Originally posted by maxvengeance111
So basically I cant upconvert this player unless I am using DVI or HDMI, cant upconvert with component?

IIRC, there isn't any upconversion via the component output, no.

I use Auto 1 for film based DVDS and Video 1 for Video based DVDs.

I'm simply curious about the Auto 2 mode and how Denon advises that it's
appropriate to use it. I assume it's for Superbit DVDs but didn't notice anything in the documentation that explains.

I've experimented with Video 1 and 1080i with the Carnivale DVD's and
have found the PQ to be ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. I can detect no
difference in PQ compared to HD TV. Depth and detail are unbeleivable.

I've watched 2 discs and 4 episodes so far and detected only 1 instance
of MB that was barely perceptable.

One of the benefits of this player (with so many options)is experimenting and sharing experiences.

/George

Originally posted by BillP
If I remember correctly, umr has stated this based on his looking at schematics of several HDTVs. Try searching his name in the Rear Projection Unit forum, or PM'ing him.

That is correct. These TV's do covert the digital input to analog. This is also true of all Sony Grand Wegas made to date and the current JVC D-ILA sets. The only RPTV's that I know have a pure digital path are the Samsung DLP's. I have not seen detailed schematics for all the others, but I would guess most still are converting to analog. This is generally a very minor issue if done properly compared to other problems I have seen.

I have used a Denon DVD-3800 with a Mits DLP with good success except for some white crush caused by the TV.

What DLP do you have? Which model I mean. Also is the DVD 3800 an upconverting player?

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
What DLP do you have? Which model I mean. Also is the DVD 3800 an upconverting player?

I don't have a DLP, but I have tinkered with a few. I have a Sony KF-50XBR800 Grand Wega LCD. The DVD-3800 is not a scaling player just one of the best 480p analog players ever made.

Does anyone know that has a Mits DLP whether or not this player works properly with their set? If not, umr, do you know where I can find some info from people who actually have a Mits DLP and use it with some kind of upconverting player? Being that you tinkered with them and know a little about them?

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
Does anyone know that has a Mits DLP whether or not this player works properly with their set? If not, umr, do you know where I can find some info from people who actually have a Mits DLP and use it with some kind of upconverting player? Being that you tinkered with them and know a little about them?

Learing how to search is a useful thing. Here are a few posts of Mits DLP owners with your player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4881852#post4881852

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4604530#post4604530

Sorry, didnt mean to ask a stupid question, just thought you knew of a specific post. I found some info, but not a lot doing my own search. Those two links had people complaining about things I fortunately do not have to worry about.

IMHO upconverting players are overhyped. I have a 3910 and the best artifact free picture that I get is sending the component 480P to my Hitachi 57SWX20B. With DVI, too many artifacts were present (and I don't mean macroblocking). Background noise is much higher when upconverted.

Dave

Hmm...good to know. I will try the component output when I get home. I dont know about overhyped. Maybe with our TVS it is overhyped. But my older Samsung 43 DLP and Vinc dvd player i have in the bedroom look fantastic.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
IMHO upconverting players are overhyped. I have a 3910 and the best artifact free picture that I get is sending the component 480P to my Hitachi 57SWX20B. With DVI, too many artifacts were present (and I don't mean macroblocking). Background noise is much higher when upconverted.

Dave Thats interesting. I also own a 57swx20b and a 3910. However my 3910 is hooked up via s-vid to a very small CRT TV for DVD-A menu navigation in a MC music system. I may have to drop it into the HT and play around. Since, our TVs only display 540p/1080i and your sending it a 480p image the TVs scalers are still in play. Do you know if the tv scales 480p-540p or does it go through another deinterlacing process in the set? As many of you are well aware, Im not a video guy. ;)

Back to the AUTO2 thang... I find it works better than AUTO1 with anime series discs that, while they're nominally 24p film-based content, are riddled with 60i video post-production effects and/or bad encoding, bad edits, bad flags etc. It probably does this with a slight detriment to the overall pq, but I haven't been able to discern it; it's more a deinterlacing reaction-time thing I think. And there are still some discs out there that are totally hopeless, but I've found a vast improvement overall with most titles with this player that I would have found to be comb-city on most every other.

I use AUTO1 exclusively for "real" NTSC movies of course. I've been playing around with the VIDEO# modes for my MST3K discs, but haven't settled on any mode looking any better than the others yet (video footage interspersed with video post chromakey over film, probably all flagged as video. Gah!)

Finally, regarding setup and pq; I think it's worth repeating for those using the "Normal" vs. "Enhanced" blacks -- when you use the squeeze mode or change the resolution (and maybe other settings), that setting reverts to Enhanced but still shows Normal as it's setting! This is very likely going mess up your calibration and may lead to artifacts becoming visible. Always doublecheck!! I also recommend re-reading the "Source Options" sticky at the top of the forum to reinforce how to properly set up black levels -- if it's not exactly right, you're just asking for artifacts.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
IMHO upconverting players are overhyped. I have a 3910 and the best artifact free picture that I get is sending the component 480P to my Hitachi 57SWX20B. With DVI, too many artifacts were present (and I don't mean macroblocking). Background noise is much higher when upconverted.
In many cases, you're correct.

Upconverting DVD players are like the S-Video outputs on LaserDisc players; in that case whether you got a better picture from the S-Video output depended upon whether the player or your display had a better comb filter.

Likewise, whether an upconverting DVD player does anything for you depends on which has better upconversion, the DVD player or your display (or outboard upconverter, for that matter.)

Originally posted by Fellini8.5

Finally, regarding setup and pq; I think it's worth repeating for those using the "Normal" vs. "Enhanced" blacks -- when you use the squeeze mode or change the resolution (and maybe other settings), that setting reverts to Enhanced but still shows Normal as it's setting!

Wait... "reverts"? Isn't the factory default the NORMAL setting? As such, if you leave it on Normal all the time and change res and/or use squeeze more, are you saying it not only overrides its own defaults by switching to Enhanced but also that the OSD doesn't indicate it? Wow, that sounds really shoddy to me, if true.

Tom,
For some reason on my Hitachi, when a 1080i signal was sent over DVI from the DVD player...it left a more pronounced hump in the middle IRE's on grayscale which had the 50IRE window jumping to over 7500K. On component, I can keep this at 6950K. At first I thought it was my 5900, but the same thing happened when I switched to the 3910 (I am measuring with Milori). Also, the 3910 over DVI made good DVD transfers look amazing, but bad transfers were REALLY BAD!!! Also, there was a lot more background noise with the 3910 over DVI to my display. The consistent problem though was with my display, not the players because I have seen them on other TV's and this wasn't the case so YMMV.

Dave

Originally posted by umr
That is correct. These TV's do covert the digital input to analog. This is also true of all Sony Grand Wegas made to date and the current JVC D-ILA sets. The only RPTV's that I know have a pure digital path are the Samsung DLP's. I have not seen detailed schematics for all the others, but I would guess most still are converting to analog. This is generally a very minor issue if done properly compared to other problems I have seen.
<...snip...>

Thanks to this forum, I was able to get up to speed on the DVD-3910 in a short period of time and prepare myself for taking the plunge! Last nite I dove in and bought the DVD-3910. :D

I got home too late to hook it up, so tonite should be the main event. I am curious to see which does a better job of upconverting to 1080i- my Pioneer Elite PRO-530HD or the DVD-3910. Any thoughts on which has the better scaler?

As I understand it, to test the DVD-3910's scalar, I have to use the DVI since the analog component interface does not support 1080i. I am assuming, per umr's comments, that my RPTV then converts the 1080i DVI digital video input to analog. Since this RPTV uses 3 analog CRTs, does that mean my video path is Digital (from the 3910 to the 530HD), converted to analog by the RPTV, then converted to digital for processing and then back to analog to display on the analog CRTs? Whoa...

Doug

Originally posted by djnewlin

I got home too late to hook it up, so tonite should be the main event. I am curious to see which does a better job of upconverting to 1080i- my Pioneer Elite PRO-530HD or the DVD-3910. Any thoughts on which has the better scaler?

As I understand it, to test the DVD-3910's scalar, I have to use the DVI since the analog component interface does not support 1080i. I am assuming, per umr's comments, that my RPTV then converts the 1080i DVI digital video input to analog. Since this RPTV uses 3 analog CRTs, does that mean my video path is Digital (from the 3910 to the 530HD), converted to analog by the RPTV, then converted to digital for processing and then back to analog to display on the analog CRTs? Whoa...

Doug

I don't know the specs of your Elite, but I would guess that the Denon's scaling chip is superior. Though which is better to your eyes would be subjective.

If you feed your TV 1080i through DVI I would think the Pioneer would just do a straight D/A conversion and then send it on to the CRTs. No processing necessary. If you fed it 720p or 480i/p, it would process digitally first (assuming it can't display 480p natively), then D/A, then on to the CRTs.

Rick

Hi, I just got my 3910 a little while ago and hooked it up through denon link to my 3805. No matter what I try I cant seem to get the denon link output turned on, and the option in the selection menu remains greyed out. Is there something really simple I'm missing? Thanks for any help

You can't have a disc in the player in order to turn on denon link.

Dave

So I went to Ultimate where I got all my gear. We grabbed a HDMI panasonic because the 3910 was hooked up to a projector. Put on Master and Commander, and even with the terrible glare on the screen from the lights in the store, the employee and I were shocked. The artifacts i have been seeing with my Denon with HDMI was all over the place with the panasonic. Put the component on, only interlaced signal because the player didnt have progressive hooked on, and no artifacts at all, picture was actually better. I will try this with my 3910. Should have the same results and I will be happy.

Should have the same results and I will be happy.

Well, not *too* happy right? That means your Mits has issues. :(

Max why not just hook the 3910 up to your Samsung DLP in the bedroom? That would be a pretty good test too. Or do the artifacts appear in HDMI only and not DVI? Plus you'd need an HDMI to DVI cable as well, so maybe I'm answering my own question. :)

Rick

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
You can't have a disc in the player in order to turn on denon link.

Dave

Correct! And why do you want denon link anyway. You will not be able to use the 6 analog cables I dont believe. I think you are better off letting the superior DACs of your 3910 decode the signal at least for music. I have the same setup and I decided not to even use Denon link. I am simply using Ext in on my 3805 for all music and my digital optical connection for movies

my 2 cents

mismatched

The TV looks fantastic with HD and XBOX play...it was the HDMI DVD player that did look that great in certain scenes...I will put the component on and it should be fine.

I just received my 3910 from Crutchfield. Can someone tell me how to check the firmware #? Is the newest firmware #6? I should have the latest firmware, but you never know...

Also, how do you make the 3910 "region-free"?

Thanks.

S.Anderson

You guys are getting me worried. Should I use a HDMI cable or a DVI cable for the best picture to my infocus 4805? I need to order the adapter ASAP.

Originally posted by Rieper
I just received my 3910 from Crutchfield. Can someone tell me how to check for firmware? I should have the latest firmware, but you never know...


Don't be so sure. I got my 3910 from Crutchfield on Friday (1/21), and it was -2. We're up to -6, with -7 apparently only a few weeks away.

Here's how to check:

1. Turn the small power button off on the front of the unit.
2. Hold down the PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE buttons on the front of the unit, both at the same time.
3. Turn the power back on and continue holding the buttons for 3 seconds, then let go.
4. After “>II LOADING” shows on the display, press the 3,2,6,5 buttons on the remote (in that order) and then press the MENU button to see the version. Press MENU again five times to see the other settings for the firmware.

--

I'm now using -5, because that's the latest version I can find with a multi-region hack.

The InFocus 4805 isn't capable of handling HDMI's higher color bit rate, so DVI and HDMI will look the same. It all depends if you plan to eventually upgrade to an HDMI projector and if you're running very long lengths. I use DVI to the M1 with my 4805/3910.

