Hello,

I have the DVD-S97S DVD player.

If you have any questions concerning this player, please ask them!

Sections:

NEWS -- S97 Firmware Thread link
REVIEW -- Full text review when written.
PICTURES -- Pictures of the DVD-S97S, test patterns, movie scene comparison, oddities.
TIPS/FAQ's/MANUAL -- Tips and special requests. Information on specific video and audio settings, Macroblock enhance tips, DVD compatibility.
EQUIPMENT -- Equipment used in evaluation.
TEST RESULTS -- Calibration DVD and operational results.
SHOOTOUT -- Comparisons / Opinions of the DVD-S97 vs. other players.


NEWS!!!!!!

Panasonic DVD-S97 firmware update is available. Link to the firmware, installation instructions, and impressions are found in the first post of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5064953#post5064953

REVIEW:

Physical:

The DVD-S97 player is slim but sturdy. It has a metal top, bottom, sides, and back panel. The front is the now-fashionable silver painted plastic. Still, the player feels solid, the buttons have secure tactile feel, and the case is rigid and not subject to flexing such as with the Denon DVD-1910. The display is florescent behind a mirrored background which is in vogue as well. While the mirrored surface "hides" the display while not is use it does make the display a little bit fuzzy while in use. The display is recessed a bit so in reading the display one must be facing the unit head on. The disc loading tray is clear, illuminated by blue LEDs. Blue, as any astronomer or photographer knows is not the best light for preserving "night eyes". Thankfully, the player can be configured to turn off the blue illumination and dim the florescent display a couple of seconds after starting disc play (a big Whew! there). Since the tray is clear and has a glossy surface, I hope it holds up over time with repeated use and doesn't become cloudy with fine scratches. The disc load/eject mechanism sounds secure and solid closing with a nice, little "thud". Player operation is fairly quiet and one hardly hears a noise during normal operation. This situation is in contrast to the Denon DVD-1910 which vibrates and can make quite a racket. The DVD-S97 has four, individual feet which are each padded. The rear connections and jacks are nothing special, but not bad either, fairly typical. 5.1 analog, coaxial, and optical outputs are present as is the highly desired HDMI connection. The power cord is polarized and is detachable.

Video:

Audio:

Remote:

The remote has a a top of silver painted plastic and a lower half of black plastic. The buttons are black-colored and rubber-like. I like this remote. It is leagues better than the DVD-XP50, in my view. The buttons have a good feel and are reasonably arranged. There a lots of buttons and Panasonic has provided for direct access to picture adjustments. The overall feel of the remote is nice and is balanced well. No illumination. No tray open/close button, either. I don't know if this is an oversight or Panasonic ran out of room. It's a curious omission. Happily, the open/close button on the DVD-XP50 remote will open and close the tray. The remote supplied with the Panasonic TC-22LH1 TV can open/close the player tray. I suspect the chances are good that many Panasonic remotes with DVD tray open/close will work. Angle of operation seemed to be fairly wide and response is pretty good. Sometimes the remote command will lag just a bit with rapid use. I didn't find it a problem. The remote takes two AA batteries and the battery door is hinged as seems to be common with many (but not all) Panasonic remotes.

PICTURES:

Note: My camera, apparently, isn't particularly good. It seems to add contrast and the color is a bit off as well. Still, these pictures may be of some use:

PLAYER

FRONT: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585691&fullpage=1
BACK: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585697&fullpage=1
TOP: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585699&fullpage=1
BOTTOM: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585701&fullpage=1
SIDE: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585704&fullpage=1

Interior Pictures courtesy of JKA/V:

FULL INTERIOR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4573612&fullpage=1
Genesis/Faroudja: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4573617&fullpage=1

REMOTE: <tbd>
HDMI CABLE: <tbd>

PATTERNS (Avia) -- FULL Aspect 4:3 pillarbox

Note: loss of resolution introduced by pillarboxing as seen at 6.75mHz. In non-Pillarbox mode the resolution returns albeit "stretched"

HDMI 1080i
Y/C: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585581&fullpage=1
Zone Plate: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585610&fullpage=1
Resolution: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585605&fullpage=1
Resolution 6.75: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585617&fullpage=1
Pixel Cropping: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585626&fullpage=1

HDMI 480p
Y/C: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585629&fullpage=1
Zone Plate: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585585&fullpage=1
Resolution: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585637&fullpage=1
Resolution 6.75: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585639&fullpage=1

COMPONENT 480p
Y/C: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585642&fullpage=1
Zone Plate: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585647&fullpage=1
Resolution: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585651&fullpage=1
Resolution 6.75: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585652&fullpage=1

COMPONENT 480i
Y/C: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585659&fullpage=1
Zone Plate: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585663&fullpage=1
Resolution: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585666&fullpage=1
Resolution 6.75: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585670&fullpage=1

PATTERNS (DVE) -- FULL Aspect 16:9

HDMI 1080i
Snell & Wilcox: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587448&fullpage=1
6.50 & 6.75 mHz: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587452&fullpage=1


HDMI 480p
Snell & Wilcox: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587458&fullpage=1
6.50 & 6.75 mHz: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587462&fullpage=1

Component 480p
Snell & Wilcox: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587465&fullpage=1
6.50 & 6.75 mHz: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587469&fullpage=1

Component 480i
Snell & Wilcox: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587470&fullpage=1
6.50 & 6.75 mHz: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4587472&fullpage=1

PATTERNS (DVE) -- FULL Aspect 4:3 pillarbox

HDMI 1080i
ICP: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4609140&fullpage=1

Component 480i
ICP: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4609144&fullpage=1

SCREEN SHOTS (from "Willy Wonka and Chocolate Factory"):
HDMI 1080i: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585675&fullpage=1
HDMI 480p: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585680&fullpage=1
Component 480p: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585682&fullpage=1
Component 480i: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585685&fullpage=1

MISCELLANEOUS

Macroblock enhance (aka "macroblocking") (Brightness enhanced photo): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585688&fullpage=1
HDMI@1080i This picture is from "Ben Hur" - it is taken right before the famous MGM lion appears. Look closely and one can see the circular area around the lion just beginning to form. The TV's brightness was enhanced so that the blocks could be captured by the camera. Look closely and the top and bottom black bars of the letterboxing can be seen. The overly blue look to the picture is added by the camera -- it is NOT that blue! Ideally, this background should be almost smooth with only a hint of grain. Although enhanced in this picture, one can see the blocks in my system under normal conditions, if one looks carefully and quickly.

Menu Anomaly: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4585690&fullpage=1
HDMI@1080i I have only seen this problem with the "deep" Avia menus. I have looked on other 4:3 discs for this problem. The problem has also been sighted on the "THX Optimizer" included with "Monster's Inc.".

TIPS / FAQ's / MANUAL:

OWNER'S MANUAL .PDF

The owner's manual is located here:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DVDS97.PDF

INITIAL SETTINGS:

My settings. Just a "quick quide"

Setup->Video->TV Aspect: 16:9
Setup->Video->TV Type: LCD TV / Projector (choose your TV type -- see TV TYPE SETTING section below)
Setup->Video->Still Mode: Frame
Setup->HDMI->RGB Range: Enhanced
Setup->Others->FL Dimmer: Dim

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Contrast 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Brightness 1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Sharpness -1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Color 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Gamma 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: Depth Enh. 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: MPEG DNR 0
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Picture Mode-> User->Picture Adjustment: 3D DNR 0

Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Video Output Mode: 1080i
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->Transfer Mode: Auto1
Display->Other Settings->Picture Menu->HDMI Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4 (if it can be selected)

Display->Other Settings->Audio Menu-> CHANGED NOTHING

Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> 4:3 Aspect Ratio: Auto
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu-> Just Fit Zoom: 16:9 Standard
Display->Other Settings->Display Menu->GUI Brightness: -3

BLACK LEVEL CONTROL

There has been some discussion concerning the setting of the:

Setup->Video->Black Level Control

If using the HDMI output, the setting doesn't matter. This setting pertains to the component output. The usage is explained in the manual on page 16. Set to "Darker" if using component. If using composite or S-Video use the default of "Lighter". Note that there is no mention of HDMI. The setting does not pertain to HDMI.

NO SOUND

Try setting "A/V Enhance" to "Off" (front panel button).

HDMI COLOR SPACE

4:4:4, 4:2:2, RGB which to choose?

There is no "right", "wrong", or "should" with the setting. The Panasonic is going to allow for whatever setting is allowed for by the display.

First digit is luminance: Y.
Second digit R-Y. (Red)
Third digit B-Y. (Blue)

4:4:4 Color information is sampled at the same rate as luminance.
4:2:2 Color information is sampled at half the rate as the luminance.

4:4:4 would provide more color information, in theory, it should be better. 4:4:4 is great for HD.

For a thorough explanation, try here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4:2:2

With certain HDMI connections -- all three may be allowed. With a DVI connection only RGB will be allowed -- that's what DVI supports. If your connection allows for 4:4:4 then give it try, however given the color depth of present day DVD, it's probably overkill.

DISPLAY FIRMWARE VERSION #: (thanks Sango)

Press and hold on the player the buttons "PAUSE" + "OPEN" and press the "7" button on the remote. The full version will be displayed on the florescent read out and the last 3 numbers on the right is the version number.

DISCRETE ON/OFF CODES (thanks to dm71):
http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/files/rcfiles.cgi?area=prontong&db=discrete&br=panasonic&dv=dvdplayer&fc=

DVD-S97 MACROBLOCK SURVIVAL GUIDE:

"Macroblocking" (accurately, "macroblock enhance") has become a hot topic these days with the introduction of the Sage/Faroudja FLI23xx solution. To some degree or other players with this chip family seem to exhibit the issue.

What does "macroblocking" mean to the viewer? Black backgrounds may not look entirely black. The backgrounds might look "busy". Black and white programming may have an occasional, small, subtle, momentary introduction of a shade of color on a particular, small portion of the screen. Large areas of solid beige, light brown, "earthtones" may have small areas of momentary, subtle emphasis of color. Thankfully, in the vast majority of material the issue isn't visible or the occurance so quick as to be unnoticed.

What can be done? The best thing to be done is critical adjustment of the display and DVD player. A lot of the macroblock enhance activity is noted in dim scenes with low level brightness and color or bright scenes with low level color. The key is "low level". Adjustments that can emphasize "low level" picture characteristics will emphasize macroblock enhance.

My best suggestions:

Get Digital Video Essentials (DVE), if one does not have it.

Brightness and Contrast: Adjust critically. Avoid the temptation to "give it a little boost". Boosting the brightness will emphasize dim scene macroblock enhance.

Color: Adjust critically. Avoid the temptation to "add a little zip". Boosting the color will emphasize low color level macroblock enhance -- especially in Black and White material and large areas of beige and light brown scenes (such as the desert sands in Lawrence of Arabia).

Dynamic picture "enhancements". This is tricky. The enhancements typically tend to emphasize color and contrast which normally encourages the presence of macroblock enhance, however the enhancements also tend to reduce brightness in dim scenes and introduce some "black crush" which can help reduce the appearance of macroblock enhance Best bet: try it/remove it and see.

Try 480p. The possible benefits of upconversion may be lost but Faroudja processiong is still functional at 480p and one *may* see fewer or less enhanced blocks or oddly colored tints.

Suggestions that come with a penalty:

Introduce a bit of "black crush" at the display. While removing some low level detail and shading it can also hide dim scene macroblock enhance.

