Originally posted by Sango
It looks like you need a PAL/NTSC converter because the player is outputting the PAL video signal.

Not exactly. When you play PAL DVD, oyu will only get audio.
But, if you play PAL VCD, you will get video and audio.
You will see odd de-interlace lines, like saw teeth.

BTW, my display is Panny 47wxd63 RPTV.

Compare to DVB318, the MB is NOT noticeable to my eyes w/ S97.
The same scene, I will see white spot left over w/ DVB318, it is pure black w/ S97.

Keeping play. :)

You're welcome!

I'm still curious about them though! Maybe there's something we missed.

Paul

Well I do notice a difference right on the fly right when I change the TV type mode because the GUI itself gets affected which is a very good example. It's like the color theme changed a bit even thou I didn't use any tests. I can say the it does the same thing on my first Panny as well because that's what I recall.

I just got done comparing the raw PQ between both my Zenith DVB318 and Panasonic S97S on my Toshiba 30HF84 HD tube set. The DVB318 was set to 1080i via component and the S97S was set to 1080i via HDMI. The S97S wins hands down delivering the best PQ in 1080i with no visible artifacts to be found. I didn't notice any macroblocking with the S97S in darker scenes in any mode. The DVB318 had very noticable macroblocking and also had pixels that ghosted around the screen on fast moving dark scenes. The blacks also had a greenish tint on the DVB318, but on the S97S the blacks are very black and defined with no macroblocking to be found and no ghosting pixels. 480P on the S97S was also superb and definitely slightly better then my RP82 on the same set. There really wasn't a whole lot of difference between 480P and 1080i on my setup with the S97S as there was with the DVB318 due to Panasonic's superior MPEG decoder.

The player looks sharp especially with the glowing blue bar hitting the clear dvd tray! It also feels fairly solid and the DVD mechanism is very smooth and quiet. So far I am very impressed with this player and Panasonic has definitely did it again with the S97S. Here is yet another GIANT killer by Panasonic and they are being applauded right now by all of us HT freaks that are buying thousands of them at a time!

I forgot to add when I observed the player, I also went through the other kind of display mode, like Dynamic, Cinema1 and all the other stuff, I didn't a black/white crush either. I did notice the color theme changed thou but I pretty much stuck it at normal too.

Paul, I guess it's a display setup issue?
--------------------------------------------
hurtz777

Did you also compare the analog audio for the S97 vs. RP82? If you did, please provide your input.

When I listed, both very good, couldn't tell who's better!

Oh yeah, you should put your FL Dimmer to Auto, so you can save the life on the hot blue light lol!!

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Hugh2,

I'm about to reach that same conclusion with the "Depth Enhancer" and "3D-NR" as well but wanted to try a few more things. There are so many permutaions of the options that maybe some combination will cause them to have an effect.

Paul

Well, I continued looking for something on DVE which would show a difference when using the 3D-NR and I was successful, it appears the 3D-NR does have a purpose afterall. Title 17, chapter 6 (model w/ chip art) always has a lot of noise in the large grey block and smaller blocks. I can easily see the filter working here. It reduces the noise and seems to also slow it down. The color blocks have different intensities of noise for which the filter (at highest setting) will completely eliminate on some.

Now for the depth enhancer thing.

Sango I haven't tried the analog outputs and I probably will never use them since my Sony ES receiver has excellent DACs in it. I remember the RP82 sounding a little flat when listening to DVD-A through the 5.1 analog outs. I know the RP82 did have the entry level Burr Brown DACs in it though so I would assume this Panasonic has at least the equivelant or better.

Oh really. I didn't even the 82 had Burr Browns, I was under the assumption the whole time is was one of Panasonic's DSP chips!

I found a FAQ page for the RP91 which has an wonderfull service mode table attached and I've confirmed most of the mode codes work on the S97 as well.

Various combinations of button pressing may enable you to retrieve the following self diagnostic info.

Jitter check
DVD laser drive current measurement
CD laser drive current measurement
Version display
Region display
Using hours of CD laser
Using hours of DVD laser
Using hours of SP motor

Here's the link, the table is just over half way down the page

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=panasonic+Dvd+player+%22tv+type%22/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=2/H=0/IPC=ca/SHE=0/SIG=11luafequ/*-http%3A//home.cogeco.ca/~hdtvguy/A_%20FAQ_RP91.htm

Have fun!

Originally posted by AkaStp
I have not seen any appreciable difference in the TV type settings over HDMI-DVI. However, there is a noticeable difference over progressive/component. For example, selecting Projection results in a darker picture than standard.

I just performed the DVE test again switching back and forth from Direct tv to projection and my finding are same as before, no difference whatsover on the brightness and grey scale ramp pattern. (using component)

I find It's difficult to can't get a feel for any difference when playing video due to the there being too much time with blank screen between changes therefore I lose my reference. Using test pattern, however, certain bars on the brightness can be set certain bars so they are just barely visible making it easy to determine minor changes in brightness.

How are you testing this?

Yup, you're on it AkaStp, which is exactly what I noticed. I tried other settings, the color looks more satuated and slightly different brightness.

Most likely the test won't show anything because the unit does a very good job.

Hugh, you can just view anything and it's very noticable. The materal I use to test my TV is good for me to tell in a snap.
----------------------------------------
I have more input on my experience on my S97 vs. the RP91 in scalability. The S97 sure beats it and it just looks very superb and top notch.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I haven't fully decided but, in my case, I'm leaning towards the Panasonic. In my situation the macroblocking is easier to ignore than the jaundice. However, if one's display allows for HD/SD matrix selection at 1080i/720p the Sony might get the nod for overall "average viewing" PQ.


Wow! Is this thread ever huge. Even to someone who knows how to use the search engine, I have to say looking through this thread is definitely overwhelming. (End of editorial).

While reading Paul's comparison of the S97 vs. the Sony 975 in Post #1, the paragraph above can be found. Interestingly enough, I can not understand why this statement is being made. If even Paul re-reads his own comments, it should be evident that very few positive comments were made about the Sony. The closest I can find deals with the "possibility" that your display can deal with a SD vs HD color matrix. Though this is the first I've heard about this topic (after spending a year in this forum), it seems to be a new issue raised by Paul.

I am not challenging the issue, because it may be unique to the Panasonic world/terminology. On other displays, I have to wonder if selection of the "proper matrix" is automatic. Still, that is not my point.

My point is that positives for the 975 are EXTREMELY difficult to find in the S97 vs. 975 comparison. And, if Paul really thinks the 975 HAS THE ABILITY to perform better on average, he never says why. And, from the view of a person hoping to find the real advantages of one player vs. the other, I'm left disappointed at this lack of explanation. (Certainly, the overtones point strongly to the Panasonic, which make the quote above even more perplexing)!

Obviously, there is a ton of work yet to be done -- based on the framework layed out in the first post -- but it is my hope to encourage further explanation for those seeking to review units against each other. Not only do we want to know the drawbacks, but we also would like to know the advantages.

gp

Hey all,

I just found the S97 and the Sony 975 at the local Soundtrack (Ultimate Electronics elsewhere). The Sony was on display, but the Pany was not, though it was in stock. They also had it for $383 (based on the $399 "list"). I just mentioned that Panasonic was selling it for $299 and the price got knocked down to where it should be.

Anyway, Very impressed with the picture at 480p, but can't as yet utilize the HDMI. They sold me the DVI adapter, but they gave me the female HDMI to male DVI. The HDMI cable that comes bundled with the Panny is female on both ends! So, I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what the scaling looks like on my Hitachi 51SWX20B.

Jeff

I recently bought the Sharp LC26GD4U from OneCall yesterday after three attempts to match the low price from an authorized Sharp dealer. I should have it by Friday and test it with the Panasonic DVD-S97.

It may be a good idea to see how the DVD-S97 fares depending on the input display (CRT, rear/front projector, plasma, LCD, and LDP) and brand name.

I have decided to take pictures of AVIA test and the anime I've been using to test the player.

Note: My camera is OK but it has trouble getting pictures from Hitachi TV so I did the best I could. I also had to turn down my TV's contast from 50% to 40% for the camera to at least take them properly because the camera kept making the sort of washed out due to the contrast I use.

You'll notice in some pick you see some banding or discoloration as one of the camera's issue. Also, the contrast/brightness is affected in the pictures too because of the camera however some of them do look very nice.

Watching these anime on my TV looks awesome while getting them on camera... not really! I need Jason's camera, that will fix it lol!

AVIA + Misc (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/dvdtest%20+%20misc.zip) - When you look at the steps and ramps, there is no crushing of any sort.. The steps futhest right step looks like a crush because of the camera. Also note that the furthest left and right step is about less than 1/2 the width of the other steps because of the overscan (doh!!).

BTW: Sango is in one of the pics!! Can you spot which pic it is?

Gundam Seed (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/GS.zip)
Inu-Yasha (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/IY.zip)
Last Exile (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/LE.zip)
Sugar (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/s.zip)

Sango

Originally posted by GreggPenn
Wow! Is this thread ever huge. Even to someone who knows how to use the search engine, I have to say looking through this thread is definitely overwhelming. (End of editorial).

While reading Paul's comparison of the S97 vs. the Sony 975 in Post #1, the paragraph above can be found. Interestingly enough, I can not understand why this statement is being made. If even Paul re-reads his own comments, it should be evident that very few positive comments were made about the Sony. The closest I can find deals with the "possibility" that your display can deal with a SD vs HD color matrix. Though this is the first I've heard about this topic (after spending a year in this forum), it seems to be a new issue raised by Paul.

I am not challenging the issue, because it may be unique to the Panasonic world/terminology. On other displays, I have to wonder if selection of the "proper matrix" is automatic. Still, that is not my point.

My point is that positives for the 975 are EXTREMELY difficult to find in the S97 vs. 975 comparison. And, if Paul really thinks the 975 HAS THE ABILITY to perform better on average, he never says why. And, from the view of a person hoping to find the real advantages of one player vs. the other, I'm left disappointed at this lack of explanation. (Certainly, the overtones point strongly to the Panasonic, which make the quote above even more perplexing)!

Obviously, there is a ton of work yet to be done -- based on the framework layed out in the first post -- but it is my hope to encourage further explanation for those seeking to review units against each other. Not only do we want to know the drawbacks, but we also would like to know the advantages.

gp
Perfectly Stated Gregg! While Paul Bigalow has made a tremendous effort here, the evidence indicates that everything was carefully planned and timed. Is is good to let one person dominate and saturate a major release? What were his motives? Ego?

In my opinion Paul is to close to the subject and has lost his objectivity.
After reading the new Denon player meltdown threads here previously, how could anyone in there right mind ever buy a product which incorporates the Genesis/Faroudja FLI2310LF with its MACRO BLOCKING feature?!? And yet this chip/company is worshiped here (and used to be at Secrets)...

There is no talk of the number of conversions/scalings and processing stages involved for each resolution when used with common displays. For instance with my 60" Sony GWIII the best picture quality is with 480p component, even though the Sony has a DVI input. And I'll be happy to let others explain why, as I don't want to spoil the fun.

Originally Posted by Hurtz777
I just got done comparing the raw PQ between both my Zenith DVB318 and Panasonic S97S on my Toshiba 30HF84 HD tube set. The DVB318 was set to 1080i via component and the S97S was set to 1080i via HDMI. The S97S wins hands down delivering the best PQ in 1080i with no visible artifacts to be found. I didn't notice any macroblocking with the S97S in darker scenes in any mode. The DVB318 had very noticable macroblocking and also had pixels that ghosted around the screen on fast moving dark scenes. The blacks also had a greenish tint on the DVB318, but on the S97S the blacks are very black and defined with no macroblocking to be found and no ghosting pixels. 480P on the S97S was also superb and definitely slightly better then my RP82 on the same set. There really wasn't a whole lot of difference between 480P and 1080i on my setup with the S97S as there was with the DVB318 due to Panasonic's superior MPEG decoder. Hurtz –

Thanks for the review! Do you recall, when watching the S97 in 480p, how the macroblocking was in comparison to the 318? Better/worse/same?

Thanks n advance!

I ordered my S97s from onecall on Saturday and recieved it yesterday. Very happy thus far although I did miss the free shipping promotion. I'm having one problem. Avia is showing nearly 20 pixels cropped. Here's a pic. It looks like a zoom problem. I've tried all the zooms on the panasonic and my Mits 61725. Any ideas what I can do to change it. Very happy with the pic though. 1080i looks better on my display then 720p. Wierd since that's the case with my cable box as well. I would have thought differnetly considering the native resolution of 720p on the Mits. Also I didn't have the Avia menu abnormality.

I forgot to mention I watched Monsters Inc. and Hell Boy last night and didn't notice any macroblocking. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. I was looking for it but didn't see it. Maybe the Mits 61725 does a better job with it. Anyone else have this combo?

Originally posted by Sango
Yup, you're on it AkaStp, which is exactly what I noticed. I tried other settings, the color looks more satuated and slightly different brightness.

Most likely the test won't show anything because the unit does a very good job.

Strange, the color test patterns I viewed showed no increase in saturation. I don't understand the meaning of the last sentence here, could you explain how a player performing a "good job" could negate the usefullness of test patterns?

[i]Hugh, you can just view anything and it's very noticable. The materal I use to test my TV is good for me to tell in a snap.[/B]

View anything but test patterns you mean?

I see you've posted some pictures in a later post, can you take some photos of these "tv type" differences and post them for us?

Unless two images are side by side determining color/brightness differences using only the human eye is extemely unreliable. Seeing as there is a considerable delay between viewing the two images I attempted to reduce the unreliability by establishing some visual reference levels using the pluge bars on a test disk. This method may not be any more reliable than yours so I take some photos of images to see if this tells the tale.

In 480P I noticed no macroblocking at all on the S97S while the DVB318 had a horrible 480P PQ due to the bad Omega MPEG decoder in it. The DVB318 had very noticable macroblocking in 480P and 1080i. The S97S is definitely in another league from the DVB318.

Thanks Hurtz! Looks like I'll be ordering an S97 later today.

Sango,

Just fyi, I called Jason at Onecall yesterday and he declined the free shipping.

As we discussed my setup, he was quick to harshly criticize my panny ptl500u citing some of the known shortcomings of this unit. He even said at one point that he would not recommend that unit to his family members (whatever!). I hope they don't train all their sales staff to be as critical as this guy. Frankly, I'm not sure I want to buy from them even though they are one of the few with stock at the present. Seems like they are getting fat and happy and have forgotten common sales skills / decency.

Sango, thanks for the heads-up though on the "potential" free shipping.

Originally posted by corybuff
I don't know if this question has been addressed..but does anyone know if this player plays Dvd +R and Dvd +RW discs. There is no mention in the specs and I know that Panasonic is not in the Plus camp but I thought I remembered some time back in this forum that people speculated that the S97 would play these discs..Anyone???

Cory,

I have various Panasonic DVD players from the coveted DVD-H1000 (1999 vintage) and forward. All of them have always played DVD+R discs with no problem. I have used DVD+R discs bitset to DVD-ROM at burn time as well as discs left at DVD+R native and have never had a problem playing any of them, so I am not sure what all the worry is here.

I have the following players:

DVD-H1000
RV31
RP82
XP30
DVD-F85
Denon DVD-1600
DVD-S97 (on the way)

They all play DVD+R in any form.

In any case, these days, I always use bitsetting on my DVD burner to force all of my burned DVDs to DVD-ROM anyway (whether they are DVD+R or DVD+RW). This will insure they will play anywhere regardless.

Hugh2 - completely agree with your statements above. While I'm not doubting Sango's ability to easily discern differences in PQ by changing the TV type setting, I do think it makes more sense to use some sort of reference pattern. Sango's definitive statements about the significant differences don't really offer many specifics in terms of what changes and how he is noticing these changes. I for one am pretty bad at these things but also played around with some of the pluge and gray ramp patterns on DVE and flipped through the various TV type settings and didn't notice any differences (would be much easier if the options was in the display menus and you didnt' have to stop the disc and go to the main setup menus).

I am also still confused about which option to even pick for my TV assuming this feature did make a difference. As I mentioned above I have a 50" Samsung DLP RPTV. I know that "Plasma TV" and "CRT Projector" are not right so that basically leaves "LCD TV/Projector" and "Projection TV". To me, "LCD TV/Projector" would be for LCD flat panels and "projector" is just confusing - to me that means a front projector. "Projection TV" seems to be a default for rear projection TVs (it could included LCD RPTVs, DLP RPTVs, LCoS RPTVs, etc) - but I could be reading into this completely wrong.

