FWIW, I'd have no problem performing or attempting hacks/mods on my PJ. Electrical, mechanical, optical, whatever. Bring em on. (I plan to investigate panel alingment and stray light managment myself when I get the time.)Worst case is I'll break it and have to buy another. I'd have spare parts then. :)

Dave

I don't expect or advise people to take part their PJ's. No. not at all. Would't want to do that. Only a pro could do what I just did. On to other subjects.

As for respect..well.. We are now one of the so-called accredited manufacturers of video products. Panasonic loves us, for example. So I can't say bad things about Panasonic products. (I can say nice things, though!) Or anyone else's product, for that matter. Success brings silence. Ug. Muzzled.

As for having respect for the factory settings, I'd say not, as I change every single last one of them. Panasonic knows this is the norm, but makes the picture quite acceptable for the average Joe, who would never mess with their PJs. They just plop it down and watch it. For us nutty-wuts/anal freakaziods....they give us the extra controls.

The difference in quality when I switched to HDMI/DVI this evening, from VGA, was startling...then I remembered..all my analog VGA ports on all my other PJ's are.....modified!

The difference between HDMI and VGA on any of my other units is not that great, due to this modification. For example, I don't run my Action!1 720P DLP unit with the DVI cable..even though it is inches away. I use the VGA, which is outputting a 1080P signal from my HTPC. The image is slightly better, in my opinion, than what comes out of the DVI port. Remember, the unit is not stock.

I am also trying to get calibration info off this little LCD unit as soon as possible, as after we have done calibration work, wrestled some useful info of how it reacts with our coatings, etc......I get to take it apart and do mods.

KBK

I like reading all your post, and i also like taking things apart :D

Keep up the good work!

If I may, after reading many of these Panny 700 posts...It seems that this is not the projector for 'plug and play'. I have tried several DLP projectors in my home and the picture was very good right from beginning and the cost of projectors was less than $1200. For a moment, let us say the PQ is slightly better on the 700; just seems it is not worth almost a thousand more. Besdies, getting back to all the tweaks and adjustments, just not worth it, in my opinion. Of course, I realize, we all our differences of opinion. This is just mine.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Update on the 'white flash' issue. Can't believe I didn't think about trying this before. AE700U connected to Denon 2910 via Monster HDMI-HDMI cable.

NO DVD playing. It was just the default gray screen (selectable on the Denon player between blue, gray or Denon logo when nothing is playing or no DVD is inserted) and as I was doing something else after finishing a movie and before starting another one, took about 45 minutes (delay was longer than expected) and whaddya know? WHITE FLASH!!! So NO, it is NOT caused by the Faroudja chip, since I wouldn't think the chip is processing anything when it's just showing the default screen and nothing is playing.

Folks,

I have been using the Denon 2910 via HDMI with the AE700 and had white flashes from the beginning. About three weeks ago I upgraded my DVD player to a brand new model from Onkyo (SP1000) which uses a SiL504 chip instead of the Faroujda chip and it exhibits the same white flashes over HDMI.

The net is, it appears to be a bug in the AE700 HDMI circuitry.

Thank you,

Darren

Wow. HDMI is frighteningly good for LCD. Nice little projector. I'd rate it as a very smooth comparison to midway between a HD1 and HD2 DLP. And this is a first attempt (at this technological change)... Round two should be interesting.

I'd been using the VGA, thinking it can't be that far off from HDMI quality. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd almost be tempted to say that due to the observable quality difference between VGA and HDMI, that VGA was given a vestigial treatment on this projector.

Originally posted by mangopony
If I may, after reading many of these Panny 700 posts...It seems that this is not the projector for 'plug and play'. I have tried several DLP projectors in my home and the picture was very good right from beginning and the cost of projectors was less than $1200. For a moment, let us say the PQ is slightly better on the 700; just seems it is not worth almost a thousand more. Besdies, getting back to all the tweaks and adjustments, just not worth it, in my opinion. Of course, I realize, we all our differences of opinion. This is just mine.

You would say that if you hadn't seen one out of the box. The out of the box settings are quite good.

Originally posted by KBK
Wow. HDMI is frighteningly good for LCD. Nice little projector. I'd rate it as a very smooth comparison to midway between a HD1 and HD2 DLP. And this is a first attempt (at this technological change)... Round two should be interesting.

I'd been using the VGA, thinking it can't be that far off from HDMI quality. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd almost be tempted to say that due to the observable quality difference between VGA and HDMI, that VGA was given a vestigial treatment on this projector.

What's so startlingly different between VGA & HDMI? (Wish I could see A/B comparison for myself!). Others have noted no difference in picture quality, with VGA having the added benefit of zero overscan. I have yet to try HDMI, although now I'm tempted to.

Originally posted by KBK
Wow. HDMI is frighteningly good for LCD. Nice little projector. I'd rate it as a very smooth comparison to midway between a HD1 and HD2 DLP. And this is a first attempt (at this technological change)... Round two should be interesting.

I'd been using the VGA, thinking it can't be that far off from HDMI quality. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd almost be tempted to say that due to the observable quality difference between VGA and HDMI, that VGA was given a vestigial treatment on this projector.

Ditto TraderGordo's comments.

While I don't doubt the veracity of KBK's observations, perhaps the VGA cable and/or signal path is not up to par (I.e. KVM switch, VGA card used, etc?)

EDIT: I just read KBK's post above re: modded VGA ports on prior projectors. I'd assume KBK had a good signal path to the AE700 ;).

I am using a 10m BetterCables Ultra DB15-DB15 VGA cable (their top of the line before switching to the Silver Serpent marketing balony), and even running through a Belkin Pro 4 port KVM switch *plus* a Pi Engineering VGA dual output splitter (Y-SEE-Two) on the KVM output. When the AE700 is set to "Auto" in the Position menu, 1:1 pixel mapping is flawless.

KBK- are you referring to image sharpness, video motion smoothness, and/or color rendition on the VGA input vs HDMI?

Hm, reading this thread it seems like a LOT of people have the same problem I do: cropping of the picture when using the HDMI input. It seems like all those people with the problem in the middle of the thread somewhere, have not commented on it since - does this mean that you have solved the problem? How? Please post a solution, for those of us who haven't solved it yet =)

Btw. these are my settings, if anyone would care to comment if they look alright:

mode: normal
brightness: +8 (brings out a lot of shadow detail, compared to brightness 0!)
contrast: -2
colour temp: -1
sharpness: -2
colour: 0

I have a regular living room with big white walls, so I have some light reflection.. 95" high-contrast screen, 0.8 gain.
The blacks are really dissapointing - when the PJ is displaying a colourful picture it's awsome.. but when it's displaying a blackish picture, it's horrible...!
The black level, peek-a-boo scanlines and the cropping are my "only" problems with this supposedly state-of-the-art projector =)))

Akerman, it must be your room which is hurting your black levels so much. While my room is not perfect (white ceiling), coupled with the HCCV I'm really pleased with the contrast this unit produces. I doubt there's anything out there that can compete other than new sony, which has it's own set of problems (HDMI cropping of both horizonal and verticle, scanlines, dim picture). I wasn't expecting the blackest of blacks either though, just darker grey....i never bought the hype for either the panny or the sony's contrast ratings.

I've noticed that peek-a-boo scanlines are much reduced when using the HDMI input for HTPC, and with the 'sheen' that my HCCV screen has, I really can't notice them at all anymore. I haven't needed to adjust my flicker settings in over 70 hours bulb life, although it will flicker untill it warms up if you leave the unit in standby.

About the only issue I have with the panny now is with the cropping on HDMI, This is an awesome unit for the price.

akerman

Sounds like you've got multiple problems that are affecting your picture quality.

With a .8 gain screen, I can see you using a brightness of +8, but that also kills your blacks. Brightness is really a misnomer. It should be called black level. So pick your poison. Furthermore, with lots of reflections, your picture is getting the blacks washed out. That's why with this type of installation, you're better with a screen that has a narrower viewing cone to help negate the effects of off angle lighting that degrades your blacks. Basically, you've go the wrong screen.

I found the color setting for "normal" is set a bit high. If you haven't calibrated with one of the calibration disk, you might want to try -9.

As to the peek-a-boos, I found that when I'm sending the projector 1080i content (no up scaling) from my satellite receiver, I don't see the effect. Otherwise (DVD and 480i from satellite) I need to convert the signal to 720p before sending it to the projector. It appears that the AE700 doesn't upconvert that fast and sending it a 720p takes care of it. I've also noticed the peek-a-boos on my TV, a Sony GWIII. I had to really look for it. I think part of what we're seeing is the difference in what is almost non detectable on a 60" screen versus (in my case) 119" screen.

Argh - despite reading countless threads and posts before buying, I never came across any thread discussing viewing angles of the screens vs white walls - why is it that we always learn of these things AFTER the purchase =)
My current screen does have a 180 degree viewing angle, so that probably accounts for a lot of the reflection.

When I set the brightness, there was almost no difference in the black level between brightness 0 and brightness 8, that's why I chose the latter. Yesterday I watched the movie "saw" at brightness 0, and there were a lot of scenes that were just totally dark, and you did not know what was going on - I thought it was just part of the movie. Then I changed brightness to +8, and rewatched the scenes - now I could make out what was going on !

As I'm using a pc to feed the PJ, I can't switch between 1080i/720p/480p etc... besides I'm not sure that's where the problem lies for me, because I also spot the lines when playing 720p HDTV movies. I will try defocusing the image a bit, as suggested previously in this thread.

akerman

The AE700 is my first projector.

I think the first time around in front projectors is a learning experience as I was a bit surprised about some of this stuff too. Lucky for me, I'm very happy with my final result. (got the right screen. lol)

It also has made me more critical at the local theaters. Some have worst absolute blacks than the AE700 and only one that I've seen and only one was actually better.

Originally posted by Rgb
Ditto TraderGordo's comments.

While I don't doubt the veracity of KBK's observations, perhaps the VGA cable and/or signal path is not up to par (I.e. KVM switch, VGA card used, etc?)

EDIT: I just read KBK's post above re: modded VGA ports on prior projectors. I'd assume KBK had a good signal path to the AE700 ;).

I am using a 10m BetterCables Ultra DB15-DB15 VGA cable (their top of the line before switching to the Silver Serpent marketing balony), and even running through a Belkin Pro 4 port KVM switch *plus* a Pi Engineering VGA dual output splitter (Y-SEE-Two) on the KVM output. When the AE700 is set to "Auto" in the Position menu, 1:1 pixel mapping is flawless.

KBK- are you referring to image sharpness, video motion smoothness, and/or color rendition on the VGA input vs HDMI?

When I refer to the image fidelity of the HDMI vs. the VGA, I am speaking of all image components. Ie, noise floor, haloing, deliniaiton of color, banding, detail in the extreme peaks and blacks, etc. VB, etc. All tied together in any given PJ.

Before, the people in DVD's tended top look a bit 'sick', ie., their skin toes had a noticeable casting to them..mottled. This was due to the fact the the bit depth representation was all over the place. Chunky, in fact. The level of fine detail that was correctly presented went up by a huge notch, when I switched to HDMI. To me it was the difference between an unacceptable PJ and going to one that was watchable. Remember, I'm coming from a highly modified 720P DLP top- end unit.

The least that can be said, is that I am very critical about the image fidelity I get. THE PJ was tried on two different VGA ports (two different HTPCs), as well. I'll try it on Component progressive, on my Modded Panasonic RP-56, and see what I get. I'm not sure than there is a better progressive component port available to me at any price, as of yet. The Faroudja chip in the RP-56 I have is not quite current anymore, but the extensive modification of that entire port of the DVD player makes it very competitive with the best that is currently available at this time. Ie, I suspect I could spend $4-5k on a DVD player (progressive porting, remember!) and not get a better progressive component image. So that test will be valid. I don't have a 1080i port, except for that coming off the VGA port on my HTPC. I could use my VGA to progressive cable backward for once, if that is what the ATI cards do for 1080i output. I did do some switching on the VGA port once,and the unit said it was switched to a 1080i output via the VGA,and the PJ looked it. I'll have to go back and try it again. I usually use that cable for running progressive component into the X-1's I have lying about.

All I know is that..in this particular given example of a AE-700 PJ, and combined with my experiences in two completely different HTPC systems, and switching from VGA to the HDMI on either system, the image fidelity took a huge leap forward in the stability, detail, color, bit depth, delineation of detail, haloing, etc., etc., etc.

What I am saying is... that in my experience with this PJ and these two systems...that all artifacts of any kind where lowered in their levels of irritation by a very large factor.

Granted, 99% of the image was there beforehand ~ the same way all cars have four wheels. But the difference between individual car models can be great to the consumer. In the same way, the difference in image fidelity I saw could be important to a given consumer.

Akerman,

As others have mentioned, your brightness and contrast settings are killing your blacks.

The global BRIGHTNESS slider (in the PICTURE menu) adds or subtracts to R, G and B pixel levels across the board, from shadows to highlights (depending on the sign of its value: plus or minus). If it is greater than 0 then you're just adding a gray wash to everything. When the slider goes below 0 more of your dark grays are clipped to RGB=0,0,0. The best general policy - given a well-balanced video input signal (for a caveat see second-last paragraph), and a neutral screen - is to leave it at 0 and forget about it. Combining a BRIGHTNESS value of +8 with a -2 CONTRAST slider value is definitely one of the causes of your "blacks" and "contrast" problem. Your screen size, ambient light problems and picture mode may also be adding to these problems, also as others have mentioned.

There are other sliders, in the ADVANCE menu, that you can use to bring out more shadow detail. These are the three gamma settings, each applying to a zone of brightness - LOW, MID and HIGH - within the picture, which leave lower and upper brightness values of their respective zones anchored, but modify the values between them. If your picture is too murky, after you have set your BRIGHTNESS slider back to 0, try elevating the LOW gamma slider (it slides up to +3 maximum). This will bring out more shadow detail while leaving your darkest blacks anchored where they were originally. To smooth the transition to the mid tones, you might also experiment with a +1 or +2 MID gama slider setting.

These settings will vary with program material. Some (especially European) telecine transfers have what is called "setup" in their blacks. That is, the minimum black value (e.g. the Cinemascope bars top and bottom of the picture) is actually a very dark gray, about 5%. This is about the only time you would want to reduce your BRIGHTNESS slider a couple of points, i.e. when the "black" in the program isn't really a true, 0,0,0 "black". Including "setup" blacks is a rare phenomenon nowadays. Black usually means "black" in these modern times. Apart from that circumstance, leave the BRIGHTNESS slider at 0.

Beware that you can overdo the gamma tweaks. Too much fiddling - especially with the HIGH gamma slider - can lead to posterization in, for example, subtle sky, fog and overcast cloud scenes.

Originally posted by akerman
When I set the brightness, there was almost no difference in the black level between brightness 0 and brightness 8, that's why I chose the latter. Yesterday I watched the movie "saw" at brightness 0, and there were a lot of scenes that were just totally dark, and you did not know what was going on - I thought it was just part of the movie. Then I changed brightness to +8, and rewatched the scenes - now I could make out what was going on !

Did you ever consider that your pirate copy of "Saw" might just suck?

Originally posted by ianken
Did you ever consider that your pirate copy of "Saw" might just suck?

It's a DVD transfer, so it's not the movie which is the problem :)

Aussie Bob - if all brightness above 0 does is add a grey wash, how is it that I gained a lot of previously hidden shadow detail by increasing it? I will try to set it to 0, and see if I can achieve the same level of shadow detail playing with the gamma settings instead, as per your advice, thanks.

That's a good question Akerman. There's an equally good answer to it.

When you have brightness set to 0 there are some very dark grays ("shadow detail") that are difficult to distinguish from true blacks. As you raise the level of the BRIGHTNESS slider, these "shadow details" become lighter and you can see some of them more clearly next to the true blacks (now just darkish grays) on-screen next door to them.

Other reasons: bright highlights may cause your pupils to close down a little, your screen size vs. screen material may lead to a too-dim picture, both of these factors once again burying those subtle shadow details.

Add some or all of these factors together and you "lose" subtle shadow detail. It's still there... you just can't see it.

"But that's the whole point!" I hear you say, "What's the use of shadow detail being there, if I can't see it?"

Not much, I'll admit. Which is why I suggested using the gamma sliders to bring out more of the shadow detail, while leaving the true blacks as "true blacks".

In the real world, if you look at a bright landscape you'll lose shadow detail underneath rocks, bridges, chins etc. This is because your iris compensates for the brightest levels, sunlit surfaces, glare etc. and closes down a little. The same thing happens with a bright projector picture. You tend to lose perception of shadows to accommodate the highlights. The answer is to bring shadows and highlights closer together without just resorting to adding a "brightness offset" (via the BRIGHTNESS slider) to everything across the board. Hence: gamma controls.

If you use Photoshop, you'll know about the CURVES function. The AE700's gamma controls are very similar to this, although a lot "chunkier", having only very coarse adjustment potential i.e. six adjustment steps at each of three levels of brightness. If you haven't come across the Photoshop CURVES function, think of a rubber band anchored at one end at 0,0,0 (max black) and at the other at 255,255,255 (max white). Grab the rubber band in the middle and move it around. Blacks stay black and whites stay white because they're anchored. It's the values in-between (gray levels) that change. This is what the gamma sliders of the ADVANCE menu basically are meant to do: preserve your blacks and whites while allowing you to fiddle with the in-betweens. Do it right and you get a better picture.

In the end you have to make the decision: do you want shadow detail, but flat contrast and poor blacks? Or do you want good blacks with the (apparent) loss of some (but not all, if you use the gamma sliders) shadow detail?

Your screen and the picture mode (the "CINEMAs", NATURAL, VIDEO, NORMAL or DYNAMIC) will also heavily influence how you set your projector. Too big a screen, too fractional a screen material, or too dim a picture mode for that screen... and no amount of gamma or brightness tweaking will make your picture bright and punchy.

I've outlined a procedure that I use myself in posts above. It works for me. I use DYNAMIC picture mode severely tamed with a filter over the lens and compensation for DYNAMIC's garishness in the sliders. DYNAMIC is as bright as the sun compared to the (allegedly more accurate) CINEMA modes. But my screen is about 132 inches across and I use anything from 110 to 124 inches of that for projection (depending on my mood that day). I need all the brightness I can get.

I modify some of my settings depending on how the film looks. Sometimes a film is quite flat: I watched Chocolat last night and it was very flat and hazy (intentionally to a certain extent, to give a "dreamlike" look). It also had quite a lot of black "setup". So I wound my brightness slider back to -2, and took out some of the MID and LOW gamma. This kept the "dreamlike" look to the film, but took away the "washed-out" aspect of it. It's not something I'd normally do on my TV, as the TV picture is so small, the viewing angle so narrow compared to a large projected image, that pretty-well everything can sit comfortably with the particular brightness, color and contrast settings I worked out for it three years ago. With the large projected image that my eye couldn't take in all at one glance, "forgiveable" flaws become annoying, so I tweak them away, if possible.

As also mentioned in a post above, there is a lot of interference in levels, sharpness, contrast, gamma and so on, between the director's image destined for screening in a cinema and what you finally get on DVD in your home. Don't expect all DVDs to have been personally scanned by either the director or the lighting cameraman. Flunkies in dark video studios do much of this hack-work without referring to the director's notes. Sometimes the original (often laser disk 4:3) transfer that has been out in the market place for years is so bad that the director steps in and has his or her film re-printed and re-color-timed and then re-scanned by a top telecine operator. The new version of Goodfellas is a case in point. The old (double sided) version was pretty awful: grainy and muddy. The new (dual layer) transfer is one of the very best DVD transfers I have ever seen: sharp, but with hardly any sharpening halos; good blacks; bright; rich with visual detail... a joy to watch (if you don't mind the occasional shooting, bludgeoning and knifing and can put up with those flashy suits). "Chalk-and-cheese" compared to the original double-sided disk released many years ago. It's so good it's touted on the cover as a "New Digital Transfer". It needed different projector settings compared to the old version. I've given up hoping that one setting on my projector will accommodate both poor and brilliant transfers, the whims and preferences of telecine operators all over the world and the predilections of film corporation execs looking to make their films "punchier" by ordering artificial enhancement to a print that doesn't need it. I adjust my projector according to taste... not too much, but subtly, now that I've established my base parameter settings. And it's worth it.

Many have said here and in the original thread that it's possible to set up the AE700 to a near-perfect SMPTE or IREE "norm". They have claimed to have succeeded. True, but this shouldn't be the absolute Holy Grail. A crappy picture may well conform to recognized standards and still look crappy. The aim is to get your projector and viewing settings within sight of a base value and venture forth from there, film by film. There are many different methods of doing this, all of them listed here and in the main thread, and on other web sites. They are all alternate paths to the same destination, with each having their protagonists.

My motto is: "Get close, then tweak to taste." I say "to taste" because it would detract from enjoyment of the whole HT scenario to be toting a colorimeter and Avia test charts every time we spun up a different disk. We have to let our eyes be the final arbiters. A quick flick and its done.

Sounds to me like you haven't gotten to that plateau of satisfaction with your projector just yet. You're still unhappy and writing in for advice. That's what this thread is for. The AE700 will definitely pay back your investment, once you've established your basic comfort zone. It's pretty good value for money.

Good luck!

Originally posted by JimP
akerman

Sounds like you've got multiple problems that are affecting your picture quality.

