coreybuff,

Yes the slight pink added to gray at low IREs (in my case anyway) has been noted and is already in the first post of the thread.

geekrule and ahro,

There is comment in the first post concerning the zoom and PQ but I added a little subtopic in the "Operation" section that explains the zoom a bit more with comments concerning the zoom and to check the settings if a picture problem is seen.

Thanks!

Paul

I see the lines but never noticed it until it was mentioned. I hooked up my old Bravo D1 and the lines are there also. DVD issue - not player.

Don



Originally posted by Lodey
YEP... you got it. It is not noticeable when you are watching the center area of the screen, but if you look for it, it is easily viewable - and bothersome. I notice this on a lot of movies I have that are anamorphic, but there are some that it doesn't show up on. I am watching these on a Toshiba 52HMX84 DLP over HDMI. So... are we agreeing that this is a disc problem and not a display problem? If this was the case, everyone would see this, right? hmmm

Pink color
HDMI allows for RGB and YCbCr. Is the pink color noticed when using RGB (via HDMI-to-HDMI and HDMI-to-DVI)?

Originally posted by mgkg3
You got to my point more directly. It may be that somehow multi-speaker selection has a priority over digital out and is only sending 5.1 signal - just guessing. So if you can unselect, it may solve his problem....

I use optical out (not coaxial) and have multichannel selected (vs. 2 Ch) in the Panny setup menu with nothing currently hooked up to the 5.1 out (at some point I plan to use it) and DD and DTS pass fine to my Onkyo 600 receiver.

The multichannel setting is pretty confusing. I too assume it only is relevant if you are using the 5.1 output on the s97 but who knows. When I go through the test tones, I get sound from my front right and left speakers but none of the others.

Also noticed that sometimes "DMix" appears on the front display of the s97 when playing a 5.1 movie. Receiver still shows DD 5.1 so I'm assuming I am getting true 5.1 but not sure why D.Mix is on the front panel.

EricScott:
"Also noticed that sometimes "DMix" appears on the front display of the s97 when playing a 5.1 movie. Receiver still shows DD 5.1 so I'm assuming I am getting true 5.1 but not sure why D.Mix is on the front panel."


Check out the bottom note on page 8 of the manual. When D.Mix shows up on the display it means that a soundtrack with three or more channels can be down-mixed to two channels.

Originally posted by CoolerKing101
EricScott:
"Also noticed that sometimes "DMix" appears on the front display of the s97 when playing a 5.1 movie. Receiver still shows DD 5.1 so I'm assuming I am getting true 5.1 but not sure why D.Mix is on the front panel."


Check out the bottom note on page 8 of the manual. When D.Mix shows up on the display it means that a soundtrack with three or more channels can be down-mixed to two channels.

Thanks coolerking. So it "can" but doesn't mean that it "is". Makes sense.

Cory:

I didn't find any difficulty reading the manual. Well I never opened it actually but did read the PDF and skimmed it. Pretty much when gotten the unit, I was going through all menus rapidly exploring where all features are located. Pretty much all done off by heart now =).
------
EricScott:

I think the multi and 2 ch. is referring to when the player is hooked analog. I can play a 5.1 disc and I can still hear other channels even thou it's set to 2. ch.

Quick question folks... is there a way to get rid of lip-synch issue within the DVD player? I know there is a "time delay" on the video but I tried all the settings and it didn't change much. Dialogue is just a fraction of a hair "off" from the image... sound before lips.

Lodey:

You're going to have to set the time delay on the reciever. I know my Harman Kardon has it but if you'rs doesn't, you're out of luck. There is another device you could get which is like a digital re-timer.

BTW, does the "time delay" on the S97 really work? Not sure if this is only referring to analog or digital, didn't try.

Sango

Mine has time delay on the receiver, but the problem is... HDTV is in perfect lip-synch, but DVDs are off by just a very tiny hair (i.e. they finish speaking and there lips finish moving a fraction of a second later) Time delay on receivers is for all audio I believe... will have to mess around with it.

I just ordered this the S97 for use with my new Samsung H-LP4663W DLP HDTV that I am getting today. Sound will go to a Marantz receiver and I will plug the S97 into the HDMI port on the TV since I will be using DVI from my Motorola 6412 STB DVR from Comcast.

Can anyone tell me if the unit comes with a HDMI cable (doubt it) and if so how long? Also is there any special things I should look for when buying a HDMI cable if I have to? Is sound an optical out plug?

I plan on upconverting to 720p for my TV via HDMI, and comparing it to the TV's built in upconverting function. Either way it beats the hell out of my 6 year old non-progressive scan Sony!

Thanks again...

Lody:

Some DVDs are like that, which is why this feature on receivers come in handy. I rarely use this feature, but I did play around with it once thou.

-------------
SaabCaptain:

The S97 does have an HDMI cable included. The cable is like a computer type looking thing on both ends.

Sango

do you know how long the included HDMI cable is... I think I would need at least 3-4 feet, maybe a bit more. I will have to measure today when I get the TV which will have the DVD in an AV rack to the side of the television.

Originally posted by SaabCaptain
I just ordered this the S97 for use with my new Samsung H-LP4663W DLP HDTV that I am getting today. Sound will go to a Marantz receiver and I will plug the S97 into the HDMI port on the TV since I will be using DVI from my Motorola 6412 STB DVR from Comcast.

Can anyone tell me if the unit comes with a HDMI cable (doubt it) and if so how long? Also is there any special things I should look for when buying a HDMI cable if I have to? Is sound an optical out plug?

I plan on upconverting to 720p for my TV via HDMI, and comparing it to the TV's built in upconverting function. Either way it beats the hell out of my 6 year old non-progressive scan Sony!

Thanks again...

You will be very pleased with 720p over HDMI. Have mine connected to an HLP5063 and it looks great. There are both optical and coaxial digital audio outs on the s97. As mentioned above, the player includes a 6 ft HDMI - HDMI cable, which I am using - quality seems decent and since it's a digital cable, shouldn't mater as much as analog.

By the way, in the initial setup choose "Projection TV" for Display Type, set HDMI Video to On and HDMI Audio to Off. You will probably want to use 720p and YPbPr 4:4:4 for your colorspace - find it looks better than RGB.

I'm sure you have idea what I'm talking about right now but once you get the player you will.

Enjoy.

I'm considering the S-97 (currently have an XP-50). What is involved in switching the outputsource. I want to hook up the HDMI (720P) to my new mits and the component out (480P) to my X1. Whats involved in swapping? Sounds like a better option than the distribution amp I was looking at :D

You might find there's output on both HDMI and component simultaneously. I *think* the component in that situation is 480i, otherwise turn the HDMI off via the SETUP and reconfigure the component out for 480p via the PICTURE menu.

Paul

Originally posted by EricScott
You will be very pleased with 720p over HDMI. Have mine connected to an HLP5063 and it looks great. There are both optical and coaxial digital audio outs on the s97. As mentioned above, the player includes a 6 ft HDMI - HDMI cable, which I am using - quality seems decent and since it's a digital cable, shouldn't mater as much as analog.

By the way, in the initial setup choose "Projection TV" for Display Type, set HDMI Video to On and HDMI Audio to Off. You will probably want to use 720p and YPbPr 4:4:4 for your colorspace - find it looks better than RGB.

I'm sure you have idea what I'm talking about right now but once you get the player you will.

Enjoy.

do you use the upconverting via the DVD player or do you let the TV do the upconvert? how do you set it to do one or the other to compare? really excited... i have the TV sitting on my floor right now but until Monday when i get some friends to help me move my huge old CRT i can't set it up. the DVD should arrive wednesday and on saturday the big finale... a 2 tuner HDTV DVR unit from comcast with all the HD content they can offer.

EricScott:

I would get SaabCaptain to try out the Standard TV type too to see what's better for him.

Originally posted by SaabCaptain
do you use the upconverting via the DVD player or do you let the TV do the upconvert? how do you set it to do one or the other to compare? really excited... i have the TV sitting on my floor right now but until Monday when i get some friends to help me move my huge old CRT i can't set it up. the DVD should arrive wednesday and on saturday the big finale... a 2 tuner HDTV DVR unit from comcast with all the HD content they can offer.

I let the s97 do the upconverting - that's really the reason you buy this player. By outputting 720p, all of the scaling is done in the player and passed digitally to the Samsung which just displays it. I briefly tried comparing 480p over HDMI to 720p over HDMI and there really was no comparison. Don't think you can even send 480i over HDMI - that would be kind of pointless anyway.

Originally posted by Temple
Has anyone tried either the Sony 975 or the Panny S97 with a 5085/5065 set?
Which Samsung DLP are you asking about?

HLP5085
HLN5065
HLM5065

Eric
480i via HDMI is a feature that not all manufacturers have implemented (the new Sony HDMI player does as does the Pioneer DV-59AVi and two of the Arcams). If you feed digital 480i to a video processor, the chances are that you will get better deinterlacing and scaling when this signal is fed to a display. However, 480i via HDMI is not really of any use to someone without a video processor.

NEED ADVICE

I am thinking about getting the panasonic s97, from what you guys describe it's one of the best out there for the price. But there is on question i have before i order it.

I have a SONY kdf-60xbr950, (a xbr grand wega)
Anyways, the native resolution of the tv is 1366 x 768. I was wondering if it was still worth it to get this dvd player and output via hdmi 720p to the tv, my only reservation is that the image would be upscaled TWICE (once by dvd player and once by the tv).

Is this a bad thing and are there any better alternatives?

I hear the upscaler in my tv is supposed to be good, is this true? and does that change anything?

Does anyone have this player on a RPCRT TV? What is your opinion of this player?

I have a Panny 53x54 hooked up through HDMI.

I just picked this player up from Ultimate and compared to my CP-72. The PQ is severly lacking. I popped in LoTR FoTR into the CP-72 and the EE version into the S97. Primarily to toggle back and forth from 480p in component 1 and 1080i in HDMI.

The mpeg noise is very apparent, not macro blocking but the mpeg decoder doesn't touch the CP-72/ The S97 also seems to have green push. Plus, there isn't that much added detail at all.

Any other RPCRT owners experience this problem? Or was I expecting too much from a HiDef upconverting DVD player for my RPCRT TV?

SteroMAdMAn, if you looked on the thread, I've posted my input using an RPTV on S97 vs. RP82 via component.

Originally posted by Lodey
Anyone here play The Two Towers or Fellowship and look closely at about a 1/2 inch above and below the black bars, in the picture - do you see any noticeable horizontal line (semi-fuzzy, about 1/10th of an inch thick [noticeable from 8-9 feet back)?? This is driving me nuts...

I have this also, seen it with 3 different players on my Optoma H77 DLP PJ.

Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
Eric
480i via HDMI is a feature that not all manufacturers have implemented (the new Sony HDMI player does as does the Pioneer DV-59AVi and two of the Arcams). If you feed digital 480i to a video processor, the chances are that you will get better deinterlacing and scaling when this signal is fed to a display. However, 480i via HDMI is not really of any use to someone without a video processor.

Didn't think of that Joe. Thanks

Originally posted by gheewala112
I have a SONY kdf-60xbr950, (a xbr grand wega)
Anyways, the native resolution of the tv is 1366 x 768. I was wondering if it was still worth it to get this dvd player and output via hdmi 720p to the tv, my only reservation is that the image would be upscaled TWICE (once by dvd player and once by the tv).

Is this a bad thing and are there any better alternatives?

I hear the upscaler in my tv is supposed to be good, is this true? and does that change anything?

I would be inclined to feed the TV 480p via HDMI, and let the TV's scaler do its thing. That way, the DVD player is doing the de-interlacing, and the TV is doing the scaling.

Two scaling operations (especially where one resolution is so close to the next) CAN'T be a good thing!

At least using HDMI at 480p will keep the signal in the digital domain and eliminate an unnecessary D-A conversion.

(This is based on engineering sense, and not on experience with these units)

Originally posted by Kenlex
At least using HDMI at 480p will keep the signal in the digital domain and eliminate an unnecessary D-A conversion.
It's very possible that the Sony converts all digital input to analog for image processing.

Originally posted by Sango
SteroMAdMAn, if you looked on the thread, I've posted my input using an RPTV on S97 vs. RP82 via component.

Yes, I just went and searched through your posts.

I will test out some settings to figure if I can get the PQ up to snuff. But, I am currently watching the Vikings/Packers game.

However, you seem to be doing a comparison using the component and 480p only while watching a video source. I'm interested in 1080i upconversion through HDMI. I'm not interested in spending $300 for a step up in deinterlacing @ 480p.

The line double/scaler in my 53x54 is just as good as the deinterlacer in my CP-72. The only difference I note between 480i/p is that the colors seem alot better while in 480p do to the HD color matrix being enabled during 480p.

I will see what further testing can do.

Hmm, interesting note. I noticed that I cannot access the HD color matrix while the S97 is @ 1080i, however while @ 480p I can. I wonder why that is?

Disapointing.

Originally posted by htwaits
It's very possible that the Sony converts all digital input to analog for image processing.

Htwaits –

So…..is Kenlex’s theory err solution flawed when it comes to what gheewala112 should do with regards to his intended application
:confused:

OK, so I figured out why I was getting all the green. My TV was setup on Vivid for the HDMI input, D'oh! I changed it to my normal setting and also set the DVD player to USER and it cleared up all the noise and the color issues I was seeing.

However, I still do not see a $300 improvement in PQ over the CP-72. I cannot honestly tell if I see any improvement really, or if I think I do. Both pictures ARE pleasing. The pictuer does seem to be smoother @ 1080i I think?

I will do some more viewings on more movies. But for me, I don't think I will be keeping this player. I'm sure for the DLP/LCD owners it is a great unit. I have 30 days to find out, but I don't think I can justify the cost for the slight if any PQ benefit.

Also, not that Paul is a liar or anything either, this unit is great. Just not for me.

SteroMAdMAn:

Correct, I'm only using component only because I don't have a HDMI on my Hitachi. Maybe I could try to purchase teh AR HDMI->DVI just for testing to see how it does first.

Sango

Sango:

Might as well. I don't know if it will make an improvement for you, but it may. like I said, it did make my picture smoother which is nice.

I also didn't notice any noticable crushing in the cinema 1/2 or Normal mode with HDMI. I had some scenes where there was white shading and it didn't seem to change. Just seemed brighter(Normal) or dimmer(cinema) depending on the setting.

I personally don't play with the settings either than keeping things at the standard settings since it looks fine to me.

I just had a second thought, I'll wait on the HDMI->DVI cable for now. Just to see if Panasonic can fix their issues first.

BTW: Did you notice any macroblocking for far as you observed?

