swamp,

this thread was modded to be dedicated to those looking for the standard 6500k bias lighting, yet you keep posting links and discussions of solutions other than what George is offering at CinemaQuest. even going as far as bashing his website. you also kept accusing him of pushing his own agenda.

bottom line is, if you want to find a solution other than CinemaQuest, post something that also adheres to the 6500k white standard, not the cheap knockoffs that are no better than putting a lamp behind the tv.

http://lionav.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=6 is the only other solution i've seen, and it's priced the same as George's offering.

I just feel that like iresq said, there is no reason to have more than one thread on the subject.

If people choose to post alternatives I think that is just as helpful as "The only Educational Resource in the World". lol

Let them know what you think, but don't discourage them from sharing ideas on "the little known subject of viewing enviroment priciples". Maybe we can get the moderator to open it back up to all Bias lighting discussions and stop the monopoly.

There is no monopoly. GeorgeAB happens to have one of the few solutions that is actually near 6500K with a high CRI. There are a few other sources for such lamps, but no one is really promoting nor packaging them in the manner that he is.

This thread was dedicated to educating people about BEST PRACTICE as defined by SMPTE and, regardless of what you think of GeorgeAB. Start a thread called Bias Lighting Alternatives for a more general discussion of options that do not necessarily conform the SMPTE standards. There is room for all sorts of discussion on AVS for these matters. It is no different than the distinction between CALIBRATION and SETTINGS that gets made all the time. There are lots of model specific threads where settings are shared, while discussions in the calibration forum try to stay focused on calibrating to standards.

I moderate for another forum, and one of the things that I have learned over years of participation and moderation is that forums are far more useful when threads reamain focused. There is always someone who wants to expand the scope of a thread or derail it, but it is the job of moderators to steer discussions in a more useful manner. Here, because of the size of AVS, mods are unable to do this like on some of the smaller forums, but the participants, who are often professionals dedicating much of their time, do a great job. They may catch flak for it from those looking for something for nothing and trying to "do it on the cheap," but the contribution in time and effort benefits many, including those that criticize them.

Does anyone here know what the black plastic stuff is in the
Ideal-Lume standard's baffle that rotates for light output?

Reason I ask is because I need a wider piece. Or what else can
I do to cover more of the light? What material will work?

thanks

I received your e-mail. We'll send you what you requested. The material is a special film developed for Polaroid by DuPont. It was specifically designed for total light blocking with limited out-gassing properties. We were told it's no longer in production. Fortunately, we located a partial roll several years ago.

:) Cool. I had no idea someone from Cinemaquest is right here.

Thanks George, I appreciate it. :)

Any recommendations on which of Georges lamps to put behind my 61" DLP? Not sure if I need one or two.....Thanks.

Any recommendations on which of Georges lamps to put behind my 61" DLP? Not sure if I need one or two.....Thanks.

i think you want to go with 2 for 60".

This issue has been discussed numerous times throughout the thread. Unless the wall is unusually dark, one light is sufficient. We have had people with white walls and 73" RPTVs tell us one is perfect. Fluorescents put out a lot of light for their size and wattage rating.

i think you want to go with 2 for 60".

This issue has been discussed numerous times throughout the thread. Unless the wall is unusually dark, one light is sufficient. We have had people with white walls and 73" RPTVs tell us one is perfect. Fluorescents put out a lot of light for their size and wattage rating.

Thanks to both of you.

OMG !!!

Your guys are so cheap,after spending between 2k-4k on the HDTV set alone,plus TV stand or wall mount kit/wires/surround sound/calibration etc...

Want to find cheaper ways not to spend $70.00 with shipping on the proper bias light from George ?

Just ordered my Ideal-Lume Standard today.

By that same logic, one may also figure "I spent $4000 on my Plasma, what's $200 on a Monster HDMI cable?" I hate those kinds of statements. That's the kind of thing you get from big-box sales-dweebs. Nothing wrong with a light that's not 6500K or not exactly 10% of light output or whatever. Who cares? The guy pushing his product all over the forum certainly cares. Anyone willing to throw this "science" to the wind and just enjoy a cheap $26 Home Depot LED rope-light will be blissfully happy doing so.

Well I'm not that crazy to buy a $200.00 Monster,I'm very happy with my $14.00 from Blue Jeans Cable:D

Who cares?
The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE)
The International Organization for Standardization (ISO)
The International Telecommunications Union (ITU)
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Industrial Light and Magic (ILM)
The Imaging Science Foundation (ISF)
THX, Ltd.
Electronic Arts (EA)
by deluxe
Microsoft Corp.
Image Entertainment
Universal Studios
PostWorks
Runco
Joe Kane Productiions
Ovation Multimedia
DisplayMate Technologies
CNET Labs
Stewart Filmscreen
E-Film
Radical Games
Factor5 Studios
High Moon Studios
CinRam
Rev13 Films
Advanced Television Evaluation Lab- Communications Research Centre- Canada
Apple Corp.
Filet Post Production
Post and Beam
Cheyenne Mtn. Entertainment
Zombie Studios
CBS
Deluxe Digital Studios
Splice Here
Slant Six Games
New Hat LLC
Samsung Germany
Digital Film Lab- Denmark
etc., etc.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Nothing wrong with a light that's not 6500K or not exactly 10% of light output or whatever. Who cares?Anyone who understands the title of this thread, and subscribes to this thread in order to get that information cares.

we need a mod in here and get rid of the posts and posters who have no interest in accurate 6500K lighting.

some of the people here are plain trolling.

That's what the "Report Post" icon is for in the lower left corner of each post.

we need a mod in here and get rid of the posts and posters who have no interest in accurate 6500K lighting.

some of the people here are plain trolling.The moderators can't watch every thread. If there are "off topic" posts that disrupt a thread, or if there are personal attacks, then use the "report" button to get a moderator's attention. It's the little red triangle in the lower left corner of each post.

The moderators request that members avoid arguing with such posters.

posts deleted/ some members banned from thread

seriously: if you are not here for the exact topic of this thread....please move on

I have had an Ideal-Lume behind my Samsung HLT6187S for about a year now and have really loved it. However, just tonight it suddenly stopped working. I popped in the spare bulb that came with the set and it still doesn't work. It seems to have just suddenly died. Any idea on how I might fix this? Thanks guys.

*edit. Well it was purchased on Jan 16th last year so I'll have to give them a call tomorrow while it's still under warranty!

Send us an e-mail and we'll arrange replacement of the fixture under warranty.

My walls are painted a very dark green and my pz800 fits snuggly in a black entertainment center. Will bias lighting help me? Or... Will the green color of the wall make my tv appear green. Sorry for my ignorance on the subject. My tv already has a warm green hue to it, so I don't want the green to explode. Thanks in advance.

It's not clear to me how your setup is arranged. Can you supply a photo? This article may help explain more detail about the challenges you might be facing: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

dabear I'm not sure about what dark green walls will do to your color perception but I can tell you that I definitely have reduced eye strain with the bias lighting which is my favorite thing about it. I have a light blue (sort of close to a gray) color on the wall though which is obviously very different than a dark green.

Will the bias lighting improve the depth or quality of the picture by improving the black levels as I have heard, or is bias lighting mainly used for eye strain. My pz800 in THX mode is not very bright and does not strain my eyes. Will bias lighting still be worth it to me. Due to my dark tv, will it have an adverse affect on my viewing?

As for providing a pic, I will try to do that, but in the meantime, my tv is almost completely encased by a huge black entertainment center. So my tv is surrounded by black except for a small 1-2 inch gap around the tv, which reveals my dark green walls.

Reducing eye strain and improving black perception are one and the same. You will see improvement ss long as:

1. the bias lighting is the only source of light besides the display
2. it is setup to allow the correct amount of light on the wall.

dachness,

Thanks for the info. Will 1-2 inches around the tv provide enough light around the wall for my 58 inch pz800?

You mean around the exterior of the display(the portion that will be filled with light)?

I would think so. If that is your only question holding you back, you may as well call them and ask. Then based on their response decide whether or not to place an order.

Just received the Ideal-Lume standard backlight. Here a pic of the Pioneer 6020FD with the backlight, with some foreground room light:

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/backlightfinal.jpg

And here with backlight in the dark

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/backlight.jpg

Will 1-2 inches around the tv provide enough light around the wall for my 58 inch pz800?
That's not much space. You might get a little benefit from using a bias light in this case but there's no way to really judge without trying it for a while. The illuminated green wall would actually subtract some green from your perception of the image on the screen.

just got idealume standard. didnt get any velcro with it for some reason. how do you mount it to get an even amount of light all the way around. also i thought there would be some sort of switch that you turn down to dim the light, not a black piece of plastic that rotates around the light. i cannot seem to get even lighting all the way around like the picture above.

just got idealume standard. didnt get any velcro with it for some reason. how do you mount it to get an even amount of light all the way around. also i thought there would be some sort of switch that you turn down to dim the light, not a black piece of plastic that rotates around the light. i cannot seem to get even lighting all the way around like the picture above.

Hi. Here's couple of pic to show how I mounted mine. You can pick up some industrial grade velcro from home depot.


http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/light2.jpg

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/light.jpg

P.S. I also thought it would have a dimmer dial, but oh well. The plastic baffle is alright, pretty much gets the job done. But to adjust the amount of light output, you sacrifice some controls over directionality of the light emitted.

This forum and thread are not intended to serve as a substitute for any manufacturer's customer service department. Please correspond with us directly to enable us to best handle your needs and maintain a correspondence file to track your order and service history.

That aside, full-range electrical dimming of fluorescents is very expensive. It requires special dimming ballasts and special dimming controllers. Instead, we install a rotating mechanical baffle tube around the lamp (bulb) to regulate the amount and directionality of the light. Rotating the entire fixture also helps with dimming and direction. These principles can and have been applied to other types of lighting installations by individuals and other manufacturers. Some experimentation prior to permanent attachment is recommended to arrive at the best overall effect.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Velcro mount on my LED DLP. I have a piece on the top side now too keeping it from slouching.

The light is not this top heavy either. I adjusted that after this photo was taken. It's also not this green looking. I have a very weak camera. :)

Is there an Australian Distributor for this product as the delivery fee is very pricey?

If there isn't an Aust Distributor what form of USPS International delivery is it sent as it is not specified when purchasing, just USPS International?
Is it Global Express, Express, Priority or First Class Mail?

Thanks,
Brett

Please send this question to our company e-mail. Thank you.

We use the industrial grade, high temperature Velcro in our products. As stated in the accompanying installation information packed with the product, it is not universally applicable in every installation.

You are not missing much. Unless you have a perfectly flat surface that takes to adhesive and proper air circulation to keep things from heating up, you will need the Heavy Duty Velcro as noted in several of the posts on this thread. It will cost you less than $10 and will save you the possibility of the fixture (or cover) breaking when the lamp finally falls otherwise.

The bad news is that 1 package will give you enough Velcro for about 25 idealumes :D

+1, mine lasted for about 5 days. Discovered yesterday morning that the lamp fell over :mad:, lucky for me there was a bunch of wires in the back that cushioned the fall so it didn't break. The industrial strength velcro from home depot is working great so far :)

Compare and contrast, first pic-->velcro from ideal-lume, second pic-->velcro from home depot

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/velcro1.jpg http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/velcro2.jpg

I recommend that you use the velcro for the entire length of the unit if possible. That way it stays rigid and won't tilt down. I ran out of them so its missing slightly in the middle as you can see from the second picture above. Also, after sticking them on, let the glue on the back of the velcro dry for at least 12 hours before you attach the lamp unit. Adhesive reaches maximum strength after 24 hrs.

Here's another pic with the backlight. Light appeared a little brighter in the picture due to camera settings.

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/lightsmall.jpg

I'll look into it again. When we did our first R&D on Velcro options, it was what we bought at Home Depot that we liked and sought a match for. Our supplier had the same stuff in long rolls. We've used the same material ever since.

The photo looks like the same stuff, only the customer used a continuous length instead of three pieces. We also suggest mounting it on the flat side of the fixture, as an alternative to the bottom. The cantilevered weight bearing as shown in the photo places more pulling stress on the Velcro.

I've been going back and forth regarding bias lighting. I want it...no doubt about that. Originally, I had planned on purchasing a Kuro (6020) and application of the ideal-lume panelight seemed very simple. Instead however, I purchased a Samsung 61" LED DLP. The sloped backing on the rear leaves me a bit concerned about how exactly to attach the light or lights and still achieve a uniform glow around the TV.

Also, I've read here in the thread that one light should be sufficient for a TV this size, but that the color/shade of the wall should be considered. My wall is an earth-tone...

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1940/p9070398ff9.jpg

I feel fairly confident that one light should do, rather than two. Do you folks agree?

most of us i believe simply plug the fixture into our receiver, so when the receiver turns on and off the backlight follows.
I was thinking of doing this, but I wasn't sure how much the receiver can handle as far as power to that outlet is concerned. I didn't want to overload it and screw something up. Now that I look, it says that equipment plugged into it should not exceed 100W. I know nothing about electricity other than the fact that I don't want to screw with it. Would the receiver be able to handle one or two lights?

One light should be sufficient. Placement should be experimented with before permanently mounting it. If more light is required than it provides out of the box, try removing the black light blocking film from the baffle tube entirely. Keep the clear tube on the lamp. It provides a measure of color correction. We recommend only using the diffusion lens if needed for impact protection. It can improve light distribution but at the expense of a slight reduction in brightness, directional control, and dimming effectiveness. The Ideal-Lume is 13 Watts each fixture. Most of our customers over the last 10 years have RPTVs with slanted cabinet backs.

One light should be sufficient. Placement should be experimented with before permanently mounting it. If more light is required than it provides out of the box, try removing the black light blocking film from the baffle tube entirely. Keep the clear tube on the lamp. It provides a measure of color correction. We recommend only using the diffusion lens if needed for impact protection. It can improve light distribution but at the expense of a slight reduction in brightness, directional control, and dimming effectiveness. The Ideal-Lume is 13 Watts each fixture. Most of our customers over the last 10 years have RPTVs with slanted cabinet backs.
Thank you George. Much appreciated.

Please send this question to our company e-mail. Thank you.

I sent the email to your company on Monday and haven't received a reply yet?
I used this email address- info@cinemaquestinc.com
Is there another email address to use?

