Is anyone in the Eau Claire area able to receive the new La Crosse CBS High Definition signal? I don't have a pre amp or anything on my antenna and it is a medium size one.

I've been reading AVS Forums for years, but have yet to purchase an HDTV. Good to see a few Eau Claire people care about DTV. Do we know how long they are staying low power. I read a statement a month ago or so that said they were hoping for 30 - 40 miles signal range under low power. Might be able to pick it up with a good Channel Master UHF antenna. Either the double bowtie model #4228 or the yagi 4248 mounted on the roof might do the trick. Please keep us posted............

Jimboeau

Originally posted by jimboeau
Do we know how long they are staying low power. I read a statement a month ago or so that said they were hoping for 30 - 40 miles signal range under low power.

My guess is that they will stay underpowered for as long as they can. Rumor has it that the FCC might not protect frequencies indefinitely for stations that don't run full-power, but I haven't seen any confirmation of that.

I think they're dreaming for a <10kw UHF signal to reach 40 miles. Maybe if you're sitting on top of a hill with no obstructions to the tower. Otherwise, I'd expect 20 miles to be a more realistic limit.

50 kw supposedly gets close to that 40 mile number.

I'm sitting 56 miles away. Looks like I'll be waiting forever.

About a month ago I sent an email to WKBT and here was the reply I got......

We are pleased to report that on March 28th, WKBT-DT began broadcasting digital and HDTV programming on Channel 41 from an antenna mounted on a tower in Galesville, WI. We will continue broadcasting our analog programming over WKBT-TV, including CBS network programs and local news and public affairs, on Channel 8. We will continue to operate both in digital on Channel 41 and in analog on Channel 8 for several more years until the transition to digital is complete.

Our predicted coverage area for digital broadcasts is a radius of about 30 to 40 miles around our Galesville tower. Some of the cities within our digital service area include LaCrosse, Winona, West Salem, Sparta, Black River Falls, Arcadia and Caledonia. This DOES NOT mean that every household will be able to receive WKBT-DT because our signal is blocked by the bluffs and valleys.

We are studying a number of options to expand our over-the-air digital coverage area. We are also continuing discussions with cable companies to carry the digital and HDTV programming we broadcast over WKBT-DT. Unfortunately, no cable company is currently carrying WKBT-DT (or any other digital broadcast signals) so, for now, the only way you can receive our digital programming is to purchase a digital television and install an antenna or in many cases, use your existing antenna.

We have heard from less than 10 people regarding reception (or lack thereof) of WKBT-DT. We plan to expand the areas we can serve in the future, but we must hear from you. Input we receive from viewers like you regarding reception are all very important factors in determining what our next step will be regarding expansion of the service area for WKBT-DT.

We appreciate your feedback and hope for your patience as we proceed down this very complex transition to a digital future.


Sincerely,

Scott Chorski, General Mgr.
Dick Konrad, Chief Enginee

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would make no sense to only broadcast 20 miles because the tower is in between La Crosse and Eau Claire which means only a few cows could get the signal. If that were the case Eau Claire and La Crosse would be shut out.............

Jimboeau

Originally posted by jimboeau
It would make no sense to only broadcast 20 miles because the tower is in between La Crosse and Eau Claire which means only a few cows could get the signal. If that were the case Eau Claire and La Crosse would be shut out.............


Anyone with line-of-sight to their tower should be able to get it, almost regardless of the power. 9.13 kw ERP, directional at that, is a very low amount of power, though, and will have almost no penetration beyond that limit. They are up pretty high (298 meters) which means the theoretical horizon (over perfectly flat terrain) is close to 60 miles, but almost anything (trees, buildings, small hills) will break up that weak of a signal. Also, any noise source will quickly overpower the signal as distance from the transmitter increases. Daylight reception will likely be spotty-to-poor at 30 miles, even with line-of-sight.

Do a search on this forum for ERP and distance and you'll quickly find that power levels below 50kw don't have much range. WKBT is unlikely to be the exception to the laws of physics, no matter what their engineers think.

Anybody know if WEUX Fox out of Eau Claire is going live on July 1. TitanTV has July 1 as a live date.........

Also, what power is WKBT broadcasting their digital signal? I hear low power, but some site say 1000kw.........

Jimboeau

Originally posted by jimboeau
Anybody know if WEUX Fox out of Eau Claire is going live on July 1. TitanTV has July 1 as a live date.........

Also, what power is WKBT broadcasting their digital signal? I hear low power, but some site say 1000kw.........


In general, only the engineers know when they'll go live with a signal. Take TitanTV's information with a grain of salt.

For WKBT, go to this site:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio2?x=tvq.html

Enter WKBT and select the "TV Query" option at the bottom. There will be at least one listing for digital. One is the "full service" listing which is what the FCC has allocated for their use. If there is an "STA" listing, that's what they're using now. Some web sites ignore the STAs and only show the full-power listing. In WKBT's case, they're using a directional antenna (take the total ERP and multiply it by the factor corresponding to the compass direction from the antenna to your location for the effective ERP in your direction) at a whopping 9.13 kw.

In general, if you don't have line-of-sight to the transmitter to your antenna, that ought to be good for about 10 miles. Maybe less. 50kw does very well at covering a 20-30 mile radius.

Here is another link in this forum with a lot of Eau Claire area information on it. I just added more stuff regarding recepition of the LaCrosse CBS Station on it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2709748#post2709748

I've heard from both Dick Konrad @ WKBT DT and Charter's front desk (had to replace a faulty cable modem) that CBS will be on Charter HD *soon*, and even possibly by the Super Bowl. Since I've yet to hear anything from Charter on an official marketing roll-out, I'm not holding out much hope that it'll be here by February 1st for the Super Bowl. Too bad they don't need beta-testers. :(

BJS

Hi:
I had been wondering about news regarding when fox 48 out of Eau Claire would start broadcasting digital and even 720p this fall when fox goes to that.... If you recall they had been listed in Titan as going digital last July 2003.. now some sites say 2004... I am not going to hold my breath as I just wrote to them and finally got a response. (not real encouraging IMHO)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding when and how much SDTV/HDTV that FOX 25 & FOX 48 will be
broadcasting in the area, what I can say is this: WLAX and WEUX are still
working with equipment vendors, bankers and the F.C.C. in order to get the
equipment and in trying to get it installed...-

When we have a better handle on that situation, we'll be more than happy
to let the viewers know, -via- our current On-Air-Channels of WLAX-TV 25 and
WEUX-TV 48, in La Crosse and Chippewa Falls-Eau Claire, WI.
respectively...and our web-site (www.fox25fox48.com), the date(s) and I'm
also sure that our Promotions Dept., headed up by Ms. Pat Stiphout, will be
waving the banner of SDTV/HDTV high and proudly, again, when the time is
near...-

I apologize that I can't be more helpful than that...I don't want to
give out a date and then, for whatever reason, that date is not met. I
would feel much better when I can actually have the equipment on-hand,
properly installed and tested and THEN, being able to pick a date that will
not only be enjoyed by everyone who's able to tune in, but also the folks
that have worked so hard to get it to you...I'm sure you would want us to be
able to put out the best product available and do it in a manner that is
consistent and doesn't degrade the wonders of SDTV/HDTV itself...-

Please be patient...it makes much more sense to it right the first time.
Remember, if you didn't have the time to do it right the first time, where
will you get the time to do it over again, correctly?

Please feel free to keep me updated with your situation (regarding
e-mail addresses, if you move, etc...). I'll keep your e-mail information
in a folder/database of potential SDTV/HDTV viewers so that when we do get
ready to go on, you folks (our potential viewers), may be able to get an
e-mail from me asking you to watch and critque how SDTV/HDTV looks, sounds
and performs...-

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me -via-
e-mail and I'll try to get back to you as soom as possible...-

Respectfully,


Mark G. Burg
Chief Operator / Chief Engineer / SHoVA Czar
GRANT Media L.L.C.
(a division of: GRANT COMMUNICATIONS, Inc.)
WLAX-TV / WEUX-TV - FOX 25 / FOX 48
WLAX-DT / WEUX-DT
La Crosse / Chippewa Falls-Eau Claire, WI.
1305 Interchange Place - La Crosse, WI. 54603.1673.05.0
608.781.0025, x.205

I just wanted to get a tread started for the central WI area. I have good luck getting all my local DTV OTA stations including NBC from Eau Claire. So far NBC and PBS are the only HD stations with 5.1 sound. ABC and CBS are doing Dolby stereo right now, with CBS just getting to stereo on their analog station a few years back. I have talked with the FOX engineer and have no hope for them to get our Packer games in HD. His forecast might be two years just to get a digital signal going.

Dave

Has anyone heard from Charter about getting HDTV cable like they have in Madison? I keep asking my local cable company (WCTC - Wood County Telephone Company) and have never been given a straight answer.

try Direct TV....Fox HD is beginning to do a national feed soon and you might get some games there. I am in Madison and don't have fox HD yet so don't feel bad. I had charter HD in Madison and it sucked. PQ was horrible...squares all over the place and no DVI output on the box!!! try satellite. gl

My friend has Dish with HD for ESPN but nothing for FOX. I will have to take a look at Direct and see if i can get anything local with FOX.

Official La Crosse/Eau Claire & Wausau/Rhinelander, WI thread.

CPanter95,

Thanks for adding the La Crosse/Wausau thread to the list. I hope more cheeseheads post soon.

I just read this on the Western Wisconsin Society of Broadcast Engineers website. SBE Website (http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe112/newsletter.htm)

WKBT will be replacing their antenna next spring and bumping their digital transmitter up to full power.

Very good news for those of us who can not get CBS in HD over the air.

I have two questions for Wausau viewers. First, has anyone had problems with CBS and audio drop outs or just clips with the sound. It's enough to notice but not bad enough to turn the channel.

Second, i was not able to pick up MNF last night. I had a great signal strength of 92, but no picture or sound. I hope a station problems since i had not problems with CBS, PBS or NBC.

I have had an ongoing conversation with WKBT of La Crosse. The main topic is that they insist on stretching all of their 4:3 content on their DT station to fill the entire 16:9 frame. (Rather than leaving the black bars on the sides like most HD stations)

The only time that they do not do this is during primetime programming (7:00 to 11:35). The rest of the day they stretch the 4:3 to fill the screen. This has included the SD football games on weekends, and many other things that have been annoying to watch.

The main reason that they claim they are doing this is so that they can't be blamed for causing burn-in on the screen of someone with Plasma, or other technologies that are prone to this. I have pointed out to them that TVs of that kind are able to zoom/stretch the image, but they are still paranoid that someone will blame them if their 10,000 plasma gets burn-in.

I have written to them multiple times complaining, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. The main reason they won't stop doing this is that they claim I am the only person to have ever complained about this... which is why I am posting here.

If you watch WKBT-DT and find the stretched 4:3 content to be annoying please respond in here and let me know. I think if we get enough people who agree with me we could get this changed.

Thanks.

On another topic, I have been talking with Fox 25 and they say they will have HD going before the Super Bowl. (Probably not much before, but they have been working on it)

Originally posted by sregener
My guess is that they will stay underpowered for as long as they can. Rumor has it that the FCC might not protect frequencies indefinitely for stations that don't run full-power, but I haven't seen any confirmation of that.


Actually, it was adopted in the FCC's Second DTV Periodic Review. In short, it gives ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC affiliates in the top 100 markets until July of 2005 to maximize their DT service areas. All other commercial stations have until July of 2006. Unfortunately, it looks like La Crosse-Eau Claire (market #126) will be under that later deadline.

There's plenty of debate whether the FCC will stick to these deadlines, but an engineer from Greensboro, NC who posts on this forum insists the FCC really, really, really means it this time, and I would like to believe it.

Where is Fox 25 located? The Fox 55 in Wausau is not going to have anything up and running soon. It sounds like almost 2006 before they get bug up their butt. I can pull in Channel 13-1 with no problems will I have a chance with FOX 25?

Fox 25 is out of La Crosse. I am not sure about the Eau Claire Fox 48, but I would guess it will come at a similar time. (They are sister stations)

I am not sure if you will be able to get it, but I will post here when it is up and running.

The problem with Fox 55 in Wausau is that they didn't get their analog permit until after 1997. That means they don't get a second channel for digital. To begin digital broadcasts they have to turn the analog OTA signal off...

Doug,

That is basically what the engineer at FOX told me. They are just waiting for all the red tape to clear and see where they stand.

Originally posted by Micah008
If you watch WKBT-DT and find the stretched 4:3 content to be annoying please respond in here and let me know. I think if we get enough people who agree with me we could get this changed.


Well, I've received WKBT-DT exactly once so far due to their low power, but I expect that to change dramatically when they go full power in the spring.

However, other stations I receive also do the 16:9 strecth of 4:3 content, but this doesn't bother me at all since my television offers a "force 4:3" option on all HD content which effectively "unstretches" the image. I know not all HD STBs and televisions have this option, but the fact that some do may account for the low number of complaints.

Originally posted by Micah008
On another topic, I have been talking with Fox 25 and they say they will have HD going before the Super Bowl. (Probably not much before, but they have been working on it)

HD or digital? I'd be shocked to see them put up a digital signal *and* be HD-capable the same day, but I suppose it's possible. Here's hoping (and WEUX, as well, since I get that much better than WLAX.)

Originally posted by sregener
I know now all HD STBs and televisions have this option, but the fact that some do may account for the low number of complaints.


I have an HD STB from Charter... but I am unable to "force 4:3" as you say. All of the stations that are 4:3 naturally (analog) are able to stay in 4:3 through my cable box, but when WKBT stretches the 4:3 image, and then sends it out in 1080i (I assume) I am unable to get either my STB or my TV to put it back into the correct ratio... they both assume it is a "real" HD broadcast.

Originally posted by sregener
HD or digital? I'd be shocked to see them put up a digital signal *and* be HD-capable the same day, but I suppose it's possible. Here's hoping (and WEUX, as well, since I get that much better than WLAX.)

They claim it will really be HD (and yes, I fully understand the difference), but I agree that we will have to see it to believe it. I will be happy to even get a digital version of their station, since it is one of the worst analog ones we get.

I got an email from their Cheif Engineer just a few days ago. He said that they actually have everything ready to go right now and they just need FCC approval. He said he would email me (and others on his list) as soon as they are ready ... hopefully it will be coming soon. I will post here as soon as they tell me that they have turned it on.

By the way, he also said it would be low power to start, but he would be "happy just to get something digital out there."

Originally posted by Micah008
I have an HD STB from Charter... but I am unable to "force 4:3" as you say.

My apologies for the typo. I meant, "I know *not* all" not, "now all."

My advice would be to complain to Charter about their box, not to WKBT.

I have just talked with Charter about offering HD channels in our area and it sound like the Wausau/Wis Rapids areas should have the locals plus ESPN, HD Net, HBO and Showtime on Monday the 6th of December. When i talked with Charter today they said it looks like I should be able to receive these stations on Monday but call back and they will have all of the addresses updated to see exactly where the different packages are offered. Here is a link to the Wausau paper about the new addition.

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/282610411207718.shtml

Originally posted by sregener
My apologies for the typo. I meant, "I know *not* all" not, "now all."


No problem. That is what I figured.



Originally posted by sregener
My advice would be to complain to Charter about their box, not to WKBT.

I really don't think this is an issue with Charter. It would be the same way getting it over the air. Charter just passes along the signal they get out of the air.

The fact that CBS is the only one I have this issue with means that the other HD local stations are doing something better (right). And therefore WKBT could do the same, they just don't want to (or they don't think there is a good enough reason to).

Originally posted by Micah008
I really don't think this is an issue with Charter. It would be the same way getting it over the air. Charter just passes along the signal they get out of the air.

The problem isn't with how Charter chooses to pass the signal along. The problem is with their HD STB they've rented to you. That box should have the ability to force 4:3 on 16:9 programming, but it doesn't. I have two HD tuners (different brands) for OTA reception and *both* can do this.

I think WKBT would be smarter to use 4:3 framing since there are a number of people with your problem. Yet the fact remains that Charter can fix your problem with a box that can force 4:3.

srenger-

You are completely right that a different cable box could fix this (or my TV even could if it had the right modes)... but I think WKBT is still the real one at fault.

I think we are in agreement here anyway. :)


Still no word from Fox. I think it will be 25.1 for you, so let me know if it shows up.

This just showed up in the FCC database:

WLAX WI LA CROSSE USA (Digital)

Licensee: GRANT MEDIA LLC
Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (digital)

Channel: 17 488 - 494 MHz
File No.: BDSTA-20041122AJL Facility ID number: 2710
CDBS Application ID No.: 1032166

43° 48' 15.00" N Latitude
91° 22' 20.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization:
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 2.46 kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 177. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 446.6 meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 0. meters AGL

That 2.46kw is pretty low, and the antenna height is well under 1/2 of their analog broadcasting location. I'm guessing they might cover a 5-10 mile area with that, and given the topography of the La Crosse area, it's unlikely even that everyone in that radius will get anything.

WEUX still has no STA in the database.

Great!!

I looked up that position and it looks like the tower is over in Minnesota (west of La Crescent, and north of Hokah). It is probably on top of the bluffs, so it may not need to be as tall?

Is that the same location as their analog tower?

Where did you find this info?

Originally posted by Micah008
I looked up that position and it looks like the tower is over in Minnesota (west of La Crescent, and north of Hokah). It is probably on top of the bluffs, so it may not need to be as tall?

Is that the same location as their analog tower?

Where did you find this info?

The La Crosse stations (WHLA, WXOW and WLAX) share the same towers which are visible from I-90 in a fair direction into Minnesota and from downtown La Crosse. The STA lists the height above ground level as zero, meaning the digital broadcasting antenna will be located at the *base* of the tower. Their analog one is some 100+ meters above the ground. So if you have line-of-sight to the base of the tower, and you're less than 20 miles away, I'd say you have a good shot at getting a signal with a quality outdoor antenna. Otherwise, forget it.