With a .8 gain screen, I can see you using a brightness of +8, but that also kills your blacks. Brightness is really a misnomer. It should be called black level. So pick your poison. Furthermore, with lots of reflections, your picture is getting the blacks washed out. That's why with this type of installation, you're better with a screen that has a narrower viewing cone to help negate the effects of off angle lighting that degrades your blacks. Basically, you've go the wrong screen.

I found the color setting for "normal" is set a bit high. If you haven't calibrated with one of the calibration disk, you might want to try -9.

As to the peek-a-boos, I found that when I'm sending the projector 1080i content (no up scaling) from my satellite receiver, I don't see the effect. Otherwise (DVD and 480i from satellite) I need to convert the signal to 720p before sending it to the projector. It appears that the AE700 doesn't upconvert that fast and sending it a 720p takes care of it. I've also noticed the peek-a-boos on my TV, a Sony GWIII. I had to really look for it. I think part of what we're seeing is the difference in what is almost non detectable on a 60" screen versus (in my case) 119" screen.

I'm using Normal and -9 for color as well.

Hey all,

I bought my copy of DVE during the week and have been playing around with the basic calibration of the projector for XBOX games and movies.

I am currently using the XBOX as a DVD player also. (Which will be soon replaced with hopefully a denon dvd player).

My questions are:

1.For XBOX games, Iv been using the NORMAL picture mode and the following settings:

Contrast: 0
Brightness: approx -10 (i normally play games in the dark)
Colour: -5
Tint: depends on the game, but around +2
Sharpness: all the way down, -5 i think.

2.For movies, I generally use cinema 1 or 2, wihtout touching the calibration settings. Is there a better mode?

Give us some expert suggestions,

thanx

I like using the Video mode for XBox with the color toned down a little. I think Video Games color SHOULD be over the top.

Doe sthe xbox have progressive scan? I didn't think about it as a DVD player and I have been struggling with my pio eliete wondering how to get more component connections into it

Originally posted by mell02000
Doe sthe xbox have progressive scan? I didn't think about it as a DVD player and I have been struggling with my pio eliete wondering how to get more component connections into it

Yes there is an external HD module for the XBOX that supports up to 1080i.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/highdefinitionavpack.htm

The game must support HD as well as indicated on the box.

http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/HardwareManuals/High_Definition_AV_Pack.pdf

It looks like movie playback is 480i only though. Not sure if that is movies in games or DVD's.

Most games support at least 480p

http://www.hdtvarcade.com/xboxlist.htm

And that works for ingame movies as well as game engines.

Only PAL coded games and the odd US game won't work in progressive scan mode.

DVD Movie playback through the DVD module is only interlaced tho

I cannot get the DYNAMIC settings to linearize with Colorfacts, no matter how I manipulate the Projector controls. Dynamic is not usable..if you want linearity, in my opinion. Even with any filter. I tried some filters, No go. I can understand the temptation to use it, yes. As a matter of fact, I did use it, for the first few days. But, I found that a Colorfacts calibration of the NATURAL, and NORMAL settings ended up being the best compromise.

I'm shattered.

I don't know how appropriate this question is for this thread, but the other has become the "white flash thread" so I think my question was lost in the chatter over there.

I just mounted my AE700 to the ceiling this weekend and the bottom of the image is curved up in the middle by about a half to three-quarters of an inch on an 85" wide screen. Screen is 12 feet away. Neither top nor bottom of the image was noticeably curved when it was on a table.

On 2.35 ratio movies, where the bottom of the movie image is about 6-8" up from the bottom of the screen, the image still has a noticeable curve.

The lens is 8" below the screen top and roughly centered horizontally -- I think the projector overall is centered almost exactly, so the lens is shifted right by its offset in the case.

I've checked the horizontal, vertical and diagonal measurements of the blue screen and they are all within about 1/4" of their mate.

I've checked the screen surface using a 4' level. There's no noticeable curve in the screen.

Also, the projector is dramatically tilted up from back to front. Making the projector level results in huge amount of keystone. I didn't notice having a tilt when it was table-mounted. Does that seem normal? [Edit: it's tilted 1/2" inch back to front]

Do I have a mechanical problem in the lens?

I also posted this on the regular thread.

I just got off the Phone with Panasonic USA regarding the White Flash
and cropping issues. They took my number and told me they are working on the problems. If you live in the us call them at the following number and
report any problems you have. The more who call the better. They will
the problems reported are important.

For personalized assistance with this Panasonic Projector product please contact the Panasonic Projector Engineers at:



800-524-1448 then press OPTION 2 on the voice menu.

Regards,

Panasonic Technical Support

Originally posted by eme1
Hi guys,

I've had my ae700 for a little over two weeks now. I've been enjoying the picture but recently while doing the flicker tweak, steal tweaking, I noticed
something while tweaking the green. There are a bunch of pixels which are
different in color than the rest, they appear to be slightly brighter or lighter in color. I don't think these are dead pixels but I'm not sure. Next time you guys do a flicker tweak please check for this. You have to be really close to the screen to notice them at first. Please post any thoughts on what you guys think this is. Thanks.

eme1

Eme1, those could most definitely be stuck pixels. I had one stuck pixel (also green) right in the middle of my picture. It was there in all video sources, and it also showed up in the green flicker tweak screen as a slightly brighter green pixel than all of the others.

To test this, put up a static image that had a uniform background color that isn't green. If the pixels are stuck, you should be able to see them still green even though the background has no green in it. I first noticed my pixel while watching the Simpsons. I happened to pause the screen at one point and noticed the green pixel stuck right near the middle of the screen. Animation tends to have more uniform color backgrounds, so it is easier to see the pixel. I can also see it on my Tivo menus. However, I never notice it while watching a movie or playing games.

Still, I made a warranty claim and will be getting a new PJ sometime this week. I'm keeping the fingers crossed that this one will show up A-OK.

.

.

woops, sorry !

You can see my screenshots now in my gallery....

zxlr8,

Thanks for those screen shots of your desktop and text. That's exactly what I needed to convince me to buy the panny and use it as my main monitor. That shot of Farcy was nothing short of spectacular.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob


Many have said here and in the original thread that it's possible to set up the AE700 to a near-perfect SMPTE or IREE "norm". They have claimed to have succeeded. True, but this shouldn't be the absolute Holy Grail. A crappy picture may well conform to recognized standards and still look crappy. The aim is to get your projector and viewing settings within sight of a base value and venture forth from there, film by film. There are many different methods of doing this, all of them listed here and in the main thread, and on other web sites. They are all alternate paths to the same destination, with each having their protagonists.

My motto is: "Get close, then tweak to taste." I say "to taste" because it would detract from enjoyment of the whole HT scenario to be toting a colorimeter and Avia test charts every time we spun up a different disk. We have to let our eyes be the final arbiters. A quick flick and its done.
Good luck!

I agree, which is why I have provided some calibration settings that should get the average user to something close to d6500, and then tweak to taste from there. I plan to do the rest of the settings, but..dynamic seems to be useless for calibration. Any of the given settings I have provided should be transferable to the other inputs, like HDMI, and the component inputs, for the large part. The reason I end it with the caveat, is that when i transfer the settings from VGA calibration over to HDMI, there is a noticeable difference in the result. Not much, but noticeable.

Still shattered.

Aussie Bob, don't be. I have faith in you. :D

I would like to see how many people have made a direct comparison between VGA and HDMI inputs, preferably from a HTPC.

I suspect the difference to be so small that only a direct comparison will tell them apart.

I also suspect I will be happy with VGA, no cropping and no flashes but mainly because I'm not one of the extraordinarily anal. I'm only a little anal. :p

So in short, who has pulled their HDMI and plugged a VGA for comparison?

I did a comparison. The text on my desktop had some haloing with VGA, with the HDMI it was all but gone.

Akerman, was that all? Any other differences? What about dvd's and HDTV? Games?

I really don't intend to spend much time staring at my desktop so....

On the bottom of the secret menu, there are two default adjustment settings labeled as 525i level c and 625i level c:

FREEZE MSG OFF
PIC.SHIFT ON
RUNTIME PRT ON
FAN FULL MODE OFF
AUTO SETUP NORMAL
FLICKER ADJ
-DESK BLUE 25
-DESK RED 24
-DESK GREEN 24
525i LEVEL C
625I LEVEL C

Has anyone figured out what these two are for? Thanks!

I don't know smegger, when I finally got my HDMI cable working, I didn't want to go back to VGA =)

For all the talk about "white Flashes" being experienced I can only add that as a TWEEk perhaps all I had to do was switch from Denon 2910 to a Bravo D2..... Problem solved! on the other hand however I'm experiencing a "thin red line at the far right of the screen"...any one have that problem?

OK guys, let me get this straight. I should use VGA for my Bravo D2 and use the HDMI for my High Def?

Originally posted by ForzaMilan
on the other hand however I'm experiencing a "thin red line at the far right of the screen"...any one have that problem?

I had this when I tried to use the horizontal/vertical shift from the menu rather than physically moving the joystick. I had to put in a little shift the opposite way in both to completely eliminate it. I had red on one side and green at the top.

Update about calling in to Panasonic to report 'white flashes' and 720p/1080i cropping/masking problems

Originally posted by rwestley
I also posted this on the regular thread.

I just got off the Phone with Panasonic USA regarding the White Flash
and cropping issues. They took my number and told me they are working on the problems. If you live in the us call them at the following number and
report any problems you have. The more who call the better. They will
the problems reported are important.

For personalized assistance with this Panasonic Projector product please contact the Panasonic Projector Engineers at:



800-524-1448 then press OPTION 2 on the voice menu.

Regards,

Panasonic Technical Support

Alright people, update on these issues. I've made the call too, and the service rep that I spoke to said that prior to yesterday they hadn't really heard of the 'white flash' problem but since yesterday, they have had a couple of people call about it, so YES, DO CALL IN AND LET THEM KNOW. Otherwise they'll just consider it a small isolated problem and maybe won't do anything about it.

Even if you experience it but think you can 'live with' it, please call it in so at least they'll do something about it and help everybody out.

***Important note: When you call about the white flashes, also make sure to mention that there is the cropping/masking problem at 720p and 1080i. The tech I spoke to asked his product manager about it and said they "had never heard of this problem", so make sure to tell them about that too.

The more people report in about it, the greater the chance that they'll actually do something about it.

What a lemon this machine really must be!

I got great pictures out of it, but now I find I couldn't have because someone above reckons they can't ever be linear and 6500k.

I must have been dreaming all those 200+ hours of happy movie viewing.

Three Hail Marys and one Our Father to me for ever suggesting that enjoying a big, bright, beautiful DVD image projected on a ten-foot screen was what owning a projector was all about.

I realise now that I should be prepared to suffer for my sins and use Natural mode: murky, flat, and unwatchable except by Those-Who-Can-Prove-It's-Linear.

Masochists of The World, Unite!

Originally posted by bfahle
I had this when I tried to use the horizontal/vertical shift from the menu rather than physically moving the joystick. I had to put in a little shift the opposite way in both to completely eliminate it. I had red on one side and green at the top.

Thanks I'll give it a go later on tonight and I'll let ya know what happens!

Originally posted by jeffmcc
OK guys, let me get this straight. I should use VGA for my Bravo D2 and use the HDMI for my High Def?

Personally I forked out the extra dough for a 2/1 switcher; regardless of what has been said about dvd pq remaining just about the same....I personally found that to be the case....it's just not the same! using hdmi is just better, especially when watching newer flicks and superbit flicks... and don't take it from me I'm really quite ignorant about this stuff but I do have 15/20 vision and that my friend is the only basis to my opinion... go ahead try it and see what you think... no one can tell you what is better for you only you can decise once "you" see it!

Oh and one last thing.... woulnd't that be a waiste of your precious D2'd dvi output and processor??

Originally posted by Smegger
Aussie Bob, don't be. I have faith in you. :D

I would like to see how many people have made a direct comparison between VGA and HDMI inputs, preferably from a HTPC.

I suspect the difference to be so small that only a direct comparison will tell them apart.

I also suspect I will be happy with VGA, no cropping and no flashes but mainly because I'm not one of the extraordinarily anal. I'm only a little anal. :p

So in short, who has pulled their HDMI and plugged a VGA for comparison?

I've done exactly that, and now won't use VGA at all. Crap in comparison to HDMI. How much?

Two other folks in the Goo offices thought the PJ was ~~Crap~~ and wasted money. I was practically under fire for wasting money on such junk. The question was, how foolish are Digital projector users to think such a projected image was even worth owning? at all? For that much money? why not buy a x1 instead? much better!

THat's how bad it looked. This on the VGA input. With HDMI, they are changing their minds. I had to tell them that you AVS'ers aren't that dammed stupid, and the pot of gold had to be in there somewhere....and sure enough, it is on the HDMI port, and the component progressive is also very good.

It took me two days to find a HDMI to DVI cable in this particular city that didn't cost $300-250.00. How stupid do the cable companies think I am? digital audio can be affected by 'jitter' induced by a cable..but video? To that extent? $300.00 for a 6 foot HDMI cable? GO SUCK WIND!

VGA is lower on the quality totem pole than anything but s-video and composite video, on this projector. And that..is very, very strange. Must be a severely filtered, bandwidth limited, and badly amplified RGBHV (commonly known as VGA) port. Who knows, really.

Aussie Bob
Your posts prompted me to buy this thing. I don't understand you being shattered. But I do use Normal setting. I don't have a salmon filter yet, but it is not something I have ruled out due to linearity, etc. All suggested settings like KBK's are great starting points. Most of us don't have the equipment or knowledge to find a better place to start and then tweak to our liking or needs of our screen, etc. I use a silverstar, and my needs are different than others. It's a never endng process of tweaking. That's why we are here. I'm definately not satisfied yet. But I am very happy with what I have.

If your projector is ceiling mounted, please tell me if your projector case is level?


(Technically, is the plane of the case top perpendicular to the screen surface?)

When mine is, I have huge keystone. Wasn't true when table-mounted.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
Eme1, those could most definitely be stuck pixels. I had one stuck pixel (also green) right in the middle of my picture. It was there in all video sources, and it also showed up in the green flicker tweak screen as a slightly brighter green pixel than all of the others.

To test this, put up a static image that had a uniform background color that isn't green. If the pixels are stuck, you should be able to see them still green even though the background has no green in it. I first noticed my pixel while watching the Simpsons. I happened to pause the screen at one point and noticed the green pixel stuck right near the middle of the screen. Animation tends to have more uniform color backgrounds, so it is easier to see the pixel. I can also see it on my Tivo menus. However, I never notice it while watching a movie or playing games.

Still, I made a warranty claim and will be getting a new PJ sometime this week. I'm keeping the fingers crossed that this one will show up A-OK.

Thanks for the reply JamesAhall; your probably right. I have a bunch of these though, I just can't believe these are stock pixels (so many). I just wish someone else here can check their green pixels and see if they see any slightly brighter or lighter pixels. I can see them when I have my windows desktop up but I have to be really close (within approx. 2 feet). Thanks again.

Originally posted by KBK
I've done exactly that, and now won't use VGA at all. Crap in comparison to HDMI. How much?

Two other folks in the Goo offices thought the PJ was ~~Crap~~ and wasted money. I was practically under fire for wasting money on such junk. The question was, how foolish are Digital projector users to think such a projected image was even worth owning? at all? For that much money? why not buy a x1 instead? much better!

THat's how bad it looked. This on the VGA input. With HDMI, they are changing their minds. I had to tell them that you AVS'ers aren't that dammed stupid, and the pot of gold had to be in there somewhere....and sure enough, it is on the HDMI port, and the component progressive is also very good.

It took me two days to find a HDMI to DVI cable in this particular city that didn't cost $300-250.00. How stupid do the cable companies think I am? digital audio can be affected by 'jitter' induced by a cable..but video? To that extent? $300.00 for a 6 foot HDMI cable? GO SUCK WIND!

VGA is lower on the quality totem pole than anything but s-video and composite video, on this projector. And that..is very, very strange. Must be a severely filtered, bandwidth limited, and badly amplified RGBHV (commonly known as VGA) port. Who knows, really.

:rolleyes:

buy "normal" graphic card and vga cable, quality is superior to yuv, rgb, etc. and global picture quality is outstanding.

Don't despair, tsteves, I was being ironic.

My saying "...great pictures... 200+ hours of happy viewing..." should have been the giveaway. But there you go. I was more convincing than I thought in the sarcasm stakes.

It's a great projector. And I love it. And I love watching movies with it, linear or not. I wouldn't have said "Buy it" unless I was really impressed... and I am. I'm proud you took my advice, because it was good advice. I even like it on VGA (although I don't normally use it with VGA). Goo must have gotten some goo in their VGA connector (or they have a bum card). VGA's fabulous.

But I don't have a Silverstar.... don't get me into Silverstar Envy or I'll get shattered again.

Cheers,

A.B.

What length and brand of HDMI cables are people here using? Do you experience the white flashes with your cable?

I have a 10m DVI-HDMI cable and do experience the white flashes. I also occasionally drop sync, maybe once per six hours of viewing. All in all however, the PJ produces an amazing picture.

Originally posted by rwestley

report any problems you have. The more who call the better. They will
the problems reported are important.

For personalized assistance with this Panasonic Projector product please contact the Panasonic Projector Engineers at:



800-524-1448 then press OPTION 2 on the voice menu.

Regards,

Panasonic Technical Support

The guy who answered the phone definetley had the sound of "Oh no, not another call about overscan..." He assured me their engineers were aware of the problem and were working on it, they took my name and number to call when they have a resolution. Keep up the good work, and keep those phones ringing.

P.s. Never having seen the white flashes people are talking about, I did not comment on them.

I will be going to the CES show in a few weeks and I will try to talk to the
Engineers if I can. I do hope they resolve the few small problems discussed. The AE700 is a great projector with a few fixes it will be even
better. Enjoy your movies and HD sources and impress your friends with
this great toy over the holiday season.

Originally posted by eme1
Thanks for the reply JamesAhall; your probably right. I have a bunch of these though, I just can't believe these are stock pixels (so many). I just wish someone else here can check their green pixels and see if they see any slightly brighter or lighter pixels. I can see them when I have my windows desktop up but I have to be really close (within approx. 2 feet). Thanks again.

Eme, if you can see them on your windows desktop, no matter how close you have to get, then they are likely stuck pixels. You should NEVER see a green pixel somewhere that there isn't green.

I know that at least one other 700 owner had a bunch of stuck green pixels as well,and he said that his was getting worse as he used it. I only had the one pixel stuck, but it seems that for whatever reason, the pixels on the 700 seem to get stuck green when they fail.

Stuck pixels used to be a pretty common problem in LCD technology, but they are supposedly pretty rare on the 700, to the point that the dealers aren't even checking them before sending them out because they have had very few failures.

If I were you, I would do something about it sooner rather than later. Panasonic has a pretty good DOA (projector broken on arrival) policy as long as you do something about it quickly after you get it. I don't know what their timeframe is, but I know it extends at least a month out or so. It might be more--I would contact your dealer and find out.

I know that my Panasonic dealer replaced mine with no hassle. They had UPS pick up the broken one and as soon as they had confirmation of the pick-up, sent me out a new one. I was only without the projector for about 5 days. I just got the new one last night, and it appears to be completely free of stuck pixels, so I am very happy.

Aussie Bob
First I have to say "thank you", since I agree "It's a great projector. And I love it. "
KBK (mr goo) is the creator of "paint on" and finished screens of very high quality, as well as the ultimate X1 mod hacker and has attained almost mythical status on these forums.
Silverstar envy is bad. It is just another screen that you need to adjust for. I think it's much more difficult to deal with than matte white. I'm sure you would do this much better than me.

Originally posted by Schmo
What length and brand of HDMI cables are people here using? Do you experience the white flashes with your cable?

Using a 10m DVI-HDMI + 1.5m DVI-DVI extender cable from Molex. Have no problems running from a R9700 gfx card. Molex cables are priced at a friendly level too..

"Silverstar... is just another screen that you need to adjust for."

Adjust?

More adjusting?

More money?

Shattering.

C'mon Bob, if I knew I'd have an ae700 with lots of light output, I would have used a plain white screen. Once the money is spent, no sense in complaining. I got it for an X1 with a filter. If I could easily and cheaply get a pink salmon filter I would try it tommorow. When I looked for the suggested one, it was free, but shipping anytime this century would cost $30. Maybe I can find one at CES?

$30 to ship a 1x3x3 inch swatch does sound a little pricey. I've picked up several here in Australia (i.e. not Lee Filters' home country) for nothing. 3 from a pro lighting shop in suburban Sydney and 2 from the local Panavision office. Both companies said, "Take as many as you like. They're giveaways".

For fun, I tried removing the filter and tweaking. Just couldn't get the blacks as rich as with the filter. It wasn't a subtle difference, either. The filter works.

Also had a look at the Y waveform (I use Y-U-V). It's the same as a video waveform except the lines are 32 microseconds long instead of 64 microseconds (this is PAL).

It was interesting to look at what the various DVD replay modes do to the signal (Sony 575 DVD player). "Standard" mode outputs the entire signal within the 0.7 volt black-to-white boundaries. "Dynamic II" (on the Sony) pops the signal up to about 0.9 volts. Other modes vary come in between these two extremes (and I suspect affect gamma too). The projector - using its own "DYNAMIC" mode - really clips the whites there. Even using the Sony's "Standard" signal, the AE700's "Dynamic" clips the top 5% or so to pure white. This means that anything very bright (edges of white shirts, lampshades, white collars etc.) clips out.

