A couple things:

1. I think Helen was hired by Locke's father.
2. I think Jin's speaking English is from a dream.

Also, I read somewhere that this sounds like the Montauk Project/Philadelphia Experiment.

preview material: why do you suppose Jin was speaking perfect english?
I don't. Jin was not speaking English. Daniel Dae Kim was speaking English.

If you look in the background there are recessed can lights unlike those in the hatch. So if he is speaking English it is in a backstory off the island.

I think they are just messing with us. It could have been any of the other actors telling us it is going to get interesting as a promo, but having him do it in English makes everyone talk about it.

I think Jack should not have pushed the execute key.

I get the feeling they are setting us up for how Locke gets paralyzed. I have a feeling he can't let it go and get's hurt by Daddy's security minions.
Don't have last season, but didn't the last Locke flashback last year end with the appearance that he kinda went crazy in the VW and the scenes implied a crash of some sort???

Maybe running Daddy down??? Crash.... Hurt legs????

This show was a real letdown for me.

Things that spoiled it were:

1. The candy bar that Kate ate had an expiration date in 2004. How did it get there if everything else is supposed to be from the 70's?

2. The washer and dryer look exactly like very recent models not available in the 70's.

3. There are bar codes on the medicine Desmond was injecting. No bar codes available in the 70's.

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.

5. If this really is a research project there would be constant communication with the company HQ by some means. No way they leave all that equipment there to rot without monitoring.

6. What's the mean time between failure for all that equipment? Half of it would not be working at this point anyway.

7. This type of computer was not made until about 1982. How does the computer post date the project?

8. For an uncharted island it sure has gotten crowded--Desmond, Kelvin, Ethan, Danielle & her group, The Others, tail section survivors and the lostaways.

I really thought this show was unique and they paid attention to so many of these details. Now I know this is not the case.

They've lost me. I'll watch it sure, but I have to lower my viewing standards for this show.

If you're going to spy on people, would you really send a woman down in a pit with 3 men?

And yeah, she's suppose to be tough but she's going to knock down a grown man with a punch?

Oh I guess if 95-pound Kate could do it, then a slightly thicker Anna Lucia can do it as well.:rolleyes:

Don't have last season, but didn't the last Locke flashback last year end with the appearance that he kinda went crazy in the VW and the scenes implied a crash of some sort???

They didn't really imply anything. They showed him upset and getting in his car, but it was only our knowledge that he was going to become paralyzed that would have led you to assume that those two events were immediately connected.

Interesting, but I wouldn't have pushed the button. Also we now have confirmation that Jack isn't married anymore I guess. I really thought he was going to shoot Desmond. Kind of amusing how the whole Desmond thing went down, and MAN did Sawyer get taken. Sucker. Not sure why the hell they are so angry in the tail section. I know it's coming, but I'm already dreading the endless backstory of the tail section people.

Was the shadowy figure in the window Locke's father?

No, he (the guy in the window) was too old to be Locke's father at the time.

This show was a real letdown for me.

Things that spoiled it were:....................

Many of the things that bothered you could be explained by a re-supply just prior to Desmond showing up. The washer & dryer were too obvious to be a mistake, so it's safe to assume that a resupply happened around 2002.

The 108 minute deal would be virtually impossible to maintain, but I guess the human body and mind could adjust to it eventually. He did have a "break-in" period with another person there that would have allowed him to first become accustomed to a 216 minute cycle before having to get on his 108 minute routine - but it would still be tough.

They managed to keep another coincidence (Jack/Desmond) isolated from the other islanders. But Locke has his suspicions, will he just let it drop?

I think that they said to alternate "shifts". So it could be one man on for 8 hrs, then switch. Not nescesarily every 216 mins.

If you're going to spy on people, would you really send a woman down in a pit with 3 men?

You bet I would. Three dudes that have been stranded on an island with hot women running around will surely be more likely to talk with another hottie rather than another dude.

This show was a real letdown for me.

Things that spoiled it were:

1. The candy bar that Kate ate had an expiration date in 2004. How did it get there if everything else is supposed to be from the 70's?

2. The washer and dryer look exactly like very recent models not available in the 70's.

3. There are bar codes on the medicine Desmond was injecting. No bar codes available in the 70's.

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.

5. If this really is a research project there would be constant communication with the company HQ by some means. No way they leave all that equipment there to rot without monitoring.

6. What's the mean time between failure for all that equipment? Half of it would not be working at this point anyway.

7. This type of computer was not made until about 1982. How does the computer post date the project?

8. For an uncharted island it sure has gotten crowded--Desmond, Kelvin, Ethan, Danielle & her group, The Others, tail section survivors and the lostaways.

I really thought this show was unique and they paid attention to so many of these details. Now I know this is not the case.

They've lost me. I'll watch it sure, but I have to lower my viewing standards for this show.
Leaving unanswered questions makes it interesting to me, not a let down. Such as, we all wondered how Desmond got there, and how long ago his encounter with Jack was. Some thought 15 years or so. But he told us it was only 3.

1, 2, & 3 can all be answered that this facility was visited just prior to Desmond wrecking on the Island, during the time of Kelvin.

4. Desmond looked like a wreck to me.

5. Who says it is not being monitored?

6. Actually, the older equipment was not made in China which means it will last longer than 3 years :p

7. The copyright date on the film that Locke/Jack viewed was 1980. The computer could easily have been put in the bunker around then, especially as a "prototype." That's not that much of a stretch.

8. Really you are talking only 4 groups of people: Others, Kelvin, and Ethan, probably part of the original experiment(s); Danielle, who crashed 16 years ago; Desmond; and then the Oceanic flight. Especially with magnetic interference, etc, it is very plausible that 3 groups could have wrecked here over a 16 year period.

Personally, I find it very good writing, all plausible, and enjoyable. Not to mention, yes, there are unanswered questions, many of which will be answered in the upcoming episodes. You just gotta be patient. If you can't, wait for it to come out on DVD and watch it all at once. I did that for season 1, as I never watched the show before this season. Sure beats all the dang commercials!


EDIT: Darn, I forgot the plane crash of the drug smugglers. 4 wrecks in 16 years ... now I don't think I believe it anymore and I'm gonna stop watching the show j/k :rolleyes: :D

a desmond flashback with his roommate calvin would be cool

I think that they said to alternate "shifts". So it could be one man on for 8 hrs, then switch. Not nescesarily every 216 mins.

That would be the assumption, but trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the writers - the best way to become accustomed to handling a 108 minute cycle alone would be to have the benefit of first being able to handle a 216 minute cycle.

Well this brings up some new questions:

1. If this Hanso Foundation is still supposedly active in 2005 - why is the island apparently in such disarray? Or is it only apparently in disarray? Is it possible that The Swan bunker actually is some sort of psychology experiment or something?

One would initially assume that it's because the money dried up, but according to The Hanso Foundation ("Still running his vast network of companies...") that's apparently not the case. Has this "section" not produced the expected results and so it's been put on the back burner, or did the "incident" have something to do with it?

Any speculation on what the "incident" may have been?

Hey...what happened to my post? I really don't think what I posted was spoiler material...?

Also as someone else said: where did the washer/dryer and recent food come from?

When asked about that, Desmond couldn't seem to come up with an answer.

My take is that he WOULDN'T (didn't) answer, as opposed to not knowing the answer.

Hey...what happened to my post? I really don't think what I posted was spoiler material...?

If it didn't come from the show or the previews - it's a spoiler. Try the spoiler thread, it's being discussed over there.

Sorry 'bout that. Thanks for the explanation.

If they were resupplying the island recently, they could resupply with a modern computer where you can automate the data-entry of the codes.

The fact that they wouldn't lends credence that it's some experiment to see if they can get some suckers to continue to enter the numbers.

Like the Milgram experiments where people were told they were administering shocks and yet most of them did it. One clue was the film mentioned BF Skinner, the guy who put his own daughter in his box.

I use to like this show but the number of commercials are killing me.

I bet when this episode comes out on DVD it will last all of maybe 20 minutes.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Tivo, Brother. It's a wonderful thing!

I wondered where electromagnetism fit in to the research studies, and found that it relates to the "unified field theory": http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci554508,00.html . Man this show is getting deep! I wonder how many scientists are acting as consultants to the writers.

Episode 3 last night was very good. Left me with these questions/thoughts.

I'm gonna assume the people who have Sawyer/Mike/Jin are the all the tail section people. Heck, next week's preview showed them helping them out of the pit and talking to them. Will the mid and tail section folks find each other anytime soon? Or maybe Mike will convince them to find the Others.

The question remains who the Others are. They could be people from other experiments who are still experimenting. That is why they wanted Mike's son. They need young blood for their experiments. And/or, they are part of the experiment gone wrong. Either way, they are tied to Dharma somehow, which explains why they have guns and fairly modern boats, etc.

What is going to happen to Desmond? Is he going to end up a loner like Rousseau? Why not stay with other people? Personally, I'd rather die with other people than take off. Or is he going to find the remains of his sailing craft? May be another way to attempt to get off the island.

Will they try to rebuild the raft? The high school teacher already told them that now is not a good time to take off and they would need to wait several months for a good time.

The previews seemed to hint that the survivors in the bunker agreed not to tell the other survivors about the bunker. But word gets out, it seems, as Charlie was mad at Hurley. (was that milk Hurley was drinking in the one preview? How?)

So what DOES happen if they do not enter the code? At least they have some food and a place to shower.

The biggest question of them all: Which lucky two will get the bunk beds?

Interesting, but I wouldn't have pushed the button. Also we now have confirmation that Jack isn't married anymore I guess. I really thought he was going to shoot Desmond. Kind of amusing how the whole Desmond thing went down, and MAN did Sawyer get taken. Sucker. Not sure why the hell they are so angry in the tail section. I know it's coming, but I'm already dreading the endless backstory of the tail section people.

I don't think it's been proven that these ARE the tail section people, has it?

This show was a real letdown for me.

Things that spoiled it were:
...

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.

...



I agree. But that didn't make it a letdown. Maybe Desmond is in with the "others". Maybe he was lying, and didn't enter the code all the time?

Why not stay with other people? Personally, I'd rather die with other people than take off.

Personally, I'd rather run and live alone than die with a group.

... At least they have some food and a place to shower.


A place for Kate to shower! :D

Personally, I'd rather run and live alone than die with a group.
I'd rather stick with others and have a better chance of survival than run out of the food and meds I grabbed and then die alone.

Here's what I'm thinking:
Locke got paralyzed when there was an accident at the box factory that he worked at, owned by Hurley. Hurley's financial planner mentioned this to him in his flashback episode. I think it was a fire.

Jin's English skills are related to his job with his father-in-law. He has allied with the tail section people, and told them about Sawyer's gun ahead of time.

