Originally posted by Buck's SCSW
I've followed their reviews for PDAs, Computers, and other electronics and they couldn't be further from the mark. CR is about as uneducated as the consumers.

I don't know if I'd go that far but I sure don't agree with their rankings in the micro display catagory. The full report isn't on-line right now. Ranking is based primarly on PQ as judged by a "panel of experts" with easy of use and sound as secondary factors. Guess they couldn't see the rainbows. An asterisk indicates a 'quick pick' -- a recommended value.

The ranking goes like this:

*1 Sammy HL-P5085W
*2 Panny PT-50DL54
*3 Sammy HL-P5685W
4 Hitachi CineForm50VS810
5 Hitachi CineForm 50V710
6 RCA HD61THW263
7 JVC HD-61Z575
*8 Panny PT-50LC14
9 Sammy HL-P5063W
*10 Toshiba 52HM84
11 Sony KDF-50WE655
12 JVC HD-52Z575
13 RCA HD50LPW164


Subjectively, I would have moved all the DLP sets lower (I hate rainbows) and would have put the Toshiba higher up. Despite being number 10 the Toshiba is recommended.

The Sony is marked down partly due to poor DVD playback (huh?) and poor performance with a poor TV signal (I agree here).

CR ranked the CRT sets close to my subjective ranking

List starts at 14

*14 Sony KP-51WS520
*15 Sony KP-57WS520
*16 Panny PT-47X54
17 Zenith R50W47
18 Zenith R57W47
19 JVC AV-56P575
20 Mits WS-48315
21 Toshiba 51H84
22 Daewoo DSJ4710CRA

Sony CRT RP sets are a great value. MSRPon the KP51WS520 is $1699. The 57" is $2000.

I don't regret getting our WE655 over the Sammy. I do occasionaly regret not getting the KP51WS520 and having all that cash left over.

Originally posted by Mark_Venture
Really?? Is this a national thing? or just specific locations?

I walked through my BB this weekend and I didn't see it that low. It was still $2300ish on sale.

Unless you saw the KDF42WE610 maybe? I remember seeing that a month or so ago on clearence for about $1900ish with limited availability.


You're got my attention.... Can you confirm which model it is? The Best Buy near me has it for $2195.99....

Just ordered my new KDF42WE655! for $1225 shipped

I know some of you will think I'm crazy, but I got a refurbished unit, with a chunk of plastic missing from one corner... but they say the tv works perfect. I saw screen shots of hd, so I know it at least works. I buy refurbished and damaged stuff all the time, and have yet to get burned. If I get it and it works... it's gonna be a steal at $1225.

I don't think I can wait 5 more days though....

Originally posted by orccro
Ouch, my March Consumer Reports arrived . . .

I've been pretty disappointed, routinely, with consumer reports' recommendations. They are pretty horrid. One problem, among many, is that they seem to use weird numbers (maybe MSRP) for the "value" portion of the rating, and the value portion virtually dictates the many of their entire rankings.

In any event, I've purchased or considered purchasing a few things because of consumer reports, and I've never thought their recommendations were very good.

I use them pretty much strictly for their service, repair, and reliability discussion.

CNET has much more accurate reviews, IMO.

First, of all, I'd like to comment on the SB broadcast by FOX a couple days ago...haven't posted long in the forums, but I have to say that FOX did a dramatically good job. My prayers were heard and they really did 'corrected' whatever problems they had, inherent in their previous football broadcasts.

Nevertheless, I'm here to clarify a couple of things that have been mistakingly said by TomCat about the Gamma Corrector.

The Gamma Corrector DOES indeed work. I am not speaking on the theoretical side as TomCat implied, but the REALISTIC and PRACTICAL side. I tried this myself. I experimented. What it remedies is the separation of black levels in dark areas of the picture, i.e. more shadow detail and hence less black crush.

Setting Gamma Corrector on HIGH will minimize black crush but you sacrifice a little bit of your black blacks, as they will become slightly 'brighter/gray". I personally abhor black crush over poor blacks and would take poor blacks over black crush any day.

Notice that you should really only use either Gamma Corrector or Black Corrector, as they both appear to counter each other. Black Corrector will give you the impression of giving you better blacks and it will pretty much counter the effects of the Gamma Corrector.

I have my Gamma Corrector on HIGH (with power setting set to reduced; it appears that with power setting set to normal, the white levels are simply increased a notch which in my case makes a subtle but not worthy difference). Other folks have the GC on medium or low; both have positive effects but I find high to have the most benefit (but also has the greatest sacrifice in black level).

The best way to test the GC is while watching HDTV broadcasts with lots of dark areas/scenes. Medical Investigation on NBC is a great example - all of the folks in that show wear black (pretty funny actually when I realized it). CSI, CSI: MI, CSI: NY are also excellent programs to test this option on. The GC will clearly enable you to see more detail in the black parts of the images...i.e. you will now be able to see slight creases/folds in the black clothing of people on the screen.

On another note, I moved my seating back from 8' to about 10.5/11' (from my 55XS). I have to say that while the 'immersive theater' feeling has ben reduced, the clarity seems to be surprisingly better, as SDE (and SSE to some extent) are slightly reduced, giving me the impression that the set all of a sudden obtained a higher fill factor. At 10.5/11', the screen is still big enough to get me a theatrical experience and personally, I'm going to stick with the 10.5/11. Watching CSI now literally looks like looking through a window. A little better on my eyes, too I guess - they have to twitch less/shorter to view things across the screen.

EDIT: It's also surprising in my case that the BC and GC both do not have much of a beneficial effect for my DVD (Philips DVP-642 connected via component) input. I have both settings to OFF, yet I have very little black crush.

Originally posted by Mark_Venture
Really?? Is this a national thing? or just specific locations?

I walked through my BB this weekend and I didn't see it that low. It was still $2300ish on sale.

Unless you saw the KDF42WE610 maybe? I remember seeing that a month or so ago on clearence for about $1900ish with limited availability.

It is the KDF42WE655 and it is national. Just go to bestbuy.com and click "weekly ad" on the left.

Originally posted by OneBadMutha
It is the KDF42WE655 and it is national. Just go to bestbuy.com and click "weekly ad" on the left. Just tried that. The TV is on page 17, but listed as $2499.99. My ZIP is 19805. Its also listed as $2499.99 (regular price) on BB.COM.

Originally posted by Mark_Venture
Just tried that. The TV is on page 17, but listed as $2499.99. My ZIP is 19805. Its also listed as $2499.99 (regular price) on BB.COM.

Sorry, you are right. I'm in the Atlanta area and it is showing as $1997. Now I am really tempted to buy it

Squawks:

The black crush is killing me too. I've been wanting to go the neutral density filter route, but if the gamma corrector settings make an improvement I would like to try that first. Being a 55WF owner I don't have the luxury of user menu controls for Gamma Corrector or Black Corrector. So, could you tell me what setting GC to high does to your service mode settings? From what I can tell the relevant items in DCP-USER would be:

UGAM
RGAM
GGAM
BGAM

And in DCP-AVP

AGAM

Also, while we're at it. What do the Black Corrector settings do to (also in DCP-USER):

UDCT
DCTR
DCT1
DCT2
UAPD
APDL
APDK
APDD
APDA
APDH
LSCL
UDCI
DCIE
DAUT
DGAI
DLPF
DINF

And in DCP-AVP

ADCI
AAPD
ADCT

I would be eternally grateful if you (or anyone) could help with this.

Thanks
RAF

Originally posted by OneBadMutha
Sorry, you are right. I'm in the Atlanta area and it is showing as $1997. Now I am really tempted to buy it

Not only that but I can bring the flyer into Sears and get an extra $50 off after their PM + 10% (sears has it for 2499)... tempting...

Hello all. This is my first post although I have been monitoring this great forum since last June. Certainly fantastic info available here that I have based important decisions on. First, let me say that anyone who is torn between DLP, plasma, or the Sony GWIV series I have nothing but great things to say about the GW series Sony TV's. I originally purchased a KDF-42WE610 last July and was thrilled with it's perfection right out of the box. No dead pixels or anything-perfectly happy except I wished for bigger. I like to tweak but that picture in standard mode for TV broadcast or even my old Pioneer DVD player was so good I didn't touch a thing. I wanted a bigger screen at the time (the 50) but the price last summer was too high for me as a newbie to the series. I recently saw a great sale (for Canada anyway) on the KDF-60WF655 and was able to sell my 42 to enable my upgrade. Once again the 60 came out of the box ready to enjoy with a great picture and no dead pixels at all. This one I have tweaked in pro mode and have achieved a very satisfactory result with only having made one adjustment in the service menu (so far) but multiple adjustments and readjustments to the regular video menu. I will post my settings in the tweaks thread. Note that I have also recently bought the new Sony DVP-NS975V player and my tweaks are based on that player. For those of you prospective purchasers who are concerned about "screen door" I have to say it is very much overly hyped---it is not a problem to myself or anyone else who has seen both these TV's. I actually had to MAKE people see it and when they finally saw it they thought I was crazy to look for it or even mention it. I agree with other people on this forum that it is more aptly described as a "pantyhose" effect than screendoor but is ONLY visible in light, bright scenes and only if you focus your eyes to look for it. It's like looking through a window and deliberately refocussing your eyes to concentrate on the cleanliness of the glass. As far as blacks go I have also found it to be a non-issue for me or anyone else who has been over to watch. It is certainly tweakable to satisfaction to all but the most picky videofiles as far as I'm concerned. The lack of worry over screen-burn was a major plus for me in my original buying decision as we all still watch a lot of 4:3 broadcasts with channel logos--right? As far as DLP goes I just don't understand the gamble involved with buying a TV that 20% (I understand) of the population will see rainbows and maybe even get headaches from watching it. What if your child or future child or wife/husband has these symptoms? We all know what used TV'S are worth. I know I do after selling my 42. Anyway I will close this lengthy post by thanking all the members here for some really useful info and hope my experiences will help somebody else make a decision on a new TV. The Sony GWIV has certainly been a great experience for me and my family.

I tried posting this in the main forum and didn't get any answers so I'll try posting this question here.
I just bought a Sony 42WE655 and so far I'm really very happy with the picture and performance. I am having one nagging issue though. Whenever I use the picture next to picture function when I select the picture on the right there is a soft high pitched tone that comes over with the sound. This only seems to happen when I am using cable or an antenna as the source of the picture on right window. With a DVD player hooked up through non-component connections the sound sounds fine. Is anyone else having this problem? Is it some kind of interference issue or is it something in the tuner in the TV? Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!

Originally posted by cmassa
Don't have to worry about burn-in. It does not occur in an LCD set. As far as I know, the high altitude setting runs the fan faster and longer. Don't know if this would actually prolong bulb life.

Chris

Sorry, Chris, let me clarify:

When I was speaking of "burn-in" I was referring to the lamp, not the screen. :)

Originally posted by Andrew535
...The Sony is marked down partly due to poor DVD playback (huh?) and poor performance with a poor TV signal...

Odd, since Sony has historically had the best-performing tuners around. When I was going door-to-door doing trouble calls for cable (many years ago) I would see 25 sets a day, back-to-back. The Sonys always had the best performance on low signal, the RCAs were always the worst. Also well shielded...remove the input and get pure snow ( a good thing), remove the input on others and get weak pictures (not so good of a thing), an indication of local pickup problems. The only tuner I ever saw that made better pictures was the one on the original 14 hr Tivo.

CR always SEEMS to know what they are talking about, until they take on something that you may already be an actual expert in, whether its house paint or condoms. Once you look behind the curtain, you realize that the casual opinion of a couple of college interns who spent a grand total of 3 days "testing" something they probably never understood well in the first place holds little water next to decades of experience in a particular field. I would guess that many of this forum's regular posters probably have already forgotten more about RPTV than those yokels will ever know.

Originally posted by Squawks
...I'm here to clarify a couple of things that have been mistakingly said by TomCat about the Gamma Corrector.

The Gamma Corrector DOES indeed work. I am not speaking on the theoretical side as TomCat implied, but the REALISTIC and PRACTICAL side...What it remedies is the separation of black levels in dark areas of the picture, i.e. more shadow detail and hence less black crush.

Setting Gamma Corrector on HIGH will minimize black crush but you sacrifice a little bit of your black blacks...

On another note, I moved my seating back ...SDE (and SSE to some extent) are slightly reduced...

Jeez, partner. You're apparently aptly named. :)

While we're clarifying everything let's set the record straight that I never said that the gamma control doesn't work. If you'd care to actually read my post what I said was that it may indeed have some small benefit, that it's difficult to tell without controlled images, that I am curious to try such experiments, but that IMHO you can get pretty much all of the adjustment regarding black performance needed without resorting to it. Nothing was implied, but apparently a lot was inferred that should not have been. The only things "mistakenly said" were by someone other than myself, looks like. So let's dispense with the revisionist history, thankyouverymuch.

I'm happy that it helped you improve PQ, and your experimental findings are valuable, but as a tool to remove or improve black crush, that argument is moot on a display that doesn't suffer from black crush when the brightness and picture controls are set properly in the first place. If gamma correction can help perception of black detail, or perception of absolute black level, and it might have some small benefit in that area, I'm all for it. But my 60XS has no black crush issue to fix, and if it did, adjusting gamma would be exactly the wrong way to fix it.

There is a distinct difference between black crush and black detail performance in that they are entirely separate issues. Black crush can obliterate detail, but how well a display resolves detail in dark areas is something quite different.

Black detail performance typically refers to aspects of the transfer characteristic and its linearity while black crush typically refers to signal clipping due to attempts to operate outside of the transfer curve. Unless if by accident, one can only benefit from attempts to improve either (without allowing the adjustment of one to not interact with the adjustment of the other) only if one truly can understand that distinction.

Since gamma correction is only intended to modify that transfer curve linearity, any improvement in black crush can only be a happy accident due to normally unwanted interaction rather than from a purposeful, educated adjustment of gamma. It is that unwanted interaction that makes gamma adjustment so hard to do in the first place. It affects black crush, but it shouldn't, making it necessary to readjust pix and brightness each time to compensate, which makes A/B comparison nearly impossible. It just ain't easy, and even harder to do on changing video.

Since it seems hard enough to adjust everything properly without unwanted interaction when you DO understand what is going on, adjusting the wrong control to cure a completely different problem seems like handcuffing one's self needlessly. But good luck with that. I'm getting the HD Tivo this week, so I'll do a little experimenting of my own.

And I think its also probably pretty old news that sitting further back will reduce perception of SDE.

I just got my KDF-55WF655 unit in time for the superbowl. Wow.. what a unit, I am so happy with it.

Originally posted by TomCat
Odd, since Sony has historically had the best-performing tuners around.

CR always SEEMS to know what they are talking about, until they take on something that you may already be an actual expert in,

Yes and Yes.

I only can report anecdotal evidence. Our ancient KV-20EXR10 and KV-27IForget both look better with the lousy analog cable we get from Comcast. I'm not sure it is the tuner. Might just be the -50WE655 making the noise bigger or the older sets smearing out the noise.

In any case Sony could have done a better job on SD noise reduction.

The GWIV sets don't do a very good job with poor digital signals either. At least not out of the box. Compression artifacts in the demo loop at CC were worse on the Sony than the Sammy right next to it. I haven't seen any poor digital performance since I got the set home.

Makes me suspect of the source CR's experts were using.

Originally posted by TomCat

CR always SEEMS to know what they are talking about, until they take on something that you may already be an actual expert in, whether its house paint or condoms. Once you look behind the curtain, you realize that the casual opinion of a couple of college interns who spent a grand total of 3 days "testing" something they probably never understood well in the first place holds little water next to decades of experience in a particular field.

Are you implying college interns aren't experts in condoms?

I have a KDF60WF655 and love the set. I have one major issue - in 4:3 SD or HD I get a keystone effect. The difference in the width of my "sidebars" is about 3/8" (5" wide at top and 4 5/8" at bott - both sides). I sit about 10ft from the screen and it is very noticible. Any suggestions for corrective action? Thanks!

SF

On HD on A.B.C. From L.A. on Direct Tv ..they are using a different scale for SD...I wish everybody did it ..You only have 2 inch black lines on left & right. loooks much better than 4 inches or so each side....

Look, folks, this board is fairly important to those of us who have these sets and need to know how to get the most out of them. But it becomes significantly less valuable if you have to wade through people taking shots at each other to extract the information

So stop being so freaking fragile, everyone. Quibbling over what you said or inferred and going on at length to defend yourself on a point that 98 percent of us don't care about is going to ruin this thread.

There are plenty of sports message boards and politics message boards where people savage each other every day that one can this out of their system. It usually reverts to people griping about "the first amendment" and then much worse. Can we avoid that here?

Hi everyone... long time browser, first time poster. Thanks for all the great information. You guys rock!

Now, having skimmed every single one of these 130 or so thread pages, I get the general feeling that this Sony 42we655 is the way to go, considering my price range ($2500), tv use (mainly movies), and room size (less than 400 sq. ft.). I love reading about your tweaks and ranges, but honestly... I'm not too picky when it comes to PQ, when anything's going to be a step above the CRT 27" I have now. The presentation on display at the stores I've visited has blown me away.

My situation: I don't have cable, but people come over weekly to watch dvds. I've heard that dvd display isn't up to par, but I've stuck with the Sony family for all my A/V equipment, so I probably won't gripe. And from what it seems, I can get fine HD reception from the main networks by a Zenith indoor HD antenna (especially in the Los Angeles area), should I want to have a sporting event or Academy Awards viewing party.

So simply, should I jump on this purchase (because writing about it just makes it more exciting), or should I hold my $2500 for the next model rollout? I've already bought a cool stand, the antenna, and a new Progressive Scan dvd player... all I need is that darn tv set.

Thanks for your help, and have a great day!

I have a Mitsu DLP and the rainbows are bothering me enough to consider returning it for an LCD. Of the LCDs I am looking mostly at the latest 55" Sony. I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can help with:

1) I think the picture generally looks quite good but in some fast moving sequences it appears to me that the images get a bit ragged, as if the LCD can't quite keep up with the action. Do you folks who own these notice this effect?

2) How good/bad is the SDE on these latest Sony's? Does anyone think there is a better LCD in this range in that respect?

3) Has anyone checked via DVE or Avia the performance in rendering the high frequency test patterns? Does the Sony resolve them all well or is there a frequency band that does not resolve well?

4) Does the native 788p resolution cause any problems converting from 720p and/or 1080i OTA signals? I've always liked the idea of the DLP with the native 720p handling at least the 720p OTA boradcasts.

5) Does anyone know the fan noise vs a DLP set? The DLP set is pretty loud but manageable and I'm wondering if LCDs are generally quieter or louder. I believe they are quiter but am curious.

I'm not looking to start a DLP vs LCD war here as other threads do that well enough already. I will happily own up to what I think the DLP does better than the LCD but also where it is worse. In my case I like the DLP immensely except that the rainbows are a real problem for me.

Thanks.

Originally posted by chalkster

My situation: I don't have cable, but people come over weekly to watch dvds. I've heard that dvd display isn't up to par, but I've stuck with the Sony family for all my A/V equipment, so I probably won't gripe.


chalkster,

My advice would be to go to a store, bring along some DVD's you watch and see what they look like on the set. Buy a set that pleases you, be careful when you "hear" things like "isn't up to par".

By the way, I have the 55WF and I think DVD's look just fine..................

Originally posted by chalkster
...I've heard that dvd display isn't up to par, but I've stuck with the Sony family for all my A/V equipment, so...
I purchased a KDF42WE566 a few weeks ago. My Living room is 13x13. Sofa and TV on opposite walls.

Using my non-progressive Pioneer DV440 dvd player via component cables looks very very very good. Enough so that I am NOT going to get a new dvd player. :)

Short of buying one, taking it home and trying it out, follow NoPlasmaYet' suggestion, see if you can view some of the DVD's in the store and see what you think.

AugustWest, I know what you mean by the LCD not keeping up to well on fast camera movements. I have a 55" sony GWIV and I can see that. Overall though I'm super happy with it, and its far from enough to make me regret buying it. It has been my experience (and I'm sure others can argue) that 1080i looks much better on my 55wf655. Although, the SuperBowl looked awesome in 720p, the best display of that resolution to date. I can hear my fan when I mute the AVR. I sit about 12' away, and I can hear it. I can't hear it with any sound on at all. I looked at DLP too, but liked the look of the LCD better and I did not see any DLP rainbows in my viewing tests in-store.

