Originally posted by Sam Scamardo


So, on another topic, why is it that some people are not seeing BTB? I have a strong suspicion that their displays are clipping BTB information. I can't see how different build dates (and using the same firmware) could account for the discrepancies reported.

Sam

I agree totally with you that it is strange that some people are having problems with their 3910 passing BTb signals but I really dont think the problem is a display problem, at least not for Jazzcat. Using the SAME display and connections, Jazzcat could get a 2910 to pass BTB in DVE but could NOT get 2 different 3910s to pass BTB. It therefore is not the display in his case. The rest of us have not had the luxury of having another quality DVD player to test on our displays. I and others have an email into Denon on this issue and hopefully resolution is close at hand. :)

mismatched

PS Just noticed that btiltman above also posted that a 2910 passed BTB but a 3910 did not!! That is two cases where the logical conclusion is that the fault is the player and not the display.

Originally posted by mismatched
Sam

I agree totally with you that it is strange that some people are having problems with their 3910 passing BTb signals but I really dont think the problem is a display problem, at least not for Jazzcat. Using the SAME display and connections, Jazzcat could get a 2910 to pass BTB in DVE but could NOT get 2 different 3910s to pass BTB. It therefore is not the display in his case. The rest of us have not had the luxury of having another quality DVD player to test on our displays. I and others have an email into Denon on this issue and hopefully resolution is close at hand. :)

mismatched

PS Just noticed that btiltman above also posted that a 2910 passed BTB but a 3910 did not!! That is two cases where the logical conclusion is that the fault is the player and not the display.

I have had several people suggest that the problem is in my Samsung; that they are prone to crush black. There is nothing farther from the truth. BOTH my Panny RP-82 and 2910 passed BTB with ease. I can't accept that a $1,500 dollar player crushes blacks where the $650 2910 has no issues. I even re-bought my 2910 back after returning the first 3910 just to make sure I wasn't seeing things and yes, it displayed all 3 pluge pulses.

This is not a problem with my equipment. I hope Denon can come up with a fix for this because I am blown away by the difference in audio vs. the 2910.

Harvey, trading the 2900 for a 2910 is a step backward. The 2910 replaced the 2200.

Jazzcat,
Try and find a player with a different build date.

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Jazzcat,
Try and find a player with a different build date.

Dave

I agree Dave. But it seems all the stock at Tweeter was ordered early on and all they have is August/September build dates. I even told my guy there that if I have to return every 3910 I order from them till I get a more recent build date and one that passes BTB I will. He said go for it. But that is not the most efficient way to go about solving this issue!

I wish I knew someone in the Dallas area that has a 3910 that passes BTB and I would welcome them to bring it over and hook it up.

Originally posted by jazzcat
I wish I knew someone in the Dallas area that has a 3910 that passes BTB and I would welcome them to bring it over and hook it up.

I live in Carrollton.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
I live in Carrollton.

I PM'ed you.

jazzcat & Sam,

Since you are both my customers ;), if you do get together I'll be glad to come along with my Accupel and other gear to further help confirm what you are seeing. Just let me know.

Originally posted by Cheezmo
jazzcat & Sam,

Since you are both my customers ;), if you do get together I'll be glad to come along with my Accupel and other gear to further help confirm what you are seeing. Just let me know.

Hi Steve, I talked to Sam and I switched to 480p component. Can't see any of the three pluge pulses with 0 IRE. When I switched to 7.5, I saw the 2 inner pulses, but not the BTB 3rd pluge pulse, just like with DVI.

Jazzcat,

I know that you are obsessing about this because "if it is there I want to know my DVD player produces it", but...

Your TV does not float black level at all. If you calibrate the black level properly to where black is black, absolutely nothing below black will ever be visible on your TV. The fact that the DVD player does or doesn't pass it makes absolutely no difference as to what you will see when you are watching DVDs. The only way it would would be if you intentionally set your brightness level too high.

For those with the 3910 that might have missed my message of a couple pages ago here it is again:

Thread

Taking a poll: How many forums members have tested their Denon 3910's ability to pass BTB using the Brightness adjustment pluge pattern in the basic video section of DVE? At least three new machines out here will not do it! Please respond with your results. Sending a summary to Denon may help them fix this problem. In your response mention your display type, the build date if you know it and your connection type. The failure appears to be independent of using firmware -5, or -8. In addition at least two individuals know that the problem is NOT with their displays.

thanks :)

mismatched

PS Needless to say if you have already responded to the poll please do not do so again. :D

PPS Well maybe this poll is a moot point in light of Cheezmo's post just above!! :D :D

Steve, the only issue I have now is that all things being equal, I was able to see it with the 2910. So was there something wrong with that unit?

Obsessed is a good description :)

Maybe we should take a different poll: How many out there care whether their DVD players pass BTB?? :D

Originally posted by jazzcat
Steve, the only issue I have now is that all things being equal, I was able to see it with the 2910. So was there something wrong with that unit?

Obsessed is a good description :)

You should only have been able to see if if your brightness was turned up too high. I don't remember if that is the player you had when I calibrated your set, but if it was I should have left the brightness set such that blacker than black was not visible (without turning up the brightness just to see if you could see it).

Hi

I am looking into getting a 3910 and was wondering does the HDMI pass multi channel DD and DTS? I have read that the current version of HDMI only passes 2 channel DD and DTS or is it incorrect?

Thanks

Golden-Eagle

No...it has been upgraded to the 1.1 spec and it will pas 2 channel PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS, and Multichannel PCM...but your reciever must also have the 1.1 spec on it.

Dave

I assume jazzcat and mismatched turned their brightness way up and were not able to see the 3rd pluge bar, correct? Because if you calibrate black correctly you will not see the third bar, obviously.

You are saying no matter how high you turn up the brighness on your display, you cannot see a 3rd black bar using the DVE pattern, correct?

Uzun

to answer your question "You are saying no matter how high you turn up the brighness on your display, you cannot see a 3rd black bar using the DVE pattern, correct?"

Yes, as far as I could turn it up it did not matter, no 3rd, or outside, bar!

Yes, as far as I could turn it up it did not matter, no 3rd, or outside, bar!

The same with mine.

Originally posted by mismatched
In your response mention your display type, the build date if you know it and your connection type.

Where is the build date found?

I have looked on the back of the unit (which is not easy at present) and on the box label.

Bill

Bill

If you are looking at the back of the unit there is a ~1 in white sticker just right of where your 5.1 analog output cables feed into the machine. I just looked and FYI my machine is a November 2004 build.

mismatched

Thread

For those of you using the 3910 and 39805 combo (or similar) I have an audio question: When playing regular CDs (2 channel) and having the 3805 set for Ext IN input from the DVD player do you set the bass enhancer on the 3910 in the Setup menu to "ON". If so is this supposed to result in sound being sent through the SW or does it just "override" the crossover setting and allow lower tones to come through the 2 front L?R speakers? And secondly if the 3910 bass enhancer is ON will this have any effect when playing a 5.1 CD or DVD again using Ext In on the 3805??

Wondering how this all is supposed to work before testing. Seems like a SACD (Willie Nelson, Stardust) was weak on the bass tones and I could not sense anything coming through the SW and turned on the bass enhancer on the 3910. This seemed to result in better bass levels. However when I watched "Tron" last night on DVD the bass was a bit overwhelming. Now not sure if it was just that DVD sound track or not. Had to return the DVD...

Any instruction here will be appreciated and rewarded with :D s.

thanks

mismatched

mismatched,

In order to maintain 2.1 playback of either 2-Channel SACD or CD you need to hook up a pair of analog cables to an unused input such as the CD input on the 3805. Otherwise, you will have no subwoofer output while using only the EXT. Inputs.

Follow this:
http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/5900_3805%20setup%20tips.pdf

Enjoy!

Originally posted by uzun
I assume jazzcat and mismatched turned their brightness way up and were not able to see the 3rd pluge bar, correct? Because if you calibrate black correctly you will not see the third bar, obviously.

You are saying no matter how high you turn up the brighness on your display, you cannot see a 3rd black bar using the DVE pattern, correct?
Same here. Actually, since my (analog) display doesn't hold black as steadily as one might wish, I have to use the high-average PLUGE for setting the brightness control...meaning that, when the low-average PLUGE is displayed, I should just be able to make out the BTB bar. Or at least, that's my experience with every other DVD player I've tried. Since my new 3910 clips all BTB information, it doesn't matter how high I crank the brightness: that third bar remains stubbornly invisible.

--Paul Curtis

I have a 3805 and 3910 and have gone back and forth with digital vs. analog playback out of the 3910. I currently use the 3910 with source direct ON, via the analog 5.1 outs for DVD-A and SACD, and use a Coax Digital hookup for everything else. For movies and CD's it seems the processing in the 3805 is quite good enough, and the room equalization feature helps. With higher resolution music it appears, with my equipment and in my judgement, that the 3910 provides significantly more detail than the 3805 does. When you choose Source Direct ON in the 3910 setup, SACD is kept DSD throughout (no conversion to PCM), channel delay settings are used, but nothing else is. Additionally, the Bass Enhancer is forced off and cannot be turned on. On my system I notice a degradation in sound quality when I turn Source Direct OFF for SACD sources. I don't find bass enhancement desireable for DVD-Audio source material that I have listened to (again, using my equipment as a guide YMMV).

If you set Source Direct OFF and Bass Enhancer ON, 2 channel sources will have some bass data sent to the subwoofer if appropriate (depending on crossover freq setting) but only if you hook up using analog 2ch outs from the 3910 and choose that analog input on the 3805. If you use Ext In. and the 5.1 outs you won't hear any .1 bass. I believe Willie Nelson's Stardust is a stereo only SACD, the bass enhancer setting should have an effect if the crossover freq is set higher than the typical bass data on the disc. It's quite possible there's not much very low freq information on the stardust recording, and you might have your crossover frequency set low enough that none of it would be sent to the SW. It's possible that the Bass Enhancer doesn't operate for SACD sources, but it seems it should if you have Source Direct OFF.

Setting the bass enhancer to on (and source direct OFF) basically converts the DSD info on the SACD to PCM. A lot of people seem to feel this hurts the fidelity of the music, myself included. A number of people say it makes no difference, You should listen to it both ways and decide for yourself with your own equipment.

Originally posted by uzun
I have a 3805 and 3910 and have gone back and forth with digital vs. analog playback out of the 3910. I currently use the 3910 with source direct ON, via the analog 5.1 outs for DVD-A and SACD, and use a Coax Digital hookup for everything else. For movies and CD's it seems the processing in the 3805 is quite good enough, and the room equalization feature helps. With higher resolution music it appears, with my equipment and in my judgement, that the 3910 provides significantly more detail than the 3805 does. When you choose Source Direct ON in the 3910 setup, SACD is kept DSD throughout (no conversion to PCM), channel delay settings are used, but nothing else is. Additionally, the Bass Enhancer is forced off and cannot be turned on. On my system I notice a degradation in sound quality when I turn Source Direct OFF for SACD sources. I don't find bass enhancement desireable for DVD-Audio source material that I have listened to (again, using my equipment as a guide YMMV).

Have you tried playing SACDs with the DSD filter set at 100KHz? I've found that the 50K filter is awfully noisy--if I set Source Direct on, but leave the filter at 50K, then exit the setup menu, and load (without necessarily playing) an SACD, there is an immediate jump in the level of background hiss. To avoid this, I have to either turn off Source Direct, or set the filter to 100K. For the past few weeks, I've done the latter, and it hasn't seemed to harm my equipment any. YMMV, natch.

--Paul Curtis

Originally posted by Paul Curtis
Have you tried playing SACDs with the DSD filter set at 100KHz? I've found that the 50K filter is awfully noisy--if I set Source Direct on, but leave the filter at 50K, then exit the setup menu, and load (without necessarily playing) an SACD, there is an immediate jump in the level of background hiss. To avoid this, I have to either turn off Source Direct, or set the filter to 100K. For the past few weeks, I've done the latter, and it hasn't seemed to harm my equipment any. YMMV, natch.

--Paul Curtis

I've had mine set to 100K since Day 1, with no harm done.

Paul and uzun - - thanks for the clarification vis a vi the extra analog cables hooked up CD play. And the other advice for you and others. I have not had the courage to set the SACD filter to 100KHz. One thing at a time already! :D

m

I set the SACD filter to 100Khz, I never tried it at the default 50Khz setting as I don't see the point when coupled with a 3805/Vandersteen speakers.

uzun

My B&W F/L P6 speakers have a frequency response of 40Hz-20kHz +/-2dB, and a
frequency range of -6dB at 29Hz and 30kHz. My B&W center channel: 6dB at 50Hz and 30kHz. My B&W rears: -6dB at 65Hz and 22kHz

So unless I totally misunderstand I am reluctant to set the SACD filter at the higher setting of 100kHz.

m

Ok, I was contacted by LAF02 (Thanks a million!) who was kind enough to bring his 3910 by. It is a June build date. Passes BTB on my display with ease. Identical settings on his player vs. both the 3910's I have owned.

