Originally posted by RockStrongo
Due to the bad MB on my display, I am selling my panny on ebay.

If anyone is interested, it is item 5744544663 or you can pm me for a direct link.

Its still a great player and I almost kept it despite the mb. But, the momitsu is performing well for me and I need the money. ;)

Selling for "personal reasons". I like that.

Originally posted by mallu2u
I like the idea Paul. I shall find out the shop nearest to me and make the call tomorrow. Shall also call Panny support tomorrow. Will provide an update.


Oh man this is rich, I said that we should all do this a month ago and mentioned it again just now and then Paul chimed in and all of a sudden it's a good idea. Boy, you guys really know how to hurt a guy...:p


Originally posted by Paul
I don't have MB very bad either, but if it is to be fixed, without charge, "a few weeks" puts it outside of my labor warranty. So in it goes.

This is a good idea to "register" your problem before your warranty expires because then they're forced to pay until it's fixed (the same problem that is). That's why I say just let them know that there's a MB issue. Make sure you tell them there's a MB issue. That way it's covered by the warranty forever! You can then sit back and relax until they find a solution to the problem. I say we all need to make this MB problem, Panasonic's problem. Let them do all the work. I don't care if I have to take it back 20 times! That 20 times is going to cost them an arm and a leg (thousands more than the cost of the player). Now, multiply that by the number of us who will do this over and over again....you get the picture of how much this is going to hurt Panasonic? In the end, I believe for those of us who are smart enough to register this MB problem before the warranty expires, we will have our machines swapped out for the next model if a soultion can't be found. It's like getting an upgrade plan for free!

:cool:

Originally posted by bojangling
Selling for "personal reasons". I like that.

Yeah, I would rather just keep it and leave it connected to my component input, but I am getting married in May and need the cashola. ;)

Originally posted by littlesaint
Same problem here. What display do you have? I have a JVC HD-ILA RPTV which seems to have serious low IRE color temp problems. I'm having JVC look at it, but the problem is more pronounced with this DVD player.

I have the Toshiba 52HM94. I was hoping it wasn't the TV. Some say this kind of problem is the TV's fault while other's blame the DVD player. Hmmm

Man, with how hard you guys are pounding the macroblocking issue I'm more and more tempted to keep my Denon 2910 and not even open my S97 when it arrives!

Seriouslly, is the MB *that* bad on this device? I haven't seen it yet for myself, though I can attest to seeing MB even on my 2910, though I attribute it to very poorly encoded DVDs and almost feel that it's compression artifacts.

Kevin

Kevin,

It varys from display to display. I would say it is no worse or better than the Denon 2910/1910. I don't see it that much but, basically, if I'm going to try to do anything about it, the time is now.

Paul

Well, anyone out there have the S97 connected to a Sammy HL-P5674W? Care to comment on your experience?

I'm using it with a Samsung HL-P5685W and do not see any MB over HDMI. The PQ is much improved at 1080i compared to my last Philips player.

I would suggest that all 97S owners report the Macroblocking problem to
Panasonic. Be sure to get a case number. This will cover you if they upgrade the firmware or cannot fix the problem on the unit.

Originally posted by kevinha
Well, anyone out there have the S97 connected to a Sammy HL-P5674W? Care to comment on your experience?

I had it connected to an HLP4674W (pretty much the same thing) and the macroblocking was unbelievably bad on the HDMI. The picture was much better over component, but still not stellar. Its in the box and going back... To put it this way, a friend came over to see it over HDMI and said it looked "worse than VHS". Attack of the Clones was perhaps the worst offender on my machine but nothing really looked good. Got a cheaper player hooked up now (Sony 775) and it looks great...less features...but almost 1/3 the price. I figure this will do great until HD-DVD or Blu-ray. I wish that there was a solution...I liked the features of the player.

By the way...my player really generated the heat...is that common?

As Paul and others have reported the Macroblocking varies greatly with
different displays. I have very littlie Macroblocking with the Panasonic AE700 but I can see that others have very big problems with it making the
unit unwatchable. The best thing to do is to complain to Panasonic.
They should fix it or exchange the unit. Keep a record of your case number when you call.

Originally posted by rwestley
Tohoho, could you give us some more information about the firmware upgrade procedure and what it did on your machine. What number firmware do you now have?

I lost the procedure to see firmware version. Tell me the procedure.

In Jpapan, firmware upgrade procedure is just simple. Call service person and explain your MB phenomenon. Then service person will bring back your S97. In my case, my S97 was gone to factory service center, and took about 2 weeks to return with firmware updated.

tohoho,

To see the firmware version, it's this.
On unit, press and hold PAUSE and OPEN, press 7 on remote.

Last 3 digits is the firmware version. Currently our unit has 528, and hopefully you have a higher version. If you also have a digital picture shot of it, that'll be more better for us.

Sango

How do you "Register" the problem with Panasonic?

You say Attack of the Clones demonstrated MB pretty bad. What are some others that people are seeing? I'd like to have some of those films on hand to compare in both the S97 and the 2910.

Also, has anyone given any credence to MB being compression-artificat related, or have those of you who have MB problems have them "disappear" on the same movie but a different player?

I've had it happen on higher quality dvd's (LOTR: FOTR) and not have it happen so much on lower quality dvd's. It always seems much more apparent in dark scenes that have a lot of colour.

I had some pretty bad issues of it during the Empire Strikes Back in the space-based scenes. I can definitely see where adding black crush might help. I have it hooked up over HDMI to an Hitachi 57" CRT RPTV.

I thought this player is capable of upgrading firmware via a flash file. Why does it take to weeks to return to a service center?

Most likely they had a line or something or maybe they were still making the update, which is still questionable.

Originally posted by Sango
tohoho,

To see the firmware version, it's this.
On unit, press and hold PAUSE and OPEN, press 7 on remote.

Last 3 digits is the firmware version. Currently our unit has 528, and hopefully you have a higher version. If you also have a digital picture shot of it, that'll be more better for us.

Sango

My updated firmware version is 536. Sorry, I don't have no way to capture screen shoot.

Thanks. I'll find out what to do from this point.

Thanks Tohoho for posting the new firmware information. When I called Panasonic yesterday in the US they had no information about a firmware update. They took my information and created a case number. I would suggest that all 97S owners do the same. This should protect you. The phone number to call is 1800-211-7262. Listen carefully since there are many menu options before you reach the support person.

Be very specific when you call and detail the problem. They may not understand what macroblocking is. Explain what you are seeing and ask when and how it will be fixed. The first person with whom I spoke put me on
to someone else because they did not understand what the problem was.
The second person was much better and told me he would send the information to the people who can deal with it. The more who report the
problem the fast we should hear something.

I hope that firmware version 536 has at least somewhat fixed the macroblocking problem. I wonder if there will be a different version for the US? I would also like to thank Sango for all of his efforts in getting information on new firmwares.

Thanks Sango.

The USA "old" is 528.

The new is 536.

That difference would suggest several revisions?

Paul

How is everyone describing the macroblocking problem. I would think it would get their attenting if everyone is describing it the same way.

John

That is very good news, thanks Sango and Tohoho. It will be interesting to see if Panasonic has acomplished what no other manufacturer has up to this point ie: MB fix through firmware.

Sango, as Paul suggests it would appear there has been a few revisions of the firmware since 528 was released, is it possible to find info on not just the latest release but the others before it as well? It'd be nice to know if it's not MB what exactly they are attempting to fix with these revisions.

Thanks.

As Tohoho states on page 118 in his post the MB problem is greatly improved but still can be seen on some disks. I don't know if it can be
completly fixed but at least it can be improved with firmware. As Paul suggests it seems there have been several revisions so Panasonic is aware and seems to be working on the problem.

I am experiencing something that I think is macroblocking with this player and the samsung hlp6163w. This is particularly noticeable in the clouds that come when the menu part is loading, and in the clouds at the begging of the actual film, where the warner bros and "harry potter" logo come. Also, in the second film, when the house elf comes into harry's room, you can see it on the walls and on harry's shirt. can anyone confirm this?

oddly, i get the same problem with a cheapo, 5 yr old sony player on s video. it is less noticeable however, but i suspect that the lower quality of s video just smooths out the problem. even more strangely cable tv/hd broadcasts look perfect on this tv, so I'm not sure whether its the disk, dvd player, or tv.
I have already had a samsung tech over, tried 2 new light engines and a new digital pcb, but no change.

also, for the new firmware, will it be something easily available that we can download, burn to a cd, and install ourselves, or will we need to contact panasonic and have one of their people do it?

Since I contacted Panasonic by email, I'll have to wait and hear from them on Monday and see what they say.

I purchased the S97 a few days ago for use with my brand new PT50DL54 connected via HDMI. I am extremely pleased with the PQ - I noticed a little macroblocking in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, but I think it's only a small trade-off versus the excellent output from this player. (Unless you already have a good 480i player, and your set has a good scaler built-in.)

Anyway, one of the first things I tried to do was fire up some of my DVD-R backups, and much to my surprise the Panny wouldn't play any of them. The message I received was something like "Unable to play this type of disc". I know the unit is supposed to play DVD-R media, I'm wondering if it is perhaps the brand of media (Ritek), or the way in which it was burned (Ripped using DVD Decrypter, Re-encoded using DVD2One, Burned using Nero) that could be causing this.

Has anyone experienced any trouble with DVD-R discs? I'm going to try the player with another brand of media to see if that solves the problem.

I'll also take this chance to thank Paul, and everybody who's contributed this thread for making it such an excellent resource. I read the entire thread over the course of a week before deciding on this player - I'm very happy that I did, as it's an enormous improvement over my $35.00 "Wal-Mart Special". :)

Edit: Just a thought - but it wouldn't have anything to do with any copyright/HDCP stuff, would it?

dakewldude:

You most likely need to burn the disc in the format which the unit likes or else the unit will not be able to play the disc reguardless. I know the previous Panasonic units are like that and most likely you are experiencing this on the S97 as well.

Sango

dakewldude,

You're very welcome!

Don't know about the DVD-R. By any chance do you have a DVD-R that was used to simply record something off TV or cable rather than the other methods?

I've used TDK DVD-RW recorded on a Sony RDR-GX7 and the 'S97 plays them just fine.

Paul

If someone called Panny reg MB issue, can u share the phone #, etc? We should all call them and make sure the issue is noticed.

Originally posted by jcc
Oh man this is rich, I said that we should all do this a month ago and mentioned it again just now and then Paul chimed in and all of a sudden it's a good idea. Boy, you guys really know how to hurt a guy...:p




This is a good idea to "register" your problem before your warranty expires because then they're forced to pay until it's fixed (the same problem that is). That's why I say just let them know that there's a MB issue. Make sure you tell them there's a MB issue. That way it's covered by the warranty forever! You can then sit back and relax until they find a solution to the problem. I say we all need to make this MB problem, Panasonic's problem. Let them do all the work. I don't care if I have to take it back 20 times! That 20 times is going to cost them an arm and a leg (thousands more than the cost of the player). Now, multiply that by the number of us who will do this over and over again....you get the picture of how much this is going to hurt Panasonic? In the end, I believe for those of us who are smart enough to register this MB problem before the warranty expires, we will have our machines swapped out for the next model if a soultion can't be found. It's like getting an upgrade plan for free!

:cool:

dude. I had no idea that u said this a while back. Must have missed it since I have not been very regular lately. Did you call them? If yes, what did they say? What is the # u called?