So I inputted the signal into a gizmo I manufacture that has a video gain amplifier in it. I was somewhat surprised that it worked fine with progressive 32 microsecond lines (not so surprised when I reviewed the circuit diagram... it was a good design, even though I say so myself). The gain amplifier brought the brightest whites from the Sony "Standard" mode down to about 95%, and then "Dynamic" on the projector handled them fine, reproducing ALL the highlight detail.

As the gain amplifier is uniform, the grays and blacks were reduced in value as well, but the AE700's GAMMA functions brightened them up a bit, without allowing the whites to be clipped.

In summary, I reduced amplitude of the video signal (externally) and then upped the gamma (internally) to compensate in the mid and darker shades. It worked beautifully.

Now I can withdraw one of my main caveats with the AE700's DYNAMIC mode: that it clipped whites. It no longer does this, but I still have a brighter picture than in any of the other projector picture modes. Color seemed unaffected, as I am using component video. In short: a free lunch.

I might just isolate the amplifier circuit from my gizmo onto a prototype board and add a soft limiter plus a gamma circuit plus a couple of pots to it and bolt it to the projector stand I use. It certainly improved the projected picture substantially: from very good to excellent.

I know, I know... it seems a shame - almost like cheating - to use an external device to maximise PQ. But, in their wisdom, Panasonic have made the DYNAMIC setting a little too harsh on the upper end of the brightness scale. Toning it down between DVD player and projector counter-acts this over-enthusiasm from the Panasonic designers and keeps the brightness levels pretty-well intact. An adjustable DYNAMIC mode would have been nice, but in their wisdom Panasonic have given us all-or-nothing-at-all, necessitating an external processing amplifier to provide the continuous adjustment. Some of Panasonic's available tweaks are quite crude.

It was also interesting to see that several (randomly selected) movies have a significant amount of "setup" in their blacks, even in the supposedly "pure" black bars in Cinemascope productions. One movie I looked at had about 0.05 volts - roughly 7% - of setup. You're never going to get the blackest blacks possible with 7% added to everything, including the black bars. Perhaps I might add a pedestal adjustment to my Y-U-V proc amp? Of course, unless I use an oscilloscope to view the waveform every time, I'd only be guessing... trying not to get too anal about PQ is quite difficult at times. Perhaps this is where the AE700's "BRIGHTNESS" slider might come in handy after all.

On the non-uniform coloration across the screen: I have it too. It's quite noticeable in B&W movies. I ameliorated this by reducing RED contrast to minus-12 in the ADVANCE menu. My wife (who has perfect, reference quality color vision) said it mostly went away after this.

Lastly, had a chance to view a movie in a local HD post-production studio here in Sydney. They have just purchased a Barco 2048x1024 professional theatrical projector for over A$150,000 (missed the model number, sorry). They use a 5 metre white Stewart screen (about 16 feet wide on the long axis). My God! What a stunning picture it produced in HD (I had to promise them I wouldn't name the movie, as it hasn't been released yet). As far as my uncultured eyes were concerned: perfect in every way, at least the image. The movie itself was pretty awful, but it sure looked good through that projector.

I picked up one Lee-Filters swatch and one from another brand which I forgot the name of at the moment. They came from a Dallas theater lighting and costume store (the performance art kind of theater).

Don't forget, the picture will be quite pink until you tweak the reds away in the ADVANCE menu. Try RED CONTRAST minus-12 first, with CONTRAST and BRIGHTNESS at 0 first. Feed the pj with an unenhanced signal from the DVD player also. DYNAMIC for a brighter image. You can just stick the filter to the front of the lens as a try-out. It'll cover the whole picture area.

Its too bad we don't have a tweak summary thread or document that acts like a tweak guide and walks people through the precise steps needed for all the tweaks in turn, and only that - kind of like the level of detail describing the VB tweak - so it could provide "one stop shopping" to all the current tweaks. As this thread will grow and grow it takes more and more time to stay current and find all the tweaks inside. (The main thread is a monster at roughly 185 pages) I am still waiting to see how they are going to fix the oustanding problems with this pj before buying it, (so I don't have to send my unit back in.)

Liowik's thought is great. It would be great if there is a comprehensive summary of all tweaks from everyone's experience/experiments.

It would be nice if somebody in the states would tell me where to get the filter somewhat quickly and cheaply!?

I suspect there was something abnormal/defective in your VGA experience. No idea if it is your particular projector, the vga source, or the interface between the two. I would still like to hear from at least one or two other people that have done an A/B from DVI to VGA. Does anyone know if the VGA & DVI ports on radeon cards are active simultaneously? This would make the comparison easy.

As for the requests for a consolidated tweak list -- I started this on the first page of this thread. I will add the more involved picture/color tweaks as soon as I get some time to test them.


Originally posted by KBK
I've done exactly that, and now won't use VGA at all. Crap in comparison to HDMI. How much?

Two other folks in the Goo offices thought the PJ was ~~Crap~~ and wasted money. I was practically under fire for wasting money on such junk. The question was, how foolish are Digital projector users to think such a projected image was even worth owning? at all? For that much money? why not buy a x1 instead? much better!

THat's how bad it looked. This on the VGA input. With HDMI, they are changing their minds. I had to tell them that you AVS'ers aren't that dammed stupid, and the pot of gold had to be in there somewhere....and sure enough, it is on the HDMI port, and the component progressive is also very good.

It took me two days to find a HDMI to DVI cable in this particular city that didn't cost $300-250.00. How stupid do the cable companies think I am? digital audio can be affected by 'jitter' induced by a cable..but video? To that extent? $300.00 for a 6 foot HDMI cable? GO SUCK WIND!

VGA is lower on the quality totem pole than anything but s-video and composite video, on this projector. And that..is very, very strange. Must be a severely filtered, bandwidth limited, and badly amplified RGBHV (commonly known as VGA) port. Who knows, really.

Thanks TraderGordo for consolidating the important major tweaks!

Guys,

I am past the 100hr mark and would like to calibrate the AE700. What is the method in calibrating the AE700 if I were to do it myself (making the detector/buy luxmeter, get spreadsheet (need source), make readings, and adjust settings)?

The AE700 has gamma (H,M,L), constrast (R,G,B), brightness (R,G,B) settings. How do you adjust the settings to correct the color temp ? Is it by trial-n-error (very time consuming), or do you just adjust one set of parameters (gamma, contrast,brightness)?

It would be nice if someone can write up a howto procedure for calibrating the AE700. I've read the other calibration for other projectors but still don't know how to adjust the parameters to correct the color temp.

Any input is appreciated.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
I suspect there was something abnormal/defective in your VGA experience. No idea if it is your particular projector, the vga source, or the interface between the two. I would still like to hear from at least one or two other people that have done an A/B from DVI to VGA. Does anyone know if the VGA & DVI ports on radeon cards are active simultaneously? This would make the comparison easy.


Yes, they are active at the same time (at least on my 8500). Doing a blind A/B comparison, I would have to say the DVI does look noticeably better. I would not qualify the difference as night/day, but I am not a videophile by any means so take it with a grain of salt. I believe I had the color settings the same on both inputs. I am using a 5 meter 12$ DVI-HDMI cable.

Nate

hi...I have the pj for over as week and run over 50 hours already..no VB at all...but my issue is diffirent..there is a small scratch interior of the focus glass..it is like half inches..i can't see a negatif effect of it in the picture...it is a brand new product ..is it normal...? what should i do please hel me
thanks

hayatiakbas,

More than likely, its a speck of lint that resembles a scratch.

Personally, if it doesn't affect picture quality, I'd leave it alone.

hi Jimp...Thank you...but i did something terrible..I was playing with the focus and i unscrewed it...so I cleaned the interier or the focus lenses...scratch remains though...it doesn't effect the quality....there was some dust inside the lenses...cleaned it up...what do you guys do to clean the dust..its gone now..but i feel bad with opening the focus...it can be unattached right from the zoom...i did ikt but i feel regretful...

hayatiakbas

I use an antistatic cloth that's used in the photo industry to clean lenses and negatives. Main advantage is once you clean it, it doesn't attract more dust for a while.

thats what i used as well...but i opened it..its ok yea?
thanks..

OK here's a quick rundown of my setup

AE700 in Cinema3 tweaked with AVIA

Samsung 938 DVD player (aka 931 in the US) DVI out -> cheapie Supra branded DVI-HDMI adaptor -> HDMI input of AE700

938 running in 1080i mode.

I definitely noticed the VB after leaving the unit on standby overnight but I had to be looking really hard for it. And to be honest, I really wasn't able to pay attention to the show in order to keep a lookout for the VBs. So I could turn off the mains power, or I could let the unit warm up long enough for the VB to slowly disappear.

But definitely not a showstopper in my book.

So now, onto peekaboo-scanlines...

I have no clue exactly what this was, BUT I did notice what looked like deinterlacing artefacts in some scenes, primarily in the brief instant when subtitles changed.

Since I figured it was deinterlacing artefacts, I decided to turn off Cinema Reality mode, which is supposed to be Panny's special deinterlacing circuitry. As it turned out, I was right.. no more suddenly visible scanlines.

Hope this helps...

Your mileage may vary...

Woof Woof

Are you in a PAL country?

Originally posted by JimP
Woof Woof

Are you in a PAL country?

Sorta.. but it is a little complicated :)

TV broadcasts are in PAL

But because of our proximity to Japan, we get loads of NTSC stuff. LD players in the past were all NTSC.

DVDs are coded in Region 3 in NTSC.

My AE700 is from Japan, but oddly enough, I got a SCART connector in the back.

Does it matter?

Woof Woof

Seems like I read in the monster 700 thread that in PAL land, the peek-a-boos don't show up as much due to some difference between PAL and NTSC specs.

I'm in NTSC land myself. What I found is Peek-a-boos are diminished by scaling and deinterlacing the signal from 480i to 720p before sending it on to the projector. Its as though the AE700's deinterlacer can't keep up with vertical movement. ....and when you think about it, that's exactly what a deinterlacer is suppose to do; interpolate the missing lines of information from existing lines. So if you're momentarily seeing the scan lines during vertical movement, then that should be telling us that the deinterlacer is not doing something right.

I just mounted my projector on a shelf about 6-8" below a drop ceiling. Does anyone think this is too close to the ceiling or should I be alright? I run the projector in low lamp mode.

Originally posted by Woof Woof
....
I definitely noticed the VB after leaving the unit on standby overnight but I had to be looking really hard for it. ...

I think it was on PJ central that I read the fan would run in standby mode and the only way to turn it off was to unplug the unit. Did I misread something?

If I have this in my HT will the fan always be running?

Thanks,

Originally posted by JimP
Woof Woof

Seems like I read in the monster 700 thread that in PAL land, the peek-a-boos don't show up as much due to some difference between PAL and NTSC specs.

I'm in NTSC land myself. What I found is Peek-a-boos are diminished by scaling and deinterlacing the signal from 480i to 720p before sending it on to the projector. Its as though the AE700's deinterlacer can't keep up with vertical movement. ....and when you think about it, that's exactly what a deinterlacer is suppose to do; interpolate the missing lines of information from existing lines. So if you're momentarily seeing the scan lines during vertical movement, then that should be telling us that the deinterlacer is not doing something right.

Sounds about the same thing I noticed too, except it was just obvious with the subtitles which do switch very quickly (suppose it is similar to a very fast changing scene).

Have you tried disabling Cinema Reality mode in Options?

Does it help remove the peekaboo scanlines?

I have seen various deinterlacing modes on my Sony CRT and to be honest, there isn't a universal mode which will look good on all material. Some look better with static scenes like with text, others with fast moving ones. Maybe the Panny Cinema Reality mode works better with some scenes but the peekaboo scanlines could very well be an artefact of that processing mode.

Originally posted by Tweakophyte
I think it was on PJ central that I read the fan would run in standby mode and the only way to turn it off was to unplug the unit. Did I misread something?

If I have this in my HT will the fan always be running?

Thanks,

I have no idea where you got that impression.. BUT if it really happened, you would think that you would hear it first in this forum, where even the most minutiae of problems would be highlighted tenfold!!? :P

If it did happen, it must be a seriously dodgy set. Go return it or something.

Well, I did it, ordered the HDMI cable so I can do an A/B comparison myself. I REALLY didn't want to pay the big bucks for a 10m HDMI cable, but the suspense would otherwise kill me. I'll post my results as soon as I have them (3-4 days?).

I decided to go with the ULTRALINK just to be absolutely sure I have the best possible results. Also got the ULTRALINK HF-DM HDMI Female-to-DVI-D Male Adapter.

Cheapest place I could find these was:
http://shopmustardseed.com/
coupon code for 5% off order total:5f6a6c

Normally I would never spend a lot of money on hyped cables. And I subscribe to the belief that generally cables and power supplies, etc. only produce psychosomatic results.

But in this case, these cables have been tested, and most HDMI cables cannot deliver 1080p without loss (yea, I know the AE700 only does 720P). If you want to read more, search AVS for posts from avs special member "wm" keyword "ultralink". Most people mistakenly assume that because it is digital it's on or off, it works or it doesn't. This is a myth. All HDTV viewers know what noise looks like.

I accidentally left it on standby last night and huge VB when I woke up this morning. Kinda freaked me out. I almost had none before. To make it go away would it be better to leave it on and let it warm up or just turn it off completely?

Also, it takes so long to go into standby, I usually start doing something else and then almost forget about. Is it ok to just switch it off completely without going into standby first or could that damage it?

EDIT: ok, i just read in the manual that this is a no-no.

Hey guys

With the switching off at the mains

Do you guys also switch the projector off at the back? The I/O switch?

Or just leave it in Standby (red light on) and turn it off at the mains?

Thanks

Why can't you just press the power button on the remote control? That sucks you'd have to shut off all power to the unit.

It hasn't answered my question - I read that first

The question is

BEFORE You turn it off at the wall - do you turn off the projector with the I/O switch?

Or do you just wait for the fan to cool down and then BANG... turn it off at the wall?

Cool

I was just wondering if its ok to turn off the projector at the powerpoint without turning it off on the back of the unit

(OF Course I always wait for the fan to stop after turning it off with the remote)

aurz

Since this is suppose to be a tweaks thread, lets delete the last few non tweak post to keep this into turning into one of those 170 page monster threads that you cant find anything in. To do this, click on edit on your post, then put a check mark in the box on the left then click delete

Thanks

I use to have constant white flashes with my 25ft pacific HDMI cable on 720p and 1080i. I replaced it with a 35ft monster cable and have had only one flash since. I bigger problem now brewing. The picture looks like there is someone blowing smoke across the screen. Or it could be better describe that it looks like when you put oil in water or when you look across a long strech of highway during a 95 degree day. It's kind of wavey looking. Now here's the thing, it starts at the top left hand of the screen and it's the most concentrated point of this. It then gets less throughout the screen. Almost like there is a hole in the optics and the heat comes across the lens. I just realized that it does come and go. I'm still trying to figure out a pattern. It doesn't affect the picture but it is very noticeable during any sort of light or white colored scenes. Has anybody ever heard of this or seen this? I still love this projector and I wouldn't trade it for world. It happens on any source and if I change the fan speeds or desk to ceiling.
I also see it during the flicker tweak settings. It starts about where the 4:3 ratio would start on a 16:9 screen(not related). It waves down to about the bottom 1/3 of the screen and curls back up to the right side of the screen.
71 hrs. and shelf mounted. It sits into an enclosed shelf but I have it sitting as far forward as possible so that the venting isn't affected. Please help!!!

Well the obvious question is are you absolutely sure the venting isnt affected ? relocate it for a test and see if it repeats the problem.

Problem with Progressive scan

Have P700 , counter on 50hrs. In order to improve PQ, I bought new Philips DVP 720SA, having Component output. the DVD player has progressive scan activation via soft menu. Whenever I activate it , my PQ becomes worse ! I get vertical band that seems to be linked to RGB; It only appears clearly in some moments - mostly only perceiveable as 'ghost/shadow' lines. I connected the 2 machines via the 3 cable component, and had to set the DVD player fro, RGB to YUV output.
Maximum output i seem sto get is 625p in teh menu.

A bt sad about this as I bought new DVD player especialy. Picture in non-porgressive i good, and only rarely some VB (i think it is VB, vertical lines almost not visible that create bands over screen)

Questions to the forum
1) has anyone perceived this problem with progressive scan ?
2) is there a kind of FAQ on how to handle/setup PJ or Pana700 for newbies ?
3) what is best signal choice to get best quality ? hoa can I get to one of the AA resolution settings refered to in the manual, without resorting to putting a computer in my living room?

Merry X-mas viewing

John
Newbie from Brussels

jvdw, you might want to re-check all of your component connections to make sure each cable is matching output from the DVD player to input on the PJ and everything is tight.

Do you have another progressive source to test (such as satellite or cable box, or another DVD player)? It is possible that the new DVD player output is defective in progressive mode.

Originally posted by aurz
It hasn't answered my question - I read that first

The question is

BEFORE You turn it off at the wall - do you turn off the projector with the I/O switch?

Or do you just wait for the fan to cool down and then BANG... turn it off at the wall?

You can do it either way; it's the same effect. The I/O switch kills the power right as it enters the unit...same as unplugging the cord or cutting off the power outlet with a wall switch. You must wait until the fan stops (Standby begins when fan stops) to kill the power whichever way you want to (back panel I/O switch, switched wall outlet, power surge strip, unplugging, etc.)

do you know how long before the fan stops? i'm getting a ups installed since we're in a new area and power goes off frequently

Haven't measured it but it's about two or three minutes until the fan shuts off.

Does anyone else feel like the fans during the cool down cycle don't stay on long enough? To the touch, the projector still seems to be too warm?

Does anyone know if there is a way to extend the duration of the cooldown cycle?

HMenke,

Relating to if I am using the right cable, it is a color coden component cable. It is 10m long, but if it was down to a bad connection surely the non-progressive mode would be as bad then , while it is not - there i can only see VB (like slight brightness differences) very ocasionally ?

Johan

Originally posted by Woof Woof

I have no clue exactly what this was, BUT I did notice what looked like deinterlacing artefacts in some scenes, primarily in the brief instant when subtitles changed.

Since I figured it was deinterlacing artefacts, I decided to turn off Cinema Reality mode, which is supposed to be Panny's special deinterlacing circuitry. As it turned out, I was right.. no more suddenly visible scanlines.


By turning that off you also loose inverse telecine. But what you are seeing is indeed the result of the video processor loosing cadence lock. I've ONLY seen it on film based interlaced material but on my system it is so infrequent as to be a non issue. Watched all 4 hrs of the "Return of The King EE" last week and not a single incident of it.

Originally posted by jvdw
HMenke,

Relating to if I am using the right cable, it is a color coden component cable. It is 10m long, but if it was down to a bad connection surely the non-progressive mode would be as bad then , while it is not - there i can only see VB (like slight brightness differences) very ocasionally ?

Johan

You may be right, it is hard to say exactly what the problem might be. For troubleshooting the best approach is to use a process of elimination. I thought the best place to start is the cable and connections - because they can have mechanical defects.

Originally posted by KBK
I've done exactly that, and now won't use VGA at all. Crap in comparison to HDMI. How much?

Two other folks in the Goo offices thought the PJ was ~~Crap~~ and wasted money. I was practically under fire for wasting money on such junk. The question was, how foolish are Digital projector users to think such a projected image was even worth owning? at all? For that much money? why not buy a x1 instead? much better!

THat's how bad it looked. This on the VGA input. With HDMI, they are changing their minds. I had to tell them that you AVS'ers aren't that dammed stupid, and the pot of gold had to be in there somewhere....and sure enough, it is on the HDMI port, and the component progressive is also very good.

It took me two days to find a HDMI to DVI cable in this particular city that didn't cost $300-250.00. How stupid do the cable companies think I am? digital audio can be affected by 'jitter' induced by a cable..but video? To that extent? $300.00 for a 6 foot HDMI cable? GO SUCK WIND!

VGA is lower on the quality totem pole than anything but s-video and composite video, on this projector. And that..is very, very strange. Must be a severely filtered, bandwidth limited, and badly amplified RGBHV (commonly known as VGA) port. Who knows, really.
I'm sorry but this is grandstanding rubbish!

I have my PJ connected via a 15m VGA cable, and have sampled the sheer delights of HDTV movies using it. IMO, the image I experienced is movie nirvana! At closer inspection the image holds up perfectly with unblurred well registered pixels clearly differentiated.

I suggest that you look seriously into the DAC on your VGA out device, it sounds to me like a rough video card. I can catagorically state VGA is incredible when setup correctly!

HDMI/DVI may well be better, but I would wajer the differences are nowhere near as 'night and day' as is being suggested in this thread!

Originally posted by muterobert
I'm sorry but this is grandstanding rubbish!

...HDMI/DVI may well be better, but I would wajer the differences are nowhere near as 'night and day' as is being suggested in this thread!

mute -- I suspect you are right. I'm still surprised no one has posted their experiences with "REAL" A/B comparisons yet. As I've said, I ordered the HDMI cable last week and will be doing extensive A/B testing of still shots and video to compare the two (also to see how bad croping is on HDMI, not to mention the infamous white flash). I'll also be sure to do some scientific blind study as well (i.e. If the differences are substantial, then both myself and other observers should be able to identify the HDMI source as superior without actually knowing the source).