Originally posted by August West
I have a Mitsu DLP and the rainbows are bothering me enough to consider returning it for an LCD. Of the LCDs I am looking mostly at the latest 55" Sony. I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can help with:

1)... 5)...
Thanks.

We have the -50WE655

1. We don't notice this. We don't watch a ton of sports though. SuperBowl looked fine. I did notice motion and other artifacts on the poorly compressed demo loop at CC. Haven't seen them on any broadcast.

2. We don't see the SDE unless we are closer than Sony's recomeneded minumum viewing distance. Someone with exceptional eyesight might.

3. Haven't gotten around to that yet.

4. Haven't noticed that. Good OTA 1080i looks about the same as good OTA 720p.

5. We haven't been able to A/B compare fan noise in a quite enviroment.
The fan on our set is audible but not very loud. The Motorolla DVR makes more noise. So does the 'fridge in the next room.

And I agree with you on DLP. We were down to Samsung or Sony. The rainbows made our final choice.

Originally posted by August West
I have a Mitsu DLP and the rainbows are bothering me enough to consider returning it for an LCD. Of the LCDs I am looking mostly at the latest 55" Sony. I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can help with:

1) I do not notice a significan problem with motion sequences on high quality input sources such as DVD and HD on my sony xs955. I think it's about the same as the DLP I've seen. With directv in SD, there are issues, but I don't think that's the set's fault.

2) For me, I only see SDE if I go close to the screen. It seems to disappear at different points for different people. For me, it's 5 feet on my 60 inch screen. Others report slightly further back.

4) PQ is subjective. I like the Sony's HD picture better than the DLP pictures I have seen, but I am much more familiar with the Samsungs. This includes 720p source material. I don't see a meaningful difference caused by 788.

5) There are reports of very significant fan noise with the GWIVs. Some have sets they describe as very loud and very distracting. I have not heard my fan yet; either that or I don't know what it sounds like. The fan in my directivo, by comparison, seems rather loud to me and drives me crazy.

I just picked up my 42we655 last Friday and thought I would add my shopping and initial opinions to this thread as I used this forum to educate myself before making my purchase. It is only fair to contribute back. Please keep in mind that, although I consider myself fairly competent and experienced with A/V and audio equipment, I am by no means implying that I really know what I am doing :)

Due to a remodeling of my family room I needed to replace my Toshiba 42HDX82 RPTV and needed a tabletop TV of at least 42". I spent 3 weeks visiting many local stores and also researching the internet about my possible choices. I really ended up doing too much research and finally had to through it all out and go with what my eye were telling me. After my initial viewing and price consideration I narrowed my choices down to the Samsung and Toshiba 46" DLPs, the 44" Toshiba HD2+ DLP made by LG, and the Sony GW and Hitachi 42" LCD's. I had a hard time deciding between DLP and LCD but in the end LCD won since I had a couple brief rainbow experiences with the DLPs and I concluded that LCD would probably be better for the wife and kids to watch their daytime SD programs on. That pretty much left the Sony and the Hitachi LCD. After doing an extensive amount of side-by-side viewing of these sets with SD, HD, and DVD sources and having my wife also give me her opinion, I went with the Sony KDF-42WE655. To be honest I think I would have been happy with either as far as PQ is concerned becuase they are both very good. I gave the Sony the final nod because I thought the PQ was a little better for both SD and HD (using the integrated tuners) and since this set will be used for watching SD shows off Directv and local OTA SD channeal a good amount that was important. DVD PQ was a toss up once I adjusted the setting of both set to be similar. I was not to keen on the overall design of the Hitachi's case when compared to the Sony although this would not have been a deciding factor if I thought the PQ of the Hitachi was the better of the two.

Now that I made my choice I took it home and get it all set up. I hooked my source up as follows:

Directivo - Svideo
Panasonic DVD - Component Video
OTA HD - Integrated Tuner
XBOX - Component Video


The moment of truth had arrived. I pushed the On button on the remote......Ok, nothing happened because I forgot to plug the thing in.....try again......I pushed the On button. It took a few seconds for the set to fire up due to having to heat the bulb. I let the picture warm up and fade in to its default levels before I really took a good look at it.

My first impression was WOW and this was with the SD Directv source. Also keep in mind that I have not yet started adjusting the setting. I really didn't know what to expect compared to my Toshiba RPTV that i have been watching for the last 2 years but I guess I was expecting the SD picture to be about the same or worse but I was very surprised. It was considerably better. There was, of couse, a difference in quality between channels with some being worse that others but I believe they were all better than my old tv. Better colors, better clarity, and now I don't have to worry about burn-in so I can quit using the annoying stretch modes (although the stretch modes on the Toshiba were the best I had seen). Everyone on TV has suddenly lost about 20 pounds.

I then switched to the OTA HD tuner. I had stuck a Radioshack powered stick antenna I had laying around up in my garage attic and hooked it up the the TV just wondering if by chance I would be lucky enough to pull in ANY of the local HD channels. I live about 20-25 miles from the nearest of the transmitters and did not expect much until I bought a better rooftop antenna. Boy was I suprised when I ran the "Auto Program" on the Digital channels. First it found one, then 2, then many. It found almost all of my available local HD channels. After programming I started scrolling though the available channels. I have not had much experience with HD besides what I watched in the stores and a lot of that is a looped recorded HD source. I was really surprised by the quality of the picture of the OTA channels. Of couses some were better than others but overall they were awesome. There was a show with aerial views of Alaska on the PBS HD channel and I was really amazed at the color and detail of the picture. I think I may have started to drool:) This was on Saturday and it just hit me that on Sunday I was going to get to watch my first HD Super Bowl. Cool! Called some friend and told them to bring beer!

I also did some tests with some DVD's. I popped in StarWars EPII, U571, Tomb Raider, Nemo, LOTR, etc. all were awesome.

I then fired up the Xbox as I was a little concerned about some things I read about gaming on an LCD. I can say that, at least for me, it works great. Halo2 , Madden, Links, Rallysport, etc. all looked great with no ghosting or motion artifacts I could notice.

After spending some time with the set and leaving it at the out-of-the-box defaults I started playing with the adjustments and seeing what my options were. I will eventually go through the calibration with my Avia DVD but for know I just went with what looks good to me by my eyes. The default picture mode is "Vivid" and it is definitly that. There is also a "Standard" (I think it is call that) and a "Pro" mode. The Setting of each of these modes can be tweaked so you really can customize each of these to your likings. I do find the default vivid mode a bit bright and the pro mode a bit soft and dark but it really is a personal preference. As I said, I plan to do more tweaking/calibration in the near future once I get a few more hours on this set and I will try and post anything I find of interest.

OK let me see if I can pull this into a summary:
It can be pretty common for A/V equipment to perform better in the store showroom especially if you buy from specialized dealers as opposed to the electronics superstores. Stores try to setup equipment in a controlled environment with consistant sources that they can control. This sometimes can lead to a slight disappointment with performance once you get it into your usually less than optimal viewing/listening environment and different quality of sources at home. I can honestly say that I was even more impressed with the performance of this set at home than I was at the stores I viewed it at.
I think I would have probably have have been happy with each of the LCD or DLP sets that I evaluated during my selection process. I think each excelled in it's own way. Some may be better is SD or HD. Some may have better black levels or crisper picture. In my non-expert opinion the Sony 42WE655 was the best combination of all of these factors. I have yet to experience any "screendoor effect" and really so far, have zero complaints about this tv.

After all this however, I am still contemplating returing this set. I am considering upgrading it to the 50WE655.

Same experience as dwpeters, only mine is a 50we655 I picked up at a local CC last Thursday... I too am contemplating upgrading (to the 55WF655).

I agree this TV is the best overall considering all factors.... my Bro-in-Law has a 50" Sammy DLP(HD3 chip) and he is impressed with the Wide Zoom mode not available on his Sammy DLP. DVD's on the Zenith 318 DVD player set at 720P is spectacular on the 50WE655. We are watching our entire DVD collection over again just to see how it looks on the widescreen! Dish SD is good on the 510 DVR, but I do want HD eventually when the 942 HD DVR comes down in price.

I am extremely pleased with this TV(other than wanting it bigger), a first for me, in 2001 I went through 6 sets before settling on a Panny Tau 32" CRT EDTV.

We don't notice this. We don't watch a ton of sports though. SuperBowl looked fine. I did notice motion and other artifacts on the poorly compressed demo loop at CC. Haven't seen them on any broadcast.

It's funny that you say that because it was at a CC that I saw this. I've also seen it at Best Buy. Thanks for the feedback.

For me, I only see SDE if I go close to the screen. It seems to disappear at different points for different people. For me, it's 5 feet on my 60 inch screen. Others report slightly further back.

5 feet for 60" seems pretty close. My viewing position is more like 10' back and if I'm looking for a 55" I would think this is plenty far away.

Thanks.

I have a KDF60WF655 and love the set. I have one major issue - in 4:3 SD or HD I get a keystone effect. The difference in the width of my "sidebars" is about 3/8" (5" wide at top and 4 5/8" at bott - both sides). I sit about 10ft from the screen and it is very noticible. Any suggestions for corrective action? Thanks!

The short answer is that you can't fix it. I have the same problem on my 42WE655, albeit to a slightly lesser degree than what you describe. Sony had a tech come out to my house and he told me that the keystoning I see is within spec, and actually better than most he'd seen (mine's off by about 1/8" - 3/16" on either side). I actually don't notice it too much any more, but it really bugged me at first. Since I'd already gone through two prior 42" Grand Wegas before getting this one, I figured that I'd never get one that was perfect, and this one was the best compromise of the three I'd had.

I did read that someone managed to shim the optical block in their GWIII to fix a keystoning problem, but I'd be afraid that'd introduce more problems than it'd solve. I was suprised to learn that there's no mechanical adjustment on the optical block to allow this to be corrected, but apparently there isn't. I suppose if it's really bugging you that much you could go for an exchange, but then you might get dead pixels, bad convergence, or color nonuniformity (all of which my previous two sets had to one degree or another).

two questions about my new 42" GW -

1) Got a black pixel in the lower left corner right out of the box. It drives me nuts and I find my eye constantly drawn to it. My gf says deal with it cause it could be worse. Should I try and exchange the set or learn to live with it?

2) Is there not a "last" or "previous" channel button on the remote?

Lantano:
I am in the same boat. I have the 50655 and am thinking of upgrading to the 55. I don't hate the 50 case like some, but definitely think that the 55 WF has a better, more pleasing case for the long run. In two or three years all that silver on the 42 and 50 655's may get old. I also am very glad that I didn't chicken out and go for the 42 instead of the 50". My question is: how far away is your viewing position. Mine is about 9' which seems from all the posts to be marginal in terms of getting the 55", recognizing that it is well within the Sony admittedly biased recommendations.

My viewing distance is 10 to 14 feet depending on the chairs or couch positions in the living room. The TV is sitting in a corner of the sunken living room attached to the entry way & dining room/bar area in an open floor plan. The whole area is 26x24 room with a 2-story vaulted ceiling including balcony and split level stairs. (One big ass room). Actually makes the 50" Sony look small (the 32" was non-existant in this area).

Question to all - I noticed tonight with all the lights on there is a faint brownish gray 3-4" circle (more like a splatter circle radianting outward) located on the center top portion of the screen when the TV is turned off. I also noticed it when changing channels on the Dish DVR on the brief flash to black before the signal is tuned in. Could this be the crop circles I read about or just lights reflecting off the screen? Should I get CC to trade it out? (Maybe this is the excuse to trade up to the 55WF655) Thursday makes 1 week with the TV.

Here's a pic of the spot

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=12674&size=big&sort=1&cat=500

Originally posted by lnin0
1) Got a black pixel in the lower left corner right out of the box. It drives me nuts and I find my eye constantly drawn to it. My gf says deal with it cause it could be worse. Should I try and exchange the set or learn to live with it? Its up to you. 1 bad pixel might be considered "acceptable" by mfg standards, but its your money and you have to be happy with your purchase. I got luckey... No dead pixels on mine.

Originally posted by lnin0
2) Is there not a "last" or "previous" channel button on the remote? The RM-Y915 remote that came with my 42" has a "jump" button. That will take you back and forth between the last and current channels.

Originally posted by Lantano
Question to all - I noticed tonight with all the lights on there is a faint brownish gray 3-4" circle (more like a splatter circle radianting outward) located on the center top portion of the screen when the TV is turned off. ... I noticed the thing, but mine is more of a "streak," is off center and i can only see it when the blinds on the sliding glass door are open during the day.

Since I can't "see it" any other time, I thought it was glare, then I started moving the TV around. It stays in the same spot so I know its not glare.

I'm not sure what to do. Since the store probably wont be able to see it, I'm not sure they'd take it back. Plus, I'm worried about the possibility of dead pixels on another set. And I don't have a truck, so I'd have to beg friends to help.

Originally posted by August West
I
5) Does anyone know the fan noise vs a DLP set? The DLP set is pretty loud but manageable and I'm wondering if LCDs are generally quieter or louder. I believe they are quiter but am curious.


August,

I like to comment on this. I have a 55WF (second one, first one had a really loud fan) and I would not call the fan "real quiet", but it's not loud enough for me try a different set. I find that the room affects the sound. Where I sit I don't hear the fan, but I will hear it in other parts of the room. So room acoustics definitely play a big part. So does the distance from the wall (more is better, bad grammar, but it makes sense).

The only way you will find out (if the fan bothers you, or not) is to try it in you room.

Lantano:

With that room size you should go for a 60". My room is 20x24 and the 60" xs is perfect.

posted by Lantano
I noticed tonight with all the lights on there is a faint brownish gray 3-4" circle (more like a splatter circle radianting outward) located on the center top portion of the screen when the TV is turned off. I also noticed it when changing channels on the Dish DVR on the brief flash to black before the signal is tuned in. Could this be the crop circles I read about or just lights reflecting off the screen?

I have the same spot or glow with the set off (KF50WE610) It is not a defect just the room lighting passing throught the screen and bouncing off the lens back onto the screen.

I have been reading through these pages for over 3 months now. I finally landed on the 55WF655 two weeks ago and took the plunge. My setup is as follows:

55WF655
Denon 1700 (old model but still kicks ***)
SA 8300 HD STB connected component and coax audio
LG Upconverting DVD connected HDMI and coax audio
XBox connected with HD pack and optical audio

I have been really happy except for one issue. It seems that on most channels, SB DB and even HD, I have fuzzy words. I have tried different connection types, but I have not done any type of calibration with a disk suck as AVIA or DVE. My question is if this type of calibration would help with the blurred words? I have not yet been into the SM either. Not going to go there quite yet. Any advice would be appreciated. And thanks for the threads and knowledge.;)

Originally posted by eddiscus
I have the same spot or glow with the set off (KF50WE610) It is not a defect just the room lighting passing throught the screen and bouncing off the lens back onto the screen.

Thanks for the info, good to know it's not a potential problem that will get worse over time. Although, I still might be going for the 55WF655 if CC will deal; retail is $2,999 right now. Anybody have an opinion on what price range(or % off retail) they could be worked down to? My wife will absolutely not go for the 60" version.

Originally posted by BSWITZ

I have been really happy except for one issue. It seems that on most channels, SB DB and even HD, I have fuzzy words. I have tried different connection types, but I have not done any type of calibration with a disk suck as AVIA or DVE. My question is if this type of calibration would help with the blurred words? I have not yet been into the SM either. Not going to go there quite yet. Any advice would be appreciated. And thanks for the threads and knowledge.;)

BSWITZ,

What picture mode are you in?

If I understand your question right, I am mostly in standard and vivid is too bright and I have not had time to play with Pro mode.

Originally posted by eddiscus
I have the same spot or glow with the set off (KF50WE610) It is not a defect just the room lighting passing throught the screen and bouncing off the lens back onto the screen.

For anyone else wondering, eddiscus is correct.

I think I saw this question (or similar) asked, but I lost track of the thread...

Has anyone here connected a laptop to their 50WE655? If so, did you use a VGA-Component cable? S-video? How was the image?

Thanks,
Jeff

Keep going back and forth between a few different Sony RP LCD TVs. KDF-55XS955, KDF-55WF655, and KDF-42WE655 (wife's choice-cheaper).

I'm trying to figure out the differences between the 55XS955 and the 55WF655. I can get the XS for around 3200 and the WF for around 2800. The only real differences I've seen is the additional HDMI with the XS, audio, and cosmetics. I chatted with online chat person as SonyStyle because of some info I had heard from a salesperson about the two having different video processors.

"Chat Transcript - 02/10/2005 12:52 PM
Hi, my name is Phil. How may I help you?
Unknown: Hi Phil,
Phil: Hello,
Unknown: I wanted to see what the differences were between the KDF-55XS955
Unknown: and the KDF-55WF655
Unknown: Do they have the same video processor?
Unknown: A salesperson had told me that there was a 10 bit processor in one
and an 8 bit in the other.
Phil: Please give me a moment while I check on this.
Unknown: Just trying to weigh my options and see if there are any real
differences in the two sets besides audio, cosmetics, and the XS having an
additional HDMI input.
Phil: The 55" KDF-55XS955 includes the "Live Color" color enhancement function,
which improves blues and greens for more natural overall color without affecting
reds and skin tones.
Phil: The KDF-55WF655 television does not have this feature.
Phil: The KDF-55XS955 television has 2 HDMI inputs.
Phil: The KDF-55WF655 television has 1 HDMI input.
Unknown: I see...are there any other differences?
Phil: These are the only differences between these two televisions.
Phil: Which one would you prefer?
Unknown: So does having "Live Color" mean that it has a different processor or
is it just an additional adjustment?
Phil: It is one of the Advanced Video Settings available with the KDF-55XS955
television.
Unknown: Okay...thank you Phil, I appreciate your time. Thanks.
Unknown: disconnected
Phil: disconnected"

Sounds like the live color is just an additional setting and that they have the same processors. Has anyone noticed or heard of any differences in the two models? I need help with my decision. I really like (and want) the XS but don't know if I can justify the additional money to get better audio, an additional HDMI input, and another adjustment setting. Especially when the wife likes the 42.

Thanks for you time, I greatly appreciate it!

I heard from a Sony level 3 tech that they have the same engine and bulb. Since I have a decent home theater system, I didn't want to spend the money on the XS. Besides the WF sounds pretty good on its own.

Having 2 HDMI inputs and the extra tweakability in the user menu would be nice but imho not worth $400.

Originally posted by cjunior
Sounds like the live color is just an additional setting and that they have the same processors. Has anyone noticed or heard of any differences in the two models?
The XS955 also has several (5?) other Advanced Menu settings beyond the Live Color setting, including the Gamma Corrector setting, that are not in the user menus for the WF655. For some XS955 owners, the Gamma setting makes or breaks the black levels and shadow detail in the GWIVs. I believe that the Gamma setting may be available in the Service Menu for the WF655, but not in the user menus.

Michael

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
The XS955 also has several (5?) other Advanced Menu settings beyond the Live Color setting, including the Gamma Corrector setting, ..... I believe that the Gamma setting may be available in the Service Menu for the WF655, but not in the user menus.Michael

Thanks for mentioning this, and coming back to it. I asked the original question about GC, and I'm grateful to both Tomcat and Squawks for providing much insight.

As an aside, I did not see their respective posts as off topic or ones that should be posted elsewhere (as may have been suggested by someone).

Thanks for the info about Gamma Corrector in the GWIV.

E

I find that the room affects the sound. Where I sit I don't hear the fan, but I will hear it in other parts of the room. So room acoustics definitely play a big part

Noplasma,

Yeah, on the Mitsu DLP pwner's thread we had a pretty good discussion on this. I found that people who put their DLPs in an entertainment center (that is, with cabinet material on all sides and back of the TV generally said they could not hear any fan noise worth mentioning. This is similat to my experience in a relatively quiet store. My TV is in a corner and just on a pedestal, so I know I am reflecting the fan noise off the corner badly. I bought about $100 of throw pillows and stuffed them around the sides and this got the noise to a point where I am OK with it. Assuming the LCD is no louder (unfortuntely, my Radio Shack SPL meter does not measure below 50 dB and the fan noise in front of the TV is below that level so it's hard to compare) I should be OK if I make the jump to LCD.

