I purchased a Bias light and I can attest, it looks great.

I control mine through a "As Seen on TV" wireless light switch. I plug a pass thru reciever into my socket and run the bias light through that. There is a wireless RF light switch that I placed by my couch that makes it easy to turn on and off.
Here are some pictures:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03419.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03430.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03408.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03411.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03414.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03417.jpg

I've been visiting this thread for some time now and have a few questions I hope someone can help me with.

I have a front projector (Mits HC4900) that I want to setup with a bias light. Of course I like to complicate things so I'm going to build a CIH screen (50" height, 89" wide for 1.78 and 117" wide for 2.35). This obviously means that I can only have a bias light on the top and bottom for 1.78 viewing. I know that this isn't optimal, but is it so bad that I should give up on having a bias light at all? I'm thinking of doing all 4 sides for 2.35 viewing if I can control the light for 1.78 viewing (with a curtain or something), but I'm open to suggestions.

Now for implementation... My first thought was a rope light but it seems that there aren't any that are really 6500K so that is out. My next thought was to use a side-emitting fiber optic cable being fed from a 6500K fish tank type light. Given that I don't need a color wheel or anything special I want to build the light emitter myself. Does anyone have any experience with this approach? Would the fiber optic cable effect the light's color? Any suggestions on recommended bulb type/watts/lumens and cable thickness?

Finally, the Mits HC4900 isn't know for having the best black levels and a grey screen is sometimes recommended to compensate. I'm thinking about making a Black Widow screen which I believe is about an N7.5 grey. I know that a properly configured bias light helps with perceived black levels, but how much? Can I get away with a simple white screen, a lighter grey screen, or should I stick with the N7.5 Black Widow?

I will be posting my screen questions over in the Black Widow thread in the DIY screen forum as soon as I have a better idea on what bias light solution I'll end up with.

Thanks for reading this post and thanks in advance for any responses. :)

David

What are your viewing environment conditions? Describe the room, please.

I don't play games. If you want my help, call me.

With all due respect, why is it you will answer all other questions here but I must call you for mine? I'm not playing games either.. I am simply trying to gather some information. I would appreciate your help but if for some reason you won't or can't post it here then I will move on to greener pastures...

With all due respect ... You are new here at AVS, and it seems, that this is the only issue that you have posted about. Maybe your inexperience is getting in your way. It's never a good idea to demand answers.

You were given an option that probably would work. An expert has suggested that the only way he can help you is by having a conversation with you. That seems like a bonus to me. :)

claytonc,

I have a 65" rptv. I use three led strips that I purshased from Costco for $29 (6 came in box). I have one centered on top and one each centered on the sides. I have them set for white. It's not a true 6500k as being recommended. My walls are dark red and I have sizable acoustic absorbers to the side and above my set. 3 strips is almost too dim but 4 is definately too bright. The benefit of these lights is that they only stick up about 3/4". The color is not perfect but I still benefit from backlighting. It would probably be better if I had the correct wall color and light color but I'm happy. On a prior set I just used a 24" flourescent tube that was close to 6500.

I am not 'demanding' answers! Dang guys, I only wanted to see what lighting would be best for a 73" Mits! wow...

claytonc,

I have a 65" rptv. I use three led strips that I purshased from Costco for $29 (6 came in box). I have one centered on top and one each centered on the sides. I have them set for white. It's not a true 6500k as being recommended. My walls are dark red and I have sizable acoustic absorbers to the side and above my set. 3 strips is almost too dim but 4 is definately too bright. The benefit of these lights is that they only stick up about 3/4". The color is not perfect but I still benefit from backlighting. It would probably be better if I had the correct wall color and light color but I'm happy. On a prior set I just used a 24" flourescent tube that was close to 6500.

DUDE! Thank you for a normal response! Thats all i'm trying to do is get some info/feedback..

Although your situation is much different than mine with the red walls, it still might be a viable alternative for me as well. Thank you for your response.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post...

With all due respect, why is it you will answer all other questions here but I must call you for mine? I'm not playing games either.. I am simply trying to gather some information. I would appreciate your help but if for some reason you won't or can't post it here then I will move on to greener pastures...
It is less time consuming for me to have a dialog about your system. As I said in my PM, I have questions to pose to you before I know how to advise you. Going back and forth in this thread with questions is too tedious. Right now I am at CEDIA Expo. Prior to this, I was very busy with preparing for the trade show. After the trade show, I am assisting with a THX calibration class.

I was willing to help you to the point of giving you my personal cell phone number. When I bill for my consulting jobs, it's between one and two hundred dollars an hour. Your stupid fears and suspicions prevented you from receiving my personal attention on a subject I have mastered. I am still willing to assist you directly with no hard feelings, whether you purchase anything from me or not. However, if you want my time and expertise, it will be on my terms. You have my number.:)

It seems that there are always people who expect that we should give more of our time and expertise for free, and do it at their convenience. The degree to which professionals share their time and experience here and on other forums is really astounding. I get people all the time that expect me to teach them step by step how to troubleshoot and repair their sets. It does not seem to be enough that we spend hundreds of hours helping people online and preparing the information that helps hundreds of other people if they bother to read it.

Fortunately, there are also the many hundreds of people that appreciate the effort and speak up to say so. That makes it worth it.

What are your viewing environment conditions? Describe the room, please.

Darn, I knew I left something out.:o

Room is 13'w x 21'd x 7.5'h. Walls are dark maroon, ceiling is dark brown, screen wall is black. Carpet is a neutral, not too dark. Light is completely controlled (bat cave). Projector will be ceiling mounted 14" from screen, seating will be below the projector (~14' from screen).

Primary reason for bias light is to reduce eye strain as I sometimes get headaches watching movies at theaters, secondary is to enhance perceived blacks and improve overall picture quality. If I have to I'll sacrifice image quality by using a non-6500k rope light to reduce eye strain (but I don't want to do that if possible).

David

Fortunately, there are also the many hundreds of people that appreciate the effort and speak up to say so. That makes it worth it.I think I've run into your great posts in the RPTV threads. :D

Davidy123,

I have discussed backlighting for front projection screens previously in this thread, at considerable length. Please do a thread specific search to review this information. You should also review this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm . It's very difficult to implement backlighting behind a front projection screen without introducing too much ambient illumination into the room, which will bounce back onto the screen and compromise your already insufficient contrast and black levels. It can be done, but the side walls near the screen have to be light absorbent. It's also very difficult to achieve the SMPTE level of 10% of peak white on a black wall. You would have to repaint the wall a medium to dark gray.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I just bought Ideal Lume lights from Cinemaquest and I have a question which I am not really sure what exacly I would search for to see if it has been asked.

I have the lights in behind the set about 6" in on each side. Pictures dont seem to turn out well but you can see the light seems to only shoot directly out of the sides. Is this how it is supposed to be? I kind of pictured light to be coming from all angles. Not saying this doesnt look good as is just trying to figure out how to best mount it.

It appears much brighter in this picture then it does in reality. Will I not get the benefit of biased light because of having a brick wall?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l269/vancouver_03/HPIM1785.jpg

Alan aka GeorgeAB, you have gladly given of your time and knowledge. I respect your expertise and just want to thank you. I've purchased from you in the past and will continue to do so. It's just a shame that "Some ppl" have-no-clue!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, Ray.

Honestly, sometimes not exactly with gladness, but thanks for the kind words and support. Such sentiments are genuinely encouraging.:)

I just bought Ideal Lume lights from Cinemaquest and I have a question which I am not really sure what exacly I would search for to see if it has been asked.

I have the lights in behind the set about 6" in on each side. Pictures dont seem to turn out well but you can see the light seems to only shoot directly out of the sides. Is this how it is supposed to be? I kind of pictured light to be coming from all angles. Not saying this doesnt look good as is just trying to figure out how to best mount it.

It appears much brighter in this picture then it does in reality. Will I not get the benefit of biased light because of having a brick wall?
Can you move the lights inward more toward the mounting bracket? That would possibly allow more of the illumination to spread upward. Other than that, you might also consider a third light mounted on top of the bracket.

Your installation should benefit in every way save ideally improved color perception. That is due to the wall color not being truly neutral.

Can you move the lights inward more toward the mounting bracket? That would possibly allow more of the illumination to spread upward. Other than that, you might also consider a third light mounted on top of the bracket.

Your installation should benefit in every way save ideally improved color perception. That is due to the wall color not being truly neutral.

Thanks...and yea I kinda figured it wouldnt be ideal becuase of the brick but my wife wont let me paint it grey ;) and I wouldnt since its over 100 years old.

If you can believe it I do have the lights on the mounting bracket! thats how far appart the mounting holes are on the 9G pioneer.

I took your advice and just ordered the third light. If I understand you correct because of the color of my brick i am getting all the benefits of biased lighting aside from color perception?

I have to tweek the brightness against the DVE test patern still, but I will likely wait until my screen is calibrated in Nov.

If I understand you correct because of the color of my brick i am getting all the benefits of biased lighting aside from color perception?
If the wall is not truly neutral, you still get eye strain relief, better black level and contrast perception, ambient light without screen reflections, but also slightly improved color perception since 6500K illumination is still better than typical household lighting (2800K). It's much more recognizable how yellow/red incandescent lighting is around the house for folks who use 6500K bias lighting for a while.

If the wall is not truly neutral, you still get eye strain relief, better black level and contrast perception, ambient light without screen reflections, but also slightly improved color perception since 6500K illumination is still better than typical household lighting (2800K). It's much more recognizable how yellow/red incandescent lighting is around the house for folks who use 6500K bias lighting for a while.

I totally agree. The company i work for developed a 6500k task light for your desk/computer use and I am constantly "wowing" people with the difference.

GeorgeAB,I have read through this entire thread after purchasing a Panasonic TH-50PX80U and have decided to order your product.I have the plasma on a TV stand that is approximately 20" from the wall.The wall is painted black and the TV stand and plasma are in a cut-out in my basement.The cut-out was previously a big sliding closet so everything fits perfect in there.I have 2 questions for you:Will the one light set-up be enough for a 50" and would it be ok to plug the light into the back of my Yamaha receiver so it will turn on and off with the receiver?

I picked up a couple of slim-profile (1" width) 14" fluorescent lights at Home Depot to put on either side of the rear of my 67" DLP. Unfortunately they came with "warm white" bulbs (listed as 3000 K) in a F8T5 12" bulb size (bi-pin). I know I want a natural light (6500 K, high CRI) bulb in this size, correct? Any tips on where to buy them for a good price? These are the instant-on, no flicker style of lights, so does that mean that they have the ballasts in the bulbs, or in the fixture already? I tried to glean this info from the product literature but it was clearly not meant for the technically savvy. I know this isn't a perfect solution, but my budget for this project is rather insignificant.

Thanks

Anyonebought from Cyron help me out a little.

I bough the 6 pack from amazon similar to this one:
http://cyron.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SCPB152.jpg, but there are no instructions on putting the lights on.

I know it seems easy, but do all I have to do is place one of those small stickers on the TV & those light clips on them. Will that really hold the lights on the TV?
Seems way to fragile, like one small bump & the stickers may come off with the lights crashing on the floor.

Does anyone use extra duct tape?

Will that really hold the lights on the TV?


They will hold. The lights aren't that heavy.

They will hold. The lights aren't that heavy.

Yeah thanks, those stickers are holding them tight. Just worried if it gets too hot they might peel off or the adhesive might melt.

edit:

Anyone knows what color temp & CRI Cyron has?
There is nothing on their product page on that info.

I acquired the product last year for testing and my GretagMacbeth spectroradiometer measured a color temperature of 7455K. Cyron claims this to be a professional product and "D65" on the box. The CIE x/y coordinates for D65 are x: 0.3127 and y: 0.3290 on the chromaticity diagram. SMPTE specifies a white point of D65 for video and allows a tolerance of +/- 0.005 x/y for broadcast monitor phosphors. The chromaticity of the Cyron product in my lab measurements was x: 0.2999 and y: 0.3145. That's a deviation from D65 of -0.0128 on the x axis, and -0.0145 on the y axis. My software doesn't calculate for color rendering index.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I see Ikea also has a product (Dioder) for Bias lighting.
However, they do not mention if they are 6500k or not.

It appears appropriate to repeat what I have mentioned several times before in this thread. White LEDs are natively way too blue. Of the many that I have tested over the years, claiming to be 6500K, they have ranged from 7500K up to 10,000K. I'm still waiting for a genuine 6500K LED product, and am eager to adopt such a solution in my line. All my repeated attempts to get an OEM to supply this target of white LED have failed as yet.:(

Found this neat little test (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77) to measure how accurate your eyes are in seeing colors. Thought anyone reading this thread might find it fascinating.

(I am proud to report that even with my absurdly near-sighted, aging eyes, my color accuracy was perfect!)

Found this neat little test (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77) to measure how accurate your eyes are in seeing colors. Thought anyone reading this thread might find it fascinating.

(I am proud to report that even with my absurdly near-sighted, aging eyes, my color accuracy was perfect!)

Impressive! Thanks for the link. I scored a 16. All of my issues with color discrimination were in the blue/green range.

hi guys , im all the way from saudi arabia

any ways i saw this topic and i got so exited
so i went to ikea (i think u all know it lol )
and bought these lamps and hooked them up

it took about 2 hours to do it

here are the pics

sorry for the mess

Final result

Welcome to the forum. How did you adjust the Ikea product to achieve the SMPTE recommended level of illumination? They look quite blue in your images. Was there any notation in the product literature that indicated what color of white it is?

Welcome to the forum. How did you adjust the Ikea product to achieve the SMPTE recommended level of illumination? They look quite blue in your images. Was there any notation in the product literature that indicated what color of white it is?

This is just a suggestion but would you consider getting a led light that claims to be 6500k and compare it to your product and post some pics and a description explaining where your product beats the alternative solution. Or you can send me a demo unit and i will?

This thread and my web site should offer ample data for such comparison.

This thread and my web site should offer ample data for such comparison.

I haven't personally read through the entire thread, but mhaster's setup looks VERY similar to the effect shown on your website. I have a calibrated monitor too, so even if he's off, it couldn't be by that much. You say the LED's look blue, which they clearly do in the first three pics, but I would guess that's because the background lighting in those pics is incandescent. In the last photo where there is no light source but the TV and the bias lights, I see only white.

I second cgreenlee's suggestion. Seems there's no harm in doing a juxtaposition?