Reduce color. While it removes a little of the color it also reduces the emphasis place on low level color blocks. In truly Black and White material, reducing the color to minimum (at the display) can remove the low level color macroblock enhance.

Introduce some MPEG NR on the 'S97. While it can smear some fine detail, it tends to smooth out the macroblocks making the occurrence less noticeable.

Reduce the Contrast on the 'S97 to -1. While it can take away a bit of the vibrancy of the picture, it seems to minimize a bit of the occurrence of enhnaced macroblocks.

GUIDE TO S97 NOISE REDUCTION: (thanks to Hugh2)

Depth Enhancer, MPEG DNR, 3D-NR

I've spent some time with each of the above noise reducer options and would like to share my thoughts. First off I'll say that yes all three of these noise reducers do work and all in slightly different manner. I know little of the algorithms and processing of how these filters work so I'll just offer my viewing observations.

Depth Enhancer

Effect is subtle but evident on a number of disks I've looked at at full player zoom plus full Iscan zoom. The filter averages dark and light areas in a random manner smoothing the image subtly on both the horizontal and vertical plain equally. This filter does not discriminate noise artifacts from non therefore smooths the entire image equally on all plains. Except for the smoothing effect this filter has no obvious artifacts. This filter seems to work more precisely on a more pixel by pixel basis and is far more subtle than the MPEG DNR.

MPEG DNR

This filter has the most obvious most intrusive effect of the three. It appears to work by smoothing much larger blocks of the image than the others but surprisingly smooths the image by smoothing pixels biased on the vertical axis. On setting one I can see the vertical streaking beginning to appear as the filter begins to squeeze out the contrasting elements of the image. The untouched lightly colored areas become thinner therefore also appear taller which gives the overall effect of light colored vertical streaking artifacts similar to what you see in scratched moving film but much finer obviously. At the highest position most evidence of the streaking is gone as the smoothing oils merge and become one. This filter does not discriminate and affects the entire image.

3D-NR

This filter is quite interesting and is completely different from the other two. It has no affect on a static image or parts of the image free of visible noise. Therefore when either the image is paused or when no noise is present the filter does nothing, to use a military term it works like a smart bomb with little collateral damage. The filter attacks only the quick moving noise artifacts of the image and instead of the usual smoothing method of concealment this NR instead somehow slows down the quick movement to a relative crawl and in some cases to a stand still (sort of like digital molasses filter). I've noticed the NR does not work with all types of noise where on some noisy images it's effect was obvious while seemingly similar conditions in other images no effect was noticed. This filter has no negative smoothing/blurring streaking artifacts I could perceive and can be cranked up without worry. Overall this filter is very impressive though subtle.

Edit: After a few more days of using the 3D-NR filter I have noticed during certain scenes it does have an obvious artifact. I've only witnessed this artifact on human skin during slow or fast movement but it must be present elsewhere as well. The artifact is a quasi double image which appears in sections where there is obvious color changes such as blushed cheek bones for instance. When the subject moves one image legs behind by slightly but is pulled along like it's attached by an elastic.

Using 3D-NR and Depth Enhancer in tandem has a synergistic but subtle effect and works pretty well at removing minor noise and except for the double image artifact at times there is only minor loss of image quality. Setting Depth Enhancer on 1 (2, 3, and 4 have little additional benefit) and 3D-NR on 1 or 2 (not cranked as previously thought) should be suitable for most conditions but YMMV.

Since all images have a certain amount of noise I feel comfortable turning on these two filters and just leave it. If further NR is required then simply using the MPEG DNR at setting 1 or 2 should suffice, but I would avoid using this filter unless necessary.

TV TYPE SETTING:(thanks Hugh2)

The TV Type setting has no effect if one is using the S97 manual "USER" settings. If the USER settings are not employed then the following applies:

I just finished some additional testing using grey ramps and brightness pluge patterns the results surprised me a little. I'm using an X1 PJ and "TV Type" is set to LCD/Projector.

For testing contrast I set the level just where the two whitest bars begin to become one color but left it so I could barely see the lower bar. My contrast setting is 50 when adjusted like this. I then flipped through the tv types and then readjusted the contrast to maintain the same level of brightness on the ramps IE: the upper two bars just beginning to crush. I similarly tested for brightness using the pluge test pattern I had to re-adjust to the following contrast and brightness settings to achieve the same reference levels:

....................... Contrast................ Brightness
Standard/Direct. 56.............................47
CRT..................56.............................47
LCD/Projector.....50 (reference).............48
Projection......... 66.............................42
Plasma............. 50.............................48

As you can see there are varying contrast and brightness levels among the TV types. The projection setting offers the most significant level changes offering what I consider significantly less contrast and an elevated black level when compared to any of the other. As one might expect the LCD/Projector attempt to give the impression of a brighter picture in comparison with the other settings with a slighter darker black level using this setting.

If you have a setup dvd it goes without saying (but I will anyway) the all the levels of contrast and brightness in the above settings can be adjusted out by using the control of the pj.

I also checked for color changes and didn't perceive any, though I did not check for sharpness or gamma changes.

DVD DISC COMPATIBILITY:

DVD-R: Yes, confirmed
DVD-RW: Yes, confirmed
DVD+R: Yes (according to Radsman)
DVD+RW: Yes, confirmed
DVD-VR: Yes, confirmed
PAL: Yes, if region free (according to Rich4av). Ensure the display is capable of accepting 50Hz.

DVD Disc compatibility can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

EQUIPMENT:

Display: Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD HDMI 1280x720 @ 1080i & 480p & 480i
Hitachi 32HDT55 Plasma DVI @ 1080i & 720p & 480p

Cable: HDMI-HDMI supplied with DVD-S97S, Monster HDMI->DVI cable

DVDs: DVE, Avia, various movies, animation

TEST RESULTS:

OPERATION:

Upconversion: HDMI only. HDCP only.

Upconversion via component video: No

Change picture settings via HDMI: Yes

Layer Change: Noticeable, .5 sec or thereabouts

Remember last played position of ejected disc: Yes. Via "Position/Memory". There are five memories. When the "memorized" disc is reinserted into the machine, a message will appear on the screen to press "PLAY". Pressing "PLAY" will resume play at the location where the memory button was pressed.

Blue light: The tray illuminating blue light will extinguish a couple of seconds after play begins and FL display dim when configured for AUTO. DIM will extinguish the blue light except when the tray is opened and closed. with the DIM setting the tray is also illuminated less with the blue.

Zoom: Yes. Auto screen-filling, anamorphic zoom. Virtually continuously variable. While the zoom feature is extremely flexible, the picture quality suffers even with the minimum of zoom, introducing jagged lines and reducing sharpness. If a problem with the picture quality is seen, check the zoom settings and ensure that it is not enabled.

Simultaneous HDMI and Component output: Yes. If HDMI is enabled, component output is still active with 480i. Cannot determine if 480p via component in this situation can be configured.

HDMI
HDMI->HDMI 1080i,480p / HDMI->DVI 1080i, 720p, 480p:

Differences between the modes/resolution noted in red. Avia in "pillarbox" mode.


Deinterlacing Processor: Genesis/Faroudja FLI2310LF

MPEG Decoder: <tbd>

Macroblock enhance: present, visible - this condition may vary from display to display and from DVD to DVD but I see it.

Chroma Upsampling Error (CUE): No

Low IRE gray/pink: It is noted that HDMI->HDMI seems to introduce a slight "pinkish" cast to gray. It can be seen with 10IRE field on Avia disc.

BTB or crushing: Passes blacker than black, if "USER" setting brightness set to "+1". No crushing noted with HDMI--> DVI connection.

WTW or crushing: Passes all white steps, no crushing. This is true *only* if one uses the "User" picture settings and does not set the contrast higher or the "Cinema1" setting. Other settings, including, "Normal", can crush white.

Color accuracy via 720p/1080i (green depression): Appears accurate, no "green depression" noted. The player appears to transform the SD color matrix to the HD color matrix for the upconversion.

480i via HDMI: Not Available, cannot configure

4:3 Pillarboxng: Yes. Will automatically pillarbox 4:3 material via HDMI at 1080i, 720p, 480p, if configured to AUTO. No additional button presses, down resolution, or other configuration needed. Loss of resolution does result when "pillarboxing" is utilized (see 6.75Mhz Avia resolution photos). Anomaly noted: in the Avia menus (and only seen in the Avia *menus*) the background screen was set at 4:3 but the menu selections were stretched 16:9 and resulted in a double/overlapped image. Weird. Otherwise, 4:3 pillarbox looked good on other DVDs.

Non-Anamorphic DVD zoom: Yes. Screen ratios can be selected: Cinemascope, Vista, etc. It does zoom to fill the screen. There is a noticeable drop in picture quality, however.

Frequency Response (DVE):
1080i - Looked good, no edge enhancement noted
720p - Looked good, but might be some enhancement
480p - Looked enhanced the high frequencies looked "etched"

Avia 4:3 Pillarbox Pixel cropping: Left and Right sides -- none. Top and Bottom -- a few but it may be my display.

DVE 16:9 Cropping: Left and Right sides -- a few. Top and Bottom -- a few.
HDMI 1080i seems to have the fewer pixels cropped.

Avia Y/C delay: Blue, Green OK, +0.07 for Red For the Hitachi @ 720p, the red may have been a bit better, closer to +0.00

Avia Moving Zone Plate: mediocre, IMHO, the finer lines turned to mush with either rate.

DVE Motion Pattern: looked pretty good, motion adaptive

Subtitle synchronization: Very good.

COMPONENT
480p, 480i

Differences between the modes/resolution noted in red. Avia in "pillarbox" mode.

Deinterlacing Processor: <tbd> (might be using the Faroudja. Regardless deinterlacing look pretty good)

MPEG Decoder: <tbd>

Macroblocking: present, visible - this condition may vary from display to display and from DVD to DVD but I see it. At 480i, the macroblocking seems to be non-existant.

Chroma Upsampling Error (CUE): No

Low IRE gray/pink: None noticed.

BTB or crushing: Passes blacker than black if Setup is conigured to pass "Enhanced" black.

WTW or crushing: Passes all white steps, no crushing. This is true *only* if one uses the "User" picture settings and does not set the contrast higher or the "Cinema1" setting. Other settings, including, "Normal", will crush white.

Color accuracy (green depression): Appears accurate, no green depression noted.

4:3 Pillarboxng: Yes. Will automatically pillarbox 4:3 material, if configured to AUTO. No additional button presses, down resolution, or other configuration needed. Loss of resolution does result when "pillarboxing" is utilized (see 6.75Mhz Avia resolution photos). Anomaly noted: in the Avia menus (and only seen in the Avia *menus*) the background screen was set at 4:3 but the menu selections were stretched 16:9 and resulted in a double/overlapped image. Weird. Otherwise, 4:3 pillarbox looked good on other DVDs.

Non-Anamorphic DVD zoom: Yes. Screen ratios can be selected: Cinemascope, Vista, etc. It does zoom to fill the screen. There is a noticeable drop in picture quality, however.

Frequency Response (DVE):
480p - Looked enhanced the high frequencies looked "etched"
480i - Might be slightly rolled off and less "etched" looking

Avia 4:3 Pillarbox Pixel cropping: Left and Right sides -- none. Top and Bottom -- a few but it may be my display.

DVE 16:9 Pixel cropping: Left and Right sides -- a few. Top and Bottom - a few. Component seems to have just a few more pixels cropped than HDMI.