What are other DLP users setting this to?

Originally posted by deekz
Seems like they are getting fat and happy and have forgotten common sales skills / decency.


I have purchased numerous things from them and they have always delivered wonderful service, fast shipping and great prices.

No complaints here!

Originally posted by EricScott
What are other DLP users setting this to?

I am using Projection TV since my Sammy DLP is considered a rear projection tv. I havent tested any other settings.

Originally posted by reincarnate
Perfectly Stated Gregg! While Paul Bigalow has made a tremendous effort here, the evidence indicates that everything was carefully planned and timed. Is is good to let one person dominate and saturate a major release? What were his motives? Ego?

reincarnate

This is really a pretty obnoxious and uncalled for statement. While I agree that Paul may be too knee deep in this now to form completely objective opinions, I think he has gone way above and beyond the call to provide accurate and detailed information and more importantly to answer 54 pages!!! of our questions (plus I don't know how many in the Sony thread). I for one applaud him for it and don't think you really are in any position to criticize his efforts.

If you have a different opinion then state it, but don't waste your time or ours picking apart his methods or motives. That's just stupid.

Originally posted by deekz
Sango,

Just fyi, I called Jason at Onecall yesterday and he declined the free shipping.

As we discussed my setup, he was quick to harshly criticize my panny ptl500u citing some of the known shortcomings of this unit. He even said at one point that he would not recommend that unit to his family members (whatever!). I hope they don't train all their sales staff to be as critical as this guy. Frankly, I'm not sure I want to buy from them even though they are one of the few with stock at the present. Seems like they are getting fat and happy and have forgotten common sales skills / decency.

Sango, thanks for the heads-up though on the "potential" free shipping.

deekz -

What is the ptl500u? It's not the AE500, which I have, is it? And what "known" shortcomings?

Originally posted by RockStrongo
I am using Projection TV since my Sammy DLP is considered a rear projection tv. I havent tested any other settings.

So I guess you are using the same logic as I am. :)

I'm sure there are just as many positive stories about them . No doubt their prices are competitive.

I have no reason to diss them. Just telling you guys what i experienced.

Basically I was asking if he could suggest an alternative dvd player and I mentioned my equipment to help him understand my needs, but instead of any alternative, I just received criticism on the ptl500u. No need to drag this out further...just my .02 usd.

What are your opinions on the included HDMI cable? He suggested a third party one for best performance. Is this added expense really necessary for a 2 meter run?

I made mention of the issues known on the ptae500/ptl500, like vb and hotspotting, and other issues. In the system deekz was using, I would not guarantee that the s97 would be able to overcome some of the issues with that projector, and result in a great picture. It may, it also may not. And I wasn't being overly critical, just honest. I, by the way, have a stack of 20 ptae500's that are all defective, all with multiple issues, all of which have been to panasonic service more than once, and have come back with the same issues.

I do hope that the ae700 they are shipping now, has none of the old ae500 issues, price-the general market, it would be a great unit. I haven't had the chance to test one, though will be doing so with an s97 here shortly.

So deekz, sorry for being "overly critical" you had asked what I thought/my opinion, and I told you.

reincarnate:

Comments like that are uncalled for, Paul has done a great job in being as unbiased as possible. My suggestion is for you to do your own testing/review on the 975, and make sure to be as in-depth, so that folks can make their decisions based on a similart depth of knowledge.

Originally posted by GreggPenn
Wow! Is this thread ever huge. Even to someone who knows how to use the search engine, I have to say looking through this thread is definitely overwhelming. (End of editorial).

While reading Paul's comparison of the S97 vs. the Sony 975 in Post #1, the paragraph above can be found. Interestingly enough, I can not understand why this statement is being made. If even Paul re-reads his own comments, it should be evident that very few positive comments were made about the Sony. The closest I can find deals with the "possibility" that your display can deal with a SD vs HD color matrix. Though this is the first I've heard about this topic (after spending a year in this forum), it seems to be a new issue raised by Paul.

I am not challenging the issue, because it may be unique to the Panasonic world/terminology. On other displays, I have to wonder if selection of the "proper matrix" is automatic. Still, that is not my point.

My point is that positives for the 975 are EXTREMELY difficult to find in the S97 vs. 975 comparison. And, if Paul really thinks the 975 HAS THE ABILITY to perform better on average, he never says why. And, from the view of a person hoping to find the real advantages of one player vs. the other, I'm left disappointed at this lack of explanation. (Certainly, the overtones point strongly to the Panasonic, which make the quote above even more perplexing)!

Obviously, there is a ton of work yet to be done -- based on the framework layed out in the first post -- but it is my hope to encourage further explanation for those seeking to review units against each other. Not only do we want to know the drawbacks, but we also would like to know the advantages.

gp
Yeah, this is just one “huge” thread !

Sort of like the New York Times is one “huge” newspaper.

I find your conclusions of Paul’s work to be analogous to reading the first paragraph of the front page of said newspaper. (i.e. - While reading Paul's comparison of the S97 vs. the Sony 975 in Post #1).

If you had read the ENTIRE thread and followed the day to day issues – rather than making such a critique on Paul’s work…… I believe that you would have noticed that Paul has bent over backwards to be diplomatic on his evaluation of the Sony and has stated that it is a “fine player”, that in his opinion one could not go wrong with the purchase of either player and in many ways it comes down to a matter of personal preference concerning the attributes of each. Also, if I recall correctly, he readily admits that ALOT more work has to be done to completely evaluate the plusses and minuses of each player.

He even suggests that if you presently have an excellent old school DVD player and your TV has an excellent scaler – there would be little need to purchase the Panasonic.

Your comments about Paul’s work remind me of people in high school and college that never read the book – but wrote their papers based upon the Cliff Notes.

Originally posted by Rich4av
I checked the PAL DVD playback on my projector:

- Through component, I got 50Hz refresh rate, PAL signal.

- Through HDMI, I got 50Hz refresh rate, 720p/1080i.

This clears the PAL playback issue... With a 50Hz-capable pj, motion is quite smooth.

That hitted the nail on the head, Rich4av. Your projector can play both NTSC/PAL fine while my Hitachi can't. There is no NTSC - PAL conversion on the S97 either.

Originally posted by pocoloco
Rich, you should be using Enhanced color range with your HT1000. Standard has elevated blacks which are pretty obvious when you view 2.35 material. Enhanced color range brings black levels down to where they should be at the same time passes BTB/WTW info.

Curiously, the reverse is true for my Hitachi 51S715. Enhanced mode crushes the white, so I have to turn it back to Normal. Each display is behaving differently for this mode so test it out and adjust to your liking.

Originally posted by reincarnate
Is is good to let one person dominate and saturate a major release? What were his motives? Ego?

What were your motives in posting this?

If you do not like the thread, then stop reading it.

I for one am glad that Paul did this research. It has been very helpful for me. I have been through 3 dvd players now. The Panny has been exceptional so far and his review has been accurate.

So, Paul, please ignore these types of posts. I thank you for your efforts.

Gregg,

The first sentence in the comparison states what I think:

Picture: Leaning towards Panasonic. In my case, the major showdown is between macroblocking and color accuracy.

That's it. That's the focus of the comparison. That's why the statement is being made. The indication I'm getting from this thread is that for many people the decision of the S97 *is* boiling down to macroblocking. Then there's the Sony. No marcroblocking but it can have an issue with color accuracy -- that's my take. Have a look at the Sony "brain dump" FAQ section if its performance data is desired.

To me, if one is going to purchase either of the players sight-unseen, the best comparison is to take the FAQs for both players, print them out, sit them side-by-side, and then compare the various points. If I thought either player was *bad* I would have said so. To me, neither player is obviously bad so there isn't a *bad* choice to be made. Also, I think both players are *good*, so there's only a *good* choice to be made. I'm thinking that for most people, the anxiety is in choosing what is the *best* choice. Making the so-called *best* choice, sight unseen, is nearly impossible in a situation full of subjective opinions, IMHO. There comes a point where one has to take the data and simply forge ahead. My guess, is that even after the data provided and after the subjective comparison (my comparison) of the '975V to the 'S97, there are many people who are still not quite sure what to decide.

In this case what's the best choice? The *best* choice is to simply go and have a look when the player shows up in the store armed with the knowledge presented.

Paul

deekz -

What is the ptl500u? It's not the AE500, which I have, is it? And what "known" shortcomings?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


both are same unit; believe one was commercial and the other consumer. Mainly vb, hotspotting, typical lcd trouble with deep blacks... (pls do a search).

It's a decent projector for the price though; been satisfied for the most part. of course, you can find a better unit for more $$. there will always be something better around the corner as well. still trying to find a decent dvi dvd player for it. thought about the d2, momitsu 880, zenith 318, sammy 841 but struggling to pull the trigger due to the problems cited by some in this forum. I currently have a 12 foot monster component cable, so maybe I will just stick to a quality component dvd player like the denon 2900 (or cheaper, if possible). Unfortunately I haven't found a dvi dvd player that merits the additional expense of a 12 ft DVI cable. Have also read that some are having problems with DVI to HDMI connections, thus an HDMI player may not be the answer at the moment either.

Originally posted by reincarnate
Perfectly Stated Gregg! While Paul Bigalow has made a tremendous effort here, the evidence indicates that everything was carefully planned and timed. Is is good to let one person dominate and saturate a major release? What were his motives? Ego?

In my opinion Paul is to close to the subject and has lost his objectivity.
After reading the new Denon player meltdown threads here previously, how could anyone in there right mind ever buy a product which incorporates the Genesis/Faroudja FLI2310LF with its MACRO BLOCKING feature?!? And yet this chip/company is worshiped here (and used to be at Secrets)...

There is no talk of the number of conversions/scalings and processing stages involved for each resolution when used with common displays. For instance with my 60" Sony GWIII the best picture quality is with 480p component, even though the Sony has a DVI input. And I'll be happy to let others explain why, as I don't want to spoil the fun.

reincarnate - well let me provide you with more fun.
"the evidence indicates that everthing was carefully planned and timed" - of course, Paul is currently receiving kickbacks from OneCall

"Is is good to let one person dominate and saturate a major release?"
You hit the nail on the head, Paul has dominated the thread because all owners of competing DVD players (esp. the new Sony) have been prevented from posting on this forum by new filters established on the release date of the S97 S

What were his motives? Ego?
Well sort of. Actually it is instanteous self-gratification.....see Paul likes to help out others.

Stupid is as Stupid does.

You can call me Forest.

Whew!

Anyway, thanks for the support folks. If my previous posting seemed mean-spirited, my apologies.

Reincarnate, contribute some accurate, meaningful data not presented in the first posting. If you note, in cases of contributed information, credit has been given and thanks added. Despite what you might think, this thread has and continues to be a team effort.

If I have missed thanking anyone: THANK YOU!

Back to business.

Paul

Oh yeah Penton, I better put the check for Paul in "the mail".... yeah..

With all the video adjustements of the S97, how does one go about using DVE or AVIA etc. to calibrate? Do you calibrate the tv first, using an uncalibrated dvd player? Then go back and try and make small adjustments with the S97 internal controls?

My previous player didn't have any video adjustements like the S97 so I just configured the tv and was done?.

Thanks.

Bojangling,

I would set the 'S97 at the "User" video settings described in the the first post (passes BTB and helps prevent crushing) and then adjust the TV for the proper brightness/contrast/color/tint.

Paul

Great, what I figured, but I enjoy the "expert" confirmation.

You mean the "Initial Settings" under "FAQ" correct?

Bojangling,

Yes, the "Initial settings".

I'm no "expert", just someone who's already been through this step with the player.

Paul

Hi Hugh:

I didn't test any of the patterns when I noticed the difference. However, one of the differences I noted right away when changing the TV as I mentioned before is the GUI changes abit.

When I switch between the standard and projection TV is a good example when everything seems to be a bit darker which AkaStp also noticed.

The reason I mentioned the unit is doing a good job is because the tests the other members are doing shows fine. I can perform a test to see if I notice any differences but hopefully my camera can actually take it properly. Not sure, it's probably because my contrast/brightness being at 50% which I always kept!

I haven't done much testing beisde the one I posted on the AVIA so if you have other tests you want me to do, please list them so I know what to do. I'll most likely have a image to image comparison using my anime collection too.

Sango

Originally posted by bojangling
With all the video adjustements of the S97, how does one go about using DVE or AVIA etc. to calibrate? Do you calibrate the tv first, using an uncalibrated dvd player? Then go back and try and make small adjustments with the S97 internal controls?

My previous player didn't have any video adjustements like the S97 so I just configured the tv and was done?.

Thanks.

I guess it depends on you and your tv.

I had my tv ISF calibrated so, I do not want to make any changes to the tv settings if necessary.

So, making the changes to the player was my approach. I am very happy with the results.

Also, I turned up MPEG DNR and 3D DNR by +1 to help with some of the graininess. I think it looks better. Turning them all the way up looks too soft.

Originally posted by bojangling
With all the video adjustements of the S97, how does one go about using DVE or AVIA etc. to calibrate? Do you calibrate the tv first, using an uncalibrated dvd player? Then go back and try and make small adjustments with the S97 internal controls?

My previous player didn't have any video adjustements like the S97 so I just configured the tv and was done?.

Thanks.

From a purist point of view if you are outputting an analogue signal to the display (component) it would be best to use the controls in the display. When the adjustment are performed in the digital domain such as in the dvd player it use up processor power possibly required for other functions.

Here's a quote from Charles Hansen (Ayre) on the subject.

[i]However if there is any video processing going on (brightness, contrast, gamma, et cetera), then additional resolution is required in the DACs to avoid a loss of resolution in the final output signal. In this case, a 14-bit DAC would be required to achieve the resolution of a 12-bit DAC in a system without video processing. That is one reason why we don't offer any such adjustments in the Ayre D-1. Higher performance can be achieved by making these adjustments in the analog domain in the monitor itself.[/B]

Hugh!!

If you know any good digital camera settings, maybe you can tell me so I can take pictures proprerly!!

Thanks

Originally posted by npc2396
1080i looks better on my display (Mitz 725) than 720p. Wierd since that's the case with my cable box as well. I would have thought differnetly considering the native resolution of 720p on the Mits. Also I didn't have the Avia menu abnormality.
Maybe not so weird since the Mits DLP sets convert all their inputs to analog from digital before processing the image. Then the signal is converted back to digital for display. Who knows what goes on in a process like that -- I don't. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Sango
Hi Hugh:

I didn't test any of the patterns when I noticed the difference. However, one of the differences I noted right away when changing the TV as I mentioned before is the GUI changes abit.

When I switch between the standard and projection TV is a good example when everything seems to be a bit darker which AkaStp also noticed.

The reason I mentioned the unit is doing a good job is because the tests the other members are doing shows fine. I can perform a test to see if I notice any differences but hopefully my camera can actually take it properly. Not sure, it's probably because my contrast/brightness being at 50% which I always kept!

I haven't done much testing beisde the one I posted on the AVIA so if you have other tests you want me to do, please list them so I know what to do. I'll most likely have a image to image comparison using my anime collection too.

Sango

Hi,

I just took a look at the GUI when performing the changes and this is what I see.

1-The blue background of the window which has the tv types listed where you do the adjustment is a slightly lighter blue than the window behind it.
2-The blue tabs to the left of this window do not change with different selections.
3-Though the selection window is lighter than the window behind, different selections do not appear to change the absolute tint, color, or brightness of either window.

Is it possible the color change you noted was due to the the two windows being slightly different colors to begin with and not an actual changed from the TV type selection?

Edit: I should also mention that when performing this test and cycling through the TV types block out the portion of the window where the yellow bar tab moves up and down. The movement of the yellow tabs can give the impression other colors are changing slightly as well.

Regarding camera settings, I think trial and error is the best method for what's best. Generally with my Canon S400 I find the auto setting offer the best PQ, while the manual settings always seem to introduce noise even though the manual settings are best when determining differences in brightness levels.

I am buying a new DVD player and it is not the new Sony nor Panasonic. And, hey, they both seem l very fine players from what I have read. But, do remember, there are many other DVD players in the marketplac and one may be right for you. Check out as many as you are able. Never let others make a buying decision for you. Having said that, it is good to read these comments and opinions on the Sony and the Panasonic. A 'thanks' to the guys who have taken the time to post these 'reviews'.

Originally posted by mangopony
A 'thanks' to the guys who have taken the time to post these 'reviews'.