Go right ahead. I'll refrain from re-inventing the wheel. The "harm" to me would be the wasting of my time repeating myself yet again.

thnx guys for responding

GeorgeAB:
i am sorry but i did not understand a word lol
all i know is that it is very white
but not blue
also there were no info about any thing
it has only the instructions

there is another kind in ikea
same lamp but it changes colors
blu-red-green

also the lamp is flat at the bottom
i think its for shelfs and stuff

so the installing was very easy
it fit my screen perfectly

the name of the light is : Dioder

it cost 215 Saudi Riyals
thats 57.3 U.S dolars
if u have any questions please ask

Please study the technique of bias lighting more thoroughly. Just putting some lights behind your TV is only part of the story. To realize all of the intended benefits you must follow all of the principles involved. The most concise description of the principles involved are on my web site: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm . The only reason my products are as popular as they are is because they follow all the best practices recommended by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE).

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A LionAV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

man i respect your work
but im just a collage guy that wants to make his tv cooler to watch movies on lol
plus ur lamps are a bit expensive dont you think ?

also im all the way from saudi arabia
i dont think you would ship them over here , would you?

We have customers on every continent but Antarctica, and, no, I don't think my lamps are expensive. Doing what it takes to provide the correct viewing conditions in your room enhances viewer comfort, image perception, the performance of your TV, video source components, and every program viewed on your system. The viewing environment is the least understood and discussed component of proper system design and setup in home theater.

man i respect your work
but im just a collage guy that wants to make his tv cooler to watch movies on lol
plus ur lamps are a bit expensive dont you think ?

also im all the way from saudi arabia
i dont think you would ship them over here , would you?

Its very hard to find proper lighting for this application. I think the price is very reasonable.

I have gone through this thread pretty extensively and I couldn't find an answer to question I have so please forgive me if it has already been asked and answered. Will backlighting from your product help reduce some flashlighting or clouding that is usually only visible when I'm watching in complete darkness or when there is a dark scene. I've read from a few people in other threads that backlighting does help reduce, if not get rid of it but I didn't know if that was accurate or not. Thanks.

SNSGUY

Your post is the first I've heard mention of this problem in such terms. What is your display type, and does it have an anti glare treatment on the screen?

Is there a certain amount of bulbs you need for a certain size of television? I have a 50" DLP and want to know if 1 will be suficient or do I really need 2?

You failed to mention whether your TV is stand or wall mounted. OOPS! I see now your TV is rear projection. One light should be sufficient, unless the wall behind is unusually dark. This has been explained numerous times in this thread.

Your post is the first I've heard mention of this problem in such terms. What is your display type, and does it have an anti glare treatment on the screen?

I believe this question was for me. I have the Samsung LCD LN46A650. I think it's called ultra clear. It's kind of like a semi gloss coating over the screen. I got a small amount of flashlight in the top left hand corner of the screen that is usually only noticeable with not other lighting present and it's a darker scene. I had read that backlighting could help with reducing flashlighting I just didn't know if that was a fact or a myth. I know that your product will help with blacks and contrast I just didn'tknow if it would do anything for any flashlighting. Thanks.

SNSGUY

There are plenty of beneficial reasons to incorporate bias lighting behind your LCD panel. Please do so and let us know if it helps with your "flashlighting" anomaly.

This thread and my web site should offer ample data for such comparison.

I was really looking for a visual representation. I dont understand the numbers. What is the return policy on your product?

Photographs are not a definitive or reliable tool for evaluating how a bias light performs or appears in a dark room. If you don't understand "the numbers," please don't purchase any of my products.

We handle every return on an individual basis. Such correspondence should be conducted directly with my company.

i would prefer you not to respond to question rather than read your "greater than thou" replies. I am done even considering your product. You just lost a potienal customer. I will try my hardest to dissuade people from buying your product whenever the chances arise.

I am done even considering your product. ... I will try my hardest to dissuade people from buying your product whenever the chances arise.You are allowed to discuss the merits of a product at AVS, but you are not allowed to attack other members.

If you haven't used the product, I'm not sure what you can say about a product to " dissuade" others. :confused:

You are allowed to discuss the merits of a product at AVS, but you are not allowed to attack other members.

If you haven't used the product, I'm not sure what you can say about a product to " dissuade" others. :confused:

nothing of the product but i do have some sort of knowledge on how he treats people. I am not going to get into this i will just bow out and leave the forum. Everyone takes themselves way to serious on here considering what the actual discussions are about. I will leave everyone to their twisted little world where they actually think that they are making a difference in real life. This website is based around Television and television equipment. I came here trying to educate myself and all i learned is that most everyone here is full of themselves.

i would prefer you not to respond to question rather than read your "greater than thou" replies. I am done even considering your product. You just lost a potienal customer. I will try my hardest to dissuade people from buying your product whenever the chances arise.
I provided frank, straightforward, honest answers to your questions. If you perceive that as "greater than thou," I won't attempt to counter your conclusions. You are certainly entitled to respond as you deem appropriate.

I have learned over the years that customers who have not understood the detailed and necessary performance data on my web site have trouble implementing the technologies successfully. It is better for my company, and the consumer, for interested parties to refrain from attempting to use such solutions without adequate understanding.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A LionAV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

i would prefer you not to respond to question rather than read your "greater than thou" replies. I am done even considering your product. You just lost a potienal customer. I will try my hardest to dissuade people from buying your product whenever the chances arise.

It's your loss, not Alan's

There are plenty of beneficial reasons to incorporate bias lighting behind your LCD panel. Please do so and let us know if it helps with your "flashlighting" anomaly.

Thank you I will. I actually ordered it a couple of days ago. So hopefully I will have it in my home soon. Thanks. I also wante to say I've noticed a lot of people getting frustrated and honestly pouting like babies when they don't get the answer they want from you or anyone else in this forum. It's rather sad. Geroge AB you have given us people a lot of information and knowledge that we may have not been able to get elsewhere. For one I really appreciate it.. Those of you that don't get the answer that you want should maybe go look elsewhere. When you don't think someone or someones are giving you the right info reasearch it. Don't tell someone one you want the answer and you want it now. I've been searching this forum for three weeks and haven't gotten answers to every question that I have. So what did I do i searched for those questions elsewhere. Every question that I have that someone can answer have always been extremely kind in there response. That is the way it should be in a forum. So don't come around thinking you can start a fight and come out winning when you don't even participate that much to begin with and don't challenge someone if you have nothing to challenge with, A.K.A KNOWLEDGE!!! Being smart and thinking you sound smart are two totally different things. Learn to respect the smart :D Again GerogeAB, thanks for this thread and your knowledge.

SNSGUY

Has anyone tried to Ideal Lume in a corner? I ordered the double and initially tried one on each end of my 50" Panny plasma, but my wife and I both agreed that it was too bright. So now I have one lamp centered vertically, with the light set to emit the lowest amount of light possible. The wall is painted a cream/very light tan color and seems to blend with the light very well.

I know a corner set-up--on a stand--isn't ideal, but it sees to work well. It throws light upwards into the corner and to each side, but because the TV is not parallel to the walls, the light on each wall ends, rather than gradually fading away. Each end of the TV is about five or six inches from the wall. The panel rotates slightly, so I'm able to vary the positioning a bit, depending on where we are sitting. The layout of the room dictates the corner placement of the set. Because of windows, doors, etc., there is no other workable spot for it.

We think the effect is very good--we have tried various settings for the light--brighter, less bright, etc., and agreed that the current set up is the most satisfying. I'm keeping the extra light and will use it when this one eventually fails.

George AB, does this seem like a reasonable set-up, one that might meet the 10% standard? It really is gorgeous and has drawn compliments from everyone who's seen it.

I provided frank, straightforward, honest answers to your questions. If you perceive that as "greater than thou," I won't attempt to counter your conclusions. You are certainly entitled to respond as you deem appropriate.

I have learned over the years that customers who have not understood the detailed and necessary performance data on my web site have trouble implementing the technologies successfully. It is better for my company, and the consumer, for interested parties to refrain from attempting to use such solutions without adequate understanding.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A LionAV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I have read through this whole thread and you do tend to be a little "abrasive" in some of your responses.That is just my opinion and I totally respect your knowledge.That being said,I would still buy your product based on the knowledge you have provided.

I have read through this whole thread and you do tend to be a little "abrasive" in some of your responses.That is just my opinion and I totally respect your knowledge.That being said,I would still buy your product based on the knowledge you have provided.

Woudln't you get abrasive to if you had to answer the same question a bazillion times because someone didn't try searching beforehand? I think that would get to any of us. But that is just my opinion.

SNSGUY

Abrasive? Sorry, folks, I know I get frustrated/impatient, and it comes through in my posts at times. As far as I recall, in every case where someone didn't warrant rough treatment from me, I've admitted I was wrong and apologized. I'm not a public relations professional, a 'saint,' or remotely without faults. Most of the time I tend to "wear my heart on my sleeve." In other words, I speak my mind and try not to waste time with generalities, euphamisms, or ego stroking.

There is so much random musing, unprofitable conjecture, and false information all over this forum, I prefer to state things simply, concisely, and move on. Frankly, I'm thrilled when people 'can't stand the heat' and have enough good sense to 'get out of the kitchen.' The way I look at it, public technical forums are focused on education, problem solving, and reasoned debate, not dating services or group therapy sites. There is too much hyper-sensitivity in our culture as it is.

Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote, "To be great is to be misunderstood." The more of a genuine authority one becomes on a given subject, the more erroneous thinking will be confronted in public discourse. Some people don't like finding out their opinions and conclusions are faulty and react with offense. No one can control what people think of you except the people doing the thinking. I endeavor not to worry about things beyond my control and don't lose any sleep over being perceived as "abrasive."

Abrasive? Sorry, folks, I know I get frustrated/impatient, and it comes through in my posts at times. As far as I recall, in every case where someone didn't warrant rough treatment from me, I've admitted I was wrong and apologized. I'm not a public relations professional, a 'saint,' or remotely without faults. Most of the time I tend to "wear my heart on my sleeve." In other words, I speak my mind and try not to waste time with generalities, euphamisms, or ego stroking.

There is so much random musing, unprofitable conjecture, and false information all over this forum, I prefer to state things simply, concisely, and move on. Frankly, I'm thrilled when people 'can't stand the heat' and have enough good sense to 'get out of the kitchen.' The way I look at it, public technical forums are focused on education, problem solving, and reasoned debate, not dating services or group therapy sites. There is too much hyper-sensitivity in our culture as it is.

Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote, "To be great is to be misunderstood." The more of a genuine authority one becomes on a given subject, the more erroneous thinking will be confronted in public discourse. Some people don't like finding out their opinions and conclusions are faulty and react with offense. No one can control what people think of you except the people doing the thinking. I endeavor not to worry about things beyond my control and don't lose any sleep over being perceived as "abrasive."


Maybe "abrasive" was the wrong word.It just seems like when someone tries to use a product other than yours,you seem to start questioning them about things that the average person doesn't know about.I think some people here think they can do it cheaper than your product and maybe some people don't care about all the correct specs of bias lighting and are just going for a "nice look"?I would only use your lighting because I know the specs on your lighting are correct and wouldn't waste my time trying other products.The price of your lighting is very fair so I can't see experimenting with others.There are people here who do not feel the same way as me and they are the people who get you all riled up: ).I have no beef with you but I can see where some people might not understand the way you come off some times.

As a small business owner I can definitively state that if a customer or potential customer has questions or doesn't understand something about the product and the business owner is unwilling to take time to offer assistance than that customer should look for the product elsewhere.

Biglen,

I welcome your perspective. This thread is a 'sticky' for enduring educational value and has become specifically focused on bias lighting as SMPTE Recommended Practice defines it. It didn't start out that way, but the moderator saw a need to clarify and narrow the focus of the discussion. He also moved the thread into the display calibration section in an attempt to avoid the less technically serious traffic over in the flat panel general section.

I endeavor to promote what is technically correct and practically advantageous in my discussions here, not defend my products specifically. Some discussion may apply to precisely how one of my products adheres to best practices. Often, I just refer folks to sections of my web site. When I question a post it is an effort to keep the discussion focused on SMPTE Recommended Practice. There are many times when questions are asked about my products and it may seem simple to answer the question directly, or sometimes I'll respond in a more generic or product agnostic fashion. Other times I'll ask that they inquire through company e-mail. I acknowledge that sometimes there is a fine line between self-promotion and simply promoting the technique. I likely have crossed that line at times but try to avoid it.

One element that may cloud the issue of my motives is the simple fact that no one else seems to care enough about correct bias lighting to offer a competing solution that follows the science precisely. When someone suggests a solution that fails to follow best practices, I'll challenge their recommendation on principle. If they haven't done their homework, they may look uninformed or ill-prepared to discuss specifics. They might even get defensive and/or offended that their post is being challenged.

I have never suggested that mine is the least expensive solution. It should be obvious to any clear thinking adult that having someone else build, package, market and ship a product might cost more than doing it oneself. This is especially true for a small business who doesn't have the advantage of enormous economics of scale as the likes of Home Depot or WalMart. I've also never suggested that everyone should be expected to adhere to all the elements of SMPTE Recommended Practice. What I have insisted upon is the fact that the farther one deviates from the ideal principles, the less beneficial the technique will be to the user.

This thread's topic is about standards. We are fortunate to have an expert in SMPTE standards participating.

"Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice)"

Maybe there should be a separate thread about placing a light, any light, behind display devices without regard to SMPTE. Those who aren't interested in SMPTE Recommended Practice seem to me to be off topic by definition. ;)

There are two valid interest groups mixed into a thread that was intended for one of those groups. :cool:

Maybe there should be a separate thread about placing a light, any light, behind display devices without regard to SMPTE. Those who aren't interested in SMPTE Recommended Practice seem to me to be off topic by definition. ;)

There are two valid interest groups mixed into a thread that was intended for one of those groups. :cool:


Excellent idea!!!

Biglen,

I welcome your perspective. This thread is a 'sticky' for enduring educational value and has become specifically focused on bias lighting as SMPTE Recommended Practice defines it. It didn't start out that way, but the moderator saw a need to clarify and narrow the focus of the discussion. He also moved the thread into the display calibration section in an attempt to avoid the less technically serious traffic over in the flat panel general section.

I endeavor to promote what is technically correct and practically advantageous in my discussions here, not defend my products specifically. Some discussion may apply to precisely how one of my products adheres to best practices. Often, I just refer folks to sections of my web site. When I question a post it is an effort to keep the discussion focused on SMPTE Recommended Practice. There are many times when questions are asked about my products and it may seem simple to answer the question directly, or sometimes I'll respond in a more generic or product agnostic fashion. Other times I'll ask that they inquire through company e-mail. I acknowledge that sometimes there is a fine line between self-promotion and simply promoting the technique. I likely have crossed that line at times but try to avoid it.