Sango

Paul, htwaits, ANYbody -

Has anyone hooked up the Panny S97 to a display with 1080p as it's native resolution ?

If not, any theories on how to for best results ????

Not after I turned my set off of Vivid. I could see some on the DVD screen when there is no disc in the player. But again, that was while my tv was on Vivid. Since taking it off of vivid. I have not noticed any macro blocking. The New Line Cinema intro looked great as did the night forest scene with Frodo, Sam and the ring wraithes. The mpeg decoder was on par with my CP-72.

The only tweaking I did to the settings was what Paul recommended. Sharpness -1 and Brightness + 1 and set it to USER.

Otherwise, I toggled with the other settings just to see if it would crush. But I did not notice any. But, I have only watched parts of LoTR FoTR on this player since I have seen that dang movie 50+ times :(.

I find it very disapointing that the HD color matrix is not accesable while in 1080i tho. I find the color when DH matrix is on is much more pleasing. I don't understand why that is? That might have been enough improvment to keep this player.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
So…..is Kenlex’s theory err solution flawed when it comes to what gheewala112 should do with regards to his intended application
:confused:
I'm only saying that when I followed the 2003 Sony LCD RPTV sets closely I thought they converted DVI input to analog. I don't know anything about Sony's 2004 models.

There are only a few DLP and LCD models that have confirmed all digital paths from either DVI or HDMI inputs. I suppose the final result would depend on how well the set can convert to analog, process the image and then convert back to digital. :)

Thanks.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Paul, htwaits, ANYbody -

Has anyone hooked up the Panny S97 to a display with 1080p as it's native resolution ?

If not, any theories on how to for best results ????

Penton-Man,

I have no 1080p display. Both of my HD displays top out at 1080i.

Paul

Originally posted by SteroMAdMAn
I find it very disapointing that the HD color matrix is not accesable while in 1080i tho. I find the color when DH matrix is on is much more pleasing. I don't understand why that is? That might have been enough improvment to keep this player.

SteroMAdMAn,

I don't understand this statement. As best I can determine the Panasonic DVD-S97 does not introduce a SD/HD color matrix conflict if the display is locked into HD matrix at 1080i. Red, blue, green look correct. The new Sony 'NS975 can, however, have a conflict in this situation.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
SteroMAdMAn,

I don't understand this statement. As best I can determine the Panasonic DVD-S97 does not introduce a SD/HD color matrix conflict if the display is locked into HD matrix at 1080i. Red, blue, green look correct. The new Sony 'NS975 can, however, have a conflict in this situation.

Paul

Paul,

Forgive me if I don't understand you. I have read your posts about the Sony having a problem with TV's that lock into HD matrix @ 1080i. With the lack of green compaired to red or blue.

But, when I feed the TV 480p thru HDMI I can toggle between the HD and SD color matrix. When I feed my TV 1080i thru HDMI it locks into SD color matrix. I cannot turn on the HD color matrix.

Now, as far as I can tell the red, green and blue do look correct. After turning my video setting on the TV off of vivid. However I do not have DVE or Avia at this point in time, so i'm just eyeballing. I have DVE shipping to me as we speak so I will probably hold onto this player until then.

On my CP-72 I can also access the HD color matrix when @ 480p and it improves the color by quite a bit. The coloring rendering on 1080i on the S97 doesn't seem to be quite as bad as 480p on SD matrix tho. But , I still wonder if having that function would improve it?

Basically, what I was saying is that the HD matrix improved my 480p picture so much that I am disapointed to not have that option available to me @ 1080i. I figure if it helps 480p that much it would have helped 1080i also.

Matt

Matt,

Turning on the HD color matrix with a SD color matrix signal (DVDs are mastered with SD color matrix) will result (with a calibrated TV) in boosted reds and blues and depressed greens relative to white.

I believe certain players (the Panasonic and Momitsu) transform the SD matrix of the DVD to the HD matrix the "locked in HD" 1080i sets agree with.

My TV locks into HD matrix at 1080i, SD matrix at 480i and allows for HD/SD switching at 480p.

Paul

And The question Is..............

When is the S97 going to be reviewed, and added to the current shootout list!!

badabing,

Actually, it's been "reviewed" quite a bit. The FAQ section has a lot of "review type" information and comments on certain aspects of performance. They just haven't all been put into a cohesive, readable format yet -- a formal review. The shootout gives some further insight as well.

Paul

Originally posted by badabing
And The question Is..............

When is the S97 going to be reviewed, and added to the current shootout list!!

The answer is whenever Panasonic sends Kris the DVD-S97 for him to review it.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Matt,

Turning on the HD color matrix with a SD color matrix signal (DVDs are mastered with SD color matrix) will result (with a calibrated TV) in boosted reds and blues and depressed greens relative to white.

I believe certain players (the Panasonic and Momitsu) transform the SD matrix of the DVD to the HD matrix the "locked in HD" 1080i sets agree with.

My TV locks into HD matrix at 1080i, SD matrix at 480i and allows for HD/SD switching at 480p.

Paul

Hahahaha, Paul my TV IS on HD color matrix!

I must be going blind in my old age!

However, my TV looked too yellowish on faces while in 480p SD matrix and lookied nice and fleshy in HD matrix. Everything looked more natural to me, but my TV is still in its infancy with 40-50hrs of viewing on it. So it is not calibrated and won't be properly untill a few more days when DVE arrives.

But, I'm liking this player more and more. I'm currently watching Dawn of the Dead and it looks just like the movies do on HDNET. I switched it out and threw it in the CP-72 and there is quite a bit of detail lost. I quickly threw it back in the S97.

Darn, I was excited thinking I wasn't missing out on anything with my CP-72 and wasn't going to waste another $300 on a DVD player. Being as I already have 2. This one may be a keeper!

Matt

Thanks for the replies, (In regards to a 1366 x 768 pixel screen) i figure i'll just order the unit and cross my fingers.

I was scanning through the manual and it describes a feature call DRC ( Digital Reality Creation) Which is basically a line doubler but it works on every 1/60th of a frame instead of 1/30th (supposedly producing better a picture?) But this feature it says is only avaliable for 480i input.

That sucks since this unit does not output in that format by hdmi, I will compare the results in Component 480i, Hdmi 480p and 720p.

On yeah and it also says it does reverse 3:2 pulldown, maybe thats what it will do to the video singal if I input 720p, (and then rescale it using DRC?)

All this is very confusing, i could not find any reports to confirm if it is a all digital signal or not and what processes are used for what singals.

I will try to post my findings early next week as soon as i get my thanksgiving break from school :D

Originally posted by Sango
Cory:

I didn't find any difficulty reading the manual. Well I never opened it actually but did read the PDF and skimmed it. Pretty much when gotten the unit, I was going through all menus rapidly exploring where all features are located. Pretty much all done off by heart now =).
------
EricScott:

I think the multi and 2 ch. is referring to when the player is hooked analog. I can play a 5.1 disc and I can still hear other channels even thou it's set to 2. ch.

Agree. I have set the speaker setting to 2 ch. since I do not play to use it for dvd audio. that setting has nothing to do with dolby digital or dts.

Originally posted by Sango
EricScott:

I would get SaabCaptain to try out the Standard TV type too to see what's better for him.

Sango: I have a Sony XBR RPTV. Just selected Projection TV to begin with. Have not tried Standard TV? U think there is difference b/w the two?

So far I have only used this player at 480i/p using compoteny. Quite impressed with the quality. Color seems to be a lot. Will need to reduce it. Will check on HDMI tomorrow. Already setup but could not find time to do the run thru.

Mallu2u:

Yes I have... The picture is darker overall in Projection compared to Standard. Pretty much when you switch the mode, you would of already noticed it

I've also done the same doing it to a regular Direct-Tube CRT TV doing the same thing with the same results.

Sango

So u recommend using Standard, right? Also, did u also think that colors were a lot by default?

I recommend using standard. The colors are fine on default, since I didn't notice any change in them changing to the others other than noticing brightness changing changing their overall look.

AkaStp

I sure would like to get the adapter but as I said earlier in my post today I'm going to hold off on the cable and adapter until Panasonic fixes up the issues first.
-----------

Speaking of issues, I have some new pictures which I'm taken to show the macroblocking issues here (http://students.washington.edu/mattfu/MBCompare.zip).

Notice in the pictures I have MB for macroblocking and NMB for no macroblocking. Match the numbers for MB and NMB for a direct comparison of the same scene. You can see the difference between the two is switching between 480p(MB) and 480i(NMB).

Originally posted by AkaStp
[The TV type settings that you are discussing seem to only apply when component output is active w/o HDMI enabled. When HDMI is enabled, there seems to be very little, if any, change to picture when changing TV type. Similarly, Lighter/Darker. [/B]

This makes sense now. I was comparing the 480i over component with the 1080i over HDMI, but the HDMI was noticeably brighter. Basically, I'm trying to figure out if the "upscaling" on the player is worthwhile to me. My Hitachi upscales everything to 540p or 1080i. About the only real discernible advantage for the Panny so far is that subtitles are smoother looking. Of course macroblocking is a significant disadvantage and the fact that I almost never use subtitles.

Jeff

willieaspen,

Seems to be a tradition since I also have Hitachi set.
--------------------

AkaStp,

There maybe a chance that the TV setting automatically locks on to a certain mode (possibly standard) reguardless of what the TV type is set to.

Sango

Originally posted by willieaspen
This makes sense now. I was comparing the 480i over component with the 1080i over HDMI, but the HDMI was noticeably brighter. Basically, I'm trying to figure out if the "upscaling" on the player is worthwhile to me. My Hitachi upscales everything to 540p or 1080i. About the only real discernible advantage for the Panny so far is that subtitles are smoother looking. Of course macroblocking is a significant disadvantage and the fact that I almost never use subtitles.

Jeff

Jeff,

My Panny 53x54 also upscales everything to 540p. However @ 1080i thru HDMI I notice a bit of difference in overal smoothness in the picture and makes it more film like. I am noticing more image improvement with 1080i VS. CP-72 @ 480p.

The upscaling definately doesn't hurt. As you can see by Sango's post he is getting MB without HDMI->DVI connection. So I guess MB is prevalent regardless of the upconversion or not.

In short, get the adapter. There is no reason not to. Your picture isn't going to suffer.

Matt

Setreomadman:

I have the same TV that you do. I also have a Panasonic XP50 and can't decide whether this player is worth the upgrade. I actually already have the S97 (unopened), but can't decide whether I should take it out of its box. How bad is the macroblocking on the 53X54? Is this really a noticable issue? Do you think that the player provides a better overall picture than your CP-72 (this I bleive has the same Faroudja chip as my xp50)? Any thoughts would be helpful as i am considering selling the S97 to another forum member and need to make a decision quickly.

Thanks,

John

SteroMAdMAn:

Yes, that's correct. The new shots I posted, I saw signs of MB which appeared quickly. Even thou it wasn't noticable, it caught my eye at that moment so basically I replayed back, and did the pause, pause to pause search the exact frame it came in from and found it. This is when I did my comparison.

Only when going to 480i, the MB goes away because Faroudja isn't being used. You notice in the NMB pic, some pics looks like MB but it really insn't since the scene is already like that since I verified with RP82. The black scene with the two things on the corner, those scenes were taken from a frame or two just before and after a lightning flash where the MB occured.

Originally posted by nohjy
Setreomadman:

I have the same TV that you do. I also have a Panasonic XP50 and can't decide whether this player is worth the upgrade. I actually already have the S97 (unopened), but can't decide whether I should take it out of its box. How bad is the macroblocking on the 53X54? Is this really a noticable issue? Do you think that the player provides a better overall picture than your CP-72 (this I bleive has the same Faroudja chip as my xp50)? Any thoughts would be helpful as i am considering selling the S97 to another forum member.

Thanks,

John

Hey John,

Well at first I thought the PQ stunk. But, thats because all default picture settings for all inputs on the 53x54 are vivid. So if you hook it up to your HDMI input. Change your picture settings to normal or cinema depending on which setting you calibrated your TV to right away. Other than that, I only adjusted what Paul has recommended - Brightness +1, Sharpness -1. I also turned up the 3D-NR as someone said it improved the noise on a DVE test pattern.

IMO, I do think it provides a overall better picture than my CP-72. It becomes really noticable when you watch a movie on it for a good half hour and then switch back to your XP50. You will notice how much smoother and more film like the picture looks, compaired to 480p.

DVD's looks just as good @ 1080i on this thing as they do straight from HDNET Movies and HBOHD.

There is minor MB, but only on certain scenes when you critically view the DVD's for it.

Matt

Watched Shrek 2 last night... WOW... amazing picture...

Yes.

I tried the LST-3510a for a short time a few months ago. I really, really liked the OTA HD tuner. The upconverting DVD player in my view is mediocre. The deinterlacer isn't particularly good and the possibility of "green depression" exists. Video based material didn't look very good.

Kind of a shame because construction-wise, it's nicely made and nice-looking.

IMHO

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I tried the LST-3510a for a short time a few months ago. I really, really liked the OTA HD tuner. The upconverting DVD player in my view is mediocre. The deinterlacer isn't particularly good and the possibility of "green depression" exists. Video based material didn't look very good.
I had it for 3 or 4 weeks in July with similar results.

Is there any reason to believe that Panasonic or Faroudja will address the issue of macroblocking in this player through a firmware revision or other option? I am trying to decide what to do with the S97.

Thanks for any input.

Hi, Wanted to take this oppurtunity to thank all who post on the these threads and especially Paul for the valuable info you provide! I purchased the Sony 975 about a week ago and was relatively happy with its performance.Unfortunately the drawer locked closed and wouldn't open following any procedure.Yesterday I exchanged it for the 97 and feel fortunate the Sony broke!I have a Toshiba 57hx83 crt rptv.IMHO the picture from the Panny is sigificantly better as is the user interface.I was seeing strange noise like patterns on white surfaces in the background of scenes on the Sony which aren't visible on the Panny.Color does seem more accurate on the 97 as well.Kind of an odd question I have a number of CDs that are scratched and damaged in various ways and was hoping someone here could tell me if it's damaging to the DVD player to play these?It's my new pride and joy and I don't want to damage it! Thanks, Jim

Originally posted by nohjy
Is there any reason to believe that Panasonic or Faroudja will address the issue of macroblocking in this player through a firmware revision or other option? I am trying to decide what to do with the S97.

Thanks for any input.

Are you unable to open the box because of a return policy?

If not, I can see no reason why not to test it out on your TV and see what you think.

Matt

I agree John....check it out and let us know what an XP50 owner thinks about the S97. ;)

Originally posted by SteroMAdMAn
Are you unable to open the box because of a return policy?

