http://www.audioholics.com/cedia/cedia2004/yamahadvds2500.php

Just what I was looking for (Faroudja, upscaling over HDMI, universal player). Should give Denon a run for its $. Doesn't state price, but I read elswhere it might be less than the S2300, which lists for $999.

I'm just wondering how long it will be before you can actually get one. It's only taken them 8 months to (apparently) start shipping the S1500.

That is a sweet looking player! Reminds me of a DV59-AVi with Dcdi.
.

So it won't have upconvert over DVI?

I sssume one would have to get a HDMI to dvi cable..Does it exist or will this player upconvert via DVI and HDMI?

This unit should give the Denon 3910 a run for its money.
Then again I wonder how well this Yamaha dvd player will fair in the secrets shootout...

Lol Q. Sept 2005 release for sure ;)
Then again I wonder how well this Yamaha dvd player will fair in the secrets shootout...
It's got Faroudja DCDI I would think they would be similar. The layer change 8mb buffer in the Denon might push a few people over the edge. I can't imagine they'd lower the price of the 2500 to below the 2300 but if so I can get a decent price locally on one(the 2300) so Im sure I could get the same deal on the 2500 if I go that route..if it ever comes out...

Originally posted by Troytn
So it won't have upconvert over DVI?

I sssume one would have to get a HDMI to dvi cable..Does it exist or will this player upconvert via DVI and HDMI?


Yes, you can get an HDMI to DVI cable, or an HDMI/DVI adapter. The player does not have a place to plug in a DVI cable, only an HDMI cable.

Nobody with DVI is left out with HDMI. You can go

PLAYER -HDMI-DVI--------------------DVI-DISPLAY

or

PLAYER-DVI-HDMI---------------------HDMI-DISPLAY

I knew it! :)

Marantz 8400 -> 9500
Denon 2900/5900 -> 3910
Pioneer 47Ai -> 59AVi
Onkyo and Integra too

And now Yamaha. Won't make decisions for some of us for our next player any easier... ;)

I'm probably down to the D 3910 and the Y S2500 (unless somehow the Samsung 941 surprises all of us). The Marantz/Onkyo/Integra are too much more $$ than the Denon or Yamaha. I plan on buying at Tweeter when they have their fall sale for preferred customers (usually mid-November). By then, most of these will be out so the decision should be easier as many report back on them. I only hope the Yamaha is out by then.

Bill- I'll actually agree with you. :) What could decide me is the layer change delay. Denons typically have none, while the 2300 did. And since the 3910 is out now too... :) I'm just waiting for more confirmation that macroblocking is gone.

I wonder what the new Yammy is based on. IIRC the 2300 was based on the same Panny RP82 video seciton (also Denon DVD1600 was the same video section); now that RP82 is out of production I would assume this will be a completely different model.

The MSRP for Yamaha is $ 749.00. This will give Denon & Pioneer a run for its money especially having i-link, HDMI & DCDi at that price provided Yamaha brings it out on time.

Is there a release date for this player?

The MSRP for Yamaha is $ 749.00.

Holy Moly! That's a lot of machine for MSRP $750! Street will be around $600 - 625 I'm thinking. Damn straight it will give the 59Avi & 3910 a run for the money!

Another member and I have been exchanging PM's about players and he went to CEDIA. They told him December release period. I'll contact my dealer on Tuesday. SInce I really ike what Yammy did with their LCD FP, the LPX-510, I have high hopes for this player.

Ron

anyone awared that this new Yamaha seems "look" like the Philips 963SA, but now added with HDMI, iLink, plus "released" the restriction of its Faroudja upscaling function ?

Front-view & remote :-
http://www.audioholics.com/news/uploads/DVDS25002.jpg
http://202.186.86.35/audio/articles/2003/3/27/audiofile/philips1.jpg
http://202.186.86.35/audio/articles/2003/3/27/audiofile/philips3.jpg

Rear-view :-
http://www.audioholics.com/news/uploads/DVDS2500REAR1.jpg
http://202.186.86.35/audio/articles/2003/3/27/audiofile/Philips2.jpg

I for one do not see much similarities between Philips & Yamaha. For starters the IEC inlet & component video outputs are at opposite ends.

Holy Moly! That's a lot of machine for MSRP $750! Street will be around $600 - 625 I'm thinking. Damn straight it will give the 59Avi & 3910 a run for the money

A year from now, when it finally does hit the street (Yamaha's track record), the 59avi and 3910 will be selling for <$500.

"Scheduled" release date is February.


That Philips/Yamaha comparison is just too funny.:D

http://www.audioholics.com/cedia/cedia2004/yamahaDVD-S2500DVD.php

It looks damn good on paper. Looking at the back panel, it's made by Success Bright Industries in China. I wonder who else they make players for. Could this player be based on a Pioneer DV-59AVI?

I spoke to my Yammy dealer yesterday. In lieu of this unit, the s2300's MSRP has been lowered to $699, I believe. He would sell me a mark 2 for $650 right now if I want it.

He says this unit probably isn't hitting the streets until 1st quarter of 05. Feb. 05 is probably a reasonable first guess...until Yamaha delays this again, like the s1500 was delayed several times at least. :p

Funny: My Yammy dealer also made some kind of sideways mention about shared technology between a lot of these companies. He also drew the Phillips name up in regards to that.

FWIW.

Looking at the back panel, it's made by Success Bright Industries in China

That is the PHILIPS factory. Same as the S1500.

Will this unit be HDCP compliant. I have a Yamaha LPX500 which is not HDCP, will it upconvert with this player. Thanks

I think they all have to be HDCP compliant these days. I wouldn't worry about it.

Will this unit be able to upconvert a regular purchased dvd to 720p? Thanks the help.

^^ That's the real trick, isn't it?

I'm tempted to say yes to you, with Yamaha winking at you the entire time while they put down some language in their manual that satisifies certain laws. I am certain you will NOT be able to upconvert via component video.

What troubles me about this unit is that they were very generous on all connections except...no DVI? I guess you can buy a DVi-HDMI cable and be just fine. As long as you do that, you should be able to upconvert anything you own without question.

People run into trouble upconverting via component only due to a stupid law that companies have had to dance around. You're home free if you stick with HDMI on this unit.


The one thing that really stands out to me and makes me really take pause to consider this unit is the following:
"Other new video enhancements include a new high-performance video DAC (216MHz/12-bit) " Holy smokes!

Up and down, the MSRP is amazing for a unit that offers all this. I just don't know if I can wait until January. C'mon Yamaha! If I thought this unit was coming out in the next couple of months, I'd wait easily and set a pre-order with my Yammy dealer right now. I may yet wait, but... geez...

One thing that surprises me is, ironically, given that this is Yamaha, I don't see much information about the audio components used, just the video DAC's and so forth.

Anyone know if there's any specific audio information about this unit out yet? I'd like to compare its audio DACS and so forth to the competition.

5 disc carousel versions of the Yamaha? One is needed.

Q.
How would I be restricted by purchasing this Yamaha 2500 DVD Player, if I could play purchased DVD'S and have them upgraded to 720P? What would be the big reason for not purchasing it because I have a NON HDCP Projector, that has DVI and could be adapted HDMI. Wish I understood this! Would I be restricted on material that I copied only? Wish I understood this better. Also, does sound come into play? Thanks Again.

I think I misread you, friend. Let me take it from the top.

If you have a non HDCP projector, and some others feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you run the chances of having incompatibility issues with most mainstream brands because, by law, they are going to be HDCP, especially DVI and HDMI. It may not even function at all.

Any big name, mainstream company is going to put out hardware that is HDCP compliant. They have to by law and that's what they will stick to.

People that own non HDCP hardware are going to be very limited in their choices of hardware that's even going to function properly. Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

The other side of it is: I can just about gurantee you that the s2500, like just about anything else that's going to be coming out from this day forward, will NOT allow ANY upconversion over component video, again due to that stupid law. So you're only option for upconverting with this player will be the HDCP HDMI output on this machine. Period. And you can thank that stupid law for these kinds of restrictions.

Not trying to panic you or anything, but you may as well be aware of this now before you commit big dollars to a machine and then find out the hard way.

And yes, a 5 disc carousel would be nice, but personally, I find single disc players to be more durable and better made. It's worth it to me to get off my lazy bum once in a while and change discs. ;) My $0.02. :p

Again, if I'm wrong on any of this, I look forward to being corrected, but this is how I understand the marketplace as of now.

As best I can see it, starting from this time period forward, component upconversion is a thing of the past. And that's a real shame.