One element that may cloud the issue of my motives is the simple fact that no one else seems to care enough about correct bias lighting to offer a competing solution that follows the science precisely. When someone suggests a solution that fails to follow best practices, I'll challenge their recommendation on principle. If they haven't done their homework, they may look uninformed or ill-prepared to discuss specifics. They might even get defensive and/or offended that their post is being challenged.

I have never suggested that mine is the least expensive solution. It should be obvious to any clear thinking adult that having someone else build, package, market and ship a product might cost more than doing it oneself. This is especially true for a small business who doesn't have the advantage of enormous economics of scale as the likes of Home Depot or WalMart. I've also never suggested that everyone should be expected to adhere to all the elements of SMPTE Recommended Practice. What I have insisted upon is the fact that the farther one deviates from the ideal principles, the less beneficial the technique will be to the user.


Like I said,I don't have a problem with the way you answer certain people,but looking from the outside in,I can see how some people might take it the wrong way.Again,I understand what this thread is about,but some people might think it's as simple as throwing a light behind their TV.

If you see a problematic post: please use the report post button and let the mods handle it: please don't respond to it

Thanks

This thread's topic is about standards. We are fortunate to have an expert in SMPTE standards participating.

"Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice)"

Maybe there should be a separate thread about placing a light, any light, behind display devices without regard to SMPTE. Those who aren't interested in SMPTE Recommended Practice seem to me to be off topic by definition. ;)

There are two valid interest groups mixed into a thread that was intended for one of those groups. :cool:


Perhaps, but it is worth noting that the whole notion of using bias lighting came from SMPTE. We can also thank George for educating the public on the matter as well as making the best product available. While he has at times been a little overbearing, we should understand that he is trying to adhere to the standards. Others may find acceptable performance at lower levels of accuracy, but one should not get offended by attempts to distinguish between best practice and everything else. I think people need to just read more carefully and keed their skin thicker. People can have different priorities and still discuss things in the context of standards. Some of the pros may need to lighten up a bit, but others need to understand what they are trying to achieve as well.

As I have said before, it may be completely legitimate to deviate from best practices when an overriding priority exists in how the video system is designed and used. The real problem lies with the simple fact that most video consumers are 'flying blind' when it comes to understanding the inevitable consequences that result from deviating from best practices. Poor viewing environment conditions negatively impact picture quality, display performance, image perception and viewer comfort. This can result in real-world diminished value for the owner and user of the system.

If the owner of a video system wants cherry red walls, mirrors covering the wall opposite the TV, and/or fluctuating colored lighting behind the set, they have every right to do so. Many owners of TVs don't consider image fidelity much of a priority in their lives. This thread isn't for them. I recognize there is a balance to all things in life. "Purism," legalism, or dogmatism are approaches I endeavor to avoid. However, there is still value in adhering to and vaunting standards and best practices when education in such principles results in genuine benefits and increased value. Let the user decide. However, if the user doesn't understand the principles, no informed decision is possible.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Has anyone tried to Ideal Lume in a corner? I ordered the double and initially tried one on each end of my 50" Panny plasma, but my wife and I both agreed that it was too bright. So now I have one lamp centered vertically, with the light set to emit the lowest amount of light possible. The wall is painted a cream/very light tan color and seems to blend with the light very well.

I know a corner set-up--on a stand--isn't ideal, but it sees to work well. It throws light upwards into the corner and to each side, but because the TV is not parallel to the walls, the light on each wall ends, rather than gradually fading away. Each end of the TV is about five or six inches from the wall. The panel rotates slightly, so I'm able to vary the positioning a bit, depending on where we are sitting. The layout of the room dictates the corner placement of the set. Because of windows, doors, etc., there is no other workable spot for it.

We think the effect is very good--we have tried various settings for the light--brighter, less bright, etc., and agreed that the current set up is the most satisfying. I'm keeping the extra light and will use it when this one eventually fails.

George AB, does this seem like a reasonable set-up, one that might meet the 10% standard? It really is gorgeous and has drawn compliments from everyone who's seen it.
Your implementation sounds appropriate. My only suggestion would be to move the TV forward, away from the corner a bit more, to get better light spread on the side walls. This must be done with the understanding that too much side wall illumination might result in bouncing back to the screen. Care should be exercised in the process.

Your implementation sounds appropriate. My only suggestion would be to move the TV forward, away from the corner a bit more, to get better light spread on the side walls. This must be done with the understanding that too much side wall illumination might result in bouncing back to the screen. Care should be exercised in the process.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I'll try moving the TV out a bit more, wife permitting. ;) (She's had to live with my speaker set-up in another room, set well away from the wall for best acoustics. I can only push my luck a bit at a time.)

Here are some pictures:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Thug541/DSC03430.jpg

Very nice, does anyone know if the Cyron LED's can produce that same effect/color hue?

and with Bias Lighting - is brighter in fact better or there is an optimal range of Bias light one should try to implement?

compared to another set: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96098&d=1197072714

Thanks

with Bias Lighting - is brighter in fact better or there is an optimal range of Bias light one should try to implement?
If you had read the thread or checked my web site: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm , you would discover that the SMPTE recommended level for bias lighting is 10% of the peak white the display is calibrated to.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

If you had read the thread or checked my web site: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm , you would discover that the SMPTE recommended level for bias lighting is 10% of the peak white the display is calibrated to.

And how does one know if one is getting 10% "peak white" say from a different company than your product your trying to sell?

How can one practically measure it?

And, if you want to offer help, please do, but don't begin your post with a negative tone, nobody forced you to post.

Keep reading the thread (long and tedious, unless you use the forum's search functions) or my web site (much more concise and simple). The methods available for adjusting a bias light have nothing to do with my lighting products or anyone else's.

If you want to get the details on SMPTE's recommendations "straight from the horse's mouth," you can obtain the SMPTE Recommended Practices document (RP166-1995) directly from www.smpte.org, or it's included in the Widescreen Review special edition back issue titled, 'Imaging Science Theatre 2000.' That issue will save you at least half the cost of ordering the document from SMPTE. You can get it from 'Widescreen Review,' or here: http://www.goestores.com/catalog.aspx?Merchant=cinemaquestincn&DeptID=236157 .

It is recommended that a neutral color be chosen for the area surrounding the display to minimize skewed perceptions of colors in the picture. If you do have an un-neutral colored background, can you not calibrate the display so that the colors perceived are accurate even though they wouldn't be "true" compared with a neutral (unskewed) background? Or does this skew render the display "uncalibratable" due to some principal/phenomena between the colors themselves on the display being effectively skewed?

Also, given that the surrounding background color can't change, would it still be recommended to use bias lighting vs. not? The particular color in this case is a creamy beige.

If you do have an un-neutral colored background, can you not calibrate the display so that the colors perceived are accurate even though they wouldn't be "true" compared with a neutral (unskewed) background?
In theory, yes. However, not with any instrument. No calibration instrument can measure how the brain interprets what the optic nerve is sending it. A neutral surround, and electronic instruments, serve to remove the color adaptation variable of the human visual system (HVS) from the calibration process.

Any attempt to achieve an accurate perception of the image on the screen would require a visual reference for comparison. Because the HVS is so readily adaptable and unreliable as a standard reference, an independent reference is required for precision and reliability. This 'sticky' thread gets into some examples and demonstrations of how fickle human perception is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849430 .

A colored surround perceptually subtracts the same color(s) from the image on the screen. The problem one would face is, by how much? How much more "creamy beige" would you add to the image to compensate? The color controls in a well designed TV are red, green and blue. What combination of R,G and B would you mix for "creamy beige?" How about we just guess?

Could someone build a suspension bridge with a non-standard rule of measure? In theory, yes. However, the degree of difficulty and complexity would be increased significantly. So would the cost. If you want to enjoy an accurate image from your display, it's much more simple to follow imaging industry standards and best practices. If having a "creamy beige" wall behind your TV is a higher priority than preserving optimally correct color perception while watching movies, so be it. That's your legitimate choice.

If image fidelity is your goal, watching TV is not 'business as usual.' It never has been............and never will be. You can re-engineer the technology but NOT the human visual system. Professional designers and many women understand that they can't wear certain colors of clothing due to their color of complexion and hair. They also understand colors clash or complement in furnishing a room. This applies to what color mask is selected around a framed art print or photograph. The color composition of television images constantly changes. Therefore, the only color of surround that works for all occasions is neutral. A neutral wall also fits with any color scheme used in room decor.

Also, given that the surrounding background color can't change, would it still be recommended to use bias lighting vs. not?
See post #1267 earlier in this thread. This question has also been answered several times earlier in the thread. There are many benefits to proper bias lighting, not just improving color perception.

Thanks for your time and explanation, GeorgeAB!

I don't know if I missed it in this thread (it's quite long) but I've heard that Bias Lighting used on a specific gray will produce the best results. Now I don't know if thats right or not but I think it was the gray that photographers use for their camera settings. Can anyone provide some insight on that.

The best surround for video displays is a neutral color. Neutral is technically what will reflect all colors equally- gray to white. The Kodak 18% Gray Card is one such technically neutral gray reference, and is relatively common in photo supply stores. Kodak has been putting this product on back order in recent history, so it may be difficult to find. There are other companies that also produce an "18% photo gray card" product that is equally good. The shade of gray is a bit dark for some tastes, but it can be used as a sample that can be scanned by most paint retailers. Simply add more white base to lighten it to your preference. It can also be used to match fabrics, etc., if another background is desired instead of paint. However, the ambient light used in the vicinity of fabric samples may contaminate the perception of neutrality.

My company provides Munsell gray reference sample sets in multiple shades of gray (including white): http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_viewing.htm . SMPTE uses the Munsell Color Order System as their reference for surface colors discussed in their viewing environment recommendations document 'SMPTE RP166-1995.' Munsell notation paint is VERY expensive if ordered from them (acrylic lacquer), and not really suitable for walls. Here's a link to a source for Munsell notation equivalent latex paint: http://www.rpimaging.com/store/PID123 . The 18% photo gray card is approximately equivalent to a Munsell N6 or N7 notation.

The wall doesn't have to be a solid color. It can be less monotonous to use a pattern and texture of mixed neutral colors. A little imagination and innovation can make the wall behind the display more attractive and interesting. In 'Digital Video Essentials' Joe Kane depicts the walls in the animated section discussing viewing environment principles covered in a woven grass type wall paper. It features multiple subtle shades of neutral gray, a subtle pattern, and texture. A good point to remember in lobbying for a neutral wall behind the TV is that neutral goes with any and all colors used elsewhere in the room.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Thug541's pics look real good.

Gregg Loewen is coming next Wed to calibrate my Panny 85u, he's also bringing an Ideal Lume with him. I used a $20 lowes rig and daylight bulb to see if I liked the bias lighting idea for movies (I always watched in complete dark), and my wife and I now love it.

At Gregg's recommendation, we are going to set up the Ideal Lume at the time of calibration, so im VERY excited to see the improvements.

Anyone purchasing a do it yourself setup should realize that it will help with eye strain and can improve the black.Though, for the cost of an Ideal Lume, why not just buy the proper setup the first time?

Emerging from lurking...

Attached is an image of how we do it at the pro level. Disregard the fact that the equipment is no longer state-of-the-art...we're working on upgrading it :)

Thanks for posting the picture!:)

Anyone purchasing a do it yourself setup should realize that it will help with eye strain and can improve the black.Though, for the cost of an Ideal Lume, why not just buy the proper setup the first time?
This comment, and the current focus on neutral surround colors, brings up an important point. SMPTE's human factors research resulted in a number of key viewing environment recommendations. These recommendations covered a lot of principles and physical characteristics of an ideal color television viewing setup.

Most consumers become attracted to bias lighting for the reported eye strain relief benefit. Many AVS forum members also find the fact interesting that this technique also improves the perception of black level and contrast. However, the issue dealt with by far the most in 'SMPTE RP166-1995: Critical Viewing Conditions for Evaluation of Color Television Pictures' (from which bias lighting is derived) is methods for preserving correct color perception!

If anyone takes the time to read this entire thread, one controversy dominates the debate. That debate can be characterized by the questions, "Why can't I just use a different color or lower CRI of lamp, and why should I have to change the color of my wall?" Isn't it remarkable when discussing viewing environment conditions, that even videophile type consumers tend to compromise most readily on the very issue imaging professionals find much more important to the viewing experience?

This curious reality is why I encourage fellow videophiles to invest the time and effort to study the principles of imaging science, display industry standards and recommended practices, and human perceptual factors. I am reluctant to attempt 'pat' answers to questions asked by "drive-by posters" who haven't bothered to read much of the thread or follow any of the numerous links to supporting information. Anyone who really loves cinematic art, and wants to experience it in their home, will benefit from understanding such principles. Unfortunately, relatively few professionals in my industry have a comprehensive grasp of such issues. Joe Kane Productions, THX Ltd., the Imaging Science Foundation, and a few others, are aggressively promoting a greater understanding of what really composes a quality viewing experience.

Thanks for the paint recommendations George, thats exactly what I was wondering about.

Regarding your post about learning more in the areas of Imaging sciences, where should one start that pursuit?

Here's a list of educational sources in order of simple to more complex:

The leading home theater setup and calibration DVDs have tutorials that discuss imaging fundamentals. They can be rented or purchased fairly easily: 'Avia Guide To Home Theater,' 'Avia II,' 'Digital Video Essentials,' and 'DVE: HD Basics.'

A good primer is the special edition back issue from 'Widescreen Review' titled: 'Imaging Science Theatre 2000: Everything You Wanted To Know About Video But Were Afraid To Ask,' http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/isf-mag.htm .

My web site has a lot of good information about these topics: www.cinemaquestinc.com .

Here's a link to the public educational site affiliated with the Imaging Science Foundation: www.isfforum.com .

'Widescreen Review' magazine is a good ongoing resource for video consumers.

Print out this series of articles by Dr. Raymond Soneira of DisplayMate Technologies: http://displaymate.com/shootout.html .

The AV Science Forum is good resource if you focus on the "sticky" threads and FAQs.

Joe Kane Productions has a lot of good information: www.jkpi.net .

Of course, there's also the option of paying for formal training by the ISF, for two days of concentrated instruction in a broad range of fundamentals.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Just to add my two cents to this thread (I'm only an enthusiast, not a calibrator), I put up a Cinemaquest Panelight behind my 60" Pioneer plasma more or less as an afterthought when I bought the panel, after reading some of the positives of bias lighting here on AVS. Probably the best $90 I spent on the system. It clearly improves the picture in a dark room and dramatically reduces eyestrain in my otherwise pitch black basement.

I essentially can't live without them now, which is why it's fortunate that Alan has such great customer service. One of my fixtures went out on me and after sending an email at 7:45PM, he responded personally within 45 minutes and assured me a new fixture and bulb would be on its way immediately.