I'll post my experience later this week. I too am very happy with VGA right now (35 foot cable). But since I haven't seen HDMI yet, I don't know if it could get even better.

Me three.

The statement that "AVS'ers aren't that damned stupid" implies that the many using VGA are in fact "stupid" and that by corollary KBK is a genius who has found the pot of gold. Thanks KBK for defending those of us for whom stupidity seems to be a way of life, but no thanks.

Too much Goo sniffing methinks, all those vats full of paint generate a lot of fumes, or perhaps just a bad VGA card in the company PC.

I have noticed in the last couple of movies I have watched that the "occurrence rate" of white flashes seems to have increased. While watching "Donnie Darko" last night, I had five flashes during the movie. Also, after watching that I put in a one hour long DVD and had two more. In a 2 1/2 to 3 hour span I had 7 flashes. For the first time, my wife asked me about them. Before, it was happening on average about 2 or 3 times per 2 hour movie. I have approximately 230 hours on the PJ and I certainly hope that the white flashes do not continue to increase. The HDMI connection looks great hooked up to my Panny S97 DVD player and obviously I can't upconvert when using component. The whole HDMI issues have me very frustrated as I also have a dead HDMI port out of my HDTivo satellite receiver. Is anyone else experiencing "increased" white flashes as time goes on?

Jetucker,

I saw a similar curve on the bottom of my image when I mounted my pj from the ceiling. It was caused by using too much lens shift. Try reducing the lens shift and see if that remedies the problem.


Radio

Mine seems too hot to turn off power when the fan stops running. I find I generally wait a few minutes after the fan goes off before I turn it off. This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever, since the fan has stopped turning, and leaving the power on is not going to cool it down anymore.
I assume I am subconsciously checking how long it takes for flicker tweak settings to go whacky.
What is disconcerting is that when they do go whacky, and vb gets awful, I have to use different flicker tweak settings to make them "good" again. I can't just dial in the same settings from last time.

Originally posted by tsteves
Mine seems too hot to turn off power when the fan stops running. I find I generally wait a few minutes after the fan goes off before I turn it off. This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever, since the fan has stopped turning, and leaving the power on is not going to cool it down anymore.
I assume I am subconsciously checking how long it takes for flicker tweak settings to go whacky.
What is disconcerting is that when they do go whacky, and vb gets awful, I have to use different flicker tweak settings to make them "good" again. I can't just dial in the same settings from last time.

How many hours do you have on it yet? Mine seemed to settle down a lot after I passed 100 hours. I am at 250 now and the flicker settings are relatively stable. I might go up or down one notch on one color occasionally, not multiple notches on multiple colors like when it was new.

tsteves,
To me it does make sense that you can't go back to the original flicker tweak settings. The fact that people need to turn the power off to their projectors, instead of leaving it on standby, proves that the electrical current is causing, not nessecarily damage, but residual ware on the components or panels of the pj which is causing VB. You see this type of electrical ware on so many different levels of technology, the only reason it is emphasized here is because it is put into a visual state.

To me if it was something that you could adjust once and never have to touch it again it would be an engineering flaw that could easily be fixed by panasonic.

Just my opinion,
Radio

I'm having problems with the DVI/HDMI connection from my HTPC to the AE700. I am unable to get my vid card sync'd upon reboot to the PJ. Here are the details:

I am able to sync just fine if I boot the PC with the DVI/HDMI unplugged from the vid card. I can switch the resolution to 1280x720 at 60 hz, then plug in the DVI adapter and the PJ will sync and look just fine.

If I reboot with both the VGA monitor and DVI connected, the displays automatically boot into a 1280x480 extended desktop mode. If I boot with just the AE700 connected it boots into 640x480 mode - and then doesn't give me the option of changing resolutions; it is the only resolution selectable. I then have to disconnect the DVI, reboot and the monitor comes up as 1280x720. I can then plug in the DVI and it works -- and that's the only way I can get it to work.

I've tried the "Force 720p mode" and that doesn't help at all. I'm also not able to deselect the extended desktop selection on the diplay properties - settings menu. It is greyed out. I can't seem to "clone" the display.

Has anyone else had this problem? It seems that for whatever reason, the vid card is thinking the ae700 is capable of only diplaying 640x480.

Here are my system specs:
P4 2.4ghz hyperthreaded
768 ddr800 ram
ati radeon 9600se 128mb
Latest catalyst drivers installed (downloaded/installed today)
DVI-HDMI adapter
15' HDMI cable

By the way, I can sync just fine using the VGA connection but I've noticed a slight improvement by using HDMI, so obviously I'd like to get this working.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Borg, Rage3DTweak.

Abdul,
I failed to mention that I tried rage3d tweak too. I had to uninstall it because it was causing more problems.

Borg, Powerstrip.

Abdul, tried that too. I sent you a PM.

Anyone else know why this might happen? I know I don't need any special timings or refresh rates as I can get it working by having the DVI disconnected during bootup, then connecting the AE700 after XP loads. There seems to be some handshake going on during boot which tells the vid card that the ae700 can only display 640x480.

Borg,
I just had this happen to me a few days ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487202). I solved the problem by installing Powerstrip and using the 1280x720 custom resolution for DVI/HDMI derived. After that the DVI connection never reverted back to any other resolution after reboot. BTW, the fix even worked after uninstalling Powerstrip.

Hello All,
This is my first post, I've been lurking around for a couple of years, and bought my first projector based on the info in the main AE700 topic. Now that I've had it for a couple of months, I'm more interested in tweaking it.

This is my experience to date. Vertical Bands were apparent when I first turned the projector on, but I was able to minimize them by doing the flicker tweak. I can switch off power to the mains, but left it on out of curiosity. Like some people have reported, I noticed that the VBs disappeared after running for thirty minutes or so. They became less noticeable with time (leaving the projector continuously in stand-by) and now that I have nearly 200 hours on the unit, there are no vertical bands at all. I then moved the projector from a stand on the floor and mounted upside down on the ceiling. VBs returned, and when I went in to the tweak, I found that there is a flicker tweak for the inverted ceiling mount position. You probably all know this, but I've never seen it mentioned. The Peek-a-boos which were quite obvious initially are still there, but harder to see now.

No flashes, but I'm watching component through a fifty-foot cable.

I checked out all of the Projection Modes and agree that Cinema 1 is the most accurate. The higher output modes are definitely bluish. One of the German sites recommended the Video mode for best output and contrast, so I used a Cokin filter mount and a CC30r recommended by another German site to bring the color into line. The color was greatly improved and light output over Cinema 1 measured with a spotmeter was 50% greater. The contrast ratio measured with the same meter (assuming I did it right) was ~1000:1 in Cinema 1 and ~2000:1 in Video with the CC30r filter. The picture is still slightly bluish, so if I had to do it again I would buy a CC40r, but since the resin filters are $30+ each, I'm going to play with the adjustments a bit more.

The screen brightness at 100 IRE in Video mode with the filter is now 12.8 ft-L (96" DIY screen made from Do-able laminate). It has been as high as 18 ft-L during tweaking. Dynamic has measured as high as 27 ft-L. I can see why Aussie Bob prefers this. These measurements were taken using the windows on the AVIA disk, with the iris on. I may go back later and try it with the iris off.

I'm thinking of taking it to the next level by buying a SMART calibration system, but I'm waiting to see if a projector specific package will be developed for the AE700.

The picture looks pretty good at this point, so I'm going to spend more time watching movies before returning to tweaking.

I think there is dust in the middle of my picture - mostly visible in light surfaces. It does not show up on the blue screen you get when there is no input connection, probably because the blue is too dark. It is also not on the projection screen itself.

It is not on the LCD screen (because the thing is not sharp), so I want to try and clean the backside of the lens. Any sugestions on how to get there or how to get the lens out? I cleaned the airfilter after 80 hours and it was pretty dusty!

Thanks,

Mark

Originally posted by burkheart
Borg,
I just had this happen to me a few days ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487202). I solved the problem by installing Powerstrip and using the 1280x720 custom resolution for DVI/HDMI derived. After that the DVI connection never reverted back to any other resolution after reboot. BTW, the fix even worked after uninstalling Powerstrip.

Thanks, the uninstall worked for me. I don't know how it worked after the uninstall, but I'm not complaining. Thanks!

Originally posted by rkihara
I used a Cokin filter mount and a CC30r recommended by another German site to bring the color into line. The color was greatly improved and light output over Cinema 1 measured with a spotmeter was 50% greater. The contrast ratio measured with the same meter (assuming I did it right) was ~1000:1 in Cinema 1 and ~2000:1 in Video with the CC30r filter. The picture is still slightly bluish, so if I had to do it again I would buy a CC40r, but since the resin filters are $30+ each, I'm going to play with the adjustments a bit more.

Can you elaborate on the Cokin filter mount? What model, how does it attach, etc. I don't know anything about camera filters but I would like to start experimenting.

HMenke

I think he's referring to this

http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/filter/Cokin-Systems.html

Can you elaborate on the Cokin filter mount? What model, how does it attach, etc.

The Cokin filter mount uses an adapter ring sized for your lens thread and a corresponding filter holder which will fit any ring in the same series. You can use square or special round filters in the holder. The lens on the AE700 requires a Cokin "P Series" 77 mm adapter ring, and filter holder. I bought an 85 mm HITECH CC30r filter, since Cokin doesn't seem to make CCxxr filters. The filter is much larger than is needed, since the whole lens is not used to project the image. I've shifted the filter in its holder until only one-half of the filter has light projecting through it. The reason for this is that the filter will bleach out over time, and by shifting the filter, I can use the other half after the first half has bleached out.

rkihara,

Are your measurements (luminance and contrast) measured before any tweaking? Did you perform any tweaking before/after you put on the filter? If you did, can you post your settings? I'd like to see what settings other people have tried. I've tried tweaking with different modes (normal,video,dynamic) with a Lee Salmon Filter and with Digital Video Essentials, but have never gotten good results. The picture always look better with no filter and on Normal mode. I guess I don't know where to start.

Thanks,

beocop

Originally posted by rkihara
Hello All,

I checked out all of the Projection Modes and agree that Cinema 1 is the most accurate. The higher output modes are definitely bluish. One of the German sites recommended the Video mode for best output and contrast, so I used a Cokin filter mount and a CC30r recommended by another German site to bring the color into line. The color was greatly improved and light output over Cinema 1 measured with a spotmeter was 50% greater. The contrast ratio measured with the same meter (assuming I did it right) was ~1000:1 in Cinema 1 and ~2000:1 in Video with the CC30r filter. The picture is still slightly bluish, so if I had to do it again I would buy a CC40r, but since the resin filters are $30+ each, I'm going to play with the adjustments a bit more.

The screen brightness at 100 IRE in Video mode with the filter is now 12.8 ft-L (96" DIY screen made from Do-able laminate). It has been as high as 18 ft-L during tweaking. Dynamic has measured as high as 27 ft-L. I can see why Aussie Bob prefers this. These measurements were taken using the windows on the AVIA disk, with the iris on. I may go back later and try it with the iris off.

Are your measurements (luminance and contrast) measured before any tweaking? Did you perform any tweaking before/after you put on the filter? If you did, can you post your settings? I'd like to see what settings other people have tried. I've tried tweaking with different modes (normal,video,dynamic) with a Lee Salmon Filter and with Digital Video Essentials, but have never gotten good results. The picture always look better with no filter and on Normal mode. I guess I don't know where to start.

I feel like I'm thrashing around too, but the picture looked good to me (Cinema 1) before I put in the filter, just a little dim. Maybe you could tell me what your impressions are of the various settings, before and after putting in the Salmon filter? Video, Normal, and Dynamic were very bright but subjectively bluish to me. The CC30r filter brought the colors in those modes subjectively to near normal, but still slightly bluish. The measured contrast ratio in Video mode with the filter was higher than in Cinema 1 without the filter, but I didn't measure it before putting in the filter, so I don't know if it's due to the filter or the mode. With the filter the Cinema modes are too reddish.

Cine4home posted measured RGB output curves for a large sampling of two projector models. There was substantial variation between projectors of the same model, so any filter that you use will not get the same results all the time, and might even make it worse. From what I've been able to glean from the web, most LCD projectors can be color corrected by adding either a CC30r or CC40r and tweaking the service modes. Some sites suggested other filters.

I kept no record of my settings, but I can pull off my present settings (with filter) the next time I turn on the projector. I'm using the AVIA disk to do all set-up, I have Video Essentials too, but I always had difficulty navigating it. I found that the colors were over-saturated at all default settings, so I'm running -6 to -9, depending on the mode, black level -2 to +2. My white level settings are going to be controversial, since they're much higher than anything I've seen posted, but typically +19 to +22. At these levels, both white bars are still visible on the AVIA inverse pluge (?), and every step pattern I've viewed shows discrete steps from top-to-bottom, so I'm assuming it's right.

QUOTE "I feel like I'm thrashing around too, but the picture looked good to me (Cinema 1) before I put in the filter, just a little dim. Maybe you could tell me what your impressions are of the various settings, before and after putting in the Salmon filter? Video, Normal, and Dynamic were very bright but subjectively bluish to me. The CC30r filter brought the colors in those modes subjectively to near normal, but still slightly bluish. The measured contrast ratio in Video mode with the filter was higher than in Cinema 1 without the filter, but I didn't measure it before putting in the filter, so I don't know if it's due to the filter or the mode. With the filter the Cinema modes are too reddish.
I kept no record of my settings, but I can pull off my present settings (with filter) the next time I turn on the projector. I'm using the AVIA disk to do all set-up, I have Video Essentials too, but I always had difficulty navigating it. I found that the colors were over-saturated at all default settings, so I'm running -6 to -9, depending on the mode, black level -2 to +2. My white level settings are going to be controversial, since they're much higher than anything I've seen posted, but typically +19 to +22. At these levels, both white bars are still visible on the AVIA inverse pluge (?), and every step pattern I've viewed shows discrete steps from top-to-bottom, so I'm assuming it's right. "

When I try to tinker with Video and Dynamic mode using, I could never get the flesh tone I like. The color does not have any "punch" like it has in untouched NORMAL mode. The picture looks like it has a haze (maybe it's the filter). I am also lost when using the ADVANCED picture mode, not knowing exactly how each affect the overall picture. I hope someone will write up a tutorial on how to adjust/calibrate the AE700.


Cinema1 is just too dim and red. I like Cinema2 better. Normal has great color punch and brightness.
The only vice I have on the AE700 picture quality is the light spill at 0 IRE. There's too much light projected when there should'nt be any. When I put up my hand to block some projected light, I was suprised to see how much light was projected on the screen (unblocked part) vs. the blocked part.

I guess I can wait for others to chime in and the SMART III package for AE700 from Steve (any update yet?).

beocop out

KBK,

You've mentioned you've tried calibrating with Cinema3, Natural,Normal, and Dynamic mode. You've indicated that Dynamic is not usable. What about VIDEO mode? Have you played around with this mode? Is it useable? Please post your findings.

Thanks

beocop

Originally posted by KBK
I cannot get the DYNAMIC settings to linearize with Colorfacts, no matter how I manipulate the Projector controls. Dynamic is not usable..if you want linearity, in my opinion. Even with any filter. I tried some filters, No go. I can understand the temptation to use it, yes. As a matter of fact, I did use it, for the first few days. But, I found that a Colorfacts calibration of the NATURAL, and NORMAL settings ended up being the best compromise.

I mucked around with lots of tweaks to take the pinks out after mounting the Lee "Light Salmon" filter. No-signal, minimum, rich blacks and hence contrast were much improved, but everything else went pink, which necessitated further tweaking of non-black tonality and color. This was using DYNAMIC mode, simply because it puts out so much light. I went to work and came out with a complicated combination of ADVANCE settings that pretty-well eliminated the pinks, while maintaining brightness. But I thought I'd take another look.

Suspecting that some of my ADVANCE settings were beating against each other, I reset everything to 0 and started again. I found RED CONTRAST set to minus-12 was a good point to work from, with excursions to other color tweaks depending on the color properties of the movie (many are blue in the blacks to start with, or have clipping or crushing or just rotten color... there's not a lot you can do about what's already on the DVD).

I haven't used calibration software as, even with it, a real working image (i.e. a movie) can still look lousy (as someone stated just above).

Consider this: if all that was needed to be done was to tweak the projector to AVIA "perfection" then why didn't Panasonic do this at the factory and send us pre-tweaked (an un-tweakable thereafter) projectors?

In fact they've provided tweaks for R, G and B contrast and brightness, LOW, MID and HIGH gamma, TINT, color temperature, brightness, overall contrast, color saturation and contrast... not to mention 8 customizable tweakable colors (with three parameters each) in the COLOR MANAGEMENT menu.

The answer is that they recognize the need to tweak, inherent in all of us here on this thread: the "fiddle" factor. Plus, I suspect, they realise that not only do many movies deviate from the "perfect" straight line AVIA ideal (due to all sorts of factors, including poor telecine transfers, bad prints used etc.), but that there will be as many theories and preferences on exactly how a movie or program should "look" as there are purchasers of their projectors.

In short: it all boils down to personal taste. Calibration disks, filters, endless, supposedly "scientific" tweaking (using expensive equipment) can get us close, but the final journey to HT nirvana is one we must take alone.

There are too many variables up and down the chain of production, post-production, processing, room setup, screen color and just plain personal preference to state definitively that any one setup will be perfect (or even should be) for all input image material.

I watch a lot of restored 4:3 black and white movies. Despite all the care and attention taken, they're all over the place! Contrast varies from scene to scene (sometimes simply because the sun moved in the sky, or an arc light got shifted by an electrician on the set between takes), blacks are too gray, or too crushed, and so on. Some more modern DVDs I have are "old" transfers (i.e. pre-2000) with too much sharpening and added gamma. Gandhi looks awful - edge artefacts, clipping in the whites, soft - but we sat enthralled for the full three and-a-half hours. Ditto Close Encounters.... Casablanca is excellent, but The Maltese Falcon and Arsenic And Old Lace require brightness adjustment to enrich the blacks. All part of a day's work in watching the output of thousands of artisans, technicians, auteurs, designers, Technicolor guys in white lab coats, lens designers, cinematographers, marketers, hustlers and entrepreneurs from all over the world who did what they did over the course of a century of creativity. We do them a disservice by even thinking that one size and one magic setup fits all.

No-one I've had around for "dinner and a show" to my house has said anything else but that the projector is a fabulous device and that its pictures are sensational. They've mostly never heard of AVIA or IRE units or, if they have, they're too blown away by the sheer power of the Big Screen to care whether the picture conforms to any standards, as long as its bright, punchy and involving... which it is... and doesn't look like TV... which it doesn't.

A little perspective on why we really want to have a projector in our houses goes a long way. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. You'll be happier that way.

I have had my AE700 for about three weeks now. I have it hooked up via SVGA to a HTPC witha Radeon 980 Pro Graphics card and the picture is nothing short of stunning.

It's my first projector and I've been extremely lucky with no dead pixels, no panel misalignment and no vertical banding.

Right now, I'm wavering between two screens with Pro's and Con's for both:

Grayhawk

Pros - Beautiful blacks, nice shadow detail, tends to hide mpeg noise or distracting film grain as it is a perfectly smooth surface.

Cons - Not as bright as other screens as it has a .95 gain. This is distracting in direct comparisson to other samples but may not be an issue in everyday use.

Firehawk - Solid blacks, good shadow detail, nice bright highlights.

Cons: Whites tend to bloom easily, Surface texture tends to make grain and mpeg noise more visable, tendancy to blow out whites causes scanlines to become momentarily visible.

Is there a road somewhere between the two? Any ideas on how I can better calibrate for the Firehawk?

What screen are you using? I'd love to hear some opinions.

PS: If you run the Panny through SVGA from a HTPC with the image custom scaled to 1280 X 720, you will die when you see how detailed and stable the image is. If you need any more info on how to do this shoot me an email :)

I always like to agree with Aussie Bob, because his attitude is so "correct".
People think I'm nuts if I suddenly realize I don't have the correct preset loaded and change it apologetically. In general they have no idea what I'm talking about when I explain why. I suppose I could use a few more video geek friends, but they can be a bit annoying...
Strangely I have not had any white flashes after updating my 3910 firmware and changing to a shorter HDMI cable. Maybe I'm just blinking at the right time.
I have quit the power down for flicker tweak thing. I warm it up for 20 minutes and flicker tweak. Then I watch movies. F it.
I am stopping the fussing and starting the enjoying.

Well, I finally got my HDMI cable today. My first impression is that I just wasted a lot of time & money. :)

It is now obvious to me that HDMI was the "after thought" on this projector, NOT VGA. As others reported long ago, when you enter the "picture" menu via the AE700 remote on VGA is shows "720 Widescreen". With HDMI it shows "750 / 60P". This despite sending the same exact 1280x720 60P signal to both. I'm sure this is old news to the HDMI folks already, but the HDMI input apparently isn't even displaying in the projector's native resolution. This seems to be a MAJOR flaw, and I have no idea how it passed Panasonic QA. I guess I'll have to be added to the list of people who call that tech support line and complain.

