RGB colorspace crushes blacks and is not recommended for HDMI.

RGB looks great on my set, better than the others, i switched back-and-forth on a bunch of different material, no crushing noticed with avia either. Like Einstein said "It's all relative baby!" And who's "recommendation" is this yer pushin? whar's the proof mein friend? Ah well, can't we all just get along?

Mike

RGB crushes blacks over HDMI? Maybe that's why I thought I saw a reduction in macroblocking trying that setting (I think). Man, I hate dvd players, I really do.

Jim/smithsonga - when I calibrate I try to use the display settings as much as possibe, but I try the player settings (if available) in different configurations to see what gets me the best results.

That said, I make different "user" calibration settings for the different players - the calibration from from player to another is different for me.

RGB and the "Enhanced" setting crushes blacks on HDMI, The "Standard" setting does not. "Enhanced" and "Standard" only apply to the RGB setting they have no effect on 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 settings. I am not sure but I think RGB is limited to 8bit per component colour, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 output 10bit per component colour.

RGB crushes blacks over HDMI? Maybe that's why I thought I saw a reduction in macroblocking trying that setting (I think). Man, I hate dvd players, I really do.

Actually, jonnyozero3, you posted in the Denon 1920 thread that you thought you saw less MB on the 1920 when changing from RGB colorspace to YPbPr, which was the same result that I noted.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6024646#post6024646

RGB colorspace is forced when you are going HDMI to DVI, but YPbPr is recommended when going HDMI to HDMI.

Actually, jonnyozero3, you posted in the Denon 1920 thread that you thought you saw less MB on the 1920 when changing from RGB colorspace to YPbPr, which was the same result that I noted.

:o

Doh, no more posting for me until I've had breakfast. Hehe. Thanks for the catch - I confused myself, but you are correct: I saw a reduction using the YPbPr setting, not RGB. Don't know what I was thinking.

I just hate seeing MB at all :mad:

I want to up my price range for a DVD player to get rid of the MB, but then I don't get good performance on my Video (animation, TV) dvds. Unless, it's true those are actually mastered as Film productions....groan.

Is anyone else just starting to hate DVD players?

Ok, each time I start up my S97 player, I have to go to display setting, picture and change the setting from Cinema to User....it keeps defaulting back to Cinema.

Why is that?

Jim

I just noticed that I too kept loosing my settings. I'm pretty sure this is because I've got the power cable from the DVD player plugged into the back of my reciever and when it powers down it cuts power to the DVD player. I'm going to change plugs and hopefully I keep my settings.

Is that what you're doing as well?

right now it is not.....I do plan on doing that however....I turn the player off manually right now....if that was the problem I would use a macro on my remote to turn it off without losing power, but that doesnt seem to be the issue.

ANyone else think that "WELCOME TO DVD WORLD" is the corniest most retarded use of the display? I would love to be able to disable that. after i told my wife how great the player is and what it does for the display, My wife laughed her a$$ off and said it seemed like somthing a kids toy would say. I tend to agree with her.
I love the player, but it is hard to take seriously when it says that at turn on. I have come to accept it, but at the first chance I would rather be able to program it.

"BEST DVD PLAYER ON EARTH" would be a much better choice. even if it IS a stretch.

Mike

I agree - I couldn't believe my eyes when that text popped up. I thought maybe mine was a fluke or something. I have never seen something so silly. Just weird. Maybe in japanese it's something more impressive like, "BE EMBRACED BY THE WORLDLY POWER OF DVD!"

I think that's a standard Panasonic thing. My RP91 has the same startup message. I don't know how far back that message goes. It's hokey to say the least.

Since it says "Bye" when you shut it off, they could have just said "Welcome" when you turn it on.

Any update on the Mits DLP audio popping issue? I just got this player and everytime I go to the menu, stop or play, I hear a little pop. It's not the end of the world, but it is so annoying its grounds enough to return.

Firmware is L087 86H362.

After more use, the audio popping via HDMI is horrible on my Mits 52525.

Just popped in the Simpsons S6 and during the whole episode you hear these low volume pops the whole time, so distracting that this alone is enough reason to return it.

I'm going to see if I can turn off the audio via HDMI and use analog audio and see if it works. If it doesn't, I'll be returning this ASAP.

After more use, the audio popping via HDMI is horrible on my Mits 52525.

Just popped in the Simpsons S6 and during the whole episode you hear these low volume pops the whole time, so distracting that this alone is enough reason to return it.

I'm going to see if I can turn off the audio via HDMI and use analog audio and see if it works. If it doesn't, I'll be returning this ASAP.

I still have this with my Mits / S97 combination and use component as a result. I was not able to use analog audio with the HDMI input even with HDMI audio disabled. It appears that just having the HDMI cable attached disables analog audio. I posted about this several times on a few forums and, other than you, have only found one other person with this issue. Not sure if this is a defect in the Mits or S97 or not. I had my chassis replaced, which supposedly has all the audio hardware and firmware and this did not solve the problem. As a question, are you going directly from the S97 to the Mits or via a receiver of some kind? I am going directly from the S97 and hope that when I eventually buy an HDMI switching reciever this will solve the problem.

My firmware is the old 528. On the Mits it is the .04. What firmware is your Mits?

Just bought an s-97 for a second set up that will be used in a yet to be determined location (probably bedroom)with an Infocus 4805.

Nice player ....especially for the price :)

Kris Deering borrowed my new build S97 and loaded the new 362 firmware. He told me he found no difference with the old build and 540 firmware that he tested for the Benchmark. There will not ne a new report, just an addendum to the the existing S97 report noting his findings.

This may have been covered earlier in this thread but can't find anything, so here I go....I have the Sanyo Z2 with a new S97S I bought from Vanns recently. So far I really love the picture quality over component 480p or using HDMI at 720p or 1080i. What I've noticed is that when watching over HDMI at 720p I am getting a small black boarder all the way around the entire perimeter of the screen, almost like it is slightly cropped? Any thoughts?

This may have been covered earlier in this thread but can't find anything, so here I go....I have the Sanyo Z2 with a new S97S I bought from Vanns recently. So far I really love the picture quality over component 480p or using HDMI at 720p or 1080i. What I've noticed is that when watching over HDMI at 720p I am getting a small black boarder all the way around the entire perimeter of the screen, almost like it is slightly cropped? Any thoughts?

My first thought is that you didn't choose projector during the setup.

Actually it is on LCD Projector setting like it should be...There have been others mention this problem on other threads, just curious of the reason. It only happens when watching over HDMI. I will have to do some more testing, it appears to be only 1.85 material, when watching 2.35 it does not appear to be present.

Because I guess the engineers at Panasonic counted on most people watching this on a tv with the standard 5% overscan and the projector has none. Same reason I don't run my player at 720p on my projector.

I thought I read there was a firmware upgrade for this....or at least one on the way in the Firmware thread so you might want to check.

I noticed this while trying out the s97 on both my Infocus 4805 and my Optoma h-78dc3 also.

Well I've had my Panny s97 for a while and generally have been very happy with it. However lately macroblocking has gotten worse on my Sammy DLP. I am running firmware v. 541 (HDMI to HDMI at 720p) and just seem to notice it more than ever before.

Well yesterday I had my Samsung ISF'd by Eliab Alvarez who spent more than 4 hours precisely calibrating my display and all of my components. While I am extremely happy w/ the results on my HD STB, the imperfections in the S97's PQ are quite noticeable. The image is very noisy, which to me looks like macroblocking, but it could be some other artifact. In fact, Eliab said he's had similar PQ issues with all 4 S97's that he's calibrated in the past few weeks (on a variety of displays). He actually urged me to get the Oppo and said he's had much better results w/ that player.

Here are my current S97 settings:

1) HDMI Colorspace set to RGB; previously I had it at YCbCr 4:4:4

2) Changed contrast from -1 to -5. Using the DVE reverse gray ramps test pattern -5 provided the best dynamic range and produced a nice smooth gradation of both white and black

3) Brightness left at +1; all other picture controls were kept at 0

4) Left resolution at 720p as it clearly had less noise than 1080i on the S&W motion pattern

So not sure what to do. The s97 really hasn't benn looking good on my display lately. I see this noisy artifact on almost every movie I've watched (whether or not it is in fact MB is another story). LOTR ROTK for example has the artifact on many different scenes (Ch 33 and 45 are two examples) and I don't remember seeing that before. I can't imagine that having the display ISF'd wouldn't have helped matters - most likely it's just magnifying some of the S97's short comings.

Eric

I think what you are experiencing is unique to your setup Eric. Except for some slight pink noise and perhaps slightly better resolution I thought v541 was a non-event. I use a 110" by 56" Vutec silverstar which reveals any artifact or video degradation . I haven't seen very much macroblocking and have actually shut off the scaler in the projector because the image seems better using th s-97 scaler. I haven't tested the colourspace settings with v541 but it looks pretty much the same at 4:4:4. As for -5 on contrast, it looks better at -1.

Nevertheless your player and display don't seem to be interacting well. I doubt its a firmware issue. As much as I think the s97 is an outstanding dvd player for my system, if I were you I would try to audition other players that may be more compatible with your Samsung. I have an LG plasma as well that performs very differently depending on the source input. At first I thought it was the display then the player before finally concluding that there was not anything wrong with either and it was the combination of the two that was less than optimal

Well I've had my Panny s97 for a while and generally have been very happy with it. However lately macroblocking has gotten worse on my Sammy DLP. I am running firmware v. 541 (HDMI to HDMI at 720p) and just seem to notice it more than ever before.

Well yesterday I had my Samsung ISF'd Eliab Alvarez and now macroblocking is really bad. Eliab said he's had calibration issues with all 4 S97's that he's calibrated in the past few weeks (on a variety of displays). He actually urged me to get the Oppo and said he's had much better results w/ them.

A few changes that Eliab made to my S97 settings which maybe could be causing the increased MB?:

1) Changed HDMI Colorspace to RGB from YCbCr 4:4:4. Eliab even consulted w/ his partner Dave and both agreed RGB is the right setting

2) Changed contrast from -1 to -5. He was using the DVE reverse gray ramps test pattern and thought -5 provided the best dynamic range of the settings

3) Brightness he kept at +1; all other picture controls were kept at 0

4) Left resolution at 720p as it clearly looked had less noise than 1080i on one of the motion patterns (forgot the name of it).

So not sure what to do. The s97 really doesn't look good on my display anymore. Almost every movie I've watched shows MB. LOTR ROTK for example has MB on many different scenes (Ch 33 and 45 are two examples) and I don't remember seeing that before. Maybe the calibration made my display extra sensitive to MB but I had been noticing it more lately anyway.

Any thoughts on why MB would appear worse now than ever before; do any of my settings up above suggest any problems?

Thanks
Eric

Have you tried HDMI at 480p? Also, have you tried component via 480i or 480p just to try it? If you are still seeing artifacts using 480i via component then what you seeing is not MB and is something else like banding. At first I thought I had MB issues on my Mits DLP but now believe banding to be the issue.

So do you guys feel the need to upgrade the firmware from 540 to 541? I have this puppy connected to my Sony XBR 60'' RP LCD TV.

My brand new 97s from J&R, July 2005 build, has firmware 362 installed. It looks great at 480P component into my HLP 6163W as I await my digital board swap to fix my broken HDMI port.

There are a heck of a lot of settings on this unit, thanks for the help in this thread

So do you guys feel the need to upgrade the firmware from 540 to 541? I have this puppy connected to my Sony XBR 60'' RP LCD TV.

In a word... NO. Having lived with it now since its release I actually think it is a downtick now because of the slightly increased pink tint which is really only noticeable in black and white movies if you look for it. On the plus side I noticed marginally less edge enhancement and possibly better resolution. Initially I recommended the upgrade but if I could go back to 540 I would just because of the pink tint issue. Another poster reported that Kris Deering in his review of this firmware so no improvement.

thanks for the reply Jakeman. I shall stick to 540 then.

I think what you are experiencing is unique to your setup Eric. Except for some slight pink noise and perhaps slightly better resolution I thought v541 was a non-event. I use a 110" by 56" Vutec silverstar which reveals any artifact or video degradation . I haven't seen very much macroblocking and have actually shut off the scaler in the projector because the image seems better using th s-97 scaler. I haven't tested the colourspace settings with v541 but it looks pretty much the same at 4:4:4. As for -5 on contrast, it looks better at -1.

Nevertheless your player and display don't seem to be interacting well. I doubt its a firmware issue.

I agree that it could just be the interaction of the display and the player. Although I never really had major problems before.

I did do some fiddling of the colorspace and brightness and contrast settings using the DVE test patterns and the way Eliab calibrated the S97 definitely yields the best results. In the test patterns, you have a nice smooth gradation of both whites and blacks w/ RGB color space, brightness at +1 and contrast at -5. If I change the colorspace to YCbCr 4:4:4, I need to adjust the birghtness to +8 in order to pass blacker than black properly - seems crazy but that's definitely the setting (contrast is still at -5). I guess test patterns aren't everything and it's really the DVD material that I plan to watch that should look good so I need to compare YCbCr to RGB for that but it's looking more and more like this combo won't work.

As far as the firmware upgrade "causing" my problems, I don't know what to think. Before I had the set ISF'd, I noticed MB was much more prevalent then ever before. When I first got the player (528) I never noticed it. So either I've become a much more critical observer or it's gotten worse with the firmware upgrades. Again, this may only apply to my setup.

Even though the Oppo may not technically be better in terms of MB, it's possible that it will just interact better w/ my setup.

EricScott,

Test patterns are most important because they bound the limits of what can be in the DVD video. If you just make things look good on few scenes of a few DVD's then its very likely other DVD's will have problems.

If you get the test patterns right then all DVD's should look good (or as they should) unless the author messed up.

Ken

Well after a few hours of comparing test patterns as well as selected film content, my conclusion is that the settings Eliab used on the S97 did in fact yield the best results - at 720p, RGB looks better than YCbCr 4:4:4. I basically programmed the two sets of picture settings into User1 and User2 of the AV Enhancer and flipped back and forth between RGB and YCbCr on selected scenes (unfortunately the AV Enhancer does not remember the colorspace setting so you have to toggle two things each time).

Those settings were:
RGB: Brightness: +1; Contrast: -5
YCbCr 4:4:4: Brightness +8; Contrast: -5

One of the scenes I focused on was Ch 2 (about 2:30 into the movie) of Lost in Translation when Bill Murray is being greeted in the hotel lobby. On both RGB and YCbCr there is some macroblocking (blurry, noisy color) on the walls in the background - this is a perfect example of the type of "noise" that I am seeing a lot that I believe is MB; if it's not in fact MB, then whatever it is, I see a lot of it. But it's noticeably better on RGB than YCbCr. Also looked at the space shuttle scenes (Title 1; Ch 5) in the beginning of DVE and again prefer RGB.

The next thing I tested was 480p vs. 720p for both RGB and YCbCr. Here the distinction between RGB and YCbCr was less noticeable so I left it at RGB (the way it was calibrated). In terms of 480p vs. 720p, I would say that 480p looks slightly less noisy (the L.I.T. scene is a good example) but a little less sharp than 720p. The space shuttle scenes were a toss-up. When I ran the Snell & Wilcox motion patterns on DVE, 720p looked less noisy then both 480p and 1080i. So for the time being I'm sticking w/ 720p.

And after all of that, I'm back to the same place I was earlier - I'm not happy w/ the current peformance of the S97 with my setup, which I can only conclude is the "fault" of the S97 as my display has been precisely calibrated and my HD STB looks incredible. Don't want to discourage others as I've been very happy w/ the S97 up until this point.

Any other suggestions for what I can do to improve the PQ would be appreciated.

i just got this dvd player, but didnt hook it up yet. i have a question though. if i use an hdmi cable for dvd viewing, but my surround sound receiver doesnt have and hdmi port, can i get a surround sound output to come out of the back of the tv, (sony a10), that splits the two elements?

Impronto,

Amps with HDMI inputs are tough to find but I'm sure that they will become more common in the next model year.

I just hook up the HDMI directly to my TV and then use a digital cable or optical cable from the S97 to one of the inputs of my home theater amplifier and it works well. The remote for the S97 controls the volume on the amp (I think I had to enter a code to make it do that, but it was in the manual).

You could use the TV's audio out but I find that unless you have a fixed audio level to send to the amp it doesn't work well. If you use the TV's volume control to send an amplified soundtrack to the inputs of your surround sound receiver or amplifier and then amplify it again you will either get crappy sound or blow something up.

I don't know what your Sony has for connections but if your S97 is close to your receiver then hooking up the digital cable or optical cable is a simple solution.

