DVDGuru,

I am also in Charlotte and I am anxious for the Audio Out option. What version of passport does your 8300HD box have on it? Mine still does not have it.

I finally figured out how to get arround the static problem where switching from component to HDMI results in static. .......I get the fuzz. So I channel down .......

Thanks for the tip, that worked for me.

Dthoma2,

I am confused 1.8.112 has the audio out selection option. What are you running?

Actually, I need to update my profile as I recently moved to Shelby from Charlotte. Passport over here is thru APTIV so it may different over here. It would be hard to believe that Shelby is ahead of Charlotte in this respect lol but you never know. It may just be Aptiv doing it their way vs the "charlotte way". When i moved here in november my 8300 didn't have the audio select function so one of the updates since then must have changed it...

...So I channel down to channel 250(FOX 720p) which is just one click because I have eliminated the SD channels in between...How did you do this? Are you talking about using the Favorite button, or on a programmable remote?

And the $64k question: are the eliminated channels shown in the guide?

v/r,
C-F

Believe it or not, both of my boxes still have 1.8.095. :mad: :eek:

Another quick question about the HDMI repeater compatibility issue...

Can or will that be fixed by a Passport Echo firmware fix or is a limitation with the actual hardware that Scientific-Atlanta has to fix?

Believe it or not, both of my boxes still have 1.8.095. :mad: :eek:

Another quick question about the HDMI repeater compatibility issue...

Can or will that be fixed by a Passport Echo firmware fix or is a limitation with the actual hardware that Scientific-Atlanta has to fix?
From the Audioholics piece, it looks like SA already has code available to fix the problem. Re-read it. It urges subscribers to call a supervisor at their cable provider and ask. Problem is, one person did that and was told something like "yeah, maybe, but we don't know when. Use component." Totally friggin' unacceptable.

How did you do this? Are you talking about using the Favorite button, or on a programmable remote?

And the $64k question: are the eliminated channels shown in the guide?

v/r,
C-F

I have Suscom, not TWC, but I noticed that there's a new entry underneath the Favorites entry that allows for skipped channels. You enter all the channels you want to skip, and you don't surf through them anymore. Unfortunately, they are not hidden in the guide. I do miss this feature from Dish along with the 30sec skip.

I have Suscom, not TWC, but I noticed that there's a new entry underneath the Favorites entry that allows for skipped channels. You enter all the channels you want to skip, and you don't surf through them anymore. Unfortunately, they are not hidden in the guide. I do miss this feature from Dish along with the 30sec skip.
Welcome, pumkinut. I'm in York on Suscom. Yeah, it's pretty useless as I don't put anything in my Favorites that I don't want to see.

Well, traded in my SA8000 today for an SA8300 and now I have the audio option to choose dolby digital vs hdmi when using hdmi for video. Maybe it was just updated recently as I just emailed TWC charlotte maybe 2 weeks ago complaining that I could only get 5.1 sound using component and not hdmi. Sure glad I decided to give the 8300 another go now :)

Are you saying you now can get 5.1 to your receiver when STB is set to output HDMI? Because I can't.

My setup is SA8300 TWC San Diego Passport (v ?)
STB connected to Pan receiver (SA-XR55) via digital coax
STB connected to Sharp TV (LC45GD5U) via HDMI

When STB is in HDMI I get 2-channel audio to TV (all it can handle) and to receiver.
When STB is in Dolby Digital I get zero audio to TV and 5.1 audio to receiver.

Since I don't want the kids to have to turn on receiver to watch their shows the workaround is to keep STB at HDMI and then switch to DD for watching movies.

Are you saying you now can get 5.1 to your receiver when STB is set to output HDMI? Because I can't.

My setup is SA8300 TWC San Diego Passport (v ?)
STB connected to Pan receiver (SA-XR55) via digital coax
STB connected to Sharp TV (LC45GD5U) via HDMI

When STB is in HDMI I get 2-channel audio to TV (all it can handle) and to receiver.
When STB is in Dolby Digital I get zero audio to TV and 5.1 audio to receiver.

Since I don't want the kids to have to turn on receiver to watch their shows the workaround is to keep STB at HDMI and then switch to DD for watching movies.If you're in San Diego, your box should be running Passport Echo 2.5.041; you can check that by looking at the summary diag page on channel 998. You should come to the hdtv.forsandiego.com Time Warner Cable forum (http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html?1144342882) and ask folks about HDMI there. There's been quite a bit of discussion on the subject.

Welcome, pumkinut. I'm in York on Suscom. Yeah, it's pretty useless as I don't put anything in my Favorites that I don't want to see.

I wouldn't say it's useless if you channel surf instead of using the guide. Sometimes I do that, and with it I don't have to plough through all the PPV crap.

And yeah, I'm unfortunately back to Suscom. We had Dish for over two years, but when they couldn't/wouldn't give us major network HD feeds, I dropped them. Although being back with Suscom has made me rethink that decision. Their tech support is laughable, and I may have to fight them in order to get a new drop to my house from the ped or at least bring it off another tap. My signal levels are in the basement on the higher frequency channels, and it effects the HD more than anything (-14dBm from the NID). I've tried calling them about it and their response, after asking what are signal levels and BER readings, was to reboot the STB. :rolleyes:

It's too bad I'm leaving Comcast, just as they're moving into the area. I'm waiting to see what, if anything, they have in store for upgrading the infrastructure. VOD would be nice, and if they could up the upstream rate for the data service, I might have a reason to switch from DSL.

I wouldn't say it's useless if you channel surf instead of using the guide. Sometimes I do that, and with it I don't have to plough through all the PPV crap.

And yeah, I'm unfortunately back to Suscom. We had Dish for over two years, but when they couldn't/wouldn't give us major network HD feeds, I dropped them. Although being back with Suscom has made me rethink that decision. Their tech support is laughable, and I may have to fight them in order to get a new drop to my house from the ped or at least bring it off another tap. My signal levels are in the basement on the higher frequency channels, and it effects the HD more than anything (-14dBm from the NID). I've tried calling them about it and their response, after asking what are signal levels and BER readings, was to reboot the STB. :rolleyes:

It's too bad I'm leaving Comcast, just as they're moving into the area. I'm waiting to see what, if anything, they have in store for upgrading the infrastructure. VOD would be nice, and if they could up the upstream rate for the data service, I might have a reason to switch from DSL.
Ahh, I forgot about surfing as I always tune direct of from the IPG. Suscom becomes a Comcast property May 1, but I don't look for any changes, at least not for a while.

FWIW, I have an "aftermarket" two-way broadband amp and home runs of RG6 from the garage to all outlet locations. I have excellent PQ and rarely need to call for tech support. But on the occasions that a tech has shown up, they've been extremely knowledgeble.

Hey, nice "location." I may have to change mine to "just north of punkinut."

From the Audioholics piece, it looks like SA already has code available to fix the problem. Re-read it. It urges subscribers to call a supervisor at their cable provider and ask. Problem is, one person did that and was told something like "yeah, maybe, but we don't know when. Use component." Totally friggin' unacceptable.

i have spoken to both Yamaha and SA about the repeater issue. Yamaha says SA has a fix and the SA person i spoke to knew nothing. the yamaha guy claims that where he lives he got the fix and his repeater started working. i agree the whole mess is unacceptable, but people here have gotten mad at me for saying that HDMI is voodoo. they should not have released it until the bugs were out. if it's any consolation neither TWC with passport or Cablevision with sara works with a repeater.

I am using the SA8300HD (2 units) with a DVDO VP30 scaler driving a Benq display over a HDMI to DVI cable. The VP30 scaler is a repeater in the classic sense of an HDMI repeater as opposed to a signal repeater.

The passport version is 1.8.112. There are definitely problems and I could list them. Most of the problems have to do with the interactions between the VP30 which has 4 HDMI inputs and the SA8300HD's which are on two of them as HDCP is negotiated and encryption if any is handled during the switching of inputs as opposed to channel changes..

The video problems relate to large black areas showing up when inputs are switched (not always but most times) I am told this is a known passport problem but it never occurs on a SA8300HD connected to a HDCP compliant display (HDMI/DVI connection). Of it is a known problem then someone should address it. yes I know the problems with SA, Aptiva, cable co's. Too many cooks in the kitchen, or more accurately, too many handoffs in the delivery chain with no accountability.

I have not seen the snow issue in at least a month or two but I have seen it, so as far as I am concerned it is a non issue at this time for me.

There are many audio dropout issues, and sometimes the complete loss of audio, which is often fixed by either power cycling the VP30 or the DVR. I feel this indicates a problem with HDCP handshaking and what can and can not be done.

The explanations on use of the audio output settings (DD, HDMI, Analog) are practically nonexistent for a Passport box, and while stated for a SARA box, what is stated does not seem to be correct for the Passport software version.

In general almost all components are having problems of one sort or another with HDMI. I also believe the industry should never had adopted it in its current state. If you want all digital paths you have no choice, you need HDMI in the consumer world (SDI is there but it is the exception).

You folks are nuts, there's nothing wrong with HDMI that wasn't wrong with any other beta at this point in its development. What is it, v.8, v.9 by now? It's 1.1? Holy sh1t, are they friggin' insane? That's the most absurd thing I've even heard.

:D

Just thought I'd pass along that the latest update to the 8300 from TWC has resolved the issue I had with HDMI not working through the Yamaha 2600 A/V Receiver. The receiver will now switch properly between multiple HDMI sources (at least with my equipment). I had reported the HDMI issue twice to TWC since Dec, never received an answer, but now it's fixed. Thanks if you're listening!

Just thought I'd pass along that the latest update to the 8300 from TWC has resolved the issue I had with HDMI not working through the Yamaha 2600 A/V Receiver. The receiver will now switch properly between multiple HDMI sources (at least with my equipment). I had reported the HDMI issue twice to TWC since Dec, never received an answer, but now it's fixed. Thanks if you're listening!

holy sh*t it works with the yamaha i'll try this weekend

If you're in San Diego, your box should be running Passport Echo 2.5.041; you can check that by looking at the summary diag page on channel 998. You should come to the hdtv.forsandiego.com Time Warner Cable forum (http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html?1144342882) and ask folks about HDMI there. There's been quite a bit of discussion on the subject.

thanks for the link and how to check which firmware version.

Jeff

Is there any way to get closed-caption (CC) to appear ONLY when the 8300HD is in Mute?

Thank you,
James

... Frack... This makes me almost want to disconnect the external SATA and go back to my paltry 160G of space.....

Is anyone brave enough to open up the 8300hd and connect there bigger SATA drive directly?
If it works you will get more space and not lose any functionality.

Yes, my 8300hd outputs 5.1 thru optical when using hdmi. There's a new audio out option now. I have "HDMI, 2 channel and dolby digital" as audio selections. Before, I didn't have the dolby digital option so it would only output 2 channel when using hdmi.

Is there any way to get closed-caption (CC) to appear ONLY when the 8300HD is in Mute?

Thank you,
James

It has nothing to do with the 8300, it is your TV that does the CC decoding and display.

It has nothing to do with the 8300, it is your TV that does the CC decoding and display.

I know that my TV has a CC decoder and that it gives me lots of CC options (on, off, font size, font color).

However, I thought (from what I saw last night at home) that the 8300 also gave me options including - turn closed caption on and turn off. Does it also have a CC decoder or does it use the one in the TV? If it does not have a built-in decoder, then it must use the one in the TV -- which implies that a TV without a built-in Closed-caption decoder connected to the 8300 would not be able to do CC?

Would someone confirm if there is a closed-caption decoder in the 8300?

Thanks,
James

I believe there's *something* related to CC in the boxes. Isn't there a menu that lets you choose the opacity of the text, the font type, font size, etc, etc ??

Is anyone brave enough to open up the 8300hd and connect there bigger SATA drive directly?
If it works you will get more space and not lose any functionality.
Tampering with Cable Owned equipment can be detected by the cable system...resulting in loss of service....and formal charges of cable theft...

Tampering with Cable Owned equipment can be detected by the cable system...resulting in loss of service....and formal charges of cable theft...
Shhhh! Not true. Not true at all, dslate69! :)

Is anyone brave enough to open up the 8300hd and connect there bigger SATA drive directly?
If it works you will get more space and not lose any functionality.

Its likely that the OS and data structures are on that HDD. If you change it to another drive the chances are the the DVR will no longer work at all.

Its likely that the OS and data structures are on that HDD. If you change it to another drive the chances are the the DVR will no longer work at all.
I thought that was the case. Actually, a couple people claim with SARA units to have performed a HDD swap successfully on this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=483092) thread, proving me wrong (at least for SARA units).

If the SARA units don't have the OS on the hard drive and can initialize a new drive automatically, it is very possible that the Passport units could be the same way.

I have personally been trying to work up the courage (and work my way through a bunch of saved programs) to give it a try. Despite the fact that it is not my unit, of course. All sorts of potential issues there...

Anybody else willing to give it a try and report back???

I thought that was the case. Actually, a couple people claim with SARA units to have performed a HDD swap successfully on this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=483092) thread, proving me wrong (at least for SARA units).

If the SARA units don't have the OS on the hard drive and can initialize a new drive automatically, it is very possible that the Passport units could be the same way.

I have personally been trying to work up the courage (and work my way through a bunch of saved programs) to give it a try. Despite the fact that it is not my unit, of course. All sorts of potential issues there...

Anybody else willing to give it a try and report back???

Well I guess its possible they could be doing a remote boot over the cable. I havent tried to boot the box without the cable attached.

I'll read that thread more thoroughly this weekend, but with the 8000HD, SARA users also had the ability to re-format the HHD with a button sequence. IIRC, those boxes also seemed to automatically format the [new/substituted] HHD, but only used a portion of the space. Which gave the experiments a little better chance for success.

I have not seen a comparable trick with PASSPORT. Which would make me leery of the boxes' ability to format and load the new HHD correctly.

Might also want to look up galen's experiences with the eSATA. The internal diagnostic pages did an interesting meld of the internal and external drive sector counts. Could be a function of the report format, or not...

v/r,
C-F

As always:
Panty-twisters beware, YMMV, first reports are never correct, information not from primary sources is always suspect, etc.

I believe there's *something* related to CC in the boxes. Isn't there a menu that lets you choose the opacity of the text, the font type, font size, etc, etc ??Yes, the CC ON/OFF function in the STB is in the first settings menu. I use it all the time, and my wife hates it (but she uses headphones anyway).

The second [A] menu has some further settings, which work as funky as the aspect ratios here. The HD and the SD captions are handled differently. I have gotten a nice small text with translucent background in HD that I like, but the SD version is always large, solid black, and covers too much of the screen.

All experiences here suggest it is completely separate from the TV. I have never been able to get my TV (which can do [ON W/MUTE]) to recognize any CC stream in the component signal (480i/p or 1080i), but that may be a limitation of this set.

v/r,
C-F

I know that my TV has a CC decoder and that it gives me lots of CC options (on, off, font size, font color).

However, I thought (from what I saw last night at home) that the 8300 also gave me options including - turn closed caption on and turn off. Does it also have a CC decoder or does it use the one in the TV? If it does not have a built-in decoder, then it must use the one in the TV -- which implies that a TV without a built-in Closed-caption decoder connected to the 8300 would not be able to do CC?

Would someone confirm if there is a closed-caption decoder in the 8300?

Thanks,
James

OK, M y fault. Yes there is a built in decoder, but to answer the original question. No you can not have it only display the CC when you push the mute button on your TV as the Mute talks to the TV not the 8300...

Well I guess its possible they could be doing a remote boot over the cable. I havent tried to boot the box without the cable attached.It's far more likely that a large portion of the firmware is loaded into memory on boot from flash.

This was the original question:
Is there any way to get closed-caption (CC) to appear ONLY when the 8300HD is in Mute? This has nothing whatsoever to do with the TV Mute button or the TV CC mode. The answer is still No, but only because the 8300 CC mode is either On or Off, there is no On When Mute option. :)

It's far more likely that a large portion of the firmware is loaded into memory on boot from flash.That is exactly what happens. I read the begnning of the thread referred to and I can see where some folks might get the idea that the OS is on the HDD. All they really said though is that the HDD contained some SA proprietary overhead software and some folks took this to mean the OS. When you reboot, the flash OS is loaded to memory unless it's been. I'm not sure the boot process would complete though if the unit was not able to communicate with the cableco for authentication, IPG data, etc.

With SARA there is a way to reformat the HDD, though I've never tried it. This would suggest that the HDD could be swapped out, but much of the referred to thread discussed the 8000 back in 2004 and somethings may have changed with the 8300. HDTVoice.com has quite a few Canadian members and they can purchase their units up there. Perhaps one of them has replaced the HDD.

This was the original question:
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the TV Mute button or the TV CC mode. The answer is still No, but only because the 8300 CC mode is either On or Off, there is no On When Mute option. :)

Sigh - bummer :( .

OK - then is there a short cut to turn on CC? I know that it is available through the settings button, but I was hoping that there was some other trick with 2 or 3 keys?