Originally posted by mismatched
Correct! And why do you want denon link anyway. You will not be able to use the 6 analog cables I dont believe. I think you are better off letting the superior DACs of your 3910 decode the signal at least for music. I have the same setup and I decided not to even use Denon link. I am simply using Ext in on my 3805 for all music and my digital optical connection for movies

my 2 cents

mismatched

You CAN use both Denon Link and the 6 analog cables, just not simultaneously of course. I use Denon Link for everything but SACD and with the 3805's Auto/Room EQ it sounds WAY better than analog, the difference in DAC's notwithstanding (I think this is overblown personally). You can set up the 3805/3910 to be completely automatic for each type of disc by following the instructions on Denon's web site.

Whether Denon Link will sound better than analog depends on your room and speaker system, but if you have the 3805 I would definitely give it a try as you may be surprised.

Jeffrey use dvi to dvi (as the M1 input of the infocus is dvi) and get a Geffen m1 to dvi adaptor as some of the adaptors out there don't work properly with infocus kit (such as pacific cable), this one does.

M

Thanks so much for the help dave/mismatched/jbaum. I cant believe that was frustrating me for days =]

I'll be sure to try out just using the analog connects as well. Thanks again, guys.

Originally posted by Engine Joe
Don't be so sure. I got my 3910 from Crutchfield on Friday (1/21), and it was -2. We're up to -6, with -7 apparently only a few weeks away.

Here's how to check:

1. Turn the small power button off on the front of the unit.
2. Hold down the PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE buttons on the front of the unit, both at the same time.
3. Turn the power back on and continue holding the buttons for 3 seconds, then let go.
4. After “>II LOADING” shows on the display, press the 3,2,6,5 buttons on the remote (in that order) and then press the MENU button to see the version. Press MENU again five times to see the other settings for the firmware.

--

I'm now using -5, because that's the latest version I can find with a multi-region hack.

Engine Joe,

Can you PM a link to the firmware you are currently using. I just checked and my 3910 which I received yesterday from Crutchfield is also -2. Geez, you'd think they'd have it updated by now. Must be older 3910 stock over at Crutch.

Thanks in advance Joe.

Originally posted by Rieper
Engine Joe,

Can you PM a link to the firmware you are currently using. I just checked and my 3910 which I received yesterday from Crutchfield is also -2. Geez, you'd think they'd have it updated by now. Must be older 3910 stock over at Crutch.

Thanks in advance Joe.

Ditto for me as well. Just got mine from Crutch on Monday, and it was -2 firmware as well, and a fairly old production date of Aug or Sept 04. I guess they are still selling their initial stock. I upgreaded to -6 from Denon's website with no problems.

DigiPete

3910 on Ebay chepest i have seen!!


item # 5746318690

An easy way to check to see if you need a firmware update.

Go to the Denon website, enter your serial number and it'll tell you if you need a new version. If you do, it'll help you get what you need. You can either download the firmeware or request a cd via US mail.

here's the link:

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

Originally posted by GeorgeG02
An easy way to check to see if you need a firmware update.

Go to the Denon website, enter your serial number and it'll tell you if you need a new version. If you do, it'll help you get what you need. You can either download the firmeware or request a cd via US mail.

here's the link:

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

Thanks, but I was looking for the region free firmware which Joe mentioned was version -5. I doubt I'd find it on Denon's site though.


S.Anderson

Originally posted by cmorreale
3910 on Ebay chepest i have seen!!


item # 5746318690

That seller is shady. $45 for ground + $25 for insurance??? You can send FedEx ground to anywhere in the country with insurance for about $15 total.

that seller is a friend of mine and bought two because he got a good price...and decided to sell because he just had a baby!!!! when i bought my 3910 i paid $50 for shipping!!!

i just checked fedex and it is $35+ for shipping depending on destination

Problems Problems Problems......

Whatever happened to buying a DVD player because hey it looked nice and the brand was good, and plugging it in, and that's it?

I don't want to buy a player, and have it fail me ;_;

*worries*

Originally posted by Daphoid
Problems Problems Problems......

Whatever happened to buying a DVD player because hey it looked nice and the brand was good, and plugging it in, and that's it?

I don't want to buy a player, and have it fail me ;_;

*worries*

Just be a little patient :)

HD-DVD is around the corner (ie. Q4 2005) and should be the answer to your DVD fantasies. :O

Originally posted by cmorreale
that seller is a friend of mine and bought two because he got a good price...and decided to sell because he just had a baby!!!! when i bought my 3910 i paid $50 for shipping!!!

i just checked fedex and it is $35+ for shipping depending on destination

Wrong. Your friend is still shady. http://fedex.com/ratefinder/shipInfo

Try it. Box is 19"x21"x9". I tried shipping from Lousiana to California with $900 insurance, rate was $17.37. He is going to charge you $70 minimum for shipping + insurance. Riiiiiigght

I also have a 3910 and a 3805, and I had been using Denonlink for everything other than SACD as well, but after I spent an hour or so with a sound meter setting things up, I find sound quality on everything is improved using Source Direct on the 3910, Pure Direct Ext In on the 3805, and foregoing any Room EQ on the 3805, even with movies. Using Source Direct is the only way to prevent the 3910 from doing a DSD->PCM conversion on SACD's, and I find it helps the sound of DVD-Audio as well.

Speaker level and distance adjustments still work on the 3910 in Source Direct mode, but Speaker Size, Crossover freq and equalization are all bypassed. At first using Denonlink with Auto-EQ sounded better, until I switched the 3910 to Source Direct mode and spent the time to accurately calibrate distance and sound levels using the 3910's setup.

I can still use Coax digital for CD's if I want to, but overall I find I get much better sound, especially on hires source material doing things in analog using the 5.1 outs. Setting Source Direct on the 3910 is what yielded the big sonic improvements using analog vs. digital.

So basically I'm off the digital hookup in my case, of course personal preferences and sonic characteristics of individual rooms may yield other choices for other people, but I found after I spent a little time on it I am indeed better off using the audio section of the 3910 vs. using the Auto-EQ and the audio section on the 3805.

I am also thinking about using the 5.1 analog connection when I get my 3910. I will be using it with a Pioneer 45TX receiver. I still do want to use my Auto EQ though as I think my room needs it especially for movies. How much better did the analog conection sound than the digital one, even when you used your EQ on the receiver ?

New firmware coming out sometime this week, as told to me by Denon. Hopefully it will come out today or tomorrow.

For Hi Resolution DVD-audio and real well made CD's there's quite a difference between analog using Source Direct on and Denonlink. It's as if a veil is lifted from the material, revealing significantly more detail. It was not any better until I chose Source Direct on, in fact I was preferring the sound of the Auto-EQ'ed digital signal.

For movies things were trickier, I had to get the distance/level settings just right before the analog sounded as good as the Auto-EQ'ed version. For now I have digital Coax for soundtracks that I think sound better via Digital. For better movie soundtracks the more detailed sound in analog mode plays better than the Auto-EQ'ed sound of Digital Coax. You cannot have Denonlink active and set the room parameters in the 3910, so Denonlink is out if you are serious about analog interconnects.

For SACD you have to use source direct ON in the 3910 or you will get your DSD data transformed to PCM internally, which from what I can hear on my SACD's in an A/B test is a bad thing. If you use firewire to an external receiver then you can just handle everything on the receiver end, but almost all receivers will convert DSD to PCM to do bass management, especially if they have their own crossover frequencies etc. The Sony solution is fixed at 80Hz I think and has a fixed curve that is too restrictive for people who want bass management capabilities. To go beyond the sony SACD bass solution almost all devices convert DSD to PCM, including the Denon's.

For movies things were trickier, I had to get the distance/level settings just right before the analog sounded as good as the Auto-EQ'ed version. For now I have digital Coax for soundtracks that I think sound better via Digital. For better movie soundtracks the more detailed sound in analog mode plays better than the Auto-EQ'ed sound of Digital Coax. You cannot have Denonlink active and set the room parameters in the 3910, so Denonlink is out if you are serious about analog interconnects.

I guess I am a little stupid. But what does the analog setting for movies with this player? I just use a dig coax for movies. I thought that was all you could do. Thanks

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
I guess I am a little stupid. But what does the analog setting for movies with this player? I just use a dig coax for movies. I thought that was all you could do. Thanks nope, the 3910 decodes DD and DTS internally :)

You let the 3910's Dolby Digital & DTS decoders do the work, instead of the receiver's. This allows the AL24 processing to work on DVDs also. Sounds far superior with my Yamaha A1 receiver, as it has 1st generation DTS decoding.

Originally posted by GeorgeG02
An easy way to check to see if you need a firmware update.

Go to the Denon website, enter your serial number and it'll tell you if you need a new version. If you do, it'll help you get what you need. You can either download the firmeware or request a cd via US mail.

here's the link:

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

I did what you say and I my 3910 has version ESS 6066-5 (not sure I am remembering the first 4 digits correctly. When I went to the link and entered my serial and model number the response was basically that I did not need a firmware upgrade. But in a couple posts above it say that "we" are up to version -6 wth -7 on the way.

Maybe I should email the Denon guys and ask for the latest upgrade disk???

In an earlier post I was chided for saying something regarding the limitations of using Denonlink. I used general language and was "misunderstood." :)

I take a quote from a recent post by Uzun to better make "my" point:

"You cannot have Denonlink active and set the room parameters in the 3910, so Denonlink is out if you are serious about analog interconnects."

And my statement was in the context of having a 3805/3910 combo as I and others have. Namely for seriously good audio use the analog connects and take advantage of the superior DACs in the 3910!

There I said it and perhaps more or less correctly this time! :)

mismatched

Originally posted by mismatched


Maybe I should email the Denon guys and ask for the latest upgrade disk???

You can download it from the Denon USA website.

In other news, Audioholics has a press release posted announcing that Denonlink has been approved for SACD. Never thought I'd see that happen!

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
New firmware coming out sometime this week, as told to me by Denon. Hopefully it will come out today or tomorrow.

Do you know what it will be "fixing?"

I tried and the site says I do not need an upgrade. Now the current version is -6 and my machine read out -5! what the #$%?

Anyway I called Denon talked with Tony who said to sit tight as version -8 (they skipped -7 for the 3910) is in the process of being put on the website for download. Now I hope at that time the site will now say that I need an upgrade!!:)

Originally posted by BillP
Do you know what it will be "fixing?"

Denon guy Tony said today that it mainly deals with black levels...

Originally posted by Engine Joe
In other news, Audioholics has a press release posted announcing that Denonlink has been approved for SACD. Never thought I'd see that happen! Oh great, now more Denon products will have this absolutely ridiculous proprietary connection. I guess it's good news if you have a 3805...

You let the 3910's Dolby Digital & DTS decoders do the work, instead of the receiver's. This allows the AL24 processing to work on DVDs also. Sounds far superior with my Yamaha A1 receiver, as it has 1st generation DTS decoding.

So how do I know if my receiver is better then the player or vice versa? I have a brand new MArantz 8500. I would imagine the receiver being better but not sure. What is AL24?

Denon guy Tony said today that it mainly deals with black levels...


Thats what my guy said as well...didnt get specific.

Originally posted by uzun
You cannot have Denonlink active and set the room parameters in the 3910, so Denonlink is out if you are serious about analog interconnects.


Yes you can, for SACD, at least with a 5900-3805 combo, and I think the the 3910 is identical. Unless I'm mis-understanding what you mean. It's explained here,

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/5900_3805%20setup%20tips.pdf
5900_3805 setup tips.pdf (application/pdf Object)

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
So how do I know if my receiver is better then the player or vice versa? I have a brand new MArantz 8500. I would imagine the receiver being better but not sure. What is AL24? There is no real "better", only different. Hook it up and let you own ears be the judge. Then come back and tell us your thoughts.

