Originally posted by hifisponge
Bass management is applied to SACD within the 3910, though the unit has to convert the signal from the native DSD format to PCM to do so. If you are a hardcore SACD purist, this may not be for you, but I'm sure the difference in sound quality is minimal. The need to convert the signal is the reason you did not have bass management for SACD until recently. Denon basically did a workaround, to um, make it work. :rolleyes:

So what do you have to do to playback SACD in its native DSD format? Is that even possible?

Have full range speakers equal distant from your listening position hooked up to amps via analog connections, (so that way no downconversion needs to happen for Bass Managment and volume levels setting, audio delays etc.)
OR
Get an iLink compatable pre/pro (probably the best bet, nice and easy as well)

HDMI may soon support direct DSD transfer as well in the near future, we'll see.

:)

If you turn SOURCE DIRECT ON, SACD's will be kept in their native DSD format.

With source direct ON, when playing DVD-Audio discs are the speaker level and distance settings also ignored? (Assuming you are using the analog 5.1 outs that is).

Yep,
as far as my understanding goes, SOURCE DIRECT is exactly that. It plays it directly as recorded on the disc.

That is why, if you use that setting for DVD-A and SACD, you'd preferably want full range speakers, all at the same levels/distances. Because that is what the original source was recorded for.

The only 'work around' you may have (for those without iLink), all depends on the pre/pre amp you have.

Some people, can set their 3910 to SOURCE DIRECT ON, so the signal is not being altered in anyway at the DVD player, and you will get the full resolution audio (all channels will be full frequency range, same levels, no BM, etc.)
These signals will then be sent to the pre/pro/amps Multi Channel Input via analog connections.

Now SOME pre/pro/amps have the ability to process the signal that comes in via the Multi Channel Input. So you get the unaltered signal into the amp and then IT does all the level settings, distances and BM etc. (NOTE: Make sure you check the pre/pro specs though, because alot of the ones that allow you to 'process' the Multi Channel Input, do the same thing as the DVD player does, they downconvert the signal (DSD etc.) to an 'easy to handle' PCM signal)
However, most general pre/pro/amps can't do this anyway, they will play whatever comes in via the Multi Channel input as they get it, so you'll still be in the same situation.

But generally, i think you will be hard pressed to hear the difference between having Source Direct On or Off.
SO i wouldn't worry about it too much IMO :)

Cheers
KJ

Originally posted by Krazykaj
Have full range speakers equal distant from your listening position hooked up to amps via analog connections, (so that way no downconversion needs to happen for Bass Managment and volume levels setting, audio delays etc.)
OR
Get an iLink compatable pre/pro (probably the best bet, nice and easy as well)

HDMI may soon support direct DSD transfer as well in the near future, we'll see.

:)

Thanks for the info guys.

I am looking at the Outlaw 990 and the Anthem AVM30 but neither have iLink or HDMI. Don't want to spend + $4000 on a Lexicon and want balanced outputs to boot.

Not too picky, eh? :rolleyes:

as far as my understanding goes, SOURCE DIRECT is exactly that. It plays it directly as recorded on the disc. That is why, if you use that setting for DVD-A and SACD, you'd preferably want full range speakers, all at the same levels/distances. Because that is what the original source was recorded for. Not true. Distance & level STILL work when Source Direct is engaged, for any surround format!

This is from page 38 of the 3910 manual:

SOURCE DIRECT:

This permits a setting to output the audio without adding speaker settings or channel level processing to the audio signals of DVD-A and SACD.

:confused:

This permits a setting to output the audio without adding speaker settings or channel level processing to the audio signals of DVD-A and SACD. My bad. I was wrong about the levels, but it definitely still works for the delay (when they say speaker settings, they mean small vs. large).

..but it definitely still works for the delay..

Larry: I beg to differ. I think channel level is easier to allow than the speaker distance; so if channel level is disabled in Source Direct, very likely speaker distance too is disabled. Besides, speaker distance compensation without channel level tweakability during Source Direct defies logic for its usefullness in my view.

Like Simply Orange orange juice (http://www.simplyorangejuice.com/terms.shtml), Source Direct is "simply unfooled around with." That's why it's called Source Direct. He**, even adding a volume control to the circuit probably adulterates the signal a wee bit.

Just to make sure I have this right:

If I DON'T use Source Direct for SACD the 3910 will convert the signal to PCM and the settings I have selected in the 3910 for crossover, level, and distance all remain intact for SACD right? This is via the 5.1 analog connections.

These settings are all valid for DVD-A regardless of whether or not I use Source Direct on the analog connections, correct?

Source Direct ON will bypass all speaker settings/bass management for all sources at analog connection. In other words, all speakers are now LARGE and subwoofer is YES for LFE purpose only (and not for bass-redirection).

Originally posted by jazzcat
Thanks for the info guys.

I am looking at the Outlaw 990 and the Anthem AVM30 but neither have iLink or HDMI. Don't want to spend + $4000 on a Lexicon and want balanced outputs to boot.

Not too picky, eh? :rolleyes:

Keep us posted on your final decision. I'm looking at the AVM30 as well.

Not to get to far off topic but have you looked at the Rotel 1098 to match with your 3910?

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Keep us posted on your final decision. I'm looking at the AVM30 as well.

Not to get to far off topic but have you looked at the Rotel 1098 to match with your 3910?

I'm using a 1066 with my 3910 and it is quite something, what a piece of hardware this player is, it really took audio and video to the next level. :D

SC

Originally posted by JohnGZ28
Keep us posted on your final decision. I'm looking at the AVM30 as well.

Not to get to far off topic but have you looked at the Rotel 1098 to match with your 3910?

John, I prefer using balanced outputs to my 4 amps. I already ordered the cables for them at Cobalt.

The AVM30 is a great sounding piece of equipment. Just that the Outlaw has sparked my attention a bit.

I just got a call from Tweeter where I bought it and they said they have a package with my name and address on it that was delivered to their store!

They ripped off the paper where I had the FedEx envelope covering the Tweeter barcode and UPS scanned the wrong barcode!

I am leaving now to get it. I never got an email notification either, but it only took a week.

I need a beer

Originally posted by jazzcat
I just got a call from Tweeter where I bought it and they said they have a package with my name and address on it that was delivered to their store!

They ripped off the paper where I had the FedEx envelope covering the Tweeter barcode and UPS scanned the wrong barcode!

I am leaving now to get it. I never got an email notification either, but it only took a week.

I need a beer

When sending equipment around the country, or the world for that matter, I ALWAYS pack the original box inside of another shipping box. May cost a little more, but to me it's worth it....

Dont drink and drive. www.budweiser.com

Originally posted by kevinca1
Dont drink and drive. www.budweiser.com

LOL, I waited until I got home. :D

So what's the verdict, jazzcat? BTB? What firmware did you send it in with?

Hi Sam, I didn't hook it up yet as I just sold my Denon 3805 and the HT is a mess right now. I will hook DVI up tomorrow to verify version. I sent it in with -8.

I am confident they fixed the BTB issue from other feedback I have from those that have sent theirs in. I still have a hard time believing that it is a firmware issue. I think they made a hardware change in mid August and had to fix it.

I guess we can watch a movie tomorrow night with audio output to the Sammy DLP. Oh boy! what a surround experience! :D

Originally posted by jazzcat
I am confident they fixed the BTB issue from other feedback I have from those that have sent theirs in. I still have a hard time believing that it is a firmware issue. I think they made a hardware change in mid August and had to fix it.


I think I remember reading somewhere back the thread that they said it IS a firmware issue, just not the firmware that we've all been flashing. "No user-serviceable parts inside." as they say.

Originally posted by Carbo
You can download them. I just did. You just enter the serial number and model umber and it tells you if you need it or not. Mine was already installed by someone but it thought I needed it anyway.

Where do you download the updated Firmware Carbo ??

Thx!!

- Cain

What puzzles me is that if it is only a "firmware" change and no HW fix involved, then why not make the Software available for us to flash ourselves? (just like any other firmware upgrade)....

Shipping it to a service center tells me immediately that it requires opening the player and at the very least tinkering with some HW

Here in Australia, Denon do not allow us to do any firmware/software update of any kind by ourselves, we need to take the player to the place of purchase or some sort of authorized dealer/service agent, and have Proof of Purchase to have anything done at all. They won't send a disc out or anything.

You guys are lucky you can download it :)
Maybe, for this particular update (if it is SW), they are just trying to control it? I don't know why, but who knows.

Anyways

Cheers
KJ

Originally posted by ssabripo
What puzzles me is that if it is only a "firmware" change and no HW fix involved, then why not make the Software available for us to flash ourselves? (just like any other firmware upgrade)....

Shipping it to a service center tells me immediately that it requires opening the player and at the very least tinkering with some HW

I take from their explanation that the case must be opened to access the hardware which needs its firmware changed. Off hand, I can't imagine what part that would be - something in the video circuitry no doubt.

Originally posted by ssabripo
What puzzles me is that if it is only a "firmware" change and no HW fix involved, then why not make the Software available for us to flash ourselves? (just like any other firmware upgrade)....

Shipping it to a service center tells me immediately that it requires opening the player and at the very least tinkering with some HW

I suspect that it wasn't just a firmware flash needed. Maybe they got a new supplier (cheaper or existing part no longer available) for a hardware component around mid August when all this BTB stuff started happening and had to replace it. If it is a simple firmware upgrade, why couldn't any authorized service center do it?

Cain, there is a download section where you put in your model # and serial #.

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

I saw the 5910 in action yesterday at the Stereophile Home Entertainment Show yesterday. Preliminary report, WHOA! It was running to the JVC HD2k (another WHOA!) via component to the Realta (Terranex) outboard processing. The 5910 has the same chip and it looks as good as anything you've ever seen. Of course you need a display that can accept the high def input from the 5910. I think it's as good as a standard def (480) source is gonna get. The dilemma is figuring out if it's worth the investment since HD DVD is coming and there are hints that SONY is making a deal with Toshiba to avoid a format war.. the saga continues..

Originally posted by Cain
Where do you download the updated Firmware - Cain

Here! (http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp)

Originally posted by ssabripo
What puzzles me is that if it is only a "firmware" change and no HW fix involved, then why not make the Software available for us to flash ourselves? (just like any other firmware upgrade)....

Shipping it to a service center tells me immediately that it requires opening the player and at the very least tinkering with some HW


According to Denon Germany the 3910 requires a hardware modification to fix the BTB problem for the analog video output but will only require a software update to fix it for HDMI/DVI outputs. In any case I will have to take it to my dealer.

Mike

Originally posted by Mike2005
According to Denon Germany the 3910 requires a hardware modification to fix the BTB problem for the analog video output but will only require a software update to fix it for HDMI/DVI outputs. In any case I will have to take it to my dealer.

Mike

Good to know. Thanks! If a software fix for HDMI/DVI is all it takes, wonder why they wouldn't just release the software update for us? Perhaps it's just a matter of time. I'd rather not send my unit back to Denon.

so what I dont understand is why Denon did not offer us a software update if we only use HDMI or DVI connections!!??? :mad:

I already sent my unit back! @$%!$#%#!$

Originally posted by mattbugz
Good to know. Thanks! If a software fix for HDMI/DVI is all it takes, wonder why they wouldn't just release the software update for us? Perhaps it's just a matter of time. I'd rather not send my unit back to Denon.

It did not sound like it was the "software" that we're updating when we flash the unit; it sounded like it was something that was accessible only inside the case. I could be wrong though. But if it is the firmware we update, and they already have the fix, why not incorporate it?

