I'm comparing them because I'm looking to replace my 808 with a digital PJ in the same price range (I paid $3,500 for a retubed 808). Since DLPs give me eyestrain and I also see rainbows, LCD seems to be the next best option.

So it's not surprising that I'm comparing them...how useful that is to you guys is a YMMV situation. I figure any bit of info about the HS51 is useful to potential buyers at this point.

I'm also interested in the comparisons of the HS51 to the Sharp 12000, since I like the 12000 image a lot (my DLP issues not withstanding). Regardless of price or technology, if something can compete with the 12000, I'd like to hear about it :-)

Just a reminder:

"Best of all, superb image quality is delivered at a very low price, resulting in great value."

( a quote from the Bill Cushman review of the HS51)

He did not use the word dim. He used the word "Superb". I do not here that word used too often about anything!

Dimness questions
Does anyone know if WSR measured the white level (100IRE) with IRIS-auto or IRIS-off? I am assuming they used IRIS-off for the greyscale calibrations?

Li On was there any difference in IRIS-auto vs IRIS-off light output?

On the Projector Central review they say:

"So in video mode this is not a bright projector by any means. All home theater projectors benefits from a dark viewing space, but for the HS51 a dark room is more important than most. "

So I'm not the only one ;-)

What I am trying to understand is that the two "out of the box" measured high lamp lumens have been 658 and 575, by WSR and Li On. The numbers after d65 greyscale calibrationswere 500 and 285 lumens respectively.

I do not believe that any early owner have greyscale calibrated their pjs! This means that the reports should be based on machines producing > 500 lumens in high lamp mode. On a 87" x 49" 106" diag screen that is ~ 17 FtL. much brighter thanthe level one would see in a typical cinema.

For comparisons
BenQ 8700 is ~320 lumens per WSR
Sharp 12k is ~ 265 lumens per WSR
Sony G70 is 240 ANSI lumens, 320 all white, 1200 peak (10%) according to Sony. Mine measured 210 ANSI!

IIRC one of the new owners reported the HS51 was brighter than his Sharp 12k, after IRIS-auto calibration.

Utopia, a HS10 owner says the unit he took home was so dim as to be unwatchable. The HS10 is not a light cannon by the way.

The reports of the HS51 as dim amkes me suspect that there might be some serious bug/issue in some HS51!

I have seen two different HS50:s and both on 1.0 gain screens (about 90") and they have not been dim with auto iris. Just watched it today again at a dealer since I was starting to questioning my last viewing after reading all the posts about how dim it is.

Yes its dimmer than an AE700 or a Z3 (in the same room as I saw it in) but not by much. The image has much more contrast though which makes its stand out from the screen more and I find myself prefering that to the more lumens. We even turned on some back-lights to simulate an enviroment with ambient light and the image still looked pretty good.

Im also starting to wonder if some people have gotten units with problems, since they feel it is so dim.

One rumor was that there was something wrong with the lamp or part of the "light system".

WSR measured lumens at contrast 100 and 80(normal).
What I have read is that the iris never is fully open in auto mode. So iris in off should give the most lumens. Someone said that was on purpuse to get better ANSI cr.

I got mine today (thanks Sony direct). Why is it that Fedex requires a signature for a $20 package but decides it's ok to leave a $3500 projector on my doorstep? Luckily I was home and saw the Fedex truck drive away. End of rant.

I don't have my HT room completed yet. I wanted to check out the projector before ordering a screen. There's also some ambient light filtering in through the windows. So I propped the projector on a box and shined it onto a bare (cream-colored) wall.

I put an outline for a 110" and a 100" screen on the wall. The projector is 14' back from the wall. Seating is 15' from the wall. All I can say is -Wow!
No screendoor until you get within 2' of the wall. Blacks are outstanding and in standard mode the picture does not look washed out. I didn't tweak any settings. Everything was factory standard.

There is artifact when viewing Finding Nemo, but, it's my understanding that the disk is notorious for that. It was considerably less noticable on the 100" outline.

I tried several movies when it got dark out (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Matrix, etc). The picture is really great. You can see the pores in Trinity's face in the closeups. I can't wait to install it properly and shine it on a dedicated screen. I think a 110" Firehawk will work great.

Better ANSI CR from limiting the peak lumen? Hmm ...

Originally posted by docphi
I got mine today (thanks Sony direct). Why is it that Fedex requires a signature for a $20 package but decides it's ok to leave a $3500 projector on my doorstep? Luckily I was home and saw the Fedex truck drive away. End of rant.

I don't have my HT room completed yet. I wanted to check out the projector before ordering a screen. There's also some ambient light filtering in through the windows. So I propped the projector on a box and shined it onto a bare (cream-colored) wall.

I put an outline for a 110" and a 100" screen on the wall. The projector is 14' back from the wall. Seating is 15' from the wall. All I can say is -Wow!
No screendoor until you get within 2' of the wall. Blacks are outstanding and in standard mode the picture does not look washed out. I didn't tweak any settings. Everything was factory standard.

There is artifact when viewing Finding Nemo, but, it's my understanding that the disk is notorious for that. It was considerably less noticable on the 100" outline.

I tried several movies when it got dark out (Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Matrix, etc). The picture is really great. You can see the pores in Trinity's face in the closeups. I can't wait to install it properly and shine it on a dedicated screen. I think a 110" Firehawk will work great.
Thanks for the review!

Remember to put it in Cinema Mode which is a preset for IRIS-auto. Standard Mode presets IRIS-on IIRC. See GScotts post earlier in this thread! Cinema Mode should have better blacks and also a brighter image

Cinema Mode does put the iris in Auto, but it defaults the lamp to low. This limits the white level if you determine the defalt Cinema-mode lamp settnig is too dim for you.

where is my 51 at? why is it that dealers have no clue when they will receive this projector? do they just hope sony will send them some? why can't sony make an annoucement? are there huge hs51 laying chickens, and they just don't know when the hens will spit one out? rant over.

Originally posted by ericeash
where is my 51 at? why is it that dealers have no clue when they will receive this projector? do they just hope sony will send them some? why can't sony make an annoucement? are there huge hs51 laying chickens, and they just don't know when the hens will spit one out? rant over.

Do you feel lucky?

I remember what happened with the HS20. Some dealers got them on day one and had a steady stock continually. Other dealers had to wait for months to get some and then they trickled in a few at a time. I remember reading some people who waited over six months for an HS20 and all during that wait, I went to a couple of dealers in town where I live and they had them right on the shelf. It is very odd.

There's a little electronics store here in Utah that has received two shipments so far of HS51s. Yet, many of the HUGE dealers across the country don't even have clue when they will get their first shipment in. So it's just the luck of the draw.

If you are picky about where to buy it because of reputation or price, you may have to wait a LONG time. If money is no object, you may want to order one from every dealer you can find. Yes, you may have to pay the full $3500 for one, but at least you will have one relatively soon.

As for me, I ordered mine from a place that discounts it 20%. But I haven't heard a thing about it. It may be February or March before I get it.

From what I can tell, the ones who have already received their HS51s paid close to retail price for them. Those that are discounting heavily have no stock and have no idea when they'll get them. So is a discount really worth it? That's the question.

Here's a tip. Buy it from Sony online and use this code to get a 10% discount at checkout. They will also send you a $200 e-coupon for future purchases.

CNETP10DAA01TJ8W80MTHJ7

I have finally seen the Sony at my house, on my screen (High Power) with my material. The last time I saw the Sony was at CEDIA and had commented shortly after that it will give my (then) Sharp 12K a run for its money.

I connected the HS 50 to my Lumagen HDP Pro outputting 1080/24p signal. No problems there, works like a charm. I also took the time to calibrate the picture using Avia. I used the projector's custom 1 Color Tem and paid special attention to displaying a proper Gray scale. The Gamma option was Off, Iris on Auto, Cinema mode, Lamp on low. My screen from my position is aprox 1.9-2.0 Gain.

We looked at clips from "Haunting", "Dances with wolves", LOTR, "U-571", "Gladiator", "Chicken Run" and quite a few HD segments from my JVC 30K.

I also had a Mitsubishi HC 2000 (HD2+) at my home which I have on loan (Waiting for CES before deciding on my next projector).

Anyway, here is the good stuff:

Overall the Sony has a very exciting picture. The balance of on/off CR with its Lumens on **my** screen was very good indeed. The picture looked very 3D to me with smooth transitions from Light to dark scenes. For the last 3-4 years, after selling the Sony 10HT, I lived with DLP's. I always found that LCD had a more natural feel to it. Sadly it could never compete with High End DLP's. That feeling was back when I watched the Sony. The picture looked very natural to my eyes not "over processed" like a DLP picture.
The picture had no visible SD from my seating place (5M) and looked ultra smooth.

What I did not like:

One has to use masking for 2.35:1 films. The top and bottom bars tend to be light Gray when watching a bright scene (auto iris). This will hurt perceived contrast very much and result in a somewhat flat picture.
Dark scenes over all looked quite good, but Blacks seemed to be slightly crushed, lacking details I usually see.
Colors looked fine to me, though Red needs to be fine tuned, has a tendency towards Burgundy.

After looking at the Sony I turned to the HC-2000 (I find the 12K to be slightly better) for comparison sake.
The sony currently can not compete with a HD2+, its not that far behind but not quite there yet. I did use the word "currently" because running "Smart" on it or any other software, with the use of a Red filter might bring more juice from this baby. For now the Sony can not compete with the Mitsubishi when it comes to On/Off CR or Ansi Contrast. This becomes very clear when watching a segment from "The Haunting" for instance.

I would place the Sony a step above a Sharp 10K, but a step behind a Sharp 12K.

Overall, for the money it rocks.

Ran

I just called the Sony Store here in Calgary. They told me that they have none in town and that it is a special order item that they could have in a couple of days. Just wondering if any other Calgarians/Canucks have bought through Sony Store? Does special order = Full Price? It'd be REALLY nice to have this thing for Xmas.

Ran,

Thanks so much for your review. What is your opinion about the brightness of the Sony? This has been mentioned by others as a problem.

And while you're at the keyboard - care to offer any thoughts on the Mitsubishi?

Your views are always appreciated.
Thanks

Pip

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Utopia
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
[B]What I am trying to understand is that the two "out of the box" measured high lamp lumens have been 658 and 575, by WSR and Li On. The numbers after d65 greyscale calibrationswere 500 and 285 lumens respectively.

I do not believe that any early owner have greyscale calibrated their pjs! This means that the reports should be based on machines producing > 500 lumens in high lamp mode. On a 87" x 49" 106" diag screen that is ~ 17 FtL. much brighter thanthe level one would see in a typical cinema.

For comparisons
BenQ 8700 is ~320 lumens per WSR
Sharp 12k is ~ 265 lumens per WSR
Sony G70 is 240 ANSI lumens, 320 all white, 1200 peak (10%) according to Sony. Mine measured 210 ANSI!

IIRC one of the new owners reported the HS51 was brighter than his Sharp 12k, after IRIS-auto calibration.

Utopia, a HS10 owner says the unit he took home was so dim as to be unwatchable. The HS10 is not a light cannon by the way.

The reports of the HS51 as dim amkes me suspect that there might be some serious bug/issue in some HS51! [/QUOT



This all leads me to believe some of the 51s have lumens problem, and some are OK like the one WSR had. The big question is how to figure out who is seeing the good and the bad 51s and is this a major problem? I went through the lamp bug crap for the HS-10 and a lot of people were complaining about it and they made it seem like every HS-10 was bad, while I never had any problems with my HS-10.

That being said the point I am trying to make is that if I would have read the info on here about the HS-10 I never would have bought one and would have missed out on a great projector. So hopefully if there is a problem with the 51 its not widespread. I just wish someone had some inside info about this and could share it with us and clear up the confusion on what exactly is going on.

Originally posted by docphi
Here's a tip. Buy it from Sony online and use this code to get a 10% discount at checkout. They will also send you a $200 e-coupon for future purchases. I'm still getting it for less. :p

Originally posted by TheFerret
I'm still getting it for less. :p
The tip was on how to get one soon, not on how to wait. :)

BTW: My dealer sent me an email and said they didn't think it would be before January and asked me what I wanted to do, so I cancelled.
Originally posted by Ran
I connected the HS 50 to my Lumagen HDP Pro outputting 1080/24p signal.
Thanks for the impressions Ran. Last I heard the Lumagen didn't work well enough in this mode for people to use it, although it sounded like it was close. Do you have any problems with that mode at all? I'm mostly curious for 1080i film material from a DVHS machine, as it would seem that this is a way for us to get rid of the judder that happens when going from 24Hz to 60Hz. Can you tell if the HS51 is outputting it at 48Hz (smoother pans)?

It sounds like the "over processed" look you see with the DLPs wasn't enough to tip things in the HS51's favor over the HC2000 for you. I wonder how much a masking system and calibration with a color filter would help. One thing I like about my 11k is that the colors were very balanced out of the box and a color filter wasn't necessary (I believe this is due to them sizing the segments on the colorwheel appropriately).

--Darin

Darin, that is most unfortunate. I was looking forward to you buying AND calibrating your unit in order to get points when it came time to calibrate myself. Now I will have to go find someone else that has the tools and time to buy one and guide me straight. Of course, I could cancel, too.

BTW, there must be an issue going on with Sony. I do not think this is a distribution issue as other projector products have not been in such short delivered supply.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Darin, that is most unfortunate. I was looking forward to you buying AND calibrating your unit in order to get points when it came time to calibrate myself. Now I will have to go find someone else that has the tools and time to buy one and guide me straight. Of course, I could cancel, too.

If somebody near Seattle wants to bring one over we can see what we can do with the filters I have.