The DHARMA people are mad about their dead polar bear

Great episode, and the single best line in the series so far from Locke:
"We're going to need to watch that again."

An obvious nod from the writers to all the LOST geeks out there, brilliant! :D

I'd rather stick with others and have a better chance of survival than run out of the food and meds I grabbed and then die alone.

In Desmond's mind, staying means death, not survival. You can always come back if nothing happens.

The guess above about Desmond having a roommate was actually correct!

Was I the only one who said something when they put Anna Lucia in the pit and Sawyer started spilling his guts to her?

3. There are bar codes on the medicine Desmond was injecting. No bar codes available in the 70's.

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.I stand by my guess above that the drugs were his method of staying awake to keep entering the code every hour and a half. Of course, he's addicted, so he had to take a bunch with him when he fled the bunker.7. This type of computer was not made until about 1982. How does the computer post date the project?I guess it could have been "updated" a few years after the bunker was created.

But I thought it was interesting that the film said (if I understood between faux film jumps) not to use the computer for anything else. No playing games with it :-)

***

I was also very disappointed with this episode. All the hype indicated we'd learn a lot early this season (the first 2 1/2 hours!). Well, so far this season we've learned:

- that the hatch leads to a bunker in which someone enters the evil numbers as a code to keep something from happening. Nobody seemed interested in what that something is enough to ask. The film was a waste of time and told us nothing we didn't already know (polar bears, magnetism, enter the code, etc.).

- there are at least two other survivors from the plane crash. Anna Lucia must be from the plane, since she mentioned the flight number before Sawyer/Michael/Jin. Since the voice on the radio was male, that's at least two. It's also probably very safe to assume the other people with Anna Lucia are from there as well. (I'll guess there are 23 of them :-) )

Did they actually reveal anything else?

We don't know what the "sickness" is. And no one cared to ask Desmond.
We don't know who the "others" are. And no one cared to ask Desmond.
We don't know the nature of the experiments. And the flim didn't say.
We don't know anything about the cloud monsters. And no one cared to ask Desmond.
We don't know how the increasingly huge island was invisible to the searchers (1000 miles off course is one thing, but this island must be huge if these different groups of people have not stumbled across each other in 40+ days).


Even next week's promo was annoying. It doesn't look like it's answer any questions. There will be a lot of anarchy and infighting, but I don't see where there will be any progess. But at least Jin speaking english was surprising. Of course, there's no guarantee we'll see that next week.

Xesdeeni

The film mentioned "an incident". So, it looks like there were at least two "incidents". The first, the one he mentioned, must have taken place during the mid-to-late 70's. (Figure a few years to build the place from the 1970 founding of Dharma but prior to the making of the orientation film in 1980.) The second incident, where Rousseau's science group got sick, was a maximum of 16 years ago, or 1989 or thereabouts.

Don't know what that all means, but proud that I'm the first to notice it! :D

So who will be the first of the main characters to become "sick"?

They seem to be very "warlike" compared to the other group; maybe they've already been attacked by the real others? .

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code ever 108 minutes!

They seem to be very "warlike" compared to the other group; maybe they've already been attacked by the real others? .

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code every 108 minutes!

I was also very disappointed with this episode. All the hype indicated we'd learn a lot early this season (the first 2 1/2 hours!). Well, so far this season we've learned:

I think you're forgetting how little we knew at the end of S1.

I was also very disappointed with this episode. All the hype indicated we'd learn a lot early this season (the first 2 1/2 hours!).

I think you're forgetting how little we knew at the end of S1.

They seem to be very "warlike" compared to the other group; maybe they've already been attacked by the real others? .

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code every 108 minutes!

For what it's worth, the stuff that Desmond has been injecting has the same numbers printed on it as the input code.

They seem to be very "warlike" compared to the other group; maybe they've already been attacked by the real others? .

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code every 108 minutes!

http://www.thehansofoundation.org

Kinda cool.

Check out the "terms of use" link there...disney.go.com/corporate/privacy/terms.html

The multimedia onslaught of this show just keeps growing.

In the previews - what was Jin holding? Some big yellow stuffed toy? Where's he at?

I'm guessing this is part of a flashback taken out of context, but my wife says she thinks he is "where the children are kept".

If it's a flashback, is it possible he was forced, as part of his mission, to memorize a few English phrases?

Yes but that was PERFECT English he was speaking (the actor is in fact american of Korean descent). Should be interesting to see where they go with this.

I found it interesting that even on the film, they mentioned that "something had gone wrong" on the island.

At first I was thinking this was an experiment that had been started then forgotten, but as was mentioned on the show, "where's the food coming from?" Also, someone has to be paying the electric bill. So, it is all one big experimental lab and the "voices" are the observers?

Actually I think the 'voices' are part of the Remote Viewing experiment...

I found them to be much less evil when AAA asked Anna:

"What happened, who are they"

They appear to be as much in the dark as the mid-plane survivors. The war-like attitude is just survival and probably a result of contending with hostile forces with real weapons. It's also a little more realistic result than the golf course building, taking it easy type of atmosphere on the other side of the island.

They likely would have captured the French lady, tied her up, and beat some answers out of her. In other words, these tail survivors have some sense. :)

I was also very disappointed with this episode. All the hype indicated we'd learn a lot early this season (the first 2 1/2 hours!). Well, so far this season we've learned: ....

...........



Xesdeeni


Part of the brilliance of this show, for me, is exactly it's ability to answer some questions, while continuing to raise additional ones. I DON'T want everything answered in 1 or 2 shows (there are 100 crime drama shows that wrap everything up in an hour). I thoroughly enjoy speculating about the mysteries on the show, and frankly would be a bit disappointed if most of the questions were answered quickly. The continuing elaborate story arcs, and the detail within, are the greatest strenghths of the show, IMO.

The Turn of the Screw by Henry James (book the orientation film was hidden behind): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812533410/104-6306687-7036763?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien (book lying next to a Bible on Desmond's bunk (?) after Jack sees the picture of Desmond and a woman): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156478214X/104-6306687-7036763?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Personally, I'd rather run and live alone than die with a group.

I think he's a goner one way or another.

...there are at least two other survivors from the plane crash. Anna Lucia must be from the plane, since she mentioned the flight number before Sawyer/Michael/Jin.

She could have gotten that information by/from infiltrating the tail section people just as she did with Sawyer and the other two.

Don't have last season, but didn't the last Locke flashback last year end with the appearance that he kinda went crazy in the VW and the scenes implied a crash of some sort???

Maybe running Daddy down??? Crash.... Hurt legs????

The flashbacks we are seeing take place after that....

a desmond flashback with his roommate calvin would be cool

I second that....how did Calvin die anyway?

Personally, I'd rather run and live alone than die with a group.


It would depend on the group. But I'm more of a loner than a joiner myself, so I'd have to agree.

7. The copyright date on the film that Locke/Jack viewed was 1980. The computer could easily have been put in the bunker around then, especially as a "prototype." That's not that much of a stretch.

I'm not sure if any of the DVR type people in this thread identified exactly which model of computer it is, but to me it looked just like the original Apple II. The Apple II came on to the market in 1977 so it would definitely fit.


I don't think the people holding Sawyer et al are the tail section survivors, if there even are any survivors of the back end. The "spy" never actually volunteered information out right. Like a good spy she just stood there quiet when they asked questions and waited for them to tell her what her answer should be. They were the ones who suggested she must be from the tail section and she simply agreed giving some lame story about waking up under water and somehow getting oriented and making it to the surface before drowning. They could be tail section survivors I suppose, but really they're most likely just the "others" who were there long before the plane crash.

As for the island being crowded, it would seem that if there's some sort of serious magnetic "anomaly" at the site then it might be like some sort of Bermuda triangle ocassionally drawing ships or planes off course by making their navigational equipment go haywire.

Several posts have suggested that we are 'assuming' Anna was on the flight because she knew the flight number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she was in a flashback last season....at the bar with Jack I think??

Jin's English skills are related to his job with his father-in-law. He has allied with the tail section people, and told them about Sawyer's gun ahead of time.



I don't know about that....why would he hide his English after his wife got outed? No reason to hide it after that if all his English was just related to was his father-in-law's work.

Does anyone else think Alvar Hanso could be portrayed by William B. Davis (Cigarette Smoking Man from The X-Files)?

Just follow Desmond if you want more answers. He may be fast, but in about 10 - 30 minutes, his body will drop to the ground for an involuntary 30 minute cat nap. ;)

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code ever 108 minutes!

I just think both groups have had very different reactions to the dangers posed by the island.

The front section has been more defensive, and luckily they have guns which are a great equalizer.

The tail section appears to have gone on the offensive, with weapons for everyone, a pit for prisoners (why the pit anyway, have they caught one of the Others before, like they should have caught Ethan if it weren't for Charlie?)

Several posts have suggested that we are 'assuming' Anna was on the flight because she knew the flight number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she was in a flashback last season....at the bar with Jack I think??

Yes - with a Flight 815 seat assignment.

I second that....how did Calvin die anyway?

Desmond said he got sick.

Anna Lucia was definitely in a flashback with Jack where she states that she is sitting in the last row of the plane.

I don't think the people holding Sawyer et al are the tail section survivors, if there even are any survivors of the back end. The "spy" never actually volunteered information out right. Like a good spy she just stood there quiet when they asked questions and waited for them to tell her what her answer should be. They were the ones who suggested she must be from the tail section and she simply agreed giving some lame story about waking up under water and somehow getting oriented and making it to the surface before drowning. They could be tail section survivors I suppose, but really they're most likely just the "others" who were there long before the plane crash.



Ana Lucia appeared in the season finale in one of Jack's flashbacks. They discussed the flight that they would both be on, and she said she was in the back of the plane (forget what row).

The only way this group are NOT tail section survivors is if Ana Lucia was lying to Jack about being on the flight, and came to the island some other way. I don't think that's very likely.

Yes - with a Flight 815 seat assignment.


she also said what row she was sitting in and how she hated sitting in the way back of the plane because of engine noise..... or something to that extent.

I don't think the people holding Sawyer et al are the tail section survivors, if there even are any survivors of the back end. The "spy" never actually volunteered information out right. Like a good spy she just stood there quiet when they asked questions and waited for them to tell her what her answer should be. They were the ones who suggested she must be from the tail section and she simply agreed giving some lame story about waking up under water and somehow getting oriented and making it to the surface before drowning. They could be tail section survivors I suppose, but really they're most likely just the "others" who were there long before the plane crash.

That doesn't really fit. Our single exposure to the Others showed us that whatever their agenda, they either know all they need to about the survivors, or they don't care beyond getting the kid.

You could tell from AAA's tone that he is completely in the dark, and trying to get some answers.

Ana Lucia appeared in the season finale in one of Jack's flashbacks. They discussed the flight that they would both be on, and she said she was in the back of the plane (forget what row).