Originally posted by mismatched
so what I dont understand is why Denon did not offer us a software update if we only use HDMI or DVI connections!!??? :mad:

I already sent my unit back! @$%!$#%#!$

That would be foolhardy on Denon's part, how do they or you know for certain that you won't be using those analog outputs for something in the future. Denon should be commended for insisting on fixing the problem the right way and not just a half done patch.

Originally posted by pepar
It did not sound like it was the "software" that we're updating when we flash the unit; it sounded like it was something that was accessible only inside the case. I could be wrong though. But if it is the firmware we update, and they already have the fix, why not incorporate it?

It's probably not just firmware, more likely some code that needed to be re-written on one of the chips that may only be accessible by a direct tap or through the serial port.

I do appreciate Keenan's point but I am out $71 in shipping costs! :mad:

Originally posted by mismatched
I do appreciate Keenan's point but I am out $71 in shipping costs! :mad:

Seventy-one dollars?!?! Good grief, did you sent it via overnight bicycle courier? :)

Originally posted by pepar
Seventy-one dollars?!?!

:)

He probably sent it expedited from one coast to the other in addition to shipping insurance for a $1400 or so. $70+...ouch, but I"m not surprised.

Originally posted by mattbugz
:)

He probably sent it expedited from one coast to the other in addition to shipping insurance for a $1400 or so. $70+...ouch, but I"m not surprised.

Me neither, it cost me about $150 to overnight my 5900 to JVB Digital. I would not send something like this any other way but overnight, far less handling. Trust me, I used to work in the transportation industry and you do not want that equipment being bounced from one truck to the next clear across the country.

Originally posted by keenan
Me neither, it cost me about $150 to overnight my 5900 to JVB Digital. I would not send something like this any other way but overnight, far less handling. Trust me, I used to work in the transportation industry and you do not want that equipment being bounced from one truck to the next clear across the country.

Or, alternatively, insure it for full retail price and give it to the worst carrier you can find.

Originally posted by pepar
Or, alternatively, insure it for full retail price and give it to the worst carrier you can find.

Problem there is you wait 4 - 6 months for your money!

I did 2nd day FedEx. Less time in transit, the less time to get destroyed like keenan said. Funny thing though, in the repair order I clearly asked for 3 day return and I would pay the upcharge but they never responded. It came to Tweeter ground.

Originally posted by jazzcat
Problem there is you wait 4 - 6 months for your money!

I did 2nd day FedEx. Less time in transit, the less time to get destroyed like keenan said. Funny thing though, in the repair order I clearly asked for 3 day return and I would pay the upcharge but they never responded. It came to Tweeter ground.

Kind of makes one wonder if they read repair orders . . .

Well, I dont know if I will send mine back or not....paying $75 or whatever for 2-day shipping, and knowing I wont see a difference whatsover in PQ, not to mention a week or so of downtime, doesn't give me a good warm feeling...

I may just keep it as is...

Can someone please explain the difference between Enhanced Black versus the IRE settings??

Here's what I have thus far:
Enhanced Black (HDMI/DVI Black Level
- Only affects HDMI/DVI input
- Changes RGB video level from 16-Black/235-White to 0-Black/246-White

IRE 0 and IRE 7.5 - The manual offers just a vague explanation
- Corrects floating black

Upon further investigation, I found THIS (http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/378652/an/0/page/0) link in addition to THIS (http://www.videoessentials.com/ve_d_faqplayer.php) link from DVE.

Basically, using 0 increases the black range. (0 Black to 100 White as opposed to 7.5 Black to 100 White) It's derived from how Black was represented by voltage. The IRE range is similar to what Enhanced Black is doing to the RGB range.

Obviously, they both affect black levels, but aside from the fact that Enhanced Black only works with HDMI/DVI, I'm not quite sure what the practical difference is between the two. Audioholics recommends setting Enhanced Black and Secrets recommends setting the IRE. I've tested both ways, but have not determined a best way.

Please enlighten me. Maybe it would also help if I knew what IRE is an acronym for! :)

Am I the only one who's infuriated by the fact that I have to pay shipping and insurance to have the BTB problem fixed? I paid full price at an authorized dealer for this machine, and it does not operate as promised. If my neighbor paid full price for his 3910, and it does pass BTB, how is it fair that I have to pay additional money to make my machine operate like my neighbor's? This was Denon's fault! Denon should eat the cost of their mistake.

Originally posted by mattbugz
Maybe it would also help if I knew what IRE is an acronym for! :)

Acronym for Institute of Radio Engineers. The Institute of Radio Engineers was founded in 1912 -- the second organization that would eventually merge to found the IEEE in 1963. IRE units are a linear scale for measuring the relative amplitude of the component of a television signal with a zero reference at the blanking level.

Makes perfect sense! :)

Originally posted by terrysmirl
Am I the only one who's infuriated by the fact that I have to pay shipping and insurance to have the BTB problem fixed? I paid full price at an authorized dealer for this machine, and it does not operate as promised. If my neighbor paid full price for his 3910, and it does pass BTB, how is it fair that I have to pay additional money to make my machine operate like my neighbor's? This was Denon's fault! Denon should eat the cost of their mistake. My authorized dealer will ship it for me & give me a loaner in the meantime. Yours should do the same.

My authorized dealer will ship it for me & give me a loaner in the meantime. Yours should do the same.
May I ask who your dealer is? Or is that against forum rules?

I just spoke with my dealer, and they said they'd be happy to exchange my machine for something else or give me a refund, even though I'm well past the 30 day trial period. But when I asked if they would pay the cost of shipping my machine to Denon for the fix, they said no can do. I'm pretty certain a new 3910 would have the same problem with BTB, so I don't know what to do....

Check with your store if they have a D3910 box with the "upgrade-circles" filled in.
Then you can simply exchange your player with an upgraded one.

Audio Breakthroughs, on Long Island.

Check with your store if they have a D3910 box with the "upgrade-circles" filled in.
That's a good idea, except I'm not totally convinced that this circle thing really indicates whether or not the machine passes BTB...although I must confess I'm not sure I really understand how to read the circles. My box has no circles at all, and from what I've read in this thread, that's supposed to mean that my machine was manufactured before the BTB problem started and thus should have no problem with BTB...yet mine does not pass BTB.

I'll see what the dealer says.

Originally posted by terrysmirl
That's a good idea, except I'm not totally convinced that this circle thing really indicates whether or not the machine passes BTB...although I must confess I'm not sure I really understand how to read the circles. My box has no circles at all, and from what I've read in this thread, that's supposed to mean that my machine was manufactured before the BTB problem started and thus should have no problem with BTB...yet mine does not pass BTB.

I'll see what the dealer says.

Your build date?? If July or earlier you should be okay!

Originally posted by terrysmirl
That's a good idea, except I'm not totally convinced that this circle thing really indicates whether or not the machine passes BTB...although I must confess I'm not sure I really understand how to read the circles. My box has no circles at all, and from what I've read in this thread, that's supposed to mean that my machine was manufactured before the BTB problem started and thus should have no problem with BTB...yet mine does not pass BTB.

How did you ascertain that your unit did not pass BTB?

Your build date?? If July or earlier you should be okay!
It was built in August.
How did you ascertain that your unit did not pass BTB?
I am unable to see the shadow behind the THX logo in the THX optimizer. I'm using HDMI, and I've tried every possible adjustment on the 3910 (and on my Sony KDF-55XS955) with no luck.

Originally posted by Martin Butler
I saw the 5910 in action yesterday at the Stereophile Home Entertainment Show yesterday. Preliminary report, WHOA! It was running to the JVC HD2k (another WHOA!) via component to the Realta (Terranex) outboard processing. The 5910 has the same chip and it looks as good as anything you've ever seen. Of course you need a display that can accept the high def input from the 5910. I think it's as good as a standard def (480) source is gonna get. The dilemma is figuring out if it's worth the investment since HD DVD is coming and there are hints that SONY is making a deal with Toshiba to avoid a format war.. the saga continues..

Martin or anyone else that knows,

Have you been able to compare the 3910 to the 5910 and if so what did you think of the difference ? Is it worth the price difference ?

nelson, sorry, no chance for comparisons at a demonstration, just an impression that the 5910 has the best DVD picture I've ever seen.

I delivered my D3910 for the BTB upgrade today at my local HiFi-Store. (Norway).
They confirmed that the player needs to exchange a hardware-chip.
It's not only an internal software upgrade.
They mentioned that it possibly might be sent to Denon Denmark for the upgrade, but they were not sure.
It doesn't matter here in Norway anyway, because we simply return the player to the store of purchase, and they do shipping and insurance.

Originally posted by terrysmirl
It was built in August.

I am unable to see the shadow behind the THX logo in the THX optimizer. I'm using HDMI, and I've tried every possible adjustment on the 3910 (and on my Sony KDF-55XS955) with no luck.

Yep, that's it.

We seem to have been left to speculate, while our mates from around the world have been told exactly what the "upgrade" is for passing BTB. But hey, these threads would be a whole lot shorter without speculation. :)

Originally posted by tor ove
I delivered my D3910 for the BTB upgrade today at my local HiFi-Store. (Norway).
They confirmed that the player needs to exchange a hardware-chip.
It's not only an internal software upgrade.


Just as I suspected. Wonder why they told you that (which is probably the truth) when at Denon USA, mum's the word. All it takes is a firmware flash. :rolleyes:

If they really changed any hardware, they would mention it on the repair-sheet that accopmanies the "remedied" unit. In my case, they didn't. The activities they reported as services performed on my unit included laser pick-up lens cleaning and firmware upgrade. This lens cleaning can easily be done by a cleaning CD with tiny section of brush; and my careful inspection of chassis screws don't reveal any sign of opening the hood (though it can be opened without leaving any marks with their tools I guess).

Maybe during the laser pickup cleaning a new chip happened to "fall" into the unit without anyone noticing and the blacker than black issue was resolved :)

Dave

On a second thought, there might be a catch too in what Denon USA is saying. Firmware upgrade can either be done simply by flashing a chip without physically removing it; or a new chip with new firmware can physically replace the old one; and this process can still technically be termed as "firmware upgrade!"

Originally posted by Martin Butler
I saw the 5910 in action yesterday at the Stereophile Home Entertainment Show yesterday.

To ask the obvious; any news on SACD over Denon Link at the Show? :(

I Just recently Received my Refurb Unit from Ubid which is an authorize refurb seller for Denon. The Price was Less than half of MRSP. The unit is perfect in every aspect no cosmetic blemishs and all original packaging.

Build Date is June 2004. I'm guessing that this will pass BTB. Although I really don't know much about BTB although I do have the AVIA disc.

I have the 3910 connected to the 3805 via Denon link and the video out of the 3910 via HDMI. How do I check BTB? Also Can I listen to DVD audio with just the DenonLInk? I guess I can't listen to SCAD via Denon Link unless I do additional wiring and setting change which is too much of a headache at this time for me.


Thanks

BTW, the Denon fix corrects the BTB issue. Now it is a whole lot easier to adjust brightness :)

RADMANK, you are correct; SACD is not passed via Denonlink. You need 6 analog cables. Then there is no settings to do. If you put in a SACD it will go to analog EXT IN. If your build date is June, it will pass BTB. Avia does not have a BTB pluge pattern. You need DVE or look for the THX BTB shadow on a THX DVD set-up screen.

Good price too!

Which movies have the THX set-up screen? Do the Star Wars IV-VI box set, or the extended version Lord of the Rings box set? Is the set-up screen in the main menu for the movie?