You can query the FCC for license information for any station in the country here:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Simply type in the call letters and select 'TV Query' from the output selection list. "Licensed" means they're running full power. "STA" means they have a temporary authority to broadcast at less than full power. "CP" or "Construction Permit" means that is what the station is authorized to build out to, but that they haven't done so.

WLAX (Fox 25) Digital is now on the air as of this afternoon.

Have you heard anything about fox 48?

Originally posted by Micah008
WLAX (Fox 25) Digital is now on the air as of this afternoon.

As expected, not even a blip on the meter at 58 miles...

Originally posted by jimboeau
Have you heard anything about fox 48?

Fox 48 is "Pending". I am not sure the date they are shooting for. Their Chief Engineer has been good about providing information, you could call/email him.

Originally posted by Micah008
Fox 48 is "Pending". I am not sure the date they are shooting for. Their Chief Engineer has been good about providing information, you could call/email him.

I just got an email message from the chief engineer.

According to him 48.1 will not be up until the end of 2nd Quarter 2005 and when it does it will just be 480i as 25.1 is now, but it will be about 5kW. 720p will not come until they are both up and running. My guess is we'll be lucky to have HD before the end of 2005 on both 25.1 and 48.1

Originally posted by jimboeau
I just got an email message from the chief engineer.

According to him 48.1 will not be up until the end of 2nd Quarter 2005 and when it does it will just be 480i as 25.1 is now, but it will be about 5kW. 720p will not come until they are both up and running. My guess is we'll be lucky to have HD before the end of 2005 on both 25.1 and 48.1
I have specifically asked about High Definition on 25, and they said "before the Superbowl" multiple times. Maybe they meant Digital before the superbowl, but I have always specifically asked about HD.

Originally posted by Micah008
I have specifically asked about High Definition on 25, and they said "before the Superbowl" multiple times. Maybe they meant Digital before the superbowl, but I have always specifically asked about HD.

One of two possibilities, here:

1) They assumed you're stupid and don't know the difference between digital and HD.

2) They're stupid and don't know the difference between digital and HD.

Many engineers of small-market stations fall into category #2.

Originally posted by sregener
One of two possibilities, here:

1) They assumed you're stupid and don't know the difference between digital and HD.

2) They're stupid and don't know the difference between digital and HD.

Many engineers of small-market stations fall into category #2.

After talking to them about it today, I think it is actually an option #3:

3) The engineer and staff were all told by their "corporate office" that they would do true HD, but when the office realized how much it cost they backed it down some and only bought the equipment for SD digital.

Originally posted by Micah008
After talking to them about it today, I think it is actually an option #3:

3) The engineer and staff were all told by their "corporate office" that they would do true HD, but when the office realized how much it cost they backed it down some and only bought the equipment for SD digital.

Probably true. This is, after all, one of the last stations in the country to go digital, in spite of being two years past the "official" deadline. Their extensions have all been because of extreme financial distress.

Bah...I'd really like to have me some HD Super Bowl and even moreso...some HD 24! :/

I could handle just a SD digital signal from FOX right now.

So they're STILL not digital? I actually don't get OTA, I'm being raped by Charter (and not liking it too much). I'm pretty disappointed with their HD lineup but don't want to hassle at this point with installing a new antenna to pick up OTA HD and switch to Dish. So the general news is that they won't be going HD 'til probably closer to the end of the year but should be at least digital (480p) soon? When they go digital will charter have to pick up their digital broadcast and put it on a diff channel like they do with the other local DTVs?

Originally posted by smakz0r
So the general news is that they won't be going HD 'til probably closer to the end of the year but should be at least digital (480p) soon? When they go digital will charter have to pick up their digital broadcast and put it on a diff channel like they do with the other local DTVs?

There is no digital must-carry law on the books right now. Charter is free to carry or not carry any digital station they choose.

Typically, a station that only converts their analog signal to digital does so at 480i, not 480p.

Originally posted by sregener
There is no digital must-carry law on the books right now. Charter is free to carry or not carry any digital station they choose.

Typically, a station that only converts their analog signal to digital does so at 480i, not 480p.


ok...what I meant by "have to" was that I'll have to wait for Charter to pick it up as I don't have an OTA tuner...and the digital signal will have better picture quality and sound right?

Originally posted by smakz0r
ok...what I meant by "have to" was that I'll have to wait for Charter to pick it up as I don't have an OTA tuner...and the digital signal will have better picture quality and sound right?

Yes, you'll have to wait if you don't have an OTA tuner.

And I've seen digital signals that are inferior to their analog counterparts, and ones that are much, much better. Given that they have no HD equipment in house, it will probably be no better than a "perfect" analog signal would be.

After rereading I'm still not sure whether or not WLAX has started broadcasting in digital...have they? And correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we probably won't be HD until maybe November? BTW...I've also sent an email to the tech guy and he just told me he wouldn't give any information other than that they were working on it.

Word on the street (and I'm in Eau Claire, so I cannot confirm) is that WLAX-DT is 4:3 480p that Charter is refusing to carry due to it "not being HD". WLAX and WEUX up here in Eau Claire/Chippewa Falls is the true definition of "broadcasting on a dime". If this battle keeps up, I'm hoping Charter's rumored threat of looking into Fox HD out of the Twin Cities is true...

Jack Bauer needs to be in HD.

Originally posted by BJS
Word on the street (and I'm in Eau Claire, so I cannot confirm) is that WLAX-DT is 4:3 480p that Charter is refusing to carry due to it "not being HD". WLAX and WEUX up here in Eau Claire/Chippewa Falls is the true definition of "broadcasting on a dime". If this battle keeps up, I'm hoping Charter's rumored threat of looking into Fox HD out of the Twin Cities is true...

The owners of WEUX and WLAX, Grant Media LLC, lost a lawsuit a few years back that put them in dire straits. They were granted repeated extensions of the FCC's requirement to broadcast a digital signal due to financial problems. Grant Media claimed that the costs associated with going digital would literally bankrupt them. Apparently, the FCC agreed. So, while they *are* broadcasting on a dime, it's not because they're trying to be cheap. It just appears that their "Sex.com" business hasn't been doing as well as they'd like and they lost their shirts on it.

FWIW, Charter cannot pipe a distant Fox station, even a HD version, into an exclusively controlled market. Unless Fox corporate renegotiates the affiliate agreement that gives each station exclusitivity to its market, Charter would be in violation of copyright law for providing a distant Fox HD feed.

I recall for a while getting a UPN station of out the Twin Cities until it switched to the one in La Crosse, but that may have been due to the face that the La Crosse station just started operations.

Originally posted by lovebohn
I have two questions for Wausau viewers. First, has anyone had problems with CBS and audio drop outs or just clips with the sound. It's enough to notice but not bad enough to turn the channel.


Are you still getting these drop outs? I am also getting them, only on ABC (WAOW).

Good then i don't feel like the only person. I guess we are all a bunch of beta testers for digital TV right now!

I just got off the phone with Fox 48 in Eau Claire. The lady said they plan to start broadcasting digital in the sping. She offered to let me speak with the engineer but I figured it wasn't worth the trouble just yet. I doubt we'll see true 720P from them by next football season, and maybe not even the following.
Maybe they should sell to someone who can actually afford to run a business of this sort.:rolleyes:

I live on the northside of La Crosse by the Black River and I have Voom (for however long). I was antenna upgraded last summer to a SquareShooter and get channels 8, 19, and 31, but not 13 because it is too far away and to the northeast of me. As long as Voom is continueing on with business as usual I want to see about another antenna upgrade to get channel 13, but I need some suggestions as to what antenna to go with. From what I have read, channel 13 hd gets into downtown
La Crosse and I am 2.5 miles closer than that. I also know that people in Onalaska, just 2.5 miles north of me receive channel 13 hd and it is mapped on my Voom channel guide. Even if I have to pay something for another antenna, I would have to anyway, and this way I would get somebody to put it up who knows what they are doing.

If I can get channel 13 hd, then I can drop Charter cable's basic lineup and save $13 a month. If and when Voom goes I would like to have an ota antenna which will get my locals. According to their program guide, Charter does not even carry channel 31 with their hd package. Whenever Fox 25 comes into the picture I should be able to get it because it should be near 19 and 31. So if worst comes to worst, I would like to be set for ota hd with my locals.

On Friday I signed for Va Va Voom which gives me virtually all of the channels they carry, but one, and I now have about 30 additional movie channels including 6 or so in hd. Despite all the talk of Voom going under they signed me up in about 5 minutes and I had the channels. It will cost me about another $42 per month for however long they last, but I figured I would get my fill of hd while I could.
The trouble is that if I drop Va Va Voom and go back to what I had, it will cost me $10 more per month because my monthly fee had been grandfathered in at a lower rate.
Although, if I can get channel 13 with a new antenna it will save me $13 a month, so overall I will be ahead a few bucks.
So I look at it that it is mostly a win-win situation for me.

Has anyone heard any more about Fox 25 here in La Crosse? I know there will be many around here who will be disappointed tonight about the Super Bowl if it is not in hd. It doesn't bother me because I ban watching the Super Bowl although I am football fan and grew up a Packer fan. Just a personal, quirky choice of mine.
I also refuse to shop at WalMart for what I consider lots of valid reasons.

TIA for any help or answers.

Originally posted by elocs
As long as Voom is continueing on with business as usual I want to see about another antenna upgrade to get channel 13, but I need some suggestions as to what antenna to go with. From what I have read, channel 13 hd gets into downtown La Crosse and I am 2.5 miles closer than that.

I get WEAU-DT on a fairly regular basis here in Rochester, MN. I'm certain they'll reach the La Crosse area.

You have two problems. The first is that you need a second antenna (not a big deal) and the second is that you need a way to hook a second UHF antenna to the first without having conflicting problems. Normally, the way to do this would be to buy a Channel Master "Jointenna" for channel 39 (WEAU-DT's frequency) and you'd be done, but the filters have a bit of bleed, such that you might have problems with WKBT-DT on channel 41. It might be okay, and then again, it might not, especially as long as WKBT-DT stays at low power.

I'd consider a 4-bay bowtie antenna like the Channel Master 3021 or the AntennasDirect DB4. Either should get you a solid signal on WEAU-DT.

You may need to buy an A/B switch from Radio Shack to switch between the two antennas, though.

You *cannot* combine two UHF antennas and expect to get good results, unless you point them in the same direction and they are of exactly the same make.

I pull WEAU in central Lacrosse (just of Cass).

My off-air setup consists of two antennas, both from Radio Shack. One is about a 75 mile range antenna pointed north, and the second is a smaller one pointed west. I use the jointenna mentioned above to combine the signal of the two antennas, but I don't think I'd need to. The JoinTenna blocks 39 on the west facing antenna. I don't worry about blocking/isolating for the other frequencies. In La Crosse, the PBS, ABC and CBS signals are so strong, that even with the interference generated by combining two signals with just a splitter/joiner, I still get good reception (the benefit of digital TV). I have found that the west facing antenna doesn't pick up the EauClaire station at all, so combining the signal with the north facing antenna doesn't really seem to generate any significant degeneration in the WEAU signal - thus the jointenna may be overkill. WEAU comes in reasonably well, but I do plan to add a pre-amp to offset the signal loss in my relatively long cable drop and the splitters I use inline. If I was installing a new antenna from scratch, I would put a decent pre-amp on the antenna you use to pick up Eau Claire.

I do have a tall, two-story house, and my view to the north is completely unobstructed, so I have an ideal situation for receiving WEAU. If you have a clear shot, you should have no trouble getting it with any variety of decent antenna selections.

Is anyone in the Wausau area getting Fox in HD? I am able to get NBC out of Eau Claire, but I have been unable to pick up Fox from Madison or Green Bay. As mentioned above the WEAU-DT signal is very strong, I get about 85% on my Dish 811. I have heard varying reports of the strength of Green Bay and Madison's Fox stations, does anyone know what they are broadcasting at for sure?

I am currently using a Radio Shack 90-mile antenna on a rotator. Watching NASCAR in SD just isn't the same after you have seen it in HD. If anyone in my area is getting Fox in HD, let me know your set up please.

Originally posted by Innova
I have heard varying reports of the strength of Green Bay and Madison's Fox stations, does anyone know what they are broadcasting at for sure?

According to the FCC database, WLUK-DT in Green Bay is at 360kw ERP. WMSN-DT in Madison is on hi-VHF channel 11, and is operating at their fully authorized 15kw, but that is biased away from Madison.

You can check predicted coverage areas here:

WLUK: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS612599.html
WMSN: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT620297.html

Note that WLUK's analog signal is a full-powered 316kw on channel 11, which will make it difficult for people close to Green Bay to get Madison's Fox digital signal.

I think we are just screwed till FOX 55 goes digital in 2006!!

Originally posted by lovebohn
I think we are just screwed till FOX 55 goes digital in 2006!!

Maybe not.....

http://www.sri.com/esd/dish/photogallery/bigdish.jpg

Well, spring is officially here and my emails to Dick Konrad at WKBT are going unanswered, so I thought I'd ask here.

Anyone have any idea when WKBT-DT will be going full-powered?

Originally posted by sregener
Well, spring is officially here and my emails to Dick Konrad at WKBT are going unanswered, so I thought I'd ask here.

Anyone have any idea when WKBT-DT will be going full-powered?

Haven't heard anything yet. Waiting to put up my shiny new 4228....

I live on the northside of La Crosse and a couple of months ago Voom approved me for an antenna upgrade so I could get channel 13, WEAU, Eau Claire. Before his appointment, the installer called me and said that I would never get ch. 13 because he had tried in my area and that I should switch to Dish so I could get all my locals. I cancelled the install because I didn't want someone like that doing work on my antenna. Two weeks ago I put up my own Channel Master 4228, the first time I have ever tried to install an antenna. It went perfect and, bam!, I had ch. 13 after moving the antenna once.

When Voom is gone in a couple of weeks I will go strictly with ota, using an LG 4200a. I am happy to have NBC now ota so I now also drop my basic Charter cable.
Channel 8 comes in good for me, but I am only about 17 miles away.

Originally posted by elocs
I live on the northside of La Crosse and a couple of months ago Voom approved me for an antenna upgrade so I could get channel 13, WEAU, Eau Claire. Before his appointment, the installer called me and said that I would never get ch. 13 because he had tried in my area and that I should switch to Dish so I could get all my locals. I cancelled the install because I didn't want someone like that doing work on my antenna. Two weeks ago I put up my own Channel Master 4228, the first time I have ever tried to install an antenna. It went perfect and, bam!, I had ch. 13 after moving the antenna once.

When Voom is gone in a couple of weeks I will go strictly with ota, using an LG 4200a. I am happy to have NBC now ota so I now also drop my basic Charter cable.
Channel 8 comes in good for me, but I am only about 17 miles away.

Hey elocs,

Do you get the FOX 25 digital channel from where you are? Is the 480i SD picture look any better than their analog picture? FOX 48 in Eau Claire always has a worse analog picture than the rest of the channels. I'm hoping that their digital channel will at least look a little better. It really is a shame that there is no FOX HD whatsoever. I'm hoping that I might have a shot at the FOX 9 digital channel when I put my 4228 up.

Originally posted by jimboeau
Hey elocs,

Do you get the FOX 25 digital channel from where you are? Is the 480i SD picture look any better than their analog picture? FOX 48 in Eau Claire always has a worse analog picture than the rest of the channels. I'm hoping that their digital channel will at least look a little better. It really is a shame that there is no FOX HD whatsoever. I'm hoping that I might have a shot at the FOX 9 digital channel when I put my 4228 up.

Yes, I get Fox 25. I think it came on at Super Bowl time and the digital picture does look better than the analog picture that I get from Charter cable. Better, but not spectacular. I was happy to get Fox on my Voom receiver and channel 13 was the only one I lacked. I had already decided to pull the plug on Voom the week before they announced the shutdown. It was kind of a lifestyle change and I decided to stop having to pay for my tv content. I was very happy with how easy it was to get the 4228 up and set in about an hour seeing as how I had never put up an antenna before.

elocs-

Have you talked to Fox 25 to let them know you are frustrated that they are not broadcasting High Definition, and that the digital is only marginally better than the analog?
Every time I write they make me feel like I am the only person in the area that even cares.

Originally posted by Micah008
elocs-

Have you talked to Fox 25 to let them know you are frustrated that they are not broadcasting High Definition, and that the digital is only marginally better than the analog?
Every time I write they make me feel like I am the only person in the area that even cares.

No, I have not. I guess I was happy just to get it at all on my Voom receiver, but soon that will not matter. It seems like overall Fox is not that interested in HD.
So although the picture is a little better than analog, I cannot say I am frustrated.
You may be the only person in the area who cares.

Originally posted by elocs
No, I have not. I guess I was happy just to get it at all on my Voom receiver, but soon that will not matter. It seems like overall Fox is not that interested in HD.
So although the picture is a little better than analog, I cannot say I am frustrated.
You may be the only person in the area who cares.

Let me add, that I appreciate your efforts, but I am not a HD snob. I am more concerned with content. I am fairly easily satisfied if the picture is decent. I grew up with b&w tv using rabbit ears with tinfoil strung between them, watching a ghosty picture. I have a 13 year old daughter who thinks that anything in b&w is inferior to color, regardless of content. I cannot go along with those who claim they will not watch anything unless it is in HD. I am cutting back on my tv viewing, but to do that would be severe.

Originally posted by Micah008
elocs-

Have you talked to Fox 25 to let them know you are frustrated that they are not broadcasting High Definition, and that the digital is only marginally better than the analog?
Every time I write they make me feel like I am the only person in the area that even cares.

I have written to their engineer numerous times and most of the time he responds. Mainly he just complains how costly everything is. When I asked him why they would spend all the money for SD digital equipment and not just get HD digital equipment he said that FOX told him that they would never be doing HD. It was obvious that at some point they would go HD as all the other networks already were. It really is too bad that this FOX affiliate is so backwards and poor that they spend a bunch of money on outdated equipment that isn't even in place yet.

