I was specifically asking about video. I'm not sure if anyone has been able to pass HDMI through an AV receiver without getting handshake errors. I tried with my friend's new JVC 702B and the 8300HD went haywire. I'm in the market for a new receiver now but don't know what to do considering the 8300HD is one of the main components in my system and I'd rather not spend $ on a high end receiver and not be able to have everything work correctly.

I have a Denon-4806A/V.Handshake does not work due to the 8300HD it needs a software fix. When will this happen???. NO one knows Lets get with it TWC. :mad: :mad:

I have a Denon-4806A/V.Handshake does not work due to the 8300HD it needs a software fix. When will this happen???. NO one knows Lets get with it TWC. :mad: :mad:

I have talked to Denon on this and have a slightly different understanding of the HDCP problem (it is that not a HDMI problem - it also exists with DVI). Denon claimed that ALL cable boxes (not just SA) have this issue. I further understand that the real issue is that many receivers (such as the Denon) change HDMI input to component output (in order to make the video function in the receiver more versatile). But this is a "no-no" for copy protection reasons. HDCP requires handshakes between the pieces of equipment, and when the HDCP transmission software (the 8300 in this case) sees that the receiving device will do conversions, it refuses to pass video to it.

I have heard (but not seen) that there are some receivers (Sony, I believe) that do work OK with the SA8300 (as well as the Moto boxes). So it is not an issue with ALL receivers, just certain ones. Is there anyone that can confirm that they do have Sony, or any other, receivers that do work properly with the HDMI connection from a SA8300HD?

I further understand that the real issue is that many receivers (such as the Denon) change HDMI input to component output (in order to make the video function in the receiver more versatile). But this is a "no-no" for copy protection reasons. HDCP requires handshakes between the pieces of equipment, and when the HDCP transmission software (the 8300 in this case) sees that the receiving device will do conversions, it refuses to pass video to it.There's no way for an HDCP source to detect that the upstream device will convert its input to analog. Devices are licensed for the use of HDCP and would be tested to make sure that no rule-breaking transfer of protected content over analog outputs is possible before receiving such licensing. It's conceivable that some devices have received HDCP licensing which were later found to be non-compliant with these rules and therefore had to have their licenses added to the certificate revocation list; any other devices which have picked up that version of the CRL won't play with them.

If you're looking for a nice mid-high receiver to use for all connections, I'd try something like the Yamaha RXV2600. You can send component from the 8300 and composite, svid, component and HDMI from other sources and the -2600 can convert all to HDMI output to the TV and scale the lower connections up to 720p or 1080i. I believe Denon also has a receiver that can do this if you want 1 connection to the TV for ease of use. IMO though, separate connections to the monitor are preferred so that you can use separate video settings for the different sources.

There's no way for an HDCP source to detect that the upstream device will convert its input to analog. Devices are licensed for the use of HDCP and would be tested to make sure that no rule-breaking transfer of protected content over analog outputs is possible before receiving such licensing. It's conceivable that some devices have received HDCP licensing which were later found to be non-compliant with these rules and therefore had to have their licenses added to the certificate revocation list; any other devices which have picked up that version of the CRL won't play with them.
Somewhere I think I read that there are HDMI chips that do not recognize "repeaters," which is what a switch incorporates. I don't recall where I read it, but I'll try to dig it up.

There's no way for an HDCP source to detect that the upstream device will convert its input to analog. Devices are licensed for the use of HDCP and would be tested to make sure that no rule-breaking transfer of protected content over analog outputs is possible before receiving such licensing. It's conceivable that some devices have received HDCP licensing which were later found to be non-compliant with these rules and therefore had to have their licenses added to the certificate revocation list; any other devices which have picked up that version of the CRL won't play with them.
Yes there is, as the HDCP is a two way protocol and if the receiver accurately reports back to the source what it is doing.

Yes there is, as the HDCP is a two way protocol and if the receiver accurately reports back to the source what it is doing.Huh? My understanding is admittedly very limited, but I thought the only reason for two-way data exchange is for each device to authenticate that the other device has a valid license and is not blacklisted, and to share the necessary keys for encoding/decoding the actual program signal being shipped.

What would be the point of a receiving device "reporting back" to the source what it's doing with the signal? If it's doing something legit, such reporting is unnecessary. If it's not legit, well, what designer would ever build his box to actually admit that??

Yes there is, as the HDCP is a two way protocol and if the receiver accurately reports back to the source what it is doing.Yes, it is a bi-directional protocol, with device attribute and configuation data available in what's called an "Enhanced Extended Display Identification Data" (E-DID) block, available on a line separate from video data. (The E-EDID is described somewhat in this (http://www.vesa.org/public/EEDIDguideV1.pdf) VESA document; unfortunately the full standard is not available for free download). I'm fairly certain that there's nothing in the E-EDID which would enable a device to say that it will convert digital video input for ouput in analog form.

Yes, it is a bi-directional protocol, with device attribute and configuation data available in what's called an "Enhanced Extended Display Identification Data" (E-DID) block, available on a line separate from video data. (The E-EDID is described somewhat in this (http://www.vesa.org/public/EEDIDguideV1.pdf) VESA document; unfortunately the full standard is not available for free download). I'm fairly certain that there's nothing in the E-EDID which would enable a device to say that it will convert digital video input for ouput in analog form.

I looked at the EEDID guide you provided a link for, and it does not pertain at all to HDCP. That's why there is nothing there relating to this subject.

Perhaps you meant that incorporates EESS (Enhanced Encryption Status Signaling) (EESS)which is a protocol for signaling whether encryption is enabled or disabled for a individual frame.

The HDCP spec is here.

http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_Specification_Rev1_2.pdf

Frankly, I haven't had time to pour over it, but I'm sure that you will agree that this is the correct document to examine.

The HDCP spec is here.

http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_Specification_Rev1_2.pdf

Frankly, I haven't had time to pour over it, but I'm sure that you will agree that this is the correct document to examine.It only takes a few minutes to skim this spec to be able to see that it includes no provision for any communication from an HDCP receiver back to an HDCP source regarding what the receiver plans to do with the source's signal (EDIT: Well, okay, it does talk about how the receiver can identify itself as a "repeater" vs. an end-consumer of the signal, which I suppose does say something about how the receiver will use the signal...). This spec indicates that the *only* two-way comm between sources and receivers involves providing the signal from the source to the receiver in an encrypted fashion, after establishing that the receiver is not blacklisted.

Section 5 of the spec does talk about how devices can get blacklisted, and how the HDCP protocol technologically enforces that blacklist: In plain English, section 5 says that if humans at Digital Content Protection, LLC determine that a licensed HDCP receiver device has violated its license by doing something with a protected signal that it's not supposed to do, then its license can be revoked. Digital Content Protection, LLC can then broadcast a message (by inserting it into original sources of HDCP-protected content) that tells HDCP-compliant devices that a license has been revoked. As "the word gets out" through the network of HDCP-compliant devices, over time HDCP sources will stop working with the blacklisted receiver.

That's very different from an HDMI source autonomously and immediately denying a connection with a receiver because the receiver told the source it was about to do something "bad".

It only takes a few minutes to skim this spec to be able to see that it includes no provision for any communication from an HDCP receiver back to an HDCP source regarding what the receiver plans to do with the source's signal (EDIT: Well, okay, it does talk about how the receiver can identify itself as a "repeater" vs. an end-consumer of the signal, which I suppose does say something about how the receiver will use the signal...). This spec indicates that the *only* two-way comm between sources and receivers involves providing the signal from the source to the receiver in an encrypted fashion, after establishing that the receiver is not blacklisted.

Section 5 of the spec does talk about how devices can get blacklisted, and how the HDCP protocol technologically enforces that blacklist: In plain English, section 5 says that if humans at Digital Content Protection, LLC determine that a licensed HDCP receiver device has violated its license by doing something with a protected signal that it's not supposed to do, then its license can be revoked. Digital Content Protection, LLC can then broadcast a message (by inserting it into original sources of HDCP-protected content) that tells HDCP-compliant devices that a license has been revoked. As "the word gets out" through the network of HDCP-compliant devices, over time HDCP sources will stop working with the blacklisted receiver.

That's very different from an HDMI source autonomously and immediately denying a connection with a receiver because the receiver told the source it was about to do something "bad".
But certainly allows for the source to refuse to even "discuss" it.

I looked at the EEDID guide you provided a link for, and it does not pertain at all to HDCP. That's why there is nothing there relating to this subject.

Perhaps you meant that incorporates EESS (Enhanced Encryption Status Signaling) (EESS)which is a protocol for signaling whether encryption is enabled or disabled for a individual frame.

The HDCP spec is here.

http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_Specification_Rev1_2.pdf

Frankly, I haven't had time to pour over it, but I'm sure that you will agree that this is the correct document to examine.The E-EDID pertains to HDMI and DVI as a whole system, not the HDCP authentication/encryption protocol. EESS and OESS, while interesting, don't seem relevant in my opinion. Any HDCP device, DVI or HDMI, must support one of them and it looks as though all HDMI 1.1 and later devices must support EESS. ESS is an indicator of whether a single video frame from a downstream device is encrypted, provided with every frame.

The E-EDID is a way for any device to determine the capabilities and current configuration of another. HDCP does not, as far as I can tell, give a device a way to say that it will take "Decrypted HDCP Data" and display it in the clear over analog outputs; this is clearly prohibited by the complaince rules set forth in the HDCP Licence Agreement (http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_Specification_Rev1_2.pdf). An A/V receiver is a hybrid presentation-device/repater in this context, something which takes an HDCP protected stream, decrypts/decodes and "presents" part of it (the audio) and passes everything downstream to another presentation device or repeater. In either role the License Agreement states that it's not supposed to pass "Decrypted HDCP Content" through an analog output. (I believe that it originally stated that a repeater could not have analog outputs at all). There's no reason for the protocol to provide a device with a way to state its intention to break the compliance rules, since no device which did that would be licensed to use the protocol.

Guys,

I have been reading your threads here for some months and trying on my own to get my 8300 HD with Passport echo (.52) to accept a wd caviar 300gb sata, in a gearbox enclosure, using the SATA1 to sata2 cable. I gave up after awhile and just used the drive on my PC. Recently however my DVR has been acting differently, as in powering itself off, which it had never done before. I assumed after a few days of turning the TV on to see a blank screen and realizing the power was off on the DVR that this was something created by a downloaded update. I booted to the diag screen and sure enough saw some differences. I now have a SATA heading that says authorized that I didn't have before. this prompted me to try hooking the drive up again. I have yet to get it working, however, everything I read until I saw your posts over the last day or so, indicated connecting the drive then powering on the DVR. I know now to try hot plugging it, but before I read about the hot plugging working, I booted the DVR and it went to a screen that says GUARDIAN. - "Guardian has determined that your software must be updated. This upgrade will occur when the network is available. This update may take 20 minutes or more, please stand by."

its been running for over a half hour now, and the led display on the front panel fluctauates back and forth between - - and -- . have any of you ever seen this before or know what it is? how long will it take? is it getting an update through the cable form the cable company? can I interrupt it without hosing the box?
I appreciate any help you could give.

Thanks.

- TS117

You need to let the update finish. If you cancel it now, it will just continue next time you turn the box on. Over half an hour does seem longer than normal though....

The E-EDID pertains to HDMI and DVI as a whole system, not the HDCP authentication/encryption protocol. EESS and OESS, while interesting, don't seem relevant in my opinion. Any HDCP device, DVI or HDMI, must support one of them and it looks as though all HDMI 1.1 and later devices must support EESS. ESS is an indicator of whether a single video frame from a downstream device is encrypted, provided with every frame.

The E-EDID is a way for any device to determine the capabilities and current configuration of another. HDCP does not, as far as I can tell, give a device a way to say that it will take "Decrypted HDCP Data" and display it in the clear over analog outputs; this is clearly prohibited by the complaince rules set forth in the HDCP Licence Agreement (http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_Specification_Rev1_2.pdf). An A/V receiver is a hybrid presentation-device/repater in this context, something which takes an HDCP protected stream, decrypts/decodes and "presents" part of it (the audio) and passes everything downstream to another presentation device or repeater. In either role the License Agreement states that it's not supposed to pass "Decrypted HDCP Content" through an analog output. (I believe that it originally stated that a repeater could not have analog outputs at all). There's no reason for the protocol to provide a device with a way to state its intention to break the compliance rules, since no device which did that would be licensed to use the protocol.
Great post, Mike. :)

. . . I booted the DVR and it went to a screen that says GUARDIAN. - "Guardian has determined that your software must be updated. This upgrade will occur when the network is available. This update may take 20 minutes or more, please stand by."
It's almost like Aptiv has been taking lessons from Microsoft. Shades of WGA. :eek:

I let the thing run all night after seeing the screen change from the first screen to one that said interactive session established. it was still there when I checked it again at 12 noon today. I rebooted the thing and then hot plugged my drive. BINGO.
it asked to format the drive, but it only took a matter of seconds. I wasn't sure it really did it. it does say in the diag that it formatted it on the SATA screen, and its now listed as the storage device by name, but none of the other numbers for storage space or free space has changed. While that may not be of any great use like a post above said, I'm a computer geek, its my living, so seeing the freespace DOES give me an idea of whats going on. Any way to tell how many hrs I got now total?

I let the thing run all night after seeing the screen change from the first screen to one that said interactive session established. it was still there when I checked it again at 12 noon today. I rebooted the thing and then hot plugged my drive. BINGO.
it asked to format the drive, but it only took a matter of seconds. I wasn't sure it really did it. it does say in the diag that it formatted it on the SATA screen, and its now listed as the storage device by name, but none of the other numbers for storage space or free space has changed. While that may not be of any great use like a post above said, I'm a computer geek, its my living, so seeing the freespace DOES give me an idea of whats going on. Any way to tell how many hrs I got now total?
Yes, seconds. I don't understand how it takes an hour or so for Win XP on a dual core machine to format a 500GB drive and mere seconds, but my 8300HD did in seconds. The total storage and free space should have increased with the addition of the external drive.

My guess is part of the problem is how folks use the terminology. Long ago, I got used to the terms for the 2 possible processes of creating a directory on a hard drive, "format" and "initialize." Then I saw the term "low-level format" being used.

"Initialize" is the very fast one; mostly because all it does is wipe clean the disk directory. "Format" and "low-level format" meant that every sector header on the drive was re-created from scratch. At times, I liked having this option because bad sectors get mapped out during this process whereas they didn't with initializing.

However, I think the issue of "mapping out" is far more dynamic these days than it was in those days. AND I see a real lack of disk formatters that will do a "low-level" format. BUT, I see "zero all sectors" commands that put it back into the extremely slow category. Understanding a little bit about drives and dynamic mapping out, I have never run it all the way through on a 2-400G drive.

Keep in mind that this "laying out sector headers" gets done very quickly in the factory (highly sophisticated and dedicated tools, you know!). And there is a school of thought that says once that is done, there's really little reason to re-do it. Most likely because marginal sector map outs can be done on the fly these days.

My guess would be that somehow it was doing the equivalent of a "zero all sectors." Or maybe not... you canceled it, and it took seconds. This is completely consistent with a buggy OS... and we know what hoops some have to go through to use external drives!

i know i've seen the answer to this question somewhere in these forums before, but i can't seem to find it no matter how many searches i do, so i figure i'll ask again...

how does one change the default erase recording time from the current (is it 2wks?) to "save until manually erased"?

i am changing each recording to "save until manually erased" manually and i would like to have it automatically default to this option...

sorry if this has been asked before...

thanks.

List
B
Change Save Time for future recordings.

SARA 1.88.19.1

Good question. BUT AFAIK the default is "until space is needed." I DID notice that they DO seem to build in an indicator. And it appears to actually take into account your scheduled recordings. Few weeks ago, I saw an indicator in the list of recorded programs that said my oldest recording would be erased in 2 days. This was visible in the list. Later existing programs said 3 and 4 days. I watched an hour or two and deleted a movie that was a mistake (the infamous Omen the guide said was the current movie, but it wasn't) and the "indicators" disappeared.

The point being that the "until space is needed" default does kinda work out.

Oh, 1.8.112 (important to mention your OS revision).

As DoubleDAZ points out, "default erase time" is not a feature of Passport. DanXP's STB is running SARA, not Passport--he asked his question in the wrong thread. For future reference, you want the "SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=471859)" thread.

BTW, didn't there used to be a huge thread like this one for DVRs running SARA on TWC systems? I can't find it now.

There was, but after DianaTWCSC quit posting because of all the flack she was getting for trying to help folks outside SC, it kind of died and probably ended up in the archives. BTW, she was very helpful and still posts in the TWC SC local theads.

Please forgive me if this thread has been addressed already. Does anyone know how to zctivate or turn on a sa8300 in nyc via time warner cable to allow for hdmi output to my mitsu dlp.

I recall from my earlier set that although tmc says the hdmi doesnt work , it does and i am in fact running it on my other tv and box. Just cant recall how i turned it on. or is possible that new software had disabled the hdmi output. Answers or links to prior posts would be appreicated.

I've searched this thread and not found an answer and hope those with external drives can assist.

Can you archive recorded content from the SA8300's internal drive to the external drive? Are there any gotchas like the internal drive has to be full, or you have to replay the content, etc.? In short, if you can, then how?

I've read about the loss of trick play when using SATA for the external drive, and think I'm willing to live with that should I take the plunge.

I've searched this thread and not found an answer and hope those with external drives can assist.

Can you archive recorded content from the SA8300's internal drive to the external drive? Are there any gotchas like the internal drive has to be full, or you have to replay the content, etc.? In short, if you can, then how?

that's the main reason I was looking forward to an external drive. Based on my ponderings a few months ago and the answer I got, no you can't. The external drive is just treated as an extension of the overall storage capacity. Which makes me wonder can you actually tell which drive is being used for a particular show? If you unplug the external drive while content is stored there, what happens?

External drives are just an extension, both drives are treated as a single unit. Any recordings on the external drive are tied to the specific 8300 and can only be viewed on that 8300. If you unplug the drive, nothing really happens. Plug it back in and your recordings should still be there, but you cannot take it to a friends house, plug it in, and view anything. AFAIK, you also cannot switch out multiple external drives for archiving that way. DVRs are limited life tools, not long life archivers.

