Having the guide is 100% better than nothing, but making it very much nicer would not be beyond the third worst freshman in community college computer classes. I see no real technical issues to stop it either, its a combination of they don't care what we want since there is no real competition yet, and if I am forced to page through HBO in spanish maybe I will want to subscribe.

I think getting through the guide is pretty quick. I'm sure a lot of you already know, but pressing the "A" button will go from 100 to 200 to 300 etc and pressing a number and then the right arrow will go forward by that number of days (ie press 3 and then the right arrow to skip ahead 3 days on the guide).

Another trick for the guide is I set each premium primary channel, plus HBO HD, SHO HD and the start of the HDXtra tier (InHD) as favorites. Very quick to get to each section... BUT if you set 201 for HBO, it adds 80, etc.

Oh, there is a LOT of stuff they could do to make the guide actually good (having to manually load in days and only having 6 days when they promise 2 weeks is my main peeve). But it's at least usable.What you have is 7 days, including today, which is why you can't go forward or back any more than 6 days, if you're at the start or end of the 7. Where did "they" (whoever "they" are :)) promise you 2 weeks worth of programming? I didn't get that same guarantee.

mikeford, I'm nor sure that he makes it entirely clear, but Riverside_Guy is pointing out that if you set up favorite channels, while viewing the guide you can skip to the listings for the next favorite channel with the FAV button.

Any idea when TWC NYC is going to update Passport Echo to 2.7x? Supposed to be new features in that release, and seems like it's been available for roll-out for a year now.

I also read, however, that TWC wants to ditch both Passport and Sara for their own homegrown IPG.

Any idea when TWC NYC is going to update Passport Echo to 2.7x? Supposed to be new features in that release, and seems like it's been available for roll-out for a year now.

I also read, however, that TWC wants to ditch both Passport and Sara for their own homegrown IPG.

There are three (!) versions of SA8300HD software floating around New York City right now--Staten Island is on 2.5.066 (the latest TWC release), Queens is on 2.5.005 and the rest of the city is s-t-i-l-l on 1.8.112--and has been for what seems over a year.

I read nothing about anyone getting 2.7 anywhere on the TWC system yet and I'd be happy if I got a 2.5 series release in Manhattan.

-Mike

There are three (!) versions of SA8300HD software floating around New York City right now--Staten Island is on 2.5.066 (the latest TWC release), Queens is on 2.5.005 and the rest of the city is s-t-i-l-l on 1.8.112--and has been for what seems over a year.

I read nothing about anyone getting 2.7 anywhere on the TWC system yet and I'd be happy if I got a 2.5 series release in Manhattan.

-Mike

I guess there's some logic to that. Gives them a wider platform base to test out versions for bugs and other issues.

I'm in Queens, and definitely have a 2.5xx (not able to check it this minute).

Time Warner does seem to segregate their operating areas, ala Brooklyn/Queens, Manhattan, etc. Maybe there's some autonomy in these regions for technical upgrades.

But none of the versions you mentioned is really up-to-date as far as Passport is concerned. But, given TW's intent to get off the Passport/Sara platforms, maybe we've seen some of the last of the updates.

Here's a blurb from an October 2005 article from CED magazine:

"Although Aptiv will be much more nimble without Pioneer in the picture, it will, by the same token, have to face some major challenges alone. Chief among them is Time Warner Cable's decision to migrate to in-house navigation products, and to eventually phase out Passport and Scientific-Atlanta's SARA platform."

Here's a blurb from an October 2005 article from CED magazine:

"Although Aptiv will be much more nimble without Pioneer in the picture, it will, by the same token, have to face some major challenges alone. Chief among them is Time Warner Cable's decision to migrate to in-house navigation products, and to eventually phase out Passport and Scientific-Atlanta's SARA platform."
To save money? Perhaps, but I think it's more likely it's about branding and standardizing company-wide on a single UI version. I wouldn't be surprised if SATA support goes by the wayside either as they try to crank up the VOD revenue stream.

Just my $.03.

What you have is 7 days, including today, which is why you can't go forward or back any more than 6 days, if you're at the start or end of the 7. Where did "they" (whoever "they" are :)) promise you 2 weeks worth of programming? I didn't get that same guarantee.

mikeford, I'm nor sure that he makes it entirely clear, but Riverside_Guy is pointing out that if you set up favorite channels, while viewing the guide you can skip to the listings for the next favorite channel with the FAV button.

I'm pretty sure that in some marketing materials (TWC is the subject of the thread, isn't it?) I read it said something about 2 weeks of programming information. My guess is that it may be hard to find this... but I KNOW I saw it at some point.

Indeed, I sure could have been clearer!

Curious, was there a specific statement by TWC that it is going to migrate to it's own software for it's "cable boxes?"

Curious, was there a specific statement by TWC that it is going to migrate to it's own software for it's "cable boxes?"
Re: Post 4506: I didn't see an attribution, but my hunch is that it's from an analyst.

Well, there's an interview with someone from TWC corporate here (http://www.ct-magazine.com/archives/video/video2006_0608.html) about their plans for widespread deployment of their navigator and here (http://www.opentv.com/about/releases/2006_0606.html)'s a PR on the topic. The main thrust here is not so much saving money, but with the coming of CableCARD V2, they have to support CableCARDs and OCAP on even their leased boxes, so the navigator might as well be written to run on OCAP devices. With that, they can run it on your CableCARD V2 television, with just a CableCARD; no STB required. If DCAS becomes popular, they can run their guide on DCAS devices without even a CableCARD.

RE: TW's New Digital Navigator.

There has been some discussion on the SA8300 HD Tips & Tricks - SARA Thread:
Post 3493 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8235787&&#post8235787)
Mike's links are consistant with this information. It appears that this is Navigation Middleware that sits on top of the STB OS (SARA or Passport).

Mike,
As I've understood it, from all the releases, etc. I have read, this has less to do with CableCard 2.0 than it does with OCAP (Open Cable Applications Platform), an initiative of Cable Labs. Version 2 of the OCAP is the current standard. CableCard 2.0 is one device that can meet this standard (as are most current digital cable STBs).

Other Links of Interest:
Time Warner/Nebraska/Mystro (http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mystro/page_1.html)
OCAP Primer (http://www.ctam.com/ocap/)

RE: TW's New Digital Navigator.

There has been some discussion on the SA8300 HD Tips & Tricks - SARA Thread:
Post 3493 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8235787&&#post8235787)
Mike's links are consistant with this information. It appears that this is Navigation Middleware that sits on top of the STB OS (SARA or Passport).Actually, the STB's core OS is PowerTV; SARA and Passport are applications on top of that.
Mike,
As I've understood it, from all the releases, etc. I have read, this has less to do with CableCard 2.0 than it does with OCAP (Open Cable Applications Platform), an initiative of Cable Labs. Version 2 of the OCAP is the current standard. CableCard 2.0 is one device that can meet this standard (as are most current digital cable STBs).I usually say "Plug-and-Play V2", which consists of Multi-Stream CableCARD (aka, CableCARD V2 or M-CARD) plus OCAP. M-CARDs can authenticate and encrypt/decrypt multiple service streams simultaneously and provide a channel with which to communicate with the cable providers equipment. The backchannel is necessary for interactive services and the multi-stream capability is necessary for implementing multiple-tuner operations. OCAP is a Java-profile-based execution environment which resides on end user devices (televisions, STBs, etc) in which you can run interactive services, like Interactive Program Guide (IPG), Impulse Pay-Per-View (IPPV) and Video On Demand (VOD).

The cable providers hate S-CARD based Plug-and-Play V1, because customers who choose it over leased STBs cannot purchase their IPPV and VOD products, nor use any future interactive services that they might come up with (for instance, my cable bill can be paid using an app running on the STB). Also, they'd eventually like to move many things over to Switched Digital Video for a huge savings in bandwidth; in point of fact, they're going to have to do this in order to compete with the emerging Fiber-To-The-Home service that the phone companies are rolling out (ala Verizon's FiOS), and with D*'s new bandwidth. SDV requires a backchannel and enough intelligence in the end-user device to report what channel or channels are being tuned so that they can be dynamically put on the local neighborhood loop (not necessarily a full OCAP, which is memory intensive). The limitations of Plug-and-Play V1 that the cable providers object to are removed by Plug-and-Play V2.

OpenCable/DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access System) is an emerging standard from CableLabs which removes the necessity for CableCARD (S-CARDs have had some severe interoperability problems), by placing the functionality in the end-user device to download code implementing the proprietary conditional access system protocols between the cable central office and the device. If your television had DCAS and OCAP, you'd be able to subscribe to and view premium services, access IPPV and VOD and run your provider's IPG without having to lease anything or have it installed. Support for DCAS is not mandatory yet (I'm not sure that the standard is finished), but support for OCAP and M-CARDs is mandatory--after some date next year (probably 1 July) the cable providers will be prohibited from leasing STBs with proprietary conditional access built in and will have to distribute CableCARDs with every box that they lease. That was supposed to happen last year, but they got a big extension over the strenuous objections of the CE industry. (A part of the reason for this requirement is to reduce the interoperability problems by making the cable providers dependent on CableCARD working properly).

What you have is 7 days, including today, which is why you can't go forward or back any more than 6 days, if you're at the start or end of the 7. Where did "they" (whoever "they" are :)) promise you 2 weeks worth of programming? I didn't get that same guarantee.

mikeford, I'm nor sure that he makes it entirely clear, but Riverside_Guy is pointing out that if you set up favorite channels, while viewing the guide you can skip to the listings for the next favorite channel with the FAV button.

Things you have to learn in order to use them conveniently are the bane of civilized life. My phone remains uprogrammed, but I have learned how to activate the IRDA and flashlight on my cell, my VCR no longer flashes 12:00, thank you auto time set, but I am not sure I have the spare brain cells to devote to the SA 8300HD right now.

I did play with it last night, curiously it runs out 2 full weeks ahead, but only the first week out will load data. Didn't notice anything I wanted to see in the process, but I was mostly skipping ahead fast to see how it worked.

Next time I will see if I can remember to try some of the tips. Mostly I wish there was just a nice list of all the new programs since I last checked, since I don't really care too much "when" they broadcast, I just want to tag them for recording.

EXCELLENT POSTINGS, Mike!

EXCELLENT POSTINGS, Mike!

Love the post about installing the SATA drive.

Question: I believe I've read earlier in this forum that one drawback to the external drive is that you cannot rewind, fast forward, ets content on the external drive. Is that correct? I'm using Passport Echo 1.8.112

Thanks,
A

Love the post about installing the SATA drive.

Question: I believe I've read earlier in this forum that one drawback to the external drive is that you cannot rewind, fast forward, ets content on the external drive. Is that correct? I'm using Passport Echo 1.8.112

Thanks,
A
That's been the case so far for live TV; "trick-play" features are lost.

Question: I believe I've read earlier in this forum that one drawback to the external drive is that you cannot rewind, fast forward, ets content on the external drive. Is that correct? I'm using Passport Echo 1.8.112.No, not exactly. You can PAUSE, REW, FF, etc (collectively called "trick-play" functions) when viewing recordings; you cannot do it while watching live TV. Even that isn't quite true, since these functions will work again with live television when it starts recording on the internal drive again; it'll record on whichever drive has the most free space, so if you plug in a big external drive, trick-play won't work until you fill it up.

I'm not sure that SATA drives have worked for anyone with 1.8.112, though I recall that someone claimed that it worked for him once months ago, and no one was able to replicate his results. The people using them now have Passport Echo Rev. 2.5.048 and higher.

No, not exactly. You can PAUSE, REW, FF, etc (collectively called "trick-play" functions) when viewing recordings; you cannot do it while watching live TV. Even that isn't quite true, since these functions will work again with live television when it starts recording on the internal drive again; it'll record on whichever drive has the most free space, so if you plug in a big external drive, trick-play won't work until you fill it up.

I'm not sure that SATA drives have worked for anyone with 1.8.112, though I recall that someone claimed that it worked for him once months ago, and no one was able to replicate his results. The people using them now have Passport Echo Rev. 2.5.048 and higher.

Thanks for the tip. I'm not going to buy one yet. I've only had the DVR 3 weeks and I don't think I'm close to filling it up.

How about the two firewire ports on the back? Has anyone been able to put them to use?

Thanks,
A

How about the two firewire ports on the back? Has anyone been able to put them to use?I've read reports in these forums of some limited success in using these ports to record television to D-VHS tape and unprotected content to computers on some cable systems, but even those who've gotten them to work report that it's very flakey.

A question about the hard reboot - Do the recordings still stay on the hard drive? For future reference, yes, reboots don't affect recordings. The "hard" reboot is supposed to do more than simply pulling the plug, if you let it finished all it's work, that is. :)

Sorry if this has been answered but I cannot find what I want to hear anywhere so far. Is there *any* way I can change the grey bars to black bars for 4:3 content? I have a DLP set and do not need the grey bars. They are driving me crazy!

-jrdnyquist

Is there *any* way I can change the grey bars to black bars for 4:3 content? I have a DLP set and do not need the grey bars. They are driving me crazy!No. Sorry.

Hmmm, why would a DLP be any different from an LCD regarding getting rid of the gray pillars?

Sorry if this has been answered but I cannot find what I want to hear anywhere so far. Is there *any* way I can change the grey bars to black bars for 4:3 content? I have a DLP set and do not need the grey bars. They are driving me crazy!

-jrdnyquist

I have the JVClt40fh97. I've removed the grey bars by going into the menu, general settings...

Aspect ratio:
TV type: Standard 4:3
Aspect Ratio: Letterbox 16:9 picture.

finally got the external to work on the 8300hd with 407.5gb total space
forget the first commandment, all praise to the dvr gods

just kidding dont strike me down (*.*)

I have the JVClt40fh97. I've removed the grey bars by going into the menu, general settings...

Aspect ratio:
TV type: Standard 4:3
Aspect Ratio: Letterbox 16:9 picture.And I'll bet your image is cropped top and bottom.

Hmmm, why would a DLP be any different from an LCD regarding getting rid of the gray pillars?Using plasmas or CRT displays (especially older ones), black pillars will cause burn-in much faster than the medium gray ones, which is why they use the color. DLPs, LCoS and LCDs don't have that problem, and newer PDPs have features which lessen the danger. They really should add a black/gray pillar-bar/letterboxing color selection in the General Settings--SARA has that. Some people are extremely bothered by the gray pillar-box, though it's never troubled me.

Changing the AR setting doesn't do anything for me, but this may be because I have the STB convert everything to 1080i. It's possible that if you enable 480p and 480i, your television could be used to put on sidebars, which will probably be black. I set 1080i-only because my television does something ugly when switching formats (the box really should display a blank frame or two until it's done). Moreover, it can't accept 480i over component and will stretch any 4:3 image that it receives in 480p. (480p widescreen DVDs are commonly animorphically formatted in a 4:3 image, meaning that they're squished and intended to be stretched to fill a widescreen display).

Some people are extremely bothered by the gray pillar-box, though it's never troubled me.I've made this same comment and was told to check them out on a 100" projector in a darkened HT. I can now see where they would be annoying if trying to recreate the theater environment. :)

And I'll bet your image is cropped top and bottom.

Yep, a little bit of the top and bottom are cropped, but only when I zoom in on a 16:9 broadcast that is being transimitted in SD (i.e. black border on all sides before the zoom.) It's a bummer, but I have yet to discover a better way. I do hate the grey bars.

I've made this same comment and was told to check them out on a 100" projector in a darkened HT. I can now see where they would be annoying if trying to recreate the theater environment. :)Yeah, I can see where that would be a problem, but I've heard this complaint from people who hate it because their RPTVs have a black bezel and it's esthetically unpleasing. Or they just can't ignore the bars--they find them to be distracting. Everybody's different.

Well, if networks would watch this stuff on their own HDTVs in a darkened room, they'd see just how obnoxious (bright) the grey bars are vs black, but it's a tradeoff due to "burn-in" issues with CRT and plasma HDTVs.

Mike, most of my "watching" is done in a dark room, so light gray is hugely distracting (plus I have a LCD). What really surprises me is that you set your STB to output only 1080i... I would have thought you'd prefer the STB to not mess and let the display convert to native...

Mike, most of my "watching" is done in a dark room, so light gray is hugely distracting (plus I have a LCD). What really surprises me is that you set your STB to output only 1080i... I would have thought you'd prefer the STB to not mess and let the display convert to native...I watch in the dark in the evenings, though I don't have a special room with no windows (other than the garage, there is no room without windows in my condo--this is sunny Southern California :)). The bars still don't bother me in the dark, compared to SD programs on HD channels, which have black bars added at the station. As I said, different people feel differently about this. Also, CRT RPTVs aren't as bright as DLP/LCD/LCoS RPTVs which aren't as bright as LCD or Plasma flat-panels, so it's possible that I might feel differently if I had a different set. If the gray bars were universally annoying, television and STB manufacturers wouldn't use them. (I tried adding 480p to my output format list, setting the STB's AR control to 4:3/widescreen letterboxed and adjusted the AR control on my television to display it with sidebars and discovered that my televisions native sidebars are also gray).

As for my having the STB set to convert everything to 1080i, it's because my television is a CRT RPTV; when it receives 480p, it does 480p, changing the scanning of the guns. What happens when it switches formats is ugly, so I have the the STB process it. If I had a fixed-pixel discrete element display, I'd check out whether it does better than the STB and choose. The STB uses an ATi chip, so it should do a decent job.

I've been meaning to upgrade my television for years, but while I mull over what to buy, something new and better comes along. I'm currently holding out for a 50" 1080p flat-panel with HDMI 1.3 :D.

I watch in the dark in the evenings, though I don't have a special room with no windows (other than the garage, there is no room without windows in my condo--this is sunny Southern California :)). The bars still don't bother me in the dark, compared to SD programs on HD channels, which have black bars added at the station. As I said, different people feel differently about this. Also, CRT RPTVs aren't as bright as DLP/LCD/LCoS RPTVs which aren't as bright as LCD or Plasma flat-panels, so it's possible that I might feel differently if I had a different set. If the gray bars were universally annoying, television and STB manufacturers wouldn't use them. (I tried adding 480p to my output format list, setting the STB's AR control to 4:3/widescreen letterboxed and adjusted the AR control on my television to display it with sidebars and discovered that my televisions native sidebars are also gray).
Getting political would be OT, but quoting the G-Man seems relevant to me: While at a cocktail party Liddy held his hand in a candle flame until the flesh on his hand was burned. Afterwards somebody asked "What's the trick?" and he replied, "The trick is not minding."

Certainly, grey bars are no where near burning flesh, but yet a lot of people crank about them. Not me, because I don't mind them. The alternative to bars when displaying a non-native aspect ratio is a distorted picture.

Oh I very much believe in choice... but I am a tad frustrated that I have to use a "trick" of stretching and shrinking to get the black pillars that I want.

Then again, I'll never understand why folks WANT to stretch 4:3 to fill a 16:9... but I'd never say users should NOT have a bad choice like that <g>!

Then again, I'll never understand why folks WANT to stretch 4:3 to fill a 16:9... but I'd never say users should NOT have a bad choice like that <g>!

I don't stretch 4:3 but I do zoom it. I have a plazma screen TV and I do it to fill the screen and to prevent burn-in. Actually, mine looks pretty good zoomed and what I lose at the top and bottom usually isn't important anyway.

I don't stretch 4:3 but I do zoom it. I have a plazma screen TV and I do it to fill the screen and to prevent burn-in. Actually, mine looks pretty good zoomed and what I lose at the top and bottom usually isn't important anyway.
Preventing burn-in a an excellent reason to monkey with the original artist's vision. IMO, zooming is better than stretching. I can tolerate a bit of the picture cropped a whole lot better than a distorted picture. YMMV.

Sorry if this has been answered but I cannot find what I want to hear anywhere so far. Is there *any* way I can change the grey bars to black bars for 4:3 content? I have a DLP set and do not need the grey bars. They are driving me crazy!