Thanks,
Brett

I don't know why there is this delay. You used the correct e-mail address. Please try resending. I'm in Las Vegas supporting the THX Video Calibration class. We have used USPS International over the years for all shipments outside the US, unless special arrangements are made for another method. It's the least expensive means and we have relatively few problems with it. My shipping guy may know more detail about USPS International. If you fill out the online order form, it will calculate the rate for that method by default. Please accept my apology for the wait.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I'm planning on purchasing an Ideal-Lume, but wanted to get some professional opinions from you first George (if you don't mind).

I have a 56" DLP TV, where the screen is 21.25" from the wall (back of the panel is 5" from the wall). In the room where it is set up, the wall extends out to the right of the TV like normal, but there is a closet door to the immediate left of the display. I know the location is not ideal (the entire room isn't!), but it is what it is. Would the drastic color difference of the wall paint and closet door cause a harmful effect in the bias lighting? Or would that pose no issue?

The wall is painted a Rosewood Red color and the door and door frame are white. Also, because of the wall color, would 1 light work or would 2 be ideal? I honestly don't want too bright of a light forming around the set. What I'm going for is a noticeable, yet subtle glow that still allows the light to be used for it's main purpose, so if 1 light should be able to produce those results in my situation then that would be the best solution for me.

Here is a picture so you can get a better idea.

http://i42.tinypic.com/so0i77.jpg

Thanks in advance!

You have some challenges to overcome to implement bias lighting in a balanced manner. I would suggest the Panelight model, since it has 2 lights in it. You could place them near the outer edges of the back of the TV cabinet. Try orienting them vertically and dim the illumination down differently to attempt compensation for the dramatic differences in background color.

Yours is a far from ideal application but some benefits will still be realized from the technique. Perhaps at some point you could install neutral colored drapes to cover the wall and door when conducting critical viewing sessions, such as a favorite movie at night. Bias lighting can't solve every room problem. At some point, compromises may have to remain for whatever prevailing priority or circumstance. One day you may be able to provide a more dedicated viewing environment. If you haven't yet, reading this article may help explain the issues you are facing: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

I received your e-mail. We'll send you what you requested. The material is a special film developed for Polaroid by DuPont. It was specifically designed for total light blocking with limited out-gassing properties. We were told it's no longer in production. Fortunately, we located a partial roll several years ago.


Ok, its been more than 2 weeks now and ive still have not gotten anything from you. This Ideal-Lume sits collecting dust.

Ive tried emailing at your CinemaQuest website and I get ...

Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

You did not respond to my PM either.

Please respond George , id like to get this taken care of in a decent manner.

I have been out of town since the 7th and returned late last night. You have a PM.

Alan, I got your PM , thanks for getting back to me.


I got home this evening and hooked on my doorknob with a rubberband is
the cardboard tube you sent me.






Thanks alot Alan , I appreciate it.

Alan , can your give me some links to pictures of a few properly set up bias lights. So I can get a better idea what to shoot for. That pictures a few posts above from sheedoe looks a little hot up top, is it not? ( the shadows)

Sheedoe's got the right idea. The hot spot above should be avoided if possible. Sometimes rotating the fixture (in addition to the baffle) to block more light can tweak the distribution of the illumination better. Photos are difficult to communicate exactly how it looks in the room. There are a wide variety of acceptable images posted throughout this thread which you can scan back through to view.

Shadows are inevitable if there are objects in the light path. Achieving the perfect spread of light is not required to get the intended benefits of the technique. You should be concentrating on the screen after all. The overall aesthetic may not be ideal and still realize the technical merits. There are just so many variables in individual installations.

That pictures a few posts above from sheedoe looks a little hot up top, is it not? ( the shadows)

Let it be known that I've intentionally set the backlight brighter and set the camera to appropriate settings to enhance the effect of the light. In my normal setup, I have the light dimmed quite a bit, as SMPTE specifies less than 10%. As George said, the hot spot can be minimized by rotating the baffel, but it cannot be totally eliminated unless you have a rope light going evenly around the panel (which I don't think is widely available @ D65/6500K white). Here's a more realistic pic of my normal setup.

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/backlight.jpg

That's a much better representation of the proper effect. Thanks.

Generally speaking, is bias lighting recommended around front projection screens?

Only in very rare circumstances. Great care would need to be exercised in the design of the room to prevent the biasing illumination from reflecting off of room surfaces back onto the screen. If one understands the fundamental principles involved in the technique of bias lighting (the theory), the details of when, where, and how to implement it will become much more clear (the practice).

George,
I was reading my latest copy of HT Magazine, and read that in the HDTV shootout, they were using your Ideal Lume backlights. :D
I've still got one of the older units, using the neutral density filters. Will look forward to getting the new version in the next couple of months. I like the newer fixture design as well. :)

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/sheedoe/lightsmall.jpg

Where did you get the TrueHD and DTS signs?

GeorgeAB, I just wanted to thank you, my bias lighting is pretty close to perfect now. :)

BEFORE;
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/y.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/P6100005.jpg




AFTER;
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/P6290002.jpg?t=1232474971

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/P6290012.jpg?t=1232474640

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/P6290015.jpg?t=1232474664

Where did you get the TrueHD and DTS signs?

You might try here..............
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=true+hd+sign%5C&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Where did you get the TrueHD and DTS signs?

You've got PM.

You've got PM.

Oh, I see.. Its a secret eh? :D

Oh, I see.. Its a secret eh? :D

No secret. I just don't like to use this forum as an advertisement board :D.

GeorgeAB, I just wanted to thank you, my bias lighting is pretty close to perfect now.
You're welcome. Thanks for posting the pics. The final results are an excellent example.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Have a HL67a750 arriving in a few days for the living room. We have a LN46a650 in the bedroom. All the walls are white. Sounds like each TV just needs a Ideal-Lume Standard.

Will the Ideal-Lume Standard fit and work ok behind this setup?

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/8485/img0392go0.jpg

The Panelight model is recommended for wall mounted panels. Stand mounted TVs have space behind them for one light to spread out evenly on the wall. The two lights in the Panelight provide for illumination to come from the two sides or top and bottom, giving you better distribution around the wall mount bracket. There is a photo on our site of two lights behind the sides of a 60" panel mounted over a fireplace, as an example of how the illumination is distributed: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/images.htm .

CYRON sells 6500K LED lighting. I have been very pleased with mine. I had used an IDEAL LUME since 2002 and swithed to the CYRON lighting last year since I had trouble getting even distribution in my setup since switching to DLP a few years ago. The CYRON lighting solved my problem since they were lighter, smaller, and could easily be placed directly on the back of the TV. And they specifically sell a version that is 6500K.

http://www.cyron.com/

So does anyone have any suggestions on where to find some fairly priced Bias lighting? I've tried two different solutions, and still not fully satisfied. I'm not a perfectionist, and don't feel that the spectrum of light being 100% accurate is going to reduce my enjoyment I get from my TV. I also don't feel the need to re-paint the wall with the TV mounted on it and install a piece of shag carpet behind my mount.

But I do feel that, like just about everyone, I could benefit from some type of Bias lighting and the improvement it gives the picture. So here's what i've tried...

I first purchased some LED Rope Lights from Home Depot, cool white, and attached them around the back recessed part of the set. To me this was the only way to get the spread of light on the wall that I was looking for, because it circled the whole back of the TV.

The Rope Lights just aren't anywhere close to the right spectrum. I would like as close to 6500k as I can get (closest flourescent I saw at HomeDepot was Philips Natural Daylight Bulb at 5000k). American Lighting sells some LED Rope Kits, that claim they are 6500k, but they look identical to the one's I already have, and I want to say they might be the exact same ones. But not at home to check the packaging.

Next I tried a 24" Flourescent tube light behind the TV (similar to the 'Ideal Lume' fixtures) right above the wall mount. This gave off what appeared to be close to the right color light, but way too bright, and too limited on where the light would shine due to the bulb placement.

I would have to buy at least two, possibly four of these tube lights to get the light to spread correctly on the wall behind the set. Two 24" on the top and bottom of the set horiz, and two 12" on each side vertically.

But this is a little much, and would probably be way too bright. Just wondering if anyone had experimented with any other alternatives, and would care to offer any insight.

Like I said, i'm not going for the 'ideal lume', when I can purchase something very similar for like $12. I wouldn't mind spending around $50 or so to be able to call it done. Hope this is the right place for this, everyone here seems pretty well rounded when it comes to this subject, and I am new, so any feedback would be appreciated.

Only in very rare circumstances. Great care would need to be exercised in the design of the room to prevent the biasing illumination from reflecting off of room surfaces back onto the screen. If one understands the fundamental principles involved in the technique of bias lighting (the theory), the details of when, where, and how to implement it will become much more clear (the practice).

So i fwe had a room with nice dark and neutral and flat-finish walls/ceilings/floors which were all, say 3' or more from the edges of the screen... and perfectly blacked out and nonreflective windows...

Or am I completely clueless here?

I ordered the Ideal-Lume Standard for my HL67a750. I will also try it out on my LN46a650 before ordering anything for the LCD. I figure I can just lay it on top of the wall mount to see how it looks w/ Samsungs TOC.

Thanks George!

The Cyron products have been discussed several times previously in this thread. The form factor of their products is attractive. They claimed their white LED solution to be 6500K but it was about 7500K. I measured the "Pro" model sample they sent me. I told the company that I would be interested in representing their products if they could improve the color of their LEDs. My offer still stands with them.

I have invested in samples from many LED solutions manufacturers over recent years who claim the right color temperature. If they would measure correctly, I would become a dealer for them. When someone can actually produce a 6500K LED product, I'll jump all over it. My online store offers many products I don't manufacture, but all of them perform as claimed.

Most consumers lack any method to verify the color performance claims of lighting products. I do, and have made the effort to confirm the claims of products that have been suggested in this forum. There are plenty of forum members who have calibration instruments (spectroradiometers with suitable software) also capable of doing the same.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

So i fwe had a room with nice dark and neutral and flat-finish walls/ceilings/floors which were all, say 3' or more from the edges of the screen... and perfectly blacked out and nonreflective windows...

Or am I completely clueless here?
How bright (in footlamberts or candellas per square meter) is the image your projector produces on your screen? How wide is the screen? How far do you sit from it? Are you currently experiencing eye strain from your system? Are you wanting to improve perceived contrast and black levels? Is there any other reason you want to implement bias lighting behind your screen?

How bright (in footlamberts or candellas per square meter) is the image your projector produces on your screen? How wide is the screen? How far do you sit from it? Are you currently experiencing eye strain from your system? Are you wanting to improve perceived contrast and black levels? Is there any other reason you want to implement bias lighting behind your screen?

At the moment, the answer to most of these is "I dunno" because I don't have a setup currently, am looking into the possibility of setting something up in the clubhouse of a friend's communnity as a favor... as I was thinking about the possible solutions to what they want, thought of the question... So...

I thought bias lighting was always recommended behind self-contained displays, at roughly 10% luminance of the peak output of the display... (true/false?) and then wondered if the same was true of FPs...

BTW I'm willing to accept as much education as you're willing to give... even though I thought I'd read all the docs out there on this, it appears much of it may not have sunk in...

As I suspected.;) Keep studying. Bias lighting is recommended for smaller images and/or very bright images. Front projection systems tend to be larger and dimmer than direct-view type displays. In a front projection setup, improving the perception of black levels and contrast ratio would be better accomplished with screen masking than back lighting the screen. There are many more variables unique to front projection system design than most consumers and hobbyists realize.

A comprehensive understanding of imaging science fundamentals is necessary to properly design a variety of home theater type systems. Proficiency and excellence in any field require aptitude, desire, discipline, formal study, practical experience, etc. It's a rare occasion when an amateur can achieve equivalent results without paying such dues. Wishful thinking and hasty assumptions are a poor substitute for study and experience.

If your friend's community clubhouse wants a permanent installation, they should hire a professional. If the installation will be temporary and not used for critical viewing sessions of movies, such attention to detail would likely be unnecessary.

That was a little harsh...;) I realized I was delving into an area I don't know about so I asked the question... not like I said "I installed this like I'm supposed to and it looks worse with it, what gives?"...

There was nothing at all harsh about my post. I was speaking largely in general terms and you have taken what was general too personally. If the shoe fits, wear it. This is a public forum, read by many more people than just you and I.
The thread is a "sticky" in order to provide ongoing educational benefit to lots of folks who subscribe to it, as well as new readers unfamiliar with viewing environment issues, human perceptual factors and proper video system design. When I am asked questions by individuals, my responses will often include general observations, commentary and elaborations that apply generally to the issue being discussed. I'm sorry if what I said upset or offended you. That was not my intent at all.

GeorgeAB & everyone else,

I just recently learned of bias lighting and I'm a relative novice when it comes to Home Theater but I appreciate what you and others have brought to the table in terms of knowledge to this forum.

I will definitely explore this on my own. In the meantime, generally speaking, is it recommended to use bias lighting with DLP sets like the Samsung HL67A750 in a home environment? I am interested in having the best HD picture possible with the set I have with a modest budget.

Bias lighting is recommended for all self-contained televisions, which tend to be much brighter than front projection and two-piece rear projection displays.

Any study of bias lighting, and related electronic display viewing environment theory and practice, would do well to start with this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

Any study of bias lighting, and related electronic display viewing environment theory and practice, would do well to start with this article: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

Thank you, sir. I appreciate the help.

I guess I should have had the color temp of the Cyron lights measured during one of my three calibrations last year.

The Cyron products have been discussed several times previously in this thread. The form factor of their products is attractive. They claimed their white LED solution to be 6500K but it was about 7500K. I measured the "Pro" model sample they sent me. I told the company that I would be interested in representing their products if they could improve the color of their LEDs. My offer still stands with them.

I have invested in samples from many LED solutions manufacturers over recent years who claim the right color temperature. If they would measure correctly, I would become a dealer for them. When someone can actually produce a 6500K LED product, I'll jump all over it. My online store offers many products I don't manufacture, but all of them perform as claimed.

