PS after seeing Travler's HT I defer! :D

OK. It definitely shows BTB.

everyone is a little bit edgy today :p

thats good that it does, How do you like it so far?

I definitely like it. The picture is very good even though I have been spoiled by HDTV via satellite. The quality of the image is not as good as HD but it is better than what I had on my Bravo D2. I have it connected vis DVI to an HS10 and had to spend a little time recalibrating the HS10 but now that I have it's very nice.

Oh, I almost forgot. I finally got to hear my one and only DVD-Audio disc and that was awesome! I'm tempted to get a SACD or two now and see if I can tell the difference.

You also need to try dvd audio or sacd, it is a great player and im sure the sound is a big step up also.

Yes dvd audio is awesome, cds sound great also.

Hi there,

different topic, which I already posted a couple of days ago under the MR thread but got no answer there - perhaps you can help me or reference a link which helps me:

Just installed the new MR FW from avformus.com. The immediate change I saw is that I now have DVD-A menus via DVI- which I didn't have with the -5 version. But I have a problem as well.
I am running the picture through DVI into my Panny TH-42PHD6UY. Before I installed the new update I had in the 480/576p mode white flashes going through the picture when i was watching PAL region 2 stuff. This was unbearable but it was not there when I watched it with 720p.
Now with the new update I don't have the white flashes anymore but I am randomly losing the picture totally :-( (in 480/576 mode with e.g Indiana Jones PAL). Again 720p works normal. Anybody experiencing the same problem? I have to admit as well that I am using a dirt cheap DVI cable (15$) which is 2 meters long.

let me know what you think

:confused:

traveler:

don't know what music you like but for DVD-A get the new SEAL IV
For SACD get the new Elton John "Peachtree road" or Sting "brand new day". DVD - A Eagels "hotel California" is also a winner - but really depends what music you like - I think the sound is awesome

traveler,

Take a listen to the Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD (performed by Cincinnati Pops Orchestra) made by Telarc :D

-- loeric

Originally posted by traveler
Oh, I almost forgot. I finally got to hear my one and only DVD-Audio disc and that was awesome! I'm tempted to get a SACD or two now and see if I can tell the difference.

If ya can't you are deaf!! :D

and Gaucho by Steely Dan

This 6609-A, it's the same as 6609-9, correct, (well, except its not multiregion), except there's a "second' upgrade, right?

Anyone know what the differences are between 9 and A ?

OK, so this macro blocking term gets thrown around on this thread quite a bit, but I don't have a solid understanding what macro blocking actually looks like.

Examples of movies and specific chapters that exhibit the problem, along with a description of what to look for would be helpful.

In a related matter, what effect does the inability to pass BTB have on actual picture quality (not just the VE pluge test pattern)?

Thanks in advance.

- Tim

Hi,

my unit was manufactured in Jan 2005 and I have one outline circle and one filled circle. Any idea what that means with BTB?

Regards,
Thomas

michidragon,

Update -A fixes 2 issues, as per the instructions which come with it. See earlier in this thread. It does have two files (requiring 2 CD-ROMs), contrary to the previous updates which had only one. It is not MR.

I have installed it without problems and have not seen any difference yet. I have the slight green push many others have talked about, but this is easily fixed using one of the picture adjustments.

Paul.

Originally posted by loeric
traveler,

Take a listen to the Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD (performed by Cincinnati Pops Orchestra) made by Telarc :D

-- loeric

Second that, but be careful, I lost a driver on an energy veritas with the digital canons.

Allen

Originally posted by mr.pink
Hi,

my unit was manufactured in Jan 2005 and I have one outline circle and one filled circle. Any idea what that means with BTB?

Half fixed? :)

OK I ordered several SACDs and a couple more DVD-A titles. After I get them I'll let you know which I think sounds best.

Originally posted by traveler
OK I ordered several SACDs and a couple more DVD-A titles. After I get them I'll let you know which I think sounds best.
I think you'll find they both sound excellent, and that which sounds better depends on the remastering job on the individual disc (some SACDs sound better than some DVD-As, and vice versa).

Originally posted by hifisponge
OK, so this macro blocking term gets thrown around on this thread quite a bit, but I don't have a solid understanding what macro blocking actually looks like.

Examples of movies and specific chapters that exhibit the problem, along with a description of what to look for would be helpful.

In a related matter, what effect does the inability to pass BTB have on actual picture quality (not just the VE pluge test pattern)?

Thanks in advance.

- Tim

Here's some pics I found in other MB threads, you'll notice the blotchiness in what should otherwise be a solid uniform color. There are more pics in some of the other threads on the subject, these are what I could find from a previous post.

The first two, I'm not sure what movie they are from. The second two are from the Usual Suspects. There is also a pic floating around on this forum somewhere from Monsters Inc which gives a very good look at the problem.
Another good one is the scene in Kill Bill 2 when Uma was buried alive.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/stmb.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/mbpic.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/USMB2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/USMB.jpg

Here's some threads that go into detail about the issue, there are more than what I listed here, but these should give you an idea what "macroblocking" is. The 5900 thread probably has the most detailed info.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451561
The Denon 3910 and Macroblocking - AVS Forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=446128
FORGET the Denon 3910 -- still has MACROBLOCKING! - AVS Forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=330006&perpage=20&pagenumber=11
Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - AVS Forum

Additionally, I noticed this post by Stacey Spears the other day and have asked for a clarification as to what he meant by the problem being fixed in a later revision of the Faroudja chip.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5468747#post5468747
help me find Macroblocking on FLI2300 - AVS Forum

What is "BTB" an anagram for? I know it means "below black," but there's that "T" throwing me off.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by pepar
What is "BTB" an anagram for? I know it means "below black," but there's that "T" throwing me off.

:rolleyes:

Actually it stands for Blacker Than Black.

BTB = Blacker Then Black

Originally posted by keenan
Here's some pics I found in other MB threads, you'll notice the blotchiness in what should otherwise be a solid uniform color. There are more pics in some of the other threads on the subject, these are what I could find from a previous post.



Many (if not all) of these artifacts stem from poor MPEG encoding.

Someone on another thread gave the example of the scene in I, Robot where Will Smith gets out of bed. The theory is that the blockness on the green wall behind him is related to FL2310 MB. Not true, IMO. I tried it with my 3910, and I do see minimal blockiness. I switched to interlaced mode, and the problem still exists.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
Actually it stands for Blacker Than Black.

But of course. Thx.

I'd be happy if I could get my HS20 to pass B instead of GTB. :)

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
Many (if not all) of these artifacts stem from poor MPEG encoding.

Someone on another thread gave the example of the scene in I, Robot where Will Smith gets out of bed. The theory is that the blockness on the green wall behind him is related to FL2310 MB. Not true, IMO. I tried it with my 3910, and I do see minimal blockiness. I switched to interlaced mode, and the problem still exists.

No, they are not the best examples but I got tired of looking through the massive MB thead...:p

Also,
The MPAA warning is full of MPEG errors as well...check that one under interlaced.

Dave

Originally posted by traveler
OK I ordered several SACDs and a couple more DVD-A titles. After I get them I'll let you know which I think sounds best.

Try here as a great source:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

Allen

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Also,
The MPAA warning is full of MPEG errors as well...check that one under interlaced.

Dave

Dave, did you see in that other thread where SS says that the problem was fixed? Have you heard anything about that?

Travler -

DVDA and SACD are both great formats, but with all due respect, its unlikely that you'll be able to draw any meaningful conclusion regarding the differences in sound quality between the two. The quality of the recording and the skill of the sound engineer will play greater roles on the sound quality than the format its self. Even if you were able to find the same recording on the two different formats, the mastering engineer is unlikely to be the same.

In the end, it doesn't matter which sounds better, because you can take your pick.

Happy listening!

- Tim

Originally posted by keenan
Dave, did you see in that other thread where SS says that the problem was fixed? Have you heard anything about that?

That's the first I have heard of it. If it is fixed, they why are other players with that chip still having MB problems?

You got me...see his response here...my suspicion is that it was a recent production line change and it may not be in any players currently on the market yet...but that is pure speculation on my part..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5490290#post5490290
help me find Macroblocking on FLI2300 - AVS Forum

Keenan -

Thank you very much for the informative response to my question about macroblocking. Earlier in this thread, I described a problem I'm seeing in dark areas of certain movies that seems related to macroblocking. I work in the video game industry and the terms used to describe what I'm seeing are "color banding" or "posterizing". "Banding" is when there are distinct bands of color where there should be a smooth gradation from one color to the next. This is a compression artifact.

It's fairly rare that the problem shows up when watching movies on the 3910, but when it does, it's obvious. The banding present in some movies looks like a MGPEG compression artifact, but at the same time it seems like the 3910 is contributing to the problem. I haven't experienced this problem with the previous progressive scan player I owned.

Has anyone else noticed color banding in chapter 16, "Scuba Diving", in the movie "After the Sunset"?

BTW - has anyone had success in getting a response from Denon's technical support? I've e-mailed them probably 5 times with no response. . . none . . . ever.

Cheers,

- Tim

Originally posted by Allen
Try here as a great source:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

Allen,
Yup, that's where I got them. Just did a search for SACD titles and that one showed up. I get all my DVDs from deepdiscountdvd.com but they don't have any SACDs.

Originally posted by traveler
Allen,
Yup, that's where I got them. Just did a search for SACD titles and that one showed up. I get all my DVDs from deepdiscountdvd.com but they don't have any SACDs.

So true. Deepdiscountdvd.com has DVD-As and deepdiscountcd.com has SACDs (http://www.deepdiscountcd.com/index.cfm?request=/search.cfm?album=sacd).

If there is a new silicon rev of the FL2310 out there, I would hope Denon would come up with some sort of an upgrade program that would allow existing owners of the 3910/5900 etc to get their units upgraded or replaced with ones featuring the fixed chips.

I bet its a recent silicon fix that is not in any existing player.

sorry - was sent twice

against all advice - I purchased the 3910 yesterday (firmware 6609-9) and connected it to my panasonic pw6. May I tell you that there is no MB to speak of (compared personally to panasonic s97 and denon 2910 it has NONE), that it upscales over component (720p seems best) and shows the pluge signal (Blacker than black). it produces the most beautiful pictures I have seen on my panny and I am very happy indeed. Don't like the pictures out of dvi much - slightly odd looking in tone and textures, so I've only got it connected component.
after a long and sometimes painful search for the perfect dvd-player -I can now recommend the 3910 even to those with the panny pw6.
kind regards
thomas

Originally posted by thomas sturm
against all advice - I purchased the 3910 yesterday (firmware 6609-9) and connected it to my panasonic pw6. May I tell you that there is no MB to speak of (compared personally to panasonic s97 and denon 2910 it has NONE), that it upscales over component (720p seems best) and shows the pluge signal (Blacker than black). it produces the most beautiful pictures I have seen on my panny and I am very happy indeed.
after a long and sometimes painful search for the perfect dvd-player -I can now recommend the 3910 even to those with the panny pw6.
kind regards
thomas

I'm with you , thomas, but the very nature of these forums is that the majority of the posts are re problems. And by our human nature, we always are more vocal when we have problems. I know that when I'm happy with a component - and my system - I am enjoying it and not clacking away at my keyboard.