Thanks again for the info. I didn't read this until I saw your reply on the other thread. At least I know not to try and buy the 2500, because it would not upconvert the component or even play through the DVI-HDMI. Thanks again, looks like a good DVD Player is out for me.

:(

I don't know what your budget is like, what your plans are, or how good that projector is, but... have you at all considered getting something that IS HDCP compliant so you can have the rest of the world opened to you?

I really haven't because it is a really good machine. I use it for Sat. and DVD. I think it has a great picture and have not had a bit of trouble with it. I paid about 4800 for it, so it would probably not bring much in the market due to the HDCP issue. I wasn't too smart as I thought the HDCP would be for copying only. I will probably try the MIS. or another Bravo as they seem to be my only choice. I do think the picture with the DVD is great, not so hot on the Audio. Thanks for the help you have given me, I really appreciate it!

Good luck!

I have just received an email from Yamaha themselves stating that the s2500 will begin shipping at the end of October.

Ok, this thing wants to be stupid. I have the PDF with the Yamaha s2500 stats but this forum says its too big.

I'll try and shrink it otherwise PM me your email adress and I'll just email you the PDF. Life's too short.

Email chill@yamaha.com and he'll email the PDF also.

For what it is worth, my Yamaha Rx-Z9 has the 216MHz/12-bit chip and it upconverts to 720 p and 1080 i over component.
I am going to get the 2500 and upconvert 16:9 movies over the HDMI directly to the projector.
I will run component cables to the Z9, and upconvert 2.35 movies thru component so I can stretch the image and use a panamorph.
Come on Yamaha, I can't wait.

FWIW, this same source at Yamaha, when questioned by me directly, says he "feels very confident that these units will ship at the end of October."

I have to give a nod to Denon with the inclusion of both HDMI and DVI ports. The whole DVI-HDMI chipset issue that causes loss of blacker than black is something to be concerned about with an HDMI only player, I can't remember if it's only for DVI -> HDMI or vice versa, or both. It is an issue that you need to be aware of though.

Of course, if you have HDMI on your display, then it's a moot point (;

I'm worried about this issue. I have only DVI input on my TV.

Wondered if anyone has tried the HDMI DVD Player to a Non HDCP Projector.

I spoke to one of the engineers that worked on this player and thought I should share the info with the forum.

The S2500 is based on the philips 900sa platform ie, the chassis, transport, software, chipsets are exactly the same. Philips did the design work and engineering and Yamaha bought the player wholesale and added their own specs.

The main difference between the Philips and Yammy is that Yamaha had specified the addition of DVD-Audio support plus the inclusion of I-link. In other words, think of the Philips 900sa as Yamaha S2500 lite.

The Mpeg chip on board is based on LSI, as Philips tend to go with them for their mpeg solutions. Almost all of Yamaha's DVD players are based on Philips players, with the exception of the S2300 which was sourced from the Panasonic RP-91.

I was also told that it is unlikely that the S2500 would be ready to ship this year. A working model would be ready for January's CES, but consumers arent likely to see them in their homes until March next year.

So far, Philips has no plans to release the 900sa in the US market as there have been no orders forthcoming. That's a shame cos the 900sa will likely to retail at half the price of the S2500. For those that dont need the i-link and DVD-A capability, it's probably a nice HDMI upscaling player to buy. Also, for those who like DSD, the 900sa has an option that "upscales" all PCM material into DSD stream (somewhat like the Sony XA777ES and XA9000ES).

Joe: I think the information I sent you before was HDMI specs are all signals coming from HDMI are HDPC compliant. If this is the case and I think it is....you can not send a signal via HDMI to a non HDPC projector. As discussed in other threads where you brought up the subject and my PM's to you...you are limited in your choices to those discussed before.

It's sad, but there is no getting around the issue. Non-HDPC compliant projectors and TV's can not show a HDPC signal via DVI and if the information below is correct, ALL HDMI signals.

Here is an article about the HDMI specs:

http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/1554691



Here is the issue specific to your question, which it's inclusion means that HDPC is part of the final spec:

"HDMI with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) technology solves the issue of protecting high-value content from unauthorized reproduction and distribution," the founding group said

Originally posted by Clepto
I have to give a nod to Denon with the inclusion of both HDMI and DVI ports. The whole DVI-HDMI chipset issue that causes loss of blacker than black is something to be concerned about with an HDMI only player, I can't remember if it's only for DVI -> HDMI or vice versa, or both. It is an issue that you need to be aware of though.

Of course, if you have HDMI on your display, then it's a moot point (;

There has been a significant amount of debate on this issue. And, I haven't seen a well-written conclusion that makes clear sense. In an effort to resolve the issue, I'd like document the conclusion I've formed. (Feel free to let me know if I've got it wrong)!

In another thread, a video cabler/designer confirmed that pin configurations are NOT the cause. In fact, he said there is a 1-to-1 mapping of the pins when using a DVI=>HDMI or HDMI=>DVI adapter (or cable). Additionally, I understand the HDMI specification to target standard 0-255 video levels. That means an HDMI input port should expect to receive these values. However, DVI was designed more as a computer interface (at least at the beginning). And, that means the narrower bit values (7-255) can be expected by some displays.

If you feed a 0-255 signal (standard video levels) to a port which only "see's" 7-255 (PC levels), you'll lose/crop below-black information. The result is that deep blacks won't be available. Conversely, if you send a DVI (PC) signal to an HDMI port, below-black information is displayed, but because it was already compressed (crushed) up into the values above it, some detail will be lost. This "crushing" means that fewer shades of black are retained. (Realize that a DVI PC signal will also look the same when fed into a DVI port).

My conclusion is that you need to investigate the video levels of your source device and your display device. If your source device does not send the full 0-255 range, you'll never get to see as much black detail. If your display device does not look for the full 0-255 range, you probably won't see the darkest blacks possible. Knowing these parameters should make it simple to predict how your display will react to a particular input device and/or cable conversion.

gp

Thanks for the info. again. I pretty much understand this, but I have talked to others who have said that it didn't make a difference and they could receive the picture and it looked great, but that was word of mouth. I have not seen it.

Is it just some players, or can we expect any and all that have HDMI out to have that "handshake" issue and black crush if one tries to use an HDMI-DVI setup.

I'm hoping Kris or someone who actually has some clout can get more info on this player. I have the PDF and can email it to anyone who's interested anytime, but there's some specifics that PDF just doesn't have.

What is the quality of Philips components going into the 2500? I know its hard to say as the 2500 isn't available yet but I really haven't heard much about Philips products.

I am really interested in both the 2500 and the Denon 2910. Would the 2500 with Philips components compare equally with the 2910? The 2500 looked like the one for me with the addition of i-link but with a release date of mid '05 it might not be worth the wait.

Thanks for any thoughts on this, Bill

Bill,

It's kinda hard for anyone to speculate on what is the quality of the philips 900sa components that the Yamaha S2500 is based on, since neither player is available commercially at present.

The 900sa is configured as a mid-range DVD player, and is envisaged as a replacement from their very successful 963sa player. I have a 963sa, and I would say that the parts used are pretty decent, while certainly not top of the line. Philips has abandoned producing high-end DVD players after the SACD1000 debacle. They initially only sold 39 of 1000 players brought into the US market at the original MSRP. The remaining stock had to be sold off at deep discounts.

Be that as it may, the 900sa is a very different player from the 963sa. It uses a different mpeg decoder (LSI vs ST Microelectronics), and offers DSD "upsampling" as opposed to PCM 192/24 upsampling in the 963sa.

If I was in your shoes, rather than wait for the S2500, I would buy one of the players available right now. If you are a Denon fan, and have no MB issues with your display, the 2910 and 3910 are excellent options. But my favourite player at present is the 59avi, which I find to be an excellent player, fuss free picture and audio, and no significant issues whatever.

That said, I also have the 3910, which I thought sounded better using 5.1 analog out. Picture wise, it is outstanding, but had some MB problems on my panny plasma. I now use it primarily for SACD and DVD-A. If Denon and Faroudja ever issued a fix for the deinterlacer, I would rank it over the 59avi.

Cheers

Hi Guys,

Does anyone (Q?) know if the S-2500 will output 480i over HDMI? I am specifically looking for a universal player with this capability to feed a Sony GW IV. The only players that I know of that currently do this are the Pioneer 59avi and the Arcam DV-79, at about double the cost of the Yammy. The Yamaha's price point sure is attractive.

