got some home depot rope lights installed earlier .. i'll post some pics later .. thanks for all the help guys!

If you have read this thread or listen to GeorgeAB, while rope lighting may work as accent lighting they are poor for bias lighting. They are the wrong colour with a really bad CRI.

Hey everyone -

hope this ok to post here. i just purchased and received the panel-lite system from GeorgeAB, it's great, but i quickly realized that the dual lights are too bright for my setup with 3ft of space between the tv and the wall. One does the job perfectly. If anyone is interested in the 2nd light, please send me a PM.


EDIT- SOLD

Usually grow lamps are anything but 6500K. For example with GE they are 3100K, 4000K, 5000K with a high CRI and 9325K & 10000K with a really low CRI.

The Sun Blaze strip light that I looked at claimed to be 6500K .

http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/sun-blaze-24w-2ft-t5-fluorescent-strip-light-p-2070.html

Now what it really measures out as is another matter.

Shris3G,

Wouldn't it make a tender, romantic gift for Valentine's Day?

Now what it really measures out as is another matter.
They offer no CRI rating.

They offer no CRI rating.

George, I checked with the Sunlight Supply . They told me that the CRI is 85 for the 2ft 6500K Sun Blaze Strip light. This isn't too bad for my non critical use

I've looked through this thread and I can't really find any info on anyone using the Ideal-lume setup with a fixed mount. I have my 50" plasma mounted this way and there's not much room from the back of the tv to the wall (about 1.5"). I have no doubt I can get the lights installed, but will they be too close to the wall to give a nice, diffused look with good dispersion?

Hey everyone -

hope this ok to post here. i just purchased and received the panel-lite system from GeorgeAB, it's great, but i quickly realized that the dual lights are too bright for my setup with 3ft of space between the tv and the wall. One does the job perfectly. If anyone is interested in the 2nd light, please send me a PM.


Shris3G,

Wouldn't it make a tender, romantic gift for Valentine's Day?

George;
Wouldn't the right thing to do is to offer him to return the extra light for a refund? ;)
After all he did just purchased and received it.

Some people have little sense of humor. We accommodate special circumstances for our customers regularly. However, he would have to pay return freight, insured, and be responsible for its condition upon arrival. He would also need to contact my company directly, rather than conducting business on this forum. Most of our customers in his position have rather found a use for it on another TV or given it as a gift.

i told the girlfriend that she might be getting "something special" come this thursday ... i doubt she'll find it as humorous as i will though :)

Seriously though i didn't expect or want a refund, had i asked in advance before ordering you probably could have told me i'd only need 1, and i'd probably have went and ordered the set anyway just because i'd want to be sure. It's not a big deal, if someone wants it that's great, if not i'll just hang on to it until i find another use, or need a replacement bulb, or whatever.

EDIT - Extra light is SOLD

Hey folks!

I just got back from Lowes and purchased myself some rope lighting and stick-on clips to attach some Bias lighting to the back of my 5080. (I gotta go back and exchange my 6' for 12'...but that's beside the point)

I was thinking, i dont want to have to get up and plug in my BIAS lighting every time I want to use it, so i was looking for a remote power switch type thingie. I actually found one at Lowes for $17, but it's RF. I can plug my Rope light into it's one port, and it comes w/ a little RF Remote i'm thinking about sticking underneath my coffe table for a slick effect.

I was wondering, is there something like this that is IR instead of RF? My reason would be so that I could use my Harmony One IR Remote and program it to turn it on/off that way. Can that even be done, or am i using the best solution?

Here's the thing I got..pretty neat I thought...(sorry, they use frames so i can't link direct)

www.amertac.com

Go to the "Lighting Controls & Dimmers" Tab on the top

Then on the left, select the "Wireless RF Controls".

and it's the RFK106 Key Fob Transmitter w/ Plug-In Receiver




PS - i just read another thread about controlling bias lighting w/ the harmony 880. THeir solution was an X10 outlet w/ an IR 534... not sure I want to do that..

phorts,

What's the color temperature of your rope light? How are you going to adjust it to match the SMPTE recommended level?

I’ve finally made it through this thread from beginning to end, and I’d like to thank all the posters who contributed positively to it, especially Alan. I’m absolutely convinced that I’ll be buying a D65 bias light in the near future. There are just too many benefits not to.

I do have a couple questions to throw out.

1. When setting up bias light intensity for a plasma display using instrumentation, would you set the intensity to 10 percent (or less) of the windowed maximum brightness or 10 percent (or less) of full field maximum brightness?

2. If calibrating a display using instrumentation, would you change your black level setup to account for the addition of a bias light?

3. If calibrating a display using a visual reference such as Digital Video Essentials, would one have a tendency to set black levels slightly higher if the bias light was on during calibration? I would assume you would want to do this type of calibration with ambient conditions as close to viewing conditions as possible.

4. Do you think a rope light would work as well as the setup with halogens on all 4 corners of the display? (OK, just kidding on that one. No answer needed. )

Thanks very much for all the effort you’ve put in to this thread and the AVS Forum in general.

Larry

phorts,

What's the color temperature of your rope light? How are you going to adjust it to match the SMPTE recommended level?

Well, they don't say as it's just your standard decorative rope light you can get at Lowes. Made by Hampton Bay. They're the Super Bright "Clear" ones...

I highly doubt it's the 6500k standard color temp. I dont know what SMPTE recommended levels are, so i can't comment, but again, i'm sure they're not to that level either.

I see that you are affiliated, or at least are a recommender of the Ideal Lume panel lighting. I do prefer the more fluid appearance of the light produced by the ideal lume (opposed to the interval lighting the rope light makes)....But, i do prefer to spend $10 vs $80+...

Is there a way to measure the rope light temp? Will it be that much of a dramatic viewing difference between the 2?

Ugh, yet another thing to spend hours and hours on researching... it's almost worth just droppin $80 on so i don't have to worry about it any longer. I'm sure this has been discussed and debated a thousand times over but i simply dont have the brain room any more... can you shed some light on the situation...

pun intended...

Ok,

I've done me some learnin.. heh. I'm starting to understand this whole thing.... and I've come to this conclusion...

I'm going to try the Rope Lighting method first to see how I like it. I will be posting pictures. If I dont like it or it's distracting, then i'm out a whole $15.

If I don't like it or am hankerin for the best, I'm going Ideal Lume since it seems to be the best out there, and I beleive in quality (Hence my Pioneer purchase).

I have 2 questions for George.

1. My TV will be on a stand in my new ET center. I will be moving the TV about 1' away from the wall. I THINK the back of the ET Center is dark wood, either that or it opens up to my wall which is cream stecco like material. Would either of these surfaces be distracting?

2. If i decide to go w/ Ideal Lume, I like the 2 piece set that you make, but would prefer to have a 3-piece set. I'm using the attached bottom speaker to my 5080 so the bottom only has about 1.5" of clearance and I dont think it's worth the extra $$ to add a light down there. My question is, do you sell single lights that can be linked to the 2 piece set?

Thank You! ....



Can I buy 3 lights and link them together?



PS - I love my RF Remote thang. I got it at Lowes for $20. It's not X10 or anything and only has one plug, but I think it'll be sufficient. Sure, i dont get to control my bias lighting w/ my IR Remote, but for solution thats $50 cheaper than getting an X10 outlet and IR534 Command Center.... I'll take it. I just plugged it into a lamp in the room...and this thing is mad fun..

I love buttons.

Lofty17,

You're welcome! You're also unusually observant in recognizing that I actually go by my middle name.
1. When setting up bias light intensity for a plasma display using instrumentation, would you set the intensity to 10 percent (or less) of the windowed maximum brightness or 10 percent (or less) of full field maximum brightness?
Set it with a window if you have a spot-reading luminance meter. Otherwise, just use a bias light level test pattern by eye.
2. If calibrating a display using instrumentation, would you change your black level setup to account for the addition of a bias light?

3. If calibrating a display using a visual reference such as Digital Video Essentials, would one have a tendency to set black levels slightly higher if the bias light was on during calibration? I would assume you would want to do this type of calibration with ambient conditions as close to viewing conditions as possible.
Set black level and contrast first for a dark room, then adjust the bias light according to the display's behavior. Black level can be tweaked slightly by eye afterward but it's usually not necessary or only needs very minor elevation.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

phorts,

Your rope light is either the traditional yellowish type (3000K to 4000K) or the newer blueish LED type (8000K to 10000K). From the description you offer of your installation, it will likely only need one Ideal-Lume, not the more expensive dual-light model (certainly not three lights).

It's always challenging to envision a setup that is only described verbally. Your comments sound like you jumped to some conclusions about the proper implementation of bias lighting. It would help you to read a technical paper I wrote about viewing environment principles. The document is titled, 'THE IMPORTANCE OF VIEWING ENVIRONMENT CONDITIONS IN A REFERENCE DISPLAY SYSTEM.' Here's the link: http://cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

Its hard trying to shuffle through all these pages, can someone please suggest a couple different places to get a D65K bias light? Thanks a lot.

Its hard trying to shuffle through all these pages, can someone please suggest a couple different places to get a D65K bias light? Thanks a lot.

Try this. Alan has been very helpful on this thread and has a great product.

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

Try this. Alan has been very helpful on this thread and has a great product.

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

thanks. I noticed the standard comes with 1 unit and the pro comes with 2. Is one unit enough to get desired results? Also, how does the unit mount to the back of the set? I have the pio 5080. Are people using zipties?

Thanks again.

The Ideal-Lume Pro contains one light, you may be referring to the Panelight model, which includes two lights and is intended for wall-mounted flat panel TVs. Is one Standard unit enough? Frequently, but it depends on the specifics of your installation. Attaching the product can be accomplished in a variety of ways. You have told us nothing about your setup, so no clear anaysis of what your needs are can be offered. I recommend that you study the product information more carefully. You know every detail about your setup. Once you understand what the product is and how it works, it should be simple to implement it properly in your specific circumstances.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Thanks for the response George, I went ahead and ordered the Ideal-Lume Pro. I'll share my feedback and pictures once its all said and done.

The Ideal-Lume Pro contains one light, you may be referring to the Panelight model, which includes two lights and is intended for wall-mounted flat panel TVs. Is one Standard unit enough? Frequently, but it depends on the specifics of your installation. Attaching the product can be accomplished in a variety of ways. You have told us nothing about your setup, so no clear anaysis of what your needs are can be offered. I recommend that you study the product information more carefully. You know every detail about your setup. Once you understand what the product is and how it works, it should be simple to implement it properly in your specific circumstances.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


What do you suggest for mounting the lamp to todays flat panels? I have used bias lighting in the past with older TVs but not sure what the mounting options are for the back of say a plasma set.

Ok, did this last week and I got some pics of it now. No real PQ differences that I can tell (and i've been studying this TV obsessively since I got it). However, it does have a nice inviting effect and is a nice light to have on during movie time other than the lamps, which I like as the GF would always want a light on somewhere.... not anymore.

Other than that, it's more or less just a "hey that's really cool!" type thing.

Setup:

- Pioneer 50" Kuro PDP-5080HD
- 12' Super Bright Rope Lighting from Hampton Bay
- Stick on zip-tie mounts and zip ties
- RF Controlled power outlet (plug into existing outlet) w/ rope light plugged in. Now I can control the lights w/ the little remote it comes w/. Would like to have IR but not gunna pay $50 to get the stuff just to do it.. this works fine.


sorry for the horrid pics..


BIAS Off:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3403/biasfaroffii5.jpg


BIAS On:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1139/biasfaronig1.jpg


more pics to come....

What do you suggest for mounting the lamp to todays flat panels?
It depends on your installation. We describe several options in the mounting tips sheet that comes with the product. I recommend suspending the light behind stand mounted panels from two slings made from string or wire. The slings can usually be attached by backing out a couple of screws from the cabinet back, or hooking/looping them through the usual abundant vent holes or slots.

Wall mounted panels are more of a challenge. Velcro can be easiest but some cabinets have a coating on them that can cause the adhesive to give out. Samsungs have been the worst. It seems they use Armor All or some silicone treatment that the included alcohol swabs don't clean off effectively. Gregg Loewen recommends double stick tape but that can be problematic if the light has to be removed for service. Another method can be attaching the light to the wall mount structure some how.

Mounting to the wall isn't best because the illumination doesn't have as good an angle or extra distance to spread out evenly like you get when attaching to the back of the TV's cabinet.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

However, it does have a nice inviting effect and is a nice light to have on during movie time other than the lamps, which I like as the GF would always want a light on somewhere.... not anymore.

Other than that, it's more or less just a "hey that's really cool!" type thing.



Yeah, my wife asks, "Why do you want to watch TV in the dark?" She makes it sound like it's as bad as drinking alone. She says she doesn't like watching tv in the dark.

A $10 piece of rope light has gone a long way to ease that situation.

Perhaps we could re-title this thread: "Really Cool Decorating Tips For Home Theater, Or How To Keep Your Wife Quiet For Cheap.":)

Yeah, my wife asks, "Why do you want to watch TV in the dark?" She makes it sound like it's as bad as drinking alone. She says she doesn't like watching tv in the dark.

A $10 piece of rope light has gone a long way to ease that situation.

Perhaps we could re-title this thread: "Really Cool Decorating Tips For Home Theater, Or How To Keep Your Wife Quiet For Cheap.":)



AHhh, how true it is...how true it is. I'll probably upgrade to the Lumagen bias lighting at some point..but for now, these do the trick.....and i can still watch TV with all the (other) lights off :D

There ya go... My speakers block more light than I would like, but I have limited options in our little condo.

TORO!!!!!:D
Am I right? That looks great btw!

I have had a Ideal-Lume Panelight for a couple of years. The lights are attached to the left and right sides of the back of my wall mounted 45" LCD TV using double-stick tape. About 3 months ago one of the bulbs burned out and I replaced it. I removed the lights from the back of the TV to do the bulb replacement. I had a difficult time getting the light into the ballast so that it was tight enough not to twist or lose its connection when I put the plastic covering back over the bulb. After a lot of trial and error, I finally got it to stay on.

In order to get the lights to stick back on to the LCD I used another layer of doublestick tape over the original layer. About 1 week ago, my other light burned out. At this point I was happy that I bought a pair of replacement bulbs from Alan. :D

I tried to remove the fixtures from the back of the TV again, but this time the double-stick tape was holding the fixtures on too tightly to remove, so I was stuck trying to maneuver my big hands in the small space between the back of my TV and the wall. I was able to get the old bulb out and the new one in, but had a devil of a time trying to lock the bulb into the ballast. I finally had to have my wife give it a try since her hands are smaller than mine. She was able to get it in the ballast, but neither she nor I felt that it was really seated tightly. Every time we tried to put the plastic cover back over the light, it would jostle the connection enough so that the light would go off. We finally resorted to just leaving the plastic cover off of the light.