I don't have a 3805 so Denonlink means nothing for me. I would like the sound to be as good as possible going into my receiver without loosing flexibility on speaker levels and EQ.

But what is AL24?

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
But what is AL24?

Alpha Processing 24 bit........

in a nutshell, it converts and processes the digital information from 16 bit to 24 bit, prior to going to the DACs. I can tell you that it works beautifully, and the sound is amazing. The 2910 and the 3910 with AL24 are in different leagues in sound quality

If you already have the 24 bit audio output DACs required for the exotic audio formats, and only 16 bit data coming from your CDs, you basically have two choices. You can send the 16 bit data in unaltered (essentially leaving the low order 8 bits set to zero), or you can try to make some intelligent guesses as to how to fill in those low order 8 bits so as to produce fewer artifacts in the D/A process that would otherwise result from the "unrealness" of true 24 bit samples ALWAYS having the lower order 8 bits coming up zero. I.e., you can prepare the data stream so that the D/A process works better. Some such methods of making guesses have been trademarked.
--Bob

Originally posted by mismatched
Denon guy Tony said today that it mainly deals with black levels...

Hopefully it's fixing the fact that the black level gets changed to Enhanced (even though it still says Normal) whenever I manually put squeeze mode "On."

So is that better then my receiver? I thouhgt my receiver had 32 bit processing...not sure...i am talking only of movies, i dont care about the music as much. I hope the firmware fixes more then just making sure enhanced stays in the correct setting

Hey, is there a forum already for trying to figure out all of the player settings with the 3910? Like the sharpness, chroma, all of that stuff? Its hard to figure out, the manual is no good. Thanks

maxv...,
Odds are your receiver has a similar massaging process for any 16 bit digital audio input stream -- not just CDs. It may or may not do a better job when combined with its DACs than the player does in combination with ITS DACs. If you think about it, the type of "guessing" that's being done here depends upon what you assume is likely to be in the audio stream. Is it music? Or is it mostly voice as from DVD movies? In addition, CDs have their own particular technology quirks, and a process specifically designed for CDs may produce more optimal results than a process intended to work across a variety of different sources.

Some of these trademarked algorithms do useful, significant stuff. Others are mostly hype.

As is always the case, the question is whose ears do you trust to tell the difference?
--Bob

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
So is that better then my receiver? I thouhgt my receiver had 32 bit processing...not sure...i am talking only of movies, i dont care about the music as much. OK, lets try this again. Hook it up and you be the judge. You cant figure this out on paper no matter how hard you try and nobody here can tell you what sounds better to your ears.

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
.... and nobody here can tell you what sounds better to your ears.

Here here!!!

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
OK, lets try this again. Hook it up and you be the judge. You cant figure this out on paper no matter how hard you try and nobody here can tell you what sounds better to your ears.

Though some will try to.

I guess I was asking for an explanation of the processing and not which one will "sound better". The manual is pretty terrible in explaning things, and thats all I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion. I am well aware that things will sound different to different people.

It appears keenan is correct regarding analog out level/delay settings if the 3910 works in a manner similar to the 5900.

You can setup the sound level and distance options with denonlink off on the 3910. You then enable Denonlink. The sound level and speaker distance settings will be greyed out once you enable denonlink, but the values you last entered will be used for SACD playback.

So you can use analog for SACD with denonlink active, you just can't edit the paramenters while denonlink is active. Unfortunately DVD-Audio and Video appear to all be downconverted once Denonlink is active, so you lose the ability to get good audio reproduction via analog when you activate denonlink for DVD material, but it looks like you probably retain the settings for SACD material.

Looks like Denonlink finally got approved for SACD transmission though, so a new set of options will open up for the 3910/3805 user sometime soon I think.

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
I guess I was asking for an explanation of the processing and not which one will "sound better". The manual is pretty terrible in explaning things, and thats all I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion. I am well aware that things will sound different to different people.

You're earlier reference to a "32bit" processor refers to the logic chip in the 3805 that handles the VFD, the application of how you match up inputs and so forth. It has nothing to do with audio signal processing. It's the "CPU" that makes everything work together.

As far as what sounds better? I agree with the previous posters, go with your ears and what sounds good to you, you are the only one you have to please. Technically, the DACs are better in the player, but that is only a small part of what you hear coming out of the speakers.:)

Ok, thanks for the explanation. So if I wanted to see how its sounds with my players Dacs for movies in DD or DTS I would have to unhook the Dig Coax and hook up the 5.1 cables or just the normal stereo cables? How does that work for like ES OR EX movies?

You shouldn't have to unhook anything - you can have the 5.1 cables and the digital cables connected at the same time. Your receiver should be able to switch between audio inputs fairly easily - probably even one button. On my Onkyo, it'd be swtiching between "MCH" (multichannel) and "DVD" (which I have set as Coax IN 1) on my remote. So I just sit back and listen, then switch - nearly seamlessly.

On Denons, I think it is Ext. In instead of MCH. YMMV by manufacturer.

Thankyou for the replies regarding my question way back when Mr. Butler. Thankyou also to mark antony. I am really looking forward to getting this machine in my hands on monday

Originally posted by Engine Joe
You shouldn't have to unhook anything - you can have the 5.1 cables and the digital cables connected at the same time. Your receiver should be able to switch between audio inputs fairly easily - probably even one button. On my Onkyo, it'd be swtiching between "MCH" (multichannel) and "DVD" (which I have set as Coax IN 1) on my remote. So I just sit back and listen, then switch - nearly seamlessly.

On Denons, I think it is Ext. In instead of MCH. YMMV by manufacturer.

That's exactly right, most decent receivers and high end preamps have the ability to switch between digital (optical/coax) to MULTI (5.1 analog). I have them both hooked up on my 3910 to my Rotel 1066 and with the click of a button I can switch between the two. It's not even close, the MULTI (Internal 3910 DAC's) is definately superior than digital to the processor. I even use MULTI on 2 channel material, the internal DAC's on the 3910 are much more superior than your average receiver DAC's. As far as ES and EX, regardles wether it's DTS or DD is not going to happen in MUTLI. These MULTI signals are L,R,C RR,LR and Sub there's your 6 analog inputs, unless your pre pro or receiver is able to combine the rear channels into one logical CB channel it's probably going to be silent.

SC

New firmware coming out sometime this week, as told to me by Denon. Hopefully it will come out today or tomorrow.

Thx Max !!

Please keep us posted, does anyone know what it does/fixes ??

-- Cain

As far as ES and EX, regardles wether it's DTS or DD is not going to happen in MUTLI. These MULTI signals are L,R,C RR,LR and Sub there's your 6 analog inputs, unless your pre pro or receiver is able to combine the rear channels into one logical CB channel it's probably going to be silent.


Thats what made sense to me. I guess I will stick to digital, I have a 7.1 system, wouldnt want to waste two speakers.

Originally posted by Rieper
Just be a little patient :)

HD-DVD is around the corner (ie. Q4 2005) and should be the answer to your DVD fantasies. :O

So should I wait on a DVD player then? Or get the hopefully marvelous 3910?

Whats the scoop on the control input and output connectors in the back.

Any way to use this with one of the Xantech blocks ?

I know I'm dreaming...

I use a Xantech IR repeater/distribution block and I just plugged a patch cable into the input on the back of the Denon. No IR emitter necessary. Same for my Denon receiver.

Originally posted by keenan
Yes you can, for SACD, at least with a 5900-3805 combo, and I think the the 3910 is identical. Unless I'm mis-understanding what you mean. It's explained here,

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/5900_3805%20setup%20tips.pdf
5900_3805 setup tips.pdf (application/pdf Object)


Those are the instructions I followed and they work great for my 3910. I believe I saw a more recent version that specifically refers to the 3910 and the 5900, so the procedure is the same.

Since I have a rather odd room with openings all around, I find that the receiver's eq makes a tremendous difference. I am looking forward to being able to use Denon Link with SACD, if the coming announcement is in fact for real.

I use a Xantech IR repeater/distribution block and I just plugged a patch cable into the input on the back of the Denon.

Wow, I did not know you could do this. Can you give me a little more detail?? What type of patch cable?? Where exactly do I plug that sucker in to my 3910 ??

thx!!

Originally posted by Cain
Wow, I did not know you could do this. Can you give me a little more detail?? What type of patch cable?? Where exactly do I plug that sucker in to my 3910 ??

thx!!

I'm interested in this as well, I'm getting ready to move all my equipment to a spot not really inline with a normal remote.

Originally posted by dstroot
I use a Xantech IR repeater/distribution block and I just plugged a patch cable into the input on the back of the Denon. No IR emitter necessary. Same for my Denon receiver.

Thanks. I still have to get a connecting block from Xantech.


I know that Yamaha uses the same standard. Can I use one of the outs and ins to connect the 3910 and the Yamaha directly and have the two see the commands. Yamaha has a setup menu in iLink for controlling auto play and other functions. I thought this was through the iLink cable and never been able to get it to work.

Originally posted by Daphoid
So should I wait on a DVD player then? Or get the hopefully marvelous 3910?
Dapoid-

The 3910 IS marvellous and has become even better with the approval of SACD over DenonLink. There's nothing "hopefully" about it...

Jason

Originally posted by JasonColeman
Dapoid-

The 3910 IS marvellous and has become even better with the approval of SACD over DenonLink. There's nothing "hopefully" about it...

Jason

Careful, that press release if read carefully, indicates that SACD over Denon Link has been approved for SACD 2.0 only, not SACD 1.3, which is the one we all use. The telling line in the PR is,

"Products in accordance with the updated specification will be available in the near future."

This has nothing to do with how good a machine the 3910 is though. Daphoid, I would not wait until HD DVD comes out, I would get the 3910 if I were you as the HD dvd players are a waaays down the road and will be expensive initially. The longer you procrastinate, the longer it is until you can enjoy the 3910. And the longer you wait, the more you will try and rationalize waiting for HD DVD, which means you may not have a player until sometime in 2006.

Go for it!!

Well nearly blind (read all 80pgs so I wouldn't get flamed) I've still got some questions.

I'm about to purchase a new universal (3910, SP1000) that will be hooked up DVI to the IF 7205. So far I have seen there is an issue getting this to work. Is it the DVD player, FP, or cable? I plan to use the 10M IF m1>DVI and will have a Dtronics switch to send both the DVD and HD OTA to the FP.

My second question is in regards to the audio. I've noticed many plan use the analog outs for all formats which was my plan. I've read it, but it is still not clear to me if adjustments are needed for the differing audio formats. Once calibrated using AVIA test tones, will the sub level need to be changed when watching in DTS? DVD-A? SACD? The L/R seem to output the full range signal which I will use for 2 channel.

Does the above work or are you just sending hi-rez audio out the analogs and using digi coax/optical for DD/DTS?

thanks,
scott

Originally posted by scervin
My second question is in regards to the audio. I've noticed many plan use the analog outs for all formats which was my plan. I've read it, but it is still not clear to me if adjustments are needed for the differing audio formats. Once calibrated using AVIA test tones, will the sub level need to be changed when watching in DTS? DVD-A? SACD? The L/R seem to output the full range signal which I will use for 2 channel.

Does the above work or are you just sending hi-rez audio out the analogs and using digi coax/optical for DD/DTS? One adjustment works for ALL formats! I use the 6-ch outs for EVERTHING except something I want decoded into Pro-Logic. For that I use the 2-ch analogs & then have my receiver decode the signal (still using the AL24).

Originally posted by scervin
Well nearly blind (read all 80pgs so I wouldn't get flamed) I've still got some questions.

I'm about to purchase a new universal (3910, SP1000) that will be hooked up DVI to the IF 7205. So far I have seen there is an issue getting this to work. Is it the DVD player, FP, or cable? I plan to use the 10M IF m1>DVI and will have a Dtronics switch to send both the DVD and HD OTA to the FP.