-jrdnyquist

I hated the gray side bars for a couple days until I found out how to get rid of them. The box will always make gray bars, but there is a work-around, depending on your TV. I have a Sony SXRD RPTV and the side-bars it applys are black. Since your TV is DLP, most likey it's sidebars are black as well. Here's my set-up: In the cable box, all resolutions are turned on (so the TV de-interlaces and scales), aspect ratio is set to 16:9, and 4:3 mode to 'stretch'. In my TV have a 4:3 auto mode to pillar box 4:3 contect (i.e. 480i channels from the box); Sony calls the Normal mode. Voila! Black side bars automatically with 4:3 content with no distortion or loss of image area in either aspect ratio. :D

P.S. The only disadvantage is the cable box OSD gets squeezed when watching in 4:3, but with a 60" screen, it's no biggie.

I hated the gray side bars for a couple days until I found out how to get rid of them. The box will always make gray bars, but there is a work-around, depending on your TV. I have a Sony SXRD RPTV and the side-bars it applys are black. Since your TV is DLP, most likey it's sidebars are black as well. Here's my set-up: In the cable box, all resolutions are turned on (so the TV de-interlaces and scales), aspect ratio is set to 16:9, and 4:3 mode to 'stretch'. In my TV have a 4:3 auto mode to pillar box 4:3 contect (i.e. 480i channels from the box); Sony calls the Normal mode. Voila! Black side bars automatically with 4:3 content with no distortion or loss of image area in either aspect ratio. :D

P.S. The only disadvantage is the cable box OSD gets squeezed when watching in 4:3, but with a 60" screen, it's no biggie.

One minor addition - you can set the aspect ratio settings on the 8300 for each channel resolution separately. In other words you should tune to a 480i/p channel and set it to 4:3 Stretch but make sure you go to a 720p channel and a 1080i channel and set it to 4:3 Sidebar (or else the already widescreen picture may be cut off on the sides). If your TV doesn't auto-detect 4:3 and insert the sidebars there should definitely be a picture mode that does this manually. So all you need to do is make sure the TV is in 4:3 mode for 4:3 channels and Wide mode for 16:9 channels.

But this is definitely the way to go.

Getting rid of the gray was the very first hint I garnered after joining up here! And I DO use zoom mode... several "shows" on SD channels are in what I call faux widescreen, i.e. they appear with pillars on 4:3 displays. On a 16:9, that means black bars all 4 sides. Examples are Rescue Me on FX, the Stargates on SciFi. What makes me smile is that while one could find numerous slams on "SD quality," this mode just isn't the spawn of Satan... I find it quite acceptable.

One minor addition - you can set the aspect ratio settings on the 8300 for each channel resolution separately. In other words you should tune to a 480i/p channel and set it to 4:3 Stretch but make sure you go to a 720p channel and a 1080i channel and set it to 4:3 Sidebar (or else the already widescreen picture may be cut off on the sides). If your TV doesn't auto-detect 4:3 and insert the sidebars there should definitely be a picture mode that does this manually. So all you need to do is make sure the TV is in 4:3 mode for 4:3 channels and Wide mode for 16:9 channels.

But this is definitely the way to go.


Could you please tell me what software version you are using? I tried this a while back and my 4:3 programs came out stretched. Perhaps I needed to reboot after making this change? I have the JVC-LT40FH97. It does a great job switching between SD and HD. I don't think the problem lies there. I hate the grey bars, but I also don't want stretched programing. Yuck.

Thanks
A

I hated the gray side bars for a couple days until I found out how to get rid of them. The box will always make gray bars, but there is a work-around, depending on your TV. I have a Sony SXRD RPTV and the side-bars it applys are black. Since your TV is DLP, most likey it's sidebars are black as well. Here's my set-up: In the cable box, all resolutions are turned on (so the TV de-interlaces and scales), aspect ratio is set to 16:9, and 4:3 mode to 'stretch'. In my TV have a 4:3 auto mode to pillar box 4:3 contect (i.e. 480i channels from the box); Sony calls the Normal mode. Voila! Black side bars automatically with 4:3 content with no distortion or loss of image area in either aspect ratio. :D

P.S. The only disadvantage is the cable box OSD gets squeezed when watching in 4:3, but with a 60" screen, it's no biggie.

That might work but when both my 8300HD boxes switch from 480-720-1080 modes there is some sort of on screen distortion as it switches resolutions. It takes about 2-3 secs and throws a bunch of ugly noise to the screens until it finally gets the signal playing correctly. I'm not sure I'm willing to trade grey bars for black bars at the cost of the TV freaking out every time I change channels. The only solution so far has been leaving the 8300HD in one mode, 1080i in my case.

My 8300HD has recently been upgraded to the 2.5.051 Passport Echo firmware. Since then I have an issue where each time the box is powered up I get sound but no picture ( just snow ). The only way to get the picture is to switch to a channel that has a different resolution than the current channel.


Has there been any solution to this HDMI handshake problem yet? Switching to a channel with a different resolution will work, but sometimes that's not an option because two shows are in the process of being recorded.

Just curious, does any one know for sure what the colorspace that is output via the HDMI connection?..e.g RGB or YCrCb 4:4:4 ?

Getting rid of the gray was the very first hint I garnered after joining up here! And I DO use zoom mode... several "shows" on SD channels are in what I call faux widescreen, i.e. they appear with pillars on 4:3 displays. On a 16:9, that means black bars all 4 sides...
My Toshiba RP set has a great zoom function that lets these types of programs show full-screen. While clearly not HD the images are not bad.

For 4:3 programs, the Picture Size menu has four choices; the Theater Wide 1 choice weights the center of the picture to give a fairly decent simulation of a 16:9 image while the Theater Wide 2 and 3 are more direct zoom options affording views of "widescreen" non-HD shows. I find that this set does a more acceptable job than the SA boxes. I don't know what other HDTV's do...

I am a TiVo user who recently got an HDTV and since the Series3 has not been released I went to my local TWC office and picked up a SA 8300(Passport).

TiVo gives the user an option between 2 styles of program guides. The "grid" style guide is very similar to the guide that the SA 8300 uses, but the "TiVo Live" style guide puts the channels on the left and the programs on the right. The beauty of the "TiVo Live" style guide is that I can sit down when I get home from work and quickly scan what is on all of the channels for the entire evening. The SA 8300 only permits me to see 2 hours of programming at a time which means I have to scan all the channels from 7-9 and then do the same thing from 9-11. I find this to be extremely inefficient.

Is there any way to see more than 2 hours at a time using the SA 8300 guide? Does the SA 8300 offer something similar to a "TiVo Live" style guide?

I am a TiVo user who recently got an HDTV and since the Series3 has not been released I went to my local TWC office and picked up a SA 8300(Passport).

TiVo gives the user an option between 2 styles of program guides. The "grid" style guide is very similar to the guide that the SA 8300 uses, but the "TiVo Live" style guide puts the channels on the left and the programs on the right. The beauty of the "TiVo Live" style guide is that I can sit down when I get home from work and quickly scan what is on all of the channels for the entire evening. The SA 8300 only permits me to see 2 hours of programming at a time which means I have to scan all the channels from 7-9 and then do the same thing from 9-11. I find this to be extremely inefficient.

Is there any way to see more than 2 hours at a time using the SA 8300 guide? Does the SA 8300 offer something similar to a "TiVo Live" style guide?

Nope.... Bring on Series 3....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so I succumbed to the lure of the 8300HD DVR.

I went to Queens Mall early yesterday with an older HD box I had to trade.

The 1st 8300HD box I received was manufactured in Jan 2005 and had no firewire 1394 plugs, so I waited for one with them. The one I finally got was made in June 2006 and seemed never used.

I have one of those Gefen $350 HDMI switches so I did A/B tests with a 3250HD and the 8300HD on my Westinghouse 37" LVM-37W3 1080p LCD panel.

Findings.

8300HD
1. Running PASSPORT ECHO 2.5.066
2. THe channel numbers and info text are so much BETTER than the 3250HD's
3. The live recording worked flawlessly
4. HDMI looked brighter (not washed out..almost..) and perhaps a little less resolved than the 3250HD
5. I can't find a mode to "deactivate" the internal Hard Drive in order to see how the 8300HD tuner work and compare the "LIVE" digital stream with the 3250HD's tuner output.
6. Western Digital hard drive inside was very quiet


ISSUES.
1. Both firewire 1394 jacks does not allow for recording onto my JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS VCR. BIG PROBLEM for me!
2. Because of the above, I tried connecting said connection with Windows XP SP2 computer and that got nothing.

Based on 1 and 2, I don't think I can archive anything out of the internal hard drive into something like a dual layer DVD.

While the HDMI connection seemed brighter than the 3250HD's DVI connect. The 8300HD's component outputs seemed more color neutral versus the 3250HD's YPbPr connection.

Any of you with both boxes and had similar findings?

Any ways to work around the firewire issues?

Paul


Finally, can the 8300HD with the external eSATA connections work to archive an unlimited amount of HD programming? I know you can only plug in one external at a time, but can you buy say 1 eSATA for sports, 1 eSATA for films, and 1 eSATA for kid shows?

If possible, I can go without D-VHS for archiving since the cost of D-VHS tapes may be about the same as getting some Seagate 500GB eSATA drive for say 30 hours of 1080i HD recordings.

If this is possible, can the programs on the eSATA be accessed easily like a computer hard drive; namely the ability to quickly go to the final inning of a ball game, for example?

THANKS!

5. I can't find a mode to "deactivate" the internal Hard Drive in order to see how the 8300HD tuner work and compare the "LIVE" digital stream with the 3250HD's tuner output.Man, that's a lot of questions for a single post :)!

As far as I know, there is no such mode. (I think that when you change channels it will display the "live" video stream, until you PAUSE or REW, but it's still buffering. Once you've used the buffer, it will display from the buffer, even if you press the LIVE key). In any case, be assured that playback, whether out of the trick-play buffer or a saved recording, will be identical to the live stream. These things don't have the computing power to do anything with the stream while storing it (like, say, bitrate reduction); they just record it bit-for-bit, verbatim, and play it back the same way.
1. Both firewire 1394 jacks does not allow for recording onto my JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS VCR. BIG PROBLEM for me!
2. Because of the above, I tried connecting said connection with Windows XP SP2 computer and that got nothing.I was going to suggest that you take a look at the How to record via IEEE 1394 (Firewire) to Windows XP (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695) thread, but I see that you found it :). Note that, just because your box has Firewire connections on it doesn't mean that they work or that your service provider has even turned them on (though if they bought it after 1 July last year, they're supposed to be working, by FCC regs--some opinions vary on that subject *cough*davehancock*cough* :D).
Finally, can the 8300HD with the external eSATA connections work to archive an unlimited amount of HD programming? I know you can only plug in one external at a time, but can you buy say 1 eSATA for sports, 1 eSATA for films, and 1 eSATA for kid shows?I can't be sure, but I doubt it. My suspicion is that if you disconnect the attached eSATA drive and connect another, it will insist upon formatting the first one if you attach it again. It probably stores some information about the drive on the internal one which won't match if you reconnect it after connecting another.
If possible, I can go without D-VHS for archiving since the cost of D-VHS tapes may be about the same as getting some Seagate 500GB eSATA drive for say 30 hours of 1080i HD recordings.The amount of recording time you get is dependent upon the bitrate of the transmission, not the format. For instance, in my area, the highest bitrate rebroadcast OTA television is from ABC, a 720p station (it averages just shy of 18Mpbs).

500GB marked on the box of the drive is expressed in 10-to-the-9th (billion) bytes; in computing, we use powers of 2 for "giga", "mega" and "kilo", being respectively, 2-to-the-30th, 2-to-the-20th and 2-to-the-10th bytes. That 500 billion byte drive is actually 465.66GB; the internal drive's 160 billion bytes is 150.2GB, totalling 615.8GB. 18 Mbps content consumes 7.54GB/hour; the aggregate 615.8GB will hold about 81.5 hours of content at that high rate (19.39 Mbps is the maximum bitrate of broadcast DTV; note that Mbps is 10-to-the-6th bits per second, not 2-to-the-20th). If the content being stored averages less than 18 Mbps, the total recording time will be greater.
If this is possible, can the programs on the eSATA be accessed easily like a computer hard drive; namely the ability to quickly go to the final inning of a ball game, for example?While FF'ing, each successive press of the right-arrow button will advance to the next fifteen minute mark (from 22 minutes to 30, then to 45, etc). The same is true in REW, using the left-arrow. Using this, I can skip from the beginning to the end of a 2 hour program in 9 seconds.

Some caveats about the external HDD: You cannot control where recordings get stored; it will record on the drive with the greater amount of free space.
With all current versions of Passport Echo up to 2.5.066 (external drives started working with 2.5.048), while the external drive has the greater amount of free space, you will lose trick-play functions (PAUSE, FF, REW, etc) for live television only; the functions will work when playing back recordings. When the internal drive again has the greater amount of free space, live trick-play comes back. It's a big bug, but some people can live with it for greatly increased storage.Enjoy your DVR. You won't be able to return to watching TV without one :).

Thanks Mike, VERY HELPFUL info.

One point you did not address was the video quality of the DVR compared with the regular HD boxes. What's your findings?

Thanks


Paul





Man, that's a lot of questions for a single post :)!

........

I can't be sure, but I doubt it. My suspicion is that if you disconnect the attached eSATA drive and connect another, it will insist upon formatting the first one if you attach it again. It probably stores some information about the drive on the internal one which won't match if you reconnect it after connecting another.I'm sorry that I don't remember who posted it, what thread I saw it in (I'd bet it's the External SATA thread), or whether they were using SARA or Passport, but within the last three weeks or so, I remember someone said that they have an archive of 1.5TB doing exactly that--swapping out multiple SATA drives on their 8300HD.

Paul, I suggest you search the various 8300HD threads for that post. Or perhaps someone else who remembers it (or the original poster) can point you directly to it.

The 1st 8300HD box I received was manufactured in Jan 2005 and had no firewire 1394 plugs, so I waited for one with them. The one I finally got was made in June 2006 and seemed never used.

8300HD
5. I can't find a mode to "deactivate" the internal Hard Drive in order to see how the 8300HD tuner work and compare the "LIVE" digital stream with the 3250HD's tuner output.

A5: When you view a program, it ALWAYS goes into the one-hour trick play buffer. For digital programs, it makes no difference, since it's just a storage buffer, however, for analog programs, an extra A/D Encoder process must be used. No, you can't bypass this extra conversion.

ISSUES.
1. Both firewire 1394 jacks does not allow for recording onto my JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS VCR. BIG PROBLEM for me!

A1: Michael Scott and I are both on TWC-SD using PASSPORT ECHO v.2.5.051. I recently picked up a second SA8300HD, v.2.2, mfr date 8/1/2006 (as new as they get). I tried the Firewire port with JVC "40K" D-VHS with very poor results. Although it took quite a few tries to get it to sync up, I could eventuallly watch and record SD programs, but it would hiccup every minute or so. HD programs took forever to sync up--the best I ever got was a frozen screen. So back to the SA3250HD for the Firewire source.

Based on 1 and 2, I don't think I can archive anything out of the internal hard drive into something like a dual layer DVD.

A: Currently, the only way to archive what is on the hard drive is to play back the recorded program and connect a recording device to the L/R/Video (or S-Video) output. Unfortunately, this is low-rez 480i. There is no way to archive in HD from the SA8300HD to a D-VHS (or PC for local HD only) until they fix the Firewire interface.

If this is possible, can the programs on the eSATA be accessed easily like a computer hard drive; namely the ability to quickly go to the final inning of a ball game, for example?

A: As I recall, the FF, RW and 15-min skip functions don't work for recordings on the eSATA drive.....sorry....

Maybe TWC will these bugs out of their system by the time D*, E*, AT&T, FiOS, et.al. have stolen all of their high end customers....

I'm sorry that I don't remember who posted it, what thread I saw it in (I'd bet it's the External SATA thread), or whether they were using SARA or Passport, but within the last three weeks or so, I remember someone said that they have an archive of 1.5TB doing exactly that--swapping out multiple SATA drives on their 8300HD.

Paul, I suggest you search the various 8300HD threads for that post. Or perhaps someone else who remembers it (or the original poster) can point you directly to it.

I'm sure it was on the External thread. For SARA you can correct different drives, but you need to do a hard reboot (hold power button in) to force rebuilding of the List (Directory) from the alternate drive. The video data stream on the external drives is encoded to the exact DVR, so you can have several formatted and encoded to THAT drive. Reformatting only takes place (and then only when you tell it to) the first time a drive is connected to THAT DVR

One point you did not address was the video quality of the DVR compared with the regular HD boxes. What's your findings?I have only used an 8000HD and an 8300HD, so my experience is limited.

Many folks have lamented the relatively poor picture quality of the 8000HD and 8300HD on SD analog channels. The A->D conversion and/or MPEG encoding by these boxes leaves much to be desired, especially in shadowy, low-contrast scenes where you often see a lot of visible noise (pixel flickering) and false contouring. Digital SD PQ is good (unless the program content was poorly encoded to begin with, prior to broadcast). HD PQ is very good (again, unless the original signal had problems to begin with).

Since both SD and HD dgital content is recorded on the DVR in a lossless way, the only variable in play is how the STB processes that digital signal to create the output signal. If you're using HDMI, then the digital stream is preserved all the way to the TV, and the STB doesn't affect the signal at all. If you're using component video, then the STB is doing a D->A conversion on the signal, and it does a good job of that. (At least, I've never had a complaint, nor have I heard a chorus of other users complaining that the HD PQ was deficient compared to some other box.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...ISSUES.
1. Both firewire 1394 jacks does not allow for recording onto my JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS VCR. BIG PROBLEM for me!...

I'm in Manhattan with 2 8300HD boxes on biblical 1.8.112 software and a JVC 30k D-DVHS and a Mits D-VHS.

I can record all HD channels directly from the 8300HD onto both D-VHS machines without any glitches. I get some (not a lot) momentary breakups and sound dropouts when I archive programs to the JVC that were recorded by the 8300HD where the source is known-clean.

Archiving to the Mits from any recorded program on the 8300HD is just too broken.

If you get nothing at all on direct recording, see if your Firewire stuff is all listed on the diagnostic screen. There is an IEEE1394 status page there. You should see at least the box and the JVC listed there, when hitting "SELECT" on the remote. I assume you know the drill for recording and playing back HD.

It would be not good at all if they broke Firewire completely with 2.5.066 :(

Let us know how you make out.

-Mike

Mike,

Where is the status page? On the 8300HD box settings?

I am thinking of going back and picking up another 8300HD box, maybe even asking for one with your software, version 1.8.112. The one I had yesterday had 2.5.066 and it did not work.

That was the reason I returned it.

Now, after I hear from Mike, Dave, John and others on the forum, I am leaning back on the 8300HD DVR idea as it seems to allow for unlimited hard drives. In this instance, my D-VHS will be un-necessary. 500GB eSATA Seagate drives are $250 now and that should be good enough for 25 HD movies. That is about the same cost of 25 D-VHS tapes.

The only remaining concern is finding the movie on the 500GB drive afterwards.

Thanks, Mike in Manhattan.

BTW, how is the picture quality of the 8300HD with your non-DVR HD boxes you have? SA 3250HD and Pioneer 3510HD?

I watched the 8300HD all afternoon yesterday and was not sure the HDMI videos from 701, 703, and especially 724 was better than the 3250HD's.

Thanks again..


Paul
Forest Hills, TWC-Queens user





I'm in Manhattan with 2 8300HD boxes on biblical 1.8.112 software and a JVC 30k D-DVHS and a Mits D-VHS.