Check the difference between June, September and August build dates.

This is LAF02's 3910 connected DVI 720p.

Here is my August build date. Same paremeters.

Here's the September build date model I had:

My 3910 which does NOT pass BTB as posted previously has a build date of November '04...

PS. My BTB test looks just like your August and Sept builds.

August and Sept was at 100% brightness.

June was less than 60%. Hard to see anything on Aug and Sept at 60%

I'm glad I have a June Build date :)

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
I'm glad I have a June Build date :)

Dave

Dave, if yours can pass BTB, it is the fourth documented June build date that can.

Yes...mine does pass BTB.

Dave

Everyone concerned:

I have summarized our BTB findings and sent them along with a link to this thread to Jim McGuiness at Denon.

mismatched

PS the message was polite. :D

Another June '04 here. :)

Originally posted by mismatched...
I have summarized our BTB findings and sent them along with a link to this thread to Jim McGuiness at Denon.

Good work, mismatched. Thank you. Keep us updated.

Jim M. had written to me earlier in response to my tech support question, that they were working on the BTB issue - so they are aware of it. Your summary would give them better idea. I just hope that the non-passing of the BTB can be remedied merely by a firmware upgrade (without needing any change in the hardware settings). I don't too much care about it (because one can still properly calibrate the display); however, I would like to have it having spent a non-trivial sum on a DVD player.

Bear in mind with the 2.1 channel output they are referring to in the denon setup when using the analog in's on a 3805, the .1 channel is being created by the 3805 when it RE-DIGITIZES the analog signal you send it. To have the 3910 do a conversion from digital to analog (after possibly converting DSD to PCM in the case of SACD's) then have the 3805 do a Analog to Digital conversion, then an ADDITIONAL Digital to Analog conversion is not a good way to go sound-quality wise.

Either send the signal digitally to the 3805 and have it do all the processing, or send it out of the 3910 via 5.1 analog out's forcing the 3910 to do all the processing (the 3805 plays 5.1 Ext In material without adding additional processing). It's a poor choice to have the 3910 do a DAC then feed that analog into the 3805 which then re-digitizes it and does another DAC.

Originally posted by uzun
Bear in mind with the 2.1 channel output they are referring to in the denon setup when using the analog in's on a 3805, the .1 channel is being created by the 3805 when it RE-DIGITIZES the analog signal you send it. To have the 3910 do a conversion from digital to analog (after possibly converting DSD to PCM in the case of SACD's) then have the 3805 do a Analog to Digital conversion, then an ADDITIONAL Digital to Analog conversion is not a good way to go sound-quality wise.

Either send the signal digitally to the 3805 and have it do all the processing, or send it out of the 3910 via 5.1 analog out's forcing the 3910 to do all the processing (the 3805 plays 5.1 Ext In material without adding additional processing). It's a poor choice to have the 3910 do a DAC then feed that analog into the 3805 which then re-digitizes it and does another DAC.

The 3805 does not "re-digitize" the signal if you are using Pure Direct and you can still have a SW output. The 3805 takes a copy, or parallel signal from the input and uses that to creat the SW output. It does not effect the original analog stereo input.

IOW, you can have a pure analog signal from the 3910 all the way to the speakers, and have a SW channel output if you desire.

I wonder how desireable having a parallel signal digitized, then have it's bass output added to the original signal is. I see in the manual to assure no digital processing of the analog signal in pure direct mode you have to have the SW set to OFF, so it seems you are correct.

Unless I had range limited fronts, however, I don't think I would want a second copy of the original signal to be digitized, processed, then re-mixed with the original analog input. Especially since the original analog input has all the bass information still in it.

So I guess the 2 channel analog input is played back pure, with all the bass information intact, and some digitized bass is created and played back in parallel over the SW channel when you use 2ch analog inputs in pure direct/direct modes. You get double bass in that case, which I guess would help some systems. I'll give it a try on my setup and see what it sounds like with some 2ch SACD's.

No, the parallel circuit creates the .1 SW channel, it does not add that created LF info back into the analog signal. It provides a signal for the SW in addition to the normal analog stereo 2ch output.

Jeff Talmadge explained this to me awhile back, in fact he was remarking on how this info was not in the manuals or was not clear and that Denon has had this type of circuit in their receivers for years.

Keenan/uzun

I am getting a bit confused following your exchanges. For "simple" stereo CDs and SACDs when I set my 3805 to Ext In and have Source direct off (a setting choice I still dont fully understand) I get no signal thru the SW, as expected. Using 2 ch analog output to the CD input port on my 3805 and setting the CD input to either stereo or pure direct a signal is sent to my SW. So is this signal to the SW now being "generated" by the 3805 ??? Is this bad or good??

As another option I understand that I can set Source Direct to ON and simply use Ext In on my 3805 while playing these 2 ch disks and I will also get a .1 signal. Is this true? And is this approach more or less desirable to the 2 ch approach??

I realize this "problem" may be a small issue and does not pertain to the surround sound SACDs and DVD-a disks but I do have quite a collection of plain ol' CDs and would like to get the best of them.

thanks guys

Mismatched

If the analog signal in pure direct mode is unchanged from the source, it contains all the original bass information. The "Created" LFE signal would be a subset containing only the bass information (unless the 3805 invents it's own bass information that was not present on the original disc, which I highly doubt). If the analog signal is truly untouched and undigitized you will wind up with the same bass information in both signals. This may be desireable for some speaker systems, depending on your front speakers. I'll have to audition it for my own setup to be sure, but for many systems this would be worse than simply letting the fronts reproduce the bass as it was mixed.

If you have source direct ON, and playback using the 5.1 outs on the 3910 and ext in on the 3805, 2 channel sources will be played as they were mixed, 2 channels with no LFE channel. If you have decent fronts this should not be a problem. If you try and create a .1 channel where there is none on the disc, using the analog ins on the 3805 and having the 3805 do it, then you will be telling the 3805 to re-digitize the signal and create an lfe channel out of the bass information present in the digitized version of the analog inputs.

If I wanted to get an LFE channel from a 2 channel non-SACD digital source that had no LFE data, I would just send the data digitally to the 3805 and have it do the entire operation in the digital domain, with a single D to A conversion at the end of the process. That means coax/toslink for most sources, and Denonlink for DVD-A.

If I HAD to get an LFE channel out of an SACD mix that had none, I would probably try and find a way for the 3910 to output a 2.1 analog signal using its own bass management circuitry. I was under the impression that the 3910 would do this when you set the bass management up correctly, but I could be mistaken there. Clearly this would mean a DSD-PCM conversion for SACD's but that would almost certainly be preferable to having the 3805 re-digitize a parallel version of the analog inputs and create one that way.

Originally posted by mismatched
Keenan/uzun

Using 2 ch analog output to the CD input port on my 3805 and setting the CD input to either stereo or pure direct a signal is sent to my SW. So is this signal to the SW now being "generated" by the 3805 ??? Is this bad or good??

Mismatched

This is what I am talking about. The SW signal is culled from the digitized parallel signal that is tapped off of the analog input. The analog signal itself is not touched. You can use this signal to re-inforce the overall bass in the system or use it with the mains with a LF cutoff applied. Have the mains cut at say 60Hz and have the signal created for the SW channel handle the rest. The SW channel can be adjusted for level and/or turned completely off by using the enter button on the remote and pressing through until you get to SW. Adjusting the level all the way down turns off the the output. All the above refers to the 3805.

Good or bad? Well that depends on how well your main speakers deal with LF. Very few mains are equipped to deal with LF output as good as a SW can. OTOH, in a lot of music there isn't much down that low anyway.

Thing to remember is that by using the Direct or Pure Direct mode on the analog CD input you ARE NOT re-digitizing the signal coming from the analog outputs of the 3910. You are re-digitizing the parallel signal that is tapped from that input to extract the LF material. And, IMO, there are so many other distortion causing problems going on with LF material that sending an analog-digital-analog signal to the SW is something I personally don't worry about. In fact I use a Behringer 1124(Feedback Destroyer) to tame the LF content before it's sent to the SW and it's digital.

Originally posted by uzun
If the analog signal in pure direct mode is unchanged from the source, it contains all the original bass information. The "Created" LFE signal would be a subset containing only the bass information (unless the 3805 invents it's own bass information that was not present on the original disc, which I highly doubt). If the analog signal is truly untouched and undigitized you will wind up with the same bass information in both signals. This may be desireable for some speaker systems, depending on your front speakers. I'll have to audition it for my own setup to be sure, but for many systems this would be worse than simply letting the fronts reproduce the bass as it was mixed.


Agreed, it will depend on the mains whether you wanted or needed that SW output, and remember that SW output can be raised or lowered or turned off completely. In fact the 3805 "creates" that SW output by default on analog stereo inputs IIRC.



If I wanted to get an LFE channel from a 2 channel non-SACD digital source that had no LFE data, I would just send the data digitally to the 3805 and have it do the entire operation in the digital domain, with a single D to A conversion at the end of the process. That means coax/toslink for most sources, and Denonlink for DVD-A.


That depends on whether you preferred the sound quality of the CDPs DACS or the 3805's DACs. Personally, I prefer the DACs in my 5900 as opposed to the 3805. The 3910 is a very similar sounding player to the 5900.




If I HAD to get an LFE channel out of an SACD mix that had none, I would probably try and find a way for the 3910 to output a 2.1 analog signal using its own bass management circuitry. I was under the impression that the 3910 would do this when you set the bass management up correctly, but I could be mistaken there. Clearly this would mean a DSD-PCM conversion for SACD's but that would almost certainly be preferable to having the 3805 re-digitize a parallel version of the analog inputs and create one that way.

To do it this way the DSD has to be converted to PCM to do the BM.

Originally posted by mismatched
Thread

Taking a poll: How many have tested their Denon 3910's ability to pass BTB using the Brightness adjustment pluge pattern in the basic video section of DVE? At least three new machines out here will not do it! In your response mention your display type and your connection type. The failure appears to be independent of using firmware -5 of -8.

thanks

mismatched

Greetings,

3910 Build date - June 2004
Purchased - October 2004
Ability to pass BTB - Yes
Display - Sony HS10 LCD front projector
Connection type - DVI set to 720p


Regards,

I use the "small" speaker setting on the 3910 since I have B&W's small VM-1 lifestyle speakers with a subwoofer. In order to get any bass I must use the sub. I'd need CD, SACD, DVD-A. DVD, FM, Cable box 5.1, etc. to have bass come through the sub. I have the Arcam AVR 300 which has various speaker settings available as well.

Please, can someone recommend the best set up for bass output from all sources that avoids converting SACD to PCM if possible.

does any of all the 3910 owners hade sometimes problem that the i link keep flashing as if he doesnt recognize the reciever?
i have the combo of 3910 and az-9 of yamaha,and sometimes when i turn on both of them the i link in the denon keep flashing until i turn it off and turn it on again..
do i have to turn on the denon first and only then the az-9? the dvi coming out from the 3910 is always on and never hade any problem conecting to my plazma fujitsu..
be glad to hear what you all have to say about this issue !

Keenan

thanks for the clarifications on my LF concerns!! It makes more sense although some of the terminology is greek to me!! :)

Now where can I educated myself a bit on how, when and when not to use Source Direct on the 3910.

m

Hello,

I'm very interested in upgrading form my 2900 to a 3910. Could someone tell me what the biggest improvements would be of both the audio and video performance if I upgrade to the 3910. It sound like most of you are very happy with your 3910's. Are the improvements huge over the 2900 ... would they be noticed by everyone or minor and only noticed by the most discriminating viewer/listener?

Thanks very much!

I cannot compare the 2900 to the 3910 but I can compare the 2910 to the 3910. I had a 2910 for a loaner for about 2 months and liked it very much, nice video and great sound. When the 3910 arrived I was blown away by the improved sound stage that it created, As for video comparisons you will have to ask others....

bottom line for me is that it is a great player (despite this ongoing BTB issue and whether it really matters or not!! :D).

mismatched

Originally posted by Harvey.G
Hello,

I'm very interested in upgrading form my 2900 to a 3910. Could someone tell me what the biggest improvements would be of both the audio and video performance if I upgrade to the 3910. It sound like most of you are very happy with your 3910's. Are the improvements huge over the 2900 ... would they be noticed by everyone or minor and only noticed by the most discriminating viewer/listener?

Thanks very much!


Greetings,

I had the 2900 and upgraded to the 3910. I can tell you that without question the 3910 offers an apparent improvement in musical performance. The video side will be display dependant in my opinion. If you have a digital display and are connecting via HDMI or DVI I think the video quality improvement is obvious. If you are going to connect your 3910 to your display via component then the improvement ( and there is ) is slight.

To answer your question, it really depends.