Originally posted by elocs
It seems like overall Fox is not that interested in HD.
So although the picture is a little better than analog, I cannot say I am frustrated.
You may be the only person in the area who cares.

Fox25/48 may not be that interested in HD. The Fox network is dedicated to the idea of HD, jumping in with both feet last September. Almost every NFC game last year was broadcast in HD, and it's almost certain that the same thing will happen this year. American Idol, House, and several other top-rated shows are in HD, with more going live all the time.

Part of the problem for Fox25/48 is their ownership - Sex.com lost a lawsuit to Yahoo a couple of years ago that they'd sunk millions of dollars on. They still haven't recovered, which is why the FCC repeatedly granted them extensions due to financial hardship. Quite literally, the cost of HD equipment would have bankrupted them.

Fox has done the best job of any network in providing their stations with HD equipment for receiving and using HD content. They implemented a "pass-thru" solution that doesn't require any specialized equipment (decoders/encoders) to put out an HD signal. All the station needs to buy is a second microwave link (or a clever multiplexing on their primary one) from their station to the transmitter. Fox has also put a lot of pressure on affiliates to get with the HD program.

Originally posted by sregener
Fox25/48 may not be that interested in HD. The Fox network is dedicated to the idea of HD, jumping in with both feet last September. Almost every NFC game last year was broadcast in HD, and it's almost certain that the same thing will happen this year. American Idol, House, and several other top-rated shows are in HD, with more going live all the time.

Part of the problem for Fox25/48 is their ownership - Sex.com lost a lawsuit to Yahoo a couple of years ago that they'd sunk millions of dollars on. They still haven't recovered, which is why the FCC repeatedly granted them extensions due to financial hardship. Quite literally, the cost of HD equipment would have bankrupted them.

Fox has done the best job of any network in providing their stations with HD equipment for receiving and using HD content. They implemented a "pass-thru" solution that doesn't require any specialized equipment (decoders/encoders) to put out an HD signal. All the station needs to buy is a second microwave link (or a clever multiplexing on their primary one) from their station to the transmitter. Fox has also put a lot of pressure on affiliates to get with the HD program.

If you live in this area, Fox 25/48 is Fox for you--there's no other choice. Perhaps complaints should be made to the network about their affiliate since Fox 25/48 does not seem very responsive.

Originally posted by elocs
If you live in this area, Fox 25/48 is Fox for you--there's no other choice. Perhaps complaints should be made to the network about their affiliate since Fox 25/48 does not seem very responsive.

If you're in La Crosse, you're probably right. But at the edges of the Eau Claire/La Crosse market, there are alternatives. Madison, Minneapolis, and Rochester Fox stations are all possible with the right setup for some people. And even then, things might not be so bad as you think. I live in Rochester, and I get a (very fuzzy) picture for Fox25 and a very viewable picture from Fox48. If WEUX-DT was running at 50kw like WHWC-DT is, I'd probably get them since I do get WHWC-DT. At full power, I fully expect to get WEUX-DT. I get WHLA-DT 24x7, and they're only 50kw from the same tower farm as WLAX, so maybe I'd even have a shot at them some day.

I don't know that any complaints to anybody is going to make a difference. Either the current owners sell the stations or they go bankrupt trying to implement HD.

Originally posted by sregener
If you're in La Crosse, you're probably right. But at the edges of the Eau Claire/La Crosse market, there are alternatives. Madison, Minneapolis, and Rochester Fox stations are all possible with the right setup for some people.

Thanks Sregener for all your great posts. I live on the south side of Eau Claire. I am planning to put up a 4228 or equivalent antenna as soon as WKBT goes full power so I can stop paying Charter $10 a month for their 3 hd locals. (Hopefully WKBT will go full strength soon) Do you think there is a chance I will be able to pick up KMSP or the Rochester FOX station in HD from my location? I remember reading something you wrote that said KMSP was your 2nd most reliable channel next to CCO. I will be mounting it on top of the roof and there are no trees in my way to the west. BTW have you heard any news on WKBT yet? Thanks......

Originally posted by jimboeau
Do you think there is a chance I will be able to pick up KMSP or the Rochester FOX station in HD from my location? I remember reading something you wrote that said KMSP was your 2nd most reliable channel next to CCO. I will be mounting it on top of the roof and there are no trees in my way to the west. BTW have you heard any news on WKBT yet? Thanks......

Last things first... No word from WKBT, and we're one month into spring. Only two to go before they miss their "promised" deadline on the SBE website.

Honestly, I don't know if you'd be able to pick up KMSP from Eau Claire. I wouldn't bet on KXLT, because they're only at 55kw (directional) or so at this point. Once you're "over the horizon" all bets are off as far as knowing what will or won't work in your location. If you're relatively high up compared to surrounding topography, you have as good a chance as I do at KMSP, maybe slightly better. Check out their predicted contours here:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT509417.html

The downside for you is that you're close to some UHF transmitters, so a preamplifier is going to have to be pretty resistant to overload for it to work for you. I'm almost 30 miles from my closest one. Winegards are reported to be a little less prone to overload than Channel Masters, so you might have better luck with a Winegard preamp, if you decide to go that route.

The 4228 is a fine antenna, but it's a bear on residential-grade rotors. They just put too much torque on the motor. Personally, I'd recommend the AntennasDirect 91XG if you want to do any long-distance stuff with a rotor. (It also works like a champ on all my local signals.)

Originally posted by jimboeau
Thanks Sregener for all your great posts. I live on the south side of Eau Claire. I am planning to put up a 4228 or equivalent antenna as soon as WKBT goes full power so I can stop paying Charter $10 a month for their 3 hd locals. (Hopefully WKBT will go full strength soon) Do you think there is a chance I will be able to pick up KMSP or the Rochester FOX station in HD from my location? I remember reading something you wrote that said KMSP was your 2nd most reliable channel next to CCO. I will be mounting it on top of the roof and there are no trees in my way to the west. BTW have you heard any news on WKBT yet? Thanks......

We are in kind of opposite ends of the same boat. I put up a CM 4228 so I could get WEAU DT in La Crosse and drop Charter cable. I wonder if I could get the Rochester Fox station in La Crosse? That's kind of pathetic when you are looking to get a network affiliate in another city when you have one in yours.

Originally posted by elocs
I wonder if I could get the Rochester Fox station in La Crosse? That's kind of pathetic when you are looking to get a network affiliate in another city when you have one in yours.

You have a better chance at getting KTTC-DT, and I'd try for that one first. It's on channel 36. They're much closer to full power. If you get them and don't get KXLT, then all you have to do is wait for KXLT to boost their power levels.

I agree it's sad that people need to get distant networks to get what they want. I had to watch KMSP for the whole football season because KXLT didn't go HD until the Super Bowl. On the flip side, I still have problems with KXLT and timeshifting, as they seem to have some kind of macrovision thing going on it - I use a Samsung tied to my ReplayTV to record digital stuff, and *ONLY* KXLT (out of 18 stations) causes problems with it. Requests for help from the engineer have yielded nothing but "We made sure we did it right. Sorry you're having trouble."

From La Crosse, you have to clear those bluffs, which is a tough job. But if you're high enough, there's no reason why you couldn't do what I'm doing in reverse.

Originally posted by sregener
You have a better chance at getting KTTC-DT, and I'd try for that one first. It's on channel 36. They're much closer to full power. If you get them and don't get KXLT, then all you have to do is wait for KXLT to boost their power levels.

I agree it's sad that people need to get distant networks to get what they want. I had to watch KMSP for the whole football season because KXLT didn't go HD until the Super Bowl. On the flip side, I still have problems with KXLT and timeshifting, as they seem to have some kind of macrovision thing going on it - I use a Samsung tied to my ReplayTV to record digital stuff, and *ONLY* KXLT (out of 18 stations) causes problems with it. Requests for help from the engineer have yielded nothing but "We made sure we did it right. Sorry you're having trouble."

From La Crosse, you have to clear those bluffs, which is a tough job. But if you're high enough, there's no reason why you couldn't do what I'm doing in reverse.

It's too bad that KTTC-DT does not broadcast through their uhf tower just 6 miles from me, but my CM 4228 picked up WEAU-DT right away. I am almost right next to the Mississippi River, so those Minnesota bluffs loom large. I at least get Fox 25 good enough so I can cut the cable cord. It does not sound like complaints to anybody does much good.
I will be getting my LG 4200a next week, so I will then get o see how my ota line-up looks in anticipation of the post Voom era.

Originally posted by elocs
It's too bad that KTTC-DT does not broadcast through their uhf tower just 6 miles from me, but my CM 4228 picked up WEAU-DT right away.

KTTC probably will broadcast from that tower, but only after the analog shutoff. It doesn't appear that many translators will be permitted to switch over to digital until that point, and it will be an instant "cut" with no dual-transmission time period.

Originally posted by sregener
KTTC probably will broadcast from that tower, but only after the analog shutoff. It doesn't appear that many translators will be permitted to switch over to digital until that point, and it will be an instant "cut" with no dual-transmission time period.

I wonder if the analog shutoff will ever actually get here? It seems it is getting pushed back all the time.

I might be moving to La Crosse soon. Is there any pressure on Charter to get more HD channels?

Originally posted by Feddie
I might be moving to La Crosse soon. Is there any pressure on Charter to get more HD channels?

I don't think there is much pressure on Charter, but it is hard to tell. Their ads push their digital package along with their dvr. I cancelled Charter altogether a couple of weeks ago and have gone ota only. They just sent me my final billing--6 cents. Can you believe it? They spent the postage to send me a bill for 6 cents, so I wrote them a check and dropped it off. They can also spend the money to process a check for 6 cents.

Sorry, I don't have a need to watch football anymore, although growing up here in Wisconsin in the early '60s we had a rather well known team that still gets a lot of airtime:) What football I get ota is good enough for me. If you need all the football there is to have you should be willing to pay what they ask to get it.
If they cannot get their asking price from enough subscribers, they might lower it. Might it be there are too few hd subscribers to make a difference?
The way this country is going, protesting not getting satellite football in hd is pretty low on my list of things to protest. I should get busy on that list again.

I just hope that when I write to Charter telling them that they need a lot more HD, I am not the first person to complain.

Originally posted by Feddie
I just hope that when I write to Charter telling them that they need a lot more HD, I am not the first person to complain.

First, let me say that although I have no intention of going with Charter again I believe they should have more hd. But Voom hd programming aside, how much hd programming is there out there? Why does Charter "need" more hd? Remember that I think they should have more hd, but La Crosse is not a hotbed of hdtv, so what argument could be made to them that they need more hd? I do not know of anyone else who has hdtv, so although you might not be the first to complain, you might be among the first.

Originally posted by elocs
First, let me say that although I have no intention of going with Charter again I believe they should have more hd. But Voom hd programming aside, how much hd programming is there out there? Why does Charter "need" more hd? Remember that I think they should have more hd, but La Crosse is not a hotbed of hdtv, so what argument could be made to them that they need more hd? I do not know of anyone else who has hdtv, so although you might not be the first to complain, you might be among the first.
I don't understand why you would have HD service with so few channels. They could have all of the HD movie channels, and it appears they don't have Discovery, TNT, ESPN2 (I know hardly anyone does), Universal, INHD1&2, or NFL Network. I just want as many channels as possible.

Did Charter do something that resulted in you not wanting their service again?

Originally posted by Feddie
I don't understand why you would have HD service with so few channels. They could have all of the HD movie channels, and it appears they don't have Discovery, TNT, ESPN2 (I know hardly anyone does), Universal, INHD1&2, or NFL Network. I just want as many channels as possible.

Did Charter do something that resulted in you not wanting their service again?

As Voom was winding down I decided on a lifestyle change--no need for 57 channels and nothing's on with constant surfing in search of a better program. I have free ota hd now and have no need for Charter.
If I ever decide I want more channels than ota I will go with satellite again. If you want lots of hd channels it looks like Dish is the place to go since they got Voom's hd channels.

Originally posted by elocs
As Voom was winding down I decided on a lifestyle change--no need for 57 channels and nothing's on with constant surfing in search of a better program. I have free ota hd now and have no need for Charter.
If I ever decide I want more channels than ota I will go with satellite again. If you want lots of hd channels it looks like Dish is the place to go since they got Voom's hd channels.
I guess I will just have to see what the best deal is if/when I move there. I'm probably going to want to wait and see what happens with the mpeg4 transition. It looks like ABC, CBS, and NBC are what can be picked up HD OTA, with no Fox yet.

Originally posted by Feddie
It looks like ABC, CBS, and NBC are what can be picked up HD OTA, with no Fox yet.

You forgot PBS. Wisconsin Public Television multicasts PBS HD as well as their analog signal. WHLA-DT in La Crosse seems to sign off in the early morning, but WHWC-DT in Eau Claire stays on 24x7. I get both from SE Minnesota, so you'd be almost sure to get one.

Originally posted by Feddie
I guess I will just have to see what the best deal is if/when I move there. I'm probably going to want to wait and see what happens with the mpeg4 transition. It looks like ABC, CBS, and NBC are what can be picked up HD OTA, with no Fox yet.

Yes, and also PBS which multicasts an sd and hd channel which usually show different programs. Fox is digital and not hd yet. The NBC channel (out of Eau Claire) is problematic because it is 58 miles to the NE of La Crosse while the others are to the NW and SW and much closer. An antenna would need a rotor,or in my case I use 2 antennas with an A/B switch. I have a Voom ota antenna (SquareShooter) which picks up everything except NBC. I put up a CM 4228 to pick up NBC out of Eau Claire which finally allowed me to cancel Charter since I was paying $13 a month just to get NBC in sd.
I use an LG Lst 4200a hd receiver to get ota hd.

Hello,

I tried reading through all the posts, but I didn't see that anyone mentioned that Charter carries all the HD channels locally but not pbs in HD just in SD.

They also carry all the Twin Cities stations(in SD again), I have no idea why. But they do.

BTW they are all QAM encoded though.

Hello,

I tried reading through all the posts, but I didn't see that anyone mentioned that Charter carries all the HD channels locally but not pbs in HD just in SD.

They also carry all the Twin Cities stations(in SD again), I have no idea why. But they do.

BTW they are all QAM encoded though.

I noticed that myself. I have a sony lcd tv with a built-in atsc and qam tuner. I did a rescan the other day and noticed that I now get wcco, kstp, kare, tpt, and wftc now, but I did not notice Fox-9. Are you able to get fox9?

They do carry nbc, cbs, and abc in HD. I sure hope they add Fox in HD before football and baseball playoffs begin.

Nope no Fox 9 either.

Nice tv btw.

I don't see any of those channels on the moxi HD box I have. Do I need to have a seperate tuner..??? BTW I live on french island...

For those of you waiting for FOX 55 in Wausau to go digital if you do a search on www.antennaweb.org and use the Stevens Point zip 54481 they have a live date posted of 03-06. I know that is almost a year away but anything is better then nothing. I will see if i can get a reply back from the station engineer and keep everyone posted.

Dave

From a reliable source, I've heard that WKBT-DT won't be putting up their full-power transmitter until late summer at the earliest. This means they won't make the spring 05 date they posted on the SBE website last fall.

Sorry about the false alarm on 55 going digital. Here is the email reply i received back

No truth at all.. Sorry...
March 2006 was a projected schedule for the FCC to grant digital channels to the 200+ stations that do not yet have them. That includes us. Just last week that scheduled date was possibly pushed back to August.

Once the FCC grants a channel allocation, it could take up to a year to get it built. There would be a couple of months of FCC applications and modifications, then we'd order the transmitter and antenna. Then, given the Wisconsin weather, installation on the tower is limited from October thru March due to ice and snow.

As soon as we have anything close to a firm schedule we'll be the ones that announce it.. All these private websites do is guess based on little snippets of information that's made public.

From a reliable source, I've heard that WKBT-DT won't be putting up their full-power transmitter until late summer at the earliest. This means they won't make the spring 05 date they posted on the SBE website last fall.

Any reason given? Other than I suppose money.....

Any reason given? Other than I suppose money.....

Dick Konrad (chief engineer) isn't answering my emails these days. I have to get my information second-hand, so I don't have any good reasons. I might go to an SBE meeting later in the year (schedule conflicts keep me from going now) and see if I can get more detailed info then.

I do know that demand for tower work has climbed dramatically as the 7/1/05 deadline hits for top-4 affiliates in the top 100 markets. It is possible that WKBT has either given up their place in line to stations facing this deadline or were set back by a rise in price related to the high demand. WKBT deserves some kudos for not waiting until the last minute to get their station up to full power (they have until 7/1/06.) Tower work is a very delicate thing, and delays can crop up overnight. I know of at least three tower failures since the digital transition started, so I'm sure crews are very careful not to go up in bad weather.

I've noticed that the SBE website has not been updated since early April. I've always wanted to go to one of those meetings as well. I guess I should be happy I can receive WKBT-DT at all, albeit via charter basic cable which I would like to get rid of. The local FOX station on the other hand I doubt will be doing any HD until 2009, if then.

Do you know if there is a chance that Congress would pass something that would allow people to get a waiver for receiving FOX HD via satellite if the local station is not offering it? I thoiught I read something about that once

Do you know if there is a chance that Congress would pass something that would allow people to get a waiver for receiving FOX HD via satellite if the local station is not offering it? I thoiught I read something about that once

Yes, HD (that is, digital) waivers do exist today.

Is today the day for WKBT? I can't get anything on analog 8, which could mean they're using the side transmitter while tower work is going on. And I got my first lock ever of WKBT-DT, though not a very strong one. (crosses fingers)

If the HD waivers do in fact exist, has anyone been able to receive one in the La Crosse area?

I will let you know if i get one from Fox 55 in Wausau.

Is today the day for WKBT? I can't get anything on analog 8, which could mean they're using the side transmitter while tower work is going on. And I got my first lock ever of WKBT-DT, though not a very strong one. (crosses fingers)

Well it looks like WKBT at least got rid of that god-awful stretch thing they did whenever they had sd material on the air. In my opinion it was brutal. The last two days they have had all their sd material 4x3.

Were you correct that they are now full power?