Has anyone else had this kind of trouble getting the bulbs seated in the ballast? I don't remember having this much trouble with the inital bulbs.

Has something changed in the manufacturing process of the bulbs that makes it more difficult to seat them tightly?

I didn't really notice any difference between the light coming from the covered bulb and the uncovered one. Is the plastic cover only for protection or does it serve some other purpose such as helping with the light diffusion or something?

thanks,
Murray

Sometimes the lamps (bulbs) are difficult to rotate into the sockets. The clear diffuser lens is strictly for protection. I don't think they're really necessary for diffusion, since the continuous phosphor coating inside the glass offers its own excellent diffusion characteristics. Personally, I don't care for double stick tape, for the reasons you have encountered in servicing the product.

Followers of this thread would be interested in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13382471#post13382471

George, I'm going to put your lights in my new kitchen/family room remodel but our walls are a dull yellowy color (I'm colorblind!!!)...I've read the posts and understand painting the wall behind the LCD mounted on the wall is the best way (gray to white in color). If this isn't possible, what color behind the TV are we shooting for? Do we want a pure white color behind just faded to 10% of the TV brightness?

We can't paint a different color for decorating purposes but I want the best that we can do under the circumstances...Thoughts?

Alan,

Just got my idea-lume panelight, and I absolutely love it. I was using a desk lamp that threw out a yellowish light which looked great, but changed alot of color in my pdp.

I used two banner hangers to attach the light and works perfectly. (not having to use velcro to attach is huge.) I can pull the hooks out and adjust the baffle for if I want more/less bias lighting.

Definitely a must have item for any pdp or lcd imho!!!

Now, all I need is another pdp for my room for the extra panelight I received... ;)

Thanks for making such a great product!

Best regards,

David

fridaypast,

You could try covering the lamp with a very light blue theatrical gel. Yellow is "minus blue" in color space, so the illuminated portion of the wall behind the TV would appear less yellow when the bias light is on.

GuB.

Thanks for your report.

I have questions about using Ideal Lume bias lighting with a 63 inch wall mounted plasma with about a three inch gap between the back of the TV and a tan wall:
1. I assume the Panel product is appropriate. One (two lights) or two (four lights)? If only two lights, install on sides or on top/bottom?
2. Do the Panel sets come with spare bulbs?
3. Is all connecting wiring included?
4. I want the bias lighting to turn off/on with the TV. Should I buy the special Ideal Lume power strip or is there something else (smaller) which I can use?

I think it will be best if you send your questions to our company e-mail address. All the answers to your issues are on our web site. Perhaps you could review that information first, then whatever questions remain could be sent directly to us through our e-mail.

I'm not the official moderator of this thread, nor am I even its originator. My repeated participation here is by reason of the fact that I have worked this field of study so much. It's my intention to keep the information I contribute here largely generic to the topic of the thread. Details about my products creep into the dialog at times, which may be acceptable to the moderators only up to a point. There is a wealth of information on my web site that is more specific to what my company does, so that is always the best venue for inquiring about product specifics. Every once in a while I like to swing the pendulum back the other way when I see too much discussion could be perceived as marketing. My participation in this forum is fundamentally as an imaging science advocate, and I'd like to keep it that way as much as possible.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

After reading this entire thread (and others about ambient lighting) I have decided that rope lights were not right for me. Monday morning I ordered an Ideal-lume standard (don't know when it will ship though) and just marking this thread to make it easy to find so I can report back with my thoughts.;)

Just got my idea-lume panelight, and I absolutely love it.
.......
I used two banner hangers to attach the light and works perfectly. (not having to use velcro to attach is huge.) I can pull the hooks out and adjust the baffle for if I want more/less bias lighting.


David,
Could you give more details about your "banner hangers" ...? I've got a set of Panelights, and am also interested in a mounting solution that avoids velcro or double-sticky tape.

Thanks!

David,
Could you give more details about your "banner hangers" ...? I've got a set of Panelights, and am also interested in a mounting solution that avoids velcro or double-sticky tape.

Thanks!

If you have a good wire cutter you can actually make these with a coat hanger. Here ya go!:)

105183
105184
105185

Thanks - very clever!

Got my Ideal-Lume Standard today...here's my mini-review:

First impressions
Very well packed..the double boxing/bubble wrap combined with the light weight of the unit itself means that UPS would have to go out of their way to damage the contents.

As I already mentioned, the unit was light...lighter than expected but seemed to be well made. There is a dark filter/baffle already attached to the bulb via a clear plastic tube, an on/off switch, power cord and mounting hardware. Very simple, no instructions needed.

Mounting/use
It couldn't be easier to mount this unit, I simply attached the 3 velcro strips to the back of the assembly...peeled the protective film off the backside...lined it up on a flat portion of my plasma backing and then pressed lightly. Thats it! As I already mentioned, the unit is very light so I feel that the included velcro strips are sufficient to keep the unit mounted. All that is left to do is plug in the power cord and hit the switch.

I must say that I'm a sceptic by nature and wasn't really expecting a miracle...when I first installed the unit, there was still plenty of ambient light in the room but after sunset I could see the difference. Previously I was using a small 40w halogen desklamp behind the panel that cast a yellowish light....the Ideal-Lume has a more pleasing soft-white light..and it DOES make a difference in the percieved colors/black level onscreen. In fact, I installed the light and then had to leave the house for a few errands...when I returned I wasn't even thinking about the new light and flipped on the tv to tonights episode of Survivor...after a few minutes of watching I noticed that the colors seemed better than usual, and then DING! I remembered why..:p

For anyone considering an Ideal-Lume...it is well worth the price. For less than the cost of taking your wife to a nice restaurant, you can improve the look of your tv and reduce eye strain for night viewing. The price is right, shipping is fast and it takes about 5 minutes to install. What are you waiting for?:D

The correct implementation of imaging science principles always yields an improved viewing experience. Unfortunately, too many in the home entertainment industry are preoccupied with appealing to the uninformed and inexperienced impulses/fads/whims/impressions of the consumer, rather than educating them and following the fundamental rules of good imaging. Focus group marketing might sell more TVs, but adhering to proven professional imaging industry standards and practices will deliver authentically better pictures and preserve image fidelity.

"It's all about the art." Joe Kane.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I am redoing my home theater room and i was thinking about painting the wall that my 150fd (black frame) backs up to black. I use a Ideal-Lume Standard (back light) that my 150fd is in front of. Any ideas about painting the wall black? My thinking is that the 150fd will blend into the black wall.

It's a bit difficult to illuminate black.

anyone tried this http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03473948000P?keyword=fluorescent+light

anyway to know what color temp it is?

anyone tried this http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03473948000P?keyword=fluorescent+light

anyway to know what color temp it is?I highly doubt that would be good for anything other than what it was made for. The color temp would have been listed in the specs/features if it was..

anyone tried this http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03473948000P?keyword=fluorescent+light

anyway to know what color temp it is?

Your kidding, right? :eek:

Would this work? http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/617274840.html :D

anyone tried this http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03473948000P?keyword=fluorescent+light

anyway to know what color temp it is?

F15T8/CW = 4200K , 62CRI

After reading these posts and playing around with a half-a$$ed attempt at biased lighting over the past 2 yrs. I finally decided to order the Ideal-Lume Panelight for my Pio 6010 display. It comes with 2 fixtures. I'm going to mount them on each side. Because the room is low light in day I might leave them on when ever display is on. Thanks for this thread and its info. Ray

Sorry if this is a noob question...but there's no interference with these light fixtures on the back of the plasmas? No magnet to a hard drive type of effect?
Just a bit leery about hanging a fluorescent bulb on the back of such an expensive tv.

Sorry if this is a noob question...but there's no interference with these light fixtures on the back of the plasmas? No magnet to a hard drive type of effect?
Just a bit leery about hanging a fluorescent bulb on the back of such an expensive tv.Not with Ideal-Lume's products for sure. I doubt that any flourescent bulb would cause a problem.

Flat panels don't have electron beams (CRT based TVs) to be miss-directed by magnetic fields. For instance, speakers don't need to be shielded.

I have over 7,000 units in the field, used by mostly audiophile/videophile types, plus world-class professionals, on every continent except Antarctica, and never a complaint about interference of any kind. However, I can't speak for other products that hobbyists have implemented. Draw your own conclusions.:)

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

great to know..thanks guys!

I'm going to get either of these. hope it works!

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20119932

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407

Perhaps we could re-title this thread: "Really Cool Decorating Tips For Home Theater, Or How To Keep Your Wife Quiet For Cheap.":)

+1

I'm going to get either of these. hope it works!
Hope? Neither will produce the correct color for video bias lighting.

I'm going to get either of these. hope it works!

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20119932

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407

Videophiles09,

Why not just get the real thing (Ideal-Lume)?

Videophiles09,

Why not just get the real thing (Ideal-Lume)?

I just don't understand! IF you want to get biased lighting, this means the correct temp, color, effect, why mess with products that AREN'T designed for use with a several thousand $ display. Duh, let's get CHEAP on this one item. Makes NO SENSE! :cool:

GeorgeAB, your products kisk A$$. I hope. I just purchased your Ideal-Lume Panellight. I feel confident in your product and my ability to mount them. Ray

I have two of George's products (two different generations). They both have worked flawlessly. One is nearing 4 or 5 years old now.

I just don't understand! IF you want to get biased lighting, this means the correct temp, color, effect, why mess with products that AREN'T designed for use with a several thousand $ display. Duh, let's get CHEAP on this one item. Makes NO SENSE! :cool:

I agree with you %100.

In Videophiles99 case the price for one of the fixtures is the same as the Ideal-Lume hence my question. Perhaps he is not aware of CinemaQuest in that case here is the link: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

I'm going to get either of these. hope it works!

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20119932

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407Just curious...why would you take a chance of something you "hope works" when there are several real world reviews of a product that is about the same price and does work? (Ideal-lume)

I do appreciate the guinea pig aspect though.:D

I got my Ideal-Lume today and can't wait to try it out. All the mounting examples I've seen don't use the diffuser included in the kit, is there a reason for that?

Got my kit Ideal-Lume kit Monday and simply "hung" them with thin wire into the back cover holes (careful not to touch anything metal) I love...really love the ambiance they create and the reduced eye strain.

George, I'm just curious. If you developed the 6500K T5 with a CRI of 98, would we really see a difference and if we did, would it be positive to the viewing experience or negative?

I've got an Ideal Lume, and I can't seem to get to a happy place with regard to the amount of light output its providing. I'm trying to arrive at a small amount of evenly dispersed light, but what's probably due to the design of my TV stand, the bulb seems to send either way too much light out of the top or way too much light out of the bottom. I was thinking of putting a strip of electrical tape across the diffuser to close the gap a bit more and even out the light.

Any problems with that approach? Or is there a better way to go?

Thanks.

bvh,

If you developed the 6500K T5 with a CRI of 98, would we really see a difference and if we did, would it be positive to the viewing experience or negative?
I've checked into this to some degree. First of all, I have sent one of the T8 98 CRI lamps I sell as former model replacements (and for DIYs) to an independent lab who produces lamps for NASA and other demanding users. They reported back that their measurements showed a CRI of 94. This reveals a chronic problem in the lamp industry. Actual claimed lamp specs often are not necessarily accurate. Sample to sample consistency can be unpredictable. Instrument precision can vary. There's not very much oversight or regulation of such claims, etc.

Another high-end custom lamp producer explained to me that they couldn't guarantee a 98 CRI with T5, due to the smaller diameter of the tube. They said there was not enough space inside the lamp to allow for consistent distribution of the phosphors. Production cost is a huge factor that limits the degree of care and precision exercised by lamp makers. Most users of daylight lamps don't require the level of color precision recommended for industries performing accurate color comparisons. The minimum recommended CRI for such applications is 90.

In 3 years of searching, I've only found one other T5 lamp with a higher CRI than mine. They claim a 91 CRI but at a substantially higher cost. The economics of scale is a huge factor in manufacturing. If the larger market doesn't demand higher performance, specialty market applications, requiring greater precision, tend to be more costly.

Whether "we" would see a difference depends on too many hypothetical issues. In theory, higher color purity is beneficial, but at what cost? Cost/benefit analysis is something everyone does in every aspect of life, and the criteria will vary significantly from person to person, day to day, and circumstances change continuously.

One refreshing aspect of imaging science is that we have proven standards by which to judge performance. We can all be thankful for Joe Kane Productions and the Imaging Science Foundation for educating home entertainment professionals and consumers about video standards over the last 2 decades. Unfortunately, not enough from either camp have listened sufficiently to dispel most of the persistent confusion in the industry.

tbird8450,

I was thinking of putting a strip of electrical tape across the diffuser to close the gap a bit more and even out the light. Any problems with that approach? Or is there a better way to go?

That could work. You can send an e-mail to my company and I can send you an additional strip of light block film. The 2 films can be taped together and re-inserted into the baffle tube to close down the aperture. This is more work than the tape method. It's a bit of a bear to get the films into the tube straight. Another technique is to rotate the entire fixture to regulate the amount of light reaching the wall.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I've have had my Ideal-Lume for a month or two. And I very much like it! However, today when I went to turn it on to watch a movie I noticed it wasn't there! It had fallen off, but thankfully seems to be fine.

When I attached it I used the included alcohol swipe and three strips (pairs) of velcro. The velcro pairs were still stuck together but the adhesive had evidently come lose from the TV. My plasma (Samsung 5884) does get pretty toasty on the back so I think the heat might be negatively affecting the adhesive.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had this problem. I'm hesitant to put it back on as I don't want it to fall off again and risk breaking it! I need to figure something out though as I can't stand not having it, and obviously I'd like to avoid using superglue...

The Samsungs in particular seem to have a coating on the casework from the factory that resists removal by the alcohol swabs. It's usually better to suspend the light as we describe in the install tips sheet that comes with the product. I've seen other brands of flat panels that have been no problem using the Velcro. The stuff we use has the hi-temp industrial type adhesive. It's the same Velcro used to attach toll road transceivers to the inside of auto windshields. These don't come loose, even in intense summer heat through the glass.