For some reason Row 42 seems to ring a bell. ;)

She could have gotten that information by/from infiltrating the tail section people just as she did with Sawyer and the other two.

We know that at least Anna Lucia was on the plane since she gave Jack her seat number in the bar scene flashback from season 1. We can't be sure her cohorts outside of the pit are also from the same crash but I think it's a safe bet that they are all crash survivors.

I'm really looking forward to the crash sequence from the tail section perspective.

I know his age is all wrong, but I had a good laugh thinking it would be funny if "Shaft" (hilarious, thank you, Sawyer) turned out to be the sad lady's husband from the tail section. Talk about a surprise for her!

I'm really looking forward to the crash sequence from the tail section perspective.

That would be awesome, and why not, they have looked at the entry into the hatch from every possible angle. Hopefully, 3 episodes of coverage is enough, and they will move on. Or not.

Ana Lucia appeared in the season finale in one of Jack's flashbacks. They discussed the flight that they would both be on, and she said she was in the back of the plane (forget what row).

The only way this group are NOT tail section survivors is if Ana Lucia was lying to Jack about being on the flight, and came to the island some other way. I don't think that's very likely.

Ahhh, OK. I wasn't really into the show last season so I didn't know that. The show seemed to really plod along and I just occasionally looked at it out the corner of my eye while doing other things so I have only a general idea of what's gone on up to now. Now that so much is being revealed I admit I'm starting to become a bit addicted and I'll likely not miss an episode of this season.

I'll refrain from commenting further until I get more caught up so as not to waste anyone's time. ;)

If they weren't trending away from the supernatural - I'd be thinking that the tail section survivors' bodies were being held in some sort of limbo. As mid-plane survivors die, their souls inhabit a rear survivor body.

In that case Anna Lucia could be the Marshal. She was sternly questioning about the gun and how Sawyer ended up with it. She also mentioned that a hard case had knocked her out at the time of the plane crash......

she also said what row she was sitting in and how she hated sitting in the way back of the plane because of engine noise..... or something to that extent.
She said it was where the wheels come down - which is not quite true. The rear wheelset is actually closer to the middle of the plane - right about where the wings meet the body.

At least they have some food and a place to shower.


I can't believe no one's mentioned the scene from the preview with Jack walking in on Kate in the shower!

EDIT: My bad, Innova beat me to it.

Let's keep the baseball comments to one of the MLB threads. Last time it came up, we ended up staying off-topic for awhile (I'm as guilty as others). But we finally got back on track, so let's not quote old posts and get side-tracked again.

I can't believe no one's mentioned the scene from the preview with Jack walking in on Kate in the shower!

EDIT: My bad, Innova beat me to it.

Hehe, I was just going to say: Ahem! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6310485&highlight=kate+shower#post6310485)

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.
Sleep cycles (drowsiness, light sleep, delta sleep, non-REM, REM) last, on average, about 100 minutes. You could get used to getting up every 108 minutes...


7. This type of computer was not made until about 1982. How does the computer post date the project?

The Apple II was introduced in June 1977 (the Apple II Plus, in 1979). Since the Orientation film has a 1980 copyright date, I'd guess an Apple II could have possibly been available...

~Dan

The film mentioned "an incident". So, it looks like there were at least two "incidents". The first, the one he mentioned, must have taken place during the mid-to-late 70's. (Figure a few years to build the place from the 1970 founding of Dharma but prior to the making of the orientation film in 1980.) The second incident, where Rousseau's science group got sick, was a maximum of 16 years ago, or 1989 or thereabouts.

Don't know what that all means, but proud that I'm the first to notice it! :D

Maybe Rousseau and her crew were part of the zoology project...either as researchers or subjects...whether they were aware of their role or not.

Back to the numbers. The guy in the looney bin that gave Hurley the numbers went crazy from being in the bunker.

Desmond states that when he landed/crashed on the island Calvin grabbed him and took him to the hatch. Calvin somehow later dies.

Film states that there are supposed to be two people in the hatch.

Theory: The other guy that was supposed to be with Calvin went insane and somehow got off the island. When rescued or picked up all he did was mutter the numbers over and over. The same guy Hurley meets in the asylum. I see a Hurley flashback coming soon.

Maybe all of the people on the plane were handpicked in advance by the Dharma people. Great experiment

Where did "Shaft" get the chef's knife?

I think Jack should not have pushed the execute key.
Well, the island didn't blow up, so they'll have plenty of chances (every 108 minutes) to NOT push the button...

Speaking of the clock...regarding our earlier discussion of the seconds not moving during the extended camera shot after the clock is reset to 108 minutes, it looks like the second don't start counting-down until the 4 minute mark, when the alarm starts sounding...

~Dan

I can't believe no one's mentioned the scene from the preview with Jack walking in on Kate in the shower!

EDIT: My bad, Innova beat me to it.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/bharral/kate.jpg

"We're gonna have to watch that again."

Best. Quote. Ever!!

Someone briefly mentioned this earlier, but no one followed up on it. The orientation film has a line that says something like, "In the tradition of B.F. Skinner...." and then cuts off.

The simplified explanation from Wikipedia:

"Burrhus Frederic Skinner (March 20, 1904 – August 18, 1990) was an American psychologist and author. He conducted pioneering work on experimental psychology and advocated behaviorism, which seeks to understand behavior as a function of environmental histories of reinforcement. He also wrote a number of controversial works in which he proposed the widespread use of psychological behavior modification techniques (primarily operant conditioning) in order to improve society and increase human happiness."

This obviously seems to support the notion that the countdown sequence is a behavioral experiment.

This show may be a slow tease, but it's masterfully done. I'm pissed that my local station pre-empted this episode so that we could see the Red Sox lose miserably. I had to watch at 11:30 and they didn't even broadcast it in HD. Bastards.

If they weren't trending away from the supernatural - I'd be thinking that the tail section survivors' bodies were being held in some sort of limbo. As mid-plane survivors die, their souls inhabit a rear survivor body.

In that case Anna Lucia could be the Marshal. She was sternly questioning about the gun and how Sawyer ended up with it. She also mentioned that a hard case had knocked her out at the time of the plane crash......

She's clearly got some sort of hand-to-hand combat and weapons training. Even with a bum shoulder, Sawyer shouldn't have gotten beaten so handily unless she knew exactly what she was doing.

Back to the numbers. The guy in the looney bin that gave Hurley the numbers went crazy from being in the bunker.

That's the logical explanation.

What about the illogical ones, like the numbers hitting the lotto (mere coincidence?) or all the cast members sitting in the rows corresponding to those numbers or all the other connections with those numbers?

Also, I agree with people who say that the Dutch (?) guy in the window looks like Locke's father. That was my first thought when seeing it.

The question remains who the Others are. They could be people from other experiments who are still experimenting. That is why they wanted Mike's son. They need young blood for their experiments.
As the Hanso Foundation (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html) web site points out, one of their research projects is "The Hanso Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute"

The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) states that, Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through social intervention....commonly include birth control, selective breeding, and genetic engineering.

:eek:

~Dan

Jin's English skills are related to his job with his father-in-law. He has allied with the tail section people, and told them about Sawyer's gun ahead of time.
Ana-Lucia seemed rather surprised about the gun...


The DHARMA people are mad about their dead polar bear
And then Michael goes and shoots their shark!

~Dan

"We're going to have to watch that again."
An obvious nod from the writers to all the LOST geeks out there, brilliant! :D

I loved that line!

~Dan

Theory: The other guy that was supposed to be with Calvin went insane and somehow got off the island. When rescued or picked up all he did was mutter the numbers over and over. The same guy Hurley meets in the asylum. I see a Hurley flashback coming soon.


My guess would be Calvin and Ethan were in the bunker together. The asylum guy was probably part of a previous pair. IIRC, the intended duration was supposed to be 14 or 15 months per pair.

I was also very disappointed with this episode. All the hype indicated we'd learn a lot early this season (the first 2 1/2 hours!). Well, so far this season we've learned:
<snip>
Even next week's promo was annoying. It doesn't look like it's answer any questions. There will be a lot of anarchy and infighting, but I don't see where there will be any progess.

Yeah, the should have just made Lost a 2-hour mini-series and been done with it. :rolleyes:

~Dan

We could have 5 more hatch-blowing season finales. :)

so were supposed to believe that if the numbers arent entered every 108 minutes, the world will blow up/die/catastrophy? as desmond said he pushes the button to "save the world". I would say pressing the button is a pretty important task, whoever put the computer there to push the button are leaving it to this guy who just happend to just land there? He's been there 3 years, his "partner" died, and nobody came as a replacement? No type of fail safe/abort/nothing? what if a bear ate through the elecric wire, or lightning hit it, and there was no elecricity to run the computer, the whole world would blow up? The button is a experiment no question, nothing will happen if he doesnt push it. Besides the fact how the hell does an apple computer run 24/7 for for at least 20 years and still work??? And shouldnt that stupid little cursor be burned well into the screen by now.

Several posts have suggested that we are 'assuming' Anna was on the flight because she knew the flight number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she was in a flashback last season....at the bar with Jack I think??

Correct...she was on the plane, in row 42.

~Dan

I just think both groups have had very different reactions to the dangers posed by the island.

The front section has been more defensive, and luckily they have guns which are a great equalizer.

And Locke's survivalist skills...

The mid-section of the plane also holds the bulk of the baggage and cargo, so they probably got the better "booty" from the crash...

~Dan

so they probably got the better "booty" from the crash...

After seeing Anna Lucia tumbling down in that hole, I'd strongly disagree with your assessment. :)

She said it was where the wheels come down - which is not quite true. The rear wheelset is actually closer to the middle of the plane - right about where the wings meet the body.

When Ana-Lucia first said that, I thought, what was the last plane you were on, a DC-3? :D

~Dan

So Desmond has passed the torch to our group, just like others to him. The guy Hurly met will have a tie to the swan..?

Is Anna the only survivor from the tail section? Didn't it seem she was proving her worth to the guy pulling her up? Like see I did good. Maybe that group has been there a long time and she is just trying to secure her place with them.

Comments have been made that when Jin visited Suns father (in a Jin/Sun flashback) that he had the Dharma Logo on his PC monitor. I have to look at then from the S1 DVD.

*EDIT- More likely to be Sun's father not his since he was a fisherman.

I was dying to know what part they gave Adewale Akinna... uh Akinnoja... uh, I mean Adebesi, one of the original incarcerated psychopaths from Oz. I hardly recognized him since I'd never seen him on that side of a cage before. I'm sure that dude runs that part of the island and that would explain why they're so warlike. :)

If they were resupplying the island recently, they could resupply with a modern computer where you can automate the data-entry of the codes.

