Originally posted by SteveCoug
Thanks for the link to the BH Photo. The link does not show a pic of the actual filter. Do I need to buy an adaptor ring to attach this filter to the lens of my AE700? Sorry for the dumb question, but I have never tried using filters before.

Thanks,

Steve

Your welcome. I'm glad I could contribute a little bit. I guess your question already got answered. I can't wait to get my filter and trying it out. The with vs. without filter pictures of Gnom4 impressed me a lot. I will post my
impressions of the B+w filter ones I get it.

Originally posted by duihlein
Perhaps the issue is multicoating...
Fazz, was your helopian multicoated??


OK edit attempt number 3. Work damn you!

Maybe the multi coated filters would appear greener. Look at the light transmission characteristics of the B+W multi coatings in the link below:

w w w.schneiderkreuznach.com / pdf / filter / p4.pdf

take out the spaces as i cant post urls yet.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
AVWH,

Just curious ...

When you set up the B&W filter, did you use the exact same settings that Brad posted on this thread or did you make your own adjustments?

Thanks,

Stee Used his as the starting point, then tweaked very slightly to taste on sharpness, contrast, etc. - but the advanced settings are all still the same as Brad's, IIRC.

I had a look at the with/without pics on Gnom4's link, and it appeared to me that although the blacks with the filter were definately deeper, they also appeared to swallow up a lot of the detail. eg the carbon fibre part to the left of Mark Weber's helmet in deccra's post. Is this just the monitor I'm looking at it on, or am I missing something else? Is this just a trade-off we have to live with?

I just place order on B&W filter, and wondering - those with filter, what screen are you using? mine is HCMW, i wonder if anyone is using this screen?

Thanks

Baja

Originally posted by czzer
I had a look at the with/without pics on Gnom4's link, and it appeared to me that although the blacks with the filter were definately deeper, they also appeared to swallow up a lot of the detail. eg the carbon fibre part to the left of Mark Weber's helmet in deccra's post. Is this just the monitor I'm looking at it on, or am I missing something else? Is this just a trade-off we have to live with?

Hi czzer,
I have a calibrated monitor so I thought I'd have a look at the pictures you were talking about (the carbon fibre part to the left of his helmet). The part is a lot darker but all the detail is still there. I assume if the contrast was greater then darks would generally be darker. If the detail was lost and it became just black all over I'd say the brightness is too low. (Why is it most monitors must be run up near 100% for correct brightness?)

Originally posted by AVWH
Used his as the starting point, then tweaked very slightly to taste on sharpness, contrast, etc. - but the advanced settings are all still the same as Brad's, IIRC.

Are you using the MRC (multi coated) or regular version of the B+W filter?

So I briefly tested the light salmon Lee filter and Aussie bob's settings. Wifey has trouble being excited about testing so I'll have to continue another time.

I definitely detected an improvement. I would say it is about the same level of change as from low lamp to high lamp mode. Not the same changes of course but a similar step in contrast as the lamp mode does to brightness.

I'm now even more tempted to order the B+W filter since the corkin filter holder, together with my home made lee filter mount looks terrible and needs to be removed for me to put the lens cap on.

I do have a problem with skin tones being too yellow. It is almost like mpeg 2 compression blocking that I see on SD satellite feeds in dark colours but it is on people's skin and is very distracting. MOst of the face will be all right but forehead and around the mouth can become a clump of yellowed skin.

I'll try and post a screen shot if I can make a good one.

This is in all modes with and without the filter. Suggestions?

So here is my entry into the AE700 filters fray....

EDIT ON: Here is where I started....NORMAL mode, no filter, using PJ color settings that KBK posted awhile back to this thread. Looking at this picture now, it is lacking in red:

http://img237.exs.cx/img237/5899/img24037fl.jpg

EDIT OFF

I purchased a B+W KR6 81EF MRC (the multi coated one):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

By the way, the 77mm B+W filter is threaded and those threads do match up with the panny lens. However, you should be careful not to overtighten the filter in place. A few turns of the filter once the threads engage is all that is required.

I assumed that the stock CINEMA1 setting on the panny is 6500K and is the ideal color balance to strive for. I do not have colorfacts or SMART III. But I do have the AVIA DVD. The cine4home.de review indicated that the panny CINEMA1 was a nearly perfect 6500K:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic%20PTAE700/RGBCinema1.JPG
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic%20PTAE700/PT700Test.htm

I set my camera to ISO 100, no flash, whitebalance "cloudy day" which is near 6500K I am told. I did not tripod mount my camera. So the pictures are blurry. Sorry. I am mainly trying to show the color balance with these shots.

Here is a screen shot in CINEMA1 mode, all color settings at 0 or default:

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/6741/img24106di.jpg

Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, about 7 min 45 sec into movie.

The CINEMA1 mode is my baseline and what I hope to match with the filter.

I first tried the bradbissel VIDEO mode filter settings. That resulted in a picture that was too green/blue.

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/5258/img24066rt.jpg

I then tried a modified version of the Gn0m4 VIDEO mode filter settings as follows:

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0

Temp colour: -1
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0

This is my current working settings with the filter and here is a screen shot:

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8040/img24133bl.jpg

Originally posted by dm
So here is my entry into the AE700 filters fray....

I purchased a B+W KR6 81EF MRC (the multi coated one):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

By the way, the 77mm B+W filter is threaded and those threads do match up with the panny lens. However, you should be careful not to overtighten the filter in place. A few turns of the filter once the threads engage is all that is required.

I assumed that the stock CINEMA1 setting on the panny is 6500K and is the ideal color balance to strive for. I do not have colorfacts or SMART III. But I do have the AVIA DVD. The cine4home.de review indicated that the panny CINEMA1 was a nearly perfect 6500K:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic%20PTAE700/RGBCinema1.JPG
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic%20PTAE700/PT700Test.htm

I set my camera to ISO 100, no flash, whitebalance "cloudy day" which is near 6500K I am told. I did not tripod mount my camera. So the pictures are blurry. Sorry. I am mainly trying to show the color balance with these shots.

Here is a screen shot in CINEMA1 mode, all color settings at 0 or default:

http://members.cox.net/dm1234/IMG_2410.JPG

Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, about 7 min 45 sec into movie.

The CINEMA1 mode is my baseline and what I hope to match with the filter.

I first tried the bradbissel VIDEO mode filter settings. That resulted in a picture that was too green/blue.

http://members.cox.net/dm1234/IMG_2406.JPG

I then tried a modified version of the Gn0m4 VIDEO mode filter settings as follows:

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Colour: -1
Temp colour: 0
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0

This is my current working settings with the filter and here is a screen shot:

http://members.cox.net/dm1234/IMG_2413.JPG

dm,

Great post!

My B&W filter will be here in a few days and I'm anxious to try it out.

I have been using the "Natural" mode which was the other mode that Cine4home recommended as the most accurate color setting.

Frankly, I have been pretty happy with it. But when I saw Gn0m4's pics showing the difference using the filter, I could not resist going for the filter.

BTW, I am surprised you are using "0" settings for brightness and contrast. When I used Avia DVD to set up my PJ I ended up with something like 8+ brightness and -13 contrast (too lazy to go look at my PJ right now for the exact settings). I guess the combo of the B&W filter and the advanced color settings tweak makes up for this, is that correct?

It would be great if other people would post their experience with the B&W filter, since that seems to be the best one to get.

Thanks again!

I am not using colorfacts or SMARTIII so my adjustments are by eye to what I see on my screen. Under these circumstances room lighting, screen gain and color shift, and even my source (HTPC ATI 9600XT cat 5.1 drivers, zoomplayer with nvidia video filters) may make my settings specific to my setup.

I found that the best way to calibrate is to use the CINEMA1 mode with all settings at default. ASSUME (big assumption!) that this is true 6500K. And tweak the filtered VIDEO mode to match. A digital camera does help here. Taking pictures of both CINEMA1 and VIDEO filtered and adjusted modes and then comparing the pics. The AVIA DVD disk is somewhat helpful here to dial in the colors. But you really cannot assume that with the AVIA disk that you will get the full 10-100IRE lines for all colors dead on without using some measurement equipment I dont have.

My settings are what looks good to my eye. I have not decided if I want to purchase SMARTIII to get an acurate measurement of what I am seeing.

dm,

I haven´t got "LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring", can u post other photo with a image of "two towers" or "return of the king" ?
I´d like to compare ur B+W filter and my Heliopan filter.
Thanks ;)

Originally posted by Gn0m4
dm,

I haven´t got "LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring", can u post other photo with a image of "two towers" or "return of the king" ?
I´d like to compare ur B+W filter and my Heliopan filter.
Thanks ;)

I noticed in your picture posts on your heliopan filter that it is marked with a "1.5x" on the ring of the filter. My B+W is marked "1.4x" filter factor.

I will try and post some additional pics tomorrow.

Note that I edited my picture post above with a comparison shot to my initial non-filter NORMAL mode starting point.

Originally posted by dm
I am not using colorfacts or SMARTIII so my adjustments are by eye to what I see on my screen. Under these circumstances room lighting, screen gain and color shift, and even my source (HTPC ATI 9600XT cat 5.1 drivers, zoomplayer with nvidia video filters) may make my settings specific to my setup.

I found that the best way to calibrate is to use the CINEMA1 mode with all settings at default. ASSUME (big assumption!) that this is true 6500K. And tweak the filtered VIDEO mode to match. A digital camera does help here. Taking pictures of both CINEMA1 and VIDEO filtered and adjusted modes and then comparing the pics. The AVIA DVD disk is somewhat helpful here to dial in the colors. But you really cannot assume that with the AVIA disk that you will get the full 10-100IRE lines for all colors dead on without using some measurement equipment I dont have.

My settings are what looks good to my eye. I have not decided if I want to purchase SMARTIII to get an acurate measurement of what I am seeing.


dm,

IIRC, the "perfect" color setting according to Cine4home is the Cinema1 mode with a "-1" Color Temp setting, not the default "0" Color Temp. You can search this thread to verify this.

Steve

dm - Thank You - You're Da Man.

You answer every questions I has in mind. I can't wait to get the filter, hopefully by Monday. Dang! what a different the filter makes.

Thanks

Baja

Hi everyone and thanks for the tweaks! They have been very helpful comparing my own settings to everyone else's. I haven't committed myself to purchasing a filter yet. I am still trying to decide if I need it. Has anyone had their PJ calibrated by an ISF technician?

I have not been following the other Panasonic threads, but here is a link to Ultimate A/V mag's review of the Panny PJ.

http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/205panasonic/

Keep them post and tweaks coming!

Robert_W.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
dm,

IIRC, the "perfect" color setting according to Cine4home is the Cinema1 mode with a "-1" Color Temp setting, not the default "0" Color Temp. You can search this thread to verify this.

Steve

actually cine4home felt that NATURAL color temp -1 was a good alternate to CINEMA1

see here (german):
http://www.cine4home.de/Tuning/PanaPTAE700/PTAE700Tuning.htm

dm, thx for the pictures comparison.

... I think I see an improvement on ... Frodo's smile!! :) Sure hope you're not trying to help B+W with some subliminal messages ;)

For the Canadians users looking for the B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF MRC filter: After calling the main photo shops in Montreal with no luck I contacted redravenphoto.com that seems to be the main distributor for B+W products in Canada. Here's what they told me:

<<Unfortunately we do not stock the particular filter, 77mm KR-6 MRC, that you are looking for. We can order this filter from the B+W factory in Germany for you, delivery would take approximately 3-4 weeks.

We can not sell to you directly. I would suggest that you put your order in through any of the major stores in Montreal, ie. L.L. Lozeau, Photo Service, Royal Photo, Imagepoint etc. All deal with us and place orders on a regular basis. The suggested list price for this filter is $170.00 [CAD$], but the dealer may quote you a lower price.>>

3-4 weeks is long. I'm tempted to go the bhphotovideo.com route at 76 US$ + 20-30$ shipping, 2-3 business days, unless I find another Canadian retailer with the filter in stock.

Originally posted by dm
actually cine4home felt that NATURAL color temp -1 was a good alternate to CINEMA1

see here (german):
http://www.cine4home.de/Tuning/PanaPTAE700/PTAE700Tuning.htm

Ah ... that must be where I got the idea!
Hard to read that German though. ;-)

Thanks for the clarification.

I have been using the Natural mode with -1 Color Temp
based on a post that somebody made several months
ago when I first set up my AE700.

I've been pretty happy with it, but I was watching
"Reservoir Dogs" a couple nights ago and it seemed
very washed out to me, could have used more
contrast, so I'm looking forward to seeing the difference
with a filter.

Niloc:

yikes....$170 (even canadian..) that is expensive for a B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF MRC. Can you get a heliopan or B+W non-MRC in stock?

Unless you are using colorfacts or SMARTIII to really measure the difference and insure absolute color temp tracking across 0-100IRE, I am not sure you will be able to tell and calibrate the difference between the various K6 81EF versions. Remember most of us are doing this by eye.

Your PJ color settings may vary between the brands of K6 81EF, but the end result:

filter + VIDEO mode + PJ color settings = near 6500K

is what you are trying to achieve.

Variations in filter will mean variations in the PJ color settings, but your still limited to your eyeballing to the 6500K goal.

Just my .02, since I have never seen anything other than my own B+W MRC filter in the flesh.

From my experience with "natural with +1 color" mode, washed out is about the most polite way I could describe the end results. Any non-optical solution to the color the bulb is outputting means EXAGGERATING the blue shift at dark levels (simple limitation of any relatively low contrast digital format.) It also means killing the contrast.

You're better off using NO adjustments if you don't want a murky-ass washed out picture with "technically color balanced" highlights. 6500K highlights, ~600:1 contrast, and 12,000K shadows really looks like vomit compared to 12,000K highlights, 12,000K shadows, and 2000:1 contrast. When the color balance varies so much over the dynamic range, your eyes adjust to the "overall" balance and thus the relative shift in black is infinitely apparent. If you leave it in video mode with no adjustments and watch it for a little bit, it actually looks less blue than the oft-suggested setting.

If you want better contrast AND color balance without using a color filter, you pretty much need DLP. But... under $100 for a good filter setup + $2,200 or so for the projector is cheaper than you'll find any 1280x720 DLP projector. I think the AE700 is an excellent value for what it is, but its not a "use it right out of the box" product unless you don't mind unform (but incorrect) color balance.

More AE700 with B+W K6 81EF MRC filter test images. Camera ISO 100, WB Cloudy Day, Tripod mounted (this time)

Lord of the Rings - ROTK Special Extended Ed
Disk 1, Chap 24, 1:19:50

CINEMA1 mode, NO FILTER, all color controls at default:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/9099/img24165tx.jpg

VIDEO mode, NO FILTER, Color controls as listed below:
(for comparison only, I dont run in this mode)
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/7596/img24150hx.jpg

VIDEO mode, B+W Filter K6 81EF MRC filter, color controls as listed below:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/5853/img24146am.jpg

VIDEO Mode Color Settings--
Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0

Temp colour: -1
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0

More Images, same VIDEO mode color settings as listed above.