My second question is in regards to the audio. I've noticed many plan use the analog outs for all formats which was my plan. I've read it, but it is still not clear to me if adjustments are needed for the differing audio formats. Once calibrated using AVIA test tones, will the sub level need to be changed when watching in DTS? DVD-A? SACD? The L/R seem to output the full range signal which I will use for 2 channel.

Does the above work or are you just sending hi-rez audio out the analogs and using digi coax/optical for DD/DTS?

thanks,
scott

Don't forget, though, that the sub output on DTS/DD material is different than on DVD-A/SACD. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the specifics of this because they've escaped me at this moment. It's something on the order of a 10db to 14db swing.

For speakers I have the levels in my 3910 set to roughly -3, and my sub set to +10. I used the test tone in the 3910 rather than DVE or Avia. Now that I've converted to Source Direct, which according to the owners' manual uses DTS's spec for output, I need to re-calibrate my levels, and I'll likely use DVE for that since the Test Tone is disabled.

Rick

Originally posted by keenen....
Careful, that press release if read carefully, indicates that SACD over Denon Link has been approved for SACD 2.0 only, not SACD 1.3, which is the one we all use.

Typically, technolgies are backward compatible so hopefully if the DenonLink passes SACD 2.0, it should also pass v1.3. Now, which version of DenonLink will pass SACD 2.0 is a question. AVR-3805 accepts DenonLink v.3 and DVD-3910 outputs DenonLink v.2.

Originally posted by jigesh
Typically, technolgies are backward compatible so hopefully if the DenonLink passes SACD 2.0, it should also pass v1.3. Now, which version of DenonLink will pass SACD 2.0 is a question. AVR-3805 accepts DenonLink v.3 and DVD-3910 outputs DenonLink v.2.

Yes and no, I think, although I cannot say for sure because there is not much info about the SACD 2.0 spec available, that SACD 2.0 may require different transmitting and receiving parts, which would make current Denon equipment obsolete for carrying SACD 2.0.

The version that will accept SACD 2.0 is Denon Link 3, which is in the receivers, but Denon Link 3 was implemented before the SACD 2.0 spec came out, so I'm not sure if the current DL3 will work for SACD 2.0.

Bottom line, IMO, is that nothing really has changed as far as getting SACD over current Denon equipment. SACD 2.0 equipment is still 1.5-2yrs away.

SACD 2.0 will also work for HDMI which is also a departure from the IEEE1394 only that was SACD 1.3

Does anyone know if there's a way to select which region you want to view on a multi region enabled 3910 (perhaps in a sub-menu).

As i've found two region 1 disc's, so far, that won't play - it comes up wrong region, despite the fact that all other R1 discs ive tested have played fine.

I've tried switching the machine on and off, but makes no difference. I have firmware 6 and Denon UK installed it, along with the MR hack.

M

Originally posted by mark antony
Does anyone know if there's a way to select which region you want to view on a multi region enabled 3910 (perhaps in a sub-menu).

As i've found two region 1 disc's, so far, that won't play - it comes up wrong region, despite the fact that all other R1 discs ive tested have played fine.

I've tried switching the machine on and off, but makes no difference. I have firmware 6 and Denon UK installed it, along with the MR hack.

M

Mark,

Can you list the two DVD Region 1 discs which do not work for you? I installed the -5 multi region firmware posted earlier in this thread and so far all my PAL Region2 DVDs as well as Region 1 DVDs work perfectly. No copy protection messages or errors.

Thanks!

On further testing I've found 5! So far it's the criterion short cuts (both discs), cannonball run and the re-issue's of universal's billy madison & happy gilmore

M

Ok, I've just checked the firmware I now have in my 3910, and it's -3 :mad:

My question is this: What issues does each firmware upgrade address, and am I right in assuming that each successive upgrade contains all the features of the previous upgrades?

Altough I now only have the -3 firmware, at least it makes my 3910 multi- region playable. This is very important to me because I have lots of non-Region 1 discs.

I don't want to upgrade to -6 firmware (or the immenent -8), only to lose multi-region capability on my 3910.

Does anyone have answers to these? Thanks in advance.

electronic70

Hi everyone,
I just hooked my new Denon 3910 to my Infocus Screenplay 110, only to find out that the image swaps and is not stable. It seems that the projector gets the input and then drops it, giving everytime the connection screen (PC1- Digital). Has anyone else have had problems with this ?? Does anyone have my same configuration and get results ???

My Firmware is -5 (the multiregion one)
Already tried to use another cable, same results...
With my computer the DVI inputs seem fine on the projector

What am i supposed to do ???? Could it be an HDCP incompatibility ???

The LS110 is HDCP compliant, so....


Please help me out 'cos I'm really freaking out on this. Thanks in advance for any help.

Originally posted by Cain
Wow, I did not know you could do this. Can you give me a little more detail?? What type of patch cable?? Where exactly do I plug that sucker in to my 3910 ??

thx!!

Regarding IR distribution/repeaters:

I use the Xantech stuff - there is an IR pickup in my theater and my equipment is all in another area - the IR emitters have little 1/8" jacks that plug into the Xantech block.

For the Denon gear I used some cables that I think I actually got at Radio Shack - they are essential 1/8 inch jacks at each end and they are mono cables, not stereo. The Denon has a "room to room" input. Plug it in there.

Denon Back Panel (http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/photo.asp?s=home&p=DVD-3910&f=DVD3910S%20Back.jpg&c=4)

Do you have a link to the Xantech stuff you used?

Hi all,

I just got my 3910. I've already upgraded the firmware and everything seems to be working except that I'm unable to see BTB in DVE's pluge pattern.

The player is hooked up to a Samsung HLP 4674 via DVI. IRE setting is 0, Black is set to normal. Any ideas what might be wrong? I have already tested IRE 7.5 and it doesn't work either.

What's weird is that my previous player was a 2910 hooked up to the exact same setup and it passed BTB fine.

Thanks for your help.

HI Guys:

Can someone point me to where to get the firmware? I e-mailed Denon twice, no reply. Do they have an FTP site? Is it buried in this lengthy thread anywhere?

Thanks,
Scott

VladDracul, the 3910 definitely passes blacker than black. One problem could be that the player tends to reset the black level to Enhanced eventhough it says Normal in the menu (it happens whenever you turn squeeze mode to "on" or change the resolution). Try turning it on, inserting the DVE DVD, make sure the resolution is 720p through DVI (the native resolution of your DLP), and make sure the squeeze mode is the way you want it (on or off), then go into the main menu and click on Normal black level (even if Normal is already highlighted), then try adjusting the black levels with DVE.

Scottorton, you can download the latest firmware from the Denon.com website (see Upgrades).

Originally posted by scotthorton
HI Guys:

Can someone point me to where to get the firmware? I e-mailed Denon twice, no reply. Do they have an FTP site? Is it buried in this lengthy thread anywhere?

Thanks,
Scott


Scott,

As stated previously, Denon is coming out with a -8 firmware (current is -6) in the coming week. Why not wait a few days so you don't throw away a CD-R burning current firmware which will be outdated shortly?

Food for thought...

I cancelled my 3910 order!! as it is not compatable with new sacd 2.0

Originally posted by BillP
VladDracul, the 3910 definitely passes blacker than black. One problem could be that the player tends to reset the black level to Enhanced eventhough it says Normal in the menu (it happens whenever you turn squeeze mode to "on" or change the resolution). Try turning it on, inserting the DVE DVD, make sure the resolution is 720p through DVI (the native resolution of your DLP), and make sure the squeeze mode is the way you want it (on or off), then go into the main menu and click on Normal black level (even if Normal is already highlighted), then try adjusting the black levels with DVE.

Scottorton, you can download the latest firmware from the Denon.com website (see Upgrades).

BillP,

Yes, I was aware of that issue and took care of always selecting "Normal" prior to looking at the pattern. I tried again, this time testing 1080i and 540P, with no luck. I'm still unable to see BTB no matter how much I turn up the brightness control on the TV. Could this be a manufacturing defect? If it weren't for the fact that my previous 2910 worked fine in this regard, I would suspect the cable; but in this instance, I'm totally lost.

Originally posted by Rieper
Scott,

As stated previously, Denon is coming out with a -8 firmware (current is -6) in the coming week. Why not wait a few days so you don't throw away a CD-R burning current firmware which will be outdated shortly?

Food for thought... Yes, I agree, waiting on the new one is fine. But, *where* do I get it when it is avail? Thanks, Scott

Originally posted by scotthorton
Yes, I agree, waiting on the new one is fine. But, *where* do I get it when it is avail? Thanks, Scott

Do you *really* have to ask that question? THE DENON WEBSITE. Sheesh ... :rolleyes:

Just to cover all options, have you tried setting your DVI black level to "enhanced" and see what happens?

I don't have a DVI-equipped TV, but it seems to me that you'd want the 3910's black level to be blacker than normal if you wanted to see that black bar in the pluge test (unless I'm misunderstanding something).

I guess all I'm saying is: experiment - you can't break anything.

Good luck.

--Ernie

Originally posted by scotthorton
HI Guys:

Can someone point me to where to get the firmware? I e-mailed Denon twice, no reply. Do they have an FTP site? Is it buried in this lengthy thread anywhere?

Thanks,
Scott

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

Originally posted by zoro
I cancelled my 3910 order!! as it is not compatible with new sacd 2.0 SACD 2.0 is a new specification, not a new format. ,Do you actually believe Sony/Phillips would put out a new format and abandon all the current SACD players on the market?

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
SACD 2.0 is a new specification, not a new format. ,Do you actually believe Sony/Phillips would put out a new format and abandon all the current SACD players on the market?

Common sense would say no. Being that "products" with this specification have been indicated to be available on the market in 1 to 2yrs would seem to say that there is a difference in this spec, among them, being image transfer and more robust CP. These "products" will probably play legacy SACD material but not the other way around.

Being that SACD 2.0 has approved HDMI and Denon Link 3 as transport methods, and that current Denon Link CDPs are Denon Link 2 and SACD 1.3 has still not been approved for any method of transport other than IEEE1394 would seem to indicate that there must be a hardware requirement difference in the two specs with regards to the transmitting unit(CDP). Otherwise, since to upgrade current Denon CDPs to Denon Link 3 only requires a FW load, why wasn't Denon Link 3 added as a transport method for SACD 1.3?

Looking at the bigger picture, since this SACD 2.0 is not going to be a factor for another 1-2yrs, I wouldn't worry about it with regards to current players, meaning Denon Link 2 will probably never be upgraded to transport SACD.

My guess is that SACD 2.0 might possibly be a transport spec for future HD-DVD and BRD players.

If you like the 3910, buy it, and playback SACD like every Denon owner has who doesn't have a IEEE1394 enabled rec/pre-pro, through the analog outputs.

and if I may say so, the 3910 SACD-audio thru analog cables is quite awesome!!

Exactly! :)

IMO, if you are in the market for a 3910, don't get hung-up on the DL2-3/SACD thing.

Well, Keenan, all I can say is that the 3910 playing SACD thru analog is the best audio I have heard to date.....bar none!

Originally posted by mismatched
and if I may say so, the 3910 SACD-audio thru analog cables is quite awesome!!

You may,
;)

It is quite awsome isn't it? :D

Kinda off-topic, but:

Can anyone recommend a few (3 or 4) SACDs which they feel sound "awesome" through 3910's analog outputs? I was going to buy the Norah Jones SACD before reading they used the 16/44.1 PCM master to make the SACD.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Rieper.....
Can anyone recommend a few (3 or 4) SACDs which they feel sound "awesome" through 3910's analog outputs?

My "easy on ears" recommendations:

1. Al Dimeola: Elegant Gypsy (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=771152)

2. Stereo track of Masanori Sasaji: Birdland (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=877459)

3. Lara St. John: Gypsy (http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=15158)

4. John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman (http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=15008)

5. Artur Pizarro: Beethoven: Piano Sonatas (http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=14477)

6. Concord Jazz Super Audio CD Sampler I (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000BWVCO/qid=1107094058/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl15/103-1966486-0451831?v=glance&s=music&n=507846) Tracks 4 and 2 are excellent for multichannel demo.

