Originally posted by adumare
Hello,

The PC works great, I see no image quality issues (I'm sure there are some but it looks fine to me). The Sat box on the other hand does not look so great. The picture is very crisp and the colour seem fine to me, but here's the problem: Say someone has a page with writing on it and the lines are fairly horizontal (doesn't matter if you can read them or not) when the page is moved, the lines blur, and I mean really blur it hurts my head and the blurriness is bigger then the page... it's almost like the page leaves tracers... anyway is what I'm seeing vertical bending or is it something else, and is there some way to fix it? It is possible the problem is my sat signal or receiver since I got the receiver at the same time as the projector, but I think the problem is the projector.

Thanks
--Andrew

720P or 1080i?
With 1080i you might be experiencing motion deinterlacing articats.
Are these indeed HD or scaled SD?
Is the movement vertical or horizontal?
If it is vertical it might be peekaboo scanlines. This would be apparent as well to a greater or lesser degree dependent on the quality of scaling with your HTPC versus the AE700 scaling.

ted

It seems to happen with both 720p and 1080i I see it on the PBS HD stations so I assume it's full HD 720p but I could be wrong. The motion I believe happens in all directions but I'd have to check on that. I know that it happens when the lines are vertical or horizontal, because it happened on a seen with a bridge (vertical lines) and to the side of someone's face (they had glasses so they had 1 horizontal line). I'm not using a HTPC in this case, I'm using the Bell (or in the states Dish Network) receiver. My HTPC with DVD's looks great! I should mention that my projector is about 11 Feet back projecting about 93 inch screen. Is my projector zoomed in too much?

Thanks
--Andrew

Official settings for Lee Filters "Light Salmon" #109: take out lots of pink. It's up to the individual user's state of color-blindness, taste and whether they like warm pix or colder ones. When the picture looks Fair And Balanced to you, that's your setting.

I've tried many, but +10 on both G and B contrast works OK, with maybe just a tad of minus-brightness for the R channel (claws back some brightness, too).

Every film is different, so these will vary from time to time.

AUSSIE BOB NEWS ALERT: A sort-of workaround for the SHUTTER junkies here. Disable OSD in the OPTIONS menu. When you run your overtures or your entr'actes, switch away from the input you're using. E.g. if you use YUV, switch to COMPOSITE. When the music ends, switch back to YUV. Perfect cut from black. Tried this with West side Story last night and it added greatly to the movie (never seen it before: fabulous - alive, bright, stunning - with the anamorphic lens cutting out the gray bars)

Warning: has drawbacks e.g. exactly what the projector's doing at other times can be a mystery.

Originally posted by adumare
It seems to happen with both 720p and 1080i I see it on the PBS HD stations so I assume it's full HD 720p but I could be wrong. The motion I believe happens in all directions but I'd have to check on that. I know that it happens when the lines are vertical or horizontal, because it happened on a seen with a bridge (vertical lines) and to the side of someone's face (they had glasses so they had 1 horizontal line). I'm not using a HTPC in this case, I'm using the Bell (or in the states Dish Network) receiver. My HTPC with DVD's looks great! I should mention that my projector is about 11 Feet back projecting about 93 inch screen. Is my projector zoomed in too much?

Thanks
--Andrew

As far as zooming I would say no - mine is about 12'6' back and I'm displaying a larger image with 2.35:1 material and about the same with 16:9. I hope to go with a Prismasonic when the money is good.

When I was asking about vertical vs horizontal I was referring to the direction of the motion, I don't know if I made myself clear - if their are differences then it might be peekaboo.

ted

Originally posted by TheLittleBoy
I think I have all 3 versions : 1.03, 1.04, 1.05 :)

The firmware version is the first R code, so you have R1.05. You should have no problem with white flashes but no one is sure what R1.07 does yet. I received an email from Heartland services, as have others, that claim R1.07 has some color adjustments, but evidently they're not too clear on exactly what those changes are.

After reading some of the recent comments in this thread about long throw distances dramatically decreasing the projected brightness of the screen image, I am a bit spooked.
Am I in for a problem? Will my screen image be disappointingly to dim?
I will have my AE-700 in a hush box about 20 feet from a 58X104 Da-Lite HCCV screen with masking.
I really am committed now because my theater is well under construction, but the hush box is not built, so I could theoretically move it a "little" closer to the screen but would rather not as it would compromise the looks of the room.

Craig

Aussie Bob...

are these changes for the Dynamic setting? Thank you

Hey Craig

First, the AE700 is a fairly quiet projector. You probably won't need a hush box.

Second, at 20', its still fairly bright projected on a 58 x 104 using a glass beaded dalite screen. Don't know how that relates to a HCCV screen.

Does the firmware fix cropping over HDMI? I'm thinking not, but just thought I'd ask.

Moving a projector forward for a brighter picture usually means a ceiling mount, what are the downsides in doing this?

The manual states "Generally, the maximum picture quality is obtained when the lens is moved to the center (horizontally and vertically)".

How about it Aussie Bob and other ceiling mounted users? (Please -2nd time I asked this question)

How is the lens shifted and why in doing this does it degrade the picture quality? Are we just talking about keystone pixel clipping or something else?

In calculating for a ceiling mount, I would have to have the lens shifted down 57% (63% maximum) for my 88" ceiling height. Wondering what image degradation I would introduce for a brighter picture than a rear room shelf mount? Any ideas, thank you for your help?

Thanks guys... I guess I will be finding out how well it performs at this distance... hopefully not the hard way.

Craig

I've read from a french forum that the color filter that cine4home uses is:

heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)

Here's more info on this filter.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/product/21866/HEKR677/REG/111

http://www.leefilters.com/LPFD.asp?PageID=354

Interesting to compare the heliopan and aussiebob famous lee light salmon #109.

kg...

People have found that using the lens shift shows no degradation in picture quality. What you want to avoid is using the keystone function. You should be ok using lens shift for your application.

My question is whether this is a problem that occurs with only a certain amount of users, or if this is the case with all users who combine these units? Also has a fix been found.

I have an ae700 and a Direct TV DTC100 satellite that I am using as a terrestrial off/air antenna. The box is set at 1080i and 60Hz. I have hooked up the following:

dtc100 & ae700, rgb: doesn't work

to troubleshoot i've tried the following to see if either device was broken:
dtc100 & ae700, svideo: works
computer & ae700, rgb: works
dtc100 & monitor, rgb: works

Therefore both devices work. Is this is a problem that occurs with only a certain amount of users, or if this is the case with all users who combine these units?

I have the same equipment and the DTC 100 does not work with the AE700. Perhaps the DTC 100 is too ancient. Maybe using a transcoder which converts RGB to component will work. Anyone who has the DTC 100 tried this?

Well, I just ordered a KR6-81EF filter. So we'll see how it works. I'll post results when a complete Smart III calibration is run.

I tried the DTC100 also with no luck. Its possible the 700u does not have a HDTV decoder on the RGB input.

Any one else have any luck with another 1080I source on this input?

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I tried the DTC100 also with no luck. Its possible the 700u does not have a HDTV decoder on the RGB input.

Any one else have any luck with another 1080I source on this input?

i'm trying to find that out myself...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=506493

anybody?

Oops! How about the VGA output from an RCA DTC-210? Will that work with the AE-700? I was just about to order one, so "Houston, we may have a problem". (The DVI out of the 210 will drive another projector in my system. I have verified that the 210 HDTV receiver will output simultaneously from the VGA and DVI ports).

Originally posted by bradbissell
Well, I just ordered a KR6-81EF filter. So we'll see how it works. I'll post results when a complete Smart III calibration is run.

Way to be a pioneer, Brad. Please let us know what happens! It would be great if you can try calibrating with Video and Dynamic modes.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I tried the DTC100 also with no luck. Its possible the 700u does not have a HDTV decoder on the RGB input.

Any one else have any luck with another 1080I source on this input?

According to the manual, the AE700 should be able to do 1080i/720p through VGA @ 60Hz.

Mode 1125 (1080)/60i
display resolution : 1920x1080i
33.8 kHz H
60 Hz V
dot clock: 74.6 MHz
Format: YPbPr/PC/HDMI

Mode:WIDE720
resolution: 1280x720
45.1 kHz H
60.1 Hz V
dot clock: 76.5 MHz
Format: PC

Interesting. I dont think it has a de interlacer in the rgb path. Maybe Im wrong but it does not work here on my end:)

Anyone having any luck with 1080I. Not 540P but 1080I. Thanks!

By the way, for the money this is one hell of a projector:)

could you convert vga to component without a transcoder and get it to work

this could be dealbreaker for me on a 2nd unit downstairs...

You will need a transcoder. The DTC100 does not offer both rgb/component outputs.

Dont write this off until we hear from others. Maybe theres a reason its not working for me.

You will need a transcoder. The DTC100 does not offer both rgb/component outputs.

Dont write this off until we hear from others. Maybe theres a reason its not working for me. Id like to hear from others if they are able to display 1080I.

I know that you can adjust grayscale on the AE700, but can you adjust the red and green in the color decoder along with their tints?

As far as I have seen you can not adjust the color decoder. Via AVIA my color decoder is correct. No offset across the board.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
You will need a transcoder. The DTC100 does not offer both rgb/component outputs.

Dont write this off until we hear from others. Maybe theres a reason its not working for me. Id like to hear from others if they are able to display 1080I.


yeah, i'd really like to know because my basement theater only has a vga cable, s-video and i think one or two runs of rg6 in the ceiling (don't laugh). ;)

fisching a hdmi cable or set of components would be a total drag

i want to upgrade, but if this thing can't do hd through the vga port, maybe i'll wait for a 720p dlp and then i can have both dlp and lcd :D

Originally posted by bradbissell
As far as I have seen you can not adjust the color decoder. Via AVIA my color decoder is correct. No offset across the board.


Brad, checking with my Accupel HD signal generator and making a few adjustments to color and tint, the green and blue is spot on.(unlike my Sony GWIII)

My reason for asking is if you go add a red filter in front of the lens to help remove the cyan shift is very dark scenes due to the light leakage in LCDs, then you're also going to shift how the set displays blue, green, yellow, magenta... unless there is some way to adjust the color decoder.


It would appear that this would cause more harm than good.

Thoughts anyone???:confused: :confused: :confused:

That is taken care of in the gray scale calibration. You are adjusting the Green, Blue and Red channels to correct for the color shift due to the filter.

kg2kg,

You're making a mistake in trying to fine tune your system by application of too much theory. The best way is to try out what you want to do somehow or other and get an eyeball's idea of what it's going to look like.

Having said that...

If by "how is the lens shifted"" you mean "what are the mechanics of shifting the lens?", you just grab the joystick on the front and move it around until the picture is where you want it to be. The movement extremities describe a "diamond" pattern, not a circle. Maximum "down" shift does not permit you to also use maximum "left" or "right" shift, and vice versa. Geometry isn't distorted (very much) when shifting: the picture stays rectangular. This assumes the projector is perpendicular to the screen, or parallel with the horizon, whichever way to want to think about it. Any degradation in quality is miniscule. You won't notice it. Don't obsess too much about it or you'll have a nervous breakdown.

If you mean "how to the optics work?", I don't know, myself. "Very cleverly", I'd guess. There are some things that I just accept as: "it works".

If the projector is NOT perpendicular to the screen, then you will incur keystoning. This is when you use the KEYSTONE menu to restore rectangularity to the picture by dialling in the amount if keystone correction - vertical and/or horizontal - that you require.

Thinking about keystone correction: many say it badly affects picture quality. I'm not so sure how bad it really is. The picture passes through lots and lots of interpolation and extrapolation algorithms twixt source and screen. Seems to me that one more - keystone correction - wouldn't hurt an image that's been already pulled apart and put back together again umpteen times. I'm not claiming it wouldn't affect it at all, just that I wonder whether keystone correction is the Bogey Man that everyone thinks it is (not that I use it myself)?

I have been trying to get 1080i at both 50 & 60hz via the VGA port to work using powerstrip with no luck so far.

I sort of get a picture but it is broken up into diagonal lines (bits of icon) etc....it's hard to explain.

The good news however is that last night I was almost ready to give up when I got (1080)/60i mode to come up.

I have a radeon 9000 card using latest catalyst drivers. Going from memory, I got into the advanced section of the driver control tabs and selected (i think) the Display tab. I clicked the monitor that was active and a section came up that says "force 1080i" or something similar. Suddenly the AE700 flickered and the desk icons etc were much smaller and text was no where as clear as 720wide mode.

I went to the ae700 menu item that tells you what signal it is detecting and it said 1080i(60).

So, the good news is that the ae700 CAN take this rez via the VGA (PC) port .....it must be just a matter of getting the timings just right. Something I can't replicate using powerstrip.

If only I could 108i @ 50hz i'd be happy. No choice to select 50hz through the drivers.......i'm in PAL land.

Hope this gives you some info/hope. It CAN be done !!!

Regards......Tex.

Yesterday afternoon I was watching a movie on the projector and everything was working just fine.

Today, I go to get things running and I get no picture at all. I have tried bypassing my receiver by plugging directly into the wall. I've checked all my connections and they seem to be fine (were yesterday anyway, can't see whay they would have changed). I've tried just using the composite input as well and no dice... so anything I'm missing?

I did have this happen once before when I was switching between 720p and 480p but this is odd since the last thing I was watching was also 480p.

Does anyone know of a reset sequence to take the projector back to factory defaults? Just thought I'd give everything a try!

Originally posted by texass44
I have been trying to get 1080i at both 50 & 60hz via the VGA port to work using powerstrip with no luck so far.

I sort of get a picture but it is broken up into diagonal lines (bits of icon) etc....it's hard to explain.

The good news however is that last night I was almost ready to give up when I got (1080)/60i mode to come up.

I have a radeon 9000 card using latest catalyst drivers. Going from memory, I got into the advanced section of the driver control tabs and selected (i think) the Display tab. I clicked the monitor that was active and a section came up that says "force 1080i" or something similar. Suddenly the AE700 flickered and the desk icons etc were much smaller and text was no where as clear as 720wide mode.

I went to the ae700 menu item that tells you what signal it is detecting and it said 1080i(60).

So, the good news is that the ae700 CAN take this rez via the VGA (PC) port .....it must be just a matter of getting the timings just right. Something I can't replicate using powerstrip.

If only I could 108i @ 50hz i'd be happy. No choice to select 50hz through the drivers.......i'm in PAL land.

Hope this gives you some info/hope. It CAN be done !!!

Regards......Tex.

that's cool, but i'm still not sure if that means it will accept an hd signal through a stb though...where you can not manipulate the timings

that's what i'm most interested in...can you send an hd signal to the ae700 via a stb via the vga port

I can't get the 12V trigger output to work with my Elite Home Series screen. I think I may have gotten a bad trigger unit from Elite (it was blowing the AC fuse in the screen control) so I exchanged it for a new one, but even without hooking up the screen, the projector 12V output only has 10.6 volts when the projector is on. I want to make sure I am using the right plug before I try the new trigger unit.

Is anyone else using the trigger output to control their screen? If so, do you use a mono or stereo 1/8" plug in the projector? Is the 12V tip-to-sleeve or tip-to-ring? The manual does not specify which plug to use.

I've ordered the AE700 to replace my long-overdue-for-retirement Sony 400Q PJ in my dedicated HT. I have component and S-video cable run to my projector from my AV stack in the HT, which is a remodeled attic. My other current AV components (Pioneer DV-09 and Sunfire Theater Grand pre-pro) are also vintage 1999; I'll be adding Comcast HD through the Motorola 6412 DVR.

Both my PVR HD and DVD video will be component-in to the Sunfire, with a component connection to the AE700, at least initially. If I can get high enough quality PQ through component, I'd like to not need to run an additional HDMI cable from the PVR to the PJ, unless that's just sacrificing too much PQ. (Didn't plan for ANOTHER form of connection/cabling 6 years ago when I ran all the wiring under the floor.)

Is there a consensus out there about component vs. HDMI as far as PQ with HDTV on the AE700? I'm using component with my other HD-PVRs, into a Sony CRT HDTV and a Sharp LCD HD panel, w/o any PQ issues, FWIW.

Im hooking up my laptop to my PLV-Z2 projector and need the program that automtically sets the resolution to make it clean and clear, i would like to read through this entire thread and figure it out.. but i dont have hte time. i would really appreciate if you could post it.. thanks

that's cool, but i'm still not sure if that means it will accept an hd signal through a stb though...where you can not manipulate the timings

that's what i'm most interested in...can you send an hd signal to the ae700 via a stb via the vga port
GDay Billymac,

Sorry, I don't have a HiDef STB yet so can't test this option via VGA.

I'd love to know what the timing values were when I got it working so that I can replicate those timings via powerstrip. It may give me hint how to get 1080i(50hz) working over VGA.

If I get a STB I'll try it out and post back the results.

Remember I'm in Australia so I probably have a slightly different machine having the SCART input on the back etc.....I was hoping that would mean my AE700 was a bit more sympathetic to 50hz being Europen (SCART) based but no such luck !!

Tex.

Originally posted by texass44
GDay Billymac,

Sorry, I don't have a HiDef STB yet so can't test this option via VGA.

I'd love to know what the timing values were when I got it working so that I can replicate those timings via powerstrip. It may give me hint how to get 1080i(50hz) working over VGA.

If I get a STB I'll try it out and post back the results.

Remember I'm in Australia so I probably have a slightly different machine having the SCART input on the back etc.....I was hoping that would mean my AE700 was a bit more sympathetic to 50hz being Europen (SCART) based but no such luck !!

Tex.

Any particular reason why you are using powerstrip with your radeon? Did you try the method mentioned on page 1 of this thread first? (the AE700 has a fantastic auto setup menu option for VGA input which "discovers" the correct timings for your particular input device)

The AE700 does accept a HD signal through the RGB input from a "MY HD" TV recording computer card and the picture is fantastic! But it will not play from the DTC 100. I only get a picture from HBO HD for a split second.