BTW, there must be an issue going on with Sony. I do not think this is a distribution issue as other projector products have not been in such short delivered supply. It is possible that there was a rework issue and they can only get them reworked so fast. Or that there is some parts shortage. I don't think it is a case of them being at their long term manufacturing capacity, since this project probably wouldn't even be worth it for them at the volumes they've sold in the last month. My guess is that there will be plenty of units available at some point in the next few months.

--Darin

Ok, I bit the bullet and purchased one (thanks for the tip docphi) . This ought to be interesting since I am a CRT guy and have never had a digital...I dont consider it to be much or a risk as I can always return it or turn around and sell it because its so new.

Thanks, Brian

Brian, what is your anticipated ETA for the dealer you ordered from? You are just down the road from me.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I'm still getting it for less. :p

Yeah, the problem is is how long will you have to wait to save that money. I am also very high on a powerbuy list but have no idea when that dealer is actually going to recieve any.

I think I might bite at that sony deal if they have them in stock and can ship now. My house will be ready in the middle of january and I would like to know I will have a pj by then. Also the blue polarizer is absolutely shot on my hs10 and I need to send it in before feb. for warranty.

In my case the sony with discount seems a good deal--plus I really want one and was telling myself if I could find one for something less than msrp I would bite. Hey, I think I talked myself into getting one :).

Hey Darin,

Sadly the HS-50 owner was under time restrictions from his wife so I did not have time to check 48 or 72 for that matter.
This is the first time I tried 1080/24p through the Lumagen and it worked fine.

I really enjoyed the Sony performance. It will not signify a step-up from the 11/12K, but the potential was very exciting.

Hey Pip,

I'm using the Da-LIte High Power 106" diagonal screen. With my set-up the screen's gain is at 1.9-2.0 aprox. I was using the Sony's low lamp mode and the brightness was fine. It was surely brighter than the 12K at High Contrast mode with lamp high and 500 hours on it. It remains to be seen how the lamp will function in time, remember it was brand new. My guess is that a 1.3-1.5 screen at 106" or so, will be just fine. I for one think that you should aim for the higher Gain and use an ND filter if its too bright and/or Blacks look Gray.

Ran

Well I just received my first HS51 and threw it up table mounted on a 110" Firehawk. The projector needs total darkness in Cinema mode. We covered up a few sq feet of internal windows (used to look into the room from an internal hallway and the picture noticeably improved). Not really necessary to do this with the other projectors in the room. Only calibrated by eye.
Manual is of limited use. Still playing with the black level (low, high, off), the gamma correction settings, and the color settings. To my trained eye, the low temperature setting looks most natural on the Firehawk. Gamma 2 appears to be the best compromise for 3d and detail in the lows. Not too sure about the black enhancement setting. No clue in the manual as to what it really does. My guess is to leave it off. Screen door is a non issue from a 15 ft viewing distance. Most people see no screen door when 5 ft away from the screen. Have only viewed film sources fed into at 480i via component. Initial impressions: A nice projector in the under $3500 class. Could easily live with this machine however, I much prefer the much more expensive machines like the Qualia and the Fujitsu (although have not yet had hands on with this). Also I still prefer my 9 inch CRT FP to any bulb machine.

Originally posted by JJay
Yeah, the problem is is how long will you have to wait to save that money. I am also very high on a powerbuy list but have no idea when that dealer is actually going to recieve any.

Patience is a virtue, and all those before me are my army of guineas. :D

I think I might bite at that sony deal if they have them in stock and can ship now. My house will be ready in the middle of january and I would like to know I will have a pj by then. Also the blue polarizer is absolutely shot on my hs10 and I need to send it in before feb. for warranty.

In my case the sony with discount seems a good deal--plus I really want one and was telling myself if I could find one for something less than msrp I would bite. Hey, I think I talked myself into getting one :).
I would see if Crotchfield has them in stock and then ask them to price-match Sony. LOL
Originally posted by mark haflich
Initial impressions: A nice projector in the under $3500 class. Could easily live with this machine however, I much prefer the much more expensive machines like the Qualia and the Fujitsu (although have not yet had hands on with this). Also I still prefer my 9 inch CRT FP to any bulb machine.
I bet many others would conclude the same, Mark. Unfortunately, $10K-25K is not in a lot of people's budgets and certainly well outside the jurisdiction of this forum, no?

Originally posted by mark haflich
Well I just received my first HS51 and threw it up table mounted on a 110" Firehawk. The projector needs total darkness in Cinema mode. We covered up a few sq feet of internal windows (used to look into the room from an internal hallway and the picture noticeably improved). Not really necessary to do this with the other projectors in the room. Only calibrated by eye.



Once again how do we know if the projectors lumens output is right? The one I saw at Audio Advice needed a totally black room to get a decent picture but even then they surmised there was something wrong with the 51 and sent it back to Sony. :confused:

Brian, what is your anticipated ETA for the dealer you ordered from? You are just down the road from me.

December 15 is anticipated ship date so with ground that puts it about 3-5 days later pending christmas mail delays. I will be putting it head to head against my Barco 808 and anyone local is welcome to come by.

Brian

Most people and dealers do not have a clue as to what they are doing. This beast has obvious strengths and weaknesses. The trick is to minimize the weaknesses and to maximize the total performance. Darkness is a big trick here. Certainly watchable with some light, just switch it to standard mode. But you do lose some of the 3d effect.

Interesting, I have a darks ceiling and walls using Sherwin Williams flat paint with a light reflection value of 11 and have grayish carpet. Also can block out all other light sources. Hopefully this thing will be bright enough. If not, then its Panny time.

Originally posted by mark haflich
Manual is of limited use. Still playing with the black level (low, high, off), the gamma correction settings, and the color settings. To my trained eye, the low temperature setting looks most natural on the Firehawk. Gamma 2 appears to be the best compromise for 3d and detail in the lows. Not too sure about the black enhancement setting. No clue in the manual as to what it really does. My guess is to leave it off.
You may find this as incredible as I did, but somebody reputable told me that this black level thing just crushed the bottom 2 IRE in low and the bottom 4 IRE in high. So, I think "off" was the right choice.

--Darin

Mark, Darin, I missed the, "Still playing with the black level (low, high, off)," comment. Is this a veriable in the projector's features that is different from the lamp mode? In other words, is this a prefixed gamma setting feature? If so, was this done through the s/w, or through the menu?

The black level control is the same funtion that is found on the HS10. Basically it crushes black level and you lose detail in the lower ire levels. I have never used this function since it destroys the image. I'm not really sure why Sony adds this feature since no one I know uses it.

Why would anyone deliberately create a control to destroy an image? I'm lost here. There must have been some sort of designed 'feature', but it just went horribly went wrong.

You have a similar entitled setting on many consumer dvd players. Some people think its gives them that "theater" like quaity but I have never liked what it does.

Brian

It is independent of gamma and lamp modes. It has a high, low, and off mode. The manual says something like to give the picture more dynamics or something inane like that. Leave it of. I have no clue as to when Sony will ship me more. I appreciate just getting a demo. Just putting lots on order has nothing do do with a dealer being able to say Sony will ship them on the 15th. It does mean that Sony will not ship them any more until the 15th at a minimum. Sony does not ship between the first and the 15th of the month to its telasales (small dealers) on products that are in short supply.

I played around with the black level setting and ended up leaving it on "off" as well. I can't quite describe why, but the pic looked better in "off" mode.

You know, guys, you are right. My Sony 400-disk megachangers have these.

I've had my HS51 for about one week now, and it is a dramatic improvement over the VPL-VW10HT, my first projector. The improvement in contrast is immediately apparent, and I'm uing the same screen as previously: Da-Lite 133" Hi-Poweer diagonal. The camera pan of a starfield in the film DARK CITY was black (blank enhancement turned off); I only approached dark gray before with the 10HT and a color correcting filter.

I have no way of measuring relative brightness, and I know what the published statistics are, but the HS51 looks much brighter--even in low lamp mode--than the 10HT. My wife's first comment about the new projector was the brighter images.

Gary

GHafer, how many hours are on your VW10HT's lamp?

1000 hours. I have the original lamp of about 1000 also tucked away. The 10HT is DOA.

Gary

Ok, little confused here. Are you saying your 10HT was DOA when you first got it, or is current dead? :) A 1000 hours on that lamp could have had its lumen output degraded sufficiently. What was that lamp rated for?

Which Da-Lite screen would be more effective with the HS51 - the hccv or the white Cinema Vision?

I thought they were suggesting the high-power, for whatever that really means. :)

Thanks docphi for the tip on the 10% discount through Sony. Just ordered mine.

How much difference would an upscaling DVD player make with this projector? I currently have a Pioneer DV45a which I would still keep for my DVDa/SACD needs. Or is the main benefit of an upscaling dvd player the HDMI output?

I currently have the BenQ 7800. Would the HS-51 be a big upgrade? I watch alot of HDTV (football). Thanks.

I currently have the BenQ 7800. Would the HS-51 be a big upgrade? I watch alot of HDTV (football). Thanks.



I think people primarily interested in sports should go with high brightness projectors. This is especially true since many people will want to have parties and such with lights on. People primarily interested in DVD playback appreciate a more theater like image (dimmer but higher perceived contrast-better blacks and all lights out).

Brian

Originally posted by Kevin152
Thanks docphi for the tip on the 10% discount through Sony. Just ordered mine.


No problem. Any discount helps. Especially since Sony has them in stock.

I've been playing around with mine some more. I've got the VCR and Tuner running through it now too. Hope to have it mounted and cables run in the next few weeks. Gotta do some attic crawling!

The only thing I'm still debating about is the manual focus and zoom rings. Hopefully once it's ceiling-mounted and set, I won't have to keep getting the ladder to adjust it.

Problem with Sony Store is the tax thing so depending on where you live that discount could be cut in half or more. Granted if you really want it right away it's a decent few hundred bucks back in your pocket.

Originally posted by docphi
No problem. Any discount helps. Especially since Sony has them in stock.



Actually Sony doesn't have them in stock. I ordered one the other day and on my receipt it states that they are "out of stock" with an "unknown" date for getting them in. Oh well.

originally posted by docphi
The only thing I'm still debating about is the manual focus and zoom rings.

docphi:

Can you elaborate? I run a constant height set up using the zoom. Is the zoom ring particularly difficult to access or operate?

Thanks,
Pip

If Sony Direct doesn't have a clue as to a restock date, then I can forgive my local dealer. (hes also clueless)

Originally posted by ricwhite
Actually Sony doesn't have them in stock. I ordered one the other day and on my receipt it states that they are "out of stock" with an "unknown" date for getting them in. Oh well.


Ooops! My bad. They must have run out. Hopefully it won't be too long a wait.

Originally posted by Pip
docphi:

Can you elaborate? I run a constant height set up using the zoom. Is the zoom ring particularly difficult to access or operate?

Thanks,
Pip


It's not difficult to operate. However, it's a manual zoom/focus. There's no remote control access. I'm mounting mine on the ceiling, so I'm concerned about dragging out the ladder to make adjustments.

Originally posted by Ran
After looking at the Sony I turned to the HC-2000 (I find the 12K to be slightly better) for comparison sake.
The sony currently can not compete with a HD2+, its not that far behind but not quite there yet. I did use the word "currently" because running "Smart" on it or any other software, with the use of a Red filter might bring more juice from this baby. For now the Sony can not compete with the Mitsubishi when it comes to On/Off CR or Ansi Contrast. This becomes very clear when watching a segment from "The Haunting" for instance.

I would place the Sony a step above a Sharp 10K, but a step behind a Sharp 12K.

Overall, for the money it rocks.

Ran

This is the dilemma that I'm facing. I'm comparing the impressions of fortunates such as yourself that have seen the HS51 and also are familiar with the Sharp 10k and 12k, to the observations that I'm making of the Sharp 10k and 12k.

Does your comment about the relative placement of the Sony between the 10k and 12k have to do with the contrast and/or brightness?

I curious if going to a larger screen would tip the scales in either direction? My target screen is 106" wide (123" diag), and I'm concerned that the Sony won't be able to perform satisfactorily based on the brightness measurements some have taken.

From what I've found, the 10k will put out about 851 in High Brightness mode, 646 lumens in Power Save mode, and 365 in High Contrast mode (WSR, Issue 71). The best measured brightness of the Sony (again, WSR) gives it 500 lumens in High and 400 in low. Other measurements were much lower.

The flip-side, it seems, of that lower brightness is the higher contrast ratio. My understanding is that if a projector can achieve a base level of satisfactory brightness, then contrast really comes into play.

I took a couple of hours last Thursday to evaluate a Sharp 10k on a high gain Da-lite (I didn't get the exact model, but was told it was about 2.0 gain). After doing some tweaking using just the THX Optimode patterns and a blue filter, we achieved some fabulous pictures! Viewing scenes from LOTR: FOTR, Nemo, and SW:TESB were incredible.

I would have taken the 10k home if not for the hope that the Sony will compete if I'm just patient enough to wait for it to be available somewhere to look at. The price difference between the two keeps the promise of the Sony alive. If the Sony can deliver these kinds of images at roughly $2,000-$3,000 less, that's tough to ignore.

It's inexplicable to me that Sony has not delivered a unit to every dealer that wants to demonstrate one. If they are truly short on stock, they should be creating the demand for pre-orders through demonstrations instead of letting the units trickle out in a seemingly random manner.

It will be interesting to see if Sony can deliver before my patience runs out!

Originally posted by docphi
It's not difficult to operate. However, it's a manual zoom/focus. There's no remote control access. I'm mounting mine on the ceiling, so I'm concerned about dragging out the ladder to make adjustments.
This was pointed out before, but for those who haven't read this entire massive thread.

The manual zoom/focus could be a real issue if you plan to switch between HDMI and other inputs. The reason is that HDMI adds the black borders which effectively makes the viewable image smaller. This means you must change the zoom after switching IF you want the HDMI image to fill the screen. You will then need to change it again after switching to other inputs. If you don't have easy access to these manual adjustments it could be a real pain. If you only use HDMI or don't use it at all then this may not matter to you.

