Denon 3910 Owners Thread [Text View] - Page 18

Denophile

07-14-05, 08:21 AM

Wow, a step above the 3910, but I am curious what you are feeding with the 5910 and what did the 5910 replace?

I wish I had comparison data from the 3910--I almost bought one but I had a significant discount from tweeter so I decided to go all the way, especially given the video processing chip (I expected this to be the last dvd/sacd/dvd-a played I would buy)--I had been using a pioneer dv-45A (clearly this was a significant step up).

This is feeding a toshiba 57h83 CRT via direct DVI connection at 1080i (I bought the tv JUST before the 720p standard became available :mad: . audio is connected via a denon 3805 with dl3. SInce I just set it up yesterday I have only been able to listen to a coupld of sacd's and see 1 movie (hostage).

With respect to the difference from the pioneer, there are some that are instantly obvious. Some movies looked grainy First, as I was calibrating the input with DVE it was nice to see it passed BTB.

Second, the images seem to have more "depth"--a 3-dimensional quality that look like HDTV (in fact even better than some of my HDTV channels)--even in the DVE in the basic setup menu where there is a tv playing something in a fixed background, the stuff going on in the tv seems almost separate from the background--almost kind of freaky.

Third, compared to the dv 45a, picture graininess seems markedly improved. (I used kris deering's setup suggestions from secrets). I look forward to testing this on more commercial dvd rentals to see if this holds to be true. The picture also seems to be what I can only describe as more glossy and smooth. This combined with a greater sense of depth is truly awesome to behold. I could not be more satisfied with the audio or video quality, although my testing thus far has been very limited!

I should also note that since the dv-45A has no dvi connection, it was connected via component through the 3805 (at 480p->540P on my tv)--I am guessing the scaling capability of the 5910 through a digital connection may also be helpful with respect to picture quality.

I don't feel that I have listened to enough high res audio to be able to comment fully yet on that, but my initial impression is that there is more dynamic range and the low end especially is more full and precise. I was not entirely unhappy with the audio from the dv-45a--it has burr-brown dac's and sounded good, except lacking a bit in low end (even compared to my sony W2000ES CDR when playing the same source redbook cd). It seemed to have a reasonable soundstage presence and clarity otherwise. The real problem with the dv-45a is the suboptimal video performance.

one last thing about dl3--I seem to remember someone in this forum having trouble getting it working but that making sure the plug was in snugly fixed it--this was also the case with mine but once in it is magical!

Tom Grooms

07-14-05, 11:00 AM

merc

07-14-05, 11:04 AM

Anytime you can watch material in it's native resolution, you should always do so.Isn't SD-DVD's native resolution actually 480i?

Tom Grooms

07-14-05, 11:08 AM

yup! ;)

Sam S

07-14-05, 11:47 AM

Wow, a $3000 DVD player hooked up to a CRT rear projector? You should be feeding it 480p. Anytime you can watch material in it's native resolution, you should always do so. Since your TV displays 480p natively, you should be watching DVD in 480p. Try it, I bet it will look better than artificial upsampling. The only reason to upsample DVDs to 720p is if you have a fixed pixel display (1280x720) or 1080i on a 1920x1080 fixed pixel display.

$0.02

Even though he has a CRT HDTV set, the native res. of that particular Tosh is 1080i. And the TV's internal scaling of the 480p to 1080i is poor.

So, likely the 1080i does look the best. Unfortunately, by sending it 1080i, his TV is applying the HD color decoding paramaters, thereby throwing off his greens and reds due to the material being NTSC resolution natively.

Tom Grooms

07-14-05, 01:33 PM

Sam S

07-14-05, 01:46 PM

ah ha, this is a 540p set. I don't understand why manufactures do that. My old hitachi 57swx20b was a 540p/1080i set. If you don't send it 1080i, the tv scales the signal. :(

Many CRT RP sets are 480p/1080i native ;)

Manfacturers do it to cut costs/save money.

My set does 480p/1080i natively. It can also scan at 960i. I feed my 3910 at 480p component.

Denophile

07-14-05, 04:26 PM

Wow, a $3000 DVD player hooked up to a CRT rear projector?

$0.02

upgrading slowly, my friend. I have been drooling over the qualia as you can imagine. an anthem pre-pro and sunfire amplification will likely complete the picture.

pepar

07-14-05, 06:54 PM

Even though he has a CRT HDTV set, the native res. of that particular Tosh is 1080i. And the TV's internal scaling of the 480p to 1080i is poor.

So, likely the 1080i does look the best. Unfortunately, by sending it 1080i, his TV is applying the HD color decoding paramaters, thereby throwing off his greens and reds due to the material being NTSC resolution natively.

If the deinterlacer/scaler in the display is not up to the quality of the one in the player, I'd rather feed the display more than it needs and trust that it'll do a better job of throwing data away than "creating" it.

Sam S

07-14-05, 07:39 PM

If the deinterlacer/scaler in the display is not up to the quality of the one in the player, I'd rather feed the display more than it needs and trust that it'll do a better job of throwing data away than "creating" it.

Right.

That's what he's doing in this case.

tsteves

07-14-05, 07:44 PM

All this source/display upconverting/native debate has been done, with no clear winner, imo, since the exceptions prove that "it depends on equipment".
HD color decoding from dvd upconverting players does not get much space in reviews, but with decent drives, you would think it was taken care of by the upconverting source. Since this would seem very important, i don't know why there is no more assurance from "those who know".

Allen

07-15-05, 03:00 PM

Alright, I picked up a Denon 4806 yesterday and hooked it up with my 3910. I first applied the DL3 updates which have ben previously posted. Setting the 3910 for DL3 and then assingning the DL3 to the dvd source in the 4806, connect the wire and voila, everything goes through. Lots more room in the cable loom now. I will comment more after a lot more time with the units.

Allen

BenDover

07-15-05, 03:19 PM

Aside from the HDMI allowing one the choice of passing RGB or YCbCr, are there any other differences? Has anyone made any observations of image quality between one over the other? If one had to choose, which would be the best choice?

Here is my dilemma, I recently purchased the Zektor DVS5.1 DVI Switch through the forum power buy, but in my haste didn't realize that it doesn't do HDMI-HDMI (as I found out when my 3910, connected via HDMI, wasn't outputting video). I really like the Zektor for performing the intended function and additionally being a rack-mountable switch. I can either keep the existing Zektor and connect the 3910 through the DVI port or exchange the Zektor for an HDMI switch (e.g., the Dtrovision 4.1) and possibly upgrade to the new Zektor DVI switch that will handle HDMI-HDMI properly (due out some time in September).

Thoughts, comments, suggestions... :D

pepar

07-15-05, 03:22 PM

BenDover

07-15-05, 03:24 PM

I believe the video portion of HDMI *is* the DVI signal. If that's true, you should be able to convert back and forth w/o loss. I'm sure others will confirm or refute this.

Well, yes, I believe that to be true as well, but here the 3910 has two separate connectors and I am not sure whether for some reason one is better than the other or not.

I also find it strange that they have two different implementations of HDCP if the video is pin-for-pin identical.

tor ove

07-15-05, 04:21 PM

The HDMi out sends alot weaker signal than the DVI out does on D3910.
My HDMi out doesn't give me a stable picture even at 7.5 meters cable, though with a DVI adapter the DVI out gives me fine picture beyond 10m long cables.

BillP

07-15-05, 04:40 PM

BenDover

07-15-05, 05:04 PM

IMO, you're generally better off going DVI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-HDMI (which is why the 3910 provides the option of either, depending on what input is in the back of your display). The early reviews of the 3910 noted black crush with DVI/HDMI cables or adapters. I don't know whether they fixed it with firmware since then.

My problem is I need to switch source and I don't want to have to purchase two switches, one for DVI sources and one for HDMI sources; my set only has two HDMI inputs and my receiver does not switch HDMI/DVI.

Maybe there is another way to answer my question, which setting is the preferred setting RGB or YCbCr? I thought I read the preferable setting was RGB...

wmitty818

07-16-05, 12:10 AM

echnaton

07-16-05, 06:45 AM

BillP

07-16-05, 09:07 AM

Hi

I have a 3910 connected to an Infocus 7205. My problem is a picture with a milky haze and an awful black level. I can remove this haze by selecting the enhanced black level option, but the black level is still worse than my Bravo D2 with the same projector and screen (even though there is no comparison in the PQ). Changing IRE to 0 improves the black level, but all shadow detail is lost. My projector is well calibrated and I am using a DVI connection. I would appreciate any suggestions.

Thank You.
Have you tried calibrating the 3910? Eventhough you state the projector is well calibrated, I assume that was done with a different source, and the 3910 settings are obviously different. I bet you can improve your PQ by adjusting the 3910 settings for contrast and brightness, etc, with a calibration DVD.

Hyabusha

07-16-05, 10:12 AM

I have a rear projection HDTV Hitachi 65XWX20. And I'm using the HDMI output on the 3910. Which resolution should I use for the best picture quality? 480P, 720P or 1080i? And should I use the yCbCr or RGB setting? Thanks

Allen

07-16-05, 07:15 PM

Allen, I would be very interested to hear more about your experience with the 4806. Looking forward to your report :)

Okay, I am going to talk here about the 4806 and how it relates to the 3910, without talking about all the features of the 4806, which I will discuss more fully in the 4806 owners thread in the amps forum. I will respond to any question, but I don't want to write this twice.

First - the DL3 connection.

Once you install the firmware upgrade, there is now a dlink3 choice in the audio menu. Selecting it pretty much grays out most of the other audio related choices. Not sure if the coax or toslink digital outs are still active, but as every conceivable audio format now goes though the Dlink, there would not be much need for any other hookup if you used the d-link. If your 3910 dacs are better than say your 3805, and you want to use the 3910, then analog out is your only option, but as I am perfectly happy with the 4806's handling of the signal, Dlink3 is the only audio link you need. I would guess the added control and available processing in the 3805 most would probably opt for the convenience of the Dlink.

When you get to the other end of the cable, you come to the 4806 :)

There you basically go to the setup screen where you assign the digital inputs, and assign Dlink to the source you you use for it, presumably DVD. A cool feature of the 4806 is you can rename sources, so if you have multiple dvd players you can use any three letter, number or punctuation mark combo you want to the source.

Once you make the source assigned to the 3910 active, the receiver senses the dlink and connects. You then have a whole slew of choices on what you want to do with the signal, from straight DSD with no processing to the full range of equalization and processing available in the 4806, including PL2x and dts neo6. as well as all the dolby, dts and THX modes available on the planet. No, I have no idea if it has any provision for the speculated about DDhd or DTShd.