Most consumers lack any method to verify the color performance claims of lighting products. I do, and have made the effort to confirm the claims of products that have been suggested in this forum. There are plenty of forum members who have calibration instruments (spectroradiometers with suitable software) also capable of doing the same.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

There was nothing at all harsh about my post. I was speaking largely in general terms and you have taken what was general too personally. If the shoe fits, wear it. This is a public forum, read by many more people than just you and I.
The thread is a "sticky" in order to provide ongoing educational benefit to lots of folks who subscribe to it, as well as new readers unfamiliar with viewing environment issues, human perceptual factors and proper video system design. When I am asked questions by individuals, my responses will often include general observations, commentary and elaborations that apply generally to the issue being discussed. I'm sorry if what I said upset or offended you. That was not my intent at all.

Well, I thank you for the advice and education, and the additional I'm sure you will provide me in the future, and I'll offer my apologies if I got over-sensitive...

I guess I should have had the color temp of the Cyron lights measured during one of my three calibrations last year.
This procedure requires a measuring environment that is genuinely neutral. No color should be allowed to reflect back from surrounding surfaces or clothing. The area should also have no other light source entering the test. Some types of calibration instruments have trouble with the high rate of operating frequency from fluorescents and LEDs. The engineers at GretagMacbeth (now XRite) recommended I use their spectroradiometer by bouncing the illumination off of a truly neutral surface, such as a photo gray card or Munsell neutral notation sample.

Well after reading all the posts I finally went out and bought a 6500k bulb to try it out, I figured the worst that could happen is that it wouldn't make a huge improvement and I would only be out like 10 bucks( I already had a mount for it). My display is a rear projection Sony KDS50A3000. Well I can honestly say that is has been one of the best things that I have ever done for my set-up! After installing it I popped in underworld(to see if it would improve perceived black level) and all I can say is wow. I couldn't believe the difference it made. My black levels weren't bad before before but adding the backlight made even deeper. Colors seemed to pop more as well. To see if I was truly seeing a difference I turned the light off and you could clearly see the difference having the backlight made.

Thank you AVS for making my viewing experience that much better!

Roque

Just a quick question to which I think I know the answer. I have a Pioneer Elite PRO 101-FD. The black levels a great, of course. In very limited circumstances, like white text on pure black background (credits, some transition scenes), I will see very limited "glow" of the blacks. In general viewing of blu-rays, etc., the black bars blend right into the bezel for night-time viewing.

My room is painted a very faint yellow. I would say that it is one or two notches removed from an "off-white" yellow shade. So, it isn't a deep color by any means. I certainly don't find it problematic for my daytime viewing.

My television is mounted on a stand in the corner. The stand is pictured here:

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/42-inch-4-in-1-TV-Stand-w-Removable-Mount-Solid-Wood-Front/3705436/product.html

The center of the screen is 32 inches away from the actual corner (the back of the mount if only 24 inches at this same point), and the edges of the screen, are 8 inches away from the walls.

So, I am just a home user who wants to make the best of my new TV, not someone building a dedicated HT room, etc. The wall color is not changing. The television position is unlikely to change much.

My assumptions are that you will say:
- the color is not ideal, but if it is not going to change, I should just get an ideal-lume
- color compensation is too hard to figure out without a major undertaking, so it isn't worth doing, and you certainly can't tell me without seeing it in person.
- a corner placement is not necessarily ideal, but will work
- a single light is enough for a 50" flat-screen
- with the light will be better than without, because I will suffer less eye fatigue, and my black levels should be more consistent

So, please let me know if these are correct assumptions.

The only thing I am pretty unsure about is how I should mount the light(s). Should I try to get it closer to screen, basically on the back of the mount, etc. My guess would be on the back of the mount for two reasons: the distance (I think it is closer to your ideal, even though it is a corner), and better light distribution.

Since my center channel speaker is intended to go under the screen, and there is not going to be much room between the bezel and the speaker (not something I can easily change), I already assume that there will be little or no light on the underside of the screen that shows through. I assume that this will be of limited importance.

Thank you for this thread. I look forward to taking my setup to the next level.

You give me hope!:D Try mounting the light vertically, temporarily, to see if you get good distribution of the illumination on the wall surfaces. Horizontal may work better but check the vertical orientation first. Attach it permanently when you arrive at the best location. Your wall coloration is minimal.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well after reading all the posts I finally went out and bought a 6500k bulb to try it out, I figured the worst that could happen is that it wouldn't make a huge improvement and I would only be out like 10 bucks( I already had a mount for it). My display is a rear projection Sony KDS50A3000. Well I can honestly say that is has been one of the best things that I have ever done for my set-up! After installing it I popped in underworld(to see if it would improve perceived black level) and all I can say is wow. I couldn't believe the difference it made. My black levels weren't bad before before but adding the backlight made even deeper. Colors seemed to pop more as well. To see if I was truly seeing a difference I turned the light off and you could clearly see the difference having the backlight made.

Thank you AVS for making my viewing experience that much better!

Roque
Following imaging science principles, display industry standards and practices, applying human perceptual factors research, will invariably enhance anyone's viewing experience.

I should add: improving your viewing experience effectively increases the value of every video component purchased, the time devoted to viewing sessions, and every bit of video programming viewed on the system.

In the CinemaQuest documentation, http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm, it states that the screen should be located away from the wall behind. For me, I cannot pull out my 67" Samsung HL67A750 DLP much farther than it already is which is about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the wall at the farthest point. Furthermore, the back of the TV is sloped.

To get even distribution of light on all three sides of the set, I'm thinking I would need to place the lamp horizontally on the back of the unit near the vertical center line. If I did that, there would be no more than a foot distance from the lamp to the wall.

Would the Ideal-Lume Standard product be sufficient or should I purchase the Ideal-Lume Panelight 2-lamp product which is designed for wall mounted screens?

I've been using Eliab since 2001. I won't have him back until late this year(unless I get another display). But hopefully I'll be able to get him to measure Cyron lights I'm using.

In the CinemaQuest documentation, http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm, it states that the screen should be located away from the wall behind. For me, I cannot pull out my 67" Samsung HL67A750 DLP much farther than it already is which is about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the wall at the farthest point. Furthermore, the back of the TV is sloped.

To get even distribution of light on all three sides of the set, I'm thinking I would need to place the lamp horizontally on the back of the unit near the vertical center line. If I did that, there would be no more than a foot distance from the lamp to the wall.

Would the Ideal-Lume Standard product be sufficient or should I purchase the Ideal-Lume Panelight 2-lamp product which is designed for wall mounted screens?
One foot is plenty for just using one lamp.

That would have involved the use of a cosine receptor which very few calibrators have for their measuring devices. Furthermore, the measuring device should be a very good SpectraRadioMeter so you can take a look at the Spectral Output.

It appears from your url that avical (Eliab) did your calibrations and I suspect he would have a cosine receptor (and the Photo Research unit) so you might have been able to accomplish this, though many others could not.
You're talking about lab-grade precision. That won't be necessary for bias lighting. At best, this topic is in the realm of "just noticeable differences" and tolerances don't have to be so strict.

The Cyron "Pro" sample sent to me was off by 1,000 Kelvins. Industries that rely on consistent color comparison by eye, under artificial ambient light, only recommend a minimum CRI of 90 out of 100. A typical photo gray card or Munsell neutral sample is plenty close enough for a reference. An EyeOne Pro should be sufficient for instrumentation.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

One foot is plenty for just using one lamp..

Thanks, George! I just ordered the Ideal-Lume Standard. I'll report back on how well it works.

There is no authoritative, specific, Kelvin tolerance range published for bias lighting that I am aware of. The deviation tolerance for primaries from Rec. 709 is off topic for this thread.

"Correct" is CIE D65. For a professional monitor environment, SMPTE RP166- 5.3 states, "The reflective surround should be illuminated with a light quality closely matching illuminant D65." No tolerances are given.

Sample to sample swings in color from our various lamps over the years have ranged about +/- 500K. Several independent readings from customers, in several nations, have reported better results than yours. I have seen readings similar to yours in some random samples. The exception has been the lamp we use in our Ideal-Lume Pro model. It's much more precise and consistent.

What instrument did you use, with what methodology, and under what ambient conditions? If you can find any tolerances stated in the technical literature for bias lighting, I would be happy to have the information. The closest I've come to anything is from the companion document, SMPTE RP167-A.14, which only states tolerances for SMPTE C primaries being +/- 0.005 x/y. Our Pro model performs within those tolerances from D65.

If you compare the spectral plot supplied by Beachcomber with that of one taken of the same lamp with an i1Pro the spectra is virtually identical. The only difference is that the i1Pro has poor bandwidth with 10nm/pixel spectral bandwidth it allows twice the light to reach the detector. This difference has the spectral distribution plot appear to have more energy across the spectral range then an instrument with better bandwidth such as the MicroSpec which was used.

What one can observe from the graph is that there is very little energy in the Red wavelength range and Blue wavelength range when compared to the CIE standard curve which I supplied in a previous post. These reduced values of Red and Blue are what cause the errors in the Ideal-Lume lamp from providing a better D65 color. CRI (color rendering index) for lamps is a very poor measurement of how a lamp actually performs and can be quite misleading to the ill-informed user. Even the CIE agrees that CRI is a poor methodology to use. For you to even have any degree of accuracy in a CRI measurement you must measure (14) patches of reference colors using the same lamp to calculate the CRI. Programs which supply a CRI value without performing these critical measurements are flawed by design.


Read the Criticisms and Resolutions segment of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

There are a number of flaws in the CRI formula which make it an especially unreliable methodology to use for assessment of fluorescent lamps amongst others!


What instrument, Methodology and test environment do you recommend to properly measure your Ideal-Lume lamps with?

Here is a link to a White paper on D65 Fluorescent lighting. Note the CIE response curve provided for the commercially available fluorescent lamp.

http://www.gtilite.com/gti-pdf/CMTN-2.PDF

Ideal-Lume Spectral Distribution Plot 1.0nm/pixel spectral resolution:

I have a "TV in the living room" setup rather than a "Home Theater" setup. I'd like to use bias lighting behind my new Panasonic Plasma 46". The wallpaper is slightly textured and a cream or very,very light khaki color. To make the bias light come out around 6500k after it bounces off that wallpaper should I use a light that's slightly shifted toward the blue, say 7500k to compensate for the not-white wall paper?

Please don't suggest changing the color behind the TV; it's not going to happen, according to SWMBO*.


*SWMBO -She Who Must Be Obeyed.

This issue has been discussed so many times previously in this thread, I'm not going to comment again. Please refer to the information already supplied. Is SWMBO also SWHCTLG&C*?

*She Who Has Ceased To Learn, Grow and Change

After reading alot of this thread I have a question about bias lighting. I have a 61in DLP tv in a media nook in my living room, the entire tv sits back inside the nook and the screen is flush with the wall There is about 2-3 inches of space on the sides and top of the tv and about 11 inches on the bottom where it sits on a stand. Would this type of lighting be of any benefit, or would it be too focused comming out arround those small spaces.
Thanks for the help.

Not the best setup but you should still realize some degree of benefit from the technique. It's plain to see that residential architects seldom realize what the best accommodation for optimum TV viewing conditions are. They are more concerned with other lifestyle issues in planning such a room. We should all be so blessed as to have a dedicated space for a home theater setup. Such compromises as yours leave many home entertainment hobbyists with less than ideal installation circumstances.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

After reading alot of this thread I have a question about bias lighting. I have a 61in DLP tv in a media nook in my living room, the entire tv sits back inside the nook and the screen is flush with the wall There is about 2-3 inches of space on the sides and top of the tv and about 11 inches on the bottom where it sits on a stand. Would this type of lighting be of any benefit, or would it be too focused comming out arround those small spaces.
Thanks for the help.

Some may disagree with this but its what I believe;

Everybody , regardless of set up can very much benefit from bias lighting
but it may take ALOT of tweaking to get it set up properly.

If you are patient and willing to possibly do ALOT of tweaking you will be rewarded.

And heck, even if you simply just cannot get it right even after lots and lots of tweaking, the excellent bias lights at Cinema Quest are cheap so
its worth trying at least.



It might be hard to believe this if you saw my bias light but I spent like 3 hours over a few weeks time before I got it right, LOL! :D

This issue has been discussed so many times previously in this thread, I'm not going to comment again. Please refer to the information already supplied. Is SWMBO also SWHCTLG&C*?

*She Who Has Ceased To Learn, Grow and Change


Well, George, the problem is you DID comment, in a most unhelpful and derogatory manner, as is all too frequently your style. You just couldn't resist. For an excellent example of one who has not learned, grown or changed, at least not for the better, take a long hard look in a mirror. I did search the thread, forum and internet before posting my question and none of the hits actually answered the question I was asking. They talked all around it but never actually answered it.

By all means be passionate about your topic but consider this: Your passion is not a general license for rudeness. I've decided to seek a product from a company other than yours - not because of the product but because of you.

Cheers!
SmokinLawyer

Well, George, the problem is you DID comment, in a most unhelpful and derogatory manner, as is all too frequently your style. You just couldn't resist. For an excellent example of one who has not learned, grown or changed, at least not for the better, take a long hard look in a mirror. I did search the thread, forum and internet before posting my question and none of the hits actually answered the question I was asking. They talked all around it but never actually answered it.

By all means be passionate about your topic but consider this: Your passion is not a general license for rudeness. I've decided to seek a product from a company other than yours - not because of the product but because of you.

Cheers!
SmokinLawyer

...except for the fact that the same question has actually been answered more than once. The search function really does work. Congrats on completely overreacting and good luck finding a product which comes close to George's...it won't happen.

I apologize for having offended you, SmokinLawyer. You're right. I had no business commenting on the lady you referred to. I'll endeavor to be more considerate in the future.

Your passion is not a general license for rudeness. I've decided to seek a product from a company other than yours - not because of the product but because of you.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that GeorgeAB was being deliberately rude. And with an apology in hand it would be a shame if you cut off your nose to spite your face.

The wallpaper is slightly textured and a cream or very,very light khaki color. To make the bias light come out around 6500k after it bounces off that wallpaper should I use a light that's slightly shifted toward the blue, say 7500k to compensate for the not-white wall paper?
Measurements would have to be taken to determine what could compensate in 'color space' correctly. There may be other colors in the mix to make the cream or khaki besides yellow. "Very, very light" coloration is likely not worth all the work it would take to make it appear better than simply using a high CRI 6500K illuminant.

