dm145,
why should it matter if you convert everything to 1080i. I suspect that scaling is done on playback, not on recording. I would think that what is recorded by the DVR is whatever is coming down the cable at the resolution of the signal. Any thing else adds nothing to the digital signal other than taking up more space.

That depends completely upon the bitrate of the HD programming. The capacity of the drive is 150.6625 2-to-the-30th GB (the marketing number is quoted in 10-to-the-9th--billions--of bytes). There are two fixed 8.4 GB trick-play buffers, leaving 133.8626 GB for storage of recordings. That'll hold 20 hours of 15.97 Mbps. When the original SA8000HD was introduced, it had 5.4 GB trick-play buffers, leaving space for 20 hour at 16.68 Mbps.

Various HD services on your cable will probably have different average bitrates. For instance, CBS locally runs at around 13 Mbps; it'll hold around 24.5 hours of that. Fox run around 10 Mbps (it's trancoded to a broadcast rate before being fed to the affiliates, so the low rate looks pretty good); you can get about 32 hours of that on. ABC, on the other hand, runs 17 Mbps or better and you can only store 18.8 hours of that. TNT HD, ESPN HD and HDNet all average around 18.5 Mbps and you can only get about 17 hours of that in.

Given the mix of stuff that I record, I probably do get something like 20 hours.
I suspect that scaling is done on playback, not on recording. I would think that what is recorded by the DVR is whatever is coming down the cable at the resolution of the signal. Any thing else adds nothing to the digital signal other than taking up more space.You're absolutely right.

That depends completely upon the bitrate of the HD programming. The capacity of the drive is 150.6625 2-to-the-30th GB (the marketing number is quoted in 10-to-the-9th--billions--of bytes). There are two fixed 8.4 GB trick-play buffers, leaving 133.8626 GB for storage of recordings. That'll hold 20 hours of 15.97 Mbps. When the original SA8000HD was introduced, it had 5.4 GB trick-play buffers, leaving space for 20 hour at 16.68 Mbps.
Space allocated to trick-play buffers: Now *that's* a registry hack worth knowing. (Though I know of no way to effect it.)

Thank you Dave. I split the cable before entering the box and now my QAM finds more than 80 channels.

Alex

Space allocated to trick-play buffers: Now *that's* a registry hack worth knowing. (Though I know of no way to effect it.)I'm actually wrong about that 5.4 GB number for the 8000HD--it was something like 5.4 total. Those 8.4 GB buffers are supposed to be good for 1 hour each; they're big enough for an hour's worth of 20.4 Mbps content, a higher rate than I think that you'll find in use for any service on any system. The sad thing is that the length of trick-play is capped artificially at an hour, regardless of the average bitrate of the content being recorded. Each of the buffers would hold 2 hours of Fox.

I've never bothered to "upgrade" my box to an SA8300HD, so I still have my original SA8000HD (which has been working just fine). Unfortunately, they pushed firmware updates to Passport Echo 2.5.xxx (currently .041) this past winter, so I lost my extra 11.4 GB, which was worth another 1 hour 30 minutes to 2 hours 43 minutes (TNT HD max versus Fox HD min). I did get a few new features like incremental Title/Keyword search in exchange, but I'd really love to have the space back.

I agree--it'd be handy if they'd make the length of those buffers adjustable.

why should it matter if you convert everything to 1080i. I suspect that scaling is done on playback, not on recording. I would think that what is recorded by the DVR is whatever is coming down the cable at the resolution of the signal. Any thing else adds nothing to the digital signal other than taking up more space. One more vote agreeing with this. The various output resolutions are just that, output. The video is recorded in it's native format as sent out by the broadcaster.

The manual says 110 for SD and 24 for HD. First off, what manual ?? As others have said (or measured), every station or broadcaster sends at different bitrates. I'd guess that any numbers that the Scientific Atlanta lists for hours will be at the "standard" 19.xx Mb/s rate. This way, their number is "safe". If broadcasters send lower bitrates, customers will get more hours. No one complains if they get more only if they get less.

First off, what manual ?? As others have said (or measured), every station or broadcaster sends at different bitrates. I'd guess that any numbers that the Scientific Atlanta lists for hours will be at the "standard" 19.xx Mb/s rate. This way, their number is "safe". If broadcasters send lower bitrates, customers will get more hours. No one complains if they get more only if they get less.At the top of page 4, the SA8300HD spec-sheet (http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7004920.pdf) states:
The 160 GB model allows up to 90 hours* of SD programs or up to 20 hours* of HD programs to be recorded and stored using DVR functions. Gives subscribers complete control over watching, pausing rewinding, replayng and fast forwinding live programs using remote control.

*The total program hours that can be stored depends upon the format and data rate of the programming source.They lie. At the 19.39 Mbps theoretical maximum, the entire 150.6 GB (161 billion-byte) drive, no trick-play buffers reserved, would only hold 18 hours 30 minutes worth. The 133.9 GB that's actually available will only hold about 16 hours 30 minutes worth.

It could well be that the trick-play buffers used by SciAtl's own SARA software are smaller--who knows what the capacity is on units running that.

Are the SA8300HD DVR's this bad? I always had a Tivo before and things like this never happened. They also never rebooted as often as the SA units seem to. Are others having the same issues?Yes, others are having the same issues, but not everyone by any means, I do not suffer these ills. We all agree to disagree on just what is at the heart of the problems. Yes, you had a Tivo, but you did not have it on a cable system running the caleco's software and using the cableco's IPG. You were also not subject to the cableco sending intermitent data downline that causes the boxes to reset so frequently in some areas. I submit that if you could run Tivo software and use the Tivo IPG database on an 8300, the 8300 would function just fine. The other thing is you didn't pay ~$600-$1,000 for an 8300 dual-tuner HD DVR either.

They lie... Not exactly.... that's what the asterik is for and it covers their *ss. I'm sure that 20 hours is completely realistic given that most broadcasters don't transmit at the "full" 19.xx Mb/s bitrate.

So I had a weird thing happen last night. The box was set to automatically record Scrubs on NBC HD, it started recording as planned, but only recorded two minutes of the show, then ended. I can't figure out any explanation, there were programs that could have been erased to make room on the DVR, other things seem to be working fine. Quite strange. Any ideas?

So I had a weird thing happen last night. The box was set to automatically record Scrubs on NBC HD, it started recording as planned, but only recorded two minutes of the show, then ended. I can't figure out any explanation, there were programs that could have been erased to make room on the DVR, other things seem to be working fine. Quite strange. Any ideas?
Been reading *any* of the posts here? :confused:

Not exactly.... that's what the asterik is for and it covers their *ss. I'm sure that 20 hours is completely realistic given that most broadcasters don't transmit at the "full" 19.xx Mb/s bitrate.

hall, Great point - but when dealing with a 8300 we are dealing exclusively with cable (not "broadcasting") and an entirely different set of circumstances take place.

First, many broadcasters feed their HD programs to directly to cable via fiber or microwave - so the bit rate that cable has may well be higher (this is particularly true for many PBS stations).

Then, cable systems do their own "grooming", which likely reduces the bit rate.

In the end, the bit rate on cable is often quite different than the bit rate OTA.

FWIW, that is not the case here in Phoenix. Cox gets the signals OTA just like everyone else and the only "grooming" they do is QAM, no recompression, etc. This has meansured and checked numerous times by those who have such capability and multi-services. QAM does seem to introduce minor differences in the Mbps bitrates, but they are very, very small and probably more a difference in calculation techniques than anything else. I guess we are lucky that Cox does not mess wth the signal like other cableco's seem to do and D* certainly does. :)

I have posted the following in a forum discussing the VP30 scaler, but it pertains almost as much to the SA8300HD so I decided to post it here also for comments from others who use the SA8300HD. I recently converted to cable from Staellite. I am saving money (converted everything Video, Phone, Internet) and getting a higher quality picture. I actually like the 8300 better than the DirecTivo DVR, but it has some quirks that are driving me nuts. One is its tendency to just stop recording a program after a few moments, second is its treatment of audio and the documentation it suplies in that regard. Here is the post:

I have two SA8300HD's running through the VP30 using HDMI for both audio and video. I have two Sony DVD megachangers running through a component Switch into the VP30 using Digital Audio (coaxial) also through the VP30. Digital audio then goes from the VP30 to a Lexicon MC1. I am running 1.06 on the VP30. There is also a Roku Photobridge running through the same component switch/vp30 (same as the DVD players) which I use extensively for music (Mpeg3 and DTS ripped to WAV files).

I have played with the audio from the component switch both through the VP 30 and direct to the Lexicon. I have never had an audio dropout from the devices using the component connection. That is, I see no issue with the VP30 processing audio from DVD's or server based music.

With the DVR's I have had the audio directly to the Lexicon, through the VP30 via Toslink, and through the VP30 on the HDMI cable. There are audio dropouts using all three paths mentioned, and I do not see a marked difference no matter what the path is. My conclusion here is that the audio dropouts are from the cable system/DVR. What confirms that in my mind is that often the audio dropouts are accompanied by video pixelation confirming a signal problem.

The fastest switch/resync of audio on channel changes or audio format changes is with the VP30 out of the loop. The Lexicon handles these with no issues what so ever. The next best scenario is with the DVR audio going through the VP30 via the Toslink path. The worst performance is with the audio going through the HDMI cable (which is the one I really want). An interesting configuration option (for testing) would be audio pass through bypassing any processing of the audio. I bet it will look just like it does when I cable around the VP30. It would allow comparative audio testing without recabling, IF and only IF it was a true pass through.

My system reports and displays the Lexicons status in real time providing the exact type of audio it is seeing (AC-3, DTS, PCM, none; 2.0 channels, 5.1 Channels, etc). It is interesting to watch with the three paths mentioned above. Direct to the Lexicon is clean and precise. A switch from AC3 5.1 to AC3 2.0 (AC3=DD) happens once (generally when watching a HD show in DD 5.1 when a SD commercial pops up) and no "fumbling" or stuttering. It happens precisely as the picture on the screen changes. Similarly for the switch back from SD commercial to HD feature. With the audio on the Toslink VP30 input there is significant delay (audio alignment trailing picture change) with some fumbling (by fumbling I mean AC3-None - AC3 - none - AC3...). With the Audio via HDMI the problem just worsens. The alignment delay is longer and there is often more fumbling until sync/alignment is achieved. In a positive sense one might say the VP30 with the HDMI connected audio is trying harder.

The other issue I have seen is that if I want to switch between the audio on HDMI vs the Audio on the Toslink (both are cabled), switching to the Toslink from HDMI is no problem. Switching back however (Toslink to HDMI) almost always requires a reset of the VP30 to factory defaults. That is a pain in the butt when trying to find out what is going on!

As far as I can tell it does not matter if the DVR (SA8300HD) is set to output HDMI or Digital Dolby. It really should though according to the SA8300HD manual. The manual states that the Digital outputs (Digital optical, Digital Coaxial, HDMI) will all be the same. If set to HDMI then the output will be formatted and controlled by what the TV (the other end of the HDMI connection) says it can accept. If it is set to Dolby Digital the audio output will always be what is sent by the station. I am not convinced it works as specified, in fact I am pretty sure it does not. I find it amusing in that my "TV", a BENQ projector accepting input on DVI, takes in no audio so it tells the DVI/HDMI connection nothing about its capability to accept audio. Perhaps silence is golden. The question really is what does the VP30 (an HDMI repeater) tell the upstream source (the DVR) about the audio capabilities of the downstream TV when it does not accept any audio. Hopefully it states it can accept any and all audio formats.

As an aside, I spent two days reading the HDMI specs. I am getting to old for this. I use to eat that stuff up now I just want it to work. Life for me is clearly getting shorter.

I live about an hour east of Orlando and will be at the EHx show on Friday. I have offered the DVDO team to come spend time at my place to look at the VP30 in a real theater setting and play with it. The offer still stands and is also open to anyone from SA or BHN.

Dave,

I have been under the impression that QAM is a more efficient encoding system than ATSC. While ATSC OTA at 19MBps occupies a 6MHz channel, a 6MHz QAM channel on cable typically holds TWO HD channels of around 14MBps with space left for TWO additional SD channels. It would seem that 1MBps OTA does not equal 1MBps QAM.

Can anyone illuminate this?

First, many broadcasters feed their HD programs to directly to cable via fiber or microwave - so the bit rate that cable has may well be higher (this is particularly true for many PBS stations). Your local TV stations will NOT be sending "full" bitrate HD (when I refer to "full", I mean the typical 19.37Mb/S number) if they multicast. Your mention of PBS is in fact the complete opposite because most PBS stations *do* multicast.

Channels like Discovery HD, InHD, HDNet, and so on are known to always transmit at the "full" bitrate. Channels like Showtime and HBO, on the other hand, often have rates in the 9-12 Mb/s rate.

It all comes down to what you're recording. Given that, any number of hours is an estimate, hence the footnote that SA or the cablecos always include.
Then, cable systems do their own "grooming", which likely reduces the bit rate. In the end, the bit rate on cable is often quite different than the bit rate OTA. I've read the same that DoubleDAZ commented on in that typically cablecos do NOT reduce the bitrate or compress. In fact, there's supposedly a LAW that prohibits them from doing anything of the sort to digital signals. For what it's worth, the head of network engineering at my TW has told me they don't "manipulate" the signal in any way.

I have been under the impression that QAM is a more efficient encoding system than ATSC. I think you mean 8VSB instead of ATSC. And yes, QAM is more efficient than 8VSB.

First, many broadcasters feed their HD programs to directly to cable via fiber or microwave - so the bit rate that cable has may well be higher (this is particularly true for many PBS stations).

Then, cable systems do their own "grooming", which likely reduces the bit rate.

In the end, the bit rate on cable is often quite different than the bit rate OTA.It's possible, but my impression is that they generally do not "groom" OTA stuff. It would constitute modification of rebroadcast content, which they're not allowed to do without permission. I wondered about this once in a local San Diego forum, and the chief engineer at my local Fox broadcaster attested that he was unaware of the local cable providers messing with their signal.

However they get the feed, I'm also fairly certain that they get it post-processing, tranrated to broadcast rate (most of the network affiliates get their feed at an un-broadcastable 45 Mbps) and with ads, news and locally scheduled programming already added.

If they were "grooming" it (at least locally), I'd expect the bitrates to be less consistent. I sampled an aggregate 1200+ hours of programming on PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox as rebroadcast by my local TWC SO last year and the average bitrates were highly consistent from program to program on a given network, but varied quite significantly between networks. ABC was the highest, at 17 Mbps, NBC averaged 14.7 Mbps, CBS 13 Mbps, PBS 11.6 Mbps and Fox came in at 10 Mbps (again, supposedly what they get from the networks). (CBS, NBC and Fox had notably higher averages during live sports telecasts). Now, if they're grooming that content, ABC is obviously slipping them some cash under the table :).
I have been under the impression that QAM is a more efficient encoding system than ATSC. While ATSC OTA at 19MBps occupies a 6MHz channel, a 6MHz QAM channel on cable typically holds TWO HD channels of around 14MBps with space left for TWO additional SD channels. It would seem that 1MBps OTA does not equal 1MBps QAM.

Can anyone illuminate this?256 QAM is a "more efficient" modulation than the 8 VSB modulation used by ATSC, principally in that much less bandwidth is used for noise-rejection features. That also makes it inappropriate for use in the much-noisier-than-broadband medium of air broadcasting, though it is used in some air data transmissions.

256 QAM will carry almost exactly twice the payload of 8 VSB in 6 MHz; 38.8 Mbps aggregate as opposed to 19.39 Mbps. How the cable provider allocates that to subchannels is up to him. Locally, Fox, NBC and PBS HD share one carrier, while CBS, ABC and a couple of SD things are on another. They've also started simulcasting digital versions of their SD analog services, stuffing 13 of them to a carrier.

Not exactly.... that's what the asterik is for and it covers their *ss. I'm sure that 20 hours is completely realistic given that most broadcasters don't transmit at the "full" 19.xx Mb/s bitrate.What I mean by that is that there's not enough storage on the DVR to carry 20 hours of the 17 Mbps by programming on my ABC affiliate. Their assumption of a "reasonable rate" is about 16 Mbps--that's what it'll hold 20 hours of. That's not too bad, since it's not unlikely that, drawn from different HD channels, the content that you record may well not average as high as 16 Mbps, but the statement is nonsense. Using the highest rate I'm getting from any broadcaster (ABC), it can only record "as much as" 18 hours, 40 minutes; for the lowest rate (Fox), it can record "as much as" 33 hours.

With the DVR's I have had the audio directly to the Lexicon, through the VP30 via Toslink, and through the VP30 on the HDMI cable. There are audio dropouts using all three paths mentioned, and I do not see a marked difference no matter what the path is. My conclusion here is that the audio dropouts are from the cable system/DVR. What confirms that in my mind is that often the audio dropouts are accompanied by video pixelation confirming a signal problem. . . . Life for me is clearly getting shorter.
Thank you for taking the time to post your experiences. Unfortunately, HDMI - at least as implemented (and I use that term l-o-o-s-e-l-y) by SA in the 8300HD - is shortening everyone's life who's trying to use it. I consider it to be Not Quite Ready For Primetime and I avoid it like the plague. One of my 8300HD's is connected via component to a hi-def Sony XBR CRT and coaxial digital to a Denon AVR; it works flawlessly never dropping audio or skipping/missing recordings. My "serious" system's 8300HD is connected to an external DVI switcher via an HDMI-to-DVI cable and - again - coaxial digital to an IR RDC-7. And *that* 8300HD also works flawlessly with minimal to no handshake problems if I follow a certain powering up/switching procedure.

Regarding cablecos and any manipulation or "grooming" of the stations they receive, my eyes can perceive NO difference between what I get OTA vs what I get via cable.

Your local TV stations will NOT be sending "full" bitrate HD (when I refer to "full", I mean the typical 19.37Mb/S number) if they multicast. Your mention of PBS is in fact the complete opposite because most PBS stations *do* multicast.

I was referring to the fact that most do Multicast and if (they do here in Rochester) they provide a direct feed to cable, the cable will have a much higher bitrate. In retrospect, I should have made that clearer.

BTW: The local (Rochester) PBS & ABC stations feed HD to cable via fiber. The local NBC does not (they get HD OTA). The local CBS & Fox stations have not permitted cable to carry their HD signals (these stations are owned by Nexstar & Sinclair).

I think you mean 8VSB instead of ATSC. And yes, QAM is more efficient than 8VSB.