The Samsungs in particular seem to have a coating on the casework from the factory that resists removal by the alcohol swabs. It's usually better to suspend the light as we describe in the install tips sheet that comes with the product. I've seen other brands of flat panels that have been no problem using the Velcro. The stuff we use has the hi-temp industrial type adhesive. It's the same Velcro used to attach toll road transceivers to the inside of auto windshields. These don't come loose, even in intense summer heat through the glass.
Ah, I would not have guessed it was Samsung's coating. Interesting. Though now that I think about it, the one I got for my brother's Panasonic did seem to attach more securely.

Is suspending the light when you screw/post it to the wall? I managed to lose the included documentation. Oops!

You can hook or loop wire or string from cabinet screws used to attach the back of the TV cabinet to the front half, or use the vent holes or slots in the back of the TV to attach the string/wire. This way, you can make slings or loops to suspend the fixture horizontally behind the TV. Vertical alignment of the fixture is more challenging, as in the case of wall-mounted flat panels. You'll have to improvise for your specific circumstances.

Attaching a bias light to the wall is not preferred, since it places the light close to the wall surface. Normally, it's better for the light to be as far from the wall's surface as possible. This provides greater distance for the illumination to spread out more evenly. You can download or print a PDF of the installation tips sheet for your model from our web site. The document PDF links are next to each associated photo of the various models on our home site.

You can hook or loop wire or string from cabinet screws used to attach the back of the TV cabinet to the front half, or use the vent holes or slots in the back of the TV to attach the string/wire. This way, you can make slings or loops to suspend the fixture horizontally behind the TV. Vertical alignment of the fixture is more challenging, as in the case of wall-mounted flat panels. You'll have to improvise for your specific circumstances.

Attaching a bias light to the wall is not preferred, since it places the light close to the wall surface. Normally, it's better for the light to be as far from the wall's surface as possible. This provides greater distance for the illumination to spread out more evenly. You can download or print a PDF of the installation tips sheet for your model from our web site. The document PDF links are next to each associated photo of the various models on our home site.

I just installed a light on each side of my 6010 Kuro using soft mechanics wire. I threaded thru the little round ventillation holes on the back. I removed the bulbs and twisted the wire fairly secure around the housing. I then installed the bulbs, tuned both lights on. I then installed an on/off switch in the line. Plugged the 1 line into the wall socket. A very neat, effective job. I can post some pics, if neede. Ray. :cool:

This is exactly what I did. Works good.

I just installed a light on each side of my 6010 Kuro using soft mechanics wire. I threaded thru the little round ventillation holes on the back. I removed the bulbs and twisted the wire fairly secure around the housing. I then installed the bulbs, tuned both lights on. I then installed an on/off switch in the line. Plugged the 1 line into the wall socket. A very neat, effective job. I can post some pics, if neede. Ray. :cool:
screens?????????????

If you have a good wire cutter you can actually make these with a coat hanger. Here ya go!:)

105183
105184
105185


I fastened mine this way and works great;)

screens?????????????

Duh, not sure what you mean? Can you expand on your ??

i got a 30in strip light today from home depot.it is not a led light it is more like a 30in rope light in a black casing so the light is not seen real bad from the side .it looks really good .my question is does anyone worry about the heat .it seems to get kinda hot up there with the light and the heat put off by the plasma tv.im just wandering if i should be worried by the heat thanks

It depends on the flow of hot air as it escapes. If you have it located where the heat will rise away from the panel, there shouldn't be a problem. It sounds like your product is likely an incandescent if it's not LED. In that case, you'll probably get a slightly yellowish glow, not the best for perceived color perception of what's on the screen. A reminder might be in order here. Most of the discussion in SMPTE RP166 pertains to using a D65 light source to preserve correct color perception for the viewer.

Is there a Canadian dealer for Ideal-Lume?
Also is the single unit all that would be needed for a 52" Aquos LCD?

I fastened mine this way and works great;)
Very nice! Thanks for the pics.

Is there a Canadian dealer for Ideal-Lume?
Also is the single unit all that would be needed for a 52" Aquos LCD?
No. Yes, if it's not wall mounted and the wall behind the TV isn't unusually dark in color.

No. Yes, if it's not wall mounted and the wall behind the TV isn't unusually dark in color.

Do you mean if it's wall mounted, I have to buy another configuration? Thanks! :) And would I install on top/bottom or left and right area?

Do you mean if it's wall mounted, I have to buy another configuration? Thanks! And would I install on top/bottom or left and right area?
Please consult the product descriptions and related information on my web site. Most or all of your questions should be answered there. This thread is primarily discussing general bias lighting theory and practice. Product specific details relating to Ideal-Lume models are thoroughly and concisely presented on my site. I prefer to not see readers of this thread burdened with the endless repetition of questions that are handled fully there. Additionally, Ideal-Lume model specific questions are best handled via my company e-mail. I don't mind handling the traffic there.

Dealing with such questions in this venue just gets too redundant, diluting the effectiveness and readability of the thread. I didn't initiate this thread, nor am I the official moderator. My contribution here is intended to advance this area of focus in imaging science and human perceptual factors, for the benefit of members wanting to understand such details.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

What happens to the Ideal-Lume if you dim it? (other than stop working which is what mine did ;) Any ideas how to repair my Ideal-Lume light? Thanks!

The Ideal-Lume fluorescent bias light cannot be dimmed electrically. That would require a very expensive dimming ballast, plus none currently made would fit inside the fixture. Your light comes with a mechanical dimming feature that is set once to match the peak white output of the TV, then left at that setting. Remote control of the bias light must be limited to on/off switching only.

No RF codes currently in use can be taught to an RF remote. Your Harmony simply converts IR codes to its own proprietary RF codes, which are then sent to a matching base station, where they are converted back to IR.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

What happens to the Ideal-Lume if you dim it? (other than stop working which is what mine did ;) Any ideas how to repair my Ideal-Lume light? Thanks!Florescent lights have to be designed to work with dimmers. You may need a new bulb.

I've got a local source which sells fluorescent daylights rated at 6500K with a CRI of 62 to 75. How accurate can I expect these to be?

Also, I've got a 55 inch TV which is about 6 inches from the wall. These bulbs range from 6 inches to 36 inches and has "initial lumens" of 645 to 2200. I have NO idea which product to buy.

I've got a local source which sells fluorescent daylights rated at 6500K with a CRI of 62 to 75. How accurate can I expect these to be?

Also, I've got a 55 inch TV which is about 6 inches from the wall. These bulbs range from 6 inches to 36 inches and has "initial lumens" of 645 to 2200. I have NO idea which product to buy.

I've got a local source which sells fluorescent daylights rated at 6500K with a CRI of 62 to 75. How accurate can I expect these to be?
Industries that rely upon accurate color reproduction and comparison recommend a minimum CRI of 90 out of 100.

I have NO idea which product to buy.
That's the purpose of this thread. Have you read much of it?

I've got a local source which sells fluorescent daylights rated at 6500K with a CRI of 62 to 75. How accurate can I expect these to be?

Also, I've got a 55 inch TV which is about 6 inches from the wall. These bulbs range from 6 inches to 36 inches and has "initial lumens" of 645 to 2200. I have NO idea which product to buy.

You should check out the Ideal-Lume products here:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

These are designed specifically for bias lighting -- they're the correct color temperature and have a built in baffle allowing the brightness to be adjusted appropriately.

You're in the right thread here to find out everything you need to know about adding bias lighting to your setup.. :)

Industries that rely upon accurate color reproduction and comparison recommend a minimum CRI of 90 out of 100.


That's the purpose of this thread. Have you read much of it?

Thanks for the info on the CRI. I have read much of this thread, infact looking at pictures in this thread is why I joined AVS forum a year ago. As far as the NO idea what to buy, lets say that was a bit of embellishment. I only recently found out about this local source and got into a living situation where I think that bias lighting could really help me out.

Without understanding the importance of the CRI, i was considering more of a "custom fit" solution as I had a more variance of lengths and wattages available to me than a 1 size fits all solution will afford me.

It seems as if the thought is that a lower wattage (or lumens) product is desirable, which makes sense as to not entirely light the room or overwhelm the picture. I like the Ideal-lume product, may end up buying one as its likely to end up the best solution, but I like to source locally when possible and if theres a benefit to having say a... 30" bulb instead of a 12" bulb in my setup, I'd like to learn why and how to get the best solution possible.

I'd like to learn why and how to get the best solution possible.What you want to achive is a very dim glow around your display. That would be less than 10% of the average brightness of what you are watching. Having too much light is one of the problems you will need to deal with.

The reason I developed my products is precisely because it is so difficult for most people to locate the right solutions locally. Your questions will be better answered once you understand the technology and technique correctly. If you have read this thread, and taken the effort to follow the various links for additional information, there should be little doubt how to implement the technique in your system. A 30" fluorescent will be overkill unless you have a VERY dark wall behind the TV.

I think you are right. Its a time for a trip to the "Light Bulb Shop" (yeah, thats really the name of the place, I think GeorgeAB would be something of a kid in a candy store with how much he knows about this stuff) for at least a look around tomorrow before getting into an ideal-lume. Gotta do my research but I think its not going to get any better than that.

I've got a local source which sells fluorescent daylights rated at 6500K with a CRI of 62 to 75. How accurate can I expect these to be?

Also, I've got a 55 inch TV which is about 6 inches from the wall. These bulbs range from 6 inches to 36 inches and has "initial lumens" of 645 to 2200. I have NO idea which product to buy.

I really wouldn't invest much time here - just get the ideal-lume product. I bought it several months ago and strongly recommend it if you want the very best product quality and value. I like to promote a good thing when I see/experience it - this is one of them.

If anything, it's a bit bright, but has a really nifty sleeve around the bulb that can both attenuate and direct the light.

What is something I could cover my walls with (as cheap as possible) to give me a better representation of gray for the idealume bias lighting?

I mean like covering my walls with computer paper or sheets?

I currently have wallpaper on my walls which are fairly white with light blue stripes going down them.

Also, I was wondering how long until I should expect to see a shipping notice of my idealume light?

I ordered it 2 days ago and I sent them an e-mail today asking this, but I'm sure I'm just being impatient and need to wait. I just want it so badly!

Thanks in advance

-Brian

Could someone PLEASE tell me if Cinemaquest sends you a tracking number for the idealume standard light!!

I've been waiting four days and I also e-mailed them two days ago and still haven't received a response.

I just want this light BADLY and I'm a VERY impatient person.

I'm only asking because I'm worried they didn't receive my order or something. I've had that happen with online retailers more than I care to think about.

Thank you,

-Brian

I just want this light BADLY and I'm a VERY impatient person.It sounds like you ordered on Friday. Friday's are followed by a two day weekend. That's fewer than two full business days. ;)

I ordered on Thursday. Although it still seems that I should have received some kind of shipping confirmation or notice withing two business days..

Sorry folks! We had an e-mail disturbance at the end of last week and we're digging our way out of it now. I expect recent orders should get their shipping confirmations, with tracking numbers, today or tomorrow at the latest. To compound that I was out of town from Friday afternoon till this morning.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

What is something I could cover my walls with (as cheap as possible) to give me a better representation of gray for the idealume bias lighting?

I mean like covering my walls with computer paper or sheets?

I currently have wallpaper on my walls which are fairly white with light blue stripes going down them.
Neutral paint (flat) is the cheapest alternative. White is neutral. Your wall paper doesn't sound that bad. Neutral fabric acoustic panels (2" thick minimum) are the best wall covering behind a TV, but that's more costly. All of these options have been discussed multiple times throughout this thread.

Thank you, actually I found this:

http://www.rpimaging.com/store/PID123

I was thinking of getting the N7 version because it is darker.

I read through most of this thread AFTER I made that post, so I apologize about that.

I just hope that is the right kind of paint and that it would be easy to paint over my existing walls with.. I have ZERO knowhow in home repairs / improvements. :o

Again I was just worried I didn't place my order properly and that I would have to wait even longer still.

Sorry for sounding like a pest and thank you for answering my questions..

-Brian

I should warn you that years ago I was an exterminator and managed the pest control program for a 400 acre facility in Ohio for 7 years!:eek:
Thanks for the link. Previously, I was only aware of the acrylic lacquer direct from Munsell that was extremely expensive and gave off volatile, toxic and annoying fumes.

*looks around nervously*

LOL!

I'm a bit stuck..... I have the Idealume connected to a 42 inch panel upstairs and love it but, I purchase another 42 inch for the basement and I know I'm going to have an issue hiding them. This is not so much do to the lenght of the bulb but, the plug and wire curling over. I wish the was some solution like I've seen with HDMI cable where instead of it sticking straight out it would kind of be bent over making it flatter.

What you want to achive is a very dim glow around your display. That would be less than 10% of the average brightness of what you are watching. Having too much light is one of the problems you will need to deal with.

How do you determine the "average brightness" of what you're watching. The way I understand it is you set the brightness of the bias light to 10% of the brightest white on the screen by using the baffle. During normal viewing, won't this "brightest white" level be constantly changing based on the current scene, and therefore won't that bias setting be too bright for part of the time and too dim for the rest?

Other questions I have - even if the bulb has the desired color temp of 6500K, isn't it more important that the corrected color temp of the reflected light have that reading, since bias lighting by definition is reflected light? Won't the wall covering and color have a large effect on the CCT?

Finally, I read here that there have been no complaints about Radio Frequency Interference from using the Ideal Lume fluorescent bulbs near TVs. It was always my understanding that the ballast in most fluorescent bulbs cause RFI. Are the Ideal Lume lights specially made to reduce RFI?

As you can probably tell, after reading through most of this thread trying to decide on the way I want to do bias lighting, I'm left with many questions. Thanks for everyone's knowledge.

You don't choose an "average" brightness...

You properly calibrate your display and when you do you take 10% of whatever your 100IRE result is and that is the amount of reflected bias lighting you should have in your viewing area.

You choose 10% so that when the scene is dark it's not overpowering, but yes it would appear "brighter" than when the TV has a bright scene. 10% is SMPTE standards, it's correct...

Your second question is answered with the reason you should have a neutral colored backround, preferably a darker gray...

If you're thinking of using a red light because you have a blue wall to try to "even out" the color temp, you're in for a terrible experience, to be sure...

GeorgeAB has said on this thread NUMEROUS times that he has thousands of Idealume lights in the field an ZERO complaints about interference. So don't worry about it!

Hope that helps,

-Brian

You don't choose an "average" brightness...

You properly calibrate your display and when you do you take 10% of whatever your 100IRE result is and that is the amount of reflected bias lighting you should have in your viewing area.