Mike

"One of the scenes I focused on was Ch 2 (about 2:30 into the movie) of Lost in Translation when Bill Murray is being greeted in the hotel lobby. On both RGB and YCbCr there is some macroblocking (blurry, noisy color) on the walls in the background - this is a perfect example of the type of "noise" that I am seeing a lot that I believe is MB; if it's not in fact MB, then whatever it is, I see a lot of it. But it's noticeably better on RGB than YCbCr. Also looked at the space shuttle scenes (Title 1; Ch 5) in the beginning of DVE and again prefer RGB."


I am not so sure this is actually MB. I think I know exactly the artifact you describe - it occurs on scenes where there is a large, monochromatic area with subtle variations in shading, for example, a painted wall in the background. On my set, the shading can be blocky in shape, with the blocks usually having odd green shading. I thought this was MB as well until I tried the S97 on 480i via component. This artifact still existed. I've come to believe this is a problem with the grayscale on the TV and not a problem with the S97 but cannot say this for sure. I have not investigated this on the AVS forum as to how to fix this but I would imagine ISF calibration of the set (to get the grayscale optimized) would help. This is something I've been meaning to research on the forum but have not done so yet.

I am not so sure this is actually MB. I think I know exactly the artifact you describe - it occurs on scenes where there is a large, monochromatic area with subtle variations in shading, for example, a painted wall in the background. On my set, the shading can be blocky in shape, with the blocks usually having odd green shading. I thought this was MB as well until I tried the S97 on 480i via component. This artifact still existed. I've come to believe this is a problem with the grayscale on the TV and not a problem with the S97 but cannot say this for sure. I have not investigated this on the AVS forum as to how to fix this but I would imagine ISF calibration of the set (to get the grayscale optimized) would help. This is something I've been meaning to research on the forum but have not done so yet.

Interesting. Well if that is not MB, then it's quite possible that what I have been describing as MB isn't in fact MB. I see this artifact a lot and whatever it is, it's very annoying. As you mentioned, it mainly occurs on painted walls in the background but I find it very distracting. I did notice that in this particular scene, the artifact was less noticeable (the walls look smoother) at 480p than 720p.

Grayscale on my display is now about as close to perfect as it can get. Eliab was able to precisely calibrate the primaries and secondaries to their exact coordinates and color temperature. So I can't imagine that the grayscale on my display would make the problem worse - I would think it would improve it.

Before Eliab did any calibration, we were running through the DVE test patterns and he pointed out to me, how "noisy" the picture was. In the black bars on the pluge pattern (Title 12, Ch 2), there is a ton of graininess in the black bars. When watching the space shuttle sequences you can see it in the blue sky background as well as on the space shuttle itself.

So whatever this "noise" that I'm seeing is, whether it in fact is MB or not, this is what I'm concerned about.

It is deffinately Macroblock...Odd shaded digital looking blocks that go from like green to yellow to red. Totally annoying I notice it not that often....I find in 480p the MB is almost gone....watch Chapter 4 of Episode 2...Look at the red walls on 1080i...then switch to 480p and check out the red walls....also make sure you recalibrate if you move the resolution around i noticed going from 480p to 1080i the brightness results are different on AVIA...I wouild only recalibrate though if I was moving from 720p to 480p like I did...

It is deffinately Macroblock...Odd shaded digital looking blocks that go from like green to yellow to red. Totally annoying I notice it not that often....I find in 480p the MB is almost gone....watch Chapter 4 of Episode 2...Look at the red walls on 1080i...then switch to 480p and check out the red walls....also make sure you recalibrate if you move the resolution around i noticed going from 480p to 1080i the brightness results are different on AVIA...I wouild only recalibrate though if I was moving from 720p to 480p like I did...

When I was doing my 720p vs. 480p tests I reran the test patterns and found that on a given color space setting, the picture controls did not need to be adjusted. In other words, for RGB, brightness of +1 and contrast of -5 still hold.

I figured this was macroblocking. But again, whatever it is, I'm seeing a lot of it and I don't enjoy it :)

Interesting. Well if that is not MB, then it's quite possible that what I have been describing as MB isn't in fact MB (although Eliab referred to it as MB when he was calibrating my display). I see this artifact a lot and whatever it is, it's very annoying. As you mentioned, it mainly occurs on painted walls in the background but I find it very distracting. I did notice that in this particular scene, the artifact was less noticeable (the walls look smoother) at 480p than 720p.




Again, check it at 480i as this takes the Faroujda chip out of the picture. Everything that I've seen posted indicates that the F-chip is the cause of the MB, so it should not occur with the chip taken out. It follows that any artifacts in 480i are not MB (the other possibility being that the reports are wrong and that the S97 can macroblock in 480i but this would surprise me given the extensive testing posters on this board have done). My impression is is that what you describe is so called "banding".

Find a scene with bad artifacts and pause the picture. Hook up your S97 via component and just toggle the 480p / 480i setting. In my case, I expected the "MB" to disappear when changing to 480i, but this did not happen. The PQ also got a lot worse, so I'm not actually advocating use of 480i even if this artifact was fixed as a result. I'd be curious to see what happens on your set trying the same thing.

I see this artifact quite a bit myself but don't know what to do about it. As you say, it can be quite annoying.

Again, check it at 480i as this takes the Faroujda chip out of the picture. Everything that I've seen posted indicates that the F-chip is the cause of the MB, so it should not occur with the chip taken out. It follows that any artifacts in 480i are not MB (the other possibility being that the reports are wrong and that the S97 can macroblock in 480i but this would surprise me given the extensive testing posters on this board have done). My impression is is that what you describe is so called "banding".


Ok. So I hooked up component and recalibrated w/ DVE (I'm really starting to appreciate the AV Enhancer which lets you store 3 sets of picture settings) - had to bump brightness up to +10!!! to pass BTB and left contrast at -5 - definitely not as smooth on the reverse gray ramps as my calibrated RGB settings.

I tried out the Lost in Translation scene and you can definitely still see the same artifact. However, since the resolution isn't nearly as good (I would say the PQ is way worse over component than HDMI overall on my display) the effect of the noisy walls is muted somewhat, actually to a much more acceptable level. But I think this is just a result of an overall "blurrier" image.

I also compared the space shuttle scenes on DVE and one really good scene for others to look at is at 2:33 on title 1 (within ch 5) when they pan out from the space shuttle and you see a clock in the lower right corner - I see pretty bad pink blocking on the right side of the screen. Noticed this w/ HDMI 720p but I would say it's actually worse with component 480i. Otherwise, I would say the noise in these scenes is worse over HDMI than component, but again probably b/c the picture is sharper.

So I guess this proves that what I'm seeing is NOT macroblocking and believe it or not, this makes me feel better - now I'm hoping that the Oppo will in fact provide a cleaner picture on my setup since the Faroudja chip is not the culprit here.

If others wouldn't mind checking out the shuttle/clock scene and letting me know if you see the pinkish blocking that would be helpful.

Thanks for all of the responses!

----------------------------------

One thing to add, now that I think about it - my Samsung display has the Faroudja chip as well, so it's possible that I'm seeing macroblocking from the Samsung's Faroudja chip which kicks in when you pass it a 480i signal. I like the original theory though :)

One thing to add, now that I think about it - my Samsung display has the Faroudja chip as well, so it's possible that I'm seeing macroblocking from the Samsung's Faroudja chip which kicks in when you pass it a 480i signal. I like the original theory though :)

Now that is worth mentioning. I believe my Mits DLP also has an F2310 (not confirmed) which would explain why I am seeing this artifact via component and 480i. As you said, my experience is that at 480i the artifact is still visible but somewhat less so. I had not stopped to think that this could be MB in the TV as opposed to "banding". It would be good to hear from some LCD or CRT owners on this as both you and I likely have a 2310 in the TV, adding another variable.

Also of interest is I note you used DVE to set up the setting in your DVD player as opposed to changing the settings on your TV. For me, I used DVE just to get BTB to pass and made all other changes (tint, color, etc) to the TV, leaving the DVD player settings at the default settings. It appears that my approach vs your had the same result though using 480i - visible artifacts that were less pronounced but also a significant PQ reduction.

Why not demo a SI504 based or other non faroudja based player?

Now that is worth mentioning. I believe my Mits DLP also has an F2310 (not confirmed) which would explain why I am seeing this artifact via component and 480i. As you said, my experience is that at 480i the artifact is still visible but somewhat less so. I had not stopped to think that this could be MB in the TV as opposed to "banding". It would be good to hear from some LCD or CRT owners on this as both you and I likely have a 2310 in the TV, adding another variable.

On the Samsung, there is a "film mode" option if you are passing a 480i signal. I always assumed this enabled/disabled DCDi but when I tried toggling the setting when passing 480i over component from the S97 I didn't notice any change - artifacts looked the same either way. So not sure what that means exactly. Hoping the theory of this noise not being related to Faroudja is the answer though.


Also of interest is I note you used DVE to set up the setting in your DVD player as opposed to changing the settings on your TV. For me, I used DVE just to get BTB to pass and made all other changes (tint, color, etc) to the TV, leaving the DVD player settings at the default settings. It appears that my approach vs your had the same result though using 480i - visible artifacts that were less pronounced but also a significant PQ reduction.

There are two reasons why I am tweaking the settings on the player and not the display:

1) No matter how high I set the brightness on the display, if I don't adjust the brightness on the S97 to the proper level to pass BTB, I'll never be able to see BTB. So I simply adjust the brightness on the S97.

2) Eliab perfectly calibrated each individual input in both the service menu and user menu independent of the source connected to it. This way I won't mess up his settings. This also will allow me to connect the Oppo when I receive it, and as long as I setup the player properly, the rest of the ISF calibration should hold.

When I get chance this weekend I'll hook up my old non-progressive scan Toshiba DVD player and see if this causes the artifact on the TV. If it does, we can rule out the S97 as the cause and perhaps it is DLP specific.

Hello all,

I have seen the issues that have been mentioned with this DVD player on a Sony Qualia 006, Mitsubishi WD-52725, Samsung HL-P5663 & 5063 all within the last 10 days. This is the only DVD player that I've ever encountered that has introduced the level of "noise" that has been spoken about here. Another possibility I suppose is that they could have all been part of a bad patch of players...I really don't know. But the issues are painfully obvious.

I'll be looking at my HL-R5078 & Oppo combo within the next couple of days and report back my comparison findings.

Eliab

What is the difference between the RGB, YCbPr 4:2:2, & YCbPr 4:4:4 settings in the picture menu? Which is the preferred output mode. I am using the S97 with a Panasonic TH-42PD50U Plasma, running 480p via HDMI. Thanks for your help.

ExtremePCs, I think RGB is limited to 8bit colour and YCbPr uses 10bit colour processing so if you have HDMI use one of the YCbPr settings. RGB is meant for DVI connections.

ExtremePCs, I think RGB is limited to 8bit colour and YCbPr uses 10bit colour processing so if you have HDMI use one of the YCbPr settings. RGB is meant for DVI connections.

However you really should try out both settings and see which you prefer. I find that on my display (Samsung DLP), YCbCr 4:4:4 produces a slightly noiser picture than RGB.

I remember reading in another thread that the HDMI spec limits 4:4:4 to 8bit colour processing but at a higher colour depth and 4:2:2 can technically support up to 12bit colour processing but at a lower colour depth than 4:4:4. The S97 is capable of 10bit colour processing so I assume thats only through the 4:2:2 setting.

Hello all,

I have seen the issues that have been mentioned with this DVD player on a Sony Qualia 006, Mitsubishi WD-52725, Samsung HL-P5663 & 5063 all within the last 10 days. This is the only DVD player that I've ever encountered that has introduced the level of "noise" that has been spoken about here. Another possibility I suppose is that they could have all been part of a bad patch of players...I really don't know. But the issues are painfully obvious.

I'll be looking at my HL-R5078 & Oppo combo within the next couple of days and report back my comparison findings.

Eliab

Eliab, I have a November 2004 build date player v541 running through a sim2 ht300e dlp projector and I do not see this noise problem. I have the player set at the -1/+1 cont/brightness level . Can you check build dates and firmware version on those players?

Eliab, I have a November 2004 build date player v541 running through a sim2 ht300e dlp projector and I do not see this noise problem. I have the player set at the -1/+1 cont/brightness level . Can you check build dates and firmware version on those players?

One of the players Eliab is describing is mine. It has a build date of Sept 2004 and is running v. 541. It is being used with a Sammy HLP5063 over HDMI/HDMI.

Eric do you have 3d-nr and dnr set to +1 and mpeg set to 0? I am going to replicate your new settings on my player later tonight to see if there is any improvement. There is always the possibility it is firmware 541 related.

Eric do you have 3d-nr and dnr set to +1 and mpeg set to 0? I am going to replicate your new settings on my player later tonight to see if there is any improvement. There is always the possibility it is firmware 541 related.

Nope. Brightness at +1, contrast at -5 and everything else at 0. HDMI color space set to RGB.

Well I just reviewed all my settings again with DVE and they are fine. I actually raised contrast to 0 from -1. Brightness at +1, 3d-nr and dnr set to +1 , HDMI at 4:2:2 is better for me than RGB and a tough call vs 4:4:4. Contrast at -5 just doesn't look right for whites. Image is excellent. I don't want to dispute the findings of your calibrator and its not a firmware problem. Wish I could be more helpful but I doubt it is the player, at least not my build.

Well I just reviewed all my settings again with DVE and they are fine. I actually raised contrast to 0 from -1. Brightness at +1, 3d-nr and dnr set to +1 , HDMI at 4:2:2 is better for me than RGB and a tough call vs 4:4:4. Contrast at -5 just doesn't look right for whites. Image is excellent. I don't want to dispute the findings of your calibrator and its not a firmware problem. Wish I could be more helpful but I doubt it is the player, at least not my build.

I don't think it is the player per se either. I think it's the interaction of the player w/ my display that is causing issues.

At first when we set the contrast to -5 I was surprised but it clearly looks like the right setting on my display - the reverse gray ramps show an extremely uniform and consistent gradation of both blacks and whites. I had never been able to get the player to look anywhere near as good on the test patterns. But there is also a ton of noise on the test patterns. If you get close to the screen, you can see visible noise in the black bars of the pluge pattern - and this was present both before and after calibration.

As far as the RGB vs YCbCr settings, I learned today that my Samsung does all of it's processing using an 8 bit RGB signal. The conversion of 10 or 12 bit YCbCr to RGB occurs in the HDMI receiver before anything else is done. So if the S97 does a better job with the YCbCr to RGB conversion than the Samsung's HDMI receiver then the RGB setting will yield better results. Obviously this is display dependent.

I've seen noise in dvd images with upconverting players made in china. it was due to the builders not twisting the power pigtail connector (IDE type DVD drive). I wonder if panny got a batch of players that had an issue like this. My old chinese-clone sigma-based player showed horrific noise on a third of the screen. simply twisting the pigtail wires complete eliminated the issue. Has anyone with this noise problem opened up the case to see what's what?

jeff

Just got my S97s yesterday and have been reading the manual. I'm very interested in also using it as a DVD-Audio player and was surprised to find in the manual that you have to hook it up with 5.1 analog/rca connection to get the 5.1 surround sound. It seems for DVD-Audio that optical just gives PCM Stereo. Does anybody know if that is true?

Does anybody use this for DVD-Audio and if so do they have it connected by both analog 5.1 and optical to their a/v receiver and how does that work out?

Just got my S97s yesterday and have been reading the manual. I'm very interested in also using it as a DVD-Audio player and was surprised to find in the manual that you have to hook it up with 5.1 analog/rca connection to get the 5.1 surround sound. It seems for DVD-Audio that optical just gives PCM Stereo. Does anybody know if that is true?

Does anybody use this for DVD-Audio and if so do they have it connected by both analog 5.1 and optical to their a/v receiver and how does that work out?

DVD-Audio (and SACD) require the use of the analog 5.1 outputs to produce 5.1 surround sound. That's an inherent feature of DVD-Audio and not specific to the S97. I have my S97 connected with both optical and analog audio outputs (the latter for DVD-Audio use only).

DVDA will not be conducted over the optical you have to use analog cables.

I don't have a HDMI 1.1 sound processor yet, but the S97 should output full-rez multi-channel DVD-Audio over HDMI as well.

Ken

DVD-Audio (and SACD) require the use of the analog 5.1 outputs to produce 5.1 surround sound. That's an inherent feature of DVD-Audio and not specific to the S97. I have my S97 connected with both optical and analog audio outputs (the latter for DVD-Audio use only).

S97 outputs multichannel DVD-Audio over HDMI. I have Yamaha RX-V4600 that supports HDMI 1.1 spec and listen to DVD-Audio that way. Just announced HDMI 1.2 spec now supports SACD. Coax or Tosling connection do not have enough bandwith to support multichannel DVD Audio or SACD.

I don't have a HDMI 1.1 sound processor yet, but the S97 should output full-rez multi-channel DVD-Audio over HDMI as well.

