OFFICIAL Sony HS50(51) thread [Text View]

greighn

09-11-04, 08:45 AM

Here is the text of Sony's press release at CEDIA for the HS51:

SONY UNVEILS 3LCD HIGH-CONTRAST CINEZA PROJECTOR

New Model has up to 6000:1 Contrast Ratio

INDIANAPOLIS (CEDIA, BOOTH #330), Sept. 9, 2004 - As consumer demand for home theater equipment expands, Sony Electronics has developed the next-generation Cineza® front projector equipped with the latest 3LCD panel.

The new VPL-HS51 model is equipped with an advanced iris function, enabling the projector to dynamically adjust the video image according to the level of the input signal. This results in high contrast ratio of up to 6000:1, along with reproduction of the most subtle details. The HS51 also incorporates three proprietary 720p LCD panels that provide 2,764,800 pixel resolution (1280x720) optimized for HD video input.

"Consumers have come to expect more from home entertainment technology and want a projector that stands apart from what is used in the office," said Mike Fidler, senior vice president of Sony Electronics' Home Products Division. "The HS51 is a powerful projector that will accurately reproduce DVD and high definition sources with high brightness and full contrast."

Easy to Use Features

The new model is ideal for home applications thanks to its versatile cabinet, lightweight design and easy-to-use features. Picture position (both horizontal and vertical) can be easily adjusted with the lens shift function, which expands the projector's placement and installation options without distorting image quality.

An All Range Crisp Focus (ARC-F) lens and Real Color Processor (RCP) further enhances colors and images. The color of each hue can be adjusted independently for a customized picture. The 1.6x zoom lens allows for a short throw distance, with the option to project on screen sizes of 40- to 200 inches.

An advanced 12-bit panel driver is included for high color graduation. It also has a new HD I/P converter that improves not only NTSC video conversion but high-definition signals as well. Additionally, the HS51 model's unique fan design generates a low level of noise for extremely quite operation.

Numerous inputs are also provided, including an HDMI interface that allows copy-protected, high-definition video content to be delivered from a DVI/HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) compatible set-top box.

The VPL-HS51 is also supplied with Image Director 2 software, enabling gamma adjustment via a PC connector. Image Director 2 works in conjunction with Sony's Real Color Processing (RCP) for precision picture adjustment.

Finally, VPL-HS51 is equipped with an Ethernet connector for complete AV system integration via IP Control Protocol.

The new projector will be available in October for about $3,500.

suffolk112000

09-11-04, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by PBonn
I wouldn't worry about the loss in resolution, based on my comparisons using the HD Net test patterns, output by the HD TIVO connected by DVI to both a Samsung 720p DLP RP and the Sony HS-20, at both 720p and 1080i.
Horizontal resolution is basically the same on both systems at either 720p or 1080i. Vertical resolution actually worsens using 1080i!

Fill factor may be another issue, though. By defocussing my HS-20, I can't detect SDE at 1.5 screen width, and I have confirmed no loss of resolution using the HD Net test pattern.

Paul

Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??
Any one care to elaborate?
Still... I am looking forward to all the opinions of this PJ.

Craig

Stereodude

09-11-04, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by suffolk112000
Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??
Any one care to elaborate?
Still... I am looking forward to all the opinions of this PJ.

Craig
If Sony reads this forum they're probably pulling their hair out right about now.

One of the big complaints about the HS20 was the goofy WXGA resolution. So, they go to 720p so they don't have to scale 720p anymore and people are complaining about the decrease in resolution.

I guess you just can't win.

mnn1265

09-11-04, 11:11 AM

I'd really like to know if the EDID on the HS51 is bad like on the HS20... considering that this is Sony I'll be they messed it up again.

lee eiseman

09-11-04, 11:35 AM

In the context of the automated iris discussion I would like to propose two new terms for the rating of contrast.

1. Cumulative Contract which measures contrast over a time period long enough to account for modulation of the auto iris. This by the way subverts the intent of the director by altering the intended ratio of bright to dark scenes.

2. Instantaneous Contrast which would determine the overall contrast within a still picture. In other words, if an image were half black and white and unchanging, the iris could not modulate, and the Instantaneous Contrast ratio would be much lower-- the ratio of the panels themselves.

tollo2000

09-11-04, 11:47 AM

Truly sad that Sony has decreased resolution. In PC gaming it has been a priviledge to use full 1024x768 resolution without scaling. Games that give the option for 1280x720 are very few. It would have been wiser to include a driver for 1366x768 resolution - so people could have dumped the Powerstip which is a pain (if you update the graphic card driver you need to readjust the resolution).

Stereodude

09-11-04, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by lee eiseman
This by the way subverts the intent of the director by altering the intended ratio of bright to dark scenes.
No it doesn't.

Say a dark scene has a maximum brightness of 25% of the projectors capability. A normal projector leaves the light alone and using only the bottom 25% of the panels capability to product the scene

Now the Sony can reduce the output from the light by 75% and then use the full capability of the panel. The brightest objects in the scene are still the same brightness as the other projector, but the blacks are several times darker.

leckian

09-11-04, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by JPinTO
Here's a first hand report of the HS51 thanks to RAN:

"I would summarize my day by calling it "LCD is back". The headline refers to the new Sony HS51. This thing rocks! The sony has a dynamic Iris which does a wonderful job in bringing out very rich and dark blacks. The contrast spec on this is 6000:1 and it seemed on par with my Sharp 12K. Sony was using a 100" Fire-Hawk screen for some reason. I was under the impression that a 1.3 would have done a better job for brightness as Blacks were terrific with out the help of the screen. LCD's other big problem, screen door, is still an issue and the fact that this has less pixels than the HT series only contributes to it. Some forum members who have seen this and spoken to me about it commented on the problem of the SD though for me it wasn't such a big problem."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444810

I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.

JPinTO

09-11-04, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by leckian
I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.

Interesting comment about the colors, a typicaly strong suit of LCD. The prices are finally dropping on the HD2+ with Sharps 2000, MSRP $4500.

Ohlson

09-11-04, 12:36 PM

Its opposing views like these here that makes you go mental. You have to see everything for yourself. Who can you trust?

leckian

09-11-04, 12:37 PM

The prices are dropping on the DLPs but you can get a 720p LCD for less than 2K which is a great deal.

drpp

09-11-04, 12:42 PM

No that's not necessarily true, Stereodude, and BTW how can you be so sure that they will do exactly that? In your example it coudl fit fine, but there are a lot more sceneries where you could not work that simplistic. I assume that they will do something very similar to Panasonic, which means they will adjust the iris per frame, or frame groups, and then apply some sort of gamma correction per frame if necessary (that's what Panasonic does) to "avoid a dim and dull picture". So the objective brightness of any given point is now also related to APL. That means that the luminace distribution per frame might be very well changed, if for example parts of the picture are already 0IRE and 100IRE...

Look at Panasonics example. Black sky, earth in front and stars in the background: Space will be likely 0IRE, stars should be 100IRE and earth somewhere in the lower 20th. If the auto-iris mode chooses the smallest iris position to maximise the black of space, you cannot make the stars any brighter, because intra-panel-CR is already maximal. So if you make earth brighter (via gamma correction) to avoid a dim picture, you will change the luminace distribution of the frame. Definitely should the scene look different on a CRT which has room for deep blacks and bright stars. Most probably nobody will notice that in this example, but I can imagine a few scenes where you WOULD notice it. But luckily not many movies include such scenes. The following is just an example (!): Imagine a white square, first pixel-sized, on a totally black background, becoming larger and larger till it fills the complete screen... This will certainly lead to visible brightness changes of the black background and the white square when auto iris function is used...

--Peter

Joe Schwartz

09-11-04, 12:46 PM

Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??For a home-theater projector (as opposed to a computer-presentation projector), it makes much more sense to have a resolution that exactly matches one of the standard HDTV broadcast resolutions (720p). And it's much easier (and cleaner) to scale 1080 lines down to 720 than to 768.

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Ohlson
Its opposing views like these here that makes you go mental. You have to see everything for yourself. Who can you trust?

IMHO
I discount people who have pre conceived biases.
I give more weight to people who are more experienced and have been right in the past.
I give more weight to people who who own good pj and can compare the image to their device.

Remember the Qualia saga.

Stereodude

09-11-04, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Remember the Qualia saga.
Yeah, what a piece of crap! ;)

Stereodude

09-11-04, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by leckian
I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.
I think we know where to file your opinion...

DLP bias getting in the way? ;)

Ursa

09-11-04, 02:48 PM

A good EDID will be a determining factor as to whether this gets considered for my HT.

Later,
Bill

mike.cf

09-11-04, 02:57 PM

So far I count about 5 to 1, pros vs cons. Still early yet but Rogo and Ran offer pretty good reviews and I think they are pretty solid contributors on the >3500 forum.

leckian

09-11-04, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Stereodude
I think we know where to file your opinion...

DLP bias getting in the way? ;)

The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.

Stereodude

09-11-04, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.
What you meant to say is that the consensus is that DLP has a better CR than LCD. You also meant to say that there are no expensive LCD HT projectors. Don't mistake expense for "high end". The only real problem with LCD has been the CR. They (LCD) have better colors than the single chip DLPs. From other reports it seems the HS51 doesn't have VB, and is near the CR of a good HD2+ DLP (Sharp 12k). So, the only problem left is the screendoor. MLA and a little defocus will take care of that.

IMHO LCOS and LCD are going to put the squeeze on DLP, unless TI gets the cost down on 3 chip units.

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.

leckian here is a post from someone who owns a Sharp 12k, arguably the finest 720p dlp on the planet, (only the Marantz guys could argue!)

Ran Sharp 12k owner said
"That pretty much sums it up for me. I came in looking for a replacement for my 12K and I may stick around to see if Sharp has anything new come CES or perhaps ¡§downgrade¡¨ to the HS51 and sit tight for a change in resolution."

carlton Bale 12S1 owner said
"I was also very impressed with the Sony HS51. I stood in the very back of the viewing room and did not notice any screen door. I thought the black levels and contrast were better than my Marantz VP-12S1 (720P HD1 DLP) projector. I don't have rainbow issues so I've been a fan of DLP because of the deeper blacks and better contrast. However, at a list price of $3500 and with the horizontal and vertical lens shift feature, I'm thinking this may be my next projector. Scaling of 480i material may be it's weakness though.
"
Rogo said
"I don't think the HS51 has the CR of a 12K, but I was surprised at how relatively close it might have been.

The ANSI is better on the 12K (and DLP in general), but the HS51 is impressive nevertheless.
"

leckian

09-11-04, 04:08 PM

mnn1265

09-11-04, 04:16 PM

For some it would seem the HS51 may not be as versitile as the HS20... In this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444814) early report the HS51 didn't have a DVI input... that would be a big negative for me if production models don't have one. I can see why a 1280x720 may be attractive to many but when using an HTPC the extra resolution availble with the HS20 can in some instances be useful. While I use 1280x720 resolution with my HS20 I do like having the extra available for some applications...