I guess I like to know how to register that too.

I put this information in a previous post but I will post it again below.

The phone number to call is 1-800-211-7262. Listen carefully since there are many menu options before you reach the support person.

Be very specific when you call and detail the problem. They may not understand what macroblocking is. Explain what you are seeing and ask when and how it will be fixed. The first person with whom I spoke put me on to someone else because they did not understand what the problem was.

I would also ask them about new firmware.

Be sure to get a case number!!!!!

I already have case numbers with them. Just gotta try and get through to them.

Just got off the phone w/ Panasonic (waited about 20 mins - not terrible). The number rwestley posted is the troubleshooting number. The customer care number (for those who care) is 800.973.4326.

I explained my problem (what I was seeing), mentioned that it is a widespread problem and is called macroblocking. Asked if there was any fix, especially a firmware upgrade. The CSR I spoke to didn't really know anything about the problem but took my info and set up a case number.

So I didn't really learn anything but at least they have a record of me calling in within 90 days of my purchase. I'm assuming that once a firmware update is released we will hear about it here way before panasonic calls me.

Originally posted by Sango
Since I contacted Panasonic by email, I'll have to wait and hear from them on Monday and see what they say.

I tried to contact Panasonic by email several weeks ago and I am still waiting for a response. My S97 is back in the box to be returned I'm sad to say. I hope they do respond to the Macroblocking...I liked many of the features of this player. But the HDMI image quality on my DLP4674W was astoundingly poor despite adjustments with DVE. I went back and bought a cheaper DVD player Sony 775) to get my by via component until HD or Blu-ray days. I cannot decribe in words how much better it looks on my TV.

I hope Panasonic gets it right...this could have been THE player for me. On paper it WAS the player for me.

Alright, I am missing something here. What exactly is the point in getting a case number within 90 days? I understand this is the end of the limited warranty, and that hopefully with enough complaints, Panasonic will respond with a firmware fix. Is there something I am missing?

The number I got 1-800-211-7262 was taken from the back of the owners manual. You can call Monday to Friday 9am to 8PM EST. It is true that I had to go through many prompts but they did put me on to smeone who said that he would immediately let the people who deal
with these problem know. The first person with whom I spoke did not have a clue. The reason to get a case number is to go on record with your complaint.
They will not be able to tell you that the warranty has expired if they fix the
problem or replace the unit.

I've had no problems with DVD-R ,+R , and dl+R discs Burned using DVD Decrypter, i've heard of problems using Nero

[i], one of the first things I tried to do was fire up some of my DVD-R backups, and much to my surprise the Panny wouldn't play any of them. The message I received was something like "Unable to play this type of disc". I know the unit is supposed to play DVD-R media, I'm wondering if it is perhaps the brand of media (Ritek), or the way in which it was burned (Ripped using DVD Decrypter, Re-encoded using DVD2One, Burned using Nero) that could be causing this.

Has anyone experienced any trouble with DVD-R discs? I'm going to try the player with another brand of media to see if that solves the problem.


Edit: Just a thought - but it wouldn't have anything to do with any copyright/HDCP stuff, would it? [/B]

Originally posted by rwestley
The number I got 1-800-211-7262 was taken from the back of the owners manual. You can call Monday to Friday 9am to 8PM EST.

The reason to get a case number is to go on record with your complaint.
They will not be able to tell you that the warranty has expired if they fix the
problem or replace the unit.

I called that number today and got through fine - so I think you can call any day.

Agreed that it's best to have a record that you called prior to your 90 days so they can't give you hard time later. Plus the more people who complain about the same problem, the more likely they do something about it.

I just bought a Panasonic S97 and hooked it up via HDMI to my Mitsu 52725 HDTV (Until I get the rest of the A/V system in order I am just using the TV sound for now). On a number of DVDs, including DVE and an Eric Clapton concert DVD, I am getting a large amount of popping/crackling sounds. This happens here and there during playback but also very often when hitting the menu button to change from playback mode to the DVD menu screen. Other DVDs are just fine. If I turn the audio stream off from the HDMI output the popping (and all the sound, of course) goes away. I have not yet tried the HDMI video out with analog audio out (have not yet figured out how to do this - just using the 2 channel audio out to the DVI inputs on my Mitsu didn't work). If that works this would be OK in the short term but eventually I'll have an HDMI audio reciever and would want to make sure I have the HDMI audio fully functional.

The HDMI cable itself is only about 6' long and is the one sent with the player. I have not swapped out the cable yet.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Is it just a bad DVD player? Has anyone heard anything specific about the S97 (or the Mitsu for that matter) that might of use here? I have sent an email to Panasonic service and am awaiting a reply.

Thanks in advance for any help.

List all your case numbers here I guess so we can accumulate our records.

Gee Weez I just ordered mine last week from Abt electronics for $275
I hope I dont see any MB trouble on my brand new PT53X54J

I will post the firmware thats on the player when I get it on this forum:)

MS97's MB issue was fairly improved by updating the firmware. But it should be noted that, detail of dark scene seemed to be degraded. There seems to be the trade-off between these.

I can see MB on S97 w/ PT47WXD63.
Good Luck.

Originally posted by dstalte
Gee Weez I just ordered mine last week from Abt electronics for $275
I hope I dont see any MB trouble on my brand new PT53X54J

I will post the firmware thats on the player when I get it on this forum:)

Originally posted by tohoho
MS97's MB issue was fairly improved by updating the firmware. But it should be noted that, detail of dark scene seemed to be degraded. There seems to be the trade-off between these.

Will have to see for ourselves. Do you mind telling us your HT setup?

Originally posted by tohoho
MS97's MB issue was fairly improved by updating the firmware. But it should be noted that, detail of dark scene seemed to be degraded. There seems to be the trade-off between these.

Anime seems to be one type of content in which macroblocking is extremely noticable when played on the S97. Could you comment on whether you might have tried playing any Japanese anime and how it looks with the new firmware?
Much appreciated.

Originally posted by Sango
Will have to see for ourselves. Do you mind telling us your HT setup?

I can't understand the meaning of 'HT'. But I'm using SANYO LP-Z3 projector connected to S97 by HDMI cable and 720p, YCbCr4:4:4 mode.

Originally posted by chairmantao
Anime seems to be one type of content in which macroblocking is extremely noticable when played on the S97. Could you comment on whether you might have tried playing any Japanese anime and how it looks with the new firmware?
Much appreciated.

I have only one anime DVD, so I can't tell you the anime quality difference between former and new firmware. Instead, I saw many MB phenomenon in dark jacket scene on many DVD by former firmware, but by new one, MB is gone and seems detail of jacket also gone.

HT is home theater in short.

Since I have lots of anime I can test various ones. My setup in this case is an Hitachi 57TWX20B using the S97 and RP82 via component.

It is interesting that according to Tohoho the new Japanese firmware may cause other problems. We will have to wait and see. It seems that there have been several firmware revisions that Panasonic is working on. This could be the reason why they have not released anything in the US yet. I wonder if it will be possible to reverse the procedure if the new firmware causes new problems?

Does the Faroujda processor that's is in this unit exhibit the MB problem in ALL the players it's used in?? By that I mean different manufacturers.

From what I have read the Faroujda processor does exhibit MB problems in all
players from different manufactures. Through firmware Denon has been able to
reduce the problem. I am hoping that Panasonic working with Faroujda will be
able to reduce the problem with new firmware in the 97S. We should know soon.

I'm considering buying the Panny 97S to replace my Bravo D1 which just died. However, I'm a little confused on the whole DVI, HDMI, HDTV thing. I searched this thread and didn't really find an answer.

I'll be connecting it to my Hitachi 46F500, which has a "DVI-HDTV" input. Will this work with the HDMI cable provided with the 97S? If not, will it work with the DVI-D to DVI-D cable that I was using with my Bravo D1?

Thanks.

Sango, Paul - I shouldn't have expected any less from you guys; you were absolutely right. I re-burned one of the discs using DVD Decrypter instead of Nero, and it worked just fine in the S97.

After some further research, I'm given to understand that earlier versions of Nero had problems burning DVD Video discs. I'm a little disappointed that I've got to re-burn all of my backups to work with the Panasonic, however I'm glad that there is a solution to the problem. I'm extremely happy with the player, but not being able to play my DVD-R backups would have been a deal breaker.

Thanks very much for your help!

On a side note, the only thing still nagging in the back of my mind regarding this player is the release of the S77 some time in April, supposedly with the same features at a significantly lower MSRP.

You can get HDMI to DVI adaptors. I don't know if the 97S will do a handshake with your Hitachi. It depends if the Hitachi is HDCP compliant.

It must do this if you want to use the upscaling features.

Originally posted by MadDogMike
I'm considering buying the Panny 97S to replace my Bravo D1 which just died. However, I'm a little confused on the whole DVI, HDMI, HDTV thing. I searched this thread and didn't really find an answer.

I'll be connecting it to my Hitachi 46F500, which has a "DVI-HDTV" input. Will this work with the HDMI cable provided with the 97S? If not, will it work with the DVI-D to DVI-D cable that I was using with my Bravo D1?

Thanks.

HDMI is a newer digital connectivity standard that is electrically compatible with DVI, but adds some new features to the standard (audio over the same cable, and a form of copy protection).

Though it's electrically compatible with DVI, it's not physically compatible. As such, you will require an adapter or an HDMI-to-DVI-D cable in order to connect this player to your TV. (Most people here would reccommend that you use the cable, as adapters have been known to introduce ghosting in some cases.)

Edit: As stated above by rwestley, you'll also have to ensure that you don't have any HDCP-related issues.

I have had no problem with all my burned disks. I am using DVD shink (A
great free program) and the new version of Nero. The 97S plays all my
DVD+ or- disks. The problem often is the quality of the blanks you use.
I would also suggest burning at a slower speed. This will prevent problems.

I am using a DVI to HDMI adaptor with no problems with my Panasonic
AE700 and S97S. The HDCP handshake is a different issue.

Please keep the thread on topic. Last few posts removed.

Thank you.

Originally posted by dakewldude
Though it's electrically compatible with DVI, it's not physically compatible. As such, you will require an adapter or an HDMI-to-DVI-D cable in order to connect this player to your TV. (Most people here would reccommend that you use the cable, as adapters have been known to introduce ghosting in some cases.)

Edit: As stated above by rwestley, you'll also have to ensure that you don't have any HDCP-related issues.

So something like these would do?: http://www.buyextras.com/3fehdtodvca.html
http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64632&item=5745052721&rd=1

Originally posted by rwestley
I am using a DVI to HDMI adaptor with no problems with my Panasonic
AE700 and S97S. The HDCP handshake is a different issue.

OK, I guess I don't understand the handshake issue.

Regarding the "DVI-HDTV" input on my Hitachi, the manual says; "Use this DVI-HDTV input for your external devices with DVI-HDTV output such as a set-top-box, high band DTV decoders, DVD players and D-VHS with Digital Content Protection. When connecting a set-top box with copy-protect digital out terminal, a high definition picture can be displayed on the screen in its digital form." Would one interpret that as it should work with HDMI / HDCP? Or is there no way of knowing other than just trying it?

The (HDCP) handshake issue has to do with Digital Content Protection. There have been many DCP problems reported using different eqipment. They only way to find out is to try the units together or to ask someone who has the same combination.

Just on the off chance that Panasonic read these threads, I'd like them to know that I bought and returned the S97 (macroblocking of course) but would absolutely love to re-buy it again, since I thought it was an excellent player. Come on Panasonic. Fix it via firmware and I'd buy a new player today!