Ken


Yes, it does. No 480i over HDMI though :(

Need some help from S97 pros. I received my S97. Connected to my Optoma H76 (HDCP compliant) via the supplied HDMI and a DVI adapter(Monster from Best Buy, I was in a hurray). No picture via HDMI. The H76 doesn't even notice a signal. I attached via Svideo. I set the output to RGB, no go. The menus show * next to 480p, 720p and 1081i. The HDMI display says connected. Still no picture. I get a U-701 when I set the projector to DVI-YCbCr, but that seems reasonable since I do not have an HDMI device. The HDMI light and the 720p/1080i lights are lit.

Any ideas?
(moved from Firmware Thread)

I don't have a HDMI 1.1 sound processor yet, but the S97 should output full-rez multi-channel DVD-Audio over HDMI as well.

Ken
Over the last week I started a few threads trying to figure out whether my s77 (note not s97) can output DD & DTS over HDMI. I still haven't got a satisfactory answer. I'm connecting the s77 directly to a Sony 42WE655 LCD RPTV via HDMI. The audio signal is always PCM, regardless whether I set the S77 output to PCM or bitstream. And this is true when I play DD or DTS soundtracks on a disk.

My leading theory (with some evidence) is that HDMI connections are somewhat inteligent and there is handshaking going on. The TV only accepts PCM. So is it forcing the DVD player to only send PCM?

Ed

Well my Oppo arrived yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty impressed w/ the PQ. The artifacts I was seeing on the S97 (described above in Lost in Translation, DVE Nasa Montage, etc) are not present or are far less noticeable on the Oppo. It's defintiely not as slick a player as the S97 and is lacking some features (position memory, ability to show remaining time on the LED display w/o it appearing on the screen too, etc) but PQ wise it seems to be working better w/ my setup. Haven't had any lip sync issues yet either.

Will probably move my S97 to my Samsung LCD in the bedroom or sell it on ebay.

Well my Oppo arrived yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty impressed w/ the PQ. The artifacts I was seeing on the S97 (described above in Lost in Translation, DVE Nasa Montage, etc) are not present or are far less noticeable on the Oppo. It's defintiely not as slick a player as the S97 and is lacking some features (position memory, ability to show remaining time on the LED display w/o it appearing on the screen too, etc) but PQ wise it seems to be working better w/ my setup. Haven't had any lip sync issues yet either.

Will probably move my S97 to my Samsung LCD in the bedroom or sell it on ebay.

I hooked up my old Toshiba SD-2109 and checked a portion of Naqoyqatsi that showed these artifacts that we've been discussing. Using this old 480i player via component I could still see the artifacts.

I'll need to check other movies for repeatability but this would give some evidence that the issue is more related to our DLPs than to the S97. Your comments about the Oppo go against this theory though. I'll keep playing around and see. maybe I'll post this on the Mistu DLp thread and see if anyone there has anything to add

Well, I am not amused today....started to set up to watch a movie and my projector would not lock onto the HDMI signal...said Not Supported..and would cycle again trying to lock onto a signal.

I played with everything on the player...but finally the player came up with an error code of U70-3...which corresponded to a bad HDMI cable. STRANGE given it is a new cable.

Annoying too as my cable goes thru a conduit in the ceiling to my projector. ARGH.

Anyone else have a cable go bad or are these HDMI cables REALLY fragile?

Jim

FYI, I have the S97 outputting DD from HDMI to my PDP-5050HD, and the optical from the PDP-5050HD to my Pioneer receiver.

Jim,

The HDMI cable that came with my S97 player, finally went bad, after a *lot* of use switching between the S97 and Sony 975. There are a lot of thin wires in that HDMI bundle and I suspect that the break occurs at the molded connector after a lot of flexing.

Paul

Hey guys, I have a dilemma. I just got the s97 and I was all excited to hook it up to my week old Sharp 32" LCD and now I'm bummed. I believe my Sharp's HDMI in not HDCP compatible and therefore I am not offered upconverting over HDMI. So, I want to know if I'm missing out by being handicapped to 480p with this player? It doesn't upconvert over component, so I'm not sure which would be better-component or HDMI). I'm not sure if I can return the player, and I like the TV, not sure if I can get a better set at that price and the new Sharp's don't have DVI which I use for cable.

Anyone have an opinion about component vs HDMI? 'Secrets' tests did not mention upconverting, does that mean their tests were all at 480p? I think I'm at HDMI Video which scored the lowest in their test, I may have no choice but to go component and HDMI/Upconverting was the whole draw to this player. I'm really bummed :(

Take it back and get an Oppo it doesn't have HDCP. But first make absolutely sure the LCD isn't HDCP.

Kid Red,

Which model Sharp 32" LCD? I cannot recall a single HDMI equipped TV that *isn't* HDCP enabled.

The Panasonic is 480i/p over component and 480p/720p/1080i over HDMI. I had a Sharp LC-26D7U and the Panasonic's S97 HDMI worked just fine with it.

Try another cable. It also may be that the HDMI is faulty on either the display or DVD player. Have a look at the settings for the S97 in the first post of the thread and, as a start: Reset the player to factory defaults and then make the changes suggested in the first post.

Paul

If you dont mind a rookie Q from a wanna be audiophile, I am strongly considering on buying this DVD from the reviews I've found.

I currently have a Panasonic 42 PX50U, and am looking for 2 good speakers since it is impossible to accomodate a 5.1 system in my room.

When I do, do I connect the DVD from the optical component output to a receiver that from there goes to the speakers? How does it work exactly?

Thanks for your help!!!

Paul- It's the Sharp LCG5C3U that's exclusive to Costco. I'm using the HDMI cable that came with the Panny. It's stuck on 480p and I get no other options, just HDMI ON or OFF. I don't get any 720p or 1080i or any other display options. Then I read in the first post of this thread that upconverting is HDCP only so I assumed it was my Sharp. However, in a big Sharp thread it said the Costco one was HDCP compliant. I don't have another $100 HDMI cable to try, I'll try that reset option to see if that does anything. I'll also try component and see if the picture improves.

guitarman- That was my second choice but I went with the Panny because it had more reviews where it just eeked out against the Oppo. I have to decide what to do, return the TV or the DVD player.

Paul- OK, I just played with it a bit, it seems you need to go thru the DISPLAY menu system to get that option, I was mostly dealing with Set Up. So, I now have it set to 1080i!! So, my Sharp is HDCP compliant and I will now go watch some more and see if I can tweak the Faroudja green blacks some.

Kid Red,

Glad you got it working! Panasonic DVD players have, historically, a *lot* of settings through the "Display" button. The S97 is the most setting-laden DVD player I've ever seen. If you wish, have a look at the first post of the thread for some suggested settings, if you run into a problem with aspect ratio or other items.

Paul

Paul- Yea, I ran down the first post already, I notice you have different settings then Secrets mentioned (-1 contrast, +2 brightness) but so far it looks really good. I calibrated to the 480p setting, I'll probably have to go back and verify with 1080i to see what's best. Nice little unit.

Oh, one thing, the setup menu, it's cut off on the top and bottom, why? I also went with 4:3 aspect set to 1:00 zoom on my 16:9 set which is confusing but is accurate. Normal 16:9 is zoomed to 1:33 or something, but the bottom and top are cut off. So, when I zoom to 1:00 and the picture looks perfect, the TV hows that it's 4:3?


Thanks for your help :)

Hi, i just wanna hear if you can help me with a problem? My s97 has worked perfectly until now, the picture is kind of zoomed so you cant see some parts of the picture and the menus. I dont know what i have done to make it do this, i have tested to change the zoom and reset the whole player at the setup menu but i cant get it to be like it used to be. It worked perfectly before.
Can someone who knows the player better than me help me please?

/Peter

Hi, i just wanna hear if you can help me with a problem? My s97 has worked perfectly until now, the picture is kind of zoomed so you cant see some parts of the picture and the menus. I dont know what i have done to make it do this, i have tested to change the zoom and reset the whole player at the setup menu but i cant get it to be like it used to be. It worked perfectly before.
Can someone who knows the player better than me help me please?

/Peter
Is it possible that it's the TV that is zoomed and not the DVD player?

Ed

Well, im using a sanyo z3 projector, but sure thats possible. But i have tried to see if i have changed anything in the setup on the z3 to but i havent found any changes. Its really weird because i havent touched anything on it who could change the zoom settings.
I might have to reset the settings on the projector also.

Hey guys,

I've been looking at picking up a s97 after returning my s77 but I'm not sure which build date will be the most current firmware. Does it matter if I get a 2004 and firmware it or should I try to find a 2005 re-release version? I had originally picked up the s77 from Frys but they had some openbox/returned S97 at a discount. Should I avoid these s97 that are more than likely the original released models or should they be ok?

Most vendors aren't too keen on me opening the box just to look at the back of the player so any dates with the current firmware would be great...

JB

Paul- Yea, I ran down the first post already, I notice you have different settings then Secrets mentioned (-1 contrast, +2 brightness) but so far it looks really good. I calibrated to the 480p setting, I'll probably have to go back and verify with 1080i to see what's best. Nice little unit.

Oh, one thing, the setup menu, it's cut off on the top and bottom, why? I also went with 4:3 aspect set to 1:00 zoom on my 16:9 set which is confusing but is accurate. Normal 16:9 is zoomed to 1:33 or something, but the bottom and top are cut off. So, when I zoom to 1:00 and the picture looks perfect, the TV hows that it's 4:3?


Thanks for your help :)

Try setting 4:3 to auto and it should fix the problem.

Hey guys,

I've been looking at picking up a s97 after returning my s77 but I'm not sure which build date will be the most current firmware. Does it matter if I get a 2004 and firmware it or should I try to find a 2005 re-release version? I had originally picked up the s77 from Frys but they had some openbox/returned S97 at a discount. Should I avoid these s97 that are more than likely the original released models or should they be ok?

Most vendors aren't too keen on me opening the box just to look at the back of the player so any dates with the current firmware would be great...

JB

They should be fine. My brother just bought a Nov. 2004 build date with v528 which he just updated to v541 without any problems.

jakeman- thanks for the tip, I'll give that a shot.

Guys

I just had to replace a HDMI cable going from my S97 to my PE7700 projector. It would not sync with the DVD player and then the player gave a U70-3 code that said the cable was damaged.

Well, I got a replacement and tested it prior to running it thru the conduit and it worked, so I ran it thru the conduit etc...what a pain. Anyway, it plays fine now but I just noticed that when the DVD player was not playing, the same U70-3 error code popped up but turning the player off/on and playing a DVD, it was fine.

Anyone else see this Error code? I am sending back my old cable and they will test it and refund me if it is bad...my concern is it will not be bad and something is amiss with my player.

thx
Jim

Yes its a nuisance with the s-97 but harmless. I have to do the same thing occasionally and I think it has more to do with the display/player handshake. I suspect your old cable was OK.

Yes I also have this error show up all the time while running the player over a 30 foot monoprice HDMI cable. It's never had a misstep for picture or sound quality though, so it never bothered me. Everything is behind a closed door anyway, so not being able to see the time index does not bother me.

Anyone know the cheapest place online I can find this player?

hmmmm...mine is also the 30ft monoprice cable.

My first cable had a sync issue with the PE7700 projector. Projector kept saying the DVD HDMI signal was not supported, while this new cable has no such issues. Of course the U70-3 code came up for the first time while i was having these issues, never occurred to me that the message would be recurring.

Not sure why this particular monoprice cable was replaced with one with ferrite cores...made it even more fun to pull thru conduit.

Jim

Not sure why this particular monoprice cable was replaced with one with ferrite cores...made it even more fun to pull thru conduit.

Jim

When it comes to conduit...SIZE MATTERS!

Anyone know the cheapest place online I can find this player?
I don't know if it's the cheapest, but it is available for $259 from http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=319938&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

I've been looking at buying a new receiver and considering ones without HDMI. I've decided to only consider receivers with HDMI for use with the S97. Why? I thought my Sony upconverted all signals to 1080i; I just found out is does not! Only the 720p and 1080i signals are displayed at 1080i and these signals are only available via HDMI. Here is what I've learned: the Sony input-to-display resolutions are: 480i->480p with DRC/Progressive; 480i->480p with DRC/Cinemotion; 480i->960i with DRC/Interlaced; 480p->480p; 720p->1080i; 1080i->1080i; and I also understand that only the 1080i signal bypasses the DRC circuitry, so it has the least amount of processing and should offer the best signal to the screen. I also believe that the S97 converts the 480i to 480p before upconverting to 720p or 1080i; so if use 720p, the conversions from the DVD to the Sony are: 480i->480p->720p->1080i. Conclusion, with the Sony KV-34HS420, and probably all other Sony CRTs, the best output from the S97 should be when it is set to output through the HDMI at 1080i; the next best should be HDMI/720p or Component/480i (if macroblocking is an issue through HDMI). Personally, I haven't noticed any difference between any of these settings and I've currently set my output to HDMI/1080i (note the S97 Component Video Out signal will be 480i which I still have connected to the KV-34HS420 HD/DVD In 5 terminal to compare the HDMI/Component signals; that is, 1080i/960i on screen).

I don't know if it's the cheapest, but it is available for $259 from http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=319938&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

That's where I picked mine up last week. No problems for me.

Has anyone noticed their DVD-S97 running hot? My S97 really heats up by the end of one movie, to where the DVD itself is very warm to the touch when I take it out, and also the right half of the top of the player is very warm, almost hot. Just wondering if this is normal. I've had my S97 since August 1st of this year, so the 30 day trial is over and can't return. And I love this player too, it's the best DVD player I've had so far.

Rick

I am not happy with the Oppo and am likely to return and get the s97s. And this from a guy who rarely returns anything... but I've been waiting for my home theatre for a long time and I want it right!! (new samsung 6168, w/b&w speakers, pioneer elite rcvr) My reasons are not PQ but UI issues;
1) the transport is flimsy and am concerned someone in the house will break this
2) poor remote control; in my dark home theatre forget about figuring out what buttons to push.

The Oppo PQ is quite good (but then again I didnt think the samsung 950 had a bad pq as some have suggested).

Any comments on build quality of the s97s and the user experience? My goals are hdmi, audio delay and upconversion (of course excellent pq) - this unit seems to be the way to go. I dont want the sony as I want dvd-audio capability, too

Everyone seems to want upconversion.... but as Im going into a 1080p sammy, dont I/we want the sammy to do the upconversion only once with the picture and basically just output to the sammy the baseline resolution (480P?)??

That's the question I have been mulling over. I think the answer depends on where you get the best scaling/deinterlacing with minimal artifacts. The Faradja 2310 in the s-97 does an exceptional job at scaling/deinterlacing but does produce macroblocking on some displays. I am lucky in that I do all the scaling once in the player then sent it 720p over HDMI and rarely see macroblocking. Also my projector contains a Faradja 2310 so it likely doesn't matter where I scale as long as I only do it once.

Others would argue that it would be better to send 480i (not p) over hdmi and scale at the display or an outboard scaler. For now the s-97 does not do 480i over hdmi so that is not an option and IMO a weakness of the s-97. With your 1080p display you may get better results with a player sending 480i HDMI, then scaling in the display to 1080p if it has that capability.

The point is you only want to scale once so sending 480p from the player and then scaling again in the display may not give you optimal performance.

Any comments on build quality of the s97s and the user experience? My goals are hdmi, audio delay and upconversion (of course excellent pq) - this unit seems to be the way to go. I dont want the sony as I want dvd-audio capability, too

I've recently compared the Oppo, S97, Sony 975, and Denon 1920 via 480i component to an external scaler and via their DVI/HDMI ports.

I like the S97 was the best in both categories in my opinion. The Oppo's component out was horrible and its picture was not that detailed. The S97 had the most detail on both component and HDMI out.

EDIT: You are correct, since you have to scale to 1080p, I would not double scale. Either send 480i or 480p to the set. With 480p, the player deinterlaces and the set scales. In this case, you want a good progressive player. YOu might want to pick up something like a Denon 2900 for you needs. Better than all of the options above.

Dave

Dave - It'd be great if you could post your impressions in the Denon 1920 thread, as well. Regarding the players you mentioned and the 1920 of course :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=557414

Today i bought the s97.I needed a player with digital out for my sanyo z2.I will connect them using an hdmi to dvi adapter.The player using it for now with my plilips 32" crt tv is superb.
The problem is that a few days ago i gave the projector for calibration and they asked me if i want it to be calibratred for pc ire leves(0-255) or standard (16-235).I chose standard.Thinking that all set-top players work at standard levels(16-235)
.Now that i bought the s97 and reading reviews and everything i can find in the internet i understand that i don`t know at what ire levels is working.RGB levels(standard-enchanced) in the menus affect ire levels?They will be using a Denon 3910 for the calibration.
I still have time to call and asked them for pc levels if i made a mistake.

Has anyone noticed their DVD-S97 running hot? ...