That pretty much outlines audio. I used hdmi out for video to the hdmi in on the receiver,, with hdmi out from the receiver to a DVI connection on my sony XBR hd CRT. Works great, and the OSD for the setup menu as well as the OSD pages all show up on the screen. (there are settings to turn this feature off and on by item)

The 4806 also sends all other video formats, whether composite, S-video, component or dvi through the HDMI out, so there is no more switching of video inputs on the tv. Some have opined that this is a problem if you calibrate your display by input, but for me I just set up each named video mode on the display for a different source, so I can accommodate up to four sources. As a practical matter I use only 2, one for the DVD and the other for the hdtivo. The hdtivo setup works fine for all the other things I watch, which is mostly sd tv where it is not as critical as the HD or DVD sources.

Home Theater people who want to use with the projector off, you can receive all the OSD and non hi-res sources through the composite or s-video monitor out which you can feed to a small display, but the 4806 will not downrez hi-rez sources to analog out.

That's the first impressions. All of the great features of the 3910 have been spoken of before, and the added bonus is the dvd commands on the 4806 remote default to the denon dvd codes, so you can control many of the functions easily from the 4806 remote. Serious remote freaks will abandon the 4806 for Harmony or one of the other high end remotes, but in a pinch you can get most things done with the 4806 remote.

I'll try to answer questions if I can, and will check back from time to time. I am still a long way from working my way through all the options on the 4806, but do know that I really like the Audyssey EQ.

Allen

ssabripo

07-16-05, 08:00 PM

AWESOME job Allen......and congrats! ;)

Allen

07-16-05, 11:24 PM

Thanks, as I said in the 4806 thread, the possible settings, connections, formats and other selections makes setup a truly daunting task. There will be a lot of posts discussing the various permutations of setup options for some time to come, and they will be repeated every time someone new to the thread asks the inevitable questions.

Allen

Hyabusha

07-16-05, 11:46 PM

Hey Allen, for this newbie, can you post a link to the DL3 firmware upgrade for the 3910? Thanks Allen for your Info.

Yogi69

07-17-05, 06:33 AM

Hyabusha, the links have been in this thread quite a few times - here is the first one I found... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=447795&page=140&pp=30

about half the way down the page... try it you'll like it! :D

echnaton

07-17-05, 08:40 AM

...That pretty much outlines audio. I used hdmi out for video to the hdmi in on the receiver,, with hdmi out from the receiver to a DVI connection on my sony XBR hd CRT. Works great, and the OSD for the setup menu as well as the OSD pages all show up on the screen. (there are settings to turn this feature off and on by item)

Thank you, Allen! So when the 4806 overlays the OSD, I assume it does that to the digital signal. So in theory the video (over HDMI) from the 3910 should look exactly the same, compared to when you feed it to the display directly. Is this true in you experience?

Hyabusha

07-17-05, 09:31 AM

Hey Thanks Yogi69 :)

Allen

07-17-05, 02:20 PM

Thank you, Allen! So when the 4806 overlays the OSD, I assume it does that to the digital signal. So in theory the video (over HDMI) from the 3910 should look exactly the same, compared to when you feed it to the display directly. Is this true in you experience?

There are two parts to that analysis.

As far as I can tell, the digital signal through the 4806 to the display is no different than a digital connection directly from the 3910 to the display, but I have no measuring device to confirm that.

When you depress the osd button on the 4806, or put it into setup mode, the picture appears to be switched to 4:3 480 res, with the osd overlayed on a squeezed picture. When you cancel the osd, the picture goes back to original resolution and aspect ratio.

Allen

pepar

07-17-05, 04:27 PM

When you depress the osd button on the 4806, or put it into setup mode, the picture appears to be switched to 4:3 480 res, with the osd overlayed on a squeezed picture. When you cancel the osd, the picture goes back to original resolution and aspect ratio.

Allen

Saves them from upconverting the OSD. 'Tis easier to turn off the upconversion circuitry and mix in the OSD at the 480i resolution, which is probably what it's generated at. Why bother with HD on the OSD. I'll speculate though that at some point in the future - next-gen hi-def optical disks perhaps - even the OSD will be hi-def, and 3D at that. With Windows moving to a 3D GUI, we will all soon become accustomed to it.

uzun

07-18-05, 12:36 AM

My prediction for the week : The US site will feature the 3910 DL3 update, sometime before Friday.

ssabripo

07-18-05, 09:09 AM

My prediction for the week : The US site will feature the 3910 DL3 update, sometime before Friday.

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/fingersx.gif

pepar

07-18-05, 09:39 AM

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/fingersx.gif

That *is* a little thumb that's jutting up into the air, isn't it? :D

ssabripo

07-18-05, 10:02 AM

That *is* a little thumb that's jutting up into the air, isn't it? :D

doesnt hurt to keep your fingers crossed...http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

pepar

07-18-05, 10:25 AM

doesnt hurt to keep your fingers crossed...http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

10-4.

Badabbing

07-18-05, 12:15 PM

upgrading slowly, my friend. I have been drooling over the qualia as you can imagine. an anthem pre-pro and sunfire amplification will likely complete the picture.

I'm almost done with mine. Currently a Rotel 1066, SF Cinema Grand and a TrueSub MkIV with a few more odds and ends to add and I'm done. A/V nirvana :D

Burkerg

07-18-05, 03:30 PM

Has anyone else noticed an audio dropout during R.E.M.'s "Losing My Religion," when playing the DVD-A on the 3910? It comes at 5:57 (when looking at the elapsed time of the whole disc). I've already exchanged the disc once, but it happens on the new one as well. Any ideas? Thanks.
Rob

DigiPete

07-18-05, 03:33 PM

Burkerg

07-18-05, 03:40 PM

Oh...! Sorry! 5.1 96/24.

DigiPete

07-18-05, 08:36 PM

Oh...! Sorry! 5.1 96/24.

Sorry, I thought I had that one, but I have the 'In Time 1988-2003 - best of REM' DVD-A. Losing my religion works ok on this DVD.

DigiPete

swatter911

07-18-05, 11:30 PM

Looks like 5900/5910 firmware is almost out and 3910 DL3 firmware (consisting of 7 disks!!) is coming quickly. Audioholics has some info here. (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81377&postcount=114)

JBaumgart

07-19-05, 12:50 AM

Tom Grooms

07-19-05, 08:24 AM

Hopefully to improve navigation speed

ssabripo

07-19-05, 08:39 AM

7 discs????? :confused:

Hyabusha

07-19-05, 08:45 AM

For those of us who have the DL3 already, are we able to still upgrade with the "Official" release? Will It just overlap? Thanks

JasonColeman

07-19-05, 10:25 AM

7 discs...Christ, I hope I don't have to burn them myself!!! :eek: :D :D

I would assume that the US DL3 upgrade will install over the existing European upgrade.

Jason

Daphoid

07-19-05, 10:33 AM

I highly doubt it'll happen, but if there's 7 Disc's, purely because of space issues, then a DVD .iso would be nice..

However if it needs 7 discs purely for "step 1 do this" then "step 2 do this" then I can see the need for the 7.

Either way, if it's 7 .iso's, I plan to do this:

1. Download all 7 .iso files
2. Burn Disc 1 to CDRW
3. Run the disc in the player
4. Erase CDRW and Burn Disc 2
5. Run the disc in the player
6. Repeat... :)

- D

tor ove

07-19-05, 11:15 AM

Here in norway a cdr-disk is about 30 cents.
If your multi thousand player doesn't deserve just over 2$ of disks you're getting cheap in my eyes.

Sam S

07-19-05, 11:28 AM

Here in norway a cdr-disk is about 30 cents.
If your multi thousand player doesn't deserve just over 2$ of disks you're getting cheap in my eyes.

Exactly! What's the point of risking having a CD-RW discs with potential errors destroy the brains of your $1000+ player for about $2 worth of CD-Rs??

ssabripo

07-19-05, 12:04 PM

I assume you will be able to download them still.....right? :confused:

nothing yet on the website

Badabbing

07-19-05, 01:01 PM

It is what it is, Denon has its reasons for using multiple discs. To be honest with you I'm thankful they're working on getting these updates out. I agree with the previous posts that $2 is a small price to pay to do this right.

I personally wouldn't screw around with reusing the same media for firmware updating, but that's just me. It's really easy to render an EPROM useless if you mess up the erasing or the writing of this non-volatile memory. Be carefull or the system may need to go into repair.

p.s. I've been using the mini discs for my updates and they've been working great at a lesser cost. Just an FYI.

pepar

07-19-05, 01:39 PM

I assume you will be able to download them still.....right? :confused:

I certainly hope so! With a broadband connection, time is no issue. Neither is burning disks, at least not for some of us. ;)

Burkerg

07-19-05, 01:55 PM

BenDover

07-19-05, 02:55 PM

Given the reports of the number of disks (which now that I think of it may just be a way of ensuring things get done in ordered increments), will the DL3 update contain more than just the ability to play SACD over Denon Link?

I use the IEEE1394 port to connect to my receiver and am just wondering whether I would have to bother with this upgrade.

pepar

07-19-05, 03:06 PM

tsteves

07-19-05, 06:05 PM

Tom Grooms
Hopefully to improve navigation speed
:rolleyes:

Hmmm.... Maybe they will send them to me. I requested disks to be sent some time ago and so far nothing... I was hoping they would just wait and send the dl3 update when available. Maybe they will?
Not that I won't just burn them when available online anyway, but it is nice to have an extra set.

free2day33611

07-20-05, 04:09 PM

BenDover

07-20-05, 04:28 PM

I purchased a Dtronics 4-1 DVI switch in order to have both the Bright House Cable and the Denon 3910 go DVI to the Panny 42-THPWD6. The Bright House works ok, but the 3910 will not work over the switch. When I hook the DVI directly from the 3910 to the Panansonic everything is ok. I e-mailed Dtrovision and first they said it was the Denon. After explaining again that DVI directly worked, they came back and suggested I get a HDMI to DVI cable to go from the Denon to the switch. I do not have the HDMI-DVI cable right now. I have read in this thread that DVI-HDMI or HDMI-DVI is not a good idea. Any ideas? Should I buy the HDMI-DVI cable and give it a try? Anyone else using a DVI switch?

I'm using a DVI switch, but not the Dtrovision switch. I recently connected a Zektor DVS5.1; my plan was to use the HDMI on the Denon via a HDMI-DVI cable but that didn't work b/c the Zektor does not handle HDMI-HDMI connections (my TV is also HDMI). Presumably, if the TV had a DVI port it would work, regardless of the fact that I would be using a HDMI-DVI cable/adapter.