I was declined on the HD wavier from Fox 55 & DirectTV. I did send an email to the station engineer who has been very helpful in the past.

Well it looks like WKBT at least got rid of that god-awful stretch thing they did whenever they had sd material on the air. In my opinion it was brutal. The last two days they have had all their sd material 4x3.

Were you correct that they are now full power?

It doesn't appear so. However, I'm guessing they do have their transmitter up near the peak of the tower now. I don't know how else to explain getting locks (I've had more since my post a week and a half ago.) However, I'm not getting a signal anywhere near as strong as WHLA-DT (50kw) or even WEAU-DT (500kw, but almost 20 miles further away.) Thus, I suspect that they are still operating at low power, perhaps because they don't have the equipment installed or delivered that would be necessary to increase the transmitting power.

For those who are closer than I am (nearly 60 miles) and have been on the borderline for getting WKBT-DT, I'd strongly suggest they try again.

Well it looks like WKBT at least got rid of that god-awful stretch thing they did whenever they had sd material on the air. In my opinion it was brutal. The last two days they have had all their sd material 4x3.

It doesn't look like this is the case. They still are stretching during times that are not prime time. I have talked to their engineer and he refuses to change it unless the Madison station changes. The only "exception" they make is from 7 to 11:30 pm.

It doesn't look like this is the case. They still are stretching during times that are not prime time. I have talked to their engineer and he refuses to change it unless the Madison station changes. The only "exception" they make is from 7 to 11:30 pm.

Yea, I noticed that too. There was one week about 3 weeks ago that all the sd material was 4x3 24/7 but then the next week it was back to the stretch. I don't know if they forgot to pull the switch or were testing or what but I wish they would knock it off. The stretch makes it virtually unwatchable whenever 4x3 content is on.

Which Madison station is he talking about?

Which Madison station is he talking about?
I believe he is talking about the Madison CBS. He makes it sound like they are under the same ownership (or management) and that the station here can't make any decisions for themselves.

What HD stations do you guys get through charter in La Crosse? Here in Eau Claire we get WKBT CBS, WEAU NBC, and WQOW ABC. No word on when the local fox will go digital. We also only get HDnet HD movies and espnHD. I wish we were able to get more HD stations.

What HD stations do you guys get through charter in La Crosse? Here in Eau Claire we get WKBT CBS, WEAU NBC, and WQOW ABC. No word on when the local fox will go digital. We also only get HDnet HD movies and espnHD. I wish we were able to get more HD stations.We get essentially the same thing... only WXOW for ABC since that is the La Crosse station.

Even when your local Fox goes digital, they will not go HD right away... which means it will not change anything about what you get through Charter. (Charter refuses to re-broadcast until it is true HD) This has been the case here anyway.

I'm sure its just wishful thinking but right now on Fox 25 there is a black screen with the following message:

FCC TEST IN PROGRESS
CHANNEL WILL RETURN MOMENTARILY

Sure would be something if they were testing some new equipment...

WEAU 13.1 appears to be off the air again. It was off Thursday night, on for part of Friday, but off again last night and is still off the air now.

WEAU was working for the second half of the ND game today. I hope their problems are solved soon.

From the Chief Engineer at WEAU:

9/16: The transmitter had a component failure. Yesterday was spent trouble shooting. Hopefully the part we expect in todaywill restore us to normal operation

9/22: The digital is back up but we are running on half power due to a failed component which is backordered. Expect full power in about a week.

Has anyone had any luck get this station from central wisconsin. I've been trying with a small radio shack antenna and I'm getting 30% from wisconsin rapids. I want to know if anyone has had luck with something before I go out and spend a lot of money on something that isn't going to work.

Has anyone tried to get the fox feed from Madison. I seen it on channel 11 which is VHF. From what I heard that VHF can carry farther. I'm sick of not getting the Packers in HD. I'm from Wisconsin Rapids.

Nice to see another person from Rapids on the forum. I'm pissed at Fox 55 for being so slow also. Do you have an outdoor antenna in the attic, roof or tower. I have tried on two 50 foot towers with no luck. Both were older setups which might not pull things in the best. I know on more person from Mosinee trying to get WLUX with no luck too. I have been able to get channel two in Green Bay but no Fox. I'm not sure how Madison would come in it doesn't sound like there sending the best signal either. I have pulled in one analog station but was nothing but snow for the most part.

I talked to a person at fox 55 and it sounds like they will never go hd. I have an outdoor antenna about 35 feet in the air. I tried the biggest antenna from radio shack and it didn't help. I have been testing with the big one tonight and I'm getting WLUK right now but it doesn't seem to come in during the day when they go back on at 3. The Madison fox I think is a lost cause. I ordered a channel master 8 bay antenna to see if it helps. I think I need to do some tweaking to my antenna set up as well. I think I need a better pre amp and the RG-6 cable I bought seems cheap.

I'm getting WBAY-ABC channel 2 at 86%, WLUK-FOX channel 11 at 45%, WGBA-NBC channel 26 at 81%, WACY-UPN at 45%. I'm not getting anything from WFRV but I think its because they are doing some changes. I noticed tonight that my antenna is pointing up towards the sky so I'm going to do some adjustments to that. Let me know what everyone else is getting from Green Bay.

Where are you located in Rapids? Do you have a clean line of site? I have one big tree in the direction of Green Bay that might be causing my problems.

If you want to replace your coax head over to the WCTC building on Chase & Express Way they have Belden RG6 on large spools cheaper than Rat Shack. I have the big CM 4228 8-bay up now with the 7777 preamp running and have great reception with Channel 9, 7, 13 and PBS 20. What OTA tuner are you using?

I'm over by the airport. I think I've cleared the trees that are closest to my house. I'm using the h-10 from directv. Do you think the tuner has any effect on reception? I have perfect signal with 7.9. and 20 and about 85% on 13 when pointed in between wausau and eau claire. Thats the antenna I just ordered so I hope it will help.

I'm using the h-10 from directv. Do you think the tuner has any effect on reception?

Absolutely, positively, no doubts about it. But the H10 isn't bad.

I'm using an older RCA DTC100 and played with a MyHD PC tuner card. At my old house with a roof top antenna I used the 4 bay with the Wausau stations and the 8 bay for Eau Claire. Now at my new house i only use the 8 bay pointed between Wausau and Eau Claire with no change in Wausau and better reception for 13, weird. I just ordered a Channel Master telescopic 50 mast to try a new location. I might have things going in a few weeks. I sure hope this gets me FOX 11 for the Packer games.

Dave

I'm done trying. Everytime I change something with my antenna its stays the same or gets worse. I'm begininng to think that the power WLUK is producing is just not strong enought to reach this far. Thats why I can get the siganl at night but not during the day.

I'm done trying. Everytime I change something with my antenna its stays the same or gets worse. I'm begininng to think that the power WLUK is producing is just not strong enought to reach this far. Thats why I can get the siganl at night but not during the day.

UHF reception often improves at night. I fare much better once the sun sets. Theories abound as to why this is, but for long-distance, over-the-horizon reception, sunset is when things start to improve, and get about as good as they'll get for the night about one hour after sunset. FWIW, reception improves dramatically with snow cover...

WEAU now back at full power: (update from their Chief Engineer)

"Just to update on transmitter power.
As a result of component failure almost two weeks ago, we had to reduce output power to 50%. Many would not have noticed unless you are on the fringe or have minimum receiving antenna. We went back to full power(half a million watts) on Friday. Hope you didn't notice."

"Just to update on transmitter power.
As a result of component failure almost two weeks ago, we had to reduce output power to 50%. Many would not have noticed unless you are on the fringe or have minimum receiving antenna. We went back to full power(half a million watts) on Friday. Hope you didn't notice."

I noticed that WEAU-DT still came in much better than WKBT-DT, in spite of being 30 miles further away... But it did seem harder to lock and hold from Rochester, MN. :-)

I noticed that WEAU-DT still came in much better than WKBT-DT, in spite of being 30 miles further away... But it did seem harder to lock and hold from Rochester, MN. :-)

Did WKBT-DT up the strength at all? I didn't think you could get it all from Rochester. Any new news on FOX 25/48?

Did WKBT-DT up the strength at all? I didn't think you could get it all from Rochester. Any new news on FOX 25/48?

I don't think WKBT-DT, in spite of my earlier optimism, has done a thing. I've gotten WKBT-DT to lock a few times, but that was when I was getting a lot of help from the troposphere. We're also past their "late summer" estimate for going full powered.

WLAX/WEUX are as uncommunicative as usual. I'm guessing neither will put up a full-powered signal (or anything close to it) until the FCC forces them to, and the FCC has been *very* understanding about WLAX/WEUX's financial situation. I'm not holding out any hope until 2009...

I think I'm going to have to either get a waiver for digital FOX when it becomes available on DISH or "move" to the Twin Cities DMA once Dish or Direct have LIL HD.

Mixed news on WKBT. Work has begun on the tower... but...

Apparently there are two phases to going full power. The new, high-gain, omnidirectional antenna is in the process of being installed. The new transmitter (the thing that feeds the signal to the antenna) isn't slated to be in place until next year. At this point, they don't know what the ERP of the new antenna with the old transmitter will be, but it will likely be a wash (new antenna minus much longer feed line.) What this means is that they will soon be covering a larger area with their low-powered signal, but they will not likely replicate analog coverage, or even approach it, until some time in 2006.

Those of you watching the analog channel will soon see a drop in signal as they switch to a different antenna structure (lower power and lower antenna height) during the new antenna install. Working on towers is dangerous enough without the risk of electrocution. Once the new digital antenna is installed, analog service will return to normal.

For the last 2 nights I have had an audio problem on the movies on channel 19 in La Crosse. On "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "Catch Me If You Can" there is soundtrack audio, but no dialogue audio. When the commercials come on the audio is normal.

Tonight on channel 13 from Eau Claire the audio had an echo to it all the time. Earlier in the day it was fine. This has occurred on both my Voom HD receiver and my LG 4200a. Has anyone else experienced this?

I'm the chief at WXOW (19)... thought I could shed some light on this...

This was no fault of your receiver, but a problem up here that we didn't catch with our Dolby gear. We currently only have one half of the necessary Dobly gear to handle full 5.1 audio. We purchased a required Dolby decoder when ABC upgraded their satellite delivery infrastructure this past summer. Unfortunately, we don't have a dolby 5.1 encoder yet to get it into our broadcast stream, so we need to downconvert the audio in the Dolby box to AC-3 so that we can feed it into our digital encoder (what creates 19.1, 19.2 and sometimes 19.3... when we are allowed to show anything on it!).

The problem we had is that the Dolby box reset itself and was pumping out full 5.1 audio (when available... such as during your aforementioned movies) to our encoder. Unfortunately, it only can handle AC-3... so it results in what you heard... great ambient noise... no dialogue. Commercials and other non-5.1 audio is fine. We were notified of the issue last night and corrected it immediately (simple as pushing a button). Sorry we didn't catch it sooner. From here on out, I'm having my operators listen for this problem. Hopefully, it was just a burp in the system. -Jarrett

Anyone have problems with WAOW-DT last night? I at first thought that it was my reciever (Dish 811), but all the other channels were fine....

Tonight on channel 13 from Eau Claire the audio had an echo to it all the time. Earlier in the day it was fine. This has occurred on both my Voom HD receiver and my LG 4200a. Has anyone else experienced this?
I had the same thing happen on WEAU-DT (through a Charter Moxi box). It was very annoying during Saturday Night Live. I was actually able to get around it by unplugging all of my speakers except the center channel, which made it pretty much go away.

I sent an email to the Chief Engineer up there about the issue, and got the following response:

"I noticed it Sun. morning when I came in. Found it to be in the encoder which generates the program signal to the transmitter. A reboot actually took care of the problem." - WEAU Chief Engineer

I'm the chief at WXOW (19)... thought I could shed some light on this... Thanks Jarrett! Glad to see you out here, and responding to things!! Keep us posted on switching over to 5.1

FYI: WKBT has hired a new Chief Engineer. It looks like Dick Konrad retired. The new guy was on the news last night talking a little about the new transmitter and improvements they are making. (And the issues with the signal actually being worse in the short term)

First, thanks to those who provided answers to the audio problems I was having on channels 19 and 13.
Channel 13's HD feed has been off the last 2 days.
I don't know if it has been the high winds lately or what. It is off on both of my receivers, but I can get the SD feed on my LG 4200a.

I have a couple of other questions. One concerns my PBS station in La Crosse, channel 31. I have a widescreen tv and when there is an HD feed both 31.1 and 31.2 are showing the black bars. Previously, if both were showing the same program, one would be letterboxed and one would not. Is Wisconsin Public Television showing HD anymore?

I know there have been a lot of issues with Fox and my local channel 25 is no exception. I can get a lock on my other channels (8, 19, 13, and 31), but channel 25 is flakey and sometimes just drops out even though I am only about 6 miles from the tower.
I am right by the Black River on the northside of La Crosse and it is a clear shot to the bluffs across the rivers in Minnesota. It has been an adjustment going from cable and satellite with all the channels to just a handfull of locals, so I would at least like the ones available to come in.

I have a couple of other questions. One concerns my PBS station in La Crosse, channel 31. I have a widescreen tv and when there is an HD feed both 31.1 and 31.2 are showing the black bars. Previously, if both were showing the same program, one would be letterboxed and one would not. Is Wisconsin Public Television showing HD anymore?

I know there have been a lot of issues with Fox and my local channel 25 is no exception. I can get a lock on my other channels (8, 19, 13, and 31), but channel 25 is flakey and sometimes just drops out even though I am only about 6 miles from the tower.

I don't check La Crosse signals out often, but I just checked. WEAU-DT comes in fine here in Rochester today.

WHWC-DT and WHLA-DT are showing the same 480i programming on -1 and -2 subchannels, so I'd say they're not doing HD at the moment.

Although WLAX-DT is very low power, they should reach your address. What kind of antenna are you using? Are you using any amplifiers/splitters/etc.? You're not missing much with WLAX-DT, though. No HD from them.

I am using a SquareShooter to pick up WLAX channel 25. It's the antenna that I got with Voom, but although channel 25 was not available digital at that time I thought that its antenna was near those for channels 19 and 31--on the Minnesota bluffs just about 6 miles to the southwest of me. Channels 19 and 31 come in just fine. Actually, when I had Voom I was able to pick up channel 8 with the SquareShooter, but cannot any longer. To pick up WKBT I must use my ChannelMaster 4228 which I put up to pick up WEAU out of Eau Claire. WLAX may not be digital, but along with channels 8, 19, 31, and 13 it is one of the only channels I get.

I am using a SquareShooter to pick up WLAX channel 25. It's the antenna that I got with Voom, but although channel 25 was not available digital at that time I thought that its antenna was near those for channels 19 and 31--on the Minnesota bluffs just about 6 miles to the southwest of me. Channels 19 and 31 come in just fine. Actually, when I had Voom I was able to pick up channel 8 with the SquareShooter, but cannot any longer. To pick up WKBT I must use my ChannelMaster 4228 which I put up to pick up WEAU out of Eau Claire. WLAX may not be digital, but along with channels 8, 19, 31, and 13 it is one of the only channels I get.

How are you connecting the two antennas?

WLAX-DT is at 2.65kw. WXOW is at 50kw. Both antennas are mounted at the base of their towers. WHLA is near the top of its tower and is at 50kw. So you need a little more horsepower to get WLAX-DT due to its lower power.

I understand about WLAX being one of the channels you should get. I was just saying that getting WLAX analog 25 is probably no worse than what you'd see on WLAX-DT at this point.

My 2 antennas (a SquareShooter and a ChannelMaster 4228) are not joined, but I use an A/B switch to go from one to another. The SquareShooter gets channels 19, 25, and 31. The ChannelMaster picks up channels 8 and 13 although I put it up just to get 13. My LG 4200a also outputs analog and WLAX is worse analog than it is digital. WEAU channel 13 hd still shows no signal, but comes in analog.

My LG 4200a also outputs analog and WLAX is worse analog than it is digital. WEAU channel 13 hd still shows no signal, but comes in analog.

I just checked WEAU again, and it still comes in here, so there's been a change in your setup. We had some strong winds this past week - is it possible your antenna got blown off line?

Nothing on WKBT-DT these days - I assume they're still doing their tower work.

WHWC-DT and WHLA-DT are showing the same 480i programming on -1 and -2 subchannels, so I'd say they're not doing HD at the moment. From what I have heard, all of the PBS stations in WI are currently upgrading their equipment and are not broadcasting anything in HD.
Ironically, Charter just started offering PBS HD through their HD teir, just in time for there to be no HD on it.

WEAU-DT has been fine for me too. (Through Charter)

Nothing on WKBT-DT these days - I assume they're still doing their tower work.WKBT-DT is working fine for me. (Through Charter, but all Charter does is grab the signal out of the air, and re-broadcast it).

quote: WLAX-DT is at 2.65kw. WXOW is at 50kw. Both antennas are mounted at the base of their towers. WHLA is near the top of its tower and is at 50kw. So you need a little more horsepower to get WLAX-DT due to its lower power


WXOW-DT's antenna is actually located just under the NTSC at the top (center of radiation for DT is 755 feet AGL). It is side-mounted on the La Crosse side of the tower... which results in a slight null toward's Rochester. Once analog goes away, we will be moving to the top of the tower and then convert our analog transmitter to digital... which will result in a lot more power (250KW erp). :D

I'm not sure where WLAX's antenna (ch25 analog/rf channel 17) is actually mounted since I can't see any antenna on that tower for it from over here at WXOW. It could be on the bottom I guess... since that tower isn't built to handle any extra load. For what's it worth, they barely register above the noise floor for me in Bangor. My setup could be improved since my antenna is inside my garage about 15 feet above ground... but who cares since they are simply just putting out upconverted 480i anyhow. No HD! :mad:

WHLA (ch31) ended there HD programming loop since there was going to be a hefty subscription service added to carry that feed. They will still have HD provided whenever there is something on the main PBS feed that is HD (at least once they get everything settled equipment-wise), but they aren't going to shell out big bucks for that loop!