I have been really happy except for one issue. It seems that on most channels, SB DB and even HD, I have fuzzy words. I have tried different connection types, but I have not done any type of calibration with a disk suck as AVIA or DVE. My question is if this type of calibration would help with the blurred words? I have not yet been into the SM either. Not going to go there quite yet. Any advice would be appreciated. And thanks for the threads and knowledge.

The DVE type "calibration" is a pretty basic setup that helps you with your contrast, brightness, tint, etc and may help you out. I think the DVE is well worth the $20 but I have not used Avia. I have a DLP not LCD so can't offer a set of settings that would be meaningful but I would suggest posting your video settings and asking other GWIV types for a critique/comparison.

Thanks for the helpful info guys.

I'm still riding the fence and can't seem to decide which one I will get.

My brother wants me to get the JVC D-iLA, but I'm pretty set on the Sony.

My wife can't seem to understand the agony that I'm going through. She just says, "Yeah, bummer that you have three grand to spend on a TV ;)"

[i]My brother wants me to get the JVC D-iLA, but I'm pretty set on the Sony.[/B]

A couple of thoughts here. If you're convinced that one technology is better than the other, that should probably make your decision. And if the decision is between the JVC and the XS, the price difference is significant. The WF looks roughly comparable in price to the JVC.

But, otherwise, if you're on the fence, here are a couple of differences in these tvs: (1) the XS has an extra hdmi input, and (2) if cable card/QAM will be important to you, sony has an edge, and (3) it's nice to have the internal HD tuner, and (4) if you have a sony digital camera you can use the memory stick.

I didn't think too much about the cablecard thing when I was deciding, because I have directv. But one of my local digital channels is just impossible to get over the air for me and I don't live in a market where I can get it through directv. It turns out that my cable company sends it unscrambled as part of its basic cable package, and it comes over the line already in my house because I use them for high speed internet, so I can get it with the sony. Kind of taught me an important lesson that the more features the better -- even if they seem esoteric and not something that interests you, all other things being equal you just never know when that memory stick or extra HDMI input might come in handy.

....I've had both in the last month!! I originally had the 55XS and it is a superb set in every way. However, I wanted a 60incher and opted to get the 60WF for a couple of hundred dollars less than the 55XS. The main differences are inputs in the back, including one less HDMI on the WF series. Might think about that for any future upgrades via HDMI. HDMI will be a standard due to HDCP. The XS also has the 'Advanced Video' adjustments that the WF does NOT have. The 'Live Color' is a nice feature on the XS, but not the end all, be all. Other adjustments that are helpfull to the overall picture on the XS are the 'Black Enhancer' and 'Chroma' and 'Gamma'. Fortunately, I have a Denon DVD-2900 player into my 60WF via component. The 2900 has internal adjustment for black enhancing and gamma if I need to make any changes. I never used the 'Chroma' adjustment on the 55XS that I had. In a nutshell, the extra picture adjustments on the XS weren't enough to sway me to keep it. And I still have the HDMI input to use on my WF since my Denon 2900 uses component inputs.

If saving the few hundred dollars between sets is an important aspect to you, and you will use the set for DVD watching, I would get the WF and invest in a top quality DVD player(unless you already have that part covered?). Also, don't skimp on quality cables, be they component or HDMI.

I can honestly tell you that comparing my DVD PQ between the XS and WF determined that with proper calibration with the AVIA disc that the WF is every bit as great as the XS.

Looks are subjective, and I really like the looks of both. The XS looks more futuristic to my eyes, but I actually prefer the look of the WF a bit more.

You would be very happy with either. If you need answers to other specific questions, fire away here or PM me! Hope this helped a bit?

george

Originally posted by TomCat
...IMHO you can get pretty much all of the adjustment regarding black performance needed without resorting to it.

... If gamma correction can help perception of black detail, or perception of absolute black level, and it might have some small benefit in that area, I'm all for it. But my 60XS has no black crush issue to fix, and if it did, adjusting gamma would be exactly the wrong way to fix it.

Since gamma correction is only intended to modify that transfer curve linearity, any improvement in black crush can only be a happy accident due to normally unwanted interaction rather than from a purposeful, educated adjustment of gamma. It is that unwanted interaction that makes gamma adjustment so hard to do in the first place. It affects black crush, but it shouldn't, making it necessary to readjust pix and brightness each time to compensate, which makes A/B comparison nearly impossible. It just ain't easy, and even harder to do on changing video.

Since it seems hard enough to adjust everything properly without unwanted interaction when you DO understand what is going on, adjusting the wrong control to cure a completely different problem seems like handcuffing one's self needlessly. But good luck with that. I'm getting the HD Tivo this week, so I'll do a little experimenting of my own....

There is much commentary about Power Settings, Brightness, Picture, etc. as set by eye or calibration at AVSForum. However, much less is written about Gamma Correction. I'm now convinced that the User Menu access to "Gamma Corrector" is one of the most valuable features. I gather accessing the Service Menu allows for similar adjustments.

I say this for the exact reasons quoted above, being the interaction across the variables manipulated by the other settings.

Tomcat, I'm puzzled by your setting GC to off, when it apparently should improve black detail when interacting with Brightness and Picture. Please comment.

Am I correct in that all broadcasts (analog and digital) are not corrected for gamma (after their transfer to whatever medium they are stored). Are they broadcast at some "standard" gamma (e.g., 1.0)? If so, how does that translate to Sony's off/low/medium/high options?

Anyone had their GWIV calibrated that can lend insight to this?

<< For some XS955 owners, the Gamma setting makes or breaks the black levels and shadow detail in the GWIVs. >>

What settings have people found that improve the black level by using the Gamma setting?

Most likely changing the Gamma messes up the Grayscale. I would think.

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
<< For some XS955 owners, the Gamma setting makes or breaks the black levels and shadow detail in the GWIVs. >>

What settings have people found that improve the black level by using the Gamma setting?

Most likely changing the Gamma messes up the Grayscale. I would think.

-Brian

Well, I'll start since I've asked so many questions. I use Low or Med, but...

I think that only works for me based on my other settings:
Power: Reduced
Brightness 26 (below suggested)
Picture 55
Black Corrector Off
Live Color Med.

I suspect if I went to standard power (132v), and more brightness I would likely have to turn Gamma off, it would simply be too bright.

Originally posted by RAFABAMAD
So, could you tell me what setting GC to high does to your service mode settings? From what I can tell the relevant items in DCP-USER would be:

UGAM
RGAM
GGAM
BGAM

And in DCP-AVP

AGAM

Also, while we're at it. What do the Black Corrector settings do to (also in DCP-USER):

UDCT
DCTR
DCT1
DCT2
UAPD
APDL
APDK
APDD
APDA
APDH
LSCL
UDCI
DCIE
DAUT
DGAI
DLPF
DINF

And in DCP-AVP

ADCI
AAPD
ADCT

I would be eternally grateful if you (or anyone) could help with this.

Thanks
RAF

Could one of you fine upstanding and very helpful XS owners take a few minutes to tell us poor WF owners what these settings are on your sets after you have adjusted the gamma to your liking? It would be greatly appreciated.

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
...
Tomcat, I'm puzzled by your setting GC to off, when it apparently should improve black detail when interacting with Brightness and Picture. Please comment.

Am I correct in that all broadcasts (analog and digital) are not corrected for gamma (after their transfer to whatever medium they are stored). Are they broadcast at some "standard" gamma (e.g., 1.0)? If so, how does that translate to Sony's off/low/medium/high options?

"Gamma corrector" is a misnomer. A better term would be "gamma adjuster". The reason I say that is because gamma should never need "correcting" (except as a single, non-adjustable application relevant to the display), but adjusting it at the set might yield improved PQ regarding black performance.

Every pickup device and display has a gamma transfer characteristic which is simply how linearly luminance output responds to luminance input. Luckily, the natural transfer characteristic for CRTs and camera tubes way back in the day was very close to the natural curve of human vision, so gamma correction was minimal. As new pickup devices and display technologies emerged, some had markedly different characteristics, so gamma transfer curve manipulation became more important. What that means is that video is delivered with a particular transfer characteristic, and your display applies its own manipulation of that to "correct" the transfer characteristic it has naturally, to the same response as a CRT, so that images appear similar to those on CRTs.

But this is not something that changes, and all video is delivered "corrected" to the natural gamma response of a CRT. Other display technologies are different. Every LCD, for example, applies a further gamma correction so that video appears as similar as possible on it to how it appears uncorrected on a CRT. This is normally a fixed correction.

Once you allow the user to manipulate gamma, you are no longer "correcting" it, as much as you are adjusting it to non-normal settings. But that doesn't mean that won't have value. It may. Some of us are convinced of that.

The problem is that it is not easy to do. Sony allows a few variations of the gamma curve, and while they may have value, every time you adjust gamma it interacts severely with pix and brightness, meaning further adjustment is in order and comparison is iffy. Trying to do this on wild moving video is an exercise in futility, as there is no valid comparison technique.

For that reason I have decided to not futz with it until I have controlled images to work with. I just installed the HD Tivo today, and now I am at that point. I will let you know what I find. Again, I am not a dis-believer, just an agnostic. I am so far unconvinced that it may be all that helpful, but I am keeping an open mind. If my experiments yield results, I will become evangelical very quickly, however. :)

Originally posted by TomCat
...But this is not something that changes, and all video is delivered "corrected" to the natural gamma response of a CRT. Other display technologies are different. Every LCD, for example, applies a further gamma correction so that video appears as similar as possible on it to how it appears uncorrected on a CRT. This is normally a fixed correction...

My understanding after some reading (here's where a little knowledge is dangerous) is that Gamma for NSTC is 2.2. Thus I'd expect all or most broadcasts at that standard for interpretation by any device (CRT, LCD, Projector, etc.). I'd like to determine what "off" translate to in the Sony. If the XS is like their projectors, then I believe off is the same as 2.2 (no correction), and low, med and high reduce gamma (and add brightness) along the non-linear curve. This is speculation (and observation), not known fact on my part.

Anyway, I'm thinking that the combination of settings to adjust black is incomplete without manipulating GC. Why? Because even leaving it off has meaning (e.g., 2.2 as the NSTC standard, where off does not equal 0 or nothing).

Originally posted by dmbatch
Could one of you fine upstanding and very helpful XS owners take a few minutes to tell us poor WF owners what these settings are on your sets after you have adjusted the gamma to your liking? It would be greatly appreciated.

Not ignoring this request, but I just don't mess with the SM.

Originally posted by August West
1) I think the picture generally looks quite good but in some fast moving sequences it appears to me that the images get a bit ragged, as if the LCD can't quite keep up with the action. Do you folks who own these notice this effect?...

If the motion is very quick there can be artifacts, but this is not due to the set, it is due to the compression of the source signal. LCD's have a bit of lag, but most formats have lag, including CRTs and DLPs and plasmas. LCDs seem to have the bad rap for this, probably due to historically poor performance in early laptops, where a cursor would "submarine" and disappear if moved too fast. 2005 LCDs are very different.

Gamers (who would know) report that the Sony performs admirably. I agree. I was watching "Lost" this week, and there was a lot of the typical shaky camera close-ups running through the jungle stuff. This should stick out like a sore thumb on a display with lag, yet it did not. And there were no motion artifacts, either. At all. DLPs have motion artifacts just by their nature of time-sharing a lamp per color (which is why you can see rainbows).


...2) How good/bad is the SDE on these latest Sony's? Does anyone think there is a better LCD in this range in that respect?...

SDE on the latest Sonys is comparable to SDE on DLP from last year. In 2003 it was probably a true statement that DLP performed better. From comparing closeups of DLP screenshots to direct viewing of my set, they appear comparable, so I think in 2005 that statement probably no longer applies.

SDE is based on 3 things: pixel fill factor, pixel size, and viewing distance. Moving from 720 to 768 native rez and improving the fill factor makes SDE all but invisible at the recommended viewing distance.


4) Does the native 788p resolution cause any problems converting from 720p and/or 1080i OTA signals? I've always liked the idea of the DLP with the native 720p handling at least the 720p TA boradcasts....

While 788 is mistakenly quoted and may even still be in some literature, 768 is the actual native rez of current Sonys. It all depends on how good the rescaling is. There are some native rez 720 displays that rescale 1080i better than they do 720p natively, strangely enough. The scaler in the Sony does a spectacular job.

768 is a good strategic choice, because the lowest common denominator of 480, 720, 768, and 1080 is the same as it is for 720 and 1080, which means the scaler can do the same job just as easily as it can in a native 720 or a native 1080 set. There is little if any error in the required pixel interpolation, and the perceived rez of 1080i is not compromised, plus the pixels are small enough to be invisible.

Geez, what a thread. Quick question regarding the output of my cable box. Since this set js considered 768 and not 720p, should I output 1080i from my box or 720p? Any ideas on what the 60wf would handle better?

Wolf:
After grayscale calibration, in PRO mode, with power saving to reduced, I measured the gamma of my 55WF to be around 2.47 (desireable is actually a range of 2.25-2.5). The picture looks fantastic.

Dan

Originally posted by DanFrancis
Wolf:
After grayscale calibration, in PRO mode, with power saving to reduced, I measured the gamma of my 55WF to be around 2.47 (desireable is actually a range of 2.25-2.5). The picture looks fantastic.Dan
Dan, may I ask that you provide the other settings (brightness and picture/contrast)? I ask because my understanding is we are addressing "luminance" and they are part of the equation, along with gamma.

Many thanks,
E

Originally posted by TomCat


768 is a good strategic choice, because the lowest common denominator of 480, 720, 768, and 1080 is the same as it is for 720 and 1080, which means the scaler can do the same job just as easily as it can in a native 720 or a native 1080 set.

Excuse the dumb question. But I can't seem to find the answer anywhere but I can guess it and just need verification that I am wrong or correct. I have an XS and I've been reading all the threads about GWIV and the XS model. I was a bit concerned about the native resolution but after all the explanation of why Sony did what they did, I feel better. But my question is this, is my XS displaying interlaced or progressive? My guess would be progressive.

Thanks.
Chuy

Got my refurbished KDF42WE655 on Friday (I posted about it earlier), and so far I am thrilled. I was worried about some of the issues people on here have complained about (SDE, Lag, Black Levels)... and I have to say there are some serious nit-pickers on here. I have 20/15 vision and can't see any SDE from 8 ft... or 5 ft for that matter. Lag has been a non-issue on movies and games. The black level is a "slight" issue, in that you kind of have to compromise between detail and darkness... I had to really tweek the setting to get the PS2 to look good, but I am very happy with the results. DVDs look great on my Sony progressive scan player. SD looks much better than I expected.... HD looks great of course. All in all I am thrilled with this TV and I would suggest it to anyone.

Hi---haven't been here for a LOOOONG time! (Actually, ever since shopping for new TV and using this forum for info.)

I know a lot of people do use this forum while in their decision-making process of which TV to buy, so for any of you reading this thread to see what owners are saying about the GW4's, here's a quick general review of mine...

I have the 55" WF. Had it since Oct. '04. Without getting into any fine details, I can honestly say - and this is always hard for me since I'm so picky - that I really am overall happy with my purchase.

If you're shopping around, comparing LCD to DLP or Sony XS to WF, trust your eyes and don't get too caught up in - or overwhelmed by - some of the little things people might pick on here. Even with just the user-menu controls, you'll get a very pleasing picture with the new Sonys. I just have cable TV Hi def fed from box to TV via medium grade component cables and it's a pretty darn good picture on Hi def material.

I was really caught up in finding that 'perfect' display, going from store to store and spending WAY to much time on this site reading countless posts. I learned a lot about these TV's, but it's nice to just be enjoying my TV now watching movies, concerts, nature shows, etc. in beautiful Hi-def and not reading about all the 'flaws' of all the TV's out there.

I'm sure overall, most of the current generation sets by the diff big name makers are very good displays, but I can only personally give an overall thumbs up to the Sony 55" WF.

DITTO!!!!

Wolf: I figured that I'd have to do that, since noone knows my point of reference. So here goes:

Mode
PRO
Picture: 46
Brightness: 31
Color: 31
Hue: 0
Sharpness: Min
Color Temp: Warm (calibrated)
Noise Reduction: off
Mild Mode: off
Power Saving: reduced
Advanced Video
DRC Mode: Cinemotion
DRC Palette: Custom 3
BN Smoother: OFF
Color Corrector: OFF
That's my DVD input (480i via YPbPr). Some things change from input to input (mostly in advanced when I'm watching HDTV via antenna), and my SD Tivo feed has the hue at G2 (through S-video), but that's about it.

Note: I did make SOME changes in various service menu fields, other than the W/B settings- but those adjustments have been noted ad-nauseum earlier in this thread by other people.

Dan

Originally posted by DanFrancis
....So here goes:

... Note: I did make SOME changes in various service menu fields, other than the W/B settings- but those adjustments have been noted ad-nauseum earlier in this thread by other people.Dan

and Gamma Corrector?

Note: I just opened a new thread under RP Units, since I think this isn't unique to GWIV, and apologize to all if this topic has run too long here.
E

While 788 is mistakenly quoted and may even still be in some literature, 768 is the actual native rez of current Sonys. It all depends on how good the rescaling is.

Interesting. The sources I found first quoted 1386 x 788 as the resolution. After reading your post I did a quick web serach and see references to 1366 x 768. Does anyone know why this is?

I asked Sony Customer Service this question a while ago, and this is the answer that I received:

Response (Brent) - 12/29/2004 02:46 AM
Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding Sony's LCD Televisions.

The KDF-60WF655 Television displays all format types of picture in a resolution of 1386 x 788 pixels (all signals displayed at 788p).

Can someone tell me what models make up the GW4 line? I'll put in question form - if someone can give me brief answers to those questions it would be very helpful.

1. Is GW4 made up of the XS955 and the WF955?

2. Are the WE655 considered GW4 also?

3. There's a WE620 at Costco right now. Is that a GW3 or a GW4?

The reason why I ask is that a family member is looking at a KDF50-WE620 at Costco, but I don't know whether to recommend it to him or not. I myself have the XBR950 and I love it. But those seem to be phased out, so I don't know whether to recommend a new XS or WF or WE for him.

I posted this on another thread, but being that this is the main GW thread, here it goes again. ANyone notice Jaggies (diagonal lines that look stair stipped) on their set? I've now seen them on 2 GW's, my 60xs and my dad's 60wf. Both being fed video from 2 different cable companies.

First i thought it was my cable company's signal via the motorola dct6208, but now i'm beginning to think its the tv after seeing my dad's do the same thing.

This was only on SD (non-hd material btw).

any thoughts/comments?

thx.

Aceman

Originally posted by Aceman
ANyone notice Jaggies (diagonal lines that look stair stipped) on their set? I've now seen them on 2 GW's, my 60xs and my dad's 60wf.
We've had two 55XS955s, and neither have had "jaggies" on our SD cable TV channels, even with the few mediocre channels.

Our cable TV coax is connected directly to the TV's cable/antenna input. If you are using a cable TV box or a cable card, you might want to try and connect the coax directly to the TV and see if the problem persists. Some people have complained about the playback of SD channels via the Motorola STBs, a problem that exists with many different TV models besides the Sony LCDs.

Michael

Originally posted by ArchieGates
Can someone tell me what models make up the GW4 line? I'll put in question form - if someone can give me brief answers to those questions it would be very helpful.

1. Is GW4 made up of the XS955 and the WF955?

2. Are the WE655 considered GW4 also?

3. There's a WE620 at Costco right now. Is that a GW3 or a GW4?

The reason why I ask is that a family member is looking at a KDF50-WE620 at Costco, but I don't know whether to recommend it to him or not. I myself have the XBR950 and I love it. But those seem to be phased out, so I don't know whether to recommend a new XS or WF or WE for him. AFAIK, the WE620 is the same thing as the WE610, which is GWIII. The difference is private labeling for Costco. I saw that set there last week, and it looked nice to everything else they had on display, but since it's essentially a discontinued TV you can do a lot better. Check the 60WF655 on amazon, that should surprise you. I know it's a 60 and you asked about a 50 but check it out.

