awtryau89: making a statement such as "the Sony just cannot compete with these better DLPS" when you're admitting you have no idea how the HS51 was calibrated is going a bit far as I'm concerned.

If you've seen the HS51 properly calibrated then I believe such a statement could be valid from your point of view but making such a statement that the HS51 is at best as good as your Epson may not be close to reality if your Epson is calibrated and the one HS51 you saw is not calibrated (and was not getting its source material from the same make/model DVD player you're using).

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
awtryau89: making a statement such as "the Sony just cannot compete with these better DLPS" when you're admitting you have no idea how the HS51 was calibrated is going a bit far as I'm concerned.

If you've seen the HS51 properly calibrated then I believe such a statement could be valid from your point of view but making such a statement that the HS51 is at best as good as your Epson may not be close to reality if your Epson is calibrated and the one HS51 you saw is not calibrated (and was not getting its source material from the same make/model DVD player you're using).

Wayne,
Agreed! Take my comments at there worth. I can only go by what I saw.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Today, usabrian offered to play host for the audition of his recently acquired HS51 projector. My first react to the forum in general was that I did not find this projector to be dim on Brian's 106" wide screen, but in fact I found it to be too bright. This with the iris in auto mode and the lamp on low. The net result to my eyes was a rather high black level and an overall elevation of brightness that appeared (to me) to fade colors a little.

What kind of screen material is it? and by really meaning 96 inches wide, your talking about a size of 110" diagonal?

ay221, I am not really sure. I just got the impression it had little or no gain to it.

i believe what I saw on the HS50 (D65 cal) should be applicable to this discussion ...
it was on a ST130 & driven by Marantz 9500 DVDP over HDMI - shop owner admit a few pixel lines maybe missing but you won' t notice it until you put two side by side. Pitch black room, bulb 4 hours, 82", 720p

Beautiful colors (better than many DLPs, even LCDs) and very, very clean image. Only machine that is in this class for pretty colors is SIM2 HT500E XTRA (but SIM2 has better contrast and brighter on 1.5 screen), better than Mit HC2000. Better freshtones : now I see in chapter 2 of Gladiator that people's faces now have red hint and the fires have also red hint also, more life like (no DLP shown this before). Contrast are referenced from very dark black reference level unseen from any DLP (HC2000, HC900, Z12K, Infocus 4805, 7205), very good; but shadow clarify in dark scenes is a different matter, not very clear (so maybe you will say not good contrast). Also very quiet ....

Van Helsing 'well look up to sky' scene, resolved all rocks but thought shadow detail less clear than HC900 or EPSON Dreamio or Infocus 7502, BenQ 8700+ (not as bright perhaps). Went home and checked, this is similar (more truthful) to the DVD original using Sony CRT HDTV HD800 (very dark here too).

But beginning of this chapter when the ship at sea switched to snow mountains, the brightness blow up the whole image so for 1-2 seconds as whole scene is white out (crushed white levels at high IREs) - so I think near the brightes whites are off, perhaps red overpushed.

Biggest downside is I think this projector will be a little dark at 100" (IMHO, not tested yet), at 82" it is bright enough and simply beautiful.


I've been seeing projectors last 2 months, once every 2 - 3 days

Just get the damn projector and let's party! I'm getting a new projector in a few days! :D

regards,

Li On

just found out i should receive my HS50 tomorrow. swweeeetttt! i also plan to buy a smart 3, but might not be for a month or so. i'll post impressions soon. now where's that tweak thread?

eric

Originally posted by OzHDHT

Wow, I find it practically astonishing that someone on a home theatre forum has not seen Pulp Fiction. That's one of the most identifiable lines in the film. I'm also amazed someone would draw a parallel to an obsure fantasy book series instead.:)

I've seen it! Sheesh, people! I was just never a huge fan of the movie and didn't memorize any lines. I think I saw it once many many years ago.

reap

pulp fiction=greatness! nuff said.

but hey, i got another theory, and i might be late with as i've tried my best to keep up with this massive thread, but was thinking maybe one of the reasons sony went with a lower wattage bulb in the 50/51 compared to the 20 was the fact that lower wattage = less heat. less heat = less fan speed and that = lower fan noise. so the lower wattage bulb might be one of the reasons the hs50/51 is so quiet. am i late on this?

eric

I would also like to add that this projector is quiet, too. In fact, had it not been for the light coming out of the lens assy, or my noting the illuminated Sony logo on top of the projector, I would not have known it was even on.

Of course, I am comparing this dB level to that of my less-than-quiet CRT. :)

Ferret,

After your viewing the hs51, what screen gain would you suggest. I am considering the da-lite cinema or carada brilliant white.

Thanks,

Larry

I thought the "Zed's dead..." line was from Killing Zoe.

Larry, there are things to consider in that proposed question. First, what level of brightness I like may not be what you like. For instance, maybe you like images 10x bright (grand exaggeration, but its still on point). As such, what I would go with may be completely inappropriate for your personal needs.

Secondly, I do not have a point of reference. I am waiting to hear back from Brian on the make/model screen he is using, and thus learn of the gain therein. I know the physical size of the screen he is using, but I do not know if its a DIY, name-brand, etc.

Thirdly, without knowing what this projector will present under the condition I would own it (calibrated to D65, filtered for acceptable BL), I do not know where to start on how much gain I will need to make up for any losses in the above to get back to my personal acceptance for how much light needs to hit my eyes.

I know, I know, this helps you not at all. I am sorry. I am thinking, though, that the screen that I have will be completely inappropriate as its a lot more diffusive than directional, but it was bought with a CRT in mind. Thus, I will need to experiment with other materials, and listening to some others I think maybe the Dalite high-power might be an example of an appropriate screen.

Now, you have to ask yourself how many lumens (or ft-L) do you like, for whatever size screen, for the strongest performance variable you are most interested in. You may not care about absolute color accuracy (D65), or contrast, etc., and anything I may suggested may skew the value in anything I learn and in turn suggest.

God, I sound like an insurance liability writer, don't I?

Originally posted by Tweakophyte
I thought the "Zed's dead..." line was from Killing Zoe.

Fabienne: Whose motorcycle is this?
Butch: It's a chopper, baby.
Fabienne: Whose chopper is this?
Butch: It's Zed's.
Fabienne: Who's Zed?
Butch: Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.

Well I had a night to sleep on it and I reread my post from yesterday. I still stand by everything I said but after rereading I do not think I was clear about my overall intentions and directions. It is best put this way:

If I did not already own the Epson, I would be all over the Sony as my next PJ.

You see I am looking for a significant improvement over what I have now and the Sony just does not represent that. Better only in one area, equal in some areas and worse in others. With the extra cost I would have to put into the Sony to get it to the level of the Epson, I am looking at over $1000 in difference in what I have in the 2 PJs. (I got a great deal on my Epson and I have a Sony on order for approximately 80% of retail that will be here next week) I would want to have the unit calibrated, filtered and set up properly. When I factor that in, I just cannot justify it. Now with that being said, I could be completely happy with the Sony if I were starting from ground zero and there are many that will be.

The screen is a 54X96 "DaLite Perm-wall" Beyond that I know not as it was thrown in with my CRT when I purchased it and I did not ask that question. If someone knows a way to determine its gain (like a tag on the back or something else) let me know. Its definitely white though so at least a 1.0 gain.

Brian

Ferret,

Thanks for the reply.

And I appreciated all the great comments you made about the hs51. So completely positive and glowing. Since, I have one on order, I believe everything you say. :-)

Larry

Is anyone with the 51 having problems with the vertical adjustment slowly moving up or down on their screens? I am having to recenter the picture on my screen evry couple of days. Any sugestions?

Hmm, that is an interesting problem. Is this the lens shift you are talking about, bcolon, or something else?

Yes, it is the lens shift.

Hmm, that is interesting. I did not notice the lens shift shifting on its own during the couple of hours I was over at Brian's place. Sounds like a screw used to keep the movement taunt is a problem. Are you at any extreme on the lens shift?

I just wanted to put my two cents in....If you never have seen an LCD projector before and this was your first projector, you would be ecstatic.

Brian's favorite disc for color was "Moulin Rouge" and it looked astounding.
Blacks were black, colors were vibrant, very sharp as we could see every pore on the faces.

I've seen an AE700 and the Sony was more satisfying to me.

I went to see Eric's (awtryau89) Epson and will admit that it looked very very good. Eric's setup seemed to be perfect. If I were Eric I wouldn't be considering another projector unless it were 1920x1080. But some guys love to shop. Not enough difference.

Brian's HT was extremely nice, his sound and butt-bumpers really added to the experience. I hope he takes pictures for everyone to see. He's speakers were very very nice. You could tell that an engineer(BRIAN) had helped with the setup. His lighting was excellent and with some dimmed lighting, you still had a bright and vibrant picture. This is good news for Super Bowl fans.

The only thing I noticed worth commenting on both Brian's HS51 and Eric's Epson was that with a 2.35 film with blanking at top and bottom, I really want a mechanical matte to suck up the black bars on the top and bottom.
If someone can refer me to a way to achieve this, please PM me with your ideas.

Brain's seating distance was 11-12ft in the front and seemed about perfect to me with a 96" screen. I really don't know if 106" wouldn't be too big from the front row.

Eric was at 12-13 ft with a 106" Carada(sp), and it looked perfect. Both of these comments are in reference to SDE.

At any rate, I saw two projectors yesterday that I would be very proud to own. Both were LCD 16x9 native.

Thanks again for the hospitality. This forum is great!

Originally posted by CinePost

The only thing I noticed worth commenting on both Brian's HS51 and Eric's Epson was that with a 2.35 film with blanking at top and bottom, I really want a mechanical matte to suck up the black bars on the top and bottom.
If someone can refer me to a way to achieve this, please PM me with your ideas.


Some great comments/reviews starting to come in now. I'm interested in hearing about screen size configurations as well so I'd love it if we could post those here rather than via PM's.

Anyone thought about a constant height screen setup to eliminate the top and bottom black bars with this PJ? Then you just have to deal with bars on the side. I guess no power zoom really puts a spanner in the works on that.

Ronin, people have been posting in this thread, and also in the dedicated thread in the screen's forum. :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
Ronin, people have been posting in this thread, and also in the dedicated thread in the screen's forum. :)

Right, that's why I asked we not switch to using PM's. I'm really looking for discussion on this PJ and a constant height setup. The other thread in the screens forum was just people listing their screen size, material and room descriptions.

What zoom is required to achieve a constant height setup? If this PJ will do it, what screen sizes would work?

It is becoming clear that these projector manufacturers are differentiating their projectors by the options they put on them. Options that don't equate to several 1000 dollars by the way. If the HS51 had a mechanical lens shift it would be very easy to accomodate a screen masking system that involved only either a black shade pulling up or dropping down.

Brian

You know the only thing holding me back from keeping the HS51 right now is the visibility of the screen door and artifacts that go with that at my normal seating distance of 1.5 widths. I really have to wonder just what the combination of this projector with the IMX pixel processing lens would be like?

Brian

Brian, I asked this in the IMX thread about a month ago. I really wanted to know. When I first walked into your theater, I didn't notice any screen door, but then again my eyes certainly hadn't enough time to adjust from the sunny outdoors to the darkish theater environment.

When my wife got up and left the room (to socialize), I started to walk forward to take her seat in your first row. As I passed the arm of the chair I just happen to look up and peek-a-boo there was the SDE. BUT, this is not enough to keep me from possessing the projector as its a condition of annoyance.

Those that know me on AVS know I have a problem with RBE (someone affectionately labeled rainbow effect RBE). So, I wonder as I get older if I can be more tolerant. Yeah, my wife just laughed at that comment about me being tolerant. Anyway, I would be curious about the IMX, but I do not know if I am willing to spend money for that curiosity (what's the return policy?) to open my wallet.

I think the smoothscreen technology is pretty much like what IMX does, some sort of optical bifurcation (???).

So, Ferret, what are you thinking wrt a purchase? You've seen it now and you know about screen door and 720p blanking. Would you buy it?

reap

Honestly, I left Brian's home yesterday thinking I may in fact cancel my order. Of course, this is before what my wife told me (she likes it). I do have a very big question at this moment that I need to ask some HS50/1 owners though:

It was already discovered that the blanking condition for 720P material on the Component and HDMI inputs exist. But, Input A can be either RGB or YPbPr. Can someone feed the Input A with a YPbPr 720P signal and tell me if the blanking is on this, too?

Reaper, I did have concerns going over to Brian's home yesterday regarding the 'dim' comments several people made. What I observed was completely contrary. On one hand I was looking for maximum CR regardless the hit taken on the lumens. Hey, I'm a CRT guy, right? But, the dimness others commented about wasn't there for me, and instead of being concerned about brightness there is a concern as to how well calibrated, color corrected, and lumen-reduced the HS51 can get to my 7" CRT.

I was thinking about all of this in the brief moments the wife and I were driving away from Brian's home. And then the wife chimed in and said, "well, does this projector have to be all things for every viewing activity? I liked the projector!" I stated that this was an exchange, one CRT for one digital. She then said, "well, I just thought you were buying another projector. Unless you lose your job, I see no reason why you should sell any of the [two] projectors."

I was born and raised to believe that a wife was suppose to be the cop in the husband spending behavior. Someone that could keep a man from buying like crazy. She's not doing this. In fact, she's doing the opposite. So, it should be no surprise that I have not yet canceled my order. Not yet.

I wish Brian had the time and interest to bring his HS51 over to my place. I would really like to see what it would be like in my bat cave. hint, hint, nudge, nudge

Originally posted by TheFerret

I was born and raised to believe that a wife was suppose to be the cop in the husband spending behavior. Someone that could keep a man from buying like crazy. She's not doing this. In fact, she's doing the opposite. So, it should be no surprise that I have not yet canceled my order. Not yet.

I wish Brian had the time and interest to bring his HS51 over to my place. I would really like to see what it would be like in my bat cave. hint, hint, nudge, nudge

My wife finally drew the line at 2 projectors at a time. Of course I asked her if she wanted another CRT or digital after I sell my XG and I'm only left with the G70. For some reason she never answered :)

I would be interested in your viewing experience in your room as well. I tried my HS51 again after I painted the walls deep burgundy and the ceiling gray and I felt it hurt the apparent contrast a little. The black bars on 2.35 movies were more visible and really dark scenes like space shots appeared more gray than before. Of course this all needs to be kept in perspective since I didn't spend as much time tweaking as I would have if I knew I was keeping it instead of the G70.

GScott
How does the black bars appear on the G70? How does the bright scene contrast compare to the HS51?

Originally posted by usabrian
You know the only thing holding me back from keeping the HS51 right now is the visibility of the screen door and artifacts that go with that at my normal seating distance of 1.5 widths. I really have to wonder just what the combination of this projector with the IMX pixel processing lens would be like?

Brian

If these screen shots are typical results, the IMX may be a winner. I believe they have dropped the (AVS?) price to $495!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468350&perpage=20&highlight=IMX&pagenumber=4

I would expect the results to be more dramatic than in Byte's pictures as DLP already has a higher fill factor. But on the same thought, I didn't see anything justifiable, money-wise, for DLP's use.