Regards,

Originally posted by shlomore
does any of all the 3910 owners hade sometimes problem that the i link keep flashing as if he doesnt recognize the reciever?
i have the combo of 3910 and az-9 of yamaha,and sometimes when i turn on both of them the i link in the denon keep flashing until i turn it off and turn it on again..
do i have to turn on the denon first and only then the az-9? the dvi coming out from the 3910 is always on and never hade any problem conecting to my plazma fujitsu..
be glad to hear what you all have to say about this issue !

I have the same setup and the same problem!

I also have an occasional audio drop out too.

I hope some one has a few answers.

Originally posted by shlomore
does any of all the 3910 owners hade sometimes problem that the i link keep flashing as if he doesnt recognize the reciever?
i have the combo of 3910 and az-9 of yamaha,and sometimes when i turn on both of them the i link in the denon keep flashing until i turn it off and turn it on again..
do i have to turn on the denon first and only then the az-9? the dvi coming out from the 3910 is always on and never hade any problem conecting to my plazma fujitsu..
be glad to hear what you all have to say about this issue !

I have the same setup and the same problem!

I also have an occasional audio drop out too.

I hope some one has a few answers.

I'm in the market for a universal player.I've read thru most of the threads but noone has answered my question.I currently own a Sony 999ES Sa-cd player.I've tried the 2910 & a few other uni players.All of which have a fixed crossover at 80hz.I run my speakers full range & it bugs me that I can't send anything below 80 to my speakers.What I'm wondering is if the 3910 is comparable to the 999 for SA-CD?

I know that you can set the crossover on the 39100 to 60hz and possibly lower. Comparable to the 999 I have not a clue. Comparable to "awesome", YES! :D

Originally posted by W4ZOO
I have the same setup and the same problem!

I also have an occasional audio drop out too.

I hope some one has a few answers.

Originally posted by shlomore
does any of all the 3910 owners hade sometimes problem that the i link keep flashing as if he doesnt recognize the reciever?
i have the combo of 3910 and az-9 of yamaha,and sometimes when i turn on both of them the i link in the denon keep flashing until i turn it off and turn it on again..
do i have to turn on the denon first and only then the az-9? the dvi coming out from the 3910 is always on and never hade any problem conecting to my plazma fujitsu..
be glad to hear what you all have to say about this issue !

Yes this happens to me too, and i have the same setup.
I just make sure that I turn the Z9 on first, wait a few seconds and then turn on the 3910. This seems to help a bit and it connects nearly all the time, on the first go.

I also am having the iLink audio 'glitches' problem still (as i have mentioned in another thread and on this thread before) and i am still waiting for an offical reply from Denon, i've been waitng about two weeks now.

W4ZOO (Ken) i am curious if you have read this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=466181&referrerid=7459668) thread and if you are experiencing the exact same problems with the iLink connection and the Z9??? Specifically with Dolby Digital?
3910 audio problems thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=466181&referrerid=7459668)

Thankyou
cheers :)
KJ

2 questions

1. This is about the crossover. I have all speakers set to large. And No subwoofer, setup in the menu!

Then why does the Denon still give me an option for crossover, I want a flat signal, and no crossover, is that possible? If not is it better to set the lowest crossover? or the highest?

2. I have some DVD-Audio disks that are protected, How can I send the signal out through Digial Coax? is there a way to allow the unit to turn off the copy protection so I can have the 96Khz audio go to my Exernal DAC 1?

I have had problems with the iLink connection between the DVD-3910 and an Integra Research RDC 7.1.

The units seem to recognize each other - the firewire indicator is lit (not flashing) on each device. However, the sound is muted and drops out every other second.

What is the proper way to setup the Denon player? I have the current firmware version installed - v8. When you select firewire in the menu and it opens up the new screen - does it matter what Auto Play is set to? I left the other setting on Format1. Also, do you have to disconnect the analog multichannel outs and coaxial output (I left both connected)?

Thanks

Hi akopperl

I don't exactly have an answer, but i have started a thread specifically regarding the 3910 and iLink
3910 audio problems thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=466181&referrerid=7459668)
i'd be most interested to hear your comments on what exactly you have been experiencing with the Integra Research RDC 7.1 and the 3910 over iLink.
I have the Z9, but it would be strange to know if you are having the very same problem with another A/V receiver.

Cheers:)
KJ
(just regarding the cable connection, you can have any cables you want connected, it will not matter, it is just that they will not be used)

Originally posted by mismatched
I cannot compare the 2900 to the 3910 but I can compare the 2910 to the 3910. I had a 2910 for a loaner for about 2 months and liked it very much, nice video and great sound. When the 3910 arrived I was blown away by the improved sound stage that it created, As for video comparisons you will have to ask others....

bottom line for me is that it is a great player (despite this ongoing BTB issue and whether it really matters or not!! :D).

mismatched


Mismatched,

Thank you for your feedback!

Originally posted by placidman
Greetings,

I had the 2900 and upgraded to the 3910. I can tell you that without question the 3910 offers an apparent improvement in musical performance. The video side will be display dependant in my opinion. If you have a digital display and are connecting via HDMI or DVI I think the video quality improvement is obvious. If you are going to connect your 3910 to your display via component then the improvement ( and there is ) is slight.

To answer your question, it really depends.


Regards,


Hello Ralph,

Thanks for the info. Great stuff .. what I was hoping to hear from someone who had the 2900. Just placed the order with my dealer.

Regards

Harvey

Originally posted by SOWK
2 questions

1. This is about the crossover. I have all speakers set to large. And No subwoofer, setup in the menu!

Then why does the Denon still give me an option for crossover, I want a flat signal, and no crossover, is that possible? If not is it better to set the lowest crossover? or the highest?

2. I have some DVD-Audio disks that are protected, How can I send the signal out through Digial Coax? is there a way to allow the unit to turn off the copy protection so I can have the 96Khz audio go to my Exernal DAC 1?

Regarding question 2, no, you can't send the HiRez portion of DVD-A over Toslink or SPDIF outputs. Or turn the copy protection off...

EDIT: You can do what you want, but you have to modify the player to do it with something like what DVDUpgrades does. Didn't you ask this question before?...

http://www.dvdupgrades.ch/150019/Modification/SPDIF/Output/Six_channel_S_P_DIF_output_board.html
dvdupgrades® -- Modification : SPDIF : Six channel S/P-DIF output board

Then why can a crappy $200.00 Samsung DVD-Audio player I have, can do it but the Denon can't! Thats crap, I was going to sell the samsung, but now apparently I have to use it as a back up for my DVD-Audio Disks! AHHH

Originally posted by SOWK
Then why can a crappy $200.00 Samsung DVD-Audio player I have, can do it but the Denon can't! Thats crap, I was going to sell the samsung, but now apparently I have to use it as a back up for my DVD-Audio Disks! AHHH

Two choices:

1. Use the 5.1 analog connections, if your receiver has them, or
2. Buy a Denon receiver and use their proprietary Denon Link cable (it comes "free" with the 3910).

Originally posted by SOWK
I have some DVD-Audio disks that are protected, How can I send the signal out through Digial Coax? is there a way to allow the unit to turn off the copy protection so I can have the 96Khz audio go to my Exernal DAC 1?

Since the audio DACs are probably better in the 3910 than your receiver, you really should use analog interconnects anyway.

Originally posted by BillP
Since the audio DACs are probably better in the 3910 than your receiver, you really should use analog interconnects anyway.

I never said I was going into my receiver! I said my external DAC

The external Dac is the Benchmark DAC 1, and it is still quite a bit better then the internal dac's of the 3910.


There has to be a way of doing it though, again why can a $200.00 samsung output copy protected DVD-Audio through Digital Coax, but not the Denon 3910?

Your Benchmark CANT decode an MLP DVD-A stream and the Samsung CANT output DVD-A via coax

Oh ok, thanks for not using either product and thinking you know what your talking about.

I have both and they both do what you say they can not!

Are you sure it is the DVD-A stream and not a Dolby Digital stream?

Dave

Of course not Dave, He know everything. LMAO! Ya, I own a Benchmark (it's in the closet) and I sell 4-5 Sammy a month. I'm in the business so I get to play with these things daily. Before I put you on ignore, Let me give you a hint. DVD-A CANNOT BE OUTPUT VIA DIGITAL COAX. The fact that you don't know this tells me a lot about your experience. It can however be output via IEEE 1394 and Denon link.

Your Sammy is lifting the DTS or Dolby Digital audio stream off the disc but I guarantee you that no Meridian Lossless Processing stream is being output to the benchmark. And even if it was, the Benchmark wouldn't know what to do with it.

http://stlriderz.com/html/emoticons/stfu2.gif

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
Of course not Dave, He know everything. LMAO! Ya, I own a Benchmark (it's in the closet) and I sell 4-5 Sammy a month. I'm in the business so I get to play with these things daily. Before I put you on ignore, Let me give you a hint. DVD-A CANNOT BE OUTPUT VIA DIGITAL COAX. The fact that you don't know this tells me a lot about your experience. It can however be output via IEEE 1394 and Denon link.

Your Sammy is lifting the DTS or Dolby Digital audio stream off the disc but I guarantee you that no Meridian Lossless Processing stream is being output to the benchmark. And even if it was, the Benchmark wouldn't know what to do with it.

http://stlriderz.com/html/emoticons/stfu2.gif


Hey SOWK, or whatever your pseudonym is...

This is you right about now:
http://www.classic-space.com/spaceblog/owned.jpg

http://stlriderz.com/html/emoticons/lol.gif

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Are you sure it is the DVD-A stream and not a Dolby Digital stream?

Dave

SOWK has asked this question in the past and it has been answered but for some reason he does not want to accept the answer.

SOWK, if you're convinced that this is possible, why not ask the maker of the Benchmark DAC-1....also since DVD-A is 6 channel and the DAC-1 is only 2ch output were you planning on using 3 of the DAC-1s?

The ONLY way to do what you want is to modify the player. You might PM John Kotches, an AVS Forum member that had this modification done, but it ain't cheap to do...

The Benchmark DAC1 is a wonderful converter, and likely sounds much better than the analog outputs of the 3910 on redbook CDs, but it can only accept PCM signals. That is, it cannot accept a DTS signal nor a Dolby Digital signal, which must both be decoded by a chip not found in a D-to-A converter. By the way, no audio receiver needs an MLP decoder, since MLP is decoded in the player, which can pass reconstructed data to a receiver via HDMI, IEEE 1394, or a proprietary digital link such as DenonLink.

One of the best recording enginners arround uses three of the DAC1s to listen to his surround sound mixes, via three spdif interfaces.

The PCM signal that your Samsung outputs via digital coax when playing DVD-Audio's is not the high resolution source, but a downconvert of that source. Have you checked to see the sample size and bitrate of the PCM data coming over the coax and into the Benchmark DAC1 (before the DAC1 does anything with that data). I bet the Samsung is sending 16 bit/48 Khz or 16 bit / 44.1 Khz PCM data into the DAC1.

Page 18 of the Samsung 841 players manual clearly states that it will not pass high resolution LPCM or PPCM data digitally. If you have a DVD-Video disc that has a 96/24 stereo soundstream it will send that via Coax, but DVD-Audio discs will either get downconverted or not sent at all. Hires music and some other companies offer 96/24 stereo DVD's that are not really DVD-Audios, but rather use the DVD-Video spec. Those discs will have their data sent via coax or TOSLink.

SOWK if you want the 3910 to lower its standard similar to the Samsung level, Setup you 3910 as follows!!!:

Go to the SETUP MENU/GUI -> OTHER ("etc." tab, the end one) -> PLAYER MODE
Now make sure this setting is set to “VIDEO”, not ‘audio’.

Have the coax cable connected and the player setup to send out digital audio, as I am sure you already do.
Now play a DVD-Audio, like 'Eagles: Hotel California'

Voila!!

You will have the 3910 playing a DVD-Audio disc over coax. ;)

'Unfortunately' the signal will only be DD 5.1(or DTS if you set) but for you, it seems, the difference will be minimal :) (yet it still is probably better than anything the samsung will output)

cheers
KJ

Did anyone play a dvd +r disc on their denon 3910. Denon's website states it plays dvd +r but the owner's manual has no mention of it support.
Since I have a vested interest in playing dvd +r (home videos) that my current 3800 does not support I'm curious about the compatablity of playing these dvds.

regards,

ron

Hello there. I am new here so please forgive me for asking...need help in setting up my denon 2910 with 3805. I get no sound when I play dvd-a. I am using an optical connection only. Your help will be greatly appreciated

Originally posted by 645cntx
Hello there. I am new here so please forgive me for asking...need help in setting up my denon 2910 with 3805. I get no sound when I play dvd-a. I am using an optical connection only. Your help will be greatly appreciated

DVD-A will only come out of the 2910 via the 6-channel analog outputs. You'll need 3 pairs of L/R cables and hook them into your 3805's EXT IN jacks.

thank you for the reply and help in the matter. will do the cabling later today. I take it I will have to select the input source on the 3805 to ext in?
thank you again.

Have any of you hear of a 2 channel 192Khz DVD-audio disk! Hum. Im starting to think this fourm has no clue what there talking about.