LOTR - ROTK Extended ED
Disk 1, Chap 23, 1:19:14

CINEMA1 mode, NO Filter, default color settings:

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/6103/img2422cropped0fg.jpg

VIDEO mode, B+W filter, color settings as posted in previous response:

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/2881/img2420cropped5ix.jpg

These shots were of a darker scene. My camera had a harder time so I changed to ISO 200 to get the shot. Hence the image noise in the pics.

Originally posted by dm
More AE700 with B+W K6 81EF MRC filter test images. Camera ISO 100, WB Cloudy Day, Tripod mounted (this time)

Lord of the Rings - ROTK Special Extended Ed
Disk 1, Chap 24, 1:19:50

VIDEO Mode Color Settings--
Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0

Temp colour: -1
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0

Not to be rude - I have followed this thread regularly - I wanted to know what *you* are trying to achieve. I put little faith in screen shots - though they are fun to look at. I would like to know if you feel you are having some success - I trust your impressions better that your camera.;)

ted

I agree that screen shots have limited value. However, if you look at the shots I took the impact of the color correcting filter and the ability to use it to close the color balance gap in VIDEO mode to the "ideal" CINEMA1 Mode is readily visible. I don't plan to post any more screen shots. In fact, other than my initial screen shots I only really posted additional ones to satisfy Gn0m4's request.

About WMV HD:

I just bought a NVidia 6600GT graphic card to get lovely pictures on my Ptae 700 trough DVI.

I just test some HD samples materials from Microsoft: it looks wondeful on my 17"lcd screen, a little jerky with a minimized window on the ptae700 and REALLY jerky on full screen (kind of 5 pictures/secund)... :(

Do someone have a solution? My PC should not be the problem...P2,6/512ram

Thanks! :)

Originally posted by dm
Are you using the MRC (multi coated) or regular version of the B+W filter?

dm-
The filter box says "coated" - is there a code or product # that would tell me if it's MRC or regular? (Sorry, I've been traveling on business w/ very limited online access for 48 hours, hence the slow response).

AVWH:

On the B+W box my MRC has a sticker that says:

77 KR-6M 45090
MRC KR-6
KR-6
77 KR-6
MRC KR-6
KR-6 CORRECTOR AMBAR

The bar code on the box: 4 012240450909

BHPhoto stuck one of their inventory stickers on the box:
BWKR6MC77 / 65045090 (REG)
77mm (MC) KR-6 (81EF) Filter

The filter itself on the plastic ring in white letters says:
B+W 77 KR-6 1,4x MRC

Anyone else have experience with this projector and an HTPC? I am currently running a Momitsu V880 upscaled via DVI but considering going HTPC. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks for the quick response, dm.

I'll have to look when I get home (still in an airport at the moment...)

Originally posted by DB2
Anyone else have experience with this projector and an HTPC? I am currently running a Momitsu V880 upscaled via DVI but considering going HTPC. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

About 90% of my programming is through the HTPC (other 10% is HD satellite). With the right tools like FFDSHOW and Zoomplayer, you get full resizing and post processing that is excellent. I still have the stand alone DVD player but even my wife notices the much better picture that has been scaled and de-noised a bit so we only use the HTPC now. No reason to have an upscaling DVD player plus a thousand other things you can do with an HTPC. Check out the HTPC forum at AVSforum. It has tons of ideas and advice.

dm,

Lord of the Rings - ROTK Special Extended Ed
Disk 1, Chap 24, 1:19:50

http://img113.exs.cx/img113/4760/dsc005054xx.jpg


Regards

Originally posted by STV
About WMV HD:

I just bought a NVidia 6600GT graphic card to get lovely pictures on my Ptae 700 trough DVI.

I just test some HD samples materials from Microsoft: it looks wondeful on my 17"lcd screen, a little jerky with a minimized window on the ptae700 and REALLY jerky on full screen (kind of 5 pictures/secund)... :(

Do someone have a solution? My PC should not be the problem...P2,6/512ram

Thanks! :)

Are you running any post processing filters or anything? Your hardware should run this pretty easily (I assume that is a P4 2.6GHz and not a P2 600MHz). My slower CPU and much less capable video card ran the MS samples flawlessly. The only video I had problems with was the WMV HD Terminiator 2 video which needed my current (more powerful) system.

Originally posted by Cowclops
From my experience with "natural with +1 color" mode, washed out is about the most polite way I could describe the end results.

You're better off using NO adjustments if you don't want a murky-ass washed out picture with "technically color balanced" highlights. 6500K highlights, ~600:1 contrast, and 12,000K shadows really looks like vomit compared to 12,000K highlights, 12,000K shadows, and 2000:1 contrast


I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to make with this statement.
Most of the modes on the 700 could be considered "washed out" if you run DVE or AVIA on them.
The blacks are too high. A simple adjustment of the misnomered "Brightness" control will rectify said problem.

As to the colour temperature - if I recall some measurements I've made with a colour temperature meter it falls on the range of about 6700K without adjustments. The x,y vectors are not that far off though. Then again maybe that pertains to the NATURAL mode.

As to your concern to contrast - that statement is only true if CR and Blacklevel are your prime criteria - and I addressed that above.

If anyone is interested I could perhaps access the meter again and make some measurements.

ted

Originally posted by dm
I agree that screen shots have limited value. However, if you look at the shots I took the impact of the color correcting filter and the ability to use it to close the color balance gap in VIDEO mode to the "ideal" CINEMA1 Mode is readily visible. I don't plan to post any more screen shots. In fact, other than my initial screen shots I only really posted additional ones to satisfy Gn0m4's request.

I suppose what I was really interested in was discussing this somewhat - I see no real value in utilizing a colour filter unless you are attempting to max out and efficiently use the primary amps (G & B primaries are notoriously underdriven with the types of lamps) to gain a real boost in CR - which looking at your shots and taking your settings into account, I do not see.

ted l

All I meant is that absolute color balance is a pointless goal until you can at least have relative color balance across the entire dynamic range. That way, your eyes don't adjust to the "correct" highlights thus exaggerating the way-off-color shadows. A simple adjustment of "brightness" will not correct it. If the projector is really capable of 1000 lumens and its really capable of 2000:1 contrast, no electronic adjustment will make the black level less than .5 lumens. To get 6500K in white, you have to lower G and B contrast, which means reducing the maximum output from around 1000 lumens to quite a bit less. However, in doing this you are not reducing the minimum black level of .5 lumens, so you're killing both ansi and full on/off contrast, and to top it off you're not even making the 0 IRE black 6500K, its STILL going to be around 11,000K. Then if you want to equal this out so as to correct it, you have to increase R and G brightness to match the B, raising your black level about .5 lumens and further wash it out.

Since you CAN'T track 6500K across the entire grayscale without a color filter, I'm saying that its a wasted effort to throw your contrast out the window and still have strangely warm hilights but cool shadows.

Precise measurements are missing the point. Even if you calibrated it so that its white level is exactly 6500.0000000 degrees kelvin, you haven't measured entire grayscale range. The only way to get 6500K from 0 IRE to 100 IRE without a filter requires you to sacrifice a vast majority of the contrast, going down as low as what I'd venture to guess is about 600:1 full on/off and 150:1 ansi. Murky indeed.

I get the filter to increase the CR, and indeed that's the only purpose. :)

Gn0m4:

Can you provide some details on your room set up. light control, wall and ceiling color... Also what type of screen, size of screen, projecting from what distance and the gain of the screen. What is your dvd source also Thanks in advance. Your pics, especially the contrast are very impressive.

I dont have anyway of directly measuring CR, 6500K, etc. I did my research here, mag reviews, cine4home.de, etc. This research led me to the following conclusions/assumptions:

1. The AE700 CINEMA1 and to a lessor extent NATURAL mode measures the most accurate 6500K, but has signficantly reduced light output.

2. The AE700 VIDEO, DYNAMIC, NORMAL, CINEMA2 are the brightess modes with the most CR.

3. With the right optical filter to add RED one could combine the brightness and CR of VIDEO with the color accuracy of CINEMA1 mode to maximize the performance of the PJ uptop the limits of internal LCD panels.

Again, without calibrated light meters, the best I can do is follow the assumptions above.

Originally posted by Gn0m4
dm,

Lord of the Rings - ROTK Special Extended Ed
Disk 1, Chap 24, 1:19:50




Regards

I must say Gn0m4, you certainly can take a good picture. Do you have the sharpness setting turned up on your AE700? Your camera and/or picture taking abilities are certainly better than mine.

Originally posted by Cowclops
All I meant is that absolute color balance is a pointless goal until you can at least have relative color balance across the entire dynamic range. That way, your eyes don't adjust to the "correct" highlights thus exaggerating the way-off-color shadows.

Regardless of what some have said on this thread, most material is produced with D65 in mind, if it is indeed "pointless" to have your display convey that, as accurately as possible, then that is your choice. It would seem to me that if you are able to quickly discern "way off colour shadows" after your eyes have adjusted to D65 whites then your eyes are certainly better than mine which have watched over 25 years of broadcast production pass before them, much of that time spent colour balancing production cameras and telecine chains. Not to mention the rest of the population because our eyes are notoriously poor on colour perception as the object gets dimmer.

A simple adjustment of "brightness" will not correct it. If the projector is really capable of 1000 lumens and its really capable of 2000:1 contrast, no electronic adjustment will make the black level less than .5 lumens. To get 6500K in white, you have to lower G and B contrast, which means reducing the maximum output from around 1000 lumens to quite a bit less. However, in doing this you are not reducing the minimum black level of .5 lumens, so you're killing both ansi and full on/off contrast, and to top it off you're not even making the 0 IRE black 6500K, its STILL going to be around 11,000K. Then if you want to equal this out so as to correct it, you have to increase R and G brightness to match the B, raising your black level about .5 lumens and further wash it out.

As has been stated many times, most PJ's are only capable of such CR/Luminance levels in blown out modes such as VIDEO and DYNAMIC. For some, colour accuracy is as valid a template as CR or black level.
Of course a simple adjustment of black level by lowering BRIGHTNESS will not correct colour balance errors and no one is suggesting that. It will however, provide a less "washed out" more clearly delineated image regardless of its colour balance if indeed the blacks are too high, and in the case of the NATURAL mode they certainly are.

Since you CAN'T track 6500K across the entire grayscale without a color filter, I'm saying that its a wasted effort to throw your contrast out the window and still have strangely warm highlights but cool shadows.

Precise measurements are missing the point. Even if you calibrated it so that its white level is exactly 6500.0000000 degrees kelvin, you haven't measured entire grayscale range. The only way to get 6500K from 0 IRE to 100 IRE without a filter requires you to sacrifice a vast majority of the contrast, going down as low as what I'd venture to guess is about 600:1 full on/off and 150:1 ansi. Murky indeed.

It seems to me you've missed much of the recent thrust of this thread which is *precisely* about utilizing filters to achieve better results. Your argument is with a straw man. The problem here is with the inherent colour spectrum of a UHP bulb and nothing short of replacing the bulb with a 6500K source or a CC filter is going to change that, so for me either you are a CRT fellow making some dubious point or you are arguing for PJ design that is only in the labs - based on an LED or Laser light source. In the context of this thread *that* is "pointless". You comment on a PJ's inability to colour balance throughout its entire range - at what delta do you consider acceptable? Can you recommend a device within this price range that can do such a thing? I doubt the QUALIA is entirely flat from 0 to 100 IRE. I've yet to see a studio camera that didn't need "painting" further once its grey scale had been properly balanced.

ted

Regardless of what some have said on this thread, most material is produced with D65 in mind, if it is indeed "pointless" to have your display convey that, as accurately as possible, then that is your choice. It would seem to me that if you are able to quickly discern "way off colour shadows" after your eyes have adjusted to D65 whites then your eyes are certainly better than mine which have watched over 25 years of broadcast production pass before them, much of that time spent colour balancing production cameras and telecine chains. Not to mention the rest of the population because our eyes are notoriously poor on colour perception as the object gets dimmer.

I didn't say it was pointless to have the display balanced to D65, I said that the only good way to do it is with a filter. It sounded like you were doubtful of the usefulness of a color filter in the first place, so that is what I'm responding to.

This has been my main point all along. The only way to get the color uniform across the entire dynamic range without sacrificing a huge amount of contrast is to use a filter. This was no attempt at a straw man, as it was a response to one of your other posts.

Since, like just about every LCD projector, you can't get as accurate color as you can on a CRT, I think this attempt at color balancing without using a filter is a waste of time. It comes down to the difference between precision and accuracy... why try to precisely set the white level when you can't even come close to correct black level without a filter?

Actually, if this was in response to anything, it is the original suggestion that natural with color +1 is a good mode to use based on that german site that fiddled with the stuff. That does give you the most accurate whites out of the box, but look at the graph of blue near 0 IRE... its completely out of control. I doubt I'm the only person here who has no trouble at all distinguishing off color shadows. Even the 32" Panasonic HD CRT I used to have had the red bias set wrong, so I went into the service menu, fixed it, and no longer did my shadows have a red tint. I don't think its that hard to notice, and I know not everyone in here is as much of a color freak, but for those who aren't used to easily eyeballing color balance why sacrifice all that contrast? Either just use video mode, or if you want 6500K use video mode and get a color filter. Its simple.

Gn0m4,

I would also like to know the specifications on your setup. I know screenshots don't say much...but the constrast ratio on yours is stunning. Screen material? Throw distance? Room conditions? DVD Player?

Are you using the B+W KR6 81EF Multi Coated or just the standard B+W KR6 81EF?

Just curious to what your basic settings are for constrast, hue, tint, brightness, saturation, etc.

Sorry for all the questions...I am just trying to achieve the best possible and it seems like you are pretty darn close. Thanks.

Again...Great shots and thank you for your help

-Kosta

Could you please tell me what to look for between the cinema1 mode screenshot and the video mode with filter screenshot. To me the pictures look very similar, but I have no training in calibrating a picture and have no idea what to look for. I know those that know what to look for are saying the picture with the filter is much better, but the only thing I really see is his face is a bit redder in the video+filter mode.

I also don't think the video+no filter picture looks good at all, but I'm assuming it's not supposed to look good, and this isn't a mode someone would use (as you say it's for comparison only).

John

Originally posted by dm
More AE700 with B+W K6 81EF MRC filter test images. Camera ISO 100, WB Cloudy Day, Tripod mounted (this time)

Lord of the Rings - ROTK Special Extended Ed
Disk 1, Chap 24, 1:19:50

CINEMA1 mode, NO FILTER, all color controls at default:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/9099/img24165tx.jpg

VIDEO mode, NO FILTER, Color controls as listed below:
(for comparison only, I dont run in this mode)
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/7596/img24150hx.jpg

VIDEO mode, B+W Filter K6 81EF MRC filter, color controls as listed below:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/5853/img24146am.jpg

VIDEO Mode Color Settings--
Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0

Temp colour: -1
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0

jcg:

The point of the CINEMA1 and VIDEO+filter shot is that they ARE similar. The only way to get VIDEO mode color correct is with a filter. What is not obvious from the shots, is that the VIDEO + filter shot is brighter (when viewed with the naked eye in my HT) than the CINEMA1 shot but still maintains the color balance we are looking for.

