyone happy.

-Mark

There is no rationale that can be placed before me that would justify the mandatory implementation of overscan into the active picture area for Component and HDMI inputs. Sorry, you can show as many poor local affiliates in their inability to broadcast a clean 720P signal, but OTA DTV in those affiliates is not a global condition, and certainly shouldn't be treated with mandatory penalization.

On fixed pixel displays there should be a requirement in the USA to protect consumers so that they get what they are paying for. And it appears that many other products can easily, safely, and effectively delivered to the marketplace without naive misconceptions of broadcast OTA DTV to do what Sony did.

Originally posted by Utopia
OK got the projector home and I can say I hope there is something wrong with it because it is dull and dim. Iris is on auto. I prefer the HS-10 picture because it is more vibrant even at the low CR and grey blacks.

Any way I am hoping there is a problem with the lamp output OH-OH and will wait to see the new unit before reporting any more.

The clincher would be to compare IRIS-off on HS51 to the HS10. The HS10 is not a very bright pj, especially using the cinema filter and cinema black. If the HS51 is still not as bright using IRIS-off then clearly there is a problem.

Hi!

I live in Germany and could buy the HS50 for a really good price (2300 Euros). However, the problem of this projector not beeing able to operate a direct 1:1 Pixel mapping via a digital input (HDMI) is a BIG issue for me. I really hope that Sony will address this problem by providing a firmware update. Well, here comes my question: The European version of this projector (HS50) lacks the usb port in comparison to the US-model (HS51). So if such a firmware update will be provided by Sony, how would I be able to upload it without having a usb or network port on the European model?

Burnz.

Someone way back there asked about the dimensions of the lens zoom an and focus ring. I took some meaurements as best I could with a dial caliper and here is what I found.

The Zoom ring is closest to the front of the PJ and is the largest. It is silver and has a tapered cross section so these dimensions are too the highest point. I should also point out that there is a depression in the diagonal grill around the ring, so the ring itself is thicker, but from the height from the top of the grill to the top of the ring is 5/32". This dimension does not change measurably as you zoom. The ring diameter is 3 5/8"

The Focus ring cross section is more square and it is black. It projects outward from the inside of the zoom ring. The height does change as you focus, and ranges from 21/64 to 23/64 above the zoom ring. The diameter is 2 59/64".

Originally posted by Ufdah
As you can see the checkerboard pattern on Input A is crisp and well defined as well as the whole image appearing. The HDMI input has been processed, possibly scaled, causing the checkers to become a solid interpolated field of grey and it has also masked part of the image.
At first I thought 1280x720 to HDMI was being scaled as well as cropped. However, I did a quick test with a large window that fit inside the cropping. I measured it using HDMI then switched to Input A and measured again. Within the accuracy I could get with the tape measure it was the same size. So if it is scaling on HDMI it is very slight. I think my first impression was just an illusion caused by the cropping and the different appearance.

The HDMI input does appear to be processing the image in some way. My guess is that it is doing some type of smoothing or averaging across pixels. Not only does the checkerboard background become uniform gray, but text looks smoother close up, not as pixelated. It is kind of like anti-aliasing. I will try to post some screen shots of this effect later.

I finally had a chance to do a comparison with video last night. I played a scene from Shrek 2 using both Input A and HDMI. It is hard to A/B quickly since I can't just switch between the inputs. The video overlay is only displayed on the primary display. So I have to stop it, exit TheaterTek, switch the primary display under Display Settings, then restart TheaterTek.

Even with this delay I could tell a difference. The HDMI input looks a little smoother at the expense of sharpness and detail. It isn't dramatic and if you never saw 1 to 1 pixel mapping on Input A you might never realize it was occuring. Some people might actually prefer it and I suspect it might hide some minor image flaws. I have noticed that 1 to 1 pixel mapping hides no flaws in the source. In older films I see the grain much more clearly than on my old CRT projector which is pretty soft.

Ohlson & ted1001:

Re the 15' wide screen posted earlier with the HS50 and TX100.

They were both sharing the same screen at the same time, thus just over 7' wide image in each case.

I would love to love this new Sony, I have been a Sony fan since 1970, favoring their electronic products over similar items from other manufacturers. Guess it's like some folks who always stick with the same manufacturer of cars.

My first "real" projector was the VPL -VW10HT some years back which I enjoyed for a long time until an NEC HT-1000 found it's way onto the same screen and showed me what movies should look like at home!
(No, not the lamp getting old in the Sony, I had replaced the lamp at the same time as the HT-1000 showed it's potential)

For movies ex DVD, I would still back the NEC as better than this Sony newbie. The HT-1100 is a bit better than the HT-1000 also.
They, (NEC) I feel found some form of perfect formula for reproducing a true movie look in the home. (Yes, I know it's an old fashioned 4:3)
Regardless of the contrast figures being claimed for the HS50/51, whilst it may be better than what has been around in this LCD class, I'll still back the DLP's which have found fame in this regard and share a similar price level.
I feel confident in saying this, as here in Australia the HS50 and HT-1100 are within a couple of hundred dollars of each other in price.

For HD TV particularly sport, I will lean toward the Sony. The higher spec. must win-out in this case, but that's not to say the DLP's at similar prices are shy either.

I think (without offending anyone), there were great expectations with this new Sony and I'm not saying that it is not good and progressive since their recent models, but it's not as amazing as I feel some were wanting it to be.
I'm sorry, but I do not believe the claimed contrast ratio as being "real world"
no matter how their method of stating the spec. is.

I am basing my comments purely on the general picture quality obtained from DVD and HDTV with these machines. I feel more than confident in this area, I worked with Film and TV picture quality and alignment for 40 years.

I'll leave the pure technical discussion to others.

Looking for a little direction…

I have a HS51 on order, this will me my first PJ. I have followed this thread from the start. I must say that I am more than a little leery of staying the course and waiting for my HS51. I have certainly lost most of the excitement and confidence in my decision to go front PJ. Can anyone give some help/insight as to what I will need to test and calibrate the new PJ? My sources will be cable, HDTV, Denon 1910 DVD, and ATI Radeon AIW 9600Pro. What reference DVDs/software should I buy? Given that I have no PJ point of reference, how do I determine if the lumen output is appropriate for this projector or not? I would like to be prepared for my four hour test period.

bkh7434, your questions are not necessarily specific to the Sony, but rather a very common set of questions first-time DIY projector owners typically ask. I could ask a ton of questions in return before even attempting to be effective in trying to guide you down the path most beneficial to you.

Anyway, here are my questions to you:

1.) What is the viewing environment going to be? Will is me 100% complete light control, mostly, partially or no light control. Is this a dedicated space or multifunction room? Will the walls ceiling, etc. be of light-colored nature, or somthing else?

2.) Your stated sources are cable (SDTV?), HDTV (from what source/s?), DVD, and a PC. What are the best video transport outputs for each of these? HDTV would be best with DVI/HDMI, then RGB (VGA), and then Component. What is the purpose of the PC, use-wise? Is this an scaling DVD player (affording 720P/1080i output), or one just offering 480i/P?

3.) What is the make, model, and size screen you are going to be using if its name-brand? If not, do you have a DIY screen (HD paint, Goo, etc.), or just projecting onto a wall/sheet (don't laugh, some have done exactly this)? If its known, what will the screen size and format be, and the gain if known?

4.) How far do you plan on having the 'sweet spot' seat from the screen. We usually refer this distance in terms of screen-width's. Will this be a shelf, bookcase, or ceiling mounted application?

Okay, this is a start. Many will suggest getting something like Avis of Digital Video Essentials, but depending on your application those might have ,imited benefit to you. I would do an out of the box first experience and see what your impressions are. Good luck!

Originally posted by Wizziwig
Here's an example of a 1280x720 signal from ABC (Monsters Inc.) that shows you one example of overscan artifacts (flashing green line on the right side). Another poster here mentioned a similar issues at the top or bottom of the screen on another projector. These problem would not have been seen by 99% of the viewers using a display with overscan.

You can argue as long as you want that these things should not exist in HDTV, but the reality is that many local stations still have these sort of problems.
-Mark

Mark,
That doesn't look like data that would outside of the active picture are - if it were it would appear as a horizonatal line.
This looks like a horizonal blanking (in TV terms - see my earlier message) issue - this could a broadcast or cable company problem with their blanking width or picture start being in the wrong place - unless it is the Sony that has these issues. Why it would be green is a puzzle to me - unfortunately I am about to be off work for a while so I cannot query the engineers but I will keep you pic.

ted

Originally posted by TheFerret
There is no rationale that can be placed before me that would justify the mandatory implementation of overscan into the active picture area for Component and HDMI inputs. Sorry, you can show as many poor local affiliates in their inability to broadcast a clean 720P signal, but OTA DTV in those affiliates is not a global condition, and certainly shouldn't be treated with mandatory penalization.

On fixed pixel displays there should be a requirement in the USA to protect consumers so that they get what they are paying for. And it appears that many other products can easily, safely, and effectively delivered to the marketplace without naive misconceptions of broadcast OTA DTV to do what Sony did.

Well, I personally agree with you. The purpose of my post was simply to illustrate a possible reason for Sony's decision. They didn't crop 1280x720 just to piss people off, it must have made sense to someone.

I hope you guys get Sony to add user control for this setting. I used to own the HS10 and HS20 which had similar issues on non-DVI inputs. It was never corrected on those models so I doubt anything will change on the HS50. Good luck!

-Mark

Edit: I would ask Sony for a "computer" mode for the HDMI input (maybe also Component). This would turn off all scaling and processing that reduces sharpness. Since they already to this on the VGA input, it should be easy for them to understand what you want.

Originally posted by Fishhooks
Ohlson & ted1001:

Re the 15' wide screen posted earlier with the HS50 and TX100.

They were both sharing the same screen at the same time, thus just over 7' wide image in each case.


Was the HS50 set to IRIS-auto?

Side by side viewing is a poor way to evaluate pjs. The higher CR pj will suffer in comparison to the brighter pj, and in fact will have its CR advantage nullified by the ambient light!

Fishhooks
I can understand what you are saying. I think the point where hs51 has a weak spot compared with dlp is ANSI cr and this should be most noticable in higher APL scenes. The light output can be limited on hs50 but is fine in a controlled environment. Fill factor could be better adn a dlp might have a more solid look.

Still I will say that a demo side by side is not the best way to show true performance. In Stockholm I saw a demo with the same model projectors but on the same screen and alternating between the two projectors. One projector was blocked while the other was projecting. Then hs51 was clearly better than tx100.

Originally posted by bkh7434
Looking for a little direction…

I have a HS51 on order, this will me my first PJ. I have followed this thread from the start. I must say that I am more than a little leery of staying the course and waiting for my HS51. I have certainly lost most of the excitement and confidence in my decision to go front PJ. Can anyone give some help/insight as to what I will need to test and calibrate the new PJ? My sources will be cable, HDTV, Denon 1910 DVD, and ATI Radeon AIW 9600Pro. What reference DVDs/software should I buy? Given that I have no PJ point of reference, how do I determine if the lumen output is appropriate for this projector or not? I would like to be prepared for my four hour test period.

If you have good light control, the HS51 in low light mode, on a 87" x 49" 1.0 gain screen will be brighter than you are likely to see at any local cinema.

Ferret, here are some answers. I will now go get a JD&Coke before the filleting begins.

1) There is 100% light control, but I do not wish to sit a completely dark room. This is a multipurpose room, but the HT “corner” is 14’ by 18’. The screen wall and ceiling are a dark slate gray/green color and other walls are a dark Taupe/beige color. The carpet is a multi-color, neither light nor dark.
2) Currently my SDTV and HDTV source is COX cable in Northern VA. The 1910 is a scaling DVD (720p/1080i). The use of the PC is mainly basic gaming. The setup plan is to use component from the cable box, DVD and PC to a Denon 2805 and then component to the PJ. HDMI from the DVD direct to the PJ is also possible.
3) The new current plan (after reading the low light posts) is to bite another bullet and go with the Vutec Silverstar 92” diag.
4) Seating can be placed anywhere less than 18’ from the screen. This will be a ceiling mount and due to the placement of a support beam the PJ will be within a couple of inches of its short throw focus limit. I hope that the formulas supplied in the Sony manual are correct.

I truly welcome any comments. I am questioning processes around the “after optimization” and “after calibration” references throughout this and other threads. I do not see myself becoming a PJ guru, but I do believe a little effort yields better satisfaction.

bkh7434, I know you are a good guy by mentioning the JD&Coke. :) Let me make one, too. Mine start with 32-ounce cups, which is also my coffee mug size.

Cool, so you have a space with good light control, but there will be ambient light control. At this point any ambient light may affected the highest performance in contrast this product can put out. At this point, and without having you buy/rent anything I would suggest the out of box experience and see if you like it in any of the pre-configured modes.

If you want to go cheap, then by all means get the Avia and DVE DVD's and start playing around and use the User memories for experimentation. If you want to get more serious, then I might suggest that you rent Colorfacts for about $300 (I think its a month's rental). This will includes calibration software and a good colorimeter, I think. This is exactly what I plan on doing, but only after a couple-hundred hours are on the lamp.

Beyond these stages, I would suggest any calibration, simple of complex, be done with no ambient light at all to help minimize waste light from being projected onto the screen, and back at your eyes. What kind of lighting do you imagine you, or someone else, might typically want?

In regards to your planned setup I would warn that its probably best to calibrate each input on the projector being used. Now, if that input is shared for several sources this could get tricky. Is there a required to pass all video signals through the Denon other than switching for the one Comonent input? Also, why are you using Component out from the PC and not RGB? If memeory serves me right, I think someone posted that Input A (PC Input) can be RGB or Component.

I'm sorry I should have asked - is that from the HS51 - I just assumed it was or is it from something else?
If something else is it a CRT or LCD/PLASMA/ or PJ?
Is this the way the error looks all the time i.e. a vertical green stripe?
Is it visible only from some stations?
Does it appear on other sources?

not that i'll have a clue
ted:confused:

Re the 15' screen:

Of course each projector was masked off at times so as not to attack each other, and the Sony was tried on the different iris settings.
I think the main thing I was looking for and did not see was this 'fantastic' contrast claim. There was clearly no appreciable difference between the two units.
The dealership where this main test took place is without doubt the main Sony dealership in Melbourne Aust. They also handle Sony Broadcast and Professional gear.
Hitachi would be the "poor-relation" in their business.

The first thing the salesman said to me, before firing up the projectors was "I hope you are not coming here to see the rumored "contrast" on the HS50 that everyone is expecting"
His second comment, again before firing up, was the question, "What projector are you used to or considering replacing"?
When I mentioned the NEC HT-1100, he smiled and said: Then you have no need to be here at all!