Do not hesitate to invest in an Ideal-lume setup, especially if you have a wall mounted flat panel display (where it's very subtle and elegant). It's a true bargain, considering the typical expense of A/V equipment, the cost-benefit ratio of bias lighting is off the scale, in my opinion.

Very impressed with the product and company that stands behind it. :D

oh yeah I forgot to post the pics I took after I set up the Cyron lights:
TV is a Samsung A650 LCD.

This pic was in pitch dark room with the backlight at zero & the camera overexposed to show if there was any black crush.
http://i36.tinypic.com/357mvif.jpg
It definitely shows how much it helps black levels.

and a few more pics:
http://i35.tinypic.com/2vubn8n.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/9lljzd.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2wf00tv.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/29pe07b.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/30clxnc.jpg

Please post this kind of thing in another thread. This thread is specifically about best practice for backlighting as defined by SMPTE.

Please post this kind of thing in another thread. This thread is specifically about best practice for backlighting as defined by SMPTE.

Which arent green and blue ;)

For very advantageous, scientifically founded, and thoroughly proven reasons: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849430 .:eek:

Thanks go to the moderator for editing this thread's title again. Perhaps it will help keep the topic focused in the right direction.

There is certainly room in the universe (and the AVS Forum) for people who like colored lights behind their TV. However, such practice distorts color perception of the image on the screen. The thread's title is intended to differentiate this discussion from lighting practices disruptive to image fidelity.

Here's another section of the forum where colored lighting would likely fit in better:
"Theater Room Items & Accessories
Discussion of parts and accessories needed to complete your theater. Lighting, Curtains, Seating, Posters, Tickets and other theater related items and décor. " http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=32

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion A/V Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well, it's more of just accent lighting, rather than bias lighting, since it's blue and not 6500k. I will be using two 12" cold cathode lights i picked up from the computer shop for 7 dollars. I am hoping to achieve a decent glow behind my 37" panasonic plasma. I am planning to put one on each side of the tv. I hope this will be enough, but at 7 bucks a pair, i'll get another two for the top if that doesn't work. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I haven't seen too many people try the CCFLs. If these don't obtain the desired effect, i think i'll go with the cyron LED tubes.
http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/f8/a3/3fdc_2.JPG

Thanks go to the moderator for editing this thread's title again. Perhaps it will help keep the topic focused in the right direction.

There is certainly room in the universe (and the AVS Forum) for people who like colored lights behind their TV. However, such practice distorts color perception of the image on the screen. The thread's title is intended to differentiate this discussion from lighting practices disruptive to image fidelity.

Here's another section of the forum where colored lighting would likely fit in better:
"Theater Room Items & Accessories
Discussion of parts and accessories needed to complete your theater. Lighting, Curtains, Seating, Posters, Tickets and other theater related items and décor. " http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=32

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion A/V Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Alan.Where do THEY all come from?????????????????????? :D

One more time: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14730903#post14730903

Well, it's more of just accent lighting, rather than bias lighting, since it's blue and not 6500k. This really isn't the right thread for your post. Check the thread title again. ;)

For very advantageous, scientifically founded, and thoroughly proven reasons: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849430 .:eek:

You know, even with all the "facts" having a yellow-ish light looked better than using the white light on my set. I never saw anything that would make the colors on screen look different & the look was more pleasing & added better contrast imho.

Maybe it's because the color on my wall that doesn't match 6500k?

I like rounding pi to 3. I know that 3.1415926 is more precise, but I am just as happy with 3. Maybe I'll go post the results of my calculations in a math forum just to show the people that prefer to operate with more precision that there is another perspective. I just like it that way, and really, why should I care otherwise.

In fact, maybe tonight I'll get smashed and get out my Roger McGuire blue glasses, turn the tint all the way to one side and watch Jabberwocky, then take some pix and post them here.

Maybe it's because the color on my wall that doesn't match 6500k?
If your wall is blue, that could be the case. Yellow is minus blue in color space, so a yellow bias light theoretically could correct the wall color in the right direction. The most reliable method to provide the right ambient light for bias lighting is to use the correct illumination to start with, on a neutral wall. If image fidelity is the goal, personal preference has to take a back seat to standards.

Link (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407)
I bought the linked LED light strips for putting behind my 9G Pio. I am in Sweden, so I couldn't get the real thing (Ideal Lume), but I came across this DIY solution that actually works great! I know it's not 6500k, so not ideal. But out of curiosity, could anyone give me a ballpark to what the color temperature of these white LED strips are? They look to be white, not ovelry bluish or reddish or yellowish to the eye. If anything they are probably a bit cool to the eye. But I would guess that they are around 3500-5000k. Any guesses?

Also, there isn't a high tech sticker you can buy that is 6500k, that in effect is like a 6500k filter that the light would pass through?? I could put these stickers over my LED strips.

If your wall is blue, that could be the case. Yellow is minus blue in color space, so a yellow bias light theoretically could correct the wall color in the right direction. The most reliable method to provide the right ambient light for bias lighting is to use the correct illumination to start with, on a neutral wall. If image fidelity is the goal, personal preference has to take a back seat to standards.

George,

I was just in your web site trying to find out what color the wall behind the TV should be. I can't locate that information. I know I read someplace before that it should be a dark grey, possibly a charcoal grey.

I anticipate painting the wall a charcoal gray. Can you confirm that the wall behind the HDTV should be a dark grey for your bias lighting system to work best?

If it matters the entertainment center is black. The wall the HDTV is against is about 12 feet wide and the other walls in the room would be a light blue color.

So would a flat, dark, charcoal grey be okay to use?

Thanks,

Jim

gamelover360,

The Ikea Dioder product is about 5200K. It could potentially be corrected to 6500K with the right shade of blue theatrical gel wrapped around it. You would need instrumentation to verify the results.

Jim_In_Boston,

Charcoal gray is very difficult to illuminate. A medium to lighter gray to white works better, generally. Use a non-reflective finish or surface. See post #1331. It would be better for the rest of the room surfaces to be dark, to reduce the potential for screen reflections and the wall behind your TV to be lighter: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13966345#post13966345 .

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

gamelover360,

The Ikea Dioder product is about 5200K. It could potentially be corrected to 6500K with the right shade of blue theatrical gel wrapped around it. You would need instrumentation to verify the results.

Jim_In_Boston,

Charcoal gray is very difficult to illuminate. A medium to lighter gray to white works better, generally. Use a non-reflective finish or surface. See post #1331. I would be better for the rest of the room surfaces to be dark, to reduce the potential for screen reflections and a the one behind your TV to be lighter: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13966345#post13966345 .

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Any idea where I could get blue theatrical gel? Thanks.

Try Google. I get them from a theatrical supply in Denver. Joe Kane has recommended GAM brand to me in the past, so that's what brand I've used ever since.

Try Google. I get them from a theatrical supply in Denver. Joe Kane has recommended GAM brand to me in the past, so that's what brand I've used ever since.

Link (http://www.gamonline.com/)

That link brings you to a GAM product page where I purchased a Cinefilter, the 4th one down (1516 .6nd). It says it will convert
3200k--> 3460k
5600k--->6490k
2970k--->3200k
4940---->5600k

Hopefully this will at least get me a little closer. Thanks George.

Any chance of SMPTE wall sconce source/availability for home theater use ?

How would you install such a solution if it was available?

That link brings you to a GAM product page where I purchased a Cinefilter, the 4th one down (1516 .6nd). It says it will convert
3200k--> 3460k
5600k--->6490k
2970k--->3200k
4940---->5600k

Hopefully this will at least get me a little closer. Thanks George.

Just had a look at the different gels - very interesting indeed. It would however seem that the Neutral Density 1517 product would get you most closely to 6500K. Either way, you're looking at more than a single 4-pack of Dioder to light up your surrounding, accounting for the light loss in the gel.

It might be interesting trying out the blue gel no. 1532, as it seems to do the required correction, while still passing through enough light to actually be usable with the Ikea product.

The Ideal-Lume panelight is already way brighter than the Dioder, so you might wanna get more than one pack.

Best regards
Kim

Our work with color correction by way of these type of filters has revealed mixed results over the years. Be advised that the figures quoted by the various filter manufacturers for Kelvin performance are not as precise as the uninitiated reader might assume. Filters can also really screw up the spectral power distribution of the original illuminant. It's always best to verify the results with a spectroradiometer type instrument.

Kim brings up another issue with LEDs. They don't compete well with fluorescents when it comes to lumen output per dollar, and also it's more difficult to get the illumination to spread out as evenly.

Just had a look at the different gels - very interesting indeed. It would however seem that the Neutral Density 1517 product would get you most closely to 6500K. Either way, you're looking at more than a single 4-pack of Dioder to light up your surrounding, accounting for the light loss in the gel.

It might be interesting trying out the blue gel no. 1532, as it seems to do the required correction, while still passing through enough light to actually be usable with the Ikea product.

The Ideal-Lume panelight is already way brighter than the Dioder, so you might wanna get more than one pack.

Best regards
Kim

I e-mailed GAM when I realized that I had ordered a filter that was probably not the ideal choice (more for light reduction and less for changing color temp). They recommended 1534 or 1532....so I went with 1534.

I currently have a 4 pack of the led light strips (one strip on each side of the TV), and they are BRIGHT. I couldn't imagine wanting a backlight any brighter. In fact the DVE Blu ray has a test pattern for the recomended intensity of the video bias lighting, and that pattern is much less bright than my current solution. So this filter reduces the light intensity somewhat, but mainly alters the color temperature upwards.

I am excited to try it out, as the current setup is real nice, but appears slightly too bright and slightly too cool.....so hopefully this filter will be address both issues.

Of course if Ideal Lume shipped to Sweden I would have gotten the precise solution from day one and taken the guesswork out of it. That's all I can do is "guess", but even this guess has shown a marked improvement.

Jim_In_Boston,

Charcoal gray is very difficult to illuminate. A medium to lighter gray to white works better, generally. Use a non-reflective finish or surface. See post #1331. It would be better for the rest of the room surfaces to be dark, to reduce the potential for screen reflections and the wall behind your TV to be lighter: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13966345#post13966345 .

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

George,

Thanks for the info. Your advice is opposite of what I thought I should do. My idea was to have the wall behind the display dark so the HDTV would appear to float. Except for the bias light very little lights will be on in the rest of the room. So I expect very little if any screen reflections.

I know you have much more knowledge about this then I do so I will check out all of your ideas. I guess I can try a medium grey instead of the dark charcoal.

"Use a non-reflective finish or surface". I will use a flat paint or egg shell.

To all of the guys that contribute to the forum, THANK YOU for all the information and ideas.

George, I already know I will buy my bias lighting from CinemaQuest, Inc. I figure with what a great HDTV cost why should I settle for less the the best in bias lighting.


Jim

pic of recently installed ideal-lume standard bias light. this light made a difference with contrast and color perception .

pic of recently installed ideal-lume standard bias light. this light made a difference with contrast and color perception .

Can you show a picture of the back? You have a nice light spread and I curious to know how you accomplished that.

Thanks.

Can you show a picture of the back? You have a nice light spread and I curious to know how you accomplished that.

Thanks.

Thank You, i will post some pics of how connect the light. bacically i cutted a wire hanger and made two rods with a loop to hook into the vents behind t he tv. i place the light horizontally into the wire loops.
I used the ambient light test pattern on dve blu ray basics to adjust the light.

Can you show a picture of the back? You have a nice light spread and I curious to know how you accomplished that.

Thanks.

Here are the pics of how light is connected.

How would you install such a solution if it was available?

I plan to install them they are in an HT environment. Just to be consistent with the back lighting. Maybe overkill and have little to no effect.

SMPTE RP166 doesn't specifically discuss wall sconce type lighting. In most typical applications of wall sconces, they should be switched off during critical viewing of a TV or projector.

Any area lighting used during a program should be installed in a manner that will not contaminate the image on the screen. Recessed canister lights in the ceiling that point straight down work well. Louvered, rope, or LED walkway lights can help with navigation in and out of the room. Wall sconces mounted on the wall behind the TV, adjustable for the right level of brightness (without shining directly into the eyes of the audience), of the correct color temperature, could work as bias lighting and provide some ambient lighting into the room.

The best illuminant to use elsewhere in the viewing environment while viewing programs should follow the SMPTE recommendation of as near CIE D65 as possible. I have yet to find anything more practical over all than 6500K fluorescents with a high color rendering index.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

gamelover360,

You are the man!!!!!! I went to IKEA this weekend and bought those diode lights. These lights are perfect. They are really , really small for the ultimate clean install. And they put enough light to backlight my pioneer 141.


Great IDEA!!! , Thanx again.

Check out my pics of the diodes on my 141 at the link.

gamelover360,

You are the man!!!!!! I went to IKEA this weekend and bought those diode lights. These lights are perfect. They are really , really small for the ultimate clean install. And they put enough light to backlight my pioneer 141.


Great IDEA!!! , Thanx again.

Check out my pics of the diodes on my 141 at the link.

They look very dim to me.I don't know why people are messing with alternatives to George's product.Get off your wallet's and buy the "right" product for the job.To me,it's like trying to put a silk shirt on a pig.

They look very dim to me.I don't know why people are messing with alternatives to George's product.Get off your wallet's and buy the "right" product for the job.To me,it's like trying to put a silk shirt on a pig.



I know , they look dim in the pics but i suck at taking pictures and they do not do justice. They actually are brighter than that. I have Georges product. I have two of the standard sticks and tried them and honestly couldnt tell the difference. My wall isnt exactly the right color. And im not changing the wall color to a shade of grey. I have a flat panel not a dedicated home theater and these diodes are perfect for the setup im trying to achieve.

Georges product is a good product , but its big compared to the diodes and alot more noticable behind the panel.

Just ordered the Ideal Lume Standard and can't wait to get it. I plan on hanging it on hooks to the back of my Panasonic 50px80u. Setting up the correct brightness confuses me a bit right now, but I'm sure everything will work out. Glad to have this thread with George available to answer questions.

I have some questions regarding bias lighting for my 42" Vizio XVT.

I am considering the Ideal-Lume, and whether one unit will be adequate. I know this is a loaded question but any considerations would be appreciated.

I am considering setting up bias lighting for two TVs in the house. This 42" and my father's 58" Panasonic.

Are the ideal-lume panel lighting essentially two standards? Could I buy it and use one for the 42" and one for the 58"?

Attached is the current setup of the 42" Vizio XVT. So far I have calibrated using the THX disc for brightness, contrast and sharpness, the remaining settings were taken from CNET's calibration of the 47" XVT. Depending on whether a PS3 becomes part of my system I may purchase a more thorough calibration disc such as DVE blueray.