Originally posted by jigesh
This lens cleaning can easily be done by a cleaning CD with tiny section of brush; and my careful inspection of chassis screws don't reveal any sign of opening the hood (though it can be opened without leaving any marks with their tools I guess).

I seem to remember hearing that the "cleaning CD" is NOT a good idea as it may jostle the laser out of alignment. A stream of compressed air - from the can - should be used to gently dislodge and remove any dust.

Bill, the set up screen is in the menu. Hard to get to the first time. I have Star Wars - AOTC DVD and it is on that. Any THX Lucasfilm should have it. I don't think LOTR is THX.

Originally posted by pepar
I seem to remember hearing that the "cleaning CD" is NOT a good idea as it may jostle the laser out of alignment. A stream of compressed air - from the can - should be used to gently dislodge and remove any dust.

That has always been my belief as well, I would not use one of those CDs with the brush on it either.

Originally posted by BillP
Which movies have the THX set-up screen? Do the Star Wars IV-VI box set, or the extended version Lord of the Rings box set? Is the set-up screen in the main menu for the movie?

Our versions of the Star Wars box we have here in Aus is THX (Says so on a banner on the front) and so it will have the THX optimiser.

It is usually in the setup options where you change the sound language, subtitles etc.

Nemo and The incredibles is another couple that have the THX optimizer on it..

Originally posted by RADMANK
I Just recently Received my Refurb Unit from Ubid which is an authorize refurb seller for Denon. The Price was Less than half of MRSP. The unit is perfect in every aspect no cosmetic blemishs and all original packaging.

Build Date is June 2004. I'm guessing that this will pass BTB. Although I really don't know much about BTB although I do have the AVIA disc.

Thanks

Radmank,
I, too have a refurb from Ubid which I got about a month ago and my build date is also June. Mine definitely DOES pass BTB, so yours should also.

Has anyone contacted Denon about SDI-upgraded versions of the 3910. I called JVBdigital, whom I bought my player from, and they had not heard of the BTB fix. Before I called Denon, I figured I'd see if anyone has had any experience with this already.

Hello, and it's Norway again.
I explained earlier, I returned my player to the local store Saturday.
At that point, the store was uncertain if the unit would be sent to Denmark.
They called med today and told med the BTB-upgrade-chip will be sent to my store and they'll exchange it there.
In my eyes this gives us the following:
1. There is need for opening the device.
2. There is in fact a hardware upgrade/replacement.
3. Rumors regarding an internal software upgrade should be put aside.

I'll get back to you when I get my player back, hopefully Wednesday.

Originally posted by tor ove
Hello, and it's Norway again.
I explained earlier, I returned my player to the local store Saturday.
At that point, the store was uncertain if the unit would be sent to Denmark.
They called med today and told med the BTB-upgrade-chip will be sent to my store and they'll exchange it there.
In my eyes this gives us the following:
1. There is need for opening the device.
2. There is in fact a hardware upgrade/replacement.
3. Rumors regarding an internal software upgrade should be put aside.

I'll get back to you when I get my player back, hopefully Wednesday.

1. This was already determined.
2. So was this.
3. Not necessarily; just because there is a chip replacement doesn't mean there is also not a firmware upgrade happening as well. What's more, the store may be "technically challenged' and they're being sent the - firmware-upgraded - chip to swap.

Originally posted by pepar
3. Not necessarily; just because there is a chip replacement doesn't mean there is also not a firmware upgrade happening as well. What's more, the store may be "technically challenged' and they're being sent the - firmware-upgraded - chip to swap.

Exactly. It's highly dependent on what "chip" is replaced. It could be a ROM chip being replaced or perhaps a section of flash that is inaccessible through normal firmware upgrade procedures (boot disk).

I would be curious to find out what part gets sent to your dealer. Perhaps you can examine it before it's replaced/installed??

I would be curious to find out what part gets sent to your dealer. Perhaps you can examine it before it's replaced/installed??

Me too. If friendly relationship, may be your dealer can supply you IC number/manufacturer or part number ??

Thank you.

Boy, it could be a godsend if the chip is a simple remove and replace using a chip-puller.... and if I could get one of these chips and the location of the chip to be replaced.

My 3910 is modded and I cannot send it back to Denon to be upgraded... :(

Originally posted by merc
Boy, it could be a godsend if the chip is a simple remove and replace using a chip-puller.... and if I could get one of these chips and the location of the chip to be replaced.

My 3910 is modded and I cannot send it back to Denon to be upgraded... :(

I chipped my M3 and added K&N intake and SS exhaust system and my dealer still provided warranty service. If one of my mods had caused a problem, it would not have been covered. Otherwide, it was.

Just a thought . . .

Just a thought . . .I'd be more worried about some knucklehead at Denon NJ messing up the mod or with the tubed output stage being damaged in transit, than with Denon refusing to fix the chip problem...

Hell, I used to solder mods to Celerons to make them multi-processor capable... I'd guess I could perform the upgrade if given the chance. :D

Originally posted by merc
I'd be more worried about some knucklehead at Denon NJ messing up the mod or with the tubed output stage being damaged in transit, than with Denon refusing to fix the chip problem...

Hell, I used to solder mods to Celerons to make them multi-processor capable... I'd guess I could perform the upgrade if given the chance. :D

Good point.

I just called my dealer, and since I have gone over my 60 days, they wont exchange it but "they will be happy to send it back to Denon" for me for the BTB fix...

:mad:

So, no loaner, and the only thing I would save on potentially is the shipping costs....which no thanks, I rather cough up the $50 or whatever, and ship it myself in order to save time without my player.

I dont know, for now, I think I will not deal with this BTB issue...

Originally posted by ssabripo
I dont know, for now, I think I will not deal with this BTB issue...

I can't exchange it either, but my dealer is willing to ship it to Denon free of charge. However, I'm holding off for now. I just used the brightness pattern from Avia to calibrate black levels. They use two lines above BTB for black level calibration instead of the three with DVE and the drop shadow with THX.

Originally posted by Yates
Has anyone contacted Denon about SDI-upgraded versions of the 3910. I called JVBdigital, whom I bought my player from, and they had not heard of the BTB fix. Before I called Denon, I figured I'd see if anyone has had any experience with this already.

I don't know for sure, but I believe Denon will honor warranty work on a player that has a JVB Digital SDI mod. They approve certain MSB Technology mods so I can't imagine they wouldn't approve a JVB Digital mod.

I'm not sure sure about audio board mods such as tubes though.

Well, I bit. I watched the price of the 3910 rise and fall a couple of times and believe this was a good time to buy. I have read nearly every post and review on the unit and realized the time was right.

I purchased via military website which ships directly from Denon (from my experince). NO tax, no shipping and a great price of ----. I just hope I'm not being sent some left over piece of a return for one reason or another.

I had purchased my reciever via the same method, and have not a had a problem or glitch in the last 5 years+ (avr-4800) and it's been awsome. I was hesitant at first but read I have a 90 day return to base policy, so I figured how could I go wrong? I'll wait and see in up till then.

So if you purchased this unit, what tests/discs do you advise to use/test for flaws and setup??? I know of a couple, the aviaD and video essentials test, but do these test for the BTB issue that many document here?

Upon recieving, concerning testing, what info would you might like to know if it is a current unit being shipped? With the current firmware and "fixes" or not and visuall indicators of the box/serial#'s/back-of-unit, do you think thier is any info to gain for all the other thinkers out there?

KVB

Originally posted by kevinvb11
So if you purchased this unit, what tests/discs do you advise to use/test for flaws and setup??? I know of a couple, the aviaD and video essentials test, but do these test for the BTB issue that many document here?

Upon recieving, concerning testing, what info would you might like to know if it is a current unit being shipped? With the current firmware and "fixes" or not and visuall indicators of the box/serial#'s/back-of-unit, do you think thier is any info to gain for all the other thinkers out there?

Welcome to the club!!

DVE and THX Optimizer have tests for BTB. Avia uses a calibration pattern for black levels that are slightly above BTB. Check the build date on your unit and report back. Anytime before July 2004 should be unaffected by the BTB problem.

As for determining if your unit is upgraded with the BTB fix, look for two black circles near your serial number. Check the BTB thread for an example on how to determine this.

for circle check go to: http://www.kgjack.com/denon_3910.htm

kevinvb11

read the "rules" on this and other threads in the AVS forum. No discussion of prices in your posts! Use PM if you wish to compare advertise whatever prices!

Thanks for the info guys, I'll definately look out for the circles.

I updated the post to not reflect any price as well. Sorry if I offended anybody.

Originally posted by kevinvb11


I updated the post to not reflect any price as well. Sorry if I offended anybody.

Oh, it's not that you would offend any of us - other than those who paid much more :) - it's just that the forum owners do not want discussions of price. My guess is that it would "offend" forum member/vendors/advertisers selling at MSRP.

Has anyone had any problems with their DLink connection? I have had two failures of the DLink option since my purchase in September. The first time I thought it was just a cable problem and, in fact, replacing the cable fixed the issue. Today I had the failure again and have tried three different cables and none of them will correct the problem. If I try using DLink, the player will indicate ExtIN and will make no sound. I can, however, change the connection to digital coax and the audio will work great.
Any ideas other than taking it back to the dealer?
Thanks

read the "rules" on this and other threads in the AVS forum. No discussion of prices in your posts!Huh? Can this possibly be true? No discussion of the merits or performance of ANY component is relevant without discussing the price of the unit being discussed. Not allowing folks to mention the price of the unit, or the price they paid is utter BS, IMO.

For example, what is possibly wrong with this comment: "I bought my unit from my local authorized Denon dealer, Tweeter, at $1100 plus tax about a month ago."

Who could that possibly offend??? :rolleyes:

read the rules? ask the administrator for the justification of the rules.

Originally posted by merc


For example, what is possibly wrong with this comment: "I bought my unit from my local authorized Denon dealer, Tweeter, at $1100 plus tax about a month ago."

Who could that possibly offend??? :rolleyes:

People who sell it for more.

People who sell it for more.No, actually the authorized dealers who sell it for more offends us. Still, it is their business to put any price whatsoever on any component they desire... and it is our job to find the best authorized dealer pricing and to help our fellow members looking to buy that component.

Not allowing members to help other members with choosing and buying a component is a dis-service to the membership.

If having a higher price than the competition is offensive, the seller always has the option to match the competition's price and therefore, not be offended. ;)

Originally posted by merc
No, actually the authorized dealers who sell it for more offends us. Still, it is their business to put any price whatsoever on any component they desire... and it is our job to find the best authorized dealer pricing and to help our fellow members looking to buy that component.

Not allowing members to help other members with choosing and buying a component is a dis-service to the membership.

If having a higher price than the competition is offensive, the seller always has the option to match the competition's price and therefore, not be offended. ;)

You know, this makes perfect sense to me as a sharp shopper, but the nitty gritty of the assistance can come in the form of a PM. I have, in other threads, bemoaned my difficuty in finding a good price on component XYZ and had a number of PMs appear that solved my problem.

I'm thinking that right about now would be a good time for David or Larry to chime in . . .

Originally posted by merc
No, actually the authorized dealers who sell it for more offends us. Still, it is their business to put any price whatsoever on any component they desire... and it is our job to find the best authorized dealer pricing and to help our fellow members looking to buy that component.

Actually, the mission should be to help inform everyone about ALL buying options, whether authorized or not, and let the buyer make their choice.