Originally posted by garymil
Geez, what a thread. Quick question regarding the output of my cable box. Since this set js considered 768 and not 720p, should I output 1080i from my box or 720p? Any ideas on what the 60wf would handle better?

garymil,
I'm no expert, and I have no idea if there is a theoretical best option, but for my 60XS with HD Tivo via HDMI, I like 720p for HD, and 480p for SD. Not sure which cable box you have, but with the HD Tivo you can set it to cycle through 2, 3 or all 4 different settings (480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i) with the up arrow on the remote. To my eye the 720p and 1080i were so close that I just use one (720p) so I only have to cycle through 2.

If you post which model cable box you have, perhaps someone can share their settings. But it really comes down to which looks best to you.

jr

I too would like to know people's thoughts on what setting looks best to them.

I have the motorola 6412 dual tuner DVR box. It is right now set at 1080i which is the way the COmcast tech guy initially put it. I havent had a lot of chance to play around with the settings, so i would like to hear what others see as the "best option." This is on a 55wf.

thanks.

I have a sony 55wf655 series and absolutly love this machine. DVD's look great, Standard TV looks awsome too. But my third use for the tv is my x box. I have it connected with monster component cables and it looks great although on any game ive tried I get sparadic white dots on the screen. they shift position as the games graphics shift. They kinda look lke "stars in the sky" just on my screen. Not sure what this is or if there is a way to prevent this? anyone please shead me some light on this. Again I only see these dots while im on x-box. dvd and tv look great (i dont have hdtv set up yet but soon. thanks all

Originally posted by Syndral2000
I have a sony 55wf655 series and absolutly love this machine. DVD's look great, Standard TV looks awsome too. But my third use for the tv is my x box. I have it connected with monster component cables and it looks great although on any game ive tried I get sparadic white dots on the screen. they shift position as the games graphics shift. They kinda look lke "stars in the sky" just on my screen. Not sure what this is or if there is a way to prevent this? anyone please shead me some light on this. Again I only see these dots while im on x-box. dvd and tv look great (i dont have hdtv set up yet but soon. thanks all

Sorry if you've already tried this, but have you switched inputs on the Xbox? Also, does it glimmer in all resolutions 480i, 480p, 720p?

Originally posted by Buck's SCSW
AFAIK, the WE620 is the same thing as the WE610, which is GWIII. The difference is private labeling for Costco.
You can find the WE620 model on Sony's Canadian web site:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=173764&navigationPath=32050n45260

Michael

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
You can find the WE620 model on Sony's Canadian web site:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=173764&navigationPath=32050n45260

Michael Yep. From the description: Simply press POWER... Brilliant images and astounding sound greet you the moment you turn on Sony’s KF-50WE610 50" Grand WEGA® LCD Rear Projection TV.

I have Cablevision's SA 8300 DVR box. Right now the box is set to all signal types, 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i widescreen and regular modes via the setup menu, but I'm limiting the output to 720p for all signals. I do have the option to have the box output the incoming signal type but some of the HD channels were coming in as 480i. I've experimented with 720p and 1080i and have not seen a difference in PQ.

Also, on a unrelated note, I do love the TV, but I'm a little concerned about the 1080p sets that are coming out. Is the picture that much better then a 720p set? After watching some of the HD programming I can't understand how it can get better. But I'm wondering if I'm going to regret not waiting once I see the 1080P PQ for myself.

question....

I was thinking about getting an HDMI cable for my we655... as my cable box supports it and I need the component space for the PS2...

what I want to know is, will it improve the pq at all over component? and also, do I really need to spend $100, or can I grab a generic gold-plated cable for $25 w/o loosing any pq? Lasty... any specific cable brand I should get?

I have a $8 DVI -> HDMI cable from monoprice.com for my dual tuner motorola cable box and have been satisfied. I can't say there's a marginal picture quality improvement over the component jacks, but it's certainly not any worse. Colors seem a bit more vibrant, but maybe that's just me.

and like you mlodgek, i also needed the component input for my PS2, which necessitated switching the cable box to dvi.

Hey chaotix382:

Would there be that much diiference between an S video cable and component cable? I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that only the X-box displayed games in high definition.

"Would there be that much diiference between an S video cable and component cable? I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that only the X-box displayed games in high definition"

Actualy, at first I had my PS2 hooked up via s-video, and I was having a hard time tweeking it to where I wanted. I switched to component and noticed a drastic difference (both cables were official sony's), and the game was not progressive or 16:9... the image was much brighter and easier to tweek. I had the gamma on the game maxed with s-video, but I was able to bring it down to just above nomal with the component.

I have tried a few progressive 16:9 games, but I have not been impressed so far... the frame rates drop, and I get the feeling most widescreen games were designed in 4:3 and just cropped into 16:9... it just doesn't feel right.

I'm on week three with my 50WE655, and still thrilled with the TV. I have some thoughts/questions that some of you may have answers to or just find amusing (my wife seems to think so)...

1. Component vs HDMI: I spent a better part of a couple of hours comparing PQ from my HD box (SciAtl 3250HD from TimeWarner) to the TV via component vs. HDMI. PQ of HD programming (INHD, HDnet, DiscoveryHD) was slightly better with the component cables. Both component and HDMI cables were Monster.

2. DVD Players - Up-conversion: I purchased two "up-conversion" DVD players (Samsung HD-841 and a Toshiba SD-5970) and compared them with my plain progressive Sony NS575P. (I also connected the up-conversion players via component, then HDMI, and compared PQ.) In the end, while the picture from the Toshiba was superior to that of the Samsung, the Toshiba wasn't much better than the Sony. (The Samsung PQ was very disappointing.) I returned the Samsung and Toshiba and will hold onto the Sony until I figure this out.

3. The owners of our local FOX affiliate have yet to sign an agreement with TimeWarner. I finally hooked up a cheap pair of rabbit ears so that we could watch Arrested Development last evening (only show on FOX we watch, outside of NFL). I was impressed with the PQ of the show.

That's it for now.

Jeff

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
My understanding after some reading (here's where a little knowledge is dangerous) is that Gamma for NSTC is 2.2. Thus I'd expect all or most broadcasts at that standard for interpretation by any device (CRT, LCD, Projector, etc.). I'd like to determine what "off" translate to in the Sony. If the XS is like their projectors, then I believe off is the same as 2.2 (no correction), and low, med and high reduce gamma (and add brightness) along the non-linear curve. This is speculation (and observation), not known fact on my part.

Anyway, I'm thinking that the combination of settings to adjust black is incomplete without manipulating GC. Why? Because even leaving it off has meaning (e.g., 2.2 as the NSTC standard, where off does not equal 0 or nothing).

I have to agree. Back when the gamma of pickup tubes was very close to both that of CRTs and human vision, gamma correction was rare in displays, but always used (minimally) in cameras. Today, all displays have some gamma correction. CRTs are naturally close, so the correction is again minimal, but LCDs and other displays are so inherently different in gamma response that heavy gamma correction is normal, and "off" is still heavily gamma corrected, probably to something close to 2.2. When the ATSC addressed gamma for DT they basically left it the same as NTSC.

BTW, my experimentation is over, and I am now a complete gamma "corrector" convert. Not quite evangelical, as I wildly speculated, but I have definitely drunk the kool-aid. In fact, I'm now ready to recommend that buying a set without this feature is a huge mistake. I thought this set looked good before adjusting gamma. Now, with it set to its highest setting, it just is astonishing. I almost believed I could reach out and touch the "Desperate Housewives" last night. Everything is definitely improved. Maybe not by strict Avia/DVE/Video Essential standards, but still much more pleasing to the eye, just the same. I'm all in.

I expected possible minimal black detail performance. I'm not sure that even happened (I had no issue with the black performance) but what I most definitely got instead was increased luminance of the medium gray scale steps, which is I guess what I should have expected, knowing how gamma works.

That doesn't really sound so much like an improvement, but it is a very dramatic improvement indeed. Not only does everything just look "better" but I no longer feel like I am working within a very narrow window between absolute white and absolute black, which was my chief complaint about LCDRP until now. While it may not address or even significantly change black performance per se, increasing gamma (and boosting the midrange tones in the process) seems to completely offset any perception of narrow or weak performance in rendering black detail on an LCDRP. It is kind of like how upcompressing audio (raising the lower levels without raising the peaks) can make audio to be perceived as louder, without actually ever making the peaks higher...raising the luminance of the midtones seems to make everything more visible and real without actually raising brightness.

Without gamma correction (at least Sony's take on it) I ranked this set at a 9.5, with 0 being miserable and 10 being perfect. Now it's a perfect 10.

Originally posted by garymil
Geez, what a thread. Quick question regarding the output of my cable box. Since this set js considered 768 and not 720p, should I output 1080i from my box or 720p? Any ideas on what the 60wf would handle better?

Check this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=224364

The HD Tivo has the ability to format at 1080i, 720p, 480p, or 480i to accomodate any display that might be expecting a particular format, so us 768-set owners who have the HR10 Tivo face the same issue as you.

Try both, use what works best. I settled on 720.

Originally posted by chuy
...my question is this, is my XS displaying interlaced or progressive? My guess would be progressive.

Thanks.
Chuy

You are correct, sir. All non-CRT displays always display progressively. CRTs can do either, although most are limited to interlaced.

Originally posted by August West
Interesting. The sources I found first quoted 1386 x 788 as the resolution. After reading your post I did a quick web serach and see references to 1366 x 768. Does anyone know why this is?

Simple. 1386 x 788 was a typo. If you do the math, 1366 x 768 results in a (almost perfectly) square pixel at 16:9. 1386 x 788 does not. The ATSC recommended against non-square pixels in DT implemementation...something about a problem with maintaining compatibility on computer displays. Also, 788 scaled to 1080/480/720 would require a much smaller lowest common denominator than 768 (which has the same lcd as 1080/480/720) which would make the scaler algorithm much more complex and error-prone than 768.

Originally posted by Aceman
...ANyone notice Jaggies (diagonal lines that look stair stipped) on their set? I've now seen them on 2 GW's...This was only on SD (non-hd material btw).

any thoughts/comments?


Even 1080 will show some jaggies on diagonal lines, no matter which set. 480 on a 60" screen will definitely have jaggies, even from 12 ft. away.

There are things that can minimize them somewhat, however. In Pro mode, under advanced video, set to "high density", which I find seems to minimize the issue, especially on freeze frames. That will only affect SD. I also find that if you have a STB or HD Tivo, set the output formatting to 720, which has a bit fewer jaggies for HD resolution than 1080 formatting (at least on the GW).

Originally posted by garymil
...I'm a little concerned about the 1080p sets that are coming out. Is the picture that much better then a 720p set? After watching some of the HD programming I can't understand how it can get better. But I'm wondering if I'm going to regret not waiting once I see the 1080P PQ for myself.

My best guess would be that a native 1080p display would have little advantage over the current 768 sets. I can see two possible scenarios where they might have a bit more going for them, but I still think 1080p is mostly a marketing hype opportunity rather than a real advance in display technology.

1. If you plan to sit closer than the recommended distance (3.3 picture heights...about 7.8 ft. for a 60" display) you may have a bit less perception of SDE. Once you move 3.3 pix heights away, SDE on a 768-rez set is all but invisible, so smaller pixels won't make any difference. If you sit more than 11 ft. away, your eyes can't resolve all of the detail in a 720p image, so a 1080p image would be a waste of resolution at that distance, even if there truly were more resolution, and there may not be.

2. Graphics, such as titles, supers, credits, etc. can be sharper on a 1080p display IF they originate from a 1080p source. Currently, there is no 1080p source, and it is likely there never will be at the consumer level as far as OTA HD is concerned. 1080p is reserved for acquisition. Nothing is ditributed at 1080p and it is doubful that anything ever will be, other than the new HD formats for DVD. Even then, all video originally acquired at 1080p would have to be distributed at 1080p.

And that might not matter. 1080p video OTHER THAN graphics, which includes all raster-scanned camera images (virtually all movies and TV shows) has a perceived vertical resolution of at best, 756 lines, due to kell factor. Since kell only applies to the aquisition and is not cumulative unless you display on an analog CRT, 720p derived from 1080p images still has at best, 720 perceived lines of resolution. Typically, even 1080p video has a perceived rez of about 700 lines. That's for static and moving images (moving video at 1080i is down around 500 lines due to interlace factor and interline flicker, while 720p remains at about 700).

The horizontal rez of 1080p is a bit greater than 720p, but even digital cinema is shown at a horizontal rez equivalent to 720p, and no one ever complained that the rez should be higher. Folks sit closer than 3 pix heights in such theaters, too.

And the scaler in the Sony is flawless. Bottom line, 768p can fully resolve pretty much anything thrown at it, and the advantages of a 1080p display, if there truly are any, would be questionable at best.

Well, I (finally) have had some time to just sit back and enjoy my 55WF. It's been very enjoyable. One thing (yes there is ALWAYS one thing) has been happening. The display information (Input, picture,lamp mode, etc..) shows up on the screen, at random times. Is this a glitch particular to all GWIV's? Or, is it Sony's way of letting us know that nothing is perfect?

Originally posted by TomCat
I expected possible minimal black detail performance. I'm not sure that even happened (I had no issue with the black performance) but what I most definitely got instead was increased luminance of the medium gray scale steps, which is I guess what I should have expected, knowing how gamma works.


TomCat

Would you be kind enough to post the corresponding changes to the relevant service menu values following your gamma adjustments?

What's wrong with my wiring ????

I have a 55WF655. I have RCA cables connected to the digital audio out on the back of the TV. I then connected the cables to the input of my AV receiver. I turned speakers OFF in my menu settings. I am NOT getting any sound through my receiver. Anyone have any suggestions ??

dre

Originally posted by dre
What's wrong with my wiring ????

I have a 55WF655. I have RCA cables connected to the digital audio out on the back of the TV. I then connected the cables to the input of my AV receiver. I turned speakers OFF in my menu settings. I am NOT getting any sound through my receiver. Anyone have any suggestions ??

dre

Hmm, I assume you checked all the obvious things, so there aren't a whole lot of things it could be other than a receiver problem or a television problem. Have you tried more than one inputs on your receiver -- that is, an input you know works by connecting some other device? Have you checked your mute buttons on the tv and the receiver? Have you tried switching between fixed and variable output on the television to see if that makes a difference?

There is one part of your post that doesn't make sense, though. You say you have "rca cables" connected to the "digital audio out" of your tv, which must be a mistake. My understanding of this tv is that the only digital audio out requires an optical cable. Did you mean to say that you have rca cables connected to the analog audio out?

Other than all that, maybe it's a compatibility problem. Perhaps if you are feeding the television a 5.1 signal (e.g., OTA digital) the tv cannot convert that to a stereo signal to send out on the analog outputs. That would be weird if it could not do that, but maybe that's the next thing to inquire about. Have you tried to see if it works with just a standard old stereo audio signal (e.g., analog over the air)?

Does your A/V receiver require that you set the input signal? The rca cable audio out on the tv is analog, not digital. Digital is only through the optical port, and then only when on a digital tv channel. Is your receiver set for analog, or digital. Some receivers automatically sense and set accordingly. Others do not. Just a thought.
You indicate that you set the audio menu to Speaker Off. Did you set the audio menu to Fixed or Variable. If variable, then your tv volume control and the receiver's volume control are both in play. Perhaps the tv volume control is so low that the receiver's volume control has nothing to work with. Again, just a thought.
You know that the cables are good, right.
Joe

TomCat,

Are the gamma changes your are making resulting in a more accurate picuture confirmed by measurements or are they just more pleasing to the eye?

-Brian

Thanks for the suggestions.....yes, I meant analog audio out via RCA cables. I will try some of the things ya'll said !!

Originally posted by DanFrancis
Wolf: I figured that I'd have to do that, since noone knows my point of reference. So here goes:

Mode
PRO
Picture: 46
Brightness: 31
Color: 31
Hue: 0
Sharpness: Min
Color Temp: Warm (calibrated)
Noise Reduction: off
Mild Mode: off
............ Dan

Whenever people list their adjusted settings, they designate which Mode they are in (Pro in this case). My question is, are there some "hidden" differences between the Modes? If I took the above settings and applied them to say both the PRO and VIVID modes, would the resulting picture in each mode look the same? My assumption has been that the differences between the modes is limited to only the default levels for the adjustable parameters. Are there nonadjustable differences for Vivd vs Pro vs Standard Modes?

Originally posted by dre
What's wrong with my wiring ????

I have a 55WF655. I have RCA cables connected to the digital audio out on the back of the TV. I then connected the cables to the input of my AV receiver. I turned speakers OFF in my menu settings. I am NOT getting any sound through my receiver. Anyone have any suggestions ??

dre

dre,
Before you turn the speakers off, have some volume level (not "0"). I think a setting of "0" mutes the outputs. I tried mine, if I set the volume level at "3", then turned the speakers off, I did have sound through my external preamp. If I set the speaker volume at "0", then turned off the speakers, I couldn't hear anything from my external system.

Note: I have the speaker output set to "fixed".

I couldn't find a thread on this, so I will post a question to owners of a rear LCD set. I am currently in the market for a 60" rear projection TV and have been looking at the Mit 62725 DLP as well as the SONY 60XS. I am torn between them PQ wise. Not sure which one to go with. Anyone have any advise on the two types...LCD rear vs. DLP rear and these two tv's?

Question for those of you that are in the know. Is there a way to manually select sub-channels and keep them in the TV memory? My cable company broadcasts VOD programs on some sub-channels that the TV will pick up on initial channel search, however, it only picks up the ones that have programs playing on them. If you try to add digital channels, it then erases the ones in memory that don't have anything playing on them. I have gone into the show/hide menu, but it doesn't list all the sub-channels. It does list a select bunch if there were things playing on them and you can choose to show or hide them. I would like to use the up and down button to scan the channels to see if anything is playing on them, but as it is now I have to manually punch the numbers in on many of the channels. Yes, I'm aware this is a "cheat" as far as receiving the channels goes, but hey, scramble them if you don't want me to watch.

Originally posted by tsaf
I couldn't find a thread on this, so I will post a question to owners of a rear LCD set. I am currently in the market for a 60" rear projection TV and have been looking at the Mit 62725 DLP as well as the SONY 60XS. I am torn between them PQ wise. Not sure which one to go with. Anyone have any advise on the two types...LCD rear vs. DLP rear and these two tv's?
This topic has been bludgeoned to death on this forum, so there should be plenty of threads to search on. Use the Search function at the top of the page, not at the top of the RPTV forum listing. Also, try the following link as a starting point, and search for the desired topic:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=481634

Michael

Thanks to all in these forums for assisting me in deciding which TV to buy. Went with the KDF-55WF655 (ABT Electronics) and have had it for almost a month.

Wanted to inquire about something that I don't believe is either SDE or SSE. I've seen a couple mentions about it though. At viewing distances of 12 feet or less, I see what I can best describe as a crystalline effect across very bright areas of the picture. My understanding is this is an artifact of the anti-glare screen/coating. I can best describe it as looking like a layer of clear sand spread across the screen that stays stationary as images move underneath it.

This is very noticable to me in bright scenes, though I've become more acclimated to it over the last 3 weeks. It seems more prominent in crummy SD programming than in decent HD. But I can almost always see it and it makes it seem like there's noise in the picture or... grime on the screen.

Just looking for comments, I think the effect could very well be amplified by my (currently) very crappy source- which is an SD Tivo coming in via RF (shudder.. waiting to have another coax pulled thru the wall.. any way to combine the 2 sat feeds into one coax? but I digress). It is a less prominent effect in DVD's, and even less so in decent OTA HD. Just wondering if everybody sees it...

Would also like to note that applying some of the sm tweaks has, to my eyes, dramatically improved the picture quality in Pro mode. Thanks to all who have provided information.

Originally posted by jwingstrom
Thanks to all in these forums for assisting me in deciding which TV to buy. Went with the KDF-55WF655 (ABT Electronics) and have had it for almost a month.

Wanted to inquire about something that I don't believe is either SDE or SSE. I've seen a couple mentions about it though. At viewing distances of 12 feet or less, I see what I can best describe as a crystalline effect across very bright areas of the picture. My understanding is this is an artifact of the anti-glare screen/coating. I can best describe it as looking like a layer of clear sand spread across the screen that stays stationary as images move underneath it.

This is very noticable to me in bright scenes, though I've become more acclimated to it over the last 3 weeks. It seems more prominent in crummy SD programming than in decent HD. But I can almost always see it and it makes it seem like there's noise in the picture or... grime on the screen.