Rick
I've had my S97 since May and although it does get warm, it is not too hot to put my hand on and that's even after running it all day watching the full Lord of the Rings... my receiver though gets really hot...

I am not happy with the Oppo ...
... the transport is flimsy...


I think the S97 tray is also flimsy and am concerned about it getting broken by my kids... I think the S97 remote is excellent and provides easy access to all the S97 features so it is easy to use different settings for different DVDs. Upconversion is only available via the HDMI (720p, 1080i); my Sony displays 720p and 1080i at 1080i (from HDMI out) and 480i at 960i (from Component out). You may want to check what upconversion your TV does, you may not need an upconverting DVD player.

...Others would argue that it would be better to send 480i (not p) over hdmi and scale at the display or an outboard scaler. For now the s-97 does not do 480i over hdmi so that is not an option and IMO a weakness of the s-97...
The S97 outputs 480i or 480p via the Component out; by default, it outputs 480i (via the Component out) whenever HDMI is turned on. My Sony converts (scales) the 480i to 960i.

For a comparison of the Panasonic DVD-S77, Toshiba SD-5980, and Samsung DVD-H950, see http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=870&page_number=4. The S77 is clearly the best all-round player and by everything I've read, the S97 is better overall than the S77

So I just went to BestTry and they had the s97s in stock (for 1/3 more than everyone else) and on display so I had a chance to audition on the samsung 6168 (my set). I was very impressed with everything about this player most important PQ; other than 1 dont like a silver faceplate. Very configurable and has the features I need including the 100ms audio delay. Very nice control capabilities and reasonably easy to use menu structure and an unusually usable remote control.
Seemed solidly built. Anyone found a way to access the audio delay without going down the menu structure; also is there any way to turn off the display.
I am purchasing this and the Oppo goes back

The S97 outputs 480i or 480p via the Component out; by default, it outputs 480i whenever HDMI is turned on. My Sony converts (scales) the 480i to 960i.

The s-97 cannot be configured to output HDMI 480i. Reread the start of this thread for more information.

The s-97 cannot be configured to output HDMI 480i. Reread the start of this thread for more information.
Reread what I wrote! I stated that 480i was output via Component out whenever HDMI is turned on; see page 14 of the manual (the words used are: When "HDMI Video Mode" is set to "On", Output from the COMPONENT VIDEO OUT terminal will be "480i")

Ok thanks. Wasn't clear the way you wrote it. :)

The s-97 cannot be configured to output HDMI 480i. Reread the start of this thread for more information.

I remember someone saying that, if you turn OFF HDMI video in the S97 setup screen, it will output 480i over HDMI...

I will check it tonight.

I just picked up the S97 last night - I can't return for a refund, but I'm pretty sure I could sell it to a friend or two who have digital RPTVs.

Macroblocking is very severe, at least with the 528 firmware and mated to a Hitachi Ultravision 42V525 RPTV. It was a realy shock - large, 20x20 pixel red blocks swimming in the background in the UE edition of Fifth Element, when you are first introduced to Corbin/Bruce Willis, waking up from a bad dream. Playing the same scene on my Benq 8700+ and I could make out a reddish blotch. Updating to 541 and the blotch is still there, but not objectionable - I will need to check against my HTPC and Momitsu V880 to see if it is the source. Still, MB enhance really is obvious on the Hitachi set. I hope to try it again since I updated to 541.

I am also seeing pink/magenta shades in Sin City - actually quite distracting when projecting 16 ftL on my screen. Ouch. I should have tried 540 first - I hope I can go back - someone in the firmware thread said he managed to go back from 541 to 540.

This player works very well with anime - about as good as the Sil504 scaler/deinterlacer in my Benq 8700, but with far superior scaling. I do see severe ringing in the DVE APL test patterns and the grayscale ramp pattern - dialing down the S97 sharpnesss from 0 to -7 has no effect, but gets worse when going above +1.

So far, my HTPC has the best overall picture - but the deinterlacing on the HTPC isn't that great (score of 30 or so with the HQV benchmark). The lacking of any perceivable ringing on the HTPC has me spoilt - it is so smooth and filmlike on the HTPC. The S97 is between the HTPC and the (digital-looking but somehow doesn't add severe ringing in test patterns) Momitsu V880 in terms of film-like subjective quality - a pretty good compromise with softer anime transfers.

Looks like I'll be using the S97 quite a bit with anime and other challenging sources. If the pink is gone and the sharpness more flexible this would be a near-perfect player. The 10 pixel crop on each side (left and right) of the image doesn't bother me as much as I'd thought it would.

I would like to test this player on my neighbor's Sony 46" LCD RPTV - he has the need to read camcorder DVD-RAM discs - so if I can't live with the S97 it can still find a happy home (if there isn't any MB enhance on the Sony). :)

Has anyone noticed their DVD-S97 running hot? My S97 really heats up by the end of one movie, to where the DVD itself is very warm to the touch when I take it out, and also the right half of the top of the player is very warm, almost hot. Just wondering if this is normal. I've had my S97 since August 1st of this year, so the 30 day trial is over and can't return. And I love this player too, it's the best DVD player I've had so far.

Rick

Rick,

I had one with a build date of Jan 2005 and now one with July 2005. Both do run very warm, I suspect the processor is running quite hot. I also had a Samsung HD850 when I was debating whether to keep the S97. It ran pretty hot too, so I suspect this is normal.

TZ

Now that you mention it TZ, Rick - I noticed the S97 runs pretty darn hot. At least it doesn't lock up like my Momitsu does if there is anything sitting on top of it. :)

A few large online vendors (Amazon, B&H Photo, J&R) are out of stock of the DVD-S97.

Anyone know if this is because a new model is about to be released?

I remember someone saying that, if you turn OFF HDMI video in the S97 setup screen, it will output 480i over HDMI...

Thanks for the tip Rich. It does output 480i over hdmi when you turn hdmi off. After a year of owning this unit I thought I had every trick figured out. Much obliged. ;)

Thanks for the tip Rich. It does output 480i over hdmi when you turn hdmi off. After a year of owning this unit I thought I had every trick figured out. Much obliged. ;)

Sorry guys but I don't believe this is correct. Turning off HDMI in the menu changes the menu system from HDMI to component and this gives the illusion that you can change ouput from P to i but in actuality the HDMI progressive output is unaffected. When working within this false menu, switching from progressive to interlaced does not affect the actual HDMI ouput format.

This is how it works with my 4805 projector and I'd love to be proved incorrect on this matter but I ran across awhile ago and while in "480i" mode my projector is still receiving a 480p format signal.

Hugh2, I think you are right - I just tried it myself, and when you disable HDMI in the Setup, my projector (benq 8700) resyncs over the DVI input and reports 525p - which tells me the S97 is resetting the HDMI output to 480p. Likely the S97 detects the projector again, and defaults to 480p.

BTW, I think I understand the macroblock enhance issue - I have evidence, at least with my projector, that MB enhance will be visible only on display devices with a gamma lower than approximately 2.5. For example, if I set my Benq 8700's gamma index from the default 66 to 72, the macroblocking is very visible. Now, I used 72 in the last few weeks because I measured it to have 2.5 gamma, but I think I measured wrong (Charles Poynton's gamma paper showed me how it can be mismeasured), and the default 66 index setting is really 2.5. Setting the index to 72 likely lowered the gamma to 2.4 or even 2.3 - which causes the shadow detail to ramp up too quickly, thereby exposing the macroblocking.

I suggest that those of you who see macroblocking should try adjusting the gamma curve of your sets to see if this helps!

>maxelung

>Macroblocking is very severe, at least with the 528 firmware and mated to a Hitachi Ultravision 42V525 RPTV. It was a realy shock - large, 20x20 pixel red blocks swimming in the background in the UE edition of Fifth Element, when you are first introduced to Corbin/Bruce Willis, waking up from a bad dream.

I played the SE Fifth Element last night and did not experiance this at all with my DVD-s77.
My TV is a Hitatchi 65swx20b. I just rewatched that scene and could not duplicate that problem.

Thanks for the correction Hugh and Maxleoung.

P17 of the manual states

"Off: When video output is from COMPONENT VIDEO OUT terminal (output is 480p from HDMI AV
OUT terminal)."

I wonder whether it would be possible to implement by firmware...

BTW, I think I understand the macroblock enhance issue - I have evidence, at least with my projector, that MB enhance will be visible only on display devices with a gamma lower than approximately 2.5. For example, if I set my Benq 8700's gamma index from the default 66 to 72, the macroblocking is very visible. Now, I used 72 in the last few weeks because I measured it to have 2.5 gamma, but I think I measured wrong (Charles Poynton's gamma paper showed me how it can be mismeasured), and the default 66 index setting is really 2.5. Setting the index to 72 likely lowered the gamma to 2.4 or even 2.3 - which causes the shadow detail to ramp up too quickly, thereby exposing the macroblocking.

I suggest that those of you who see macroblocking should try adjusting the gamma curve of your sets to see if this helps!

You may be on to something here. I have had my projector set to gamma approximating 2.6 - 2.7 where together with RGB adjustments in the service menu produces excellent colour and inky blacks without sacrificing shadow detail. I have very rarely seen macroblocking with the s-97 after v 536. Another possible fix for those who cannot adjust their display gamma may be to experiment with the gamma setting in the s-97 though I have not tried it.

I've tried to search but not finding my answer.

Does anybody know if the S97S will perform the Vertical stretch needed for a constant height anamorphic 2.35 setup. I know it will zoom the picture, but that is not what you want. My Z2 will stretch 2.35 material when sent over 480i or 480p, however, once you try 720p or 1080i modes on the S97S, the Z2 will not vertically stretch the picture. I know many other brands of upconverting DVD players will perform this stretch, just can't seem to get the Panny to do this, am I SOL?

Thanks, Randy

badabing, likely your set has the 2.5 or higher gamma which would mask the effect. But to be fair, I have not tried the 541 update with that 42" Hitach LCD RPTV yet - it might be mostly gone for all I know! BTW, was your set ISF'd? My friend's 42" Hitachi is admittedly a lower-end model purchased at one of those discount A/V stores - sigh - he should have consulted me first - I would have recommended a better set for a similar price.

I forgot to mention that I got macroblocking on my Benq with the 541 firmware, but only if I use a gamma index of 72 or higher. I could not test it with the 528 firmware as I had already updated it before I thought about the gamma tweak!

Randy - good question. I doubt it would work, and even if it did, previous posters said they didn't like the quality of the scaling anyways. :(

jakeman - interesting - I really should remeasure the gamma on my projector at default gamma settings - the gamma might be 2.6 or higher as well! That would explain why benq 8700 owners haven't reported any macroblocking on any of the FLI23xx players, because nearly all of them leave the gamma index at default values.

Interesting...

Gamma was discussed a bit early on in this thread but from the perspective of adjusting it on the *player*. As I recall, it seemed the *player's* adjustment seemed to shuffle the MBE around a bit at the expense of unnaturally affecting shadow detail.

I'll take another look, but unfortunately, my display doesn't allow for gamma adjustment.

Paul

Need help! I have a Toshiba 46HM94 with HDMI input and after much research and thanks to this forum, I decided on the Panny S97 player for my system. After the standard 4 month backorder wait, I get the unit home, plug it in and set my TV to HDMI input and I get nothing excet for an intermittent flicker of full green screen. I get the U70-3 error code on the players' display that I am unable to get rid of or play a DVD through. I tried all of the forum work-arounds (after scouring this entire thread) ie, turning the TV on first, restarting and resetting the player, changing all the multitude of options, buying a new 6ft HDMI cable, etc..... I was so desperate I even called Panasonic. As usual they were not very helpful. They suggested I call one of their repair centers. Out of desperation I did and they knew even less about my problem and the U70-3 code. So now I am at an impass. I can still return this player, although I really think this player is the best price/performance for me, and wouldn't know what to replace it with, or keep it. I verified that my TV is HDCP compliant. Could different HDMI versions be the culprit My TV was purchased 12/04, not sure what version HDMI it is? Please, any advice will be appreciated.
Mike

Process of elimination:

1. Try the player with a friend's HDMI equipped display, trying the cables at that location.
2. Take the player to a (friendly) dealer and give it a try
3. Try another HDMI-equipped component (or borrow one from a friend) and make sure the TV's HDMI is OK
4. Turn the HDMI output on in the Panasonic setup menu.

Paul

I set my own TV up with AVE/DVE via my TV's service menu and manual.

Gamma is only adjustable in the service menu, i eye-balled it the best i could.

You are on to something with gamma effecting it for sure.

mjensen,

What is the exact model # of your player? I have the S97PP. There are several different versions apparently. I bought the service manual on-line thinking it would give me special insight into the unit.

I looked up your U70-3 error code and it isn't listed in the manual for the S97PP. There is a table full of error codes and they are pretty criptic to begin with but there is nothing close to your error number.

Perhaps that is why the Panasonic people couldn't figure out your error code. Maybe you need to tell them the exact model number. It is on the outside of the box and probably on the back of the player although I didn't look at mine because I still have the box.

I don't know if that will help but maybe you have a different model number and it generates different error codes?

Anyway it may not help much but I thought it might point you in the right direction if you still can't figure it out.

What you didn't say though in your post was whether it works on component or composite or S-video. Did you try any of those? Was it working then?

Mike

The U70-x codes are described in the troubleshooting section in my US manual, p. 19 under unit displays.

If you tried all options to get it working, then in the end, it's chip incompatibility. It's happened to me as well - nothing you can do if you've tried different cables, etc. Then HDCP fails, you see the picture lock in for a fraction of a second, validation fails, the picture flashes - this goes on and on.

Try a short cable as well - long cables may mess up the handshake timing. The S97 has a strict HDCP implementation and is fussy...

UPDATE: I bought an LG 511 and received the same problem through the HDMI. The problem is not the S97 but my Sony KV32HS420's apparent shortcomings with 480p via the HDMI. I will update this post if I am able to get it fixed.

------------------------------

Hello,

After much thought and research, I decided on purchasing an S97. This was a few months ago when they were out of stock. Vanns(dot)com got some in stock this past month and I went for it.

So far very dissapointed.

Perhaps you guys can help me out.

I have my S97 connected via HDMI to a Sony HDTV 32' (4:3) CRT KV32HS420
I watch a lot of anime which tends to be in 4:3 format. When my player is set to 480P while watching these 4:3 shows I will start getting what I would describe as:

image 'shaking'

Other words to describe it would be that the image 'jumps', 'bounces' or 'jitters'. Typically in a vertical manner.

The strange thing is that if the S97 has been turned off for a long time, for the first few minutes while I watch a DVD, everything is relatively normal. It is when the S97 player has been running for about 10 minutes or so that the image will start 'jumping', or 'boucing'. Don't get me wrong, the color and the image itself look great but its almost as though there is a litttle 6.6 earthquake going on in my TV screen.

Initially I e-mailed Panasonic, (they took about a week to answer) and they told me to switch to component for 480P shows. Of course, I was already doing that and had told myself that I would be satisfied if that would work. But there is still image shaking even when doing it from the component. Though, it is not as bad but I can still tell that there is something going on. Like many of us, I have about a thousand other DVD players. I am quite sad to say that both my $69 Philips DVP642 and $38 CyberHome CH-DVD 320 set to 480P via the component do not exhibit any shaking or bouncing using the same DVDs. Sure, the actual image detail and color are way better on the S97 but they do not exhibit the imaging jumping.

I called Panny again and they suggested I just connect via HDMI and disconnect the component. Still no go.

I thought "maybe its the cheap HDMI cable they supplied, perhaps its starts to lose its accuracy as the DVD player heats up", so I went to Best Buy and bought a 4ft $150 dollar HDMI cable ( I could have bought an upconvert LD they had on special for about the same price!).

Nope, still shaking.

Any suggestions or comments?

As I said before, this only happens after the player has been on for about ten minutes. Once it starts shaking, though, it will not revert back to normal until it has cooled down (I am assuming) or it has cleared any weird buffers ( I am assuming).

I have my HDMI Output set to 'ON' and have played with most of the settings (please let me know if you have any suggestions on a combination).

I have also gone as far as disconnecting every other input that was going to my TV and powering down all the devices around the S97 and my TV.

The movies I tried this on was:
Forrest Gump
Neon Genesis Evangelion Platinum Vol 1
DNAngel
and various others.

It is easiest to see the shaking on animation with lots of prominent horizontal lines
and the DVD menus of any DVD disc.

Thank you for any comments, please!

mk2000

The S97 can run hot - make sure that there is some ventilation and you don't have other hot electronic devices below/above it (based upon the fact that it jitters after a while).

Also, try setting the S97 Transfer Mode to Video when you watch anime - this may help.

I was bored last night and experimented with the S97 brightness and contrast settings, as well as the display type settings (ie. Standard, CRT projector, LCD, Projection TV, etc.).