The VIDEO with NO filter shot is there just for comparison to show how BAD the color is in that mode without a filter to bring out the REDS.

This is a fascinating thread, but one thing I have not found is Settings (either User or Service Menu), for those using the HDMI input and firware versions 1.05 or 1.07. If any of you using this confirguation would be so kind as to post it would be greatly appreciated.

I've had the AE-700 for about a week and am very impressed with it based upon its cost. My past experience with firmware updates in projectors leads me to believe that one should not assume that settings that looked great on previous firmware versions will look the same with newer firmware. Also, it appears that the majority of those posting to this thread are either using the VGA or Component inputs, so settings for HDMI would be very helpful. FWIW, I'm using firware 1.05 and have seen no "flashes" as described in this thread with earlier firmware. The "overscan" problem still exists.
Thanks,

Kostavan,

Projector: Panasonic PT-AE700 (HDMI)
Filter: Heliopan red KR-6-81EF (77mm)
Screen: Dalite HC 1,70m
Throw distance: 3m
HTPC: DScaler, Avisynth, FFdshow, Zoomplayer, Reclock.
Control light: Total

http://img236.exs.cx/img236/7148/dsc004738cv.jpg

http://img236.exs.cx/img236/4714/dsc004756yh.jpg

http://img231.exs.cx/img231/8863/dsc004773kf.jpg

Camara: Sony DSC-L1L
Config projector:

.- Mode: Video
.- Lamp: High
.- Contrast: 4
.- Brightness: 0
.- Colour: -2
.- Temp colour: 0
.- Iris: on
.- Gamma High: 0
.- Gamma Mid: 0
.- Gamma Low: 0
.- Contrast R: -2
.- Contrast G: -2
.- Contrast B: 0
.- Bright R: 0
.- Bright G: 0
.- Bright B: 0



Regards.
-QuinT-

Originally posted by dm
With the right optical filter to add RED...

Originally posted by dm
... show how BAD the color is in that mode without a filter to bring out the REDS.

Minor point: the filter is not adding red, it's reducing everything else. It's generally the same thing, but the difference is why filters are used instead of just having the pj crank out more red.

I guess my eyes are OK then :) as I was starting to think I just couldn't see these color/brightness/CR benefits everyone is talking about in this thread. So the screenshots can't depict the actual brightness because the camera somehow diminishes that? How much brighter in real life is the video mode + filter?

John

Originally posted by dm
jcg:

The point of the CINEMA1 and VIDEO+filter shot is that they ARE similar. The only way to get VIDEO mode color correct is with a filter. What is not obvious from the shots, is that the VIDEO + filter shot is brighter (when viewed with the naked eye in my HT) than the CINEMA1 shot but still maintains the color balance we are looking for.

The VIDEO with NO filter shot is there just for comparison to show how BAD the color is in that mode without a filter to bring out the REDS.

So which filter would most be recommended? It seems Gnom4 has the best screen shots with the Heliopan KR6 81EF but he and others have mentioned that the Heliopan filtered seems to push green a little too much.

So would the B+W or the Heliopan be a better choice? What have others decided upon? Thanks.

-KostaVan

NO no,

The B+W filter with MY config (Heliopan) teends to green.
The Heliopan filter with her config (B+W) teends to green.

Gnom4:

Could you detail your ffdshow settings? Are you just resizing to 1280 by 720 ? Lanczos with what paramater and Luma sharpen at what ?

Also its hard to tell but what is your ceiling and wall color ?

Thanks :)

Those seeking CR and Brightness Nirvana might want to give this article (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/panasonic-pt-ae700u-projector-2-2005-part-1.html) and try out the NORMAL mode for size.
In the Normal mode, grayscale tracking remained excellent, as can be seen in the graph above, but now the contrast ratio, climbed to 560:1 with the Dynamic Iris off, and the black level fell a factor of 3 when the iris control was activated, suggesting a Dynamic Contrast ratio of 1665:1. In the Normal picture mode, the light level at the screen was 22.8 ftL (IRE 100 full field) suggesting a light output from the projector of 720 ANSI lumens in the low lamp mode

ted

so what to do what to do....Work with VIDEO or NORMAL mode? Which can be color corrected and yeild the most light output?

I'm using HTPC, my color and tint controls are grade out. Any suggestions?
I want to try the normal mode as stated above.

you must be using vga. htpc with hdmi has those controls. do yourself a favor and get a dvi cable at least to try it.

so what to do what to do....Work with VIDEO or NORMAL mode? Which can be color corrected and yield the most light output?


After more then 100 "testing" calibrations(BTW: have build my own hardware and written my own software) my experience for my AE700 with Heliopan KR6 is that NORMAL-mode is much easier to tame than VIDEO-mode.

And Gamma is much better!!



The amount of light is in direct relation to the CONTRAST setting in each mode.



ps: sorry for my bad English

greetings,
Fazz

Could you detail your ffdshow settings? Are you just resizing to 1280 by 720 ? Lanczos with what paramater and Luma sharpen at what ?

I think this isn't the indicated post to write my configuration.
In This post (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29764728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=810) u can see my actual config.

Also its hard to tell but what is your ceiling and wall color ?

Green clear with littles points of white. I think I must put black fabric alongside of the screen because wall reflects a lot of light

After more then 100 "testing" calibrations(BTW: have build my own hardware and written my own software) my experience for my AE700 with Heliopan KR6 is that NORMAL-mode is much easier to tame than VIDEO-mode.

Please, Can u give me ur config to test in this afternoon?
Thanks

you must be using vga. htpc with hdmi has those controls. do yourself a favor and get a dvi cable at least to try it.

Yes I am using VGA, I will be purchasing an HDMI cable soon. GNOM4 can take amazing pictures of his screen, the guy has talent. I don't think it looks that good in real life (no offense to GNOM4). His screen shots looks like plasma tv showing HD! My ae700 always looks a liitle bit washed out in dark scenes no matter what I try and in any mode (Dynamic, Video or Normal). GNOM4 does your pictures show what you see in real life when watching a movie? Or does the pictures have better contrast? In another note, does somebody know what the contrast ratio of Video mode without filter?

I doubt that is helpful, but it was requested, so here are my last/actual settings.

AE700(390Hours on Lampcounter) with Heliopan KR6/81EF(Filter already slightly dimmed by strong light-thruput)

.- Mode: Normal
.- Lamp: Low
.- Contrast: -6
.- Brightness: +4
.- Temp colour: 0
.- Iris: on
.- Gamma High: 0
.- Gamma Mid: -1
.- Gamma Low: +1
.- Contrast R: -2
.- Contrast G: -1
.- Contrast B: 0
.- Bright R: -4
.- Bright G: -3
.- Bright B: -1

greetz,
fazz

Originally posted by dm
so what to do what to do....Work with VIDEO or NORMAL mode? Which can be color corrected and yeild the most light output?

If that question was meant for me... without tools like SMART III, what I would do would be what bradbissell posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5208615#post5208615)
earlier in the thread.

Initially when I asked if you had achieved any of your goals it was because I had noticed that in most if not all of the settings postings save Brad's people were actually *lowering* the Green and Blue primaries to achieve their colour balance.
This actually runs counter to what you are trying to achieve.
If you are trying to increase CR with a reddish type filter (and with RED deficient UHP bulbs that is the filter type you will need), the goal is to set you primaries at their *maximum* before they run out of gain. The reason for this is that the filter will affect the CR in a uniform manner when first applied - lowering both blacks and whites - by boosting the gains on your primaries you are utilizing the PJs maximum luminance while keeping the blacks in their lowered state.

There have been a few threads in the past addressing this very issue. Here (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3373998#post3373998) you will find a comment from glenned which outlines this very idea in a far more articulate manner than I might. The complete thread entitled How do CC filters improve CR? (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=365857) contains comments from some of the more learned members of the AVS community and is definitely worth a read.

Steve Smallcombe the creator of SMART III has written about this method outlined here (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/CCfilters.html) and in a FAQ here (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/FAQ.html#filter)
He has also addressed this in a message regarding the Z2 which might pertain to AE700 which can be found in this AVS message. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4226938#post4226938)

All these links are worth reading if you are utilizing filters to increase CR with a PJ. I apologize in advance if you have read these or if I have blinded you with science. I'm still learning, and try to help where I can - its part of my education (well OK I can be obsessive ;) ). I do have an advantage in that I've directly worked with colour balancing CRT tube cameras and work in production with CCD based tech so the test signals (though I'm just a button pusher) are quite familiar to me.

As to my plans - have I bored you with this story? :D
I plan to do similar things to what FAZZ said in reply to you After more then 100 "testing" calibrations(BTW: have build my own hardware and written my own software) my experience for my AE700 with Heliopan KR6 is that NORMAL-mode is much easier to tame than VIDEO-mode.

Gamma tracking is going to be one of the most difficult things to do by sight hence it might be better to start with a bright mode that has good Gamma.
Work with the Dynamic Iris OFF until you get things the way you want them.
Last night I played with a LEE CCR30 swatch in NORMAL mode to see if I could achieve a rough balance. I was pleased to see that the GREEN and BLUE primaries were able to be pushed to about +14 or so before they began to max out - regaining most of the light lost due to the filter. The colour temp meter that I've access to read about 5800K , so to achieve D65 I will probably have to use a less red filter - I might try the one others have mentioned in this thread.

This right now is rather roughshod and uncertain, so long term because I like good tools I plan to buy SMART III.

I hope some of this rather long and perhaps superfluous mess may be of some use and doesn't make your eyes glaze over.

ted

Based on this article it also looks like all these results were obtained with the lamp in low mode (so the fan is also quiet). I think most of the results up to this point had the lamp in high mode, right?

John

Originally posted by tvted
Those seeking CR and Brightness Nirvana might want to give this article (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/panasonic-pt-ae700u-projector-2-2005-part-1.html) and try out the NORMAL mode for size.


ted

Originally posted by tvted


Initially when I asked if you had achieved any of your goals it was because I had noticed that in most if not all of the settings postings save Brad's people were actually *lowering* the Green and Blue primaries to achieve their colour balance.
This actually runs counter to what you are trying to achieve.ted

Thanks for your long post with references, most of them I have previously read, but now I am going back to review them with my current knowledge and understanding gained by tweaking.

One point on the *lowering* of G and B. It is my understanding that when you switch to VIDEO (or NORMAL) mode that the G and B panels are being run at a higher setting due to the mode selection. So if that is true, then a -1 or -2 tick on the G and B settings in VIDEO mode is still (hopefully) brighter than the +0 setting of G and B in the color correct CINEMA1 mode.

You just need the VIDEO -1 or -2 on G and B setting to keep the color balance correct even with the filter.

http://www.enhancedht.com/filterinfo).htm

On the issue of filter lens bleaching and fading over time.....Does anyone have a an opinion on if a MRC (multicoated) filter will resist aging better than a mono or non coated filter? If the MRC filter is passing more light, less is being blocked or reflected, could this help the filter resist the fading process?

In low lamp mode, is the dynamic IRIS functioning? Even if you have IRIS on in the settings?

Originally posted by dm
In low lamp mode, is the dynamic IRIS functioning? Even if you have IRIS on in the settings?

Yes, as long as it *is* set to ON.

As to your reasoning with VIDEO mode - I understand what you are saying - but there is *still* plenty of gain in the amps. Increase RED as well if the gain is there. Remember you are trying to maximize the output of you PJ *and* still allow a bit of headroom - again refer to brads settings as measured by SMART. You can do that by backing off on the master CONTRAST (luminance) control - gosh I wish manufactures would get together and start labeling these controls correctly - it would ease the understanding of what each function *really* does.

ted

Fazz,

I test ur config in this evening. The image has less contrast in mode NORMAL, less punch and less brightness. I dont know how do u think that this mode is better than Video.
Have u compare the two modes with the same scene?


Regards.

I disagree, normal has sharper ,deeper blacks,clearer picture, and far better gamma. The colors are less absorbed giving a more realistic picture.Good job with the normal mode settings.Could someone check contrast with these settings.HINT:BRAD Bisell?

Originally posted by dm
AVWH:

On the B+W box my MRC has a sticker that says:

77 KR-6M 45090
MRC KR-6
KR-6
77 KR-6
MRC KR-6
KR-6 CORRECTOR AMBAR

The bar code on the box: 4 012240450909

BHPhoto stuck one of their inventory stickers on the box:
BWKR6MC77 / 65045090 (REG)
77mm (MC) KR-6 (81EF) Filter

The filter itself on the plastic ring in white letters says:
B+W 77 KR-6 1,4x MRC

Mine says 77 KR-6 (81EF)
E Coated

with a barcode: 4 012240 737666

so I think mine must be single-coated, not MRC.

I'm still getting much deeper blacks and better contrast than any settings I tried without a filter.

This is probably off topic, but I was just at my friends house watching his new FP and screen I recommended to him based on his budget. It was a IF 4805 and Carada BW screen. I was blown away by the contrast and color of the 4805. I think it beats my ae700 in contrast and maybe even brigthness. I hope the new B+W filter I ordered will help with my projectors contrast. I'm hoping the gurus here that owns ae700 can help me tweak my ae700 to match the IF4805. I don't want my friend to think his projector is better than mine. My B+W filter will be here tomorrow and I will be posting my impressions.

Originally posted by eme1
This is probably off topic, but I was just at my friends house watching his new FP and screen I recommended to him based on his budget. It was a IF 4805 and Carada BW screen. I was blown away by the contrast and color of the 4805. I think it beats my ae700 in contrast and maybe even brigthness. I hope the new B+W filter I ordered will help with my projectors contrast. I'm hoping the gurus here that owns ae700 can help me tweak my ae700 to match the IF4805. I don't want my friend to think his projector is better than mine. My B+W filter will be here tomorrow and I will be posting my impressions.

What filter did you order?

Originally posted by exsodius
What filter did you order?

I ordered the B+W K6 81EF MRC filter.

Fazz, I test ur config in this evening. The image has less contrast in mode NORMAL, less punch and less brightness. I dont know how do u think that this mode is better than Video. Have u compare the two modes with the same scene?

For me it has an very good black-level, a good linearity, and a good gamma-tracking(if my Program is working correct).

I also think that the Picture is a little bit darker than Cinema1 w/o Filter. But the low black-level give me the contrast-ratio. (my screen-width is only 1.8meter)


I have not compared any Scenes, because ,...

At first i've tried to use my eye's for calibration. Some Films were very good, but other films needed other settings,... very frustrating,...

Originally posted by Fazz
At first i've tried to use my eye's for calibration. Some Films were very good, but other films needed other settings,... very frustrating,...


I couldn't agree with you more. My biggest gripe is with satellite and cable reception.

Given how content varies, it really sucks that you can fine tune everything and watch every variation of errors as you flip from one channel to the next.

Well, I'm finally getting the PJ back from the FW update. UPS should be dropping it off sometime today barring any unforseen delays.