No DVD-Audio is not only 6 channel, and if you think 6 channel is better then 2 channel your crazy.

But I will try what Krazykaj stated, and if it works thank you.

But the rest of you get your fac's stright.

I have DVD-A only disks that I was using witht the Samsung, and not DTS Digital music disks, so if you couldn't get your Samsung DVD-audio player to output DVD-A, then your an idiot! (Tom Grooms)
And need to hook things up properly!

If you have the DAC 1, then you got the 192Khz 2 Channel Audio Only DVD-A demo disk, and it worked just fine with my Samsung 841 dvd-player.

Also saying you work with this stuff mean nothing. I know significently more then the people working at our so called High-End stores in town. Just means you have a job, and a basic understanding of things, like, you put a Round disk in this thing and it plays it! haha!

Originally posted by 645cntx
thank you for the reply and help in the matter. will do the cabling later today. I take it I will have to select the input source on the 3805 to ext in?
thank you again.

You are correct. EXT IN will allow you to play SACD and DVD-A over the 6 analog cables.

http://benchmarkmedia.com/news/AIXinfo.htm

Tom, I have some of the AIX DVD-A. So to play the 192/24 tracks I need to switch to CD on my 3805, utilizing my 2 additional analog cables I presume.

Would I switch Source Direct "ON" on the 3910?

Thanks.

I was thinking of the AIX discs last night after I responded to SOWK. Good stuff, just not anywhere near enough of it.

Regarding the DAC-1, this quote pretty much summed it up for me, I looked at this unit awhile back but just didn't see how I could get much use out of it in my system.

"As others have noted and I also believe, even though we do provide 192 kHz capability, 192-kHz sample-rate seems to be a solution looking for a problem. Frankly, it all comes down to what we can hear… “what we can hear”… is a never-ending debate."

The Samsung will NOT send 192Khz/2 channel data over TOSlink or Coax. Look at the manual, it specifically states it DOWNCONVERTS such signals.

wxone - My 3910 plays my DVD+r and DVD+RW discs without problems.

I never said it output 192Khz, I just stated it would output the DVD-A signal through Digital Coax, and people are telling me it can't do it, and thats all Im asking for the Denon to do too. I understand to get 192 I have to go through Denon Digital link. I just want it to output the 192Khz signal as a 96khz through the Digital Coax, on the Denon!

Also look at my gallery, I know what high-end audio is about. In not some stupid punk kid thats new at this!

Sowk i think you are the one who is wrong. DVD-Audio will not go over the digital coax. ALso you say you nevere said it was doing 192 then what is this?

If you have the DAC 1, then you got the 192Khz 2 Channel Audio Only DVD-A demo disk, and it worked just fine with my Samsung 841 dvd-player.

Will someone tell Kevinca that you can send a DVD-Audio signal through Digital Coax, so I don't have to, as you people seem to think I have no Idea what I'm talking about!

Even though nothing I have said is wrong, and if it is write it back to me and prove it!

Besides my spelling Skillz! lol

Originally posted by SOWK
Will someone tell Kevinca that you can send a DVD-Audio signal through Digital Coax, so I don't have to, as you people seem to think I have no Idea what I'm talking about!

Even though nothing I have said is wrong, and if it is write it back to me and prove it!

Besides my spelling Skillz! lol

No 5.1 DVD-A signal, or 24/192khz stereo signal, or copy-protected 24/96 MLP signal is going to come out of your Samsung (or any other player's) digital coax output. You are mistaken.

If you wish to further continue disagreeing, I respectfully ask you stop discussing it in this thread and move it to a more appropriate thread or off line.

If the DVD-Audio disc's MLP track is selected, coaxial won't do. If DTS/DD track of the DVD-Audio disc is selected (if indeed there's such a choice available from the disc's menu) coaxial will do; but this is not a high-rez track. This is how I understand and I believe I am correct.

Sam, do you have a DVD-A player?

If you do, then guess, what get a flippin no copy protected disk like Santana supernatural DVD-A and play it in its stereo two channel mode, select your digital coax out, on your player, and select the proper input on the receiverif thats what your using, and tell me what the hell comes out then, as I can hear the music just fine!

And Santana supernatural DVD-Audio is only DVD-Audio 5.1 or 2 channel, no DTS/DD on the disk! OR CD tracks.

So please people try before you say anything else.



Also I am not talking about 5.1/or 6.1 I could care less for thoese formats.

I only care about the 2 channel witch you can send through Digital Coax!

Man, even read the link Tom Grooms just posted

http://benchmarkmedia.com/news/AIXinfo.htm

And read at the bottem....

Most players that provide a high-resolution digital output from non copy-protected discs, will force a 192-kHz recording’s sample-rate to down-sample to 96-kHz. From what we can tell, this is due to the fact that until recently the optical Toslink connectors that passed 96-kHz, would not pass 192-kHz. So, whether or not there is a companion coaxial output, most players generally force down-sampling with 192-kHz material.

However, we did find one inexpensive DVD-A player, the Panasonic DVD-S47, that will digitally output the full 24-bit, 192-kHz data. But, at this point in time, it appears the 192-kHz data is only available by way of the coaxial (RCA connector) digital output.

Now stop talkin stupid, and try before you talk again.

If this still doesn't make you think twice, then be happy with your current setup, and be ignorant that there is better sound out there. (Talking about the DAC) The Benchmark DAC 1 Sound Significently better as a dac then the 3910's internal Dac's.

But I will say DSD through the 3910 is pretty remarkible!

Originally posted by SOWK
And Santana supernatural DVD-Audio is only DVD-Audio 5.1 or 2 channel, no DTS/DD on the disk! OR CD tracks.

So please peopletry before you say anything else. You are a complete nut-job, and you should look in a mirror brfore calling anybody else names. Of COURSE there's a DD track on Supernatural. There's one on almost every DVD-A ever released. Stop hijacking this thread!

Thanks uzun! I will look for this player for tryout in my system.

regards,

ron

Larry, please.

I have said may times, I could care less for the 5.1 portions of DVD-A disks

This is about 2 Channel music, and what I am trying to tell people is you can send the 2 Channel DVD-A verson of Supernatural thru Digital Coax!

By the way this in the discrption of the disk from dvd empire

Audio:
MUSIC: Dolby Digital Surround

http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?site_id=12&olduserid=99364049609440&item_id=604080&userid=99364049609440&redir=1&login=1&logincheck=6922611812120023020051600

Originally posted by SOWK
Sam, do you have a DVD-A player?



Yes, I do. Again, I would ask you and others to move this discussion to a more appropriate thread, as many people are reading this thread in hopes of getting more information about the Denon DVD-3910 player.

Features:
Advanced Resolution Surround Sound
Advanced Resolution Stereo
"Day of Celebration" audio track
"Put Your Lights On" video
"Smooth" video
"Maria Maria" video
"Corazon Espinado" video
The Making of Supernatural
Lyrics
Bio
Photo Gallery
Weblinks

Also from DVD empire

Where does it say in here that the Advanced Resolution Surround Sound is Dolby Digital.

So your saying every mulit channel DVD-A has a DD track. haha I dont think so!

PLEASE!!!!!

let me do this you say point out what you say is wrong well heres another this is the second,

And Santana supernatural DVD-Audio is only DVD-Audio 5.1 or 2 channel, no DTS/DD on the disk! OR CD tracks

WRONG.

Features:
Advanced Resolution Surround Sound
Advanced Resolution Stereo
"Day of Celebration" audio track
"Put Your Lights On" video
"Smooth" video
"Maria Maria" video
"Corazon Espinado" video
The Making of Supernatural
Lyrics
Bio
Photo Gallery
Weblinks


Audio:
MUSIC: Dolby Digital Surround

Release Date: 4-13-2004

Packaging: Jewel Case

Item Code: 82876510549
UPC Code: 828765105491

Studio:
Arista (DVD-Audio)

DVD Year: 2004

Rating: NR

So, the 2 channel verson (Advanced Resolution Stereo
) is also Dolby Digital surround? haha

Wheres the listing for PCM 2 channel?

Looks like your wonderful site isn't always right!

heres some more.

DVD-Audio is a new format to deliver high-fidelity audio content on a DVD. It offers many channels (from mono to 5.1 surround sound) at various sampling frequencies and sample sizes. Audio on a disc can be 16, 20, or 24 bit and can be at sampling rates of 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz (the highest sampling rates of 176.4 and 192 kHz are limited to stereo only). In addition, different sampling sizes and frequencies can be used on a single disc. Audio is stored on the disc in LPCM format or is losslessly compressed with Meridian Lossless Packing. The DVD-Audio player may downmix surround sound to stereo if the listener does not have surround sound. DVD-Audio may also feature menus, still images, slideshows, and video. Also, DVD-Audio discs usually contain Dolby Digital or DTS versions of the audio (with lossy compression, usually downsampled to lower sampling sizes and frequencies) in the DVD-Video section. This is done to ensure compatibility with DVD-Video players.

The introduction of the DVD-Audio format angered many early-adopters of the DVD format. While the DVD-Audio discs do have higher fidelity, there is debate as to whether or not the difference is distinguishable to typical human ears. DVD-Audio currently forms a niche market, probably due to requiring new and rather expensive equipment. DVD-Audio is currently (as of 2003) in a format war with SACD. Most market observers believe the winner of the war will eventually supplant the Compact Disc due to its superior playback capabilities, unless a new and superior format takes over from either.

You were wrong admit it you are not listenoing to dvd audio period.

Originally posted by SOWK
Features:
Advanced Resolution Surround Sound
Advanced Resolution Stereo
"Day of Celebration" audio track
"Put Your Lights On" video
"Smooth" video
"Maria Maria" video
"Corazon Espinado" video
The Making of Supernatural
Lyrics
Bio
Photo Gallery
Weblinks

Also from DVD empire

Where does it say in here that the Advanced Resolution Surround Sound is Dolby Digital.

So your saying every mulit channel DVD-A has a DD track. haha I dont think so! I HAVE THE GOD-DAMNED DISC! I have listened to the DD track in 5.1 on my brother's non-DVD-A system. Why would it say that Advanced Resolution Sound is Dolby Digital anywhere? NOBODY here is claiming that. You are just setting up a straw man to prove a point that noone is arguing. You are a complete moron. Leave. :rolleyes:

SOWK, you are helping nobody, you are not even helping yourself. If you feel this strongly about DVD-A, please go somewhere else, or make a new thread as this is straying away from the 3910 and what others hope to read in this particuar thread.

You cannot pass true DVD-A hi-res audio over coax.

You can pass certain uncopyrighted down mixed signals, you can pass compressed signals (DD and DTS), and you can pass stereo PCM (same as that found on a normal CD) which is what I think you may confusing with.

But there is no point in continuing to argue, enough’s, is enough.

Do a bit of research, and find out a bit more before start to make claims as you have, have some sort of ‘proof’ other than yourself that this is occuring.

cheers
KJ
[EDIT] there may be some more helpful info here http://www.digitalaudioguide.com/faq/dvd-audio/faq_intro.htm

Where is the moderator!!!! :D

Hi,
I'm not a kid, and definately not what you (or SOWK) would call punk, but I will admit to being relatively "new at this" - so please bear with me, maybe this thread could use a bit of fresh air about now! :D

As some of you might remember from my posts over a couple of months ago, I recently set up my first HT system since High-School/College - when they were only called Stereo systems. I bought and somewhat successfully set-up the following system:

Display: Mits WD62725 DLP
AVR: Denon 3805
Amp: Harmon-Kardon Citation 16
DVD: Denon 3910
Speakers: Paradigm Studio 7.1 system w/ Hsu VTF-3 MK2 Sub

After all the trauma of research, listening, actually parting with $10K+, and connecting everything, I really have just sat back and enjoyed for a while. Now however, I have my breath back and need to start playing with things. I am noticing (and to my far greater chagrin - my friends and family are noticing and making rude comments about) some poor color adjustment. This is mainly most noticable on DVDs. Grass and trees that should be green look brown etc. I have the 3910 connected to the Mits via a HDMI cable from BlueJeans cable and am running sound to it via a digital coax from them also (in case I would want to use only the TV's speakers I guess). I have the 3910 connected to the 3805 via separates on EXT-IN again via good cables from the same company as per the 5900(3910)-3805 set-up article on Denon's website and quoted here. I am purchasing the Avia disk and may get the DVE disk also, so:

1. When using these disks, will I be using all of the various remotes to change settings on the TV, the 3910 AND the 3805??? (the first two components for video and the second two for audio adjustments?)

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, is it difficult not to have some settings cancel each other out from one unit to the other, of is that all covered in the Avia/DVE DVD?

3. Since I do not have a perfectly light controlled room, I would assume that these disks would need to be played and the appropriate changes made to settings only at night with other lights turned off - or is that too paranoid?