...and good luck finding a product which comes close to George's...it won't happen.

really?!
I got a 6280K and 94.5 CRI bulb and a fixture to operate it in all for under $20

It may not be the "industry standard" (I don't know of anything in my HT that is noted as such) but it certainly does the job and I would assume "comes close" to a product that costs much more

really?!
I got a 6280K and 94.5 CRI bulb and a fixture to operate it in all for under $20

It may not be the "industry standard" (I don't know of anything in my HT that is noted as such) but it certainly does the job and I would assume "comes close" to a product that costs much more

An additional $40 over what you paid, for something professional and accurate...it's well worth it. How someone could spend so much on various components and then skimp on this for a cheap (and I don't mean that in a good way) alternative instead is beyond me.

$59.95. Wow! Watch out big spender...

The point is- you had to run around locating parts that work sufficiently well, assemble it yourself and figure out a method for adjusting the light. An assembled, purpose built, field tested and performance verified, thoroughly explained application instructions included, warrantied and supported product should cost more. Don't you think?:)

I would assume "comes close" to a product that costs much more

Well if you mean an Ideal-Lume I dunno. Frankly I didn't get a good feeling about how convenient the I-L until I had one in hand. All the facts are there (dimensions and ruler for scale) but I was still surprised how small it is. Maybe they should include the weight even though you see pictures of it velcro'd to the back of a panel. The complete I-L seems to weigh barely more than a T8 lamp. I have a standard T8 under counter fixture which seems small enough until you compare it to an I-L.

Anyway DIY: Fixture $20, lamp X 2 $40. Ah, already as much as the I-L standard! Dimming baffle ... let's say $15. Time spent fiddling $0-$100 depending on the value of your free time.

I'm just sayin ... you get what you pay for.

thanx for all the concern about my time and travels but since I "paid so much for my components" (not) I guess it shouldn't matter

by the way it was a simple trip, believe it or not I have a Menards and Home Depot right across the street from each other

George, I agree your solution should cost more given your investment in it

yes, I got what I paid for an am happy
don't know that I would be $50 happier if I went with another option but I guess I'll never need to know

ps. jrcorwin: I paid a lot for my car and filled it up with cheap gas to make the trip .... hope I didn't offend you and your sensibilities

thanx for all the concern about my time and travels but since I "paid so much for my components" (not) I guess it shouldn't matter

by the way it was a simple trip, believe it or not I have a Menards and Home Depot right across the street from each other

George, I agree your solution should cost more given your investment in it

yes, I got what I paid for an am happy
don't know that I would be $50 happier if I went with another option but I guess I'll never need to know

ps. jrcorwin: I paid a lot for my car and filled it up with cheap gas to make the trip .... hope I didn't offend you and your sensibilities
Did you pay more than $1,000 for your display? I'm sure you did, yet $60 was too much of an expense. :rolleyes:

Regardless, you get what you pay for. Which is an inferior product in your case...without a doubt.

really?!
I got a 6280K and 94.5 CRI bulb and a fixture to operate it in all for under $20

It may not be the "industry standard" (I don't know of anything in my HT that is noted as such) but it certainly does the job and I would assume "comes close" to a product that costs much more

Post the details on what you bought, please.

sorry lcaillo I had a few more pennies I needed to pinch before responding

fixture: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HJ75PW
bulb: http://lightbulbetc.com/15-Watt-Verilux-Instant-Sun-Fluorescent/M/B000P4P1G4.htm?traffic_src=froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

hope it may work as a solution for someone else

I might actually buy one of these bulbs, as well as th Phillips and GE bulbs (from Home Depot and Lowes) which are rated at 6500k and see what they really come out at. I can always take the HD and Lowes back.

As my off white room color brings the temp down on the wall around 4K anyway, if its higher than D65, it would be better for me.

You can always try this one: Ultra Sun Superdaylight Aquarium Bulb by Zoo Med ($14.99 at local pet store) 6500K, 98CRI (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=179&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=3&SearchContext=YTo1OntzOjQ6IlBhZ2UiO3M6MToiMCI7czo4OiJTZWFyY2 hJRCI7czoxOiIzIjtzOjEwOiJEYXRhYmFzZUlEIjtzOjE6IjIiO3M6NzoiSG VhZGluZyI7czo4OiJBcXVhcml1bSI7czo4OiJLZXl3b3JkcyI7czo4OiJMaW dodGluZyI7fQ==)

I have had good things happen with it.

(I'm dismayed to see the animus over this and I certainly hope I haven't done anything to promote it.)

I have a Home Depot T8 fixture with a Philips 6500K lamp. Total price about $25. For some folks this a good solution but I want to attach my bias light to the back of my panel and I don't want to light up the whole wall. For me T8 is right out.

So if you have the same needs (or desires) that I have the I-L is an excellent choice. If you want something similar but don't want to pay CQ then you can certainly find a 22" T5 mini-fluorescent fixture and a variety of lamps from 3000 to 7500K with a CRI from 70-98%. As I noted putting something together that's equivalent to the I-L standard is going to cost more.

Some seem to be a bit obsessive about the temp, speaking as if all 6500K lamps are the same, but they neglect the things that, in my mind, make the I-L worth it. The things I'm a bit obsessive about: weight, convenience, dimming, instant start.

By the way:
All the 13W T5 lamps I looked at (not so many) were rated for 10,000 hours
The Philips lamp is a lot greener than the I-L. Maybe just the ticket for yellow walls.
If I was going to DIY dim I'd use an opaque mesh.

Namaste.

If he got really got 6280K vs 5982K with the Ideal-Lume at a cheaper price, it appears he is more accurate in temp and also paid less.

How do you justify calling it inferior? Shouldn't one get more accurate with a higher price?
Also, if it last longer than 2000 hours, it will last longer than an Ideal-Lume based on my experience.
He didn't pay a higher price. He spent $20. He paid less for an inferior product. Basically, you get what you pay for. Another $40 for the Ideal-Lume would be a wise choice and investment.

If you don't want something accurate...you are defeating part of its purpose.

He didn't [pay] a higher price.

I believe you misread the post. The suggestion is that the "reported" 6280K lamp temperature is closer to 6500K than the "measured" 5982K temp of the I-L lamp. So the cheaper bulb is more "accurate" than the I-L lamp. Of course a fair comparison needs to include SPD.

I'm considering adding some bias lighting around my wall-mounted plasma. I'm seeing that a light temp of 65k is best for perceived picture enhancement, etc. Does it matter if my wall isn't white? Also how does different colored lighting come into play here? I was thinking about using red or blue or even a setup that can change colors. Thanks.

I was thinking about using red or blue or even a setup that can change colors. Thanks.

Just a heads-up that this is the CIE D65/6500K White Light Only thread. Non-white bias lighting is discussed elsewhere (search for rope lighting).

Just a heads-up that this is the CIE D65/6500K White Light Only thread. Non-white bias lighting is discussed elsewhere (search for rope lighting).

Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry about that. But where does it leave me if I use white lighting on a colored wall? Does that matter?

Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry about that. But where does it leave me if I use white lighting on a colored wall? Does that matter?
Same walls that are in the photos of the setup you have listed? You'll be fine. The Ideal-Lume will suit your needs.

T
Same walls that are in the photos of the setup you have listed? You'll be fine. The Ideal-Lume will suit your needs.

Yes, the tan in the photos. Thanks for the information. Do you have a link for Ideal-Lume? I Googled it, but all I came up with are a bunch or reviews, but nowhere to buy and no home page.

Nevermind-Found it. Thanks.

Yes, the tan in the photos. Thanks for the information. Do you have a link for Ideal-Lume?
You'll want the Panelight model since your panel is mounted. (It's the second product on the page)

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

You'll want the Panelight model since your panel is mounted. (It's the second product on the page)

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

Thanks for your help. It's much appreciated.

If I feel that the $20 solution is inferior...guess what...that's my opinion. Leave me to it.
I certainly think everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I certainly think everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Thank you and I certainly think that you are welcome to yours as well. How about joining me in deleting all of our off topic posts? We can clean the thread up and avoid having a moderator do it for us.

Yes, the tan in the photos. Thanks for the information. Do you have a link for Ideal-Lume? I Googled it, but all I came up with are a bunch or reviews, but nowhere to buy and no home page.

Nevermind-Found it. Thanks.Your wall color is very similar to mine. I have a wall mounted lcd and use the 2 light panelight setup and am very happy with it. I haven't taken measurements or tried other solutions, but to my eyes, it looks very good.

Murray

Your wall color is very similar to mine. I have a wall mounted lcd and use the 2 light panelight setup and am very happy with it. I haven't taken measurements or tried other solutions, but to my eyes, it looks very good.

Murray

Thanks for the information. This is something I'm still trying to make up my mind about. I'm not sure yet if I want to stick with while or go colored. I'd really like to use a color-changing setup and have the option for several colors, but the ones I've seen so far are a bit pricey.

If you are considering colored back lighting while watching TV, it should be with the understanding that image fidelity is impossible under those circumstances. This article explains why: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

If you are considering colored back lighting while watching TV, it should be with the understanding that image fidelity is impossible under those circumstances. This article explains why: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm .

Thanks. I'll check that out.

can anyone suggest a remote controlled light that I could control from the couch and turn on at night?

George, How will the IL standard look when I raise my wall mounted center speaker up to the proper level for the new TV? New stand arrives tomorrow and is the same height as the temp stand.

The bottom of the center channel will be even with the top of the screen. The center channel will not fit in the stand.

Will blocking out that much light with the center channel effect the lighting in a negative way?

Sorry for the messy pics of my temp setup.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1561/img0410smallsd3.jpg

Here is a pic of my old setup with 65" DLP, just so you can see how the center channel will be raised up:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5686/img1336xj2.jpg

I think this thread may have more "off topic" posts that any AVS thread that I've read.

The title tells the whole story, or at least it should.

"Video Bias Lighting (SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only)"

Anyone who is only interested in putting a light behind their display would be better served to look for, or start a thread on that topic. It's a worthwhile topic. :)

On the other hand it has nothing to do with this thread which is intended to discuss one specific type of bias lighting standard -- SMPTE Recommended Practice- CIE D65/6500K White Light Only. :D

Remember to enjoy your display.

can anyone suggest a remote controlled light that I could control from the couch and turn on at night?
Many people use one of the switched outlets commonly found on the back of their AV Receiver. When the sound is switched on, the light powers up. The down side to this is that the light comes on even if the room isn't dark enough to warrant using the bias light. Therefore, lamp life is wasted.

There are an assortment of various solutions for automating the switching of a bias light featured in the accessories section of my web site. Most include discrete remote control-ability via infrared or radio frequency (RF).

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Feeth,

Your center channel speaker won't be a problem. My system at home uses a huge Klipsch center speaker on top of my TV cabinet and I still benefit from the bias lighting above and around it. In fact, my side speakers are huge old Altec 19s, which block all the wall at the same height as my cabinet. The end result is only the wall above all this gets illuminated. It's still effective. The illumination doesn't have to completely surround the TV for most of the benefits to be realized. My display is an HD direct view CRT, so I don't really need the perceived black level and contrast enhancement the technique can provide. Surrounding the screen with back lighting would increase this benefit for folks who can provide such conditions.

The so-called "$20 solution" is not a product. It's an attempt at emulating a pre-assembled, complete product. Also, where's the "Screen Snapshots of Scientific Measurements" of the lamp which claims to be "6280K and 94.5 CRI?"

The so-called "$20 solution" is not a product. It's an attempt at emulating a pre-assembled, complete product. Also, where's the "Screen Snapshots of Scientific Measurements" of the lamp which claims to be "6280K and 94.5 CRI?"

feel free to send me your product with the bulb unattached to the fixture unit for $40 less than the current price and free shipping

Verilux's contact info is available at the following link
http://www.verilux.com/

feel free to request "Screen Snapshots of Scientific Measurements" from them if you doubt the validity of their product packaging

I'm off to take some peanut butter, jelly, and bread and make myself a peanut butter and jelly solution
the peanut butter does say extra crunchy on it but I'll have to verify that myself .... later

feel free to send me your product with the bulb unattached to the fixture unit for $40 less than the current price and free shipping

Verilux's contact info is available at the following link
http://www.verilux.com/

feel free to request "Screen Snapshots of Scientific Measurements" from them if you doubt the validity of their product packaging

I'm off to take some peanut butter, jelly, and bread and make myself a peanut butter and jelly solution .... later

How exactly are you dialing in the correct light output?

BTW...I'm guessing that's synthetic peanut butter and jelly which almost tastes like the real stuff...

This dialog has become childish. Have it your way and be happy.

Feeth,

Your center channel speaker won't be a problem. My system at home uses a huge Klipsch center speaker on top of my TV cabinet and I still benefit from the bias lighting above and around it. In fact, my side speakers are huge old Altec 19s, which block all the wall at the same height as my cabinet. The end result is only the wall above all this gets illuminated. It's still effective. The illumination doesn't have to completely surround the TV for most of the benefits to be realized. My display is an HD direct view CRT, so I don't really need the perceived black level and contrast enhancement the technique can provide. Surrounding the screen with back lighting would increase this benefit for folks who can provide such conditions.

George, Thanks very much for your help and support of your product.

I should have the new stand together and hopefully everything setup by tomorrow evening or early Friday. I am sure I will have more questions for you then. :D

When they all come in I will be happy to shoot all of them and post screenshots, no matter where they come out.

Has someone done a shoot-out and published the results? I would assume that CQ has and used those results to select their vendors but I wouldn't expect them to publish their selection rationale.

It seems it would be interesting to people looking for D65 lamps in variant sizes to feel confident in excluding/including low CRI 6500s or including/excluding some the high CRI 6500 specialty lamps (aquarium, reptile, foliage etc).

I have analyzed many more selections than have been discussed thus far. We carry several sizes and types of lamps in our online store as replacement lamps for our past fixtures and DIYs. We no longer offer a T8 fixture due to deteriorating quality control and poor customer service from past suppliers. The T8 lamps are all rated at 6500K and 98 CRI, but we made a decision for our consumer models to switch to T5 fixtures.

What we have now has so many form factor benefits for the current market that we decided a 90 CRI was sufficient. Most of our customers don't have truly neutral walls. The T5 fixtures are lighter, slim enough to fit behind wall mounted TVs, less costly, linkable, more electrically efficient, and easier to ship without breakage.

I would also offer a T8 fixture but have yet to find one that I consider of sufficient quality and low enough cost. Our Pro model is substantially larger and more expensive, but of unparalleled quality, durability and accuracy. It was selected by NIST for their reference video viewing environment.