Note that I have not yet adjusted my center speaker from its original position for a 32". I realize my backing isn't ideal with the framing and louvers. I also assume that the speaker sitting on the top of the TV would also prevent the complete surrounding of bias lighting. The center speaker does not support it self, hence leaning on the TV. If required I could make something to support the speaker and raise it above the TV.

Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated.

Daniel

The Panelight model is indeed 2 Standard models (without spare lamps), but with linking cables and different installation instructions. Both TVs should only require one light. You don't need to move your center speaker.

For those are are leasing an appartment and are unable to paint the wall in a neutral color, What can be done to achievement the 10% bias lighting neccesssary when all my walls have a super reflective surface ?(white).

I am using a Hitachi RP CRT 51F500 Chassis DP 23. Room is pitch black at night. All walls are white including the window curtains.

I believe most renters have white walls. That's been my experience over the years. White is neutral. To adjust the output illumination, simply block or filter some of the light. We stopped using neutral density filter gels because they were never truly neutral, contaminating the light from the lamp. Our products use an adjustable baffle that works like a rotating shutter. This method essentially forms a varying aperture along the length of the lamp.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I believe most renters have white walls. That's been my experience over the years. White is neutral. To adjust the output illumination, simply block or filter some of the light. We stopped using neutral density filter gels because they were never truly neutral, contaminating the light from the lamp. Our products use an adjustable baffle that works like a rotating shutter. This method essentially forms a varying aperture along the length of the lamp.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

George, If your site didn't look so amateurish, you might sell more. I am sure i can do 10x better with a pre-made template on the web.

Note : Didn't mean to sound harsh. if you want me to fix it for you temporatly until you guys come back, Let me know it will be my pleasure.

The Panelight model is indeed 2 Standard models (without spare lamps), but with linking cables and different installation instructions. Both TVs should only require one light. You don't need to move your center speaker.

Thank you for the clarification and mentioning that the speaker position is ok.

Symtex,

You could more appropriately send me an e-mail about your concerns.

after reading through this thread, i decided to embark on a bias lighting hunt. i first ended up buying an ikea linear fluorescent lighting ballast. the light was great but the color was far too yellow. my fix was to get a daylight bulb rated for a 6500k temp. living in canada limited my choices so i had to have it delivered from the states. the price increased considerably.

i then began to look for an alternative here in canada that i could order from. turns out that amre supply fit the bill but not in the bulb specification (the ikea ballast was an f13t5). they did however have an f15t8/d (d for daylight which=6500k or thereabouts) after searching the web, i came across a fixture from canadian tire that was an f15t8 specification. BINGO! the light supply store had to order the bulb in as it was out of stock. From my previous searching, i knew that petstore had an aquarium light rated for 6700k...close enough for me. now i have a great little setup for 40 bucks. Also, i found on the web a bulb of the same size specification that is 6500k and has a cri rating of 98!!! i will be getting this from now on but for now i am very content.

thought i'd share my story with anyone here who is in canada (toronto specifically) who is looking into a local alternative to online shopping. cheers!

Here's my installation of the Ideal-Lume Standard behind my Panasonic 50px80u:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3329/dsci0001pc2.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0001pc2.jpg) http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/8195/dsci0003xt1.th.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0003xt1.jpg) http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3990/dsci0004sp4.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0004sp4.jpg) http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1786/dsci0005mi8.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0005mi8.jpg) http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3612/dsci0015zz2.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0015zz2.jpg) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1598/dsci0013ue8.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsci0013ue8.jpg)

I initially installed it this way (light facing down), and then tried it the way snoopgt has it (light facing wall w/ hanger wires holding it up; post #1366). I felt that with the light facing the wall the uneven light output from either the top or the bottom was too distracting for my viewing, even while darkening it as much as possible with the adjustable slider. I then reinstalled it with the light facing down and get a more even light dispersion; and when I move the adjustable slider around it actually dims/increases the light output evenly. The velcro holds a lot better this way too, so no extra effort or tools are needed beyond what is provided in the original package from CinemaQuest. They did provide installation tips, although I personally would have enjoyed picture examples since I am a visual person, either on their website or in the installation tips. It may not seem like rocket science, but I hate to set things up incorrectly.

So far I definitely notice less eye-strain; however, I am not noticing the deeper perceived black levels, which is one of the things I am really hoping for (can still easily notice the difference between a black-bar and the black tv bezel)...maybe I am hoping for too much, the blacks aren't bad on this tv, but the darker the better. I do not have any backlight set-up dvd's (DVE/Avia), so the <10% level may not be accurate. Perhaps I need to allow more light to come through, revise my installation, or just sit down and watch tv for a longer period of time to take note of the benefits further. In addition, the lack of a completely neutral wall may have diminished the effects (the window w/ blinds behind the tv may be throwing things off). It does look pretty cool regardless. I'll post some more pictures with actual tv/video game/movie viewing shortly.

*Edit: I switched the light to face upward with better results. Perceived black levels are vastly improved, although it is a tad brighter than I like. I believe this is because the light "travels" up the blinds, thus spreading the light futher than it should..

Try get a hold of a THX DVD, monsters Inc, starwars etc and use the setup calibration to adjust your brightness and contrast.

Make sure to do your calibration in you actual viewing environment(dark with ideal lume on). This should make the blacks significantly darker than before ideal lume.

Another better option is to get avia II or DVE. The most affordible option is to get netflix (if you don't already have it) and borrow them. You will need to pick up a set of lee filters though if you are interested in calibrating color/tint aswell. These filters are less than $10. The bat part is netflix has a two week free trail so if all you want is the calibration DVDs use them during the free trial at no cost.

Daniel

I was browsing for 6500K lighting to use in lieu of a more expensive alternative and found this

http://www.orangetreetrade.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=78_124&products_id=269&osCsid=tqumtvdrc3qcv8bt9llmrc4c96

I'm sure it would be inferior to a product such as ideal lume, and they naturally don't list the index of the product, but I'm not looking for perfect here, and the price is right.

I have a 67" DLP that I want to wrap the rear of with this piece, so I think either the 10' or 18' would be my best option. To get full coverage out of the ideal lume products would be prohibitively expensive for me.

Any opinions or experience with these products? Thanks!

I also purchased the "pure white" led rope light with 2" spacing from orangetreetrade.I cut it at the 60" cut mark and draped it behind my 52" LCD (upside down C).Unfortunately it was too bright and I didn't like the light on my ceiling.I then purchased two 3' strips of rope light track holders and heated the strips over the stove to get the "C" shape back, with the open side to face down behind the tv.I then sprayed these strips with black paint so that light would emit only from the open end ,towards the floor.I cut the track strip ends to fit the rope light and the strips are taped together with black elec.tape (mid-point of the C) after pressing in the rope light.I mounted the now modified rope light back on my tv and plugged it in to my STB (switched).I am now pleased with this ambient lighting effects soft glow.One other fringe benefit is it only draws slightly more than 2 watts of power,so I could care less how long it's on or when it's on and not worry about the LED's burning out anytime soon.
I e-mailed orangetreetrade to get the specs on their pure white LED's and they replied saying they were rated at 6430º K with a CRI 76
I'm sure George has an excellent product but the cost plus shipping forced me to look elsewhere for an alternate method, plus it was fun for me to under-take a new project after reading this thread and reading George's web site...I'm sure now with HDTV really starting to take-off we will start hearing more about "color fidelity" and ambient lighting in dark rooms to watch tv.
Jerry

I also purchased the "pure white" led rope light with 2" spacing from orangetreetrade.I cut it at the 60" cut mark and draped it behind my 52" LCD (upside down C).Unfortunately it was too bright and I didn't like the light on my ceiling.I then purchased two 3' strips of rope light track holders and heated the strips over the stove to get the "C" shape back, with the open side to face the wall behind the tv.I then sprayed these strips with black paint so that light would emit only from the open end ,towards the wall.I cut the track strip ends to fit the rope light and the strips are taped together with black elec.tape (mid-point of the C) after pressing in the rope light.I mounted the now modified rope light back on my tv and plugged it in to my STB (switched).I am now pleased with this ambient lighting effects soft glow.One other fringe benefit is it only draws slightly more than 2 watts of power,so I could care less how long it's on or when it's on and not worry about the LED's burning out anytime soon.
I e-mailed orangetreetrade to get the specs on their pure white LED's and they replied saying they were rated at 6430º K with a CRI 76
I'm sure George has an excellent product but the cost plus shipping forced me to look elsewhere for an alternate method, plus it was fun for me to under-take a new project after reading this thread and reading George's web site...I'm sure now with HDTV really starting to take-off we will start hearing more about "color fidelity" and ambient lighting in dark rooms to watch tv.
Jerry



But its not TRUE 6500K!!!!!!!! Its garbage!!!!! , hehe , just kidding awsome setup , have any pics?

Please note the title of this thread.

Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only)

Anyone interested in solutions other than "SMPTE Recommended Practice - CIE D65/6500K White Light" should find or start a thread on that topic. :)

If the stuff is really 6430K, that would be promising. I've never seen an LED product given a CRI rating before. Everything I've encountered on the LED market thus far that claims to be 6500K has meaured WAY off. I'll get a sample and report back on my findings. One of these days an LED OEM may actually come up with a decent product for video viewing environment use. We will all be benefited by the development.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Does anyone know a pantone number for Kodak 18% gray? Or would that even make sense? I've been putting Delux and Benjamin Moore Paint formulas in the specifications for video production control rooms and edit suites I design, but wondered if there was a more generic/universal way to express it for architects. After all, what's true 6500K light worth on a green wall?

I searched the forums, couldn't find it.

Jason McKelvey
Designer
Acoustic Dimensions, Inc

The Kodak 18% Gray Card is equivalent to a Munsell notation of N5, and reflects 18% of light shined upon it. Other shades of gray are also suitable, all the way up to white. Here is a source for Munsell N7 and N8 equivalent latex paints at a reasonable cost: http://www.rpimaging.com/store/PID123 . As Munsell neutral notations increase in value, they become lighter. The N5/Kodak gray is rather darkish for interior walls. I'm not so familiar with Pantone notations but expect their neutral grays would be truly neutral. You should verify this, however, before specifying them. Of course, only use flat or matte finishes.

If the stuff is really 6430K, that would be promising. I've never seen an LED product given a CRI rating before. Everything I've encountered on the LED market thus far that claims to be 6500K has meaured WAY off. I'll get a sample and report back on my findings. One of these days an LED OEM may actually come up with a decent product for video viewing environment use. We will all be benefited by the development.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

How do you go about testing the CRI? Would it be possible to test it with a colorimeter (eye-one LT)? Then see how close it is to D65?

To test for color rendering index (CRI) requires the right software. I know the EyeOne Pro can work with such software, but I don't own the right program. CRI is not the most definitive method of quantifying color performance. It's a simplified methodology that is convenient for comparison by using one number on a scale.

D65 is a single white point on the CIE Chromaticity Diagram (x: 0.313, y: 0.329). That is the way video white is quantified and referenced. CRI is used in the lighting industry, but CIE Chromaticity is used in electronic imaging. Probably a better correlation in video to CRI would be dE.

To test for color rendering index (CRI) requires the right software. I know the EyeOne Pro can work with such software, but I don't own the right program. CRI is not the most definitive method of quantifying color performance. It's a simplified methodology that is convenient for comparison by using one number on a scale.

D65 is a single white point on the CIE Chromaticity Diagram (x: 0.313, y: 0.329). That is the way video white is quantified and referenced. CRI is used in the lighting industry, but CIE Chromaticity is used in electronic imaging. Probably a better correlation in video to CRI would be dE.

I am assumming anything with a dE of 3 or less would be good? Do you happen to know what the ideal-lume measures for dE?

How would you propose bias lighting if there is only half a full height wall behind the display? The other half is a stair banister.

You need something surrounding the screen for the biasing illumination to reflect off of.

I am assumming anything with a dE of 3 or less would be good?
That would probably be within SMPTE tolerances for CIE D65, but that's just a logical deduction rather than confirmed experience.
Do you happen to know what the ideal-lume measures for dE?
No.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Thanks for the info. =)

My wife surprised me with an early birthday/anniversary present (PS3) so it may be time for me to order a standard ideal-lume soon.

I e-mailed orangetreetrade to get the specs on their pure white LED's and they replied saying they were rated at 6430º K with a CRI 76
If the stuff is really 6430K, that would be promising. I've never seen an LED product given a CRI rating before. Everything I've encountered on the LED market thus far that claims to be 6500K has meaured WAY off. I'll get a sample and report back on my findings. One of these days an LED OEM may actually come up with a decent product for video viewing environment use. We will all be benefited by the development.
My sample arrived from OrangeTreeTrade. I set it up in my lab and it measures between approx. 12,500K and 13,500K! This wasn't much of a surprise, since the very first time I plugged the product in it appeared to be too blue.

LEDs typically have a very narrow beam spread. Special capsules and lensing must be used to widen out the beam. LEDs also hot spot. Therefore, it's difficult to get a consistent measurement of a single LED. I simply coiled up the rope light and took two measurements: one with the combined illumination from the coil shining on a Munsell gray reference card, the other of the coil directly (at a .5 meter distance).

This rope light had the individual LEDs oriented linearly, so that the brightest light was aimed along the length of the clear plastic tubing, rather than perpendicular to it. Therefore, most of the light was pointing in the wrong direction for a TV bias lighting setup.

'White' LEDs usually have yellow phosphor encapsulated with the diode to make them less blue. It doesn't appear that the OEM for these diodes even bothered with that in this product. This assembly looked very similar to others I have measured in the past. It appears they use some of the same components from a Chinese manufacturer that other companies use. This is yet another incident among many that has taught me to NEVER take anyone's word for the color performance of a lighting product. I measure the performance myself before accepting any claims. Inaccurate performance claims are the RULE rather than the exception in my experience of testing samples throughout more than a decade in the lighting industry.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I decided to go with ordering individual components for my bias lighting setup in order to save some money.

I went with a 24" FT18-T8 6500K lamp rated at 98 CRI. My only concern is how to go about limiting the light output.

Alan, or any one else have any recommendations? I am considering the cinefilters ND 1514.
http://www.gamonline.com/catalog/cinefilters/index.php
How would one go about installing this, do you simply wrap it around the lamp and tape it?

I
I e-mailed orangetreetrade to get the specs on their "pure white" LED Rope Light and they replied saying they were rated at 6430º K with a CRI 76


[QUOTE=GeorgeAB;15066547]My sample arrived from OrangeTreeTrade. I set it up in my lab and it measures between approx. 12,500K and 13,500K! This wasn't much of a surprise, since the very first time I plugged the product in it appeared to be too blue.