4. Yes, I have the digital RS SPL, but should I really use the disks to manually adjust the audio portion of my set-up? I used the 3805's microphone and auto-adjustment feature when I first set things up, and other than maybe wanting to boost the level of the surround speakers output a little, I think things sound pretty good - but then maybe I just don't know yet how much better it could sound - right?!?:confused:

Anyway, it's really the video portion that I really need to address/fix ASAP so I want to start with that!

Thanks for your input - this is a great forum!!:)

Paul

...Right here.

SOWK...Please note that your posts are not helping in this thread at all. You need to be more clear in what you are trying to debate and not attack as you have been. This is not a chat on 2 channel vs surround sound. Not at all.

Thank you.

I will try to answer your questions

1. Do these adjsutments on your tv.

2 They explain on avia that you may have to re adjust others to get it perfect just watch the explanations they are pretty good,

3 This again will be answered on the disk they tell you that you need to do the adjsutments to what ever is the lighting when you watch the tv the most.

4. I would leave the setting alone after using the mic but if you want you can adjust them if you want.

Thanks for your reply Kevinca1.

If the problem seems to show up the most on DVD's and not univerally on all inputs to the display, wouldn't making univeral setting changes on the display just make other input sources look worse - ie: fixing something that's not broke?

Also, it seems as if the 3910 has far more settings/configuration options for contrast, balance, hue, gamma etc. than the display does - so if the problem is mainly with DVD's wouldn't I use the Avia disk to 'properly' set-up the DVD player by itself after first using it to set up the display (DLP) 'properly' for Standard Def and High Def broadcast modes???

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just really hoping to understand!!!

Thanks!

Anybody else wanna chime in?

What is the firmware on the 3910 you have? if you do not know there is a part in this thread that tells you how to check or you can go to denons website go to cusotmer upgrade and put in your serial number and it will telll you if there is a updtae for your player.
http://www.usa.denon.com/support/upgrades.asp

Originally posted by Krazykaj
SOWK, you are helping nobody, you are not even helping yourself. If you feel this strongly about DVD-A, please go somewhere else, or make a new thread as this is straying away from the 3910 and what others hope to read in this particuar thread.

You cannot pass true DVD-A hi-res audio over coax.



Ok fine, I just wanted my questions answered, and you people are giving out wrong info.

So you are the one who is helping no one.


And yes you can pass 96Khz High-res audio over Digital Coax, if the DVD-A is not Copy Protected. Thank you very much!

I had ligitimate Questions, and you guys were like, didn't you ask that already? And No you can't send DVD-Audio over COAX at all. Both of witch are untrue!

So please, if I got the proper answer to begin with I would stop. I will try to use the only good answer I got from another member earlyier. The one were you set the player to Video mode, and not audio mode, to see if that works!


So where should I ask my question regarding the Denon 3910? In a different forum, because it has to do with audio? And im sorry I write back to people that give inaccurate information.

SOWK, start a new thread in "Audio Theory, Setup and Chat" and just ask, as a general question (forget the smasung and 3910), if there is any way that hi-res DVD-Audio can be outputted over a coax/toslink connection.
If conducted in a 'civilised' manner, i'm sure people would be more than happy to answer you and show you how/how not this can be achieved, and hopefully they will be able to answer you technically and to your satisfaction, seeing as we here have obviously not :)

cheers
KJ

as a by the way, is there some sort of list/document that has the exact updates/fixes in the new version 8 firmware for the 3910? what exactly did denon try to enhance, fix in this new release?

thanks

According to Denon, ESS6609-8 firmware "corrects Black Levels".

This is what it says it fixes.

Corrects for black level adjustment and range in normal mode.

instruction sheet for hdmi 1.1 update

yeah but it did not "fix" the failure of the Aug, Sept and Nov build units to pass a BTB signal as per DVE. :D

I'm pretty sure my player has an Aug build date, and it does pass BtB. I can't easily pull it out and check but as I recall mine had a build date of August.

When playing back 96Khz/24 bit material off of DVD-V format discs, such as those from HiResmusic, my 3910 passes the 96Khz material via Toslink/Coax. DVD-Audio material is a different matter, as it was with other DVD-Audio players I've tried as well.

if you can confirm the build date it might be useful. Perhaps Aug was the turning point so to speak. All 4 June builds reported thus far passed BTB. Yours will be the first post-June build to pass. Congratulations! :D

My player has a build date of Aug 2004, and it does pass BtB

Originally posted by mismatched
yeah but it did not "fix" the failure of the Aug, Sept and Nov build units to pass a BTB signal as per DVE. :D
...and October. Mine's an October build, and it will not pass BTB.

And FWIW, I was under the impression that, technically, DVD-Audio discs will sometimes pass 94/24 two-channel audio over coax, without downsampling. It depends on whether the "copy protect" flag is set--usually it is, but it doesn't absolutely have to be. Obviously, this doesn't apply to six-channel or 192KHz material.

--Paul Curtis

So August (exception: uzun), September October and November will not pass BTB. I will contact Denon next week and see if they have made any progress as to solving this mystery.

Still have 50 days to return mine!

My October built 3910 doesn't pass BTB from DVE.

Avia disk on its way - should be here Friday. Has anyone else hed much reason to do color adjustments on the 3910? Most posts in this thread indicate that everyone was very happy/excited about the color right out of the box. Is it like a very early post indicated that myself and my friends etc. just don't know what 'UnSuperSaturated' (my term, not the posters') grass and leaves should look like?? I've downtoned the default contrast settings on the DLP and regular and high def broadcast shows look pretty good without the high saturation - it's only on DVDs that the green tones look really brown/dull.

Anybody else with any answers to my earlier post, or would like to take a whack at this one?

Thanks,
Paul

I have no color problems at all when I use the player via component or DVI 480p. I cannot get the colors to be correct when I send a 720p or 1080i DVI signal to my display, because the display assumes any 720p or 1080i signal uses the high definition color space. This is a fault of the display. Greens are off, and I would have to adjust the color decoder drastically to try and get things right, even then I'm not sure it would be correct. While the problem is obvious when viewing the color bar displays, it's not always too apparent in actual movies. I can't say the colors looked WAY off when viewing movies with a 720p or 1080i signal on my display, but viewing the color adjustment patterns the problem was glaringly obvious.

It's the fault of the display, it assumes any high definition (720p/1080i) signal uses the high definition color space, when the data on a DVD uses the standard def color space. The display will not let me override that in any way, so colors are off on my display if a 720p/1080i signal containing standard def color space data is sent.

I suspect there are several displays that do this, you can easily tell by viewing the color bar patterns through a filter or after turning off your Red, Green or Blue guns and adjusting the color via the service menu on your set. When you send a 480p signal either DVI or component the colors will adjust fine, and closely match your other devices. When you send a 720p or 1080i signal, if your display is like mine, the greens will appear way off when you view the pattern to adjust the green (using a green filter or shutting off the other colors via service menu).

I've had my 3910 less than 3 weeks and haven't had the time to really dig into the menus and to use DVE on it. I also do not know what the build date is. I'll try and make the time this weekend to test for the BTB issue and check the build date and report back my findings. I am using v8 frimware.

As I posted earlier, my 3910 does not pass BTB and it has an October build date. I'm still trying to decide whether I should return it or not.

I would not return it until they resolve the problem as you will likely just get another one that also does not pass BTB (take jazzcat's experience as an example)! :D

Originally posted by VladDracul
As I posted earlier, my 3910 does not pass BTB and it has an October build date. I'm still trying to decide whether I should return it or not.

I feel the same way. Although it doesn't seem to be *that* big a deal to most, I have proven my set-up will pass BTB and the Denon 3910 brochure states it does, so for $1,500 it freaking well better! :)

I know what you mean. When I first posted about this issue more than a month ago, I thought I was the only one. I was pretty sure it was a manufacturing defect then and was buying my time for a return. Now I'm not so sure it is a manufacturing defect after all; and I'm hoping it is something that can be fixed via a firmware update. If Denon hears from most of us, they'll have to let us know sooner or later.

Originally posted by VladDracul
...... If Denon hears from most of us, they'll have to let us know sooner or later.

agree. let's continue to politely bug Denon about this problem.

A lot of 3910 users may not be following this thread due to it's length and variety of subjects (me). I started a poll/thread specific to the BTB issue because I am concerned about it. Folks who can participate, please go repeat or post your input there. Perhaps it will be a place to point Denon should the opportunity arise...

HTH, Scott

whooa

competing polls!! :D

We can send both links to Denon. :D :D

Actually having a consolidation of the BTB poll results would be a nice way to more easily drive home to Denon the problem. Scott--You might want to post the actual link to facilitate your poll's comprehensiveness (is that a word??)

mismatched

I tried reading back a ways in this thread but I can't find a pattern. I had a 3910 for a week last October and it worked fine via DVI. Is the new BTB problem component, DVI, and HDMI? 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i? Unless it's all outputs and all resolutions, wouldn't it help to be more specific in the poll?

larry

I requested those details in my "poll" within this thread. A good idea for Scotthorton to do likewise. there seems to be no patterns regarding connections or resolution setting. Some have tried different settings, e.g. IRE = 0 vs = 7.5, some have tried different connections. Some have tried getting a new player, in vain (sorry jazzcat!).

but having as much info in this "formal" poll started elsewhere by Scott is a good idea pooperscooper! :)

mismatched

PS do you think that Denon is putting as many person hours into solving this problem as we are "creating" it ??? ya think... :D

Just aside, speaking of polls and things, I wonder how much Denon (or any other company for that matter) actually use sites like this for feedback on their products, to see what is good, and what is faulty, or poorly designed?
How much do they actually watch discussions like this, to see what needs to be done in the future, or to fix current products? Do they use sites like this, and easy source of info, to find out really what we, the consumers who make them their money :), really want, what we would buy and what we value in a product?
If I ran a business in their field, I’d have people dedicated to getting the info you guys are putting out!
I mean, the amount of man hours and testing that goes on here with their products would be invaluable information for product development and testing, and not only that, it is free! :)

Sorry if this is a tad off topic, I might post this question in another thread. I just thought it was an interesting thought :)

Cheers
KJ

Originally posted by mismatched
...post the actual link to facilitate your poll's comprehensiveness...
Yes, it's a word...:D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=513507

Jason

Originally posted by mismatched
Scott--You might want to post the actual link to facilitate your poll's comprehensiveness (is that a word??) Here you go:

BTB poll link here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5233973#post5233973)

re details... I'll edit the original post and ask for them as you suggest.

Update: Original edited and detail request appended. Also added info on Avia, what to say if you don't care, and how to get FW version so folks just hitting thread don't ahve to go look.

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by jazzcat
I feel the same way. Although it doesn't seem to be *that* big a deal to most, I have proven my set-up will pass BTB and the Denon 3910 brochure states it does, so for $1,500 it freaking well better! :)

Relax and watch a movie. While you are watching the movie, don't think about the blacker than black that you wouldn't see anyway. Enjoy the movie, seeing everything you are supposed to see, and exactly the same black detail you would have had with your 2910.

While I can understand following up and being interested in a solution to the issue, try to relax. It does not affect your DVD viewing in any measurable or perceptible manner.

FWIW, I think Steve's right. If it's (the PJ) is properly adjusted *you* will clip the BTB. Dosen't matter who does it, your proper adjustment or the DVD processing. I don't think. Then again, mine is passing it so that's easy for me to say. :D

I agree with Steve Martin totally. Forget all this BLB issue, the unit out of the box will reward you with great DVD PQ and sound. Don't be so enhanced !!!!! Just enjoy the great PQ and sound.
rick

Everyone is right. Why should I complain about a $1,500 player that does not pass BTB. Even though the Denon brochure says it will pass BTB. Must be my display after all even though the pics I posted clearly shows that a June build 3910 does pass BTB on my display. As did my lowly 2910. Call me feeble and stupid but I found it quite easy to adjust brightness using that as a reference point. I am not an ISF genious so I can't use other patterns to figure out how to adjust the brightness when I can't see the BTB pluge pulse. Shame on me...

It's amusing that people complain that the "ON" light on some components distracts them from watching a movie because it's not the right color or is too bright. But they can live with the fact that their "Grand Slam" player can't pass BTB. I even PM'ed Kris Deering about this problem and he dismissed it saying that there is no way I got 2 3910's that could not pass BTB. Well the fact is that I did. And there are others that can't pass it either. I really don't care that I can enjoy a movie based on the 3910 not passing BTB. That is not the point. It's a matter of principle.

Enough of this rambling. Wonder if a $49 Apex will pass BTB. Maybe I'll go to Sams this weekend and find out.

"Enhanced" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If the display in question holds black (which jazzcat's does) it is not an issue.

But, if your display does not hold black (as is common on CRT based RPTV's and Samsung DLP's with DNIe turned on) the black level on the display can float upward on darker scenes which would reveal blacker than black. If it is there, you see things you shouldn't, but if it isn't the picture will look odd, as you will see the hard clipping.

Bottom line is that BTB protects you from seeing hard clipping if you have a display that doesn't hold black properly. jazzcat has a Samsung DLP which does so it isn't an issue for him, but it may well be for others.