Hey guys,

Has anyone tried using bias lighting with a pz800 and its THX setting? I am considering bias lighting for my pz800, but I read somewhere that it is not good to use bias lighting behind darker displays, such as experienced with "projection tv." While I know my plasma pz800 is no projection tv, the THX setting of my tv is pretty dark. Has anyone had any experience with using bias lighting with the pz800? Did it improve the THX viewing? Thanks in advance for the help.

I read somewhere that it is not good to use bias lighting behind darker displays, such as experienced with "projection tv." While I know my plasma pz800 is no projection tv, the THX setting of my tv is pretty dark.

The use of bias lighting is not related to picture mode. The amount of bias lighting is related to maximum output.

Of course reductio will get us to a place where bias lighting is of no value but since that's an always black screen we're mostly not interested.

It may not be obvious from the context that you will want to read this article (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm) on optimizing your viewing environtment as well as perusing this thread.

Hey guys,

Has anyone tried using bias lighting with a pz800 and its THX setting? I am considering bias lighting for my pz800, but I read somewhere that it is not good to use bias lighting behind darker displays, such as experienced with "projection tv." While I know my plasma pz800 is no projection tv, the THX setting of my tv is pretty dark. Has anyone had any experience with using bias lighting with the pz800? Did it improve the THX viewing? Thanks in advance for the help.
Bias lighting would likely not be needed if the peak luminance of the display was limited to around 20 fL or less, occupies at least 26 degrees of horizontal viewing angle in a very dark room, and black levels/contrast ratio are considered satisfactory. THX recommends calibrating free standing TVs to a minimum of 30 fL at 100% white, for viewing in a darkened environment. SMPTE recommends an ideal screen luminance of 35 fL, but no lower than 30 fL, in professional monitor environments. They also recommend bias lighting in such an application. ITU recommends similar circumstances for critical evaluation of HDTV displays.

Thanks for the info guys. I know it has nothing to do with picture settings, but I believe in this case it does with my tv. The THX setting of the pz800 is the best setting on the tv, so it is the one that I use the most. Unfortunately, it also produces the least amount of light output. I am not sure how much light it puts out; however, but I have had it ISF calibrated by Gregg Loewen from Lion AV to achieve the most light output that it can produce.

You should be able to find the peak luminance figure on the calibration report he gave you. Since Gregg is the instructor for the THX Video Calibrator certification course, it's entirely logical to expect that he would leave the TV adjusted for at least 30 fL.

The THX setting of the pz800 is the best setting on the tv, so it is the one that I use the most. Unfortunately, it also produces the least amount of light output.

How long have you had the PZ?

The light output was not on the report he gave me.

And...

I have had the tv since October.

Gregg should have the data saved in your file. You could try requesting it from him via e-mail.

Gregg should have the data saved in your file. You could try requesting it from him via e-mail.

FWIW, the maximum light output I measured on my 58" PZ800U in THX mode post-calibration is 35 ftL.

I just ordered the ideal-lume light. I do not always watch TV in the dark but have a natural light on right behind me. When I have this light on do I need to have the ieal-lume light on behind the TV or should it only be on when I watch TV in the dark?

I just ordered the ideal-lume light. I do not always watch TV in the dark but have a natural light on right behind me. When I have this light on do I need to have the ieal-lume light on behind the TV or should it only be on when I watch TV in the dark?This is probably not the SMPTE recommendation, but I would say try it both ways and see what you like best. For normal TV viewing, I like having a dim light on behind me just so it is easier to find stuff (drinks, popcorn, remote, phone, etc.). I think my picture looks better with the ideal lume on even in these conditions. If I am doing more critial viewing, such as watching a movie that I want to get the full visual experince on, I will turn off the light behind me so that the room is dark.

Just my 2 cents.

Murray

I'm still trying to decide how I want to go about doing this. I'm familiar with the Ideal-Lume and I know it has a great reputation. How do the D6500K bias lighting setups from Cyron compare with the Ideal-Lume? They also seem to have a good reputation, but I see more about their colored lights than their white ones. Are there any other brands out there to look at? Thanks.

Are there any other brands out there to look at? Thanks.

Try a search in Google. That should answer all of your questions.

Try a search in Google. That should answer all of your questions.

I already did, and I got over 7,000 results, but after I tried sorting through several pages of political T-shirts, a few actual bias lights, golf clubs, ski goggles, nightgowns, and other useless crap I decided to just come here and ask.

Follow-up question: How much real-world difference will I see between 6400K and 6500K?

I already did, and I got over 7,000 results, but after I tried sorting through several pages of political T-shirts, a few actual bias lights, golf clubs, ski goggles, nightgowns, and other useless crap I decided to just come here and ask.

WOW man. Sorry I mentioned it. My way of thinking is, if I researched what HDTV to buy and I spent the money for it this lighting system is just a small expense but at least it is a tried and proven product. Plain and simple, I intend to buy my lights from George and I am glad we have him to turn to.

Follow-up question: How much real-world difference will I see between 6400K and 6500K?

In the real world probably not much, but it depends. You could have a 6400K and 6500K source that look very similar, and two others that look completely different. Color temperature is ambiguous, but unfortunately, lamps are not rated according to more precise specifications. That is why GAB recommends a high CRI.

WOW man. Sorry I mentioned it. My way of thinking is, if I researched what HDTV to buy and I spent the money for it this lighting system is just a small expense but at least it is a tried and proven product. Plain and simple, I intend to buy my lights from George and I am glad we have him to turn to.

It's no problem man. I appreciate the response. I've modified my search some and come up with some better results anyway, so it was good advice afterall. ;) And I don't think for a minute that George doesn't make a high quality product, but right now I don't have the $100 laying around to burn so I thought I'd see if I could find a less expensive alternative. Turns out I can get 6400K and 6500K LED rope light for a lot less $$$, but I'm trying to determine if it would provide as good of an effect.

The problem I'm trying to address is a halo effect on scenes that have dark and bright areas at the same time. I recently had corrective eye surgery done and unfortunately I'm experiencing the halo side effect to some degree. Hopefully it'll eventually go away on its own, but it may not. Sometimes I see them around headlights and street lights while I'm driving. I've found that if I turn on my dome light, it's just enough ambient light to make my pupils constrict and make them go away. I'm hoping for a similar effect with my HT with some kind of bias lighting.

That is why GAB recommends a high CRI.

I feel really stupid having to say this, but I don't know what GAB or CRI stand for.

right now I don't have the $100 laying around to burn

So you have a wall mounted display that won't move out enough for a single lamp?

If you search this thread for cyron you can read what people think about them.

CRI=color rendering index
GAB=GeogeAB

I feel really stupid having to say this, but I don't know what GAB or CRI stand for.

Sorry,

GAB = George Allan Brown ( GeorgeAB, Ideal-Lume vendor)

CRI = Color Rendering Index, which is the number that will add info to the color temp spec, telling you that it is closer to daylight if it is higher.

So you have a wall mounted display that won't move out enough for a single lamp?

If you search this thread for cyron you can read what people think about them.

CRI=color rendering index
GAB=GeogeAB

Are you referring to putting one single light right in the middle? The mount itself would block a lot of light from getting out. I thought it was recommended for a wallmounted display to use a dual light setup, where one light is positioned vertically on each side.

And the issue right now is that an unexpected expense came up so I'm a little tighter on the budget than usual for a month or 2. That's why I was seeing if there was something a little less $$$ that I could look at now instead of having to wait until things are back to normal.

Sorry,

GAB = George Allan Brown ( GeorgeAB, Ideal-Lume vendor)

CRI = Color Rendering Index, which is the number that will add info to the color temp spec, telling you that it is closer to daylight if it is higher.

No problem. Thanks.

And the issue right now is that an unexpected expense came up so I'm a little tighter on the budget than usual for a month or 2.

Well if you can get the rope light as a throw-away to use/test until your vision is back to normal then sure. You can always get something better later.

So, I got my Ideal-Lume on Thursday, and I have been using it for a couple of days. It isn't permanently attached yet. For anyone who doesn't recall, I am using a single light in a corner setup, with the TV on one of those stands that has a mount on the back for the panel.

Let me say first-off that the two main goals of reducing eye-strain and deepening blacks (even on my Pioneer PRO-101FD) have definitely been achieved. I watched Sweeney Todd last night on Blu-Ray, and to say that the blacks were black is an understatement. I almost wondered if I was losing detail, but I think it was intended to look that way.

However, as expected, the corner situation creates a very slight problem. Basically, the brightness is always greater toward the middle of the screen, which lines up with the corner of the room. Currently, this is more distracting than it should be in the end, because I don't have my center-channel speaker under the screen (so, more light comes through on the bottom side). I am not at all dissatisfied with the result, and I presume that I can get it even better with some slight tweaking. The unit is currently sitting slightly forward of where I expect it to end up (probably only an inch or two), because that is what works for temporary mounting.

This brings me to my two questions. First, when I am doing my best to achieve 10% maximum light output (or whatever the proper terminology is), should I be measuring the brightest part in the center, which I think is decidedly greater than that, or the sides, which are probably about right already. My guess would be that I need to bring it down so that the center is dimmer. Obviously, it is a compromise, regardless.

And assuming that my goal should be to both bring down the center brightness, and increase the uniformity, what would be the recommended method to do this? Should I consider cutting some of the mask material in a slightly curved fashion, with the center of the mask being "wider", blocking more light toward the center than the edges? Or is this sort of adjustment futile? I did get some extra masking material with my unit, so I have something to work with, but I would probably only get one or two shots at this without buying more material, so I'd love to get anyone's input on this. Maybe there is some great formula I can use to determine the proper shape. ;) Wishful thinking, I know.

Well if you can get the rope light as a throw-away to use/test until your vision is back to normal then sure. You can always get something better later.

I think now I'll just wait until I can get the Ideal-Lume. The more I read, the more it looks like it's the best option out there. Thanks to everyone for your help.

ncfoster,

Someone earlier suggested some expanding black net tubing for stretching over the lamp or the baffle tube. There is no magic formula. Mainly it's because there are so many variables from one installation to the next.

If the brightest area on the wall is very large, it should be no greater than 10% of peak white. If it's minimal, the bright spot could probably be a bit over 10% and the dominant area of illumination would start at 10% and fade outward. SMPTE RP166 actually mentions that a fade away from or toward the monitor is to be preferred over a 100% evenly illuminated wall area.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Someone earlier suggested some expanding black net tubing for stretching over the lamp or the baffle tube. There is no magic formula. Mainly it's because there are so many variables from one installation to the next.

Black net tubing, eh? I searched the thread, and I wasn't able to find the post that you were referring to.

Was the idea in that case to mute the light from the bulb, or to mask it? I guess either could have the desired effect if done properly, but I am leaning toward trying to mask it. I will probably give it a go tonight, and see how that works.

Thanks for your input.

Well, maybe I should have taken pictures to be a little clearer about what I am doing, but it is pretty simple. I took the second piece of masking material and did as follows:

- On each narrow end, I began cutting about 2/3 of the way down the side, and I gradually curved up toward the middle of the piece.

- I trimmed off maybe 1/4 of the depth of the piece, since I was going to overlap anyhow, and knew that part wasn't needed. Getting the full piece in the tube with the first piece and the bulb was a tad difficult, so I was trying to make it easier (and it was)

- I put the second piece of masking material in the tube, overlapping the main piece (Luckily, I seem to have gotten this placement right the first time, as I am quite pleased with the results). The curved piece was placed so as to mask the top of the bulb, since I was primarily looking to minimize the "bloom" of light on top of the screen, without lowering the output to the sides.

- I placed the light, horizontally, in the same spot I had it before (on top of mount portion of the stand). I will have to decide later whether I want it marginally closer to the wall, but this location may be perfect.

The end result is much more subtle than using the stock setup. While there is more glow in the middle than the edges, it is quite subtle, especially from my seating positions. Other than using the velcro and deciding on a final position for the light, I think that I am reached about as good of a result as I can possibly achieve in this less-than-ideal setup (referring only to the area immediately around the screen).

I still need to place my center speaker below the screen, which will further clean up the look on the under-side of the screen (right now, there are some visible and semi-visible wires, made more visible by the lighting, under the screen).

My stand is open-backed, which is also seeming slightly less-than-ideal with the lighting, since it attracts some attention to the various wires, and several surfaces catch some degree of reflection (the shelves are glass, and the DirecTV box has a shiny black finish). As long as I am focused on the screen, everything is good, but I am one of those people who obsess over every LED on my equipment, so needless to say I can get distracted.

Anyhow, I just wanted to share my success with regard to taming a corner installation. I'm not the first, and I am sure I won't be the last, so hopefully others will benefit from this idea.

Your persistence and innovation are admirable.:)

Hey guys,

Has anyone tried using bias lighting with a pz800 and its THX setting? I am considering bias lighting for my pz800, but I read somewhere that it is not good to use bias lighting behind darker displays, such as experienced with "projection tv." While I know my plasma pz800 is no projection tv, the THX setting of my tv is pretty dark. Has anyone had any experience with using bias lighting with the pz800? Did it improve the THX viewing? Thanks in advance for the help.

I use a single Ideal-Lume for my 50PZ800u. Mine had an IFS calibration that resulted in a peak luminance of appx. 32 fl. in the THX mode. Bias lighting makes a significant difference in reducing eye strain and in perceived black level....and it gives my corner set-up a nice elegance. As it is a corner set-up, I had to use a lot of trial and error to get it right and it probably isn't perfect by Ideal-Lume standards. Everyone who has seen the panel with the Ideal-Lume on/off prefers it on. I use a single at the lowest possible output, mounted vertically in the center rear of the set.

Everything I can find over the last several days says that CRI is an antiquated measurement tool for lamps. An Incandescent Lamp (which is very unbalanced) can have a CRI of 100 but would be very poor for balanced color viewing.

As far as I can tell, the proper rating of a D65 source, according to ASTM-D1729, is via CIE Publication 51. Do the lamps used in the Ideal Lume Pro and Ideal Lume Standard meet the BC ratings or not? If not, what are they rated at?
You are entering into subject matter that will be unfamiliar, complex, and difficult for the vast majority of readers of this thread. CRI has been discussed earlier in the thread. If by "antiquated" you mean the test method has been around a while, I understand your use of the term. If you mean outdated, I'll disagree. CRI is currently used ubiquitously in the professional and consumer lighting industries, primarily for fluorescents. It helps to offer at least one simplified metric by which purchasers can compare color rendering performance of various lighting products.