While I think you're correct functionally, I'm not so sure that automatically means the drives are concatenated. I recall reading stuff from guys who have had external drives for a while and what I remember is that they felt a "recording" was either on the internal drive, or on the external drive, but not spread over both drives. I got the impression that the OS logic was that if the recording fit the internal drive, that's where it went, or it did not fit, so it went to the external drive.

Understand this is really, really is kinda esoteric thing that only techies might be concerned with at all. I only bring it up if someone has a different take on the situation and because I enjoy understanding the fine technical points that most just don't care as long as it works!

Riverside_Guy,

I don't know for sure for Passport, but Scientific Atlanta's documentation (for SARA) makes clear that an individual recording is not "spanned" over both drives.

If I was designing this, I wouldn't split recordings across drives. If the external drive were removed, the recordings on it would simply disappear from the "Saved Recordings" list and reappear when you plugged it back in.

It's not the most space efficient scheme, since there might not be sufficient space on either drive to hold a recording when the combined free space on both would be enough, but it makes sense.

It'd be an interesting experiment to see if you could use multiple drives, switching them at will. Of course, you could never control whether a recording is stored on the external drive (except, maybe, if you filled up the internal drive and never deleted anything stored on it :)). I suspect that if you connect a drive, format it and use it for a while, then plugged in a second drive and did the same, if you plugged the original drive back in, it would insist on formatting it again, deleting what was stored on it.

I don't have any personal need to archive. If I could connect a 500 GB drive to thi the STB, it should provide storage for about 75 hours of highest bitrate HDTV (19 Mbps); probably significantly more, given the average OTA and cable bitrates. I'd be ever so happy with that :D.

Riverside_Guy,

I wasn't trying to say the drives were concantenated (that's your word) or that any recordings would be split as a result. I was just saying that the 8300 looks at them as a whole, not C:, D:, etc., and that externals cannot be used to archive in the way the posted asked. AFAIK, you can force recordings to the external drive by keeping the internal pretty full, but what's the point to that if you can't use the external to archive or swap it out with another drive?

Riverside_Guy,

I wasn't trying to say the drives were concantenated (that's your word) or that any recordings would be split as a result. I was just saying that the 8300 looks at them as a whole, not C:, D:, etc., and that externals cannot be used to archive in the way the posted asked. AFAIK, you can force recordings to the external drive by keeping the internal pretty full, but what's the point to that if you can't use the external to archive or swap it out with another drive?
FWIW, my 8300HD still reports only one storage device. The total capacity and free space reflects the combined internal and the external though.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too Type A with terminology. One could probably say I'm picking nits!

Concatenated (sometimes referred to as "spanned," i.e. not having any RAID capabilities) means that the drives ARE treated by the OS as a single unit. If that were true, then a recording could span both drives.

I've read SA's doc, but I don't recall it tied in with any specific OS... my guess it this is the same for both SARA and Passport, although this is more a software function than a hardware one.

So I do think that the OS looks at the drives as 2 volumes (FWIW, the SATA spec has one disk controller per drive, 2 drives and you need 2 controllers; there are some very good reasons for this, but that's another story). That does NOT preclude it reporting a combined total. Keep in mind that no third party tools that can be used on these devices, and that they are not designed as "computing" devices with all the utilities such devices have (even though they ARE computers).

And now I'll shut up and go back to sitting back and watching sh*t!

Perhaps I'm being a bit too Type A with terminology. One could probably say I'm picking nits!FWIW, I think we need to pick nits, as it were, to make sure we all understand each other and to make sure new folks don't get any more mixed up than normal by these long threads that AVS prefers. :)

Does anyone know how to do a reformat on a SA8300HD with Passport software?

All of my channels above 77 are missing and all the channels below 77 display 'no data' in the guide window. I have tried both the soft and hard reboots with no luck.

I also tried the steps below from the Sara OS thread but that doesnt work on the Passport OS.

From the remote:
Hold the "pause" button down until the message light on the box flashes (about 10 sec)
push the "page down" button
push the "list" button 3 times

I would just exchange the box but Time Warner isnt open until tomorrow and the World Cup final is on today :(

I havent been able to find anything on Google either... someone out there has to know!

Thanks!!!

My TW's call center is open 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. Call them.... they can do things remotely that might fix this. Worst case, bypass the box and watch the World Cup in non-HD.

Does anyone have a different code to get a Denon receiver to work with the universal remote? The code 3035 doesn't seem to work with a 2803 receiver.

Does anyone know how to do a reformat on a SA8300HD with Passport software?

All of my channels above 77 are missing and all the channels below 77 display 'no data' in the guide window. I have tried both the soft and hard reboots with no luck.


Sounds like a cable problem based on my similar issues. it could be that your digital service has been switched off and it's only receiving the analog standard channels.

Check the box status info, to see if it's picking up any digital information. If not you need to call TWC and get them to try and ping the box.

Sounds like a cable problem based on my similar issues. it could be that your digital service has been switched off and it's only receiving the analog standard channels.

Check the box status info, to see if it's picking up any digital information. If not you need to call TWC and get them to try and ping the box.
That's exactly what he needs to do.

OK, I've had a TWC Passport 8300HD for about a week, hooked up via component to a JVC HD52G787. This morning it started acting weird: If I set it to Zoom Picture with the # key or settings menu, it changes to normal mode after a while, or if I change channels. It SAYS it's still in Zoom mode but it's in normal mode. The whole picture shows up. Cycling back thru to Zoom mode fixes it for a while. Rebooting the box didn't help. Anybody seen anything similar? I really doubt it's the TV's fault, since the TV's zoom modes all work fine.

I suspect you need to get acquainted with a super-secret, only for those in the know process called "cold-boot."

Unplug box (from electricity). Count to 30. Plug box back in. Watch a really, really bad mini light show on the display, followed by "boot." Eventually, the time will appear. Now you know it's talking to TWC. Wait 3-5 minutes and turn it on as usual.

The parakeet that flew out the window when you were a child will not magically reappear, but MAYBE your issue will seem to disappear.

The sad part is that you SHOULD not have to do this... but it has been know to cure various ills.

Yes, seconds. I don't understand how it takes an hour or so for Win XP on a dual core machine to format a 500GB drive and mere seconds, but my 8300HD did in seconds. The total storage and free space should have increased with the addition of the external drive.


One is a low level format (bit by bit) vs. the other which is just a quick format...which is deallocating space on the drive and deleting the directory that references files stored on the device. Windows can do a quick format too, but many don't choose to do this.

The sad part is that you SHOULD not have to do this... but it has been know to cure various ills.Just for argument's sake, you should never have to reboot a PC either, but I don't know of anyone who doesn't. :)

One is a low level format (bit by bit) vs. the other which is just a quick format...which is deallocating space on the drive and deleting the directory that references files stored on the device. Windows can do a quick format too, but many don't choose to do this.To go along with that thought, I recently added a NetGear Central Storage unit to my home network and it formatted the 300G HDD over the LAN in mere seconds too. Not everything has to be done on Uncle Bill's timeline. :)

Since I got VoIP service with TWC in my Raleigh/Durham home, my SA-8300 has audio drop outs and pixelization errors so bad that I can't even follow the story line on any of the HD channels. SD is fine. Space is fine. They sent a tech out and all he did was go into channel 999 service menu and check the signal strength which he said looked great. The VoIP install may have just been coincidental. Anyone have any ideas?

Since I got VoIP service with TWC in my Raleigh/Durham home, my SA-8300 has audio drop outs and pixelization errors so bad that I can't even follow the story line on any of the HD channels. SD is fine. Space is fine. They sent a tech out and all he did was go into channel 999 service menu and check the signal strength which he said looked great. The VoIP install may have just been coincidental. Anyone have any ideas?


to quote: "I suspect you need to get acquainted with a super-secret, only for those in the know process called "cold-boot." :)

the phone line takes up a tiny, tiny portion of the bandwidth. I wouldn't think that would affect signal strength.

to quote: "I suspect you need to get acquainted with a super-secret, only for those in the know process called "cold-boot." :)

the phone line takes up a tiny, tiny portion of the bandwidth. I wouldn't think that would affect signal strength.
Is there any kind of packet prioritization? Does the VoIP gear even know about the CATV traffic? I don't think there's any error correction on the TV data, so perhaps even a single dropped packet could be causinig the problem. I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so this may be a wacky suggestion . . .

Since I got VoIP service with TWC in my Raleigh/Durham home, my SA-8300 has audio drop outs and pixelization errors so bad that I can't even follow the story line on any of the HD channels. SD is fine. Space is fine. They sent a tech out and all he did was go into channel 999 service menu and check the signal strength which he said looked great. The VoIP install may have just been coincidental. Anyone have any ideas?
Is your TWC phone really VOIP, or possibly what they're calling here "Digital Phone"?

Here in Orlando, we have "Bright House Digital Phone" which is not VOIP, and not POTS, but something rather different. Voice rides on a completely different frequency on the cable line, over to the headend in Tampa, and then moves to whatever phone lines it needs. I expect many other cableco's phone offerings are the same.

Thus, it does not affect TV signals, nor does it reduce bandwidth of the Highspeed internet.

Any chance yours is the same, and thus your HD glitches are coincidental?

HTH...

to quote: "I suspect you need to get acquainted with a super-secret, only for those in the know process called "cold-boot." :)

the phone line takes up a tiny, tiny portion of the bandwidth. I wouldn't think that would affect signal strength.Bandwidth and signal strength are unrelated. My cable company adds/deletes channels now and then without affecting signal strength.

But they don't come out to my house and put a splitter on the line so they can run a signal to a new VOIP box like they might have done for rabident.

rabident, whether they ran the line into the VOIP box and then off to the TV, or took the line to the TV and split it so that one leg would continue to the TV and one to the VOIP box, they *did* change the cabling in your house, so that's certainly something to consider.

One possibly easy thing to try would be to take the VOIP box "out of the loop". Is the new wiring such that you can temporarily unplug the VOIP box and replug the cable the way it was before they installed the VOIP? If you can put everything the way it was, and the HD channels work well, then "reinstall" the VOIP box and the HD channels go kaput again, then you have an important piece of information.

One possibly easy thing to try would be to take the VOIP box "out of the loop". Is the new wiring such that you can temporarily unplug the VOIP box and replug the cable the way it was before they installed the VOIP? If you can put everything the way it was, and the HD channels work well, then "reinstall" the VOIP box and the HD channels go kaput again, then you have an important piece of information.
I think that once it gets to the wiring level - or "re-wiring" level - it should be the provider that does the testing. Powering gear up and down by the subscriber is OK, but beyond that . . .

Just my $.03.

Since I got VoIP service with TWC in my Raleigh/Durham home, my SA-8300 has audio drop outs and pixelization errors so bad that I can't even follow the story line on any of the HD channels. SD is fine. Space is fine. They sent a tech out and all he did was go into channel 999 service menu and check the signal strength which he said looked great. The VoIP install may have just been coincidental. Anyone have any ideas?

I have the "whole package" (TV, Internet and phone) from TWC here in Raleigh also. When I first added the digital phone, my Internet speed went to less than half. TWC did tried very hard to correct this. They put in a new underground line to my house and checked everything there is to check, but still my Internet speed was about that of DSL. The "fix" ending up being using two modems, one for the Internet and the other for the phone. That fixed that situation, but my HD service is not as good as it used to be. I figured that what I have is a good compromise and probably as good as it's going to be. In order to have Internet, phone and TV, the service has to be split, and splits introduce problems.

I have the "whole package" (TV, Internet and phone) from TWC here in Raleigh also. When I first added the digital phone, my Internet speed went to less than half. TWC did tried very hard to correct this. They put in a new underground line to my house and checked everything there is to check, but still my Internet speed was about that of DSL. The "fix" ending up being using two modems, one for the Internet and the other for the phone. That fixed that situation, but my HD service is not as good as it used to be. I figured that what I have is a good compromise and probably as good as it's going to be. In order to have Internet, phone and TV, the service has to be split, and splits introduce problems.

Get Vonage. It's way cheaper than TWC's digital phone and doesn't affect HD quality or cable modem speed. I have TW in NYC for cable and HD and Vonage for phone.

I think that once it gets to the wiring level - or "re-wiring" level - it should be the provider that does the testing. Powering gear up and down by the subscriber is OK, but beyond that . . .To each his own. Rabident's already had a tech in his house, and he still has the problem, which is why he's posting here for help.

Since his provider doesn't appear to be helping, I'm offering a suggestion for some troubleshooting he can do himself. It is, of course, his choice whether that's something he wants to do or not.

To each his own. Rabident's already had a tech in his house, and he still has the problem, which is why he's posting here for help.

Since his provider doesn't appear to be helping, I'm offering a suggestion for some troubleshooting he can do himself. It is, of course, his choice whether that's something he wants to do or not.
I understand completely the logic, and didn't say your advice was bad. It's just that I hold a different opinion. He's PAYING his provider for something he's not getting. It is their responsibility to fix it, especially if it's due to work they just performed. Provider not helping? Be the squeaky wheel. Escalate. :)

Thanks for the responses. I have the total package as well (phone, cable, and Internet), with phone being the latest addition. Apparently there was significant rewiring done when the digital phone service was added. I assumed all I needed was a new modem, but that wasn't the case. I was surprised when an installer came to the door and asked if I knew of any cables needing to be buried since this was the 3rd time he had been sent to my house to burry cable and he couldn't find any. I checked the side of my house and they had added another box with a splitter, cable loops, and an odd twisted pair wire coming out with a permanent translucent flat cap covering the end leads. I thought it was strange to have twisted pair along with the coax since there shouldn't be any Ethernet or phone signal until the coax hits the modem. I assume it's a test lead, but for what exactly, I don't know.

I'll try discontinuing the phone service. I started using Skype, but a standard land line would be useful. Hopefully they can back out the cabling changes they made, but chances are they'll just turn off the service. I can try bypassing the splitter they put in, but I would hate to break something (network engineer for 8 years, but TWC's gear is foreign to me). I'm pretty sure the tech was aware a splitter was put in with the install and assumed that was affecting my signal strength. I can try replacing the 8300, too, but I hate to loose some of the HD content I have on it.

We were recently discussing how the SA8300HD uses the external drive. Someone in another forum pointed out a section of an SA manual called Connecting the Explorer 8300HD Digital Video Recorder (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4003986.pdf) concerning the external SATA drive, starting on PDF page 22 (how to hook it up, recommendations on minimum equipment specs, etc). On PDF page 23, it talks about how it uses the space on each drive:How the SATA Drive Works with Your 8300HD

Recordings are balanced between the internal hard drive on the 8300HD and the external SATA drive as follows: A recording is not split between an internal and external hard drive.
The 8300HD automatically stores complete programs using the following space available logic: If the external SATA drive has more space available, the SATA drive stores the next recording.
If the internal hard drive on the 8300HD has more space available, the internal hard drive stores the next recording.This would imply that if you add a large external drive, it will store everything on that drive until it has less free space on it than the internal drive. Though this manual concerns SARA, I'd expect that Passport Echo uses the same SA-supplied APIs for the mechanics of recording and that it handles it the drives the same way.

Anyone have an update on whether the firewire ports are working on this thing yet (and by working I mean able to send useable signal to a dvhs deck)? Considering functional firewire ports are required by law, one would think that this would be a high priority.

Anyone have an update on whether the firewire ports are working on this thing yet (and by working I mean able to send useable signal to a dvhs deck)? Considering functional firewire ports are required by law, one would think that this would be a high priority.
There's no "update," but it's been discussed many times on this thread.

Anyone have an update on whether the firewire ports are working on this thing yet (and by working I mean able to send useable signal to a dvhs deck)? Considering functional firewire ports are required by law, one would think that this would be a high priority.If you dig back through this thread, you'll see that that requirement is open to interpretation :).

Personally, I think that the wording of the regulation requires that any new digital STBs that your cable provider purchases since 1 July 2005 have both working 1394/DTCP and DVI-or-HDMI/HDCP connections. It does not, however, require that all old ones be updated to have 1394/DTCP connections or that they give you one of any new ones that they have which do. It does require that they give you a box with working 1394/DTCP, if you demand one, but doesn't specify that they give you any specific model.

There's no "update," but it's been discussed many times on this thread.

My 8300HD has two working firewire ports. I run one straight to my HDTV and the other to my Media Center PC.

My 8300HD has two working firewire ports. I run one straight to my HDTV and the other to my Media Center PC.Where are you and what version of Passport Echo is your STB running?

My 8300HD has two working firewire ports. I run one straight to my HDTV and the other to my Media Center PC.
Working in the definition that the cables plug in and out? ;-)

A HD TV with a firewire input? Not that it couldn't exist, but I have not heard of such a thing...

Does anyone have a different code to get a Denon receiver to work with the universal remote? The code 3035 doesn't seem to work with a 2803 receiver.

Does anyone have any input? Does this actually work for people or am I just out of luck?

(Or do none of you people have denon receivers :p ???)

It does require that they give you a box with working 1394/DTCP, if you demand one, but doesn't specify that they give you any specific model. Before July 2005, that was true and I know that's how my local TW interpreted it. If a customer had an 8300HD and wanted working firewire ports, they'd give you a Pioneer HD set-top. In their eyes, that satisfied the requirements that they have a model available. Of course, the user wanted an 8300HD with firewire.... Hate to say it, but I interpreted it the same way as TW...

Now that ALL set-tops manufactured today have to have them, even though 95% of customers could care less, I should be able to swap my older, pre July 2005, 8300HD to a new model with working firewire. Can I ?? I don't suspect so, at least not with Passport.

A HD TV with a firewire input? Not that it couldn't exist, but I have not heard of such a thing... They do exist. Can't say I've seen one personally, but I've definitely heard or read of people who have them. Searching for "1394" at Crutchfield returns these TVs:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=284LC37D90
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=319LC3200N
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=305HLS5088

They do exist. Can't say I've seen one personally, but I've definitely heard or read of people who have them. Searching for "1394" at Crutchfield returns these TVs:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=284LC37D90
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=319LC3200N
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1xIZ5jHASek/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=1394&i=305HLS5088


Firewire was also the approach that Mitsubishi initially took for a protected digital input. It's just that the world has gone mostly with DVI/HDMI instead.

Does anyone have any input? Does this actually work for people or am I just out of luck?

(Or do none of you people have denon receivers :p ???)
Does your remote have the ability to converse with another remote control and learn commands?

AFAIK, 8300HDs are essentially rented. Which means you certainly can swap them. It might be easier if you bring it into them, say it has some issue and ask for a replacement. This was one of the major reasons I went with the cableco's DVR over TiVo/Replay.