The fact that they wouldn't lends credence that it's some experiment to see if they can get some suckers to continue to enter the numbers. I was wondering this same thing. The whole 108 minute, press or don't press the button is reminding me of this movie quote:

Dr. Evil: I have an even better idea. I'm going to place him in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.

(From Marc Berman’s Programming Insider column of Thursday, October 6, 2005 at Mediaweek.com)

“…At 9 p.m., there was no stopping ABC’s Lost, with the must see drama first overall for the evening at a 14.3/20 in the overnights, 22.04 million viewers and a 9.0/22 among adults 18-49. Comparatively, that built from lead-in George Lopez by a massive 113 percent in the overnights, 12.42 million viewers and 143 percent among adults 18-49…”

(Source: Nielsen Media Research data)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the guy in the loonie bin got the numbers because he was in the NAVY and heard them from a long range listening post in the Pacific. The guy in the loonie bin and the guy who moved to the Outback were supposedly in the NAVY together and both her the numbers broadcast.

Better "booty"

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3769/michellerodriguez6sg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I use to like this show but the number of commercials are killing me.
You really need a DVR that can timeshift. With one of those, you just start watching Lost 15-20 minutes after it starts and click right over every commercial. This is definitely one show where commercial breaks mess up the experience.

so were supposed to believe that if the numbers arent entered every 108 minutes, the world will blow up/die/catastrophy? as desmond said he pushes the button to "save the world". I would say pressing the button is a pretty important task, whoever put the computer there to push the button are leaving it to this guy who just happend to just land there? He's been there 3 years, his "partner" died, and nobody came as a replacement? No type of fail safe/abort/nothing? what if a bear ate through the elecric wire, or lightning hit it, and there was no elecricity to run the computer, the whole world would blow up?
Well, Desmond just happens to be a Responsible Citizen, who's not willing to press the world's luck by not entering the code every 108 minutes...


The button is a experiment no question, nothing will happen if he doesnt push it.
Probably...we're just going to have to wait and see...


Besides the fact how the hell does an apple computer run 24/7 for for at least 20 years and still work???
He had a soldering iron and a spare motherboard; perhaps other spare parts, too...


And shouldnt that stupid little cursor be burned well into the screen by now.
How do you know that it wasn't burned-in?

~Dan

If they weren't trending away from the supernatural - I'd be thinking that the tail section survivors' bodies were being held in some sort of limbo. As mid-plane survivors die, their souls inhabit a rear survivor body.

In that case Anna Lucia could be the Marshal. She was sternly questioning about the gun and how Sawyer ended up with it. She also mentioned that a hard case had knocked her out at the time of the plane crash......

Supernatural aspects aside, at a minimum, it's quite possible that Anna Lucia knew or was affiliated with the Marshal.

As the Hanso Foundation (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html) web site points out, one of their research projects is "The Hanso Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute"

The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) states that, Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through social intervention....commonly include birth control, selective breeding, and genetic engineering.

:eek:

~Dan

CLONES BABY! :-)

so were supposed to believe that if the numbers arent entered every 108 minutes, the world will blow up/die/catastrophy? as desmond said he pushes the button to "save the world". I would say pressing the button is a pretty important task, whoever put the computer there to push the button are leaving it to this guy who just happend to just land there? He's been there 3 years, his "partner" died, and nobody came as a replacement? No type of fail safe/abort/nothing? what if a bear ate through the elecric wire, or lightning hit it, and there was no elecricity to run the computer, the whole world would blow up? The button is a experiment no question, nothing will happen if he doesnt push it. Besides the fact how the hell does an apple computer run 24/7 for for at least 20 years and still work??? And shouldnt that stupid little cursor be burned well into the screen by now.

Perhaps it started as an experiment...but now it's real and they really DO have to keep pushing that button. Someone whose powers imagined a worst case scenario if the button wasn't pushed and made that scenario reality. Dunno.

Is it just me or is Jack getting a bit whiny...He seems to be getting pouty and over emotional. His reaction to Desmond seems a bit over stressed. Probably it will be explained through further flashbacks. It looked like the picture of Desmond he glanced at was with his wife, which didn't trigger a flashback, but in the last confrontation, there seemed an a lot left unsaid.

Anyway, I hope they calm him down or I'm going to start finding him annoying.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the guy in the loonie bin got the numbers because he was in the NAVY and heard them from a long range listening post in the Pacific. The guy in the loonie bin and the guy who moved to the Outback were supposedly in the NAVY together and both her the numbers broadcast.

Agreed. Plus Danielle remembers hearing the numbers being broadcast. It's what drew them towards the island at first and let to their being shipwrecked.

I loved Desmond's response to Jack saying "have you ever thought that nothing may happen?"

...ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Well, Desmond just happens to be a Responsible Citizen, who's not willing to press the world's luck by not entering the code every 108 minutes...



Probably...we're just going to have to wait and see...



He had a soldering iron and a spare motherboard; perhaps other spare parts, too...



How do you know that it wasn't burned-in?

~Dan
i dont think desmond is not so much responsible, as he is gullable. If he didnt come along then the world would end when the other guy died?? And if somebody is "watching" him, then shouldnt they have sent in a replacement when the other guy died, if not to have 2 people there at all times like they should, then at least because desmond is just some "guy", not somebody you wouldnt think should be left with the task of saving the world all alone. And as far as the burn in, i didnt think of it till now so im not 100% sure there isnt, but i think they showed the screen right before syad turned it on and the cursor came up, after 20 years of being on im pretty sure burn in would be there even without any power. I dont think that means anything, just an oversite by the props guys.

It's worth noting that the name of Desmond's missing roommate, Calvin, is probably meant to be a reference to John Calvin and hence Calvinism, much as the names Locke and Rousseau are significant. Calvin was a believer in predestination, which obviously figures heavily in the themes of the show.

Desmond's roomate was named "Kelvin", not Calvin. Closed captioning works wonders.

I'm beginning to think that the "utopian" scientific endeavor got diverted when something special was discovered about the island. Or perhaps the financial backer used the scientists' to help him use the island for whatever reason.

Plus I've started to wonder if Locke's mother was involved in the experiment at some point. Maybe Locke was ON the island when he was younger but has no memory of it. Remember she said he was "special."

And that makes me wonder if Locke has some special abilities much like Walt does. I'm thinking that Walt and his abilities (whatever they may actually be) are a threat to the bad guys.

after 20 years of being on im pretty sure burn in would be there even without any power. I dont think that means anything, just an oversite by the props guys.
Another insignificant thing about the screen is that the cursor slowly reveals every character pixel by pixel instead of printing a character and advancing to the next column like, well, every other computer and terminal I've ever seen. Maybe that was the prop guy's idea to make the computer (or whatever it's talking to) look really slow and primitive.

I thought the name was Kelvin?

Anyone check the closed captions?

I thought the name was Kelvin?

Anyone check the closed captions?

See 2 posts before yours.

Everybody here is saying or assuming that not pushing the button will cause the world to "blow up", but in the orientation film it was stated that the "protocol" of entering the numbers and pushing the button came about as a result of "an incident". It would follow that whatever pushing the button prevents is something that has already happened at least once in the past; blowing up the world obviously wasn't it.

Is it just me or is Jack getting a bit whiny...He seems to be getting pouty and over emotional. His reaction to Desmond seems a bit over stressed. Probably it will be explained through further flashbacks. It looked like the picture of Desmond he glanced at was with his wife, which didn't trigger a flashback, but in the last confrontation, there seemed an a lot left unsaid.

Anyway, I hope they calm him down or I'm going to start finding him annoying.

maybe he's the 1st of the group to get "sick."

i wanna see anna lucia & kate get into a catfight. all those in favor, say, "catfight!"

maybe he's the 1st of the group to get "sick."Now that's the way to find a cure for a disease - have the doctor get sick. I like it.

As soon as the person played by Michelle Rodriguez started asking multiple questions about Sawyer's gun, I said to my wife "I bet she's a spy." To me it seems like she is part of the group of survivors from the rear of the plane, and they sent her in to find out who the three guys were and what they knew.

That was kind of a nice twist but not very realistic.

Think about it. If you were on the island, and found three new people what would you do? Let us also assume that you have previously seen the "others". Maybe the "others" even killed/kidnapped some of your group.

I know that I may lock the new people up until I found out more about them, but I certainly wouldn't send anyone in the pit with them. Why didn't they just question them from outside the pit?

I can't imagine many survivors coming out of the tail section of the plane if it went in the water. Maybe Anna Lucia was the only one.

Surely the guys running the experiment on the island have/had some way of monitoring what's going on there. They saw fit to upgrade the bunker with a new washer and dryer and who knows what else and likely had to ensure power supply to the bunker and its "critical" computer. Something seems to have happened to their planned bunker staff for them to take on a random boatwreck victim. I'm suspecting that they're all dead or have abandoned it for some reason or another. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have approached the mid section survivors right away to keep them from interfering with their "project"?

There is so much we don't know (that's whats great about this show). Desmond is the first person in the "project". Kelvin could have been an actor in on it. And he just gave Desmond the whole speel. The Orientation movie is made up, and the project just started 3 years ago with Desmond.

One of many possibilities.

I can't imagine many survivors coming out of the tail section of the plane if it went in the water. Maybe Anna Lucia was the only one.

We know there were at least 4 or 5 that we've seen.

Yes but that was PERFECT English he was speaking (the actor is in fact american of Korean descent). Should be interesting to see where they go with this.

Both me and my roommate thought it was a "promo" for the show, by the ACTOR playing Jin. It didn't appear to be "in" the story, but in a studio. I don't think it was Jin (the character) saying anything in English in the actual show. It was the actor, doing a promo, telling us that "everything will change."

Surely the guys running the experiment on the island have/had some way of monitoring what's going on there. They saw fit to upgrade the bunker with a new washer and dryer...

Washers and dryers don't last forever, so obviously they were a replacement or a response to a request for them.

I think this takes us back to the black vs. white, good vs. evil theme from early in the show. Maybe the front section passengers are "good" while the rear section group is "evil".

Makes for a nice study of human nature to give us differing outcomes from similar circumstances, huh? Maybe that's the experiment as much as making someone type in the code every 108 minutes!
What that worth posting 3 times?

I can't imagine many survivors coming out of the tail section of the plane if it went in the water. Maybe Anna Lucia was the only one.
We don't know how much of her story is true. She probably painted a dire picture so that Sawyer and Michael would accept that she was the only survivor and not suspect that she was part of the group keeping them captive.

Also, it is very unlikely that many in the mid section would survive either but 40 something did.

Does anyone else think Alvar Hanso could be portrayed by William B. Davis (Cigarette Smoking Man from The X-Files)?

That was my first thought when I saw the image.

I assumed Jin speaking English was from a dream or illusion or something, like Locke and Shannon have had.

Who was the girl in the picture standing next do Desmond? Or did I also miss that in the previous posts?