Why put "reviews" in quotation marks? They are honest reviews done by satisfied owners, unless you want to become another "reincarnate" who made uncalled comments against Paul. Also, Paul and others should be thanked for the time spent on reviewing the DVD-S97.

No offense.

I have a problem

When I connect Audio (Front left, right, center, surround left, right) from the player into my receiver, then set to multichannel. When playing test and watch movie, I only got sound from front left, right, no sound from center and surroun. Yes, I did turn off the audio from hdmi. Is that connection only reserved for DVD-A? and I have to use coaxial or optical for movie?, or what did I do wrong? Thanks

Men! try to contact panasonic and I was put on hold for 45 minutes :mad:

Hugh2:

I'm not sure if your camera may have this problem to but it's a problem for me taking pictures. The problem is the camera adjusting the open/close rate thing every single time (like 5/27, 1/60, 1/6, etc...) which is messing up everything I take. I wonder is there is a way to it down to one fixed rate so I can get an accurate result which can show on the camera - more like a film camera can do!

This pretty much my frustration at the current moment when I take pictures.

Sango

Originally posted by Sango
Hugh2:

I'm not sure if your camera may have this problem to but it's a problem for me taking pictures. The problem is the camera adjusting the open/close rate thing every single time (like 5/27, 1/60, 1/6, etc...) which is messing up everything I take. I wonder is there is a way to it down to one fixed rate so I can get an accurate result which can show on the camera.

Sango

I don't know for sure, but I've been under the impression if you manually set the camera's exposure, ISO, etc. so they are fixed then no automatic adjustments are performed. This seem to be working for me when required.

Anyone have thoughts about the pixel cropping picture I posted earlier? I'm hoping I've missed some simple setting but I can't find it. Avia also shows that the picture is off center to the left, any adustment for that.

Hugh:

Yup I tried the ISO at 400, still it's adjusting. I'll have to take a look tonight since I'm going on U campus for the day.

Reguarding the Standard + Projeciton in the screen. It just looks all windows and the yellow color just went a bit dim. I've viewed the DVD test screen screen too and it's more noticable from what I saw.

Sango

AkaStp,
you can use standard rca audio cables for dvd-audio.

jeff

Originally posted by megamii
Why put "reviews" in quotation marks? They are honest reviews done by satisfied owners, unless you want to become another "reincarnate" who made uncalled comments against Paul. Also, Paul and others should be thanked for the time spent on reviewing the DVD-S97.

No offense.

Made me think of that Friends episode where Joey didn't know how to use the "quote" hand sign.

The 2 meter HDMI cable that comes with the S97 is of decent quality and I notice no artifacts that are caused by the cable since it is just sending 0s and 1s like any other digital connection. I have noticed no dropouts with it so I would say if 2 meters is enough length for you that the supplied cable is just fine.

Regarding "TV Type" with DLP displays.

I sent a three part question by email to Panansonic asking about which setting to use with a DLP Projection tv and DLP front projector and also asked for an explanation of what how these different settings theoretically affect the signal. Here's the reply:

"Thank you for your e-mail. Our technical staff has advised that as a DLP
television is a Projection TV they recommend that this is the setting one
chooses."

One out three questions answered is better than none at all I suppose.

lnguyen,

I tried that test and had the same results as you describe. My configuration is the audio is turned off over HDMI and I run the audio via coax to my receiver. I think the surround is working ok, maybe a problem with this test...

Originally posted by Hugh2
Regarding "TV Type" with DLP displays.

I sent a three part question by email to Panansonic asking about which setting to use with a DLP Projection tv and DLP front projector and also asked for an explanation of what how these different settings theoretically affect the signal. Here's the reply:

"Thank you for your e-mail. Our technical staff has advised that as a DLP
television is a Projection TV they recommend that this is the setting one
chooses."

One out three questions answered is better than none at all I suppose.

Thanks Hugh. Very helpful. I guess I can shut up now about which setting to choose for my DLP. :) You would think that would be an option given that DLPs are taking significant share of the RPTV market .

Pure curiosity, the S97 doesn't have a way of sender analog RGB does it? There is no VGA output is there?

Originally posted by EricScott
Thanks Hugh. Very helpful. I guess I can shut up now about which setting to choose for my DLP. :) You would think that would be an option given that DLPs are taking significant share of the RPTV market .

You're welcome.

hurtz777 responded:

The 2 meter HDMI cable that comes with the S97 is of decent quality and I notice no artifacts that are caused by the cable since it is just sending 0s and 1s like any other digital connection. I have noticed no dropouts with it so I would say if 2 meters is enough length for you that the supplied cable is just fine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good to know the supplied cable is sturdy enough. thx for your reply.

What's the trick to changing the picture mode (picture menu). An asterisk is displayed and when I click on it I get a message that says this function is not available.

Originally posted by Randy384
What's the trick to changing the picture mode (picture menu). An asterisk is displayed and when I click on it I get a message that says this function is not available.

This means you have the "AV ENHANCER" mode set to auto. Any of the other modes ie: OFF, USER 1, USER 2, or USER 3 will allow adjustments of the picture modes.

You can access this feature via the remote button just above the #1 button.

Thanks.

Hugh2:

I'm on campus, just took a break. Just curious, did you complain to Panasonic reguarding the macroblocking?

I sent mine yesturday, no word yet.

Sango

Got new Toshiba 52HMX84 last night, and first time using the S97 - set it up through optical and HDMI. Went through basic setup. I didn't see any place where you "choose" 720p or 1080i, etc. I also didn't see any place that mentioned 4:4:4 etc. ( I am not sure what this is, but didn't see the settings). Also, I am an audio-idiot as well, but what is the "basic" PCM setup and do I need to worry about it since I am using optical. I have it at the first setting right now 46hertz? Should I set it higher? I have a new Kenwood 8070 receiver that delivers 100w to all channels up to 7.1 Not sure what to set here.

I realized quickly that DVDs on this DLP HD2+ TV varried in quality, depending on compression and film quality. Star Wars Episode II and Gladiator looked nearly HD - some incredible, stunning, cinema. (BTW, what should I set my video mode on for DVDs, film or video??). These DVDs looked incredible with no blurs or grain. I did see horrible red-crush/macro-blocking on the very early scene in SW Episode II where they are in the Senator's room with all the red walls - they were horrible, but no other solid colors looked this way.

Some other DVDs with interior textures behind characters or medium range outside shots, you could see lots and lots of "grain" - even a DVD like the first Rounders, which looked 100% crystal clear to my eyes on my old 480i player on a 36" tube had some real graininess to it. Any ideas how to make these background areas and outside shots looks as smooth and clear as some of the other shots, or is this too a bi-product of upconversion, film quality, and compression?

Thank you all so much for helping a n00b like me.

Lodey,

Have a look at the first post in this thread. Most of your answers for picture quality/adjustment are there. I haven't really begun to explore the audio yet.

To change resolution follow this sequence in the menus:

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode: 1080i

As far as background grain, have a look at the "Macroblock Survival Kit" section in the first post.

Also a bit of MPEG NR (try +1 or +2) might help:

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: MPEG DNR

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
Hugh2:

I'm on campus, just took a break. Just curious, did you complain to Panasonic reguarding the macroblocking?

I sent mine yesturday, no word yet.

Sango

No I didn't, I purchased this player primarily for the 480i output. Strangely enough for the first time last night I did witness severe macroblocking on a Dave Mathews concert DVD using 480i output. Somehow I inadvertantly significantly raised the contrast setting on the Iscan HD and that was the cause.

The Iscan is new as well and previous to this I've never witnessed macroblocking.

Even if I wanted to complain I wouldn't bother anyway, I was fully aware of the potential problem when I purchased the player therefore if I lost the gamble any notes of wisdom would be directed to self.

For MB, I haven't notice any so far watching my material.

However, I did notice a good example of macroblocking on one of my anime discs because when it brings up the Geneon logo (the company) since there are clouds which come in before the logo appears.

Thanks Paul - will do! Much appreciated... trying to calibrate a TV and a DVD player and being a n00b is tough. Like I said, overall, for some newer DVDs and digital filmed ones, like Star Wars II Attack of the Clones, and Gladiator - looks amazing... but for example, in Fellowship of the Ring, in the beginning, they show a 15 second shot of the "Misty Mountains" when they are discussing the history of the Ring, and there is a lot of flickering grain to the mountains, sky, etc. More fine tuning tonight... maybe I don't even have it on 1080i yet even though I am using HDMI cable?

Lodey:

You have to enable to 1080i. You notice on the player, there is a light indicator to indicate if it's on or not. Also if you go through the picture menu you'll also see what the player is running at.

Sango

So you are saying I may be playing my DVDs at 480p... hmmm, they might look even better? Can't wait to check it out.

hi everyone

i have just ordered the panny 700 and the panny s97:p i am not going to buy an expensive hdmi cabel so i hope the supplied cable is good enough. BTW how big of a diffrance does a expensive hdmi cabel do, is it really that noticable that you need to buy a new cabel. has anyone tested a cheeper cabel against an expensive one and how big of a diffrance was it.

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

I use the 6ft. cable that came with the player. I have not attempted to use another cable.

I think the supplied cable works just fine. No problems. I believe one user reported that his supplied cable was defective.

Paul

Quick question...if my Toshiba's native resolution is 720p, is that what I should output directly from the S97?

Originally posted by Lodey
Quick question...if my Toshiba's native resolution is 720p, is that what I should output directly from the S97?

Yes.

I havent seen this talked about, but does anyone use or know what 'depth enhancement" does?

I have changed it, but did not notice a difference so I left it at 0.

Anyone have any other experience with this?

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I use the 6ft. cable that came with the player. I have not attempted to use another cable.

I think the supplied cable works just fine. No problems. I believe one user reported that his supplied cable was defective.

Paul

i have read about these expensive cables (monster etc) that have gold plated connections etc. and they are really expensive for a cable. and i have wondered if it really does make such a noticeable difference with an expensive cable isn't better to put that money to buy a more expensive product.

THANKS AGAIN PAUL FOR THE QUICK REPLY:D

Originally posted by Lodey
So you are saying I may be playing my DVDs at 480p... hmmm, they might look even better? Can't wait to check it out.

When I first hooked the player up to my Samsung DLP, the output format was 480p. Had to go in and change it to 720p (see Paul's directions above for how to do this). So you are probably looking at 480p.

ROTK on my Sammy looks pretty sick.

Rock,

This was reported on the 3D-NR (I haven't tried it yet):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4632186#post4632186

I have not seen a difference with "depth enhancement".

Paul

Originally posted by ZoomAir
i have read about these expensive cables (monster etc) that have gold plated connections etc. and they are really expensive for a cable. and i have wondered if it really does make such a noticeable difference with an expensive cable isn't better to put that money to buy a more expensive product.

THANKS AGAIN PAUL FOR THE QUICK REPLY:D

There have been 1000's of threads, discussions, debates, flames, total war, concerning the merits/ridiculousness of premium cables. I'll leave it to the user.

I look for good construction, proper length, and snug (but not too tight) fit of the connector.

Depending upon the application, the cable diameter, overall flexibility, and shielding might play a part in the decision.

Paul

Does anyone have any comments on using the S97 with an HLN (not HLP!) series Sammy DLP (which has DVI input, but not HDMI)? I bought a Sammy HD931 DVD player a year ago take advantage of the DVI on my HLN437W, but it's been no fun at all. You probably all know the drill: lousy remote, unintuitive menus, black crush, no pillarboxing of 4x3 material, etc.

I'm ready to banish the 931 to a little-used TV and get a better player (but NOT spring for the higher-end Denon's) for the DLP. What do we think -- is this the player of choice? (I'd like to stay away from the Sony and its CUE).

Any negatives using the S97 w/ a Sammy HLN?

Thanks!

Paul, I like the joke about using hanger wire for cables lol!!!!

Originally posted by deekz
deekz -

What is the ptl500u? It's not the AE500, which I have, is it? And what "known" shortcomings?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


both are same unit; believe one was commercial and the other consumer. Mainly vb, hotspotting, typical lcd trouble with deep blacks... (pls do a search).

It's a decent projector for the price though; been satisfied for the most part. of course, you can find a better unit for more $$. there will always be something better around the corner as well. still trying to find a decent dvi dvd player for it. thought about the d2, momitsu 880, zenith 318, sammy 841 but struggling to pull the trigger due to the problems cited by some in this forum. I currently have a 12 foot monster component cable, so maybe I will just stick to a quality component dvd player like the denon 2900 (or cheaper, if possible). Unfortunately I haven't found a dvi dvd player that merits the additional expense of a 12 ft DVI cable. Have also read that some are having problems with DVI to HDMI connections, thus an HDMI player may not be the answer at the moment either.

deekz -

You say you haven't found a decent DvD player for it (the panny PJ). What's wrong with the S97? Incidentally, this is the setup I have.

Y

Originally posted by npc2396
Anyone have thoughts about the pixel cropping picture I posted earlier? I'm hoping I've missed some simple setting but I can't find it. Avia also shows that the picture is off center to the left, any adustment for that.

I'd like to know people's thought on this as well. It doesn't seem to have been addressed.

Hello,

The picture shown was non-pillarboxed (the pattern on Avia is 4:3) can't say if the the TV has significant overscan or not.

I'll take a look at my display with the stretched Avia and report back (I think my TV has some overscan as well).

Paul

On my NEC HT1000 projector, I only see 2-3 pixels cropped on the left and right, zero on the top or bottom. With the Bravo D1 A1024x768, I got 0 cropped on any side.

My HDTV, which has an overscan I cannot reduce, cuts more pixels on every side.

This is a display setup problem. However, on many displays/HDTVs, you may not be able to reduce the pixel cropping to zero. Centering the picture is also a display adjustment (usually in the service mode).

Just to the Candians folks know. The Panasonic DVD-S97 is now officially listed on Panasonic Canada's (http://www.panasonic.ca/English/audiovideo/dvd/dvds97.asp) website.

ahro,

Good to hear. How is the picture? What are you comparing it to (what was your previous dvd unit)?

How are you connecting it? Is it via DVI to HDMI or using an adaptor? Which cable or adaptor?

Thanks

Sango, any luck with the key sequences? ;)

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Yeah, this is just one “huge” thread !

Sort of like the New York Times is one “huge” newspaper.

I find your conclusions of Paul’s work to be analogous to reading the first paragraph of the front page of said newspaper. (i.e. - While reading Paul's comparison of the S97 vs. the Sony 975 in Post #1).

If you had read the ENTIRE thread and followed the day to day issues – rather than making such a critique on Paul’s work…… I believe that you would have noticed that Paul has bent over backwards to be diplomatic on his evaluation of the Sony and has stated that it is a “fine player”, that in his opinion one could not go wrong with the purchase of either player and in many ways it comes down to a matter of personal preference concerning the attributes of each.

Your comments about Paul’s work remind me of people in high school and college that never read the book – but wrote their papers based upon the Cliff Notes.

Yo, Penton-Man:

Post #1 IS the "cliff-notes" of this thread. It's obviously the first place to go and read Paul's conclusions. I think Paul's evaluation and even the format represent a well-organized approach. And, in that I don't want to read every post on all 60 pages (at least until I find a reason to), I would hope the summary in post#1 would include the major details. And, if the New York Times buried major headlines -- without references to page numbers, they wouldn't be the biggest paper in circulation, would they?

I simply suggest that a few words could be added to say what aspects of the 975 may be superior to the S97 (because the reverse can easily be found). Though the conclusion SOUNDS objective and non-preferential, the major points of contention don't seem to be present.

To be clear, I couldn't give a darn which unit is better -- but if they are going to be compared -- especially within the format of a post #1 summary, I'm simply offering what I -- as a prospective buyer of either unit -- would like to know (and what seems to be missing -- after posting a comparison).

Paul:
You suggest that I should read the 975 Brain-dump thread to find what the 975 does well or better than the S97. If that thread included a comparison of the same units -- with more emphasis on highlighting the 975's strength's and weaknesses in that thread, I'd understand your reply. If that thread even included some talking points about what you like, I'd understand. But, the fact is you don't really say if/what you REALLY like about the 975! More precisely, I can not determine if there's something about the 975 that you do like better! (This statement excludes the major contention of CUE vs. macroblocking).

If the answer is there's nothing you like more on the 975, that's fine. I'd just like to know that. (And, if that's the answer, it makes a hellofalot stronger case for getting my hands on the S97 before my 30-day return period is up). BTW: I already went to Ultimate, BB, and CC. No one in K.C. has the S97 in stock yet -- though I can order it. So, the question becomes, is there enough evidence to order it? So far, CUE and macroblocking aren't an issue for me. Additionally, the green depression you speak of is also not an issue on my display. That means I'd like to know how you compare the units BEYOND those aspects.