Just curious: What was the advice against it? And did they have a recommended unit to buy instead?

that it upscales over component (720p seems best)WHAT????????????
I never even tried mine to see if it would do that!

Holy Sheet! If the 3910 does upconvert over component, it will give the Oppo a run for its' money. ;)

It does not upconvert over component. The poster is probably thinking it does since you do have the option on the remote to set 720P, but that only affects the DVI output, not the component.

Dave

the 3910 up-converts to 720p and 1080i over component with the firmware 6609-9 from February 2005 - I've got the thing in front of me and I am not imagining things.
the advice against it had to do with MB - one can read everywhere, that panasonic plasmas show up the MB, so it was best to buy a pioneer instead; and having personally tried the s97 and dvd2910 I know all about bad macroblocking on my panny - but the 3910 shows minimal MB, which gives the secrets-review 10 out of 10 in my book for saying it month ago: for a faroudja-based player the 3910 has the smallest amount of MB, and the picture on my panasonic pw6 over component in 720p is fantastic.
very kind regards
thomas

Thomas,
Where did you get the firmware from? Was it preloaded on you player?

Dave

Crap... mine doesn't upconvert via component. :(

How do we find out what version firmware our 3910s have on it again? I went back and read a half dozen pages in this thread but couldn't find it again.... I should have written it down somewhere. ;)

Even without looking, I think I have the same version as thomas since I downloaded it and installed it a few weeks ago.

Thomas,
Does your 3910's box have the two filled in circles under the serial number?

Maybe the Denon fix for BTB activates upconversion via component??? :D

Thomas How are you confirming it is upconv over componet? by the TV? the dvd player or how?

How do we find out what version firmware our 3910s have on it again?
(1) Remove any disk from the 3910
(2) Power the 3910 off with the main power button (NOT the standby button).
(3) While holding down the play and open/close buttons, power on the 3910 (with the main power button)
(4) With the remote, enter "3265"
(5) With the remote, each time you press menu, a new number will be shown on the display ("called out" in Denon lingo) --- for a total of six numbers.
(6) To go back to normal mode, turn the player off by the main power button (NOT the standby button) and then back on.

thanks Pedro... this time, I printed it out. :)

Originally posted by merc
Crap... mine doesn't upconvert via component. :(

How do we find out what version firmware our 3910s have on it again? I went back and read a half dozen pages in this thread but couldn't find it again.... I should have written it down somewhere. ;)

Even without looking, I think I have the same version as thomas since I downloaded it and installed it a few weeks ago.

Thomas,
Does your 3910's box have the two filled in circles under the serial number?

Maybe the Denon fix for BTB activates upconversion via component??? :D

Up-convert over component will never happen on a US Denon player. Thomas' player may do it because it's an overseas player, but I rather doubt that it is doing as he says it is.

Originally posted by thomas sturm
against all advice - I purchased the 3910 yesterday (firmware 6609-9) and connected it to my panasonic pw6. May I tell you that there is no MB to speak of (compared personally to panasonic s97 and denon 2910 it has NONE), that it upscales over component (720p seems best) and shows the pluge signal (Blacker than black). it produces the most beautiful pictures I have seen on my panny and I am very happy indeed. Don't like the pictures out of dvi much - slightly odd looking in tone and textures, so I've only got it connected component.
after a long and sometimes painful search for the perfect dvd-player -I can now recommend the 3910 even to those with the panny pw6.
kind regards
thomas

Glad you like the video but just give the audio its chance and then look out!!! (or should I say "listen" out!! :D)

my 3910 was bought yesterday in a german hifi-shop with the firmware -9 preloaded - I find it quite amusing, that some of you are trying to make me look stupid. the story goes: I went to a denon specialist shop (Radio Körner) in dresden to buy the a1xv (5910); was not that impressed with what I saw. Mr. Körner then told me, that on new 3910s the upscaler worked over component as well and that in a future upgrade the 5910 would do the same. So I went and bought the 3910 on his say and checked it at home - it ís true, the 3910 new April 2005 upscales over component, selectable on the remote control, to 480p/576p, 720p and 1080i; it even says it on the frontdisplay. and it shows blacker than black and has the smallest amount of MB I've seen on a faroudja-based player. anyone interested can have the "3910 firmware 6609-9 regionfree" e-mailed, if you have a look for it at the german website www.hifi-forum.de . whether it is compatible with northamerican players I cannot say.
Give me some credit, guys.
kind regards
thomas

Sorry to be a doubting thomas (no pun intended) but Thomas: Mine *says* it on the front panel, but my projecter reports what it's getting. And it's not getting 720p, even though the 3910 *says* that's what it's sending. Does your display report the details about the input including resolution and refresh rate, or are you taking the 3910's front panel's word for it? What display are you using that allows you to tell?

The Denon 3910 does not upscale through component, period.

Originally posted by thomas sturm
my 3910 was bought yesterday in a german hifi-shop with the firmware -9 preloaded - I find it quite amusing, that some of you are trying to make me look stupid. the story goes: I went to a denon specialist shop (Radio Körner) in dresden to buy the a1xv (5910); was not that impressed with what I saw. Mr. Körner then told me, that on new 3910s the upscaler worked over component as well and that in a future upgrade the 5910 would do the same. So I went and bought the 3910 on his say and checked it at home - it ís true, the 3910 new April 2005 upscales over component, selectable on the remote control, to 480p/576p, 720p and 1080i; it even says it on the frontdisplay. and it shows blacker than black and has the smallest amount of MB I've seen on a faroudja-based player. anyone interested can have the "3910 firmware 6609-9 regionfree" e-mailed, if you have a look for it at the german website www.hifi-forum.de . whether it is compatible with northamerican players I cannot say.
Give me some credit, guys.
kind regards
thomas

There are two kinds of 3910 owners on this thread right now, thomas: Those who are happy with their units and those who are checking their passports and flights on Luftansa.

and the picture on my panasonic pw6 over component in 720p is fantastic Thomas,
I'm very interested in your findings.
Having a PW6 Pana plasma and a 3910 I would like to try it out, after updating the firmware.
However on my plasma I can't find info about frequency (resolution) on the menus.
On the RGB (VGA) input my plasma shows H/V frequency info not on the component input.
Am I doing something wrong or is there another way to verify the resolution I'm getting on my plasma?
Just would like to be certain that I'm indeed receiving 720p over component.

Thanks

Hello.I tried this out on my 3910 with the same software Thomas is using.As I'm living in Europe I thought I would test it.Indeed the frontpanel says 720P and the picture is fine but my Plus Piano HE 3100 can't show progressive signals.....
Tried all resolutions and they all looked the same.Well,it was worth a try...

by going in to the service menu of the panasonic pw6 I now discovered, that the tv shows 525p in ntsc, whether the denons frontdisplay shows 720p or 1080i - well, sorry I'm mistaken (and so is that denon specialist) about the upscaling feature. the uproar I've caused has been quite unbelievable. all other claims are nevertheless true; you can all now have a laugh at the wanker who did not see that there was no upscaling! over dvi the upscaling works (the tv shows it, but only in the service mode) but has no positive effects on the picture (on the pw6). it's late and I'm going to bed. no vorsprung durch technik after all. cancel the lufthansa flights, please!
thomas

Thomas,

thanks for letting us know.
It doesn't change the fact that one can get a very good PQ driving the PW6 with the 3910 at 480p through component.
It would be really nice though if Denon would let us use the upscaling function though component.

Originally posted by PedroV
Thomas,

It would be really nice though if Denon would let us use the upscaling function though component.
It's not going to happen with Denon or any other major brand.

Thomas - you are too funny - fair play to you - it was worth a shot and Lufthansa might have a lot of cancellations lately...

Enjoy your 3910 and give the music (DVD-A, SACD) a shot as well - you will not regret it

Is it true that firmware 9 is now available for my 3910?

What does it offer?

Yes, it is available in the US

from previously in the thread:

New firmwares now available on the Denon site for the 3910

ESS-6609-A and SYS-6767-4

1. Corrects blinking IEEE-1394 indicator and sound interuptions after power cycle

2. General video improvement


BTW, i'd still love to know what a power cycle is???? SOMEONE has to know around here! :)

Thanks

Originally posted by Krazykaj

BTW, i'd still love to know what a power cycle is???? SOMEONE has to know around here! :)

Thanks

Well, a power cycle would be when the unit is shutdown completely and then powered back up again. Maybe it loses the handshake with the recv/pre-pro.

Had 3910 3 months with no problems. Now getting colored blocks in random sections of movies. Never in same spot of movie or same spot of screen. Using HDMI connection. any ideas? thanks

Chic:

I am afraid I don't offer a solution but wanted to say that I had similar behavior on my 3910 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=492822&highlight=jigesh) via component; and luckily it happened within its return period - so I got it exchanged for a new one. I am not sure, if in your case shorter cable length would help or not.

I just upgraded to firmware 9, and now I have now picture or sound. Please help me!!!!!!!

Originally posted by kaduku
I just upgraded to firmware 9, and now I have now picture or sound. Please help me!!!!!!!

Could you please be a little more precise about your DVD player status? Do you now have either picture or sound, or no picture and no sound?
Did you do the firmware update properly? Has anything strange happened during firmware update? Which cables did you connect?

Regards,
Thomas

Originally posted by mr.pink
Could you please be a little more precise about your DVD player status? Do you now have either picture or sound, or no picture and no sound?
Did you do the firmware update properly? Has anything strange happened during firmware update? Which cables did you connect?

Regards,
Thomas

Thanks for responding so fast. I feel really stupid. I forgot to turn on the HDMI. Everything works now.

Originally posted by kaduku
Thanks for responding so fast. I feel really stupid. I forgot to turn on the HDMI. Everything works now.

Been there. Done that. :)

don't feel stupid. I have a loaner 2910 while they fix my BTB issue on my 3910. After I plugged hooked up the 2910 via HDMI I had no picture or sound and after swearing for a while I then remembered to turn HDMI on!!! :D

Originally posted by mismatched
don't feel stupid. I have a loaner 2910 while they fix my BTB issue on my 3910. After I plugged hooked up the 2910 via HDMI I had no picture or sound and after swearing for a while I then remembered to turn HDMI on!!! :D

Speaking of BTB, I know that to find out if your unit does BTB is with software like DVE. Besides that, how can I tell by viewing the picture. Tell you the truth, I don't even know what BTB is or does, besides it standing for blacker than black. Was the PQ better after you're BTB was addressed? Does firmware 9 fix BTB? I'm not sure also when my unit was built, but I did purchase in December 04.