I repeat again from my earlier post that I generally love Sony products and have stuck by them for 34 years now. I would also say that I don't think this new projector is bad in any way, it's a nice machine, but to go back to what someone else posted, it seems to lack "Punch" (not my words, but I can relate to it)

Compared to similar priced DLP's it would win-out on HD TV, but for DVD movies, whether injected into the DVI or Component holes from a good quality player, the NEC HT-1100 leaves it for dead! """for PUNCH''''''
(N.B. If you are not bothered by DLP Rainbows that some see)

As requested, I tried some of the other supported HDMI resolutions listed on page 56 of the manual using Powerstrip on my HTPC. I got a variety of image sizes and shapes, but every single one had the black border/cropping that I see at 1280x720. I was not able to get any of the 1920x1080i Powerstrip settings to work with my graphics card, even the one listed as "ATI". However I did try the 1920x540p HDTV setting and it worked. It still had a black border and cropping, but less than at 1280x720. Probably doesn't matter since it still isn't 1 to 1 pixel mapping, but it is interesting.

I also set it to 1280x720@60Hz, then shifted the frequency up and down. I could go up and down several Hz with no affect on the image. I even tried 1280x720@48Hz and 1280x720@72Hz, but the result was the same. This made me wonder if Powerstrip is affecting the frequency on the DVI output. Maybe only the resolution matters for DVI?

So as far as I can tell, anything going into the HDMI input gets the black borders.

Originally posted by tvted
I'm sorry I should have asked - is that from the HS51 - I just assumed it was or is it from something else?
If something else is it a CRT or LCD/PLASMA/ or PJ?
Is this the way the error looks all the time i.e. a vertical green stripe?
Is it visible only from some stations?
Does it appear on other sources?

not that i'll have a clue
ted:confused:

It's not a screen shot. It's a frame extracted from the mpeg2 transport stream that was recorded to a PC. I was just trying to show that some ABC_HD stations send out 1280x720 frames with garbage on the sides. This would not be visible on any projector/display with overscan (including the HS50/51).

Ferret,
Thanks for the point in the right direction. I will start with the Avia and DVE DVD’s, are these sold by forum sponsors and/or do you know of a good source?
With respect to my setup, I received some pretty bad A/V source advice here in Northern VA, I was specifically told that I did not the RGB cable because the component output was the best and should be shared through the receiver. I am now working to solve the missing cable problem (Conduit fits the cables fine, but not the head of the RGB cable).
Thanks Again

Here are a couple of pictures which attempt to show the smoothing on HDMI that I described earlier. They also provide some idea of the amount of cropping.

Attached is a screen shot of the lower left corner using Input A 1 to 1 pixel mapped. As you can see, the black text on a white background appears thin and the upper right corner of "n" and "h" is a white pixel, not black.

And here is HDMI. Notice that the black text looks thicker and smoother and there is no white pixel in the upper right of "n" and "h". The appearance is not necessarily worse, but different and not 1 to 1 pixel mapping.

Originally posted by Wizziwig
It's not a screen shot. It's a frame extracted from the mpeg2 transport stream that was recorded to a PC. I was just trying to show that some ABC_HD stations send out 1280x720 frames with garbage on the sides. This would not be visible on any projector/display with overscan (including the HS50/51).

I realize, but I doubt its anything that the broadcaster has put there - its unlikely to be data. Do you think this is a 1281x720 or is one pixel from each 720p line of picture area missing and filled in with green data?
So this is visible on your underscanned PC monitor?
Have you sent it to a 1:1 pixel mapped display and seen the same thing?

I'm asking this because I agree manufacturers might be overscanning their display because they have always done it this way, but with a digitally addressed flat display it should not be necessary and I think undesirable, thus I consider it very wrong.

Believe me I understand the point you are making but I am interested in the above as a technical problem of which I do not believe that overscanning is the solution for, no matter how it is explained.

ted

bkh7434, Amazon sells the Ovation Avia DVD for about $38 and DVE for about $18.

Hey John (jschefdog), that's pretty interesting regarding the RGB & HDMI images of the Start menu. It does appear that some additional processing is going on for the HDMI. Previously, people noted that Sony did a good job with SDTV (something I couldn't less about) and I wonder if they took the initiatve to make the HDMI only a video interface and not a open interface (capable of computer signals). Since you cannot do 1080i, which is interesting, I would like to see if someone else can do an RGB/HDMI for 1080i using the Start menu.

Fishooks,

"I think the main thing I was looking for and did not see was this 'fantastic' contrast claim. There was clearly no appreciable difference between the two units."

At this CR level, you'd only see the difference in a room with extremely good light control. Was that the case?

How soon we forget. A few months ago no one would have believed somebody was disappointed that an LCD pj didn't have better CR than an HT1100.

I am not sure they even have the hs51 in auto iris mode. If the contrast looks similar between the two units then I doubt it. Have the dealer put a 0 ire screen up and compare the black level. The auto iris should kick in and the black level should be much lower than the tx100--if not then the auto iris isnt on. The black level has been measured very low using 0 ire window on the sony--somewhere near the better dlps and definitely better than the tx100.

As for the 51 v. 12k comparison--I have little doubt the 12k is a better machine. I just don't see how it could be brighter in high cr mode than the sony in auto iris mode.

Can someone with a 51 detail how to put it in auto iris mode so those seeing demo 51's can verify the auto iris is set up correctly.

did you guys see the hs51 on ebay yet? some guy wants $4400! lol! what does he think it is, a tickle me elmo?

Tx100 can reach a low black level with a totally closed iris but then the lumens is only about 250 ANSI lumens. In that case the tx100 would not have a bright picture. The cr of tx100 is less than 1000:1 without a color filter at d65.

A functioning hs51 has at least 400 ANSI lumens when calibrated at d65. With that calibration the cr is 4000:1.

Fishhooks
Considering how different your report is I consider the possibility that the iris was put in the on position and not the auto position. Hs51 without the autp-iris is almost the samw as a tx100 minus VB and with 12 bit processing. I will give you the point about hs51 vs a good dlp but with your comment on tx100 vs hs50 I reamain skeptical. Could you find out if you did see it in auto mode. Also as someone has said without perfect light control a contrast advantage is lost, that is true for any high contrast projector.

As said earlier, I'm quite unfamiliar with this TX100 and I'll try to do this test again and verify the HS50 iris settings, though I'm fairly sure the guy said it was on Auto.

I'm just calling it as I saw it at the time and again to go back to a term someone used here before, the Hitachi definitely had more 'punch' better flesh-tones, similar blacks with more shadow detail 'but' with VB which could be seen close to the screen, which the Sony was free of.

I guess it is also in the eyes of the beholder, but another point I think I made previously: The HS50 in Australia is almost exactly A$2000 more expensive than the TX100 AND Panasonic AE700. This is US$1564 @ todays rates.
How many average to reasonably experienced quality viewers are going to see this 2 grand difference.

It's always been a funny point noted in the TV Industry when an employee involved in technical production goes to homes and looks at the way that
some of the public have their TV's adjusted, the question is "why do we bother to spend so much time with lighting and critical camera matching"?
I think though with projectors, the public users are somewhat more discerning, but are they as discerning to the extent of some of the fine points we hash over here day in and day out?

Throughout this AVS Forum. I try to base my comments on what I feel the above average quality expectant viewer would be happy with in their purchase of a projector, taking it out of the box, mounting it and pointing it toward a good quality screen. Then perhaps making a few adjustments in the user menu to suit their situation.

I guess I could liken the situation I'm describing to "Contrast Ratio"

Would somebody care to take a guess at what the ratio is of people like us on AVS discussing the ins and outs of projectors almost at times to the point of open warfare, to those who buy a projector, take it home and set it up, then want to just sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

Even though I'm in the 'former' category, I try at all times in mind to sit in the theater of the 'latter'

(I've probably said something like this before Noah)

Fishhooks
Have we gone through what you watched when tx100 was compared with hs50? If it was bright hdtv material the difference might not have been so noticeable and the tx100 should have more punch with an open iris. The hs50 can have an open iris too. The iris positions are auto, on and off.

Next time compare with dark material with hs50 in auto position. There might be faulty variation between hs50 units as two separate reviews differ in lumens by a factor of two!

Mattias, in regards to the CC filtration ...

I do not think anyone as of this point in time has even attempted to calibrate their HS50/51 with CC filtration and the use of appropriate measurement equipment. I do not think WSR or even P.C. (hate to mention them at all). I know that with the extremely off-axis condition the HS51 reached +5800:1 raw On/Off CR and about 3800:1 calibrated to D65.

Curious as to what your guess is this puppy may achieve if its actually calibrated and CC for maximu CR at D65. Maybe Darin will do this, hehe. If we are lucky, maybe Cine4home will acquire an HS50 and rip into it.

Um, everyone else that has seen the HS51 says, that
A. The viewable contrast ratio is DLP like or better than some
B. The HS51 has near perfect color reproduction
C. The HS51 has low to no FPN, VB or other distracting LCD deficiencies
D. The SDE is not nearly as noticeable as the HS20 which is pretty good. Panasonic has the corner on that market
E. WIth auto iris off the HS51 looks to have the SAME visible CR as the Z3 and in effect the TX100
F. In High Lamp mode the CR suffers a bit but the PJ has a noticeably brighter image than any of the other new LCD's and with more punch
G. The major problem is 720p on Component and HDMI which results in black borders over the edges of the picture

Just mentioning this to put things into perspective. A Lot of new readers of this thread will read just the end and not get what everyone else has said including professional reviewers that know their projectors.

Good synopsis my fried. We need that more frequently in long threads.

Brian

I was just thinking this morning that on these 'official' threads this kind of synopsis should be in the very first post, updated almost daily. This would benefit those coming to the thread for the first time, and also help reduce or eliminate the repetition in question asking.

No such dice, though, and I'm not about to go through +1500 posts if I were a newbie. :)

Still, some of us cannot take anything at face value and will always try to get the most for their money. Never meant to suggest the HS51 needed any tweaking, and for anyone buying for the first time should even give tweaking a second thought.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 'ripping' of a HS50 would be Ekkeharts next project...

Hope he has the cajones to do so. <--trying to get him to do it asap.

Originally posted by Ohlson
Utopia
WSR reported 400-500 lumens for hs51 when calibrated. Projector-central reported 240 ANSI lumen and later said something might have been wrong with the bulb. Twice the lumen's might give the projector a totally different look.
In your viewing has light control been good to perfect?
The unconfirmed rumor from one member about a hs51 recall of some units in a reply mentioned lamp issues. We will have to wait and see.

My overview is that a working hs51 is a great projector. If it is not working (some lamp issue) and lumen's are low is not indicative of the true potential. There are better projectors but they cost more.

Well I remember the hysteria over the lamp issue for the HS-10 (which by the way only happened to me once in 2yrs other than that the HS-10 has worked flawlessly) and I certainly don't want to contribute to starting any alleged lamp problems or recall rumors but this projector is being sent back because of low lumen output and the Dealer who has a CRT said the Sony is dimmer than that.

In my room light control is good but the room is not black. However at the dealers its black with no light and the picture was still dull and dim. I imagine if it had twice the lumens it would come alive because even with the picture being dim and dull it had great blacks and increased depth giving the picture more of a 3D feel.

The Dealer will be getting a new one I hope before Christmas (not) and aI will update my viewing conclusions.

I was just thinking this morning that on these 'official' threads this kind of synopsis should be in the very first post, updated almost daily. This would benefit those coming to the thread for the first time, and also help reduce or eliminate the repetition in question asking.

I don't tend to look at the first post. If possible, I think a floating post would be a better idea (kind of like an "ad" that will show up at the top of any page a bit seperated and edited by a "moderator")

drpp
In a thread at the german MHK forum it has been posted that Ekkehardt will start on hs50 around the 10th of December.

On a side note ... for those that already have their HS51's can you relate if you have a dusty environment and after 10, 20, or 50 hours how much dust is getting collected on the filter's intake?

If I look closely at the Operating Manual, there are actually two locations where air enters the chassis, but are both of these locations channel the air to the one location that has a filter? Pp. 62 & 63 in the manual show these locations.

I'm wondering if people who are reporting the HS51 as dull and flat are taking the time to calibrate it? Last night I started a movie and wondered why the image looked kind of dull and washed out. I discovered that I had accidentally switched it from Cinema mode (which I had calibrated) to Standard mode (factory defaults). There was quite a difference switching back and forth.

When I calibrated the Cinema mode using Avia, I had to move the Brightness from the default of 50 down to 38 to get good blacks and rich colors. I moved Contrast from the default of 80 down to 60 as suggested by WSR.

I have a small (72" wide) 1.5 gain screen and totally dark room, which may also make a difference. But to me the image looks very good. I have seen DLP at the Home Entertainment Show and some dealers, but have never spent significant time with it so can't comment on how it compares. So far I find the HS51 much better than my old 7" CRT. It is brigher, sharper, more detailed and has better color. The only things the CRT did better was blacks and no screen door. Sitting 1.5 screen widths back, I can see the HS51 screen door on very bright images but a very slight defocus eliminates it.

The HS51 is not the brightest so may not be suitable for very large screens or rooms with light. If people are evaluating it under those conditions, they might not like the result and it probably would not compare to a bright DLP.

Schefdog,

Did you say yet what gain your screen is and breand. If not, can you tell me? Also, what dvd player and how is it connected to the sony. I await my hs51 and was planning a 106" diagonal, 1.3 gain screen in a totally dark room with dark walls. Will this screen be too big?

Thanks,

Larry

Excerpt from the Sony DVP-NS975v thread.

Color accuracy via 720p/1080i (green depression):
1080i: Depends on display. If the display allows for SD/HD matrix selection then choose SD and it's OK. If the HD matrix is fixed at HD for 720p and 1080i then significant green depression -20% on Avia decoder check. Some green shades noted in near black areas. Might be material dependant. It is noted that if one sets the player's "TINT" to -3 and reduce the "COLOR" to -2, the most apparent visual affects of the HD/SD color conversion issue can be reduced somewhat.

Does this HS51 projector allow for SD/HD matrix selection on 720p or 1080i via hdmi?

Larry,
How far away are you going to sit? I sit 14 feet away and have a 96" Firehawk. I wish I went with 92". The screendoor is noticeable at times from 14ft away even with a slight defocus. The smaller the screen the more punch to the image. Id suggest 100" at a max for the hs51.
Andy

Originally posted by bcolon
Actually 720P over component has blanking.

480I and 480P over component are fine.

This is my first home theater projector and I am completely impressed. By the way I purchased the Chief HS20 mount and it fit perfectly.

Would that be the RPA-2131 model?