LEDs typically have a very narrow beam spread. Special capsules and lensing must be used to widen out the beam. LEDs also hot spot. Therefore, it's difficult to get a consistent measurement of a single LED. I simply coiled up the rope light and took two measurements: one with the combined illumination from the coil shining on a Munsell gray reference card, the other of the coil directly (at a .5 meter distance).

This rope light had the individual LEDs oriented linearly, so that the brightest light was aimed along the length of the clear plastic tubing, rather than perpendicular to it. Therefore, most of the light was pointing in the wrong direction for a TV bias lighting setup.

'White' LEDs usually have yellow phosphor encapsulated with the diode to make them less blue. It doesn't appear that the OEM for these diodes even bothered with that in this product. This assembly looked very similar to others I have measured in the past. It appears they use some of the same components from a Chinese manufacturer that other companies offer. This is yet another incident among many that has taught me to NEVER take anyone's word for the color performance of a lighting product. I measure the performance myself before accepting any claims. Inaccurate performance claims are the RULE rather than the exception in my experience of testing samples throughout more than a decade in the lighting industry.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I'm glad George checked out the specs on OrangeTreeTrades claim on their "pure white" rope light! I know the internet is full of BS claims (I got sucked in) but I'm sure this post concerning OrangeTreeTrades product should help some other people from making the same mistake as me.
I will be purchasing the Ideal-Lume Light after the holidays.
Jerry

just got my ideal lume standard from George, very happy with the results. when i get my hands on a laptop i'll adjust the output via DVE HD Basics blu-ray.

here are some pics, going to stick the velcro on tonight.

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.jpg)

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.jpg)

We have added some additional installation/mounting photos on our web site that may help folks with install questions: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/images.htm . The first four pics are from customers. After that are all pics from a THX Video Calibration training following CEDIA Expo last September. We needed to backlight eight different displays in the same room. None were wall mounted.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

just got my ideal lume standard from George, very happy with the results. when i get my hands on a laptop i'll adjust the output via DVE HD Basics blu-ray.

here are some pics, going to stick the velcro on tonight.

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.jpg)

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.jpg)

That 1st picture looks great, really great. What color is the wall behind your set? It doesn't take away from what's on the screen at all.

Jim

That 1st picture looks great, really great. What color is the wall behind your set? It doesn't take away from what's on the screen at all.

Jim

wall color is white, a bit toward cream, not completely white.

just got my ideal lume standard from George, very happy with the results. when i get my hands on a laptop i'll adjust the output via DVE HD Basics blu-ray.

here are some pics, going to stick the velcro on tonight.

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/ryiqgxlnnq.jpg)

http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.thumb250.jpg (http://static1.filefront.com/images/personal/j/jkcheng122/150458/wrdvdoflvf.jpg)Whatever you do, don't use velcro/double-stick tape. I had a bear of a time "unmounting" my ideal lume to change a bulb. There have been several posts in this tread about suspending the light with wires/ties (see Alan's pictures from a few posts back).

Good luck!
Murray

Whatever you do, don't use velcro/double-stick tape. I had a bear of a time "unmounting" my ideal lume to change a bulb. There have been several posts in this tread about suspending the light with wires/ties (see Alan's pictures from a few posts back).

Good luck!
Murray

guess i'll just leave them in the bag then and keep the current setup.

Here is my setup.

-Wal-Mart - 24" Grow Light - Portable ($9.99)
-Ultra Sun Superdaylight Aquarium Bulb by Zoo Med ($14.99 at local pet store) 6500K, 98CRI

Attached are some shots, that do not do complete justice, since I was in a hurry, but they give an idea of the setup. The saturated reds are more due to the OTA broadcast of CBS than the TV settings. With the DVE, they are spot on.

http://images115.fotki.com/v689/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0478-vi.jpg

http://images42.fotki.com/v1375/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0477-vi.jpg

The colors would pop more, but the back wall is a pale yellow and I did not spend a great deal of time adjusting the camera for ideal pictures.

http://images43.fotki.com/v1383/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0479-vi.jpg

http://images115.fotki.com/v685/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0480-vi.jpg

http://images40.fotki.com/v1336/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0481-vi.jpg

http://images42.fotki.com/v1380/photos/7/77393/3903166/DSC_0482-vi.jpg

I have them connected to the set with 3M Picture Hanging Strips. Since the housing is plastic, it is fairly light.

wall color is white, a bit toward cream, not completely white.

Thanks for the feedback. I was sure the wall color was a light grey and I wanted to make sure.

Jim

Borrowing a picture from an earlier post, can someone tell me the dimension of the area I have the yellow arrow below?

It says 1 3/4" high in the dimensions of the Standard version so i'm wondering if that was the bottom piece, or everything including the bulb. The reason I ask is I have my plasma mounted on a "low profile" mount so it sits pretty close to the wall.

Also, how long is the wire that connects the two fixtures on the Panelight model?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/scamallite/Dimension.jpg

Those new pictures are VERY helpful.

We have added some additional installation/mounting photos on our web site that may help folks with install questions: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/images.htm

Borrowing a picture from an earlier post, can someone tell me the dimension of the area I have the yellow arrow below?

It says 1 3/4" high in the dimensions of the Standard version so i'm wondering if that was the bottom piece, or everything including the bulb. The reason I ask is I have my plasma mounted on a "low profile" mount so it sits pretty close to the wall.

Here is the information from our online store description of the Ideal-Lume Panelight model- Size: L 22 1/2" x W 7/8" x H 1 3/4." It means what it says. These are the O.D. measurements.

Also, how long is the wire that connects the two fixtures on the Panelight model?
This is also from the online store's description- two 1 meter linking cords for joining the two fixtures

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

is there a preferred area to attach the light? or is dead center from all sides the best location?

That's a good place to start. Some experimentation may be necessary to get the most even light spread on the wall.

I have a 40" LCD (Samsung). My TV is in a built in entertainment center with about 5" on each side about 1' from the back. Is the Ideal-Lume Standard what I want?

That model will likely be sufficient for your application.

What is the best model for a 50" pioneer plasma?

Also how far away from the wall should the back of the plasma be?

If your TV is stand mounted, which it sounds like you are implying, a single light will be sufficient. Much depends on how dark the wall is. A very dark wall might need two lights. The distance can be as little as four to six inches. More distance will allow for better spread of the illumination on the wall. Some experimentation will likely be in order to get the best effect.

How are you guys switching the lights on and off?

There are a wide variety of methods to automate the switching of bias lights discussed throughout this thread. Some popular solutions include: plugging them into an extension cord connected to a switched outlet on a surround receiver, using a surge protector/power center that offers an automated switched outlet, etc. Here are an assortment of devices that can be used with or without remote control: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/x-10.htm . There are other devices out there as well at all kinds of price points and degrees of complexity. Much depends on your current system, type of programmable remote you already own, and unique needs.

How are you guys switching the lights on and off?

most of us i believe simply plug the fixture into our receiver, so when the receiver turns on and off the backlight follows.

How are you guys switching the lights on and off?


Because of the ease of access for mine, I just turn it on with the switch on the unit each time I turn on the TV, but as George said, there are so many ways. It depends on your specific setup.

You are correct about the TV being stand mounted. It is currently sitting about 2ft away from the wall but I will probably move it closer to 12" , also the color of the walls are a neutral very light grey.

If your TV is stand mounted, which it sounds like you are implying, a single light will be sufficient. Much depends on how dark the wall is. A very dark wall might need two lights. The distance can be as little as four to six inches. More distance will allow for better spread of the illumination on the wall. Some experimentation will likely be in order to get the best effect.

Great, my receiver has two outlets so I'll just use that.

Hello, I have a 40" samsung TV thats wall-mounted. I was wondering if the Ideal Panelight product (the one that comes with 2 lights) would be sufficient? Also, is it better to place them on the sides or the top and bottom? The TV is in the living room with white coloured walls. Would this have an affect on it?

Yes, the Ideal-Lume Panelight is the correct one. Most folks mount the lights on the two sides, either attaching to the back of the panel or to the wall mount structure. Your white wall is neutral and therefore ideal.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well after reading about Bias lighting I decided to go to several places looking for parts for my Samsung 52 850 Tv.
Here's what I got:
From Home Depot I picked up a 6500K light bulb. $8.00
From Staples I picked up a Clip on Lamp. $20.00
From my local everything store I picked up a 15ft remote switch extension cord. $5.00

Here are my results.

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_Bias1m_4123659.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/12/14/f_Bias1m_4123659.jpg&srv=img26)
Superman 1978 streaming through the PS3.



http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_Bias4Rambom_cd8e8a5.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/12/14/f_Bias4Rambom_cd8e8a5.jpg&srv=img26)
Can't be an American without watching Rambo!



http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_Bias3m_60ab4f5.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/12/14/f_Bias3m_60ab4f5.jpg&srv=img26)
Here's the clip on lamp. It has a hood but I didn't put it on.

Well after reading about Bias lighting I decided to go to several places looking for parts for my Samsung 52 850 Tv.
Here's what I got:
From Home Depot I picked up a 6500K light bulb. $8.00
From Staples I picked up a Clip on Lamp. $20.00
From my local everything store I picked up a 15ft remote switch extension cord. $5.00

Here are my results.

Hi,

Did you see a large improvement in the picture after you set up your BIAS lighting?

I expect to buy my lights from CinemaQuest, Inc.

I figure with the cost of the HDTV why go with a make shift lighting set up when I can get the best available.

Also, just out of gratitude for the information that we get from George at CinemaQuest why not repay him by buying the produce from him.

So anyway, was there an improvement after you set up the lights?

Jim

The effects from this setup is actually pretty good. I wasn't able to tell the cri level from the bulb packaging but I doubt it's over 80. I will also order George's single lighting solution and see how big the difference is.

Has anyone tried these? The color temp is close to 6500K for this style of white LED, and they are available in many lengths. They would require a 12V source, but I bought two sets for car accent purposes, but since the purchase of our new plasma, have been looking into bias lighting and thought they might work for this application. They run super cool as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/120cm-120X-PVC-LED-Strip-Light-White_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcatego ryZ33713QQihZ012QQitemZ220328608643QQtcZphoto

Please define "close," and where do you see any statement in the ad that claims any color temperature? Are you guessing? Over recent years, every white LED product I have purchased and tested has measured anywhere from 7500K to 16,000K. These were all claiming to be 6500K or within 500K of that color temperature.

The only exception has been the Ikea white Dioder product, which measured 5200K. This was reported to me by a THX calibrator in Denmark. Ikea does not make any color temperature claim in their online ad. His reading of an Ideal-Lume Panelight came in at 6540K.

I'm growing weary of spending money and time on uncovering repeated marketing hype, uninformed guesswork, and outright lies about so-called 6500K white LED products. If anyone wants to order these, test them with reliable instruments and report back on your findings, I'll take an interest. Until that happens, I'll assume they are no where near the right color, likely way too blue, especially since they don't even claim to be correct.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

most of us i believe simply plug the fixture into our receiver, so when the receiver turns on and off the backlight follows.

This may have been answered earlier in the thread but I've already spent over an hour here at work reading this thread :p

How exactly would I go about plugging the fixture into my receiver? Is there any special cord I need to buy seperately?

Thanks and awesome product! I'm strongly considering buying one soon.

Most AV Receivers have switched electric outlets on the back. They power up when the AV Receiver is turned on. No special cable is needed other than a light weight extension cord if the cord on the bias light isn't long enough.

This may have been answered earlier in the thread but I've already spent over an hour here at work reading this thread :p

How exactly would I go about plugging the fixture into my receiver? Is there any special cord I need to buy seperately?

Thanks and awesome product! I'm strongly considering buying one soon.It is just a standard electrical plug, so if your receiver has the outlet to plug in an external device, it will work.

The only exception has been the Ikea white Dioder product, which measured 5200K. This was reported to me by a THX calibrator in Denmark. Ikea does not make any color temperature claim in their online ad. His reading of an Ideal-Lume Panelight came in at 6540K.

omg, you're 40K off, get it right or i want my money back. :D

j/k. i love my ideal lume, only gripe is the velcro tapes dont stay on the panel. i have the light sitting on the center channel placed right behind the tv.

what's the margin of error on the thx guy's measurement?

what's the margin of error on the thx guy's measurement?
Not large. He used an i1Pro spectrophotometer and CalMan Pro software.

Is there any way to estimate this without professional equipment? I already have three lengths ( for the car ) so I have the samples, I just don't know how I can closely/properly let you know what the color temp may be. My reference was my 6K HID setup, that's the best I had to go against.

Please define "close," and where do you see any statement in the ad that claims any color temperature? Are you guessing? Over recent years, every white LED product I have purchased and tested has measured anywhere from 7500K to 16,000K. These were all claiming to be 6500K or within 500K of that color temperature.

The only exception has been the Ikea white Dioder product, which measured 5200K. This was reported to me by a THX calibrator in Denmark. Ikea does not make any color temperature claim in their online ad. His reading of an Ideal-Lume Panelight came in at 6540K.

I'm growing weary of spending money and time on uncovering repeated marketing hype, uninformed guesswork, and outright lies about so-called 6500K white LED products. If anyone wants to order these, test them with reliable instruments and report back on your findings, I'll take an interest. Until that happens, I'll assume they are no where near the right color, likely way too blue, especially since they don't even claim to be correct.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Is there any way to estimate this without professional equipment?
You could visually compare it to a verified accurate CIE D65 reference. Otherwise, a suitable instrument would be required in a neutral environment.

Hi George,

I'm going to order some of your lights.

I have Kuro 141 60" plasma in a living room installed about 4" from the wall.

I have one outlet avalible for lights.

My living room is not huge, and the room is semi-dark and can be dark in the evening.

I was thinking of using this for watching movies in the evening.

Which light do you recommend?

The Panelight?

The TV is about 4" up from a cabinet so I assume you wouldn't want to put a light on the bottom because of the reflection on the cabinet.

Would you recommend a light on the left and right side?
What about on the top?

Can you hook up 3 lights to one outlet?

thanks

Three lights would be a good choice, perhaps even four. Perhaps someone who has placed two along the top and one on each side of a similarly sized panel could jump in and comment on how it worked out. They can all be linked together so that only one power cord is used. If you go with three (one Standard model and a Panelight), there should be enough linking cables (2) in the Panelight model to bridge between the 3 fixtures. Using two Panelights, with two lights along the top, might give you more even distribution of the illumination on the wall.

Intresting, here is a link that alows you to see the PDF brochure that has a detail of the back of my new Kuro. It looks likes like there is enough room for two lights on the top and one on each side. Please conferm..