Thanks,
James

Not that I know of, short of a programmable remote. On my system, it's Guide, Up, Up, Right, Select. Not sure that anything more than 1 key is much easier.

... SARA users also had the ability to re-format the HHD with a button sequence. IIRC, those boxes also seemed to automatically format the [new/substituted] HHD, but only used a portion of the space. Which gave the experiments a little better chance for success.

I have not seen a comparable trick with PASSPORT. Which would make me leery of the boxes' ability to format and load the new HHD correctly.


I know it's not the same but having the 8300HD format the new SATA drive externally first would insure a properly formated drive. Unless that is the internal drive is partitioned differently for virtual memory reasons. Given the fact the external drive (with more free space) takes over the live buffer, I doubt this to be the case.

galen's . . diagnostic pages did an interesting meld of the internal and external drive sector counts.
Very well put!

It's far more likely that a large portion of the firmware is loaded into memory on boot from flash.
That's what I was thinking, or more precisely - guessing. How much code are we talking about here? It may all be on EEPROM. Is it likely they'd rely upon magnetic storage - easily scrambled magnetic storage - for OS and/or firmware?

I'm not sure the boot process would complete though if the unit was not able to communicate with the cableco for authentication, IPG data, etc.
I was told that the boxes will NOT fully boot or function properly if they're not connected when they boot. The question of what happens if the cableco has an outage and you'd like to be able to watch pre-recorded stuff. That DOES work as I tested it by disconnecting the cable while the box was up and running. Apparently it only checks for authorization once.

It should be easy to test how far you can get by disconnecting the cable and cold booting it.

That's what I was thinking, or more precisely - guessing. How much code are we talking about here? It may all be on EEPROM. Is it likely they'd rely upon magnetic storage - easily scrambled magnetic storage - for OS and/or firmware?Most definitely. Any field strong enough to scramble the flash is going to screw up other aspects of the electronics, most notably the HDD. It's the most common way of storing firmware in modern electronics (and I count the RTOS as firmware). As long as the basic flash-loading code remains uncorrupted, they can reload the flash remotedly. If that goes, it'll need to be brought in for maintenance to restore it. The assumption would be that that will be an extremely rare occurence.

Please recall that the non-DVR STBs get remotely loaded firmware updates, though they have no disk drives.

As for how much code we're talking about, I have no idea for this application. The last mobile handset that I worked on had over 2 million lines of code in it, and growing. It operated on a processor with 16 MB of RAM and 8 MB of flash stacked on it. But mid- to high-end cellphones implement a much larger set of diverse capabilities than one of these boxes and would require more code (though not nearly as much memory for graphics imaging buffers :)).
I was told that the boxes will NOT fully boot or function properly if they're not connected when they boot. The question of what happens if the cableco has an outage and you'd like to be able to watch pre-recorded stuff. That DOES work as I tested it by disconnecting the cable while the box was up and running. Apparently it only checks for authorization once.I don't know how often it checks, but I've seen the rare service interruption where the box refused to let me make any use of it until the service was back up.

I don't know how often it checks, but I've seen the rare service interruption where the box refused to let me make any use of it until the service was back up.
Control freaks! :)

Yeah, I guess saying it only checks once is wildly inaccurate. My "test" was nothing more than to disconnect the incoming cable feed and try to play a recorded program, which worked. I spent no more than 5 minutes testing this.

That's what I was thinking, or more precisely - guessing. How much code are we talking about here? It may all be on EEPROM. Is it likely they'd rely upon magnetic storage - easily scrambled magnetic storage - for OS and/or firmware?

Not magnetic media or an EEPROM. The box's firmware is stored in flash memory. The RTOS is there and is remotely upgradable from the HE. Most of the time the box has the ability to play what's on the HDD in the case of a cable outage, but two way communication is needed in order for it to know what channels you are subscribed to.

And as was posted before mine, the OS and firmware for all intents and purposes are identical in embedded design.

The boxes also probably have BOOTP capability, i.e. loading thier OS completely by downloading it from the HE. This is usually done with STBs in the case of disaster recovery. The image in flash can become corrupted. If it fails a hash or CRC check when trying to load, the box may be able to send a BOOTP request and receive a firmware image over the network. This would take time, because the flash has to be overwritten and then pass a consistency check in order to load. It's not pretty, but I've seen it happen.

RE the "Swap the Internal HHD" stuff, jjamezz, Bloup, comer, and strontium all have reported success with SARA - but Bloup gave pictures and happened to have the same HHD as me, so I added the SARA numbers to the previous spreadsheet.

I thought the unallocated (loss from Spec) sectors were shadowing/mirroring the OS flash @ 64MB, but the SARA numbers did not come out as clean. I also thought the unused sectors might contain the MOD/VOD/Poker software rumoured to be different in every system...I know it's not the same but having the 8300HD format the new SATA drive externally first would insure a properly formated drive. Unless that is the internal drive is partitioned differently for virtual memory reasons. Given the fact the external drive (with more free space) takes over the live buffer, I doubt this to be the case.The internal drive in my box is a PATA drive (Maxtor 4R160L0 QuickSpecs (http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/quick_specs/diamondmax_16_quick_specs.pdf)).
The buffers (TSB-0/1) are subset of AVFS. They evidently move between the internal and external drive as the recording target changes. They also seem to need to be cleared or initiated. I always thought they would jump all over the place, in case you wanted to record, it would just re-designate the beginning location and find a new hole for the buffer. That way no copying needs to be performed.

From here out just ramblings and a list of reported [things] I typed for some purpose then forgot...

Interesting idea the other way for the external folks. [1] If the STB would correctly auto/self partition the internal drive like SARA, there may be reason to try an IDE-SATA adapter - placing the SATA drive on the internal port to get the correct partitions on it, then replace the internal drive and hook the SATA to the eSATA port. Caveat: nothing indicates that PASSPORT has that functionality.

A second big caveat to that though: in the eSATA that have been successful, the loss of buffering seems to be associated with the target HHD for recording (based on available free space). But galen reported that the buffering continued in the background from 1. HHD noises and 2. hit-the-red-button recordings would contain content from the last channel change - not just from the button press. merlintl, KzY, and scsiraid may be able to confirm that it works the same on the newer firmware...


galen did not get eSATA to work for his box without firewire ports

galen got eSATA to work on 1.8.112 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6844859&&#post6844859) - only on one Rev 2.2 with firewire ports and removing the eSATA cable with everything up and running.

merlintl, KzY, scsiraid and others got eSATA to work with the new firmware (I saw no HW numbers)

FF/RW reportedly works only on recorded programs.

Pause reportedly works (just storing pointer to current read location).

the controller and some lower layer code recognizes the eSATA HHD (maybe after some hardware version)

higher code was not seemingly written to account for it,
.... 1.8.112 views the sectors as one big glob-o-space, a la galen's 500.7 GB (18.93 GB short of the expected sector combination).
.... (I have not seen numbers from any of the new PASSPORT eSATA)


v/r,
C-F

[1] But irrelevant in the long run hopefully, if Aptiv [implements] ;) eSATA fully.

Yes, my 8300hd outputs 5.1 thru optical when using hdmi. There's a new audio out option now. I have "HDMI, 2 channel and dolby digital" as audio selections. Before, I didn't have the dolby digital option so it would only output 2 channel when using hdmi.
yes, however it wont output 2 channel pcm through hdmi and 5.1 channel through optical at the same time. that is an option we need. we need them to downmix 5.1 over hdmi and output it via pcm format so 99.999999% of the tv sets out there can decode it, as none of them that i know of will decode 5.1 or even downmix it to play through built in speakers. so if you pick dolby digital, you dont get sound from your tv speakers.

I have a problem with my 8300HD on TWC NYC, and I wonder if this is a common issue:

Quite often, it will fail to record a show that is listed in the Series Manager. It seems to me that the cause has something to do with the calendar, although I am just grasping at straws here. Anyway, it seems like I have to create a new Series recording every once in a while, for every show. This isn't an issue of repeats and new shows, or a change in time slot or anything. In fact, I only realized it when I noticed, having created new 'record entire series' for a couple of shows, that I had two Series Manager listings each for several shows, settings for which were identical.

Is this a common problem with this second-rate software (I'm an old TiVO user, so I am pretty spoiled when it comes to functional DVR software)? Seems like every few weeks now, I have to go through and erase all the useless series and make new ones for the shows I want. Really a bummer time after time, when I only become aware of it because I notice half way through a new episode of a show I like is on but not being recorded.

I have seen that. I am on 1.8.112. Most of the time the show is a repeat, BUT I have definately seen what you are stating. I do not know the cause.

Just got a 8300HD box via TWC. In the manual I noticed there is an input (or maybe an output?) labeled IR, but it says reserved for future use. Anyone know if this is active? I'm assuming it's for an IR loop. I know they sometimes have these things turned on even when they say they don't. I didn't have the proper cable to try it myself...
Thanks

I have a problem with my 8300HD on TWC NYC, and I wonder if this is a common issue:

Quite often, it will fail to record a show that is listed in the Series Manager. It seems to me that the cause has something to do with the calendar, although I am just grasping at straws here. Anyway, it seems like I have to create a new Series recording every once in a while, for every show. This isn't an issue of repeats and new shows, or a change in time slot or anything. In fact, I only realized it when I noticed, having created new 'record entire series' for a couple of shows, that I had two Series Manager listings each for several shows, settings for which were identical.

Is this a common problem with this second-rate software (I'm an old TiVO user, so I am pretty spoiled when it comes to functional DVR software)? Seems like every few weeks now, I have to go through and erase all the useless series and make new ones for the shows I want. Really a bummer time after time, when I only become aware of it because I notice half way through a new episode of a show I like is on but not being recorded.

I've seen that same thing! Software 2.5.048

Can't wait for the Series 3

I have a problem with my 8300HD on TWC NYC, and I wonder if this is a common issue:

Quite often, it will fail to record a show that is listed in the Series Manager. It seems to me that the cause has something to do with the calendar, although I am just grasping at straws here. Anyway, it seems like I have to create a new Series recording every once in a while, for every show. This isn't an issue of repeats and new shows, or a change in time slot or anything. In fact, I only realized it when I noticed, having created new 'record entire series' for a couple of shows, that I had two Series Manager listings each for several shows, settings for which were identical.

Is this a common problem with this second-rate software (I'm an old TiVO user, so I am pretty spoiled when it comes to functional DVR software)? Seems like every few weeks now, I have to go through and erase all the useless series and make new ones for the shows I want. Really a bummer time after time, when I only become aware of it because I notice half way through a new episode of a show I like is on but not being recorded.

I don't think that is normal...I have two 8300HDs, and have never had the series recordings go 'bad' and need to be reset. I will occasionally have a conflict with too many things trying to record at the same time, but that is supposed to happen, and you can prioritize which series you want so the conflict eliminates the lowest priority series.

I understand the comparisons to Tivo, and I appreciate how nicely put together their software is, but I have had very good success with my 8300HDs and they offer a lot of functionality for the price.

This problem has been discussed in the past. After a change from/to daylight savings time, series recordings that state a specific time will fail to record and must be deleted and reentered. If you set up your series recording to record a show at any time that it is broadcast, it will not be affected by this bug. This is sloppy programming and should have been corrected long ago.

Cynthia

A second cause of similar behavior could be the quality of the [guide] information (also discussed previously). Slight changes in whatever field the recordings are indexed against caused problems (Billionaire/Rebel Billionaire was one). IIRC it may a hidden field and not the name everywhere. I am not sure if PASSPORT requires the same guide everywhere, but on the SARA side, differences when the head-end changed guide sources came out when [record new episodes] suddenly appeared as an option with no firmware change or update.

Caveat: Not saying that you should not first consider that particular STB as suspect first, unless you have verified a repeatable problem with others on your cable system.

v/r,
C-F

This problem has been discussed in the past. After a change from/to daylight savings time, series recordings that state a specific time will fail to record and must be deleted and reentered. If you set up your series recording to record a show at any time that it is broadcast, it will not be affected by this bug. This is sloppy programming and should have been corrected long ago.

Cynthia
I've never had this problem - a few days ago or previously. I specify a channel (HD) and "first run only" - sometimes I spec a time, sometimes I don't. Perhaps it's version- and/or cable system-specific? But then I've had 2.2.020 and now 2.5.043, and neither had the problem.

Another issue is programs that run long and also how you prioritize them. I wanted to add a series manager for the History Channel's "10 Days that Unexpectedly Changed America" which runs as two back-to-back shows in a two block from 9:00 PM to 11:00 PM.

I just used the defaults (any time, first run or repeats). I got a lot of programs of the series on the "scheduled to record" page as no-record (with the slash thru the circle) on several of the 9:00 PM showings.

I record NBC's "Deal or No Deal" as a series (any time, first run or repeats). It has been running long lately (about a minute or two). The program guide already has taken this into account (program recording from 8:00 PM to 9:02 PM) and if I already have something scheduled to record starting at 9:00 PM (which I do on Mondays and Wednesdays), it won't allow another program to start recording as both tuners are in use. I wound up deleting the series recording for "10 Days".

I'm on 2.5.041 in San Diego.

I think the issue is now hardware - the two tuner 8300HD model is too limited and we need something with more tuners (say, 4 as a minimum) and a lot bigger default hard drive (300 Gigagbytes for starters).

I think the issue is now hardware - the two tuner 8300HD model is too limited and we need something with more tuners (say, 4 as a minimum) and a lot bigger default hard drive (300 Gigagbytes for starters).
Well, that's an easy one; lease two STBs. I think it's unlikely that there will ever be a four-tuner version otherwise.

I'm also in San Diego; you should check out the hdtv.forsandiego.com forums.

I think the issue is now hardware - the two tuner 8300HD model is too limited and we need something with more tuners (say, 4 as a minimum) and a lot bigger default hard drive (300 Gigagbytes for starters).I'm also in San Diego using the same revision, but on my original SA8000HD.

The three-programs-overlap-a-little problem is something that I've had to deal with. ER is always scheduled from 9:59 to 11:00 PM; I just use a manual repeating recording of 10-11 PM on Thursdays. Lost, which airs at 9 PM Wednesdays, often runs 1-5 minutes long (this week's episode is 64 minutes long); at 10 PM I record CSI: NY and Law and Order. Unfortunately all I can do is keep an eye on the upcoming recordings list and if Law and Order get preempted, I schedule a recording on NBC which begins at the end of Lost, losing the first few minutes (most of which will be the lead-in credits and first ad break).

Though I could certainly use a 3 tuner model, as pepar said, that's just not going to happen any time soon. What might be helpful is a "automatically truncate lowest priority overlapped recording" set-up option; that way I wouldn't have to keep an eye out and set up manual recordings.

I think the issue is now hardware - the two tuner 8300HD model is too limited and we need something with more tuners (say, 4 as a minimum) and a lot bigger default hard drive (300 Gigagbytes for starters). Sounds like what Dish Network offers .... for hundreds of dollars up-front just for the privilege of getting one plus a montly lease fee. Something breaks on it, *you* pay to have their equipment fixed (unless you get the service contract). When a new, better model comes out, swap for it ?? Nope ... give it back to them and hope for a "credit". Will you still have to pay $$$ up-front plus a monthly fee ?? No one knows yet.

This problem has been discussed in the past. After a change from/to daylight savings time, series recordings that state a specific time will fail to record and must be deleted and reentered. If you set up your series recording to record a show at any time that it is broadcast, it will not be affected by this bug. This is sloppy programming and should have been corrected long ago.

Cynthia

I've not seen this problem on series recordings that specify a time (which are most of mine). We just had DST change and my series are all recording fine.

The only time I ever had my series recordings go bad was after TWCs conversion to all digital that was done last summer in my area, and TWC sent a letter stating that you had to reset all your series recordings due to the update.

Sounds like what Dish Network offers ....E* is offering a 3-tuner DVR? I haven't seen any notice of that.

Scientific Atlanta does have a 3-tuner DVR in its product line. It's the Explorer 8300DVB (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7004921.pdf), but it's for the EU market (it has two SCART connectors on the rear for a television and a VCR; it also has YPrPb and HDMI). It can record 3 programs and play back a recording simultaneously and has a built-in cable-modem.

The ViP622 has (2) satellite tuners plus at least (1) ATSC tuner. I realize it's not the same thing. It can record from all (3) tuners though.

The ViP622 has (2) satellite tuners plus at least (1) ATSC tuner. I realize it's not the same thing. It can record from all (3) tuners though.I just glanced at its manual and it leads me to believe that it can only record two programs at once.

Sometimes people will say that a device has "4 tuners" because it has two tuning sections each capable of tuning different things. People have claimed that the upcoming TiVo Series 3 has "6 tuners" becuase it has two NTSC/ATSC/CableCARD tuning sections. You can only use two tuners at a time, in any matched or mismatched combination of the three types.

It sems to me that the number of tuners is kind of a moot point because today's tuner chipsets are quite different from the individual tuners of days gone by. Regardless of the number of physical tuners, today's 8300HD is capable of tuning 2 analog, 2 digital/HD, or 1 of each. Tomorrow's S3 will have the capability of tuning 2 of each type or a combination of any 2 (maybe 3?).