It appears that there is a lower cost option for you headed down the pike. Look here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4493055#post4493055).

geradix,

Thanks for your response. The 59avi is also a strong contender for me as well. I think the 2500 is to far off and the 2910 or the 59avi will probably be my choice.

Is macro-blocking more noticeable on a plasma? I have a 42" Panasonic ED monitor so I was wondering if it would be an issue.

Thanks again, Bill

Originally posted by jbaracelona
Thanks for the info. again. I pretty much understand this, but I have talked to others who have said that it didn't make a difference and they could receive the picture and it looked great, but that was word of mouth. I have not seen it.

If that's the case Joe, I would post a separate topic on this subject. Since others have reported the ability to output a non-HDPC signal (which is what the player would have to do) via HDMI, this is counter to what the HDMI specs say...this would be an important revelation that I sure others would want to know about. This difference would open up the options for others with non-HDPC compliant projectors and TV's. That would be good news for many.

Good Luck
Ron

Thanks Ron

Anyone have an update on when this is going to be released?

Nope. My guy that I emailed at Yamaha a few times still swears by the end of this month. I very seriously doubt it given Yamaha's track record. I am fearing that January or February, like others have suggested is more correct. That will be very disappointing.

From the press release: "The DVD-S2500 includes an i.Link digital connection for DVD-Audio, Linear PCM, SA-CD and other high-quality digital audio transfer capabilities."

Not familiar with i-link. Does this pass DVD-A and SACD in raw form to a processor with an i-link input? I would love to get away from the 6 analog connectors from my DVD/SACD player to my prepro.

Just read the 59avi versus 3910 thread. Now understand i-link is another name for firewire and that it does indeed pass these digitally. Now, however, I'm worried about the post (back on the 59/3910 thread) stating that DVD-A menus are not passed via HDMI. Why is there always something screwed up! I want to run HDMI to a Panny AE700 and an i-link to my Anthem (which has an upgrade coming soon for DVD-A and SACD via firewire) and that's it. I was getting excited about this possibility, but now there's this HDMI DVD-A issue.

Anyone else with input on this?

Can't comment yet specifically in regards to this player, but, if I understood what I read in the other threads, it's either a glitch or some proprietary issue.

Originally posted by GreggPenn
There has been a significant amount of debate on this issue. And, I haven't seen a well-written conclusion that makes clear sense. In an effort to resolve the issue, I'd like document the conclusion I've formed. (Feel free to let me know if I've got it wrong)!

In another thread, a video cabler/designer confirmed that pin configurations are NOT the cause. In fact, he said there is a 1-to-1 mapping of the pins when using a DVI=>HDMI or HDMI=>DVI adapter (or cable). Additionally, I understand the HDMI specification to target standard 0-255 video levels. That means an HDMI input port should expect to receive these values. However, DVI was designed more as a computer interface (at least at the beginning). And, that means the narrower bit values (7-255) can be expected by some displays.

If you feed a 0-255 signal (standard video levels) to a port which only "see's" 7-255 (PC levels), you'll lose/crop below-black information. The result is that deep blacks won't be available. Conversely, if you send a DVI (PC) signal to an HDMI port, below-black information is displayed, but because it was already compressed (crushed) up into the values above it, some detail will be lost. This "crushing" means that fewer shades of black are retained. (Realize that a DVI PC signal will also look the same when fed into a DVI port).


My conclusion is that you need to investigate the video levels of your source device and your display device. If your source device does not send the full 0-255 range, you'll never get to see as much black detail. If your display device does not look for the full 0-255 range, you probably won't see the darkest blacks possible. Knowing these parameters should make it simple to predict how your display will react to a particular input device and/or cable conversion.

gp

This raises a question in my mind. I use the Aurora A303 expansion card to get a DVI path into my Pioneer 503cmx plasma, as opposed to Pioneer's 5002 expansion card that it came with it. The plasma is out for tune up but I have to wonder, as the 503 has computer monitor timings/specs, if feeding 480i into the original plasma adapter cards' DVI would be better in some ways than in the Aurora A303's dvi. The Aurora was our solution to get compatibility 720p, 1080i and HDCP etc.


Hmmm, time for more research.

Originally posted by Bill Mac
What is the quality of Philips components going into the 2500? I know its hard to say as the 2500 isn't available yet but I really haven't heard much about Philips products.

I am really interested in both the 2500 and the Denon 2910. Would the 2500 with Philips components compare equally with the 2910? The 2500 looked like the one for me with the addition of i-link but with a release date of mid '05 it might not be worth the wait.

Thanks for any thoughts on this, Bill

I read an article on some past Yamaha dvd players and it went into detail about how in the past Yamaha licensed entire designs from Philips, added or tweaked features, but also executed the build and quality MUCH better than Philips. It went on to say how that was a trend with Yamaha on dvd players. I don't recall the link as I tend to read this stuff for hours at a crack.

Perhaps because of Philips location overseas, or some other reason I tend to find alot of this new info on foreign sites. I frequently find these links/web articles on random searches, its reallly hard to keep track of and bookmark all of them properly, especially as they often don't stay up long.

So I would expect that to be the case with S2500.

Then that's very good news and has me prepared for this to be a really solid player.

Originally posted by ZZtop
This raises a question in my mind. I use the Aurora A303 expansion card to get a DVI path into my Pioneer 503cmx plasma, as opposed to Pioneer's 5002 expansion card that it came with it. The plasma is out for tune up but I have to wonder, as the 503 has computer monitor timings/specs, if feeding 480i into the original plasma adapter cards' DVI would be better in some ways than in the Aurora A303's dvi. The Aurora was our solution to get compatibility 720p, 1080i and HDCP etc.


Hmmm, time for more research. I'd be really surprised if either the 5002 or A303 accepted 480i over DVI. Also, the A303 has to convert DVI to analog, not sure about the 5002, but it most likely does because they both go in the same slot. From reading in the plasma forum, the best ticket to PQ with the 503 is feeding it native rate at 70 (72?)Hz with analog RGB via VGA from an external scaler or HTPC. There is secret firmware floating around the make the 503's refresh rate 60Hz.

larry

Originally posted by PooperScooper
I'd be really surprised if either the 5002 or A303 accepted 480i over DVI. Also, the A303 has to convert DVI to analog, not sure about the 5002, but it most likely does because they both go in the same slot. From reading in the plasma forum, the best ticket to PQ with the 503 is feeding it native rate at 70 (72?)Hz with analog RGB via VGA from an external scaler or HTPC. There is secret firmware floating around the make the 503's refresh rate 60Hz.

larry

Both the 5002 and A303 accept 480i. I have done both. My post was speculating on the what the quality would look like on one card , the 5002, vs the A303.

The 5002 might feed the panel closer to its native properties on 480i than the A303. That was part of my speculating.

The reason I bought the A303 was to get DVI into the 503 at other resolutions. I am familiar with the firmware, a few have installed it.

Ok, folks, here it is: My Yamaha dealer is going to call today, but he's already been told to start getting ready.

It looks like the Yamaha rep I spoke to was indeed correct. The unit is going to start making it's way out in early November, so all indications that we get so far, and I'll update this again when my dealer gives me more info, is that the Yamaha s2500 WILL hit the streets in November.

My dealers rep told himnot till Jan or Feb at the earliest.

Hopefully I'll know before this week's out. My Yammy dealer is a sharp guy on the ball. He says there's certain procedures that happen to prepare for a unit's release "within a 60 day time frame" and he's been seeing the beginnings of that already. I'll get something more concrete ASAP.

Maybe it's old news, but it Yamaha DVD-S2500 showed up on Yamaha's Web site. Haven't seen it there before...

That's news to me! That's also another promising sign.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/DVD/DVDS2500.htm

bump

Denon seems to be the only brand that lets you know the exact audio DACs used (Yamaha does not specify). The Secret's shootout should be very interesting in the next few months given all the new upscaling players. Too late for me - I'm very happy with the Denon 3910.

When is the next shootout going to be? December?

Wait till CEA now!!

No one has heard of a release date yet? I have a cousin who works for Yamaha who would get this one for me at cost. Just waiting to make the call.

gadget freaky!! man!! can i get one too..plsss!!

I just got an informative PDF from Q.

Faroudja deinterlacing: macroblocking? 1500 or the Philips players have any problems?

Doesn't say anything about BM for SACD/DVD-A. (The 1500 doesn't have any BM for DVD-A. I asked Yamaha.)

Anyone know who makes the MPEG decoder? DACs?

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
I just got an informative PDF from Q.

Faroudja deinterlacing: macroblocking? 1500 or the Philips players have any problems?