Correct.!

It's possible, but my impression is that they generally do not "groom" OTA stuff. It would constitute modification of rebroadcast content, which they're not allowed to do without permission. I wondered about this once in a local San Diego forum, and the chief engineer at my local Fox broadcaster attested that he was unaware of the local cable providers messing with their signal.
Our local ABC station CE once told me that he knew they were doing some "grooming", but did not know the details, and he could not see the difference between OTA and cable. This station does not multicast.

However they get the feed, I'm also fairly certain that they get it post-processing, trancoded to broadcast rate and with ads, news and locally scheduled programming already added.
Perhaps I am not sure what you are getting at - but I don't think CABLE is adding any adds or anything. Perhaps, you meant network feeds to local stations (who transcode to add ads, etc.).

If they were "grooming" it (at least locally), I'd expect the bitrates to be less consistent. I sampled an aggregate 1200+ hours of programming on PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox as rebroadcast by my local TWC SO last year and the average bitrates were highly consistent from program to program on a given network, but varied quite significantly between networks. ABC was the highest, at 17 Mbps, NBC averaged 14.7 Mbps, CBS 13 Mbps, PBS 11.6 Mbps and Fox came in at 10 Mbps (again, supposedly what they get from the networks). (CBS, NBC and Fox had notably higher averages during live sports telecasts). Now, if they're grooming that content, ABC is obviously slipping them some cash under the table :).
A lot of this observation may depend on how cable receives the HD signal and whether the station is multicasting. If cable receives it OTA and the station multicasts, then the cable bitrate will be pretty much limited by the station. If cable receives via fiber or microwave, then the bitrate will be higher. It may be that the ABC station is providing them with a better signal.

256 QAM will carry almost exactly twice the payload of 8 VSB in 6 MHz; 38.8 Mbps aggregate as opposed to 19.39 Mbps. How the cable provider allocates that to subchannels is up to him. Locally, Fox, NBC and PBS HD share one carrier, while CBS, ABC and a couple of SD things are on another. They've also started simulcasting digital versions of their SD analog services, stuffing 13 of them to a carrier.
Just a minute here! Are you saying that the Fox HD, NBC HD and PBS HD stations are on one 6MHz 256QAM channel? If so, either these 3 stations are really limiting bandwidth, or the cable system is doing some grooming. Two HDs and a couple of SDs on one 256QAM are the norm around here.

PePar,

What precisely are your powerup and switching procedures?

PePar,

What precisely are your powerup and switching procedures?
Have everything else powered on and booted up FIRST, including the DVI switch (set to the STB's input) and THEN turn on the 8300HD. Eight times out of ten it works perfectly. The other two times I get the "use the component connection, dummy" screen which is remedied by pressing the 8300HD's power switch, after which it reconsiders and works perfectly.

Thanks. I never turn my units off. The only thing I get are the large black areas until I either use the guide, the List or change channels. it definately has something to do with the scaler.

A lot of this observation may depend on how cable receives the HD signal and whether the station is multicasting. If cable receives it OTA and the station multicasts, then the cable bitrate will be pretty much limited by the station. If cable receives via fiber or microwave, then the bitrate will be higher. It may be that the ABC station is providing them with a better signal.I don't think that's necessarily true Dave, and again, I think that this is an area where we're just have to agree to disagree. It's quite possible that things are different in your area, but I'm fairly certain that it's not happening here.

Just because the broadcaster is delivering their feed to the cable company by fiber doesn't mean that they're delivering anything to them other than the stream that they're broadcasting over the air, whether they're multicasting or not. You don't get the 45 Mbps national feed over-the-air--it's been transrated to fit in the bandwidth and local advertising, station IDs and locally scheduled programming--local news, etc--is inserted. Ads for local furniture stores, car dealerships, etc, local political campaign ads, short and long spots telling what's coming up on the next local newscast; all of these things are inserted into slots in the national feed, throughout the day, including primetime, by the local affiliate. It's this stream, ready for broadcast, that gets delivered to the cable systems, whether OTA or by wire, at least in my neck of the woods.
Just a minute here! Are you saying that the Fox HD, NBC HD and PBS HD stations are on one 6MHz 256QAM channel? If so, either these 3 stations are really limiting bandwidth, or the cable system is doing some grooming. Two HDs and a couple of SDs on one 256QAM are the norm around here.Untrue. In aggregate, Fox, NBC and PBS HD are averaging 36.4 Mbps; CBS and ABC together average 30.24 Mbps and the two SD services (a digital rebroadcast of the analog OTA PBS channel, whose content is different than PBS HD and a very-poor-bitrate SD digital cable service called "Horse Racing TV") consume about an addition 6 Mbps on average. Packaged in MPEG-2 Transport Streams together, they all fit in the 38.8 Mbps of a 6 MHz carrier. During the day, when there's almost no HD programming, they'll never come anywhere near filling the capacity. There might be the infrequent brief moment when everybody peaks in primetime, exceeding the 2.4+ Mbps margin that they allowed in both of those streams (probably causing glitches as packets are dropped), but they'll be extremely infrequent and extremely brief.

The fact remains that if they were "grooming" these stations, they'd place 3 each to a carrier and cap the bitrate of any of them to to 12.9 Mbps, insuring that they'd all fit nicely. The fact that they consistently average quite significantly different rates locally is inexplicable in that context.

I'm also certain that they cannot legally modify the content given them to broadcast without permission of the broadcaster. Why they'd be given permission to potentially degrade the quality of the broadcast is beyond me.

Mike,

I'm surprised that stations in your area are not feeding cable in some other way. But your data on Fox, NBC and PBS indicates that they are not in your area (I assume that PBS in your area has at least 2, if not 3 subchannels and the NBC station has at least one - the NBC weather feed). These subs are not on the HD QAM (may be on separate channels).

Re: degrading - I believe part 76 says "not materially degrade" but I don't want to dig into that (right now) again. I know SA documentation (for the front end) talks about the ability to do this - but I agree that they probably are not doing that.

I'm surprised that stations in your area are not feeding cable in some other way. But your data on Fox, NBC and PBS indicates that they are not in your area (I assume that PBS in your area has at least 2, if not 3 subchannels and the NBC station has at least one - the NBC weather feed). These subs are not on the HD QAM (may be on separate channels).As I've stated, Fox is broadcasting a stream which is encoded to broadcast bitrates at the national level--the affiliates get it encoded at that rate and broadcast it w/o modification, other than insertion of station-ID bugs, local advertisement and local programming. They provided all of their affiliates with a free piece of equipment for splicing ads and other content into the stream, as well as laminating in overlays (like their station ID bugs). This enabled to get HD broadcasting up very quickly, since the affiliates didn't have to buy a bunch of expensive equipment for transrating the typical 45 Mbps national feed. Since they're doing that, they no doubt want to keep the bitrate of their broadcast as low as possible, leaving as much space for multicasting as they can. Anything else would be unfair to their non O&O affiliates, barring them from potential profit opportunities. But it also allows them absolute control of picture quality--they don't have to worry about the affiliates bunging up their broadcasts by transrating it with pooirly programmed equipment. Even at 10 Mbps, though it's not the sharpest broadcast in my area, it's usually much more than decent, and never exhibits any severe encoding artifacts.

AVS Forum participant Steve "Cheezmo (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=63)" Martin keeps a site online called the "Dallas/Ft. Worth HDTV Bitrate Monitor (http://www.widemovies.com/dfwbitrate.html)". He logs estimates using data from his DirecTiVo, which can make recordings from both DirecTV and OTA sources. At the bottom of that page, you can see his recent readings from things recorded OTA from his local Fox affiliate, which are functionally identical to the numbers that I'm getting from the same stuff recorded on cable.

NBC locally is multicasting "Weather Plus" (I don't think that it's available on the cable system). PBS is currently multicasting a national SD channels called "Create TV" (also not available on cable) and one or two datacasting streams. Two members of KPBS' staff, an engineer and their general manager, Doug Myrland, are participants in our local hdtv.forsandiego.com forum; they've disclosed the encoder bitrate caps that they've used and my measurements for KPBS over the cable are totally consistent with that.

I don't know what CBS has in their stream other than their main channel content. ABC can't be broadcasting much of anything else, at least not in primetime. The average that I'm getting from the cable rebroadcast leaves less than 2 Mbps (I've measured hours that hit 18 Mbps).

Thanks for the latest Mike. I did not realize that FOX was limiting it (bitrate) in their feed. That makes perfect sense, as FOX originally was promoting their "Widescreen ED" (480p) in order to preserve space for multicasting.

I'm pretty sure that most NBC stations are carrying the "Weather Plus" channel nowdays.

If little Rochester, NY has stations feeding cable with fiber, I would have expected other (larger market) areas to be doing that too. The ABC station (which feeds with fiber) doesn't even do 5.1 yet (they didn't go to Stereo until 1999 or so). People here do see A BIG difference on the PBS station between OTA (lots of artifacts) and cable (great picture). The local cable system does carry ALL of the sub channels of PBS and the NBC Weather Plus on SD QAM. (I think that PBS has a national agreement with the major cable firms to do this).

Do I have everyone's attention? :)

On 3/17 I posted this information from my DIAG:

Passport Echo 2.2.020
PowerTV 6.8.9.4sp
OS Date: Aug 11, 2004

In the last two days I've noticed an additional dialog to confirm deleting a recorded program. And today I noticed scanning forward in the IPG (more than 3 hours) was a LOT faster and the program listings were blacked out during fast scan. These two behavior changes lead me to go into DIAG, which now says:

Passport Echo 2.5.043
PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
(ResApp Date: Dec 2, 2005)
OS Date: Feb 13, 2006

And I now have a new "page":

Multi-Room DVR
MR-DVR Status:
Last Message: Welcome to MR-DVR

If you've been following my posts, you'll undoubtably remember that my provider's technical director has been helpful in relaying Pio/Aptiv's messages re the SATA port. Less likely remembered is a very early statement I posted from him re their internally testing MR. (We are still weeks away from the 3/1 date Pio/Aptiv projected for making code "available for head-end testing" which (among other things) supported the SATA port.)

I will fire off an email to the tech director as soon as I've completed this post. His pattern has been to reply the same day and I will pass along whatever he says. I do NOT think this is the long-awaited "SATA" version, but rather the MR version they've been testing. Now, it's getting interesting!

I thought that Multi-Room was really cool until I found out that the satellites could only play back SD recordings. Still, it has a lot of use for many families, who do tons of recording SD stuff for their children.

I thought that Multi-Room was really cool until I found out that the satellites could only play back SD recordings. Still, it has a lot of use for many families, who do tons of recording SD stuff for their children.
Well, that would certainly take the luster off of the featuire and, for me as well, drop it back into the "who gives a sh1t" category. Continuing the metaphor, I should have the straight poop on it soon.

Yeah, I was looking forward to multi-room capability myself until I found that out. I was hoping that it could take an HD recording and down-convert it to SD on my non-HDTV set but that "can't" be done supposedly. Oddly the 8300HD can do it to it's own outputs (RF, composite, and S-Video), but not through the "networked" RF connection.

It would save me a monthly DVR fee but I'm sure they'll offset that by charging me a "multi-room" fee.

First known event with the DD vs. PCM setting bug.
It must happen when you even dare *speak* the interface that shall not be named.

TWC-KC
Component
rev 1.2 (02/09/2005)
1.8.112
6.14.43.3sp
Analog & Coaxial audio in use

v/r,
C-F

First known event with the DD vs. PCM setting bug.
It must happen when you even dare *speak* the interface that shall not be named.

TWC-KC
Component
rev 1.2 (02/09/2005)
1.8.112
6.14.43.3sp
Analog & Coaxial audio in use

v/r,
C-F
HAH! "The Interface formerly know as #@%&"

LAst night I noted the following:

I was set to record two programs at the same time. The recording light went on, I checked and both were being recorded according to the List display. I switched back to my other 8300 and a few minutes later I switched again to the unit doing the recording.

I am connected on the %$&@ interface to from the recorders to the DVDO VP30 scaler. The screen flashed the dreaded message about my display not being HDCP compliant The scaler was definitely having a problem and it is actually the scaler that provides that message to the DVR.

I went back to the other DVR. A few moments later a looked at the lights on the DVR that was supposedly recording my two programs and the red light was off. I switched to it (no display compliance problems) and sure enough the unit had terminated recording of both programs.

That is definitely not right under any circumstances. Recording should have nothing to do with the HDCP compliance of the display. Only playback of the recording should. Even if the unit did a reboot (which I am not sure of, but it should not have done) it should started to record the programs again.

Has anyone else seen behavior like this?

LAst night I noted the following:

I was set to record two programs at the same time. The recording light went on, I checked and both were being recorded according to the List display. I switched back to my other 8300 and a few minutes later I switched again to the unit doing the recording.

I am connected on the %$&@ interface to from the recorders to the DVDO VP30 scaler. The screen flashed the dreaded message about my display not being HDCP compliant The scaler was definitely having a problem and it is actually the scaler that provides that message to the DVR.

I went back to the other DVR. A few moments later a looked at the lights on the DVR that was supposedly recording my two programs and the red light was off. I switched to it (no display compliance problems) and sure enough the unit had terminated recording of both programs.

That is definitely not right under any circumstances. Recording should have nothing to do with the HDCP compliance of the display. Only playback of the recording should. Even if the unit did a reboot (which I am not sure of, but it should not have done) it should started to record the programs again.

Has anyone else seen behavior like this?
A workaround "might" be to have it "turned off" and never watch anything on a DVR that's recording. With two boxes, you're configuration is better than most.

I am thinking about that, but it should not be necessary. I really wish SA monitored these boards and made an effort to clean up their product. There does not seem to be any way of contacting them.

I am thinking about that, but it should not be necessary.
Roger that. Which is why it's called a work AROUND. :)

FWIW, many times I'm watching something on the component video/coaxial digital-connected box while it's recording with nary a hiccup. It really is the @#$% interface that's causing all the drama.

Barry,

First, SA responds to their customer's (the cable companies) requests to customer changes.

Second, this thread is about SA8000/8300HD with Passport SW. It is the SW that needs to be cleaned up - and Passport SW is not SA's product!

Barry,

First, SA responds to their customer's (the cable companies) requests to customer changes.

Second, this thread is about SA8000/8300HD with Passport SW. It is the SW that needs to be cleaned up - and Passport SW is not SA's product!
I think we could view the cablecos as "buffers" between us and the hardware/software makers . . .

I think we could view the cablecos as "buffers" between us and the hardware/software makers . . .
By "buffer" you imply that the feedback gets through (but delayed).

Nontheless, he was commenting about SA when he should have been commenting on Aptiv!

You sound like you are affiliated with SA. My SA8300 software is passport. Thanks for the info on Passport, I was not aware of that. I now understand that Pioneer is the supplier of Passport. I assume that their customers are also the "Cable companies". I am trying to work this issue through my cable company. They just called me back and are researching the issue. At leat they called back.

By "buffer" you imply that the feedback gets through (but delayed).
Yes, but buffers sometimes get flushed, in which case it goes nowhere. :)

Yeah, I was looking forward to multi-room capability myself until I found that out. I was hoping that it could take an HD recording and down-convert it to SD on my non-HDTV set but that "can't" be done supposedly. Oddly the 8300HD can do it to it's own outputs (RF, composite, and S-Video), but not through the "networked" RF connection.I'm been assuming that it transmits recorded MPEG-2 over the coax in your home. The restriction on playing HD video would stem from the fact that in order to do that, it'd have to create downscaled video raster of the HD MPEG-2 (which, as you point out, it already does continuously for its analog outputs); in addition to that, it'd have to encode that simultaneously into MPEG. Now, it would actually seem to have all of these pieces; it has to digitize and MPEG-encode analog channels when it records them. But those pieces are almost certainly not that modular; it probably can't use the "encode" part of the hardware which performs the digitize-and-encode of analog SD on an existing bit-raster. In any case, the "create-downscaled-video-raster" part is constantly in use when the box is in its "ON" state and tuned to a digital channel.

There's a little Multi-Room DVR manual for the SARA (not Passport) version of this box here (http://www.twcnatdiv.com/StJohn/site_dvr/MultiRoomDVR/MultiRoomDVRManual.pdf). On the front page it states:
Record all of your favorite programs on the Explorer® 8300™ Digital Video Recorder (DVR), and then play them back in any room that has a Scientific-Atlanta digital set-top box*The footnote that goes with that asterisk says:
* The Scientific-Atlanta digital set-tops must be Explorer 2000 Rev 3, or later, standard-definition set-top boxesLater, on page 6:
Press Select to play back the program.

Note: Recordings whose titles are gray in the Recorded List are high-definition programs or erased programs. You cannot play high-definition programs on the MR-DVR client set-tops.I can understand the restriction when using an SD satellite. My question would be why not support HD satellites as well? Maybe they want to minimize the bandwidth required to serve video to the satellites. Perhaps there's only so much additional HDD activity it can handle while sustaining normal operation on the DVR for the television directly connected to it. Who knows :rolleyes:?

I find it difficult to believe that the engineers at SA and/or Pioneer's Aptiv Digital division aren't aware of these forums. I'm sure that many of the problems that we discuss here have been fixed long ago by the time that we see the fixes. The cable providers can't fix the firmware and the engineers at SA and Pioneer who do can't push them into the field. The cable providers are very conservative about pushing new firmware revs.

I suspect they do know of these forums and might even observe. It just seems that a little two way dialog with people who truly know what the software/hardware is capable of would be nice. No insult to anyone intended. I belong to several other forums where such dialogs take place and I believe all benefit.

I'm been assuming that it transmits recorded MPEG-2 over the coax in your home. The restriction on playing HD video would stem from the fact that in order to do that, it'd have to create downscaled video raster of the HD MPEG-2 (which, as you point out, it already does continuously for its analog outputs); in addition to that, it'd have to encode that simultaneously into MPEG. Now, it would actually seem to have all of these pieces; it has to digitize and MPEG-encode analog channels when it records them. But those pieces are almost certainly not that modular; it probably can't use the "encode" part of the hardware which performs the digitize-and-encode of analog SD on an existing bit-raster. In any case, the "create-downscaled-video-raster" part is constantly in use when the box is in its "ON" state and tuned to a digital channel.
Seems unnecessarily complicated. Since the DVR recorded the transport stream as it received it, why can it pass it as is to the next box by IP address?