Originally posted by Fishhooks
As said earlier, I'm quite unfamiliar with this TX100 and I'll try to do this test again and verify the HS50 iris settings, though I'm fairly sure the guy said it was on Auto.

I'm just calling it as I saw it at the time and again to go back to a term someone used here before, the Hitachi definitely had more 'punch' better flesh-tones, similar blacks with more shadow detail
If there were any dark scenes then this definitely sounds like an HS51 that either wasn't in Auto mode, wasn't working correctly in that mode, or was miscalibrated for the source.

--Darin

Originally posted by larsil
Did you say yet what gain your screen is and breand. If not, can you tell me? Also, what dvd player and how is it connected to the sony. I await my hs51 and was planning a 106" diagonal, 1.3 gain screen in a totally dark room with dark walls. Will this screen be too big?
My screen is an old Vutec 1.5 gain white screen, I don't remember the material name. It was a good choice for a 7" CRT at the time I bought it, but there have been a lot of advances in screens for digital projectors since then. I plan to investigate upgrading the screen someday, but the PJ has blown the budget for a while. I'm content with it for now.

Originally posted by ay221
Does this HS51 projector allow for SD/HD matrix selection on 720p or 1080i via hdmi?
I haven't seen any setting with a name like that in the manual or user menus.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I haven't seen any setting with a name like that in the manual or user menus.

The only thing I see close that could be it is the Color system selection it mentions ntsc and pal, but no mention of atsc. Or maybe the input a signal selection.

Andy,

I will be sitting 17 feet from the screen. So you are saying 100" diagonal is optimum?

And thanks schefdog for the info.

LArry

Originally posted by jschefdog
I'm wondering if people who are reporting the HS51 as dull and flat are taking the time to calibrate it? Last night I started a movie and wondered why the image looked kind of dull and washed out. I discovered that I had accidentally switched it from Cinema mode (which I had calibrated) to Standard mode (factory defaults). There was quite a difference switching back and forth.

When I calibrated the Cinema mode using Avia, I had to move the Brightness from the default of 50 down to 38 to get good blacks and rich colors. I moved Contrast from the default of 80 down to 60 as suggested by WSR.

I have a small (72" wide) 1.5 gain screen and totally dark room, which may also make a difference. But to me the image looks very good. I have seen DLP at the Home Entertainment Show and some dealers, but have never spent significant time with it so can't comment on how it compares. So far I find the HS51 much better than my old 7" CRT. It is brigher, sharper, more detailed and has better color. The only things the CRT did better was blacks and no screen door. Sitting 1.5 screen widths back, I can see the HS51 screen door on very bright images but a very slight defocus eliminates it.

The HS51 is not the brightest so may not be suitable for very large screens or rooms with light. If people are evaluating it under those conditions, they might not like the result and it probably would not compare to a bright DLP.

The real question is are some of the 51s defective regarding light output.

The bigger you go on any screen especially with a lumen challenged projector the less bright the image will look. What type of screen are you going to use? Do you prefer more contrast or a brighter picture? Screendoor could also be an issue as it is for me at 96" 14 feet away.

Got my hands on an HS51 and checked it out tonight. I only watched DVDs on the cheap Toshiba upconverting DVD player, sending the PJ a 1080i signal over HDMI. Watched it on a Stewart screen with 1.3 gain, 84" wide (100 diagonal). I briefly calibrated it with AVIA, but out of the box the settings seemed good. My initial impressions:


Contrast: I would classify this as good, but not mindblowing the way some people seem to experience it. I tried this with the Iris in the on, off and auto positions. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Light output: Definitely a bit on the dim side. Not unliveable, but I did wish for a bit more light quite a few times, even on the dynamic (brightest) setting. My room is totally light controlled, FYI.

Color: Colors were good. I didn't need to alter any settings while calibrating.

Fan Noise: Not noticeable.

Sharpness: Delivers a crips image. Perhaps a bit too crisp (see SDE below)

FPN: It's present but not notceable unless you look for it.

VB: I didn't notice any VB except now and then on a few menu screens. I'm not even sure what I saw was VB, to be honest.

SDE: This was the biggest drawback for me. At a 10' seating distance the pixel structure was readily apparent to me. After I defocused the picture slightly, it didn't bother me as much, but I still noticed it, especially in white areas (i.e. snowy scenes). At the same seating distance my girlfriend was unable to detect screen door, however.

Motion: Not readily apparent, but I did notice a bit from time to time. Nothing that would bother me.

FYI, I currently watch movies on a Barco 808 CRT and also recently evaluated a BenQ8700+ in my house. If I had to rank them, I'd say the CRT picture is best, the 8700 picture is pretty damn close to the CRT and the HS51 is reasonably close to the 8700, except for the screendoor. OTOH, I think the blacks on the HS51 were probably better than those of the 8700. Overall, though, the HS51 lacked the smooth, filmlike experience (for me) that I felt both the CRT and 8700 delivered.

I'm going to keep evaluating the HS51, of course. These are just my first impressions. I'm especially curious about the Iris feature and if I'm using it correctly.

(See posts later in this thread for some follow up thoughts.)

I'm wondering if people who are reporting the HS51 as dull and flat are taking the time to calibrate it? Last night I started a movie and wondered why the image looked kind of dull and washed out. I discovered that I had accidentally switched it from Cinema mode (which I had calibrated) to Standard mode (factory defaults). There was quite a difference switching back and forth.

When I calibrated the Cinema mode using Avia, I had to move the Brightness from the default of 50 down to 38 to get good blacks and rich colors. I moved Contrast from the default of 80 down to 60 as suggested by WSR

originally posted by jschefdog:
_______________________________________________________


Very good info and hopefully may provide a clue. I think the problem some of you may be observing with my posts lays in the fact that I'm attempting to take the "middle ground" with these issues.
This forum by way of it's nature most likely attracts enthusiasts, who, when they take a box home, feel that they must fiddle with a projector to a degree to satisfy their curiousity.

Perhaps also after near 40 years playing professionally with these products I'm not too interested in 'getting inside' the beast and threatening it to behave or be put out to pasture.

So without rambling on too much, I am definitely on the side of the vast majority of the world who want a great picture out of their purchase and don't own test and calibration gear or can't afford to have 'Mr. Calibrator' knocking at their door. (Anyone like to take a guess at the ratio)

Thus, if I'm in the minority here I cannot apologize, as I so-far have been lucky enough to choose projectors that give great results more or less straight out of their packing carton with a just few normal user adjustments to tweak.
Take a look at the current Optoma / Mitsubishi threads above this level. The purchasers of these models (professional or amateur) have good reason to be p----d off. (apart from Tom of course)

Hence my conclusion from my previous post yesterday:

_______________________________________________________
Would somebody care to take a guess at what the ratio is of people like us on AVS discussing the ins and outs of projectors almost at times to the point of open warfare, to those who buy a projector, take it home and set it up, then want to just sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

Even though I'm in the 'former' category, I try at all times in mind to sit in the theater of the 'latter'
_______________________________________________________

Sorry if I'm out of calibration with the majority here.

Craige17, there isn't much to get in terms of the iris and setting it to perform for the most contrast. Place it on Auto and view it in Low lamp mode. Calibrate again for these two settings and let us know.

BTW, what happens if that DVD player outputs 720P on the HDMI? Is it like everyone else has reported?

Yeah, 720P over HDMI has the black masking/overscan problem. Very annoying.

Thx for the tip on teh iris stuff. I'll make sure to set it to low lamp and auto, then recalibrate. Though I worry low lamp will be too dim to watch.

Craige17, have a PC or laptop handy? Does it have DVI out? Yeah, I am trying to live life vicariously by having others do my bidding before my projector arrives. :)

Sorry, no PC or laptop with DVI out.

Andy,

I was considering the Brilliant White, 1.4 gain model from Carada. Maybe 100" diagonal is big enough. It will be in a room 20 feet long by 10 feet wide and 7 foor high ceilings.

By the way, I noticed you are in CT. So am I. Did you buy locally? If you are up for it, i would love to see your sony set up. This is my first projector and it would be great to get a demo of how you are setting the sony up. Let me know.

Thanks,

Larry

Originally posted by craige17
Yeah, 720P over HDMI has the black masking/overscan problem. Very annoying.

Thx for the tip on teh iris stuff. I'll make sure to set it to low lamp and auto, then recalibrate. Though I worry low lamp will be too dim to watch.

sitting 10' from a 7' wide screen is proberbly too close for a LCD pj.

High lamp or low lamp should not matter as far as pq, just make sure you use the IRIS-auto setting!

What other settings are you using?
How would you compare the brightness to the BenQ 8700+/ To the your Barco CRT?
It might be a good idea to check out the WSR review at widescreenreview.com for other setup tips.

Thanks for the review!

Fishhooks

I think people here are very interested in early reviews of the pj. We just want to make sure that it is seen in it's best light. It is clear from the reviews, and Sony's own numbers that if the pj does not have IRIS-auto it is very similar to the other current generation LCD.

Thanks Houst.

Quick question on your response re "if the Auto-Iris is not selected"

Thus, if 'without' this feature engaged (Auto-Iris) the HS50 looks similar to other current generation LSD's..........Does the Auto Iris "ON" make this machine good value at A$2000 (US$1564) more than say a Panasonic AE700?

(This $ value may of course not relate to other areas)

Originally posted by Fishhooks
Thanks Houst.

Quick question on your response re "if the Auto-Iris is not selected"

Thus, if 'without' this feature engaged (Auto-Iris) the HS50 looks similar to other current generation LSD's..........Does the Auto Iris "ON" make this machine good value at A$2000 (US$1564) more than say a Panasonic AE700?

(This $ value may of course not relate to other areas)

In the USA the difference between the Panasonic and Sony are half what you are mentioned. Is this the LSD talking or are you just in Australia? :D

Guess the LSD clicked in for a while!

So with the price difference not so much, you would still put the Sony ahead in better value, as long as the Auto - Iris is ON?

Ok I finally got my Econ paper written, so I can take a little time out and give my impressions of the HS51.

Background: I got projector on Friday, took only 2 days to get to me via UPS. My setup is a 7'5" ceiling with the projector about 9" from the ceiling. My screen is a 120" diagonal Dalite HCCV screen about 6" from the ceiling at the top. Currently, due to cable length issues, the projector is mounted 14' back from the screen. Eventually I'll push this back to 17'. My dvd player is a Pioneer DV-45a. My preamp/processor is the Krell Showcase which I’m using for component video switching. My HDTV receiver is the Time Warner Cable set top box. All video cables are Belden cables from BlueJeansCables.

Projector Setup: I calibrated the projector using Avia. I didn't see any need to change the colors, they looked spot on from the factory. Contrast was 70, Brightness was 40, Color 47, Hue 52 and Sharpness was 50. Everything else was left as Cinema mode defaults.

720p Issue: I don’t have an HDMI playback device, so I couldn’t check on that. However, I am using component. And strangely enough, the border problem people noticed with HDMI 720p is present on the component video input. Watching ESPN HD Football tonight I noticed this out of my TWC HD receiver. When I disabled 720p and forced 1080i, the image went full widescreen. Very interesting.

Contrast: The black level on this projector is amazing. However, understand that I’m upgrading from a Studio Experience 1HD and have only spent a little time evaluating a Sharp Z10000. I would rate the contrast better than both, obviously. Once again, because of the higher quality of this projector, the sources and material you choose to view have a lot to do with your perceptions. Pre-digital movies (ie stuff over than 7 years or so) start showing various problems because of the resolution of the projector. Stuff like the last couple Star Wars (barf), The Fifth Element, and CGI animated movies look stunning. The image is so three dimensional it nearly gave me tears of joy.

Now a warning about “dark movies”. The first temptation I had when I got this projector was to pull out every dark movie I had to see what it would look like. Bad idea. To be honest, in order to make a proper evaluation one should acclimatize to their projector before making such evaluations. Perceptions is one thing, evaluations are another. After watching some more “bright” movies, I got a better understanding for the picture from this projector. Then when I watched dark movies I had a better grasp for what to expect.

Color: The color looks outstanding to me. Very vivid and delineated. Perhaps the colors aren’t as intense as I might have expected, but I think that is more due to another factor that I’ll discuss next.

Light Output: All things being fair, this is just too big a screen for this projector to drive. While I think the light out put in Cinema mode with auto iris is about the same as my 1HD in low lamp mode, the increased contrast makes the color vibrancy come out a bit duller than I would like. When I get more money, I will definitely look to replacing the screen with something smaller, perhaps in the 100” range. When I size the image down to something that would look like a 100” screen, the brightness seems far more appropriate. (know anyone that wants a 1hd and a 120” screen?)

Screen Door Effect: As I said before, 9’ wide screen from a 17’ distance. There is no screen door at this distance. Even if there were, I wouldn’t complain. <rant>People that complain about the screen door effect that are at least 1 screen widths distance away need their heads checked. Having gone back to using a 53” RPTV for the last month, SDE is far less an issue than viewing the scan lines on a tube tv. I haven’t seen a tube TV yet that looked “smoother” than even my 1HD. Perhaps being a computer professional, I am used to pixels and they just don’t register with me anymore. Heck, I can see the pixels on this 1280x720 laptop, so I know it isn’t my visual acuity. So unless you can afford a film projector and high quality film sources, quite bitching about the SDE on 720p projectors! </rant>

Vertical Banding: Tried viewing several big, solid color scenes and never noticed it anywhere in any form.

Fan Noise: What fan noise? This thing is as close to silent as I could hope for. Yeah, you could hear it if you were really trying. But even in quiet movies, it is totally transparent. If I’m listening critically to DVD-Audio material, I’d hear it then, but only because I’m only using my ears ;)

HDTV: Wow. Let this sink in a bit, Wow. I thought my 1HD did a very good job of displaying HDTV signals. But I now see where the extra resolution comes it. Not from an SDE standpoint but rather for increased detail in the images. Watching HD programs like American Chopper, the painted metal and chrome looks so damned realistic it’s amazing. The Discovery HD shows with pictures from the Amazon rain forests look so realistic that it’s like looking through a really clean window.

Value: It’s hard saying that a $3500 item is a bargain, but at the same price as the Krell pre/pro it does for my video system that the Krell does for my audio system. It takes it to a level that puts me in seventh heaven. How does this projector compare to a Marantz S3, a Sony Qualia, a Sharp Z12000? I don’t know, couldn’t tell you as I don’t have them for experience. However from what I have seen and what others have said you could probably get those three to have a better picture than the HS51. However, is that difference worth $5000 or more extra it would cost you?