Not sure what the problem was but I don't want this thread closed.

Please, no chat on copying of copyrighted software -- that's the policy of AVS Forum. We've established the compatibility of various DVD formats in the first post of the thead. If there's a question look there.

Thanks!

Paul

Did anyone get any more news about the firmware updates?

I just got off the phone with Panasonic and the people that answer the phone really don't know much. I'm supposed to get a call back within 48 hours. Has anyone that has called gotten the callback or email answer??

Well, it appears we'll need someone who's been able to do a before/after comparison with the new firmware to help develop a decision tree. I've seen some macroblocking with the S97 thru an HDMI-DVI Bettercable into a Sony 50XBR800, but not consistently. I'm within 90 days of purchase, so will log a case with Panasonic, but hope we can develop some quick insights into the puts and takes of the new firmware before taking that step. It doesn't appear it'll be easy to download/install, and if it's a net negative with my system, don't want to do it. If/when we get the new firmware, it's not yet clear there'll be a means to go back to 528. Any thoughts from the team?

I'm starting to think this player isn't worth all the trouble!! Is it?? Does anyone know what Genesis says about this regarding their chip??

The panasonic people I spoke to said they are working closely with Faroudja on the problem but not yet ready to release the firmware. It appears macroblocking is a broader problem that rests more with the Genesis chip . I see little of it on my LG plasma display but it does appear on certain DVDs regardles of the player.

I actually called Genesis a few months back regarding the problem. The person I spoke to at first acted like he didn't know what macroblocking was. After I pressed a little more he launched into a big tirade about how it couldn't be fixed and just had to be "dealt with" by the consumer. I think they are very aware of the problem, but it is obvious they goofed somewhat on producing the chip and they know it. Needless to say I returned my S97 the next day.

I wonder if Genesis is merely washing their hands of the problem and letting the player manufacturers try and deal with the problem. I know Denon has been able to limit the problem somewhat with various firmware updates. Perhaps Panasonic is doing the same thing?

While I no longer own this player, I hope the best for those that do. I would have kept it in my system had it not been for the macroblocking disaster on my ISF calibrated Mits CRT.

There must be an incompatibility issue between the chips in the player and some displays . Both the S97 and my LG mu-pz5044v have the fl2310 which may explain why I rarely see macroblocking. I think this is a fabulous player... best one I've had and a keeper. It would be interesting to know how many people experiencing this problem have different chips in their displays.

Originally posted by BdoUK
I would have kept it in my system had it not been for the macroblocking disaster on my ISF calibrated Mits CRT.

Same here. I loved everything about it except that one major flaw.

I have the momitsu V880DX now. The only flaw that I have with it, is the remote is not as responsive past about 6 feet or so. Which is minor compared to the macroblocking issue on the panny.

Even if they fix it though, I think I am hooked on my momitsu's ability to convert PAL to NTSC and play other region disks.

UPS shows that my S97's as supposed to arrive today.

I've spent the better part of two weeks tweaking my Denon 2910 with my Sammy 5674 and would prefer to not spend that much time with the S97 (much of that was just learning curve as to what this whole calibration thing means!)

Any suggestions to lower the learning curve with the S97 so I can get a side-by-side comparison up as fast as possible?

I wonder of the new S77 will have a different chip. I looked on the Genesis and they do not show any new chip at this time. It might be possible for
Genesis to keep fix the problem in the next batch of chips they produce.

It will be interesting to see what Panasonic does for us.

Possibly true!
rwestlely, were you at the CES thou? Hmm I guess someone should of taken a screw-driver and pop the case open to see what it is.

Maybe a FLI2300 ZZ or a FLI2400 =)

Firmware is 528 I get l087 then 8F528 when I hold the pause,open and 7 on remote. Still getting it set up and I will report back

I really wish I could have opened the unit at the CES show. I did ask about the processor and was told that it is the same as the 97S. I spoke to about four different people and I could not get much information about the 77S. There were too many people around and I don't carry a screw-driver. Maybe next time.

My S97 just arrived and I pulled out the 2910 to hook it up.

First stop was to calibrate with DVE and lo and behold at the very opening of the Swelltone jet, it is macroblocked quite extensively on the body of the jet just underneath the pilot.

I plugged the 2910 back in to play the same scene. On the 2910 it is very slightly noticeable.

I'm going to spend some time further calibrating and reviewing Paul's first post in this thread after dinner.

Anyone have some quick suggestions, other than fully calibrate, or might this just be the way it is on my display?

I sent u a pm kevinha! may i requiest a reply if feasible?thnx

kevinha,

Hopefully, a recalibration will help matters. The problem is display and even matrerial dependent. I have some discs where I never see macroblock enhance.

Also, try setting the S97's user "CONTRAST" to -1.

Paul

Also try the default setting because that also works for me depending on your setup.

Well, I spent some time doing some calibration and the Swelltone jet from DVE is definitely much improved.

My first reaction upon seeing that was, "Oh my! I didn't think it would ever be that bad or noticeable!"

I'm going to spend some more time right now going over your first post, Paul, as well as tweaking with the contrast at -1. I know I already did something with contrast in order to get DVE's grey ramp to fully display.

I'll let you know what I find. I so badly want this to work ... far less expensive than the 2910 and *much* more responsive from a UI point of view.

A quick Q on TV type ... I've got a Samsung DLP TV. Can I safely assume that "projection" is the proper selection?

kevinha,

I've neglected to put this info on the first post of the thread. We went through those settings early on and, at first, it seemed to do nothing until......

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4720527#post4720527

And Hugh2 figured it out.

Paul

Good grief! Well, the good news to report right now is that I've calibrated the S97 with my Sammy 5674 using DVE and the macroblocking I saw on the Swelltone jet is all but gone.

I'm throwing in a couple of movies now to take a look, but my gut reaction after playing with the player for a few hours is that the Denon 2910 is going back, almost without fail. At this point, the picture that I'm seeing does not look $400 worse than the 2910.

Just a quick heads up ... I stumbled upon a firmware display tonight that isn't as complicated (IMHO) as posted in the FAQ ...

Hit Setup, choose Display then hit the Display button on the remote. The firmware is displayed in the lower right of the screen. Mine happens to be 85E528 - same as what most here have claimed.

I just watched some sample scenes from the following films and did not notice *any* macroblocking, along with fantastic clarity and color:

* The Fifth Element, Superbit Edition
* I, Robot
* Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring, Extended Edition, Disc 2

I'm putting the Denon 2910 in its box where it will sit for a day or so, and I've updated the Harmony remote with the S97. Me thinks the Panasonic is going to stay (and, assuming it does, a huge thanks to Paul for saving me ~$400 on the difference!)

kevinha,

The easier method only applies to the S97, otherwise it doesn't work for any other Panasonic DVD players.

Originally posted by kevinha
I just watched some sample scenes from the following films and did not notice *any* macroblocking, along with fantastic clarity and color:

* The Fifth Element, Superbit Edition
* I, Robot
* Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring, Extended Edition, Disc 2

I'm putting the Denon 2910 in its box where it will sit for a day or so, and I've updated the Harmony remote with the S97. Me thinks the Panasonic is going to stay (and, assuming it does, a huge thanks to Paul for saving me ~$400 on the difference!)

Kevin,

I also have a Sammy DLP and the S97, which replaced the more expensive 2910. I too desperately want this player to work as a replacement for the 2910. A couple of questions:

1) Could you *please* share with us in detail what your final settings are on both the Sammy and on the S97? Which of Paul's suggestions did you adopt. Hopefully I could use this as a starting point, then fine calibrate the whites, blacks, and color on my display with DVE.

2) Did you happen to check on I-Robot whether you can see the MB enhance during the first scene. Specifically, when Will Smith's alarm goes off and he stands up, the green wall in his bedroom (upper left of screen). I see bad MB enhance during this scene. Can you still see this with your improved settings?

Thanks
Randy

Hey Randy ... when I get home tonight, I'll summarize my settings and I'll double check that opening scene of I, Robot though I specifically looked for macroblocking on those walls during that scene and it looked superb.

Randy,

FWIW, this post shows all of my settings on the S97 and my Samsung HLP5063. I have had the s97 for a while now and rarely if ever see MB. It says "tentative" but I haven't changed the setting much if at all. BTW, I keep DNIe and DNR on the Samsung Off.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4627281#post4627281

For what it's worth I just watched I Robot last night and on casual observation saw no macroblocking (display is a Mitsu 52725). I'll look again tonight. I've never noticed macroblocking but I've only had the player about 2 weeks. I don't recall all settings but know I was using 720p from the player to the TV with a +1 brightness on the DVD player (per DVE this was needed to pass BTB). I think all other DVD player settings were neutral as so far I've decided to adjust tint, contrast, etc. via the TV and not the DVD player.

The big problem I did have with I Robot is terrible audio popping throughout, worse than I have ever heard. I am still chasing down if this is a problem with the player or the TV. I'm using HDMI-HDMI and tonight will try S-video with analog audio.

I dont know how new 528 firmware is because I got my S97 almost 2 months ago and its got that firmware on it.

Anyone know where to get one of these? It seems like all the reputable places are sold out.

For some background, I came home tonight and noted all of my settings. I then reset everything back to factory defaults on both devices and recalibrated with DVE. The interesting thing to note is that I arrived at very silmiar settings, though I paid more attention tonight and have listed below the settings I prefer.

Furthermore, my feeling in testing tonight is that the contrast, brightness and color controls on the S97 are far too coarse, and that I have much better control with my 5674 than with the S97. My philosophy in calibrating tonight, with this in mind, was to use the S97 for large grain adjustments (i.e., raise brightness to get black information correct - in my case +2 as I felt that +1 did not yield sufficient information) and then fine tune using the 5674s adjustments (i.e., lower the brightness.)

It also seems - to me, anyway - that the S97's contrast setting has a large part to play in how much macroblocking is seen in my configuration. As I raised the contrast on the S97, the amount of macroblocking I saw on the Swelltone jet increased considerably. This is another reason why I used the S97's adjustments no more than necessary and fine tuned with the 5674W's adjustments.

Lastly, I was asked about macroblocking in the opening scene of I, Robot. I'm happy to say that the green walls in Will's bedroom do not show any signs of macroblocking beyond what I would consider to be acceptable digital noise typical of low-light scenarios (i.e., take a digital camera and shoot at ISO 1600 in a darker room and some noise is to be expected.) Suffice to say, the reason I consider this acceptable is the macroblocking I saw on the Swelltone jet - which I do not see after calibrating - was horrible.

Here's my S97 settings:

Setup->Video->TV Aspect: 16:9
Setup->Video->TV Type: Projection
Setup->Video->Still Mode: Frame
Setup->HDMI->RGB Range: Enhanced
Setup->Others->FL Dimmer: Auto

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Contrast -1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Brightness +2
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Sharpness 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Color 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Gamma 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Depth Enh. 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: MPEG DNR 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: 3D DNR 0

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode: 720p
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Transfer Mode: Auto1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4

Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> 4:3 Aspect Ratio: Auto
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> Just Fit Zoom: 16:9 Standard
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> Manual Zoom: x1.00

Some things to note ... my Just Fit Zoom setting and Paul's from the start of this thread are different. Furthermore, my Manual Zoom is set to x1.00 - I'm not sure what Paul's is set to. I bring this up because when I was playing with the zoom yesterday I unknowningly scaled a wide aspect movie (LOTR: FOTR) to full 16:9 which was incorrect! When this happened, picture quality also took a dive.