I suspect they do know of these forums and might even observe. It just seems that a little two way dialog with people who truly know what the software/hardware is capable of would be nice. No insult to anyone intended. I belong to several other forums where such dialogs take place and I believe all benefit.
The cablecos are not only a buffer between subscribers and hardware/software makers, they're FIREWALLS as well.

Seems unnecessarily complicated. Since the DVR recorded the transport stream as it received it, why can it pass it as is to the next box by IP address?That's what I'm saying that it does, in essence. The question I was addressing was why it can't pass an HD stream to the SD satellites.

hall said "I was hoping that it could take an HD recording and down-convert it to SD on my non-HDTV set but that 'can't' be done supposedly." I was explaining why I think that it can't do it. Sorry if I was unclear :).

The further question is why it can't support HD satellites (if it could, hall could use one of them and connect its SD analog outs to his remote SD TV :D). It might be that it lacks the capacity to handle streaming files at HD bitrates while simultaneously recording two HD programs and playing back a third. Servicing the satellites isn't supposed to affect its operation.
The cablecos are not only a buffer between subscribers and hardware/software makers, they're FIREWALLS as well.Yeah--if SA or Aptiv revealed to us that they'd made a solution for some hot-topic problem available to the cable providers, it would just make the SOs look even worst than they do. We are not customers of Scientific Atlanta or Aptiv Digital and we never will be. (Well, I guess that "never will be" remains to be seen :)).

That's what I'm saying that it does, in essence. The question I was addressing was why it can't pass an HD stream to the SD satellites.

hall said "I was hoping that it could take an HD recording and down-convert it to SD on my non-HDTV set but that 'can't' be done supposedly." I was explaining why I think that it can't do it. Sorry if I was unclear :).

The further question is why it can't support HD satellites (if it could, hall could use one of them and connect its SD analog outs to his remote SD TV :D). It might be that it lacks the capacity to handle streaming files at HD bitrates while simultaneously recording two HD programs and playing back a third. Servicing the satellites isn't supposed to affect its operation.
I'm not clear on something; will an HD MR-DVR be able to pass HD material to another HD MR-DVR?

I'm not clear on something; will an HD MR-DVR be able to pass HD material to another HD MR-DVR?Read the second quote from the MR-DVR User's Guide that I made in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7361019&&#post7361019) post above. According to it, it can only be used with non-DVR SD STBs.

Read the second quote from the MR-DVR User's Guide that I made in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7361019&&#post7361019) post above. According to it, it can only be used with non-DVR SD STBs.
Would that be a SARA MR-DVR User Guide? :)

Would that be a SARA MR-DVR User Guide?Yes it is. But I'm fairly sure that Aptiv isn't going to do any more than expose the feature through Passport. Thus far, though I prefer it greatly to what I've seen of SARA, Passport can't do anything that SARA can't, being built on SA's PowerTV RTOS and middleware.

Who knows? Maybe they have created a more powerful implementation of this than SA did, but I doubt it.

Okay, a little confirmation. Aptiv's PR (http://www.pioneerbroadband.com/presscenter/pressreleasesdetail.asp?index=1) on the MR-DVR roll-out is all about how Blue Ridge Communication is the first to bring the feature to its customers. On Blue Ridge's site, the "What is Multi-Room DVR? (http://www.brctv.com/prodserv/dvr/multiroom_DVR_what.php)" page states, at the bottom:
High Definition (HD) programs can be recorded, however they cannot be accessed on other TVs to view.They don't say that the Multi-Room DVR can't be accessed using an HD STB (to play SD recordings). You'd think that at least that much would be possible. Why should an HD STBs not be able to do what the SD ones can do?

They don't say that the Multi-Room DVR can't be accessed using an HD STB (to play SD recordings). You'd think that at least that much would be possible. Why should an HD STBs not be able to do what the SD ones can do? Forget the fact that it's an "HD" set-top. It's only "HD" for the TV it's directly connected to. There's NO reason to assume or think that an HD set-top won't be able to access non-HD material on the "server" DVR.

It looks like this is shaping up to be absolutely worthless - to me. We already have DVRs on every display with an STB. (Two have no boxes and are still "analog.") If hi-def programming can't be "place shifted", I will never use the MR feature. Hopefully, I'll get a reply from my cableco soon.

Forget the fact that it's an "HD" set-top. It's only "HD" for the TV it's directly connected to. There's NO reason to assume or think that an HD set-top won't be able to access non-HD material on the "server" DVR.Though it doesn't make any sense, the SATA implementation of this capability explicitly does not support the use of HD STBs. From "Getting Started With the Multi-Room™ DVR System (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4003869.pdf)", page 1:
Record all of your favorite programs on the Explorer® 8300™ Digital Video Recorder (DVR), and then play them back in any room that has a Scientific-Atlanta digital set-top box** The Scientific-Atlanta digital set-tops must be Explorer 2000 Rev 3, or later, standard-definition set-top boxes
Later, on page 13:
What Features Are Not Currently Supported in MR-DVR? Currently, MR-DVR does not support Explorer HD set-tops as client set-tops. The HD recordings from the MR-DVR server are not available for playback on Explorer HD set-tops in a multi-room environment.(Groan :rolleyes:--that last sentence certainly tries to cloud the matter). I think that they're not supporting SD playback on HD boxes because they can't do HD playback.

This is not to say that Aptiv's implementation of the feature in Passport won't support SD playback on HD STBs. They don't seem to be actively ruling it out for the SARA version. But can you imagine the load of streaming 3 files at HD rates to satellites while playing a 4th HD recording at the television attached to the DVR and recording two new HD programs simultaneously? That's what this feature would require the box to be able to do. Personally I don't think it's modest little 5400 RPM HDD is up to it.

Currently, MR-DVR does not support Explorer HD set-tops as client set-tops. The HD recordings from the MR-DVR server are not available for playback on Explorer HD set-tops in a multi-room environment.
Currently???

They don't say that the Multi-Room DVR can't be accessed using an HD STB (to play SD recordings). You'd think that at least that much would be possible. Why should an HD STBs not be able to do what the SD ones can do? Forget the fact that it's an "HD" set-top. It's only "HD" for the TV it's directly connected to. There's NO reason to assume or think that an HD set-top won't be able to access non-HD material on the "server" DVR.

hall - it's like deja vu all over again. :)

Forget the fact that it's an "HD" set-top. It's only "HD" for the TV it's directly connected to. There's NO reason to assume or think that an HD set-top won't be able to access non-HD material on the "server" DVR.

I have Blue Ridge and the MR 8300 and you can NOT access the Server 8300 using an HD client. They say in the future...

I have Blue Ridge and the MR 8300 and you can NOT access the Server 8300 using an HD client. They say in the future...
Another reason to live longer . . . :)

I have Blue Ridge and the MR 8300 and you can NOT access the Server 8300 using an HD client. They say in the future... I'd love to know the technical logic behind not being able to do this. An HD set-top doesn't exclusively have to deal with HD programming.

I'd love to know the technical logic behind not being able to do this. An HD set-top doesn't exclusively have to deal with HD programming.
Perhaps it's "marketing" logic.

I'd love to know the technical logic behind not being able to do this. An HD set-top doesn't exclusively have to deal with HD programming.That's what I was trying to say in my last post--they're not prepared to explain to people why HD STB satellites of their MR-DVR can't play HD content recorded on it. If they only allow SD satellites, it's obvious that they shouldn't be able to play it. It's just lame :rolleyes:.

AlbanyHDTV's DST reminder post in the SARA (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7371227&&#post7371227) thread probably still applies to Passport users who have not given in and set all their Series Recordings to [any time].

v/r,
C-F

Well, not "applies" so much as serves as a reminder of the bug on 'our' side...

I have a new 50PX60U Panny plasma. It has very little overscan.

When viewing ABC HD (Channel 710 in San Diego) in 720p with the SA8300HD, I see a few lines of video noise at the top of the picture. I don't have this problem if I set the SA8300HD to output in 1080i, but I'd like to watch material broadcast in 720p w/o conversion.

If I either: a). view this same channel (10.1) OTA using an external antenna, or b) I plug in the TWC cable directly into the tv (bypassing the SA8300HD) and view the unencrypted HD signal (Channel 10.1), then the lines are gone.

So I know the SA8300HD is either shrinking the picture slightly or is moving the picture down slightly.

I haven't found a way to adjust the overscan in the Panny. So is there any way to fix this problem in the SA8300HD?

I haven't found a way to adjust the overscan in the Panny. So is there any way to fix this problem in the SA8300HD?
Nope.

After reading through all the posts, I am still unsure about scaling issues. I want to buy a plasma, but I want to use the tv's smart stretch (where it stretches out the edges and leaves center more intact). I have the SA 8300 HD with Passport, and the three options for how to handle 4:3 on the STB are "sidebar", "zoom", and "stretch". I understand I should have all outputs enabled to allow the signal to pass through without being converted, but what 4:3 setting do I use? If I choose sidebar, will the tv see the input as a full screen with the sidebars and be unable to stretch the sidebars off the screen? If I use stretch, will the tv again see the input as a full screen and be unable to do any of its own stretching? Is there a way to send the signal through to the tv so that it sees the 4:3 image and is able to utilize all it's aspect modes? I am so confused...please forgive me if this is a lame question.

After reading through all the posts, I am still unsure about scaling issues. I want to buy a plasma, but I want to use the tv's smart stretch (where it stretches out the edges and leaves center more intact). I have the SA 8300 HD with Passport, and the three options for how to handle 4:3 on the STB are "sidebar", "zoom", and "stretch". I understand I should have all outputs enabled to allow the signal to pass through without being converted, but what 4:3 setting do I use? If I choose sidebar, will the tv see the input as a full screen with the sidebars and be unable to stretch the sidebars off the screen? If I use stretch, will the tv again see the input as a full screen and be unable to do any of its own stretching? Is there a way to send the signal through to the tv so that it sees the 4:3 image and is able to utilize all it's aspect modes? I am so confused...please forgive me if this is a lame question.
Unless someone else has it figured out differently, you may need to give up on the idea of using your display's smart zoom. When you "tell" the 8300HD you have a 16:9 display it will always output a 16:9 image. Of course, that means attaching sidebars onto a 4:3 image. And if you display is like all of the ones I've encountered, your smart zoom function will not be available over DVI/HDMI anyway. I guess you could get it to work with a 480i component connection if you set display type (in the 8300HD's settings) to 4;3, but that'd be a lot of work switching back and forth just to stretch an image, IMO, unnaturally.

After reading through all the posts, I am still unsure about scaling issues. I want to buy a plasma, but I want to use the tv's smart stretch (where it stretches out the edges and leaves center more intact). I have the SA 8300 HD with Passport, and the three options for how to handle 4:3 on the STB are "sidebar", "zoom", and "stretch". I understand I should have all outputs enabled to allow the signal to pass through without being converted, but what 4:3 setting do I use? If I choose sidebar, will the tv see the input as a full screen with the sidebars and be unable to stretch the sidebars off the screen? If I use stretch, will the tv again see the input as a full screen and be unable to do any of its own stretching? Is there a way to send the signal through to the tv so that it sees the 4:3 image and is able to utilize all it's aspect modes? I am so confused...please forgive me if this is a lame question.

I have a Sony XBR LCD, which has a "wide zoom" (stretch-o-vision) mode. If I set the SA8300 to "stretch", enable all the output resolutions, and set the TV to "wide zoom", it accomplishes what I believe you are trying to do. The 8300 and TV only apply these modes to 4:3 transmissions, and shows 16:9 normally.

It will not of course stretch 4:3 content contained in a 16:9 transmission.

P.S. I can only speak for "component" connection.

I have a Sony XBR LCD, which has a "wide zoom" (stretch-o-vision) mode. If I set the SA8300 to "stretch", enable all the output resolutions, and set the TV to "wide zoom", it accomplishes what I believe you are trying to do. The 8300 and TV only apply these modes to 4:3 transmissions, and shows 16:9 normally.

It will not of course stretch 4:3 content contained in a 16:9 transmission.

P.S. I can only speak for "component" connection.
Got a Sony myself with "wide zoom." If you have a 16:9 display selected on the 8300HD it outputs only a 16:9 image. If you set the 8300HD to stretch, it will stretch the 4:3 source to fill the 16:9 display. The bars will be gone, but the stretch is a simple one and not the same as the Sony's wide zoom which, I believe, is not available when being fed a 16:9 image. The only way I know is to tell the 8300HD that it is connected to a 4:3 display, and then the wide zoom will only be available with a 480i signal.

I could be wrong . . .

Got a Sony myself with "wide zoom." If you have a 16:9 display selected on the 8300HD it outputs only a 16:9 image. If you set the 8300HD to stretch, it will stretch the 4:3 source to fill the 16:9 display. The bars will be gone, but the stretch is a simple one and not the same as the Sony's wide zoom which, I believe, is not available when being fed a 16:9 image. The only way I know is to tell the 8300HD that it is connected to a 4:3 display, and then the wide zoom will only be available with a 480i signal.

I could be wrong . . .

No, actually the TV is smart enough to "wide zoom" an actual 4:3 transmission, and also reconfigue prestreched 4:3 to 16:9 input to a "wide zoom" presentation.

I don't know how it knows, but it knows.

So again, SA8300 in 16:9 TV type, all resolutions activated, 4:3 in the "stretch" mode, TV in the "wide zoom" mode. Again, none of this affects actual 16:9 transmissions.

What's nice is that the TV will also "wide zoom" the 4:3 encoded special feature portions of a DVD which is otherwise 16:9.

I waffle back and forth as to whether or not I prefer "wide zoom" or 4:3 with gray bars. Recently I've been using the bars with the overscan feature activated.

No, actually the TV is smart enough to "wide zoom" an actual 4:3 transmission, and also reconfigue prestreched 4:3 to 16:9 input to a "wide zoom" presentation.

I don't know how it knows, but it knows.

So again, SA8300 in 16:9 TV type, all resolutions activated, 4:3 in the "stretch" mode, TV in the "wide zoom" mode. Again, none of this affects actual 16:9 transmissions.

What's nice is that the TV will also "wide zoom" the 4:3 encoded special feature portions of a DVD which is otherwise 16:9.

I waffle back and forth as to whether or not I prefer "wide zoom" or 4:3 with gray bars. Recently I've been using the bars with the overscan feature activated.
I had come to see any stretching as distorting the picture and had stopped using it anyway. I mean, after all, we don't try to vertically stretch 2.35:1 material to fill 1.78:1 displays, do we? Besides, much 4:3 these days is news and talking heads, and they're big enough already. :)

Is there any way on the SA8300 with Passport software to toggle through the intensity of the gray bars. Scientific Atlanta's website indicates that capability in it's generic set up instruction manual, but it does not seem to apply to my STB.

Is there any way on the SA8300 with Passport software to toggle through the intensity of the gray bars. Scientific Atlanta's website indicates that capability in it's generic set up instruction manual, but it does not seem to apply to my STB.
My previous SA box - 3250 maybe - had a setting to change the grey level of the sidebars, but it seems to be missing from the 8300HD/Passport.

Is there any way on the SA8300 with Passport software to toggle through the intensity of the gray bars. Scientific Atlanta's website indicates that capability in it's generic set up instruction manual, but it does not seem to apply to my STB.

In Passport, no. In SARA (which the SA manual refers to), yes.

One way around this problem, which is highly display dependent is to set the 8300 to 16:9 and 4:3 Stretch mode. Then have your display set to 4:3 (or some other comparable picture size mode) for SD content, which will shrink the image back to its normal size. Assuming your display puts in black sidebars and the 4:3 mode is available for 480p inputs, this should work nicely. On my Samsung DLP and LCD it works great.

Is there any way on the SA8300 with Passport software to toggle through the intensity of the gray bars. Scientific Atlanta's website indicates that capability in it's generic set up instruction manual, but it does not seem to apply to my STB.
Remember that the SA website documentation applies to systems with SA software (SARA) - it DOES NOT (necessarily) APPLY TO PASSPORT!

There are pros and cons to each - but being able to set level of the gray bars is one (small) advantage of SARA.

There are pros and cons to each - but being able to set level of the gray bars is one (small) advantage of SARA.
Perhaps grey sidebars are more neutral and will mitigate burn-in?

Perhaps grey sidebars are more neutral and will mitigate burn-in? I don't recall if it's my TV's manual or where, but it was stated/suggested that this is exactly the case.

On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.

Perhaps grey sidebars are more neutral and will mitigate burn-in?

I think that's definitely what they are designed for. It would just be nice for those of us who don't care about burn-in to not have to stare at those distracting bars, esp. in a dark room.

On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.
There are many different colors of electrical tape available.

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------
Whoaa! We just got a new one a week ago, but I didn't see the SATA status entry. Gotta go check . .

edt: Nope, don't have anything about SATA. (I'm at 2.5.043.)

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------
I'd call the cableco and ask, but it *seems* like you're good to go.

That's funny. I went through channel 999 and that is the only thing I noticed too. I haven't seen any definite changes in any other functionality (But then again I have only played around for about ten minutes or so.)

I have an internal SATA drive handy, but I don't have a an external enclosure to try it out.

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------

WOOT! I will check this when I get home. Sounds like it's time to buy an external SATA drive. If it won't work on the 8300, I'll just hook it up to my new gaming rig, so no worries about it not being used. :-)

I'd call the cableco and ask, but it *seems* like you're good to go.

That (calling the cableco) is not likely to yield useful information. I most all SARA systmes (where eSATA is enabled), the cable people on the phone either have no clue or just routinely say that it is not. The concept of people attaching external equipment (other than TVs & VCRs) is foreign to them. People need to try it to find out if it works.

That (calling the cableco) is not likely to yield useful information. I most all SARA systmes (where eSATA is enabled), the cable people on the phone either have no clue or just routinely say that it is not. The concept of people attaching external equipment (other than TVs & VCRs) is foreign to them. People need to try it to find out if it works.
I completely understand, but someone above the telephone CSRs knows about the (seemingly) activated SATA because it was most likely a concious decision on their part to activate it. Escalation - polite, but insistent - is probably necessary to get to the proper person.

I don't argue with escalation - but the people you get STILL may not know. If it is a function that is built into the latest version (and not something specifically enabled at the system level) (and this was the case with SARA) then any person you talk to may not know.

If you get a YES answer - then you can be pretty sure it works (or should work)

But if you get a NO answer - then you still don't know. People who have SARA found out by trying - not by the cable company telling them it would work.

If you find the right person at your cableco, I assure you, they'll know the details of the release in far more detail than you'll care to know about.