A good EDID will be a determining factor as to whether this gets considered for my HT.

Later,
Bill I have to agree completely as I'm a NVidia card owner. My guess is this lack of a DVI input is probably just the case for the demonstration unit but if it isn't available on the production models the EDID bug won't be nearly the issue...

AnthonyP

09-11-04, 04:16 PM

Yes, I understand this. My only question is... "How dim will it look?" I don't care how often it happens. I just want to know if you get that... "Hey.... did my bulb just lose half its brightness" kind of feeling.

You have to understand how the eye works. What happens if you close or open the lights in a room. As soon as you close them everything goes black until your iris adjusts, the opposite is true when the opposite happens (you go blinded and it takes some time to see the details in the brightness. What happens is the eye does not have instantaneous contrast perception, but the iris adjusts the amount of light that goes through so that we see the most detail for any amount of brightness. If this works, then it is doing the opposite, so white on a black scene would look white and black on a white scene should look black

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segemnt color wheels produce jsut as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.

It looks like the other CEDIA attendants, some themselves top line dlp owners, saw the quality of the HS51s image, you say "the consensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT"

AnthonyP

09-11-04, 04:29 PM

The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor.

DLP has had better CR and blacks, but not better greyscale, shadow detail has always been much better for LCD and LCoS. I don't know if this has brought the LCD to the level of top DLP, but since others compare it to top of the line DLPs it does mean that it definetly competes with the cheaper DLPs that is the area we are comparing. Now will someone make a DLP on steroids that widens the gap again? maybe, but sayng just because LCD managed to make an affordable projector that has jumped leaps and bounds does not mean that DLP will make the same (but does not mean it won't either)

Ran

09-11-04, 04:46 PM

Hey Guys,

I think I should drop in seeing I’m being often quoted on this post.

Anyway, I’m not going to get into an argument with people thinking the HS 51 was not that hot. I will however offer this for your consideration. For the last 4-5 years I had these following projectors: Sony 10HT, Sharp 9K, Sim 300+, Sharp 10K and now the Sharp 12K. I think I have quite the experience when it comes to checking out a DLP picture. I should also mention that after upgrading my Sony 10HT to the Sharp 9K I never bothered to try out any new LCD’s.
The HS-51 in my eyes and based upon the numerous demos I attended in the last couple of days is a completely different story. I would say that if it had a price tag of $10K I would easily see it as my next projector. psychologically it’s hard for me to believe that this equals and in some ways outperforms my 12K. For that reason alone I’ll probably check it out prior to swapping it with my 12K.

The HS 51 had what I call a dynamic picture which was partly due to very good blacks, terrific contrast and adequate brightness. Sure, perhaps if you put the HS51 side by side with my 12K the latter will have a lower light reading while in 0IRE field, but its picture is not as exciting, at least to my eyes.

Screen door is an issue, but this was such a small room it couldn’t simulate a true HT environment. I guess that if you stood a little further this would become a non issue.

One AVS guy, which I’m not going to mention his name asked the Sony rep:”How come they are selling the HS51 for less than the Qualia?” Obviously this was a joke, but you know what they say about the truth element found in every joke.

This is a sensational piece regardless of its price and it will sell like hot cakes.

Ran

AnthonyP

09-11-04, 05:04 PM

Ran, I for one appreciate you taking the time to post. I don't think anyone doubts what you are posting

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 05:11 PM

Ran
Sony is proberbly reserving the $10k to $15k price point for their SXRD (non Qualia branded) FP. They just announced a 70" XBR RPTV using 1920x1080 SXRD panels for "under $10k"

A 1920x1080 SXRD based fp using the HS51's dynamic iris may be the stepup from the Sharp 12k you are looking for.

Thanks for the CEDIA reports, and safe trip back home!

Stereodude

09-11-04, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segment color wheels produce just as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.
FANBOY AHOY!

or should it be man overboard???

mpjohnst

09-11-04, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by AnthonyP
DLP has had better CR and blacks, but not better greyscale, shadow detail has always been much better for LCD and LCoS.
I would agree with the comment above in relation to LCOS vs. DLP but not LCD vs. DLP. In my opinion, DLP has considerably better shadow detail than LCDs. The same can be said, LCOS has considerably better shadow detail than DLPs. As you correctly pointed out, CR and shadow detail should be critiqued separately. On all LCD PJs I've viewed so far, dark scenes usually end up in a black blob when compared to DLP or LCOS. That's my experience anyway...
-Matt

drpp

09-11-04, 06:12 PM

Thanks Ran, I am looking forward for a demo of the new Sony HS51. BTW did anyone ask if Sony intends to include this dynamical iris into other units?

--Peter

mpjohnst

09-11-04, 06:41 PM

Before we jump all over Leckian here for stating his opinion...lets not kid ourselves about LCDs... they do have problems. I own a Panasonic L300u (AE300) and while I love it to death there are some things I'd like to fix.

Contrast Ratio -- My black levels and shadow detail are ok but I would love better. All reports of the HS51 lead to this aspect being vastly improved. GREAT

Screen Door -- Its easy to say "just defocus" but, realistically, the technology lags both DLP and LCOS in fill factor. Some are more susceptible than others (just like rainbows) but we don't need to pretend it isn't an issue. For the record, I can see screendoor even on 720p DLPs at 1.5x.

Vertical Banding -- The Epson panels definitely have it, I can prove it with my PJ. Luckily this doesn't bother me too much... but I do notice it from time to time. How the Sony fairs.... it hasn't really been reported yet but it looks positive.

Fixed Pattern Noise -- I got that too :D Also an inherent problem of LCD. VB and FPN can be adjusted on LCOS via software like Dillard so it is correctable. Jury is still out on the Sony, hopefully their Image Director 2 software has adjustments for these issues...

Color Uniformity/Panel Degradation -- Everyone blasted the TI report as being biased which stating DLPs last longer than LCDs, imagine that.... but you know what, they were right in my case. I've only owned my PJ 1.5 years now. It started out great (confirmed through testing with a white field on Avia) but about 6 months ago I've developed a yellow patch in the upper right and a really obvious red patch covering my whole lower left. Believe me IT SUCKS. Granted, most people don't really notice it but I see it every time I watch a movie. Every time! This one pissed me off bad and almost had me saying goodbye to LCD forever.

Anyway, I'm still an LCD owner and I wouldn't object to another one if they can make some serious in roads to some of the problems above. The fact of the matter is every technology has issues, they just might not be "your" issues. Just because someone prefers DLP images to LCD doesn't mean they are a FANBOY as Stereodude so eloquently put it. They might just find the above problems too objectionable to seriously consider them. How many LCD fanboys scream RAINBOW at any given opportunity :D
-Matt

P.S. I'm a technology slut. I'll use anything that'll give me a great image at a good price (or maybe I'm a cheap slut then!).

PAP

09-11-04, 07:56 PM

Please do NOT turn this thread into a DLP vs. LCD bashfest - what a total waste. You like DLP, fine, happy for you. You like LCD, fine, happy for you. I've used both and am looking for an LCD so that's why I'm here. I couldn't give a rat's ass about some lamely defined "consensus."

If you love DLP and are not interested in this projector, then how about stop reading this thread and post in another, eh?

gps

09-11-04, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by PAP
Please do NOT turn this thread into a DLP vs. LCD bashfest - what a total waste.

THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !!! THANK YOU!!!!
I'm interested in this thread to stay on topic, which is peoples impressions and experiences with the new HS-51.
Greg

PAP

09-11-04, 08:08 PM

So anyone other than Cousin's taking orders yet? Anyone heard any ship dates?

Utopia

09-11-04, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segment color wheels produce just as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.

Buyers remorse setting in? You could have saved 9k, but of course you will never admit it and will just keep bashing LCDs in an attempt to convince yourself you didnt waste your money. If you have nothing to say besides LCD isn't as good as your overpriced DLP go do it in another thread.

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 08:46 PM

mpjohnst
The issue with leckian is not that LCD have deficiencies. His comments suggests that his perceptions of LCD prevented him from "seeing" the HS51, unlike some of the other reviewers.

Utopia
leckian has stated that he is a panny 500 owner :-)

Gus

09-11-04, 08:59 PM

We all want to know to what degree this projector is an improvement over what we had. I'm interested because I want to buy one. I want to know how the HS-51 performs!!

So far, the closest thing we have is Ran's report.
Leckian's report is obviously biased and worthless. It's like asking a Red Sox fan who his favorite Yankee is.

Gus

mpjohnst

09-11-04, 09:00 PM

HoustonHoyaFan-
I understand what you are saying but I'm just defending Leckian a bit (a long standing and contributing member). Just because he didn't "see" what we all wanted him to doesn't make his opinion invalid. He's stated his bais and he's weighed in his opinion. Lets leave it at that.

PAP-
Do you want reviews of the HS51? Or do you only want positive ones :D There have only been like 5 people who have reported after seeing this PJ. Asking him not to post his opinion because he didn't like it is just plain silly. I want to know what EVERYONE who saw this projector thought, good or bad.
-Matt

rlindo

09-11-04, 09:18 PM

I like the cut of this pj's jig based on what I have read. I may consider picking one up early next year if its CR turns out to be super high. Or, I may just wait for a 1080p version hopefully next year that will be under 10 grand. :)

HoustonHoyaFan

09-11-04, 09:32 PM

mpjohnst
I hear you. I am not saying his opinion is invalid. The disparity between his report and the others is so great that it certainly makes the opinion worthless.

PAP

09-11-04, 09:45 PM

I want ALL the reviews, but statements like the consensus is that DLP is superior are useless and inflamatory.

Just the facts, maam.

mnn1265

09-11-04, 11:37 PM

From what I've read they have in fact dropped the second digital input (DVI) for the HS51 and replaced it with VGA... for me this very disappointing and probably enough to eliminate it from my list of possible upgrades for my HS20.

EHUFF

09-12-04, 12:09 AM

They may have dropped DVI on the HS51, but it has HDMI. If I'm not mistaken HDMI is compatible with DVI. All you need is a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI Cable. After a google search........

DVI to HDMI Cables here:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_cables.html

Adapter:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_adapt.html#fmhdmi

mnn1265

09-12-04, 12:49 AM

They may have dropped DVI on the HS51, but it has HDMI. If I'm not mistaken HDMI is compatible with DVI. All you need is a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI Cable. After a google search........ Oh sure you can buy cables and adapters but that's not the point...