You choose 10% so that when the scene is dark it's not overpowering, but yes it would appear "brighter" than when the TV has a bright scene. 10% is SMPTE standards, it's correct...
Precisely! The recommendation is 10% of peak white not average white. Adjust the TV's picture controls for dark room viewing. Either display a 100% white full field or window pattern (window for plasma and CRT), then use a spot reading luminance meter (very expensive) to measure the TV screen and compare to the measurement of the reflected light of the bias light.

The cheapest way to adjust the bias light is with the right test pattern. 'Avia Guide To Home Theater,' 'Avia II,' 'Sound & Vision Home Theater Tune-Up,' 'Avia Professional,' 'Video Essentials,' 'Digital Video Essentials,' 'DVE: HD Basics,' 'DVE Pro' DVDs all have the correct pattern for adjusting bias lighting by eye.

Your second question is answered with the reason you should have a neutral colored backround, preferably a darker gray...

If you're thinking of using a red light because you have a blue wall to try to "even out" the color temp, you're in for a terrible experience, to be sure...
White is neutral and part of the gray scale. It's fine for the wall behind the TV. A lighter front wall will actually serve to enhance perception of black levels on the screen in higher ambient lighting conditions, like during the day with window shades open. Other walls in the room may reflect in the screen, so they may be better off a darker color.

GeorgeAB has said on this thread NUMEROUS times that he has thousands of Idealume lights in the field an ZERO complaints about interference. So don't worry about it!
Fluorescent ballasts will interfere with AM radio signals. It appears none of my customers operates their bias light while listening to AM radio.

after reading through most of this thread trying to decide on the way I want to do bias lighting, I'm left with many questions.
The right information is in this thread. However, much wrong information is in it as well. Maybe that's why you still had questions. The most complete, concise, and accurate source for information about bias lighting and video viewing environment issues is my web site.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Shoot!

Well, 1 out of 3 isn't so bad! :p

Not in Russian roulette!:)

Shoot!

Well, 1 out of 3 isn't so bad! :pGood for a multi-million dollar contract as a major league hitter! :D

Not good for: bar stool, tricycle, fork tines, tripod, propeller blades, 3-piece suit at a business meeting.......

The cheapest way to adjust the bias light is with the right test pattern.
Yes, but once set to 10% of the test pattern, will that remain a good setting for the varying brightness throughout a typical movie or show?


Fluorescent ballasts will interfere with AM radio signals. It appears none of my customers operates their bias light while listening to AM radio.
Ballasts generate EMI/RFI and can affect any electronic device, not just AM radios. The fact that no one has complained about RFI from your bulbs is a good thing, but my question was, are these bulbs specially modified to reduce RFI, seeing as how they are meant to be used in close proximity to TVs.


The right information is in this thread. However, much wrong information is in it as well. Maybe that's why you still had questions. The most complete, concise, and accurate source for information about bias lighting and video viewing environment issues is my web site.
The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff. Yes, I have read everything on your site and I thank you for that information. It led me to investigate further, which is what is generating my questions. I appreciate your answers.

The bias light level should not fluctuate with program luminance changes. It is set for the TV, not the program. Our lights use electronic ballasts, not electromagnetic, therefore they are not so noisy. The ballasts are not specifically engineered for TV proximity as far as I know.

Our customers tend to be audiophile/videophile types and professionals, using the products for critical viewing and listening applications, including mastering. Such clients have included: NIST, ISF, THX Ltd., ILM, by deluxe, E-Film, CinRam, Deluxe Digital Studios, PostWorks, Electronic Arts, Radical Games, Zombie Studios, Factor 5, High Moon Studios, SlantSix Games, Universal Pictures, Joe Kane Productions, Microsoft Corp., Samsung Germany, Metropolitan Museum of Art- Video Production Lab, CNET Labs, About.com Labs, Image Entertainment, DisplayMate Technologies, Rev13 Films, Filet Post Production, Canadian Communications Research Center, Digital Film Lab- Copenhagen, Splice Here, etc. If your standards are higher than these guys, more power to ya.

Our customers tend to be audiophile/videophile types and professionals, using the products for critical viewing and listening applications, including mastering. Such clients have included: NIST, ISF, THX Ltd., ILM, by deluxe, E-Film, CinRam, Deluxe Digital Studios, PostWorks, Electronic Arts, Radical Games, Zombie Studios, Factor 5, High Moon Studios, SlantSix Games, Universal Pictures, Joe Kane Productions, Microsoft Corp., Samsung Germany, Metropolitan Museum of Art- Video Production Lab, CNET Labs, About.com Labs, Image Entertainment, DisplayMate Technologies, Rev13 Films, Filet Post Production, Canadian Communications Research Center, Digital Film Lab- Copenhagen, Splice Here, etc. If your standards are higher than these guys, more power to ya.
Yeah, but anybody reputable that we might have heard of? :D:D:D
I'd say this particular line of questioning has come to a close!

Yeah, but anybody reputable that we might have heard of? :D:D:D
I'd say this particular line of questioning has come to a close!
Then what's the point of this thread if one can't ask questions. A long list of customers doesn't make something a fact. I asked if this bulb has any special shielding to reduce RFI. A simple yes/no answer would have sufficed. Instead I'm told that no one has complained about noise. Good to know but didn't answer the question.

Are the Ideal Lume lights specially made to reduce RFI?
GeorgeAB has said on this thread NUMEROUS times that he has thousands of Idealume lights in the field an ZERO complaints about interference.
Fluorescent ballasts will interfere with AM radio signals. It appears none of my customers operates their bias light while listening to AM radio.
Ballasts generate EMI/RFI and can affect any electronic device, not just AM radios. The fact that no one has complained about RFI from your bulbs is a good thing, but my question was, are these bulbs specially modified to reduce RFI, seeing as how they are meant to be used in close proximity to TVs.

Our lights use electronic ballasts, not electromagnetic, therefore they are not so noisy. The ballasts are not specifically engineered for TV proximity as far as I know.
I asked if this bulb has any special shielding to reduce RFI. A simple yes/no answer would have sufficed. Instead I'm told that no one has complained about noise. Good to know but didn't answer the question.
You never actually asked if there was "shielding" on the bulb (lamp tube). I get so many questions that don't use terms accurately, I mistakenly misinterpreted your question. Sorry. The simple answer to your final question is, no. However, the lack of such shielding hasn't presented a problem for other users of the products I offer. Since thousands in the field without complaint wasn't a sufficiently persuasive testimony of a lack of interference with TVs, I supplied a more specific list of users you might recognize as technically demanding and discriminating customers. I wasn't intentionally dodging your question.

What are some cheaper options for a bias light for a wall mounted 50" plasma?
I have a bias light that I bought from H.D. for $15 with a 65ooK light, but it has to be placed on its' base which was good back when I had a stand, but not anymore.

The cheaper option is to expend the time, gas and effort in locating suitable components for your application. I developed my solutions so videophiles could have exactly what they need to apply the principles of the technique correctly and accurately. Our lamps measure within SMPTE tolerances for CIE D65 and provide a method for regulating the output of the lamp. That's the results of 8 years of aggressive R&D. For my efforts, you get to pay me. Good luck.

I'm sure your product is superb. Been reccomended to me a few times.
I was just looking to see what people are using as diy options as a cheaper alternative.
I didn't realize this was a specific brand thread, I apologize.

It's not a specific brand thread, as can be recognized by all the detailed help and advice I have given members throughout its length over the years for building their own solutions. This is a topical thread. I participate to teach about the technique as a thoroughly knowledgeable manufacturer in the field. If you have a problem with my posts, you are welcomed to complain to the moderator.

Huh?
I wasn't being sarcastic which is what it seems you must have thought.
I didn't look through the thread, which is my fault, so I really didn't know either way.

I'm sure your product is superb. Been reccomended to me a few times.
I was just looking to see what people are using as diy options as a cheaper alternative.
I didn't realize this was a specific brand thread, I apologize.

Post 678 on page 23 is the best home implementation I've seen.

Post 678 on page 23 is the best home implementation I've seen.
E-A-G-L-E-S,

I've been reading this thread for a few days now and what I've found out is this - if you want real help and not something like this from Lofty17 (ie don't bother looking at that post he recommended), or if you're looking for answers other than "Just shut up and buy an Ideal-Lume", then I suggest you search elsewhere.

I was suprised at the response I got and then no answer.

I was suprised at the response I got and then no answer.

OK, here's a response that might help. You said you haven't bothered to read this thread. If you start at post number 1 and read all the way back to here, you'll find a wealth of information about home kludges people have tried. Some have been very happy with their results. Personally, after reading this entire thread myself, I decided that $40.00 spent on an excellent product that actually does what it is supposed to is a very reasonable price. You even get a spare bulb.

Or, gosh, if you don't have time to research it yourself maybe someone will post a Cliff Notes version for you.

OK, here's a response that might help. You said you haven't bothered to read this thread. If you start at post number 1 and read all the way back to here, you'll find a wealth of information about home kludges people have tried. Some have been very happy with their results. Personally, after reading this entire thread myself, I decided that $40.00 spent on an excellent product that actually does what it is supposed to is a very reasonable price. You even get a spare bulb.

Or, gosh, if you don't have time to research it yourself maybe someone will post a Cliff Notes version for you.

Man can I feel the love, lol.
According to their site the plasma light is $100, so a diy option would be much less than that and I was not aware of any $40 alternative.
Also, this is a large thread and no I didn't have the time to read the whole thing.....excuse me, that is why I even apologized. But I guess that isn't good enough.

The $40 option is the Ideal-lume standard, which is good for any TV that is NOT wall mounted, if yours is wall mounted then you need the panelight that includes two standards and a connection cable.

When you think about all the time you would have to look around to find an alternative, one that is the right temp with a very high CRI and all the gas / travel money that it could cost you to mess it up, suddenly the Ideal-lumes seem like a diamond in the rough...

The only other suggestions I've seen from DIY is ropelight and those Reveal lightbulbs, which are both grossly incorrect for bias lighting, but will probably still releave eye strain, which is indeed a problem.

I say support the home theater community, save yourself time and money, and get the best product available for your money, and be happy knowing you don't have to worry about it again. It's a one time buy for the most part and it's really not that expensive.

If you want better products that are geared towards home theater, than support the people who are producing said products...

-Brian

Which IRE gray is close or exactly to 10% ISF peak white?

I ask because I'm using the original AVIA and the backlight test shows a 5% and 10% spilt screen pattern, and my eyes are not too great, but I can't match 10% without getting 5% in my field of view and messing up my calibration...

I'm looking for a full field gray I can throw up on my screen to compare to my walls behind to adjust the backlight...

Thanks in advance

-Brian

It really is just for eye fatigue at night for me. But wouldn't any 6.5K lamp do?
I will read up on how what Ideal-Lume offers would or wouldn't benefit me to that price point.
This thread will take a little while to get through though.

Thanks for the help kamui.

Or, gosh, if you don't have time to research it yourself maybe someone will post a Cliff Notes version for you.
OK, I can do that. Here's the Cliff Notes for the 38 pages of this thread.
"Bias lighting is good. 6500K. 10% intensity. Oh, and if you don't buy an Ideal-Lume, you're an idiot."

Seriously though, this is not exactly rocket science. There are many light sources besides fluorescent bulbs that can provide 6500K light. And there are a lot better ways of controlling the light to provide the proper intensity than using some kind of mechanical baffle or film. How high-tech is that?

I've been researching LEDs (and I'm not talking about the Christmas lights you buy at Home Depot) and I've found many examples of white LEDs with color temps of 6000K-6500K. If the white LEDs are not really and exactly 6500K then you can buy RGB LEDs that can be driven to give off any color temp you want. Maybe your eyes are not the same as everyone else's and you perceive daylight to be 6200K. With an RGB LED, you can adjust it to this exact value. I'd like to see you do that with a fluorescent bulb.

LEDs are electrically dimmable and remotely controllable. If a scene you're watching is very dark, then you can remotely adjust the intensity of the bias light to be 10% of that rather than of some bright test pattern. Once again, you can't do that with a fluorescent unless you hire a small child to stand behind your TV and rotate that baffle.

The LED strips are very small and unobtrusive, give off no RFI, and are relatively inexpensive. I guess if you're satisfied with all the shortcomings of the fluorescents, and "don't have the time" to try for something better, than by all means, buy one of them.

One last thing and I'm outta here. I suggest that this thread be re-titled to "Official Ideal-Lume Owners Thread". Anyone interested in discussing bias lighting options should go elsewhere.

Also, this is a large thread and no I didn't have the time to read the whole thing.....excuse me, that is why I even apologized. But I guess that isn't good enough.
This forum usually frowns on direct product promotion by vendors in the threads, even if they maintain a banner ad. Your comment about this being a specific brand thread sounded to me like a jab. It's a perpetual challenge to help people who have questions about my products without going overboard in promoting my products. I may get a little extra slack since I'm a manufacturer and expert in this field. We misunderstood each other and there was no need for you to apologize.

If you don't have the time to read through the thread, how will you have the time to search out the right components for correct bias lighting? There is an enormous variety of specific alternate solutions discussed throughout this thread. Why repeat it all again? Wouldn't that take almost as much time? Please refer to what has already been submitted for guidance. What works for one person may not work for your installation. If you are actually long on spare time and short on cash, there are alternative parts available in many communities or online, too many to mention specifics. There are plenty of members here who have gone the DIY route and finally come to me in the end. I'm aggressive and confident (if somewhat clumsy at times) in recommending my solutions because so many members have expressed their regret for wasting so much time and trouble attempting it on their own.

Many members are satisfied with poor color rendering alternatives. They may have colored walls and consider the compromise acceptable. My recommendations match what is technically correct. Each viewer will have to decide what compromises are suitable for their system. That's not even possible to determine intelligently without understanding the principles underlying the technique and the consequences that result from compromise. The education available in this thread is absolutely unique in the home theater community. Similar knowledge is out there, but scattered all over the place, with the exception of my web site.

I am an imaging science advocate and have focused especially upon human perceptual factors and viewing environment principles in my career. Bias lighting is only one part of what can be done in a room to enhance and preserve image fidelity and viewing comfort. Most consumers find it to be the simplest to comprehend, at least partially. Eye strain relief seems to get discussed the most among consumers, but SMPTE's human factors work gives much more emphasis to how the technique affects image quality. That's why I am so picky about the color quality of the lamp and the color of the wall behind the TV.