Any more questions?

WXOW-DT's antenna is actually located just under the NTSC at the top (center of radiation for DT is 755 feet AGL). It is side-mounted on the La Crosse side of the tower... which results in a slight null toward's Rochester.

Sorry for the mistake.

Maybe someone should correct the FCC database's listing for the STA:

WXOW-TV WI LA CROSSE USA (Digital)

Licensee: WXOW-WQOW TELEVISION, INC.
Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (digital)

Channel: 14 470 - 476 MHz
File No.: BMDSTA-20040402ADC Facility ID number: 64549
CDBS Application ID No.: 989163

43° 48' 23.00" N Latitude
91° 22' 2.00 " W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization:
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 49. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 331.7 meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 599.1 meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 0. meters AGL

Of course, 16 meters seems pretty small for a tower, since the analog is listed at 347m HAAT.

Not sure why they have that at zero... probably didn't have the AGL figure on hand, so they just leave it at zero. Thankfully, they have the first two correct!

I have a DirecTV HD receiver with the OTA antenna. As od this date we STILL do not have a FOX affiliate broadcasting HD. Has anyone in the Eau Claire,WI area had any luck being granted waivers for the FOX distant network feed? WEUX-DT is the local affiliate and appears to have been granted a lifelong extention.

Thanks in advance,

I know that WEUX-DT is in the works. No word on when it will hit the air or if it will even be HD (WLAX is not... so I suspect the same up in Eau Claire). I imagine it will hit the air soon. If I find out anything from their chief, I'll pass it along.

WEUX-DT is the local affiliate and appears to have been granted a lifelong extention.

See this thread for more info: http://hdtvtwincities.com/forumbb/viewtopic.php?t=1632

I know that WEUX-DT is in the works. No word on when it will hit the air or if it will even be HD (WLAX is not... so I suspect the same up in Eau Claire). I imagine it will hit the air soon. If I find out anything from their chief, I'll pass it along.You are correct. The most recent time I talked to their cheif engineer he said that the Eau Claire station would not be HD to start with, and once they got it over to digital (and got enough money) then they would upgrade WLAX to HD.

What I don't understand is how it has taken just about a year to get WEAU switched over to digital. They turned on the WLAX digital last December 9th, and he said at that point in time that they already had all the equipment to go ditial in Eau Claire.

Can someone let me know the simulcast information for WQOW and WXOW? IIRC, WKBT, WEAU and WLAX are not simulcasting at this point. I'm helping set up a web site that is intended to replace 10000kw, which went to a pay service a couple of years ago.

Thanks in advance!

I am new to the whole OTA HDTV experience, so please forgive my ignorance. I have a projector that will accept HD, but no tuner yet. Here's my story:

I live in Stevens Point. My house came with an outdoor antenna (around 6' feet long) that is mounted to a tower that has to be at least 30' high. I have no idea what kind of antenna it is, but I have become very curious about it now that I know that most DTV is UHF. I dragged our 13" standard def television over to the window and hooked it up to the cable that has been hanging (unused) from the antenna for the last 5 years.

I pick up analog Fox 55 (Wittenberg, UHF), but with bad ghosting. Antennaweb lists this station under the dark blue antenna type (medium directional with preamp). Given that all of the DTV available to Point (ABC,CBS,PBS) comes under the red antenna category, can I expect better results? Or, more of the same? Is there a better test I can try before I invest in a tuner?

If I can't use the one I have, are there others out there in Central Wisconsin (roughly the same distance or further from Wausau) who have had success with indoor antennae?

Thanks!

Irenicus,

I had a nice long message written and then the server went down and lost my rambling. Here is a summary!

What projector do you have?

I live in Wis Rapids, so I'm just a little south of you. I use a Channel Master 4228 and the 4 bay version. I have no problems pulling Wausau and now even get Eau Claire channel 13. I have my antenna about 35' up with the 4228 aimed between Eau Claire and Wausau that pulls 13 in the 70-80's range and Wausau in the 90's. I used to have two antennas roof mounted with the bigger 4228 going to Eau Claire with signal strength in the 60-70's and the smaller on at Wausau that sat in the low 90's. I do use the Channel Master 7777 preamp that I'm sure helps some along with a RCA DTC100 tuner. I have tried to pull in Green Bay Fox 11 with no long and did try to get Madison and La Crosse but nothing would work well. I thought it was weird that i can get Eau Claire so good but not Green Bay. Green Bay is about 10 miles closer and they are broadcasting at the same power for their digital signals. Basically if you have any type of outdoor antenna you should have no problems with Wausau, Eau Claire might happen if the antenna has a good line of sight. Head over to your new Best Buy or Walmart and get a simple tuner and see what works if no luck take it back.

Dave

I thought it was weird that i can get Eau Claire so good but not Green Bay. Green Bay is about 10 miles closer and they are broadcasting at the same power for their digital signals.

WEAU's tower is "only" about 300 meters higher than the ones in Green Bay. Antenna height (receiving and transmitting) is the #1 factor in reception over distance. Transmitting power is way down the list.

sregener,

Where did you pull the elevation numbers from? When i looked at one of the web pages it had ground elevation and then tower height listed. I thought both were very close when you added the two up.

Where did you pull the elevation numbers from? When i looked at one of the web pages it had ground elevation and then tower height listed. I thought both were very close when you added the two up.

FCC TV Query:

WEAU-DT, 585.1m HAAT, 902m AMSL (above sea level), 567.7m AGL
WLUK-DT, 365m HAAT, 614.8m AMSL, 343.5m AGL

WLUK was the highest digital I found in Green Bay, though maybe you know of another.

WEAU has one baaaaaad tower!

Now that would make a difference. Can you explain the difference with broadcast strength. I'm looking at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=44%2E392804&longitude=%2D089%2E825611&magnetic_north=%2D13%2E25&range=125&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Why do some stations show 50.3kw and the next 1000kw? Is the 50.3kw really 503kw? Thanks.

I'm at work so I can't confirm this but I just received an e-mail from WPT's Ann Collins saying:

"Hi - Just wanted to let you know that Wisconsin Public Television has resumed broadcasting our HD channel. You may need to have your TV rescan for the channel, but it is back and running. Hope you are able to enjoy it."

Good news indeed!

Larry

Now that would make a difference. Can you explain the difference with broadcast strength. I'm looking at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=44%2E374224&longitude=%2D089%2E754813&magnetic_north=%2D13%2E25&range=125&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Why do some stations show 50.3kw and the next 1000kw? Is the 50.3kw really 503kw? Thanks.

Not all stations are broadcasting at full power today, for a variety of reasons. 1000kw is the maximum UHF power a station can broadcast at, and that is somewhat limited by antenna height - if their tower is over a certain height, that number is reduced, but never below 500kw. Yes, 50.3kw is really 50.3kw.

For what it's worth, I hope you fudged your lat/long numbers a little. Otherwise, you just posted your location to the world. Fortunately, the server lets you modify your own posts, so there's still time to fudge things. I would suspect that rounding to the nearest degree wouldn't change your results enough to matter for illustrative purposes.

I'm at work so I can't confirm this but I just received an e-mail from WPT's Ann Collins saying:

"Hi - Just wanted to let you know that Wisconsin Public Television has resumed broadcasting our HD channel. You may need to have your TV rescan for the channel, but it is back and running. Hope you are able to enjoy it."

Confirmed. Just checked it and they were running PBS-HD on 31-1.

I received the same message from Ann, good news to hear.

I'm not worried about my lat & long, they are just going to find me living in a van down by the river!

More from Ann. I had replied to her earlier message and asked about inconsistencies between what was scheduled on 31-1/31-2 and what was aired, as well as if WPT would be broadcasting original programming or reimplementing the national feed. My membership expired last month and this is just the incentive I needed to renew.

"Hi - We have had a problem with these listings and our staff is working with the people who handle the listings. I'm not really clear on why it's happening, but we're definitely working on it.

The HD channel will be airing the programming from PBS that we were offering in the past.
We still don't have the ability to send out our own HD signal. We were able to renegotiate
our contract with PBS to make it finiaicially possible to resign for the signal.

So one channel should be the simulcast of our regular analog programming which is what
would be listed in Airwaves and in your newspapers, and one is the HD programming coming directly from PBS."

Larry

I had replied to her earlier message and asked about inconsistencies between what was scheduled on 31-1/31-2 and what was aired...

You mean titantv's guide? Or that 31-1 never/rarely showed what was in the TV Guide?

You mean titantv's guide? Or that 31-1 never/rarely showed what was in the TV Guide?

Oops - I sometimes forget that we aren't all using DirecTV. I get my updates via satellite and several times in past couple of months, I set my PVR to record a scheduled program listed in the Advanced Programming Guide (which shows the channel schedule out to 2 weeks) only to get something else entirely. Typically, it would be the show that was being simulcast on the other channel. A show scheduled for 8pm on 31-1 would actually be on 31-2, which had a different program listed than the one being shown. I never thought to crossreference a time slot with TitanTV or TV Guide so I'm not sure if they had the correct listings or not. I'm sure I could have programmed the time and channel manually but I'm not that organized presently. Now maybe I can stay that way a bit longer :) .

Larry

Can someone let me know the simulcast information for WQOW and WXOW? IIRC, WKBT, WEAU and WLAX are not simulcasting at this point.

Not sure what information you're looking for in terms of simulcasting... WQOW is WXOW's satellite station to help cover the La Crosse - Eau Claire Market. They have nearly identical programming, with everything originating out of La Crosse. The exceptions are news, cut-ins, and a church program on Sunday morning.

In terms of Analog and Digital broadcasts, both stations fully replicate programming their analog programming on the digital channel. Both stations also have a secondary channel on the digital (WXOW actually has two available), but they are relatively dormant due to FCC requirements (EAS warning, closed captioning, children's programming). 19.2 for WXOW is on but simply rebroadcasting the same version as 19.1 but in anamorphic... if that's your thing :cool: .

Hopefully this answers your question... but I guess I'm still a little confused on what you were looking for!
-Jarrett

19.2 for WXOW is on but simply rebroadcasting the same version as 19.1 but in anamorphic... if that's your thing :cool: .

So 19.2 is 480i? Or 720p? I assume 480i, since fitting two 720p versions on at the same time would be difficult.

Otherwise, exactly the info I needed.

That is correct... 480i is what it is. 19.1 and its 720p signal eat up 12 Mb of the 19.4 Mb stream. Until they figure out how to compress things more, one HD is what you'll have. SD channels only require 4 Mb for full 480i resolution. Our 19.3 signal, when available is squeezed a bit (2.5 Mb)... so that one will show some artifacts when there is a lot of picture change and motion (compressors can't keep up). Let me know if you need anything else!
-Jarrett

Has anyone noticed a problem with WKBT-DT and their Dolby 5.1 signal? I receive the Dolby from both WXOW and WHLA, but my AV receiver won't show any 5.1 signal from WKBT. This seems to just started recently or maybe I just noticed it. Every once an a while, I lose the voice track and only get the sound track. I wanted to find out if this was a problem other people noticed, or I have to dig farther into my equipment.

Anyone around here using Charter cable with a cablecard? I just made the plunge into a Samsung HLR4667W DLP with an installed cablecard at home (finally). The problem I've been seeing is that the TVGOS data will not populate. I'm not even getting "no listings"... I simply get the empty "this screen has no data available" message when the TV guide comes up (for four days now).

I find that odd, since I purchased the 50" version of this set for work a month ago and it does populate the guide. The only difference in the set-ups is the fact that one uses a cablecard (home) and one does not (work). Both have off-air antennas hooked up for the local DT's. Any one else using a cablecard in the area and having these issues? I'm rattling some cages over at Charter, but so far, no ideas. My only thought is that they've switched to a full digital lineup with their STB's and probably cablecards as well. That may be stripping the VBI off the host channel (I'm guessing WHLA... although I have some gemstar junk in one of my racks at WXOW as well, I think for VCR plus though). Quite odd :confused:

If anyone out there has any ideas, let me know... I've searched through the other forums and found lots of issues with Toshibas, but not with Samsung's. This should work! Thanks for any input in advance!
-Jarrett

I'm rattling some cages over at Charter, but so far, no ideas. My only thought is that they've switched to a full digital lineup with their STB's and probably cablecards as well. That may be stripping the VBI off the host channel (I'm guessing WHLA... although I have some gemstar junk in one of my racks at WXOW as well, I think for VCR plus though). Quite odd :confused:

Charter in Rochester has been doing data "shaping" for quite some time now, squeezing three 13Mbps streams into one 39Mbps channel. Now, that may not be a problem for 720p as WXOW-DT does it, but it *is* a problem for any station delivering full-bandwidth HD, especially in 1080i. The picture quality, I'm told, suffers horribly from this shaping.

Rumor has it they'll be buying better encoders (possibly flexible bit-rates) in the near future to correct the artifacting problems, but no one has reported it being done yet.

It is entirely possible that Charter is chopping bandwidth to squeeze more channels in over there in La Crosse, too. And anything considered "extra," like guide data, would be the first to go.

Anybody else having Audio problems with Monday night football? WAOW-DT VIA OTA I'm getting just the left and right speaker without any commentary. Very Annoying

Anybody else having Audio problems with Monday night football? WAOW-DT VIA OTA I'm getting just the left and right speaker without any commentary. Very Annoying

Monday night football was fine via WQOW in Eau Claire. However, WKBT-DT via charter was unwatchable last night due to frequent freezing and sound problems.

Just got a receiver, I'm in the Rock Falls area. 13-1 comes in with a good strong signal....or nothing at all, I kind of suspect the problem is on their end but they won't even acknowledge emails.

18-1 comes in always, as do 28-1 & 28-2 (PBS Menomonie). What the hell is 28-3?? I get it most of the time and even tho the signal is strong the picture does this little freeze thing every 2 seconds or so. Are they playing around with a new channel or what?

It appears as if WKBT 8.2 is going to be UPN until Fall and then compete for the CW rights. Article Here (http://lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/01/27/news/z00cwcompetition.txt) Does anybody have any news about when WKBT is going to go full power? We had heard last Fall but it never materialized. Also having this UPN subchannel can't be too good for HD quality on 8.1. :mad:

Does anybody have any news about when WKBT is going to go full power? ... Also having this UPN subchannel can't be too good for HD quality on 8.1. :mad:

From my October post a few pages back on this thread: "Apparently there are two phases to going full power. The new, high-gain, omnidirectional antenna is in the process of being installed. The new transmitter (the thing that feeds the signal to the antenna) isn't slated to be in place until next year. At this point, they don't know what the ERP of the new antenna with the old transmitter will be, but it will likely be a wash (new antenna minus much longer feed line.) What this means is that they will soon be covering a larger area with their low-powered signal, but they will not likely replicate analog coverage, or even approach it, until some time in 2006."

Subchannels can do bad things to picture quality, but they can also be done without harming the primary signal's picture quality at all. It all depends on if they use a fixed or dynamic encoder, and if they use a dynamic encoder, what they set the minimum rate to for the secondary channel. KSTP and KARE in the Twin Cities are perfect examples of how a subchannel can be added with minimal or no difference in picture quality. Their secondary channels are given a minimal (~100kbps) minimum level, and they get more by fitting into the zeros of the primary signal. Average bit rates for HD programming are somewhere in the 12-14Mbps range, but they peak well above 19Mbps (the ATSC 8VSB maximum) with fast motion changes and scene shifts. When the required bit rates go above the maximum output, artifacting becomes necessary, and it becomes more severe the more the scene change is drastic. Watch a football game during kickoff for something that is extremely difficult to do - pan across the screen. Broadcast HD is compressed at something like 45:1, and that's without multicasting.

I doubt we'll hear anything definite about how WKBT plans to fit a second channel in. Most likely it will either be very obvious that picture quality has dropped, or there will be a lot of debate, with some claiming to see something while others don't. Regardless, you need about 2Mbps for a good-looking SD feed.

According to Dennis McSorley from WKBT they are still broadcasting from a sidemounted antenna at low power. They plan on increasing their power and moving to the top of the tower this Spring.

Thanks Dennis for passing on the info to the DTV community.

PS Like sregener I also live in SE Minnesota just north of Rochester. DTV is beautiful. Height is more important than power. :cool:

According to Dennis McSorley from WKBT they are still broadcasting from a sidemounted antenna at low power.

That's amazing, since they took their primary analog transmitter offline for a few weeks while they worked on the tower this fall. But it does explain why my reception hasn't improved. :rolleyes:

Can someone tell me what the regular SD DVR costs from Charter? My girlfriend already has a digital package, so I guess I'm wondering on the charge to upgrade to a DVR. Thanks for any feedback. :)

My charter bill shows:

HDPAK w/HDNET (Movies and Entertainment) - 6.99
HD Integrated Interactive Service - 3.00

So total of 9.99...

I have no idea what the secondline means, anyone???

Also, charter added TNT-HD and UHD this Monday to our HD w/o any notice. Nice timing on adding UHD,
now I can watch even more Olympics in HD.

Got an email today announcing that WEUX is finally on the air, limited power and SD only. They say they've got equipment coming later this year that will boost to full power and add HD capabilities. According to the FCC, they're running just under 2kw, and have a directional bias to that as well.

FCC estimated coverage here: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS1107683.html

Was able to get weux-dt SD last night with a pretty strong signal. Still don't know what the hell the problem is with WEAU, no signal more often than not, and they won't respond to emails.

I moved to Marshfield recently & I have a DirecTV HR10-250 in the basement. I assumed I would need a large outdoor antenna to receive anything (antenna web results are blue & violet), but I tried a Radio Shack 15-1878 indoor antenna & to my surprise I am able to pick up 9.1, 13.1, 20.1, & 20.2 with signals in the 65-75 range. The only channel I need that I can't recieve is WSAW-DT channel 7.1...are they up to full power yet?
(and I'm waiting for Fox 55 of course)

WSAW-DT comes in fine at my house. I do have a large outdoor antenna, and am much closer than you, but I think you should be able to get it. It isn't as strong as 9.1 (I think I usually get 93% for 9.1 and 87% for 7.1), but if you put up and outdoor antenna (I wouldn't think it would have to be that large), you should be able to get it.