You know, this makes perfect sense to me as a sharp shopper, but the nitty gritty of the assistance can come in the form of a PM. I have, in other threads, bemoaned my difficuty in finding a good price on component XYZ and had a number of PMs appear that solved my problem.This makes sense to me too, and has also been my experience as well. And, using PM to pass along good deals to those who want them also helps to cut down on vendors touting their own businesses... However, I see no harm and some good in allowing AVS members to mention where they got their unit and how much it cost them in order to help AVS members too shy to ask for help. It also allows all AVS members to get a feel for whether or not a component is a good buy and a good choice for them using the basic benefits vs cost analysis.

Anyone that pays MSRP for anything surely needs as much help as they can get. ;)

What exactly takes place when you use the firmware upgrade?

Originally posted by HDKing
What exactly takes place when you use the firmware upgrade?

Here's a general explanation. You update software on a portion of flash memory that runs the DVD player. This software can be the user interface (menu system you use to configure the DVD player) or it can be parts you can't see such as software that's used to interact with system components.

Originally posted by DennyH
Has anyone had any problems with their DLink connection? I have had two failures of the DLink option since my purchase in September. The first time I thought it was just a cable problem and, in fact, replacing the cable fixed the issue. Today I had the failure again and have tried three different cables and none of them will correct the problem. If I try using DLink, the player will indicate ExtIN and will make no sound. I can, however, change the connection to digital coax and the audio will work great.
Any ideas other than taking it back to the dealer?
Thanks

Have had no issues since connecting with Denon Link on Day 1 last summer (June 2004 build). Mine plays via Denon Link automatically on DVD and DVD Audio disks (I followed the setup instructions in the white paper on the Denon web site). I use RCA interconnects for CD and of course the analog Ext-In for SACD's. What receiver are you using?

Using the 3805.

I don't know what it could be because the 3805 should mate perfectly with the 3910 using Denon Link. I can't imagine that all those cables could be bad - has to be some other problem, which must be really irritating. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Originally posted by merc
For example, what is possibly wrong with this comment: "I bought my unit from my local authorized Denon dealer, Tweeter, at $1100 plus tax about a month ago."One of the reasons is rather simple. The moment you allow the P word (pricing) you can easily end up with thousands of threads with nothing but ads... most of them without any good intentions. For an example try viewing your typical newsgroup.

Everything you want to know about posting pricing info.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244337
Forum Rules : MSRP Pricing only/ no retail links: MUST READ before you post! - AVS Forum Archive

Originally posted by DennyH
Has anyone had any problems with their DLink connection? I have had two failures of the DLink option since my purchase in September. The first time I thought it was just a cable problem and, in fact, replacing the cable fixed the issue. Today I had the failure again and have tried three different cables and none of them will correct the problem. If I try using DLink, the player will indicate ExtIN and will make no sound. I can, however, change the connection to digital coax and the audio will work great.
Any ideas other than taking it back to the dealer?
Thanks

When you say failures, what exactly happens?

Probably a long shot, but have used a can of air and sprayed a couple of shots in the DLink jack receptacles?

One of the reasons is rather simple. The moment you allow the P word (pricing) you can easily end up with thousands of threads with nothing but ads... most of them without any good intentions.Pricing is just another quality of a component and is no less or more important than that components audio or video performance. Read just about any post here on AVS and you will find lots of "ads" which either tout or disparage a components performance.

As for members sharing their experiences on a component with the membership, mentioning the price they paid is no less important, to someone considering buying that unit, than are their experiences with regard to stuff like MB, passing BTB or lip un-sync.

Maybe, folks should start posting their experiences on a component like this:
I finally bought the Oppo 571H DVD player. I bought it from blank for blank and it arrived via blank, late yesterday, nicely double boxed. After calibrating it with blank and blank on my blank HDTV, I sat back and watched parts of 6 movies I knew to give some players problems. During that time, I saw no evidence of blank and the player blanked with out problems. I also saw no blank whatsoever during last nights viewing. I tried out the blank connection and could not get it to work, although that failure might have been user error involved.
Today, I plan to check out the players audio performance, although I don't have very high hopes for a player costing only blank. I'll report back here in this thread with whatever I find.
(Please PM me if you'd like me to fill in the blanks.)
:D :D :D

When you say failures, what exactly happens?

It will be playing wonderfully on Monday evening and I will finish for the evening and put it on standby, The next day I will turn it on and "EXT IN" will be in the display of the 3805 and there will be no audio. Changing the cables to coax will fix the problem. As I am writing this the realization blooms that the problem may be with the 3805 and not the 3910. DUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH.

Okay, back on topic....

Has anyone been able to get Denon to send them the chip and firmware fix for the BTB issue and not require them to send it back to NJ?

Or

Has anyone been able to have Denon send the parts and the new firmware to their local authorized dealer for installation?

Having to pay to send a brand new blank DVD player back to the manufacturer to fix a serious known defect, and, being without that player for up to a month without a comparable loaner, is just unacceptable.

Come on Denon Jeff, help us out here please!

I just got my "2-disc set" for the latest upgrade. I've been in contact with Jim at Denon who said the BTB issue MUST be sent in to NJ.

Having to pay to send a brand new blank DVD player back to the manufacturer to fix a serious known defect, and, being without that player for up to a month without a comparable loaner, is just unacceptable.
I agree with you so much that I accepted my dealer's offer to refund my money, even though I'm well past the thirty day trial period, and I'm replacing it with a cheapo as a temporary measure. I'll check back in a few months to see if Denon releases a new crop of these players sans the BTB problem, but frankly I think what Denon is doing here is nothing short of criminal. In fact I'll look seriously at the Onkyo and any other players before I buy another 3910. I also think it's too bad that so many users are allowing Denon get away with this by paying for Denon's mistake instead of demanding that Denon pay for their own mistake. Manufacturers should not be allowed to stick their customers with this kind of crap.

I've been in contact with Jim at Denon who said the BTB issue MUST be sent in to NJ.Thanks Gass. I'd also spoken on several occasions with Jim, who told me the same thing. However, there was one guy in this thread, or another 3910 thread, who said that Denon was sending in the replacement chip, new firmware, and the install instructions to his local Dealer for the fix. If that is the case, it may be that it is a fix that most anyone of us here on AVS could do?

It may be that all we need to do is pop the lid, pull a chip, replace it with the new one, replace the lid, and install the new firmware according to Denon's instructions.

My new 3910 has a $2500 audio mod on it, and I absolutely don't want to ship it more than I need to nor do I want some tech in NJ messing around with the mod. Ya think that Denon would cover any damage they might cause to the mod.... yeah right?

Since my unit's warranty is void after modding the unit, I don't see any problem with Denon sending me the upgrade stuff since they would bear no responsibilty if I broke the unit while upgrading it. I have a very good relationship with my local authorized dealer and would also be very open to taking in my player to have them install the fix while I watched. Maybe that would be the most acceptable solution to this problem for me?

Anyone seen Denon Jeff around here lately?

merc, the guy that had the chip sent to his dealer was not in the US. I would be concerned about sending a modded unit too!

I don't think Denon Jeff posts on this forum anymore. Some past comments didn't exactly make him feel too welcome I would suspect.

Originally posted by DennyH
It will be playing wonderfully on Monday evening and I will finish for the evening and put it on standby, The next day I will turn it on and "EXT IN" will be in the display of the 3805 and there will be no audio. Changing the cables to coax will fix the problem. As I am writing this the realization blooms that the problem may be with the 3805 and not the 3910. DUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH.

I assume you have done a re-set on the 3805 and re-done the complete set-up per the PDF at the Denon site for connecting the 3805 to a 3910/5900?

Originally posted by merc
My new 3910 has a $2500 audio mod on it, and I absolutely don't want to ship it more than I need to nor do I want some tech in NJ messing around with the mod. Ya think that Denon would cover any damage they might cause to the mod.... yeah right?

Since my unit's warranty is void after modding the unit, I don't see any problem with Denon sending me the upgrade stuff since they would bear no responsibilty if I broke the unit while upgrading it. I have a very good relationship with my local authorized dealer and would also be very open to taking in my player to have them install the fix while I watched. Maybe that would be the most acceptable solution to this problem for me?



Having a unit modded is always a concern when future upgrades from the manufacturer become available. It's simply one of the risks of modding equipment.

That said, have you called Denon and asked them what their position is with regards to modded equipment? My guess would be that unless the mod itself prevents the upgrade to be performed, like having to remove part of the mod to get to a chip for instance, I don't think Denon will have an issue with a modded piece of equipment. As popular as Denon is, they are still a fairly small company and my experiences with their tech and customer service have been very positive.

They may suggest you send the unit in, and after inspecting the unit, give you a yea or nay as far as whether they can do the BTB fix. Could be an expensive trip to find out they can't do it, but if you're willing to spend $2500 on a $1500 piece of equipment, I personally, would not have an issue with a $100-200 worth of shipping costs.

After all, this is a hobby(read:addiction) and we all know the hobby/addiction must be fed....:p :D

Originally posted by merc


My new 3910 has a $2500 audio mod on it, and I absolutely don't want to ship it more than I need to nor do I want some tech in NJ messing around with the mod. Ya think that Denon would cover any damage they might cause to the mod.... yeah right?

Good grief, merc! A $2500 mod to a $1500 player?! Whazzit do? And more importantly, how does it perform vis-a-vis - say - a $5000 player?

Merc, if it's a tube audio type of mod I would certainly remove the tubes before it's shipped, that should not effect anything as far as a video fix.

Without going into details, the mod is costing me nothing, but I did have to pay Tweeter $1100 + tax for the original new 3910. The player arrived at the modder yesterday, so I don't have any idea how good it will sound. If it sounds as good as the modded player it is replacing, I will be very happy indeed. :)

As it is, once I get back the modded 3910, I am not willing to ship it along to some un-named tech in NJ in order to fix a manufacturer's defect. If I cannot get the fix done at my local Tweeter or do it myself, I will probably just use the modded 3910 for audio only, and continue to use the Oppo for video playback since it DOES pass BTB.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help though...

Originally posted by merc
Pricing is just another quality of a component and is no less or more important than that components audio or video performance.Not true at all regarding this Forum. The component's audio and video performance deals with how you may like or dislike the unit. In most cases no one will have any invested interest in spamming the forum with such information. The moment you introduce pricing they have millions of reasons.

The component's audio and video performance deals with how you may like or dislike the unit. In most cases no one will have any invested interest in spamming the forum with such information.Sorry, but I disagree. Anyone who makes money from selling a Denon 3910 will be all too happy to tout it as the latest and greatest regardless of price. Only folks like us(I'm assuming you do not work in the industry) would most consider the performance of a component in the direct light of its' price. Without acquisition costs, performance reports are pie in the eye, so whats, IMO.

A good example of this is the Oppo. We might be willing to tolerate not passing BTB or having MB in that unit since we know it only costs $200. Those same problems are problematic in a unit costing $1100 and are simply unacceptable in a product costing $1400.

Although cost is just another factor to consider when looking to upgrade, for many of us, it is the first factor to consider and should be a part of every reveiw on every component, IMO.

Merc, have you read the info on the page I linked to earlier? You might find that it's a bit more liberal than you may think with regards to pricing info.

The thing to remember is, this is a privately owned and operated forum that requires membership to post. If the forum owners decide that we have to post all our text as pink characters, guess what, every post will be pink... :)

Another thing to remember, this Forum was created for the exchange of knowledge, not as a market place to sell goods. And when you allow price comparisons in such an atmosphere it can become very difficult to separate fiction from fact.