My site also features high quality lamps for DIYs who have a harder time locating them than they do finding fixtures. For the record, you substantially over-stated the price of our Panelight model. Forums are nice for discussing many issues but hardly the most reliable place to go for accurate information. Hopefully, you'll be able to sort out what's authoritative vs. anecdotal in this thread.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

One last thing and I'm outta here. I suggest that this thread be re-titled to "Official Ideal-Lume Owners Thread". Anyone interested in discussing bias lighting options should go elsewhere.

the title of this thread is crystal clear

Good bye

Seriously though, this is not exactly rocket science. There are many light sources besides fluorescent bulbs that can provide 6500K light. And there are a lot better ways of controlling the light to provide the proper intensity than using some kind of mechanical baffle or film. How high-tech is that?
No, but it is exactly imaging science. Other sources for 6500K light are available but either put out much greater heat, have poor color rendering, are a poor form factor, or cost much more. "High-tech?," more than you are aware. The method is simple but also much more affordable than electronic dimming.

I've been researching LEDs (and I'm not talking about the Christmas lights you buy at Home Depot) and I've found many examples of white LEDs with color temps of 6000K-6500K. If the white LEDs are not really and exactly 6500K then you can buy RGB LEDs that can be driven to give off any color temp you want. Maybe your eyes are not the same as everyone else's and you perceive daylight to be 6200K. With an RGB LED, you can adjust it to this exact value. I'd like to see you do that with a fluorescent bulb.

These issues have been discussed multiple times earlier in the thread. I have also been researching LEDs and have been testing them in my lab for years. This will be a great solution some day, just not right now. Every LED product I've tested that claimed to be 6500K, from pre-assembled backlight solutions to individual diodes sent to me by OEMs, have been GROSSLY inaccurate. They usually measure about 8500K and are obviously way too blue to the eye. How one's individual eyesight perceives daylight is irrelevant. Video is mastered at CIE D65, oversimplified for consumers to 6500 Kelvins. Therefore, the ambient lighting for video viewing should match the 'white point' of the image on the screen, then both will be perceived to match by someone with color perception deficiencies. Infinitely and precisely adjustable RGB LED arrays are VERY expensive.

If a scene you're watching is very dark, then you can remotely adjust the intensity of the bias light to be 10% of that rather than of some bright test pattern.
Completely unnecessary. You don't understand the basics of bias lighting.

The LED strips are very small and unobtrusive, give off no RFI, and are relatively inexpensive. I guess if you're satisfied with all the shortcomings of the fluorescents, and "don't have the time" to try for something better, than by all means, buy one of them.
What shortcomings?

One last thing and I'm outta here. I suggest that this thread be re-titled to "Official Ideal-Lume Owners Thread". Anyone interested in discussing bias lighting options should go elsewhere.
This is the place to discuss bias lighting in general. I am more interested in alternative solutions and better methods than anyone who ever comes here, as long as they perform according to display industry standards and practices. As soon as other solutions become available, which are accurate and reasonably affordable, I'll adopt it as well. I'm still a hobbyist at heart and tinker with stuff all the time. Better ideas are always welcome.

Which IRE gray is close or exactly to 10% ISF peak white?
It should be about 30 IRE.

[QUOTE The only other suggestions I've seen from DIY is ropelight and those Reveal lightbulbs, which are both grossly incorrect for bias lighting, but will probably still releave eye strain, which is indeed a problem.
ple who are producing said products...-Brian[/QUOTE]

Why won't "Reveal" lamps work? I don't recall reading that. GE call them "Daylight" and while they don't say they are 6500K, "daylight" is a term used in the lamp industry to describe 6500K and being an incandescent lamp the CRI is approx 100.

This forum usually frowns on direct product promotion by vendors in the threads, even if they maintain a banner ad. Your comment about this being a specific brand thread sounded to me like a jab. It's a perpetual challenge to help people who have questions about my products without going overboard in promoting my products. I may get a little extra slack since I'm a manufacturer and expert in this field. We misunderstood each other and there was no need for you to apologize.

If you don't have the time to read through the thread, how will you have the time to search out the right components for correct bias lighting? There is an enormous variety of specific alternate solutions discussed throughout this thread. Why repeat it all again? Wouldn't that take almost as much time? Please refer to what has already been submitted for guidance. What works for one person may not work for your installation. If you are actually long on spare time and short on cash, there are alternative parts available in many communities or online, too many to mention specifics. There are plenty of members here who have gone the DIY route and finally come to me in the end. I'm aggressive and confident (if somewhat clumsy at times) in recommending my solutions because so many members have expressed their regret for wasting so much time and trouble attempting it on their own.

Many members are satisfied with poor color rendering alternatives. They may have colored walls and consider the compromise acceptable. My recommendations match what is technically correct. Each viewer will have to decide what compromises are suitable for their system. That's not even possible to determine intelligently without understanding the principles underlying the technique and the consequences that result from compromise. The education available in this thread is absolutely unique in the home theater community. Similar knowledge is out there, but scattered all over the place, with the exception of my web site.

I am an imaging science advocate and have focused especially upon human perceptual factors and viewing environment principles in my career. Bias lighting is only one part of what can be done in a room to enhance and preserve image fidelity and viewing comfort. Most consumers find it to be the simplest to comprehend, at least partially. Eye strain relief seems to get discussed the most among consumers, but SMPTE's human factors work gives much more emphasis to how the technique affects image quality. That's why I am so picky about the color quality of the lamp and the color of the wall behind the TV.

My site also features high quality lamps for DIYs who have a harder time locating them than they do finding fixtures. For the record, you substantially over-stated the price of our Panelight model. Forums are nice for discussing many issues but hardly the most reliable place to go for accurate information. Hopefully, you'll be able to sort out what's authoritative vs. anecdotal in this thread.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I appreciate the response. I never looked at image fidelity part of it, just eye strain relief which is why I use a H.D. flourescent lamp that was cheap and 6500K. It has worked perfectly but cannot be used in new application.
I have started reading this thread and will know more soon enough.
Maybe in a couple days I'll be buying one because the image fidelity side will become something I feel I want/need.

[QUOTE] is why I use a H.D. flourescent lamp that was cheap and 6500K(QUOTE]

The problem with cheap is it usually means a low CRI which IMO defeats the purpose. For example if it is a standard 6500K T12 lamp, the CRI is only 62.

Why won't "Reveal" lamps work? I don't recall reading that. GE call them "Daylight" and while they don't say they are 6500K, "daylight" is a term used in the lamp industry to describe 6500K and being an incandescent lamp the CRI is approx 100.
All 6500K lamps are referred to as 'daylight' lamps, but not all 'daylight' lamps are 6500K. Anything above 5000K is considered 'daylight.' The standard for video white is CIE D65 not 6500K. A correlated color temperature (CCT) of 6500K can be anything from cyan tinted, through the 'black body' curve, to magenta tinted white. CRI is not as precise, complete, or revealing (pun) as a spectral power distribution graph (SPD). Due to the way incandescents are measured for CRI, I suspect the Reveal-type products may be an exception and not actually 100. I used to have a spectral graph of a Reveal bulb in my files but I'll have to look more at the office. It is simply a standard incandescent with a blue coating on the glass. As I recall, the spectral content was still way too red. The objective for that lamp was to filter out some of the yellow. Terminology in the lighting industry can be very vague and sometimes grossly false, especially in marketing materials.

Thank you.

"Terminology in the lighting industry can be very vague and sometimes grossly false, especially in marketing materials"

I couldn't agree more with that statement!

[QUOTE] is why I use a H.D. flourescent lamp that was cheap and 6500K(QUOTE]

The problem with cheap is it usually means a low CRI which IMO defeats the purpose. For example if it is a standard 6500K T12 lamp, the CRI is only 62.

It did still work for eye fatigue though, which is why it was bought.
Didn't even hear of the other uses for a bias light until recently.
Still reading up on the subject.

A quick recap of uses is:

-Eye fatigue... If you watch television in a darkened enviroment, which is best for image fidelity as it avoids light glare, you eyes and iris' will have to dialate and retract a LOT, which will with even a relatively short period of time will start to give you head / neck aches and pains... Very unpleasant..

Placing a light BEHIND the display avoids eye fatigue, and avoids reflective glare on the screen!

-Color accuracy... Having the correct temperature and color rendering index (CRI) on the light you use behind your television will be able to match the colors that are reproduced by your display!

The reason this is SO important for image fidelity I'll explain through an example:

Let's say you have an incorrect bias light behind your display. As your watching your TV, your eyes are capturing the surrounding areas as well. Now, if you have an incorrect color bias light (say with a yellowish tinge, like normal lightbulbs) the color that light is reproducing will be captured by your eye and will then be taken away from the television.

In other words if you had a red light, you would perceive less reds on your TV, if blue light, less blue, if yellow normal bulb, less of that color...

Or if no bias light already, the area surrounding the TV is black, thus reducing perceived black level of your display!!

By correctly implementing a TRUE 6500k bias light with at least a 90CRI rating, you are matching your TV's colors, so your not taking away from it, you are only enhacing it resulting in better perceived black levels and correct color reproduction!

It's a miniscule price to pay to get a correct light source with a free bulb no less from Ideal-lume. You can make this small "mostly" one time purchase, and know that you have the best your small contribution to the AV community can afford!

GeorgeAB is an AV enthusiast like everyone else here, he just so happened to make a profession out of his discoveries to try to help people like you and me from all the troubles of trying to figure this out on our own, like he had to. I personally appreciate people like him who help the community before his bank account. He could have went the route of huge marketing claims and outright lies, jacked his prices sky high, and made a LOT more money. But instead he remains true to helping people from the pitfalls he has surely discovered on his quest to get CORRECT implementation of bias lighting!

I just want to send out a HUGE "Thank You" to GeorgeAB and people in the industry like him. You've saved us a lot of time, money, and stress. You've enhanced the viewing experience for a lot of people and you've remained true and honest all the while.

Thank you

-Brian

It's a bit difficult to completely understand how bias lighting fits and works in a video system without a broader perspective. This article offers the best comprehensive, but concise, summary of viewing environment and human factors elements to consider: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

Good info.
The lamp I was using was at least supposedly a 6500K cfl.
My display wall is a caramel orange.

A quick recap of uses is:
Eye fatigue... Color accuracy...

I just want to send out a HUGE "Thank You" to GeorgeAB and people in the industry like him. You've saved us a lot of time, money, and stress. You've enhanced the viewing experience for a lot of people and you've remained true and honest all the while. Brian

Excellent post Brian and I agree 100%.

Along with the picture quality benefits and the reduced eye strain with a proper bias light, I most appreciate the added "depth" to the picture that the bias light gives (I have a 46" LCD).

While this does not need to be an "Ideal-Lume are us" thread, the product does do what it is intended to do and it does it very well. Thanks again George.

"Let's say you have an incorrect bias light behind your display. As your watching your TV, your eyes are capturing the surrounding areas as well. Now, if you have an incorrect color bias light (say with a yellowish tinge, like normal lightbulbs) the color that light is reproducing will be captured by your eye and will then be taken away from the television. "

Everyone knows about the distraction of other lights in a dark home theatre room...yet every audio component brand out there is still producing their "high-end" product lines with BLUE LED lighting!

"human vision becomes far more sensitive to blue when ambient light levels are low, a phenomenon known as the Purkinje shift. So a blue light that is merely eye-catching on a brightly lit store shelf can become dazzling when the lights are low, such as when watching a movie on a laptop in a dimly lit room." -
Interesting article at h**p://www.dcontinuum.com/content/news.php?id=209
Darn it...I'm not a spammer...oh well...apology accepted.

...just a little pseudo off-topic rant...

Interesting link. It makes sense to me, based on what I have learned elsewhere. Another case of unintended consequences coming back around to bite someone in the butt. This isn't really pertaining specifically to bias lighting but is good to consider when evaluating other viewing environment design decisions.

Maybe they see using the blue LEDs as an excuse to push the color temp of their displays even higher than the ridiculous levels that they are already. Is anyone as perplexed as I am about the use of the blue "running lights" on the bottom of the Mits sets? Let's just add some 15" woofers while we are at it and make it really cool!

Guys I just wall mounted an LNT4671F 46" samsung LCD HDTV. I also have purchased and received the Ideal-Lume Standard.

My question is should I mount the light vertically or horizontally? and either way should it be stationed in the middle of the tv? Finally where should I have the baffle tube aiming the light? at the wall behind the tv? Or should it be aiming at the back of the tv?

Thanks in Advance!

Guys I just wall mounted an LNT4671F 46" samsung LCD HDTV. I also have purchased and received the Ideal-Lume Standard.
That product is a single fixture. Is there some particular reason why you selected that model over the one specifically configured for wall mounted flat TVs? Typically, multiple fixtures provide more even spread of the illumination due to a couple of factors: the presence of the TV's mounting bracket, and the lack of distance for one light's illumination to spread out on the wall in a way that surrounds the TV.

My question is should I mount the light vertically or horizontally?
Try both methods before permanently mounting the light. Some people use duct tape or Gorilla tape to temporarily attach the light to the back of the TV cabinet, while experimenting with various mounting positions.

either way should it be stationed in the middle of the tv?
Theoretically, yes. However, in your case, won't the TV's wall bracket be in the way?

Finally where should I have the baffle tube aiming the light? at the wall behind the tv? Or should it be aiming at the back of the tv?
Usually the wall. In some cases the illumination on the wall might still be too bright. In such a case, aiming the illumination towards the back of the TV can further dim the light reaching the wall.

I encourage customers who purchase my products to correspond with me directly, at my company. Since I developed the product, I know very well how it can be correctly implemented. My company is quite small and I monitor all e-mails sent to it. I genuinely enjoy corresponding with my customers, in almost all cases.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

That product is a single fixture. Is there some particular reason why you selected that model over the one specifically configured for wall mounted flat TVs? Typically, multiple fixtures provide more even spread of the illumination due to a couple of factors: the presence of the TV's mounting bracket, and the lack of distance for one light's illumination to spread out on the wall in a way that surrounds the TV.


Try both methods before permanently mounting the light. Some people use duct tape or Gorilla tape to temporarily attach the light to the back of the TV cabinet, while experimenting with various mounting positions.


Theoretically, yes. However, in your case, won't the TV's wall bracket be in the way?


Usually the wall. In some cases the illumination on the wall might still be too bright. In such a case, aiming the illumination towards the back of the TV can further dim the light reaching the wall.