I have the same luck with channel 7. They are broadcast from the same tower but 9 must put out more power. One of these years FOX will finally get going on the digital signal and I'm sure they will not do HD right away either.

Hey it looks like all my emails to Fox 55 were posted on their web page. Nothing new about the progress to HD though.

http://www.wfxsfox55.com/reception.html

I'm new to this area & am receiving broadcasts from Wausau and Rhinelander via DirecTV--it's digital but not HD. Am too far away to get OTA HD except PBS. Does anyone get other network broadcasts--NBC, CBS, ABC, etc., with programming like LOST, West Wing, Comander In Chief, etc. from the local affiliates in HD via satellite????

I do not think Dish or Direct has local HD channels yet, but you can get them OTA with an antenna. Where do you live?

Thanks for the reply; am surrounded by a sea of boxes so it's taken me awhile to log back on. Am located in Vilas County half way between Minocqua and Eagle River. Do have a tall tower & some directional antennas but can only get PBS 36 in HD OTA; 7, 9, 12 are all snow in analog and nothing in digital. As the crow flies I'm about 65 miles from Wausau and 20 miles from Rhinelander.

Did confirm with DirecTV that locals are not available in HD at this time. Milwaukee is just coming online in April with locals HD. It's the 2nd phase of their update. DirecTV claims by 2007 all locals will eventually be HD capable, and I will need their 5LNB dish to get it.

I do not think Dish or Direct has local HD channels yet, but you can get them OTA with an antenna. Where do you live?

Quick Question. Is WJFW-DT (NBC 12/DT16) even running? I have seen it listed in a few places but i get nothing. Also, when is WSAW boosting their power? I get that unrelialably due to terrain issues.

Quick Question. Is WJFW-DT (NBC 12/DT16) even running? I have seen it listed in a few places but i get nothing. Also, when is WSAW boosting their power? I get that unrelialably due to terrain issues.

According to the FCC, WJFW-DT is running... at 1.3 watts (that's 0.013kw.) You can see the coverage prediction here: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS615316.html

All stations are required to reach 80% of their market area (defined by 1999 population numbers) by 7/1/06, with the possibility of one 6-month extension for circumstances out of the station's control. So I'd guess no later than 12/31/06.

Thanks

I just noticed that I am getting Weux fox 48 out of eau claire as a digital signal on channel 49. Can anyone else confirm this? Are they starting to broadcast in digital? I will have to wait for a HD program to see if it is in HD.

Regarding Fox48's digital signal, there's a FAQ on fox25fox48 dot com that can be seen by clicking on Station Info, then clicking on Engineering Q&A:

Do you broadcast an HD (High Definition) or SD (Standard Definition) Digital signal yet?
Yes, we do broadcast a digital signal on WLAX-DT (25.1) and WEUX-DT (48.1) ... it is an "SD/480i" formatted signal. Due to space & equipment conditions, WLAX and WEUX are having to "upgrade" the tower in the La Crosse area, the transmitter building facilities in the Eau Claire area, and the infrastructure for transporting each station's signal to each station's respective transmitter site. All of these upgrades/improvements will require a bit of time to get ordered, delivered, built, installed and tested. However, when those tasks are finally met and the signal is ready to be put on the air, there will be no delay in getting it out to you, the viewer.

Do you broadcast in stereo?
WLAX-TV & WLAX-DT, La Crosse, do not transmit stereo audio. However, WEUX-TV & WEUX-DT, Chippewa Falls-Eau Claire, WI. does transmit a "stereo" signal, but in reality, it is a "pseudo-stereo" audio signal that is truly being heard. Mono listeners will hear the same audio as stereo listeners, with no degradation of the quality.

Folks:

For locating WEUX DT (48.1 - RF Ch. 49), here are the coordinates and RC heights AGL & AMSL:
N43° 57' 24.08803" / W091° 43' 02.96633"
RCAGL: 429.8' or 128.94 m.
RCAMSL: 1,693.3' or 516.12 m.
ERP: 1.94 kW.
Main Lobe: 96° TN. towards the community of Chippewa Falls, WI. ...-

For locating WLAX DT (25.1 - RF Ch. 17), here are the coordinates and RC heights AGL & AMSL:
N43° 48' 15.22744" / W091° 22' 20.57003"
RCAGL: 250' or 76.2 m.
RCAMSL: 1465.0' or 446.53 m.
ERP: 2.64 kW.
Omni Antenna pattern, however, being side-mounted on the east-side of the tower, there's a bit of a null to the west of the tower site ...-

WLAX DT has been on the air since: 09 Dec.'04
WEUX DT has been on the air since: 01 Feb.'06

NOTE: It has been found that DTV signals are better-received if they're broadcast from the tower-site with some "beam-tilting" built into the transmitting antenna. Therefore, some stations may have up to -1.5° tilt in their signal. This will/should improve house-hold/indoor reception of signals in the immediate vicinity of the transmitting sites. Conversely, if the reception is still marginal, the receiving antenna my need to be pointed upwards towards the transmitting antenna's location. This small adjusted has been noted to increase the signal strength by 10 dB.! (I've seen this myself, while performing analog signal measurements in the field!)

ALSO, on a slightly less than related matter:

Contrary to what has been noted in earlier posts in this forum, WLAX, WEUX nor GRANT MEDIA LLC HAS EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN, NOR BEEN PART OF ANY LAWSUIT/FILING/PROCEEDING CONCERNING ANY BUSINESS INVOLVING PORNOGRAPHY OR ADULT-ENTERTAINMENT... It has been noted that there's another company that has the name of: Grant Media, L.L.C. (Note the comma between the word "Media" and the first "L" - in "lawyer-speak" that means a whole different company...). This may be the company that Mr. "sregener" has been referencing in the earlier posts. The "comma" "Grant Media, L.L.C." is not a partner or even a related entity to "Grant Media LLC" - These are two, wholly-separate companies. WLAX/WEUX/GRANT MEDIA LLC is not the pornography company referenced to in these earlier posts.

NOW, in the area (Around Friendship, WI.), there was, at one time, a "subscription-based" OTA-Porno Channel (41) :eek: that went "dark" a few years ago. That LPTV-translator was purchased by the WI. Public TV Network and currently acts as a translator for WHLA-TV, and its programming, out of La Crosse.

Outside of that particular situation, concerning any programming on ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC or even PBS, that's about the closest anyone in this area was/is/or will be involved in the porno-industry. If anyone has any questions concerning a particular stations' programming, feel free to call the stations directly and ask to speak to their respective Program Director. I'm sure they will be more than happy to set the record straight. Below, I've listed the main numbers of the respective stations and would like to see folks call first and get their facts straight from the people themselves before they post what they think are facts. It's never been easy to put the smoke back in the wood once the fire's been started.

Here are the main phone numbers:

ABC - WXOW/La Crosse (507) 895.9969
WQOW/Eau Claire (715) 835.1881

CBS - WKBT/La Crosse (608) 782.4678

FOX - WLAX & WEUX/La Crosse (608) 781.0025
WEUX/Chippewa Falls-Eau Claire (608) 781.0025

NBC - WEAU/Eau Claire (715) 835.1313

Thank you! :D

Mark G. Burg
C.O./C.E./S.Ho.V.A. Czar
WLAX/WEUX/Grant Media LLC (No Comma)
La Crosse/Chippewa Falls-Eau Claire, WI.