Avia Y/C delay:
480p : Blue, Green OK, +0.07 for Red
480i : looked near perfect

Avia Moving Zone Plate: mediocre, IMHO, turned to mush with either rate

DVE Motion Pattern: 480p : looked pretty good, motion adaptive

Subtitle synchronization: Very good.

AUDIO:

HDMI passes two channel: Yes, confirmed

DVD-Audio multichannel via HDMI: <tbd>

Audio/video delay/sync: No problem noted, but it can be configured. It must be configured in the main setup which requires stopping the player which results in no picture or sound. So, one must guess at a setting and then try it out. If not sync'ed, stop the player, try another setting. Not ideal to be sure, but better than nothing.

FIRMWARE:

Original firmware version: 85E528
1st revised firmware version: 85E536
2nd revised firmware version: 85E540
3rd revised firmware version: 85E541

Beginning with April 2005 manufacture, firmware version: 86H360
This version would indicate a hardware change. It is not known what that hardware change might be.

Early report is that the revised firmware versions significantly reduces the macroblock enhance issue.

HARDWARE:

HDMI cable: Yes, HDMI-HDMI 6ft. cable included

Composite, L/R audio cable: Yes, included

Remote: Yes
a. Open/close tray: No. BUT DVD-XP50 remote can open/close tray
b. Directly access screen adjustments: Yes
c. Control other devices: Yes, TV
d. Illuminated/Glow: No

Batteries: Yes, AA

Power cord: Yes, detachable, USA polarized type.

SHOOTOUT:

My opinions. Not always scientific. They are what they are.

vs. Momitsu V880

Picture: Panasonic. One way to describe the picture difference is to set the Panasonic's MPEG NR to its maximum setting. Notice the slight blurring and loss of fine detail. To me this is one way how the Momitsu looks -- as if there is some fixed, continous noise reduction. Set the Panasonic MPEG NR back to off and enjoy the finer detail. At 1080i the Momitsu distorts subtitles slightly and introduces a bit of jitter with subtitles. The Panasonic exhibits none of that. The Panasonic's deinterlacer is superior as well. Details missing on the Momitsu with fine pinstripes and lines reappear on the Panasonic giving that extra edge in believability. Pluses for the Momitsu is a lack of "macroblocking", a superior "Zoom" function, and somewhat more detail when 4:3 pillarboxing is enabled. Both players have excellent color and frequency response (via DVI or HDMI) and neither have the "green depression", or crush black or white.

Operation-wise: Panasonic. The Panasonic has it all over the Momitsu. Menu operation is quick and reliable. The Momitsu always seems to lag or give the appearance of jumping ahead when navigating menus. The professional-looking GUI is a refreshing change from the Momitu's crude GUI.

Features/adjustments: Panasonic. But there's a "depends" as would be the case with any feature set. The Panasonic is *loaded* -- download the manual and see. If one doesn't fear the flexibility offered by the Panasonic, it will reward with lots of configuration opportunities. However, the Momitsu does have some *major* points in its favor: Defeatable HDCP, upconversion via component, defeatable Macrovision, selectable region, DVI configuration -- any of which could make the Momitsu an essential purchase.

Construction: I think both players are pretty solid. Given the construction of low-cost DVD players these days both of these players should be considered modern-day sub-$500 "tanks". Both of the players are sturdy and are not easily flexed. Both are all metal except for the front panel. The Momisu does have gold plated RCA jacks.

Remote: Panasonic. Panasonic easily wins here. While the Momitsu does have the advantage of a tray open/close button, the Panasonic is superior in every other way I can think of.

vs. Sony DVP-NS975V

Picture: Leaning towards Panasonic. In my case, the major showdown is between macroblocking and color matrix decoding.

Macroblock enhance. For the 'S97 the macroblock enhance is present, no doubt. If the display is carefully adjusted and one doesn't look for the macroblocking it might never be noticed. I have to look for it in scenes and situations that I think it is going to appear, and it does sometimes appear. Overall though, it doesn't distract me from enjoying the movie. It is understood that some people do not tolerate macroblocking. In carefully looking at the macroblocking with the same scenes, one can see that both DVD players are having issues with the same patches of material that will show the macroblocking. The Sony handles it much more gracefully.

Color Matrix Decoding. Depends. For '975V the issue depends upon one's display. Some TVs do not allow for the selection of the SD color matrix at 1080i/720p. NTSC (SD) and ATSC (HD) process color in a different way -- not radically different but somewhat different. DVDs are encoded for SD matrix. The DVD player converts the 480i signal to 1080i. So far, so good. However, in the case of the Sony, the SD color matrix of the DVD is not converted to the HD matrix. In viewing on a display fixed at HD color matrix only at 1080i, the differences between matrices with red and blue are slight. With green, however, the difference is significant. Sending an SD color matrix to a display that is expecting an HD color matrix results in a significant reduction of the color green -- the "green depression" (and some boost to red and blue). If the display cannot change the matrix at 1080i there isn't much that can done. The display could have the color decoders recalibrated to compensate but that might come at the expense of color fidelity with true HD material. The display's color can be boosted to bring up the green but the red and blue become unreal and the color imbalance still exists. Adjusting the "Tint" -2 on the '975V holds some promise with "non-critical" viewing.

What does this "green depression" mean to the average viewer with a TV with a fixed HD color matrix? In viewing the material at 480p and switching between the matrices, one can see the major difference is in the rendition of facial tones. EVERYONE has a slightly "yellowish" or "jaundiced" look when viewing HD/480p. Most people might not notice but the inaccuracy is there. Switching back to HD/1080i confirms what is seen at HD/480p. I can live with the "jaundiced" look as well but, in my view, it's more "in your face" than macroblocking (pun intended). The Panasonic has glorious color. No complaints at all -- color transitions, color strobing, facial tones all look realistic.

If the TV allows for selection of HD/SD color matrix at 1080i, then great! Sony color conflict solved. But with some displays the choice isn't available.

Both players present enormous amounts of detail. The Sony has slight etching noted while the Panasonic has a smoother presentation of the detail.

Movement. I think the Panasonic, overall, handles movement better. Pans seem smoother. Every so often I see a bit of combing on the Sony.

I haven't fully decided but, in my case, I'm leaning towards the Panasonic. In my situation the macroblocking is easier to ignore than the jaundice. However, if one's display allows for HD/SD matrix selection at 1080i/720p the Sony might get the nod for overall "average viewing" PQ.

Operation-wise: Panasonic. The Panasonic seems more secure in disk handling. The Pansonic loads the disc quicker than the Sony. The Sony takes a while to load a disc, but it has very fast disc access once loaded. Sometimes however, the Sony lags when respond to disc commands but when it does respond it moves *fast*. Also, on occasion, the Sony player has spontaneously "rebooted" itself. I have not been able reproduce it at will but it seems to be related to changing tracks. I haven't had any problem of this sort with the Panasonic.

Features/adjustments: Panasonic. Between the adjustable GUI, adjustable subtitles, variable zoom, color manipulation, noise reduction, the Panasonic overwhelms with features. The Sony is no slouch, however, it does allow for 480i via HDMI and has a nifty "jacket" feature for display when the DVD is stopped. Not all discs have the "jacket". I think the Panasonic's GUI is a bit more refined, while the Sony's in some cases might be a bit easier to navigate, the presentation and "look" of the GUI is better with the Panasonic.

Construction: Panasonic. The Panasonic feels solid and more secure than the Sony. I like the Panasonic's tray better. The Sony, while being virtually all-metal -- including a front panel, doesn't quite have the solid feel of the Panasonic. The Sony's rigidity is much better than the Denon DVD-1910, however. The Sony does have gold plated RCA jacks.

Remote: Panasonic. It's close. I prefer the layout and overall feel of the Panasonic's keys better, but the Sony does have the open/close tray button.

I'll probably eat my words, but *just for fun*, my "Secrets" prediction: low-mid 70's for the Sony, mid 80's for the Panasonic.

vs. Sony DVP-NS975V #2

Here is another comparison (thanks to GreggPenn):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476047

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Thank you: JKA/V, CriCriCri, umr, Rich4av, Radsman, Sango, MVPinBoynton, willieaspen, Hugh2, mallu2u, GreggPenn, dm71, Jay Suburb, Tohoho, LiteUp!, sfhub

Paul Bigelow

Paul: I own a 4805 and I would love to hear about the S97's performance at 480p (both HDMI AND 480i over components. Please compare with your xp50 if you're willing to do so. As the 4805 uses the FLI2310, I care about the core section more than the deinterlacing capabilities.

Thanks, Lucky one !

Sure, I'll be happy to compare with the DVD-XP50 and let you know what I see. I'll use Avia and DVE for test pattern comparisons. Will look for macroblocking and other anomalies.

What questions would people like to see answered?

A must for me on my next player is the capability to play DVD-R's since I backup my DVD's.

Would you happen to have any DVD-R's you can test?

Getting a new TV in the near future and want to get a new DVD player for it, since my other one is pretty old and not pro-scan. Thinking of getting the new Toshiba 52HMX94, which I believe converts to 720p... will this be a good player at a good price for me? 98% movie watching, 2% listening to CDs. HDMI to HDMI. Thanks for your opinion.

iqwertyi -- Yes, I have DVD-R's to try out.
Lodey, will let you know how the HDMI to HDMI works out.

Thanks Paul... basically, I have had my eye on this for a while as a new player for a new TV... this is weird, in the manual it looks like if you use optical from DVD player to receiver, it only allow 2 channel sound? Huh?I am looking at the top of page 7 of the manual. I would have the HDMI to the TV, but optical/coax from the DVD player to the receiver.

Paul: Have you already ordered the player?

Yes, indeed!

from onecall? How is their return policy and customer service? Any thoughts?

Right here: http://ww3.onecall.com/Policies.mpt?Pos=122

Is good enough for me.

Will wait for your review!

Please check for macroblocking as well as blacker than black and whiter than white passing. I'm also curious as to which chip it's using, FLI-2310 or FLI-2301.

Thanks!

Lodey, I read through the manual a while ago, and from what I remember, the 2 channel audio thing only applies to DVD-Audio disks. The deal there is that for DVD-A, you have to use the 5.1 analog outputs to get any more than 2 channel from that type of disk only - it doesn't apply to normal DVD's.

As I understand it, this newest implementation of HDMI will allow for DVD-Audio multichannel.

Will probably know more when the SA-XR70 is released (November?) and I can try a full HDMI connection.

Did Jason (onecall) mention if onecall is planning to increase the price as well? I am wondering whether to buy now from them or a bit later, after few reviews. The price difference might help me make the decision faster

Byte,

We'll see if the whites are clipped. Between the ramps, steps, of DVE and Avia we should be able to tell.

mallu2u,

Jason mentioned nothing about a price increase. I'm not certain that there is going to be a price increase. It could easily be a typo. But then again....

Again, if anyone has questions they want answered ask 'em here!

sold out on onecall. Hope it shows in stores soon. I am on the east coast. Per your calls to stores, where should I be looking for this player to appear first? CC, BB or others?

Paul,

I will seriously purchase this unit if it receives positive reviews from you (or other AVS members who have receive this in the next few days).

I currently own a Panasonic RP91 and the Zenith 318. The RP91 was a great player but the 318 just kills it with the 1080i/720p upconvert via component - especially when fed to the Panny 50in 7uy plasma. The 318 also, if you have not read, exhibits excellent surround audio via it's digital output -- don't ask me how, it just does. However, I still find quirks with this player and am looking for a replacement. I have HDCP connections on the plasma so HDMI is not a problem.