I was very surprised - using AVS member 3no's black and white calibration disc (found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5525270&&#post5525270 ), I could not get the S97 to display any of the below black bars below level 16 unless the player's brightness is overcooked to +8!

When the brightness is set to +1, I get a couple of bars below video black, at levels 15, 14, and possibly 13. The rest are not even displayed, even when pumping the brightness on my projector to the maximum. On my HTPC, all bars below black are shown.

Oh well - I guess it doesn't matter very much anyways, since I calibrate my display to hide most of the below black information anyways - I'll have to trust that the S97 is merely clipping it and not expanding levels that introduce contouring.

With S97 contrast set to -3, I can see nearly all the 232-255 level bars on 3no's test disc - but unfortunately this introduces bad contouring on clouds and other whitish backgrounds. Only a contrast of -1 or 0 keeps contouring to a minimum, but setting it to zero clips almost all levels above reference white (235) - and in fact it seems to expand reference white to be peak white (235 becomes 255). The S97 is essentially outputting only 16-235 expanded to 16-255 levels! Yikes - maybe that explains why we see pink in B&W images? The expansion must be mucking with the grayscale of this player.

On such a highly regarded player, it sure is a shock to see this - but to be fair no one has the equipment to accurately measure the digital output. My guess is that only HTPCs with recent videocards will outperform standalone DVD players in this regard - less chance of contouring, no highlight and below black clipping, and in many cases superior scaling. The S97 introduces severe ringing on all gray bar, gray ramp, resolution, and geometry patterns (EDIT: Only at 720p and 1080i, NOT 480p). IMHO, the Momitsu V880 has the better scaler, and the HTPC has the best. Perhaps only an external scaler would best the HTPC at this point.

Assuming that the DVI output of my HTPC is perfect (ie. like an Accupel generator), I can make the S97 come close to it by setting its contrast to -1 and brightness to +1...I only have to lower the brightness setting of my projector by two notches to get a very similar (but slightly clipped) image.

BTW, the above observations is with an HDMI-to-DVI cable attached...so what I am seeing may simply be a bug in the 4:2:2->RGB conversion of the S97...who knows?

Damn, I am tempted to buy an Oppo just to see if it does the same thing too. I must resist the temptation - must....watch....movies...instead! :D

Damn, I am tempted to buy an Oppo just to see if it does the same thing too. I must resist the temptation - must....watch....movies...instead! :D

I needed to set my contrast to -5 (w/ brightness at +1) to get a nice looking ramps pattern without clipping whites. The result was a very very noisy picture.

I picked up the Oppo and have been very pleased w/ the results. Much smoother image IMHO. You do need to make a few tweaks to the Oppo's settings to get BTB to pass (set brightness to +5) as the player is set to PC RGB levels by default I believe. I also tweaked the contrast setting slightly. But whites look white - don't have any pink issues and the picture is much less noisy.

Max, your settings are almost identical to mine though I keep brightness on the projector 3 notches down at 47 (50 is midpoint default). Are you getting the same results at HDMI 4:4:4 OR HDMI:RGB?

Jakeman, my projector only has a DVI input, so it can only accept RGB. If I visit my friend's place I could experiment with 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 HDMI on his Hitach LCD RPTV.

It's too bad nobody took the (anal) step of comparing with other digital sources, such as an HTPC or using 3no's superb BTB/WTW test patterns - I probably would have passed over this player if someone else had done it first. Well, better late than never! ;)

I have a bad feeling that the S97 is actually clipping <16 and >235 information, and that using a brightness of +1 and contrast of -1 is actually expanding 16-235 to 13-245 (or so) and introducing more artifacts!

I knew an HTPC background would come in handy. :)

I have a bad feeling that the S97 is actually clipping <16 and >235 information, and that using a brightness of +1 and contrast of -1 is actually expanding 16-235 to 13-245 (or so) and introducing more artifacts!


This is pretty much what I've concluded as well. Either way the video levels are being manipulated incorrectly.

Here's my very short post of my observations.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6130611&highlight=btb#post6130611

That's possible Max. The reason I asked is because I have always felt that DVI resulted in more artifacts than using HDMI 4:2:2 because of the 8 bit DVI bottleneck. Certainly when I strain my eye I see slightly more noise when I put a DVI adapter into the mix. I burned 3no's calibration disc and will do some testing tonight to corroborate your findings on black and white levels.

Hugh are you using HDMI connections?

Jakeman,

Yes, I'm using the hdmi output into 4805 dvi input. Bob Williams posted the exact gains/offsets adjustment for this PJ which provide properly calibrated levels (using accupel generator) assuming the source is correct.

Guys

I had the U70-3 issue on my player....and it would NOT play....projector keeps cycling trying to get the signal but says it is unsupported.

I figured it was the cable, so I bought a new 25FT cable...and it worked right away. But now the U70-3 error is on the display but the player is working. yesterday it did cycle twice saying unsupported, but then it worked fine.

This concerns me and the panasonic customer support just said to take it to a service center. There is ony in my town (believe it or not) and I may take it there....my concern is my phone call to them was less than confidence inspiring. and they want my player for 4-5 days to check it out.

Anyone else having this issue to the point where the player doesnt work? I saw one post earlier with it not working and a few others where the code displayed but no other symptoms.

why cant everything just work ... so annoying.

Jim

I get the U70 error when I first turn everything on. I assume this is because the projector isn't quite ready to hand shake yet. After a few seconds everything is fine and I have never had any drop outs! I have a cheap 30 ft. DVI cord. (Obviously I have an adapter on the S97 end.)

Jakeman,

Yes, I'm using the hdmi output into 4805 dvi input. Bob Williams posted the exact gains/offsets adjustment for this PJ which provide properly calibrated levels (using accupel generator) assuming the source is correct.

Upconverting players using DVI into DLP displays are known to produce contouring artifacts related to limitations of 8 bit processing. I do not see contouring running straight HDMI from the s-97 to the hdmi input in the sim2 ht 300e projector. Here is a recent comment on this problem from Kris Deering,

"There is a common misconception in the electronics world that DVI and HDMI are identical except for HDMI’s ability to carry multi-channel audio signals on top of video. This is not true. DVI outputs 8 bit RGB signals only and cannot carry 10 bit video like HDMI can. In fact, HDMI is actually capable of 12 bit transmission as well. What does this buy you? Well if you are lucky enough to have a display with an HDMI input, you can significantly reduce the contouring artifacts that are commonly associated with digital displays. A lot of this may depend on the internal processing of your display though too. This is one of the gripes I’ve had with DLP based projectors and displays. Most are DVI- based and only incorporate 8 bit processing internally. So contouring in gray ramps is quite evident. You’ll also usually see it in skies and underwater scenes. If you are lucky enough to have a display with an HDMI input, and with high bit processing, this is pretty much eliminated."

I am bringing this to your and others attention because it appears to me that it is inaccurate to blame the player for the contouring problem as it is likely more DVI processing related. The question of misssing or crushed black and white information is more troublesome though and I will check it tonight as well.

Thanks jake - when I see contouring I usually blame my projector and the limitations of DVI too. I'm looking forward to your tests - I'm assuming you have HDMI input on your projector, so it will be interesting to see if clipping occurs with 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 non-RGB processing...

Jim, I notice that on my projector, when I hook up the S97 it takes a long time for my projector to sync - it takes about 4 tries to find the signal. Each try it says "DVI-I Searching: Not supported" before finally locking on. Very strange - probably some kind of handshaking going on. I did not think to look at the S97's LED display to see if I am getting U70 messages while it was doing that.

Hugh - interesting - somehow I forgot about your post. Strangely, I don't recall ever getting BTB information when set to Normal mode - what is the display type set to? CRT Projector?

EDIT: After reading some more in that thread you linked, it seems that "Projection TV" is the display type to use - I think I am using that right now too! :)

The S97 introduces severe ringing on all gray bar, gray ramp, resolution, and geometry patterns. IMHO, the Momitsu V880 has the better scaler, and the HTPC has the best. Perhaps only an external scaler would best the HTPC at this point.

On the S97, I have not experienced this. I have tested this on a CRT front projector (Barco Graphics 1208/2) to a 92" wide screen and a CRT RPTV (Sony KDP-57WS655). I tested both component 480i/p to the RPTV and 480i to a Lumagen scaler. I also tested HDMI to the RPTVs HDMI and HDMI to the CRT projector via a dtrovision dc-da1.

I have experienced only slight ringing on the S97--not the severe ringing you noticed on any of these patterns. Also, I did not find the scaler adding false contouring artifacts (this is usually an artifact created by digital displays--particularaly DLP). The scaler in the S97 is OK, but I find the scaler in the Lumagen is superior.

As an aside, I found more ringing in the Denon 1920. As another aside, the Oppo's component out was intolerably noisy, and the scaling of the Oppo was far too soft for me.

Dave

Ah - Dave, I forgot to mention that the ringing I see only occurs at 720p and 1080i. 480p through HDMI looks fine. Sorry about that.

...

Jim, I notice that on my projector, when I hook up the S97 it takes a long time for my projector to sync - it takes about 4 tries to find the signal. Each try it says "DVI-I Searching: Not supported" before finally locking on. Very strange - probably some kind of handshaking going on. I did not think to look at the S97's LED display to see if I am getting U70 messages while it was doing that.

That HDCP handshake is a real nuisance when using HDMI which I see occasionally as well. The problem is exacerbated if you route multiple hdmi sources through hdmi switchers in many hdmi enabled avrs. If the handshake takes too long it can cause the display or source (in the case of dvi cable boxes) to shut down. I used to route my s-97 through an arcam avp 700 but stopped because the handshake through the avr took so long it shut down my projector, so the player is just connected directly now. Arcam is working on a faster handshake but the real solution getting rid of hdcp isn't available for hdmi users.

The tadeoff for 10-12 bit hdmi processing is the main reason I avoid players and displays with DVI enabled even though dvi players generally have fewer handshake problems. If Oppo produced an HDMI model I would look at it further but seeing how I do not experience any contouring and by the sounds of it far fewer artifacts than reported here I can't help but think many posters should be focussing more on limitations of the interface and display .

On the video information problem I recall now that the last Secrets review admonished Panasonic for not dealing with it through a firmware revision so hopefully we will see another one. He also mentioned that the flagship Denon 5910 has the same problem.

Well I ran 3no's black and white calibration disc last night and the situation is better than expressed earlier. Firstly I can confirm Maxleung's general findings and Hugh's assessment that at +1 brightness -1 contrast black information is clipped below 15 and whites are crushed to 244 on my display. I believe whites clipped to 235 for Max at -1. On this first pass it appears to me that hdmi 4:2:2 on my display which also has the fl2310 chip is processing more white information which I surmise is related to superior HDMI processing throughout the video chain. The data I observed was as follows:

Brightness +1/ 15, +2/ 13 +3/11...+8/1.

Contrast -1/244, -2/252 , -3/255.

I found the same results using RGB and 4:4:4 hdmi YCbCr settings.

It is apparent that the s-97 is passing through the information with 0/0 brightness/contrast corresponding to 16/235 which is what one would expect for an hdmi player. The question of settings now depends on what artifacts occur as brightness raised to +8 or contast is lowered to -3. The other related question is what image looks best on one's particular display when the dispalys settings are adjusted.

With respect to the first question I set the player at +8/-3 and am happy to report that once again I see no contouring or macroblocking using the DVE video clips and the infamous fog scene in Master and Commander. So I continue to believe that contouring and banding artifacts as reported by others have more to do with the DVI interface and DLP/LCD processing at the display.

It was getting late so I stopped adjusting where the image looked best but I had settled at -3 on contrast and either side of +4 on brightness for now. I had also moved the displays brightness setting up from 47 to 48 and lowered contrast from 50 to 41. I clearly had more shadow detail and more white information in the restaurant scene in DVE upon closely examining the waiters jacket and the white linen tablecloth with no artifacts in evidence.

Regarding Gamma I also tested for macroblocking at 1.5-1.6 and 2.5-2.6 with no artifacts in evidence at either setting.

Bottom line for me is the player is excellent if you use it as designed as an hdmi player into an hdmi display. It also helps if you have the same chip in the player and the display which I have. Furthermore DVI is an artifact laden interface so have avoided using it. When I get around to it in the next day or two I plan to connect the player to my LG plasma via DVI interface and redo these tests.

jake, I think I get the same white clipping as you do with a contrast of -1, at around the 244 mark (I rechecked), so at least our DVI results match.

I agree that the HDMI interface will have less banding/contouring than through DVI.

With brightness at +8, all the BTB bars on 3no's disc will display, but I believe the S97 cheats by elevating the black bar values - for example, if the bar for level 1 is visible, the S97 will actually sent a level of 16 (or maybe less) to the projector so that it would be visible. (This is assuming DVI output - HDMI may be different.) I believe this is true based on the assumption that the DVI interface ONLY passes RGB values between 0-255, with no additional information such as brightness or other bias settings.

So, what I think is happening is that the S97 is remapping the levels to fit within a more limited range of RGB values. For example, when brightness is raised to +8 when the S97 is set to Projection TV mode, using RGB mode over the HDMI interface, we are probably seeing something like this:


Source Level: S97 Output:
0 10
1 11
2 12
3 13
4 13
5 14
6 15
7 16
8 17
9 17
10 18
11 19
12 20
13 21
14 22
15 22
16 23


Notice how some of the output levels are repeated? I'm guessing that it has to remap the 0-255 range into a more limited 16-235 range, giving us the illusion that the S97 can pass all the levels. Now, in reality, I think it can actually output approximately 14-255, but it is very difficult to find what magic settings are needed to have a 1:1 mapping of levels (with hardclipping at 13 and below).

I think when contrast is -1 and brightness +1, the S97 is taking input levels of 14-244 and expanding it to the 16-255 range.

When contrast is -3 (and keeping brightness at 0), I believe you are expanding 0-255 into a 16-235 range - the peak white (255) background in the 3no WTW pattern is noticeably dimmer. To prove this I would need to measure the light output of a 255 window twice, once with contrast at -3 and again at contrast -1 - although to my eyes the difference in brightness is very noticeable. My theory also nicely explains why we have to lower our display's brightness a few notches too.

Someone should tell Panasonic engineers to follow the video standards (well, at least for RGB). ;)

Interesting thought on remapping though I am not seeing evidence of it. My data collection suggests a linear mapping is occurring. I think our collective data suggests further evidence of the difference between 8 bit and 12 bit processing. In fact as a result of this exercise I now have more shadow detail and white information on my display without paying for it in terms of increase in artifacts. :D I also think your last statement about Panny engineers is a little strong but I see where you are coming from.

jakeman, my HTPC is able to output RGB levels correctly, and has no issues with color conversion (no pink in B&W images!), so the difference between 8 bit and 12 bit processing isn't as dramatic on a properly designed player - heck, even my Momitsu puts out a more accurate picture, with less ringing and no color shifts over DVI (although I do suspect it is remapping like the S97)! My data suggests that the S97 has a few bugs in the color conversion to work out - as evidenced by people seeing color shifts in B&W movies on HDMI (4:4:4 and 4:2:2) displays!

But then again, I am comparing my S97 to an HTPC - a little unfair for the S97. My expectations are far too high for non-anime material. :D

BTW, I would love for someone with an Oppo to perform the tests we made - if the Oppo is demonstrably better with respect to ringing, color conversion, and levels mapping, it would give the S97 something to aspire to!

(Testing players is fun, compared to current Hollywood fare!)

jakeman, my HTPC is able to output RGB levels correctly, and has no issues with color conversion (no pink in B&W images!), so the difference between 8 bit and 12 bit processing isn't as dramatic on a properly designed player
)

I respectfully disagree. Friends of mine who have had the opportunity to look at my HT and compare it with CRT/HTPC setups were very surprised that the s-97 through HDMI was throwing out a superior image.. vivid colours, better resolution, deeper blacks, less artifacts etc. One thing I've noticed in these threads is a lack of understanding or appreciation of how big a difference comes from a properly configured HDMI system.

While there are long technical descriptions of why that is the case I summarize it by pointing out that it is not the increase in bits thats important but how those bits are reallocated in the conversion. My understanding is that in order to convert 8 bit data more accurately (ie with fewer artifacts and contouring) you need more bits because of the complex algorithims involved in the reallocation of the bits . This is where HDMI which supports alternate colourspaces that DVI does not, such as 4:2:2 YCbCr colourspace with up to 12 bits per component, can potentially produce smoother gradations of colour and cleaner scaled images. Bottom line is even though the dvd is 8 bit encoded running it through hdmi at say 12-bit YCrCb 4:2:2 mode should produce an image with less artifacts even if its only close to 8 bit coming out the display. I say only close because 8 bit in usually doesn't end up as 8 bit out because of all the processing invoved in the reallocation of those bits. And that is where all the headroom comes in handy. If you start with 8 bit, process it in 8 bit space you will likely end up with a lot less 8 bit data and alot more noise filling in for it. That is why it is better to keep as much higher bit capability in the video chain as possible.