I have a Panny 42PX60U running with Time Warner SA8300HD set top box connected via HDMI. I also have digital optical audio cable connected to my home theater system for audio.

My question is I notice that with the STB audio configured to output via HDMI, the STB sends only 2 channel PCM sound to the TV and the home theater system. If I turn off the TV while leaving the STB on, the sound to my Home theater system reverts to Dolby Digital 5.1 (on applicable broadcasts).

Alternatively, I can configure the STB audio to Dolby Digital, but then the sound goes only to the Home Theater system (no sound to TV).

My understanding is the 8300HD STB is supposed to send the digital signal via HDMI if the TV can handle Dolby Digital. If not, then the signal reverts to 2 channel (as it is doing with me). My question then is why does the STB not recognize that the Panny CAN handle the 5.1 signal? (I did not have this issue with a Philips TV I just returned for the Panny).

Anybody with this setup notice the same thing?

It sems to me that the number of tuners is kind of a moot point because today's tuner chipsets are quite different from the individual tuners of days gone by. Regardless of the number of physical tuners, today's 8300HD is capable of tuning 2 analog, 2 digital/HD, or 1 of each. Tomorrow's S3 will have the capability of tuning 2 of each type or a combination of any 2 (maybe 3?).
I think when most people hear "two tuners" they take that to mean having the capability to tune two different channels simultaneously. And they take "two channels simultaneously" to mean two tuners. Actual tuners, virtual tuners, tuner chipsets - that's all gobblygook.

I have a Panny 42PX60U running with Time Warner SA8300HD set top box connected via HDMI. I also have digital optical audio cable connected to my home theater system for audio.

My question is I notice that with the STB audio configured to output via HDMI, the STB sends only 2 channel PCM sound to the TV and the home theater system. If I turn off the TV while leaving the STB on, the sound to my Home theater system reverts to Dolby Digital 5.1 (on applicable broadcasts).

Alternatively, I can configure the STB audio to Dolby Digital, but then the sound goes only to the Home Theater system (no sound to TV).

My understanding is the 8300HD STB is supposed to send the digital signal via HDMI if the TV can handle Dolby Digital. If not, then the signal reverts to 2 channel (as it is doing with me). My question then is why does the STB not recognize that the Panny CAN handle the 5.1 signal? (I did not have this issue with a Philips TV I just returned for the Panny).

Anybody with this setup notice the same thing?

people on the yamaha 2600 forum have mentioned it. once again i have to state that HDMI is just a mystery.

Thought this would be of interest to the members here who like to keep up with such things (which is probably everybody :) ); there is an interesting piece (http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/11/technology/pluggedin_fortune0411/index.htm) on CNN/Fortune magazine about Cisco and "targetting the living room." There are quotes from Cisco CEO John Chambers, Cisco VP of routing technology and Scientific Atlanta CTO Bob McIntyre, as well as a direct reference to Time Warner.

Ok got a question. My brother wants to get a 30" tube hdtv tomorrow and wants the 8300hd dvr for LOCAL HD only. Anyone know the price monthly for that and how to ask TWC for that? I've read somewhere here at the avs that there's a certain way to ask for this so you don't have to buy extra channels, etc. He's already got TWC basic cable as well.

thanks

I think you have to have the digital cable first. ch's 1-178? plus the dvr cost and the hd channels cost.

Ok got a question. My brother wants to get a 30" tube hdtv tomorrow and wants the 8300hd dvr for LOCAL HD only. Anyone know the price monthly for that and how to ask TWC for that? I've read somewhere here at the avs that there's a certain way to ask for this so you don't have to buy extra channels, etc. He's already got TWC basic cable as well.

thanks

After you advise your brother about the shortsighted foolishness of spending money on a "30' tube hdtv" (whatever that is), just tell him to subscribe to TWCNYC's cheapest digital TV package.

My 8300HD from Brighthouse Cable (formerly TWC) is about $6 Bucks a month.

Ok got a question. My brother wants to get a 30" tube hdtv tomorrow and wants the 8300hd dvr for LOCAL HD only. Anyone know the price monthly for that and how to ask TWC for that? I've read somewhere here at the avs that there's a certain way to ask for this so you don't have to buy extra channels, etc. He's already got TWC basic cable as well.

thanks

Ive got a 40" CRT HDTV im trying to get rid of.....

Ive got a 40" CRT HDTV im trying to get rid of.....
And I've got a 29" Sony XBR910 that is stunning and perfectly sized for the bedroom system. Foolish? I think not.

And I've got a 29" Sony XBR910 that is stunning and perfectly sized for the bedroom system. Foolish? I think not.

I said nothing about foolish.... My 40XBR700 is absolutely gorgeous too... but just too large for the bedroom... especially now that we have new furniture in it. We now have a four poster bed and the darn post is right in the middle of the screen if you are laying down. Murphy's Law... :)

I think the foolish reference was to Manatus's comment. :)

I think the foolish reference was to Manatus's comment. :)

You are probably right. :D

Thanks for the info. I tried talking him into at least the Panny 37" plasma edtv but he didn't want to spend that much. He's trying to stay under $800.00. I agree the tubes are huge and he's in a small bedroom but oh well, I warned him....

I think the foolish reference was to Manatus's comment. :)
It was, but I was trying to be oblique and non-confrontational rather than quote Manatus and his "shortsighted foolishness" foolishness. Oh well, cat's outta the bag now. :)

Thanks for the info. I tried talking him into at least the Panny 37" plasma edtv but he didn't want to spend that much. He's trying to stay under $800.00. I agree the tubes are huge and he's in a small bedroom but oh well, I warned him....
HDTV can't be purchased for $800, can it? Not even in a CRT. I'd guess, though, that $800 will buy the best picture with behind-the-curve CRTs. I spent multiples of $800 for my XBR910, but that thinking was still at the root of my decision.

HDTV can't be purchased for $800, can it? Not even in a CRT. I'd guess, though, that $800 will buy the best picture with behind-the-curve CRTs. I spent multiples of $800 for my XBR910, but that thinking was still at the root of my decision.

I recently purchased a 20" Aquos HD from CC for my screened porch for $533. It has a 4:3 screen, so I guess it's technically not true HD but it's definitely 720p when connected to a digital decoder. I don't need HD on the porch but that was such a good price for a great looking TV it was impossible to pass by.

I don't need HD on the porch
Ha ha, why not? HD EVERYWHERE!!! :cool:

HDTV can't be purchased for $800, can it? Not even in a CRT. I'd guess, though, that $800 will buy the best picture with behind-the-curve CRTs. I spent multiples of $800 for my XBR910, but that thinking was still at the root of my decision.Sure they can, at least e-tail. Here (http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php/page_id=80/popup20%5B%5D=10:3/popup16%5B%5D=10:1661/sortby=priceA/qlty=n/popup30%5B%5D=20:133)'s a list of prices for HD resolution CRTs with HDMI inputs. (That Samsung "SlimFit" 30"er seems pretty cool--a tube in a case that's only 16" deep. Of course, the one guy reviewing it at PriceGrabber gave it 1 out of 5 stars :)). The cheapest, which seems to be one of Toshiba's current models, can be had for $529 before tax and shipping; the best price shipped to my ZIP is $635, and 4 vendors can deliver it for $635-$654.

I'm sure that if you shop, you can find CRTs in local retailers for less than $800, cash and carry. (I just checked and I can get a 30" Phillips widescreen HD tube (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-30-Widescreen-Tube-HDTV-30PW9110D-/sem/rpsm/oid/148780/catOid/-12868/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) at Circuit City--in stock at 3 stores in my area--for $699 before taxes. I have to think that I could do even better at one of the discount places).

Sure they can, at least e-tail. Here (http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php/page_id=80/popup20%5B%5D=10:3/popup16%5B%5D=10:1661/sortby=priceA/qlty=n/popup30%5B%5D=20:133)'s a list of prices for HD resolution CRTs with HDMI inputs.
Wow, cool! Prices have really fallen.

First:
I have my Panny 42PX60U connected to a SA 8300HD via a HDMI cable and I get get PQ on both HD and SD but I can not get any audio to the TV. I do have the 8300 audio out connected to my Sony receiver so I can get audio through my surround speakers. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get audio to my TV using the HDMI. Is there a setting on the 8300 that I need to adjust?

Second:
I had my 8300 set for 480p, 480i, and 1080i outputs and I was constantly having to change video source on the TWC remote and the aspect ratio on the TV to get a full screen. I have changed the 8300 output to only 1080i and now "most" channels seem to be in full screen both SD and HD. My question is am I allowing the 8300 to upscale and not the TV. Should I be allowing the TV to upscale and if so how do I set the 8300 so that this can be done easily?

Thanks in advance for any input.

I have a problem with my 8300HD on TWC NYC, and I wonder if this is a common issue:

Quite often, it will fail to record a show that is listed in the Series Manager. It seems to me that the cause has something to do with the calendar, although I am just grasping at straws here. Anyway, it seems like I have to create a new Series recording every once in a while, for every show. This isn't an issue of repeats and new shows, or a change in time slot or anything. In fact, I only realized it when I noticed, having created new 'record entire series' for a couple of shows, that I had two Series Manager listings each for several shows, settings for which were identical.

Is this a common problem with this second-rate software (I'm an old TiVO user, so I am pretty spoiled when it comes to functional DVR software)? Seems like every few weeks now, I have to go through and erase all the useless series and make new ones for the shows I want. Really a bummer time after time, when I only become aware of it because I notice half way through a new episode of a show I like is on but not being recorded.

I've been having this problem a lot lately - can't seem to pinpoint when it started but it's definitely been about 2 weeks now.

I also have a new bug - if I'm recording 2 shows and watching one of them and cancel it in the middle, both recordings stop.

When was NYC updated to 1.8.112 ?

If I knew the right keyword to search for this I would...

I am having the problem where when I first turn on my 8300 and my HDTV, I get the L-shaped black box on my screen. I know this is common, my issue is that it had stopped doing that for several months, then all of a sudden started doing it again yesterday. Also, when I switch inputs on my TV away from the HDMI input, the cable box goes crazy turning on/off repeatedly for 30-60 seconds. Since I don't know what I could have done to inadvertently fix it previously, is there something I can do to fix it now?

These are HDMI issues that are associated with different firmware releases.
They will go away if you use Component Video.

I just noticed that my 8300hd has stopped automatically recording the "live" channel I am currently on.

Is there a way to turn back on this auto recording feature?

Or, is my box defective?

I have Bright House in central Florida.

thanks,
Rick

I've been having this problem a lot lately - can't seem to pinpoint when it started but it's definitely been about 2 weeks now.

I also have a new bug - if I'm recording 2 shows and watching one of them and cancel it in the middle, both recordings stop.

When was NYC updated to 1.8.112 ?

I got a software update early Wed morning. In fact I had a hell of a time getting a centered picture because there was a black band down the center of my Samsung CRT HDTV. Every thing was shifted to the left. Has anyone experienced this before and this was with component connection? The diagnostic screen says 1.8.112 and it says that the SATA 1394 port is active. However it says that HDMI HDCP authorization has failed even though I can use HDMI if I so choose without errors? I don't know if the Dolby Digital problem is corrected yet.

When was NYC updated to 1.8.112 ?
January

I just noticed that my 8300hd has stopped automatically recording the "live" channel I am currently on.

Is there a way to turn back on this auto recording feature? On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.
Or, is my box defective? What makes you say it's not auto-recording ?? Can you not pause or rewind "live" TV ?? Have you tried a hard reboot ?? Otherwise, it's very possible your box is broken.

On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.
What makes you say it's not auto-recording ?? Can you not pause or rewind "live" TV ?? Have you tried a hard reboot ?? Otherwise, it's very possible your box is broken.

Hall,

Yes, I cannot rewind the "live" TV anymore -- it has worked flawlessly in the past.

I wanted to avoid the hard reboot since I will lose my saved recordings on the hard drive -- but I guess that is what I should try next to fix my problem.

If anyone else has any other advice before I do a complete erase of the hard drive, please do let me know.

thanks,
Rick

Hall,

Yes, I cannot rewind the "live" TV anymore -- it has worked flawlessly in the past.

I wanted to avoid the hard reboot since I will lose my saved recordings on the hard drive -- but I guess that is what I should try next to fix my problem.

If anyone else has any other advice before I do a complete erase of the hard drive, please do let me know.

thanks,
Rick

A hard rebott (e.g. pulling the power cord from the DVR) won't affect anything saved on the HD of the DVR.

A hard rebott (e.g. pulling the power cord from the DVR) won't affect anything saved on the HD of the DVR.

Eric,

I have pulled the power cord on my 8300hd a number of times for a few minutes, but I am still having the problem that my 8300hd is not recording "live" tv anymore.

Unless there is some other reset other than pulling the power cord, I guess I will take my box back to Bright House for an exchange.

thanks,
Rick

I have pulled the power cord on my 8300hd a number of times for a few minutes, but I am still having the problem that my 8300hd is not recording "live" tv anymore.The only time I've heard this symptom described by someone using Passport, they'd plugged an external drive into the eSATA connector. The STB continues to work fine when making and playing back recordings, but there's no trick-play buffer for live television viewing anymore.

I doubt that you've done that :).

[QUOTE=hall]On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.[QUOTE]
We should promote asking questions, not bash it, i mean, isn't that what the forum is for? Many users aren't as "technologically literate" as you are and perhaps they don't even know how to access the settings menu. Also, for many STB's, there are "super-secret menus," or at least ones that you cannot get to by following provided documentation.

I just think that asking a question is a GOOD thing around here. Often times it helps many more than just the initial "asker" of the question.

On a different note, I keep seeing "is there a way to..." questions and in just about every case, the answer has been "no". I'm not aware of, and I haven't seen anyone else post otherwise, that there are any super-secret menus or key-presses for the 8300 /w Passport to enable things. Basically, if it isn't under "Settings", "More Settings (A)", it can't be done.
We should promote asking questions, not bash it, i mean, isn't that what the forum is for? Many users aren't as "technologically literate" as you are and perhaps they don't even know how to access the settings menu. Also, for many STB's, there are "super-secret menus," or at least ones that you cannot get to by following provided documentation.

I just think that asking a question is a GOOD thing around here. Often times it helps many more than just the initial "asker" of the question.
Well, twitchee, while you've got a fair concern there, if you (and others) would take the time to read the "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING" notes and got up to speed on forum etiquette, you'd see why continually reposting the same questions is to be avoided if possible. Even hall was quoting himself - and consuming bandwidth :) - with his answer as I know I've seen those exact words from him a few times before. We are all very helpful here - and on other threads - but members need to spend some time with the search function, and not give up when their first search term returns diddly. I've seen questions asked that had been answered a few posts up on the same damn page. While I enjoy helping on this forum, it does take time. And sometimes the obviously ZERO investment in time made by a poster makes me wonder why we should take our time to help.

Continually re-posting the same questions is a large part of what got this thread to 112 pages and is exactly why the next person gives up searching and . . re-posts the same question.

[/rant]

I discovered some very strange and rude behavior of the 8300 (at least with Passport) that users should be aware of, but which I haven't seen mentioned here before:
IF you have the 8300 connected to an HDTV via HDMI cable and you turn the 8300 on, but don't the TV on (I was planning to record something via the Output 2 composite video output, hence, no need to waste lamp hours on my TV), after about 4-5 minutes, the 8300 decides that (per the message it displays) "Your TV does not Support HDCP, use component video outputs instead of HDMI". [HDCP=high definition copy protection protocol] and it shuts down not only HDMI video output but also composite output 2 and S-Video and maybe(?) component video output too. Logically, it should just shut down output via HDMI since the purpose of HDCP is to protect the digital video output of the HDMI port---one wonders if the engineers that design these things every actually use their own products---I'd guess not.
The only way I found to get it to change it's mind is to unplug & replug the 8300's power cord so as to do a soft reboot. Just turning on the TV doesn't fix it and neither does turning the 8300 off with the power button.
Many people on this forum wonder whether they should be using HDMI or component video connections from 8300 to HDTV. The video quality is usually about the same either way, but this is one of several examples of HDMI's tendency to take over the box and do what it wants instead of what you want, which is a good reason to use the component outputs.

With a large screen projection system (I run 133" diagonal) and a properly set up system with perfect pixel mapping to a video processors output, and a full digital path (Cable head end to display) there is a visible difference between component and HDMI (Digital).

Having said that I agree with your comments regarding the behavior of the 8300HD. I think they have FUBAR'ed the HDMI handshake, and with the overall supply chain involving the STB, the Passport software and the Cable companies, I believe it will be a long time before it is correctly operating. Oh yes, we also have version 1.3 of HDMI to worry about too.

In my situation I never turn off the 8300's, the PJ does go to standby, and the Scaler goes to standby, but who knows what evil lurks in the minds of engineers (I am one). For all I know the display characteristics are always available through the scaler in my setup.