So what is the typical lumens level on low lamp setting and auto iris around 300/350? and what is it for high lamp?

Any word on the Indy HS51 show, Carlton? Monday or Tuesday or "maybe later"?

reap

This Sony is not the equal of the better DLPs. All CR measurements aside, from what I saw today, it will not do blacks as well as the better DLPs and this includes the Benq 8700+. Please realize I am not an LCD or DLP fan.
"Posted by Eric"

Even though posted quite a way back and several comments have sprung up since, I think the above is quite valid from what I have seen with this projector.

If some of you will pardon me from saying, I think there was way too much expectation with this model and going on the pre-release spec., many have jumped in and ordered sight unseen, which has made this thread jump ahead more-so than any other recent release projector.

Sure, it is good and an advance in the LCD field, but is it as good as what was expected?

Fishhooks
there are as more posts from HD2+ DLP owners saying that the HS51 has blacks as good. As far as the 8700+ comparison, here is the quote from the Projector Central review

"When viewed side-by-side with the DLP-based BenQ PE8700, with a contrast rating of 2500:1, the HS51 does appear to to deliver a visibly higher contrast image" :)

Houston...

My comments are more of a general point of view from someone not being specifically allied to either camp.
I look in on this thread only once every few days and it would not take any by-stander to reach the same conclusion.
This thread is very much similar to the Infocus 57 one in it's early days, whereby the comments were tending to verge on hysteria, particularly from the prominent dealers who I don't think ever slept at night whilst maintaining a vigil on the thread.
In the end it was generally and correctly acknowledged (from most) that whilst the 57 was indeed a "light canon" with a strong and definite good picture, it has probably the worst contrast of all the similar projectors in it's class.

I am considering the Hs-50 as my next projector upgrade. According to projector Central HDMI port is the best way to go but, as discussed many times, pixel cropping of 2-3% occurs when using this port.

Just so I can imagine this , if I have a 45"x80" screen and 3% is cropped does this means 3% of 45" = 1.35" and 3% of 80= 2.40" giving a new usable dimension of 77.60" x 43.65"? Is this correct, or is the cropping more significant than this.
Can someone give an example of screen size and the change in inches per side when switching from component to HDMI.

I hope the next generation of projectors have 2 or more HDMI inputs, as I am sure Im not alone with at leat 2 sources using this connection, DVD player and HD Satellite. My current plan is to use an IR DVI 2x1 switch and run (1) good quality 30' DVI-HDMI cable to projector to get 2 devices using this port so at least ther is no resizing between sources.

Thanks

Projector Central has also mentioned in their article that with the DVDO scaler there is no overscan at 720p via hdmi. This has not been confirmed. We could simply ask Evan to confirm and provide the settings in the scaler.

Curious, has anyone had a chance to see the HS51 on a Silverstar screen?

One thing I have noticed the past few days is this...with movies that fill my 16:9 screen entirely the black looks truly black. When there are bars top and bottom you see that the black is not truly black yet and this hurts "perceived" contrast.

Just looking at the playwright's hair (Teluse?) in the first part of Moulin Rouge it looks truly velvety black on this projector. And I was looking closely for this. I watched Shrek 2 last night and it was so 3-dimensional as to be just unreal. But even sitting at 2X screen widths while the picture looked smooth and buttery but then...just every so often I would see some sort of noise in white areas in small patches. Just enough and what I am clearly seeing is the noise that SDE imparts on the image. This is just a failty in LCD technology given the closeness, or lack thereof of the pixels. Its sort of a "peek-a-boo" effect and you would see it I suppose about as often as one with a DLP sees rainbows. Clearly, each technology has its weaknesses.

Brian

BL is not the end-all be-all for some (me). While one can certainly beat any projector to have very little light with filtration, the idea is to get their without losing much CR or crushing blacks/shadow-detail. And DLP does have a couple of things going for it (as well as a couple of things going against it), like fill-factor and ANSI CR.

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
GScott
How does the black bars appear on the G70? How does the bright scene contrast compare to the HS51?

I don't notice the bars on the G70. I have velvet masking around the screen that absorbs the light from the AKB line. The only time the I notice anything is on really bright scenes and then it's more of the screen being visible than seeing the black bars.

I prefer the bright scene contrast on the G70. I've noticed that on certain scenes with the HS51 as the material got brighter the picture would get flat and very 2D looking. The same scene on the G70 had much more depth and looked more 3D to me.

I will say this. Even if you use masking for the bars if you are of the type like me you may still find yourself looking left/right off the screen for your black reference. Even in the realm of great perceived blacks I find myself doing this.

I am going to try an experiment. I am going to put some small r, g, b Xmas lights around the perimeter of my screen. This will offer some funny illumination on that flat-black wall. I want to see how my brain handles this.

see my breaking news on 720p blanking in this forum

Originally posted by reaper
Any word on the Indy HS51 show, Carlton? Monday or Tuesday or "maybe later"?

reap

I did get the projector out of the box and watched a movie . . . using the wall as a screen. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll get my firehawk screen up for a few days due to drywall / sanding that will be going on in the room. I didn't think about that until yesterday when I finished the rear platform and started to install the screen. So, with Christmas next weekend, the "maybe later" is looking better for a true demo. How does the week after Christmas look?

BREAKING NEWS!!! - Sony will solve 720p signal problem on HS51!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you remember, I called Sony and talked to their highest level of technical support a few weeks back to complain about their 720p signal blanking problem. I did that about 2 or 3 times. Well, my effort has finally paid off. I received a call today from a representative of Sony Engineering. He told me that based on my complaints, they are going to go for a fix. According to him, Sony was aware of this issue but decided to go with it to "eliminate noise around the picture" (quoting him). It did not make any sense. Anyhow, based on my complaint (and probably others as well) they have decided to change the design. There is going to be a FW upgrade on this soon. Although no official announcement has been made, the guy just called to inform me of this today to give me the heads up. He said once the FW upgrade is available, it will be posted on the Sony Support website:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/select-tv.pl

So Hurray! a solution is coming soon but I do not have specific dates. The sucky thing is that you will probably have to send the unit to the factory for this upgrade.

I am curious as to how the FW upgrade will be made available for d/l and install. Will this be across the USB/Ethernet transport? I was not aware that Sony has ever released (to the public) a FW fix for field-upgrade.

Yeah you might want to wait and shout hurray when it actually shows up.

Brian

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I did get the projector out of the box and watched a movie . . . using the wall as a screen. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll get my firehawk screen up for a few days due to drywall / sanding that will be going on in the room. I didn't think about that until yesterday when I finished the rear platform and started to install the screen. So, with Christmas next weekend, the "maybe later" is looking better for a true demo. How does the week after Christmas look?

Awwwwww... well, I guess I can wait a while longer. I called Ovation and they said they are filling orders with the shipment they got. They said it will probably be about 2 weeks before it's on display. Oh well... let me know. I will be in town for a few days between Christmas and New Years. I know I will be busy wed. Maybe Mon, Tues, or Thurs.

reap

Whoops... change that to Monday and Wed. We should probably move this discussion to PMs.

reap

Originally posted by usabrian
I watched Shrek 2 last night and it was so 3-dimensional as to be just unreal. But even sitting at 2X screen widths while the picture looked smooth and buttery but then...just every so often I would see some sort of noise in white areas in small patches. Just enough and what I am clearly seeing is the noise that SDE imparts on the image. This is just a failty in LCD technology given the closeness, or lack thereof of the pixels. Its sort of a "peek-a-boo" effect and you would see it I suppose about as often as one with a DLP sees rainbows. Clearly, each technology has its weaknesses.

Brian

Could the "noise" be mpeg artifacts, blocking perhaps, and not SDE?

Could the "noise" be mpeg artifacts, blocking perhaps, and not SDE?

No. I am very familiar with those items.

Brian

Since the AE700 does not have this problem, would you give it a better rating among LCDs?

I have not seen the AE700 so I cannot comment; however, those that have seen it and saw my HS51 preferred the HS51. This thing gets as close to CRT blacks as any LCD and most DLP can. And that makes a huge difference in picture quality. If you read closely at what I have said here you will realize that the SDE is the only thing holding me back from a full fledged ringing endorcement. Which is why I am interested in possibly pairing an IMX lens with it.

Brian

btw, did you get the x and the z backwards? ;)

Brian

Brian, I did observe something in an Panasonic, bright white areas, during fast motion that afforded a virtual scan-line like artifact to present itself. I attributed this to the LCD technology that not even SmoothScreen could overcome. In any event, the bright an image the more noticeable any artifact will get seen on a FPD.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Brian, I did observe something in an Panasonic, bright white areas, during fast motion that afforded a virtual scan-line like artifact to present itself.
Were the lines horizontal?

--Darin

Last Friday I received my HS51 from CRTFLD (can I say that?). I have it connected to a Sony DVP-NS975V via a 5-meter HDMI cable. My “home theater ” is a small, 12x12 foot room with white walls and a large mirror hanging on one side – not the greatest for light control! My landlord is not sympathetic to my request to paint the walls a dull, grey color. I sit about 10 feet back from a fixed 70-inch Carada classic cinema white widescreen mounted to a wall (a very nice screen, by the way).

Right out of the box I was thrilled by the picture. I am running it in Cinema mode with the lamp set to “low”. I see no VB, SDE, or noisy artifacts. 1080i is very nice with sharpness turned down to about 55. 720p does have the black bars on the side but I like the picture in 1080i so it doesn’t matter. I think the contrast is excellent, especially last night as I watched The Chronicles of Riddick. Resolution is amazing.

The various gamma settings (1,2, and 3) don’t really seem to do much. I have DDE set to “film” and Advanced Iris in “auto”mode. A person could tweak this machine for hours on end, so no doubt I will be experimenting a lot over the next few days.

This projector is definitely an improvement over my NEC LT150. It is a superb value for the money and I am, for now, a happy camper.

Charles

Darin, yes they were. This is what surprised me so much. I wanted to laugh, but manner kicked into play.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Darin, yes they were. This is what surprised me so much. I wanted to laugh, but manner kicked into play.
Tryg laughed at me at CES when I showed him how to make them show up at the AE700 demo. They bothered me on the AE300, but the AE500 was much better (I believe because of the higher resolution) and I didn't tend to see them when I was watching video.

--Darin

There is nothing to laugh about. The (vertical) motion scan line effect is always on LCD projector. There are other weird artifacts too. In time you'll see! :D

regards,

Li On

Li On, making a comment like There are other weird artifacts too. In time you'll see! is not being very nice to your fellow HTers. If you do not wish to state them up front for the better of knowledge, and instead keep us ignorant and regret our purchases later, then phooey on you! :)

OK, I just got my HS51 today from Sony. I haven't taken it out of the box or done anything because I honestly have nowhere in my house that I can project. I just moved in to my new place yesterday and stuff is everywhere. Not a bad housewarming gift for myself though eh? I have a dilemma in terms of choosing screen size.

My intention is to take the H-1000 Prismasonic I have on order and go 2.35:1 constant height with HTPC. To do that I am "supposed" to keep the PJ at minimum zoom. I'd say currently my max room size for the projector is 13 feet(Place is over a hundred years old). I've planned to temporarily throw on a 2.35:1 CRT White Goo Systems setup painted on a board from Lowes or somewhere(need to read up in the screens forum). My concerns are A. I don't want to elevate C.A. by zooming with the Prismasonic mounted in front and B. I don't want to sit too close to a large screen thus increasing the SDE on the image. When I finish my Basement I would like to put up a 112" Carada BW 2.35:1(~89" 16:9 diagonal) to give an idea of size. So at 90" screen diag for my PJ, seating distance is probably max 10 feet or 1.5x screen width.

I could always go down a bit and make sure I eliminate any use of zoom at the expense of size and also minimize SDE. I just don't want to lose that big screen "theater feel". Comments appreciated.

Also those interested in a screening in the Washington DC area would need to lend some elbow grease to help drywall a current plaster wall and prep/paint the goo systems temp screen. :,)

300zx twin turbo - High school car. Nickname and it stuck....

Originally posted by TheFerret
I am curious as to how the FW upgrade will be made available for d/l and install. Will this be across the USB/Ethernet transport? I was not aware that Sony has ever released (to the public) a FW fix for field-upgrade.

All FW upgrades on previous Sony projectors (HS10 and HS20) required sending the unit into their service center. Those units also had USB ports but lacked Ethernet. Unless the LAN connector is necessary for FW upgrades, I doubt this will change. It would also suck for those in Europe with the HS50 (no ethernet) instead of the HS51.

Sorry Wizziwig, someone else stated to me much earlier in this thread, or another related thread, that the only firmware upgrades Sony has ever done by request were on non-HT projectors (i.e. only on business projectors). In fact, IIRC I posted a dedicated thread about Sony and firmware and if anyone has experience to which Sony updated firmware for consumers on their HT projectors. No a single person stated they've had this done, heard of anyone else having this done, etc. As such, I had serious doubts.

Of course, this had something to do with my /sig demanding Sony fix the damn problem. :)

Hi together !

Just wanted to say that i received the image Director software..

I will try to find out now if there is a way to connect the HS50 to the computer.

But even without, the HS50 is very great to tweak !! I will post my results after christmas !


Thanks go to jschefdog for the help !


Regards,
Ekkehart,www.cine4home.de

Ekkehart, I look forward to reading your review, provided I can actually read your review. Previously, I used Babelfish off of Altavista's website, but that tool seems to be broke for me during my last 2-3 attempts to read your Z3 review.

I went ahead and created a dedicated TWEAK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485063) for those conducting tweaks, for both owners and non-owners alike. I do not know how long it will remain, but happy Tuesday morning none the less. :)

Originally posted by dandaroy
BREAKING NEWS!!! - Sony will solve 720p signal problem on HS51!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you remember, I called Sony and talked to their highest level of technical support a few weeks back to complain about their 720p signal blanking problem. I did that about 2 or 3 times. Well, my effort has finally paid off. I received a call today from a representative of Sony Engineering. He told me that based on my complaints, they are going to go for a fix. According to him, Sony was aware of this issue but decided to go with it to "eliminate noise around the picture" (quoting him). It did not make any sense. Anyhow, based on my complaint (and probably others as well) they have decided to change the design. There is going to be a FW upgrade on this soon. Although no official announcement has been made, the guy just called to inform me of this today to give me the heads up. He said once the FW upgrade is available, it will be posted on the Sony Support website:

http://esupport.sony.com/perl/select-tv.pl

So Hurray! a solution is coming soon but I do not have specific dates. The sucky thing is that you will probably have to send the unit to the factory for this upgrade.

It is my recommendation that since you have had contact with Sony Engineering up to this point, that you continue to press them on this. Say that you'd like to be able to show the Super Bowl in 720p and that you expect them to have it done by then. Maybe they'll give you an ETA which will mean "not available before this date" in reality.

Originally posted by Cine4Home
Hi together !

Just wanted to say that i received the image Director software..

I will try to find out now if there is a way to connect the HS50 to the computer.

But even without, the HS50 is very great to tweak !! I will post my results after christmas !


Thanks go to jschefdog for the help !