And, FWIW, producers of the show contacted the publishers of "The Third Policeman" about four months ago regarding the use of the book in this episode. Which, of course, tells us nothing.

Doc

So this year's season ending cliffhanger will be the clock hitting zero before anyone pushes execute?

i wanna see anna lucia & kate get into a catfight. all those in favor, say, "catfight!"

CATFIGHT!!!

We know there were at least 4 or 5 that we've seen.
I'm wondering if the Adebesi character might be from the crashed drug plane...I would think they would have to tie that plane back into the story other than just Charlie being a drug addict.

I assumed Jin speaking English was from a dream or illusion or something, like Locke and Shannon have had.

The more I watch it, the more it seems it is the actor, not the character.

Besides the fact how the hell does an apple computer run 24/7 for for at least 20 years and still work???

Easy: the older computers are less complex, and better built. I've got an entire basement full of computers from the 70's and early 80's. All work perfectly. I had one (circa 1979) running round the clock for a long time, as an elaborate alarm clock (had a light sensor from radio shack wired up to a joystick controller, then wrote a program to sense the amount of light and set off an alarm once it reached a certain level.)

Those computers can run, and run, and run.

At the school district I work for, there are still a handful of Apple II's in daily use by kindergardners. Daily use.

Who was the girl in the picture standing next do Desmond? Or did I also miss that in the previous posts?



Doc
From the way Jack was looking at it I first thought it might have been his wife/ex-wife..but it didn't seem to respond adversely to it, but it obviously means something.

I'm wondering if the Adebesi character might be from the crashed drug plane...I would think they would have to tie that plane back into the story other than just Charlie being a drug addict.

Good point - that would bump us up to 6 "groups".

Good point - that would bump us up to 6 "groups".
Good point as well, hadn't even thought of that.. :)

What that worth posting 3 times?

No, that WAS not worth posting 3 times...actually, I think it ended up being 4.

Sorry, my browser was hanging with a "waiting for avsforum.com...." message...guess each subsequent submit got posted any way. oops.

I was really just trying to gain some ground in the post count standings ;)

Here's what I'm thinking:
Locke got paralyzed when there was an accident at the box factory that he worked at, owned by Hurley. Hurley's financial planner mentioned this to him in his flashback episode. I think it was a fire.

Jin's English skills are related to his job with his father-in-law. He has allied with the tail section people, and told them about Sawyer's gun ahead of time.


Interesting about Hurley. Man, sometimes I wish I saved all my Lost episodes but the HD versions take too much space on my HD Tivo.

Regarding Jin, what happened to his wife? She hasn't showed up on any of the episodes.

Did Desmond say he was on a "solar race around the world" or "solo..." when his boat wrecked on/near the island?

Anyone else notice the model of the "bunker" in the Orientation film? It looks more like a glass bubble. Could the "bunker" have originally been above ground?

Some of the views of the ceiling in “bunker” appears to be some sort of clear material with dirt covering it?

I don't get why they need so many guns in there if this is just a research lab.

Is this bunker just designed to put people under max stress and see what happens when you give them guns?

Also as someone else said: where did the washer/dryer and recent food come from?

When asked about that, Desmond couldn't seem to come up with an answer.

I was thinking the same thing.

What supposed "Utopian" society as mentioned in the orientation tape would be armed to the teeth?

-Tony

I don't think it's been proven that these ARE the tail section people, has it?

The girl is right? She was talking to Jack in the airport lounge and had seat 42F. That is the very last row on the plane.

If they aren't part of the "tail" section then why would they be working with her, which they apparently are?

-Tony

Here's what I'm thinking:
Locke got paralyzed when there was an accident at the box factory that he worked at, owned by Hurley. Hurley's financial planner mentioned this to him in his flashback episode. I think it was a fire.

Jin's English skills are related to his job with his father-in-law. He has allied with the tail section people, and told them about Sawyer's gun ahead of time.

The DHARMA people are mad about their dead polar bear

Can someone explain something to me about Jin and his wife Sun.

They were on the plane because he was to deliver a watch to LA right? I'm thinking these watches may indicate that someone's "time is up". If you know what I mean. I don't think they are gifts.

Jin was confronted in the airport bathroom by another of his father-in-law's associates. He told Jin that he knew he was going to try to escape right? So is it that Sun was going to try to get away seperately? It's funny that both of them are running, but neither of them knows the other is.

-Tony

Anyone know anything about "The Turn of the Screw"

The Turn of the Screw (the book that hid the film Orientation) was written by Henry James in 1897 during the spirit world communication craze of the 19th century. Set in a large house, the novella describes attempts to communicate with ghosts. James uses the style of vague, cryptic, and unresponsive dialogue to make the characters seem weird and mysterious. Sounds approriate enough, right?

Everybody here is saying or assuming that not pushing the button will cause the world to "blow up", but in the orientation film it was stated that the "protocol" of entering the numbers and pushing the button came about as a result of "an incident". It would follow that whatever pushing the button prevents is something that has already happened at least once in the past; blowing up the world obviously wasn't it.

I'm with "Jack" on this one. I'm thinking the button thing at least is more like a "Skinner Box" only in reverse. Instead of getting a pellet of food for doing something right, you instead believe you are preventing your death, the end of the world, etc. I believe this is called negative reinforcement.

-Tony

Anyone else notice the model of the "bunker" in the Orientation film? It looks more like a glass bubble. Could the "bunker" have originally been above ground?

Some of the views of the ceiling in “bunker” appears to be some sort of clear material with dirt covering it?

Don't think it was ever above ground - the corridors in there look to be carved out of stone. No way for that to happen if it was above ground.

I think the "dirt' on the tiles is supposed to be mold or something since it's so moist down there.

Plus I've started to wonder if Locke's mother was involved in the experiment at some point. Maybe Locke was ON the island when he was younger but has no memory of it. Remember she said he was "special."



She also said he was immaculately conceived. Could this go with the whole clone thing I've seen mentioned on other boards?

-Tony

I was thinking the same thing.

What supposed "Utopian" society as mentioned in the orientation tape would be armed to the teeth?

-Tony

Well I think the island is part of an experiment to try and figure out HOW to create a utopian society. So the island itself isn't a utopia, but they are studying some aspects of psychology and other subjects that can then be applied to the world at large later.

As the Hanso Foundation (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html) web site points out, one of their research projects is "The Hanso Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute"

The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) states that, Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through social intervention....commonly include birth control, selective breeding, and genetic engineering.

:eek:

~Dan

jux·ta·pose

To place side by side, especially for comparison or contrast.

"Juxtapositional Eugenics" sounds more like survival of the fittest to me.

-Tony

...well, do ya? ;)

So, would you have pushed the button given the circumstances? Knowing what Jack/Locke knew (or didn't know)? Yeah sure, having the skeptical nature that I do, I'd have been very suspect after having watched the "training video" and would have thought the same things Jack expressed. But then again, would there have really been any reason NOT to have pushed it? I mean they could always go ahead and do it to continue the timer while they gathered additional info to make a better informed decision later if they wanted. I mean when you're dealing with unknown consequences maybe it's better to error on the safe side perhaps? The show definitely makes you think doesn't it?

I also loved the Locke line after watching the vid. It even seemed he had a little bit of a mischievous look on his face when he delivered the line too. These guys must just be having a great time doing this show and all the associated stuff surrounding it. Outstanding :D.


ron

Well I think the island is part of an experiment to try and figure out HOW to create a utopian society. So the island itself isn't a utopia, but they are studying some aspects of psychology and other subjects that can then be applied to the world at large later.

The Hanson foundation is involved with weapons, so it could certainly make sense that they are simply there for protection (from what?). It just struck me as odd, all this sort of hippy, utopia type imagery in the orientation, and then a storeroom filled with weaponry.

-Tony

The girl is right? She was talking to Jack in the airport lounge and had seat 42F. That is the very last row on the plane.

If they aren't part of the "tail" section then why would they be working with her, which they apparently are?

-TonyWasn't there some girl who asked Jack if he'd change seats with her when boarding? Are they the same girl?

We don't know for sure yet that the "others" that Jin was running from were from the tail section of the plane. The girl could've worked her way into their confidence to where it looks like they're working together. I just don't think we've been shown enough to rule that out.

Wasn't there some girl who asked Jack if he'd change seats with her when boarding? Are they the same girl?

We don't know for sure yet that the "others" that Jin was running from were from the tail section of the plane. The girl could've worked her way into their confidence to where it looks like they're working together. I just don't think we've been shown enough to rule that out.

That was her! He even buys her a drink in the lounge. She was definitely on the plane (seat 42f).

-Tony

Can someone explain something to me about Jin and his wife Sun.

They were on the plane because he was to deliver a watch to LA right? I'm thinking these watches may indicate that someone's "time is up". If you know what I mean. I don't think they are gifts.

Jin was confronted in the airport bathroom by another of his father-in-law's associates. He told Jin that he knew he was going to try to escape right? So is it that Sun was going to try to get away seperately? It's funny that both of them are running, but neither of them knows the other is.

-Tony

If you go back to last season, you get the impression that Jin was involved in some type of Mafia group. The trip to LA was to "convince" someone, I believe. Sun was trying to escape because she knew something was up w/ her dad and Jin.

If you go back to last season, you get the impression that Jin was involved in some type of Mafia group. The trip to LA was to "convince" someone, I believe. Sun was trying to escape because she knew something was up w/ her dad and Jin.

Agreed! Jin does his father-in-law's dirty work. But the man in the bathroom implies Jin may be trying to escape as well and warns against it.

-Tony

I can't imagine many survivors coming out of the tail section of the plane if it went in the water. Maybe Anna Lucia was the only one.We know there were at least 4 or 5 that we've seen.How do we "know" they were from the plane? I think some assumptions would have to be made. So far they haven't said they were from the plane and Anna Lucia didn't say they were and when Jin was running to Mike and Sawyer he called them the "others". Although you're probably right, I think there's enough room for doubt.

You guys see this? :eek:

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/ref_video.gif

It looks like there is some video of some sort hidden...or will be at some later time.

-Tony

Is it just me or is Jack getting a bit whiny...He seems to be getting pouty and over emotional. His reaction to Desmond seems a bit over stressed. Probably it will be explained through further flashbacks. It looked like the picture of Desmond he glanced at was with his wife, which didn't trigger a flashback, but in the last confrontation, there seemed an a lot left unsaid.

I think meeting up with Desmond was one coincidence too many for our Man of Science, and he is now deeply shaken. Especially after Locke made the comment that Desmond knowing him "would be impossible"...

The plot thickens.

When this series ends, after 108 or so episodes, we're going to have 108 questions answered, and be left with 10,800 unanswered questions... :D

~Dan

You guys see this?

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/ref_video.gif

It looks like there is some video of some sort hidden.