The only problem I know have with HDMI is the black L shaped regions which I generally see when I bring the systems out of standby (i.e. "power on", a total misnomer as generally as long as a modern piece of electronics is plugged in, some part of it is powered up and operating.)

Having said that I agree with your comments regarding the behavior of the 8300HD. I think they have FUBAR'ed the HDMI handshake, and with the overall supply chain involving the STB, the Passport software and the Cable companies, I believe it will be a long time before it is correctly operating. Oh yes, we also have version 1.3 of HDMI to worry about too.
It may not be FUBAR, but it's at least FU. :)

Thanks guys for all the feedback on why my 8300hd was failing to pause and rewind live TV.

I switched out the box for a new box today at Bright House and the new box does indeed pause and rewind live TV.

All is now good again.

Rick

Hi all - does the 8300 offer a way to equilize volume b/w programming and commercials? Thanks, I appreciate it.

Even hall was quoting himself - and consuming bandwidth :) - with his answer as I know I've seen those exact words from him a few times before. You noticed ?? :D You're the first to appear to or at least say something. :D

I have to go back only a couple of pages to find my post and copy-n-paste it.

Hi all - does the 8300 offer a way to equilize volume b/w programming and commercials? Thanks, I appreciate it. Press the SETTINGS button on your remote, then press the "A" button for add'l settings. If it's not in there, it's not possible.

Hi all - does the 8300 offer a way to equilize volume b/w programming and commercials? Thanks, I appreciate it.
Only way to "fix" it is for the cable company (for local ad insertion) and the networks (for national ads) to receive complaints from customers like you.
So call them and COMPLAIN....and after a few weeks file a formal complaint with the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html

But note the FCC site is more concerned re George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words....

With a large screen projection system (I run 133" diagonal) and a properly set up system with perfect pixel mapping to a video processors output, and a full digital path (Cable head end to display) there is a visible difference between component and HDMI (Digital).)
Very true. And even without a big screen, I've noticed better black levels with a digital connection.

You noticed ?? :D You're the first to appear to or at least say something. :D

I have to go back only a couple of pages to find my post and copy-n-paste it.
He77, I thought you had it programmed into a macro. :D

Ahh, I see with post #3356, you've "refined" it. ;)

Hi all - does the 8300 offer a way to equilize volume b/w programming and commercials? Thanks, I appreciate it.
Generally, the "volume level" only seems louder because of compression. The loudest parts on commercials are no louder than those in the program, but everything below the loudest is raised so even the quietest sounds are way louder than they would normally be. There's still volume level differences within the commercial, but the volume range is . . compressed. My best guess is that it's done to get the viewer's attention.

And "they" will never "fix" it, because "they" do not see it as broke.

I think you misunderstand the complaint. Here in Phoenix we have one remaining station whose commercial volume goes skyhigh when they are broadcasting a 5.1 program. This is definitely not the same as commercial volumes "seeming" louder, they ARE significantly louder, and the station acknowledges the problem. They are in the process of purchasing a "limiter" to keep non-5.1 commercial volumes under control like the rest of the stations here already do. When they started broadcasting 5.1 audio, the equipment they purchased did not have this limiting capablity, so they have to buy a separate unit.

Re Volume levels, Pepar is right. In the eyes of the money holders, those that pay for air time, it is not broke. They want you to wake up and watch their commercial.

Pepar, it is not only black levels, it is also noise and artifacts. The picture is just sharper.

Re Volume levels, Pepar is right. In the eyes of the money holders, those that pay for air time, it is not broke. They want you to wake up and watch their commercial.

Pepar, it is not only black levels, it is also noise and artifacts. The picture is just sharper.
Prepar is right in the sense that commercials are slightly louder to grab the attention of the viewer, i've noticed that every time i watch TV, but i think their problem in AZ has to do with an error when the station converts non DD 5.1 audio from the commercials to DD 5.1. I don't think the error they are receiving was intended.

Prepar is right in the sense that commercials are slightly louder to grab the attention of the viewer, i've noticed that every time i watch TV, but i think their problem in AZ has to do with an error when the station converts non DD 5.1 audio from the commercials to DD 5.1. I don't think the error they are receiving was intended.

as someone in the ad business i can tell you for a fact that maximum volume is maximum volume. as much as i'd like to, we can not raise our volume above that of the shows. however led zeppelin is going to seem louder then a news announcer.

I guess we'll have to wait to see if Josh125 responds and let's us know if he is just talking about the perceived higher volume of commercials or the very specific problem we have here with the one remaining station. I guess it really doesn't matter all that much since there is nothing that can be done from the 8300 side of things anyway. :)

I agree that the maximum volume is the maximum volume and that is limited. But I believe that the average volume of a commercial is significantly higher than that of the main program.

I agree that the maximum volume is the maximum volume and that is limited. But I believe that the average volume of a commercial is significantly higher than that of the main program.
Yup, i agree, it's not a SET volume, it's a range that they are allowed to braodcast in, and the programs are usually in the middle of that range and the commercials are maxed out.

I think you misunderstand the complaint. Here in Phoenix we have one remaining station whose commercial volume goes skyhigh when they are broadcasting a 5.1 program. This is definitely not the same as commercial volumes "seeming" louder, they ARE significantly louder, and the station acknowledges the problem. They are in the process of purchasing a "limiter" to keep non-5.1 commercial volumes under control like the rest of the stations here already do. When they started broadcasting 5.1 audio, the equipment they purchased did not have this limiting capablity, so they have to buy a separate unit.
__Josh125__'s complaint - in Katy, TX - was with commercials and programming.

Hi guys,

New to this forum so go easy on me. Did a few searches and couldn't find this ..

I just picked up an 8300 from TWCNC (Raleigh, NC). Noticed a slight difference in behavior on this box as compared to my existing Pioneer Voyager. When you press 'info' on the remote on any channel, you're displayed a similar information bar (channel, name of show, duration, etc), but for some reason I can't use the up/down arrow buttons on the remote to view what's on higher or lower channels or the right/left arrows for later/earlier in the day information. I need to press info a second time where I get much more detailed program information (description, etc) where I can actually use the arrow buttons (they do work).

This behavior is different from other SA boxes I've leased as well as the Pioneer Voyager. Is this as designed, is there a configurable option to enable this type of behavior, is there a bug in my box, or am I just nuts? :)

Thanks!

As designed

I have the 8300hd outputting video to my Sony 60" SXRD via HDMI.

The SXRD scales all video input to 1080p.

The question I have is this:

When I am watching a 720p program (like ABC or ESPN) how should I set the video output on the 8300hd for best picture results on my SXRD? 720p output only? or 1080i output only? or both?

For SD programming, how should I set the video output on the 8300hd for best picture on my SXRD?

thanks,
Rick

I have the 8300hd outputting video to my Sony 60" SXRD via HDMI.

The SXRD scales all video input to 1080p.

The question I have is this:

When I am watching a 720p program (like ABC or ESPN) how should I set the video output on the 8300hd for best picture results on my SXRD? 720p output only? or 1080i output only? or both?

For SD programming, how should I set the video output on the 8300hd for best picture on my SXRD?

thanks,
Rick
Let it output in native resolution. So for ABS and ESPN, let it output 720p, and for SD content, let it output 480i (as long as your Sony can handle upscaling 480i). STB's are usually not very good in converting programming from their native resolution to an alternate one. The Sony should be pretty good in converting the program from its native resolution to 1080p, so i would leave the work to the display.

To reinforce what twitchee3 said, the general rule is to let the component that does the best job of scaling do it. In my case there is a video scaler in the chain and the 8300HD's are set up to output whatever resolution the transmission is at, i.e. all possible resolution outputs are enabled.

The less scaling, the better. You don't want the 8300 scaling 720p to 1080i then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And you don't want the 8300 scaling 1080i to 720p then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And you don't want the 8300 scaling 480i/p to 720p or 1080i then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And I don't think the 8300 will output 480i over HDMI (mine won't) so setting the 8300 to output 480p, 720p and 1080i should yield the best results.

The less scaling, the better. You don't want the 8300 scaling 720p to 1080i then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And you don't want the 8300 scaling 1080i to 720p then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And you don't want the 8300 scaling 480i/p to 720p or 1080i then the SXDR scaling to 1080p. And I don't think the 8300 will output 480i over HDMI (mine won't) so setting the 8300 to output 480p, 720p and 1080i should yield the best results.
For what we know about *whatever* scaler is in the 8300HD, I'm not sure I'd even want it to deinterlace 480i.

__Josh125__'s complaint - in Kety, TX - was with commercials and programming.And what is your point? My response dealt with commercials and programming where the volume goes skyhigh for commercials (not just a bit higher) due to a problem with one station's 5.1 setup. How do you know they are not having the same or a similar problem in Kety TX? "Normal" commercial volume being perceived as higher than regular programming volume is not new to digital or HD and my response is just as valid, if not more so, as an explanation of commercials only being perceived as higher simply because they are commercials using the maximum volumes allowed.

For what we know about *whatever* scaler is in the 8300HD, I'm not sure I'd even want it to deinterlace 480i.These boxes actually do an excellent job of scaling 720p to 1080i, but that's going to be one of the most common things required of it, so I'm sure they've tweaked it to the max. 480i to 480p is adequate, but I usually just have it scale everything to 1080i. My television does something quite visually ugly during the switch, though there are things that can be done to compensate fror that (intentionally showing a blank screen at the new resolution for a bit). I haven't tried it in any recent firmware build, so they may have fixed that. No big--the SD resolutions aren't going to be pretty no matter what.

And what is your point? My response dealt with commercials and programming where the volume goes skyhigh for commercials (not just a bit higher) due to a problem with one station's 5.1 setup. How do you know they are not having the same or a similar problem in Kety TX? "Normal" commercial volume being perceived as higher than regular programming volume is not new to digital or HD and my response is just as valid, if not more so, as an explanation of commercials only being perceived as higher simply because they are commercials using the maximum volumes allowed.
My point? The original poster said "Hi all - does the 8300 offer a way to equilize volume b/w programming and commercials? Thanks, I appreciate it." I and others addressed this.

And then you chimed in with "I think you misunderstand the complaint. Here in Phoenix we have one remaining station whose commercial volume goes skyhigh when they are broadcasting a 5.1 program." This may be your complaint, but it wasn't his.

THAT'S MY POINT. :p

These boxes actually do an excellent job of scaling 720p to 1080i, but that's going to be one of the most common things required of it, so I'm sure they've tweaked it to the max. 480i to 480p is adequate, but I usually just have it scale everything to 1080i. My television does something quite visually ugly during the switch, though there are things that can be done to compensate fror that (intentionally showing a blank screen at the new resolution for a bit). I haven't tried it in any recent firmware build, so they may have fixed that. No big--the SD resolutions aren't going to be pretty no matter what.
Hi, Mike. I seem to remember having this exchange before. I don't want to quibble over the job it does for you with your setup, but rather focus on the absence - I think - of information on the circuitry doing the work. Who makes it? How does it compare to more "known" solutions such as Faroudja? I'd like to see a shootout/comparison of the 8300HD and an external scaler. Then we'd have facts and not just opinions, both yours and mine.

:p :p Right back at ya! Actually, neither you nor I have any idea what his specifc complaint is/was, he simply asked if there was a way to control the different volume levels. If it's simply the same old "why are commercial volumes higher than regular programming?", then obviously your and the other responses were as good as any. But why do you feel the need to chasize someone who brings up a different point that may be related to why he asked his question in the first place? Do you live Kety TX? Do you know that they do not have the same issue as the station here in Phoenix? Is your interpretation of why he asked the question the only one there is or are the rest of us allowed to read it differently and provide a different point of view? The goal here is to provide possible solutions to possible causes, not just the solution (or the simple explanation) you offer. If his question is the result of a problem similar to the one here, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't bring it up?

DoubleDaz, pepar
Lets not comment on style of replies. Mine is bad enough. Style is too heavily influenced by current mood and changes too often. How about we just comment on the devices and the device related issues. There are more than enough of those to fill up some pretty long threads.

Barry,

There is nothing wrong with the style of pepar's replies or his comments (except maybe the last one :) ), just that alternate ideas are being put down for no good reason. As I've said, Josh's question may not be related to the problem one remaining station here is having, but what if it is? Doesn't he deserve to know that it may not be as simple as the perceived volume typically associated with commercials?

:p Right back at ya! Actually, neither you nor I have any idea what his specifc complaint is/was, he simply asked if there was a way to control the different volume levels. If it's simply the same old "why are commercial volumes higher than regular programming?", then obviously your and the other responses were as good as any. But why do you feel the need to chasize someone who brings up a different point that may be related to why he asked his question in the first place? Do you live Kety TX? Do you know that they do not have the same issue as the station here in Phoenix? Is your interpretation of why he asked the question the only one there is or are the rest of us allowed to read it differently and provide a different point of view? The goal here is to provide possible solutions to possible causes, not just the solution (or the simple explanation) you offer. If his question is the result of a problem similar to the one here, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't bring it up?
You're right; neither you nor I have/had any idea what his specific complaint was because he was not . . specific. I read nothing beyond his simple query, while you were willing to speculate on the specifics of his issue. Quite fair - and you may be right, but I took exception to your blanket statement that I misunderstood his complaint. And THAT was what I was "chastizing" you for. We can all have different takes on the subject at hand, and different styles of replies, but there are ways of putting forth your thoughts without insulting people. Re-read my post; I did not put down your alternate idea, I stuck out my tongue at you saying I didn't understand.

:)

Style is too heavily influenced by current mood and changes too often.
Isn't THAT the truth! :)

Style is often defined as "The imprint of one's character on their actions"

Style is often defined as "The imprint of one's character on their actions"
Lemme make another quad shot cappucino and think about that . . . :eek: :)

Isn't THAT the truth! :)Well, if that offended you, then I think you have pretty thin skin for someone who has as many posts here as you do. How in the heck is "I THINK you misunderstand" any kind of blanket statement????? And even if it is to you, why not PM me or just say you didn't appreciate it instead of getting snotty, sticking out your tongue, and all the other childish stuff?

Oh well, time to move on. Perhaps Josh will chime in and be more specific, perhaps not. Either way, I'm sure another problem/question is waiting to be discussed. :)

Hi, Mike. I seem to remember having this exchange before. I don't want to quibble over the job it does for you with your setup, but rather focus on the absence - I think - of information on the circuitry doing the work. Who makes it? How does it compare to more "known" solutions such as Faroudja? I'd like to see a shootout/comparison of the 8300HD and an external scaler. Then we'd have facts and not just opinions, both yours and mine.If we discussed this before, it's been a long time and out of my memory :D.

All I know is that ABC, a 720p source, plays on my 1080i CRT RPTV with sparkling quality--I've seen scenes in some of the content that I watch where the amount and clarity of detail was just plain distracting. It has the best PQ of any of the OTA channels rebroadcast by my cable provider, comparable to the best of HDNet and TNT HD, their highest bitrate sources. Fox is also very good--surprisingly good considering it averages about 10 Mbps (pre-encoded to broadcast rates at the network source); better than the typical NBC PQ.

I believe that the SA HD DVRs use one of ATI's Xilleon chipsets for decoding and scaling. ATI may not have the cachet among snooty videophiles that pioneering Faroudja has, but their chipsets are being used in high-definition television and STB products from Hitachi, JVC, Mitsubishi, Pace, Panasonic, Philips, Scientific-Atlanta, Samsung, Sony, TiVo, and Thompson. According to this (http://ir.ati.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105421&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=690881&highlight=), Samsung selected them for a recent line of DLP RPTVs; they've used Faroudja in previous years.

Lemme make another quad shot cappucino and think about that . . . :eek: :)

Besides, it allows certain people to get their post counts up :rolleyes:

I believe that the SA HD DVRs use one of ATI's Xilleon chipsets for decoding and scaling. ATI may not have the cachet among snooty videophiles that pioneering Faroudja has, but their chipsets are being used in high-definition television and STB products from Hitachi, JVC, Mitsubishi, Pace, Panasonic, Philips, Scientific-Atlanta, Samsung, Sony, TiVo, and Thompson. According to this (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=13145), Samsung selected them for a recent line of DLP RPTVs; they've used Faroudja in previous years.
I've used ATI in all of my home computers for years. Excellent products. If that's truly what's in there, then my skepticism is unwarranted (which is an oblique way to say I was wrong). :)

Besides, it allows certain people to get their post counts up :rolleyes:
Looks like you've outed me, Dave. :cool:

I found at least 2 press releases on the SA website announcing use of the ATI Xilleon chipsets back in 2002/2003, specifically in the 3250/4200 at the time, and "vegggas" reported the same in these forums from info he received at CES 2005.

I found at least 2 press releases on the SA website announcing use of the ATI Xilleon chipsets back in 2002/2003, specifically in the 3250/4200 at the time, and "vegggas" reported the same in these forums from info he received at CES 2005.
Someone please prepare my crow with a red sauce and capers. :o

Nice get, Dave.