Cheezmo, you posted while I was compiling that snooty post above. Nothing against anyone here. I watched a great DVD last night on the 3910 and had no issues with it. Just a little miffed that this player can't display the BTB pluge pulse.

That is my only issue. Some can and some can't. How is that possible?

Of course they can deal with it not passing BTB. It doesn't affect the picture. Why should they be bothered by it.

As I said, pursue it, get it dealt with, but just realize it isn't going to improve your viewing experience so try not to get too worked up over it.

I can relate to your obsession to get it resolved, but I was just trying to encourage you too take a little time off from your obsession and just enjoy it.

Cheezmo

You got a point but I guess that we still have time to watch a great looking movie and stir the pot. We's got too much time!!!

Now you say above that because I have a Samsung DLP, 5674 beauty to be exact, I can just float above all this BTB crap because my Sammy will not float?? Cool!! :D

Originally posted by Cheezmo
If the display in question holds black (which jazzcat's does) it is not an issue.

But, if your display does not hold black (as is common on CRT based RPTV's and Samsung DLP's with DNIe turned on) the black level on the display can float upward on darker scenes which would reveal blacker than black. If it is there, you see things you shouldn't, but if it isn't the picture will look odd, as you will see the hard clipping.

Bottom line is that BTB protects you from seeing hard clipping if you have a display that doesn't hold black properly. jazzcat has a Samsung DLP which does so it isn't an issue for him, but it may well be for others.
This is precisely my situation. My Panasonic CRT does not hold black, so I must use the high-average PLUGE for setting black level...and during the darker scenes, I'd much rather see that <16 picture information than to have a washed-out image with everything clipped right at 16. Considering that I spent $1299 on this bastard--and considering that Denon's promotional literature specifically advertises the 3910's ability to pass BTB--I'm not about to be fobbed off with blithe assurances that it "doesn't really matter."

--Paul Curtis

There is a 3910 review here (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonDVD3910Review1.php) with an interesting quote on page 2:

"Make sure that if you are matching this player with a capable display you enable Enhanced HDMI/DVI Black Level. This will allow digital RGB black levels from 0 (black) - 246 (white) instead of only 16 - 235 IRE, resulting in the capability to reproduce 'blacker than black' content."

This is contrary to the "Secrets" report on the 3910:

"The 3910 is based on the same video circuit as the DVD-5900. It uses the same ESS Vibrato II MPEG decoder and the Faroudja FLI-2310 de-interlacer/scaler chips. Denon has dropped the BNC component outputs, but added an HDMI output to compliment the DVI output that is also present. This was a great move. Most HDMI players out there re-map the RGB output to PC levels when they are converted to DVI. By offering both outputs on the same unit, this eliminates the problem. The video output can be selected in the setup menu for either PC RGB levels or Studio RGB levels. Unless your display is set up for PC RGB levels, we always recommend using the studio RGB output which allows for below-black and above-white information. Like the DVD-5900, this selection is called black level enhancement. With the enhancement setting “ON”, you are using PC levels. With it “OFF”, you are using Studio levels. There is also an IRE setting for 7.5 or 0 in the picture setting menu for the analog outputs."

But I wonder if this is in some way related to whether or not BTB is being passed?

IE, if "Enhanced" is not really RGB remapped output of 0-254 but instead allows passing of BTB and WTW with black still being at 16 this would explain a lot.

Hey, if my player didn't pass BTB (and it may not, I don't have a PLUGE pattern to test it), I would be pissed, too! Especially if I had upgraded from the $650 2910 that did pass BTB. If the 3910 is supposed to do this, for $1500 it damn well better. I don't think that it's obsessing or perseverating or pissing and moaning, it's getting the features that you expected and paid for!

Jazzcat...be pissed off about this. Sure the PQ is awesome and the SQ is unbelievable, but if you 3910 doesn't do what it's supposed to do, you have the right to be upset about it. Yeah, you can enjoy a DVD or two while waiting for Denon to address this growing issue (hopefully soon!), but get all soft and complacent on us! :D

Jason

LOL Jason, want to borrow my DVE? Warning: Ignorance may be bliss! :D

I'm chicken to upgrade my FW now :D. Anyone have a copy of version **2**? I assume you can't backup the existing FW in the process of doing an upgrade, let me know if you can.

Did anyone experience a BTB behavior change when they changed FW?

Thanks,
Scott

Originally posted by scotthorton
I'm chicken to upgrade my FW now :D. Anyone have a copy of version **2**? I assume you can't backup the existing FW in the process of doing an upgrade, let me know if you can.

Did anyone experience a BTB behavior change when they changed FW?

Thanks,
Scott

Interesting that you have an August build date and -2 firmware. My August build had -5. But... people that can pass BTB have done the most recent firmware upgrade and still pass BTB so I really don't think upgrading the firmware would affect your player's ability to pass BTB.

I just read (sorta skimmed) the 3910 review at Audioholics via the link at the top of the AVS home page. Two things: They said they tested with "black level enhance" ON. I can't remember, but is that the 0 IRE vs 7.5 IRE setting or PC vs video RGB levels? They said the player passed BTB, so I'm guessing it was not PC video. The other thing I thought really strange was that they used 1080i into a native 720p PJ HDMI/DVI for their tests. :confused: Who would do that in their setup?? :)

Also, I just noticed this in the review: "Make sure that if you are matching this player with a capable display you enable Enhanced HDMI/DVI Black Level. This will allow digital RGB black levels from 0 (black) - 246 (white) instead of only 16 - 235 IRE, resulting in the capability to reproduce "blacker than black" content." Chris Wiggles will burst a blood vessel if he sees this. :D

larry

Originally posted by Scott....
Did anyone experience a BTB behavior change when they changed FW?

I am pretty sure that my 3910 was passing BTB when I had firmware *-6 because that's how I calibrated my display and also had written down all settings. Once I upgraded to firmware *-8, it no longer passes BTB even if I switch back to *-5 or *-6. I have no explanation how this can happen but this is what I observed on my unit.

So if you don't have any BTB (or any other) issue with your current firmware, better wait till this is sorted out (hopefully in next firmware upgade) before going for a firmware upgrade.

Originally posted by jazzcat
Interesting that you have an August build date and -2 firmware. My August build had -5. I agree, thus my concern on upgrading. I double checked the mfg date sticker on the back, and the FW version. The initial screen's number ended in "-2" so I believe that's version 2.

In the same system info menu/display it has a build day and some other info. I'll post that, maybe we can gather some insight from comparing build days.

Scott, as was explained to me earlier, there may have been a hardware change at some point that caused this. If so, it may be difficult to release a firmware upgrade that would rectify this situation.

On a different subject - aspect ratio control...

DVD output via DVI, upscaled to 720p by the 3910:

When I had my 3910 hooked up to a Optoma H77 and played a 4x3, non-16x9 disc (i.e. Avia), I thought I got a non-stretched screen, that is, it displayed correctly at 4x3, 1.33:1, bars on the sides of my 16x9 display.

I sold my H77 and now I've tried a couple other PJ's and they both display the 1.33.1 material stretched to 1.78:1 (16x9).

I can't tell if it's the PJ or the 3910 doing the stretching.

Can anyone confirm if the 3910's upscaled output via DVI stretches 4:3 material to 16x9? I mention the Avia DVD as an example since it's 4:3.

Thanks,
Scott

regarding BTB and firmware 6 vs 8 I could swear (and I often do :D) that at least one person participating on this thread claimed that their 3910 could not pass a BTB signal with either firmware installed. correct me if I am wrong.

PS or at least they tried -8 and another version but I am not sure which other version.

Hmmmm... looks like this BTB topic is not going away despite Cheezmo's and other folks efforts to put minds at ease about this BTB ability to impact the picture. ;) IMO, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

If you want to get really technical about it, people can start comparing the DRV, "Make Date" and other data listed when you check the firmware via the front panel.

Originally posted by PooperScooper
The other thing I thought really strange was that they used 1080i into a native 720p PJ HDMI/DVI for their tests. :confused: Who would do that in their setup?? :)

larry

Perhaps you didn't see this part of the review:

Comments on HQV Testing
We had a very interesting time running the Silicon Optix HQV tests and ran into several interesting anomalies that we would like to note in an effort to make sure you get the best possible performance out of this player. First off, it's important to remember that each display device is different, and some displays will fare better at different output resolutions than others. When using the DVI or HDMI outputs of the DVD-3910, be sure to experiment with different output formats to arrive at the best possible setting. An example of this is that we first began testing the player using 720p in conjunction with a Yamaha LPX-510 3LCD projector (1280 x 720 resolution). During the Film Detail test, the player could not seem to lock on and eliminate the moiré pattern from the scene quickly or consistently. Switching the DVI output to 1080i immediately rectified this problem and resulted in a perfect Passing score.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
They were using a LCD display for their tests. The LCD may infact display PC information (0-246), not 16-235.

Dave

Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only folks that might have a concern with the BTB issue are people using CRT type displays, as digital doesn't display, or hold, that information anyway?

Thanks, K_Thompson, I did miss that in my skim. So, they did try the obvious first.

Keenan,
Head and toe room are needed for accurate scaling, dithering, etc processing. Also, most displays show BTB when you turn up the brightness. If not, you would not see the DVE bars and be able to calibrate. eg. setting black to be the lowest/blackest your display can show. This is why you shouldn't see BTB on digital displays, unlike CRTs that can't turn "off" as fast. Maybe this is what you meant, but it wasn't clear. :) Bottom line is that if a player is clipping head and toe room, it is not showing you what is on the disc - so what good is it?

larry

I agree with Larry there. It may be that if properly adjusted you don't really need it, but when it comes to adjusting brightness, I think it's awhole lot easier and more accurate when using the BTB bars than the " 'till you almost see them" bars. I'm much more comfortable having the BTB display than not. Especially on a player in this price range. I got mine purely for DVD upscaling via DVI, not audio features. I expect it to do everthing that can possibly be done with the DVD format. That includes all remote comands and flexibility, and all video processing, including passing BTB.

Just wish we knew the cause/solution so I could be comfy upgrading my FW. Has anyone gotten anything positive or encouraging out of Denon?

My August Build machine (that passes BtB) came with -2 firmware from the factory, if that's helpful in any way.

Originally posted by uzun
My August Build machine (that passes BtB) came with -2 firmware from the factory, if that's helpful in any way. uzun: That is helpful (or encouraging) to me. What FW do you have now, and what FW path did you take to get it there (i.e. what other versons did you have if any).

Do you mind posting the rest of your system info screens? I'll post mine this evening when I get home. Mine also has a Aug build and has never been flashed yet - also has ver 2 now.

Thanks,
Scott

My August 2004 player is passing BTB perfectly (using Digital Video Essentials DVD). I have the -5 firmware installed for region-free playback.

I purchased my 3910 from Crutchfield in late January of this year and it came with firmware -2 installed from the factory. I immediately upgraded to -5 firmware (found somewhere in this thread). It's one month later, and I've never looked back.

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Head and toe room are needed for accurate scaling, dithering, etc processing. Also, most displays show BTB when you turn up the brightness. If not, you would not see the DVE bars and be able to calibrate. eg. setting black to be the lowest/blackest your display can show. This is why you shouldn't see BTB on digital displays, unlike CRTs that can't turn "off" as fast. Maybe this is what you meant, but it wasn't clear. :) Bottom line is that if a player is clipping head and toe room, it is not showing you what is on the disc - so what good is it?

larry

Larry, that has been my whole argument, but based on the responses I got both on-line and off, that is totally wrong. No one needs to see BTB with my display to get everything perfect. So according to several here on this board, BTB is unnecessary and just not needed in certain cases, even though I could see DVE BTB pulse on a 2910 and a June build 3910 on my display.

Originally posted by PooperScooper

Keenan,
Head and toe room are needed for accurate scaling, dithering, etc processing.

larry

Yes, this whole issue of BTB can get confusing, in fact there are whole threads here devoted to discussing it.

I do think that folks here should mention what display they are using with regard to the BTB "problem" though as many digital displays do not do well in that area..

So jazzcat are you really saying that now we should just let Denon off the hook???!!! :D

Originally posted by mismatched
So we let Denon off the hook???!!! :D Hope not. If for no other reason it ought to be there as an optional feature at this price point.

Originally posted by keenan
Yes, this whole issue of BTB can get confusing, in fact there are whole threads here devoted to discussing it.

I do think that folks here should mention what display they are using with regard to the BTB "problem" though as many digital displays do not do well in that area..

or me no pass with a Samsung 5674 DLP set. But as jazzcat will attest to, the problem is the two 3910 units he has tested and NOT the 74 series Samsung DLPs!