-Tony
Looks like the site is under construction. Last updated yesterday.

That was her! He even buys her a drink in the lounge. She was definitely on the plane (seat 42f).

-Tony

A drink sinking ice (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5650668&highlight=ice+glass+drink#post5650668) no less!

Looks like the site is under construction. Last updated yesterday.
You can only view the site remotely.. :D

Looks like the site is under construction. Last updated yesterday.

Is it me or does the background image on the Hanson Foundation site look like a baby in the womb? Think of the two dark spots as eyes.

-tony

Regarding remote viewing there is an off-beat movie based on the theory called Suspect Zero, pretty good movie, it also talks about remote viewing in the special features section.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0324127/
Suspect Zero (2004)

Another insignificant thing about the screen is that the cursor slowly reveals every character pixel by pixel instead of printing a character and advancing to the next column like, well, every other computer and terminal I've ever seen. Maybe that was the prop guy's idea to make the computer (or whatever it's talking to) look really slow and primitive.I don't think Apples did this, but some dumb terminals did.Yeah, the should have just made Lost a 2-hour mini-series and been done with it. :rolleyes:Don't misunderstand. I'm not complaining about the slow reveal. But it seems like we've spent a lot of time with almost no reveal. We didn't really get anything new in Michael's back story, and the only new thing in Locke's was Helen. The film didn't tell us anything we hadn't already guessed. It just seemed like a lot of screen time with no meaningful information. On top of that, the promo seems to introduce a bunch if infighting and back stabbing among the survivors, which will further derail the path and reveal no answers while it works itself out. It just seemed to foreshadow more tangents and detours.

Sorry. Perhaps my pessimism is showing.

Xesdeeni

Just had a thought, the man and woman found in the cave (early in season 1)...could they be the graduate-student founders of the Dharma Initiative?

~Dan

I'd have to agree, especially regarding jack's behavior... So much for Man of Science right?

I think it's very much in keeping with his character. The mere presence of Desmond means there's more going on than he can bring himself to admit at this point -- either about his past or about why he's on the island. His "leap of faith" with the button-pressing shows that he is at least willing to go that far.

To me, this show is just as much, if not more, about the characters' journeys than it is about The Mystery or The Secrets or OMGWTF polar bear! "Lost" doesn't just refer to the literal fact of people being stranded. It refers to each of the major characters, too. Their individual journeys as they manifest in the crucible of their environment is what's really interesting to me.

Random thoughts...

540 days: 540 x 24 x 60 / 108 = 7200 times (minimum). With two people 3600 (minimum).

The location of the "Execute" button... I guess they only need one shift key.

The counter... The second part did not start, I believe, until the alarm went off (or was it one minute?). I thought that was perculiar, but that does add to the sense of urgency.

I don't know what would happen if the code is not entered. Maybe every 108 minutes some EM energy has to be released to keep the "incident" from happening. Maybe, people got "sick" whenever the code was not entered for some reasons. Or really nothing would happen. But Skinner's research requires a "reward" or a feedback. So, I assume something would happen to make the watchman enter the code every time.

I initially thought there were 6 Hanso Foundation projects and since one of them is related to EM, I thought the other 5 stations would correspond to those. But there are actually 7 active projects.

Swan... Since people noticed that the "shark" had a slightly different DHARMA symbol, we can assume that it is from a different "station". Maybe under the water (and that's where the cable is going)?

Anna Lucia... The whole story she told to Sawyer/Mike(/Jin assuming he CAN speak perfect English) could be all lies (that is, the part about the head getting hit and waking up in the water). But it might not. :p

Jack... I think he got emotional because his faith is getting tested. And I am sure that has something to do with his ex-wife and with him being "not married" any more.

My wife got annoyed when I started to pause the TiVo to look at the blackboard and the book titles. :p She thinks I am too nerdy (which I am, btw).

Hong.

Having read most of the responses in this forum, it's really amazing how the power of suggestion contained in the Orientation film influenced all but one of us. In the film the lab coated director, Dr. Marvin Kandall, instructs, "It is highly recommended that you work in alternate shifts..." He doesn't say this is mandatory, but suggests it's the best way to stay alert. What? Alternating shifts of 108 minutes are little different from working solo, since in both cases you only rest for 108 minutes. Only one person in this forum suggested 8 hour shifts as a better duty cycle. Each person could actually rest, of course. Bravo to Dr. B.F. Skinner, RIP. He would be proud to know that his operant conditioning theory works even in the threads of the AVS Forum

Two things to think about:

The training video seemed to have some parts cut from it. What were the? Why were they removed, and by whom?

Is there any proof that Sawyer, Michael and Jin are back on the SAME island as they orginally left? Seems reasonable that they are, but...

Chad

The training FILM seems to jump from missing sprocket holes and maybe needed to be spliced if broken. Not necessarily edited......

Did anyone else think that the training film had some subliminal messages spliced in, hence the jumpiness of it at times?

I thought that the training film was doing more training than just what we saw!

The location of the "Execute" button... I guess they only need one shift key.
If your code is all numerals (4 8 15 16 23 42), you don't need any shift keys... ;)


The counter... The second part did not start, I believe, until the alarm went off (or was it one minute?).
The seconds started counting-down at the 4 minute mark, when the alarm starts sounding.


I thought that was perculiar, but that does add to the sense of urgency.
In basketball, the game clock displays tenths of a second, but only during the last minute of each half...


Anna Lucia... The whole story she told to Sawyer/Mike(/Jin assuming he CAN speak perfect English) could be all lies (that is, the part about the head getting hit and waking up in the water). But it might not. :p
I think it's a safe assumption that her story was "embellished" in an effort to get information out of the boys...


Jack... I think he got emotional because his faith is getting tested. And I am sure that has something to do with his ex-wife and with him being "not married" any more.
Yes, Jack tends to get emotional in situations where things are beyond his control...


My wife got annoyed when I started to pause the TiVo to look at the blackboard and the book titles. :p She thinks I am too nerdy (which I am, btw).
Just wait until she catches you watching the entire show in slow motion! :D

~Dan

The training FILM seems to jump from missing sprocket holes and maybe needed to be spliced if broken. Not necessarily edited......

Or perhaps it actually was made in fragmented style like that deliberately, so that the viewer would think the film was damaged.

I like the subliminal messages theory. Anyone up for watching the training film frame-by-frame?

Jack... I think he got emotional because his faith is getting tested. And I am sure that has something to do with his ex-wife and with him being "not married" any more.

My wife got annoyed when I started to pause the TiVo to look at the blackboard and the book titles. :p She thinks I am too nerdy (which I am, btw).

Hong.

I'm getting a vibe that she is dead. He had a very emotional response to Desmond bringing her up.

Edit:
Jack's wife that is.

I'm getting a vibe that she is dead.

that's what I think too. Everytime she is mentioned, he gets all teary-eyed.

Having read most of the responses in this forum, it's really amazing how the power of suggestion contained in the Orientation film influenced all but one of us. In the film the lab coated director, Dr. Marvin Kandall, instructs, "It is highly recommended that you work in alternate shifts..." He doesn't say this is mandatory, but suggests it's the best way to stay alert. What? Alternating shifts of 108 minutes are little different from working solo, since in both cases you only rest for 108 minutes. Only one person in this forum suggested 8 hour shifts as a better duty cycle. Each person could actually rest, of course. Bravo to Dr. B.F. Skinner, RIP. He would be proud to know that his operant conditioning theory works even in the threads of the AVS Forum

I think his meaning was that they each take 12 hour shifts (or as evenly in a day as they could), so one person would be well rested at all times.

A shift as in 7-7 or 12-12, not 108 minute shifts.

I

I think meeting up with Desmond was one coincidence too many for our Man of Science, and he is now deeply shaken. Especially after Locke made the comment that Desmond knowing him "would be impossible"...I'm sure Locke enjoyed that opportunity for a sarcastic "jab" at Jack.

Desmond's roomate was named "Kelvin", not Calvin. Closed captioning works wonders.

Well, then, I guess that blows my last theory. I suppose now that it's either a reference to Lord Kelvin, the physicist and engineer, or possibly to the book and movie(s) Solaris, which are (sort-of) about people reappearing from the dead.

that's what I think too. Everytime she is mentioned, he gets all teary-eyed.


Was the person that flew by the window when Hurley was talking to his finacial advisor a man or woman? Maybe that was Jack's wife... :p

The training FILM seems to jump from missing sprocket holes and maybe needed to be spliced if broken. Not necessarily edited......Not necessarily, but probably. Notice how the film was conveniently intact during the apparently essential segments?

I believe that somewhere down the line (perhaps toward the wrap-up in season 4 or 5 (or 6)) we'll find that the missing parts of the film are more significant than the intact portion.

The clock mystery was "revealed". It starts at 108, and the seconds don't start until the 4 minute timer goes off.

http://humpys.net/images/theothers.jpg

Whatcha think?

Having read most of the responses in this forum, it's really amazing how the power of suggestion contained in the Orientation film influenced all but one of us. In the film the lab coated director, Dr. Marvin Kandall, instructs, "It is highly recommended that you work in alternate shifts..." He doesn't say this is mandatory, but suggests it's the best way to stay alert. What? Alternating shifts of 108 minutes are little different from working solo, since in both cases you only rest for 108 minutes. Only one person in this forum suggested 8 hour shifts as a better duty cycle. Each person could actually rest, of course. Bravo to Dr. B.F. Skinner, RIP. He would be proud to know that his operant conditioning theory works even in the threads of the AVS Forum

I think you're seeing what you want to see (maybe it's you that was influenced by the film ;) )

I haven't seen anyone suggest that 108 minute shifts would make more sense than normal shifts. That would be kind of stupid with 2 people.

I once was in an AT&T management training workshop where, at the beginning, we were given an envelop and told "not to open it". We then had a series of management decision exercises to do. The only way to complete the final task was to have information we didn't have (which was contained in the envelop).

Nobody in the group suggested opening the envelop to see what was in it because some "authority figure" (the facilitator) said not to. The point of the exercise was to see how far we would go to solve a problem, up to and including violating a "rule"---"Don't open the envelop".

I'm with the group suggesting nothing will happen if the numbers aren't entered in time and Execute isn't pushed.

I don't think Apples did this, but some dumb terminals did.
Which ones? We have some of the dumbest in history around here including a classic DEC VT52.

http://humpys.net/images/theothers.jpg

Whatcha think?
Hard to tell with the woman, but the 2 bearded guys are not the same person.

I know that I may lock the new people up until I found out more about them, but I certainly wouldn't send anyone in the pit with them. Why didn't they just question them from outside the pit?
Or check them for weapons or tools before throwing them in? Dammit, Desmond made the same mistake last week!