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/EliteMonitors/PRO-141FD?tab=D

I can't tell if I can put the lights on the outside edge. Perhaps you can tell.

With my Chief mount fully recessed the back of the TV is about 1.75" from the back wall. Your light is 1.75" deep.

Good news is I have a swing arm mount. So if I push the TV as close as possible to the wall, your light will have less then 1" of free space to reflect from.

Would this be enough?

This mount can swing out as much a 22" from the back wall so I'm sure I would get the desired effect, don't you think?

Here is the mount...

http://www.chiefmfg.com/productdetail.aspx?ProductID=21563

Our T5 fixtures are 7/8" deep when mounted on their flat side. The Velcro sticks much better this way as well. It appears they will still fit with your installation and provide biasing illumination as you propose. Twenty-two inches is also not too much distance for the effect to work well.

Our T5 fixtures are 7/8" deep when mounted on their flat side. The Velcro sticks much better this way as well. It appears they will still fit with your installation and provide biasing illumination as you propose. Twenty-two inches is also not too much distance for the effect to work well.

Thanks GeorgeAB-If I get 2 pair of the panelights (4 lights total) would I be able to use ONE remote (yours) to turn off all 4 lights?

I'm growing weary of spending money and time on uncovering repeated marketing hype, uninformed guesswork, and outright lies about so-called 6500K white LED products. If anyone wants to order these, test them with reliable instruments and report back on your findings, I'll take an interest. Until that happens, I'll assume they are no where near the right color, likely way too blue, especially since they don't even claim to be correct.



Hey George, I've been wanting to ask you this for a while. Have you ever done any evalution of Philips TVs with the built in ambilight. Specifically model 42PFL7432d. I own this model and it has a bank of LED bias lights on either side of the back of the panel.

I know I have read on this thread before that you did not like Philips' idea of their content adaptive ambilight as this is counter productive to what a bias light is actually trying to achieve. Well with the model TV referenced above, the ambilight has the option to run in "color mode" where it will stay lit at one color and brightness no matter what is on screen. This is how I run mine. There is also "fully" adjustable color and brightness controls.

Now, I don't expect you to run out and grab one of these sets to test it out for me, but was wondering if you have ever had the chance to see/test the LED ambilight models from Philips and if so, what were your impressions. Cnet reviewed the set and talked down on the "auto adaptive" function of the ambilight, but did provide settings for what Katzmeir said was close to 6500K in "color" mode. That is what I use at a low brightness. It is probably a little blue, but I can't imagine viewing in a dark room without it now :)

John

would I be able to use ONE remote...to turn off all 4 lights?
Yes.

BIGJOHNB20,

I haven't tested one. Their multi-color approach is counterproductive toimage fidelity. Therefore, I don't recommend it. They could have implemented a version that actually contributed to reference imaging, but opted for a gimmick instead. Many consumers are more impressed with gimmicks than artistic integrity and image accuracy. My question is, how much better would the TV's picture be if Philips had devoted all that effort and expense toward an optional mode that follows imaging industry standards?

Philips should know better, and actually plagiarized my marketing content when they initially promoted Ambilight. If it uses white LEDs, it's probably too blue. If they blend RGB LEDs to make white, it might be better. Perhaps someone who owns your model, also owns a suitable color analyzer, a genuine neutral reference to bounce the illumination off of, and would like to give us a report of how your version of Ambilight performs in their sample.

BIGJOHNB20,

I haven't tested one. Their multi-color approach is counterproductive toimage fidelity. Therefore, I don't recommend it. They could have implemented a version that actually contributed to reference imaging, but opted for a gimmick instead. Many consumers are more impressed with gimmicks than artistic integrity and image accuracy. My question is, how much better would the TV's picture be if Philips had devoted all that effort and expense toward an optional mode that follows imaging industry standards?

Philips should know better, and actually plagiarized my marketing content when they initially promoted Ambilight. If it uses white LEDs, it's probably too blue. If they blend RGB LEDs to make white, it might be better. Perhaps someone who owns your model, also owns a suitable color analyzer, a genuine neutral reference to bounce the illumination off of, and would like to give us a report of how your version of Ambilight performs in their sample.

Hey GeorgeAB
Thanks for replying. I think you have posted that first paragraph before, or at least something to the same effect. I understand that and that is why I tried to emphasize that they do allow you to set the ambiliight at a constant color regardless of screen content. I never use the auto adaptive feature as I find it actually detracts from the viewing experience.

The LEDs are an RGB mix rather than just white. This is what allows them to create the different colors. David Katzmeir or whatever his name is at Cnet reivewed the set and claimed he got the backlight close to 6500K. I don't recall if he ever gave the exact reading he arrived at. I also am unaware of his equipment or what was used to bounce the light off of. That is why I asked if you ever had a chance to test one of these sets.

Anyway, sorry to hear that Philips plagiarized you. Regardless, I really like the TV, especially the backlight. I am hooked. Philips is essentially pulling out of the US market, so when it is finally time upgrade, I will certaintly keep the idealume in mind. You are a great source of info on this thread. Thanks,

I posted a few months ago about the difficulty I had removing my panelights from the back of my 45" Sharp LCD TV. I had used double stick tape to adhere the lights to the left and right sides of the TV (mounted vertically).

I am now going to put them back on and need some advice on mounting. Some previous posts plus the pictures on Alan's website show people suspending their lights using hooks or pull-ties, but all the pictures I have seen using these mounting methods have the lights mounted horizontally at top and bottom not vertically.

So I have 2 questions.
1. What is the optimal mounting orientation for a 45" flat panel TV -- horizontal or vertical?
2. If it is vertical, are they any ideas on how to mount them without using an adhesive backing?

thanks,
Murray

1. Most users find that vertical works best for a wall-mounted panel.
2. I've used the Velcro on every one I've mounted vertically. It is best to stick it to the flat side of the fixture, opposite the toggle switch side, rather than the bottom. This has better weight distribution than adhering the stuff to the bottom. You will have to improvise another solution. Much depends on the specifics of your TV, the mount, and other installation variables.

Hi George, I'm going to order a pair of Panelights and try them out and if I need more lights I know where to get them.

Question:

Is the remote you mentioned that is used to turn the lights on & off the
X10 RF remote on/off switch on your web site?

Is that all I need for remote functionality?

Do the linking cables of the Panelight plug into the white box shown on your web picture? Does an additional cable go out of the white box to my outlet?

Last of all, can I plug the panelight's with an in-line X10, into a power-bridge outlet that is pluged into a "surge protector/line conditioner".

I think I read on your web site that it will not work if it's plugged into a surge protector. Correct?

thanks!

The X10 RF remote switch you mention is our least expensive solution. It comes with its own RF remote. The remote can control the switch even if it's plugged into a surge device, because it communicates through the antenna on the side. X10 commands will not pass through a surge device to communicate with other X10 modules elsewhere in your house, however.

The white module plugs into an outlet, then the Ideal-Lume power cord plugs into the switch module. Such detailed questioning about our products would be better conducted via e-mail with our office.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I just purchased the pro lighting systemm from Cinema Quest. I am really impressed with the quality of the product.

I am wondering if I have it setup correctly. I would appreciate any recommendations or advice.

It looks like you would achieve more even spread of the illumination on the wall if you can move the TV away from the wall bit more.

It looks like you would achieve more even spread of the illumination on the wall if you can move the TV away from the wall bit more.

George,

Is it possible to recommend, on the average, how far away from the wall the lights should be to work best?

Jim

There is no average. It depends on how dark the wall is, how the TV cabinet is shaped, which light is being used, how many are implemented, what the physical orientation is, how large the TV is, etc., etc.

Can someone recommend a backlighting for my set-up ?

Its a Pioneer Elite pro-151fd 60" plasma and the wall is
a sort of tan color.

Also where should I mount it ?

thanks


( screen is exactly 25" from back wall on both sides.)

my set-up>>>>
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/88.jpg?t=1229806277


http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/99.jpg?t=1229807119



Hmm , I am now wondering if the light blocking shield my 151 came with is for backlighting ..

hmmm.. I am gonna have to ask this in the 151fd thread.

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm


Something like this then ?

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/img/cqKiller2PanelightInstall.jpg

Your back wall is so light in color and reflective, I think one light would be enough. We have have cusomers tell us one was just right for their 73" RPTV in front of a white wall. You have plenty of space for the illumination to spread out effectively.

It looks like you would achieve more even spread of the illumination on the wall if you can move the TV away from the wall bit more.

Hi George,

I pulled my rack out about 2 more inches from the wall. I'll check tonight to determine if this provides more coverage. My plasma is a 50" Kuro. Should I have purchased two pro kits and mounted them vertically at each side of the plasma?

Would I get more coverage if I left the cover off of the bulb?

BTW, I am not unhappy with the coverage at this point. I just did not know what to expect. Is the goal to make a halo around the entire parameter of the display?

It was very impressive how quickly my order was completed and shipped.

Thanks for your help.

Something like this then ?

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/img/cqKiller2PanelightInstall.jpg

Jim,

Can you explain why you have a piece of shag carpet on the wall behind your HDTV?

I have seen at least one other picture where this was done so there must be a valid reason. Is it to soften the effect of the bias lighting?

Jim

Should I have purchased two pro kits and mounted them vertically at each side of the plasma?
Not likely.
Would I get more coverage if I left the cover off of the bulb?
That might help. More light can be gained by adjusting the rotating baffle tube, changing the way the two black films overlap, or removing the films altogether. Keep the clear filter and the tube itself for color correction.
Is the goal to make a halo around the entire parameter of the display?

Desirable but not required.

Thanks George, I'll continue to make adjustments to spread the light around a little more.

I have just had my kuro 5010 calibrated by Jeff (UMR) and was thinking of adding back lighting. My TV is 28" from the wall which is an off white so can any body recommend a light or lights and should I mount them to the back of the TV or the wall.
Any imput would be greatly appreciated.

Please try reading back a few pages of this thread. All your questions have been handled numerous times throughout its length. Also, have you asked Jeff?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Hi,

I'm thinking about getting the Ideal Lume Standard for my 32" Samsung but I'm not sure how well it will work in my environment. My TV is currently about 1 foot away from my wall, but I live in an A-frame. So the wall goes down and angles away from my TV. Would the light still be able to reflect off the wall well enough for me to get $50 worth of benefits from it?

Thank you.

Thanks, George. I just got the Ideal-Lume Standard for Christmas. It works great. Nice packaging too.

I live in an A-frame. So the wall goes down and angles away from my TV. Would the light still be able to reflect off the wall well enough for me to get $50 worth of benefits from it?
The technique will still be significantly beneficial in your installation. You will need to experiment and improvise a little with the mounting location to get appropriately even illumination on the wall from your viewing position. Perfection is not required to realize the claimed advantages for the product. Contact us directly if you need additional guidance for installation help. Save all the original packaging and contact us within 30 days if you find it unsuitable for your application.

Has anyone done this with a wall mounted TV? My concern is that it will be too close to the wall to have a good spread of light.

I was looking into LED strip lights to possibly correct this but wanted to see what other people have done.

I was looking into LED strip lights to possibly correct this but wanted to see what other people have done.White LED lights have been reported to be extremely blue. :eek:

Many wall mounted panels use back lighting.

i found the led rope light to work really good - and i am using blue - looks excellent - nice glow all around -
i am using mounting brackets from - orangetreetrade.com
they sell all the items you need - which gave me a clean nice finish - i mounted mines on the TV all around the edges but not too close - you dont want to get too close where you might see the rope ligth from the front of the TV - and i used dual locking velcro to keep everything in place firm - i have mines plugged into a wireless light switch which i can flip to turn it on or off when ever i like

mines is on a 40 inch LCD - and it does help with the blacks alot -

Such blue back lighting would render a video display incapable of delivering correct color when both are used together. If your objective is accurate rendering of video programs, 6500K bias lighting is the recommended method. Even the "white" LED option from orangetreetrade has been measured to be about 13000K.

Such blue back lighting would render a video display incapable of delivering correct color when both are used together. If your objective is accurate rendering of video programs, 6500K bias lighting is the recommended method. Even the "white" LED option from orangetreetrade has been measured to be about 13000K.

you may right - but from what i see - it looks great - both visual and cosmetic - i am happy with the blue - i have also while Led rope ligth i could have used - but to me it was just too boring - i could just leave a little lamp on if i wanted that - everyone has different tastes

but your right - if you want to be accurate - then 6500k is what you want - to me the TV PQ looks great and the blacks are much darker -

Has anybody tried a Ottlite task lamp like this http://www.ottlite.com/p-62-classic-task-lamp.aspx
I have a spare one and was thinking of trying this behind my PDP5010 till I have some spare cash :eek:

everyone has different tastes
You are the expert on the topic of your individual taste. Unfortunately, one of the many obvious things you have failed to see is that this thread is dedicated to a specific topic that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with individual taste. Yours is a common misunderstanding in the field of consumer video. Most consumers have never learned that video is based upon internationally recognized standards, engineering guidelines and recommended practices.

This link is to an article that may help you begin to understand better what proper imaging is composed of, and how your viewing environment conditions can impact how you see a TV picture: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm . Some of the "sticky" threads at the top of this section of the forum might also fill in the gaps in your understanding of what this thread is dealing with. There are other threads elsewhere in the forum that discuss the use of colored lights in a home entertainment system. You might find such a thread more to your taste. Many consumers prefer distorted pictures to the authentic version.

Has anybody tried a Ottlite task lamp like this.....
Their products use the wrong color temperature.

Thanks I guess that takes care of that I will order the real deal next week. After reading it looks like 1 should do the trick.

So does anyone have any suggestions on where to find some fairly priced Bias lighting? I've tried two different solutions, and still not fully satisfied. I'm not a perfectionist, and don't feel that the spectrum of light being 100% accurate is going to reduce my enjoyment I get from my TV. I also don't feel the need to re-paint the wall with the TV mounted on it and install a piece of shag carpet behind my mount.

But I do feel that, like just about everyone, I could benefit from some type of Bias lighting and the improvement it gives the picture. So here's what i've tried...

I first purchased some LED Rope Lights from Home Depot, cool white, and attached them around the back recessed part of the set. To me this was the only way to get the spread of light on the wall that I was looking for, because it circled the whole back of the TV.

The Rope Lights just aren't anywhere close to the right spectrum. I would like as close to 6500k as I can get (closest flourescent I saw at HomeDepot was Philips Natural Daylight Bulb at 5000k). American Lighting sells some LED Rope Kits, that claim they are 6500k, but they look identical to the one's I already have, and I want to say they might be the exact same ones. But not at home to check the packaging.

Next I tried a 24" Flourescent tube light behind the TV (similar to the 'Ideal Lume' fixtures) right above the wall mount. This gave off what appeared to be close to the right color light, but way too bright, and too limited on where the light would shine due to the bulb placement.