I encourage customers who purchase my products to correspond with me directly, at my company. Since I developed the product, I know very well how it can be correctly implemented. My company is quite small and I monitor all e-mails sent to it. I actually enjoy corresponding with my customers, in almost all cases.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

First, I tried to make post and even called retailer and asked about it, but he said I should be ok with the ideal-lume standard. I have already figured out how I can get the light behind the tv....centered...and finally horizontal, but now I am seriously considering the Ideal-Lume Panelight.

I might also just use tape instead of the velcro just to see if I can get a even spread of light to a certain degree. Also, I thought these lights help your black look blacker....it seems in my tests they have gone even more washed out, lol. I obviously have not been mounting it correctly.

So thanks for your response and hopefully I can get this figured out. I just received the product like 3 days ago or something like that..so maybe I can return it if it indeed comes to that and get the panelight.....that is if it is needed.

UPDATE: OK, I have tried both vertical and horizontal and it seems that it is impossible to get a balance of light on the wall surrounding the tv. Its always far too much at the top and the light is nearly nonexistent at the bottom and sides at all times. So with that said I guess I need to look into returning this light to cinema quest and getting the panelight dual fixture.

The idea with the dual is to have the two of them on both sides of the TV vertical correct?

Just to interject a comment...I am surprised companies have not incorporated a built-in bias light in their televisions (I guess the ambilight was an attempt). IMO, the light makes a huge difference and improvement, to the point of "televisions should not be watched (in the dark) without them."

The only problem would be the location and orientation of the light (not knowing whether the TV would be on a stand or wall mounted), and no way to move the light if needed. Probably best it remains an accessory.

I've long wanted to add some Bias lighting just never saw a light that really did it for me at the local Home Depot. (I have a JVC 61" LcOS 1080P set) I have room behind the TV to mount a fixture. In the meantime we use the warm lighting in the room behind, not ideal but a noticible improvement over a dark room.

I did a google of 6500k and found a bunch of CFL's!

http://www.google.com/products?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2007-12,GGLD:en&q=6500k+cfl&um=1

Anyone (George?) got any info on them? Any good? I did just check out the Ideal-Lume line, looks ideal but pricey for my needs at this time....

Look for any with a color rendering index (CRI) of at least 90. If the CRI is not stated, assume the worst.

I, too, really appreciate having been able to take care of my bias lighting needs with a few, simple mouse clicks. Thank you, George! Relatively speaking, the cost of the professionally developed and spec-meeting panel light set is very small in comparison to the flat panels TV's we're using. For the cost of a tank of gas, you can get a product that is engineered correctly, produced, packaged and shipped to your door.

I have the dual bias light mounted on the back of my wall mounted TV with double-stick tape. A few months ago, I had to change one of the bulbs and was able to pretty easily pry the fixtures off the back of the TV to change the bulb. To get it back on the TV, I applied another layer of tape since the first layer no longer held the fixtures -- a big mistake! I would like to remove the fixtures and set them up to hang from the back of the TV like others have reported doing. The only problem is that I cannot easily remove them from the back of the TV. Using quite a bit of force doesn't work and I am afraid to try any harder for fear of breaking the fixtures/bulbs -- they bend right now with the amount of force I am applying.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can remove the fixtures? One other thing that compounds this is that there is only an inch or two between the back of my TV and my wall, so there is not a lot of room to work with to remove the bias lights.

thanks,
Murray

Well, in theory heat should loosen the hold. Maybe a hair blow dryer if you've got one?

Can you see-saw a very, very thin piece of wire down between the tape and either the body of the light fixture or the tape and the TV back cover?

I would think a hair drier or heat gun would do the trick as mentioned above. The heat gun is more focused so might do the best job. But be careful, it heats things up pretty fast.

Funny how people will drop 2 to 3 large on an HDTV, but baulk at $40 bucks for an Ideal Lume standard (price of 2 DVD's?).

I love mine, it works extremely well. My first one had an issue and Cinemaquest sent out a replacement immediately, and I didn't have to hassle with sending the bad one back, they told me to just trash it--great service!

Funny how people will drop 2 to 3 large on an HDTV, but baulk at $40 bucks for an Ideal Lume standard (price of 2 DVD's?).

I love mine, it works extremely well. My first one had an issue and Cinemaquest sent out a replacement immediately, and I didn't have to hassle with sending the bad one back, they told me to just trash it--great service!

I also had a problem with my first set and Cinemaquest replaced it free and quickly. Great company. Will get my repeat business.

Any advice on in stalling on the rear of a 42" Panny RPTV? The cabibet curves down to where the bottom of the screen is on the front if that makes sense.

Would placing it towards the bottom give the desired effect? Figured it would give bad light displacement

Would placing it towards the bottom give the desired effect?
Such placement can produce good results. Much depends on how far out from the wall the TV is. You will likely need to experiment with placement a bit before permanently mounting the bias light. Use duct tape or Gorilla Tape to mount it temporarily as you try different locations and orientations.

I have been studying a book recently that was recommended to me by one of the Ph.D.s from THX, Ltd., when I was consulting at Skywalker Ranch in December. The title of this imaging science industry reference is, 'Color Appearance Models,' by Mark D. Fairchild, Ph.D., of the Chester F. Carlson Center for Imaging Science: Munsell Color Science Laboratory. Yesterday, I came across a section describing the perceptual phenomenon users of bias lighting experience that produces perceived improvement of contrast on their monitor screen.

"Their experimental results, obtained through matching and scaling experiments, showed that the perceived contrast of images increased when the image surround was changed from dark to dim to light. This effect occurs because the dark surround of an image causes dark areas to appear lighter while having little effect on light areas (white areas still appear white despite changes in surround). Thus since there is more of a perceived change in the dark areas of an image than in the light areas, there is a resultant change in perceived contrast.....Often, when working at a computer workstation, users turn off the room lights in order to make the CRT display appear of higher contrast. This produces a darker surround that should perceptually lower the contrast of the display. The predictions of Bartleson and Breneman are counter to everyday experience in this situation. The reason for this is that the room lights are usually introducing a significant amount of reflection off the face of the monitor and thus reducing the physical contrast of the displayed images. If the surround of the display can be illuminated without introducing reflection off the face of the display (e.g., by placing a light source behind the monitor that illuminates the surrounding area), the perceived contrast of the display will actually be higher than when it is viewed in a completely darkened room."

Thanks for the reference and the great quote. A key point here is the effect of bias lighting on the display itself. It cannot be of an amount that causes an increase in light stiking the face of the display. This is one of the very useful aspects of your IL...being able to mask the output to the level needed not to cause distraction nor too much light.

I was planning on getting a LCD TV and mounting it on a wall that's something like a hot chocolate brown. I've been reading this thread for awhile, and I know it's optimal to use a neutral color for the wall behind the TV. Assume it's not an option at the moment to change the color of the wall. How much of a benefit would I actually get from bias lighting? It sounds like it might hurt color perception in my case, although it would reduce eyestrain.

In color appearance modeling circles, browns are considered essentially orange. Incandescent lighting will make it look even more orange. Chocolate brown is only dark until it's illuminated by the bias light. The only benefit of bias lighting you will lose with such a background will be a tilt in color perception. All the other benefits still apply.

I read most of the posts in this forum. someone had the same problem as I: a yellow wall that cannot be repainted. in my case, just think a little-pale (very fresh) banana color.

someone else recommended going for blue-tinged lighting. I think George stated that most LED seem to be 8500K when they claim to be 6500K.

I presume getting an ideal-lume would not be a good idea. I would only create a lot more yellow backlight.

Would this be a good idea? any particular recommended vendors of something cheap and suitable?

(display will most like be the new pioneer 60"kuro, about 3' away from the yellow wall.)

quick advice appreciated.


/iaw

If you use 6500K bias lighting, it will make the wall appear less yellow than it does under normal room illumination. As the color temperature increases in value from there, the illumination will become more blue in spectrum. Yellow is opposite blue in perceived 'color space.' To make the wall appear less yellow, you should illuminate it with more blue.

Determining how much more blue is the dilemma. Most likely, just a slight increase in blue by using a pale blue theatrical filter gel over a 6500K illuminant will get better results than using typical "white" LEDs. 8500K would probably be overdoing it. When you say it's pale yellow like a banana, what part of the banana, the peel (usually pretty vivid yellow) or the fruit inside (almost white)? This will not resolve the fact that the wall is intended to appear yellow under normal illumination, when the TV is viewed with regular lighting rather than bias lighting.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I have a 37" Vizio on a corner TV stand. How does the IdeaLume Standard work when aimed at a corner?

Light travels in a straight line. It will work similarly to any other fluorescent light aimed at a corner. There is no reflector, the lamp is a tube lined with phosphor, so the illumination is very diffuse. It won't hot spot like a point source filament bulb, reflector spot, or flood.

So a bulb aimed at a corner will work just as good as a bulb aiming at a flat wall for improving perceived black levels when viewing at night.

You will realize much more viewing benefit than no bias lighting at all, but the overall aesthetic appearance won't be as smooth and even as a flat wall.

When you say it's pale yellow like a banana, what part of the banana, the peel (usually pretty vivid yellow) or the fruit inside (almost white)?

Benjamin Moore "Filtered Sunlight 2154-60". More like the peel than the fruit, but somewhere in between.

(Fortunately, I tend to watch movies only after my kids have gone to sleep.)

Any recommendations would be appreciated. Also, I may have missed it, but how much of a bulb should one put behind a 60" Kuro plasma display in terms of backlighting? I was thinking smallish, like 20W, but I cannot even guess. As noted, the lamp will be about 3' away from the wall behind it. Large room, though.

advice appreciated.

/iaw

Wattage only indicates how much power the lamp uses and has little consistent relation to lumen output. Our Ideal-Lume Standard model or equivalent would be suitable for your type of setup.

hi george---hmmm...I thought incandescent lightbulbs luman and wattage were reasonably closely related to one another that one could stand in for the other. so, Ideal-Lume will likely handle the kind of yellow that my Benjamin-Moore paint has better than the LED's that you tested (which had too high a temperature, around 8000K if I recall; can't find your post now)?

Suggestion---maybe you can post a range of colors where you would suggest going with Ideal-Lume, and beyond which one would want to go with something else. I presume a pure yellow wall or pure blue wall would be better served by other lighting.

regards,

/iaw

You said you read most of the posts in this thread. Incandescents are more red/yellow in spectrum, not blue. A 20 Watt fluorescent is far brighter than the same wattage lamp that is incandescent. Incandescents would make your wall look even more yellow. I have no idea how much blue you will need to correct for the yellow in your wall. Do you really expect me to know with any precision what color your wall is by quoting paint model numbers and talking about bananas?

I am not in the business of promoting compromised viewing environment conditions. My primary recommendations are to do it right. I know that following proper procedure will attain the correct results. What you are suggesting is ludicrous.

Use neutral wall colors and bias lighting that is as close to CIE D65 as possible. Then you will preserve optimum color accuracy in a video viewing environment. My products are verified to be D65, within SMPTE broadcast monitor tolerances. We achieve this level of precision through various means, including color correction via filtering. If you want me to measure other solutions, and your wall, for a custom application, you will have to pay me for my time. I suggested that you try filtering a fluorescent lamp. Various filters are easier to swap than light fixtures.

Your room is not designed for the best video imaging. Compromises have been made in the design, thus consequences to performance are inevitable. You can minimize the consequences by following my general instructions. The specific color of blue illumination you require is yours to identify and seek a solution for. Wouldn't it be so much more simple for you to paint the wall white and use a proven bias lighting solution?

I installed 2 "ideal lume panellight "( 1 on each side ) on my 60" Kuro w/ medium dark panelled wall behind it. It looks and functions great. Everyone who knows about biased lighting thinks my system works perfectly!

Ordered my standard Ideal Lume Friday.... should arrive Wednesday. Will go behind the 6010 (white wall so no potential issues as described above)....

Will report on the impact post installation....

Thanks, Alan; appreciate your info and direction on this option to achieve a better PQ and increase the investment we make in these large panel displays...

You said you read most of the posts in this thread. Incandescents are more red/yellow in spectrum, not blue. A 20 Watt fluorescent is far brighter than the same wattage lamp that is incandescent.

Of course. However, as far as I can tell, many manufacturers advertise their energy-saving bulbs (which have different temperatures) as "equivalent to a 60W incandescent." A 20W incandescent is often compared to a 6W fluorescent or a 3W LEDs (though the latter progresses so rapidly that this may be outdated by now). It is only in this sense that I was equating wattage roughly to lumens. I do understand that normal incandescents are very yellow, and that I do not want one. I really meant around 150 lumen. incidentally, when I looked at the cinemaquestinc.com site, I did not notice a lumen number on standard info sheet.

I have no idea how much blue you will need to correct for the yellow in your wall. Do you really expect me to know with any precision what color your wall is by quoting paint model numbers and talking about bananas?

Sorry, I thought a quick google on the name would provide the color sample. If you have a monitor that is color calibrated---and I presumed you did---this is trivially easy and instant. My paint is, for example,
http://www.myperfectcolor.com/Benjamin-Moore-2154-60-Filtered-Sunlight-p/mpc0005101.htm

Wouldn't it be so much more simple for you to paint the wall white and use a proven bias lighting solution?

I want to stay married.

Because I did not expect individual advice, I had just hoped that there would be a temperature range on the Wall paint color for which you would recommend your product, and beyond which you would recommend one look for alternative solutions.


/iaw

when I looked at the cinemaquestinc.com site, I did not notice a lumen number on standard info sheet
That's correct. I've never considered it necessary since there are likely so few consumers who could interpret lumen figures effectively in a bias lighting application.
I thought a quick google on the name would provide the color sample. If you have a monitor that is color calibrated---and I presumed you did---this is trivially easy and instant.
Frankly, I've never even thought of Googling a paint reference. Thanks for the tip. My laptop screen has limited calibration facilities but the image would be close enough for this purpose. If this was so "trivially easy" it would have been appropriate and duly considerate for you to have supplied the link from the start, don't you agree? The sample on my screen appears to have some red in it, as well as yellow, therefore, a simple blue filter wouldn't offer adequate color correction. There would also have to be a cyan component to counter the red.
Because I did not expect individual advice, I had just hoped that there would be a temperature range on the Wall paint color for which you would recommend your product, and beyond which you would recommend one look for alternative solutions.
What you had hoped for is not really practical. That which I recommended is still my best advice. I don't catalog other lighting supplier's solutions. The encounters I've commented on in this thread are only a few of those products that claimed to offer the right color but thus far have proven to be substantially in error. It's a chore for me to maintain products that do it correctly. If forum members want to locate alternate solutions, at least they can follow my explanations of the principles involved to achieve correct results.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

ok, I will buy an idealume. may I make a suggestion? I think yellowish wall paint is pretty common these days. if you come across a bulb that helps correct it "a little," please offer it, too. of course it will be compromised in such environments, but so is the standard daylight lamp. for some of us, it is preferable.

are there a few mounting velcro pastics with it? I want to try it out on 3 different TVs to see how much I like it.