Thanks, pepar, but all I did was google "Xilleon" and "Scientific Atlanta". ATI's site didn't have the usual list of clients that I expected (or maybe I just didn't look hard enough), but then I remembered "veggas" always reports what he sees at CES and his post from last year showed up in the search.

vegggas reported the things he'd found out about SciAtl stuff at CES '05 in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=492315) thread, and in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4949743&&#post4949743) post says:
The Pace and SA boxes (both 8000 and 8300) both use the ATI Xilleon chipset for decoding and displaying graphics.I did find these references while I was writing my post, but said "I believe" because I was looking for an authoratative press release from either ATI or SA stating that the DVRs use one of the Xilleon STB graphics chips and couldn't find one. With all due respect, I didn't want to offer vegggas' CES 2005 report as "proof", though I did believe it.

Sorry, I got to the table late, but commercial volumes really aren't any louder than Show volumes if you believe this explanation.
It is actually the dynamic range not the actual volume. Kind of a loop hole for commercials to seam louder. Yet it is still controllable and usually is controlled by broadcasters.
The dynamic range is like a garden hose; only so much water can come out at a time. A rain nozzle is like the the Shows (lots of range). The Commercials are more like a Power Nozzle (less range) with a concentrated blast.

But it's like my dad used to tell me, "It's not enough, to not do something wrong; but don't look like you are doing something wrong."

The perceived volume is definitely louder.
I say we just ban Car Dealer Ads. (No Smiley)

I suspect that some of the issues with sound levels really relate to 5.1. First, there may be some level shifts in AV receivers related to 5.1 vs 2.0 (digital) as well as 5.1 vs analog. Also, it is clear that many local stations are not handling 5.1 correctly (for example our local CBS station keeps the 5.1 flag on when broadcasting local programs/commercials with just 2 channels. This has the effect of shutting off the center channel - and with a surround sound system set up for 5.1 OR ProLogic - this does not work well. Finally, the old "rules" relating to analog audio are different for digital. Local stations just getting into DTV may not have figured this all out yet.

I will add, that I've observed that HBO-HD has this stuff figured out pretty well. They mix a lot of 2.0 with 5.1 and seem to handle the audio levels quite well.

Sorry, I got to the table late,
We played your hand for you. :)

For what we know about *whatever* scaler is in the 8300HD, I'm not sure I'd even want it to deinterlace 480i.
Probably true. But since he's using the HDMI output he has no choice to let the 8300 output 480i natively. The 8300 won't allow us to choose 480i output over HDMI. I just wanted to point out that he didn't want the video to end up being scaled two times (once in the 8300 and again in the tv) introducing more false info (and possibly more artifacts) that can softens the picture and blurs detail. Closes he could get to that is passing as much natively through the 8300 (minus 480i natively). ;)

We played your hand for you. :)
And your post count keeps going up. :rolleyes:

Daryl L

I have an 8300HD running into a DVDO VP30 Scaler over HDMI. The 8300HD is set to pass all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) it is transmitted. If I check the scaler's input resolution, the Scaler does report a 480i signal at times, ergo the 8300 must be passing it.

Daryl L

I have an 8300HD running into a DVDO VP30 Scaler over HDMI. The 8300HD is set to pass all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) it is transmitted. If I check the scaler's input resolution, the Scaler does report a 480i signal at times, ergo the 8300 must be passing it.

I will add that depending on your location, few if any SD channels will actually be output at 480i from the 8300. In NYC the local channels and the food network are basically the only true analog channels left and are the only ones output at 480i. Everything else is output at 480p.

So while the 8300 can pass 480i via HDMI it may impact very few channels.

Daryl L

I have an 8300HD running into a DVDO VP30 Scaler over HDMI. The 8300HD is set to pass all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) it is transmitted. If I check the scaler's input resolution, the Scaler does report a 480i signal at times, ergo the 8300 must be passing it.

I would suspect that the scan rates sent over the HDMI connector would be dependent on the data that the HDMI display sends back to the 8300. Remember, that with HDMI there is a two way communication between the sender (8300) and receiver (display - or DVDO scaler in this case) that includes the audio the receiver can handle and also the scan rates that the receiver can handle - in addition to HDCP info. So you will see different behavior with different displays(receivers).

I suspect that some of the issues with sound levels really relate to 5.1. First, there may be some level shifts in AV receivers related to 5.1 vs 2.0 (digital) as well as 5.1 vs analog. Also, it is clear that many local stations are not handling 5.1 correctly (for example our local CBS station keeps the 5.1 flag on when broadcasting local programs/commercials with just 2 channels. This has the effect of shutting off the center channel - and with a surround sound system set up for 5.1 OR ProLogic - this does not work well. Finally, the old "rules" relating to analog audio are different for digital. Local stations just getting into DTV may not have figured this all out yet.

I will add, that I've observed that HBO-HD has this stuff figured out pretty well. They mix a lot of 2.0 with 5.1 and seem to handle the audio levels quite well.
This past weekend I’ve had no center channel on HBO (Sopranos) and ABC (NBA games). Both of these stations were listed as DD 5.1 on my receiver which is hooked up optical and set on Digital mode, via TWCNY. I did have a center channel on TNT – set up the same way- DD 5.1 in digital mode.

I will add that depending on your location, few if any SD channels will actually be output at 480i from the 8300. In NYC the local channels and the food network are basically the only true analog channels left and are the only ones output at 480i. Everything else is output at 480p.

So while the 8300 can pass 480i via HDMI it may impact very few channels.

Eric, I think that this depends more on your set-up than anything. When the cable system digitizes analog channels they are still 480i. TW Rochester here converted to digital for the local SD channels a few months ago. I just checked, and they are still 480i.

This past weekend I’ve had no center channel on HBO (Sopranos) and ABC (NBA games). Both of these stations were listed as DD 5.1 on my receiver which is hooked up optical and set on Digital mode, via TWCNY. I did have a center channel on TNT – set up the same way- DD 5.1 in digital mode.

Interesting, I watched the Sopranos live last night in 5.1 - no center channel issues. I wouldn't think that the local cable system would (or could) do anything to mess that up. I have seen (heard, actually) CBS and NBC mess that up. By that I mean that they were 5.1 with the center channel missing - you couldn't hear ANY dialog (unless "Off Screen"). Was that your situation (no dialog)?

Interesting, I watched the Sopranos live last night in 5.1 - no center channel issues. I wouldn't think that the local cable system would (or could) do anything to mess that up. I have seen (heard, actually) CBS and NBC mess that up. By that I mean that they were 5.1 with the center channel missing - you couldn't hear ANY dialog (unless "Off Screen"). Was that your situation (no dialog)?
Everything fine w/Sopranos last night, too, here in the outpost of York, PA.

Eric, I think that this depends more on your set-up than anything. When the cable system digitizes analog channels they are still 480i. TW Rochester here converted to digital for the local SD channels a few months ago. I just checked, and they are still 480i.

I agree that it depends, but I think it depends on your cable system as opposed to my individual setup. I am virtually positive that in NYC, for whatever reason, almost all of the SD channels are 480p. My display happens to not be able to handle 480i over HDMI anyway so it's not an issue for me, but others in NYC have pointed out similar behavior.

But I guess I misspoke by saying that analog would be 480i and digital would be 480p - not necessarily the case - again depends on your cable system.

Interesting, I watched the Sopranos live last night in 5.1 - no center channel issues. I wouldn't think that the local cable system would (or could) do anything to mess that up. I have seen (heard, actually) CBS and NBC mess that up. By that I mean that they were 5.1 with the center channel missing - you couldn't hear ANY dialog (unless "Off Screen"). Was that your situation (no dialog)?
There was no sound coming from the center channel at all. I also had this problem with the NBA on ABC. The dialogue came from the left and right channels. I switched over to TNT for the NBA game, this was in DD too, no problem. Clean crisp dialogue from the center and full surround sounds from the other channels. :confused:

Why would DD 5.1 work fine on some stations but actually be 2 channel stereo on other stations (while indicating on the receiver that it is DD 5.1)?
Could this be the 8300 flaking out?
I can’t understand how it could be my Denon but I’m open for suggestions.

I would tend to blame the transmission source, the station. They could be encoding a proper DD 5.1 stream, but the center channel might be blank (quiet) because of an equipment malfunction.

This past weekend I’ve had no center channel on HBO (Sopranos) and ABC (NBA games). Both of these stations were listed as DD 5.1 on my receiver which is hooked up optical and set on Digital mode, via TWCNY. I did have a center channel on TNT – set up the same way- DD 5.1 in digital mode.
I could not get Dolby Digital at all during "Elizabeth 1' on Saturday night's broadcast. I had no problem however with the "Sopranos" the next day. Somebody asleep at the switch perhaps?

Local stations need to have the capability to insert local audio in a 5.1 stream - sometimes they (or the networks) screw this up - at least when the center channel is missing. The issue of feeding stereo with the 5.1 flag on, is strictly a local station one.

What puzzles me about the Sopranos experience is that usually HBO, Showtime & etc. are passed directly by the cable system. They do no insertions of commercials, etc. And as 5.1 (or DD 2.0) is an integrated bit stream that is simply directly passed out to the system there is really no opportunity for the local cable system to "mess up".

Digiti, When you say "Dolby Digital" , I assume you mean DD 5.1. "Elizabeth I" was not in 5.1. While Showtime reflects in their on-line schedule what programs have 5.1, HBO only shows that at the beginning of the program. Incidently, "Elizabeth I" was filmed by the BBC. I don't think that they use 5.1 yet for their widescreen broadcasts.

Why would DD 5.1 work fine on some stations but actually be 2 channel stereo on other stations (while indicating on the receiver that it is DD 5.1)?
Could this be the 8300 flaking out?
I can’t understand how it could be my Denon but I’m open for suggestions.
No it's not the 8300 or the Denon - just flaky stations (too cheap to install the proper equipment, or too lazy to properly monitor what they are putting out. :(

Digiti, When you say "Dolby Digital" , I assume you mean DD 5.1. "Elizabeth I" was not in 5.1. While Showtime reflects in their on-line schedule what programs have 5.1, HBO only shows that at the beginning of the program. Incidently, "Elizabeth I" was filmed by the BBC. I don't think that they use 5.1 yet for their widescreen broadcasts.
Elizabethan thinking, for sure.

Digiti, When you say "Dolby Digital" , I assume you mean DD 5.1. "Elizabeth I" was not in 5.1. While Showtime reflects in their on-line schedule what programs have 5.1, HBO only shows that at the beginning of the program. Incidently, "Elizabeth I" was filmed by the BBC. I don't think that they use 5.1 yet for their widescreen broadcasts.

Yes I meant DD 5.1. I did not know the BBC did not use 5.1 but it makes sense. Thanks.

Sorry, I got to the table late, but commercial volumes really aren't any louder than Show volumes if you believe this explanation.
It is actually the dynamic range not the actual volume. Kind of a loop hole for commercials to seam louder. Yet it is still controllable and usually is controlled by broadcasters.
The dynamic range is like a garden hose; only so much water can come out at a time. A rain nozzle is like the the Shows (lots of range). The Commercials are more like a Power Nozzle (less range) with a concentrated blast.

But it's like my dad used to tell me, "It's not enough, to not do something wrong; but don't look like you are doing something wrong."

The perceived volume is definitely louder.
I say we just ban Car Dealer Ads. (No Smiley)
As I discussed in the fol. post, setting a correct DIALNORM value (in order to maintain voice dialog at the same level) is mandatory for DD5.1 digital audio streams.
However, with a few rare exceptions (e.g. HDNET), I have observed the SAME value for DIALNORM for any and all programs and commercials from a particular station.
Ergo, the local broadcasters don't know how to handle DIALNORM so they simply pick a "favorite" setting for everything...shortcircuiting the whole process...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6977377&highlight=dialnorm#post6977377

Sorry, I got to the table late, but commercial volumes really aren't any louder than Show volumes if you believe this explanation.
It is actually the dynamic range not the actual volume. Kind of a loop hole for commercials to seam louder. Yet it is still controllable and usually is controlled by broadcasters.
The dynamic range is like a garden hose; only so much water can come out at a time. A rain nozzle is like the the Shows (lots of range). The Commercials are more like a Power Nozzle (less range) with a concentrated blast.

But it's like my dad used to tell me, "It's not enough, to not do something wrong; but don't look like you are doing something wrong."

The perceived volume is definitely louder.
I say we just ban Car Dealer Ads. (No Smiley)
As I discussed in the fol. post, setting a correct DIALNORM value (in order to maintain voice dialog at the same level) is mandatory for DD5.1 digital audio streams.
However, with a few rare exceptions (e.g. HDNET), I have observed the SAME value for DIALNORM for any and all programs and commercials from a particular station.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6977377&#post6977377

Ergo, the local broadcasters don't know how to handle DIALNORM so they simply pick a "favorite" setting for everything...shortcircuiting the whole process...

I'm using an SA8300HD/DVR box connected by an HDMI cable (video & audio) to the HDTV in my bedroom. Late at night I turn the TV volume down as low as possible, but it's still a little too loud -- disturbs the wife's sleep. So, I went to the settings page in the STB and started reducing the audio output from the 96 level all the way down to 0 and the volume coming from the TV speakers never changed at all. Apparently, the audio output/volume control in the STB doesn't work at all. Anyone else notice this condition? Is this a malfunction or is it by design?
My cable provider is Brighthouse/Orlando, FL.

Daryl L

I have an 8300HD running into a DVDO VP30 Scaler over HDMI. The 8300HD is set to pass all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) it is transmitted. If I check the scaler's input resolution, the Scaler does report a 480i signal at times, ergo the 8300 must be passing it.
Then I can agree that it may not be my 8300 prohibiting 480i output through HDMI. I could well be my Sharp LCD won't except 480i through it's HDMI input and it tells the 8300 this (that it only accepts 480p/720p/1080i) during the handshake. :)

Actually when I first got the LCD last fall and hooked it up to the the 8300 it did allow me to choose 480i output but the LCD only displayed a blank screen. I had to turn to an HD channel to disable 480i output. Hasn't let me choose 480i since. I enable it and hit the A button and it's disable again. :)

I'm using an SA8300HD/DVR box connected by an HDMI cable (video & audio) to the HDTV in my bedroom. Late at night I turn the TV volume down as low as possible, but it's still a little too loud -- disturbs the wife's sleep. So, I went to the settings page in the STB and started reducing the audio output from the 96 level all the way down to 0 and the volume coming from the TV speakers never changed at all. Apparently, the audio output/volume control in the STB doesn't work at all. Anyone else notice this condition? Is this a malfunction or is it by design?
Malfunction by design - I like that. :)

Dumb question perhaps, but did you reduce the record volume or the main audio output?

Why would DD 5.1 work fine on some stations but actually be 2 channel stereo on other stations (while indicating on the receiver that it is DD 5.1)?
Could this be the 8300 flaking out?
I can’t understand how it could be my Denon but I’m open for suggestions.

Does it just indicate Dolby Digital Decoding or actually say 5.1? Dolby Digital is not necessarily 5.1 channels, it can be used for mono and stereo audio as well and still be Dolby Digital.

Malfunction by design - I like that. :)

Dumb question perhaps, but did you reduce the record volume or the main audio output?
Actually it's a good question since we need to be precise in these matters.
I reduced the volume level in the main audio output area, and noticed no change. So, I also tried the same thing in the record volume -- just in case, and noticed no change. Afterwards, I reset the volume levels in each area to 96.

Later today, I'll try the same thing on the HD set in the family room and will report the results here.

Daryl L,

I am not sure of that. I believe the VP30 will tell the source device that the display accepts all resolutions, seeing as it (the VP30) does. The VP30 then scales to whatever output resolution you have specified for the display.

That is, you fix the VP30 output resolution to best match the native resolution of your display ideally achieving a 1:1 pixel mapping between the VP30 output and the display. The display should then do no scaling.

Similarly allowing the source to output all resolutions should cause it never to scale the signal, but the VP30 will adapt to the input resolution and do the scaling as it should.

That is how my set up works.

Hope that helps.

Does it just indicate Dolby Digital Decoding or actually say 5.1? Dolby Digital is not necessarily 5.1 channels, it can be used for mono and stereo audio as well and still be Dolby Digital.
On my Denon receiver it displays as Dolby Digital. I assume this is 5.1 but it appears to be 2 channel stereo. This has been happening frequently on ABC during the NBA games. The center channel has nothing. All of the audio (including dialogue) comes through on the left and right channels. However, while watching basketball on TNT, I’m getting the same indication from the Denon receiver, Dolby Digital but I get perfect 5.1 digital sound. Perfect crisp dialogue from the center and various surround sounds from the other channels

...Later today, I'll try the same thing on the HD set in the family room and will report the results here.

Well, I tried exactly the same volume adjustments on the HDTV in the family room, and again no change occurs in the volume of the TV speakers.
The configuration is the same: SA8300HD-DVR using HDMI to the TV -- though this HDTV is a different model than the one in the bedroom.