Regards,
Ekkehart,www.cine4home.de

After going over the manual for the HS51/HS50 I believe we have some false advertizing going on at the Canadian Sonystyle site (http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1000560&navigationPath=32050n32190) . It says that the HS50 PJ comes with "USB: Mini USB-B" and "Gamma Control Software (ImageDirector 2) ".

Can any Canadian HS50 owners confirm if this is true? I'm really starting to doubt it. Looks like grounds for a return if you ask me.

To all Atlanta members. Sound and Cinema in Alpharetta has the HS51 on display in their large room. Go by and take a look. I just left there and I had a different experience than I had at Brian's on Saturday.

Finally received word my HS51 is on the way. I've got a 106" Da Lite Da Mat coming at the same time. I've searched this thread trying to determine whether to ceiling mount or put a shelf behind the couch. Ceiling is 7 1/2 feet high. Because of configuration, top of screen will be 23" from the ceiling. I gather dead center on a shelf behind the couch is best. Is that correct? If I ceiling mount, is the idea that I should drop it as far as I can from the ceiling? Any thoughts or reference to an existing post would be appreciated.

Eric, I may need to do that tomorrow. Too late to go there today. Thanks for the heads-up.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Li On, making a comment like There are other weird artifacts too. In time you'll see! is not being very nice to your fellow HTers. If you do not wish to state them up front for the better of knowledge, and instead keep us ignorant and regret our purchases later, then phooey on you! :)

Don't push him or he'll post instructions on how to definitively find VB on your "VB free" HS51. :D And once you've seen them once, you'll forever see them. Ignorance is bliss.

Originally posted by awtryau89
I just left there and I had a different experience than I had at Brian's on Saturday.

In what way?
Thanks
Paul

Originally posted by JPinTO
Don't push him or he'll post instructions on how to definitively find VB on your "VB free" HS51. :D And once you've seen them once, you'll forever see them. Ignorance is bliss.

Don't worry! It's NOT VB. And 50/51 has NO VB! Feel good now? No? Then don't push me otherwise I'll tell you more "weird" artifacts! :D

regards,

Li On

I have a lot of courage. I am brave. Try me. :)

You need to have a LCD projector to begin with! Otherwise I can't let you enjoy all the artifacts! :D

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by awtryau89
To all Atlanta members. Sound and Cinema in Alpharetta has the HS51 on display in their large room. Go by and take a look. I just left there and I had a different experience than I had at Brian's on Saturday.
Could you give a summary review for those of us not in the ATL area!

Originally posted by Li On
You need to have a LCD projector to begin with! Otherwise I can't let you enjoy all the artifacts! :D

regards,

Li On

If anyone can't handle the artifact intelligence, they can speak up, otherwise, please share...
Take care,
Mark

on't worry! It's NOT VB. And 50/51 has NO VB!

Yes it does, but its minimal and not visible in "most" circumstances.

Brian

Brian, what material did you emply to see the VB? I meant to bring some DVDs that are amicable to bringing out VB, but forgot.

Knowledge can be a two edged sword ! Some people can't see the movie only the transfer or presentation. It is defiantly similar to obsessive compulsive behavior. Over the years my wife has had to put up with adjustments in the middle of the movie more than once.

I usually keep a projector 3 to 4 years so I don't mind any of the commentary. But for the uninitiated it can be troubling. Once you recognize the artifact you will always see it . You want to take the blue pill or the red pill ?Happy viewing Johnathan

I want to feed my brain with knowledge, not conjecture. Without information, would you really have use for AVS? Or the Internet?

I saw what appeared to me to be vertical banding last night at the end of Spiderman 2 in a dark scene where I was able to make out what appeared to be vertical stripes of different contrast. But unless you have a solid background you cannot see it, it is invisible with anything going on in the picture. So, do not fret too much.

Brian

BTW, playing with the dot phase adjustment with a web page full of text open I am seeing what looks like waves or columns of darker and lighter areas move across the screen as you adjust it. I am not sure exactly what was going on with that. Again, not visible in a movie, only in the text.

And I saw another DLP today that I thought looked incredibly dreadful. It was apparently a 7205 rebadge from a company called Noel (sp?). The Sony HS51 kicked this thing's but up and down the field.

Awful dithering, blacks crushed and every other thing you might imagine. This is what is so frustrating because talking to the guy you just knew he did not know what he was doing so you wonder if what you are seeing is a correct representation.

Does anybody offer loaners or some sort of loaner program? I would stop buying internet if someone did.

Brian

Originally posted by Paul Butler
In what way?
Thanks
Paul

Don't want this one to get lost...

Brian is being very methodical in his approach, so it is useful information for me. I appreciate it, Brian.

Another perspective usually is helpful...

Thanks,
Mark

Wow Ferret
You always seem to be able to shoe horn a comment into a very narrow point of view. As you can see having been a member of this forum for 5 years and countless hours of reading. Along with enjoying the Internet for almost the last 10 years I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that information is a bad thing.

It is how ever a constant internal battle to just watch the movie and not all of the shortcomings for some people. Happy viewing Johnathan

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Could you give a summary review for those of us not in the ATL area!

I will certainly do just that soon. I have actually had 2 different demos of the HS51 after Brian's on Saturday. I was travelling yesterday and saw another. I will be posting revised comments. Let's put is this way, I am almost embarrassed now about my original comments. I will be eating crow after what I have seen so I am trying to pick my words right. 2 out of 3 good demos have me singing a different tune. I have sent Brian a PM and he knows my feelings. I am also sure he has tweaked his HS51 much better and I probably need to go back by his house and look there again also. Anyway, you will be hearing more from me on the issue.

Don't want this one to get lost...
Brian is being very methodical in his approach, so it is useful information for me.

I appreciate it, Brian.

Another perspective usually is helpful...

Thanks,
Mark

Well Eric had PM'd me with his comments after seeing another HS51 setup ...and given everyone's insatiable thirst for every review of this sucker, here is what he said to me:


I went to a local dealer here in Roanoke, VA and lo and behold they had an HS51 set up and ready to go. They had just gotten it in last week and there installers got it up this weekend. They had not ISFd it yet because they wait for the bulb to burn in at least 100 hours. They had calibrated it with DVE and he said the tech had fooled with the color menu a bit. They were projecting onto a 110" Stewart. I have to apologize because I forgot to ask if it was a Firehawk or a Grwhawk. I am pretty sure it was a Firehawk because this PJ had replaced a DLP. I could be wrong. Anyway, what I saw was completely different from your demo. I am sure your setup has been tweaked a bit more but for me this was a night and day difference. I did not ask them at all how they had the PJ set up so I cannot tell you any numbers. Anyway, this picture looked awesome. The colors were very saturated, much moreso than I saw at your house. The black levels were astounding to me. This PJ had the 3D black, as I like to call them. SDE and VB were the same that I saw at your house, or should I say didn't see. Anyway, this demo completely changed my mind. Like I said, I am sure that you have tweaked your a bit more. You may have just had a setting in the DVD player off like the IRE black level or something but compare to what I saw today, your PQ was just more washed out than what I was used to. This demo really struck me as to what the Sony can really do. It may have been the screen and I think that is definitely a factor. Anyway, I just thought I would share my thoughts and when I get around to it I will correct myself on the forum. I really am glad I did not cancel my order today. Dow says they will have them in by the end of the week. Keep the Sony and keep tweaking and you will be happy.

What I want everyone to remember is that we had our shootout Saturday at 1pm. I got this projector out of the box midnite the night before and only for a brief period with a RP56 DVD player. It was not until a few minutes before our meet did I even get my Geforced 6800 based HTPC hooked up and most of the settings were left over from my Barco 808. In other words, not optimal. But for the most part people were impressed and I would consider those conditions worst case scenarios. I have since determined that whites and blacks were way too hot. I have since lowered brightness and contrast settings significantly, though not as far as AVIA seems to want me to go.

For me brightness is a non issue with this projector, a red herring. In the case of Spiderman 2 last night certain scenes were blinding me in fact. I think certain scenes in this movie are way too hot with skintones almost beeming white.

Brian

Oops, I just noticed Eric's post in between mine so maybe I jumped the gun.

Brian

Originally posted by johnathan
Wow Ferret
You always seem to be able to shoe horn a comment into a very narrow point of view. As you can see having been a member of this forum for 5 years and countless hours of reading. Along with enjoying the Internet for almost the last 10 years I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that information is a bad thing.

It is how ever a constant internal battle to just watch the movie and not all of the shortcomings for some people. Happy viewing Johnathan Shoe horn, huh? :)

I am trying to make a wise decision based on information and observation. If information can help me in the observations I would hope it would help me make a decision on buying a product or not. You see, this is an activity before one sits down and enjoys the show. Otherwise, I'd just go any old damn projector and forget about any PQ aspects.

Thois reminds me of when I was seeing 'something' in DLP projection but could not identify it, and what others were talking about when they mentioned DLP rainbows. It was the information of their descriptions with my description that information was exchanged, and as a result I learned from this informational exchanged that what I was seeing was DLP rainbows.

So, maybe I should have just shut up, not conduct activity in AVS, follow your lead, and hell be damned :D with anything relating to PQ and just buy anything. Ahem, no thank you. So, I guess I will 'shoe horn' away.

I also made this post in another thread but I feel it should be here also for "PAL" people considering the Sony.

Those in PAL countries should read this.

Well, with 576p (output from Denon 3910) into the Sony's HDMI input there are no cropping issues and the PQ is great. In fact, I struggle to see any PQ differences with upconversion to 720p (albeit with cropping) or 1080i.
Then, with HDTV in Australia, we dont have 720p transmissions. I just set my STB to output at 1080i (DVI) into the Sony and all is fine. So at least for me the 720p problem is a non-issue.

Just got done watching I-Robot. You talk about an amazing picture, wow. At 2X screen width it was surreal, as close to hidef as you can get from a dvd with nvdvd and ffdshow. Just wow. And this movie has lots of high contrast scenes in it. Anybody crapping on the contrast ratio of this sucker does not know what they are talking about.

It did't hurt of course that I finaly got what appears to be pixel perfect. I am really not sure why I would want to mess with DVI at this point. Its hard to imagine how it can get better than this. (I am sure I will try though ;) )

While the picture I saw tonight did not have the absolute black levels and shadow detail as my Barco 808, the overall viewing experience was superior, I can admit this due to the crispness and relative punchiness of the image. This from about 2X screen width.

Brian

Originally posted by usabrian
I saw what appeared to me to be vertical banding last night at the end of Spiderman 2 in a dark scene where I was able to make out what appeared to be vertical stripes of different contrast.

I have said it too many times. In order to really make out ONLY the VB, the only way is in perfect 1:1 mapping. On the HS50/51 meaning the use of 15pin VGA input in 720p with clock/phase adjustment with a single pixel pattern.

And even under such condition you see something MAY looks like VB, you still need to make sure it's not the playback source but rather the projector itself. Meaning some vertical stripes on dark background MAY come from the source playback. You need to make sure the VB like effect is independent of the source playback.

And as always, when I say no VB, I mean the VB is so minor that it's acceptable to me. The Sony problem is not VB.

regards,

Li On

Brian,

Congrats! Would you mention again what dvd player and how it is connected. Also, what screen, size and gain. All of us on various waiting lists for this projector are now very, very happy.

Larry

" have said it too many times. In order to really make out ONLY the VB, the only way is in perfect 1:1 mapping. On the HS50/51 meaning the use of 15pin VGA input in 720p with clock/phase adjustment with a single pixel pattern."

Who here votes for not going to extreme measures to see "flaws" in the projector.

Sometimes, I think people go so far to the extreme to figure out what's wrong with an image, they completely lose sight of all that's right with it.

I don't think anyone can NOT go the extreme for close to 15K posts! :D

Seriously, we try the extreme to find all the artifacts, then we can have a peace of mind and finally enjoy the poor picture! :D

regards,

Li On

I do not go to extreme to see problems. But I am certainly not going to play an ignorant fool and pretend happy, happy, joy, joy they don't exist. Since there are problems that Li On has suggested, but feels I can't handle the truth, I'll have to swear off LCD. Order canceled! :D

Shame on you! For I have enjoying all the LCD artifacts for 3 years and counting! :D

Seriously, I'll post other artifacts after I find some specific scene examples...

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by Li On
Shame on you! For I have enjoying all the LCD artifacts for 3 years and counting! :D

Seriously, I'll post other artifacts after I find some specific scene examples...

regards,

Li On

I own a LCD projector, what artifacs are you talking about, can you list them? And are they only regarding the HS51?

I received my HS51 on Monday and have had two days to fiddle with it. I don't have my screen as of yet, it is on order, so I have been projecting on a green wall. One thing I have noticed thus far that output from my HDTivo is definitely much better on 720P compared to 480P and 1080i. I sure hope they come up a fix for that black border on 720P. For those of you with the HDTivo we can output every show in 720P and then adjust the picture so that the black is zoomed to hit the frame of the screen. The only caveat is that we cannot utilize the projector to zoom or resize the image since it is receiving an HD signal. We can however use our TiVo and adjust from Panel and Full. This works fine when we are watching a 16x9 image, but in my opinion is very irritating when watching a 4x3 program.

Originally posted by Li On
Shame on you! For I have enjoying all the LCD artifacts for 3 years and counting! :D

Seriously, I'll post other artifacts after I find some specific scene examples...

regards,

Li On


Pics please. :) I'd like to understand what to look for if I demo a cheaper projector...

Also, how does the VB (or lack thereof) compare to what you saw on the Panny AE700?

Originally posted by Rogo

Who here votes for not going to extreme measures to see "flaws" in the projector.

Sometimes, I think people go so far to the extreme to figure out what's wrong with an image, they completely lose sight of all that's right with it.

Yes... but there's going to be that one scene in that one movie that everyone is talking about that will kill us. ;)

Then again, wasn't it the cyclops that traded an eye for the ability to see his own death? ;)

Btw, I vote for no extremes....

Well, I will be going to S&C today to see the Sony in their demo room. I think I will bring a couple of DVDs that hopefully assist in seeing the negatives (I live by knowing the worse case scenario). Anyone have a recommendation on title(s)?

I would think something like Pirates of the Caribbean would be good for fog/clouds. Dark City (or something similar) for the darker scenes.

Originally posted by usabrian
While the picture I saw tonight did not have the absolute black levels and shadow detail as my Barco 808, the overall viewing experience was superior
Brian

This should be in a bright flashing neon sign plastered across all projector forums. I have been reading this forum for a long time and I don't believe I've ever seen a post from a CRT owner stating that a digital projector was better. Definitely not an LCD projector! I was amazed when CRT owners even compared it to their precious 3-eye beasts. To me, that was enough of a ringing endorsement [even though they were still saying that the crt was better] to know that the HS51 was a breakthrough product. Seeing someone actually say it is superior to their CRT is still leaving me speechless. I can't believe all the stars lined up to allow this to be my 1st projector (hopefully).

reaper

Um, this isn't necessarily true. I have commented in past about certain aspects of a digital projector in general or for a specific make/model. For instance, I was amazed by the colors during an audition of a friend's SIM 300 and year or so ago.

And my entire endeavor with the HS51 is to see how it performs overall to my 7" CRT.