I use a combination DVD player/HDTV receiver (OTA/cable) --LG LST3510A--. It can output a wide variety of resolution (1080i,720p,480p,480i, etc..). Last night, I checked to see if it could do 1080i@60Hz through VGA. It works fine! I verified this on the AE700, which displays a signal of 1125/60Hz(meaning 1080i@60Hz). I checked for 720p and it also worked.

I am not sure why the AE700 is not detecting your signal at 1080i.

sweet! thanks beocop and db!!!

Aussie Bob-
Just got a sample of the Lee Light Salmon #109 filter and it is really really pink. Is your sample also really pink? The reason I ask this is becasue it is way redder than the CC40R that I currently have on my 700 and from the look of it it would block much more blue and green than the CC40R which I have determined to be too strong a filter.

I'll have to wait until I get my 81EF filter and see how that compares, but as of right now, I'm thinking that the CC40R is the better choice for higher contrast than the #109.

Originally posted by bradbissell
Aussie Bob-
Just got a sample of the Lee Light Salmon #109 filter and it is really really pink. Is your sample also really pink? The reason I ask this is becasue it is way redder than the CC40R that I currently have on my 700 and from the look of it it would block much more blue and green than the CC40R which I have determined to be too strong a filter.

I'll have to wait until I get my 81EF filter and see how that compares, but as of right now, I'm thinking that the CC40R is the better choice for higher contrast than the #109.

I was playing with a colour temp meter borrowed from the plant yesterday - just trying to determine what filter I might use to calibrate. I chose to compare the Lee filter CC30 vs the #109. I compared them both in the VIDEO and DYNAMIC modes. It was interesting that the #109 with the DYNAMIC mode dropped the colour temp to about 6300K where the CC30 with the VIDEO mode did the same. Not that I've spent any real time with calibration - probably will buy the SMART III at some point in the near future.

I toyed with the VIDEO mode for a bit and was able to bring it to about 6550K but I believe the axis were somewhat off.

Personally I don't like the DYNAMIC mode much as I believe it is far too sharp (even with sharpness set as low as it will go there is too much high frequency noise) and by eye I'm convinced the GAMMA is non linear at the extremes adding a harshness I do not like. I chose the CC30 vs the 40 because of the extra light it affords.

ted

Anybody know what auto-setup "special" does?

I have a Dish model 6000 and I am running vga from it to the ae700. Thbe picture is actually sharper using the 1080i instead of the 720p. I do not know why, but everybody who sees the difference agrees.

I'm not positive about this, but thought I read somewhere that Dish network outputs all its HD signals at 1080i. If that is the case, then you'd be downconverting at 720p.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
kg2kg,

You're making a mistake in trying to fine tune your system by application of too much theory. The best way is to try out what you want to do somehow or other and get an eyeball's idea of what it's going to look like.

Hello Aussie Bob,

Your lens shift info was right on target.

You are right in too much theory! My wife calls it - Husband overkill! What I wanted to do was get comfortable with ceiling mounting and moving it closer to the screen.

Moving projector from 18 feet on back wall to 12 feet ceiling mount should do...

Upside - Brighter image, much shorter and thus cheaper cables, change to a grey painted screen for better blacks and saves back wall for other things.

Downside - ears will be closer to projector so I plan to put it on an insulated open box and cover up the cables and are you ready for the drum roll... start the build out and try it as designed!

Thanks again for your help, Kevin

kg, the pj is so quiet, i would make the hushbox a low priority until you hang this baby up there and see

it's right above my head with a 9" arm hanging from the ceiling and i don't hear it at all

i've got just under 9' ceiling

yes its super quiet..so quiet infact that i need to build a new computer becouse the present one is louder than the 700. and this is considered one of the quiter rigs with large fans at slow speeds.

I just shipped my AE700 to Heartland Services to get the firmware upgrade so I will let you know when I get it back. I was not using HMDI, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that.

I was about to take my projector to the local Panasonic repair guy today to have him fix the screen brightness shift problem I have been experiencing, but luckily I called the Panasonic support line and asked if they could install the firmware upgrade for me. They told me to ship it to Heartland, so I am actually "killing two birds with one stone." I will get my brightness problem fixed (I hope) and get the latest firmware upgrade at the same time.

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Any particular reason why you are using powerstrip with your radeon? Did you try the method mentioned on page 1 of this thread first? (the AE700 has a fantastic auto setup menu option for VGA input which "discovers" the correct timings for your particular input device)
I'm pretty sure the "Auto Setup" option was greyed out when I was trying to feed it 1080i.....I'll double check but I'm almost certain. Hence I had to try powerstrip.

The sort of good news is using my previous method (forcing 1080i 60hz) via Driver Tabs as mentioned previously, when I get into Powerstrip it tells me what the timings are. So I save these setting as a base and then moved the picture up/down & left/right etc to centre it via Powerstrip.

I then used these settings as a basis to try for 50hz. I unchecked the "real time" changes box in Powerstip and just changed the vertical frequency to 25 instead of 30 and pretty much left everything the same. I clicked the apply box and suddenly I had an image (way off screen) reported to be 1125(50i). I then fiddled a bit as before to centre the image as best I could using the image shift arrows in powerstrip.

I have noticed a small band (about the height of the Windows task bar) at the bottom of the screen that I can not get to display any picture on. It is like someone has placed a black mask over the video display. It looks like it is another cropping/masking issue but it only affects the bottom. I can get the image to the full extremes of the left right & top. This is very annoying....so close and yet so far.

I don't have the timings handy at the moment, if anyone would like them let me know and I'll past them in a post.

I'm using latest Catalyst Drivers, latest Powerstrip & AE700 has f/ware 1.5.

Apologies if any of my ramblings make no sense, I'm pretty much a noob to all this.

Originally posted by Vangeloff
Im hooking up my laptop to my PLV-Z2 projector and need the program that automtically sets the resolution to make it clean and clear, i would like to read through this entire thread and figure it out.. but i dont have hte time. i would really appreciate if you could post it.. thanks


is there any reply at all i can get to my question, please..

Hello,

I've got my PT AE700 for 2 Months now and recently connected it to my new htpc with dvi/hdmi connection.
I adjusted the flickering in the hidden menu and see absolutely no vertical banding, but the image is somehow flickering. When I look close to the screen I see like horizontal lines (of about 1-2 pixels width) moving slowly downwards (they don't really do, they just appear to). It is best to see when you move your head downwards slowly.
This is quite annoying and I spent several hours trying to tweak it with flicker adjust. It became better, but is still visible. When going to service mode (where you see the r/g/b test patterns) these lines appear mostly in green, in red and blue they are not so apparent.
When I use normal VGA input of my notebook I don't have this flickering and horizontal line "wandering". It's only over hdmi, which gives in general a much better picture than vga. The hdmi-cable is a 20ft Oehlbach cable (a german brand) which costed over 300 u$ and should not be the source of the problem.

Do you have the same problem? I've never read anything about it.

I hopy someone can help. My model is made in Japan in Nov 2004 with Firmware 1.03. Would a firmware-upgrade help?

best regards,
mariachi76

Does anyone know if there is a cure for the sparkles that sometimes appear on the screen? It's kinda like a sheen on top of the image. It usually happens in brighter images and it makes the image look artificial. I'm projecting the AE700 onto a Da-lite 106" Cinema Contour HCCV Screen.

Thanks for any input.

-KostaVan

Sparkles are usually caused by a cable problem. What type of setup are you using and how long is the cable.

Originally posted by Vangeloff
is there any reply at all i can get to my question, please..

Why do you think you will get good answers by posting Z2 questions in a AE700 thread?

Originally posted by mariachi76
Hello,

I've got my PT AE700 for 2 Months now and recently connected it to my new htpc with dvi/hdmi connection.
I adjusted the flickering in the hidden menu and see absolutely no vertical banding, but the image is somehow flickering. When I look close to the screen I see like horizontal lines (of about 1-2 pixels width) moving slowly downwards (they don't really do, they just appear to). It is best to see when you move your head downwards slowly.
This is quite annoying and I spent several hours trying to tweak it with flicker adjust. It became better, but is still visible. When going to service mode (where you see the r/g/b test patterns) these lines appear mostly in green, in red and blue they are not so apparent.
When I use normal VGA input of my notebook I don't have this flickering and horizontal line "wandering". It's only over hdmi, which gives in general a much better picture than vga. The hdmi-cable is a 20ft Oehlbach cable (a german brand) which costed over 300 u$ and should not be the source of the problem.

Do you have the same problem? I've never read anything about it.

I hopy someone can help. My model is made in Japan in Nov 2004 with Firmware 1.03. Would a firmware-upgrade help?

best regards,
mariachi76

you need the new firmeware 1.05 and 1.07

kokken

rwestley....

Thanks for the reply.

I am using a Monster Quad Shield Coax Cable from Dish to Voom receiver @ 140ft and 25ft RAM Elec. HDMI/DVI cable from box to projector. What do you think?

I was searching for info about the Panasonic firmware upgrade and I noticed that Panasonic is now listing the PJ as model number
"PT-AE700U-EC"

Is this different than the original "PT-AE700U" that most of us purchased the last few months? If so, what is the difference?

Anybody have any info?

Thanks,

Steve

I have read posts saying that is the European model

Originally posted by kukken
you need the new firmeware 1.05 and 1.07


Hi!

Are you really sure it will help? I mean, I don't want to send it to a service center and eventually pay money for nothing...

best regards
mariachi76

Anyone with this projector use the trigger to trigger a screen going up or down? Anyone know if that would work?

there has been discussion about the trigger - supposedly the trigger is non standard on the panasonic 700 and does not work with some screens. People have come up with a work around using a 3rd product though. search

Originally posted by rhwimmers
Anyone with this projector use the trigger to trigger a screen going up or down? Anyone know if that would work?

I am working the setup with an Elite screen. What a PITA! Check this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=504591

Once I get it working I will post the full solution.

I hope this is the right thread for this question, as I didn't want to start a whole new AE700 thread:

Can this projector accept 2 component video inputs? One for DVD and one for HD? I'm using an Infocus X1, thinking of upgrading to the Panasonic, but don't want to run new cables because they're fished up through the walls, into the attic and down through the ceiling (which was a pain, since the wall had a lot of insulation to go through).

My X1 HD component is hooked through the VGA input and DVD component is hooked through the standard component input.

Can you display HD through the AE700's VGA input, and if so, do you need to buy an adaptor like you do with the X1 or does it come with the projector?

Thanks

Originally posted by zxlr8
I have a Dish model 6000 and I am running vga from it to the ae700. Thbe picture is actually sharper using the 1080i instead of the 720p. I do not know why, but everybody who sees the difference agrees.

That has been my experience with every projector I've used in my Dish Network setup. Using 1080i has always looked best, at least to me.

Originally posted by ChrisDuncan
Can you display HD through the AE700's VGA input, and if so, do you need to buy an adaptor like you do with the X1 or does it come with the projector?

Thanks

Yes and yes. Though I would think you could use the one that came with the X1.

Working out the kinks on my 700 and HTPC running zoomplayer, sonic, and ffdshow. I cannot find where you select the 720 Wide on the projector menu. When I access the menu "SVGA" apears at the bottom of the picture menu. Color and Tint are blacked out so that they cannot be accessed. I have the onscreen display for FFDSHOW working, and showing 1280 x 720. Am I doing something wrong that would cause "SVGA" to show up, and also that I cannot adjust the color or tint in the menu?

I'm a newbie to the forum. Just hooked up my AE700U last weekend in time for the Superbowl and it looked fantastic. However, I fired it up last night and was shocked to see horrible yellow splotches everywhere in the picture ( High Def channels and normal channels.) It appears this is only a problem with TV viewing, did not see the same effect with DVD. The yellow wasn't exclusive to flesh tones, it was all over the screen.

I'm running HDMI to the projector through a Geffen switcher, both my Denon DVD player and HD Tivo are connected. Any ideas on a fix? It was working perfectly for a week and no matter what I did i couldn't seem to fix it - but I have not done any service menu tweaking as of yet...

rexracer19

Something up but I'm not sure that its the projector. If it was the projector, you'd see the yellow splotches on all content, not just TV viewing.

Check your connections first.

Do you unplug or flip the power switch on the back to the off position when its not in use? If not, it would be worth checking the flicker setting.

Originally posted by rexracer19
I'm a newbie to the forum. Just hooked up my AE700U last weekend in time for the Superbowl and it looked fantastic. However, I fired it up last night and was shocked to see horrible yellow splotches everywhere in the picture ( High Def channels and normal channels.) It appears this is only a problem with TV viewing, did not see the same effect with DVD. The yellow wasn't exclusive to flesh tones, it was all over the screen.

I'm running HDMI to the projector through a Geffen switcher, both my Denon DVD player and HD Tivo are connected. Any ideas on a fix? It was working perfectly for a week and no matter what I did i couldn't seem to fix it - but I have not done any service menu tweaking as of yet...

I'd check you HD source. Hook it up to anothr TV and see if the problem is still there. Try using other cables (if you have them) and check your connections. I don't think it's the projector since DVD plays correctly.

Originally posted by bapenguin
Yes and yes. Though I would think you could use the one that came with the X1.

That doesn't work. You get an all green image. It has something to do with RGB vs YPbPr. VGA is basically RGB I think. Some projectors, including the X1 do something to allow either YPbPr or RGB to come in on the VGA connector. The AE700 doesn't do this. Only real VGA (as from a PC video card) works "properly" on the AE700 VGA connector.

well, I just tried out the Lee Filters Salmon 109 trick, I used kongs settings off dyamic. I just don't see much improvement. Not over my Avia Tweaked cinema 3 settings. There may be a SMIDGEN more black detail...but I don't see much difference in contrast.

The AE700 is about 14 feet from a 88" screen at low lamp mode on a DIY blackout cloth screen. Maybe something I'm doing wrong?

Originally posted by bapenguin
well, I just tried out the Lee Filters Salmon 109 trick, I used kongs settings off dyamic. I just don't see much improvement. Not over my Avia Tweaked cinema 3 settings. There may be a SMIDGEN more black detail...but I don't see much difference in contrast.

The AE700 is about 14 feet from a 88" screen at low lamp mode on a DIY blackout cloth screen. Maybe something I'm doing wrong?

I believe the main idea of using the filter and Dynamic mode is to get a brighter picture while still maintaining temperature balance. Have you tried AVIA using Dynamic mode?

I'm a newbie to the forum. Just hooked up my AE700U last weekend in time for the Superbowl and it looked fantastic. However, I fired it up last night and was shocked to see horrible yellow splotches everywhere in the picture ( High Def channels and normal channels.) It appears this is only a problem with TV viewing, did not see the same effect with DVD. The yellow wasn't exclusive to flesh tones, it was all over the screen.

rexracer19 ,
For whatever its worth, I had a problem like you mention at work. My monitor screen went yellow ( you could still see everything but it was as if you had yellow sunglasses on your eyes).
It was a bad VGA cable. I got that changed and the picture was fine.

So it might be a bad cable. My cable had been connected to my computer monitor for years and the computer was never switched off at work. Once day I rebooted, and Boom. Yellow screen.

I also just got done with a 3 day trial using the Lee 109 filter. I used VIDEO mode with some of my own settings. Here are my thoughts:

-Didn't care for DYNAMIC mode (could not get color accuracy or sharpness to the level I desired). Between VIDEO and DYNAMIC it's a matter of if you want more brightness and less color accuracy or the opposite.

-Difference between filtered VIDEO picture and NATURAL picture was not huge. Filtered VIDEO mode is definitely better IMHO but don't expect the world.

-Blacks defintely have less of a blue/gray glow with the filtered VIDEO mode.

-Filtered VIDEO mode is brighter and the picture has a bit more "pop"

-Not sure if my eyes are deceiving me but the white levels also look improved in filtered VIDEO mode. Not sure if this is due to a brighter picture or what???

Overall it was worth my while to go to the trouble with the filter. Filtered VIDEO mode is now my default for dvd movies (I still like DYNAMIC's brightness for HDTV)

Originally posted by canthony15
That doesn't work. You get an all green image. It has something to do with RGB vs YPbPr. VGA is basically RGB I think. Some projectors, including the X1 do something to allow either YPbPr or RGB to come in on the VGA connector. The AE700 doesn't do this. Only real VGA (as from a PC video card) works "properly" on the AE700 VGA connector.

Is there another way to hook up 2 component video cables (DVD & HD) to the AE700? I'd rather not use my receiver for video switching if I don't have to.

I have recently experimented with masking for my ae700. This has arguably given me the greatest results of any tweak so far. Without the black bars for your eyes to use as a reference on 2.35:1 content you really are tricked into thinking black levels are considerably better than they actually are.

I urge anyone not already doing so to give it a try. I just had some black velvet cut and sewn to size to mask the top and bottom black bars evident on 2.35:1 material. I wrap it around the edge of the screen and tension it with velcro. It goes up and comes down in 30 secs. I am finally happy watching movies such as I Robot and ROTK. They now look incredible.

jmatt
How is it connected?

Originally posted by ChrisDuncan
Is there another way to hook up 2 component video cables (DVD & HD) to the AE700? I'd rather not use my receiver for video switching if I don't have to.

Just wondering why you would not want to use your receiver for the switiching? I was planning on running just two cables to my new HT AE700 - one HDMI and one Component. I would hook up the DVD via HDMI and the component to everything else. Future plans a HTPC down the road. Planning on a Denon 2105 do all the component switching/converting. Am I missing something here?

Thanks, Kevin

Originally posted by beocop
I believe the main idea of using the filter and Dynamic mode is to get a brighter picture while still maintaining temperature balance. Have you tried AVIA using Dynamic mode?

Not yet, i'm gonna play around with it some more this weekend when I have a bit more time.

For those HTPC users who have commented on the clarity , or lack thereof , of the Text from their Windows Desktop , are the majority of OS's WinXP ? The reason I ask is there is an option in XP called Cleartype that...

"With Windows XP, ClearType delivers improved font display quality over traditional forms of font smoothing or anti-aliasing. ClearType improves readability on color LCD displays with a digital interface, such as those in laptops and high-quality flat panel displays.