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------

YES !!!!
It works. I just hooked up a hard drive and it works. Remember though you will need the special SATA\ESATA cable. I'm heading to Tiger Direct now to get a bigger HD.
I actually took off today to get DISH installed with all it's HD glory, but alas my neighbors trees had it in for me. The SATA support salvages an other wise disappointing day.

I don't argue with escalation - but the people you get STILL may not know. If it is a function that is built into the latest version (and not something specifically enabled at the system level) (and this was the case with SARA) then any person you talk to may not know.

If you get a YES answer - then you can be pretty sure it works (or should work)

But if you get a NO answer - then you still don't know. People who have SARA found out by trying - not by the cable company telling them it would work.

I'm with you Dave. It's been my experience that even TWC "techie" people have given me totally wrong information (IEEE1394 stuff mainly). Unless someone has a specific name of a "known" smart guy at TWC, I wouldn't waste my time talking to them. Good luck to anyone with the patience to try though!

Anyone else having problems with HDMI after the upgrade. All I get now is snow with the HDMI connection, I had no problems before. Component still works fine.

If you find the right person at your cableco, I assure you, they'll know the details of the release in far more detail than you'll care to know about.
But HOW do you know that you reached the right person? Or that they are telling you the truth? The cable systems with SARA do not usually acknowledge that the external drive port works - why does anyone expect systems with Passport to be any different?

Just as with SARA, the bottom line will always be someone in a area with latest version of SW trying it.

YES !!!!
It works. I just hooked up a hard drive and it works. Remember though you will need the special SATA\ESATA cable. I'm heading to Tiger Direct now to get a bigger HD.
I actually took off today to get DISH installed with all it's HD glory, but alas my neighbors trees had it in for me. The SATA support salvages an other wise disappointing day.

YES - Your note came in while I was writing my last response. Apparently you are the first one on Passport, and you found out by trying it.

Please let us know where you are located, your cable system and your version of Passport. The location really should be in your profile.

I have a USB2.0 Iomega Hard drive. Is there some type of Sata to USB2.0 cable that I can use for this Hard Drive to work or no? Thanks

YES !!!!
It works. I just hooked up a hard drive and it works. Remember though you will need the special SATA\ESATA cable. I'm heading to Tiger Direct now to get a bigger HD.
I actually took off today to get DISH installed with all it's HD glory, but alas my neighbors trees had it in for me. The SATA support salvages an other wise disappointing day.
Before you get too excited, familiarize yourself with the dark side on the ironically-named thread 8300HD and SATA - It Works!! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5277957&&#post5277957) which, up until now has been populated with SARA-istas.

There, you will find that it is not generally possible to mate any drive with the 8300HD. OK, you'll learn a LOT more than that, but it's a start. :)

I completely understand, but someone above the telephone CSRs knows about the (seemingly) activated SATA because it was most likely a concious decision on their part to activate it.I strongly doubt that--though it's a feature settable from the CO, I'm fairly sure that it's enabled by default in the SATA boxes.

If you have a this new version of Passport where the feature is enabled, you could always buy one of Maxtor's prefab external drives which were designed specifically for this purpose at weakness.com (here (http://www.weaknees.com/maxtor_qvx.php)--I got the link from an ad at the top of this page :)): $189 for 160GB and $289 for 300. These drives are a bit pricey, but they support newfangled ATA streaming protocol commands which were designed specifically for use in PVRs and which the SA8300HD may be using.

At PriceGrabber.com I see one e-tailer selling the the naked 300GB QuickView (see this (http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=3081042/search=quickview)) for $214.94 before tax and shipping.

I strongly doubt that--though it's a feature settable from the CO, I'm fairly sure that it's enabled by default in the SATA boxes.
Maybe, but I'm with hall in that someone there will "know the details of the release in far more detail than you'll care to know about."

Maybe, but I'm with hall in that someone there will "know the details of the release in far more detail than you'll care to know about."Oh, they'll quite definitely have the release-notes in hand and reviewed them thoroughly before deploying the release in the field. Whether any of the tech CSRs that you can talk to have access to this information is another thing; maybe, maybe not :).

YES - Your note came in while I was writing my last response. Apparently you are the first one on Passport, and you found out by trying it.

Please let us know where you are located, your cable system and your version of Passport. The location really should be in your profile.

Sorry, I just figured since I replying to your post, you would assume I was from the Raleigh area too; Cary actually.
Same versions as you...

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------

Also posted success in the "Raleigh, NC - HDTV" forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=147473&page=136&pp=30

But HOW do you know that you reached the right person? To be honest, you get lucky. When I first got my 8000HD, I discovered a configuration bug on my local system's end. I honestly don't know how I got a good e-mail address but I did and she escalated it up the chain. I eventually was put in touch with the top guy. By the way, you need to speak to people on the engineering side for issues/subjects like this. My local TW is divided up between engineering and operations and possibly other divisions or departments. Or that they are telling you the truth? You don't (or won't know otherwise). What I do know is that my contact hasn't told me anything false yet. He's NOT answered some questions, mind you, but the answers he has given me have all been true.

A trusted source just emailed me this: "Aptiv (Pioneer) is now saying six more weeks until the SATA port will operate." Maybe Raleigh/Durham is a beta site? We should all temporarily subscribe to the "Raleigh, NC - HDTV" thread to watch for bugs.

A trusted source just emailed me this: "Aptiv (Pioneer) is now saying six more weeks until the SATA port will operate." Maybe Raleigh/Durham is a beta site? We should all temporarily subscribe to the "Raleigh, NC - HDTV" thread to watch for bugs.

You might want to get another source. TWC in Raleigh moves at snails pace and unlikely is a beta site. Ecspecially with an email that went out to all TWC subscribers telling us not to tough our boxes after 3am last night.

You might want to get another source. TWC in Raleigh moves at snails pace and unlikely is a beta site. Ecspecially with an email that went out to all TWC subscribers telling us not to tough our boxes after 3am last night.
The "beta" thing is my speculation in an attempt to reconcile Aptiv saying "six more weeks" and you posting what you've posted. There could be a perverse logic at work in selecting - paraphrasing here :) - a "backwater" for beta testing.

The "beta" thing is my speculation in an attempt to reconcile Aptiv saying "six more weeks" and you posting what you've posted. There could be a perverse logic at work in selecting - paraphrasing here :) - a "backwater" for beta testing.

"backwater" ???
You 'ought to come down and visit. You sure got a pretty mouth.

"backwater" ???
You 'ought to come down and visit. You sure got a pretty mouth.
I took that to be your meaning with the "snail's pace" comment. And I used a smiley. Take a pill, buddy.

I took that to be your meaning with the "snail's pace" comment. And I used a smiley. Take a pill, buddy.

Sorry, I was all out of smileys.

Is there such a thing as a USB to Sata Cable? I have a USB Hard Drive and I am interested in connecting it to the sata port on the 8300 box. Im in Raleigh so im interested to see if this works or not.

Is there such a thing as a USB to Sata Cable? I have a USB Hard Drive and I am interested in connecting it to the sata port on the 8300 box. Im in Raleigh so im interested to see if this works or not.
There might be enclosures that hold a USB drive and present an SATA interface to the 8300HD, although I don't remember seeing one. More likely, the other way around - an SATA drive with the enclosure converting to USB.

edit: I just googled and couldn't find the device you seek - at least not on the first few pages.

Is there such a thing as a USB to Sata Cable? I have a USB Hard Drive and I am interested in connecting it to the sata port on the 8300 box. Im in Raleigh so im interested to see if this works or not.
Wait a minute - Are you sure it's a true USB drive, or an SATA/IDE drive with the gizmo I just mentioned converting it to USB?

I've never heard of anyone making a naked HDD with a built-in USB interface. They're all in some kind of enclosure and I'm guessing that they're all IDE or Serial-ATA drives with USB bridges inside of the case.

Maybe some of the tiny little USB powered pocket HDDs are like that.

Dig in, HDTV-NUT, some disassembly required! :)

Is there such a thing as a USB to Sata Cable? I have a USB Hard Drive and I am interested in connecting it to the sata port on the 8300 box. Im in Raleigh so im interested to see if this works or not.

USB to SATA

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812156014

If it was me I'd just rip out the hard drive from the enclosure you have and drop it in a dedicated SATA enclosure, rather than mess around with converter cables.

If you can't wait to experiment the Tiger Direct store on Capital Blvd might also have it in stock. It's more expensive there though.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1699339&CatId=81

USB to SATA

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812156014


This gizmo is the exact opposite of what he's asking about, VisionOn.

This gizmo is the exact opposite of what he's asking about, VisionOn.

it should work in both directions but I'd go for a full enclosure.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817145018

edit: no scratch that you might be right. I can't tell from the photo if it has the correct plug for the 8300.

ya, the USB HD has a differnt USB connection too. its the one that looks like a printer usb connection. i may just order the Sata Drive from weakness.com.

Before you guys get too carried away - take the advice that pepar posted earlier today and check out (I mean REALLY check out) the 8300HD and External SATA-It Works! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=516559&page=1&pp=30) thread. You want a PURE SATA drive with a minimum of "stuff" between the drive and the 8300. The more headroom that the drive has to deal with, the more skips and jumps you will encounter. I strongly suggest that you take these questions (like using USB) there - where people who have experience with these drives are active.

ya, the USB HD has a differnt USB connection too. its the one that looks like a printer usb connection. i may just order the Sata Drive from weakness.com.Though somewhat more pricey than cobbling together your own solution, the Maxtor QuickView Expander is almost certainly a sure-fire option. When it appeared, the SA8300HD was the only DVR that it was designed to support and Maxtor announced that it began shipping them to TWC (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-05-2005/0002769915&EDATE=) back in January. (Probably for use in their SARA-using systems at first).

I do notice that there are reports of problems uing the Maxtor product with SARA in that thread prepar gives a link to.

Anyone else having problems with HDMI after the upgrade. All I get now is snow with the HDMI connection, I had no problems before. Component still works fine.
Yes! That's why I'm checking in here tonight. I, too, am in the Raleigh, NC and was upgraded today to 2.5.048. I observed the new delete confirmation as my first clue.

However, unlike previous, I now must actually reboot my STB after powering on my HDMI-connected Pioneer Elite plasma display, or all I see is snow. Power cycling (or I guess pseudo-power-cycling the STB is not sufficient so far).

I'm going to call TW tomorrow to complain. I really don't want to retreat to component video, and don't see why I should have to since my set up worked just fine for months until this upgrade. On the other hand, if I can now add a SATA drive, my complaints may be calmed.

Digital sound is much louder than analog sound.

Time Warner of Orange, Ca, 8300HD, still using my ancient SD TV via composite, so no HDMI issues, receiver set to auto selecting digital via s/pdif or L/R analog pair. The receiver only has level adjustments on the analog inputs, 0, -3, and -6, and 0 still leaves the digital much louder.

"Audio Level"
The setup on the DVR has this at 92, record 92. I haven't touched it since I am not really sure what it does, and its kinda late right now to play with loud sounds.

Any ideas on this? Very annoying since many analog programs apparently have digital commercials.

**************** Just read the latest on SATA, I am so all over that if it really happens.

Anyone else having problems with HDMI after the upgrade. All I get now is snow with the HDMI connection, I had no problems before. Component still works fine.

Yes.... me too. Two upgrades ago HDMI-DVI worked fine for me. One upgrade ago, HDMI-DVI went flakey... Would work for a while and then throw the black box with the 'non-compliant - use component' message. Now... I get absolutely nothing when I plug in the HDMI-DVI cable. Component blanks and indicates No Signal. Same on DVI input. Bummer. DVD player still works great on DVI input. Power cycled... rebooted... no joy.

I did order a Weaknees external HDD though..... Hopefully there will be joy there.

To the people having HDMI issues.

My HDMI is now working fine. Restarting the 8300 fixed my problem.

If after you restart and it still dosent work, call TWC and they will replace it.

To the people having HDMI issues.

My HDMI is now working fine. Restarting the 8300 fixed my problem.

If after you restart and it still dosent work, call TWC and they will replace it.

my passport hdmi to dvi is workiing on two boxes fine. however cablevison sara is another story

Who has the "beta" Passport software (i.e., 2.5.xxx)?

So far I can confirm:

1) Raleigh, NC - 2.5.048 (they just got upgraded to add SATA support) :D
2) San Diego, CA - 2.5.041 :cool:

Anyone else?

Who has the "beta" Passport software (i.e., 2.5.xxx)?

So far I can confirm:

1) Raleigh, NC - 2.5.048 (they just got upgraded to add SATA support) :D
2) San Diego, CA - 2.5.041 :cool:

Anyone else?
Not TWC, but I've got 2.5.043. But it's not a beta. I'm guessing the 048 may be though as it supports SATA six weeks before Aptiv says it'll be ready.

**************** Just read the latest on SATA, I am so all over that if it really happens.
As they say, "be careful what you wish for." Suggest you read a few pages in the ironically named "8300HD and External SATA - It Works!!"

it should work in both directions but I'd go for a full enclosure.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817145018

edit: no scratch that you might be right. I can't tell from the photo if it has the correct plug for the 8300.
I don't think an SATA-to-USB adapter is the same as a USB-to-SATA adapter, physically or electronically.

As they say, "be careful what you wish for." Suggest you read a few pages in the ironically named "8300HD and External SATA - It Works!!"

pepar, What's so ironic about that name? It is not ironic for those with SARA.

pepar, What's so ironic about that name? It is not ironic for those with SARA.
That many of the posts on the "SATA works!!" thread are from people having problems with it NOT working strikes me as ironic. :)

Who has the "beta" Passport software (i.e., 2.5.xxx)?

So far I can confirm:

1) Raleigh, NC - 2.5.048 (they just got upgraded to add SATA support) :D
2) San Diego, CA - 2.5.041 :cool:

Anyone else?

I can confirm Orange County, CA to have 2.5.048 Seeing the noise on HDMI also.

That many of the posts on the "SATA works!!" thread are from people having problems with it NOT working strikes me as ironic. :)

You just must not have been paying attention. The majority who do it right are NOT having problems - I've had mine for almost a year now and I don't have any problems related to the ext HD (let's not confuse that with unrelated problems with SARA). Further, as we all know, forums are commonly turned to by people having problems and are looking for help.

I have a SA8300HD TWC via HDMI->HDMI to my new NEC 50XR.

I have my new Oppo DVD hooked up via DVI->HDMI and my

Had no problems till I hooked up the Oppo with DVI->HDMI.

When I switch between the Oppo and the STB as sources for the panel, the SA8300->Panel connection looses it handshake (I see snow, not a no signal indication) however if I go back to the Oppo it displays fine. In order to resolve the issue I must power cycle the panel. If I choose the Oppo as a source again the same thing happens.

I understand it could be the STB or NEC, However I know for a fact the NEC Switches fine between 2 "pure" HDMI sources.

Seems like the SA8300 has a hard time "re-establishing the HDMI connection"

Is it a common problem to have switching issues between HDMI inputs when one is DVI->HDMI and the other is just HDMI->HDMI.

Thoughts anyone?

I have a SA8300HD TWC via HDMI->HDMI to my new NEC 50XR.

I have my new Oppo DVD hooked up via DVI->HDMI and my

Had no problems till I hooked up the Oppo with DVI->HDMI.

When I switch between the Oppo and the STB as sources for the panel, the SA8300->Panel connection looses it handshake (I see snow, not a no signal indication) however if I go back to the Oppo it displays fine. In order to resolve the issue I must power cycle the panel. If I choose the Oppo as a source again the same thing happens.

I understand it could be the STB or NEC, However I know for a fact the NEC Switches fine between 2 "pure" HDMI sources.

Seems like the SA8300 has a hard time "re-establishing the HDMI connection"

Is it a common problem to have switching issues between HDMI inputs when one is DVI->HDMI and the other is just HDMI->HDMI.

Thoughts anyone?

It is not unusual for the SA8300 to need for the receiver (display) to maintain it's connectivity and to shut down the HDMI output when that is lost (all part of the HDCP implementation) and to require that the display be powered up inorder to initiate a new handshake.

My understanding is that cable (Motorola as well as SA) implementations of HDCP are all this way.

You did not specify how you were switching HDMI connections. Some receivers (Denon for one) that switch do not work with cable STBs. Generally there are no issues switching VDV players and satellite STBs with these receivers. I also understand that other (Sony for example) have no problems switching HDMI from cable.

The fact that your Oppo is DVI has no bearing on what you are experiencing.

You just must not have been paying attention.
Well, that's always a possibility! :)

The majority who do it right are NOT having problems - I've had mine for almost a year now and I don't have any problems related to the ext HD (let's not confuse that with unrelated problems with SARA). Further, as we all know, forums are commonly turned to by people having problems and are looking for help.
A truism, for sure. But since they don't - or rarely - post, we don't know how many are not having problems. Sorta hard to say x% of the universe (of users) has working SATA drives when we don't know how big the universe is. And I read a fair number of posts where a combo that works perfectly for one person hoses the dickens out of the next person's box. So it's not a matter simply "doing it right." That fact - no one combo works everywhere - is very troubling to me. Honestly, I think you should consider yourself lucky to have a trouble-free setup.

I thought I'd add this to our body of knowledge or, as the case may be, our body of speculation. :) The reason my cableco upgraded the 8300HD's to Passport 2.5.043 was that SA has begun shipping a new HARDWARE rev. My cableco did not do it to add MR. In fact, they become a Comcast property May 1 and do not know if Comcast will introduce MR.

Anybody have any comments on just what the new hardware rev may be? New HDMI chip maybe?

I have a SA8300HD TWC via HDMI->HDMI to my new NEC 50XR.

I have my new Oppo DVD hooked up via DVI->HDMI and my

Had no problems till I hooked up the Oppo with DVI->HDMI.

When I switch between the Oppo and the STB as sources for the panel, the SA8300->Panel connection looses it handshake (I see snow, not a no signal indication) however if I go back to the Oppo it displays fine. In order to resolve the issue I must power cycle the panel. If I choose the Oppo as a source again the same thing happens.

I understand it could be the STB or NEC, However I know for a fact the NEC Switches fine between 2 "pure" HDMI sources.

Seems like the SA8300 has a hard time "re-establishing the HDMI connection"

Is it a common problem to have switching issues between HDMI inputs when one is DVI->HDMI and the other is just HDMI->HDMI.

Thoughts anyone?

I have the 8300HD and the Oppo both connected to my Samsung HLP5063 and have had isolated similar issues. I have the Oppo connected via DVI/HDMI to the HDMI in on my Samsung and the 8300 connected via another HDMI/DVI cable to the DVI input on the Samsung. So there are no direct HDMI/HDMI connections.