Unfortunately, I placed an order for the Smart III system and due to increased interest and orders generated by the projected release of Ver. 2.0, I was told that they have a backlog of orders and mine would only potentially be shipped out at the end of this week. They're thinking that ver. 2 might be out around the end of this week or possibly next so I'm not sure which version I'll be getting. Hmmmm... looks like it will be a while longer before I can try a proper calibration with the Roscolux vs. Lee vs GamColor filters.

Originally posted by eme1
This is probably off topic, but I was just at my friends house watching his new FP and screen I recommended to him based on his budget. It was a IF 4805 and Carada BW screen. I was blown away by the contrast and color of the 4805. I think it beats my ae700 in contrast and maybe even brigthness. I hope the new B+W filter I ordered will help with my projectors contrast. I'm hoping the gurus here that owns ae700 can help me tweak my ae700 to match the IF4805. I don't want my friend to think his projector is better than mine. My B+W filter will be here tomorrow and I will be posting my impressions.

If it makes you feel any better, I used to have an IF 4805, but I sold it and bought my AE 700. Here's why:

I am a victim of the "rainbow effect" on DLP, and it literally made me sick to watch movies on the 4805. I would get a splitting headache.

The AE700 is an HD TV projector, the 4805 is not. The 4805 can accept HD TV signal inputs, but it only outputs 480P.

Finally, the "screen door effect" is MUCH more visible on the 4805 than the AE700.

So overall, the AE700 is a much better projector. But having used both projectors, I admit that the 4805 seems to have better colors and contrast than the AE700.

But with tweaking and a filter (my B&W filter is being delivered today) you should be able to get close to the color and contrast of 4805. So you get all the advantages of the AE700, without the disadvantages typically associated with LCD projectors.

I've noticed when I fire up my AE700, the saved settings that load are NOT my filter-tweaked settings (maybe b/c that's currently saved in memory 3, not memory 1).

Is there an easy way to fix that, or do I just need to load my filter-tweaked settings into the default of memory 1, since that seems to be what automatically loads?

How much are people paying for their B+W K6 81EF MRC filters? I have only seen 99 USD from adorama.

$77 + shipping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG

Are any of you using HDMI DVD players seeing green push or depression?


Interesting thread.
"Explanation of Color Space: HDMI and DVI"

With HDMI players, they, too must properly output SD color space and inherently do so. The problem arises when the HDMI input on the projector sees a 72op or 1080i signal, thinks it's an HD signal, and automatically switches to HD Color Space. Wrong color space.


Does the AE700 allow manual selection of SD / HD colorspace?

Originally posted by andersonj55126
Are any of you using HDMI DVD players seeing green push or depression?


Interesting thread.
"Explanation of Color Space: HDMI and DVI"

Does the AE700 allow manual selection of SD / HD colorspace?

Not that I've been able to discover.
I'm not even sure whether it utilizes HD space on its HDMI input.

ted

Originally posted by dm
I must say Gn0m4, you certainly can take a good picture. Do you have the sharpness setting turned up on your AE700? Your camera and/or picture taking abilities are certainly better than mine.

dm,

I also noticed that Gn0m4's pics looked better than yours, so I was wondering if his pic looks better than what you are seeing on your PJ at home with your filter settings?

Gn0M4's pictures are much sharper than what I am seeing. However, he posted his ffdshow settings and avisynch. He is applying a significant amount of post processing sharpening to the picture. So I am not sure if the differences are due to filters and AE700 settings or in the DVD player and processing.

Got my B&W filter today and I'm trying different settings.

I REALLY appreciate you hardcore video geeks who are willing to go through endless permutations to come up with the "perfect" settings.

Frankly, I don't have the time or the expert knowledge to do that, so please continue to post your filter settings here so that mere mortal AE700 owners like me can test them out.

Right now I'm using dm's setttings. Next, I plan to try Brad Bissell's.

Thanks for the help guys!

But you dont offer an opinion if you like the results with the filter !!

Originally posted by Durabolin
But you dont offer an opinion if you like the results with the filter !!

dm's settings look good.

I get a brighter picture, yet deeper blacks than I was getting using the Natural setting.

Will post more after I've tried a couple more settings and let you know.

OK .. after giving dm's setting a spin, I went with Bradbissell's settings ...


Many people have been waiting for my calibration, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter. Well, here it is.

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1

So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

I hope everyone finds this useful, and I strongly suggest the purchase of Smart III. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his calibration software and I don't want to take away sales with this info.


I gotta say I like Brad's settings better. The colors are a little less pronounced, but more realisitic. As you can tell, I'm not a true AV geek, just going with my gut reaction. I just watched "24" in HD using Brad's settings and it looked great. I am using "0" for contrast and brightness right now. Next step is to set those using my Avia DVD.

Like many people have said on this thread, a lot of this color/contrast tweaking is a matter of taste. Use the "pro" settings as your starting point and tweak from there. I like Brad's settings better, but some may prefer dm's settings. That's why they have so many adjustments in the first place.

Steve,

When using the brightness test on Avia, I'd like to point out that the instructions for Brightness isn't intended for a digital fixed pixel display. When you adjust, make the darker bar disappear, then lighten it until it just reappears.

I happened across a 77mm threaded skylite A-1 filter (intended use is to eliminate blue shadows in outdoor photos) and was wondering if anyone knows how this compares to the other filters that are being used.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
dm's settings look good.

I get a brighter picture, yet deeper blacks than I was getting using the Natural setting.

Will post more after I've tried a couple more settings and let you know.


Though blacks should be deeper, where the CR gain is most beneficial would be in low APL scenes. In any scene with a wide range of levels Blacks and CR will look good to the eye so judging CR in scenes with good white levels will not give a true view of what you might have achieved (one of the reasons that screen shots with a high APL are deceptive as far as CR is concerned). The additional On/Off CR that you have gained will be appreciated in dark scenes where the additional headroom at low levels will allow for more detail and refinement.

In other words judge your CR gains in dark scenes not average ones.

ted

Originally posted by JimP
Steve,

When using the brightness test on Avia, I'd like to point out that the instructions for Brightness isn't intended for a digital fixed pixel display. When you adjust, make the darker bar disappear, then lighten it until it just reappears.

DVE is better in this respect.
One of the reasons UberGeeks have both.;)

ted

Originally posted by tvted
DVE is better in this respect.
One of the reasons UberGeeks have both.;)

ted


UberGeeks, lol, I like that.

One thing that I haven't tested with the AE700 is how it handles floating black levels. I'll give it a spin tonight and see what it does. Might play with that skylite filter too.

For the UberGeek in all of us, I'll be using a Accupel HD signal generator comparing the 0%, 25% and 50% APL pluge patterns at 720p over DVI/HDMI. Translation, by testing black levels with various brightness patterns, you can tell if your crushing blacks at one average scene brightness or exposing the blacker than blacks at another. My Sony LCD rear projection tv (GWIII) is pretty bad about doing this, so I basically use a compromise setting on it.

Originally posted by JimP
UberGeeks, lol, I like that.

One thing that I haven't tested with the AE700 is how it handles floating black levels. I'll give it a spin tonight and see what it does. Might play with that skylite filter too.

For the UberGeek in all of us, I'll be using a Accupel HD signal generator comparing the 0%, 25% and 50% APL pluge patterns at 720p over DVI/HDMI. Translation, by testing black levels with various brightness patterns, you can tell if your crushing blacks at one average scene brightness or exposing the blacker than blacks at another. My Sony LCD rear projection tv (GWIII) is pretty bad about doing this, so I basically use a compromise setting on it.

Accupel - Lucky you.;)

I trust you plan these tests Iris ON / Iris OFF.

ted

Originally posted by tvted
Accupel - Lucky you.;)

I trust you plan these tests Iris ON / Iris OFF.

ted


I'll check it both ways just to see what its doing.

So, does this magical filter increase black details? or just make the blacks darker?

SteveCoug-

I'm glad you found my settings pleasing. I still marvel at the contrast, however I don't get the chance to play with the projector all too often.

Make sure to run Avia, or even the THX calibration found on so many disks. You'll find contrast will improve if you set Brightness and Contrast to the levels outlined on these disks.

Originally posted by bapenguin
So, does this magical filter increase black details? or just make the blacks darker?

I stand (well OK - sit) by what I said here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5256540#post5256540)

It will not, however increase detail if there is no detail to be increased.:D

ted

[QUOTE]Originally posted by andersonj55126
[B]Are any of you using HDMI DVD players seeing green push or depression?

Yes. I was using both the LG and Toshiba V592 upconversion players, and they both have green push and macroblocking. I am also using the B&W filter with Brad's settings. I recently started using Zoom Player with ffdshow.....all connected from my pc with 4, 10ft, daisy-chained vga cables. The picture is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Colors are vibrant, scaling looks great......the LG and Toshiba have already been returned.

I just got my AE-700 last night and am having VB issues (dont want to read 55 pages of replies)... first is there a guide on how to adjust the flicker tweak to limit it as much as possible? I noticed I got VB almost nonexistant after having the pj on for ~3 hrs but when I turned it on this morning again it was worse.

Also is the "natural" color setting still the best one to use? Or was there some other setting that people have found that works better since the first pages of this thread were months ago.

By the way....I just put the filter on last week....put on Brad's setting, then tweaked. I took the filter on and off to compare several sources (SD, HD, DVD, PC). At first, it seemed to only make a minor improvement. I left it on for a few days, then decided to take it off.....I was surprised at how used to the improved picture I got (vs. my original settings). Filter went back on....it's now a permanent part of the panny. Best $80 I spent last week!

I went ahead and followed Steve Smallcombe's excellent directions for building a DIY SMART calibration system.

Info here:
http://home.pacbell.net/steve367/buildit.html

A picture of my DIY SMART sensor is here:
http://img127.exs.cx/img127/2599/img2446resized9hc.jpg
Photo cell is inside the paper tube duct taped to the camera tripod.

My DIY SMART Results are in the attached PDF file.

1. I used my VIDEO mode settings (color temp -1, contrast RED -2, Contrast Green -2) posted previously. I am of course using my B+W 81EF MRC filter.

2. The first graph in the PDF file is no filter, CINEMA1 mode, default settings. Since I do not have any D65 calibrated sources. This mode is my baseline and is assumed the "perfect" color balance. The spreadsheet uses this mode to calibrate the photocell sensor I am using. Any errors here, are carryed forward to the second graph. I know that at IRE 0 and IRE 10 that the AE700 blue channel does not perform perfectly. I don't have any way of compensating for that in my calculations.

3. In the CINEMA1 mode I calculated a CR of 503:1. This is based on an average of the (IRE 100 Red + IRE 100 Green + IRE 100 Blue ) / (IRE 0 Red + IRE 0 Blue + IRE 0 Green) measurements. At IRE 0 the photosensor is possibly not all that linear. So I am not sure if this measurement is completely valid or comparable to a CR measurement that might be made on a real light meter. Also, is this the right way to calculate CR??

4. In the VIDEO mode (with the settings stated in #1 above). I calculated a CR of 668:1. This is about a 33% increase in CR over the non filter readings.

3. The VIDEO mode curves show pretty good agreement between R/G/B. But there is room for improvement.

So all in all this was an interesting DIY exercise. I don't think that my calculations can readily be compared to other published numbers since I don't really have a calibrated mearsuing system. However, the DIY setup does give me the ability to more directly see the general changes to the color curves when I adjust the brightness and contrast settings for the R/G/B channels.

I have been told that the next release of the commercial SMARTIII system will include settings to directly handle the AE700.

Just for comparision, here is the DIY SMART measurement of the VIDEO mode, all default settings, no filter. Legend on graph says "w/filter". But that is just a cut and paste mistake. These measurements were without filter.

Note lack of red in the curves. You can't directly compare the magnitude of the measurements, I had to move the tripod between this set of measurements and the ones above.

However the relative relationships between the color curves within this graph should still be valid.

Originally posted by JimP
UberGeeks, lol, I like that.

One thing that I haven't tested with the AE700 is how it handles floating black levels. I'll give it a spin tonight and see what it does. Might play with that skylite filter too.

For the UberGeek in all of us, I'll be using a Accupel HD signal generator comparing the 0%, 25% and 50% APL pluge patterns at 720p over DVI/HDMI. Translation, by testing black levels with various brightness patterns, you can tell if your crushing blacks at one average scene brightness or exposing the blacker than blacks at another. My Sony LCD rear projection tv (GWIII) is pretty bad about doing this, so I basically use a compromise setting on it.


Done testing. Nice surprise with how the AE700 handles floating blacks in that I saw no difference between 0% and 25% APL and very little between 25% and 50%. I tested with Iris on and off. It only seemed to make black darker. Wondering what Panny did on the AE700 that Sony didn't do on the GWIIIs.

Also played with the skylite filter. My settings are basically "normal" mode. It was hard to tell the difference between subtracting 1 color temp, vs using the filter. I did notice that the extra layers of glass softened the image slightly. Wonder if others using filters also experience a softening of the image. I decided to go filterless

dm, nice work man, that's killer!

i'm about to pull the trigger on one of the glass filters

anybody find it online in the states at a good price? just wondering if someone can save me some leg work. i've seen prices anywhere from $60-$90. What should I pay and is there anything specifically to watch out for? i'm assuming the return policy on something like this is pretty non-existent and i don't want to get burned.

Please advise-

Go Ubergeeks!

Frankly, I don't understand half the stuff you guys are talking about. But if it makes my picture look better, I'm all for it.

Please keep posting your settings so the rest of us "AV Dummies" can copy your hard work. ;)

Thanks!

Steve

Originally posted by billymac
dm, nice work man, that's killer!

i'm about to pull the trigger on one of the glass filters

anybody find it online in the states at a good price? just wondering if someone can save me some leg work. i've seen prices anywhere from $60-$90. What should I pay and is there anything specifically to watch out for? i'm assuming the return policy on something like this is pretty non-existent and i don't want to get burned.

Please advise-

I recommend the BH Photo (link posted earlier in this thread). I ordered my B&W filter last Thursady and it arrived yesterday (Monday).

BH Photo is a reputable company with good service and good prices. I have purchased other stuff from them in the past.

Don't take a chance on a cheapo Internet camera store. I've been burned by those in the past. Most of them are based in Brooklyn (I wonder why?)

Originally posted by JimP
Steve,

When using the brightness test on Avia, I'd like to point out that the instructions for Brightness isn't intended for a digital fixed pixel display. When you adjust, make the darker bar disappear, then lighten it until it just reappears.

JimP,

Are you saying I should make the settings DARKER than what Avia recommends.

Before I got my filter, I set up the contrast and brightness on my PJ using Avia based on the instructions on the DVD.

I have not had time to do the brightness/contrast adjust yet with the filter.

Steve,
I would think that setting brightness is trickier for our display device because there's a whole spetrum of blacks that the device does not display.

I have used Avia to do the initial setup.

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

My Avia results are

Contrast +6
Brightness -3
Color -8
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Iris ON



When I run Smart III my gamma tacking is around 0.7 for my IRE from 0 to 50. Should I see a linear result of 1 for gamma tracking from 0 to 100 IRE when the projector is properly calibrated. If not, does someone have an answer as to why I am getting such low Gamma from 0 to 50 IRE? What should I do to correct this?