Only other thing I can suggest, short of replacement or buying the cable and giving it a try (you should be able to easily return the cable if it doesn't work; or just get an adapter), would be to "power down" both the Denon and the TV (i.e., a full off...maybe even unplug the two), make sure all the cables are properly seated, select the proper input on the switch, and then power up the TV first, then the Denon, also making sure the TV is on the appropriate input (i.e., the particular DVI port your switch is attached to) before powering up the Denon.

Maybe that will allow them to "reacquaint" themselves (perform the initial handshaking, etc.).

free2day33611

07-20-05, 04:32 PM

BenDover, thanks I'll try that tonight when I get home.

pepar

07-20-05, 04:35 PM

free2day33611

07-20-05, 04:44 PM

I also thought that the video portion of the HDMI was the same as the DVI, which is why I thought Dtovision's suggestion did not make much sense.

BenDover

07-20-05, 04:47 PM

Isn't the video portion of HDMI the same electrically as DVI w/HDCP? I hope so because I'm picking up a hi-def DVR tonight from the cable company with an HDMI out, which I'd like to switch with my DVI switcher. My only other choice is component out.

Yes, that is what bothers me, but from what I understand, when you have an HDMI to HDMI connection running through a DVI switch, if that switch doesn't implement HDCP for HDMI (apparently there are different flavors of HDCP, the implementation on HDMI being more "robust" ... i.e., more hacker-proof) then the components won't communicate as they see this situation as being attached to a non-HDCP compliant device. An HDMI source to a DVI display would work fine; a DVI source to a HDMI display would also be fine. The reason here being that the sole HDMI device (whether it be the source or the display), during the handshake, establishes that the other device is a DVI device and then resorts to the DVI flavor of HDCP, making communications possible.

What I don't get entirely is why if you have two HDMI devices connected through a DVI switch they both don't resort to DVI and live happily ever after...but, somehow that isn't how it is implemented.

I had to use the DVI on my 3910 in order to get it to work. I will likely return the Zektor and wait until September when their new, HDMI compliant DVI switch comes out.

[EDIT: If I have time this evening, I might try my Gefen 4x1 DVI switch as I understand that the Gefen has a built-in repeater, which may mean that it would force the two HDMI devices to behave in the manner I suggest above, i.e., each believes it is talking to a DVI device and therefore resorts to the DVI flavor of HDCP.

If I am misstating something here, or if someone can add more insight, please correct me or jump right in :) ]

zimmy135

07-20-05, 05:04 PM

DVD-3910 Firmware Upgrade Registration

Upgrade Version: ESS-6609-B MAKEDAY-413D SYS-6767-5 CNE-1028
Upgrade Date: July 2005

Mrbooboy

07-20-05, 05:11 PM

Just downloaded the DL3 update. From the .pdf file, it appears to be the May upgrade with DL3 added. I wonder why it took so long to release?

JohnGZ28

07-20-05, 05:15 PM

Just downloaded the DL3 update. From the .pdf file, it appears to be the May upgrade with DL3 added. I wonder why it took so long to release?

How many discs?

Mrbooboy

07-20-05, 05:18 PM

The July update is a 3-disc set. If you already updated with the previous 3-disc update (May 2005), you only need to burn and install disc 2 in order to activate DL3.

AlDente

07-20-05, 05:31 PM

The July update is a 3-disc set. If you already updated with the previous 3-disc update (May 2005), you only need to burn and install disc 2 in order to activate DL3.

So much for the 7 disk nonsense. Thank you for the good info Mrbooboy! Had you loaded the May software prior to adding DL3. Any other features/fixes mentioned in the PDF release notes with this upgrade, or is it just the May upgrade plus DL3?

Mrbooboy

07-20-05, 05:44 PM

So much for the 7 disk nonsense. Thank you for the good info Mrbooboy! Had you loaded the May software prior to adding DL3. Any other features/fixes mentioned in the PDF release notes with this upgrade, or is it just the May upgrade plus DL3?

The list of changes is identical to the May 2005 update with DL3 added to the bottom of the list. There is also an "installing DL3" insert at the end of the .pdf which explains how to set the player once the update is installed.

Is there anybody out there that installed the U.K. version a few weeks back that has now installed the U.S. version? If so, any problems to report?

tsteves

07-20-05, 06:02 PM

BenDover
Can't you just use the RGB setting on the 3910 for HDMI with the switch to get it to work?
It's totally HDCP related?

Mrbooboy
"Is there anybody out there that installed the U.K. version a few weeks back that has now installed the U.S. version? If so, any problems to report?"

Oh sure, I'd love to be the first to try this out... I prefer to be 2nd!

BenDover

07-20-05, 06:08 PM

BenDover
Can't you just use the RGB setting on the 3910 for HDMI with the switch to get it to work?
It's totally HDCP related?

...

I did try that when I had it connected to the HDMI port on the Denon. I repeatedly cycled between RGB and YCbCr to no avail...it is purely HDCP related is what I found out subsequently.

Additionally, I think I read in the manual that the player will only output RGB, regardless of what you have selected, if you have the HDMI port connected to a DVI display.

scsiraid

07-20-05, 06:14 PM

AlDente

07-20-05, 06:15 PM

DigiPete

07-20-05, 06:21 PM

DVD-3910 Firmware Upgrade Registration

Upgrade Version: ESS-6609-B MAKEDAY-413D SYS-6767-5 CNE-1028
Upgrade Date: July 2005

Looks just like the european release, without a couple of files (meant to ID the region code and return it to its original state... my guess here). They also have a different loading order compared to the internet available DL3 discs.

I reloaded the US Disc #1 which only has the single file vs. the 3 files in the euro Disc #2 release. No difference in my 3910. Still multi-region and DL3.

Denon Frank

07-20-05, 06:42 PM

Asked Denon about the DL3 release for the US.......here's the reply:

The update, if all goes well, will be posted to our website today.

We are waiting only on our webmaster to load the files for the

DVD-3910.

Best Regards,

J. McGuinness

Denon Electronics (USA), LLC

19C Chapin Road, Suite 205

Pine Brook, N.J. 07058-9385

tsteves

07-20-05, 07:00 PM

AlDente
Come on, where is your spirt of adventure? I'm afraid that with that kind of attitude, you will always be number two.
Yeah? Like VJ Singh? I could be happy like that...

I'll be burning the disks shortly, but I'll bet someone beats me installing it.

tsteves

07-20-05, 07:52 PM

Done.
Loaded all disks. No problems with old version.
Had to re-enable DL3. That's it.
Hah! I'm #1!

uzun

07-20-05, 07:57 PM

Worked for me as well. I hadn't updated past the May update from Denon, but I burned and loaded all 3 discs anyway just out of habit I guess.

AlDente

07-20-05, 08:02 PM

Done.
Loaded all disks. No problems with old version.
Had to re-enable DL3. That's it.
Hah! I'm #1!

Guess that makes me #2. Thanks for blazing the trail.

Zen Traveler

07-20-05, 08:20 PM

3 Disks!!! I am on dial-up. I don't want to take anything for granted, but does that mean my best bet is to get my upgrade mailed to me?

Charles R

07-20-05, 09:19 PM

3 Disks!!! I am on dial-up. I don't want to take anything for granted, but does that mean my best bet is to get my upgrade mailed to me?The actual download is only 3 Meg or so. In the instructions did anyone else notice that in Step 4 it says that initializing the player is required?

JasonColeman

07-20-05, 10:53 PM

Yeah, that's interesting that it says, "required" to re-initialize the player. I wonder what ssabripo will have to say about this! :D Just kidding. I installed the new firmware, but haven't re-initialized yet or experimented with it (10 week old baby trumps upgrade). I've been loving the DL3 since the Euro upgrade, so I'm sure that this one will be great, too!

And so ends the DenonLink3 saga...for now...big smiles everywhere...:D:D:D

Jason

Sam S

07-20-05, 11:05 PM

So if you've downloaded the Europe DL3 upgrade, there's really no reason to do this US version, correct? All the system firmware stats seem to be the same.

pepar

07-20-05, 11:12 PM

Or, if you've applied the May '05 firmware and you don't use Denon Link?

JasonColeman

07-21-05, 12:51 AM

Or, if you've applied the May '05 firmware and you don't use Denon Link?
And what psychopathic nut-job that shelled out between $1,200 and $1,400 would buy this player if they didn't intend on using DenonLink? Just kidding for all you non-Denon-AVR folks out there...but really, DL3 was the only reason I went with the 3910 over the 2910 (and it was SO worth it).

Loving it,

Jason

ps-I still have those really cool coasters for sale if anyone wants them...:)

W4ZOO

07-21-05, 06:14 AM

And what psychopathic nut-job that shelled out between $1,200 and $1,400 would buy this player if they didn't intend on using DenonLink? Just kidding for all you non-Denon-AVR folks out there...but really, DL3 was the only reason I went with the 3910 over the 2910 (and it was SO worth it).

Loving it,

Jason

ps-I still have those really cool coasters for sale if anyone wants them...:)

This "psychopathic nut-job" has been listening to great multi channel output for 18 months on my Yamaha Z9"

But for a taste of reality I tune into this thread and listen to all the Denon heads complain about an un kept promise of a firmware upgrade.

Only KIDDING !

Now you will hear what all the Hub Bub is about.

BillP

07-21-05, 07:45 AM

And what psychopathic nut-job that shelled out between $1,200 and $1,400 would buy this player if they didn't intend on using DenonLink? Just kidding for all you non-Denon-AVR folks out there...but really, DL3 was the only reason I went with the 3910 over the 2910 (and it was SO worth it).

Loving it,

Jason

ps-I still have those really cool coasters for sale if anyone wants them...:)
Well, this psycho did it for the superior audio DACs of the 3910 over the 2910 (and slightly better PQ as well).

BenDover

07-21-05, 08:10 AM

This "psychopathic nut-job" has been listening to great multi channel output for 18 months on my Yamaha Z9"

But for a taste of reality I tune into this thread and listen to all the Denon heads complain about an un kept promise of a firmware upgrade.

Only KIDDING !

Now you will hear what all the Hub Bub is about.

Same here; I purchased the 3910 for its 1394 connection. It has been piping into my Z9 as well :)

pepar

07-21-05, 09:46 AM

And what psychopathic nut-job that shelled out between $1,200 and $1,400 would buy this player if they didn't intend on using DenonLink?

Free-thinking individuals who refuse to let their choice for a high-end pre/pro - and all the performence and flexibility implications associated with same - get co-opted by a proprietary interface and end up with :) a receiver. Or a receiver that they didn't want.