The WSR review also mentioned the "enhanced black level" setting and said that it crushed blacks. Their advice was turn it off and adjust black level (brightness) using a test disk such as Avia.

... Just got off the fence and ordered an HS50.
Expected Delivery 1st Jan in the UK! 8-)

Has anyone else contemplated getting a spare bulb?

Antony

Originally posted by jschefdog
The reason is that HDMI adds the black borders which effectively makes the viewable image smaller.

With 720p black borders. Okay this thread is so long, I don't remember, but If you feed the HS51 a 1080i via HDMI, are there still black borders?

Originally posted by aj_newman
Has anyone else contemplated getting a spare bulb?

The customary advice around here for those wanting a backup is to wait until you've hit the end of the warranty on the first bulb before buying another. Then swap them and put the first one on the shelf as a backup. That way you get to use the warranty on the 2nd bulb that would have run out (based on days) if you had bought it at the same time as the projector.

--Darin

FYI, I just got a shipping confirmation from Sony Style so it looks like I might be able to do some contrast and compare by this weekend!

Brian

Originally posted by BigScreen
This is the dilemma that I'm facing. I'm comparing the impressions of fortunates such as yourself that have seen the HS51 and also are familiar with the Sharp 10k and 12k, to the observations that I'm making of the Sharp 10k and 12k.

Does your comment about the relative placement of the Sony between the 10k and 12k have to do with the contrast and/or brightness?

I curious if going to a larger screen would tip the scales in either direction? My target screen is 106" wide (123" diag), and I'm concerned that the Sony won't be able to perform satisfactorily based on the brightness measurements some have taken.

From what I've found, the 10k will put out about 851 in High Brightness mode, 646 lumens in Power Save mode, and 365 in High Contrast mode (WSR, Issue 71). The best measured brightness of the Sony (again, WSR) gives it 500 lumens in High and 400 in low. Other measurements were much lower.

The flip-side, it seems, of that lower brightness is the higher contrast ratio. My understanding is that if a projector can achieve a base level of satisfactory brightness, then contrast really comes into play.

I took a couple of hours last Thursday to evaluate a Sharp 10k on a high gain Da-lite (I didn't get the exact model, but was told it was about 2.0 gain). After doing some tweaking using just the THX Optimode patterns and a blue filter, we achieved some fabulous pictures! Viewing scenes from LOTR: FOTR, Nemo, and SW:TESB were incredible.

I would have taken the 10k home if not for the hope that the Sony will compete if I'm just patient enough to wait for it to be available somewhere to look at. The price difference between the two keeps the promise of the Sony alive. If the Sony can deliver these kinds of images at roughly $2,000-$3,000 less, that's tough to ignore.

It's inexplicable to me that Sony has not delivered a unit to every dealer that wants to demonstrate one. If they are truly short on stock, they should be creating the demand for pre-orders through demonstrations instead of letting the units trickle out in a seemingly random manner.

It will be interesting to see if Sony can deliver before my patience runs out!

You might want to check out the sharp xv-z2000 it should be very similar to the sharp 10000 at a much more reasonable price. There is a thread on it over on the 3500+ forum. I'm in a similar boat to you (105" width screen) and from what I've garnered here I'm thinking the Sony will be too dim without going to a 2x gain screen. No one has tested the new sharp yet, but it uses the same bulb as the 12000 so I'm guessing it will have about 900+ lumens in high brightness mode and about half that in high contrast mode.

I recently saw a Sharp at a store in Atlanta and was shocked at just how dim the picture was in a light controlled room. I did not see it long though and dont know much about the way they had it set up, bulb life, etc., but my HS51 had better be brighter than what I saw. I'd say my Barco BG808 is easily twice as bright as that thing was so I must assume something was amiss.

Brian

Brian, which store had the Sharp XV-Z2000 installed? Was this Evolution?

Originally posted by EHUFF
With 720p black borders. Okay this thread is so long, I don't remember, but If you feed the HS51 a 1080i via HDMI, are there still black borders?
No, only for 720P on the Component and HDMI inputs. 1080i was the band-aid solution that some recommended. It led me to suspect their was an internal bandwidth issue for YPbPr & HDMI if 1080i -> 540P nistead of 1080i -> 1080P before being scaled to 720P.

Why this is a problem on the YPbPr and HDMI inputs and not the RGB niput is beyond me, but could be the YPbPr and HDMI are benig processed by one [set of] chip[s] and RGB by another (or not at all).

Originally posted by usabrian
I recently saw a Sharp at a store in Atlanta and was shocked at just how dim the picture was in a light controlled room. I did not see it long though and dont know much about the way they had it set up, bulb life, etc., but my HS51 had better be brighter than what I saw. I'd say my Barco BG808 is easily twice as bright as that thing was so I must assume something was amiss.

Brian

The Sharp he is speaking of is the 12K. I know it very well. That PJ has over 1800 hours on the bulb and has not even been touched for calibration. I was in the store recently and had to help them out on a few things. I know a few of the saleman very well and like the store but it amazes me how they have just hung the PJ on the ceiling and not even taken the time to calibrate it. Maybe this one just slipped by because I know they have had another Sharp in the same room fully calibrated. That was the one that sold me a while back.

the big sony online retailer everyone knows about no longer shows 12/17 expected date. their site shows in stock. i asked them how many they have, and they got 16 in stock as of today. not sure how many they got in, but if they had 16 left, i'm willing to bet they've gotten at least 30 so far with backorders and what not. so what gives with these other dealers. i don't want to pay full msrp.

Eric (awtryau89), thanks for the FYI. Can you PM which store this is. When the 12K first came out I tried to see it, and the only dealer near me that I was familiar with (Evolution) had it installed in one of the owners' home, which meant no in-store demonstration. I chastised them for that as they were taking home a descounted 'demo' unit for personal use. I haven't been back since, and as such no opportunity, really, to see an HD2+.

Now that the XV-Z2000 is due out anytime (like the Sony and Canon), I'm curious, but no hopes anyone will actually take their demo unit and install it for potential customers to audition. Between the owners taking the units home for personal, and permanent, use and those selling demo units out-right it makes b&m retail shopping worthless.

Chief is coming out starting 12/15/04 with a specific mount for the HS51 it is part number RPA 102.

And where exactly do you find those?

Brian

Eric,

Which store? I don't think it is against forum rules to post that (just can't post the price)...

Thanks,
Brian

I believe I have mine preordered at the same place as TheFerret and that store has no update.

I have the HS51 ordered from several dealers. Does anybody know if Sony Online accepts returns? If I get one from Sony and another one from a another dealer, can I return to the Sony Online Store without penalty and keep the other?

From what I have heard, there is a 30 day return policy for Sony Online with the only expense being paying for return shipping and insurance. Is this correct?

Does this mean that buyers from Sony Online have a 30 "free trial" period and can return the unit within that time with no restocking fee and a full refund (which includes the tax you paid)?

If that is true, then people can buy the HS51 from Sony Online to try it out for 30 days without fear of being stuck with it. If they don't like it or they find it cheaper somewhere else, they can return it to Sony Online for a full refund. Right?

Shipping Estimate has changed at Sonystyle as well. Today it says usually ships by next business day and yesterday it was completely different.

ricwhite,
2 dealers that I talked to had a return policy that they would take a return if there was no more than 2 hrs on the lamp.
Al

Hi All,
I emailed the projector lamp re-builder about putting a higher wattage lamp in the HS51 lamp holder.
Just got this reply.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as your Sony goes, the 130W lamp is actually a 120 watt...the UHP lamps are rated for 10% "overdrive" as a normal spec, some are stamped 120/132, 150/165, etc...now what we could do is put a 150W burner into your lamp cage/reflector assembly...you could "up-watt" the projector by increasing the lamp current via a power supply adjustment. To see if you can do this, open the machine up and find the lampdriver board. There should be 1 or 2 pots on the board...take note of their original positions, and adjust them one at a time until you find the one that brightens or dims the lamp...you'd crank that one up higher if you had us install a more powerful burner. I'd recommend cranking it up to max, and then backing off by about 10% so you wouldn't risk an overheat failure in your lampdriver. Make sure that it's the lampdriver board you are adjusting, DON'T touch any other internal pots or adjustments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are 2 pots, it would most likely be the high and low lamp adjustments.
Will order out the servise manual and check out the adjustments.

Al

Originally posted by BOBCAT
ricwhite,
2 dealers that I talked to had a return policy that they would take a return if there was no more than 2 hrs on the lamp.
Al

I am wondering about SonyStyle.com -- Sony's online store. I read the return policy and it stated that returns are allowed within the 30 day window. It didn't specify anything about use. It DID state that the insurance and shipping is the responsibility of the owner.

Let me be honestly blunt. . . is it under "policy" to purchase an HS51 from SonyStyle for retail price ($3500) and use it for 30 days or so until another HS51 is received from a "cheaper" dealer, and then return the first HS51 to SonyStyle for a full refund. That way someone can get a projector now (before Christmas) but only pay the discounted price when they get their cheaper HS51.

I'm not asking if this is "ethical," I'm only asking if it allowed under Sony Online policy. Is that what the rest of you understand about SonyStyle online, that it is a 30 day return allowance without limits on use?

Originally posted by BOBCAT
Hi All,
I emailed the projector lamp re-builder about putting a higher wattage lamp in the HS51 lamp holder.
Just got this reply.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as your Sony goes, the 130W lamp is actually a 120 watt...the UHP lamps are rated for 10% "overdrive" as a normal spec, some are stamped 120/132, 150/165, etc...now what we could do is put a 150W burner into your lamp cage/reflector assembly...you could "up-watt" the projector by increasing the lamp current via a power supply adjustment. To see if you can do this, open the machine up and find the lampdriver board. There should be 1 or 2 pots on the board...take note of their original positions, and adjust them one at a time until you find the one that brightens or dims the lamp...you'd crank that one up higher if you had us install a more powerful burner. I'd recommend cranking it up to max, and then backing off by about 10% so you wouldn't risk an overheat failure in your lampdriver. Make sure that it's the lampdriver board you are adjusting, DON'T touch any other internal pots or adjustments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are 2 pots, it would most likely be the high and low lamp adjustments.
Will order out the servise manual and check out the adjustments.

Al

Is it worth the risk of voiding the warrantee on the HS51 and possibly ruining the projector?

What exactly is anyone thinking they are going to get in term of ANSI lumen gain after trying to use a different lamp? Why not just try a different screen, or another projector?

I just got off the phone with SonyStyle - online store. As of 1:00 PM Eastern time on 12/14, they have 20 HS51 in stock. I am number 2 on the list and will it will be shipping out today. Yes, it's close to retail price but you can use the code for 10% off as given in an earlier post.

I also asked about the return policy and was told they have a 30 day return policy with no "hour" limitations. She said that if the projector doesn't meet my total expectations, I could return it for a full refund. I would have to pay for shipping and insurance, however.

So, technically, if you want an HS51 right away, you could puchase it from SonyStyle, and ***IF*** you find one cheaper somewhere else and purchase it, you could always return the Sony for a full refund as long as it's within the 30 day window. You could also see if the "cheaper" projector looks any better than the one from SonyStyle and keep the one that works the best, I guess.

Do you see any problems with this strategy?

By the way . . . I ordered the projector yesterday (12/13) and chose overnight shipping, so I should receive it tomorrow or Thursday. Overnight shipping was only $18, so I thought it was worth it.

I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing $2K B-stock inventory.

A quote from my dealer (projector center):

I just spoke with my Sony rep and he said he is not being allocated any in December. So far, his territory has received “0”.

At least Sony is getting some for themselves. . .

I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing $2K B-stock inventory.

Funny...Now I think I know why you don't get much of a return policy with most online companies.

Brian

Originally posted by ricwhite

So, technically, if you want an HS51 right away, you could puchase it from SonyStyle, and ***IF*** you find one cheaper somewhere else and purchase it, you could always return the Sony for a full refund as long as it's within the 30 day window. You could also see if the "cheaper" projector looks any better than the one from SonyStyle and keep the one that works the best, I guess.

Do you see any problems with this strategy?



The only problem I see with this is that you'd tie up between 6 and 7 thousand dollars in projectors. Despite the CS rep saying that it won't be a problem I'd be a bit fearful of losing my money somehow. One vibe I have never felt from Sony is customer first. I'd find out the estimated time for refunds as well. Last thing you want to do is return your projector with hopes of immediately putting that money into the cheaper unit and come to find that it takes 6-8 weeks to get your refund posted. I know, maybe that's extreme but it would be best to know the details before you think it's "easy" to buy/borrow and then return.

I think that people considering a projector purchase should not compare the Sony HS 51 to the Panasonic AE 700; they should be comparing to the AE 900. Those two projectors should be available in quantity at about the same time, it seems.

Has that even been announced? Any info online?

Brian

Hi!

It seems that a few lucky Americans have seen and purchased the HS51. Has anybody in Europe seen the HS50 and is anyone selling it?

Morten

Originally posted by usabrian
Has that even been announced? Any info online?
I think this was mostly a joke. The most likely announcement for an AE900 will come around September 7th, 2005 to coincide with the CEDIA show.

--Darin

Reposted here:

I have had several PM's about seeing the HS51 in action. Assuming I receive this projector Friday as FedEx tracking shows I should be up and running sometime Friday night so you folks are welcome to come by this weekend to view/compare. My Barco is still mounted on the ceiling so the Sony will just be temporarily located on a shelf or something like that. But this will allow for some direct comparisons with the BG808.

I've got the htpc, hidef sat receiver and necessary breakout cables but I do not have an upscaling dvd player or dvi cables and I don't have a sufficient number of cables to allow for quick A/B comparisons. So if people want to see it with dvi/hdmi then they should bring those as well as any specific dvd's over. An extra 20-foot vga d-sub cable would be great. I believe I have a vga selector box so that would allow for A/B comps of the Sony and Barco.