Originally posted by reaper
This should be in a bright flashing neon sign plastered across all projector forums. I have been reading this forum for a long time and I don't believe I've ever seen a post from a CRT owner stating that a digital projector was better. Definitely not an LCD projector! I was amazed when CRT owners even compared it to their precious 3-eye beasts. To me, that was enough of a ringing endorsement [even though they were still saying that the crt was better] to know that the HS51 was a breakthrough product. Seeing someone actually say it is superior to their CRT is still leaving me speechless. I can't believe all the stars lined up to allow this to be my 1st projector (hopefully).

reaper

Before you get to excited remember this is only one person. Go back and read my comments. After the retube on my G70 the difference is night and day. The HS51 lacks the depth of a good LC CRT. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crapping on the HS51 it was a nice projector but I personally would not give up my G70 for it.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Shoe horn, huh? :)

I am trying to make a wise decision based on information and observation. If information can help me in the observations I would hope it would help me make a decision on buying a product or not. You see, this is an activity before one sits down and enjoys the show. Otherwise, I'd just go any old damn projector and forget about any PQ aspects.

Thois reminds me of when I was seeing 'something' in DLP projection but could not identify it, and what others were talking about when they mentioned DLP rainbows. It was the information of their descriptions with my description that information was exchanged, and as a result I learned from this informational exchanged that what I was seeing was DLP rainbows.

So, maybe I should have just shut up, not conduct activity in AVS, follow your lead, and hell be damned :D with anything relating to PQ and just buy anything. Ahem, no thank you. So, I guess I will 'shoe horn' away.


If you read my post you can't believe that I meant hell be damned with anything relating to picture and buy any thing. I had a feeling you were leaning in that direction and it could not be farther from my intent.

I meant shoe Horne my post into the statement [ have no use for knowledge ,the forum or the Internet.] Not information about any given projector or it's short comings.Knowledge is always good but it does come at a price for some. That was my point Back to the regularly scheduled discussion. Johnathan:confused:

I know that members have said that this aspect or that aspect of a digital projector is better, but I have never seen someone say that the overall image quality of a digital projector is superior to a CRT.

Also, GScott, there will never be a time when everyone says that any one thing is better than any other thing.

Maybe I made too big of a deal of it. But to me it is a big deal if even one CRT owner makes that claim. I think that one statement represents a big improvement in digital projection technology and is quite impressive considering it was said about an LCD. Anyways, no need to argue about it. Just thought I'd make a note of it for newer forum members who might not have been here in the days when "nothing even comes close to a CRT".

reap

Reaper
If memory serves me I think HTCrazy moved from a CRT to the Sony HS-10 almost 2 years ago. But I agree with you these are very exciting times !
Every time the bar is raised everyone in the market benefits . Johnathan

I find it a rather odd statement when the Panasonic has been claimed to have a smoother more crt like image than the Sony. Contrast difference? Who knows....

Not to mention, I think Reapers comments were regarding what to buy for his first projector, not make him switch from a CRT or other projector he already owns.

I am in the same boat myself, as I'm sure many people who will read this thread (and probably never comment) are.

Hence, it is one thing to say that this or any other projector would be a great projector for the money, it is another to say that the 50/51 is that much better (or worse) to drive one to replace an existing pj (investment).

Just want to update my information: Got an HS50!
Just wonderfull picture. Didn't need much to set the contrast/brigtness, it was (almost) ready out from the box.
However some small adjustments of color would be better to get excellent picture quality, but got me lack of experience to do this.
If someone would be kind to share some information i would be very thankful.

I know that members have said that this aspect or that aspect of a digital projector is better, but I have never seen someone say that the overall image quality of a digital projector is superior to a CRT.

Don't go too crazy, if you read carefully what I said was that the "overall viewing experience" was superior not that the overall "image quality" was better. And this statement is only true at a distance of 2Xwidth. As I have posted several times, inside this distance and SDE and other effects I believe LiOn has alluded to come heayy into play for me. Note that these statements may only be true for me. I have found that having a crisp, sharp image with good colors is more important than the absolute shadow details and black levels. Many CRT owners may disagree.

Additionally, it is a HUGE issue for me to have a low noise floor in my theater. This sucker is truly inaudible with a low lamp setting. That I can never have with a CRT unless I build some bulky enclosure for it. And my Barco is one of the quietest ones out there! With my setup its just not feasible to build a hush box for the CRT.

I specifically did not say the image was better in an absolute term because FOR ME what makes up a superior viewing experience can include several different items, not all related to the image.

Maybe this clarifies where I am coming from. To make clear, I have not decided if I am keeping this projector because the SDE comes into play for me at my normal viewing distance of 1.5 widths. One thing is certain though, if Sony takes this design and implements a 1920X1080 panel it should be a slam dunk, and a rush from CRT to digital is likely to follow. I am at this point serious considering the IMX lens to see if this helps me in the interim at my normal viewing distance.

Brian

Time to change your signature HS50....movies at home - Rocks hard.....better than going to the movies for sure.

OK, OK... I concede. But I am still going to be happy that it's even close no matter how strongly you guys hold on to the CRT superiority complex :) haha


reaper

Well if you want to know the truth, I prefer a digital projector picture over the crts that I have seen. Granted I have not seen a calibrated g90, but for me this was a no brainer. I have seen calibrated 8" crts and I was not blown away. All of the hassle of owning a crt is reallly not worth it to me. My time is valuable and when I want to watch a movie, I don't want to feel like I could have had the convergance a little better and so on. It is fun for the owners of the ancient behemouths, but that kind of fun I can do without.

There have been several threads in the past 18 months of CRTers replacing their top end ( 8" or 9" LC/EM) units with digitals. Typically the digitals have been the top end HD2+ pjs ( Sharp 12k/Marantz S3 ) or the 1080p LCOS machines ( Qualia or JVC HD2K ).

A lot of people have speculated, particularly after the rave WSR review, that the HS51 was at the level where it could compete with the best 8" non-LC CRTs. It looks like that may be the case. Of course we will have to wait for the darinP shootout to settle it :)

I have a pristine G70, 213 hours, in my theater. I would not replace it with a Sharp 12k class pj, I believe that the overall pq would effectively be a draw, with a very slight edge to the G70. I would definately say that the Sharp 12k , and HS51 from the reviews so far, has an overall better pq than my previous pj, a D50, a 7" non-LC ES focus machine.

I have an HS10 in the bedroom, which head to head is sharper, and has slightly better color uniformity than the G70!

For a first pj the HS51 appears to be a huge winner.

No zxlr8, the panny 700 does not appear to be in the same league :)

Thanx zxlr8, i keep that in mind....

Im shooting the HS50 with a Denon 2910 HDMI cable well, actually the cable is dvi connector out from denon with 1080i signal and hdmi connector in at HS50.
(the denon hdmi goes to an plamsa screen)

HoustonHoyaFan, While I hate to argue, I would have to disagree. Li on and others have seen these and decided if the vertical banding was not there the difference is pretty minor even on the contrast. Now I realize you guys are not looking at HDMI blanking as part of picture quality, but I have to disagree repectively. By the way My 700 has no vertical banding and it does not exhibit any color uniformity issues. Projector Central among others have agreed the scaler in the Panny was better for upconverting sd sources. It also is easily brighter. For you just to throw the 700 out with a nondescript, blanket statement is irresponsible. Have you compared the 2 yourself?

I've recently went back over numerous reviews of this projector and it seems brightness reports vary by a large margin. I've also revisited the review in WSR and I think I may have an idea why. In Bill's review he reported 500 lumens in high lamp mode with contrast set at 80, he then went on to say that he could not calibrate grey scale accurately unless contrast was turned down to 40, but did not give a lumen reading for that. He also stated he did most of his viewing with contrast at 60-70, again with no lumen reading. It seems like the contrast adjustment greatly affects the overall brightness, varying it as much as 3 fold from 40 (where a flat grey scale can be obtained) to 100. Going by Li On's review it would seem one can expect around 250-300 in high lamp if perfectly calibrated for a flat grey scale. If one is willing to put up with a bit of a white point deviation it seems that you can get almost twice the brightness. Of course this is all speculation on my part, as I don't own one yet. From those that do own one, does this sound plausable?

Just a quickie, I've scanned through the entire thread a couple of times, and still cannot find the difinitive answer to a couple of questions.

To those connected via HDMI from a HCPC:
1) What desktop resolution is considered best to use for general working, if the 720p produces borders?
2) If you resize to 1080i with FFDShow, does this do away with the border problem on HDMI i.e., does it only effect 720p
3) Is there any information on what resolutions can be used in programs, ie, games?

Thanks for the help :)

gobrigavitch,
Makes sense to me , But I do not own one either....

Originally posted by GScott
Before you get to excited remember this is only one person. Go back and read my comments. After the retube on my G70 the difference is night and day. The HS51 lacks the depth of a good LC CRT. You mentioned have mentioned this before and I just forgot, but how far back were you sitting? As noted, in this case it was 2.0x. I'm not saying that your point isn't true, just wondering about this one aspect. Did you try it from a ways back?
Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
I would definately say that the Sharp 12k , and HS51 from the reviews so far, has an overall better pq than my previous pj, a D50, a 7" non-LC ES focus machine.

I know that one person who brought a Marantz S3 to my house felt that the images were quite a bit superior to the D50 he had up until that point. One thing I think is important with CRTs is how well they are setup though. They have a lot of potential in general, but I have gotten the feeling that there are some people out there with great setups and quite a few with substandard setups. I think moreso than the variability in digital projector setup.

--Darin

It seems like the contrast adjustment greatly affects the overall brightness, varying it as much as 3 fold from 40 (where a flat grey scale can be obtained) to 100.

I do not see much difference in brightness varying contrast, so I doubt this. In fact, I have had great difficulty in adjusting contrast because it does not have the same effect as say on a CRT where it has a huge effect on spot beam size, focus, etc. I initially started with contrast around 75-80 and am now down to around 50-60 range. Has not hurt brightness for me.

Brian

Wow, almost 20 posts since my last. Talk about a busy thread for one morning. :)

Anyway, I went to go see the Sony HS51 up at S&C. I spoke with a chap named Ed. He seemed like a nice guy and they were not busy, so he played a gracious host and entertain the wife and I for about 30-40 minutes.

The only source available was 480i DVD from a Sony 5-disk player. The setting was iris=auto, lamp=low, but I think the black level or picture level (forget what it is really called) was set to Cinema black.

I brought Pirates and 2001 with me. I am not sure that I observed any VB, but I went looking for it in the fog/cloud scenes in Chapter #1. What I did notice was what I first thought was EE (and about to blame the DVD) when it was suggested that it was more ringing. This was observes as outlines on hats, the sails, etc. in several scenes.

Contrast was a little high (86, I think), brightness ok (58-60?), but the host admitted the sharpness was way up (do not remember the figure). The screen was a Draper gray-based screen, and Ed suggested it was probably around 1.0 gain.

During the scenes I looked to compare them to my 7" CRT (non-LC) and also my observations at Brian's home this past Saturday. Black level was lower than my original HS51 audition, but I think it was higher than my CRT. I do not take this as a negative in consideration for moving forward on my purchase, because something else seemed more strange: color.

As with my first audition of the HS51 (at Brian's home), the DVD color just seemed diluted, or washed out. I understand that the colorspace for NTSC DVD may be muted, but then again I cannot help but think not this muted. Seriously, the colors are not this muted compared to my CRT using the same NTSC/DVD colors.

I have now watched clips from three different sources for 480i DVD and all yielded the same results. Maybe I am just running the colors strongly (richly) on my CRT? I don't really think so as its D65 calibrated and I haven't touched it since late October 2003.

But I would have to say it is unfortunate that no HD source was available for today's activities. My wife wasn't in Brian's theater when we switched to HD, and I had really hoped to show her the real performance compared to what I found less than stellar.

And as always, I had to remind myself that this is a non-calibrated projector that someone else noted seemed to perform its best with HD material (1080i specifically). Anyway, that was my morning fun and I look forward to the next audition.

NOTE
One interesting point by WSR when testing an upscaling dvd.
You need to set the color space on the projector to SD color space. The projector will in most cases assume HD color space on HD inputs.

I wonder how many projectors allow manual setting of SD/HD color space.

The Ferret
Could the gray screen be the culprit with the color issue if it is not just a calibration issue.

Mattias, I do not think so. I observes what I would call muted colors in my first audition, but that was on a white screen, not gray. BTW, that is interesting about the SD/HD color space handling. I never considered that. Could it be that Sony just defaults the SD color space to something conservative?

Originally posted by darinp2
You mentioned have mentioned this before and I just forgot, but how far back were you sitting? As noted, in this case it was 2.0x. I'm not saying that your point isn't true, just wondering about this one aspect. Did you try it from a ways back?
--Darin

I don't know the exact distance but I'm guessing about 1.8x. From that distance I never noticed the SDE. The picture just didn;t seem to have the same depth as the G70. As I said earlier I'm think it is a function of the dynamic iris and the normal contrast ratio of the LCD panels. It seemed that as the picture got brighter it would lose the depth it had. I'm curious to see what the picture would look like if you coupled a dynamic iris with a higher contrast projector like a HD2+ based DLP or the Qualia.

Did you play with the RCP-real color processing feature any? You can pretty much dial the colors to any punch you like.

Brian

Brian, I was nothing more than an observer. :) I never touched the remote.

In Bill Cushman's WSR review he said the color production was fantastic. The 5-disk Sony may be the culprit. Ferret and others, I feel like you just haven't seen the HS51 with the right settings yet. Not many people have had their HS51's long enough to do real tweaking. Also let's give Cine4home a chance to put this thing through its paces. That man knows how to tweak a projector.

Um, this was observed on 480i DVD material from a) HTPC (Brian's), b) Panasonic RP-56 (Brian's), and c) Sony 5-disk DVD player.

While I eagerly await Cine4home's review, I just hope that I can read it. Babelfish (via Altavista) hadn't been working the last 2-3 times I tried it).

Ferret, you gotta stop relying on what you saw at my place from just a couple of dvd's. Remember, I had just plucked it out of the box. I don't believe you saw it for much time with the htpc btw as I was having some troubles and found out later that I had the desktop and TT2 and powerstrip color settings all playing havoc with each other. And as I previously indicated I had the contrast and brightness settings cranked, which appears to "wash out" the picture as you put it. Finally, on top of that you were often standing well in front of the first row of seating, which put you at about 1-1.25 screen widths. Too much to expect from 1280X720 LCD panels. At 2X its a whole different ballgame.

Going back and looking at your post I read that the guy had contrast cranked to 86? That's too high.

Brian

Originally posted by Ohlson
NOTE
One interesting point by WSR when testing an upscaling dvd.
You need to set the color space on the projector to SD color space. The projector will in most cases assume HD color space on HD inputs.

I wonder how many projectors allow manual setting of SD/HD color space.

The Ferret
Could the gray screen be the culprit with the color issue if it is not just a calibration issue.

Does the HS51 have the ability to select SD/HD color space? I just bought a Toshiba DVD/VHS combo with HDMI out and able to select 480i/480p/720p/1080i. This player I heard, outputs the correct color space.