And here's my Samsung HL-P5674W settings:

Picture->Mode->Cinema
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Contrast: 90
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Brightness: 53
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Sharpness: 0
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Color: 48
Picture->Digital NR: Off
Picture->DNIe: Off

Setup->Color Weakness: Off

And in case you're wondering, my service menu settings are at their factory default.

Hope this helps out. I still want to go get Master & Commander as Paul's macroblocking reference disc and see if there are any problem spots.

Kevinha,

Good report! For the most part I listed only those settings that were different from the factory default. A few that were the factory default were listed along side the others for readability -- the Picture Adjustment, for example.

The S97 will "Auto Aspect" to fill the screen and that was an early complaint. The settings listed in the first post avoid that issue.

The quality of the zoomed image isn't one of the S97's strongpoints. Flexible, yes, high quality, no (IMHO). The Momitsu V880 zoom is much cleaner, in my view -- just less flexible.

Paul

I wonder if the reason they are sold out at most dealers is that the S77 is coming out soon? It may also be possible that a new group will be coming in with a firmware update.

Kevin,

Thank you for taking the time post your setup so thoroughly. It was really helpful. After you posted your settings last night, I too reset my player and display to defaults, then recalibrated with DVE. As a starting point, I used your settings. The amazing thing was that I did not have to adjust white or black levels at all on my HLP5063! They were dead on with your settings. So your 5674 and my 5063 seem to be calibrated the same from the factory. The one deviation that I made from your posted settings is as follows:

Your Samsung HL-P5674W settings:
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Color: 48]

My HL-P5063W setting change:
Picture->Mode->Cinema->Color: 50

I needed to up the color slightly to get make red more accurate. As a side note, I still can't seem to get my green correct.

Next I tested the Swelltone jet -> NO MB! Looks great. I, Robot was also improved dramatically, and I think that your description is accurate: it doesn't have artifacts above what is normally acceptable in dark scenes, and it was certainly improved.

There were four major differences between your settings and my original settings (settings prior to this calibration).

Previous S97 settings:
Setup->HDMI->RGB Range: Standard
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Contrast 0

Previous HL-P5063W settings:
Picture->DNIe: On
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode: 1080i

I will continue to test these settings with some other DVD's once I get more time.

Gimletmaker, Why did you previously have the resolution set to 1080i when the native resolution of your tv is 720p? Just curious.

When u call Panny to report MS issue...they need the serial # of your player, right? Am at work...thinking of calling..but do not have the serial #

Originally posted by bojangling
Gimletmaker, Why did you previously have the resolution set to 1080i when the native resolution of your tv is 720p? Just curious.

Good question. It was set there temporarily while I was "trying" some of the settings listed in the first post of this thread. Since I just got the player and am trying to get to know it better, I thought it would be logical to start with the settings that Paul so kindly shared. I am fully aware that the HL-P5063W has a fixed resolution of 720P. Actually, when you feed this set a 720P signal, a new Picture mode called "Expand" becomes available (not a great name!). This is not documented in my manual. At this setting, the display does a 1:1 pixel mapping with the player at 720P, which is obviously the best scenario.

Mainly I was just trying out different settings in an effort to determine which ones effect the MB enhance issue to the greatest degree. I think I am coming to the same conclusion as Kevin: the contrast setting on the S97 effects the MB enhance to a large degree, at least on my display. When I set it to -1 as Kevin suggested, the MB was greatly diminished. I shared the settings that I had previously used simply as a reference point for others so that everyone would know where I had started.

gimletmaker, I'm really glad that my settings helped out with your macroblocking issues. I was stunned at the difference in macroblocking on that Swelltone jet!

I have to agree that 720p for the player with the Samsung HLP set to Expand is the way to go.

I'm going to go rent Master & Commander this afternoon and see how its opening scene looks.

Originally posted by mallu2u
When u call Panny to report MS issue...they need the serial # of your player, right? Am at work...thinking of calling..but do not have the serial #

Actually no. I asked when I called if they wanted the serial number and was told it was unnecessary. Just needed the model number. I also had registered my product online about 2 minutes before I called in.

Originally posted by kevinha

Here's my S97 settings:

Setup->HDMI->RGB Range: Enhanced



Even though this won't affect anything in your setup since you set HDMI Colorspace to YCbCr 4:4:4, so as not to confuse others, the RGB Range should be set to "Standard". If your display accepts Video RGB, which by definition it must if you have an HDMI input, then setting this to "Enhanced" can crush blacks and whites.

Originally posted by EricScott
Actually no. I asked when I called if they wanted the serial number and was told it was unnecessary. Just needed the model number. I also had registered my product online about 2 minutes before I called in.

Eric: For registration, one need the serial #, right? I guess I shall have to wait for the evening to first register and then call them? Or just have the serial # in hand and then call them. Thanks for the reply.

Originally posted by mallu2u
Eric: For registration, one need the serial #, right? I guess I shall have to wait for the evening to first register and then call them? Or just have the serial # in hand and then call them. Thanks for the reply.

Yes to register you need to SN. But I'm pretty sure that when I was talking to them on the phone they didn't have my info in their system given that I literally registered while I was on hold w/ troubleshooting.

I am not sure what getting a Case number will do. The CSR told me that she is not sure if they will call us back. Also, getting is case number has nothing to do with labor warranty. Beyond 90 days, we shall still have the pay the labor cost, unless we take to them for a fix within 90 days of purchase.:eek:
Therefore I think once we get a case number, we should also call the nearest service center and ask them to fix the issue. What do u guys say?

Originally posted by kevinha
I still want to go get Master & Commander as Paul's macroblocking reference disc and see if there are any problem spots.

Another bad macroblocking disk is Halloween: 25th Anniversary edition. In almost all of the dark scenes, it looked terrible on the panny. I have the momitsu now and it completely cleared up.

RockStrongo: Hey..your player sold for a good price on ebay!

Originally posted by mallu2u
RockStrongo: Hey..your player sold for a good price on ebay!

Yeah, it wasnt too bad....I originally paid about $20 bucks more for it, so I was satisfied.

Again, I really hated getting rid of it, but just couldnt justify keeping two players.

Im sold on the momitsu due to the region free and PAL converter. Ive already delved into the world of PAL disks and movies from other regions.

Getting a case number will put your on record. If they come up with a fix they are responsible if if the 90day period is over. They can tell you anything they want but they are leaving themselves open for a class action suite if they charge us for any fix we complained about and have on record.

The same is true for the auto companies. They may also have to exchange the unite if the come up with a fix in a new model and can't fix the 97S.

Originally posted by AnotherKingFan
Anyone know where to get one of these? It seems like all the reputable places are sold out.

I noticed the same thing. ABT had them in stock up until a couple of days ago. I put off ordering it while I did more research on it. The next day they were out. I put in my Email address at a number of sites to be notified when they come in. I have found the cheapest (of the reputable dealers) so far is J&R, followed by Vann's, then ABT. Any other suggestions?

I'm hoping that when a new batch comes in they'll have an updated firmware version. (But I'm not holding my breath.)

Also, what's the deal with the upcoming S77? With a lower model number, you would expect it to be lower on the product line. What's different about it from the S97?

hi

what is the difference between the different "types" of display you can choose in the menu. i have a LCD PJ and should of course use the LCD PJ option but if a switch to CRT PJ the picture seems to get darker this is noticeable as the menu gets darker.

does these options do something to the picture

I have my S97 hooked by component and HDMi>DVI into an InFocus 7200 projector set to 50 on contrast and brightness.

Using component (set to 480i) out w/DVE, the only adjustment I had to make was Brightness +1.

But, going into DVI, the picture is very dark compared to component, and, using DVE I had to set the S97 to Brightness +6 and Color +6.

Any one else have this experience using DVI in? Or an explanation? Should component and DVI be equal in brightness/contrast? Defective?

MadDogMike, I know that Fry's also carries the S97. The one here in Chicagoland had a whole slew of them, but for a reason ... they are charging $399 for the player!

I asked them to price match Abt Electronics price (knowing that Abt was out of stock) and Fry's refused. The department manager said he had no idea how Abt was selling them as cheap as they were, but that Fry's couldn't match ... best he would do was 10%.

Originally posted by EricScott
Even though this won't affect anything in your setup since you set HDMI Colorspace to YCbCr 4:4:4, so as not to confuse others, the RGB Range should be set to "Standard". If your display accepts Video RGB, which by definition it must if you have an HDMI input, then setting this to "Enhanced" can crush blacks and whites.

Eric, could you expand on what exactly Enhanced vs. Standard does?

And if I understand you correctly, this setting doesn't have an effect over HDMI? Would it have an impact over HDMI if I were using an RGB colorspace vs. YCbCr?

And to round it out, I've not found a good definition on the differences between YCbCr 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. I don't even know what the numbers mean! (But then again, this time last week I didn't know what speaker frequency response meant and how to properly set my sub crossover frequency, either :-))

Originally posted by kevinha
MadDogMike, I know that Fry's also carries the S97. The one here in Chicagoland had a whole slew of them, but for a reason ... they are charging $399 for the player! You can order it online for $299. I know B&H Photo and Crutchfield carry it and it's in stock unlike J&R and Vanns.

Originally posted by kevinha
Eric, could you expand on what exactly Enhanced vs. Standard does?

And if I understand you correctly, this setting doesn't have an effect over HDMI? Would it have an impact over HDMI if I were using an RGB colorspace vs. YCbCr?

And to round it out, I've not found a good definition on the differences between YCbCr 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. I don't even know what the numbers mean! (But then again, this time last week I didn't know what speaker frequency response meant and how to properly set my sub crossover frequency, either :-))

RGB colorspace can be either PC or Video - the difference being the level of black and white (PC black and white are 0 and 255 compared to Video black and white of 16 and 236 or something like that). Basically Video RGB contains blacker than black and whiter than white information, while PC RGB does not.

Without going into a ton of detail b/c I'm no expert, your HD display is expecting Video RGB. In fact HDMI by definition is designed to work with Video RGB - it's a video standard. If you have a DVI input on your display but not an HDMI input, there is a chance that your display can only accept PC RGB. This is what the Standard vs. Enhanced option is for. You want to make sure that your source device is passing the same RGB format as your display device is expecting. Standard refers to Video RGB and Enhanced refers to PC RGB - pretty confusing terminology.

However none of this matters if you are using the YCbCr color space option b/c it all applies to RGB only. If you set your colorspace option to RGB, then Enhanced vs. Standard would make a difference.

Can't help you much on YCbCr 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:2 - try the Secrets site, I think they have an explanation somewhere.

If I have a benq 8700 with a dvi should I use Enhanced or Standard :confused:
Thnx for help

To Paul Bigelow-
I just posted this in the new Sony/Qualia 006 thread in the RPTV forum -

Hear Yee, Hear Yee,
To nobleman, commoners and wenches alike,

Tonight playing in Penton’s Qualia 006 home theater is the SuperBit version of Lawrence of Arabia !

It certainly aint no Blu-ray nor D-Theater movie for that matter ---but hey, it's more than just SuperBit – it’s a remastered version under the direction of the master himself, Robert Harris (see -http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris073003.html)

Eat your heart out Paul Bigelow !!!!!!