When I access the settings for the SA8300 and adjust the audio output "viewing" volume level from 100 down to 0 and vice versa, the volume level coming out of the TV's speakers never changes. I am able to raise or lower the TV speaker volume as you normally would using the remote control.

Surely this is not the way the SA box was intended to work.

Well, I tried exactly the same volume adjustments on the HDTV in the family room, and again no change occurs in the volume of the TV speakers.
The configuration is the same: SA8300HD-DVR using HDMI to the TV -- though this HDTV is a different model than the one in the bedroom.

When I access the settings for the SA8300 and adjust the audio output "viewing" volume level from 100 down to 0 and vice versa, the volume level coming out of the TV's speakers never changes. I am able to raise or lower the TV speaker volume as you normally would using the remote control.

Surely this is not the way the SA box was intended to work.

Thats exactly the way I would expect it to work. I would expect the audio sent downstream to the TV over HDMI to be (or at least could be) basically the same as what is coming out the coax or optical outputs. HDMI allows encoded audio like DD5.1 to be transmitted. If the 8300 supported DD 5.1 over HDMI (I dont know if it does or not though), controlling the volume with the 8300 would require it to decode 5.1, attenuate it and then re-encode it. Kinda ugly.

The 8300HD definately sends DD 5.1 over the HDMI link. I see it being reported as such by my Audio processor. Altering the volume in the 8300 would require a re-encoding of the audio stream so it would seem logical that the volume setting in the 8300 only affects the analog outputs. Also if a device has an HDMI connection and accepts audio, it probably will have the necessary capability to control the volume.

Slight point, In the HDCP specification, upstream means closer to the source (e.g. DVR) in the HDMI world. Sinks (e.g. HDTV's) are downstream, sources are upstream and repeaters sit in the stream, and we all know what misbehaved children do in the stream.

The 8300HD definately sends DD 5.1 over the HDMI link. I see it being reported as such by my Audio processor. Altering the volume in the 8300 would require a re-encoding of the audio stream so it would seem logical that the volume setting in the 8300 only affects the analog outputs. Also if a device has an HDMI connection and accepts audio, it probably will have the necessary capability to control the volume.

Slight point, In the HDCP specification, upstream means closer to the source (e.g. DVR) in the HDMI world. Sinks (e.g. HDTV's) are downstream, sources are upstream and repeaters sit in the stream, and we all know what misbehaved children do in the stream.

I understand your points, but from my analog brain, I'm seeing this as a simple, everyday volume amplitude function for the SA8300. If I send the SA's audio output as dolby digital (vs HDMI) to my A/V receiver, I can then routinely adjust the volume from my surround sound speakers via the receiver's volume control function. My point is: Shouldn't this (HDMI/dolby digital) be a simple volume control function for the SA8300 much like it is for the A/V receiver? I welcome and defer to your wisdom and experience in this technical area. Maybe I'm just expecting too much from the SA box. Thanks folks.

HDMI has an ancillary distributed control protocol. So long as all the devices are cognizant of it, the STB could theoretically discover the HDMI-equiped receiver in the loop and pass commands to it like volume-up and volume-down

In this, the infancy of HDMI, it is a bit much to expect all equipment to have implemented this.

sgooter,

It is not really an HDMI related problem. Dolby Digital and DTS are both encoded formats having multichannel audio represented in a single stream of bits that just represent numbers. In that view what represents volume? Do we just decrease all the numbers by a given amount? What needs to be done is to decode the stream, adjust the "volume" by manipulating some of the numbers and then put it all back together so that it was what it was before but with a changed "volume". With full blown HDMI we (the SA8300) might be able to tell the component that can do this (the receiver or audio processor that will decode the encoded stream) to adjust the volume in some manner (e.g. reduce it 5 dB). This would be additional control data that is sent on the control channel of the multiple HDMI streams and would be a command to the audio processor to do the work.

The preceeding was the point michealscott was making

Hope that helps. I grew up (spent my entire work life) in the digital world but still tend to think analog.

I believe it's been pointed out before in other threads that the 8300's volume control does not affect digital audio, only analog via composite or L-R RCA.

On my Denon receiver it displays as Dolby Digital. I assume this is 5.1 but it appears to be 2 channel stereo. This has been happening frequently on ABC during the NBA games. The center channel has nothing. All of the audio (including dialogue) comes through on the left and right channels. However, while watching basketball on TNT, I’m getting the same indication from the Denon receiver, Dolby Digital but I get perfect 5.1 digital sound. Perfect crisp dialogue from the center and various surround sounds from the other channels

Larry,

I believe your concern is not caused by your hardware but the station. WABC-DT and WCBS-DT broadcast all their programs indicating 5.1-channel sound, but for most programs, those that have only stereo sound, they only place the sound in the left and right channels, leaving the remaining four channels silent. This is incorrectly constructed 5.1-channel sound. For me this gives an echoey sound that doesn't sound very good. I always switch to analog input on my Denon receiver so that ProLogic can derive a center and surround channels. Only those network programs, mostly prime time dramas, that actually have 5.1-channel sound will have the correct sound distribution. In addition, it appears that the NBC network switched to 5.1-channel sound for all broadcasts just before the Olympics started. Programs such as the Tonight Show and Conan O'Brien are stereo and do not sound right in fake 5.1-channel sound. I wish these channels would be professional and handle the sound correctly! Virtually all the other channels handle the sound correctly, switching to 5.1-channels only when that is correct.

Cynthia

I am not sure I agree with the above. My audio processor shows what the active channels are in a dolby stream. I see 5.1 for the main program portions on CBS, NBC, ABC when they broadcast as such and 2.0 for the commercials. This sounds logical to me. I was watching NCIS and I clearly had 5.1 channels of Audio during the program and 2.0 during commercials.

FWIW, we had simlar problems here until they figured out how all this stuff works. Oftentimes their solution was to simply leave the 5.1 flag set even though they knew the program was not 5.1. We had the tinny sound, no center channel, echoing, etc. The one remaining problem we have with one station is a static "pop" when going to/from commercials. They have lessened how sharp the pop is, but it's still there and they continue to work on solutions. Some of the problems were network related, incompatability between what was being sent and how the local equipment was dealing with it. Once the offending piece of equipment was replaced, the problems went away. The remaiing problem is with our oldest HD station and they are replacing equipment as fast as the budget allows.

I am not sure I agree with the above. My audio processor shows what the active channels are in a dolby stream. I see 5.1 for the main program portions on CBS, NBC, ABC when they broadcast as such and 2.0 for the commercials. This sounds logical to me. I was watching NCIS and I clearly had 5.1 channels of Audio during the program and 2.0 during commercials.

My setup works the same way I believe. Receiver automatically switches from DD5.1 to DPL II during most commercials or other material that isn't true DD5.1.

While most of you guys (and gals) are talking about NYC, I'm here to tell you that some stations in the country have definately been messing up the 5.1 as Cynthia describes. In many cases, they apparently have not invested in the proper equipment, or have just taken a lazy approach to switching audio. I've even noticed that some cable networks have been doing the same thing. I have this problem with "Monk" on UniversalHD. Program is obviously just 2 channel, but UniversalHD has 5.1 flag on - thus the sound quality stinks as Cynthia describes. When I switch my Yamaha receiver to take the analog sound (ProLogic II) then everything is OK.

While most of you guys (and gals) are talking about NYC, I'm here to tell you that some stations in the country have definately been messing up the 5.1 as Cynthia describes. In many cases, they apparently have not invested in the proper equipment, or have just taken a lazy approach to switching audio. I've even noticed that some cable networks have been doing the same thing. I have this problem with "Monk" on UniversalHD. Program is obviously just 2 channel, but UniversalHD has 5.1 flag on - thus the sound quality stinks as Cynthia describes. When I switch my Yamaha receiver to take the analog sound (ProLogic II) then everything is OK.
Yep... I only switch to DD 5.1 on specific programs for many reasons... I get pretty good PLII on most and then just change to DD when I specifically desire, then change back, my sound like a hassle but actually less .... less hassles especially with the whole HDCP handshake, power on, reboot stuff... yep they are all clearly related in my setup/view.

While most of you guys (and gals) are talking about NYC, I'm here to tell you that some stations in the country have definately been messing up the 5.1 as Cynthia describes. In many cases, they apparently have not invested in the proper equipment, or have just taken a lazy approach to switching audio. I've even noticed that some cable networks have been doing the same thing. I have this problem with "Monk" on UniversalHD. Program is obviously just 2 channel, but UniversalHD has 5.1 flag on - thus the sound quality stinks as Cynthia describes. When I switch my Yamaha receiver to take the analog sound (ProLogic II) then everything is OK.

Well I stand corrected. I checked CBS HD and ABC HD today around 8pm, and during commercials neither channel output any sound from the center channel (just the left and right channels) even though my AVR showed DD5.1 (I double checked the receiver and it definitely indicated DD5.1 as opposed to DD2.0, which I've seen before). During the actual show on ABC (I think it was Alias) the center channel kicked in properly. On CBS, the Amazing Race was on, and even during the actual show there was no sound from the center channel - maybe that's not supposed to be a 5.1 show. When I played back a recorded episode of CSI Miami from CBS this past Monday, the show broadcast in 5.1 and during the commericals the AVR reverted to DPL II, the way it should. So it's possible this problem just started and everything was fine on Monday, or maybe true 5.1 programs on CBS HD are handled properly for both the show and commercials, while 2.0 programs mess up both the show and the commercials. Other channels, including HBO HD and Showtime HD worked properly.

Kind of confused but I guess the behavior is consistent w/ what other people have described.

Which all goes to prove that big city (NYC) stations don't care about doing it right than small city (Rochester, NY) stations.

You would think that this sort of stuff would be a violation of Dolby Labs license for use of the 5.1 system! (But maybe if they are collecting their license fees - they DON'T CARE either).

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I have a NYC 8300 cable box and a Runco CW-50. I've figured out that TW has suppressed much of the boxes user-management features, so I can't get the box to output anything besides 1080i, so I've got an HDMI to DVI cable running from the box to the Runco, and that's fine for HD. Here's my question - if I used a non-HD cable box as well, and ran that into the Runco's component inputs (which only accept 480i!) to take advantage of the Runco's scaler which upconverts 480i to 720p would I improve the SD picture compared to just watching "1080i" SD from the 8300 over the HDMI to DVI channel? Thanks in advance for any advice.

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7561657&&#post7561657) over on "SATA - It Works!" doesn't bode well for external drives.

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7561657&&#post7561657) over on "SATA - It Works!" doesn't bode well for external drives.External drive support would be nice, but I can see from the beginning where it'd be a maintenance hassle for the cable providers--too many techie customers would cobble together their own external SATA 2 drive systems which would be ever so slightly incompatible. I can see where it might work with carefully verified cable-company provided drives (they're supposed to be able to hit the boxes remotely to enable or disable the feature), but nothing would stop a sub from replacing the drive with something larger off-the-shelf once the leased one was installed.

Give me a 300 GB system and I'll be reasonably satisfied; I'm not interested in archiving, but I'd like a little less pressure to delete things. It's a pity that SA didn't design these with dual drive bays, like TiVo.

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7561657&&#post7561657) over on "SATA - It Works!" doesn't bode well for external drives.

Repeating what that post says in summary,

Adios external drives, too many problems.

Solution from Maxtor is to stop selling the drives as SA compatible, and SA to stop providing the external connection, with future SA boxes going to larger internal drives.

**************** As I see it the trouble isn't with the drive being external, but the SA software maybe being tuned to work with a specific drive characteristics, or a single drive.

Repeating what that post says in summary,

Adios external drives, too many problems.

Solution from Maxtor is to stop selling the drives as SA compatible, and SA to stop providing the external connection, with future SA boxes going to larger internal drives.

**************** As I see it the trouble isn't with the drive being external, but the SA software maybe being tuned to work with a specific drive characteristics, or a single drive.
Again, perhaps Aptiv's solution will be more robust and NOT cause problems for the cablecos. We'll see. We are closing in on the time when my contact said Aptiv told him they would have code with SATA support available for testing.

A few weeks ago there was some discussion in the external drive thread (I think it was that one) about the potential move to a remote (or virtual) DVR in the future. I would suspect that we are more likely to see that than the cable companies investing in SA boxes with even larger HDs.

My settings screen shows

Audio 92 Record 92

What does that mean? Do nothing to digital signals, but play and record analog at reduced volume? Should I set both to whatever the max setting is?

I don't have HDMI anything, but use both the digital out and L/R analog to my reciever which is set in some auto mode to pick the best. No sound goes to the TV (which isn't totally desirable, but thats how its set up).

Sound level between stations is a REAL problem, off by maybe 10 db so low channels can barely be heard, and loud channels are too loud. And wow do I hate channels that exercise my subwoofer via theme music or commercials. I am not complaining now about commercials vs programming, but channel to channel levels. Salt in the wound is that the ONE flaw with my old Kenwood 410 reciever is that it has a VERY unreliable battery chomping RF remote that we now just never use, so its back and forth to the volume knob or live with barely hearing and booming.

I don't like the idea of a remote virtual DVR, but that just reflects my general pleasure with anything from Cable companies or Microsoft (not that MS is in this, but I hate them in my spare time), but I am not sure if my concerns might be false. If everything on cable was available for say 30 days as video on demand, and the terms were not too nasty, that could be very nice.

OTOH I don't see all the players who want a taste of the profits from DVR boxes just walking away. Some kind of local DVR is still needed for people with sources other than cable like OTA or Satellite, or who want longer term storage than cable may provide. That kind of box is fairly certain to exist, maybe stand alone like Tivo or SA DVRs, maybe integrated with the display like those RCA boxes.

What is up for grabs are archival backup and placeshifting (slingbox style).

Its a sure bet whichever direction it goes in, our $$$ will be following.

Again, perhaps Aptiv's solution will be more robust and NOT cause problems for the cablecos. We'll see. We are closing in on the time when my contact said Aptiv told him they would have code with SATA support available for testing.I'm pretty sure that there is no "robust" solution that will allow the use of arbitrary drives and there is no way to prevent customers from using them. And if the cable providers are actually asking for the removal of the feature and manufacturers are ceasing production of drives specially intended for the purpose, I kind of doubt that the Aptiv solution will see the light of day. We'll see.

As for the "remote DVR" concept, I don't expect that it will perform any better than VOD, and VOD controls are crude. On my TWC system, there's one speed of forward and reverse, and it's too damn fast. It's also sluggish in responding to the controls at all. It's okay for movies, since I tend to watch them from beginning to end with no more trick-play than the occasional PAUSE. It would not be acceptable for watching recordings of television, where I want to zap the ads.

If my system moves to that, I'll be forced to buy a TiVo S3 and they can say goodbye to my couple of hundred dollars a year in STB lease and DVR service fees. Of course, probably not that many customers will choose to go that way; probably not enough to keep them from coming out ahead with the elimination of truck rolls to deal with subscriber DVR problems.

I'm pretty sure that there is no "robust" solution that will allow the use of arbitrary drives and there is no way to prevent customers from using them. And if the cable providers are actually asking for the removal of the feature and manufacturers are ceasing production of drives specially intended for the purpose, I kind of doubt that the Aptiv solution will see the light of day. We'll see.

As for the "remote DVR" concept, I don't expect that it will perform any better than VOD, and VOD controls are crude. On my TWC system, there's one speed of forward and reverse, and it's too damn fast. It's also sluggish in responding to the controls at all. It's okay for movies, since I tend to watch them from beginning to end with no more trick-play than the occasional PAUSE. It would not be acceptable for watching recordings of television, where I want to zap the ads.

If my system moves to that, I'll be forced to buy a TiVo S3 and they can say goodbye to my couple of hundred dollars a year in STB lease and DVR service fees. Of course, probably not that many customers will choose to go that way; probably not enough to keep them from coming out ahead with the elimination of truck rolls to deal with subscriber DVR problems.

My biggest problem with VOD is getting the damn thing to work at all when bandwidth is being sucked out on a busy night. It's more annoying when you pause for whatever reason and find that if you wait too long you can't get back into the movie. That kind of defeats the concept unless they start renaming it Video Too Much In Demand.

Of course I'm basing this experience using Passport. Could the TW Navigator IPG which they apparently have in development to replace Passport be an improvement that would make it doable?

Of course I'm basing this experience using Passport. Could the TW Navigator IPG which they apparently have in development to replace Passport be an improvement that would make it doable?Are you speaking about the OCAP Navigator that they've been developing? That's only going to be applicable to CableCARD 2 products ("Interactive Digital Cable Ready" devices). They FCC is requiring the cable industry to use CableCARDs for conditional access in new boxes which they deploy (it'll give them a reason to work harder on making CableCARD work properly); in order to do that, they have to use the OpenCable Applications Platform (OCAP) in their boxes. OCAP is a Java-based environment in which to run custom applications, like Interactive Program Guide, Video On Demand and Impulse Pay-Per-View; the possibilities are almost limitless.

TWC has apparently tested their OCAP IPG with new Samsung OCAP-compliant televisions. I don't know what their plan for rolling it out is.