Having played some with the 1500, I can say that it has only a very minimal amount of macroblocking - hardly noticeable compared to the Denon's with the same chip. Both the 1910 and the 2910 have much more macroblocking.

But the 3910 seems to be better than all 3 of the 1910, 2910, and 5900. So I'm figuring the 1500/2500 will be on par with the 3910, so that's a good data pt.

If the 2500 has BM for SACD *and* DVD-A like the 1500 has for SACD, looks like it could be a real contender.

I do recollect that the Philips 963 got really good reviews for SACD quality. Maybe even in the ballpark of the venerable Sony 555ES.

Kris Deering reported definite MB problems with the S1500 (the 3910 was the best for minimizing MB - he has not yet reported on the 2910). So no, the S1500 was not "on par" with the 3910. Of course, MB is very display dependent.

Originally posted by BillP
Kris Deering reported definite MB problems with the S1500 (the 3910 was the best for minimizing MB - he has not yet reported on the 2910). So no, the S1500 was not "on par" with the 3910. Of course, MB is very display dependent.

Yeah, but the s1500 is a $400 player vs. the $1300 Denon 3910. If the high-rez audio wasn't in the s1500, it's probably more accurate to think of it as a $200 DVD player, video wise. Of course there are going to be signifigant differences.

I wouldn't write off the s2500, either, simply based on the s1500's performance. The s2300 MK II is a heck of a solid player, and if this simply builds off of that, I see a winner all the way.

But again, any player you get that has these Faroudja chips, you can just about count on having the same old batch of defects to some degree, regardless of price or brand. There's no way around it short of avoiding Faroudja outright, which more people are considering doing.

Whoever said they could get this s2500 at cost? That's a steal and I'd pull the trigger on that without hesitation.

Q, I agree with you, and don't generally compare $400 players with $1300 players. But, I was responding to the post above mine stating that the 1500 and/or 2500 might be on par with the 3910. The 1500 is clearly not, and we won't know about the 2500 until it's available.

Bill- Thanks. Maybe 1910=2910=1500, and I can expect/hope the 2500 to be more like the 3910 in the MB dept. :)

Any pre orders, or who is going to help us to get this baby at cost? lol

I saw your post on page 4, BillP. Thanks! Sorry about any misunderstanding! :)

I still haven't heard a damned thing else about release. That doesn't bode well. So much for the "It will ship at the end of October." I'm betting January now like a lot of other people have said. :(

Tidbit: According to my Yamaha dealer, the 2300 MK II has now officially been discontinued in lieu of the 2500. Unfortuneately, all other information regarding the s2500 has, thus far, seem to have completely dried up. I'm beginning to believe that January date is a lot more realistic.

My dealer and I have both determined that my source at Yamaha who emailed me a month ago about an October release...was talking about their new 2500 RECEIVER, not the DVD player. He was right. The new 2500 receiver did ship out at the end of last month. The s2500 DVD player is probably in for January thereabouts like everyone else has said.

January is fine!!lol..onkyo is $1500, out of stock, at vanns

Originally posted by zoro
January is fine!!lol..onkyo is $1500, out of stock, at vanns

I had to call them on the phone. They had a few left. ;)

This Yamaha player sounds great. Do they have any plans to release a less-expensive receiver with iLink? As far as I can tell it is only in the Z9...

Originally posted by BillP
Kris Deering reported definite MB problems with the S1500 (the 3910 was the best for minimizing MB - he has not yet reported on the 2910). So no, the S1500 was not "on par" with the 3910. Of course, MB is very display dependent.

On my display (Hitachi 51s700 RP CRT), the s1500 has less macroblocking than either the Denon 1910 or the 2910. I only notice it in a couple of images and only if I'm really looking for it. The 2910 at 480p has only minimal macroblocking, but it is quite noticeable at 1080i.

Any news on this player?

Is there a firm date yet?

Bump :)

It should be this month... :)

Wow... That was a fast answer! :)

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm rooting for Yamaha to really hit some gold here. That unit is stacked at a $750 MSRP. :)

I'm just hoping for this unit to be the "perfect" one ;) with no crushes, no macrobloking, etc., etc., etc.

I can hardly wait! :)

Originally posted by GCG
I'm just hoping for this unit to be the "perfect" one ;) with no crushes, no macrobloking, etc., etc., etc.

I can hardly wait! :)

Anyone have a firm release day for this month yet?

Yamaha will announce this Thursday for the first day of CES in Vegas all its new products coming for the first half of 2005. I'm sure there will be a few fellow AVS'ers that will be at the event and can report to us when this great dvd player will ship. I hope to get one to. I sure hope this unit will not have the problem with displaying below black when one uses a HDMI to DVI cable as other brands have had problems with. My tv only has a DVI input.

Troy

Since it uses the same Faroudja chip everyone else is using, I wouldn't expect it to be any better then what is out there already.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Since it uses the same Faroudja chip everyone else is using, I wouldn't expect it to be any better then what is out there already.

True, but at an MSRP of $750, it's going to be a nice fetch, especially for the deal makers, street prices, and so forth.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Since it uses the same Faroudja chip everyone else is using, I wouldn't expect it to be any better then what is out there already.

Well said!

I can bet $1 that at best it may match the performance of the Denon 2910

Originally posted by ssabripo
Well said!

I can bet $1 that at best it may match the performance of the Denon 2910

Price point and features, it seems geared to be a direct competitor to the Denon 2910.

this is interesting. sounds good. i have been holding out on a new player for the last 2 months. i guess i can wait another 2 months to see if this one does well, especially for the price. right now i'm using a denon 2200. it has a great picture, and i just can't see myself spending $1,000 for a new player.

It will be interesting once this player gets out and reviewed. I have read reviews of the differences of I-link vs 5.1 analog outputs for audio as a night and day difference. Like going from standard tv to high def tv. Weather thats true who knows until they actually experience I-link themselves and with this player at msrp of $749 many more people will be able to enjoy I-link. (as long as they have an I-link equipped preamp or receiver).
The real question will be is there a sound difference on this lowest priced I-link player on the market vs a $1,300 Denon 3910 or a $3,000 player using an I-link/firewire connection? My guess is no. Digital is digital. I would assume the sound differences would be in the preamp or receiver the I-link is hooked to?
What are your thoughts?

Kudos to Yamaha for coming out with a sub $1,000 I-link player. Wait its not here yet. Yamaha has been known for delays in product launches. I just hope the player is decent with low bugs in it. That is no firmware updates needed. One would think these manufacturers would have this dvd player thing figured out buy now.

Maybe CES will see other manufacturers come out with sub $1,000 I-link players.

Originally posted by Troytn
It will be interesting once this player gets out and reviewed. I have read reviews of the differences of I-link vs 5.1 analog outputs for audio as a night and day difference. Like going from standard tv to high def tv.

I find that extremely hard to believe, under any circumstance.



The real question will be is there a sound difference on this lowest priced I-link player on the market vs a $1,300 Denon 3910 or a $3,000 player using an I-link/firewire connection? My guess is no. Digital is digital. I would assume the sound differences would be in the preamp or receiver the I-link is hooked to?
What are your thoughts?

Some would argue that digital isn't always "just digital" due to quality of components, manufactering methods, engineering, etc. etc.



Kudos to Yamaha for coming out with a sub $1,000 I-link player. Wait its not here yet. Yamaha has been known for delays in product launches. I just hope the player is decent with low bugs in it. That is no firmware updates needed. One would think these manufacturers would have this dvd player thing figured out buy now.

They need to have it come out this month. Any more delays really hurts this unit's prospects.

The fact that I-Link signals still have to be converted to analog says that the difference might not be that great. If the players analog stage and decoding is better then the receivers (which tends to be the case with higher end models) then you would probably still want the player to do its thing.

Kudos to Yamaha for coming out with a sub $1,000 I-link player.

Pioneer has one too: the 59AVi. :) Not too tough to find one less than $1k street these days.

I just had a thought. If the Yamaha is going to use Faroudja, maybe the delay is that during beta testing, they encountered macroblocking and are now trying to minimize/eliminate it?

Sure you can find a street price on the 59AVi for under $1000. But most of the very lowest "street" prices that are from unauthorized sources, are still about $100 more than the MSRP of the new S-2500. So if you take into account that the Yamaha will also have lower street pricing, then you are also back to the S-2500 probably being around $200-$300 less than the 59AVi again.

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
Pioneer has one too: the 59AVi. :) Not too tough to find one less than $1k street these days.

I just had a thought. If the Yamaha is going to use Faroudja, maybe the delay is that during beta testing, they encountered macroblocking and are now trying to minimize/eliminate it?