Before July 2005, that was true and I know that's how my local TW interpreted it. If a customer had an 8300HD and wanted working firewire ports, they'd give you a Pioneer HD set-top. In their eyes, that satisfied the requirements that they have a model available. Of course, the user wanted an 8300HD with firewire.... Hate to say it, but I interpreted it the same way as TW...

Now that ALL set-tops manufactured today have to have them, even though 95% of customers could care less, I should be able to swap my older, pre July 2005, 8300HD to a new model with working firewire. Can I ?? I don't suspect so, at least not with Passport.

The earlier debate on this subject has been over the wording of the FCC regulations pertaining to this. Part 76.640 of the FCC regulations state: (4) Cable operators shall:
(i) Effective April 1, 2004, upon request of a customer, replace any leased high definition set-top box, which does not include a functional IEEE 1394 interface, with one that includes a functional IEEE 1394 interface or upgrade the customer’s set-top box by download or other means to ensure that the IEEE 1394 interface is functional.
(ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired by a cable operator for distribution to customers
Para (ii) does not include the key phrase "functional", as in para (i) - hence some thinking (mine) that the FCC has not mandated that the Firewire port on your 8300HD actually function. However, there are also other FCC statements stating specifications that must be met, and others feel that those specs mandate "functional" ports. The bottom line is that cable companies have not all (though some have) enabled the firewire ports on their 8300HDs.

If you really need a functional Firewire port on your 8300HD you migh try calling your cable company and DEMAND that they comply with these FCC rules and provide you with a 8300HD with functional Firewire ports. You might make enough noise to push them to enable it. Can't hurt to try.

Does anyone have any input? Does this actually work for people or am I just out of luck?

(Or do none of you people have denon receivers :p ???)

are you trying to get your Denon to work with a TWC remote? If so you'll just have to face up to the fact it doesn't work. The supplied remote isn't really suited to a wide range of home theater gear, especially if it's not a chain store sold model.

I have some equipment that only partially works and previous remotes didn't even recognize it. That's why I use an 880.

Mitsubishi was so into 1394/DTCP at one point that they announced that they would never support DVI/HDCP (no HDMI at the time). Of course, that position became untenable as the rest of the Consumer Electronics Association members chose to support it (I believe that Mitsubishi at the time held chairmanship of the CEA).

In any case, their televisions have 1394/DTCP connections over which you can watch video. Their first DVHS recorder had no other HD input or output. (RCA made a DVR that had no other input or output at all). Mitsubishi implemented a system in their televisions for central control of your A/V equipment called "NetCommand" which was based on 1394 AV/C and a more advanced 1394 A/V network control protocol called "HAVi" (Home Audio Video Interconnect). Since 1394/DTCP didn't become an important display connection, HAVi is a bit moot; havi.org lists a total of 6 or 7 devices which implement it, a couple from RCA and the rest from Mitsubishi (though there are probably a few more than that). Perhaps it'll acheive broader success when HD video disc recorders become available.

I think that some Hitachi, Toshiba and RCA televisions have also had viewable 1394/DTCP connections (RCA's DVR would require it).

On the subject of the FCC requirements, which Dave and I have debated, as I said before, even if they're interpreted as requiring functional 1394/DTCP connections after 1 July 2005, if your provider has obtained any DVRs with them, nothing in the wording of the regulations requires that they provide you with one. They just have to provide you with an arbitrary digital STB with 1394/DTCP, if you ask for one. The regulations seem to assume that eventually all the ones without such connections would naturally fall out of service and be replaced with ones that have them :).

If your provider does have some DVRs with working 1394/DTCP and other older ones without, I'd be very surprised if any significant percentage of their CSRs knew about it or knew how to tell the difference between units which have it and units which don't.

There are issues with how 1394/DTCP on DVRs would work. If you had something recorded on the DVR that you wanted to archive and it were marked "Copy One Generation", logically the DVR would be required to output playback of it it through 1394/DTCP marked "Copy No More", which no licensed recording device with a 1394/DTCP connection would record. (If the DVR didn't use "Copy No More" protection on playback of "Copy One Generation" content, you could make any arbitrary number of copies that you desired by playing and recording it over and over again, which would defeat the protection mode). If you were merely tuned to some protected content without recording it on the DVR, the DVR should output it through 1394/DTCP marked "Copy One Generation" and your licensed recording device could then make a copy of it.

I seem to recall some discussion of a special function for DVRs which would allow a recording of "Copy One Gen" content to be played back over 1394/DTCP marked "Copy One Gen" (and therefore recordable), provided that the DVR automatically delete the recording once playback was complete, or manually stopped in progress. I'm not sure whether any DVR has implemented this.

Note that cable providers are allowed to mark everything other than the the core basic tier with "Copy One Generation" protection; they're allowed to mark Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand with "Copy Never" protection; no recorder other than a DVR would ever be provisioned with the ability to decrypt "Copy Never" content, and DVRs are prohibited by FCC regs from recording it, except in their trick-play buffers. In any case, since core basic channels can't be protected, you should always be able to make recordings of rebroadcast OTA programming from any STB with a 1394 connection, since those channels have to be placed in the core basic tier.

Mike,
Good follow-up. :)

After July 1, 2005, my local TWC bagan to receive 8300HDs w/firewire ports. Before that, all the ones they had received lacked firewire ports. I got one new, in the packaging in September 2005 -- an 8300HD with the firewire ports. It was purchased by TWC after July 1, 2005 (they had "just got it in"). The firewire ports were not functional. I returned the 8300HD to TWC and bought a Symbio (with functional firewire ports). The 8300HD provided to me did not comply with the law.

This is a passport firmware issue -- the hardware is there to support it. The firmware needs to be updated. My question really was does the latest version of the firmware support functional firewire ports?

Once Upon A Time, most everybody hooked up a VCR to record Analog TV programs, whether OTA or via Cable/SAT. Worked for both short term time shifting and long term storage.

Ahh, those were simple times. Post-HD, if you want to record HD OTA, you either live with the limited recording capacity of an OTA HD-HDD (if you could even find one today) or you figure out how to use a D-VHS Recorder, which are fairly expensive, esp. with an embedded OTA tuner.

There are a very small number of OTA STBs that have Firewire output (e.g. MIT MDR-200). Or you buy an HDTV with a Firewire output--which should come with Firewire input from the external D-VHS for replay--and DTCP/5C compliance for connecting to Cable STB/HDD via Firewire. PROBLEM SOLVED....and doesn't tie up an HDMI interface.

It should be no surprise that most JVC and Mitsubishi HDTVs come with Firewire for connection to their D-VHS models. Most Hitachi and Toshiba models (esp with HD-HDD option) and several RCA models also have Firewire. Which begs the question as to what's holding up the others...

Searching on "IEEE" in the CEA Winter HDTV Guide, I see a model from Daewoo and even Sony now offers one and only one model with Firewire:
http://www.ce.org/Press/CEA_Pubs/821.asp

PS: Most Cable and SAT viewers get by with their HD-DVRs and/or an Analog VCR.
But if you want the same capability we had a few short years ago, you've got to hassle getting a (working) Firewire capable Cable STB/DVR or checkout www.169time.com re a Firewire modified MPEG2 SAT STB/DVR.

[Nope, they don't have MPEG4 units...yet...]
[One more reason I haven't jumped ship to DISH....yet...]

Does your remote have the ability to converse with another remote control and learn commands?

No, its the one that came with the box.

are you trying to get your Denon to work with a TWC remote? If so you'll just have to face up to the fact it doesn't work. The supplied remote isn't really suited to a wide range of home theater gear, especially if it's not a chain store sold model.

I have some equipment that only partially works and previous remotes didn't even recognize it. That's why I use an 880.

Thanks. That's what I figured but I just wanted to be sure, or some super-secret-AVS codes to try :)

Thanks. That's what I figured but I just wanted to be sure, or some super-secret-AVS codes to try :)

I've got a list of several codes for the UR5-8400 but the one you listed isn't amongst them so I am assuming you have a different model remote. Lots of different TWC remotes floating about and they aren't all similarily equipped.

There's a list of TWC remotes and PDF guides and codes here:
http://universalremote.com/sb/

you might find a similar model, but it's a shot in the dark if another model code will work.

It should be no surprise that most JVC and Mitsubishi HDTVs come with Firewire for connection to their D-VHS models. Most Hitachi and Toshiba models (esp with HD-HDD option) and several RCA models also have Firewire. Which begs the question as to what's holding up the others......I imagine that it's the fact that the only thing that you can archive arbitrary content to (i.e., stuff other than basic cable) is DVHS, which, as you mentioned, is relatively expensive. It's also VHS-format cassette tape--how many people high-tech enough to be into HDTV will find archival recording onto bulky tape cassettes appealing? Not many. The market's just not there yet. It may materialize when we have affordable HD video disc recorders, but I wonder just how many folks with DVRs for timeshifting really care about archiving.

After July 1, 2005, my local TWC bagan to receive 8300HDs w/firewire ports. Before that, all the ones they had received lacked firewire ports. I got one new, in the packaging in September 2005 -- an 8300HD with the firewire ports. It was purchased by TWC after July 1, 2005 (they had "just got it in"). The firewire ports were not functional. I returned the 8300HD to TWC and bought a Symbio (with functional firewire ports). The 8300HD provided to me did not comply with the law.According to davehancock's reading of the regulations, the supplied STB was compliant to FCC regs. He holds that, since the paragraph giving an earlier deadline for them to have some arbitrary STB with 1394/DTCP uses the word "functional" and the later paragraph giving them a date after which all new STBs purchased have to have 1394 connections doesn't use the word "functional", the 1394 connections on the newly purchased STBs just have to be there, and don't have to be "functional". However, if you accept that interpretation, then the regulations don't contain any deadline by which the 1394 connections required on STBs purchased after 1 July 2005 have to be made functional, or any requirement whatsoever for them ever to be made functional. IMHO, if that were indeed their intent, it would be very un-FCC-like; they love deadlines :D.

But the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, the cable companies have not made those ports active. I take that to mean that the cable company lawyers have interpreted the rule the same as I have.

Further, Firewire is not the "big deal" for connecting to displays today that it appeared it was going to be when the FCC initially wrote those sections of the regs. So there is not likely a lot of "emotion" within the FCC to force the issue.

But, I am still a proponent of taking the other view when calling your cable company and using that to force the issue. It is likely that only pressure from the customers will cause the cable companies to have these ports enabled.

But people should keep in mind Mike's earlier post (#4073) about the DTCP copy protection flags - the utility of active Firewire ports may be a lot less than people think!

I'm thinking that the cable providers would, at least some of the time, prefer a box with a display, one button and one connector on the back. Every additional connector begets another brouhaha over that connector - does it work, doesn't it work, how does it work, if it doesn't work can I sue them. Sheesh. Give up on the Firewire ports already.

But the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, the cable companies have not made those ports active. I take that to mean that the cable company lawyers have interpreted the rule the same as I have.

Further, Firewire is not the "big deal" for connecting to displays today that it appeared it was going to be when the FCC initially wrote those sections of the regs. So there is not likely a lot of "emotion" within the FCC to force the issue.

But, I am still a proponent of taking the other view when calling your cable company and using that to force the issue. It is likely that only pressure from the customers will cause the cable companies to have these ports enabled.

But people should keep in mind Mike's earlier post (#4073) about the DTCP copy protection flags - the utility of active Firewire ports may be a lot less than people think!
It appears that the Firewire ports on "new" SA8300HDs has been implemented (physically present) and has been actually enabled on many systems. But the reports I've seen say that it locks up and doesn't work correctly with a D-VHS Recorder.

So it's just like CableCARD, HDMI and SATA--implemented, but still buggy, buggy, buggy...

For over two years I have successfully used a JVC D-VHS with an (almost) fully functional SA3250HD, (doesn't control START/STOP events) and look forward to saving $10/month if they ever get Firewire working in SA8300HD.
Although a few systems still don't get it, most MSOs fixed the copy protect bit problems two years ago.

PS: I also gave up on HDMI interface and look forward to final fixes for the SATA interface....

PPS: I've sent numerous email complaints to TWC re these subjects, but it seems it's time to do it again...I need to add a complaint re the "black stripe" on the left side of most digital simulcast channels...

I'm thinking that the cable providers would, at least some of the time, prefer a box with a display, one button and one connector on the back. Every additional connector begets another brouhaha over that connector - does it work, doesn't it work, how does it work, if it doesn't work can I sue them. Sheesh. Give up on the Firewire ports already.
I believe they call that "DCAS"...which then becomes the HDTV/DVR manufacturer's problem....

Does anyone have a different code to get a Denon receiver to work with the universal remote? The code 3035 doesn't seem to work with a 2803 receiver.

My Atlas remote works with Denon 3803, so I would think your 2803 should work. The codes listed in the manual are 1360, 0004, 1142, 0771, and 0273. I don't recall which one I used, but I remember just going down this list and one of them worked.

I don't recall which one I used, but I remember just going down this list and one of them worked. My experience is try the last one first ! I don't know how many times I tried the dozens of codes for Toshiba TVs and almost always it's the last one that works ! Now I'm smarter than the lists. :D

If anyone experienced serious, i.e. stopped working, issues with their HDMI outputs, even when converted to DVI at their TV, with Passport .051, has it been "fixed" if you're updated to .066 ?? I was asked for input on this by my contact at my local TWC.

Give up on the Firewire ports already.

You and your cat will thank me when the Blu-Ray/HDDVD recorders come out and only accept firewire as a method to record HD.

You and your cat will thank me when the Blu-Ray/HDDVD recorders come out and only accept firewire as a method to record HD.
Me and my little cat would like some of what you're smoking. :)

Me and my little cat would like some of what you're smoking. :)Okay--exactly what do you expect HD video disc recorders to accept as digital inputs? They're sure as hell not going to capture, encode and record a 2 or more Gbps HDMI bitstream in realtime nor are they likely to digitize and encode HD component video.

Personally, I expect that many of them will have HD CableCARD tuners, but I also expect them to record 1394/DTCP ala DVHS recorders. (Of course, if they have CableCARD tuners, 1394/DTCP from cable STBs is somewhat moot :)).

Is my hard drive dead? It wont let me go into the List mode. I got into the diag mode and it does not see the hard drive at all. I am in NYC and the version I have is 1.8.112.

Is there anything I can do? This happened before and they said all they could do is rpleace the hard drive, we lost everything we saved and it takes over a week to get an appointment. Thanks in advace

Is my hard drive dead? It wont let me go into the List mode. I got into the diag mode and it does not see the hard drive at all. I am in NYC and the version I have is 1.8.112.

Is there anything I can do? This happened before and they said all they could do is rpleace the hard drive, we lost everything we saved and it takes over a week to get an appointment. Thanks in advace

If a cold boot doesn't revive the thing, it's time to replace it. If you can, exchange it for a new one at the TWC service center nearest you. Much less aggravating than scheduling an appointment and waiting for someone to show up, with or without the right equipment.

Sure sounds dead to me.... When they say "replace the hard drive", they mean the entire box, by the way. And no, they will not, nor can they, transfer your recorded shows.

As suggested already, take the box to your nearest TWC office and swap it out. I *know* you can do this in NYC as others in this thread have done and reported doing so.

Okay--exactly what do you expect HD video disc recorders to accept as digital inputs? They're sure as hell not going to capture, encode and record a 2 or more Gbps HDMI bitstream in realtime nor are they likely to digitize and encode HD component video.

Personally, I expect that many of them will have HD CableCARD tuners, but I also expect them to record 1394/DTCP ala DVHS recorders. (Of course, if they have CableCARD tuners, 1394/DTCP from cable STBs is somewhat moot :)).
I expect that they will not be limited to only Firewire, which is what the poster I was responding to thought would be the case.

What signal does the "Cable Out" connector have? I had assumed it was like a pass-through from the "Cable In", but it seems not to be. I have to put a splitter on my Cable coax to feed the 8300, and the TV, to get the TV to recognize the analog cable stations (without the box). The signal out the "Cable Out" seems to have nothing.

Is my 8300 HDMI connection over-riding the antenna out? I'm just experimenting to see if I can run the cable out to another TV that has no box without splitting the signal. TV works fine with the splitter. Analog stations seem to look a bit better in "TV" mode (not through the box), than through "Cable" and HDMI.

What signal does the "Cable Out" connector have? I had assumed it was like a pass-through from the "Cable In", but it seems not to be. I have to put a splitter on my Cable coax to feed the 8300, and the TV, to get the TV to recognize the analog cable stations (without the box). The signal out the "Cable Out" seems to have nothing.

Is my 8300 HDMI connection over-riding the antenna out? I'm just experimenting to see if I can run the cable out to another TV that has no box without splitting the signal. TV works fine with the splitter. Analog stations seem to look a bit better in "TV" mode (not through the box), than through "Cable" and HDMI.
The "cable out" connector has an RF output and is primarily, I believe, for use by those who have no other signal input on their TV. The "channel" is selectable to either channel 3 or channel 4 in the 8300HD's General Settings; the TV would then be tuned to that channel to receive the STB's output. I *thought* that when the STB is off, the cable out *is* a passthrough.

Keep in mind that what is available at the RFI out connector of the 8300 is the channel that the box is tuned to (that's why, as pepar says, you need to "tune" the TV to usually a choice of 2 channels). I'm pretty sure that if the 8300 is off, you are not going to get an image on the TV. But, as pepar thinks, it may very well do what I suggest next...

Mostly as a fallback type of thing, I split the cable before it gets to the 8300. One leg goes to the "antenna" connection on my TV. Selecting that input as I can "tune" on the TV into any of the unscrambled channels on the cable (i.e. the one you don't need a cable box for). In my market, it's ABC, NBC, CBS, Fux, UPN, WB, TNT, PBS and C-Span. Fallback in that if the 8300 fried itself, there's stuff I can watch during the time I need to get the box replaced.

Back in my CRT days, I used such a connection so I could record 2 different channels and watch a third one live. Although I think I did that only once or twice.

Actually, I find that RF out as sort of a "poor man's" Multi-Room feature. It has whatever the main video output has. If the main video out is HD, then the RF out is downconverted. It also includes stereo. In my case, I use it to distribute Music Choice to my office.

I think the key here is that the TV has to be on channel 3 or 4, depending on 8300 setting, to receive anything. Using the RF Out is not the same as splitting the cable to receive a cable-ready signal.