A remote DVR doesn't mean the Cable box might not still have some level of local storage, drives less than 80 GB must be dirt cheap oem by now, and local buffering would hide all sorts of delivery time related problems and reduce bandwidth requirements.

OTOH maybe cablecard will really open things up to third parties.

DVR not only has me hooked already, I know I am going to like it more as guides etc adapt to support what it can do.

A remote DVR doesn't mean the Cable box might not still have some level of local storage, drives less than 80 GB must be dirt cheap oem by now, and local buffering would hide all sorts of delivery time related problems and reduce bandwidth requirements.I've personally always thought that they should sell HD IPPV on cable that way--allow it to be recorded to the DVR and set it up to be automatically deleted a certain amount of time after you first press PLAY. However, VOD (SD or HD) doesn't use local storage and can be played with non-DVR boxes. One problem with trying to use local storage is that you should be able to immediately fast-forward; if they're going to locally buffer it when you ask to play it, that won't work without a significant initial delay.

Something which would probably speed things up is if DVR recordings were stored in neighborhood distribution boxes. I think that control latency is possibly due to streaming VOD programs from the headend.

I'm pretty sure that there is no "robust" solution that will allow the use of arbitrary drives and there is no way to prevent customers from using them. And if the cable providers are actually asking for the removal of the feature and manufacturers are ceasing production of drives specially intended for the purpose, I kind of doubt that the Aptiv solution will see the light of day. We'll see.
It was 3/28 that Aptiv told my contact "six weeks" and we're four weeks into that period. In two weeks I'll tickle him again on it.

Are you speaking about the OCAP Navigator that they've been developing? That's only going to be applicable to CableCARD 2 products ("Interactive Digital Cable Ready" devices). They FCC is requiring the cable industry to use CableCARDs for conditional access in new boxes which they deploy (it'll give them a reason to work harder on making CableCARD work properly); in order to do that, they have to use the OpenCable Applications Platform (OCAP) in their boxes. OCAP is a Java-based environment in which to run custom applications, like Interactive Program Guide, Video On Demand and Impulse Pay-Per-View; the possibilities are almost limitless.

TWC has apparently tested their OCAP IPG with new Samsung OCAP-compliant televisions. I don't know what their plan for rolling it out is.


that sounds like it, although I remember reading something about it being planned to replace the Passport software completely.

The last thing I read was this:
http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6325095

which indicates a rollout later this year.

Given it 's heavy emphasis on VOD services, it just has to improve the VOD experience we currently get. It would be crazy otherwise.

... One problem with trying to use local storage is that you should be able to immediately fast-forward; if they're going to locally buffer it when you ask to play it, that won't work without a significant initial delay...They could just put the previews and non-FF commercials back on the front end to cover the D/L time, since that is a fixed time-sink anyway.

v/r,
C-F

A remote DVR doesn't mean the Cable box might not still have some level of local storage, drives less than 80 GB must be dirt cheap oem by now, and local buffering would hide all sorts of delivery time related problems and reduce bandwidth requirements.


But isn't the main motivation for rolling out remote DVR on the cablecos part to reduce the cost of repairing DVRs which break all the time?

that sounds like it, although I remember reading something about it being planned to replace the Passport software completely.

The last thing I read was this:
http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6325095

which indicates a rollout later this year.

Given it 's heavy emphasis on VOD services, it just has to improve the VOD experience we currently get. It would be crazy otherwise.Interesting. Here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/toc-bbdirect/2004/20040519.html)'s an article with a little more information. It sounds as if they plan to install an OCAP platform on all of their existing boxes, and that they will initially mirror the Passport and SARA IPGs in use on them with OCAP versions thereof, with, I presume, their new "Enhanced TV (http://www.pbs.org/opb/crashcourse/enhanced_tv/)" features added (TWCs features sound as though they're all about integrating VOD with the linear channels). In the future, they might go to their own new IPG. In any case, this will initially be done on existing, non-CableCARD 2 equipment with built-in proprietary conditional access.

What's the thinking on MPEG4 quality-wise vis-a-vis MPEG2 and how much will it allow SAT to improve PQ? PQ was always my stumbling block in moving to DBS and I'm hoping MPEG4 changes that and puts more pressure on cable to give us features that we realy want.

- temporarily at The Venetian for a trade show -

I haven't heard of anyone who was going to MPEG-4 that they were doing so because it increased quality. They are going that way because it takes about half the bit rate of MPEG-2 for the SAME QUALITY! Of course they COULD use the same bit rate and get better quality - but I do not believe that anyone is planning on that.

I haven't heard of anyone who was going to MPEG-4 that they were doing so because it increased quality. They are going that way because it takes about half the bit rate of MPEG-2 for the SAME QUALITY! Of course they COULD use the same bit rate and get better quality - but I do not believe that anyone is planning on that.
Yeah, what was I smoking? :D They'll stuff more channels into the stream and there goes any possible PQ increase and lessening of tiling.

- temporarily at The Venetian for a trade show -

Interesting. Here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/toc-bbdirect/2004/20040519.html)'s an article with a little more information. It sounds as if they plan to install an OCAP platform on all of their existing boxes, and that they will initially mirror the Passport and SARA IPGs in use on them with OCAP versions thereof, with, I presume, their new "Enhanced TV (http://www.pbs.org/opb/crashcourse/enhanced_tv/)" features added (TWCs features sound as though they're all about integrating VOD with the linear channels). In the future, they might go to their own new IPG. In any case, this will initially be done on existing, non-CableCARD 2 equipment with built-in proprietary conditional access.

I remember that article which jogged my memory about seeing somethiing about the end of the MystroTV development. I found some more recent info over at ITVT, and it seems that the new Time Warner IPG will be using MachBlue technology.

Here's an excerpt from the badly formatted article over at:
http://blog.itvt.com/my_weblog/2006/04/06/index.html

Bluestreak Network will be demo'ing applications based on the TV and mobile versions of its flagship product, MachBlue. Both versions of MachBlue are based on an optimized implementation of Flash and ActionScript, and are designed to support highly demanding interactive applications, such as games, multimedia portals, and EPG's. Bluestreak claims that the entire platform operates in less than 1MB of memory, and allows products and services authored in Flash to run on set-top boxes and mobile phones with a consistent look-and-feel.

Among other things, the he company will be showing: --Time Warner Cable's new digital navigator. The MSO has licensed MachBlue as the core component of the navigator, which will be deployed in all its divisions across the US. The navigator will be supported by Bluestreak's MachBlue Studio authoring tools, which allow the development of Flash-based applications on digital set-tops.

A quick scan around ITVT reveals some interesting looking IPTV screens from Time Warner. It's going to be interesting to see what happens later in the year to Passport if they are planning to roll this out completely. Maybe this is why they are not rushing to fix any of the current passport issues.

http://www.itvt.com/Bluestreak-MachBlue-2006-TWC.jpg

I've personally always thought that they should sell HD IPPV on cable that way--allow it to be recorded to the DVR and set it up to be automatically deleted a certain amount of time after you first press PLAY. However, VOD (SD or HD) doesn't use local storage and can be played with non-DVR boxes. One problem with trying to use local storage is that you should be able to immediately fast-forward; if they're going to locally buffer it when you ask to play it, that won't work without a significant initial delay.

Something which would probably speed things up is if DVR recordings were stored in neighborhood distribution boxes. I think that control latency is possibly due to streaming VOD programs from the headend.

If you have local buffering, you can dump the content at low priority and no worries on latency issues. Fast forward would be limited for a few minutes, but I deal with that all the time right now, ie Sunday on West Wing, we watched the intro live, hit pause, and fixed a hot dog, and had enough time buffered to skip commercials for the rest of the show.

Fact is for me, and I think many others if Cable won't provide a cheap local DVR function, I will get it from a third party, TIVO etc.

What concerns me more is that as DVR function becomes more common, skipping commercials and previews, etc., will be blocked.

But isn't the main motivation for rolling out remote DVR on the cablecos part to reduce the cost of repairing DVRs which break all the time?

More like truck rolls on boxes that work exactly as TW intends, but customers have set up wrong etc. Its the modern world, customer support exceeds product cost. ;( Just because the hardware is remote doesn't mean the customer side won't have just a fubar a setup as it does now (no change at all on connections, just parts we don't see get moved)

To be sure its a profit issue for the cablecos, they see remote DVR as lower cost to them, same charge to us, but I think that may have more than a few caveats in practical terms.

1) What is the minimum hardware going to be for a set top box?

2) What is the minimum hardware going to be for a Premium STB like a HD user is going to want? Whats the cost to make that box a DVR or local buffer?

3) What is the competition going to be offering?

4) How many different kinds of boxes will the cablecos want to support?

*************************** Wild guess on my part ....

All in ONE box, DVR box with two more ports RJ11 for phone, RJ45 for network.

More like truck rolls on boxes that work exactly as TW intends, but customers have set up wrong etc. Its the modern world, customer support exceeds product cost. ;( Just because the hardware is remote doesn't mean the customer side won't have just a fubar a setup as it does now (no change at all on connections, just parts we don't see get moved)

To be sure its a profit issue for the cablecos, they see remote DVR as lower cost to them, same charge to us, but I think that may have more than a few caveats in practical terms.

1) What is the minimum hardware going to be for a set top box?

2) What is the minimum hardware going to be for a Premium STB like a HD user is going to want? Whats the cost to make that box a DVR or local buffer?

3) What is the competition going to be offering?

4) How many different kinds of boxes will the cablecos want to support?

*************************** Wild guess on my part ....

All in ONE box, DVR box with two more ports RJ11 for phone, RJ45 for network.


I don't think the cablecos pay as much attention to the "premium" user as we would like. If they did we would have more HD channels.

There is company for sale right now that repairs the STBs for virtually all of the major cablecos in the country (sci atlanta and motorola boxes). They make most of their money (and we're talking lots of money) from DVR breakdowns which happen way more frequently than regular digital boxes.

I don't disagree that the cablecos still need to spend money to roll the trucks but it's the repair costs that they want to cut down on.

ITVT ran an interview with Jim Chiddix expaling their previous attempts at Network PVRs on the MystroTV software and the reason it was never implemented back in 2004.

"Storing programming on a giant server, so that it was available instantly on demand, and so that people could pause live TV, restart shows and do all that standard DVR stuff, was a fascinating technological challenge that meant that there were lots of backend systems to build and client work to do on the set-top box," he said. "But we were able essentially to create a service that could be offered on any 2-way digital set-top box ever deployed on any cable system. However, the catch was that to make copies of programs on the headend server, you must have a copyright license for every piece of content. Otherwise, you're infringing on copyrights, which is a bad thing and the penalties are very stern. We made a lot of progress, and we got a system up and running in a trial. We actually got rights to a lot of programming for the trial, but the ultimate conclusion at Time Warner was that the rights were just going to be a really big problem. They had to get on with rolling out DVR's, which was an expensive project. So they decided to curtail the funding." While Time Warner Cable had been aware that securing programming rights for a headend-driven PVR system might prove difficult, Chiddix said, the MSO had originally believed that it could convince programmers that MystroTV would provide them with new advertising technologies and help counter the threat presented to their programming rights by DVR boxes and other recording equipment at the consumer premises: "The theory was that we could craft a business model that would be good for content owners and programmers," he explained. "Our vision was that, in return for programming rights, programmers would get access to tools on this big server that would allow them to do targeted advertising. At the same time, we were aware that programmers are worried about the proliferation of DVR's at the consumer premises, which allow people to skip commercials and which therefore subvert their advertising model and undermine the financial foundation of their business. So we thought that they would be attracted to our technology because it would allow them to maintain the chain of rights and to avoid having copies of their programming lying around on people's hard drives and personal computers."

Interesting info at that ITVT site.

http://www.labitv.futuro.usp.br/noticia_cont.jsp?ln_n_id=3026

If you have local buffering, you can dump the content at low priority and no worries on latency issues. Fast forward would be limited for a few minutes, but I deal with that all the time right now, ie Sunday on West Wing, we watched the intro live, hit pause, and fixed a hot dog, and had enough time buffered to skip commercials for the rest of the show.Sorry, but having to wait at all before the program starts before I can fast forward to the end of it makes it not a DVR recording. In any case, if a recording of an HD program were accessed that way and you tried to download it to local storage in greater than realtime, you'd have to allocate something significantly greater than the realtime bitrate to the task; say the program ran originally at 18 Mbps--that's already more than 3 times my 5 Mbps cable modem bitrate and you'd need more than that to develop a local buffer ahead while watching it, allocated individually to possibly thousands of homes watching DVR recordings.

If I fall asleep on a one hour program sometime during the last 20 minutes (or whatever) then I need an immediate ability to fast-forward through the program to locate where it was that I nodded off. I don't want to have to wait until the first 40 minutes has been downloaded to do that.

ITVT ran an interview with Jim Chiddix expaling their previous attempts at Network PVRs on the MystroTV software and the reason it was never implemented back in 2004.



Interesting info at that ITVT site.

http://www.labitv.futuro.usp.br/noticia_cont.jsp?ln_n_id=3026

Well the new remote DVRs that Cablevision is planning on rolling out get around the right issue by requiring that each user record their own copy of every show on the server. In other words, if 50,000 people record CSI, there will be 50,000 copies of it on the server vs. say 1,000 that 50,000 people could access at various points in time. Obviously requires a lot more storage space but doesn't violate any copyrights.

Well the new remote DVRs that Cablevision is planning on rolling out get around the right issue by requiring that each user record their own copy of every show on the server. In other words, if 50,000 people record CSI, there will be 50,000 copies of it on the server vs. say 1,000 that 50,000 people could access at various points in time. Obviously requires a lot more storage space but doesn't violate any copyrights.
Correct, but STUPID STUPID STUPID. Why does the entertainments industry insist on making things so much more difficult when in many cases, such as this one, it will benefit them in NO WAY AT ALL, they just must enforce these rules on ALL instances, due to the "technicalities."

Correct, but STUPID STUPID STUPID. Why does the entertainments industry insist on making things so much more difficult when in many cases, such as this one, it will benefit them in NO WAY AT ALL, they just must enforce these rules on ALL instances, due to the "technicalities."Copyright law is hardly "a technicality". I really don't think that the copyright holders of television programming can give carte blanche to the cable industry to record their programming centrally and redistribute it on demand. I'm not even sure that the networks hold copyright on all of their programming; they produce a lot of it themselves these days, but some of it must be purchased by them for broadcast in a prescribed fashion.

There have been attempts at this in the past. I forget the name, but there's been at least one website with a subscription service which would record television programs for you. That site (or sites) was shut down after suit was brought by the networks.

In any case, (if the control latency issue is solved) it's still a tremendous improvement over those same 50,000 people making recordings on 50,000 separate HDDs located in 50,000 homes which have to be serviced in those homes. If the recordings are made on centrally located servers, they can be far more resistant to loss of data and repairs are much more easily and cheaply done at a fixed location.

Correct, but STUPID STUPID STUPID. Why does the entertainments industry insist on making things so much more difficult when in many cases, such as this one, it will benefit them in NO WAY AT ALL, they just must enforce these rules on ALL instances, due to the "technicalities."
Ah twtchee, it's good to see that someone else has picked up my role of angry poster. :)

- temporarily at The Venetian for a trade show -

Whatever, i don't see this being an issue in the near future, as the control latency of VOD is RIDICULOUS, and at no time will i trade in my HD DVR's until a service such as this has overwhelming advantages, and yes a huge increase in storage capacity is one of those. I don't care if they have to tie me down to take my DVR's, i'm keeping them for a while, until they break or something new comes along that i like better. After all, i'm the consumer, i'm always right. ;) :rolleyes:

Whatever, i don't see this being an issue in the near future, as the control latency of VOD is RIDICULOUS, and at no time will i trade in my HD DVR's until a service such as this has overwhelming advantages, and yes a huge increase in storage capacity is one of those. I don't care if they have to tie me down to take my DVR's, i'm keeping them for a while, until they break or something new comes along that i like better. After all, i'm the consumer, i'm always right. ;) :rolleyes:
I'm with you 200%, but we better hope that hundreds of thousands or millions others feel the same way as it is a game of large numbers for the industry and they will only go where the money is.

...It is not really an HDMI related problem. Dolby Digital and DTS are both encoded formats having multichannel audio represented in a single stream of bits that just represent numbers...The preceeding was the point michealscott was making...

Barry, Mike, Pepar, scsiraid:
I've been out of town for a few days, and just now read thru your explanations of my perceived HDMI volume issue. Thanks much for the help; it now make a lot more sense.

I'm with you 200%, but we better hope that hundreds of thousands or millions others feel the same way as it is a game of large numbers for the industry and they will only go where the money is.
Yup, and they're VERY slow to follow the numbers. When new technology comes out and is available, it ends up in our STB equipment 3-5 years later when it's outdated and we are asking for something new by that time. They really don't know how to keep their customers happy. Now it's just who can give us the BETTER of the outdated, POS products.

When's the last time you had an STB that had most of the advanced features that COULD have been implemented that worked almost completely "bug free"?