From your comparison in post#1 of this thread, I get a clear idea why you like the S97. PERFECT. I LOVE THAT! Yet, I haven't a clue what you really like about the 975. (Re-read your comparison and see what I mean). If the answer is not much, why conclude that the contest is close?

Listen, I don't think you're doing a "bad job". In fact, I love your approach. To be honest, I'm kind of waiting to see if I need to go out of my way to see if the S97 is better than the Sony. And, I do think additional detail could be provided for those looking to choose between the units -- especially in your "cliff notes" post #1. Since you're not a professional reviewer, lets really hear if you like the S97 better!

Am I making sense?

gp

Sango, any luck with the key sequences? ;)

posted by GreggPenn as above
"Post #1 IS the "cliff-notes" of this thread. It's obviously the first place to go and read Paul's conclusions. I think Paul's evaluation and even the format represent a well-organized approach. And, in that I don't want to read every post on all 60 pages (at least until I find a reason to), I would hope the summary in post#1 would include the major details.

Greg - The point is that Post #1 is simply a COURTESY, I repeat COURTESY provided by Paul to anyone interested in this subject matter. It was not meant to be a definitive listing of every nuance that Paul has found with this and other DVD players on this thread.

If you don't want to read every post on all 60 pages - then please REFRAIN from critiquing his work.

As they say ......don't comment unless you've read the BOOK !

Now Paul in view of Greg's profound insights, could you please do the following for us.......

Please list every single positive and negative statement that you have made over the past 60 pages concerning this player, the Sony, the Zenith, and others on page 1 so we don't have to do our homework.

Please also buy and evaluate all future upconverting players and add to Page 1 in a logical, unbiased fashion ...... as rapidly as you can.

And when all of the above becomes moot .... Please go out and buy all the $2,000 plus Blu-Ray players when they become available and do a fair shootout with all of the significant findings itemized in alpabetical order.

In one word: "Thanks" to Paul for all the hard work. I truly enjoy my S97, and I would not have gotten it without this thread. I read it cover to cover.

Now, back to... Sango, any luck? ;)

Hi Rich:

No luck on the SVC Disc #2 trick =( ! The whole programming has changed!! I also notice some of the diagnostic functions display different which I have find out how it works until I obtain the resource from Panasonic about it.

Sango

Sango, thanks for the update. The good news is that it plays PAL progressive for those who have compatible, 50Hz displays or projectors (and region-free DVDs).

Originally posted by Penton-Man
posted by GreggPenn as above
"Post #1 IS the "cliff-notes" of this thread. It's obviously the first place to go and read Paul's conclusions. I think Paul's evaluation and even the format represent a well-organized approach. And, in that I don't want to read every post on all 60 pages (at least until I find a reason to), I would hope the summary in post#1 would include the major details.

Greg - The point is that Post #1 is simply a COURTESY, I repeat COURTESY provided by Paul to anyone interested in this subject matter. It was not meant to be a definitive listing of every nuance that Paul has found with this and other DVD players on this thread.

If you don't want to read every post on all 60 pages - then please REFRAIN from critiquing his work.

As they say ......don't comment unless you've read the BOOK !

Now Paul in view of Greg's profound insights, could you please do the following for us.......

Please list every single positive and negative statement that you have made over the past 60 pages concerning this player, the Sony, the Zenith, and others on page 1 so we don't have to do our homework.

Please also buy and evaluate all future upconverting players and add to Page 1 in a logical, unbiased fashion ...... as rapidly as you can.

And when all of the above becomes moot .... Please go out and buy all the $2,000 plus Blu-Ray players when they become available and do a fair shootout with all of the significant findings itemized in alpabetical order.

Evidently, you've excused yourself from constructive replies. To me, your sarcasm is combative, immature, and unproductive. Your extreme reply suggests there is no room for suggestions in here. Since forums like this are for the explicit purpose of sharing ideas, your reply is obnoxious -- while easily exposing yourself as someone who is angry by nature -- without an open mind.

Fortunately, through your glib nature, I still get your meaning. I see post #1 one way, you see it another. Furthermore, I did not make excessive demands of Paul. I only asked for clarification. And, despite my thorough effort to provide impartial thoughts, you responded less than kind. Since my comments are directed to Paul, I'll wait for his response. Conversing with you seems pointless.

Rich, maybe you can help *us*. Since I've already sent email to Panasonic, maybe you can assist by writing to them too reguarding macroblocking so they can go fix it up ASAP!

Sango

Gregg,

I've actually been somewhat resistant to indicating "x vs. y" , "z is better than w" because the permutations are endless. I am a finite resource. I would rather present the data and let the prospective purchasers make the comparisons that are important to them. I've *encouraged* the interested to take the data and compare it. The "shootouts" were done after numerous requests. First line after the "shootout" notation:

My opinions. Not always scientific. They are what they are

That's it. Maybe I'll add to them, maybe not.

If there's something wrong in the FAQ data or if something needs to be added or clarified, let me know.

The FAQ for 'NS975 is full of strengths:

Via HDMI:
It doesn't have macroblocking
It passes blacker than black
It doesn't crush white
It does pass 480i
It does pillarbox
Y/C at 1080i looked perfect
It has a motion-adaptive deinterlacer
It does have good subtitle synchronization

Via 480i/p component:
It does have good color at 480p
It does pillarbox via 480p component

and on an on. No doubt more positive performance characteristics can be added. Aren't these all great qualites? As a video enthusiast, I'm thrilled that the Sony does so well. Not all players can pass all of these items, in my view.

The Sony and Panasonic threads are still "works in progress" and the Sony thread needs a lot of work.

I'll see what I can do.

Paul

“Evidently, you've excused yourself from constructive replies. To me, your sarcasm is combative, immature, and unproductive. Your extreme reply suggests there is no room for suggestions in here. Since forums like this are for the explicit purpose of sharing ideas, your reply is obnoxious -- while easily exposing yourself as someone who is angry by nature -- without an open mind………”

Greg, if you had read the ENTIRE thread before critiquing Paul’s work then you would have seen that there have been MANY suggestions, probing questions, uncorroborated findings that resulted in confirmation, and favors asked of Paul and other users with this unit. There also have been some that have disagreed with the merits of the S97 (according to Paul’s findings) and have happily decided to keep their current DVD players.

But nobody, I repeat NOBODY (except you) has had the audacity to critique Paul’s methodology in the presentation of these findings on this thread and insinuate that he has been biased in some fashion by neglect or omission.

You my dear fellow have been the first. And to do it without having read the entire thread is just comical.

Also I find your personal comment of me “while easily exposing yourself as someone who is angry by nature -- without an open mind…” to represent the same reckless evaluation of my character as you displayed with your sophomoric critique of Paul’s work. Perhaps, just perhaps if you had a Ph.D in Psychology or an M.D. in Psychiatry – I would give your statement a little thought….. a LITTLE .

I am truly amazed at Paul’s hard work and CEASELESS patience in answering some questions that could be solved by reading page 1 or just the manual thoroughly.

But for Paul to have to do all that and tolerate a critique like yours of his work is duty above and beyond especially since he isn’t been paid to do this.

You can say what you want to about me but I will not allow you to jeopardize Paul's constant presence on this thread because HE is too much of a valuable asset to alot of us.

Thank you Penton for the kind words.

Let's get this thread back on track and see what we can do.

It would be appreciated if this discussion is now taken off line so we can help those who need help without having to read through the "dirty laundry". Gregg's points have been noted.

Paul

Paul:
To be clear, here is my issue...

In your comparison of the Panasonic and Sony, you like the picture of the Panasonic better (though you comment that the Sony handles questionable patches of material -- susceptible to macroblocking -- better).

Color accuracy seems to go to the Panasonic (due to green depression issues). However, you say it "depends". If the Sony can be equal or greater, you do not make this conclusion in order to qualify your "depends".

Object motion is better handled by the Panasonic. (This would seem to trump the "questionable patches of material won by the Sony). Furthermore, operation, features, remote, and construction are all rated better (by you) for the Panasonic.

Yet in the midst of all this praise for the Panasonic, you say:
I haven't fully decided but, in my case, I'm leaning towards the Panasonic. In my situation the macroblocking is easier to ignore than the jaundice. However, if one's display allows for HD/SD matrix selection at 1080i/720p the Sony might get the nod for overall "average viewing" PQ.

After reading ALL of your positives for the Panasonic with very little (if anything) to praise about the Sony, you conclude that the Sony "might get the nod for overall average viewing PQ.

This seems impossible considering the degree of overall desire for the qualities of the Panasonic! I would go so far as to say your "talking points" don't seem to support your conclusion.

When I first asked you provide support for your conclusion that the Sony "might" prove better, you referred me to the 975 Brain dump thread. In that thread, the green depression issue is re-iterated in Post #1. In addition, picture cropping, mild etching, CUE, and ICP are negatives. Again, I'm challenged to find your positives.

Considering the format of your posts -- where you're posting the main talking points regarding these units in post #1, it would seem reasonable to see the major conclusions identified.

From what I read, there is no contest. Yet your conclusion states the Panasonic is your favorite despite only "leaning toward it".

With this in mind, isn't it obvious why I'd ask if I'm missing something good about your perception of the Sony while wondering why you don't view the S97 as the hands down winner?

I'm not asking for tons of extra detail. I'd just like to see the dots connect.

gp

Paul:
I just posted a reply at the same time you were replying to me. I apologize if this causes additional confusion, but I will leave my post to provide additional explanation of my questions for all.

Now I'll check and see what you said.....

gp

Edit:
After reading your reply, you do acknowledge some of the abilities of the 975. I hope you realize there is a difference between acknowledgement and praise -- especially in your direct comparison of the units. To me, this direct comparison is where your observations really matter. It is also where I'm having trouble seeing the points leading toward any favoring of the Sony.

I understand it may be hard to stand back and objectively see what I'm talking about. Hopefully, my post immediately above will help provide further explanation. If this is something you do not have time to address online, I understand. And, I hope you will not fault me for asking.

Paul,

I couldn't agree more. Consider the "conflict" ended. I just can't wait until you do a Pany vs. Sony Blu-Ray thing.

And I'll tell you right now, I'm leaning toward the Sony !

Paul:
Please note the edit added two posts back.

Penton-man:
You speak of reviewing the entire thread. If you review the first page of this thread, you will see my great praise for what Paul is addressing through his reviews. Anyone who read my first post in this thread should realize I was not being critical. Moreover, anyone who really thought about what I was asking most recently should conclude the same.

-- and --

Most importantly, it was a complete misunderstanding if it sounded like I was accusing Paul of bias. I was only trying to connect the dots and complete my understanding of his Sony vs Pany comparison.

There WAS another poster a few pages back who did accuse Paul of timing issues, and bias. I chose to ignore him -- because he obviously didn't take time to read what I had to say. I thought about addressing the lack of sense in his remarks -- but his post was not addressed to me. I felt the same invasion at your response to my post TO PAUL.

It is ironic that THINKING (or not thinking) about what a person is really trying to say/ask is the reason for these conflicts! And, I also agree to an end to this conflict.

gp

Sango:

What was the e-mail address you sent this letter to Panasonic? I'd like to do the same aswell...

I've sent Panasonic a message using this (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/wwwconsumer/customersupport/CustomerFeedback.jsp?modelNo=&storeId=11251) site from Panasonic.

EDIT: I've also sent a similar message to Panasonic Canada using this (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/customercare/feedback.asp) link.

Sango

My order from J&R got shipped this morning, over a week before I expected. Looking to setting it up with my Sony XBR. has there been any consensus on settings for RPTVs? Should I calibrate this Player or the TV?

Originally posted by Sango
Rich, maybe you can help *us*. Since I've already sent email to Panasonic, maybe you can assist by writing to them too reguarding macroblocking so they can go fix it up ASAP!


Sango, I sent the email to Panasonic as you requested.

However, I do not see MB at all. I do not know if it's my setup (HDMI-> DVI) or my projector (NEC HT1000 with older Faroudja chip) but I have not seen it. I even have gamma to the max on my projector, and have pushed the S97 gamma to +5 without artifacts....

I may try very hard NOT to see it ;)

Rich:

Hmm it may depend on your viewing material.

I found a good example by watching Last Exile (http://www.lastexiledvd.com/) DVD. It wasn't the the episodes that had them, it was when Geneon company logo animation appared is when the macroblocking appeared. Maybe you can purchase the series too since it's great! =)

Sango

Originally posted by Sango
Rich:

Hmm it may depend on your viewing material.

I found a good example by watching Last Exile (http://www.lastexiledvd.com/) DVD. It wasn't the the episodes that had them, it was when Geneon company logo animation appared is when the macroblocking appeared. Maybe you can purchase the series too since it's great! =)

Sango

Sango, I think I know what you're talking about. It's the Geneon logo right after the FBI warnings, right? With the smoke and the light? It looked really bad on the Zenith DVB-318. I was so shocked. I'd never seen macro blocking that bad on TV before, I had no idea what the problem was. Then I tried the same disc on my XP-50 and it played smoothly, no MB.

I've noticed lots of macro blocking watching anime on the 318. But the 318 has much sharper picture quality than the XP-50 on my HLP. So I now I watch anime on my XP50 and non-anime on the 318.

I'm hoping that the S97 is better then the 318, at least. I should be getting mine early next week. The first thing I'm going to try is a Geneon disc.

Also, does anyone know if the S97 can be made region-free? (am I allowed to ask this?)

Yeah, it's the smoke and light from Geneon - hmm, they should rename themselves back to Pionner and to put their Pioneer logo back in lol!!!. It was like, whooh first the first time because I never seen the macroblocking in person.

Just using the 4 animes as I mentioned earlier such as Gundam Seed, Last Exile, Sugar and Inu Yasha, I have not seen the presence of macroblocking so far.

S97 made region free is unknown at this point in time.

Hi Hugh,

I manged to get my camera to get to take the picture at the fixed shutter rate to eliminate the issue of inconsistancy.

I have the pics here (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/Compare.zip). I have test pattern differences and one IY comparison indicated by the CRT, PROJ naming conventions.

I have other Inu Yasha pictures there to make sure the shutter speed is shutting at the same speed - the picture taking has improved than the ones intially I've done.

My camera still has has some issue dealing with the bright light from my TV so you'll see some strange band of discoloration in the pic. The band is there when the light is too bright for the camera to handle, but don't worry about it since everywhere else in the picture is fine.

Sango

Just a thought, since so much people is asking what Macroblocking is and it's really hard to show it via just a pic. Is it possible that was can get someone to take a video clip of a scene with and without MB so people can see for themselves??

Originally posted by EricScott
reincarnate

This is really a pretty obnoxious and uncalled for statement. While I agree that Paul may be too knee deep in this now to form completely objective opinions, I think he has gone way above and beyond the call to provide accurate and detailed information and more importantly to answer 54 pages!!! of our questions (plus I don't know how many in the Sony thread). I for one applaud him for it and don't think you really are in any position to criticize his efforts.

If you have a different opinion then state it, but don't waste your time or ours picking apart his methods or motives. That's just stupid.
Its all about achieving a balanced point of view. I would far prefer hearing from the many other intelligent users (who used to post their findings). And especially from those in the industry. This reminds me of DenonJeff literally being run off the AVS forum. So now look what we are left with...

As for Mr. Bigelow, he is even going so far as to give FUTURE Secrets ratings. Why? To steal their limelight?

Besides being force feed, I DO resent the greedy $383 price charged at my local UE store for this MACRO BLOCKING unit. This marketing hysteria raised here is totally uncalled for, considering the fatal technical flaw of the unit. In the long term too, this situation can only serve to damage the reputations of everyone involved.
Lastly I agree with "wasting" to much time here. That IS just stupid. I think the trend is to "raise the bar" and re-subscribe to professional written reviews. It certainly is the more efficient method.

Originally posted by npc2396
I ordered my S97s from onecall on Saturday and recieved it yesterday. Very happy thus far although I did miss the free shipping promotion. I'm having one problem. Avia is showing nearly 20 pixels cropped. Here's a pic. It looks like a zoom problem. I've tried all the zooms on the panasonic and my Mits 61725. Any ideas what I can do to change it. Very happy with the pic though. 1080i looks better on my display then 720p. Wierd since that's the case with my cable box as well. I would have thought differnetly considering the native resolution of 720p on the Mits. Also I didn't have the Avia menu abnormality.

npc2396,

I think this issue is, in part, the display. My results with the "stretched" Avia pixel crop pattern via 1080i HDMI:

Missing pixels: Top: 5 Bottom: 6 Left: 10 Right: 9

And my display does have some overscan.