Originally posted by merc
Sorry, but I disagree. Anyone who makes money from selling a Denon 3910 will be all too happy to tout it as the latest and greatest regardless of price.You are still missing the point. They have no (real) vested interest until the moment you allow them to ACTUALLY SELL the item. Sure a vendor can come here and tout their product and they do it all of the time - just check the scaler Forum.

But if you declare pricing is fine within an hour you will have...

Thousands of threads by thousands of companies stating (script generated by the way)... I'm Joe and this is the best thing in the world. Oh and by the way I got a great deal from Sam for only $.99. His number is...

I can't begin to comprehend why you would want to put up with such a thing. Especially, as 99% of the people and information you value would leave shortly afterwards.

PS Please don't misquote me by taking the relevant first sentence out.

Thousands of threads by thousands of companies stating (script generated by the way)... I'm Joe and this is the best thing in the world. Oh and by the way I got a great deal from Sam for only $.99. His number is...They don't need anyone's permission to send script generated ads to forums. Anyone can do that now...but they don't. Because, that would be blatant spam for their retail goods and us members would tear them a new butthole. And, that is a world removed from me or you(if you are not in the industry) including how much we paid for our 3910 when we bought it.

In fact, the current system is probably preferrable by folks selling the Denon 3910 because they can tout the product and poo-poo the problems from the annonymity of their member status, while, restricting the market and increasing profits from the units they do sell as a result(partially) of their self-serving product promotion.

Instead, I'd prefer that vendor members be required to state who they are and then allow them to post their sale prices. Being upfront and honest can best serve AVS members, IMO. Of course, YMMV.

Hey guys, regarding posting pricing information, the point is MOOT. This is a private form with rules imposed by it's more than gracious hosts. If you don't like the rules, you have an option.

This is way off topic, start a new thread in the community forum if you want to debate the rules. There you can discuss them with their creators and owners. Let's leave this thread for the 3910 technical issues. It's long enough with just that.

Cheers,
Scott

Sounds Good Scott!

Now, how are we gonna get Denon to send us the parts/firmware needed to fix the manufacturer defect on these ($1199 or 1399 MSRP depending on which MSRP you use) units? ;)

Originally posted by merc
They don't need anyone's permission to send script generated ads to forums. Anyone can do that now...but they don't. Because, that would be blatant spam for their retail goods and us members would tear them a new butthole. That is not the reason at all. Just like spam somewhere else they work on .001 whatever % and could care less what you or I think.

The reason they don't do it (in my eyes) is because there is no way of hiding their spam since pricing is not allowed. The moment you did they would play the whatever odds I can get from 10 millions spams is fine with me.

Sure pricing has benefits but certainly not at the cost of running almost every person away for having to dig through 10 millions spam postings. Just like the poor guys who want some Denon 3910 info... we were running them away!

And since according to the rules you aren't supposed to complain about them in threads I'll stop defending them.

re: get the parts: I agree that would be sweet. I can't imagine why compainies don't allow it sometimes. The only reason I can think of in this case from my own microprocessor implementation experience is this: The unit may have a ICP chip (in circuit programmable). An eeprom or microprocessor that is reprogrammable, but is not removable. You typically connect a cable to the device and use a chip-specific piece of software to load it's code.

Even if it was an off-the-shelf integrated circuit (chip), it's unlike they would have socketed it since that a more complicated assembly process that's not typically automated. If it's a programmed processor or logic chip, then it may well be socketed but need a chip specific puller to get it out properly (and back in). And unfortunately, even if it's a off the shelf programmable part, they are going to have to load the code in the chip before installing. My point is you couldn't go to say National Semiconductor and order a MCU454201A and stuff it in and it work.

I expect it's one of these things that keeps them from sending out whatever the fix is. But you never know. I got an upgrade to my B&K receiver which was a circuit board with it's brain chip on it. They wouldn't send it to me, but would send it to tweeter. As if a noob salesperson has a clue about electronics. I made my purchase conditional that they let me do the swap, with them watching if needed. They agreed and I slipped on my anti-static wrist band and made the swap. Everyone was happy. Wish Denon wasn't so tight on the fix. Hell at least publically tell us what the fix is and the reasons for not allowing it. Its possible it is a fix that someone who knew what they were doing could accomplish without their involvement, if we knew what it was!

Glad I got a good (BTB) unit.

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by merc
Without going into details, the mod is costing me nothing, but I did have to pay Tweeter $1100 + tax for the original new 3910. The player arrived at the modder yesterday, so I don't have any idea how good it will sound. If it sounds as good as the modded player it is replacing, I will be very happy indeed. :)

As it is, once I get back the modded 3910, I am not willing to ship it along to some un-named tech in NJ in order to fix a manufacturer's defect. If I cannot get the fix done at my local Tweeter or do it myself, I will probably just use the modded 3910 for audio only, and continue to use the Oppo for video playback since it DOES pass BTB.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help though...
Have you directly compared the PQ? According to Kris, the 3910 has a better PQ than the Oppo (the Oppo has more MB and some chroma errors), so the 3910 may look better despite the BTB problem.

Have you directly compared the PQ?No Bill, I have not. I sent the 3910 to be modded and while it is gone, got the Oppo. I should be able to do a video AB in a few weeks when the 3910 gets back.

I am also running an unglamorous video setup as well which probably makes the small stuff moot. I am running upconverted 1080i via DVI/HDMI output to a Dtrovision DVI to RGB/VGA converter and then into my HDTV's RGB/VGA input. When I calibrated/tested my 3910 using Avia and VE, it appeared to pass BTB. Since then, I bought DVE and according to that calibration disc, does not pass BTB. It also does not have the filled in circles on the box either, so it does not have that fix. It is therefore degraded for resale value if and when I decide to sell it.

Then again, if and when I sell this to buy into HD-DVD, the buyer will probably be buying it moreso for the modded performance and less so for the video?

Finally, I always run two DVD players in my primary system so that my wife and kids can watch a movie without using my whole system. Therefore, since I am using the Oppo anyway, restricting the Denon for audio only duties is not probably too bad an idea... if that makes sense?

Have you directly compared the PQ? According to Kris, the 3910 has a better PQ than the Oppo (the Oppo has more MB and some chroma errors), so the 3910 may look better despite the BTB problem.
My 3910 is a June build and I didn't test it until a week or so ago as I typically use AVIA for DVD. I tested with the THX Optimizer on The Incredibles and couldn't see BtB which was a good thing as my display was calibrated so that it matches black. Upon turning up Brightness it would show up fine so I know it passes BtB. What I don't understand is who and why are they calibrating their display so it shows? In what case would you want to be able to see something you are not suppose to? I'm assuming you must be somewhat happy with having an elevated brightness in order to catch the BtB if it just might appear somewhere. I'm sorry if this has been repeated to death... but I have yet to see a conclusion why one wishes to see it.

Charles,

Unless your HDTV is CRT based, you may not be able to appreciate passing BTB because your HDTV is not capable of displaying true blacks. What kind of display are you using?

If you say black is not defined as the absent of all light (elevated) then I can see wanting to see something below black. Either way the display wouldn't matter as the point of reference is the same no matter where you place them on a chart.

As a weird example let's say you can't see anything - totally "black" No matter what you placed a foot in front of you you would not be able to see it. Even if some magical way it was darker than "black" since you can not see beyond black. Now if black is defined as above this total "black" you could see it regardless of the display if it was calibrated correctly.

First, as I understand it (and as I have recently experienced it with a Sony LCD RPTV), LCD and DLP displays cannot display true blacks, so having a DVD player which cannot pass BTB signals is probably a moot point. But, aside from that, it is my understanding that you need to calibrate your display's input in accordance with the source component hooked up to it. And, you need to see the BTB calibration screen in order to properly calibrate for blacks, regardless of type of display. When you use the BTB calibration screen, you adjust your HDTV so that you just barely cannot see the BTB lines. If your DVD player cannot pass the BTB signal, you cannot correctly calibrate that input for the player and therefore your video image will be less than optimal. At least that's how I understand it?

Originally posted by merc
If your DVD player cannot pass the BTB signal, you cannot correctly calibrate that input for the player and therefore your video image will be less than optimal. At least that's how I understand it? I think you can calibrate it from the other side just as accurately. Such as how AVIA does it. Keeping it simple again (these are just numbers...) you display IRE 0 (black) and IRE 1 (almost black). You simply turn up or down Brightness until you can see IRE 1 and not IRE 0 - it disappears into the background.

I bet there isn't one person who could look at two identical displays with a 3910 hooked up and calibrated properly, with one passing BTB and the other not, and look at a sample movie clip and tell which one is passing blacker than black vs the other. As long as brightness is set correctly, BTB is overrated IMHO. Although my 3910 does pass it :)

I bet there isn't one person who could look at two identical displays with a 3910 hooked up and calibrated properly, with one passing BTB and the other not, and look at a sample movie clip and tell which one is passing blacker than black vs the other. As long as brightness is set correctly, BTB is overrated IMHO.Heck, for that matter, I'd bet that no one could tell the difference between the Oppo and the 3910, during normal use, if both were optimally calibrated... In all these threads, once the basics are covered all we do is split hairs.

That's still no reason for Denon not have released a $1400(or is it $1200) MSRP player that doesn't pass black... and, for them to have known about it beforehand as shown by the circles, filled circles box markings. Seems like right about the time they increased the MSRP on the unit, they replaced some chip with one of lesser quality... or something like that?

They need to fess up and send us the parts/firmware needed to bring our units back up to spec.

Dave,

My theory is with CRT you can set brightness just above its lowest possible level and it will still look fine. This allows you to display any BtB material. Now with Digital you could do the same thing but typically with a much higher level above black so it isn't worth it for what you may or may not be rarely missing.

It is kind of like the 0 and 7.5 IRE issue. If I take a reading with Milori at 0 IRE, I can get a reading of .21 cd/m2 at 20 IRE. I can then set the IRE at 7.5 and reset brightness and take a reading and get the same .21 cd/m2 at 20 IRE. What I have found is that with my display, the gamma is better across the board using the 7.5 IRE setting. With the 0IRE setting, darker scenes don't have the same detail as they do with the 7.5 setting, even though the milori is reading the same .21 cd/m2 with both options. So I have gone with the 7.5 because it looks better to my eyes in actual viewing material.

Originally posted by merc
Without going into details, the mod is costing me nothing,

Without going into details, a $2500 mod is costing you nothing? Thanks, that explains it. :)

Originally posted by GetGray


Glad I got a good (BTB) unit.

Amen to that brother Scott.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
It is kind of like the 0 and 7.5 IRE issue.That's a fun one too. I ended up with 0 IRE as I believe my projector is looking for computer (not video) values. Plus it better matches my other sources (various D-VHS decks, HD TiVo, etc.).

Without going into details, a $2500 mod is costing you nothing? Thanks, that explains it.Pepar,

Not that the details are any of your effin business at all, but if you're going to be a smart ass about it, I actually had my choice of a new preamp, or the mod to my new 3910, and I chose the mod to the 3910. That choice was a make good from a previous deal with the modder. Hope that satisfies your curiousity.

If only Denon had customer service even half as good as this modder. :rolleyes:

Charles,

How are you connecting the 3910 to your FP? Upon reading the specs to the FP listed on your web site, it appears like it does not support HDCP over the DVD-D input. Possibly, if you are connecting via the BNC or RGB inputs, that may explain the differences you are seeing versus folks who are connecting via the HDMI/DVI-HDCP output at upconverted 1080i?