AlDente

07-21-05, 09:50 AM

pepar

07-21-05, 10:00 AM

Well this whole experience has soured me on Denon corp. I like the equipment, but this company has a lot to learn about customer service. I had a phone conversation yesterday with a "Customer Service" rep who when I asked him about the DL3 upgrade told me "the upgrade is not out and when it does come out, you will need to ship your unit to a service center for up-grading". When I questioned him a bit more about this he basically told me to pack sand. Now, I'm in business and when I have a customer who has spent a lot of $ on my products and they have questions, I listen and respond politely, no matter how dumb I might think the question is. Yesterday was not my first bad experience with Denon Customer Service but it may well be my last. Anyone want a good used 3805?

PS I also loaded the US DL3 upgrade version over the UK version I had installed a month ago (thanks to this site) and no issues.

Indeed, judge me not by my lack of problems and mistakes, but how I handle them when they do occur. Customer service is one area where a company can really shine. But, honestly, we here on this thread are not just ahead of the curve on doing our own firmware upgrades, we are totally outside the box. Apologies for the metaphors, but I think I communicated my point. Still, I would send an email or call and report the experience; I cannot believe the whole company is uncaring.

Tom Grooms

07-21-05, 10:11 AM

You should be taking the service questions to your sales person. I call my customers when a relevant upgrade comes out, cut them the discs and mail them out to them with instructions. ;)

pepar

07-21-05, 10:15 AM

You should be taking the service questions to your sales person. I call my customers when a relevant upgrade comes out, cut them the discs and mail them out to them with instructions. ;)

Do you have thousands or tens of thousands of customers? Personal contact is impossible with numbers that big. And it's my experience that most salepersons are not interested in performing this type of customer service.

DennyH

07-21-05, 10:20 AM

I wish I had bought from you then Tom. My sales guy is no help at all. And, that is ironic because thats the reason I bought from a local B/M is for the service I thought I would get. I will know better next time.

JasonColeman

07-21-05, 10:25 AM

Wow, that elicited a response...and as I posted, I was only kidding! :) For me, DenonLink3 was a dealbreaker and what set the 3910 apart from the 2910.

Jason

Tom Grooms

07-21-05, 11:55 AM

Do you have thousands or tens of thousands of customers? Personal contact is impossible with numbers that big. And it's my experience that most salepersons are not interested in performing this type of customer service. Nope, I have under 20 DVD-3910 customers

FoolintheRain

07-21-05, 01:12 PM

rmongiovi

07-21-05, 02:41 PM

Well this whole experience has soured me on Denon corp. I like the equipment, but this company has a lot to learn about customer service.

I soured on Denon when I realized they provide no warranty whatsoever on their equipment. Think of it this way, for about $200 less, I can buy a 3910 from an online merchant on which Denon disclaims all warranty. That means, effectively, if I buy from one of the "blessed" merchants who provide that warranty I've really paid $200 (or about 20%) for a one year warranty. Not really a great deal.

That's the ticket! Don't *ask* the customer if he wants to buy an extended warranty, just CHARGE him for the warranty most companies provide on their products....

Spiky

07-21-05, 03:21 PM

AlDente

07-21-05, 03:26 PM

I went to the Denon site for the DL3 upgrade however there is a problem. It says that it is download only. That would be fine except I currently use a mac. Anyone out there have the same problem as me? I have a superdrive (which is a CD/DVD burner) shouldn't that be enough? If not, will they make this a mail option as well? All the other updates have been.

Thanks!

You have a what????

Kidding.... Just find a friend (unless your one of those MAC Nazis who won't have any friends who have Wintel machines) and have them burn the disks for you. CD burning with a MAC might put you out of bounds (two stroke penalty). :D

Or, you can wait 6 months for the good folks at Denon to make the disks available.

Burkerg

07-21-05, 04:45 PM

FoolintheRain,
I have a Mac and have updated my 3910 several times with burned discs. Just use the built in OSX disc burning. Insert a blank disc, drag files into the finder window, and burn. Then follow the install process. Good luck.
Rob

jqmn

07-21-05, 06:16 PM

My 3910 has recently decided that, despite being set to Auto1, it prefers to jump back and forth between V and F for LOTR EE 1 about half way through making the 3910 unable to process the frames correctly and stutter. I have tried the Auto2 setting as well to no avail. This disk has worked before with no problems and other disks do not appear to have this problem. Is there a way to force film mode in some other way?

[Europe]Boogiem

07-21-05, 06:41 PM

Well, this psycho did it for the superior audio DACs of the 3910 over the 2910 (and slightly better PQ as well).

The Audio DACs you dont use when running denon link 3 ;)

So if you connect the DL3 to a Denon AVR-3805 you will utilise the worse dacs (AVR) than if you run Analog out from stereo L/R (3910 dacs) to the ext.in in the AVR-3805. As long as you dont fiddel with controls on AVR that will make sound pass A/D - digital domain back to D/A in AVR - then you have many D/A A/D conversions and the worst one will set the barrier for the sound.

But still the sound could be great on DL3 - but probably not better than analog at least if you have an amp with dacs "less good" than the ones in the3910 :D

Regards
BL

tsteves

07-21-05, 06:44 PM

Charles R
I'm not sure if initialization is required. I think they always state that.
I did it to be on the safe side after using the "other " DL3 update.
You lose all your settings, but no big deal.

jigesh

07-21-05, 07:12 PM

Probably for this firware, initialization is required so that the initial settings are reset and the DL3 option becomes available. For firmwares prior to this one, initialization was not needed.

pepar

07-21-05, 07:18 PM

I soured on Denon when I realized they provide no warranty whatsoever on their equipment. Think of it this way, for about $200 less, I can buy a 3910 from an online merchant on which Denon disclaims all warranty. That means, effectively, if I buy from one of the "blessed" merchants who provide that warranty I've really paid $200 (or about 20%) for a one year warranty. Not really a great deal.

That's the ticket! Don't *ask* the customer if he wants to buy an extended warranty, just CHARGE him for the warranty most companies provide on their products....

I have yet to use the warranty on any of my A/V gear. If the savings buying outside the channel is great enough, I do it and - possibly - face the consequences later. I have no problems with a manufacturer having policies that incent dealer loyalty, but someone somewhere in their channel is not being loyal. Or their products wouldn't show up on ebay at a substantial savings over "B" stock from Dakmart. We all know the pros and cons and make our buying decisions as we see fit. Personally, I try not to get too emotional about it; it is what it is.

tsteves

07-21-05, 07:39 PM

Boogiem
I don't think BillP is using a 3805.
Those of us who are using a 3805 with Denon link realize we are using the inferior dacs, we basically just want the auto eq from the 3805 using sacd.

DigiPete

07-21-05, 07:55 PM

Boogiem
I don't think BillP is using a 3805.
Those of us who are using a 3805 with Denon link realize we are using the inferior dacs, we basically just want the auto eq from the 3805 using sacd.

Inferior DACs in the 3805, technically yes, if you can hear it... but using Denon Link the digital signal is not going through the 3910 analog output stage and 2 or more feet of rca cable, so you are skipping some losses. Also you get the room equalization and tone control features of the 3805 (in the digital domain) which the 3910 cannot do.

All in all, I would say with Denon Link you break even or do better than 3910 analog output to the 3805 (in a real world setting).

tsteves

07-21-05, 08:46 PM

DigiPete

07-21-05, 11:41 PM

DigiPete
We are trading the dac of the 3910 for the 3805 and eliminating a bit of circuitry and a short cable, but overall I'd stick with the 3910 analog outs if the room eq feature wasn't available over dl3. Call me a heathen.

I agree with you. The room eq. makes a difference. Now if only the 3805 sucessor has the 3910's DACs... :)

Charles R

07-22-05, 12:34 AM

Charles R
I'm not sure if initialization is required. I think they always state that.
I did it to be on the safe side after using the "other " DL3 update.
You lose all your settings, but no big deal.The previous release did not include the Required text. I had only four values to reset so it wasn't a biggie.

JBaumgart

07-22-05, 12:47 AM

Probably for this firware, initialization is required so that the initial settings are reset and the DL3 option becomes available. For firmwares prior to this one, initialization was not needed.

I downloaded the "other" firmware and did not reinitialize. DL3 still works great. Unless there is some other benefit associated with the official U.S. Denon site version, I don't see any reason to mess with it.

JohnGZ28

07-22-05, 09:34 AM

Completed the download and update for DL3 last night. I don't own a Denon AVR at this time but I'm banking on having DL3 active will offset the loss in resale value for mine not passing BTB. :D

pepar

07-22-05, 10:06 AM

Completed the download and update for DL3 last night. I don't own a Denon AVR at this time but I'm banking on having DL3 active will offset the loss in resale value for mine not passing BTB. :D

You're probably OK unless you try to sell it to someone on this thread; these guys are all over the BTB issue. :D

mattbugz

07-22-05, 10:13 AM

Why would you think of selling your 3910?? :) I still have the BTB issue. I can't bear the thought of being without it for 3 weeks.

SOWK

07-22-05, 10:36 AM

SOWK

07-22-05, 10:44 AM

How do I make sure with the denon 3910 analog out dsd signal doesnt get chged when going into and out of the Denon 3805?

Is this right?

3910 Source Direct in audio setup
3910 analog outs
3805 ext. In - (only?)
3805 (then what do I need to have set to make sure no conversion is taking place to PCM?)
3805 out to my Speakers.

Is that the proper setup?

If you could help me with the ? in between that would be great!

SOWK

07-22-05, 10:44 AM

Apperently I still have alot to learn!

Hyabusha

07-22-05, 11:26 AM

For those that have passed the BTB Issue. DO you have a box that has the two small circles filled black? What are you pic/adj settings? Just curious. thanks

JohnGZ28

07-22-05, 11:28 AM

Why would you think of selling your 3910?? :) I still have the BTB issue. I can't bear the thought of being without it for 3 weeks.

Yeah, no chance of it being sold unless I win the lottery. Even then I'd just move it to the 5 car garage attached to the newly purchased mansion so I could listen to SACDs will wrenching on my Lambo and/or Ferrari to pass the time. :D

jigesh

07-22-05, 11:51 AM

JohnGZ28....
Completed the download and update for DL3 last night. I don't own a Denon AVR at this time but I'm banking on having DL3 active will offset the loss in resale value for mine not passing BTB.

I also don't have 3805 anymore; but I did DL3 because I wanted to get rid of the "SE" sticker from under the Denon Link terminal on the rear panel... ;)

Hyabusha....
For those that have passed the BTB Issue. DO you have a box that has the two small circles filled black? What are you pic/adj settings? Just curious. thanks

Originally, my 3910 did not pass BTB so I needed to ship it to Denon, NJ. I shipped in original box, which has two circles, one filled up black. For BTB calibration, pic/adj of the TVs will be more important - not sure what you mean by these adjustments.