Paul

Originally posted by reincarnate
As for Mr. Bigelow, he is even going so far as to give FUTURE Secrets ratings. Why? To steal their limelight?

He was just making a prediction. :rolleyes:


Lastly I agree with "wasting" to much time here. That IS just stupid. I think the trend is to "raise the bar" and re-subscribe to professional written reviews. It certainly is the more efficient method.

Why do you even post in this thread? If you are not satisfied with this review and/or topic then please refrain from reading/posting.

As for the majority of people posting here, Paul's review has helped and opened up discussion.

Again, I have tried numerous upscaling players and after reading his review, I purchased the panny and love it.

Face it, you are in the minority (or you are the minority).

Lodey, "Got new Toshiba 52HMX84 last night.."

I have the same TV as you and I am a newbie here too.

After your set up, can you post you settings ??

I didn't noticed any difference between 720p and 1080i on the TV.

Yes I think I am seeing the MB stuff....but the rainbows for me are killers....my wife doesn't see so I need to live with that !

Anyway, I'll try Paul's suggestions and I'll post my settings too !!

Have a good one everybody !!

Mario

Has anyone confirmed they can get blacker than black to pass with the S97 to a DVI-based display???

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-dvi-hdmi-hdcp-connections-11-2004.html

"If you have a digital display that is HDCP compliant, use HDMI or DVI (with a converter cable if necessary). There are a few DVI players out there, such as the Pioneer DV59-AVi, Samsung DVD-HD931, and Bravo D1/D2. I highly suggest that if you are getting ready to buy, make sure the product you are purchasing has DVI connections that are HDCP compliant (all HDMI connections are HDCP compliant). Keep in mind that, although DVI and HDMI are compatible, there is some loss in going from an HDMI source to a DVI display (see below). So, if you are starting from scratch, get all HDMI devices.

From JJ's article on HDTV Repeaters:

DVI is an 8 bit RGB signal, while HDMI can be 8 bit RGB, or 8 bit, 10 bit, or 12 bit YCbCr. If you have a DVI source and DVI display, there will be no problem. If you have a DVI source and an HDMI display, again, no problem. If however, you have an HDMI source and a DVI display, the below-black video information may be lost in the translation. There is a bug in the Silicon Image HDMI transmitter that pops up when converting YCbCr to RGB. The HD TiVo and Pioneer 59AVi do not have this problem.

Even though source information (DVDs, HD) is all 8 bit color, if DSP is applied in 8 bit, such as in a video processor, rounding errors will toss out some of the data. On the other hand, if the data are 10 bit, such as with YCbCr, then the rounding errors don't occur. In fact, 14 - 16 bit is optimum for processing. Also, DVD data are YCbCr, and are converted to RGB in the player for the DVI output. RGB cannot represent all the data in YCbCr, and this is why the below-black information gets truncated."

This is a pretty important test, especially since this player only upconverts via the HDMI output.

Originally posted by npc2396
Anyone have thoughts about the pixel cropping picture I posted earlier? I'm hoping I've missed some simple setting but I can't find it. Avia also shows that the picture is off center to the left, any adustment for that.

This isn't difinitive by any means but I spent the last half hour attempting to reproduce cropping similar to that shown in your photo. I tried different combos of the 4:3 stretch,shrink, zoom modes, aspect ratios and the different zoom modes.

The only way I could mimic the cropping you presented was by using the zoom modes cinemascope1, cinemascope 2, or by manually increasing the zoom feature. I can deduce from this that if you zoom mode is set appropriately on the DVD player the problem probably lies in the display.

One more note, I'm running my player throughan Iscan HD which allows for phase adjustments of the H and V sync portion of the RGB signal. I experiemented with this as well and found that using the H+V- setting cropped and shifted the image. Though the cropping was not as severe as what you posted, if your are outputting an HDMI signal into your display possibly there is a sync phase issue occuring between source and display.

Check your clock settings and horizontal postion setting as well if your display has them

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
npc2396,

I think this issue is, in part, the display. My results with the "stretched" Avia pixel crop pattern via 1080i HDMI:

Missing pixels: Top: 5 Bottom: 6 Left: 10 Right: 9

And my display does have some overscan.

Paul

Does the display have any kind of "horizontal clock" adjustment?

I ask because, the Denon 2910 DVI 1080i seemed to crop one side edge of the image by extra number of pixels and in a way other resolutions did not. But I went into my HT1000 menu and simply altered the horizontal clock, centerend the image, and all was well with the universe.

I haven't commented on your posting so far. Thanks for your efforts.

RJ
...

Has anyone noticed any macroblocking ion 720p mode? I heard a rumor that macroblocking does not occur in 720p. Important to me (and many others) since I have a Sanyo PLV-Z2 LCD projector (1280x720 native).

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Has anyone confirmed they can get blacker than black to pass with the S97 to a DVI-based display???

This is an interesting follow up and I was also wondering, if I recall correctly, something about increasing an adjustment on the S97 to (+1) to pass blacker than black. I was thinking, the unit was really "passing blacker than black", rather the (+1) S97 adjustment was raising the BTB video level so that it could be seen. Somweone could confirm what was going on by checking the S97 video output on a waveform. Is it really passing BTB in an analog signal as a sub 7.5IRE voltage, or is the (+1) S97 adjustment raising the entire black level of the signal floor so that BTB can be seen?

I realize we are talking about a digital signal on the DVI/HDMI output and an analog signal on a composite/component output. However, what you see going on on the analog signal via the S97 (+1) adjustment, is probably was is also going on with the digital DVI/HDMI output.

Just wondering as well.

In the very first scene of Monster's Inc, in the simulation room, I see small blocks of around 40x40 pixels or so in the background, blanket, etc. The blocks are slightly lighter and turn on and off. Is that the macroblocking or is that some other defect? I also see this effect in Chap 11.

I have a Toshiba 52HM84 w/ the S97.

Originally posted by gcmail
S97 REPORT

Panasonic S97 HDMI-HDMI
Panasonix 53x54 Widesceen RPTV
Coax connection to Yamaha HTR 5150
PSB Speaker System
Discs used: DVE, Star Wars Trilogy, Lord of the Rings Trilogy, Monsters Inc., Matrix Reloaded, Day After Tomorrow.

I will say that this player outperforms the Denon 1910 in both video and audio performance by a wide margin. The MB is frustrating, but I was able to reduce it to "acceptable" levels after half a day of fine tuning and testing. While I found it unacceptable on the Denon, the added picture and sound quality on the S97 made the MB negotiable for me.

These were my final settings:

1080i (480p shows no MB but obviously has a softer, less detailed picture, I have no 720 on my RPTV).

HDMI Colorspace -- RGB (Switching from 4:4:4: Colorspace to RGB made the biggest difference in reducing MB).

DNR off (DNR softened the picture and didn't improve MB at all on my set).

User setting 1 AV Enhancer User 1
Black Level - lighter (switching between this and darker, didn't do much)
HDMI RGB Range -- enhanced (really helped MB)

Hope this helps some of you RPTV people.

Gcmail:

You have PM. I would really appreciate it if you could answer some questions for me as I have the same TV you have (I love the TV by the way).

John

ajshih:

Most likely it can be a macroblock. If you switch to interlerlaced on the same scene and don't see it, that futher confirms it.

If you also have a digital camera to take a picture of it that'll be great for us to see.
=====================================

I have images (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/Macroblock.zip) to confirm macroblocking on my S97 which I can see. I took them in both progressive which shows MB and on interlaced mode of the similar scene, it's gone.

By looking at the picture, you notice on the MB pic, some things some areas are exaggerated when you compare to the NMB.

As I said, I've only notice this on the Geneon company animation logo but nothing else.

Sango

Sango, I recently looked at the images to see macroblocking, but where in the Geneon logo can it be found? Is the macroblocking found in the purple or blue areas of the logo?

Originally posted by AkaStp
If you read my post from a week ago you'll see that I identified that UE's pricing for the S97 is incorrect. It should be $299 with a $20 discount. It was a mistake in UE's system, not greed. Go complain to the manager of the store you purchased from. I did and got it for $279.

Imho, your comments are rather extreme and the accusations are inappropriate. If you don't like what Paul has to say, you are free to look elsewhere. You'll probably have to wait a while for industry reviews though.

I don't think Paul is trying to steal anyone's limelight. He is not giving Secrets ratings, he is speculating on what he thinks they might be. You are not being force fed. You have the option to wait a while to see how this player shakes out. You did not have to purchase it right away. Neither did I and many others here. I'm sure there are many people that are pondering the information before making a decision on this player.

One way to reduce this thread would be for everyone to stop asking questions about the player. That isn't going to happen. We should all be smart enough to take Paul's comments for what they are - his opinions - try it for ourselves and make our own informed, intelligent decisions.

You have apparently tried out this player and can't accept the MB. So, if you are that unhappy with it, take it back, get your $383 back and try something else.
My comments speak the truth. No doubt the Panasonic went into limited distribution and the price was jacked up way over list price because of the marketing efforts made right here.

I was at Ultimate just a couple of days ago (11-9-2004) and $383 dollars was the "sale" posted price. Are Ultimate managers stupid? No!

No we have a formerly best value and technology mass producer of audio and video products, releasing defective (MACRO BLOCKING) products at prices way over list, and into limited distribution channels.

Witness the transformation of a new Bose or Monster based type of company. Rather an extreme change, don't you agree?

The fact is there are many Dvd players available which have comparable performance for considerably less money. At least the general consumer population realizes this!

As for you assuming that I bought a Denon or Panasonic 97 that is just plain wrong. I did buy a Samsung 931 player and a Samsung DLP projector when they first came out years ago and noticed noisy performance, especially in dark scenes. In fact VHS tapes have a better S/N ratio than this common combination. Many here to will learn this lesson too after paying out $$$. So much for the benifets of digital transmission.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Does the display have any kind of "horizontal clock" adjustment?


Bytehoven,

No my Panasonic does not have that adjustment or any of the other "computer display type" adjustments. Would be nice, but nope.

Paul

Any tips on Settings for this player with RPTVs? I have a Sony XBR LCD RPTV.

megamii:

It's ins't on the logo, it's everything else around it. Look at the light/clouds. See those strange cloud like edges and that werid red!! Different form of macroblcoking but that's it right there. You'll notice them on the MB picture. On the NBM(non-macro) you don't see that don't you. Also you can see some exaggeration too in certain areas of the picture which isn't there on the NMB.

Sango
---------

Paul,

I began my attack on Panasonic because they said S97 has no Faroudja!! I I said to them, ok look at this picture(the one Jason took), and told them about the part number. Then I said, that's the same part number listed on the Panasonic parts site which the S97 references too!!

Sango

Originally posted by reincarnate

Lastly I agree with "wasting" to much time here. That IS just stupid. I think the trend is to "raise the bar" and re-subscribe to professional written reviews. It certainly is the more efficient method. [/B]

Well, if you agree then Why in the heck do you continue to waste your time here when it evidently would be much better spent in that remedial writing class !!!!

“I hope you realize there is a difference between acknowledgement and praise “-----Ugggggh !

LiteUp! Bytehoven,

When I have the player's "User" brightness setting to "0" I can't see the BTB stripe no matter what I do with the display's brightness. Setting the "User" brightness to +1 reveals the BTB stripe. I then reduce the display's brightness so that the BTB stripe fades into the overall background.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
LiteUp! Bytehoven,

When I have the player's "User" brightness setting to "0" I can't see the BTB stripe no matter what I do with the display's brightness. Setting the "User" brightness to +1 reveals the BTB stripe. I then reduce the display's brightness so that the BTB stripe fades into the overall background.

Paul

Thanks for confirming this Paul. You are providing a great service to us all. Do you have a display you can use to check if macroblocking exists (at all) with 720p?

Originally posted by reincarnate
My comments speak the truth. No doubt the Panasonic went into limited distribution and the price was jacked up way over list price because of the marketing efforts made right here.

Hmm, where is the proof of that statement?

I was at Ultimate just a couple of days ago (11-9-2004) and $383 dollars was the "sale" posted price. Are Ultimate managers stupid? No!

They based it on the MSRP from Panasonic. Do I hear conspiracy theory? :rolleyes:

No we have a formerly best value and technology mass producer of audio and video products, releasing defective (MACRO BLOCKING) products at prices way over list, and into limited distribution channels.

IMO, this is the best upscaling player on the market (at least in the sub $400 price range)

The fact is there are many Dvd players available which have comparable performance for considerably less money.

Examples?

Ive had 2 other upscaling players and neither of them are as good as this panny and was about the same price.

As for you assuming that I bought a Denon or Panasonic 97 that is just plain wrong. I did buy a Samsung 931 player and a Samsung DLP projector when they first came out years ago and noticed noisy performance, especially in dark scenes. In fact VHS tapes have a better S/N ratio than this common combination. Many here to will learn this lesson too after paying out $$$. So much for the benifets of digital transmission.

Again, I do not understand why you are even posting here. What is your point? That this player is overpriced? That this player is not as good as the others out there?

Do you even have experience with this player?
Have you compared it to the Sammy 931 or Denon 1910?

Becuase currently I have ALL 3 of them and I can say without a doubt that the Panny is the best of the 3 in regards to features and pic quality.

If not, please stop junking up this thread with your useless crap (this thread is already long enough).

Akastp,

That's funny. I'm sure they'll get it worked out.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
LiteUp! Bytehoven,

When I have the player's "User" brightness setting to "0" I can't see the BTB stripe no matter what I do with the display's brightness. Setting the "User" brightness to +1 reveals the BTB stripe. I then reduce the display's brightness so that the BTB stripe fades into the overall background.

Paul

That was my understanding and thanks for the confirmation.

Maybe in the near future, I can get my hands on a S97 and do some waveform tests.

RJ

There is now european (read: german) S-97 units that are region-free available so I guess that the rest of the market/world will get them very shortly. The bad side of the coin is that the price is about $500.

hi Paul

i have ordered a panny s97 (from Germany to Sweden). can the s97 play movies in 720p and 1080i in 50hz so that there isn't any juddering in fast moving scenes on PAL movies. (there probably is an answer to this in the thread but it is now about 60 pages long:p)

thanks in advance

Hello ZoomAir,

I have no PAL discs or displays. It was reported that the player can play PAL discs if they're region free.

Paul

LiteUp! Bytehoven:

The settings Paul listed does seem to work for his case. In my case using the same unit, but using standard TV type and normal picture mode, I can see BTB without any issues at all. It looks no different than my RP82's BTB to be honest.

It's best if you play with the settings and see what's best for you.

Sango

Agreed. The settings are mine and are just a guide to get started, help familiarize one with the numerous menus, and, hopefully, address the most frequent "How do I.....".

Paul

Originally posted by deekz
ahro,

Good to hear. How is the picture? What are you comparing it to (what was your previous dvd unit)?

How are you connecting it? Is it via DVI to HDMI or using an adaptor? Which cable or adaptor?

Thanks

deekz -

I sent you a quick PM. I still have the RP82 as well. I've said previously the S97 player is an improvement but not a 'knock your socks off' one. My previous setup was the RP82 and a Sanyo XGA projector with a 4x3 block. I must confess in many ways I liked the PQ better, but it might have been due to the smaller screen size. With my AE500 I have a screen of about 110 " diagonal, and with the old Sanyo, the screen size was about 84 " diagonal. The S97 is definitely a good player with lots of features, for me it rates slightly better than the RP82 and much better than the 3 other upscaled players that I've had and returned.

ahro -
What where those 3 other players ?

Originally posted by Penton-Man
ahro -
What where those 3 other players ?

The 841, Bravo D2, and the 1910.

Thank you, a good Potpourri.

Paul,

I went into the THX Optimizer on Monsters Inc and ran into the same type of anomaly you reported with the menu text not aligning with the background. You have to get to the individual tests before the problems shows up.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for the report. I don't have Monster's Inc. but if it happens more than once it can't be a single disc defect issue. Now I have something to approach Panasonic with.

Paul

I just got this DVD player and after reading comparisons with the XP50 I have decided just to stick with my old dvd player. Most people seem to think the differences between the two (particularly on a CRT TV) are insignificant.