The only time I really remember experiencing the issue you are describing is when I first got the Oppo. I had already had the 8300 for a while and had a Panny S97 connected HDMI / HDMI previously to the Samsung w/ no issues on the 8300. But when I first connected the Oppo (I think I was in DVI mode for the 8300 at the time), the 8300 gave me the "Unsupported Signal Please Connected Component" (not exactly what it said) message. It took a few cycles of shutting everything down, unplugging and replugging (I forgot in which order) before it all worked.

But since then I rarely (maybe once) experience the problem. I always leave my 8300 on and by default my Samsung is on DVI (for the 8300). When I want to watch a DVD, I will typically power on the Oppo wait for it to load up (which usually takes a while) and then switch over to HDMI on the Samsung. When I am done and switch back to DVI for the 8300 I haven't had issues.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful since I don't remember specifics of how I fixed the problem initially but the fact that I have two DVI/HDMI connections (and previously had no issues w/ 1 HDMI / HDMI and 1 DVI/HDMI) suggests to me that it's not a problem w/ the 8300 or my display (could be a problem w/ your display).

To the people having HDMI issues.

My HDMI is now working fine. Restarting the 8300 fixed my problem.

If after you restart and it still dosent work, call TWC and they will replace it.
Yes, rebooting fixes it, but the next time the TV is power off and back on, another reboot is necessary. I have not found a permanent workaround.

I called TW today and they offered to replace the box, but that's not the problem unless they can tell me that there is a hardware fix in the newer box.

I was really not happy that they had a field tech call me. All he could do was to replace the box. And he said, if that doesn't fix it, your TV is broken. He did give me his supervisor's phone number and I will call tomorrow. In the meantime, I just had to reboot again.

Yes, rebooting fixes it, but the next time the TV is power off and back on, another reboot is necessary. I have not found a permanent workaround.

I would let Time Warner come out and give you a new box. I have had no problem with my 8300 and the HDMI connection. My TV has been turned on and off a few times since yesterday and I havent had to reboot the box.

Yes, rebooting fixes it, but the next time the TV is power off and back on, another reboot is necessary. I have not found a permanent workaround.

I called TW today and they offered to replace the box, but that's not the problem unless they can tell me that there is a hardware fix in the newer box.

I was really not happy that they had a field tech call me. All he could do was to replace the box. And he said, if that doesn't fix it, your TV is broken. He did give me his supervisor's phone number and I will call tomorrow. In the meantime, I just had to reboot again.

When ever you trouble shoot a problem you need to eliminate as many points of failure as possible. Are you trying to use HDMI and Component at the same time?
If HDMI is not negotiating right, make sure it is the only one doing the negotiating (unhook all the other cables). Also unhooking the HDMI and rehooking it up from the 8300HD may produce different results from doing the same from the TV.

To my knowledge, HDMI is the only connection type that has HDCP; ergo it is the only connection type that performs a handshake and negotiation.

Has anybody been able to fix the problem of large black areas in the middle of the screen when switching to the SA8300HD. I have two of these units and when I switch between them I get these large black areas (one being L shaped). This does not always happen but does 90% of the time. Forcing a screen change in any manner (channel, List, Guide,) will clear the problem. It almost looks like it is an area mask for some of the displays the 8300 puts on the screen

Any thoughts ?

(Passport Echo 1.8.112)

To my knowledge, HDMI is the only connection type that has HDCP; ergo it is the only connection type that performs a handshake and negotiation.

I believe DVI has HDCP as well.

I believe DVI has HDCP as well.
That's true of all but the earliest DVI-equipped displays. And, of course, computer displays do not yet have HDCP.

Has anybody been able to fix the problem of large black areas in the middle of the screen when switching to the SA8300HD. Yes, use component instead of DVI or HDMI. Another reason why my local TW doesn't support using DVI or HDMI. In general, it works, but there are little glitches like this and they offer little to no help.

Eric,
I consider DVI and HDMI the same breed of cat. HDMI has many more capabilities than DVI. To convert HDMI (video only) to DVI is really just a connector change.

Pepar,

I realize that, but I really want the digital stream.

To my knowledge, HDMI is the only connection type that has HDCP; ergo it is the only connection type that performs a handshake and negotiation.

True that Component doesn't handshake but some equiptment reacts differently when more than one output connection is attached. Some infact won't send a signal to the rest after it senses a connection on another. Sensing a connection might not be called handshaking but none the less eliminating uneeded connections can only help.

True that Component doesn't handshake but some equiptment reacts differently when more than one output connection is attached. Some infact won't send a signal to the rest after it senses a connection on another. Sensing a connection might not be called handshaking but none the less eliminating uneeded connections can only help.
yep, once the component is plugged into my 8300, the hdmi stops working until it is rebooted. cant have to connections.

Yes, use component instead of DVI or HDMI. Another reason why my local TW doesn't support using DVI or HDMI. In general, it works, but there are little glitches like this and they offer little to no help.

I sure hope the reason your TWC doesn't offer new technology is because they are too lazy to work through any glitches. I know TWC sucks at being a leader at nice TIVO like guides such as the SATs have but being scared to implement the defacto digital connections because there might be glitches is just sorry.

Other than "Theory" and the "We All Want HDMI Becuase Its Digital" (don't get me wrong I am right on those two) Has anyone done a PQ Quality comparison between the component and HDMI .... asuming both are working ok?

Has anyone done a PQ Quality comparison between the component and HDMI .... asuming both are working ok?
Yes, I have spent many hours doing just that.

HDMI gives a more accurate picture. images are slightly sharper and more crisp and clear with hdmi. with that said, component can give the impression of better color because the colors are a slight bit exagerated. to some people, this looks better. if you want the most accurate picture HDMI will give you that.

you can compare it to speakers. alot of people dont like the sound of a very accurate speaker, they prefer a softer sound.

it really comes down to which you like better. i prefer the most accurate picture and sound i can get.

Yes, I have spent many hours doing just that.

HDMI gives a more accurate picture. images are slightly sharper and more crisp and clear with hdmi. with that said, component can give the impression of better color because the colors are a slight bit exagerated. to some people, this looks better. if you want the most accurate picture HDMI will give you that.

you can compare it to speakers. alot of people dont like the sound of a very accurate speaker, they prefer a softer sound.

it really comes down to which you like better. i prefer the most accurate picture and sound i can get.
That's been my observation as well. As good as 1080i/720p is over component, DVI/HDMI is that much better. Better black level and detail in darker areas, too. In audio, I'd refer to it as one (or two) more curtain(s) removed from between you and the sound.

I sure hope the reason your TWC doesn't offer new technology is because they are too lazy to work through any glitches. My local TWC doesn't design or build the 8300 boxes nor do they write the Passport software. They also play it safe in regards to software releases and move somewhat slowly. If v1.8.112 works well other than the black-L problem whereas a newer version of software fixes the black-L problem but introduces new problems, I'll keep 1.8.112. I have to admit, my service, both cable tv and internet, are VERY reliable. If that's because they stay a step or two or more behind others, so be it.

Ask the guys from San Diego about what happened when their division rolled out 2.5.xx version of Passport. Ask them if they'd have stuck with 1.8.xx if they had the option (or could roll-back to it).

Yes, I have spent many hours doing just that.

HDMI gives a more accurate picture. images are slightly sharper and more crisp and clear with hdmi. with that said, component can give the impression of better color because the colors are a slight bit exagerated. to some people, this looks better. if you want the most accurate picture HDMI will give you that.

you can compare it to speakers. alot of people dont like the sound of a very accurate speaker, they prefer a softer sound.

it really comes down to which you like better. i prefer the most accurate picture and sound i can get.

Thanks, thats what I thought... I have an issue that going to component from the SA83000 would have solved.... but I really don't want to do that... and your info helps confirm that... BTW my picture via HDMI is stunning... I like sharp!....guess I am going to need to work on the issue from another angle...

I have a non-HDCP compliant DVD player and the Panel does not do a good job switching between a HDCP Compliant HDMI conection and a Non-Compliant DVI->HDMI Connection... it doesn't automatically re-enable HDCP either that or the SA83000 gets lost.

Other than "Theory" and the "We All Want HDMI Becuase Its Digital" (don't get me wrong I am right on those two) Has anyone done a PQ Quality comparison between the component and HDMI .... asuming both are working ok?


I had done a comparison between Component and HDMI with an SA8300HD DVR a few months back. The HDMI was producing something like 850 lines of resolution where the component cables were at something like 700 lines. I just got the latest SA8300 software update the other day. I was having the HDMI static problem but I just changed the channels about 4 times and it works now. The best part is that the picture is WAAAAAAAAAAAY sharper than it was before. I don’t know what they did to change it but it looks great. I will record the HDNET test patterns again. I expect that I will be getting closer to 1000 lines now. It turned my Sony GWIV TV from what I used to expect from 788p to something that is a whole lot closer to the new SXRD sets. My best connection now is HDMI from my Cable box. It used to be straight Over the AIR.

My local TWC doesn't design or build the 8300 boxes nor do they write the Passport software. They also play it safe in regards to software releases and move somewhat slowly. If v1.8.112 works well other than the black-L problem whereas a newer version of software fixes the black-L problem but introduces new problems, I'll keep 1.8.112. I have to admit, my service, both cable tv and internet, are VERY reliable. If that's because they stay a step or two or more behind others, so be it.

Ask the guys from San Diego about what happened when their division rolled out 2.5.xx version of Passport. Ask them if they'd have stuck with 1.8.xx if they had the option (or could roll-back to it).

I too, like everyone else likes stability but I don't want to run Windows 95 and drive a 69 VW Bug to accomplish that. I don't think DVI is enabled on the boxes here in NC but the HDMI is. TWC doesn't design or program the boxes they use but the do make demands on those that do. If TWC wanted an ethernet port on the boxes they use SA would put one on. If TWC wanted to have a Guide that we could all be proud of then Aptiv would make it so. And believe me after an all night "code session" they don't push it out the next day. There may be bugs to report but it's not like the code doesn't go thru a 10 point inspection before it is then beta tested and not on the general public.

Right now DISH and TIVO for sure maybe DirecTv can record any show that has a particular actor or keyword in it. They can sort recordings by Date or Name. They have 2 weeks or more of program data. You can hide Porn listings or any other channels from the guide so your kids don't run across "Young Bung".

Maybe we should have stayed on Rotary Dial cable boxes they sure were stable.

The best part is that the picture is WAAAAAAAAAAAY sharper than it was before. I don’t know what they did to change it but it looks great.
I didnt want to say anything because I thought I was just imagining things, but I too have noticed that the PQ is even better then before.

Ask the guys from San Diego about what happened when their division rolled out 2.5.xx version of Passport. Ask them if they'd have stuck with 1.8.xx if they had the option (or could roll-back to it).They rolled out 2.5.022 at the end of September and it was a nightmare! Some bugs were eliminated in .027 and .039 was quite stable. We're at .041 right now and I wouldn't go back, but then I'm still using my original SA8000HD, which was running 1.5.159 when they made the switch and I gained incremental title/keyword search. It has been a bumpy road, though.

The biggest pitfall for me was the increased trick-play buffer size, which reduced recording capacity by between 1 hour 30 minutes (TNT HD, ESPN HD, HDNet) and 2 hours 43 minutes (Fox HD) of HD programming; it's 8 hours or more of SD digital cable. I got over it. The SA8300HD folks already had the mammoth buffers in 1.8.xxx, so they lost no capacity when we switched.

Right now DISH and TIVO for sure maybe DirecTv can record any show that has a particular actor or keyword in it. They can sort recordings by Date or Name. They have 2 weeks or more of program data. You can hide Porn listings or any other channels from the guide so your kids don't run across "Young Bung". And personally I'd rather Aptiv work on features similar to those. Then again, user-interface stuff, i.e. the program guide, is surely handled by a different group of engineers. That said, name-based recording, what Dish calls it, not sure what TiVo calls it, isn't high on *my* list, at least the "search by actor name" type functionality.

You can hide show titles today, by the way. It's not obvious but under "More Settings", I believe it's simply "Block title" or something vague. I've no idea what it uses to determine what to hide though as it will hide show titles on Oxygen, for example. All of the adult PPV and regular adult channels have titles blocked all the time though.

Ok guys, I think I have found a simple fix for those of you getting the "your tv does not support HDCP" message after the upgrade.

For some reason, with the new upgrade, these boxes seem to be rebooting each night. Alot of people have noticed that because they would leave there boxes on and then get up the next morning and the box would be off.

This reboot each night seems to be screwing up the boxes HDMI "handshake" with your TV.

In order to fix this problem, or atleast this is how I was able to fix mine. When you get up in the morning or whenever you turn your TV and STB for the first time each day after the reboot each night, make sure to turn your STB on first while your TV is still off. Wait for you STB to display the little HDTV logo and 1080i or whatever you have your box set to. Once this is displayed on your STB then turn you TV on. Everything should work fine.

In my experiance with playing around with this thing after the upgrade, I have found that if I turn the TV on first, my STB wont display the 1080i or HDTV in the little display.

Hope this helps you guys having problems.

Interesting, but that's the exact opposite of how I avoid the message. I am still on v1.8.112 and I also turn my box "off" when not using it. Otherwise, if I turn my TV on first then the set-top, I do NOT see the message.

Interesting, but that's the exact opposite of how I avoid the message. I am still on v1.8.112 and I also turn my box "off" when not using it. Otherwise, if I turn my TV on first then the set-top, I do NOT see the message.
thats how I have always done it also until this latest upgrade here in raleigh. if i do that now, i get the HDCP message. i am all for upgrades but why cant they fix these bugs before they launch the damn thing.

My local TWC doesn't design or build the 8300 boxes nor do they write the Passport software. They also play it safe in regards to software releases and move somewhat slowly. If v1.8.112 works well other than the black-L problem whereas a newer version of software fixes the black-L problem but introduces new problems, I'll keep 1.8.112. I have to admit, my service, both cable tv and internet, are VERY reliable. If that's because they stay a step or two or more behind others, so be it.

Ask the guys from San Diego about what happened when their division rolled out 2.5.xx version of Passport. Ask them if they'd have stuck with 1.8.xx if they had the option (or could roll-back to it).
The ONLY truly useful improvement was the ability to set the Digital Audio (Coax/Optical) output independent
of the HDTV negotiated HDMI setting (usually Stereo).
Which only affected users who connected HDMI to a Stereo only HDTV (not me, I use DVI).

Unfortunately, my SA8300HD infrequently reverts to Stereo mode when Alert Box rings the "DING" sound and forgets to restore DD5.1 setting. I like to use the new REMINDER feature (like the HD-STB's), so I have to enter SETTINGS/MORE SETTINGS menu every other day or so to restore DD5.1 setting.

Before upgrades, turning my HDTV ON/OFF would cause the HD-DVR to go ON-LINE/OFF-LINE.
After early upgrade, going OFF-LINE would result in HD-DVR endlessly clicking internal relays until it eventually rebooted.
The last upgrade "fixed" this problem by completely eliminating the ON/OFF control.

I haven't had any HDCP negotiation problems with my Hitachi PDP until the last several weeks...now it requires a channel change nearly every time to view a channel if I power up the HDTV first.....so I try to power up HD-DVR first.
This is a new problem that started long after the last software upgrade.

I would be very happy to revert back to the old release--all of these "new" releases have been plagued with HD-DVR lockups.
I still have to get up and unplug the power cable about every other day to clear the lockup with a cold boot,
despite TWC-SD saying they "fixed" the probllem....

================================================
Today, TWC-SD nearly finished activating the remaining Digital Simulcast channels (a couple more to go) and presumably activated the new Family Choice low cost digital tier.

So I would expect an upgrade from 2.5.041 might be on their TO-DO list any day now....

I would be very happy to revert back to the old release--all of these "new" releases have been plagued with HD-DVR lockups.
I still have to get up and unplug the power cable about every other day to clear the lockup with a cold boot,
despite TWC-SD saying they "fixed" the probllem....Huh. I don't see these lock-ups on the 8000HD and haven't heard any complaints about such on hdtv.forsandiego.com in recent month. It could be that many people are seeing frequent lock-ups but have just learned to live with them. (I get this sort of start-stop "video stutter" thing after fast-forwarding sometimes, but it's easily fixed by rewinding a little or pressing the REPLAY button). But then, not everyone ever sees the same set of problems.

One thing that some people appreciate is that, when you put the DVR in the OFF (Standby) state, it actually spins down the HDD.

One thing that some people appreciate is that, when you put the DVR in the OFF (Standby) state, it actually spins down the HDD.
I have put my ear to my 8300HD minutes after turning it off and it was still spinning. I have put my ear to my 8300HD after it had been turned off for 8 hours and it was still spinning. It was not recording, nor had it been recording in either instance.

I have not done it since the upgrade last week to 2.5.043, but I will over the weekend.

I am a strong believer in a total digital path. My system has one from the cable head end right to my display with no intermediate conversions to analog. My cable company provides a digital signal on the cable, the SA8300 puts out whatever resolution it receives with no scaling, the Scaler (DVDO VP300) rescales what it gets on the HDMI cable from the SA8300 to the native resolution of my display (1280x720p DLP) and achieves a 1:1 pixel mapping with the display on a DVI connection. The picture is very sharp, clear and bright. No judder, or conversion artifacts.

The only video issue is the way the HDMI handshake is handled between the scaler which has 4 HDMI inputs and the HDMI sources. The SA8300s do not react well to what is going on when inputs are switched by the scaler. I have suggested to the Scaler people that they "fib" to the sources and maintain them in an always connected state as far as HDCP compliance is concerned and constantly provide the proper handshake; ASSUMING of course that the display is HDCP compliant. With enough switching between 2 SA8300's I have even been able to cause one or the other to reboot. Needless to say there are also the black mask areas.

There is an audio issue with the SA8300. According to the manual you choose HDMI audio out (as opposed to Dolby Digital) when you want the audio outputs to be compliant with what the HDMI receiver can handle. I assume (since it does not explicitly state so) This would be the case when you are running a separate audio processor. I have gotten into states where the audio is dead (required DVR reboot to clear up) and right now I have them set to HDMI audio since if I set them (the DVRs) to DD output I do not get DD 5.1, just 2.0.

I also have a third SA8300 hooked directly to a Pioneer Plasma over HDMI/DVI with Stereo audio. There are no issues with the SA8300 in that configuration.