Originally posted by mismatched
So jazzcat are you really saying that now we should just let Denon off the hook???!!! :D

Go to your room :p

I do think that folks here should mention what display they are using with regard to the BTB "problem" though as many digital displays do not do well in that area..
Yes. There's a few that only accept PC video levels via DVI and the only way to calibrate them properly is to set the player to PC video - and not see BTB on the test discs.

larry

Sent this, awaiting reply:

Mr. McGuiness,
My Denon 3910 DVD player built in October 2004 doesn't pass the Blacker Than Black PLUGE pattern. Although this can be worked around, its much easier to calibrate my projector if my DVD player passes BTB. It states in the manual that the 3910 does pass BTB. Please advise.

Thanks,
Martin Butler

Great! Based on my interactions, mostly, he will initially advise you to update to firmware *-8; and once you say you already have it, he'll say the issue is under review.

Originally posted by jigesh
Great! Based on my interactions, mostly, he will initially advise you to update to firmware *-8; and once you say you already have it, he'll say the issue is under review.

I can firmly ditto the "jigesh" experience!! :D

My 3910 has a build date of September 2004. It is connected to a CRT based RPTV via component cables. Output is set at 480p. My unit will not display the BTB bars on the DVE pluge test pattern.

BTW, other then being able to set the black level to Enhanced or Normal on the DVI/HDMI setup screen (which is useless to me) is there a way to adjust the black level for the analog component outputs? I haven't been able to find it.

On the 3910/2910 I think its in the 'Picture Adjust' menu and then the Set submenu. You can change the IRE setting there between 0 & 7.5.

There is no "Picture Adjust" menu on the 3910. If you go into the on-screen setup menus there is a "Video Setup" section, but there are no settings for black level there. The "Picture Mode" menu accessible from the front panel of the 3910 only lets you select different memory settings.

Thanks anyway,
Ken

Originally posted by K_Thompson
There is no "Picture Adjust" menu on the 3910. If you go into the on-screen setup menus there is a "Video Setup" section, but there are no settings for black level there.

Yes there is.

Press "Picture Adjust" on your remote. Scroll all the way to the right, press "Set", then "Set up level" lets you adjust black level for 7.5 or 0 IRE.

Yes, I figured it out just a few minutes ago. I had forgotten about that button on the remote since I don't use it. I have a universal remote programmed to control the 3910s main functions.

Thanks,
Ken

P.S. I set the black level to 0 (default is 7.5) as recommended my Kris Deering, but that seems very dark on my CRT RPTV. Is anyone else using 0 on a CRT display?

0 IRE should be the correct setting for 480p and CRT TV. You should adjust your TV set's brightness to compensate.

Has anyone experienced a green push with their 3910 via HDMI? I have my 3910 (firmware -5, region-free) hooked up to my Panasonic TH-42PWD7UY via HDMI and there is a noticeable green tint/push when watching DVDs.

I never noticed the green push when using the factory installed firmware-2. But region-free -5 firmware seems to exacerbate the green push on my Panasonic plasma.

Does the newer -8 firmware fix the green tint/push for anyone?

As I stated earlier in this thread, when my display sees a signal that's 720p or 1080i it assumes it uses the HD colorspace, resulting in odd color balance especially of greens. I have not been able to notice much with actual movies, but the problem is quite apparent via color adjustment patterns.

I suspect many displays assume data incoming at 720p and/or 1080i uses HD colorspace, when DVD's actually use SD colorspace. On many displays this will result in inaccurate colors. I have a feeling a LOT of people with upconverting DVD players have this problem, but never notice it. I don't know of any fix other than to send the data at 480p or see if your display lets you force a certain colorspace in some menu someplace.

Oh my... I think I have read about the first 15 or so pages of this thread and then decided to eventually buy the Denon 3910 on the basis of those posts and my setup.

However, now, I am at least in doubt as to whether or not I should do that???

First, I have a CRT based HDTV using component HDTV connections at 1080i.
Second, it now seems like the audio has also been found as glitchy as well.
Finally, the price has wonderously increased by $200 for this faulty unit????

I have a Pioneer 64 inch HDTV and am wondering if this Denon unit will offer me anything more than my current Denon 1600 for movies?

Anyway... is this new, expensive component worth the extra trouble and major cost???

Originally posted by uzun
As I stated earlier in this thread, when my display sees a signal that's 720p or 1080i it assumes it uses the HD colorspace, resulting in odd color balance especially of greens. I have not been able to notice much with actual movies, but the problem is quite apparent via color adjustment patterns.

I suspect many displays assume data incoming at 720p and/or 1080i uses HD colorspace, when DVD's actually use SD colorspace. On many displays this will result in inaccurate colors. I have a feeling a LOT of people with upconverting DVD players have this problem, but never notice it. I don't know of any fix other than to send the data at 480p or see if your display lets you force a certain colorspace in some menu someplace.

As a matter of fact, my Panny is ED not HD. So maybe 480p will be better for me. Thanks for the tip.

I'll report my findings at a later time...

My 3910 (firmware -8) is connected to a Toshiba 52HM84 via HDMI with 1080i upscaling. After adjusting with Avia, I did notice a green push with the movies I have tried. The solution I have used is to slightly modify the 3910 settings (sorry, Kris !) and bump the Tint in one of the memory settings by +1. Works very well for me. Not a huge difference, but enough to get rid of the annoying green push.

Despite the little quirks, I love this player. And I have followed and read this thread from the very first post.

Paul.

Originally posted by pbir
My 3910 (firmware -8) is connected to a Toshiba 52HM84 via HDMI with 1080i upscaling. After adjusting with Avia, I did notice a green push with the movies I have tried. The solution I have used is to slightly modify the 3910 settings (sorry, Kris !) and bump the Tint in one of the memory settings by +1. Works very well for me. Not a huge difference, but enough to get rid of the annoying green push.

Despite the little quirks, I love this player. And I have followed and read this thread from the very first post.

Paul.

Paul,

Did you notice any change in green push by switching between HDMI Y-Pb-Pr and HDMI RGB? I tried it myself and found HDMI RGB to be more satisfying (no green push). But it could be my eyes playing tricks on me.

That makes sense. If the DVD player does the decoding and sends RGB to the display, the display won't be playing any part in the color decoding so couldn't apply the wrong color decoding.

Just because the misuse of terminology is bugging me, a slight terminology tangent...

Color space = The actual range of color produced by the display. Where each primary/secondary color is. HD and SD have different specifications for this, but very few if any consumer displays can actually adjust this (Samsung HLP RPTV's are one exception). Even so, they typically can only be set one way. This has nothing to do with red or green push, it simply defines the range of colors the display is capable of. In CRT's this is usually fixed based on the colors produced by the CRT phosphors. In DLP's typically by the color filters, etc.

Color decoding = How color information transmitted by NTSC or component video is decoded. This is where red push, green push, etc. can be introduced. There are different equations for decoding HD color vs. SD color. Apply the wrong one, and you have the problems people are seeing here. In component video there are 3 wires, one with luminance (unplug the other 2 and you get a black and white picture), one with red difference information and one with blue difference information. There are equations for computing how saturated R/G/B should be given the 3 values. Those equations differ for HD and SD. If the signal is sent RGB between the source and the display, the decoding has already been done by the source, otherwise the decoding is done in the display.

So, please reference improper color decoding for SD vs. HD. The color space is really not the issue.

Originally posted by Cheezmo
That makes sense. If the DVD player does the decoding and sends RGB to the display, the display won't be playing any part in the color decoding so couldn't apply the wrong color decoding.

Steve,

So does this mean if you use an upsampling DVD player sending 720p or 1080i via DVI (always RGB, right?) your display will always show the proper colorspace? i.e. there's no chance of changing the DVDs SD colorspace to HD because the set can't do anything with RGB?

Originally posted by merc
I have a Pioneer 64 inch HDTV and am wondering if this Denon unit will offer me anything more than my current Denon 1600 for movies?

Anyway... is this new, expensive component worth the extra trouble and major cost???

I have a Pioneer Elite 920 and use the Denon 1600 for movies as well. Was considering an upgrade - worth it or wait?

Rieper,

I can't say I see a difference between HDMI Y-Pb-Pr and HDMI RGB. I'll try again later today, when it is dark.

Paul.

Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
Steve,

So does this mean if you use an upsampling DVD player sending 720p or 1080i via DVI (always RGB, right?) your display will always show the proper colorspace? i.e. there's no chance of changing the DVDs SD colorspace to HD because the set can't do anything with RGB?

That should be the case. In an RGB signal, the color decoding has already been done so the display shouldn't have to mess with it. That is why many TV's have color and tint disabled on RGB inputs.

Originally posted by pbir
Rieper,

I can't say I see a difference between HDMI Y-Pb-Pr and HDMI RGB. I'll try again later today, when it is dark.

Paul. You probably won't see a difference unless somehow the player is sending 10bit YCbCr (YPbPr is component analog output) and the display can handle and display 10bit color. DVDs are encoded in 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0 so there's no 10bit data source anyway. If 10bit is being used, it's interpolated. Now, if the display processes video in higher than 8bit and can display 10 or 12bit color, then you may see less contouring than strict 8bit output. However, this would also be true if you sent 8bit RGB.

larry

I don't think he is looking for contouring differences. He is looking for color decoding differences. With RGB, the player would be doing the color decoding, with component the TV would be doing the color decoding. There could clearly be differences, especially if one was using SD equations and one was using HD equations.

Okay, here are my findings:

After careful observation, I still see the green push. Even when switching between HDMI Y Pb Pr and HDMI RGB. The green push is a bit better using HDMI RGB though, but not to my satisfaction.

I took the suggestion of a previous post, and changed the hue in the 3910 picture adjust memory settings for M1. I now have hue as +1 which adds more red at the expense of green. But this added a bit of red push, so I had to lower the chroma to -1 in order to remove the green push and keep red in check.

I've found the perfect DVD for checking green tint:

Terminator 2: Extreme Edition

On disc 1, Chapter 15, 26m:20s; notice the back of the black actor's head (Joe Morton). As he turns around and walks towards the vault/chamber I notice a VERY distinct green tint to his hair. This particular scene is in the lab and there is heavy blue lighting EVERYWHERE. There shouldn't be any green lights. Yet, I still see the green tint on Joe Morton's shoulders and the back of his head. Almost as if there were a green lamp behind him.

After changing the hue and chroma in the 3910 picture adjust menu, I am satisfied.

I'll be interested to hear what others have to say about this green push.

FWIW, I'm still using region-free firmware -5 which I find invaluable because of my rather large collection of Region 2 DVDs. I still cannot say whether the newer -8 firmware may fix the green push I experienced.

It's problematic to use material in a movie to adjust your color, unless you are positive what the intended look of the scene is for certain.

It's far more reliable to use color decoder test patterns designed to calibrate color decoders over a range of frequencies, such as those present on the DVE or AVIA discs. Adjust your color decoder using these test patterns to achieve reliable, accurate color balance. You will probably have to use the service menu on your display to adjust the Red, Green and/or blue levels independently of one another.

so remind me Cheezmo, what type of HDMI connection from my 3910 do you recommend to my Samsung 5674 DLP?

thanks

mismatched

Without testing both, I can't say for sure, but it sounds like the RGB setting has the best chance of having the correct color decoding based on what I've been hearing.

Hi all

Check out my settings on my PJTX100 to eliminate the green cast.

My post here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5248138#post5248138)

As you can see I had to really adjust my green down to get a good pic.

I am connected via DVI so I guess the player is producing the green tint.

Thank goodness the PJ has these adjustments or it would have had to go back.

I may get this setup adjusted/professionally calibrated after my upcoming interstate move as there is a fellow in Perth that is renowned for his calibrations.

J

Using grayscale adjustment (where you turned down green) to compensate for color decoding errors is an ugly bandaid to say the least. I'm glad that you find the results pleasing, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near accurate.

How do black and white movies look? I would expect that they have a rather magenta cast to them.

We've suffered with red push to compensate for overly blue grayscales for years, what you are doing sounds like the same thing, you are making your grayscale magenta to compensate for green push in the color decoding.

It would be really beneficial for someone to take a color analyzer and test patterns to one of these setups to see what is really going on.

I don't think there's a way to address the underlying problem that many displays use HD equations for all HD signals regardless of whether the incoming data uses HD or SD color space. The only thing you could do is adjust the color decoder to compensate, but it would ruin color balance for all your "normal" sources, unless your color decoder has separate adjustments for each input. Then you could "screw up" your HDMI/DVI input to compensate for the color space differences, without throwing off your component and i.Link sources.

On most displays the color decoder settings are global, however. So basically I'm not sure how anyone is able to watch 720p and 1080i DVD material and have the colors appear correct, unless most sets let you choose what color space to use for 720p and 1080i sources from a given input.

So all you people out there with upconverting DVD players, who use them at 720p or 1080i, how do you get the color decoder on your display to accept the data and render it accurately? Do most displays let you choose the color space? I strongly suspect a lot of people simply don't notice the problem, and in fact watch these upconverted DVD's with innaccurate color rendition.

In my opinion upconverting DVD players should translate the data from SD to HD color space before sending it on to the display device, but to my knowledge none do this.