I watched through the first cannon attack and didn't notice any macroblocking in the blacks, but I was getting some in the fog. It was most noticable in the fog through Russell Crowe's telescope and on the body of the ship itself (there's a brief moment during the first canon attack where you get a head-on shot of the ship; that looked like complete crap, but I don't know if that's the player or in the film or not. Anyone?)

The other issue I was having with this film was the blotchy skin tones with a somewhat noticable green hue in hair and the such. I attribute this somewhat to the biggest errors I see in the DVE color calibration are in the green channel, so I'm not sure if its an NTSC issue, calibration issue, S97 issue or what.

Overall, the macroblocking hasn't been real noticable. While it is there in one form or another, it's not enough to ruin a film.

HEY!!!!!!

Penton-Man I'm jealous! ;)

I bet that's one fine picture! Isn't the Superbit of that movie great? In one of those home theater threads there were comparison frames to the previous "Deluxe" version of Lawrence. I'm glad Mr. Harris got back on board and straightened things out.

Paul

Originally posted by kevinha
MadDogMike, I know that Fry's also carries the S97. The one here in Chicagoland had a whole slew of them, but for a reason ... they are charging $399 for the player!

I asked them to price match Abt Electronics price (knowing that Abt was out of stock) and Fry's refused. The department manager said he had no idea how Abt was selling them as cheap as they were, but that Fry's couldn't match ... best he would do was 10%.

I went to Fry and they DID match ABT price!! The manager that did it was Bill. He thought they had made a mistake on the price and did it for 280.00. I bought it on the 8th of January. I would go back and ask for him. He will match the price. They will match competitorss price if they have it in stock and at the time ABT was out, but he did it anyway. Good Luck!

by the way, master and commander is not a good transfer imho! that might explain for anomolies

Originally posted by kevinha
I watched through the first cannon attack and didn't notice any macroblocking in the blacks, but I was getting some in the fog. It was most noticable in the fog through Russell Crowe's telescope and on the body of the ship itself (there's a brief moment during the first canon attack where you get a head-on shot of the ship; that looked like complete crap, but I don't know if that's the player or in the film or not. Anyone?)

The other issue I was having with this film was the blotchy skin tones with a somewhat noticable green hue in hair and the such. I attribute this somewhat to the biggest errors I see in the DVE color calibration are in the green channel, so I'm not sure if its an NTSC issue, calibration issue, S97 issue or what.

Overall, the macroblocking hasn't been real noticable. While it is there in one form or another, it's not enough to ruin a film.

To me, the MB is most noticable starting from a point in the beginning of Master and Commander when the sailors are climbling the ropes during the changing of the watch. In the very next scene when the camera pans out showing the ship surrounded by fog I see lots of MB in the surrounding sky. It looks absolutely terrible.

I haven't tried your settings yet, but I might give it a shot and see if it makes any difference.

If you want to really put your DVD player to the test, try playing some Japanese anime. Because of the mpeg compression, the MB really stands out.

I would agree with your assessment of seeing macroblocking in that scene, not horribly so, but enough for me to go, "Oh. Wait. There it was."

Hi Kevin, How would u compare that scene in MAC between Denon 2910 and Penny?thnx

Originally posted by Penton-Man
To Paul Bigelow-
I just posted this in the new Sony/Qualia 006 thread in the RPTV forum -

Hear Yee, Hear Yee,
To nobleman, commoners and wenches alike,

Tonight playing in Penton’s Qualia 006 home theater is the SuperBit version of Lawrence of Arabia !

It certainly aint no Blu-ray nor D-Theater movie for that matter ---but hey, it's more than just SuperBit – it’s a remastered version under the direction of the master himself, Robert Harris (see -http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris073003.html)

Eat your heart out Paul Bigelow !!!!!!

I saw the HD version while demoing the Qualia at Sony on Madison Ave and the PQ blew the superbit to bits. The details are unbelievable.

I'm going to wait for the HD version...

Originally posted by MOTOMATTA
If I have a benq 8700 with a dvi should I use Enhanced or Standard :confused:
Thnx for help

Couldn't tell you for sure. If the only digital input is DVI (no HDMI) there's a chance your projector is expecting PC RGB. Best way to tell is to use Standard and test for blacker than black on Avia or DVE. If you can see blacker than black then your projector is expecting Video RGB and Standard is the right setting. If you can't see BTB no matter how much you turn up the brightness, then the projector probably wants PC RGB and you should set the S97 to Enhanced.

thnx

Originally posted by EricScott
Couldn't tell you for sure. If the only digital input is DVI (no HDMI) there's a chance your projector is expecting PC RGB. Best way to tell is to use Standard and test for blacker than black on Avia or DVE. If you can see blacker than black then your projector is expecting Video RGB and Standard is the right setting. If you can't see BTB no matter how much you turn up the brightness, then the projector probably wants PC RGB and you should set the S97 to Enhanced.

ugh. i tried setting contrast to -1, hdmi colorspace tp ycbcr, rgb mode to standard, but still macroblocking. this is on a 6163w. i hate this! i hope panasonic comes out with a fix SOON! if you really want to see macroblocking bad, watch either of hte first 2 harry potter movies (not sure about 3rd) and especially watch the clouds that come with the warner bros logo.

Did anyone get any more news about the firmware updates?


I took my S97 in to Panasonic Canada today after exchanging emails with them re problems with macroblocking and pink digital noise in both HDMI and component; they installed new firmware, version #85E536, said it was just posted yesterday (Thursday, Jan 20).

Macroblocking is now all but gone and digital noise is minimal. The S97 has gone from a boat anchor in my setup to a pretty good upconverting player.

I wonder when Panasonic will release the new firmware in the US. It should be soon since it was release in Canada. Jay, where there any other changes in picture quality that you noticed. Would it be possible to
run a test DVD?

Hi Jay:

Thats for the info.

I've sent you the PM so please let me know all the info.

Sango

Jay, they didn't give it to you on a cd did they? I may smell a repurchase in my future. Can this player play xvids? I know it doesn't play mpeg4 like the box says.

Jay, they didn't give it to you on a cd did they?

Alas, no.

Setting the player up just by eye, I reran some scenes from various dvds that were dismal before the firmware upgrade:

• Seabiscuit, foggy morning workout scene
Pre: pink noise throughout fog, dithering in sublte color transitions, macroblocking in dark colors
Post: noise and dithering are no longer apparent from normal viewing distance, no macroblocking

• Moulin Rouge, opening musical number, introduction of Satine
Pre: macroblocking in dark colors, digital look to faces, dithering in color transitions
Post: no more macroblocking, faces look much smoother, minimal dithering

• Horse Whisperer, shadowy horse in snow during opening titles
Pre: terrible noise and dithering, macroblocking in dark areas
Post: noise and macroblocking no longer apparent, still a bit of dithering. As this is an old non-anamorphic disc, the picture does degrade a bit when zoomed

• Field of Dreams: 10th Anniversary SE, various, this isn't the greatest transfer to begin with, too red
Pre: pretty much unwatchable, severe noise, dithering and macroblocking in low-light scenes, bright scenes look too "digital"
Post: a lot smoother, more natural look, minimal noise and dithering still apparent, no macroblocking, bright scenes now look very nice

So far, so good. Hopefully things will improve even further when I get a chance to properly callibrate.

Hi Jay:

Can you provide an insight using the unit on via component?

I also replied back PM.

Sango

Hello Jay,

Thanks for the report. This firmware sounds like good news. By any chance was the display recalibrated with DVE or Avia after the upgrade? Just want to be certain that the firmware change isn't hiding the macroblock enhance.

Also, is there any difference in the macroblock enhance between 720p and 1080i?

Thank you again!

Paul

Hello,

Just put a bold "Breaking News" section at the beginning of the first post of the thread for firmware versions, number to call etc.

Is there a particular number to call for Canada?

Paul

Paul,

Any chance you will re-compare and post results between the Sony 975 and Panny with the new firmware?

Most definitely! Now if we can only get this fix in the USA...

Paul

Originally posted by jcc
I saw the HD version while demoing the Qualia at Sony on Madison Ave and the PQ blew the superbit to bits. The details are unbelievable.


Well honestly, I'm not surprised but if I could buy the HD version NOW and had the capacity to play it....well I'd hate to see how many innocent bystanders got run over during Paul and me racing to get the first available one.:D

Paul -
Thanks for staying on the MB issue and posting that Breaking News on page1 so quickly !!

Can you provide an insight using the unit on via component?


I haven't optimized the settings for component yet, but a quick A/B comparison with hdmi shows similar improvement to the various issues. I'm watching Friday Night Lights right now, and while there is still a little noise in very dark scenes, the player seems to be performing well.

I got my upgrade through Panasonic's Vancouver service center. They did it while I waited, and ran a quick bench test over component:

"IMS...CustomerCare" <CustomerCare@ca.panasonic.com>
604 278-4211

I'm watching Friday Night Lights right now, and while there is still a little noise in very dark scenes, the player seems to be performing well.

When you say "little noise" --- is this still an issue with the player, or just something on the disc?

When I get the firmware, I will be able to do my comparison with the S97 since I own the other Panny Faroudjas.

When you say "little noise" --- is this still an issue with the player, or just something on the disc?

I suspect it's the player. Given that the upconversion process is displaying more information than actually exists, I'm willing to forgive a little noise along the way. The nature of the beast, I suppose. But considering this player right out of the box was virtually unwatchable to me, and no amount of tweaking was improving things, this new firmware version is a huge improvement. It's not perfect, but a year from now, when we've got bonafide HD dvd players, it won't matter any more ;)

I just purchased the s97 today!! I got one in Boulder, CO for 270.00!! I showed them the www3.one.com site, and they went for it!!!! I run the HDMI through to a Toshiba 30HF84 (I hope this set will offer the Panny the respect it deserves, any comments would be wonderful!)... I am very new to the world of Videophile but I am starting strong I hope... can I assume that the firmware will be available to us in the US, per the post on the main page here.... is that true? right out of the box i see that during the opening sequence of Spiderman 2 that the reds have a lot of, well i again have to assume Macroblocking?? is this what the firmware will help eleviate?? thanks a TON everyone!! I hope I am not being TOO redundant, seeing is how there is like 130 pages so far!!

I took my S97 in to Panasonic Canada today after exchanging emails with them re problems with macroblocking and pink digital noise in both HDMI and component; they installed new firmware, version #85E536, said it was just posted yesterday (Thursday, Jan 20).

Huh. I wonder if I can run my s97 up to vancouver and have them do it for mine.

Jay,

Is the noise still there at 480P HDMI where there is no upconversion?

Thanks.

Dave:

You can try but they are going to ask for an address(a Canadian one).

Sango

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Well honestly, I'm not surprised but if I could buy the HD version NOW and had the capacity to play it....well I'd hate to see how many innocent bystanders got run over during Paul and me racing to get the first available one.:D

LOL!!! :D

Why isn't this movie out on D-VHS?

In the early 90's, Penton-Man, a High-Definition version came out in Japan on a Laser Disc verison known as "Hi-Vision". Japan-only market. Required a special (expensive) LD player. About one hundred titles were released.

Here's some info: http://japanld.free.fr/laserdisc.php?id=265

Paul

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Paul -
Thanks for staying on the MB issue and posting that Breaking News on page1 so quickly !!

You're welcome. I just posted the news on the first post so essential info doesn't get buried in the the thread. Other people did the work and have the fix and reported it. I'm just waiting for USA availability of the fix like everyone else.