All the SA8300's are running Passport Echo 1.8.112

I blame neither the DVR mfg or the Scaler mfg, but rather the HDMI group for not providing a better specification and an interoperability certification process.

I blame neither the DVR mfg or the Scaler mfg, but rather the HDMI group for not providing a better specification and an interoperability certification process.
Apparently, HDMI licensees are on the a la carte program. There is a "spec", but some things are optional. Making interoperability optional as well. Two snaps down for the HDMI Group. :p

I blame neither the DVR mfg or the Scaler mfg, but rather the HDMI group for not providing a better specification and an interoperability certification process.
Careful, It is not the HDMI group that is responsible for the HDCP spec. And it is HDCP that is causing the problem.

The following quotes are from a HDMI organization white paper:
HDMI and HDCP are two distinctly separate standards, owned by separate governing entities.and
On the other hand, Digital Content Protection LLC developed the HDCP standard, and any implementation of HDCP requires license from this organization (http://www.digital-cp.com/).
The complete paper is here:
http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/Final.CompotechArticle.pdf

now it requires a channel change nearly every time to view a channel if I power up the HDTV first.....so I try to power up HD-DVR first.
I was just checking in to say that I've found an easier workaround for the 2.5.048 bug that affects my HDMI connection .. I can change channels and regain a picture.

Careful, It is not the HDMI group that is responsible for the HDCP spec. And it is HDCP that is causing the problem.

The following quotes are from a HDMI organization white paper:
and

The complete paper is here:
http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/Final.CompotechArticle.pdf
What we seem to have is a never-ending loop of finger-pointing. If I use cheap gas or oil in my car and damage the engine, the car maker will probably not honor the warrenty. The HDMI group has included HDCP in its spec and they should be moving heaven and earth to get HDCP to play nice with HDMI-licensed equipment. And while they're at it, they should be communicating to the market the problems and what they're doing to solve the problems. From my vantage point, they get a failing grade on that.

And I'm not so sure on it being an HDCP problem. I quote an Audioholics sticky apparently put up - or updated - today: "When pursuing the topic with Yamaha Electronics' product engineers, they reported that this is a known issue and is on the Cable box end (Denon's engineers also concurred):

This Problem lays with the Cable box. It is not an HDCP issue. It has to do with HDMI 1.0 compliance. Neither Scientific Atlanta or Motorola boxes were originally designed to recognize a "REPEATER" (a repeater is a switching device in the HDMI format). Among other things it is able to pick off the audio bitstream from the HDMI signal. [These receivers are] much more than just a switch!

Conversations with S/A revealed that they have an upgrade algorithm that is available to local cable companies. However, the typical cable company takes 60 to 90 days [more like 6 months in our experience - Admin] to issue a firmware update blasts to their customers.

Irregardless, I still see looping finger-pointing. Everyone involved gets a failing grade.

Careful! Careful? They can all wipe their a22e2 with their white papers. This is unforgivable.

Thanks for tossing a big fat one right down the middle of the plate. :)

Dave,

I do not have to be careful, there is more than enough paint for everyone involved to get some brushed on them. I was trying to be fair. The problem is multifaceted. I just want it to work and to work well. I read the HDMI spec, and will get to the HDCP spec some time soon. They both (HDMI and HDCP controlling organizations) need to handle the interoperability issue. It is their problem first and foremost.

Barry, I guess you and pepar just want to blame (& flame), and just don't want to get your facts straight.

Also from the quoted HDMI article:HDCP is not a strict requirement of the HDMI standard, though all HDMI implementations on the market feature HDCP.

The exact same "handshaking" problem is there on sets with DVI inputs (as well as with 8000HD boxes with DVI out.

I agree that the standards (and test cases included in the standards) should have been more thorough - but let's get the right responsible body, OK?

Barry, I guess you and pepar just want to blame (& flame), and just don't want to get your facts straight.

Also from the quoted HDMI article:

The exact same "handshaking" problem is there on sets with DVI inputs (as well as with 8000HD boxes with DVI out.

I agree that the standards (and test cases included in the standards) should have been more thorough - but let's get the right responsible body, OK?
Ya just keep makin' my point:

HDCP is not a strict requirement of the HDMI standard, though all HDMI implementations on the market feature HDCP."

Not a "strict requirement, though all HDMI implementations on the market feature HDCP." What's that mean? Sounds pretty wobbly and weasel-like to me. Which org? Golly gosh, it's HDMI. This is nowhere near flaming. Like Harry Truman said "I don't give 'em he77. I just tell the truth and they think it's he77."

I have put my ear to my 8300HD minutes after turning it off and it was still spinning. I have put my ear to my 8300HD after it had been turned off for 8 hours and it was still spinning. It was not recording, nor had it been recording in either instance.

I have not done it since the upgrade last week to 2.5.043, but I will over the weekend.We had some weirdness here where it stopped doing it for at least a week or two, as noticed by multiple people at hdtv.forsandiego.com. Then it started doing it again. Sometimes, if the DVR has been on for a long time (months), it'll do some sort of maintenance operation before spinning down (very heavy accesses for about a minute, followed by very brief accesses at regular intervals, about 8-10 seconds apart for over an hour).

With all of the hassles regarding these DVRs –it looks like the wheels are in motion to get rid of them … This was posted by jcc in the TWCNY thread.

http://news.com.com/Comcast,+Time+Warner+back+Cablevision+DVR+plan/2100-1033_3-6056149.html?tag=nefd.top

With all of the hassles regarding these DVRs –it looks like the wheels are in motion to get rid of them … This was posted by jcc in the TWCNY thread.

http://news.com.com/Comcast,+Time+Warner+back+Cablevision+DVR+plan/2100-1033_3-6056149.html?tag=nefd.top
Yet another idea that they've hit upon to benefit themselves.

With all of the hassles regarding these DVRs –it looks like the wheels are in motion to get rid of them … This was posted by jcc in the TWCNY thread.

http://news.com.com/Comcast,+Time+Warner+back+Cablevision+DVR+plan/2100-1033_3-6056149.html?tag=nefd.top
Recall that cable companies are required to cease deployment of "integrated set top boxes" by July 2007:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf
An "integrated" STB (and presumably also DVR) is one that includes the encryption module.
The customer will be expected to provide their own CableCard-II equipped HDTV, HTPC or DVR....or rent one from the cable company.

By using a Central Server, the cable companies can retain their lucrative "DVR" revenue streams from (future) CableCard-II equipped customers.
Sounds more and more like IPTV....

Recall that cable companies are required to cease deployment of "integrated set top boxes" by July 2007:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf
An "integrated" STB (and presumably also DVR) is one that includes the encryption module.
The customer will be expected to provide their own CableCard-II equipped HDTV, HTPC or DVR....or rent one from the cable company.

By using a Central Server, the cable companies can retain their lucrative "DVR" revenue streams from (future) CableCard-II equipped customers.
Sounds more and more like IPTV....alot has happened since that report. STB's will be around for along time.

As I said in another forum, I don't expect "Central Server DVR" to be any more responsive or satisfying to use than Video On Demand, and if they implement it, they'll lose my STB lease and DVR fee, since I'll buy TiVo Series 3 when it become available.

With the recent upgrade here in Raleigh I experienced the "Snow" white out when changing over from Component to HDMI, which didn't occur (I think) before the upgrade. I finally had a chance to mess with this and think its solved and understood. If you've figured this out, then ignore this post. If not, then this may help you, too.

I only experience the problem when using "Dolby Digital" for Audio Out (Settings, A, etc.) and then (and only then) changing input source (on my Sony 55XS...HDTV) from HDMI to Component and then back to HDMI. My "understanding" is that this is logical since I've told the SA8300 to output DD 5.1, so that when I try going back to HDMI it fails the handshake. That causes no audio AND no picture (Snow).

So the impact (work around) for watching either source with DD 5.1 is:
1. HDMI w/DD 5.1 requires change of Audio Out to "Dolby Digital"
2. Component w/DD5.1 works with Audio Out set to HDMI or Dolby Digital
3. Before changing video source from HDMI to Component, ALWAYS set SA8300 to Audio Out of HDMI (or else you you'll get Snow when trying to get back to HDMI from Component).

In all cases my SA8300 has (Digital) Audio connected to my Denon Receiver (to verify the DD 5.1). I leave the Denon off (mostly) when watching, and HDMI handles the Audio to the Sony's speakers. Its only when I want DD 5.1 (and a choice between Component or HDMI) that the above is needed.

Net Result: I'm leaning more and more to HDMI only, and using the SA8300 settings to shift between HDMI and Dolby Digital as needed. I can turn either off, and the PQ is as good as Component (I'm not sure HDMI is better, yet). All I have to do is NOT change the Audio Out to Dolby Digital from HDMI on the SA8300 when using Component (but only when I want DD 5.1 with HDMI).

If your results differ, I'd be curious in knowing how.

With the recent upgrade here in Raleigh I experienced the "Snow" white out when changing over from Component to HDMI

My post-2.5.048 HDMI snow issue isn't related to use of component. I don't have anything but the HDMI cable connected for video, and fiber audio out to my Denon receiver. My audio setting is DD and I always use audio through the receiver.

I can get beyond the snow upon power-up if I change the channel, but my wife complained this cleared the buffer. So, she came up with the workaround of using swap instead, which also does the trick.

It appears that there is some sort of initialization or format negotiation different from the initial HDMI handshake that the 2.5.048 only does when changing channel, but previous version did also at power-up.

IamtheWolf .. I'd be interested in getting your contact info so I can tell Time Warner Raleigh that, no, I am not the only one experiencing this (they just say I have a defective 8300HD).

I have the newly upgraded Passport software (2.5.048) so I hooked up an external SATA drive just to test it out and it seems to work. However, now I'm having a strange problem. When I have the external drive connected, it seems to disable live TV buffering. I can no long rewind live TV. I can pause it, but when I resume playback, the box thinks that it's live again from that point and I still can't rewind or FF. If you hit the jump-back button, it goes all the way back to when you first changed the channel, but again doesn't let you FF or rewind. Regular recordings work fine.

The strange thing is that this only happens when the external drive it plugged in, otherwise the buffering functions properly. I've also noticed that the box uses the external SATA first over it's own internal HDD, which is kind of annoying.

Anyone else have this buffering problem????

I have the newly upgraded Passport software (2.5.048) so I hooked up an external SATA drive just to test it out and it seems to work. However, now I'm having a strange problem. When I have the external drive connected, it seems to disable live TV buffering. I can no long rewind live TV. I can pause it, but when I resume playback, the box thinks that it's live again from that point and I still can't rewind or FF. If you hit the jump-back button, it goes all the way back to when you first changed the channel, but again doesn't let you FF or rewind. Regular recordings work fine.

The strange thing is that this only happens when the external drive it plugged in, otherwise the buffering functions properly. I've also noticed that the box uses the external SATA first over it's own internal HDD, which is kind of annoying.

Anyone else have this buffering problem????
According to my cableco's tech director, Aptiv is six weeks - five now - away from having SATA support ready. And then my cableco will begin testing it. My theory is that enabling the port is a multi-part process and that 2.5.048, while seemingly offering SATA support in actuality, does not. There is still either a missing piece required to fully enable it in 2.5.048, or 048 has only part of the code and there is another rev coming where support is complete. These codes are worked on constantly and no feature's implementation is ever done in just one rev, but rather over many. I was told that the reason my cableco upgraded us to 2.5.043 is that SA began shipping a new HARDWARE rev. 043 has an MR-DVR page, but requires more software/firmware/hardware (?) and the cableco is not currently supporting it. Perhaps the cablecos with 048 only upped versions for the same reason mine did and simply chose a slightly later code rev.

According to my cableco's tech director, Aptiv is six weeks - five now - away from having SATA support ready. And then my cableco will begin testing it. My theory is that enabling the port is a multi-part process and that 2.5.048, while seemingly offering SATA support in actuality, does not. There is still either a missing piece required to fully enable it in 2.5.048, or 048 has only part of the code and there is another rev coming where support is complete. These codes are worked on constantly and no feature's implementation is ever done in just one rev, but rather over many. I was told that the reason my cableco upgraded us to 2.5.043 is that SA began shipping a new HARDWARE rev. 043 has an MR-DVR page, but requires more software/firmware/hardware (?) and the cableco is not currently supporting it. Perhaps the cablecos with 048 only upped versions for the same reason mine did and simply chose a slightly later code rev.

It wouldn't be the first time software was released that wasn't fully functional. It works fairly well except for the lack of live TV buffering. I guess I'll have to wait for another software revision which will probably take another six months.

My post-2.5.048 HDMI snow issue isn't related to use of component. I don't have anything but the HDMI cable connected for video, and fiber audio out to my Denon receiver. My audio setting is DD and I always use audio through the receiver.

IamtheWolf .. I'd be interested in getting your contact info so I can tell Time Warner Raleigh that, no, I am not the only one experiencing this (they just say I have a defective 8300HD).

Try this: Before you turn your TV off, on the STB switch the Digital Audio Out to HDMI from Dolby Digital. Normally you wouldn't use that setting since it only produces 2 channel instead of DD 5.1. I'd be curious if that eliminates the "snow" problem since the STB is now expecting the handshake.

I'll drop you a note with my contact info.

It wouldn't be the first time software was released that wasn't fully functional. It works fairly well except for the lack of live TV buffering. I guess I'll have to wait for another software revision which will probably take another six months.
By my theory, SATA support has not been "released." There is a portion of the necessary code in 048, but not the whole enchilada. There are further code revs in-house at Aptiv that are developing as they test the SATA. Versions 043 & 048 were blasted for compatibility with the new 830HD hardware rev SA is shipping and are perhaps baseline for that hardware.

It wouldn't be the first time software was released that wasn't fully functional. It works fairly well except for the lack of live TV buffering. I guess I'll have to wait for another software revision which will probably take another six months.
Said before and will be said again: Aptiv having SATA support available is no guarantee that any given SO will deploy it.

If that's what's happening, is a contemptible engineering practice. I've worked on firmware for quite a few consumer products, and there's absolutely no need to ship unfinished features in firmware releases--it's like intentionally leaving potholes in a newly constructed road. It's easy enough to conditionalize these so that they just don't get built in unless you set it up that way.

The managers of the engineering teams responsible for this should be severely beaten about the heads and shoulders :mad:.

This is a hideous engineer practice. I've worked on firmware for quite a few consumer products, and there's absolutely no need to ship unfinished features in firmware releases--it's like intentionally leaving potholes in a newly constructed road. It's easy enough to conditionalize these so that they just don't get built in unless you set it up that way.

The managers of the engineering teams responsible for this should be severely beaten about the heads and shoulders :mad:.
Not sure what "hideous practice" you are complaining about. You must realize that there are lots of environmental variables in different cable systems. Hence, it is impossible to thoroughly test in the engineering environment.

Now if the specific practice you complaining about is pepar's suggestion that what we are seeing is a partially completed implementation: I would suggest that as the cableco has made no positive statement that this feature (ext HD support) exists that there are simply no expectations that it should work, let alone work properly. Simply because a bunch of "bleeding edge" enthusiasts have tried it, prior to any announcement (by the cableco) that the capability exists is no reflection on the developers (or the cableco that deployed it). There can be many VALID reasons for including partially functioning "stubs", etc - but if there are no reasonable expectations that people will try this I can not see why they are so negligent here.

Not sure what "hideous practice" you are complaining about. You must realize that there are lots of environmental variables in different cable systems. Hence, it is impossible to thoroughly test in the engineering environment.I have no idea what you mean by that last statement and what it has to do with shipping partial implementations in releases to customers.
Now if the specific practice you complaining about is pepar's suggestion that what we are seeing is a partially completed implementation: I would suggest that as the cableco has made no positive statement that this feature (ext HD support) exists that there are simply no expectations that it should work, let alone work properly. Simply because a bunch of "bleeding edge" enthusiasts have tried it, prior to any announcement (by the cableco) that the capability exists is no reflection on the developers (or the cableco that deployed it). There can be many VALID reasons for including partially functioning "stubs", etc - but if there are no reasonable expectations that people will try this I can not see why they are so negligent here.Name ONE "valid" reason to to ship "partially functioning stubs, etc." This is a major feature that, from these reports, very nearly works--not a "stub". The reasonable expectation that people might try this is that the SATA expansion HDD capability is mentioned in Scientific Atlanta's spec sheet for the SA8300HD. Some end-users are bound to see this spec-sheet. When they try it, it should simply fail, period, not almost work, breaking other existing features.

I have no idea what you mean by that last statement and what it has to do with shipping partial implementations in releases to customers.
Name ONE "valid" reason to to ship "partially functioning stubs, etc." This is a major feature that, from these reports, very nearly works--not a "stub". The reasonable expectation that people might try this is that the SATA expansion HDD capability is mentioned in Scientific Atlanta's spec sheet for the SA8300HD. Some end-users are bound to see this spec-sheet. When they try it, it should simply fail, period, not almost work, breaking other existing features.
Wow. "Partial implementation" implies a concious decision to put it out there incomplete, when what I suggested it that there are some lines of code in there that will eventually be part of SATA support, period. How do we know that this funky functionality being observed wasn't present before the latest upgrade? And who beyond us bleeding edge geeks even have a clue about that funny looking rectangular hole on the back of the box, much less know what to connect and then have the cojones to actually do it? I am certainly not defending Aptiv, SA or TW, but any expectations/assumptions we have at this time are strictly self-generated.

There are a tons of "bleeding-edge geeks" out there and we know that the functionality is no present in any version up to 2.5.041 because I've read reports from several people who've tried it. Among "bleeding-edge geeks" support for this feature is fairly anxiously awaited. We certainly know that the diag page for it has not been present in any version--it doesn't show up in 2.5.043 does it?

On the other hand, I swear that there was a guy who some months back declared that he had a partially functioning SATA port in a 1.8.xxx release. He describe exactly the same "trick-play buffer doesn't work when the drive is plugged in" that KzY did. So it may be that it was present in some previous version of Passport Echo and might have been present in quite a few releases, but that recognition of a plugged in drive was has been disabled. (I've tried searching the two threads for that guy's posts, but I can't find them. Oh, well).

I'm not criticizing Aptiv/Pioneer for the fact that it doesn't work--there's absolutely no reason that I can think of for even a working driver for the SATA connection to be in a release that will get pushed to end-users. This is a complex feature--I'm certain that no small amount of work went into making it work as well as it has for those who have seen it work. I just can't imagine a reason to include the partial implementation in any distributed release.