If not, I can see no reason why not to test it out on your TV and see what you think.

Matt

I would think that it's against the law to sell a defective product !!

Originally posted by nohjy
Is there any reason to believe that Panasonic or Faroudja will address the issue of macroblocking in this player through a firmware revision or other option? I am trying to decide what to do with the S97.

Thanks for any input.

None. They already have their money.

Originally posted by tulum
Kind of an odd question I have a number of CDs that are scratched and damaged in various ways and was hoping someone here could tell me if it's damaging to the DVD player to play these?It's my new pride and joy and I don't want to damage it! Thanks, Jim

you would be more worried if the Panny can play them at all dued to the damaged surfaces. All dvd players use a laser to pickup data from the disc. It does not have a needle reading head like the old turntable that can be damaged by scratch discs.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
I agree John....check it out and let us know what an XP50 owner thinks about the S97. ;)

Hi, I'm an XP50 owner, as well as a 318 owner and I've been playing around with the S97 since Friday. I have the S97 connected to my HLP5063W through HDMI and my receiver using the coax output. I calibrated my TV and the DVD players using DVE.

I've only started getting to A/V stuff recently so I'm not sure I have all the terminology correct.

Over the weeknd I watched Finding Nemo, lots of West Wing season 3, some Master and Commander, and a lot of anime. Here's what I observed.

Macroblocking.
I'm not sure it's macroblocking, but some of the fade-in from black scenes in Master and Commander looked kinda funny on the S97. What I means is that it was kind of blocky and had a pinkish tint in the blocks. I replayed the same scenes on the XP50 and they looked fine.
I noticed a lot more macroblocking on the S97 when watching animation. There were at least two instances where I saw it last night while watching Finding Nemo. One was when during the flash when the diver took a picture of Marlin. Another was when the diver knocked his diving mask over the side of the boat and it sank in the water. As the mask sinks, the shade of the water color changes. On the S97 I could see lines where the color changed and it was blocky. I replayed the scene on the XP50 and the color change was smooth. I see it a lot in anime too. Macroblocking is very apparaent during the smoke and lights logo for Geneon DVDs, like in Last Exile and R.O.D. TV. In case you're interested, the 318 also has pretty bad macroblocking in those same instances. The XP50 has none. Even though I got the 318 a while ago, I still use my XP50 to watch anything animated.

Sharpness and Detail
I think the sharpness and detail leve on the S97 is better than the XP50. But if it is, it's not that great a difference. It's really hard for me to tell, since I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I watched an hour of West Wing on each DVD player and my general impression was that it looked best on the 318, then the S97 and then XP50.

Misc.
I notice that the auto-format to 4:3 on the S97 does a better job than manually selecting 4:3 picture size on the TV. Resizing on the TV crops a bit more than doing it from the DVD player.

I have some questions too.
I can't seem to get good blacker than black from the S97. I sent the brightness level on the S97 to +1, like it said on the first post, but I don't clearly see the blacker than black bar on the DVE reference picture until I set it to +2 or + 3. At +1, I can only barely see it. Does anybody else have this problem?

Originally posted by chairmantao

I have some questions too.
I can't seem to get good blacker than black from the S97. I sent the brightness level on the S97 to +1, like it said on the first post, but I don't clearly see the blacker than black bar on the DVE reference picture until I set it to +2 or + 3. At +1, I can only barely see it. Does anybody else have this problem?

Chairmantao (nice name) I have an HLP5063 hooked up to the s97 via HDMI and am able to get blacker than black on DVE with brightness at +1. How is your TV calibrated? I use Cinema mode and pretty much left everything at default levels (brightness is 50 I believe) except for sharpness, which I brought all the way down to zero. You can clearly see BTB at +1 on my set. Also I have contrast at -1 on the s97 and I believe it's at 90 on the Sammy. And I leave DNIe on for DVDs.

If you don't have the Sammy in Cinema mode, I'm guessing that's your problem. If you do, then not sure why we would get different results. I find +2 and +3 on the s97 makes the BTB bar extremely visible.

chairmantao:

If you have Chobits pop that in! Since I posted new pictures which show macroblocking. A few pics show the opening animation of Chobits where the lightning starts off. You'll be suprized what you'll see!! Also I have Princess Mononoke in there too.

BTW: ROD movie is better... muhahahaha j/k!! Go Agent. Paper!!

Sango

Originally posted by EricScott
Chairmantao (nice name) I have an HLP5063 hooked up to the s97 via HDMI and am able to get blacker than black on DVE with brightness at +1. How is your TV calibrated? I use Cinema mode and pretty much left everything at default levels (brightness is 50 I believe) except for sharpness, which I brought all the way down to zero. You can clearly see BTB at +1 on my set. Also I have contrast at -1 on the s97 and I believe it's at 90 on the Sammy. And I leave DNIe on for DVDs.

If you don't have the Sammy in Cinema mode, I'm guessing that's your problem. If you do, then not sure why we would get different results. I find +2 and +3 on the s97 makes the BTB bar extremely visible.

ericscott, I've replicated your settings, since we have the same setup. Here's what I have:
TV
Cinema
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 50
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
DNIe: On

DVD
720p
Color space: 4:4:4
User settings
Contrast:-1
Brightness +1
Sharpness:0
Color:0
All the rest:0

When I have it set like this I can't see any of the three bars on the contrast/brightness setup page on DVE.

Have you had your TV ISF calibrated? Would that make a difference?

Also, I popped in Dances with Wolves CE this afternoon. I notice that the on the S97 there is more background artifacts than the xp50. I don't know what to call it, but it looks splotchy. The XP50 looks smooth.

Originally posted by chairmantao
ericscott, I've replicated your settings, since we have the same setup. Here's what I have:
TV
Cinema
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 50
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
DNIe: On

DVD
720p
Color space: 4:4:4
User settings
Contrast:-1
Brightness +1
Sharpness:0
Color:0
All the rest:0

When I have it set like this I can't see any of the three bars on the contrast/brightness setup page on DVE.

Have you had your TV ISF calibrated? Would that make a difference?

Also, I popped in Dances with Wolves CE this afternoon. I notice that the on the S97 there is more background artifacts than the xp50. I don't know what to call it, but it looks splotchy. The XP50 looks smooth.

Not in front of my Tv now but I'm pretty sure those are my exact settings and I did not have my TV ISF calibrated. Unfortunately I don't really know what to tell you - our DVD settings are the same too and I can clearly see the BTB bar at +2 (brightness) - at +1, it just disappears. BTW, I use the first reference pattern in Title 12 (I believe) - forget the name - to set the brightness. I use the reverse gray ramps to set the contrast.

Have watched a few movies and haven't noticed any MB or blotchiness. I've been intentionally not killing myself to look for it, b/c once I see it, I know it will drive me crazy. Very happy with the player. Just cancelled my Samsung 941 pre-order.

An ISF calibration could make a difference.

Perhaps the Samsungs are different because the factory sub-brightness setting is different. If I was calibrating (via service menus) a set I would try to make the set measure correctly at mid-setting. 90 seems a bit high for contrast -- any white crushing occuring?

Does the DNIe introduce any black crush?

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
An ISF calibration could make a difference.

Perhaps the Samsungs are different because the factory sub-brightness setting is different. If I was calibrating (via service menus) a set I would try to make the set measure correctly at mid-setting. 90 seems a bit high for contrast -- any white crushing occuring?

Does the DNIe introduce any black crush?

Paul

For some reason you need to crank the contrast up pretty high on Samsung's to avoid white crushing. Don't think DNIe crushes blacks - affects sharpness more than anything, but I could be wrong. I leave it on pretty much all the time, except during football games - it makes the grass shimmer. I calibrated the s97 with it on. The main adjustment people make with the Samsungs is to turn sharpness down to zero - sounds crazy, but in conjunction with DNIe, tends to yield good results.

chairmantao, I spent all of 10 seconds calibrating my TV for the s97. I basically just took sharpness to zero and left things as is and made the adjustments on the player. I figured I would be there all day if I tried fiddling with both the TV and the s97 at the same time.

Only other thing I can think of and this has been debated quite a bit in this thread is the TV Type Setting. Have mine set to "Projection TV". Didn't notice any difference between the various settings but I didn't really spend much time looking. Some have suggested this setting only applies over Component and not HDMI - makes sense. But worth a shot if you are using something else.

Originally posted by gheewala112
On yeah and it also says it does reverse 3:2 pulldown, maybe thats what it will do to the video singal if I input 720p, (and then rescale it using DRC?)


I believe 3:2 pulldown compensates for the difference in frame rate between movie film and video.

John

It seems that everybody here likes the S97 better than the Denon 1910. Is this also true of the Denon 2910 (leaving price out of the equation)?

gheewala112,

Didn't know that 766p even exist? What kind of tv do you have?

Hi,

I want to thank Paul for his time and effort in evaluating and post his findings

My friend and I bougt the player, based on Paul review. He has the new Pany DLP with HDMI connector and with Paul's recommended settings, PQ is amazing.
So far I viewed "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" with him and we were both blown away.

On the other hand, I have the old Pany LCD projector PT-50LC13 with DVI connector, I connect the unit via a monster cable adaptor, and with the same settings the PQ is not as amazing as the DLP unit. The colors look too enhanced, so I use the HDMI StandardI (instead of Enhance as Paul recommended) and they look better to me. I will fine tune it, and post my findings.

It seems like the new Pany DLP has much better color rendition (better black) and overall details.

I would like to hear from anybody that has S97 connected to either of these boxes

Koop

koopalei,

Thank you very much. Although not without some flaws (nothing is perfect), I'm really enjoying this player. I can't think of a player in this price range that offers so much in configuration options, features, and (the "M" word aside) performance.

Paul

I have a sony grand wega XBR model- kdf60xbr950

Sounds like one of Sony's fake resolutions because it's not one of the resolution standards!

Originally posted by Sango
766p is not a resolution!!


sorry sango, i double checked and my TV is acutally 788p, and that is a actual resolution on some front and back projection tvs. (eg. the current sony wega xbr 60 and 70 inch rear projection)

Just do a search on avsforum website for 788p you will find many people discussing it.

Hello,

For those seeing the macroblock problem, try dropping the "Contrast" setting on the 'S97 to -1 and see if it helps a bit. Compensate with the display contrast, if desired.

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
Sounds like one of Sony's fake resolutions because it's not one of the resolution standards!

sango, then i assume you also believe that EDTV is also a "fake resolution"? lol
since it's not 480p or 720p.

and i never claimed for 788p to be a resolution STANDARD per se, but just that that is what MY tv's resolution is

Using the S97 on my Toshiba 57H83 RPTV and setting the RGB to "Enhanced" I get a lot of pixelation on darker solid colors regardless of the contrast or brightness compensations. Take off Enhanced and it goes away but I really like the lighter scenes with enhanced on. Any suggestions?

Well I picked up a S97 tonight. I have owned a RP-91 that I got on closeout for $200 about a year and a half ago. Upon hooking up the S97 to the DVI connection a somber realization popped into my head...

I currently have a Mitsubishi 55613 RPTV. As some of you may know, the current crop of Mitsus have pretty poorly calibrated color decoders out of the box. Needless to say, the red push is a huge problem with these sets.

To tame the red push, I placed a Radio Shack attenuator between my DVD player and the TV component connection. This did a really good job of giving me natual skin tones on the TV with the RP-91 connected.

Unfortunately, when I hooked the S97 up to the DVI port, I forgot that red push would again be a problem. I loved the resolution that I gained with the S97. Some people say it is hard to tell on CRT TVs, but I definately noticed a difference. I am just bummed with my red push problem. Needless to say I am running the player over component at 480p at the moment because the red push is driving me bonkers.

I have always planned to have my TV ISFed, but this may speed up the necessity to have it done. Apparently the red push can be eliminated via a IC2 fix of some sort.

I will hang on to the player until I have my set properly calibrated then put it through its paces again. Maybe in the meantime Panasonic will release a firmware update to fix the macroblocking. All in all, it looks like a solid little player...but I don't know if I will part with my RP-91 just yet.

Originally posted by BdoUK
Well I picked up a S97 tonight. I have owned a RP-91 that I got on closeout for $200 about a year and a half ago.

I would love to hear your thoughts after some play time with the S97.

Does it present as good a signal via 480i/480p, with a similar range of picture controls offered by the RP-91?

I find running the RP-91 at 480i, or 480p with some "U" adjustments to contrast (-1) high sharpness (-6) and edge detail (-2), the image is very smooth and film like.

I had been hoping, the S97 would be a RP-91 with a HMDI connection and better deinterlacer.

I look forward to your feedback once you have had some time with the player.

Bytehoven,

To tell you the truth, I would just stick with the RP-91 if you are going to stay in the 480p realm. The S97 does have slightly better deinterlacing, but if you watch mostly film material I doubt you will see much of a difference (at least on a CRT). You also have to take into account that as of right now the S97 has macroblocking and the RP-91 doesn't. One thing the S97 does have that the 91 doesn't is that it passes blacker than black over 480p.

Now if you plan to use the S97 at 720 or 1080, then yes I think it would be worth it. Until I get my red push under control I am stuck using mine over component. Good luck with your decision.

Originally posted by BdoUK
Bytehoven,

To tell you the truth, I would just stick with the RP-91 if you are going to stay in the 480p realm. The S97 does have slightly better deinterlacing, but if you watch mostly film material I doubt you will see much of a difference (at least on a CRT). You also have to take into account that as of right now the S97 has macroblocking and the RP-91 doesn't. One thing the S97 does have that the 91 doesn't is that it passes blacker than black over 480p.

Now if you plan to use the S97 at 720 or 1080, then yes I think it would be worth it. Until I get my red push under control I am stuck using mine over component. Good luck with your decision.

Thanks for the reply...

In my side by side comparison of the RP-91 480p with the sharpness and edge detail tweaks I mentioned, to the 2910 at DVI 720p... the edge went to the 2910, but it was very very close. The 2910 had the step up in clarity/resolution and smoothness you would expect, but it also had some minor Y/C errors and EE. The RP-91 Y/C is on the money and being able to tweak the edge detail and high sharpness, went a long way at reducing or eliminating EE all together. This difference is important with films like StarGate that seem to be poster child films for excessive EE.

Thanks again and I still look forward to test drive the S97, and pushing it's limits.

Originally posted by gheewala112
sango, then i assume you also believe that EDTV is also a "fake resolution"? lol
since it's not 480p or 720p.

and i never claimed for 788p to be a resolution STANDARD per se, but just that that is what MY tv's resolution is

Actually, EDTV is 480p by the standards.