I wouldn't count on it. They had this unit at CEDIA and said it wouldn't be around until this year. I don't expect them to have a workaround for the MB problem since no one else has been able to figure one out.

Originally posted by Johnla
Sure you can find a street price on the 59AVi for under $1000. But most of the very lowest "street" prices that are from unauthorized sources, are still about $100 more than the MSRP of the new S-2500. So if you take into account that the Yamaha will also have lower street pricing, then you are also back to the S-2500 probably being around $200-$300 less than the 59AVi again.


True, but a bird in the hand beats two in the bush. We know the 59avi is capable video and audiowise. Will the 2500 pony up? that's unknown.

Originally posted by Troytn
It will be interesting once this player gets out and reviewed. I have read reviews of the differences of I-link vs 5.1 analog outputs for audio as a night and day difference.

I too have heard that this is the case... and if I understand correctly (at least with respect to Red Book CD) it is related to i-link being a completely jitter free connection. I think it even eliminates the clock from the chain, and this is often the weak-point of a cd/dvd player, and the reason people like Arcam use seperate dedicated clocks for CD playback.

Perhaps this 'night and day' difference is most notable on Red Book playback.

i-link being a completely jitter free connection. ... Perhaps this 'night and day' difference is most notable on Red Book playback.

I don't think jitter isn't the reason. Home Cinema Choice tested the audio jitter of the 868, the European version of the 59AVi, and they got something like 158 ps for jitter. That is *very* good. For whatever reason, Pioneer players always do well with jitter. I have seen tests of their CD players and even CD burners with really good jitter numbers (this goes back 8 years or so). I have also seen good numbers for the 3910 and the Onkyo 1000.

Plus, i.Link *can* be a jitterless connection, but isn't necessarily. You only get a jitterless connection by mating a Sony player to a Sony receiver with HATs (or something) engaged, or with a Pioneer player and receiver with PLQS (or something) engaged. There is a specific handshaking that must happen between both units to sync their clocks, and that doesn't necessarily happen with units from different manufacturers.

Also ... in each case where someone has compared the i.Link connection to 5.1 analog, neither of the following has been specified (that I remember):

a) Were the audio output levels matched to within 0.1 dB to create a fair test? Well known that a small difference in level can cause a person to think that a signal is "better" sounding, when it might not be.

b) Since i.Link brings the signal to the receiver digitally, that means the signal might be undergoing some kind of BM *and* TA in the receiver. Again, for the test to be fair, both the 5.1 analog output and the receiver's processing must be setup for "all large, sub on" with all speakers set to the same distance.

Obviously, i.Link's big benefit is being able to use the BM/TA processing in the receiver, and that creates a *different* set of audible benefits. But from purely an audio signal quality standpoint, at best, you are simply comparing the DACs in the player to the DACs in the receiver. Some player's DACs are better, some receiver's DACs are better, but that has nothing to do with i.Link itself.

Any news from CES regarding this player? Anyone seen it?

No press releases as of yet from Yamaha from CES......I just looked at the CES site

No press releases as of yet from Yamaha from CES......I just looked at the CES site

??

Their release is out. It is dated Jan 3rd.
January release. $749 MSRP.

I went to the CES website and punched in YAHAMA into their search bar and it came up with no press or product announcement releases for the 2500?

Pick a better source for information.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/

Thanks Rob. I looked at the CES; couldn't find anything in Yahoo either. That's good news.

Bump for RONM.

You'll find all the links you need about this unit in this thread. :)

Well, i've got one on order from a friend who works at Yamaha. He told me i won't be able to get it until February. :rolleyes: Then again, maybe fulfilling employee orders are 2nd priority. Hope not! :D

I checked with 2 Yamaha retailers and they can not give me any date. Nothing showing in their system yet. Not a good sign. If anyone else hears or finds them available let us know.

CES info.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CEStransports/yamhaDVDS2500universal.php

Banditz dude, where is ur resourcs? man give us some heads up!pls

Audioholics IS the source, my man. :) www.audioholics.com/ces

Hit that link and go to it! Beyond that, I don't know anymore than the rest of you do.

Too bad we have to wait until the summer to find out how this player does against the Sherwood SD-871 just announced at CES. I'm looking for a high-quality universal player with emphasis on the audio only side. These two are reasonably priced alternatives to the Denon 3910.

Did anybody see this player at CES? Any impression/comment?

I guess nobody saw it :D

Anyway... I just read a great thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486428) titled Explanation of Color Space: HDMI and DVI.

I'm just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this player transcodes the Rec 601 YCbCr values to Rec 709 YCbCr values when upconverting to 720p/1080i and, of course, going HDMI to HDMI.

It would be good to know and I'm just hoping it does do it :rolleyes:

Gilbert

Why don't you call or email Yamaha and find out?

I already had, but so far no answer.

I was hoping that someone who might have seen it at CES could have an answer for this.

Went to Tweeter today and they are taking orders for this model.
It showed on their system as a special order only. (don't know what this means)
The store I went to has three units coming on Feb 28 and they are all sold.
Price is $699.

Fianlly it hits the market soon. I can't wait to see early owners' review.. :)

I know this player isn't out yet, so there is no way to tell for this specific model, but how do Yamaha players do with layer changes in general? Any experience with Yamaha players would be appreciated.

The 2300 wasn't so great. I don't know about the 1500.

Secret's has info on layer changes for all the players they've looked at:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

bump...had to bring back this post from the dead... I'm anxious to read some reviews when it hits the market!

anyone have the latest info?

Well, I ordered an S2500 at the local Tweeter. Special order only. Price was $699.99. They said it would come in ~3 weeks or sooner.

newtr1,

Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted. What current dvd player do you have? I bought a S1500 from Tweeter recently and have 4 months from the date of purchase to trade it for a higher priced player (100% credit of the purchase price). I'm using it at as an audio-only player and so far I'm satisfied with it. The S2500 is on my short list.

KramerTC,

I still have the old, old, original Panasonic DVD player I bought eons ago (I don't part with money willingly). It has been serviceable and still works. In the near future, I will be forced to go to one system only (for both audio and video) and I wanted a player that put an emphasis on audio, while still putting out a good picture. Good classical music is my first love, followed by trashy action flicks.

The posts about Yamahas seem to relay good things about audio capabilities. It also has the HDMI output that will match up with the new TV I will buy soon.

It is expensive compared to the "throw-away" cheapies, but I wanted something that would last, and I am betting my dollars on the Yamaha.

I will post results when I get some use under my belt.

I agree!! Dude! $700 flat is a bit more for me to shed!

I got a CX1 Yamaha changer and still use via component it is swell, excelent product! but does not do SACD or pal/ntsc stuff!

Originally posted by zoro

I got a CX1 Yamaha changer and still use via component it is swell, excelent product! but does not do SACD or pal/ntsc stuff!

Helluva player. I can't believe I passed that one up a year ago for 399;)

Bump.
Does anyone know if the manual is available online? I've looked here (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/customer/manuals/man_cd_dvd_hd_md.htm) but it's not listed. If anyone knows of another link please share.

KramerTC,

I can swear I saw it at the link you directed, but then it disappeared. I hope this doesn't mean they are back to the drawing boards. I am sure I am not dreaming, and I haven't been high in a long time.

Life is too short :)

Originally posted by newtr1
I can swear I saw it at the link you directed, but then it disappeared.

Nope, the manual has never been posted yet. I have been checking every day since it was announced as a new product to see if they posted it yet, and so far they have not.

consult Q!! he had some info sheets on this pne!

Info sheets, are not manuals.

If you say so. I had better check what I've been smoking.

The info sheets that I have may or may not be 100 percent current. Your best bet is to either fire off an email or a phone call (toll free) to Yamaha and get the answers directly.

Is there anyone else out there who has actually put their money down on an S2500? If so, what did your retailer say about a delivery date?

Read a few posts above. Tweeter is taking pre-orders for $699. I would pre-order as well but I'd like to get a hold of the user's manual first.

If Tweeter is asking $699 for it now as a pre-order, then that also means others will likely sell it for even less. I would never lock myself into a pre-order price from Tweeter... I myself would wait until it's out and available, and then see what the real "street" price is going to be on it. My guess is, that you will see it being sold for under $699, and possibly as low as around $650 at many authorized Yamaha dealers. And for under $600 at many of the un-authorized ones.

johnla, I agree!! $600 OR LESS SHOULD BE FAIR STREET PRICE FOR THIS!