I just checked, 2.5.048 here in Orange, CA.

Nuts to read that the SATA only sort of works, but maybe that will change.

When you first hook up a eSata drive, doesn't the box "load balance" so everything new is going to the new drive until it has (more stored on it, or less free space? since I would use 160 internal and 300 external). Guessing we don't know what will happen once someone gets back to the internal drive.

************************************* HDCP

I played annoy the salesperson yesterday, Micro Center, Best Buy (Magnolia), and Circuit City, none of them had a clue what HDCP even was, but Magnolia did have the Toshiba player running its HD/DVD demo. Not good, but does have me itching for HD about 65", but no place close to deciding what (Sony XRD was sweet, and chances are I don't really need two kidneys).

On the other hand, I swear that there was a guy who some months back declared that he had a partially functioning SATA port in a 1.8.xxx release. He describe exactly the same "trick-play buffer doesn't work when the drive is plugged in" that KzY did. So it may be that it was present in some previous version of Passport Echo and might have been present in quite a few releases, but that recognition of a plugged in drive was has been disabled. (I've tried searching the two threads for that guy's posts, but I can't find them. Oh, well).It was galen @ #2455 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6844455&&#post6844455) here and @ #1132 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6844859&&#post6844859) in the External SATA thread, which he updated with pictures @ #1626 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7405069&&#post7405069). The pictures tickled my OCD, so I went playing around with Excel... and put it in an attachment to my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7417024&&#post7417024) on the other thread. The attachment is a worksheet saved as an ".htm" file so I could rename it and post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55175) it as text.

Reminder: personnel with propensities for undergarment torsion, please egress to port...


v/r,
C-F

There are a tons of "bleeding-edge geeks" out there and we know that the functionality is no present in any version up to 2.5.041 because I've read reports from several people who've tried it. Among "bleeding-edge geeks" support for this feature is fairly anxiously awaited. We certainly know that the diag page for it has not been present in any version--it doesn't show up in 2.5.043 does it?

On the other hand, I swear that there was a guy who some months back declared that he had a partially functioning SATA port in a 1.8.xxx release. He describe exactly the same "trick-play buffer doesn't work when the drive is plugged in" that KzY did. So it may be that it was present in some previous version of Passport Echo and might have been present in quite a few releases, but that recognition of a plugged in drive was has been disabled. (I've tried searching the two threads for that guy's posts, but I can't find them. Oh, well).

I'm not criticizing Aptiv/Pioneer for the fact that it doesn't work--there's absolutely no reason that I can think of for even a working driver for the SATA connection to be in a release that will get pushed to end-users. This is a complex feature--I'm certain that no small amount of work went into making it work as well as it has for those who have seen it work. I just can't imagine a reason to include the partial implementation in any distributed release.
Stop that now; it has not been implemented. :rolleyes:

You're right, there WAS a guy - Galen, right? - who reported semi-success with an external drive with 1-point-8 - something. That goes along with my theory that, natively, the hardware supports the SATA port and did from the scratch. Anybody who got any level of functionalty did so accidentally because the OS got confused.

And nope, no SATA page in my DIAGs. But just 005 builds later there is. I'd bet 005 builds later there's even more code. I have an MR-DVR page as well, but my cableco isn't presently supporting it. So what?

"Anxiously awaited?" Well, he77 YES!! But it is 100% self-inflicted bordering, in some cases, on obsessively awaited and even delusionally awaited.. You're really looking at this all wrong and your word selection and phrasing is drenched with your incorrect charaterization. There is no "it" to be the "it" in "making it work as well as it has for those who have seen it work." There is no "it" to see; "it" doesn't exist because THEY haven't said it does.

All this MR and SATA buzz got me to look closer at the Settings|More Settings page and I found a setting that I'm sure was not there before. I've not seen anyone post on this and don't know if our 2.5.043 is the only version with it or noit.

Under "Accessories" there is now "Power Manager". There are two settings under that heading. The first is "Settop Power" with two choices; "Power Off Manually" and "Auto Power Off." The second setting under "Power Manager" is - and this reallyreally caught my attention - "Harddrive Power" with settings of "On with Settop" and "Always On."

Could this be related to the upcoming SATA support? Would they give us the option of affecting the internal drive? (Remember, this is a "normal user" - as opposed to bleeding edge geek user - accessible setting.) More like it is for an external drive.

Comments? Anybody ELSE have this setting?

All this MR and SATA buzz got me to look closer at the Settings|More Settings page and I found a setting that I'm sure was not there before. I've not seen anyone post on this and don't know if our 2.5.043 is the only version with it or noit.

Under "Accessories" there is now "Power Manager". There are two settings under that heading. The first is "Settop Power" with two choices; "Power Off Manually" and "Auto Power Off." The second setting under "Power Manager" is - and this reallyreally caught my attention - "Harddrive Power" with settings of "On with Settop" and "Always On."

Could this be related to the upcoming SATA support? Would they give us the option of affecting the internal drive? (Remember, this is a "normal user" - as opposed to bleeding edge geek user - accessible setting.) More like it is for an external drive.

Comments? Anybody ELSE have this setting?

Its not in my 2.5.048

Its not in my 2.5.048
Interesting. A later build w/o some code that was in a slightly earlier one. 043 has an MR-DVR page in DIAG as well. Have that?

Interesting. A later build w/o some code that was in a slightly earlier one. 043 has an MR-DVR page in DIAG as well. Have that?

Yup.... "Welcome to MR-DVR!"

Stop that now; it has not been implemented. :rolleyes:Now you're getting insulting :rolleyes:.

What do you do (or did you do) for a living? It seems unlikely that it's remotely related to computer hardware. I've been a computer software engineer for 30 years and worked almost exclusively on code embedded in devices for 20 of those. I spent 3 years working on firmware in embedded SCSI HDD logic--the boards mounted on the individual drives. In my not-so-humble opinion there is no way that the "hardware" natively supports the spanning of a filesystem across the internal IDE drive and an external SATA one. There is firmware involved here; drivers in the code to handle the SATA interface and non-trivial provisions in the filesystem code to allocate and perform reads and writes on multiple physical volumes. The software handles the drive dynamically, automatically formatting and using the drive when you plug it in, no mean trick in and of itself. Conceivably, there is automatic recognition and incorporation of the external drive into a single logical volume by the underlying PowerTV OS, used by both SARA and Passport, but it seems unlikely, and if that was the case, I wouldn't expect for it to break the trick-play features. I'd expect for it to be as easy for the code to allocate and use trick-play buffers as it would be to allocate space for and read and write stored recordings. From user reports, that works just fine, with all the normal abilities to pause, rewind and fast-forward.

I don't know how you're reading my phrase "partial implementation" as equivalent to "officially released". It's officially released for use "when THEY say it is", but if there's code in a release which lets as much of this feature work as people have reported, then that is a partial implementation. People have observed that they can connect a drive, write recording to it and use those recordings in a normal fashion. In my book, that's 80+ percent of the feature's intended behavior. My original point is that there's no way that this cannot be defeated in the firmware, and that it should be, until it is complete and officially released.

"Stop that now" :mad:??? Who in hell do you think that you are? I'll discuss what I want to on these boards, so long as it as it's related to the forum and thread topic, which this certainly is. You may ignore what I have to say and you may voice a different opinion, but you do not tell me to stop discussing anything (at least until you become a moderator here). Unless you work for Aptiv, my opinion in this is at least as valid as your own.

Interesting. A later build w/o some code that was in a slightly earlier one. Either the cableco can customize the software, i.e. enable or disable settings, which in turn affect the build or this particular setting has issues and was removed in later revs.

Now you're getting insulting :rolleyes:.
I re-read it a few times and did not see where I did anything other than to call you out on referring to anything as a "partial implemtation" as it is an oxymoron. Now perhaps it's semantics, but that's my understanding of the two words. A thing is implemented or it's not. Sort of like "partially pregnant."

Did our cablecos tell us how to access the DIAG? If someone wants to poke around somewhere unintended and attach a peripheral that the lessor of the STB has not told them to attach, that's their risk. But it seems incredulous that that person would then get all huffed up about that peripheral not working the way they expected it to. And for them to get really p1ssy about a pointedly worded post that disagreed with their opinion is just plain silly.

Unless Aptiv (or SARA) is in your resume, resorting to citing it in support of your opinion is . . .

Either the cableco can customize the software, i.e. enable or disable settings, which in turn affect the build or this particular setting has issues and was removed in later revs.
Well, as I found it in user settings, I feel it's fair for me to call them and ask about it. I mean, it's not like it was in the DIAG or anything like that. :rolleyes:

I re-read it a few times and did not see where I did anything other than to call you out on referring to anything as a "partial implemtation" as it is an oxymoron. Now perhaps it's semantics, but that's my understanding of the two words. A thing is implemented or it's not. Sort of like "partially pregnant."I'm sorry. As I said, I work on firmware. It might take months to finish a major feature in a product; until it is finished, it might be in an internal release, with the parts that have been implemented working just fine. That's what I mean by a "partial implementation"; it doesn't completely satisfy the requirements of the specs, but it's there. There's no chance that I'd let it get out to users, whether it was documented or not.

For instance, I wrote a picture caller-ID feature for mobile phones at a company where I worked. As specified, it had to support JPEG, GIF, animated GIF, BMP, PNG and a Qualcomm proprietary multi-media format call "animated ringers". I had to write all of the underlying support for those media types (there were some packaged CODECs available, but I had to write the support to use those to process the files resizing and/or centering them as requested by the caller, and place them in arbitrary spots on the displayed dialog); by itself this involved many hundreds of lines of code). I finished the API routines for JPEGs, static GIFs and PNG files and implemented the ability to associate them with callers in the contact list and to display them on the incoming call dialog; at that point, it went into an internal release and started being formally tested and loaded into the personal phones of scores of employees, who began using it. It might have had bugs, but the engineers using the prototypes would just figure out what they were, write bug-reports against them and continue to use the feature, working around any problems. Had it gone out into a release and someone stumbled upon it, tried to use it and and encountered bugs, they would have just gotten angry at the company who provided it to them, one of my employer's customers. It would have been negligent of us to have made the mistake of including it in a release destined to be distributed to end users.

If the SATA expansion drive feature is not yet released and supported, plugging a working HDD into it should not result in any change in the behavior of the device, whatsoever. I don't care that the end user has no reason to expect for it to work--none of the feature's behavior should be present (i.e., it shouldn't store recording on the drive) until all of the thoroughly tested support for the expansion drive is in the firmware. If some code to implement the feature is in the release for whatever reason, there should be no way for a user to invoke it.

Once a product is close to release, nearly all of the requirements are present and finding and fixing bugs is the urgent job for everyone involved. Some of the bug reports that I've processed have been absolutely ridiculous; things equivalent to "the handset dies when the user bangs on the keypad with his or her fist" (not a real report, but close :)). My initial reaction is "just tell the user not to do this stupid thing", but that won't fly. If the product's code can be prevented from failing when the end user does some specific foolish thing, if they've been told about it, it's incumbent upon the people writing the code to fix it so that the product is proof against that abuse.

What I found insulting about your post was the "stop that now" comment followed by the ":rolleyes:". I found it to be extremely dismissive and disrespectful. Maybe you didn't intend it that way--I don't know. I read it as "I disagree and I'm right, so shut up."

We are the alpha test group, and I am guessing more than a few of us could do better in a long weekend than the current passport software, but we are stuck with what we get and when we get it. No point in biting at each other since we are all over the same barrel.

I'm sorry. As I said, I work on firmware. It might take months to finish a major feature in a product; until it is finished, it might be in an internal release, with the parts that have been implemented working just fine. That's what I mean by a "partial implementation"; it doesn't completely satisfy the requirements of the specs, but it's there. There's no chance that I'd let it get out to users, whether it was documented or not.

For instance, I wrote a picture caller-ID feature for mobile phones at a company where I worked. As specified, it had to support JPEG, GIF, animated GIF, BMP, PNG and a Qualcomm proprietary multi-media format call "animated ringers". I had to write all of the underlying support for those media types (there were some packaged CODECs available, but I had to write the support to use those to process the files resizing and/or centering them as requested by the caller, and place them in arbitrary spots on the displayed dialog); by itself this involved many hundreds of lines of code). I finished the API routines for JPEGs, static GIFs and PNG files and implemented the ability to associate them with callers in the contact list and to display them on the incoming call dialog; at that point, it went into an internal release and started being formally tested and loaded into the personal phones of scores of employees, who began using it. It might have had bugs, but the engineers using the prototypes would just figure out what they were, write bug-reports against them and continue to use the feature, working around any problems. Had it gone out into a release and someone stumbled upon it, tried to use it and and encountered bugs, they would have just gotten angry at the company who provided it to them, one of my employer's customers. It would have been negligent of us to have made the mistake of including it in a release destined to be distributed to end users.

If the SATA expansion drive feature is not yet released and supported, plugging a working HDD into it should not result in any change in the behavior of the device, whatsoever. I don't care that the end user has no reason to expect for it to work--none of the feature's behavior should be present (i.e., it shouldn't store recording on the drive) until all of the thoroughly tested support for the expansion drive is in the firmware. If some code to implement the feature is in the release for whatever reason, there should be no way for a user to invoke it.

Once a product is close to release, nearly all of the requirements are present and finding and fixing bugs is the urgent job for everyone involved. Some of the bug reports that I've processed have been absolutely ridiculous; things equivalent to "the handset dies when the user bangs on the keypad with his or her fist" (not a real report, but close :)). My initial reaction is "just tell the user not to do this stupid thing", but that won't fly. If the product's code can be prevented from failing when the end user does some specific foolish thing, if they've been told about it, it's incumbent upon the people writing the code to fix it so that the product is proof against that abuse.

What I found insulting about your post was the "stop that now" comment followed by the ":rolleyes:". I found it to be extremely dismissive and disrespectful. Maybe you didn't intend it that way--I don't know. I read it as "I disagree and I'm right, so shut up."
My apologies - I intended it to be theatrical, but not disrespectful. Nor my comments on your resume, either. 'Twas all part of putting forth my position and attacking yours. :)

I think we can agree that their - Aptiv - software/firmware is a bit sloppy by the standards that you and other engineers adhere to outside of the cable industry. Perhaps they still view subscribers as totally oblivious of anything beyond the on switch and channel up/down. We - on this thread and other related ones - probably scare the bejesus out of them as now they have to think about unintended - by them - actions on our part. And this shows they've got some more work on that.

I would submit that it perhaps is time for someone to start a Passport external HD thread. Initial post should have links to this thread and to the famous (or ironic as some people maintain) SA 8000HD & 8300HD w/ Passport software (TWC) thread.

I'm a SARA person (with a WORKING ext HD) so I'm not in a good position to do that.

I think it would be a very lonely thread....

My apologies - I intended it to be theatrical, but not disrespectful. Nor my comments on your resume, either. 'Twas all part of putting forth my position and attacking yours. :)Apology accepted--no harm no foul.
I think we can agree that their - Aptiv - software/firmware is a bit sloppy by the standards that you and other engineers adhere to outside of the cable industry.I'm not sure that we can paint all of the engineers in the cable STB industry with the same brush.
Perhaps they still view subscribers as totally oblivious of anything beyond the on switch and channel up/down. We - on this thread and other related ones - probably scare the bejesus out of them as now they have to think about unintended - by them - actions on our part. And this shows they've got some more work on that.Personally I think that it's criminal to experiment on unwitting and probably unwilling cable subscribers. (I don't mind a little beta-testing, but its something that they should solicit volunteers for). It's not that any significant percentage of folks will try to plug an expansion drive in but there are other issues like the obvious-poorly-tested HDMI implementation with all of its many "quirks". If anything, people who work on these things should be more vigilant, since devices like these will get used for more hours continously everyday than almost any other variety of product. Software quality control for the principal processors in automobiles must be extreme; medical appliances and hospital equipment and airplane control systems are no doubt the same way. Of course, nobody's going to die if they're cable STB malfunctions :D.

I would appreciate anyone providing clarification on an issue that has been bugging me. First let me get everyone at the same point by repeating what is in the SA8300HD User guide (Manual):

************************************************************ **************************
..."Important Note regarding the HDMI Interface on the 8300HD DVR

The HDMI interface will automatically configure the audio output for a format supported by the television. Because not all TVs support a Dolby Digital input, the HDMI interface will automatically select a 2-channel stereo audio configuration instead of Dolby Digital. When the output is configured for 2-channel audio, this configuration is carried over to the other digital audio outputs of the 8300HD. This configuration prevents your home theater or Dolby Digital decoder from providing the full Dolby Digital surround sound effect. On the 8300HD, you may override the automatic selection of audio by the HDMI interface by completing the following steps:

[Instructions for using Setup/Advanced to set Dolby Digital as the Audio output format]

Note: If the TV (Audio/video monitor) connected to the 8300HD using HDMI is not Dolby Digital capable, it may not produce audio through its speakers when the Audio: Digital Out setting is set to Dolby Digital. You can either switch the Audio: Digital out setting back to HDMI when you are not using the home theater or Dolby Digital decoder, or you can connect the baseband audio outputs (Out 1 Audio Left and Right) to the TV.

"...

************************************************************ ***************************

In summary, it seems that if you want the Digital output formats to be selected by the TV's capability set the audio output to HDMI. If you want the digital outputs to be what was sent down the cable (Dolby Digital (5.1 and 2.0), PCM, (and maybe someday) DTS) independent of what the TV (downstream HDMI device) can handle set the Audio output to Dolby Digital. If you have no way of processing Digital audio, then set audio output to analog stereo.

Could someone comment on the above or correct my conclusions.

I would appreciate anyone providing clarification on an issue that has been bugging me. First let me get everyone at the same point by repeating what is in the SA8300HD User guide (Manual): That information is from SA's documention from their website, which pertains to boxes using SARA, not Passport. There's NO WAY to know if that information is relevant to Passport-equipped boxes.

I would submit that it perhaps is time for someone to start a Passport external HD thread. Initial post should have links to this thread and to the famous (or ironic as some people maintain) SA 8000HD & 8300HD w/ Passport software (TWC) thread.

I'm a SARA person (with a WORKING ext HD) so I'm not in a good position to do that.
Being a SARA person might make you the most likely to start a Passport/SATA thread when you consider the effect of a horde of Passporters descending on the "8300HD and External SATA - It Works!!" thread. :)

I have a SA 8300 with the video going via HDMI to my Sony SXRD rear projection and the audio going via digital (coaxial) to my Pioneer Elite receiver.