Just looking for comments, I think the effect could very well be amplified by my (currently) very crappy source- which is an SD Tivo coming in via RF (shudder.. waiting to have another coax pulled thru the wall.. any way to combine the 2 sat feeds into one coax? but I digress). It is a less prominent effect in DVD's, and even less so in decent OTA HD. Just wondering if everybody sees it...

Would also like to note that applying some of the sm tweaks has, to my eyes, dramatically improved the picture quality in Pro mode. Thanks to all who have provided information. I see the same thing and it's SSE. There's nothing you can do about it I don't think.

Originally posted by TomCat
....probably to something close to 2.2. When the ATSC addressed gamma for DT they basically left it the same as NTSC.

BTW, my experimentation is over, and I am now a complete gamma "corrector" convert. .... I'm all in.

.... got instead was increased luminance of the medium gray scale steps, which is I guess what I should have expected, knowing how gamma works.

That doesn't really sound so much like an improvement, but it is a very dramatic improvement indeed. ...raising the luminance of the midtones seems to make everything more visible and real without actually raising brightness.
1. Any idea how we can determine what the GC levels in the User Menu equate to as actual Gamma Corrector exponentials?
2. Glad to hear it, and not surprised.
3. Yep, its addressing luminance as the core of this tweak.
4. Agree, more visibility. I was amazed when watching the Grammys that so much Black attire had additional black pinstripes, or designs, or black shirts and ties with black suit jackets - all visible and distinguishable in HD.

IMHO, GC is a tweak that MUST be included among those addressing the viewing experience. Thats where I started this search, and I'm VERY pleased it has led to such improved results. Great thats its available!

I just got a 60" XS955
I was inquiring about hooking my DVD player up HDMI vs. COMPONENT on another thread and I got this post:

On the GWIV's, the HDMI it NOT a true digital connection from player to display. It does, in fact, revert to analog in the chain and eventually back to digital for displaying. You XS also scales ALL signals to its native res(788P) and double scaling is not optimal for PQ. The Sonys have nice scalers.


Is this true?
1. Is the HDMI not a true digital signal ?

I have a Denon 1805 480p DVD player with component only.

I was thinking about getting a new DVD with HDMI just to see if it would be better for DVDs

2. Is a component or HDMI better for a 60" XS ?

PS I've had this tv for 2 weeks and it smokes! I love this forum ...THANKS in advance

Originally posted by Bghead8che
TomCat,

Are the gamma changes your are making resulting in a more accurate picuture confirmed by measurements or are they just more pleasing to the eye?

-Brian

Originally posted by islandview
...Would you be kind enough to post the corresponding changes to the relevant service menu values following your gamma adjustments?

Well, first of all, they are definitely non-standard adjustments. If you are calibrating to a standard, then gamma adjustment should not be necessary and should not be done. But since for me the end goal is to get the PQ to be more pleasing to the eye, standards be damned.

Calibration to standards is chiefly valuable to get things out of the showroom floor mode, which is distorted to make the set compete better next to other sets, and back into what actually is a good starting point for the living room. Ironically, what's best for the living room looks shabby by comparison on the showroom floor, for a number of reasons.

So while calibration has value, as an end to itself it has limitations. I think it's a fool's errand to get caught up in the numbers. Calibration by eye works as well or better than calibration by standard, IF you know what to look for. If you have doubts that you do, calibrate to a standard first, and then eyeball it from there. Either way, we'll all probably end up in pretty much the same place.

The embarrasing thing is that when I first got the set gamma seemed a bit overwhelming in the face of all of the other inscrutable tweaks available, and I just decided to forego that until I knew the set better and had controlled images to work with (which took a lot longer than I planned).

But now, after returning to it, it seems that the interaction of gamma with brightness and picture isn't near as tricky as it seemed at first. Since what you are adjusting is the middle of the transfer curve, the ends of the curve, which represent absolute white and absolute black, never actually change. There is an apparent major shift in brightness and picture, but that is just first perception.

What that ends up meaning is that there really isn't any significant change to brightness and picture needed when adjusting gamma. I have kind of reversed position on this, I know, and I apologize if my earlier statements were misleading. I thought I knew better, but I didn't. Our learning curves are a work in progress, obviously. The bottom line is that the only concurrent changes to picture and brightness needed when adjusting gamma are minor tweaks, easily done by eye.

Originally posted by sillycyberfunguy
I just got a 60" XS955
I was inquiring about hooking my DVD player up HDMI vs. COMPONENT on another thread and I got this post:

On the GWIV's, the HDMI it NOT a true digital connection from player to display. It does, in fact, revert to analog in the chain and eventually back to digital for displaying. You XS also scales ALL signals to its native res(788P) and double scaling is not optimal for PQ. The Sonys have nice scalers.


Is this true?
1. Is the HDMI not a true digital signal ?

...

2. Is a component or HDMI better for a 60" XS ?

It is indeed true digital. Otherwise it could not carry HTCP info, which it does.

Digital signals inside a GW are indeed converted to analog, in fact it is the very first thing that happens to HDMI signals. Those signals and the component signals are then immediately ported into an analog switcher. All HD processing from that point on keeps the signals in the analog domain. Processing and control is done digitally, but digital processing does not mean signals need to be digital, and they aren't.

SD signals (ONLY SD signals) are later converted to digital for DRC processing and later back to analog. While all (then analog) signals are eventually raster-scanned onto the three LCDs and then optically projected onto the screen using further digital processing, once again the signals remain in the analog domain during this process. The display proper is an analog device. There is no such thing as a "digital" display referring to the signals themselves that are displayed. Your eyes are also analog devices, and can only accept an analog signal (projected or reflected light).

Is component better? Maybe, maybe not. Component can't carry HTCP, but if it's not needed, it doesn't matter. Knowing that HDMI is immediately converted to analog means the only difference between the two is that one is converted externally and the other is converted internally, meaning that if the quality of the conversion is the same, the outcome should also be the same. Neither is inherently superior, although some report more vibrant color with component.

Hi:
Just took ownership of the 55wf655 and a Sony DAV FR1 Dream System. So far so good, but I was wondering if anyone else has this setup and can give me some helpful tips about settings and connections to get the best PQ in HD, DVD and SD.

Thanks.

Is this what Joe Kane is referring to as "component as a afterthought" ??

http://www.videoessentials.com/componentvideo.php

I apologize in advance for what might seem an overly simplistic question/post. I learned a lot here in researching my TV purchase and now I'm about at the end of my rope for somewhat unrelated reasons.

I recently undertook an editing project for my son's basketball team using a computer program called Pinnacle Studio 9. For reasons too complicated - and unrelated - to go into, I'm finding it impossible to render the final project to DVD and I'm hoping I can simply hook up the computer to the Sony KDF-50WF655 I recently purchased, in order to show the video this weekend (and, like Scarlett O'Hara, put off my real problems until another day).
I recall when cruising this forum when deciding upon the set I purchased that the computer hookup thing was easily done, but a quick glance through the paper manual reveals no instructions.
Can I do this (audio and video)? Any hints/help would be greatly appreciated.

"easily done"
does your computer have a s video out ? This would be easiest.
next DVI out to HDMI in
or you will need a trans-coder VGA to component input

http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/9a60.asp

Thanks - I assume hooking up with s-video (which I'm not sure I have) will not handle sound. Do I just find the audio output on the computer and hook to input on the appropriate channel on the TV?

yes that will work.

I'm not saying this is a flaw, but I have just observed that if you crank Picture above 52 with Brightness at 34 (and Power Saver on with gamma maxed out), assuming the content has 100% white, IT WILL CRUSH. There is still plenty of luminance headroom and this is not a compromise in any way of PQ (unless you allow the crush), but we should beware that there is a fixed limitation, and adjust accordingly.

I"ve had my 55"er for about 2.5 months, and really like it. Only issues:

1) Looking at anything with a lot of white (snow, for example) there's a lot of frenzied "activity" as the pixels/lights are drawn/turned on/off.

2) Looking at smaller objects in the background (lake, trees, greenery) there again is a lot of annoying "activity" that doesn't seem to dominate the foreground/in-focus video.

3) Display info randomly appears (usually once during a DVD) for no apparent reason.

Aside from those, this set was a great semi-long-term investment.

I know ive been posting, but im getting desperate. On my 55wf655 I can see dvds clear as day and req tv. but when playing my x box with a component monster cable I get these random white dots that form on the screen. they look like bright pixels. what are these and is there anything I can do to remove them? Please help.

I couldn't find a thread on this, so I will post a question to owners of a rear LCD set. I am currently in the market for a 60" rear projection TV and have been looking at the Mit 62725 DLP as well as the SONY 60XS. I am torn between them PQ wise. Not sure which one to go with. Anyone have any advise on the two types...LCD rear vs. DLP rear and these two tv's?

I would browse this thread and the following for Mitsu xx725 DLPs. I think the actual "DLP vs LCD" threads are less useful as people tend to have agendas. I think you get more "truth" in the owner's threads.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=444566

1) Looking at anything with a lot of white (snow, for example) there's a lot of frenzied "activity" as the pixels/lights are drawn/turned on/off.

There have been several posts on this issue. Have the people who see this set up their brightness/contrast with DVE and/or Avia? Also, is this independant of the source? For example, perhaps the settings on the DVD player are not proper to pass WTW?

Maybe this is a well known issue with LCDs and the above will not help, but it the first thing I would try.

Originally posted by TomCat
I'm not saying this is a flaw, but I have just observed that if you crank Picture above 52 with Brightness at 34 (and Power Saver on with gamma maxed out), assuming the content has 100% white, IT WILL CRUSH. There is still plenty of luminance headroom and this is not a compromise in any way of PQ (unless you allow the crush), but we should beware that there is a fixed limitation, and adjust accordingly.

Tried these settings to see what ya mean. Would have to put shades on to watch something that bright, even if content is not 100% white.

I'm sure you're not using at those settings, and these were experimental. Thanks for the input.

I'm wondering what DVD players all of you GWIV owners are using with your sets... Are you experiencing Macroblocking if you are using the Faroujda chip?

Personally, we're looking to match the Sony 42WE655 with a good DVD player for under $500. Being we only have 1 HDMI the DVD player will most likely be connected via component.

Thanks!

Can anyone tell me what the diffences are between the XS and WF? Is it just a matter of inputs or is there a better pq with the XS? What are the pros and cons of these TV's?

Originally posted by tsaf
Can anyone tell me what the diffences are between the XS and WF? Is it just a matter of inputs or is there a better pq with the XS? What are the pros and cons of these TV's?

The XS has:

1 additional HDMI input
An improved speaker system
Advanced picture settings in the user menu

Originally posted by tsaf
Can anyone tell me what the diffences are between the XS and WF? Is it just a matter of inputs or is there a better pq with the XS? What are the pros and cons of these TV's? A search of "XS and WF" lists 57 (now 58) different posts. For future reference.

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
Tried these settings to see what ya mean. Would have to put shades on to watch something that bright, even if content is not 100% white.

I'm sure you're not using at those settings, and these were experimental. Thanks for the input.

Yes. Although I stated it clumsily, my intent was more to illustrate that the GW has a boatload of headroom, and not that it has any problem. But I'm wearing three coats of SPF-50, just in case. :D

What's the major difference between the 2?

I saw the 50WE620 at Costco for a good price today. It had a built-in HD tuner too. The 50WE655 has a built-in tuner correct? The guys at CC told me it doesn't.

Thanks!

Do a search on "50WE620" and get the lowdown on that one. WE655 does have a built-in tuner.

Originally posted by cedosada
I saw the 50WE620 at Costco for a good price today. It had a built-in HD tuner too. The 50WE655 has a built-in tuner correct? The guys at CC told me it doesn't.
The 50WE655 has the built-in HD tuner, but I don't think that the 50WE620 does. You might want to check out the link below for more information:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=173764&navigationPath=32050n45260

Michael

Amazon has sweet prices right now. The 60WF655 should blow your mind.

How do people generally feel about buying online vs. a local store for a set this large?

Originally posted by andy.e
How do people generally feel about buying online vs. a local store for a set this large?
Usually driven by your own post-purchase behavior IF a problem occurs. Do you prefer to drive down, talk to 'em or are you comfortable calling (holding), e-mailing (back in 24 hours), etc.

In either event, chechk their Rep (somehow, here?).

I have a cablevision motorola HD set top box and am connecting via component i/p to my KDF55WF655.

Any help with the following two problems would be appreciated:

1) If my DVD player is connected via the other component i/p why can I not see it as the other video source in PIP mode?

2) With Closed captioning turned ON in the Motorola set top box, I still do not see the captions for any channel on the TV (with the Closed Caption setting set to Auto I think on the TV). Anybody had this problem before?

Thanks in advance for your answers!!

Originally posted by blueshark
1) If my DVD player is connected via the other component i/p why can I not see it as the other video source in PIP mode?
It's because the Sonys, along with most HDTVs today, do not allow more than one HD source (via HD tuner, component or HDMI inputs) to be displayed in the PIP mode, and that HD source must be displayed in the main (left) window.

Michael

Anybody successfully using a cablecard from Insight in their Sony?

I am in Illinois and when called Insight about cablecards when originally looking at the Sony 42WE655, the girl asked what brand TV I was looking at. I told her and she said, "yes, we have cablecards for that and they are $2 /mo".

So now I have the TV set and call Insight this morning to arrang an install only to be told their cable cards DONT work with ANY Sony TV. Yet she could not tell me any other TV brands that did or did not work with their cablecards. My only option now, according to her, is to pay $10 /mo for another cable box - which is one of the things I wanted to avoid and one of the reasons I got the Sony wth a built in tuner and card slot.

With my DVD player and Xbox hooked up I don't even have enough inputs left on the TV for a HD set top box.

Originally posted by lnin0
With my DVD player and Xbox hooked up I don't even have enough inputs left on the TV for a HD set top box.
This addresses one of my few complaints about the Sony WF655/XS955 TVs, that they only have two component video inputs (which I am assuming that your DVD player and XBox are using). I wished Sony had sacrificed one of the four S-Video/composite inputs for a third component video input.

One thing you might want to check is whether the HD STB has a DVI or HDMI output if you end up going that route.

Michael

I'm wondering what DVD players all of you GWIV owners are using with your sets... Are you experiencing Macroblocking if you are using the Faroujda chip?

I'm curious about this myself. I have a Panasonic S97 with that chip but I have a DLP. I see no macroblocking at all. I'm lurking this thread as the rainbows are bothering me and I may swap for an LCD. It appears to me that the display device has something to do with macroblocking and at least my DLP is OK with it.

Anybody with a Panny S97 or other Faroujda chip DVD player? Is macroblocking visible?

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
This addresses one of my few complaints about the Sony WF655/XS955 TVs, that they only have two component video inputs (which I am assuming that your DVD player and XBox are using). I wished Sony had sacrificed one of the four S-Video/composite inputs for a third component video input.

One thing you might want to check is whether the HD STB has a DVI or HDMI output if you end up going that route.

Michael Yes, I believe there is a DVI on my current DVR STB but I really wanted to reserve the HDMI port on the TV for my PC. The person I spoke to on the phone at Insight didn't know what DVI or HDMI was.

I did just call Insight again and was told they had 3 toshibas and 1 sony model listed that did not work and that it was not 'every' sony tv as far as this operator could tell. The Sony model listed was the KDF55XS955 :( (probably not a stones throw from the KDF-42WE655)

So I am going to go ahead and have them come out next week with a cablecard and give it a try. I will not be happy if it doesn't work but I at least want to see it tried. If not they are brining a box as backup....but I don't know I want to give Insight any more than the $100+ a month Im already dishing out to them for cable and bb.

Yes, I don't get what Sony, or any of these manufacurers for that matter, are doing selling HD tvs with a **** pile of old composit and s-vid connections on them and a couple of digital ports.

Originally posted by lnin0
With my DVD player and Xbox hooked up I don't even have enough inputs left on the TV for a HD set top box.

How do you think those of us with the XBox, Gamecube, *AND* Playstation2 feel when all have component cables? Toss in a DVD player and HD cable box, and I have 5 component sources.

Fortunately there was a simple solution for me:

Pelican System Selector (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=78-104-202&depa=0)

I have my consoles hooked up to this as well as the cable set top box. I have the switch box hooked up to my receiver (which accepts two component inputs). The DVD player is connected directly to the receiver.

The only complaint about the Pelican switch box is that you cannot control it using IR. Other than that, it's fantastic. Even switches optical audio and ethernet!

Thanks for the info drwtsn32. Looks like I'll be saving up for one more thing if this cable card doesn't work.

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
It's because the Sonys, along with most HDTVs today, do not allow more than one HD source (via HD tuner, component or HDMI inputs) to be displayed in the PIP mode, and that HD source must be displayed in the main (left) window.

Michael

Just chatted with the Sony online support person and you are right, that is the problem. Is there any technical reason for them to do this?

Is there a way for the picture mode settings (FULL, WIDE etc.) to "stick" with a video input? For example, the TV always switches back to FULL mode with my cable input (component) even though it was set to WIDE when the TV was turned off :(

Originally posted by blueshark
Is there a way for the picture mode settings (FULL, WIDE etc.) to "stick" with a video input? For example, the TV always switches back to FULL mode with my cable input (component) even though it was set to WIDE when the TV was turned off :(
In the TV input video settings, either set the 4:3 Default option to Off or to your desired preference (Full, Wide, etc.). Setting the 4:3 Default option to Off uses the current setting of the picture mode.

Michael

Originally posted by lnin0
Thanks for the info drwtsn32. Looks like I'll be saving up for one more thing if this cable card doesn't work.
Keep it in mind if you ever get other consoles, too. :) BTW, you can buy this thing at stores like EB Games, Game Stop, Best Buy, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, it's not just one HDTV source, it's one digital source. For example, I can't show an HDTV channel (via component from STB) in one window and DVD via HDMI in another.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tim T


Originally posted by blueshark
Just chatted with the Sony online support person and you are right, that is the problem. Is there any technical reason for them to do this?

Is there a way for the picture mode settings (FULL, WIDE etc.) to "stick" with a video input? For example, the TV always switches back to FULL mode with my cable input (component) even though it was set to WIDE when the TV was turned off :(

Originally posted by timmytVA
If I'm not mistaken, it's not just one HDTV source, it's one digital source. For example, I can't show an HDTV channel (via component from STB) in one window and DVD via HDMI in another.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tim T

Your understanding is correct Tim. Any "digital" source is the key word there.

Inino Wrote: Yes, I believe there is a DVI on my current DVR STB but I really wanted to reserve the HDMI port on the TV for my PC. The person I spoke to on the phone at Insight didn't know what DVI or HDMI was.

You do have an option here. Gefen makes an HDMI and a DVI switcher which allows you multiple HDMI or DVI feeds to one input. The switcher comes with a remote to select which input signal you want to send to your TV. I believe the 2X1 HDMI switcher is around $249.00. The 4X1 is more expensive. This switcher works quite well and gives you the flexibility you are looking for.

Gefen HDMI 2X1 Switcher (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2208)

Originally posted by August West
Anybody with a Panny S97 or other Faroujda chip DVD player? Is macroblocking visible?

I have the 50WE655 using the Zenith 318 DVD player (Faroujda chip) set at 720P output and have had no visible macroblocking viewing at least 5 DVD's so far (had the set only 2 weeks as of today).

Thanks Lantano and August West for acknowledging my post... I'd like to hear more from the group as to what DVD players they're using... And if using the F-chip, is macroblocking visible....

Hey guys, havent posted much since I got my WE655 too busy watching it. :) Although thanks to everyone for the help in choosing one.

I knew about the display issue before I bought it (with it popping up randomly even though the remote wasn't touched). I was just wondering if this issue was solved yet? Thanks.

Originally posted by Stryker412
I knew about the display issue before I bought it (with it popping up randomly even though the remote wasn't touched). I was just wondering if this issue was solved yet? Thanks.

Nope, not solved yet. It seems to vary among users. I, for one, only get that display to pop up perhaps once every 40 hours of watching TV...it's interesting that I haven't seen it pop up before while watching DVDs...that has me wondering whether it could be something in the broadcast signal that makes the display pop up.

Other viewers claim they see the display pop up much more frequently...as frequent as every six hours or so.