What 3910 connection are you using in your setup to your JVC FP?

If you are connecting via the RGB or BNC connections, then yes, your FP is indeed looking for computer values.

Merc,

I'm using DVI. I tried HDMI to DVI and it just opened up a can of worms. RGBHV and Component are looking for video values from what I can tell - based on the received resolutions. My thought is DVI is looking for computer values since the design is rather old and DVI was only used for computer input at the time - later models they added an option to pick one or the other. Not to mention all the inputs calibration settings nicely match outside of DVI.

I have compared HDNet's test patterns via HD TiVo to the 3910's via AVIA and the 0 IRE setting on the 3910 matches HDNet nicely.

I'm using DVI.Charles,

Okay, but that's where I got confused? How are you using the DVI/HDCP output from the Denon 3910 when I thought that your JVC FP is not HDCP compliant? Is your JVC FP HDCP compliant?

My projector works fine with the DTronics DVI link in the middle.

Has anyone tried an aftermarket power cable with their 3910? If so I would be interested in your comments as to whether or not it made a noticeable difference in its audio quality.

My projector works fine with the DTronics DVI link in the middle.Ahhh, I wondered about that, but then I read on the Digital Connection site that it was HDCP compliant and thought that that meant that it was like the IScan HD in that it wouldn't pass through a DVI/HDCP signal to a non-HDCP DVI input on a display???

Those Dtronics/Dtrovision converters and switches sure are cool and can be the only way us early adopting HDTV owners can fight back against Hollywood's paranoia and forced obsolescence of our perfectly good, non-HDCP, HD component and DVI inputs on our displays. :D

Originally posted by merc
Pepar,

Not that the details are any of your effin business at all, but if you're going to be a smart ass about it, I actually had my choice of a new preamp, or the mod to my new 3910, and I chose the mod to the 3910. That choice was a make good from a previous deal with the modder. Hope that satisfies your curiousity.



Like it or not, a $2500 freebie is unusual and evidently the keys on your keyboard necessary to 'splain it just a wee bit further work just fine. Bear that in mind before you drop another, similar effin cryptic remark. Maybe you should have chosen the Dale Carnegie course.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
Has anyone tried an aftermarket power cable with their 3910? If so I would be interested in your comments as to whether or not it made a noticeable difference in its audio quality.

I'm about to order some for my two amps. If it makes a difference there I may expand to the other gear.

Originally posted by pepar
I'm about to order some for my two amps. If it makes a difference there I may expand to the other gear.

I'm at about the same stage...please report back after you've tried them. Lots of the real audiophiles maintain that they really can make a difference, and I thought that the 3910, as a quality source, might benefit from such an upgrade.

Maybe you should have chosen the Dale Carnegie course.Fine. For you, I'd recommend any course taught by Judith Martin. :p

Originally posted by JBaumgart
I'm at about the same stage...please report back after you've tried them. Lots of the real audiophiles maintain that they really can make a difference, and I thought that the 3910, as a quality source, might benefit from such an upgrade.

I'm in the process of making up several power cables buying Belden 12/3 shielded #83803 and using Marinco/Wattgate connectors. The main reason is I only need about 2 feet for most components and it is less of a rat's nest not having a bunch of 6 foot cables all coiled up. If it sounds better, I'll call it a nice perk :)

There are companies selling this combo and asking upwards of $80 and more for 3 feet. I can do it with the same components for about half that or less.

Jazzcat,

Where do you buy your supplies for those cables? PM me if you prefer not to post it.
Thanks!

JBaumgart & jazzcat -

I've chosen to go with this vendor (http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html). I seriously considered building them myself, but found this company that builds them from top shelf components and sells them for a very reasonable price. I *could* build them for less if I don't consider my time and the possibility that I'll hose a few before I get it right.

pepar,

That price is VERY reasonable for complete Power cords. Thanks for the link.

pepar, he does good work and is very reasonable. I recommend him highly. No snake oil ;)

I just like farking around with stuff like that. Power cords are relatively easy so I just decided to give it a whirl. Our engineering lab has all the goodies to put them together. On the other hand, I still buy pre-made interconnects(XLR, digital coaxial, analog audio).

Besides, I want to use Techflex Chrome wire sleeves with neon blue heat shrink. :D

Make sure you have room/clearance for the IEC connectors to the component. They are quite huge!

There are some on Audioasylum's Cables forum who prefer Belden 19364 over 83803 though the latter is becoming more mopular these days. Partsexpress (OH) and Ram Electronics (NJ) normally have raw parts for these power cables at reasonable price. Apart from Signal Cable, Element Cable (http://www.elementcable.com) too has good and reasonably priced cables.

Are there issues with Macro Blocking when this DVD player is used with a Panasonic 50" 7UY?

Are there any problems noted with this unit when the component video outputs are used at 480p?

Originally posted by merc
Are there any problems noted with this unit when the component video outputs are used at 480p?

My 3910 looks fantastic via component 480p connected to HD CRT RPTV scanning @ 480p native. NO macro-block enhance whatsoever.

Thanks for the feedback Sam!

Originally posted by merc
pepar,

That price is VERY reasonable for complete Power cords. Thanks for the link.

You're very welcome, merc. Glad to help.

Jeff

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
My 3910 looks fantastic via component 480p connected to HD CRT RPTV scanning @ 480p native. NO macro-block enhance whatsoever.

I'll second this comment. Since my HD CRT RPTV lacks any digital video connections, I am forced to use the 3910's analog component video connections. It looks fantastic at 480p and I can't see how I'm missing anything by not being able to take advantage of the 3910's up-converting capabilities.

Originally posted by K_Thompson
I'll second this comment. Since my HD CRT RPTV lacks any digital video connections, I am forced to use the 3910's analog component video connections. It looks fantastic at 480p and I can't see how I'm missing anything by not being able to take advantage of the 3910's up-converting capabilities.

No DVI/HDMI? I think it's time for you to upgrade! J/K of course. IMHO, there's definitely a discernible difference when you go through DVE/Avia resolution patterns. However, when actually watching films on DVD, the difference is slight. It's not as eye popping as one would hope. I think you get a bigger difference from the quality of the player versus 480P/720P/1080i formats.

Originally posted by mattbugz
IMHO, there's definitely a discernible difference when you go through DVE/Avia resolution patterns.

I disagree. I have looked at resolution patterns on both discs via my 3910 480p component and it has displayed the maximium resolution in each time in all portions of the screen. My set has been properly ISF'd focused, etc.

If you have a CRT set, and if it has top-notch analog processing, there's no reason that a digital connection would necessarily look better. In fact, there's a chance it could look worse since your set's D/A convertors could be (likely are) worse than the D/A converters in the Denon.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
I disagree. I have looked at resolution patterns on both discs via my 3910 480p component and it has displayed the maximium resolution in each time in all portions of the screen. My set has been properly ISF'd focused, etc.

If you have a CRT set, and if it has top-notch analog processing, there's no reason that a digital connection would necessarily look better. In fact, there's a chance it could look worse since your set's D/A convertors could be (likely are) worse than the D/A converters in the Denon.

Are you comparing only 480p? My comparisons were with 480i, then 480p, 720p, 1080i using the vertical bar (RGB) pattern that had a decreasing gray space as you progressed left to right. I'll have to take a look at DVE to name the exact pattern.

Anyway, I observed less detail when viewing progressive 480p. In other words, the vertical bars to the far right were blended. However, at 720p/1080i using DVI, I could clearly discern the rightmost bars.

Originally posted by mattbugz
Are you comparing only 480p? My comparisons were with 480i, then 480p, 720p, 1080i using the vertical bar (RGB) pattern that had a decreasing gray space as you progressed left to right. I'll have to take a look at DVE to name the exact pattern.

It was also visible on the Avia sweep patterns.

Originally posted by mattbugz
Are you comparing only 480p? My comparisons were with 480i, then 480p, 720p, 1080i using the vertical bar (RGB) pattern that had a decreasing gray space as you progressed left to right. I'll have to take a look at DVE to name the exact pattern.

Anyway, I observed less detail when viewing progressive 480p. In other words, the vertical bars to the far right were blended. However, at 720p/1080i using DVI, I could clearly discern the rightmost bars.

Yes, I am only comparing at 480p component, 720p/1080i aren't available via component with this player.

Could it be that your set doesn't do as well @ 480p resolution?

My set does a pretty decent job with 480p via component (Sony GWIII). The argument I'm trying to make is that there is finer detail via DVI/HDMI @ 720p/1080i when observing through resolution test patterns. Unlike a still image of a test pattern, it's arguable that the differences in detail are more subtle or less discernible when watching a DVD movie.

If you have DVI/HDMI, use the patterns to compare against your 480p using component and determine if your HDTV reflects a difference.

Originally posted by mattbugz
My set does a pretty decent job with 480p via component (Sony GWIII). The argument I'm trying to make is that there is finer detail via DVI/HDMI @ 720p/1080i when observing through resolution test patterns. Unlike a still image of a test pattern, it's arguable that the differences in detail are more subtle or less discernible when watching a DVD movie.

If you have DVI/HDMI, use the patterns to compare against your 480p using component and determine if your HDTV reflects a difference.

Interesting.

Well, from what I understand, the GWIII has to convert it's digital inputs to analog first anyways, and then scale up to it's native resolution. Of course, 480p component has to be digitized then scaled up to 1366x768 (I think that's your resolution), so you likely have more A/D/A/D conversions going on than I do. I'm not doubting what you're seeing, it's just my guess that your display is more a factor than anything.

My set scans at 480p natively with no upcoversion or A/D/A/D and looks razor-sharp at 480p component. No room for improvement at all on the DVE/Avia test patterns. The are completely solid and even the finest resolution lines are shown distinct with no ringing.

I only have component and RGB/VGA inputs on my HDTV and I use the DVI output from the 3910 into a Dtrovision DVI-D to RGB converted. The converted is HDCP compliant, so I get to watch my DVDs upconverted to 1080i in spite of Hollywood's screw job on us loyal, early adopting HDTV owners. :p

Since we're talk'n reso here...

I just installed the latest upgrade from Denon and I must say it was worth the wait. Having been on -7 I was considering another player. My display is a Toshiba 57" RPTV, nothin fancy but its DVI-D and the native is1080i. However DVD movies look best at 720P. HD looks best at 1080i.

Its all about that "upconverted material thing" Mark Cuban likes to to talk about, garbage in garbage out.

I just installed the latest upgrade from DenonWhat latest upgrade? What is the date and version of the upgrade and did you get it off Denon's site?

Are you talking about the April 2005, ESS-6609-A SYS-6767-4, upgrade?

Figured I'd share some good fortune: I just received a refurbished 3910 which I scored from uBid on Thursday (they had 2 pop up) for $786 incl shipping. Mint condition with a June 2004 build date. Came with -5 firmware. I upgraded immediately to the "A" (April 2005) version. It replaces a 2910 which has served well for I think 8 months (hard to keep track of the revolving hardware swaps). Video is excellent (on my BenQ PJ) ... I need to do some A/Bing with the 2910 to evaluate the improvement. One thing is for sure, via analog outs, the audio is excellent and much better then the 2910, at least on my system. Anyway, at that price its a screaming deal.

Originally posted by pepar
JBaumgart & jazzcat -

I've chosen to go with this vendor (http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html). I seriously considered building them myself, but found this company that builds them from top shelf components and sells them for a very reasonable price. I *could* build them for less if I don't consider my time and the possibility that I'll hose a few before I get it right.