I received my projector a few days after ordering from Sony Style with the 10% off coupon. Its already mounted with a Draper aero mount and unversal projector bracket. Works great. I have a Caroda BW screen and to me the picture is wonderful. Granted this is my first projector. My screen is about 100 inches horizontal and from my sitting position of 17 feet I see no screen door effect right out of the box. I have to move much closer for it to be bothersome. Bought the zenith 318 component upconverting DVD player off ebay. Don't know yet if it works as I haven't had a chance to play with it much yet.

I called projector people to cancel my other order which I made 2 months ago. They told me the HS-51 projector is going to be recalled and I might want to keep it on order to get a post recall product. This was brought up several pages back. Has anyone heard anything else about the recall.

Originally posted by theschack
I called projector people to cancel my other order which I made 2 months ago. They told me the HS-51 projector is going to be recalled and I might want to keep it on order to get a post recall product. This was brought up several pages back. Has anyone heard anything else about the recall.

Congratulations on getting your projector!

Nope, no info. I don't know how you got your dealer to tell you anything about the ongoing delay. Mine just tells me that they cannot guarantee any date, and keeps pushing another projector.

Seems like units are trickling out, from what I can tell. No big shipments to discounters, though (or probably anyone else except for Sony Style). If Sony Style is shipping, does that tell you anything?

We have discussed the recall rumor already. Interesting that you are noting a very reputable dealer...

Mark

[Sorry for the long first post, but hopefully the information will be useful.]

Well folks, I am waiting on my second HS51 which should be arriving from Sony Style this Friday. You are probably wondering why this is my second HS51. Me too. But the fact is that the first one I received on Saturday had what to me was a very interesting and strange defect that could only be resolved (as far as I was concerned) by a replacement unit. A repair on an out-of-the-box, show-stopping problem was not an option for me. Otherwise, my sights were going to move to the AE700.

This was a Sony Style purchase using the previously mentioned 10% coupon, but before I go any further I want to first thank everyone in the forum for the great information (both pro and con) about the HS51 and pjs in general. I am very much a newbie in the pj world and the information has been of great value as I made my decision on which pj to purchase.

Now for the story. Hopefully, some of you with more experience will have insights regarding the nature of this problem, but in any event, I wanted to put this out there for everyone to digest within the entire mix of the HS51 information. Well, I have a 20'x14' room that will be used for the theater. At this point there is much work to be done with regard to painting, a screen, furniture, etc. So, after receiving the HS51, I was going to do a quick, raw, un-calibrated evaluation, right out-of-the-box, to try and gauge my impressions against everything I had read. My initial take on the pj was quite good. With nothing to compare against (short of my 27" TV), I thought it looked fantastic.

But then slowly, the realization of the problem became clear. I was watching the beginning of LOTR:FOTR and was so far very impressed. The image was just as I expected from everyone's collective evaluations (I admit the brightness seemed fine to me, but again this was my first pj). The scene where Gandalf enters the shire revealed the problem. I noticed, in about the middle of the lower right quadrant of the image, a faint "green" spot. On the approximately 100" diagonal "screen" (i.e. wall at this point), the spot was a little larger than a quarter and was slightly irregular in shape, but primarily circular. The "spot" was most readily visible against a primarily white image. I immediately began to feel sick. I then adjusted the focus, moving the focus ring to each extreme. In doing so, I noticed that moving all the way in the counter-clockwise direction, the once faint and fuzzy spot was now very distinct and clear. Immediately, I knew it was not a defect or spot on the exterior lens as it rotates with the focus ring. I also flipped the image horizontally and vertically and the spot did not move. Therefore, it was definitely something internal that I could not fix (a bad lens, a speck of glue, who knows what) or adjust away (short of opening up the unit, which I was not about to do at this point). My thoughts were that this was likely not an LCD panel problem either (i.e. dead pixels, etc.). Of course, I tried everything I could think of anyway, but nothing made any difference.

To make a long story a little shorter, I was able (after some wrangling) to find a salesman at Sony Style to honor my original 10% discount for a re-ordered HS51. Otherwise, it would have been a return only. All in all, this accommodation kept my opinion of Sony from sliding too far, but the new HS51 better be in perfect working order!

Has anyone ever heard of such a problem before? Perhaps it was something simple that just needed cleaning (internally), but I was not going to accept such a thing on a brand new item.

Did I give up too soon? Any thoughts?

Sounds like a dust blob to me. You would have had to open the unit and spray some compressed air at the offending LCD panel. In the end, on a new product you probably did the right thing.

tholian,

I don't have extensive experience with digital projectors but it sounds like you had a dust blob. Nothing that couldn't be fixed but also nothing that should be present on a brand new projector.

Yeah, dust did occur to me as a possibility, but I wasn't going to open that guy up and mess with anything right off the bat. A couple of years down the road would be a different story. I build custom computers all the time, so I'm not afraid to dig into the internals of a device, but this was a different situation.

However, I put about 12 hours on the lamp, experimenting and generally evaluating the unit (trying to ignore the "spot" once I conceeded defeat). In all that time, the spot never changed shape or shifted or moved at all.

Would dust tend to move over time or would it have stayed stationary during that 12 hours of use?

Hey Brian, I am only reporting things as I experience them. I would have to visit a second time for a new experience and report on it to have a different note to sing. :) Friday I am in shackles by the wife, but I am free some time tomorrow and Sunday.

Well,

My 2 year-old Sanyo Z1 had several dust blobs, only one of which is (barely)
visible when properly focussed, and it has never moved. (Although most dust
blobs appear only in darker scenes. Mine is only visible on an almost black
background.)


Mike

golfnz34me: Do your dust blobs exhibit any discolorations? As I described, my spot was green in color and unlike yours, was most visible on white backgrounds (invisible on a black background).

I wonder if there is a way to force or mimic HD color space using RCP but for 480i input. While HDMI (and DVI-D) may be limited in transporting 480i, I thought someone suggested that for HTPCers you could double-up on the timings (or something like that) so that while its not deinterlaced 480i material (its still 480i, but being passed as something else that DVI-d/HDMI can transport) it can be interpreted as something else other than SD.

I got my HS-51 ceiling mounted over the weekend to my dalite 106" HCCV (1.1 gain) screen. In the dark, I'm very happy with the performance using the cinema black setting with the lamp low. I've watched Pirates of the Caribbean on DVD and loved it (progressive scan DVD using component cables). I don't notice screen door unless I get within a 5' and cannot notice any other issues (no VB), but I don't know what other artifacts discussed look like. I haven't had the opportunity to calibrate with DVE or Avia, hope to get time over the holidays. My family members (also projector newbies) have also loved the picture. With this screen I don't have any image dimness issues based on sitting location. However, when I watch during the day with lots of ambient light, the cinema black version doesn't have enough light output.

Many of my friends and family had doubts about my idea for a projector in the family room of my home. My wife thought the idea was crazy. However, she loves it now and is anxious to rewatch all of our favorite movies on DVD. I don't have HD yet, but plan to purchase something within the next week.

As a projector newbie I'm very happy about this purchase and recommend it to anyone. I followed the Panasonic 700 thread for a long time, but was worried about VB issues if you leave the projector on standby. I have some issues with screen size with my HT-PC (I can get it to fill the screen), but will post those in the new tweak thread.

lonnie, was there a reason for going with modest-gain screen?

Hey Brian, I am only reporting things as I experience them. I would have to visit a second time for a new experience and report on it to have a different note to sing. Friday I am in shackles by the wife, but I am free some time tomorrow and Sunday.

Well the wife is away tomorrow night so that works well with me. Sunday may also work but I have to go buy a sectional at some point. This Sony really cost me $5250, not $3250 ;)

Brian

$5250? You mean you had to buy her something so you could buy the Sony?

Permission is never required for me to get something but post purchase bribes do seem to be more than just optional. Bribe may not be the best word, more like insurance.

And more like $7500 if you throw in the earrings, but it is our 10-year anniversary coming up...

Brian

Originally posted by TheFerret
lonnie, was there a reason for going with modest-gain screen?

I was on the fence between the Panasonic 700 and the Sony HS-51. I was anxious to get my first projector, but these two were not available in September and October. So I started purchasing all the other pieces ahead of time (cables and screen) so I would be ready when the projectors were available. Based on all previous LCD models, it seemed like a good idea to get a gray screen. Based on the feedback from CEDIA, there was still some doubt that the Sony could really do 6000 to 1 contrast.

Hindsight being 20-20 I would have probably went with a slightly higher gain screen (I was also considering the 1.3 gain dalite cinema vision). In the dark the picture looks great. I need to work on my ambient light control during the day (add black out shades and room curtains).

Lonnie

Lonnie,

My wife had similar thoughts...she thought we were 'wasting' room by doing a dedicated HT room in our addition. Now that it is in, she loves it and spends more time in there than me! She wants to watch a movie every night.

My HS51 comes in today. I currently have an sp5000 in the room and am anxious to put up the sony and compare. The infocus has a little too much SDE for me when viewing from my front row which is exactly 1.5X screen width.

I will share my observations on the HS51 once it is up. My room is 15'W X 23'L and completely light controlled with ox blood red paint on the walls. The screen is 106" diag Dalite HCCV.

Brian

Brian,

Since we share the same screen (size and material), I'm very interested if you feel the same way as I when you watch in the dark. However, my walls are a medium beige color (linen).

My room size is 14' x 18' and my main sitting area is 2.0x screen width and I cannot notice screen door at all from this position. With a HT-PC I can notice screen door when focusing on it about 1.3x screen width, but with a progressive scan DVD player using component cables I cannot see screen door unless I'm within 1.0x screen width.

Lonnie

I received my HS51 from Sony Style on Tuesday. I ceiling mounted it at 8.5' as I have a 10 ' ceiling. The top of my screen is an inch or two shy of 8'. The screen is 52" x 92" (106 diagonal). It is a Dalite HCCV 1.1 gain. Note this is a grayish tint screen. Had planned on an HS20 and bought the screen 4 months ago. I am giving you this info on the heights as I have been impressed by the brightness of the projector. I certainly am very happy with the screen/projector combination. I have run both the THX calibration (on many DVDs) and DVE using a blue filter. In both cases I felt the color and hue were right on at the default of 50. Sharpness 40. Contast was adjusted to 70 and brightness to 56. I am using the medium color temp. Cinema mode with auto iris and low lamp.

HD is very good. I have had HD for two years using a Samsung TS160 Directv HD & OTA HD on a Sony 36" XBR, so it rates right up there with that set. I am feeding the HS51 with a 30' DVI to HDMI cable from RAM and using 1080i. The picture is very three dimensional and bright. DVD is fed with homemade 30' component cables - going thru a Yamaha RXV2400 for switching. I think the DVD looks great also. Just not nearly as good as HD. I have posted a single screen shot in my gallery. Note lights were on and I covered my flash with my thumb. If someone tells me how to attach a photo I can take a few more screenshots.

Just got the call that my HS51 is in at one of the places that I pre-ordered from (a chain store of all places). It looks like it might be a very merry christmas after all.

However, I've been told by two Sony dealers that Sony has halted shipment in preparation for a recall. Does anyone have any insight into a potential recall on this projector? I know it was rumored a couple of weeks ago but it would seem that vendors are starting to get wind of it as well. One of them said that they did not expect to see any more HS51's until at least the end of January.

Anyone know anything more?

Rumor, likely to assuage unhappy customers is all I can assume. My projector clearly doesn't have any defects unless you assume the DVI blanking issue might be a defect.

Brian

Question for HS51 owners, When using the HDMI port, is there an option to select the SD color matrix? Reason I ask is the sony hdmi player, send out the picture using the SD color matrix, and by default most displays assume an HD color matrix. With the Sony player this results in a green depression.

ay221, I would presume this might be an option since the HDMI can transport NTSC DVD, no? And NTSC DVD is SD color space, right? I', more asking on the second comment, hehe.

Just got the call that my HS50 is going to arrive tomorrow morning at the place that I pre-ordered.

The original ETA was Nov 15th, but then I was told not to expect to see it until at least the end of January. They also were told that Sony halted shipment till then, but .... it seems it's going to be a long weekend.

For the record, here the MSRP of the HS50 is 3.300 € (4.550 $) .... :(

Originally posted by ay221
Question for HS51 owners, When using the HDMI port, is there an option to select the SD color matrix?
I don't see anything like that in the User menu or manual. There is a Color System selection under setup which is usually set to Auto but can be manually forced to NTSC 3.58, PAL, SECAM, NTSC 4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N or PAL60.

Took the projector out of the box and tried to power up. Projector turns on for a few seconds and then turns off. Fan error LED flashes. Noticed something was flopping around inside the projector. Took projector apart and found the plastic fan blade portion had separated from the fan chassis. Put it back into the chassis. Put projector together again. Projector works great now. Thought I'd let everyone know since this could very well happen to any other unit (shipping most likely). My client has his working for Christmas now instead of waiting for repair/replacement.

dezigner, and you took pictures for all of us to see what it was like all opened and everything, right? Pictures turn me on, hehe.

well, i've had a few days with my hs50. i've went through avia twice, and without a smart 3, i can't get it anymore calibrated. settings are lamp low, cinema, black level low (i've heard of black crushing on these settings, and it is evident on the higher settings, but low works well with my current dvd player, which is a 6 yo pany a-120. i'm awaiting my reference dvd player), iris on auto, 104" black out cloth screen, mounted 15' back. i'm running 480i over component cables from bluejeanscable. can't remember for sure, but i have the brightness in the low 40's, contrast around mid 60's, and sharpness in the high 30's. i very slightly adjusted color. also, i have another color setting to mid instead of low, i can't remember what that setting is. anyways, in a light controlled room with white walls, the projector looks amazing. a step above the panny 700 i saw recently. the blacks are deep. i wish there was a tad more detail in the darker scenes, but the picture is still incredible. colors look fantastic and the projector is plenty bright, even on this 1.0 blackout cloth. i posted some screenshots in the screenshots thread, and plan to take a couple more and post them over the weekend. the projector has no VB, and SDE is a non issue past 5'. slight defocusing helps the SDE, but also makes for a more film like picture. i have worked as a theater projectionst at a local theater as recently as 4 months ago, and have probably watched more than 200 movies in the last year on a great theater system, and this sony recreates the theater experience spot on. my only gripe is the same as most, the 720p blanking.

eric

So, BCS is low-40's/mid-60's/high-30's. Does the Nemo picture you posted exhibit more graininess if you increase C (contrast) up to something like 80? Was that Neo picture after the double-Avia session?

Ferret,

Pictures of the open projector? I would never open up a projector to service it, just in case it might void the warranty. I'm pretty sure if someone did open it up they would find the fan located in a corner, where they probably would find a little pocket of space where the fan resides, and that there would be enough space for fingers to fit to move the fan back into place, and that most of the other circuitry for the projector might be behind a big metal plate that needs to be removed to see other cool stuff, and that the screws for the cabinet should be carefully re-installed since they could easily strip in the high quality plastic. I'll be sure to bring along our digital camera next time I install a broken one.

Originally posted by TheFerret
So, BCS is low-40's/mid-60's/high-30's. Does the Nemo picture you posted exhibit more graininess if you increase C (contrast) up to something like 80? Was that Neo picture after the double-Avia session?