May I ask you to review the following:

- HD 720p/1080i upconversion (colors, details, MB?, white/black crushes, etc.)
- Digital Audio quality from DD and DTS (does it sound any more or less or the same as any DVD player you've had)

Also, may I ask you to post some pictures of the player itself and any displayed in pictures (upconvert mostly). Thanks -- looking forward to seeing your review.

Byte,

I don't recall if any of those discs have a fabled "105" IRE! I think the Avia and DVE have 95IRE and 100IRE settings.

Paul

Mine already shipped from OneCall this afternoon and I was charged $287.95 to credit card account. I contest this charge because OneCall charged me for FedEx shipping even though I should get it for free ("FedEx shipping included"). I should had paid $269.10, which is after the 10% discount for DVDs and DVD recorders over $199. I had already contacted OneCall on this and should receive a telephone call sometime tomorrow.

mallu2u, since OneCall no longer has the unit in stock, you may want to contact 6Ave when it will have it in stock. However, you will be missing the 10% discount, free 3 day FedEx shipping, and if you are a OneCall PASS member receive an instant $2.69 discount.

BodegaBay,

Thanks for asking! Will do. The camera is charging as I type. I wish I had the matching SA-XR70 to connect to it but I guess that unit will be available soon.

I can compre the player to a Momitsu V880 and a Panasonic DVD-XP50. Those are my main/most modern players (no real point in comparing to a Sony DVP-S7000!).

Paul

Does the S97 pass unadulterated 480i YCbCr over HDMI (so one can use a dedicated scaler do the scaling and deinterlacing)? Thanks.

Originally posted by japanesegeek
Does the SD97 pass unadulterated 480i over HDMI (so I can have dedicated scaler do the scaling and deinterlacing)?

We don't know for certain, but I suspect it will not if I read the manual correctly. Still, I will check.

If I may be so bold and make a testing suggestion...

Nobody on any forum or any review that I could find has done a real A/B comparison with these newfangled upsampling HDMI/DVI players on a CRT RPTV, comparing component progressive to 1080 upsampling. I'd love that test done.

My fundamental question, of course, is whether or not the beastie is as good as (or better than) the RP-82 for "normal" component progressive scan DVD-playing, with the added bonus of HD-ish upconversion.

Sharkshark,

I don't have projection of any kind but if someone chimes in with a test of the 'S97S with RPTV and I see it, I'll place the info here. I don't have the RP-82 but can compare to the XP50 -- just not with RPTV.

Paul

Bytehoven
The Digital Video Essentials disc has whiter than white and blacker than black signals in several places. One such test pattern is the Reverse Gray Ramp scale (Title 12 Chapter 14). What is digital white (235) resides at the second to last bar in the white section. You will see 3 white dots above/below (depending on whether you're looking at the top or bottom section of the scale) this bar in the black section. The bar that is next to it (at the end of the screen) is an above white signal (>235). As for what IRE value (>100IRE) it should have on the analog output of a DVD player, I don't know.

You really need a test pattern with an above white signal (>235 digital, >100IRE analog) to set the Contrast level. The same goes for black: you need a below black (<16 digital, <0IRE/7.5IRE) test pattern to set the Brightness level. Without these signals, you are only estimating the proper setting.

Layer change? I'd really like little or no layer-change pause in my next player.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
As I understand it, this newest implementation of HDMI will allow for DVD-Audio multichannel.

Will probably know more when the SA-XR70 is released (November?) and I can try a full HDMI connection.

Hi Paul,

Can you elaborate about how the connections would be in this implementation? i.e. Would you run HDMI from the DVD player to the TV, then another digital cable connection from the TV to the receiver to pass through the DVD-A signals?

There are only a few HDMI-ready receivers currently, and they are very pricey. Sorry if this questions already been answered elsewhere - I'm still waiting to connect up my first HDMI component, and it looks like this player may be the one.

Looking forward to your review. :)

Hello basselope,

Glad to answer. Actually, it should be like this:

DVD Player ---- HDMI cable ----> Receiver ---- HDMI cable ----> TV

The receiver decodes the multichannel DVD-Audio.

If all works according to plan only two HDMI cables will be needed for the multichannel-audio/video connections.

I don't know if the other HDMI-equipped players will decode multi-channel DVD-Audio.

Paul

My TV only has DVI input, Paul will you check to see any problem with converting HDMI to DVI? Thanks

Originally posted by megamii
Mine already shipped from OneCall this afternoon and I was charged $287.95 to credit card account. I contest this charge because OneCall charged me for FedEx shipping even though I should get it for free ("FedEx shipping included"). I should had paid $269.10, which is after the 10% discount for DVDs and DVD recorders over $199. I had already contacted OneCall on this and should receive a telephone call sometime tomorrow.

mallu2u, since OneCall no longer has the unit in stock, you may want to contact 6Ave when it will have it in stock. However, you will be missing the 10% discount, free 3 day FedEx shipping, and if you are a OneCall PASS member receive an instant $2.69 discount.

Thanks. I guess I shall wait now. I hope the price is not increased as was done on the Panny website. I hope that was by mistake or I shal feel bad about not buying from oncecall, when they had the machine. Anyways, now I shall wait for all the reviews on this player. Excited about that. Who all is getting this player this weekend?

Inguyen,

Will check HDMI--> DVI connction.

This HDMI only thing really bums me out.

So many DVI interfaces out there.

HomeTheaterHiFi claims blacks are clipped due to byte stream differences if you use a HDMI->DVI adapter? Is this still an issue? Can Gefen make a converter to neutralize this effect???

As it states --- it is in my possession!!!!!!

Time to have a little fun!

What? That fast? I thought you ordered it yesterday? I am excited now and looking forward to you review, pictures!

Pictures will come later, gotta go! ;)

Paul,will this player allow you to adjust color saturation,hue and
sharpness when outputting 480p with component or HDMI connection?

and please check on layer change while testing other things.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Hello basselope,

Glad to answer. Actually, it should be like this:

DVD Player ---- HDMI cable ----> Receiver ---- HDMI cable ----> TV

Paul
Paul, don't forget to compare with components at 480p-i also !

Anyone know if a HDMI --> M1-DA cable exists ? Would need it to connect with my Infocus 4805. If not, the signal would have to go through TWO adapters !!!!!

Thanks !

What is the consensus of those following this thread of the ANTICIPATED benefits of this DVD player vs the Sony DVPNs975V? I ordered my Panny S97 yesterday before the stock ran out at OneCall and think I may have made a mistake in that the Panny may not play +R discs whereas the Sony states in its specs that it does play them.

Thanks
Steve

It shall play +R/RW disks, I am sure. They just did not want to put it there. Paul might be able to confirm that as well. I would be VERY surprised if it does not play them.

That's what I'm hoping but why buy the Panny and NOT the Sony?

Knowing what HDMI -> DVI does to the picture is the most important thing to me!

Second, if you could answer on the audio quality. Is it like any ordinary player or does it have better spacing of the sound field or not, etc?

Thank You Paul!!!!

Originally posted by megamii
Mine already shipped from OneCall this afternoon and I was charged $287.95 to credit card account. I contest this charge because OneCall charged me for FedEx shipping even though I should get it for free ("FedEx shipping included"). I should had paid $269.10, which is after the 10% discount for DVDs and DVD recorders over $199. I had already contacted OneCall on this and should receive a telephone call sometime tomorrow.

mallu2u, since OneCall no longer has the unit in stock, you may want to contact 6Ave when it will have it in stock. However, you will be missing the 10% discount, free 3 day FedEx shipping, and if you are a OneCall PASS member receive an instant $2.69 discount.

megamii: Looks like someone just made a simple mistake, it will be taken care of today.

I'll run the unit through some tests on a 50 pioneer plasma, hdmi-dvi, and hdmi-hdmi, and of course, component and so forth.

btw, yes sold out, no the price will not be going up, and yes, I will have quite a few more in shortly. From the looks of it, it will be first come first serve, as there are already people in line for it :)

mallu2u: lists dvd-audio hdmi to a hdmi in receiver, dvd-audio multichannel, wma, mp3, dvd-ram, dvd-r, cd, cd-rw, hdcd, hi-mat, jpeg as formats it's compatible with. I may have missed cddv as well.

Jason

Hello,

Some preliminary findings posted.

Paul

Where Paul?

In the first post of this thread

Per paul's findings, +RW supported and therefore +R shall also be supported. Now I am waiting for a detailed review from Paul and a comparison with other players and the PQ of the player at HD modes.
Paul, Which players are you going to compare this with?

There is *lot* that can be configured in this player. It might take a day or two to really get a "feel" for it so some initial findings might change, depending upon the configuration.

My initial thoughts, macroblocking aside, is that the picture is very good to exellent, more detailed at 1080i than the Momitsu. Based upon my memory I would say that the DVD-S97S is better than the Denon DVD-1910 -- at least it doesn't jitter/flicker at 1080i HDMI.

I didn't notice any HDMI/HDCP compatibility issues with the Panasonic TV. A picture appeared right away.

What has been reported so far was determined *very* quickly. I should be able to post more/better/pictures this evening.

Paul: Also see which mode you like more 720p or 1080i? Also, the headings in 'Blue' are not that noticeable. Can you change to Red or some other color?

Any visible evidence of the dreaded Chroma bug? Can you check with the Toy Story Menu screen, or other known source that exaggerates this problem?

Any difference in PQ between HDMI and component at 1080i or 720p?

Also, take that cover off and verify what is inside! 2310?

Have not tried at 720p. The Panasonic TV does not accept 720p. Will check 720p on Hitachi plasma TV later.

Anyone else have a problem with the bold blue font?

I have a good guess as to what deinterlacer is inside. Need to verify player's "fully-working status" for certain. Warranty issues, if you know what I mean.

So I take it that it won't play SACD? How bad is the macroblocking? Do the Sony GWIII/IV show this problem a lot when used with Faroudja chips?

Panasonic players will probably never, ever play SACD. I do not have an SACD to even try.

I have not tried a DVD-Audio disc -- I have several of those.

The macroblocking is present. I can't really say how much until I understand the player's configuration better. Initial viewing of the macroblocking reminded me of the DVD-1910's -- but I'm not nearly finished with set up or configuration.

I didn't spend anytime reviewing sound quality. No time. Just verified that the HDMI did pass two channel to the Panasonic TV. One connection, no separate audio cables. Will, of course, post sound quality evaluations later.

Paul

Unit has a fl2310-lf faroudja chipset, pic following shortly.

Is this the chip that is known to have macroblocking issues? Totally bummed that Paul can see MB on this player.

Thanks Jason! Didn't want to void warranty before I determined that the player is fully working!

Paul

The macroblocking is present.


Not unexpected but I gotta do this anyways.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooOoOOOOoOooooooOOOO...

Thanks, needed to vent. Please continue with your regularly scheduled thread.

No prob Paul, I happen to be a servicer, so no warranty voided by me :)

Don't make too much of this MB, at least yet. I basically set: 1080i HDMI, 16:9 screen size, auto pillarboxing, blacker than black, LCD screen type. *Quickly* set black levels and then ran with it.

Hello Jason,

If you could post several interior shots that would be great. I'll link to them in the main posting.

Thanks again!

Paul

I would like to know how well the S97 scales letterbox DVDs.

Internal shot, full:

Chipcloseup shot,

Next obvious questions:

Is DCDi used for component outputs as well?