Originally posted by kaduku
Speaking of BTB, I know that to find out if your unit does BTB is with software like DVE. Besides that, how can I tell by viewing the picture. Tell you the truth, I don't even know what BTB is or does, besides it standing for blacker than black. Was the PQ better after you're BTB was addressed? Does firmware 9 fix BTB? I'm not sure also when my unit was built, but I did purchase in December 04.

I don't think any firmware that is user-installable fixes the BTB issue. My unit passed below black right out of the box, so I've not been bedeviled like some on this thread. But as the adjustments basically make "black" as black as our PJs can do (read: minimum light output) below black, for me and my HS20, has no great importance. In short, you can't view movies and determine if you're doing BTB.

pepar is correct that firmware will not fix the BTB problem. You have to send in your player to Denon, which several of us have already done.

Now, will the fix make improve my player's PQ??

Don't know what to expect because I have received mixed opinions. However, at least I will know that if a movie entitled "Beyond the Black Hole" does ever come out I will have the best front row seat!! :D

Originally posted by mismatched
pepar is correct that firmware will not fix the BTB problem. You have to send in your player to Denon, which several of us have already done.

Now, will the fix make improve my player's PQ??

Don't know what to expect because I have received mixed opinions. However, at least I will know that if a movie entitled "Beyond the Black Hole" does ever come out I will have the best front row seat!! :D

So how can I tell without using a DVE disc?
Also how long is the Denon warranty again? I bought mine in Dec 04.

Thx in advance :D

Kaduku

DVE will work and perhaps the THX deal on some movie DVDs??? but not the basic Avia disk.

what is your unit's build date? Sept onward all appear to have the problem. Aug is mixed. June and July 04 were okay for BTB.

Denon warranty is 2 years if you bought from a Denon authorized dealer!

Originally posted by kaduku
I just upgraded to firmware 9, and now I have now picture or sound. Please help me!!!!!!!

It's possible that upgrading the firmware resulted in your 3910 going back to its default settings. You may want to review your setup settings to make sure they are correct.

Originally posted by mismatched
pepar is correct that firmware will not fix the BTB problem. You have to send in your player to Denon, which several of us have already done.

Now, will the fix make improve my player's PQ??

Don't know what to expect because I have received mixed opinions. However, at least I will know that if a movie entitled "Beyond the Black Hole" does ever come out I will have the best front row seat!! :D

That'll be a Disney/Russ Meyer production.

Originally posted by mismatched

Denon warranty is 2 years if you bought from a Denon authorized dealer!

Warranty is only 1 year on DVD players, 2 years on most other Denon products.

oops I stand corrected!

I would like to add a small flip down LCD monitor for viewing/navigating DVD-A menu titles so I don't have to crank up the Sammy DLP. Does anyone know if you can still get video output from component or s-video if the player is set for DVI without having to switch the 3910 out of DVI mode?

I would try it but my 3910 is on its way to NJ :)

TIA

Originally posted by jazzcat
I would like to add a small flip down LCD monitor for viewing/navigating DVD-A menu titles so I don't have to crank up the Sammy DLP. Does anyone know if you can still get video output from component or s-video if the player is set for DVI without having to switch the 3910 out of DVI mode?

I would try it but my 3910 is on its way to NJ :)

TIA

That's what I do. I use composite and route everything through my pre/pro so it switches easier. I will have my 3910 back from Modwright on Friday hopefully. I will double check at that time if you do not yet have an answer.

Any opinions on firmware 9. I upgraded yesterday, and not sure about any differences on PQ. I did watch Spanglish on my Qualia 006, and the transfer was pretty good.

Originally posted by jazzcat
I would like to add a small flip down LCD monitor for viewing/navigating DVD-A menu titles so I don't have to crank up the Sammy DLP. Does anyone know if you can still get video output from component or s-video if the player is set for DVI without having to switch the 3910 out of DVI mode?

I would try it but my 3910 is on its way to NJ :)

TIA

I feed a flat panel computer/multimedia monitor an s-video signal while my HS20 gets a DVI signal. Works great!

pepar, thanks for the information. I'll see what kind of deal I can get on one of those mini DVD monitors.

Be careful jazzcat, they are not all created equal.

I got a cheap 7" one off of ebay and no matter what I did, the image was never clear. Many times it was virtually useless it was so bad. I chucked it into the trash and bought a used 6" alpine off of ebay. Works like a chief!

Originally posted by jazzcat
I would like to add a small flip down LCD monitor for viewing/navigating DVD-A menu titles so I don't have to crank up the Sammy DLP. Does anyone know if you can still get video output from component or s-video if the player is set for DVI without having to switch the 3910 out of DVI mode?

I would try it but my 3910 is on its way to NJ :)

TIA

Greetings,

Mark, I use a 14" Toshiba CRT, mounted on the wall. I have the S Video output on the 3910 routed through my pre/pro to the Toshiba. The monitor works great for DVD A menus, and viewing info from my Tivo.

You can see my setup by visiting my webpage

HERE (http://www.placidman.freeservers.com/photo.html) If you scroll down to the third pic you will see what I mean.


Regards,

Ralph, nice set-up! I am pushing the envelope now with tweaks to our custom HT wall so I don't think the wife will let me hang something from the wall since it is not a dedicated HT room! BTW that SVS sub looks very familiar to me. I have the smaller 25-31 version. :D

Dave, thanks for the heads up on the LCD's. I did see some low priced LCD's on ebay. Some didn't look so well made. I will look for an Alpine since it did the trick for you.

My serial number on my 3910 is 406840XXXX. I am assuming that my built date is June 04. Is this correct?

I also read someplace that earlier built dates did not have any BTB problems. Is this true?

Originally posted by mismatched
Kaduku

DVE will work and perhaps the THX deal on some movie DVDs??? but not the basic Avia disk.

what is your unit's build date? Sept onward all appear to have the problem. Aug is mixed. June and July 04 were okay for BTB.

Denon warranty is 2 years if you bought from a Denon authorized dealer!

Here is where I read this! Is this confirmed that June and July 04 were okay for BTB? My serial # starts with 406.

Originally posted by kaduku
My serial number on my 3910 is 406840XXXX. I am assuming that my built date is June 04. Is this correct?

I also read someplace that earlier built dates did not have any BTB problems. Is this true?

The build date should be clearly marked on a white stamp with black letters on the back of your player. If it is June 04 your unit likely will pass a BTB signal. Have not heard of any June builds that do not!

Originally posted by mismatched
The build date should be clearly marked on a white stamp with black letters on the back of your player. If it is June 04 your unit likely will pass a BTB signal. Have not heard of any June builds that do not!

Yes, it does show June 04 built date. Thanks alot for your help! :D

Originally posted by jazzcat Does anyone know if you can still get video output from component or s-video if the player is set for DVI without having to switch the 3910 out of DVI mode? jazzcat: It's wont' do component and DVI at the same time. Good to know it apparantly will do S-video though per others answers. I have mine hooked directly to my PJ with DVI, and through my B&K receiver with component. I have to turn DVI off on the front panel to get component output :(.

HTH, Scott

Originally posted by GetGray
jazzcat: It's wont' do component and DVI at the same time. Good to know it apparantly will do S-video though per others answers. I have mine hooked directly to my PJ with DVI, and through my B&K receiver with component. I have to turn DVI off on the front panel to get component output :(.

HTH, Scott

It will do DVI and Component at the same time if the component output is set to 'Interlaced' instead of progressive in the setup.

Bill

Thanks for the update guys. I said component but actually meant Composite - that dreaded hi-tech yellow RCA jack :D on the back of cheap 7" LCD screens for watching DVD's in the car. Most of those units come with composite and/or s-video, the latter connection costing a bit more.

I'm having trouble finding a brand of CD-R that the 3910 will read for the -9 fireware update. I've had the following failures so far: Great Quality (GQ) CD-RW 4-10X, Great Quality (GQ) CD-R 16X, Maxell CD-R. I'm always burning at the slow speed, mode/level 1, ISO. What brand works for you???

Originally posted by btiltman It will do DVI and Component at the same time if the component output is set to 'Interlaced' instead of progressive in the setup. Thanks Bill, I'll give that a shot.

Originally posted by gimp
What brand works for you???
I use either Fuji or Memorex (depending on who's got a decent rebate at BB). I've burned all of the updates via Nero 5 and I've never had a problem. Make sure that all of the settings within the recorder are configured per Denon's instructions.

Good Luck!

Jason

Originally posted by gimp
I'm having trouble finding a brand of CD-R that the 3910 will read for the -9 fireware update. What brand works for you??? My wife records local performances and I'm obligated ;) to author and produce them . I learned early on that there is great disparity in CD and DVD quality. Even "name-brand" (i.e. Memorex) DVD discs were really made by off-brand companies that made crap for quality. I use DVDInfoPro to see who really made them. I studied the topic quite a bit and what I found was for DVD-R's TaiyoYuden was *the* brand to get. Once I figured it out, I never had another returned disc of hundreds distributed. I figured if their DVD's were good, it followed their CDR's should be too. So I got them and I use them now, too and have had no issues with them either, and they worked on my Denon firmware update, too. Burned at full speed. A good place to get them is www.rima.com. Sometimes www.meritline.com has them, but Rima always does. Hope that helps.

Originally posted by gimp
I'm having trouble finding a brand of CD-R that the 3910 will read for the -9 fireware update. I've had the following failures so far: Great Quality (GQ) CD-RW 4-10X, Great Quality (GQ) CD-R 16X, Maxell CD-R. I'm always burning at the slow speed, mode/level 1, ISO. What brand works for you???

I doubt it's the media that's giving you problems. Make sure you are using "Disc At Once" setting.

Originally posted by gimp
I'm having trouble finding a brand of CD-R that the 3910 will read for the -9 fireware update. I've had the following failures so far: Great Quality (GQ) CD-RW 4-10X, Great Quality (GQ) CD-R 16X, Maxell CD-R. I'm always burning at the slow speed, mode/level 1, ISO. What brand works for you???

Had a few issues myself till I read the attached link.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm

Not one bad disk since....

Originally posted by gimp
I'm having trouble finding a brand of CD-R that the 3910 will read for the -9 fireware update. I've had the following failures so far: Great Quality (GQ) CD-RW 4-10X, Great Quality (GQ) CD-R 16X, Maxell CD-R. I'm always burning at the slow speed, mode/level 1, ISO. What brand works for you???


Greetings,

I also use Memorex CD-R media and have never had a problem burning any of the firmware updates. I agree that the problem is probably not the media. Double check to ensure that all settings are per Denon's instructions.


Regards,

I just bought the 3910 from a low cost e-tailer, and I'm a little worried after reading the disclaimer on Denon's site about authorized dealers and modified serial numbers. Should the serial number correspond to the date of manufacture? My unit was made in September 2004, but my 10 digit serial number starts with 302xxxxxxx. It is also printed on a white sticker and not directly on the case.

It seems like my number should be 409xxxxxxx. Do I have reason to be concerned?