SDTV = 480i / 525i (same thing)
EDTV = 480p / 525p (same thing)
HDTV = 720p / 1080i

I know Sony has a made the fake resolutions based on their DRC which is basically a line doubler since my local ISF pro told me this. Your Sony may have the 960p too.

To whom has the DVE and Avia:

Please test your display's chop rate and post your finding.
I use the hdmi-hdm 1080i 4:4:4 connect the S97 and 47wxd63 CRT RPTV.
When I test the picture chop rate w/ this two different disc, getting two total different results. W/ DVE(16:9), I got like 10% on top, 7.5% on bottom. But w/ Avia(4:3) , I got total reversed, like 7.5% on top 10% on bottom.
Is this the problem of the discs, S97 or my tv?

UPDATE:

It is caused by my TV "shift image " setting.

Geekrule,

Check both discs with another player at 1080i (or both players at 480p) and compare to the Panasonic. In that way the difference between the players can be seen. Right now the difference between the discs is seen and the effect of the television is unknown. Typically, TV sets have built in overscan.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
koopalei,

Thank you very much. Although not without some flaws (nothing is perfect), I'm really enjoying this player. I can't think of a player in this price range that offers so much in configuration options, features, and (the "M" word aside) performance.

Paul

No, THANK YOU ;)

I do have a quick question for you.

When you did your test with DVI display, which option you used:
1. HDMI cable with an HDMI-DVI adaptor
2. DVI cable with a DVI-HDMI adapter
3. HDMI-DVI cable

I used option 2 w/ Monster Cable adaptor for my Pany LCD Proj PT-50LC13, and I can't seem to have the PQ that my friend gets with his Pany DLP which has an HDMI interface. I've been playing with it all night, and I can tune to get the colors as I compare it to my old Pany RP-56, but the PQ does not have the WOW factor as my friend's Pany DLP with your recommended settings.

I will try option 1 tomorrow, and see if it makes any difference.

Option 3 is too expensive, since I already have DVI and HDMI cables
I cannot justify the extra cost, unless the adaptor is the issue.

Koop

Koop,

I used option #3 (HDMI->DVI). I would be very surprised if the cable or adapter makes any difference. Of course two different display technologies are being compared in this situation as well.

Paul

sango, do you think i should get the new sony dvd player with hdmi output? It has 480i over HDMI, my tv does have the line double built in (DRC v1)

or will the s97 be similar in quality at either 720p or 480p over hdmi?

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Koop,

I used option #3 (HDMI->DVI). I would be very surprised if the cable or adapter makes any difference. Of course two different display technologies are being compared in this situation as well.

Paul

Plus I plan to purchase either the Avia or DVE to calibrate my display.
This is long overdue :)

I see you have used both, so which one do you recommend for a newbie? Which one is easier to use? On Ebay, I notice that DVE is $10 cheaper than Avia, so I am leaning toward DVE.
Unless, Avia is better and easier to use.

Thank you for your time

Koop

Just wanted to know something about MP3-playback. Is it possible to play MP3 cds without "TV" ? I mean can you move between folders (albums) from remote? I dont want to turn on my pj every time I listen MP3s and I want change album.

Thanks!

JP Salmisto

gheewala112:

I checked the PDF specs on the Sony KDF-60XBR950 on page 9 of the PDF manual from their website and know what it supports. The spec doesn’t list its output resolution which Sony should have done, so I found it from looking at a few sources. Since this is an LCD, it automatically scales any source to 788p to match the set’s resolution of 1386 x 788. I know you erased the original post earlier today and figured out why.

Regarding the new Sony DVD player, I don't know much about it other than using the FLI-2310. Paul does have input on the first page of the thread so this question will be more suited for him.

The S97 can be similar to that of the 480p/720p over HDMI depending on how your TV handles it. From the specs, you do need to purchase a DVI adapter for the HDMI hook up.

Sango

Thanks sango

I think i will take the plunge and just keep the panasonic, hopefully i'll be able to tweak some settings on the panasonic this weekend and we'll see what happens.

I could not find anyone with this dvd player - tv combination so i'm looking forward to see if macroblocking will be as noticible on my display as people say. I hope the sony tv has some tricks up its sleeve/processing that will minimize it :D

Originally posted by Sango

HDTV = 720p / 1080i


I question myself about one resolution which could possibly be added to the HDTV catagory is 540p. The reason being (1080i / 2) = 540p. Some RPTV do this and my Hitachi is one of them by upscaling anything to the user-selectable display of 540p/1080i.

np gheewala112,

You may notice some macroblocking depending on the material you watch. I've seen some but it was almost god missed but I caught it as I replayed it back and paused at the scene where it actually happened.

I also corrected my post abit reguarding your set's resolution because it's 1386 x 788, not 1386 x 768 as originally posted since it was a typo.

Sango

Hmm. This is quite a large thread. But from what I've seen on it thus far, there isn't much solid evidence to show that this new Panny S97 has a superior PQ over the Denon 1910, and that is the player to compare to given the similar price points (I can appreciate the curiosity to compare to 2910 and 3910 but guys, c'mon, we're talking multiple times of the price here for those players!)

So Paul, since you owned a 1910 and tested it thoroughly, how would you at this point rate the PQ of the S97 to the 1910? Scale of 1-10 out of 10, and also, some comments perhaps about color handling, black/white crush if at all, and MB?

To be honest I haven't seen much MB on my 1910 at all. I have a DLP set (HD2+).

Originally posted by koopalei
Plus I plan to purchase either the Avia or DVE to calibrate my display.
This is long overdue :)

I see you have used both, so which one do you recommend for a newbie? Which one is easier to use? On Ebay, I notice that DVE is $10 cheaper than Avia, so I am leaning toward DVE.
Unless, Avia is better and easier to use.

Thank you for your time

Koop

Koop,

DVE : Less expensive, less patterns, and for some harder to use. It has more 16:9 patterns. The disc has some evaluation sequences. It might have a slightly better filter arrangement.

Avia : More expensive, more patterns, and for some easier to use. It has fewer 16:9 patterns.

I have no problems navigating around DVE, it's just a bit less intuitive to "go straight to the video patterns". Avia is more intuitive.

It's a real study in contrasts. However, neither disc is "bad", IMHO.

Paul

ndahbar,

Have a look at the FAQ section in the first post of the thread for comments on 'S97 color, black/white crush, and macroblocking.

My comments concerning the 1910 (755) are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=448618

Paul

Alright guys, yesterday, I embarked on the HDMI journey with this player. I tested the player with LOTR 3(used same with 318 and 1910) & Beautiful Mind. I found both good and bad. Here are my basic settings:

TV: Sony XBR 60'' RPTV
Mode: Vivid

DVD Player
720p (1080i looks that same to me as well. Therefore kept 720p)
Color space: RGB (No other choice for me)

User settings
Contrast: 0
Brightness +5
Sharpness: 0
Color: -3
All the rest:0

Setup Menu
TV: 16:9
HDMI: Enhanced
TV Type: Projection (for HDMI)- Not sure if this matters at all.

Connection Info: HDMI to HDMI Cable that comes with Panny player with Monster HDMI(female)-DVI(male) Adapter going into the TV.

Here are my findings:

- Component looks great on this player.
- Out of the box with HDMI, the picture is darker and shows more colors than expected (almost unreal to me). This is most annoying to me. Need help here to get the settings right.
- When I switched to HDMI, the 480p mode did not show me widescreen mode rather showed the movie in the box mode. This is VERY STRANGE. I had to manually set the TV mode to Full on the XBR. Component did not show this issue. Was correctly when I changed the mode to 720p or 1080i? Why might this be happening?
- The HDMI color space does not offer any options to be. Set at 'RGB' for me
- The HDMI standard vs Enchanced in Setup menu makes a BIG difference. Colors are much better with Enhanced view.
- Shall try MP3 and +RW tonite.
- Did not MB on some scenes. Ok with that personally for now.
- No comparison to HD at all. Does not come close. MNF was so much better. Do understand it is truly recorded in HD while DVDs are not. So there WILL be a difference. 'Garbage in, garbage out' rule.
- Have Avia but have not calibrated. Should I? Did not do that for other players as well.

Overall, I thought that PQ was pretty good. I liked it. However yery discouraged with the whole brightness and color settings thing. Need to find a solution with that. Need help from other members for setting this right. Anyone with GWIII TV and this player? Would not say that PQ was
jaw-dropping at all. Better yes, stunner no. Will keep it- undecided. So far, I think this is the best player IMO when compared 1910 and 318, due to features, price/performance ratio. PQ is better than 318 but marginally, if at all better than 1910.

Can Paul, Sango, AkaStp, CriCriCri, Rich4av, Hugh2 and others with this player notice the above issues. Any recommendations. Esp, ones that own the Sony GWIII?

Originally posted by mallu2u
Alright guys, yesterday, I embarked on the HDMI journey with this player. I tested the player with LOTR 3(used same with 318 and 1910) & Beautiful Mind. I found both good and bad. Here are my basic settings:

TV: Sony XBR 60'' RPTV
Mode: Vivid

DVD Player
720p (1080i looks that same to me as well. Therefore kept 720p)
Color space: RGB (No other choice for me)

User settings
Contrast: 0
Brightness +5
Sharpness: 0
Color: -3
All the rest:0

Setup Menu
TV: 16:9
HDMI: Enhanced
TV Type: Projection (for HDMI)- Not sure if this matters at all.

Here are my findings:

- Component looks great on this player.
- Out of the box with HDMI, the picture is darker and shows more colors than expected (almost unreal to me). This is most annoying to me. Need help here to get the settings right.
- When I switched to HDMI, the 480p mode did not show me widescreen mode rather showed the movie in the box mode. This is VERY STRANGE. I had to manually set the TV mode to Full on the XBR. Component did not show this issue. Was correctly when I changed the mode to 720p or 1080i? Why might this be happening?
- The HDMI color space does not offer any options to be. Set at 'RGB' for me
- The HDMI standard vs Enchanced in Setup menu makes a BIG difference. Colors are much better with Enhanced view.
- Shall try MP3 and +RW tonite.
- Did not MB on some scenes. Ok with that personally for now.
- No comparison to HD at all. Does not come close. MNF was so much better. Do understand it is truly recorded in HD while DVDs are not. So there WILL be a difference. 'Garbage in, garbage out' rule.
- Have Avia but have not calibrated. Should I? Did not do that for other players as well.

Overall, I thought that PQ was pretty good. I liked it. However yery discouraged with the whole brightness and color settings thing. Need to find a solution with that. Need help from other members for setting this right. Anyone with GWIII TV and this player? Would not say that PQ was
jaw-dropping at all. Better yes, stunner no. Will keep it- undecided. So far, I think this is the best player IMO when compared 1910 and 318, due to features, price/performance ratio. PQ is better than 318 but marginally, if at all better than 1910.

Can Paul, Sango, CriCriCri, Rich4av, Hugh2 and others with this player notice the above issues. Any recommendations. Esp, ones that own the Sony GWIII?


Did you use a blue filter for the color calibration? In my case (Sony 34XBR960), I had to set the color on the player to +2 for the correct setting. HUE was pefect, right on the money, so I left it at 0.

In theory, HDMI @ 4:4:4 should give you a much better color rendition than RGB, did your set accept this setting?

mallu2u,

From a previuous post of mine (with regard to Black Level Enhancement setting):

"Most HDMI players out there re-map the RGB output to PC levels when they are converted to DVI. The video output can be selected in the setup menu for either PC RGB levels or Studio RGB levels. Unless your display is set up for PC RGB levels, we always recommend using the studio RGB output which allows for below-black and above-white information. Like the DVD-5900, this selection is called black level enhancement. With the enhancement setting “ON”, you are using PC levels. With it “OFF”, you are using Studio levels. There is also an IRE setting for 7.5 or 0 in the picture setting menu for the analog outputs."

Be careful with this setting in order to maintain BTB and WTW. Otherwise you'll have crushing.


Originally posted by mallu2u
Alright guys, yesterday, I embarked on the HDMI journey with this player. I tested the player with LOTR 3(used same with 318 and 1910) & Beautiful Mind. I found both good and bad. Here are my basic settings:

TV: Sony XBR 60'' RPTV
Mode: Vivid

DVD Player
720p (1080i looks that same to me as well. Therefore kept 720p)
Color space: RGB (No other choice for me)

User settings
Contrast: 0
Brightness +5
Sharpness: 0
Color: -3
All the rest:0

Setup Menu
TV: 16:9
HDMI: Enhanced
TV Type: Projection (for HDMI)- Not sure if this matters at all.

Here are my findings:

- Component looks great on this player.
- Out of the box with HDMI, the picture is darker and shows more colors than expected (almost unreal to me). This is most annoying to me. Need help here to get the settings right.
- When I switched to HDMI, the 480p mode did not show me widescreen mode rather showed the movie in the box mode. This is VERY STRANGE. I had to manually set the TV mode to Full on the XBR. Component did not show this issue. Was correctly when I changed the mode to 720p or 1080i? Why might this be happening?
- The HDMI color space does not offer any options to be. Set at 'RGB' for me
- The HDMI standard vs Enchanced in Setup menu makes a BIG difference. Colors are much better with Enhanced view.
- Shall try MP3 and +RW tonite.
- Did not MB on some scenes. Ok with that personally for now.
- No comparison to HD at all. Does not come close. MNF was so much better. Do understand it is truly recorded in HD while DVDs are not. So there WILL be a difference. 'Garbage in, garbage out' rule.
- Have Avia but have not calibrated. Should I? Did not do that for other players as well.

Overall, I thought that PQ was pretty good. I liked it. However yery discouraged with the whole brightness and color settings thing. Need to find a solution with that. Need help from other members for setting this right. Anyone with GWIII TV and this player? Would not say that PQ was
jaw-dropping at all. Better yes, stunner no. Will keep it- undecided. So far, I think this is the best player IMO when compared 1910 and 318, due to features, price/performance ratio. PQ is better than 318 but marginally, if at all better than 1910.

Can Paul, Sango, CriCriCri, Rich4av, Hugh2 and others with this player notice the above issues. Any recommendations. Esp, ones that own the Sony GWIII?

Can anyone recommend an non mailorder/Internet source for these DVD players, specifically one in FL. Nobody local seems to carry them i.e Best Buy, Circuit City, Sound Advice, etc.

Thanks,

-Tony

Originally posted by silvertone
Did you use a blue filter for the color calibration? In my case (Sony 34XBR960), I had to set the color on the player to +2 for the correct setting. HUE was pefect, right on the money, so I left it at 0.

In theory, HDMI @ 4:4:4 should give you a much better color rendition than RGB, did your set accept this setting?