I can record all HD channels directly from the 8300HD onto both D-VHS machines without any glitches. I get some (not a lot) momentary breakups and sound dropouts when I archive programs to the JVC that were recorded by the 8300HD where the source is known-clean.

Archiving to the Mits from any recorded program on the 8300HD is just too broken.

If you get nothing at all on direct recording, see if your Firewire stuff is all listed on the diagnostic screen. There is an IEEE1394 status page there. You should see at least the box and the JVC listed there, when hitting "SELECT" on the remote. I assume you know the drill for recording and playing back HD.

It would be not good at all if they broke Firewire completely with 2.5.066 :(

Let us know how you make out.

-Mike

I watched the 8300HD all afternoon yesterday and was not sure the HDMI videos from 701, 703, and especially 724 was better than the 3250HD's.Why would HDMI performance differ between STBs? The bitstream reaching the TV should be identical. (HDMI gurus: Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how HDMI works?)

Theoretically, they should not be, but you know how some CDs sound different between CD players...

Paul



Why would HDMI performance differ between STBs? The bitstream reaching the TV should be identical. (HDMI gurus: Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how HDMI works?)

Mike,

Where is the status page? On the 8300HD box settings?

I am thinking of going back and picking up another 8300HD box, maybe even asking for one with your software, version 1.8.112. The one I had yesterday had 2.5.066 and it did not work.

That was the reason I returned it.

Now, after I hear from Mike, Dave, John and others on the forum, I am leaning back on the 8300HD DVR idea as it seems to allow for unlimited hard drives. In this instance, my D-VHS will be un-necessary. 500GB eSATA Seagate drives are $250 now and that should be good enough for 25 HD movies. That is about the same cost of 25 D-VHS tapes.

The only remaining concern is finding the movie on the 500GB drive afterwards.

Thanks, Mike in Manhattan.

BTW, how is the picture quality of the 8300HD with your non-DVR HD boxes you have? SA 3250HD and Pioneer 3510HD?

I watched the 8300HD all afternoon yesterday and was not sure the HDMI videos from 701, 703, and especially 724 was better than the 3250HD's.

Thanks again..


Paul
Forest Hills, TWC-Queens user

DIAG screen--With the TV on press and hold down the EXIT and SELECT buttons together on the box until you see "diag" on the led. Release the buttons and then push both in again together momentarily.

You can't get 1.8.112 software if your area is on 2.5.066. The box will load whatever is current from your headend when you first plug it in.

The SA8300HD is the only box that I have used in NYC.

Archiving to an external drive would seem to make sense but everything I've seen about it, including the posts here today, would suggest that there are lots of hoops to jump through to get there.

-Mike

Life can be simpler when you don't have too many choices....


......

The SA8300HD is the only box that I have used in NYC.
........-Mike

One point you did not address was the video quality of the DVR compared with the regular HD boxes. What's your findings?I've been using a DVR for the past 2 years, but if I remember correctly, the video output was noticeably superior to the 3100HD that I switched from and the menus were much faster. I still have my original SA8000HD (I'm not bothering to switch until they get the external HDD support working perfectly); reports are that the 8300HD produces even higher PQ and faster menus. Its processors are twice as fast. Someone tested it using HDNet's test pattern to judge visible resolution.
I'm sure it was on the External thread. For SARA you can correct different drives, but you need to do a hard reboot (hold power button in) to force rebuilding of the List (Directory) from the alternate drive. The video data stream on the external drives is encoded to the exact DVR, so you can have several formatted and encoded to THAT drive. Reformatting only takes place (and then only when you tell it to) the first time a drive is connected to THAT DVRHuh. It was just a suspicion :). They're not being nearly as draconian with security as I'd have been. They must be using the same encryption key for writing the external drive as for the internal.
Maybe TWC will these bugs out of their system by the time D*, E*, AT&T, FiOS, et.al. have stolen all of their high end customers....No--they're switching to their own, brand-new OCAP-based IPG next year with a whole new and exciting set of bugs :D. Some of these bugs have to be in the underlying OS, PowerTV--they may all have been fixed and those fixes would be incorporated in the release with OCAP.

Many people living in condo complexes and apartment houses w/o line-of-sight from a private-use patio, balcony or windowsill cannot use satellite--the real threat is Fiber-To-The-Home systems from the telcos, like Verizon's FiOS. That could go pretty much anywhere

Why would HDMI performance differ between STBs? The bitstream reaching the TV should be identical. (HDMI gurus: Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how HDMI works?)

The difference is likely in the MPEG decoder and component to RGB transcoder. The cableco is sending MPEG which gets recorded on the harddrive. Each STB then must decode that MPEG into component (YCC) and then convert it to RGB to send to the TV. It could output YCC over HDMI (but not DVI) if the set indicates that it supports it but I dont know whether it actually supports that or not.

Same basic reason that DVD players look different... Different MPEG decoders.

I had the Gefen 4x1 and 2x2 and I did visual tests between the 8300HD running 2.5.066 and 3250HD running 4.2 build 068 in NYC and 3250HD with DVI did look less grainy and artificially sharpened than the 8300HD. The 8300HD also seemed more washed out.

Maybe I needed to run the 8300HD for a few days in order to "burn it in"....

Paul



The difference is likely in the MPEG decoder and component to RGB transcoder. The cableco is sending MPEG which gets recorded on the harddrive. Each STB then must decode that MPEG into component (YCC) and then convert it to RGB to send to the TV. It could output YCC over HDMI (but not DVI) if the set indicates that it supports it but I dont know whether it actually supports that or not.

The difference is likely in the MPEG decoder and component to RGB transcoder. The cableco is sending MPEG which gets recorded on the harddrive. Each STB then must decode that MPEG into component (YCC) and then convert it to RGB to send to the TV.If this were true, I'd agree that you could expect significantly different results. However, unless I'm missing something, that's not true. From www.hdmi.org (http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp):Q: What is HDMI?
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the first and only industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface. By delivering crystal-clear, all-digital audio and video via a single cable...The STB is just passing the MPEG signal straight on to the TV--there's no decoding/transcoding taking place at the STB.

Could you please tell me what software version you are using? I tried this a while back and my 4:3 programs came out stretched. Perhaps I needed to reboot after making this change? I have the JVC-LT40FH97. It does a great job switching between SD and HD. I don't think the problem lies there. I hate the grey bars, but I also don't want stretched programing. Yuck.

Thanks
A

Passport v. 112 I believe.

If this were true, I'd agree that you could expect significantly different results. However, unless I'm missing something, that's not true. From www.hdmi.org (http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp):The STB is just passing the MPEG signal straight on to the TV--there's no decoding/transcoding taking place at the STB.

Notice that the quote said 'UNCOMPRESSED'... MPEG by definition IS compressed. RGB and YCC arent. HDMI sends three video bitstreams to the TV... either Y C C or R G B. There are three video wires (pairs) in the HDMI cable. The STB decodes the MPEG (just like a DVD player does) and outputs RGB or YCC. Note that you can select video output formats in the STB... 720p/1080i.. if the STB wasnt decoding the MPEG then how could that be done? You arent gonna tear down the mpeg and deinterlace and scale it and reincode it on the fly..

If this were true, I'd agree that you could expect significantly different results. However, unless I'm missing something, that's not true. From www.hdmi.org (http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp):The STB is just passing the MPEG signal straight on to the TV--there's no decoding/transcoding taking place at the STB.

Here is a quick link showing the data formats supported by HDMI...

http://www.lashen.com/vendors/calrad/hdmi_dvi.asp

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-dvi-hdmi-hdcp-connections-11-2004.html

Notice that the quote said 'UNCOMPRESSED'... MPEG by definition IS compressed. RGB and YCC arent.Many thanks for the education, and the pointers to more info. I'm a little less ignorant, now!

I have just entered the diag. screen of the 8300 stb and found an entry for Multi Room Dvr.
Exactly how does this work.

And you're a rocket scientist to boot....

;)

Many thanks for the education, and the pointers to more info. I'm a little less ignorant, now!

I have just entered the diag. screen of the 8300 stb and found an entry for Multi Room Dvr.
Exactly how does this work.
I don't think it does. Yet.

No--they're switching to their own, brand-new OCAP-based IPG next year with a whole new and exciting set of bugs :D. Some of these bugs have to be in the underlying OS, PowerTV--they may all have been fixed and those fixes would be incorporated in the release with OCAP.

Many people living in condo complexes and apartment houses w/o line-of-sight from a private-use patio, balcony or windowsill cannot use satellite--the real threat is Fiber-To-The-Home systems from the telcos, like Verizon's FiOS. That could go pretty much anywhere

Mike, is this "for sure?" I've read about the intention... but intention and delivery are way different! Will it actually happen that fast... and will it roll out in drips & drabs (i.e. on this head end today, that head end next week)? I'm still sitting here crossing my fingers that a post 068 release will fix the trick play bug and they roll it out in Manhattan!

I got some info from a post that the DirectTV satellite was 231 degrees, 31 degrees elevation (in NYC). It looks like I have a decent line of site from my terrace, but the issue (I think) is that one has to run OTA for all the local HD channels; while I haven't bought an antenna and tried it, antenna are ay problematic in the city (probably worse so since 911 as being near the Hudson River I've got more buildings to deal wit to the Empire State bldg.).

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.

Roy

Passport v. 112 I believe.

I have the same software version. I've tried the following solutions and the results leave me confused.

First, I set the TV type as Standard (4:3) and Picture setting as letter box 16:9. I had no grey bars and I liked this setting except when I needed to zoom on a 16:9 picture broadcast in SD, some of the picture was cropped or zoomed too much.

It was suggested to me in this forum that the following solution addressed the zoom issue, so...

Second, I set the TV type as Widescreen (16:9) and Pictures Setting as Stretch 4:3.
This also worked with no grey bars, but I had the exact same zoom issues. Perhaps slightly less zoom, but not a significant difference. Also, under these settings the guide displays inconsistantly (i.e. it stretches or zooms depending on type of programing I'm watching. Finaly, and I'm still checking this out, but I think SD looked a bit worse under these settings. I little more picture noise etc.

I do not believe the issue lies with my JVC-LT40fh97. This is a smart TV and it is simple to adjust aspect ratios and get it to remember them for SD vs HD and change them later too.

Am I missing something here? Is there another step or setting I should be trying. The zoom issue doesn't bother me a lot. I'm not watching that much letterbox in SD.
But, if there's a fix, I'm all ears.

My goal is to feed my new JVC HD a pure, unmolested signal, because I chose this HDTV in part due to the excellent way it handles SD. It's got great noise filters and I want it to do the heavy lifting, not my cable box. The TW rep who installed it, and who I one over when I offered him a beer at the end of the day, told me that the way to get a pure signal is the first setting I listed here. I know TW reps often don't know much, but he seemed to understand what I was trying to do.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanx,
A

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.

Roy

Hi Roy - Me too - same problems here in San Fernando Valley - also on 2 different boxes. I got rid of the problems by connecting component cables.

TW refused to talk to me about HDMI problems saying they don't support it.

If you find a fix, please post it.

Thanks, Carol

Hi Roy - Me too - same problems here in San Fernando Valley - also on 2 different boxes. I got rid of the problems by connecting component cables.

TW refused to talk to me about HDMI problems saying they don't support it.

If you find a fix, please post it.

Thanks, Carol

Carol
Do you have the passport software and do you know the version on your boxes? Mine is 2.5.051. On our system you can check on ch 888.
What reciever do you have and were you using it to switch? Have you tried to run hdmi to tv direct and use reciever only for audio?
thanks Roy

......First, I set the TV type as Standard (4:3) and Picture setting as letter box 16:9. I had no grey bars and I liked this setting except when I needed to zoom on a 16:9 picture broadcast in SD, some of the picture was cropped or zoomed too much......

..... Is there another step or setting I should be trying. ......Anyone have any thoughts?

I use the same setup. None are perfect. The final tweaks I used were adjusting for overscan and horizontal/vertical position. My Sony has functions for both.

Even after those changes there are 1 or 2 renegade channels where the "bug" scrolling across the screen bottom is off. I have the 2 settings so that almost all other channels are positioned correctly.

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.

Roy

I have a similar issue and would love to know if you find a solution. I have TWC in NYC with a SA8300. I just bought a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi receiver and a Sony KDS-60A2000 TV. If I hook up the SA8300 directly to the TV using HDMI and use the digital coax to the receiver for audio and set Audio output to Dolby, then everything is fine. The problem is I paid lot of $$$ for this new high tech system and wish to use HDMI so I can have fewer cables and use my new receiver as a video switcher. When I run my Oppo 970 DVD through the receiver using HDMI to the TV using HDMI from receiver to TV, no problems. If I use HDMI from the SA8300 to the receiver and HDMI from recever to TV, I get a message saying my HDTV is not HDCP compliant. I have read many posts on this forum and have not found any answer except that it seems the SA8300 from TWC is not the proper version of HDMI. Any solutions appreciated.

Mike, is this "for sure?" I've read about the intention... but intention and delivery are way different! Will it actually happen that fast... and will it roll out in drips & drabs (i.e. on this head end today, that head end next week)? I'm still sitting here crossing my fingers that a post 068 release will fix the trick play bug and they roll it out in Manhattan!Nothing's for sure until they actually do it :). They and the other providers all have to support two-way Plug-and-Play V2 by 1 July 2007--they've already been given one 2 year extension and won't get any further time to comply. The industry doesn't tend to wait until the last moment for things like this; CE products (televisions, etc) with support for Multi-Stream CableCARD and OCAP will be out this Fall. I believe that their new navigator is part of that. As far as I know, they won't have to replace the millions of boxes that they have in the field, but all of their new boxes will have to run it. It's possible that they will continue to support Passport on the old boxes, but I'm doubting it; they almost certainly will offer new products written for OCAP platforms and if they continue to use Passport, they'll have to maintain two versions of the implementations of those, or eschew the possibility of people with the old boxes using them.

They demonstrated their OCAP Digital Navigator (ODN) at CES in January,, downloaded to prototype Samsung televisions (Samsung has been a development partner for this). They've been testing it in the field in some small town in North Carolina on those same Samsung TVs. They expect to have OCAP support in the headends of half their system nationwide by October.

Nothing says that you won't get a Passport update which fixes the issues with external drives before they roll out ODN on current boxes (if they do). However, note that the "no trick-play for live television while external drive has the most free space" bug was never in SARA, so the bug doesn't originate in the underlying PowerTV RTOS support for the feature, so maybe it will never be ODN either. Then again, support for external drives might not be implemented in ODN; it's never been an officially announced feature for Passport Echo, so they have no commitment to it.

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.The last time we discussed this issue in this thread was here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7931005&&#post7931005). It should work--HDMI is designed to be used in precisely that fashion, with one wire running into the receiver from each A/V source and one wire running from the receiver into the television. If it doesn't work it's a bug.

"They and the other providers all have to support two-way Plug-and-Play V2 by 1 July 2007--they've already been given one 2 year extension and won't get any further time to comply."

Is this a government or self-imposed (i.e. industry trade group) mandate?

Assume you meant SARA in your last paragraph (see, I'm learning!).

Too damn many acronyms... so ODN is the "Passport/SARA" replacement, eh.

Boy, supporting 2 software sets based only on some code from the box sure seems like a potential nightmare to me... while nothing would surprise me that much, I would be surprised if they went that way.

I'm not so sure it has ever been firmly established that the 8300 has an EEPROM so something like it to hold it's own firmware. If they CAN deliver a hardware firmware as they do the top level software, it would seem that when they shift, all the boxes would shift. Somehow I still think (at least in my market) it would roll out sequentially, with good old Staten Island being the first guinea pigs!

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to give us all such good info!

The last time we discussed this issue in this thread was here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7931005&&#post7931005). It should work--HDMI is designed to be used in precisely that fashion, one wire running into the receiver from over A/V source into the receiver and one wire running from the receiver the to television. If it doesn't work it's a bug.
Do "we" think that RDO CA's freezing problem is HDMI-related? It sounds, to me, like it might be something else. I'm not an HDMI guru, but I can't see how this is a problem with the interconnect.

The last time we discussed this issue in this thread was here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7931005&&#post7931005). It should work--HDMI is designed to be used in precisely that fashion, one wire running into the receiver from over A/V source into the receiver and one wire running from the receiver the to television. If it doesn't work it's a bug.

The question may be: where is the bug? There are some HDMI switching AV Receivers (Sony) that work and some (Denon) that don't. The problem also exists with both SARA and Passport 8300HDs as well as Motorola 6412 III DVRs.

Lots of questions .......

Sorry for the cross posting in the local NYC TWC thread also but I had originally thought that this was a local issue and now I think that this thread may be more appropriate seeing as PIP archiving has been discussed here before:

I live in tribeca [NYC] and have the SA 8000HD from which I am trying to archive SD shows to either start recording more HD shows (too much Dora, Diego, Miffy etc. on it right now) or to replace with the 8300HD. To archive to DVD I have been using the PIP trick which only outputs in 480i but that's ok seeing as I am primarily archiving to create space to record HD to the HDD rather than archive HD content.

However, after coming back from a few days vacation on 8/16 I noticed that the PIP output no longer displayed anything on the DVD input. Does anyone think or know that this was disabled with the update that they did a couple of weeks ago? I know I can use some button press trick on the front panel to get it into 480i output mode but then I have to watch Dora et al while I record.

Thanks in advace.

Or does anyone have any ideas why this could have stopped working given that all cable connections are ok?

Thanks in advance.

"They and the other providers all have to support two-way Plug-and-Play V2 by 1 July 2007--they've already been given one 2 year extension and won't get any further time to comply."

Is this a government or self-imposed (i.e. industry trade group) mandate?It is an FCC mandate, which was supposed to come into effect on 1 July 2005. The original mandate for providers to stop using proprietary access so that consumer electronics companies could make system-independent equipment capable of tuning scrambled/encrypted subscription and premium content was issued 20 years ago. Since it hadn't been answered by the providers before the question of standardizing the interface to DTV-over-cable arose, they just rolled it all together. (The FCC issued a similar mandate which brought about the creation of the modular phone jack and with it an entire competitive industry of selling wired handsets to consumers, which eventually killed the phone company's handset leasing business).

After 1 July 2007, the cable providers are required to stop distributing STBs with proprietary conditional access built-in; all of the boxes that they distribute must use CableCARDs. They were given an extension on this because they wanted to combine that with the OCAP platform (not ready by the mid-2005 deadline), so that their IPGs and applications (like custom Video On Demand and Impulse Pay-Per-View menus) could be downloaded into third-party consumer purchased devices, The consumer electronics industry sees the biggest problem with achieving CableCARD equipment interoperability as being the fact that, to this point, the cable providers aren't reliant on it working--if it doesn't work, they can just shrug, blame it on the CableCARD implementation in the customer's television and offer to provide him with one of their nice leased STBs. If they have to make CableCARD work on their own leased boxes, it's much more likely that it will work properly with other CableCARD devices. The providers hate Plug-and-Play V1 w/unidirectional CableCARD because customers who choose to use it cannot be tempted into buying VOD or IPPV, so they have a negative incentive to get CableCARD working consistently on their systems. OCAP allows them to load their proprietary software onto standardized customer purchased equipment, so they don't lose potential interactive services sales for all who choose to use CableCARD.
Assume you meant SARA in your last paragraph (see, I'm learning!).Yes--I'll fix it for posterity's sake :).
I'm not so sure it has ever been firmly established that the 8300 has an EEPROM so something like it to hold it's own firmware.Believe me--that is beyond question. There are no truly complex embedded software applications on the market which don't. Developers use downloadability to test new software builds on the target all of the time; even the cheapest little throw-away mobile phones that I've worked on have this ability. When they download a new release of Passport onto your box, they're almost certainly replacing everything, including the operating system that it's running on, even if it didn't change. The only code that won't be changed that way is the small program which allows them to download a new OS and application onto the platform remotely.
If they CAN deliver a hardware firmware as they do the top level software, it would seem that when they shift, all the boxes would shift. Somehow I still think (at least in my market) it would roll out sequentially, with good old Staten Island being the first guinea pigs!They test it initially in small communities--when they think it's ready, they'll go directly to large markets. I'd expect NYC to be one of the first markets to get it :D.