Where does your HTPC output connect? Well, it has to be the HDMI port because there is no DVI. Well, I currently have my HTPC connected to my HS20 via DVI---->HDMI (because of the EDID bug) which is a real pain in the ass because HDMI only supports very restricted resolutions as input. This means you're out of luck trying to use powerstrip to get rid of overscan at higher resolutions like 1280x720 (which most will want to use). So now where does my HDTV programming connect? What about those using DVD players with DVI/HDMI? For those that want digital quality inputs it is a real drawback... I wouldn't settle for VGA.

leckian

09-12-04, 12:53 AM

I have not attacked anyone or their opinion. I have stated mine and if you don't agree fine but there is no need for name calling and insults. I am interested in LCD because my last 3 projectors have been LCD because of their value. I like LCD but I happen to think DLP produces a superior HT picture. I am very confident if there were a poll posted in both digital projector sections that the results would support my statement regarding the "consensus". To those who have attacked or attempted to ridicule my statements and claim I have a bias I would say that the voracity of response would indicate that you too have a bias. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion or bias and sharing ideas not insults is what I think this forum is supposed to be about.

mnn1265

09-12-04, 01:05 AM

Let's all get along and get back to the subject at hand... the HS51.

EHUFF

09-12-04, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by mnn1265
(because of the EDID bug) which is a real pain in the ass because HDMI only supports very restricted resolutions as input. This means you're out of luck trying to use powerstrip to get rid of overscan at higher resolutions... I wouldn't settle for VGA.

I'm not familiar with the EDID bug. I guess we'll have to wait and see if we can adjust for overscan with a 720p signal to 1:1 mapping on the HS51 itself like the Hitachi TX100 can.

mnn1265

09-12-04, 02:26 AM

I'm not familiar with the EDID bug. Lucky for you! The HS20 EDID is incorrect/incomplete and thus you can't use the DVI input at any decent resolution (or at any 16:9 aspect ratio) if you use a NVidia video card... extremely annoying to say the least.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if we can adjust for overscan with a 720p signal to 1:1 mapping on the HS51 itself like the Hitachi TX100 can. Yes, I'll be very interested to find that out myself. It'll could be very tricky with the single HDMI digital input available - we'll have to see. I'm more than a little pessimistic about it since 1280x720 is "supported" via HDMI with the HS20 and yet has an ugly overscan from a HTPC. Though of course the HS51 may be completely different...

reaper

09-12-04, 09:08 AM

I attended CEDIA on yesterday and can offer a few impressions of the new HS51. About 2 weeks ago, I saw the HS20 at a HT store here in town and I also spent quite a bit of time with the AE700 at their hotel showroom yesterday. I do not own a projector. So, my thoughts represent one with limited experience. So, take them as you may. One other word is that I am extremely sensitive to rainbows, so I am none too fond of DLP.

I entered Sony's HS51 display room with some initial disappointment. The room was tiny and triangular. The point of the demo was to stress how flexible the machine was for installations. They had the machine waaay off center of the screen and were using lens shft liberally to get the image on screen properly. Of course, lense shift is becoming common place and it worked well.

Looking up at the unit, the only light I saw coming from it emitted from the lens or the lighted Sony sign on the top side of the projector. Not bad. They claim 24dB. And to be truthful, I could not hear any noise coming from the projector. However, I am only 5'5" and on the CEDIA showroom floor. So, I was not very close to the thing and there was a lot of ambient noise.

The image on screen was very bright. The blacks seemed deep to me even during bright scenes. I was immediately impressed by the image and drawn into it. They said they were showing 1080i scaled to 720p by the projector. It looked very clean and crisp.

In comparison to my memory of the HS20, this projector was quite an improvement. The blacks were much better, IMO. The image seemed brighter at the same time. However, we're comparing 2 projectors in 2 different environments here. So, it's probably of little value. But my opinion is that it would be worth upgrading if you really want better blacks. Beyond that, an HS20 owner should still be happy with their purchase.

I spent about 30-45 minutes with the AE700 as well. They had it set up at the show but it was on the showroom floor and there was not much to really be determined by viewing it in this manner. So, I made my way over to the Crown plaza and viewed it in their hotel room setup.

The first thing I noticed was that the AE700 by far has the most film like presentation. That smoothscreen technology seemed to remove any trace of pixel structure. The image had a slightly soft look in my opinion, but some may prefer this look. I am not sure which I prefer. I loved how smooth the screen looked but I also liked the sharpness of the HS51. So each to his own. They were showing Vertical Limit on the AE700 from a 480p DVD source. They also had some 1080i coming off a HD of some kid dancing in some black shoes. I have no idea what that movie was.

I noticed 2 things. During bright scenes, the projector looked pretty darn good. I liked to colors although the colors on the HS51 seemed more vibrant than the AE700. I immediately thought, this is a projector I'd be proud to have in my home. But after a while, I started to feel dissatisfied with the brightness. I noticed that during dark scenes, the projector just seemed very dim to me. They kept showing these people inside some ice cave of some sort and the image seemed to clamp the brightness down quite a bit. I never saw this on the HS51. Although, I don't think they showed any similar scenes on the HS51. So, perhaps the 51 would do this as well.

Overall, I just felt that the 51 had more pop than the 700. The colors seemed better, the blacks deeper, the brightness... well brighter. This could have been a source material difference as well. But my money is on the 51 being th better unit... and well, it's a grand more right? So, big surprise.

So, I am trying to decide what to buy around Christmas. To me the decision comes down to how much screen door affects you and how well these perform on dark scenes. I think they are both great units but my personal preference is with the 51 at this moment.

So, I hope that helps some people get a better sense of what we saw. I took some pics as well, but haven't had a chance to look at them yet. If anything is worth posting, I'll alert you guys.

reaper

Gordon Groff

09-12-04, 09:59 AM

Thanks Reaper, Ran, and even Lekian for your reports from the show!

One open question still for the HS51. Does it use a MLA or not? I'm a (mostly) happy Sanyo PLV-70 owner and MLA tech is great for screendoor reduction - when properly focused. If so, I'm wondering from the reports that it may have been "differently" focused at the show. I would not be surprised if the folks conducting the demo did not know how to deal with a MLA if it does, indeed have one.

If there is no VB and it has a good MLA setup, this PJ could be make a pretty big splash in the HT scene!

Gordon

AnthonyP

09-12-04, 10:09 AM

nice review reaper.

JPinTO

09-12-04, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by mnn1265
Lucky for you! The HS20 EDID is incorrect/incomplete and thus you can't use the DVI input at any decent resolution (or at any 16:9 aspect ratio) if you use a NVidia video card... extremely annoying to say the least.

Will it work with an ATI?

Monkey_Man

09-12-04, 11:43 AM

reaper:
Have you ever seen VB? If so did you notice any degree of VB in either unit?

Gus

09-12-04, 11:58 AM

Leckian,

I did not mean my comments as an attack on you. Although upon re-reading what I said, I can see why you would be offended and I apologize. The point is that the way you worded your review, well, disqualifies you in my opinion from the pot of worthy information. Not because you didn't like it, but because you mainly and only used the old standard generalizations about LCD vs DLP that we have all heard a million times. This type of rhetoric has never ever helped anyone make a decision.

You didn't say things like "the contrast seems to be about 700:1" or "it seemed dimmer than my DLP" Those are comments we could use to make our purchase decision. Things approaching "LCD blows" or "I'd like to nominate TI for pope" can't help us buy or not buy an HS-51.

Gus

Edit: Also, I'd like you to know that I'm also disregarding any obvious "fanboy" comments from my consideration. Things like "This is the best projector ever built" or "this beats a Qualia" will be ignored as well. So I'm not definitely looking for sugar coating. Lie someone already said: "Just the facts, maam."

mnn1265

09-12-04, 12:22 PM

Will it work with an ATI? Yes. The EDID bug effects NVidia video cards because NVidia software/drivers forces adherence to the EDID settings - which are wrong for the HS20. However, even some ATI cards may use EDID settings so it's not a guarentee your not going to have some problems with the bad EDID. Also, Panasonic and some other brand HDTV's also have bad EDID's...

reaper

09-12-04, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Monkey_Man
reaper:
Have you ever seen VB?

Yes

If so did you notice any degree of VB in either unit?

No

reaper

reaper

09-12-04, 04:07 PM

BTW, I asked how they measured 6000:1 contrast and they said it ws a full bright white screen for max brightness in comparison with a full black scene. It was not a scene with intermixed checkerboard patterns or anything.

I asked why they rate theirs at 6000:1 when the AE700 employs the same tech and only rates it at 2000:1. I got a response that they do not know what Panasonic is doing in their proj or how they are measuring their contrast.

I asked what the differences were in the new LCD panels vs the old... they said they did not know except for the different resolution.

I asked what the bulb wattage was and they said 130W I think... ... it was 130 or 140... somewhere in that ballpark.

Sorry I am not an expert and cannot offer any definitive reviews like rogo might. I just thought my impressions may be of some help. I definitely would not say that the AE700 was even demonstrable on the showroom floor and understand why that review was suspect. It was very washed out and the 51 blew away their showroom floor demo. That's why I spent so much time at the crown plaza.

Anyways, these are just some impressions from a normal dude that wants to buy himself a projector this Christmas .

One last note of interest. I saw just about every booth offering projector demos anywhere near this price range. I skipped booths like Runco. But I did see some of the $10,000 DLPs and other high end LCDs like the Epson 500. I don't know if this means anything to you guys, but the HS51 was the only projector that I kept wanting to go back and see again and again. I feel a bit ashamed. But I ended up in their 51 booths a total of 4 times throughout the day to see it. It has been on my mind since the show... I find myself constantly thinking about how I will scrounge up the extra cash to affford it

reaper

Pipelion

09-12-04, 04:30 PM

Thanks Reaper ,Ran and Rogo.

Allan

suffolk112000

09-12-04, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by reaper

Anyways, these are just some impressions from a normal dude that wants to buy himself a projector this Christmas .

It has been on my mind since the show... I find myself constantly thinking about how I will scrounge up the extra cash to affford it

reaper

Great review Reeper... actually it is sometimes the less technical reviews of the projectors that are the most helpful. I would like to see more opinions like yours.

Craig ;)

Docray1

09-12-04, 08:56 PM

I own the HS-20 and I believe screendoor effect is less pronounced than on the HS-51 I saw at CEDIA. Whether this relects a lack of MLA I dont know. Some of this could also be due to the setup of the unit and the use of a Sony screen material ( I use a Firehawk) , but I came away unimpressed. The real stars at CEDIA were the Qualia 04 (again) and the new 70" Qualia rear projector at $10k.

bapenguin

09-12-04, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by mnn1265
Yes. The EDID bug effects NVidia video cards because NVidia software/drivers forces adherence to the EDID settings - which are wrong for the HS20. However, even some ATI cards may use EDID settings so it's not a guarentee your not going to have some problems with the bad EDID. Also, Panasonic and some other brand HDTV's also have bad EDID's...

this is supposed to be fixed in the next driver release. That is, they will allow the option to turn off EDID syncro.

csedaniel

09-12-04, 09:52 PM

Reaper,

Thanks for the detailed reviews. I've got a few questions for you. Can you confirm the screen sizes used for the 700 and the 51. Also, I am a little confused about what type of screen the 700 and 51 were demoed on. I think I remember reading in a post somewhere that the 51 was on 100" Firehawk and the 700 was on a 120" + screen(unsure of screen color or brand) Just speculating that the firehawk would (of course) deepen the blacks and saturate colors of the 51. If the 700's screen was a matte white 1.0 gain, that might contribute to the advantage in the blackness of blacks and superior colors that you said the 51 exhibited over the 700. And lastly, the larger screen size of the 700 would result in a lower level of brightness and contrast v the 51 on a smaller screen.