Any obvious picture quality differences between component and HDMI?

bfdtv,

I took a *very quick* look at the zoom function. It seems to work pretty good but it does introduce some artifiacts. Quick, initial viewing indicated to me that the zoom picture quality is not as good as the Momitsu's. The range of zoom appears to be be quite extensive as has been in recent Panasonic players.

Please, if you will sir(s), "macroblocking"? Present but what is it exactly?

Do you have the momitsu or are you working by memory? I also wonder about how it compares to the Zenith 318.....same chipset?

Do you have the momitsu or are you working by memory? I also wonder about how it compares to the Zenith 318.....same chipset?
No, the Zenith uses the FLi2301. The Panasonic uses the same FLi2310 found in the Denon 3910.

Originally posted by Radsman
Please, if you will sir(s), "macroblocking"?

Here is a thread to get started with macroblocking:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=448668

LOTS of debate on it -- basically, its a compression artifact that certain, recent Faroudja deinterlacers seem to exaggerate -- and looks like little squares (blocks). It's not always seen and its visibility can depend upon the DVD, monitor, and screen settings.

Originally posted by Tup
Do you have the momitsu or are you working by memory? I also wonder about how it compares to the Zenith 318.....same chipset?

Tup,

I have the Momitsu V880 and Panasonic DVD-XP50. I no longer have the Denon DVD-1910. I do not have or ever used the Zenith DVB-318.

Even if the DVD-S97 uses the FLI-2312 chip, will there be problems? I thought I recalled there were problems with the FLI-2312 in the Secrets web site.

Originally posted by megamii
Even if the DVD-S97 uses the FLI-2312 chip, will there be problems? I thought I recalled there were problems with the FLI-2312 in the Secrets web site.

...but the DVD-S97 uses the FLi-2310....as seen in the pics.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Next obvious questions:

Is DCDi used for component outputs as well?

Any obvious picture quality differences between component and HDMI?

OK...so I guess it does use DCDi for the component outputs as well, since it scaling there as well (and on the FLi-2310 can do this). Cool.

What about the MPEG decoder? This is what I am really interested to know. THe cheapo version, or the same/similar part from the RP-82/XP-30/50?

Thanks Paul.

What kind of Panny TV do you have?

What looks better? 480p or 1080i from the S97?

How about between HDMI and component?

Originally posted by jrock65
Thanks Paul.

What kind of Panny TV do you have?

What looks better? 480p or 1080i from the S97?

How about between HDMI and component?

Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD. Will be connecting to a Hitachi 32HDT55 plasma later.

Have only tried 1080i. Didn't have time for 480p evaluation. If anything different from the 1080i is noted at 480p the difference will be posted in the 480p section.

Have not tried component at all, but will.

Thanks Paul. I also did a search and came up with this:

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau

"Macroblocking is a type of over-compression problem that can be found using any player on some commercial DVDs where the producers weren't careful enough when they made the DVD transfer.

The "Macroblocking Bug", on the other hand, is a bug in some players that causes video noise to be emphasized, and is usually first seen as what appears to be excessive macroblocking noise, even though the same scenes play just fine on other players.

So most players will exhibit macroblocking if you play a poorly produced DVD. And some displays will emphasize minor, thoroughly ignorable, macroblocking typically found on mid-quality DVDs if the display is not correctly calibrated. The point being that just because you see "macroblocking" does not necessarily mean you are seeing the "macroblocking bug".

Players with the bug -- players that exhibit the problem even with good DVDs and well calibrated displays -- appear to be limited to players using a particular Faroudja video chip. For reasons not clearly understood, not all people who have these players see this problem. It may be related to an interaction between the damage the player is doing to the image and subsequent display-dependent processing such as scaling going on in particular displays -- processing that would be done differently or not at all on some other display. It may simply be that the bug appears only in a fraction of the units manufactured. No one seems to know for sure. The point being that there are many happy owners of the players that are known to have exhibited this bug in someone else's setup.

Even in players which are known to have the bug, the problem does not appear if you use 480i output. The Denon 3910 shows the problem on it's Component 480p outputs but is almost entirely free of it at one specific resolution on it's digital outputs. Thus depending upon your intended use, even a player with the bug may work just fine for you even if you have the type of display that seems to make the bug visible.

However, players without this particular Faroudja processing do not appear to exhibit the bug with any displays at any resolution using any cabling. The Pioneer Elite 59avi, for example, appears to be free of this problem."

Thanks Radsman,

Good description by Mr. Pariseau.

Again, wouldn't make too much of MB issue yet. I should know more tonight.

I wonder how this unit compares with the Denon 3910! =)

Didn't take long for that! ;) I don't have that player.

Will you be able to test HDMI to DVI? To test clipping?

Thanks,
- Todd

Hello Todd,

Yes, I'm going to check out the HDMI-->DVI clipping. Just keep an eye on the first posting of this thread. Won't be until this evening at the earliest.

Paul

I'm dying to know. My flakey Momitsu wants to know too.

Paul:

You gotta watch some anime for review!! That's how I would use for comparision against other units!

Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
I'm dying to know. My flakey Momitsu wants to know too.

I'm right with you Todd, this is a big thing for me too!!!

All: I find it hilarious how many posts we are doing on this thread now all of a sudden that someone has a unit in their hands. Like wildfire!

Shame it won't support 480i over HDMI. I don't understand why they don't support it, I can't imagine leaving the information alone is very hard to implement. :(

Originally posted by bfdtv
...the Zenith uses the FLi2301. The Panasonic uses the same FLi2310 found in the Denon 3910.

I have the Zenith with the Fli2301. Can I presume the Panny's FLi2310 to be "better?" What are the improvements from the latter chip?

Originally posted by bfdtv
No, the Zenith uses the FLi2301. The Panasonic uses the same FLi2310 found in the Denon 3910.

This is what I found amazing. Panny delivers such a better chip (2310) at less than half the price of 2910 and so much less than 3910. Kudos to them for doing that. Just this chip makes it better machine than Denon 1910 in my opinion.

I'm just excited to have this thing after months of delays and rumours.

"Yes Virginia, it does have Faroudja!"

The disc loader tray is clear like the 'S47 and it is illuminated by blue LEDs.

The player is quieter in operation than the DVD-1910.

Isn't the front part of the S97 have the chrome look on the front of the tray loader?

Paul! Change the LCD light to have a red or purple look ahahahah!

one more q to add - noticed firmware in your checklist - are we 100% sure it's upgradable?

Sango,

I will do no such thing to this DVD-S97S ;)

hancox,

I know nothing about the 'S97S firmware: version, upgradeable or not. The entry is just a placeholder should the information become available.

Originally posted by JKA/V
Chipcloseup shot,

JKA/V,

Can you tell me the part number on that large Panasonic/MEI MPEG decoder ship sitting next to the Genesis FLi-2310? I can't tell from your picture. Is it the same MN677531KA, as in the RP-82/XP30/50? This may be one badass player after all!

Thanks...

When I'm done testing video on it, I'll pull it back apart and take a gander.

If it was the same as the rp91/82/xp30/50 that would be excellent

Paul - how bad is the macroblocking? Does it appear at all resolutions? I thought the 2910 (same chip) was clear of it at 720p - maybe this one is as well?


Lancestorm - we could just get 2 Bravo D2's and 2 Momitsu's and a Gefen 4 way switcher. I bet that way we would have 1 completely stable, region free DVI Sigma solution at any given time.

Of course - it would be hard to not look at them like a stack of Karate blocks...

Hope someone can find a way to make this player region-free. Would be nice :D

Paul: Based on ur calls to stores, where is it going to appear first? I am on the east coast (VA)

Todd,

I didn't have long to take a look at it or work with the adjustments. All I can really indicate is that at 1080i HDMI -- I see it. Tonight after working carefully with the player and TV adjustments it might be minimized or go away.

Paul

Some body please kick my butt to calm me down :p

The only retailer in my area that indicated for certain that they are going to have it is Ultimate Electronics. This player might be a limited distribution item.

Originally posted by lancestorm
I'm right with you Todd, this is a big thing for me too!!!



I third that!

I love the v880 dvi PQ, 4x3 handling, region morphing ability. I am SICK of the stupid remote. It's just driving me crazy (and my new Harmony remote didn't fix it).

Seems the Panny does OK with the 4x3. I NEED to know how the HDMI->DVI fares. DVD-A is just a bonus.

Originally posted by megamii
Even if the DVD-S97 uses the FLI-2312 chip, will there be problems? I thought I recalled there were problems with the FLI-2312 in the Secrets web site.

I never heard of the FLI-2312 (must be FLI2310)!! Must be something new!! =) lol!! j/k!
===================
Paul:

Can you compare the the RP91's scaler to the DVD-S97's one?

Thanks

Sango

Hey Paul,

You're not looking so hot. Maybe you should go home early.... :)

Sango,

I have the Panasonic DVD-XP50, Momitsu V880, Sony DVP-S7000, Terapin TT-1800, Toshiba SD-P1000, SD-P2000, Sony RDR-GX7, Teac 550, Cyberhome CH 320.

I do not have the RP-91. ;)

Paul

Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
Hey Paul,

You're not looking so hot. Maybe you should go home early.... :)

LOL!

If I can survive until tonight I'll be OK.

Awwwwwwww! bad news!!

I have at home, 3 RP82s (I had 4, sold one), 3 RP56's, and 2 RP91s (bought both of them defective. I fixed one of them, the other can be fixed but didn't bother to repair it yet.).

Then you need another Panasonic! :)

Originally posted by Sango
I never heard of the FLI-2312 (must be FLI2310)!! Must be something new!! =) lol!! j/k!


How did the FLI-2312 came to my mind? You are right, there is no chip under that name.

Originally posted by Sango
Awwwwwwww! bad news!!

I have at home, 3 RP82s (I had 4, sold one), 3 RP56's, and 2 RP91s (bought both of them defective. The other can be fixed but didn't bother to repari it yet.).

Sango, you looking for another RP-91 for the spare parts?

;-)

Hi Bytehoven:

Nope, I put a rest to purchasing defective units for now since I'm back to studying. (oh I fixed my post which you quoted). Did your unit break?
----------------------------------------------------------

Paul, I'll get the other unit, which most likely is the S97 on the condition it surpasses the RP82 and does well on the shootout.

Sango

Originally posted by Sango
Hi Bytehoven:

Nope, I put a rest to purchasing defective units for now since I'm back to studying. (oh I figured my post which you quoted). Did your unit break?

Sango

No, it's in great shape.

I actually have two of them. One I will keep for the studio since the macrovision defeat allows for easy sampling of movie titles and SFX.

It's also a great way to make my kids their own DVD-R copies of movies, so I don't have to worry about the masters getting trashed.

One thing I noticed on the remote was that I couldn't find an open/close tray button. Maybe it was missed in the rush, but I thought it odd.

Pushing "PLAY" on the remote automatically closes the tray.

Paul

no open/close on the remote paul

Huh? You have to go to the unit to open the tray?

Only to open it. Certainly not to take the disk out!

Yes, ahro, it appears so -- at least with the supplied remote.

Paul

I just noticed it too in the manual it doesn't have one. If I'm not correct, you maybe able to use a different Panasonic remote which does have the open/close and see if the unit responds. Initially I thought you guys were saying, the DVD unit itself has no open/close button hahaahh!!

I did buy 3 RP91 remotes and they are very useful to me.

Any confirmation on the MPEG decoder part #?

How does it handle non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs? Any vertical zoom functions for it?

Yes, there are zoom functions. I took a very quick look at it this morning. Will have more information tonight.