Thanks,
Chris

Originally posted by wheeler1629
I just bought the 3910 from a low cost e-tailer, and I'm a little worried after reading the disclaimer on Denon's site about authorized dealers and modified serial numbers. Should the serial number correspond to the date of manufacture? My unit was made in September 2004, but my 10 digit serial number starts with 302xxxxxxx. It is also printed on a white sticker and not directly on the case.

It seems like my number should be 409xxxxxxx. Do I have reason to be concerned?

Thanks,
Chris

My manufactured date is on a white sticker as well. Does the serial number on the unit match the one on the box? Also, go to Denon's site and click on "Product Updates." Enter your serial number after selecting the model and see what happens. <shhh>I bought mine on ebay.</shhh>

Hello all My 3910 is conected to my samsung HLN507W via DVI ( I do not have HDMI on the TV)
IF I get a HDMI to DVI converter cable will this inprove picture quality ?~

Originally posted by antman27
Hello all My 3910 is conected to my samsung HLN507W via DVI ( I do not have HDMI on the TV)
IF I get a HDMI to DVI converter cable will this inprove picture quality ?~

There is no reason to use the adapter. Just use DVI - DVI. My HLM507W is the same way. I don't know that using an adapter would actually degrade video, but it certainly won't improve it.

Originally posted by pepar
My manufactured date is on a white sticker as well. Does the serial number on the unit match the one on the box? Also, go to Denon's site and click on "Product Updates." Enter your serial number after selecting the model and see what happens. <shhh>I bought mine on ebay.</shhh>

Hmmm...the box doesn't have a serial number on it. And on the product updates pages on Denon's site it returns "There are no upgrades available..." Did you buy yours from Barney's?

Originally posted by wheeler1629
I just bought the 3910 from a low cost e-tailer, and I'm a little worried after reading the disclaimer on Denon's site about authorized dealers and modified serial numbers. Should the serial number correspond to the date of manufacture? My unit was made in September 2004, but my 10 digit serial number starts with 302xxxxxxx. It is also printed on a white sticker and not directly on the case.

It seems like my number should be 409xxxxxxx. Do I have reason to be concerned?



Yes, you do!!!! My serial number matches the built date on the player. 406XXXXXXX to June 2004. If you are not getting any update availability, then it must be an older unit that's not setup to receive updates. I would personally return the unit immediately. Sometimes paying the full price is necessary, so to get peace of mind. Heck, you've spent literally thousands on your HT, what's another thousand. Just make sure you get one that passes BTB.

Originally posted by antman27
Hello all My 3910 is conected to my samsung HLN507W via DVI ( I do not have HDMI on the TV)
IF I get a HDMI to DVI converter cable will this inprove picture quality ?~
The best PQ will be going DVI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-HDMI (that's what I do with my HLN DLP that also only has a DVI input). Kris Deering previously reported that black crush is introduced by going HDMI-to-DVI rather than DVI-to-DVI (I don't know if this was ever fixed with a firmware upgrade). The whole point of why Denon provides both a DVI and HDMI output is to be able to go DVI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-HDMI.

Since the 3910 production began in 2004, no unit should have a S/N that starts with a 3. Sounds like gray market item? Serial number should be on the box too.

302XXXX sounds like a Feb '03 build date which is impossible for this unit.

I think you're right about gray market. I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks for the info. Incidentally it doesn't pass BTB, and I guess Denon won't fix it for me without a 'valid' serial.

Originally posted by wheeler1629
Hmmm...the box doesn't have a serial number on it. And on the product updates pages on Denon's site it returns "There are no upgrades available..." Did you buy yours from Barney's?

I got the same message when I inadvertently specified model 3910S (for the silver version) instead of 3910 (for black).

Originally posted by wheeler1629
I think you're right about gray market. I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks for the info. Incidentally it doesn't pass BTB, and I guess Denon won't fix it for me without a 'valid' serial.

Don't know if you can return it for a refund but if you can, I got a great price on my 3910 from an A/V store in Laurel, MD.

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Don't know if you can return it for a refund but if you can, I got a great price on my 3910 from an A/V store in Laurel, MD.

Really? Which store...I'm in Laurel quite often. I've been looking for a good local place...

Originally posted by wheeler1629
Hmmm...the box doesn't have a serial number on it. And on the product updates pages on Denon's site it returns "There are no upgrades available..." Did you buy yours from Barney's?

No, I didn't. It was a "liquidator" with an incredibly positive feedback number and no recent negatives. Before buying, he fielded every question, and I had a slew of them.

Originally posted by kaduku
Yes, you do!!!! My serial number matches the built date on the player. 406XXXXXXX to June 2004. If you are not getting any update availability, then it must be an older unit that's not setup to receive updates. I would personally return the unit immediately. Sometimes paying the full price is necessary, so to get peace of mind. Heck, you've spent literally thousands on your HT, what's another thousand. Just make sure you get one that passes BTB.

I both agree and disagree. You can certainly pay full price and have immediate peace of mind that everything is kosher. And I would return this particular unit due to the serial number discrepancy. But I'd bet that there are hundreds of satisfied non-authorized buyers out there that are, not surprisingly, just not coming forward to 'fess up to their deed.

What's another thousand? For some, that's 200 bottles of wine and for others it's 5 bottles of wine. But why spend it if you do not have to? Of all of the A/V gear I've ever owned, I've never ever had to use the warranty. And I have been able to d/l and install the updates. So far, there's been no pain and only savings.

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Don't know if you can return it for a refund but if you can, I got a great price on my 3910 from an A/V store in Laurel, MD.

No dealer that I've found will come close to the $950 delivered available "online." In fact, before buying mine, I found dealers quite unreceptive to dealing at all. I consider that arrogant.

Originally posted by wheeler1629
I think you're right about gray market. I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks for the info. Incidentally it doesn't pass BTB, and I guess Denon won't fix it for me without a 'valid' serial.

I wouldn't give up hope, I bet Denon will upgrade/repair the unit, for a price though...I mean, where ever you bought it, Denon still built the thing.

Originally posted by pepar
No dealer that I've found will come close to the $950 delivered available "online." In fact, before buying mine, I found dealers quite unreceptive to dealing at all. I consider that arrogant.

Not really, it's a different type of business model. B&M dealers have way more overhead, whereas some online dealers just pick up a phone and have the unit transhipped from a third location to your address. All they need is a phone line to do business.

Originally posted by pepar
But why spend it if you do not have to? Of all of the A/V gear I've ever owned, I've never ever had to use the warranty.

Can you say Murphy's Law? It never fails, all the times you never need warranty repair and the one time you do it's on a device that you purchased from a unauthorized vendor. Been there, done that. I will never take that risk again on high dollar items, it has cost me in the past. :(

SC

Originally posted by pepar

What's another thousand? For some, that's 200 bottles of wine and for others it's 5 bottles of wine. But why spend it if you do not have to? Of all of the A/V gear I've ever owned, I've never ever had to use the warranty. And I have been able to d/l and install the updates. So far, there's been no pain and only savings.

I too, have been lucky to not use any warranties, but others have not. I have also purchased used items from low cost dealers, including eBay to save money, but choose to buy new high-end items from respectable dealers who will at least tell me that I am buying a gray market item, and who is not in the business of swapping serial numbers. The 3910 is not a cheap player and you are buying it because you want one of the best. Basically it comes down to "different strokes for different folks".

Remember the saying, you get what you pay for, and that is certainly the case for wheeler1629. IMHO :D

Pepar, I respect you opinion, and you must have saved alot of money and have extra cash to build that beautiful HT you have. Really nice!!!! :D

Originally posted by wheeler1629
Really? Which store...I'm in Laurel quite often. I've been looking for a good local place...

Audio Video Solutions on Route 1 at the intersection of Cherry Lane. They carry Denon, Rotel, Anthem, Paradigm, Thiel and Bryston along with a few other lines. Not quite as high-end as Soundworks in Kensington or JS Audio in Bethesda but much better than BB or CC.

Craig Hyatt is the salesman that I deal with.

Originally posted by pepar
No dealer that I've found will come close to the $950 delivered available "online." In fact, before buying mine, I found dealers quite unreceptive to dealing at all. I consider that arrogant.

You're right they didn't come down that low but I though he made a mistake when he quoted me the price he gave me.

I think the B&M vs. internet debate has been beaten to death so there is no point in rehashing all over again. :D

Thanks for all the info guys. I certainly knew what I was getting into and am willing to "suffer" the consequences, if any. I definitely fall into the camp of "why pay more if you have to" and I've never had a warranty issue with any electronics I've ever owned, but to each his own. The serial swapping is a new one by me, but I guess its unfortunately pretty common. Incidentally the player works great, with the exception of the BTB issue.

Originally posted by Badabbing
Can you say Murphy's Law? It never fails, all the times you never need warranty repair and the one time you do it's on a device that you purchased from a unauthorized vendor. Been there, done that. I will never take that risk again on high dollar items, it has cost me in the past. :(

SC

Understood and understandable. I checked as many dealers as I could without finding anyone who was willing to come off the list price much with my guideline being prices mentioned here by other posters. I checked with an authorized "B-stock" dealer and they wanted almost list for a refurbished unit. I considered all of this and the price avalable on ebay and then I made my choice. Ya rolls the dice and ya take your chances. I am not recommending this choice for anybody else; I am just relating my experience.

I am not looking to rehash the internet vs. authorized B&M issue nor do I have an opinion on what others should do. I made a decision based on my experience and I am willing to live with it.

There is potentially another way to get a good price on gear. If you work for a fairly large corporation, check with your purchasing dept. Businesses typically get 20-30% off retail and you may be able to purchase it through your work (or your friends work, etc.).

Even though our company extends the discount to its employees, the privilege isn't advertised and many don't know about it.

Cheers,

- Tim

Can someone please explain why some "sellers" are swapping serial numbers? What does it do for them?

Originally posted by bucky63
Can someone please explain why some "sellers" are swapping serial numbers? What does it do for them? Presumably keeps the unit from being tracked back to the original dealer who's not supposed to be selling on-line. But I bet it's in there somewhere. Some states don't allow exclusions of warranty so I'd not give up too easily if I had a problem. Often, when an item is clearly in it's warranty period, based on how long it's been manufactured for instance, the service dept isn't going to go to any lengths to verify. If it was mfgr'd in 2003 and it has a 2 year warranty, there's no need to even look it up until 2006. And even if they did, surely the charge for a firmware load would be minimal, hopefully.

I just purcased the 3910. I skimmed thru some of the posts but I don't have time to read them all. My Q's are:

I am having trouble with a long HDMI cable that works fine when connected to my HDTivo, does the 3910 have problems with long feeds? It's a 50ft cable running to a front projector(AE700).

Also I have it set up with a short cable now in the back of the room seperated fromt the rest of the gear. But if I run a long firewire cable for audio, what will it pass thru firewire? I need it to pass DVD-Audio, SACD, DTS, and the usuall D.D. 5.1. Will it do all?

Also how do I find out what Firmware I have?