Saturday after 1pm seems like a good time to schedule this. I should be home all day. Sunday I need to go do my once a year shopping for the wifey. PM me if you would like to come Saturday and I will send you my address.

thanks, Brian

P.S: Anyone experienced in taking screen shots? That would likely be appreciated by others on this forum so bring a digital camera and we will post shots. I have a 4mp camera but have never been able to take a good screenshot with it.

It sucks that I should have to order this projector online from Sony in order to see it for myself, and incur the shipping charges and (up to) 8 week wait to have my credit card refunded... and then to pay close to MSRP (figuring in the 10% discount code, if it still works) for the pleasure.

I have a Sony dealer within 15 minutes of here that is waiting to get one in (which I have been asking them about since early November), but Sony would rather sell to me directly and run the chance that I'll return it if I'm not satisfied.

Having ~$3500 on my credit card stuck in Sony limbo for up to 8 weeks is not my idea of a good time.

If the price difference weren't so great, I'd buy the Sharp 10k right now just because the dealer has one on hand that I could look at and work with... :(

And considering the quality issues that plagued the HS20 early in its run, I really question my sanity for setting myself up for that kind of frustration with the HS51.

You can find the Chief Mount from any seller of Chief products. I found the RPA 102 from Mountsandmore.com it is being added to their site today. However, you can order one over the phone. Also don't forget when you order the projector from Sonystyle in addition to the 10% discount they also will send you a $200 E-Check which can be used to purchase a spare bulb and filters. The 10% coupon is also good for an extended warranty on the projector. You can obtain an additional 2 year service plan for $71.00 after discount. Good luck!

I just ordered mine from Sony Style. They told me it was in stock and I'm having it overnighted. I used the 10% discount coupon but forgot that I would have to pay sales tax (Oh well). This is my first PJ and I already purchased a 106" da-lite HCCV electric screen (I was on the fence between the Panasonic 700 and this one, so I ordered the HCCV material (I probably should have ordered the plain Cinema Vision with a 1.3 gain)).

I have not seen this projector in action, so thanks everyone for the input on this forum. I hope this will work out. I'm a little concerned about the light output from the projector, but I'm preparing that I may have to run the lamp in high mode in my room. During they day there will be some ambient light issues, but I watch most of my movies at night anyways.

I hope to get it hooked up this weekend and will fill you in with the results.

Lonnie

Hi All,

Like many, I still await the HS51. I heard from my dealer today that it will not be until January. That's ok because I am getting a room ready for it and it will not be done until then.

Todays item:

PROJECTOR CEILING MOUNT

I was buying a christmas present for my daughter on the Apple web site when, by chance, I came across this projector mount and it looked like exactly what I need for the HS51 so, I bought it. Take a look -

http://store.apple.com/1-800-780-5009/WebObjects/EducationIndividual.woa/70601/wo/C47uVEQjJ3Xy2ich0xOCb8QHCEQ/1.0.11.1.0.6.10

What do you think?

Larry

Woops,

PS: Scroll Down the Apple page to see the Bretford Projector Mount.

Larry

Larry, that URL will not work as its session-based.

Are most people waiting to get the projector before ordering a screen? I figured for me it's best to install the projector first and figure out the size I want before buying, even though I will most likely get a 100 inch screen.

my dealer said they aren't getting their first shipment in til jan or feb, so i'm getting an hs50 here locally in japan. paying about $100 more, but it's better than msrp.

eric

My 2 cents worth...

I picked up mine on Saturday. Have a tempory set-up off a coffee table, projecting onto an off-white wall. Projector is a couple of feet away from me and in low lamp mode it is almost silent and in high lamp, it can just be heard in a silent room (excellent).

Image is very good running interlaced PAL through an old Toshiba dvd player (have a 2910 on order). Cannot detect any VB (and I looked closely for it). In our family room, I am about 3m from a 96" D image and I cannot detect screen-door (inter-pixel gaps are lighter in colour than my Z2 from memory).

The black level for an LCD is outstanding. Watched the third Harry Potter movie last night, which is very dark, and had no problems with any scenes - the contrast is excellent. I have not callibrated the unit at this stage (waiting for proper install and screen in the new year), but at default settings, cinema mode and auto iris on, the image is very, very good.

Brightness - I have sold my Z2, but I would estimate that on cinema mode with a new bulb, the Sony is probably not quite as bright as the Z2 in eco mode with about 800hrs on the globe.

We did run the Sony late afternoon (for the kids) with fair bit of ambient light in the family room and, of course, image was washed out to some degree (I wouldn't do any serious viewing in these conditions), but the kids sat there and watched it. When the room is dark, the Sony performs very well (we still have some ambient light in the room from the dining and kitchen area - so not a pitch-black hole, so to speak).

If you have problems with high ambient light, you may want to look elsewhere. You will not get the outstanding contrast performance with high ambient light anyway, so you may want to go for higher lumens.

All in all, I'm very happy with the upgrade. I don't think the Sony is as smooth and film-like as the new DLP's with the same res (I don't suffer rainbows on the higher speed wheels) but for the $$$, IMHO I don't think anything else gets close to it in terms of what you see up on the screen. Well worth the upgrade.

WAAAHOOOO my projector has shipped from Sony should have it by the weekend!

Originally posted by Nickoff
My 2 cents worth...
Brightness - I have sold my Z2, but I would estimate that on cinema mode with a new bulb, the Sony is probably not quite as bright as the Z2 in eco mode with about 800hrs on the globe.


This setup of the Sony HS51 is similar to eco mode on the z2 right? The bulb is in low mode on the Sony. The iris is on Auto?

reaper

FYI, in stock at Crutchfield as of this morning.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
FYI, in stock at Crutchfield as of this morning.

If you use this link - http://*******.com/5zdpy - you get $10 off plus free shipping. They also have free return shipping if you're unhappy for any reason within 30 days.

I did not want to mislead anybody. My point is that Sony's delay between showing the HS51, and actually selling it, is so inordinate that it approaches the interval between Panasonic product cycles.
We see people waiting for the Sony because it is supposed to be better than the Panny 700, yet the 900 will probably be selling in quantity before the Sony hits any significant price drop. So.. might as well wait for the 900, right?
Or, get the 700 yesterday, at a discount.
Vaporware is always as good as you can imagine.

Originally posted by TrickMcKaha
I did not want to mislead anybody. My point is that Sony's delay between showing the HS51, and actually selling it, is so inordinate that it approaches the interval between Panasonic product cycles.
We see people waiting for the Sony because it is supposed to be better than the Panny 700, yet the 900 will probably be selling in quantity before the Sony hits any significant price drop. So.. might as well wait for the 900, right?
Or, get the 700 yesterday, at a discount.
Vaporware is always as good as you can imagine.
Well now, that all depends on what Panasonic can accomplish with the AE900. So far their initial implementation is only garnering 2050:1 contrast (quoting Cine4home, here) after calibration. The Sony garnered +3800:1 after less calibration (no filtration or CC). Unless Panasonic can announce and deliver early I doubt the Sony will be in a situation as you suggest. I also do not consider their delay 'vaporware'. I'd rather be patient and get a refine product (VBless) than live with less, IMO.

This is not to suggest the AE700 isn't worth it, or that its not a good product, but I gather most are after the Sony for reasons that the AE700 cannot deliver. If you feel strongly about the AE700 then go get it (if not already done so) and enjoy and stop consuming time knocking those waiting for something more. I'd suggest this to anyone not needing anything more than the AE700.

I think Sony announced prematurely, deliberately, knowing they could not deliver before the holidays, but wanting to lock in the interest away from competitors. A refined product is wanted, but I prefer a manufacturer to refine, announce, and deliver, in that order.

I am wasting people's time in criticizing Sony, and I do not want to imply any criticism of the customers.

As for me, I'm waiting, and loving every minute of it.

I appreciate your info on the 900, and will say that if Panny can't get the variable iris thing going better than that, well ... another thread.

Guy's no reason to be surprised ! Sony did this with the VPL-10HT,VPL-HS10 and the VPL-HS20. Never knew if it was intended but most every one of us put up with it and keep coming back for more ! Johnathan


**** Each model had it's own set of problems and I don't see any reason it won't be the same with the HS-51. But the image quality has continued to improve. ****

Many pics from A sony HS50 setup here:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v622/tonetrainer/

I am amazed that so many people without bat caves buy a product for its contrast when they are going to be throwing away a chink of that contrast because of their own environment.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am amazed that so many people without bat caves buy a product for its contrast when they are going to be throwing away a chink of that contrast because of their own environment.

My room has dark blue walls and ceiling, and gray carpet with no external lights. Would the contrast on the sony still benefit me over a panny 700?

What about your viewing behavior? Do you like any lights on while you are watching? Is 1-lumen of ambient light able to reach the screen? If even the minimal amount of ambient light exceeds the minimal amount of light the projector at hand can produce then you have lost contrast as a result.

So.. might as well wait for the 900, right?


you can always wait for the next greatest thing

Originally posted by TrickMcKaha
Or, get the 700 yesterday, at a discount.
Vaporware is always as good as you can imagine.

So just exactly how is the HS51 vaporware? It has been available for several weeks to those will to pay MSRP or a little less. I've had mine for 2 weeks so I'm still wondering how you classify it as vaporware.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am amazed that so many people without bat caves buy a product for its contrast when they are going to be throwing away a chink of that contrast because of their own environment.

Are you referring to someone in particular? Many people are buying the Sony for reasons beyond the contrast... lack of VB for example.

Originally posted by TrickMcKaha
My point is that Sony's delay between showing the HS51, and actually selling it, is so inordinate that it approaches the interval between Panasonic product cycles.
Panasonic product cycles are about 12 months. Even if we assume the middle of January for some more volumes, 4 months doesn't approach 12 months in my book. Besides the fact that your "actually selling it" is an inaccurate statement unless you count when they started selling it, not when it hit your specific price.

We see people waiting for the Sony because it is supposed to be better than the Panny 700, yet the 900 will probably be selling in quantity before the Sony hits any significant price drop. So.. might as well wait for the 900, right?
The AE700s look like they became available to some people around October 1, 2004. Not sure when they hit volumes. Some people have the HS51, but it hasn't hit volumes. Even if people have to wait until the end of January we are talking 1 1/2 months from now vs likely 10 1/2 months. I have no problem with people waiting (it makes sense for some people), but 9 extra months is not trivial to most of us. If your budget is just a little over $2000, then yes, I would say that the HS51 will probably not hit that range until about the time the new batches come out (next fall).
Originally posted by reaper
Are you referring to someone in particular? Many people are buying the Sony for reasons beyond the contrast... lack of VB for example.
And it doesn't take a bat cave. It just takes turning the lights out for the on/off CR improvement. The ANSI CR on the HS51 isn't anything special anyway and that is what is hurt by lighter walls.

--Darin

Originally posted by reaper
Are you referring to someone in particular? Many people are buying the Sony for reasons beyond the contrast... lack of VB for example. No, I am not refering to any specific individual. Why you acting so guilty, reap? :)

docphi,

I just sent you a PM.

Originally posted by docphi
Here's a tip. Buy it from Sony online and use this code to get a 10% discount at checkout. They will also send you a $200 e-coupon for future purchases.

CNETP10DAA01TJ8W80MTHJ7

Originally posted by TheFerret
Larry, that URL will not work as its session-based. It is also in the 'Education' store, not publicly accessible. Try this (http://www.bretford.com/products/pricing.asp?id=223) for information.

I am looking for some suggestions on a decent HDMI cable to use with the HS51. For those of you that have the projector already what brand HDMI cable do you use?

Thanks

Originally posted by Kevin152
For those of you that have the projector already what brand HDMI cable do you use?
The cable I use came from RAM Electronics, one of the forum sponsors. It was the cheapest 6 foot cable I could find but seems to be reasonable quality. Maybe not the best, but the image looked fine to me.

Mine shipped today from Sony Style. Thanks docphi for the coupon. I had mine on order since Oct 4th at a discounter with little hope until the new year. I am just finishing a bonus room. Carpet comes on Friday and projector should be here on Monday so this should be a very Merry Christmas. I am updating pictures in my gallery showing latest progress.

Anyone about ready to start a tweak thread on the HS51? It's my first projector, although I have had a Sony CS1 over a couple of weekends and we watched some movies in the unfinished room. I have AVIA and DVE but thats the extent of my tweaking ability.

Originally posted by TheFerret
No, I am not refering to any specific individual. Why you acting so guilty, reap? :)

Actually, mine will be placed in a completely light controlled room with dark walls.

Not guilty. I just think it's possible to focus on one benefit of this projector and gloss over some of the others.

reap

I attempted to buy the HS-51 from sony style last night. They told me the coupon was no good. The projector was expected to ship with overnight delivery to arrive the monday after x-mas. However it would be over $800 more than what I have it on order for at another location. If the coupon would have been accepted, I might have done it. He indicated if I used that coupon on an online order the order would be cancelled. It sounds like the coupon worked for several people. It might be the luck of the draw on who you talk to at Sony style.

Originally posted by theschack
I attempted to buy the HS-51 from sony style last night. They told me the coupon was no good. The projector was expected to ship with overnight delivery to arrive the monday after x-mas. However it would be over $800 more than what I have it on order for at another location. If the coupon would have been accepted, I might have done it. He indicated if I used that coupon on an online order the order would be cancelled. It sounds like the coupon worked for several people. It might be the luck of the draw on who you talk to at Sony style.

That's a bummer. I talked to an agent on the phone yesterday afternoon to verify that they had units in stock. When I was told they have some available, I told the agent I wanted to place the order via their website because I had a coupon code. However, the agent told me he could accept the code over the phone and it worked. They told me yesterday (Tues), that I should get a tracking number tomorrow and I will be disappointed if it takes a week to get something overnighted. I think the agent was fluffing the time and using the Christmas holiday as the reason for the delay.