Again, thanks for your willingness to share with us what you saw.

Daniel

rogo

09-12-04, 10:52 PM

reaper, I think your comments have been great...

---------------

As for this unrelated comment (unrelated to reaper, that is), "Instantaneous Contrast which would determine the overall contrast within a still picture."

That already exists. It's called ANSI contrast and is easily standardized and measured if you can make the room or test area very dark.

Obviously, whatever technology is being employed does not change ANSI contrast, aka "simultaneous contrast ratio".

Oh, and I doubt you will be able to buy this projector anywhere before November...

ericeash

09-12-04, 10:52 PM

any pics of the HS51, either screen shots or of projector? the only one i've seen is the one on the press release page.

mnn1265

09-12-04, 10:57 PM

this is supposed to be fixed in the next driver release. That is, they will allow the option to turn off EDID syncro. I'm curious as to how you became privvy to this information? I've been fighting this problem along with JGene and others for some time and have not heard that to be the case...

I really hope it is true!

Docray1

09-13-04, 12:52 AM

I thought the Sony was shown on their new screen material because I didnt see the Stewart Logo anywhere on it and because when I saw it there was a split-screen type demo to illustrate the deeper blacks with their material. I didnt question a lot of the details because I own an HS-20 and just was not very impressed with the replacement.

AnthonyP

09-13-04, 01:04 AM

Rogo said in a post that there were two HS51 presentations one in a room with the black screen (to show what the black screen can do) and one with a normal screen (to show what the HS51 can do)

what did you see? if only the first it might explain the difference between the reviews

Docray1

09-13-04, 01:13 AM

The one I saw showed the HS-51 projecting onto a screen made of 2 seperate materials; 1 which was described by a sales rep as the new Sony 'black' screen material, the other a standard white based material. The black level was great on the 'black' material side and clearly better than the 'white' side. However, I noted more screen door effect on BOTH relative to my hS-20 on the Firehawk.

HTCrazy

09-13-04, 04:15 AM

Yep, the two HS51 demo's were side by side. The demo on the Firehawk wasn't as impressive as it could have been, since the room was too small front to back to get to a 1.5 seating distance. So most people in the room were looking at artifacts and screen door galore that you get from a 1.0 seating distance or less.

PAP

09-13-04, 10:12 AM

This screen door discussion is really scaring me - I have a hs51 on order but plan to sit about 10.5 feet from a 108" wide 2.35 screen (82" 16:9 masked). Is everyone saying the SD is worse on this new projector than the hs20?

And if so how does the price of the new panny compare then?

Docray1

09-13-04, 10:23 AM

I own an HS-20 and sit 10' away from my 100" Firehawk. SDE is non-existent on mine. I saw the HS-51 at CEDIA as I noted earlier and SDE was very visible on the unit at the show. Obviously a side-by-side comparison would be helpful because its hard to say how that unit was set up. Others who viewed it apparently have had the same conclusion. Buying an HS-51 wouldnt be a mistake, but for me I would not even consider it as an upgrade to the HS-20. If you can buy an HS-20 at a good discount, I'd also suggest that as a consideration.

leckian

09-13-04, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by PAP
This screen door discussion is really scaring me - I have a hs51 on order but plan to sit about 10.5 feet from a 108" wide 2.35 screen (82" 16:9 masked). Is everyone saying the SD is worse on this new projector than the hs20?

And if so how does the price of the new panny compare then?

That is not quite 1.5x screen width and would make SDE visible for me which is one the characteristics that I didn't like when I saw this projector. Screendoor is an issue on other LCD projectors I saw as well. I believe you would be better off with the AE700 with the smooth screen tech unless you have the flexibility to sit back a little further if necessary. If you read comments re SDE it is clear that there is a great deal of variation in people's visual acuity. I was a non-believer in Panasonics smooth screen tech until I saw it first hand and was very pleasantly surprised at how well it works. Even during white film credits in a field of black shows no screen door at all.

noah katz

09-13-04, 12:07 PM

"I own an HS-20 and sit 10' away from my 100" Firehawk. SDE is non-existent on mine. I saw the HS-51 at CEDIA as I noted earlier and SDE was very visible on the unit at the show."

Can you tell us how the SD looks on your HS20 when viewed from the same distance as you saw the HS51?

Thanks

William Mapstone

09-13-04, 12:51 PM

The reported SDE is also making me nervous, being a 10HT owner looking for an upgrade. I can understand the benifet of native 720P resolution, but LCD needs all the pixels it can get. If you can keep the screen size reasonable the SDE will not be an issue, but I like to use as big a screen as possible for gaming.

Docray1

09-13-04, 02:20 PM

SDE was MUCH more evident to me at similar distance on the HS-51; the variable here is I dont know how the HS-51 was set up/focused relative to mine which is calibrated and optimally focused.

Gus

09-13-04, 02:27 PM

Makes sense.

HS-20 has MLA doesn't it? It also has more pixels. So unless Sony made some serious improvement in the fill factor of these panels, the HS-51 is bound to have more screen door. This projector sounds like it's not a good choice for people sitting less than 1.7 x screen width. Given that, I wonder what the reason is for the short throw lens.

Gus

reaper

09-13-04, 02:53 PM

1.7x sounds a bit much to me. When I moved back to the back of the room, screen door became much less apparent and that was only about 1X the screen width, I'd guess. A little more than that and I'd say you probably would not be able to see it... maybe 1.2-1.5x. But I didn't take any measurements, so that is just a guess on my part. You may be right.

reaper

HoustonHoyaFan

09-13-04, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Docray1
SDE was MUCH more evident to me at similar distance on the HS-51; the variable here is I dont know how the HS-51 was set up/focused relative to mine which is calibrated and optimally focused.

It sounds like you did not see the HS51 /Firehawk demo only the HS51/ ( 75/25 blackscreen/white screen )demo ?

What was your viewing distance from the split screen?

could the increase in SDE over the HS20 be blackscreen related ?

Stew4msu

09-13-04, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by leckian
That is not quite 1.5x screen width and would make SDE visible for me

10 feet back on a 108" wide screen is only 1.1x. IMO that's too close for almost any LCD projector.

Stew

csedaniel

09-13-04, 05:26 PM

reaper,

just in case you missed it, can you respond to my earlier post(#97).

thanks,
daniel

reaper

09-13-04, 05:48 PM

You're gonna hate me now. I can fill in one of the gaps for you about the 700 but not about the HS51. I asked what screen material we were watching at the 700 demo and wrote it down. It was a DaLite HCCV screen. He said it was 100" wide and approximately 115 inches diagonal.

I agree with your comments about the potential for the screen material to affect the apparent color and brightness. I will whole heartedly recc that the definitive comments must come from someone other than me who has the chance to demo these in a single controlled environment.

Maybe someone else can specifically comment about the screen size and material for the 51? I have a guess but it's not worth spouting useless guesses...

reaper

Originally posted by csedaniel
Reaper,

Thanks for the detailed reviews. I've got a few questions for you. Can you confirm the screen sizes used for the 700 and the 51. Also, I am a little confused about what type of screen the 700 and 51 were demoed on. I think I remember reading in a post somewhere that the 51 was on 100" Firehawk and the 700 was on a 120" + screen(unsure of screen color or brand) Just speculating that the firehawk would (of course) deepen the blacks and saturate colors of the 51. If the 700's screen was a matte white 1.0 gain, that might contribute to the advantage in the blackness of blacks and superior colors that you said the 51 exhibited over the 700. And lastly, the larger screen size of the 700 would result in a lower level of brightness and contrast v the 51 on a smaller screen.

Again, thanks for your willingness to share with us what you saw.

Daniel

Fidelity

09-13-04, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by reaper
You're gonna hate me now. I can fill in one of the gaps for you about the 700 but not about the HS51. I asked what screen material we were watching at the 700 demo and wrote it down. It was a DaLite HCCV screen. He said it was 100" wide and approximately 115 inches diagonal.

I agree with your comments about the potential for the screen material to affect the apparent color and brightness. I will whole heartedly recc that the definitive comments must come from someone other than me who has the chance to demo these in a single controlled environment.

Maybe someone else can specifically comment about the screen size and material for the 51? I have a guess but it's not worth spouting useless guesses...

reaper

stewart firehawk, 100"

Gus

09-13-04, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by reaper
1.7x sounds a bit much to me.

reaper

That was a typo. I meant 1.5x See what I get for surfing AVS while trying to get some work done?:D

Gus

PAP

09-13-04, 09:52 PM

The page *LINK DELETED* states the hs51 -does- have MicroLensArray.

Can any of our Cedia friends affirm or deny this?

EDIT: Guys! Don't post dealer links with pricing!

Docray1

09-13-04, 10:02 PM

I cant confirm or deny MLA on the HS-51 but that link seems like a Sony reprint; its probably true. It doesnt change the fact that the HS-51 as set up at CEDIA showed more SDE than I get on my HS-20. Whether the cause was the resolution drop, the screen material or how it was set up remains an open question, but the increased SDE WAS there.

William Mapstone

09-14-04, 12:43 AM

Whether the cause was the resolution drop, the screen material or how it was set up remains an open question, but the increased SDE WAS there. I noticed more SDE on the other 720P LCD's, so my guess is it is due to the resolution drop. But I am remaining optomistic and can't wait to see it in person so I can make my own judgement...

rezokl1

09-14-04, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by ericeash
any pics of the HS51, either screen shots or of projector? the only one i've seen is the one on the press release page.

I have one on my desktop, but I cant remember where I got it.

Check google!

Gordon Groff

09-14-04, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by PAP
The page LINK DELETED states the hs51 -does- have MicroLensArray.

Can any of our Cedia friends affirm or deny this?

Thanks for the link, PAP! Confirms the MLA, as well as something called:

"All Range Crips Focus Lens" Which "delivers an 8% improvement in focus to the center of the screen and a 20% improvement in focus to the corner of the screen. "

I hope "Crips" is a typo :) and the rest of the posting is accurate.

If so, I'm suspecting that whoever set this thing up focused it .very carefully, and very wrongly, :( bringing the screendoor into painfully sharp focus all the way out to the "corner of the screen".

Could be wishful thinking, but I can't see any reason why this unit would show so much more pronounced SDE than the HS20 if it has MLA. Hard to believe that the minor loss in resolution would cause it. MLA focus technique is not intuitive and easy to focus on the wrong thing.

I know I'm joining the throngs of folks just guessing, but am trying (hard!) to not get concerned about the SDE thing until we can get reports from folks who have experience with this setup.