If anyone is interested in purchasing it, email me at nohjy@hotmail.com. I am just looking to get back most of what I paid for it. The player has not been opened and it will be shipped double boxed as received from the seller (onecall). I will include the Onecall receipt as well. I have excellent ebay feedback.

JK

Originally posted by nohjy
I just got this DVD player and after reading comparisons with the XP50 I have decided just to stick with my old dvd player. Most people seem to think the differences between the two (particularly on a CRT TV) are insignificant.

If anyone is interested in purchasing it, email me at nohjy@hotmail.com. I am just looking to get back most of what I paid for it. The player has not been opened and it will be shipped double boxed as received from the seller (onecall). I will include the Onecall receipt as well. I have excellent ebay feedback.

JK

So you purchased the player but for some reason now feel the subjective views of others are of such great importance and benefit for determining what is best for you that they outweigh actually opening the box and trying it out.

Considering you have the box beside you that's just plain warped.

Depth Enhancer, MPEG DNR, 3D-NR

I've spent some time with each of the above noise reducer options and would like to share my thoughts. First off I'll say that yes all three of these noise reducers do work and all in slightly different manner. I know little of the algorithms and processing of how these filters work so I'll just offer my viewing observations.

Depth Enhancer

Effect is subtle but evident on a number of disks I've looked at at full player zoom plus full Iscan zoom. The filter averages dark and light areas in a random manner smoothing the image subtly on both the horizontal and vertical plain equally. This filter does not discriminate noise artifacts from non therefore smooths the entire image equally on all plains. Except for the smoothing effect this filter has no obvious artifacts. This filter seems to work more precisely on a more pixel by pixel basis and is far more subtle than the MPEG DNR.

MPEG DNR

This filter has the most obvious most intrusive effect of the three. It appears to work by smoothing much larger blocks of the image than the others but surprisingly smooths the image by smoothing pixels biased on the vertical axis. On setting one I can see the vertical streaking beginning to appear as the filter begins to squeeze out the contrasting elements of the image. The untouched lightly colored areas become thinner therefore also appear taller which gives the overall effect of light colored vertical streaking artifacts similar to what you see in scratched moving film but much finer obviously. At the highest position most evidence of the streaking is gone as the smoothing oils merge and become one. This filter does not discriminate and affects the entire image.

3D-NR

This filter is quite interesting and is completely different from the other two. It has no affect on a static image or parts of the image free of visible noise. Therefore when either the image is paused or when no noise is present the filter does nothing, to use a military term it works like a smart bomb with little collateral damage. The filter attacks only the quick moving noise artifacts of the image and instead of the usual smoothing method of concealment this NR instead somehow slows down the quick movment to a relative crawl and in some cases to a stand still (sort of like digital molasses filter). I've noticed the NR does not work with all types of noise where on some noisy images it's effect was obvious while seemingly similar conditions in other images no effect was noticed. This filter has no negative smoothing/blurring streaking artifacts I could perceive and can be cranked up without worry. Overall this filter is very impressive though subtle.

Edit: After a few more days of using the 3D-NR filter I have noticed during cetain scenes it does have an obvious artifact. I've only witnessed this artifact on human skin during slow or fast movement but it must be present elswhere as well. The artifact is a quasi double image which appears in sections where there is obvious color changes such as blushed cheek bones for instance. When the subject moves one image legs behind by slightly but is pulled along like it's attached by an elastic.

Using 3D-NR and Depth Enhancer in tandem has a synergistic but subtle effect and works pretty well at removing minor noise and except for the double image artifact at times there is only minor loss of image quality. Setting Depth Enhancer on 1 (2, 3, and 4 have little additional benefit) and 3D-NR on 1 or 2 (not cranked as previously thought) should be suitable for most conditions but YMMV.

Since all images have a certain amount of noise I feel comfortable turning on these two filters and just leave it. If further NR is required then simply using the MPEG DNR at setting 1 or 2 should suffice, but I would avoid using this filter unless necessary.

Hope this helps.

Hugh (corrected!!!), did you look at my pics?

Sango

nohjy:

I don't fit under the most because I've seen the difference the CRT TV and the S97 beats the RP82.

Sango

Originally posted by Sango
Huge, did you look at my pics?

Sango

Huge? That's what my wife call me. I looked at some of the macroblocking pics but that's it. Did you have any particular pics in mind?

Sorry bad typo Hugh lol!! I corrected the post too ahahha!

Not sure if you noticed the pics which I uploaded with tests for the different TV Type modes.

Originally posted by Sango
Sorry bad typo Hugh lol!! I corrected the post too ahahha!

Not sure if you noticed the pics which I uploaded with tests for the different TV Type modes.

Could you direct me to the post number?

I want to note before I view these pics that from your pics I've seen so far it's apparent that many have an obvious horizontal line with the top section a slightly different tone/color/brightness from bottom. Not sure what would cause this (refresh rates???) but they may cloud the results somewhat.

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4638804#post4638804) ya go.

AkaStp, you cannot return a unopened item back to OneCall for a refund. It would be best if the unsatisfied buyer sell it at eBay, this way, he can get the money he paid for the 'S97. Because of the demand for this DVD player, he may be able to sell his for more than he bought it for.

By the way, I sold my DVD-RP82 at eBay for $250, even though I bought it for less than $230 at OneCall two years ago! :D

I bought my RP82 from $197 from Video Only two years ago!!

Sango,

I just had a quick look, I'll get at them tomorrow but somethings going on with the brightness. Just curious if a flash being used or if the photos were taken with ambiant light in the room? It appears there is light reflected off the screen.

Hugh:

I don't use flash on the TV since the whole picture is wiped out by the reflection of the flash.

The pictures were taken in my living room in darkness at midnight (12 am) with the only light source comming from the TV itself. My TV is setup with 50% contast and brightness for normal viewing use.

The werid light reflection are you're referring to is from the camera as it can't seem to handle bright light. The Sango and one Inu Yasha/Kagome pic came out fine, however, I had to put my contast down to 35% for the werid reflection thing to go away. This also included the one IY comparison but the CRT one shown the reflection at the lower contrast in CRT mode while the PROJ mode didn't show it since it was a bit darker.

The tests were done at 50/50. The same done with the macroblocking around 9 am.

about macroblocking, my 4805 projector has the same faroudja chip in it so whether i'm watching over 480p and up or 480i, i'm still going to get macroblocking?

Originally posted by Sango
nohjy:

I don't fit under the most because I've seen the difference the CRT TV and the S97 beats the RP82.

Sango



Sango:

So, even with the macroblocking you feel the S97 is better than the RP82? Can you tell me why you feel that way. This macroblocking thing really concerns me. I don't want fee floating colors and shapes in my blacks. I don't have them with my XP50. I think this is a case where you are getting a sharper picture witht he S97, but more artifacts as well.

John

Paul, in your setup guidance, you indicate :
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4 (if it can be selected)
I received my S97 yesterday, set it up per your guidance, but didn't have any option to change Color Space. It defaulted to RGB. Is the parameter dependent on some other setting?
Also, echoing mallu2u, if anyone has set the player up with a Sony XBR RPTV, would appreciate your recommendations.

Originally posted by megamii
AkaStp, you cannot return a unopened item back to OneCall for a refund. It would be best if the unsatisfied buyer sell it at eBay, this way, he can get the money he paid for the 'S97. Because of the demand for this DVD player, he may be able to sell his for more than he bought it for.

By the way, I sold my DVD-RP82 at eBay for $250, even though I bought it for less than $230 at OneCall two years ago! :D

Actually, you can return an unopened item to Onecall within 30 days.

Jason

hi everyone

does anyone know if it makes a difference what kind of Video DAC you have, for example the Denon 1910 has a 54Mhz/10-bit video DAC and the panny s97 has an 216Mhz/11-bit video DAC

for comparing the much more expensive Pioneer dv-668AV has a 216Mhz/12-bit video DAC

does this make a difference in PQ

thanks in advance

Originally posted by JKA/V
Actually, you can return an unopened item to Onecall within 30 days.

Jason

Jason -
Don't forget to deduct $269. from the next check you send in the mail to your numero uno advocate.

We must keep the books correct for I.R.S. purposes. :) :D :)

Originally posted by mallu2u
Any tips on Settings for this player with RPTVs? I have a Sony XBR LCD RPTV.

Any tips for above? I shall be receiving the player today and setting it up later tonite or early tomorrow morning. Wil start with the HDMI-DVI adapter for now since I already have a DVI-DVI Gefen cable.

LOL I'll get right on that ;)

Jason

Originally posted by Hugh2
Depth Enhancer, MPEG DNR, 3D-NR

I've spent some time with each of the above noise reducer options and would like to share my thoughts. First off I'll say that yes all three of these noise reducers do work and all in slightly different manner. I know little of the algorithms and processing of how these filters work so I'll just offer my viewing observations.

Depth Enhancer

Effect is subtle but evident on a number of disks I've looked at at full player zoom plus full Iscan zoom. The filter averages dark and light areas in a random manner smoothing the image subtly on both the horizontal and vertical plain equally. This filter does not discriminate noise artifacts from non therefore smooths the entire image equally on all plains. Except for the smoothing effect this filter has no obvious artifacts. This filter seems to work more precisely on a more pixel by pixel basis and is far more subtle than the MPEG DNR.

MPEG DNR

This filter has the most obvious most intrusive effect of the three. It appears to work by smoothing much larger blocks of the image than the others but surprisingly smooths the image by smoothing pixels biased on the vertical axis. On setting one I can see the vertical streaking beginning to appear as the filter begins to squeeze out the contrasting elements of the image. The untouched lightly colored areas become thinner therefore also appear taller which gives the overall effect of light colored vertical streaking artifacts similar to what you see in scratched moving film but much finer obviously. At the highest position most evidence of the streaking is gone as the smoothing oils merge and become one. This filter does not discriminate and affects the entire image.

3D-NR

This filter is quite interesting and is completely different from the other two. It has no affect on a static image or parts of the image free of visible noise. Therefore when either the image is paused or when no noise is present the filter does nothing, to use a military term it works like a smart bomb with little collateral damage. The filter attacks only the quick moving noise artifacts of the image and instead of the usual smoothing method of concealment this NR instead somehow slows down the quick movment to a relative crawl and in some cases to a stand still (sort of like digital molasses filter). I've noticed the NR does not work with all types of noise where on some noisy images it's effect was obvious while seemingly similar conditions in other images no effect was noticed. This filter has no negative smoothing/blurring streaking artifacts I could perceive and can be cranked up without worry. Overall this filter is very impressive though subtle.

Using 3D-NR and Depth Enhancer in tandem has a synergistic but subtle effect and works pretty well at removing minor noise with no apparent loss of image quality. Set Depth Enhancer on 1 (2, 3, and 4 have little additional benefit) and set 3D-NR on 4.

Since all images have a certain amount of noise I feel comfortable turning on these two filters and just leave it. If further NR is required then simply using the MPEG DNR at setting 1 or 2 should suffice, but I would avoid using this filter unless necessary.

Hope this helps.

Hugh-
Please tell us (if not again) what display you are using and how you are hooked up.

Thanks

Originally posted by gfinvt
Paul, in your setup guidance, you indicate :
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4 (if it can be selected)
I received my S97 yesterday, set it up per your guidance, but didn't have any option to change Color Space. It defaulted to RGB. Is the parameter dependent on some other setting?
Also, echoing mallu2u, if anyone has set the player up with a Sony XBR RPTV, would appreciate your recommendations.

Apparantly the player can detect via the HDMI what is allowable and what isn't. For example, the player "knows" about my:

Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD TV:

1. RGB, 4:4:4:, and 4:2:2 are selectable
2. That 480p and 1080i are allowable (my LCD doesn't support 720p)

Hitachi Plasma TV:

1. RGB only
2. That 480p, 720p and 1080i are allowable

Paul

Correct, it detects the hdmi tv's edid and sets the players options, and doesn't show what won't work.

Jason

Hugh2, excellent work!

I'll add the info (with credit!) to the main posting. I didn't think to try them with a zoomed picture.

Paul

Originally posted by AkaStp
Hugh2, good job on figuring out the Depth Enhancer, MPEG DNR, 3D-NR settings.

Yeah, good job.

I played around with mine last night while watching 'Field of Dreams' and set them like this...

Depth +1
MPEG DNR +2
3D DNR +1

I think this is the best settings for me. Seems like a good balance.

Paul: Has there been any response from Panasonic on the MB issue? Firmware Release to resolve issues?

Yes. Nothing indicated. It will "considered in their future product line". I'm following up with Panasonic. If I receive any meaningful information I'll post it. Otherwise not. No need for "anything yet?"-type requests. I've written Genesis Microchip for the second time. No response.

Paul/mallu2u,

I have another idea about macroblocking as well (getting it fixed). I think a few people should send an email to Genesis/Faroudja, since they are likely the culprit. I am sure Genesis fed Panasonic the setup firmware for the FL2310 that is causing this issue, so they are the ones that are ultimately going to have to fix it. Why not go right to the source? This is more than likely a simple firmware modification for them, and they are the experts on it. I would suggest mentioning the Panasonic DVD-S97 (and maybe even a link to this forum thread) in the email to them so they know there are some Panasonic owners noticing this and they will contact Panasonic directly about it as well.

Here are their websites (since they are now merged):

http://www.gnss.com/home.phtml
http://gnss.com/products/FLI2300.phtml
http://gnss.com/contact_us.phtml

Genesis Microchip (Delaware) Inc.
2150 Gold Street
Alviso, CA 95002 USA
1 (408) 262-6599 tel
1 (408) 262-6365 fax

Sales (U.S. & Canada)
sales-north-america@gnss.com

For non-sales inquiries, please email us at
infobox@gnss.com

============================

http://www.faroudja.com/home.phtml

support@faroudja.com
(408) 635-4200



Originally posted by mallu2u
Paul: Has there been any response from Panasonic on the MB issue? Firmware Release to resolve issues?

LiteUp!

Already done.

Paul

Has anyone tried to play a DVD+R DL disc in this player? It seems it has a hard time reading my Verbatim DVD+R DL discs burned from a Sony DRU-700a drive. It can't read certain titles of within a disc, usually in the middle of the data stream, probably the start of the second layer, I'd imagine. Any others try it out? Thanks

Ed

Having mixed emotions on the S97. Had it 3 days now, and can't tell if I am happy or sad.


Having 2 main issues at this point, and I would appreciate ANY help.

1. When I play an anamorphic DVD like LOTR: Two Towers there are two lines, not solid, but fuzzy, 1/8th of an inch from the top and from the bottom of the black bars. It almost looks like somone took a dull pencil and drew a line across the picture - it is very annoying and noticeable. Sometimes on the bottom you can see a couple more faint lines above the darker line as well. Why it is bothersome, is because there isn't a clean blend between the picture and the black bars. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly, but I have tried every setting on my DVD player and my TV (Toshiba 52HMX84) and it doesn't change at all. I am swapping out the DVD player tonight to see if it does it on my old one. Anyone have an idea of what this could be? When I play a regular widescreen DVD like Hellboy, the lines aren't there, or when I watch regular TV, they aren't there. Only when watching anamorphic widescreen do these 2 lines appear, exactly the same distance from the black bar on the top and bottom. I have all the setting correct with pic size and my DVD player - have even tried other settings for the hell of it, and they don't go away. I couldn't contrast them out, or color them out either. Ideas?

2. A lot of DVDs look horrible. Tried to watch Pulp Fiction DVD last night and couldn't - the picture could be described as "blurry - pixelated - muddy" to the point where you couldn't focus on anything or anyone. Slow pans make you sick. Tried 480p, tried 720p, tried 1081i DVD input, nothing. What is so mind-blowing is that a movie like Star Wars: Episode II looks HD on the TV - brilliant, beautiful, clear, crisp, vibrant, and then Pulp Fiction is unwatchable on the same TV. What am I missing?

Thanks everyone for helping me - it is a whole new world made up of new choices and sacrifices.

What de-interlacing mode are you running in? Have you tried Auto 2? Maybe this is a problem with detecting film mode vs. video mode. Do you see this problem when using both component and HDMI outputs?

Originally posted by Lodey
Having mixed emotions on the S97. Had it 3 days now, and can't tell if I am happy or sad.


Having 2 main issues at this point, and I would appreciate ANY help.