So why didn't Sayid- the more logical one- just say lets push the button 1 more time & then you can all argue about it for another 108 minutes on whether we do it again... :D

Which ones? We have some of the dumbest in history around here including a classic DEC VT52.There's no way I remember which ones they were, but I saw one do this many years ago (circa 1982). They kind of slid over like the were shown. I even thought it was odd then! That's why it stuck with me.

Xesdeeni

So why didn't Sayid- the more logical one- just say lets push the button 1 more time & then you can all argue about it for another 108 minutes on whether we do it again... :D

i think the issue Jack and Locke were facing was:

Once you start pushing the button...how can you stop? What if no further information comes along? Do you just keep on going? Or find out RIGHT NOW what happens when the button doesn't get pushed.

Or check them for weapons or tools before throwing them in? Dammit, Desmond made the same mistake last week!

Desmond doesn't seem to be a military trained person. I also doubt he was thinking very clearly. He had been down there alone for how long???and all the sudden the hatch that said quarantine gets blown open and hes got three people there. No one is sick, etc. He's tired (100minutes of sleep at a time max) and confused.

The others threw her in the pit before checking them for weapons. They must have realized their mistake, threw her in. She gained their trust by telling them that she was being held also. Then she made her move. Its possible that she was in jeopardy and was doing this to earn back their trust?

Who knows????

They got 40 people that can take a shift. That's 20 teams of 2. Let them work a 12 hour shift. That's 3 shifts a month per person. If they get one "bunker meal" per shift - you'd have 100% participation.

I'd have definitely hit the button - at least until I had a chance to thoroughly investigate the bunker and any official materials present. Even if you don't believe you are "saving the world" it wouldn't be too hard to accept the possibility that the bunker would be irrevocably shut down if it was deemed to be abandoned (by not entering the sequence). This is the only hope of contacting the outside world at this point - why take a chance.

Score 1 for Locke.

The others threw her in the pit before checking them for weapons. They must have realized their mistake, threw her in. She gained their trust by telling them that she was being held also. Then she made her move. Its possible that she was in jeopardy and was doing this to earn back their trust?

Who knows????

I do. I'll bet their 55 gallon drum of olives that there were no "Others" present in or near the pit.

The clock mystery was "revealed". It starts at 108, and the seconds don't start until the 4 minute timer goes off.

Hah! Beat you by 96 posts! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6311027&&#post6311027)

(With all the theories about Lost that I've gotten wrong, I'll take any small victory I can get! :D )

~Dan

They got 40 people that can take a shift. That's 20 teams of 2. Let them work a 12 hour shift. That's 3 shifts a month per person. If they get one "bunker meal" per shift - you'd have 100% participation.
Hurley's going to be very upset with 40-some-odd people knowing and using The Numbers...


I'd have definitely hit the button - at least until I had a chance to thoroughly investigate the bunker and any official materials present. Even if you don't believe you are "saving the world" it wouldn't be too hard to accept the possibility that the bunker would be irrevocably shut down if it was deemed to be abandoned (by not entering the sequence). This is the only hope of contacting the outside world at this point - why take a chance.
Exactly...you can always not push the button later...

~Dan

As much mystery and coincidence as there was surrounding the numbers, the bunker completely explains everything except the Aussie and Hurley's bad luck. Anyone with exposure to the number sequence can be directly tied back to the island.

The others threw her in the pit before checking them for weapons. They must have realized their mistake, threw her in. She gained their trust by telling them that she was being held also. Then she made her move. Its possible that she was in jeopardy and was doing this to earn back their trust?

Who knows????I do. I'll bet their 55 gallon drum of olives that there were no "Others" present in or near the pit.Okay, what am I missing? Do you know something that they haven't shown us yet? How can you possibly know there were no "others" near the pit? Do you know where they were?

I agree with pressing the button. Even though I as a viewer want to know what happens when it's not pressed on time, there really wasn't any compelling reason for those in the bunker not to - yet.

Optivity was talking about Rose from the front of the plane (although I think AAA would be much to young for her), not Anna Lucia (Michelle Rodriguez)Haven't you seen that movie, "How Rose got her groove back"? :). I think next week will shed light on the origins of the "captors" group.


ron

Hard to tell with the woman, but the 2 bearded guys are not the same person.


How do you know for sure? Think Sadaam Hussein... he had straight black hair and mustache forever, but old age and hiding in bunkers (or trapped on an island) will turn that black hair gray.

I think those two could very well be the 2 original students. Where else would they find a working boat with fuel, without knowing where these various "stations" are.

Great find!

The others threw her in the pit before checking them for weapons. They must have realized their mistake, threw her in. She gained their trust by telling them that she was being held also. Then she made her move. Its possible that she was in jeopardy and was doing this to earn back their trust?

Who knows????


I got the feeling she was just there for info, a trusted member of the group. Why would you send someone you DIDN'T trust in there to get vital information?

Okay, what am I missing? Do you know something that they haven't shown us yet? How can you possibly know there were no "others" near the pit? Do you know where they were?

I agree with pressing the button. Even though I as a viewer want to know what happens when it's not pressed on time, there really wasn't any compelling reason for those in the bunker not to - yet.

I'm with Cpanther on this one, I think we'll find this group is indeed made up of tail section survivors. Although it's entirely possible someone is pulling an Ethan and has planted themselves in the group posing as a survivor.

I have to chime in here. It's been 3 weeks, and they have told us very little, and it's getting a bit frustrating. The first 2 episodes were slow, and this week was better, but last season seemed to have a bit faster pace (not that I'm going to stop watching).

Another point, why wouldn't the 'others' trust people from the plane crash. The girl Anna, she was on the plane, and even talked to Jack in the bar before he boarded the flight. I'm hoping Sawyer, Jin and Mike get out and the 'others' shed some light on things.

What ever happened to the moster roaming the jungle eating people BTW?

Like Keenan mentioned, there's also the possibilty of a survivor from the Nigerian plane - and AAA would fit the bill. But to address tluxon, they made it very clear, crystal clear, from their actions and dialogue that they were not the Others.

If entering the code really does something, the computer should be connected to some device. Computers of that vintage probably didn't have any kind of communications ability unless it was hard-wired to some device via a serial port. Just follow the physical connections.

It's at least connected to that stupid countdown display. But beyond that?

So the conspiracy theory goes: the Dharma Project is still going on.

They arranged for one group of pre-selected subjects to sit in the back of the plane and another group in the middle. They then used their mysterious destructo ray gun to slice the plane up in mid-flight and deposit the survivors in pre-determined locations on the island.

When asked why, the scientists replied: "Because we can."

For some reason it annoys me that Jack felt he had to push the button in spite of such a lack of information.

- Tom

...But to address tluxon, they made it very clear, crystal clear, from their actions and dialogue that they were not the Others.This is where I think I'm missing something. Based on what little we learned about the Others in season 1, I agree with you in that I wouldn't have expected them to act and speak as Mike, Sawyer, and Jin's captors did, but I'm not yet convinced of how they would've acted differently. I'm glad it's resolved for you, but to me there's still some uncertainty. I don't mind. :D

If entering the code really does something, the computer should be connected to some device. Computers of that vintage probably didn't have any kind of communications ability unless it was hard-wired to some device via a serial port. Just follow the physical connections.

It's at least connected to that stupid countdown display. But beyond that?

Actually, computers of that vintage (including that very computer) had modems, could get on the internet (yes, the internet...just because there was no "world wide web" doesn't mean there was no interenet), and could connect to other devices through several means. Serial port being one. I can hook my Apple II up to my PC via null modem cable and communicate all day long...

This is where I think I'm missing something. Based on what little we learned about the Others in season 1, I agree with you in that I wouldn't have expected them to act and speak as Mike, Sawyer, and Jin's captors did, but I'm not yet convinced of how they would've acted differently. I'm glad it's resolved for you, but to me there's still some uncertainty. I don't mind. :D


The Others would have simply finished what they started out on the boat. Kill them and move on.

I have to chime in here. It's been 3 weeks, and they have told us very little, and it's getting a bit frustrating. The first 2 episodes were slow, and this week was better, but last season seemed to have a bit faster pace (not that I'm going to stop watching).

Another point, why wouldn't the 'others' trust people from the plane crash. The girl Anna, she was on the plane, and even talked to Jack in the bar before he boarded the flight. I'm hoping Sawyer, Jin and Mike get out and the 'others' shed some light on things.

What ever happened to the moster roaming the jungle eating people BTW?

Re-watch all of Season 1, and you'll notice how very little they told us on a week to week basis. In fact, the first 3 episodes of season 2 have told us more than 5 or 6 episodes in season 1. If anything, this season is FASTER paced in regards to showing us stuff...

For some reason it annoys me that Jack felt he had to push the button in spite of such a lack of information.

- TomAnd I'm puzzled as to why Locke wouldn't have gone ahead and pressed it once it became more of a pressing emergency in his mind. He's gone against Jack and others on enough other occasions that it seemed inconsistent that he deferred to Jack on this. I guess he figured whatever the consequences might be would be worth it if that's what it took to push Jack to the very precipice of exercising faith.

The Others would have simply finished what they started out on the boat. Kill them and move on.You're probably right, but there's the possibility that there are Others that were on the boat and another faction of Others that did the beach capture. Maybe for whatever reason they're not on the same page or exercise their hostilities in the same manner.

I'm leaning toward the captors being 815 tail section survivors, but my mind is still accepting of other possibilities.

Actually, computers of that vintage (including that very computer) had modems, could get on the internet (yes, the internet...just because there was no "world wide web" doesn't mean there was no interenet), and could connect to other devices through several means. Serial port being one. I can hook my Apple II up to my PC via null modem cable and communicate all day long...

In that case, have Sayid program the computer to send an SOS.

They were going to jury-rig some POS transceiver to try to signal a plane or ship which just happen to be nearby. So using a computer which is online should be a piece of cake comparatively speaking. Where does the comm cable go, into the same power cable going out into the ocean?


Maybe there's a hidden camera where the researchers conducting the experiment watch the subjects in the bunker and give stimuli according to what the subjects do, such as reset that counter.

Much more backstory stuff in season 1 trying to develop the characters so we would have an interest in them. Still much more to be revealed, but I'd still like a better balance between moving the story forward and backstories. So far the backstories we've seen in season 2 have not been very informative.

Looks like now that they have access to so many guns, a bunker, food and water, they shouldn't have to worry about "the others" anymore.

Something tells me Jack is going to have to treat a few gunshot wounds, and not just Sawyer's, this season.

In that case, have Sayid program the computer to send an SOS.




They were warned not to use the computer for other means. As big a risk as not entering the code.

They were warned not to use the computer for other means. As big a risk as not entering the code.They've got power, spare parts, and a soldering iron. I would think someone (Sayid?) would be able to parlay that into a communication device. Maybe hit one of the numerous satellites up there with just the right frequency, ultimately leading a troubleshooter to the island. But that can't happen for several seasons, can it? Unless the troubleshooter becomes another "guest", of course.