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
Dave:

You can try but they are going to ask for an address(a Canadian one).

Sango

Send them all to Sango! ;)

Paul

Steel, dude! harry potter too, is also darkest and worse of 3, possibly explaining MB

Jay,

Do you mind describing your setup for us - what type of display are you using? How is the s97 connected?

If I understand your posts correctly you have tested both component at 480p and HDMI at 720p for MB after getting the new firmware.

You describe the MB before the upgrade as making movies unwatchable. Fortunately for me (Samsung HLP5063 - HDMI @ 720p), MB is not a big deal - rarely see it at all. Just curious what display you are using. Obviously I don't want to upgrade firmware if there are any adverse side effects on PQ just to improve MB, which I rarely see.

Thanks and glad you are happy with your upgrade.

Has anyone called a Panny service center near their house? If yesm what did they have to say about firmware upgrade? When I spoke to Technical support yesterday, they told me that they might release a firmware in end of Jan or first half of Feb.

double posting!
sent you a PM maullu2

I'm new here, but have read this thread for a while. Just curious if we have to bring the unit in to update the firmware for S97. Or, we can do it ourself. If we can do it, anybody already had the file and I'll be more than happy to host it for you guys. Thankx. :)

PS. I called the 1-800 number Sango gave for panasonic tech support, but no luck it's always busy.

Help!!
I tried to connect my S97 via HDMi today, but to no avail. It works fine with component. I get a U70-3 error, which indicates a possible cable problem, I swapped cables with a working one and still get this error code. No picture, just a bunch of lines and it goes from black to these lines. Maybe my problem is using a GEFEN HDTV switch, but my other inputs Satellite and cable work fine. I would appreciate any information.
thanks,
Caboman

Do you mind describing your setup for us - what type of display are you using? How is the s97 connected?

I am running the S97 to my Toshiba 44-inch DLP (apparently a LG rebadge) via hdmi>dvi and via component. As reported much earlier in this thread, the player does output to both simultaneously, so it's pretty easy to do A/B comparisons.

I just ran through some more scenes on various discs, and there is still some macroblocking visible, especially in dark backgrounds of dark scenes, but it is considerably reduced from before the firmware upgrade. It is slightly less apparent on hdmi 480p and component.

I did consider this might be the tv, as I also see macroblocking and dithering when watching a standard tv feed, which is upconverted by the set to 720p; but looking at the true HD presentation of Aladdin right now on ABC-HD, the picture is pristine :)

Time for Sango to talk to Panasonic HQ to get them to sort this out!

Panasonic USA needs to sort it out as well. I have my case number but the person I talked to seemed to be completely clueless as to what is happening.

Paul

Yeah USA is messed up. They ask me to call them but the 800 number is a "busy" signal and their 888 is, please wait for the next representitive (forever and ever etc....!!!)

Can't reach Panasonic.

I wonder if the reason it was always busy yesterday is because of the big
snow storm in the Northeast. Panasonic is located in NJ and they may have closed early or be short staffed. During the week I had no problem getting through. I have a case number but they did not get back to me.
The first person with whom I spoke was clueless. She did pass me on to
someone else who told me that the problem would be escalated to the
higher ups. I asked how firmware is usually updated on other units when I spoke to the second person as was told that a disk is usually sent out.

I will call again on Monday. I would suggest that others do the same.

I want to thank Paul and Sango again for their great work with this unit.

Hope we can get the new firmware soon.

rwestley,

The USA 800 number was busy but I kept trying and got through. The snow storm might play a role in connectivity : staffing and phone line integrity.

Paul

Originally posted by Jay Suburb
I am running the S97 to my Toshiba 44-inch DLP (apparently a LG rebadge) via hdmi>dvi and via component. As reported much earlier in this thread, the player does output to both simultaneously, so it's pretty easy to do A/B comparisons.

I just ran through some more scenes on various discs, and there is still some macroblocking visible, especially in dark backgrounds of dark scenes, but it is considerably reduced from before the firmware upgrade. It is slightly less apparent on hdmi 480p and component.


Thanks Jay - given that you have a DLP I am particularly interested in your findings. Sounds like MB is improved w/ the new firmware. Any noticeable other PQ problems that you didn't have w/ the previous firmware version?

I have been wondering will this player stretch everything to widescreen on my Toshiba 30hf84? My Toshiba dvd player did that and i hated it... so far everything that i have watched has and so did Casablanca, but i heard that there is a setting so that old films like that can be seen as they were inteded and it will put the bars on the sides of the tv, is that true?

Yes, it will pillarbox 4:3 but it will also zoom non-anamorphic DVDs and the zoom on this player is awful! It's better to let your TV do that. Just a word of warning if an older DVD looks awful (happened to me with Nightmare Before Christmas.)

Any noticeable other PQ problems that you didn't have w/ the previous firmware version?

I don't know if this is a firmware issue or not, but when I tried watching a couple of episodes from the third season of Curb Your Enthusiasm last night, the PQ from the S97 was brutal; harsh digital reddish look to shadows and low-light interiors, a grey shirt that Larry David holds up in Ep. 1 was swimming with pink noise. This was at each of the Video Transfer settings, Auto1, Auto2 and Video. Popped the disc into my venerable Toshiba 5901 and everything looked great, natural shadows and flesh tones, no noise, minimal dithering. Put one of my post-upgrade test movies back into the S97 and it still looked good. One step forward, half a step back. Ugh.

Originally posted by caboman
Help!!
I tried to connect my S97 via HDMi today, but to no avail. It works fine with component. I get a U70-3 error, which indicates a possible cable problem, I swapped cables with a working one and still get this error code. No picture, just a bunch of lines and it goes from black to these lines. Maybe my problem is using a GEFEN HDTV switch, but my other inputs Satellite and cable work fine. I would appreciate any information.
thanks,
Caboman

Is there a cable length restriction? The 2 cables I need to use are a total of 12ft. One is 6ft from the DVD into the switch, the other 6ft cable from the switch to the TV. Both cables are GEFEN DVI/HDMI. Any suggestions.
thanks,
Caboman

I tried calling Panasonic 888 number and it's busy while their 800 number works now but asking to wait forever!! Some kind of relation?

For the people who did get in contact with Panasonic US. What is your case numbers so we can gather them all up so confront them about this.

I just found out that the 800 number system is a bit werid since they changed it. When you keep selecting "other" inquires, you will eventually get to the automated message which finally saids, the "wait" time which gives you a very good idea of how long to hold.

By selecting the correct option which applies you, you never hear that which is very bizzare because it used to work before before they must of changed the menu options.

Update a bit... 888 number works now but still have to old w/o knowing wait time.

Sango

People, I think the only way to "register" this defect is to take it to a local authorized repair center. There should be one near your local area.

By just calling them, it will not really get Panasonic where it hurts, their P&L. Taking it to a service center will cost them at least $85-$120 a pop. These service centers will charge Panasonic for your visit. This is especially true for the independent centers.

I haven't had a chance to do this yet but as my warranty expiration date approaches I will take it to the service center to "register" this unit. Hopefully by that time, they will have the new firmware to upgrade on the spot so that it won't have to stay overnight.

Talk is cheap, a visit like the guy in Vancouver is the true way to "register".

Caboman,

Did you try connecting your player directly to the Display? Your switcher may be causing some conflict with the handshaking, or maybe it's not HDCP compliant. Try hooking up directly to eliminate the switcher.

BTW, I'm using a 30' HDMI cable from RAM cables (REV2) with no problems. I'm actually using a HDMI-DVI-D connection to go into my projector.

Hello all,

After reading through the posts here, I purchased the S97 to go along with the AE700 PJ and the Pioneer 1014 receiver, as well as the Cablevision-supplied HDPVR box. Can anyone suggest a connection setup?

My PJ will be about 25 cable feet away from the receiver/DVD.

Thanks!

Originally posted by jcc
Talk is cheap, a visit like the guy in Vancouver is the true way to "register".

I think you ment Jay!

Well I can do it too since the Panasonc Factory Service Center is in the city I'm from and have been there. I'm not there right now until probably next week or so it isn't that easy in my case. I'll give the FSC a call tommorow and if they can help out.

Sango

Paul, Sango & crew,


Thanks for all of the work on this unit. I just got one and the only real concern I have is that; the unit shuts off 30% of the time when I close the tray, with OR without a disk in the tray. I have tried to duplicate it and to best of my effort, this happens when I gently nudge the tray up, down or sideways. Any insight on this is appreciated.

Thanks for the lead info on the MB fix. That's all this unit needs and it's a star.

Bladerunner

Hi Bladerunner1959:

Welcome to the forums!! I never really heard of this problem about the unit shutting off from closing the try but perhaps you can try this to see if this eliminates it.

The reset sequence:
On the unit hold PAUSE + BWD-SKIP + OPEN for about 3 seconds. The display will display "initialization" or "int".

While initialization is being displayed, let go off all 3 buttons, then press and hold STOP + BWD-SKIP + OPEN.

The display will then display "reset".
Set your user settings.

Sango

Originally posted by kevinha
I watched through the first cannon attack and didn't notice any macroblocking in the blacks, but I was getting some in the fog. It was most noticable in the fog through Russell Crowe's telescope and on the body of the ship itself (there's a brief moment during the first canon attack where you get a head-on shot of the ship; that looked like complete crap, but I don't know if that's the player or in the film or not. Anyone?)

The other issue I was having with this film was the blotchy skin tones with a somewhat noticable green hue in hair and the such. I attribute this somewhat to the biggest errors I see in the DVE color calibration are in the green channel, so I'm not sure if its an NTSC issue, calibration issue, S97 issue or what.

Overall, the macroblocking hasn't been real noticable. While it is there in one form or another, it's not enough to ruin a film.


I see the green the hue in some dvd's.

jason

Originally posted by Bladerunner1959
Paul, Sango & crew,


Thanks for all of the work on this unit. I just got one and the only real concern I have is that; the unit shuts off 30% of the time when I close the tray, with OR without a disk in the tray. I have tried to duplicate it and to best of my effort, this happens when I gently nudge the tray up, down or sideways. Any insight on this is appreciated.

Thanks for the lead info on the MB fix. That's all this unit needs and it's a star.

Bladerunner

the tray thing has happened to me too.

jason

If the reset doesn't work, it may sound like a electronic glitch or a short?

Sango

in your experience, are firmware fixes released in the UK at the same time as US/Canada? Is there a special number I can call? I just imagine that I will probably spend most fo the day trying to get through to Panasonic UK just to find that the firmware isn't available here yet :rolleyes:

gstdt:

I'm not sure if they releases are released at the same time but they should be. Japan definately released it first and they must of distributed it to the other Panasonics accordingly.

You need to try to ask your local Panasonic reguarding thee updates. Try the Factory Service Center if there is one as well.

Technically the update should be the same for the other units (unless specified that is't not) which are in a different country because the programming would be simlar. If you look at the firmware it should be identical.

The part I'm not so sure is with the units with the SCART or RGB connector because they are on some of the R2 units depending on where you gotten them.

Sango

No problem getting the update in Toronto. I am dropping it off at the service center today and it will be ready tomorrow. They were very conversant about the macroblocking issue but are not releasing it at the website for now.

Just called the 800 # and the representative knew nothing about any updates. I have rephrased my question in several different ways, but she was adamant that there is no fix.

Has anyone had any luck with Panny US?

Should I have just complained about a terrible picture and asked for a replacement unit?


Thanks

yes, keep complaining, if we have enough complains, the fix will be issued..