SOWK

07-22-05, 02:49 PM

Ok, can someone answer my Questions above?

uzun

07-22-05, 02:53 PM

If you use SOURCE DIRECT mode on the 3910, use the 5.1 analog outs of the 3910 into the ext. in on the 3805, then set the 3805 to Direct or Pure Direct, you will not convert SACD to PCM at any time. You don't get any room correction or equalization, but you use the DAC's on the 3910 to do the D/A conversion.

If you use Denonlink 3 to the 3805, and use DIRECT or PURE DIRECT on the 3805, the 3805 will keep the data DSD, but you don't get any room correction/equalization. You have a single cable, and the DAC's in the 3805 do the D/A conversion.

XBond

07-22-05, 02:56 PM

DigiPete

07-22-05, 02:56 PM

4 Questions!!!

1. Does the 3805 do straight DSD for SACD when using DL3? or does it convert to PCM?

2. What does the room eq do for you audio wise?

3.If I set the Denon 3910 to Source Direct to get straight DSD decoding of my SACD's and input in to a normal CD or DVD Analog inputs of the Denon 3805 what happens? Stays in DSD? or gets then converted to PCM?

4. if I have to go into the Ext. In analog for Real DSD decoding, do I need any other device to play the signal? Preamp, amp?

1. set your 3910 to Denon Link 3rd in the setup menu.
Set you 3805 digital inputs to Denon Link in the 3805 setup menu.
hook up Denon Link cable batween the two.
Play SACD, and set the 3805 to direct or pure direct. Do not select equalization or surround back speaker.

That's it. You should see DSD Direct or something like that on the 3805 display while playing SACDs. If you use the OSD of the 3805 it should show DSD as the signal source.

If you do select equalization or sourround back speakers or any other type or processing, then the 3805 OSD will show DSD>PCM and 88khz for 5.1 or 176 Khz for 2ch.

2. Equalization of the 3805 is meant to improve the frequency response at your listening position. The 3805 uses a mic to sample pink noise and then calculates the frequency response a the location of the mic, and then corrects it to some extent. Flat eq tries to give you flat freq response. Normal does something else, front corrects the surrounds and center channel to be like your front speakers, etc.

3. The source direct control on the 3910 is for the 3910's analog outputs only. Has nothing to do with Denon Link. If you select it, the 3910 analog outputs are set to large speaker for each channel, and you get no conversion of DSD to PCM. PS to listen to multichannel SACDs through the analog outputs of the 3910 you must turn Denon Link off in the 3910.

4. Don't need anything else to get pure DSD to your 3805. use either Denon Link as explained in 1., or analogs to your 3805 as explained in 3.

Hope this helps

DigiPete

DigiPete

07-22-05, 02:58 PM

I recently purchased the 3910 here in the US, and I would really like to make it multiregion. I have searched this forum seeing if there were some instructions, but I haven't been able to find any.

If someone has done this and would share the information, I would really appreciate it.

look back a bit in this forum for the European Denon Link 3 discussions. The link to that firmware also gets you the region free firmware as well.

You must upgrade to Denon Link 3 either from the US site or elsewhere(above). This is a 3 disc upgrade.

To get region free
http://www.sickpuppy.me.uk/DenonMR.zip use this disc instead of the July US firmware upgrade disc #2 that contains the file D31ZSAVD (or equivalent euro disc with the same file)

DigiPete

XBond

07-22-05, 03:12 PM

In other words, is the following correct?

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Burn the 3 CDs, except replace disc #2 with the disc from denonmr.zip
3. Run the firmware upgrade, which will first upgrade to Denon Link 3.

or

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Run it, i.e. all 3 discs.
3. Then run disc #2 from denonmr.

This is, obviously, a do-it-a-your-own-risk thing, but has anyone tried this? Any issues?

XBond

kevinca1

07-22-05, 03:29 PM

If you did the last update all you need to do is burn disk 2. I did it and now am also another satified dl3 person.

XBond

07-22-05, 03:31 PM

I just bought it, so I haven't run any updates at all. :) Did you do the Multiregion thing?

kevinca1

07-22-05, 03:47 PM

Nope no multi region. I dont use it so no need to. if you just bought it im sure you will need to do the 3 disk update.

tor ove

07-22-05, 03:56 PM

I did the multiregion as mentioned above.
Works fine.

XBond

07-22-05, 03:58 PM

Sorry for being dense. Which way?

In other words, is the following correct?

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Burn the 3 CDs, except replace disc #2 with the disc from denonmr.zip
3. Run the firmware upgrade, which will first upgrade to Denon Link 3.

or

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Run it, i.e. all 3 discs.
3. Then run disc #2 from denonmr.

XBond

07-22-05, 04:00 PM

SOWK

07-22-05, 04:20 PM

Let me ask again!

How do I make sure with the denon 3910 analog out dsd signal doesnt get chged when going into and out of the Denon 3805?

Is this right?

3910 Source Direct in audio setup
3910 analog outs (Im only using 2-Channel out!)
3805 ext. In - (only? or can I also use the analog CD input?)
3805 (then what do I need to have set to make sure no conversion is taking place to PCM?)
3805 out to my Speakers.

Is that the proper setup?

If you could help me with the ? in between that would be great!

JohnGZ28

07-22-05, 04:36 PM

Let me ask again!

Try going back a page. I think a couple of people tried to answer your question.

SOWK

07-22-05, 05:37 PM

I know this is the wrong Forum, but it will get answered here!.

On the Denon 3805 Receiver...

are only the Ext. In Analogs not proccessed by the Denon.

And all others proccessed? CD,DVD,VDP,TV,DBS,VCR1,VCR2,CDR/Tape....

This is what denon's site says.

24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs)

Why whould it take A/D and then Convert back to D/A?

I have an external DAC benchmark DAC 1, pluged into the CD analog input on the 3805, should I really only plug it in to the Ext. ins?

I need to know if its taking my perfect Analog signal, converting it to Digital, and then convert it back to Analog?

JohnGZ28

07-22-05, 06:00 PM

I know this is the wrong Forum, but it will get answered here!.

Wow. :confused:

SOWK

07-22-05, 06:04 PM

Wow. :confused:

That is actually a good thing, I think you guy know, the up and up. And I dont think the people with the right answers go to the Receiver forum. :(

Most to all my answers are answered here, and I am greatfull!

tsteves

07-22-05, 06:54 PM

SOWK
DigiPete nicely answered most of your questions. You could wait awhile to see if anyone wants to answer every conceivable question you can think of.
Stay off the cofee!

DigiPete

07-22-05, 07:06 PM

DigiPete

07-22-05, 07:10 PM

Sorry for being dense, but I want to make sure I do this right, as to avoid any problem.

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Burn the 3 CDs, except replace disc #2 with the disc from denonmr.zip
3. Run the firmware upgrade, which will first upgrade to Denon Link 3.

or

1. Download the July upgrade.
2. Run it, i.e. all 3 discs.
3. Then run disc #2 from denonmr.

the first scenario gets you Denon Link3 and multi-region simultaneously.
The second scenario gets you Denon Link 3, then goes back and adds multi-region.

Why do 4 discs to get the same result with just 3?

keenan

07-22-05, 07:53 PM

[QUOTE=SOWK]

Why whould it take A/D and then Convert back to D/A?

QUOTE]

Lets say you want to play back your stereo source using your nifty subwoofer along with your stereo speakers, by taking that input and digitizing it, the 3805 can now use it's digital magic to give you a subwoofer blended in at the crossover frequency you select. It can also give you all the tone&equalization controls and DSP modes you would like.
The 3805 does not need to go through an A/D conversion to do that. It can do this without processing the input when going Direct/Pure Direct. It takes a parallel or copy of the input signal and uses that signal for the SW while leaving the original signal untouched. This is functional for all analog stereo inputs. Denon receivers have been doing this for years although it's not documented in their manuals.

DigiPete

07-22-05, 09:05 PM

[QUOTE=DigiPete]
The 3805 does not need to go through an A/D conversion to do that. It can do this without processing the input when going Direct/Pure Direct. It takes a parallel or copy of the input signal and uses that signal for the SW while leaving the original signal untouched. This is functional for all analog stereo inputs. Denon receivers have been doing this for years although it's not documented in their manuals.

Good point!

Paul_Saul

07-23-05, 05:47 PM

echnaton

07-23-05, 07:36 PM

Can someone point me to an update history that shows/explains what is fixed/enhanced with the various firmware updates? I would like to compare the latest version to what I am running and see if it is worth the update. Thanks.

The description from Denon is always pretty vague. But you can search through this thread. Changes are usually listed here.

JohnJameson

07-24-05, 02:42 AM

I know this is the wrong Forum, but it will get answered here!.
I have an external DAC benchmark DAC 1, pluged into the CD analog input on the 3805, should I really only plug it in to the Ext. ins?

I need to know if its taking my perfect Analog signal, converting it to Digital, and then convert it back to Analog?

Sowk,

Outboard DAC's are usually only used if you have an all-analog pre-amp. Even though the Benchmark may (or may not) have better DAC's the your receivers, it is redundant. With your set-up you want to keep the signal all digital, thats the basic point of using the DL3 feature.

SOWK

07-24-05, 04:30 AM

Sowk,

Outboard DAC's are usually only used if you have an all-analog pre-amp. Even though the Benchmark may (or may not) have better DAC's the your receivers, it is redundant. With your set-up you want to keep the signal all digital, thats the basic point of using the DL3 feature.

Ok I need to Chg my question as this is getting me no where...

Everyone forget DL3 for a second.... Yes I said it. I know (how dare I)

I just want to know on what set of Stereo analog inputs does the Denon 3805 not proccess the signal!!!

If I set up my Denon 3910 two Channel only analog outs, go into

Ext. in, will the denon process it?

And

what if I go into the normal 2 channel whiite, and red analog inputs (like CD input) and set it to pure direct on the receiver, will it proccess it?

When I say proccess I mean take the Analog signal, convert to Digital and then back to analog?

Again from denons site.

24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs)

ted_b

07-24-05, 09:50 AM

DigiPete

07-24-05, 10:40 AM

Ok I need to Chg my question as this is getting me no where...

Everyone forget DL3 for a second.... Yes I said it. I know (how dare I)

I just want to know on what set of Stereo analog inputs does the Denon 3805 not proccess the signal!!!

If I set up my Denon 3910 two Channel only analog outs, go into

Ext. in, will the denon process it?

And

what if I go into the normal 2 channel whiite, and red analog inputs (like CD input) and set it to pure direct on the receiver, will it proccess it?