Nemo pic was after avia, what a pain. i have not tried to increase contrast but will and will look for graininess. i am experiencing ringing on everything i watch, but i suspect it to be my old and cheap dvd player. i should be getting my reference dvd player in the mail shortly. also, i will take screenshots of live action movies as well, but the colors on nemo are just amazing.

eric

eric,

what reference dvd player are you getting? i am looking at a pioneer elite. how did you decide on the dvd player?

larry

Eric, for ringing it may be the black mode. Change away from the Cinema setting and see what happens, but leave everything else constant.

Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
Brian,

Since we share the same screen (size and material), I'm very interested if you feel the same way as I when you watch in the dark. However, my walls are a medium beige color (linen).

My room size is 14' x 18' and my main sitting area is 2.0x screen width and I cannot notice screen door at all from this position. With a HT-PC I can notice screen door when focusing on it about 1.3x screen width, but with a progressive scan DVD player using component cables I cannot see screen door unless I'm within 1.0x screen width.

Lonnie

Lonnie-

Am I reading this correctly that with a decent signal (source) you can sit almost 1.0x the screen width? That is with the HS51? Did you demo a Panny AE700 or avoid it with the issues you read about? What swayed you to the HS51?

Thanks,
Warren-

Sorry, I have to wonder about people's eyesight when they indicate they can't see screendoor unless they are "within 5-feet of the screen" and cannot see it at 1.0Xwidth. I can see it inside 1.75Xwidth occasionally, inside 1.5Xwidth constantly. Which is why I am considering the IMX Lens. I believe this will likely do the same thing the smoothscreen does for the AE700.

I have to wonder though, those that say you don't see it, don't you at least see a dirty haze over bright areas and clouds?

Brian

You took the words right out of my mouth, Brian. It reminds me of a composer that learned (through a professional hearing examination) his hearing was failing, and instead of buying +$20K pair of speakers he bought a pair that were considerably less expensive since he could not longer hear the minute differences.

Originally posted by usabrian
Sorry, I have to wonder about people's eyesight when they indicate they can't see screendoor unless they are "within 5-feet of the screen" and cannot see it at 1.0Xwidth. I can see it inside 1.75Xwidth occasionally, inside 1.5Xwidth constantly. Which is why I am considering the IMX Lens. I believe this will likely do the same thing the smoothscreen does for the AE700.

I have to wonder though, those that say you don't see it, don't you at least see a dirty haze over bright areas and clouds?

I believe that some people don't see SDE as a "life and death" level issue. If it doesn't bother someone until they are 1x distance or closer to the screen, I think they are happier people. They may not be looking for every conceivable flaw in the projector and are instead just wanting to enjoy the picture and the experience. They shouldn't be viewed as "eyesight impaired". Personally, I find the scanlines on a CRT more annoying than SDE from a digital projector. Everyone has their own level of satisfaction, some are just more readily attainable than others.

In fact, in some ways they should be envied because they are more tolerant. I don't get down on people for liking stereo systems they can buy at the electronic big box stores (unless it is BOSE). Just because I prefer Krell and Classe Audio equipment and can hear the dramatic (to me) difference over Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo or Denon doesn't mean that everyone else can or would even care to. In a way, I'm jealous of those individuals that find JVC or Kenwood audio equipment sufficient. They can achieve the same level of satisfaction as I do with my Krell/Classe system, but a far lower price and with greater piece of mind.

There is a difference between observing something for the sake of identification and noting when it becomes an annoyance, yes. I think Brian was refering to those that simply cannot see it at X distance and not at what distance those individuals become annoyed by it. And there are some just as obseving (and annoyed) by the pixelization of even high fill-factor technologies, too.

Yes, it is one thing to say it is not there and another thing to say it is not annoying or a problem for you! There is a difference!

Personally, I find the scanlines on a CRT more annoying than SDE from a digital projector. Everyone has their own level of satisfaction, some are just more readily attainable than others.

You should never see scanlines with a properly setup CRT! A7 480p I see scanlines, at 720p I do not see scanlines and at 960p they slightly overlap. But for arguments sake, with a CRT where you can see scanlines we are talking about a gap vertically only. With pixels the gaps are on every side! Much more annoying for me at least.

BTW, since we are discussing being anal ;) , artifacts I have seen that I believe LiOn has briefly alluding to with LCD would include scanline like artifacts in fast vertical motion. Its almost like the panel cannot catch up. Seen this only once or twice in about 20 hours of viewing.


Brian

would include scanline like artifacts in fast vertical motion
I observed this on the AE700 during what think was a commercial for either HDnet or Discovery HD. Very fast clips with fast motion within each clip.

Has anyone tried using a Silverstar screen with the HS51?

Originally posted by larsil
eric,

what reference dvd player are you getting? i am looking at a pioneer elite. how did you decide on the dvd player?

larry

i decided on a samsung HD1000. i had heard great things about the video quality and audio quality with this beast of a player, and thought i should check it out. plus it scales to 720p and 1080i over component, and i wasn't quite ready to go to an hdmi player. my next player after this one will be high def.

eric

Originally posted by TheFerret
Eric, for ringing it may be the black mode. Change away from the Cinema setting and see what happens, but leave everything else constant.

i'll do this tonight and see what happens. also, i'm currently using black level low, so that might be causing it as well. i'm really hoping it is my dvd player, we'll see though. it might be the component connection too. the cables are bluejeanscables, and i have them running through my receiver as well. and oh yeah, Merry Christmas to you guys!

eric

Eric, your screenshot of Nemo looks awesome!
I hope you find time to post more.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I don't see anything like that in the User menu or manual. There is a Color System selection under setup which is usually set to Auto but can be manually forced to NTSC 3.58, PAL, SECAM, NTSC 4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N or PAL60.

From reading this useful thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486428

The DVD player should output the SD color matrix via hdmi, and the projector must be able to select the SD color matrix. Hopefully that color system selection option you mentioned is it.

Brian, I typically sit 10-12' back from an 84" wide screen and I clearly see SDE. Tonight I moved back to 15' and could still clearly see SDE, though it was less bothersome. I too am curious about people who can't see it until they are 5' from the screen...I wish! The SDE is the only thing at this point that's got me on the fence about keeping the HS51 or not. (The slight dimness, I can live with.) Defocusing helps, but is not a complete cure.

craige17: are you seeing the SDE ALL THE TIME or only on certain scenes/certain colors and/or brightness?

craige17
If the SDE is the only thing you are on the fence about maybe you should look into purchasing an IMX lens.
I have seen them in action and they really do work!
It takes the SDE away and (IMHO) it even improves the overall picture depth/clarity.
If I decide to purchase a HS51 I will order the IMX the same day.
I am waiting to see if Sony will fix the 720p cropping or if you can get around it somehow by using an HTPC.

Brian, I typically sit 10-12' back from an 84" wide screen and I clearly see SDE. Tonight I moved back to 15' and could still clearly see SDE, though it was less bothersome. I too am curious about people who can't see it until they are 5' from the screen...I wish!

I'm just as curious about people claiming to see SDE at >2.0x screen width;) I've never had any guests (and I've quizzed them all) be able to identify screendoor w/o walking right up to the screen, even after showing them exactly what it is and how to see it. One close friend who's read this forum sat there at 1.3x shaking his head and saying, "that's what they're complaining about?!?"

I'm not blind; I just had an exam last week, in fact. I'm a weak 20/20, lasik-corrected. I can see it under 1.5x if I specifically look for it (on a HS20), but it doesn't become an issue until around 1.0x for me. I've said it before but I find scan lines on a CRT TV (non-progressive) to be far more noticable and annoying at >2.0x distance than SDE on my PJ at 1.0x. I guess it's just one of those things- some people can look past it w/o being distracted, others can't.

I'm truly sorry it bothers you that much. If I had to sit that far back I probably wouldn't watch it very often; that distance totally loses the immersion factor for me. Do you normally sit farther back at movie theaters? Are you annoyed by film grain there?

Kevin, I do not think anyone was suggesting anyone was blind--if that were the case why would you be looking at projectors in the first place. :) Still, some know what to look for AND have good enough vision to see SDE at 2X screen widths. Is this all the time? Is this enough to back away? Who knows, but that two questions are moot.

Now, if anyone cannot see screen doors until they are within 1x screen width then they should be happy. If someone doesn't know what to look for in the first place, then they should be happy.

I also think part of the confusion is what people are using as the definition of screen door effect. For some that don't see it until very close to screen, I beleive their definition is when they can actually see grid lines. for those that see it farther back, I beleive they are refering to the fact that they can see the effect of the grid lines on the pq (though not the actual grid lines).

Now if those that say they are seeing the actual grid from 1.8x or whatever back I have my doubts :)...

You have your doubts because you feel their visual acuity cannot be that good?

Originally posted by JJay
I also think part of the confusion is what people are using as the definition of screen door effect. For some that don't see it until very close to screen, I beleive their definition is when they can actually see grid lines. for those that see it farther back, I beleive they are refering to the fact that they can see the effect of the grid lines on the pq (though not the actual grid lines). I agree. I think there are even more categories than that though. Some people just walk toward the screen one time and report where they start to see the lines. Others report where they see the lines at some point during a movie. Others report where they stop being aware of the lines (or stop perceiving the digital look that the lines impart) either with the one test or with a whole movie (some bright scenes) as a test. I think this is one reason we see so much disparity in reports.

--Darin

Originally posted by JJay
I also think part of the confusion is what people are using as the definition of screen door effect. For some that don't see it until very close to screen, I beleive their definition is when they can actually see grid lines. for those that see it farther back, I beleive they are refering to the fact that they can see the effect of the grid lines on the pq (though not the actual grid lines).

Now if those that say they are seeing the actual grid from 1.8x or whatever back I have my doubts :)...

Excellent point!

A simple test I use to determine a what point someone can discern the grid pattern on my HS10 is to show them a perfectly focused blank screen, completely defocus it, hadn them the remote and put them at 1.5x and ask them to perfectly focus it. Most people do it around .5x

If I go looking for something I usually reserve the weighting of that something before another observation comes in. For instance, if I am not looking for something and I notice it, or it draws my attention, then the weight I place on that type of observation is much stronger.

For me, its the annoyance-factor. I could care less if its two mice in a box with a pair of binoculars producing the image on the screen as long as nothing distracts me from the content and continues to produce a good image I'm happy. But, if I am distracted its going to annoy me, and then I look closer.

BTW, initially, I did not see SDE at 1-1.2x screen widths while at Brian's house. I actually had to look for it. An hour later I was moving from about 1.65x to 1.5 and checked my footing (the floor) and looked up and there SDE was. I wasn't looking for it, but I was annoyed (all be it minutely) as it distracted my attention.

An interesting aspect worth wondering about is if SDE, the observance and distraction by SDE becomes more or less of a problem over time. This is similar an applicate to DLP rainbows. Unfortunately for me, the longest I spent was two weeks and it didn't go away, but that was with a limited CW.

I didn't feel anyone was implying blindness on anyone's part Ferret, I just felt the need to express the counterpoint; especially for the newbies & lurkers, the vast majority of which will never be bothered by SDE, black levels, and all the other anal-retentive issues we debate:)

My tolerance for screendoor really hasn't changed in the two years I've had PJs, but I could see some getting more annoyed with time, as we all find things to obsess about & give us a reason to upgrade...

Well I wanted to add some comments here since my original posts. I waited to put this on the board until I had my HS51 in hand and was able to compare directly to my Epson. It is amazing what you can do and see with both PJs in the same room at the same time. I left the Epson on my ceiling mount and mounted the Sony below it on a step ladder. The Sony was not perfectly aligned to my screen but it sufficed. The picture was a little slanted and since I am so anal about geometry, I had to really try and ignore this but i was able to and make a very good comparo. I basically left both PJs on and switched my DVD with my Geffen HDMI switcher and quickly switched cables. I ran a Pioneer 59AVi in 1080i upconverted mode. They were broadcast onto a Carada Brilliant White 110" diagonal screen with a 1.4 gain. I sit exactly 160 inched from the screen which yields a 1.6666 ratio. I feel I am pushing the limits here. My room is a dedicated theater and has flat black ceilings, dark cranberry walls and dark carpet.

Calibration

I will speak much more to the Sony calibration since this is a Sony thread. The Epson was originally calibrated with DVE and as noted in most reviews is very close to D65 right out of the box. I also calibrated the Sony with DVE as well. In my calibration I noticed some weird things. Black level is hard to hit straight on with this PJ because the iris seems to adjust. I finally settled on 65. Contrast is also weird. I could not get it to crush the whites all the way up to max but I noted a major color shift as I ramped it up. In using DVE, a setting of 40 seemed to be about where the color shift started so I set one memory here. I just did not like this on my picture so I tweaked it by eye and settled on a setting somewhere between 70-75. Color and tint where almost spot on. I bumped them up to 52 for both. I also tried Avia for calibration and it produced the exact same results. I dropped Sharpness to 35. I noticed a bit of ringing at different levels of the adjustment scale. I adjusted to where there was no ringing on the lower part of the scale. Gamma was off, Black Level was off. Iris was set to Auto and lamp level was set to low.

Impressions

First of all I must say the Sony does not seem to be a dim PJ on its own. When I first hooked it up, I thought this is fine. But once I compared it directly to the Epson it is dimmer. The thing I saw at Brian's popped up again. The Sony's iris definitely effects the overall brightness of some scenes and gets out of the way on others. This is noticeable only by a direct comparison.

One thing I was amazed at was the smoothness of the Sony compared to the Epson. I have to defocus the Epson to not have a problem with SDE at my seating distance. With the Sony I can focus the image sharply and not have a problem. After viewing the pixel structure up close, I am wondering about the panel alignment. I can see bits of red and green in each pixel but there is not nearly as much definition between the pixel structures (black area) on the Sony versus the Epson. The image from the does not have outlines at my seating distance and looks great so I would not say there is a major problem with panel alignment. I am wanting to chalk this up to Sony figuring out a better way to eliminate SDE but I will reserve judgment here until I can find out a bit more. I said all this to say, the Sony has less SDE than my Epson. The image is definitely softer and smoother. I cannot fully recall the Panasonic AE700 I had in my room but I would say the Sony is as good or very close in this area.

A few little things. The Sony synchs much faster than my Epson when switching from 720p HDTV to 1080i HDTV. There is almost a 3-4 second delay on the Epson and the Sony is around a second. The blanking issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. I do have the border but it is not distracting unless I focus on it. Many times today I switched to ESPN HD and forgot it was there. After watching a while, I noticed it but it never really bothered me. I will say, I hope Sony fixes this quick though and the revelation that they have stated they will may be helping me not to notice it as much as I thought I would.

The Sony is quiet, quiet, quiet. If this is something you want in a PJ this is your unit.

I was able to send the Sony a 480i signal from my DVD through HDMI. The image was outstanding. I think the scaler in the unit is definitely not a weak point. I must say after going back and forth, I preferred the 1080i signal though. I wish the Epson accepted a 480i through HDMI so I could compare the Sony's scaler to the Faroudja in the Epson. The Faroudja scaler in the Epson is a major selling point for me but I rarely am able to take advantage of it. Downconverting 1080i is the only way I use it. Downconverrting with both PJs and I could not differentiate the Sony's scaler from the Epson except to say the Sony was smoother but I attribute that to what I spoke of above.