1. When I play an anamorphic DVD like LOTR: Two Towers there are two lines, not solid, but fuzzy, 1/8th of an inch from the top and from the bottom of the black bars. It almost looks like somone took a dull pencil and drew a line across the picture - it is very annoying and noticeable. Sometimes on the bottom you can see a couple more faint lines above the darker line as well. Why it is bothersome, is because there isn't a clean blend between the picture and the black bars. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly, but I have tried every setting on my DVD player and my TV (Toshiba 52HMX84) and it doesn't change at all. I am swapping out the DVD player tonight to see if it does it on my old one. Anyone have an idea of what this could be? When I play a regular widescreen DVD like Hellboy, the lines aren't there, or when I watch regular TV, they aren't there. Only when watching anamorphic widescreen do these 2 lines appear, exactly the same distance from the black bar on the top and bottom. I have all the setting correct with pic size and my DVD player - have even tried other settings for the hell of it, and they don't go away. I couldn't contrast them out, or color them out either. Ideas?

2. A lot of DVDs look horrible. Tried to watch Pulp Fiction DVD last night and couldn't - the picture could be described as "blurry - pixelated - muddy" to the point where you couldn't focus on anything or anyone. Slow pans make you sick. Tried 480p, tried 720p, tried 1081i DVD input, nothing. What is so mind-blowing is that a movie like Star Wars: Episode II looks HD on the TV - brilliant, beautiful, clear, crisp, vibrant, and then Pulp Fiction is unwatchable on the same TV. What am I missing?

Thanks everyone for helping me - it is a whole new world made up of new choices and sacrifices.

What de-interlacing mode are you running in? Have you tried Auto 2?

Yes - tried every mode and it doesn't change.

TV does have an option to change picture type from Film or Video - tried both, fuzzy lines still stay there.

Don't have component cables, will get some and try.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
[B]Paul/mallu2u,

I have another idea about macroblocking as well (getting it fixed). I think a few people should send an email to Genesis/Faroudja, since they are likely the culprit. I am sure Genesis fed Panasonic the setup firmware for the FL2310 that is causing this issue, so they are the ones that are ultimately going to have to fix it.

It is my understanding, once the FLI process is integrated into the OEM product, it is the software folks at the OEM who need to tweak the FLI process for best results. That's one reason why all FLI equipped players are not alike.

Denon, in speaking with one of their tech support folks, siad thay did not realize they were going to have to spend so much time/effort making tweaks to the 2910/3910 & others. Another words, DENON & not Genesis, is making the adjustments to dial in the FLI process as well as anything else in the signal path.

IMHO, it is the same for Panasonic. Panasonic has to expend the effort and resources to correct any S97 short comings, not blame it on Genesis. Well, in so far as anyone would agree the FLI2310 is a decent process to use in the 1st place. Based on other player integrations, the FLI2310 has the potential to perform much better.

Based on the picture quality challanges, when you scale the image on the S97, I have to think maybe there are other stages in the digital signal chain that might contribute to artifacts. Artifacts we might be blaming on the FLI2310, but are really a build up of smaller errors along the way.

The S97 seems to have really pushed the envelope with the range of image controls available over the HDMI output. IMHO, the S97 might end up being the perfect "les is more" poster child.

Just my 2 cents

DVD+R DL are sketchy on any player these days. If the problem is in the middle of the movie on a full disc, this is likely an burn error problem at the layer change. You can use your Lite-On burner to do an error scan of the disc with Kprobe to see how well the disc was burned. You can get more info on this at cdfreaks.com in the Burning Hardware Forum (Lite-On section). You should also make sure you bitset any DVD you burn to DVD-ROM.

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=83441

Originally posted by ehchan
Has anyone tried to play a DVD+R DL disc in this player? It seems it has a hard time reading my Verbatim DVD+R DL discs burned from a Sony DRU-700a drive. It can't read certain titles of within a disc, usually in the middle of the data stream, probably the start of the second layer, I'd imagine. Any others try it out? Thanks

Ed

I have a 6.1 surround sound system and since switching to the S97 I don't seem to get sound from the rear speaker. I have HDMI audio turned off and am running digital audio to my av reciever over coax. I selected multi speaker system in the audio menu.

Bytehoven, interesting, you may be correct. This could be a problem with the way MEI/Panasonic's MPEG decoder is interfacing to the FLI2310. Denon is using a different MPEG decoder and they are not having a problem.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
It is my understanding, once the FLI process is integrated into the OEM product, it is the software folks at the OEM who need to tweak the FLI process for best results. That's one reason why all FLI equipped players are not alike.

Denon, in speaking with one of their tech support folks, siad thay did not realize they were going to have to spend so much time/effort making tweaks to the 2910/3910 & others. Another words, DENON & not Genesis, is making the adjustments to dial in the FLI process as well as anything else in the signal path.

IMHO, it is the same for Panasonic. Panasonic has to expend the effort and resources to correct any S97 short comings, not blame it on Genesis. Well, in so far as anyone would agree the FLI2310 is a decent process to use in the 1st place. Based on other player integrations, the FLI2310 has the potential to perform much better.

Based on the picture quality challanges, when you scale the image on the S97, I have to think maybe there are other stages in the digital signal chain that might contribute to artifacts. Artifacts we might be blaming on the FLI2310, but are really a build up of smaller errors along the way.

The S97 seems to have really pushed the envelope with the range of image controls available over the HDMI output. IMHO, the S97 might end up being the perfect "les is more" poster child.

Just my 2 cents

I'm sure the "fix" (if any) will come from Panasonic. However, Panasonic may need Genesis Microchip assistance. If there's a mistake in the firmware being made, several major corporations made it. To some degree the issue could impact the Genesis/Faroudja reputution so it would be in Genesis/Faroudja's best interest to contact Panasonic (and others) and work on what to do for a remedy.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I'm sure the "fix" (if any) will come from Panasonic. However, Panasonic may need Genesis Microchip assistance. If there's a mistake in the firmware being made, several major corporations made it. To some degree the issue could impact the Genesis/Faroudja reputution so it would be in Genesis/Faroudja's best interest to contact Panasonic (and others) and work on what to do for a remedy.

Paul

Paul,

Given Denon will be using the Silicon Optix’s Realta chip in the 5910, I'd say your prediction has already come to pass.

The other thing I would mention, many of the monitor based calibrations controls available for analog inputs, are not available for HDMI or DVI. My HT1000 is like this in that I can adjust Y/C on a Component input via a service mode control, but I can not for a DVI input. If I had the service mode adjustment for Y/C for DVI on the HT1000, I would simply tweak it and it might be the end of the story.

So we are on ascending feature curve for both players and monitors, and hopefully all parties involved will make their best efforts when they design/update their hardware, to provide the most calibration flexibility.

Originally posted by Lodey
2. A lot of DVDs look horrible. Tried to watch Pulp Fiction DVD last night and couldn't - the picture could be described as "blurry - pixelated - muddy" to the point where you couldn't focus on anything or anyone. Slow pans make you sick. Tried 480p, tried 720p, tried 1081i DVD input, nothing. What is so mind-blowing is that a movie like Star Wars: Episode II looks HD on the TV - brilliant, beautiful, clear, crisp, vibrant, and then Pulp Fiction is unwatchable on the same TV. What am I missing?

Thanks everyone for helping me - it is a whole new world made up of new choices and sacrifices.

I'm curious as to which version of Pulp Fiction you are watching. The older release was non-anamorphic and never looked very good. The newer 2 disc release looks very good. (As a point of reference I don't have a Panasonic S97 so I can't test the movie out for you.)

nohjy:

I felt that the S97 is better than the RP82 because I gotten a more detailed picture. Not sure it I noticed it was really sharper, but I'll have to check it again on Sunday since I'm out of town.

I did see werid banding/macroblocking in the screen shots I provided which I posted it on, other than that it seems ok. It's just up to Panasonic to provide a solution to fix this problem which is the issue at the moment.

Originally posted by Randy384
I have a 6.1 surround sound system and since switching to the S97 I don't seem to get sound from the rear speaker. I have HDMI audio turned off and am running digital audio to my av reciever over coax. I selected multi speaker system in the audio menu.

It may be your selection of multi speaker system in the audio menu. I have 7.1 surround system and its working just fine. The only difference between your set up and mine is that I am using optical cable instead of coax to my AV receiver. HDMI audio is set to off and bitstream is selected for DD and DTS. Both discrete 6.1 (e.g., Gladiator, LOTR) and matrixed 6.1 DD/ES and DTS/EX (e.g., Starwars) comes across without any problem.

Try unselecting multi-speaker option.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
It is my understanding, once the FLI process is integrated into the OEM product, it is the software folks at the OEM who need to tweak the FLI process for best results. That's one reason why all FLI equipped players are not alike.

Denon, in speaking with one of their tech support folks, siad thay did not realize they were going to have to spend so much time/effort making tweaks to the 2910/3910 & others. Another words, DENON & not Genesis, is making the adjustments to dial in the FLI process as well as anything else in the signal path.

IMHO, it is the same for Panasonic. Panasonic has to expend the effort and resources to correct any S97 short comings, not blame it on Genesis. Well, in so far as anyone would agree the FLI2310 is a decent process to use in the 1st place. Based on other player integrations, the FLI2310 has the potential to perform much better.

Based on the picture quality challanges, when you scale the image on the S97, I have to think maybe there are other stages in the digital signal chain that might contribute to artifacts. Artifacts we might be blaming on the FLI2310, but are really a build up of smaller errors along the way.

The S97 seems to have really pushed the envelope with the range of image controls available over the HDMI output. IMHO, the S97 might end up being the perfect "les is more" poster child.

Just my 2 cents

I agree with above. Fix should be expected from Panasonic. When Denon can make it work at their end for 2910 and 3910, why can't Panasonic? Although it is a Genesis issue but it is reasonable to expect something more from Panny that we can install on player than from Genesis. Otherwise what Genesis releases may or may not be approved by panny to install on their dvd players. Panny in my opinion is the way to go.

I'm approaching the problem from both sides.

Has Denon fixed the macroblock issue with the 2910/3910 at 1080i with a firmware update. I thought that just 720p was "improved".

Paul

Originally posted by LiteUp!
DVD+R DL are sketchy on any player these days. If the problem is in the middle of the movie on a full disc, this is likely an burn error problem at the layer change. You can use your Lite-On burner to do an error scan of the disc with Kprobe to see how well the disc was burned. You can get more info on this at cdfreaks.com in the Burning Hardware Forum (Lite-On section). You should also make sure you bitset any DVD you burn to DVD-ROM.

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=83441

I have burned some +RW disks as well. I shall get the player later tonite. Will test tomorrow for those disks and report back.

Paul: I have read on the denon threads on many occasions that denon releases a firmware that corrected the issue. But I did not read more on that and therefore cannot confirm whether it fixed the issue on both 720p or 1080i. I shall definitely report back if I come across it.

I had read of a firmware release but I thought that corrected a chroma problem and improved slightly a 720p macroblock issue.

Paul

Anyone here play The Two Towers or Fellowship and look closely at about a 1/2 inch above and below the black bars, in the picture - do you see any noticeable horizontal line (semi-fuzzy, about 1/10th of an inch thick [noticeable from 8-9 feet back)?? This is driving me nuts...

Originally posted by AkaStp
Doesn't the multi-speaker setup in the S97 only apply to the 5.1 analog outputs and not the digital coax or optical outputs?

You got to my point more directly. It may be that somehow multi-speaker selection has a priority over digital out and is only sending 5.1 signal - just guessing. So if you can unselect, it may solve his problem....

Paul just curious, did the Denon firmware mention about fixing macroblocking at 480p (if it had any)?

I know very little about Denon firmware fixes.

Also just noticed your new topic. Isn't it supposed to be 3910 as well?

I bought an S97 last night and spent a few hours playing with it. I am not particularly impressed with it for the price.

I have it hooked up to a Mits 52725 DLP via the supplied HDMI cable, and audio via the 5.1 analog outputs to my receiver.

I also bought the Avia disk but haven't had time to use it yet.

The biggest problem I found was what Paul documented on the first page:

Low IRE gray/pink: It is noted that HDMI->HDMI seems to introduce a slight "pinkish" cast to gray. It can be seen with 10IRE field on Avia disc.

This was particularly bad in the opening scenes of "Ronin". In the bar interior scene, there were splotches of pink everywhere. One of the main things I want the player to do is handle dark scenes without losing detail in the shadows, and this was a big disappointment. Even in bright pictures like in Ice Age, there is a slight pink tinge. Hopefully the pink can be tuned out. Paul mentioned on the first page that there was no pink/gray using component. What's the point of buying an HDMI upscaling player if the non-upscaled component gets you a better picture than HDMI?

Next, I found the picture to have very obvious "pixelation" in the darker backgrounds. In a sunset scene where the color transitions from light to darker, it was not a smooth transition...there appeared to be obvious color "steps" as the color changed. Is this "macroblocking"?

I was comparing the player to my 5 year old non-progressive toshiba player, and my old player doesn't have the above problems. I'm no expert, but I can't see a huge improvement in the picture quality, and the picture is even worse when the pink and pixelation problems appear.

Edit: I had also tried a samsung HD841 a little while ago, and I thought that the picture was significantly better vs my old player (except for "black crush" over DVI), whereas I did not get that impression with the panasonic.

Finally, I have a question about the audio. As I said, I'm using the 5.1 outputs to my receiver. In the speaker setup, I can get the test tones audible out of all my speakers correctly, but when I play a 5.1 dvd, there is no sound from the rear surrounds unless I change the "AV Enhancer" setting from Off to one of the other Auto or User settings. Is this the way it should be set for 5.1 audio? Am I actually getting real 5.1 audio like this, or is it just a"simulated" surround sound like prologic? The reason I ask is that I can't find anything in the menus or front panel/on-screen displays that will confirm if it is in fact sending out 5.1 audio. Also, the "D.MIX" (downmix) is lit on the front panel. Am I getting some kind of 5.1 downmixed to 2 channels? There are no comprehensive explanations in the manual of what the front panel display contains. Kinda lame because my old player shows you on the front panel display if the audio out is dolby or DTS 5.1.
If I am in fact getting 5.1 sound with AV Enhancer turned on, then it is no better than the 5.1 from my receiver's decoder.

I will try to optimize the picture with Avia, but right now I don't see this player giving me more than my old player does except for the ability to play MP3's, JPGs, CDrs, DVD-A and DVD+Rs. And I can buy a $100 player to do that.

I don't know what other players to consider at this price level if I return it. I really wanted to like it, and don't feel like spending double the money for a denon 2910.

Originally posted by Lodey
Anyone here play The Two Towers or Fellowship and look closely at about a 1/2 inch above and below the black bars, in the picture - do you see any noticeable horizontal line (semi-fuzzy, about 1/10th of an inch thick [noticeable from 8-9 feet back)?? This is driving me nuts...

I have the LG7832 (Zenith clone) and I see the exact same line. I only see in the LOTR DVDs. Have not seen it in any other DVD. I assumed it was something in the DVD itself.

Next, I found the picture to have very obvious "pixelation" in the darker backgrounds. In a sunset scene where the color transitions from light to darker, it was not a smooth transition...there appeared to be obvious color "steps" as the color changed. Is this "macroblocking"?

That can be, because if you try interlaced mode on the same scene and don't see anything which looks like it, that's your answer!

Originally posted by Lodey
Anyone here play The Two Towers or Fellowship and look closely at about a 1/2 inch above and below the black bars, in the picture - do you see any noticeable horizontal line (semi-fuzzy, about 1/10th of an inch thick [noticeable from 8-9 feet back)?? This is driving me nuts...

I see the same on mine also with my XP30 to my Sony HS20. I wondered if it was a scaling artifact of the projector. I don't think it's the S97. What's your display?

Originally posted by Randy384
I have a 6.1 surround sound system and since switching to the S97 I don't seem to get sound from the rear speaker. I have HDMI audio turned off and am running digital audio to my av reciever over coax. I selected multi speaker system in the audio menu.

Make sure you didn't inadvertently turn off the PCM mode. The PCM needs to be on ; 44, 48, or 192, your pick and both DD and DTS are in bitstream mode.

Originally posted by Franchot
I'm curious as to which version of Pulp Fiction you are watching. The older release was non-anamorphic and never looked very good. The newer 2 disc release looks very good. (As a point of reference I don't have a Panasonic S97 so I can't test the movie out for you.)

I agreed, good quality transfer dvds will make the PQ look awesome. I have the S97 and it will tell me which dvds that I have are crappy.

I hate to ask this question because I know it indicates some laziness on my part. I spend most of my time trying to figure out which projector I am going to get and can't build up enough energy to read this thread.