Originally posted by svolman
Just called the 800 # and the representative knew nothing about any updates. I have rephrased my question in several different ways, but she was adamant that there is no fix.

Has anyone had any luck with Panny US?

Should I have just complained about a terrible picture and asked for a replacement unit?


Thanks

I just called Panasonic again at the following number 1-800-211-7262.

These people are clueless. They claimed to not know about the Macroblocking or firmware update even thought many have called in and have case numbers.

I told them to check the AVS forum and they asked me if the people were telling the truth. At this point I asked to speak to a supervisor and got cut off. It is very frustrating since they are doing the updates in Canada and other countries.

If anyone knows a person in charge at Panasonic please let them know about this lack of communication. I think we should all call and get case numbers. Keep bugging them till they release the firmware.

jakeman:

Did you happen to call cusatomer care first or you just called the SVC Cetner?

Sango

Well,
I just got off the phone with Panasonic and the person I spoke with took all my info, including serial# of the unit and said to take the DVD player into a video tech store that I actually get all my stuff fixed at and she said that they would do the firmware fix.

I'll get back to you with the result - just hoping the local store isn't clueless.

Paul Bigelow-

Please check your PM.

Penton:

Which Panaosnic did you call and who is "the person", you spoken with?

Thanks

Sango

I have just been on the phone for over an hour and I have been cut off 3 times.

I think the next step is the bring the unit into a service center and place it in their laps. We could also demand a new unit. I will wait a few days to see if
anyone else gets a different answer or if someone gets the firmware. It is amazing how bad Panasonic support in the US is.

Just called the local service guy and he knew nothing about this. He called Panasonic and they told him there wasn't any updates.

Pretty silly if you ask me.


Originally posted by Penton-Man
Well,


I'll get back to you with the result - just hoping the local store isn't clueless.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Well,
I just got off the phone with Panasonic and the person I spoke with took all my info, including serial# of the unit and said to take the DVD player into a video tech store that I actually get all my stuff fixed at and she said that they would do the firmware fix.

I'll get back to you with the result - just hoping the local store isn't clueless.

Bingo!

Don't waste your time with calling Panasonic. Instead, call your local authorized service repair shop. These shops receive service bulletins which apprise them of service issues. I would call them and ask them directly if they have the new firmware. If not I would check back with them in a couple of weeks. If your warranty is about to expire, I would run my unit in to "register" the problem and ask them to get the new firmware for you. Calling Panasonic is a waste of time because the people that answer the phones are clueless and unable to do anything for you.

Use this link to find a local repair center:

http://www.pasc.panasonic.com/WhereTo/FindServicer.asp?Pass=1

Originally posted by svolman
Just called the local service guy and he knew nothing about this. He called Panasonic and they told him there wasn't any updates.

Pretty silly if you ask me.

It could be that these updates are too new. Try a dfifferent shop. If your warranty is about to expire, run your unit in so that the warranty can be extended for this problem. They are obligated to fix it free of charge.

I just spoken to Steven from the Panasonic Factory Service Center and he is fully aware of the update which is available.

When I asked him about obtaining the update, he is unable to make a copy because it is for the SVC Center or not fro the general public.

At least good Steve knows his stuff! =) Same guy who helped me in the past when we found out that the Panasonic RP82 had ver 300 before I found out about 302 later!.

Time to talk back with Panasonic Customer Care.

Better news.

I called Customer Care just now saying that I talked to Steven and they told me that they just recieved a note that all called reguarding the S97 is to be directed to another person who was not available at the time.

I'll be getting a call back ASAP as they are fully aware of macroblocking when I as asked if it is reguarding it.

Sango

I just got off the phone with my local service center on Long Island. The
person with whom I spoke did not hear of any upgrade yet. He told me that they are usually notified by Email about any updates. He took down my name, address, and phone number along with my case number and promised to contact his rep at Panasonic. He was very familar with the
problem. He was also wondering if there would be a different upgrade for the US.

I would suggest that others contact their local service centers.

Originally posted by Sango
Penton:

Which Panaosnic did you call and who is "the person", you spoken with?

Thanks

Sango
Simply called the U.S. - 800 number and spoke with a person named "Me" ? sp.

But I plan on running to the local service place soon because my 90 day runs out on Wed.

Sango, I assume you are calling Panasonic in Canada. Any suggestions for dealing with the problem in the US.

Thanks for your great effort

Sango, I spoke to a technician in service at their Mississauga centre whom I had called last week. She had initially said it might take a few weeks but they were apparently much closer to releasing it than she initially led on. Very knowledgable and said to drop it off today. I will report back after picking up the upgraded unit.

rwestley:

I was calling both of them but it seems apparent that Canada is better aware than the US is. I guess somebody in the company not keeping up to date of what's going on from the factory(as in Panasonic Japan).

Sango

Originally posted by Massimo N
Caboman,

Did you try connecting your player directly to the Display? Your switcher may be causing some conflict with the handshaking, or maybe it's not HDCP compliant. Try hooking up directly to eliminate the switcher.

BTW, I'm using a 30' HDMI cable from RAM cables (REV2) with no problems. I'm actually using a HDMI-DVI-D connection to go into my projector.

I did connect directly to my 50" Panny and it works fine, it also works connected via component. I tried switching ports, no luck. Is anyone using a GEFEN switch with their S97??????????
This is very frustrating, spend all this money for the switch and DVD player and it doesn' work.. my cable TV and sat dish go throught the switch and they work fine.
Caboman

<music> "Thank you for calling. Your call is important to us. Please remain on the line for the next available representative." <music> "Thank you for calling. Your call...."

;)

Paul

My local servicer states that they do not perform firmware updates -- that it has to be sent in.

Paul

Paul, makes you look at Momitsu a bit differently...



Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
My local servicer states that they do not perform firmware updates -- that it has to be sent in.

Paul

Nah. I always like the Momitsu's firmware update capability. However, the Momitsu's deinterlacing still isn't motion adaptive and they still haven't come up with a fix for a soft image.

Paul

Hi Paul and others. I just spoke to the people at the Customer Service Center in Mc Allen TX. They told me they just exchange the units and they
do not have the 97S in stock. They also told me you may get one back with the same firmware you have. They did tell me to call 1-800-973-4326.

I called and there is a 40 minute wait. Some way to do business!!!

rwestley,

That's interesting. I haven't called McAllen yet. But when on the 800 number I specifically stated that I didn't want an exchange but a firmware update. The person said for me to include a note.

I'm going back to my servicer or see if there is another site.

This brings up and interesting question. How does one really get these units fixed?

Paul

OK more progress. I just came back from the service center at Panasonic HQ near Toronto where I was only the second person to get the upgrade at that location. The service people were very courteous and upgraded the player to v536 while I waited for 5 min. I was cautioned that macroblocking is not entirely eliminated but reduced significantly to the point they are comfortable releasing this version to the public. They are continuing to work with Faroudja and we can expect another firmware update in a month when they hope to have the problem completely eliminated. The pink tint in the whites is related to the macroblocking issue and is also much reduced but also not gone completely. I will test it tonight.

I also called my local service center and was told that they had received no
information about a firmware update as of yet. I think Sango is right that
someone is not keeping up with the factory in Japan. I wish someone in
Canada could get a copy of the new firmware.

Do NOT, I repeat, Do NOT send your unit to McAllen!!!!

You may never see your unit again!!!!!!!!

That center is only an exchange center. They WILL NOT SERVICE your unit!!!!!!


Keep looking for a local service center! Also, please have some patience. These large orgainzations work slowly. It will take weeks for all of their folks to be brought up to speed. Until then, you'll get a lot of blank stares. The best course of action if your local service guy doesn't have the update yet is to go in and register your unit before the warranty expiration. That way, once they have it you won't be charged for the update.

OK.

I explained to my local authorized servicer the issue and *pressed* for some help. They agreed to accept the unit. The Mc Allen references have been removed to prevent confusion.

Paul

Rwestley, I asked for a copy and was told that it is only released to qualified Panasonic personel. Judging from the conversation it looked like service staff in Canada had been working closely with their counterparts in Japan.

Well, using jcc's link I just called a couple of "select" service centers in the Bay Area and a more local "authorized" service center. None of them appear to be familiar with the firmware update. They are all happy to have me bring the unit in along with the receipt to verify that it's still under the 90 day warranty. They claim they can contact Panasonic to get the firmware after "diagnosing the problem." What should I do??

Would the 'manufactured' date of the S97S labelled on the back of the player or box be of any importance when purchasing one with the latest firmware? Or does it even matter? There is a manufactured date of Nov 04 and Dec 04, from my local big-box.

Or, is it better to hold out for a Jan 05 or Feb 05, etc. manufactured date, hoping that these players will have newer firmware?

It might make a difference. Mine is manufactured Sept. 2004. November & December 2004 is definitely later. Don't know if there will be any further production runs.

Paul

Paul thaks for the PM reply !

Folks,
I just followed jcc's advice as above.

Took the player into my local authorized service center as recommended by the Panny 800# people.
I'm in their work order as requesting the newest firmware version for picture "blotchiness"- I didn't want to confuse the minimum wage earner at the desk.

I talked to a supervisor and he said that if they couldn't get the firmware in a week, I could pick up my player from them so I could use it at home and just wait until they get the firmware. Then bring it back.

The only thing that matters is that I got it in under the 90 day window.

I had my firmware updated today at a local service center (Canada), in and out in 20 minutes, so thought I'd share some limited impressions of the upgrade.

I'll say upfront that the primary use of the S97 is for it's 480i output into an Iscan and only use the Faroudja(480P) into the Iscan for some Video content concerts. The primary reasons for upgrading was simply to determine if there were any obvious improvements other than the macroblocking issue. I should also note that when using the Faroudja the only time I've witnessed anything remotely resembling macroblocking or noisy blacks (other than the usual dithering) is on the Dave Matthews Listener Supported DVD.

After running though a few tests in both 480i and 480p outputs I see no negative side effects of the uprade, there is no crushing of blacks or loss of resolution that I can discern, de-interlacing performance is unchanged as well. Pixel cropping appears to unchanged as well (darn) when running the player straight into the PJ at about 4% all the way around. The best cropping performance is when running 480P into the Iscan which shows 2 cropped on left, 0 pixels on right, 6 from the top and 2 from the bottom of the image. This is unchanged and it's obvious performance varies depending on what you've connected the player to.

After playing the Dave Matthews DVD I'm pleased to report that whatever minor issues I've noticed in the past on this DVD have been remedied. Blacks are clean and clear with none of the issues I've previously witnessed.

So other than the noted improved black level performance I note no other improvements and better yet I see no negative side effects of the fix. Of course YMMV.

It is amazing after reading the posts from Canada that US Panasonic can be so clueless. I wish I could contact someone at Panasonic in Japan regarding the issue and the frustrations in getting anyone to understand or do anything about it. It might also be possible that Panasonic in the US is waiting for a final fix before releasing any firmware. See the post above by Jakeman regarding another new firmware in about a month.

Originally posted by rwestley
It is amazing after reading the posts from Canada that US Panasonic can be so clueless. I wish I could contact someone at Panasonic in Japan regarding the issue and the frustrations in getting anyone to understand or do anything about it. It might also be possible that Panasonic in the US is waiting for a final fix before releasing any firmware. See the post above by Jakeman regarding another new firmware in about a month.