Originally posted by uzun
.........So all you people out there with upconverting DVD players, who use them at 720p or 1080i, how do you get the color decoder on your display to accept the data and render it accurately? Do most displays let you choose the color space?

Ahhh, DUH!? :D

Originally posted by mismatched
Ahhh, DUH!? :D

Real constructive!!

Funny though :D

I'm going to suss out the color space adjustments and see if one of these fixes this issue.
Pretty sure I have tried them already though.

J

I have to agree with those noticing a green push or green bias. I never noticed this until I watched Collateral this weekend. The scenes inside of the taxi cab really show the problem. Their is a slight improvement over HDMI using RGB but it is still very noticeable.

I have some AIX DVD-A hi res discs and some tracks are 192/24 bit Stereo. I noticed in the 3910 manual, page 13, it shows a chart for input vs output. With LPCM "OFF", it shows outputting 96/24 PCM and when switched to "ON" it shows 48/16 PCM with an input of 192/24.

So the 3910 does not output 192/24? Does any DVD-A player?

Jazzcat i know the 3910 does this. i have the 3805 and it shows it is outputting it via denon link.

I recently sent this email to Jim McGuinness at Denon - New Jersey regarding the blacker than black issue:

Hi,

I understand you are the one to speak to if my Denon DVD-3910 does not pass blacker than black. I used Digital Video Essentials to test for this and as unable to see the below black bars on the pluge test pattern - even with the brightness on my display (a CRT based rear projection TV) turned all the way up. The player is set at 480p using the component video connection. The build date on my unit is September 2004 and it is running firmware version 8. My previous player - a Kenwood DV-5900M mega changer - was able to pass backer than black with no trouble so I know it is not a problem with my display.

Thanks for your attention,
Ken Thompson



This was his response:

Dear Ken,

This problem has been noted and is under review. Our understanding so far is the digital video is ok but the problem resides with component connection. Pease check back with us in the near future as to the results of the review.

Best Regards,

J. McGuinness

Denon Electronics (USA), LLC

19C Chapin Road, Suite 205

Pine Brook, N.J. 07058-9385


I was under the impression that the issue affected the digital video connections as well as the analog. Am I mistaken?

Ken, Many of us have stated that we are using DVI. I even tried it with component and it didn't pass BTB there either.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe you ought to reply back and tell him they are mistaken...

Originally posted by kevinca1
Jazzcat i know the 3910 does this. i have the 3805 and it shows it is outputting it via denon link.

kevinca1, does it actually say 192/24 on the display? I was using EXT IN to the 3805. Sounded very good but the explaination in the manual confused me.

That's what I thought. It seems like Mr. McGuinness doesn't really know what he's talking about. Which is a shame because that makes it less likely this issue will be resolved.:(

Yes it does. i Played the eagles hotel california one, Like i said a am using the denon link.

Originally posted by jazzcat
Ken, Many of us have stated that we are using DVI. I even tried it with component and it didn't pass BTB there either.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe you ought to reply back and tell him they are mistaken...

I just did. It will be interesting to see if he backpedals on his original comments now.

Ken

I am using HDMI to my Samsung 5674 and cannot pass BTB. I guess these guys at Denon dont read our thread or our emails carefully. Or perhaps a breakdown in communication at Denon between McGuiness and the production people??

mismatched

Maybe we need to get the email addresses of the production people??

yeah sure!!!

Originally posted by jazzcat
I have some AIX DVD-A hi res discs and some tracks are 192/24 bit Stereo.

Which ones? All mine indicate 96/24...

All of my AIX discs have the 192 stereo layer, im sure yours do too. The 3910 outputs two channel 192/24 via analog and ieee 1394 (PIO VSX-56TXi). Dont have a Denon link device so I cant speak on that

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
All of my AIX discs have the 192 stereo layer, im sure yours do too. The 3910 outputs two channel 192/24 via analog and ieee 1394 (PIO VSX-56TXi). Dont have a Denon link device so I cant speak on that

Okay, I'll try one right now, it doesn't seem to be documented though, as far as I can tell...

Hmm...how do you access it? Using the Juber disc...all it shows on the video image and the receiver is 96/24...

Do you have the eagles hotel califronia dvd audio disk? if so choose the 2 channel and it will be 192/24.

Originally posted by kevinca1
Do you have the eagles hotel califronia dvd audio disk? if so choose the 2 channel and it will be 192/24.

Yes, I'm aware of that one, I was referring to the AIX discs that Tom Grooms mentioned above where he said they all have a 192/24 track.

Just got off the phone with Dominic at AIX Records and as it turns out, only the sampler disc has any 192/24 tracks on it, only a few songs even. He did say that they were recorded with 2 mics at a 192/24 sampling frequency and not up-converted to achieve the 192/24.

Other than the sampler, all AIX discs are 96/24.

http://www.aixrecords.com/catalog/sampler2.html
AIX Records - Audio Fidelity Beyond Reality

He also mentioned there were a couple of new ones coming out in about a month, one with former members of Supertramp. :)

keenan, that is correct once I looked further. The sampler is the only one with 192/24 tracks.

Would it be better to play those titles using EXT IN (analog, R and L of the 5.1) rather than CD in on the receiver using the R and L extra set of analog inputs to CD on the receiver?

I don't know, can't figure out where I put the disc to give it a try..:p

I don't think there would be a difference between those two outputs...I think those two outputs are redundant, so it shouldn't matter...gonna have to research it a little more..

Why are you not using the denon link Jazz?

Originally posted by kevinca1
Why are you not using the denon link Jazz?

kevinca1, I haven't hooked up DLink yet. Kind of waiting to hear from Denon about a fix for the BTB issue before I decide to keep it or not.

With DenonLink, which component's DAC's are doing the processing? 3910, 3805 or both?

Originally posted by jazzcat
With DenonLink, which component's DAC's are doing the processing? 3910, 3805 or both?

The 3805.

I am not sure really. I belive it would be like usiing the digitail or coax out??

Certainly, if you're using the DLink, the 3805 will be doing the conversion/processing just like digital coax or optical. I have yet to set up my 3910 per the 5900/3805 setup instructions that Denon has posted, so I don't use the DenonLink connection. I use either Ext In analog or 2-channel analog for music and the digital coax for DVDs. I'd like to find the time to set it up according to the 5900/3805 directions, but finding the time is a challenge. I damn well better set it all up before May when the baby is due (another noob! :D).

Time...ain't on my side...no it ain't...:)

Jason

I followed the Denon instructions, and they work like a charm. Once you do, it's easy to toggle back and forth to compare the D-Link and Ext In. For DVD-A's on my system, the D-Link sounds a lot better.

I emailed Denon as well. I received a response similar to other members. I'd like to suggest we begin calling the Denon reps who are courteous enough to answers our email as Denon reps, instead of by their names. We shouldn't post their name without their permission. Posting a name for others to email seems fair to me, but reprinting their response might be stepping over the line. Just a thought..

Martin

You may be correct here regarding protocol on posting emails, but I believe that we are being very fair with Denon's reps and that our feedback can only help them get a fix on these types of problems. How else are they going to have ~20 different "out the door" units set up in different ways to different displays tested for "free"??

We could paraphrase their responses??? :)

mismatched

Originally posted by JBaumgart
I followed the Denon instructions, and they work like a charm. Once you do, it's easy to toggle back and forth to compare the D-Link and Ext In. For DVD-A's on my system, the D-Link sounds a lot better.

not to question your ears but I would be very surprised based on what I have read here and elsewhere if sound quality resulting from processing by the 3805 would exceed the SQ using the DACs of the 3910. Are all other factors truly equal??

For example, do you have your speakers room EQd for both Denon link and Ext In? You cannot use the Auto EQ setup function of the 3805 for this purpose. you need an SPL meter and you have the 3910 generate the white noise for this purpose. Now I am not certain but I would presume that you can use the Auto EQ function for Denon link since in this situation the 3805 is doing the decoding....

The DACs in the 3910 are superior to those in the 3805 so I say use 'em wisely!! :D

Originally posted by BillP
The 3805.

I concur fully and confidently! :D

Originally posted by JasonColeman
I'd like to find the time to set it up according to the 5900/3805 directions, but finding the time is a challenge.

Time...ain't on my side...no it ain't...:)

Jason

Seriously, Dude, it only takes about 20-30 mins..at the most.. :D

Jim,
Did you see what you were looking for at that "other" site?

Dave

Originally posted by keenan
Seriously, Dude, it only takes about 20-30 mins..at the most.. :D
The major obstacle is that I don't own a SPL and our local RS doesn't carry them. It's just a matter of calling around, finding one, and going to pick it up (which would also probably only take 20-30 mins!:D).

I just need to set aside the time and set it up.

Jason

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Jim,
Did you see what you were looking for at that "other" site?

Dave

Yep, nice job. :)

As I mentioned though, I'll be married to my 5900 for awhile now...:D

Originally posted by mismatched
not to question your ears but I would be very surprised based on what I have read here and elsewhere if sound quality resulting from processing by the 3805 would exceed the SQ using the DACs of the 3910. Are all other factors truly equal??

For example, do you have your speakers room EQd for both Denon link and Ext In? You cannot use the Auto EQ setup function of the 3805 for this purpose. you need an SPL meter and you have the 3910 generate the white noise for this purpose. Now I am not certain but I would presume that you can use the Auto EQ function for Denon link since in this situation the 3805 is doing the decoding....

The DACs in the 3910 are superior to those in the 3805 so I say use 'em wisely!! :D

Yes I have a Radio Shack meter and the speakers are balanced using the player's pink noise generater on Ext In. However, this is a level adjustment only and there is no Room EQ applied, which I believe explains the difference. Perhaps due to my room (which is a bit odd with many openings, a fireplace, etc) the 3805's Auto/Room EQ makes more of a difference than the difference in DAC's. The Ext In sound is very detailed, probably even more than when using Denon Link, but it just seems a little "flat" in comparision (ironic as I use the "Flat" setting on the 3805's Room EQ). I do go back and forth between the two on DVD-A's, but always seem to settle in on the digital connection, which is more robust and still very detailed. Just going by what my ears tell me.

Of course for SACD's, I have no choice, which is a shame and mostly explains why I have way more DVD-A's than SACD's.

Originally posted by Cheezmo

It would be really beneficial for someone to take a color analyzer and test patterns to one of these setups to see what is really going on.


I conducted a test with my equipment (Sencore VP403/CP5000) in this post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5043793#post5043793)

After updating my Samsung DLP's calibration, I set as many of the 3910's setting to default as I could. With one or two minor tweaks that I listed in a post that follows the above one, results showed no green bias and the 3910 tracked pretty close the DLP on its own. I can conduct more tests if anyone has any requests.

I'm running HDMI to DVI however, since I have an older HLN Samsung that has DVI only. I can't recall off the top of my head whether I'm using HDMI-RGB or HDMI-YPbPr.

Rick

I'm running HDMI to DVI however, since I have an older HLN Samsung that has DVI only. I can't recall off the top of my head whether I'm using HDMI-RGB or HDMI-YPbPr.
It was RGB. DVI does not spec YCbCr so I doubt the Sammy would accept it. YPbPr is component analog video. I know of only one player that will send YCbCR via DVI so that it can talk to a HDMI capable display that accepts YCbCr.

larry

Originally posted by jazzcat
Ken, Many of us have stated that we are using DVI. I even tried it with component and it didn't pass BTB there either.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe you ought to reply back and tell him they are mistaken...

I just picked up this player and do you mean to tell it won't pass BTB? That sucks, I should return this player before I even open it.:mad:

Originally posted by Auditor55
I just picked up this player and do you mean to tell it won't pass BTB? That sucks, I should return this player before I even open it.:mad:

I suggest that you all Denon. The PQ and sound that this player produces is nothing to sneez at! The more people that notify Denon about this problem the better. Should you return it?? Have you tried it?? Do you have a "grace" period before you must return it??

And if you do try your unit for BTB report your results at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=513507&goto=newpost

Originally posted by mismatched
I suggest that you all Denon. The PQ and sound that this player produces is nothing to sneez at! The more people that notify Denon about this problem the better. Should you return it?? Have you tried it?? Do you have a "grace" period before you must return it??

And if you do try your unit for BTB report your results at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=513507&goto=newpost


I do have 30 days to return it. I don't like having to return stuff because my goal is to find something that I really like at a good price.

Well then try it. Put it through its paces with some great SACDs, DVD-A and a "benchmark" movie like Master and Commander. You hear a bunch of p$$!# and moaning here but that is the nature of the beast. The BTB issue aside for now, most I think are blown away by the audio perfomance of this unit and pretty darned pleased with the PQ it produces.

I just picked up a 3910 today and so far I'm very impressed with this player. One thing I can't figure out is when playing DVD-A's I can't get any video over DVI? I can't even access the set up menu when a DVD-A disc is in? It works fine over component though. Any ideas as to what I could be doing wrong?

Sorry if this has been asked already, but after searching through 30 + pages I gave up.......

You need to download the latest firmware -8 from the Denon Website.

Dave