Here's little picture of ODN running on one of Samsungs televisions at CES, from this (http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6303851.html) article:

http://www.cedmagazine.com/contents/images/0206wrapup.jpg

Do "we" think that RDO CA's freezing problem is HDMI-related? It sounds, to me, like it might be something else. I'm not an HDMI guru, but I can't see how this is a problem with the interconnect.Maybe not, since it works for him up until it freezes. I'd like to hear his results of trying a direct HDMI connection to the television.
The question may be: where is the bug? There are some HDMI switching AV Receivers (Sony) that work and some (Denon) that don't. The problem also exists with both SARA and Passport 8300HDs as well as Motorola 6412 III DVRs.

Lots of questions .......As the young people say, "Tru dat." :D

These protected digital connections are horribly much more complicated to implement than good ol' fashioned analog. Switching HDMI receivers, which have only recently become somewhat common, throw a new variable into the problem--people were having enough difficulty getting direct-to-the-television connections working. I blame the receiver OEMs--for over a year, only one very high-end Denon and one $250 Panasonic had one or more HDMI inputs and an HDMI output.

Is there any way to change the layout of the program guide to see more than 1.5 hours at a time? Does the SA 8300 offer something similar to a "TiVo Live" style guide?

Also, is there a way to change the 4:3 letterbox from gray to black? I have an LCD so I am not concerned about burn-in, but I find the gray bars distracting.

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.BTW, Roy, I don't know what part of SoCal you live in, but you might want to bring this up in the Time Warner Cable (http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html?1156813312) forum at hdtv.forsandiego.com. We're all running 2.5.051 as well, and there are many people using HDMI (or trying to :)).

Is there any way to change the layout of the program guide to see more than 1.5 hours at a time? Does the SA 8300 offer something similar to a "TiVo Live" style guide?Same question you asked in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8297502&&#post8297502) post. Same answer: no.

Also, is there a way to change the 4:3 letterbox from gray to black? I have an LCD so I am not concerned about burn-in, but I find the gray bars distracting.This was recently discussed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8275316&&#post8275316). There's no way to do it with the STB, but people have managed to set things up so that they're viewing 4:3 content with their television's pillarboxing.

Same question you asked in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8297502&&#post8297502) post. Same answer: no.

This was recently discussed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8275316&&#post8275316). There's no way to do it with the STB, but people have managed to set things up so that they're viewing 4:3 content with their television's pillarboxing.

Thanks.

I know I asked the first question earlier, but I felt my post got lost in a series of rapid fire posts by other users.

The problem is not only with switching receivers but obviously with any device that switches HDMI. I own a DVDO VP30 and their problem thread is longer than this thread. The major problem has to do with HDMI cabling, audio dropout and related issues.

I have two SA8300HD units hooked up to a VP30, and one going directly to a Pioneer 42" commercial plasma with an Aurora DVI interface card. The one hooked to the plasma never exhibits any problems, e.g. black bars, reboots, loss of audio etc. The two hooked to the VP30 do. Biggest annoyance is the black L shaped bars. Second is audio related issues from momentary dropout to to loss of protocol (DD 5.1 vs stereo pcm). Also up there is the fact that I can induce a reboot of the 8300 by playing around enough with the HDMI connection, switching, configuring on the fly, etc. That should never ever happen and a reboot issue can only be placed at the foot of the unit doing the reboot. No one else for no reason whatsoever. (I am sure I will hear a lot about that last statement)

After 1 July 2007, the cable providers are required to stop distributing STBs with proprietary conditional access built-in; all of the boxes that they distribute must use CableCARDs.

The regulation (Sec. 76.1204 Availability of equipment performing conditional access or security functions) states:
Commencing on July 1, 2007, no multichannel video programming distributor subject to this section shall place in service new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both conditional access and other functions in a single integrated device.
It DOES NOT state: all of the boxes that they distribute must use CableCARDs. That may be a logical conclusion (or the "easy out") but it is not a FCC requirement.

The providers hate Plug-and-Play V1 w/unidirectional CableCARD because customers who choose to use it cannot be tempted into buying VOD or IPPV, so they have a negative incentive to get CableCARD working consistently on their systems. Another reason that the providers don't like CC V1 is that thy can't deploy technology to expand their effective bandwidth with Switched Video technology. TW here in Rochester has started to deploy that technology and the current CableCards don't work with it.

The regulation (Sec. 76.1204 Availability of equipment performing conditional access or security functions) states:

It DOES NOT state: That may be a logical conclusion (or the "easy out") but it is not a FCC requirement.You're right--I didn't even know where that particular regulation was anymore. It would be punitive to force them to discontinue the use of millions of already purchased boxes. The old boxes will get replaced by attrition, and they'll immediately have to support new boxes with CableCARD.

It's similar to the much discussed reg requiring 1394 support (or at least non-functioning 1394 connections :D) on all the boxes that they buy now. The just can't buy any more boxes that don't have them.
Another reason that the providers don't like CC V1 is that thy can't deploy technology to expand their effective bandwidth with Switched Video technology. TW here in Rochester has started to deploy that technology and the current CableCards don't work with it.We've discussed that before in this thread, at least in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8268217&&#post8268217) post (I could swear we've talked more about it but I can't turn anything up with a thread search). Thanks for pointing it out. I still have no idea how they're going to get around that block: millions of Plug-and-Play V1 televisions and STBs have been and continue to be sold and regulations continue to require that they support them. They can't use SDV in any neighborhood where anyone's using one and can't offer services requiring bandwidth that would be liberated by SDV in those neighborhoods.

They can't use SDV in any neighborhood where anyone's using one and can't offer services requiring bandwidth that would be liberated by SDV in those neighborhoods.
Not sure if I understand what you are saying here. TW here moved UniversalHD from open HD tier to their $5/month tier, then moved it to switched service. There sure were folks with V1 cable cards that no longer received (including one person beta testing a TiVo Series 3 with 2 cable cards) it. Further, they made clear that future HD channels would be via switched video. Of course, if they finally settle with Sinclair, the local FOX HD station would not be switched, but most any other HD will likely be (at least according to their management).

I have a SA8300hd w/ passport ver. 2.5.051 with Time Warner in So. Cal. It is run to a new Pioneer Elite 84 Receiver and to the tv. When I am in the guide selecting a channel or tying to play a recording it will freeze up and can't be shut off or anything. 1or 2 min later it will reboot itself and when done it seems to work ok. Usually happens when first used for the day or after off for a while. I swapped out the box and 2nd one does same. Talked to SA tech guys and they have heard of this before but don't yet have a fix. I will try a diff remote and swap out box again and hook direct to tv leaving Receiver out of loop. Anyone seen this and do you have any suggestions. I have also talked to time Warner with the expected results.(none) Hooked up HDMI all the way.

Roy

I am also on Time Warner Desert Çities Roy and have the same device with same version firmware. I am connected to the television using component cables (no HDMI). I get the same system crash you describe about once every couple weeks or so. I figured eventually they would get it sorted out with another firmware update. If you are seeing it as often as described, it does sound like it may be related to HDMI.

Carol
Do you have the passport software and do you know the version on your boxes? Mine is 2.5.051. On our system you can check on ch 888.
What reciever do you have and were you using it to switch? Have you tried to run hdmi to tv direct and use reciever only for audio?
thanks Roy

Hi Roy,

I am running Passport Version 2.5.066. I hooked my 8300 to the HDMI input on my Sony 50 " HDTV - Model KDS-R50XBR1. My audio also goes to the TV.

I have heard rumors that there will be a new box in the future, especially after TiVo releases its TiVo 3 box that handles HDTV.

Carol

I am also on Time Warner Desert Çities Roy and have the same device with same version firmware. I am connected to the television using component cables (no HDMI). I get the same system crash you describe about once every couple weeks or so. I figured eventually they would get it sorted out with another firmware update. If you are seeing it as often as described, it does sound like it may be related to HDMI.
I'm not sure I follow your logic, or maybe just don't accept it, that his greater frequency makes it an HDMI problem. Your system crash every few weeks would not be considered normal, so something is causing it. IMO, it is not difficult to see that your problem and his problem could be the same problem. And you're not using HDMI.

Jst my $.03.

Is it possible that the cause of freezing and re-booting for those with frequent episodes are caused by low/borderline signal strength?

I do not have the freeze/re-boot problem, but did have an exception happen yesterday. I checked all connections and then signal strength, which I found to be abnormally low (diagnostic menu).

When I returned from work the signal strength was back to normal/acceptable levels and of course I've had no problem.

I've heard that HDTVs crave strong signal strength (or maybe the STB does). Could low signal strength, and not the STB, be the root cause?

Is it possible that the cause of freezing and re-booting for those with frequent episodes are caused by low/borderline signal strength?

I do not have the freeze/re-boot problem, but did have an exception happen yesterday. I checked all connections and then signal strength, which I found to be abnormally low (diagnostic menu).

When I returned from work the signal strength was back to normal/acceptable levels and of course I've had no problem.

I've heard that HDTVs crave strong signal strength (or maybe the STB does). Could low signal strength, and not the STB, be the root cause?
A recent firmware upgrade caused all three of our boxes to spontaneously reboot. A call to tech support revealed they were aware of it and would be pushing the fix later in the day. When I returned home from work, all boxes worked perfectly. On another occasion, two of the three boxes would not tune certain channel ranges. The tech who made the service call re-did a LOT of connectors - from the pole to the problem boxes. When he was done, all boxes worked perfectly. All three of our boxes work flawlessly now.

The first instance is of a bug in the firmware, while the second was low signal level/ingress due to 10-year old connections. My first action when there is a problem is to call tech support. Later, I may post here. But it is not my first action. ;)

Not sure if I understand what you are saying here. TW here moved UniversalHD from open HD tier to their $5/month tier, then moved it to switched service. There sure were folks with V1 cable cards that no longer received (including one person beta testing a TiVo Series 3 with 2 cable cards) it. Further, they made clear that future HD channels would be via switched video. Of course, if they finally settle with Sinclair, the local FOX HD station would not be switched, but most any other HD will likely be (at least according to their management).I was thinking that it might violate the intent of FCC 03-225 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf), their "SECOND REPORT AND ORDER AND SECOND FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING" on Plug-and-Play DTV-over-cable which discusses unresolved issues and orders specific immediate changes to the regulations. The clear intent expressed in that document is that unidirectional Digital Cable Ready 1 (DCR1) devices be able to tune all non-interactive services on any system, and the FCC has since guided retailers to sell them as such. I suppose that SDV services could basically qualify as "interactive", since to tune them some "interaction" with the cable system is necessary.

CableCARD users bought their DCR1 televisions and STBs with the understanding, promoted by the FCC, that, with the proper subscriptions, they'd be able to use them to view any digital service on their system with the exception of VOD and IPPV services. Though I doubt that the cable providers will be allowed to move any rebroadcast DTV to SDV, they can and probably will move just about every other digital video service there, rendering CableCARD V1 completely useless. I don't even have a DCR1 device and this makes me angry.

Even though TiVo Series 3 can use Multi-Stream CableCARDs, SDV is going to require OCAP. (They are working on standardizing SDV so that devices with small memory footprints can be made to work with it, so this may save the Series 3).

I realize that the cable industry is going to have to do something to increase the utility of their bandwidth so that they can offer a number of video services competitive with what can be offered by satellite (with their recent increase in bandwidth) and the emerging Fiber-To-The-Home service being rolled out by the telcos, like Verizon's FiOS. But millions of people who bought their equipment with the expectation of being able to watch premium channels without an STB are going to be screwed over by widespread deployment of SDV.

EDIT: Here's an extract from a letter filed with the FCC (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518400258) by what appears to be a law firm representing TiVo, describing concerns voiced by TiVo in one of their meetings:
TiVo then discussed the need to ensure that competitive entrant unidirectional digital cable products (“UDCPs”) – such as TiVo’s S3 device – continue to work with cable systems utilizing switched digital video technology. Specifically, TiVo expressed concern that if a cable operator distributes linear cable channels (apart from PPV and VOD) via switched digital technology, subscribers with a competitive entrant UDCP will not have access to the same channels as those subscribers leasing set-top boxes from the cable operator. Consequently, consumerswill be hesitant to invest in UDCPs. This concern, which TiVo has heard from a number of customers, is captured by the attached e-mail, copies of which were distributed at the meetings. TiVo emphasized that it is not against cable’s use of switched digital technology, but simply wants those cable operators adopting the technology to take whatever actions necessary to ensure that subscribers with competitive entrant UDCPs have equal access to the same digital content offerings available to subscribers with MSO-leased set-top boxes.Note that there a few scanned attachments at the end of that letter, including some e-mail messages or forum postings from concerned prospective TiVo Series 3 customers.

Looking at those documents it also seems that the shipping TiVo Series 3 won't have support for Multi-Stream CableCARDs, which was a feature announced at CES. Maybe they couldn't acheive certification in time for their target first customer ship date. Without that, the small-memory-footprint SDV thing isn't going to help.

. . .I suppose that SDV services could basically qualify as "interactive", since to tune them some "interaction" with the cable system is necessary. . . . Though I doubt that the cable providers will be allowed to move any rebroadcast DTV to SDV, they can and probably will move just about every other digital video service there, rendering CableCARD V1 completely useless. . . .Even though TiVo Series 3 can use Multi-Stream CableCARDs, SDV is going to require OCAP. (They are working on standardizing SDV so that devices with small memory footprints can be made to work with it, so this may save the Series 3). . . . But millions of people who bought their equipment with the expectation of being able to watch premium channels without an STB are going to be screwed over by widespread deployment of SDV.
SDV - Switched Digital Video? Only programming being "requested" is sent?

SDV - Switched Digital Video? Only programming being "requested" is sent?Exactly. The neighborhood junction boxes only put things on the local wire which connected subscribers are actually using. This requires communication by the tuners with the system to inform them what you want to tune. Since no neighborhood's worth of subs can be tuning the hundreds of available channels, this will free up huge quantities of bandwidth on the local wire.

(Note that I've edited my post to add some more info about TiVo S3 since you posted your reply).

Exactly. The neighborhood junction boxes only puts things on the local wire which connected subscribers are actually using. This requires communication by the tuners with the system to inform them what you want to tune. Since no neighborhood's worth of subs can be tuning the hundreds of available channels, this will free up huge quantities of bandwidth on the local wire.
Thanks. How does the programming get to the neighborhood nodes?

Thanks. How does the programming get to the neighborhood nodes?
Fiber

Fiber
Is that switched video as well?

Yes - Switched Video is really similar to VOD, except it isn't spooled from a local drive.

Yes - Switched Video is really similar to VOD, except it isn't spooled from a local drive.It's an extremely rudimentary form of VOD, since it also doesn't offer any kind of trick-play functionality. Additionally, multiple users tuning the same channel can share the bandwidth it's on.

It's an extremely rudimentary form of VOD, since it also doesn't offer any kind of trick-play functionality. Additionally, multiple users tuning the same channel can share the bandwidth it's on.
Assuming the subscriber has a DVR, wouldn't trick-play features be provided in the home?

Assuming the subscriber has a DVR, wouldn't trick-play features be provided in the home?Not for Video On Demand. If you meant all of the SDV channels, then yeah--your DVR would buffer and record it just like non-switched video. After it gets put on the wire, it's indistinguishable from non-switched video. Real VOD can be "trick-played" on non-DVR boxes.

Not for Video On Demand. If you meant all of the SDV channels, then yeah. I was just comparing the two.
Something in the STB/DVR prevents buffering and therefore "pausing" "live" TV in the case of VOD?

I suspect that this topic may have been addressed, but I am not sure what to search for. Any info on this would be much appreciated.

I have a 42" VIZIO 16 X 9 LCD TV but I had the same exact issue on a 42" plasma.

SA 8300 HD DVR TWC in San Diego
Tested with both HDMI and Component outputs

on SA box:
1. TV set to 16 X 9 and Normal mode

LCD TV set to 4:3
picture is squeezed on sides and distorted

When I switch the TV to wide mode there is a thin black bar that cuts into the picture on the left side. If I use the TWC box remote and change it to 16 X 9 "stretch mode" it looks fine for a 4 X 3 program (the black bar disappears and the picture is not distorted). However when I watch an HD program I have to change the cable box to normal mode and then the picture fills the screen on the TV and all is well.

Why doesn't Normal mode work (without an extra black line (only on the left side))? Do other people have this problem?

Something in the STB/DVR prevents buffering and therefore "pausing" "live" TV in the case of VOD?Yes. Have you ever looked at your cableco's VOD offerings? Mine has a number of free programs. If yours does, too, you could pull one up and play with it to see how the playback control interface is different from the normal SARA or Passport controls.

Something in the STB/DVR prevents buffering and therefore "pausing" "live" TV in the case of VOD?Actually, something in the FCC regs :). VOD and IPPV are the only two business models on which the cable companies are allowed to apply "Copy Never" protections. DVRs are allowed to buffer up to 90 minutes of this for trick-play purposes they cannot save "permanent" copies of any portion.

The cable companies don't have to mark VOD and PPV with "Copy Never"; I know that some cable providers allow timeshifting of PPV via DVR. There is no real need to timeshift VOD, since it's available 24/7 for as long as the program is offered, and the box will save your place in multiple unfinished programs. (Of course, you might occasionally first notice a VOD program on the last day that it's available and not be able to watch it before the end of the day, but dem's iz da breaks :D). Every time I've tried pressing REC while viewing VOD it hasn't worked.

Yes. Have you ever looked at your cableco's VOD offerings? Mine has a number of free programs. If yours does, too, you could pull one up and play with it to see how the playback control interface is different from the normal SARA or Passport controls.
No, I've never even peeked at the VOD offerings. I have never been interested in paying even more than the $200/mo I give those bastids already. :)

I have never been interested in paying even more than the $200/mo I give those bastids already. :)I agree. But every once in a while I'll take a look at the free stuff. There have been a couple of comedy clips I've enjoyed, and I've seen a documentary or two that were worth watching.

I agree. But every once in a while I'll take a look at the free stuff. There have been a couple of comedy clips I've enjoyed, and I've seen a documentary or two that were worth watching.pepar isn't on TWC--he may not have the dozen of junk free VOD channels that we do (worth every penny :)).

I admit that every once in a while I find something that I want to watch. I dumped the Variety Pak because I was only watching one channel, so I watch some of the things that they put on G4TV On Demand for old time's sake. The two On Demand music video channels are worth the occasional peek as well.

pepar--if you're paying $200/month don't you have one or more of the premium tiers, like HBO, Showtime or Cinemax? If so, isn't there a corresponding VOD channel that comes with them? On my system, there's HBO, Cinemax, Showtime and TMC On Demand at least (I'm not sure if there are Starz! or Encore On Demand).

pepar--if you're paying $200/month don't you have one or more of the premium tiers, like HBO, Showtime or Cinemax? If so, isn't there a corresponding VOD channel that comes with them? On my system, there's HBO, Cinemax, Showtime and TMC On Demand at least (I'm not sure if there are Starz! or Encore On Demand).
Sixty of the two hundred is for 8/768 broadband, but yes we're subscribed to HBO, MAX and SHO. I've never even peeked at the VOD offerings and haven't a clue.

Sixty of the two hundred is for 8/768 broadband, but yes we're subscribed to HBO, MAX and SHO. I've never even peeked at the VOD offerings and haven't a clue.The suggestion is that you find a free VOD channel or one in one of the premium tiers that you subscribe to and play around with it to get first hand experience of what you can and cannot do with it using the DVR.