So anyway, as expected with HDMI, I see the cropping. But the other major issue I have is sharpness. First let me qualify that both the VGA and HDMI are using a natural mode with color temp -1 and NR off. The very first thing I noticed with HDMI was that the picture looked like the sharpness setting was cranked up to the max. In the picture menu, I am only able to set sharpness down to -4 at the most on HDMI, which helps, but not enough. Fine/small text, like what you see in the windows task bar, looks terrible compared to VGA.

That said, the colors on HDMI are a lot richer. In a simple A/B "at a glance" comparison of a high resolution photograph (I was using a picture of a red sports car in my test) the HDMI version seems slightly more pleasing to the eye. This may just mean I need to calibrate my VGA side better. I haven't run AVIA on either input.

That's about all the further I've gotten so far in my comparison. I almost feel like I shouldn't bother going much further with the comparison until I figure out what the deal is with HDMI's wrong resolution & cropping & excessive sharpness issues. But I'm going to go watch a movie on it now...

-Gordo

So you're using it with a DVI connection from htpc, and immediately blame the panny for all? Seems possible the video card does analog better than digital.
I can't say myself. I still have not gotten around to hooking up my htpc to mine.

Originally posted by tsteves
So you're using it with a DVI connection from htpc, and immediately blame the panny for all? Seems possible the video card does analog better than digital.
I can't say myself. I still have not gotten around to hooking up my htpc to mine.


Its possible. And it's also possible that the HDMI looks artificially sharp to me because the VGA I'm used to is artificially "unsharp". I know one thing, text that should be clear and black is a lot harder to see over HDMI. I'm using a radeon 9600. For people just using an HDMI ready cable box or DVD player - what does it say for "signal mode" in the picture menu when you are sending it 720P? Like I said, mine shows 750/60P. The reason I blame Panasonic first is because they have apparently acknowledged fault to those that called tech support.

The Radeon card did recognize the AE700 with no trouble, and displayed 'ae-700' as the name of the monitor automatically.
http://www.gordosoft.com/htpc/dvi1.jpg

TraderGordo, can you send a 1080i signal over your HDMI? I found that the AE700 has a noticeably better picture over HDMI at 1080i than 720p. I agree with your comments about excessive sharpness. Compared to component, it gives the HDMI image a less-smooth and more 2D "digital" look.

Originally posted by HMenke
TraderGordo, can you send a 1080i signal over your HDMI? I found that the AE700 has a noticeably better picture over HDMI at 1080i than 720p. I agree with your comments about excessive sharpness. Compared to component, it gives the HDMI image a less-smooth and more 2D "digital" look.

I suppose I could (using powerstrip) , but then I would be giving up on 1-to-1 pixel mapping (not to mention introducing progressive-to-interlace-backto-progressive conversions). Its almost like you are trying to go out of your way to degrade the signal enough that the excessively sharp picture becomes smoother :)

On another note... I don't know if it was worth the money, but that ultralink cable seems to have a higher quality of construction than any cable I've ever owned or seen. I will say this, in the several hours that I've viewed HDMI, I have yet to see a single "white flash". I definitely have to use it more though before I can be sure there are no white flash problems.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
So anyway, as expected with HDMI, I see the cropping. But the other major issue I have is sharpness. First let me qualify that both the VGA and HDMI are using a natural mode with color temp -1 and NR off. The very first thing I noticed with HDMI was that the picture looked like the sharpness setting was cranked up to the max. In the picture menu, I am only able to set sharpness down to -4 at the most on HDMI, which helps, but not enough. Fine/small text, like what you see in the windows task bar, looks terrible compared to VGA.


I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who is witnessing this. I was not sure, If I had a "bad" HDMI cable, but your observation are exactly the same as mine. VGA 1:1 is the way to go. I've also noticed that this "ultra sharpness" HDMI look affects scenes with lots of small details like wide shots with crowd, it's just not as clean, because it's too sharp!

BTW: I'm using a ATI 9800pro with the latest drivers.

Take care,
lpr

Originally posted by tsteves
So you're using it with a DVI connection from htpc, and immediately blame the panny for all? Seems possible the video card does analog better than digital.
I can't say myself. I still have not gotten around to hooking up my htpc to mine.

Interresting... does anyone with a Nvidia card had the same observations as TraderGordo, HMenke and myself about this excessive sharpness?

Later.
lpr

[i]

Now, HD stuff looks nice with HDMI, but for with dvds it's another thing on my HTPC.

lpr [/B]

lpr: Am I reading you right on this? This "extra" hdmi sharpness is beneifical for HD content, but excessive for DVD?

Or do you prefer vga for both HD and DVDs?

Originally posted by ABCD
lpr: Am I reading you right on this? This "extra" hdmi sharpness is beneifical for HD content, but excessive for DVD?
Or do you prefer vga for both HD and DVDs?

I've removed my statement, because it was not that clear... What I can confirm you is that I prefer VGA for anything that comes out of my HTPC. When I tried the HDMI cable, my desktop's text was not as sharp and clean and the image quality from TheaterTek for dvd was also affected. I must have tried one Microsoft HD clip with the HDMI cable and it was not that bad, but the extra resolution would explain this. As for everyday HDTV viewing, I'm using component cables because my cable box's DVI port is not active yet, so I cannot really confirm if it's better to use HDMI for HD stuff.

In short, I prefer VGA for my DVD viewing and PC gaming.

Sorry about the confusion.

Take care,
lpr

If HDMI is truly digital the cable will either work or it won't. All a digital display device has to do is interpret "1" and "0" correctly. A "better" cable might not deform "1" and "0" as much as a "cheaper" one, but this "quality" difference is solely in the analog domain, and doesn't matter one whit of difference in the digital domain. A sloppy "1" or "0" from a $20 cable is as valid as a beautifully shaped "1" or "0" from a $300 cable, as long as the $20 cable passes them all through wiithout dropouts. This is why we use digital signals.

Sure, a well-made and perhaps more expensive cable might work out of the box, every time, but a cheaply made one - if it works at all - will deliver just as a good a digital signal as the expensive Rolls Royce version.

The ignorance and superstition around here about just how the digital domain works is truly astounding.

When are you guys going to get it into your skulls that the AE-700 is a sub-$2000 projector and will never deliver anywhere near the perfect results you're praying might, just might, come out of it, if only you buy a fatter, ridiculously-priced cable or a newer video card with (allegedly) "better" digital output. It's all snake-oil guys, designed by cynical marketers to get you to buy their over-priced products.

Same thing goes for those hoping for a "firmware upgrade" any time soon. Some even believe that "Panasonic is listening" and that, out there somewhere, there is some kind of groundswell of public outrage at VB, white flashes and all the other of the device's little oopsies, and that as a result, Panasonic engineers the World over are scrambling to respond in a meaningful way. It's a mass illusion. Panasonic engineers are scrambling to make excuses, make money and make whoopee with customers' money. Just like every other organisation you can think of (and some you can't).

Repeat: Panasonic isn't listening (or if they are it's going in one ear and out the other). No firmware upgrade is imminent. No new, improved model is imminent. And a $300 cable won't cure your woes.

This projector is an inexpensive toy to be played around with, not a professional device that Spielberg would have in his own HT if only he hadn't bought the $40,000 Qualia or the $100,000 3-chip, DLP, 2048 pixel, 4000 lumen, high-contrast model he already has (plus the permanent staff member to keep it running).

Get used to it.

On the other hand, if you want to dream on and believe Jesus is coming to fix your projectors, then please do so. It'd be nice to see at least one religion that relies on irrational hope, rather than practical mass murder.

Aussie Bob, Great post. I don't think Jesus is coming to fix my projector and you are right that it is a great projector for $2000. I dont expect Panasonic to fix all the small issues. I am however praying that there will be a firmware upgrade to fix the white flash and cropping issues. At least my prayers won't kill anyone. Again thanks for busting the myths about expensive cables and digital signals. Like Religion people will still buy the expensive cables and will be blinded by the truth.

Happy New Year Down Under!!!!

That said, the colors on HDMI are a lot richer. In a simple A/B "at a glance" comparison of a high resolution photograph (I was using a picture of a red sports car in my test) the HDMI version seems slightly more pleasing to the eye. This may just mean I need to calibrate my VGA side better. I haven't run AVIA on either input.

In comparison to VGA defaults, The HDMI defaults on my AE700 are a lot richer. I observed over saturated and tinted with my AVIA calibrations at HDMI defaults. For HDMI, I had to set brightness at +20, Contrast at –8, Color at –8, Tint at +6 and Sharpness at –6. For RGB, I set brightness at +1 and Contrast at +2. Both in Normal Mode. Note that there is no (correctly so) Color or Tint control active for RGB mode on the 700. Nor is one needed as AVIA color bars via my 9800 pro RGB is near perfect.

I find it odd that there are Color and Tint controls activated for HDMI input on the 700 when fed 24bit RGB from DVI. (and appear to default ‘hot’ and tinted compared to the same 9800 pro RGB.) Why are those controls in the RGB path?

Each input and mode on the 700 has it own settings. A cal of each input and mode should be done before comparison. Having A/B’d VGA/HDMI for myself, I’m using VGA as once calibrated, any ‘PQ’ differences are much smaller than the crop/1:1 issue. For me.

Dave

Originally posted by tsteves
So you're using it with a DVI connection from htpc, and immediately blame the panny for all?
well, the panny is to blame, it's that f'n simple.

Originally posted by tsteves
Seems possible the video card does analog better than digital.
boy oh boy.. doesn't anyone understand what digital means?

Originally posted by dlarsen
I find it odd that there are Color and Tint controls activated for HDMI input on the 700 when fed 24bit RGB from DVI. (and appear to default ‘hot’ and tinted compared to the same 9800 pro RGB.) Why are those controls in the RGB path?
yeah that is pretty odd, especially the 'tint' controls.. i have never heard of such a control existing outside of the analog ntsc realm.

Originally posted by dlarsen
Each input and mode on the 700 has it own settings. A cal of each input and mode should be done before comparison. Having A/B’d VGA/HDMI for myself, I’m using VGA as once calibrated, any ‘PQ’ differences are much smaller than the crop/1:1 issue. For me.
likewise, vga is full res and minor colour misinterpretation is something i can easily live with - besides i think it looks a lot better on the whole, isn't subjected to the same image processing that HDMI is.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
If HDMI is truly digital the cable will either work or it won't. All a digital display device has to do is interpret "1" and "0" correctly. A "better" cable might not deform "1" and "0" as much as a "cheaper" one, but this "quality" difference is solely in the analog domain, and doesn't matter one whit of difference in the digital domain. A sloppy "1" or "0" from a $20 cable is as valid as a beautifully shaped "1" or "0" from a $300 cable, as long as the $20 cable passes them all through wiithout dropouts. This is why we use digital signals.

Sure, a well-made and perhaps more expensive cable might work out of the box, every time, but a cheaply made one - if it works at all - will deliver just as a good a digital signal as the expensive Rolls Royce version.

The ignorance and superstition around here about just how the digital domain works is truly astounding.

I am definitely not in the cable voodoo camp (my no-name 23-ft HDMI cable cost less than $100), but are we really sure about the "it either works/doesn't work" theory of digital cables, particularly when it comes to high bandwidth (high frequency) signals coupled with longer lengths? There could be some signal attenuation and distortion of the pulse train that results in spotty transmission at the margins of the receiver's input error tolerance. In a case like this, some of the signal loss (i.e. "0" or "1" not received correctly as "0" or "1") could appear as non-catastrophic yet visible artifacting or picture degradation. This seems like it could be at its worst running HDMI from a "weak" DVI source.

I work in the industrial controls world, and it is not uncommon for digital signals to be "working" yet contain data errors as a result of poor cabling.

Aussie Bob, I'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong on this one. As I've posted in the past, search the forum for posts by "wm", he is an engineer that has tested several cables (try keyword "ultralink"). Anyone who is receiving digital OTA television knows the "work or it won't" concept is a myth. Especially at higher bandwidths, inferior cables suffer from pixelation and other problems, this can and has been measured. Infact, HDMI seems to be much more susceptible to signal loss than analog technology (I don't know why off hand, I'll defer to the experts) and is especially problamatic at lengths >= 10m. Further evidence comes from the fact that people here have reported different levels of white flash when the only setup change has been the HDMI cable.

After several more hours of viewing over HDMI last night including a 2 hour movie I still have not had a single white flash. But as others have noted, HDMI is not up to snuff, and I'll probably stop using it in favor of VGA unless fixes are issued to resolve current problems.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
If HDMI is truly digital the cable will either work or it won't. All a digital display device has to do is interpret "1" and "0" correctly. A "better" cable might not deform "1" and "0" as much as a "cheaper" one, but this "quality" difference is solely in the analog domain, and doesn't matter one whit of difference in the digital domain.

I conceded the "dropout" scenario, of course. If digital drops out then naturally it won't work. But drop outs will be noticed as gross errors, not the constant, subtle fuzziness that many here seem to think can be overcome by spending more on an expensive cable.

Digital systems keep retrying, re-connecting. Note: cell phones and digital television. But when you notice a drop out in these systems you are really noticing a gross error, an interruption in digital transmission: the equivalent of putting an axe through the cable and breaking it. Subtle, consistent loss of fine definition as described in these pages is not likely to be the "cheap" digital cable. It is likely to be your imagination.

I'm not saying that a well-made and expensive cable isn't any good, or must always be a total rip-off. What I am saying is that "cheap" cables, as long as they are well terminated and conform to specification are often just as reliable as Rolls Royce versions. Making a cable thicker, supplying it in a velvet lined box with a certificate doesn't make it automatically better than a cable you make yourself for $5.

I've seen digital audio cables in our local electronics store for hundreds of dollars (yes, complete with certificate and carrying case). I made mine for $5 with a soldering iron, RCA plugs and some microphone cable. All the "1s" and "0s" get through my home-brewed version. My receiver would indicate drop outs if they didn't. On a grosser level, I would hear them. I don't hear anything but sweet, sweet 5 channel audio. Why would I want to spend $299 on that Monster cable when my $5 version works just fine?

Ok, HDMI chews up more bandwidth than SPDIF, but the guys who designed the HDMI didn't set out to design a system that required a cable that costs a good proportion of the expensive equipment it's connected to. The marketers bullsh**ted their customers into believing that thicker meant better, that that final difference of about 0.001 Ohms in impedance improved quality. Crap. Maybe in analog, but not in digital.

A chap from a big projector store here in Sydney let the cat out of the bag for me a long time ago. He said that because the equipment's expensive, mugs think that connecting the various system components should be expensive too. So they fork out Big Bucks into his greasy palm.

Another anecdote: I know a pro video post-production engineer who buys load of HDMI and DVI cables regularly. He gets them for $15, five metres long. About 10% don't work, because they're cheaply made in some sweat shop in China and the mouldeed connectors don't always mate properly. But they don't work in a catastrophic manner, not in some nuanced way that only a videophile with golden ears and X-ray vision could tell the difference. They just die, big time. We're talking DOA here. So he buys 10% more than he needs. The ones that work every time cost $400 each. He saves a bundle.

You will not get incremental improvements by buying expensive cables for digital channels. If the cheapies don't work, you'll know it right away. Look elsewhere for your problem.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I conceded the "dropout" scenario, of course. If digital drops out then naturally it won't work. But drop outs will be noticed as gross errors, not the constant, subtle fuzziness that many here seem to think can be overcome by spending more on an expensive cable.

SNIP...

I agree with everything you said in this post (although "gross error" is pretty subjective, you might have a tiny cluster of pixels that are "off" due to signal loss, and this perhaps only for a split second). You are right about the "subtle fuzziness" statement.

FYI - I did some searching and found this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4454636&highlight=ultralink#post4454636) from WM on the subject:

Originally posted by wm
It occurs to me that there is another factor here that some here might be ignoring. Some are saying "it's digital, so it works or it doesn't". This is an invalid assumption, not supported by the observed data!

If we were talking about a computer data transmission, that might be true (one hopes!). However, we are talking about a display device. It is not designed for 100% fail safe data communication, it is designed to display a picture. As such, there is some amount of error "acceptance" built in, probably quite a bit in fact.

When I test digital cables at 10 meters with 1080p signals, I see different amounts of noise and artifacts in the displayed picture, from large amounts to just a few tiny sparkles to none at all. One test we (I and Faroudja engineering) did was with a 10 meter fiber optic cable. There were no artifacts at all that that we could detect. We then inserted a very short DVI extension cable, because we needed to get around a corner that we worried would damage the fiber cable. There was clear degradation of the picture - tiny sparkies flying around on the screen.

Some cable makers will test at 1080i or lower, and if they get a picture will say "it works". Others, like Ultralink, will work hard to make the cable as good as they can make it, with visible improvement as a result. And some will, as always in this business, claim improvements that are not visible, and charge a lot more for it. I will continue to try to sort out the differences, as should you.

William

p.s. I'm ALL FOR spending the least amount of money you can for cables that WORK.

I conceded the "dropout" scenario, of course. If digital drops out then naturally it won't work. But drop outs will be noticed as gross errors, not the constant, subtle fuzziness that many here seem to think can be overcome by spending more on an expensive cable.The white-flash problem definitely sounds like a "gross error", where the entire picture is lost for a few milliseconds.
Digital systems keep retrying, re-connecting.Not all of them. It depends on whether the specific digital protocol does any error detection and/or error correction. I did a quick search on DVI and couldn't find anything that indicated the DVI spec included any error detection/correction. If true, that could explain the "sparklies" that some people see over DVI connections with long cables, where individual pixels are changed by signal loss.

Once you throw encryption into the mix (such as HDCP), any transmission errors in the bitstream will become much more visible, possibly affecting an entire frame, if no error detection/correction is done by the display device. I don't know whether HDMI adds any error detection/correction on top of DVI, but if not, that might explain the white flashes on the AE700. (It wouldn't explain white flashes with unencrypted content, though.)

I just spent a few minutes skimming the DVI, HDMI, and HDCP specs, and I'd like to clarify and correct some of the statements I made above.

DVI 1.0 has no requirement for error handling. So if either device is using DVI (even with an HDMI adapter), there probably isn't any error detection/correction happening.

HDMI 1.0 requires the use of BCH error correction codes on pixel data, but this applies only when both devices are using HDMI. When an HDMI device is connected to a DVI device, they communicate using DVI 1.0, with no error correction.

HDCP 1.1 allows for optional support of Enhanced Link Verification, which detects transmission errors, but it's not required. In any case, errors in the pixel data would affect only individual pixels, not an entire frame as I indicated above.

So it seems that there's a definite error-correction advantage to using an HDMI device instead of a DVI device with the AE700. Has anyone seen the white flashes when using an HDMI video source device?

Joe Schwartz,

Yes, the HDMI flashes that mosts are seeing has been from HDMI out to HDMI in. Mine is from HDMI output of my DVD player to the HDMI of the PJ.

And if you think that cabling doesn't matter if the signal is digital, then you obviously haven't got hi-def cable TV. Yes, pixelation and minor artifacts like that can occur in neighborhoods where the cabling is older. The picture quality of hi-def cable depends on your location/neighborhood and how good the cabling is to the area. No, the signal degradation doesn't represent itself like analog snow, it occurs in digital form but not as total signal dropout.

Thinking that the 2-3 foot length of cable that someone made at home for their sound system that 'sounds good' means that a 30 foot digital cable carrying a digital video signal must work equally well obviously indicates a lack of understanding of the differences. I guess when they don't use that input anyway they feel it's OK to blow off anyone else's problems. Making this comparison would be akin to telling a race car driver, "Well I don't THINK (because I haven't bothered to even try it, or mod my car or raced it) I would feel ANY difference at all if I put 112 octane in my Yugo for puttering around town so I don't think there's a reason for you guys to use it in your race cars. It's all mental. You guys just believe you notice a difference"

Yes, the HDMI flashes that mosts are seeing has been from HDMI out to HDMI in. Mine is from HDMI output of my DVD player to the HDMI of the PJ.Thanks, I was under the impression that most people were using a DVI source, like a cable box or HTPC.

i would suspect hdcp is the culprit with the white flashes, i guess you can't turn that crap off to find out, but it feels right - any loss of data could mean invalid decryption which means the whole image turns to ****.. for a frame at least depending on how hdcp works

I have just stopped using the hdmi Connection (5 meter low priced cable) between my Panny 97s and the ae700 because of the "subtle fuzziness" and ringing or haloes and white flashes.
I have gone back to using the vga connection which is clearer than hdmi.
Is there a tweak to get rid of the peak a boo scanlines that I have missed reading about ?
I am using a home made vga cable using shielded cat 5e, made as per instructions from, if my memory serves me from Mr Wiggles.
This cable has worked well with my old ae100 for a couple of years.

Any idea what the following parameters are in the service menu?

525i Level < C >
625i Level < C >

Adjustment range is from A through F.

I will call Panasonic about the Peak a Boo Scan lines. They are very annoying on scene changes.

Originally posted by rwestley
I will call Panasonic about the Peak a Boo Scan lines. They are very annoying on scene changes.

Thanks, I look forward to a positive reply from Panasonic.

Does anyone else wonder if Panasonic engineers are monitoring this thread so that they can improve the next model :confused:

A page full of rebuttals to my iinocent statement about digital cables!