I am using the B&W KR6 81EF MRC filter from BH Photo.

Originally posted by llamameat
Steve,
I would think that setting brightness is trickier for our display device because there's a whole spetrum of blacks that the device does not display.

Er ,,, can you explain?
0 IRE to 100 IRE is 0 IRE to 100 IRE
16 to 235 from Vid sources
0 to 255 from PC
Either can be calibrated to the other range.

So what blacks are our devices "unable to display"?

ted

Originally posted by SteveCoug
JimP,

Are you saying I should make the settings DARKER than what Avia recommends.

Before I got my filter, I set up the contrast and brightness on my PJ using Avia based on the instructions on the DVD.

I have not had time to do the brightness/contrast adjust yet with the filter.


Steve,
Not darker, but lighter.

Adjust brightness until the second bar disappears, then lighten it until it reappears. That should be right.

On my setup using "normal mode" and bulb having around a hundred hours on it, I come up with a brightness setting of "0", using the Accupel HD signal generator. I remember when I first got the AE700, brightness had to be set somewhere below "0". Guess the bulb dims a little from brand new.

Has anyone done any testing with the filter when lamp is in low mode. The projector would only be about 4 ft above the couch in our setup, so I think I will have to run in low lamp mode to keep the fan noise to a minimum. So I'm just wondering if there are still improvements to using a filter with the lamp in low mode.

John

I am so confuse, please help!
First, I want to thank all you guys for posting your settings.
I just received the BW filter today.
There are many settings people posted here (which is good), but I just don't know which one to go with. Right now I have dm's setting, it look almost identical to cinema 1 mode. But since I don’t have anything to measure with (and b/c I don’t know how), is that the best setting to gain CR? What about the brightness (lumen output)? And what is the CR and Lumen output measurement with dm’s setting or with anyone's setting?


Here is some settings with filters that are post recently, can someone with some kind of measuring equipments test the CR, light output and color measurement with the following settings.

AVS Member: dm
VIDEO Mode Color Settings--
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Temp colour: -1
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0



AVS Member: Gn0m4
.- Mode: Video
.- Lamp: High
.- Contrast: 4
.- Brightness: 0
.- Colour: -2
.- Temp colour: 0
.- Iris: on
.- Gamma High: 0
.- Gamma Mid: 0
.- Gamma Low: 0
.- Contrast R: -2
.- Contrast G: -2
.- Contrast B: 0
.- Bright R: 0
.- Bright G: 0
.- Bright B: 0



AVS Member: Bradbissell
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1



AVS Member: SteveCoug
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Colour: -1
Temp colour: 0
Iris: on
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: -2
Contrast G: -2
Contrast B: 0
Bright R: 0
Bright G: 0
Bright B: 0


AVS Member: scheulend
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
My Avia results are
Contrast +6
Brightness -3
Color -8
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Iris ON


AVS Member: fazz
.- Mode: Normal
.- Lamp: Low
.- Contrast: -6
.- Brightness: +4
.- Temp colour: 0
.- Iris: on
.- Gamma High: 0
.- Gamma Mid: -1
.- Gamma Low: +1
.- Contrast R: -2
.- Contrast G: -1
.- Contrast B: 0
.- Bright R: -4
.- Bright G: -3
.- Bright B: -1

No one is going to be able to tell you exactly which setting to use. All of the settings you listed are starting points. You pick one and then tweak in your own setup the adjustments that work for you.

At the very least, get a copy of AVIA or Digital Video Essentials setup calibration DVD's to help evaluate your settings. Better yet get SMARTIII to measure your setup. I don't have SMARTIII so I cannot tell you exactly what my settings measure as. If you will see a few posts back, I did measure my setup with a DIY calibration system based on a photocell from radioshack. I measured a 30% increase in CR using a filter with my "dm" settings over the standard CINEMA1 no filter setup.

Could somebody sum up the B+W/Heilopan filter.... which one is better (why), etc.

Also recommended HTPC settings for the filter and AE700.... I run TheaterTek 2.01 right now and FFDshow (I know gnome runs avisynth too... if i need to install this I will just need to know what I need). We need some kind of a "holy grail" thread for the AE-700.

Well jagouar, you've got the long version of the "holy grail" in this 60- page thread on tweaking the AE700.

You got the summaries of ALL the detailed settings that people have posted in this thread in ANOTHER newer, shorter AE700 thread (which saved you plowing through thousands of posts from this tweak thread to get that info) that asked for a "holy grail".

I'm not sure how much more hand-holding you can expect.

Unless someone has your exact equipment, set up exactly in the same lighting conditions as yours, at the same distance with the same size screen and the same screen material, who can post their settings - I think you should be trying some of these settings to see which gives you the best PQ - not look for a post that says "THESE are the settings you MUST use".

I know but the other thread didnt go through which filter is better (http://www.adorama.com/ seems to be the cheapest to get stuff from), HTPC settings.... they will be very similar regarldess of equipment (sharpness stuff).

Unless i missed something in this 60 page thread almost no talk has been done on the HTPC settings side..... and no definite comparison between the filters... but i admit ive only skimmed this thread. In 60 pages there is alot to miss.

The point is you run your HTPC as per normal and then adjust with the filter and the projectors settings.

I understand that but (Im speaking from my AE100 days here) but there was a nice complete guide written up by somebody here about all the tweaks (no 60 pages worth of posts to sift through). That covered everything from filters to settings to HTPC settings.

Yes you can (and are supposed to adjust) your own settings but computer settings are the one thing that doesnt matter much on your room conditions so its a matter of finding somebody with your particular hardware and matching it will yeild the best PQ. theres also a million settings in FFDShow that can be used and knowing what works better than others would take many many hours..... I know people here have come pretty close to getting the perfect image on the AE700 and those settings wouldnt change much from computer to computer.

I was going to writeup a post on my system once I get it to the best possible picture but I have to get there first. (I just got my PJ monday so I havent had much time to research tweaks for the AE700)

BajaFishin et al,

As per my initial review, using my settings I have a Contrast Ratio of 2273:1 and a smooth white level of 6500K.

From the looks of all other reported settings only my settings are maxing out the panel gains. Thus the extremely high contrast level.

Good luck to all you tweakers. It is well worth the effort for the dramatic increase in CR.

I'm looking forward to the next revision of SmartIII. Steve, if you need help testing the software let me know.

Filter Heliopan:


Without Filter

http://personales.ya.com/Gn0m4/Mundodvd/Screenshot-172.jpg


With Filter

http://img180.exs.cx/img180/5850/dsc002654fy.jpg



Without Filter

http://personales.ya.com/Gn0m4/original/Screenshot-52.jpg


With Filter

http://img180.exs.cx/img180/8673/dsc002047td.jpg



Regards.

Originally posted by bradbissell
BajaFishin et al,

As per my initial review, using my settings I have a Contrast Ratio of 2273:1 and a smooth white level of 6500K.

From the looks of all other reported settings only my settings are maxing out the panel gains. Thus the extremely high contrast level.

I believe this is because your RED and GREEN primaries are being *increased* to max out those amps - regaining brightness lost due to filtering while the black levels have been lowered because of the filtering. This is the correct approach per reading and the futzing around I have done with red filters at home. Logically it makes sense. Most settings that I've seen documented here have in fact lowered the Green and Blue. This is self defeating as the filter has already lowered those channels. To lower them further is self deafeating in that it lowers the ratio between White and Black levels, hence CR.

ted

The problem with Brad's settings on my setup is that it is too green. Not 6500K. I have the MRC version of the B+W. I am guessing that Brad has the regular version of the filter. The MRC version has a filter factor of 1.4. I believe that the regular version is 1.5.

I do believe that with the B+W MRC version of the filter there are better settings out there to maximize the panels better then the ones I am using currently. That is why I built the DIY SMART so that I could try and determine those setings. Or maybe I will just byte the bullet and purchase the SMART III optimized for the AE700 when it comes out.

Originally posted by bradbissell
BajaFishin et al,
As per my initial review, using my settings I have a Contrast Ratio of 2273:1 and a smooth white level of 6500K.

From the looks of all other reported settings only my settings are maxing out the panel gains. Thus the extremely high contrast level.


Brad (or anyone else),

Did you get a chance to measure luminance with vs. without filter? How about luminance of low vs. high lamp power? I have the non-MRC B+W 81ef filter and the luminance drop is very noticeable. I am wondering how much drop in luminance the filter causes.

BTW, I am using your settings but backed off the Contrast-G setting to +4 because your +5 setting seems a little green.

Thanks again for your great detective work.

beocop

Gn0m4
hey man those pics are very nice, what filter is he using? sorry Im new on this thread so I just started looking at the ae700. Did they fix the vb with the new firmware? How does it compare with the hs51's blacks (ae700 with filter?) thanks jeff (potential ae700 buyer)

Originally posted by dm
The problem with Brad's settings on my setup is that it is too green. Not 6500K. I have the MRC version of the B+W. I am guessing that Brad has the regular version of the filter. The MRC version has a filter factor of 1.4. I believe that the regular version is 1.5.

I do believe that with the B+W MRC version of the filter there are better settings out there to maximize the panels better then the ones I am using currently. That is why I built the DIY SMART so that I could try and determine those setings. Or maybe I will just byte the bullet and purchase the SMART III optimized for the AE700 when it comes out.

Certainly not slighting your efforts dm - they are most impressive. :cool: (Always wanted to use that smily)

Have you tried determinie where your individual gains tap out and then backing off? There may yet be gain for the RED channel that you are overlooking.

ted

Originally posted by jeffropaige
Gn0m4
hey man those pics are very nice, what filter is he using? sorry Im new on this thread so I just started looking at the ae700. Did they fix the vb with the new firmware? How does it compare with the hs51's blacks (ae700 with filter?) thanks jeff (potential ae700 buyer)

Hes using a Heliopan flter (most others here are using a B+K filter).. Im sill trying to depermine if one is better than the other (Heliopan seems to be slightly cheaper)

where are you finding the heliopan cheaper at? i haven't ordered mine yet (waiting for payday) but if you can finder the heliopan cheaper i'd like to know where you're seeing it. i made some calls and everywhere i found it it was like $90 and special order.

I saw a place with one (looked the same to me but i didnt look that closely) but it was $67.... it wasnt bhphoto but another place... was going to post the link tonight to see if its the same one (dont have the link at work).

so gnom it's this one right?

it is cheaper, but special order...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=21866&is=REG

bandh has a ton of heliopan filters what is the exact one hes using? jeff

im pretty sure thats the one i found at the other site for 67, ready to ship. (or maybe it waws 56)

I bought it here (http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3872123622) (Team Foto).
I must try to add a FL-D filter to my config :p

Originally posted by beocop
Brad (or anyone else),

Did you get a chance to measure luminance with vs. without filter? How about luminance of low vs. high lamp power? I have the non-MRC B+W 81ef filter and the luminance drop is very noticeable. I am wondering how much drop in luminance the filter causes.

BTW, I am using your settings but backed off the Contrast-G setting to +4 because your +5 setting seems a little green.

Thanks again for your great detective work.

beocop


See man, I’m not the only one interested in this numbers.
With the filter, I concur, using dm's setting, it did makes a big different in deeper black and much more brighter than in nature (w/ color temp -1) and cinema 1 mode. I will try Brad's and others settings tonight.

I also want to THANK Brad for his announcement to reach over 2200:1 in CR, YEAH, it put this projector into another category!!! YES!!!

Baja

BajaFishin,

Should I get the B+W 81ef non MRC filter or the B+W 81ef MRC filter?

Again I'm no expert on most of the stuff being discussed in this thread, but I'm wondering what others think of the pics that gn0m4 just posted. To my eye the ones without the filter have more pop to the color, and in the picture of the car the details of the cracks down the right side of the racetrack on gone in the picture with the filter, but easily visible in the one without.

Most people are saying the picture is brighter with the filter, but these filter pics look darker to me. So do those in the know think that these pics with the filter are a lot better than the ones without? Maybe you can tell me what to look for to see the "improvement", as to my untrained eye I think I like the non filter pics better. Thanks.

John

http://www.adorama.com/HP7781EF.html

this is the one i was talking about....

Originally posted by tvted
Certainly not slighting your efforts dm - they are most impressive. :cool: (Always wanted to use that smily)

Have you tried determinie where your individual gains tap out and then backing off? There may yet be gain for the RED channel that you are overlooking.

ted

The max gain panel check is one of the reasons I built my DIY SMART setup. Also I want to check the IRE0 setting and up the brightness until it starts to show up in the measurements. To see where the "safe" max setting is on the low end is as well to keep the blacks black.

Have not had time to do the tests yet.

Originally posted by jcg
Again I'm no expert on most of the stuff being discussed in this thread, but I'm wondering what others think of the pics that gn0m4 just posted. To my eye the ones without the filter have more pop to the color, and in the picture of the car the details of the cracks down the right side of the racetrack on gone in the picture with the filter, but easily visible in the one without.

Most people are saying the picture is brighter with the filter, but these filter pics look darker to me. So do those in the know think that these pics with the filter are a lot better than the ones without? Maybe you can tell me what to look for to see the "improvement", as to my untrained eye I think I like the non filter pics better. Thanks.

John

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that yes the blacks are blacker. However that seems to me because there is an overall dimming to the picture and a crushing of black detail - there is little if any CR gain. These filters will *not* in and of themselves improve CR without the corresponding increase in the primary gains relative to the black level. Sorry dm I know I sound like a one line actor but anyone who has presented settings wherein they have decreased the Green and Red primaries have not posted any CR measurements.

Screenshots that contain a high APL will *not* indicate whether there has truly been a CR gain, It is in the low APL scenes where the increased overhead of a higher On/Off will allow for greater detailing and shading.
I too prefer the original shots.

My one cent.

ted

Originally posted by dm
The max gain panel check is one of the reasons I built my DIY SMART setup. Also I want to check the IRE0 setting and up the brightness until it starts to show up in the measurements. To see where the "safe" max setting is on the low end is as well to keep the blacks black.

Have not had time to do the tests yet.

As far as I know there would be no "safe" at the lower end that you could not check with AVIA or DVE brightness calibration. I'm not sure you can turn an LCD off like you can a CRT tube.
I would think it would be internally biased and the user adjustment simply adds to that. I have no difficulty with being corrected though.

You are a diligent man with your meter - I have the toys or access to them to DIY but have decided to go the SMART route when the time is right as I'm too lazy and scrambled to put it all together. Then again maybe I can just leech off the efforts of others. ;)
I admire your perseverance.

Just a note - I plan to explore the CC20R and CC30R because they should lower the blacks more than the filters mentioned in this thread and I believe there is enough gain in the primaries (from futzing) to offset the light loss. My way of wasting time when the time is right.

ted

After reading all of the excellent posts, I think I understand the purpose of the filter. Get maximum contrast while keeping the colors at 6500K. However, doesn't the screen that is used have an effect on the contrast? What affect does the ability to control room lighting have as well--if any. I am using a Da-Lite HCCV 110" screen with the projector ceiling mounted from about 14' away. My media room has no windows and can be made completely dark.