The suggestion is that you find a free VOD channel or one in one of the premium tiers that you subscribe to and play around with it to get first hand experience of what you can and cannot do with it using the DVR.
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Thanks all for the reviews here on the 8300HD.
I got my 1st last Saturday and returned it after an afternoon use as the video was flaky.
After further consideration and reading here I got another sample and after 3 days the results were a lot better than that 1st one.

Some screen shots for those on the fence....

I froze a recording and captured these with 5MP digicam. The usual no light and handheld variety.

Shaky first
http://paulchiu.zoto.com/img/original/ceaf6b93b5c2e5bba8283d46412e09cc-.jpg

better grip
http://paulchiu.zoto.com/img/original/61b160e7112cd48f4f6d5b892e1ee830-.jpg

closeup
http://paulchiu.zoto.com/img/original/cd3ab450be1e173889fc24aecf121f9f-.jpg

even closer to the Westy 37" screen
http://paulchiu.zoto.com/img/original/bb4a3a3965776197dbe5c95b108ca041-.jpg

All with a Monsters Cable DVI connection with a cable based DVR box.
Westinghouse LVM-37W3 1080p 37" Screen settings at
Brightness 50
Contrast 50
Saturation 55
Hue 0
Sharpness 0
Backlight 0

Photos taken at about 3 feet, 2 feet and 1.5 feet


Paul

Too much info and eyes have no pupils, should see a medic. :)

Too much info and eyes have no pupils, should see a medic. :)
Or share. :cool:

"SDV is going to require OCAP"

I am bummed!

Actually, I see posts of folks claiming they are already receiving switched video, does that mean they had OCAP rolled out in thoise areas? And isn't OCAP tied into the new "digital navigator?" I was under the impression that OCAP meant no SARA or Passport... that it was a part of IDN (I think that's what it was called)?

The suggestion is that you find a free VOD channel or one in one of the premium tiers that you subscribe to and play around with it to get first hand experience of what you can and cannot do with it using the DVR.
My cableco has no free VOD channels. There are "InDemand" movie chanels - like six of them - with prices from $3.95 to $9.95.

I am experiencing an issue with my new 8300HD, which I saw written about here a few months ago - If anyone has any additional info I would be grateful if you could tell me how you resolved it. So far Time Warner is pointing the finger at the TV as the culprit, but I called Sony and I don't think that can be the case - the problem disappears when I connect the cable directly to the set and bypass the box.

What has been happening is that most of the time when I start the TV, I see a large black "rectangle and square" (like an L shape) in the upper part of the screen. As soon as I change the channel, it disappears. I can also hit Guide twice and make it go away - I think it's the outline of the Guide.

I'm using an HDMI cable but had the same result with a component cable. Whether I turn the TV on first or the cable box first doesn't seem to matter - or at least whenever it seems to fix itself (and I am lulled into thinking I solved the problem!) it happens again.

I swapped my cable box for a new one today and the same thing is happening. For a few hours, I didn't notice it - and then it started up again. If I reboot the box, the problem stops for a brief period and then starts up again.

I have the box set for all supported resolutions, but if I change it to just 1080i I still experience the issue.

It's true that I can make the problem go away just by changing the channel or hitting Guide twice, but I got worried that this could lead to screen burn in.

Thanks.

I am experiencing an issue with my new 8300HD, which I saw written about here a few months ago - If anyone has any additional info I would be grateful if you could tell me how you resolved it. So far Time Warner is pointing the finger at the TV as the culprit, but I called Sony and I don't think that can be the case - the problem disappears when I connect the cable directly to the set and bypass the box.

What has been happening is that most of the time when I start the TV, I see a large black "rectangle and square" (like an L shape) in the upper part of the screen. As soon as I change the channel, it disappears. I can also hit Guide twice and make it go away - I think it's the outline of the Guide.

I'm using an HDMI cable but had the same result with a component cable. Whether I turn the TV on first or the cable box first doesn't seem to matter - or at least whenever it seems to fix itself (and I am lulled into thinking I solved the problem!) it happens again.

I swapped my cable box for a new one today and the same thing is happening. For a few hours, I didn't notice it - and then it started up again. If I reboot the box, the problem stops for a brief period and then starts up again.

I have the box set for all supported resolutions, but if I change it to just 1080i I still experience the issue.

It's true that I can make the problem go away just by changing the channel or hitting Guide twice, but I got worried that this could lead to screen burn in.

Thanks.

Its a firmware bug in the 8300. If you remove the HDMI cable then you wont see the message. Or you can just clear it the way you were. Good 'ole HDCP.

Thanks. I apologize for not being more knowledgeable about this - what is HDCP? I was not seeing a message on my screen, just a black L.

Since I was figuring that HDMI would be the best type of cable to use in terms of picture quality (plus it outputs audio to the TV if I want to use the TV speakers instead of my stereo), am I harming the set in any way by allowing the black box to appear (and then exiting out). I thought I was getting the same message with the component cable but perhaps I was wrong and I'll check again.

Thanks again.

Thanks. I apologize for not being more knowledgeable about this - what is HDCP? I was not seeing a message on my screen, just a black L.


HDCP = High Definition Copy Protection

It's a form of digital encryption that does far more to prevent consumers from using the technology they've lawfully purchased in the way it was designed and intended to be used than to actually prevent piracy of intellectual content.

Thanks. I apologize for not being more knowledgeable about this - what is HDCP? I was not seeing a message on my screen, just a black L.

Since I was figuring that HDMI would be the best type of cable to use in terms of picture quality (plus it outputs audio to the TV if I want to use the TV speakers instead of my stereo), am I harming the set in any way by allowing the black box to appear (and then exiting out). I thought I was getting the same message with the component cable but perhaps I was wrong and I'll check again.

Thanks again.

There is no harm. If you can deal with the channel change (or whatever) to get rid of the box then stick with HDMI as it is best PQ. Else... component...

"SDV is going to require OCAP"

I am bummed!

Actually, I see posts of folks claiming they are already receiving switched video, does that mean they had OCAP rolled out in thoise areas? And isn't OCAP tied into the new "digital navigator?" I was under the impression that OCAP meant no SARA or Passport... that it was a part of IDN (I think that's what it was called)?No--you misunderstood. What I meant was that SDV was going to require OCAP to implement in a consumer CableCARD device. The Passport and SARA IPGs are running code on a proprietary platform and can do whatever they want.

SDV needs for the tuner to send a message back to the cable system to inform it of what channel(s) you're trying to tune. What I imagine would happen is that the system would make sure that an MPEG transfer stream containing that channel was already on the wire; if not, it would add it to one. It would then send it a message telling your tuner the frequency of the QAM carrier containing the stream, and its program number within the stream.

That little exchange between the tuner amd the system, while not complex, does require some intelligence in the device; that's where OCAP would come in. I don't believe that the cable providers' leased boxes are required to have OCAP; they can just implement SDV in the "resident" firmware. (They're also working to standardize SDV, so that a device wouldn't need to have the large amount of memory necessary for OCAP in order to access SDV channels).

OCAP is not tied to the Navigator Guide. OCAP is a Java-profile based execution environment for portable applications. A television or STB with OCAP can have all kinds of diverse applications downloaded into it by the cable system.

I switched back from the HDMI cable to my component cable, and the "black square" (which is the shape of the onscreen channel guide) still appears. So maybe this is not HDMI related?

I also noticed that sometimes when I try to turn off the cable box, it doesn't (or maybe it just takes a long time) - I see the display that shows the resolution of the last channel flashing, but the box doesn't actually turn off.

Thanks. I apologize for not being more knowledgeable about this - what is HDCP? I was not seeing a message on my screen, just a black L.

Since I was figuring that HDMI would be the best type of cable to use in terms of picture quality (plus it outputs audio to the TV if I want to use the TV speakers instead of my stereo), am I harming the set in any way by allowing the black box to appear (and then exiting out). I thought I was getting the same message with the component cable but perhaps I was wrong and I'll check again.

Thanks again.

I had this issue with the earlier version of Passport from TWC 1.whatever. I used the channel change or just hit guide work arounds.

I no longer have it with 2.5.048, so I don't think its your TV.

Thanks. Maybe they are not giving out the latest boxes here. If so would it be something that could be addressed by a firmware upgrade, otherwise I can ultimately swap the box (again) I guess.....

By the way, how do I find out the version I have?

My cableco has no free VOD channels. There are "InDemand" movie chanels - like six of them - with prices from $3.95 to $9.95.iN Demand Networks (http://www.indemand.com/about/who.jsp) is a supplier of scheduled Pay-Per-View channels. (You know--you order a showing, and it comes on when it's scheduled to come on; if it's not on now, you wait and come back at that time). They have have some "Pay-Per-Viewing-Period" Video On Demand channels for theatrical release films, available at about the same time as the films release on DVD. Their products also include the iNHD channels and the infamous "Howard Stern On Demand", where Howard does whatever he wants, the raunchier the better, because it's pay cable (I think that you have to ask your provider to give you access to it, or pay for it monthy like a subscription tier).

TWC has a bunch of "free" VOD channels; you can see the list of those available on my local system here (http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?ChannelFilter=FREE+On+Demand&Zip=&CLUID=112). With the Video On Demand channels, you "tune" the channel, manipulate the menu to select a program and press PLAY--the program starts playing immediately (well, sometime real soon now, anyway :D). While the program is playing you can use the transport keys on the remote for trick-play functions and if you tune to something else or pause it for a long time, you can come back, select the program again and start where you left off. On those free VOD channels and the ones in the premium tiers that you subscribe to you can watch the program for as long as you like and they're usually posted for a period of 2 or 3 months; the Pay-Per-Viewing-Period ones let you watch for 12 hours (or something like that).

Typically I don't use them--it's SD and the video quality isn't terrific, even on the pay ones (YMMV :)). I sometimes use "HBO On Demand" or "Showtime On Demand", etc to catch up on a new series that I've become interested in; they'll have several episodes of each of the corresponding channel's original series available.

I switched back from the HDMI cable to my component cable, and the "black square" (which is the shape of the onscreen channel guide) still appears. So maybe this is not HDMI related?

I also noticed that sometimes when I try to turn off the cable box, it doesn't (or maybe it just takes a long time) - I see the display that shows the resolution of the last channel flashing, but the box doesn't actually turn off.

Have you removed the HDMI cable completely? IE no HDMI cable plugged to the STB?

Yes, I removed the HDMI cable completely. I think what i'm seeing is the outline of the program guide rather than some error message.

OCAP is not tied to the Navigator Guide. OCAP is a Java-profile based execution environment for portable applications. A television or STB with OCAP can have all kinds of diverse applications downloaded into it by the cable system.
Viruses, too?

[QUOTE=ellen]Thanks. Maybe they are not giving out the latest boxes here. If so would it be something that could be addressed by a firmware upgrade, otherwise I can ultimately swap the box (again) I guess.....

By the way, how do I find out the version I have?[/

On my TWC I can go to ch 888 and it gives the info
Roy

Viruses, too?Conceivably, yes. Your only source of OCAP applications will your cable provider, which will help. I'm not sure what permanent damage an OCAP virus could do, other than delete all the recordings on your DVR. Admittedly, this could be very bad indeed; I'd be pissed if I had 500GB of saved recordings destroyed like that.

I wouldn't waste much time worrying about it--I've never heard of anyone hacking the downloads of new Passport or SARA releases.

I am experiencing an issue with my new 8300HD, which I saw written about here a few months ago - If anyone has any additional info I would be grateful if you could tell me how you resolved it. So far Time Warner is pointing the finger at the TV as the culprit, but I called Sony and I don't think that can be the case - the problem disappears when I connect the cable directly to the set and bypass the box.

What has been happening is that most of the time when I start the TV, I see a large black "rectangle and square" (like an L shape) in the upper part of the screen. As soon as I change the channel, it disappears. I can also hit Guide twice and make it go away - I think it's the outline of the Guide.

I'm using an HDMI cable but had the same result with a component cable. Whether I turn the TV on first or the cable box first doesn't seem to matter - or at least whenever it seems to fix itself (and I am lulled into thinking I solved the problem!) it happens again.

I swapped my cable box for a new one today and the same thing is happening. For a few hours, I didn't notice it - and then it started up again. If I reboot the box, the problem stops for a brief period and then starts up again.

I have the box set for all supported resolutions, but if I change it to just 1080i I still experience the issue.

It's true that I can make the problem go away just by changing the channel or hitting Guide twice, but I got worried that this could lead to screen burn in.

Thanks.

I had the same problem and it disappeared when I changed from HDMI to component cables. TC tech came to the house and said he's seen it before, but TW does not support HDMI.

Carol

HDCP = High Definition Copy Protection

It's a form of digital encryption that does far more to prevent consumers from using the technology they've lawfully purchased in the way it was designed and intended to be used than to actually prevent piracy of intellectual content.Technically it stands for high-bandwidth digital-content protection. Everything else I agree with. :)

Ah Ellen, the infamous "backwards L" issue. I have seen at least 6,754 different reasons posted as to why it happens. Right before I got my display (a 40" LCD Samsung) I set-up and configured a Sony XBR 40" LCD; same TWC-NYC, SA 8300HD source as I have. 4-5 days later, I started seeing this happen (this was at my sister's one block away). Tried all the normal tricks' I could NOT get this to go away. Then I got my Sammie and did NOT see the same thing. Emphatically concluded that it had to be the set...

I had a different issue, so I unplugged my 8300 and brought it over there and the backwards L was STILL there. Absolutely, totally 100% the TV's fault.

Oooops, not so fast! When I got my 8300 back to my place, after a short interval of playing to get the HDMI connection going (both set-ups used HDMI) guess what? Now I have it! Naturally, I cursed my sisters display for voodooing mine! Fortunately, a did a cold re-boot of my box and the problems went away. Dodged that bullet!

Sure seems the issue is in the box. BTW, turn over yours and it will tell you the firmware version and date of mfg. Both out boxes were v 2.2, but hers was mfg. 12/05 and mine 3/06.

How you find out what software and rev varies all over the lot... it very much depends on a combo of location and software. If you lived in Manhattan, NY, it's channel 996. More interesting is getting into the 8300's service menu... you can then see which software and what version and details about your hard disk, like original capacity, formatted capacity, used and free space. Post where you are located and someone should be able to tell you the magic key combos to get there.

Thanks Mike for clearing that up. It's amazing, pretty much everyone I know looks to me to explain complex technology stuff, but this head end cable company stuff I find terribly confusing. Besides, it's not like I have any chance of making ANY kind of choice; I get whatever TWC "gives" me, and no I do NOT consider having the choice to move elsewhere any choice in what cable technologies I'm able to get. The ONLY "move for the technology" thing I even fantasized about was Sweden for 24m/8m Internet access for 30 bucks a month!

I think part of the issue with VOD is that the PPV comes from InDemand and the general marketing seems to mention In Demand and On Demand to the point were it's obviously confusing and easy to mix up. My 2 cents is that VOD first appeared as an adjunct service to those who paid for a premium channel. But (in my area, TWC-NYC) some premiums had it, other didn't (more accurately, TWC didn't carry it, we get HBO VOD but not Starz even if one subscribes to both) Then it transformed that a VOD channel carried a price, much like a premium, but those with multiple premiums got them for free. THEN, way up in the 1000+ channel range, VOD for a lot of "plain old" cable channels appeared. But those were kind of pathetic as most seemed to carry under 10 "shows."

My expectation was that the current VODs were nothing more than a trial run for a VOD based delivery of PPV. Today, PPV is a simple list of 20-25 films...but the goal is a smorgasbord of content (500+ films, every episode of every show, etc.). HOWEVER, VOD just is NOT ready for prime time. To date, it is a totally unreliable service. Very frequently, the whole channel disappears (so far, a cold re-boot usually brings back just getting TO the channel). Secondly, something like 40% of the time you get the dreaded "your movie is unavailable now..."

The "premium channel" VODs are pretty skimpy, they tend to have 25 or less films and all of them seem to be the ones that are already in that months rotation. Of course, none of this has any connection to HD.

And like pepar, I'll now return to my 100% snoozing state!

I suspect that this topic may have been addressed, but I am not sure what to search for. Any info on this would be much appreciated.

I have a 42" VIZIO 16 X 9 LCD TV but I had the same exact issue on a 42" plasma.

SA 8300 HD DVR TWC in San Diego
Tested with both HDMI and Component outputs

on SA box:
1. TV set to 16 X 9 and Normal mode

LCD TV set to 4:3
picture is squeezed on sides and distorted

When I switch the TV to wide mode there is a thin black bar that cuts into the picture on the left side. If I use the TWC box remote and change it to 16 X 9 "stretch mode" it looks fine for a 4 X 3 program (the black bar disappears and the picture is not distorted). However when I watch an HD program I have to change the cable box to normal mode and then the picture fills the screen on the TV and all is well.

Why doesn't Normal mode work (without an extra black line (only on the left side))? Do other people have this problem?
After TWC-SD implemented Digital Simulcast, I see most of the new digital channels with a narrow black strip on the left side of a 4:3 pillerboxed image.
However, some of the new digital channels do not exhibit this anomaly.
I believe that it is a glitch in some of the new QAM Modulators that they added at each local node....and hence different neighbor nodes may experience different channels with this anomaly (or none), depending on the specific complement of QAM Modulators.

It wouldn't hurt if you called TWC and added your complaint to the stack...

Exactly. The neighborhood junction boxes only put things on the local wire which connected subscribers are actually using. This requires communication by the tuners with the system to inform them what you want to tune. Since no neighborhood's worth of subs can be tuning the hundreds of available channels, this will free up huge quantities of bandwidth on the local wire.

(Note that I've edited my post to add some more info about TiVo S3 since you posted your reply).
All of the SDV white papers I've seen presume that a large number of frequently viewed channels (e.g Basic/Extended Digital Simulcasts plus numerous others on digital tier) would be broadcast on fixed QAM allocations and would NOT be switched.
The real question for each MSO is where they draw the line....could be any and all of the optional tiers plus premium offerings would require an STB or future two-way M-Card DVR/HDTV....

Although many systems are obviously using SDV for numerous VOD/PPV/On-Demand offerings, TWC South Carolina is ONLY system that I am aware of conducting a trial of SDV for normal "broadcast" channels--which they limit to the Hispanic, Sports, some Premium channels and some HD channels:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046381&highlight=sdv#post7046381
which has just been tweaked a little:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8328588&highlight=sdv#post8328588

PS: TWC-Austin conducted an SDV trial a couple years ago, but due to lack of discussion in either their thread or website, it is apparent that the trial was terminated long ago.

You're right--I didn't even know where that particular regulation was anymore. It would be punitive to force them to discontinue the use of millions of already purchased boxes. The old boxes will get replaced by attrition, and they'll immediately have to support new boxes with CableCARD.

It's similar to the much discussed reg requiring 1394 support (or at least non-functioning 1394 connections :D) on all the boxes that they buy now. The just can't buy any more boxes that don't have them.
We've discussed that before in this thread, at least in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8268217&&#post8268217) post (I could swear we've talked more about it but I can't turn anything up with a thread search). Thanks for pointing it out. I still have no idea how they're going to get around that block: millions of Plug-and-Play V1 televisions and STBs have been and continue to be sold and regulations continue to require that they support them. They can't use SDV in any neighborhood where anyone's using one and can't offer services requiring bandwidth that would be liberated by SDV in those neighborhoods.
U.S. Court of Appeals denied CHARTER and ADVANCE/NEWHOUSE request to be exempted from the requirement to separate encryption from the STB:
http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6361892
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6364209.html
Hmmm, they didn't mention a similiar waiver request from COMCAST.....

In a separate filing, NCTA submitted a request to the FCC for an extension to end of 2009:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=4182
which may be denied.....although I think it makes more sense to expend engineering talent on DCAS (and OCAP) rather than trying to get M-CARDS to sorta work for not much more than maybe a year's worth of HDTVs & DVRs....