White Flashes are obviously a manifestation of gross digital error. I don't see any challenge to what I said there. If we accept that either inadequate cables or an inadequate HDMI specification are causing White Flashes (take your pick) then all the daydreaming about Panasonic "fixing" white flashes in response to angry mobs of HT enthusiasts storming their factories with pitchforks and flaming torches goes out the door. Especially as several above point out that there is no meaningful error correction in either DVI or HDMI specifications, except some rudimentary checksum coding that tells the receiver there was an error, but not its nature, and more importantly, gives no indication of where to find the non-existent replacement data. In short HDMI seems not to have redundancy in its genes. There is no alternative image data for the ever-helpful and sympathetic Panasonic engineers to replace their projector's missing pixels with.

In short, if White Flashes are a cable or medium problem, there is no fix.

As for those who see ringing and fuzziness with a digital feed to the projector, but don't see it with VGA, it's just possible that VGA is filtered (being analog) and that the smoothness of its picture is a helpful mask to the true hard-edged digital signal that shows up MPEGged PAL and NTSC signals for the awful bloody things they really are. 720 unsharp-masked horizontal pixels anamorphically stretched to 960 then up-scaled to 1280 projected onto a screen that's 10 feet wide viewed from 12 feet away? Whadda'ya want for two-bits? Sleigh-bells?

I use my own organic filter when I watch movies on my own big screen: I leave my (slightly minus-diopter) long distance glasses off and remain blissfully ignorant of all the crap that enlarging a signal meant for a 20 inch screen up to 10 feet wide really entails. Works every time (p.s. some de-focus their pjs. Same result).

A note on "peek-a-boo" scan lines: this is probably a result of mucking around with the flicker adjustments. Flicker adjustments are there to maximise smoothness of image in the projector, and each unit has a different setting (analog suck-it-and-see intruding into the digital domain). I adjusted my own flicker settings on day #1, after reading about VB problems (and their "fix"). It's taken me a month and a half to get them right again.

Noticing the intrusion of peek-a-boos after I adjusted the flicker settings, at first I'd wait until the unit heated up before re-adjusting flicker. This meant that peek-a-boos took up to an hour to disappear. Then I noticed - from the SERVICE menu - that operating temperature was actually achieved within minutes and hardly varied after that. So, I hit upon the idea of adjusting the flicker immediately upon power-up, or within a couple of minutes of it anyway. My reasoning was (and this was a guess) that the AE-700's software would take the initial settings at power-up and use them as a default to change "hidden" (internal) flicker settings based on the initial factory-set numbers (numbers which most of us have long since tweaked away). I was guessing that they wouldn't design a device that required an hour's temperature stabilisation to work properly. Further, I guessed that (somehow or other), once initial settings were made manually, there was some predictive method of tracking the effect of temperature on the LCD panels so that peek-a-boos would be not too apparent at any stage of viewing, even hours down the track...as long as the flicker tweak was done just after power-up time. Suffice it to say that my own unit now exhibits peek-a-boos for only five minutes and then settles down nicely. Maybe the "temperature tracking" idea is right?

Perhaps those with an "in" at their local Panasonic office could ask these caring and concerned engineers just what those flicker settings are meant to adjust? Maybe even throw in a recommended procedure, so we can all get back to scratch? That'd be a start. It'd hardly involve them in anything more energetic than sending an email to the equally caring and concerned designers waiting for all our calls at the Kobe Think Tank, now would it?

By the way, we all wrote down our initial flicker settings, just in case, didn't we? Oops! We invaded the secret SERVICE menu? Sorry. Warranty cancelled.

On barraging Panasonic with emails: maybe they do read them. Let's concede that. Maybe they even troll these pages anonymously, keen as mustard to keep up with what the "experts" here (including me) have come up with concerning what they didn't know about their own projector. But I find it highly unlikely that they would entrust any software version upgrade (providing such an upgrade would do any good) to a bunch of home theatre users in their living rooms.

True, there is a deep menu within the service menu that seems to allow configuration of the D-15 VGA connector (or some of it) as an RS-232 port. What data is intended to go through this port is pure conjecture. What protocol? A port is just a bunch of wires until it has a protocol. What data? Tables? Software? Settings? The cargo cult-like, Upgrade? Who knows? Only Panasonic and they're not telling. That's why they buried the function two secret levels down. And why they don't publish the service manual. What goes in and out of this mysterious port? I'm not sure it would be FLASH PROM upgrade data as, in "AE-700: The Movie", it looked suspiciously to me like our Japanese friend had the top off the unit whenever he was jamming new settings and software mods into his prototype. The RS-232 function might be for something entirely different than software upgrades.

Consider this: in the movie the guy was performing upgrades in seconds. Let's assume there's 5 meg of compiled C++ in there (probably much more, considering the complexity of the device). At 9600 Baud (a common RS-232 setting), 5 meg of machine code will take just under 90 minutes of upload time. At 38.4 kBaud (an uncommon setting), it will take 22 minutes. What if the ASICs inside the box need re-programming along with the software? What if the home-made cable we'd have to use failed mid-upload (and crashed everything)?

This upgrade business isn't gonna happen guys, not in our lifetime. Buy the next model. Panasonic stay in business and we get a better projector.

Consider this also: if you know anything about Japanese engineers, you will know this: there is no way that they will countenance "amateurs" re-configuring a port with a secret menu two levels deep in the "factory only" area and then feeding sensitive FLASH upgrade data into their precious machine. And there is no way that they'll ever permit customers to remove the lid of the device under any circumstances. It's just not the way these guys work. Too many potential warranty problems.

This is not some $10 XP shareware pulled off the net that's sold "as is" and no guarantees it'll work with your system. This is a USD$2000 piece of proprietary hardware and firmware made and designed in a real factory, not some geek's garage. Panasonic have assumed (and by law must assume) full responsibility for their product and for any tinkering they authorise that goes wrong in the execution. Any fix - and I reckon a fix being written has got a snowball's chance in hell - will be a factory mod and you can say goodbye to your projectors for a month's turnaround while it's being done.

BTW: you'll be paying the freight and labor, too.

Thanks Bob for another great post. The Peak A Boo scan lines were on
my machine before I touched the flicker adj. I hope we are talking about the same thing. These Horizontal lines appear during scene changes on
television broadcasts only. They last for less than a 10th of a second.

They seem to have something to do with upscailing to 720p since they
are not noticeable on HD broadcasts or DVD sources. Last night I tried
to check this out and on regular broadcasts they were there during scene
changes. When I switched to HD they were only there during breaks not
broadcast in HD. I did not see them during HD segments.

Originally posted by rwestley
Thanks Bob for another great post. The Peak A Boo scan lines were on
my machine before I touched the flicker adj. I hope we are talking about the same thing. These Horizontal lines appear during scene changes on
television broadcasts only. They last for less than a 10th of a second.

They seem to have something to do with upscailing to 720p since they
are not noticeable on HD broadcasts or DVD sources. Last night on tried
to check this out and on regular broadcasts they were there during scene
changes. When I switched to HD they were only there during breaks no
broadcast in HD. I did not see them during HD segments.

I see them during vertical movement and scene changes. when watching dvd's. Signal sent from a Panny 97s @ 480p through transcoder to vga port on ae700.

I am using a Panasonic 97S player at 7:20p. This could be the reason I
am not seeing them. I will try 480P. I wonder if it is a problem in the
upscaling on the Panasonic to 7:20p or 1080I since it is not there for me
on HD broadcasts. I will be calling Panasonic today to get them to add
to the list of fixes. This is more of a problem for me than VB.

Originally posted by rwestley
I am using a Panasonic 97S player at 7:20p. This could be the reason I
am not seeing them. I will try 480P. I wonder if it is a problem in the
upscaling on the Panasonic to 7:20p or 1080I since it is not there for me
on HD broadcasts. I will be calling Panasonic today to get them to add
to the list of fixes. This is more of a problem for me than VB.
If there's a handshaking issue in the implementation of an evolving HDMI protocol, it may be the combination of two devices interacting. I have seen a total of four flashes in 200 hours of viewing with the Sony 975 player at 720p via HDMI (i.e., infrequently). No peek-a-boo scan lines or other discernable artifacts thus far.

I am seeing the scan lines Peak A Boo on TV only using component input.

That is why I think it might be an issue with the upscailing of the picture since it is not there on HD broadcasts. I see it on all no HD programs during scene changes. It lasts about one tenth of a second.

Sometimes when I am watching HD cable through component, I am getting a momentary picture glitch. It looks like a sudden loss if sync in the middle of the picture that only lasts an instant. My cable box (Motorola DCT-6208) has a built-in DVR. The DVR automatically records the current channel you are watching to enable "pause live TV", and as far as I can tell there is no way to turn that feature off.

So when I am watching a program, I'm not sure I am actually watching the live feed or if I am watching a very briefly delayed signal that was just recorded/read from the hard drive. I think I am watching the delayed signal. I can hear the hard drive operating inside the cable box, and it makes a rhythmic "hard drive crunching sound" while it is doing its thing. I have noticed that the picture glitches, when they happen, are synchronized to the crunching sound coming from the hard drive. Therefore, I think that the picture glitches are coming from the cable box and are not the fault of the AE700.

I have noticed that I do not get the glitches when watching SD material. I think it is because the hard drive is loafing along and is not taxed at all in that mode. But when it is handling HD material, it is operating right at its speed limit and sometimes it falls a little behind and hence the glitches.

Any one else seeing this type of issue?

Originally posted by rwestley
I am seeing the scan lines Peak A Boo on TV only using component input.

That is why I think it might be an issue with the upscailing of the picture since it is not there on HD broadcasts. I see it on all no HD programs during scene changes. It lasts about one tenth of a second.

I am currently using component from a crap Toshiba ustil I build a new HTPC. I find the incidence of this distraction as being source dependent. With newer, better quality transfers it is rarely noticed unlike older DVD's.
I *do* believe it is a scaling artifact and its relationship to scene transitions implies to me that it is a 3:2 puldown cadence issue - as though a field from the previous scene is being interleaved with the next.

I also believe the scanline (grid) artifact is also related and is a scaler issue as these are virtually unseen again on better material - will explore more as I get an HTPC set up with TheatreTek.

ted

Hello from Germany! This is my first post after a being a long time reader of numerous forums here. I�ve recently purchased an ae700 and for the most part, after 60 hours of viewing am quite pleased with the machine, with little negative viewing experiences. Saw some ghosting in SeaBiscuit and there was some flicker when I moved the machine from the HT room to the living room but it turns out this was the result of the DVD player I was trying out.

One thing that concerns me is that there seems to be a smudge or shadow of some sort which is irritatingly apparent when I watch shows formatted for full screens. Interestingly, this shows up only when the red pixels are being utilized. Any idea what this might be and how to remedy it? I am enjoying this machine so much I would hate to send it in for service.

Also, not sure what type of warranty Panasonic offers in AU, but according to my warranty, changing any settings (regardless of the menu used) would exclude warranty coverage only if the changes both were �wrongfully� made and caused the damage one is seeking coverage for.

Thanks TVTED, I agree that it seems like a scaler issue. I don't have the
problem on DVD's or on HD programs. I only see the problem on scene
changes on the HD stations or regular stations when an HD signal is not
being transmitted. I am using component for HD TV and I am using HDMI
for my Panasonic 97S player. The cable box is from Scientific Atlanta.

Hi everyone,

I recently was able to see the 4805 side by side with a Panny 700 on two screens (same size) and was wondering if anyone here has had a similar opportunity to compare these two PJ's?

Here's the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489647

If you have any advice for me, could you post it on my thread?

Thanks!

Bob

Also, not sure what type of warranty Panasonic offers in AU, but according to my warranty, changing any settings (regardless of the menu used) would exclude warranty coverage only if the changes both were �wrongfully� made and caused the damage one is seeking coverage for.... JCDtheJD

"...wrongfully made".

I reckon accessing the SERVICE menu, undocumented and coyly (one might say secretly) placed two levels down from MAIN might be able to be regarded as "wrongfully made". Maybe not...

Thing is, no-one knows for sure just what the FLICKER ADJUST setting is supposed to do. It seems to ameliorate VB, but it also seems to have something to do with Peek-a-Boo scan lines. It certainly isn't there for no reason at all.

VB: so many have complained about VB on their devices, and have stated that adjusting flicker fixes the problem, that - ironically - I find it hard to believe FLICKER ADJUST is designed to combat VB. I mean, could Panasonic have gotten it wrong on so many machines when they set flicker at the factory? I suppose it's possible, but hardly likely in my opinion.

Screen Door: a FLICKER setting that produces fllicker on R, G or B causes gross, permanent horizontal scan lines to appear on my machine that seem to be much coarser than 720 lines, more like 360. There are gaps between scan lines you could drive a truck through, and they linger for a long time... kind'a permanent Peek-a-Boos... until the unit "settles down" (a long time after power-up).

I found that adjusting for no flicker soon after power-up (while the unit was "cold") reduced the "settling" time to just a few minutes. This is what led me to think that :

(a) Peek-a-boos are a function of the anti-screen door function failing.

(b) the AE-700's (good) anti-screen door performance is an analog function, requiring different default settings in each unit;

(c) it's dependent on variables, one of which is heat inside the box.

(d) the FLICKER settings merely define base points; software can then track the variables that affect flicker (and hence screen door effect) using the FLICKER ADJUST defaults as reference points for that particular machine. Software has to do this as there is no actual "screen door effect" feedback available to it (as there is to us i.e. we can see it). Software uses indirect methods (e.g. temperature feedback) to predict what the screen door effect might be in any given situation and adjusts "hidden" extra defaults (offset against the FLICKER ADJUST manual settings) as time passes and conditions inside the box change.

(e) if anti-screen door effect fails the picture is worse than if the function wasn't there viz. the appearance of peek-a-boo scan lines.

(f) Panasonic wouoldn't make a device that required hours in the factory for it to warm up to a point where the flicker adjustment would hold in the field. Therefore, an adjustment soon after power-up, followed by software tracking thereafter is more practical and logical.

(g) we'd all do better if someone could get a hold of the service manual and a proper procedure for adjusting flicker, and the objective of adjusting it.

Then we'd all know.

Story With Moral: I once had 10,000 analog CCTV cameras to adjust. They were cheap, but way out of whack ("Chinese Reds" syndrome). I fiddled for a week. No improvement. I asked for a service manual. No response. I employed a friend of mine who is a video engineer. We worked our way through all the tweaks (pots) one by one. Figured out what they all really did. Developed a procedure. Three out of 10,000 cameras came back for warranty exchange (today is six years later). The other 9,997 are out there, working happily and, most imporrtantly, out of warranty. Me? I've spent the profits.

Moral: a good procedure is worth a thousand speculative theories.

Upon reflection, voiding warranty due to fiddling with flicker is probably not a serious concern, as we don't need to take the lid off to fix the problem. It might be a bit naughty, but not a hanging offence. We just need a procedure. Panasonic could probably tell us what to do without risking damage to the machine.

Taking the lid off to re-blow the PROMs is another matter entirely. That would be something Panasonic would want to do themselves.

What some here see as "faults" - VB, flicker, SDE, White Flashes - may not be faults at all. They may just be inevitable results of stretching the performance of what is basically an AE-500 with an iris mechanism in a nicer box until the new-new unit (AE-1000?) comes out with better panels, more lumens, more contrast etc.

What is VB? Does anyone really know what actually causes it. We all know what it looks like, but what is it?

My $0.02 "speculative" theory: it looks to me like a moire pattern (or interference pattern) that results from rotational misalignment between the three LCD panels and hence their horizontal rows and columns of pixels. The panels are beating against each other. It is not actually "V" B, but "V and H" B (depending on whether you're sitting, lying down, standing on your head, or drunk). No matter how well-adjusted mechanically in the factory, the misalignment can be affected by natural expansion and contraction in the chassis due to heat and perhaps other mechanical stress (like using the unit roof-mounted, i.e. upside down).

In short, there is no real fix. VB will wax and wane depending on the viewing environment, and ambient pressure and temperature. The only "fix" will be to make panels of much higher resolution so that VB disappears to the human eye (but it will still be there). If the AE-700 was a single LCD panel device with a color wheel, we might not see VB (but we would see rainbows).

Now someone will come along and shoot my theory down by saying VB appears with just a single color (only one panel) operating. The only thing I can say in response is that "OFF" (black) pixels in an LCD unit are never really "OFF", so moire might still be a problem, even in this situation.

Aussie Bob,
here is some partial info on VB from cine4home's Z3 review. Does not explain what causes but describes the symptoms nicely. http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SanyoPLVZ3/Z3Test.htm :

Bei der Epson-LCD-Variante teilt sich jede zwölfte vertikale Linie eine Ansteuerung. Jede Veränderung, die man bei einer Linie durchführt, wiederholt sich bei der 12ten, 24ten, 36ten etc. Linie. Um eine vertikale Streifenbildung zu verhindern, muss man also 12 benachbarte Linien auf genau die selbe Helligkeit justieren. Stimmen die ersten 12, so stimmen auch alle anderen (wegen der Wiederholung). Eingefleischten D-ILA Fans ist diese Vorgehensweise unter dem Namen "8-bar" (hier sind es nur 8 Steuerleitung) bekannt.

Translation:

With the Epson LCD variant divides each twelfth vertical line a control. Each change, which one accomplishes with a line, repeats itself with the 12ten, 24ten, 36ten etc.. Line. In order to prevent a vertical banding, one must adjust thus 12 neighbouring lines on exactly the same brightness. If the first 12 is correct, then also all different are correct (because of the repetition). Eingefleischten D-ILA fan is this proceeding under the name "8-bar" (here there is only 8 control line) well-known. And the large restriction of the VB menu of the Z3 lies exactly here: It offers only one influence possibility on one only of the 12 different control signals. An even tuning of all 12 lines is not possible thereby.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Now someone will come along and shoot my theory down by saying VB appears with just a single color (only one panel) operating. The only thing I can say in response is that "OFF" (black) pixels in an LCD unit are never really "OFF", so moire might still be a problem, even in this situation.

In the flicker adjust screens, I can see VB mostly on Green, somewhat on Red, and not too much, if any, on Blue. When I adjust flicker, I adjust not only for least flickering but also least VB on the single color screens.

The VB seen on the single colors seems to be the same residual VB that can be seen during program material with solid light backgrounds (sky, clouds, snow).

It seems to me like it is a matter of the LCD panels not having uniform light transmissive properties across the individual pixels. Some pixels transmit more light than others. For some reason - probably related to bias voltage - these variations in transmissive properties are grouped together into vertical bands.

Speaking of VB, I just got back from a trip to the local high-end cinema to see "The Aviator". I was really surprised that there was VB in the theater presentation on the solid light backgrounds - I felt right at home! Not sure what the source of it was - I suspect it was imperfections in the screen itself but it could be that they are using a digital projection system that also suffers from VB issues.

LCD's are addressed in a row/column format via analog voltage control.
Differences in the panel drive control voltages that address the column layout of the panel on alternate clock phases as well as phase differences is enough to account for vertical bands and because of its analog nature subject to thermal differences at the chip level.

Aussie Bob,
I've said elsewhere and still believe it: The flicker adjustments are really meant to address line flickering and its impact on VB is a byproduct because the flicker control is adjusting the individual panels relationship with clock phase.
I believe a better system for VB would allow for incremental adjustment of the analog control voltages of the columns. It would be interesting to find out how the Z3 deals with VB

I also continue to believe as I stated earlier that much of the line flickering is source dependent and a scaler issue and only related to VB in that the drive clocks are phase dependent.

As to Smoothscreen being an Analog process - other threads about this process have indicated it is an optical one (prism) and thus would not be subject to the same thermal issues as the electronics as with your experience you would well know.

ted

Since this is not really a Tweak and thus not really appropriate for this thread, I will delete it if asked.

tvted,

I would have thought anything mechanical would be an analog device at some level, including mounted prisms. If flicker settings weren't an analog function - manual because there is apparently no "flicker" feedback to the firmware - then flicker wouldn't vary with running time.

I do know that adjusting the flicker settings can throw out smooth-screen (if done wrongly), leading to semi-permanent "peek-a-boos" (looking like the projector was a 360 line device, not a 720 line one). And that setting flicker defaults close to power-up time ameliorates peek-a-boos - permanent or otherwise - and thus helps smooth-screen.

I've never worried too much about VB (well at least since the early days) and consequently regret adjusting my flicker settings in he first flush of enthusiasm. My bad.

All I'd like to have a look at is exactly what the flicker adjustments were for and why they're there. And how to set them up right and then never touch them again.

There're so many other source-material artefacts on-screen, VB is the least of my personal concerns. I think we're just expecting too much from an inexpensive domestic projector that's already pushing the limits of the technology it's using. If it was perfect, then it'd be $5000 or $10,000, or more, like some are.

If flicker settings were meant to be routine operational settings - even if only over gaps of hundreds of hours, like cleaning the air filter - their adjustment sliders would be documented in the user's manual, not hidden away in a buried menu for which (as far as I can see) there is no public documentation. For my money, flicker was meant to be adjusted once at the factory and then left unchanged, unless something catastrophic happened to the pj (like: it was dropped) and a guy with a service manual and some training from Head Office had it on his bench to re-calibrate.

Likewise, if VB is so "easy" to fix with flicker settings, why didn't Panasonic save us all the trouble and do it at the factory? And I don't buy the "Panasonic conspiracy" or "Panasonic incompetence" theories. Whatever you might think about the Japanese, they're too thorough with their engineering.

Lots of "whys". Not many "here's whys".