The Law of Diminishing Returns says that the amount of money you’d spend to upgrade from the HS51 just isn’t work the money. Think about all the other equipment that $5000 could buy and how much more “bang for the buck” that equipment would provide than the other projectors by themselves. Now am I saying the HS51 is “THE” projector, no. “THE” projector would be the HS51 combined with the PLV-70 light canon. But we all know that isn’t going to happen! So if the HS51 is in your price range, it’s a very worthy consideration.

Originally posted by Fishhooks
So with the price difference not so much, you would still put the Sony ahead in better value, as long as the Auto - Iris is ON?
Based on what I saw at CEDIA and reports, I figured that without the auto iris the HS50/51 was basically in the Z2 to TX100 class (close to same SDE and CR with slightly different features). It is the auto iris that is the magic. I personally thought the HS51 looked enough better than the AE700 to my eyes that I would pay the extra, but a "Is x worth $y amount more than z" is always a personal decision. At US$1564 I would be tempted to get the AE700 and use the money for an upgrade later (or something else) though. That much difference might pay for an upgrade to an AE900 next year (after selling the AE700).

EDIT: Looks like I wasn't clear on the US$1564. That was the price difference between the HS51 and AE700 that Fishhooks posted, not the price of an AE700.

--Darin

Good logic, Darin (with or without LSD)

from dltf90:

720p Issue: I don�t have an HDMI playback device, so I couldn�t check on that. However, I am using component. And strangely enough, the border problem people noticed with HDMI 720p is present on the component video input. Watching ESPN HD Football tonight I noticed this out of my TWC HD receiver. When I disabled 720p and forced 1080i, the image went full widescreen. Very interesting.
_________________________________

As I didn't consider the above situation a huge issue, I did not mention it in my previous posts, however I too noticed this border problem compared to the poor relation TX100 test.
With PAL DVD's playing into the HS50 'Component' input and TX100 simultaneously there was noticeably more image displayed on the Hitachi, but not enough to cause any drama with me. Going by previous posts over the last few days though, this is an issue with some of you.
The salesman also alerted me to this as it had also caught his attention previously.

dltf90

great review!

Originally posted by Fishhooks
Thanks Houst.

Quick question on your response re "if the Auto-Iris is not selected"

Thus, if 'without' this feature engaged (Auto-Iris) the HS50 looks similar to other current generation LSD's..........Does the Auto Iris "ON" make this machine good value at A$2000 (US$1564) more than say a Panasonic AE700?

(This $ value may of course not relate to other areas)
I think it depends on pj you are upgrading from, and what your viewing habits are. For the average consumer who is looking for a "bigger" big screen Tv to watch sports, and standard movies, I would recommend the lower priced units, shelf mounted, and a High power screen. If you are into the si-fi/horror/action adventure camp and want the best "videophile" bang for the buck, then the HS51 may be worth 3 or more times the price difference!

Some follow-up observations:

During my initial test I flipped around a lot between dynamic, standard and cinema modes. Tonight I spent some time viewing each over an extended period time and have some further results to report:

Dynamic: In a light controlled room, you shouldn't use this (or at least I shouldn't). It basically just washes out the picture. I see SDE constantly in this mode. It's really only meant for rooms that aren't light controlled. It gives the illusion of being satisfying on a brightness level, but so much detail is lost, it's not worth it (imo).

Standard: A balance between being really bright and getting a great contrast ratio. Overall not very satisfactory. SDE becomes less obvious, but blacks are still on the grey side. The PJ performs like other LCDs in its price class (or lower) in this mode.

Cinema: This is the famed low brightness, auto iris mode. Upon extended viewing the blacks really are great. As an added benefit, I don't notice SDE at all in this mode, even in bright scenes. The downside is that this mode gives you the dimmest picture. Even in my light controlled room I was continually wanting a bit more brightness. But the picture becomes much more film like in this mode.

Tomorrow I'm going to recalibrate the projector in Cinema mode to see if I can get a little more brightness out of the picture without ruining the lovely CR. I do think if this picture was just a little brighter I'd be extremely happy with the PJ instead of just pretty happy. Overall, though, I don't think many people would be unhappy with this PJ.

Side note to dltf90 and your screendoor rant. I agree with you, to a point. There is absolutely SDE on my computer monitor and sometimes on my TV that does not bother me. But when SDE is prominent enough to become distracting, that's where I start complaining, which is where I am with the HS51. On cinema mode I can see the SDE if I look, but it doesn't take my attention away from the movie. On Standard mode, especially in white patches, it's quite intrusive (to me) and takes me right out of the movie.

Later this week I'm going to A/B the HS51 with my Barco 808 and see what it looks like then.

I've mentioned on here previously that I thought the HS51 with a High Power screen and the projector low (either table, shelf, or stand) would be a popular combination. With the comments about the overall brightness I am believing this more and more. Especially if some of us add a color filter.

People should be aware that brighter images tend to bring out more details, and this includes SDE. In my experience I don't think it really matters whether the ft-lamberts come from the projector or the screen as far as this goes.

--Darin

Originally posted by craige17
Some follow-up observations:

Cinema: This is the famed low brightness, auto iris mode. Upon extended viewing the blacks really are great. As an added benefit, I don't notice SDE at all in this mode, even in bright scenes. The downside is that this mode gives you the dimmest picture. Even in my light controlled room I was continually wanting a bit more brightness. But the picture becomes much more film like in this mode.



Just so I am not misunderstanding: from the HS51 Manual

Picture->PictureMode->Cinema is your picture mode selection

You are also doing
Picture->Adjust Picture->Cinema Black Pro->Advanced Iris->Auto to engage the auto iris?

does
Picture->Adjust Picture->Cinema Black Pro->Lamp Control->High increase light output enough so that you are satisfied?

thanks

Originally posted by darinp2
I've mentioned on here previously that I thought the HS51 with a High Power screen and the projector low (either table, shelf, or stand) would be a popular combination. With the comments about the overall brightness I am believing this more and more. Especially if some of us add a color filter.

People should be aware that brighter images tend to bring out more details, and this includes SDE. In my experience I don't think it really matters whether the ft-lamberts come from the projector or the screen as far as this goes.

--Darin

Where do you think I got the idea? :)

Later this week I'm going to A/B the HS51 with my Barco 808 and see what it looks like then.

Me being a guy with a Barco 808 and who is considering making the jump to digital i will be anxiously awaiting your comments.

Brian

If you are into the si-fi/horror/action adventure camp and want the best "videophile" bang for the buck, then the HS51 may be worth 3 or more times the price difference!

HoustonHoyaFan

____________________________________________________


That's a pretty big statement money wise, but just wondering why you single out those particular categories.

Just an observation but I find generally those type of movies whilst well produced and these days costing a lot to make, sometimes mainly in post production with much CGI, may not always demonstrate actual depth of quality. Perhaps excepting the projectors ability to recover quickly from significant fast video level changes and show heavily saturated colours.

Yes, the flashy effects (Hellboy / Riddick to name a couple) certainly look spectacular, but do they really bring out the depth of quality to show off a really good display device?

Nothing (in my mind) demonstrates projector quality better than the work of a D.O.P. using his professional talent to translate beautiful scenery and flesh-tones to the screen. "Charlotte Grey" to name just one, even if the movie itself is not your 'cup of tea'
Colour TV Cameras over the years, have often been somewhat rated on their ability to deliver the most natural and pleasing flesh-tones. On the other side of the fence film stock and processing can make a world of a difference to the impact of a movie on the audience. I think the ability of a projector to accurately duplicate this are important and worthy attributes.

Then again all of this comes back to individual taste.

Some maybe use a projector mainly for Video Games!

Originally posted by craige17
Some follow-up observations:

During my initial test I flipped around a lot between dynamic, standard and cinema modes. Tonight I spent some time viewing each over an extended period time and have some further results to report:

Dynamic: In a light controlled room, you shouldn't use this (or at least I shouldn't). It basically just washes out the picture. I see SDE constantly in this mode. It's really only meant for rooms that aren't light controlled. It gives the illusion of being satisfying on a brightness level, but so much detail is lost, it's not worth it (imo).

Standard: A balance between being really bright and getting a great contrast ratio. Overall not very satisfactory. SDE becomes less obvious, but blacks are still on the grey side. The PJ performs like other LCDs in its price class (or lower) in this mode.

Cinema: This is the famed low brightness, auto iris mode. Upon extended viewing the blacks really are great. As an added benefit, I don't notice SDE at all in this mode, even in bright scenes. The downside is that this mode gives you the dimmest picture. Even in my light controlled room I was continually wanting a bit more brightness. But the picture becomes much more film like in this mode.

Tomorrow I'm going to recalibrate the projector in Cinema mode to see if I can get a little more brightness out of the picture without ruining the lovely CR. I do think if this picture was just a little brighter I'd be extremely happy with the PJ instead of just pretty happy. Overall, though, I don't think many people would be unhappy with this PJ.

Side note to dltf90 and your screendoor rant. I agree with you, to a point. There is absolutely SDE on my computer monitor and sometimes on my TV that does not bother me. But when SDE is prominent enough to become distracting, that's where I start complaining, which is where I am with the HS51. On cinema mode I can see the SDE if I look, but it doesn't take my attention away from the movie. On Standard mode, especially in white patches, it's quite intrusive (to me) and takes me right out of the movie.

Later this week I'm going to A/B the HS51 with my Barco 808 and see what it looks like then.

GREAT REVIEWS craige17 and dltf90, i am deciding between the sony and the Z3,700. what i am looking for in a picture i primarily punch and "depth" and people are reporting that with the auto iris and low lamp the picture on the sony lacks a little punch so i wonder for my preferences and also i have a room with light walls and white ceiling and a cheap screen:p

whats your opinion should i pay the extra cash for the sony or should i go with the Z3, 700 considering punch and depth and also my room settings

BTW this will be my first PJ:D

THANKS IN ADVANCE

whats your opinion should i pay the extra cash for the sony or should i go with the Z3, 700 considering punch and depth and also my room settings

I'm not saying the Sony completely lacks punch. However, I am saying screen size and screen make-up do matter. The 120" HCCV screen I have is too big to drive. It was too big for the 1HD at times. I got this screen because I thought 2 years ago I'd be upgrading to a Sanyo PLV-70 light cannon. That now isn't the case. I shrank my zoom on the Sony to get the equivalent of a 100" screen and I thought the brightness was much better. It didn't leave me with the "dim" feeling that the 120" screen does. I may try out different screen fabrics other than HCCV to see which provides the best combination. The Silverstar is interesting, but not at 4x the cost of a comparable HCCV!

dltf90,

Thanks for the great review. what do you think of the Carada Brilliant White? (1.4gain) This is the screen I am thinking of purchasing for the sony. (100" diag) The hs51 will be my first projector. With a 1,4 gain screen, will I be better to put the projector on a stand? I was thinking of buildng a black box with a shelf inside to sit the projector on. If I do this, how high in relationship to the bottom of the screen does the sony need to sit?

Thanks!

Larry

Originally posted by usabrian
Me being a guy with a Barco 808 and who is considering making the jump to digital i will be anxiously awaiting your comments.

Brian

If you value the black level of your CRT then you will likely be disappointed with the HS51. I received my unit on Friday and did some extended viewing over the weekend. I'm a CRT person so don't expect anything on FPN or VB since I have not spent alot of time with any previous LCD projectors.

My setup is currently a 96" wide blackout screen (awaiting my Ultramatte 150 material) using a DirecTV HD receiver and a HTPC. For comparison I have a Sony G70 with pretty worn tubes that had about a 30 minute setup. For reference I would not use the G70 in its current state as my main projector. The tubes would be replaced and I would do a full setup.

My initial impressions of the HS51 were quite positive. For most material it throws a nice detailed picture but it lacks depth compared to the CRT. It was puzzling. On some moderately dark stuff the picture would look really nice with some depth but as soon as the picture changed to a brighter scene all the depth was lost and the picture looked more 2 dimensional. I can only assume that this is a function of the actual contrast being something like 1,300:1. I watched alot of material this weekend ranging from Castaway to HD football and some Cedia stuff on HDNet and always found myself gravitating back to the G70.

Black level...not close to a CRT but probably as good as some of the higher end digitals. It failed the shadow puppet test and the Castaway crash scene. Interestingly the black level got worse after I covered the screen wall with black velvet. Don't read anything into this since the room is very FP unfriendly with beige walls, a white ceiling, and light carpet. Just thought Darin would be pleased :) Back on topic, the elevated black level killed the immersion for me but again realize I am coming from a high end CRT. Darin said in another thread somewhere that he would be curious how the cursor would look at the beginning of the Matrix. While I don't remember the exact question I don't think the ANSI contrast has any effect here. The black level is elevated enough that the entire screen is still lit up and the flashing cursor didn't have much of an effect.

Brightness...On auto iris this projector is indeed on the dim side. In fact my G70 with worn tubes was brighter. It was nice to be able to increase the brightness by selecting the Dynamic mode but then you lost all the benefits of the auto iris. I would definately recommend a white screen vs a grey screen for this projector.

Other than the elevated black level I could not find much wrong with this projector. SDE was not objectionable from my viewing distance of about 1.8x. I didn't notice any of the other LCD issues like VB or FPN but then again I don't know what to look for and would prefer not to know. Unfortunately the lack of depth and elevated black level will keep me in the CRT camp for awhile longer and I'll keep the G70 and retube it. Don't get me wrong...If this was my first projector or I was upgrading from another digital I would be very happy with the HS51 and would probably keep it.

HoustonHoyaFan, I'll have to check that out and see. I think hitting the Cinema button automatically kicks it into low light, auto iris mode. I'll see if "Picture->Adjust Picture->Cinema Black Pro->Lamp Control->High" will do anything useful.

ZoomAir, I can't really give you an opinion because I have not seen the Z3 or the AE700. FYI, my screenwall is painted black and the side walls a very dark purple, and although I have a white ceiling, I have black felt on the ceiling tiles over the screen and extending into the room about 4 feet, and there is no light coming into the room other than from the PJ, so it's overall a pretty dark room I've got going on.

GScott, I'll have to A/B with my Barco (which was ISF calibrated) to check out the blacks, but on Cinema mode the black levels of the HS51 didn't bother me too much. It was really the dimness of the screen that bugged me.

If you are into the si-fi/horror/action adventure camp and want the best "videophile" bang for the buck, then the HS51 may be worth 3 or more times the price difference!

HoustonHoyaFan

____________________________________________________


That's a pretty big statement money wise, but just wondering why you single out those particular categories.


I think the point is that they tend to be darker and have more black, a sporting event needs a brighter projector, a star scene needs one with better blacks.

GScott
Are you saying selecting Dynamic mode turns the IRIS-off if it was on or auto?

craige17
are you saying selecting Cinema mode turns the IRIS-auto, if it was off or on?