ClearType triples the horizontal resolution available for rendering text through software so that the result is clearer display of text on a Liquid Crystal Display (LCD) screen with digital interface. But don't let that lead you to believe it's only good on an LCD display! "

I realize that this isn't directed at the LCD Front PJ market , but could it hurt to try :confused:

There is also an addition freeware tool for more tweaking...

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/System-Tweak/ClearType-Tuner-PowerToy.shtm

Try Google on "Cleartype" for directions on enabling this . Would like to hear some feeback if in fact this improves the display .

Scott..................l:)

I have always used cleartype. I can see no reason why you wouldnt want to. It works. Its effectively doing antialiasing isnt it ?

Originally posted by jmatt
Working out the kinks on my 700 and HTPC running zoomplayer, sonic, and ffdshow. I cannot find where you select the 720 Wide on the projector menu. When I access the menu "SVGA" apears at the bottom of the picture menu. Color and Tint are blacked out so that they cannot be accessed. I have the onscreen display for FFDSHOW working, and showing 1280 x 720. Am I doing something wrong that would cause "SVGA" to show up, and also that I cannot adjust the color or tint in the menu?

Is that within ffdshow observed via its OSD?
Have you set RESIZE to 1280 x 720 within ffdshow?
If so this is within the filter which is sent to your vidcard which then rescales to the size it is set for.
What vidcard and drivers?
The most recent ATI drivers speak 1280 x 720 as an output selction.
If earlier you might need the RAGE3D tweak or Powerstrip.
See Tradergordo's messages at the beginning of this thread.
You might also spend some time in the HTPC forum though it seems you have already done that,
Be sure that your vidcard is indeed outputting 1280x720 before you launch ZOOMPLAYER.

good luck
ted

DB2 - I'm curious what your settings for Video Mode you ended up with. Please post.

Powerstrip timing profiles:

1280x720 60 Hz

http://www.romabio.dk/media/htpc/Powerstrip%2060Hz%20timing.JPG



1280x720 50 Hz



http://www.romabio.dk/media/htpc/Powerstrip%2050Hz%20timing.jpg


kukken

Originally posted by bapenguin
well, I just tried out the Lee Filters Salmon 109 trick, I used kongs settings off dyamic. I just don't see much improvement. Not over my Avia Tweaked cinema 3 settings. There may be a SMIDGEN more black detail...but I don't see much difference in contrast.

The AE700 is about 14 feet from a 88" screen at low lamp mode on a DIY blackout cloth screen. Maybe something I'm doing wrong?

I'd be surprised if you're not seeing a substantially brighter picture. The factory-set Dynamic mode picture is putrid, but is unquestionably brighter than any other setting. A serious limitation of the more "accurate" modes, such as the three Cinema modes, is that they are also the darkest modes, unwatchably dark, as was lamented early on by many users trying to project a good-sized image. As AussieBob found with the Dynamic mode (as well as Cine4Home found with their preferred Video mode), adjustments can be made to tame many of the disagreeable aspects of these modes, at the cost of skewing the color of the picture to a quite blue cast. The increase in brightness is dramatic enough that, when filtered to adjust the color, the resulting darkening still yeilds a significantly brighter image than the Cinema modes. This would be of dubious value if one was seriously compromising the contrast, as one might guess, but my eye, and that of other far-more-anal tweakers finds just the opposite, if only slightly. The real magic is in being able to up the brightness that much without TRASHING the contrast. I chose to filter the Dynamic mode merely due to the fact that I'm a parasitic, shortcutting slacker, and AussieBob had reported favorable results with it (and, more importantly, POSTED HIS SETTINGS, which I tried and tinkered with slightly, and which seemed to work quite well). By saving me from slogging through a bunch of trial and error, AussieBob has replaced my previous deity. BALANCING settings, especially with a PJ that allows you so many, can be a bewildering, eyeball-fooling, mind-numbing foible for a newbie, who is like a green pilot overcompensating for every perceived problem, thus creating even worse problems and watching the picture get weirder and weirder. (This is precisely why Panasonic included a panic button {"normal"} to return to the factory settings and get the lost, teary-eyed tweaker back to a baseline).

Other slightly less bright modes, adjusted and filtered, may be even more pleasing, or accurate, as others have suggested.

bapenguin: Do you see little difference in the brightness as you switch back to the Cinema modes? If so, this is very different from my experience.

By the way, I also started with a blackout cloth screen, as have so many, and was shocked to discover the degree to which various screen materials affect the image, and how different they are. I sent for free samples from most of the familiar manufacturers, (25+ samples!), and, other than the worst of the gray screens, rated the blackout cloth very low in the mix. For my purposes, the Draper M2500 material killed everything else, and made the blackout cloth look drab and awful, but I never would have known what I was missing without the side-by-side comparisons. Really a big difference. In case I'm influencing anyone, be advised the M2500, it seems, should be stretched on a fixed frame, as it's notoriously problematic when used in a roll-up system. It's certainly worth looking into the available alternatives, since the manufacturers are happy to hand out samples.

KongFan

Originally posted by kg2kg
Just wondering why you would not want to use your receiver for the switiching? I was planning on running just two cables to my new HT AE700 - one HDMI and one Component. I would hook up the DVD via HDMI and the component to everything else. Future plans a HTPC down the road. Planning on a Denon 2105 do all the component switching/converting. Am I missing something here?

Thanks, Kevin

Believe it or not, I lost the remote to my receiver so I can't switch my "TV" receiver channel from analog to digital. I have an MX-500 remote and saved almost all the remote settings for my receiver on it, except for the one button I now need! So I'm using the "CD" input for my Voom sat box since it's already in digital mode so I can get 5.1 sound. Luckily, both "CD" and "DVD" inputs are already in digital mode. Anyway, to do video switching I'd have to use the TV input (instead of CD) along with the DVD input. I know it's kind of a ridiculous reason... otherwise I'd gladly use my receiver for video switching.

OK, to everyone trying out the cheap filter calibration with their PJ's, here's a brief explanation to clarify things. The first guys that I'm aware of to mention filter calibration for the AE700 are the chaps at cine4home.de and these guys actually know what they're doing.

The basic premise, was to use calibration measurements to find which of the different basic modes had the closest color accuracy to 6500k and which of the settings has the highest contrast ratio. Out of the box, Natural setting with -1 color temp had the closest measurements to 6500k and the Video mode had the best contrast, but Video mode's color turned in at about 10500k, way too high! That's why everything looks so blue, Dynamic is even worse. The difference in contrast was 950:1 for the Natural mode after proper calibration and 2050:1 for the video mode before calibration. They didn't bother to list the measurements for Dynamic because there were too many other problems with that mode i.e excessive sharpening, and the brighter the mode, the more the UHP lamp's deficiencies in the red spectrum are exacerbated.

The problem with video mode was that the measurements revealed that between about 20 IRE and 100 IRE, the red spectrum was deficient by about 48% and the blue spectrum was too strong by about 24%. Don't bother tweaking for color accuracy from 0 - 20IRE because that range is severely compromised. If you even out the color accuracy between 0-20IRE, the colors for the rest of the IRE range will be badly off.

Now the whole premise of filter calibration is to find a filter that evens out the SED as optimally as possible so that minimal digital tweaking of the settings is necessary. If you need to tweak the gamma and RGB settings a fair bit after placing the filter, you're going to end up losing most of the added contrast in the attempt to gain the color accuracy. In other words, you need a filter that can reduce the blue about 24% and increase red by about 48% relative to the green, so that additional diital adjustments are minimized, or optimally, not necessary at all.

I finally went ahead and ordered the Lee filters designer SwatchBook to see what their filters were like, so I could compare them for everyone who wants to try filter tweaking for free. The best thing about the filter swatchbook is that they have cards depicting the SED for each filter. After examining the SED for the varying filters, I picked out the ones that in theory should be closest to the ideal objectives listed above. I also tried the #109 Light Salmon filter. I don't know how it works with the Dynamic mode since I never tried using it, but I can tell you without a doubt, that the #109 is not good for Video mode. It is way too pink, and trying to remove that pinkness forces you to adjust the settings too much. If you do approximate the colors to 6500k, you will lose almost all the contrast gain from that mode.

That being said, the optimal filters for Video mode are #152 Pale Gold and #004 Medium Bastard Amber. I tried both, and with the Pale Gold filter, the attenuation was close to perfect. Very minimal changes needed to be made to use this filter and stay close to 6500k. That being said though, the Pale Gold is the lighter of the 2 filters with a transmission of 70.67%. After tweaking and comparing the 2, I chose the Medium Bastard Amber. The SED curves were fairly close and the Medium Bastard Amber has a transmission of 64.06% making it similar to using the Pale Gold with a ND filter. In other words, blacks are slightly deeper with the #004 filter.

Not having had the chance to check varying AE700 projectors, I can't definitively say what the SED differences will be bewteen PJ to PJ. I would guess that more of the differences lie with the bulbs than the PJs, meaning you would need to recalibrate and check measurements when you get a new bulb, and even when your current bulb starts getting older since the SED characteristics will most likely change. That being said though, with the general attenuation provided by these 2 filters, the end user should be able to make the last few adjustments to closely approximate 6500k. As mentioned before, for those who would like to try the filter tweak without having to do much in the adjustments and without the means to measure or calibrate, the Pale Gold filter will work best and will get you there with hardly any remaining tweaks required except to make sure the Brightness and Contrast settings are optimal. The Medium Bastard Amber needs a little more work, but will give better blacks, and for me, being used to viewing in the Natural mode, it's still a brighter picture.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
OK, to everyone trying out the cheap filter calibration with their PJ's, here's a brief explanation to clarify things.

GREAT post, thanks. My Dynamic/Lee #109 setup definitely doesn't yeild a perfect image, but it's SO much brighter that I've had to wonder which negative aspects are a result of the mode/filter, and which are inherent regardless of mode but simply made visible by the brightness of the image. When I switch back to Natural or the Cinema modes, it's easy to believe that a lot of junk could be obscured by the much darker image. I, too, had gotten used to the (AVIA calibrated) Natural mode before I tried the filter tweak. I'm definitely going to look into your suggestions, though I have to take a deep breath before entering the fray of settings.

Since you haven't seen it yourself, I, and perhaps others with as little tweak savvy, would be very interested to hear your impression of the filtered Dynamic mode, if you'd be willing to take the time. Were you to find that no combination of settings/filter in Dynamic was at all comparable to the filtered Video mode, it would certainly make the point that would-be filter tweakers have more than one option to examine, easily and freely if one has the swatchbook. Easily, that is, if you'd be good enough to post your settings. God, I hate mucking through settings with no experience or equipment (someone else did the AVIA calibration with their own disc). I am, I suppose, easily frustrated, but I ain't the only one to be frazzled, or at least intimidated by the frequently non-intuitive process.

A few days ago, I posted on this thread the Dynamic settings I'd plagiarized from AussieBob, if they're of any interest to you.

Thanks again for the great info.

KongFan

I'm using a non-filtered AE700 and have been using Dynamic at -1 with Contrast and Brightness settings calibrated with AVIA. It just seems more vibrant on this setting while natural at -1 seems less punchy and vibrant.

Would I be better off with Video mode with this the #152 pale gold? Thanks.

-KostaVan

Originally posted by KongFan

bapenguin: Do you see little difference in the brightness as you switch back to the Cinema modes? If so, this is very different from my experience.

KongFan

Yes, very little difference in brightness. Maybe because I have a smaller screen? I mean, Dynamic is a lot brighter normally, but after using the filter it is negligable to Cinema 2 tweaked.

Did you make your own screen using the M2500 material? From what I hear buying the screen material from manufacturers is a lot cheaper than buying a screen.

When you guys focus your AE-700's, do you just eyeball the image, or use AVIA or how do you do it?
Last night I put about two hours on the unit running it through the menu options and so forth and found that bringing up the Menu text gave me a nice crisp image to focus on so I could adjust it to my liking.

See my review of the AE-700 in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=506997

Is this how you guys dial your pj's in?


Craig

I have received my LEE #109. I was previously using natural mode with color temp -1 or tweaked video mode.
The filter is really pink and seem to match the dynamic mode best. I actually didn't take the time to tweak the other mode with the filter on. I guess I will try with the normal mode whenn I got some time, at first sight it didn't looked that good through. If anyone has find good setting for this mode please post them :D
For the dynamirc mode with filter, I did try the setting wich were posted here. I could't adujt the "COLOR" setting because I am using vga input, other that the setting I am using right now are quite close. I don't have the avia disc so I just tried tweaking while switching between natural and dynamic + filter.
Aside from the red contrast which had to be greatly reduced, I didn't changed change the other color setting much. I actually wasn't to sure of the result so i let most at 0.
Now for the gamma... there are cleary off. Here are my setting:
GAMMA HIGH: -1
GAMMA MID: +2
GAMMA LOW: +3
That's might not be the best setting but that's I settled with for now, and the result looks ok to me. And I am suprised the setting had to be changed this much... maybe it's the dynamic mode which is off by default... not sure about that.

At the end I have a picture which looks plenty bright for my screen size (btw I am using low lamp). Black level are clearly better too, I have noticed that the black is a bit redish through not really an problem.
I definitly like my new setting better that the natural mode, although aside the better black level and brightness I didn't looked that impressive. Would be interested to know how the other filter perform in term of contrast compared the the Lee #109

djbluemax1:
Interesting post !! I not sure if I did the right choice with the #109 right now lol. I would be interested in testing the #152. The problem is that I don't think that I can get a sample... I am in europe (switzerland), I ordered my #109 from a national shop who has it listed. Cost me already ~30$ with shipping.
I have got however more filter that I will ever need... actually if someone in EU is interested in getting some you can always pm me... if you have some #152 I would be interested too :D

Originally posted by Durabolin
I have recently experimented with masking for my ae700. This has arguably given me the greatest results of any tweak so far. Without the black bars for your eyes to use as a reference on 2.35:1 content you really are tricked into thinking black levels are considerably better than they actually are.

I urge anyone not already doing so to give it a try. I just had some black velvet cut and sewn to size to mask the top and bottom black bars evident on 2.35:1 material. I wrap it around the edge of the screen and tension it with velcro. It goes up and comes down in 30 secs. I am finally happy watching movies such as I Robot and ROTK. They now look incredible.


Durabolin,

This is great news for me!! I just bought a 58X104 Da-Lite HCCV screen with a masking system. ;)
It was expensive, but I think it will give my image that extra punch in contrast I need.


Craig

Some random observatons during my first two months with the AE700:

First, I have the AE700 manual as a .pdf file. If this forum or a member wants to volunteer to host it, PM me and I will email it. Please do not respond unless you intend to host it for everyone to use. I did a forum search and could not find a link to the AE700 manual, nor could it be found easiy on Panasonic's site. The AE700 manual ought to be on the first page of this thread.

Re: 1:1 pixel mapping and cropping via RGB and HDMI-

Having shared the Rage3D Tweak and Auto adjust method early in this thread, I've been using a FAR easier method to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with no cropping, no extra software required, while gaining a digital image shift (digital remote controlled "lens shift", if you will) capability.

Simple set your desktop to 1280x1024 at 60Hz via analog RGB. Then use the AE700 remote and press the ASPECT button until you enter the VSCROLL mode. This mode 1:1 pixel maps 1280x1024, using the AE700's 1280x720 LCD panel as a 16x9 "window" that can be scrolled up/down with the AE700 remote's arrow buttons. You may need to do the "Auto" setup to get pixel perfect timing at 1280x1024 in VSCROLL mode on the AE700.

Why do this? Well, I just changed my desktop HTPC control monitor in the back of the theater to a 17" 1280x1024 LCD. Now I can keep all 4 PC's (connected to the AE700 through a good KVM) set to 1280x1024, and I get optimum desktop LCD resolution plus 1:1 pixel mapping on the AE700 across the board.

Before changing to the desktop LCD, I used a best in class 19" CRT, the Sony 400PS, for HTPC/ HD DVR control and monitoring duties. What I came to realize was that even the 400PS could not fully resolve 1280 horizontal pixels. Using the 1 pixel test pattern on page one of this thread, you could clearly see moire when the desktop was set to 1280x720 or 1280x1024. Most consumer CRT desktop monitors cannot resolve 1280 vertical lines across (or 1280 pixels across), even 19"-21" models. Your CRT desktop monitor may be able to accept, scan and display resolutions greater than 1024x768, but if it shows moire or other interference patterns when displaying a 1 pixel test pattern at greater than 1024x768, then it can't *resolve* more than 1024x768.

For this reason, I used to set the PC desktop resolution to 1024x768 for clarity on the CRT when not showing movies, to do upkeep, surfing, emailing, etc, then switching the desktop to 1280x720 just for the length of a video/movie/program.

Currently, average 1280x1024 desktop LCD's with 16ms or faster pixel response (means 60Hz with no ghosting) easily pixel map 1280x1024, so there is a net gain moving away from desktop CRT's now (in addition to weight, size and power consumption benefits).

I've gained remote-controlled "lens shift", or image shift, enabling the movie image to be moved up or down to simplify masking or if you prefer all aspect ratios to be top/bottom-aligned.

I see no real downside with this method, as I rarely do desktop apps on the big screen - surfing, email, etc. The AE700 is used primarily for DVD and HD video/film viewing and Xbox only. And if I *really* want to surf, requiring the task bar be on the screen, I can hot-key 1280x720 or use the remote to VSCROLL anyways.

A side benefit of this approach is that if you have an HD tuner card or STB that can be set to 1280x(number > 720) (like the myHD), you can now digitally image-shift 2.35 HD movies (or 1.85, 2.40, etc), while maintaining 1:1 pixel mapping!

I don't know if VSCROLL mode works via HDMI input, but if it does, this would solve the cropping issue via HDMI for any device that can output 1280x768, 1280x960 or 1280x1024, which includes not only PC's, but many HD STB tuners and scalers, as well as many upconverting DVD players. You would eliminate the cropping, plus potentially gain digital image shift via remote on HDMI.