Thanks to all in advance.

everything passes through firewire/IEEE1394/iLink
SACD,DVD-A,CD,DTS,DD etc.
That's why i like it :) (pity about the stupid dropout glitches i am still having with iLink though, i hope this new firmware release fixes it. :()

And to check your firmware version:

1. Turn the small power button off on the front of the unit.
2. Hold down the PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE buttons on the front of the unit, both at the same time.
3. Turn the power back on and continue holding the buttons for 3 seconds, then let go.
4. After “>II LOADING” shows on the display, press the 3,2,6,5 buttons on the remote (in that order) and then press the MENU button to see the version. Press MENU again five times to see the other settings for the firmware.

Sorry, but and i am not to sure about the HDMI cable and the length, maybe somebody else can help you out with that question :)

Cheers
KJ

Thanks KJ,

Looked up firmware and this is what I have:

ESS 6609-A
Make Day 302
030825
Sysytem 6767-4
DSD 6770
CNE 20040609

I take that the first number is the firmware. What is the most up to date? The website says I am current. Anything newer out there?

Originally posted by Krazykaj
everything passes through firewire/IEEE1394/iLink
SACD,DVD-A,CD,DTS,DD etc.
That's why i like it :) (pity about the stupid dropout glitches i am still having with iLink though, i hope this new firmware release fixes it. :()
KJ

KJ, what receiver/pre/pro do you have that accepts iLink?

Quick question with regards to firmware. I'm on page 44 and reading up, but I was wondering if firmware still needs to be sent from Denon? I know Denon has a support page for firmware. Is it possible to simply download the firmware, burn to disc and then flash?? <-- I assume this to be true, but all the posts I've read thus far suggests firmware sent on a disc by the manufacturer.

Thanks!

There's an open box 3910 at my local Good Guys that I want to purchase and test to see if it's worth the additional $$. Sounds like the audio components in addition to video outweigh the problems.

You can download them. I just did. You just enter the serial number and model umber and it tells you if you need it or not. Mine was already installed by someone but it thought I needed it anyway.

Originally posted by jazzcat
KJ, what receiver/pre/pro do you have that accepts iLink?

I have the 3910 hooked up to a Yamaha Z9.
I have gone into a lot more detail in this thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5278979#post5278979) Mainly see the letter I sent to Denon for the best description.
A few others also seem to be experiencing similar problems, . . .
Jazzcat, if you have any suggestions, it'd be most welcome :)

Thankyou

Cheers
KJ

Originally posted by Krazykaj
I have the 3910 hooked up to a Yamaha Z9.
I have gone into a lot more detail in this thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5278979#post5278979) Mainly see the letter I sent to Denon for the best description.
A few others also seem to be experiencing similar problems, . . .
Jazzcat, if you have any suggestions, it'd be most welcome :)

Thankyou

Cheers
KJ

Hi KJ, the only thing I can say is that IEEE-1394 is not quite ready for prime time. Of the 2 Pre-Pro's I am looking at, one flat out won't equip their processor with it at this time and the second stated they will have an upgrade soon, but may reconsider as there has not been a lot of demand.

Firewire will pass SACD; HDMI will not. I like SACD. I own a number of them and plan to still buy them. I really don't care if some say that format will die out; I will still enjoy the music they produce.

There'a a thread about someone who has the 5910 and 5805 AV receiver and is having issues too.

Sometimes I wish that I was just an average Joe 6 pack that is just tickled pink about their $450 complete home theater! A LOT less stress! :D

Ciao,

Mark

Originally posted by jazzcat

Sometimes I wish that I was just an average Joe 6 pack that is just tickled pink about their $450 complete home theater! A LOT less stress! :D


Amen to that!

Dave, did you get your player back?

Originally posted by jazzcat
Sometimes I wish that I was just an average Joe 6 pack that is just tickled pink about their $450 complete home theater! A LOT less stress! :D


And a LOT more beer money!

Originally posted by pepar
And a LOT more beer money!

BURP! :cool:

Hello.

I've an Panasonic AE700, an 15m supra HDMI cable and a denon 3910.

This is my second atempt with an AE700. In the first one (in september-octobre 2004) i turn it back because of the 'white flash' issue (solved with the new firmware), and now I have bought it again with the new firmware, and found a synchro problem when working with 3910 (every 4 seconds or so i got a signal mistake or even a lost signal).

The first time (in october 2004) and with the same cable and dvd player (and an ae700 PJ with the old firmware) this problem didn't occur at all.

This only happens when using HDMI connection. To me it seems like the two (dvd player and PJ) aren't communicating the rigth way (syncro problem ?)

I've never done any upgrade on denon's firmware. What do you recomend me ?

Ah...I have finally caught up after reading 150+ some odd pages.

I am the new owner of a 3910. I also purchased a Panasonic S97 do to a side by side comparison. One of them is going back...but it's not going to be the 3910..... Well the 3910 may be going back, but not permanently.

I know some may think I'm crazy comparing a $300 player to the 3910. However, my original intention was to get an upconverting player to replace my Sony NS700P. I also wanted to utilize the DVI interface on my GWIII KF50WE610. The goal was to get a reasonably priced player that increased PQ since we watch quite a few DVD's.

Anyway, I was contemplating between the 2910 and the S97. During my search, I stumbled across an open box 3910 that was just returned and was in impeccable condition. I couldn't resist.

Now for the issues:

I just calibrated using DVE and unfortunately, I have a unit that is plagued with the BTB problem. I'll see if I can exchange it for one that doesn't based on an earlier post using the circle check on the box.

I also have a problem adjusting sharpness using the DVE test pattern. No matter how much I increase/decrease sharpness values in my GWIII or the 3910, I cannot see a difference. This is through DVE so I'll have to check it again through component. Has anyone else noticed this?

I also see artifacts that one may term as grainy, but I wouldn't define this as MB. From my understanding of MB, I didn't notice much of it.

The last minor irritation is that it can't play DVR+R discs. I know some have been successful with various brands of media. The NS700P played everything I could throw at it.

Despite the minor issues, I am so impressed with the 3910. I was pleasently surprised by the improvement in sound and the detail/clarity of subtle sounds. Okay, I wasn't just pleasantly surprised, I was blown away!! The sound alone makes it worth the price differential.

Firmware is updated to the latest revision. The instructions say to use a CD-R. Wondering if anyone tried using CD-RW or DVD-RW with success? I don't like wasting two discs with 700MB of space each for files that are 130k and 1.37MB.

Originally posted by mattbugz
Ah...I have finally caught up after reading 150+ some odd pages.

I am the new owner of a 3910. I also purchased a Panasonic S97 do to a side by side comparison. One of them is going back...but it's not going to be the 3910..... Well the 3910 may be going back, but not permanently.

I know some may think I'm crazy comparing a $300 player to the 3910. However, my original intention was to get an upconverting player to replace my Sony NS700P.

It's perfectly logical - and prudent - to compare a $300 unit to a $1500 unit. The lesser expensive DVD decks these days are attracting a large audience, and justifiably so. If one cannot hear/see the difference, then why spend the extra dinero? The burn rate in this hobby is high enough.

And you're right, some of the pages are odd. :)

Originally posted by mattbugz
Firmware is updated to the latest revision. The instructions say to use a CD-R. Wondering if anyone tried using CD-RW or DVD-RW with success? I don't like wasting two discs with 700MB of space each for files that are 130k and 1.37MB.

The instructions I have say you can use a CD-R or RW. But considering you just wasted :D $1500 on a DVD player what's a couple of CD-Rs. Just drive past the Starbucks on your way to work on Monday and drink the swill in the office breakroom and you'll have covered the cost of the CD-Rs. :D :D

Originally posted by mattbugz
The last minor irritation is that it can't play DVR+R discs. I know some have been successful with various brands of media. The NS700P played everything I could throw at it.



Congrats on your new player. If you are having problems with DVD+R discs, it is with the burner you're using, not the 3910. Are you setting "Book Type" to DVD-ROM when you burn +R discs? This will ensure 100% compatibility with virtually all players including the 3910.

I have found that CD-RW discs don't work as well when updating firmware. I'd recommend using regular CD-Rs considering how critical the application is.

Originally posted by mattbugz

I also have a problem adjusting sharpness using the DVE test pattern. No matter how much I increase/decrease sharpness values in my GWIII or the 3910, I cannot see a difference. This is through DVE so I'll have to check it again through component. Has anyone else noticed this?

I also see artifacts that one may term as grainy, but I wouldn't define this as MB. From my understanding of MB, I didn't notice much of it.



Matt,
I noticed the same thing regarding sharpness. I am using the DVI connection and assumed that sharpness doesn't affect the digital signal.

I also noticed the graininess but it is only on certain DVDs so I assume that it has more to do with the quality of the transfer than with the DVD player.

I picked up several SACD titles and a couple more DVD-A so I could compare the two types of discs. I have to say that audibly there is no discernable difference to my ears between the two formats. I will probably get mostly SACD discs in the future, though, because of the fact that I can play them in my CD player in my car (they're hybrid SACDs).

I spent several hours thus morning reading while I listeded to the SACDs and it was quite an experience.

Matt,
Your Sony still has a D/A conversion in it's process. I don't believe that it shows a native digital signal. Try sending it a 480P component signal and see how the picture looks.

Also...if you have upgraded your firmward to 9A, everyone better double check their settings, it changes the color output of the player.

Dave

Originally posted by traveler
I also noticed the graininess but it is only on certain DVDs so I assume that it has more to do with the quality of the transfer than with the DVD player.

It's possible or even lilely that your system has now been upgraded to a point where the limiting factor is now the DVD transfer (where previously it had been your DVD player).

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Matt,
Your Sony still has a D/A conversion in it's process. I don't believe that it shows a native digital signal. Try sending it a 480P component signal and see how the picture looks.

Also...if you have upgraded your firmward to 9A, everyone better double check their settings, it changes the color output of the player.

Dave

does it eliminate the green push over DVI?

Could some one please tell me what Im missing?

I went to denons site to get a firmware, under product ugrades?

I put in the serial, from a September 2004, made model. and it says there is not upgrades avail???

Someone help, how do I get the latest firmware?

Steve,
I don't use my 3910 over DVI so I couldn't tell you. My unit when it was hooked up over DVI had a slight green pull though, but I think that had to do more with my display than anything...it does some "funky" things through the DVI port. I would suggest checking AVIA's color decoder once you do the upgrade and you will see what I mean.

Dave

Originally posted by Steve99
does it eliminate the green push over DVI?

I can only do the green push test by site since I don't have the Avia disk...only DVE. However, with Color/Hue adjustment, I was comfortable with the green output. Although it could be just me not being as concerned or sensitive to the green push issue others mentioned.

pepar

Yes, there are even pages too!! :)

JohnGZ28/Sam

I think you're correct...I shouldn't be too concerned with CD-R's that cost a few cents to purchase nowadays. I just don't have too many left and I'd rather not purchase more since I burn things to DVD(+-)R these days.

Sam, I'm not sure what you mean by "Book Type".


Dave

I've tried sending 480p via component. I prefer 720p still.