As I mentioned earlier, for HDMI color space I do not see anything but RGB. No choice given to me. Dunny why? Maybe coz my TV is RPTV? Anyone?

Originally posted by LiteUp!
mallu2u,

From a previuous post of mine (with regard to Black Level Enhancement setting):

"Most HDMI players out there re-map the RGB output to PC levels when they are converted to DVI. The video output can be selected in the setup menu for either PC RGB levels or Studio RGB levels. Unless your display is set up for PC RGB levels, we always recommend using the studio RGB output which allows for below-black and above-white information. Like the DVD-5900, this selection is called black level enhancement. With the enhancement setting “ON”, you are using PC levels. With it “OFF”, you are using Studio levels. There is also an IRE setting for 7.5 or 0 in the picture setting menu for the analog outputs."

Be careful with this setting in order to maintain BTB and WTW. Otherwise you'll have crushing.

Liteup!: I am not sure if I saw a setting where I could have selected Studio RGB vs PC RGB. If you have the player, can you please point me to that? Also with this player, I think that Black Level options are 'Lighter' or 'Darker' . Mine is set at 'Lighter', which is default.

I recently purchased the Denon1910 and still have 15 or so days to return it 'No Questions Asked'...made many of the suggestion mentioned by Paul on both the player and the display(Mits 48413) and eliminated most visable MB. PQ at 1080i is wonderful, but I do notice the jitters generally on credits and static onscreen text. I am intriqued by the S97 and how it matches up to the Denon...if all else is equal, I would consider returning the 1910 to lose the jitter problem. 480p on the Denon is OK but prefer my Sony DVP-NS725P when compared head-to-head. Any kind of direct comparison between the 1910 and S97 (as ndahbar correctly points out as an appropriate price point comparison) would be great.

Chris.

mallu2u,

Black Level should always be set to "Darker" when using progressive output in order to pass BTB.

Originally posted by mallu2u
Liteup!: I am not sure if I saw a setting where I could have selected Studio RGB vs PC RGB. If you have the player, can you please point me to that? Also with this player, I think that Black Level options are 'Lighter' or 'Darker' . Mine is set at 'Lighter', which is default.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
mallu2u,

Black Level should always be set to "Darker" when using progressive output in order to pass BTB.

Liteup!: My only concern with that setting: would it not get more darker. already I believe that the PQ looks darker and I had to bump up the brightness to +5. What do u say?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the 1910 is not even in the same hardware league as the S97. The 1910 does not have the Faroujda FL-2310 inside as the S97 does (the 1910 has the FL-2301). The S97 is more comparable to the 3910 inside (the 3910 and the 5900 use the FL-2310). I believe the 1910 also has an inferior MPEG decoder.

From the October Secrets shootout:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=120#DenonDVD-1910

"The 1910 features the Faroudja FLI-2301 de-interlacer/scaler chip. It was made specifically for DVD applications as opposed to the FLI-2310 chip found in their higher line offerings, the 3910 and 5900. That chip was actually made for implementation into display technologies. The performance aspects appear to be exactly the same, both on paper and in our tests. The 2301 chip did quite well here. The only fault we found was with material mastered with a 2-2 cadence, which is always a hit or miss with the implementation of the Faroudja chip.

The unfortunate side of implementing the FLI2301 chip is the presence of the “macroblocking” problem. This manifests itself as blotches of digital noise mainly in backgrounds. This noise is essentially an enhancement of MPEG artifacts that are already inherent in the DVD transfer, but at times grossly exaggerated. In our study of the problem, we have found that the end user’s display plays a key role in the issue. It seems that displays that have their own necessary internal scalers tend to exaggerate the problem to almost unwatchable levels. This has been most noticeable with plasma displays, with an emphasis on the popular Panasonic line. Bottom line is, be wary of coupling this player with a display that has to do its own scaling inside. I would recommend hooking up the player to a similar display, or under ideal circumstances, to your own display before purchasing. If you don’t have that option, I would make sure the store you buy from has a good return policy.

We were unable to determine what MPEG decoder the 1910 is using. The chip is mounted on the underside of a video board and inaccessible. It did do rather well with our tests though. The chip passed the main chroma tests and the Faroudja did an adequate job of masking artifacts associated with the more difficult material. The 1910 passed a below-black pluge pattern regardless of the output used, and its white level was at the high end of our acceptable standard, 102 IRE.

I was happy to see Denon finally put out a budget minded DVI player. The fact that they coupled it with a de-interlacing chip like the Faroudja almost makes the player a steal. I really hope Faroudja can come up with a fix for the macroblocking artifact issue, and until then I suggest that you demo any player using the FLI-2301 chip before committing. Otherwise this is a very nice entry offering for Denon."




Originally posted by ndahbar
Hmm. This is quite a large thread. But from what I've seen on it thus far, there isn't much solid evidence to show that this new Panny S97 has a superior PQ over the Denon 1910, and that is the player to compare to given the similar price points (I can appreciate the curiosity to compare to 2910 and 3910 but guys, c'mon, we're talking multiple times of the price here for those players!)

So Paul, since you owned a 1910 and tested it thoroughly, how would you at this point rate the PQ of the S97 to the 1910? Scale of 1-10 out of 10, and also, some comments perhaps about color handling, black/white crush if at all, and MB?

To be honest I haven't seen much MB on my 1910 at all. I have a DLP set (HD2+).

The manual even states to use the "Darker" setting when using progressive out, as the manual for the RP-82/XP-30/50 say. The player comes default to "Lighter" because it comes set default to operate in 480i mode for display compatibility reasons (as most do). In interlaced mode, this should be set to "Lighter", that's why you found it this way.

Originally posted by mallu2u
My only concern with that is: would it not get more darker. already I am complaining that the PQ looks darker and I had to bump up the brightness to +5. What do u say?

Originally posted by LiteUp!
The manual even states to use the "Darker" setting when using progressive out, as the manual for the RP-82/XP-30/50 say. The player comes default to "Lighter" because it comes set default to operate in 480i mode for display compatibility reasons (as most do). In interlaced mode, this should be set to "Lighter", that's why you found it this way.

Alright. Will do so and see what happens. What abt the RGB levels? Changing from PC to Studio. Do you know how I can do that?

I'm sorry, my bad. I was confused. You should use the "Darker" setting when using the component outputs, period (interlaced or progressive). You should only use the Lighter setting when using the S-Video or composite video outputs. So, you should still be using the "Darker" setting, since you are using component out.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
The manual even states to use the "Darker" setting when using progressive out, as the manual for the RP-82/XP-30/50 say. The player comes default to "Lighter" because it comes set default to operate in 480i mode for display compatibility reasons (as most do). In interlaced mode, this should be set to "Lighter", that's why you found it this way.

Look on page 17 of the manual, it is explained there. This is the HDMI RGB Range setting. There is a "standard" and "enhanced" setting for this.

Originally posted by mallu2u
Alright. Will do so and see what happens. What abt the RGB levels? Changing from PC to Studio. Do you know how I can do that?

mallu2u,

I'll try to help.

You have Avia. Use it. Settings mean little to me unless either Avia or DVE has been used as a reference.

Avia (and DVE) are items that equalize the playing field that can help eliminate nebulous descriptions such as "looks brighter", "looks darker", "looks less colorful", "looks less vibrant", etc. Until DVE or Avia is used as reference, every suggestion of mine (and others) would be a guess, and will probably be unsatisfactory. For example, your personal preference might be a bright, dull color picture (as compared to the Avia standard) and any suggestion of mine would be in total contrast (bad pun) to your preferences.

So, to have some confidence that we are discussing the same things, my *best* suggestion is to:

1. Use Aiva.
2. Set the DVD player controls to the settings suggested in the first post.
3. Set the TV to the picture mode that is least invasive -- typically "movie" or "cinema".
4. Set the TV controls to the center of the range.
5. Set the TV controls to adjust the picture for correct levels of black, white, color, and sharpness via the Avia patterns.
6. Make note/Report back your TV settings.
7. Watch some familiar material.
8. *Be prepared for a picture that looks quite a bit different from what you have been used to.*

The S97 player determines the color compatiblity. If only "RGB" is present then that's going to be the only choice. It isn't an indication that something is broken or needs tweaking. The only option with my Hitachi plasma is "RGB". My Panasonic LCD has RGB, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4.

Paul

Originally posted by LiteUp!
I'm sorry, my bad. I was confused. You should use the "Darker" setting when using the component outputs, period (interlaced or progressive). You should only use the Lighter setting when using the S-Video or composite video outputs. So, you should still be using the "Darker" setting, since you are using component out.

So should I be setting it to Darker, even when I am using HDMI?

Originally posted by mallu2u
So should I be setting it to Darker, even when I am using HDMI?

I don't think this setting has any impact on HDMI. I left it at its default. Most of the settings on the s97 do affect HDMI. I'm pretty sure that this setting as well as potentially the TV Type setting have no impact over HDMI.

mallu2u,

If you ever plan to use component outputs, set to "Darker". It doesn't affect HDMI.

Otherwise, leave it alone and adjust the 'S97 brightness to +1 and work from there with the TV and Avia as previously noted.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
mallu2u,

I'll try to help.

You have Avia. Use it. Settings mean little to me unless either Avia or DVE has been used as a reference.

Avia (and DVE) are items that equalize the playing field that can help eliminate nebulous descriptions such as "looks brighter", "looks darker", "looks less colorful", "looks less vibrant", etc. Until DVE or Avia is used as reference, every suggestion of mine (and others) would be a guess, and will probably be unsatisfactory. For example, your personal preference might be a bright, dull color picture (as compared to the Avia standard) and any suggestion of mine would be in total contrast (bad pun) to your preferences.

So, to have some confidence that we are discussing the same things, my *best* suggestion is to:

1. Use Aiva.
2. Set the DVD player controls to the settings suggested in the first post.
3. Set the TV to the picture mode that is least invasive -- typically "movie" or "cinema".
4. Set the TV controls to the center of the range.
5. Set the TV controls to adjust the picture for correct levels of black, white, color, and sharpness via the Avia patterns.
6. Make note/Report back your TV settings.
7. Watch some familiar material.
8. *Be prepared for a picture that looks quite a bit different from what you have been used to.*

The S97 player determines the color compatiblity. If only "RGB" is present then that's going to be the only choice. It isn't an indication that something is broken or needs tweaking. The only option with my Hitachi plasma is "RGB". My Panasonic LCD has RGB, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4.

Paul

Thanks Paul. Alright I shall give the above a shot now. I have 3 modes in my TV, Standard, Prof and Vivid. I shall use Prof to calibrate the TV using Avia and set the DVD Player to the settings you mentioned. Shall then be able to compare those settings to Vivid and see the difference. Also, what is your setting for Black Level? Also, I have never used Avia for calibrating TV. Even particular patterns that I should be using or is there a whole list of steps that the disk makes one go through? How much time should I be allocating to that? I am supposed to make the changes to TV and not the DVD Player, right, in the 'prof' mode of my TV?

Originally posted by EricScott
I don't think this setting has any impact on HDMI. I left it at its default. Most of the settings on the s97 do affect HDMI. I'm pretty sure that this setting as well as potentially the TV Type setting have no impact over HDMI.

What TV are you using with the player?

Use "Professional".

Without a doubt, the much beloved "VIVID" setting will crush black, crush white, jack up contrast, sharpness, and color, and probably set the color temperature to "cool" or blue -- all bad things, if accuracy is desired. If you're used to "VIVID" this might be a difficult first part of the road. Hopefully the change to "PROF" will be more satisfactory in the long run as you start to see subtle colors, details in shadow areas, etc. The picture will be much less "in your face".

I don't have the GWIII. The brightness setting on my Panasonic LCD is "-4".

View the Avia program that explains how to use the disc. Make notes on how each pattern is supposed to look. Then, step through the patterns on the disc and have a look and adjust. Allocate as much time as it takes to learn what to do.

As a beginning point, configure the DVD player as described in the first post. Otherwise leave the DVD player settings as default.

Make the adjustments to the TV. We don't need to be juggling too many variables at once.

Paul

Originally posted by mallu2u
What TV are you using with the player?

Samsung HLP5063 - connected via HDMI (720p and 4:4:4) for video and optical digital audio to an Onkyo TXSR600 AVR for audio.

My Samsung is in "Cinema" mode. As Paul pointed out above, if you use Vivid (or "Dynamic" as Samsung calls it) things are going to be messy and inaccurate. Unfortunately getting used to using a more accurate toned down picture setting may take some time to get used to and you may not like it at first. I use Cinema for pretty much all of the sources connected to my Samsung - including my HD DVR. Originally I was using Standard and when I tried Cinema I didn't like it at all - seemed kind of dark. However after a day or so I adjusted to it and now I love it. Every now and then I flip back to standard and can't believe that I ever watched with those settings.

Hmm!! The quotes should stop being used if it's going to fill almost like an entire page because the orignal post was like a page lol!

I agree. Page long quotes are almost always unecessary. Having too many quotes can make a thead just as unreadable as having too many disparate unreferenced replies. All it takes it just a couple of posting checks to refresh one's memory.

Back to S97 business.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Use "Professional".

Without a doubt, the much beloved "VIVID" setting will crush black, crush white, jack up contrast, sharpness, and color, and probably set the color temperature to "cool" or blue -- all bad things, if accuracy is desired. If you're used to "VIVID" this might be a difficult first part of the road. Hopefully the change to "PROF" will be more satisfactory in the long run as you start to see subtle colors, details in shadow areas, etc. The picture will be much less "in your face".

I don't have the GWIII. The brightness setting on my Panasonic LCD is "-4".

View the Avia program that explains how to use the disc. Make notes on how each pattern is supposed to look. Then, step through the patterns on the disc and have a look and adjust. Allocate as much time as it takes to learn what to do.

As a beginning point, configure the DVD player as described in the first post. Otherwise leave the DVD player settings as default.

Make the adjustments to the TV. We don't need to be juggling too many variables at once.

Paul

Thank you! Seems that it would be difficult to move away from Vivid. LOL Do like it :) But hey, who knows after calibration, I start loving the new look better. I am open to that. Thanks for the tips. How much time does the whole Avia calibration take?

mallu2u,

If one is experienced in using the Avia, a quick calibration can take only a few minutes (after about a 30 min "warm up" period). If one doesn't know how to use the patterns, the beginning education process can take longer.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
mallu2u,

If one is experienced in using the Avia, a quick calibration can take only a few minutes (after about a 30 min "warm up" period). If one doesn't know how to use the patterns, the beginning education process can take longer.