I agree that it should be the case that the extra bits should yield a superior picture. Unfortunately, in the real world, a properly configured HDMI system seems very hard to come by. The implementation is lacking - just look at the pink issues for black&white material with the S97, which I assume occurs with people who have HDMI displays too! Arrrgh.

What good are the extra bits if the bits are wrong in the first place? :(

So yes, we agree. More bits better. Wrong bits bad. :)

BTW, my HTPC is still better than the S97 (with RGB) - maybe those HTPCs were setup incorrectly? Also, CRTs will not look as good compared to a digital display - the latter have better ANSI contrast (more depth) and the images will look sharper - they will look better to most people at first or second glance. I'm not knocking the S97 - it isn't an HTPC killer yet...maybe after a few firmware upgrades! *fingers crossed*

Also, CRTs will not look as good compared to a digital display - the latter have better ANSI contrast (more depth) and the images will look sharper - they will look better to most people at first or second glance.

This is not completely correct. For many the CRT will be superior to the digital display because if has far fewer artifacts (for example--false contouring). Secondly, although the ANSI contrast is lower, the on/off is phenominaly better. You will also get a smoother, more film-like natural looking image from the CRT. Due to the natural gaussian blur of the CRT spot, even 8-bit will look better because there is substantially less false contouring due to the overlapping spots creating the "in between" shades.

Preferences may come into play, but to say that a CRT will not look as good as a digital is ridiculous. I've had several people shopping for 720p digital projectors that have come to my house to see a CRT projector in 720p and decide to get the CRT for the better picture and movie experience.

You can sit much closer to the screen with the CRT PJ at either 720p,768p, or 1080i than you can to a 720p digital's screen. I sit 1.45x screen width away from my CRT projector's screen watching 720p. According to THX recommendations, you should NEVER sit further away from the screen than 1.54x width when watching film because the screen should take up at a miminum 36 degrees of your field of view (and preferably more) . I've yet to see the 720p digital that I can sit that close to (i.e. no 720p digital can give me the proper theater experience with a viewing angle which exceeds 36 degrees let alone matches my preferred angle of 38-40 degrees).

Friends of mine who have had the opportunity to look at my HT and compare it with CRT/HTPC setups were very surprised that the s-97 through HDMI was throwing out a superior image

Lastly, an HTPC is an incredibly variable thing due to the incredible number of hardware and software configurations. To draw general conclusions about HTPCs based upon exposure to one is simply ludicrous.

Dave

Preferences may come into play, but to say that a CRT will not look as good as a digital is ridiculous. I've had several people shopping for 720p digital projectors that have come to my house to see a CRT projector in 720p and decide to get the CRT for the better picture and movie experience.

I didn't say that CRTs are worse! :) I merely said that to most people (let's call them Joe-and-Jane sixpacks), at first or second glance, a CRT will not look as good because of the (artificial) sharpness a digital display will seem to have. I have a CRT RPTV myself - still throws a pretty good picture! Film-like softness, no contouring, great colors. Too bad it is only 40 inches and has the annoying non-tracking blue gun that all CRTers know and love. But boy, it took many weeks of tweaking before it stopped looking like a POS - it didn't come out of a factory, it fell off the ugly tree!

A tweaked display, regardless of technology, will look better than a horribly out-of-whack one - we agree on that, right?

But I digress - has anyone tried the Prologic II features of the S97? How is it? My receiver cannot do Prologic 2 decoding, so I wonder how well it performs...

It is tough to configure an HDMI based system for sure. Besides avoiding a DVI bottlemeck by using hdmi ports throughout I have tried to make sure I have the same Faroudja 2310 chip in the main components I think that is just as important to reducing or eliminating artifacts during the scaling/interlacing processes and also provides the added benefit of choosing where you want the scaling or interlacing to happen.

But as you rightly point out it still is not perfect. The pink noise in particular really bugs me which was not in evidence in v536 but somehow has popped up (pooped up may be more correct) again with v541. That tells me the Panny engineers didn't tweak something correctly in the last firmware revision even though the only supposed difference was to correct pixel drops for PAL users.

Having said that the Oppo is a fine alternative but also has alot of issues, as do the Denons both of whom are in the same class as the s-97 according to Secrets. What I find ironic is that the flagship Denon at 10x the price of the s-97 has the same black and white issue we have been analysing. I am still waiting for another hdmi player which is a significant step up from the s-97 and I haven't seen one yet.

I have a running discussion with my CRT/HTPC friends about the relative merits and there are pros and cons. What is interesting is they are amazed of the PQ from such a lowly player. ;)

By the way I am Calgary frequently on business so a first or second glance from me is possible :)

Lastly, an HTPC is an incredibly variable thing due to the incredible number of hardware and software configurations. To draw general conclusions about HTPCs based upon exposure to one is simply ludicrous.

Dave

Yes of course and my friends bleat that refrain constantly. Fact is there has been such a rapid improvement in digital video technology over the past two years that a properly configured digital HT can look as good or better than many CRT based systems without the hassle of realigning those guns after every second viewing. Suffice it to say that the cult of CRT appears alive and well.

Hey, you should come on over when you are in town. :)

I have to admit, if I didn't have an HTPC I am darned sure this player would be one of the best I've seen, right up there with my Momitsu V880. If it didn't have the pink problem and the ringing, it would definitely trump the Momitsu easily - better build quality, fast response, Prologic 2, infinitely better remote, fast disc loading, subtitle movement (I think?), somewhat smoother image, excellent deinterlacing etc.

I just watched the last 3 episodes of the "Crest of the Stars" anime last night - not a single comb anywhere - the S97 did a great job! There was slight stuttering in a couple of places, but I was expecting that since the mastering was pretty horrible in the first place. Ugly mpeg artifacts were smoothed out nicely and pretty closely matched my HTPC in other areas.

Hmmm, good idea to match the FLI2310 in your components - I wish I had that option. The scaler in my Benq 8700 projector (sil504 does scaling right?) sucked - I was hoping to use 480p from the S97 to avoid the ringing the S97 introduces at 720p and 1080i modes, but I went right back to 720p because the projector couldn't smooth out the jaggies. Ouch.

maxleung,

I have been following along and I must admit that I am curious about your HTPC. I am by no means an expert on the subject and I have a lot to learn but I got the impression from reading sources like the Secrets Benchmark Tests that HTPC and Software Driven DVD players were poorly rated in general. Your Momitsu seemed to be rated better than the HTPC players but still no where near the ratings for the S97/77. I know that the Secrets reviews aren't the only thing to consider when looking for a player and please don't take my comments as an insult of any kind but I don't get why there would be such a visible difference in your findings.

On a slightly different note I also don't understand the popular concern about "seeing" 0 thru 15 levels as they are not meant to be seen by anyone nor are 236 to 255 at the other end. If you aren't supposed to see them, why does it matter which device, the player or the display, "clips" them? It seems that people like to know that they are reaching the display and then they set up the set so that you can't see them anyway. Almost like checking to see if the light comes on when you open the fridge.

I have read a few different threads in these forums like the "Go to guide for Source Options" and others but there seems to be supporters of both sides of the issue. Can you (or anyone else) provide any suggested reading that might give me a better understanding?

Thanks,

Mike

You are right about the calibration but the idea is to have dvd inputting BTB and peak white information so the processor and display has more headroom and footroom to work with. Having a broader range of bit information before calibrating to 16-235 studio levels should result in a superior image without artifacts. The source guide sticky is as good an information source on this topic as I have seen and I would pay particular attention to Chris Wiggles posts.

The concern we were discussing here yesterday was that we were losing video information at the prior recommended s-97 settings. Knowing now that -3/+8 corresponds to 0-255 means we have more knowledge when calibrating our displays. A -3/+8 setting with the display then calibrated to 16-235 by adjusting its contrast/brighness controls would be ideal but some users may see more artifacts so one would need to adjust both dvd and display settings at the same time to find the best compromise. I am still testing for the ideal settings myself but had to stop last night because it makes my wife irritable when she's concentrating on a movie. :)

Mike, my main concern with the 0-255 range is to make sure the player is not expanding levels. If a player only shows the 16-255 range I wonder what else the player is doing to the image that impacts PQ - is it clipping away the first 15 levels? Or maybe it taking the 16-235 levels, and adding a 16 level offset and sending 32-255 levels? I don't know - it sure looks suspicious to me. Also, the adding of a pink cast to grayscale also has me questioning the quality of the player's processing. I see minor level issues with my Momitsu (but no color cast) and I see none of these issues with my HTPC - which is why my HTPC is my reference.

The HTPC world has changed quite a bit from a year ago - the introduction of VMR9, the release of MCE2005, and the release of videocard drivers that conform to the video standards (they do not expand 16-235 to 0-255 anymore), the addition of shaders for more precise video processing, the implementation of very high-quality scalers in the driver/hardware, and the huge improvement of hardware-accelerated deinterlacing work together to make HTPCs rival high-end video processors - well, up to a point. :)

An HTPC is not a panacea though - I wanted the S97 so I can watch older anime without the massive combing these badly mastered discs introduce. The interlacer in my HTPC outperforms my RP91 and Momitsu, but is no match for the Faroudja. Now if I wanted to spend another $650 CDN, I could get an NVIDIA Geforce 7800GTX and get a working 2:2 cadence detection, but I am pretty sure it will fall flat on its face with the anime I watch! The S97 at half the price is a bargain. :) Oh wait, there is no AGP version of the 7800GTX, so make that $650+$200+$200 = $1050 CDN to upgrade the card, motherboard, and processor all at once.

The main video difference I see between the S97 and my HTPC:

1) S97 (w/541 f/w) has color cast in grays - which would throw off a colorimeter if you needed to calibrate.
2) S97 has excessive ringing when upscaling while the HTPC has no discernable artifacts (grayramps look a lot smoother too - not perfect though with a DVI DLP projector which can't be helped).
3) S97 performs much better on the HQV Benchmark DVD. Recovers from bad flags faster, and passes the jaggy test with flying covers. My HTPC falls down on this one - but if you look in the HQV Benchmark results thread elsewhere on this forum not everyone has this problem, so there are better HTPCs than mine. ;)
4) My HTPC has no macroblocking enhancement. Smooth and film-like. S97 isn't bad - the Momitsu looks noisy and very digital-like in comparison to both.

I will have to explore the -3/+8 combo one of these days - I do suspect that it takes 0-255 and "compresses" it to the 16-255 range - but this probably doesn't apply to HDMI, which has a lot more legroom with the extra bits! For now, I'm satisified with -1/+1.

Instead of tweaking, I watched Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig volume 1 last night. It looked good - but the disc does have a fair bit of edge enhancement made slightly worse by the S97.

Max I have not gone the HTPC route because it seems that problems compound exponentially with that kind of system. I doubt though that the player is compressing the data as you suggest, rather it appears to me that you are having difficulty maintaining proper studio levels in the pc domain as evidenced by the excessive ringing and other artifacts you are reporting. Most people here have tamed any ringing through proper sharpness adjustment.

I thought Chris Wriggles summed it up well in the guide,

" that proper playback of video requires Studio levels to maintain the full range of image data. This includes data outside the ‘bounds’ of the reference black/white points. Achieving this on a PC can be difficult sometimes, and it also means that your desktop and your video cannot both look correct at the same time. Expanding your video to match PC levels (0-255) will make your desktop and your video ‘agree’ and eliminate the need to recalibrate, but you’ve also negatively impacted video playback by clipping useful image data and introducing banding/contouring artifacts. This is undesirable, you should strive to maintain Studio levels if at all possible. Since this guide is directed at HT enthusiasts, I am assuming that accurate video playback is priority #1. I acknowledge that for users in other environments(multi-use, graphics etc) the problems introduced by expanding to PC levels might be an acceptable compromise for convenience. But wherever you strive for the best possible video quality, Studio levels are fundamental."

Hmmm, I think you misunderstand - I am definitely getting proper studio levels with my HTPC. Neither the Momitsu nor the HTPC are adding any excessive ringing or similar artifacts. I have sharpness turned off in the projector - yes, actually turned off, and not just set to zero.

Was that your original meaning?

Perhaps my S97 is defective. I do know that when I throw in Digital Video Essentials, and bring up any of the APL patterns (Title 12), the gray bars have a line running around the inside of the bar, making it look like there is another rectangle inside it. This only occurs when the player is set to 720p or higher. I've seen it on a true HDMI display (the Hitach 42" LCD, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 and RGB) as well as my DVI projector. No amount of sharpness adjustment in the player, the projector, or even the HDMI display will make these lines go away. I also see ringing within the S97's menus, and also the convergence/geometry patterns on the DVE disc.

I will have to explore the -3/+8 combo one of these days - I do suspect that it takes 0-255 and "compresses" it to the 16-255 range - but this probably doesn't apply to HDMI, which has a lot more legroom with the extra bits! For now, I'm satisified with -1/+1.

I think this is exactly what the s97 is doing. My 4805 projectors DVI port is looking for pc levels (0-255) for the pj to properly display digital 16 and 235. Bob Williams (the 4805 is his baby) with the use of an Accuppel generator has determined that to properly expand a 16-235 source levels to 0-255 levels at the pj, offsets/gains require the specific adjustment from default 50/50 to 28 2/3 and 58 respectively.

With the s97 adjusted at +8/-3 I had to bring the offsets all the way down to 5 and gains up to 62 to properly calibrate video black and white. With brightness at -1 (working off memory on this one) offset had to be in the 25 range.

So as you originally noted with your re-mapping chart I concur fully that this is happening. This player at +8 does appear to remap it's a 0-255 signal into a 16-235/45 bit space. This means that digital 16 is now somewhere around 32 and explains why my projectors offset has to be lowered down to 5 in order to display digital 16 (now mapped at 32) as black.

Even though I'm really pleased with the overall image quality (even with the obvious vertical ringing at 480p which shows up as shimmering on thin vertical lines) this BTB level manipulation really bothers me and has so for sometime now as it induces excessive contouring mostly in greys and blues..

Let's all think about this in the simplist terms, how can increasing brightness and decreasing contrast to show BTB and WTW expand a signal... it can't, under these adjustments you are clearly compressing the signal but does give the illusion of more info due to now visible btb and wtw.

Interesting. I will have to defer to your findings as I am not using 8 bit DVI in my system. Still I find it curious that the patterns I reviewed showed a more normal linear mapping than the compressed one. My hunch continues to be that you are seeing the limitations of 8 bit as opposed to 12 bit processing. If that is correct I should be able to see the compression when I run DVI into my plasma. Assuming that is the case it may suggest component may be a better alternative than DVI for those who can't use HDMI throughout or for those really bothered by the data loss.

Thanks Hugh - I was basing my observations on my HTPC being a reliable DVI generator - but it is not as definitive as an Accupel!

Jake, your hunch sounds very reasonable - the problem with the LCD HDMI display I used was that it was uncalibrated except brightness and contrast - and the gamma (or something else?) is totally out of control on it as it exhibited horrible macroblocking artifacts that I could not get rid of. I could not conclude one way or another if the improved bit depth had any impact.

I recently purchased a S97 from a seller on Ebay and he said it was new in the box. I just received it and it was repackaged (not the original box or packaging inside). The box was padded and all the accessories were there but I know for sure it is not the original packaging. I'm in Canada and I got it from the US so I don't want to go to the trouble of shipping it back and having the original packaging is not a big deal.

Can you suggest what I can check for to make sure this is a new player and that everything is functioning properly? I know just playing a movie will not tell me that everything is working. Is there any way I can tell if it is refurbished or it has been repaired before? Can I tell if it has been used before...is there an internal setting that can tell me how many hours have been logged ont he player?

Thank you for any input you can provide.

Ken

Jakeman,

Your theory maybe correct but I find the same problem when using component. Increasing the brightness to show some resemblance of BTB increases contouring.

The image portrayed is still excellent so I guess it's more of a principle issue with me, there being a wrong way and correct way to do things and Panasonic imo chose the latter. I'm viewing on a 110 inch screen so this may make these error more obvious.

Its been awhile since I put a call into Panasonic in Mississauga but this discussion has me motivated. The challenge will be to get to a technician who actually understands the engineering behind the s-97.

Myabe I'm totally confused here but is the -8/+3 setting only necessary if you are going HDMI to DVI from the S97 to your display and the display is expecting PC RGB?

If I'm using HDMI/HDMI to my display using YCbCr or RGB, do I need to worry about this? Keep in mind, my display (Sammy HLP5063) converts YCbCr to RGB 8 bit as the first step in the processing chain.

I recently purchased a S97 from a seller on Ebay and he said it was new in the box. I just received it and it was repackaged (not the original box or packaging inside). The box was padded and all the accessories were there but I know for sure it is not the original packaging. I'm in Canada and I got it from the US so I don't want to go to the trouble of shipping it back and having the original packaging is not a big deal.