GScott,
Thanks for that review. Unlike some, screen door does really bother me and I often sit at under 1.5X screen width and this has been the only thing to hold me back from moving to digital thus far. My Barco throws a wonderful picture but I am bored in this hobby. I was hoping this Sony might be the answer but I am worried that it may not be with this in mind. It sounds like it might be too sharp. As a crt owner, what were your impressions of the Benq 8700?

Thanks, Brian

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
[B]GScott
Are you saying selecting Dynamic mode turns the IRIS-off if it was on or auto?



Yes. All 3 modes have presets for the IRIS position. Cinema sets it to auto, Standard sets it to on, and Dynamic sets it to off. There are other settings stored in these different modes as well such as contrast and brightness settings.

Originally posted by usabrian
As a crt owner, what were your impressions of the Benq 8700?

Thanks, Brian

I have never seen the Benq. The closest I have come is the Runco 710. I have spent a total of about 45 minutes at different times watching the Runco and from what I remember the picture on the HS51 was better. Keep in mind I just watched what was playing on the Runco and never demo'd any of my own stuff so I never really go to see how the black level was.

Also, when I am referring to the HS51 black level I am talking about the absence of light in scene transitions, the crash scene from Castaway, and really dark scenes like outer space. Never did the black in a normal scene not appear black.

Originally posted by larsil
Thanks for the great review. what do you think of the Carada Brilliant White? (1.4gain) This is the screen I am thinking of purchasing for the sony. (100" diag) The hs51 will be my first projector.

Since I've had no other screen than my Dalite HCCV, I cannot comment on other screens. I would say, however, that the screen size you've chosen fits the projector better than my 120". I'm not certain what effect the white screen would have as mine is a grey screen. I don't know how much that might "lighten" the blacks. Then again, I'm not certain how much my HCCV deepens the blacks either. I'll have to bug screen companies for samples and hope they are large enough to make an assessment.

Brian, I posted a Barco 808/BenQ comparison in the CRT forum a month or two ago with the title "fight night".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444923&highlight=fight

I think the 8700 is pretty comparable to the 808, except blacks were on the dark grayish side. But overall my girlfriend preferred the 8700's picture, so go figure. I ended up not keeping the 8700 because of the unsolveable tearing issue I had (that others didn't have), and because, after a lot of viewing, I was getting DLP eyestrain. With the HS51 just around the corner (at the time) and the Sharp Z2000 coming out soon, I thought I'd wait and see what those had to offer.

I too suffer from streaking on my CRT that drives me nuts. Curt Palme seems to think this shouldn't be an issue, but I never got around to testing some things out that he suggested to try to isolate the problem.

If screendoor really bothers you, I think you should try before you buy the HS51. As I said a bit earlier upthread, SDE is somewhat problematic on this unit for me, though not unliveable.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Originally posted by ay221
Does this HS51 projector allow for SD/HD matrix selection on
720p or 1080i via hdmi?

I haven't seen any setting with a name like that in the manual or user menus.I haven't seen any setting with a name like that in the manual or user menus.

So if this is a no go, then I have to lean towards the panny dvd player. People with the HS20 say the projector has green push, so the green depression on
the sony player compensates for it.

Iv'e been waiting and loonged for the HS 50 for the last 6 weeks and i tell ya, it's isn't always fun, the story gets longer, this is going to be the first projector i get, since has been looking and waiting for a very long time -that's the summer of '94!!!
Projector tech has changed a bit since then.
For the better that is, but now im so tired of waiting.
Has the cables, the Denon 2910 dvd player, but nooo!
Most keep on waiting, almost got me an HS 20 or TX-100 earlier this year.
Almost regret for this long gone waiting....

I agree with Darin. The more I read about a dull image, the more I believe the HS50/51 and Dalite Hi-Power Screen will be a fantastic combo. It should be very popular.

I had the fortune of watching an entire movie on a friends (BrandonB) 119" Hi-Power and really found myself liking the screen material. His projector is not a HS51, but a PLV-60, so the image was REALLY bright. There's something about a bright white level that allows me to not be bothered by a not so great black level. I'm sold on the Hi-Power material and will be buying his used screen (He wants an even bigger Hi-Power) or buy a new 106".

Exactly what "suggestions" did Curt make?

About the brightness:
I read a comparison between the Sanyo Z3 and the HS50.
And he said the Z3 has about the same in brightness as the HS50.
Well, if he would consider one dimmer, it would be the Z3. Even not by much.

Can anyone comfirm this?

Is the Z3 as bright/dim as the HS50 in Auto IRIS/Cinema mode?

Originally posted by dandaroy
I decided to post this here:

OK I have made some progress in relaying the information to Sony. I called on 11/29 and reported the problem to Sony advanced technical support. I called today again and after weeding through the knuckleheads in the basic support division, I was finally able to talk a technical support guy at the highest level. I reiterated the problem again and he modified my complaint. He also told me that my complaint has been forwarded to Engineering and they are looking at it. He said he would send my modified complaint again to Engineering. He indicated that his contact with Engineering sits very close to him and he would go and bug him about it again. He also told me that Engineering would test a unit out to see if they can duplicate the problem. He said so far there is no fix from Engineering but they have not ignored it. I requested him to call me tomorrow with a an update and he said that he would ask his Engineering contact to call me with an update tomorrow regardless of any resolution by then.

So this is positive, but we will wait and see what happens! As far as recall, there is none and he told me such a problem, if verified, would be fixed with a FW upgrade.

Will keep you posted.

Any updates on this dandaroy?

I currently have a panasonic pt-l300 projecting on to a 120" goo crt screen. I'm considering upgrading to the hs51 but recent reports have made me leary about brightness. My 300 has over 1000 hrs on the bulb and I'm satisfied with its brightness now. I'm wondering if anybody would be able to give me an estimate if the hs51 would be at least as bright as a panny 300 with an old bulb.

I just order a Hi-power to go with my HS51. it will be here next week. I am curious to see how it pairs up with HS51 with iris auto and bulb in low mode.

Originally posted by EHUFF
I agree with Darin. The more I read about a dull image, the more I believe the HS50/51 and Dalite Hi-Power Screen will be a fantastic combo. It should be very popular.

I had the fortune of watching an entire movie on a friends (BrandonB) 119" Hi-Power and really found myself liking the screen material. His projector is not a HS51, but a PLV-60, so the image was REALLY bright. There's something about a bright white level that allows me to not be bothered by a not so great black level. I'm sold on the Hi-Power material and will be buying his used screen (He wants an even bigger Hi-Power) or buy a new 106".

Originally posted by gobrigavitch
I currently have a panasonic pt-l300 projecting on to a 120" goo crt screen. I'm considering upgrading to the hs51 but recent reports have made me leary about brightness. My 300 has over 1000 hrs on the bulb and I'm satisfied with its brightness now. I'm wondering if anybody would be able to give me an estimate if the hs51 would be at least as bright as a panny 300 with an old bulb.

If and when Boxlight gets around to replacing the cooling fan on my 1HD and sends it back to me, I can offer a comparison with my HS51. The Panny 300 and 1HD are very similar and my 1HD has about 1300 hrs on it. Boxlight is staring to tick me off. They keep wanting to reproduce the problem. It's a freakin' $9 part at most. Hell, I'll pay for the damned part just so long as I don't void my warranty. I hate cheap people.....

Have the people who find the HS51 too dim tried the High Lamp mode? I ran a quick test viewing a black field and switching between High and Low lamp mode. It was not a significant difference, maybe due to the auto iris. So you may be able to run High Lamp mode and still get good blacks.

Interesting that people are seeing the black borders on 720P via component. I did not see it with 480i on component. There must be some logic in the PJ that decides whether or not to apply whatever processing causes these borders. I never found any progressive resolutions on HDMI that did not have the black borders. I also saw them with 720/50P settings on Input A connected to an HTPC. This was the only setting I tried on Input A in computer mode that had them. Very strange.

Originally posted by Fishhooks
So without rambling on too much, I am definitely on the side of the vast majority of the world who want a great picture out of their purchase and don't own test and calibration gear or can't afford to have 'Mr. Calibrator' knocking at their door. (Anyone like to take a guess at the ratio)
To each his own, but if you don't at least buy a DVD such as Avia or Video Essentials and do the basic adjustments (brightness, contrast, color, hue sharpness) you are missing out on the best your display can do. I don't think any TV or projector comes with these items correctly adjusted out of the box. With front projection, the best settings depend on the room, light level, screen etc, so it is impossible for the manufacturer to preset it so it is best for your setup.

I think you can find Avia for $30 if you shop around, minimal compared to the cost of your Home Theater. You don't need special equipment, just your eyes and the DVD. I just used Avia to do the basic settings and it made a big improvement in the quality if the HS51 image. The only downside is that once you become accustomed to a properly adjusted display you can never go back. When I go to other people's houses to watch their expensive TVs with "out of the box" settings, it really bugs me because I know how much better it could look.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Have the people who find the HS51 too dim tried the High Lamp mode? I ran a quick test viewing a black field and switching between High and Low lamp mode. It was not a significant difference, maybe due to the auto iris. So you may be able to run High Lamp mode and still get good blacks.



I recall reading when these threads about auto iris began someone saying that one advantage this innovation allowed is that it would allow the full brightness of the PJ to be available. Makes sense, as you are still moving the same CR window about.

Perhaps the controlling algorithm moves the window between the brightest output of the HIGH mode and the low end of the LOW mode and adjusts the iris and gamma to create the same low black level (just a change in the aperture) and when it opens to maximum the bulb being HIGH gives greater brightness.

Bending the gamma per the scene APL, would lower your blacks or stretch them to help shadow detail.

Could be tested.

ted

hi

witch of the two mitsu hc900 and hs50 do you belive delivers the best picture in terms of punch and depth for DVD (not HD) just DVD.

THANKS IN ADVANCE

You are asling a question independent of source (DVD, I know, buy player make/model and its quirks).

TheFerret: Since you are a HTPC guy. Got a question. With this 720p HDMI "problem" with the HS50, is it impossible to HTPC users get rid of this blanking?

Some say you can send 1080i to the Sony, and it scales. But I cannot do that with a HTPC. But I could send 1080p? Or Sony doesnt accept that signal?
Does it ONLY accept 1280 x 720?

Grr.. I really want to use the HDMI input. I seen screenshots comparing component signal and HDMI - and the difference was much bigger than I expected. (Using DVI/HDMI created a much more cleaner signal - which is very important on a big screen).

Originally posted by ted1001
TheFerret: Since you are a HTPC guy. Got a question. With this 720p HDMI "problem" with the HS50, is it impossible to HTPC users get rid of this blanking?



Sending the projector a 1280x720 HTPC signal does not "invoke" the blanking. You need to use Input A and run the APA once but once completed you have a great picture with no blanking using 720p.

ted - That's definitely something we still need to hear. At some point we'll be passing 1080p to our video equipment anyway so I think a test is in order. 1080p seems like something that would scale nicely to 1280x720 and may, like 1080i on some projectors, look better than feeding a 720p signal.

ted1001, I am not an HTPC guy. In fact, I have stated more than once in this thread that I am a PC guy looking to use my computer for non-HT activities on this projector. Not to be mean or anything, but people keep equating my desires for a PC+projector with HTPC, and that just is not the case.

Additionally, I have very little experience using PowerStrip, which some are using to create custom (non-standard) resolutions and timing. It has been reported by someone that on another forum (French, I think) that someone else had managed to get rid of the black border by altering the refresh by a minimum of 1.5 Hz. Unfortunately, I believe that someone (John, aka jschefdog) locally tried this without success.

As a result, it is still the same condition in which feeding the HS50/51 a native 1280x720 progressive analog (Component) or digital (DVI/HDMI) will produce a black border. I was personally hoping to use the digital transport for 1:1 mapping for desktop applications and gaming, not HD or DVD playback.

Upon further thought, I am very suspicious of the bandwidth of the video processing electronics in the Sony products. I believe that Sony chose to save face and deinterlaced down (1080i-->540P) on higher-bandwidth resolution, which may play a part in why some see 1080i looking better than 720P. This processing, I think, must take place in the uncompressed realm, which means bandwidth constraints would show themselves here.

And since 540P requires less processing bandwidth than 720P, I can only continue to wonder if this is the case. Someone else also pointed out that the black border could be an under-scan condition, which only adds to what I am thinking. But, I cannot resolve the condition that others have reported border-less condition when feeding a 720P signal on the RGB input, which now (upon my light-bulb coming on) makes me asks all those HS51 owners out there to compare the 1080i and 720P RGB signals for PQ.

Originally posted by GScott
Sending the projector a 1280x720 HTPC signal does not "invoke" the blanking. You need to use Input A and run the APA once but once completed you have a great picture with no blanking using 720p. Is the 'G' (in GScott) Gary? I can never remember, sorry. Anyway, brain hurting. APA? I'm really lost on your reply. Does running this APA once on the RGB input resolve the blanking/underscan condition on the other inputs?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Is the 'G' (in GScott) Gary? I can never remember, sorry. Anyway, brain hurting. APA? I'm really lost on your reply. Does running this APA once on the RGB input resolve the blanking/underscan condition on the other inputs?

Yes the 'G' is Gary but it really doesn't matter. The APA function is auto pixel alignment I think. I runs everytime you input a computer signal on Input A. All I did with Powerstrip was select one of the provided custom resolutions ("1280x720 HDTV derived" I think), set my refresh to 59.94 and let the APA do its thing. It runs for about 10 seconds and while it is running the screen shifts around but once complete you have a nice, crisp 720p picture without the blanking borders. Once it has run once you can apparently turn off APA in the menu so it doesn't run everytime you switch to the computer input. There is also an APA button on the remote that you could probably use if you changed the computer's resolution.

Unfortunately APA only works on Input A and so far I have only tried it on a computer input.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GScott
[.
Brightness...On auto iris this projector is indeed on the dim side. In fact my G70 with worn tubes was brighter. It was nice to be able to increase the brightness by selecting the Dynamic mode but then you lost all the benefits of the auto iris. I would definately recommend a white screen vs a grey screen for this projector.

I finally got a chance to check out the HS51 side by side with the AE700 and the Sharp 12K. On the darker scenes the HS51 matched up well with the Sharp for depth. But on lighter scenes, it didn't. The AE700 wasn't in the ballpark, IMO and the extra $ are worth it.

My question: I'm looking at a 106" screen for the HS51 and was leaning toward grey to enhance the blacks. You recommend the white screen. Others agree, recommending the High Power. But won't the grey improve the depth in the lighter scenes?

If it is to be white, what sort of gain should I be looking for in a light controlled room?

Thanks for the feedback.