That's the beauty of my plan. By registering your problem at the local service center, you'll be able to get free firmware updates pretty much forever...just go back to the local service center whenever a new one is released and tell them that they never fixed the problem with the previous version. Tell them that there's still a MB issue and it's covered by the original warranty.

I can just see Panasonic management's faces when they see a huge bill for all the continuous re-servicing of the S97. Makes me think that they will find a solution to this problem really quickly! That's what they get for releasing a product without QA.

Wuuuhahahahahaha!!!:D

I was cautioned that macroblocking is not entirely eliminated but reduced significantly to the point they are comfortable releasing this version to the public. They are continuing to work with Faroudja and we can expect another firmware update in a month when they hope to have the problem completely eliminated.

As that has been my observation post-upgrade, that is good news Jakeman. Now, I wonder if Panasonic will make an effort to contact those of us who have been fortunate enough to get this firmware upgrade and are entered into their system, to advise us of the further fix, or if it will be up to us to pester them as to when it will be released? I'm assuming firmware can be upgraded multiple times?

The unit is much improved with the new firmware, but I'd like to believe in its inner greatness once they get these remaining issues sorted out ;)

Your assumption is correct Jay Suburb. I was told to check back with them in mid-February for the newer firmware. But the tone of the discussion suggested it could be available sooner. They are committed to customer satisfaction and were quite contrite about the inconvenience. No need to produce a receipt or evidence of warranty. They also were interested in feedback regarding v.536.

You know, with the release of the new firmware, I wonder how much of it is really just window dressing and how much of it is really fixing the problem. I wonder if there's an inherent flaw in the chip sets used by this model player and any "fix" entails cosmetically changing the contrast or brightness so that the MB is less noticeable? I have a feeling that this is the case and any fix will involve a trade off in some other PQ.

Those who received the new firmware will have a chance to really take this thing for a test run to see if that's the case. I guess that in the end as long as the MB is significantly reduced without too much sacrifice to the PQ is good enough for us???

That brings me to another quandary. What if subsequent versions of the firmware does reduce MB at the expense of PQ? What if right now with the old firmware we're at the high end of the PQ and the only way to reduce the MB is the reduce the PQ? Would we be satisfied with that? If that's the case would some of us rather keep the current firmware?

jcc,

When more people have firmware updates and we get more reports we should be able to characterize the positive and negative, if any, aspects of this update.

When I get this update, believe me, I'll put it though its paces. While contrast and brightness tricks can hide the macroblocking to some extent with normal/casual viewing, it's the test patterns that will tell the truth.

Paul

Would anyone who has had an update please post the new firmware number.

85E536 -- it's documented in the first post.

Paul

I though that there might have been another one since that release. It seems that the same new firmware has been released all over the world except in the US. I am still wondering if they are holding off the release so they don't have to do it more that once. You know how they hate to pay service centers. It also seems strange that they just don't post it or send out the DVD with instructions. This could save them big money even if there were a few bad flashes.

We gave them almost three months. If Panasonic desires to make the process expensive for themselves -- that's their call. In it goes!

Paul

I called my local Panasonic approved service and they had never heard of this problem and had not received any service bulletins about it. They suggested that I bring it in and as my 90 days runs out in mid-February, I'll probably bring it in soon to register the problem.

My experience with Panasonic (I had a shut down problem with my plasma) is that the front line service reps are friendly but entirely clueless. Once you get to the next level they are fairly responsive, however.

Further to my previous post regarding the new firmware 536, I spent a little more time with the Iscans internal reference brightness and contrast patterns, DVE's reverse ramps, pluge patterns and video montages in an effort to locate any obvious manipulation of brightness and contrast.

Using the IScan's brightness and contrast patterns as references levels it's apparent the DVD players absolute levels of brightness and contrast have not changed. The exact same levels of brightness and contrast match the patterns pre and post update.

Viewing DVE's reverse ramps show no obvious holes or manipulation of the brightness or contrast. The graduations between shades appear to be consistent and similar to what I remember the pre upgrade ramps to be. (unfortunately I purged my system of older photos of these ramps so can't compare photos). Though measuring equipment should be used to confirm and obviously may show something entirely contrary to my findings, my eyes don't perceive anything out of the ordinary.

Viewing DVE's montages paying particular attention to the water fountain nighttime scene (more specifically the background trees) and the bridge scene I perceive no differences in black detail or levels.

That's all for now except I must say the customer service reps in Canada accessible through email are terrific.

Hugh(Huge j/k!)

Do you have any more macroblocking comparisons from before and after?

Sango

Originally posted by Hugh2

That's all for now except I must say the customer service reps in Canada accessible through email are terrific.
Hugh2-
That's NOT all.
Tell me did you ever..as you said about 50 pages ago...."I've yet to track down the cause of my noise but my first my test will be to shut down all circuits in the house except for what running the DVD player and PJ and go from there."
-just wondering what the wife's reaction was to that.

Separation? Divorce? Or did you do it at 3 a.m. and just harass the poor dog?

Originally posted by Sango
Hugh(Huge j/k!)

That still makes me laugh.

[i]Do you have any more macroblocking comparisons from before and after?

Sango [/B]

I mentioned in a post on the previous page that the only issue I had with anything close to what may be considered macroblocking was with Dave Matthews Listener Supported concert DVD. The artifacts appeared as subtle streaky blotchiness often on this DVD in dark black or blue/black scenes when running 480P out of the player. This artifact is not present when running 480i into the Iscan nor have I witnessed this blothiness when using any other player but regardless the upgraded firmware has definitely eliminated this artifact when using the Faroudja de-interlacer. The dark blues and blacks are now clean and not distracting.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Hugh2-
That's NOT all.
Tell me did you ever..as you said about 50 pages ago...."I've yet to track down the cause of my noise but my first my test will be to shut down all circuits in the house except for what running the DVD player and PJ and go from there."
-just wondering what the wife's reaction was to that.

Separation? Divorce? Or did you do it at 3 a.m. and just harass the poor dog?

Hello Penton-Man,

No actually, at this point I haven't tracked down the source. Just about the time I posted that there was an unbelievable tradgedy in my family and I lost my enthusiasm to follow that up. My wife is in the States tonight so maybe it's a good time to begin flipping breakers.

The werid thing about Panasonic Canada is that the firmware is for authorized tech. Well since I've gotten discs in the past and even gotten the official one as well, doesn't that contridict what they just said?

thank you :)

Everyone is so interested in this firmware that my problem has gone un-noticed. Where are all the hi-tech guys, no one seems to know how to solve this problem. There's got to be someone who is using a switch. Please respond. Last night I powered down all devices including the switch, waited a few minutes, powered up but still have the same problem.
Caboman


Originally posted by caboman
I did connect directly to my 50" Panny and it works fine, it also works connected via component. I tried switching ports, no luck. Is anyone using a GEFEN switch with their S97??????????
This is very frustrating, spend all this money for the switch and DVD player and it doesn' work.. my cable TV and sat dish go throught the switch and they work fine.
Caboman

caboman,

I don't have the switch.

The U70-3 error doesn't necessarily indicate a cable problem -- it could indicate an HDMI/HDCP compatibility problem. The DVD-S97 incorporates the latest version of the HDMI spec 1.1, if I recall, because the S97 passes multichannel DVD-Audio. Is it possible the the Geffen 4x1 DVI switcher is having an issue with the new HDMI spec thus a possible conflict? Perhaps the Panasonic player is not fully to spec. I think your post on the Geffen site forum is a step in the right direction. Try this order of powering on the devices:

1. TV
2. Geffen
3. S97

If this suggestion doesn't work (and cables have already been swapped) ultimately it's probably an issue for Geffen and Panasonic to work out.

Paul

I agree it is a probably HDMI/HDCP compatibility problem with the 97S. I have a swithch from Pacific Cable and have the same problem. It will works with everything but the 97S. I called Pacific Cable and I have received no answer.

I wonder if the new firmware will make any difference?

Just called the Service Center in Washington DC Area. Totally a different story here.
Really painful to deal with. However, they tell me that currently there is no firmware for this player. And firmware shall not resolve this issue. This seems to be a "picker" issue and we shall replace the part and that should resolve the issue. It shall take 2-3 weeks to repair the player.
Thing is that they are not very helpful and willing to talk. Just keep saying bring it in and we shall resolve the issue, without giving out what exactly will be done.
They have no clue abt the firmware. They said firmware was used to mofidy code on previous players but not this one.
What do u guys say? I have about 15 days left on my warranty. Not sure what to do. Don't even want them to open the player and play around with it, if they dont know what to do.

Keep us posted if you hear anything and thanks for the replies, it does look like a GEFEN problem. I will keep the thread updated.
Caboman




Originally posted by rwestley
I agree it is a probably HDMI/HDCP compatibility problem with the 97S. I have a swithch from Pacific Cable and have the same problem. It will works with everything but the 97S. I called Pacific Cable and I have received no answer.

I wonder if the new firmware will make any difference?

mallu2u,

Either find another *authorized* service center or take it in to the current one. The person answering the phone is probably clueless and doesn't do the repairs. In any event, take it in before the warranty runs out, even if they hack it up you will have recourse w/Panasonic.

I'm on day 90 of the labor warranty. I have no choice but to take it in today.

Paul

mallu2u,

Here's an excerpt from an email I received from Panasonic Canada in reply to my inquiry for a fix for "macroblocking and digital noise".

"We have just received confirmation that the firmware upgrade to version 85E536 for model DVD-S97S was tested and was successful."

Despite this, the service center you spoke with may very well be correct and firmware will not correct the macroblocking issue, we'll have to wait for more anecdotal evidence and objective testing to confirm any of this.

It may actually turn out that Panasonic is simply testing their powers of persausion and in the ever continuing efforts to better serve the customer they are essentially testing our gullibility.

As mentioned many times register your complaint with Panasonic before your warranty runs out or at least send a precise email to their customer service dept with "read receipt" outlining the issues you are having that require a fix. This may give you warranty recourse should a fix become available after your warranty expires.

Here's what I composed to include with the player when taking it in. Canada phone numbers have been included just in case USA servicers run into a problem with Panasonic USA service consultants:


Customer: <name, address, phone>

Environment: Panasonic DVD-S97 using <cable, display, resolution>

Problem: When using the HDMI connection to the display. Random video noise (blocks) is apparent in dark scenes and bright scenes composed of solid colors. Black and white material does not display as black and white but rather black, white, with random shades of light colored pink. The problem has become to known as “macroblocking” or “macroblock enhance”. It is not a problem with the display, cable, or DVD material. The problem has its roots in the Genesis Microchip FLI-23## family of deinterlacing solutions. This Panasonic player uses the FLI-2310. Other DVD players with HDMI, but not using the FLI-23## do not have this problem.

Action: Have written Genesis Microchip and Panasonic numerous times with no response and no resolution. A couple of weeks ago it was revealed that a firmware update was available from Panasonic Japan that significantly reduced the problem. That firmware is 85E536. Subsequently, the fix became available to Panasonic Canada last week, with several owners reporting a quick, easy, firmware update with excellent results. The firmware version is still 85E536. Contact with Panasonic USA has been frustrating with no acknowledgement of the firmware update and misinformation.

Useful phone numbers for Canada:
CANADA customers/owners : 1- 905-624-5505
CANADA customers/owners : British Columbia Service Facility : 1-604-278-4211

Next: It is desired to have the submitted Panasonic DVD-S97 updated with the firmware 85E536 (or later version) to correct the video defects described above.

Paul