Thanks.

Originally posted by jagouar
http://www.adorama.com/HP7781EF.html

this is the one i was talking about....

This is the one to get:

http ://www. bhphotovideo.com /bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG


B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion (MRC) Multi-Resistant Coating Glass Filter

Mfr# 65045090 • B&H# BWKR6MC77

Originally posted by tvted
Sorry dm I know I sound like a one line actor but anyone who has presented settings wherein they have decreased the Green and Red primaries have not posted any CR measurements.

ted

tvted, you are prefacing your comments with sorry and such. Don't be timid, don't hold back, I have a thick skin and enjoy reading your constructive posts. I am learning as I go and your checks and balance to my statements are well received here. Besides, I have friends in Toronto. If you say anything too offensive, I will have them pay you a visit.:D (now I get to use a smilie)

With that out of the way, if you look at my DIY SMART measurements posted in a above post, you will see that after the filter the IRE 0 measurements have dropped. Indicating to me at least that the filter IS making my black's blacker. So I may not be realizing all of the CR improvement as you stated, but I am getting some low end darkening that is measurable and noticeable.

Originally posted by satfam
After reading all of the excellent posts, I think I understand the purpose of the filter. Get maximum contrast while keeping the colors at 6500K. However, doesn't the screen that is used have an effect on the contrast? What affect does the ability to control room lighting have as well--if any. I am using a Da-Lite HCCV 110" screen with the projector ceiling mounted from about 14' away. My media room has no windows and can be made completely dark.

Thanks.

People such as bradbissell with his SMART III, myself with my DIY SMART rig and others are directly measuring the light output of the PJ. The screen and room conditions are not a factor since we are not measuring the light reflected off the screen.

However, the screen shots, and eyewitness reports DO look at the screen and room conditions DO play a role there.

Originally posted by BajaFishin
This is the one to get:

http ://www. bhphotovideo.com /bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG


B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion (MRC) Multi-Resistant Coating Glass Filter

Mfr# 65045090 • B&H# BWKR6MC77

I know thats the one people say to get.... but Gn0m4 uses the heliopan and his pictures are the best (granted their screenshots but still).... I am specifically wondering if the heliopan is better or about the same performance for less $ (hence me linking that filter)

I would specifically suggest you buy both, try them, and then tell us which is better, jagouar. I'm sure you can return the one that gives you a lesser PQ.

Since you've asked the same question now, or variants of it 4 or 5 times at least, and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer, you MAY have to do that legwork yourself, to get the definitive answer you keep seeking.

Just so everyone knows I am using the component input with a dvd player and DM is using the VGA input with a HTPC. This is probably why using my settings are too green for him.

After lengthy PMs, we have determined that we both have the same filter (B+W KR6 81EF 1.4x), his has the MRC and mine does not, but this is a neutral coating and will not change the light passing through the filter, only the amount of reflections.

So for everyone using component I would suggest trying my settings, for anyone using VGA try DMs.

Originally posted by tvted


Just a note - I plan to explore the CC20R and CC30R because they should lower the blacks more than the filters mentioned in this thread and I believe there is enough gain in the primaries (from futzing) to offset the light loss. My way of wasting time when the time is right.

ted

I have tried a CC30R and CC40R. Neither had the contrast levels the 81EF produces. However, on the plus side the black level was lower.

Originally posted by AVWH
I would specifically suggest you buy both, try them, and then tell us which is better, jagouar. I'm sure you can return the one that gives you a lesser PQ.

Since you've asked the same question now, or variants of it 4 or 5 times at least, and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer, you MAY have to do that legwork yourself, to get the definitive answer you keep seeking.

I know.... I probably will have to choose (even with the shipping back I really dont want to mess with that right now (was hoping somebody would have gotten both by now and have a definite answer).

I just got off the phone with B&H photo regarding the B+W filter. They are sold out of the MRC version but have the non multicoated version in stock.

I spoke with a very knowledgeable sales person and he told me that for
projector use it is not necessary to use the multicoated version. The regular version costs about half the price. It seems that he had nothing to
gain by recommending the less expensive version since the multicoated version is on order and would be in stock soon. B&H also has a 14 day return policy so I ordered one to try. Does anyone have any thoughts on the merits of using a MRC version vs the non MRC version. The color should
be the same according to B&H.

MRC will increase the thoughput of the lens. Might be a 5% increase in light output. I seem to remember from optics that glass reflects about 2.5% of light that strikes the surface. So with 2 surfaces, this should equate to a 5% loss in light. This all depends on the quality of the glass. In anycase it would be a small amount of light loss, but the MRC might help reduce ghosting.

I've been reading the posts on using filters and thought I would mention that they do bleach out after a relatively short time. I've been using a resin CC30r filter to correct the video mode and it bleached out after 200 hours or so. There is a nice light rectangle clearly visible on the filter. This was much faster than I expected, but I offset the filter in the Cokin holder, so only a small area on the side was used, I can do this four more times before the whole filter is bleached out.

Steve Smallcombe has just posted his review of the AE700, and he was able to dial the color in without using a filter in the normal mode. The review is at Secrets of Home Theater, sorry I can't post the URL, since I have an insufficient number of posts.

Secrets of Home Theater AE700 review

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/panasonic-pt-ae700u-projector-2-2005-part-2.html

I'm now on the bandwagon - I just ordered the single coated B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF

I also have some comparison pictures of my light salmon / aussie bob set up that I will post this weekend.

I have been trying to get more information regarding the benfits of MRC vs
coated filters. From what I can see there will be little advantage in using MRC filters for projectors since the light is only coming from one direction and the loss should be very small in comparision to MRC filters.

According to the specs from B+W all their filters are multicoated the MRC filters have an extra special coating.

"To reduce unwanted reflection and lens flare, which can seriously degrade the image contrast and resolution, we give our filters a coating on both sides. This guarantees that the high MTF performance of your lens is maintained exactly as the lens manufacturer intended it. You can also request filters with the new Multi Resistant Coating (MRC) developed by B+W which provides greater durability than the prior multi-coating process."



The most important thing it seems is to use a good brand such as B+W or Heliopan. Does anyone have a different view to support the use of a MRC filter for projection?

The only concern I would have is that most filters are used in camera setups where light is coming INTO the camera. So the coatings are optimized for light in that direction.

For us, we are concerned about light going OUTWARD thru the lens. The cheaper filters may not coat both sides equally for bidirectional use.

That is true that is the reason why a good filter from B+W or Heliopan should do the job since they are coated on both sides and are made from optical glass in Germany. The MRC filter adds an extra coating.

Will these filter tweaks work with the ae500 as well?
Brian

Originally posted by rwestley
That is true that is the reason why a good filter from B+W or Heliopan should do the job since they are coated on both sides and are made from optical glass in Germany. The MRC filter adds an extra coating.

So essentially no need for MRC.... now if I could just get the heliopan vs B/W figured out ;)

I installed the filter today and used the Video mode. I would say that the improvement is enough to immunize me from upgradatis. The black level now matches my 34" Sony tube!

So MRC adds "durability." Is that to resist scratching (no big deal) or fading (bigger deal)?

That was a joke.

Originally posted by RobZ
...enough to immunize me from upgradatis.

Sorry. Extensive studies have shown that there is no immunization, there is no cure. :p






...oh wait... there is marriage...

Originally posted by rkihara
I've been reading the posts on using filters and thought I would mention that they do bleach out after a relatively short time. I've been using a resin CC30r filter to correct the video mode and it bleached out after 200 hours or so. There is a nice light rectangle clearly visible on the filter. This was much faster than I expected, but I offset the filter in the Cokin holder, so only a small area on the side was used, I can do this four more times before the whole filter is bleached out.

Steve Smallcombe has just posted his review of the AE700, and he was able to dial the color in without using a filter in the normal mode. The review is at Secrets of Home Theater, sorry I can't post the URL, since I have an insufficient number of posts.



Anyone able to summarize the settings that Steve used?
I had a hard time figuring out just what settings he was suggesting in the article.

Oh ya this is my first post --- I have enjoyed the thread and look forward to participating in it!

I just found this paper on MRC coatings from the company that makes B+W
filters. It seems that they provide greater scratch protection someting that is not needed for projectors. If this is true we should be able to stick with
the standard good quality coated filters and save some money.

http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/ads_&_brochures/pdf/mrc_e.pdf

Anyone able to summarize the settings that Steve used?


I would like to know this too.

I am using bradbissell's original settings posted earlier on this thread. I am also using DVD on component input with the B&W MRC filter, so we have the same basic setup. My DVD player is a Zenith 318.

I did the brightness/contrast adjustment using my Avia DVD and I came up with Contrast +6 and Brightness -9.

Then I watched a movie and I noticed that in some scenes that white level was a little too hot and the dark scenes were a tad too dark, so I will probably tweak my settings to about Contrast +4 an Brightness -7, which I believe are the exact same settings as Brad uses on his PJ.

So if you have the B&W MRC filter and you are watching DVD's via component input, I suggest you start with Brad's settings. They seem to work perfect for me. I'm not a true "video geek" I don't spend nearly as much time tweaking as a lot of guys on this thread, but the difference in picture quality is pretty dramatic. Wathcing the movie last night, the picture seemed almost 3-D at times thanks to the improved contrast ratio and deeper blacks from using the filter.

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but the "official" AE700 thread seems to have dropped way back, and I guess this is a tweak question....

I received my AE700 from Jason the other day (Thanks Jason!) and should be able to mount it this weekend. I played with it a bit the other morning, and realized the the lens shift mechanism is purely a mechanical x/y axis kind of thing.... move the joystick, the lens assembly moves correspondingly....

My question is: does this tilting shift movement create keystoning? It seems like it would do the same thing as just tilting the PJ on the mount???? I hope I am wrong here.

Thanks for any insight!

try and minimize your optical shifting. It does not cause keystoning, but if you optical shift to a maximum direction, it makes it hard to evenly focus the image accross the entire screen. (ie. focused in the middle, slightly out of focus in the corners.).

I found that rather than using the optical shift in the y direction to the max, i tilted my PJ down slightly. This centered the image on the screen, but caused a small amount of keystoning, but allowed me reduce the optical shift I was using. The overall sharpness of the focus was better this way.

I was surprised when I ceiling mounted my PJ. It seems that panasonic has designed the AE700 so that with the optical shift in the center/neutral position, a straight line from the lens to the screen shows up in the center of the screen. My prior panasonic (711xu) PJ, had the center of the lens shooting somewhere near the top 1/3 of the screen. To make a long story short, you NEED to use abit of the y axis lens shift in most setups. It is just best not to use the max amount of lens shift.

Originally posted by hdaynard
Anyone able to summarize the settings that Steve used?
I had a hard time figuring out just what settings he was suggesting in the article.

Oh ya this is my first post --- I have enjoyed the thread and look forward to participating in it!


For those of you want to know what the settings from Steve Smallcombe (without the filter) may read about it right here:

http :// www .hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/panasonic-pt-ae700u-projector-2-2005-part-1.html


Here is the quote from the article:

"Upon exploring the Normal mode further, I found that the color could be corrected by lowering the Color control to –9, and adjusting the Tint to +2. Brightness went to +8 and Contrast to –4.


In the Normal mode, grayscale tracking remained excellent, as can be seen in the graph above, but now the contrast ratio, climbed to 560:1 with the Dynamic Iris off, and the black level fell a factor of 3 when the iris control was activated, suggesting a Dynamic Contrast ratio of 1665:1. In the Normal picture mode, the light level at the screen was 22.8 ftL (IRE 100 full field) suggesting a light output from the projector of 720 ANSI lumens in the low lamp mode."

btw I tried Brad's setting here:

AVS Member: Bradbissell
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

It really boost the contrast, at lease to my eyes.

Baja

hmmmmm....

mine doesn't look like that

I have been following this forum for quite a while now and I know several people were going to get the firmware update to their pj's, but I haven't read anything from anyone who has done so, as to what the improvements may be. My main concern is VB and want to know if this issue is addressed at all? Thanks to all, B:)

Originally posted by barnie
I have been following this forum for quite a while now and I know several people were going to get the firmware update to their pj's, but I haven't read anything from anyone who has done so, as to what the improvements may be. My main concern is VB and want to know if this issue is addressed at all? Thanks to all, B:)

I have a trip to take next week, but when I get back I'll be sending mine in. One user in this forum did report that the firmware update did eliminate VB, with it only very, very slightly showing up if he left it on standby. It should also get rid of white flashes over hdmi. Those are the major ones. I'd like to hear opinions of other people who have gotten the update as well.

This is my first screenshot upload. I'm comparing cinema1 mode with the lee light salmon free sample and aussiebob's settings.

I'm shooting with a crappy canon powershot s230 that I have not bothered to learn to use well. I'm using component output from my terrible $40 USD refurbished samsung dvd player. The screen is behr silverscreen.

cinema1 mode, lamp high, all settings default

http://www.swervedriver.com/images/ourmanindy_cinema1.jpg

aussiebob lee light salmon settings (cropped too much by accident)

http://www.swervedriver.com/images/ourmanindy_aussiebob.jpg

cinema1 mode, lamp high, all settings default

http://www.swervedriver.com/images/junior_cinema1.jpg

aussiebob lee light salmon settings

http://www.swervedriver.com/images/junior_aussiebob.jpg

aussiebob settings are:

Lamp = high
PICTURE MENU
PICTURE MODE: DYNAMIC
CONTRAST: +4
BRIGHT: 0
COLOR: -4
TINT: 0
SHARP: -4
COLOR TEMP: 0
DYNAMIC IRIS: ON


ADVANCE MENU
GAMMA HIGH: 0
GAMMA MID: +3
GAMMA LOW: +3

CONTRAST R: -10
CONTRAST G: 0
CONTRAST B: 0

BRIGHT R: -5
BRIGHT G: 0
BRIGHT B: 0


I have not calibrated with avia or dve.

The contrast bump is definitely there but I'm not sure the colours are right. The skin tones are too saturated and the highlights can be harsh in the light salmon setup. I think that I could get my colours more correct with some visual tweaking.

bradsears, what screen are you using?

He said "The screen is behr silverscreen. "

It's a paint that you can buy from Home Depot.

brad...you need to use a disc to calibrate your projector.

You are losing a lot of detail in both of those pictures settings. I dont know if its just your camera because it looks way off. Use THX calibrator from a DVD such as Finding Nemo to set contrast etc...

I agree. The camera is not great, the dvd player is junk, and this picture is 30% of a larger picture. I'll consider taking some better ones but my goal here is to show the contrast increase using light salmon.

I also tried to select very dark scenes to show the contrast. The image looks much better in person as you must expect.

While we are deconstructing my setup; what is that red dot on all my pics? I'm 100% sure I don't see it live. I'll have to check my camera.

bradsears,

The red dot is either a bad pixel in the projector or in the camera.

Hey everyone...

I setup my AE700 yesterday, connected to a Panny S97 (latest firmware) via HDMI. I bought DVE as well, but haven't got to that yet.