Thanks, just ordered one of their "Digital Reference" cords which I will try with my 3910.

Originally posted by mattbugz
My set does a pretty decent job with 480p via component (Sony GWIII). The argument I'm trying to make is that there is finer detail via DVI/HDMI @ 720p/1080i when observing through resolution test patterns. Unlike a still image of a test pattern, it's arguable that the differences in detail are more subtle or less discernible when watching a DVD movie.

If you have DVI/HDMI, use the patterns to compare against your 480p using component and determine if your HDTV reflects a difference.

I have the Sony XBR version of the GWIII and when I had my set ISF calibrated, he did notice an improvement overall with DVI over component, but at least on my set it was not a night and day difference. Still worth doing, he said, and so that's what I went with (which meant using component for my Motorola 6412 cable box, where he found it was a pure toss-up between DVI and component).

If anyone has experienced lip sync problems on their DVD players, please help us all by visiting the thread listed below and contributing your information.
LIP SYNC PROBLEM DATA COLLECTION (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=537705)

Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this project. :)

Originally posted by Kevin Johnson
Figured I'd share some good fortune: I just received a refurbished 3910 which I scored from uBid on Thursday (they had 2 pop up) for $786 incl shipping. Mint condition with a June 2004 build date. Came with -5 firmware. I upgraded immediately to the "A" (April 2005) version. It replaces a 2910 which has served well for I think 8 months (hard to keep track of the revolving hardware swaps). Video is excellent (on my BenQ PJ) ... I need to do some A/Bing with the 2910 to evaluate the improvement. One thing is for sure, via analog outs, the audio is excellent and much better then the 2910, at least on my system. Anyway, at that price its a screaming deal.

Good fortune inded. That is what a refurbed unit should sell for - as opposed to the damn near list that that company in FL gets for their refurbs.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
Thanks, just ordered one of their "Digital Reference" cords which I will try with my 3910.

I'm very interested in hearing your comments after installation. I'm more accepting, shall we say, of there being a sonic difference when moving to a special, heavy gage power cord on a power amp than other electronics.

Originally posted by pepar
I'm very interested in hearing your comments after installation. I'm more accepting, shall we say, of there being a sonic difference when moving to a special, heavy gage power cord on a power amp than other electronics.

I'm somewhat skeptical also, but I've been researching this, looking at a variety of first-hand accounts in various forums, and many have claimed more of a sonic improvment when upgrading their source cables than anything else. I figured this one is pretty inexpensive so I thought I would give it a shot.

Hope to have it at the end of this coming week and I'll try to report back with my impressions.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
I'm somewhat skeptical also, but I've been researching this, looking at a variety of first-hand accounts in various forums, and many have claimed more of a sonic improvment when upgrading their source cables than anything else. I figured this one is pretty inexpensive so I thought I would give it a shot.

Hope to have it at the end of this coming week and I'll try to report back with my impressions.

Cool! You're right about Signal Cable's pricing being relatively painless if one is in the experimantation stage. My two power amp cords will ship 5/11 and should be in my hands a day or two later. I will take the time to do comparisons and post my observations as well. I think we're about to become padawan tweakers.

Originally posted by merc
I only have component and RGB/VGA inputs on my HDTV and I use the DVI output from the 3910 into a Dtrovision DVI-D to RGB converted. The converted is HDCP compliant, so I get to watch my DVDs upconverted to 1080i in spite of Hollywood's screw job on us loyal, early adopting HDTV owners. :p

Can you provide more details on this converter? Such as where you got it and for how much? It might be a good idea to PM me with price info if you are willing to share.

Thanks,
Ken

Ken,

The DCDA-1 (http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP) is HDCP compliant too. :) But, it MSRPs at more than many cheap DVD players. Enjoy.

Originally posted by merc
Ken,

The DCDA-1 (http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP) is HDCP compliant too. :) But, it MSRPs at more than many cheap DVD players. Enjoy.

Thanks merc!!

Well, I just determined that the VGA input on my TV only supports 640x480 resolution. Bummer.:(

Thanks for your help anyway merc.

Stupid Question WHAT AM I DOOING WRONG ?
Ok I have a 3910 Conected to a samsung dlp Via DVI. The DVI input on the only has wide TV OR PC for aspect on that input.
I am trying to watch a quality film Spy Hard :~) & it is 1.85 so it SHOULD fill my TV -NO It looks cinamascope ?? I have the Denon set to 16x9 TV . squeze mode is off ? What am I doing wrong ?
Thanks !~

That movie is likely non-anamorhpic widescreen. So you player and display basically treat it as a 4:3 image.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
That movie is likely non-anamorhpic widescreen. So you player and display basically treat it as a 4:3 image.

It is non-anamorphic (looked it up on IMDB.com) so the film will be presented in a letterbox format with black bars on the top and bottom of the screen even though it is 1.85:1 aspect ratio.

so than its Widescreen Anamorphic 2.35:1 Not Widescreen 1.85:1??

Originally posted by merc
What latest upgrade? What is the date and version of the upgrade and did you get it off Denon's site?

Are you talking about the April 2005, ESS-6609-A SYS-6767-4, upgrade?

Yes, I recieved a two disk ROM set with those same rev's you mentioned.

To fill the screen of a non-anamorphic wide-screen movie, you will have to first set the 3910's DVI output to 480p and then use the display's zoom control to fill the screen. You also leave the 3910's squeeze mode off.

I know the 3910 should be able to handle non-anamorphic wide-screen movies easier then this but that's the way it is.

Good Luck!

Originally posted by K_Thompson
Well, I just determined that the VGA input on my TV only supports 640x480 resolution. Bummer.:(

Thanks for your help anyway merc.

By definition (http://www.computerhope.com/help/video.htm#standard), that's what "VGA" means.

Originally posted by gass
Yes, I recieved a two disk ROM set with those same rev's you mentioned.

Two CD's??? Why 2? When I downloaded... I just got one file?

I've posted about this before, but I'm in need of some help. I'm seeing "banding" on a good number of discs. I thought the effect was limited to dark scenes, but now I'm seeing in light areas too. Any suggestions as to what I might do in the video set-up of the player to fix this?

Originally posted by scsiraid
Two CD's??? Why 2? When I downloaded... I just got one file?

You downloaded a zip file. When you extract the zip, follow the instructions. You will be burning 2 files to separate disks.

Originally posted by hifisponge
I've posted about this before, but I'm in need of some help. I'm seeing "banding" on a good number of discs. I thought the effect was limited to dark scenes, but now I'm seeing in light areas too. Any suggestions as to what I might do in the video set-up of the player to fix this?

I had slight color banding when I first plugged in my 3910. Before I calibrated. I suggest using DVE/Avia. If you don't have either, see if you have a DVD that has THX Optimizer. I think it's your contrast/brightness levels that need to be adjusted to remove the banding.

Has someone got a link to the latest region free firmware for the 3910?

Thanks,
Bill

Originally posted by mattbugz
I had slight color banding when I first plugged in my 3910. Before I calibrated. I suggest using DVE/Avia. If you don't have either, see if you have a DVD that has THX Optimizer. I think it's your contrast/brightness levels that need to be adjusted to remove the banding.

Thanks for the advice Matt. I've futzed around with the contrast and brightness, but never in conjunction with a test disc. I have both the original Video Essentials disc and an AVIA disc. I'll try to get around to using them this week.

Bill, i would highly reccomend that you contact Audio Products Australia and get them to send out the latest firmware to your nearest service agent.
I don't think that there are many (if any) legit Region Free firmware versions online, especially of the latest firmware.

Also alot of the firmware avalible online are designed usually for different video systems (NTSC) so you may screw up your player if you install the wrong one.

IMO, it is not worth the risk to download things like this, unless specifically specified for Aussie models. (which has yet to happen)

As i said, Audio Products Australia are usually very helpful, just ask to speak to a tech guy, or you won't get far :)

Cheers
KJ

I recently bought Denon 3910 from ubid. Thankfully it passes blacker than black. However it has firmware 5. I ordered the latest (9a) firmware from Denon over three weeks ago. They said that I should get it within 10 business days. I still haven't received it.

Anyone else have trouble getting the firmware disc from Denon? I am going to call them later... maybe I can drop by and pick it up from them (since I am also located in New Jersey).

The reason I am in a hurry is that I am going to have ISF calibration done next Monday and I would like to get the firmware update done before that. Anyone have any advice on how I can get hold of the disc quickly?

Thanks,
Stan

Stan,

Just d/l the upgrade from here ( http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp ) and burn two CD's...

any news on firmware -10 ?

Originally posted by ssabripo
any news on firmware -10 ?

The firmware following ESS6609-9 should be referred to as "-A" since the complete name is ESS6609-A. There will be no -10 version. I have been using -A for several weeks with no negative effects.

Hello,
Denonlink 3rd is out now.

Look at Denon.de translate with google. :D

FwvG

Dont' suppose the 3910 will play a Divx avi file will it?

.... sorry

Translated from Denon.de

Free course for highly soluble audio: DL 3rd the third generation of the digital multi-channel interface DENON left (DL 3rd) makes now also the transmission possible of untreated SACD Bitstroeme from the universal Player to the A/V Receiver/ amplifier over only one interwiring. Step for step takes up the digital audio express of DENON travel. Owing to the officially sealed SACD support for the up-to-date valid SACD standard DENON universal Player can the original DSD Bitstroeme of the SuperAudio CD in best quality directly over DENON left 3rd spend and at an accordingly equipped A/V amplifier or -Receiver pass on. That means: In place of the necessary, similar connection over six individual lines music trailers can transfer all two and multi-channel formats now with only one cable loss-free and in best quality. Beyond that is open to the signals of DVD audio or SACD also the way to interesting functions of the DENON A/V amplifiers or -Receiver, supplied by way of the DENON link interface. Among it also the car Room EQ Raumentzerrung without the signals ranks unnecessarily to change to have beside bass management and Laufzeitentzerrung. Also the ProLogic IIx rework, which appropriate for example the 5.1-Kanal-Ton of the SACD for the rendition over a 7.1-Kanal-Lautsprecher-System prepares, is possible. The newest amplifiers and receiver are already equipped with the DENON left 3rd. Current DVD Player like the DVD-A1XV and the DVD-3910 can be re-tooled by DL 2nd on DL 3rd. For the somewhat older DVD-A11 it will likewise give a solution.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
The firmware following ESS6609-9 should be referred to as "-A" since the complete name is ESS6609-A. There will be no -10 version. I have been using -A for several weeks with no negative effects.

Edited: Nevermind!

Edited again: How do we know there will be no "10"?

Originally posted by pepar
Edited: Nevermind!

Edited again: How do we know there will be no "10"?

Numbering scheme went this way: 7, 8, 9, A

I would expect the next release to be B.

Okay... as long as we still have a potential 25 more versions of the firmware... I am happy. :)

Originally posted by pepar
By definition (http://www.computerhope.com/help/video.htm#standard), that's what "VGA" means.

I know that. I'm sure most people reading this threat know that and I'm sure that they didn't have any trouble understanding what I was talking about. Many, many years ago VGA was the only resolution available so in some circles, "VGA" became not only the defining term for the resolution, but for the connector type as well. And before you say anything, I also realize the correct term for the connector is a 15 pin D-sub. For your sake I'll make sure my future posts are more literal and technically correct.

Ken,

I too understand the term VGA when used within A/V to mean a RGB/VGA type connection. ;)

Originally posted by merc
Ken,

I too understand the term VGA when used within A/V to mean a RGB/VGA type connection. ;)

merc,

I knew YOU would understand!:D

Originally posted by mattbugz
Numbering scheme went this way: 7, 8, 9, A

I would expect the next release to be B.