"TV - It's Not Oxygen!" :cool:
~~~~~~~~~~

Contrary to what has been noted in earlier posts in this forum, WLAX, WEUX nor GRANT MEDIA LLC HAS EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN, NOR BEEN PART OF ANY LAWSUIT/FILING/PROCEEDING CONCERNING ANY BUSINESS INVOLVING PORNOGRAPHY OR ADULT-ENTERTAINMENT... It has been noted that there's another company that has the name of: Grant Media, L.L.C. (Note the comma between the word "Media" and the first "L" - in "lawyer-speak" that means a whole different company...). This may be the company that Mr. "sregener" has been referencing in the earlier posts. The "comma" "Grant Media, L.L.C." is not a partner or even a related entity to "Grant Media LLC" - These are two, wholly-separate companies. WLAX/WEUX/GRANT MEDIA LLC is not the pornography company referenced to in these earlier posts.

It's certainly an understandable mistake. A quick search on "Grant Media LLC" still returns hits related to sex.com. I'll take your word for it that the two are different and separate entities and apologize for any distress or trouble my posting may have caused yourself or your company.

It does raise some interesting questions, as financial hardship has been the reason given for extensive delays by WEUX and WLAX with regards to digital broadcasting, including missing mandatory FCC deadlines. If not due to losing expensive lawsuits, what reason does Grant Media LLC (no comma) have for failing to do what nearly every other station in the country (and all others in the market, including WPT stations) managed to do?

Hey please throw WFXS Fox 55 from Wausau in the mix of stations not meeting any FCC deadlines!

Hey please throw WFXS Fox 55 from Wausau in the mix of stations not meeting any FCC deadlines!

IIRC, WFXS came into existance after the cutoff date for the allocation of digital channels. A search of the FCC database shows that they do not have a digital allocation or construction permit to put up a signal. Thus, they don't have any deadlines to meet. Compare the FCC data on WFXS with that for KYIN, another station that is not on the air yet, beyond the FCC's deadline.

KYIN is another station that cited financial hardship as their reason for not being on the air, and this is no doubt due to the fact that IPTV has several full-power affiliates, but covers a largely rural area and thus doesn't have the fundraising ability to get all the stations on the air in time. All the stations in Denver have failed to meet the full-power requirements there because of politics; the locals literally won't let them build a tower for fear of radiation and "blight."

I understand your frustration, but you can hardly blame a station for not putting up a signal when doing so would violate have to be in violation of the law and the FCC.

In regards to why SD and not HD, why later and not now?

#1.) Many moons ago, Congress told the FCC that they needed to improve TV. Congress, at that time, promised that there would be "loan guarantees" to small-market stations to help in performing the transition to digital. Guess what didn't transpire? Yep, you got it.

#2.) Back in '99, FOX told its affiliates that "...we don't need no stinking 720p/1080i..." They told the engineers that "480i will be what everyone will want to watch and nobody will (be the wiser) know the difference...) S-o-o-o-o,

#3.) Everyone (FOX O&Os & affiliates) went out and bought the 480i stuff. Then, everyone else (except ABC) went out and bought/contracted for 1080i (ABC went 720p).

#4.) FOX and their O&Os decided that they better switch up to 720p and there's the rub...they will "subsidize" their own operations but leave the rest of the mess in the affiliates' laps.

#5.) In the meantime, contracts have to be honored. What was ordered (Based on what FOX originally had outlined as a business plan) still has to be delivered and put up on-air. Then, the next stages of contracts could begin and what gets fixed/upgraded first are the "big boys" in every group around the country, including ours. WLAX & WEUX are the #6 & #7 stations (size-wise, market-wise) in our group.

#6.) Also, our stations' infrastructure (i.e.: microwaves, towers, antennas) are more spread out and extensive than the others in our group. It takes money to upgrade, it takes equipment and time to integrate these changes...all while keeping the analog stuff on the air and still trying to keep everything else running.

#7.) Taking money from Peter, to give to Paul, can only happen when Peter has money to take. Right now, our resources are being used to keep WLAX/WEUX on the air and viable. When the upgrades are produced, then we are able to purchase them and get them integrated. Simple? You'd think so. But, when problems occur (As is usually the case) everything else is put on "hold" until the problems are taken care of first. And many times, those problems have nothing to do with equipment-towers-finances or items related to the task at hand.

As it currently stands, WLAX's & WEUX's "digital" signals are on the air. WHEN the upgrades, for the respective places, can be performed, I've mentioned to the folks that "e'd" me, that I'd try to keep them in the loop. Relax...

Hey, we all can't be driving Cadillacs at the same time. Right?

Remember when "color" TV showed up? How many years did it take to get a "colored" set in all your friends' homes? You mean it didn't happen overnight? Dad had to get a second job? You ate more than the usual amount of PB&J sandwiches? What makes anyone think that there's a "money tree" just waiting to shed cash for every little project that a TV station (even radio has its own little upgrading to deal with) HAS to do because the FCC "asks" it to be done.

Think about this...Along with the current operations that EACH TV station has to keep running in order to CONTINUE to pay the bills, each station is REQUIRED to install, test, operate and maintain ANOTHER transmitter (and in many cases, an additional tower) - all with the same amount of money that was available BEFORE the mandates. The pie didn't get bigger-the mouths got larger and there's more of them.

When all is said and done, remember...

"TV ... It's Not Oxygen!"

Respectfully,

Mark

In regards to why SD and not HD, why later and not now?

Thank you, Mark, for this response.

I'm fortunate that I get two other Fox stations, both of which do HD. One is O&O, so you know they had no trouble going live. The other is in Rochester, MN, which is a much smaller market than Eau Claire/La Crosse. They're "only" at 55kw ERP, but that signal covers a fair part of their market. KSMQ, a public television station that serves 800,000 viewers, came up with the money to do a digital broadcast that is HD capable (they don't pay PBS for the HD feed at this time) and is at 20kw ERP. Again, this covers a sizable chunk of their market. It's a little hard to swallow that a Fox affiliate which is being given the HD encoding equipment and the satellite receivers necessary to receive and decode the HD signal for broadcasting can't put out more than 1 or 2 kilowatts of energy. I know the cost per station is well over $1 million, but others have found a way.

I get a pretty clean picture from WEUX (analog) most of the time, and suspect I'll get a fine digital lock on WEUX-DT once your power exceeds 50kw. (I get WHWC-DT most of the time, though it does break up.) Not too shabby for being over 20 miles beyond the grade B contours.

Still, money is what makes the world go round, so I guess we'll all just have to wait for WEUX and WLAX to find some.

sregener, you obviously have a lock on the straight or even slightly crooked stuff hereabouts.

What do you know about the LPTV station KQEG in La Crosse, formerly the UPN affiliate until the CBS station hijacked that network from them, and now an indie? Are they going to go digital or just close up shop, maybe?

sregener, you obviously have a lock on the straight or even slightly crooked stuff hereabouts.

What do you know about the LPTV station KQEG in La Crosse, formerly the UPN affiliate until the CBS station hijacked that network from them, and now an indie? Are they going to go digital or just close up shop, maybe?

I thought that is what I had read, but I haven't heard who will carry the new combo network (it does have a new name) or if it has been decided.

What do you know about the LPTV station KQEG in La Crosse, formerly the UPN affiliate until the CBS station hijacked that network from them, and now an indie? Are they going to go digital or just close up shop, maybe?

Nobody really knows at this point. There's a loophole in the digital transition that would allow KQEG to broadcast as an analog station "forever." They could also choose to flash cut to digital on their current frequency with FCC approval now, or anytime after 2009. If they want a different channel number (as stations above channel 51 will require) they have to wait for the third round of channel elections to complete which I believe is at the end of 2006. It is unlikely they would go away, as they could simulcast 5 or 6 SD channels if they were to go digital. There's plenty of broadcasters who would love to get their programming out for very little cost, and splitting the power bill would bring their costs down to very low levels.

Interestingly enough, UPN and WB are merging this summer, and launching a new network in the fall called CW. WXOW/WQOW will air the network on a digital subchannel, and make it available to cable stations for distribution. So WKBT really only gets UPN for a few more months and then they'll be left with nothing. It's for the best, really, since ABC broadcasts in 720p which leaves enough space for an SD subchannel, while CBS broadcasts in 1080i, which really requires the full bandwidth.

Longwinded answer to a simple question, I know. Just trying to avoid a lot of followups. :)

Nobody really knows at this point. There's a loophole in the digital transition that would allow KQEG to broadcast as an analog station "forever." They could also choose to flash cut to digital on their current frequency with FCC approval now, or anytime after 2009. If they want a different channel number (as stations above channel 51 will require) they have to wait for the third round of channel elections to complete which I believe is at the end of 2006. It is unlikely they would go away, as they could simulcast 5 or 6 SD channels if they were to go digital. There's plenty of broadcasters who would love to get their programming out for very little cost, and splitting the power bill would bring their costs down to very low levels.

Yeah, but there's even more of us who would never watch any such low-def cheeze.

I had an acquaintence with the (deceased) husband of the current owner/manager, but I really haven't spoken with her at all.


Interestingly enough, UPN and WB are merging this summer, and launching a new network in the fall called CW. WXOW/WQOW will air the network on a digital subchannel, and make it available to cable stations for distribution. So WKBT really only gets UPN for a few more months and then they'll be left with nothing. It's for the best, really, since ABC broadcasts in 720p which leaves enough space for an SD subchannel, while CBS broadcasts in 1080i, which really requires the full bandwidth.

I followed all that in the press, except about the ABC affil putting it on a sub-channel ("no comment" was all they were quoted as saying). Their .2 right now is an inexplicable dup of .1. The explanation from the CE was perplexing, to say the least. I'm sure you know that WPT runs full-time 1080 on .1, and has two sub-channels as .2 & .3.



Longwinded answer to a simple question, I know. Just trying to avoid a lot of followups. :)

Ah, what's the fun of that? :rolleyes:

I followed all that in the press, except about the ABC affil putting it on a sub-channel ("no comment" was all they were quoted as saying). Their .2 right now is an explicable dup of .1. The explanation from the CE was perplexing, to say the least. I'm sure you know that WPT runs full-time 1080 on .1, and has two sub-channels as .2 & .3.

The 480i duplicates of analog programming is for cable front-ends. They then get a clean, clear image of the station rather than a snowy, fuzzy, analog one for distribution.

I think WPT's 1080i image shows some degradation from the .2 subchannel. Last I checked, the .3 was blank, but maybe that's changed. I think these days I spend more time on the forums than I do watching television.

The 480i duplicates of analog programming is for cable front-ends. They then get a clean, clear image of the station rather than a snowy, fuzzy, analog one for distribution.

That's not the rationization the CE related to me. It had something to do with people who don't have HD not having their (CRT) screens burned by the letterbox bands, or something akin to that. If that's what he really meant, the notion has more holes than Swish Cheeze.

But I'm pretty sure WXOW feeds ABC to at least some cable ops other than OTA, because the cables carry ABC 24 hrs, even after WXOW signs off. And they were doing "the WB" cable feed before they had the digital station running.

WXOW had the local Weather Service radar on .2 for a while, and a short-lived ABC News cable channel also. It was of such low quality you'd think you needed new glasses.

I think WPT's 1080i image shows some degradation from the .2 subchannel. Last I checked, the .3 was blank, but maybe that's changed. I think these days I spend more time on the forums than I do watching television.

I don't know. They started off with two channels, so I can't be sure. I think source material is critical. Some of the demo loops from the early days looked better than some current programming. That third channel is "Create", a syndicated crafts, hobbies, travel and food channel show consisted of second- and third-run PBS series. Started a couple months back. I'm not positive, but I think they say it's in HD "where available". Not very HQ this way.

In my opinion, every secondary channel I've seen is inferior to analog done right.

But I'm pretty sure WXOW feeds ABC to at least some cable ops other than OTA, because the cables carry ABC 24 hrs, even after WXOW signs off. And they were doing "the WB" cable feed before they had the digital station running.

In my opinion, every secondary channel I've seen is inferior to analog done right.

I didn't say that WXOW-DT-2 was for *all* cable headends, but I'm fairly sure it is for some. Broadcasting the WB on a subchannel only benefits OTA viewers, but I think it's a nice benefit.

I've seen some really bad SD, and I've seen some really good SD. I've seen some really bad HD and some really good HD. Bandwidth seems to be the issue, and the more bandwidth they include, the better.

KTTC-DT may have the best digital secondary channel I've seen, but their primary signal noticably suffers for it. They do the cable distribution thing with KTTC-DT-2, and the breakups during HD programming on -1 are horrible. Fortunately for me, I can't stand their programming so I rarely watch.

Broadcasting the WB on a subchannel only benefits OTA viewers, but I think it's a nice benefit.

But a dumb idea. HD was first proposed as a 30-MHz wide signal (analog) 25-30 years ago*. Everybody knew that would never fly. ALL broadcasting was supposed to be HD. The whole HD plan was delayed when it was decided to look into compression schemes, but that would require computational power that didn't exist early on. Staying with a 6-Mhz channel has resulted in the worst compromise since (um, let me think. . .). Going to 9, 12 or even 15-Mhz would have solved some of the problems, even if it created other new ones.

KTTC-DT may have the best digital secondary channel I've seen, but their primary signal noticably suffers for it. They do the cable distribution thing with KTTC-DT-2, and the breakups during HD programming on -1 are horrible. Fortunately for me, I can't stand their programming so I rarely watch.

I was only able to catch KTTC-DT a couple of times, and finally gave up (no fun standing out in the rain in the middle of an empty parking lot holding the antenna while standing on my tiptoes :eek: ). Back then they only had their radar on .2. Last time I asked their CE (about a year ago now), he told me that they hadn't even received a channel assignment for a translator here (there is an analog).

Not clear if you mean NBC or WB. I don't find much NBC I care for. Without cable, I'm not getting WB.

*According to a story in the New York Times, and repeated in an electronics hobbyist magazine at the time (1945), a French experimenter demonstrated 1000-line high def TV in late 1944 in Paris. This was while WWII was still going on, mind you. Certainly it was B&W, and probably a square or circular screen. But here we are 60+ years later and it's still not right.

1) But a dumb idea. HD was first proposed as a 30-MHz wide signal (analog) 25-30 years ago*. Everybody knew that would never fly. ALL broadcasting was supposed to be HD. The whole HD plan was delayed when it was decided to look in compression schemes, but that would require computational power that didn't exist early on. Staying with a 6-Mhz channel has resulted in the worst compromise since (um, let me think. . .). Going to 9, 12 or even 15-Mhz would have solved some of the problems, even if it created other new ones.

2) I was only able to catch KTTC-DT a couple of times, and finally gave up (no fun standing out in the rain in the middle of an empty parking lot holding the antenna while standing on my tiptoes :eek: ). Back then they only had their radar on .2. Last time I asked their CE (about a year ago now), he told me that they hadn't even received a channel assignment for a translator here (there is an analog).

3) Not clear if you mean NBC or WB. I don't find much NBC I care for. Without cable, I'm not getting WB.

4) But here we are 60+ years later and it's still not right.

1) There's an obvious problem with going to 9, 12 or 15-Mhz: the only way to do it is to turn off analog on the first day of digital broadcasting. No transition time, no learning period, nothing. Everybody flash cuts on day one. Why? Because there aren't really enough holes in the broadcast spectrum to do digital at the same time as analog with just 6Mhz, but they've "made it work." Certainly another possible solution would have been to define HD as 1024x768 instead of 1920x1080.

2) Digital channel assignments for translators won't start until at least 2007, if ever. KTTC in La Crosse could broadcast analog forever, just not on their current frequency.

3) I don't watch NBC. WB is almost as infrequent. But a lot of stations are broadcasting their "cable-only" signal on a digital subchannel and when they do, I think it's nice. But I get KMWB-DT out of the Cities perfectly now, and they do HD, so there's no point in watching somebody else's subchannel.

4) You make it sound like we'd all be happy with a 1000-line B&W image. I think most would rather have color at NTSC resolution than B&W. And I think we *do* have it right technically. The problem is that many broadcasters see the multicasting idea and latch onto it and sign contracts and produce virtually worthless content to the detriment of their "real" signal. I said years ago that broadcast could differentiate itself with HD and capture market share they'd lost to cable by doing HD quickly and right. Instead, they're buying the "more is better" idea. That's not a technical problem, though.

MPEG4 may eventually solve the bandwidth problem. But the encoders aren't there yet...

1)Because there aren't really enough holes in the broadcast spectrum to do digital at the same time as analog with just 6Mhz, but they've "made it work."

Except for in a few of the largest metro areas, the upper end of the UHF spectrum is dead air. And there was more of it, before the FCC gave it away. OK, 15 Mhz would have most problematical, 12 almost as much.


4) You make it sound like we'd all be happy with a 1000-line B&W image. I think most would rather have color at NTSC resolution than B&W. And I think we *do* have it right technically.

No, I WOULDN'T be happy with B&W. Just pointing out how some things could have been here long ago were it not for "politics". Technically, motion artifacts stink. When you take too much information out of the bitstream, you have garbage. But what is TV anyway, other than a diversion? (Well, it could be a LOT more.)

Except for in a few of the largest metro areas, the upper end of the UHF spectrum is dead air. And there was more of it, before the FCC gave it away. OK, 15 Mhz would have most problematical, 12 almost as much.

Pretty much the entire eastern US is cramped. In one case, WHP-DT in Harrisburg, PA is broadcasting on channel 4, and WRC analog in Washington D.C. is on the same frequency. People located between the two get nothing unless one of the two goes offline. WHTM-DT is on channel 10, and WCAU analog in Philadelphia is also on channel 10, and they're only about 80 miles apart. There just isn't enough room.

Closer to home WKBT-DT is on channel 41, and KPXM analog in the Twin Cities is also on channel 41. I expect I won't get anything from KPXM once WKBT-DT goes full power. WQOW-DT is on channel 15, and KSMQ analog is also on channel 15. I get nada from WQOW-DT even though I get plenty of signal from WHWC-DT and WEAU-DT because analog 15 wipes it out.

Most of the upper channels are actually packed with LPTV signals that were relocated to make room for the digitals.

The only way to make it work would have been a flash cut or a move to a different spectrum altogether, in which case people really would need "HD" antennas.

TV is just entertainment. It can't really be much more. See Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves to Death" for a very clear, as yet unrefuted argument stating just that.

See, you missed it where I said the FCC screwed up. They took channels 70 - 83 and gave them to trunked land-mobile and smellular (mostly). If, say, a 9 Mhz channel were to have been specified, that would have given two dozen stations the extra. Less, for 12 Mhz. Other ideas might have been giving an incentive to early adopters, where if they agreed to give up the analog station before the cutoff they got first chance at the additional bandwidth (first come takes the prize). (Similar to what is known as a "flash cut".)

The biggest fly in the ointment was calling for elimation of the VHS channels. However, this is slightly mitigated by not needing a full "guard channel" on each side of the allocation.

There probably was no realistic chance to develop a "compatabile" system (as with color and B&W). But, who knows(?)

I know all about channel 41. There is, or was, an IPTV translator down the river on that frequency. Even though it was beyond "deep fringe", I could get a satisfactory signal with the right equipment. And I was able to prevent a party applying for a LP license at La Crosse from getting channel 42. I knew about the Twin Cities assignment. But WKBT snuck up on me.

I wonder how many of you noticed that KQEG (23) was off the air for three days last week.

When they came back, everything was screwy. Program times don't match the published scheduled; they start at odd times or not at all; computer screens or instructions show over programming; there doesn't seem to be any local advertising or station promos, etc.

And then there's WKBT. They've been without program info (PSIP) in the datastream for their digital station for over a week. Call or write (see email info on their website) to complain.

Roger Wilco:

KQEG took a "lightning hit" :eek: :eek: on their tower and µ-Wave system back in April (about the time you noticed them off, then back on with the screwy-ness...). :eek:

They couldn't get the µ-Wave system repaired, so now they're looking into replacing it all together w/a newer system. Some BIG $$$ :eek: are going to be involved in that project.

In the mean time, they are recording all their programming to a hard-drive (HD) and then taking the HD up to their Xmtr. site and down-loading the programming into a computer for O/P to their Xmtr.. Pretty resourceful for a "back-up" if you don't have anything else to use. :p

Obviously, there's a time lag between recording everything and then getting up to the Xmtr. site but, hey, something's better than nothing at all. :o

That's the "P**P" on that story. :D

Mark

Folks:

Just a "follow-up" on some of the earlier posts:

#1.) The new "CW" (the combined UPN & WB) will be going to WXOW/WQOW this fall, if/when the network finally launches. The dates and times are a changin'...

#2.) The new FOX network, "My Network TV" will be the replacement for the UPN that WKBT-TV is currently carrying on their 8.2 Digital channel. When that kicks off, also, is still in the air. Probably just before the "CW" will go to air. But, that my guess at this time.

Contact your local, friendly, stations for any further updates. :D

KSMQ, a public television station that serves 800,000 viewers, came up with the money to do a digital broadcast that is HD capable (they don't pay PBS for the HD feed at this time) and is at 20kw ERP. Again, this covers a sizable chunk of their market. It's a little hard to swallow that a Fox affiliate which is being given the HD encoding equipment and the satellite receivers necessary to receive and decode the HD signal for broadcasting can't put out more than 1 or 2 kilowatts of energy. I know the cost per station is well over $1 million, but others have found a way.

In regard to the above mentioned quote:

Back in 1990, at the NAB convention in Atlanta, PBS (National) held a forum that included a session on "How To Write/Get Funding For Public TV Stations In Your State" It was an eye-opener. (Don't even ask how I got into that session!)

The facts are this...your local PBS outlet is funded by your state and federal taxes. And you made one of my points. KSMQ doesn't pay for their programming. You and everyone of your neighbors do. Simple as that.

Do you believe that you could have a nice highway in your neighborhood based on what you, yourself, contribute for taxes alone? Don't think so. That same philosophy can be applied for almost every PBS Stations around the country. Each state has its own rules on how/where/why their own stations are funded. But the water starts tricklin' down the hill from the Feds. And, it is we, the taxpayer, that make up the Fed.

Now, the PBS outlet in La Crosse, WHLA, is one place that I envy. They have the latest and best of gear that WE could buy. (Remember the deductions from YOUR paycheck? State Taxes? Federal Taxes?) That's why THEY came on first and full power right away, not "peanut-power" and all the related "mickey-mouse" carping (sic) that some of us have to do. Their funding came from GRANTS from the federal government and additional state subsidies. But, this all started back in 1990 and has slowly progressed to where they're at now. Even though they "...flicked the switch and *POOF* they were on the air..." it just didn't happen over-night.

So, yep, they are amazing for what they're able to do in a small market like either Rochester or La Crosse/Eau Claire. :rolleyes:

("Anything can be done if you throw enough money at it. Just look at our educational system." :eek: )

But first, you need the dough. :D

And, if you go back to Post #208, my first paragraph says it all - "...that there would be "loan guarantees" to small-market stations..."

No "loan guarantees" means you have to make sure you're able to FUND IT ALL, 100%. No Ifs, Ands or Buts about it.

If the playing field ain't level, someone's going to have the advantage. Think - Big Government, Big Markets and the Big Boys.

'Nuff said on the funding.