Gordon

reaper

09-14-04, 07:50 AM

the focus improvement discussed at the link is real. The Sony rep told me about it in person. That adds some credence to the rest of the link, notably MLA.

reap

blipszyc

09-14-04, 08:05 AM

Any word on official MSRP?

Gordon Groff

09-14-04, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by blipszyc
Any word on official MSRP?

EDIT:
MSRP is OK but dealer pricing is against the rules.
Link Deleted.
Kyser

PAP

09-14-04, 09:51 AM

The link I posted above was mostly for information as it listed a ton of info about the projector. It did also include a price, but that was not the focus of the posting. I didn't mention the price in my post, but apologize if it was inappropriate.

Kysersose

09-14-04, 09:55 AM

If you want to you can cut and paste the info. Just leave out the pricing and the dealer that you got it from.

Sorry, but rules are rules. No links to dealer sites that contain pricing.
MSRP is OK but that site was taking orders and had street pricing listed.

Nexus6

09-14-04, 09:58 AM

To me (an HS10 owner) it is not the CR number that is most impressive (inflated or not) but the reported noise level... 24db should be nearly silent. A little screen door I can live with, sharper optics are never a problem, the lens shift is a nice feature. The step down in resolution isn't great, but 1366x768 wasn't exactly standard. For the price they're asking, compaired to the HS10, it's tempting.

Now, if I had an HS20 (much quieter, better CR) I don't know if I'd be as excited. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to upgrade. But then again, the evolution from the HS10 to the HS20 wasn't that big of a difference either. Every year the improvements seem to be evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Oh, and this is kinda neat:

"* ImageDirector (Gamma Control Software) : ImageDirector 2 enables Gamma adjustments to the VPL-HS51 via connection to a PC. Adjustments can be seen in real time and personal preferences can be stored in the PC for future use. ImageDirector also works in conjunction with the Real Color Processing (RCP) function for precise picture adjustment."

PAP

09-14-04, 09:58 AM

Ok, I didn't want to post such a long list of stuff, but if that is the preferred way, I have copied the info below (taken from another website):

HS51 SPECIFICATIONS

General

Power Requirements : 100 to 240V, 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption : Max. 260W, Standby 5W
Acceptable Signals : (Video) 15kHz RGB/Component 50/60Hz, Progressive component 50/60Hz, DTV (480/601, 575/501, 480/60P, 575/50P, 720/60P, 720/50P, 1080/601, 1080/501), 1080/24PsF, Composite video, Y/C video
Acceptable Signals : (Computer) RGB: Horizontal 19~72kHz Vertical: 48~92Hz
Maximum Input Signal Resolution: WXGA (1280 x 768 fV:60Hz)
Operating Temperature : 0 to 35 Degrees C (32 to 95 Degrees F)
Operating Humidity : 35% to 85%
Color System : NTSC, PAL, SECAM, NTSC 4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N, PAL60
Inputs and Outputs

VD : Vertical Sync: TTL Level
Sync/HD : Composite Sync: Composite Sync: TTL Level Horizontal Sync: TTL Level
Component/Progressive : G with Sync /Y: Phono type;
B/Cb/Pb: 1Vp-p+/-2dB Sync negative, 75 ohm;
R/Cr/Pr: 0.7Vp-p+/-2dB positive, 75 ohm,
0.7Vp-p+/-2dB positive, 75 ohm,
Video Composite : Phone Type 1Vp-p+/-2dB Sync negative, 75 ohm
HDMI : High Definition Multimedia Interface Digital RGB / YCb(Pb)Cr(Pr)
Y/C Input : Mini DIN 4-pin Y: 1Vp-p+/-2dB Sync negative C: Burst 0.286Vp-p+/-2dB (NTSC), 75 ohm or 0.3Vp-p+/-2dB (PAL)
Video Composite : 1Vp-p+/-2dB Sync negative, 75 ohm
USB: Mini USB-B
Trigger : Power On: DC 12V, output impedence: 4.7 kilohms.
Power Off: 0V (mini jack)
SUPPLIED ACCESSORIES

Instruction Manual
Remote Control (RM-PJHS50)
Air Filter (PK-HS10FL)
AA Battery x 2
OPTIONAL ACCESSORIES

Replacement Lamp (LMP-H130)
Replacement Air Filter (PK-HS10FL)
Suspension Support (PSS-610)
WEIGHT

12.57lbs (5.7kg)

APPROXIMATE DIMENSIONS (WXHXD)

13 3/4" x 5 3/8" x 14 1/8" (348 x 135 x 360mm)
Limited Warranty: 2 Years Parts and Labor

©2004 Sony Electronics Inc. All rights reserved. Features and specifications are subject to change without notice. Sony, and Cineza are trademarks of Sony. All other trademarks are property of their respecitive owners.

* Lamp Control Low. Advanced Iris ON.
*ANSI lumen is a measuring method of the American National Standards Institute IT7.228. Since there is no uniform method of measuring Brightness, specifications will vary among manufacturers

Cinema Black Pro (with Advanced Iris Function and Lamp Control)
High Contrast Ratio of up to 6000:1 (Advanced Iris Auto Mode ON)
Lens Shift Function
All Range Crisp Focus Lens (ARC-F Lens)
Real Color Processing Function
1.6X Zoom Lens
Three WXGA LCD Panels, .73" p-Si TFT Panels
Resolution: 1280 x 720 (x 3) or 2,764,800 Total Pixels
Lens: 1.6 Times Manual Zoom / Focus Lens (F2.4-3.1 / f21.3-34.1mm)
Standard Lens Throwing Distance: 40" - 1.2m-1.8m; 60" - 1.8m-2.7m; 80" - 2.4m-3.7m; 100" - 2.9m-4.6m; 120" - 3.5m-5.5m; 150" 4.4m-6.9m; 180" - 5.3m-8.3m; 200" - 5.8m-9.2m
HD/IP Converter
Ceiling or Table Mount Capable
Improved Lamp Life Up to 3000 Hours
HDMI Digital Interface
12 Bit Panel Driver LSI
LCD Panel with MicroLens Array (MLS) and Wide View (WV) Film
Gamma Control Software (ImageDirector 2)
Ethernet Connection
FEATURES

Convenience

Input Channel Switching
General

Optical Engine Power: : 800 ANSI Lumen*
Cinema Black Pro Modes : Iris Control:
Auto - 1,000:1 ~ 6000:1 Contrast Ratio
OFF - 1,000:1 Contrast Ratio
ON - 1,300:1 Contrast Ratio
Input Video Signals: : 480i/480p/1080i/720p
Scanning Frequency: : fh 19-72khz, fv 48-92hz Up To XGA VESA85
Acceptable Video Signal: : 15kHz RGB/Component 50/60Hz, Progressive Component 50/60Hz, DTV (480/60i, 575/50i, 480/60p,
575/50p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 1080/60i, 1080/50i), 1080/24PsF, Composite Video, Y/C Video Acceptable Computer Signal: : RGB - Horizontal 19-72KHz (SVGA), Vertical 48-92Hz, Maximum Input Signal Resolution: XGA (1024 x 768 fV:85Hz) 1280 x 720 fV:60Hz; 1280 x 768 fV: 60 Hz
Color System: : NTSC, PAL,SECAM, PAL-M, PAL-N
Interface Audio Input: : Stereo Phono Plug
Ultra Quiet Fan (24db)*
Lamp: 130W UHP Type
Screen Size: 40-200"
Composite Video Input
S Video Input: Mini DIN 4 Pin
Innovative Cabinet Design
Inputs and Outputs
Ethernet Connection (RJ-45) 10Base-T / 100Base-TX

Video

HD I/P Converter
Key Technologies

Advanced Iris Function : This function reproduces bright images in bright scenes and deeper blacks in dark scenes by dynamically changing the opening according to the level of input signal. Working with the Micro Lens Array and WB (Wide View) film a 4.5 times improvement in Contrast Ratio can now be realized over previous models. In the "Auto" mode an awesome Contrast Ratio of 6,000:1 can now be achieved.
Lens Shift Function : This function adjusts the picture position both vertically and horizontally to allow for off center positioning and very flexible installation options. It uses the full panel to maintain the best possible Resolution and highest possible picture quality.
ARC-F (All Range Crips Focus) Lens : The All Range Crips Focus Lens delivers an 8% improvement in focus to the center of the screen and a 20% improvement in focus to the corner of the screen.
RCP (Real Color Processing) : Real Color Processing allows the user to target specific colors on the picture and fine adjust their color and hue without changing the overall picture's color and hue. For instance, the color of a strawberry can be fine adjusted without impacting the skin tones. Or the blue in a sky can be adjusted without affecting the color of water. And green grass can be adjusted without influencing the other colors in the picture.
Full Digital Processing : Sony's Full Digital Processing circuits include a number of processes designed to optimize picture performance of any input source.
The 12-Bit Panel Driver achieves excellent gradation reproduction and a high level of detail.
The I/P Converter attains a sharp image and superior diagonal line reproduction. It can also process HD I/P Conversion resulting in a precise and high density image. A significant improvement in SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO is also realized.
ImageDirector (Gamma Control Software) : ImageDirector 2 enables Gamma adjustments to the VPL-HS51 via connection to a PC. Adjustments can be seen in real time and personal preferences can be stored in the PC for future use. ImageDirector also works in conjunction with the Real Color Processing (RCP) function for precise picture adjustment.

PAP

09-14-04, 10:00 AM

BTW, nobody has mentioned the ethernet function. The press release says something about complete control via ethernet. Can anyone speculate what this might mean? Control of all functions via htpc? Auto zoom and reposition via htpc for changing from 16:9 to 2.35 screen size? That would be awesome!

Gordon Groff

09-14-04, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Gordon Groff
EDIT:
MSRP is OK but dealer pricing is against the rules.
Link Deleted.
Kyser

Oops! Sorry Kyser! My first moderator intervention. :)
Appreciate this site and no problem w/the rules.
Gordon

Stew4msu

09-14-04, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by PAP
Standard Lens Throwing Distance: 40" - 1.2m-1.8m; 60" - 1.8m-2.7m; 80" - 2.4m-3.7m; 100" - 2.9m-4.6m; 120" - 3.5m-5.5m; 150" 4.4m-6.9m; 180" - 5.3m-8.3m; 200" - 5.8m-9.2m
.

This is good news for me. According to this you can have a 120" diagonal screen (I'm assuming those are diagonal numbers) from 18 feet back. This is about the same size screen I was planning to have with an HS20 from about the same distance back. If I decide to get the 51 instead, I shouldn't have to alter my projector location.

Stew

A. Vandelay

09-14-04, 12:06 PM

Does anyone know the range of the lens shift in the vertical direction? Can the lens be higher than the top of the image or is the top of the image the max it can be shifted?

Kysersose

09-14-04, 12:15 PM

No problem Gordon...

A. Vandelay, your first name wouldn't be "Art" would it? :D

JDLIVE

09-14-04, 01:12 PM

So with the change in resolution, the 56Hz problem is not an issue, but we won't know about 1:1 mapping since we lost the DVI input and may be subject to bad EDID?