Colors on the Sony just cannot match the Epson. Please be aware that the Epson has been noted to be spot on tracking grayscale at 6500 right out of the box. Color has also been noted as dead on in Theater Black mode. This mode engages a color filter in the unit and cuts green and blue back to the red level. This is a major strong point on the Epson. The Sony is very good though and viewing on its own I would never have a problem with it. The Epson just has better overall color balance. It also seem to have deeper colors but I think the Sony can look just as good if it is calibrated. I watched ROTK EE and the hobbits clothes just seem to so much more right. On Pirates, the red coats are a much more natural red than on the Sony. Being able to switch on the fly was what revealed this to me. I think it will need a color filter as implemented in the Epson to get there though. I plan on having the unit calibrated eventually if I keep it. The Sony just seems to have the red ramped up too much to me. I notice this in gray fields. Turning the contrast way down eliminates most of it but the overall image suffers. This is why I know it will need a calibration.

VB is a major issue to me. I loved the Epson for eliminating it. I can now say that the Epson did have VB. I compared all the usual scenes with on the fly switching and I was amazed. The Sony is completely devoid of VB. When looking at the Sony's image and comparing, the Epson's VB jumped out. Now it is very slight and I really never noticed it at all before this comparison but when compared to the Sony I have to say it is there on the Epson and it is not on the Sony. This makes me very happy and is a major selling point for me.

Now on to what has garnered the Sony all the attention, contrast ratio and blacks. In my original post, I stated the Sony wasn't much better than my Epson and certainly not better than most DLPs. Well I officially retract that statement. Having this PJ in my room and being able to calibrate it to my liking made me see the light (or lack thereof). This PJ has the best blacks I have seen in a fixed panel device. Now I cannot claim to have seen them all and many I have seen were probably not calibrated properly or in the optimum viewing environment. I add this as a disclaimer so people won't flame me but I still stand by my comments. When switching between the Epson and Sony you can see how much more gray the Epson is compare to the Sony. The comes with a caveat, the image is dimmer as mentioned above. Direct comparisons showed me the Epson seemed to have more punch because of this brightness. This seemed great for the Epson initially but when looking at normal details in the image, the Sony showed them and the Epson just washed them out. When looking at dark images and shadow detail I was amazed at the difference. Things that were just black on the Epson, showed up on the Sony as details in the image. Another great comparo was the black bars on letterboxed DVDs. Switching on the fly showed the Epson to be much grayer with almost a purple like tint to them. The Sony, although not what I would call totally black, was much deeper black and much less gray. In this area, this was not a fair fight. As for DLP comparisons, I have most recently had a Sharp 10K in my room. This was almost 6 weeks ago but I feel I remember the PJ fairly well. From my memory, the Sony is clearly better than this unit as well.

Well I tried to note most of what I am seeing on the Sony. If I think if anything else, I will add it later. I hope this helps those that are still waiting on a unit. I have enjoyed the discussion so far and I am glad to add to it. I hope to learn more from the tweaks thread and hoe that Cine4home gives us some great info in his review.

eric, great review. i am happy with my hs50 and am glad you've retracted some of your original comments on the sony cause i was going epson had i not found an available sony. what did you do to get rid of ringing? i have changed all my settings except for sharpeness, and i still have ringing. i totally forgot to play with sharpness, but i've got it set at 35.


eric

Keep in mind there are some different variables that can be causing the ringing, like whatever player you are using.

On Pirates, the red coats are a much more natural red than on the Sony. Being able to switch on the fly was what revealed this to me. I think it will need a color filter as implemented in the Epson to get there though. I plan on having the unit calibrated eventually if I keep it. The Sony just seems to have the red ramped up too much to me.

Check the tweaks thread and the calibration where it was noted that red was too hot. This I also noted or seemed to note when I was playing around with the RCP the other day. But I was refusing to believe my eyes.

Overall, great review Eric!

Brian

I'm not sure if sony changed the sharpness settings between the HS10/20 and the 50/51, but I have sharpness set to 0 on my HS10. That removes all ringing on images but due to the fixed digital panel it does not induce fuzziness to the image. Try lowering the sharpness to 0 for a while. It might look soft to begin with, but in the end it may give the most natural image.

Eric (awtryau89), this is really interesting, and I now want to come over even more. How about tomorrow? :D I have your number and will give you a call tomorrow to set something up this week if not tomorrow.

Brain, was that a Colorfacts calibration, or a SMART3? But I agree, the red-push was noted and I believe the idea behind a red/pink filter would be to be able to safely drop red in the projector.

Eric when you used your dvd player via hdmi, did you have to set to manually set the color space on the player to SD? With all the issues of the lower end dvd upscaler I think I am going to use good old component cables for DVD until HD/BR come out.

Originally posted by ay221
Eric when you used your dvd player via hdmi, did you have to set to manually set the color space on the player to SD? With all the issues of the lower end dvd upscaler I think I am going to use good old component cables for DVD until HD/BR come out.

No. The Pioneer has a very good upscaler. I also used the 1080i mode on the Epson and Sharp 10K. I have used 720p for a period of time then switched to 1080i for a period of time. When I went back to 720p, I found I preferred 1080i. I do not know what it is.

Brian and Ferret, I tried the settings on the tweak thread. I have them saved under Custom 1 in the Service Menu. They do look good but with my unit and these settings, I am finding things a bit green. I know each PJ, screen and source are different but I am liking the ability to tweak in the service mode and save the settings. Custom 1,2 and 3 are great for this. I plan on getting the unit calibrated. Maybe the 3 of us can rent Colorfacts and split the cost and do some serious damage.

Deleted. Dual post.

Originally posted by ericeash
eric, great review. i am happy with my hs50 and am glad you've retracted some of your original comments on the sony cause i was going epson had i not found an available sony. what did you do to get rid of ringing? i have changed all my settings except for sharpeness, and i still have ringing. i totally forgot to play with sharpness, but i've got it set at 35.


eric

Eric,
The Epson is an outstanding PJ. Remember it is has $5000 msrp and is the OEM for the $5500 Yamaha LPX-510. I still love my Epson but I am having fun with the Sony right now. Who knows what will happen. I was going to sink my money in a high end DLP when my dealer gave me a call on Tuesday. I just had to try the Sony first and now I may be glad I did. Who knows?!!!

I can pretty much see SDE all the time if I look, but for the most part I can ignore it. What Ferret says is how I feel:

For me, its the annoyance-factor. I could care less if its two mice in a box with a pair of binoculars producing the image on the screen as long as nothing distracts me from the content and continues to produce a good image I'm happy. But, if I am distracted its going to annoy me, and then I look closer.

If I go looking for something I usually reserve the weighting of that something before another observation comes in. For instance, if I am not looking for something and I notice it, or it draws my attention, then the weight I place on that type of observation is much stronger.

When I say SDE on the HS51 bothers me, I mean where I'm not looking for it, but it draws my attention in an annoying way. Maybe I'll get used to it. Or maybe an IMX lense (which I know nothing about) will help. I wonder if I see it so much because I'm used to looking at a CRT pic?

I am looking forward to the Cine4Home review/tweak that was coming after Xmas.

Anyone here moved from a NEC HT1000/1100 to a SONY HS50/51. If so was it an improvement?..........Hmmm!:)

Originally posted by Ohlson
I am looking forward to the Cine4Home review/tweak that was coming after Xmas. I'm looking forward to being able to read it. Altavista's Babelfish seems to bomb out if I try to translate one of their review pages (especially the Z3, which I've tried to translate several times in the past couple of weeks).

Thus, as a review site its something I can no longer use.

Originally posted by Kevin Korom
I didn't feel anyone was implying blindness on anyone's part Ferret, I just felt the need to express the counterpoint; especially for the newbies & lurkers, the vast majority of which will never be bothered by SDE, black levels, and all the other anal-retentive issues we debate:)
...

Yes... but we aspire to attain that level of anal retentiveness. :D

Ahem, I aspire to be less annoyed.

Yes... but we aspire to attain that level of anal retentiveness:D

Are you sure anal retentiveness isn't hyphenated?!?;)

FPN can be confused with SDE. I do notice FPN on my HS-10 but SDE is not an issue FOR ME at 8ft with the 50 or 10.

One caveat I am not 20/20. :(

I have only seen FPN in pictures presented on this forum, and even that is a rare condition of being presented with the opportunity. Not saying its a monir concern, but rather I would be entertained in having more opportunities in seeing this in person--as long as its not on the Sony HS51. :)

I wanted to post some additional updates. I have had the PJ for a few days now but I had to put all my tweaking on hold while family was here for Christmas. Now that they are gone, I spent a good bit of my Sunday working on things.

I want to thank Nick and his input on the Tweaks thread. I translated his settings into +/- values to use on the User menu. In Custom3 (which corresponds to Low) I came up with these values:

RGain 0
GGain +27
BGain +23

RBias -3
GBias 0
BBias -12

These settings gave Nick very good grayscale tracking with Smart III. They look very good to me although definitely not perfect. I still see a bit too much red and sometimes too much green but they are much better than any of the factory settings. The great thing here is you can try these and not mess with anything in the Service/Factory menu. Once these were set, I checked Contrast and Brightness with both Avia and DVE. I came up with these settings:

Contrast 90
Brightness 58

DVE shows that the above white information is not crushed and it does not have nearly as much of the major color shift I was noticing. This is on the Full Pluge Scale screen, I think 14-12.

Next I worked a bit on color. I am focusing only on the primaries here. I used the RCP menu to work on this. I set the Color and Tinit back to 50 and used both Avia and DVE here again. Saturation is the only function I used and after going back and forth quite a few times, I ended up with these settings:

RCP Red +8
RCP Green +4
RCP Blue +2

I am definitely a novice working with these colors like this. With grayscale I am a bit better but these settings may be way off. I just used the color filters and worked the colors to the best saturation.

Okay, after all this what did I see? Well I used ROTK EE and looked a few scenes I am very familiar with. The Mount Doom scene is much better. The lava is much better saturated and the reds/oranges are better. Next I checked the Coronation scene. This is a great scene for flesh tones and colors. The colors are a bit muted but overall it is a great scene. The first thing I looked for was Aragorn's red ascot under his armor. It was nearly perfect and as good as I can remember. A very deep velvety red. All the armor in the crowd scene showed very well and very gray metalic. The faces or Eowyn and Faramir showed a great contrast in skin tones. Arwen was also exceptionally silky looking. The next thing I looked for was the Hobbits clothing. This stands out to me. The colors are muted but contrast a great deal with everything around them. This too showed very well. Finally I went to the next scene to check the greens. When the Hobbits return to The Shire you get a good look at the grass. This was a bit oversaturated but looked much better. I also notice a bit more green than I liked in other scenes. Just something else to work on.

BTW, I also checked Pirates for the British soldiers red coats. Now it looks much better. Previously, the reds were oversaturated and had too much bloom to them. Now they look deeply saturated without going too far and they do not have as much bloom.

The great thing I am seeing with these settings is a much better overall balance to the picture. Contrast and brightness and better dialed in and this is giving a punchier picture without washing anything out or the bloom I was seeing in whites some of the time. Color is also coming into its own. As I stated, this is still not perfect but it has been fun trying so far.

[Now, if anyone cannot see screen doors until they are within 1x screen width then they should be happy. If someone doesn't know what to look for in the first place, then they should be happy.] 12-26-04

[I want to feed my brain with knowledge, not conjecture. Without information, would you really have use for AVS? Or the Internet?]12-21-04

So Ferret
Which is it ? The red or the blue pill ?
Seems the admonishment was a little premature ! Johnathan:confused:

Originally posted by johnathan
[Now, if anyone cannot see screen doors until they are within 1x screen width then they should be happy. If someone doesn't know what to look for in the first place, then they should be happy.] 12-26-04

[I want to feed my brain with knowledge, not conjecture. Without information, would you really have use for AVS? Or the Internet?]12-21-04

So Ferret
Which is it ? The red or the blue pill ?
Seems the admonishment was a little premature ! Johnathan:confused:
johnathan, never quote me out of context. If you do not have the cajones to quote me in full then please just make up anything and certainly not adhere to the context of my words.

I don't see any FPN on the HS51 at all, and when I tested the BenQ8700+ I could see it if I looked (but it was not to the point of being annoyed). So I think I'd know what it is if I happened to see it.

I still think the colors on the HS51 are amazing, btw, with little calibration (ran mine through Avia once).

I watched Dawn of the Dead tonight (great zombie flick, if you haven't seen it) and the HS51 performed very well. There was a loss of black detail in a very few places in Cinema mode that, to my eye, was acceptable. This also seems to be iris dependent to some extent...on some scenes black level seems better than on others. Could be the way the scenes were shot, or the way the HS51 was handling them, but either way it wasn't too bad.

hi could you please tell me if the zoom and the lense shift can cause any picture loss,i would like to put the hs50 9'2''from a 6'wide screen,is this possible without picture deterioration if zoom is used to achieve this.
thank you...............dis

Craige17, is there specific movie material (DVD) that you use in evaluating for FPN? On the Benq PE8700+, did you swap out DVD sources (not movies, but players) to eliminate the player being the cause? Just curious, here.

The Ferret
What are you talking about cajones. You made a statement after a post of mine stating that I was suggesting buying anything information be damned.

Now a couple of pages later you say it is good if some one is happy because they don't know what to look for. Until your name is on the top of AVS forum. I will post as I see fit. Of coarse within the guide lines.

Next time I will post all of the content. You just seem to be able to blurt out anything and when called you get into a threatening posture. Chill out.
Every word in my post was your's none made up.


It all get's back to the question on information. I still stand behind the statment it is a doulbe edged sword. Johnathan

johnathan, you took two completely different topics of discussion and combined them as if they were one, and they are not. One statement was about SDE, and the other about everything except SDE. I have never suggested nor implied one shouldn't look for things in a particular technology they are considering, but I did say that if one cannot see an anomaly at their viewing distance then it should play into their decision.

Also I do not know of anyone that is sitting 1x screen width or closer. Sure, I can imagine there is someone, but this isn't the norm or the average (I'm betting, here) and as such it is why I deliberately chose in my statement a closer-than-normal distance for which to compose my statement ABOUT SDE.

My comment about informational exchange was in respect to Li On stating there were other aspects that he refused to identify just because I did not own the projector, and those were aspects outside of SDE.

Ferret, I have not used specific movie material to test for FPN on the HS51, just whatever movies I've happened to play. On the BenQ I tried it with a few DVD players and one (the LG) added a TON of FPN. But even with the Bravo D2 I could see FPN on the BenQ. So far nothing with the HS51 using a Toshiba upscaling DVD player (which I'm not going to keep).

Well I have had the HS51 up in my room for 4 days now and am pleased so far. I previously had the Infocus SP5000 in the same room and my comparisons will be relative to that projector.

General Observations on SP5000 vs. HS51:

My biggest complaint with the sp5000 was SDE which is almost non existant at 1.5X screen width on the HS51. I have only occasionally observed a little SDE on very bright scenes. As expected, the shadow detail and black levels are much better on the HS51. Also, there were 'noise like' artifacts on the SP5000 (I don't know the official name) which the HS51 does not appear to have. The HS51 is definitely dimmer than the SP5000 by a noticeable margin...IMO you definitely need a completely light controlled room for the HS51. My HT room is completely light controlled with dark walls and black furniture so this is not a major issue (but a bit of a dissapointment).