If the recordings are made on centrally located servers, they can be far more resistant to loss of data and repairs are much more easily and cheaply done at a fixed location.Maybe they could go Google's way and plop down [NAS] connexes all over. You could [rent] your own HHD in the local connex...

Seems like that might temper bandwidth/latency, but would that reduce service costs over the HHD/STB in each home?

v/r,
C-F

They should get out of the rental business and let the marketplace offer what we want/need. Then we'd all have state-of-the-art Tivo-like devices that could be upgraded much like PCs. Can you imagine what would have happened to the VCR if it had to be rented from a cableco way back when?

They should get out of the rental business and let the marketplace offer what we want/need.Are the point/counter-points not something like:

Buy your own: Market/consumer driven........vs...Compatibility, Hacks, & theft
Leased STB: Secure and low latency..........vs...Upgrade/equip cost & servicing
Head Storage: Secure and (rel.) low maint...vs...Latency and copyrights

v/r,
C-F

Can't argue much with that except to say that purchasing seems to work quite well up in Canada. The only things they don't get are innovation and selection because the box market is still dependent on US cableco's and that should change with OCAP implementation, shouldn't it? I actually see 2 options forming; use the cableco system to store/retrieve recordings or purchase an OCAP-compatible DVR runing a cable, Tivo, or some other IPG for home storage.

If I knew the right keyword to search for this I would...

I am having the problem where when I first turn on my 8300 and my HDTV, I get the L-shaped black box on my screen. I know this is common, my issue is that it had stopped doing that for several months, then all of a sudden started doing it again yesterday. Also, when I switch inputs on my TV away from the HDMI input, the cable box goes crazy turning on/off repeatedly for 30-60 seconds. Since I don't know what I could have done to inadvertently fix it previously, is there something I can do to fix it now?
Well, my 8300 had one of its weekly crashes, when it came back to life, the HDMI quirks are gone. No more L shaped black boxes when I first turn on the tv & box. :)

Does anyone know why the 5.1 output doesnt work on this box? I can only get it to do pro logic. Very frustrating

Does anyone know why the 5.1 output doesnt work on this box? I can only get it to do pro logic. Very frustrating
The program needs to be broadcast in DD 5.1 in order for the STB to pass it though to your audio receiver as DD 5.1. With my Moxi, it only passes DD 5.1 to the receiver via optical if it is a DD 5.1 program. Many HD programs and certain HBO programs are broadcast in DD 5.1, but other than that, everything else will be in whatever format you choose for the receiver to decode the audio signal.

Copyright stuff.
Everybody wants to wet their beak when they smell money. Cablecos routinely buffer the stream on a program by program basis don't they? Also doing the remote DVR as long as the front end "looks" like a DVR does now, why would anybody care about the details of the backend storage system? As long as the customer experience doesn't change what does it matter if one copy or 50,000 copies are on the remote drives, thats a technical issue akin to storage compression techniques, but I guess we can be sure it will feed some poor lawyers families.

Latency.
You can't immediately fast forward a current program now. With the remote storage I predict some level of local hard drive storage that will work like a cache, and if you have some kind of packet priority its possible to support a VERY high, but totally interruptible data rate with cable as it now, and bandwidth doesn't really seem like a big stumbling block, just a marketing thing.

Canada.
Many things work in Canada only because the USA is next door. If the USA tried doing some things the same as Canada both countries would be in trouble.

Wow do I want a jog shuttle wheel. ;(

Tried the thread search but found no useful answers for this question:
Is there a way to edit a recorded show so that I can retain only a few minutes of the total recording?
Here's the situation: I've recorded 4 hours of music videos from VH1 in order to capture just one special song/video that I'm interested in playing back later at a party. Is there a way to edit and save only the 4 minute special music video and erase the rest of the stuff I don't want (3 hrs+56min) taking up space on the DVR hard drive.
As an example, during playback of the special 4 minute music video, what happens if I hit the record button on the remote -- would the DVR re-record that 4 minute video as a separate show?
I'm not at home now or I would try it.

Copyright stuff.
Everybody wants to wet their beak when they smell money. Cablecos routinely buffer the stream on a program by program basis don't they? Also doing the remote DVR as long as the front end "looks" like a DVR does now, why would anybody care about the details of the backend storage system? As long as the customer experience doesn't change what does it matter if one copy or 50,000 copies are on the remote drives, thats a technical issue akin to storage compression techniques, but I guess we can be sure it will feed some poor lawyers families.It's not just a technical issue, it's a legal one. By copyright law, you and I have the right to make individual recordings for personal timeshifting purposes, but the cable companies do not have a legal right to make one recording and rebroadcast it to multiple people, especially not for profit, and you'd best believe that they will be charging people for the service. The providers get around the problem by making their remote DVR service essentially a rental of private storage located outside of the home for purposes of storing individual recordings, very similar to leasing the STB. When you play it back, you play back your recording for your private leased space).

In any case, why in hell should you or any other customer care about the details of back-end implementation, so long as it works to your satisfaction? You seem to be getting indignant on behalf of the cable providers. They can look out for themselves :).

The broadcasters aren't completely happy about timeshifting in any case, because many if not most people who timeshift skip the ads which pay for the programming, making television advertising less effective and thereby less valuable. Maybe if the cable providers added a method to the service to inhibit ad-zapping, they'd be happier about it. (Time Warner is offering a service in some areas on some channels called "start over". With any non-DVR STB, if you tune in to the middle of a program, you can request that it start playing the program again from the beginning. Unlike VOD, that service implements no trick-play features whatsoever. The "start over" service is provided by agreement with the participating networks).Latency.
You can't immediately fast forward a current program now. With the remote storage I predict some level of local hard drive storage that will work like a cache, and if you have some kind of packet priority its possible to support a VERY high, but totally interruptible data rate with cable as it now, and bandwidth doesn't really seem like a big stumbling block, just a marketing thing.We're not talking about "immediately fast-forwarding current programs" (which would require the ability to get information from the future), but saved ones, where you have every right to expect to be able to quickly skip to the end. And bandwidth is always an issue with cable providers, even in hybrid fiber/coax systems. Potentially thousands of people needing an extremely high datarate concurrently wouldn't work for them.

I think that your prediction is wrong, particularly since not requiring a local disk buffer in the STB would allow the existing, already deployed set of digital STBs, all which can already handle VOD, to be used for "remote DVR" service, making it very convenient sales-wise for both the providers and their customers. They could probably enable the service instantly when you call and ask for it, just like turning on a digital tier; no waiting for the customer, no expensive installation truck-roll and ever growing pile of obsolete equipment for the providers. There are other ways of dealing with latency, like locating the remote DVR servers in neighborhood distribution boxes.

Tried the thread search but found no useful answers for this question:
Is there a way to edit a recorded show so that I can retain only a few minutes of the total recording?
Here's the situation: I've recorded 4 hours of music videos from VH1 in order to capture just one special song/video that I'm interested in playing back later at a party. Is there a way to edit and save only the 4 minute special music video and erase the rest of the stuff I don't want (3 hrs+56min) taking up space on the DVR hard drive.
As an example, during playback of the special 4 minute music video, what happens if I hit the record button on the remote -- would the DVR re-record that 4 minute video as a separate show?
I'm not at home now or I would try it.
There is no way to edit the hard drive's contents. You capture to a computer via s-video and edit, though. You also can manually start and stop recording resulting in a "separate show" for that clip. Honestly don't know what it'll be titled as I've never done it before.

I have a NYC 8300 cable box and a Runco CW-50. I've figured out that TW has suppressed much of the boxes user-management features, so I can't get the box to output anything besides 1080i. I've got an HDMI to DVI cable running from the box to the Runco, and that's fine for HD. Here's my question - if I used a non-HD cable box as well, and ran that into the Runco's component inputs (which only accept 480i!) to take advantage of the Runco's scaler which upconverts 480i to 720p would I improve the SD picture compared to just watching "1080i" SD from the 8300 over the HDMI to DVI channel? Thanks in advance for any advice.

I have a NYC 8300 cable box and a Runco CW-50. I've figured out that TW has suppressed much of the boxes user-management features, so I can't get the box to output anything besides 1080i. I've got an HDMI to DVI cable running from the box to the Runco, and that's fine for HD. Here's my question - if I used a non-HD cable box as well, and ran that into the Runco's component inputs (which only accept 480i!) to take advantage of the Runco's scaler which upconverts 480i to 720p would I improve the SD picture compared to just watching "1080i" SD from the 8300 over the HDMI to DVI channel? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Just a guess, but I think you'll need to try it and see for yourself. I know there's been "discussion" on the quality of the internal scaler/deninterlacer of the 8300HD, but I think there'd be agreement that whatever it is, it's not as good as what's in the Runco.

There is no way to edit the hard drive's contents. You capture to a computer via s-video and edit, though. You also can manually start and stop recording resulting in a "separate show" for that clip. Honestly don't know what it'll be titled as I've never done it before.

Thanks pepar,
I'll try the manual recording method, and will let you know how it works out and how it's titled.

Thanks pepar,
I'll try the manual recording method, and will let you know how it works out and how it's titled.

or you could try the cheap and easy version. If you're using the 8300 just set it to output 480i, hook it up with some composite cables and during playback record the part you want to see to VHS and then dump the show from your DVR.

or you could try the cheap and easy version. If you're using the 8300 just set it to output 480i, hook it up with some composite cables and during playback record the part you want to see to VHS and then dump the show from your DVR.
If he's going to do that, he could still use s-video and have better PQ. Sound-wise, it's RCA analog either way. But then, it should be possible to run PCM to a S/PDIF to a computer soundcard and get digital sound.

Thanks pepar,
I'll try the manual recording method, and will let you know how it works out and how it's titled.
You may be misunderstanding Prepar, you cannot do this with a DVR recording, but only while the original program is "LIVE." You cannot manually start and stop a DVR recording during playback to cut a specific segment into a separate DVR recording.

At least in TWC-KC:

Scheduled manual recordings by channel time are "Untitled Recordings".

Hitting the record & stop button usually jumps back to the show start or last channel change and have the IPG label with a bold (yellow?) font on any time that is not a IPG start/stop time.

If you want a just a video, change the channel off and back right before (guess) you want to start, then hit record (and stop at the end) or you might still get an hour of MTV.

v/r,
C-F

Just a guess, but I think you'll need to try it and see for yourself. I know there's been "discussion" on the quality of the internal scaler/deninterlacer of the 8300HD, but I think there'd be agreement that whatever it is, it's not as good as what's in the Runco.My contention was that the ATI chipset in the SA STBs does an excellent job of converting 720p to 1080i. I have not been impressed by its upconversion of SD resolution channels to 1080i, but I think that, given the quality of the source material, it might be difficult to do awfully much better (SD digital cable isn't nearly as good as a DVD, running at about half the bitrate of a decent quality disc transfer). The Runco's scaler might provide an improvement.

jmax --

Would it be very difficult to try it and compare? Just go into "Advanced Settings" and tell the 8300 that your television can handle 480i, 720p and 1080i, then tune an SD channel. It'll send the monitor a 480i signal.

You may be misunderstanding Prepar, you cannot do this with a DVR recording, but only while the original program is "LIVE." You cannot manually start and stop a DVR recording during playback to cut a specific segment into a separate DVR recording.
Thanks, you're correct. I did misunderstand pepar's suggestion; I tried to manually re-record the music video during playback and the DVR started recording the current VH1 channel.

Looks like I'll go with the PC recording method and edit as needed.

It's not just a technical issue, it's a legal one. By copyright law, you and I have the right to make individual recordings for personal timeshifting purposes, but the cable companies do not have a legal right to make one recording and rebroadcast it to multiple people, especially not for profit, and you'd best believe that they will be charging people for the service.

In any case, why in hell should you or any other customer care about the details of back-end implementation, so long as it works to your satisfaction? You seem to be getting indignant on behalf of the cable providers. They can look out for themselves :).

The broadcasters aren't completely happy about timeshifting in any case, because many if not most people who timeshift skip the ads which pay for the

And bandwidth is always an issue with cable providers, even in hybrid fiber/coax systems. Potentially thousands of people needing an extremely high datarate concurrently wouldn't work for them.

I think that your prediction is wrong, particularly since not requiring a local disk buffer in the STB would allow the existing, already deployed set of digital STBs, all which can already handle VOD.
Pardon the awkward snipping, cutting and hoping to keep context.

When I say technical issue, I mean how the backend storage is handled, one copy per user, or no more than one copy with a list of read only users, if it "behaves" just like a set top box DVR it may be possible to treat the copyright issue the same as a set top DVR. You could have a totally "blind" backend storage process that looked for arbitrary but duplicate data patterns (files even) and replaced the duplicate information with a token linked to a single instance of the data.

I do this kind of software stuff so I am curious about ways of doing it, but I agree normal consumers see the interface and the box could have hamsters inside for all they care.

Timeshifting and playshifting are going to be battle grounds. Must play first and do not skip flags are certain, and once we have no choice expect the commercial etc. to be worse.

Bandwidth with very loose latency is the cheapest kind, and bandwidth in general gets cheaper very quickly. What would help is if the backend was fairly responsive so once we hit FF the backend skips forward instead of attempting to plow through what we want to skip. People are very intolerant of waiting on interfaces, so maybe it won't work, personally I prefer a local box anyway.

I don't think Cablecos are going to be able to get away with older boxes, but time will tell.

I predict within 3 years we will start to see STRONG competition for a All in One box, TV/Cable, DVR, Phone, Games, and basic PC.

Pardon the awkward snipping, cutting and hoping to keep context.

When I say technical issue, I mean how the backend storage is handled, one copy per user, or no more than one copy with a list of read only users, if it "behaves" just like a set top box DVR it may be possible to treat the copyright issue the same as a set top DVR. You could have a totally "blind" backend storage process that looked for arbitrary but duplicate data patterns (files even) and replaced the duplicate information with a token linked to a single instance of the data.

I do this kind of software stuff so I am curious about ways of doing it, but I agree normal consumers see the interface and the box could have hamsters inside for all they care.

Timeshifting and playshifting are going to be battle grounds. Must play first and do not skip flags are certain, and once we have no choice expect the commercial etc. to be worse.

Bandwidth with very loose latency is the cheapest kind, and bandwidth in general gets cheaper very quickly. What would help is if the backend was fairly responsive so once we hit FF the backend skips forward instead of attempting to plow through what we want to skip. People are very intolerant of waiting on interfaces, so maybe it won't work, personally I prefer a local box anyway.

I don't think Cablecos are going to be able to get away with older boxes, but time will tell.

I predict within 3 years we will start to see STRONG competition for a All in One box, TV/Cable, DVR, Phone, Games, and basic PC.
Agreed on all points.

I don't think i will ever trade in my HD DVR's for a link to the head end, i wouldn't trust Adelphia any further than i could throw them (and their owner's $1 billion in illegal company funds). :rolleyes:

In the words of Lewis Black: "What were they gunna do, start their own space program!!!" :confused: :p

jmax --

Would it be very difficult to try it and compare? Just go into "Advanced Settings" and tell the 8300 that your television can handle 480i, 720p and 1080i, then tune an SD channel. It'll send the monitor a 480i signal.


It's a little more difficult than that - unless I'm missing something, when you use the HDMI out on the 8300, it disables the ability to select any other output. It only allows 1080i. When I disconnect the HDMI to DVI cable, I can select outher outputs and I did try that - and there's no question that SD using a 480i signal to the Runco's component input that uses the Runco's scaler looks far better than SD upconverted by the 8300 transmitted over the HDMI to DVI channel. Problem is I can't figure out an easy way to change between the two, since the STB is so inflexible ...

Hello, I have been reading and searching through this thread and will continue to do so. However I have a problem and if anyone can assist sooner I would appreciate it. I picked up a 8300HD DVR last week to pair with my new Panny 37" plasma. I have TWC in NYC. My connection from the box to the TV is with a HDMI cable, and let me start out by saying that everything worked well from the start.


However, yesterday my wife reported that she turned on everything and the TV had sound and channel banners, but the screen was completely yellow. Other inputs worked (DVD) with no problem, and she could see the listing of recorded shows on the DVR (don't remember if the DVR stuff could play). Anyway, TWC told me to reboot the box and I did and it came back OK.

On the next power cycle, I found that all 480i SD output was windowed on my TV - even using the aspect adjust on the TV like I was doing previously did not allow the picture to stretch, zoom or just the entire screen, it only worked on the signal inside the window. I was not using the 8300 to stretch and zoom in the past. I know this because the channel banners and guide window used to be full screen on SD content, and now thiese were centered in the window. The 8300 was always set to 16:9 TV type, 4:3 content was set to not stretch and not zoom, and all 4 output types were available. TWC 2nd lvel support insisted that my TV was to blame, but I cannot see how this could be. The TV aspect setting on SD contect could not expand the image bigger than the window, in fact some aspect settings made it even smaller. SD DVD content on another input responded normally to the TV aspect switching. What do you think? Thanks in advance.