Paul

Paul, I looked for this on the first post but didn't find it. When you were using the HDMI output, was your setup for Darker or Light. I was told before that one should always use Darker with a CRT TV.

thanks

Thanks a lot Pals!

Paul: Shall educate myself first with the Avia Calibration intro. thanks.

Akastp: I have DVI input on my Sony XBR TV. Dunno why you thought I am planning to use component. Looking into HDMI/DVI as the video carrier.

And yes, stay away from Avia/DVE if you want to remain in 'blissful ignorance'. Other side of being of being a videophile exposes one to a lot more noise that one was unaware of and therefore qutie happy with! We are already on the other side and therefore keep looking to tweak stuff in order to find the HD (which is kind of a mirage with the current DVD Disks) :) If you are still inclined, you are most welcome. Its also fun I can tell u that. Makes you learn a lot as well. That is just my opinion :) My wife calls me nuts when I go on abt all this, but I love it.

Originally posted by mallu2u

- When I switched to HDMI, the 480p mode did not show me widescreen mode rather showed the movie in the box mode. This is VERY STRANGE. I had to manually set the TV mode to Full on the XBR. Component did not show this issue. Was correctly when I changed the mode to 720p or 1080i? Why might this be happening?


Any thoughts on above guys?

mallu2u,

What movie? All movies? Not all widescreen movies are anamorphically enhanced for widescreen displays.

Paul

AkaStp,

Awe....come on....you're an engineer, right? You know you should be willing to try new things and explore constantly (the key to a good programmer as well). This is the only way to learn and get to the best solution. You're not going to break anything. Have an open mind and experiment......or settle for mediocrity. ;)

Originally posted by AkaStp
I've been looking at getting Avia and DVE myself but am concerned that they will take me from "blissful ignorance" to knowing just enough to be dangerous. Or, worse, that I've "eyeballed" everything wrong. The comments from others about ending up with a radically different picture that may not be liked is a bit disconcerting. Although it suits my eyes, I'm sure my picture is all wrong but I'm not sure I want to know that.

"Blissful Ignorance" is OK, until one wants to know why something "doesn't look right". At that point one is neither blissful nor wants to remain ignorant. ;)

Paul

Just talked with TVA: they say the Samsung hd941 will be out by TG, that it was pulled back to make sure it synchronizes precisely with Samsung displays. If so, it will be exciting to get a comparison of it with the s97.

Where is everyone purchasing the S97 from? Do any B&M stores carry it yet? It looks like only OneCall and Amazon are carrying it on the internet.

John

Ultimate Electronics has it -- B & M store. The chain has West and mid-west locations.

Paul

Originally posted by millerwill
Just talked with TVA: they say the Samsung hd941 will be out by TG, that it was pulled back to make sure it synchronizes precisely with Samsung displays. If so, it will be exciting to get a comparison of it with the s97.

Very interested to hear what people have to say about the 941. That was going to be my original choice - preordered it from TVA in July. But when the Panasonic came out and I read the positive reviews I jumped on it and have been very happy (I just cancelled my 941 preorder yesterday).

I actually flipped through the 941 manual today and feature wise it seems a lot less loaded than either the Sony or the Panasonic. Hopefully Samsung managed to fix some of the major issues plaguing the 841 and 931 (black and white crush, audio issues, couldn't pillar box 4:3, etc).

When they talk about "syncing with Samsung displays" I'm guessing they are referring to this "Anynet" feature which lets you control the DVD player from an "Anynet" equipped Samsung display - currently only the new 74 series. Not sure they are talking about syncing picture quality. Although I would hope they spent a good deal of time testing the 941 on Sammy DLP displays.

I do hardware and software.....and work for a silicon company. :D

Originally posted by AkaStp
LiteUp!: Absolutely! I'm already way ahead way ahead of where I was a month ago. Becoming obsessed! Don't know if I can stop! Help! Need counseling! Btw, are you also a software engineer?

Paul: Well, everything did look right until I started hanging out with you all. ;) Now I'm not so sure anymore. Need to do more tinkering!

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
mallu2u,

What movie? All movies? Not all widescreen movies are anamorphically enhanced for widescreen displays.

Paul

LOTR 3. On component it worked fine and automatically changed the mode the WS on TV. On HDMI 480p did not set automatically..strange.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
"Blissful Ignorance" is OK, until one wants to know why something "doesn't look right". At that point one is neither blissful nor wants to remain ignorant. ;)

Paul


Paul, I looked for this on the first post but didn't find it. When you were using the HDMI output, was your setup for Darker or Light. I was told before that one should always use Darker with a CRT TV.

thanks

The FLI2301 and FLI 2310 are identical except the 2301 has analog video D/A convertors for component out; hence it is designed for DVD players. The FLI 2310 is for display devices which have no use for the D/A convertors.

Some mftrs. use the FLI 2310 in DVD players so that they can use higher grade D/A convertors. But as far as deinterlacing, scaling, and digital output use go, the chips are the same. That is why they both produce macroblocking

Hello silvertone,

I'm using the HDMI output, so the setting doesn't matter. This setting pertains to the component output. It's explained in the manual on page 16. Set to "Darker" if using component. If using composite or S-Video use "Lighter".

Note: no menion is made of HDMI.

I'll write up a short description in the first post.

Paul

Thanks Paul.

To be more correct...

Just to add, that "Darker" and "Lighter" setting only applies if you're in interlaced mode. Progressive mode locks on to "Darker" reguardless of setting.

I pretty much don't follow what the manual recommends lighter/darker on whatever video hookup simply because it will depend on your TV and what you want to do. I know my RP82 R3 version doesn't have a lighter/darker setting so the unit is only using Darker (0 IRE) in both interlaced and progressive. The same applies to my A470EN.

Sango

Just to let some of you folks know. I have Panasonic US and Canada involved looking at the macroblocking problem. I'll let you guys know what happends once they reply back to me.

For now, I hooked back my RP82 to enjoy the older FLI2200 yeh!! I notice some differnece the way the DCDi goes when it comes to scrolling scenes. The FLI2310 does a much better job of it especially when there is action during the scrolling because the eyes catch the scenes better. On the FLI2220, it's very good as well, but your eyes can't catch the scenes as well as the FLI2310.

Sango

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
ndahbar,

Have a look at the FAQ section in the first post of the thread for comments on 'S97 color, black/white crush, and macroblocking.

My comments concerning the 1910 (755) are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=448618

Paul

Kewl, thanks Paul. Dont mean to go off-topic here, but yeah, I set my 1910 to 720p output exclusively, as I see virtually no diff with 1080i, and 720 is the native of my DLP set. Interestingly, using my hi-def Dish network receiver, I definitely notice a superior picture when i set that to 1080i vs 720p. But with the Denon, no.

So yes, I concur with your findings that overall the 1910 on 720p is pretty darn sweet, especially for a sub-$300 player. Especially cuz I truly have not seen that much MB with the 1910 (and when I did, it wasn't severe). My set btw is 52 inch.

I think from what I've digested, the Panny definitely isn't worth the hassle of selling my 1910 (or shelving it) to replace it with the Panny.

So I am happy with the 1910 and I think I'm gonna hold on till probably HD-DVD players come out. Unless somebody comes out with a sub-$500 player that noticably smokes the 1910 in PQ. :D

Oh well, to be honest the geek in me was anticipating a better show from the S97 (based on what i've deduced from you guys' observations).

Sango,

Thanks for contacting Panasonic regarding the Macroblocking situation. As a RP-91 owner, I saw it go through many good firmware upgrades. Seems like they have a good track record of supporting their products once they are out on the market. Hopefully they can find a solution and give us a firmware upgrade to fix macroblocking.

Hello,

I've been poking around the settings and, in particular, the RGB/4:4:4/4:2:2 and the HDMI setup for RGB Color Range (standard/enhanced) after some discussion between LiteUp! and mallu2u today. I see a difference between the "standard" and "enhanced". "Standard" RGB seems to have the effect of brightening the image. It doesn't appear to "uncrush" black or crush white, it just seems to make the picture brighter overall as compared to "Enhanced" RGB or 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. The HDMI RGB setting only appers to affect RGB.

I think a side effect of this would be to hide/reduce the appearance of low brightness macroblocking. Perhaps it might explain why some people see MB and some people don't -- especially those who might use HDMI->DVI and only have RGB as a selection (and have configured for "standard").

Paul

Paul: When I used Enhanced, I saw better colors..dunno if that was the same in your setup as well.

Paul, do you mean that users especially HDMI >DVI users limited to RGB standard will see more or less macroblocking?

BTW thanks to you and everyone for all the information in this thread. I made the plunge and ordered the S97 from Onecall tonight!

JOhn

BdoUK:

Will see what happends. Paul and some others have contacted Panasonic so this will put the pressure on them to find out what's going to happen from this point.

Sango

Originally posted by JSchulte
Paul, do you mean that users especially HDMI >DVI users limited to RGB standard will see more or less macroblocking?

BTW thanks to you and everyone for all the information in this thread. I made the plunge and ordered the S97 from Onecall tonight!

JOhn

I have this HDMI>DVI set up, and only HDMI RGB is available. I do find that using "HDMI Standard" gives me more natural colors, and MB is much less than my friend's straight HDMI setup, I notice MB when viewing "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" (fight scene with Jade Fox and the cop)
I am waiting for my DVE disc to calibrate my Pany PT-50LC13 display.

I'll post my settings for my setup when I am done.

Paul,
You're right, I tried both <HDMI cable + DVI adaptor> and <DVI cable + HDMI adaptor> and PQ is the same. I also find that the S97 is not so forgiving in playing DVD-R, compare to my old Pany RP-56.

Also, 480P is not S97 strong features. My RP-56 480P blows it away.

Koop

Damn, I can't believe I read this entire thread in 1 night.

Has anybody used this player with a small CRT, say a 30" or 34" set. I've been debating getting this player. But, I've read conflicting things regarding the benefit with smaller CRTs. I have a Sony 30hs420 with a old pioneer using s video. Thanks,

Jason

Jason, I mentioned that I did use the unit on a Symphonic 27" CRT. Not sure if that's close enough.

I'm assuming via analog or component?

What's the deal with pricing on this player? Now the Panasonic site says "See Dealer for Price" ... then when you add to cart, the "unit price" is blank but the subtotal reads $399.

Funny you should mention that. I was at two Sound Track (Ultimate Electronics) stores last week looking at the 97S and Sony's 975V. At one store the panny was $299.95 at the other it was $389.95. The Sony was $289.95 at both. Two days later the Panny was $389.95 at both and the Sony price had not changed. Price gouging or a mistake? I am now leaning very hard toward the Sony 975V.

Paul, great thread!
I noticed that Audio hasn't been commented about in detail. Any updates?

Should I be concerned about audio/video sync problems? I noted that Pirates of the Caribbean was having some bad syncing. The characters were heard speaking their lines before seeing their mouths move. Slightly off and very noticeable. Did not notice it in Italian Job. Is it a common problem? Should I just restart and reload Pirates when this happens?? Anyone else experience it?

Also, I'm really hoping the HDMI improves the picture quality. 480p did not look too good in scenes with no closeups. Distance shots looked very raw and nasty. :( I guess I should calibrate it too with AVIA before commenting on the quality. But out of the box, I'm not impressed right now.

Lacestorm:

Sometimes the disc is already like that or the digital processing is causing the lip to sync delay. Depending on your setup, you gotta use the channel delay to compensate for it.

Sango

Well, I think I'm on the verge of taking my 97S back. While the picture is an improvement over my previous player, there are some drawbacks. The pinkish cast to B&W material is obvious over HDMI, but gone over 480i. There's MB (though it is not very bad). But, the picture improvement via scaling is just not that great. My TV already scales everything to 540p or 1080i and apparently does it well. I'm very hard pressed to discern the differences. I guess I just need to find a better interlaced player.

Jeff

Originally posted by lancestorm
Should I be concerned about audio/video sync problems?

I had an audio/video sync problem with my 50LC14 and the S97 but using the audio delay in the S97 setup took care of it. This problem was not just with the S97-LC14 combo. I've noticed it with my older Toshiba as well but had no way to compensate until now. I'm not a very good source of a lot of info. because my schedule allows me limited time with my home theater equipment but I like the S97 so far.

Originally posted by Sango
Lacestorm:

Sometimes the disc is already like that or the digital processing is causing the lip to sync delay. Depending on your setup, you gotta use the channel delay to compensate for it.

Sango

Channel delay? More like Channel Speed-up! Because the audio was coming before the lips moved and ended before the lips stopped. Is this something that I will have to mess with EVERYTIME with EVERY movie I put in? I've NEVER had any problems like this, ever. So this is making me pretty mad.

Do I have to do the audio/sync through receiver or through the player? This is just something I shouldn't have to do if other players have not had problems with this disk...

lancestorm:

You're going to have to adjust it through the reciever. Adjust through the player if hooked via analog. The only one that can ultimately fix it is the manufactuter who made the disc. Well that's only if they find that there is a problem.

You could be extreme and adjust any disc you put in and measure it to the exact ms of the delay if you wanted to compensate.

I have a bunch of discs at home especially my anime collection but haven't noticed any audio/sync issues.

Sango

I just bought a Panny from amazon (J&R electronics):
Panasonic DVD-S97S Progressive Scan DVD Player with HDMI (Silver)
$259.88 - Quantity: 1 - Usually ships within 1-2 business days
Condition: new
is this a good deal?
Santiago

Yes, J&R has been selling them for this price since day one (259.95), and they have them in stock. They were not listed on their website yet, though. You had to call them to order.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Amazon apparently just added this in the past 24 hours. Seems like a very good price, especially as it appears that Panansonic may have increased the MSRP to $399. I would say its a very good deal if they honor it.

Guys: I created a new thread regarding the issues Im having with Avia calibrating my Sony TV and this player. Did not want to change the direction of this thread. Do you have any suggestions for me: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=471113

Amazon is also using J&R to send the players.

I picked one up at Ultimate last night for MSRP of 299. They had it priced at 389, but I said that the price was wrong. The salesman (not the manager) looked it up, and gave it to me for the 299 price. It took him 15 seconds to confirm.

Not as good a deal as the J&R price, but no shipping and a return is easier if I don't like it.

After returning the Toshiba 5970, I just took delivery of the Panasonic s97s. I also have the Toshiba 52HM84. I'll connect them via the HDMI port. What are the correct TV and DVD player settings for this combination?

hi everyone

i have a question regarding upscaling. whats the deal with upscaling a dvd to for example 720p. i mean you don't add any extra information to the picture so what really does make it better to upscale then to let it be at 480p or 576p(PAL).

i have ordered the panny 700 which is a 720p projector so i understand that is has to upscale a dvd to fit its matrix, and i also understand that you may chose to let the dvd do the upscaling if it does it better(does this make any sense:p) , but generally does a upscaling to 720p look better then 480p on a 720p screen (meaning is it a noticeable difference).