Hi guys,

I've tried searching for an answer but being that this thread is over 100+ pages I did not find the answer to what I was looking for. I currently rent and 8300HD from brighthouse networks here in Orlando FL. for Our HDTV in the family room. The built in 160GB HD is too small for my families use. We record alot of shows and movies daily which causes the older shows to be deleted if we don't watch them in time. I beleive the SATA port on the box is disabled therefor I dont want to purchase an external HD and attempt to up the storage limits. What I'm wondering is if there is a way to record the shows stored on a box to an external source. My main interest are either to a PC w/ MCE or to one of those DVD-R recorders with a built in HD. (the one i like in paticular would be the Panasonic DMR-EH55)
I understand that most of the premium channels are encrypted which makes it hard to record to MCE via let's say a HD tuner card, but if I was to get the DMR-EH55 would I be able to play the an SD or HD show which will send the video out via component video and into the DMR-EH55? Will this work. Will it still be at the resolution which it was originally recorded in?

I've had a few movies delete from HBOHD and they don't always repeat them in HD which is my prefered viewing choice. So I hope I can send it to an external source where I can delete when I wish.

Unfortunately, your DVD recorder isn't going to record an HD component video signal, so you won't be able to save your HBO HD shows in HD using it. You could probably temporarily set the box so that it couldn't output anything better than 480p, so that it would render the HD program in standard def, but that's about it.

Do you know what revision of the firmware that your box is running? It's possible that you can connect an SATA drive. We haven't seen any firmware version where connecting a drive doesn't disable live trick-play (you lose PAUSE, FF, REW, etc while watching live television), but if you mostly watch recorded stuff, that shouldn't affect you much.

Back in my CRT days, I used such a connection so I could record 2 different channels and watch a third one live. Although I think I did that only once or twice.
Sometimes I have trouble finding one thing to watch at a time. :)

I had the same problem and decided that two 8300's made sense for a lot of reasons.
1) I can now record up to 4 programs at once.
2) I have twice as much disk space and I have to manage it
3) If one unit goes bad, I still have the other one.

The downside was that I had to work out the issues with there not being a device selection on the IR input as there is on D# and Tivo DVR's. My HT IR system is zoned so I was able to easily solve the problem. I guess SA thought that no one would want 2 of their boxes in the same room.

I had the same problem and decided that two 8300's made sense for a lot of reasons.
1) I can now record up to 4 programs at once.
2) I have twice as much disk space and I have to manage it
3) If one unit goes bad, I still have the other one.

The downside was that I had to work out the issues with there not being a device selection on the IR input as there is on D# and Tivo DVR's. My HT IR system is zoned so I was able to easily solve the problem. I guess SA thought that no one would want 2 of their boxes in the same room.

I actually had a lengthy e-mail discussion with someone at SA about this and they told me that the reason that they thought that this option was unnecessary is that (according to them) many cable companies won't allow you to hook up more than one box to a display. Ha! FYI, I have three 8300HDs in my HT, two that I use in the same way you do, and the third that my wife uses to record whatever she wants (sometimes even having the option of recording 4 simultaneous programs isn't enough).

Like yours, my IR system does address the boxes individually, but for others here who might have two boxes in the same room, there is a simple workaround: if you turn one box off and the other on, and always send an on/off command when you switch boxes, then you whould wind up toggling the on/off state of both boxes at once, so only the active box will respond to your remote.

Interesting idea... I wonder how they charge for it... I remember for regular STBs it was like a couple of bucks for an extra box; but we're talking DVRs here. TWC-NYC charge is 9 bucks a month for that, my guess is it would/might be another 9 bucks.

Your guess is correct, but then you get to complain twice as much. I actually have three DVR's and two STB's (one PACE STB and one SA). I have a problem with the DVR's in that they often do not record a show, or start early late (like 20 minutes or end early like 20 minutes). It might be a reboot but I have not noticed. It does tick me off in that I like certain things about the DVR (speed of the GUI) but the reboot issue and the black masks are a definite lack of quality issue. Whomever writes the software should be fired and some competent people hired. And all you programmers, do not tell me how hard it is. I managed software development for many years in the 60's and 70's when it was tough (little tooling) and we developed for life critical situations. What now masquerades as debugged software on the SA8300HD is a farce.

I actually had a lengthy e-mail discussion with someone at SA about this and they told me that the reason that they thought that this option was unnecessary is that (according to them) many cable companies won't allow you to hook up more than one box to a display. Ha! FYI, I have three 8300HDs in my HT, two that I use in the same way you do, and the third that my wife uses to record whatever she wants (sometimes even having the option of recording 4 simultaneous programs isn't enough).
This syncs with the conversation I had with my cable provider after having one 8300HD and asking for a second one; they were hesitant/reluctant to let me have one as they were "running out." That remark sent me minorly ballistic.

Me:"You're advertising these, do you want subscribers to have these, or don't you. Buy more."

Them: "That will take time. We under-estimated the need."

Me: "How did you initially estimate the need? Did you do any research or take a poll?

Them: <silence>

barry,

You know we disagree on the programming. I and many others have never had those problems (1.85.x.x, 1.87.x.x, and now 1.88.19.1). If it were simply the programming, I'd bet we'd all have those problems. It certainly seems like everyone in Merritt Island FL should, but I don't think that's the case. I know it's frustrating, but why blame the programmers unless you have some proof of a specific error in the coding that is causing your problems? IMHO, there is just too much other stuff in the mix to throw all the blame on coding errors, though that is certainly the easiest to do.

I don't find a lot of stuff HD to keep for any length of time, so I have one 8300 and one SD cable box hooked to a TiVo.

Anything I want to save, I record to DVR - even tho it's SD.

I had the same problem and decided that two 8300's made sense for a lot of reasons.
1) I can now record up to 4 programs at once.
2) I have twice as much disk space and I have to manage it
3) If one unit goes bad, I still have the other one.

The downside was that I had to work out the issues with there not being a device selection on the IR input as there is on D# and Tivo DVR's. My HT IR system is zoned so I was able to easily solve the problem. I guess SA thought that no one would want 2 of their boxes in the same room.

Barry, I live fairly close by in Cocoa Beach, and was wondering if you were able to use an external hard drive on your 8300?

barry,

You know we disagree on the programming. I and many others have never had those problems (1.85.x.x, 1.87.x.x, and now 1.88.19.1). If it were simply the programming, I'd bet we'd all have those problems. It certainly seems like everyone in Merritt Island FL should, but I don't think that's the case. I know it's frustrating, but why blame the programmers unless you have some proof of a specific error in the coding that is causing your problems? IMHO, there is just too much other stuff in the mix to throw all the blame on coding errors, though that is certainly the easiest to do.

While I wouldn't quite put it in Barry's terms, there are some basic flaws in the STB OSes that do cause screw ups that are too frequent. I too have managed software development and my estimation is that the OS does not meet what I would call release quality. The desktop OS I use (not from Redmond) is far more complex as it's general use and the kinds of frequently recurring errors the STB OSes have would never, ever acceptable.

The really compounding thing is that I have my choice of desktop OSes, but none of us have any choice of STB OSes. If I find the regular failings of Passport to be "worse" than those of SARA, I can't say to my cableco "hey, I want a box with SARA, not passport." To me, that fact alone should put additional impetus to have fewer software issues.

While I wouldn't quite put it in Barry's terms, there are some basic flaws in the STB OSes that do cause screw ups that are too frequent. I too have managed software development and my estimation is that the OS does not meet what I would call release quality. The desktop OS I use (not from Redmond) is far more complex as it's general use and the kinds of frequently recurring errors the STB OSes have would never, ever acceptable.

The really compounding thing is that I have my choice of desktop OSes, but none of us have any choice of STB OSes. If I find the regular failings of Passport to be "worse" than those of SARA, I can't say to my cableco "hey, I want a box with SARA, not passport." To me, that fact alone should put additional impetus to have fewer software issues.
I have never had a single problem with my two 8300HD and one 8300 running Passport. They have been online for over a year. With all of the "platforms" being virtually identical, and most users' experience being trouble-free, how can there be software problems at all? What are those with problems doing that I'm not? I seek enlightenment, not an argument. :)

Having a choice, you could not pay me to use SARA (well, everyone has his price :D). I just find certain features of it to be odious. (Automatic timed deletion of recordings, whether the space is needed or not, is probably my biggest problem with it). Passport Echo's GUI is much closer to TiVo, which I'd used for many years prior to getting the SA8000HD.

Properly speaking, Passport Echo and SARA are not operating systems; they are applications called "Interactive Program Guides". The underlying OS is called PowerTV, something that I believe is developed by a company in San Jose (or one of the adjacent towns in Santa Clara County) which was acquired by Scientific Atlanta some years back.

Like most software, bugs in these applications don't manifest for everyone using them. I've seen people complain to high heaven about problems that I and others in the same area using the same equipment running the same firmware never saw.

Like most software, bugs in these applications don't manifest for everyone using them. I've seen people complain to high heaven about problems that I and others in the same area using the same equipment running the same firmware never saw.
Isn't that odd? How could that be explained?

Easy! The software is hard-coded to mess up every 1000th account. :)

Never tried the external hard drive route on the 8300. I just went with two 8300's for the reasons stated.

Looks like I stirred up a minor hornets nest. I'm sorry if I have offended any programmers BUT...

I have been a programmer (and am still one at heart) since 1958, with my first real world programming job starting in 1960. I am ashamed of the state of "the (my) industry" with regard to releasing product that does not have a reasonable level of software quality relative to bugs. Especially if the choice was made to make it a software driven product. When I buy a finished retail (commercial) product it should work and every feature that was claimed in any literature provided by the manufacturer for the unit should be there and operating; NO if's and's or but's. In the case of "advertising" (marketing material) for commercial products, it should be treated as the gospel (:-) because that is what buyers base their decisions on. If a seller says A is true, then A should be true in all cases and under all conditions unl;ess stated otherwise.

I know how hard what I want is, but I still want it!. When I was an executive in the digital world, I was known as a tyrant and a terror. People were afraid to come into my office because of what might take place. I suffered no fools and that was my reputation. Smart capable people and I became friends and many of them worked for me in excess of 20 years. I remember one fellow who quit after writing about 5000 lines of assembly based machine code (one side of a complex real time communications system); and had it work the first time we ever ran it with no bugs found for about 2 years. He quit because he said I took the fun out of programming for him. He programmed so he could debug!

Now the real world. Any software that runs in an environment that is weakly or poorly specified, or is badly written will act differently for different interface conditions. People are part of the interface. Only when all conditions are the same and the code is very well written will errors be easily reproduced. Take the case of HDMI. The spec is there, it is not well written (IMHO), but the real issue is that there is no compliance testing mechanism that is adhered to by all systems that wish to state they are HDMI compliant. HDCP gets even worse. I believe that most of my issues on the SA8300HD have to do with the way I use it. I use the HDMI output, I connect to a HDMI repeater (DVDO scaler). I fault the DVDO scaler as much as I do the 8300HD, but at least DVDO is customer responsive, in fact I will state that IMHO they are the most customer responsive and customer supporting firm I have come across in the AV/software industry to date.

I do not believe we should EVER have to tolerate a device rebooting. That is just "we couldn't figure out the problem, so we punted". I am not interested that they did not expect the problem and did not account for it, that is just bad design/code.

Okay enough of a rant. I am sure I will get letters. (PS I have been debugging some code I wrote all day, so I am in a bit of a negative mood, and my head hurts).

Well, Barry, that was very well put, I must say. I certainly want that same level of function and tried my best to provide that in my programming/management days. But, I personally think the environment some of today's programmers have to work in have changed and I just think it's unfair to chastize the low men/women on the totempole, the programmers. I have very little doubt that the coding meets the specs the programmers were given and I believe it's the rest of the team that simply doesn't do their homework or lacks the needed skills to produce a bug-free product that works in all environments.

I believe much of how you are using your 8300 was not thought of or designed around. I don't know how you expect SA to design around a repeater that may not follow all the HDMI rules and may be causing some of your problems. I'm not saying that's the case, but I think you get my point; blaming SA programmers for what might be another device's flaws is blatantly unfair, is it not?

Then too, if the specs are so poor and there is no finite way to test adherence, how can you blame any programmers? I coded to specs all the time and went ballistic if the specs were wrong and I was still blamed. Fortunately, I also had some degree of expertise in the field I was coding for and caught many spec errors, but there was absolutely no way to catch them all beforehand, especially when mission time constraints precluded thorough research with all the "right" people. Even when we had the time, getting all the info needed was like pulling teeth; if you didn't know the question, there was no way to get the info. In short, programmers are paid to code to specs and as long as the code meets the specs, they should not be chastized or held accountable for problems that the designers didn't consider.

I also don't think you give enough credence to the depth of the problem trying to code for all the different cableco's and their myriad of hardware/software in a single piece of software. If it were only SA having problems with SARA, that would be one thing, but Pioneer also has problems with Passport. I simply believe much of the problem resides with cableco's and SA/Pioneer are both coding around them as problems are identified. I also believe it's impossible for SA/Pioneer to have all the varying equipment inplace for testing and I believe cableco's allow crippled software to be released for any number of reasons.

I also have to take some exception to your customer service comments. SA has been releasing updates with some degree of regularity and they have recently been pretty responsive to a number of end-users even though cableco's are their customers, not end-users. Cableco's are very slow to test releases and very few use actual subs to do any testing. I've had 1.88.19.1 for over 2 months now and it's still not available to the rest of the Phoenix market even though I've reported no problems. Of course, I can only test so much on my setup and this is the first time Cox here has allowed any subs to test software, so maybe things will get better in the future.

You missed my point. It is not the programmers I am annoyed with, it is the entire industry that produces product that works marginally, and that does not live up to claims or promises. It is us, the consumers, that let them get away with it. The chain is so broken that I wonder if anyone really wants to fix it. It is not just with the SA8300, but with complex software based devices in general.

I really do know how tough it is, but, as I used to tell my employees and my students; "Don't expect me to drop my expectations to meet your capabilities, raise your capabilities to meet my expectations".

Cheers.

Whomever writes the software should be fired and some competent people hired. And all you programmers, do not tell me how hard it is.I don't think I misread that, but I certainly agree with the industry comment, my point also. :)

You are correct, I did improperly focus my wrath at the programmers, But as I said I am one of them. It is the state of the industry that has me upset. That, along with the fact that nobody really wants to do anything about it.

10-4. I think though that some things are being done, like OCAP, that will help. Trouble is they take way too long, but I think there is hope.

I'm new to this forum and have been searching like many others for a way to connect a TWC SA 8300HD box to an HDTV through HDMI and have DD available to run to an AVR.
So according to the SA 8300hd owners manual, if the 8300hd detects that your HDTV does not decode DD, then it reverts to only 2 channel audio through HDMI cable.
So has anyone figured a work around to stay with HMDI cable and still get DD to output from 8300hd?

I'm about to return this DVR and go back to the standard HD STB that does output DVI and 5 channel DD simultaneously.

PS - Yes, there is a way to connect directly to AVR and not to HDTV. So you have to power up AVR everytime you watch TV.

I do not believe you can do it without going through your AVR. AFAIK, audio through HDMI is controlled by the receiving device and the only way around this is through the AVR. You can connect L-R Audio cables to the TV so you don't have to power up the AVR all the time to get sound through the TV speakers.

I do not believe you can do it without going through your AVR. AFAIK, audio through HDMI is controlled by the receiving device and the only way around this is through the AVR. You can connect L-R Audio cables to the TV so you don't have to power up the AVR all the time to get sound through the TV speakers.

There is a 'setting' where you can set the box to obey HDMI or override it and select Dolby Dig or Stereo. However, if you override to DD this will stop sound from the TV. So... you can do it.. but its not automatic. Select HDMI for TV audio... if you want to listen thru AV Receiver, go into settings and select Dolby Digital.

My TV has an optical audio out (i.e. digital) and is "fed" via HDMI from the STB so I tried going from there to my AVR (optical out port described as a simple pass-through). I got audio, "proving" it moved over HDMI to the TV and then to the AVR, BUT whatever bit that tells the AVR to decode D 5.1 was missing (that's a guess), so it played as 2 channel sound. No way to tell conclusively where the problem lay, but a the "solution" was to go from the 8300 optical out directly to the AVR.

I have what is probably the oldest Passport software and theoretically the most stable. I'm not jumping up and down and yelling, but it has more software issues than it should. Audio drop outs, picture freezes are very frequent. Additional issues are less frequent, things like a recorded show that one can NOT use any of the fast forward speeds, a recording you set for an hour show that records the first minute, then stops.

And indeed, while "the programmers" are responsible for software errors, there sure is another side to it... managers of software development (a function I have done in the past). And a mix of others, it's not THAT much of a stretch for marketing to insist on "shipping" even when there are major issues.

However, my comparison to a general use desktop OS is apt. A substantially more complex endeavor yes, but one that produces substantially less flawed code.

Thanks for the info on underlying OS vs. application program... this is the first time I've come across such information. I had thought of the 8300 as a device with embedded software; in general embedded software tends to be the OS and application layer kind of as a single unit. So is it the case that SA creates a sort of kernel and TWC does the application player (via subcontractor I'd assume, just like you say SA subs out the underlying coding)?

Thanks for the posts. I spent all last night trying to do a work around, but no success.
Bottom line, with HMDI cable, all audio outputs goto 2 channel (in hdmi audio out mode) In Dolby digital output mode, no audio goes to tv and what sucks is that there is no audio input on my tv when hdmi cable is being used, other than the hdmi audio.

So do you think running a DVI cable with dvi to hmdi adaptors on both sides will work? Meaning not force the 8300hd into 2 channel mode?

The 8300 only has HDMI out no DVI. The question with an HDMI/DVI adapter is what will the adapter tell the HDMI cable when it asks for display characteristics.

This whole HDMI/HDCP situation is a bag of worms or bowl of spahgetti depending on which metaphor you prefer.

In my configuration I run 8300 HDMI outputs to a DVDO VP30 scaler, along with the optical outputs of the 8300. The VP30 has some problems with the audio on the HDMI cable so I use the audio on the optical lines. It does not matter if I select the 8300 to put out DD or HDMI audio. The VP30 feeds the HDMI video to my PJ which only has a DVI input. it routes the audio out of an optical connection to my AVR (Lexicon MC1) which accurately reports what it sees as Audio. It does report AC3 5.1 (DD 5.1) when such is transmitted. I can see it switching the audio display as a program swings to SD commercials and the back to HD main programming. The display shows DD 5.1, DD 2.0 and then DD 5.1.