One-way CableCARD was supposed to be a stop-gap until the two-way M-CARDs could be integrated into new HDTVs and DVRs....but now it's just a dead-end on the way to DCAS.....Downloadable Conditional Access System....no more cards of any kind....

FYI: An interesting article on status of OCAP:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6366125.html?industryid=43679

After TWC-SD implemented Digital Simulcast, I see most of the new digital channels with a narrow black strip on the left side of a 4:3 pillerboxed image.
However, some of the new digital channels do not exhibit this anomaly.
I believe that it is a glitch in some of the new QAM Modulators that they added at each local node....and hence different neighbor nodes may experience different channels with this anomaly (or none), depending on the specific complement of QAM Modulators.

It wouldn't hurt if you called TWC and added your complaint to the stack...

It is my understanding that the black blanking line on the left indicates the incoming source from the network to the headend is analog.

FYI: An interesting article on status of OCAP:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6366125.html?industryid=43679Very good article indeed. I'm going to cross-post it to the Tips thread if you don't mind.

Although many systems are obviously using SDV for numerous VOD/PPV/On-Demand offerings, TWC South Carolina is ONLY system that I am aware of conducting a trial of SDV for normal "broadcast" channels--which they limit to the Hispanic, Sports, some Premium channels and some HD channels

Be aware: TW Rochester NY is using SDV for UniversalHD plus a couple of other SD channels. Their management has stated that they will probably use SDV for future HD offerings. Also, TW Rochester is getting ready to offer "Start Over" (I think that is the name) this fall.

PS: That system is SARA.

I tried connecting the 8300HD TWC NYC Passport 2.5.066 to one of my Westinghouse LVM-37W3's DVI ports using a HDMI/DVI adaptor plug and it showed "snow" and indication of "1924x543".

What makes this even more strange is that the other DVI port of the Westinghouse works perfectly at 1920x1080 with the same 8300HD box with the same HDMI/DVI plug.

So I thought my DVI-1 port on my Westinghouse was busted, but upon connected with a 3250HD's DVI port, that mysterious DVI-1 again worked with the 3250HD's DVI out. The DVI-2 worked with the 3250HD's DVI as well.

So here we have these questions.

1. Is HDCP at work somehow?
2. Why would one DVI of the TV work with the 8300HD and not the other?
3. HDMI worked all along.


Please share if you have same findings.

Paul

I tried connecting the 8300HD TWC NYC Passport 2.5.066 to one of my Westinghouse LVM-37W3's DVI ports using a HDMI/DVI adaptor plug and it showed "snow" and indication of "1924x543".

What makes this even more strange is that the other DVI port of the Westinghouse works perfectly at 1920x1080 with the same 8300HD box with the same HDMI/DVI plug.

So I thought my DVI-1 port on my Westinghouse was busted, but upon connected with a 3250HD's DVI port, that mysterious DVI-1 again worked with the 3250HD's DVI out. The DVI-2 worked with the 3250HD's DVI as well.

So here we have these questions.

1. Is HDCP at work somehow?
2. Why would one DVI of the TV work with the 8300HD and not the other?
3. HDMI worked all along.


Please share if you have same findings.

Paul
Paul,

It sounds like HDCP might be at play here. I use HDMI exclusively, but my understanding is that this might be a power up sequence issue. I believe the TV must be powered off and then on again when changing cables or switching Westy ports via your adapter for the HDCP handshaking to take place properly. I always power up my TV first then the STB. But, then again, you may already be doing this! :eek: My other two DVI sources don't require HDCP authentication.

redjr...

I was thinking the same, this was 2AM this morning so I thought it also may have been TWC's overnight maintenance. Certainly that cannot explain one working and not the other.

So Like you, I hard powered down everything and still DVI-2 worked and DVI-1 did not with 8300HD.

As Noted earlier, the HDCP also equipted 3250HD box worked with both DVI. The 3250HD is natively DVI while the 8300HD is native HDMI.

The only thing is maybe the 8300HD has permanent memory inside that recognizes the DVI-2 as the first DVI port, but that's really and truly WEIRD if it did.

I am trying to get hold of a new HDMI to DVI cable to test later, since I already tried more than a few HDMI cables with HDMI/DVI adaptor plugs...

Paul




Paul,

It sounds like HDCP might be at play here. I use HDMI exclusively, but my understanding is that this might be a power up sequence issue. I believe the TV must be powered off and then on again when changing cables or switching Westy ports via your adapter for the HDCP handshaking to take place properly. I always power up my TV first then the STB. But, then again, you may already be doing this! :eek: My other two DVI sources don't require HDCP authentication.

redjr...

U.S. Court of Appeals denied CHARTER and ADVANCE/NEWHOUSE request to be exempted from the requirement to separate encryption from the STB:
http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6361892
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6364209.html
Hmmm, they didn't mention a similiar waiver request from COMCAST.....

In a separate filing, NCTA submitted a request to the FCC for an extension to end of 2009:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=4182
which may be denied.....although I think it makes more sense to expend engineering talent on DCAS (and OCAP) rather than trying to get M-CARDS to sorta work for not much more than maybe a year's worth of HDTVs & DVRs....

One-way CableCARD was supposed to be a stop-gap until the two-way M-CARDs could be integrated into new HDTVs and DVRs....but now it's just a dead-end on the way to DCAS.....Downloadable Conditional Access System....no more cards of any kind....DCAS is cool, but it's easily co-existent with M-CARDs and the cable systems could use M-CARDs in the interrim--no reason to give them the extension and I doubt the CEA will stand for it. The FCC's mandate to separate conditional access from leased boxes is now 10 years old and 9 years overdue for implementation; letting the cable industry stall for another two years is senseless, particularly when all analog television shuts off at the end of that time.

There was a 2-way communication mechanism and some built-in-function+HTML scheme for interactivity in the first CableCARD spec which would have worked, though it wouldn't have been horribly flexible. The cable industry held out for OCAP (no talk about multi-stream then at all). In 2009 there'll doubtlessly be something else they'd rather wait for. It's like sitting on the fence shopping for state-of-the-art electronics :rolleyes:.

EDIT: I hadn't read that tvtechnology.com article on the extension filing when I first posted this. Gary Shapiro expresses my sentiments exactly. I hadn't realized that the cable industry had such a strong profit motive in stalling: $2.34 billion/year in STB leases ain't chicken feed.

That multichannel.com piece by Leslie Ellis was obviously either written or commissioned by the cable industry (they don't say who Leslie is). His/her assertion that the "integration ban" does nothing for consumers doesn't address the fact that the cable industry has provided hideously poor support for unidirectional CableCARD and done everything that it possible could to discourage the use of them. It would treat any regulation requiring that they support M-CARDs exactly the same, if they're not required to use them for their own leased boxes.

It is my understanding that the black blanking line on the left indicates the incoming source from the network to the headend is analog.I'm on the same system as holl_ands, but I'm using an 8000HD. There is not the slightest hint of that blank band on the left when viewing digital simulcast channels. I'm not sure, but I don't think that people with the non-DVR boxes see it either. It would seem to be an 8300HD specific thing.

holl_ands, do you still have a Pace? If so, do you see the bar when using it?

Paul,

Did you happen to try a hard/soft reboot after changing cables/inputs, etc.? It may be possible something was in the 8300 cache that precluded a proper HDCP handshake. I doubt this is the case, but there is no harm trying to further pinpoint the problem.

Do the providers presently know how many STBs are tuned to any given channel on their systems?

Do the providers presently know how many STBs are tuned to any given channel on their systems?It's unclear. They certainly could have implemented a mechanism with which to keep track of that at any time since they've had interactive services requiring a backchannel like Impulse Pay-Per-View (several years at least). Beyond what value the data has for them (like deteremining what services they could safely remove, if desired), they could probably sell it. Of course, they can't know what all of the people using their televisions' tuners are watching.

TiVo, whose only backchannel was the nightly telephone connection to download new guide info, was collecting such information from their boxes and selling it, which caused a brief stink over privacy issues. (They still do this, as far as I know; TiVo is extremely aggressive with creating deals to integrate television advertising efforts with their box).

I did both a hard (power plug out) for several minutes as well as soft boot with finger on power on button until "boot".

I have done both more than 4 times now.

Still wondering if there is some permanent memory kept on the hard drive...

Paul




Paul,

Did you happen to try a hard/soft reboot after changing cables/inputs, etc.? It may be possible something was in the 8300 cache that precluded a proper HDCP handshake. I doubt this is the case, but there is no harm trying to further pinpoint the problem.

It's unclear. They certainly could have implemented a mechanism with which to keep track of that at any time since they've had interactive services requiring a backchannel like Impulse Pay-Per-View (several years at least). Beyond what value the data has for them (like deteremining what services they could safely remove, if desired), they could probably sell it. Of course, they can't know what all of the people using their televisions' tuners are watching.
That's what was behind my query; at some point, the consumed bandwidth of all those channels becomes more valuable than the marketing advantage of being able to tout having all . . those . . channels. If only one in two hundred subscribers are watching a channel, get rid of it to add something more popular. But then maybe SDV will allow the strange and obscure to survive.

I did both a hard (power plug out) for several minutes as well as soft boot with finger on power on button until "boot".

I have done both more than 4 times now.

Still wondering if there is some permanent memory kept on the hard drive...

Paul
Hard to imagine anything permanent being kept on a hard drive.

...I hard powered down everything and still DVI-2 worked and DVI-1 did not with 8300HD...
Paul

When I had DVI I found, like many others, that the startup sequence was critical. For me it was TV on first, then box. For others it was the reverse. Turning the box off, pulling the DVI plug out of the box, then reinserting it and doing the startup sequence worked for others. Also, people got things working just by changing channels or switching to another input by remote and then switching back to DVI.
I also remember several people were able to get started just by switching the box or TV off and then on again with the remote.

So much for handshaking (and rejection) in the modern world.

-Mike

I believe the cableco's know exactly how many folks with boxes are tuning to every one of their channels. I believe this because during my conversations with cable reps, they've always seemed to know which channels were highly used and which were on the short end of the stick. I assume this data is also part of the negotiation process with those who bundle channels, carry all or carry none. I don't believe they capture viewing habits of those without boxes, but the general usage should be very similar and still statistically valid.

I believe the cableco's know exactly how many folks with boxes are tuning to every one of their channels. I believe this because during my conversations with cable reps, they've always seemed to know which channels were highly used and which were on the short end of the stick. I assume this data is also part of the negotiation process with those who bundle channels, carry all or carry none. I don't believe they capture viewing habits of those without boxes, but the general usage should be very similar and still statistically valid.
I seem to remember from the analog TV days that a truck with the right gear could cruise through a neighborhood and be able to tell what channels were being watched by monitoring some intermediate frequency emitted from the televisions. I could be mistaken, but I have that memory fragment from somewhere. :)

Pepar,

I seem to recall that you mentioned an upcoming release of Aptiv Echo that supposedly was going to fix the eSATA issues. Did you ever hear any more on that subject?

After unplugging, plugging, rebooting, going to and from 3250HD and 8300HD boxes for over 2 hours. I even changed to the new OPPO 971 DVD, everything BUT the 8300HD HDMI out worked as expected with the Westy 37" DVI-1 input.

SO finally, I connected the 8300HD HDMI out with the Gefen 2x2 Distribution Amp and the Gefen out1 to the DVI-1 input of the Westy.

IT WORK!

Here is the strange thing. When I powered off the Westy 37" and connected the DVI cable to the DVI-2 port, same thing, SNOW.

Then, I simply toggle the input selector of the Gefen 2x2 and the DVI-2 worked as well.

This tells me that there has got to be some strange HDCP action taking place such that the 8300HD believes something is afoul with the digital content and protective action was triggered.

Where no hard or soft boot reseted that HDCP "lock", the Gefen 2x2 Amp managed to do just that.

Gee, $349 for just this? Gosh, the strange world of HDCP!

Paul

PS. Thank you all for the great HELP. I was thinking bad Westy 37W3 and all the trouble of returning it.....

Still, I am thinking this 8300HD DVR may be too much trouble since we have this handshake problem now added to the list of other issues. Problems like D-VHS recording, firewire, etc....







When I had DVI I found, like many others, that the startup sequence was critical. For me it was TV on first, then box. For others it was the reverse. Turning the box off, pulling the DVI plug out of the box, then reinserting it and doing the startup sequence worked for others. Also, people got things working just by changing channels or switching to another input by remote and then switching back to DVI.
I also remember several people were able to get started just by switching the box or TV off and then on again with the remote.

So much for handshaking (and rejection) in the modern world.

-Mike

Still, I am thinking this 8300HD DVR may be too much trouble since we have this handshake problem now added to the list of other issues. Problems like D-VHS recording, firewire, etc....

What audio output choice did you select on the 8300? DD or HDMI? During any of your attempts did you change that setting?

I ask because while using HDMI (only, no DVI) if I change audio output from HDMI to DD AND change my TV's input source (to Component using my Receiver for Audio) when I turn off my Receiver and return to the original input source (on TV) I will get "snow" displayed.

To avoid "snow" I must change the 8300 audio output back to HDMI first before changing my TV's input source (back to HDMI). I think it is more an HDMI handshake issue (in my case).

Pepar,

I seem to recall that you mentioned an upcoming release of Aptiv Echo that supposedly was going to fix the eSATA issues. Did you ever hear any more on that subject?
I haven't heard any more, but then I've not communicated with my contact for a few months. And actually, my intel on 5/18 was that "the official release of the SATA port (code) will not be until late summer." I've never heard anything about eSATA issues being fixed. (I assume you mean the loss of "trick-play" features as everything else works fine.) I will quesry my contact and post whatever the reply is.

I haven't heard any more, but then I've not communicated with my contact for a few months. And actually, my intel on 5/18 was that "the official release of the SATA port (code) will not be until late summer." I've never heard anything about eSATA issues being fixed. (I assume you mean the loss of "trick-play" features as everything else works fine.) I will quesry my contact and post whatever the reply is.

Thanks Pepar... Yes, the trick play loss was what I was referring to.

For the 8300HD, I had it through internal HDTV speakers, so I had "HDMI" for audio selected. When I try switching to the DVI-1 port of my Westinghouse, I did not change the audio settings.

The snow and at other points, a 1924x543 screenful of snow really got me worried that my 1080p panel was afoul...

Paul



What audio output choice did you select on the 8300? DD or HDMI? During any of your attempts did you change that setting?

I ask because while using HDMI (only, no DVI) if I change audio output from HDMI to DD AND change my TV's input source (to Component using my Receiver for Audio) when I turn off my Receiver and return to the original input source (on TV) I will get "snow" displayed.

To avoid "snow" I must change the 8300 audio output back to HDMI first before changing my TV's input source (back to HDMI). I think it is more an HDMI handshake issue (in my case).

I seem to remember from the analog TV days that a truck with the right gear could cruise through a neighborhood and be able to tell what channels were being watched by monitoring some intermediate frequency emitted from the televisions. I could be mistaken, but I have that memory fragment from somewhere. :)
In modern superheterodyne tuner design, the input frequency (e.g. 470 MHz for CH14) is mixed with a higher Local Oscillator (LO) frequency, which operates at a frequency that is typically 45.75 MHz higher than the input frequency (e.g. 515.75 MHz). The difference (515.75 - 470 MHz) output of the Mixer is then passed through a high gain, highly selective 45.75 MHz Intermediate Frequency (IF) amplifier that is carefully tailored to process only the desired 6 MHz bandwidth TV/DTV signal. LO leakage will be greatly attenuated, but some of it will be radiated via an attached TV antenna....but will be greatly attenuated if attached only to cable.

You could run around the neighborhood with a Spectrum Analyzer looking for leakage of these LO signals....but even signals radiated via a TV antenna will be very close to the sensitivity level....

Good luck, cuz you are also going to see all the intermod products from local TV stations, weak signals from distant TV stations, second and third harmonics from lower frequency band users, interference generated from thousands of nearby computers, appliances with embedded processors, televisions, Cable/SAT/OTA STBs, flourescent lights and spark-gap transmissions from the brushes on every active motor in the neighborhood....oh, and don't forget leakage from the ubiquitous cable system, which occupies nearly every frequency from 54 to 850+ MHz.

And then you'll have to decide which of several LO signals correspond to what I'm REALLY watching, since each tuner in my house could give you a different LO frequency: two from each of two SA8300HD's, one from the SA3250HD Firewire source, two from the dual tuners in my HDTV, another from my second TV and each of the VCRs.....

Pepar,

I seem to recall that you mentioned an upcoming release of Aptiv Echo that supposedly was going to fix the eSATA issues. Did you ever hear any more on that subject?

While I'm not into the 2.5.x series (yet?), from what I see posted, the latest rev is 2.5.068 (I know someone posted this rev although there are a lot more 066 posts), and I've NOT read that this rev fixes "trick play" issues.

I once spent some time in an apartment in Colorado Springs before my house was ready for move in. One day the cable guys came knocking on the door. They said they were cruising the neighborhood looking for folks who had split their cable. I believe it was the leakage they detected, but they were able to pinpoint a specific apartment, I don't know about a specific channel or anything like that though. This was back in the day when you had to pay for multiple connections and we were near an airport. I don't know how true it was, but they told my wife that they routinely cruised that area because stray signals could interfer with flight operations. We saw their truck several more times before we moved out.

I had the same problem and it disappeared when I changed from HDMI to component cables. TC tech came to the house and said he's seen it before, but TW does not support HDMI.

Carol


So far I'm seeing the "backwards L" when I switch back from HDMI to component -I was wondering, is there a way to return the box to its factory settings and "start over" with component settings and not use HDMI? Or does rebooting do that?

In modern superheterodyne tuner design, the input frequency (e.g. 470 MHz for CH14) is mixed with a higher Local Oscillator (LO) frequency, which operates at a frequency that is typically 45.75 MHz higher than the input frequency (e.g. 515.75 MHz). The difference (515.75 - 470 MHz) output of the Mixer is then passed through a high gain, highly selective 45.75 MHz Intermediate Frequency (IF) amplifier that is carefully tailored to process only the desired 6 MHz bandwidth TV/DTV signal. LO leakage will be greatly attenuated, but some of it will be radiated via an attached TV antenna....but will be greatly attenuated if attached only to cable.

You could run around the neighborhood with a Spectrum Analyzer looking for leakage of these LO signals....but even signals radiated via a TV antenna will be very close to the sensitivity level....

Good luck, cuz you are also going to see all the intermod products from local TV stations, weak signals from distant TV stations, second and third harmonics from lower frequency band users, interference generated from thousands of nearby computers, appliances with embedded processors, televisions, Cable/SAT/OTA STBs, flourescent lights and spark-gap transmissions from the brushes on every active motor in the neighborhood....oh, and don't forget leakage from the ubiquitous cable system, which occupies nearly every frequency from 54 to 850+ MHz.

And then you'll have to decide which of several LO signals correspond to what I'm REALLY watching, since each tuner in my house could give you a different LO frequency: two from each of two SA8300HD's, one from the SA3250HD Firewire source, two from the dual tuners in my HDTV, another from my second TV and each of the VCRs.....
Maybe my memory fragment is actually a 35-year old urban legend. :)

So far I'm seeing the "backwards L" when I switch back from HDMI to component -I was wondering, is there a way to return the box to its factory settings and "start over" with component settings and not use HDMI? Or does rebooting do that?

Just remove the HDMI cable completely (from the tv and from the STB). If you want to go further, hold down the power switch on the STB until it says 'boot'.

...the leakage they detected ... because stray signals could interfere with flight operations...(again - unsourced anecdote) but I was told recently that the FCC could fine the cable company for frequency [interference/leakage].

And there all kinds of problems with devices emitting 121.5/243 MHz that generate emergency locator transmitter (ELT) responses, generating a move (http://www.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3723) to 406 MHz beacons...

v/r,
C-F

So far I'm seeing the "backwards L" when I switch back from HDMI to component -I was wondering, is there a way to return the box to its factory settings and "start over" with component settings and not use HDMI? Or does rebooting do that?