THANKS IN ADVANCE (and excuse my stupid questions, i am new to all of this with upscaling dvd:s and projectors so i really don't know what to expect however i have ordered the panny 700 with the panny s97)

You guys might want to also check out this current Amazon promo: link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/548224/ref=amb_right-2_148178_4/002-3277937-5396065)

You get a $50 GC when spending $250+ on a dvd player or TV.

Zoomair. Upscaling itself isn't a big deal unless the scaler on the player is substantially better than the scaler on your display. The big advantage that I see in DVI and HDMI players is keeping the signal digital the entire way between the DVD player and a digital display like LCD, DLP, or Plasma. This noticeably increases picture detail and quality, and reduces artifacts.

i mean you don't add any extra information to the picture so what really does make it better to upscale then to let it be at 480p or 576p(PAL).

Upscaling is adding information, otherwise it'll just be a pass-through then the image will be exactly the same.

Originally posted by Sango
Upscaling is adding information, otherwise it'll just be a pass-through then the image will be exactly the same.

thanks TomMiller and Sango for the replies

ok so it does add information, but how does it do that i mean the dvd is originally for example at 420p so how does it add extra information to that picture (with information i mean extra details and stuff) so it really is a noticeable difference when upscaling to 720p or 1080i thats great because i decided on the s97 to try it out with upscaling trough hdmi.

THANKS AGAIN FOR THE QUICK REPLIES:D

TomMiller,

If people were really into scalers, one can get the Faroudja video processor with their lowest model starting from $5000 and their top of the line $12,000!!!

Sango

ZoomAir:

There is a lot of technical information which goes behind it but I don't know what they are.

This is my way of thinking about upscaling (hopefully it's about right!!). Lets say 480p upscale to 720p for example.

480 lines evenly seperated to cover the 720 lines but there will be 280 lines needed to be filled in. A complex algorithm (Faroudja's in this case), will scan the picture and determines what is to be added in the missing line and fills it in. That's pretty much it!!

The question about noticing a difference between 720p and 1080i will be determined on how the player and TV does it. In theory, 720p is better because 1080i = 540p.

Sango

Originally posted by ZoomAir
ok so it does add information, but how does it do that i mean the dvd is originally for example at 420p so how does it add extra information to that picture (with information i mean extra details and stuff) so it really is a noticeable difference when upscaling to 720p or 1080i

Well, of course it can't create "information" that isn't there in the first place. :)

I think what Sango means when he says "upscaling is adding information" is that the scaler uses the information that IS on the disk to create additional DATA (i.e., pixels) for display on your 720p or 1080i display. This is done algorithmically (i.e., by performing calculations on the existing source pixels). Details of the algorithms tend to be proprietary to the scaler manufacturers, which is why some scalers are better than others--and why each one gives a slightly different result. At its simplest, scaling involves interpolation, but there's more to it than that.

OK, I may be losing it, but I can't figure this out...

Is there any way to get the front panel to display time elapsed or time remaining? Right now I can only get it to show the chapter number.

Thanks in advance!

Yup, that's pretty much what I wanted to say Kenlex! Too much technical informatoin behind it!!

Originally posted by TonyS
OK, I may be losing it, but I can't figure this out...

Is there any way to get the front panel to display time elapsed or time remaining? Right now I can only get it to show the chapter number.

Thanks in advance!

Hit the "FL Display" button on the remote - it's towards the top left. That will switch from Title/Chapter to the selected time format (hit "Display" twice and then up or down arrow to switch between elapsed and remaining time).

Looks like you beat me to it AkaStp

Oh my bad lol!! Didn't know there is an FL select button!

I guess that's what I get for using my RP91 remote instead of the S97's remote lol!! I think I'll switch mine to the time elasped mode.

Thanks guys.

Originally posted by AkaStp
What about the exception: "It does not apply to products sold on our site by third-party merchants..."
I would guess that means it doesn't apply to the S97 as it is offered through another merchant.

Right you are! I didn't read far enough, because I wasn't planning to use this promo myself. Interestingly, it would work for the Sony DVP-NS975V, which is offered by both Crutchfield and Amazon.

Doh! Dummy me thought the FL Display button just switched between Bright, Dim and Auto. Thanks guys!

I have seen several posts regarding firmware upgrades. I realize one is not available yet. Does anybody know how Panasonic handles firmware upgrades for DVD players? Do they provide the upgrade online or do you have to go through an authorized Panasonic servicer?

Originally posted by TomMiller
I picked one up at Ultimate last night for MSRP of 299. They had it priced at 389, but I said that the price was wrong. The salesman (not the manager) looked it up, and gave it to me for the 299 price. It took him 15 seconds to confirm.

Not as good a deal as the J&R price, but no shipping and a return is easier if I don't like it.

Yes, I just talked to my UE. It was apparently an add typo. The true price is $299 although they have it still labeled for $389 on sale.

Originally posted by Phil Upton
Paul, great thread!
I noticed that Audio hasn't been commented about in detail. Any updates?

Phil,

I'm sorry with all the video discussion, the audio has been neglected. I have yet to hook up the optical outputs and have been using the two-channel HDMI direct to the display. With some *badly needed* vacation coming up, I'm hoping to be able to address and follow up some "loose ends". Maybe within three weeks the SA-XR70 will be out and I can really "test drive" the audio.

Paul.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Probably only if you choose to get it from Amazon, not Crutchfield. ;)

Actually, Amazon doesn't have any 975s in stock and lists the MSP as $349! Then they "knock" $50 off.....so it's selling for $299 when they have it!

Paul: Setting the HDMI RGB Range to Enhanced mode crushes Blacks, atleast for the RPTVs. My recommendation would be standard for this setting for all RPTV owners. More details in my Avia Calibration help thread.

mallu2u,

Thanks for the info. I'm still looking at that the effects of that control, how it affects perceived color, and the relationship to the USER settings.

The more we dig, the more we find!

"Crushing black" slightly does help reduce the appearance of macroblocking, but at a penalty of loss of shadow detail.

I've posted another response on your Avia thread concerning CONTRAST (aka White Level, or "Picture"), now that we have Brightness (Black Level) set.

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
I do believe the firmware version of the S97 is 5E160 or higher from a bit of reseraching.

Where do you get these firmware updates? Panasonic seems to not know about these and they don't even know what firmware is! Before this group, I did not know regular DVD palyers did this. I just thought it was the high-end type.

I get them from Panasonic but they only give them to technicians.

Originally posted by Kenlex
Well, of course it can't create "information" that isn't there in the first place. :)

I think what Sango means when he says "upscaling is adding information" is that the scaler uses the information that IS on the disk to create additional DATA (i.e., pixels) for display on your 720p or 1080i display. This is done algorithmically (i.e., by performing calculations on the existing source pixels). Details of the algorithms tend to be proprietary to the scaler manufacturers, which is why some scalers are better than others--and why each one gives a slightly different result. At its simplest, scaling involves interpolation, but there's more to it than that.

thanks Kenlex and Sango for your replies:D

Originally posted by Kenlex

I think what Sango means when he...

Sango is a she!

I got my Sammy HLP4663WX a few days ago and I just got my Panasonic S97 and WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE from the 5 year old Sony 480i DVD player I had hooked up to it! I have the S97 hooked via HDMI and nearly 100% of the myriad of artifacts, jagged lines, and general poor quality I saw before are gone when the S97 is set to 720P upconvert and 16:9.

All that said I am getting HDTV cable this weekend. I purchased and received DVE (and already have Avia) and will be calibrating the set before the HDTV comes. My biggest concern is that I don't know what to set the S97 to in order to use the calibration DVDs and change PQ settings on the TV! I goofed with color settings and other stuff via the DVD menu last night and they made large changes to the image displayed on the screen. If I don't know a base setting for the S97 how am I supposed to use DVE/Avia to change settings on the TV? Obviously changing the settings on the TV doesn't mean much if the DVD settings are adversly affecting the calibration.

I guess I don't know where to begin with the S97 to set it up for my DLP RPTV before I use the Avia/DVE disks. My use of the tv for what it is worth will be 50% HDTV, 25% DVD, and 25% SD.

Thanks for any help I can get for this amazing (for me at least coming from what I was) player...

Are these good as a base setting before using Avia and DVE on my DLP... I just saw post #1 had 'em, LOL!!!

"Setup->Video->TV Aspect: 16:9
Setup->Video->TV Type: LCD TV / Projector (choose your TV type)
Setup->Video->Still Mode: Frame
Setup->HDMI->RGB Range: Enhanced
Setup->Others->FL Dimmer: Dim

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Contrast 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Brightness 1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Sharpness -1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Color 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Gamma 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: Depth Enh. 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: MPEG DNR 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustiment: 3D DNR 0

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode: 1080i
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Transfer Mode: Auto1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4 (if it can be selected)

Display->Other Settings->Audio Menu-> CHANGED NOTHING

Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> 4:3 Aspect Ratio: Auto
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> Just Fit Zoom: 16:9 Standard
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu->GUI Brightness: -3"


I assume I will have to change Video Output Mode to 720p since that is the one my DLP supports but what about the other stuff?

SaabCapatain,

The "RGB Range" setting of "Enhanced" reportedly crushes black on projection sets. If that's the case, try "Standard".

Otherwise, try the settings as see how it works out. The settings are only a guide and were used when calibrating my LCD direct view via DVE/Avia.

Paul

So Paul, what would you give this unit on a scale from 1-10? 10 being best of course. I'm ready to start buying components.

Thanks Paul, it just is like which comes first, the chicken or the egg? :D

Since this DVD player has so many settings that seem to mirror TV menu options (like brightness etc.) I want to pick those from the DVD that will not effect the choices I make on the TV for calibration. A big part of the reason I want to run DVE is not only to calibrate the DVD to show great movies, but also to setup my TV for HDTV content via a cable box DVR coming this weekend. Are these settings designed to be a "neutral" point that results in good DVD and HDTV viewing?

I hope I make sense, I just hate to tweak everything in the DVD player to make the TV look good, only to find that when the TV isn't hook to the DVD player for HDTV content it looks poor.

Thanks for this INCREDIBLE thread that led me to this player which overnight has made DVDs go from unwatchably bad on my new HDTV to really stunning.

Saab,

You're welcome. I've used the early Tuesday-morning HDNet test pattern to calibrate for HD. The settings for this S97 and the TV settings agree with the HD settings so this tells me the Panasonic is delivering a signal consistent with the HD cable box.

As with any mix of components some might have a higher output level than others (Zenith comes to mind) which may result in having to tweak each input individually.

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
Sango is a she!

Ahh, the presumptions we make in these fora. Begging your pardon, miss (or ma'am, as the case may be). [followed by a broad, sweeping bow]

Sorry Paul, I found it...
I'll probably eat my words, but *just for fun*, my "Secrets" prediction: low-mid 70's for the Sony, mid 80's for the Panasonic.

Thanks,
Phil

Originally posted by SaabCaptain

I guess I don't know where to begin with the S97 to set it up for my DLP RPTV before I use the Avia/DVE disks. My use of the tv for what it is worth will be 50% HDTV, 25% DVD, and 25% SD.



Saab,

I have the HLP5063 and the S97 and had the same dilema when I got the player as to what to calibrate first. Basically what I did was to do some minor calibration on the Samsung HDMI input and then do most of the fine tuning on the s97 using DVE - the test patterns seemed more responsive to changes on the s97. Note that the Samsung lets you calibrate each input separately so you shouldn't be worried about calibrating HDMI for DVD and then having HD look bad - you calibrate the HD input (either DVI or component) separately.

For HDMI (on the Samsung) I am using the following:

- Cinema mode - this is the most important thing you can do on the HLP
- Turned Sharpness to 0; leave DNIe On
- Everything else left at default levels (Contrast - 90; Brightness 50; Color 50 - I think)

Then I tweaked the s97 and my results are actually quite similar to Paul's (in his first post):

Brightness: +1
Contrast: -1
Sharpness: 0
Color: 0
Gamma: 0
Depth Enhancer: +1 (per Hugh2's suggestions - see the first post)
MPEG DNR: 0
3D DNR: +4 (per Hugh2's suggestions - see the first post)

Video Output Mode: 720p
Transfer Mode: Auto1
HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4 (looks much better than RGB IMHO)

I am by no means an expert in this but to my eyes the picture looks pretty damn good. Very pleased with the Sammy/s97 combo so far.

Paul,

Any revision of the scores based on what you've learned about the 2 machines?

IMHO, I think the Secrets folks need to add scoring for MB and color accuracy. It seems that we are experiencing some new issues with the scaling players. For example the pinkish hue on B&W material on the 97 and the SD/HD color matrix on the Sony. MB is also present (to various degrees) in all of the Denons, the Zenith and the Panny. But none of them are penalized at all for this problem under the current scoring system.

Jeff

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
SaabCapatain,

The "RGB Range" setting of "Enhanced" reportedly crushes black on projection sets. If that's the case, try "Standard".

Otherwise, try the settings as see how it works out. The settings are only a guide and were used when calibrating my LCD direct view via DVE/Avia.

Paul

Well, I just to the HDMI Enhanced off after I put it on before fully checking out the thing. I was watching Lawrence of Arabia (non-Superbit. I hate more than one disc), once I took it off, the picture was absoluty stunning , smooth a clearer. Although my particular problem of still having some purple bands or big spots is still there. If I can find a way to get rid of that, then this DVD player will be perfect.

Originally posted by Sango
I get them from Panasonic but they only give them to technicians.

So aside from this forum, how do we know when they have a new one and the specific update features? These 'technicians' are always backed up or they take there time to get to you.

Originally posted by willieaspen
Paul,

Any revision of the scores based on what you've learned about the 2 machines?

IMHO, I think the Secrets folks need to add scoring for MB and color accuracy. It seems that we are experiencing some new issues with the scaling players. For example the pinkish hue on B&W material on the 97 and the SD/HD color matrix on the Sony. MB is also present (to various degrees) in all of the Denons, the Zenith and the Panny. But none of them are penalized at all for this problem under the current scoring system.

Jeff
Secrets admitted that they never looked at the picture of the players they were reviewing because it was deemed subjective!

Your comments concerning the widespread issues with MB and color accuracy in many of the new players now disqualifies you from further posting, as you have exceeded the intelligence threshold.:)

Originally posted by willieaspen
Paul,

I went into the THX Optimizer on Monsters Inc and ran into the same type of anomaly you reported with the menu text not aligning with the background. You have to get to the individual tests before the problems shows up.