Material watched on the HS51 so far: DVD's - Collateral, King Arthur, I Robot; ESPN high definition from Dish Network. The high definition football game looked great on the projector.

In terms of settings, we liked the 'Dynamic' mode best...cinema mode was just a little too dim. I have not yet calibrated the projector with my AVIA disk (loaned it to a friend) and will share further feedback when that is complete.

Brian

Brian,

Would you give some other details: dvd player, screen size and gain, how far sony is from screen, etc...

Thanks,

larry

Originally posted by craige17
I don't see any FPN on the HS51 at all, and when I tested the BenQ8700+ I could see it if I looked (but it was not to the point of being annoyed). So I think I'd know what it is if I happened to see it.

FPN is an artifact unique to lcd panels, so you were not seeing it on the benq given that it is dlp based. i don't doubt that you were seeing an artifact that you found annoying, though. it is a matter of semantics, but since we as individuals in the forum can typically only see a couple of different projects, i think it is important that the artifacts of a projector be catagorized accurately. (off soapbox)

Someone will need to explain what FPN is in order for me to understand that its associated exclusively with LCD. FPN has never been observed in LCoS?

Maybe I'm totally off base here, but isn't FPN = fixed pixel noise? Maybe I'm confusing FPN with dithering on a DLP?

Fixed Panel Noise.

Brian

awtryau89,

When you set up your Custom3 tweek what is the sharpness set to? and is the iris set to Auto?
I'm going to make these settings on mine and see what it looks like.

I played with the Avia disk on Sunday and could not get the black moving bars to show up at all on that part of the disk. The black is always black and the grey is grey, but no moving bars.

I'm running a Sony SLV-D300P DVD Player component out through a Pioneer Elite VSX-52TX, the projector is 22 feet back, projecting onto a 165"diagonal screen(DIY made from Dazian Celtic Cloth) it looks really good. The front row is at 11' but they recline and the normal viewing is 13'.

Call me crazy for running this projector on such a large screen, but it is affordable and we like to sit in the front row in big theaters.


Vance

See pics of my theater at photos.yahoo.com/vblew

My Apoligies The Ferret
Guess I misunderstood the spirit of your posts. Thanks for a clear and concise description that even I can understand. Johnathan

Posted by VBlew:
I played with the Avia disk on Sunday and could not get the black moving bars to show up at all on that part of the disk. The black is always black and the grey is grey, but no moving bars.

This indicates a problem with your source as I see these bars fine through my HTPC and my RP56 dvd player. Incidentally, I end up with brightness settings of about 50-55 with this test. I usually slightly bump it up.

Brian

Originally posted by VBlew
awtryau89,

When you set up your Custom3 tweek what is the sharpness set to? and is the iris set to Auto?
I'm going to make these settings on mine and see what it looks like.

I played with the Avia disk on Sunday and could not get the black moving bars to show up at all on that part of the disk. The black is always black and the grey is grey, but no moving bars.

I'm running a Sony SLV-D300P DVD Player component out through a Pioneer Elite VSX-52TX, the projector is 22 feet back, projecting onto a 165"diagonal screen(DIY made from Dazian Celtic Cloth) it looks really good. The front row is at 11' but they recline and the normal viewing is 13'.

Call me crazy for running this projector on such a large screen, but it is affordable and we like to sit in the front row in big theaters.


Vance

See pics of my theater at photos.yahoo.com/vblew

Sharpness is at 35. Iris Auto. I would check your black level setting on the DVD. Mine is set to 0IRE and yours may be set to 7.5 IRE and crushing the blacks.

larsil,

My screen is a 106" diag Dalite HCCV. The projector is about 15 feet back from the screen and ceiling mounted. I ran the King Arthur material through my HTPC (3.0Ghz P4 with ATI9600 video card, using MCE2005 with Dscalar5) and used a toshiba DVD player to watch the rest.

Brian

Originally posted by VBlew
awtryau89,

When you set up your Custom3 tweek what is the sharpness set to? and is the iris set to Auto?
I'm going to make these settings on mine and see what it looks like.

I played with the Avia disk on Sunday and could not get the black moving bars to show up at all on that part of the disk. The black is always black and the grey is grey, but no moving bars.

I'm running a Sony SLV-D300P DVD Player component out through a Pioneer Elite VSX-52TX, the projector is 22 feet back, projecting onto a 165"diagonal screen(DIY made from Dazian Celtic Cloth) it looks really good. The front row is at 11' but they recline and the normal viewing is 13'.

Call me crazy for running this projector on such a large screen, but it is affordable and we like to sit in the front row in big theaters.


Vance

See pics of my theater at photos.yahoo.com/vblew
Vance, were you over at Brian's house the Saturday before last? And welcome to the AVS forums!

The thing is, me not being an UK or US user I’ve still been reading this forum and also an UK one which contain the most information about Sony’s new LCD projector. From all the posts gathered in both these forums I get the distinct feeling that the HS551/50 is in short supply on both markets.

Then, I started to look for it here, in Portugal, and it cannot be found. It’s like I am in a search for a “ghost projector”. Sony dealers have them on their price lists, but are short of stock. A few were sold by the end of November/beginning of December but now, nothing, “nada”, zilch...They don’t seem to able to come up with a date for new projectors in “stock”, not even with a prospect date to have this information.

Because of my profession, I have to be in Madrid the whole day tomorrow. I contacted Sony Spain to find out where I could see a demo and guess what? It is also out of the market in Spain!

Now, if I reason well, these kind of new products are marketed to be in a steady good supply flow rate by Christmas so something really strange has happened here. Small markets like ours are deprived of any units, possibly in an effort to supply stronger markets at “ear drop” rate.

There can be a few explanations for this, some of them quite simple and mundane. On the other hand, this can also be an intentional production halt to deal with some serious problem with the projector.

If the latter is the case it is a really bad omen for both existing and prospective owners.

As a group, I think we should start flooding Sony national representatives in each country with a query regarding this. I already emailed Sony Portugal about it, although if the their customer support lives to the myth, I might as well seat waiting for a response...

If you do, please mention that this query was originated in the “net” and their reply will be posted here and other “forums”. Companies tend to jitter when this kind of “class action” is mentioned...

AK

(I am aware of the rumor about this that started to run around in the US. One more reason for us to try to clarify the situation. We could work some kind of “pre-formatted” query template so they could see this as a coordinated effort.)

Ferret,

If you want to get a translation of a review, go to the website and the review page and copy 4 or 5 words in the sentence that contain the model. So for example I went to cine4home and under the Panasonic AE700 review and copied:

"Nachfrage nach unserem PT-AE700"

from the web page. Then go to google and do a search on what you copied. It will return with the web page you want and then click translate and now you can read the review.

Oh, I know that works, but I'm lazy. :) But, I will do exactly as you suggested as I want to read the review. A partnership with someone in the states for the benefit of an American/English version of Cine4home is greatly desired.

I just wanted to post again and let people who are looking at this projector know that the "brightness issue" is a red herring in my opinion for anyone with a light controlled room. If anything, I find myself wishing I could tone down the whites at times, and save a filter I cannot. Being a CRT guy I am used to a very movie theater like picture with whites that don't hurt the eyes and at times they do just that with the HS51 and a 1.3 gain screen.

I also experimented last night with SDE and it was amazing how just one or two feet in either direction makes the SDE snap out or back into view for me. The 1.5 X width is really almost the precise dividing line where it starts to dissapear. Beyond 1.75 I do not see it at all but I do occasionally see what I would call FPN (fixed panel noise), or I think I see it. At 2X width the image is buttery smooth with no discernable sde or FPN that I can see.

This was all using my worst source last night btw, a Pani RP56 dvd player outputting interlaced. It was considered good about four years ago in progressive mode. The picture is markedly improved with my HTPC.

The one thing I really enjoy about this projector is the 3-d image it produces due to the (relatively) deep blacks. This is the first digital I have seen where the picture did not look like a washed out 2-d image. And I have seen several dlp's at this point (though never in my home, always in some crappy store where its apparent they don't know how to set them up).

Brian

P.S: Ferret, I saw that presentation room at Fry's you were talking about the other day and almost needed to take a shower immediately afterwards. They looked to be shooting a Sharp 12000 on a 4X3 screen via composite or svideo with a 16:9 movie letting the image spill over the sides of the screen and having the lights wash out the image. It was totally revolting to my AVS Forum senses...

The Ferret,

I was not at Brian's....
I have been following AVS for years, this is my second theater and much improved over the last one. It is nice to see others in Georgia with the same passion for this hobby. I am a huge lurker, getting all that I can to contribute to the project. I will probably be more active now that the construction is done.

We have watched about 15 movies since we got the projector last Tuesday and have been playing with it some making minor adjustments.

We are noticing when you put up a test pattern of cross hatch that the red seems to bleed to the right and up, and the green is a little to the left. Seems like a convergence issue and I only remember seeing one post about something like this. Has anyone seen convergence controls for the panels? I had this problem on a 3 gun RPTV previously and with the test patters and the service options could make the adustments, but LCD projections is a different animal to me.

Thanks,

Vance

Woot! I just got the call from my dealer that my projector is in and is being shipped out :)

Screen and mount are not yet installed, but as soon as everything is up and running, I will post my findings!

Vance, are you talking about that 1280x720 black field with the five (5) 1-pixel by 1-pixel white squares? If so, can I assume that you did this by connecting a computer? Mind if I ask if you used 720P (1280x720 desktop) or used PowerStrip to feed 1080i (interlaced 1920x1080 desktop)? If not, which pattern and transport did you use.

Is 1080P24sF the proposed system for the Blue ray or HD-DVD formats?

Originally posted by usabrian
I just wanted to post again and let people who are looking at this projector know that the "brightness issue" is a red herring in my opinion for anyone with a light controlled room. If anything, I find myself wishing I could tone down the whites at times, and save a filter I cannot. Being a CRT guy I am used to a very movie theater like picture with whites that don't hurt the eyes and at times they do just that with the HS51 and a 1.3 gain screen.


Brian,

If I recall correctly, you have a 100" diagonal 1.3 gain screen?

Do you have the ability to widen the image out to 121" diagonal (106" wide)? I know that will surpass the boundaries of your screen, but what is showing on the screen would be the brightness I would be seeing on my target screen size.

I have complete light control (can't see my hand in front of my face when the lights are off), and your comments are pushing me towards taking a chance on ordering the HS51 sight unseen. (I'm trying to save myself about $2,000 by buying this instead of a Sharp 10k)

I'd be curious to know if the projector can illuminate that larger size and still give you that same positive impression of picture quality. My seating distance will be approx. 14 feet, so any judge of SDE at that distance would also be appreciated.

If I could just see this thing, I could get one really big monkey off my back... :)

Originally posted by BigScreen

I have complete light control (can't see my hand in front of my face when the lights are off), and your comments are pushing me towards taking a chance on ordering the HS51 sight unseen. (I'm trying to save myself about $2,000 by buying this instead of a Sharp 10k)

Scott Jentsch, why would you pit the Sony VPL-HS51 against the Sharp XV-Z10000 when you can seriously consider the Sharp XV-Z2000 which has the HD2+ (Z10K has the HD2) that is closer to the Sony's pricing?

Not trying to dissuade you against the Sony, but surprised what you are comparing it to.

hey, the next problem on top of my misalignment issues!

outlining/ringing

i see it on everything i put into this hs50. i am only using component right now, and don't have access to an HDMI player or an HDMI cable for that matter. so far;

old Panasonic A-120 DVD player, 480i thru component
xbox 480p thru component
Samsung HD1000 DVD player, 480i/480p/720p/1080i thru component

had them going through yamaha rx-v2400 receiver, but have tried going straight from dvd player, and there is still ringing everywhere. sharpness has slight impact, but currently at 0, still there and annoying. is there anything i can do, or should i return my samsung and buy an hdmi player? and a 35ft. HDMI cable of course. can any of you see ringing on HDMI inputs? component inputs? this projector will be getting returned shortly because of the misalignment problem, so if this problem is specific to this projector, i will wait til i get a new projector for final judgement.

eric

Eric, there are several selectable modes for 'black'. What happens if this is set to off? Also, someone noted that with sharpness increased from zero to 35 his comparisons were dramatic in terms of ringing being introduced. This may have been in this threead or the tweak thread.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Scott Jentsch, why would you pit the Sony VPL-HS51 against the Sharp XV-Z10000 when you can seriously consider the Sharp XV-Z2000 which has the HD2+ (Z10K has the HD2) that is closer to the Sony's pricing?

Not trying to dissuade you against the Sony, but surprised what you are comparing it to.


Mostly because of throw distance of the Sharp 2k (10.5-16'), which would put it out in the middle of my room. This factor, and BenQ's complete lack of customer service skills, has ruled out the BenQ 8700 for me.

Also, from initial reports, the 2k has quite a bit of fan noise which would be bothersome, especially if it would have to placed directly above my primary seating position.

I can place the 10k at the back of my room on a shelf, which gets it out of the way and the fan noise that I observed from a 10k in a semi-quiet dealer demo room was not offensive.

Finally, the 2k isn't anywhere to look at. For that matter, neither is the HS51, which is why the 10k is at the top of my list right now. I've been able to play with the 10k and get a fantastic picture from it, and if I wanted to, I could bring it home today. That ranks pretty high in my book, as this is my first projector purchase, but the cost differential is the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger. If I could discount the HS51 like was able to do with the InFocus 5000, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the 10k after the first of the year.

I can get the HS51 via mail order, which has been tempting, but buying something like that sight unseen doesn't sit well with me, and I'm too chicken to take the risk to buy it and then try to sell it myself if I don't like it.

I haven't contacted my local dealer in almost two weeks because of the Christmas holidays plus trying to finish putting finish items on my room. I told myself that I wouldn't make a decision until the room was actually ready to park a projector in it, and was hoping that would coincide with CES press releases and any possible price breaks and/or rebates.

I'm often amazed at the level of flexibility I have in accommodating things I could tame into submission.

So, a hishbox is out of the question? Is the room decor of higher priority? Just continuing to be curious, as you would not be the first to mention throw-distance & forward-mounted projector (and intolerable hushbox options) as something that will not be entertained.

Ok, just thought I would ask. :) BTW, I will be using a quote-unquote hushbox, but for me it has nothing to do with sound. It just solves another concerned issue. Will you be considering the 10K as B-stock or new?

Originally posted by usabrian
I just wanted to post again and let people who are looking at this projector know that the "brightness issue" is a red herring in my opinion for anyone with a light controlled room. If anything, I find myself wishing I could tone down the whites at times, and save a filter I cannot. Being a CRT guy I am used to a very movie theater like picture with whites that don't hurt the eyes and at times they do just that with the HS51 and a 1.3 gain screen.

Regarding the "brightness issue"... How far away is the PJ and what size screen? Does that matter? My screen will be ~80" wide and the PJ about 13' away. My room will not be 100% light controled. Any thoughts?