The CRI of lamps below 5000K is referenced to an artificial black body radiator. Lamps at 5000K and above are referenced to natural daylight for color rendering. Industries that rely on the visual comparison of colors under artificial lighting recommend a CRI of at least 90 out of 100. More detail on this subject can be pursued elsewhere on the web for readers wanting a more complete understanding of these terms.

Regarding the ASTM-D1729 [ASTM D 1729-96 (2002): 'Standard Practice for Visual Appraisal of Colors and Color Differences of Diffusely-Illuminated Opaque Materials']and CIE Publication 51 documents [CIE 51.2-1999: 'A Method for Assessing the Quality of Daylight Simulators for Colorimetry'], these must be purchased from their respective organizations for a relatively substantial fee. Such standards bodies are non-profit organizations to preserve their independence and objectivity. Their funding comes from membership fees and the sale of technical publications that report on their standards and practices research. These publications are copyright protected and should not be found in their entirety on the web.

I have these two standards documents in my reference files. The simple answer to your first question is: the lamp in the Pro model does comply but the others do not. What are the ones that do not comply rated at? Since they can't be rated for CIE D65, under the terms of the documents you referenced, they are less precise. Less precise rating methods include their Correlated Color Temperature rating (in Kelvins) and their CRI rating. Both of these lighting industry ratings are considered averages or approximations.

The GretagMacbeth (XRite) lamp used in the Pro model has superior spectral power distribution (SPD) properties. This is by reason of the patented seven phosphor formula developed by GretagMacbeth. Our other lamps use a three phosphor formula, common to most commercial and consumer fluorescents. The ASTM document makes this statement: "The most important requirement, which is of particular importance for daylight simulators, is the spectral power distribution of the illumination."- ASTM D 1729-96(2000): 6.2.1b. CIE 51.2-1999 makes the similar case that chromaticity is less critical than SPD when a daylight simulator is qualifying as a "CIE Standard illuminant" at D65.

The two documents you referenced apply specifically to the critical evaluation of colored surfaces under artificial daylight simulators. It should be noted that in electronic imaging, D65 is referenced as having very specific chromaticity coordinates, and SPD is not factored. The closest reference in video display metrology I'm aware of, to anything like SPD, would be a combination of delta-E, colorimetry (including color luminance), and the tolerances for deviation in chromaticity coordinates of SMPTE C phosphors (SMPTE RP167, A.14), etc. It matters in which context D65 is discussed and applied when evaluating the significance of chromaticity and SPD for ambient illumination. In video viewing environments, chromaticity tolerances should make more of a difference than in analyzing colored surfaces under simulated daylight.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

and it gives my corner set-up a nice elegance. As it is a corner set-up, I had to use a lot of trial and error to get it right and it probably isn't perfect by Ideal-Lume standards. Everyone who has seen the panel with the Ideal-Lume on/off prefers it on. I use a single at the lowest possible output, mounted vertically in the center rear of the set.

Greetings fellow corner viewer. :) As detailed above, I am quite happy with my initial try at a corner setup. Interesting that we came to different results (horizontal versus vertical, etc.). I will make an effort to see if I can take any pictures when things are finalized, but I think that getting a good picture of this sort of thing might be beyond my photography skills. :)

Hi, just for clarification, do I need to calibrate my HDTV with the Bias Lighting on or off? I'm thinking on because that is how I am going to view the HDTV.

Calibrate without the light in a dark room. Then adjust the light to 10% of peak white on the screen using a bias light level test pattern. Very slight adjustment of black level might be needed after the bias light is adjusted.

George, you sure are a good sport putting up with some of these posts! I'm still enjoying my two T-5 Ideals behind my Kuro although after having moved to a new house with the infamous entertainment center TV "nook" setup, I get less benefit from them, but some. I have 5/8" clearance on the left, top and right sides and about 6" on the bottom. Of course the entertainment center back wall is medium dark paneling.

Thanks again for a very worth while product!

hey george, so after going through most of this thread in search for a similar installation to mine i was unsuccessful. Everyone has a different setup and heres mine:

color of the wall is off white, tvs distance from the wall is 4 to 6 inches, tv is on a stand,
tv is a 40 inch samsung 71 series lcd tv, i watch in the a dark room no lights on, tv is about a foot and half away from the edge of the wall (corner of the room).
Also i dont have a dvd for calibration of my tv, is this going to be a problem?
The main reason for wanting a Ideal Lume Panelight 6500K D light is because of the discomfort to my eyes when watching tv in the dark.

So thats all the information i can think of to provide u and i want to know what u think i should do , buy the dve dvd and buy the Ideal Lume Panelight 6500K D light, how to install vertical or horizontally , one or two lights, ......, I could keep gpoing but at this time i will shut up and let u answer.

ps: if anything else comes to mind that i did not mention feel free to mention it, anything

thx.

It sounds like one light will be sufficient. Try mounting it temporarily in a horizontal direction first. Look for the most even distribution of the light around the TV. You should get a home theater setup DVD for the bias light level test pattern. That's the best way to determine how to adjust the baffle tube for the right amount of illumination on the wall. You may even find one for rent. We offer them for sale as well.

It sounds like one light will be sufficient. Try mounting it temporarily in a horizontal direction first. Look for the most even distribution of the light around the TV. You should get a home theater setup DVD for the bias light level test pattern. That's the best way to determine how to adjust the baffle tube for the right amount of illumination on the wall. You may even find one for rent. We offer them for sale as well.

I thought Ideal Lume Panelight 6500K D witch comes with 2 lights was ideal for lcd and plasma tv s. Im guessing ure suggesting one light because of the size of my tv being 40 inches, one light would be sufficient, am i right? What calibration dvd do u recommend?
Reading through the cinemaquest site i came across something saying that the off white colored wall that is frequently found in most homes is not ideal, its to light. Im not sure if its what was intended to say or i just misread it, but can u tell me if off white is better or worse than say a darker colored wall like gray.

Panelight is for wall mounted flat TVs, as explained numerous times in the thread and in the product descriptions on my web site. Yours is stand mounted and has sufficient space behind for the illumination of one light to spread out on the wall.

Your wall is very nearly neutral. White would be better, or some lighter shade of neutral gray. Note this from post #1164:

I have been studying a book recently that was recommended to me by one of the Ph.D.s from THX, Ltd., when I was consulting at Skywalker Ranch in December. The title of this imaging science industry reference is, 'Color Appearance Models,' by Mark D. Fairchild, Ph.D., of the Chester F. Carlson Center for Imaging Science: Munsell Color Science Laboratory. Yesterday, I came across a section describing the perceptual phenomenon users of bias lighting experience that produces perceived improvement of contrast on their monitor screen.

"Their experimental results, obtained through matching and scaling experiments, showed that the perceived contrast of images increased when the image surround was changed from dark to dim to light. This effect occurs because the dark surround of an image causes dark areas to appear lighter while having little effect on light areas (white areas still appear white despite changes in surround). Thus since there is more of a perceived change in the dark areas of an image than in the light areas, there is a resultant change in perceived contrast.....Often, when working at a computer workstation, users turn off the room lights in order to make the CRT display appear of higher contrast. This produces a darker surround that should perceptually lower the contrast of the display. The predictions of Bartleson and Breneman are counter to everyday experience in this situation. The reason for this is that the room lights are usually introducing a significant amount of reflection off the face of the monitor and thus reducing the physical contrast of the displayed images. If the surround of the display can be illuminated without introducing reflection off the face of the display (e.g., by placing a light source behind the monitor that illuminates the surrounding area), the perceived contrast of the display will actually be higher than when it is viewed in a completely darkened room."

Yesterday my fiancee ordered an Ideal Lume Panelight for my birthday present.

I am very excited.

Panelight is for wall mounted flat TVs, as explained numerous times in the thread and in the product descriptions on my web site. Yours is stand mounted and has sufficient space behind for the illumination of one light to spread out on the wall.

Your wall is very nearly neutral. White would be better, or some lighter shade of neutral gray. Note this from post #1164:

I have been studying a book recently that was recommended to me by one of the Ph.D.s from THX, Ltd., when I was consulting at Skywalker Ranch in December. The title of this imaging science industry reference is, 'Color Appearance Models,' by Mark D. Fairchild, Ph.D., of the Chester F. Carlson Center for Imaging Science: Munsell Color Science Laboratory. Yesterday, I came across a section describing the perceptual phenomenon users of bias lighting experience that produces perceived improvement of contrast on their monitor screen.

"Their experimental results, obtained through matching and scaling experiments, showed that the perceived contrast of images increased when the image surround was changed from dark to dim to light. This effect occurs because the dark surround of an image causes dark areas to appear lighter while having little effect on light areas (white areas still appear white despite changes in surround). Thus since there is more of a perceived change in the dark areas of an image than in the light areas, there is a resultant change in perceived contrast.....Often, when working at a computer workstation, users turn off the room lights in order to make the CRT display appear of higher contrast. This produces a darker surround that should perceptually lower the contrast of the display. The predictions of Bartleson and Breneman are counter to everyday experience in this situation. The reason for this is that the room lights are usually introducing a significant amount of reflection off the face of the monitor and thus reducing the physical contrast of the displayed images. If the surround of the display can be illuminated without introducing reflection off the face of the display (e.g., by placing a light source behind the monitor that illuminates the surrounding area), the perceived contrast of the display will actually be higher than when it is viewed in a completely darkened room."

just one more thing i need to know before i can order. I see that there is many different types of calibration dvds. I think maybe dve hd basics would be the right choice for me since i have a blue ray and a 1080p lcd tv. But im wondering if its as informative as some of the others like the dve combo pack or avia2...
Judging from my setup witch dvd do u think will benefit me the most.

I recommend that you get 'DVE: HD Basics' on Blu-ray Disc.

ok great im gonna place my order for the ideal lume standard and hd basics dvd asap and lets u know how things go. Thanks for the help george.

is 6500K Full spectrum or natural light or day light?

The term "6500K" refers to the correlated color temperature of the illumination.
"Full spectrum" loosely refers to a higher color rendering lamp that mimics natural daylight.
"Natural light" also refers to daylight.
"Daylight" is used in the lighting industry to indicate a lamp which mimics sunlight.
The lamps used in Ideal-Lume products are either "CIE D65" (a specific spectral performance that's rather complex), or rated at 6500K with a high color rendering index (CRI), and are all considered full spectrum daylight.

Hey guys,

I have a 58 inch pz800, and I just ordered one Ideal lumen light from lionAV. For those with experience with this size tv and limited space around the tv (about 1 inch on sides / center speaker below the tv / 1 foot above the tv), should I put my light vertical or horizontal? Also, does bias lighting help with 1:85 material that completely fills the screen, or is it mainly for letterbox?

Hey guys,

I have a 58 inch pz800, and I just ordered one Ideal lumen light from lionAV. For those with experience with this size tv and limited space around the tv (about 1 inch on sides / center speaker below the tv / 1 foot above the tv), should I put my light vertical or horizontal? Also, does bias lighting help with 1:85 material that completely fills the screen, or is it mainly for letterbox?

I sounds like you have your TV enclosed in a cabinet. In that case it would probably work fine either way in how you orient the light. Horizontally tends to be easier to install. The aspect ratio of the program has no bearing upon the suitability or benefits of bias lightng.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

how many ideal lumes are required for a 58 inch tv wall mounted? if i saw correctly on the website 3 were put on the back of a tv? sorry if im asking a dumb question

I have two total on my 60" and it looks great. Thanks GeorgeAB

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/images/xyz/vizio_bias_close.JPG

I was wondering if someone can tell me if they're not using a diffuser with their setup. Scared of it falling or anything? I did a search and GAB stated that a diffuser is only necessary for protection of the bulb and that a phosphur bulb has it own diffusion. Is trichromatic the right phosphur bulb? Also I believe that a diffuser also dims the light ouput as well right? So should I just go with the one without it? Trying to make my own bias lighting so I need an answer. I have one strip with a diffuser and one without. The one without is black and i kinda like it black even though I know I won't see it unless I look behind the tv. Somehow, I still bugs me if it was white with a diffuser. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

If a clear tube can change the color 200 K, what do you think a diffuser would do? Also, without some type of diffuser, how do plan to get the light down to 10% of peak f L of the HDTV?

I don't know and I don't know. Thats why i'm here on the forums to learn. I am open to suggestions. If I knew the answers I would be watching tv instead of posting questions on here. Again, any help is appreciated.

Thanks

I was wondering if someone can tell me if they're not using a diffuser with their setup. ... I believe that a diffuser also dims the light

I don't use a diffuser but the Ideal-Lume (I-L standard) is T5 size so the weight is negligible. The entire unit weighs about the same as a T8 lamp. My unit is mounted horizontally with wire ties so I have no concerns about it falling or having something fall on it. By the way, without a more specific reference I'm don't think you should apply advice that might be I-L specific to another lamp. I'm pretty sure GeorgeAB's comments about using the diffuser to protect the lamp are regarding the I-L.

If you're looking for information or advice about a DIY D65 bias lamp you'll need to provide a bit more information about your goals and plans. It's difficult to offer commentary about things (e.g. dimming) without some context.

If a clear tube can change the color 200 K, what do you think a diffuser would do? Also, without some type of diffuser, how do plan to get the light down to 10% of peak f L of the HDTV?First thought would be a mechanical aperture to reduce the amount of light. Second would be a combination aperture and ND filter.

Another point here, there are many filters available to correct the color temp of any of the bulbs. Try this link (http://www.leefiltersusa.com/go.php)

We stopped using polyester theatrical ND filters in our products due to the effect they have upon the spectral power distribution of the lamp. They are not neutral.

We have attempted to use color correcting filters from 'the usual suspects.' In almost all cases, the faintest colored filters would cause us to overshoot our target color temperature. Another problem would be how they would screw up the spectral power distribution. We would use a "minus blue" filter to correct away from blue, the blue would be improved but red or yellow would be over accentuated.