Gscott: But I would like to keep the signal 100% digital. I cant do that if use Input A (analog, right?).

Ted, you are correct. Until I get my projector or a friend get's his, can someone write down what the menu options are in the Factory and Service menu? I know its a chore, but you would be a hero to some for doing some.

For those with 51's and are ceiling mounting this projector, what are you using? Has anyone been able to get the Chief RPA-2131 to work? If so where did you find the best price? My dealer offered a Peerless Vector Pro,
but he's not sure if that will work; although it fit the hs-10/20. Some have said the hole pattern is the same, just trying to confirm. I hope to order this soon so any help would be great.

Keep the great reviews coming

------------------------------------
JMASS

Originally posted by jpmassey
For those with 51's and are ceiling mounting this projector, what are you using? Has anyone been able to get the Chief RPA-2131 to work? If so where did you find the best price? My dealer offered a Peerless Vector Pro, but he's not sure if that will work; although it fit the hs-10/20. Some have said the hole pattern is the same, just trying to confirm. I hope to order this soon so any help would be great.

I'm using a 12" long 1.5" diameter black pipe, a couple of pipe nipples plus bolts/nuts, a sheet of 2'x1.5' sized 1/4" plexiglass, and some 5mm bolts/nuts for projector mounting holes. Total cost, about $20. Extremely simple to make, not overly ugly because it is too high to really notice, and just as adjustable as the $200 professional mounts. Only drawback, no real security options.

Attach the pipe nipple to the center of the plexiglass with bolts. Drill holes for the project mount holes by setting the plexiglass on the bottom of the projector and taking a sharpie to mark the hole locations. Take the 5mm bolts and spin down the nuts towards the head of the bolt. Insert the bolt through the plexiglass and screw into the projector mount points for all three bolts. Screw the pipe nipple end of the plexiglass onto the pipe mounted on your ceiling. When you suspend the unit from the plexiglass, just spin the nuts up or down the bolt to adjust the pitch and attitude.

I used this for my old 1HD and it worked like a charm. Works great for the Sony, just needed to drill new holes for the different mounting holes. BTW, if you want to get fancy, substitue the plexiglass for wood. Then finish or decorate to suit taste.

jschefdog,

Thanks for the lens measurement. That makes an ideal match between the HS51 and Cygnus IMX934 processor lens.

I think the powerbuy is over though.

ay221,

More news on the IMX coming shortly.

Originally posted by jpmassey
For those with 51's and are ceiling mounting this projector, what are you using? Has anyone been able to get the Chief RPA-2131 to work? If so where did you find the best price?

I'll using the Chief RPA-2131. It's confirmed to work with HS-51. Many places have it online for about the same price.

I have one of the IMX lenses and I think it will work well with the HS51. I've just been waiting to get a chance to try them together. I'm surprised that even with the small number of HS51s out there that nobody near Seattle has one and wants to see it with an IMX.

--Darin

Anyone heard anything about availibility? I was hoping to get a unit before Christmas. My dealer said the initial distribution was so small there is still a big backorder.

Jim

That makes an ideal match between the HS51 and Cygnus IMX934 processor lens.

Are you sure that particular model will match the HS51?
I want to order one of those process lens from Cygnus


I was hoping to get a unit before Christmas. My dealer said the initial distribution was so small there is still a big backorder.

Christmas? I am hoping to get one in time for the SuperBowl.:D

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I'll using the Chief RPA-2131. It's confirmed to work with HS-51. Many places have it online for about the same price.

I heard the 2131 works but is not 100% ideal because of it being hard to get to the vents for cleaning or the bulb for replacement (can't recall which). Check with Chief as I think they have a new model coming out for the HS51 for that reason.

----dltf90, Carlton----

Thanks for the info...I remember seeing that DIY mount some time ago and it looked interesting. What the hell I think I'll save $180 and go for it. Why not, just about everything else in my theater is DIY i.e.(screen, acoustic panels, rack...) Thanks for the inspiration! If it doesn't work I'm only out $20 and with the money I save maybe I can pick up the Panny s97.

Come on Sony!!!!

Originally posted by jsirwin
Anyone heard anything about availibility? I was hoping to get a unit before Christmas. My dealer said the initial distribution was so small there is still a big backorder.

Jim

Yea, if anyone knows, chime up. I may just get an AE700 since they are available and cheaper! I am getting impatient.

Originally posted by GScott
Yes the 'G' is Gary but it really doesn't matter. The APA function is auto pixel alignment I think. I runs everytime you input a computer signal on Input A. All I did with Powerstrip was select one of the provided custom resolutions ("1280x720 HDTV derived" I think), set my refresh to 59.94 and let the APA do its thing. It runs for about 10 seconds and while it is running the screen shifts around but once complete you have a nice, crisp 720p picture without the blanking borders.
The APA does a good job, but I found that after it ran there were interference patterns in a 1x1 pixel B&W checkerboard image. I had to manually adjust the HSIZE and Dot Phase settings (under Adjust Signal) to eliminate this interference. This is what the experts say is required to insure "perfect pixel mapping". See this post way back there (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4723551#post4723551) for details.

The attached zip file contains a 1280x720 pixel bitmap file that you can set as your background. It is a 1x1 pixel B&W checkerboard which includes corner markers at 1, 5, and 10 pixels. Set this as your windows background/wallpaper and you can insure that you are getting the full 1280x720 pixels displayed. If you can't see them all, use Signal, Adjust Signal, Shift to move the image around.

The zip also contains some GIF patterns that you can load into an image viewer. 1 pixel vertical lines, a 2 pixel grid pattern and 2 pixel diagonal lines. If you can view all of these with no interference patterns you have the optimum settings. You must make sure you are viewing the GIF images at 100% size.

Those gif's are 1386 x 788. Not a great test pattern for a 1280x720 projector, right?

I think the GIFs were developed for a different panel size. They are not mine, I downloaded them from another forum post some time ago. They are not suitable as a desktop background, but if you load them into an image viewer that will display them at 100% size with scroll bars they should still be useful. The bitmap however is 1280x720 and works as a desktop background. Some motivated individual could crop the GIFs to 1280x720, but I don't think it's necessary to run the tests.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I think the GIFs were developed for a different panel size. They are not mine, I downloaded them from another forum post some time ago. They are not suitable as a desktop background, but if you load them into an image viewer that will display them at 100% size with scroll bars they should still be useful. The bitmap however is 1280x720 and works as a desktop background. Some motivated individual could crop the GIFs to 1280x720, but I don't think it's necessary to run the tests.

If you are using the Windows XP Image Viewer application to view these graphics, stop!

I found out the hard way quite some time ago that the Image Viewer will interpolate graphics, even GIF's. The only reason I can think for this is to make them look better to the average person, but such action is completely unacceptable when trying to view something critically.

If you have an Image Editor with a full-screen preview mode, or maybe a web browser (that doesn't interpolate or resize graphics in any way) that can be run in kiosk mode, that would be the way to go.

I found out that Windows Media Player 10 in full screen mode seems to work fine for me for the bitmap checker pattern. Just make sure your display settings are set to 1280x720 first.

Read some "gossip" from a dealer in Europe. He said there is a buzz that Sony will move the introduction of the HS50 to February in Europe. The few units that's been shipped (mainly in France) will be pulled back. The reason is some sort of error on the units.

The reason for February date is because Sony wont have time to catch the "christmas shopping".

But this could be completely BS too. But you start to wonder. No dealer in Europe knows a certain date when they gonna receive more units. The days before christmas is a popular date, that shows up at some dealers. Thats probably too late if you wanna catch the christmas shoppers... so maybe its smart to move the introduction to February.

Didn't we already go through one bad rumor about recall?

Didn't I hear that Sony has decided to completely discontinue the HS51 because of serious defects and, instead, focus on the HS100 that will be released September of 2005? From what I hear, all HS 51 units have been recalled and sent back to the manufacturer permanently.

Those that have an HS 51 from the early defective release have gotten a letter from Sony to send the units back for a full refund. It also states that if they choose not send the unit back as required under "recall" rules, the warantee is null and void and the customer takes full risk and responsibility for any problems the projector my have.

Of course, this is just an untrue rumor.

No, it's all true. I got the letter. But it's the HS101

Guess since the hs51 is done we should have this thread closed.

No, it's all true. I got the letter. But it's the HS101
larsil.

Is this the so-far 84 page "thread- breaker" or can someone confirm that April 1 has come early?

LOL

I see only 28 pages, Fish. You have your AVS settings on Lite-weight? :)

YEAH, 99% Fat Free

TheFerret: That rumour was about the HS51 I believe. This is about the HS50. A fact; a swedish dealer got a unit which he was suppose to use as a demo ex. But after he contacted Sony about the HDMI-blanking issue (and generally bad scaling I think) Sony wanted the unit back, so he sent it back. I havent heard any more about it since then. I hope this is just BS, created by some jealous competitor. But the silence from Sony according any dates is troublesome. (I mean, who releases a projector the days AFTER the holiday... talk about missing potential buyers.)

How about posting the exact wording of "The Letter" larsil?

I thought the only difference between the two units was the Ethernet port? And the model number, of course. :)

i don't know about the rumors, but today, a major online dealer set the date back once more from 12/10 to 12/17. if they don't get a whole lot more out by christmas, they will be missing out on some buying potential, not due to people wanting them by christmas, but due to people spending all their money on christmas.

Fishhooks,

Sorry, I was just building on ricwhite's funny post.

The truth is, I have been looking at all those screenshots of the HS51 in the screenshots thread and I am not in the least worried about the sony.

Larry

But did Crotchfield push back the date for additional delivery of inventory or for its initial delivery of inventory?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Crotchfield

LOL

Its my impression of those people. I do not like them. I buy mail-order because I am looking for a better first, and pure availability second. Why would I want to pay list price from them unless I had other motives in mind?

It is their generous return policy stupid :) Many people lincluding me want to buy from a place knowing that if they did not like it they could return it and not have to sell it at a loss. I have been burned before that way. Ans yes, I am slow in making up my mind on a product, and cannot decide in 4 hours.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Its my impression of those people. I do not like them. I buy mail-order because I am looking for a better first, and pure availability second. Why would I want to pay list price from them unless I had other motives in mind?

I try to make the best decision before I place an order for something. Admittedly, I have placed an order for the HS51 without any direct auditions, but I am counting on a friend getting his order before mine. This will give me a chance to demo the unit and cancel if need be. I've also suggested pushing my order back some (allow newer orders to be filled before mine) in order to provide for more demo-time with someone else's unit.

I can understand that when this opportunity I am just stated doesn't present itself to some people, but I try to make an effort. I know they have a gracious return policy, but what if you bought from them on this contingency and decided you really wanted the product in the end. That's a lot of moola to give up several hundred dollars--unless of course you planned in advance to return to Crotchfield the unit and find a more lucrative source. :)

I just chose to go for a more lucrative source. Still, under the current condition of the 720P YPbPr/HDMI input problem I can see where a lot of returns will probably come their way.

So, TheFerret, you still have yours on order? You seem to be the biggest proponent that the blanking issue is a product killer. Why do you even need to demo the unit? What does it matter what the picture quality is to you if this issue makes the product unusable? Just curious about you current position...

reaper

Maybe I feel the need to perform some experiments to see what I can or cannot achieve from my own efforts. Also, I still would like to have a look at the factory menu options as yet no one can taken pictures of listed in writing what adjustments are there--although I am told there are a lot.

My current position is certainly not the same as it was at the time I placed my order, but this was before the condition was reported for YPbPr/HDMI@720P. And I can have an interest in something and still want to try something out, resolution-wise (in terms of resolving the problem), while being up-front and honest that there IS a problem.

I have equally been on both sides, which is what I would hope you would see for someone being objective. If I wanted to just bad-mouth the projector I would have certainly had the decency to be true to myself and canceled my order AND publicly stated as such.

Sorry, some of us just are not bandwagoners. :)

If you buy from someplace like Crutchfield and decide you want to keep the unit but have found it for a lower price elsewhere, you can always tell them that and see if they will lower their price for you.

I was able to fiddle around the lamp High/Low on the HS51 last night and did not find it much help with the dimness issue. I think the clear tradeoff with this PJ is that, if you want great contrast, you'll have to live with a somewhat dim picture. I have not had time to A/B this with my CRT yet, but when I do so it will primarily be with LOTR:FOTR.

How are you suppose to demo or purchase from a retail store if Sony themselves can't tell you what stores carries a HS51?
I tried contacting them by phone and email and got the same response:

"Sony is not involved with the operations of retail stores. Hence, we do not have the information as to which retail outlet currently has the Sony VPL-HS51 Cineza LCD Front Projector ."

Frustration sets in!

craige, what is your viewing environment like when watching with the Sony? I was planning on comparing the non-PC aspects against a 7" CRT.

Craig17,

I would also like to know if you are viewing in a totally dark room and what size screen and what gain the screen is. Thanks! The guy with the screenshots seems to have no dimness problem at all.

Larry

can some kind soul point me in the direction of the screenshots. :)

Steve,
Here ya go;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477183&pagenumber=2

Paul

Ferret & Larry, you can see upthread what my viewing environment is. Bascially, totally light controlled room with a black screen wall, dark side walls and black ceiling tiles above the screen area, on a Stewart 1.3 gain screen, with an 84" wide screen.

I respectfully disagree with your observations. Granted that it is dim with bulb in low mode, but there IS a difference between the bulb in low and high. I feel with iris auto and bulb high, the image looks brighter and with more punch for all practical purposes. You must be used to a brighter picture. What PJ did you have before? I had a Sony HS20 and its brightness in iris on and bulb low is comparable to HS51 auto iris and bulb high (but not low). If you still want a brighter picture, you will have to get a high gain screen which I am shooting for. However, I am concerned about the elevated black levels. We'll see when I get the Dalite hi-power screen next week.

BTW, my screen is not big only 92" diag. If you have a much larger screen then, just ignore me for a fool. :)

Originally posted by craige17
If you buy from someplace like Crutchfield and decide you want to keep the unit but have found it for a lower price elsewhere, you can always tell them that and see if they will lower their price for you.

I was able to fiddle around the lamp High/Low on the HS51 last night and did not find it much help with the dimness issue. I think the clear tradeoff with this PJ is that, if you want great contrast, you'll have to live with a somewhat dim picture. I have not had time to A/B this with my CRT yet, but when I do so it will primarily be with LOTR:FOTR.

Originally posted by craige17
If you buy from someplace like Crutchfield and decide you want to keep the unit but have found it for a lower price elsewhere, you can always tell them that and see if they will lower their price for you.


They won't.