Furious

09-14-04, 11:29 PM

Looks like Canada is getting the HS50 and not the HS51. We just got a sample HS50 in today. Cosmetically it was quite ugly, lighter colored grey case, ugly front grill. Only got a glimplse of it in SD as the HD dish couldn't be installed in time. Anyone know if there is a feature difference between the two? I'll see if I can get the 50 back home for some testing. Odd...

mnn1265

09-15-04, 12:08 AM

So with the change in resolution, the 56Hz problem is not an issue, but we won't know about 1:1 mapping since we lost the DVI input and may be subject to bad EDID? The EDID doesn't effect anything using HDMI - well not on my HS20 anyway. I use the HDMI to work-around the EDID bug... I'm using 1280x720 from DVI--->HDMI without any problem other than the overscan.

I think it's a real negative that they dropped the DVI input on this projector... the two digital inputs was a significant part of the reason I bought my HS20. I think I'll definitely be waiting for the next model (HS70?) to upgrade. If that is they return the DVI input...

lonniehansenjr

09-15-04, 01:20 AM

mnn1265,

I read your reply in HTPC thread about nvidia card problems with the HS20. Did the new beta drivers help (8-23-04)?

I have a new Sony VAIO HTPC with nvidia GEforce 5200 and want to purchase either the Sony HS20 or the HS51. I just filled my HTPC with digital pictures and soon will copy all of my home videos and want to display them on a projector.

Did you compare the analog VGA hookup vs. the DVI to HDMI digital hookup?

Should I wait for reviews with the HS51 with the nvidiabecause of all the problems with the HS20?

O'Doush

09-15-04, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by mnn1265
I think it's a real negative that they dropped the DVI input on this projector... the two digital inputs was a significant part of the reason I bought my HS20. I think I'll definitely be waiting for the next model (HS70?) to upgrade. If that is they return the DVI input... [/B]

Its not only that but for those of us who have ceiling mounted our HS20 with the 30 foot DVI cable, we're sc*wed as we have to re-punch the plaster to add another FRIGGING cable up the wall and along the ceiling.

God, DVI is not that old already, is it !?!?

By the way, there was NO 30 ft HDMI cable back in Dec 03.

Nice one Sony...not.

drpp

09-15-04, 03:48 AM

Just a second Furious, did I read that correctly, there IS a HS50? Can you please confirm this, this would be most interesting as I always thought, there would be no HS50. Originally a german page pre-offered the HS50, but after Cedia they changed it to HS51 and the specs changed too to 1280x720...

rogo

09-15-04, 05:25 AM

O'Doush, you get cable adapters. Relax, OK?

deandob

09-15-04, 07:17 AM

Can someone confirm the lumens output of the HS51? Early reports had it at 1500 lumens, but the latest CEDIA reports say 800. I want to use the HS51 on a larger screen but 800 lumens will not deliver enough punch.

Regards,
Dean

suffolk112000

09-15-04, 08:32 AM

Where is the HS51 going to be sold at on line? Is AVS going to sell it? I would like to see some actual pricing.

Craig

Kysersose

09-15-04, 09:20 AM

suffolk112000, we don't discuss pricing or dealers on this forum.
Shoot AVS a PM or email if you're interested in the HS51.
MSRP is the only price allowed to be discussed.

JPinTO

09-15-04, 09:37 AM

Whose going to be the guinea pig to let the rest of us know how this thing is going to work (or not) with a HTPC?

JDLIVE

09-15-04, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by mnn1265
The EDID doesn't effect anything using HDMI - well not on my HS20 anyway. I use the HDMI to work-around the EDID bug... I'm using 1280x720 from DVI--->HDMI without any problem other than the overscan.

Thank, I was trying to remember the exact nature of the problems, since I'm an HS10 owner, I haven't dealt with HDMI yet.

I think it's a real negative that they dropped the DVI input on this projector... the two digital inputs was a significant part of the reason I bought my HS20. I think I'll definitely be waiting for the next model (HS70?) to upgrade. If that is they return the DVI input... [/B]

I agree, it's disappointing. I'll be waiting with interest to read the reviews as they come out. I didn't find enough pluses to upgrade to the HS20, HS51 sounds like it might be worth it, but I may hold off for another round as well.

HTCrazy

09-15-04, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by deandob
Can someone confirm the lumens output of the HS51? Early reports had it at 1500 lumens, but the latest CEDIA reports say 800. I want to use the HS51 on a larger screen but 800 lumens will not deliver enough punch.

Regards,
Dean

Well I had concerns about its brightness too. While going through the menu's with the Sony rep at CEDIA, I noticed they were demoing in high lamp mode. The rep said it was because they were trying to counter the effects of the gray Firehawk screen.

Huh? Firehawk has a positive gain. Nice try. I had him try low lamp mode, and the presentation became pretty drab, but he switched it back fast before I had time to really inspect it.

Maybe this is important, maybe not. I know if I were displaying my HS10, I'd want high lamp mode on too for best effect. But light output on the HS51 DOES need further scrutiny before you buy IMO. BTW, the rep said it was rated at 1200 lumens.

mrlittlejeans

09-15-04, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Kysersose
No problem Gordon...

A. Vandelay, your first name wouldn't be "Art" would it? :D

and are you an architect in NYC?

Does anyone know about the vertical lens shift on this? If the top of the screen could be lower than the lens (in ceiling mount), this would be a good candidate for me and a high power.

HTCrazy

09-15-04, 01:32 PM

Yes, in the demo, the HS51 has a ton of flexibility with lens shift. The demo was mounted way off to the side, and below the top of the screen. Coupled with its good zoom, you can put this thing about anywhere.

rogo

09-15-04, 02:03 PM

"Firehawk has a positive gain. "

Sort of, but only dead on.

---------------------------------

"If the top of the screen could be lower than the lens (in ceiling mount), this would be a good candidate for me and a high power."

It can't be. The projector needs to be inside the screen "footprint."

inky blacks

09-15-04, 02:20 PM

What is the real contrast ratio of the HS51? As the 6000 to 1 spec is a hoax, what do you think the real numbers are. 1500 to 1?

IB

reaper

09-15-04, 02:47 PM

I don't think anyone brought their measurement equipment to the show nor would have been allowed to use it.

reaper

drpp

09-15-04, 02:49 PM

Well it depends on your definition: Sony is certainly correct to state that the HS51 reaches up to 6000:1 on/off with auto-iris, and I do not doubt that, so I don't think it's a hoax. They just didn't change ANSI contrast a bit. The question is if the PJ is still usable when the mechanism is driven that extreme. But still I think some 3000:1 is realistic to expect. I had some exchanges about if this is real on/off or not and I understand both positions: a) it is on/off when you don't change PJ settings inbetween, but the PJ adjusts the iris itself or b) on/off requires a fixed iris position so no traditionel on/off but on/off WITH auto-iris on. Some may say that b) is pedanterie and maybe they are right, but surely a PJ with the same on/off without auto-iris would throw a better picture...

If the auto-iris is disabled something around or above 1k~1.3k is realistic. And what remains if the PJ is calibrated to D65 with auto-iris is open...

darinp2

09-15-04, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by rogo
"Firehawk has a positive gain. "

Sort of, but only dead on.
Yep. In that room the Firehawk definitely had a negative average gain. I'll guess 0.8 or less average from most viewing positions.

--Darin

HTCrazy

09-15-04, 03:22 PM

My bad, I always ass-umed Firehawk was a positive gain since its gain is rated at 1.3. As always specs can be misleading. Since the projector was off at a major angle, I can see how it might have been an issue. Still, I'd like to see the HS51 in a normal environment on the low bulb setting.

iamrandyray

09-15-04, 03:22 PM

anyone know a date of release for the hs51?

HoustonHoyaFan

09-15-04, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by inky blacks
What is the real contrast ratio of the HS51? As the 6000 to 1 spec is a hoax, what do you think the real numbers are. 1500 to 1?

IB

This is sony's specs from the cousins site

Optical Engine Power: : 800 ANSI Lumen*
Cinema Black Pro Modes : Iris Control:
Auto - 1,000:1 ~ 6000:1 Contrast Ratio
OFF - 1,000:1 Contrast Ratio
ON - 1,300:1 Contrast Ratio

*Lamp Control Low. Advanced Iris ON.
*ANSI lumen is a measuring method of the American National Standards Institute IT7.228. Since there is no uniform method of measuring Brightness, specifications will vary among manufacturers

That seems like pretty good full disclosure to me

ianken

09-15-04, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by O'Doush
Its not only that but for those of us who have ceiling mounted our HS20 with the 30 foot DVI cable, we're sc*wed as we have to re-punch the plaster to add another FRIGGING cable up the wall and along the ceiling.

God, DVI is not that old already, is it !?!?

By the way, there was NO 30 ft HDMI cable back in Dec 03.

Nice one Sony...not.

Folks, please. DVI ->HDMI adapters are readily available. HDMI is backwards compatible, all you need is a simple adapter. Google it.

I'm more pissed at the meager 800lumen.

darinp2

09-15-04, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by HTCrazy
My bad, I always ass-umed Firehawk was a positive gain since its gain is rated at 1.3. As always specs can be misleading. Since the projector was off at a major angle, I can see how it might have been an issue. Still, I'd like to see the HS51 in a normal environment on the low bulb setting.
No problem. Most people don't know about the quick dropoff with the Firehawk. While it might be close to 1.2 in the hottest spot in my setup, it is closer to 0.5 near the edges of the image. Fortunately, most people don't see the non-uniformity, but some do.

All high gain angular reflective screen (the Firehawk is a high gain layer combined with a low gain or gray layer) have pretty good dropoff towards the edges of the image unless the throw and viewing distance are pretty large. My High Power is much more uniform across the screen from a single viewing position, but this is within an area a few feet in front of to some reasonable distance behind my projector.

--Darin

rogo

09-15-04, 05:55 PM

Again, the release date is supposed to be next month, but given Sony's admission that projector isn't "done", I'm guessing November is more realistic.

As for how high the CR is, black was not "black" in the Sharp 12K sense of black. Although I believe it's fair to rate the CR of this projector in the Auto mode, there are unique attributes of it that will make the testing interesting.

If you look back to the January threads about Cast Away, this beast won't pass the tests the same way. But it's an on-off CR revolution for an LCD projector. And, yes, ANSI is unchanged and is not in the class of the better DLPs.

HoustonHoyaFan

09-15-04, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by rogo
Again, the release date is supposed to be next month, but given Sony's admission that projector isn't "done", I'm guessing November is more realistic.

As for how high the CR is, black was not "black" in the Sharp 12K sense of black. Although I believe it's fair to rate the CR of this projector in the Auto mode, there are unique attributes of it that will make the testing interesting.