Originally posted by HMenke:Speaking of VB, I just got back from a trip to the local high-end cinema to see "The Aviator". I was really surprised that there was VB in the theater presentation on the solid light backgrounds - I felt right at home! Not sure what the source of it was - I suspect it was imperfections in the screen itself but it could be that they are using a digital projection system that also suffers from VB issues.
I mentioned this same thing in another thread recently. I've been seeing something that fits the standard description of "Vertical Banding" on films in top end movie theaters for years. Most recently, I saw it at a screening of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA at one of the newer Pacific Theater screens in the Los Angeles area.

I assume it can't really be the same VB that everyone is talking about on these threads but it was sure more prominent and obvious than anything like it I've seen on my Panasonic AE-700 in the first 400+ hours of usage.

I have no idea what it is, but it's clearly vertical "bands" present in large sections of the screen for fleeting moments during scenes of the sky, fog and stuff like that.

What you are seeing in movie theatres is the fact that most screens are not made of one single piece of material. They are put together from many
pieces and you are seeing the overlapping sections. It is nearly
impossible to get a piece of material large enough to make a screen for a
movie theatre. It depends how close you are to the screen if you will see
where it it put together. I believe you are seeing 12' not 12" banding in
theatres because each section of screen is 12' On some movie screens I have even seen a variation in color between the panels. This could be due to a defect in the material or a sloppy job of putting them together.

I've been leaving my projector in standby mode for about a week+. Using the projector daily. At first, i thought I didn't see VB, but then I began noticing it again. It went away usually after 30 minutes of the projector warming up. As time went on, the 30 minutes became 20, became 15, became 10. I believe now that there is almost no discernable VB almost immediately.

Just something for people to try that keep switching off their projector.

bapenguin,

About how many hours do you have on your projector?

I've found out that, when using my HTPC to play movies (especially in 2.35:1), if I change my desktop background to absolute black and enlarging the "movie" window to fill the screen (still with windows borders), the projected black bar on the top and bottom of the picture (from black background) is "more black" than when in "full screen" mode (movie window fills entire screen, no windows borders etc..)

In short, the black level produced by the destop background is darker than the masked top and bottom black bars produced by the projector. Normally, when the projector displays a 0 IRE screen (black), there is always a grayish image projected, not total darkness. It seems that at this level, the LCD panels still produces noise or some bias output that will not result in a total black output.

The windows image seems to force the projector to output a certain image value (in this case, black value). If I can find a way to make the window borders black, the picture would be much more pleasing.

Can you guys try this and verify my findings? Any suggestion on how to proceed from here?

beocop

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
tvted,



I've never worried too much about VB (well at least since the early days) and consequently regret adjusting my flicker settings in he first flush of enthusiasm. My bad.

All I'd like to have a look at is exactly what the flicker adjustments were for and why they're there. And how to set them up right and then never touch them again.

There're so many other source-material artifacts on-screen, VB is the least of my personal concerns. I think we're just expecting too much from an inexpensive domestic projector that's already pushing the limits of the technology it's using. If it was perfect, then it'd be $5000 or $10,000, or more, like some are.

If flicker settings were meant to be routine operational settings - even if only over gaps of hundreds of hours, like cleaning the air filter - their adjustment sliders would be documented in the user's manual, not hidden away in a buried menu for which (as far as I can see) there is no public documentation. For my money, flicker was meant to be adjusted once at the factory and then left unchanged, unless something catastrophic happened to the pj (like: it was dropped) and a guy with a service manual and some training from Head Office had it on his bench to re-calibrate.

Likewise, if VB is so "easy" to fix with flicker settings, why didn't Panasonic save us all the trouble and do it at the factory?




Bob,
I agree with much of what you say - many of us *are* overlooking the fact that this is a middle-priced PJ at the low end of the scale and compares quite well with the mid range.

For me - VB is not a major concern - scanlines are more distracting.
As I said in my post, I do *not* believe the the flicker tweaks are for VB specifically but is a byproduct of said adjustment. I believe it adjusts the clock phase for the column/row nature of all lcd screens to adjust for even luminance vertically and horizontally. If the drive pulses are out of phase then the addressing would not be synchronized - it just so happens this addresses VB as well since the causes are related. Again I believe it would be more effective to tweak the analog drive lines of the panel directly to match the Control Voltage levels. It wouldn't surprise me if this is how it is done on the Z3.

I'd suggest that Panasonic included it because even illumination across a field is a problem with all LCD derived screens and at the size a PJ conveys them can be readily apparent where it might not be so on a 17 inch panel.
Try adjusting the CLOCK and PHASE controls on an LCD monitor and watch what happens.

I agree it would be preferable if the adjustments were once and leave alone - but I've yet to use an LCD that didn't require some warm-up time before I can't detect luminance differences across the display. Many people fail to consider that an LCD is actually an *Analog* device.

I'm only a videophile in my day job though, at home any TV I might watch (rare) is from broken rabbit ears and where initially I thought I might tweak the PJ I'd rather just watch the movie not the surface so I will eventually - procrastination is more fun.

ted

Originally posted by beocop
I've found out that, when using my HTPC to play movies (especially in 2.35:1), if I change my desktop background to absolute black and enlarging the "movie" window to fill the screen (still with windows borders), the projected black bar on the top and bottom of the picture (from black background) is "more black" than when in "full screen" mode (movie window fills entire screen, no windows borders etc..)

In short, the black level produced by the destop background is darker than the masked top and bottom black bars produced by the projector. Normally, when the projector displays a 0 IRE screen (black), there is always a grayish image projected, not total darkness. It seems that at this level, the LCD panels still produces noise or some bias output that will not result in a total black output.

The windows image seems to force the projector to output a certain image value (in this case, black value). If I can find a way to make the window borders black, the picture would be much more pleasing.

Can you guys try this and verify my findings? Any suggestion on how to proceed from here?

beocop

What software are you using for playback? Perhaps its is providing 7.5 IRE (digital 16) black wherein the desktop is PC black, i.e. IRE 0 (digital 0).

Why not just mask your screen it doesn't really require much effort, and provides a better perceived image. No matter what you do any digital PJ - especially transmissive like LCD will never provide a true black.

Cloth is inexpensive.

ted

I just spoke to someone at Panasonic again regarding the issues reported.

They have been monitoring this forum and they told me that they are working on the problems reported. Their technicians have just come back from vacation so lets hope we will have some answers soon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tvted
[B]What software are you using for playback? Perhaps its is providing 7.5 IRE (digital 16) black wherein the desktop is PC black, i.e. IRE 0 (digital 0). "

I use PowerDVD6.0. How can I find out what black level (7.5 vs 0 IRE) is being used by the player? How do I change it?
I also noted that, even when SHUTTER is switch to on, there's still light projected.


QUOTE "Why not just mask your screen it doesn't really require much effort, and provides a better perceived image. No matter what you do any digital PJ - especially transmissive like LCD will never provide a true black. Cloth is inexpensive."

I know that manual masking is better and plan on doing it. This method is more time consuming and not as esthetically pleasing since I have to find a way to hide the top and bottom masking when not being used.

Originally posted by beocop
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tvted
[B]What software are you using for playback? Perhaps its is providing 7.5 IRE (digital 16) black wherein the desktop is PC black, i.e. IRE 0 (digital 0). "

I use PowerDVD6.0. How can I find out what black level (7.5 vs 0 IRE) is being used by the player? How do I change it?
I also noted that, even when SHUTTER is switch to on, there's still light projected.


I wish I could help you on that one - PowerDVD I don't use. I was merely suggesting a path to investigate. Be aware that black at 0 and 7.5 are exactly the same as long as the display is calibrated for one or the other and has been discussed many times on AVS.
BTW Is there no way to set levels within PowerDVD?

As far as SHUTTER mode goes - short of actually turning the lamp off absolute black is currently impossible on an LCD display.

sorry I'm of no *real* help
ted

Originally posted by beocop
I've found out that, when using my HTPC to play movies (especially in 2.35:1), if I change my desktop background to absolute black and enlarging the "movie" window to fill the screen (still with windows borders), the projected black bar on the top and bottom of the picture (from black background) is "more black" than when in "full screen" mode (movie window fills entire screen, no windows borders etc..)

In short, the black level produced by the destop background is darker than the masked top and bottom black bars produced by the projector. Normally, when the projector displays a 0 IRE screen (black), there is always a grayish image projected, not total darkness. It seems that at this level, the LCD panels still produces noise or some bias output that will not result in a total black output.

The windows image seems to force the projector to output a certain image value (in this case, black value). If I can find a way to make the window borders black, the picture would be much more pleasing.

Can you guys try this and verify my findings? Any suggestion on how to proceed from here?

beocop
Perhaps you are using the overlay renderer? Is so, the overlay has it’s own independent controls and you have a discrepancy between the overlay black and the desktop black. Also, if the AE700 auto iris is on, how black black is will vary depending on how much black area (or APL) is in a given scene. (Even if it’s off it will still vary a little based on area due to ANSI contrast issues and room light pollution)

If you’re using VMR7(9) perhaps you still have a level discrepancy between desktop and the video path. Check the color controls in the video decoder / player. If you use multiple sources (desktop, overlay video, etc) on the same input and mode, you’ll probably need to do some source calibration / level matching if you don’t recalibrate the display for each source.

You’ll also have a level incompatibly (by design) if you’re using studio RGB for your video path as it defines black as 16,16,16 and your desktop will define black as 0,0,0.

One tip I’ve found to help setting the black level on the 700: If you pull up the 700’s OSD, you’ll notice that the background for the OSD is an alpha blended transparency. It has the effect of darkening what’s below it. If you put up a full-field black and enable the OSD you should not be able to see the OSD background as it will now be blacker than black. If you can observe this OSD induced blacker-than-black when sending ‘black’ to the projector, you’re blacks are not as black as they could/should be.

Oh yea, Shutter mode defiantly aint black on my 700 either. When I send the PJ ‘black’, it is much darker than the shutter black.

Dave

Originally posted by rwestley
I just spoke to someone at Panasonic again regarding the issues reported.

They have been monitoring this forum and they told me that they are working on the problems reported. Their technicians have just come back from vacation so lets hope we will have some answers soon.

So did they indicate that a "fix" for existing customers would be made available or are they working on these problems for their next model? :)

If a fix will be made available, what deployment options are there? I hope they can allow power users to flash their units via HDMI (if flashing is even supported on these units). I don't want to send mine in to anyone, not to mention that would cost Panasonic a lot of money.

VB from standby and HDMI cropping are must fix issues as far as I'm concerned.

They did indicate that there would be a fix for existing customers. I was told that they did not have an answer yet but we should hear something soon. I mentioned the Peak A Boo problem and I asked that it be added to
the list. I was told that it is already on the list and that they are monitoring
this forum. They are aware of the VB standby and HDMi cropping issues
as well as the white flash issue. Lets see what they come up with.

I will be going to the CES show this week and I will try to talk to someone
at Panasonic. I doubt that they will let us flash the units ourselves. It will
cost Panasonic some money but if they do the right thing they will sell many more projectors.

---[QUOTE]Originally posted by dlarsen
[B]Perhaps you are using the overlay renderer? Is so, the overlay has it’s own independent controls and you have a discrepancy between the overlay black and the desktop black. Also, if the AE700 auto iris is on, how black black is will vary depending on how much black area (or APL) is in a given scene. (Even if it’s off it will still vary a little based on area due to ANSI contrast issues and room light pollution) "

Thanks. I'll check tonite if an overlay render is being used.


---"You’ll also have a level incompatibly (by design) if you’re using studio RGB for your video path as it defines black as 16,16,16 and your desktop will define black as 0,0,0. "

I am clueless as what video path is being used. How can I check this?


---"One tip I’ve found to help setting the black level on the 700: If you pull up the 700’s OSD, you’ll notice that the background for the OSD is an alpha blended transparency. It has the effect of darkening what’s below it. If you put up a full-field black and enable the OSD you should not be able to see the OSD background as it will now be blacker than black. If you can observe this OSD induced blacker-than-black when sending ‘black’ to the projector, you’re blacks are not as black as they could/should be. "

Are you suggesting that I use the OSD transparency black level as the "reference" to adjust to. It's probably going to lower brightness considerably. I'll play around with this and see what happens.


----"Oh yea, Shutter mode defiantly aint black on my 700 either. When I send the PJ ‘black’, it is much darker than the shutter black. "

I was hoping someone could come up with a way to force the projector to project black for masking in 2.35:1 mode.

I have found that I too get 750p/60 using the HDMI input. The whole reason I got an upscaling DVD source was to get 1 to 1 pixel mapping. Do you think there will be any plans to correct this in a new firmware?

Originally posted by dlarsen
Perhaps you are using the overlay renderer? Is so, the overlay has it’s own independent controls and you have a discrepancy between the overlay black and the desktop black. Also, if the AE700 auto iris is on, how black black is will vary depending on how much black area (or APL) is in a given scene. (Even if it’s off it will still vary a little based on area due to ANSI contrast issues and room light pollution)

................................................

Lots of really good advice
.............................................

Dave

Great post!
I'll defintely be referring to it when I venture into HTPC land.

thanks
ted

I do believe that they will fix the 1 to 1 pixel mapping with new firmware.

That should be the easy part of the fix list.

I am clueless as what video path is being used. How can I check this
I’m clueless as to what settings/capabilities/adjustments PowerDVD has. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that I use the OSD transparency black level as the "reference" to adjust to. It's probably going to lower brightness considerably. I'll play around with this and see what happens.
No, I’m not suggesting using the OSD transparency as a reference black level. The OSD alpha blended transparency is not necessarily black. It’ll depend what’s behind (underneath) it. I’m suggesting that if you have black (from your video source) behind it, that the background transparency will in effect create a blacker than black area when overlaid with the black source and if you can distinguish between the black (from your source) and the OSD induced blacker than black, then the black (brightness) is too high and you’re not projecting as black a black as is possible. Set correctly, it may or may not lower brightness but will maximize contrast. For most, that’s the goal of a calibration- to maximize both brightness and contrast without clipping. Dynamic range if you will.

I was hoping someone could come up with a way to force the projector to project black for masking in 2.35:1 mode.
Well, your black will only ever be as black as your PJ/room will allow. I use an adjustable masking on my screen consisting of black foam-core covered in black felt and held to the screen frame in an adjustable fashion with strip magnets. I slide this masking around depending on AR. I also plan to make some vertical ones for 4:3 content. Perhaps one could fashion a lens cap 2.35 aperture to be fitted over the lens to mask stray light from exiting the lens? Where the 2.35 aperture is located in relation to the center of the lens would depend on if and how much one is using lens shift. You should be able to observe the illumination cone exiting from the lens. I opted for masking at the screen as the further from the screen a mask is, the less defined the mask edge will be. (and won’t do anything for CR limited by the room) For me, I think the limit in ANSI CR is not the AE700 but rather my room. (light walls, carpet, and ceiling- hardly the bat cave I’d like for front PJ.)

Dave

Originally posted by rwestley
I do believe that they will fix the 1 to 1 pixel mapping with new firmware.

That should be the easy part of the fix list.
Assuming Panny is monitoring this thread… Please, please, please release the F/W and instructions so technical users can do their own flash. I’d happily construct any cables necessary etc to do the flash myself. I’m bothered by many of these issues too but I’m not sure I’m bothered enough by them to incur the cost, risk, and loss of use that shipping the unit around would entail…

Dave

I wish they would provide the firmware if that is all it is and instructions to
do the flash at home. I don't believe they will do it since they would
be responsible if something went wrong. I also do not know if the unit
would have to be set up again using special equipment. I did mention the
flashing the firmware and I was told by the person I spoke to that it
probably has to be sent in.

I don't believe they will do it since they would be responsible if something went wrong. I also do not know if the unit
would have to be set up again using special equipment

I understand the risks associated with flashing F/W. If "something went wrong" then I guess I'd have to send my unit in. If they have their way I'd have to send it in anyway??? and risk exposure to shipping damage, loss, down time etc.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning... but ok. What if something went right? Better, faster and cheaper for all seems to me...

I suspect I won't be sending my unit in if that's what it takes. I wont be amoung the first anyway.

Dave

Originally posted by biffbyun
I have found that I too get 750p/60 using the HDMI input. The whole reason I got an upscaling DVD source was to get 1 to 1 pixel mapping. Do you think there will be any plans to correct this in a new firmware?
i did some testing on this issue a while back and found that using HDMI i was infact seeing 1:1 pixel mapping - with 30 lines being cropped. the reason i doubted this is because alongside the cropping, i see.. err.. *something* happening to the image. to me it looks like edge enhancement.. really BAD edge enhancement.. ghosting would be a more appropriate term. (i do NOT see this effect using RGB)

i did this by making a test picture with 1 line white, 1 line black repeated across a 1280x720 image. this would have shown if some lines were double-black, double-gray, double-white or something along those lines should the projector be resampling 690->720 lines.

all lines were distinctly black and uniform in height.

HOWEVER..

the cropped areas were completely black - as in - no light at all. so it was as if the projector had physically moved some barrier up along the lcd panel to completely block ALL light coming through. what i had expected to see if it were cropping was the usual 'grayish' black that is inherent in lcd projectors.

so i was, and still am, a little confused as to what is actually happening here, the notion that a little physical mask was elevated along the lcd panel sounds ridiculous, but considering i did the same test (white line/black line) with RGB and saw the WHOLE image (as well as each line uniquely displayed) tells me that the projector does indeed have 720 lines on the panel.. so while being ridiculous it is the only answer i could come up with.

I just found this on the regular thread for those who missed it. It seems like something is in the works at least as far as the white flash issue goes.
I hope they also come up with solutions for the other problems described
in this fourm such as cropping, peak a boo, and VB.

I think someone else posted that 105 also corrects the cropping issues but
I am not sure.

Does anyone know how to check the firmware version on the AE700?


"!!!!! SOME VERY IMPORTANT NEWS ABOUT WHITE FLASHES !!!!!

I have received a response from Panasonic Japan. They have found the solution! Their response:

Symptom: Appear the white flash and like snow noise at once per about 2 hors operation.

Causes: State of HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) will be changed due to the noise on the signal of transmitter (DVD, HDMI and Cable) and software design of AE700 was corresponded decryption transaction and it will be appeared as the snow noise about 60ms.

Countermeasure: Change/use to improved/corrected software version (version 1.05).


I have to send my PT-AE700 to Panasonic Swiss to update the firmware! "

Originally posted by JimP
bapenguin,

About how many hours do you have on your projector?

About 175 now.

ummm i think we all need to know how to find out the firmware version and which of the new units shiped will have the updated firmware.

my AE700 is still on backorder atm.

i thought we had been over this several times. the firmware version is listed in the secret menu under "system check". i also posted about 1.05 and its ability to adjust HDMI under/over scan 4 days ago.

on another tangent i am getting the impression some people arent adjusting the sharpness setting to the minimum. not 0 but the maximum negative value. this was also mentioned on page 1 of the tweaks thread. thus we are seeing people talking about issue like edge enhancement. to my eye 0 (default) has edge enhacement.

Originally posted by Durabolin
i thought we had been over this several times. the firmware version is listed in the secret menu under "system check". i also posted about 1.05 and its ability to adjust HDMI under/over scan 4 days ago.

on another tangent i am getting the impression some people arent adjusting the sharpness setting to the minimum. not 0 but the maximum negative value. this was also mentioned on page 1 of the tweaks thread. thus we are seeing people talking about issue like edge enhancement. to my eye 0 (default) has edge enhacement.

I agree Sharpness = 0 still has 50% edge enhancement. The maximum negative values for Sharpness seem to vary by Mode, Input, and signal type. I did find that on poor 480i source material (e.g. cable) some very slight edge enhancement is helpful, for example one or maximum two notches up from full negative. On everything else I have full negative.

Some of the edge enhancement people are reporting on DVD is also coming from the DVD source material itself and can't be eliminated.

why are these projectors on back order. i placed my order and it was shipped out a couple days ago. the provided ups tracking number says it will arrive in a couple days.from what i am reading does this mean some of these projectors will come with the firmware already done?

I just checked my firmware version it lists R 1.03. A.1.03. P.104. I would
love to know what this may mean since three different firmwares are listed.

Originally posted by rwestley
I just checked my firmware version it lists R 1.03. A.1.03. P.104. I would
love to know what this may mean since three different firmwares are listed.

I have the same versions on my unit.

Originally posted by Durabolin
i thought we had been over this several times. the firmware version is listed in the secret menu under "system check". i also posted about 1.05 and its ability to adjust HDMI under/over scan 4 days ago.

on another tangent i am getting the impression some people arent adjusting the sharpness setting to the minimum. not 0 but the maximum negative value. this was also mentioned on page 1 of the tweaks thread. thus we are seeing people talking about issue like edge enhancement. to my eye 0 (default) has edge enhacement.

that's what happens when u have threads that have 300 or 400+ posts - everyone just reads the last page.

i don't see why admin doesn't created subfolders for each manufacturer and there ppl can create different topics regarding that PJ - i know there's too many posts here allready. it needs a bit of organising.

anyway that's my 2 cent's worth
apart from that - this forum is AWESOME!

I emailed projectorpeople.com to ask if the new firmware was installed on the 700s they are currently sending out. I obtained permission to re-post the reply I received.

This is one of their technical people speaking to the sale/service reps:

Good Morning All,
I just wanted to send out a quick email because some of you have already started taking calls.
An Engineer from Panasonic-Asia was quoted on the AVS Forum last night as stating there is a firmware upgrade being released on the AE700U's to address a minor issue with HDMI connections.