Unauthorized is OK until you have a problem, then you get what you pay for. Tweeter happens to be a local authorized dealer near me. That, in my book, is worth the extra ~$50. May not be in someone else's.

I, for one, decry the dearth of service in business today. The "quick-buck" internet sales machine has only fueled this. Not that there are not some good internet dealers, it is just that there is a lot of anonymity, and that can lead to questionable business relationships.

Oh, and by the way Johnla, if I need someone to take hacks at my buying practices, I will let someone who's opinion counts, my wife.

Can't we all just get along?

Originally posted by newtr1
Oh, and by the way Johnla, if I need someone to take hacks at my buying practices, I will let someone who's opinion counts, my wife.

You can do whatever you want with your money, I never said otherwise. But I'm gonna wait and see what the real prices are, before spending MY money! Because Tweeter has proved in the past many times, never be the cheapest authorized dealer for buying anything! And with the "new ways" they are running many of their stores now, their service is not even 1/2 as good as it used to be. So I don't consider their so-called "great support" to be worth paying any premium for anymore. Just as long as I buy one from a authorized source in order to have a valid warranty, is the only thing that really matters.

Johnla, if you have a bone to pick w/Tweeter that's fine. But start your own thread on this topic and don't come pissing on this one out of the blue. We're talking about the Yamaha DVD-S2500 here, not throwing rocks at each other's purchasing habits.

Originally posted by KramerTC
We're talking about the Yamaha DVD-S2500 here, not throwing rocks at each other's purchasing habits.

And that IS what I was talking about. And I certainly did not just come out of the blue into this thread either! Just because I said I would not pre-order one at a set price until the actual pricing market is known for it, does NOT mean I was throwing rocks at someone else for doing so. Even IF that is the way you want to look at it. He stated what he did, and then I stated what I would or would not do! Besides he was one that brought up the issue of the pre-order pricing, so he should expect others will respond to that and that they may not necessarily agree with him on that. And if he don't realize that, then he never should have mentioned any sort of price at all! Not to mention, there is another reason I will not jump on one sight unseen, and that is because NO ONE has any idea of how good it may or may not be until they are out and being used.

Johnla,

I'll admit you've got that right. Someone needs to report on this unit in actual use. Maybe I can be of service on that.

I also have to admit that my preorder has as much to do with being excited about this product as it does with a perceived quality with Yamaha along with good sound.

Let's see what happens when I get that little bugger in my system.

Other than the HDMI upconverting capability does anyone know how this unit stacks up agaainst the 2300 MK II? I am talking DACs, weight etc.

JTmav

Originally posted by JTMav
Other than the HDMI upconverting capability does anyone know how this unit stacks up agaainst the 2300 MK II? I am talking DACs, weight etc.

JTmav

The first page of this thread has some information regarding the DACs. From the info sheet (thanks to Q.) it says 12.3 lbs... but surely you're not going to judge its quality based on heft, are you? :)

Like everybody else I'm excited about this player. I have the S1500 (for music only) and to my ears it's a step up from the Pioneer 578. I had the Denon 2900 for one night but it couldn't read half of my redbook CD's so back it went. I haven't had one problem with the 1500 and am hopeful that the 2500 will give the Denon 3910 good competition for half the price.

Certainly not by weight alone. I have the 2300 MK II and have been satisfied for the last year. Last week however I got my first H03 error while trying to watch a DVD. Cleared up quickly but has me concerned.
This looks like a great player.
JTMav

Originally posted by newtr1
I'll admit you've got that right. Someone needs to report on this unit in actual use. Maybe I can be of service on that.

I also have to admit that my preorder has as much to do with being excited about this product as it does with a perceived quality with Yamaha along with good sound.

Trust me, I am the kind of person that loves to have something new and with the newer features. But with something like this, you are talking about a lot of things that are yet unknown about it. And no one yet knows if it will be as good or better than the other players that are out right now. I'm looking at it more due to the fact it will have i-link for less than any player out, than the up-conversion feature. But it's still pricey enough that I don't want to jump blindly into owning one, just to find out it's really not at all as good as it appears to be by looking at it's "specs". After all just about everything looks good on paper. And there has been a lot of higher priced DVD players that never fully lived up to their "paper" specs, just as there has been a few budget ones that have exceeded theirs. By it's specs alone, it should equal or exceed the others that have i-link in its class. In short, all I want to know is that it's at least equal to some of the other i-link equipped players. And if so, I'm in. And if it happens to actually exceed the others such as the Pioneers, then that's just a added bonus for me.

I thought I had my choices narrowed down before this player was announced. I certainly hope it arrives as promised. My Sammy HLP needs a new partner and it will be an upconverting player. Any reports positive or negative will be much appreciated.

going with yamaha track record, i found both their CX1 and 2300 excellent products!

Audio wise it should be fine and not make that much of a difference if you use the firewire output, since your receiver will be doing most of the work.

Video wise is what will be the biggest deal breaker for most probably. The 2300 I have is great in both respects. I have been using it and am very happy. My only concern is that it is based on Phillip's products. An so far from what I have seen from Phillip's and their DVD players is terrible. The 2300 was based on Panasonics players and they are great for the most part.

i agree , lower than flag ship are philips based and are not trouble free!! I hope this one is not

Originally posted by Carbo
Audio wise it should be fine and not make that much of a difference if you use the firewire output, since your receiver will be doing most of the work

Not so! Because using the i-link out, instead of the analog outs, can make a big difference when it comes to things like setup and bass management for playback of SACD and DVD-A.

Originally posted by Johnla
You can do whatever you want with your money, I never said otherwise. But I'm gonna wait and see what the real prices are, before spending MY money! Because Tweeter has proved in the past many times, never be the cheapest authorized dealer for buying anything! And with the "new ways" they are running many of their stores now, their service is not even 1/2 as good as it used to be. So I don't consider their so-called "great support" to be worth paying any premium for anymore. Just as long as I buy one from a authorized source in order to have a valid warranty, is the only thing that really matters.

FWIW, I inquired at my local Tweeter this past weekend about the S2500. They said they could special order it ($699) , that I could get a 0% financing deal, BUT that there would be no returns allowed and no 'price watch' guarantee (find a lower price within 30 days etc). I understand the logic of the latter, but the fact that they won't take a return killed the deal for me. They said they don't plan on actually displaying or selling this model
in their store at all (!) ..so they won't take a return. The salesman then proceeded to try to steer me towards a similarly-priced Denon which they *did* have on display...

I think I'll wait for an authorized dealer who *does* plan to actually stock the S2500..and support it with their return policy...and hopefully has a lower retail price.

I think good guys and magnolia, might have it!

But neither of those is an authorized internet Yamaha dealer.


http://www.yamaha.com/yec/customer/dealer.aspx

krabapple,

Was the no return policy tied to the 0% interest offer, or just no returns, period?

Why would Tweeter do that? I wonder if it's because they have a higher margin on the Denon 3910 and 2910. On specs alone the 2500 is closer to the 3910 than the 2910 at almost half the price.

No returns, period, regardless of the finance offer.

The guy had no idea about he specs of the S2500, I'm sure; he didn't know anything about it until he looked it up on his computer. After that he only knew that it was 1) MSRP $700, 2) a few other people had already special ordered one, and 3) that his store wouldn't be stocking it.

I'd be interested to hear if other Tweeter buyers asked about the return policy at their stores. (The one I went to is in northern Bethesda/Rockville, MD, the only one for miles around)

I really don't understand why people are chomping at the bit to get this player *now*. a) It has Faroudja processing, so it *will* have some sort of macrblocking, and, b) once it's been out a month or two, you'll easily be able to find it for 20% off of MSRP even from authorized dealers.

BTW, the Yamaha will *not* have the build quality that the 3910 does.

This stinks as Tweeter is the only Yamaha authorized dealer for me according to their website.

Kevin,

You make an interesting point. I have always been one to wait and see how something turned out before I plunked any money down.

Well, I getting too old, and I'm tired of waiting. I decided I would be "daring" and be one of the first to get it. Please allow that some people like to get excited, and after all, we're talking about $70-$140 potential savings if we wait. I'll survive.

Someone has to buy it, if we all wait, Yamaha might go bankrupt.

A lot of posts from disgruntled Denon buyers have made me think twice about Denon quality, which I always thought was a given.

Frankly, the only reason I'm interested in the Yammie is for ilink. I'm not sure there will be a difference in video quality between it and my current player, the Pio DV-45a (whose video performance got a rather bad writeup in Secrets, though it looks fine to me *shrug*)...and since my Mitsu TV is calibrated to the Pio, it could be that if I could see a difference, the Yamaha would look *worse*. I was willing to be an early adopter, though...but my Tweeter experience has dissuaded me for the moment. I'm waiting for the box to turn up on authorized Internet sites.