Can you suggest what I can check for to make sure this is a new player and that everything is functioning properly? I know just playing a movie will not tell me that everything is working. Is there any way I can tell if it is refurbished or it has been repaired before? Can I tell if it has been used before...is there an internal setting that can tell me how many hours have been logged ont he player?

Thank you for any input you can provide.

Ken

On the player press pause and FF then while holding these down press 6 on the remote. This will display total spindle hours. The last numbers in the sequence are what you want and I believe you multiply this number by 10 for actual hours.

Pressing 5 on the remote with same sequence gives both DVD laser hours and CD laser hours.

Myabe I'm totally confused here but is the -8/+3 setting only necessary if you are going HDMI to DVI from the S97 to your display and the display is expecting PC RGB?


No, Maxleung has determined, by using a disk with a full series of below black and above white fields, that these are the adjustments required which un-clip all (almost) of the below black and above white information.

I PM'd Kris Deering asking him to drop in and provide his insights into this discussion.

On the player press pause and FF then while holding these down press 6 on the remote. This will display total spindle hours. The last numbers in the sequence are what you want and I believe you multiply this number by 10 for actual hours.

Pressing 5 on the remote with same sequence gives both DVD laser hours and CD laser hours.

Thanks. When I press the 6 on the remote, I get "T20000" and when I press 5 on the remote, I get "T10000". What does that tell me?

BTW, the serial number and Manufactured date has been removed so I'm probably going to try to return it but I'd like to know for sure if it has been used to back up my case. Thanks.

Ken

Thanks. When I press the 6 on the remote, I get "T20000" and when I press 5 on the remote, I get "T10000". What does that tell me?

BTW, the serial number and Manufactured date has been removed so I'm probably going to try to return it but I'd like to know for sure if it has been used to back up my case. Thanks.

Ken

More than likely good news. It means there is less than ten hours on your machine and possibly zero.

Edit: and congratulations on your relatively new, stolen unit.

More than likely good news. It means there is less than ten hours on your machine and possibly zero.

Edit: and congratulations on your relatively new, stolen unit.

That's funny but you may be right too. I checked the default settings on the player, like Akastp suggested, and many of them have been changed. If it has been refurbished by the factory, I would think that they would reset everything.

Make sure you leave bad feedback for that seller so we don't run into him!!!!!

I've tried a number of reputable local NY area places to buy this piece and noone has a one and also dont have delivery dates.
Does anyone know whether there is a reason for this?

It looks like a lemon, smells like a lemon and tastes like a lemon...

Anyway, the player may be perfectly OK but you might want to demand a partial refund for it not being new as advertised. And obviously the lack of a serial number will most likely prevent getting warranty coverage from Panasonic.

The seller's name on Ebay is georgiy1968 and he has an online store http://www.brand-electronics.com out of New York. Bruno1453, I intend to leave him negative feedback.

I won the auction for $242.50 but he made me wait about 3 weeks for it so he discounted it to about $218.50. It is a good price but it would be worthless if this thing breaks down on me. I basically have no warranty. If he offers to give me some money back, how can I be sure that this thing is working properly? Though it has almost no hours on it, something else could be wrong and it could die next week. Any ideas? Thanks.

Ken

Sorry, I forgot to ad that I checked the firmware and it is 86H360. Does this mean anything? Thanks.

Ken

Ken, the 86H part means your player has newer hardware - at least newer than my 85E528 that my player shipped with (and since updated to firmware 541 - the last 3 digits is the firmware version). For your player, 362 on the new hardware would be equivalent firmware 541 on the old one. If you decide to keep this player, I would not upgrade the firmware at this time unless you really think it needs it.

Boy, it sure sounds like you got shipped stolen goods - maybe you can have him exchange it for a legitimate player, or get a complete refund after return? If not, I guess you could threaten to report him to the cops - it certainly is suspicious. What is the standard procedure in this situation anyways?

Ken, the 86H part means your player has newer hardware - at least newer than my 85E528 that my player shipped with (and since updated to firmware 541 - the last 3 digits is the firmware version). For your player, 362 on the new hardware would be equivalent firmware 541 on the old one. If you decide to keep this player, I would not upgrade the firmware at this time unless you really think it needs it.

Boy, it sure sounds like you got shipped stolen goods - maybe you can have him exchange it for a legitimate player, or get a complete refund after return? If not, I guess you could threaten to report him to the cops - it certainly is suspicious. What is the standard procedure in this situation anyways?

It is good to know that this is a pretty new stolen player. At least I won't have to worry about the firmware upgrade. I don't trust him to send me a legitimate player and I'd rather pay full price to get something reliable. If he won't refund my money, I'll get Visa to take it from him. Did you buy yours in Calgary? I'm now in the market for one.

I'm just curious if most S97 owners using the settings (or very similar) outlined by Paul in the first thread. Please forgive me if this has been asked before but over 3800 posts is a lot to read to find out what everyone is saying. I wouldn't know how to tweak this player on my own and I was hoping I could use Paul's setting and just start using the player. Thanks for any input.

Ken

I bought mine at a local brick-and-mortar Soundsaround store. I paid $298 CDN for it - a bit more than others I think, but considering no one in the city seems to carry it, except for the Video and Sound store that wanted $347!

It was very odd that Soundsaround opened all of the S97 boxes and removed the cable - one of the sales guys told me they did that so they could turn around and sell you a Monster HDMI cable for $150 - sheesh, that's ridiculous.

EDIT: I had them give me the free cable. :)

I found some time yesterday evening to test -3/+8 settings and play with projectors contrast and brightness. The display settings were adjusted so that I had 15-252. For my sim2 ht300e I did not need to lower it much from the older -1/+1 player settings which was something of a relief.( Was 50/47 now 41/43). To my eye there is considerable more shadow detail and white detail in the image. Also I saw no evidence of banding, contouring or macroblocking.

The revised settings though have resulted in a lower contrast ratio which comes from the additional peak whites that I am trying to preserve. The clouds and white clothes look much more vivid but that pesky pink noise though subtle is also there. Panasonic should fix that firmware screwup.

Overall I think the image is superior though I may back off peak whites a bit and go to reference black to improve contrast ratio. I have not changed the depth enhancer and mosquite DNR settings from +1 since Hugh first recommended it last year but I wonder if those are still ideal at -3/+8.

It was very odd that Soundsaround opened all of the S97 boxes and removed the cable - one of the sales guys told me they did that so they could turn around and sell you a Monster HDMI cable for $150 - sheesh, that's ridiculous.


Isn't it considered used merchandise if they open the box and pull something out of it? Its no longer new? How would someone know that it wasn't returned or used on the floor? I would have asked for more than a free cable.

They already had two demo units out on display, the seals weren't broken on the packages, and the batteries weren't removed from their wrappers, so I assumed it really was brand new (faith!). If I had known about the remote control check for spindle usage before I would have done that straight away though!

I was thinking about getting some cash off, but I was so happy to finally find an S97 in this entire city for under $400 that I was happy to just take it home. Besides, I could always sell it on eBay for a decent sum - or even better, sell to a friend who was drooling all over the image on his uncalibrated display. :)

jake, is that at 480p or 720p? If 480p, I can see the sim2 doing a superior job of scaling, combined with the extra bits, eliminating the contouring. At 720p, gray ramps have edge enhancement applied to them a bit by the s97, making it look like they are contouring (in 8 bit RGB at least)! I verified this on my HTPC and with the inbuilt projector's scaler by increasing sharpness until the grayscale ramps became too edgy).

Max. I tested at 720p hdmi YCbCr 4:2:2 all deinterlacing and scaling done in the player. Have set the projector pixel to pixel in essence turning the scaler/deinterlacer off. If I input 480p and scale at the projector I expect some improvement because of the projector's superior power supply but not much since the projector also contains the same Faroudja chip. I wanted to isolate performance in the player as much as possible. I suspect I might get even better performance by adjusting gamma with these new settings but that's for another day. In any event it looks better to me.

Okay! Hmmm, I should play with the mpeg DNR too - right now I only have Depth Enhance set to +1, mpeg DNR at 0.

Panasonic just sent me a letter to extend the warranty upto 3 years for about $50. Think its worth it? Not sure what all it covers and how long do they take to fix issues, if they occur. Anyone else got such letter and are planning to take it?

I bought mine at a local brick-and-mortar Soundsaround store. I paid $298 CDN for it - a bit more than others I think, but considering no one in the city seems to carry it, except for the Video and Sound store that wanted $347!

It was very odd that Soundsaround opened all of the S97 boxes and removed the cable - one of the sales guys told me they did that so they could turn around and sell you a Monster HDMI cable for $150 - sheesh, that's ridiculous.

EDIT: I had them give me the free cable. :)

This is an example of a local store that shouldnt exist and why people are often better off going mail order - not for the absolute cheapest price but for a good deal from a reputable national channel. I think that if this is a Canadian chain I would complain to their head office or take an equivalent action.
I would never buy anything here - they are clearly committing a fraud as they are not giving you the full product as the manufacturer packed it ... and then selling it as new too boot.

I burned the firmware upgrade 540 to a CD-R and put it into my player. The screen flickered a bit and the player said it was loading/reading the disc. The screen flickered for about 7 seconds and then I got the screen that said "Completed. Please eject the disc." I did not get the opening screen that says "This player needs the update. Do you wan to do update?". It seems to have assumed I wanted it and started updating automatically. The sceen on the DVD player said "Good", which seems correct. I tried to see the firmware version on the Setup screen but it would not display it. The firmware version that is shown on my player's screen said 86H360. The firmware I had before I put the CD-R in was 85E528.

I'm confused. The upgrade did not go like it was described in the instructions on the first thread. Has my player been updated? I did not have time to watch anything yet so I do not know if the microblocking has gone away. I did notice that all the setting have been reset to factory default so something happened.

Anyone had this happen or do you know why this happened? Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.

Ken

Ken,

This is odd. The behavior that is described is that of a firmware update that isn't being accepted or needed. The S97 (normally) cannot be flashed back with the older firmware and the "360" firmware can't be flashed with 536, 540, or 541.

The factory default does occur after a update. I don't recall if the defaults also occur with a rejected update.

Where was 540 obtained? The S97 firmware thread? When was the player built (see back panel)?

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thank for the information. I don't understand...are you saying that my player, currently with 86H360 firmware, cannot be upgraded to 536, 540 and 541? I have not read this anywhere. Can you please confirm?

It is a long story...I bought it on Ebay from an online retailer and he said it was new. It was not new when I got it and it has no serial number and no manufacture date. It's not a huge deal since I got it pretty cheap and it seems to play well enough but the only thing not working is the firmware upgrade.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Ken

Oh, I forgot to add...I got the firmware off the S97 Firmware Thread and I was also emailed a copy of 540 from a buddy. I've tried the 536 and the 540 and got the same result. I tried the 540 with 2 different brands of CD-R and also tried a CD-RW. All gave the same result. I have not tried the 541 but I suspect it will be the same but I might just try it to confirm.

Do you know if the inside of the S97 is different from that of a S77? If the guy I got it from is very dishonest, there is a chance to took the parts from a S77 and put it into the S97 case. This might explain why there is no serial number. Anyone know what I can look for to tell me for sure whether it is one or the other? It might be tough since they are suppose to be pretty similar.

I saw a Panasonic S77 demo unit at Best Buy - it was so new they didn't even have the price tag under it! The case looked exactly like the S97, which was a big surprise to me. However, it did say clearly on the front panel that it was the S77. Wow, if there is an S77 inside yours I'd be calling the cops.

Does your S97 have a build date sticker anywhere on it?

360 cannot be "upgraded" to 536, 540, or 541. 360 is its own firmware line. No serial number or manufacturing date sticker? All bets are off. Yikes! Haven't seen the insides of the S77 but photos of the S97 (first version, before hardware change) are located in the first post of the thread. A *genuine* S97 would have the Genesis FLI2310LF deinterlacing chip.

Paul

Problem solved...I hope. I was getting a bit paronoid about my player being a "fake" because of how it was reacting to the firmware upgrade. In a last attempt, I tried the 541 upgrade and it worked! I am assuming that means someone had already installed the 540 and that is why it would not accept it (and I got the message that the update was complete). Paul had suggested this but I just assumed that someone would not have attempted to "flash" it before selling it to me. Also, I kept using a particular scene from Master and Commander as a reference and kept seeing micro blocking and a pink push. I just assumed the player did not accept the upgrade but now realize that this movie is a bad one to use as a reference. Besides, it kept showing that the firmware was 86H360.

Paul - After I flashed my player with the 541 firmware upgrade, it now reads that it is 86H362. I read somewhere on the S97 Firmware thread that this is equivalent to the 541. Is this correct? As a reference, can you please revise your first thread (of the S97 Firmware) to show this other line of firmware...86H360, 86H362, etc? It gets confusing because there are 2 firmware lines but this thread only refers to the 540 line. Also, you said the 86J360 cannot be upgraded to 540 or 541. As I said, the 541 worked on mine but it changed mine to 362 (the equivalent of 541). As a side note...if 360 has its own firmware line, is there a different way or flash to use to upgrade it? Is the 360 the line for the newer manufactured models?

I'm glad I don't have to fight with the seller to refund my money and then report them to the cops. Thanks for everyone's imput.

Ken

Paul - After I flashed my player with the 541 firmware upgrade, it now reads that it is 86H362. I read somewhere on the S97 Firmware thread that this is equivalent to the 541. Is this correct? As a reference, can you please revise your first thread (of the S97 Firmware) to show this other line of firmware...86H360, 86H362, etc? It gets confusing because there are 2 firmware lines but this thread only refers to the 540 line. Also, you said the 86J360 cannot be upgraded to 540 or 541. As I said, the 541 worked on mine but it changed mine to 362 (the equivalent of 541). Ken
The latest firmware download from http://www.mechwollier.de/pana_s97/DVDPUPDT.FRM contains both the 541 and 362 firmware; see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5949675&&#post5949675. After loading the firmware CD, I presume the S97 auto-detects which it needs.

A writedoc states, the 541 firmware contains both streams, 541 and 362. To the best of my knowledge, 540 does not have any other stream. 360 is for the newer series of S97.

What was so confusing is the intitial post indicated that the S97 had '528' before upgrading.

Paul

Glad you got things sorted out Ken! Whew.

Anyways, using umr's calibration software and my Eye One Pro, I checked my projector's calibration and I confirmed that my projector is indeed outputting at a gamma of 2.5. This is the Benq 8700 projector's default setting.

I am seeing some annoying macroblocking in some anime now - but using 480p output through HDMI (or component) "fixes" it. The MB effect is made in some scenes because of the pinkish/magenta tint, which usually occurs on anime characters' faces that are not evenly colored (ie. some tonal shifts over the face). Oh well. At least I don't notice it on the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd gig disc that just came out, and other anime with less-than-perfect transfers.

Oddly, the S97 could not prevent combing during playback of the Great Teacher Onizuka anime DVDs (doubtful anything can except a Teranex!). :( But fortunately I can only see them if I set closer than 1.75x screen width distance away. I also think the S97's Faroudja chip can recover faster than the HTPC - usually only takes a couple of frames!

Michael Chen (aka Michael TLC) was over last night as part of his eastern tour and we spent the evening calibrating my projector and plasma. The s-97 is currently connected into the projector and he confirmed the full video signal is coming through at +3/-8 as we have been discussing. We didn't spend much time on the player after he saw full range being output. So that will now be my new permanent setting. We did not have time to connect it to the plasma to check DVI output but he did mention that he has been seeing quite a few anomolies from hdmi connected to dvi which he attributes to either problems at the adapter or bit dropoff.

This is crazy stuff.

What's the main difference between this player & the Panasonic DVD-S77S ?? Is the cable that comes with this player good, or do you need to purchase a better cable? Connecting the Player like this:

Video: Directly to Toshiba 42" 16:9 CRT HDTV
Audio: Digital to HK receiver

on a side note....

I've read several reviews (print & web) on the new Silver series cables from Belkin... for far less money they offer exceptional performance... performing better than even Audio Quest!! While surfing their site, I noticed a new product... what the heck is this for???

pureav -.- com -slash- razorvision -slash- # (won't let me post links yet)

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

The S77 does not have ProLogicII, a slightly different case, and will not play PAL discs. There are supposed to be some circuitry differences as well, though externally and via the interface the players appear to be virtually identical.

The HDMI cable supplied (6 feet) is fine -- no problems. Mine eventually failed after connecting and disconnecting it several hundred times but in normal use it should be fine.

Paul

jakeman,

Out of curiousity, what were your other settings? For example, Auto1 or Auto2, any adjustments to gamma or sharpness in the player, TV type in the initial setup menu. I assume you are still at 720p hdmi YCbCr 4:2:2 that you mentioned in an earlier post. Also, what is your build date and firmware version?