/iaw

I think yellowish wall paint is pretty common these days. if you come across a bulb that helps correct it "a little," please offer it, too.
I'll leave such solutions to someone else. A 6500K bias light will already "correct it a little."

My company specializes in promoting correct imaging solutions for the segment of video consumers and professionals who value image fidelity and artistic integrity. Understanding imaging science principles, along with display industry standards and practices, enables me to offer suggestions to minimize the consequences resulting from compromised viewing environment conditions. As I said, filtering a correctly colored lamp is probably the most realistic, and cost effective, method for individual users to compensate for whatever individual paint choice they select in their individual display system and environment.

are there a few mounting velcro pastics with it? I want to try it out on 3 different TVs to see how much I like it.
We include enough Velcro to mount the product once. If you want to experiment before permanently mounting it, I suggest using duct tape or Gorilla Tape.

George...I own one of your backlights. Ireally do think it makes the viewing experience better, but I want o make sure that Ihave it positioned right. I have a 40 inch lcd on a pedestal. it is about 18 inches in front of a white wall. I velcroed the light to the top back of my tv so the light is facing the white wall horizontally. Is this the proper location for it. I also don't know at times how bright the backlight should be. Any advice? thanks in advance

HEELSFINL4 and pbmpharmacist

This is not really the proper venue for solving specific problems with my products. We support what we sell. Please correspond directly with us via our company e-mail or phone and we will take care of your concerns in an expeditious manner.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

HEELSFINL4 and pbmpharmacist

This is not really the proper venue for solving specific problems with my products. We support what we sell. Please correspond directly with us via our company e-mail or phone and we will take care of your concerns in an expeditious manner.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Fair enough. I emailed the info@cinemaquestinc.com address and I deleted my post as it isn't really relevant to the thread. Thanks.

Just a quick note:

For anyone considering Bias (back) lighting, I strongly consider that you buy from George and CinemaQuest, Inc. I have always enjoyed my Ideal Lume Standard and the support I am getting from them regarding an issue is highly impressive! Please support this company, you won't regret it!

Mounted the standard Ideal Lume behind the Pioneer PDP-6010.

Ended up rigging some hooks instead of the velcro which, so far, is working fine.

The adjustable filter around the bulb is a good feature allowing you to vary the amount of light shining onto the wall. Decided not to use the snap on plastic cover since I was adjusting the filter and found it convenient to leave it off.

Too early to assess the total impact but with regular TV (not HD) so far the colors do seem to pop off the screen then previous. Will continue to assess with HD cable and SD DVD (no BD player yet...).

Well I was going to order the ideal-lume standard yesterday but ran out of time. I could have sworn the price was $49.95 yesterday, but it's $59.95 today. Am I wrong?

I'm thinking I may just have to throw something together myself.

Prices have increased due to an accumulation of 2 1/2 years of incremental increases in our cost of materials. We held off as long as we could.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

....

Prices have increased due to an accumulation of 2 1/2 years of incremental increases in our cost of materials. We held off as long as we could.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Lol, just my luck. Got my TV on the 27th, a day too late and found this thread just in time for the price increase :p

My question about Ideal-Lume: I have a 52" Samsung LCD not wall mounted. From reading the posts it seems the Ideal-Lume Standard is enough. I'm wondering if the light produces a significant amount of heat? I'm a bit hesitant about sticking a potential mini-heater on the back of the tv. I know I'm probably being paranoid since so many people have reported great results with the lights...but having just spent about $2500 on the tv I'm a bit protective of it :D

Even the info sheet pdf still has the old pricing. :)

clue11,

Heat's not a problem. You are welcome to correspond with the company directly. We know a lot about the products we manufacture and enjoy helping our customers. This forum and thread are really not intended to serve as our customer help line.

tsanga,

Thanks for the reminder.

Hey, not sure if anyone cares, but I thought I might add my ghetto Bias Lighting setup with others in this thread...

I just built this cabinet for my TV so that it can store media, have a bit of space for running cables behind it, and room for the Bias Lighting setup.

It uses a couple of 100 watt equivalent CFLs connected to some ceramic fixtures mounted with l-brackets:

http://www.swiftbennett.com/images/4081/IMG_9563_wm.jpg

http://www.swiftbennett.com/images/4081/IMG_9564_wm.jpg

As you can probably tell from the images, they're not 6500K - they're warm to match the rest of the lighting in our unit. Easy enough to swap out later if I want:

http://www.swiftbennett.com/images/4081/IMG_9549_wm.jpg

http://www.swiftbennett.com/images/4081/IMG_9551_wm.jpg


The nice thing is that the bias lighting is connected to a wall switch - so no fumbling behind the TV to shut it off! :D

Hopefully you didn't block any ventilation holes on the back of the TV with the aluminum foil reflectors.

Hopefully you didn't block any ventilation holes on the back of the TV with the aluminum foil reflectors.

Of course not! Luckily the 4081 has plenty of wide-open space to reflect off. The TV doesn't even get warm to the touch with this setup.

I've got a quick question.

If the wall color was off white (ie, light beige) would a 6500K Bias lighthing be okay?

Thank you for your reply.

Your question has been handled multiple times, and in substantial detail, previously in the thread. The short answer is- it would be better than any other color of lamp commonly available.

Your question has been handled multiple times, and in substantial detail, previously in the thread. The short answer is- it would be better than any other color of lamp commonly available.

Just learned that you can actually search this thread for wall color and this question would have been unnecessary. Apologize for the dumbness. Thanks for the answer.

Installed my standard Ideal-Lume back light using the velcro strips on my PDP-5010. Light works really well. It really makes a difference. Watching tv at night is easier on the eyes. I really like the way it makes the black widescreen bars disappear matching the tv's black bezel, the light seems to enhance the black levels. Very cool product!

I'll be installing my ideal lume flat panel bulbs onto my Sony 52XBR4 tomorrow afternoon when it arrives. Any suggestions in mounting it or in calibrating? The TV sits about 4 or 5 inches off the wall and is titled slightly forward.

Our room is also painted lilly pad green if that helps at all. Any input on getting the most out of this device is greatly appreciated

Just study the instruction sheets enclosed with the product. Some experimentation is usually necessary to get the most even light spread on the wall. Attach the lights to the back of the TV and use duct tape or equivalent for temporary attachment until you find the best location.

Adjust the TV's picture controls for dark room viewing before using the lights. Then dim them with the rotating baffle tubes until you can match the same level of illumination depicted in the bias light level pattern displayed on the TV screen, from either an 'Avia' or 'Digital Video Essentials' home theater setup DVD.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

The Samsungs in particular seem to have a coating on the casework from the factory that resists removal by the alcohol swabs. It's usually better to suspend the light as we describe in the install tips sheet that comes with the product.

Anyone that has one of the newer Samsung LCD's using Ideal-Lume? I have a 7-series and would love to hear people's reaction/experience with the light on Samsungs. Any pictures of the setups would be awesome too. Thanks! :)

Video viewing environment principles apply equally to any brand of display. Human perceptual factors don't discriminate between manufacturers.

Video viewing environment principles apply equally to any brand of display. Human perceptual factors don't discriminate between manufacturers.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm asking...but okay.

I never even hinted that "human perceptual factors" are affected by manufactures. I simply wanted to know if any owners of Samsung sets had problems with attaching the velcro since it was stated that the Samsungs in particular seem to have a coating on the casework from the factory that resists removal by the alcohol swabs. If not using the velcro then seeing how it was attached/suspended (ie. pictures) would have been great.

Anyone that has one of the newer Samsung LCD's using Ideal-Lume?Request #1.I have a 7-series and would love to hear people's reaction/experience with the light on Samsungs. Request #2.Any pictures of the setups would be awesome too. Thanks! :)Your request for setup pictures is in addition to your asking for "reaction/experience" using the "light" an Samsung displays. Therefore you got the obvious response to the first of your two requests.

If not using the velcro then seeing how it was attached/suspended (ie. pictures) would have been great. Today 08:21 AM
It always helps to be specific. Thanks for the clarification.

Is there any issue in using the ideal lume during evening hours where there is normal room lighting (other than bulb life)? It is convenient for me to switch it with the AV receiver AC switching, rather than a seperate IR or RF sensor. I keep seeing this statement that the ideal lume is only for dark rooms. Wouldnt the light from it be essentially drowned out even with normal room lighting?

The only issue is wasting lamp life. Only for dark rooms? Apparently there is quite a lot about bias lighting and this entire thread that you have seriously missed. Please read this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

The only issue is wasting lamp life. Only for dark rooms? Apparently there is quite a lot about bias lighting and this entire thread that you have seriously missed. Please read this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

I did read the thread and the article. Please see posts 582 and 583 where the question was raised and answered ambiguously (to my thinking anyway). But thanks for settling the issue.

I fail to see how post #582 relates, but #583: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10335754#post10335754 , is anything but ambiguous if the reader can follow a simple flow of context. People interested in the technique of bias lighting need to understand the fundamental principles before they will be able to make coherent design, purchase and implementation decisions. That's why I focus my comments more on the fundamental principles, rather than specific, anecdotal applications.

Why would anyone reading a correct explanation of the technique, or my products, have any doubt whatsoever about what viewing room conditions bias lighting is intended for? Yes, it's for dark room viewing. Turn the regular room lights on and....SHAZAM!!!!!!.....the bias light is no longer necessary, or likely even noticeable. Therefore, to continue using the bias light would unnecessarily burn up its usable life. That would be a waste. Turning it off, or leaving it on, is entirely up to the user.

Hard to believe after over 1200 posts and numerous links contained within that folks can't comprehend the basics for this "option".

Despite Alan's attempts to educate readers of this thread it seems he is being attacked (or at least challenged) on this topic - mostly because he also provides the best product available.

The relatively small investment (compared to the price of the panels) is an easy decision if you have the correct viewing envionment to take advantage of the science (the site with all of the vision exercises explains it pretty well).

While I applaud all the DIYer's efforts, if you do not understand the total concepts of bias lighting, all you are doing is lighting up the wall behind the screen. Read the material; go out to the links and try some of the exercises; make a decision if this is a benefit for your situation or not.

Buy Alan's product(s) or not; but get the right type of light and apply it correctly...

:rolleyes:

I know I must sound like a curmudgeon at times but I'm just attempting to get folks to think for themselves according to basic imaging principles. TV manufacturers don't educate consumers very well on how to correctly use their products. The Imaging Science Foundation's leadership and advocacy inspired Alan and David to name their company AV Science and this discussion board the AV Science Forum. I was attracted to this forum by its name because I knew and respected the ISF's mission.

The principles of imaging science and display industry standards and practices are foreign to many home theater hobbyists, and they should not be. It's my experience and observation that equipment manufacturers fail to provide enough information about their wares because they don't believe most consumers either want to understand more, or lack the comprehension capacity. This may be true for some consumers, perhaps even most. Still, I believe it's the responsibility of vendors to inform users about the proper "care and feeding" of their products. Personally, I have more respect and loyalty to manufacturers who do this.

I suppose my approach toward consumers is akin to the old adage "give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime." Part of my background is in teaching so I'm prone to set out the fundamentals and challenge readers to arrive at logical conclusions rather than answer every little question directly. Sometimes this can be an annoyance for certain types of people. Once an individual grasps the fundamental principle of a technology or method, that understanding can be applied to a myriad of unique problems.

Many hobbyists tend to only focus on their individual system and fail to realize how unwieldy and difficult it would be to explain every possible application of my products for all the potential systems out there. I leave it up to the average user to put the mental work in for implementing bias lighting in their video setup.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Hey folks! I recently bought a house and have just finish resetting up my home theatre at my new house. I had just one question I'm having trouble with. Any help is greatly appreciated!

My entertainment stand has an open back to it and it used to open to a wall behind it. The Bias lighting I have installed on my 50" Plasma reflected beautifully off of the off-white wall and created a very pleasant viewing experience.

Now, in my new house, my entertainment stand is up against a staircase and the back of the Entertainment Stand now opens to half wall, half open space (stairwell) in a diagonal fashion. This is very distracting not only because the Bias lighting is uneven (only reflects off of the wall) but also due to the visual disturbance that's created by the diaganol staircase and half wall.

Originally I was planning on finishing the wall, creating an enclosed stair well, but I have been vetoed. I figured my last option now is to place a backdrop to close off the back of the entertainment stand so that the visual disturbance is removed and the Bias lighting has a consistent surface to reflect off of.

My question is, is this a recommended solution? If so, what type of Fabric or Material would be best suited for this application? - I would prefer to have the material be aesthetically pleasing while not viewing as well, since it will comprise of about 25% of the space (the other 75% being the TV) and will be visible in it's entirety from the back side of the stand while walking up the stairs.

I was thinking, Red Velvet would create a nice effect while keeping the aesthetics of the ET stand and room in mind, but i'm not sure the material would reflect the lighting well and the ripples in the fabric may create an uneven dispersion of light, unless stretched tight.

Any Ideas? Has anyone done this with any success?

Thanks for all your help!
Forts

Alan, is there any plan to produce a "slim" version of the idealume. Reason I ask that with the low profile mounts and design of some of the flat panels. Its getting almost impossible to do backlighting. Unless of course I do the rope idea which doesnt seem to appropriate.

For instance, the Samsung FPT-5884 has a sloped design which makes mounting the light combined with the low profile mounts impossible.

I was thinking, Red Velvet would create a nice effect....
This conflicts with what SMPTE considered the most important purpose of bias lighting! Please review this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

is there any plan to produce a "slim" version of the idealume
When you mount the current model of Ideal-Lume Standard or Panelight on the flat side, it's only 7/8" thick. Just how slim are you thinking? I have yet to encounter any rope lighting that is not grossly off-color. Everything I've seen and tested is either obviously too yellow (traditional type- especially when dimmed), or obviously too blue (LEDs).

On another note, there are scores of flat panel TV wall mount manufacturers and models available. Many are not as low profile as your case implies. You should decide what your priorities are. Do you want a low profile "look" to your wall mounted TV at the expense of image quality and viewing comfort? If this is your primary TV, you would be wise to consider the potential consequences of such a decision. Diminished viewing quality reduces the real experiential value of the TV and all programming watched on it.