If you want to make things a tad better, turn off the info banner in the options and if the pesty display does happen to go on again, at least it'll only pop up the CH and time.

This problem might be solved with a newer firmware for the set, but even so, installing the firmware obviously won't be an available option for everybody.

EDIT: I just read from another thread of a Mitsi user who upgraded the firmware via CF...so if Sony is so willing, they can upgrade the TV's firmware via memory stick (and fix other bugs on top of that, like my no audio for analog channels from the fav menu bug).

Thanks. It's not really annoying since it doesn't happen that often. My wife says its me because it never happens to her but who knows lol. Thanks for the update though.

Originally posted by Squawks
Nope, not solved yet. It seems to vary among users. I, for one, only get that display to pop up perhaps once every 40 hours of watching TV...it's interesting that I haven't seen it pop up before while watching DVDs...that has me wondering whether it could be something in the broadcast signal that makes the display pop up.

It is something in the signal. When I am watching and an EBS test banner comes onscreen then finishes I get the popup every time. Rarely if ever otherwise.

Just got my 55wf655 last week. I've literally spent hours setting up and testing the standard settings to get things looking just right.

The macroblocking I'm getting happens during fast motion scenes and during changes of brighness during certain scenes. Scared the sh** outta me initially and I thought "Damn, this is too much". I then messed with the settings thinking one or a combo is causing this.

One setting on the set-NOISE REDUCTION causes this. On high it is nearly unwatchable with lots of movement/brightness changes, such as the first trailer on the SAW DVD, or the tunnel scene in I,ROBOT where the walls break up into large colored rectangles. Setting NOISE REDUCTION to off completely removes the problem; pics are crystal clear again.

Anyone else notice this?

-J

What is Macroblocking. I have a WE655 and have no idea what it is referring to.

Originally posted by UVArplcd
What is Macroblocking. I have a WE655 and have no idea what it is referring to. Don't ask, ignorance is bliss.

Its not your TV ,its to mpeg processing,the signal they send ,its visible on dlp,LCD,CRT,TV`s

Be aware that the Gefen HDMI switch does NOT pass audio. I sent the following question to then...
Me: "Do your HDMI 2x1 switch boxes support audio via HDMI or just video?"
Gefen Response:
"Just Video so far,

The 2x2 supports audio.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2757

It will be released later this month.

Thank you,
Gefen Support"

AkaStp thanks for the info. I was not aware of the audio transfer problem via the switcher and was assuming the HDMI in to HDMI out would automatically pass both audio & video.

No big thing for those who have AV receivers with several Optical Audio inputs that would run sound direct from the source to the receiver, but someone assuming sound transfer through the switcher would be SOL.

Thanks

Its not your TV ,its to mpeg processing,the signal they send ,its visible on dlp,LCD,CRT,TV`s

I understand that this is the case but anecdotally the evidence seems to indicate to me that the display device has something to do with it. On the S97 DVD player owner's thread some people have the issue and some do not. This would say that either

1) Like DLP rainbows, some people do and some do not see MB. I would not think this is true

2) Variations in F-chip manufacturing QA/QC cause variations in the S97 performance in this regard. Possible, but I would hope this is not so

3) Differences in the display device. As another poster wrote, they have the opinion on the GWIV that there is a correlation between MB and the noise reduction settings. I tend to think that there is something to this kind of thought process - that MB is worse on certain displays and/or worse with certain contrast/brightness/NR etc. settings.

I have no proof of any of this and am not claiming the above to be accurate, it's just a theory based on discussions on other threads.

Originally posted by August West
I understand that this is the case but anecdotally the evidence seems to indicate to me that the display device has something to do with it. On the S97 DVD player owner's thread some people have the issue and some do not. This would say that either

1) Like DLP rainbows, some people do and some do not see MB. I would not think this is true

2) Variations in F-chip manufacturing QA/QC cause variations in the S97 performance in this regard. Possible, but I would hope this is not so

3) Differences in the display device. As another poster wrote, they have the opinion on the GWIV that there is a correlation between MB and the noise reduction settings. I tend to think that there is something to this kind of thought process - that MB is worse on certain displays and/or worse with certain contrast/brightness/NR etc. settings.

I have no proof of any of this and am not claiming the above to be accurate, it's just a theory based on discussions on other threads.



I use this forum to determine what I should buy, and the problems reported can possibly save me alot of money, hassle, and heartache.

It seems to be the consensus that the signals fed to the Sonys are 100% to blame for the artifacts reported. There are several sources that contribute to these observances, but I haven't read any posts yet pointing to the set's own processing. I just happened to find this out after being convinced that only the source signals areto blame, buying the set, then going through my own battery of tests and tweaks.

It's still a great set and worth every penny. Funny irony though- I chose this set because I saw this on a showroom floor next to a whole bunch of them(including their Qualia line). While they all looked good, the Sony has the best picture and handled fast motion scenes like a CRT, which I thought was impossible at this stage of the technology's development. The Qualia looked just as good, but I could not easily discern enough of a difference to qualify a $10,000 premium.

-J

I have only seen "macroblocking" on some HD channels. Must be the channels that use too much compression. I have never seen it on DVDs or on video game consoles, so it must be the source signal.

Not to get off topic, but the best I have seen on macroblocking is on the Pananonic S97 thread started by Paul Bigelow who has done an amazing job on MB and other issues. It stands to reason that some of what he suggests as tweaks to the DVD player can also be applied to the TV setting. From one of his posts:

DVD-S97 MACROBLOCK SURVIVAL GUIDE:
---------------------------------------------------
"Macroblocking" has become a hot topic these days with the introduction of the Sage/Faroudja FLI23xx solution. To some degree or other players with this chip family seem to exhibit the issue.

What does "macroblocking" mean to the viewer? Black backgrounds may not look entirely black. The backgrounds might look "busy". Black and white programming may have an occasional, small, subtle, momentary introduction of a shade of color on a particular, small portion of the screen. Large areas of solid beige, light brown, "earthtones" may have small areas of momentary, subtle emphasis of color. Thankfully, in the vast majority of material the issue isn't visible or the occurance so quick as to be unnoticed.

What can be done? The best thing to be done is critical adjustment of the display and DVD player. A lot of the macroblocking activity is noted in dim scenes with low level brightness and color or bright scenes with low level color. The key is "low level". Adjustments that can emphasize "low level" picture characteristics will emphasize macroblocking.

My best suggetions:

Get Digital Video Essentials (DVE), if one does not have it.

Brightness and Contrast: Adjust critically. Avoid the temptation to "give it a little boost". Boosting the brightness will emphasize dim scene macroblocking.

Color: Adjust critically. Avoid the tempation to "add a little zip". Boosting the color will emphasize low color level macroblocking -- especially in Black and White material and large areas of beige and light brown scenes (such as the desert sands in Lawrence of Arabia).

Dynamic picture "enhancements". This is tricky. The enhancements typically tend to emphasize color and contrast which normally encourages the presense of macroblocking, however the enhancements also tend to reduce brightness in dim scenes and introduce some "black crush" which can help reduce the appearance of macroblocking. Best bet: try it/remove it and see.

Suggestions that come with a penalty:

Introduce a bit of "black crush" at the display. While removing some low level detail and shading it can also hide dim scene macroblocking.

Reduce color. While it removes a little of the color it also reduces the emphasis place on low level color blocks. In truly Black and White material, reducing the color to minimum (at the display) can remove the low level color macroblocking.

Introduce some MPEG NR on the 'S97. While it can smear some fine detail, it tends to smooth out the macroblocks making the occurance less noticeable.

Reduce the Contrast on the 'S97 to -1. While it can take away a bit of the vibrancy of the picture, it seems to minimize a bit of the occurance of macroblocks.

Originally posted by drwtsn32
I have only seen "macroblocking" on some HD channels. Must be the channels that use too much compression. I have never seen it on DVDs or on video game consoles, so it must be the source signal.

To clarify, it is accepted that the source signal causes macroblocking. Again, however, I'm not discussing source signal caused issues. While that may describe something other than what I'm definitely seeing, and what I'm seeing is definitely a problem, then maybe this problem isn't "macroblocking", but some other anomaly that causes the "screen quilting" problem to be visible. I'm looking for those who've seen THIS problem, which I've discovered to be associated with the set's NOISE REDUCTION setting and is extremely evident on DVD, and discuss how they've dealt with this or explain how to minimize this without turning NOISE REDUCTION off.

-J

First of all Hi to all.

I have a ? for all of you GWIV owners. I have a 55wf655, and when there is no programing on the screen, ive noticed that the top right and bottom left of the screen is a lighter black than the rest of the screen. Is this normal or should i exchange it?

To clarify, it is accepted that the source signal causes macroblocking. Again, however, I'm not discussing source signal caused issues. While that may describe something other than what I'm definitely seeing, and what I'm seeing is definitely a problem, then maybe this problem isn't "macroblocking", but some other anomaly that causes the "screen quilting" problem to be visible. I'm looking for those who've seen THIS problem, which I've discovered to be associated with the set's NOISE REDUCTION setting and is extremely evident on DVD, and discuss how they've dealt with this or explain how to minimize this without turning NOISE REDUCTION off.

The problem you describe sure sounds like macroblocking. That being the case the source in this case is your DVD player and the NOISE REDUCTION setting (off) apparently helps relieve the problem. I can say I have not experienced similar when playing DVD over HDMI and as far as the NOISE REDUCTION adjustment goes have never seen it have any effect on any input I am viewing. Just my thoughts.

Originally posted by drwtsn32
I have only seen "macroblocking" on some HD channels. Must be the channels that use too much compression. I have never seen it on DVDs or on video game consoles, so it must be the source signal. I think I have seen this effect on PBS-HD OTA signals (the only HD chan I currently get), but as the above poster said, not on DVDs, SD or my Xbox.

I don't get good OTA reception for PBS so have assumed this was the culprit - I will have to see once i get my hd-stb installed.

Anyway, what I see during some shows is a somewhat digitized, blocky image that quickly reduce into a smooth picture. The blocks are not huge but notiable and usually occurs during scene transitions. The are more visable on some objects (like skin/faces) more than others.

Originally posted by Mtnmike
The problem you describe sure sounds like macroblocking. That being the case the source in this case is your DVD player and the NOISE REDUCTION setting (off) apparently helps relieve the problem. I can say I have not experienced similar when playing DVD over HDMI and as far as the NOISE REDUCTION adjustment goes have never seen it have any effect on any input I am viewing. Just my thoughts.

I'm using the Sony 400 disc megachanger (dvp-cx985v). This player has many image "enhancement options also and I suspected that a dvd/tv settings combo was causing the problem. But I only cut off NOISE REDUCTION on the TV...and the problem disappeared completely.

Maybe the NOISE REDUCTION setting produces this effect only with some DVD players?

-J

Originally posted by portugal11
... I'd like to hear more from the group as to what DVD players they're using... And if using the F-chip, is macroblocking visible....

New 55wf655 with a Sony DVP-NS975V. Have only viewed a few DVDs and have not noticed any macroblocking. Superior picture to my older Sony DVD.

Originally posted by August West
Not to get off topic, but the best I have seen on macroblocking is on the Pananonic S97 thread started by Paul Bigelow who has done an amazing job on MB and other issues. It stands to reason that some of what he suggests as tweaks to the DVD player can also be applied to the TV setting. From one of his posts:

DVD-S97 MACROBLOCK SURVIVAL GUIDE:
---------------------------------------------------
"Macroblocking" has become a hot topic these days with the introduction of the Sage/Faroudja FLI23xx solution. To some degree or other players with this chip family seem to exhibit the issue.

What does "macroblocking" mean to the viewer? Black backgrounds may not look entirely black. The backgrounds might look "busy". Black and white programming may have an occasional, small, subtle, momentary introduction of a shade of color on a particular, small portion of the screen. Large areas of solid beige, light brown, "earthtones" may have small areas of momentary, subtle emphasis of color. Thankfully, in the vast majority of material the issue isn't visible or the occurance so quick as to be unnoticed.

What can be done? The best thing to be done is critical adjustment of the display and DVD player. A lot of the macroblocking activity is noted in dim scenes with low level brightness and color or bright scenes with low level color. The key is "low level". Adjustments that can emphasize "low level" picture characteristics will emphasize macroblocking.

My best suggetions:

Get Digital Video Essentials (DVE), if one does not have it.

Brightness and Contrast: Adjust critically. Avoid the temptation to "give it a little boost". Boosting the brightness will emphasize dim scene macroblocking.

Color: Adjust critically. Avoid the tempation to "add a little zip". Boosting the color will emphasize low color level macroblocking -- especially in Black and White material and large areas of beige and light brown scenes (such as the desert sands in Lawrence of Arabia).

Dynamic picture "enhancements". This is tricky. The enhancements typically tend to emphasize color and contrast which normally encourages the presense of macroblocking, however the enhancements also tend to reduce brightness in dim scenes and introduce some "black crush" which can help reduce the appearance of macroblocking. Best bet: try it/remove it and see.

Suggestions that come with a penalty:

Introduce a bit of "black crush" at the display. While removing some low level detail and shading it can also hide dim scene macroblocking.

Reduce color. While it removes a little of the color it also reduces the emphasis place on low level color blocks. In truly Black and White material, reducing the color to minimum (at the display) can remove the low level color macroblocking.

Introduce some MPEG NR on the 'S97. While it can smear some fine detail, it tends to smooth out the macroblocks making the occurance less noticeable.

Reduce the Contrast on the 'S97 to -1. While it can take away a bit of the vibrancy of the picture, it seems to minimize a bit of the occurance of macroblocks.

While some of the advice might be good, it will not reduce macroblocking, because what is being described is not macroblocking. What is being described here sounds more like quantization noise error. QNE can be minimized by some of these settings, but if it is in the signal, it's still there in force, and is not something that can be eradicated by adjustments.

QNE usually mainfests at the same level regardless of the amount of motion or scene changes, because it is not a temporal coding defect. Macroblocking is strictly due to temporal coding (actually, decoding) so it varies by scene change and by amount of motion. IOW, when there is a bright flash between scenes or when there is a lot of activity, this is harder to temporally encode, and if there are not enough bits, the macroblocks at decode do not get updated in a timely manner, remaining frozen on the screen for a split second.

There is no adjustment that will reduce macroblocking, or even minimize it. On DVD's played back on a Sony display (or other SD video) the noise reduction within the DRC might cause some smearing, but this is also not macroblocking and should not be confused with that. Macroblocking is strictly a digital artifact based on bitstarving, which can't manifest in DRC, and typically DVD's are connected in the analog domain to the display. If you see true macroblocking on a DVD, it is manifesting in the decoder within the player itself, and not within the Sony display, meaning if you are adjusting the display and getting a better result, what you are fixing is not macroblocking but some other artifact.

While macroblocking or tiling and QNE are two separate digital artifacts, they are completely different in how they manifest and they also look entirely different. It is difficult to mistake one for the other, but obviously some have found a way to do that.

Originally posted by portugal11
... I'd like to hear more from the group as to what DVD players they're using... And if using the F-chip, is macroblocking visible....

Sony DVP NS975V upconverting player with no problems and stunning PQ displayed on my 55WF655. No artifacts, macroblocking, black or white crush.

I have a ? for all of you GWIV owners. I have a 55wf655, and when there is no programing on the screen, ive noticed that the top right and bottom left of the screen is a lighter black than the rest of the screen. Is this normal or should i exchange it?
I've on my third 42WE655 (for various reasons) and they all had what you describe to one extent or another. One was almost perfect, one was really bad, and the set I decided to keep is somewhere in the middle. Anyway, as long as the difference in black isn't readily visible during normal viewing and isn't distracting on either letterbox bars or windowbox bars, I'd keep the set. If you exchange it, you're just as likely to get one that's worse than one that's better.

I'm getting digital OTA on my 55wf655. When I change channels the output must switch briefly from digital to analog. My receiver also switches, and in doing so makes an annoying loud clicking sound. It makes the sound 2 times every time I change a channel, once when it leaves the digital channel, and again when it sees the next digital channel. This gets very annoying when I'm changing channels. Is there any way to tell the set to not switch as you change channels? Is anyone else noticing this? Let me know if you have any ideas.

As many of you are aware, I've been curious about Gamma Correction and its impact on PQ. I spared this thread by creating a separate one under RPTV called Gamma Correction - Why it matters http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5206199

After searching almost all of AVSforum, I found myself asking the Qualia 006 owners some questions about how our Sony User Settings (or Service Menu Settings) equate to actual Gamma values. Thanks to "Chad B" there is an excellent post in the Qualia 006 owner's thread on this subject that provides more detail. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5205600#post5205600

Many thanks to others here that have commented (Dan, Tomcat, etc.).

Separately, Got my new SA8300HD yesterday and had to re-tweak a little more, but it is awesome after some minor increase to Brightness, less color and use of either low or med on Gamma Corrector. Also, I turned off Live Color (for now) as the newer STB seems to do a better job than the old and there may be no need for "enhancement." Analog broadcasts are a TON better, too.

I was under the impression that Sony gw`s converted hd inputs to analog for processing, as one resident guru suggested it would be better to get a good DVD player with analog out(Dont bother with DVI) because the Sony GW would convert it to that anyways.
Now I came across this site and in the video they state that the GW`s HD inputs are kept in the digital state for all processing,Thats how Gw`s can provide such a sharp picture.Can someone clear this up? thanks ,jo

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=173764

Direct Link to VVega Engine:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/view/TVLanding/wega_engine.shtml?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&categoryId=32050#menutop

Originally posted by jojo57
I was under the impression that Sony gw`s converted hd inputs to analog for processing, as one resident guru suggested it would be better to get a good DVD player with analog out(Dont bother with DVI) because the Sony GW would convert it to that anyways.
Now I came across this site and in the video they state that the GW`s HD inputs are kept in the digital state for all processing,Thats how Gw`s can provide such a sharp picture.Can someone clear this up? thanks ,jo

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=173764

I believe (read elsewhere) that all DVD is 480i. Member "Michael M" has directed many of us to a thread (that I can't locate) on this subject.

My experience with my 55XS955 indicates better results by leaving it at 480i and letting the GWIV handle it. The link you provided helps understand why (the two boxes "CCP2" and "DRC..."). I'm assuming the illustrated technology is far superior to my DVD, yours may differ.

Nice illustration. Thx.

I believe that the GVV II or III`s had older circuitry and would convert HD inputs to analog as part of the processing,I have read that the Mitsubishi`s also do this.
This equipment is evolving so fast even a posts 6 months old can be outdated.I guess this is what i`m experiencing.
Sony has free Internet courses and access to the teachers.

http://www.sonydigitaluniversity.com/campuses/campus.jsp?

Originally posted by jojo57
Direct Link to VVega Engine:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/view/TVLanding/wega_engine.shtml?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&categoryId=32050#menutop
The only thing missing from the diagram is the HDMI input and how it is processed. If I understand correctly, the component video inputs are converted to digital, then the entire processing from that point is digital straight to the panels. If this is true, it would make some sense that the HMDI inputs could go directly into the digital processing. That would also help explain why some people are seeing better DVD output using the HDMI connection rather than the component video connection.

Hey Sony, what's the story?

BTW, the video link on Sony's web page didn't work for me (using Mozilla Firefox). If anyone else has this problem, try the following link:

http://wm.chalknetwork.na-regional.speedera.net.staging.speedera.net/wm.chalknetwork.na-regional/Sony/Sony_AirCanada_October_WegaEngine_Hi.wmv

Michael

Maybe Yoshi Knows.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/sonyf/wega_e/

With past circuitry analog/digital conversions were implemented several times during each signal-processing phase. Noise increased each time and filtering degraded the signal waveform. However, the Wega Engine does not convert signals to analog at all from the signal input point until just before reaching the final display driver

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
My experience with my 55XS955 indicates better results by leaving it at 480i and letting the GWIV handle it. The link you provided helps understand why (the two boxes "CCP2" and "DRC..."). I'm assuming the illustrated technology is far superior to my DVD, yours may differ.
I have realized this as well... that the 55XS955 has a kick-ass deinterlacer and scaler. Using my Pioneer 578a in 480i mode looks amazing... using the Pioneer in 480 progressive mode looks crappy. I think the deinterlacer in the Pioneer stinks. I also bought an Oppo 'upconverting' DVD player (with Faroudja chip) and even that over HDMI (with DVI adapter) does not look as good as the Pioneer in interlaced mode over component.