There are too many buttons (including buttons to control your TV!) on that remote control as to put a open/close button. :D

It is crammed, but I found it pretty easy to use. Better than some other Panasonic DVD remotes (especially better than the XP50's). It's going to be fun to program the URC-200 with this remote!

Paul

Just a reminder. I am taking note of questions and whether answered in a reply or not it is is being added to the first post of the thread. So, if there isn't an answer yet (noted by <tbd>) keep checking that first post.

I should have more answers tonight.

Paul

Paul,

I did not understand in your first post your reference to the pillar boxing. If you have 4:3 dvd material and want to play 720p/1080i output, is the picture stretched to 16:9 or can you view it in 4:3 with those picture modes? Or do you need to drop down to 480p/480i through component to get 4:3 material to play 4:3?

Does it have the memory function at the last play point even after you eject the disc similar to the RP82?

Lance: Yes, it will pillarbox 4:3 material with the HDMI @ 1080i. The Avia menus which should be 4:3 were an oddity: The background images are stretched 16:9 but the menu items 4:3 which created a double image. The 4:3 movie "Singin' in the Rain" , for example, is displayed 4:3 using HDMI @ 1080i. No need to push other buttons or drop down resolution.

ahro: Yes, I think it does. I think I tried that this morning but can't remember in the flurry of activty. Will note and confirm.

Everything tried this morning was via 1080i via HDMI. Note the sections in the first post for: 1080i HDMI / 480p HDMI / 480p component. No other resolution or connection was tried. Will work on others connections/resolutions tonight.

Paul

Originally posted by ahro
Does it have the memory function at the last play point even after you eject the disc similar to the RP82?

Operating Instructions
pg. 11

If there's no clipping from HDMI>DVI I think the unit sounds very promising and I'm going to buy it and sell my 1910. I have the Panny 500 projector so its a nice match if I won't lose PQ going to DVI.

Anyone know where to get an HDMI>DVI adapter quickly and inexpensively? Radio Shack doesn't carry them.

Please Paul don't forget to post a 480i section in the first post if possible.
Also check 480i-p Y/C delay. In fact, any difference with the xp50 would be appreciated.

Is it possible to check the subtitle to frame accuracy ? My Zenith 318 is driving me nuts as it posts the subtitles a full 1.5 sec before the words are told !

Thanks !

Cricricri,

Will check 480i y/c delay: Component, composite, S-Video

Will check subtitle accuracy. That's a big pet peeve of mine as well.

Paul

Paul - thanks for all your work. And you're not even getting paid! :)

Anyways, to add to your list -

1) 720p over HDMI/DVI (I guess this will be covered soon) - esp MB at this resolution
2) front panel - you indicated that there was something lighting up?! Is it some crazy garish bright light that would be annoying (and noticeable) in a darkened room?
3) general feeling of build quality?

THANKS!

It may have already been asked, but does it come with and HDMI cable?

Hea,

It fun stuff so it's OK!

1. Will try. I have no means to try 720p via HDMI only but can try 720p HDMI to DVI.

2. The clear tray is illuminated a bright blue. Have not tried to see if it can be turned off (at least during play).

3. I didn't even have the unit in my hands that long before hooking it up. The build quality seemed to be OK -- fairly solid for a plastic faced player. The rest of the cabinet is metal. Again, I'll have more of description later.

I had less than an hour to use the player this morning. It all went very fast!

Yes, it comes with the cable.

And thanks, too, Paul for all the work

Yes, the player comes with an HDMI-HDMI cable. Please refer to the first posting which is a repository for the accumulated data. I'll try to organize it better.

Paul: Fantastic work! You are putting so much time and effort into this for all of us. Thanks. Looking forward to your detailed review now.
I'm sure you're by far the hottest member on this forum right now! :)

Thanks, trying my best. There was a lot of anticipation for this player and a lot of questions that needed (and still need) to be answered.

I hope those who purchase the player like what they get!

If anyone has a RPTV and/or CRT and gets this player that's one area that I need help in as I have no RPTV. Otherwise, I have LCD and Plasma.

I shall do that, as soon as onecall/local store gets more supply of this player. I have a Sony XBR 60'' RPTV.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Lance: Yes, it will pillarbox 4:3 material with the HDMI @ 1080i. The Avia menus which should be 4:3 were an oddity: The background images are stretched 16:9 but the menu items 4:3 which created a double image. The 4:3 movie "Singin' in the Rain" , for example, is displayed 4:3 using HDMI @ 1080i. No need to push other buttons or drop down resolution.


SCHWEET. That is key for me.

The Momitsu just took a LARGE step towards the door.
If the Panny doesn't have any HDMI-DVI @ 720p issues, the 880 is going, going, gone!

God it feels good to know that there just may be an actual reliable, good quality, upconverting DVD player at this price range.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Paul, thanks for all the info.

Excellent! I wouldn't expect any problems with an RPTV or CRT but there might be some sort of brand specific compatibility issue with the HDMI or HDCP.

Dave,

You're welcome. I didn't have much of a chance to view a lot of 4:3 material. Again, tonight, I'll look at much more. The Avia menu issue was strange and hope it isn't repeated on other discs.

Paul

Here's a stupid question but very relevant to me. I notice you show the player is compatible with DVD+RW, but what about DVD+R (since you list DVD-RW and DVD-R separately)? All of my recordable DVDs are DVD+R so if it doesn't support them, I may be SOL.

Thanks.

Originally posted by megamii
Since people are asking the same questions about this DVD player, I may suggest creating a frequently asked questions (FAQ) thread on it. Such as:

Q: Does the DVD-S97 include an HDMI cable?

Q: What Faroudja chip is used for this DVD player?


???

This is a FAQ thread. All one has to do is look at the first posting for all the accumulated data.

Paul

Originally posted by EricScott
Here's a stupid question but very relevant to me. I notice you show the player is compatible with DVD+RW, but what about DVD+R (since you list DVD-RW and DVD-R separately)? All of my recordable DVDs are DVD+R so if it doesn't support them, I may be SOL.

Thanks.

Eric,

I don't have a DVD+R disc and that's the only reason. I do have DVD+RW. Still I'll make it to be a separate <tbd> item.

Thanks!

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
???

This is a FAQ thread. All one has to do is look at the first posting for all the accumulated data.

Paul

A quick search on the thread on key words should help those in need.

The FAQ section isn't made of of questions, as such. Basically I just left out all the "What is...", "How does...", "Will it....", etc.

If people want the full questions let me know.

Regards,

Paul

Hey Paul
Sorry for this maybe a stupid question, but does it use the Genesis/Faroudja chip with Component Video? I heard it is only use with the HDMI. Also does it look on a RPTV?

Omar

I do believe the firmware version of the S97 is 5E160 or higher from a bit of reseraching.

Omar,

Not stupid. I don't know if the Faroudja (it would be 480p-only if it is) is on component. From looking at he internal board pictures from JKA/V I would think "no" unless there is a second Faroudja processor. But, I haven't tested so hang in there.

No info on RPTV. I don't have one.

Paul

Omar,

no upconverting for component out, only for dvi/HDMI only. Paul does not have an rptv to try it on.

Thanks Paul,

Actually just placed an order with One Call - #15 on their waiting list. Got MSRP less 10% and free Fedex. Figure if the reviews are negative in the next few days I can always cancel before I ship.

I am on TVA's pre-order list for the Samsung 941 but the Panasonic seems like exactly what I'm looking for and the 941 isn't supposed to ship until at least thanksgiving at this point (according to TVA).

Thanks for the info - great post.

Eric,

You're welcome. I should have some quality viewing/evaluating time tonight.

Paul

If anyone is interested, here is a front picture of what the UK's DVDS97EBS (http://www.panasonic.co.uk/dvd-players/dvds97ebs/index.htm) unit looks like. I presume the US version looks the same, Paul?

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/dvd-players/dvds97ebs/dvds97-im04.jpg

From what I can remember, yes, it looks like the picture. There might be a minor detail difference but I don't see it.

Paul

Well, picture at 480p/720p/1080i on hdmi out to pioneer pdp5040 is... very impressive.

Have a crowd of folks gathered around watching toy story 2.

So far, no chroma issues at all, proper overscan at 5, I usually set to around 3%. Avia pro culls a .5second measured layerchange, zone plates look good, sharpness is right on after using player advanced settings to bring it down -1. Very impressed myself, may have to do an a-b with my rp91..

that pic is missing the hdcd logo on the right top, other than that, looks identical.

All right Jason, thanks for the report! I didn't notice any overscan/cropping issues and 4:2:2 looked OK if I recall but I breezed through those patterns so fast.....

Paul

paul, did your monitor allow for hdmi at 4:4:4?

It gives you hdmi spacing choicse at rgb, 4:4:4, 4:2:2ycrcb as well.

I can't recall for certain. I think the selection was available, but didn't change it. Or, maybe I did. Still can't recall. I think I've reached the limits of what I can remember! :)

Oh ok thanks Paul & Texguy
This dvd player sounds great, but only if you have LCD, DLP or plasma. I can't wait tell someone tries it out with an RPTV to find out how it looks.

Omar

It's made in China. Mine is September 2004 build.

how's this for a silly test...:)

My RP-82 inserts pauses between tracks on the MLP layer of some DTS (the company) produced discs, notably the two Queen releases (NATO and The Game).

If you have one, throw it in and see whether it puts a 2 sec pause/silence between tracks 1 and 2 (they should, of course, blend from song to song).

Very, very interested in whether or not upconversion on an RPTV (say, the Sony KP57WV700 :) ) looks purdy...

you guys rok.

Originally posted by JKA/V
Well, picture at 480p/720p/1080i on hdmi out to pioneer pdp5040 is... very impressive.

So far, no chroma issues at all, proper overscan at 5, I usually set to around 3%. Avia pro culls a .5second measured layerchange, zone plates look good, sharpness is right on after using player advanced settings to bring it down -1. Very impressed myself, may have to do an a-b with my rp91..

That is saying something from a man who has DVD players coming through his shop by the dozens!

The upconvert signal to the Pioneer is a positive to us plasma owners. So much so that I placed an order.

I still would like to hear your a comparison to your RP91 though. I used this venerable unit for the last 2 years and only recently switched.

Originally posted by waltchan
Darn, I thought that it will be Made in Japan, based on the price. Guess I'm wrong. If anybody didn't notice, Panasonic raised the MSRP for this unit to $399.99 as opposed to $299.99, making the value of this unit worser than a Sony. That's what it says on the Panasonic website right now.

waltchan,

The price of $399.00 has been already noted at the Panasonic site. It has also been noted that when the player is "added to the cart", the price displayed is $299.00. The $399.00 price may be in error.

Paul

Originally posted by BodegaBay
That is saying something from a man who has DVD players coming through his shop by the dozens!

The upconvert signal to the Pioneer is a positive to us plasma owners. So much so that I placed an order.

I still would like to hear your a comparison to your RP91 though. I used this venerable unit for the last 2 years and only recently switched.

True, very true. Better the guy who beta tests most of the units on the market :)

I don't know if it will replace my fav rp91 player for some things, (like sdi mod), but given what I see so far, it would be my go to unit for people.

I'll see, in the midst of moving, so rp91 is in storage, may be awhile before that a-b gets done...

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
waltchan,

The price of $399.00 has been already noted at the Panasonic site. It has also been noted that when the player is "added to the cart", the price displayed is $299.00. The $399.00 price may be in error.

Paul

Coincidentally perhaps $399 appears to be the Canadian list price.

You gotta watch some anime for review!! That's how I would use for comparision against other units!