I looked over my log and see that in the midst of all the HDMI problems, I got a new cable box from TW. The new box fixed the backwards L, but not the other HDMI problems.

Carol

Maybe my memory fragment is actually a 35-year old urban legend. :)
Actually, I am pretty sure that this was a technique that was used in England where people had to pay a "usage" (or some other name) tax. Don't know if they still do this (or even collect the tax - which was used to support BBC-TV).

I once spent some time in an apartment in Colorado Springs before my house was ready for move in. One day the cable guys came knocking on the door. They said they were cruising the neighborhood looking for folks who had split their cable. I believe it was the leakage they detected, but they were able to pinpoint a specific apartment, I don't know about a specific channel or anything like that though. This was back in the day when you had to pay for multiple connections and we were near an airport. I don't know how true it was, but they told my wife that they routinely cruised that area because stray signals could interfer with flight operations. We saw their truck several more times before we moved out.
Leakage may be evidence of a poor cable connection....but a piece of test equipment called a Time Delay Reflectometer (TDR) will tell them how far away each splitter and TV/VCR is located and by comparing to previous scans, whether a new one has been added.

I'm on the same system as holl_ands, but I'm using an 8000HD. There is not the slightest hint of that blank band on the left when viewing digital simulcast channels. I'm not sure, but I don't think that people with the non-DVR boxes see it either. It would seem to be an 8300HD specific thing.

holl_ands, do you still have a Pace? If so, do you see the bar when using it?
A couple weeks ago I traded in the PACE for a second SA8300HD.
[As she passed me the box, the CSR told me they only issue one per household.....uh-huh....as I calmly accepted the box...]

Carpet install delayed getting the L.R. system put back together (Plasma, HD-DVR, HD-STB w Firewire, OTA STB, D-VHS, DVD, Surround Rcvr, ThirdOctaveEq & Power Amp for 15-inch pair, BiAmp for 10-in L/R pair, auto-sensing Amp for "subwoofer" output on Plasma and a total of a dozen!!! individual speaker connections)....but it's finally up and running again.....and contributing to the heat wave we're experiencing....

SA3250HD has always run same PASSPORT version as PACE DC-550P.
I do not see the black strip on either it's Component Video output or the Firewire Interface to the JVC D-VHS (connected via Component Video).

So the black strip on the left of a 4:3 pillarbox is apparently only seen in the SA8300HD on it's Component Video (or HDMI interface)....but not Video/S-Video.

Actually, I am pretty sure that this was a technique that was used in England where people had to pay a "usage" (or some other name) tax. Don't know if they still do this (or even collect the tax - which was used to support BBC-TV).

Several years ago I was in Weston on the English west coast and I noticed an unmarked van with a remote-operated donut shaped antenna on top, moving slowly, fairly close to the overhead cable lines. I asked what they were doing and I was told they were checking for people who were not paying for cable service.

-Mike

This was back in '90, so it's been a while, but I'm sure the technology probably hasn't changed all that much for this application. And it was a bad connection that led them to my door. :)

I have a new 50PX60U Panny plasma. It has very little overscan.

When viewing ABC HD (Channel 710 in San Diego) in 720p with the SA8300HD, I see a few lines of video noise at the top of the picture. I don't have this problem if I set the SA8300HD to output in 1080i, but I'd like to watch material broadcast in 720p w/o conversion.

If I either: a). view this same channel (10.1) OTA using an external antenna, or b) I plug in the TWC cable directly into the tv (bypassing the SA8300HD) and view the unencrypted HD signal (Channel 10.1), then the lines are gone.

So I know the SA8300HD is either shrinking the picture slightly or is moving the picture down slightly.

I haven't found a way to adjust the overscan in the Panny. So is there any way to fix this problem in the SA8300HD?

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with this issue? I've been out of the country for the past 6 months and was wondering if TWC in San Diego has released new 8300 boxes (or any other new boxes for that matter) or if anyone has figured out a workaround. I am still seeing the "horizontal noise line" at the top of some HD channels, which is very annoying when I want to show off the TV and HD to my friends.

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with this issue? I've been out of the country for the past 6 months and was wondering if TWC in San Diego has released new 8300 boxes (or any other new boxes for that matter) or if anyone has figured out a workaround. I am still seeing the "horizontal noise line" at the top of some HD channels, which is very annoying when I want to show off the TV and HD to my friends.
I *think* that's been discussed here; did you try searching? :)

Some displays can be adjusted like a computer monitor and change image size and location. Not by as much as a computer monitor, but a handful of pixels can make all the difference in the world. My Sony XBR CRT has that capability, so I'm guessing that fixed pixel displays surely would.

This was back in '90, so it's been a while, but I'm sure the technology probably hasn't changed all that much for this application. And it was a bad connection that led them to my door. :)
Maybe they showed up at everyone's door with that spiel and you acted guilty. :D

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with this issue? I've been out of the country for the past 6 months and was wondering if TWC in San Diego has released new 8300 boxes (or any other new boxes for that matter) or if anyone has figured out a workaround. I am still seeing the "horizontal noise line" at the top of some HD channels, which is very annoying when I want to show off the TV and HD to my friends.You might want to ask in the TWC forum at hdtv.forsandiego.com (http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html?1157465076).

Last time I had a cable guy out he told me to make sure I keep the terminations on all the unused taps of my splitter so it doesn't show up on the sniffers they use to test for "leaks" in the cable system. My impression was that its more of a RFI issue than theft.

Last time I had a cable guy out he told me to make sure I keep the terminations on all the unused taps of my splitter so it doesn't show up on the sniffers they use to test for "leaks" in the cable system. My impression was that its more of a RFI issue than theft.I'm no electrical engineer and never took electromagnetics in college, but intuitively, I don't understand this. Why would it be worse to have unused taps at a splitter as opposed to running those taps to unused jacks throughout the house? Millions of homes are wired that way, and I've never heard any advice to terminate unused wall jacks.

I'm no electrical engineer and never took electromagnetics in college, but intuitively, I don't understand this. Why would it be worse to have unused taps at a splitter as opposed to running those taps to unused jacks throughout the house? Millions of homes are wired that way, and I've never heard any advice to terminate unused wall jacks.

Its exactly the same problem. The only difference may be that the splitter may be outside the structure while the wall taps are inside.

Several years ago I was in Weston on the English west coast and I noticed an unmarked van with a remote-operated donut shaped antenna on top, moving slowly, fairly close to the overhead cable lines. I asked what they were doing and I was told they were checking for people who were not paying for cable service.

-Mike
The unmarked van was probably looking for leakage of the cable signal via poor connections and/or Local Oscillator leakage via either an On-Air or SAT antenna, since the leakage level via cable is extremely weak.

BTW: In the U.K. operation of an unlicenced TV is a crime.....

Over 30 OTA TV channels are provided via FREEVIEW service--which is FREE after purchase of a suitable TV and/or OTA STB:
http://www.freeview.co.uk/
A transition to digital OTA TV has just begun, wherein many more SD channels will be packed into each digital OTA carrier than is typically found in the U.S.

However, watching TV isn't free. There is a yearly license fee of about $250 for each household, irrespective of whether they watch via on-air, cable or satellite:
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp
Hence the sniffer van looking for unlicensed TV operations....who are usually watching via On-Air Antenna....

I'm no electrical engineer and never took electromagnetics in college, but intuitively, I don't understand this. Why would it be worse to have unused taps at a splitter as opposed to running those taps to unused jacks throughout the house? Millions of homes are wired that way, and I've never heard any advice to terminate unused wall jacks.
Whenever there is a discontinuity in the impedance (e.g. short or open circuit at an unterminated wall jack), essentially all of the signal energy will bounce back up the cable.
When it hits an RF Splitter, some of the energy will be coupled across into the port leading to your HDTV, resulting in multipath.
The strength of this multipath will depend on how much port-to-port isolation is provided by the RF Splitter--which is typically 20 dB or more.
Unless there is a problem in the RF Splitter, this small amount of multipath should cause no problems to either Analog or digital QAM reception.

In older installations, Resistive Splitter networks might have been employed, which have much lower port-to-port isolation (e.g. 6 dB for a 2-port splitter). This would result in visible multipath on analog signals and would degrade digital QAM signals.

So terminating all of the unused wall jacks and RF Splitter ports usually falls into the Obsessive-Compulsive category for modern networks....other than preventing leakage of the cable signals.

Last time I had a cable guy out he told me to make sure I keep the terminations on all the unused taps of my splitter so it doesn't show up on the sniffers they use to test for "leaks" in the cable system. My impression was that its more of a RFI issue than theft.
Each discontinuity reflects energy back to their Time Domain Reflectometer (TDR), whether due to an unterminated splitter or wall jack, making it more difficult for them to find crimped cables and other faults in their cable splitter network. They're trying to minimize cable leakage.....as well as the "red herrings"....so when someone strings an unauthorized cable to their next door neighbor, it will be more readily seen on their TDR.

The unmarked van was probably looking for leakage of the cable signal via poor connections and/or Local Oscillator leakage via either an On-Air or SAT antenna, since the leakage level via cable is extremely weak.

BTW: In the U.K. operation of an unlicenced TV is a crime.....

Over 30 OTA TV channels are provided via FREEVIEW service--which is FREE after purchase of a suitable TV and/or OTA STB:
http://www.freeview.co.uk/
A transition to digital OTA TV has just begun, wherein many more SD channels will be packed into each digital OTA carrier than is typically found in the U.S.

However, watching TV isn't free. There is a yearly license fee of about $250 for each household, irrespective of whether they watch via on-air, cable or satellite:
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp
Hence the sniffer van looking for unlicensed TV operations....who are usually watching via On-Air Antenna....

I had direct experience with this in the UK. Its no joke. They did endeed sniff for unlicensed TVs and I had friends who got fined.

Hey, we were all poor.

I'm sure this isn't a new problem, but my girlfriend just received her Samsung 4092D 40" LCD the other day. She also got a new SA8300 DVR box. When I connected the SA8300 via HDMI, I got the "This Device is Not HDCP Compatible, please connect via component cable" error. I would assume the problem is with the SA8300 software? I tried different power on sequences, different HDMI cables, etc. and was not able to alleviate this problem. Are there any workarounds for it?

Hey, we were all poor.

No sh*t!

Your GF has good taste, that exactly what I have. The only odd thing I've seen is a "no signal" error from the display, but that was all about the HDMI handshake.

8300HDs use 2 different applications (SARA & Passport) with numerous versions of each. As this is a Passport thread, we assume Passport, then what version is the question. If you don't know how to find out (it varies) best to mention location (as in city, state is no good).

No sh*t!

Your GF has good taste, that exactly what I have. The only odd thing I've seen is a "no signal" error from the display, but that was all about the HDMI handshake.

8300HDs use 2 different applications (SARA & Passport) with numerous versions of each. As this is a Passport thread, we assume Passport, then what version is the question. If you don't know how to find out (it varies) best to mention location (as in city, state is no good).


It's the passport version. Sorry for not being more specific :cool:

No sh*t!

Your GF has good taste, that exactly what I have. The only odd thing I've seen is a "no signal" error from the display, but that was all about the HDMI handshake.

8300HDs use 2 different applications (SARA & Passport) with numerous versions of each. As this is a Passport thread, we assume Passport, then what version is the question. If you don't know how to find out (it varies) best to mention location (as in city, state is no good).
I think fotomatt1's problem is so basic that it is not related to the IPG/firmware/whateverTFit'scalled. I have no idea what the problem is; only a sense of what it is not. :D

I have seen numerous posts on different messageboards about similar issues with the SA8300....only problem is that I haven't seen a fix. I'm going to call Time Warner this weekend and see what's up. I'll also try one more different cable.

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with this issue? I've been out of the country for the past 6 months and was wondering if TWC in San Diego has released new 8300 boxes (or any other new boxes for that matter) or if anyone has figured out a workaround. I am still seeing the "horizontal noise line" at the top of some HD channels, which is very annoying when I want to show off the TV and HD to my friends.


I don't think this is a San Diego issue. I'm in NYC on TWC, and also have a Panasonic TH37PX50U (series yours superceded). I occasionally get the horizontal "noise", if you will, on some digital channels. I get it on HBO when they are in 4:3 mode, and I also sometimes get it on WNBC, Channel 4, digital.

The WNBC thing should be mostly remedied when they go mostly HD 16:9 for local programming. HBO? Looks great in HD 16:9, but always get the horizontal stuff at the top in 4:3 (some of HBO's programs are not wide-screen HD).

I only have my 8300DVR set to 1080i output. Only two channels here are 720p, but they still look better at 1080i from the 8300HD because the Panasonic's native scaler wants to output 1080i, I believe. Plus, adding the additional output resolutions to the 8300HD adds to the channel-changing time, as it has to switch out to various output formats.

I haven't seen a way to move the Panny's screen "a few pixels". I'd like to know if it is possible. Would be even nicer if I could do it from the SA 8300HD box.

I'm in NYC where many are experiencing momentary picture freezes and sound dropouts for weeks now.
I check my signal numbers every once in a while and 3 weeks ago I was getting solid SNR numbers around 39 and very steady downstream power levels of zero on my Motorola cable modem.
For the past 2 weeks the SNR has dropped to a steady 36 and the downstream power levels are now fluctuating from -5 to +2 dBmV on the modem. The SNR on the cable box is the same as the modem and the power level readings at the box are about 3 dBmV lower than the modem. The box is one split away from the modem, so I would expect the power level to be lower, but it has been jumping all around.

SA8300HD 1.8.112

Can someone comment about what, if anything, might be going on here?

I'm trying to use my HDMI cable with my Digital PJ and my SA8300HD, but all it says is an HDCP compliance error!

which digital pj ?

Panny AE900u

I'm in NYC where many are experiencing momentary picture freezes and sound dropouts for weeks now.
I check my signal numbers every once in a while and 3 weeks ago I was getting solid SNR numbers around 39 and very steady downstream power levels of zero on my Motorola cable modem.
For the past 2 weeks the SNR has dropped to a steady 36 and the downstream power levels are now fluctuating from -5 to +2 dBmV on the modem. The SNR on the cable box is the same as the modem and the power level readings at the box are about 3 dBmV lower than the modem. The box is one split away from the modem, so I would expect the power level to be lower, but it has been jumping all around.

SA8300HD 1.8.112

Can someone comment about what, if anything, might be going on here?
Anyone having problems like this should call their provider's technical support FIRST to schedule a service call. And post here, maybe, after the technician has visited and fixed the problem.

I'm in NYC where many are experiencing momentary picture freezes and sound dropouts for weeks now.


I just started experiencing the same issue for about 2-3 days now. I wonder what the issue is? I'm here in Orlando under Brighthouse Networks.

- JOhn

Anyone having problems like this should call their provider's technical support FIRST to schedule a service call. And post here, maybe, after the technician has visited and fixed the problem.

I'm FIRST trying to find out if someone who actually knows about these numbers thinks there IS a problem as opposed to TWC NYC tech support, who will tell me that they don't support SNR's and downstream signal levels--so I asked Pepar'sForum...ooops, AVSForum. Sorry if that offended you in some inexplicable way.

-Mike

I'm FIRST trying to find out if someone who actually knows about these numbers thinks there IS a problem as opposed to TWC NYC tech support, who will tell me that they don't support SNR's and downstream signal levels--so I asked Pepar'sForum...ooops, AVSForum. Sorry if that offended you in some inexplicable way.

-Mike
"power levels are now fluctuating" = call to tech support. Period.

"power levels are now fluctuating" = call to tech support. Period.

Pepar is right... The SN and power numbers sound good but if the signal levels are going up and down then something is wrong. You didnt mention how 'quick' the fluctuations were.

Pepar is right... The SN and power numbers sound good but if the signal levels are going up and down then something is wrong. You didnt mention how 'quick' the fluctuations were.

Thank you for your help. Power levels at the modem are changing over a period of hours, but changing constantly at the box. If I didn't post the question I wouldn't know I had a problem. I don't think it's appropriate for pepar to try to discourage anyone from posting relevant topics on this forum, but that is another issue that does not belong in this thread.

-Mike

Thank you for your help. Power levels at the modem are changing over a period of hours, but changing constantly at the box. If I didn't post the question I wouldn't know I had a problem. I don't think it's appropriate for pepar to try to discourage anyone from posting relevant topics on this forum, but that is another issue that does not belong in this thread.

-Mike

Mike, it isn't that pepar isn't discouraging posting relevant topics - he was just giving you good advice. Your cable company (at least the guy that comes to your house) is the one to take care of level problems.

However, you have been looking for info, and apparently the regulars on this Passport thread aren't aware of what goes on in the SARA threads. Here is an excellent description of these levels by hollands:Post 3662 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8358223&&#post8358223)

I'm not sure that this corresponds exactly to Passport - but it is a start for a better understanding. :D

I should point out that the info Dave refers to has been added to the first post in that thread. Even though TPTB on AVS have designated that thread as being limited to SARA, I believe the first post is worth reading for anyone with an SA8300HD DVR. Even though button sequences, etc., may differ between SARA and Passport, a lot of the info is applicable to the SA8300HD in general and can be useful when trouble-shooting problems or strange behavior.

Good point, Dave.

...Here is an excellent description of these levels by hollands:Post 3662 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8358223&&#post8358223)

I'm not sure that this corresponds exactly to Passport - but it is a start for a better understanding. :D

Very informative. Thank you. I've stayed up checking on the SNR's and power levels and I find now (around midnight) that everything has stabilized. I'm getting SNR of 36 at the modem and the cable box and power levels around -3 at the modem and -6 at the box. I guess I should have mentioned before that there is an enormous amount of construction activity in my immediate area. There is a new huge apartment building 40 feet away on the opposite side of my street just being finished, with every utility making holes everywhere, while another new building is going up on the opposite corner, with holes everywhere.
I don't know what all that might have to do with my signal levels, but I thought it should be mentioned.

I also read and printed the first post in that thread--Thanks DoubleDAZ

-Mike

You're welcome. FWIW, my signal levels fluctuate somewhat to, especially from channel to channel, but I'm not experiencing any problems and they don't fluctuate by more than 1-2 dBmV on any given channel and they don't fluctuate all that often. I suppose a lot of construction activity might affect some poor connections somewhere in the area. You might want to keep track of the activity and your levels to see if you can spot any trend. I had excellent levels on my first cable modem for over 10 years until all of a sudden I started losing the connection several times a day, but it would always come back. The problem turned out to be a completely loose connection behind the wall-plate, the cable was not even crimped on the connector. Apparently it had simply worked loose over time from normal every day vibrations or something. Unfortunately, it took a service call to discover the problem, and they fixed it for free, but oftentimes the problem turns out to be something really simple like a loose cable or faulty splitter.

How are these measurements being taken? Cable modem is mentioned several times, so is the issue with what's going on with it, or the TV side?

For many years I have seen the issues of glitches on the TV side come and go. Sometimes I'll rarely see them, other times they can get very annoying. I have also (more than once) seen one broadcast be so "glitchy" that I switch away, only to find no glitches on a different channel. i.e. it's all over the lot.

Given these experiences, I'm just not so sure calling a tech out will accomplish all that much. Do I get him to sit there with measuring equipment hooked up for an hour of two waiting for something to happen?

As for "the signal" I had an interesting experience 8 months ago. As Dave mentions, I started having issues with my internet connection. Same symptoms. On the TV side, all was (relatively) normal, no big increase in the number or frequency of those glitches. Tech comes to visit and finds 'issues" in my signal. "Engineering" needs to be called because they trace serious issues to the sixth floor (I'm on 10). Meanwhile, I'm not noticing anything unusual on the TV side. Finally, they have a crew spent the day re-doing everything on the sixth floor. At this point, I have the cell number of a foreman with whom I am communicating. The re-wiring changes nothing on the TV side, nor does it on the cable modem side, so I call the guy back. He gets the fiber truck to spend 24 hours checking things at the top of my block at the node. Still have problems, he says everything outside my house should be good to go and to get another tech to take readings. This happens, readings are now fine, he replaces the modem and bingo, internet connection issues are gone.