You would? It's been numbers up until now and, after one letter, you're ready to give up on numbers? :)

Originally posted by K_Thompson
I know that. I'm sure most people reading this threat know that and I'm sure that they didn't have any trouble understanding what I was talking about. Many, many years ago VGA was the only resolution available so in some circles, "VGA" became not only the defining term for the resolution, but for the connector type as well. And before you say anything, I also realize the correct term for the connector is a 15 pin D-sub. For your sake I'll make sure my future posts are more literal and technically correct.

I went back to my post and see that I forgot my smiley, so here it is: :)

I just talked to Jim at Denon and he said there is another firmware update coming within a week. He'll send me the update on disc then.

Do you know what it fixes? I'm still on V. 8, and won't bother with 9 or 9a if the next one is on the way soon. I finally checked for BTB using Star Wars, and I easily see the drop shadow and thus have BTB (not a big surprise since it's a June build). At the time I was upset that it was a June build (I thought I wanted to get a later build to give Denon more chance to get any bugs out, but now I'm glad it's the earlier build).

Great, there's a new firmware upgrade coming and I still have to send my 3910 to Denon for the BTB fix, now I'll have to wait until the firmware's ready and then send it.

Just send it. I'm sure they'd update your firmware in addition to fix BTB.

Martin

Matt is correct. Denon did my BTB fix and upgraded my machine to the latest "April 05" firmware. I sent my unit in UPS 3 day delivery and it was back in my hands in less than two weeks!

Mismatched

thanks guys.

A news from www.areadvd.de:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=mozclient&u=http%3A//www.areadvd.de/news/2005/200505/100520050003.shtml

Pete

Billp,

He didn't say what next firmware update fixes, but he did say it's coming out next week.

Since I already burned the 9a onto two cds, and have ISF calibration this coming Monday, I am not going to wait for the new one... after all, who knows what problems it might have?

Can anyone verify that 9a firmware is generally problem free?

I'd like to know before I apply it, because my current firmware # 5 has quite a few issues.

Thanks,
Stan

I recommend using the latest firmware for your ISF calibration. I installed it on my refurb 3910 a month ago before I hooked it up in the system and everything seems to be working well.

Originally posted by Stan Rozenfeld
Billp,

He didn't say what next firmware update fixes, but he did say it's coming out next week.

Since I already burned the 9a onto two cds, and have ISF calibration this coming Monday, I am not going to wait for the new one... after all, who knows what problems it might have?

Can anyone verify that 9a firmware is generally problem free?

I'd like to know before I apply it, because my current firmware # 5 has quite a few issues.

Thanks,
Stan

Stan,

The -A firmware works fine on my 3910. I would apply it without reservation.

Does anyone have problems playing MP3 mono files (ye I know they are a strange breed, but I just happen to have some lecture CDs, burned in this format). I get no sound out, even though the 3910 shows it is playing them.

DigiPete

Originally posted by Martin Butler
Great, there's a new firmware upgrade coming and I still have to send my 3910 to Denon for the BTB fix, now I'll have to wait until the firmware's ready and then send it.
Hello, first of all I have to say that I'm from Spain (sorry for my English). I intend to purchase a 3910 so I'm reading throug this marvellous thread.
One of the questions I have is: what is BTB? sorry but I don't know what it is and what it is its problen to fix.
Thank you for your help.

BTB is the ability of the player to show blacker than black (if not, that's referred to as black crush). If the player cannot show BTB, then you can lose some details in dark scenes of the movie. The initial 3910s (manufactured in June/July) did show BTB, but apparently something was changed and some August/September players did not show BTB. The only way to fix affected units is apparently to ship them to Denon.

Originally posted by BillP
BTB is the ability of the player to show blacker than black (if not, that's referred to as black crush). If the player cannot show BTB, then you can lose some details in dark scenes of the movie. The initial 3910s (manufactured in June/July) did show BTB, but apparently something was changed and some August/September players did not show BTB. The only way to fix affected units is apparently to ship them to Denon.
Thank you BillP.
And how do I know if the player shows BTB? Is there any sign on the screen or is it just an appraisal?
Thank you

Bill,

Almost but not quite right on the BTB; BTB should not be visible on a properly calibrated display.

BTB is useful in easily calibrating a display (but is not required) and has some use on a non-linear CRT. On a fixed pixel display, it has only the calibration aid as a positive.

Fo a long discussion (it should be required reading, see BTB thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4969789)

From that thread: Blacker-than-black data has nothing to do with whether a source outputs at 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. You know already that IRE is just mV, and absolute mV are not encoded in any way on the DVD. The DVD is encoded in digital values from 1-254. Reference black is encoded at digital 16, with nominal reference white at 235. Codes 0 and 255 are illegal for image data. Codes 1-15 represent data that is below reference black, hence it is called blacker-than-black (BTB). Codes 236-254 are peak whites. I will refrain from calling them ‘whiter than white’ because this implies that they shouldn’t normally be present or visible in the final picture. They should be, unlike BTB(BTB should not regularly be visible in the final calibrated image)! It is important to maintain the full range of encoded data through your video chain for the best image. When the digital image data is converted into an analog waveform at an analog output, only then does IRE enter the picture. BTB data will simply fall below whatever the IRE output level for black is. In a system that outputs black at 7.5 IRE, BTB data will be output at voltages slightly below 7.5 IRE. In a system that outputs black at 0 IRE, BTB data will be output at voltages slightly below 0mV (simply negative volts). If you’ve digested that correctly, you realize that BTB data can be maintained in BOTH situations.

You can see BTB using something like the AVIA or Digital Video Essentials setup discs (if your player sends BTB).

ok, but if I purchase a Denon 3910 (I will in a few days), how do I know if BTB is working or not to take the player to be fixed?
Thanks

use Digital Video Essentials test DVD or something similar.

AVIA does not have a BTB test. Both Digital Video Essentials and the THX Optimizer (an option on several DVDs, including the Star Wars DVDs) have a BTB test pattern.

Originally posted by BillP
AVIA does not have a BTB test. Both Digital Video Essentials and the THX Optimizer (an option on several DVDs, including the Star Wars DVDs) have a BTB test pattern.

I recommend using DVE. On my 3910 the THX Optimizer on the Star Wars DVD does show a slight purple BTB drop shadows although my 3910 does not pass BTB. When I use DVE the BTB bar is completely invisible.

Mike

I am able to see a very obvious, dark drop shadow with my 3910 (that does pass BTB) and the THX Optimizer, so I guess the moral of the story is that you need to see more than just a slight shadow to make sure your unit passes BTB.

Thank you very much. I'll get Digital Video Essentials.

So what's the deal on the Denonlink 3 thing, looks like a new announcement not the old SACD 2.0 false alarm. Does this mean DSD data from SACD's direct over Denonlink in the next few weeks?

Originally posted by uzun
So what's the deal on the Denonlink 3 thing, looks like a new announcement not the old SACD 2.0 false alarm. Does this mean DSD data from SACD's direct over Denonlink in the next few weeks?


I am from Germany, and yes, that's exactly what the text on the Denon.de website says. It also says that they will post more details on June 1st.

Good news for now :D

echnaton
Are you saying it may possibly be just a firmware update?

From Denon.de...

10-5-05

Free course for highly soluble audio: DL 3rd the third generation of the digital multi-channel interface DENON left (DL 3rd) makes now also the transmission possible of untreated SACD Bitstroeme from the universal Player to the A/V Receiver/ amplifier over only one interwiring. Step for step takes up the digital audio express of DENON travel. Owing to the officially sealed SACD support for the up-to-date valid SACD standard DENON universal Player can the original DSD Bitstroeme of the SuperAudio CD in best quality directly over DENON left 3rd spend and at an accordingly equipped A/V amplifier or -Receiver pass on. That means: In place of the necessary, similar connection over six individual lines music trailers can transfer all two and multi-channel formats now with only one cable loss-free and in best quality. Beyond that is open to the signals of DVD audio or SACD also the way to interesting functions of the DENON A/V amplifiers or -Receiver, supplied by way of the DENON link interface. Among it also the car Room EQ Raumentzerrung without the signals ranks unnecessarily to change to have beside bass management and Laufzeitentzerrung. Also the ProLogic IIx rework, which appropriate for example the 5.1-Kanal-Ton of the SACD for the rendition over a 7.1-Kanal-Lautsprecher-System prepares, is possible. The newest amplifiers and receiver are already equipped with the DENON left 3rd. Current DVD Player like the DVD-A1XV and the DVD-3910 can be re-tooled by DL 2nd on DL 3rd. For the somewhat older DVD-A11 it will likewise give a solution. Closer information for the modalities and execution is published to 01.06.2005. Please you have up to then still little patience.

http://www.denon.de/site/frames_main.php?main=news&MID=2&ver=1

Strange how this sounds so much like asian subtiltes. Info in June. Dag.

Maybe echnaton could re-write that in English, instead of the non-sensical German-to-English word for word translation...:)

I feel so privileged to have highly soluble audio.

bucky63 and digipete,

thanks for your advice! I applied the 9a firmware and everything looks good!

Thanks again,
Stan

guys, I can translate the key sections for you tonight when I get home from work. Cheers!

Okay, here's what I have. Apologies if the wording is still a bit "bumpy". I didn't have much time and I am not a native speaker. But the meaning should be pretty close.

---------------------

The way is clear for high-resolution audio: DL 3rd

The third generation of the digital multi-channel interface DENON Link (DL 3rd) now also allows the transmission of untreated SACD bit streams from universal DVD players to A/V receivers/amps over one single cable connection.

The digital audio-express from DENON gathers steam step by step. Thanks to the officially approved SACD support for currently valid SACD standards, it is now possible for DENON Universal DVD Players to pass the unaltered DSD bit streams of SuperAudioCDs to equally equipped A/V-amps or receivers directly over DENON Link 3rd in their highest quality.

This means: Instead of using six discrete analogue connections, music fans can now pass all dual- and multi-channel formats lossless and in best quality with one single cable.

Furthermore the way is open to interesting functions of DENON A/V-amplifiers or receivers for SACD and DVD-Audio signals that are passed over the DENON LINK-Interface. Besides bass management and delay equalization this also includes Auto-Room-EQ without converting the signals unnecessarily.
In addition, ProLogic IIx processing, that, for example, adequately enhances the 5.1-channel audio of SACDs for playback with a 7.1-channel speaker system, is also available.

The newest amplifiers and receivers are already equipped with Denon Link 3rd. Current DVD-Player models like the DVD-3910 and the DVD-A1XV can be upgraded from DL 2nd to DL 3rd. There will also be a solution for the slightly older DVD-A11.

Further information about the (upgrade) process will be published on 6-1-2005. Please be patient.

Thanks, that makes much better sense...:)

Assuming the 3910 can be "upgraded" with a simple firmware update, I am really looking forward to this. With Room EQ and IIx available, SACD's should then sound just as good as DVD-A's on my system. I won't mind 6 less cables in the maze behind my components either.

Originally posted by Stan Rozenfeld
bucky63 and digipete,

thanks for your advice! I applied the 9a firmware and everything looks good!

Thanks again,
Stan

Great.

The -A firmware update also was bundled with the -4 Sys update.

I assume you did both.

DigiPete

Upgrade Version: ESS-6609-B SYS-6767-5 CNE-1028
Upgrade Date: May 2005


Rats. I'm running out of CD's....