Of course, the Oppo may just stink (despite the Faroudja chip) and other HDMI DVD players might have better performance... but man, I really think the Sony TV itself kicks butt. I feel no compelling reason to get another HDMI DVD Player soon. (And I'm going to sell that Oppo.)

-Terry

So, if I'm reading the diagram correctly, if you have the DVD player connected to one of the component inputs and it is in progressive mode the DRC circuitry is bypassed. If the player is not in PS mode then the DRC comes into play.

Originally posted by dmbatch
So, if I'm reading the diagram correctly, if you have the DVD player connected to one of the component inputs and it is in progressive mode the DRC circuitry is bypassed. If the player is not in PS mode then the DRC comes into play.

I did not draw that same conclusion after reading Question 5 in the link above referring to "ask Yoshi" Sony page. The diagram at that question shows the use of CCP, with a brief description under question 5.

Not sure if he was kidding about "ask Yoshi" since its an "Investor Relations" page, but info is useful.

Yoshihiro Yamamoto

Senior General Manager,
Video Module Promotion Dept.,
Display Development Div.,
Home Network Company


Yoshihiro Yamamoto entered Sony Corporation in 1975. Since then, he has taken part in the development of video and audio integrated circuits designed for television system.

After four years in TV design activity in Europe, he was assigned to FPD product design and currently he is responsible for the development of high-quality video signal process modules in development division.

His motto is "Life's value is determined by how often you are deeply moved".

Originally posted by TerryJ
... but man, I really think the Sony TV itself kicks butt.

Amen. While its only been 2 months for me I've stopped looking at my Sony as the source of any problem. Believe me I've had TWC, my builder, different STBs, various cables. Its taken some tweaking, but my opinion is we have a giant magnifying glass that surfaces other issues. All you need to do is change the channel on it a few times to see what I mean. After all the tweaking, mine is well focused and it was well worth it.

Believe me, I'd never go neck deep into something like Gamma Corrector as I've done if I hadn't stopped looking at the Sony for issues and instead started looking right through the magnifier to the source(s).

"I've stopped looking at my Sony as the source of any problem.we have a giant magnifying glass that surfaces other issues" jo

I have been having problems receiving 2 HDTV channels (NBC, Fox). I read in the local HDTV section that on Feb 1st stations made some changes to their HDTV broadcasts, and others have had similar issues.

They recommended re-scanning, but that didn't work for me. However, I wasn't able to reset my TV before re-scanning. I tried unplugging it, but all the channels were still there. Is there a way to reset it so when I turn it on it doesn't remember all the channels?

Also, anyone else had similar problems, and could the problem be with the Sony's built in tuner? I only use the built in tuner (no STB), and I have the 55XS. If the problem is with the tuner, is their a fix to it? It's annoying, all my other HD channels come in perfectly, but I watch these 2 channels the most. They're unwatcheable now. The screen freezes and pixelates every couple seconds, and often just loses reception totally.

Thanks.

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
I did not draw that same conclusion after reading Question 5 in the link above referring to "ask Yoshi" Sony page. The diagram at that question shows the use of CCP, with a brief description under question 5.

Not sure if he was kidding about "ask Yoshi" since its an "Investor Relations" page, but info is useful.

I was referring to this diagram;

http://www.sonystyle.ca/view/TVLanding/wega_engine.shtml?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&categoryId=32050#menutop

It shows the component input going from a DVD player to the CCP2 and then DRC, but everyone is saying the DRC doesn't affect the 480P only the 480i. I'm so confused.;)

Originally posted by dmbatch
I was referring to this diagram;

http://www.sonystyle.ca/view/TVLanding/wega_engine.shtml?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&categoryId=32050#menutop

It shows the component input going from a DVD player to the CCP2 and then DRC, but everyone is saying the DRC doesn't affect the 480P only the 480i. I'm so confused.;)

I hear ya about being confused. I am referring to this diagram.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/sonyf/wega_e/qfhh7c000000cu22-att/qfhh7c000000cums.gif

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
I hear ya about being confused. I am referring to this diagram.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/sonyf/wega_e/qfhh7c000000cu22-att/qfhh7c000000cums.gif

Yeah, I saw that. What is not shown on any of these is where the HDMI comes in. Unless the Digital satellite/Digital cable HD input is the HDMI. If that's the case then they are the only inputs that bypass the DRC.

I would like to add some information to the "is it digital...is it analog" controversy surrounding the processing within the GWIV. My intent is to clear up some of the confusion, but I am a bit fearful that it might cause even more confusion. But, since sunlight is the best disinfectant, maybe more info is a good thing. I hope so.

I've never tried to attach a jpeg, so forgive me if this does not work out as well as I hope it might. Attached is part of a diagram illustrating the inputs and first processing on a GWIV. The diagram is to my knowledge genuine, and has not been doctored or photoshopped in any way. Though entitled " '04 GW Block Diagram" I think it must be a diagram of the GWIV, due to the multiple HDMI inputs (optional HDMI input 8 for XS) and the PCMIA slot for the CableCard module, which first appeared on the GWIV.

Assuming that much, notice that the component inputs 5 and 6 have the indication "YUV" directly indicating the video format (YUV is a common method of referring to analog component signals). Notice that inputs 1-4 are indicated as analog V Y/C. Other inputs include the output of the tuner IF, and the HDMI. The composite analog signals enter a video switch module directly. The component analog signals go through a preswitch, and then also enter the switch module without further processing.

The HDMI signals go first into dedicated SiI Silicon Image 9993 "HDMI Receiver" modules. Each of those seems to have a digital audio output and an analog video output. The video output is labeled as "YUV", which is again the indication used for analog component video. All of that leads me to infer that the processing module receives HDMI digital input, and outputs analog component video...IOW, it is essentially a DAC with HTCP. This now analog component signal ports into the same switching module where all of the other analog video inputs are routed. All processing is after that module, in virtually a common signal path (for HD). Some (SD) video is side processed later on by DRC, but not the HD video.

At the output of the switch, HD video is further processed by a 2D comb filter and something called an "analog C-Dec.". Since a 2D comb filter is an analog device, It would appear that the switcher module accepts analog video, and outputs analog video. There may indeed be conversion to the digital domain and corresponding processing later on (it gets a little murky at that point) but it certainly doesn't seem to go that direction until just before the LCD engine, and this strongly implies a mostly analog signal path for HD video.

If my inference is correct, that would seem to be at odds with the gurus and statements from Sony, which imply that digital video is processed completely in the digital domain all the way to the display driver. I'm not absolutely convinced that my theory is correct, but it seems like the only digital processing is an immediate conversion to analog of the HDMI inputs (and some DRC processing of the SD signals and final conversion for the LCD engine) and that the bulk of the processing happens only in the analog domain.

It may be that Sony has improved things from then GWIII so that there are not multiple conversions, but it still seems quite doubtful that processing is mostly digital. If this image is not telling us a lie, it would appear that the opposite is the case, and that 95% of the processing happens in the analog domain. In any case, there seems to be a severe credibility gap surrounding the claim of digital processing only and all the way.

Take what you will from this. I do not claim it as gospel, but I believe it to be genuine. Unless there is some major flaw in my interpretation, we are not getting the straight story from Yoshi or Sony. That much is transparently evident in light of this diagram.

This link:
http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=18338&forum=25
seems to support my theory. Also, on January 5, Silicon Image released the 3rd gen HDMI receiver chip, the 9011, which wholesales for a whopping $6.95.

Tomcat, to me it appears the diagram you posted equates to the simplified diagram at this link http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/sonyf/wega_e/qfhh7c000000cu22-att/qfhh7c000000cums.gif for the lower path "Conventional signal processing" where both diagrams show the D/A Conversion (digital to analog).

I believe the "question 5" response where this diagram is found is saying that the new LSI technology affords the upper path (without the D/A conversion). It reads: "...now we have the LSI technology to realize the digital chroma decoder we no longer need to carry out digital/analog and analog/digital conversions."

I'm not sure which Sony models your diagram and Yoshi's "new technology" equate to. Both sources of information seem consistent, where the newer technology differs from what may be a diagram of earlier engineering.

We all try to make sense out of chaos, but this diagram clearly says " '04 GW Block Diagram", and has components of the latest XS and WF sets, such as the cablecard and dual HDMI, which only debuted in October and were not available on earlier (GWIII) sets. A distinct black and white image which likely only could have originated from the Sony archives clearly showing this seems to be hard evidence that THIS set (GWIV) can't possibly be using digital processing for the entire signal path, or even a significant fraction of it.

Your link is busted, but I assure you this image encompasses all inputs to the GWIV (other than the memory stick USB reader), not just a portion of them.

I think the LSI he is referring to is indeed the SiI 9993, which I did a bit of research on. It is indeed a DAC and has on-board capabilities such as explained, but the final output is analog component, and is clearly labelled as such on the diagram and its output is clearly processed by the same exact analog switch and signal path as the other component analog signals, according to this diagram, at least, up until the output of that analog switcher.

Also, the CCPX later stage processing outputs only SD video according to this diagram, which is either applied to DRC (which does not process HD signals) or bypasses DRC altogether. The HD analog path is entirely different directly after the switcher, and eventually enters an ADC, implying that it is an analog signal up to that point. It appears that the DRC and non-DRC SD video as well as the HD video now converted back to digital, are all bussed together as digital signals to the LCD engine. That sure sounds like multiple conversions to me.

Possibly the earlier incarnation needed multiple conversions in the input stage alone just to do the same thing that the SiI 9993 does in one conversion. That's a definite improvement, but using a single DAC conversion as a prelude to chiefly analog processing that is apparently converted to digital once again is very different from implying that the signal path remains in the digital domain for the bulk of the processing. If this diagram is right, it clearly does not.

Your witness.

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
The only thing missing from the diagram is the HDMI input and how it is processed.


Anyone who is still confused,

I have the Service manual and schematics for the WE655 models. Anyone with a credit card can order the service manual from Sony.

Sony Electronics Inc.
World Repair Parts Center
8281 N.W. 107th
Terrace Kansas City, MO 64153 USA
(800) 488-7669 (USA Only) -or- (800) 345-7669

It was about $30.00 including shipping.

The HDMI input is on the 'P' board. The HDMI connector goes directly to the input side of a SiI9993 HDMI receiver. Silicon Image pulled the data sheet from their website, but you can still get the overview at http://www.siimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-9993.pdf

The chip has a digital output. It also has analog outputs from an on-board 10-bit DAC.
Sony is using Y, Pr, Pb analog component outputs. This is clearly labled on the schematic. The analog component signal goes to the CXA 2209Q video switch on the A board. At this point the signal goes through the same path as any other component video. The comb filter is bypassed for all component video, including HDMI. The Video signal is eventually converted back to digital on the B board. Sony is using an 8-bit ADC from TI. The WE is on the B board. At this point the signal is all digital through to the LCD engine. This is true for ALL the GWIV sets, not just the 50WE655.

Originally posted by TomCat

Your link is busted...

Fixed.

I understand the diagram and post, as well as the one that follows yours.

Please don't shoot the messenger, unless I've misinterpreted what the witness (Yoshi/Sony) has said or illustrated - which I very well may have.

Is the Sony illustration showing what happens AFTER the initial digital to analog conversion? I ask because it shows only analog inputs for the 2 paths. If so, I misread the picture, and the process would be consistent with what you all are saying.

Did you guys listen to Dave chalk? is he Stretching the truth?

http://www.sonystyle.ca/html/DaveChalkSays/WegaEngine/Sony_AirCanada_October_WegaEngine_Hi.asx

New in 2003 is the WEGA Engine, which integrates advanced digital circuitries to maximize picture performance from any video source by minimizing the number of digital-to-analog conversion processes. Giving you much brighter colours and brilliant clarity.

I guess

minimizing is the key

tomcat can you post more of the block diagram? thanks jo

The chip has a digital output. It also has analog outputs from an on-board 10-bit DAC.
Sony is using Y, Pr, Pb analog component outputs. This is clearly labled on the schematic. The analog component signal goes to the CXA 2209Q video switch on the A board. At this point the signal goes through the same path as any other component video. The comb filter is bypassed for all component video, including HDMI. The Video signal is eventually converted back to digital on the B board. Sony is using an 8-bit ADC from TI. The WE is on the B board. At this point the signal is all digital through to the LCD engine. This is true for ALL the GWIV sets, not just the 50WE655.

I have to agree with andrew535.Need schematics of Sony`s cxa2209q and cxa2199q. jo

Picked up the WE 50 655 yesterday for 2.3 K at CC. I also picked up the 4 yr warranty including bulb for 290. Overall the purchase went smoothly. CC was the only store willing to PM internet prices. BB and UE were not willing to budge much at all.....

I can't wait to get the thing home this week.. :)

Originally posted by jimboeau
Picked up the WE 50 655 yesterday for 2.3 K at CC. I also picked up the 4 yr warranty including bulb for 290. Overall the purchase went smoothly. CC was the only store willing to PM internet prices. BB and UE were not willing to budge much at all.....

I can't wait to get the thing home this week.. :) nice price.

Originally posted by jojo57
New in 2003 is the WEGA Engine, which integrates advanced digital circuitries to maximize picture performance from any video source by minimizing the number of digital-to-analog conversion processes. Giving you much brighter colours and brilliant clarity.

I guess

minimizing is the key

OK. The way I interpret this is that they have MINIMIZED the number of conversions but that refers to the entire WEGA engine, and also refers to 2003, so this is a GWIII advance. "Giving you brighter colours and brilliant clarity."? Disregarding the fact that this is not even a complete sentence, I doubt that the improvement is that earthshaking.

All one has to do is read the owner's manual or log on to SonyStyle to see that hyperbole is Sony's biggest product, and stretching the truth is their primary job. They are trying to move them 'frigerators, and if telling you what you want to hear moves more of them, that's fine. They aren't interested in what or how you connect to them, unless what you connect has the Sony badge on it. That's all they are about, making you feel good about laying down 4 grand, and they will tell you anything to get in your pants even if it's designed to make you think something else is going on that really isn't while not blatantly lying to you. Karl Rove would be proud of Sony. It's seduction, pure and simple. Just pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. That doesn't mean the sets aren't terrific, because they clearly are as good as anything out there.

Maybe it wasn't Sony that said it, but there are claims of full digital domain path processing flying around like mosquito noise, and folks are wondering whether HDMI is an improvement because it is digital. The simple answer there is no, no, no, it does not have any advantage. Andrew posts in another forum that it might actually be smarter to buy the DVD that has component outs to avoid this 7-dollar part altogether and instead rely on the superior DAC in a high-end player, rather than buying an HDMI player for even more money, and that seems to make a lot of sense. Common reports of better performance through component seem to jive with that thinking.

But this is coming from a completely satisfied customer (me) who couldn't be more pleased and is convinced that his set is the best HD receiver and display money can buy. I get a little upset over the arrogance of some of the marketing hype, and in the interests of helping people with their quandry over what DVD player or $125 HDMI cables to buy (ironically, to connect directly to a 7-dollar processing module) I think it's important to point out what is going on inside the set and why certain choices might be wrong-headed if deluded into thinking something else entirely is happening, simply because of sales hype or internet fever. It does no one any service to tell them their set is "fully digital" when most of the processing happens in the analog domain.

And that is not a bad thing, in fact strategically processing in analog under certain conditions makes perfect sense, and much more sense than remaining in the digital domain. Digital does not equate to better, at least not always.

I will be glad to post the entire document once I figure out how to get it into the size and other restraints of the forum (I'm a total newb at that). For right now, let's just concentrate on the input stage and the evidence that HDMI is immediately converted to analog for much of the processing, as that is what the current argument was about.

Truth above all!

tomcat, on the 04gw block ,see video 7&8 after leaving the sil 9993 ,they are tied together and go off to the right ,where do they go?s is that yuv or is yuv coming out of sw?thanks jojo

Originally posted by TomCat
...Assuming that much, notice that the component inputs 5 and 6 have the indication "YUV" directly indicating the video format (YUV is a common method of referring to analog component signals). Notice that inputs 1-4 are indicated as analog V Y/C.

...The HDMI signals go first into dedicated SiI Silicon Image 9993 "HDMI Receiver" modules. Each of those seems to have a digital audio output and an analog video output. The video output is labeled as "YUV", which is again the indication used for analog component video. All of that leads me to infer that the processing module receives HDMI digital input, and outputs analog component video...

If my inference is correct, that would seem to be at odds with the gurus and statements from Sony, which imply that digital video is processed completely in the digital domain


Tomcat, bear with me on this because you know far more about this than I do. Are you CERTAIN about your statement that "YUV is a common method of referring to analog component signals" since I can't determine that for certain from reading elsewhere on the web? What I have read refers to color and luminance. It doesn't make sense that it does mean analog. That's why I'm here, to ask questions and learn.

Why would anyone design a product (chip) for D/A and then A/D conversion? The link to the .pdf file for the product indicates it has both analog and digital out (and so does the text description). I'm interpreting it as having dual capabilities, which would be consistent with the Sony description.

If YUV is not (only) analog, then both analog and digital inputs are going through the "Receiver" for the Sil 9993, and it (as stated in the .pdf) has the available digital output capability.

First of all ---->THANKS!!<---- to everyone for all of the immense knowledge and help. I've been lurking since 10/04 when I got my 50WE655, but now I wanted to join in the conversations. :D

I have (probably the WORST dvd player -from what I've read- ) a Samsung HD-841 that has the HDMI up-converting feature. To my untrained eye on my uncalibrated (except for eyeballing the THX and service menu AXIS-0) 50we655, digital (soon to be analog) 1080i looks better than 720p which looks quite a bit better than component. Of course it could be that the component of the Sammy dvd player is just bad.

With the tv set to vivid while watching Monster's Inc. I set all user menu options for each input to obtain the "best" (subjective, huh?) picture as judged by me and my 12 y/o daughter. I took some pictures with my Canon Pro 1 camera and would be glad to throw together a simple web page showing the results if anyone would like.

I think it's fascinating to listen to Sony's PR and compare it with some real facts. I love my GrandWega, though.

dumbest of questions:

Specs of wf55 mention subwoofer out on back panel. To hook up to active sw do I use the L (mono) out on the audio out panel in the back>

I know it is dumb.

thanks

Andrew535: Does the service manual describe how to get at the settings that the XS's/955's have that the 655's don't? I know it's described on threads here; I'm just curious.

About 3/4 of the way down on this website it shows a example of mori`e its a combing weave look at the picture of dirt ,it focus and blurs at about one second intervals ,I`ve seen this on my Sony gw4 but only on Jeopardy game show especially in Alex triebacks hair( fine strands ) ,Ive seen the weaving too on weak 480i inputs,jo


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Here`s a direct link to that dirt shot watch it closely.jo


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-flag_drop_to_video_dinosaur_large.gif

Here`s a direct link to Single-Field Interpolation example.jo

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-comb_galaxy_quest_large.gif

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
...Are you CERTAIN about your statement that "YUV is a common method of referring to analog component signals" since I can't determine that for certain from reading elsewhere on the web?...

Why would anyone design a product (chip) for D/A and then A/D conversion? The link to the .pdf file for the product indicates it has both analog and digital out (and so does the text description). I'm interpreting it as having dual capabilities, which would be consistent with the Sony description.

If YUV is not (only) analog, then both analog and digital inputs are going through the "Receiver" for the Sil 9993, and it (as stated in the .pdf) has the available digital output capability.

If you look at the diagram for the 9993 you will see two main processing blocks, plus some HDCP ancillary key handling. The 9993 is a HDMI receiver module, meaning it is designed to be a companion module to a HDMI transmitter, which is what is in your HD Tivo and DVD players. It is optimized to accept HDMI, IOW, and that is the primary function.

As far as processing, it has a 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 upconverter, which I find puzzling as to its purpose, as 4:2:2 video upconverted to 4:4:4 would seem to serve no purpose, and definitely can't improve the quality. Not only that, but HD is transmitted as 4:2:0. Now, it appears to do all of that in the digital domain, so possibly that is the improvement that Sony is crowing about, and possibly the first gen HDMI receiver used an additional conversion. I just don't know.

There is a direct digital output from that. The fact that Sony IGNORES this output in favor of an analog output is pretty conclusive as to their intent, which is to process in analog. IOW, they've got the digital right there for free, but they chose the analog instead, so for their purposes, it obviously makes better sense.