I'm not crazy about the idea of buying retail, but purchasing from a place that offers an unconditional money back guarantee within 30 days makes it tempting. Just think - with that you can make certain that its the projector you want to live with for the next x years and that you love it, while also checking for things such as dead pixels, etc, without having to worry about getting stuck with something sub par. Yes, the spread between retail and street is significant which creates the dilemma. But the idea of the guarantee if very, very nice.

Hi all great to be back have not posted in a long time, just a couple of questions.

I have a sony hs10 was going to upgrade to the hs20 last year but found that the upgrade was not worth it at all.

so the question is is it worth upgrading from a hs10 to the hs51

I have the cr40 filter on mine and calibrated to that so the questions are

1. is the hs51 not as bright as a hs10 cr40 fited at cinama black on or is the hs51 brighter than that.

2. has the hs51 got a better picture than the hs 10/20 in sharpness and detail

3. when i watch a picture on my hs10 say a space scene the blacks look gray as there is no light on the picture to fool the brain in thinking of it been a deeper black, is the black on the hs51 a vast inprovment is it nerarly black or a gray.

4 would you upgrade from a sony hs10 to a sony hs51 as the store have 10 on order but when thay get them thay dont know

5. its the brightness thast making me think i would like to know if its on par with the hs10 with cr40 filter or better than that

thanks all

hope to get one soon to try it out but like to know what you think on some questions above

Originally posted by Meridius
3. when i watch a picture on my hs10 say a space scene the blacks look gray as there is no light on the picture to fool the brain in thinking of it been a deeper black, is the black on the hs51 a vast inprovment is it nerarly black or a gray.
I have never seen the HS10, but I would say the blacks on the HS51 are black. Not pitch black or jet black, but more black than gray. The best analogy I can think of is that it looks like a flat black wall with some ambient light reflecting off it. When I look at it my brain thinks black, not gray, but it is not absense of light. It is not quite as good as my old CRT projector or the black you get on a good tube TV, but I find it acceptable. The only time I ever notice that it isn't as black as the CRT is when the screen goes blank, or you have a dark scene with very little light such as a space scene or titles on a black background.

I have an HS-10 and I had a HS-51, and I will not be upgrading. You gain better blacks but you loose everything else like a picture you can actually see.

Footnote; I have posted that the unit I had was presumed to be faulty by the dealer. I hope it was because I was really disappointed. As I stated previously I will report back after they recieve the new 51.

craige17,

Can you post a listing/breakout of what the service menu shows and what the default values are?

You will prob. have to copy it down by hand and type it is as a screen picture is out of the question. (too many items to take pictures of)

Thanks!

TheFerret... Check your PM....

I have something for you!!!

Sony direct has them. Mine should be here tomorrow. Anyone have a screen recommendation? Sounds like it needs a little brighter screen.

Vutec Silverstar or Dalite Hi Power (if table mounted). Congrats on the new toy! Let us know what you think.

Originally posted by docphi
Sony direct has them. Mine should be here tomorrow. Anyone have a screen recommendation? Sounds like it needs a little brighter screen.

It would be nice to come up with a list of good screens (and sizes) for this projector that people have actually seen in action. Then break that down by ceiling mount and table mount projector locations. I can say for a fact that a 120" Dalite HCCV is too big for ceiling mount ;)

BTW, anyone got a good idea what a 18mo (1300hrs) Studio Experience 1HD would be worth with 3 extra, sealed bulbs? All other evaluations are excellent (no scratches, no dead/stuck pixels, factory cleaned this week). I'm selling off my old projector to put towards a new screen but I have no clue to it's value range. If you have an opinion, send me a PM. Thanks.

Tell me if you think my thinking is in error:

I have looked at all the screenshots of the HS51 on the screenshot thread. They are stunning. Have you seen them? Two pages of shots. I don't think I have seen any screenshots of any projector that look any better. Not one. Go take a look and then answer this...

I don't care what camera was used or how changing the file for use on the internet might effect the shots. As far as I am concerned, garbage in - garbage out. In this case, with the sony, excellent image in - excellent image out. Now, the only time I hear people question the screenshots of any particular projector is when the shots look great. These people say "don't trust the screenshot" I have never heard anybody say the same thing when the screenshots look like crap.

No camera, not any digital slr is going to make a dull, dim, lousy image look great. And the screenshots of the HS51 are GREAT. Again, go take a look at that thread and tell me if you think I am wrong. I am thrilled to be on the HS51 list at my dealer. And, just like with all of my Sony tv's, I know I am going to be thrilled.

What do you think?

Utopia

so how much dimmer is it to the hs10 is it alot and do you have a cr40 color filter on it and set to cinama black to on when you compairede the lbrightness

is the hs51 dimmer than the sony hs1 as i had this unit before the hs10
and found the hs1 bright for me

you said

you loose everything else like a picture you can actually see

what do you mean by this

also would you say the picture is just as clear and sharp as the hs10

thanks

Originally posted by dltf90
It would be nice to come up with a list of good screens (and sizes) for this projector that people have actually seen in action. Then break that down by ceiling mount and table mount projector locations. I can say for a fact that a 120" Dalite HCCV is too big for ceiling mount ;)
[/i]


A screen list would definitely be a great help. My initial thoughts are a Da-lite Cinemavision 110" screen and the projector ceiling-mounted. That may be too big. I'm going to play around with the PJ when I get it and try and make an educated guess before purchasing the screen.

Is no one else looking at those screenshots?

I have looked at those screen shots (not today, but yesterday and the day before that). I take any screen shot, good or bad, with a grain of salt. Unless I see something outside of coloration, saturation, exposure, etc., then there ain't much to look at.

And yes, I have a digital SLR and have tried to capture stuff on my screen from my current projector. Problem is the camera is not representing what I am see, nor can the camera conduct per-pixel exposure like my eye seems to be doing. I do not knock screen shoots as a norm, but I place little value in them aside from them look pretty.

Originally posted by docphi
A screen list would definitely be a great help. My initial thoughts are a Da-lite Cinemavision 110" screen and the projector ceiling-mounted. That may be too big. I'm going to play around with the PJ when I get it and try and make an educated guess before purchasing the screen.

From my own experiments, I would hazard to say 110" is probably still too big. I think anything above 100" is going to suck some life out the picture. I initally thought of buying a 100" 18mos ago, but figure I'd eventually have the PLV-70 and would want the larger screen. So much for thinking ahead. I can't use a table mount setting because that method won't work for my room. Must be a ceiling mount compatible screen.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I have looked at those screen shots (not today, but yesterday and the day before that). I take any screen shot, good or bad, with a grain of salt. Unless I see something outside of coloration, saturation, exposure, etc., then there ain't much to look at.

The only time screen shots work is when used for comparison and they are taken with the same camera, same setup, same conditions, and same location. If someone is having a projector shootout, the screen shots serve to at least show differences between the projectors even if the camera can't perfectly capture what viewers see. As long as a relative comparison can be made, then screenshots work. However, outside that scenario, screenshots are basically worthless.

I thought I said the same thing last week on this forum. :)

And even under that description they are only limited in worth if the display you view the pictures on does justice, which might make everything look good or bad, collectively.

Originally posted by dltf90
From my own experiments, I would hazard to say 110" is probably still too big. I think anything above 100" is going to suck some life out the picture. I initally thought of buying a 100" 18mos ago, but figure I'd eventually have the PLV-70 and would want the larger screen. So much for thinking ahead. I can't use a table mount setting because that method won't work for my room. Must be a ceiling mount compatible screen.

Do you care to hazard a guess how my screen will perform? Here are the details:

The frame size is 84"x49", 80"x45" viewable
The screen material is black out cloth painted with Digital Grey Goo.
The screen material also has a 2" felt boarder for the masking.

More information here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=445299

I am hoping it will be OK to start since it is only a 92" diagonal. But I hear (from PC) that the material is a negative gain, around 0.8. My calculations show that it will be slightly less bright than a 100" unity gain screen... by about 1ft lambert. Any thoughts? I'd like to start with this and consider upgrading sometime down the road.

reaper

It would be nice to come up with a list of good screens (and sizes) for this projector that people have actually seen in action. Then break that down by ceiling mount and table mount projector locations. I can say for a fact that a 120" Dalite HCCV is too big for ceiling mount

How does a table vs ceiling mounting affect what screen to use?:confused:

BrianKR,

The Hi Power is retro-reflective. Good reading here:

http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screenguide.html

It has been well reported the Hi-Power is RETRO-REFLECTIVE and best with table mounts but for those doing ceiling mounts what REFLECTIVE screen material options are available to add gain?

Stewart Firehawk, 1.3 gain.

Draper M2500 is also Reflective

Originally posted by bradbissell
Stewart Firehawk, 1.3 gain.


Any suggestions for a Da-Lite screen for ceiling mount and added gain?

vutec is angular.

Originally posted by EHUFF
BrianKR,

The Hi Power is retro-reflective. Good reading here:

http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screenguide.html

Thank you for the link!

Originally posted by Meridius
Utopia

so how much dimmer is it to the HS10 is it alot and do you have a cr40 color filter on it and set to cinama black to on when you compared the brightness

is the hs51 dimmer than the sony hs1 as i had this unit before the hs10
and found the hs1 bright for me

you said

you loose everything else like a picture you can actually see

what do you mean by this

also would you say the picture is just as clear and sharp as the hs10

thanks

Please read my entire post the dealer said the 51 was defective. I took it home to see what it looked like any way just to get an idea how the blacks were and colors, etc, everything about this projector shouts great price to performance value because it looks like you would need to spend another 7K just to get an incremental increase in PQ. I have not seen another 51 so I just don't know what to say except I hope the Dealers right.

1.3 gain doesn't sound like much of a gain considering how much complaining there is about how dim the HS50/HS51 is, especially if using a large screen (as I would be). I'll have to look into what REFLECTIVE material Da-lite provides and gain on it. I think something in the range of 2+ gain reflective material seems like it would be a good idea for a large screen (e.g., 120" diagonal+) with the HS51

From a closed thread. Just wanted to keep this thought running.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by worm5406
Dear TheFerret,
On page 2-2 of the service manual. Look at signal esp "vposition zoom" Might this help with blanketing? I see the default is 4.
Also waht about page 2-8 and the panel driver p.drv settings? with PSI 1 RBG settings...
Just wondering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have not yet read that manual in detail, but I wasn't sure if those pages were indeed for the Factory menu or not. And since I have not been in the presence of an HS50/1 (mine or anyone else's) I didn't want to go so far as to assume what is in that Service Manual is what is in the Factory menu.

I do see the H Size (in the manual) at the bottom of 2-2 under Signal, but nothing for vertical size.

(Ferret I took out the last line as there is no attachment)

Sony demo'ed the HS-51 at CEDIA with a 100" Stewart Firehawk, the projector was set to auto iris and high lamp mode. I viewed that demo no less than 10 times during CEDIA, and I never thought that the image was too dim- even after the projector was swapped with the "Black Screen" demo unit after the first day, so that's 2 different projectors on a 100" screen that looked great. I would say that you can safely use the HS-51 to 110" before things get hairy, and even in that case it's because of resolution, not the capabilities of the projector.

I expect my review unit late next week, as Sony will be making another shipment to dealers/etc. then. My test screens will be a 92" MicroPerfed Firehawk, a 100" Firehawk, and a 123' Firehawk for a shootout with a Qualia. (That will be VERY interesting). So, within 2 weeks I will have the definite answers to: screen size, perfed screen compatibility, and Qualia comparison. For the DIY'ers out there, I'll also use a 82" diy Parkland screen, but I'll only post those results here.

Dan

I use a high power screen with a ceiling mount and I still get gain from it, though far from the max I get when I stand up :). Remember however that high gain is not the only advantage to the HP--you also get very good off angle ambient light rejection. This is pretty easy to see when I turn on a the light in the connected dining area--even though my screen is whiter than my walls, it appears quite a bit darker when that light is on because the surrounding wall reflects much more light to my seating area than the screen.

Also remember that the hs51 has a pretty large vertical lens shift so even with a ceiling mount you can lower the pj pretty far if you want to get close to the maximum gain from the HP.

Originally posted by JJay
I use a high power screen with a ceiling mount and I still get gain from it, though far from the max I get when I stand up :). Remember however that high gain is not the only advantage to the HP--you also get very good off angle ambient light rejection. This is pretty easy to see when I turn on a the light in the connected dining area--even though my screen is whiter than my walls, it appears quite a bit darker when that light is on because the surrounding wall reflects much more light to my seating area than the screen.

Also remember that the hs51 has a pretty large vertical lens shift so even with a ceiling mount you can lower the pj pretty far if you want to get close to the maximum gain from the HP.

Unless your ceiling is lower than usual or seating height higher than usual, you are probably getting about a 1.3 gain. If you want to know PM me and I can determine this for you more specifically. Yes, when you stand up you really see what a huge difference the angle makes with gain on the High Power. One thing that can help is if you lowered the pj by 12-18" using an extension pole, if possible (assuming it would still be of the way) - that can increase gain by 50% or more.

Originally posted by lovingdvd
Unless your ceiling is lower than usual or seating height higher than usual, you are probably getting about a 1.3 gain. If you want to know PM me and I can determine this for you more specifically. Yes, when you stand up you really see what a huge difference the angle makes with gain on the High Power. One thing that can help is if you lowered the pj by 12-18" using an extension pole, if possible (assuming it would still be of the way) - that can increase gain by 50% or more.

Yes I beleive I once calculated my gain somewhere between 1.3-1.5. With the hs10 you do not have the option of lowering the pj unless you also lower the screen as the pj must be even with the top of the screen.

That is why I stated the hs51 would be a better fit because it has the vertical lens shift allowing it to be lowered closer to the seating area regardless of how high the screen is.

If Vutec wasn't so expensive I would consider it. With a real world gain of 4 and angular reflective, would be perfect for ceiling mounted projectors.

So I spent about an hour tonight A/Bing the HS51 with my Barco 808 using LOTR:FOTR. A general observation: I doubt a non-videophile would notice that much difference between the two. The images were definitely in the same ballpark, and I suspect quite a few people might actually prefer the sharper image of the LCD to the CRT.

That said, my opinion of the HS51 remains pretty much the same. It's just a bit on the dim side, and I can still see visible pixels now and again -- enough so that it takes my attention away from the movie -- even at 10 feet, even slightly defocusing the picture. Black level looked very good even by comparision, though you could definitely make out a lot more shadow detail on the 808. OTOH, I probably wouldn't notice that detail if I wasn't A/Bing the PJs, so I'm not really sure how much of an impact this actually has on real viewing.

Overall I still give the HS51 high marks, but still wish for a few improvements. I have not decided yet if I'm going to keep it or not.

Damn... somehow I start to feel I want the HS50...