When I say proccess I mean take the Analog signal, convert to Digital and then back to analog?

Again from denons site.

24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs)

No digital processing is done on the ext inputs of the 3805. I think the other analog inputs don't get digitally processed if you select direct or pure direct.

keenan

07-24-05, 12:33 PM

Again from denons site.

24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs)
Where at the Denon site are you seeing this?

keenan

07-24-05, 12:39 PM

No digital processing is done on the ext inputs of the 3805. I think the other analog inputs don't get digitally processed if you select direct or pure direct.
Correct, it's dependent on the input mode. CD for example, if you select digital input the AL24 processing gets applied depending on what playback mode is selected, if analog is selected it does not.

swatter911

07-24-05, 12:40 PM

Where at the Denon site are you seeing this?

Here (http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=2#PID808)

I think he's looking at the 4806 specs.

keenan

07-24-05, 12:49 PM

Here (http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=2#PID808)

I think he's looking at the 4806 specs.
"3 format bit, built-in signal ieee-1394 or type(analog dual-differential analog on all 24-bit, pcm-1804) of 19.7"d"

If this is the statement he's talking about, it's pure gibberish. Those synopsis' of the features for the equipment on that page need to be proof-read as there is garbage in all of them. My favorite in the 4806 one is "assignable $3,500 mode"... :eek: :D

jwdanie

07-24-05, 02:10 PM

Just a note to those out there running a Mac. I downloaded the update this morning, burned the three CDs by just mounting them in finder and copying the files to the CD as directed, and the update worked perfectly. I'm not sure what the Denon warning is about for Mac users, but it doesn't get much simpler than just dragging the files to the CD, burn, and eject. No burning software is needed, just the os.

Specifics: Mac Mini running OS X 10.4.2 w/ CD-RW (not a SuperDrive)
Maxell CD-R discs burned at 8x

Direct download link:
http://www.usa.denon.com/support/downloads/D31ZSAVD.zip

Jim

pepar

07-24-05, 05:24 PM

SOWK

07-24-05, 09:47 PM

AVR-3805

7.1 A/V Receiver with Dolby Digital Surround EX, Dolby Pro Logic IIx & DTS ES Discrete 6.1 • Dolby Digital Surround EX, Pro Logic IIx decoding with Cinema,Music and Game Modes • dts ES Discrete 6.1 and Matrix 6.1 decoding • dts Neo:6 Stereo to Surround decoding • dts ES 96/24 5.1 decoding for DVD Video • HDCD decoding • New DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices HammerHead SHARC 32 bit floating point DSP processor • New 7.1 channel Auto-Setup and Room EQ function with optional DENON microphone DM-S305 or other manufacturers microphone • 7 Channels equal power amplifier section • 120 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD) • 160 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD) • 16 Burr-Brown PCM-1791 24 bit, 192 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels, in differential configuration • Real 24 bit, 192 kHz Digital Interface Receiver •
24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs)
• Pure Direct mode defeats Video, Front Panel Display circuitry and with Analog sources the Digital circuitry • ALPHA 24 Processing Plus (AL24+) on all channels • Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250Hz) • 3 Assignable Component Video inputs (100MHz Bandwidth), with On-Screen Display • Video Conversion of Composite to S-Video and/or to Component, with on-screen display • 7 sets composite and "S" video inputs • 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) inputs for multi-channel formats, such as DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD • 5/7 Channel Stereo • Digitally regulated volume control with .5dB increment adjustments and step range of -80 to +15 • Audio Delay adjustment to match audio signals with video signals(0-200ms) • Personal Memory Plus • DENON Link 3rd (Super Audio CD & DVD-Audio) compatible digital input • 7 assignable digital inputs (5 Optical, 2 Coaxial) • 2 Optical digital outputs • 11 analog inputs including built-in AM/FM tuner • True 3 Source, 3 Zone functionality with Discrete Power, Source Select and Volume control for each zone • (2)Multi-Zone stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level (Zone 3 fixed only) • (1) Multi-Zone Composite Video output • Power Amplifier Assign function, lets you assign 2 of the 7 amp channels to drive Zone 2 or 3 speakers directly • Direct Access Tuner presets by remote • New EL backlighting pre-programmed/learning remote • RS-232C Port for Third Party Control Systems • Remote I/O ports • Assignable +12v triggers (2) • Detachable Power cord • Full System Setup/Parameter control on front panel, with feedback on front panel display (Monitor is not needed for setup) • Dimensions: 17.1"w x 6.7"h x 16.9"d • Click on the Tech Note icon for the Auto Setup and Room EQ feature chart in pdf format • Click on the Review icon for the Auto Setup and Room EQ specifications with non-Denon microphones • SRP

I am looking at the right product, Im not that stupid! lol.

So conclusion???

If in pure direct everything is still in the analog domain?

DigiPete

07-24-05, 10:57 PM

longbow

07-25-05, 12:03 PM

Look at the next line:

• Pure Direct mode defeats Video, Front Panel Display circuitry and with Analog sources the Digital circuitry

Also, why don't you download the owner's manual, and see what it says about this issue.

These are wonderful pieces of equipment but they can get complicated. Plus I have yet to see a well done Japanese to English translation in a manual. Things like this are never as clear as they should be. Particularly when they are major selling points.

SOWK

07-25-05, 01:08 PM

These are wonderful pieces of equipment but they can get complicated. Plus I have yet to see a well done Japanese to English translation in a manual. Things like this are never as clear as they should be. Particularly when they are major selling points.

Thank you. But I have been asking alot of question people just havent though of, Im more advanced then the typical user. Btw, I have the manuals, and did read then before posting my questions. I dont need to download them.

Also alot of people still think you can't do DVD-Audio over Digital coax, or Optical.

But you can....

2 Channel only, and unprotected material.

longbow

07-25-05, 02:22 PM

Thank you. But I have been asking alot of question people just havent though of, Im more advanced then the typical user. Btw, I have the manuals, and did read then before posting my questions. I dont need to download them.

Also alot of people still think you can't do DVD-Audio over Digital coax, or Optical.

But you can....

2 Channel only, and unprotected material.

Considering the quality of the DAC's Denon uses I know that there are a lot of people who were buyers of the products to take advantage of their great processing. It is good to know which input and setting allows the utilization of what DAC. That is where I find the manual of both the 3910 and the 3805 a bit wanting.

Of course the solution is to play with my toys... Darn....I am forced to play...:D

cwolf

07-25-05, 03:15 PM

Has anybody had good success using the bass management on the 3910 multi-channel outs with no subwoofer?

I don't have a sub, but my fronts are floor-standers that can handle bass at least better than the center and surrounds. So, I set the front floorstanders to large and center and surrounds to small, subwoofer set to "no".

I ran a low frequency sweep to each speaker and I do get the low freq re-routed from the center and surrounds to the fronts with this configuration. But, I get a really bad output level dip, like almost -6dB, in the small speakers well above the point where I set the xover frequency. The overall signal stays low until well below the xover frequency when the large speakers finally start kicking in.
In addition to this large dip across the xover point, there are several other 1-3dB dips across the sweep (200Hz-20Hz), and the whole signal is down about -6dB on all speakers (set large or small) compared to the level I get using "source direct" mode.
I tried different xover freq. points and I verified my 54tx doesn't try to do any bass management of it's own on the multi-channel inputs (so I'm not getting interaction between the player and the receiver both doing xover filtering).

I just couldn't get any setting on the 3910 except source direct mode to work well at all.

SOWK

07-25-05, 05:47 PM

pepar

07-25-05, 06:02 PM

RowdyUSP40

07-25-05, 06:40 PM

Ouch!

BTW, it's K Mart that has the Blue Light Specials.

Ouch is right!!!! My stomach hurts from laughing so hard.... don't ask me why.... it just got me!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Thanks!!! pepar Not bad for a Monday! :p

JasonColeman

07-25-05, 09:30 PM

I just wanted to quickly say that anyone that says the denon 3910's or Denon 3805's DACs are anywhere as good as the Benchmark DAC 1 is crazy. You obviously never tryed the DAC1 and or should get speakers that can give you an audiable difference (if you hear no difference, you probably will get the same sound quality out of the $30 walmart blue light special dvd player.)
I know that the 3910's DACs are better than the 3805's, and I'll throw caution to the wind and assume that the Benchmark dusts them both, but for me the benefit of having the 3805 do the processing and room correction far outweighs whatever slim margin of sonic advantage I may or may not discern by sending it an analog signal. Like many other folks, I've got a room that just wasn't designed for listening to music or watching movies (at least the audio part of movies), so the 3805's where I'd prefer to have the action happen.

Jason

JohnGZ28

07-25-05, 10:09 PM

Ouch!

BTW, it's K Mart that has the Blue Light Specials.

Yeah, it was just a matter of time before this line of questioning lead us to K-Mart. It was fun watching it get here. :D

SOWK

07-26-05, 08:29 AM

Only trying to get some amusment out of you guys! I'm glad its working! But thanks for the answers from the people that gave feedback. I apreciate it.

pepar

07-26-05, 09:32 AM

Only trying to get some amusment out of you guys! I'm glad its working! But thanks for the answers from the people that gave feedback. I apreciate it.

Hi SOWK,

Did you notice the "Smiles" to the right of the window for posting replies? You might try using one of them to clue us all in on what you're feeling. It's really the only way we can tell if someone is joking or cruisin' for a bruisin'. :)

tsteves

07-26-05, 08:15 PM

No smilies for SOWK. TROLL.
You 3910 owners realize she/he's messing with your resale price?
Troll=SOWK

merc

07-26-05, 10:25 PM

SOWK,
I'd put my Denon 3910 up against the Benchmark DAC 1 anytime you like. :D

pepar

07-26-05, 11:14 PM

No smilies for SOWK. TROLL.
You 3910 owners realize she/he's messing with your resale price?
Troll=SOWK

Someone's really only a troll when we bite. I think all that happened was that we chuckled.

pepar

07-26-05, 11:15 PM

merc: You on anti-troll maneuvers? :D

tsteves

07-27-05, 06:24 PM

Internet troll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
"In the context of the Internet, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages intended to cause a disruption in discourse. The word is also often used to describe such messages."

No biggie, by the time I sell mine his posts will be burried deeply in AVS or Google.
If I was selling mine today I'd be unhappy about this kind of posting, I would think.

pepar

07-27-05, 06:38 PM

JohnGZ28

07-27-05, 06:48 PM

No biggie, by the time I sell mine his posts will be burried deeply in AVS or Google.
If I was selling mine today I'd be unhappy about this kind of posting, I would think.