The new Elton John SACD hybrids are outstanding as well.

Cancelling your order for what is primarily a DVD player... just because it won't play SACD's? *shakes head at people*

It's like cancelling your cell phone, because it doesn't have Snake Game on it, but yet it has the greatest phone reception ever.

*sighs* you people make me cry on the inside.

It does play SACD, and it does so with outstanding audio quality over analog cables, so not a big deal.

I highly recommend Beck's "Sea Change."

This was recommended as a reference disc in the most recent Secret's 3910 evaluation. I had no idea what to expect, but I loved it from the first few moments.

Amazing clarity of sound and instrumentation and sound effects. I would say the singing is so-so, but the music more than makes up for it. It's slow and "ballad"-like, which is the type of stuff I like.

--Ernie

Originally posted by Rieper
Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Avalon--Roxy Music
DSOTM--Pink Floyd
Rage Hard(The Sonic Collection)--Frankie Goes To Hollywood
Romantic Warrior--Return To Forever
The Downward Spiral--Nine Inch Nails

For classical try some of the RCA Living Stereo releases, many are 3ch and sound spectacular.

For fun, Dr. Chesky's Magnificent, Fabulous, Absurd and Insane Musical 5.1 Surround Show.

There's a lot of good SACD material out there. You might want to check the Surround Music Forum

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=112
Surround Music Formats - AVS Forum

The Telarc SACD of the 1812 Overture. The digital cannons can damage your speakers if you're not careful.

And Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon - Money.

Ditto to "Sea Change" and "Avalon". Bucky Pizzarelli's "Swing" (not sure of exact title nam)is amazing if your in the mood for a live club sound that jumps and jives.

Has the hugely irritating bug of the player reseting to enhanced black when it´s turned off been remedied by the latest firmware??

Originally posted by ErnieW
Just to cover all options, have you tried setting your DVI black level to "enhanced" and see what happens?

I don't have a DVI-equipped TV, but it seems to me that you'd want the 3910's black level to be blacker than normal if you wanted to see that black bar in the pluge test (unless I'm misunderstanding something).

I guess all I'm saying is: experiment - you can't break anything.

Good luck.

--Ernie

ErnieW,

Yes, I have tried that and it still doesn't work. I don't know what to think... I'm starting to believe I have a defective player. Does anyone know what the new firmware is going to address? I'll continue tinkering with the player until I install the new firmware. If it doesn't work then, I'll have to return it and start looking at other options. It really is too bad because I still love this player.

You could exchange it for another 3910 if you think it's defective.

I was just playing with a multi-layer (hybrid) SACD for the first time, and noticed something odd. When trying to switch between CD, Stereo & Multi while playing, it appears to accept the change, even starting the cycle from the last one chosen, but doesn't actually change layers. You have to do this while the disk is stopped fgor it to actually change.

Pardon me if this has been covered before.

I have the same, thing.
The player needs to be stopped in order to do the SACD layer change. If you do the change while playing, it just 'stores' the setting untill the next time the player is stopped, it then will apply the change.
The same goes for changing from Auto 1 to Auto 2, Video 1 etc.
in progressive video mode.

I think this is how it is meant to be, there is nothing wrong with your unit :)


Cheers
KJ

Krazykaj....
I think this is how it is meant to be, there is nothing wrong with you unit

The player's behavior is correct (and logical in my view).

8-1 instruction sheet says it corrects for black level and range in normal mode and updates hdmi to 1.1

I just bought a 3910 and am experiencing problems reading DVD's. Virtually every disk needs to be inserted several times before they start-up, even if brand new. Is it just unusually fickle or is it defective? What is your experience?

Ian

jeffrow,
Whoa! That HDMI upgrade is interesting! So they've updated HDMI on the 3910 to carry ful res, multi-channel DVD-Audio digital audio? That's the first I've heard of anyone upgrading a player from HDMI 1.0 to 1.1. And with just a firmware change!
--Bob

Ian B;

This sounds rather dodgy to me; I’d immediately take it back and get a replacement. I personally wouldn’t even waste my time exploring any possibilities if it is not reading the disks you put in.
I am assuming that all the disks you have are commercial CD’s, DVD’s etc. bought from a store, and not home made jobs or anything?
So unless you have lots of faulty, scratched, warped disks, (which can be easily tested if you have another DVD player in the house, just see if they play on the other player) then it means you have a faulty player.

Cheers
KJ

Speaking of Elton John...

Not sure if this has been discussed previously or not, but my 3910 will not play the bonus tracks on Elton John's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road DVD-A. When I select the "bonus tracks" option, I am returned to the main menu. Anybody else experience this problem? I am using the latest firmware (-6, I believe).

Thanks.

Firmware -8 is out now. I will post my results tonight when I get home.

Originally posted by Krazykaj
I have the same, thing.
The player needs to be stopped in order to do the SACD layer change. If you do the change while playing, it just 'stores' the setting untill the next time the player is stopped, it then will apply the change.
The same goes for changing from Auto 1 to Auto 2, Video 1 etc.
in progressive video mode.

I think this is how it is meant to be, there is nothing wrong with your unit :)


Cheers
KJ Is this true for the progressive modes? Can anyone confirm this?

The new firmware fixed the normal/enhanced black level bug.

My player still is unable to pass BTB, however.

Vlad,
Sometimes the problem with BTB is actually at the TV end.

Try your player with a different model of TV, perhaps at a friend's house or in a store and see if you can get BTB that way. If so, you may need to make some setting change in your TV.

For example, when passing an analog video signal to some TVs one voltage setting for Black Setup (0 IRE vs 7.5 IRE) may cause the *TV* to clip BTB when the other one works -- even though the player is doing the right thing both times. Now that's fixed by changing the setting in the player of course, but there are also TV side settings that may cause some TVs to clip BTB. There's a set of tweaks out there for Sony Grand Wega TVs for example, that, if not done carefully, can put the TV in a state where it clips BTB that's actually coming in properly from the player.

Anyway, if you can get BTB from the player when using a different TV then you'll at least know the problem for your setup is with your TV.
--Bob

Hi VladDracul

It is a little weird that you are the only person to post that your player does not pass BTB at this point? :confused:
How are you connected to the TV? (Duoh! by DVI as in your earlier post)
You must calibrate for each black setting so you can not just swap between them and expect it to pass without a calibration.
Does it pass BTB on another DVI tv?
If you are doing all of these things I would contact Denon.
Hopefully they will be able to assist.

J

Originally posted by J SLAYZ
Hi VladDracul

It is a little weird that you are the only person to post that your player does not pass BTB at this point? :confused:
How are you connected to the TV? (Duoh! by DVI as in your earlier post)
You must calibrate for each black setting so you can not just swap between them and expect it to pass without a calibration.
Does it pass BTB on another DVI tv?
If you are doing all of these things I would contact Denon.
Hopefully they will be able to assist.

J My player also won't pass BTB to a Sony XBR 36". Other players have done it, so it's NOT the TV. I have tried every choice (Enhanced, regular, etc) & it will NOT do it! I am connected via component.

Originally posted by Larry Geller
Is this true for the progressive modes? Can anyone confirm this?

I'll double check this for you tonight (your early morning :)) and let you know exactly what i find.
But i am quite sure that the video source needs to be stopped, and then started again for any changes to the progressive mode you made to take effect.
So say you are playing a DVD, with Auto 1 set, if you go to the front of the 3910 and change the video setting to Auto 2, nothing will really happen, the picture will still look the same. And if you go back to the DVD setup menu, i think it still should be set on Auto 1? (not 100% sure about this, will check this later on) and even if you change it in the setup menu, you still need to fully stop the player before the Auto 2 setting will take effect.
It would make sense to me that this is how it would work, but i have been known to be wrong :)
someone else may also be able to confirm/correct this.

Cheers
KJ

Originally posted by Krazykaj
And if you go back to the DVD setup menu, i think it still should be set on Auto 1? (not 100% sure about this, will check this later on) When you go back, it has changed to the new setting. If what you say is true, it really blows, because most DVDs with extras have some extras on film & some on video. That means you would have to stop the player each time you go to a new title on the disc!

Thanks for your responses guys.

Bob,

The problem is that I had tested this same TV (Samsung HLP4674) with a 2910 and I could get BTB with no problems. Also, the other TV in the house only has a component input, so this test would not tell me anything about BTB over the DVI connection which I'm currently using.

J SLAYZ,

I'm a little unsure as to what you mean by this: "You must calibrate for each black setting so you can not just swap between them and expect it to pass without a calibration."

I've turned up the brightness control in my tv all the way up with both black settings and I still don't see the BTB bars in the DVE pattern. Is this what you mean?

Originally posted by Larry Geller
When you go back, it has changed to the new setting. If what you say is true, it really blows, because most DVDs with extras have some extras on film & some on video. That means you would have to stop the player each time you go to a new title on the disc!

As i said, don't quote me just yet :) i'll check it out a bit more later on. I advise you do a bit of testing as well, so you aren't taking my word on it.
I may well be wrong here, i just assumed that this is the way it would work, and i don't remeber, when last playing around with the progressive modes, seeing any difference whilst changing the settings and still playing the video.
I thought it was the same as how SACD works, you can change the setting all you like from Multi, to CD to Stereo, and it will even stay on the setting you choose while the SACD is playing, but untill the actual SACD is stopped and resarted, nothing takes effect or changes.

but i see your point, it is a bit of a pain to have to stop the DVD and change a video setting, then start it again. That is however what i have been doing, (though usually i don't bother, as i see little differences in the modes to justify the time/effort, i just leave it on Auto 2), but now that someone has actually questioned it, i'm not to sure.
Let's hope i am wrong and the 3910 is a tad more able than i am :).

cheers
KJ

Ok, so I think I have VLads problem as well. When I have 7.5 IRE i see all of the black bars. When 0 is set i see nothing no matter how bright the tv is. But. when i put brightness on the DVD up i can see the black bar. Brightness has to be at around +8 or so. Not sure what that means

Hi Vlad

If you have turned up the brightness all the way and still dont see the BTB information on any of the settings then it appears that at some point the info is being lost.
I believe the settings to use are 'normal' and IRE7.5 for most displays.
You really need to hook that player up to another display with a DVI input to see if it is the player.
Certainly appears that way at the moment as you have seen BTB on the TV previously!
Please post when you have tested on another dsiplay and let us all know how you go.
One other test, any chance of getting another 3910 to try?

J

At this point, the only thing I can do is see if there is anything I inadvertently did to the TV to make it clip blacks. If I can't find anything, I'm going to ask for an exchange; which I really don't want to do as my dealer has been very leniant and I wouldn't want to abuse of his helpfulness.

Did you try putting the brightness up all the way on the DVD player itself?

J SLAYZ, I believe the correct settings are Normal and 0 IRE for most displays (or at least for DLPs).

Hi BillP

Apparently 0 or 7.5 can be correct as long as the DVI/HDMI is set to normal.
Just calibrate your display to suit, we are both right!! :)

As posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4439294#post4439294)

J

Well, can someone tell me what the heck is wrong here :(

I just installed the latest firmware ( -8 ), and now the "enhanced" black level does not work!! I usually have it in Normal anyway, while adjusting the IRE, but I still want to have the ability to have the "enhanced" black level available.

anyone see this??

no and never will because I will never use enhanced black!! :)

Originally posted by ssabripo
Well, can someone tell me what the heck is wrong here :(

I just installed the latest firmware ( -8 ), and now the "enhanced" black level does not work!! I usually have it in Normal anyway, while adjusting the IRE, but I still want to have the ability to have the "enhanced" black level available.

anyone see this??