FYI-Found this on another site:

The Dharma Initiative: "Welcome, I'm Dr. Marvin Candle and this is the orientation film for Station 3 of the Dharma Initiative. In a moment, you'll be given a simple set of instructions for how you and your partner will fulfill the responsibilities associated with this station.

But first, a little history. The Dharma Initiative was created in 1970 and is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen DeGroot - two doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan. Following in the footsteps of visionaries such as B.F. Skinner... imagined a large-scale communal research compound, where scientists and free thinkers from around the globe persue research in meterology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism and utopian social... reclusive Danish industrialist and munitions magnate Alvar Hanso, who financial backing made their dream of a multipurpose social science research facility a reality.

You and your partner are currently located in Station 3 or the Swan and will be for the next 540 days. Now Station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island. Not long after the experiments began, however, there was an incident. And since that time, the following protocol has been observed.

Every 108 minutes, the button must be pushed. From the moment the alarm sounds, you will have 4 minutes to enter the code into the microcomputer processor... induction into the program. When the alarm sounds, either you or your partner must input the code. It is highly recommended that your and your partner take alternating shifts. In this manner, you will both stay as fresh and alert... utmost importance, that when the alarm sounds, the code be entered correctly and in a timely fashion. Now do not attempt to use the computer for anyth...

Congratulations, until your replacements arrive, the future of the project is in your hands. On behalf of the DeGroots, Alvar Hanso, and all of us at the Dharma Initiative, Thank You, Namaste, and Good Luck."

© The Hanso Foundation, 1980. All Rights Reserved.

Back to someone's question about Jin leaving. Jin was leaving "the life" during last season. Before the fateful flight he went to see his father who was a fisherman. He told his father about Sun's dad and the stuff he was doing and about taking the watch to LA, etc etc. He said he was not worthy of his father's love and stuff like that and then his dad said something like "so take the watch and deliver it to the man in LA and let that be the last thing you do for this man."

So, this was why Jin smiled at Sun in the airport and showed her that flower. This is why at the last second she didn't leave him at the airport. He was planning on starting a new life after LA, maybe even staying in the US and making things right with Sun...

Both of them were planning on running away and knew nothing of each other's plans. Sun was planning to leave him and he was planning on the two of them escaping her father. When he heard her speak English he probably realized what she was planning which is why he was so angry.

...well, do ya? ;)

So, would you have pushed the button given the circumstances? Knowing what Jack/Locke knew (or didn't know)? Yeah sure, having the skeptical nature that I do, I'd have been very suspect after having watched the "training video" and would have thought the same things Jack expressed. But then again, would there have really been any reason NOT to have pushed it? I mean they could always go ahead and do it to continue the timer while they gathered additional info to make a better informed decision later if they wanted. I mean when you're dealing with unknown consequences maybe it's better to error on the safe side perhaps? The show definitely makes you think doesn't it?

I also loved the Locke line after watching the vid. It even seemed he had a little bit of a mischievous look on his face when he delivered the line too. These guys must just be having a great time doing this show and all the associated stuff surrounding it. Outstanding :D.


ron

i would've. it's actually STUPID not to. no it's highly unlikely the world would end or the island would blow up, but there is a small chance the computer does serve some function. until you figure out what the station is about -- do a lot more exploration -- the best course of action is to maintain the status quo. jack was being an ass, not a rational skeptic.

Anyone find it odd that even after Desmond figured out where he knew Jack from that he still ran? Where is he running to?

I don't have any answers but it bothered me that even the all accepting and faithful Desmond wouldn't say WTF and want to know more about Jack and how they BOTH ended up on the island.

He has to be in on "it."

Anyone find it odd that even after Desmond figured out where he knew Jack from that he still ran? Where is he running to?

I don't have any answers but it bothered me that even the all accepting and faithful Desmond wouldn't say WTF and want to know more about Jack and how they BOTH ended up on the island.

He has to be in on "it."

I think it's more likely he's gone a little on the insane side after years of being shanghaid into punching the stinking button. He sees his chance to get out from under it, and he's taking it. Not rational, I know, but understandable.


Edit:

What I find more interesting about Desmond at this point is his immediate rush to get weapons and monitor the hatch entrance. Has the bunker been attacked before? Why the arsenal? Why so quick to think of defense unless he's had trouble before?

Desmond's been all by himself entering numbers in a bunker for a little too long... ;)

Anyone find it odd that even after Desmond figured out where he knew Jack from that he still ran? Where is he running to?

I don't have any answers but it bothered me that even the all accepting and faithful Desmond wouldn't say WTF and want to know more about Jack and how they BOTH ended up on the island.

He has to be in on "it."

He told them where he was going: as far away as possible. He believes something very bad will happen to the bunker, so he's getting as far away as he can...as fast as he can.

He told them where he was going: as far away as possible. He believes something very bad will happen to the bunker, so he's getting as far away as he can...as fast as he can.

I heard that but he knows he's on an island and if he actually believes that bad things will happen if the button is not hit you would think that he would know that running probably will not get him far enough away.

Most likely he is in on it or just insanely happy not to be in the bunker pressing buttons.

i would've. it's actually STUPID not to. no it's highly unlikely the world would end or the island would blow up, but there is a small chance the computer does serve some function. until you figure out what the station is about -- do a lot more exploration -- the best course of action is to maintain the status quo. jack was being an ass, not a rational skeptic.
I agree. While Sayid and Jack and John take turns entering the code (even if it does nothing) they have ton of investigation to do now. They should be able to get some idea of what the thing is if anything. They have several rooms full of stuff that came from somewhere (note the picture Jack glanced at before leaving). A lot of power is being generated somewhere somehow and it should be a matter of tracing the wires. There's no reason to get all Hurley and risk blowing the place up.

SNIP.....
Edit:

What I find more interesting about Desmond at this point is his immediate rush to get weapons and monitor the hatch entrance. Has the bunker been attacked before? Why the arsenal? Why so quick to think of defense unless he's had trouble before?

VERY NICE!!! I wondered what the weapons were for when he intially armed himself while Kate was going into the bunker. You question has not been answered and it is a good one. It is also interesting that he knows that people on the island were "sick." Desmond had many more answers to the island's mysteries than he gave to Jack and Co.

Could be Desmond repaired his boat a long time ago and couldn't leave because of the entering the numbers thing. He high-tailed it to his boat as quickly as possible in case something did happen. Even if nothing happened, he most likely won't be coming back, unless the island forces him back somehow. It's Jack's problem now.

just insanely happy not to be in the bunker pressing buttons.Makes good sense, doesn't it?

I wonder if Jack still believes that nothing would happen if the numbers aren't entered, but decided to keep it going as a way to keep Locke occupied and therefore harmless. I don't think Jack will be participating in any shift changes, although Hurley could be easily convinced.

In that case, have Sayid program the computer to send an SOS.

They were going to jury-rig some POS transceiver to try to signal a plane or ship which just happen to be nearby. So using a computer which is online should be a piece of cake comparatively speaking. Where does the comm cable go, into the same power cable going out into the ocean?



Recall as well, that the film warned them not to use the computer for anything else.

-Tony

Seems kinda odd to me that there were a couple other boats somewhere around the perimeter of the island this whole time and 40 mid-section survivors could be stranded for over 40 days without coming across any evidence of them. Sure most of them were scared, but maybe they should've had a better look before going to all the trouble of building the raft and setting sail for who knows where.

How do you know for sure? Think Sadaam Hussein... he had straight black hair and mustache forever, but old age and hiding in bunkers (or trapped on an island) will turn that black hair gray.

I think those two could very well be the 2 original students. Where else would they find a working boat with fuel, without knowing where these various "stations" are.

Great find!
Unless the guy had plastic surgery I don't see how it could be the same person. The guy on the boat has a hooked nose and high cheekbones, the guy in the video has neither. Of course anything's possible with this show.

i would've. it's actually STUPID not to. no it's highly unlikely the world would end or the island would blow up, but there is a small chance the computer does serve some function. until you figure out what the station is about -- do a lot more exploration -- the best course of action is to maintain the status quo. jack was being an ass, not a rational skeptic.
I agree, there is so much that they don't know already, why introduce a new unknown situation(not pressing the button), rational thought would say ask questions first and shoot later... :D

I wonder if Jack still believes that nothing would happen if the numbers aren't entered, but decided to keep it going as a way to keep Locke occupied and therefore harmless. I don't think Jack will be participating in any shift changes, although Hurley could be easily convinced.

I don't think Hurley wants the code entered....remember he thinks the numbers are bad and when Locke was going to push the button with the wrong numbers, he wanted Locke to do it and did not correct him.

You're probably right, but there's the possibility that there are Others that were on the boat and another faction of Others that did the beach capture. Maybe for whatever reason they're not on the same page or exercise their hostilities in the same manner.So, you're saying there are the Others, and the other Others, eh? Interesting theory.....

OK, so the survivors now have power, a nice place to sleep and keep warm, plenty of food, good music :) , a shower, exercise equipment, etc. This can't keep up or it will get pretty boring watching Our Gang living the high life.

Anyone want to guess what is going to happen to kick them out of the hatch? Perhaps something bad *does* happen when the numbers aren't entered...

Orientation, 3 of 5, copyright 1980. Brother.

Paul

Sorry if mentioned already,

But it does seem odd that the project engineers didn't code a script to automate this required sequence input every 108 minutes. If that was something they could have done with that vintage computer, the fact that they designed the system to require human interaction instead, must have some significance.

People have been mentioning Locke's "father" as the one with his kidney. I just want to get clarification - this isn't his biological father - it is just a guy who needed a kidney and suckered Locke into thinking he was indeed his father, right?

This show was a real letdown for me.

Things that spoiled it were:

1. The candy bar that Kate ate had an expiration date in 2004. How did it get there if everything else is supposed to be from the 70's?


3. There are bar codes on the medicine Desmond was injecting. No bar codes available in the 70's.

4. How many days could you spend pushing a button every 108 minutes? The lack of sleep and the lack of a good reason for pushing it would make it impossible for me to do it more than a few days or weeks. No way I could last 3 years.


I really thought this show was unique and they paid attention to so many of these details. Now I know this is not the case.

They've lost me. I'll watch it sure, but I have to lower my viewing standards for this show.

1. If it had been a Twinkie would that have made it more believeable?


3. Actually On June 26, 1974, the first product with a bar code was scanned at a check-out counter. (http://www.adams1.com/pub/russadam/history.html)

4. That is why Desmond was in the bunker and not you.

People have been mentioning Locke's "father" as the one with his kidney. I just want to get clarification - this isn't his biological father - it is just a guy who needed a kidney and suckered Locke into thinking he was indeed his father, right?

No, pretty sure it's his biological father.