Originally posted by beocop
I've read from a french forum that the color filter that cine4home uses is:

heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)[/url]

did you get a chance to install and calibrate using this filter? I will be getting this next week and am interested what your settings are using this filter. What results did you get? Were you able to obtain the same results as cine4home did using the video gamma setting? What settings did you come up with?

TIA

Originally posted by adamsocb
Once I get it working I will post the full solution.

A diagram of my solution to make an AE700 trigger work with an Elite Home series screen is posted at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=504591

This should work with any 12 volt screen trigger.

Originally posted by suffolk112000
When you guys focus your AE-700's, do you just eyeball the image, or use AVIA or how do you do it?

Craig

Don't laugh, but I put up the AE700's menu and use a pair of binoculars to focus it. Absolutely no doubt that its in focus not to mention quick.

Originally posted by JimP
Don't laugh, but I put up the AE700's menu and use a pair of binoculars to focus it. Absolutely no doubt that its in focus not to mention quick.

JimP,

No laughing here. ;)

I was going to try using the pause feature and dial it in by looking at the picture that way. I think using the menu screen was effective enough however.
It was kind of funny... I had several people over when I was playing with the menu and they were all telling me to get the menu off the screen so we could just watch the movie. Even though I had no speakers or audio hooked up. ;)

See my review of the AE-700 in this thread. (post #10 of the thread)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=506997

Craig

Originally posted by the marshal

For the dynamirc mode with filter, I did try the setting wich were posted here. I could't adujt the "COLOR" setting because I am using vga input, other that the setting I am using right now are quite close. I don't have the avia disc so I just tried tweaking while switching between natural and dynamic + filter.
Aside from the red contrast which had to be greatly reduced, I didn't changed change the other color setting much. I actually wasn't to sure of the result so i let most at 0.


One of the advantages of filtering is to achieve a greater balance between the amplifier gains of the individual primaries.
May I suggest that since most UHP bulb PJs are in fact red deficient the red gain is usually overdriven in relation to the other two primaries you might try increasing your other two colours to set your grey scale. This increases brightness while allowing your amps to still have enough "headroom" before clipping whites.

ted

Originally posted by Rgb
Some random observatons during my first two months with the AE700:


I had wondered where you went with your 700 - I had thought you might have tossed it and wandered elsewhere.

Interesting suggestions - thanks for sharing.

Have you driven the 700 with ZOOMPLAYER ffdshow and DSCALER5 ? I find the results quite rewarding in relation to my crap Pioneer. Might not be so great if you've a better player.

Looking forward to other musings you might have.

ted

Originally posted by tvted
I had wondered where you went with your 700 - I had thought you might have tossed it and wandered elsewhere.

Interesting suggestions - thanks for sharing.

Have you driven the 700 with ZOOMPLAYER ffdshow and DSCALER5 ? I find the results quite rewarding in relation to my crap Pioneer. Might not be so great if you've a better player.

Looking forward to other musings you might have.

ted

I've been quite happy with the stock PowerDVD 5/6 for general DVD playback, but I need to get up to speed on ffdshow and Dscaler5. Thanks for the reminder.

I've been so busy enjoying my AE700 that I still haven't posted a summary review yet- it's nice to just enjoy movies and not pick apart tech details for a change ;)

Hey guys,

I am using VOOM HDTV and was wondering whether anyone has discovered if whether using 720P or 1080i from your receiver has been better than the other.

I am currently running 720p because it is projectors native resolution but wanted to know if it's better to run 1080i and let the projector scale it to 720.

Thank you.

-KostaVan

Since several people have asked, I will post my settings for the Lee #004 Medium Bastard Amber filter and Video mode. Unfortunately, you folks will have to wait till I get the PJ back from the firmware update though. I saved the settings but never wrote them down and the settings for #152 Pale Gold and #004 Medium Bastard Amber are slightly different. All I recall was that Pale Gold required the least amount of setting changes from the default Video for additional correction, I don't remember what the settings changes were though.

Also, as far as focusing goes, if you want the sharpest focus for the PJ, the screen that I've found to work best for that purpose is in the hidden menu Service Mode option. The first default screen in Service Mode is pure white, then if I remember correctly, you can toggle the up button to the fourth screen up. this should be a white screen with nicely divided individual pixels. Use this image to focus and the PJ will be as sharp as it can possibly get.

As far as why I didn't choose to filter Dynamic. Well, although that mode is even brighter, the additional brightness as I mentioned earlier shows the UHP bulb's spectrum deficiencies even more. In addition, if I recall correctly, the dynamic setting does not have a smooth gamma curve and it has a tendency to clip whites and crush blacks. It also has more sharpening on it than any other mode and setting it to the minimum level still shows more sharpening/edge enhancement than the other modes.

As I mentioned in the previous post, after adding the filter, the more digital tweaking (increased changes in settings) necessary to bring the color temp back to 6500k, the less you'll see of any inherent advantages in the other settings. For Video Mode for instance, using the #109 Light Salmon filter necessitates so much tweaking to even out the color temp that you end up with not much of a difference in brightness or contrast over Natural Mode.

A couple of other points that might be of interest to tweakers. In reviewing the SED curves of the filters in the Lee swatchbook, I noted that the filter with what looked to be the best SED curve for filtering Video Mode appears to be #774 Soft Amber Key 1 but the swatchbook filter is a frost filter making it unusable. Obviously, we need a clear filter. Another interesting point to note is that #004 Medium Bastard Amber is available as a HT (High Temperature) material filter. According to Lee, the HT material is specially developed for High Temperature lamps making the filter more resistant to fading than their regular material filters. Since all absorptive filters are subject to color fading over time, this point might be something to consider for the members who have to actually buy the filters as opposed to being able to get swatchbooks for free.

When I get the PJ back from the update, I will also try using the Pale Gold filter with an ND filter and check the unmbers to see if that is a better solution than #004 Medium Bastard Amber. The reason why I initially settled on #004 was because it's reduced Y% acted as and ND improving the darkness of black and since Video mode is inherently brighter than Natural mode using this filter gave me a deeper black and the whites, and brights were also brighter than in natural mode. Hence, about double the contrast which concurs with cine4home's results. In retrospect though, since the SED curves for #152 and #004 are slightly different and the few settings changes necessary are also different (#152 needing very few changes) it might possibly be better to use #152 in combination with a ND filter.

For those who don't have access to Smart III or Colorfacts or an OpticOne system, #152 Pale Gold can be used with Video Mode to give you a picture with higher contrast, incrementally better black level and a brighter picture. The remaining tweaks necessary to bring the color to 6500k were small enough that you might get away with not even doing them. If you don't already calibrate your PJ with something, you might not notice the slight difference in color temp.

If you have something like Avia, or DVE and really would like the increase in contrast without sacrificing color accuracy and not spending any money at all buying or renting calibration equipment you don't have, the #152 Pale Gold filter will work for you. If you do notice a slight difference in color temp you could possibly try eyeballing the difference and making the changes with Avia or DVE so the tweak would be completely free (provided you can get the filter for free).

That would about sum it up for those interested in the free filter tweak. I'll post my settings when I get my PJ back.

P.S. since this forum is all about AV nuts trying out things to make our experience better and helping others do so, I've also ordered a swatchbook from Roscolux, probably the premier lighting gel company in the world. They also generally include SED curves with their gels so I intend to see if they might have any gels in their line that are superior to the one in the Lee Filters Designer Swatchbook..

Originally posted by bapenguin
Yes, very little difference in brightness. Maybe because I have a smaller screen? I mean, Dynamic is a lot brighter normally, but after using the filter it is negligable to Cinema 2 tweaked.

Did you make your own screen using the M2500 material? From what I hear buying the screen material from manufacturers is a lot cheaper than buying a screen.

Re: filter: Oh, I see. I should have clarified that I was comparing the filtered Dynamic mode to the FACTORY set darker modes, which, as you'd probably guess, are indeed much darker. Due to the deliberations of both Cine4Home and AussieBob, I kind of took it on faith that the Video and Dynamic modes had been respectively chosen by them as the most capable of somehow maintaining some degree of accuracy, with a minimum of drawbacks, after pushing certain settings to extremes and using a filter. Though I haven't tried it myself, I assumed the darker, and purportedly more accurate Cinema 1,2 & 3 and Natural modes couldn't be pushed to anywhere near the brightness, and would suffer, as with any other display, with the brightness pushed to the limit (my initial, unlearned assumption about the various modes was that they were merely pre-sets, and nothing more than various combinations of settings. This would mean that any mode could be adjusted to precisely match any other mode. I was corrected early on). The headaches I garnered from novice, abortive attempts at pushing one setting, and balancing the others, make me less than enthusiastic about slogging through every possible combination of mode, settings, and filter. Were I not such a dunce about managing the process, I'd try everything and just let my eyes be the judge. Anyway, if you feel the adjusted Cinema 3 mode gets you most of the way there without unacceptable compromises, what the hell. Sorry I hadn't clarified that better. Oh, well, it was free, right?

Re: M2500 material: I have ordered, from Jason at AVS, the M2500 fabric to stretch onto my own frame. If you haven't done so, I recommend availing yourself of the various companies' free samples. The DaLite samples were the smallest, and most difficult to assess, and Stewart, if asked, will send huge ones. Maybe others would have if I'd thought to ask. I really was surprised at the different, very distinct impact the various materials have on the image, in a real sense qualifying as significant tweaks in their own right. I chose the relatively high-gain Draper M2500 because it yields a bright, and yet contrasty image, without being a gray screen, and without seeming to trash the blacks as DaLite's Hi Power does. I also tested the most promising samples on several people, all of whom favored the M2500. There's some discussion comparing the Hi Power and M2500 in the Screens section, and some pondering as to how in the world the M2500 manages to do what it does. If you get a sample, you MUST stretch it flat (I used tape & cardboard) or it will look awful.

KongFan

Originally posted by KostaVan
Hey guys,

I am using VOOM HDTV and was wondering whether anyone has discovered if whether using 720P or 1080i from your receiver has been better than the other.

I am currently running 720p because it is projectors native resolution but wanted to know if it's better to run 1080i and let the projector scale it to 720.

Thank you.

-KostaVan


Good question as I keep going back and forth on my setup. I prefer using 1080i through the "native resolution" setting on HD material, but 480i I'm having a quandry sending either as 480p (since HDMI isn't supporting 480i) or sending 480i through the Iscan+ and converting it to 720p. I'm leaning towards the latter as I can correct the stretch on 4:3 material that I can't correct if I output 4:3 directly to the AE700.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Also, as far as focusing goes, if you want the sharpest focus for the PJ, the screen that I've found to work best for that purpose is in the hidden menu Service Mode option. The first default screen in Service Mode is pure white, then if I remember correctly, you can toggle the up button to the fourth screen up. this should be a white screen with nicely divided individual pixels. Use this image to focus and the PJ will be as sharp as it can possibly get.


Focusing on the panel structure will not necessarily provide the sharpest image though it might provide the sharpest "perceived" image.


...... if I recall correctly, the dynamic setting does not have a smooth gamma curve and it has a tendency to clip whites and crush blacks. It also has more sharpening on it than any other mode and setting it to the minimum level still shows more sharpening/edge enhancement than the other modes.

I've made similar comments. DYNAMIC mode's Gamma settings do not provide the range to allow for good black and white detail - just can't understand its appeal other than 'Punch" which to me is a TV/Video perception of images and not film-like (linear black to white) at all.



As I mentioned in the previous post, after adding the filter, the more digital tweaking (increased changes in settings) necessary to bring the color temp back to 6500k, the less you'll see of any inherent advantages in the other settings. For Video Mode for instance, using the #109 Light Salmon filter necessitates so much tweaking to even out the color temp that you end up with not much of a difference in brightness or contrast over Natural Mode.


I know you've said that you reject the CCR series because of SED and light loss but you might give it a try on the VIDEO mode increasing the BLUE and GREEN primaries because the RED is probably already close to clip. Increasing an image's brightness is done at the expense of absolute black unless your room has no active reflections. Better contrast figures are achieved by lowering blacks not by increasing whites and shooting for 12 to 16 FL on your screen.

If people give D65 a chance while calibrating for 16-235 (allowing for BTB and a soft white clip because of increased headroom) I believe they will find more black and white detail and more pleasing, natural colours.

What are you using for your calibrations?

ted

quote:Originally posted by beocop
I've read from a french forum that the color filter that cine4home uses is:

heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)[/url]



did you get a chance to install and calibrate using this filter? I will be getting this next week and am interested what your settings are using this filter. What results did you get? Were you able to obtain the same results as cine4home did using the video gamma setting? What settings did you come up with?

TIA

I've received today the filter "heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)". Can you tell me your proyector configuration?
THANKS

tvted said : "Focusing on the panel structure will not necessarily provide the sharpest image though it might provide the sharpest "perceived" image."

So what do you do to focus on the image?


Craig





See my reveiw of the AE-700 in this thread. Post # 10.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=506997

Originally posted by djbluemax1

Also, as far as focusing goes, if you want the sharpest focus for the PJ, the screen that I've found to work best for that purpose is in the hidden menu Service Mode option. The first default screen in Service Mode is pure white, then if I remember correctly, you can toggle the up button to the fourth screen up. this should be a white screen with nicely divided individual pixels. Use this image to focus and the PJ will be as sharp as it can possibly get.



Sounds like it would be worth a try. ;)

Thanks for the tip.


Craig



See my reveiw of the AE-700 in this thread. Post # 10.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=506997

Originally posted by suffolk112000
tvted said : "Focusing on the panel structure will not necessarily provide the sharpest image though it might provide the sharpest "perceived" image."

So what do you do to focus on the image?


Craig


I would suggest and image with text. In my case I utilize my computer desktop. With icon text on both sides of the screen I am able to find a happy medium for focus across my screen which is not entirely uniform - would surpise me if mine were the only 700 that lacked uniformity across the image plane.

Rgb has independently commented on this here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5173832#post5173832)

ted

GnOm4

I see that you are on the French forum.

Read/translate the entire thread: "Pana 700 et calibrage".
Many people have posted their settings (I think using the 81EF filter).
I hope you are better at French than I am (Babelfish sucks). Post your findings here.


Originally posted by Gn0m4
I've received today the filter "heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)". Can you tell me your proyector configuration?
THANKS

Originally posted by tvted
I would suggest and image with text. In my case I utilize my computer desktop. With icon text on both sides of the screen I am able to find a happy medium for focus across my screen which is not entirely uniform - would surpise me if mine were the only 700 that lacked uniformity across the image plane.

Rgb has independently commented on this here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5173832#post5173832)

ted

I concur tvted's comments.

I also cannot get pefect focus uniformity across the image when using a PC desktop to set focus. I usually set the focus on my AE700 to be sharpest in the center area. The sides are usually "good enough", but can be easily seen to be not as sharp as the center area with single pixel test patterns or simple icon text.

The focus variation across the image is not enough to be an issue for normal DVD or HD viewing. I am using both horizontal and vertical lens shift.

The focus uniformity is on par with what I observed with the PLV60, which the AE700 replaced.

I don't think it is feasible to get "perfect" focus uniformity in a sub $5000 projector that allows lens shift, IMO.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
OK, to everyone trying out the cheap filter calibration with their PJ's, here's a brief explanation to clarify things. The first guys that I'm aware of to mention filter calibration for the AE700 are the chaps at cine4home.de and these guys actually know what they're doing.

The basic premise, was to use calibration measurements to find which of the different basic modes had the closest color accuracy to 6500k and which of the settings has the highest contrast ratio. Out of the box, Natural setting with -1 color temp had the closest measurements to 6500k and the Video mode had the best contrast, but Video mode's color turned in at about 10500k, way too high! That's why everything looks so blue, Dynamic is even worse. The difference in contrast was 950:1 for the Natural mode after proper calibration and 2050:1 for the video mode before calibration. They didn't bother to list the measurements for Dynamic because there were too many other problems with that mode i.e excessive sharpening, and the brighter the mode, the more the UHP lamp's deficiencies in the red spectrum are exacerbated.

The problem with video mode was that the measurements revealed that between about 20 IRE and 100 IRE, the red spectrum was deficient by about 48% and the blue spectrum was too strong by about 24%. Don't bother tweaking for color accuracy from 0 - 20IRE because that range is severely compromised. If you even out the color accuracy between 0-20IRE, the colors for the rest of the IRE range will be badly off.

Now the whole premise of filter calibration is to find a filter that evens out the SED as optimally as possible so that minimal digital tweaking of the settings is necessary. If you need to tweak the gamma and RGB settings a fair bit after placing the filter, you're going to end up losing most of the added contrast in the attempt to gain the color accuracy. In other words, you need a filter that can reduce the blue about 24% and increase red by about 48% relative to the green, so that additional diital adjustments are minimized, or optimally, not necessary at all.

I finally went ahead and ordered the Lee filters designer SwatchBook to see what their filters were like, so I could compare them for everyone who wants to try filter tweaking for free. The best thing about the filter swatchbook is that they have cards depicting the SED for each filter. After examining the SED for the varying filters, I picked out the ones that in theory should be closest to the ideal objectives listed above. I also tried the #109 Light Salmon filter. I don't know how it works with the Dynamic mode since I never tried using it, but I can tell you without a doubt, that the #109 is not good for Video mode. It is way too pink, and trying to remove that pinkness forces you to adjust the settings too much. If you do approximate the colors to 6500k, you will lose almost all the contrast gain from that mode.

That being said, the optimal filters for Video mode are #152 Pale Gold and #004 Medium Bastard Amber. I tried both, and with the Pale Gold filter, the attenuation was close to perfect. Very minimal changes needed to be made to use this filter and stay close to 6500k. That being said though, the Pale Gold is the lighter of the 2 filters with a transmission of 70.67%. After tweaking and comparing the 2, I chose the Medium Bastard Amber. The SED curves were fairly close and the Medium Bastard Amber has a transmission of 64.06% making it similar to using the Pale Gold with a ND filter. In other words, blacks are slightly deeper with the #004 filter.