If you look back to the January threads about Cast Away, this beast won't pass the tests the same way. But it's an on-off CR revolution for an LCD projector. And, yes, ANSI is unchanged and is not in the class of the better DLPs.

I would have thought that the all black screen from castaway may be the simplest test for the HS51. All it has to do is close the iris and mod the lamp all the way down?

Furious

09-15-04, 09:12 PM

That appears to be the case. The sample we received was marked HS50 (preproduction sample perhaps?). Also one of our buyers was told by the Sony people at Cedia that the HS50 would be available to Canada and the HS51 to the US. No particulars were given as to the differences, perhaps a market change issue? The grill design at the front looked different than the posted pics of the HS51 that I've seen. The OSD was identical looking to that of the HS20/HS3 in terms of layout, look, etc. Really didn't get much time with it at all...our sample came sans remote as well. It's all rather puzzling to me atm...

Originally posted by drpp
Just a second Furious, did I read that correctly, there IS a HS50? Can you please confirm this, this would be most interesting as I always thought, there would be no HS50. Originally a german page pre-offered the HS50, but after Cedia they changed it to HS51 and the specs changed too to 1280x720...

gps

09-15-04, 09:22 PM

Question ? Has anyone seen the HS-51's remote ? Is it the same or different ? I would be curious if Sony still has the one "Input" button that you have to cycle through to get each input.
Greg

GHafer

09-15-04, 09:55 PM

I'm considering the HS51 since my VPL-VW10HT is DOA, the prism block and polarizer both bad. The repair bill, since it's out of warranty, was estimated at 5K. Forget it. (I'm still working out the details with Sony's repair facility.)

I've been out of the projector forums for quite some time, but it looks like the throw distance is quite different on the HS51/HS20 than the 10HT. I have a 133" diagonal 16:9 screen, which the 10HT fitted perfectly. But from the calculator on projectorcentral.com, it shows that the HS51 cannot reproduce an image that size, even at 20 feet.

I'm not sure whether to trust those figures or not because the projectorcentral.com calculator was off by 5-6 feet for my 10HT. Any help?

Gary

p.s. I just heard from a dealer that the HS51 will be available on October 9.

joaquin

09-15-04, 10:32 PM

Evan Powell just posted his opinions...interesting...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2004.htm

Stew4msu

09-15-04, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by GHafer
I'm considering the HS51 since my VPL-VW10HT is DOA, the prism block and polarizer both bad. The repair bill, since it's out of warranty, was estimated at 5K. Forget it. (I'm still working out the details with Sony's repair facility.)

I've been out of the projector forums for quite some time, but it looks like the throw distance is quite different on the HS51/HS20 than the 10HT. I have a 133" diagonal 16:9 screen, which the 10HT fitted perfectly. But from the calculator on projectorcentral.com, it shows that the HS51 cannot reproduce an image that size, even at 20 feet.

I'm not sure whether to trust those figures or not because the projectorcentral.com calculator was off by 5-6 feet for my 10HT. Any help?

Gary

p.s. I just heard from a dealer that the HS51 will be available on October 9.

The throw distances are in post 128 of this thread.

Stew

Fidelity

09-15-04, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Furious
That appears to be the case. The sample we received was marked HS50 (preproduction sample perhaps?). Also one of our buyers was told by the Sony people at Cedia that the HS50 would be available to Canada and the HS51 to the US. No particulars were given as to the differences, perhaps a market change issue? The grill design at the front looked different than the posted pics of the HS51 that I've seen. The OSD was identical looking to that of the HS20/HS3 in terms of layout, look, etc. Really didn't get much time with it at all...our sample came sans remote as well. It's all rather puzzling to me atm...

if the OSD menu for the hs50 is the same as the 20 and 3 models, that is at least one difference between it and the 51, because the menu on the 51 at CEDIA was very different (including many color, etc. tweaks). i would talk to your rep and see what they say the dif.s are between the 50 and 51, we've found at least one already.

ricwhite

09-15-04, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Furious
That appears to be the case. The sample we received was marked HS50 (preproduction sample perhaps?). Also one of our buyers was told by the Sony people at Cedia that the HS50 would be available to Canada and the HS51 to the US. No particulars were given as to the differences, perhaps a market change issue? The grill design at the front looked different than the posted pics of the HS51 that I've seen. The OSD was identical looking to that of the HS20/HS3 in terms of layout, look, etc. Really didn't get much time with it at all...our sample came sans remote as well. It's all rather puzzling to me atm...

The HS50 was developed with Canadians in mind and, as such, has design elements that reflect the Canadian environment and architecture. The internal components have also been altered to be in line with the expectations and needs of Canadian people. They have different "issues" and expectations with images and Sony has developed the components to reflect this difference.

The HS51 is marketed to the US population and, as such, reflects with expectations of the US home theater population. Now some say that the US HS51 "looks better" than the Canadian "HS50." This MAY be true to a slight degree. However, If you look at the face of a Canadian and one of a US citizen, you may also see the same thing.

ricwhite

09-15-04, 11:56 PM

I have a Sony 10HT projector which, thankfully, is still working well. $5 K for repair. LOL LOL The 10HT projector, in good working condition, is only worth about $800.

I am looking to upgrade to a Sony HS51 (possibly). I am still pleased with my 10HT which has been tweaked to the max. But it still puts out a pretty good HD image. But what I'm hearing about the HS51 has really gotten my attention.

From what I read... the 10HT and HS20 (and probably the HS51) is "pretty close" in throw distance. When I was looking at the HS20, I calculated that it would be pretty close to the same location as my 10HT (120" diag. screen -- proj. about 15 ft back). They are all "short throw" projectors.

Originally posted by GHafer
I'm considering the HS51 since my VPL-VW10HT is DOA, the prism block and polarizer both bad. The repair bill, since it's out of warranty, was estimated at 5K. Forget it. (I'm still working out the details with Sony's repair facility.)

I've been out of the projector forums for quite some time, but it looks like the throw distance is quite different on the HS51/HS20 than the 10HT. I have a 133" diagonal 16:9 screen, which the 10HT fitted perfectly. But from the calculator on projectorcentral.com, it shows that the HS51 cannot reproduce an image that size, even at 20 feet.

I'm not sure whether to trust those figures or not because the projectorcentral.com calculator was off by 5-6 feet for my 10HT. Any help?

Gary

p.s. I just heard from a dealer that the HS51 will be available on October 9.

ricwhite

09-16-04, 12:02 AM

Here was the printed information on throw distance for the HS51

Standard Lens Throwing Distance: 40" - 1.2m-1.8m; 60" - 1.8m-2.7m; 80" - 2.4m-3.7m; 100" - 2.9m-4.6m; 120" - 3.5m-5.5m; 150" 4.4m-6.9m; 180" - 5.3m-8.3m; 200" - 5.8m-9.2m

Originally posted by GHafer
I'm considering the HS51 since my VPL-VW10HT is DOA, the prism block and polarizer both bad. The repair bill, since it's out of warranty, was estimated at 5K. Forget it. (I'm still working out the details with Sony's repair facility.)

I've been out of the projector forums for quite some time, but it looks like the throw distance is quite different on the HS51/HS20 than the 10HT. I have a 133" diagonal 16:9 screen, which the 10HT fitted perfectly. But from the calculator on projectorcentral.com, it shows that the HS51 cannot reproduce an image that size, even at 20 feet.

I'm not sure whether to trust those figures or not because the projectorcentral.com calculator was off by 5-6 feet for my 10HT. Any help?

Gary

p.s. I just heard from a dealer that the HS51 will be available on October 9.

GHafer

09-16-04, 12:10 AM

Eric,
The press release from Sony states that the HS51 can project from 40"-200" image. The release does not say if they mean width or a diagonal measurement. Enlighten me, though. Does the 1.6 zoom lens work in my favor if I need to increase the image size, keeping the projector in the same floor cabinet where I housed the 10HT? I have very little wiggle room in a small HT--maybe 14-17 feet back from the screen--and I don't want to buy another, smaller screen.

Gary

tvted

09-16-04, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by ricwhite

The HS51 is marketed to the US population and, as such, reflects with expectations of the US home theater population.
Good, I plan to use it through those harsh Canadian winters - and if it doesn't have too much trouble with road salt - I will be even happier.;)
Oh yes the PCB and components should be bilingual.
Now some say that the US HS51 "looks better" than the Canadian "HS50." This MAY be true to a slight degree. However, If you look at the face of a Canadian and one of a US citizen, you may also see the same thing. [/B]
Yes we are better looking.:cool:

Can't think of any real differences other than we are a bilingual country, I sure hope Sony is not trying to justify a Panasonic (no real relationship between U.S. and Canadian MRSP). If it doesn't perform exactly the same it certainly wouldn't appear on any list I might make. :rolleyes:

ted

Gordon Groff

09-16-04, 09:11 AM

Projector Central's Throw Length Calculator (http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator.cfm) has the HS51 listed already!

Looks to me like it kept the long-throw capability of the HS20 (good for me), but with the wider zoom, it added more short-throw to it's range(good for others) :) . Maybe that's why the confusion over "short throw" came up for this unit. Sony added this as a feature to address the short folk. ;)

Gordon

rlindo

09-16-04, 09:26 AM

The HS50 designation for us canucks seems odd.

rogo

09-17-04, 06:48 PM

Do you guys have clarity on what the lens shift of the HS51 actually will do?

Stew4msu

09-17-04, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Gordon Groff

Looks to me like it kept the long-throw capability of the HS20 (good for me),

Not quite. You can have the HS20 18 feet back to project an image of 118" (diagonal), but the farthest back that you can have the 51 is 17'3". I know it's close, but since I have to put my projector at 18 feet back and I don't really want an image larger than 118", the HS51 might be ruled out for me already.

Stew

Furious

09-18-04, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by rlindo
The HS50 designation for us canucks seems odd.

Tell me about it. Haven't been able to find out much more information. Our sample was picked up before I had a chance to check it out much more...I guess that's what we get for requesting a sample just to watch the game in HD...least we won! I'm hoping it's just a model number market difference as it looks like Japan's HS51 will carry a different name as well. Pricing is looking to be around the same as the current HS20 for us up here.

GHafer

09-19-04, 07:05 PM

Jeff Phillips at projectorsuperstore.com just wrote me to say that, according to Sony, the SH51 "will fill a 133" screen at 14 - 17 feet." Someone posted figures earlier that agree with that assessment.

If I'm wrong, please show me. I've had two different projector companies tell me this is correct.

Gary

Stew4msu

09-19-04, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by GHafer
Jeff Phillips at projectorsuperstore.com just wrote me to say that, according to Sony, the SH51 "will fill a 133" screen at 14 - 17 feet." Someone posted figures earlier that agree with that assessment.

If I'm wrong, please show me. I've had two different projector companies tell me this is correct.