The facts are this...your local PBS outlet is funded by your state and federal taxes. And you made one of my points. KSMQ doesn't pay for their programming. You and everyone of your neighbors do. Simple as that.

You don't have to lecture me about the funding of PBS. But let's be fair and honest while we're at it.

KSMQ doesn't pay for HD programming, which PBS *does* charge for. They can't afford to pay PBS for the HD feed.

Fox affiliates, on the other hand, are paid for carrying Fox programming. So while a PBS station either has to produce themselves or pay for what other stations have produced, both of which cost them money, Fox affiliates (and any of the other networks for that matter) actually get *paid* for some of the programming they air.

Secondly, commercial affiliates technically don't pay for any programming. That's right - the commercials do. Sure, you have to go out and sell the airtime to justify the cost of the programming, but I'm reasonably certain you don't carry any programs that don't sell enough local ad time to cover their purchase price.

We, the consumers, are the ones who pay for the programming you show, whether we watch any of it or not. We pay for it every time we buy a product that was advertised on your program, a portion of our purchase price goes to you, the television affiliate. The only way we can escape it is to buy products that don't advertise - precious few, and usually not the same quality.

Sorry S., didn't mean to come off as "preachy" on the post.

Here's the scoop on FOX.

Back when FOX started (1986), they did pay their affiliates to carry the programming because...that's what the other 3 nets were doing! FOX was just "more edgy" w/their programming and that resulted in more revenue coming their way.

About the early 90's, when FOX got its first NFL/NFC contract, stripping NBC of football and causing the CBS network to switch over to carrying the AFC, FOX started CHARGING the affiliates during either the 2nd or 3rd season to be FOX affiliates. FOX had bid big bucks for football and they decided that they couldn't pay for that and pay the affiliates to carry their programming too. So...the slippery slope was open for business and it's been all downhill, for the affiliates, ever since. If I remember correctly, it was either CBS, or ABC that jumped onto the "charge the affiliates" bandwagon and w/a few exceptions, every network has adopted the "FOX" business model. You don't get to be a FOX affiliate without the checkbook. And, if you don't pay, they just turn off those "free" digital receivers until a check arrives and clears the bank.

Now, as for the second part - Yes, FOX Affiliates (FA) charge for those commercials you're forced to watch and listen to. But, that's what any TV station, that's still on the air, has done since the 50's. The only thing different is this...what once was a revenue stream to the station(s) is now an expense. 180° turn-about in the oil' business model. Not only do you have to pay for the regular line-up of pablum, but now the networks REQUIRE payment or it's no play. Simple as that. No one, that I'm aware of, is GETTING a check from any network.

Now, it's usually a gamble for the off-network fare that each station runs...whether or not it will be a hit in the market or not. But, each show has a certain point-of-no-return or ROI (return on investment). But the affiliate has to, at least, "buy" the program and promote the heck out of it, BEFORE you even get to tune it in. Then, by the grace of GOD, maybe someone out there will fill out a Nelsen ratings book, and the show might be a hit. Otherwise, the show will suck, and the revenue that should have been generated by the show, won't be there and the station still has to pay for it anyways. Now, THAT'S GAMBLING. Believe me, I'll never be a salesman for any place that sells advertising. I just don't have the stomach for stuff that has to be put up with. AS FOR THE NETWORK FARE...again, it's pay-to-play now. Then, you get to worry if you can charge enough to cover the "franchising fee" for the year. It's some pretty heady stuff. As I stated before, there's no longer a "free lunch" in this business anymore.

And finally, yes, you consumers do end up paying for the programming. That's life. Want a nice house? Pay the taxes. Want gas for your car? Pay the pump. That car? Pay the insurance and car payment. Yada, Yaud, yada. (Sorry Seinfeld fans...it works too well in this situation...) :p

Again, don't beat me up for sounding too preachy...this business isn't as simple as some folks might believe it is. There are many things that have to be maintained, replaced, updated, down-graded and/or mutilated in order to keep any business running. Only the Mafia makes money w/out doing any labor (or is that the government?). Everyone else...pay the piper or no one dances.

Later!

[QUOTE=Roger_Wilco]That's not the rationization the CE related to me. It had something to do with people who don't have HD not having their (CRT) screens burned by the letterbox bands, or something akin to that. If that's what he really meant, the notion has more holes than Swish Cheeze.

But I'm pretty sure WXOW feeds ABC to at least some cable ops other than OTA, because the cables carry ABC 24 hrs, even after WXOW signs off. And they were doing "the WB" cable feed before they had the digital station running.

WXOW had the local Weather Service radar on .2 for a while, and a short-lived ABC News cable channel also. It was of such low quality you'd think you needed new glasses.

I'm not sure what "Swish Cheeze" really is :p ... but I'll try to clarify things a little better for you Roger. 19.2 is the way it is (SD duplicate of main programming) due to a few factors. First, by law, we can only broadcast on sub-channels if you satisfy all of the FCC requirements for EAS and Legal ID's. Unfortunately for us, until July when our control room is done, we have no way of doing separate keying of those sources on another program stream. Per corporate concerns, I took the radar off the sub-channels due to compliance issues and replaced it with an anamorphic view of our SD signal.

Although this is perplexing to some, it does at least serve a purpose for now, in that it provides many vendors who sell widescreen TV's an option to show a local channel during the day on their TV's without worries of burn-in (which is an issue on CRT's and Plasmas). I hate the anamorphic view... but I understood the frustration of Wettstein's and Midwest TV when they called and complained about 19.1 and it's black bars on the side.

However, this will all be pretty irrelevant in a few months when the CW launches. That will be on 19.2 (with all of the appropriate keying) this fall. This will be a full-bandwidth 4 MB channel for SD, so it should look great. In fact, things should look a lot better on 19.1 during non-HD programming as well due to the technical rebuild we're going through this summer. 19.3 will remain off the air, since it isn't capable of full-bandwidth on SD... that was why it looked bad for "ABC News Now" when it was available.

Down the road, we'll be probably switching out our flexicoder (the unit that creates our 19.4 MB stream for DTV) with the next set up (NETVX). This newer unit is capable of running two 720P signals at once... allowing us to provide CW -HD when available. Granted... this compression business is a dumb idea, according to Roger :confused: . I think it's unbelievable how good a current HD picture looks when you consider the compression schemes it's running through.

The only bad news I have is that I have no updates on a Dolby Encoder for 5.1. I'll install it as soon as one shows up at my door! Later all!
-Jarrett

Down the road, we'll be probably switching out our flexicoder (the unit that creates our 19.4 MB stream for DTV) with the next set up (NETVX). This newer unit is capable of running two 720P signals at once... allowing us to provide CW -HD when available. Granted... this compression business is a dumb idea, according to Roger :confused:

There is no way 2 720p streams can coexist on a 19Mbps digital channel and not look awful some of the time. To get a good 720p image, you really need at least 12Mbps. 12+12 is 24, so if both programs need peak rates at the same time, one or both are going to look bad. I was watching the Sheryl Crow concert on WHLA-DT the other night and when the lights started flashing, the HD image turned into, to quote Simon Cowell, "a complete and utter mess." The drum kit became a group of 12 blocks, easily 50x50 pixels each. And that's just one HD stream with two bandwidth-limited SD streams, not even two HD streams. (I know WHLA uses 1080i, but it really needs about 15Mbps to look good, so the math still applies.)

Compression isn't all bad - we wouldn't have any HD without it. But stations are going to keep squishing and squishing and tossing bits by the bucketful until we start pining for the days when television only had ghosts, impulse noise and snow.

You are making that claim based on the technology you see us using today. Of course you can't run two HD's at once on a flexicoder; however, I seriously doubt you have any exposure to a NETVX encoder. These were under development when I trained on the flexicoder a couple years ago. Our corporate capital director saw one in action at NAB this year and claims it can handle two 720P streams.

Don't assume because it can't be done today that it can't be done in a year or two. Just remember that 10 years ago, a 20 GB drive in a computer was unreal... today, I'm not sure if one actually even ships in any new unit.

You are making that claim based on the technology you see us using today. Of course you can't run two HD's at once on a flexicoder; however, I seriously doubt you have any exposure to a NETVX encoder. These were under development when I trained on the flexicoder a couple years ago.

...Don't assume because it can't be done today that it can't be done in a year or two. Just remember that 10 years ago, a 20 GB drive in a computer was unreal... today, I'm not sure if one actually even ships in any new unit.

Actually, the problem is MPEG2. You can't make MPEG2 do more than it can do - it is a mathematical problem with a mathematical solution. You are trying to fit two streams that are, theoretically, up to 1,327,104,000 bits per second each into one stream that is no bigger than 19,400,000 bits per second. That works out to a compression rate of, oh, about 136:1. In other words, for every pixel you send out in your stream, there are going to be 135 that will have to be "computed" from that one. Now maybe you can buy a magic encoder that is capable of breaking the laws of math, physics, or MPEG2, but we're already compressing HD to the point where artifacts are obvious to the untrained eye with just 1 HD and 1 SD stream. Perhaps these artifacts can be "smoothed" out so they are less obvious, but you can't fit more bandwidth into the fixed pipe.

I have heard that with MPEG4, two HD streams can coexist in the same 19Mbps stream and both will look excellent. The drawbacks are obvious. First, MPEG4 requires some serious horsepower, on the order of 4x as much as MPEG2, to do real-time encoding and have it look good. Second, MPEG4 takes more decoding horsepower, also to the order of 4x as much as MPEG2. Thirdly, nobody owns a terrestrial MPEG4 decoder today, and broadcasting two MPEG4 streams (plus a third marginal MPEG2 stream to comply with FCC regulations requiring an MPEG2 channel equal to NTSC) to an audience of zero doesn't make any sense. Everyone with a tuner would have to go out and buy a new one and you've seen how fast that happened the last time the FCC decided to change broadcast standards.

Hard drive size is a terrible analogy. Yes, technology marches on, and improvements will be made in many, many things. But a zip file today is the same size as a zip file twenty years ago because the standard by which files are compressed into a zip file are the same. MPEG2 isn't a physical limitation like drive space; it's a standard. The only way to "fix" it is to use a different standard, and that means replacing every box in America with a new one.

Actually, the problem is MPEG2. You can't make MPEG2 do more than it can do - it is a mathematical problem with a mathematical solution. You are trying to fit two streams that are, theoretically, up to 1,327,104,000 bits per second each into one stream that is no bigger than 19,400,000 bits per second. That works out to a compression rate of, oh, about 136:1. In other words, for every pixel you send out in your stream, there are going to be 135 that will have to be "computed" from that one. Now maybe you can buy a magic encoder that is capable of breaking the laws of math, physics, or MPEG2, but we're already compressing HD to the point where artifacts are obvious to the untrained eye with just 1 HD and 1 SD stream. Perhaps these artifacts can be "smoothed" out so they are less obvious, but you can't fit more bandwidth into the fixed pipe.

I have heard that with MPEG4, two HD streams can coexist in the same 19Mbps stream and both will look excellent. The drawbacks are obvious. First, MPEG4 requires some serious horsepower, on the order of 4x as much as MPEG2, to do real-time encoding and have it look good. Second, MPEG4 takes more decoding horsepower, also to the order of 4x as much as MPEG2. Thirdly, nobody owns a terrestrial MPEG4 decoder today, and broadcasting two MPEG4 streams (plus a third marginal MPEG2 stream to comply with FCC regulations requiring an MPEG2 channel equal to NTSC) to an audience of zero doesn't make any sense. Everyone with a tuner would have to go out and buy a new one and you've seen how fast that happened the last time the FCC decided to change broadcast standards.

Hard drive size is a terrible analogy. Yes, technology marches on, and improvements will be made in many, many things. But a zip file today is the same size as a zip file twenty years ago because the standard by which files are compressed into a zip file are the same. MPEG2 isn't a physical limitation like drive space; it's a standard. The only way to "fix" it is to use a different standard, and that means replacing every box in America with a new one.
I apologize for the poor analogy... I was simply trying to convey that things that may seem unbelieveable now may become the standard in a few years.

Now, keep in mind that I haven't seen this "magical" encoder box in action yet, I just know what they claim and what others have seen. I'm confident it will handle two 720P signals... in fact, Harris claims they tested out a 1080i, a 720P, and a 480i all on the same stream and got it to work (that I will have to see to believe!).

Without knowing how you derived your compression numbers, I can't really go through your math. Keep in mind that there are different profiles and levels of MPEG2. I know that your 1.327 Gbps number is almost the rate for uncompressed studio distribution (SMPTE 292M 4:2:2) which is 1.485 Gbps. Broadcast HD (4:2:0) uncompressed is 891 Mbps... so that means you are looking at 46:1 minimum compression just to get one HD channel into a 19.39 Mbps DTV pipe! In reality, that is even higher with subchannels, audio, PSIP, etc. (around 60:1). That is where the magic begins and takes place... in the encoder as it predicts, estimates, eliminates, compensates and duplicates frames. It gets pretty deep in theory at this point... so I won't go through trying to explain it, especially since I don't have it completely mastered yet! All I know is that this was the point where I came to believe that 720p with its progressive scanning was the more logical HD format. Even though they (1080i and 720p) have the same sample rate (74.25MHz) , the interlacing really makes things a lot tougher on the encoders.

This is where hardware and software differs too, as some encoders are better at this job than others. The NETVX is a later generation encoder... meaning it (with its newer chipset, software, and processing) is better than the flexicoder we installed in 2001 when we went on the air with WXOW-DT.

Hopefully, this reply won't confuse anyone more than they are already! All I say is that if you still doubt it's possible, than I look forward to trying one of these out in the near future to see if I can prove you wrong! :cool:

1) I was simply trying to convey that things that may seem unbelieveable now may become the standard in a few years.

2) Now, keep in mind that I haven't seen this "magical" encoder box in action yet, I just know what they claim and what others have seen. I'm confident it will handle two 720P signals... in fact, Harris claims they tested out a 1080i, a 720P, and a 480i all on the same stream and got it to work (that I will have to see to believe!).

3) ...so that means you are looking at 46:1 minimum compression just to get one HD channel into a 19.39 Mbps DTV pipe! In reality, that is even higher with subchannels, audio, PSIP, etc. (around 60:1).

4) Hopefully, this reply won't confuse anyone more than they are already! All I say is that if you still doubt it's possible, than I look forward to trying one of these out in the near future to see if I can prove you wrong! :cool:

1) I understood what you were saying. But as you can see, they really are horses of different colors. While it was possible to do more and more advanced television after color was introduced, the fact that doing so would force a change in the standards is what kept it relatively static. Likewise, ATSC 8VSB is probably here for 15-25 years minimum, with all its advantages and disadvantages.

2) Oh, I believe you can get 18 1080i streams up on a single 6Mhz ATSC 8VSB channel using MPEG2 encoding. But none of them will look good. It's not a matter of "how many streams can we fit" but a matter of "how bad can the picture look before people stop watching?" Broadcasters seem anxious to push the limits, forgetting that pristine picture quality might keep people from watching cable or satellite, both of which have compressed their pictures to unbearable levels.

3) Okay, one channel is 60:1. Two HD channels in the same space is 120:1. Figure they might be able to magically use redundancy cross-channel (color space, for instance) and call it a more likely 90:1. That's not going to look very good.

4) We probably should take any more technical discussions into email or PM, as I'm sure we've lost 3/4 of the class already. I'd love to be wrong, and I'd love to see more HD options with no loss in picture quality. But they haven't crammed more information into a byte since the discovery of the bit, and I don't think they'll cram more high-quality video into the 19Mbps stream using MPEG2.

Please continue here...This thread doesn't get alot of traffic, and I was learning alot...or at least CC me in emails!

Jeepers, I go away for a while, and come back to find a hornets' nest buzzing. And I'm allergic to bees (OK, they're not in the same species, but who wants to tempt fate. . .).

This'll take some time.

I recently found a brand new book in a local library retelling the history and detailing the technicalities of HDTV. Not an actual how-to, but not for the faint of mind, either.

It did remind me of several things I knew way back, about some proposals (many probably never tested with real hardware) for implementation of HD.

One was actually supposed to be "compatible" - a standard analog channel would be augmented with a second (6-Mhz) channel which would add "enhancement" to the picture and sound. Other proposals WERE for 7, 8, or 9 Mhz channels (what I said earlier).

Well, we have what we have, now. Not my first choice, but nobody asked me.

mgburg: Thanks for the info re: KQEG. They never said anything publically, and don't even have a website. Seems to me they'd save some time doing it all at the transmitter. (Hey, the Lehmans [of WKBH/WKBT fame] did "live" at the transmitter sites occasionally.) I seriously wonder if Chl-23 will survive.

This business about new/refurbished networks being run as secondary channels is the worst idea since square wheels. So, in some markets, they'll be just like the big guys (actual HD), but here we'll have to squint?!

In the matter of P(ublic)BS, Yes, they do get public funding - some. Not as much as they used to. Surely you've noticed ever more begging from them folks(?). And declining programming standands. . . (repeats, after prime time, occasionly the same night or next!).

I had an exchange recently with their CE. He, too, thinks that adding their .3 program resulted in loss of quality of the primary signal. He gave me the pertinent bitrates; I'll have to look for them.

If I were an owner of a Fox affil, I'll start an Owners' Union and we'd all tell Fox we were going on strike (blackout) until they came up with 1) better programming, and 2) started paying me again. Probably I wouldn't own the station(s) very long. (I understand some people actually watch Fox.)

4lids: You've explained it, but it still doesn't compute. I know one of the local Radio Snacks had a HD monitor running for a long time - showing the PBS HD program exclusively.

I guess I'll have to reserve judgement on whether two 720s can actually still be called HD, or if some used-car salesman pulled the wool over everybodys' eyes.

(P. S. Your morning show IS in HD now - but it hadn't occured to me that it would only be the studio set - remotes in HD are pretty rare.)

sregener: You are probably aware that DirecTV is rolling out MPEG4. Their latest STB (H20) decodes that standard. You can buy them at Best Buy. They will tune terrestrial HD (though I'm not sure about MPEG4 in that case).

Has anybody heard any new news on when/if WKBT is going to be upping their digital power so that it can be had OTA in Eau Claire area?

Anyone in the Wausau area with Charter having trouble with Showtime in HD? It seems that all programs have a pulsing color change. It goes from light to dark every half second, no other channels have this effect.

Has anybody heard any new news on when/if WKBT is going to be upping their digital power so that it can be had OTA in Eau Claire area?

Nobody calls, nobody writes, it's like they don't care. But it looks like it's done. Very strong signal last night, even 40 degrees off-axis.

Yes, the WKBT project is done. We are now broadcasting our digital and analog signals from the top of our tower in Galesville. I put the new digital transmitter on the air monday morning. We did not advertise this yet because we had a number of issues during this project and wanted to wait until all the bugs were worked out. It has been holding steady since Monday night. Ch 41 is now at 494kw ERP from 468.1 meters.

YWe did not advertise this yet because we had a number of issues during this project and wanted to wait until all the bugs were worked out. It has been holding steady since Monday night. Ch 41 is now at 494kw ERP from 468.1 meters.

There are no secrets on the Internet. ;)

I'll be interested to see how stable my reception is during the heat of the day. Typically, I lose WCCO-DT during the summer months from about 10AM-4PM, with reception improving as the sun goes down.

Still, the signal looked good (not quite as good as last night) this morning. I had to dial in the rotor a bit more to get a solid lock, but then strength jumped well into the mid-range.

Kudos on the PSIP guide data - few stations are as informative. Speaking of PSIP guide data, what's up with WPT? Ever since they added a third channel, everything is just 'DTV Program'.

Nobody calls, nobody writes, it's like they don't care. But it looks like it's done. Very strong signal last night, even 40 degrees off-axis.

Hey that's great news. How many miles are you from the transmitter? I just put up a CM 4228 last week but it's not facing south at the moment. I'll give it a shot tonight.

Hey that's great news. How many miles are you from the transmitter? I just put up a CM 4228 last week but it's not facing south at the moment. I'll give it a shot tonight.

Just under 60 miles. I have *no* business getting it with my terrain...

Works great here in Eau Claire. Turned my 4228 south and get about an 87 signal strength out of 100 on my Dish Network 622.

It really is amazing what decent power and elevation can do. I get a nothing from WLAX and WEUX, a hint of a signal from WXOW, a marginally stable signal from WHLA most of the time, and a signal that registers all the way to the "Good" range on WKBT-DT - even during the day. I have local stations just 25 or so miles away that register no better than WKBT.

I only have three regrets at this point. One, that UPN is going away and I have no interest in "MyNetwork." Two, that WKBT is reverting to channel 8 in 2009. Given how poorly I get analog 8, I have no expectation that I'd be able to receive WKBT-DT-8 once the switch is made. Three, that my ABC reception situation will be resolved *after* MNF is gone.

I think you will be OK when they switch back to 8 with their digital signal. The signal strength of Ch. 8 is quite good. The problem is likely you are picking up interference with the MPR radio towers directly between Rochester and La Crosse.

When MPR switched to their new towers about 15(?) years ago they fouled up my reception of Ch 8 so I made them come out and install a high quality filter to clean it up. Hopefully the tuner will be able to decode the digital signal without the need for a filter.

I checked on DT 8.1 last night and this morning. It is coming in about the same strength as WCCO. Very nice. I'm wondering how the quality of the HD 1080i feed will be compared to WCCO since WKBT will be broadcasting a sub-channel or two.

I think you will be OK when they switch back to 8 with their digital signal. The signal strength of Ch. 8 is quite good. The problem is likely you are picking up interference with the MPR radio towers directly between Rochester and La Crosse.

That's half the problem. The other half is that I have a UHF-only antenna. :)

When I tune to channel 8, I can easily listen to classical music if I turn the antenna the right direction. I can tell you that the FM interference is more than enough to demolish the digital signal, so unless something changes with MPR, you'll need those filters.

It looks like WHWC-DT and WHLA-DT have gone to full power.

It looks like WHWC-DT and WHLA-DT have gone to full power.

Did this just happen today?

Did this just happen today?

No. But the FCC doesn't list when changes are made to their database, they just make the changes. I noticed it yesterday. I can detect no difference in reception, so it is likely that the "Licensed" after their full-power listings is inaccurate.

There are no secrets on the Internet. ;)

. . . Speaking of PSIP guide data, what's up with WPT? Ever since they added a third channel, everything is just 'DTV Program'.

A recurring problem. They have a lot of unpaid ("volunteer") help at the TOC in Madison. I think the period you saw that was during one of the many fund-raising drives. It's OK at this time, although a few programs don't have anything more than a title. The guide for after shutdown (1 am in the summer) always shows "DTV Program" or something similar, until AFTER they pull the switch, when nothing will come up (obviously). If you go to their website (wpt.org), you'll get the dope for all three channels - usually.

It appears that all the La Crosse stations have goosed power, as required, in the last week. I can even get WEAU with an unboosted antenna, in a nasty shadow, though it is highly unpredictable. I suspect intermittant ionization of the upper atmosphere (by meteorites) which reflects the primary signal and is causing multipaths. Not a new phenom.

WEAU has a second channel, in case you haven't looked. It's just a local radar screen, so don't kill yourself running to the tube/LCD.