The sharpness and contrast is still in my mind now 2 days later...

regards,

Li On

With my vision, I don't think the sde will affect me much. I let my eyes do the defocusing.

Originally posted by Li On
Damn... somehow I start to feel I want the HS50...

The sharpness and contrast is still in my mind now 2 days later...

That is a pretty good endorsement. I got a call 2 weeks after somebody had seen my Qualia and they said they couldn't get the images out of their mind and wanted to get recommendations for dealers to talk to, even though they already owned a different top end projector.

This is another reason I don't always believe people when they say things like, "I won't upgrade until I can get ...". Happens a lot on the CRT forum. :) I expect most of them to see something in the future that doesn't meet their list, but they won't be able to stop thinking that they want it.

--Darin

I saw a HS50 up against a AE700 here in Australia

The AE700 was so much more brighter. The HS50 looked really dim compared to it. The HS50 also had heaps more overscan on the sides than the Panasonic.

I was very dissapointed.

But someone told me the HS50 at the A/V store I was at was faulty. But I don't know.

I might just get a AE700 and save $2100 Australian dollars and upgrade on the next wave of 1080i panels.

What do you guys think...

Grr... so hard to make a decision.

The Ae700 on HDTV was so good. Looked 3D!

Originally posted by aurz
What do you guys think...

Grr... so hard to make a decision.

The Ae700 on HDTV was so good. Looked 3D!
Sounds like you were happy with it and you would save money. So, I would say go for it and don't look back for a while. Just my opinion, of course.

--Darin

Originally posted by aurz
I saw a HS50 up against a AE700 here in Australia

What do you guys think...

Grr... so hard to make a decision.

The Ae700 on HDTV was so good. Looked 3D!

I don't think you need to ask what we think. Seems like you have a good handle on what you want already.

reaper

For background… I have read extensively here and in other sources regarding the HS51 and the competition and made the decision 10 weeks back to preorder. My HT setup should be a perfect complement to this projector, and I would really prefer not to compromise. Primary reasons:

· Price – performance for my needs
· On-off contrast measured and reported by widescreen
· First-hand reports of picture quality comparisons
· Consensus regarding low/no vb & fpn, good black levels
· Other concerns (sde, blanking, brightness, even potential scaling questions) are more minor considerations to me

Important to also state that I greatly appreciate AVS and this tremendous resource, and have been thrilled with the purchases I have made so far through them and their sponsors.

Now… I just received feedback from the dealer I chose for the HS51. The dealer has been great with me throughout, btw, and I would really like to reward that and stick with them. But it sounds like I will not be able to get the Sony from them anytime soon. Not before the end of the year for sure, and no commitment of an availability date beyond that. No details seem to be available on the issue(s) causing this delay. And the feedback they have passed on from Sony along the way just reveal a constantly moving availability date. I cannot imagine what is actually going on. Perhaps this is just how Sony releases their products and communicates with their dealers.

I am probably not going to wait another x# of weeks, so I am looking into all options.

Anyone else have a perspective on what is up from their sources? How many of you are getting confirmation that your HS51 will ship anytime soon?

Originally posted by craige17
So I spent about an hour tonight A/Bing the HS51 with my Barco 808 using LOTR:FOTR. A general observation: I doubt a non-videophile would notice that much difference between the two. The images were definitely in the same ballpark, and I suspect quite a few people might actually prefer the sharper image of the LCD to the CRT.

That said, my opinion of the HS51 remains pretty much the same. It's just a bit on the dim side, and I can still see visible pixels now and again -- enough so that it takes my attention away from the movie -- even at 10 feet, even slightly defocusing the picture. Black level looked very good even by comparision, though you could definitely make out a lot more shadow detail on the 808. OTOH, I probably wouldn't notice that detail if I wasn't A/Bing the PJs, so I'm not really sure how much of an impact this actually has on real viewing.

Overall I still give the HS51 high marks, but still wish for a few improvements. I have not decided yet if I'm going to keep it or not.

I noticed the same thing comparing to my G70. The lack of shadow detail and crushed blacks was evident in the opening of LOTR-TT and also in Star Trek: Insurrection. If I didn't have the CRT to watch the scene I may not have noticed some of the missing detail but on other scenes like the one from Star Trek it may have been noticeable even without the CRT comparison. As I said in my brief review if this had been my first projector or I was upgrading from another digital I would have easily kept it. But overall the picture from the G70 is better, so much so that my wife wouldn't let me keep it and told me to return it and buy new tubes for the G70 :)

Originally posted by darinp2
Sounds like you were happy with it and you would save money. So, I would say go for it and don't look back for a while. Just my opinion, of course.

--Darin

Coming from a fellow who goes through projectors like some of us go through beer, that is a telling endorsement.:D

Its the path I chose - the family is happy and that's enough for me. Will move on when the time is right as at best the AE700 is a compromise (though a good one methinks) as there are many factors beyond the PQ.

I will "look back", however, as this has become more than just watching movies - certainly not what I expected a year ago when I stumbled onto this site and decided to return to core interests.

The input of many on this site has been rewarding and I thank those of you for your time and indulgence.

ted

Originally posted by GScott
I noticed the same thing comparing to my G70. The lack of shadow detail and crushed blacks was evident in the opening of LOTR-TT and also in Star Trek: Insurrection. If I didn't have the CRT to watch the scene I may not have noticed some of the missing detail but on other scenes like the one from Star Trek it may have been noticeable even without the CRT comparison. As I said in my brief review if this had been my first projector or I was upgrading from another digital I would have easily kept it. But overall the picture from the G70 is better, so much so that my wife wouldn't let me keep it and told me to return it and buy new tubes for the G70 :)
GScott
What kind of calibration did you do on the HS51? On the G70?
What settings did you use on the HS51?
How did the contrast compare in brighter material?
How did the brightness compare?
How did sharpness/focus comapre?

In my mind the G70 is in the top tier of pjs, just below the G90/9500LCs. Of course I am biased :). The fact that might be playing in the same league, as evidenced by " overall the picture from the G70 is better", speaks volumes for the HS51! Of course even in the same league the G70 might be the Eagles and the HS51 mightbe the dolphins!

I am really surprised that my brothering are trying to compare a $2700 LCD product to 8" CRT projectors in terms of black level and On/Off contrast.

First, even the flashlight guys will admit that LCD is the worse digital projection technology of the three out there. Second, the Sony LCD projector often costs less than a good, used Sony G70. Third, by the time you add a line-doubler/scaler etc. you have already increased the pricing differential between the two.

If you want to compare a decent/good $4K used CRT then try it on something that I would consider more fair, like the up-coming Sharp XV-Z2000 and let us know what you think. Not that I do not appreciate the reviews and experience (I really do appreciate them), but I do consider the comparing entity to be a little unfair.

And what am I going to be comparing it to? An air-coupled 7" CRT. Will the Sony be brighter? No idea, really. I haven't been in the presence of a digital projector in several months. Heck, I only know what my CRT measured in ft-L when it was calibrated 14-months ago. Still, I do have that liquid-coupled monster sitting down in my family room that I know would probably beat the socks off of the Sony, but considering I paid more for it than I'd pay for the HS51 its an unfair comparison IMO.

Originally posted by TexMark
[I am probably not going to wait another x# of weeks, so I am looking into all options.

Anyone else have a perspective on what is up from their sources? How many of you are getting confirmation that your HS51 will ship anytime soon? [/B]

I can't get any details from my dealer or SONY. I am not going to put up with VB, so my current project is getting firm street prices on the new SHARP DLP pj and if it's ~ SONY MSRP and available first, I'll buy it!
I have not heard of anyone paying <MSRP for the HS51. I have gotten confirmation that the SHARP is supposed to ship 12/13/2004 to select dealers and distributors.

Ferret,

I don't believe it was an unfair comparison in my situation. I found a really good deal on a G70 and bought it knowing all 3 tubes needed replaced. It sat in storage until we moved into our new house. Once we moved I needed to decide if I still wanted to retube it and hang it on the ceiling or go digital. I am susceptible to rainbows so DLP was out. LCOS does not fit in my budget and I also knew it wouldn't meet my black level requirements. The along came the HS51 which cost a little more than a retube of the G70 so I gave it a shot. It had an incredible contrast ratio and since I have never been able to demo a Sahrp 12k I didn't know what o expect for black level. In the end the hassle of the retube and calibration of the G70 was worth it because the picture was that much better.

Also many compared the HS51 very favorably to the Sharp 12k which did well in the G70 shootout at the beginning of the year. It may be LCD but when several 12k owners said it was close in performance I don't think it was an unfair comparison.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
GScott
What kind of calibration did you do on the HS51? On the G70?
What settings did you use on the HS51?
How did the contrast compare in brighter material?
How did the brightness compare?
How did sharpness/focus comapre?

In my mind the G70 is in the top tier of pjs, just below the G90/9500LCs. Of course I am biased :). The fact that might be playing in the same league, as evidenced by " overall the picture from the G70 is better", speaks volumes for the HS51! Of course even in the same league the G70 might be the Eagles and the HS51 mightbe the dolphins!

It was calibrated using Avia and the Digital Video Essentials. I used the mid color temp setting, cinema with auto iris and both low lamp and high lamp mode. The G70 on the other hand was not really calibrated. the tubes are pretty much done so I did a rough convergence and calibrated the brightness using Avia.

The contrast on the HS51 was puzzling. On some low light scenes it looked great with the occassional crushed black and lack of detail. A good example is the beginning of the 2nd LOTR movie in the cave. On the HS51 there was no real detail on the cave walls in a few scenes but on the G70 the detail was evident. But once the material turned brighter the HS51 seemed to lose the image depth. My wife commented that she finally understand what I meant by a flat picture. Switching to the G70 restored the 3D/depth of the picture.

The HS51 was actually dimmer on auto iris and low lamp than the G70. I think it was dimmer with the lamp on high (auto iris) but I didn't spend enough time in this mode to be certain.

As far as focus and sharpness I didn't spend much time comparing since the G70 was not dialed in. To give an example, on the G70 astig pattern the dots were flared and oblong so you know it wasn't dialed in. On the other hand the G70 is one of the sharpest CRT's and in areas were the astig was closer to were it should be the G70 compared very well. The HS51 was still sharper but it wasn't a knockout. Even less so after I defocussed slightly to get rid of the SDE.

While the HS51 puts out a nice picture the G70 was clearly better in most areas. I didn't find myself being "lost" in the picture on the HS51. I would expect the gap to increase (not sure by how much) once the G70 is retubed and setup correctly. Please don't take this as a bash on the HS51 or digitals in general I just preferred the picture of the G70.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am really surprised that my brothering are trying to compare a $2700 LCD product to 8" CRT projectors in terms of black level and On/Off contrast.

First, even the flashlight guys will admit that LCD is the worse digital projection technology of the three out there. Second, the Sony LCD projector often costs less than a good, used Sony G70. Third, by the time you add a line-doubler/scaler etc. you have already increased the pricing differential between the two.

If you want to compare a decent/good $4K used CRT then try it on something that I would consider more fair, like the up-coming Sharp XV-Z2000 and let us know what you think. Not that I do not appreciate the reviews and experience (I really do appreciate them), but I do consider the comparing entity to be a little unfair.

And what am I going to be comparing it to? An air-coupled 7" CRT. Will the Sony be brighter? No idea, really. I haven't been in the presence of a digital projector in several months. Heck, I only know what my CRT measured in ft-L when it was calibrated 14-months ago. Still, I do have that liquid-coupled monster sitting down in my family room that I know would probably beat the socks off of the Sony, but considering I paid more for it than I'd pay for the HS51 its an unfair comparison IMO.

I dissagree. I think the most usefull user reviews are ones by people that can do A/Bs with pjs of known quality. IMO A review from a Sharp 12k owner who says "the CR and black level of the HS51 is comaprable to my 12K" is more revealing than one which says "I just got a 8700. The CR is fantastic!"

Li On:

On the closed thread, you started comparing the HC900 to the Sony HS50.
You liked them both but thought the HS50 would fit your room better.

Can you expand the comparison to include contrast, brightness, SDE, black levels, scaling, and
other measures of picture quality.

Thanks for your time.

Gary, I wasn't talking specifically your G70, but just the G70's in general. I have not seen the Sharp XV-Z12000 because the nearest Sharp dealer chose to take their dealer demo unit and install it into the owner's home--nice that the public can't see that dealer demo unit.

As such, I do take comparative comments between the 12K and HS51 with a grain of salt (call it the salt of ignorance/inexperience :) ). I think most HD2+ units are naturally going to look better as their ANSI contrast is much higher.

Please don't think I was denouncing your efforts, but more stating what I personally considered fair and unfair. This should be interpreted that I place the HS51 on par, for comparison-sake, with lesser CRT's and not more prominent ones.

I would be curious to know if the next version Sony comes out with a tighter DI (maybe a pair of them) to retain the black lumen measurement white affording a higher white level to restore the 'need a bright projector' consumer faith.

But I will, hopefully, see for myself. I am honest with myself and will publicly state what I see as I see it. Who knows, this may just end up confirming that even compared to a 7" CRT the HS51 could turn out to be crap. LOL

Okay, I am curious about something. How many of you that are interested in this projector have a basement ambient light level above 0.11 lumens for your viewing environment?

is anyone here concerned with the reports of this hs 51 being dim to begin with. how it will affect picture as bulb life is used up.sounds like you will be changing bulbs way before the life of the bulb is up just to keep a viewable picture.

Ferret,

No problem. I wasn't taking offense at anything. I hadn't previously explained my situation and reason for getting the HS51 and I thought it would probably be beneficial to those reading my comments. I really have no doubt that once it comes time to retube my G70 again that some digital technology will have surpassed CRT quality. I only hope it's not priced in the Qualia range.

Gary

GScott
Did you use gamma off. That is the most agressive curve that should give the most detail.

I think hs50 is a big step in the right direction. I think that with Epsons 720p D5, 60 percent fill factor, MLA and auto-iris they are aiming for 7500-9000:1 the match will last past the first round with lesser crts. Only time can tell if this is true though. Epson is also using a 200W bulb.

Ohlson,

Yes I followed the WSR recommendations and had gamma off and also the black level setting was off. With Avia my brightness setting calibrated around 50 or 51 and I left the contrast at 70.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Okay, I am curious about something. How many of you that are interested in this projector have a basement ambient light level above 0.11 lumens for your viewing environment?

You mean the light meter will read the same whether the projector is on or off? LOL! :D

Seriously, I think we may start to need a wireless readout unit for a light meter so we can take the value of 0 at the other room!

regards,

Li On

Li On, I agree. I cannot see why a A, B, or G wireless connectivity solution canot be integrated into these meters. Heck, even a wired unit using CAT5/Ethernet would be nice.