Originally posted by mattbugz


I think you're correct...I shouldn't be too concerned with CD-R's that cost a few cents to purchase nowadays. I just don't have too many left and I'd rather not purchase more since I burn things to DVD(+-)R these days.

The Denon upgrade instructions mention using CD-RW so that they can be erased if they are done incorrectly. Even though you're doing DVDs, you might just keep a CD-RW around for upgrades and save DVDs for slightly larger :) jobs.

Originally posted by SOWK
Could some one please tell me what Im missing?

I went to denons site to get a firmware, under product ugrades?

I put in the serial, from a September 2004, made model. and it says there is not upgrades avail???

Someone help, how do I get the latest firmware?

Did you purchase from an authorized dealer?

Originally posted by jazzcat
Did you purchase from an authorized dealer?

That may not matter.

Originally posted by SOWK
Could some one please tell me what Im missing?

I went to denons site to get a firmware, under product ugrades?

I put in the serial, from a September 2004, made model. and it says there is not upgrades avail???

Someone help, how do I get the latest firmware?

Make sure you specify the correct model. I initially selected 3910S and got the same message. My unit is black and when I selected 3910 I was able to access the upgrade.

Originally posted by SOWK
Could some one please tell me what Im missing?

I went to denons site to get a firmware, under product ugrades?

I put in the serial, from a September 2004, made model. and it says there is not upgrades avail???

Someone help, how do I get the latest firmware?

Use the serial number that is in the picture on the back of the unit at the Denon site. 4058400007. I just tried it and it works.

Sold my 3910, i couldn't stand the macroblocking issues on my 50" Panasonic plasma, for the price you would expect the player shouldn't be faulty with bugs in the chipset.

What would you recommend instead i bought?

Originally posted by Likvid
Sold my 3910, i couldn't stand the macroblocking issues on my 50" Panasonic plasma, for the price you would expect the player shouldn't be faulty with bugs in the chipset.

What would you recommend instead i bought?

You might read through the multitude of pages on the Onkyo 1000 and see if someone has a display like yours and see what they think.

Originally posted by Likvid
Sold my 3910, i couldn't stand the macroblocking issues on my 50" Panasonic plasma, for the price you would expect the player shouldn't be faulty with bugs in the chipset.

What would you recommend instead i bought?

Get an Oppo Digital - OPDV971H.

Or keep the Denon 3910 and get rid of the Panasonic plasma. For the price you would expect a TV like that not to have macroblocking issues. The 3910 works great on my little 34" Sony with no macroblocking. It must be your TV. :D

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Get an Oppo Digital - OPDV971H.

Or keep the Denon 3910 and get rid of the Panasonic plasma. For the price you would expect a TV like that not to have macroblocking issues. The 3910 works great on my little 34" Sony with no macroblocking. It must be your TV. :D

It's well documented that it's a problem with a combination of the two. Faroudja based players in general can have issues with Panny plasmas.

Being that the TV cost over 5 times what the Denon cost, I would would look for another player over getting another display. :)

Or, if you still have the player, you can spend another $1500-1600 and go SDI w/scaler and get the best picture possible with maybe the exception on the Denon 5910...

As has been written many times, MB is very display dependent. Every player using the Faroudja chip has the potential to have MB problems (including players from Denon, Yamaha, Zenith/LG, Samsung, Oppo, etc, etc). I blame Faroudja, not the DVD manufacturers. Fortunately, I do not see any with my 3910 on my Sammy DLP. And John, the Oppo would be a poor choice because it also has MB (clearly a problem with Faroudja players and Likvid's display).

Originally posted by BillP
As has been written many times, MB is very display dependent. Every player using the Faroudja chip has the potential to have MB problems (including players from Denon, Yamaha, Zenith/LG, Samsung, Oppo, etc, etc). I blame Faroudja, not the DVD manufacturers. Fortunately, I do not see any with my 3910 on my Sammy DLP. And John, the Oppo would be a poor choice because it also has MB (clearly a problem with Faroudja players and Likvid's display).

BillP I agree with you the problem is with the Faroudja chip and not the 3910. As both you and keenan mentioned it is very well documented that DVD players using the Faroudja may have the MB issue. It doesn't matter if the cost is $100 or $10,000 the potential for the problem is the same.

My recommendation of the Oppo was to that point. Since it only cost $200 Likvid's expectations would be much lower and perhaps the MB would then be tolerable. :D

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Since it only cost $200 Likvid's expectations would be much lower and perhaps the MB would then be tolerable. :D

Yes i agree, if the Denon 3910 would have a price of $200 i could accept the MB problem but if you pay above $1000 for a DVD player today you shouldn't have these problems.

It's not only Faroudjas fault bringing out faulty chipset but it is Denons respsonsiblity also to choose another manufacturer than Faroudja.

Anyway, i am glad i sold it for nearly the same money i bought it.

The plasma screen i had the extreme MB problems with is the Panasonic TH-50PHD6UY

I agree that you would hope the DVD manufactures would choose another chip set but as with all manufacturing everything is a set of compromises to meet a certain price point.

As both BillP and Keenan pointed out this MB problem is well documented with Panny plasmas. Perhaps Panny could change something in their manufacturing to prevent the MB. It might add to the cost of the set but maybe they could do it.

As you search for a new player check out BillP's post and the return policy of the place you buy it from.

"Every player using the Faroudja chip has the potential to have MB problems (including players from Denon, Yamaha, Zenith/LG, Samsung, Oppo, etc, etc). I blame Faroudja, not the DVD manufacturers".

If you have bad MB with your display, I would recommend a player that uses a different chip, such as the Sony upscaling player, the Samsung 841 or 840 upscaling playher, or a Denon non-upscaling player (2200 or 2900).

Just wanted to chime in with my two cents on the macroblocking issue.

I've been seeing some MB occasionally, and I've got the 3910 connected to a good old fashioned 57" CRT HDTV. I too feel that this should not be an issue with a $1200 player and I'm, still not sure if I'm going to keep mine. The problem is, I can't find anything I like better and I really like the sound quality of the unit. I even went to the shop that sold me the 3910 to see if maybe I should trade up to the 5910. I threw a disc in the 5910 that I knew had MB problems. I was surprised to see the picture looked even worse! What the?! FYI - The 5910 was connected to a state-of-the-art Sony Qualia HDTV. I'm sure that there is more than a good chance that the 5910 and/or the TV were not properly calibrated, but I checked the picture adjustments on the 5910 and they were all at their default settings. My feeling is that even if the two weren't properly calibrated, there should be nothing you could do in the 5910 settings to make MB appear, let alone have the issue out of the box.

It seems to me that in the attempt to squeeze that last drop of detail out of the DVD format, many of these new players are just highlighting the video compression garbage.

BTW - My old DVD player, a Kenwood Sovereign model that uses a Faroujda chip, never exhibited the MB problem. Though, I could force it to happen by cranking up the "video enhancement" setting.

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Get an Oppo Digital - OPDV971H.

Or keep the Denon 3910 and get rid of the Panasonic plasma. For the price you would expect a TV like that not to have macroblocking issues. The 3910 works great on my little 34" Sony with no macroblocking. It must be your TV. :D

Nice! :) I don't have any macroblocking either. Just artifacts once in a while. Calibrating goes a LONG way.

I was testing the 3910 side by side with a Panny S97. I can only calibrate one at a time on my GWIII (no multiple profiles). Anyway, when it was calibrated for the 3910, I could see color banding on the Panny. Calibrated for the Panny and no more banding.

Mattbugz -

So what did you do to get rid of the banding? That is one of the problems I'm seeing with the 3910 in my system.

- Tim

I used DVD Video Essentials (DVE) and went through the Basic Video Calibration section. If you don't have this DVD, try setting your picture to a low value and do the same for brightness. Start with raising your brightness setting gradually Then adjust your picture.

Also, I may have missed this in an earlier post, but have you tried using 480P then work your way up to 720p/1090i?

I'd highly recommend getting DVE or Avia. Amazon or eBay....good prices.

I am a 3910 owner and am trying to get the dvi to work but the projector Ive got is the sanyo plv 70 it has dvi but not compliant what happens is when I select dvi out on the 3910 it comes on then goes out, but what a picture when it is on is there any secret at all to get this to work without buying another projector. I read where going from dvi to hdmi changed the picture quality could I fool the projector by this conversion I dont know need some input please.:mad:

Originally posted by dalel
I am a 3910 owner and am trying to get the dvi to work but the projector Ive got is the sanyo plv 70 it has dvi but not compliant what happens is when I select dvi out on the 3910 it comes on then goes out, but what a picture when it is on is there any secret at all to get this to work without buying another projector. I read where going from dvi to hdmi changed the picture quality could I fool the projector by this conversion I dont know need some input please.:mad:

Your 3910's DVI will not work with a projector that does not have HDCP, which the PLV70 does not. Even if you convert the 3910's HDMI to DVI, the 3910 will still be looking for HDCP. You are limited to component, s-video and composite connections between your player and pj. Sorry.

Hi everyone,

I just ordered my DVD-3910 and I'm looking for some opinions.

I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi receiver (with i-link) with some Paradigm LCR-350 all around. What audio cable would you recomend. I've been using coax on my old sony dvd but I would like to take advantage of the i-link. Is the i-link the best way to go(sound quality). I guess the best way would be for me to compare myself but I'm looking for some good input.
Thanks Chris

Originally posted by Weatherman72
Hi everyone,

I just ordered my 3910 and I'm looking for some opinions.

I have a Pioneer VSX-59Txi with some Paradigm LCR-350 all around. What audio cable would you recomend. I've been using coax on my old sony dvd but I would like to take advantage of the i-link. Is the i-link the best way to go. I guess the best was would be for me to compare myself but I'm looking for some good input.

You only mention half of the equation - the DVD player. What pre/pro/receiver are you using and is it iLink- (or firewire-) enabled?

My receiver is Pioneer's VSX-59TXi.

Originally posted by Weatherman72
My receiver is Pioneer's VSX-59TXi.

Hopefully, others who own that particular combination will contribute to this thread. Have you tried it?

Originally posted by Weatherman72
My receiver is Pioneer's VSX-59TXi.

It's got dual Firewire connectivity so you are good to go :)

Not yet....It's on the slow brown truck as I type. I was just looking for some input before I plop down more money for cables.I don't have a i-link cable yet and it's getting harder to justify cable money to the wife.

IEEE-1394 cable comes with the 3910 :cool:

Cool!! One less thing to buy is alway good. thanks

I would suggest all potential buyers to stay away from buying ANY product with the Faroudja chipset inside, the chip is clearly broken.

Macroblocking issues are there and it might be less noticable with other displays, however you shouldn't neglect that MB issues are still there and will stay there until they fix their broken chip or comes out with a revision.

I can not understand how Faroudja would have imagined customers buying into this and not noticing the Macroblocking issues.

Originally posted by Likvid
I would suggest all potential buyers to stay away from buying ANY product with the Faroudja chipset inside, the chip is clearly broken.