Now I guess the question is even if it says dd 5.1 is there anything but 2 channels present ? hmmmm It would be kind of stupid to set all the proper flags for 5.1 and then only provide 2 channels with real audio, but it is SA ...... I guess I really need to turn off the Logic 7 enhancement which will take a 5.1 input and synthesize 2 additional channels. Perhgaps with 2.0 input it synthesizes 5 additional channels keeping me dumb but happy.

I really am very displeased with what is going on with HDMI/HDCP. I understand the why and the reasoning (I have family who are major players in La La land), but there should be some sense of responsibility in the entire morass of those involved to deliver a total solution that works. We need some benevolent / enlightened dictatorship and real monetary penalties for delivering faulty producs. The marketplace is not pushing back hard enough. Not only is change (speed) accelerating, but the rate of change (I think that is called (appropriately) "jerk", ) is also beginning to accelerate.

I just got off the phone with TWC and they are so full of it. They told me that the 8300HD does not ship with an HDMI cable and they will not answer any questions related to this. I told them that they are mis-representing by calling this HDTV service when there is no HDMI support.

Does anyone know if "technically" component video is considered HD?
I always thought HD needed HDMI cables to get enough data through to support HD format.

Is there a picture quality difference that is noticeable by going from hdmi to component?

I just got off the phone with TWC and they are so full of it. They told me that the 8300HD does not ship with an HDMI cable and they will not answer any questions related to this. I told them that they are mis-representing by calling this HDTV service when there is no HDMI support.

Does anyone know if "technically" component video is considered HD?
I always thought HD needed HDMI cables to get enough data through to support HD format.

Is there a picture quality difference that is noticeable by going from hdmi to component?

Yes... component is HD. Did you go into settings and set digital audio to 'Dolby Digital' (I believe that is what the option is called)? That should force 5.1 at least out the digital output. See my post about 5 posts up.

First off, try taking a deep breath and calming down. Second try to get the facts straight.

Most TWC installers will “lend” you an HDMI cable if they have one in their truck. However, they don’t have to give you one because “YES” Component cables are capable of passing the full 1080i or 720p signal. They are HD! That being said I see about 150 to 200 more lines of resolution with my 8300HD DVR when I use HDMI instead of component cables as measured with the INHD and HDNET test patterns.

Just go to this website and order a $10 HDMI cable. An HDMI is an HDMI cable. You do not need any of the expensive cables.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10209&cs_id=1020902&p_id=2020&seq=1&format=2&style=


I just got off the phone with TWC and they are so full of it. They told me that the 8300HD does not ship with an HDMI cable and they will not answer any questions related to this. I told them that they are mis-representing by calling this HDTV service when there is no HDMI support.

Does anyone know if "technically" component video is considered HD?
I always thought HD needed HDMI cables to get enough data through to support HD format.

Is there a picture quality difference that is noticeable by going from hdmi to component?

I use HDMI to my TV and I get DD to my receiver. Just go to settings then “advanced” and choose Dolby Digital for the Audio output. That will allow you to output DD out of either the co-axial or optical outputs. However, currently you can not get DD to pass-through from your 8300HD to your TV. That shouldn’t matter though because the receiver is the correct component to send the audio to not the TV.

I'm new to this forum and have been searching like many others for a way to connect a TWC SA 8300HD box to an HDTV through HDMI and have DD available to run to an AVR.
So according to the SA 8300hd owners manual, if the 8300hd detects that your HDTV does not decode DD, then it reverts to only 2 channel audio through HDMI cable.
So has anyone figured a work around to stay with HMDI cable and still get DD to output from 8300hd?

I'm about to return this DVR and go back to the standard HD STB that does output DVI and 5 channel DD simultaneously.

PS - Yes, there is a way to connect directly to AVR and not to HDTV. So you have to power up AVR everytime you watch TV.

I just got off the phone with TWC and they are so full of it. They told me that the 8300HD does not ship with an HDMI cable....

If you check the SA spec sheet on the SA8300HD, you will see that, indeed, the "8300HD does not ship with an HDMI cable." They list a HDMI cable as a separate part number - though most cable systems buy their cables from sources other than SA. There have been lots of issues with HDMI - many of them on the display end, so your cable company may prefer to steer customers towards the simpler HD solution.

That being said I see about 150 to 200 more lines of resolution with my 8300HD DVR when I use HDMI instead of component cables as measured with the INHD and HDNET test patterns.

That may be what YOU see on YOUR display. It all depends on how your display processes the analog component signals vs. HDMI digital ones. Many so called digital displays convert the HDMI to analog for internal processing. So one does not really know which will be better.

With monoprice cables costing $10 or less, the best advice is to try both ways (the HDNet test pattern is a good check - but not InHD).

I just ended up switching over to component cables and audio.
Picture is brighter, and slightly less contrast.
Definitely noticeable side by side, but still an awesome HD picture.

I just ended up switching over to component cables and audio.
Picture is brighter, and slightly less contrast.
Definitely noticeable side by side, but still an awesome HD picture.
That may simply be a matter of user settings (many displays have different user memories for different inputs).

Thanks for the posts. I spent all last night trying to do a work around, but no success.
Bottom line, with HMDI cable, all audio outputs goto 2 channel (in hdmi audio out mode) In Dolby digital output mode, no audio goes to tv and what sucks is that there is no audio input on my tv when hdmi cable is being used, other than the hdmi audio.

So do you think running a DVI cable with dvi to hmdi adaptors on both sides will work? Meaning not force the 8300hd into 2 channel mode?
Here's my hookup and it works perfectly. I have an HDMI-to-DVI cable running from the 8300HD HDMI to an external DVI switcher; from there, I run a DVI cable to my projector. For audio, I run a coaxial digital cable to my pre/pro. Bingo, the best of both worlds (though some seem obsessed with using only one cable.) :)

I'll toss this out because I do not know. Because the 8300HD sees NO HDMI instructions re audio, it passes no audio via HDMI nor does it turn off digital outputs? For those who want to use HDMI, perhaps - and here's some real super-duper speculation - converting HDMI to DVI and back again to HDMI would strip out the audio instructions and allow coaxial/optical digital to be used.

Having a choice, you could not pay me to use SARA (well, everyone has his price :D). I just find certain features of it to be odious. (Automatic timed deletion of recordings, whether the space is needed or not, is probably my biggest problem with it). Passport Echo's GUI is much closer to TiVo, which I'd used for many years prior to getting the SA8000HD.

Properly speaking, Passport Echo and SARA are not operating systems; they are applications called "Interactive Program Guides". The underlying OS is called PowerTV, something that I believe is developed by a company in San Jose (or one of the adjacent towns in Santa Clara County) which was acquired by Scientific Atlanta some years back.

Like most software, bugs in these applications don't manifest for everyone using them. I've seen people complain to high heaven about problems that I and others in the same area using the same equipment running the same firmware never saw.Could you describe "Automatic timed deletion of recordings, whether the space is needed or not" and how it works? I've had some strange deletions which I haven't been able to explain.

Thanks -- Vincent

Could you describe "Automatic timed deletion of recordings, whether the space is needed or not" and how it works? I've had some strange deletions which I haven't been able to explain.There is a setting in SARA called "Default Save Time", which can have the values "1 day", "2 days", "7 days", "14 days" and "Until I Erase". When you schedule a single recording or schedule the recording of all episodes of a program, that setting is used as the default rentention time. You can change the rentention time at the time that you schedule the recording to be longer or shorter than the default. (You can also change it by selecting it on the Saved Recordings list). When a program reaches the specified age, it will be automatically deleted, even if there is plenty of space left.

In conjunction with the "Save Time" settings, there is a setting called "Auto Erase". If "Auto Erase" is enabled, the oldest recording(s) not marked "Save Until I Erase" will be automatically erased to make space for new scheduled recordings when necessary.

In Passport Echo, there are only two rentention settings: "Save Until Space is Needed" and "Save Until I Delete". If a recording is marked "Save Until Space is Needed" and the space is never needed for a new recording, it will not be deleted until you choose to delete it manually. Further, the order in which programs will be deleted is the order in which they appear in the "Saved Recordings" list; when new programs are recorded, they are placed at the top of that list. When space is needed, the programs on the bottom of the list are deleted. If you want, you can pick a program that's close to deletion and move it up the list, or something near the top of the list that you don't care very much about and move it toward the bottom. I believe that if "Auto Erase" there is no way to prevent the eldest program(s) from being deleted first, other than changing their "Save Time" setting to "Until I Erase".

SARA users, please correct me if I don't have that right.

Personally, I see no reason to have a retention time specified as a number of days. IMHO, the only valid reason for automatically deleting a recording is that you need the space for a new recording, not because it's reached some bogus expiration date. If the user hasn't watched the recording, give him or her the maximum possible amount of time to get around to it. The way that I understand SARA to work, if there are no recordings marked "Until I Erase", the STB will gradually empty itself out, whether new recordings are being made or not.

It seems in the past couple days, (analog) recordings have been taking up less space on the hard drive of 8000hd. I went out expecting the hard drive to be almost full or about 97% or so after recording about 7 or 8 hours of recordings but was only 91% full. I erased some week old recordings and it freed up what I expected, about 2% of disk space per hour or analog recording. But then I erased two hours of recordings from the past day and it only went from 91% to 89% when I would expect at least 3-4% freed up. What's going on, are newer recordings taking up half the space for some reason?

Also, a few weeks ago after the basement was slightly flooded, high power fans were brought in for a week to dry out the carpets which used a lot of electricity. The 8000hd was fine at first and 100% full of recordings and fine for a few days, but then a few days later all recordings were deleted and it was at 0%. Could the electricity demands of the fans somehow caused energy surges and caused the hard drive deletion for some reason?

Also, shortly after cox on demand started on channel 1, I wasn't able to play back recordings while a digital channel was recording, if I did the box would freeze then reboot a few minutes later. This seemed to stop after the 100% full hard drive mysteriously went to 0%, even when that hard drive got back up to 95%+ full. I was going to try to switch to 8300hd (obviously very difficult when both my 8000hd's are almost 100% full of recordings) but if recording digital channels no longer cause any difficulties I don't see the point since hard drive size is same and for some reason 8000hd is acting like its hard drive is bigger than it was a few days ago.

There is a setting in SARA called "Default Save Time", which can have the values "1 day", "2 days", "7 days", "14 days" and "Until I Erase". When you schedule a single recording or schedule the recording of all episodes of a program, that setting is used as the default rentention time. You can change the rentention time at the time that you schedule the recording to be longer or shorter than the default. (You can also change it by selecting it on the Saved Recordings list). When a program reaches the specified age, it will be automatically deleted, even if there is plenty of space left.

In conjunction with the "Save Time" settings, there is a setting called "Auto Erase". If "Auto Erase" is enabled, the oldest recording(s) not marked "Save Until I Erase" will be automatically erased to make space for new scheduled recordings when necessary.

In Passport Echo, there are only two rentention settings: "Save Until Space is Needed" and "Save Until I Delete". If a recording is marked "Save Until Space is Needed" and the space is never needed for a new recording, it will not be deleted until you choose to delete it manually. Further, the order in which programs will be deleted is the order in which they appear in the "Saved Recordings" list; when new programs are recorded, they are placed at the top of that list. When space is needed, the programs on the bottom of the list are deleted. If you want, you can pick a program that's close to deletion and move it up the list, or something near the top of the list that you don't care very much about and move it toward the bottom. I believe that if "Auto Erase" there is no way to prevent the eldest program(s) from being deleted first, other than changing their "Save Time" setting to "Until I Erase".

SARA users, please correct me if I don't have that right.

Personally, I see no reason to have a retention time specified as a number of days. IMHO, the only valid reason for automatically deleting a recording is that you need the space for a new recording, not because it's reached some bogus expiration date. If the user hasn't watched the recording, give him or her the maximum possible amount of time to get around to it. The way that I understand SARA to work, if there are no recordings marked "Until I Erase", the STB will gradually empty itself out, whether new recordings are being made or not.So, if the default is set to "Until I Erase", SARA acts reasonably -- is that your understanding?

Thanks -- Vincent

So, if the default is set to "Until I Erase", SARA acts reasonably -- is that your understanding?Well, that certainly depends on what you mean by "reasonable" :). If you set the default "Save Time" to "Until I Erase", once the DVR fills up, it will stop recording, period, until you erase some of the things on it. If that should happen, it could fail to record a new episode of your favorite program just so that it could hold onto some stuff that you didn't care nearly as much about. But to each his own :D.

I fail to see why so many are missing the point re HDMI audio. He wants DD audio via the HMDI into his TV and the TV Audio Out to the AVR, NOT via a separate audio out from the 8300 to his AVR. He also does not want to have his AVR on every time he watches TV.

AFAIK, there is no way to do this the way he wants, period. At a minimum, he has to hook up audio out from the 8300 to his AVR. Then he can manually change from HDMI to DD in the General Settings whenever he wants to turn his AVR on for audio. However, if he also connects L-R audio from the 8300 to the TV, he can leave the setting at DD and use either the TV audio or the AVR audio as he wishes.

Of course, he solved it the way I would have and simply dumped the HDMI and is using Component. Where he ever got the idea that he could only get HD by using HDMI and not Component I'll never know, but he's not alone in that misconception.

Also, though HDMI may show more lines using the INHD/HD Net Tuneup displays, does that result in a better PQ for most content or is it simply a numbers game? Also, does that apply equally for all types of HDTV displays or just digital displays?

Michael,

You are right about SARA, recordings are deleted based on those settings. The only addition I would make is that there are also "number of episode" options when scheduling All Episode recordings, but the premise is the same. I myself can't see using any option other than Until I Erase, but then I like to control things. :)

I fail to see why so many are missing the point re HDMI audio. He wants DD audio via the HMDI into his TV and the TV Audio Out to the AVR, NOT via a separate audio out from the 8300 to his AVR. He also does not want to have his AVR on every time he watches TV.

AFAIK, there is no way to do this the way he wants, period. At a minimum, he has to hook up audio out from the 8300 to his AVR. Then he can manually change from HDMI to DD in the General Settings whenever he wants to turn his AVR on for audio. However, if he also connects L-R audio from the 8300 to the TV, he can leave the setting at DD and use either the TV audio or the AVR audio as he wishes.

Of course, he solved it the way I would have and simply dumped the HDMI and is using Component. Where he ever got the idea that he could only get HD by using HDMI and not Component I'll never know, but he's not alone in that misconception.

Also, though HDMI may show more lines using the INHD/HD Net Tuneup displays, does that result in a better PQ for most content or is it simply a numbers game? Also, does that apply equally for all types of HDTV displays or just digital displays?

I've moved back to component and adjusted some settings and am near identical to hdmi cable. My bias towards hdmi is simply moving all signals to the digital domain vs. analog. You are exactly correct in that I want to have DD audio to both tv and avr. Never happen thru hdmi cable. I'm surprised that TWC and SA would miss this obviously needed feature.

Thanks to all that posted regarding this. i wold have gone crazy if I thought I was the only one this was happening to.

I could be wrong, but HDMI is designed to determine device capabilities and pass only what can be used. I don't think it considers that there might be a pass-through in the receiving device, so I'm not sure TWC or SA are at fault here.

Since you hooked up Component, I asume you have audio cables going to both the TV and the AVR. If so, I believe you still should be able to use HDMI for video instead of Component if the PQ was better. I believe a lot of folks have both HDMI and audio cables connected to get the best PQ and the audio options they want.

It seems in the past couple days, (analog) recordings have been taking up less space on the hard drive of 8000hd. I went out expecting the hard drive to be almost full or about 97% or so after recording about 7 or 8 hours of recordings but was only 91% full. I erased some week old recordings and it freed up what I expected, about 2% of disk space per hour or analog recording. But then I erased two hours of recordings from the past day and it only went from 91% to 89% when I would expect at least 3-4% freed up. What's going on, are newer recordings taking up half the space for some reason?

Yes - Basically there are three types of programs on cable:
1) Analog SD - to record the DVR needs to digitize and then encode (compress) before recording.
2) Digital SD - to record the DVR needs to do nothing - the signal is already digitized and encoded
3) Digital HD - same as digital SD, except there is more data.

The thing is that for type 1 (analog SD) the DVR is not nearly as efficient as the cable head end (type 2). And the needed recorded space is thus greater.

Many cable systems have been "simulcasting" - that is, sending their basic cable SD channels out both on analog and digital. The fact that they are doing this is concealed as they use a channel map in the STBs to conceal the fact that channel 33 (for example) is no longer analog channel 33, but is now a entirely different digital channel.

It sounds like your cable company recently switched some of its analog SD channels to digital - resulting in the smaller recorded file sizes that you have observed.

On the other subject (8000 vs 8300): you should switch as soon as practical. The 8300 has fewer problems, has better HD image quality, and in many systems can have an external hard drive added for greater storage.

I could be wrong, but HDMI is designed to determine device capabilities and pass only what can be used. I don't think it considers that there might be a pass-through in the receiving device, so I'm not sure TWC or SA are at fault here.

Since you hooked up Component, I asume you have audio cables going to both the TV and the AVR. If so, I believe you still should be able to use HDMI for video instead of Component if the PQ was better. I believe a lot of folks have both HDMI and audio cables connected to get the best PQ and the audio options they want.

When the 8300HD detects no DD decoder on tv, it swithes all audio outputs to PCM 48 or stereo. No DD info left to decode.

You're technically right in that the hdmi cable is doing its job by detecting no DD and therefore turning it off. But they should have a manual override for passthrough.

Not to start an argument, but does the HDMI spec call for a pass-through override of some sort? If they did have an override of some sort, how would the TV process the full audio signal? What about other brands/models?

When the 8300HD detects no DD decoder on tv, it swithes all audio outputs to PCM 48 or stereo. No DD info left to decode.

You're technically right in that the hdmi cable is doing its job by detecting no DD and therefore turning it off. But they should have a manual override for passthrough.
Does your display have a DVI input?

Please tell me that my DVR is not about to die a slow death. I have had my 8300HD DVR for about a month now and it was obviously used before I got it. It has started to freeze a lot recently and last night it froze 4 times and required a reboot each time. Is this a sign of things to come or just "normal" for this device?