I would have to buy at least two, possibly four of these tube lights to get the light to spread correctly on the wall behind the set. Two 24" on the top and bottom of the set horiz, and two 12" on each side vertically.

But this is a little much, and would probably be way too bright. Just wondering if anyone had experimented with any other alternatives, and would care to offer any insight.

Like I said, i'm not going for the 'ideal lume', when I can purchase something very similar for like $12. I wouldn't mind spending around $50 or so to be able to call it done. Hope this is the right place for this, everyone here seems pretty well rounded when it comes to this subject, and I am new, so any feedback would be appreciated.

Like I said, i'm not going for the 'ideal lume', when I can purchase something very similar for like $12. I wouldn't mind spending around $50 or so to be able to call it done.

if you're looking for something as close to 6500K as possible and willing to spend around $50 or so, why not get the ideal lume. it's the most siimple solution. if 6500K bias lighting is so easy to achieve Ideal Lume wouldnt be the only game in town.

if willing to sacrifice accuracy (6500K vs other temp), then this would be the wrong thread to ask.

if you can indeed find something like it for $12, by all means show the rest of us. i think many here have tried the $12 methods and are either happy with the results regardless of accuracy or upped for the ideal lume instead.

if you're looking for something as close to 6500K as possible and willing to spend around $50 or so, why not get the ideal lume. it's the most siimple solution. if 6500K bias lighting is so easy to achieve Ideal Lume wouldnt be the only game in town.

if willing to sacrifice accuracy (6500K vs other temp), then this would be the wrong thread to ask.

if you can indeed find something like it for $12, by all means show the rest of us. i think many here have tried the $12 methods and are either happy with the results regardless of accuracy or upped for the ideal lume instead.
I have to agree that while to some folks the price of the Ideal Lume might seem high, once you have done the research (especially the stuff on contrast and how your eyes work) it makes the investment in Alan's product easy to justify. The majority of the panels these lights will be deployed behind (with the appropriate wall color range) are at least $1-2,000 (my 60" Pioneer Kuro over $4K) so the $60-70 is a sound addition (IMHO - YMMV).

if you're looking for something as close to 6500K as possible and willing to spend around $50 or so, why not get the ideal lume. it's the most siimple solution. if 6500K bias lighting is so easy to achieve Ideal Lume wouldnt be the only game in town.

if willing to sacrifice accuracy (6500K vs other temp), then this would be the wrong thread to ask.

if you can indeed find something like it for $12, by all means show the rest of us. i think many here have tried the $12 methods and are either happy with the results regardless of accuracy or upped for the ideal lume instead.


I didn't see any price on them; but I remember hearing that they are high, and with the size and placement of my set I would need a couple I would think.

It isn't that I don't understand the benefit, and appreciate the research and development that went into that product. I was just simply asking if anyone knew of an alternative. Like you said, I guess this is the wrong place for that.

But here's a picture of what i've done with $9 rope lighting LED's and $2 sticky back cable hangers. Keep in mind the wall is red (not my choice; will be painting), and the light is a little in the amber spectrum for my taste. But here it is for now.

Take it for what it is...

PEACE

Duck

I agree completely. What ever the cost is for the bias lighting sold by GeorgeAB that cost is a small percentage of what the HDTV cost us.

Why would someone research for months what set to buy, look for a good stand, AVR, speakers, cables and then cut corners on something like bias lighting when it can enhance the enjoyment of watching the HDTV?

I realize cost does come into play here but would it not be better to wait and save until the better lighting system can be bought?


Now that I have put myself into the dog house with that statement could someone PLEASE answer a few questions for me?

1. When we think about bias lighting what benefit is the piece of shag carpet behind the TV suppose to give us?

Does it even out the light distribution?

I know that GeorgeAB says we need a neutral color on the wall and Duck you mentioned "the appropriate wall color range".

2. Well what is the appropriate wall color range?

I guess what I am looking for is what colors would be suggested and what colors should we stay away from to get the better effect of the bias lighting?

Not taking into consideration the color of the furniture or cabinets in the room. If someone were to draw up a list of what colors to paint the wall behind the TV.
What colors would be on the suggest list and what colors would be on the list of colors not to use?

I would guess white, light to medium grey and cream would be on the list of colors that are good to use and black, dark grey and dark brown would be on the list of colors to stay away from.

Can someone add to that idea for me?

3. What is the appropriate finish of the paint?

I would imagine a flat paint or egg shell would be good and a high gloss would not work correctly.

Could some of you take a few minutes and list what you have used that has worked out well or what you used that did not work at all?

4. If a certain color did not work out, why did it not work out?


Jim

Duck

I agree completely. What ever the cost is for the bias lighting sold by GeorgeAB that cost is a small percentage of what the HDTV cost us.

Why would someone research for months what set to buy, look for a good stand, AVR, speakers, cables and then cut corners on something like bias lighting when it can enhance the enjoyment of watching the HDTV?

I realize cost does come into play here but would it not be better to wait and save until the better lighting system can be bought?


Now that I have put myself into the dog house with that statement could someone PLEASE answer a few questions for me?


Jim


Based on that logic I would spend my my whole life saving, trying have enough to buy better things. No thanks.

I would say it has more to do with priorities than it does the money.

I can live and sleep at night knowing that the lighting behind my TV doesn't meet George's "Industry Standards".

I think people need to understand that rope light in and of it self is not very bright to begin with...not sure of the wattage but it can't be much.

I just find it to be an acceptable, inexpensive, solution to what are perceived to be problems with the black reproduction in plasma units. It helps.

Some will prefer the idealume.

There is no definite right or wrong...just variances.

To credit the person who actually started this thread...

if you're looking for something as close to 6500K as possible and willing to spend around $50 or so, why not get the ideal lume. it's the most siimple solution. if 6500K bias lighting is so easy to achieve Ideal Lume wouldnt be the only game in town.

if willing to sacrifice accuracy (6500K vs other temp), then this would be the wrong thread to ask.



Have you even read this thread? Perhaps the orginal post?

Jim_In_Boston,

Most of your questions have been handled numerous times throughout this, admittedly, overly long and tedious thread. Another more concise source for details pertaining to viewing environment principles would be my web site. You can also glean this information from the "sticky" thread on viewing environment principles at the top of this section of the forum.

The shag carpet issue that has been mentioned must have come from a single photo of a customer's installation on our web site. He installed that for some other reason than bias lighting. If I recall correctly, it was for acoustic absorption. This may be an excellent example of how mixed up people can get by making assumptions about what they see. Often you may hear someone make the comment, "I know what I like when I see it!" Such a statement means absolutely nothing to anyone when it's understood how easily fooled human visual perception is and also how easy it is to misunderstand what it is that we see. In most focus group tests with average consumers, people choose the distorted images over the correct ones when TVs are placed side-by-side. This occurs on sales floors in electronics stores as well.

Another good example is how magazines depict home entertainment installations. People see wrong practice all the time in photos and assume it's the right way to do things. In most cases, mounting a flat TV on a wall results in more consequences than benefits, unless it is viewed more as a decorator item than a video display. Most consumers to this day still understand very little about good imaging because they have either never been taught or have been taught wrongly.

Excellence in any field usually is achieved only after devoting extraordinary time, effort and resources. Many members and readers of the AV Science forum are interested in audio and video excellence. Other members are mainly interested in cheaper, faster, easier, or what might look "cool" to them, or offer that indescribable "wow" factor. We're all entitled to our own set of interests and priorities. People who value imaging excellence in terms of genuine fidelity will devote what it takes to achieve it. That requires some fundamental understanding of imaging science principles, display industry standards and practices, and human perceptual factors.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

There is no definite right or wrong...just variances.
This statement is naive and ignorant. The remainder of the thread proceeds to explain why. Video is governed by standards, engineering guidelines, and recommended practices based in science and decades of proven industry practice. Individual preference has nothing to do with correct imaging. Image fidelity has very specific requirements and defined elements. The technique of video bias lighting has clear and specific objectives, benefits and requirements.

Alan,

I don't remember seeing this in the thread, but if you had to make a tradeoff, would a higher CRI be more preferable to a colour temp closer to 6500 or vice-versa?

Too vague.

Sorry.

More specifically, which would be the better choice between a 5000K/94CRI lamp vs a 6500K/78CRI lamp?

The color temp would likely be of greater concern in that case but it depends on which direction in color space the CRI error occurs. Wall color would also be a concern.

Thanks.

The wall is a dark blue/gray. Going by my wife's Pantone guide, it's closest to 18-4036.

This statement is naive and ignorant. The remainder of the thread proceeds to explain why. Video is governed by standards, engineering guidelines, and recommended practices based in science and decades of proven industry practice. Individual preference has nothing to do with correct imaging. Image fidelity has very specific requirements and defined elements. The technique of video bias lighting has clear and specific objectives, benefits and requirements.


I think we have established that.

But not everyone on this thread is trying to make a living off their website like you are. Not everyone has the motive of selling their own product like you do. :eek:

So maybe we should encourage the sharing of ideas; which is the true purpose of this thread, rather that pursuing our own personal agendas.

I think at this point we are all aware of your site, and its content. It is invaluable and very appreciated.

I think we have established that.

But not everyone on this thread is trying to make a living off their website like you are. Not everyone has the motive of selling their own product like you do. :eek:

So maybe we should encourage the sharing of ideas; which is the true purpose of this thread, rather that pursuing our own personal agendas.

I think at this point we are all aware of your site, and its content. It is invaluable and very appreciated.Here is the true purpose of this thread: "Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only)" If there are other solutions out there other than Alan's that meet this standard then they SHOULD be discussed in this thread. If they do not meet the D65/6500K standard, then they don't belong in here. Start a new thread...it's easy enough. :D

I am in no way a videophile, but Alan's product met my needs and I deemed it to be a fair price. Others may have different needs or don't think it is worth the price. There is no problem with that...just discuss it in another thread devoted to other solutions that do not meet the D65/6500K standard.

Here is the true purpose of this thread: "Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only)" If there are other solutions out there other than Alan's that meet this standard then they SHOULD be discussed in this thread. If they do not meet the D65/6500K standard, then they don't belong in here. Start a new thread...it's easy enough. :D

I am in no way a videophile, but Alan's product met my needs and I deemed it to be a fair price. Others may have different needs or don't think it is worth the price. There is no problem with that...just discuss it in another thread devoted to other solutions that do not meet the D65/6500K standard.

I have to agree. This thread is strictly worded for a specific purpose. It's a shame that there is not just a thread for Bias Lighting, opinions welcome as there really is no reason to have more than one thread on this subject.

Here is the true purpose of this thread: "Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only)" If there are other solutions out there other than Alan's that meet this standard then they SHOULD be discussed in this thread. If they do not meet the D65/6500K standard, then they don't belong in here. Start a new thread...it's easy enough. :D

I am in no way a videophile, but Alan's product met my needs and I deemed it to be a fair price. Others may have different needs or don't think it is worth the price. There is no problem with that...just discuss it in another thread devoted to other solutions that do not meet the D65/6500K standard.

I understand what it is titled. The confusion came when I read through the first 15 pages or so, got an idea, and then skipped to the end.


I guess I was under the impression that the due to those postings it was open to all bias lighting. Like I said, that was the whole point of the first post in the thread.

I see the topic has since changed so I will take your suggestion and start a different thread.

Didn't know the titles of the thread could be changed after it has been started.

But it seems that this thread started out as the type of thread your suggesting I create. So I hope you guys understand the confusion.

Regards

The title of this thread was changed by the moderator after the thread was moved to the display calibration section of the forum. It was an attempt to keep the topic focused on discussions that had merit in the context of imaging science, display standards and human perceptual factors.

I didn't start the thread but have contributed consistenly in an effort to supply educational information that is at the root of the technique of bias lighting. Wandering from the imaging science principles germane to the proper implementation of the technique only perpetuates misunderstanding and leads readers away from the benefits intended by the practice.

Yes, I have a web site that sells bias lighting solutions. It is also, as far as I have been able to determine, the only educational resource in the world focused so completely on the little known subject of viewing environment principles. Some readers of this forum may resent the fact that I benefit financially from the years of research and development in this area of study. Most appreciate my willingness to explain and promote these principles in this forum. The topic of viewing environment principles goes far beyond the relatively simple technique of video bias lighting.

My philosophy in this arena is that correct imaging science practice benefits everyone, as long as the principles are adhered to consistently. The farther one drifts from the ideal, the fewer benefits are realized. I will confront and correct the promotion of incorrect practice when I consider that such misinformation fosters confusion and unnecessary compromise of the essential principles at issue. Image fidelity and viewing comfort are the unavoidable benefits of the successful application of imaging science.

Perhaps a separate thread that promotes compromise and diminished practical results would be welcomed by some forum members. There is certainly space in this forum for such pursuits.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Check these out...

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50119407

Check these out...[/url]I think you are posting in the wrong thread. Check the title of this thread.

For those who want to talk about LED lighting there is an existing thread in "Theater Room Items & Accessories". Maybe someone more computer literate than me would post a link.

The Ikea solutions are the wrong color, both the multi-color version and the white variety. These were discussed fairly recently in this thread already.

Yes, I have a web site that sells bias lighting solutions. It is also, as far as I have been able to determine, the only educational resource in the world focused so completely on the little known subject of viewing environment principles.

Some readers of this forum may resent the fact that I benefit financially from the years of research and development in this area of study. Most appreciate my willingness to explain and promote these principles in this forum.

Perhaps a separate thread that promotes compromise and diminished practical results would be welcomed by some forum members. There is certainly space in this forum for such pursuits.




I have to agree. This thread is strictly worded for a specific purpose. It's a shame that there is not just a thread for Bias Lighting, opinions welcome as there really is no reason to have more than one thread on this subject.

No resentment for your financial gain here. I actually was considering purchasing these lights down the road. Although I was a little sketch after I saw the quality of the site, especially once you navigate away from cinemaquest to some third party odering page when you attempt to purchase.

That third party page looked like a site I wouldn't want to send my credit card info to. Poor quality pictures and just poorly designed page overall. Do you have any other payment methods? ie; pay pal

I just feel that like iresq said, there is no reason to have more than one thread on the subject.

If people choose to post alternatives I think that is just as helpful as "The only Educational Resource in the World". lol

Let them know what you think, but don't discourage them from sharing ideas on "the little known subject of viewing enviroment priciples". Maybe we can get the moderator to open it back up to all Bias lighting discussions and stop the monopoly.

Maybe we can get the moderator to open it back up to all Bias lighting discussions and stop the monopoly.You might also get the moderator to delete off topic posts. ;)