Is it region free? Firmware -8 that is...

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
Did you try putting the brightness up all the way on the DVD player itself?

Hi maxvengeance111,

Yes, I tried that too. It doesn't work either.

Originally posted by Rieper
Is it region free? Firmware -8 that is...

Nope, at least, not the -8 from Denon directly. I've made inquiries with Denon and they're being rather... lackadasical about it.

can someone please verify that the "enhanced" mode still works on their -8 upgrade..... mine is no longer working.

I may have to revert back to -6 :mad:

Greetings,

ssabripo, I installed - 8 on my 3910 this morning. I plan on running through some test patterns etc. to see if there are any differences to the black level via DVI on my unit. I will post back and advise regarding the Enhanced mode.


Regards,

Originally posted by placidman
Greetings,

ssabripo, I installed - 8 on my 3910 this morning. I plan on running through some test patterns etc. to see if there are any differences to the black level via DVI on my unit. I will post back and advise regarding the Enhanced mode.


Regards,

thanks!

if you get a chance, just switch between the two, and tell me if you see a difference....I used to with -6 and earlier, but not with this one:confused:

Originally posted by placidman
Greetings,

ssabripo, I installed - 8 on my 3910 this morning. I plan on running through some test patterns etc. to see if there are any differences to the black level via DVI on my unit. I will post back and advise regarding the Enhanced mode.


Regards,


Can you check and see if SACD is outputting via Denon Link with the -8 firmware? I'm assuming you have the DVR-3805...

Thanks.

Originally posted by Rieper
Can you check and see if SACD is outputting via Denon Link with the -8 firmware? I'm assuming you have the DVR-3805...

Thanks.

It won't. The SACD 2.0 spec, which is what Denon was approved for, isnt' out yet.

However, there's now DVD-A via HDMI support in -8.

I may have found a MR -8 firmware solution, apparantly all the australian and singapore firmware's are region-free as standard. I've just tried downloading the latest -8 firmware from denon usa, http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp and the version that downloaded was region 2 only (I presumed it would be region 1 only, but obviously by entering the serial number it realises which region it is)...therefore if someone from these regions can download the firmware from the denon USA site by entering there serial number they may well get a region free latest firmware that everyone can use!

If someone from these regions can try, that'd be great!

M

Originally posted by mark antony
I've just tried downloading the latest -8 firmware from denon usa, http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp and the version that downloaded was region 2 only (I presumed it would be region 1 only, but obviously by entering the serial number it realises which region it is)...
If someone from these regions can try, that'd be great!

M

I will try for you but what I found last time was that it was dependant on what you put for 'country' that determined the region. There were only three choices, (USA, Mexico or South America). Putting USA meant you got region 1 and the others gave you Region 4 but locked to Region 4.

Not sure how you ended up with R2?

If you PM your email address to me I will download it and send it to you to try, but which of those three countries do you want me to put in? Which did you put to get R2, and where are you located? Are you in Region 2?

Bill

I put in USA, state of texas!

Sending you a PM...

M

Ok guys, after reading many of these pages here it is obvious that the 3910 is superior to the 2910 as far as audio goes. I bought a 2910 almost 4 months ago at Tweeter. They will give me a full refund on the 2910 and charge me $650 to swap for the 3910. $1,299 for the 3910 less the $649 I paid for the 2910. Does this sound like a reasonable deal?

Thanks.

jazzcat,

$1299 is full retail, but if you consider the customer service and factory warrantee you are getting its not that bad :)

After all, not a few units are turning up with defects, and the sweetness of a $950 3910 found on the internet would soon fade if you had to ship it to Denon to get it repaired - at your cost.

DigiPete

Originally posted by DigiPete
jazzcat,

$1299 is full retail, but if you consider the customer service and factory warrantee you are getting its not that bad :)
DigiPete

It's a better deal than that since the MSRP as of Jan 1, 2005 is now $1499

Hi DigiPete, actually the official Denon list price is now $1,499 and what Crutchfield is charging. He honored the original retail price of $1,299. Other etailers offer it for $950 - $1,100 but no warranty. Sounds like all things considered, it might be worth it.

keenan, you jumped in while I was typing. I have till the 17th of this month to decide.

Anyone else having that problem with enhanced black after upgrading to -8?

Greetings,


Anyone else having that problem with enhanced black after upgrading to -8?

I checked my 3910 via DVI after installation of the - 8 firmware and mine is fine. I could be wrong but maybe the problem that ssabripo is having is related to the fact that he installed the - 8 firmware without having installed the - 7 ( this is only a guess ).

At any rate, there is appears to be no discernible difference to black level via DVI on my system. I confirmed this using DVE and Avia. I will watch a few discs and see if I notice any differences there.


Regards,

The firmware went from -6 right to -8, skipping -7, so that doesnt make sense

Originally posted by maxvengeance111
The firmware went from -6 right to -8, skipping -7, so that doesnt make sense

Right. While -7 was released in some territories, in the US, Denon skipped -7 entirely and released -8. The pack for -8 should include all updates in the prior firmwares. Which is only logical, because otherwise someone who bought a unitl which was a few firmwares out of date (mine came with -2 in January, and they were already up to -6 by then), the person would have to track down each firmware in order to update... and Denon only makes the latest version available!

Greetings,



I think the reason for this is not so much that Denon skipped a firmware version but that it looks like the - 7 status went to the 2910 upgrade ( ESS-6720-7 ). The 2910 last firmware upgrade was Ess-6720-5. After that the 3910's last upgrade was Ess-6609-6.

I guess my theory regarding ssabrio missing an upgrade won't hold water. Maybe he should try reinstalling the firmware.


Regards,

Originally posted by placidman
I think the reason for this is not so much that Denon skipped a firmware version but that it looks like the - 7 status went to the 2910 upgrade ( ESS-6720-7 ). The 2910 last firmware upgrade was Ess-6720-5. After that the 3910's last upgrade was Ess-6609-6.
From reading on other forums, the -7 release is a multiregion version (for 3910), which is being installed directly by Denon (via engineer house calls!) in AsiaPac region.

Originally posted by awhb
From reading on other forums, the -7 release is a multiregion version (for 3910), which is being installed directly by Denon (via engineer house calls!) in AsiaPac region.


I think that pretty much ends the new multi-region firmware discussion :)

For now...

CAN ANYONE PLEASE confirm if the "enhanced" black mode still works in -8

Originally posted by ssabripo
CAN ANYONE PLEASE confirm if the "enhanced" black mode still works in -8

I believe Kris Deering (Secret's) once posted that Enhanced should never be used anyway, so it's not a big deal. I plan on downloading V. 8 tomorrow, and will let you know.

CAN ANYONE PLEASE confirm if the "enhanced" black mode still works in -8

I too, after updating to the -8 firmware see no difference between normal & enhanced black level. I can switch to either one, but unlike previous versions of firmware it does not change black level in any way.[

ssabripo and bigalbklyn, my 3910's enhanced black mode works fine. What connection are you using? DVI, HDMI, or component?

I have just tried the new firmware: ESS-6609-8
and for me it is thumbs down. I am using with component out with a GWIII Sony TV and the new firmware does seem to pass the anamorphic signal switch from 4:3 to 16:9. My TV think that it is getting a 4:3 signal and I have to manually switch it.

Originally posted by ssabripo
CAN ANYONE PLEASE confirm if the "enhanced" black mode still works in -8

Greetings,

As I stated above in an earlier response, my enhanced mode works fine after installing - 8.


Regards,

My enhanced mode was fine too after -8, did you follow the instructions and initialise the player after installing, if not sometimes it screws up some of the functions.

M

Qoute by d-nice:

ssabripo and bigalbklyn, my 3910's enhanced black mode works fine. What connection are you using? DVI, HDMI, or component?

I'm using HDMI, and I initialised the player after the firmware update.


I'm leaving town for a few days, when I return I'll go back to version -6, check to see that switching actually changes my black level and then reload -8 and see what happens.

I will let everyone know how it goes.

BigAl

I updated to *-8 firmware; re-initialization is not needed for updating the firmware (initialization will simply reset your settings to factory default ones). I verifed after upgrading that the installed firmware was indeed *-8.

Since my TV doesn't accept progressive signals, I can not check if the Enhanced black is fine (I can't do it even for the sake of testing because if I opt for progressive in order to access Enhanced black related options, I can't even view menu on my TV since it won't accept progressive input). Sorry ssabripo...

HDMI black settings still not working....I will reinstall it and see what happens....
:mad:

ssabripo and bigalbklyn, if you are using HDMI make sure you have it set to HDMI rgb. That is the only HDMI setting that will allow you to use enhanced black.

Originally posted by jigesh
...re-initialization is not needed for updating the firmware (initialization will simply reset your settings to factory default ones)...
Then why do the instructions say to re-initialize the player? :confused: I think it makes sense to have to re-initialize the player when installing new firmware, but maybe I'm missing something. It's kind of like restarting your computer after loading new software/hardware...but don't get too carried away with the bad analogy. :)

BTW, I loaded -8 last night, but haven't had a chance to check the results yet.

Jason

Originally posted by D-Nice
ssabripo and bigalbklyn, if you are using HDMI make sure you have it set to HDMI rgb. That is the only HDMI setting that will allow you to use enhanced black.

Ta-da!

D-Nice is right, and I didn't even realize it until he said it. I was using HDMI RGB the other day and everything got darker, and I couldn't figure out why. Enhanced blacks are only available in RGB mode.

Good catch.

Jason......
Then why do the instructions say to re-initialize the player?

Instructions don't say to re-initialize. Instructions for firmware update end with Step 2.

Here's how I understood their PDF instruction sheet: Step 1 is for creating CD, Step 2 is for updating firmware, Step 3 is for verifying firmware version and the Step 4 is for initializing the player. Firmware update is only Step 2. The rest of the steps one uses as needed.

There's no harm though in following up all four steps except you need to re-enter your settings.

Originally posted by D-Nice
ssabripo and bigalbklyn, if you are using HDMI make sure you have it set to HDMI rgb. That is the only HDMI setting that will allow you to use enhanced black.


REALLY?!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

dammit....I gotta try that... I use Yb Cy Rb usually, not RGB....if this is the problem, I have 3 words:

D-nice is da man :D

Re the firmware initalisation I was told by Denon themselves that a lot of people that had faults with machine functions after installing new firmware themselves were purely down to the fact that they hadn't initialised it afterwards, but up to you!

Re the enhanced black, don't forget the lengthy threads on colorspace issues that basically said hdmi rgb as opposed to YbCyRb may give you a green "push" or deficit as well as enhanced black! BTW I checked last night and it works on dvi too!

M

Questions on the Denon DVD-3910

First I have the Denon 3805.
Second I have the Denon 3910 on order

1. Can the unit output from the denon Link and Digital Coax at the same time?
2. I hear the DAC's in the unit are better then the 3805, can someone confirm?
3. How is the unit as a transport only?


So in the end this is what I want to accomplish.

Denon 2 Channel anolog out to Denon 3805 for SACD stereo
Denon Digital Link for DVD-A and SACD Multichannel
Denon DIgital Coax to my Benchmark Media DAC1 for 2 Channel DVD-A

Is it possible?

Originally posted by SOWK
Questions on the Denon DVD-3910

First I have the Denon 3805.
Second I have the Denon 3910 on order

1. Can the unit output from the denon Link and Digital Coax at the same time?
2. I hear the DAC's in the unit are better then the 3805, can someone confirm?
3. How is the unit as a transport only?


So in the end this is what I want to accomplish.

Denon 2 Channel anolog out to Denon 3805 for SACD stereo
Denon Digital Link for DVD-A and SACD Multichannel
Denon DIgital Coax to my Benchmark Media DAC1 for 2 Channel DVD-A

Is it possible?