Not having had the chance to check varying AE700 projectors, I can't definitively say what the SED differences will be bewteen PJ to PJ. I would guess that more of the differences lie with the bulbs than the PJs, meaning you would need to recalibrate and check measurements when you get a new bulb, and even when your current bulb starts getting older since the SED characteristics will most likely change. That being said though, with the general attenuation provided by these 2 filters, the end user should be able to make the last few adjustments to closely approximate 6500k. As mentioned before, for those who would like to try the filter tweak without having to do much in the adjustments and without the means to measure or calibrate, the Pale Gold filter will work best and will get you there with hardly any remaining tweaks required except to make sure the Brightness and Contrast settings are optimal. The Medium Bastard Amber needs a little more work, but will give better blacks, and for me, being used to viewing in the Natural mode, it's still a brighter picture.

I contacted Lee Filters Canada via http://www.tyi.ca/
on page http://www.tyi.ca/SalesOrdersResin.htm ,scroll down page till you see 85C, and I was informed that they do not carry a # 152 Pale Gold and only the square type filters. For the most, the coversation was way over my head but they told me to go to any camera shop near where I live (Henrys) for example and purchase a 77mm 85C circular ring and filter. Would this be good yes / no?

GnOm4

I see that you are on the French forum.

Read/translate the entire thread: "Pana 700 et calibrage".
Many people have posted their settings (I think using the 81EF filter).
I hope you are better at French than I am (Babelfish sucks). Post your findings here.




Every configs of French forum are without this filter.
I have found my personal settings this afternoon after test a lot of time.
The colours are idem to my CRT Mitsubishi DiamondTron 21" and the contrast is very very impressive.
I´m so excite with my results but haven´t got Colorfacts to measure the image.
i'm sure that contrast is above 1400:1 with this filter.



Regards

Are all of these tweaks and color adjustments available if one is using the VGA input and a HTPC to drive the PJ?

On my older Panny 711xu, you could not get into some of the color adjustment menu's when using the VGA input.

Originally posted by nastyboy
I contacted Lee Filters Canada via http://www.tyi.ca/
on page http://www.tyi.ca/SalesOrdersResin.htm ,scroll down page till you see 85C, and I was informed that they do not carry a # 152 Pale Gold and only the square type filters. For the most, the coversation was way over my head but they told me to go to any camera shop near where I live (Henrys) for example and purchase a 77mm 85C circular ring and filter. Would this be good yes / no?

Well, here's are a couple more specifications to consider. First the 77mm 85C ring and filter could cost you about $50 USD. Second, the 85C filter looks to be a +81 Mired shift daylight conversion filter. That particular filter might end up being a little yellow. UHP lamps like the ones used in the Panny are specifically high in blue and deficient in the red spectrums.

When I get the Roscolux swatchbook, I'll see if they have anything that matches the Pale Gold or is superior. You might have better luck finding Rosco gels as they are, I believe, just about the biggest lighting gel supplier in the world.

On a separate note, I finally managed to dig up the SED and some specs for the Heliopan KR6 81EF. The SED, while achieving a similar reduction (to the Pale Gold filter) in the blue spectrum, has a much more gradual drop from a transmission Y% of about 75% in the red spectrum to about Y=50% in the blue spectrum, with the drop happening gradually from about 750nm (IR) to about 460nm (blue). It has a Mired shift of +60.

The Pale Gold filter has an SED that maintains a Y=90% down to about 580nm and then has a steeper drop to about Y=50% at the 500nm range. The blue spectrum is typically from 435-500nm.

In other words, the Pale Gold filter lets through a little more of the red spectrum (good), but is not as good at decreasing the blue spectrum as the Heliopan (the greatest reduction being at 500nm instead of optimally in the 435nm to 500nm range). That being said however, it is also important to remember that the red spectrum for this lamp and PJ is about 48% deficient and the blue spectrum is about 24% too high, so getting more reds and not tuning out blues as much could be considered a good thing.

One additional note. If someone is interested in getting a filter that should in theory (according to Lee's stated specs and SED) be close to the Heliopan KR6-81EF for free, provided you can get the Lee swatchbook free of course, you can try the #206 quarter CTO filter.

Hey folks! After typing the post above, I remembered that I hadn't checked my mail yet today, and guess what? I just had a chance to look through the Roscolux Swatchbook and it appears from the SED curves, they have a filter that could turn out to be better than the Lee Filters #152 pale Gold AND the Heliopan KR6-81EF. It's the Roscolux #09 Pale Amber Gold filter.

Their #01 Light Bastard Amber initially looked very promising with the SED curve slightly closer to optimal than the Lee #152 pale Gold filter, but as I kept looking, I came to the Rosco #004 Pale Amber Gold. With a Y=74%, users could choose to use this as is for a brighter image or to pair it with an ND filter to achieve darker blacks. The SED curve seems just about optimized to filter Video mode with the AE700 with approx. Y=84% to about 620nm and then dropping to about Y=37% right in the middle of the blue spectrum at 460nm.

Can't wait to get the PJ back so I can test this filter out. Stay tuned for updates and results.

Originally posted by djbluemax1
Can't wait to get the PJ back so I can test this filter out. Stay tuned for updates and results.

Great. Very interested to see what you find. I, for one, will certainly try whatever you suggest to see if it's an improvement over the filtered Dynamic mode.

Also nice to think, if your second hunch is correct, how many folks might be able to leave out the word "Bastard" while describing their setup.

KongFan

Nice,

What would we do without intelligent and witty folks like djbluemax? I don't understand 1/2 the stuff you are saying but the other half sounds good. REAL GOOD. I appreciate someone like yourself who can take the time to do something like this and share it with everyone else. You rock! I too am excited to find the results you come up with.

I went to Lee Filters website and requested a swatchbook. How long before they send one if they ever do and is that the best place to get it?

Thanks a lot :)

-KostaVan


EDIT: djbluemax... I was searching for the Roscolux and found #004 Medium Bastard Amber and #009 Pale Amber Gold...which one are you referring to? It seems like its the #009 as this is the one with the curve you described. Thanks.

KostaVan,

I tried looking for Lee Filters dealers in the state and called them asking if they could send me a swatchbook. One of the dealers said their Wisconsin store had them and she'd have them send one over. They ended up mailing it by next day air. Now that's service!

And yes, the Roscolux filter I'm talking about is the #009 Pale Amber Gold. It appears to have a SED curve that is optimal for tweaking the AE700's Video mode. On paper, the SED is better than the SED for the Lee Filters #152 Pale Gold, Lee Filters #004 HT Medium Bastard Amber, Heliopan KR6-81EF and the Roscolux #001Light Bastard Amber.

Take note that the Roscolux #04 Medium Bastard Amber is different from the Lee Filters #004 Medium Bastard Amber that I tried using with Video mode. Their SED curves are different. The reason the Lee filters MBA is not as optimized as the #152 Pale Gold is because the curve drops to about 42% at about 520nm but then has a slight bump upwards to about 50% in the 420nm to 520m, range. The blue spectrum is in the 435nm to 500nm range. The Lee Filters #004 also decreases the low end of the green spectrum more than the #152. Because of its lower transmssion though, it acts similar to adding a ND filter to #152 Pale Gold yielding a darker black.

The Roscolux #04 though has a slightly different curve. Although the drop is optimal at the 435nm to 500nm range, it looks like it might not reduce the high end of the green spectrum enough. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Lee Filters #774 Soft Amber Key 1 appeared to have the best SED curve of all the filters in the Lee swatchbook, but being a frost filter, it can't be used for this purpose. Doesn't matter though, because if the Roscolux #09 Pale Amber Gold filter works as well as its SED curve indicates it should, we won't need to bother about any of the other filters.

KongFan,

So what's wrong with telling people that "a little bastard makes the picture better"? :)

I have found that just going to the lee filters literture request web page and asking for the yellow swatch book is all that is required. It comes pretty fast.

For usa:

http://www.leefiltersusa.com/Miscellaneous/LightLiterature.html

Originally posted by djbluemax1
............Can't wait to get the PJ back so I can test this filter out. Stay tuned for updates and results. [/B]

I will wait for your findings and yes to purchase the 85C filter 25cdn, Cokin "P Series" 77 mm adapter ring, 18cdn, and the Holder??? 20cdn

63cdn total.

Quick Question... Has anyone been able to get the HDMI port on SA 8300HD cable box working with the AE700, either with the new 1.07 or otherwise.
It didn't work for me, as well as 2 others that I know of on 1.03. Want to know if it's worth sending in the unit for the firmware. (The port on the SA 8300HD is active). Thx.

Originally posted by dm
I have found that just going to the lee filters literture request web page and asking for the yellow swatch book is all that is required. It comes pretty fast.

For usa:

http://www.leefiltersusa.com/Miscellaneous/LightLiterature.html

i couldn't get that form to work for me.... :(

Originally posted by ormefocus
Quick Question... Has anyone been able to get the HDMI port on SA 8300HD cable box working with the AE700, either with the new 1.07 or otherwise.
It didn't work for me, as well as 2 others that I know of on 1.03. Want to know if it's worth sending in the unit for the firmware. (The port on the SA 8300HD is active). Thx.


The problem is not with the projector, call your cable tech line, sadly you will find out that they do not support HDMI porting, no software written for it. :(

djbluemax1

I'm very curious as to what Calibration tools you are using to measure your greyscale after applying your filters.

ted

Originally posted by ormefocus
Quick Question... Has anyone been able to get the HDMI port on SA 8300HD cable box working with the AE700, either with the new 1.07 or otherwise.
It didn't work for me, as well as 2 others that I know of on 1.03. Want to know if it's worth sending in the unit for the firmware. (The port on the SA 8300HD is active). Thx.
To add to Nastyboy's response, I have been using the HDMI output of my SA 8300HD for the last few weeks, watched the Super Bowl through it, and it has been fine. This was with the old firmware (I did get the occasional white flash) and my AE700 is at Heartland now getting the update so I don't know how it behaves with the new firmware yet.

I did have trouble using the DVI output (to HDMI on my AE700) on my previous SA 8000HD though.

My cable provider is Charter Communications in the USA.

hi, question on filters

so i called leefiltersusa and they're sending me the yellow sample book

i've read this thread, but i don't see any definite answers in regards to an effective an inexpensive way to attach the filter (short of sliding the filter inside the focus ring, which i don't want to do)

is there some sort of adapter ring for these filters and where do i get one?

Originally posted by billymac
hi, question on filters

so i called leefiltersusa and they're sending me the yellow sample book

i've read this thread, but i don't see any definite answers in regards to an effective an inexpensive way to attach the filter (short of sliding the filter inside the focus ring, which i don't want to do)

is there some sort of adapter ring for these filters and where do i get one?

The swatch book samples from Lee are tiny (2"x4"?). You can just press it against the lens and it'll stay. If you want a more permanent setup, you can buy the Cokin 77mm P series holder and adapter ($10-12) and buy a sheet of the filter ($5-6). With this setup, you can cut up the filter sheet into smaller squares (4"x4") and put it on the holder and attach that to the lens.
A prettier and costlier setup is buying a 77mm glass filter ($50-60) that fits exactly onto the lens.

so the yellow samples swatch is only going to do part of the image then i take it? not the entire image?

a full sheet must be purchased if going to use in conjunction with that cokin ring and adapter right?

those rings and adapters are on amazon, but can someone help me make sure i pick the right one?

what about this:

http://www.warehousephoto.com/amazing/itemdesc.asp?CartId={F322E3B7-B979-4EVEREST665-869B-28C95266DD9B}&ic=39097

and i guess lastly, does this thing just tension-clamp onto the focus ring?

the filter samples are supposed to be big enough for the whole projected image. it doesn't have to cover the whole lens to work.

Originally posted by hitchfan
To add to Nastyboy's response, I have been using the HDMI output of my SA 8300HD for the last few weeks, watched the Super Bowl through it, and it has been fine. This was with the old firmware (I did get the occasional white flash) and my AE700 is at Heartland now getting the update so I don't know how it behaves with the new firmware yet.

I did have trouble using the DVI output (to HDMI on my AE700) on my previous SA 8000HD though.

My cable provider is Charter Communications in the USA.

Sorry I should of been more specific, I was planning to switch Canadian satellite / cable provider from bell expressvu to rogers, phoned them up in advance regarding the HDMI port on the 8300HD and they responded that they did not support it nor plan in the future. Have not got my receiver yet to confirm findings.... Hope it is not true and the tech support rep is in the wrong.

Originally posted by tvted
djbluemax1

I'm very curious as to what Calibration tools you are using to measure your greyscale after applying your filters.

ted

The last time, I used Colorfacts. Much as I'd like to buy the system, I can't quite justify the cost unless I'm thinking of becoming an ISF calibrator. I'm actually curious to know how well Smart III works. Anyone have any info?

Originally posted by djbluemax1
The last time, I used Colorfacts. Much as I'd like to buy the system, I can't quite justify the cost unless I'm thinking of becoming an ISF calibrator. I'm actually curious to know how well Smart III works. Anyone have any info?

Thanks.
I'm in much the same frame of mind.
As to SMART III, here are some threads from AVS.
Link (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=387947)
another (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=393358)
also this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=436124)
and a non AVS comment can be found here (http://home.earthlink.net/~tlhuffman/ht/main/index.htm) under "Calibration Tools"

ted

tvted,
Thanks for the links. I had tried searching under 'Smart III' but didn't get the info I was looking for, but those threads sound like it's worth looking into. I think I might just end up getting this. If it's close in accuracy but just a little more time consuming than Colorfacts, not a problem for me. calibration takes time already anyway, and if I'm not going to go down the ISF certification road, I'll only be doing it on my own stuff every once in a while.

Hi. I have about 100 hours on my 700 and I'm blown away.

My only complaint at this point is that sometimes the faces of people can have yellowish skin tones. Not the entire face just normally around the eyes, forehead and mouth.

Does this effect have a name and is it tweakable?

I see this on the component input from a crappy dvd player. I also see it over svideo from expressvu and dish.

I am using the factory presets.

I have not had my system calibrated yet but my dealer will do avia soon. I've also ordered the lee filter swatch so I'll join on that debate soon.

Thanks

Originally posted by tsteves
the filter samples are supposed to be big enough for the whole projected image. it doesn't have to cover the whole lens to work.

And indeed they are. I have a long throw, though, and, come to think of it, haven't tried enlarging the image to replicate the zoom setting for a short throw, which may substantially enlarge the image as it exits the lens. This could make things a little tighter. Even if the swatch isn't quite big enough, it's real value is in determining a particular color's suitability before buying a sheet of it. In Portland, a local stage/lighting shop quoted me a price for the smallest size (several inches, can't remember exactly) of Lee filters, at around $6.00 or $7.00, which provides at least enough material for 4 or more full-size filters. I just noticed that someone else pointed this out. So, the swatches are likely to be enough, but if they aren't, we all still benefit from the handy comparisons, and a purchased sheet of the color one settles on won't set anyone back much at all.

After work, just for the hell of it, I'll fool around with the zoom and see if the Lee swatch can't accomodate its full range.

Following djbluemax's example, I have ordered the Roscolux swatch book. If it gets here before his 700 is returned, I'll be standing by to try his recommendations. I'm very curious to see if a Roscolux selection works more effectively than the few Lee ones I've tried. I've had striking, if not quite perfect results, as far as my under-educated eye perceives, and djbluemax's comments make a lot of sense relative to what I'm seeing.

So, I'm in happy anticipation. I'd like to echo the gratitude for djbluemax's eagerness to share his insights. That's exactly what makes a forum like this a great thing.

If anyone would like a description of my ridiculously simple and effective (if inelegant) mounting rig, PM me.

KongFan

I have noticed what is I guess you would call a green push in my image on a few movies during darker scenes.
Is this what you guys are trying to alleviate with these filters?
Once I get my new DVD player, (tomorrow) I want to see how the AE-700 performs with the new player. Then I will actually try tweaking a bit.
The problem is, I am still projecting onto a tan wall. :(
I e-mailed the above listed company about obtaining a swatch yesterday but have received no responce. Should I just call them and request the samples?

Craig

Ok, I've read a lot about everyone's efforts to get perfect color balance on this projector, so I thought I'd add my observations at this point:

Almost all of the video modes have a gross blue shift below 20 IRE. No amount of filtering or brightness or contrast adjustment will fix the color shift in these modes. HOWEVER, note that I said "almost." Dynamic mode, the one people seem to be the most afraid of, actually seems to use the maximum dynamic range of the panels (actually, a little bit more than the maximum dynamic range, hence the white crush). What this means is that at black, white, and every gray in between, the color balance you see on your screen is the same as the color balance that the bulb would make if it was 100% uninhibited by the LCD panels. This is a GOOD thing, as flat, linear response CAN be filtered to 6500K without reducing any contrast. The only "trick" to making it not crush the whites is just to turn down contrast a few notches. Brightness seems to be fine where it is by default. Don't worry, turning down contrast doesn't actually "reduce" contrast, it merely brings it back into "proper" territory. And as far as the oversharpening, notice how in dynamic mode it lets you turn sharpness down to -9? I'd imagine -9 in this mode is equivalent to -4 in the other modes.

As far as how I arrived at the color balance observation, all I did was put up a gradient from black to white across the entire screen, set my camera (Digital Rebel) in "cloudy day" mode (this should be the closest to 6500K)and took a picture. I loaded it into Photoshop and started checking the RGB values at each intensity. In this mode, the blue and green values seemed to be offset relative to red by about the same amount in both black and white modes, PLUS it was extremely bright. With no blue shift at any intesnity, the final task is reducing blue and green to equal the red.