Gary

I would say you're partially correct. projectorcentral's throw calculator iindicates that it can fill a 133" screen from anywhere between 12.5' - 19.5' (approximately:their calculator only goes up to 130"). According to the specs listed earlier in this thread:

Originally posted by PAP

Lens: 1.6 Times Manual Zoom / Focus Lens (F2.4-3.1 / f21.3-34.1mm)
Standard Lens Throwing Distance: 40" - 1.2m-1.8m; 60" - 1.8m-2.7m; 80" - 2.4m-3.7m; 100" - 2.9m-4.6m; 120" - 3.5m-5.5m; 150" 4.4m-6.9m; 180" - 5.3m-8.3m; 200" - 5.8m-9.2m

If will fill a 133" screen fron anywhere between 12.95' - 20.34'.

So, I would say that it will fill that size screen from 14-17 feet, but it's also more flexible than that.

Stew

SmacknCA

09-20-04, 01:35 PM

Has anyone found availability on these yet? I just found out that through work its already in the system to be purcashed and while I realize that we can't post prices here, this price would be considered very very good. I just dont want to pick it up yet until some other people in the know have had time to play and test them. Once bought via work I have to deal with Sony only for any issues. So I guess my more appropriate question is, how long until we see some feedback/reviews on the new unit?

goodsonr

09-20-04, 10:38 PM

Anybody know where the air intake/exhast is for the unit. If possible, I'd like to utilize the bookshelf behind me (possible with the longer zoom lens).

tks for any info

ron

tvted

09-20-04, 11:01 PM

Has anyone seen any hard info from Sony that indicates that the HS51 does indeed support a dynamic gamma function which would be coupled in some way to the auto iris.

The AE700 does this and I am interested as it would have an impact on PQ.

ted

rogo

09-21-04, 03:08 AM

I don't see how Sony could modulate an iris but not the gamma. The Sony folk I spoke with -- who were not technical -- agreed.

nilsp

09-21-04, 07:16 AM

No pricing or availability info for Norway either, but it is listed as HS50 in their (Sony) systems here, as in Canada...

tvted

09-21-04, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by rogo
I don't see how Sony could modulate an iris but not the gamma. The Sony folk I spoke with -- who were not technical -- agreed.

I'm sure you're right but I was hoping for some hard fast info on how its implemented.
Time to be patient.

Thanks though,
ted

Furious

09-21-04, 12:04 PM

Just received some further info on the HS50. Apparently the key differences will be with respect to ethernet/usb connectivity (field/service center calibration?).

BOBCAT

09-21-04, 12:40 PM

Hi,
Does anyone know if Sony improved remote? I hope that there will be direct access to the various inputs.
Al

tvted

09-21-04, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Furious
Just received some further info on the HS50. Apparently the key differences will be with respect to ethernet/usb connectivity (field/service center calibration?).

Can you expand on this?
Oh yeah - we in Canada don't use Broadband, we're still using dial-up via serial ports.

;)
ted

Furious

09-21-04, 03:51 PM

Not really much more info that I have. I believe the USB has something to do with changing the gamma.

Ericbres

09-21-04, 04:03 PM

Just out of curiosity ... does anyone have a photo/diagram of the back of this thing? Specifically the input panel?

I just took a look at the rest of the photos I took of it during CEDIA (including the HS51) ... POOP is the best description. :mad:
I am now realizing I may have been better off taking short (5-8 second) video clips of the projectors I was looking at rather than trying to take stills ... oh well, lesson learned.

Cilent1

09-21-04, 08:13 PM

Here is a link to a page which shows the input panel on the back of the HS51. (http://www.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0409/16/news062.html)

hdkhang

09-22-04, 12:51 AM

This is just a question out of curiosity seeing as how I have never witnessed a variable iris projector in action. If the contrast was measured at complete black and complete white, wouldn't the image fall apart for say material that does not completely fill the screen, for instance, 2.35:1 or 4:3?

I have access to a DLP projector (NEC LT260K, so not geared for HT) and get rather annoyed that the black bars on wide screen material is noticeable in a darkened room. Imagine a bright scene that on 2.35:1 material, surely the black bars top and bottom would be a greyish colour? Similarly for 4:3 material the side bars would also be grey if the main material is bright which is common for a lot of tv material.

I am guessing that the demonstrations of the Sony have carefully selected demo material so as to not draw attention to the iris deficiencies in challenging and demaning conditions. Please correct me if I am way off base.

What would be even better would be an iris that can adjust on a per pixel basis :p but you may as well just focus on creating a new technology, something HT oriented.

It'd be great when one day there was one definitive technology which had in excess of 15000:1 CR, long bulb life, no screen burn, no focus issues, no convergence issues, automatic adjustment depending on lighting conditions, properly calibrated colour, multiple sync frequencies for those of us running pal and ntsc material, multiple resolutions... the list goes on... one can only dream.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Ohlson

09-22-04, 05:53 AM

I do not think that many find the black bars disturbing on bright material. It might be more of an issue with dark material but with such material the iris closes down and the light output is lower and the bars blacker.

With proper masking it it is not a problem at all.

biomed_eng_2000

09-22-04, 11:39 AM

The technology you speak of is called "living your life" :)

Originally posted by hdkhang
It'd be great when one day there was one definitive technology which had in excess of 15000:1 CR, long bulb life, no screen burn, no focus issues, no convergence issues, automatic adjustment depending on lighting conditions, properly calibrated colour, multiple sync frequencies for those of us running pal and ntsc material, multiple resolutions... the list goes on... one can only dream.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Li On

09-22-04, 01:37 PM

It said the 720P LCD panel is Sony's own production. I hope it's VB free...

The projector looks quite big, right?

regards,

Li On

Ursa

09-22-04, 05:47 PM

Li On - If anyone can find VB in a projector, I would expect you can. So if you haven't pre-ordered yet, please do so... ;)

As for size, it's probably no bigger than the Epson TW500.

Later,
Bill

hdkhang

09-22-04, 07:58 PM

@biomed_eng_2000

LOL... too true...

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

lonniehansenjr

09-23-04, 02:40 AM

I got a question about home theater magazines. When I was talking to a dealer/cedia installer, he dismissed magazine reviews as paid advertisements to the manufacturers buy advertising in their magazines. I have been reading Sound & Vision, Perfect Vision, and Home Theater Mag. This installer was only interested in selling me Infocus DLP projector for $8k, when I have had my eye on the Sony HS20. I personally like the magazines.

Lonnie

Cilent1

09-23-04, 03:08 AM

:confused:

OzHDHT

09-23-04, 06:11 AM

Saw the HS-50 (yes, the display card next to it was marked HS-50 not 51, I double checked:confused: ) today setup quite poorly at the Sony Expo here in Sydney. Unfortunately, it was set up in the open floor area and not in a properly lighting controlled area. I didn't spend much time with it as my main game was seeing the Qualia which I missed out on anyway :(. It did seem brighter under the circumstances and easily could have beat my long gone 12HT's image. The unit was quite neat looking, interestingly it had manual keystone for horizontal and vertical adjustment of the image via wheels on the side.

Fidelity

09-23-04, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by lonniehansenjr
I got a question about home theater magazines. When I was talking to a dealer/cedia installer, he dismissed magazine reviews as paid advertisements to the manufacturers buy advertising in their magazines. I have been reading Sound & Vision, Perfect Vision, and Home Theater Mag. This installer was only interested in selling me Infocus DLP projector for $8k, when I have had my eye on the Sony HS20. I personally like the magazines.

Lonnie

i don't think anyone (besides those in the publishing business) truly knows the truth on this issue. i subscribe to about 7 industry mags and find them a good resource for information, but i do take their reviews with a grain of salt. not to say that they are totally influenced by advertising revenue, but when was the last time you saw a negative product review in sound and vision or home theater? i personally prefer the perfect vision because they seem to be pretty thorough and aren't afraid to not recommend a product (a scathing review of an RCA 34" comes to mind). stereophile's ultimate av is pretty good too. the problem with magazines, and this forum to a certain degree, is that people often want to buy what others tell them to without really trusting their own eyes and ears. i'm not saying that one shouldn't research to narrow down the choices (i spend WAY too much time reading mags and here!), but it ultimately is a personal choice and one that on one else can or should make. by the way, i can think of about 4500 reasons why the dealer would rather sell you the infocus over the sony (if he even carries the sony that is). in sum, use magazines and the internet for research, but make your own choice and don't look back!

tristartristan

09-24-04, 12:58 PM

There is something new here?

In europe, a reseller will test it at the next week! It's a final version.:)

HTCrazy

09-24-04, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Li On

The projector looks quite big, right?

regards,

Li On

No the HS51 is actually more compact and solid looking than the HS10/20. I really like the new form factor. My HS10 just looks fragile with all the white plastic on top, even though its run like a champ for 2 years and 3500+ hours.

stain

09-24-04, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by hdkhang
What would be even better would be an iris that can adjust on a per pixel basis :p

The technology does exist. Search the projector forums or the web for LED backlight or Sunnybrook Technologies. Once they are on the market, a bulb and an iris will be pretty much a history.

darinp2

09-24-04, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by HTCrazy
No the HS51 is actually more compact and solid looking than the HS10/20. I really like the new form factor. My HS10 just looks fragile with all the white plastic on top, even though its run like a champ for 2 years and 3500+ hours.
I also like the fact that the top is flat and looks like it could be flipped and placed on a shelf upside down.

--Darin

Anthony L

09-24-04, 11:02 PM

HT Crazy

Since you have an above average hour count on your HS-10, do you notice any LCD degradation? My company has about 25 Canon LCD Data projectors (1 year old w/2.5k to 3.5k hours) and they are really starting to loose their blues.

GreggPenn

09-24-04, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Fidelity
i don't think anyone (besides those in the publishing business) truly knows the truth on this issue. i subscribe to about 7 industry mags and find them a good resource for information, but i do take their reviews with a grain of salt. not to say that they are totally influenced by advertising revenue, but when was the last time you saw a negative product review in sound and vision or home theater? i personally prefer the perfect vision because they seem to be pretty thorough and aren't afraid to not recommend a product (a scathing review of an RCA 34" comes to mind). stereophile's ultimate av is pretty good too. the problem with magazines, and this forum to a certain degree, is that people often want to buy what others tell them to without really trusting their own eyes and ears. i'm not saying that one shouldn't research to narrow down the choices (i spend WAY too much time reading mags and here!), but it ultimately is a personal choice and one that on one else can or should make. by the way, i can think of about 4500 reasons why the dealer would rather sell you the infocus over the sony (if he even carries the sony that is). in sum, use magazines and the internet for research, but make your own choice and don't look back!

I would also add that I've found contradicting reviews regarding the same piece (from different reviewers). In rare cases, a reviewer has even changed part of their review.

One of three things has to explain this.
1) Advertising forces better, softer reviews
2) Some reviews/reviewers are better that others
3) Equipment and/or opinions can result in different view points. (This means the equipment and person doing the review should be reviewed)!

To me, I read EVERY review I can -- including those from individuals. Look for the consistencies between ALL reviews in order to find absolute truths. Otherwise, you're just looking at one person's opinion.

gp