You mentioned that you were going to put a call in to someone at Panasonic in Missasauga. Any news?

I wish there was an easy way to read the HDMI output so we could settle this issue. Kris Dearing uses a scope to read the IRE values but if I'm not mistaken that would only work on an analogue (component) output. Maybe there is some software application that can tell us the digital value of the information coming down the HDMI pipe. That way you could put up a video black test signal from DVE and if the only number coming out of the HDMI connection was 0 or 16 or whatever then you could tell what was going on. You could then show the 100 IRE window and do the same thing looking for 235.

Anyone have any ideas?

Mike

Paw. I am at auto1. Only other adjustments are av enhancer +1 and dnr +1. I pmed with Kris and he mentioned he reads 240 which I surmise is with his -1 contrast setting so it follows that +3 must be close to 254. Michael Chen looked at my settings with the 3r0 calibration disc and his colorfacts software and suggested I leave it at -3/+8 for the full video signal and then use the display contrast/brightness to bring brightness to reference black (16) and peak whites to where I like them. The idea is to give the display processor more room to float shadow detail and white detail. I leave contrast low because I like white detail in clouds, linen, snow etc rather than at reference white (235). He agreed that DVI was likely causing the differences with what I am seeing using hdmi throughout the video chain as mentioned earlier. My recommendation is to use the -3/+8 setting and if you see artifacts with component or DVI then dial it back to minimize them. You will probably have to go back and forth a few times with your calibration disc.

Jakeman,

Thanks for the info. Could you clarify your settings for me. By Auto1 do you mean "User1" and what is AV Enhancer +1?

I think he meant to say "Depth Enhancer" instead of AV enhancer. :)

Jake, did Michael use the colorfacts software to measure the light output of the bars or something similar, to confirm the -3/+8 behavior?

Hi Hugh. I did mean to say depth enhancer and auto1 is the picture menu>transfer mode setting. You had done some great research into the noise reduction settings last year and I am wondering if those settings need to be adjusted with the new contrast/brightness.

Max. Michael ran quite a few colorfacts tests but not on the bars themselves. I am sure he can clarify things for you when he returns to Calgary.

Hi Jakeman,

Regarding the noise reducers I generally leave them off. Though they can be beneficial at times, the more time I spent with them the more I realized I, for the most part, don't want them massaging the signal.

I've again attempted the +8/-3 settings but the contouring is just too much for comfort. I have noted, however, on my system that whenever contrast is reduced color saturation also requires similar reduction.

I am still convinced, perhaps incorrectly, the S97's video levels are not correct when displaying BTB and WTW info, the contouring due to non-linear compression/re-mapping of the signal rather than a HDMI->DVI problem. Hopefully someone can measure precisely the signal to shed more light into what is happening. Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things but the answer will steer my next upgrade.

Hugh. Thanks for the update on noise reduction. I don't think I can add anything further to our discussion. Because I am not seeing any artifacts and in light of Micheal Chen's observations I believe the difference is 8bit/12bit related. As you move away from -3/+8 where does the contouring stop?

Jake,

I see slight contouring regardless of which setting I use but leaving Brightness and contrast at zero produces the least and is barely perceptible. The more these settings are adjusted from the default position the more contouring I see. AFAIK the information encoded on a cd is 8 bit (0-255), in theory ;) I guess as long as the signal is sent as such and the receiving end has the same decoding capabilities contouring shouldn't be an issue.

Hi:

I don't have an S97, but I did receive a new S77, and apparently this is the best forum regarding it's features...most are shared with the S97. I posted these questions on other related threads with no success. Some are already answered here, but others are still floating and so I would like to try before testing on my Toshiba DLP.

* What changes when using the Dialog Enhancer? Is it a good thing to use?

* Has anyone tried the AV Enhancer Auto feature after applying the "initial settings" and AVIA/DE? Too much a difference, too little, or complete disaster?

* Why is Enhanced RGB recommended and not Standard, shouldn't Standard seem a more "natural" setting?

* I thought Multi Re-Master would have an auto setting, but this seems to only happen with the AV Enhancer in Auto. So, anyone had audio problems when using AV Enhancer Auto? Any audio improvements?

Enhanced RGB expands 16-235 RGB levels to 0-255 - this is only relevant for DVI-only (ie. 8 bit RGB) displays. Not recommended as it clips highlight detail. But, some people use it because of obscure display limitations.

Enhanced RGB expands 16-235 RGB levels to 0-255 - this is only relevant for DVI-only (ie. 8 bit RGB) displays. Not recommended as it clips highlight detail. But, some people use it because of obscure display limitations.

But RGB appears at 2 different "menus", one is for Color Space and the other is RGB Range, which you may set Standard or Enhanced.

Is it that when you choose 4:4:4 the other setting is unavailable?

I believe Enhanced RGB refers to the range. 4:4:4 only applies to YCbCr output, and isn't an option if your display device can only accept RGB (it isn't selecting when hooked up to my projector, for example).

I forget where the menus are - I think the Enhanced RGB can only be selected in the S97's setup menu from the Setup button on the remote.

You are right that choosing 4:4:4 will not allow you to chose Enhanced RGB in the setup menu, as the latter doesn't apply to YCbCr anyways. :)

Julio,

The dialog enhance gives a slight boost to the midrange frequencies.

The AV Enahancer is counter productive to the AVIA/DVE for most people. In order to pass "Blacker than Black" out of the S97 the player's brightness control usually has to be set to +1 or greater. When set to "Auto" the individual picture and some audio settings are disabled. I don't find it a disaster to set to "auto" but I can do better with individual settings.

The RGB enahncement is for those who need it. If one is using RGB for the configurable HDMI Color Space (see manual and first post of the S97 FAQ thread) then "Standard" outputs (unscientific explanation) a "brigher" picture and may help those having problems with achieving a proper black level. The "Enhanced" outputs a "dimmer" picture for those who do not need the extra boost. However, I don't use the RGB Color Space but 4:4:4 (see first post of FAQ) and the RGB enahncement is active only for the RGB HDMI color space. I have HDMIi RGB set to enhanced on my player but only because, to my eyes, the RBB enhanced and the HDMI 4:4:4 have equal "brightness" and is useful for comparison purposes.

The Multi-Remaster works from the analog outputs. I use the HDMI output for video so haven't used the feature much with movies. But, I have used it for two-channel audio and have listened with electrostatic headphones. I find the effect subtle but interesting. The highs, in my listening, are clearer in setting "3" but I'm not certain that they aren't being etched. In any event I don't find the effect terrible or disasterous.

Paul

Thanks Max and Paul, I think now I'm ready for testing.

Hi everyone. I'm going to ask again this question I asked and went unanswer. After reading positive recomendations for firmware 541 I made the upgrade from 540. My S97 came with 536. The upgrade finished without problems so I proceed to configure the S97 as suggested from the first thread. Now I discovered that the S97 would not let me choose HDMI Color Space. It only has the option RGB. Before the upgrde I was able to choose between the three. My TV is a rear projection JVC HD-52Z575 which is connected hdmi to hdmi. I try reinitialize but it did not help. Has any of you had this problem? Do you beleive that the reset sequence describe in the Firmware thread could help. Thanks.

Try unplugging the HDMI cable and do the panel reset. Good luck!

Am able to choose RGB, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 via HDMI to Panasonic display with 541. The update does reset the player to original factory settings.

Paul

Am able to choose RGB, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 via HDMI to Panasonic display with 541. The update does reset the player to original factory settings.

Paul

Yes I know that the DVD is reset to the factory defaults. But after the firmware upgrade I lost those options RGB, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. I'm going to try unplugging the HDMI cable and do the panel reset as maxleung suggested. Than you.

restgarc,

Did you remember to go right back to the beginning and start in the Setup menu?

You have to go to the HDMI tab and select "HDMI Video Mode - On".

I remember missing that once after a firmware upgrade, so I thought I would mention it. It could be something that simple and if you have done the reset you would still not solve the problem until that option was chosen.

Mike

restgarc,

Did you remember to go right back to the beginning and start in the Setup menu?

You have to go to the HDMI tab and select "HDMI Video Mode - On".

I remember missing that once after a firmware upgrade, so I thought I would mention it. It could be something that simple and if you have done the reset you would still not solve the problem until that option was chosen.

Mike


Yes. I went from the beginning. The strange thing is that with the two upgrades I have made "HDMI Video Mode" has always stayed on. And I have not read that when you do the upgrade you should disconnect the HDMI cable.

Haven't seen the problem. Check with a friend to see if they have an HDMI set to test on. If resetting the player hasn't helped maybe another attempt at updating the firmware will help. If that doesn't work a service call may be in order.

Paul

Hey Paul and friends:

The friend restgarc will check with is me, he, heee. After checking the performance of his S97 on my Toshiba is when I decided to buy the S77. We'll let you know about the test.

Now to my experience during the weekend. As stated before, my unit is an S77 but many features are shared with the S97 and this thread is the one that best covers them.

I followed most initial settings, but I chose to leave color, sharpness, filters, etc at 0. Saved them in User 1 and then used AVIA for setting the TV. The first thing I noticed with regards to my previous JVC progressive player is that Sharpness was 15 and now is 35, more than double. Maybe it's an inherent thing of my TV's HDMI connection or could be the S77; what do you think?

I had to step up brightness a bit and everything else stayed about the same.

To check, I used the I Robot DVD, which I think offers one of the best transfers with solid contrasts and sharp images. At 720p, the TV's natural, the image is definitely better, without much difference at 1080i. But I like the image to cover most of the screen, so for big ratioed movies I'll go with 480p and for smallers 720p, for which the TV locks at FULL.

In general, things look better than with my previous player, and then I tried the Auto AV Enhancer. Things looked even better. I know this is not supposed to be the case, but apparently Panasonic did a good job of cleaning the image without harming color balance.

During Sonny's interrogatory scene, which is a bit dark with lots of shadows, when I compared without the Auto Enhancer, Will Smith's face was a bit grainy. I suppose the digital filters manage to clean up the image and the face looks better with the Enhancer.

Also, the Enhancer "lighted" some dark areas, juuust enough to get more definition of Will's face in darker area of the room. The whole lighting of the scene looked better balanced with the Auto Enhancer.

Because of this, I did the TV calibration with the Auto Enhancer active and check on the differences. The most evident changes were on Black Level and Hue. I had to take black about 2 clicks darker, but Hue went from R2 to R6. I expected a counter balance for Color (Saturation), but it only went down 1 click. Everything else I felt was the same.

What I expect the Enhancer is to maintain those levels, as it will apply those dynamics to every DVD. The best thing is that the filters are working all the time, probably correcting things I can't during the whole of a material.

I'm not saying "Everyone, turn your Autos ON", but you know, try it and compare. Maybe it's a good marriage between my Toshiba and the Panny, but maybe their technology approach works.

At this time, I'm satisfied with this player. Thanks to Paul for all the technical advice.

Hello Julio Bro!

You're very welcome. The change in sharpness is not surprising. When introducing a new player to a display it is not uncommon to have to recalibrate the display and the new changes may include adjusting sharpness. Doesn't sound like a problem.

Sounds like youi have a good setup. Enjoy!

Paul

Hey guys I am very interested in purchasing the Panasonic S97S upscaling dvd player but my television only has a dvi input. Could I use an HDMI to DVI cable? Stu

Yes. thanks I was just worried that the upscaling process might be effected if it goes from hdmi to dvi

hdmi and dvi carry the same digital signal, HDMI just adds audio as well.

I read in Sound and Vision magazine that there's a difference between HDMI and DVI. Although both carry a digital video signal, HDMI's range is bigger because it's designed for a higher bitrate, if that's the term.

DVI can work with 8 bits max and HDMI goes up to 12 bits, and I think the newer protocol can carry up to 18 bits. So, more bits, more information, better everything. That's why it's the standard for hi-def.

I read in Sound and Vision magazine that there's a difference between HDMI and DVI. Although both carry a digital video signal, HDMI's range is bigger because it's designed for a higher bitrate, if that's the term.

DVI can work with 8 bits max and HDMI goes up to 12 bits, and I think the newer protocol can carry up to 18 bits. So, more bits, more information, better everything. That's why it's the standard for hi-def.


Thats the magazine he borrowed from me. Good mag but Perfect Vision is better.

Anyone know how JPGs look via this DVD player and HDMI, can they be "upscaled"? Here is the issue.

I have a Panasonic LCD but JPGs look poor via any of the Video, Component, S video inputs via DVD player, Computer, etc. The TV does not have a DVI or VGA input. The manual says that the HDMI input is not for a PC signal so a DVI to HDMI converter cable is not the answer. However, I am wondering if a upconverting DVD player would improve the quality, maybe approaching what I get via the computer and computer monitor.

Also, a related question, how fast do the JPGs load. My files are 3-5 Meg in size so loading time may be an issue too.

Anyone know how JPGs look via this DVD player and HDMI, can they be "upscaled"? Here is the issue.

I have a Panasonic LCD but JPGs look poor via any of the Video, Component, S video inputs via DVD player, Computer, etc. The TV does not have a DVI or VGA input. The manual says that the HDMI input is not for a PC signal so a DVI to HDMI converter cable is not the answer. However, I am wondering if a upconverting DVD player would improve the quality, maybe approaching what I get via the computer and computer monitor.

Also, a related question, how fast do the JPGs load. My files are 3-5 Meg in size so loading time may be an issue too.

You will be happy to know that the s97 does JPEGS very well. I have a 92" screen and was pleased with the results. Mind you no 92" pic will be as clean a a 8x10 on a computer screen but still good ntl and loading times were also fast.

Anyone running one of these with a TH-50PHD8UK? need a DVD to go with mine...

Who carries the Panasonic S97 now? Can't seem to find them locally. The salesman at the local Tweeter told me they are discontinued and have been for some time. I can find them on the web, but would like to get one today or tomorrow locally (new SXRD being delivered tomorrow) :)

Who carries the Panasonic S97 now? Can't seem to find them locally. The salesman at the local Tweeter told me they are discontinued and have been for some time. I can find them on the web, but would like to get one today or tomorrow locally (new SXRD being delivered tomorrow) :)

I'm guessing you live in the UK (I do too).

The S97 was discontinued in the summer of 2005, around June I believe, god knows why, Panasonic UK must be a bunch of morons.

I picked up a S97 from a small store in London, it was a display model, but had never been used, so I was fine to accept it, it was £140.

Good luck in finding a UK model, I think eBay is maybe you're best bet, but you'll be looking at paying a premium, around £160 - 170 that ive seen.

Actually I live in Chicagoland area. Still can't seem to find it.

I got mine from Vanns a few months ago, great price and fast service. This model sells quickly online, so good luck..

My local Best Buy just got a new shipment of S77s - so maybe the S97 was phased out in favour of the S77?

No, Panasonic improves one then the other, apparently they don't do both at the same time...you know, market strategies. If you really the want the S97, just wait for it.

I hear this guy is a really reputable seller :)

ebay Item ID: 5817631182 (link doesn't seem to be working)

http://cm.*********/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=8368095&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=5817631182&lk=URL

I am sorry if this has been asked before but has anybody used S97 with Infocus 7200 or 7205 & if so, does it show macroblocking with Infocus 7200/7205 & does the image fill the screen at 720p?
Thanks.

I bought my S97s from www.vanns.com Great Price fast delivery, when they have them in stock :)

Who carries the Panasonic S97 now? Can't seem to find them locally. The salesman at the local Tweeter told me they are discontinued and have been for some time. I can find them on the web, but would like to get one today or tomorrow locally (new SXRD being delivered tomorrow) :)

i bought an S77 at Frye's in chicago area yesterday - they had 3 S97's there...

Vanns.com has them in stock at a good price. I just bought one today to hook upto my Infocus 7200.

Reread what I wrote! I stated that 480i was output via Component out whenever HDMI is turned on; see page 14 of the manual (the words used are: When "HDMI Video Mode" is set to "On", Output from the COMPONENT VIDEO OUT terminal will be "480i")

Does the S97S or S77 output 480i via composite when HDMI is "ON" and set for 720P? The manual states simultaneous component video out at 480i but what about simultaneous composite video output at 480i?

On my Z2, I can switch from Input 2(HDMI/DVI) to Input 1(Component) and when reviewing the S97S, it is in 480p mode using component, even when the HDMI cables are hooked up at the same time.

Does the S97S or S77 output 480i via composite when HDMI is "ON" and set for 720P? The manual states simultaneous component video out at 480i but what about simultaneous composite video output at 480i?

I checked and, at least, you can get S-Video output simultaneous to HDMI at any resolution. Don't know about the RCA connections.

I checked and, at least, you can get S-Video output simultaneous to HDMI at any resolution. Don't know about the RCA connections.

Thanks! I'm sure if it downconverts to 480i and outputs to S-Video it will do the same to composite.