Lonnie

Well I've gone and done it. Or at least the wife has :). Ordered an HS50 (our first PJ) from the downtown Sony Store here in Calgary. I need to start saying my prayers that it shows up for Christmas! Can't wait. Now I need to work on the cabling. Sounds like VGA is the way to go for now. Need to find a decent quality 20 footer to hook up to the HTPC and feed it through the 4" conduit I put up in the ceiling.

Originally posted by Kevin152
I am looking for some suggestions on a decent HDMI cable to use with the HS51. For those of you that have the projector already what brand HDMI cable do you use?

Thanks
Bluejeanscable.com always had good luck with all of my cable purchases from them. Thirty day no questions asked retun policy is a bonus as well.

"This setup of the Sony HS51 is similar to eco mode on the z2 right? The bulb is in low mode on the Sony. The iris is on Auto?

reaper"


reaper,

Yes, that is correct.

I ordered my HS51 from SonyStyle on December 13th, and it arrived today - December 15th - via overnight shipping ($18 extra).

I used the coupon code as mentioned earlier without any problem.

Being used the Sony 10HT projector, I was a little shocked at the small size of the box the HS51 came in.

I have it hooked up to my Satellite Sony SAT-HD200 HDTV receiver via a DVI to HDMI cable.

I hooked up my Zenith 318 Upconverting DVD player via the component cables.

Observations:

* Noticeably better black level over my tweaked and filtered 10HT. Appears much more "solid" and "deep" than the 10HT image.

* I have the unit running in "auto" iris and "low" light. I have the black adjustment option turned off.

* I have the HS51 on a video cart about 14 feet back from my 106" screen on the left side. The lense is about even with the left edge of the screen. I am using the lense shift to center the image. Works perfectly.

* The Satellite images in HDTV look very good. (However, the 10HT had good HD. . . improvement not as dramatic as with DVD but it is still noticeably better). The 1080i signal fills the whole screen. The 720p image is cropped all around. However, it does not bother me.

* Using Avia, I adjusted the contrast down to 62, Brightness is at 40. Both the color and tint was very close to "out of box" level. My color is at 48 and my tint is at 50. I have the sharpness at 35.

* With the color at 48 and tint at 50, the red is very close to 0% even. Blue is also very close to 0% even. But the GREEN is about 20% below optimal saturation. I need somebody else to validate this finding. It appears that green is low. If I push the "color" up I can get the green closer to even, but it will way over saturate my blue and red. So I have left the level where red and blue are even and green is under saturated.

* I live in "high altitude" so I had to activate that feature which increases the fan speed. However it is still much quieter than my 10HT (especially since my 10HT had a lamp hum).

* I see no dead pixels or any dust blobs or anything. (my 10HT had dust).

Overall, I am happy with the results. I have another HS51 on order from a dealer that sells them about $650 cheaper than this one. SonyStyle gives a 30 day trial, so I may still go with the cheaper unit when the time gets closer. I will see.

Feel free to ask any questions. I haven't had a chance to watch a full length movie yet, so it may be a while before I can give in depth analysis.

Regards,

I think for now I am going to use only a component cable for my STB and dvd player. later when BlueRay comes out or a decent upconverting dvd player I will run hdmi to both.

The picture shouldn't be that much degraded using a good component cable, should it?

Originally posted by ricwhite
Severe Problem with HS51:

I've been running my HS51 now for about 3 hours straight watching various HD and DVD sources.

I now see severe wavy heat waves rising up in front of the light path. It is very distracting. It distorts the image greatly.

The exhaust outlet is located on the front. But even if I put a piece of cardboard between the exhaust outlet and the lense, I still see major heat waves in front of the lense - almost as if these waves originate from within the lense assembly.

I am hoping it is a very temporary effect caused by a new lamp breaking in. If not, this is a definite deal breaker. I would have to send it back for that. This is much worse than any vertical banding or dust blobs or rainbows.

Any suggestions or observations?

I wonder if this has anything to do with the higher fan speed on the high altitude mode?

Originally posted by ay221
I wonder if this has anything to do with the higher fan speed on the high altitude mode?

I found the heat wave problem....It WASN"T the projector. I have installed a space heater that is on the floor close to where I sit. It was causing the waves NOT the projector. It's odd though, because it is quite far from the projector. In fact, It's closer to the screen than the projector. I've been using the heater for over a year and never had any waves with my 10HT. But I guess since my HS51 is cart mounted (lower), the light path angle picks up the heat waves.


Sorry for the false alarm. I'm glad it wasn't the projector.

Wow, I'm glad it's not the projector too, but at least now if I see the heat waves that I know to check exterior heat sources first.

Originally posted by Kevin152
I am looking for some suggestions on a decent HDMI cable to use with the HS51. For those of you that have the projector already what brand HDMI cable do you use?

Thanks

I just picked up a 6.5m Audioquest HDMI-1 cable. Very well made, just like the rest of their cables. Will be setting up with my HS-50 on the weekend.

originally posted by ricwhite
I hooked up my Zenith 318 Upconverting DVD player via the component cables. . . .

* With the color at 48 and tint at 50, the red is very close to 0% even. Blue is also very close to 0% even. But the GREEN is about 20% below optimal saturation.

ric:

This may be due to the color space incompatibility between the Zenith and the projector. This has been discussed often in the 318 thread as well as the thread about the new Sony upconverting DVD player. It is also explained in the WSR review of the new Sony player (which also has the color space incompatibility problem). As I understand it, this issue paradoxically causes the image to appear to be too green.

Try outputting 480 from the Zenith and see if the green problem is still present. Did you check your 10HT decoder with the Zenith (at 720 or 1080)? I would expect to see the same problem. I have it with that combination.

Some questions for you:
How does the brightness of the two units compare? And how many hours are on your 10HT lamp now?

Thanks for your observations.
Pip

Originally posted by ricwhite
I found the heat wave problem....It WASN"T the projector. I have installed a space heater that is on the floor close to where I sit. It was causing the waves NOT the projector. It's odd though, because it is quite far from the projector. In fact, It's closer to the screen than the projector. I've been using the heater for over a year and never had any waves with my 10HT. But I guess since my HS51 is cart mounted (lower), the light path angle picks up the heat waves.


Sorry for the false alarm. I'm glad it wasn't the projector.

I had the same thing happen with a register in the ceiling between the projector and the screen. Baffled me for awhile until I realized it cut in and out with the furnace.

Hello people,
I've been lurking on this thread for some time now and it's funny that, even though I'm wasn't going to upgrade my HS20 I'm still curious about the HS51. SO HERE IT IS.....I live in Grass Valley, CA, a population of about 10,000 and kinda up in the hills. It just so happens that I walked into the electronics store down the hill about 2 miles (I also used to work there) and low and behold, the HS51! I got to see HDNET's underwater snipet on the 51....and on a greyhawk screen I believe. First impressions??? It wasn't the screendoor that got me (that actually looks pretty decent) It was the brightness and contrast! I can see that it could be darker than my HS20 because of the iris, but the contrast was lack-luster to me....and YES the iris was set to auto and the contrast was actually bumped up to 95! Did the picture look good? YES, B U T it's not worth the upgrade (at this point) to me. I know I didn't get to have enough time with it and could have fiddled around with more of the settings, but I think that greyhawk screen really killed the contrast and depth.....it just look kinda dull and flat to me....in fact I just watched U-571 on DVHS on my 20 and It was awsome.
What I really wanted to see on the 51 was the eleged black level.....I just couldn't give that one a good audition...I want to see the black bars on a DVD or better yet the moria scene in LOTR to see the shadow detail....that is probably one of the only weaknesses IMO on the HS20. So I'm going to wait for next year when the D5 panels come out or wait even a year later....So far I've had 3 projectors the VW400Q, the 10HT, and the HS20...I've have upgraded every 3 years and so far all sonys. Take what I say with a grain of salt, but this is just my 2 cents....So keep your hopes up on the 51 and by all means use a high gain screen!

KBMans comments about seeing the HS51 in an electronics store, "but the contrast was lack-luster to me....and YES the iris was set to auto and the contrast was actually bumped up to 95! Did the picture look good? YES, B U T it's not worth the upgrade (at this point) to me."

Thats why I am buying this projector blind, as in having never seen it in a store. Almost every audio video store I have been in does not spend any time setting the equipment up correctly. Turning the contrast setting up to "95" surely washed out the picture and limited the contrast. Compare WSR settings and those who have given short reviews on this forum. Would anybody recommend a 95 setting on contrast?

Terrence, maybe something more aggressive in screen-type than a grayhawk is more applicable to the HS51. Some have been recommending the high-power. BTW, even Stewart says the Grayhawk is for DLP (go figure).

Originally posted by Pip
ric:


How does the brightness of the two units compare? And how many hours are on your 10HT lamp now?

Thanks for your observations.
Pip

I ran my 10HT with cinema black OFF, so it pushed up the brightness -- although I do have a red filter on the lense which tends to knock it back down some. I had about 400 hours on the bulb.

I'm running my HS51 with the "auto" iris and "low" lamp mode. Even so, the brightness is on par with my 10HT -- probably due to the fresh lamp. As it ages, I might need to manually increase brightness some.

You certainly need a dark room without ambient light to run the HS51 in this mode -- which I have. The contrast is very good. The blacks are very dark. The image appears "cleaner" than the 10HT and certainly has much more "depth."

I am also happy that the bulb life is twice that of the 10HT and about 40% cheaper. The "per hour" running cost is significantly lower for the HS51.

Why not run it in iris=auto, which will default the lamp mode to low, but then force-set the lamp to high and get what someone suggested would be the best in CR and lumens? Is this not the case?

Boy I sure would love to be able to compare a Sharp z2000 to the hs51 Saturday! I think the prices are going to be just a few $100 from each other.

Brian

I am new to this forum and in the process of setting up a home theater system in my basement. I am looking to purchase the sony hs51, panasonic s97 and denon 2805 receiver. My problem is being inexperienced and not knowing the exact way to hook this system up. I want to receive hd signal to my projector but, a sales rep stated he did not know if the denon could send the signal out if the dish signal was directed through the receiver. My projector will be located approx. 6-7 feet from the receiver and dvd player. Looking for help on type of connections to run and to what unit. Can anyone help me......

I don't think you want to send any high def video through your receiver. Only high end receivers have enough bandwidth to accomodate high def video signals. I have not read about the 2805, but I would expect that you would be losing information if you send your component signal through the receiver... even if it could pass the HDCP signal through. You should send the cable directly to the projector from the dish box or buy a seperate switch box with enough bandwidth to handle that signal. (At least this is what I have learned from this forum.)

reaper

Thanks for the reply reaper,

What type of connections would I run from the projector to the receiver for the audio and between the (dvd,receiver and projector)

Thanks...

You don't need to run anything from the receiver to the projector for audio. The projector is simply a display device.

Most people recommend running a cable from the projector to your component rack for every video input on the projector. That way, you are covered in case you need any input on the projector. So, this is probably HDMI, Component, Composite, S-video, VGA.

You need to connect those video cables from your projector to your different sources or switch boxes. So, perhaps HDMI to your satellite box, VGA to your HTPC, Component to you DVD player, etc.

Then you also need to connect your audio cables from your components to your receiver. So, perhaps optical digital audio from your DVD player to your receiver, optical digital audio from your sat box to your receiver.

Then you just run wires from your receiver to your speakers.

When using the system, you use the receiver to select which audio source... so set it to DVD and then you use the projector to select which video source... so set the projector to component input to get your DVD video.

That's a basic rundown of how most people hook it up ignoring switch boxes. Also, the recc to run all wires from the projector usually stems from the fact that it may be hard to get wires to the proj later on. If this is not the case with you, just run what you need.

This discussion probably belongs in its own thread though. I hope I helped some and anyone can correct me where I am wrong. But if you think this is going to turn into a lengthy discussion, please start a seperate thread as it is not HS51 specific information.


regards, reap

Thanks reaper,

You have been a great help. I'm going ahead and order the receiver today.....

Originally posted by TheFerret
Why not run it in iris=auto, which will default the lamp mode to low, but then force-set the lamp to high and get what someone suggested would be the best in CR and lumens? Is this not the case?

I don't believe the best CR is achieved by having the lamp set to "high." From what I have read, the best CR is achieved by the "auto" iris and "low" lamp. I think the "high" lamp mode gives a brighter image, but it reduces overall CR by about 20%. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

The "high" mode is useful, however, if you have any ambient light. It will give a brighter image at the cost of some CR.

Originally posted by usabrian
Boy I sure would love to be able to compare a Sharp z2000 to the hs51 Saturday! I think the prices are going to be just a few $100 from each other. Brian
I called Evolution and they expect inventory in a few days, but nothing definite. They did state they had several units already sold, thoug. FWIW.

We need to start a Sony HS51 Tweak thread for owners. Anybody willing to be the originator of this? I think it will be useful to have tips and tweaking information all together in one thread, including optimal settings and modes, useful modifications (filters), tweaking steps, etc. Any suggestions?

Lamp power does not affect cr.

Has anyone on the retail side received a HS51 yet? I'm told that they should be available before xmas.

Originally posted by ricwhite
With the color at 48 and tint at 50, the red is very close to 0% even. Blue is also very close to 0% even. But the GREEN is about 20% below optimal saturation. I need somebody else to validate this finding. It appears that green is low.
I see the same thing from my HTPC via Input A. Green saturation is much lower than red and blue on the Avia test pattern. I found that using RCP I could bump up the green to make it more even. Since I'm no expert on these adjustments I don't know if doing this could cause other color issues, but it did make the saturation more even on the test pattern.

I tried the same pattern using component at 480i from my old Sony DVD player and the problem seemed to be less severe, although green was still lower than red or blue. So some of the problem may be coming from my HTPC or graphics card or software, or it could be related to which connection you use.