Well, that certainly depends on what you mean by "reasonable" :). If you set the default "Save Time" to "Until I Erase", once the DVR fills up, it will stop recording, period, until you erase some of the things on it. If that should happen, it could fail to record a new episode of your favorite program just so that it could hold onto some stuff that you didn't care nearly as much about. But to each his own :D.Now I think I get your point. With SARA, there is no way to keep recordings as long as possible -- being deleted only when the room is needed for a new recording.

Yes, that is pretty broken.


Thanks -- Vincent

Please tell me that my DVR is not about to die a slow death. I have had my 8300HD DVR for about a month now and it was obviously used before I got it. It has started to freeze a lot recently and last night it froze 4 times and required a reboot each time. Is this a sign of things to come or just "normal" for this device?
No, that's not considered normal even by those most critical of the device. Have you contacted your cableco's tech support of customer service? They can "reach out and touch" the box and sometimes that's all it needs. Otherwise, have them replace it.

Does your display have a DVI input?

Just hdmi with 2 audio inputs or component. No DVI.

One of the difficult things in figuring what's going on with audio not meeting expectations is the sound design. Folks tend to forget that someone decides "what goes where" in multi-channel audio. DD 5.1 provides for 5 discrete channels, how they are used is up to someone else. For about 5+ years I have noticed things like I get DD 5.1 encoded signal and 99% of the audio seems to come from the center channel. I seen sporting events in DD 5.1 that seems to have 90% of the audio in the center channel with the occasional flutter in the front mains... then I've seen ones (most of the time YES in HD does do this) that actually USE the technology, on those Yankee home games, the rear surrounds have crowd noise on them... I even heard a single guy shouting out of my right rear surround... THIS is what the technology was meant to deliver.

Basically means it's kinda hard to determine if any of the technology is or isn't failing.

"When the 8300HD detects no DD decoder on TV, it swithes [SIC] all audio outputs to PCM 48 or stereo. No DD info left to decode." Ah ha! Now I know why I can't "pass through" the TV to my AVR and I have to go STB to AVR. I've posed the "how come" question more than once so I'm happy to see a reasonable answer. I didn't think HDMI can see that "deep" into the receiving systems... this also demonstrates the "2 way" nature of HDMI, and we could go off on a big tangent there!

Actually, I think the "system" for dealing with disk space is fine with Passport (kinda, I DO want to see percentages and GBs exposed). The default is fine... but what was left out in the description is that there IS ample notice as to what's going on. There is a calculation that goes on between what you have recorded and what is scheduled to be recorded. It seems to use a "minimum of 2 days warning," i.e. it shows nothing until your oldest recorded show might be deleted in 2 days. In the list of recorded shows, when those calculations work out that way, you may find a hour-glass icon on the bottom 1 or 2 shows. The details says "2 days left until it's erased," words to that effect. Once it starts ANY notification, all recorded shows are noted... i.e. if you see the '2 day icon" looking at detail on any other recorded show you'll see "X days left." So it will tell you there are 3, 4 5 days left before something may get deleted. Not a bad system IMO.

BTW, I see no way to change the relative position of a recorded show.

As for PQ, HDMI and component, I absolutely see a difference. For me, component was darker and more contrasty, qualities I do not like, so it's HDMI only for me. IMO, both are supposed to pass the same signal (i.e. data), EXCEPT that HDMI is pure digital and my guess is the digital signal is encoded as an analog signal, the re-converted to digital inside the TV. As am analog signal, it might be more susceptible to interference than a pure digital signal. Leading me to think the all digital is "better" in addition to the better PQ I see. Like I said, this is kinda educated guesswork here, but I think I've got the gist of it.

Also, though HDMI may show more lines using the INHD/HD Net Tuneup displays, does that result in a better PQ for most content or is it simply a numbers game? Also, does that apply equally for all types of HDTV displays or just digital displays?

I have calibrated both the component and the HDMI inputs of my 55” 788p Sony LCD RPTV with the HDNET test patterns. The picture quality for “ALL” HD channels is noticeably sharper and clearer on the HDMI input. I tried this same experiment with my computer which can output 1080i over component and DVI/HDMI. I did not see a noticeable difference there. It appears that the TWC 8300HD does not do a very good job of converting the digital signal to Analog. By the way my TV converts all digital signals to analog as soon as they hit the TV.

BTW, I see no way to change the relative position of a recorded show.
If you're referring to Passport, it is possible to "select" the show and re-order it's position within the list. Of course, also with Passport, it *is* possible to keep until manually erased.

BTW, I see no way to change the relative position of a recorded show.Select an entry in the "Saved Recordings" list and choose the "Keep Longer" option. Hit the up and down arrow to move the recording up or down through the list until you have it where you want it, then hit the SEL button to "drop" it there. "Keep Longer" is a bit of a misnomer, since you can also use it to hasten the demise of the recording, but I can't think of any way to describe the option that's not awkward :).

(There is a similar mechanism in the "Series Recording" list; select an entry, choose the "Series Recording Priority" option and then move the entry up and down the list. The order of that list is how it resolves conflicts when episodes of three series appear on the schedule at overlapping times; the episode of the series nearest the bottom of the list is not recorded and will show up as a canceled recording on the grid and in the "Scheduled Recordings" list).

We have discussed this issue with HDMI ad nauseam in this thread. The DVR can only mix the sound in one fashion, and it chooses to do it as indicated by the sound capabilities of the connected HDMI sink. They certainly should have always provided a way to override this in the settings, and there is such a feature in recent Passport revisions. IMHO, however, this is partially the fault of the HDMI implementation in the displays. Since I always use my receiver to play sound from all devices, I've set my television to turn the speakers off. If a display has been configured this way, it should report "I cannot reproduce sound" in the E-EDID and receiving that, the DVR should assume that other connections are being used for sound and mix 5.1 for the digital ones.

If an interface is going to make decisions about how my system is going to be configured, then it better get it right or allow me to have some say in the matter when it doesn't. HDMI, at least as implemented by STB manufacturers, does not meet that criteria and those who've recently purchased components with only HDMI for a digital interface are suffering from it.

I have calibrated both the component and the HDMI inputs of my 55” 788p Sony LCD RPTV with the HDNET test patterns. The picture quality for “ALL” HD channels is noticeably sharper and clearer on the HDMI input. I tried this same experiment with my computer which can output 1080i over component and DVI/HDMI. I did not see a noticeable difference there. It appears that the TWC 8300HD does not do a very good job of converting the digital signal to Analog. By the way my TV converts all digital signals to analog as soon as they hit the TV.
The bigger the display, the more noticeable the PQ difference between component and HDMI/DVI. I use component video on my 29" Sony XBR 910 CRT and it looks smashing and no different than the digital connection. On the 106" projection system I use HDMI-to-DVI. When I set up that system, I compared the two and the digital is noticeably better - sharper with better black levels.

First of all an HDMI cable does nothing active, it is toitally passive, it is just a cable so we really should not refer to an HDMI cable doing anything (other than the connector falling out of its socket).

The HDMI spec does discuss and deal with the concept of a repeater. It talks about cascaded devices forming a network where displays are end leaves that only sink signals and sources are end leaves that only supply signals. I am talking about the data signals (Audio Video) and not the cotrol signals. It is obvious that the display must source control signals.

Any device with pass through of audio or video signals to mulltiple devices is playing the role of a repeater in the HDMI world, even if it is not programmed to do so. A Repeater is a very complex device (HDMI Spec wise) and must keep track of the charachteristics of all sinking (display) devices connected to it, that it might potentially connect to a sourcing device.

The real culprit in all of the above is (IMHO) probably not HDMI, but rather HDCP a different specificatioon entirely that uses the signal carrying capablitites of the HDMI cable. Here we get into encryption key transference, handshaking, etc. In fact it has to do it continuously so that (in the minds of Hollywood) some person does not disconnect an HDCP compliant display (after it has been verified and accepted by the sourcing device) and connect a recorder to capture the digital signal and make copies.

I guess if we all started returning DVD's that did not play properly for any reason and refuse to pay for them, and we started to debit our cable/satellite bills when the agreed to service was not supplied ( e.g. stereo when advertised as 5.1) there might be an attitudinal change. But as G_D told Hillary Clinton when she asked if her health care plan would ever see the light of day, "...Yes, but not in my lifetime"

First of all an HDMI cable does nothing active, it is toitally passive, it is just a cable so we really should not refer to an HDMI cable doing anything (other than the connector falling out of its socket).

The HDMI spec does discuss and deal with the concept of a repeater. It talks about cascaded devices forming a network where displays are end leaves that only sink signals and sources are end leaves that only supply signals. I am talking about the data signals (Audio Video) and not the cotrol signals. It is obvious that the display must source control signals.

Any device with pass through of audio or video signals to mulltiple devices is playing the role of a repeater in the HDMI world, even if it is not programmed to do so. A Repeater is a very complex device (HDMI Spec wise) and must keep track of the charachteristics of all sinking (display) devices connected to it, that it might potentially connect to a sourcing device.

The real culprit in all of the above is (IMHO) probably not HDMI, but rather HDCP a different specificatioon entirely that uses the signal carrying capablitites of the HDMI cable. Here we get into encryption key transference, handshaking, etc. In fact it has to do it continuously so that (in the minds of Hollywood) some person does not disconnect an HDCP compliant display (after it has been verified and accepted by the sourcing device) and connect a recorder to capture the digital signal and make copies.

I guess if we all started returning DVD's that did not play properly for any reason and refuse to pay for them, and we started to debit our cable/satellite bills when the agreed to service was not supplied ( e.g. stereo when advertised as 5.1) there might be an attitudinal change. But as G_D told Hillary Clinton when she asked if her health care plan would ever see the light of day, "...Yes, but not in my lifetime"
Nuthin' new here. As michaeltscott said "We have discussed this issue with HDMI ad nauseam in this thread." And I guess it should be dropped as a subject here, but members keep popping up with the same questions (with none of them being "how does the search function work?") and resurrecting the issue. I am not personally afflicted with any "HDMI problems" (notice the quotes), but I AM personally OUTRAGED that those who have perpetrated this hoax on us have not paid for their short-sightedness; "no one will ever want to switch our output and send it to a display and an AVR-pre/pro, so lets just skip the repeater portion of the spec."

The real culprit in all of the above is (IMHO) probably not HDMI, but rather HDCP a different specificatioon entirely that uses the signal carrying capablitites of the HDMI cable. Here we get into encryption key transference, handshaking, etc. In fact it has to do it continuously so that (in the minds of Hollywood) some person does not disconnect an HDCP compliant display (after it has been verified and accepted by the sourcing device) and connect a recorder to capture the digital signal and make copies.

I guess if we all started returning DVD's that did not play properly for any reason and refuse to pay for them, and we started to debit our cable/satellite bills when the agreed to service was not supplied ( e.g. stereo when advertised as 5.1) there might be an attitudinal change. But as G_D told Hillary Clinton when she asked if her health care plan would ever see the light of day, "...Yes, but not in my lifetime"

Just a minute here! Apples and Oranges are being mixed up here! Handshakes, and getting the 8300HD to display video either through HDMI or DVI IS an HDCP issue as you describe. That is the Hollywood issue and such. BUT the sink (display) telling the 8300HD not to provide 5.1 sound issue is a HDMI issue. Let's keep the two straight.

I don't know about Passport (I'm stuck with SARA - but perhaps I should be thankful), but 8300s with recent versions of SARA do have an override to enable the digital audio outputs (both coax and fiber) to provide the 5.1 stream to a separate srround sound decoder, NO MATTER WHAT THE DISPLAY TELLS THE 8300HD. So if this is a problem (apparently it is), it is a PASSPORT problem ONLY.

Just a minute here! Apples and Oranges are being mixed up here! Handshakes, and getting the 8300HD to display video either through HDMI or DVI IS an HDCP issue as you describe. That is the Hollywood issue and such. BUT the sink (display) telling the 8300HD not to provide 5.1 sound issue is a HDMI issue. Let's keep the two straight.

I don't know about Passport (I'm stuck with SARA - but perhaps I should be thankful), but 8300s with recent versions of SARA do have an override to enable the digital audio outputs (both coax and fiber) to provide the 5.1 stream to a separate srround sound decoder, NO MATTER WHAT THE DISPLAY TELLS THE 8300HD. So if this is a problem (apparently it is), it is a PASSPORT problem ONLY.

Passport has an override too... however it doesnt only apply to the digital audio outputs. It also overrides what is sent to the display (or just turns it off). When I override to send DD to the receiver, the display goes silent. It would be better if it only applied to the digital outputs but it currently doesnt. An inconvienence but not a showstopper for me.

Can anyone who has the SA8300HD DVR box and is a TWC NYC customer confirm if the HDTV Setup Wizerd is available to them?

I read about the HDTV Setup Wizard in this (http://www.eatel.com/images/pdf/tv/8300SD_8300HD_QuickRef.pdf) PDF file.

I want to turn on Pass-Through mode and let my Pioneer 5071 plasma handle any signal processing needed.

Can anyone help me out here? Thanks.

Page 4 tells you how to do it, works on mine. The "Press Guide and Info" is on the box, not the remote.

Page 4 tells you how to do it, works on mine. The "Press Guide and Info" is on the box, not the remote.

Must be Time Warner Cable of NEW YORK that's the problem.

They sometimes leave off features which other regions have available.

Must be Time Warner Cable of NEW YORK that's the problem.

They sometimes leave off features which other regions have available.

TWCNYC is the source of many problems, but not this. The features you describe are found in DVRs running SARA, not Passport. While there is no "pass-through" mode denominated as such, the same result can be achieved by selecting all output formats in the 8300HD's Setup/Advanced Setup menus.

DaveHancock,

The problem is that if the TV does not do 5.1, then the 8300 will not pass 5.1 to the TV over HDMI so that 5.1 can then be sent to an AVR. Some folks want to go from the 8300 to the TV via HDMI and then from the TV to an AVR via HDMI with no other A/V connections at all. Obviously this does not work (SARA nor Passport) and an optical audio connection needs to be used from the 8300 to the AVR.

I'm sure HDMI is designed to work with repeaters, but even if some folks think the TV is acting as a repeater, I don't know that it is from an HDMI spec standpoint. If the TV software or whatever are not programmed to respond as a repeater, then the 8300 is behaving correctly IMHO. If, however, the 8300 does not work with repeaters, then the 8300 is certainly at fault.

DaveHancock,

The problem is that if the TV does not do 5.1, then the 8300 will not pass 5.1 to the TV over HDMI so that 5.1 can then be sent to an AVR. Some folks want to go from the 8300 to the TV via HDMI and then from the TV to an AVR via HDMI with no other A/V connections at all.I believe that the design of HDMI as a carrier of audio intends for the AVR to serve the role of repeater, rendering the sound portion of the stream and passing all of it to the display. As such, the AVR would be the sink directly communicated to by the STB, which should tell it that it can do 5.1 output. Multiple HDMI sources would plug into the AVR and video from any of them would be switched from there to the display:

http://www.electronichouse.com/asset/4086.html

Mike & Dave,

Yes, I understand your points regarding audio via the HDMI cable. But many of the complaints (and it looked to me like the recent discussions related to new people having problems) are with people making DIRECT HDMI connections from the 8300HD to a display, and unable to make a separate digital audio connection to a surround receiver get 5.1.

I made that pretty clear:I don't know about Passport (I'm stuck with SARA - but perhaps I should be thankful), but 8300s with recent versions of SARA do have an override to enable the digital audio outputs (both coax and fiber) to provide the 5.1 stream to a separate srround sound decoder, NO MATTER WHAT THE DISPLAY TELLS THE 8300HD. So if this is a problem (apparently it is), it is a PASSPORT problem ONLY.

Mike,

I wholeheartedly agree, but I still have to go back to the original poster and his desire to only use HDMI from the 8300 through the TV to the AVR. We got off on an HDMI discussion tangent yet again when all that really had to be said was that he can't do it his way, this is not Burger King. :) He has to use an audio cable of some sort from the 8300 to the AVR or he will not get 5.1 to the AVR, period. He also doesn't want the AVR on all the time, so that leaves out using it as the repeater.

When I first set up my HT, I didn't want to always use my AVR either, but that desire was short lived as I realized much/most of what I watched, I used the AVR anyway. And, I asked myself why I bought all this stuff if I wasn't going to use it all the time. Options are nice, but sometimes they are just options and not really all that useful, just more confusion and frustration. :)

And is any wonder why cable companies try to encourage people to use component connections? It's just plain simpler (from a support standpoint)!

Well, you have a point there, but as one who likes to experiment, I can see why folks want to connect things in a way that maybe wasn't intended. In this case, it seems perfectly reasonable to connect the 8300 through the TV to the AVR via HDMI. However, since I think the TV does not meet repeater specs (for lack of a better term), it simply doesn't work as desired. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried or shouldn't eventually work that way. It just means that an alternative connection method needs to be used in the interim.

I think we would all prefer that HDMI, as a single-cable connection, work in all configurations. Unfortunately, HDMI devices don't always extend operability in all the ways we can envision using them. I, for example, would never consider going through my HDTV to the AVR the way the original poster was trying to. I would have gone Mike's route of using the AVR as the repeater/switcher, since it is better designed for that function and probably has better components, etc., to boot. IMHO, why buy it with that capability and then not use it as designed?

Of course, HDTV makers sometimes tout their connectivity and HT control features even if there are better alternatives out there and many people already have the needed components in their HT inventory. Just because Mits or Hits or whatever has HT control modules/features, doesn't mean I have to use them. But, I suppose, they should work if I do use them. :)

In the DVDO VP30 thread (a gigantic thread) Josh Allen of DVDO just posted a very infiormative article explaining the issues with sources, repeaters, sinks HDMI and HDCP.

I hope this is the right place for this, so be kind.

Anyway, I was going to watch "My Name is Earl" recorded to the DVR tonight from our local HD NBC station. The video was fine, but there was absolutely no center channel sound. The other 4 speakers were playing fine.
I have had trouble in the past where I had to go to the Digital Audio options (Menu-->A) and swith from Dolby Digital to 2-Channel and back to DD to get proper DD sound. But tonight, the Digital Audio options menu item is GONE.
I checked my SW version and have been upgraded to 2.5.066 on Passport. I unplugged the DVR, waited, plugged it back, noticed the new software loading screen, but the menu item was still gone.
Is this something that the SW update removed, or did TW (Northeast Ohio) disable it?
It's almost midnight here, but I will be calling them tomorrow.