Heres the thing I wondered... what about if, instead of absorbing the excess blue and green at the lens with a filter, you absorb it at the OTHER side (the screen). I've been using a "behr silver screen" paint job, but this paint is 100% completely inappropriate for the AE700 as it is clearly shifted towards cyan and thus excarbates the problem. What about if I take a picture of the screen putting out the whitest white it can (i.e. fully transparent LCDs doing nothing more than transmitting the bulb's spectrum of light), invert the color, and print it out. This gives you the same light pinkish/orangish tint that people are going for with the filters. Now, find a color sample that appropriately corrects the red deficiency in the bulb, take that to home depot, and find a paint sample that closely matches the print out. Really, you don't need it to be "color matched" since the point is being in the ball park. I'd trust my eyes before I'd trust a paint matching machine. So anyway, ignoring the exact manner of choosing the right color, say I painted my screen so that it perfectly absorbs the excess blue and green while absorbing little to no red.

With this theory, you should be able to use dynamic mode, turn down the overall contrast, and not have to adjust RGB contrast at ALL since the point of the paint is to absorb more blue than green and no red. It wouldn't come at the expense of brightness, as the paint would be absorbing the extra color INSTEAD of making the LCD panel absorb the extra color. This couldn't possibly be a bad thing.

Interesting, but we'd be stuck with DIY and experimenting. I'd personally go with a filter first.

Yeah. Thats definitely not a "for-everybody" solution since the first requirement is foresaking a professional vinyl screen for DIY fiberboard, and at least a little of skill with a sprayer/roller. For those who have already made their own screens, I think its worth a thought.

To add a bit of emphasis to what I already hinted at, "Behr Silverscreen" paint is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE for the Ae700, so anyone thinking about this combination, I can definitively say "stay away."

Hey, I painted my wall for awhile. It's great for learning if you can get away with it, but It's tough in winter in NJ. I did a silver screen paint job once and it was brutal taking it off the wall. I still find things with a silver coat. Good luck with that!
I have a silverstar screen which really punched up my x1, but I don't think it's ideal for the ae700 which may be too bad, because I ain't taking that thing off the wall....
Filter ideas? From your viewpoint, Aussie bob's take is lookin good.

The original 700 thread referenced below had discussions on this exact thing. Unless you were keeping up with the thread at the time you would never find it, but the link below is for page 159. See posts from Aussie Bob and others on some of the original painted screen and filter tweaks, which are now being discussed in this thread.

John

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=442553&perpage=20&highlight=aussie%20bob&pagenumber=159

Originally posted by Cowclops
Ok, I've read a lot about everyone's efforts to get perfect color balance on this projector, so I thought I'd add my observations at this point:

Almost all of the video modes have a gross blue shift below 20 IRE. No amount of filtering or brightness or contrast adjustment will fix the color shift in these modes. HOWEVER, note that I said "almost." Dynamic mode, the one people seem to be the most afraid of, actually seems to use the maximum dynamic range of the panels (actually, a little bit more than the maximum dynamic range, hence the white crush). What this means is that at black, white, and every gray in between, the color balance you see on your screen is the same as the color balance that the bulb would make if it was 100% uninhibited by the LCD panels. This is a GOOD thing, as flat, linear response CAN be filtered to 6500K without reducing any contrast. The only "trick" to making it not crush the whites is just to turn down contrast a few notches. Brightness seems to be fine where it is by default. Don't worry, turning down contrast doesn't actually "reduce" contrast, it merely brings it back into "proper" territory. And as far as the oversharpening, notice how in dynamic mode it lets you turn sharpness down to -9? I'd imagine -9 in this mode is equivalent to -4 in the other modes.

As far as how I arrived at the color balance observation, all I did was put up a gradient from black to white across the entire screen, set my camera (Digital Rebel) in "cloudy day" mode (this should be the closest to 6500K)and took a picture. I loaded it into Photoshop and started checking the RGB values at each intensity. In this mode, the blue and green values seemed to be offset relative to red by about the same amount in both black and white modes, PLUS it was extremely bright. With no blue shift at any intesnity, the final task is reducing blue and green to equal the red.

Heres the thing I wondered... what about if, instead of absorbing the excess blue and green at the lens with a filter, you absorb it at the OTHER side (the screen). I've been using a "behr silver screen" paint job, but this paint is 100% completely inappropriate for the AE700 as it is clearly shifted towards cyan and thus excarbates the problem. What about if I take a picture of the screen putting out the whitest white it can (i.e. fully transparent LCDs doing nothing more than transmitting the bulb's spectrum of light), invert the color, and print it out. This gives you the same light pinkish/orangish tint that people are going for with the filters. Now, find a color sample that appropriately corrects the red deficiency in the bulb, take that to home depot, and find a paint sample that closely matches the print out. Really, you don't need it to be "color matched" since the point is being in the ball park. I'd trust my eyes before I'd trust a paint matching machine. So anyway, ignoring the exact manner of choosing the right color, say I painted my screen so that it perfectly absorbs the excess blue and green while absorbing little to no red.

With this theory, you should be able to use dynamic mode, turn down the overall contrast, and not have to adjust RGB contrast at ALL since the point of the paint is to absorb more blue than green and no red. It wouldn't come at the expense of brightness, as the paint would be absorbing the extra color INSTEAD of making the LCD panel absorb the extra color. This couldn't possibly be a bad thing.

I don't recall what Aussie Bob's take was, unless it was that gold-filter he suggested (I forget which one it was). Anyway, I didn't paint the wall, its on its own piece of fiberboard. I'm going to paint over it with whatever color I find appropriate when I get the chance.

Of course, I'm not against filters, its just that they sell a lot wider varieties of paint than they do optical filters. If my screen is going to be painted anyway, why not go with a solution that negates the need for a filter. Its already primed and painted, so why not just slap another coat of a different color on top?

I'll say it right now, my opinion of high gain screens is quite low. There is no magic when it comes to optical properties. Anything done to a screen to increase its gain also means it diverts from being nice and diffusive. Taken to the extreme, can you imagine using a giant mirror for a screen? I know I can't, and it feels like some people are going way overboard with silver screens. I'd rather just utilize the fact that brightness is proportional with screen area, and knowing I only have to divide the width by 1.414 to double the apparent brightness. So, I can get as bright as anything on my 70" wide painted screen as compared to the super super super expensive silver screens that have pretty good response on axis, but nothing off axis. I much prefer screens that don't change with viewing angle, and the only way to get a screen like that is to get one with a gain of 1 or less.

Heliopan red KR-6-81EF + Dalite HC = :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Contrast impressive :cool:

Originally posted by Cowclops
I don't recall what Aussie Bob's take was, unless it was that gold-filter he suggested (I forget which one it was). Anyway, I didn't paint the wall, its on its own piece of fiberboard. I'm going to paint over it with whatever color I find appropriate when I get the chance.

Of course, I'm not against filters, its just that they sell a lot wider varieties of paint than they do optical filters. If my screen is going to be painted anyway, why not go with a solution that negates the need for a filter. Its already primed and painted, so why not just slap another coat of a different color on top?



1) It's a helluva lot easier to change filters on a 2" lens than paint jobs on a 100" screen;
2) It's cheaper too, if you try/use the free filter samples.

Aussie Bob's filter choice was the salmon from Lee filters, IIRC.

I got a lot of PMs asking about my simple filter mount (for sample pieces, such as the Lee swatches), so I'll describe it a little more thoroughly than I did in a recent post. One thing I didn't mention is that I used scotch tape to affix the filter to a small loop at the end of the wire described. I always use "magic" tape for things like this because it comes cleanly off when needed. The possibilities of simple mounting schemes are endless when you're dealing with such a very thin, tough, flexible and springy piece of plastic, as opposed to a piece of glass. If you haven't seen the Lee filter samples yet, don't laugh at the bare-bones ridiculousness of my rig. Once you see them, you'll see that you really don't need anything fancier, I promise, and it's just too small to offend most folks' sense of aesthetics.

Basically, it's 12" or so of very thin single strand bare copper wire, with a 1/2" round loop at one end, and a 4", or so, round loop at the other. Any stiff, posable wire will do, of course, but the wispy filter sample could be held by a hair, really. The 4" loop is the base, which sits on top of the PJ, and the 1/2" loop is taped flat to the filter, at the useless hole-punched end where it had been bound in the swatch book. If the 1/2" wire loop encircles the punched hole, two small opposing pieces of tape will stick to each other through the hole, and secure the filter piece quite well. The wire portion between the loops is bent forward and down to hold the end with the filter in front of the lens. Picture a snake sitting coiled on the PJ, "biting" the end of the rectangular filter piece, and reaching its head down to place the filter in front of the lens. In my case, the filter is being held horizontally in front of the lens, but with my long throw, the tiny image passing through it looks like it would fit even with the filter piece held vertically. The 4" loop base is, relatively, so heavy as to far outweigh the tiny filter piece, but, obviously, this basic premise can be modified countless ways. Depending on how you angle the downward-reaching portion of the rig, you can avoid any possibility of eventually fumbling the wire against the lens. I also put the 1/2" wire loop at the front of its attachment point on the filter, so only filter or tape could ever hit the lens if bumped. A very nervous HT enthusiast could tape the base loop down, which I'll probably do once I've settled on a particular filter, just to avoid any potential gusts from shifting it around. Truth be told, it hasn't budged once since I set it in place. The whole thing is so puny that, from a distance, the little filter piece appears to be floating in front of the lens. I'm not much on style, just results, so any piece of my HT gear could, with the lights on, look like Walter Brennan for all I care, but I'm sure some HT buffs will balk at such a low tech, low gloss rig.

By the way, to remove the sample from the swatch book, and to keep the rest of the book intact for future reference, you'll need to cut the amazingly tough, tightly bound material out with scissors or an exacto knife. I slit, with an exacto, the end at the punched hole, so I could slip the whole piece out of the book, and preserve that otherwise useless portion as an area to indiscriminately grip, pinch, tape or glue in any coarse manner without compromising any usable portion of the sample.

KongFan

Well Cowclops,
I would really like to hear how your 'anti-filter' screen turns out. I happen to have painted my DIY screen with Behr Silver Screen also (before I got the AE700). I thought I needed the greyish hue of the screen to help with the blacks of an LCD projector. Well, turns out I was wrong. There is definately coloration in the Silver Screen and I really need a brighter screen for my large projection area.

A bunch of us AVSers who live in Vancouver, got together and did some testing with various projectors and screens. Had 3 projectors (including my AE700 and 9 different screens (some DIY some commerical grade). One of the 'stars' of the show was a DIY screen called Light Fusion (see the DIY screen forum on AVS ). WE tested the light fusion, the MMud mixture alone, and 7 other DIY and commercial screens. At the end of the day the winner in my (and others) opinion for the AE700 was a simple Behr Ultra Pure White without any additives.
More details and screenshots of our AV geek fest here. (http://www.pjreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10)

I was ready to repaint my screen with the Behr Ultra Pure White when I read your post and it does seem to make sense. I don't want to paint the darn thing again so I am anxiously awaiting the results of your testing to see if your theory of colorizing the screen to complement the LCD AE700 works in practise. It would seem that would give the maximum brightness to the picture since you don't have a filter.

Let us know as soon as you have some results
.go to end of thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=338764&perpage=20&pagenumber=120)
PS, are you planning anything special to cover up the SilverScreen with a new base coat before you put on your final solution.

Without sounding too arrogant, the "theory" is as sound as its going to get. Painting your screen an appropriate color, if you're already talking about using a Behr UPW based paint, will only improve the contrast (by way of letting you use less LCD-panel based color adjustment). Of course, it doesn't cost you anything to wait and see if I like the end results, and if I do it I'll be sure to let everyone know which color of paint I went with. I will match the sample to a printout by eye rather than rely on a color matching thing. After all, the point is to bring the color balance from ~11000K down to as close to 6500K. Even if you've only matched it close enough to get 7000K or 6000K, thats probably a better match than you could do with any optical filter.

Oh yeah, and I'm not going to try to cover it up. All I need to do is shift the pigment to be slightly more reddish rather than cyan-ish. Any screen that looks reddish to orangish will be better than one that looks white or blueish. In actuality, I want to minimize the effects of the paint (i.e. make it ALMOST white) so I don't end up with "overcompensation" syndrome like most people seem to have using the light salmon filter. If you have to adjust the colors after you add the filter/a different screen color, it means you're USING THE WRONG FILTER and wasting even MORE brightness.

Originally posted by Cowclops

With this theory, you should be able to use dynamic mode, turn down the overall contrast, and not have to adjust RGB contrast at ALL since the point of the paint is to absorb more blue than green and no red. It wouldn't come at the expense of brightness, as the paint would be absorbing the extra color INSTEAD of making the LCD panel absorb the extra color. This couldn't possibly be a bad thing.


Cowclops,

been there, done that!


Projected IRE 70 to plain true white board. VIDEO mode on AE700.

Took tens of photos with digital SLR white balanced to 6500K.

Loaded them to photoshop.

Inverted the pictures to negatives.

Calculated average RGB values.

Spent hours to find a suitable 'opposite' color from paint factory's color map. (My local paint factory publishes RGB values for it's sortiment of about 2 500 tones).

The closest paint color was R:192 G:171 B:164 (HUE:10 SAT:46 LUM:178 in 0-255 scale. Please note that some windows applications like 'paint.exe' use 0-240 scale).

It can be called light gray with clearly visible salmon tone.

The picture is very nice. The only adjustment I have done is contrast +6 as per AVIA 'told' me to do.

"Luminance" for this color is about 70%. My screen is 190cm (abt 75 inches) wide. AE700 produces clearly enough light for this size even in low mode, but for screens over 210cm wide I'd recommend a lighter tone.

====

Here's is my challenge for the experimenters who contribute to DIY screen section: Please stop talking ounces, gallons, quarters... start talking RGB! A good paint shop shall be able to sell you the paint from any factory's sortiment when told the RGB values you want. (Please don't flame me... I'm not that serious.. and I understand a paint does have also other characters in addition to the tint itself.) Okay okay, the real reason is that the paint brands and tint names you use over there are unknown here in Europe :-I

Is there any reason you used red at less than 255 besides that you wanted a gray screen? I figure thats probably the obvious reason. I'd rather have NO blue pigment at all, almost no green, and then a little bit of red. Either way, I'm sure it works excellently.

I think the overcompensators on AVSforum have really gotten out of hand. It seems like in the DIY screen sections, you have people talking about "great bright whites but ****** blacks" or "awesome blacks but the whites are totally washed out." My major is engineering, and engineering is about finding the right balance of tradeoffs. If you paint your screen black, it will have awesome blacks and NO whites. If you use a mirror for a screen, it will have retina-burning white, ****** blacks on axis and NOTHING off axis. The tradeoff is somewhere in the middle, and it has pretty obviously been hinted at before... the optimum screen for an optimum projector is one that is perfectly diffusive and with a gain of 1. Going with a gray screen or going with a high gain screen is diverting from optimal. At least gray screens don't hot spot. True, I haven't gone into detail about the effects of ambient light, but the AE700 is so low contrast that ambient light DOES NOT MATTER. When they start making 30,000:1 contrast projectors, I'll start worrying about ambient light.

Of course, the "paint your screen a non-white color" mod is really just a slight adjustment on the "use a screen with unity gain" idea. A slight loss in gain for a great increase in color balance is a worthy tradeoff, if you ask me.

Before anyone decides to flame me because I've insulted your honor, just keep in mind: All I intended to say is that you have to KNOW what tradeoffs you're making before you can succesfully make those tradeoffs. If you didn't know that choosing screen gain is a balancing act and anything that affects the brightest white your projector can put out affects your black by the EXACT SAME AMOUNT, well now you know. No shame in learning something new.

Originally posted by Cowclops
Is there any reason you used red at less than 255 besides that you wanted a gray screen? I figure thats probably the obvious reason. I'd rather have NO blue pigment at all, almost no green, and then a little bit of red. Either way, I'm sure it works excellently.
I chose the grayish color to get better blacks. It works well, but honestly I have say that the blacks are still far from perfect.

Cowclops, if I understood your posting right, you meant that by selecting the screen pigment and base material you can not fix several problems separately - ALL the corrective tricks affect ALL the picture - blacks, whites, midtones, colors. I agree completely.

Originally posted by adjuster

been there, done that!

The closest paint color was R:192 G:171 B:164 (HUE:10 SAT:46 LUM:178 in 0-255 scale. Please note that some windows applications like 'paint.exe' use 0-240 scale).

It can be called light gray with clearly visible salmon tone.

The picture is very nice. The only adjustment I have done is contrast +6 as per AVIA 'told' me to do.
[/B]

Adjuster,

Can you post a picture of the screen? I'd like to see what color the screen is. The problem with painting the screen is the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). It could also affect the "look" of the theater room. Most people probably would not like a "pink" screen. However, if it's mostly gray, it might not be a bad idea.

Here's the challenge: Filtered vs. Painted Screen.
I wonder which would win (contrast, luminance, color balance, aesthetic, etc..)

So, what color is this magical shade everyone is trying to paint onto their walls?
Is is a tan color?
Can anyone post a pic? I know it won't be perfect because our monitors are not properly callibrated... but it will give us an idea.


Craig

Cowclops,

Couple of questions and a comment.

Does this method not defeat one of the finer points of a digital pj - its portability? I'm aware that many have dedicated rooms so at best this question is moot.

The second issue does need addressing though - the fact that a PJ will probably need calibration more than once throughout its lifetime. Do you then adjust at the PJ? How do you account for any discrepancies when a new bulb is introduced.

My comment is regarding the DYNAMIC mode. Many like this mode - I suspect those who prefer a "video" image to a "film" image - but in my experience this mode is far from linear when considering gamma.


ted

Originally posted by beocop
Adjuster,

Can you post a picture of the screen? I'd like to see what color the screen is. This is a quick reply: Just take any windoze application which uses 0-255 color scales (for example Powerpoint, but *not* Paint.exe) and using the color editor, create a box object with fill color R:192 G:171 B:164 .

It might look a little bit shocking on the monitor at first sight, but in general it's not that dark and not that saturated in real life, painted on a wall.

Remember, don't take your monitor too seriously, unless it is really calibrated using external color analyzer.

I have an idea!
Can we use a computer to display and "overlay" of this adjusted screen color and the "image" on top?