Originally posted by KBMAN
I can see that it could be darker than my HS20 because of the iris, but the contrast was lack-luster to me....and YES the iris was set to auto and the contrast was actually bumped up to 95!
That's a really high setting for the contrast. If I go above 80 I start to see a significant shift in the color of white toward blue. I think WSR noted this effect as well. It may be possible to tune this out through the color or white balance adjustments, but with the default settings you probably don't want to go above 70-80 for the contrast. WSR used 60-70 for their setup. I doubt you would need to go higher in a light controlled room. Bumping up the contrast that high makes the image look washed out on my setup. It may increase the contrast between a black image and a white image, but will probably decrease the perceived contrast in a typical movie scene.

Originally posted by RNaval
Has anyone on the retail side received a HS51 yet? I'm told that they should be available before xmas.

Not sure exactly what you mean by "retail side", but quite a few people have been recieving HS51's they paid retail for. It seems that if you paid full retail price from Sony direct or one of the very large retailers your getting HS51's. If you ordered from a merchant with any big discount (as I did) then you dont have a unit yet and are'nt sure when you will get one.

Originally posted by ricwhite
We need to start a Sony HS51 Tweak thread for owners. Anybody willing to be the originator of this? I think it will be useful to have tips and tweaking information all together in one thread, including optimal settings and modes, useful modifications (filters), tweaking steps, etc. Any suggestions?


I seconds that!

:D

I kind of like having only one thread to look through. I don't want to have to look through two threads.

My two cents.

Lonnie

I received notice that another HS51( sold) is on the way to us from Sony. Hopefully things will start to loosen up. Good Luck

Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
I kind of like having only one thread to look through. I don't want to have to look through two threads.

My two cents.

Lonnie

That's all well and good, except when a thread is 96 pages long. I've spent a little while on it but I don't have time to scan page by page or search and get some but not all of the relevant results. It would be much easier to have a dedicated thread to refer to on tweaking, rather then sifting through one that includes reviews, extraneous comments and arguments about the projector.

Just Got an email my HS-51 will be here tomorrow. The 10% discount number worked. Thanks

Originally posted by Ohlson
Lamp power does not affect cr. Mattias, I didn't know if Auto setting for the lamp meant that the lamp was automatically be modulating the lamp output between two or three modes or not.
Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
I kind of like having only one thread to look through. I don't want to have to look through two threads. Lonnie
Lite-weight :p

Use email notification and make life easier. I third a tweaking thread.

i've seen such good reports on this projector concerning dead pixels and VB, so far no problems in these areas. what about convergence though? do any of you HS51/50 owners have convergence problems, even minute ones? i remember this being a common problem on the hs20.

eric

Well, for panel alignment I would fed a 1280x720 test pattern using a 50-70 IRE line against a 0-IRE with the line 1-pixel thick and tracing horizontally across the screen. And then another pattern tracing vertically. This would have to be via RGB input (Input A), IMO. One could substitute 1x1 pixel dot patterns, too, instead of those lines.

Originally posted by ricwhite
We need to start a Sony HS51 Tweak thread for owners. Anybody willing to be the originator of this? I think it will be useful to have tips and tweaking information all together in one thread, including optimal settings and modes, useful modifications (filters), tweaking steps, etc. Any suggestions? There was about 2250 posts in the official AE700 thread before the mad poet started the ae700 tweak thread. Give this one a couple of more days and we should be at about the same point.

I'd start one, but then I'd get labeled as a troublemaker again.

FYI - There are at least two discount numbers floating around, one expired today and the other goes till December 31st. Google will find it for you on the first search page. Hopefully this will buy a few of you guys some time.

i already sent cash to a dealer in japan for a projector, so i can't buy this one. check ebay right now! $750 under retail!

Originally posted by ericeash
i already sent cash to a dealer in japan for a projector, so i can't buy this one. check ebay right now! $750 under retail!

But with no warranty.
Most (if not all) companies won't stand by the warranty unless it's purchased from an authorized dealer.

I'm on a pre-order list for the HS51, but all the *dim* talk has me worried. My specific setup:

Dedicated room
No ambient light
Dark walls/Ceiling around screen (recessed 2' behind wing walls)
106" screen with 1.0 gain
Projector ceiling-mounted ~15' from screen
lens approx. level with top of screen
Main seating ~12' from screen
90% movies

Will the HS51 work for me, or is a higher gain screen mandatory?

What is the current view on the 720p overscan problem.

Is this likely to be corrected in a firmware upgrade, and what desktop resolution would you use for normal work if running a HCPC?

Trice, is the HS51 an upgrade projector for you, or did you order your screen in advance of learning about the ANSI lumen output being reported? What is the make/model of your screen?

Cinema Fan 12, I have serious doubts Sony will do anything--based on previous HS models with the same unresolved problem. Personally, I see no benefit running a desktop resolution beyond the panel's native resolution.

This will be my first projector, and I ordered the screen from Carada in anticipation of the Sony's arrival. Noob-stupidity? Probably. :confused: Given the specs of my room and considering it was pre-delivery without a whole lot of (dim) reviews back on the PJ when I ordered it, they recommended the CW or BW. I went with CW because of different viewing angles and didn't want to wash out the blacks. At any rate, the choice was made, so I am left with 3 options (as I see it):

1) Stay with current setup and wait for HS51 to rock my world (hence the original question)
2) Try to get Carada to go for a trade-up to BW (but that's only 1.3 gain)
3) Go after another projector

So, what do you think? And thanks in advance...

The problem is NOT the 4 sides 2.5% blanking on HDMI 720p, it's the NOT QUITE 1:1 mapping that is the real problem. It's NOT a perfect 1:1 mapping IMO. The difference is night and day compare to the 15pin VGA which does perfect 1:1 mapping after H.Size and Phase adjust.

regards,

Li On

I would wait and get the projector in and play with it in conjunction with the screen on hand. If it still seems intolerable, see if you can trade-up. I would seriously consider ridding the screen before the projector in this situation.

Originally posted by trice
This will be my first projector, and I ordered the screen from Carada in anticipation of the Sony's arrival. Noob-stupidity? Probably. :confused: Given the specs of my room and considering it was pre-delivery without a whole lot of (dim) reviews back on the PJ when I ordered it, they recommended the CW or BW. I went with CW because of different viewing angles and didn't want to wash out the blacks. At any rate, the choice was made, so I am left with 3 options (as I see it):

1) Stay with current setup and wait for HS51 to rock my world (hence the original question)
2) Try to get Carada to go for a trade-up to BW (but that's only 1.3 gain)
3) Go after another projector

So, what do you think? And thanks in advance...

I agree with Ferrett. I have the BW and I used to have the CW. There is a good bit of difference but I would see if what you have works first. In the mean time, I would contact David and see what he can do for you. It would be simple to trade out fabrics and I am willing to bet good money he will work with you very well on this. There will be an upcharge of course as the BW is a bit more expensive but IMO it would be worth it for this PJ.

Li On
What is it that makes 1:1 mapping superior. Do you get a fuzzy picture with almost 1:1 mapping?

Exactly, a fuzzy Windows desktop! Every pixel is equally.. fuzzy! The 15pin input has a perfectly sharp desktop.

regards,

Li On

Eric & Ferret,

I will definitely wait until the projector arrives before doing anything. Carada gives a 30-day satisfaction guarantee (and great customer service, which actually matters to me!), so *hopefully* I'll have the PJ up and running well before the grace period runs out.

Thanks, Richard

Li On,

I am feeding component out from my HD receiver into VGA port of HS51 via a VGA adapter. Can I still get 1:1 mapping at 720p. If so, I would like to know detailed steps how!!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Li On
The problem is NOT the 4 sides 2.5% blanking on HDMI 720p, it's the NOT QUITE 1:1 mapping that is the real problem. It's NOT a perfect 1:1 mapping IMO. The difference is night and day compare to the 15pin VGA which does perfect 1:1 mapping after H.Size and Phase adjust.

regards,

Li On

I got the Da-lite Hi-Power screen to go with my HS51. It is plenty bright. It has its pluses and minuses. I will provide my impressions after I have seen enough material with this combo.

Indranil, is this in addition to the HCMV screen? Can you do a 50-50 split and take some pics?

Trice, would definitely wait and see. A lot of people don't seem to have any dimness issues.

I would LOVE to know the exact powerstrip settings to get 1:1 pixel mapping Li On! thanks, Brian

Originally posted by dandaroy
I am feeding component out from my HD receiver into VGA port of HS51 via a VGA adapter. Can I still get 1:1 mapping at 720p. If so, I would like to know detailed steps how!!

I don't think you have single pixel 720p pattern from your HD receiver. Without a test pattern, you can never tell!

Brian, I just use a standard 720p timing. The key is a single pixel pattern (such as those in the Mokia Monitor Test program) and the fine tuning of the HS50 H.Size and Phase setting, on the 15pin VGA input that is.

regards,

Li On

Ferret,

I do not have a digital camera. However, I can tell you that the combo is very bright. Brightest picture I have ever seen. The downside is that the viewing cone is limited now. At moderate to extreme angles the pic is dimmer than HCMW. But most of the viewing is done by me and my wife, so no problem there for now. But I can see how this would be a problem if I am entertaining guests. Oh well, I guess I can't have everything. :(


Originally posted by TheFerret
Indranil, is this in addition to the HCMV screen? Can you do a 50-50 split and take some pics?

I received my HS-51 yesterday. This is my first PJ. My brother and Dad are coming over this weekend to install my 106" da-lite HCCV screen, so last night I just used a bare wall painted a beige color. The room was dark and the whole family was WOWED by the big picture (current TV is 36"). I used a Toshiba progressive scan DVD player using component cables. (I plan on hooking up my HT-PC tonight using VGA and eventually a DIRECTV HD receiver using HDMI). I set the screen size to about 110" on the wall and thought the PJ produced enough light using the cinema mode with the lamp on low. The picture looked great (remember no screen). We watched Finding Nemo with the family and I then watched the Superbit version of The Fifth Element after they went to bed.

I only noticed screen door if I got within 3' of screen. I didn't see any vertical banding. I placed the projector on a coffee table and was very impressed with the lens shift. While I was watching The Fifth Element, I tinkered with the default settings. One thing that suprised me was how subtle the difference the between watching the PJ in cinema mode between low lamp mode and high lamp mode. I was expecting a 25%-50% increase in brightness, but I thought the difference was closer to 10%. I didn't notice any dead pixels, but I didn't run any tests to find them.

The colors looked great but I don't want to go into detail until I get my screen installed.

I am very happy and looking forward to getting this projector and screen installed this weekend. The room will have ambient light during the day (I'm using a mulit purpose family room). I hope to get the family hooked with the big picture so I can improve ambient light control by ordering battery operated blackout shades and perhaps a black out curtain installed from floor to ceiling.

Lonnie

Indranil, I am being thick-headed when I ask: which combo? I think I am in the same situation as its primarily the wife and I, and the guests come last.

I think he is talking about the HS51 and Hi-Power combo. If so, Indranil, could you let me know what you mean by "moderate to extreme angles"? I just ordered my Hi Power screen and my HS51 is backordered, but I am trying to figure out which of the seats in my room will be viable FP seats.

Thanks!

Li-On, can you advise if this is possible.

My DVI cable is laid under the floor, so cannot be moved. The projector would be fed by HCPC. Could I simply buy a DVI to VGA adapter, and plug that into the back of the Sony. Or am I missing something?

Thanks

I think I am going to go find the center of the screen, which happens to be aligned with the center of the sofa, and measure the [off-axis] angle for a viewer leaning on the left/right sofa arm. This should represent a portion of the cone, which is really radial (solid) ...

Strangely enough, the arms of the sofa align themselves with the left/right edges of my 80" wide screen. Also, I am sitting back 11' (132"), give or take 3-6" depending on slouchiness. So, what does that work out to, something like 31º?

I have not seen the Carada BW, however that is the screen I earmarked for this projector. I figured the screen wasn't the best ever but introduced a tremendous value especially in the 2.35:1 department. Given that I won't have a permanent dedicated HT for a while I'm probably going to use Goo systems CRT white goo, which has theoretically higher gain than the Carada but I doubt nearly as wide a viewing cone.

I have the hi-power screen with the HS51. The high power screen is very high gain that reflects back to the light source. When I had my 10HT projector ceiling mounted with this screen, it reflected the most gain back toward the ceiling -- which is not where I was sitting.

With my HS51, it is rack mounted just behind the seating position just above eye level. The reflection is coming back at full gain right at the left side seating postion. With a high power screen, the gain drop off is pretty dramatic with any angles away from the light source. So in my situation -- since the projector is just above eye level on the LEFT side seating postion -- those sitting on the RIGHT side will have a darker image that those sitting on the left side.

Sitting on the left side of my theater room -- the screen produces a gain of about 2.4. Sitting in the center might produce a gain of about 1.8 or so. Sitting on the right side might only produce a gain of about 1.4 or so. The effect is subtle though, but you can tell that the image on the side closest to the source of projection is brighter than on the opposite side of the room.

The ideal with a high gain screen, would be to sit as close to the projected light source as possible. For most theaters, having the projector in the center right behind the seating position as close to eye level as possible will probably produce the highest gain.

In my case, I wanted the projector out of the way on the left side of my theater. I used the lense shift to center the image. But this produces the brightest image for viewers sitting on the left side of the theater room.

I hope this is not confusing. High gain screens DO produce a large gains, but the drop off is fairly dramatic with increased angles away from the light source.

Nice, so you have to have a McDonalds heat lamp right behind your head to get the maximum effect? ;)Brian

Heres more info on HiPower viewing angle. Includes a movie clip, but the poster says the camera shows much more drop off than in real life:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2238730#post2238730

I hope all this talk isn't scaring anyone away from the HiPower. I think the HS51/HiPower should be a great combo.