1. Not sure, I don't use the Denon Link.

2. Definitely better in the 3910. Which is why I don't use the Denon Link!

3. It is a 'transport only' only if you use the digital coax/optical outs or the denon link. You're not taking advantage of the main plus of the 3910 over it's younger siblings - it's DACs.

You can certainly do Denon 2 Channel analog out to 3805 for SACD stereo.

You Can use the Denon Link for DVD-A, BUT NOT for SACD. While Denon got approval for SACD 2.0 via Denon Link, 2.0 is not yet available, and we don't know when - or how - it will be. You MUST use analog outputs for SACD. And frankly, given the superior DACs on the 3910, I'd suggest just using the 5.1 analog outs for both multichannel SACD and DVD-A.

If you think your Benchmark media DAC1 has better DACs than the 3910 (very well might), you can definitely use the coax out for DVD-A.

Originally posted by JasonColeman
.... It's kind of like restarting your computer after loading new software/hardware...but don't get too carried away with the bad analogy. :)

Jason

yes bad analogy at least for a Mac. You don't reinitialize your HD after installing updates or new software! That would erase everything. I think it is worth a check with a Denon service guy to see if this reinitialization is necessary. One can certainly write down their settings before the firmware install and reinitialization if indeed the latter is actually necessary....

PS Just noticed the post by one Mark Anthony above. Definitely will give Denon a holler. If reinit it must be then reinit it will be...

mismatched

SOWK

I concur with Engine Joe

m

Well, I am pretty sure the Benchmark DAC 1 is better, as it just got Seterophile Product of the Year!

But it is only a 2 channel DAC, so based on that would I be able to use both the Digital coax, and denon Link at the same time

Digital Coax for 2 channel DVD-A to my DAC 1
And Denon Link for Multichannel DVD-A


BTY, Thanks for the quick responce!!! You guys are great!

Originally posted by SOWK

Digital Coax for 2 channel DVD-A to my DAC 1


Do you mean for Redbook CD to the DAC-1? AFAIK, all DVD-A is 5.1. Also, when you say digital coax are you referring to the optical/coaxial SPDIF jack or the analog RCA outputs? DVD-A will not travel through the SPDIF connection.

Originally posted by SOWK
Questions on the Denon DVD-3910


So in the end this is what I want to accomplish.

Denon 2 Channel anolog out to Denon 3805 for SACD stereo
Denon Digital Link for DVD-A and SACD Multichannel
Denon DIgital Coax to my Benchmark Media DAC1 for 2 Channel DVD-A

Is it possible?


SOWK,

I do not think you can send DVD-A over digital coax, since this is not an encrypted connection. Also, I think digital coax(or toslink optical) have bandwithdth limits of up to 96/24 for LPCM stereo, and less resolution for multichannel.

DigiPete

Originally posted by DigiPete
SOWK,

I do not think you can send DVD-A over digital coax, since this is not an encrypted connection. Also, I think digital coax(or toslink optical) have bandwithdth limits of up to 96/24 for LPCM stereo, and less resolution for multichannel.

DigiPete

Ahh... if the disc has no copy protection, you can get up to 96khz/24bit 2ch out through the regular digital coax/optical. But multichannel will be down mixed to 2 channels, unless downmixing is prohibited at which point you will only get the left/right channels of the original 5.1 mix sent out.

If copy potection is on, then you can get 2 channel at 48khz/16 bit, and I don't know what happens if the track was a 5.1...

Most DVD-A's are copy protected, but Santana Supernatural is not :)

Cheers
Pete

Another Question, then why do they make 192khz Seperate Dac's? AKA the Benchmark DAC-1. If you can't send a digital 192kHz signal?

and if so how, and what digital ouput connector?

Originally posted by SOWK
Another Question, then why do they make 192khz Seperate Dac's? AKA the Benchmark DAC-1. If you can't send a digital 192kHz signal?

and if so how, and what digital ouput connector?

SOWK,

From what I understand, the Denon 3910 and probably any commercial DVD player cannot send a 192khz/24 bit 2ch stream from the coax/optical ports, as this port does not have the bandwidth to send that high of a bit rate (my digital math is probably wrong, but I think that is 2*192*1024*24=9.4mbps).

The Denon 3910 does send 192/24 2ch over Denon Link as does IEEE1394.

I don't know what other connectors will do the job for you.

DigiPete

But 192kHz DAC dont use denons digital link, or IEEE 1394.

They have coaxial, and BNC connectors.

Im confused!!!

Originally posted by SOWK
But 192kHz DAC dont use denons digital link, or IEEE 1394.

They have coaxial, and BNC connectors.

Im confused!!!

Don't know what to tell you?

The 3910 will only produce 192khz from the Denon Link or the i.Link(IEEE 1394), or you can use the analog outputs.

Originally posted by SOWK
But 192kHz DAC dont use denons digital link, or IEEE 1394.

They have coaxial, and BNC connectors.

Im confused!!!

You taking about the Benchmark DAC? And what BNC connectors are you talking about? Those are generally used for video.

Or you can do something like this,

http://www.dvdupgrades.ch/150019/Modification/SPDIF/Output/Six_channel_S_P_DIF_output_board.html
dvdupgrades® -- Modification : SPDIF : Six channel S/P-DIF output board

go to www.benchmarkmedia.com

The Benchmark DAC1 is stereophiles Product of the year.

It is a 2 Channel 192kHz Audio DAC, nothing to do with video!

It aceppts, optical,coaxial,and a bnc coax connect!

There has to some product out there that outputs 192khz thru coax?

Originally posted by mark antony
Re the firmware initalisation I was told by Denon themselves that a lot of people that had faults with machine functions after installing new firmware themselves were purely down to the fact that they hadn't initialised it afterwards, but up to you!The written instructions Denon sends out with the updated firmware stops at Step 2 of the PDF.

Exactly. The last statement of Step 2 (above Notes) is: "Turn the player on with the "On/Off" button and start using it. Upgrade complete."

If they wanted users to do re-initialization, they should have mentioned here instead of saying "..start using it." I upgraded to *-5, *-6 and *-8 the same way (without re-initialization) with no problem. However, as I said earlier, there's no harm in doing re-initialization.

just recevied my 3910 and awaiting the -8 upgrade CD from Denon. I am a MAC guy and could not download the firmware from their site. Anyway will it be obvious how to re-initialize after installing the firmware update??? Remember I am a MAC guy!! :) :)

PS I have an email into Denon re: whether to reinit or not...

This is a rather long thread and difficult to find a direct answer to my question. Thus, I would like some help from those DVD-3910 owners who have their DVD players connected to a HD Plasma via DVI or HDMI inputs. In the Secrets review of this DVD player, there was no Macroblocking when upconverting to 720p. I am very interested in knowing if this is true when connecting the DVD-3910 to an HD PDP with the conditions above. My PDP is a Fujitsu P50(Series 30).

Thanks for your help in advance and feel free to PM if you wish.

Dave

Re the re-initialisation, I'm just repeating what Denon Uk said to me, in an attempt to prevent people from having problems with their 3910.

If you don't want to do that with your unit, it really doesn't bother me, I'm just passing the info on!

Next topic!

M

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does the new firmware leave the region free status on the player (i have firmware -5 now ) ??? Was the -6 firmware region free ??

Originally posted by Nomzamo
I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does the new firmware leave the region free status on the player (i have firmware -5 now ) ???

Nope. If you are installing a non region free firmware the player defaults to the original region setting as printed on the rear panel.

Hi

No...any subsequent firmware you put on will remove MR. The last MR version was -5. I am led to believe that they are working on a -8 MR in the UK.

B.

CONFIRMED!

the HDMI "Enhanced" black mode works only on HDMI RGB (not Yp Cb R)....don't know why, but I thought it used to work on all settings...oh well.

I'm thinking about picking up the 3910 when my tax refund comes in. I will be connecting it to a Denon 5803 receiver. Anyone know if the DACs in my receiver are any better than the ones in the 3910? Would I be able to use the DenonLink to my receiver - which is version 1 if I remember correctly?


Ken

The best answer is to try it both ways, analog (using the 3910's DACs) and digital (using the 5803's DACs) to see which you prefer with your own equipment.

Originally posted by keenan
You taking about the Benchmark DAC? And what BNC connectors are you talking about? Those are generally used for video.

Or you can do something like this,

http://www.dvdupgrades.ch/150019/Modification/SPDIF/Output/Six_channel_S_P_DIF_output_board.html
dvdupgrades® -- Modification : SPDIF : Six channel S/P-DIF output board

The Benchmark DAC1 has no video connectors. It has Toslink, XLR, and coax input connectors. The coax connector is a BNC.

Originally posted by BillP
The best answer is to try it both ways, analog (using the 3910's DACs) and digital (using the 5803's DACs) to see which you prefer with your own equipment.

I realize that, and that's what I intend to do. I was just wondering as far as specs go which unit has the better DACs and if the two different versions of DenonLink were compatible.


Ken

Originally posted by Steve Goff
The Benchmark DAC1 has no video connectors. It has Toslink, XLR, and coax input connectors. The coax connector is a BNC.
Yes, I saw that, my remark was they are more common on video equipment than consumer audio equipment. I stand corrected. :)

As far as I can tell the Benchmark works only with the SPDIF output using one of the above mentioned connectors. IIRC, that output will only go up to 24/96.

So for SOWK to get a 24/192 stream he would need to go with a transport or a modified player, no?

Originally posted by K_Thompson
I realize that, and that's what I intend to do. I was just wondering as far as specs go which unit has the better DACs and if the two different versions of DenonLink were compatible.


Ken

If you have the numbers on the DACs you can compare then at the TI site, although DACs alone, do not a good sounding player make...

http://focus-webapps.ti.com/paramsearch/docs/parametricsearch.tsp?startIdx=51&endIdx=60&familyId=582&totalCount=68&showAdditionalParameters=no&lc=3000166&lc=3000195&lc=2000084&lc=2300088&lc=2000305&lc=2200348&lc=2000089&lc=2000494&lc=2001130&compare=yes&download=yes&sort=yes&customize=yes&paramResults=yes&paramCriteria=yes&familyTree=yes&military=no&baSystem=yes&paramTable=yes&sortOption=&sortMode=&searchPaths=1000582&pageId=582&startIdx=51&endIdx=60&templateId=5275&navigationId=0&family=analog&paramTable=yes&military=no&ul=PCM1748&ul=PCM1753&ul=PCM1754&ul=PCM1755&ul=PCM1770&ul=PCM1771&ul=PCM1772&ul=PCM1773&ul=PCM1781&ul=PCM1782&#rt
Audio D to A Converters: Parametric Table

I finally installed the V.8 firmware upgrade and can confirm that it fixes the bug that reset Normal black level to Enhanced whenever I turned on squeeze mode to watch a 4:3 DVD, at 720p over DVI to my DLP. And Enhanced still works (although I have it set to Normal, and will leave it there).

Originally posted by BillP
I finally installed the V.8 firmware upgrade and can confirm that it fixes the bug that reset Normal black level to Enhanced whenever I turned on squeeze mode to watch a 4:3 DVD, at 720p over DVI to my DLP. And Enhanced still works (although I have it set to Normal, and will leave it there).


yeah....it only works in RGB mode though:confused:

Originally posted by DaveC56
This is a rather long thread and difficult to find a direct answer to my question. Thus, I would like some help from those DVD-3910 owners who have their DVD players connected to a HD Plasma via DVI or HDMI inputs. In the Secrets review of this DVD player, there was no Macroblocking when upconverting to 720p. I am very interested in knowing if this is true when connecting the DVD-3910 to an HD PDP with the conditions above. My PDP is a Fujitsu P50(Series)

I could have helped if you hadn't specified "HD". I have mine hooked up to a P42HA ED via DVI, upconverting to 720p and see no MB...just a solid steady picture. Very happy with it.

jack

Originally posted by Larry Geller
My player also won't pass BTB to a Sony XBR 36". Other players have done it, so it's NOT the TV. I have tried every choice (Enhanced, regular, etc) & it will NOT do it! I am connected via component.