We will update with specifics once Panasonic arrives here next Monday. Until then, here are some bullet points:
- We have the latest available firmware in house. The "updated firmware" hasn't even been released from Panasonic Engineering in Asia yet.

- Most (more than 90%) of the users will NOT have a problem with HDMI regardless.
- If a customer needs a firmware upgrade in the future, our Cust Service group will make sure it is taken care of as painlessly as possible.

- Nobody in the United States will have anything different in regards to firmware than we have.

I can't stress enough that most of the people out there would never know, nor need, a firmware upgrade had it not been mentioned on the forum. Most people have no problems at all with their HDMI connections.

As always, we will keep you updated.



Thanks to projectorpeople for giving me permission to re-post this info.

It has also been reported that Panasonic has taken care of the cropping issue with the new firmware along with the HDMi White Flash issues.

I don't buy the Projectorpeople answer. " Can't stress enough that most of the people out there would never know, nor need, a firmware upgrade had it not been mentioned on the forum." Just read through this forum and
you will see several problems that need fixing including " I guess if one
doesn't know about the problem its ok according to this response.

Some problems reported:
1. HDMI White Flash
2. Cropping 1x1 mapping
3 Peak A Boo scan lines

These and others issues have been reported to Panasonic.

now all we need to know is how to go about the process. i havnt even gotten my projecotr yet, it arrives tommrow. so do i turn around and send it back for the formware or do i wait and see if they have a way of doing it yourself? il look forward to hearing when someone knows.just imagine though how great this machine will be !

Thanks pjgirl. Now I know of at least one place I won't be buying the AE700 from. These minor issues have kept me on the sidelines in regard as to go with the Sony HS51 or the Panny. Still waiting it out.

Originally posted by rwestley
It has also been reported that Panasonic has taken care of the cropping issue with the new firmware along with the HDMi White Flash issues.

I don't buy the Projectorpeople answer. " Can't stress enough that most of the people out there would never know, nor need, a firmware upgrade had it not been mentioned on the forum." Just read through this forum and
you will see several problems that need fixing including " I guess if one
doesn't know about the problem its ok according to this response.

Some problems reported:
1. HDMI White Flash
2. Cropping 1x1 mapping
3 Peak A Boo scan lines

These and others issues have been reported to Panasonic.

i think the high sharpness level when using HDMI is also another problem that need to solve.

I just received my AE700 today. It took me a while to find out what the VB was that I was hearing all about. All I could see were these kind of annoying darkened vertical lines that were on plain bright scen.... oh, that's the VB.
Anyways, I went back and forth through the flicker tests and they seemed to change within minutes apart. I could set it for one setting with no flicker and come back a minute later and find a better setting because my previous one had flicker again. Anyone else get this. The VB didn't go away completely but isn't as bad a showstopper as DLP. (By the way, are there any DLP wheels that produce no rainbows at all?)

I also can see about 15 slightly green pixels and like 2 blue ones on a black screen. They are hard to find and count because my big stupid head gets in the way of the light upon close observation. I know there are close to a million pixels but does this seem like quite a few for a brand new projector? I just got it from projectorpeople.com Does anyone else have this many or more "dead" or "stuck pixels"?

It seems one of the two most obvious ones (able to see during the movies) become "un-stuck" or whatever. Guess I'll try it again in the morning but I can't put more than another hour on it before my 4 hour return policy is up.

I'm using a Da-Lite High Power because it is what I originally purchased to work with NEC LT240K (but returned that due to rainbows) and it seems to work pretty well. I can actually zoom this one to a bigger size so I may end up just ordering the Da-Lite High Contrast or Matte White material and tack it up to the wall. The waves in the hang-down screen are kind of annoying when trying to surf the interned because the text is inconsistent and somewhat blurry in areas. I didn't need to be able to retract it anyways.

So, my eyes hurt and I'm going to bed and hopefully everything will be well tomorrow.

By the way, what are the sharpness and contrast setting everyone is using. I like the Natural with the -1 temp but haven't seen anyone posting about brightness level and white levels, etc.

Originally posted by Brian Jameson
So, my eyes hurt and I'm going to bed and hopefully everything will be well tomorrow.

By the way, what are the sharpness and contrast setting everyone is using. I like the Natural with the -1 temp but haven't seen anyone posting about brightness level and white levels, etc.

If you left the PJ in Standby overnight, it will be interesting to hear back on the VB level when you fire it back up.

The settings are discrete for each input, each signal type, and each picture mode. So you have to set up each signal independently (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) on each input (Component, HDMI, VGA) for each Mode (Normal, Video, Cinema1, etc). It's a lot of work but worth it because you might find that you like different Modes for different material instead of one Mode for everything.

My Sharpness is all the way negative on everything except poor 480i sources, where I have one or two notches above full negative. Contrast is 0 for all signals. On Component, I calibrated Brightness, Color, and Tint for for all picture Modes for all signals, 480i and 480p with DVE and 720p/1080i with HD test patterns from HDNet.

Because I have no HDMI out on my DVD player to use DVE for 480i/p setup, I calibrated HDMI using only the HDNet test patterns at 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i by changing the output of my cable box to each resolution successively and going individually through each picture Mode at each resolution. Once you get into it, it goes pretty fast.

Originally posted by HMenke
If you left the PJ in Standby overnight, it will be interesting to hear back on the VB level when you fire it back up.



I really wish some other people would start leaving the projector in standby. I've now done it for almost 2 weeks, and the VB issue doesn't come up anymore. I have about 200 hours on the projector. There may just be a "breaking in" period with standby or something.

On to the comment that someone didn't buy Projector People's comments about people not needing a firmware upgrade. This forum is a VERY small segment of the customer base and isn't accurate of what people are seeing. Not only that, this forum contains people who are overly critical of the quality of the items they purchase.

Furthermore, you always here far more bad things than good things, praises. That seems to be human nature. Boast the bad, ignore the good.

Are 15 or more pixels too many dead? It seemed that when I first turned it on that I did not notice any at all and looked pretty hard. Now, so many of them are a real slight green (can't see from across the room), with 2 being bright blue.

Does anyone know what the ProjectorPeople's dead-pixel policy is?

Brian

What you're describing sounds like what some people are seeing as sparkles caused by their DVI cable.

Are you connected via DVI ??

If the light green artifacts move around, it couldn't be bad pixels as they would be stationary.

They don't move. I'm using VGA cause all the bad things I heard about DVI.

Same regardless of signal source??

Yeah, I only have a PC to hook up but I tried the DVI-VGA route and regular VGA. It seems that they are dead/stuck pixels. The majority of them though are just slightly green on a white back ground and nearly impossible to see in a movie scene. They are less green on the all green background found in the service option.

Just 2 of them appear blue on a black background but slightly green on regular movie screens. I'm probably just too worried about it and I'm sure I won't notice it during the movies. The vertical banding is kind of ugly but not much worse than the digital artifacts inherent to DVD anyways. It is much better than looking at rainbows all day.

Someone said something about rotating full screen color or something to try and unstick the pixel. Has anyone tried this? Also, could these pixels have died from playing with the flicker settings? I set the green to a really high flicker number just to see what kind of trippy image I would get (was pretty damn trippy).

Here is the reply I received from my projector vendor to my inquiry about a firmware upgrade

I spoke with Panasonic tech support and he confirmed that they are
working on an fix for the reported white flash and pixel issues
associated with using the HDMI cable. There is not an upgrade available
yet. He didn't have any details as to when or how the upgrade would be
managed. He did offer to put me on a list to be notified when the fix
was released. I will keep your email address and forward any
information they send. If you would like to call them direct to be
added to the list they can be reached at 800-524-1448 opt 2. If you
have any questions please let me know.

It didn't say anything about the VB? Is the possiblity of VB being fixed by firmware even possible?

Also, how do you check to see which firmware you have installed? I just got mine yesterday.

Feedback from those with the units > 100-200 hours suggest VB does become less prominent with time, even when left on standby. You won't be able to get rid of it completely. That seems to be a limitation of the D4 LCD panels.

To see the firmware. Go to Options in the menu and select OSD, then press and hold the Enter button on the remote. This will show you the Service Menu #1. There should be a Self Check or something option which shows the operating temperature, total bulb life used etc as well as the firmware version.

Woof Woof,

Is that the only 'hidden' menu that you know of? I heard there was others but I don't know how to access them if there are.

Jeff

Originally posted by Brian Jameson
It didn't say anything about the VB? Is the possiblity of VB being fixed by firmware even possible?

Also, how do you check to see which firmware you have installed? I just got mine yesterday.

First Page (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4606637#post4606637)

Hey Trader, I did that Desktop Wallpaper Tile style and wanted to comment that if I did any keystoning at all, it got those crazy band lines and the more keystone, the crazier it got. Try it. When left in neutral, I had none.

Really you shouldn't have ANY stuck pixels. I had one pixel that was stuck green on my original unit, and it was pretty easy to see on static backgrounds. I couldn't see it during movies, but on static screens (like my Tivo menu) it was pretty clear. I could also see it in the flicker adjust screen as a slightly brighter green pixel on the green flicker screen.

If you have multiple slight discolorations on the green flicker screen I'd say you've got a problem with the unit and should swap it out for a new one. If they are in that screen, it can't be anything external to your unit.

Originally posted by jeffmcc
Woof Woof,

Is that the only 'hidden' menu that you know of? I heard there was others but I don't know how to access them if there are.

Jeff

The second service menu? Hold Down Enter in one of the items in the first service menu.

For some reason, my Iris and Fan options in the second service menu are disabled now. Could have sworn it was available earlier.

I'd like to throw my 2c into this thread as well. I seems that I am having the problems with cropping and '750p' mode on the HDMI (DVI) interface as well. I have tried driving the monitor from both a Mac Cube with a Geforce2 MX and a Mac PowerBook 15" Aluminum with ATI 9700.

On the Geforce I get a problem with the card recognising the EDID data - the EDID is inaccurate and sets the card into a crazy 1920x1080@30 Hz mode which the projector rejects. Using DisplayConfigX I can coerce it into a 720p mode but both the bottom and right edge are being cut off. Upon reboot, I lose that mode and have to mess around again.

On the ATI 9700, the card reads the EDID correctly but I get cropping on the right and bottom.

I spent hours on this and now having read this thread I am convinced this is a hardware issue with the HDMI input on the AE700. I am going to go buy a VGA cable and see if that fixes anything.

I have tried a VGA cable and can report back.

There is NO sign of the overscan issue with the VGA connection. Although the card didn't recognise the monitor right away, a little DisplayConfigX tweak installed a 1280x720 resolution which is recognised as 'WIDE720' by the projector.

Question: is it possible to coerce the projector to see this mode via HDMI? Would this fix the overscan problem?

You should have read the thread first...

Panasonic fixed the HDMI cropping problem (among other problems) in the new firmware that no one actually has yet :). Note: You can use the position menu to at least evenly distributed the cropped picture. VGA will solve your crop issues. Follow these instructions (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4606637#post4606637) for setting it up.

Originally posted by matt.hocker
I'd like to throw my 2c into this thread as well. I seems that I am having the problems with cropping and '750p' mode on the HDMI (DVI) interface as well. I have tried driving the monitor from both a Mac Cube with a Geforce2 MX and a Mac PowerBook 15" Aluminum with ATI 9700.

On the Geforce I get a problem with the card recognising the EDID data - the EDID is inaccurate and sets the card into a crazy 1920x1080@30 Hz mode which the projector rejects. Using DisplayConfigX I can coerce it into a 720p mode but both the bottom and right edge are being cut off. Upon reboot, I lose that mode and have to mess around again.

On the ATI 9700, the card reads the EDID correctly but I get cropping on the right and bottom.

I spent hours on this and now having read this thread I am convinced this is a hardware issue with the HDMI input on the AE700. I am going to go buy a VGA cable and see if that fixes anything.

Agreed, I should have read the thread! Although this is partly an issue with the Geforce2 MX driver on the Mac, there is clearly a problem on the projector side.

Question: Which is the 'new' firmware and how did you hear about it? My firmware is R1.05 A1.03 P1.04.

Originally posted by matt.hocker
Agreed, I should have read the thread! Although this is partly an issue with the Geforce2 MX driver on the Mac, there is clearly a problem on the projector side.

Question: Which is the 'new' firmware and how did you hear about it? My firmware is R1.05 A1.03 P1.04.

WOW - I think you are the first poster here to report having the new firmware. I guess Panasonic is shipping with it now. You should be able to fix HDMI cropping.

Look in the service menu, at the bottom. In R1.03 the last two rows are settings called "625i" and "525i" with choices (A,B,C,D,E,F)

With firmware R1.05 the setting for 625i is still there but the next line should be HDMI underscan percentage. You should also have some other options us R1.03ers don't have.

I hope this is not a dupe, but I searched as much as I could and did not see any posts with this observation.
I got my AE 700 in November and set up my HT about the middle of December. I am projecting a 106” diag. using the component input. Firmware is version1.03 and the lamp has 83 hours. My sources are a DirecTV HR10-250 HD DVR, and a Toshiba SD-V592S DVD-VCR with up-conversion and HDMI output. I am routing the component signals through a Pioneer VSX-1014TX receiver for switching, and to convert the VHS signal to component. I tried HDMI before I set up the HT but I currently don’t have an HDMI switcher or a long enough cable to use it in the permanent installation.

Here is my observation:
The PaB lines are quite prominent when I first turn the unit on from standby. It does not matter which resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) or input (component, HDMI) I use. The lines also appears with HDTV from the HR10-250. After about 20-30 minutes the PaB lines almost disappear and stop bothering me. The PaB line problem does not occur if I hard power off the unit when not in use. This behavior seems the same as others have reported for VB. Although I have seen some minor VB when turning on from standby, it does not bother me nearly as much as the PaB lines.

Questions:
Will the flicker adjustment help the PaB lines? I see there is a newer firmware version, has this PaB Scan Line problem been addressed in version 1.05? Is it a chip replacement or can it be flashed to upgrade? How can I get and install it?

TraderGordo: I don't want to burst your bubble or anything, but the only options in the service ('EXT') menu (accessed by pressing and holding ENTER from the Option->OSD menu) are:

FREEZE MSG (on)
HD OVERSCAN (off)
RUNTIME PRT (on)
FAN FULLMODE (off)
AUTO SETUP (normal)
SELF CHECK
SERVICE MODE
FLICKER ADJ
SD LEVEL (c)
525p OS (off)
HDCP1 (a)
HDCP2 (on)

There are no HDMI settings. I am looking at this with HDMI active.

Is there another menu I should be looking at?

HD overscan seems new to me compared to my 1.03 firmware. Mind you i havent turned the projector on to check since reading your post. I also dont recall auto setup when i am using HDMI but i might be wrong on that. Since you are using HDMI can you fully test the "hd overscan" setting please.

I assume you are aware that the hdmi input (with the original firmware) is cropping about 20 or so pixels of the vertical. If you arent aware of this why not !! :) So for all of us try and see if you can remove all cropping of the hdmi signal. Perhaps there is no cropping by default now. Turn it on and experiment a little. Thanks.

OK, here are the results from playing with the various options.

FREEZE MSG probably just takes away the 'FREEZE' red message when freezing the screen. Didn't bother to test.

HD OVERSCAN actually makes the overscan WORSE - it shaves another 20 pixels off all 4 sides.

RUNTIME PRT is ON and can be turned OFF but has no visible effect. What does it mean?

FAN FULLMODE is OFF and can be turned ON but I didn't want to mess with the fan, I like it the way it is - quiet!

AUTO SETUP can be set to 'SPECIAL' which doesn't seem to have an effect, but that's because AUTO SETUP is not available in HDMI mode, only PC mode.

SELF CHECK provides a bunch of status data, such as the firmware revisions, the video mode (the annoying '750/60p'), IRIS OK, FAN OK, TEMP OK, TEMP1 155, TEMP2 180, an additional TEMP1 and 2 which read 255 (no sensor?) LAMP OK, 2000H OK, Total hours, RESET 0... etc.

SERVICE MODE gives a series of test screens to look at. Note that you can choose which colour and then cycle through the test screens for that colour - it uses all 4 arrows. I didn't notice this initially!.

FLICKER ADJ lets you mess with the flicker settings for each colour in both DESK and CEILING. Oddly, I can't get green to be fully flicker free. I find the best way to use this menu is to look away from the screen and use peripheral vision in addition to looking directly at the screen.

SD LEVEL can be set to A through F but I don't understand what it means and there is no visible difference on HDMI. Any tips?

525p OS can be ON or OFF but I'm not using that mode so it has no effect.

HDCP1 can be A through G or 0 through 2 but has no effect as my signal doesn't carry HDCP.
HDCP2 can be ON or OFF but no effect for the same reason.

I held down the ENTER button on this menu but only got RS-232C SEL (which was defaulted to RS-232C not D-SUB, the other option) and FH MODE which can be ON or OFF but makes no visible difference.

Bottom line, if I didn't know better, I would think that the Panasonic engineers got the problem backwards - their 'fix' actually makes things worse.

Unless there is something that I'm missing? Another secret menu?

Where is the overscan % modification supposed to be?

MATT

So "HD OVERSCAN" doesn't lead you to some other dropdown menu??

No, sadly it doesn't. It just takes the screen and zooms in, cropping even more off of the edges. Hence making the overscan worse. Sigh.

I even tried holding down the ENTER button on it but it took me to the aforementioned menu that had no overscan settings.

Just got back from CES show. I spoke to the people at Panasonic about the probems we have reported. As reported they do have a fix for the
white flash issue with the new firmware. I asked about other issues including the cropping problem. The person with whom I spoke told me that the only issues fixed by the new firmware was the white flash problem and that the cropping problem was not fixed. He did not think that there
were plans to fix it. I stated that many AVS forum members and others
have found this to be a serious problem and that it should be able to be
fixed with new firmware. I do know that they monitor the forums and with
some more push something might be done.

Regarding the other problems.

Peak A boo---I was told it can not be fixed with firmware and will not be
fixed until next model. Same for the VB problem. It has to do with the
Panels I was told.

I believe the next model will not come out until next fall.

Regarding upgrading the firmware. It cannot be done at home. Special
cables are needed and the unit must be opened. Panasonic has something in the works for those with the White Flash problem. Keep
letting them know that we are also unhappy about the cropping problem

Originally posted by rwestley

...Regarding the other problems.

Peak A boo---I was told it can not be fixed with firmware and will not be
fixed until next model. Same for the VB problem. It has to do with the
Panels I was told...

I believe the next model will not come out until next fall.


Thanks for the answers rwestley!
I can live with it. As long as I warm up, or power off between uses, I still have a $5000 picture for <$2200!

Can zoom and/or lens-shift affect pixel alignment?

Thanks for your time.
lpr

Originally posted by matt.hocker
RUNTIME PRT is ON and can be turned OFF but has no visible effect. What does it mean?

Maybe "PRT" means "Projector Run Time" but I don't know what it means either.

This might be good news or maybe not :) It may mean that the default setting for HDMI is now no overscan. So if you want to create the default situation which we have in 1.03 you must turn HD OVERSCAN to ON. So in 1.05 they have fixed the problem.

The problem with 1.03 was there is no way to turn the overscan off.

When you switch hd overscan on does it crops all 4 sides correct ? Can you tell if in the default off mode if you are getting perfect 1:1 1280 by 720 pixel mapping? You didnt mention if you use a computer to drive it. Your post while useful left me a little confused. But thanks for looking into this.

Not knowing what 1.03 users have seen exactly (other posts are somewhat vague) I can only comment on what I see. With HDMI and overscan 'off' there are about 20 pixels missing from the bottom (essentially overscanning on the bottom), so it looks like 1280x700. But since the panel is 1280x720, this results in Moire patterns due to resolution scaling.

I attribute this to the projector misunderstanding the 720p signal as '750p' and trying to compensate in some way. If the projector would just recognise the signal as 720p I am convinced it would work. But I have messed around with all the low level settings on the PC (Mac) side and have had no luck, just worse overscan or no image at all.

Overscan 'on' makes matters worse, overscanning on all 4 sides.

I hope this makes it clearer.

It sounds to me that this particular issue hasnt been fixed then. The general conclusion here is that we are infact getting 1:1 pixel mapping but with cropping of the vert. This is easy to see when you feed it a windows desktop. You can also evenly divide those 20 or so pixels between top and bottom using picture shift fyi.

Matt, please let us know if you see any white flashes while using HDMI.

I have watched a number of movies and have used my Mac via HDMI, and so far have seen no white flashes.

Originally posted by matt.hocker RUNTIME PRT is ON and can be turned OFF but has no visible effect. What does it mean?


For me its sounds more like "Runtime Protect"

So, after 2000 hours(or so) you will get a warn message to buy a new bulb, or projector will shutdown after few minutes, to prevent damage by bulb explosion, or so,...


greetz,
fazz


BTW: sorry for my bad english

Originally posted by matt.hocker
I have watched a number of movies and have used my Mac via HDMI, and so far have seen no white flashes.
yo matt, with your hdmi cropping issues, have you actually tried changing the 'position' settings? when using HDMI, i never saw the projector actually get the placement of the image correct - was always off to the left or right.

if you havent, try moving it around and see if you can get the whole lot on the panel.

also you should never see any white flashes - it's a hdcp thing which your htpc wont do.