I agree with Sango. Anime is very difficult to deinterlace. When they do a pan across a static image, the flat diagonal lines tend to give the deinterlacers trouble - any bit of variance sticks out like a sore thumb. The Zenith 318 480p-1080i-480p process I go through combined with my X1 makes this a little more obvious than my previous Panny CP72. I'd like a player with good 480p output.

I like what I am reading so far. Perhaps I can ditch my Zenith 318 sometime this winter for the Panny.

Paul, can you verify whether or not you can see blacker than black when going from HDMI to DVI?

Originally posted by JKA/V
I don't know if it will replace my fav rp91 player for some things, (like sdi mod), but given what I see so far, it would be my go to unit for people.


Well heck, up until now you didn't say it was a SDI mod? I was actually thinking about this option as my Panny 50 7uy has SDI (or HDSDI) terminal board options. Instead, I went the upconvert DVD player route. BTW, how much better was was the SDI mod vs. std. progressive?

No worries on the A-B comparo. Let me know when you get a chance. Thanks.

I talked to Panasonic Tech Support this morning about the S97S. Something they told me didn't make sense. If you use the S97S with HDMI, the COAX outputs will not produce an audio signal. If that is true, that would be bad news for someone who doesn't have an HDMI receiver:

S97S HDMI Output---> HDMI to DVI Adapter ----> LCD Projector with DVI
input... this will work while at the same time:

S97S COAX Output ----> non-HDMI (regualr) receiver COAX input...will this work?

Yeah, serious shotstopper, and something I brought up on page 1. I will run the HDMI - HDMI into the TV and coax or optical right into the receiver... whether I am watching Lord of the Rings or playing a music CD, 2.0 isn't going to work, for sure.

Originally posted by monkeyphant
I talked to Panasonic Tech Support this morning about the S97S. Something they told me didn't make sense. If you use the S97S with HDMI, the COAX outputs will not produce an audio signal. If that is true, that would be bad news for someone who doesn't have an HDMI receiver:

S97S HDMI Output---> HDMI to DVI Adapter ----> LCD Projector with DVI
input... this will work while at the same time:

S97S COAX Output ----> non-HDMI (regualr) receiver COAX input...will this work?

Check Page 7 in the manual: "Select Off in 'HDMI Audio Output' page 17", when using "COAXIAL IN or OPTICAL IN" or "AUDIO IN 5.1ch."

Jeeeze, relax, you guys. You're making me nervous....

:( Just got off the phone with One Call. Looks they aren't expecting anymore 97s until December 1. Ordered anyway just in case I can't find one anywhere else. The rep said that they ran out of sammies & suggested the pannies to their customers & that's part of why they ran out so quick.

I believe the parts are still made in Japan. It's just assembled in China.

WOW! I sure am glad I ordered mine on Wednesday if Onecall is indeed sold out until 12/1! I should have mine tomorrow afternoon (Friday) and have it hooked up by dinner. I'll post a personal review of it as seen on my Panasonic TH5025up.

who else has them in stock?

just go try buying it on panasonic.com web site. I just attempted it "add to cart" and the item popped up with a good price and no mention of shipping issues.

To be correct, it does add into the cart for 299.99 and the fine print does say doesn't reflect S & H.

Unfortuately the panny site does not indicate whether they are in stock or not.

Yes.

The manual is packed with info. This is one loaded player.

Added a few more findings concerning:

White crushing
Non-Anamorphic zoom
480p HDMI Y/C delay
Subtitle sync
Audio/Video sync

Been enjoying this player tonight. Colors are excellent. Enormous detail -- much better than the Momitsu, in my viewing.

Navigating the menus is fairly quick. The Avia menu anomaly only happens with certain Avia menus. The main menus look/work OK. The lowest level menus behave strangely: The menu background shifts to 4:3 while the menu selection text is 16:9 causing a strange looking overlap. Menu operation is OK -- it just looks strange.

Has loaded and played every disc so far.

As far as animation, the Warner Looney Tunes Golden Collection looks outstanding. No problems at all. Sharp, vibrant, wonderful.

My apologies. I have not done the HDMI --> DVI test. I'll do it tomorrow. It's just too late and I'm bushed.

Paul

Have a nice sleep Paul. You deserve it! Seems like you shall have a long day tomorrow as well testing this player and fielding Qs. :D

Paul, count me as another one looking forward to a Panny XP-50 comparison when you can.

Paul,

Can you check if it will play PAL dvd.

Paul,

Since the red is out by 0.07 (missing units... specify), does that mean it's out of specifications?

Can you us in on how the unit compares to up the XP50?

For animation, it's a start for the Looney Tunes as a test. What I was intending is to use anime - the ones in question are the ones made in CG. Gundam SEED (http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/index.html) and Last Exile (http://www.lastexiledvd.com/) are two examples which can be used as a very good test for DVD players.

I guess you can buy one of the two and how it looks. I currently own both of the series and have the the boxes for them and collecting the volumes which are releasing on timely basis. LE is anamorphic widescreen while GS is 4:3.

Sango

Paul - what are you using this player with: LCD, plasma, CRT, DLP??

His first post mentions that. Display: Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD HDMI 1280x720
His is also going to try out Plasma next

Since the red is out by 0.07 (missing units... specify), does that mean it's out of specifications?

Only for the display to which it is connected. Even if the DVD player does not cause the delay, once it leaves the player other things can cause problems - cables, display electronics. The units are microseconds on Avia, IIRC.

larry

Paul,
What part of TX are you in?
I've got a 3910 and live in the DFW area. Would love to see how they compare.

Paul,

When you talk about the lip synch, I see that it has the feature to correct this, but does it actually have any audio synch issues that you have noticed? DTS maybe?

The sammy 931 had a big audio synch issue. The first few seconds of chapter 2 of Saving Private Ryan DTS, was terrible.

Brian,

I think Paul mentioned about Ultimate Electronics and they only have stores in DFW metroplex. Love to see a comparison between the Panny and the Denon 3910.

Hello,

More updates (see main posting):

Note that a lot of the video sections are joined with the differences noted in RED.

No lip sync issues noted, but is adjustable.

The HDMI-->DVI was tried. I didn't see any crushing at any resolution but note that the "USER" setting must have the brightness set to +1 for the BTB to pass (HDMI or HDMI->DVI).

Freq resp / edge enhancement noted at various resolutions

XP50 remote can open/close S97S tray

Y/C seems a bit better with HDMI->DVI @ 720p

Basically, the HDMI->HDMI and HDMI->DVI looked about the same.

I don't have a PAL disc to try.

The only anime I have to try is Artisan's "Speed Racer" or "Mach-a-Go-Go" ;). I do have "Jonny Quest"!

Have not done any tests with component yet.

Have not compared with any other player (except with recollections from memory) yet.

Have not tried DVD-Audio yet.

Have not evaluated sound yet.

Paul

I did pre order at onecall. Now just have to wait. Thanks for all the review. Big plus for no cropping from HDMI -----> DVI

Overscan can vary from display to display but the Avia Pixel cropping went out to the VERY EDGE -- 0. On some 4:3 material a white line or other things could be seen at the very edge.

Good news indeed. My Momitsu just let out a nerve shattering shriek "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Paul - can you elaborate on the Cinema1 / User Brightness +1 setting or any settings related to crushing? Is this an HDMI->DVI only applicable comment? What impact does the +1 have on the image?

I suspect for a lot of people the decision for this player is going to come down to how much one can stand macroblocking. I couldn't really adjust it out. For dark scenes the brightness can be turned down, but that's about it. Applying some MPEG noise reduction can help smooth the blocks out a bit but at the expense of detail.

Paul

Thanks for taking on the responsibility of providing all this excellent info.

To keep things very simple and in keeping with generally accepted reviewer lingo I gather it's safe to assume you feel this player doesn't suck.

Darn... no PAL discs to try? Can anyone donate a disc for him? :-)

I would, but all my PAL discs are supposedly crappy transfers even when displaying correctly. ^_^;

The "Cinema1" and "Brightness +1" applies to all resolutions and HDMI->HDMI and HDMI->DVI connections.

Any picture setting other than "USER" (with contrast set to 0) and "CINEMA1" will crush white.

I saw no downside to "Brightness +1" -- just had to reduce the display's brightness to make BTB blend with the background. However, I didn't see any real difference with setting the "Brightness +0" and setting the display's brightness back to where it was.

Paul

OT: Chirpie, is it from Punch drunk love ?

You took the box! Let's see what in the box! [box is opened] Nothing! Absolutely nothing!! Stupid!! You're so stupid!!!

onecall does not plan to get the player till Dec now :( Seems like no local store has even heard of the player (in VA atleast). Anyone? I want this player!

Hugh2,

Right. I don't think this player creates a vacuum. ;) Far from it.

Paul

Paul: Now that you have done significant testing on this machine, what is your opinion. Good, Great, Excellent? Plan to Keep it and recommend it, over 1910, Momitsu, etc? Overall opinion.

Mallu2u,

I think it is an excellent to great player (so far), with the caveat of "macroblocking" -- which can be personal thing, like bad pixels and contrast settings.

I plan to keep it. I like it better than the Denon DVD-1910 and Momitsu V880. Remember though, the Momitsu has, for some, a huge advantage in upconversion via component and no HDCP via DVI.

I'm far from finished from completing the evaluation.

Paul

Paul, I will be using the HDMI to DVI connection for the first time when my unit arrives next Monday. I am pleased that you did not have problems with it.

megamii,

I think you'll like it. I didn't see any problems with HDMI->DVI. No crush, no HDCP negotiation problem.

The unit is pretty solid. Feels sturdy. It's not heavy but doesn't flex like the DVD-1910. Leagues better than the poor Toshiba SD-5970. The 'S97S actually has 4 individual feet rather than the DVD-1910's front two feet and two rear pads.

Paul

Anyone know where I can buy this player, besides onecall (out of stock)?

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow

I think it is an excellent to great player (so far), with the caveat of "macroblocking" -- which can be personal thing, like bad pixels and contrast settings.


As far as the mb, is it any better or worse than the Denon players?

My girlfriend and I watched Mulan SE on my 1910 the other day and it has bad macroblocking problems in some scenes.

Some of the movies I test with:

Singin' In The Rain (new Warner 2-Disc)
Robin Hood (new Warner 2-Disc)
Lawrence of Arabia (new Columbia Superbit)
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World (original MGM)
Looney Tunes Golden Collection (Warner)
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (Warner)
The Big Country (MGM)
Ben Hur (MGM)
The Beatles Anthology (Capitol/EMI)
John Lennon : Imagine (Capitol/EMI)
Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines (MGM)

Where's the new(er) stuff?!? OK.
Terminator 2
The Mummy
Star Trek : First Contact

Plenty of others, but these are the ones I tend to focus on.

Paul

Rock,

I think the MB is, overall, about the same as the 1910. People might be able to pick out differences later on. I no longer have the 1910 and am just relying on memory of specific scenes.

Again, there is so much to configure with this player there might be "something" to help out. Except for the MPEG NR, I haven't found it yet.

Paul

I believe this player should have less MB than Denon 1910. Simply coz Panny uses 2310 (which Denon 2910 uses as well) as uses and Denon 2910 shows far less MB than Denon 1910 (which uses 2301)

Originally posted by Cricricri
OT: Chirpie, is it from Punch drunk love ?

You took the box! Let's see what's in the box! [box is opened] Nothing! Absolutely nothing!! Stupid!! You're so stupid!!!