I don't think this one post will have any impact on your resale value. Now the 5000 posts on BTB will render you unit worthless. So just box it up and ship it to me now to save yourself the misery. :D

Badabbing

07-27-05, 07:36 PM

I don't think this one post will have any impact on your resale value. Now the 5000 posts on BTB will render you unit worthless. So just box it up and ship it to me now to save yourself the misery. :D

My 3910 is BTB, I didn't buy the silver one because it wouldn't have matched my other components. :rolleyes: ;)
OK, don't anybody hit me with a mallet while I'm not looking, I already got my butt kicked last week for being exposed by my son (just wait till he gets older I'll get even ;) ) on how much I spent on my (sorry honey "our" :p ) 3910. Part of it was my mad money though :D , but I still had some spleining to do. She got over it though and does like the picture quality, not to mention that she now brags to all the neighbours on how awesome our HT sounds. What's up with that? Why can't wives just support our frivolous spending right from the start. Then they add insult to injury and try to take part of the credit. :D

SOWK

07-27-05, 08:06 PM

Wow, you tell the truth and you get slammed for it. I have both, I also Bought the denon 3910 after the DAC1, The Denon is a Great SACD player, the dac 1 cant do dsd, and is a better transport then my cheap ass samsung 841 dvd player, thats why I bought it. Just because there is a $1000.00 dac that sounds better for cd and dvd-audio doesnt mean the denon is worthless, It does cd, dvd-a, sacd, and btw does play movies. My dac 1 can only do digital to analog conversion.! lighten up already!

JohnGZ28

07-27-05, 08:25 PM

Hook is back in the water.

Let's kick back grab a sick pack and watch the fun.

cwolf

07-28-05, 02:27 PM

bump....
to digress for a moment from trolls and kmart v walmart ;)

I'd be interested in hearing about other people's experiences with using 3910 bass management for DVD-A and SACD verses using source direct mode.

Has anybody had good success using the bass management on the 3910 multi-channel outs with no subwoofer?

I don't have a sub, but my fronts are floor-standers that can handle bass at least better than the center and surrounds. So, I set the front floorstanders to large and center and surrounds to small, subwoofer set to "no".

I ran a low frequency sweep to each speaker and I do get the low freq re-routed from the center and surrounds to the fronts with this configuration. But, I get a really bad output level dip, like almost -6dB, in the small speakers well above the point where I set the xover frequency. The overall signal stays low until well below the xover frequency when the large speakers finally start kicking in.
In addition to this large dip across the xover point, there are several other 1-3dB dips across the sweep (200Hz-20Hz), and the whole signal is down about -6dB on all speakers (set large or small) compared to the level I get using "source direct" mode.
I tried different xover freq. points and I verified my 54tx doesn't try to do any bass management of it's own on the multi-channel inputs (so I'm not getting interaction between the player and the receiver both doing xover filtering).

I just couldn't get any setting on the 3910 except source direct mode to work well at all.

DigiPete

07-28-05, 03:22 PM

bump....
to digress for a moment from trolls and kmart v walmart ;)

I'd be interested in hearing about other people's experiences with using 3910 bass management for DVD-A and SACD verses using source direct mode.

If you set the sub to 'no', and surrounds/center to small, you are taking the frequencies being sent to those speakers that are below crossover freq, and sending them... nowhere (no sub).

Source direct sets all speakers to large, so you do get some bass to the surround and center speakers. You can get the same effect by setting all speakers to large in the setup menu.

Burkerg

07-28-05, 05:10 PM

I've just received my third defective 3910. The first one didn't pass below black. Second one passed BTB, but the video would randomly cut out, and it emitted a high-pitch squealing noise. Third one...no BTB...and the Denon Link doesn't work. When I go into the setup of my 3805 to set the input of the DVD to DLink, it says "DLink No Signal: Ext. In." WTF!? Any ideas?

I am gaining a deep hatred for Denon, a company I used to love. I'm probably going to buy a 5910, so I can just stop worrying with all of this. I bought a 3805, because I planned to get the 3910. Now I have a 3805, and I want a DVD player that will connect via Denon Link. Thus...I am stuck purchasing a 5910. I just don't know how a company can do this to its customers.

Please don't flame me. I'm just venting, and hoping someone can help me figure out what's up with this DL. Oh...and I have upgraded the firmware. Thanks.

Rob

BenDover

07-28-05, 05:24 PM

Burkerg

07-28-05, 05:35 PM

DL3 firmware installed, and DL3 set to on. HDMI still outputs audio, and receiver receives no DL signal. Thanks for your help.

Rob

Badabbing

07-28-05, 05:40 PM

DL3 firmware installed, and DL3 set to on. HDMI still outputs audio, and receiver receives no DL signal. Thanks for your help.

Rob

I understand your frustration, I still would reinstall the latest firmware and re-initialize the deck as per the instructions. Finally I would make absolutely sure the DL3 connections are good and seated.
Good luck,

SC

Burkerg

07-28-05, 05:50 PM

I've reinstalled the firmware twice, and the connection is secure. I haven't tested the cable, though. Anyone know where I can find a replacement DL cable? Thanks.
Rob

tsteves

07-28-05, 06:21 PM

Burkerg
Try a new Denon link cable. (regular CAT5/CAT5e/CAT6 cable) and see if that helps.
I had mine always going to analog ext in, replaced the cable and all was well.
Badabbing
Sounds normal - have you ever "won" an argument? It's a package deal.

DigiPete

07-28-05, 07:02 PM

DL3 firmware installed, and DL3 set to on. HDMI still outputs audio, and receiver receives no DL signal. Thanks for your help.

Rob

If all esle fails (i.e new cable), try re-initializing the 3805 as well as the 3910

tsteves

07-28-05, 07:13 PM

Burkerg
A basic CAT5/5e/6 cable should be pretty easy to grab locally and quickly. Worth a shot.
After that I'd go with DigiPete's suggestion. Of course, you'll have to set up everything again.

pepar

07-28-05, 08:40 PM

I've reinstalled the firmware twice, and the connection is secure. I haven't tested the cable, though. Anyone know where I can find a replacement DL cable? Thanks.
Rob

Try the IEEE1394.

swatter911

07-28-05, 08:52 PM

keenan

07-28-05, 10:56 PM

DL3 firmware installed, and DL3 set to on. HDMI still outputs audio, and receiver receives no DL signal. Thanks for your help.

Rob
Don't you have to turn off the audio output on the HDMI link..?

JasonColeman

07-28-05, 11:20 PM

If your 3805 is like my 5805, the setup "DLink No Signal: Ext. In." is asking you what you want it to use if there is no Dlink signal.
Rob,

This is correct...the 3805 is asking what to default to if there's no signal present from the DLink. I also found this confusing, but the DL3 works great. I use it for everything now, including 2-channel stereo which I had always run via analog and let the 3910 do the work. It will handle everything beautifully between the 3805 (or 5805) and the 3910 (or 5910/5900). Just check the front display when you pop in a disc...it should flash DLink and then display whatever format you're playing (DD, DVD-A, SACD, etc).

Good Luck!

Jason

Burkerg

07-28-05, 11:25 PM

Thanks, guys... I've got it all setup properly. This is my third 3910, and it's the only one on which I couldn't get the DL to work. The DVD player's Denon Link light even lights up, but no signal is being passed. I just don't know what the hell to do. I'm tired of exchanging these things. I'll try to locate a cable and see what that does. Thanks again.

Rob

Burkerg

07-28-05, 11:26 PM

Oh...and how do I re-initialize the 3805? Thanks!

Update: I just tried a different cable and re-initialized the 3805...to no avail. I hate Denon. Grrrr...

JBaumgart

07-29-05, 12:27 AM

Wow, that is bad luck. I've never had any problems with either my 3805 or 3910, or even my 11 year-old AVR-3000 for that matter, so I guess I should love Denon. ;-)

Burkerg

07-29-05, 12:47 AM

Update II: I tried another cable, and viola! DL3 is active. What are the odds of trying two faulty cables? Now I just have a unit that doesn't pass BTB. Does anyone know how long it takes to ship to Denon and have them fix it? Thanks to everyone for all your help. I truly appreciate it.

Rob

JasonColeman

07-29-05, 12:55 AM

Rob-

Is it really worth it to send your unit to Denon to have them fix the BTB issue when you might not even notice that it wasn't there? Only playing Devil's Advocate here...:)

BTW, glad you got the issue resolved...maybe you can retract your "I hate Denon" statement? :D Unless of course you still hate them...

Jason

Burkerg

07-29-05, 01:01 AM

JohnGZ28

07-29-05, 11:48 AM

Do you really not notice the lack of below black information? As I understood it, it makes a huge difference. On my other units, as soon as I realized they didn't pass, I freaked and sent them back. How big of a deal is the lack of BTB? Thanks!
Rob

It all depends on who you talk to and what type of display you have.

Bugatti says the new Veyron 16.4 will go 252mph when it is finally on the streets. Considering the type of coin they want for it it better go 252mph. But if someone gave me one it really wouldn't matter to me if it goes 252 or not as that's faster than I even need to go in a four wheel vehicle.

Some will argue that this is not a good analogy as being able to pass BTB aids in the proper set up and calibration of the player and TV while being able to go 252 mph has nothing to do with the basic operation of the vehicle. But, it's my argument and I'm sticking with it. :)

Mine doesn't pass BTB and looks fantastic hooked up to my CRT TV.

Just my $.02

ssabripo

07-29-05, 02:13 PM

Jason,

I'm still not terribly happy with them. They really need to work on their quality control and customer service. So...I guess I'll partially retract my statement...or at least reword it.

Do you really not notice the lack of below black information? As I understood it, it makes a huge difference. On my other units, as soon as I realized they didn't pass, I freaked and sent them back. How big of a deal is the lack of BTB? Thanks!

Rob

I think the analogy of the bugatti Veyron is pretty good actually.....although I would argue that it is closer to a Lamborghini Murcielago :D ......the 5910 is more in the Veyron's price range :p

but seriously, the BTB issue is not going to change the quality of your viewing experience with this unit....yes, it is good to know is there, and yes, it may help with certain calibration setups. But it will totally not make a difference on how good a DVD looks on your display! If you are upset because your Murcielago goes 201 instead of 205 mph, then I guess it is important :o

cwolf

07-29-05, 03:43 PM

If you set the sub to 'no', and surrounds/center to small, you are taking the frequencies being sent to those speakers that are below crossover freq, and sending them... nowhere (no sub).

Source direct sets all speakers to large, so you do get some bass to the surround and center speakers. You can get the same effect by setting all speakers to large in the setup menu.