The point is that I went from enough of an issue with my "signal" they did some serious re-wiring plus whatever they did with the fiber connection and all before and after this, nothing much changed in my TV connection. So maybe these kinds of things have nothing to do with the transmission system, but originate at the head end...

How are these measurements being taken? Cable modem is mentioned several times, so is the issue with what's going on with it, or the TV side?...

It's easy to check the signals on the Motorola modem. There is a series of internal webpages located at http://192.168.100.1 Other modems also have internal webpages, but they may not be located at that exact address. The readings are updated by refreshing the page.

The SA8300HD signals are on the diagnostic menu under the Summary and RF Network headings. It looks like they auto-refresh every 2 seconds or so when they fluctuate.

I checked my settings this morning and they are all a lot more stable than they have been. There were also no glitches today, or in 2 two programs I recorded last night. I'll check again when they all go back to work on those new bulidings near me tomorrow.

-Mike

How are these measurements being taken? Cable modem is mentioned several times, so is the issue with what's going on with it, or the TV side?

For many years I have seen the issues of glitches on the TV side come and go. Sometimes I'll rarely see them, other times they can get very annoying. I have also (more than once) seen one broadcast be so "glitchy" that I switch away, only to find no glitches on a different channel. i.e. it's all over the lot.

Given these experiences, I'm just not so sure calling a tech out will accomplish all that much. Do I get him to sit there with measuring equipment hooked up for an hour of two waiting for something to happen?
With this complaint - signal level fluctuations - the tech will almost immediately start re-doing connections. He may hook up his test meter before doing that, but almost regardless of what he reads, the "fluctuating" part wll be enough to move him on to checking cables and connections on the premises. If ZMike's call to them is isolated to him, that will most likely remedy fix it. If ZMike's call is one of many, the cable provider will be more able to pinpoint the location of possible construction work disturbing (or worse) their network and fix it. But they need to called.

ZMike: My apologies for being terse, but I'm sticking to my point. There is no related subject that the members on this forum/thread can't help with. But this thread is already 158 pages long, and it is already quite common for questions to be asked that were answered previously - sometimes in the posts just above the question. For regulars, that is maddening as it unnecessarily lengthens the thread and causes even more confusion in members who drop in and find searching too daunting. It is important that anyone with fluctuating signal levels contact their provider's tech department so that they can begin to troubleshoot the problem, either in the residence or the network infrastructure in the neighborhood. So that this thread slows it's growth rate there needs to be a triage process applied to posting, or we will have a post that starts out "A car hit a utility pole outside my house and now I don't have any picture or sound. What could be wrong?" :)

DoubleDAZ - Discourse terminated. :)

It's easy to check the signals on the Motorola modem. There is a series of internal webpages located at http://192.168.100.1 Other modems also have internal webpages, but they may not be located at that exact address. The readings are updated by refreshing the page.
Mike,

If I get nothing else out of this discourse, I thank you for the info on the webpages. I recently replaced my old Toshiba cable modem (it would no longer recognize the cable signal) with a Motorola model from CC and had no idea these pages exisited. I admit I haven't read much of the User's Guide, it might be in there. :)

Mike,

If I get nothing else out of this discourse, I thank you for the info on the webpages. I recently replaced my old Toshiba cable modem (it would no longer recognize the cable signal) with a Motorola model from CC and had no idea these pages exisited. I admit I haven't read much of the User's Guide, it might be in there. :)

You're welcome!

Pepar, I do understand you and I do appreciate your advice. A TWC NYC service call may be somewhat different than you describe. I have had such calls and I wish they were as you describe. As far as the thread goes, I guess I have answered the question "Where's the SA8300HD diagnostic page?" a few times on the local NYC thread, located at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=297592&page=279&pp=30 That thread has 279 pages.

-Mike

You're welcome!

Pepar, I do understand you and I do appreciate your advice. A TWC NYC service call may be somewhat different than you describe. I have had such calls and I wish they were as you describe. As far as the thread goes, I guess I have answered the question "Where's the SA8300HD diagnostic page?" a few times on the local NYC thread, located at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=297592&page=279&pp=30 That thread has 279 pages.

-Mike
That is sad and I understand why one would want to avoid a service call. They are a necessary evil. :( Fortunately, all of my tech support encounters have been positive.

I checked my settings this morning and they are all a lot more stable than they have been. There were also no glitches today, or in 2 two programs I recorded last night. I'll check again when they all go back to work on those new bulidings near me tomorrow.
You might also try to correlate the fluctuations with the weather.

Edit: No, seriously, I'm not ribbing you. Temperature and humidity can affect the lines and connections.

I finally got TWC NY tech support on the phone regarding my HCDP compliance error when my SA8300HD Passport was used in HDMI. TWC informed me that they do not support the use of HDMI and that they cannot help me. I informed them that they should not provide a box with an HDMI output if they don't plan on supporting it. I guess I'm stuck with component. Oh well.

...Temperature and humidity can affect the lines and connections.

I was thinking the same thing and the temp will be in the 50's tonight for the first time in around 5 months. This could get interesting. At the moment everything is quite stable around here.
I am going to have them here. At the least I'll try to get them to run a separate line to the cable modem. I have 2 8300HD's and the modem all on the same line from the distribution box on my floor. I never liked that situation just on general principals.

-Mike

I was thinking the same thing and the temp will be in the 50's tonight for the first time in around 5 months. This could get interesting. At the moment everything is quite stable around here.
I am going to have them here. At the least I'll try to get them to run a separate line to the cable modem. I have 2 8300HD's and the modem all on the same line from the distribution box on my floor. I never liked that situation just on general principals.

-Mike
My original CATV house wiring scheme had homeruns from all wall plates to a panel in the garage. I had a broadband, two-way amp, a two-way splitter and two four-way splitters (for the eight TV locations throughout the house). When the cable modem was installed, they installed a TAP (not a splitter) on the incoming RG6, pulled the cm's run and attached it to the tap. The tap's output went to the amp/splitters. When I moved to the 8300HDs, they came back out and again isolated runs - to the STB's and tapped them off of the incoming line. The RG6 runs still attached to the amp/splitters are for analog TVs.

As you've sensed, each of your devices, ideally, should have their own homeruns.

This is certainly not what's at work now with your issue, but one winter was especially cold here and pole mounted cable runs - all copper at the time - pulled out of many a connector on the pole-mounted CATV amps, splitters, etc. The copper had contracted beyond the slack allowance of the lines between the devices.

I finally got TWC NY tech support on the phone regarding my HCDP compliance error when my SA8300HD Passport was used in HDMI. TWC informed me that they do not support the use of HDMI and that they cannot help me. I informed them that they should not provide a box with an HDMI output if they don't plan on supporting it. I guess I'm stuck with component. Oh well.
Have you looked to see if there's an HDMI thread? Many others have had problems with this pesky interface, but I don't remember anybody not being able to get it working at all - eventually.

The "we don't support HDMI" is a common refrain among cableco's. The bastids know there're issues beyond their control and have elected this as a way of completely shutting down those calls/callers. I've even read where a CSR referred a caller to AVS. As likely as that tip was to lead to solving the problem(!), that is a horrible policy.

I finally got TWC NY tech support on the phone regarding my HCDP compliance error when my SA8300HD Passport was used in HDMI. TWC informed me that they do not support the use of HDMI and that they cannot help me. I informed them that they should not provide a box with an HDMI output if they don't plan on supporting it. I guess I'm stuck with component. Oh well.
Further swapping may help. Have you tried any of the "parts" in another system? Try the cables in a system known to be working. Try a diferent cable box with your girlfriend's display; try your girlfriend's cable box with another display known to be working with HDMI. It may still be the cable box by itself, or a compatibility problem unique to the particular combination of STB and display. If you are able to pinpoint it as the box, support HDMI or not, they will swap for another box if you demand it.

I guess I see it from their side, pepar. How can any cableco be expected to deal with the myriad of devices out there that have HDMI inputs/outputs? Just the sheer number of different HDTVs is daunting in this day and age. How is a cableco supposed to deal with the firmware that is now a part of such devices and is provided by Samsung, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, et al?

I agree they could do something more that just say we don't support it, but these boxes are designed for future use and often have inputs/outputs that aren't supported today. The box ships with Component cables and that should tell you something. The SATA output isn't yet fully supported by Passport and most folks seem to understand that the cableco will not get in the middle of that fight. Why should it be any different for HDMI?

Back in the day when all this stuff was basically "hard-wired", support wasn't a problem, plug in the cable and if it didn't work, replace the cable, etc. However, so much of this now depends on "firmware" and the cableco's are simply stuck between a rock and a hard place, IMHO trying to support things they can't possibly keep up with or be expected to be experts on. Rather than continue bickering with the cableco, I think a call to the HDTV makers support center is in order.

I guess I see it from their side, pepar. How can any cableco be expected to deal with the myriad of devices out there that have HDMI inputs/outputs? Just the sheer number of different HDTVs is daunting in this day and age. How is a cableco supposed to deal with the firmware that is now a part of such devices and is provided by Samsung, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, et al?

I agree they could do something more that just say we don't support it, but these boxes are designed for future use and often have inputs/outputs that aren't supported today. The box ships with Component cables and that should tell you something. The SATA output isn't yet fully supported by Passport and most folks seem to understand that the cableco will not get in the middle of that fight. Why should it be any different for HDMI?
I think I see this one from both sides, or more correctly, from ALL sides as each player has a side. But it ships with "component cables only" by the cableco's choice. That is a safe, well-behind-the-curve interface that will (nearly) always work and generate close to zero tech support calls.

The cablecos are wrong in their handling of HDMI problems. They should step up and assist - over the phone - with the basic troubeshooting - reseating the connectors, different powering up order. You know what I mean as it's the first thing we do here to help. If you contact an AVR or HDMI switch manufacturer about an HDMI problem, they will respond and try to assist, not blow you off.

I'm not saying it's wthin the cablecos' power to "fix" HDMI, as it is clearly NOT. I fault their handling of the problem.

Dave makes a good point. The manufacturer can load new software in the display to fix the HDCP handshake. If they get enough complaint calls or returns they will make software available to field service personnel.

I guess I see it from their side, pepar. How can any cableco be expected to deal with the myriad of devices out there that have HDMI inputs/outputs?

Well... I dont let them off the hook that easy. When was the last time you read of a DVI or HDMI DVD player have an issue with a display that didnt get fixed. Yet the Cable Boxes constantly have issues. Its just not that hard. If the cableco's advocated for their customers, these issues would be fixed. There is even a dedicated firmware update pipe in place. How quickly did Samsung and Toshiba issue firmware fixes for their HDDVD and BluRay players for HDMI issues.

Dave makes a good point. The manufacturer can load new software in the display to fix the HDCP handshake. If they get enough complaint calls or returns they will make software available to field service personnel.
Dave always makes a good point, but isn't this assuming that it is entirely the display that's at fault.

Dave always makes a good point, but isn't this assuming that it is entirely the display that's at fault.


If I own a SONY LCD and it has an HDCP handshake problem over hdmi but the rest of SONY's display products like the projectors and SXRD's do not have a problem with the same source then I am looking at SONY for a solution not APTIV.

If I own a SONY LCD and it has an HDCP handshake problem over hdmi but the rest of SONY's display products like the projectors and SXRD's do not have a problem with the same source then I am looking at SONY for a solution not APTIV.
Well, sure, that could be true if you had tried "the rest of SONY's display products" on your system and found that they all worked. :)

If APTIV makes a big change in the way they initiate the handshake they risk breaking other displays that are currently working fine. If SONY issues a handshake change in the field they only risk having a display that continues to not work correctly over hdmi.

If APTIV makes a big change in the way they initiate the handshake they risk breaking other displays that are currently working fine. If SONY issues a handshake change in the field they only risk having a display that continues to not work correctly over hdmi.
Well, it would probably be SA and not Aptiv. But why would they make a big change unless it to be (more) compliant, or to upgrade to a newer version of HDMI?

Exactly. What part of the standard do you change to be more compliant? I am sure they don't want to break what they already have working. I think the newer versions of hdmi require a hardware change.

I can't disagree pepar. In fact, I don't think I did. :) I did say I didn't agree with the cableco's response, they should have run through the gamit and then referred the sub to the TV maker, just like you mentioned.

I'm not sure I'm ready to make a statement that says they ship 8300's with Component cables because that's what the cableco's want. I suspect if the cableco's even have a say, it's because, like you said, Component offers virtually troublefree setup, it's in both the cableco's and SA's interest to ship with Component. Also, since HDMI was not supported initially in Passport, and perhaps even in early versions of SARA, and many HDTVs in-use don't have HDMI connections, why ship an HDMI cable in the first place? I don't think DVI even worked at first on the 8000, did it?

As for DVD players, etc., I think it's apples and oranges. I could be wrong, but I don't think DVD players go through the same HDCP handshake that cable boxes do, do they? Most, if not all, problems with cable/HDMI are related to the HDCP handshake, not the cable box. Calling the maker of the offending product usually gets results. We can fault the cableco for their lack of customer support, but was the TV maker even called to see if there is a firmware update that will resolve the issue? If you have an issue with a DVD player, you contact the maker? If they can't help, do you then try the TV maker? Of course, you do.

Oftentimes the changes folks make are to be more compliant, that is true. However, sometimes that breaks things that aren't as compliant. Who do you blame? Should SA keep old, incorrect code to be backward compatible? I don't think so. If the code is wrong, it should be corrected. If that breaks someone else, then they need to fix their code too. The problem is that a lot of folks don't even know that there is code in their HDTV's, etc. If something breaks, they immediately call the cableco. Why? Because that's what they've always done. They've never had to think about code in the TV set being wrong or needing an update. And, TV makers don't go out of their way to advertise that either. When is the last time you got an email from your TV maker letting you know there was an undate? You did register your TV, didn't you? :)

Exactly. What part of the standard do you change to be more compliant? I am sure they don't want to break what they already have working. I think the newer versions of hdmi require a hardware change.
I've heard that as well. And that means a lot gear out there is going to be obsolete.

This thread is so long, and a search pulls up so much stuff. Anyone care to share how to do a hard reboot? I turned it off, let it sit for about 10 secs. Then while, holding power, i plugged it back in, and held power for another 20 secs. It did say boot, but nothing seems different.

I forgot the pin to my Parental settings, and can not figure out what to do. SA8300HD DVR. TWC in dayton OH

This thread is so long, and a search pulls up so much stuff. Anyone care to share how to do a hard reboot? I turned it off, let it sit for about 10 secs. Then while, holding power, i plugged it back in, and held power for another 20 secs. It did say boot, but nothing seems different.

I forgot the pin to my Parental settings, and can not figure out what to do. SA8300HD DVR. TWC in dayton OH

What you did was a hard reboot.

You did it right, but it often doesn't do anything different, it all depends on what is wrong to begin with. I believe though that you need to actually call the cableco to have your Parental PIN reset, there is nothing you can do from your end.

You did it right, but it often doesn't do anything different, it all depends on what is wrong to begin with. I believe though that you need to actually call the cableco to have your Parental PIN reset, there is nothing you can do from your end.
Ummm, yeah, what's the point of a parental PIN if it can be hacked with a power cord yank? ;)

Okay--in regards "hard reboot"; what is the difference between holding the power button down while plugging the unit in and not holding the button down? What does it do if the power button is held down that it doesn't otherwise?

First, thanks zMike for the modem IP... I have an RCA unit and it sure works there. Watching for a bit (from the slight "page flash" it looks like it updates every second or so) everything seems to look OK; wish I knew what all those "bad" events actually mean. Practically, I don't see any issues.

I have no specific knowledge, but I believe most of the HDMI handshake issues to the "forced" DRM. In a general sense, I'm not so sure the guys writing this stuff have a real chance... it's consistently true that whatever the guys writing it do, it gets broken. Which leads to re-writing, so on and so frith, kinda like a spiral. My guess is there is a ton of pressure involved that we just don't experience... I sure a sh*t know that "corporate pressure" on programmers always leads to mistakes. I too have seen unspecified issues with the HDMI handshake, the best I can offer is keep banging it, that's worked for me. Once you get it working, don't mess with it.

As fort responsibility, that's a tough one. Its very clear to me that the "we don't support" plus the inclusion of component cables is quite clear... it works and essentially does give us what we contract for. End of story. Ah, but one more thing... the STBs are leased from SA, my guess would be that there's no contractual obligation on SAs part to support the hardware. Then again, I had thought that the nature of the contract between them was that TWC can ask for hardware tweaks... could they get SA to completely disable the HDMI connection? Then again, we have various regulatory bodies that can and do insert themselves into the chain, perhaps TWC can have certain hardware tweaks, but maybe not for HDMI connectors.

Anyway, the best way to describe what I said is a jumble. Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make... nothing is clean, clear cut, and specific. I could probably toss in another few "then agains."

As for that CSR sending a customer here, honestly I'd call that a CSR that is absolutely doing their job... which is to help the customer. That person was undoubtedly one of the sharper pencils in the box, they KNEW there is only so much the company they work for can/could/would do, so they gave the customer what they could, an intro to a world that the customer MAY find help, or at least sympathy and support for their issues. I'd give that CSR a gold star!

Now for a nugget having absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, specs have been announced, orders are being taken for a $17,000 HD video camera. No big deal, right? Let's see, resolution of 4520 x 2540 at 60 fps...

First, thanks zMike for the modem IP... I have an RCA unit and it sure works there. Watching for a bit (from the slight "page flash" it looks like it updates every second or so) everything seems to look OK; wish I knew what all those "bad" events actually mean. Practically, I don't see any issues.
I know what you mean. I have a log full of errors, some with dates in the '70's. I can't believe that, but it just adds to the mystery. Operation is pretty much flawless all the time. Why did I click on that link? :)

Ummm, yeah, what's the point of a parental PIN if it can be hacked with a power cord yank? ;)

thanks for the help everyone. I'm kinda relieved that it doesn't work that way. I have a friend who has an older son, who is over almost every other day, and he would easily be able to figure out a hard reboot, and so fourth.

This thread is so long, and a search pulls up so much stuff. Anyone care to share how to do a hard reboot? I turned it off, let it sit for about 10 secs. Then while, holding power, i plugged it back in, and held power for another 20 secs. It did say boot, but nothing seems different.

I forgot the pin to my Parental settings, and can not figure out what to do. SA8300HD DVR. TWC in dayton OH


Just press and hold the power button until it says BOOT on the LED display. It will take a few minutes to reboot after that.

First, thanks zMike for the modem IP... I have an RCA unit and it sure works there. Watching for a bit (from the slight "page flash" it looks like it updates every second or so) everything seems to look OK; wish I knew what all those "bad" events actually mean. Practically, I don't see any issues.
...

My connection froze and had to be restarted once today but my signal numbers still seem stable. I'm having them here on the first available date--9/26. How's that for fast service?
Regarding the errorlog, written in authentic gibberish, how's this for a message

"US: WatchDog: BD 0 stuck for 20 Sec (TxTime=1246E88 Info:0001)"

That's the latest one on mine. Some of them are kinda funny.

-Mike

My connection froze and had to be restarted once today but my signal numbers still seem stable. I'm having them here on the first available date--9/26.
I had two "freeze" incidents, both involving tuning to subscribed channels and getting the freeze. One time, a hard reboot fixed it. The other time, the cableco needed to "hit" it from the head-end. On two other occasions, certain channels were noisy or blacked out. Both times the fix was the tech re-doing connections, including some on the back of the wallplate, and making me a few new cables to run from wallplate to STB.