Macroblocking issues are there and it might be less noticable with other displays, however you shouldn't neglect that MB issues are still there and will stay there until they fix their broken chip or comes out with a revision.

I can not understand how Faroudja would have imagined customers buying into this and not noticing the Macroblocking issues.

I have zero macroblocking issues with the 3910 and my ISF'ed Samsung DLP.

There are a lot of people with 3910s who have no macro blocking issues!

Originally posted by Likvid
I would suggest all potential buyers to stay away from buying ANY product with the Faroudja chipset inside, the chip is clearly broken.

Macroblocking issues are there and it might be less noticable with other displays, however you shouldn't neglect that MB issues are still there and will stay there until they fix their broken chip or comes out with a revision.

I can not understand how Faroudja would have imagined customers buying into this and not noticing the Macroblocking issues.

I say we all get together out back pile all these 3910's that nobody likes due to this "broken Faroudja" chip, MB problem, green push, etc. light 'em all up and stand back and have a weeny roast. Who's bringing the rolls and potato salad? What do ya think?

OK, I'm sorry I could'nt help it, I won't do it again. :p

SC

Macroblocking?? Is that what really big lineman do?? :D

Now add all the Onkyo players with the lip sync problems and you need to call the fire dept. Right!?!
I hope I can add my name to the list of happy 3910 owners soon.

Chris

Originally posted by Badabbing
I say we all get together out back pile all these 3910's that nobody likes due to this "broken Faroudja" chip, MB problem, green push, etc. light 'em all up and stand back and have a weeny roast. Who's bringing the rolls and potato salad? What do ya think?

OK, I'm sorry I could'nt help it, I won't do it again. :p

SC

They would at least be blacker than black then! :p :D :D

I couldn't help it either :cool:

Originally posted by traveler
There are a lot of people with 3910s who have no macro blocking issues!

I have micro blocking issues. My macro blocking is so small I can't see it. :p

I apologize if this is an absurdly simple question, but....is it possible to see the transfer rate of dvd's? If so, how?
Thanks

It is not possible to see the transfer rate of the DVD.

Dave

Originally posted by hifisponge

I even went to the shop that sold me the 3910 to see if maybe I should trade up to the 5910. I threw a disc in the 5910 that I knew had MB problems. I was surprised to see the picture looked even worse! What the?! FYI - The 5910 was connected to a state-of-the-art Sony Qualia HDTV. I'm sure that there is more than a good chance that the 5910 and/or the TV were not properly calibrated, but I checked the picture adjustments on the 5910 and they were all at their default settings. My feeling is that even if the two weren't properly calibrated, there should be nothing you could do in the 5910 settings to make MB appear, let alone have the issue out of the box.

How could you be seeing worse macroblocking on the 5910 ? Correct me if i am wrong, but the 5910 does not use the Faroudja chip, so how could it have worse MB ?

Here are the specs directly off the Denon website for the 5910 :

World's First Consumer Product to be Powered with the Realta with HQV (Hollywood Quality Video) by Teranax Decoding Engine - Finest professional quality 10-bit processing for film, video, graphics or mixed-mode content • World's First DVD player to feature 10-bit Scaling by DVDO-HD.

Am I missing something here ?

I still believe some of the people that have MB have it because of incorrectly adjusted display &/or player.

I saw MB with my display and the 3910 out of the box, but once I adjusted the display and player properly there has never been a sign of it ever again.

nelson4u, you are correct. The poster may be seeing other artifacts, or he may not have properly set up the 5910 and/or display, but he cannot be seeing MB on the 5910.

That is correct....these "artifacts" have a similar look to that of MacroBlocking...

for example, on my Sony 55XS955, when watching some HD content that is not that clear (such as some of NBC's programming, or Alias on ABC), you will notice this pseudo-MB on red backgrounds....and now that I am anal about it since I got my 3910, I notice it more....

I found a similar behavior on my Father's Hitachi Ultravision HDTV, so no, it is not a Sony issue either...

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
It is not possible to see the transfer rate of the DVD.

Dave Sure it is, there are lots of bit rate checkers out there. Google search will give you lots to look at. Here's one with several:
http://www.lyberty.com/mediatech/format-check.htm

Digital displays can't show true blacks (yet) and so in some dark scenes, artifacting which looks like MB can be seen. With careful calibration, you can minimize this problem. If you don't like that, then you need to get a CRT based HDTV or wait till the latest generation of digital displays are available, IMO.

Originally posted by GetGray
Sure it is, there are lots of bit rate checkers out there. Google search will give you lots to look at. Here's one with several:
http://www.lyberty.com/mediatech/format-check.htm

I'm a little hazy on what the poster meant by "transfer rate." There's bitrate, which can be checked, but maybe he simply meant the quality of the transfer. The original reference was, I believe, to seeing grain on a 3910 that had not been seen on the poster's previous player. My comment was that his system was now upgraded to the point that the DVD transfer - not necessarily having anything to do with "rate" - was now the weak link.

Well in DVD terms the only rate that affects PQ is the data rate encoded. It is directly related to the way the mpeg is encoded. As for the quality of the material, that's dependent on the mpeg encoder itself. Even for my low end stuff I use a decent encoder and do VBR (variable bit rate) with multipass encoding. Generally speaking higher bit rates mean less compression which results in higher quality video. The highest quality video would have no compression and huge data rates. There are of course more complex things going on, but as realted to "rate" that's a relationship that is there.

And yes, when someone says transfer quality, what that means to me is how well it was compressed (mpeg2 encoded).

Just took a look at the McCormack - UDP-1 benchmark. Twice the price as the 3910 and twice the issues on the video side but no mention of macroblocking. So for a MSRP of 3495 you can get rid of the MB but still not pass BTB.

Interesting comment from McCormack in that they felt the video side of the player would be "decent enough for most viewers".

Originally posted by GetGray
And yes, when someone says transfer quality, what that means to me is how well it was compressed (mpeg2 encoded).

Gotcha!

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Just took a look at the McCormack - UDP-1 benchmark. Twice the price as the 3910 and twice the issues on the video side but no mention of macroblocking. So for a MSRP of 3495 you can get rid of the MB but still not pass BTB.

Interesting comment from McCormack in that they felt the video side of the player would be "decent enough for most viewers".

Well, that's either design transparency or lameness. You don't usually hear a mfg using "decent enough" in its communications.

I am always watching for MB on my 3910, and I often see macroblocking like effects during movies. I then take the same disc, put it in my Sony 755V and Panasonic XP50 to double check. The macroblocking effect is invariably visible to the same degree on these two DVD players as well.

So to be sure what you are seeing is really exagerrated macroblocking caused by the 3910, you have to A/B with a player using the same disc queued to the same position. If I did NOT do this A/B comparison I would be CERTAIN macroblocking makes the 3910 unwatchable, because I do see the effect on a number of DVD's. It's just that the bad compression effect that causes this is also visible with any other DVD player as well, so I know the 3910 is not exagerrating it in my case.

This Denon case is like buying an expensive car.

It's like driving a car for $50,000 and the dealer doesn't tell the customer that the car starts to wobble above 100mph.

That's part of the design the manufacturer says when the customer brings it up, just normal, all cars wobble to some degree, it's all depends who drives the car.

I meant that you couldn't see the bitrate in the 3910...I use a bitrate calculator for my DVD reviews over at the Spot, and in a lot of cases, a higher bit rate does mean less compression, but not always the best transfer.

Dave

I am thinking of buying the Marantz 8400 or 9500 instead, anyone know if those players would suit my TH-50PHD6UY with no MB bugs?

Originally posted by Likvid
I am thinking of buying the Marantz 8400 or 9500 instead, anyone know if those players would suit my TH-50PHD6UY with no MB bugs?

This is the 3910 thread and would be out of scope. It would be more prudent if you post a new thread with your question.

OH MY!

I was trying to upgrade my firware for my DENON 3910 when I relized my unit doesnt have a serial number???? How bad is that, and what does that mean? I got the latest fireware, but have not installed them. This wont casue any problem if I do right?

Originally posted by SOWK
OH MY!

I was trying to upgrade my firware for my DENON 3910 when I relized my unit doesnt have a serial number???? How bad is that, and what does that mean? I got the latest fireware, but have not installed them. This wont casue any problem if I do right?

Did you purchase from a grey market dealer? In any case, someone mentioned to just use the serial number that shows on the back of the 3910 image on Denon's site. Give that a shot. It won't cause a problem because the file itself is not associated with any specific unit.

If it is grey market, what does that mean? It is still fully a Denon 3910? right? All the parts are from Denon right? Is there any differences then buying from the manufacterer?

As a broad definition, I would say gray market is purchasing a Denon that is not listed on their site as an official dealer (http://www.usa.denon.com/dealers/dealers.asp?l=1) .

Here's the warning on their site:
"WARNING TO VALUED CONSUMERS:

The warranty on DENON Electronics products is NOT VALID if the products have been purchased from an unauthorized dealer/on-line E-tailer or if the original factory serial number has been removed, defaced or replaced in any way. Recently DENON Electronics has become aware of numerous instances in which such serial number tampering has occurred. Unauthorized dealers/on-line E-tailers and/or their suppliers frequently alter the serial numbers in an effort to prevent manufacturers from tracing the supplier source. DENON Electronics sell products through authorized retail and on-line channels to insure that consumers obtain quality pre-sale and after-sale support and service. PROTECT YOUR WARRANTY. Buy from an authorized DENON Electronics dealer/E-tailer. Check the unit and its packaging to determine whether the factory serial number may have been altered. To check to see if your dealer is an authorized dealer click here or if in doubt, call DENON Electronics at (973) 396-0810. For warranty terms and conditions on New or Refurbished equipment, please select the appropriate product type."

If you bought it from a cheap online dealer, and the serial number on the back of the unit does not match the serial number on the box, it's grey market. It will work the same as an authorized unit, but Denon may not honor the warranty.

I am thinking of buying the Marantz 8400 or 9500 instead, anyone know if those players would suit my TH-50PHD6UY with no MB bugs?According to the very nice Marantz guy whom I got automatically redirected to when I tried to call the Denon "return for fix it line"... yes, the Marantz 9500 will be superior to the Denon and uses a wholly new and Marantz designed audio and video trace which is superior to the 3910???????? YMMV.

OK, OK, if you did not get your 3910 from an authorized dealer, you got it as a gift. Conflicting or missing serial numbers are another problem which would cause me to take IMMEDIATE action against the seller for a refund. To me, a missing serial number could indicate stolen goods.

Originally posted by merc
According to the very nice Marantz guy whom I got automatically redirected to when I tried to call the Denon "return for fix it line"... yes, the Marantz 9500 will be superior to the Denon and uses a wholly new and Marantz designed audio and video trace which is superior to the 3910???????? YMMV.
The Marantz is also more expensive than the 3910 (list $2000 vs. $1500). It would not surprise me that audio is better with the Marantz, but I would wait to see reviews regarding video.