When I turn off the TV when I am listening to a the Music Choice (Bright House - Deland, FL) channel, after a minute or two, I lose the audio from the SA 8300.

Is there a way to listen to the SA 8300 audio successfully while my TV stays off?

thanks,
Rick

I have a SA 8300 with the video going via HDMI to my Sony SXRD rear projection and the audio going via digital (coaxial) to my Pioneer Elite receiver.

When I turn off the TV when I am listening to a the Music Choice (Bright House - Deland, FL) channel, after a minute or two, I lose the audio from the SA 8300.

Is there a way to listen to the SA 8300 audio successfully while my TV stays off?

thanks,
Rick
Other than disconnecting the HDMI, no.

Hall, Thanks for the reply. You are probably correct as some of the settings instructions and pictures do not apply to Passport driven sets. It would be nice if:

(1) SA specified in their manual the software it was applicable for. They do state that all features are not in all models and to ask the cable suppliers, but the model I have is a SA8300HD. It says nothing about SW versions, just the model name. Oh Well.

(2) Pioneer (Aptiv) provided a manual for the passport equipped boxes indicating how to properly set up a box so equipped.

Hall, Thanks for the reply. You are probably correct as some of the settings instructions and pictures do not apply to Passport driven sets. It would be nice if:

(1) SA specified in their manual the software it was applicable for. They do state that all features are not in all models and to ask the cable suppliers, but the model I have is a SA8300HD. It says nothing about SW versions, just the model name. Oh Well.

(2) Pioneer (Aptiv) provided a manual for the passport equipped boxes indicating how to properly set up a box so equipped.
We're fortunate that, unlike the legal profession, they do not speak in Latin in an effort to keep their secrets. :)

Is there a way to listen to the SA 8300 audio successfully while my TV stays off?
Connect the video by the component connections and you can do this. HDMI is a 2-way connection, and the cable box senses that the TV has been turned off and subsequently turns itself "off" (stays on, but doesn't output audio or video).

If you use component connections (a one way connection), the box has no way of knowing that the TV has been powered down and keeps doing its thing regardless.

It is interesting how much alike Passport and SARA *look*. I wonder if this is imposed by the software/hardware toolkit that SA surely provides.

Anyway, Pioneer/Aptiv does have a "Getting Started" PDF available from their website but it doesn't go into hookups or advanced settings. I presume they leave this up to the cableco to handle.

Connect the video by the component connections and you can do this. HDMI is a 2-way connection, and the cable box senses that the TV has been turned off and subsequently turns itself "off" (stays on, but doesn't output audio or video).

If you use component connections (a one way connection), the box has no way of knowing that the TV has been powered down and keeps doing its thing regardless.
Recent postings suggest that this is no longer true and that setups connected by both component and HDMI are now "controlled" by the HDMI connection. Those posters have reported that a powered-down display shuts down the STB. Some - many? - all? - cable providers have blasted out a new Passport Echo version to stay current with a new 8300HD hardware rev being shipped by SA.

....
Is there a way to listen to the SA 8300 audio successfully while my TV stays off?

thanks,
Rick

This was the case with Passport v 1.8.... and is no longer true with the upgrade we received here in Raleigh recently v 2...048(?)

In fact My TV can be off for hours (not many though) and I can turn on my Receiver and get the audio, even change the channel as if the TV is on....Still get the audio.

However, there is a new "feature" that turns the STB off after some period of time. I used to leave it on (always) and still do, but the STB now shuts off after some hours pass.

It is interesting how much alike Passport and SARA *look*. I wonder if this is imposed by the software/hardware toolkit that SA surely provides..I've scanned the PowerTV development docs online at SciAtl's site. The color scheme and fonts in use in the two, which are similar, may represent the path of least resistance. Or it could be that the Human Factors people at the two companies think alike.

This was the case with Passport v 1.8.... and is no longer true with the upgrade we received here in Raleigh recently v 2...048(?)

In fact My TV can be off for hours (not many though) and I can turn on my Receiver and get the audio, even change the channel as if the TV is on....Still get the audio.

However, there is a new "feature" that turns the STB off after some period of time. I used to leave it on (always) and still do, but the STB now shuts off after some hours pass.
This may be relevant: I just discovered that I have a new setting in Settings|More Settings. It is Power Manager and it controls settop power and harddrive power. Get your head out of DIAG and viisit the boring user settings page.

Pepar, I do not understand your comment re Scott Bernstien. I believe what you are both saying can be true, Scott's statement is germane only when the component connection is the only one (No HDMI). Your comment is with both connected, wherein the HDMI function appears to take control.

I thought, based on what was printed in the user manual (unfortunately the SARA version), that the purpose of the DD vs HDMI digital output selection was to indicate whether HDMI was to control audio based on the TV's capability, or audio was to always be available as presented on the cable.

The on-screen guide layout is exactly alike, i.e. small preview window in the upper-right, program description in the upper-left, and grid in the middle. Even those stupid A, B, and C buttons are there too. It's just too coincidental, don't you think ??

The on-screen guide layout is exactly alike, i.e. small preview window in the upper-right, program description in the upper-left, and grid in the middle. Even those stupid A, B, and C buttons are there too. It's just too coincidental, don't you think ??

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/passport_guide.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/sara_guide.JPG

(Sorry--those are probably a little out-dated). Hmmm. I look at the two and all I see are the differences (and I don't mean the lovely young lady :)). They are similar in layout, but the artwork in the Passport version is definitely a lot less crude. An engineer might have designed the SARA one, but there were definitely professional graphic artists involved with Passport's menus. Notice the little touches like the pronounced shadowing under the "bezel" and button-icons, and the specular highlights on those icons, giving the whole thing much more of a "3D" feel. (I was also wrong about them using the same color scheme and fonts).

The buttons do different things, but I think that the state-dependent 3-button system is basic to the design of the box and its remote. Pioneer might have had the leeway to change this, but there wasn't any really good reason to; it's not a bad paradigm.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/passport_settings.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/sara_settings.JPG

The General Settings dialogs are very similar. Again, the Passport version is visually slicker. No doubt, Pioneer had full access to the SARA IPG code. (Most CDMA phones are developed with Qualcomm's tool chain, and it comes with full source of their example phone UI). All the remaining menus (Saved Recordings, etc) are completely different, and the functions work differently. Passport Echo is a fusion of the SARA IPG and TiVo's UI--I heard from a TiVo employee that its close enough that they're considering suit against Pioneer Broadband. Of course, TiVo basically feels that they should be able to sue anyone who dares to make a box which records television onto an HDD :D.

Pepar, I do not understand your comment re Scott Bernstien. I believe what you are both saying can be true, Scott's statement is germane only when the component connection is the only one (No HDMI). Your comment is with both connected, wherein the HDMI function appears to take control.

I thought, based on what was printed in the user manual (unfortunately the SARA version), that the purpose of the DD vs HDMI digital output selection was to indicate whether HDMI was to control audio based on the TV's capability, or audio was to always be available as presented on the cable.
The original poster, Rick Fehnel, was using HDMI for video and coaxial for audio, so my reply was for that scenario.

Hmmm. I look at the two and all I see are the differences (and I don't mean the lovely young lady :)). They are similar in layout, but the artwork in the Passport version is definitely a lot less crude. An engineer might have designed the SARA one, but there were definitely professional graphic artists involved with Passport's menus. Notice the little touches like the pronounced shadowing under the "bezel" and button-icons, and the specular highlights on those icons, giving the whole thing much more of a "3D" feel. (I was also wrong about them using the same color scheme and fonts).

The General Settings dialogs are very similar. Again, the Passport version is visually slicker. No doubt, Pioneer had full access to the SARA IPG code. (Most CDMA phones are developed with Qualcomm's tool chain, and it comes with full source of their example phone UI). All the remaining menus (Saved Recordings, etc) are completely different, and the functions work differently. Passport Echo is a fusion of the SARA IPG and TiVo's UI--I heard from a TiVo employee that its close enough that they're considering suit against Pioneer Broadband. Of course, TiVo basically feels that they should be able to sue anyone who dares to make a box which records television onto an HDD :D.
What one person may view as Passport being less crude, another may view as SARA being less cluttered and more accessible; the typeface seems larger and crisper and easier to read.

Not that I'd disagree with you though, Mike. :)

Just a note in passing; I am watching and active in two threads, this one and the one for the VP30. What is interesting is that they are both about 108 pages long with some of the same people contributing.

With the recent upgrade here in Raleigh I experienced the "Snow" white out when changing over from Component to HDMI, which didn't occur (I think) before the upgrade. I finally had a chance to mess with this and think its solved and understood. If you've figured this out, then ignore this post. If not, then this may help you, too.

I only experience the problem when using "Dolby Digital" for Audio Out (Settings, A, etc.) and then (and only then) changing input source (on my Sony 55XS...HDTV) from HDMI to Component and then back to HDMI. My "understanding" is that this is logical since I've told the SA8300 to output DD 5.1, so that when I try going back to HDMI it fails the handshake. That causes no audio AND no picture (Snow).

So the impact (work around) for watching either source with DD 5.1 is:
1. HDMI w/DD 5.1 requires change of Audio Out to "Dolby Digital"
2. Component w/DD5.1 works with Audio Out set to HDMI or Dolby Digital
3. Before changing video source from HDMI to Component, ALWAYS set SA8300 to Audio Out of HDMI (or else you you'll get Snow when trying to get back to HDMI from Component).

In all cases my SA8300 has (Digital) Audio connected to my Denon Receiver (to verify the DD 5.1). I leave the Denon off (mostly) when watching, and HDMI handles the Audio to the Sony's speakers. Its only when I want DD 5.1 (and a choice between Component or HDMI) that the above is needed.

Net Result: I'm leaning more and more to HDMI only, and using the SA8300 settings to shift between HDMI and Dolby Digital as needed. I can turn either off, and the PQ is as good as Component (I'm not sure HDMI is better, yet). All I have to do is NOT change the Audio Out to Dolby Digital from HDMI on the SA8300 when using Component (but only when I want DD 5.1 with HDMI).

If your results differ, I'd be curious in knowing how.

I know I am a little behind on this...but just another data point, that is exactly the behavior I am seeing here in Orange County with TWC on my NEC 50XR. A funny side note, if I change to another input on the display (leaving Digital out to HDMI on the SA8300) and leave the Denon AVR switched to the STB, the audio flips over to Dolby Digtial pretty funny.
So I am too an currently using HDMI, digital out set to HDMI, but swiching to Dolby Digital for content that supplies DD, less probs with snow when switching between inputs, other wise I need to power cycle the panel... not what I like to do.

What one person may view as Passport being less crude, another may view as SARA being less cluttered and more accessible; the typeface seems larger and crisper and easier to read.

Not that I'd disagree with you though, Mike. :)I'm not convinced that the fuzziness of the Passport fonts aren't due to the fact that these are extreme magnifications of tiny little inset graphics from documentation. They seem crisp enough on-screen. I'm also not convinced that the SARA ones aren't cheats, mainly composed of resize-able Acrobat graphics primitives; they're suspiciously clean when blown up.

And feel free to disagree with me, prepar :). There can be no real discussion without debate.

I'm not convinced that the fuzziness of the Passport fonts aren't due to the fact that these are extreme magnifications of tiny little inset graphics from documentation. They seem crisp enough on-screen. I'm also not convinced that the SARA ones aren't cheats, mainly composed of resize-able Acrobat graphics primitives; they're suspiciously clean when blown up.
Vector graphics?

And feel free to disagree with me, prepar :). There can be no real discussion without debate.
"prepar?" OK, Mick. :)

8300HD newbie here. I searched this forum using different searches and came up blank. My question is, Is there a way to make the colon between the hours and minutes in the clock stop flashing? It is not flashing in sync with time (it is flashing faster than every second)

Thanks!!

8300HD newbie here. I searched this forum using different searches and came up blank. My question is, Is there a way to make the colon between the hours and minutes in the clock stop flashing? It is not flashing in sync with time (it is flashing faster than every second) On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.

Hi All,

This morning in the Raleigh/Durham NC area, our SA8300HD DVR passport boxes were updated. The interesting thing now is that after you go to ch 999 to get info on the system, there is a new entry, SATA, and when you go to it it says "SATA Status: Authorized".

So, does anyone know if that means we can hook up external SATA driver now? BTW, here is some version info.....

----------------------------------------------------
ResApp Version: PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048
OS Version: PowerTV 6.14.69.1sp
Driver Version: 1
ResApp DatE: March 20 2006, 1:19:47
OS Date: Dec 2, 2005, 6:31:08 PM
----------------------------------------------------


My Netegriti 250GB external SATA drive finally arrived. After hooking it up with my SA8300HD DVR running "PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048", life is good. For the first time in a while, I didn't see any recorded programs scheduled for deletion.

The drive is fairly quiet for a drive with fan. I'll probably cover up the bright blue led on the front since its so bright. Anyway, here's hoping it behaves well and doesn't cause any issues over the next few months.

My Netegriti 250GB external SATA drive finally arrived. After hooking it up with my SA8300HD DVR running "PASSPORT Echo 2.5.048", life is good. For the first time in a while, I didn't see any recorded programs scheduled for deletion.

The drive is fairly quiet for a drive with fan. I'll probably cover up the bright blue led on the front since its so bright. Anyway, here's hoping it behaves well and doesn't cause any issues over the next few months.

But are the 'trick play' buffers working? My Maxtor Quickview 160 arrived yesterday and it works fine too... except for trick play. Ive got it behind a 'post' on the stand so I cant see the lights.

So close yet so far away...... :)

I'm not convinced that the fuzziness of the Passport fonts aren't due to the fact that these are extreme magnifications of tiny little inset graphics from documentation. They seem crisp enough on-screen. I'm also not convinced that the SARA ones aren't cheats, mainly composed of resize-able Acrobat graphics primitives; they're suspiciously clean when blown up.

And feel free to disagree with me, prepar :). There can be no real discussion without debate.

you're right the images in the SARA manual are mockups using scaleable fonts. From the few screen shots I've seen of the SARA version it looks like it shares the same typeface quality as the Passport version just bigger sizes in certain areas and lacking the graphical bevels and some of the drop shadows.

I'm in between. I like the time highlight on the SARA but the depth and brighter colors of the Echo guide and the clearer way it splits up the PIP info but I could do without the big fake metal bezel. Especially the way it angles in for no useful purpose. It just makes it look cramped. Why don't they just have it going straight down?

Dang it..... Everything is working fine with the external SATA (Netegriti) except for trick play functionality...... Since its not working with your Maxtor Quickview either, sounds like a SA problem.

Frack... This makes me almost want to disconnect the external SATA and go back to my paltry 160G of space.....

SCSIRAID, any ideas on what the problem is or how to fix it?

Dang it..... Everything is working fine with the external SATA (Netegriti) except for trick play functionality...... Since its not working with your Maxtor Quickview either, sounds like a SA problem.

Frack... This makes me almost want to disconnect the external SATA and go back to my paltry 160G of space.....

SCSIRAID, any ideas on what the problem is or how to fix it?

SMOP... Simple Matter of Programming... Only solution is wait (and wait and wait) for TWC to roll out a code update that works. Until the capability is officially supported or actually works, I will keep mine disconnected unless the box gets real full or I go out of town.

Patience grasshopper.... yeah right..... NOT :)

Try this, if the DVR is doing the load balancing I think it is, its going to be filling the new drive and using it until the old drive has more space than the new drive. Record HD content until the external has matched the internal, delete some stuff off the internal so it becomes the "active" drive and see if Trick Play functions work again.

Do they work now with something that is on the internal?

How about only turning on the eSata when you want to put something on it? (something you want to keep, but trick play isn't that needed compared to commercial skipping).

Well, traded in my SA8000 today for an SA8300 and now I have the audio option to choose dolby digital vs hdmi when using hdmi for video. Maybe it was just updated recently as I just emailed TWC charlotte maybe 2 weeks ago complaining that I could only get 5.1 sound using component and not hdmi. Sure glad I decided to give the 8300 another go now :)

We received an upgrade (and some further updates) here in Raleigh recently. I now can set the Output format to all selections and the TWC STB seems to handle it properly on the pass through (e.g., 720P and 1080i). ABC, ESPN are 720P and others 1080i.

Was this the case with v1.8....,too? I seem to recall that selecting 1080i led to that feed, where 720P from ABC was upscaled to 1080i and then re-scaled by my TV to its resolution.

Can't tell if I blinked or was asleep :)

Its not in my 2.5.048

Re: Power Manager and Manual Off: It was NOT there for me either for v2.5.048 when you posted this only days ago.

Its there now. I think we're getting minor updates after the initial upgrade.

Thankfully, I seem to be able to control the box powering off by itself overnight or after long periods of inactivity.

TWC, if you listened, thanks.

Re: Power Manager and Manual Off: It was NOT there for me either for v2.5.048 when you posted this only days ago.

Its there now. I think we're getting minor updates after the initial upgrade.

Thankfully, I seem to be able to control the box powering off by itself overnight or after long periods of inactivity.

TWC, if you listened, thanks.

Yup.... I just checked.... Its there now.....

Now if they would just fix external SATA........

Re: Power Manager and Manual Off: It was NOT there for me either for v2.5.048 when you posted this only days ago.

Its there now. I think we're getting minor updates after the initial upgrade.

Thankfully, I seem to be able to control the box powering off by itself overnight or after long periods of inactivity.

TWC, if you listened, thanks.
I'm not so sure I'd trust it to define "long periods of inactivity" for me and have left it at the default "manual off." Default for harddrive power is "on with settop". I was told by a tech support person that drive failures were/are the concern. Even though they have 100's of thousands - or millions? - of hours MTBF, failures were still becoming an issue. Personally, I don't think it is the time it runs per se, but rather the time it runs HOT. Most folks here are cognizant of heat and valuable components, but most other people stick 'em in small spaces/next to TVs, etc, with no concern for airflow.

I finally figured out how to get arround the static problem where switching from component to HDMI results in static. I just have to switch from one resolution to another. For example my HTPC is one input 6 via component to my Sony LCD. I usually have it on channel 255(CBS @1080i) when I switch back to input 7(HDMI) I get the fuzz. So I channel down to channel 250(FOX 720p) which is just one click because I have eliminated the SD channels in between. And then the picture comes back on. I assume that this fix won't work if you only output 720p or 1080i instead of using the programs native resoution? The switch from 1080i to 720p occurs alot faster now so I am not sure why you wouldn't display it natively.