LOL. Nice try... but it's actually from a Weird Al movie... UHF.

Not the greatest movie ever made, not even close, but I liked it and that's the line that popped into my head when I made my account.

^_^;

Can't wait from someone to try it with a front projection device, especially a IF 4805 (low res) to see which res (480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i) will look best and if its M1DA plug will interact OK with the HDMI connection.....

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Rock,

I think the MB is, overall, about the same as the 1910. People might be able to pick out differences later on. I no longer have the 1910 and am just relying on memory of specific scenes.

Again, there is so much to configure with this player there might be "something" to help out. Except for the MPEG NR, I haven't found it yet.

Paul
Paul, is there a way to capture a scene that displays MB on a photo and post it here? I personally have never seen what MB looks like (I guess since I never owned a player with those notorios Faroudja chips).
Also, just wanted to note that it probably would be a good idea to explain to folks the path a video signal goes every time you change resolution settings and cables (i.e. where is it deinterlaced, scaled up/down, etc).

Direct Connection from player to display

Two cables: Panasonic HDMI/HDMI , Monster HDMI/DVI

Paul

How extensive is the macroblocking problem? Does it happen every minute, every 5 minutes, or what? Is it just a small part of the screen or does it dominate the picture? I realize it varies depending on your source material, but am curious on your overall take. I've never seen it and am trying to get a sense of whether or not it is a deal breaker for me.

Xerin,

It can be scene dependant, display dependent, configuration dependant. Some movies it might never be seen with other movies with specific scenes it can be easily seen.

Here is nice explanation of "macroblocking" in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4573849#post4573849

There are *plenty* of threads (especially the Denon threads) that endlessly discuss/debate/deny macroblocking, search on "MB" or "macroblocking". I'll get around to posting pictures but to convey what it looks like via words to anyone's satisfaction is almost impossible.

Paul

I'm wondering how this player compares to the new Sony HDMI player...

I agree - I was always thinking I'd stay away from Sony b/c they don't use Faroudja for 3:2 pulldown but if Faroudja produces MB, maybe the Sony makes sense. Anyone know if Sony's 3:2 pulldown is any good?

Read through the panny manual though and this thing is definitely PACKED with features.

..just wondering. I have a simple set-up. My plasma display is from Panasonic and I have a 3 year old Sony DVD player. My audio is routed thru tube pre-amp and, then, to 2 mono tube amps sitting 2 feet from speakers. I may never know but was thinking to myself, with all this talk of digital hook-ups and different connecting cables..and on and on..will any of this give us a better quality dvd picture than what I have? I know I would get many comments to the contrary but I will never believe so. The next step up in quality will be HD. Until then, I am most happy with my 'simple' set up.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
There are *plenty* of threads (especially the Denon threads) that endlessly discuss/debate/deny macroblocking, search on "MB" or "macroblocking". I'll get around to posting pictures but to convey what it looks like via words to anyone's satisfaction is almost impossible.

Paul
Exactly. That is why finally seeing a picture of an MB artifact will be very beneficial to all of us. :) Perhaps it would be good to take a full screen shot and then a close up of the area which exhibits the MB. Many thanks to you Paul for taking time to accomplish this.

If I recall, pictures from other players have been posted in the numerous threads. Finding them however.....

This evening and weekend I should be able to post some pictures.

Originally posted by EricScott
I agree - I was always thinking I'd stay away from Sony b/c they don't use Faroudja for 3:2 pulldown but if Faroudja produces MB, maybe the Sony makes sense. Anyone know if Sony's 3:2 pulldown is any good?

Read through the panny manual though and this thing is definitely PACKED with features.
Eric,
It's generally accepted that for 3:2 pulldown, i.e. film, the Silicon Image 503/504 is the deinterlacer of choice. For video, Faroudja does a better job. If you watch mainly film based DVDs, there's no reason for you to seek Faroudja deinterlacers. If you check out high end DVD players and most of the Denons "pre-upscaling", you'll see Silicon Image deinterlacers. Pioneer tends to use something else, Sony may also. And as Kris Deering said, the main reason Denon switched to the new Faroudja chip was because it was cheaper - the 23xx is a deinterlacer *and* scaler. The Sil503/504 chips are only deinterlacers. Another chip is needed for scaling in "upscaling" DVD players.

larry

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Eric,
It's generally accepted that for 3:2 pulldown, i.e. film, the Silicon Image 503/504 is the deinterlacer of choice. For video, Faroudja does the best job. If you watch mainly film based DVDs, there's no reason for you to seek Faroudja deinterlacers. If you check out high end DVD players and most of the Denons "pre-upscaling", you'll see Silicon Image deinterlacers. Pioneer tends to use something else, Sony may also. And as Kris Deering said, the main reason Denon switched to the new Faroudja chip was because it was cheaper - the 23xx is a deinterlacer *and* scaler. The Sil503/504 chips are only deinterlacers. Another chip is needed for scaling in "upscaling" DVD players.

larry

Interesting. But assuming my price range is roughly $300 or so and I want an upscaling player, is Faroudja my best bet? In other words, should I consider a Sony over a Samsung or Panasonic?

Originally posted by EricScott
Interesting. But assuming my price range is roughly $300 or so and I want an upscaling player, is Faroudja my best bet? In other words, should I consider a Sony over a Samsung or Panasonic? If possible, try the Sony and Panasonic, and see which one looks the best to you. I know that is not always possible, but that's the only way you can tell what looks best on your display and to your eyes. I see that you have a Sammy DLP, so I'd agree that a player doing 720p via HDMI/DVI is your best bet. The Bravos and Momitsus put out a nice DVI image, but their other issues have been chronicled here. :)

larry

Originally posted by ratflinger
:( Just got off the phone with One Call. Looks they aren't expecting anymore 97s until December 1. Ordered anyway just in case I can't find one anywhere else. The rep said that they ran out of sammies & suggested the pannies to their customers & that's part of why they ran out so quick.

I just talked to Brenden online with onecall....He said that they are expecting some more within the next 2 weeks, but they placed another order for some that will be here in December.

The pre-order list probably out numbers the ones being received soon.

I ordered mine yesterday morning. So, hopefully, I will get in on this next batch. ;)

Is macroblocking noticable/present only in digital display devices (fixed pixel count devices)? Do analog (tube) TV's show the problem also?

Thanks,

ps. Great job Paul !! You da man !!!!!

....Holdin' Jim And lovin' him.

:)

Even on the secrets site they're vague about whether upconversion is strictly beneficial for fixed res (read: digital) displays vs. CRT RPTV. Does -anyone- have experience or a link to good a/b comparisons for us users of wacky cathode tech?

TauRus (and others)

Exactly. That is why finally seeing a picture of an MB artifact will be very beneficial to all of us. Perhaps it would be good to take a full screen shot and then a close up of the area which exhibits the MB. Many thanks to you Paul for taking time to accomplish this.

As a philosophical point, if one has never seen it and does not know what to look for, one might be better off than having seen it or explained so that it becomes obvious. In this case, ignorance might BE bliss. I haven't seen it as far as I know so I'm not sure I want to degrade my viewing experience by knowing how the image I am seeing is defective.

Radsman

ps I reiterate the thanks to Paul for his enthusiastic evaluation of this player for all of our benefit. Thank you.

Originally posted by silvertone
Is macroblocking noticable/present only in digital display devices (fixed pixel count devices)? Do analog (tube) TV's show the problem also?


Both. It's not a display issue, it's a bad decoding issue and both analog and digital displays are going to display what the source device tells it to.

Everybody is welcome!

This weekend should free up a lot more time for the time-consuming items.

Paul

If the macroblocking is less than Denon-DVD-5900, 3910, 2910 and 1910, then it's the best one there is right? =)

Where is the component setup review?!? I thought was going to be done he he eh!!

Paul, buy the anime which I mentioned!! you'll like it and use it for your review! =)

Originally posted by Sango
If the macroblocking is less than Denon-DVD-5900, 3910, 2910 and 1910, then it's the best one there is right? =)

Where is the component setup review?!? I thought was going to be done he he eh!!

Paul, buy the anime which I mentioned!! you'll like it and use it for your review! =)

I have yet to see any MB with the 2910 on my HT1000 at 720p via DVI.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Again, there is so much to configure with this player there might be "something" to help out. Except for the MPEG NR, I haven't found it yet.

Paul

Paul,

Have you tried the Depth Enhancer under the Picture Mode in the Picture Menu. I found this information in the Manual.

"Depth Enhancer
Reduce the rough noise in the background to give a
greater feeling of depth."

Originally posted by mallu2u
Anyone know where I can buy this player, besides onecall (out of stock)?

Since you're in the DC area; Grafitti (202-296-8412) is expecting some in a couple of wks (I was referred to them by Panasonic regional sales office). They have a 3-day MBG.

Just read the manual: what are the Color space over HDMI (RGB - YCbCr4:4:2 - YCbCr4:4:4) options for and how will it affect the final picture ?

Originally posted by rider
Since you're in the DC area; Grafitti (202-296-8412) is expecting some in a couple of wks (I was referred to them by Panasonic regional sales office). They have a 3-day MBG.
I am very surprised that no local VA store even has this player in their system, let alone have it in stock. Is onecall the only store to have got this player yet or in the near future?

Hoodlum, yes, tried Depth Enhancer, didn't work.

CriCriCri,

4:2:2 -- SMPTE 292M
4:4:4 -- SMPTE 372M

Have a look here:

http://www.atsc.org/document_map/interfaces.htm

Here's a more concise description:

http://www.quantel.com/domisphere/infopool.nsf/HTML/dfb422?OpenDocument

Paul

For anyone in the DFW area, I called Ultimate Electronics and they are getting them in next week (11/3), BUT the price is high (close to the original MSRP on panny's website).

____________________
CriCriCri,

4:2:2 -- SMPTE 292M
4:4:4 -- SMPTE 372M
____________________

Well......... You just hit hard on my Peter's Principle ! How would it affect the image ? What's the best setting for my 854x480 that my 4805 would display natively ?

Called Panasonic and they say that this player might be release in a 'winter' month. Go figure!

Originally posted by mallu2u
I am very surprised that no local VA store even has this player in their system, let alone have it in stock. Is onecall the only store to have got this player yet or in the near future?

What is Panny's # so that I can ask them where I can buy a 97s? ??

I am from around Cincinnati, Ohio.

First digit is luminance: Y.
Second digit R-Y. (Red)
Third digit B-Y. (Blue)

4:4:4 Color information is sampled at the same rate as luminance.
4:2:2 Color information is sampled at half the rate as the luminance.

4:4:4 would provide more color information, in theory, it should be better. 4:4:4 is great for HD.

Paul, how to compensate for the red delay?

Since PooperScooper said it's 0.07 microseconds (I reconize it in nano), it's 70 nanos!! It seems bad right?

I used the Avia disc. It's hard to say how accurate it is but it's all I have. To me it seems fine in viewing.

Pooper,

My Panasonic LCD display can handle 4:2:2 and 4:4:4. The 'S97S will let you know what can be selected.

Paul

Oh ok, thanks Paul.

I guess we need Kris's equipment to determine exactly what it is in this case.

Originally posted by mallu2u
Called Panasonic and they say that this player might be release in a 'winter' month. Go figure!

I guess October is a Winter month! ;)

Well I just got my S97S delivered from Onecall. With all the excitement here I'm debating opening this thing and just listing it on ebay!! I'll give you guys a novice's opinion shortly, and let Paul handle the technical stuff... I just want an outstanding picture with excellent sound!