We watched Harry Potter (kid friendly) and the picture was heavy on the reds and the greens were kinda flourescent (quidich?? field). A few minutes of Monsters, INc, and Nemo also seemed very "flourescent". I think I was using Dynamic mode.

My question is do I leave the DVD player alone and focus on getting the settings correct on the PJ? Also, what color mode (i guess is what it is called) on the DVD do I want RGB, YCbCr (4:2:2) or YCbCr (4:4:4) ((I think those where my choices) and do I have to set anything corresponding on the PJ?

It is overwhelming on where to begin to calibrate everything and what equipment to leave alone...

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thank,
Scott

yes dynamic will be very heavy on the colors.... go cinema 1/2 or natural or normal.

I spent some time yesterday, using Flight Of The Phoenix, testing out my new B&W filter. I'd have to say that the difference is pretty amazing considering the minimal cost. Black level of the 700 has been my major gripe until now. It is obviously not inky black like a CRT. However, the contrast is very good. Without the filter I would give the 700 an 80 out of 100. With the filter, I'd give it a 90-95 for an affordable projector. I would like to have 100% VB elimination and fewer color variations with bright white images. However, the filter adds a lot of PQ to the 700. I tried both Video and Normal modes. Both are better than the rest. However, I liked the Normal a bit more. I have a 110" 1.0 gain Carada screen, Denon 2900, and a dedicated 100% darkened room. I thought that the Video mode, and low lamp setting, with contrast reduced to around -8 still produced a bit too much brightness for my system. The screen door became minimally apparent and the VB was a bit present. In Normal mode, low lamp, and -3 contrast, the image was more filmlike, SD and VB were not visible. Obviously each system has it's own environment and each individual has their own subjective preferences. This was just what was preferred on my system. Hopefully the filters have a long life span. Otherwise, I'm going to suggest BHPhoto sell a value pack with a half dozen filters :)

RobZ did you use the regular or MRC B+W filter? Could you please post
your new settings with the filter.

Regarding the life of the filter. B+W makes the best filters and you should have no problem. It should have a long life span. If you have a problem
B+W will give you a new one.

On a related note IVe heard if you get the filter you want to put it into "high" mode to get similar brightness as normal non filtered.

I have the MRC version. I will check my settings today. I compared high lamp and low and could not see a significant difference to be honest. Also, my projector is ceiling mounted ( = loud fan noise compared with desktop). In Video or Normal mode (with filter) with contrast reduced, the image is still brighter than non filtered Cinema 1,2,3 or Natural. There are a couple of variables of course. I have a Denon 2900 and a Zenith DVB318. The Denon does not have the green PQ that the zenith does. This may change the settings and effect of the filter. Also, my room is very dark and the screen is masked with black velvet. Perceived contrast may be a bit better. For these reasons, if the image is too bright, it is not as "film like". I will post some pics later.

Is the bulb in the AE700 a UHP??

Just read a post about how the Sony Black Screen is optimized for the UHP bulb.

I believe the Sony Black Screen technology is going to be solely carried by Stewart initially. If that is true, the screen will likely be pretty pricey. I would have a hard time purchasing a screen that is more expensive than the projector. Awesome technology though. Looks like it will eventually change the front projector scene.

I believe you are the first person to test out low lamp mode as I think everyone who has posted configs is running in high lamp. I've asked about low lamp prior to this on this thread but never really got any replies. Due to fan noise I need to be in low lamp mode, so I'd really be interested in your pics to see if the filitered image is indeed brighter than the non filtered one.

John

Originally posted by RobZ
I have the MRC version. I will check my settings today. I compared high lamp and low and could not see a significant difference to be honest. Also, my projector is ceiling mounted ( = loud fan noise compared with desktop). In Video or Normal mode (with filter) with contrast reduced, the image is still brighter than non filtered Cinema 1,2,3 or Natural. There are a couple of variables of course. I have a Denon 2900 and a Zenith DVB318. The Denon does not have the green PQ that the zenith does. This may change the settings and effect of the filter. Also, my room is very dark and the screen is masked with black velvet. Perceived contrast may be a bit better. For these reasons, if the image is too bright, it is not as "film like". I will post some pics later.

Are there any other sources for the B+W filter besides BH Photo? They are out. Thanks.

John, the filtered Video and Normal modes are definitely brighter than unfiltered cinema 1,2,3 and natural (in low lamp mode). I'll try shooting some pics later. I can tell you this much. The filter really is a great addition.

Ok Ive decided to go the cheapo B/W filter.... is this the one to get? Want to make sure before I order....

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11106&is=REG

Jagouar, That is the same filter I ordered. According to a sales person at B&H the only difference is that the MRC filter has an extra coating and is easier to clean and harder to scratch. He said that the color is the same and that the MRC version should not be necessary for projection.

Look on page 57 of this thread and you can see I made some comments on gn0m4's pics as his filtered ones aren't as bright. I prefered the non filtered pics and someone else posted the same, so that's why I'm trying to confirm that your config is actually brighter. He was using high lamp in his config, but I still think something isn't setup right.

John

Originally posted by RobZ
John, the filtered Video and Normal modes are definitely brighter than unfiltered cinema 1,2,3 and natural (in low lamp mode). I'll try shooting some pics later. I can tell you this much. The filter really is a great addition.

Originally posted by jcg
Look on page 57 of this thread and you can see I made some comments on gn0m4's pics as his filtered ones aren't as bright. I prefered the non filtered pics and someone else posted the same, so that's why I'm trying to confirm that your config is actually brighter. He was using high lamp in his config, but I still think something isn't setup right.

John

It should be expected that a filtered PJ would not be as bright. According to cine4home's article the AE seemed to be unusual in this respect.

I believe it might have been me that concurred with your assessment of the posted pics and suggested what I felt was wrong in the settings.

As you all know the purpose of filtering is to increase CR by lowering blacks and regaining a balance between the primary amps with a UHP bulb PJ. This would *not * be as apparent in a high APL scene where blacks appear darker because of their relationship with the white in the picture. Where this would be apparent is n low APL scenes showing better black detail. This is because with increased On/Off CR there is more "headroom" at lower IRE's.
Brad's posting (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5286991#post5286991) is more telling in this regard.

ted

Originally posted by bradsears


The contrast bump is definitely there but I'm not sure the colours are right. The skin tones are too saturated and the highlights can be harsh in the light salmon setup. I think that I could get my colours more correct with some visual tweaking.

Brad you might consider that the "harshness" you speak of may be due to gamma setting. To me the DYNAMIC mode (by eye) does not have a linear gamma throughout and the SHARPNESS setting is much to high - intolerably so to me.

ted

Here is a pic of a familiar image in Normal mode, with filter, on low lamp mode.

http://img125.exs.cx/img125/4794/normalmodelowlamp4nw.jpg



This is Normal Mode, with filter, high lamp mode


http://img125.exs.cx/img125/5803/normalmodehighlamp7cd.jpg

Originally posted by satfam
Are there any other sources for the B+W filter besides BH Photo? They are out. Thanks.

As was posted earlier, any full-service photo supply store should have the B&W filter - I found mine w/ two phone calls locally.

It'll be ~$15-20 more than online, but: 1) you'll have right away, and 2)returning it is probably easier if there's a problem or you're not satisfied.

Well I just placed an order for the cheaper (non MC) B/W Filter.... are these still the recommended settings? (from the quick setup thread)

w/ filter (B&W KR6 81EF):

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

or are there others (maybe from somebody who bought the cheaper one, if theres anything different)

Here are other images with filter, Normal, and low lamp mode. Hopefully this gives a general idea as to the contrast in low lamp mode with the filter. The images are on a 110" Carada 1.0 gain




http://img221.exs.cx/img221/1605/spiderman6qi.jpg


http://img221.exs.cx/img221/7513/spidermanb4cw.jpg

Originally posted by barnie
I have been following this forum for quite a while now and I know several people were going to get the firmware update to their pj's, but I haven't read anything from anyone who has done so, as to what the improvements may be. My main concern is VB and want to know if this issue is addressed at all? Thanks to all, B:)

Don't plan on any firmware update eliminating VB on the 700. Believe me - if I thought it would - I'd mail mine in for the upgrade in a nano second.

jagouar-

Yes, those are the current recommended settings for the Component input. Remember to set brightness, contrast, sharpness, tint and hue with AVIA/DVE for these settings to be correct with your specific projector.

Originally posted by tvted
Brad you might consider that the "harshness" you speak of may be due to gamma setting. To me the DYNAMIC mode (by eye) does not have a linear gamma throughout and the SHARPNESS setting is much to high - intolerably so to me.

ted

I'm with you on that. My B+W filter should be here soon and I'll try out the video mode settings.

Anybody know if the lense cap can still go on with teh filter screwed in? I live in a pet hair prison.

Originally posted by bradsears
My B+W filter should be here soon...

Anybody know if the lense cap can still go on with the filter screwed in? I live in a pet hair prison.

Just tried it - works on mine (though I leave the cap off, normally - I find it messes with my focus).

For those still looking for the B+W 77mm KR-6 (81EF) filter, here's another couple of sources besides B&H Photo.

http://www.pictureline.com/product.php?id=121

http://www.adorama.com/BW7781EF.html

Adorama does not have the filter in Stock and pictureline is offering the non
MRC one at a much higher price than B&H photo. The settings for the MRC and regular B+W filter should be the same. The only difference in the MRC version is the extra coating that provides more scratch resistance and it
is easier to clean. I posted the specs on both in an earlier post.

RobZ could you poost your settings for low lamp mode.

Nice pictures.

My DVD player is a Denon 2900. The color of the Zenith DVB318, for example, would not look good with these settings.

NORMAL
Low Lamp
Contrast -3
Bright -2
Color -5
Tint 0
Sharpness -4
Color Temp 0
Dynamic Iris On

Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid 0
Gamma Low 0

Contrast Red -9
Contrast Green -7
Contrast Blue 0
Bright Red -7
Bright Green -3
Bright Blue -6



VIDEO
Low Lamp
Contrast -8
Bright -8
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharpness -4
Color Temp 0
Dynamic Iris On

Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid 0
Gamma Low 0

Contrast Red 0
Contrast Green 0
Contrast Blue 0
Bright Red -2
Bright Green -2
Bright Blue -2

RobZ

If you get a chance could you post an "apples to apples" comparaison of the Filter/Normal/Low Lamp mode vs the No Filter/Normal/Low Lamp mode. I'd just like to see the difference just the filter makes. In your original pics you showed the Filter/Normal/Low Lamp vs No Filter/Normal/High Lamp and I thought the pictures were pretty similar, which leads me to believe you got the brightness of high lamp in the low lamp mode by using the filter. Is this an accurate statement?

If so then I would assume that the same image taken with no filter in low lamp would not be as bright?

John

Thanks Rob,

I will try them with the Panasonic 97S tomorrow. We have a big snow storm with high winds on Long Island tonight and the electric is going on and off. I don't want to turn the projector on tonight. I agree that the
Zenith would not look good with these settings. I have one and I have never been able to get the settings right. The cropping on the right side
also turned me off to the Zenith. The Panasonic 97S works great with the
AE700, the best player I have ever owned.

RobZ,

Does the picture in the two modes below look similar? Just wondering as the settings seem to be very different, and I just wanted to know if that's what it took to get similar pictures. Also in video mode there are lots of posts going back saying that brad bissel's settings give the best brightness and CR, and that you need to max out all the color panels to get the best picture.

Brad has positive values for both Contrast Green & Contrast Blue so I was wondering if you tried that out?

John

Originally posted by RobZ
My DVD player is a Denon 2900. The color of the Zenith DVB318, for example, would not look good with these settings.

NORMAL
Low Lamp
Contrast -3
Bright -2
Color -5
Tint 0
Sharpness -4
Color Temp 0
Dynamic Iris On

Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid 0
Gamma Low 0

Contrast Red -9
Contrast Green -7
Contrast Blue 0
Bright Red -7
Bright Green -3
Bright Blue -6



VIDEO
Low Lamp
Contrast -8
Bright -8
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharpness -4
Color Temp 0
Dynamic Iris On

Gamma High 0
Gamma Mid 0
Gamma Low 0

Contrast Red 0
Contrast Green 0
Contrast Blue 0
Bright Red -2
Bright Green -2
Bright Blue -2

John,

The image without the filter may be truly brighter than with the filter. However, the image definitely has a better contrast ratio with the filter and appears brighter. I think the Normal mode without filter had an artificial quality to it prior to the filter. It is now more natural. Previously, I was using Cinema 1 or natural but didn't like the dimness. I will play with some comparisons of both modes, filtered, unfiltered, and Brad Bissel's settings. I actually have his similar settings saved on my 700. They look very good. The Denon 2900 seems to like red a bit too much. I would be very pleased with either to be quite honest. The DVD feeding the projector will require you to calibrate for that specific color. Obviously a projector with a particular color bias would require different settings.

Rwestley, does your 700 have the white flashes? I was considering buying an S97. I love the 2900 but wouldn't mind trying other units to compre (Onkyo SP1000, 3910, Marantz 9200). I havn't had my projector firmware upgraded yet though.

-Robert

RobZ, I had the white flashes when I got the 700 with firmware 103. I had it updated to 107 and that solved the white flash prolem. If you have the white flash problem send in the projector and have it updated. It was worth it for me.

Thanks agan for posting your settings. I previously had the Zenith, The
Momitsu 880 and a Samsung player. The 97 with the new firmware gives
me a great picture and the unit is problem free.

Where is the service center for Panasonic's firmware change?

Originally posted by bradbissell
jagouar-

Yes, those are the current recommended settings for the Component input. Remember to set brightness, contrast, sharpness, tint and hue with AVIA/DVE for these settings to be correct with your specific projector.

Brad, Can you please post your complete setting - contrast, brightness, color temp etc, etc, etc,

w/ filter (B&W KR6 81EF):

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

I am using 720p over HDMI, I am using your setting now, but I still think I can improve on this.

Anyone with bw filter, S97, please post your setting.

Thanks

Baja

Panasonic service is being done by Heartland in Kansas. Call this number first and let them know that you want the firmware upgrade. They will give you all the information.

For personalized assistance with this Panasonic Projector product please contact the Panasonic Projector Engineers at:



800-524-1448 then press OPTION 2 on the voice menu.

Regards,

Panasonic Technical Support

You can also call Heartland direct and get a RMA at the following number.

Call Heartland Services at 913-685-8855

Just hooked up my Xbox through component last night to the ae700.
It seems that I have ghosting on the majority of the games even ESPN basketball 2K4 which I believe is at least 720p compatible.

I have the Madcatz AV adapter for my xbox and it has component output.
I also have hooked it up with a 12' Acoustic Research component cable made by Recoton. Payed $50 CAD

What are the areas I should look at to help or tweak this issue?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

hdaynard

I get the best picture from my xbox with the x2vga adapter. The one downfall of using the vga is that you can't send 480i through it but that almost never comes up. I like the picture much more than with component via the xbox HD adapter. It is far sharper.

BTW I have 2 xboxes (let's just say I have a 99% accuracy rate in going on xbox live without the mod on) and one of them shows thick yellow banding in 480p using the xbox hd adapter, the other is fine. I have read this is dependant on the version of your xbox.