Thanks for the reply Digi,
My test results showed that this is not the case. If I set the sub to "NO", the bass from the small speakers would get routed to the large speakers.
Only if I set sub to "yes" and didn't actually have one plugged in, then the bass would get routed from small speakers to the unconnected sub channel....nowhere.

Test1: I set front=large, center+surrounds=small, sub=no, xover=100Hz

results1:
1a: low frequency sweep to R front, would output full range of sweep (as low as the speaker could handle anyway) out the front speaker @ ~ 72dB

1b: low frequency sweep to R surround, would output sweep to from surround @ ~ 72dB until about 120Hz then would drop to ~ 68dB until around 100Hz when some signal would be output from the fronts as well. Around 80Hz, enough signal is coming out of the combined R surround and both fronts to add back up to ~ 72dB overall.
As the sweep drops lower, the output from the fronts continually intensifies while the output from the R surround continually drops. The overall signal output varies significantly with several +/- 3dB peaks and dips as the sweep moves down to ~ 40Hz and lower where I ultimately begin to lose output as I hit the limits of my speaker's low freq. response.

Test2: same as test 1 except sub is set to "yes"
2a: low freq sweep to R front, resulted same as in 1a, the large front passed full range @ ~72dB

2b: low freq sweep to R surround, would output from R surround @ ~ 72dB until about 120Hz where it steadily dropped to about 68dB by 100Hz and continued to fade as the bass was redirected to a non-existent sub, no R surround signal was redirected out the large fronts.

Test3: 3910 set to source direct mode
3a: low freq sweep to R front output @ ~ 84dB across full range of sweep from 200Hz until about 40Hz, lower frequency outputs varied from about 78dB to 74dB until response faded away completely.
3b: low freq sweep to R surround output @ ~ 84dB across full range of sweep from 200Hz until about 50Hz, lower frequency outputs varied from about 78dB to 74dB until response faded away completely.

hypothesis1: with bass management on and no sub, the low freq is redirected from the small speakers to the large speakers but overall output is down about -12dB relative to source direct mode. There is also a large dip of more than -4dB as the signal passes over the crossover point and bass is redirected from the smalls to the large (This is opposite of what you would expect in my setup where you would expect a slight overall increase in output as signal is redirected from a single RB-35 bookshelf to the 2 larger and more sensitive RF-35 floorstanders).
Additionally, the overall output across the sweep is very non-linear with several additional +/-3dB peaks and dips.

hypothesis2: with sub set to "yes", large speakers are passed full range signal with no redirection, small speakers get bass redirected to the sub channel which in my case had nothing connected to it.

hypothesis3: the source direct mode outputs about +12dB higher than "managed" mode. There is no bass management in source direct mode. But, in my setup, the result appears to be a much more linear response with much better fidelity than with using the bass management.

for further investigation:

Why is there a drop in overall output as the bass management redirects signal from 1 bookshelf R surround to 2 floorstanders when, if anything, it would seem the opposite should occur? I would expect the overall system response to be fairly linear until I hit the crossover point and then should get an increase in bass response as signal is redirected from a single bookshelf to two floorstanders.
By adjusting the crossover frequency setting, I should have been able to find a setting where the increase of bass response was not too disproportionately high to the amount of signal being redirected from the small speaker.
This just wasn't the case, more signal was lost from the small speaker than was redirected to the large speakers at any crossover frequency setting from about 1/2 octave above the crossover point until about 1/2 octave below the crossover point.....WHY!? WHY!? WHY!?

Is the additional observation of +/-3dB dips in the bass managed output really a characteristic of the 3910 bass management, or is it just accentuating variances in the freq response of my speakers or listening room that I'm failing to observe in my source direct test measurements? (since it's outputting +12dB higher and I'm not doing a careful freq response plot, just listening and watching a SPL meter in real time)

To answer this, I'll need to do a more careful freq response plot of my system in source direct mode and compare it to a plot in managed mode.

PS:
A few other things I learned/observed during my testing:

The crossover filter employed by the 3910 doesn't appear to be a very high Q filter, maybe about 2nd order, as there was still quite a bit out output at 50Hz from the small speaker with the xover set at 100Hz. A careful plot will tell more about this.

In source direct mode, the channel level controls still work and will affect output levels from the multichannel outs even in source direct mode. It was not clear from the manual whether this was the case. (All my channel levels were left at 0dB in all my testing)

DigiPete

07-29-05, 04:09 PM

for further investigation:

Why is there a drop in overall output as the bass management redirects signal from 1 bookshelf R surround to 2 floorstanders when, if anything, it would seem the opposite should occur? I would expect the overall system response to be fairly linear until I hit the crossover point and then should get an increase in bass response as signal is redirected from a single bookshelf to two floorstanders.
By adjusting the crossover frequency setting, I should have been able to find a setting where the increase of bass response was not too disproportionately high to the amount of signal being redirected from the small speaker.
This just wasn't the case, more signal was lost from the small speaker than was redirected to the large speakers at any crossover frequency setting from about 1/2 octave above the crossover point until about 1/2 octave below the crossover point.....WHY!? WHY!? WHY!?)

Perhaps your speaker efficiencies are different between your fronts and surrounds causing volume imbalances as the bass management is trying to split the signal.

What material are you using for the frequency sweeps (DVD, DTS, SACD)? I believe the 3910 changes the bass levels depending on the material being played, while using source direct mode.

Also, I don't know that the redirect to the fronts (in absence of a sub) is the way Denon setup the bass management to work. You may be seeing this odd behavior because the system is not designed to work this way. Not sure.

As for your 4 db dips and peaks, this can easily be bass response varying because of acoustical room modes (and maybe some comb filtering-interference between your front and surround). even 10 db variatons in low bass response is not unheard of. Try moving your speakers around and see if it changes.

or perhaps you have found a bug in the 3910 bass management scheme???

DigiPete

cwolf

07-29-05, 05:46 PM

Perhaps your speaker efficiencies are different between your fronts and surrounds causing volume imbalances as the bass management is trying to split the signal.
Yeah, that's why I'd expect that when the more efficient fronts start getting some of the bass signal, if anything, I would see the level begin to increase around the crossover point. I suppose it's possible that if my amp was malfunctioning, I could get a dip in amplifier output at the point I'm sending a split signal to 2 or 3 speaker channels instead of just ouputting 1 active signal to 1 speaker. I know that's not the case though, my amp's not losing signal from any 1 channel when outputting from another. I'd definitely notice that! :eek:

What material are you using for the frequency sweeps (DVD, DTS, SACD)? I believe the 3910 changes the bass levels depending on the material being played, while using source direct mode.
I'm using Avia test DVD for low frequency sweeps and my ratshack SPL meter to do the calibration. I'm taking the signal from the 3910 multichannel outs and feeding them to the multi-channel inputs of the 54tx.

For high fidelity listening tests, I'm using both DVDA's and regular CD's including some very high fidelity DVDA recordings from AIX records.
Also, I don't know that the redirect to the fronts (in absence of a sub) is the way Denon setup the bass management to work. You may be seeing this odd behavior because the system is not designed to work this way. Not sure.
I'm not sure either. Maybe DENON figured that if somebody cares enough to buy a 3910 to listen to DVD-A's using the multi-channel outs, then they can surely spring for a sub-woofer! So, maybe they just never worried about getting the bass management working really well between small and large channels. Only the small and sub channels. It's too bad if that's the case, becuase it really should work right. If I feed a digital signal into my pioneer 54tx, its bass management between small and large with no sub works very smoothly. It doesn't seem like there should be any reason for the 3910 to not be able to do it well also.
(This was actually one of the reasons for my getting the 3910 in the first place, so I could do multichannel bass management on it since the 54tx doesn't have management for the multichannel inputs or an i-link digital input to use instead)

It would be interesting to try hooking up a sub and seeing if I do get good results with the 3910 between speakers set to small and a sub to verify whether the problem is indeed only between small and large speakers. (If anybody in the SF Bay Area wants to donate a sub to science, I'd be really happy to test this out!)

As for your 4 db dips and peaks, this can easily be bass response varying because of acoustical room modes (and maybe some comb filtering-interference between your front and surround). even 10 db variatons in low bass response is not unheard of. Try moving your speakers around and see it it changes.
DigiPete
Yeah, I'm also thinking these things are a possibility and that I'm just noticing them more with bass management turned on than I am in source direct mode. To really know this, I'll have to do a much more careful plot of system freq response than I did with just watching the SPL meter in real time as the sweep goes by.

I know there is a lot of room stuff going on that I haven't measured. When I do low freq sweeps in source direct mode at ~ 85dB, I can hear and feel the bass waves phasing and reflecting from different strengths and directions as the sweep moves through the lower freqs from about 80Hz - 35Hz.
(Making my whole apartment and the things in it rattle and vibrate is an incredible amount of fun!....I have the good luck of having empty apartments both next door and downstars. I think I'd be very dangerous with a sub! :D )

Burkerg

07-29-05, 05:57 PM

DigiPete

07-29-05, 06:04 PM

I know there is a lot of room stuff going on that I haven't measured. When I do low freq sweeps in source direct mode at ~ 85dB, I can hear and feel the bass waves phasing and reflecting from different strengths and directions as the sweep moves through the lower freqs from about 80Hz - 35Hz.
(Making my whole apartment and the things in it rattle and vibrate is an incredible amount of fun!....I have the good luck of having empty apartments both next door and downstars. I think I'd be very dangerous with a sub! :D )

I would suggest doing your bass sweeps at lower volume (~75 db or less) so you don't excite as many rattles etc, because those rattles definitely register on the meter, from what I have experienced.

DigiPete

07-29-05, 06:09 PM

Okay, guys...
I noticed another strange problem last night. Once I got a functioning cable for my DL, I plopped down to listen to some music. I noticed that every time the compressor to my air-conditioner came on or when someone flipped a light switch, the sound cut out. The video feed (DVD-A's) was unaffected, but the audio disappeared for a split second. I watched my 3805's display, and it showed that the incoming audio signal was being cut. Everyone knows from all my bitching that this is my third 3910. Well, none of the others had this problem with my power. Does anyone have any ideas as to what this indicates? What can I do to correct this? I've already got the player connected to an Acoustic Research power conditioner. What else could I do? Is this indicative of another problem with the player? I'm very gun-shy at this point, so please help me out. Thanks.
Rob

Your power conditioner may be cutting the power to the acessories when it senses low voltage from the wall plug (turning on the A/C), and the 3910 may be sensitive to those temporary interruptions.

Or you may have loose connections in your electrical system (or poor power quality) causing power fluctuations or low voltage.

Plug your 3910 in to another outlet without the power conditioner and see if it helps.