I have no hesitation in insisting that wall mounting flat panel TVs is more fad and fashion than good imaging practice. In most cases (especially in ads and magazine features), the TV ends up too high on the wall and presents all kinds of additional expense, complexity and restrictive consequences compared to stand mounting. For some installations, wall mounting may be the best practical method, but that still doesn't negate the potential for viewing quality compromises. Each person gets to decide what's more important to them. I'm just not impressed much with fashion when it negatively affects image quality. TVs to me are more a medium of communication and entertainment than a decorator item.

This conflicts with what SMPTE considered the most important purpose of bias lighting! Please review this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

I have read this article and largely understand it's principles. I was just throwing out the red velvet because it is the most aesthetically pleasing before the TV is turned on and nightime viewing with BIAS lighting is taking place.

I understand your "teach a man" theory, but I'm looking for some suggestions on materials for a backdrop to the entertainment stand. I don't have a wall back there, so I need a consistent surface to reflect the BIAS lighting off of. At least, this is what I've come to understand both through reading technical articles such as the one you've provided, and perhaps more importantly, through my own visual experiments.

Now, i dont have a huge piece of velvet, or any other materials, laying around to experiment with, therefore i am in need of some more more direct guidance.

Since this is apparantly a major no-no in the world of BIAS Lighting, have you any suggestions for a material that would work whist remaining within the guidelines of the SMPTE Standards?

Thank you for any help you can provide.


To provide a visual, this is the entertainment stand and TV that i'm working with. This is no longer the viewing environment but should give you an idea at what i'm working with.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/1241/img0601kt5.jpg

Neutral colored (gray to white) material of your choice.

form and function dont always go together. I have a smaller bedroom that the panel is in so in order to get the largest I could, the low profile was the best solution. Its partly because of the design of the frame where it slopes to the back with an angle. I am going to try a few options and might post a photo so you can see what I am talking about.


Thanks for the feedback


When you mount the current model of Ideal-Lume Standard or Panelight on the flat side, it's only 7/8" thick. Just how slim are you thinking? I have yet to encounter any rope lighting that is not grossly off-color. Everything I've seen and tested is either obviously too yellow (traditional type- especially when dimmed), or obviously too blue (LEDs).

On another note, there are scores of flat panel TV wall mount manufacturers and models available. Many are not as low profile as your case implies. You should decide what your priorities are. Do you want a low profile "look" to your wall mounted TV at the expense of image quality and viewing comfort? If this is your primary TV, you would be wise to consider the potential consequences of such a decision. Diminished viewing quality reduces the real experiential value of the TV and all programming watched on it.

I have no hesitation in insisting that wall mounting flat panel TVs is more fad and fashion than good imaging practice. In most cases (especially in ads and magazine features), the TV ends up too high on the wall and presents all kinds of additional expense, complexity and restrictive consequences compared to stand mounting. For some installations, wall mounting may be the best practical method, but that still doesn't negate the potential for viewing quality compromises. Each person gets to decide what's more important to them. I'm just not impressed much with fashion when it negatively affects image quality. TVs to me are more a medium of communication and entertainment than a decorator item.

Neutral colored (gray to white) material of your choice.

George, thanks as always for your quick reply.

I had a few materials in min:

Tag Board
Painted Pine Board
Cloth

What time of sheen would be recommended? Glossy? Matte? In between?

I know your article speaks to this matter, but it's a bit diffucult to anticipate the light dispersion without the materials on hand.

Has anyone on these forums run into this same issue? I find it hard to beleive that everyone has a perfect wall behind their sets. Anyone with a stair well behind their TV or katty cornered set that has taken similar measures to improve their viewing environment to accomodate for BIAS lighting?

Thanks!

If it was my system, I would look at very coarse, medium gray, loosely woven cloth (to enhance ventilation). I just recalled you have speakers inside the cabinet. With that in mind, 2" thick rigid fiberglass board would make a great back up for the fabric and provide excellent acoustic absorption. Your speakers will sound noticeably better.

If it was my system, I would look at very coarse, medium gray, loosely woven cloth (to enhance ventilation). I just recalled you have speakers inside the cabinet. With that in mind, 2" thick rigid fiberglass board would make a great back up for the fabric and provide excellent acoustic absorption. Your speakers will sound noticeably better.

Thank you.

Yeah, the speakers are in the cabinet and, quite frankly, the sound in my new place sounds very hollow due to the left wall having an open doorway and large breakfast window that opens to the kitchen, wood floors and opening to the stairs behind the console.

If i wrap the fiberglass board in cloth and mount it to the back of the entertainment stand, I will acheive the proper backdrop and soundboard, but will lose out on the ventilation. I didnt really think of that, but it's plenty open in front and the backdrop is a good 6 Inches away, that I think the airflow would be sufficient.

That sounds reasonable, relatively inexpensive and completely doable. I'm gunna run with that and I'll report back!

Thank you!

You can get such acoustic panels pre-made online or make your own from "duct board" available at HVAC supply houses. Use 3M spray adhesive from any hardware store to attach the fabric to the fiberglass board.

Here we go again.....what it is NOT! http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14351277#post14351277
An imaging science advocate's work is never done.:rolleyes:

You can get such acoustic panels pre-made online or make your own from "duct board" available at HVAC supply houses. Use 3M spray adhesive from any hardware store to attach the fabric to the fiberglass board.

Well, after reviewing my sistuation at home and realizing the space is quite large, i've come to the conclusion that a 4'x6' 2" thick sheet of fiberglass is impractical and expensive. I'm going to go with a 1/2" sheet of plywood and wrap that in fabric. Even this will pose some challenges (ie. Hanging a 50lb piece of wood on the back of my console) but I think it will serve a better purpose than just stretching and hanging a piece of fabric.

The speakers are not very powerful and I hope to, in the future, upgrade to floorstanding speakers, so the accoustical qualities of the backdrop are not as important to me as the aesthetics.

Thanks for your input and I'll post with pics!

Like other posters in this thread, I would like to set up some sort of bias lighting, but am put off by the need to have yet another thing to turn on and off.

With USB ports becoming more standard on TV sets, I wonder if using a USB-powered light work.

You could use a switched outlet on the back of a surround receiver, if it's located close to the TV. There is a low-cost automatic switched outlet device on our web site. It is a high quality surge protector, power line filtering, multi outlet strip, with one current sensing outlet. The current sensing outlet has adjustable sensitivity, so it can be switched by a wide assortment of electrical components. When a device is plugged into it (TV, DVD player, cable box, etc) and powered up from an off or standby state, it senses the added current draw and switches on a couple of outlets. The bias light can be plugged into one of the switched outlets.

The device is small enough to fit behind most wall-mounted flat TVs. This can be as simple as turning on the TV. The bias light would then come on automatically. Of course, this means the bias light would be on every time the TV is used, whether the room is dark or not. The only USB-powered lights I'm aware of are quite small and would not produce enough illumination on the wall for effective bias lighting. There may be better ones, but not that I've seen.

I want to pick up a fluorescent fixture to put a 6500k bulb in to do this backlighting thing.

Looking through the catalogue, I see options with a magnetic start ballast and ones with an electronic start.

Am I correct in thinking I should stay away from the magnetic start so as not to affect the plasma TV, or is that not something I need to be concerned about?

This issue has been discussed several times throughout the thread. Get an electronic ballast. Also get a clear diffuser lens rather than the usual milky white, or simply not use the diffuser. My recommendation is to do more study than it appears you have done. The benefits will be limited if you implement the technique incorrectly for your individual system.

Thanks, appreciate the advice!

George,

What is the downside of bias lighting being too bright?

The pupil becomes smaller, so less light is allowed onto the retina. Therefore, detail in dark scenes on the TV will begin to be reduced perceptually. Some might think that could be compensated for by increasing the brightness control (black level) on the TV, but then that would compress contrast ratio in the image.

Another potential effect depends on room decor. If there are brighter surface colors in front of the screen, a brighter bias light level could start to scatter more light into the rest of the room, causing room elements to become more visible as reflections on the screen, or producing haze.

The SMPTE recommendation of 10% of the peak white produced by the screen is the result of extensive human factors research. Their findings have been tested, documented, practiced, proven and incorporated by other international standards bodies for decades. What happens if you try doing it another way? I think by now it's safe to expect you will probably get less satisfactory results.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Alan, thanks for replacing my ideal-lume bulb that expired prematurely. You take care of your ppl after the sale. I like that. I was wondering about the general public. Have I.Q.'s dropped sharply as of late. Let's see I spend several K$ on a display then want you to repeatedly help me figure out how I should "DISPLAY" the display and reassure me that the biased lighting is needed. Ppl, read the damn thread then decide if the nominal cost of the lighting is in your budget. Who dresses YOU PPL??? Again, thanks GeorgeAB

Please don't be too harsh on the impatient or low funded. I realize that this thread is pretty daunting to the casual hobbyist. I also recognize that some members of this forum really stretch their resources just to obtain a decent TV. I have expended a lot of effort over the years to offer quality solutions for the least cost I can manage, while still struggling to keep my company afloat.

Since becoming a business owner, I have had my eyes opened about what it takes to appeal to a need in the market. Far too many consumers think that most business owners just want to soak the public for their own gain. It's my understanding now that most companies believe in what they do and work very hard to meet a perceived need in the market with quality products and services for a reasonable return on their efforts. Thanks for your support.:)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/150040-10/essential_hdtv_accessories.html

I just installed 4 led light strips about 1 foot long and a half an inch wide on each side of my Pio 9G. I experimented with the ideal angle so that the light "bloomed" on the wall to the maximum degree (so it didn't look light a concentrated spotlight)......and the results are jaw dropping!!!

First off my wife was complaining about eye strain when we watch blu rays at night, so she insisted on having the light on. This didn't make me very happy, so I thought of bias backlighting. Not only is the set a joy to watch on the dark in terms of eye strain (you would be suprised how hard a dark room is on your eyes once you feel the soothing effect of bias lighting to compare to).....but the also teh already dark deep blacks just became impossibly deep!!! On an all black screen it is literally ALL deep black that matches the bezel:eek:. I cannot believe how this backlight took my already amazing set and made it one that will be amazing for years to come. You simply cannot get a deeper perception of black than I am looking at now. I realize how important the perception of the human eye and teh brain is!!!

Thank you for the great info. The LED lights are not yellowish, bluish, or reddish, just white...which I like. I do not know if it 6500 kelvin (probably not), but from where I was to where I am now makes me soooooo happy.

Look into bias lighting immediately.

Edit: I attached them using this industrial grade double sided tape. Neat and clean!

Following imaging science, display industry standards and practices, paying attention to viewing environment conditions, will always yield a superior viewing experience. Compromise on these issues (either knowingly or unknowingly), and the value of any display system will be diminished. Attention to detail in any system design increases the quality of what can be experienced by the owner. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Got to page 28 and decided to just go ahead and post..
As you all know the Mitsubishi Laservue's are 'supposed' to be out by the end of this month with the 73"ers to follow(around Christmas?). This 73" is the one I am looking to buy. Being a rear projection TV I will be placing it as close to the wall as I can.
I have a couple of questions. Since this is a very large TV should I use more than one light? Like, one on each side and one on top? If I go with this configuration do these luma lights have dimmers on them? Or do they have filters that come with them to where I just cover up the bulb till I get the correct effect?

Sorry if these questions have been asked already but If I kept reading I would have never gotten to this post lol!

Following imaging science, display industry standards and practices, paying attention to viewing environment conditions, will always yield a superior viewing experience. Compromise on these issues (either knowingly or unknowingly), and the value of any display system will be diminished. Attention to detail in any system design increases the quality of what can be experienced by the owner. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Thank you for bringing this often overlooked, low cost, high return tweak that literally changes the entire experience for the better! My $5000 Tv just became a $7500 set with a $65 dollar fix. I would have bought Ideal lume but i am in Sweden. Thanks again.

I was browsing for 6500K lighting to use in lieu of a more expensive alternative and found this

http://www.orangetreetrade.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=78_124&products_id=269&osCsid=tqumtvdrc3qcv8bt9llmrc4c96

I'm sure it would be inferior to a product such as ideal lume, and they naturally don't list the index of the product, but I'm not looking for perfect here, and the price is right.

I have a 67" DLP that I want to wrap the rear of with this piece, so I think either the 10' or 18' would be my best option. To get full coverage out of the ideal lume products would be prohibitively expensive for me.

Any opinions or experience with these products? Thanks!

It's worth a trial at the price, but don't be surprised if it's way too blue.

Thank you for bringing this often overlooked, low cost, high return tweak that literally changes the entire experience for the better! My $5000 TV just became a $7500 set with a $65 dollar fix. I would have bought Ideal lume but i am in Sweden. Thanks again.

I bought 2 ideal lume light kits ( 1 on each side of my 6010 pio ) and 2 replacement bulbs for around $100 from Alan. It was a tremendous experience in viewing. How can you not spend the amount for perfection? Anything less would do my $4500 Pio a disservice! Ray.

I bought 2 ideal lume light kits ( 1 on each side of my 6010 pio ) and 2 replacement bulbs for around $100 from Alan. It was a tremendous experience in viewing. How can you not spend the amount for perfection? Anything less would do my $4500 Pio a disservice! Ray.

See, I was thinking about doing the same thing as you but from reading here it seems as though that would be too much light. Actually, I was going to do one on top and one on each side since the TV I'm looking to purchase is a rear projection and I really cant put one in the center to illuminate both sides and top at the same time. Im just not sure about the whole placement of the light issue.

Is it better to have one on top (keeping in mind mine is a RPTV) or one on each side?

I'm a bit confused..

Claytonc,

I sent you a private message on 9/1. Didn't you get it?

Claytonc,

I sent you a private message on 9/1. Didn't you get it?

Yes, I did. I replied as well :)

I didn't ask for a PM reply, but for you to call my cell. Did you try that?

No I didn't call you. Don't take this the wrong way but I figured you where trying to sell me something of which I am not ready to purchase as of yet. I'm just gathering some information for when I do decide to make a purchase. A few simple answers to the questions I've asked would most likely prompt a sale in the near future. I've just recently put a few 1000 into the sound system and hope top it off with the long awaited Laservue. Seeing how this TV is only 10" thick and having a diagonal size of 73" I was curious as to the particular bias lighting that might be optimal for this type/size set.

I don't play games. If you want my help, call me.