Users of the filters in calibration DVDs have reported inconsistencies in how dark the filters are from one sample to the next. Dye lots can vary from one batch to the next. Filters could work in theory, but in practice we have encountered unexpected side effects, such as the problems I just mentioned. A hobbyist with lots of time on his hands, and a spectroradiometer, may get good results with filters sooner or later. The process has not been as simple as we originally expected.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

I would agree, the "full spectrum" needs to come from the light source, however I was talking about using very light filters to correct the white point closer to D65.

I know how much a D65 light source changes the appearance of a room, but in the case of bias lighting only, with a non neutral color wall, I am not sure of the effect on color perception while viewing TV.

I'm not sure either. How can you be, without knowing the specifics? What I do know is, the closer you get to correct, the better off you are. That, and the farther you go from correct, the worse off you are. As with most of life, we're talking about degrees of deviation that may be subtle or not.

One thing is for sure, incandescent lighting is WAY off, and will only correct a cyan to blue wall. As you dim them, they get more and more red.

One thing is for sure, incandescent lighting is WAY off, and will only correct a cyan to blue wall. As you dim them, they get more and more red.This is the interesting point. Color correction for the "wall" (bias lighting only), would seem to be a good direction to go.... some sort of blue light for yellow walls. magenta for green and cyan for reds..... If we can neutralize the color behind the TV the image becomes more natural. Now for room lighting, any light reaching the screen needs to be D65.......

Now for room lighting, any light reaching the screen needs to be D65.......
You should review the science of imaging relating to human factors. We don't want ANY light of any kind reaching the screen, ideally. The light coming off the wall behind should be D65, or as close as possible. The simplest way to achieve this is with a D65 lamp and a neutral wall. Trying to use color correcting illumination for God-only-knows what color of wall is potentially far too complex. Another factor is the benefit of having a neutral wall behind the display for all ambient lighting conditions in the room.

You should review the science of imaging relating to human factors. We don't want ANY light of any kind reaching the screen, ideally. The light coming off the wall behind should be D65, or as close as possible. The simplest way to achieve this is with a D65 lamp and a neutral wall. Trying to use color correcting illumination for God-only-knows what color of wall is potentially far too complex. Another factor is the benefit of having a neutral wall behind the display for all ambient lighting conditions in the room.I have yet to see a perfect viewing environment, with the exception of one FP theater that was all black inside......

I have yet to see a perfect viewing environment, with the exception of one FP theater that was all black inside......
Due largely to ignorance. All black is not necessary, either. Perfection is also not necessary- show me the perfect display.

It appears that the Zoo Med Aquatic UltraSun is close to 7200 K and the Color isn't as correct as they would lead you to believe. I will give them credit that the Spectral Response on their box is pretty close to what it actually looks like.


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9691/zoomedaquaticultrasunzn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


As noted with the Cyron LEDs, in terms of Color Quality, CIE Standard 15.2 and Publication 51 specify the aim points and allowable tolerance for simulated daylight sources. The CIE tolerance is a radius of 0.015 from the specified aimpoint (CIE 1976 chromaticity coordinates of u'=0.1979 and v'=0.4685. The Zoo Med did fall within this radius - just a bit better than the Cyron LED - at u' 0.1986 and v' 0.4580 with a big blue push.

However, again, at over 7100 K, most will not care what the Color Quality is as this will be a non-starter.

That puts me back to square one. Gotta find a bulb again. Are any of these good? Zoo Med repti sun 2.0, Coralife Trichromatic, or Sylvania Activa 172? Anyone using these? How do you test the bulb? I'm interested to learn.

Thanks

Gotta find a bulb again.


Not buying an I-L is penny-wise and pound-foolish. However if you only want a tested bulb you should just buy one from CinemaQuest as you previously considered. You'll need a T5 fixture that will take a 21" lamp. Be aware that even a low wattage lamp will produce much more light than you need so you'll need to fabricate a mechanical dimmer of some sort.

Not buying an I-L is penny-wise and pound-foolish. However if you only want a tested bulb you should just buy one from CinemaQuest as you previously considered. You'll need a T5 fixture that will take a 21" lamp. Be aware that even a low wattage lamp will produce much more light than you need so you'll need to fabricate a mechanical dimmer of some sort.

I'm starting to see your point. I understand ideal lume is a good way to go, but trying to DIY is what i'm trying to accomplish. The research i'm doing is not only for myself, but for other people I know that are interested. They may not want to buy the ideal lume unit or can justify purchasing one at the price. I do appreciate your input. ALso I believe you went with a different setup before, when did you realize it wasn't working to your liking?

Thanks

ALso I believe you went with a different setup before, when did you realize it wasn't working to your liking?


When I replaced my rplcd with a plasma I wanted something I could mount on the back of the panel. After I determined that DIY was going to cost more than an I-L I moved on. My time is better spent on interesting things and assembling $60 in parts rather than buying a $70 lamp is not interesting.

When I replaced my rplcd with a plasma I wanted something I could mount on the back of the panel. After I determined that DIY was going to cost more than an I-L I moved on. My time is better spent on interesting things and assembling $60 in parts rather than buying a $70 lamp is not interesting.

Once again I appreciate your input. Assembling $60 in parts may be a waste of your time, but others may feel a certain accompolishment from it. I do it for the knowledge and understanding of what makes each bulb different. I can just buy and ideal lume and be done with it, but i have a prepencity to research and understand things before I buy them. Also, this thread is about the practice of using a D65 white light bulb and not the ideal lume owners thread I believe. So, trying to see other alternatives is within these guidelines. I will eventually get one like i stated, but i'm looking for an alternative for the bedroom. Overall this has been informative, and I hope to learn more from here on out.

Thanks

I seem to not be able to find any information about someone with a brown wall. I've searched for "brown" in this thread but it doesn't help that GeorgeAB's last name is Brown! Is there anything special to know for brown walls? I'm very close to buying an Ideal-Lume but I'm just researching before.

Thanks,

Mike

In the Color Appearance Modeling arena brown is considered orange that is desaterated. It is what it is, and any attempt to color correct for it by tinting the illumination reflecting off of it is the same old story. The process for correcting it would be complex and rather outside the scope of this thread. Using a 6500K bias light will still be an improvement over incandescent back lighting, since typical household lighting is already orange, and that would only the accentuate the coloration of the brown wall.

Thank you for the reply.

Mike

This might be one of the most revealing graphs when comparing the Bias Lighting Options

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9701/spectralplot1rm0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This might be one of the most revealing graphs when comparing the Bias Lighting OptionsI think the one you are missing is turning on all the lights and get a combined reading it should have a fuller spectrum........:) also the daylight spectrum from a cloud or direct sunlight on a reference white or gray surface.

OK, we have all this great spectral data, however can we even see the difference? Most of the displays have bulbs that are far from full spectrum.

Now for the "Brown Wall" could it make sense to choose a bulb with a lower energy red spike? Something like the GE 6500 (if I read the chard correctly)....... Finding the correct, custom bias light, to compensate for the wall color, could be a science/calibration of its own. Those of us with spectral devices and point and shoot meters, can easily measure the wall color and luminance. Mt guess is at a 10% bias level, the color shift effect of viewing the surrounding color may not be material, there may not be enough light energy to influence the visual difference. Now that is not to say that a lime green or lemon yellow wall wouldn't be a problem. I agree with George that any light spreading/spilling into the room is best done at D65.

This might be one of the most revealing graphs when comparing the Bias Lighting Options

I bet the desire was to have the daylight plot on the combined graph.

I don't think I have the ability to look at the plots and say which is best. The verilux seems nice though.

Are you going to be testing an I-L pro tube? We could take up a collection. :)

How do you test the bulb?

With a device called a spectroradiometer e.g. KM CS-2000 or you could use a tristimulus colorimeter e.g. KM CS-200 (just to pick two at random).

This is not for the faint of heart; as gadgets go these are rather expensive.

Color correcting walls with light should be its own thread, simply due to the complex and infinitely varied applications possible. This thread is supposed to be focused upon the title. SMPTE recommended practice is with a neutral wall and ambient lighting as close as possible the video white point.

Compromised viewing environments have been around forever. The purpose of SMPTE RP166 was to avoid compromised viewing conditions, after all.

This reminds me of Joe Kane's Widescreen Review article on the history of projection screens for home theater. Rather than provide a neutral surface for reflecting an image, manufacturers were formulating screens to compensate for weaknesses in specific projectors.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Listen guys i appreciate all the the long hours and hard work u put into researching different bias light bulbs, but im new at this light behind a tv set and im not going to pretend that i understand any of this "how to measure and read research data from graphs stuff". That being said i and im sure I speak for alot of new and old members that we are also trying to buy the best bias light that exists out there so far But were not as knowledgeable and well equipped to make that decision as u guys are.
Anyway i was under the impression that ideal lume was by far the better choice but now after all this talk about other brands im not sure any more.
Please just explain it in plain English.
For example id like to match my off white colored wall to the right bulb, is this color neutral or do i have to repaint. Also i dont seems to understand what would happen if my wall isnt neutral, will this have a huge effect on the colors my tv will display, and what about the blacks and whites will they get all messed up? What the point of all this research? isnt it as simple as to buying a good quality lamp and placing at the back of the tv?
Again i appreciate all the hard work but i wish i could understand all this without having to purchase all this expensive equipment that i will use probably just this once, all so i could understand what, witch light bulb will match with my off white wall, its not worth the $$$. Lastly, will this research, when finally all is said and done, work with any kind of display ( plasma ,lcd, fp,bp,crt...) and what about the size (40", 50", 60"...).
And just so this post doesnt get bad mojo and spin out of control, I did as usual read through most of this thread and have learned a lot but not nearly enough as it stands.

So if someone can put all this into words that we could all understand, then and only then we could all enjoy and enrich the displays we have payed so much for in a wonderful environment with out eye strain and also the beautiful images these great tv s were meant to display (after calibration of course).

Thx again.

amp pop

Again i appreciate all the hard work but i wish i could understand all this without having to purchase all this expensive equipment that i will use probably just this once, all so i could understand what, witch light bulb will match with my off white wall, its not worth the $$$. Lastly, will this research, when finally all is said and done, work with any kind of display ( plasma ,lcd, fp,bp,crt...) and what about the size (40", 50", 60"...).

So if someone can put all this into words that we could all understand, then and only then we could all enjoy and enrich the displays we have payed so much for in a wonderful environment with out eye strain and also the beautiful images these great tv s were meant to display (after calibration of course).

Without trying to be biased as to which brand of lamp you select it becomes very apparent when you compare the spectral distribution curve findings which beachcomber provided for us in his post earlier today as to which products perform best.. The GTI website has a spectral plot which displays the CIE spectral plot which an ideal bias lamp should provide. Based on this reference curve it is easy to pick out the lamps in the test graph which come closest to the reference plot. Most commercial variety lamps have poor Red spectral energy response. Two of the lamps tested have superior Red response relative to the reference plot then the rest of the lamps. There is also an improvement noted in the Blue spectral region.

You can possibly achieve the 10% light output of the bias lamp by using a Lee ND filter with an ND 3 or ND 4 value. This should not significantly change the x,y chromaticity of the fluorescent lamp being used according to the specifications on the Lee filters website.

The bias lighting concept is impartial to the type of display that you intend to use with it. If you desire the best results then use a neutral painted surface behind the display for the bias lamp to illuminate.

Try this: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm , and this: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ive.htm . They are the most concise but thorough general explanation I have encountered, of proper bias lighting implementation and why it's beneficial.

amp pop



Without trying to be biased as to which brand of lamp you select it becomes very apparent when you compare the spectral distribution curve findings which beachcomber provided for us in his post earlier today as to which products perform best.. The GTI website has a spectral plot which displays the CIE spectral plot which an ideal bias lamp should provide. Based on this reference curve it is easy to pick out the lamps in the test graph which come closest to the reference plot. Most commercial variety lamps have poor Red spectral energy response. Two of the lamps tested have superior Red response relative to the reference plot then the rest of the lamps. There is also an improvement noted in the Blue spectral region.

You can possibly achieve the 10% light output of the bias lamp by using a Lee ND filter with an ND 3 or ND 4 value. This should not significantly change the x,y chromaticity of the fluorescent lamp being used according to the specifications on the Lee filters website.

The bias lighting concept is impartial to the type of display that you intend to use with it. If you desire the best results then use a neutral painted surface behind the display for the bias lamp to illuminate.

thats excacly my point i dont get the data that beachcomber came up with. Its like reading a language i have yet do learn. I dont know what the spetral curve means. What if they ave poor red spectral energy or poor blue for that matter, what will affect and in what way. Apperently from thai explanation of yours, you obviously do get it. So maybe just tell me, so far witch lamp is better. The ideal lume lamp should be the clear winner, because of all the research and time and work and money that went in to it.

amp pop

The best way to understand what the spectral response plots of each of the lamps tested represents is to look at how the curve compares to the "CIE reference curve" in the link provided below. This is what the "ideal response" should look like as the bias light is attempting to reproduce light as measured from "Average North Sky Daylight".

If you look carefully at beachcombers graph you will see that the Red response of the Yellow trace is significantly lower then that of the reference whereas the balance of the lamps are much higher in this region. The Blue area is the range beginning at 380 nanometers wavelength light. The Verilux and GTI lamps both provide significantly greater Blue as well as Red spectral energy from 600 nm and up then any of the other lamps tested.

I think that the lamp manufacturers have a far greater investment then anyone in this arena. Distilling down the measurement data which beachcomber provided lends a great deal of insight as to the similarities and differences amongst the popular bias lamps used by forum members.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15767419&postcount=1735

Anyway i was under the impression that ideal lume was by far the better choice but now after all this talk about other brands im not sure any more.

Also i dont seems to understand what would happen if my wall isnt neutral, will this have a huge effect on the colors my tv will display, and what about the blacks and whites will they get all messed up? What the point of all this research? isnt it as simple as to buying a good quality lamp and placing at the back of the tv?