For what it's worth, I can't get my 3910 (US version) to pass BTB through the analog outputs either. I've tried the PLUGE patterns from both the NTSC Video Essentials and the PAL Digital Video Essentials; I've tried the component, S-Video, and composite outputs; I've tried both the 0 and 7.5 IRE setup levels; I even tried jacking the player's internal brightness setting up to +12...all to no avail.

My display is a Panasonic 25P80R--multistandard (PAL/NTSC/SECAM), but non-progressive. It's never had any trouble dealing with BTB as output by my previous DVD players, so I'm led to assume that the problem lies with the Denon itself (which is currently running the multiregion -05 firmware).

Oh, and one other thing--although I have no trouble switching between the 0 and 7.5 setup levels, I cannot get the Denon's H.Position/V.Position settings to work at all. No matter how I set them, the picture remains locked to the very same spot, refusing to budge so much as a pixel's width in any direction.

So...any suggestions?

--Paul Curtis

Why would you send a 480i native signal to a ED plasma at 720P? It would be better to send it a 480P signal via DVI so that the display wouldn't have to re-process the 720P signal!

Dave

Paul,
RETURN YOUR UNIT....There is something obviously wrong with it.

Dave

Originally posted by ssabripo
yeah....it only works in RGB mode though:confused:

That's for HDMI. Mine is connected via DVI.

Originally posted by keenan
If you have the numbers on the DACs you can compare then at the TI site, although DACs alone, do not a good sounding player make...

http://focus-webapps.ti.com/paramsearch/docs/parametricsearch.tsp?startIdx=51&endIdx=60&familyId=582&totalCount=68&showAdditionalParameters=no&lc=3000166&lc=3000195&lc=2000084&lc=2300088&lc=2000305&lc=2200348&lc=2000089&lc=2000494&lc=2001130&compare=yes&download=yes&sort=yes&customize=yes&paramResults=yes&paramCriteria=yes&familyTree=yes&military=no&baSystem=yes&paramTable=yes&sortOption=&sortMode=&searchPaths=1000582&pageId=582&startIdx=51&endIdx=60&templateId=5275&navigationId=0&family=analog&paramTable=yes&military=no&ul=PCM1748&ul=PCM1753&ul=PCM1754&ul=PCM1755&ul=PCM1770&ul=PCM1771&ul=PCM1772&ul=PCM1773&ul=PCM1781&ul=PCM1782&#rt
Audio D to A Converters: Parametric Table

No, I don't have the numbers, but thanks for the link anyway. Now is there anyone with a simple yes/no answer to my questions about whether the DACs in my 5803 receiver are better than the ones in the 3910 and is the DenonLink connection on the 3910 compatible with the one on my 5803?


Ken

I can confirm that the Denon Link of the 5803 is compatible with the 3910 but I did have my receiver upgraded by Denon (PLIIx, HDCD, and DL3).
I use Denon Link between these two components and I am quite happy with the sound. I have not yet done a comparison of the sound quality of the 3910 vs. the 5803.

Originally posted by BillP
I finally installed the V.8 firmware upgrade and can confirm that it fixes the bug that reset Normal black level to Enhanced whenever I turned on squeeze mode to watch a 4:3 DVD, at 720p over DVI to my DLP. And Enhanced still works (although I have it set to Normal, and will leave it there).


Greetings,

I can confirm this as well and with the same outcome.



Regards,

Originally posted by macattack27
I can confirm that the Denon Link of the 5803 is compatible with the 3910 but I did have my receiver upgraded by Denon (PLIIx, HDCD, and DL3).
I use Denon Link between these two components and I am quite happy with the sound. I have not yet done a comparison of the sound quality of the 3910 vs. the 5803.

I've been considering getting my 5803 upgraded too, but I just haven't gotten around to it. If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take and how much did they charge you?

Thanks for your response,

Ken

Ken, the DACs in the 5803 are pretty close to the ones in the 3910. But as has been stated, this is *on paper*.

PCM-1738E - 5803
24-Bit Resolution
Dynamic Range: 117dB typ
SNR: 117dB typ
THD+N: 0.0004% typ

DSD1796 - 3910
24-Bit Resolution
Dynamic Range: 123 dB
THD+N: 0.0005%

I've got a 3805 and am confident the 3910 via analog out to my 3805 will sound better than using that receivers circuitry, but I wouldn't be as sure with yours. The 5803 is $4,400 and my 3805 was only $1,200.

Most Denon dealers have a return policy. Best way is try it and see for sure.

Originally posted by jazzcat
Ken, the DACs in the 5803 are pretty close to the ones in the 3910. But as has been stated, this is *on paper*.

PCM-1738E - 5803
24-Bit Resolution
Dynamic Range: 117dB typ
SNR: 117dB typ
THD+N: 0.0004% typ

DSD1796 - 3910
24-Bit Resolution
Dynamic Range: 123 dB
THD+N: 0.0005%

I've got a 3805 and am confident the 3910 via analog out to my 3805 will sound better than using that receivers circuitry, but I wouldn't be as sure with yours. The 5803 is $4,400 and my 3805 was only $1,200.

Most Denon dealers have a return policy. Best way is try it and see for sure.


Thanks for the info. I'd be pretty surprised if there was an audible difference between the two, but I'll still experiment with the connections to be sure.


Ken

Originally posted by K_Thompson
No, I don't have the numbers, but thanks for the link anyway. Now is there anyone with a simple yes/no answer to my questions about whether the DACs in my 5803 receiver are better than the ones in the 3910 and is the DenonLink connection on the 3910 compatible with the one on my 5803?


Ken

According to the Denon spec sheet, the 5803 uses PCM1738E

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1738.html
Product Folder : PCM1738 - 24-Bit 192 kHz Sampling Advanced Segment Audio Stereo DAC

And the 3910 uses PCM1796,

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1796.html
Product Folder : PCM1796 - 24 bit, 192kHz Stereo Audio DAC

As far as which is better, I would say the 3910. But DACs aren't everything, listen to it both ways and then decide.

RE: Denon Link on the 5803, I think it needs to upgraded, but I would check with Denon to be sure. Just plug your serial number in the form.

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp
DENON Home Audio

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Why would you send a 480i native signal to a ED plasma at 720P? It would be better to send it a 480P signal via DVI so that the display wouldn't have to re-process the 720P signal!

Dave

I've had the 3910 a week and have been playing with up- and down-sampling to see the difference. I was trying to help DaveC56 who wasn't getting any response to his query about an HD plasma. Did the best I could to help a member. OK?

jack

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Why would you send a 480i native signal to a ED plasma at 720P? It would be better to send it a 480P signal via DVI so that the display wouldn't have to re-process the 720P signal!

Dave

Maybe, maybe not. Are you sure the unit wouldn't have to reprocess anyway at 480p? AFAIK it is not a 1-1 pixel match. I've had the 3910 a week and have been playing with up- and down-sampling to see the difference. I was trying to help DaveC56 who wasn't getting any response to his query about an HD plasma. Did the best I could to help a member. OK?

jack

No problem...I wasn't being critical...I was trying to help. There is no need to upscale to 720P, if your display can only handle 480P.

Dave

Dave & Jack,

Thanks for your feedback. I currently own the Denon DVD-5900 and yes, it has the MB issue on dark scenes on many DVDs. On my HD PDP (Fujitsu P50 (30)) connected via the Denon 5900 DVI output & upconverting to 720p or 1080i, the PDP present a significantly better PQ than 480p. Also in the upconverting mode, aspect ratios of 1.85:1 scale perfectly to the 16:9 display and of course superscope movies (2.35:1) continue to have small black bars at the top and bottom of the PDP.

I have a DVD-3910 on order and will report back if I see the MB problem persists when scaling at 720p as well as an audio summary.

Dave C.

I've just thought of something. With my setup (tv in the wall, cables going through the wall). I really don't have the luxury of interchanging cables every now and then to test things out, once I make a cable choice I'm stuck with it. Now I'm getting a new Samsung DLP around June, and it has component and HDMI (not sure how many, as info hasn't been 100% released yet).

So I can switch between HDMI and Component if need be (as I can plug the DVD player directly into the receiver for that)... hrm...

So many choices...

- D

I know that before the -8 firmware upgrade I was able to switch between normal and enhanced over HDMI and see a difference between the 2 both in RGB (which I don't use since I have a direct view Sony CRT), and Yb Cy Rb which is what I have always used. If the new firmware has changed it so that it is only switchable over HDMI RGB, then I consider that a step backward for me and will revert to version 6.

With a CRT TV, you don't want to use RGB anyway. To be able to use the enhanced black on the Yb Cy Rb is a flaw in the player, it isn't supposed to be available on that output. That is why there is a firware fix for it.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
With a CRT TV, you don't want to use RGB anyway. To be able to use the enhanced black on the Yb Cy Rb is a flaw in the player, it isn't supposed to be available on that output. That is why there is a firware fix for it.

I'm going to pre-empt a lot of posts that will most definetley appear and asks for more explanation :)

- D

I have a Denon 3910 that is currently connected to my Samsung DLP507W with Audioquest YIQ-3 component cables. I have been considering switching to a DVI connection, but I am not sure I will get a better picture. I know I should just go get a cable and try it, but I thought I would ask if anyone has already done the same and what the results were for them. Still learning here.

Thanks in advance for your input :o)

Most CRT RPTV's dont handle PC RGB. Only DLP's and LCD's do I believe.

Dave

smreed....I actually prefer the component connections to the DVI to my Hitachi RPTV. I find that with the DVI and upscaling, there is a lot of background noise compared to the component 480P signal.

Originally posted by smreed32
I have a Denon 3910 that is currently connected to my Samsung DLP507W with Audioquest YIQ-3 component cables. I have been considering switching to a DVI connection, but I am not sure I will get a better picture. I know I should just go get a cable and try it, but I thought I would ask if anyone has already done the same and what the results were for them. Still learning here.

Thanks in advance for your input :o)

Try it. I promise you'll like it. I have the 3910 hooked up via DVI to my Sammy HLN 567W (720p out), and it's fantastic.

smreed32

I have 3910 hooked up via HDMI to my Sammy 5674 and love it. It looks like film, like a movie theatre etc. And hooked up 720p, normal black, IRE = 0. I concur with Bill P, get a DVI. Save a few bucks at Bluejeanscables.com, or via Ebuyer.com get the Monster Cable version for about $10 more...

I bought an excellent DVI cable at RAM for about $50. No need to buy a Monster for twice as much.

Blue Jeans Cable all the way, I plan to use them from DVI - HDMI cable (thus no adapters) from PC to Display.

Should be lovely.

- D

Originally posted by BillP
Try it. I promise you'll like it. I have the 3910 hooked up via DVI to my Sammy HLN 567W (720p out), and it's fantastic.


Thanks for the comment BillP. I am heading out of town for a week tomorrow, but I will definitely try the DVI cable when I get home. I was just curious to know some others thoughts, because the salesperson at Magnolia HiFi said that I may not get any better results with DVI because I was already using a $300 component cable. I know that the 3910 does not upconvert with component though.

One last question...do I have to do anything special on my TV when I connect the 3910 via DVI? Turn any settings on or off?

Thanks - Scott

Originally posted by mismatched
smreed32

I have 3910 hooked up via HDMI to my Sammy 5674 and love it. It looks like film, like a movie theatre etc. And hooked up 720p, normal black, IRE = 0. I concur with Bill P, get a DVI. Save a few bucks at Bluejeanscables.com, or via Ebuyer.com get the Monster Cable version for about $10 more...


Thanks mismatched. My Sammy doesn't have an HDMI port, so I will have to use DVI only. I am going to pick up a DVI cable soon and give it a try.

Scott