Thanks.

Not sure if I was the "OP" for the issues of HDMI passed through a TV, but I did notice it and did post some questions. Can't remember getting any responses telling me why there was a problem, but the past 2 days have seen a flood of information so NOW I understand the issue. I think the real crux of it has to do with convenience... as in "our" desire to get to switching things in one place, not two. I pretty much have to switch the TV input, then the AVR input because that's how stuff is routed. Then again, I have only one HDMI device, so it's kinda moot.

However, I am seeing an issue. FYI, I have had an audio cable from my STB to my AVR for years and years (originally with a 8300SD). If any broadcast had DD 5.1, my receiver showed it being decoded. Now that I have the 8300HD, there are a lot more "broadcasts" that have DD 5.1. However, I'm seeing something repeated which I never, ever saw. Best way to describe it is that it drops out of DD 5,1 with no apparent reason. Has happened at the time I turn the box on, has happened right in the middle of watching something (this is noticeable as over-all volume of a DD 5.1 signal is much less than a Pro Logic decoded signal, so I hear a big jump in volume (I know something is up).

There is only one cure, go to the 8300's setup, select another audio source, then back to "Dolby Digital." Now all is right.

Anyone see this? Anyone with a clue as to why it's happening (Passport 1.8.112).

well good old time warner cable strikes YET AGAIN in northeast ohio...they finally upgraded the firmware in our boxes and cable cards after a YEAR of doing nothing....now its passport 2.5.something and its now missing the "audio out" option...it now DEFAULTS to HDMI audio if your hooked up via hdmi, meaning that you can no longer get dolby digital out of the box unless you are hooked up via COMPONENT...of course they just did the upgrade a few days ago, so i was one of the first ones to report this. the guy that came over this morning to put a cable card in my sony 26 inch xbr1 hadnt heard of it..until i showed him. he said hed be talking to the engineers. and along wiht the box screw up, they totally jacked up the cable cards...once he put it into my sony, there were messed up channels, channels on the wrong numbers, and tons of channels that dont even show up. he called it in, and volia, found a tech that said its a known problem....wonderful...dont upgrade firmware for a YEAR then put in a totally screwed up version. another thing messed up with it is the fact that if you tell it to stretch 4:3 content, it stretches ALL content, meaning if you watch a 4:3 digital channel like espn news, then switched to HDNET, youd have to unstretch it...whereas with 1.8.111 it knew 4:3 channels from 16:9 channels. this new version treats all digital channels the same.

hopefully between the techs and my phone calls, the engineers will be working on this crap this week...and i am REALLY pissed about the cable card. he said they have had absoultely NO problems in the past with sony XBR1 LCD tvs.

GOD I HATE TIME WARNER CABLE

I hope this is the right place for this, so be kind.

Anyway, I was going to watch "My Name is Earl" recorded to the DVR tonight from our local HD NBC station. The video was fine, but there was absolutely no center channel sound. The other 4 speakers were playing fine.
I have had trouble in the past where I had to go to the Digital Audio options (Menu-->A) and swith from Dolby Digital to 2-Channel and back to DD to get proper DD sound. But tonight, the Digital Audio options menu item is GONE.
I checked my SW version and have been upgraded to 2.5.066 on Passport. I unplugged the DVR, waited, plugged it back, noticed the new software loading screen, but the menu item was still gone.
Is this something that the SW update removed, or did TW (Northeast Ohio) disable it?
It's almost midnight here, but I will be calling them tomorrow.

Thanks.

read my post above. time warner in ne ohio totally SCREWED UP THEIR ENTIRE SYSTEM with their new upgrades this week. they better get off their ass and fix it asap.

GOD I HATE TIME WARNER CABLE

Well be happy that you don't have Comcast or Adelphia: the Tech would be a contractor, and have absolutely no knowledge of what he was doing (and have no one knowledgable to talk to). If on a scale of 1-10 and you found TW a 3 (I rate them a 7 in our area), Comcast would be a 1!

I have a question that I hope that someone can answer. I have Philips plasma with a SA8300HD DVR using the component outputs. When I watch a 4:3 image the image is not centered in the viewable area of the plasma. It’s off to the right side of the screen. When I zoom using the SA remote I can fill the entire screen but I feel that when I zoom I am losing more of the displayed image on the right side than on the left side. I also have a Samsung OTA receiver that allows me to shift the displayed image left or right and up and down allowing me to center all 4:3 content.

I have searched the settings of the 8300 and can not find any adjustments to the image. I also have entered into the advance settings using a special code for the plasma and have yet to locate any adjustment I can make to the plasma, not to mention being scared to death in these advance settings on the plasma.

Does anybody have a clue how I can shift the image? Maybe I have a bad 8300 and I need to replace it… I have a new OPPO DVD player arriving in the morning and will view a DVD to see if I see the image offset through the DVD player.

I also get a shifting of some 4:3 content to the right from the 8300, and I also get a thin black bar where the image was shifted on the left. I only get this on some stations, FX in particular. I wish FX would finally go HD

I also get a shifting of some 4:3 content to the right from the 8300, and I also get a thin black bar where the image was shifted on the left. I only get this on some stations, FX in particular. I wish FX would finally go HD

I get this too, on most/all SD stations, but only on some (15%) scenes within a show. The black line is about 1/2 inch wide and between the lefthand gray bar produced by the 8300 and the 4:3 image.
Anybody know what causes this?

The black on the left is a blanking error that indicates the incoming network feed to the headend is analog.

I think that this shift to the left of SD content might be the same phenomena that people in San Diego with SA8300HDs are seeing with the digital simulcast channels. (All of the old analog basic/extended-basic channels, about 70 in all, are now simulcast in digital form, and if you're using an STB the digital rendition is what you get when you tune them. The analog channels are still there on the wire). The SD digital tier channels (Variety Pak, Sports Pak, Movie Pak, etc) apparently don't manifest this problem.

I still have my original SA8000HD running the same firmware revision and don't see this on any channel. My guess is that it's caused by some quirk in the MPEG encoding on those channels which the 8300HD handles strangely.

Our BHN system recently upgraded to all digital service and the new encoders show the black blanking error on the left of all incoming analog feeds. So not only is FX SD but it is also analog composite which is the bottom of the quality barrel.

I also get a shifting of some 4:3 content to the right from the 8300, and I also get a thin black bar where the image was shifted on the left. I only get this on some stations, FX in particular. I wish FX would finally go HD

With the OPPO DVD player in 720P the picture is off-centered of the viewable area of my plasma. I guess I can assume that the plasma needs to be adjusted of which I am not sure that it can be without calling out a tech or for that matter if it can be adjusted. Its not off nearly as much as what the SA8300HD is though...

With the OPPO DVD player in 720P the picture is off-centered of the viewable area of my plasma. I guess I can assume that the plasma needs to be adjusted of which I am not sure that it can be without calling out a tech or for that matter if it can be adjusted. Its not off nearly as much as what the SA8300HD is though...
if you had a pioneer, youd be able to adjust the screen position for each input and format. it has come in VERY handy for me and my sa8300hd. all formats from the box are now perfectly centered.

if you had a pioneer, youd be able to adjust the screen position for each input and format. it has come in VERY handy for me and my sa8300hd. all formats from the box are now perfectly centered.

By setting the OPPO to 1080i then the viewing area of the plasma is completely filled. Personally I beleive that the DVD player, SA8300HD, and the Samsung OTA all show the image off-centered. I have to assume that the plasma is at fault.

By setting the OPPO to 1080i then the viewing area of the plasma is completely filled. Personally I beleive that the DVD player, SA8300HD, and the Samsung OTA all show the image off-centered. I have to assume that the plasma is at fault.
what are you talking about? the set doesnt know its an oppo...it just knows its a 1080i signal...and it scales the signal onto the 768 lines of pixels as it would any other 1080i signal over that input. yes i agree though, it is the set...each set scales onto its pixels different than other sets.

Mike,

I have no shift on any channel; analog, digital, digital simulcast, HD. Of course, this could be because my DS channels have not been remapped yet and I still get both the analog and DS. I will keep an eye on this though when that happens in Spetember. I should note I'm using SARA 1.88.19.1 software.

is anyone else in northeast ohio time warner cable having trouble with their sa8300hd and their cable cards??? anyone??? doesnt seem like theres too many NE ohioans on this forum...

what are you talking about? the set doesnt know its an oppo...it just knows its a 1080i signal...and it scales the signal onto the 768 lines of pixels as it would any other 1080i signal over that input. yes i agree though, it is the set...each set scales onto its pixels different than other sets.

I was talking about the OPPO having the ability to switch from 480, 720, and 1080. I know that the plasma can not tell that it is an OPPO player nor did I even state this claim...

what im saying is you dont see all 1080 lines...all HD sets right now have overscan.

Yes, but overscan itself doesn't account for L/R shift. 3-5% Overscan is normal, but generally more symetrical. And if SD is shifted, then it's quite probable that his 1080i is also shifted and he is losing more on one side to overscan if not for the shift. Sounds to me like the set is off and needs some adjustment, should be covered under warranty.

Can someone please tell me why Timewarner does not keep the 8300HD DVR in their local offices? I am having problems with my box after only a month of operation. It freezes when I try to play a recorded program(this is usually after the box is powered on when I get home from work), then after it freezes I will have to reboot it two or three times before it will power up. Now I have to wait for a technician to come by and check it out. These problems seem to get progressively worse every day and I don't want my box to die before the guy comes out.

FWIW I do not see any horizontal shifting... TWC-NYC, Passport 1.8.112

Can someone please tell me why Timewarner does not keep the 8300HD DVR in their local offices?They do in Houston, TX and Shreveport, LA, among other places. Perhaps demand is high enough in your area that they're unable to keep them in stock?

They do in Houston, TX and Shreveport, LA, among other places. Perhaps demand is high enough in your area that they're unable to keep them in stock?The only thing I that customer service told me was that they kept the HD boxes, the DVR boxes but not the HD DVR boxes in house. I guess I am just used to being able to take my problematic cable box in and trade it in for a new one at will. Seems like a waste of time to only let a technician deliver a new box to my house.

The only thing I that customer service told me was that they kept the HD boxes, the DVR boxes but not the HD DVR boxes in house. I guess I am just used to being able to take my problematic cable box in and trade it in for a new one at will. Seems like a waste of time to only let a technician deliver a new box to my house.

I'll add a couple of comments:

1) These HD boxes are fairly costly (don't know how much they are now, but around 1 1/2 years ago they were costing the cable companies $425 each) - so the cable company may be trying to avoid having too much inventory on hand.

2) The 8300HD boxes are sensitive to signal level. They may be trying to make sure that your signal level is not the cause of the problem.

Sounds to me like the set is off and needs some adjustment, should be covered under warranty.If it's the same problem as seen in San Diego, it is not due to any misadjustment of the television. A number of people have reported seeing exactly the same shifted image phenomena, only on the new digital simulcast channels (not on the digital cable tier channels).

is anyone else in northeast ohio time warner cable having trouble with their sa8300hd and their cable cards??? anyone??? doesnt seem like theres too many NE ohioans on this forum...
BUMP!!!

Can someone please tell me why Timewarner does not keep the 8300HD DVR in their local offices? I am having problems with my box after only a month of operation. It freezes when I try to play a recorded program(this is usually after the box is powered on when I get home from work), then after it freezes I will have to reboot it two or three times before it will power up. Now I have to wait for a technician to come by and check it out. These problems seem to get progressively worse every day and I don't want my box to die before the guy comes out.
when i first got my box, i had hdmi problems...took it to the local office and got another sa8300hd...this is time warner in akron oh.

I'm trying the 8300 with a D-VHS deck and can't get a reliable lock via firewire- Someone in the JVC thread responded that 8300 doesnt have reliable firewire out - Does any time warner box (I'm in NYC) have reliable firewire that can be recorded with D-VHS?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that many boxes have been swapped out when a simple hard reboot would have fixed the problem. How many times have we suggested a reboot in this thread? How many other users who don't read this thread had the same problem and swapped the box simply because they could just run down to the cableco store?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that many boxes have been swapped out when a simple hard reboot would have fixed the problem. How many times have we suggested a reboot in this thread? How many other users who don't read this thread had the same problem and swapped the box simply because they could just run down to the cableco store?

I don't doubt that, but how many DEFECTIVE boxes have been returned, had a cursory depot level check, and returned to a paying customer as a "good" unit.
:eek:

Yeah, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it? :)

I'm using iRecord 0.4.0a (23) to record HD files off my SA8300HD (passport). Can't get stuff to play, even if recording the local CBS HD channel (255). If I play .m2t file in VLC and it is all choppy. I don't know if this has anything to do with it... it says tuner unit yes but no tape unit in the irecord 1394 tab... not sure. If I try to open the recorded files in MPEG Streamclip, i get the error message:

File open error: first part of file is not valid.

So what's wrong with the files? They shouldn't be 5c encoded since they are local. EMI also says Freely Copy. Anybody have a clue?!?!?

Thanks,
V

I was running 1.8.112 and now have 2.5.006.

I used to be able to get to the diagnostic screens by holding in the EXIT button on the front of the box, then when "diag" appeared, pressed 1999.

That no longer works. Does anyone know how I get to the Diagnostic screens on 2.5.006?

Yes, but overscan itself doesn't account for L/R shift. 3-5% Overscan is normal, but generally more symetrical. And if SD is shifted, then it's quite probable that his 1080i is also shifted and he is losing more on one side to overscan if not for the shift. Sounds to me like the set is off and needs some adjustment, should be covered under warranty.

DoubleDAZ, this is what I am talking about. I beleive the display is at fault. I was able enter the service menu but did not see anything that would allow me to shift the image to the left.

Ok, let's summarize for those who think the problem is not the TV and may be related to the dgital simulcast issue in San Diego:

1. You see a shift on ALL non-HD channels, 2-99 and above 100. You don't see it on HD channels, but that is because they fill the screen and you think you are missing some of the image because of the shift. I suspect if you only enabled 480i, you would see the shift on HD channels too.

2. You have an OTA receiver that also has the shift, but it lets you adjust the position to eliminate the shift.

3. You received an OPPO DVD player and it also has the shift.

4. You have checked with your cableco and no one else is having the problem. You have, haven't you? :)

Call me silly, but this certainly seems to indicate a problem with the TV.

Isn't the TV still under warranty? If so, why not give them a call? Or, try to find a thread/forum somewhere dealing with that model TV to see if someone there can help. This thread deals with the 8300 and I think you realize by now there are no position controls available on the 8300. Unless my summary is wrong, I just don't think it's the 8300.

I do have one more question/thought though. Do you see a shift if you connect your cable directly to the TV bypassing the 8300?

Ok, let's summarize for those who think the problem is not the TV and may be related to the dgital simulcast issue in San Diego:

1. You see a shift on ALL non-HD channels, 2-99 and above 100. You don't see it on HD channels, but that is because they fill the screen and you think you are missing some of the image because of the shift. I suspect if you only enabled 480i, you would see the shift on HD channels too.

2. You have an OTA receiver that also has the shift, but it lets you adjust the position to eliminate the shift.

3. You received an OPPO DVD player and it also has the shift.

4. You have checked with your cableco and no one else is having the problem. You have, haven't you? :)

Call me silly, but this certainly seems to indicate a problem with the TV.

Isn't the TV still under warranty? If so, why not give them a call? Or, try to find a thread/forum somewhere dealing with that model TV to see if someone there can help. This thread deals with the 8300 and I think you realize by now there are no position controls available on the 8300. Unless my summary is wrong, I just don't think it's the 8300.

I do have one more question/thought though. Do you see a shift if you connect your cable directly to the TV bypassing the 8300?

I understand this is for the 8300. I also understand and you agreed for me to ask these questions in this forum through a PM I had with you. At the time I was hoping that it was the 8300 and that this lame ASS receiver and that Cox could help me in directing me a work around much like the Samsung gave me in having adjustments. The plasma is out of warranty so here the bottom line. I either pay to have it repaired or except it as it is. I would rather except it as it is as I did not pay a dime for the plasma and received it as a new plasma over 16 months ago.

Thank you and I will not return to 8300 forum agaIN...

I was running 1.8.112 and now have 2.5.006.

I used to be able to get to the diagnostic screens by holding in the EXIT button on the front of the box, then when "diag" appeared, pressed 1999.

That no longer works. Does anyone know how I get to the Diagnostic screens on 2.5.006?
2.5.006 is a piece of crap. this i what i have now and there are menu items missing, stretch mode for 4:3 used to only affect 4:3 channels, but now it affects all channels incorrectly...they really screwed up in this release and they better get fixing stuff...diagnostics on my time warner system is on channel 611, have to enter it directly. and they TOTALLY screwed up cable cards.

2.5.006 is a piece of crap. this i what i have now and there are menu items missing, stretch mode for 4:3 used to only affect 4:3 channels, but now it affects all channels incorrectly...they really screwed up in this release and they better get fixing stuff...diagnostics on my time warner system is on channel 611, have to enter it directly. and they TOTALLY screwed up cable cards.
Nice answer. :rolleyes:

"I used to be able to get to the diagnostic screens by holding in the EXIT button on the front of the box, then when "diag" appeared, pressed 1999.

That no longer works. Does anyone know how I get to the Diagnostic screens on 2.5.006?"
Try holding EXIT and SELECT until dIAg appears.

Nice answer. :rolleyes:

"I used to be able to get to the diagnostic screens by holding in the EXIT button on the front of the box, then when "diag" appeared, pressed 1999.

That no longer works. Does anyone know how I get to the Diagnostic screens on 2.5.006?"
Try holding EXIT and SELECT until dIAg appears.

Go to channel 999.

Go to channel 999.
It's different in different locales. Mine is 611.

Tidbit: when I went to pick up my 8300HD (mid May), the guy picked it off of a huge stack of opened 8300HDs (I assumed they were 8300HDs as he just grabbed the top one). I was slightly taken aback, almost thought to say "hey, I want a new one, not a refurb." I even noticed that it had several very faint round black marks (like other equipment had been on top of it). I let it go because I've actually bought a lot of "refurbished" equipment and always kinda felt that such equipment had been tested more than "off the assembly line" goods.

Then I noticed a manufacturer date of 03/2006, so this obviously is a very new unit.

Moral? Check the label on the bottom of the unit, it will tell you when the thing rolled off a production line.