Now that Denon has finally finished dicking around with its own ilink, and has permission to pass both kinds of hi-rez ...on its *next* generation of players...I might consider them, if the price is right. But more likely I'll just buy the Yammy at the best authorized price I can find.

Finally, ilink could turn out to be a blip -- since SACD and DVD-A seem to
gasping for air. If pioneer decided NOT to introduce a price-competitive ilink model to the Yammy, I wouldn't be surprised, given that plain old toslink works fine for the only *popular* surround formats.

Is this player really coming out soon? I searched the Yamaha Japan site and didn't see anything. No listing of the 2500 in the DVD player section. Not even announced. They have the search function for the whole site. Nothing about the 2500 came up. Nothing from Japanese Internet dealers either. ???

Originally posted by KramerTC
This stinks as Tweeter is the only Yamaha authorized dealer for me according to their website.

Call up Yamaha and ask them if there are any other dealers near you. Because what they show on their website is also not 100% accurate as far as being totally up to date. So it's possible there may be some others that they have not listed yet somewhere by you.

Originally posted by krabapple
\BUT that there would be no returns allowed I understand the logic of the latter, but the fact that they won't take a return killed the deal for me. .

Yeah, that is one of the "new" things that are doing in their stores, that has turned me off of dealing with Tweeter now anymore.

Originally posted by newtr1
Someone has to buy it, if we all wait, Yamaha might go bankrupt.

Only if people also stop buying their motorcycles and musical instruments.....;)

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
BTW, the Yamaha will *not* have the build quality that the 3910 does.

It won't win any beauty contests either. Fortunately it's a lot cheaper.
Oh, it's made in China too. They call that flagship!?

Originally posted by Johnla
Call up Yamaha and ask them if there are any other dealers near you. Because what they show on their website is also not 100% accurate as far as being totally up to date. So it's possible there may be some others that they have not listed yet somewhere by you.

I have. There a couple of other places but they only carry the lower-end products from Yamaha.

Well, doing a search on Froogle only turned up one place on the net and at full $750 price. At this early stage of the release the $699 price at Tweeters doesn't seem too bad, but that non-return policy is nasty.

avfile dude! cheers!! do you think denons are made in japan?

Hi!

No, that's why I said "made in China too"

I have had issues with Denon QC, so I'm not touting them either.

Never a glitch with my Sony ES made in Japan that I've had for years. Although I'm considering "upgrading" it to the Marantz DV9500 to get the new features.

LOL, thats my soar point too, never had a prob with made in Japan stuff!!
I think 2300, cx1 were made in japan!
by the way, i found multi language pdf owner manual, trying to find, how to attach!

Originally posted by Johnla
Info sheets, are not manuals.

Lol, you are too demanding!! ha ha! what language would u like ur owner manual?:)

http://www.yamaha-service.de/service-download/owners_manual/audio/Dvd_serie/DVDS2500/ (http://)

My attachment did not work! Help yourself in any language you are fluent in!

Oh what a tease.

Your link no workie!

i'll try again, tell me how to attach

darn does not work on my favourite bookmark either.

if u have email, i can send u

How odd.

I copied the text from the link and it's a valid link, but I get an empty web page. Then if you back up a level or two (deleting the directories after the slashes) you get to this:
http://www.yamaha-service.de/service-download/
whichi is a ftp-like directory of the contents, from there you can click on "owners_manual"... but! A page in Portuguese comes up (?)... now, Spanish is my native language I can figure out that it is some kind of a political essay. It's as if the DNS routing from my work connections is screwed up.

Incidentally, pretty good read. The political stuff, that is.
I pm'd you with my email address.

hang in there dude!I am sending you

Originally posted by zoro
hang in there dude!I am sending you

trying again zipped it!
did not work. well kramer got it now

Originally posted by KramerTC
Well, doing a search on Froogle only turned up one place on the net and at full $750 price.

That is probably to be expected. After all it has not even been released yet, so how can anybody really even offer to sell it. Because about all they really can do right now, is just offer to order it.

My local dealer still has no concrete info as to the actual release date, so that he start to order them. And I guess two of the guys that work there got the hots pretty bad for one. So I would think if there was a way, he should have been able to find a release date for them, seeing as how they want a few for personal use also. They only thing I "heard", was it looked like it possibly might not be until somewhere around the end of Feb.

My local Tweeter said that my S2500 should be in their warehouse on 2/11 and in their store 2/14 or 2/15. Let us see.

Well, I emailed PDF manual to kramer who tells me, it was bigger than allocated attachment here!

If some one can host it! I can send via email to that person, so this way, evey one can get benifited.

and in return, if i can get a halluva deal on this player that will be awesome! and ofcourse some favourable feed backs!

I dunno, if it's that close to being released or not. But I kind of think that the "guess" of more toward the end of Feb, might be when it happens. But I also think that some vendors sometimes get "special" treatment, and sometimes get new things before some of the others do. Like Denon did with Crutchfield and the 5805. So I guess anything is possible, and maybe Tweeter is higher up on the list and could be getting some the first ones out.

The manual has a bass management information under the SACD section. Very nice but I see no bass management information at all for DVD-A. Actually, there isn't a DVD-Audio section in it.

I think the 1500 is the same way: Pretty extensive BM for SACD, but none for DVD-A. Which is actually the opposite of most other players.

I've been reading the manual (thanks zoro! :) ) to see if this player transcodes the Rec 601 YCbCr values to Rec 709 YCbCr values when upconverting to 720p/1080i and, of course, going HDMI to HDMI, but there is not a word about that.

I had emailed Yamaha about this, but the answer I finally received didn't really answer my question. I emailed them back on Jan. 26 clarifying what I wanted to know and 9 days later I'm still waiting for an answer. :rolleyes:

Does anybody have any info on this matter?

I'd lke to see the manual too , if anyone can send me a .pdf or zipped file please do,
to ssully@panix.com

GCG, do they comment on relese date?

Originally posted by zoro
GCG, do they comment on relese date?

They told me end of February or the beginning of March. I'm just hoping is February... ;)

Someone host the manual, I would like to read it also.

Originally posted by krabapple
I'd lke to see the manual too , if anyone can send me a .pdf or zipped file please do,

Why can't someone just post a valid link to the place that they D/L it from.......;) ;)

sorry it has changed

Still no answer from Yamaha on my question regarding whether this player transcodes Rec 601 YCbCr values to Rec 709 YCbCr values when going HDMI to HDMI and upconverting to 720p/1080i.

This is the solution, on the players' end, to avoid color errors (the most noticeable being the "green depression") in upconverted HDMI connections. It is a known issue and I don't understand why manufacturers don't take advantage of it by addressing the problem and then advertising their upconverting HDMI players as "green depression free" to outsale the competition :confused:

I just hope Yamaha did a good design...

Well it seems the first known retailer in the US has two of the s2500 dvd players in stock for $625 each. They are on Ebay...
Maybe we shall see more stores get them in now and others begin to review them here on AVS.

Troy

Yeah, and lot of dealers are just starting to show it on their web sites now also.

What r those dealers? John John? Pls

Just do a google search, and it will pop up at least 6 of them. Some are authorized (with NO online sales). And some not, and those will sell to anyone.. And none of them have any real great prices yet....

Well, no great prices, no sale dude!

And there won't be any sales to me yet, until I first see some reports back on how good it is or is not. Because for me at least, $600+ is too much to spend blindly on a new and unproven product.

for what its worth - according to the European distributor, ETA is somewhere in March, pricing has yet to be confirmed... can't wait!

Interesting.... looks like the ebay S2500 ad is gone. Anyone else spot a reseller for this unit?

Both s2500 players on Ebay SOLD!

Maybe there will be more in the near future....

Kris Deering!!Would you be testing one soon..pls?

He tests it if the manufacturer sends him one. So it's up to Yamaha!

But can we ask Kris, if he is getting one?

I think Kris also tests players that a user lets him borrow.

So does anyone have this thing in their possession yet? I'm anxious to hear how it performs!

newtr1 should be very close to having his if the dates Tweeter gave him were accurate. Hopefully he'll chime in on this thread.

I was sooo close. Tweeter said it would deliver to my local store on 2/15. Not to be. At the last minute, they changed the delivery date to the end of February. Apparently Yamaha is having a problem with the sourcing of a particular part. Stay tuned. I'm bummed out, but I still don't see an alternative on the market at this price point.