- DVD player sends "image" to "PC overlay software"
- PC combines the "image" with the screen-color-overlay
- PC sends combined image to projector

This is like laying transparencies on top of one another. This way, there's no painting nor filter.

Would this work? Any flaws in this logic?




Originally posted by adjuster
This is a quick reply: Just take any windoze application which uses 0-255 color scales (for example Powerpoint, but *not* Paint.exe) and using the color editor, create a box object with fill color R:192 G:171 B:164 .

It might look a little bit shocking on the monitor at first sight, but in general it's not that dark and not that saturated in real life, painted on a wall.

Remember, don't take your monitor too seriously, unless it is really calibrated using external color analyzer.

Beocop, you have to adjust the picture optically. If you tweak the color in the video card drivers before it gets to the projector, its the same as if you tweakd the settings in the projector itself. It would reduce the contrast and brightness.

Tvted, I'm not quite sure dynamic is "the" mode to use yet, but it has flat color response by default and video mode does not. Whether video mode can be tweaked to have flat color response (by way of turning UP blue contrast) or if dynamic mode really does screw up the gamma curve, I still have to do a little fiddling. Whether my screen is painted unmodified white or a shade of pink/orange, its still more portable than the Panasonic 170 pound 32" directview CRT that I HAD to get rid of for weight reasons.

As far as having to "calibrate" it more than once, as I've stated before, the point of using a filter (or painting the screen) is to bring the color from OBVIOUSLY incorrect (around 11,000K) to anywhere from 5000 to 7000K. The closer the better, but the point that people miss is that unless you're using your projector for color correcting photographs professionaly, the exact color balance does NOT matter one bit. As long as you're close to optimum, your brain does the rest of the work.

In fact, I'd like to single handedly overturn the recommendation that "natural with color -1" is the optimum mode for the projector out of the box. If you use video mode (or natural mode with contrast turned down) then not only is it brighter, but the color is uniform across the entire IRE range. Any in projector adjustment that brings the white level closer to 6500K reduces contrast, brightness AND exaggerates the blue shift in shadows which usually means having to turn up brightness too which means even worse contrast. I watched Gladiator with these settings (obviously a very warmly colored movie save for the very beginning) and almost came to the conclusion that I've wasted my money. Fortunately, I realized that you're less likely to see the blue shift as long as you have no warmer-colored reference light in the room like a calibrated PC monitor or the projector's own "calibrated" white values. Thus, you're better off changing the settings as little as possible in the projector. A uniform blue across the entire dynamic range of the projector looks less blue than "correct" hilights and blue shadows. Using the filter or screen painting (well, any optical means) is the only way to compensate for color cast.

can someone help me find the filter ring and adapter i need here in the usa online? i want to make sure i get the right one....

pretty please

Originally posted by billymac
can someone help me find the filter ring and adapter i need here in the usa online? i want to make sure i get the right one....

pretty please


Look on ebay for:

"P-series holder & 77mm ring adapter for Cokin"

There's always at least one on sale with Buy-it-now.

With this holder, you cannot use the Lee swatch sample because the sample is too small. You can buy a larger filter sheet, cut it down to ~85mm, and slide it in.

Originally posted by Gn0m4
Heliopan red KR-6-81EF + Dalite HC = :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Contrast impressive :cool:

wow! $70-90 for that filter here in the states
i'd want to hear quite a bit more about the pq and what settings you're using before i sprung on that!

so i just ordered my cokin ring and adapter (does this thing screw on? or tension clamp?)

now i need to order the bastard yellow and the light salmon pink or whatever, are there any others? was the salmon a lee?

The corkin thing is a screw on that has a holder for filters.

Lee "Light Salmon", catalog number #109 filter.

Originally posted by bradsears
The corkin thing is a screw on that has a holder for filters.

Lee "Light Salmon", catalog number #109 filter.

does it screw on to the panasonic without any modification? i don't remember seeing threads on the focus ring

I did not see them either at first but in fact they do exist and worked fine. I was very nervous when I first started screwing.
(drum roll .... now I'm way better - ba-doom-sha!)

Just checked, and the Lee filter samples are large enough, with room to spare, even with the 700 zoomed out to it's fullest (largest). So, happily for anyone with a short throw or huge screen, there's no throw/zoom situation that the samples will not accomodate.

KongFan

wow! $70-90 for that filter here in the states

40 eur. in ebay (Team-Photo) ;)

Regards.

Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is. The following settings work with my AE700, but yours might be different, so use these only as a starting point. :)

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1

So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

I hope everyone finds this useful, and I strongly suggest the purchase of Smart III. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his calibration software and I don't want to take away sales with this info.

Ahh, excellent, you're using negative brightness adjustments and positive contrast adjustments. Before I fiddled with the projector an extensive amount I was afraid that adjusting the settings in this way would destroy shadow/hilight detail, but in reality these adjustments just make sure the FULL dynamic range of the panel is being used. It ISN'T used fully in any mode but dynamic. This probably means that just about anyone's unit should be capable of 2200:1 full on off as long as they're either A) willing to live with bad, but uniform, color balance or B) using some kind of optical correction be it a filter or the "pink screen" idea.

I can't wait to try this out for myself. Watching Gladiator with "close enough" to 6500K color balance from 20IRE and up, but a violent blue shift at the low end and crap for contrast really was a disappointing experience. Now that I know that thats not SUPPOSED to be how it looks, I think I can get an amazing picture.

On a bit of a random rant, I'd like to mention why the aperture based brightness modulation isn't really "cheating." People often use CRT as a reference point for contrast quality, but they are nowhere near infallible when it comes to contrast. They are capable of upwards of 10,000:1 contrast when comparing a full white to a full black screen, but their ansi checkerboard contrast doesn't always exceed 150:1 to 200:1. My exact numbers may be a bit off, but the point is the ansi contrast is nowhere near the full on off. Despite this, images always have good contrast. On the other hand, while LCD and DLP are capable of ansi contrasts exceeding CRT easily, they are limited by their full on off contrast. Since our eyes are used to modulating the overall brightness of the image we're looking at through the use of the iris, you can get away with an image that is brighter or darker depending on the AVERAGE brightness, as long as black looks black and white looks white. The problem arrises in LCD when the panels are as opaque as they can get and thus can't block any more light, and since they aren't displaying any white reference to make your irises close down, they open up and the black doesn't look very black. Really, all the aperture does is invert the effect of your own irises, and thus darkens black as much as possible. So, in this regard an LCD with an ansi contrast of 300:1 and an aperture capable of increasing the full on off contrast to nearly infinite levels could easily exceed CRT in contrast quality.

Pardon me if people are reading this and saying "duh we know this" but from reading some of the forums on here, I'd venture to guess this isn't as common knowledge as it might seem to those in-the-know.

Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is. Thanks for the info, Brad. Were you using VIDEO mode, or DYNAMIC? High lamp or low?

Lamp High
Video Mode

edited previous post to add this info.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

A lot of Thanks Cowclops.

So which 81EF should I be ordering?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=154701&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=21866&is=REG

Cheapest, but no multi (MRC) coating:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11106&is=REG

bradbissell,

I think that my actual settings with this filter are better than ur config.
Can u test it with my settings and say me the results of Smart III please?


Mode: Video
Lamp: Low (but think put it in High mode to increase the contrast)

Contrast: 4
Brightness: 0
Temp colour: 0
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0


I´m waiting for reply.
THANKS


Regards.
-QuinT-

Hey Brad Brussell, Ive got the Hoya 81A filter do you think this will be suitable for your settings or should I go with the KR6 81 EF?

source for IEC C5 power connector? The panny has a C5 power connector. I am looking for one of these so that I can build a shorter cable then the 10ft one that came with the PJ.

The 81A and 81EF are pretty different in coloration. You can use it as a starting point, but you won't get as high a contrast.

Gn0m4, sorry but I don't have the time to run though configurations other than my own. I would suggest purchasing SmartIII and calibrating your projector. If it looks good to you, then that is all that really matters. You might try lowering the Brightness setting a bit. Mine is -6.

dm- I'll admit, I got mine off e-bay, so I don't really have a suggestion on the differences between the different filters. I know mine is the Heliopan version. Definitely get one with MRC, it reduces reflection back to the projector, thus you have higher light output.

bradbissell,

I have this filter: Heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)

Is the same filter as yours? Because I have my poyector with the same image than my tft but with ur settings the image tends a bit to green.
I don't know if my tft is not well configurated or my filter is diferent as yours.

Thanks.

Regards.
-QuinT-

Ok I give up guys, I've spent hours reading this forum and gotten nowhere. This VB and scan line problem is making me nutty. I don't know what is what. I believe my problem is...well, you know what, I'll let you guys tell me. When I'm watching a scene especially when the shot is far away, like a helo shot over a highway, I see the white lines on the highway begin to block up and sometimes see bands on them. And anytime there are like, blinds in the scene and the camera pans, I see a bunch of crazy movement and black lines run through it as well. I power down everytime I watch, and have adjusted the flicker. When you guys help me diagnose this as either problem, can someone tell me if using say a monster surge protector will also help the prob? I have some cheapy walmart strip now. Thanks again.

David what is your source material ? I find source type and quality affects such issues to a great deal. I know for myself moving from vga to hdmi removed a lot of the vb issues. As for panning once again thats a source issue. Remember you can also upgrade your firmware to 1.07 and this supposedly has an effect on VB also.

bradbissel: so to check you are using the MRC version of the B&W KR6 81EF. I checked and here in Australia its retail is $140 AUD. Say 105 USD. I hope it works well:)

Originally posted by bradbissell
dm- I'll admit, I got mine off e-bay, so I don't really have a suggestion on the differences between the different filters. I know mine is the Heliopan version. Definitely get one with MRC, it reduces reflection back to the projector, thus you have higher light output.

please confirm which one you are using...heliopan or B+W? In the previous posts you have mentioned both.

I'm back after a little time away on a glorious beach.

To answer a couple of questions:

Lee Swatch size: whoever said that it's adequate was correct. I use a pretty short throw for a wide screen and the swatch size easily fits it, as long as it's placed close to the lens. It can be jammed in or just attached with some small pieces of adhesive tape, especially if you're only experimenting. I use a filter holder now, but the swatch method was optically equal.

81EF Filter: I tried this myself (believe it or not, Lee Filters makes on, a "taking" lens for cine cameras, purchased as a gel from Ol' Faithful, Panavision Sydney, A$25) and was fairly impressed. Compared to the Light Salmon #109 Lee filter it does a similar job after tweaking, although making the "raw" picture (i.e. before tweaking) a little yellow instead of pink, as with the Lee filter. I have yellow walls in my living room (aka. "home theatre") and maybe reflections from these add a little warmth to the pinkishness of the Light Salmon to make the overall effect closer to the 81EF. Not sure about this though, but either filter worked OK for me.

Accuracy of final color balance: it is absolutely up to the individual. whatever his or her preferences are should be the final determining factor as we are NOT in the "film grading" business here. We are in the "film watching" business. Ultimately the final decision on what filter to use (or not to use one at all) rests with our own preferences. Anything that gets the color into the ball park is OK by me, and should be OK by all of us.

The Anamorphic Lens: using it in ZOOM-1 mode (vertical stretch) I can fill the screen with a Cinemascope image, no gray-black bars.

This does A LOT to increase PERCEIVED contrast straight out of the box, as well as really smoothing out the picture. Screen-door effect on a 115" screen is invisible from any more than 4 feet away.

Masking: Placing a rectangular mask over the far end of the anamorphic assembly drastically reduces light spill. The mask's shadow is acceptably sharp at the distance it is placed (about 12") from the projector's lens, and I place its boundaries just outside the edge of the screen. Now, the only light entering the room is image light, not the lens spill surrounding the image (which is quite considerable... if you stand outside the screen area and can still see light coming from the lens, that's "lens spill"), meaning less contrast-reducing reflections off walls etc. I made the mask out of some black cardboard. In either this or another thread someone else did a similar thing (without anamorphic assembly) by making "matt box" about 12" long with a rectangle (16:9 or 2.35:1... can't remember) cut out of the front. Same effect (with my rig the anamorphic prism box itself supplies the four side walls). Try it... once again a cheap contrast enhancement.

Aussie Bob signing off.

Ok to clarify, it was labeled on ebay as a B+W KR6 81EF and is labled the same on the filter.

I agree with Aussiebob. Tweak so it looks good to you. I used a calibration tool that says everything is "correct" and to my eye it is. I've never seen so much contrast in a LCD projector before. Also the level 6500K color temp across IRE 20-100 is very impressive in my book and I must say that I have never seen this in the other projectors I have owned. So I am very happy with SmartIII and the filter I have chosen. Infact, I might not tweak it anymore and really start enjoying the damn thing. Something I would never have said with my Sony HS10. I adjusted the BrightB setting to -3 and that removed the blue blacks that I was seeing. Now, is that correct in the world of calibration, no, but it looks better to me. I may have given up a little, or gained some, contrast in the process, but I doubt very much in either case. So, as I have said before, purchase a calibration tool if you can and get things "correct" and then go from there. I now know what the projector can do, and it is damn impressive.

djbluemax....

Have you attempted to calibrate your projector using the Roscolux Pale Gold? I have been eagerly awaiting your post on your findings. I still have not received my swatchbook. I don't have calibration equipment besides AVIA so I won't be able to tweak like brad was able to.

Brad...have you tried any other filters besides the KR6 81EF?

It would be nice if those without the calibration equipment knew which filter and settings was optimal. There would be less second guessing.

-KostaVan

I may have missed this part, but I have been reading this thread for a while and I haven't seen anyone mentioned the normal mode. Is this mode not preferred at all. Just wondering since I use it for HD stuff and I haven't seen anything wrong with it. Thanks for this thread and all of the info people have been posting. Now I am considering purchasing the smart III kit. Oh it never ends does it?

I have tried a CC40R, and the Lee 109 Light Salmon filter. Neither of these gave the contrast ratios that I am seeing with the 81EF. The CC40R was about 1400:1, and the Light salmon was lower. Neither gave an exact 6500K reading across all IREs. So I would say, in my opinion, that the 81EF is the best filter for the AE700.

With the 81EF, in video mode, this projector is in a whole other class.

biffbyun- Sadly, it never ends....

so ... suggestions on the cheapest place to get a B&W KR6 81EF filter?

I have looked at a couple of places and they have glass versions of thsi filter. Is this the only format it comes in?

Does a 77 glass filter comes iwth a thread to attach to the focus ring?

Thanks to all the tweakers for their hard work.

brad...

Thank you for the reply.

Is this the correct filter?

SKU # BW7781EF

Mfr. Part # 65073766

I found this at this link.

http://www.adorama.com/BW7781EF.html

Thanks.

-KostaVan

That looks like a good price. It is the correct filter. You might want to find one with the multi coating to reduce reflections, but even without that you will still have a pretty high transmission of light.

Camera filters like these have threads on them to allow them to attach to the AE700.

You might be able to find a 81EF in a wratten, gel, or resin version. Those will be cheaper, but will not attach in the same way.

Originally posted by KostaVan
djbluemax....

Have you attempted to calibrate your projector using the Roscolux Pale Gold? I have been eagerly awaiting your post on your findings. I still have not received my swatchbook. I don't have calibration equipment besides AVIA so I won't be able to tweak like brad was able to.

It would be nice if those without the calibration equipment knew which filter and settings was optimal. There would be less second guessing.

-KostaVan

No, I haven't had a chance because I'm still waiting for my PJ to get back from the firmware update. I guess I should have sent it in as soon as I got the email from Heartland. When I first got the email, they told me that the turnaround would be about 2 days. Unfortunately, I was busy with other stuff and by the time I actually got aound to sending it in, they wouldn't give me a projected turnaround time and only after pressing for a 'projected' best guess turnaround was I quoted "about 5 business days".

Darn, I'm anxious to get it back so I can play with it more.

Originally posted by bradbissell

You might be able to find a 81EF in a wratten, gel, or resin version. Those will be cheaper, but will not attach in the same way.

Hmmm... I think I'll scout around for one of those, for two reasons:

-I haven/t had a lick of trouble with my cro-magnon wire mount (for my Lee/Dynamic setup), and every penny must be pried from my hand.

-The possibility of cheaper alternatives is a great incentive for those (like me) who will be buying it on faith, and don't have the knowledge/wherewithall/equipment that you have. KostaVan's finding of $45.00 + shipping is pretty affordable, but I guess I'm particularly thinking of the folks who weren't thrilled with the Lee #109, and had to buy one because they couldn't get a sample.

I'm intrigued with your impressions, especially your "did I read that right?" contrast ratio. Regarding your overall results, your thinking and description sound pretty convincing.

Still awaiting a Roscolux swatchbook, to try djbluemax's suggestions. If I'm able to compare the two, I'll post an "eyeball" only review, for what it's worth. However, for all concerned, it would be great to hear such a comparison from one of you experienced, equipped folks. In fact, since the Lee and Roscolux alternatives are free, it occurs to me that you are in the unique position, at the present, to post a comprehensive comparison. But, I know it probably doesn't sound very appealing to work out the settings for alternatives that you think aren't likely to equal your hard-to-beat findings with the 81EF. Sorry, had to ask.

Echoing (sort of) AussieBob's observation that his reflected wall color could be a factor in his satisfaction with the Lee #109, I have found that the wide variety of screen samples I have auditioned have appeared to shift the colors one way or another. I seem to recall that my original blackout cloth was QUITE blue, actually, compared to the generally warmer manufactured screens, but maybe there are different blackout cloths. Anyway, I, too, suppose this would vary a filter's apparent accuracy from setup to setup.

Thanks for your continuing generosity of information, and that of a few others. It's amazing to me how much a few well-considered, affordable modifications can lift this PJ up to a striking new level of performance. And without you guys, who'd ever know?

KongFan

Believe me, I would love to try every combination out there. I'm a tweaker at heart, however the fiancee thinks I shouldn't spend my time fiddling with the projector. She just doesn't understand that you can always get a better picture. :) I will go through the Lee swatch book tonight and see if I can find a filter that comes close (visually) to the 81EF. Heck, I'm all for free, and more than happy to help.