I've posted a few things in this thread that try to explain what I find useful. I don't intend to disuade anyone from looking at alternatives, building your own or doing research. Nor do I want to seem to be a terribly biased proponent of the I-L. Oh well. Assuming I understand your initial question -- the bulb discussion isn't about "brands". The Cyron unit is a complete lamp (I'm not sure it has a dimmer) and I-L bulb is from a complete bias lamp but the other items (GE, VeriLux, GTI, ZooMed) are just bulbs. You have to get a fixture and arrange for dimming. Regarding your other questions:
1) Don't worry too much about your wall. If you can paint or drape it that's great. You fix what you can and live with the rest.
2) People do research because they're curious or want something special or because it's their job.
3) It can be as simple as buying a lamp and putting it on the back of your display. It's up to you.

so this is where i stand, due to some complications with cinemaquest on the idealume standard i wont be getting it. I dont know i should take this as a loss or maybe theres a video bias light out there that is just as good or better. I thinking of assembling one myself(cost not being the reason for this decision).
What do u guys think of the round bulbs, are they worse than the narrow and long(like the i.l.). I would also get a clamp fixture and clamp it in my tv stand. Of course it have to be 6500 k or so advertised and i dont have the equipment to test it out. Also i probably wont be able to regulate the light output since i wont have filters.

Theres a lot of unknowns but i have no choice, the ideal lume was the total package, ive seen the final product on this tread on home made bias lighting and people are pretty satisfied.

I will be going to a hardware store today or should i go instead to lighting specialty store? My guess is to get as close as possible to 6500 k and a cr % close to 100.

But any advice on a home made bias lighting fixture would be appreciated. thanx

My IL Panellight arrived last Thursday (Shipping was very fast for standard ground.) I arrived home from work at 445, IL was installed by 530 (Would have been 505 or so, but I had to make nice with the fiancee for a while.)

Spent the night watching Iron Man, watched Mad Men and 3:10 to Yuma over the weekend. The lighting is delicious. I love it immensely. Worth every penny.

Gosh! Must've been some rendesvous!;)

[QUOTE=amp pop;15795713]so this is where i stand, due to some complications with cinemaquest on the idealume standard i wont be getting it. I dont know i should take this as a loss or maybe theres a video bias light out there that is just as good or better. I thinking of assembling one myself(cost not being the reason for this decision).
What do u guys think of the round bulbs, are they worse than the narrow and long(like the i.l.). I would also get a clamp fixture and clamp it in my tv stand. Of course it have to be 6500 k or so advertised and i dont have the equipment to test it out. Also i probably wont be able to regulate the light output since i wont have filters.


I got a black goose neck clamp light at Staples for $9.99 and a 6500k 40 watt equiv daylight bulb at Ace Hardware. My setup is a corner arrangement, so it took some hit and miss to get the proper balance around the screen on my 52 inch LCD.

I taped a piece of duct tape, (another use for duct tape) across the top 1/4 of the lamp to tone down the brightness a bit and to even the top of screen lighting. Right now, the lighting on my off white walls is even and in line with the standard on the DVE disc.

I plan to use this setup for a few weeks before deciding whether to go the Ideal Lume route. Give it a try.

Um, anyone know what happened to the lamp data?

[QUOTE=amp pop;15795713]so this is where i stand, due to some complications with cinemaquest on the idealume standard i wont be getting it. I dont know i should take this as a loss or maybe theres a video bias light out there that is just as good or better. I thinking of assembling one myself(cost not being the reason for this decision).
What do u guys think of the round bulbs, are they worse than the narrow and long(like the i.l.). I would also get a clamp fixture and clamp it in my tv stand. Of course it have to be 6500 k or so advertised and i dont have the equipment to test it out. Also i probably wont be able to regulate the light output since i wont have filters.


I got a black goose neck clamp light at Staples for $9.99 and a 6500k 40 watt equiv daylight bulb at Ace Hardware. My setup is a corner arrangement, so it took some hit and miss to get the proper balance around the screen on my 52 inch LCD.

I taped a piece of duct tape, (another use for duct tape) across the top 1/4 of the lamp to tone down the brightness a bit and to even the top of screen lighting. Right now, the lighting on my off white walls is even and in line with the standard on the DVE disc.

I plan to use this setup for a few weeks before deciding whether to go the Ideal Lume route. Give it a try.

Does it make a big noticeable difference when u watch in the dark. I mean Does it make all worth it in the end, u know driving around assembling everything and putting it together? HAs it enriched the look of ure setup and the way u view tv
Can u also post some pictures of the final product attached to the tv.

[QUOTE=rstand;15802542]

Does it make a big noticeable difference when u watch in the dark. I mean Does it make all worth it in the end, u know driving around assembling everything and putting it together? HAs it enriched the look of ure setup and the way u view tv
Can u also post some pictures of the final product attached to the tv.

As many have posted, the blacks are richer and the colore slightly more vibrant. The big difference is the reduction in eye strain. I just went from a 46 inch to a 52 inch lcd, The new tv is a Samsung which produces a much better picture, but in a dark room was giving slight headaches. The bias lighting is a better alternative for me than having a light on in the room.
Pictures are not an easy thing for me because of the corner configuration. You should be able to visualize a gooseneck lamp clamped to the stand and shining towards the corner. The halo effect around the TV is much the same as other pictures posted in this thread. The driving, and assembly were a non issue for me.

[QUOTE=amp pop;15805199]

As many have posted, the blacks are richer and the colore slightly more vibrant. The big difference is the reduction in eye strain. I just went from a 46 inch to a 52 inch lcd, The new tv is a Samsung which produces a much better picture, but in a dark room was giving slight headaches. The bias lighting is a better alternative for me than having a light on in the room.
Pictures are not an easy thing for me because of the corner configuration. You should be able to visualize a gooseneck lamp clamped to the stand and shining towards the corner. The halo effect around the TV is much the same as other pictures posted in this thread. The driving, and assembly were a non issue for me.

the light in question is it a cone lamp like the home lamp u would normally screw in the socket of a ceiling fixture or is it T5 exactly like the idealume long and narrow? also u said its 40 watts as opposed to 13 watts in the idealume, wouldn t the light output be really strong and bright for this application?

i ve come across lights that say their cool white or soft white or even some other shade of white, are these to be avoided? It seems that their always calling a type of white but never just plain white.
Another thing, are the cone type bulbs that u would screw in to a socket the same as the long and narrow like the idealume one? I l mean if the specs are identical( 6500 k, cri%...)
would the shape of the light be of concern?

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the light in question is it a cone lamp like the home lamp u would normally screw in the socket of a ceiling fixture or is it T5 exactly like the idealume long and narrow? also u said its 40 watts as opposed to 13 watts in the idealume, wouldn t the light output be really strong and bright for this application?

The bulb is a compact florescent. In my post, I said it was 40 watt "equiv". It is actually an 10 watt florescent. Here is the link for the bulb;
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2903278&cp=2568454.2632229.2632283.2632285&pg=8&parentPage=family

This is the link for the fixture;
[url]http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/p1_Staples-Black-Gooseneck-Incandescent-Clip-Lamp_140227_Business_Supplies_10051_SEARCH[/url

For my setup, I would likely need to dim the Ideal Lume with the baffle, that is why I am using the 10 watt bulb. I tried a 15 watt which is a 60 watt equiv and it was too bright.

As I said in my first post, right now I am pleased with the result and will decide on my next step in a few weeks. I any case, I will not go without some type of bias lighting while watching TV in a dark room.

i ve come across lights that say their cool white or soft white or even some other shade of white, are these to be avoided?

Yes, Cool white = 4050K & Solf white = 2700k. The most common term used for 6500K lamps is Daylight.

i ve come across lights that say their cool white or soft white or even some other shade of white, are these to be avoided?

If a bulb is labelled 6500K it might be 6500K. If it's not labelled 6500K it certainly isn't 6500K.

well it doesnt say daylight, instead it says 6400 k ,t5 fluorescent lamp. The cri is 82 %, is what hte guy told me. He said if i want it at 90% and higher it would be a custom order and would cost more. Would i notice the difference between the 82% nad the 90%?
Is 6400 k ok, will it it do the job or i absolutly need 6500k?

the only thing im missing is now to find a way to control the light output. I get good illumination all around the screen but its not dim enough. I could leave as it is but im sure it wont give mr the advantages a bias light is suppose to this way. Is there a doityourself filter solution or do i have to find someone or somewhere that sell it. Ive heard of aluminum foil, opaque mesh and other cheap ways of filtering the lamp. But i want something that will give all the benefits of bias lighting as well to enhance it. I went on the lee nd filters but its to complicated to find what im looking for.
Thats really all i need and then to use the dve hd basisc dvd to get the required 10%
of the white on the screen.
So waht do i do to filter part of the light?

Are you using a tube or are you using the gooseneck setup?

Are you using a tube or are you using the gooseneck setup?

T5 fluorescent tube wikt a thin white aluminum fixture, just like the I.L.

Do an internet search. You will need to find some type of light blocking film to turn down the brightness. Check the CinemaQuest website. They include light blocking kits with their high end IdealLume products. This is what you need to find.

Do an internet search. You will need to find some type of light blocking film to turn down the brightness. Check the CinemaQuest website. They include light blocking kits with their high end IdealLume products. This is what you need to find.

I searched the whole wide web,lol. I found a lot of companies that make filters that never specify if they would be for tv. Also since these filters are specialized and specific they tend to cost alot almost as much as buying the idealume standard.
Cinemaquest sell T8 and T12 filters and dont give any specs about them.
Ive heard of placing aluminum foil to filter the light.
Anyway if u know of a cheap alternative DIY way or solution to controlling the light output then please let me know.
Do u think that any light source is better than no light at all. Can unfiltered light give me eyestrain because my setup is within specification of 6500 k and not the regular conventional home light on the ceiling fixture. What would be the difference?

Cinemaquest sell T8 and T12 filters and dont give any specs about them.
Completely false.

if its completely false then tell whats true, cause i just went again on ure site and again failed to find any filter that will fit the T5 bulb. Like i said there is only for T8 and T12, graphics and plasma filters, and some older models of filters but there is nothing ti fit ure modern idealume. Im not calling u a lie er but i just can find them.
Do i need to filter the lamp to get it down to 10% of the whitest white point of my lcd?
What would it change if i left it this way?

if its completely false then tell whats true
Descriptive specifications are listed in the individual product descriptions in our online store for both the T8 and T12 filter sets.

Do i need to filter the lamp to get it down to 10% of the whitest white point of my lcd?
What would it change if i left it this way?

Assuming that you have a 6500K lamp and fixture you need to mount it and dim it. In most cases the fixture is not visible so how neat it looks is not important. You have seen suggestions regarding opaque material for dimming. That's what you should be doing. You can use cardboard, foil, mesh or duct tape. Or anything else that's opaque. Cover enough of the bulb to get the amount of light you need while getting reasonably uniform illumination around the TV as shown in the photographs posted in this thread. It's not that hard. It's time consuming and annoying but not that difficult.

As an alternative. If you buy an I-L standard and have it shipped to me I'll forward it to you. For free. Since I work across the river from Fort Erie this is no great hardship.

Descriptive specifications are listed in the individual product descriptions in our online store for both the T8 and T12 filter sets.

yes u are right that T8 and T12 are explained but i was specifically referring to the T5 filter witch i didnt see in the u re store with the exception of the one that come s with the complete idealume set. I need a filter to use on my setup witch happens to be a T5 bias light assembly.
If cinemaquest does sell this filter let me know.

Assuming that you have a 6500K lamp and fixture you need to mount it and dim it. In most cases the fixture is not visible so how neat it looks is not important. You have seen suggestions regarding opaque material for dimming. That's what you should be doing. You can use cardboard, foil, mesh or duct tape. Or anything else that's opaque. Cover enough of the bulb to get the amount of light you need while getting reasonably uniform illumination around the TV as shown in the photographs posted in this thread. It's not that hard. It's time consuming and annoying but not that difficult.

As an alternative. If you buy an I-L standard and have it shipped to me I'll forward it to you. For free. Since I work across the river from Fort Erie this is no great hardship.

Yesterday i tried aluminum foil. i rapped it all around and no light was able to go through. Its was like watching tv in the dark, again. I get it that the mesh and duct tape, there both opaque, but cardboard or foil are not. Would nt any other color other than opaque get in the way of the goal were trying to achieve with the bias light, that is to render colors fuller and get deeper blacks without messing up the accuracy. I will try duct tape tonight and see how that goes but i hope that the glue from the tape wont get stuck on the the protective plastic cover as i remove the tape.
If that doesnt get the job done right, then i will consider ordering the idealumestandard and have it shipped to u, really though thanks for the help.
I know its easy to do this bias light assembly but its like i m never sure if its the done the right way when its done. But i guess the idealume should make me feel more comfortable since its already assembled and it takes all of the guess work out of the way, plug and play baby. Btw i order the dve dvd so that should help me with light accuracy.

Yesterday i tried aluminum foil. i rapped it all around and no light was able to go through.

After you get the disc you can begin the time-consuming process of removing the right amount of foil/mesh/etc. to get to 10%.

Are you a Francophone?

After you get the disc you can begin the time-consuming process of removing the right amount of foil/mesh/etc. to get to 10%.

Are you a Francophone?

Well i guess u can classify me as francophone because i do speak french fluently but English is my preferable language. Yeah born and raised and Montreal Quebec. I called up the store where i bought the light from and they told me that i can return it for a full refund. So should keep trying with the DIY
light or should i get the idealume standard? Now as it is, can i still achieve any good results without the dve dvd? What do u think i should do?

What do u think i should do?

I'll send you a PM

I have the ideal lume standard behind my pz800. But, I cannot seem to get the bias lighting dim enough to suit me. I have not tested the 10% of the whitest white, but I do have my light at its lowest output. Unfortunately, because the ISF calibrated THX setting on the pz800 is pretty dark, the bias light seems to decrease my enjoyment of watching the television. Is this normal? Is my tv too dark? Am I doing something wrong? Maybe my eyes need adjusting to the light? Does anyone have experience with bias lighting behind the pz800?

You can rotate the fixture as well as the baffle tube to reduce even more the illumination reaching the wall. It's also available to request an additional light block film to increase the width of the one that is in the tube. That produces a narrower aperture. Smaller TVs in front of a bright white wall may require this.

Proper implementation of bias lighting enhances image quality and viewing comfort. It's required that the illumination on the wall be 10% or less of peak white. That's what is "normal." The technique is applicable to all TVs, not just yours.

What color is your wall? When are you planning to verify whether or not you have it adjusted to the recommended level? How big is your TV?

is it possible to calibrate my tv with the dve dvd without the bias light mounted on the back of the tv( i havent received the light yet). Is the calibration gonna be different ones i get the light? Can i go ahead and start calibrating my set now or is it better to wait to include the bias light in the calibration?