Thank you and I will not return to 8300 forum again...I think you misunderstood my point about this thread/forum, but if that's the way you want to be, so be it, now I'm sorry we tried to help in the first place. :(

I directed you here because your initial post made it sound like an 8300 problem and there are a lot more users here that might have been able to help. Further posts make it sound more like a TV problem and I think you've exhausted all this thread has to offer to try and solve the problem if it's not the 8300. The next logical step is to find someone who can advise further on what you can do to realign the TV. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Good to see it's not only me who gets his wires crossed with others here occasionally . . . :)

I used to be able to get to the diagnostic screens by holding in the EXIT button on the front of the box, then when "diag" appeared, pressed 1999.

That no longer works. Does anyone know how I get to the Diagnostic screens on 2.5.006?I get to the multi-page diags by holding both SEL and EXIT until "dIAG" appears in the LEDs, then pressing EXIT again to get into diags. You can use the INFO button on the remote to find out what channel it's on now (like pepar, it's 611 on my box).

Once enabled with SEL+EXIT, you can always enter the multi-page diags by pressing the EXIT button on the STB (not the remote), even when both tuners are in use recording; of course, if both tuners are in use, it can be tricky to get out of the diag screens :). My box is running 2.5.051 (since late last year, my provider has pushed four 2.5.xxx releases), but the diags work the same and they always did.

As on your box, the STRETCH and ZOOM modes work on all channels now, but they can be useful when an HD channel is showing content in SD format with black sidebars; sometimes there is no widescreen version of the program and sometimes there is, but the national feed is screwed up, or someone at the station forgot to "throw the switch". Sometimes it's letterboxed as well, and ZOOM will fill the screen with it.

I'd like to see them implement two separate ZOOM/STRETCH/NORMAL state memories, one for SD channels and one for HD ones. I sometimes use ZOOM for letterboxed programming on the SD channels and when I tune an HD channe (or watch an HD recording) l I forget to switch back to NORMAL and watch a clipped image until I realize it, typically due to the station-ID bug being missing or cut in half.

Good to see it's not only me who gets his wires crossed with others here occasionally . . . :)Sad to say it happens all too often. Maybe I didn't say it right, but I really was trying to help. I'm sure there is a thread somewhere dealing with the 32W6 HDTV. IMHO, you just can't expect to stumble on an answer to a TV problem like that in this thread. I think we did a pretty good job tracing the problem to the TV vs the 8300, now it seems like time to concentrate on finding someone with some knowledge of the TV itself. I did direct him here, but only because he posted a new thread that most folks would not have read. As you and I know, most forums start new threads for new questions, but AVS prefers huge threads dealing with mulitple questions to keep the info in one place for quicker reference/search.

Sad to say it happens all too often. Maybe I didn't say it right . .
Sometimes it's a combination of what seems to me like a witty retort that comes across as a smart a22 answer that catches the other person in just the wrong way. (I'm sure those reading this with whom I had a row will smile.) ;)

I'd like to see them implement two separate ZOOM/STRETCH/NORMAL state memories, one for SD channels and one for HD ones. I sometimes use ZOOM for letterboxed programming on the SD channels and when I tune an HD channe (or watch an HD recording) l I forget to switch back to NORMAL and watch a clipped image until I realize it, typically due to the station-ID bug being missing or cut in half.
mike scott, this was the point of my post...the box DID THAT IN RELEASE 1.8.111...it would stretch 4:3 SD channels only and leave 16:9 alone...hell it still even has it in the menu!! but it doesnt work! it DOESNT do that now with 2.5.006...thats ONE of my beefs...and they will keep hearing about it until it is fixed.

mike scott, this was the point of my post...the box DID THAT IN RELEASE 1.8.111...it would stretch 4:3 SD channels only and leave 16:9 alone...hell it still even has it in the menu!! but it doesnt work! it DOESNT do that now with 2.5.006...thats ONE of my beefs...and they will keep hearing about it until it is fixed.
If "they're" hearing about it, good. If it's just US hearing about it . . .

Hello all,

Comcast just configured my HD service and left me an SA8000 unit. Is it worth the hassle of having them upgrade to an SA8300?

I have an HL-R5078W and a Denon 3086.

Thanks.

Hello all,

Comcast just configured my HD service and left me an SA8000 unit. Is it worth the hassle of having them upgrade to an SA8300?

I have an HL-R5078W and a Denon 3086.

Thanks.


YES

If "they're" hearing about it, good. If it's just US hearing about it . . .
oh theyre going to hear about it...along with about how bad they totally screwed up their cable cards that had worked well for over a year...

I think that this shift to the left of SD content might be the same phenomena that people in San Diego with SA8300HDs are seeing with the digital simulcast channels. (All of the old analog basic/extended-basic channels, about 70 in all, are now simulcast in digital form, and if you're using an STB the digital rendition is what you get when you tune them. The analog channels are still there on the wire). The SD digital tier channels (Variety Pak, Sports Pak, Movie Pak, etc) apparently don't manifest this problem.

I still have my original SA8000HD running the same firmware revision and don't see this on any channel. My guess is that it's caused by some quirk in the MPEG encoding on those channels which the 8300HD handles strangely.
When TWC-SD "upgraded" their system for Digital Simulcast, they had to add QAM Modulators for six multiplexed channels at each Neighborhood Node (each node serves about 400 homes). There must be some sort of defect in the new equipment....and some nodes would be unaffected if they recycled older QAM Modulators.

;) ;) :cool: I've actually enjoyed the debug process for the TV vs 8300 posts. Who among us hasn't considered all elements from head end to eyeballs in figuring out what the %$&^^*(&%$ is going on from time-to-time?

As DoubleDAZ points out, "default erase time" is not a feature of Passport. DanXP's STB is running SARA, not Passport--he asked his question in the wrong thread. For future reference, you want the "SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=471859)" thread.

BTW, didn't there used to be a huge thread like this one for DVRs running SARA on TWC systems? I can't find it now.

haven't checked this thread in a while...

i never mentioned SARA in my original post... i'm using PASSPORT... someone else simply volunteered their SARA firmware version... thanks for the replies tho... i guess i'll have to live with going into each recording manually and setting it up as "save until manually erased"...

um... while i'm here... can anyone tell me what the proper output should be for an EDTV... i currently have it outputting all 4... 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i... is that recommended?

thanks.

My fault, I didn't check the thread I was reading when I posted the procedure for SARA. Of course, it couldn't have been too important if it took 20 days to check back for a reply. :)

Re the EDTV. I asume it's native resolution is around 480, so it would seem to be a matter of whether the 8300 does a better job outputting everything as 480 (down-converting) or letting the TV do it using your current settings. It's easy enough to check. Just enable only 480i (or 480p) to see if the PQ changes from what it is now on the HD channels that are 720p and 1080i.

um... while i'm here... can anyone tell me what the proper output should be for an EDTV... i currently have it outputting all 4... 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i... is that recommended?

thanks.
yes, i am sure that your tv will have a better scaler than the cable box...so let your tv scale the channel's native rate, especially if it is a Panny EDTV.

Sad to say it happens all too often. Maybe I didn't say it right, but I really was trying to help. I'm sure there is a thread somewhere dealing with the 32W6 HDTV. IMHO, you just can't expect to stumble on an answer to a TV problem like that in this thread. I think we did a pretty good job tracing the problem to the TV vs the 8300, now it seems like time to concentrate on finding someone with some knowledge of the TV itself. I did direct him here, but only because he posted a new thread that most folks would not have read. As you and I know, most forums start new threads for new questions, but AVS prefers huge threads dealing with mulitple questions to keep the info in one place for quicker reference/search.

With the OPPO set at 480 and having the plasma set at 4:3 I noticed that the image was perfectly centered in my plasma screen. This got me thinking that the plasma was AOK. Prior to getting the SA8300HD I had a SA8300 and never recalled seeing the image off-centered on the plasma. With SA8300HD in hand I return the receiver to Cox this morning and received a new receiver. What I have now is a receiver displaying the image centered in my plasma as it was met to be.

That's great! But I thought you said earlier that you thought the OPPO was off-centered too? And what about the OTA tuner you said you had to adjust? Did I just dream all that?

Oh well, problem solved, on to the next one. :)

yes, i am sure that your tv will have a better scaler than the cable box...so let your tv scale the channel's native rate, especially if it is a Panny EDTV.

so you're saying i should leave the output to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i? and yes i do have the panny 42pwd7uy...

thanks for the replies dtrell and doubledaz...

how does one change the default erase recording time from the current (is it 2wks?) to "save until manually erased"?If your STB is running Passport Echo then this question doesn't make sense. SARA does have a default recording retention time, which, out of the box, is set to 14 days. In Passport Echo there's no such animal--just "Save Until Space Is Needed" and "Save Until I Delete".

Are you sure that you're using Passport? Did you ask this question after reading an SARA manual?

That's great! But I thought you said earlier that you thought the OPPO was off-centered too? And what about the OTA tuner you said you had to adjust? Did I just dream all that?

Oh well, problem solved, on to the next one. :)

For what it's worth I had tried the OPPO in 720P only with the TV set to widescreen, this causing the image to be slightly pushed to right and not completely covering the entire plasma screen in all directions. As for the Samsung SIR-T451 OTA receiver I had to adjust it to fit the plasma, but who knows the condition the receiver was in from the factory. The old SA8300HD receiver the SD image was 1.5 inches to the right of being centered and I can assume that the HD image was also to the right, this leading me to believe I was not seeing the entire image that was intended to be seen.

Thanks for your help...

so you're saying i should leave the output to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i?
yes

yes, i am sure that your tv will have a better scaler than the cable box...so let your tv scale the channel's native rate, especially if it is a Panny EDTV.
I have tried this myself and have gotten some very wierd results, "rainbow" effects and different colors floating around on screen, also some channels went very dark. setting the box back to 1080i fixed it, my tv supports all resolutions and I have never seen anything like it before.

If your STB is running Passport Echo then this question doesn't make sense. SARA does have a default recording retention time, which, out of the box, is set to 14 days. In Passport Echo there's no such animal--just "Save Until Space Is Needed" and "Save Until I Delete".

Are you sure that you're using Passport? Did you ask this question after reading an SARA manual?

yes, i have passport...

my main concern is that recordings are automatically deleted after 14 days even if there's plenty of space left... i was trying to see if there was a way to default it from 14 days to "save until manually erased" or something like that...

i've lost a number of recordings because i forgot to manually go in and set it so that it doesn't eventually erase it... i also lost some recordings for no reason even before that 14 day window (and there was plenty of space)...

perhaps twc does this intentionally so you don't keep a copyrighted show forever... even tho you can do it manually.

...
I'd like to see them implement two separate ZOOM/STRETCH/NORMAL state memories, one for SD channels and one for HD ones. I sometimes use ZOOM for letterboxed programming on the SD channels and when I tune an HD channe (or watch an HD recording) l I forget to switch back to NORMAL and watch a clipped image until I realize it, typically due to the station-ID bug being missing or cut in half.

I think this is a TV specific thing... it seems to work for me (there's a caveat). I have 2 situations where I deviate from "normal." I want black, not gray bars, so I set the 8300 (Passport 1.8.112) to 4:3 stretch, but the TV to 4.3 (that "overrides" the 8300s stretched image and results in black pillars).

Second is dealing with SD channels doing faux widescreen (i.e. looking widescreen inside a 4:3 box, or black bars on all 4 sides). I manually change the TV to zoom. I can switch to any HD channel (the TV switches to normal 16:9 mode) and switch back (channel surfing, don't ya know!) and the SD channels goes into zoom mode, just like I left it.

The caveat is that this set-up at times stops functioning. It's like either the TV or the 8300 "loses" it's memory. Typically it's when I enter either devices service menu, which I do to look but not to change anything. Then sometimes it seems to happen by some random event. Bottom line is that I need to every now and then re-set this stuff.

Passport does NOT automatically delete programs unless the space is needed.

I really don't think TWC keeps track of what we have stored on our DVRs, though they could if they wanted to. I don't recall having any program just mysteriously get deleted either.

yes, i have passport...

my main concern is that recordings are automatically deleted after 14 days even if there's plenty of space left... i was trying to see if there was a way to default it from 14 days to "save until manually erased" or something like that...

i've lost a number of recordings because i forgot to manually go in and set it so that it doesn't eventually erase it... i also lost some recordings for no reason even before that 14 day window (and there was plenty of space)...

perhaps twc does this intentionally so you don't keep a copyrighted show forever... even tho you can do it manually.

Hmm, it seems my experience is way different from yours... maybe it's the rev. I'm ancient, 1.8.112. Observation demonstrates that the 8300 calculates based on what is recorded and what is scheduled to record in the future. When it "sees" there's going to be an issue, it makes it obvious in the list of recorded programs. The threshold is when your oldest recorded program might get erased in 2 days time. 2 days left and you get an icon in the list, but the other recorded programs don't get an icon, but they do get a notation in the details of 3 days, 4 days left, like that.

Of course, I get to see this more frequently with the 8300HD because it holds so much less HD content than my old 8000SD did. I'm actually quite happy with this as an interface.

Hmm, it seems my experience is way different from yours... maybe it's the rev. I'm ancient, 1.8.112. Observation demonstrates that the 8300 calculates based on what is recorded and what is scheduled to record in the future. When it "sees" there's going to be an issue, it makes it obvious in the list of recorded programs. The threshold is when your oldest recorded program might get erased in 2 days time. 2 days left and you get an icon in the list, but the other recorded programs don't get an icon, but they do get a notation in the details of 3 days, 4 days left, like that.

Of course, I get to see this more frequently with the 8300HD because it holds so much less HD content than my old 8000SD did. I'm actually quite happy with this as an interface.

could it be i have a problem with my dvr? i'm gonna have to check my version...

yes, i have passport...

my main concern is that recordings are automatically deleted after 14 days even if there's plenty of space left... i was trying to see if there was a way to default it from 14 days to "save until manually erased" or something like that...Again, as I've stated before and hall just amplified, Passport Echo is not capable of automatically deleting a program after a period of time. I've had things which weren't marked "Save Until I Delete" hang around for months (movies that I had a mild interest in watching but never got around to). As long as the box doesn't need the space, it will not delete it.

Where are you located? If I knew that, it's possible that I could find out for sure if your local TWC provider is using Passport or SARA.

Again, as I've stated before and hall just amplified, Passport Echo is not capable of automatically deleting a program after a period of time. I've had things which weren't marked "Save Until I Delete" hang around for months (movies that I had a mild interest in watching but never got around to). As long as the box doesn't need the space, it will not delete it.

Where are you located? If I knew that, it's possible that I could find out for sure if your local TWC provider is using Passport or SARA.

Passport will look at you 'to do' list of things to record and give you an idea when something will have to be deleted in order to do a recording. When its time for that recording to start and there isnt space... it erases the oldest thing that isnt flagged 'keep till I delete'. It puts those little hourglasses next to them saying how long it predicts it will last before deleting. However, if you delete something newer or cancel recordings, it removes the hourglasses and the stuff stays longer.

Again, as I've stated before and hall just amplified, Passport Echo is not capable of automatically deleting a program after a period of time. I've had things which weren't marked "Save Until I Delete" hang around for months (movies that I had a mild interest in watching but never got around to). As long as the box doesn't need the space, it will not delete it.

Where are you located? If I knew that, it's possible that I could find out for sure if your local TWC provider is using Passport or SARA.

i'm in north jersey... are passport and passport echo different? i'm quite sure i have passport as that's the first thing i see when the box reboots...

i was going to check the version/revision #...

as for automatically deleting, for some reason, it does delete programs without my consent, whether it's 14 days old or less... it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen...

Passport will look at you 'to do' list of things to record and give you an idea when something will have to be deleted in order to do a recording. When its time for that recording to start and there isnt space... it erases the oldest thing that isnt flagged 'keep till I delete'. It puts those little hourglasses next to them saying how long it predicts it will last before deleting. However, if you delete something newer or cancel recordings, it removes the hourglasses and the stuff stays longer.
Actually, it erases the recorded content that is highest on the list and is not marked for manual deletion only. (It is possible to re-order the list for this purpose.)

Actually, it erases the recorded content that is highest on the list and is not marked for manual deletion only. (It is possible to re-order the list for this purpose.)Highest? It erases the things on the bottom of the list first. (Maybe you consider the bottom of the list to be its highest point :)). It puts new recordings at the top of the list, so if you don't manually reorder the list, it will be in order by time and date, most recent recordings at the top. By deleting things on the bottom, it's dumping the oldest stuff (or stuff that you've manually moved down there).

DanXP--I browsed your postings elsewhere in the forums and surmised that you are in Fort Lee, NJ. I took a look at the "TWC New York & New Jersey" site and, though I didn't find any online STB manuals, I did find a page on the interactive program guide (here (http://www.timewarnercable.com/nyandnj/products/cable/ipg.html)) and from that I can tell that you are using Passport Echo (Passport Echo is the version of Passport for DVRs). The version of the guide shown is antiquated but recognizable; mine looks like the ones in the Passport Echo Getting Started Guide (http://www.pioneerbroadband.com/pdf/passportecho1.6gettingstarted.pdf) (old--it's for 1.6.xxx and I haven't heard of anyone using anything older than 1.8.xxx at this time). Take a look at that guide and confirm that it's describing your interface. The main difference in the guides in Passport and SARA is the use of the A, B and C buttons--assignment of them to "Time", "Theme", "Search" (formerely "Title") functions is definitely Passport. (On the SARA program guide they're assigned to "Browse By", "Date" and "Go Back").

I can't explain the automatic timed deletions you seem to be seeing, but it isn't a normal feature of Passport Echo and I haven't heard anyone describe a DVR running Passport doing that before.

Can you determine what revision of Passport you're running? Get into the multi-page diagnostics; firmware revisions are located on one of the pages near the top. (To enable the diags, press and hold down and SEL and EXIT buttons on the STB--not the remote--until "dIAG" appears in the LEDs, then release the buttons and press EXIT once more to display the diagnostics. Use the up and down arrow buttons on the remote to flip through the diagnostic pages. To get out of the diags, just tune to another channel).

Highest? It erases the things on the bottom of the list first. (Maybe you consider the bottom of the list to be its highest point :)). It puts new recordings at the top of the list, so if you don't manually reorder the list, it will be in order by time and date, most recent recordings at the top. By deleting things on the bottom, it's dumping the oldest stuff (or stuff that you've manually moved down there).
Ummm, yes, highest on the erase list . . .