I put my order in weeks ago for this player. I just talked to my local guy today and he said his Yamaha rep told him not til the end of March. Damn! I was hoping to be into a new player here in February. Damn you Yamaha! Damn you all to HELL!

I really doubt that it's because Yamaha is having any problems with "sourcing" any particular parts. Rather I'd bet that is nothing more than just a poor excuse/BS on the dealers/salespersons part for not really knowing when they will have them to begin with. And that they probably think that by saying it that way, that it makes them "look" better than just saying that they don't really know. At least my local dealer has been honest enough to tell me, and as he has been for the last month and 1/2. That he still has NO real concrete information on any release date for them yet.

If this player is truly based on a Philips platform then we may be tied to the release of the Philips DVP9000SA (or something like it).. On this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476427&highlight=philips) it was reported that the Philips unit isn't expected until April.

It may not have been concrete, but a call by me to Yamaha itself in January yielded the 'information' that the player would be available in mid-February. That's probably the sort of information the dealers are relaying too. They aren't necessarily bullshitting..just passing the stuff along ;>

I sent a couple of emails to Yamaha (the last one on Jan 26) asking about whether this player transcoded Rec 601 YCbCr values to Rec 709 YCbCr values when going HDMI to HDMI and upconverting to 720p/1080i (the proper handling of signals to avoid the "green depression").

They never answer my question on this issue. The only info I got from them was that "it was scheduled to ship in mid February or early March".

They probably don't understand what you're asking. ;)

Well, while we wait for this player to hit the streets...

How has Yamaha's tech support for past DVD players been? While a lot of other players may have their own problems I see firmwares being released for them and at least the manufacturers are being responsive. I don't expect this player to be bug-free but I do expect support from Yamaha.

What if the DVD-S2500 doesn't pass the appropiate color space, or it can't read some media, doesn't pass BTB, etc?

How did Yamaha do with previous models like the 2300?

What is your opinion on this player being Yamaha's first firewire equipped player will it include the actual firewire cable? Did Denon include the firewire cable in their players with this feature? I bet it comes with an HDMI cable.

On another note I read in the receivers section that Yamaha will be replacing all its current lineup with new models announced this summer for fall release. Maybe the s2500 dvd player will be short lived and replaced by a s3600 since that is the receiver models coming out.

Troy

It's better to look at the 1500 than the 2300 for past players and any expectations of the 2500.

The 2300 is a Panasonic based player. Both the 1500 and 2500 are Philips based players.


If there's a rumored 3600 for this summer, that means it *really* won't be out 'til next spring, right? :D

Hopefully it is not a Phillips based player. This is not confirmed for the 2500, but if it is it probably wont be any good from what I have seen from Phillips so far.

Take a look through this thread or maybe others. Somewhere someone did state that they knew it was Philips based. Maybe that's why the delivery date keeps slipping. ;)

My dealer called me today to say that he expects the 2500 to arrive any day now. He had ordered one for me-I didn't have the heart to say I already bought a Pioneer 59avi and had it modded for region free play. I know there will be no problem whether I take it or not...

I will post when it hits his store. I may see if he'll let me take a demo unit home to compare to the Pioneer....assuming they'll have one on the floor.

Ron

I guess Philips doesn't support either i.link or DVD-Audio. Would it be that easy to modify Philips DVD-V/SACD player to support DVD-A, let alone i.link? There must be much easier base solution to make s2500 from.

Even if Philips is the source for this player I would expect firmware updates from Yamaha, not Philips. I can't find information on firmware updates for the S1500 or 2300.

The 1500 certainly has DVD-A, and that is a Philips based player.

The 2300 is a Panasonic based player, but Panasonic doesn't support SACD. ;)

Well, I think it may be the end. Tweeter just called and said Yamaha moved the delivery date back to sometime in April. I guess I will just get my money back.

The problem is, there is nothing out there that has both HDMI and iLink anywhere near this price point.

Any suggestions?

newtr1,
I was in the same boat as you until Tuesday. I finally gave up waiting for what might be and decided to pony up the extra $250 for a DV-59avi. So far I am very impressed after minimal setup and configuration.

BWOJO,

Let me know how it works out, especially the iLink. I may go this route, or just wait for the high-def units later this year. I may even buy a Pioneer DV-578A-S just to play around with. It shoud give a better picture than my 6 year old Panasonic.

My electronics supplier checked today and Yamaha is telling him they are shooting for the end of March, but to call her back in a couple of weeks to confirm this.

I just may have to get a Denon or Pioneer at this rate.

newtr1,
Unfortunately I can't give you any reports on functionality of iLink. My current receiver is not iLink capable. I decided on the Pioneer because:

1.It is a good match for my TV (DLP)
2. DVD-Audio and SACD capable- I plan on hooking up the multi-channel inputs for this feature
3. No macroblocking issues reported (and I have not see any when viewing several movies so far)

Do you guys know how much Tweeter sells the Pioneer for? I'm tired of waiting for this Yamaha.

KramerTC,
The closest Tweeter to me is across the state (and for some reason they do not list it on their website even though the Pioneer website lists them as an authorized internet dealer. Maybe they cannot advertise the price online?). The only online price I could find (authorized dealer) is Electronic Warehouse for $1300. I bought mine for much less than that from an authorized dealer here in WNY.

BWOJO,

I did go to Tweeter this weekend. It's kind of a long drive for me; that's why I asked here first. They sell it for $1299... kind of high, but I have until mid-May to trade in my current DVD player and get full credit for what I paid for it (a Yamaha S1500).
I'm only interested in the 2500 as an audio-only player. The more time I spend with the 1500 listening to CD, DVD-A', and SACD the more I like it. I'm not even sure at this point if the 2500 is an upgrade over the 1500 on the audio side.

I saw on the Pioneer thread that you got the 59avi.. congrats.

Man, I had my hands on a 2500 at Cedia LAST YEAR, what was it? September?

I wonder if anyone from Yamaha follows AVS, or cares.

Anyway, ordered my Pioneer 59avi today.

Sorry Yamaha! Hello Pioneer.

Come to think of it, the elite dvd player will look nice sitting on top of my elite cd player.

Thanks to everyone at AVS for their contributions to me pulling the trigger on the 59avi, esp Mimason. Wish I would have bought Mimason's 59 when I had the chance.

Here is the latest from Yamaha...

from the email: "We are now looking at late March early April release of the s2500 dvd player. If you have any more questions please feel free to contact us at our toll free Customer Support line. 1-800-292-2982 Hours: Monday Thru Friday 8 AM to 4 PM Pacific time."

We shall see. Heck I bet in May we will see new model announcements from Denon and pioneer for the fall release timeframe. They may even have firewire output below $1,000 like this Yamaha player. Yamaha is really missing the boat on delaying this player.

It seems every summer all the electronics manufacturers announce new models for the fall release holiday season.

Originally posted by Troytn
Here is the latest from Yamaha...

from the email: "We are now looking at late March early April release of the s2500 dvd player. If you have any more questions please feel free to contact us at our toll free Customer Support line. 1-800-292-2982 Hours: Monday Thru Friday 8 AM to 4 PM Pacific time."

We shall see. Heck I bet in May we will see new model announcements from Denon and pioneer for the fall release timeframe. They may even have firewire output below $1,000 like this Yamaha player. Yamaha is really missing the boat on delaying this player.

It seems every summer all the electronics manufacturers announce new models for the fall release holiday season.

FWIW, March 2005 is what I have been hearing in January already - from Yamaha Europe. I doubt Yamaha enjoys the delay, perhaps it has something to do with parts availability. It seems no coincedence that three models with more or less the same specs (Philips, Marantz DV7600, Yamaha) that were all announced months ago are still not available...

I talked with a person who seemed to be up-to-date on what's happening. He stated that Yamaha is having problems with the firmware, something to do with not getting a good handshake. That's all I know.

I almost bought a Pioneer 59avi, but I just can't see it, with high-def coming into focus in a year or two.

The Pioneer 59avi cost me less than I have spent on several lesser quality dvd players in the last 2-3 yrs combined.

The warranty is 2 years and I hope that it will last much longer than that.

The way I see it, the 59avi should last me long enough for them to work out the bugs of the new HD dvd format and in the new HD dvd players.

As long as it has taken Yamaha to release the 2500, how much longer is it going to be after that release til we have all of the bugs worked out of it?


I'm going to wait a good long time til I get a HD player and enjoy the Pioneer quality in the meantime. (I tell myself that anyway)