The second major process inside the 9993 is the 10-bit DAC, which outputs Y Pr Pb, otherwise known as component analog, and yes, quite often referred to as YUV. It takes a direct tap off of the digital output. The 9993 is a multipurpose LSI, and Sony is using some, but not all, of its capabilities, but is using all of its processing stages. It does NOT include a DAC AND an ADC, it is a HDMI receiver with an integrated (digital domain) chroma upconverter, that has a direct digital output as well as a downstream DAC output. The ADC stage is later, and is necessary for converting the now analog signals for use in the LCD engine. SD signals are already converted to digital for DRC processing, and that allows all signals to be digital at that stage.

Originally posted by jojo57
tomcat, on the 04gw block ,see video 7&8 after leaving the sil 9993 ,they are tied together and go off to the right ,where do they go?s is that yuv or is yuv coming out of sw?thanks jojo

There are 3 outputs used by Sony on this diagram, and none of them pass digital video for processing. One is digital audio, which goes to a outboard DAC and then to an analog switch and a second switch (the counterpart of the analog video switcher). The Y Pr Pb or YUV output goes to the analog video switcher mod, and the digital output goes to HDCP processing only. It's only function is to look for HDCP key validation and to shut down the analog video at the output of the analog switcher if the HDCP keys are not valid, as part of DRM. While the digital output is used for this, digital video itself is not processed.

The 9993 has digital video out, but Sony chooses not to use it, probably for very sound reasons. Since my posts are beginning to look like the ramblings of the Unibomber, I have had to learn to edit, and although there is a digital out, it was not relevant since it is not used. Rather than confuse things even more, I ignored that fact in favor of other discussion. Realize that there is no intent to hide this, and the fact that Sony has the digital output available and still eschews it is even stronger validation of their choice of analog processing.

Originally posted by UVArplcd
Andrew535: Does the service manual describe how to get at the settings that the XS's/955's have that the 655's don't? I know it's described on threads here; I'm just curious.
This thread and the the GWIII/GWIV tweaks threads are the best resources I've found so far.

The service menu documentation in the Service Manual is almost useless. The Service Manual has the following Service Menu information.
How to enter and navigate the Service Menu. Useful
How to set display geometry. Typos in this section make it useless.
A table of the settings that can be changed in the service menu. There is no description of what these settings do or how to adjust them.
How to obtain the full list of service menu parameters. The service menu has hundreds of parameters you can look at but not change. These are not listed in the Service Manual. The Service Manual gives an email address to request the full list. The Service Manual also has take-apart instructions and the schematics.

Just FYI:

Regarding the 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 chroma upconverter in the Silicon Image 9993:

4:2:2 limits chroma bandwidth to half the luminance bandwith, meaning chroma resolution is half that of luminance rez, meaning every 2 pixels (for chroma) are represented by a single value. IOW, instead of 1920 individual pixel values for 1080i per scanning line, there are only 960 coefficients representing chroma. In 4:4:4, every pixel has its own coefficient giving a true 1920 pixels.

To convert 4:2:2 to 4:4:4, all that needs to be done is to take the single value representing the 2 pixels and duplicate it, or actually to set the value of each of the 2 individual coefficients for 4:4:4 chroma to that same value. That's a very simple algorithm. But this means that while every pixel will have its own coefficient, every two pixels will still have identical values, as if they were still coded as 4:2:2.

Net result? no visible improvement. I can only imagine that further processing down the line must be able to minimize rounding errors better with a 4:4:4 input, even if it is 4:2:2 quality. But since Sony ignores the digital output altogether, the on-board DAC would be the only possible place capable of taking advantage of this, if at all, making me a bit skeptical that there is any benefit to this.

Since my posts are beginning to look like the ramblings of the Unibomber,

Cracked me up,LOL ,, jo

Originally posted by TomCat
[B] I doubt that the improvement is that earthshaking.


Probably not. CNET reviewers say PQ improved from GWII to GWIII, mostly in black level. I have no idea how much of this was from the WE. CNET didn't see much of a change in PQ from GWIII to GWIV.


The real question is what is Sony going to do on GWV? .

Will the potential PQ on the GWV be so much better that Sony will do the substantial redesign needed for an all digital path from HDMI connector to Wega Engine?

Will they bring in the high speed iris from their front projector?

Or will the GWV be mostly a costmetic change?

YUV Digital or Analog?

''In practice, YUV refers to the color difference encoding system whether composite or component, and "YUV," "Y, B-Y, R-Y" and "YPbPr" are used interchangeably for analog signals. Sometimes, "YCbCr," which is digital, is used interchangeably as well, which does not help to clarify the subject. "


http://www.answers.com/topic/ycbcr-sampling

While some of the advice might be good, it will not reduce macroblocking, because what is being described is not macroblocking. What is being described here sounds more like quantization noise error. QNE can be minimized by some of these settings, but if it is in the signal, it's still there in force, and is not something that can be eradicated by adjustments.

I sent your response off to the author of the macroblocking statement that I cut and pasted here earlier, and this was the response:

"I'd have to follow the original thread to really understand the context of what is being discussed. Obviously some other picture defect as seen with the GWIV is crucial to the discussion and the *S97* suggestions may not apply at all.

Technically speaking, the Panasonic DVD-S97 result in a picture that has macroblocks *enhanced*. Other players without the Faroudja FLI-23xx do not *enhance* the macroblocks. If one looks very closely one can still see the macroblocks as presented by other players, it's that the players utilizing the FLI-23xx enhances the visibility of them. Understanding this is crucial.

The suggestions supplied in the "survival kit" apply to the S97 and the *visible aspects* of the "macroblock enhance" as displayed by the player and may apply to other DVD players that utilize the Genesis Microchip/Faroudja FLI-23xx series of deinterlacers. That's it. The instructions are not meant to imply that so-called "macroblocking" or even the "macroblock enhance" is eliminated. Indeed, some of the suggestions are adjustment tricks to merely hide them.

These FLI-23xx players, for whatever reasons *enhance* the visibility of macroblocks. The suggestions are simply guidelines to reduce the visibility of them, because improper calibration of the display can enhance the visibility of the macroblocks even further.

Hope that explanation starts to clear matters up.

Paul"

He is careful to note that this is for the S97 DVD player specifically and is a way to deal with the MB by reducing its effects as opposed to actually getting rid of the MB. As to the QNE he is silent and I can't add anything to that as I am not familar with QNE.

All of this for what it's worth.

Originally posted by eaglengraver
OK, but still cannot figure out why Sony thinks it is 4:3 when it is 16:9. Whenh I run it on the 720p projector at work it reads as 16:9. I want it to fill my screen but do not want to STRETCH to fit. How can I get Sony to see it as a 16:9 signal? Did you find an answer to this?

I noticed this as well with my Xbox and DVD player. My tv show my Xbox running all games in 4:3 480p mode (need to try soul caliber in 720p and see what it says) even though I have the hd xbox and have it set to wide.

I also niced my DVD player (sony dream 700something) on the other component is saying 4:3/480p as well even though the player is set to 16:9. The images are sharp and undistored looking in full mode.

But on both component inputs (dvd/xbox) I have all wide, full, zoom and normal options available. When set to Normal I get pillared and letterboxed images from widescreen DVDs.

I know OTA HD shows 1080i or 720p in 16:9 on the display so is it possible my DVD player and Xbox are not sending the correct flags to the TV so it knows the source is 16:9?

Originally posted by TomCat
There are 3 outputs used by Sony on this diagram, and none of them pass digital video for processing. One is digital audio, which goes to a outboard DAC and then to an analog switch and a second switch (the counterpart of the analog video switcher). The Y Pr Pb or YUV output goes to the analog video switcher mod, and the digital output goes to HDCP processing only. It's only function is to look for HDCP key validation and to shut down the analog video at the output of the analog switcher if the HDCP keys are not valid, as part of DRM. While the digital output is used for this, digital video itself is not processed.

The 9993 has digital video out, but Sony chooses not to use it...

Well, you have the diagram and I don't. I think what you're referring to is not in the .jpg you posted. I have no reason to doubt what you're saying.

If what you say above is accurate, then it is in fact analog output. However, lets be clear about 2 things though:
1. YUV does not indicate analog. It is only YUV that is clearly marked, not "analog" on the diagram.
2. The Sil 9993 does output digital, which was not originally evident to me.

Thanks for posting all the info, and responding to my many questions.

E

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
Well, you have the diagram and I don't. I think what you're referring to is not in the .jpg you posted. I have no reason to doubt what you're saying.

If what you say above is accurate, then it is in fact analog output. However, lets be clear about 2 things though:
1. YUV does not indicate analog. It is only YUV that is clearly marked, not "analog" on the diagram.
2. The Sil 9993 does output digital, which was not originally evident to me.

Thanks for posting all the info, and responding to my many questions.

E

In the schematic for the 'P' board
The output from the SiI9993 is clearly labeled YPrPb.
The digital output pins on the SiI9993 are not connected.

Originally posted by Andrew535
In the schematic for the 'P' board
The output from the SiI9993 is clearly labeled YPrPb.
The digital output pins on the SiI9993 are not connected.


Thanks. By the schematic you mean in the Service Manual? I don't have one, and was referring to the link for the .jpg file.

Now, for something completely different.......

I'm nearing the end of my 30 day "evaluation period" on my 55WF. So, do I keep it or trade it in, thats the question. Sometimes I'm watching something and I have to say "Wow, what a picture" other times it's "Ugh..." Is this pretty much par for the course?

I find if the blacks bars are at the sides or at the top and bottom, I'm OK with them, but letterbox is a whole new ballgame. I just don't like it, especially when the scene (showing) is darker than the bars (the bars tend to "glow").

I never could see much of a difference between DLP and this set. I saw it next to a Samsung. Even asked the salesman to point out the difference, but He said they were "subtle". No flame wars, please, I'm only stating what I saw. Perhaps, the difference shows up at home? I am working on a different lighting scheme for my room. This set can be very bright (all white scenes are quite illuminating....)

To move up (?) to the SX version would cost me over $650. Not sure if that would be a good move..............

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone has had these same thoughts.........

Originally posted by NoPlasmaYet
Now, for something completely different.......

I'm nearing the end of my 30 day "evaluation period" on my 55WF. So, do I keep it or trade it in, thats the question. Sometimes I'm watching something and I have to say "Wow, what a picture" other times it's "Ugh..." Is this pretty much par for the course?



I would say it depends on how much HD material you watch now, and how much you plan to watch in the next 10 years?

With my 60XS I have found that HD material is so awesome I'm watching it just because it looks so good. Standard def programs and video games are good enough, and DVDs range from slightly disappointing (The Godfather) to very nice (The Return of the King). There are a couple features I wish the set had, but I wouldn't trade this set for the world!

Hello... I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed a gray vertical shadow on their Sony. I typically find this shadow towards the upper center of the screen, whether the TV is on or off. I have noticed it on Sony's at Circuit City and Best Buy.

I didn't think anything of it until my new Sony arrived and now I'm wondering if it is a defect or if it is inherent in all of these sets. The TV hasn't even been plugged in and I think that I can make out this grayish shadow...

Has anyonse else seen something similar? Can you please check? Please advise.

Thank you for your time.

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
Thanks. By the schematic you mean in the Service Manual? I don't have one, and was referring to the link for the .jpg file.

Yes. The schematic for the P board is included when you buy the Service Manual.

Originally posted by NoPlasmaYet
Now, for something completely different.......

I'm OK with them, but letterbox is a whole new ballgame. I just don't like it, especially when the scene (showing) is darker than the bars (the bars tend to "glow").



Why not use Zoom?



I never could see much of a difference between DLP and this set. I saw it next to a Samsung. Even asked the salesman to point out the difference, but He said they were "subtle".
To move up (?) to the SX version would cost me over $650. Not sure if that would be a good move..............

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone has had these same thoughts.........


If I didn't see the rainbows we would have gotten the Samsung over the Sony. Samsung had better User Menu color settings. Sony has better sound. We spent a long time looking at our Sony and a Sammy side by side. PQ differences are subtle and it really is personal preference. Both sets have their quirks.

Grand Wegas are assembled in the USA.

XS vs WF? This may start a flame war. XS has better sound, a few usefull User Menu settings and a styling change. PQ is about the same. You should look closely at what else there is at that price point.

Originally posted by portugal11
...Has anyone else seen something similar? Can you please check? Please advise. Thank you for your time.

Yes, I thought it was lighting in my home at first. I think I read elsewhere around AVS it had something to do with the cabinet, or reflecting light from or in it. I've stopped worrying about it, along with everything else with this set.

Thank you for your response IamtheWolf! I thought it was only me!

Do you know where I can find those threads you are referring to? My searches do not seem to turn up anything...

Thanks again!!!

Originally posted by Andrew535
If I didn't see the rainbows we would have gotten the Samsung over the Sony. Samsung had better User Menu color settings. Sony has better sound. We spent a long time looking at our Sony and a Sammy side by side. PQ differences are subtle and it really is personal preference. Both sets have their quirks.

[/B]

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. I have been using the zoom, but sometimes the picture looks better smaller.

I agree the picture differences were subtle, at least in the store. I don't understand why the borders are not made as dark as possible. I watched Spiderman 2 (not in HD) and there is a scene where a car is thrown through a window. The car looked very black to me, so good blacks are possible.

As far as price point go, I would have a hard time getting a price anywhere close to the deal received from Sears on another TV. My timing must have been real good (that day).....

Originally posted by NoPlasmaYet
Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. I have been using the zoom, but sometimes the picture looks better smaller.

I agree the picture differences were subtle, at least in the store. I don't understand why the borders are not made as dark as possible. I watched Spiderman 2 (not in HD) and there is a scene where a car is thrown through a window. The car looked very black to me, so good blacks are possible.

As far as price point go, I would have a hard time getting a price anywhere close to the deal received from Sears on another TV. My timing must have been real good (that day).....



When we got to day 25 on our 50WE655 my wife and I joked about trading down to a small CRT. We 've only gone out to one movie since we got the Grand Wega. We are happy with what we have and the price we paid.

We allways zoom letterboxed SD. Or go find the same program on HD.
The grey bars may be in the source. I've read that broadcasters add grey instead of black to reduce image burn-in on plasma displays. In that case there isn't much you can do about it.
I find the moving color graphic pillar box bars far more annoying. I suppose Plasma Owners are less annoyed.

Originally posted by NoPlasmaYet
Now, for something completely different.......

I'm nearing the end of my 30 day "evaluation period" on my 55WF. So, do I keep it or trade it in, thats the question. Sometimes I'm watching something and I have to say "Wow, what a picture" other times it's "Ugh..." Is this pretty much par for the course?

NPY,

If you are in search of the perfect HDTV then only you can answer your question. To me like many other things, "it is all in the eyes of the beholder". For me I have never looked back. My 55WF satisfies all of my expectations in today's technology for the money spent. I am not sure what would motivate me to box this monster up and bring in another for a trial period. I did plenty of research in advance of my purchse including viewing different sets and in the eye of this beholder the 55WF gave me the best results for the money spent.

Take care

Originally posted by Mtnmike
NPY,

If you are in search of the perfect HDTV then only you can answer your question. To me like many other things, "it is all in the eyes of the beholder". For me I have never looked back. My 55WF satisfies all of my expectations in today's technology for the money spent. I am not sure what would motivate me to box this monster up and bring in another for a trial period. I did plenty of research in advance of my purchse including viewing different sets and in the eye of this beholder the 55WF gave me the best results for the money spent.

Take care

Mike, I could not have said it better myself. I don't even go to the tv areas anymore to see what is there. I, also, have the 55WF and am very happy. Took me a long time to pull the trigger, but when I did I knew it was the right tv for me. Rich

Originally posted by lynns_rich
Mike, I could not have said it better myself. I don't even go to the tv areas anymore to see what is there. I, also, have the 55WF and am very happy. Took me a long time to pull the trigger, but when I did I knew it was the right tv for me. Rich

Sign me up as another extremely satisfied 55WF owner, who got a steal with this set. Worth every penny...

I "traded up" this past weekend (within the 30 day trial period) from a 50WE to a 55WF. Once I set it up I had a worse picture than I had ever seen on the 50WE. It was SD, but somewhat wavy and blurry. I saw in one of the menus a "C" [cable] with the description that I had not seen on the 50E. I thought, Oh S***, I made a mistake and should have kept what I had and liked. Then I went to the owner's manual (yeah, it does get used sometimes) and figured out that I was looking at a coaxial feed from my Dish. I switched to the s-video feed and it was as good as the 50WE.
Two things occurred to me as a result: some people who are unhappy with the SD (which is admittedly not great) may not be utilizing the best inputs, and the manual can be very helpful. (No, I don't stop to ask for directions when I'm driving, either.)

I personally use the XS955's built-in ATSC tuner with the coax cable fed directly into the TV (or OTA coax directly into the TV). This usually gives the best performance, as most STBs are inferior to the Sony's scaler/tuner capabilities.

I, like most of the GWIV owners, feel that SD is better-than-expected. In fact, for me, the good digital SD broadcasts are DVD (if not better) quality.

After several months of reading, till my eyes crossed, I finally pulled the pen and signed on the line.

My many thanks to all of the folks that have attempted vicariously to make this an educated purchase.

I purchased my set at S*ars, with a price match from CC, that hasn't has any sx955s in a month, but still ran them on sale. I ended up going with the 60 rather than my first choice of the 55. It seemed like the 55 dried up pretty quickly around these parts which allowed me to obtain the 60 at 55 prices. I will admit to being lucky till the prices go down in 31 days.

I promise I'll read the archives thoroughly before I embarrass myself with a stupid previously answered question and pester you with you top secret set settings.

NOT!

Put me in coach I'm ready to play.

Thanks big time,

Norm

Squawks Wrote:

I, like most of the GWIV owners, feel that SD is better-than-expected. In fact, for me, the good digital SD broadcasts are DVD (if not better) quality.

I completely agree. All my SD is viewed via D* and it varies. Man some of the feed is really nice (DVD quality) other channels at times are basically crap but still pretty good "better than expected" for a 55" HDTV. All in all this is a fine TV. As time marches on more and more HD will be broadcast as it becomes the norm. That's why we bought these sets isn't it? Anyway I am a satisfied customer.

I know this has been mentioned here(somewhere in the hundreds of post) but has anyone confimed the problem or issue with the input screen coming on for no reason? Is it something that I should be concerned about

KDF-60WF655 - DVD Movies Display's Input Menu During Playback.

I also have this issue.

I have my DVD hooked up via component to video input#6 and I have encountered a problem occurring during movie playback in that the tv will display the input on the screen. By input I mean "Video 6", " Full Screen" etc... Within the past few weeks I personally have seen this happen on three different movies.

I played three DVD's last night and I did not see the problem. Is problem being caused by the source DVD and that the TV is just sensitive. Either way this is really a nuisance when your in the middle of a movie and the input display pops up on screen.

I am using component on Video 6 and was wondering if anyone has experienced this issue on any other inputs.


Has anyone experienced this issue and if so what can be done about it.

Thanks,
DA

Originally posted by BOTTLEDZ28
I know this has been mentioned here(somewhere in the hundreds of post) but has anyone confimed the problem or issue with the input screen coming on for no reason? Is it something that I should be concerned about
Yeah, a lot of us have this happen. In addition, I find that if I'm watching 4:3 content, the wide mode changes back to the default. (I only notice the wide mode changing if I actually change it from the default setting which isn't very often.)

I really hope Sony makes it easy to upgrade the firmware. Maybe if someone gets it on a memory stick they can make the file available for download to others. :)

Originally posted by drwtsn32
Yeah, a lot of us have this happen. In addition, I find that if I'm watching 4:3 content, the wide mode changes back to the default. (I only notice the wide mode changing if I actually change it from the default setting which isn't very often.)

I really hope Sony makes it easy to upgrade the firmware. Maybe if someone gets it on a memory stick they can make the file available for download to others. :)

Yea I see this issue also when I am watching my TWC box. Is there any resolution for this?

well, my50" has not done it in a few days but it DID do it whith doth the DVD player(component hookup) and IIRC while watching SD cable TV programs. Im gonna start keeping a data log of whenit does it once I get my new DVD player. thats only if it continues.