Jeff

This problem isn't just with the S97. I have an older panny dvd player that does it with the Avia disc every time.

Originally posted by jvc
So aside from this forum, how do we know when they have a new one and the specific update features? These 'technicians' are always backed up or they take there time to get to you.

The thing is we don't don't know whe they release them, it's sort of kept quiet. The features of the update are not specified unforunately - something which would be nice.

At the time, I had a connection to one of the tech's who worked at the Panasonic Factory Service Center who talked with Engineering for me reguarding technical questions. It sort of started when I complained to them reguarding the RP82's firmware because people had different version, therefore there must of been an update!!

The connection guy then found out out is an updated disc and they sent it to me directly - funny thing is that none of the tech's had it, only me!. Unforunately the PFSC closed down so he now works in a different department and no longer able to contact Engineering.

I can still communicate with them but I have to go through CS to contact Enginerring indirectly.

Sango

Our Quality Assurance Group has been in contact with our factory who has advised that they are currently working with Faroudja to provide a firmware suitable for the Panasonic DVD-S97. - Panasonic

Progress is comming!

Stonecold - Thanks for the data point. Basically, it won't get fixed!

Sango - Thanks for the firmware efforts. The problem will still exist that the firmware will be secretly stashed away from everyone.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. They spend $$$ on an engineering staff to work out the bugs in their products and then they sit on the firmware likes it some horrible secret??? And the person who made that brilliant decision is probably making 6-figures!

Jeff

Originally posted by Kenlex
Ahh, the presumptions we make in these fora. Begging your pardon, miss (or ma'am, as the case may be). [followed by a broad, sweeping bow]

heheh!! Just the name, not the actual person lol!!

I still haven't heard (or missed) any direct comparison of the s97 to the Denon 2910. I know the 2910 is twice the cost of the s97, but it's still not so much that if it were better in any way that it might be worth it.

So, does anyone have a careful comparison of these two DVD players? Some people have reported a
'green push' in the 2910, and also some MB; are these better in the s97, or not?

Would much appreciate the benefit of your experience.

I can tell you that the reason they do not issue firmware updates out to every "joe-sixpack" is that if there is a power outage, or some other catastrophe during the firmware upgrade, the DVD player will then become a useless brick (never boot again). Panasonic would quickly begin to lose massive amounts of money supporting the replacement of DVD players that failed firmware upgrades due to some idiot messing it up. Therefore, because of this liability, they do not even support this.

Originally posted by willieaspen
Stonecold - Thanks for the data point. Basically, it won't get fixed!

Sango - Thanks for the firmware efforts. The problem will still exist that the firmware will be secretly stashed away from everyone.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. They spend $$$ on an engineering staff to work out the bugs in their products and then they sit on the firmware likes it some horrible secret??? And the person who made that brilliant decision is probably making 6-figures!

Jeff

If you read the first page of this thread, there is a summary stating that the S97 does NOT have a green push. The severity of macroblocking vs. the 2910/3910 is still out. They all do it in various operating modes, it's just that no one has quantified if one player is worse than the other so far.

Originally posted by millerwill
I still haven't heard (or missed) any direct comparison of the s97 to the Denon 2910. I know the 2910 is twice the cost of the s97, but it's still not so much that if it were better in any way that it might be worth it.

So, does anyone have a careful comparison of these two DVD players? Some people have reported a
'green push' in the 2910, and also some MB; are these better in the s97, or not?

Would much appreciate the benefit of your experience.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Panasonic would quickly begin to lose massive amounts of money supporting the replacement of DVD players that failed firmware upgrades due to some idiot messing it up. Therefore, because of this liability, they do not even support this.

Well, then how does every company that builds anything associated with a computer get away with it?

Typically, you have to agree to not hold the company liable for your use of the "firmware" and they go on ad nauseum about how you could end up in the situation you mentioned above.

But, Panasonic has a worse problem now because the firmware is out there floating around the internet and there is probably no clause built-in to it which protects them from liability because it was never intended for end-users. So, if you turn your player into a paper weight now, you could probably go back to Panasonic and get them to fix it. They failed to maintain control of their own service tool!

Besides that, the vast majority of users would not even realize that there is a firmware upgrade available for their player!

Jeff

Hi Folks,
Having not read the entire thread I will only ask if anyone knows when stores that normaly carry Panasonic products plan to carry the DVD-S97S { ie: CC & BB ).
Thanks,
Gary :cool:

Originally posted by AkaStp
Seems unlikely.

Btw, I notice now that Panasonic have now not only removed pricing information for the S97 from their web site they've also removed the ability to purchase it from them online. Ditto for the XR-70 Receiver.

Maybe it means that what they could have sold on their sites had to be given to resellers? As long as it's on the site. I hope all is well...

Jeff,

What "Secrets" chooses to create a score is their call. The players that have macroblocking have been noted and for many it's still a relatively new issue that is still being digested.

I suspect the "low gray level pink" on the Panasonic is related to the macroblock issue.

The Sony color issue isn't strictly an issue of accuracy as it is an issue of conflict. I've stated it as "accuracy" in the past (and that's incorrect) but in some cases it really reflects the end result. I think the Sony has *accurate* color but the end result via the display is only going to be accurately viewed if the TV can be configured to utilize the SD color matrix at 720p/1080i.

Paul

Hi Paul!! can you list the specific issues on my thread =)
Maybe the werid AVIA issue too?

thanks.

jvc,

Lawrence of Arabia (Superbit) is a *major* evaluation disc for me. The Superbit version was mastered under the direction of Robert Harris who helped with the now famous original restoration. The previous DVD version (with the nice book) was not mastered under his direction and Mr. Harris is unhappy with that version.

Still, "Lawrence..." is a amazing motion picture acheivement. Despite some flaws in the original negative because of the filming conditons (heat), the fine swirling sands at night, subtle textures in the color of the sand, and the sunrise are amazing tests for a DVD player.

If one hasn't seen "Lawrence", take about four hours and have a treat.

If ever a movie was ever made for the big screen, Lawrence it IT.

IMHO

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
jvc,

Lawrence of Arabia (Superbit) is a *major* evaluation disc for me. The Superbit version was mastered under the direction of Robert Harris who helped with the now famous original restoration. The previous DVD version (with the nice book) was not mastered under his direction and Mr. Harris is unhappy with that version.

Still, "Lawrence..." is a amazing motion picture acheivement. Despite some flaws in the original negative because of the filming conditons (heat), the fine swirling sands at night, subtle textures in the color of the sand, and the sunrise are amazing tests for a DVD player.

If one hasn't seen "Lawrence", take about four hours and have a treat.

If ever a movie was ever made for the big screen, Lawrence it IT.

IMHO

Paul

I had the Superbit cersion ,but sol it and got the single disc version. I liked the Superbit, but I did not like or know that it was on 2 discs. It brought back bad memories of the laserdisc.

I'll make an exception for "Lawrence" in this case! ;)

Paul

Is it possible to remove/reduce the blackbars via the upconverting
dvd players?

this might be a stupid question. but just curious.

One needs to remember that aspect ratio of true widescreen TVs is 16:9, not 2.35:1. Always expect "black bars" (which is a misleading term as these "bars" were not placed there but are actually unused space) on 2.35:1 films like "The Lord of the Rings."

As a film purist, I would not allow any zooming of 2.35:1 material to remove the unused space. :) I just have to get used to the "black bars."

Hello,

PAL update and S97 Noise Reduction update.

Yes, the S97 Zoom functions can be utilized to eliminate black bars at the expense of some picture quality.

Paul

Originally posted by iamtarun
Is it possible to remove/reduce the blackbars via the upconverting
dvd players?

this might be a stupid question. but just curious.

Uh oh... Not someone who not only hates them, but calls them black bars! I like many other wonder why people see that 'black bars.' I see a widescreen picture in all of it's cinematic glory. The reason I bought a laserdisc so many years ago was to see those 'black bars.' Th reason I like DVD (besides quality and size) are for those 'black bars.' The reason DVD was even created or successful is because of lovers of those 'black bars.' If people like me did not love those 'black bars,' DVD would not be a hit because people who see 'black bars' would have (as they did from the start) looked the other way because of price, not knowing quality (lack of advanced TV's) and not knowing what those 'black bars' are and why 'some' people don't see them. Some people get very concerned when there are not 'black bars.'

To answer your queastion - yes you can remove them. However, not only do you remove some of the picture, it would be quite surprising to me that one would buy a TV with DVI which will usually be widescreen, but not want to see widescreen films. Shocking. I can't wait for the day when all TV's will be widescreen only... Then that question should finally go away. DVD has forced many people into stepping up in the quality of their TV sets and actually get something with at least an s-video input.

Back to the original question. My TV (JVC AV-34WP84) DOES NOT allow any adjustment to the picture at 720P. It is always at widescreen on that resolution. I don't mind because that is the way I watch it anyway. Of course, you can always change it in (most) the players.

Originally posted by megamii
As a film purist, I would not allow any zooming of 2.35:1 material to remove the unused space. :) I just have to get used to the "black bars."

Unfortunately, HBO HD has resorted to zooming (or cropping) 2.35 movies (For example, Star Wars Ep 2).

I think the LOTR FOTR was also cropped on the recent HD broadcast on the WB.

Some people will never be satisfied unless it fills the screen!

FOTR was cropped.

Paul

On this black bars issue it seems that some people think that they buy their sets "by the inch"....the movie is what the movie was filmed in...anything else, zooming in or out, cropping, etc., will only distort the "real" movie. IMO :)
Santiago

Hey guys.. I need some help and am a little embarrased to ask but... how do you save your settings.. ir contrast nr etc.. for user settings.. everytime I adjust them they revert back to cinema 1 when I turn on my dvd player the next time I use it.. and when I put the user setting on.. everything is back to 0.. am I missing a save tab or something on the remote.. I am usually pretty good at this stuff. but I am stumped on this one.. also, I have a panasonic ae700 projector.. any ideas on which color setting.. rbg , rbg enhanced, 4-4-4 or 4-2-2 thanks... by the way hdmi @ 720p on this projector is absolutely stunning.. except for an occasional white flash every few hours or so.. thanks tim

rocktim:

I'm not sure but maybe the "enhanced" might have something to do with it. When you change yoru settings, they should already be saved right at that moment you went into them.

Sango

rocktim:

I haven't seen that problem with the Panasonic. My S975 remembers the USER settings and they stay that way. The *Sony* DVD-NS975 player can do what is described because, by default, it memorizes the picture settings by the disc (up to 40). That feature in the Sony can be turned off.

Paul

Originally posted by jvc
Uh oh... Not someone who not only hates them, but calls them black bars! I like many other wonder why people see that 'black bars.'

hi jvc,
thx for the explanation.

btw
i dont hate black bars

Here is my reasoning behind the question

most of the movies in showtime/cinemax HD do not have "black bars"
and they looks very nice.
that made me wonder, if during upconversion the "black bars" are removed.

But now i understand that, in HD channels they may be zooming the movies.

thx to others for their clarification as well

I have read about the pink problem over HDMi. But I have gotten the impression that it you go HDMI to DVI, as I will have to, that there is no pink problem. Is this correct?

It is encoraging that Panny is going to work w/faroudja on the MBing problem. However, Denon has suposedly been doing the same thing since the release of the DVD-5900, to no avail.

Well to be correct, they are currently working with Faroudja. How long it takes? Don't know but they'll have one when it's time.

I've also sent Panasonic other issued to be fixed while they are at it.

Originally posted by RockStrongo
Unfortunately, HBO HD has resorted to zooming (or cropping) 2.35 movies (For example, Star Wars Ep 2).

I think the LOTR FOTR was also cropped on the recent HD broadcast on the WB.

Some people will never be satisfied unless it fills the screen!

I'd say this is the least of my concerns when it comes to SHOH and HBOH. Directv should be ashamed of themselves for advertising these channels as "High Definition", the bit rates have gotten so bad that a $50 DVD player will give you a better image than any of these channels. The future doesn't look any brighter either as they continue to pile up channels on their transponders.

http://www.widemovies.com/dfwbitrate.html

Originally posted by rocktim
Hey guys.. I need some help and am a little embarrased to ask but... how do you save your settings.. ir contrast nr etc.. for user settings.. everytime I adjust them they revert back to cinema 1 when I turn on my dvd player the next time I use it.. and when I put the user setting on.. everything is back to 0.. am I missing a save tab or something on the remote.. I am usually pretty good at this stuff. but I am stumped on this one.. also, I have a panasonic ae700 projector.. any ideas on which color setting.. rbg , rbg enhanced, 4-4-4 or 4-2-2 thanks... by the way hdmi @ 720p on this projector is absolutely stunning.. except for an occasional white flash every few hours or so.. thanks tim

When you begin adjust the picture settings the s97 switches from Cinema to the User picture mode. If you then flip to Cinema, the pre-saved Cinema settings come on and if you go back to User it has the default settings. The way to save your settings is to use the AV Enhancer - it lets you save 3 sets of customized audio and video settings that you can easily flip between.

Go through the picture and audio menus and set everything the way you want it. To save all of your settings do the following:

- Hit "Display"
- Select "Other Settings"
- Select "Other" (last choice)
- Select "AV Enhancer"
- Select "Save Settings"
- Choose "User1, 2 or 3"
- Confirm your choice

You can then use the AV Enhancer button on the remote to toggle through the various modes (Off, Auto, User1, User2, User3) - just pick the one you save your settings to and you should be good to go.

Once you have the player set up the way you want it, you shouldn't really switch to Cinema anyway but in case you do this is a way to keep all of your settings.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
I have read about the pink problem over HDMi. But I have gotten the impression that it you go HDMI to DVI, as I will have to, that there is no pink problem. Is this correct?

No! I am running HDMI-DVI and the pink problem is definitely still there.

Jeff

Is there a 5 disc version of this unit? With the upconversion?

The low-level pink at low IRE levels can be a bit subtle and it depends upon:

1. The color temperature of the display.
2. The color setting.

If the display is set at cool or tends to run cool the pink might never be seen.
If the display is set at warm or tends to run warm the effect might be enhanced or just engulfed in the overall "redness".

If the display's color is "boosted" or "enhanced" then the pink will become more evident.

As compared to a 6500K light source with vertical gray steps I think my LCD color temperature is fairly good and even and the low level pink can be seen at the low IRE steps with those same vertical gray steps. Another player such as the Sony, doesn't seem to have that problem (1080i HDMI)

Paul

Phil,

No. No 5-disc changer version. At least, not yet. I'm not aware of any upconverting DVD changer.

Paul