As an option I searched B&Hphoto and found lots of "cheaper" 81EF filters. Resin, gel, etc. Check it out if you're interested. Local professional photo stores should also carry these filters.

Does the 81EF photo filter come in one universal size that will screw onto the AE700 lens? Or do we need to know diameter or some other size code to be sure to get the right one?

you need the 77 mm size

Originally posted by bradbissell
Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is.

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1

So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

I hope everyone finds this useful, and I strongly suggest the purchase of Smart III. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his calibration software and I don't want to take away sales with this info.

Brad:
what are your Contrast, Bright and Color Temp settings in this calibration? Thanks.

AVWH,

Do you want Brad to watch your movies for you as well? Contrast, Bright and Color: select on test.

Sheesh...

well, excuuse me...IIRC, YOU provided that info (contrast +4, bright 0, color -4) when you gave your Light Salmon filter calibrations - so why would it be inappropriate for me to ask that of another tweaker?

Sheesh....did I actually offend you somehow, or is it just a bad day in Aussieland? ;)

contrast and brightness is something easy enough to tweek locally, but the color temp would be good to know from brad since he has the smartiii tester.

"Color temp" and the RGB advanced settings configure the exact same thing. Lowering the color temp is exactly the same as going into the advanced settings and lowering B by a few notches. If its calibrated via advanced RGB contrast settings, that means you leave "color temp" at 0.

While I'm posting, I thought I'd also like to point out that using color filters can not in and of itself increase contrast. You get optimum contrast (someone said they got 2200:1) by using the full dynamic range of the panel. It just happens that because the bulb lacks so much red, the final color balance does too. The filter merely acts to bring blue and green down to the level of red, it does NOT have a non-linear affect on full on/off contrast.

The B+W KR6 filter has the same color temperature (mired) shift value as an 81EF but it is not the same color.

So, an ordinary 81EF will not give exactly the same effect. Perhaps a 1/4 coral or an 85C are options?

The picture below shows an 81C (Cokin), Tiffen 85 and the Lee filters mentioned, (I don't have a KR6 or 81EF to hand). Perhaps someone can post a scan of the KR6 for comparison?

My color temp is set at 0. Brightness and Contrast are specific to your projector and dvd player, and thus need to be set using AVIA or another calibration dvd such as THX Optomizer. My values are -7 and +4 if I remember correctly, however, this will most likely be wrong for your projector.

I went through the Lee swatch book last night and found nothing that came close to the B+W KR6 81EF filter. Sorry, but there doesn't seem to be a free version out there. At least not from Lee.

My suggestion is to get a B+W KR6 81EF filter and be done with it. Spend the cash and you will reap the rewards. If you don't get this filter then you will be needing different RGB values than the ones I supplied and you will need a calibration tool such as SmartIII. I know $45+ is alot to spend on faith, but I did it, and I'm not the richest guy in the world. However, I'm glad I did. It is a huge change from any of the other options out there.

Good luck everyone! I'm now enjoying my projector and the picture it produces. I can not say that of any other TV or Projector I have owned.

-Brad

bradbissell,

I think you have started a trend - Adorama is backordered on the filter (at least the multi-coated one I tried to order) ...

Bradbissell,

What are your room colors and screen type? I would think this is the other side of the projector coin as Aussiebob mentioned that his room has yellow walls and that may be warming his BOC screen and thus affecting his filter choice - a very good supposition on his part!

I searched your profile/posts and did not find a reference this information?

Thanks, Kevin

I have Grey walls and a Firehawk screen. The measurements made with SmartIII are not effected by the screen, walls, or room reflections. The measurements are made directly from light projected from the lens.

Bradbissell, with the B+W filter, if one were to run in low power output mode, would the color calibration settings be different? Have you smart-ed the low power mode of the PJ as well as the high power?

I guess dm beat me to it. Brad, I too was wondering if you had had a chance to calibrate with smart iii using the low lamp setting. I would be curious of the differences. Thanks again for so much great information. I will so though that right now, I'm using a 106" silverstar from about 15' with great success using the normal mode. I have lined the entire walls around the screen with black velvet. Only the ceiling is cream which I can do nothing about. I can't see really how much better the picture could get, but I'm sure as heck willing to try.

In video mode with lamp on high does this make the fan run louder compared to the normal viewing modes people use without the filters? In my setup the 700 will be pretty close to where I'd be sitting so I want to keep the fan as quiet as possible.

John

Originally posted by bradbissell
I have tried a CC40R, and the Lee 109 Light Salmon filter. Neither of these gave the contrast ratios that I am seeing with the 81EF. The CC40R was about 1400:1, and the Light salmon was lower. Neither gave an exact 6500K reading across all IREs. So I would say, in my opinion, that the 81EF is the best filter for the AE700.

With the 81EF, in video mode, this projector is in a whole other class.

biffbyun- Sadly, it never ends....

If I have the time in the future I'll do a run in low lamp mode, but I can't promise how long that will take. I don't think it would change things too much. My original runs without a filter were in low mode and the lamp coloration was pretty close to the high mode. I just wanted that extra bit of brightness that I didn't have with my HS10.

See my screenshots with Cine4Home filter and compare it with my screenshots without filter.

http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=801&stop=814


Thanks

Wow! Looks great! Has anyone been able to find this filter in a gel?

Originally posted by Gn0m4
See my screenshots with Cine4Home filter and compare it with my screenshots without filter.

http://p216.ezboard.com/fmundodvd43132frm3.showMessageRange?topicID=21269.topic&start=801&stop=814


Thanks

Where can we get this filter? And what are your settings with it on your AE-700?

Thanks so much.

Craig


:)

Filter Cine4Home (http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3872123622)


My settings:

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 4
Brightness: 0
Colour: -2
Temp colour: 0
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0


Regards ;)

Gn0m4, are you using SMARTIII to calibrate your projector?

I am trying to figure out why your settings are so different from bradbissell.

Originally posted by suffolk112000
Where can we get this filter?



Try your local high-end photographic supply shop. Since Adorama is out of stock of the B&W filter per an earlier post, I called and found it at the 2nd shop I tried.

I now have it installed, and set the gamma, contrast, and bright per Brad's recommendations w/ SmartIII. It definitely give me deeper blacks, and warmer, but still very "punchy"coloring overall. It's the 1st time that video has been a preferred mode w/ my AE700 (before, it was much too "gray" for my tastes).

Originally posted by Gn0m4
Filter Cine4Home (http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3872123622)


My settings:

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 4
Brightness: 0
Colour: -2
Temp colour: 0
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0


Regards ;)

Thanks for the speedy reply.
I will give it a shot!


Craig

Originally posted by AVWH
Try your local high-end photographic supply shop. Since Adorama is out of stock of the B&W filter per an earlier post, I called and found it at the 2nd shop I tried.

I now have it installed, and set the gamma, contrast, and bright per Brad's recommendations w/ SmartIII. It definitely give me deeper blacks, and warmer, but still very "punchy"coloring overall. It's the 1st time that video has been a preferred mode w/ my AE700 (before, it was much too "gray" for my tastes).

Thanks for the tip. I am sure you saved me some leg work. ;)

Update: I went to the Cine4home link and found this model number. Rot KR-6 (81EF) E-77
When I ask them about it... who makes it?

Craig

dm,

Gn0m4: bradbissell,

I have this filter: Heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)

Is the same filter as yours? Because I have my poyector with the same image than my tft but with ur settings the image tends a bit to green.
I don't know if my tft is not well configurated or my filter is diferent as yours.

Thanks.

bradbissell: Ok to clarify, it was labeled on ebay as a B+W KR6 81EF and is labled the same on the filter.


I dont know if my filter is different to B+W, but with his settings the image tends a bit to green.


Regards.

Gn0m4, usted tiene SMARTIII?

Do you have SMARTIII?

Originally posted by bradbissell
That looks like a good price. It is the correct filter. You might want to find one with the multi coating to reduce reflections, but even without that you will still have a pretty high transmission of light.



How important would you consider the multi coating? The multi coated lens is about double the price, and seems to be back ordered at most locations.

Yo no tengo SmartIII.

I haven´t got SmartIII.

huh, pics are impressive

all but the charlies angels pic, that one looks a little red, but could just be my eyes. found the b+w one here locally for $60 the heliopan was a special order and about 2 week lead time :(

wish i could find one a little less expensive...

anybody know which lee filter swatch most closely matches KR6 one's above?

Originally posted by jmck407
How important would you consider the multi coating? The multi coated lens is about double the price, and seems to be back ordered at most locations.

multicoated filters are more expensive because of the optical coatings used on the glass. The extra coatings allow the filter to pass more of the light with out reflecting it back into the projector. Multicoated filters may reflect 1% of the light back into the PJ instead of the screen. Noncoated filters may block 9% or so. (this is in addition to the intentional light blocking/correcting features of the lens).

see here:

http://www.2filter.com/faq/multicoatedfaq.html

Can the HDMI dropouts be bad enough to give a blue screen or would this be a different problem?

Denon 2910(v7 firmware)--->HDMI (40'cable) ---->AE700

If I use component out from 2910, picture looks great. But, when I use HDMI I get severe dropouts causing a blue screen.

I did search this thread but the only complaint i saw on HDMI dropouts was intermittent sparkles so I wanted to get your opinion on if the blue screen could be cable related also. Or do you think it's a different issue. Would the AE700 firmware fix this issue. It just seems more severe than what you guys are experiencing.

I have ordered a different brand HDMI 40' cable to see if it corrects the problem.

Thanks,

Time2Ride

40 feet might be/probably is pushing it. Whats wrong with putting the DVD player closer to the projector? After all, you already have component video cables running this distance apparently. You can send the spdif out back to your audio hardware over one of these cables.

thanks dm.

This is the one I found; it's in stock. I hope it's the right filter. I have tried all the Lee filters suggested here, at $6 a pop + $11 for an adaptor, and non of them really wowed me. This one is really expensive for me so I hope it works.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

Something I found about the B+W filter.


"B+W filters are solid Schott Glass, water type, crystal clear. No B+W filter has ever been made with green glass. and they never will, I hope. Quality should always have its standards and the word quality should be more than just a word on a box. Most of all B+W filters have mono coatings on both sides (in some places called double coatings, the double = one on each side)
The new B+W MRC coatings are the quality that B+W needed to offer their customers, the new B+W MRC coating is as good as it can be 99.5% transmission. the MRC coating is coming on all the Multicoated polarizers".

FYI http://www.tiffen.com/filters.htm

http://www.tiffen.com/enhancing_filter_pics.htm

Hope this helps,

Jimbra

here's a new one...i just cleaned my filter really well for the first time in 200 hours or so. Suddenly...the fan is much louder....if i muffle the filter (which i assume it was from the dirt before) noise level is back to normal.

Guess i'll have to wait for it to get dirty again before it resumes it's quite levels

Need help from Photo-Gurus.

Question: Glass Filter Lifetime

Does anyone know the lifetime of a typical glass filter (like the one discussed above, or gel or resin)? How long will a filter last before degrading its filter properties?
What properties will extend the life of a filter?

This information would be nice to know before buying one of the screw-on filter.

Thanks guys,

Originally posted by Tme_2_Ride
Can the HDMI dropouts be bad enough to give a blue screen or would this be a different problem?

Denon 2910(v7 firmware)--->HDMI (40'cable) ---->AE700

If I use component out from 2910, picture looks great. But, when I use HDMI I get severe dropouts causing a blue screen.

I did search this thread but the only complaint i saw on HDMI dropouts was intermittent sparkles so I wanted to get your opinion on if the blue screen could be cable related also. Or do you think it's a different issue. Would the AE700 firmware fix this issue. It just seems more severe than what you guys are experiencing.

I have ordered a different brand HDMI 40' cable to see if it corrects the problem.

Thanks,

Time2Ride


Time2Ride,

Interesting that you are having problems.
I am running a 30' HDMI/HDMI cable from RAM Electronics from my 2910 to my AE-700 and am not experiencing any problems.
Now, I don't know if there has been any picture degradation because of the longer length because I went from S-video to the HDMI cable and at the same time upgraded DVD players
I also have a 30 foot component cable as well, but have not checked the difference in quality between the two.
My guess is it is more of an issue with your DVD player or pj or even the cable itself, not your cable length.


Craig

Most good glass filters will not degrade. At least not in the lifetime of the PJ. The coloration in the filter is stable especially if it is a dichroic filter. That being said though, I'm not 100% sure how the KR6 filters will do with the PJ since they're usually used for camerawork and as such, aren't usually subjected to intense light.

Gel filters however DO fade over time. How quickly they fade will depend on how the filter is made and how much light and heat it is continually subjected to so for those thinking about taking the plunge to purchase the KR6 81EF filters, I doubt you'ld have to worry about replacing it before you replace the PJ.

OK, I'm torn. I have tried out the Lee Light Salmon filter with decent results. I am also prepared to use the Pale Gold or Medium Bastard Amber Filter which seem like an improvement over the Light Salmon (according to others here). After reading the past few posts (and looking at screen caps) I am now considering the B+W 81EF but wondering if the jump in price is worth it? Has anyone seen either the Pale Gold or MBA AND the 81EF? Can anyone speculate as to whether or not there WOULD be a difference?

BTW, this thread has been very helpfull. Thanks

Thanks Craig....my 40' cable is from Blue Jeans but it's not working so I ordered a 40' cable from BetterCables. We'll see if it makes a difference. It's tough to troubleshoot these things when I don't have a spare cable or DVD player ...I tried to buy a 2meter hdmi cable at Best Buy just to make sure the DVD player is ok but of course they didn't have any ;) So, I may venture out tonight and try to find one somewhere else.

If the cable doesn't fix it, i'll send the pj in for the firmware upgrade and have them check out the hdmi at the same time.

Appreciate the input,

Time2Ride
Todd

1.) my Filter Heliopan KR6/81EF is a little bit too green(for my PJ)

2.) my Filter Heliopan KR6/81EF is getting a bit darker over the time(first seen it after ~50 hours) from the very strong light energy thruput(anyway it is glass! , - but for now its not so dramatic(and have >300 hours it). But it is not Multicoated! so seems better to go for a very good MC filter!

3.) Filter LEE #790 "MOROCCAN PINK" is the best(for my PJ) in VIDEO(LOWLAMP) from the whole LEE-Swatchbook to get nearest Colortemp like Cinema1(HIGHLAMP) (its better than the old KR6)

greetz,
Fazz

Interesting, it seems both Fazz and Gn0m4 are using the Heliopan brand KR6 81EF and indicating too much green.

Bradbissel used the B+W KR6 81EF and says it is just right.

Should brand matter if they are both KR6 81EF filters?

I'll be testing the Lee's pink Salmon tonight with AussieBob's settings and report my results.

For those of you in / near Toronto I just called Henry's Photo about the B+W KR6 81EF and their price for a special order was $115 CAD so I guess I'll be finding another source.

Anybody know if we can order these from B+W as a group? I'd be into our own little powerbuy for this.

Originally posted by dm
Interesting, it seems both Fazz and Gn0m4 are using the Heliopan brand KR6 81EF and indicating too much green.

Bradbissel used the B+W KR6 81EF and says it is just right.

Should brand matter if they are both KR6 81EF filters?

Perhaps the issue is multicoating...
Fazz, was your helopian multicoated??

My B+W multicoated filter is on it's way from NY. I'll post my results when it arrives.

If the settings don't work then I will likely order SMARTIII (Unless someone wants to rent theirs):D

Dave

Originally posted by eme1
This is the one I found; it's in stock. I hope it's the right filter. I have tried all the Lee filters suggested here, at $6 a pop + $11 for an adaptor, and non of them really wowed me. This one is really expensive for me so I hope it works.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

Something I found about the B+W filter.


"B+W filters are solid Schott Glass, water type, crystal clear. No B+W filter has ever been made with green glass. and they never will, I hope. Quality should always have its standards and the word quality should be more than just a word on a box. Most of all B+W filters have mono coatings on both sides (in some places called double coatings, the double = one on each side)
The new B+W MRC coatings are the quality that B+W needed to offer their customers, the new B+W MRC coating is as good as it can be 99.5% transmission. the MRC coating is coming on all the Multicoated polarizers".



Thanks for the link to the BH Photo. The link does not show a pic of the actual filter. Do I need to buy an adaptor ring to attach this filter to the lens of my AE700? Sorry for the dumb question, but I have never tried using filters before.

Thanks,

Steve

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Thanks for the link to the BH Photo. The link does not show a pic of the actual filter. Do I need to buy an adaptor ring to attach this filter to the lens of my AE700? Sorry for the dumb question, but I have never tried using filters before.

Thanks,

Steve

The B&W filter comes with the self-attaching screw-ring, so nothing more is required.

BTW, I am pleasantly surprised at how much deeper blacks I'm getting with this filter, since the filter has such a subtle color-shift in it, without sacrificing the "pop" of colors in HD.

Thanks to Brad for his SMARTIII work and recommendation, as well as AussieBob for the free Lee filter samples and settings that started most of us down this path of tweaking.

OK, I just ordered my filter from BH Photo. Should be here some time next week .

I was skeptical about using a filter until I saw the "before" and "after" comparsion pics that have been posted here.

Many thanks to all you "video geeks" who did all the hard work so that the rest of us can copy you. ;)

Originally posted by AVWH
The B&W filter comes with the self-attaching screw-ring, so nothing more is required.

BTW, I am pleasantly surprised at how much deeper blacks I'm getting with this filter, since the filter has such a subtle color-shift in it, without sacrificing the "pop" of colors in HD.

Thanks to Brad for his SMARTIII work and recommendation, as well as AussieBob for the free Lee filter samples and settings that started most of us down this path of tweaking.

AVWH,

Just curious ...

When you set up the B&W filter, did you use the exact same settings that Brad posted on this thread or did you make your own adjustments?

Thanks,

Stee