Can someone who has read this thread tell me if this is a "good purchase". I want to pair it with either a Sony HS51 or a Panasonic AE700. I want to spend around $200 street.

I usually do tons of research on anything I buy, but just can't bear to do so on a dvd player for some reason. Any thoughts? Sorry for the laziness.

reaper

how do guys rate the quality of hdmi-hdmi cable shipped with the player?

Reaper, it's not going to be a good buy if you just want to spend $200 street. Best you're going to get right now is ~$70 more than that. Others here will know if it'll pair well with the Panny AE700 or Sony HS51.

Reaper,

This player doesn't sell for $200 street.

Paul

mallu2u,

The cable works fine for me. It appears to be of decent quality. Reasonably flexible, not too thick, connector attaches fairly securely (for HDMI). No picture/audio problems noted attributable to the cable.

Paul

I see the same on mine also with my XP30 to my Sony HS20. I wondered if it was a scaling artifact of the projector. I don't think it's the S97. What's your display?

Well, this is interesting to say the least. I am viewing the S97 on a new Toshiba 52HMX84. I see the lines in all the LOTR movies, on top and bottom, and in some other movies too...

Going to try them tonight with component cables vs. HDMI and then on my old 480i player. So it is possible/probable these lines are problems with the movie/discs and not with my hardware, S97 & Toshiba 52HMX84?

Lodey,

Is the S97 configured for "auto zoom" mode to fill the screen or *any* zoom at all? The zooming feature, in my experience, is not one of the 'S97's strengths and can introduce artifacts.

Paul

One thing I would strongly suggest is if you are upgrading your equipment...make sure you get HDMI connections on both sides, your display and your source (DVD player, etc.) for optimal PQ and to make sure you don't have black or white crush problems with your digital connections. For now, it seems if you want to spend "around" 200.00, your best choices IMHO are the DVD-S97 or a used XP30/50 from EBay.

Originally posted by reaper
I hate to ask this question because I know it indicates some laziness on my part. I spend most of my time trying to figure out which projector I am going to get and can't build up enough energy to read this thread.

Can someone who has read this thread tell me if this is a "good purchase". I want to pair it with either a Sony HS51 or a Panasonic AE700. I want to spend around $200 street.

I usually do tons of research on anything I buy, but just can't bear to do so on a dvd player for some reason. Any thoughts? Sorry for the laziness.

reaper

I have the S97 and it will tell me which dvds that I have are crappy. TexGuy . . . and others,

I am just coming to the realization that is a bit scary, and please tell me if it is true. On my old DVD player and 36" Tube, EVERY DVD looked nice - some a bit nicer than others, but they all looked amazingly better than SD TV.

With playing 30-40 DVDs in the past two nights, a few minutes of each, I have realized there is dramatic difference between movies, especially, older ones. Hellboy, Gladiator, Star Wars Episode II look HD to me. Nightmare Before Christmas, Pulp Fiction, Far and Away, etc look extremely pixelated, grainy, and muddy and unclear.

Here is my golden question: I am not going to be able to make these movies look better on my TV (Toshiba 52HMX84), right? I shouldn't be killing myself trying to come up with ways to make these movies look good, right - tweaking settings, on both ends? With the basic settings I have, some movies look HD-like to me, so I know my set and S97 can show this quality, it is just something I wasn't prepared for - such a vast difference in DVD movie quality from HD-like to unwatchable. Ignorance is truly bliss. So, what do you do? It seems to me the mantra of new HD HT is "less selection better quality"

Ive noticed that upscaling players seem to show the DVD limitations.

For example...

The shimmering (or is it macroblocking?) on the walls in chancellor's office chapter of Star Wars AOTC DVD. I noticed it on my Denon 1910 also.

Has anyone else noticed this? Has anyone found a way to fix it?

Is the S97 configured for "auto zoom" mode to fill the screen or *any* zoom at all? The zooming feature, in my experience, is not one of the 'S97's strengths and can introduce artifacts. Paul, I will double-check that the auto-zoom is set to OFF instead of Auto. Thanks.

The shimmering (or is it macroblocking?) on the walls in chancellor's office chapter of Star Wars AOTC DVD. I noticed it on my Denon 1910 also.

Yes, but tweaking some settings, it has lessened, but when I first watched it, I saw shimmering, macro-blocking, the red walls were pixelating, it looked horrible while everything else looked perfect. A few minutes later they are in a hallway with BLUE walls and walkway and it looks how it should... some sort of red issue for me.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Lodey,

Is the S97 configured for "auto zoom" mode to fill the screen or *any* zoom at all? The zooming feature, in my experience, is not one of the 'S97's strengths and can introduce artifacts.

Paul

I somewhat disagree. I think this is a strength for those of us with some non-anamorphic DVDs (widescreen or not).

Yes, the picture quality decreases with the zoom, but the Denon and Sammy that I owned didn't have similar zoom features at all.

Since my DLP tv doesnt have a vertical zoom feature (like my MITS CRT did), non-anamorphic ws dvds could not be viewed at their proper aspect ratios.

This various zoom features were a big plus for this player in my opinion.

Was there another player out there with this capability?

Lodey,

I have noticed this as well. Not all movies are created equally...some are mastered downright poorly. Also, not all movies are encoded at the same bitrate (because some movies are not even mastered onto dual layer discs, only single layer with half the storage capacity). Lower bit rate means lower quality and mode MPEG artifacts (blockiness). This is why when hometheaterhifi.com reviews a movie, they also give a rating based on how well it is mastered/encoded.

Originally posted by Lodey
TexGuy . . . and others,

I am just coming to the realization that is a bit scary, and please tell me if it is true. On my old DVD player and 36" Tube, EVERY DVD looked nice - some a bit nicer than others, but they all looked amazingly better than SD TV.

With playing 30-40 DVDs in the past two nights, a few minutes of each, I have realized there is dramatic difference between movies, especially, older ones. Hellboy, Gladiator, Star Wars Episode II look HD to me. Nightmare Before Christmas, Pulp Fiction, Far and Away, etc look extremely pixelated, grainy, and muddy and unclear.

Here is my golden question: I am not going to be able to make these movies look better on my TV (Toshiba 52HMX84), right? I shouldn't be killing myself trying to come up with ways to make these movies look good, right - tweaking settings, on both ends? With the basic settings I have, some movies look HD-like to me, so I know my set and S97 can show this quality, it is just something I wasn't prepared for - such a vast difference in DVD movie quality from HD-like to unwatchable. Ignorance is truly bliss. So, what do you do? It seems to me the mantra of new HD HT is "less selection better quality"

Rock,

You're right, I should rephrase the observation: The *quality* of the zoomed picture of the zooming feature, in my experience, is not one of the 'S97's strengths and can introduce artifacts.

In my view, the Momitsu zoom results in a nicer picture but isn't nearly as flexible as the Panasonic's. And, yes, the Momitsu does the "anamorphic zoom" creating a nice simulation.

Paul

Help, No Progressiv Enable On Pana S97
I try for 2 days to get a progressiv signal from the component, no matter what I do, I only have a poor 15khz. It is not from my projector, I try other dvd and it is OK.
On the panasonic, I put Video/YPrPb, and put HDMI off and put 625p since I am in a PAL country, Impossible to have any progressiv signal, I checked all the cable and so....
What is happening, Can someone help me?

HELP

Bannani, you enable progressive mode in the picture mode!! It's clearly listed in the user manual.

----
Paul:

I have an idea... ! Write to Panasonic it's against the law to sell a product which has issues!! (Technically that's true!!!)

:rolleyes: what do you mean picture mode??? is it under the general menu like I have done??
thanks

Originally posted by bannani
Help, No Progressiv Enable On Pana S97
I try for 2 days to get a progressiv signal from the component, no matter what I do, I only have a poor 15khz. It is not from my projector, I try other dvd and it is OK.
On the panasonic, I put Video/YPrPb, and put HDMI off and put 625p since I am in a PAL country, Impossible to have any progressiv signal, I checked all the cable and so....
What is happening, Can someone help me?

HELP

I have no PAL TV so cannot try.

What options are available when you access the Video Ouput Mode?

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode:

I do not have a 625p option

Paul

:( That is what I ve done.

I have the choice between 625p 50hz for PAL and 525p for NTSC, it is already done but nothing my projector keep on teeling me 15kz like it received only interlaced signal

Originally posted by bannani
Help, No Progressiv Enable On Pana S97
I try for 2 days to get a progressiv signal from the component, no matter what I do, I only have a poor 15khz. It is not from my projector, I try other dvd and it is OK.
On the panasonic, I put Video/YPrPb, and put HDMI off and put 625p since I am in a PAL country, Impossible to have any progressiv signal, I checked all the cable and so....
What is happening, Can someone help me?

HELP

When you are playing movie, go to "display" on the remote, not "set up". You will find picture mode, now that is where it is.

bannani,

I don't know what's wrong. Have your DVD player seller, Panasonic, or the projector manufacturer been contacted? Perhaps there is a compatibility issue.

Anyone?

Paul

:) Great, I use display, and it works, I thought it was in the setup menu but it was not this way.

Thanks Paul;)

ah ha!! just as I suspected!!

Originally posted by Lodey
Having mixed emotions on the S97. Had it 3 days now, and can't tell if I am happy or sad.


Having 2 main issues at this point, and I would appreciate ANY help.

1. When I play an anamorphic DVD like LOTR: Two Towers there are two lines, not solid, but fuzzy, 1/8th of an inch from the top and from the bottom of the black bars. It almost looks like somone took a dull pencil and drew a line across the picture - it is very annoying and noticeable. Sometimes on the bottom you can see a couple more faint lines above the darker line as well. Why it is bothersome, is because there isn't a clean blend between the picture and the black bars. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly, but I have tried every setting on my DVD player and my TV (Toshiba 52HMX84) and it doesn't change at all. I am swapping out the DVD player tonight to see if it does it on my old one. Anyone have an idea of what this could be? When I play a regular widescreen DVD like Hellboy, the lines aren't there, or when I watch regular TV, they aren't there. Only when watching anamorphic widescreen do these 2 lines appear, exactly the same distance from the black bar on the top and bottom. I have all the setting correct with pic size and my DVD player - have even tried other settings for the hell of it, and they don't go away. I couldn't contrast them out, or color them out either. Ideas?



This could be an edge enhancement "feature"... My Sammy 931 (soon to be replaced by the S97) has it big time... it almost looks like a vertical ghosting in areas of high contrast?

it is a horizontal line... is sort of a "dark" ghosting... the line isn't sharp, it is sort of dull and fuzzy, but sitting back 9 feet you can see it run the entire length of the screen on top and on the bottom. If there was a pure white anamorphic shot It would be 100% clear . . . this is very bothersome, i tried changing almost every setting to see if it magically disappeared and it doesn't change, yet it is not a permanent screen feature or apparent in regular widescreen DVDs that fill my entire 16:9 screen.

Maybe it's a defect. Some movies have solid color opening credits. Does any other movie exhibit this ghosting?

Paul

Lodey,

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's a horizontal line 1 pixel thick about 5 or 6 pixels from the top and bottom edges, right? I see the same thing thing with a Panny A110 and a Sim2 300 Link via s-video. It only shows on 2.35:1 ratio movies, 1.78:1 ratio is fine. I know I've seen it on the movies you've mentioned and others as well. It's almost as if the display is showing part of the picture that would normally be lost in overscan (if that makes any sense). I bet those with a 2.35:1 screen don't see it as they probably overscan those pixels onto the border. Given the fact that this shows on different players and displays it pretty much rules out hardware as the cause unless this is unique to DLP based displays. What kind of display is yours? If I get some time this weekend I'll check out a couple other movies I've seen it in and try to get a screen shot of it as well.

Cameron

Dear lord:eek:

*only response from me switching to s97 from sammy 931*

... so THAT'S what blacks are supposed to look like

after some tweaking the picture is stunning! And no audio delay... who would've thought??

For a front projector you can get a screen made in pretty much any size you want. 1.78:1 (16:9) and 2.35:1 are probably the two most common ratios for front projectors. You can add a masking system and vary the screen ratio to anything you want. Perfect for the 1.85:1 movies. I'll have to see what 1.85:1 movies I have and see if it shows up on those as well.

Anybody know what chip the Sim2 300 Link uses for scaling? I'm hoping to find the S97 locally so I can see if it's scaling on the HDMI out is better than using the Sims scaler with component in. I'm still stuck in the s-video days so a player upgrade is very high on the list in any case. I was going to get the Pioneer 59avi, but luckily I read about the S97 the day before I was going to get it and have been waiting for it to be released. If only it didn't have the macro blocking problem.

I have the old version Pulp Fiction. So I tried. At first, it just look like Lodey said.

Originally posted by Lodey

With playing 30-40 DVDs in the past two nights, a few minutes of each, I have realized there is dramatic difference between movies, especially, older ones. Hellboy, Gladiator, Star Wars Episode II look HD to me. Nightmare Before Christmas, Pulp Fiction, Far and Away, etc look extremely pixelated, grainy, and muddy and unclear.


Then I check the "display setting", the manual zoom setting is other than 1.00. After I set it to 1.00 and "4:3 aspect" to "normal", the Pulp Fiction is as good as average dvd. Maybe it will work for your display.

Paul, I think you should add "You should NEVER use zoom function of S97."

This is my 2 cents.

Depends how the zoom is being used.

When I was testing, 4:3 material, I just use shrink. However I don't use "auto" since I want complete control of my aspect. I did play with the manual zoom a bit but I pretty mych left that at the default too.

Sango

Just a note of thanks to Paul and the other contributors. I have had my DVB318 for some time now. (When they first came out) While a very good player the S97S is even better. Thanks also to Jason whose store has always satisfied me.

I got the player yesterday and spent most of the day playing with it . It does have very confusing menus. Trying to get a progressive signal and being confused on the "Setup Menu" as opposed to the "Display Menu" ( (the same as a previous poster..I was sure that something was wrong with my unit)That took some pretty heavy concentration with the cryptic manual. I've also notice that you have to be pretty careful with the dvd tray. It is of a kind of flat design and it is easy not to have the dvd firmly "seated" before shutting the drawer. Dvd pops up caught in the drawer. (Scratched one DVD tonight)..will be more careful.. Just getting use to a new design. Progressive picture over component looks great and an improvement to my other 5 year old Panasonic. I do not have a HDMI blade yet for my Panasonic plasma 7uy so am a little concerned over the Pink introduced through Hdmi. Anyone else notice this phenomenon. Thankful for this site on answering some questions that come up (Zoom, and 5.1 channels.etc. it really takes some experimentation... the manual is really the most basic of basic.)Am anxious to see how HDMi looks. Overall I am pretty happy with the improvement in picture quality and expect this player to hold me over until Blue-ray comes on the scene!!!

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's a horizontal line 1 pixel thick about 5 or 6 pixels from the top and bottom edges, right? I see the same thing thing with a Panny A110 and a Sim2 300 Link via s-video. It only shows on 2.35:1 ratio movies, 1.78:1 ratio is fine. I know I've seen it on the movies you've mentioned and others as well. It's almost as if the display is showing part of the picture that would normally be lost in overscan (if that makes any sense). I bet those with a 2.35:1 screen don't see it as they probably overscan those pixels onto the border. Given the fact that this shows on different players and displays it pretty much rules out hardware as the cause unless this is unique to DLP based displays. What kind of display is yours? If I get some time this weekend I'll check out a couple other movies I've seen it in and try to get a screen shot of it as well.

YEP... you got it. It is not noticeable when you are watching the center area of the screen, but if you look for it, it is easily viewable - and bothersome. I notice this on a lot of movies I have that are anamorphic, but there are some that it doesn't show up on. I am watching these on a Toshiba 52HMX84 DLP over HDMI. So... are we agreeing that this is a disc problem and not a display problem? If this was the case, everyone would see this, right? hmmm

Originally posted by geekrule
I have the old version Pulp Fiction. So I tried. At first, it just look like Lodey said.



Then I check the "display setting", the manual zoom setting is other than 1.00. After I set it to 1.00 and "4:3 aspect" to "normal", the Pulp Fiction is as good as average dvd. Maybe it will work for your display.

Paul, I think you should add "You should NEVER use zoom function of S97."

This is my 2 cents.

Absolutely right. If the zoom is set at even 1.01 it seriously degrades the image.

corybuff:

Do not get confused with the HDMI and HDCP compliant DVI-D connections.

The Panasonic plasma has an optional DVI-D blade. A HDMI blade is not available for the Panasonic as of now.