Originally posted by Cinema Fan 12
My DVI cable is laid under the floor, so cannot be moved. The projector would be fed by HCPC. Could I simply buy a DVI to VGA adapter, and plug that into the back of the Sony.

If your DVI cable is a "DVI-I" one (though I doubt it!), then you can use DVI-VGA adapter at both ends for a normal 15pin VGA connection.

regards,

Li On

Li On, you just gave me an idea. We need an adapter that attaches to a DVI-I cable and splits out the DVI-D (onto an HDMI) and DVI-A (onto a VGA) connectors.

I received my HS-51 today. I should have it and my 123" diagional FireHawk up by Monday. I also received an in-stock notification from BH Photo, so it looks like volumes are starting to pick-up. If anyone in the Indy area is interested in seeing or comparing projectors, I'll probably be up for it mid next week. I'll be doing a lot of home theater work this weekend!

Hah, my vendor reported that the Sony rep said no inventory for them (the dealer) until 2005. LOL

Originally posted by usabrian
Nice, so you have to have a McDonalds heat lamp right behind your head to get the maximum effect? ;)Brian

:) It's about 18 inches above my head. I haven't noticed at heat or sound problems. The projector is very quiet . . . more so than my previous 10HT. The only obvious problem is that when I get up, I get in the way of the image. But that was also true -- to a lesser extent -- with a ceiling mounted projector.

Originally posted by EHUFF


I hope all this talk isn't scaring anyone away from the HiPower. I think the HS51/HiPower should be a great combo.

I really like my high power screen with the HS51 -- especially since the projector is lower and the angle is such that it reflects well. If you ceiling mount your projector, you will turn your "high power" screen into a "low power" one -- with a gain of only about 1.5 or so from the seating position. So it all depends upon how it is mounted and where your viewing positions will be to maximize the benefit.

Is there any discernable hot-spotting with higher-gains and single lens assy systems? I only have CRT as a reference.

Carlton Bale,

Holy Moly, I live in Indy and I'd LOVE to see your projector!

reaper

Carlton Bale,

I'm in MI but I'd also be very interested in seeing your HS51.

So is anyone using the HS50/51 in a room with light colored walls/ceiling and projecting at least an 8 foot wide image? IOW, is this feasible?

----------------------------
Ron Party

Sure, just take two projectors and stack them with a SilverStar. :D

Originally posted by Ron Party
So is anyone using the HS50/51 in a room with light colored walls/ceiling and projecting at least an 8 foot wide image? IOW, is this feasible?

----------------------------
Ron Party
At 96" wide, you would proberbly need a screen like the Dalite hi power if shelf mounting or Draper m2500 if ceiling mounting.

To all in ATL area that PM'd me about seeing this projector, it arrived tonite so we should be a go! Anytime after 1pm Saturday is ok.

Thanks, Brian

Originally posted by Ron Party
So is anyone using the HS50/51 in a room with light colored walls/ceiling and projecting at least an 8 foot wide image? IOW, is this feasible?

----------------------------
Ron Party

When I had my HS51 I was projecting on a 96" wide piece of blackout cloth and the walls were beige with a white ceiling. I thought the image was very nice for a digital but in the end decided to retube my G70. I would think you would be fine with a screen that is 1.3 gain or higher. Also keep in mind that extra brightness is as simple as pushing a button on the remote which was a nice feature when watching sports.

It's been almost an hour since your last post Brian...where's your review!

;-)

c

Boy, tomorrow will be a very busy day. Xmas shopping in the morning. Over at Brian's (w/camera+tripod) in the afternoon, and then out of state tomorrow night.

Hopefully I can get some interesting screen captures.

Any CONNECTICUT hs51 owners?

If anybody in CT has a sony hs51 up and running, I would love to see it. Please let me know if this is a possibility.

Thanks!

Larry

Hit my first snag. The cable from my htpc will not fit the connection on the back of the Sony. I am not positive of the names but I believe my Barco has a DB9 input while the Sony has the standard DB15. As I do not have an hdmi cable, I am just watching dvd through component cables to a Panasonic RP56 right now, which I dont think is a fair comparison against my Barco with Geforce 6800 HTPC, TT2 and FFdshow.

i will say this right off the bat, from my normal seating postion of just about 1.5X screen width the screen door is very visible for me unless I do a bit of a defocus. If I move back about three feet it goes away. So I'd say about 1.75xwidth is where you need to be with this projector.

Its hard for me to make any definite comments at this point especially given that i cannot make fair comparisons between my Geforce 6800 htpc via vga to my Barco 808 and component from Pani RP56 to the Sony. But I do feel right away that while the black levels were close to par with a Sharp 12000 I saw today, that is just not close enough to CRT yet...There is a silkiness to the Barco picture that I am not yet seeing from the Sony.

And by the way, I was extremely unimpressed with the Sharp 12000 I saw today. I dont know what it is about dlp but it seems I cannot get used to the picture.

Brian

Originally posted by usabrian


And by the way, I was extremely unimpressed with the Sharp 12000 I saw today. I dont know what it is about dlp but it seems I cannot get used to the picture.

Brian

Brian,
If you saw the Sharp 12K at Evolution that PJ has over 1800 hours on the bulb and has never even been touch for a calibration. The closest it got was when I went in and fooled around with it a bit. I will say I was also unimpressed by it but probably for different reasons than you.

Brian
I have a lowly ATI 7500 using TT and DVI and it makes most disk almost HDTV quality and razor sharp ! With no external processing. My point is that most set top players arn't even in the same ball park as TT .

Good luck with the Geforce I could never get 1to1 with a 6800 on my HS-10. But the radeon and powerstrip provides a great picture. I think most would be surprised what the HTPC and TT 2.05 can do for a projector. johnathan

***Guess I am in strong agreement with you that the panny and the TT2 arn't a fair comparrision !***

Anyone in Minnesota interested in seeing the HS-51 in action mine is up and running on a 100" diagonal Firehawk. I have 25 hours on it now and waiting for calibration next week then I will post my two cents on this unit.

Minge, what type of calibration are we talking about?

ISF by a guy by the name of Pat Bradley who is pretty well known in some AV circles.

Okay, I didn't know if you were talking Avia/DVE through your won efforts, through you renting something like Colorfacts or purchasing SMART, or hiring someone to calibrate for you.

BTW, one does not need to be ISF to be good at calibration.

Originally posted by usabrian
Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead.

A reader of the sword of truth series?

reap

Originally posted by reaper
A reader of the sword of truth series?

reap
Is that a Pulp Fiction innuendo? :) Brian, I'll pickup a 20-25' VGA cable this morning from Fry's to bring with this afternoon.

Cool, I would go but I don't have time to get by there .
See if they have any patch cables like 5xbnc to DB15 and DB9 to DB15. Ill pay you for them.
Brian

BTW, my impressions improved significantly after playing around with it a bit last night. Vibrant colors are its strong suit. SDE is still a bit of an issue with me though at my normal seating distance.

Brian

Yesterday we completed the final setup of an HS 51. It is in a bonus room above a garage. Our client just added black out blinds in the last few days. So this was the first I had seen the HS51 in ideal conditions. Previously I used an HS20 in my home for over a year so I am familiar with it for comparison.
The HS51 is not as bright!Especially with the iris control on. I may have a problem during the day at my house when I add the 51. Light leaks through my blinds a small amount.
It does have much nicer blacks and the convergence is dead on as far as I can tell.Much much better than the HS20. This system included a 54" by 96" Firehawk. I think I will try a Studio tech 130 1.3 white screen on the next installation. A dark or gray screen is not required on this set.
Watching HD I thought it looked a little soft compared to the HS20. I double checked the focus which was fine. I concluded that the higher pixel count on the HS20 gave it an edge in HD resolution. I think I am going to miss that. No free lunch. To get the beautiful blacks on this set you lose some output. I have no idea why they went to 1280 by 720 vs. 1368 by 768 ( or something like that) but it loses some "snap" on HD images. Good luck

Originally posted by TheFerret
Is that a Pulp Fiction innuendo? :) Brian, I'll pickup a 20-25' VGA cable this morning from Fry's to bring with this afternoon.

Terry Goodkind writes a series of fantasy books subtitled "The Sword of Truth". Zed is a character in the series. His sig sounds like a line from one of those books. Just curious if he was another SoT fan. Was Zed a char in Pulp Fiction?

reaper

Its fun switching back and forth between iris off, iris on and iris auto and noting the difference. It is not subtle, the iris really works and I prefer the auto setting.

We are getting very close to acceptable black level as compared with a CRT. I think we are at least equal to a good theater's blacks now.

Brian

That's a very famous line from Pulp Fiction. You have got to see it...

Brian

Brian and Ferret,
I will be coming by today. What time will you be in Ferret so I can try and coordinate. I do not want to come in the middle of your demo. If I can come at the same time, I may be able to save Brian some grief.

I had zero luck at Fry's trying to find a DB15 VGA cable. I simply could not believe they had NONE. I looked everywhere, asked two different people, etc. and they didn't have any. I am in total shock that a place like Fry's Electronics sells so much computer stuff and didn't have some as basic as a VGA cable.

Brian, since I could not find a cable I could bring a PC with a short VGA cable that we could place beside the projector. I will be hooking up with someone at 1PM and driving directly to the meet, but its getting traffic-nasty out there are the Mall of Georgia. Someone thought it would be funny to cut an 8' section of Hamilton Mill Road out and make everyone go off-road. Idiots. And on the last shopping weekend before Xmas.

Originally posted by trice
I'm on a pre-order list for the HS51, but all the *dim* talk has me worried. My specific setup:

Dedicated room
No ambient light
Dark walls/Ceiling around screen (recessed 2' behind wing walls)
106" screen with 1.0 gain
Projector ceiling-mounted ~15' from screen
lens approx. level with top of screen
Main seating ~12' from screen
90% movies

Will the HS51 work for me, or is a higher gain screen mandatory?

Same situation. I second the question. Anyone?

reaper and djbluemax1:

I'd be glad to have you over to see the projector. I'm in the middle of remodeling the theater room, but everything should be viewable in a few days. I've taken a 3-day weekend to work exclusively on the theater room.

Originally posted by usabrian
i will say this right off the bat, from my normal seating postion of just about 1.5X screen width the screen door is very visible for me unless I do a bit of a defocus. If I move back about three feet it goes away. So I'd say about 1.75xwidth is where you need to be with this projector.
I sit 1.5X screen widths back and can also see the screen door on bright images with perfect focus. However, I can't go further back and don't find the effect of a slight defocus objectionable so am happy at 1.5X. I can tell the focus is off when viewing the Windows desktop, but don't notice it watching video. It's still much sharper than my old 7" CRT projector, which was pretty soft and fuzzy.

I think I may be available monday or tuesday night... maybe sunday night also. Anything sound possible?

reap

Hi together,

We received a demo sample of the HS50 a few days ago and I want to analyse the tuning possibilities of this machine for my coming reviews on Cine4Home.

However, the HS50 model does not come with the Image Director software (nor with the USB port!). Now I might find a solution for this but I need the Image Director software. Is there any download or would anybody be so kind to zip it and email it to me? Or does anyone know if the HS20 (v2.1) Image Director software works with the HS51 too? Could anybody try?

The older version can be downloaded from Sony JP

http://www.aii.co.jp/contents/smojs...eDirector21.EXE


Any help will be highly appreciated and would make my coming review even more detailed . I do need the image director as i have to adjust the gamma in a certain area.. Bias / Gain options dont help....

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.Cine4Home.de

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
reaper and djbluemax1:

I'd be glad to have you over to see the projector. I'm in the middle of remodeling the theater room, but everything should be viewable in a few days. I've taken a 3-day weekend to work exclusively on the theater room.

Thanks for the invitation!:) like reaper, Monday or Tuesday night would work well for me if it is OK with you. I have to work on Sunday night though.

Da-lite Hi Power with Sony VPL-HS51

I have used this combo for about 15 hours. Here are the pros/cons:


Pros:

1. No dimmness whatsoever. The pic is quite bright.
2. Punchy vibrant colors
3. I have not noticed any significant hotspotting
4. picture artifacts are magnified very little

Cons:

1. Sometimes the picture feels too bright. Might need a CC filter occasionally 2. Narrow viewing angle about 30 deg or so. After that is starts dropping off. Not a problem if 2/3 people are watching
3. Some drop in black level. In 2.35;1 movies, the blackbars look slightly less black. The actual pic contrast drop is less noticeable, except when the scene is fully black.

To me the slight drop in constrast is the olnly bothersome issue. The pic is still very good, but the constrast is not as outstanding as with the HCMW screen.
I think I still haven ot decided if I like the dimmer, more contrasty pic of the HCMW screen or the brighter more vibrant but slightly less contrasty pic of the Hi-Power. It would have been good to have both, but I will have decide on one. I will keep both screens for now and taste both flavors from time to time.

HS50
Denon DVD 3910
Denon AVR 3805
TV-Loewe Aconda
Could you advise which are the best connections between (HDMI, S-Video, etc?

Originally posted by errm
HS50
Denon DVD 3910
Denon AVR 3805
TV-Loewe Aconda
Could you advise which are the best connections between (HDMI, S-Video, etc?

HDMI would be the best way to go between the HS50 and 3910, just make sure you have the latest firmware version for your 3910. Check the Denon 3910 owner's thread if you need to know more.

Originally posted by Cine4Home
Hi together,

We received a demo sample of the HS50 a few days ago and I want to analyse the tuning possibilities of this machine for my coming reviews on Cine4Home.

However, the HS50 model does not come with the Image Director software (nor with the USB port!). Now I might find a solution for this but I need the Image Director software. Is there any download or would anybody be so kind to zip it and email it to me? Or does anyone know if the HS20 (v2.1) Image Director software works with the HS51 too? Could anybody try?