The Marantz is also more expensive than the 3910 (list $2000 vs. $1500). It would not surprise me that audio is better with the Marantz,BillP.... really? What has been your experience with the Marantz and Denon? :D

Originally posted by BillP
If you bought it from a cheap online dealer, and the serial number on the back of the unit does not match the serial number on the box, it's grey market. It will work the same as an authorized unit, but Denon may not honor the warranty.

Bill there is no serial number!!!!!

What should I do?

Originally posted by SOWK
Bill there is no serial number!!!!!

What should I do?

Take immediate action against the seller for a full refund.

Originally posted by pepar
Take immediate action against the seller for a full refund.

What steps whould I take to do this?

Thanks for your advice.

Originally posted by SOWK
What steps whould I take to do this?

Thanks for your advice.

Contact the seller and tell him that there is no serial number, you're concerned that it is stolen and you want your money back IMMEDIATELY. What form of payment did you use? You may have recourse there.

I would start by being polite and simply state that you cannot accept a unit without a serial number. There is no way for you to update the unit. Selling it will be difficult. Servicing it will be difficult or impossible. For these reasons (and others) I would state that you want to return the unit for a full refund. You could ask for the seller to pay for the shipping also but that might be pushing the envelope...

good luck

I meant that you couldn't see the bitrate in the 3910...I use a bitrate calculator for my DVD reviews over at the Spot, and in a lot of cases, a higher bit rate does mean less compression, but not always the best transfer.

Thank you Dave, That is the information I was looking for. I may have used the wrong terminology.

Originally posted by mismatched
I would start by being polite and simply state that you cannot accept a unit without a serial number. There is no way for you to update the unit. Selling it will be difficult. Servicing it will be difficult or impossible. For these reasons (and others) I would state that you want to return the unit for a full refund. You could ask for the seller to pay for the shipping also but that might be pushing the envelope...

good luck

Yes, let's definitely be polite. SOWK is in a bad place right now.

SOWK

I think you can count on those of us in the forum and the organizers to help you as much as we can.

SWOK, if you got it online, go to the website and read their return policy. See if they allow returns and see what the restocking fee is.

OTOH, many internet dealers offer a warranty equal to the manufacturers. They issue Return Authorization numbers for repair return. You may never need repair so you may be ok as far as the purchase goes. Many people buy grey market and have no problems. You basically take a risk buying from an unauthorized dealer, but if nothing goes wrong, you save $$$ and get to enjoy a piece of equipment most of us paid more for.

Originally posted by merc
According to the very nice Marantz guy whom I got automatically redirected to when I tried to call the Denon "return for fix it line"... yes, the Marantz 9500 will be superior to the Denon and uses a wholly new and Marantz designed audio and video trace which is superior to the 3910???????? YMMV.

Yeah i will buy the Marantz 9500 then, looks promising, i won't return to Denon again, that's for sure.

Originally posted by jazzcat
SWOK, if you got it online, go to the website and read their return policy. See if they allow returns and see what the restocking fee is.

I can't, for the life of me, think of any legitimate reason for NO serial number. Therefore, absent some gold-plated, confidence-inspiring WRITTEN guarentee from the vendor on warranty, they can shove there "restocking" fees. And if they do not have a return policy, I'd be contacting my state Attorney General.

pepar

relax ! :D

Originally posted by Likvid
Yeah i will buy the Marantz 9500 then, looks promising, i won't return to Denon again, that's for sure.

You may want to check with other Panny owners to find out which players they are using and what, if any, problems they have so your expectation level will be correct.

Making a $2k purchase based on a survey of one, and the one hasn't even used the player on the TV that you have, is a recipe for another disaster.

The question was asked, "How could I be seeing MB on the 5910, when it doesn't even use the Faroujda chip?" Wish I had the answer, and while what I saw may not have technically qualified as true MB, it sure looked like it to me. I fully went to the shop hoping and expecting to be blown away by the 5910. While I was disappointed, I also tend to side with the guys here that believe it was purely a set-up issue. My point in making the statement was that I don't understand why is it even possible to see this effect. I was hoping that a state of the art player would help smooth out some of the video compression artifacts, while still enhancing the perceived resolution. Instead, it seems that these new players are putting everything under the microscope, which in turn makes bad transfers look worse.

Here's the rub. I bought the 3910 to replace a Kenwood Sovereign 5700 (it also uses a Faroujda chip), and I consistently like the picture quality of the Kenwood better. I see no banding or MB problems with that player. But, I'm and audiophile at heart, and I like the sound quality of the 3910 much better that the Kenwood. What to do, what to do . . .

I think I've solved the issue I've described as "graininess". I was switching between several DVD's and noticed some had a significant amount of grain (Italian Job - dark scenes) whereas others virtually had none (Spiderman). I attribute this difference to transfer quality and processing...not the 3910. Someone mentioned how impressive Hotel Rwanda was in terms of PQ. I would have to agree. I viewed this movie in Vivid mode and found little grain.

Anyway, I have a Sony GWIII KF50WE610. It has three picture mode settings: Vivid, Standard and Pro

I found that the "graininess" in part was due to these settings. Vivid had the most since it performs some other processing on the picture (from what I've read in the GWIII Owner's thread). I found that using Standard or Pro with the lower quality DVD's greatly reduced grain and improved my viewing pleasure. :)

I calibrated for all three settings so I could simply switch the picture mode when necessary. I would suggest the same with your model of TV if you have similar picture mode settings.

Guys,

I just got my Swan Diva 6.1 main speakers!! woohooo..

anyway, how many of you are running your front main setup in your 3910 as "Large"? i was told to keep it at "small" because the real difference is only in the LFE signal being sent to the subwoofer, etc...

can anyone confirm what the best setup is?

Yes ssabripo -- this is one case where "small" is better!! :D

ssabripo, congrats on your new toys :D

I think "small" directs all bass lower than the receiver's crossover setting to the sub.

Originally posted by mismatched
Yes ssabripo -- this is one case where "small" is better!! :D


then, I should fit in quite nicely http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/kekekegay.gif

Originally posted by jazzcat
ssabripo, congrats on your new toys :D

I think "small" directs all bass lower than the receiver's crossover setting to the sub.

you mean lower than the 3910's crossover setting, right? I dont see how the denon would anticipate the RX's crossover point.....maybe I misunderstood you.:confused:

Yes, I didn't state that right. The 3910 crossover settings. My question is if you are using digital coax out, all settings revert to the receiver crossover and speaker settings? I think that is the case; hopefully someone can chime in here on that one.

I am talking strictly analog here....obviously, if you are using digital out, the RX settings come into play, when using analog (specially for DVDA and SACD), this is where I wanted to see what the "large" vs "small" would do...

sounds like "small" would be just fine...

Originally posted by ssabripo
I am talking strictly analog here....obviously, if you are using digital out, the RX settings come into play, when using analog (specially for DVDA and SACD), this is where I wanted to see what the "large" vs "small" would do...

sounds like "small" would be just fine...


Greetings,

Gentlemen, small is the way to go.

Mark, using a digital audio output, the Xover settings on the receiver or pre/pro would determine the xover points.


Regards,

Hi Ralph, That sounds right but where I am confused is when reading the 3805/5900 set up .pdf

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/5900_3805%20setup%20tips.pdf

Where it says to set all speakers to large in step 3. But I take it that it might apply to Denon Link vs. SACD playback?

Cheers

I would not set the speaker size arbitrarily to small when using the analog outs. If you have 5 full range speakers, which is the optimum for MCh playback, then you would want to set it to large. Or, if you are using an outboard crossover such as the ICBM you would set it to large and have the ICBM do the crossing over over individual speakers.

Most folks do not have 5 full rangers so setting to small would be prudent for them.

Depending on equipment I would try it both ways and find which sounds best.

Originally posted by jazzcat
Hi Ralph, That sounds right but where I am confused is when reading the 3805/5900 set up .pdf

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/5900_3805%20setup%20tips.pdf

Where it says to set all speakers to large in step 3. But I take it that it might apply to Denon Link vs. SACD playback?

Cheers

During SACD playback the speaker setting are overridden anyway and everything is set to large.

Originally posted by keenan
I would not set the speaker size arbitrarily to small when using the analog outs. If you have 5 full range speakers, which is the optimum for MCh playback, then you would want to set it to large. Or, if you are using an outboard crossover such as the ICBM you would set it to large and have the ICBM do the crossing over over individual speakers.

Most folks do not have 5 full rangers so setting to small would be prudent for them.

Depending on equipment I would try it both ways and find which sounds best.

Can someone tell me why speakers that do not reproduce 20Hz - 20KHz are commonly thought of as "large"? To me, 20-20k response is the only "full range" (large) there is. If you speakers benefit from a subwoofer, then they are not full range. Not many of us can afford real "large" speakers.

Seeking enlightenment,

Jeff

I would call that full range, 20-20, but keep in mind that there is very, very little audio output for music past maybe 50Hz. I would suggest that if your speakers are flat out to around 50Hz or so they could be deemed full range. Others would argue differently....

A SW will have the most value when used with movie soundtrack playback, of course, there is probably some electronic music that moves a fair amount of low frequency air...

Originally posted by keenan
During SACD playback the speaker setting are overridden anyway and everything is set to large.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that if you set your speakers to "Small" for Multi Channel playback, then this setting only applies to DVD Audio when using the analog outs (i.e. the crossover setting has no effect for SACD)? If so that's news to me.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that if you set your speakers to "Small" for Multi Channel playback, then this setting only applies to DVD Audio when using the analog outs (i.e. the crossover setting has no effect for SACD)? If so that's news to me.

Bass management is applied to SACD within the 3910, though the unit has to convert the signal from the native DSD format to PCM to do so. If you are a hardcore SACD purist, this may not be for you, but I'm sure the difference in sound quality is minimal. The need to convert the signal is the reason you did not have bass management for SACD until recently. Denon basically did a workaround, to um, make it work. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by JBaumgart
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that if you set your speakers to "Small" for Multi Channel playback, then this setting only applies to DVD Audio when using the analog outs (i.e. the crossover setting has no effect for SACD)? If so that's news to me.

When used in conjunction with Denon Link the 3910/5900 will switch to Source-Direct when an SACD signal is sensed and send the output to the analog outputs. All other signals are automatically sent over Denon Link. When in Source-Direct mode all speaker setting are bypassed.

When used without Denon Link the settings remain valid as far as I know, although for SACD playback you can either have level and delay or BM, but not both. Which would mean the same I believe for DVD-A playback. This is why I personally use an ICBM, I can have delay and level set by the player and still have, albeit analog, BM on SACD material.

To be honest I have not delved into this in awhile but I believe the above to be correct.

When in Source Direct mode playing an SACD, are the speaker level and distance settings ignored as well? That is, does the 3910 do speaker level/distance adjustments when in Source Direct mode for SACD's?

uzun.....
When in Source Direct mode playing an SACD, are the speaker level and distance settings ignored as well?

Yes.