The older version can be downloaded from Sony JP

http://www.aii.co.jp/contents/smojs...eDirector21.EXE


Any help will be highly appreciated and would make my coming review even more detailed . I do need the image director as i have to adjust the gamma in a certain area.. Bias / Gain options dont help....

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.Cine4Home.de

Ekkehart,
Hopefully, you will get a response to your request. Wish I could help you, but I am waiting patiently (not really) for any word on my preordered HS51.
Take care,
Mark

I wrote earlie that I tried to order on sonystyle and was tole the coupon was not good. Today I ordered and 2 day shipping is free, although I still went with overnight. Also, they took the 10% off coupon. My suspicions are confirmed. I should have just hung up and called back immediately last time. No we see if it actually gets here. I haven't yet cancelled my discount order. I'll probably wind up with two knowing my luck! If the sonystyle one does not come before new years(supposed to be here in two days) I will cancel it.

Finally got my HS-51 setup yesterday after having to postpone thanks to a garbage aftermarket mount that the dealer said would work (yeah right) and misjudging how longer HDMI cable I needed.

I didn't do my usual cal run with DVE, rather I just made sure as the WSR article on the HS51 suggested turning off the black level control. I will do a proper cal today. Initial oberservations were very good and a huge leap from my previous 12HT. Also, the scaling issue with HDMI out of my Pioneer 969avi was not that bigger issue for me on my 120" screen.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TheFerret
Is that a Pulp Fiction innuendo? Brian, I'll pickup a 20-25' VGA cable this morning from Fry's to bring with this afternoon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Terry Goodkind writes a series of fantasy books subtitled "The Sword of Truth". Zed is a character in the series. His sig sounds like a line from one of those books. Just curious if he was another SoT fan. Was Zed a char in Pulp Fiction?

reaper

Wow, I find it practically astonishing that someone on a home theatre forum has not seen Pulp Fiction. That's one of the most identifiable lines in the film. I'm also amazed someone would draw a parallel to an obsure fantasy book series instead.:)

Yes
Please get Image director 2 to Cine4Home so that he can tweak the hs50 and find a way for us side scuffed europeans to find a way to use this software.
Why did they ever leave it out of the package, That is beyond my comprehension.

Today, usabrian offered to play host for the audition of his recently acquired HS51 projector. My first react to the forum in general was that I did not find this projector to be dim on Brian's 106" wide screen, but in fact I found it to be too bright. This with the iris in auto mode and the lamp on low. The net result to my eyes was a rather high black level and an overall elevation of brightness that appeared (to me) to fade colors a little.

The reaction in one I find analogous when one plays 0-IRE black material on a display set for 7.5-IRE blacks. Essentially, the blacks get clipped and LCD gray-ish blacks result. Since I did not know how the unit was setup in terms of grayscale and CC (D65), I assumed the near-worse case scenario.

After watching scenes from Spiderman 2 and the reds being portrayed, I knew it would be difficult to compare to what I am use to seeing in terms of reds (if you have ever seen reds from NEC you know what I mean). But this was only a result of what I think was an overall condition of too many lumens, and this from what I think is on a screen that is low in gain (or none at all).

One of the things I could not get out of my mind was the bars on the top/bottom that were outside the movie area but inside the DVD's 16:9 footprint. Throwing an Avia disk in easily showed the basement BL, which I would think would need to be commanded down to a more acceptable level post CC calibration. We even switched back and forth between the HTPC/TT and the Panasonic RP56 using its Faroudja for deinterlacing (and toggling it on/off).

After about 30-minutes of watching scenes from Spidey, I asked about setting up an A-B comparison between Brian's Barco 808 air-coupled CRT and the Sony. I figured we had two copies of the movies and two potential sources, but fate did us in and something happened to Brian's Barco--I hope its not serious as I would feel really bad as I made the A-B suggestion.

Anyway, we then focused on HDTV via an older Zenith HD STB with DirecTV. We put on the Steelers game (CBS HD 1080i) and compared the 720P and 1080i signals. My god did this projector come alive! Even with nine (9) canned lights and six (6) sconces on in the room the picture just looked terrific! The color, the punch, the perceived blacks were all right there. In fact, the work plasma came to my mind at how punchy and bright this projector can be if we were to dim the lights or shut them all together.

So, I do not know what all of the 'dim' situational parameters were for those not pleased with the level of brightness out of this projector. I did see SDE at 1.5X, but it was not distracting, and certainly not annoying to me like DLP RBE through the HD2 generation. At about 1.6-1.7X I no longer observed SDE and these were with sharpest focus. Also, I observed no FPN or VB in the material offered. Is this because I am blind? Was this because of inappropriate material? Or maybe this was because of the projector. I do not know as I did not get the chance to play certain material that might have best-tested these conditions.

I did not take any screen captures. Please let me explain. I felt that if I were to take some pictures I would first need to document both a 0 and 100 IRE full-field patterns to illustrate the range for a fixed exposure. The human eyes are a lot better at non-linear lighting conditions and can handle dynamic changes relatively easy. A still camera can do neither of these with proficiency.

As such, had I tried to document a frozen image I would need to expose for the image to represent what my eyes observed. But then I would need to capture a second time to expose correctly for the portions of the screen outside of the image content area (top/bottom bars) for an accurate representation of BL with image in center. I think this goes back to my reservations about screen captures in general, and these would not have been complimentary to DVD material.

And before I could go any further my wife reminded me we had to leave, we had additional shopping to do before she left for the evening (she's going to Auburn for the weekend). Thus, it was a short but pleasant visit and I'd like to thank Brian and his wife for entertaining us. BTW, Half-Life 2 also looked terrific on this projector. So, the only thing that didn't look terrific was SD/DVD and that is just weird.

Anything technical like player settings, projector configuration, etc. should be directed to the host, please. I really wish I had a meter there to measure the lumen output of the HS51.

Ferret: That is what I have kept saying, I do not find it as dim as people have been hinting at. I have only seen it on 1.0 gain screens from Dalite and I have not felt a big need for high gain screens with it. It is dimmer than my current DLP, the BenQ 7800, and its dimmer than AE700 etc. But not with a huge margin, which only makes me feel that some people have recived units that somehow are defect.

I do have the possibillity for full light control and will be painting my walls in a darker tone of grayish and with a dark wall behind the screen. I actually think I will go for a 1.0 gain in that situation since it maximizes the contrast and I dont feel that I will have a brightness issue since I have seen it in less perfect situations with some ambient on 1.0 without feeling overly dim.

Wow that was an incredibly detailed review there Ferret, right down to the number of can lights I have.

Just to clarify, the screen is 96-in wide, not 106-in.

A few people came over after you and thought that the image was slightly, and I should really highlight that word, slightly dim. So just goes to show...I definitely do not thing the image is too bright. Its a bit brighter than my Barco 808 but not a ton.

I think it is dangerous to base opinions on any one or two dvd's. The problem I am continuing to see is that dvd's are not all properly released at reference contrast and brightness levels so you end up tweaking for each. I played Moulin Rouge, LOTR-ROTK, and The Hulk from different sources after you left and the picture was terrific but each required a slightly different level of brightness or contrast to look right to me. I am really surprised the Pani RP56 picture was as good as it was by the way. It held up real well against my htpc.

Some things to keep in mind as well, I have not learned the ins and outs of this thing yet. Also, my htpc was calibrated to go with my CRT so powerstrip, nvidia control panel and/or theatertek probably needs a bit of adjustment.

Finally, we did not do HDMI so I have not had a chance to give that a go. Additionally, I doubt we had pixel perfect through the HTPC. I do not even know how to begin getting that accomplished. Being a crt guy, I am used to just changing resolutions and moving on.

Brian

usabrian
so how does the pq compare to the 808?

So far it seems I am the loan wolf of the group today who thought that the screen door was an issue with this projector. I don't know if it is because others are used to digital and I am used to CRT but I expect a buttery smooth image and inside 1.75 screen widths I start to get a peek a boo screen door effect and a noise over the picture. Moving back to 2xwidth this all goes away and its a beautiful silky smooth image.

I can really see where by having a higher pixel density we will be home free. When someone comes out with a 1920X1080 projector with dynamic iris for a reasonable price nobody will ever need CRT anymore.

While the blacks are not true black, I am fairly pleased with where it is. But its not quite there yet. Subjectively speaking I feel the blacks are about 85% of a good 8-in CRT.

Brian

Brian, you are not a lone wolf. Please keep in mind that when I watch DVD's on my 7" CRT I am running 480 progressive lines on that 7" CRT, which means I see scan-lines. In fact, if I try hard enough, 1080i becomes a problem, but this is probably due to the what 1080i is being interpretated.

I looked at today's experience as a worse-case scenario, meaning through color-correction calibration, etc. this could easily clear 7" CRT's. I would love to get this HS51 in the same room as my CRT and compare the illuminated raster producing non-black conditions and compare that to the HS51's bars.

Thanks for correcting me on the screen width. Your screen is 96" wide, which is 16" wider than mine. So, when can I come back over and play some more? :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
Was this because of inappropriate material?
...
And before I could go any further my wife reminded me we had to leave
What inappropriate material did you get to see? :)

I think some people should try a salmon or orange filter if they have lumens to spare. This will reduce blue and green, but moreso green and could help the CR.

--Darin

Well if it were Monday night maybe one might could see some "inappropriate" material at my home theater. I think it was HDNET or something similar that has begun showing soft porn past midnight Monday (Guy's Night Out) and calling it an "educational program."

Brian

LOL. I think I need to explain that phrase, Dain. What I meant was material appropriate for easily identifying FPN/VB. I was calling for Bikini Destinations, but I knew it was too early for HDnet to being showing that.

I do think had I not had to leave I could have easily spent 4-5 more hours over your house Brian. One can never beta a projector in so little time as a couple of hours.

I too was able to drop by Brian's and look at the Sony. First of all, I appreciate Brian being such a great host. I do not think I could ever just give an open invitation on the internet because my wife would kill me.

Anyway, I need to give some persective. I currently own the Epson TW500(Yamaha LPX-510 OEM). I have had the Panasonic AE700 in the same room with the Epson and chose the Epson hands down. I also have owned a Sharp 9K for quite a while and then upgraded to a 10K but sold it quickly because of the lack of control on the unit when using the DVI input. Please be aware that I have been told I am very picky about my PJs. What I will write is going to be on the anal end of a compliment.

Upon entering the room I was immediately a bit disappointed in the PJ. I had read so much here and had such great expectations that I just thought the PJ would blow me away. I was one that thought the PJ was a bit dim at first. What I thought was odd was that on some scenes the PJ was perfect then on others which I would exect to have about the same light output it would appear too dim to my eyes. I have to attribute this to the iris. I am not positive that it wasn't showing the proper light levels for those scenes but it just seemed to vary too much to my eyes to be in the source or dvd. I too noticed what Ferret saw. The picture was a bit washed out. The black material on letterboxed movies was definitely not as black as I had expected. The colors on the PJ were no as good as what I have been used to. Now after watching it for a while, I just had to chalk all this up to Brian not having the time to give the unit a proper tweeking. This is understandable as he has had strange people milling in and out of his home all day. Now on to other things. I did have Brian play a scene to look for shadow detail from ROTK. I immediately saw that the PJ did have better shadow detail than my Epson. After coming home though, I played the same scene and saw practically the same shadow details. The Sony is better but it just wasn't the leaps and bounds I had expected. I also did not see any vertical banding on this PJ. I did look for it in some familiar scenes and I would say it is on par with my Epson on which I have to study the image very hard to find any. I have been told I am very sensitive to VB as many of my friends cannot see it when I am proclaiming it is there. The SDE is there on this PJ as it is on any other LCD when inside the proper viewing distance. It is not any worse than any others I have seen except for the Panny AE700 which is as good as it gets in this area with the Smoothscreen. SDE will not be an issue at all if you live by the rules. Otherwise the Sony will not improve this area over any of the other LCDs. There is one other thing that bothered me about the PJ and it was the artifacts in the picture. There seem to be some "edge enhancement" going on. I cannot attribute this to the PJ but when Brian switched sources to get rid of it I still noticed a good bit of ringing. Once again, there could be something turned on in the PJ's menus that should not be.

Overall, I would say the Sony is a fine PJ and should work for many people. I would be very satisfied with it if I was coming from a different direction. I know I have picked on it a bit but you have to realize my perspective. If you are going in thinking that this is the end all you will be disappointed. Many are expecting this $3500 PJ to bring LCDs to the level of the better DLPs. This Sony is not the equal of the better DLPs. All CR measurements aside, from what I saw today, it will not do blacks as well as the better DLPs and this includes the Benq 8700+. Please realize I am not an LCD or DLP fan. I have owned both and currently own an LCD. Both have their flaws and strengths. I just want the best PJ for the money I can find. From what I have seen, I will have to spend a bit more on a good DLP but the differences should be worth it. I am not here to pit my Epson versus the Sony but I wouldn't trade the two of these units either. This was confirmed by another AVS member that followed me home and looked at my setup. The minimal true contrast differences are not worth it. All other things on the Sony at best can only equal the Epson. The other member thought my Epson was a DLP. He made the statement that the Sony just cannot compete with these better DLPS. I had to tell him that we were watching an LCD. I am in the PJ market. I may have a bit of extra cash at the end of the year and want end my PJ search for a while until 1080p gets down into the mainstream's price range. I really thought if the Sony was as good as I expected I could work around the 720p blanking issues. When you throw this into the mix the Sony is officially off my list.

One other thing I failed to mention was noise level. The Sony is by far the quietest PJ I have heard, or not heard. I was amazed that I had to put my ear up to it to make sure a fan was actually running. This is one area that it has going for it over anything I have seen (or heard). Also again, thanks Brian for the invite. My comments were in no way directed at you as a slight and hopefully they will not be misconstrued that way. I know you are on a PJ search and the Sony may be that one that replaces the CRT for you. Good luck.

Brian, what make and model is your screen?