Thanks Brad,

Do you find you experience ghosting with your component input with the MS HD pak? I have seen some comments about the Madcatz hd pak that it may be sub-par and cause some of those issues.

As for your solution are there any games you can't play?
I thought pretty much all Xbox games were capable of 480p or better.

I may just go out and get me the X2VGA + HD pak.

I have never seen ghosting via the xbox. The only game I wanted to play but could not is manhunt. It has no 480p. Besides that it is all good.

Search the forum for the x2vga because there is a competing product that is newer and has some better features. I can't recall what it is called though. I know I was involved in the discussion so you may just want to go through my posts.

Originally posted by bradbissell
Just so everyone knows I am using the component input with a dvd player and DM is using the VGA input with a HTPC. This is probably why using my settings are too green for him.



Brad,

Are you using the zenith 318 with the ae700? I see it as one of the dvd players in your profile. I am using the zenith over component @ 1080i with the B+W multi coated kr6 (81ef) filter and your exact video mode settings look great to me. I can't believe how much better it looks. Projecting on a 114" diagonal DIY bo cloth screen for now...probably will upgrade to a carada later. HD with the filter and video mode looks outstanding....Man on Fire on HBOHD over the weekend seemed to really show off the added benefits of the filter.


John

Originally posted by barnie
I have been following this forum for quite a while now and I know several people were going to get the firmware update to their pj's, but I haven't read anything from anyone who has done so, as to what the improvements may be. My main concern is VB and want to know if this issue is addressed at all? Thanks to all, B:)

I have a brand new AE700U with 1.07 and the VB is quite obvious. Supposedly it will go away after more use.

No fix for it in 1.07.

Here are a few pics in Video mode, low lamp, and with the filter. They demonstrate the black level, contrast, and skin tones. Have some of this Sony! :)

http://img75.exs.cx/img75/4333/image12cr.jpg

http://img75.exs.cx/img75/5658/image29is.jpg

RobZ, which mode do you like best Video or Normal.

Did you use the Dennon for your tests? How did you calibrate you
machine using the filter and low lamp mode?

Honestly, I like both. For the darker or dimmer movies (such as Ladder 49 or a dark movie like Underworld) I prefer the Normal mode. For the "punchier" or brighter movies (like Dodgeball) I prefer the Video mode. The 700 was set up using Avia combined with subjective preferences using images that are very familiar to me (Spiderman, Fifth Element, Etc.). I used the Denon 2900. I am also going to set up my system with my Zenith DVB318, and may even try my RP82.

Just to add some further confusion or clarity to the proceedings, depending on your perspective ;), I've just calibrated with Avia, starting from Brad Bissell's settings, using the B&W KR6 81EF filter. (Now that I have 40+ hours on my AE700.)

I have a Pioneer DV-09 Elite DVD player, utilizing component connections, and a Da-Lite 102" screen.

My settings:
Mode: Video
Lamp: High
Contrast: +12
Bright: -15
Color: -11
Tint: 0
Sharpness: +1
Color Temp: On
Dynami Iris: On
Advanced:
Gammas: 0
Contrast:
R: 0
G: +5
B: +4
Bright:
R :-2
G: -2
B: -3

I was initially surprised that Bright and Contrast were that far "off" from zero with Avia calibration, but at least the direction of those adjustments is consistent with the advanced contrast and bright settings (which I kept from Brad Bisell's starting point).

I'm watching the Big East tournament preview on ESPN-HD right now, and Digger Phelps's suitcoat is as black a black as I've ever seen on my HT screen (previous PJ was a 6-year-old Sony 400Q, where, as a 5-generation-old LCD PJ, blacks were a definite weakness).

Thankyou to everyone who replied to my firmware update query. I have version 1.03 but if the newer versions don't help with VB then I probably won't give up my projector for the 2 or 3 weeks it takes to update. I'm using component input so I don't suffer from white flashes..... unless the steel plate in my head starts to act up. ;)

Still interested in comments from anyone else who has the update.

Cheers, B

Rob Z I liked your pics with the filter. I have just ordered a panny 700, which will replace my infocus 4805. I noticed you have a carada screen. Is it matte white or BW.? I am going to purchase a carada screen soon and yours looked great.

I have the matte white 110". I was initially going to buy a Stewart at my local dealer for around $2k. Instead I bought the Carada. It is an awesome deal. They are very good value products. If there is one thing that I have that is immune to my upgraditis, it is the Carada.

dan webster,

Can you tell us why your abandoning your 4805 for the Panny 700? I would have liked to consider some of the cheaper DLP projectors but due to placement requirements the Panny is the only machine that will work in my living room.

Thanks,
Brian

Originally posted by RobZ
Honestly, I like both. For the darker or dimmer movies (such as Ladder 49 or a dark movie like Underworld) I prefer the Normal mode. For the "punchier" or brighter movies (like Dodgeball) I prefer the Video mode. The 700 was set up using Avia combined with subjective preferences using images that are very familiar to me (Spiderman, Fifth Element, Etc.). I used the Denon 2900. I am also going to set up my system with my Zenith DVB318, and may even try my RP82.

Curious to here about the review of the RP82. ;)
I have the little panny RP82, but I have it hooked up to my Toshiba RPTV right now. My Denon 2910 is reserved for the AE-700. ;)


Maybe a review of the RP82 vs. the Denon 2910 is in order. :)

Craig

BrianRC I really liked my 4805. It puts out a great picture. The way i am forced to mount it due to its trhow is right in the way of my second row of seats. I have a low ceiling and people keep hitting their head on it. Also i want a bigger screen, the 92' does not look as big as it used to. I am most likely going to order a Carada 104' which is the biggest i can fit on my wall in my basement theater. The 4805 would show too much screen door for me since my first row of seats is appx 13 feet from the screen. I am hoping the panny 700 with smooth screen eliminates most of that. I saw a sanyo z3 and liked the picture but i really noticed the pixels at about 13 feet from a 100 inch screen.
The 4805 was a great first pj but its been six months and it is time to upgrade. I also ordered tje B&W filter to go with it. The pics here looked so nice with it on. I already have the filter but am waiting for the pj to arrive, not til monday.
When it comes ,assuming i like it i will be selling my 4805. Hoped this helped. If it was not for these issues i would gladly be keeping it.

RobZ Thanks, i could not tell if it was a matte white or BW. I have samples of both. The BW is much thicker,i am leaning toward it if for no other reason as it appears that it will last longer and be more resistant to tearing and damage. I am concerned that the BW could make the black images too grey. When i get the pj i will test it but it is hard to make a good decision with a small sample. Did you try the BW sample before you ordered the matte white?
Dan Webster

I already had a 1.0 gain screen prior to the Carada so it was not much of a decision for me. I am very happy with it.

Dan and Robz

I have a BW Carada 134" diagonal, and my 700 is projecting from 21 ft., I have a totally light controlled theater in my basement, and the picture is very vibrant. I am very pleased with my BW screen.

The BW fabric is very thick and resilient, very taught surface when snapped into the frame. I had a dirt smudge on mine, I took a wet cloth (water only) gently removed the stain and dried it off with another clean and soft cloth, no damage, discoloration, puckering or any other consequence.

As far as my black levels, I am very pleased with them and the BW screen, after using some of the non filter pic tweaks on this forum, my blacks look really good. A friend of mine who has a Benq8700 said that my black levels look damn near as good as his.

Jeff, that is probably a good, if not the only, choice (BW) for your size screen. I wouldn't use a matte white at that size.

My RP82 looks great on the AE700. It isn't as clear at the 318, but it is almost as good. The great thing about the RP82 is that if you leave the projector in Auto aspect ratio mode it detects the changes between 4:3 and 16:9 and displays them correctly. With this combo I never have to change aspect ratios on my AE700. :)

Originally posted by jeffmcc
Dan and Robz

I have a BW Carada 134" diagonal, and my 700 is projecting from 21 ft., I have a totally light controlled theater in my basement, and the picture is very vibrant. I am very pleased with my BW screen.

The BW fabric is very thick and resilient, very taught surface when snapped into the frame. I had a dirt smudge on mine, I took a wet cloth (water only) gently removed the stain and dried it off with another clean and soft cloth, no damage, discoloration, puckering or any other consequence.

As far as my black levels, I am very pleased with them and the BW screen, after using some of the non filter pic tweaks on this forum, my blacks look really good. A friend of mine who has a Benq8700 said that my black levels look damn near as good as his.

Jeff,
What MODE are you utilizing for that size screen? Just *don't* say DYNAMIC mode and I'll be happy. ;)
Is it 134" at 1.78 or 2.35?

ted

Originally posted by bradbissell
My RP82 looks great on the AE700. It isn't as clear at the 318, but it is almost as good. The great thing about the RP82 is that if you leave the projector in Auto aspect ratio mode it detects the changes between 4:3 and 16:9 and displays them correctly. With this combo I never have to change aspect ratios on my AE700. :)

Brad,
Do you have aspect control with the 318 over component/HDMI?
I've an PRISMASONIC in the works and though I utilize an HTPC for anamorphic ratio control a DVD player that allows me to squeeze the image is something I'm interested in.

ted

TVTed

My Denon DVD player is connected with component and my high def comcast box is HDMI.

For DVD's I have found Cinema 2 works best for me, and I adjust the Gamma low to -1 or -2, depending on the movie, and I get really good black levels. I will use Normal on some.

For High def over the HDMI, I prefer to use the Normal mode.

my screen is 1.78, I have gotten used to the cropping on the HDMI connection.

Jeff,
You mention you have"gotten used to the cropping". Does it appear significant? Obviously, it is something that is noticable, but for some reson I was think it was mainly a problem for PC's. I want to run HD Sat Reciever on HDMI and DVD on Component. No PC, so I was hoping cropping might not be that visible. Would appreciate any info you could pass on.
Thank you,
Steeler7

Steeler7,

Cropping is visible on any source connected via HDMI. My 1.78 screen is filled perfectly from edge to edge when using component via my dvd player. However, when I switch to High Def or run my DVD player via HDMI you get cropping on the top and bottom, not a lot, but it is noticible. I can be easily remedied by zooming your picture out slightly, that is if you have good black out material to absorb the overscan on the sides.

This has been a complaint of this projector from the very beginning. However, weighing the benefits of the projector and what it delivers, this is nothing more than a minor design flaw that I can overlook. You will not get more bang for your buck, in my opinion.

Originally posted by rwestley
Thanks Rob,

I will try them with the Panasonic 97S tomorrow. We have a big snow storm with high winds on Long Island tonight and the electric is going on and off. I don't want to turn the projector on tonight. I agree that the
Zenith would not look good with these settings. I have one and I have never been able to get the settings right. The cropping on the right side
also turned me off to the Zenith. The Panasonic 97S works great with the
AE700, the best player I have ever owned.

I have a Zenith 318B and I get a great picture using the B&W MrC filter with the BradBissell settings.

I have been looking at the 97S, however, because I've heard good things about it.

Can you give me some specifics about how the 97S works better with the AE700 compared to the Zenith?

Thanks,

Steve

Originally posted by jeffmcc
Steeler7,

Cropping is visible on any source connected via HDMI. My 1.78 screen is filled perfectly from edge to edge when using component via my dvd player. However, when I switch to High Def or run my DVD player via HDMI you get cropping on the top and bottom, not a lot, but it is noticible. I can be easily remedied by zooming your picture out slightly, that is if you have good black out material to absorb the overscan on the sides.

This has been a complaint of this projector from the very beginning. However, weighing the benefits of the projector and what it delivers, this is nothing more than a minor design flaw that I can overlook. You will not get more bang for your buck, in my opinion.


I have the 1.07 firmware and it has a feature that allows you to turn off the HD overscan. I don't know if earlier versions of the firmware have that.

What is the best color correction filter for the AE700 ? Heliopan 77mm KR-6 81EF or B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF ?

Sorry if it's been said in this thread but it is verry too many page for a french like me
;)

Thanks !

Steve, I have a cropping issue with the Zenith 318. The Secrets review also points this out. The other problem is that I get a picture shift with it and there space on the right side. I find it annoying to have to shift the projector each time I switch from the 318 to other sources. The picture I get with the 97S using HDMi is the best I have ever had. I also previously used a Momitsu 880 which was good but compared to the 97S with the new firmware it can't compare. I also do not have a macroblocking issue with the 97S and the AE700 combo. I have just received the filter and have not tried it yet. I do know that the settings will be different with the 97 vs the 318. The 318 has a much brighter picture with a green tint without adjustments.

Originally posted by tvted
Brad,
Do you have aspect control with the 318 over component/HDMI?
I've an PRISMASONIC in the works and though I utilize an HTPC for anamorphic ratio control a DVD player that allows me to squeeze the image is something I'm interested in.

ted

The 318 has vertical stretch that works nice on my panamorph. It has a variable zoom mode that allows independent stretching on either axis. I use it over component with 1080i upscaling. The prismasonic site lists the AE700 as one of the 16x9 projectors that has stretch modes that will work, but aspect controls on the ae700 are not available for any of the res above 480p on component or hdmi, so I don't know how well they work.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
I have the 1.07 firmware and it has a feature that allows you to turn off the HD overscan. I don't know if earlier versions of the firmware have that.


I think v1.05 does.

Originally posted by jmck407
The 318 has vertical stretch that works nice on my panamorph. It has a variable zoom mode that allows independent stretching on either axis. I use it over component with 1080i upscaling. The prismasonic site lists the AE700 as one of the 16x9 projectors that has stretch modes that will work, but aspect controls on the ae700 are not available for any of the res above 480p on component or hdmi, so I don't know how well they work.

Thanks for that.
Prismasonic is on its way.
I use an HTPC for scaling which I would like to move to HDMI.
Was just thinking that the 318 might make it easier on the kids.

thanks again,
I might look into the LG version of the 318 here in the Land o' the North.
ted

Originally posted by rwestley
Steve, I have a cropping issue with the Zenith 318. The Secrets review also points this out. The other problem is that I get a picture shift with it and there space on the right side. I find it annoying to have to shift the projector each time I switch from the 318 to other sources. The picture I get with the 97S using HDMi is the best I have ever had. I also previously used a Momitsu 880 which was good but compared to the 97S with the new firmware it can't compare. I also do not have a macroblocking issue with the 97S and the AE700 combo. I have just received the filter and have not tried it yet. I do know that the settings will be different with the 97 vs the 318. The 318 has a much brighter picture with a green tint without adjustments.

Thanks for the info ...

I'm happy with my 318 for now, but I know what you mean about the shift.

I'm used to setting the horizontal shift to +22 for DVD and back to 0 for HD TV. Not a big deal to me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to do it every time. However, I rarely switch back and forth during a viewing session. I usually watch a movie on DVD or HD TV, rarely do both in one night.

I'll have to put the 97 and and HMDI cable on my wish list. I need at least a 30 foot cable, so I know they are spendy.

Steve, the price of HDMi players and cables are coming down. I know of a few that will be released by Sony that will be half the price of the 97S Lets hope they are good. Regarding cables, there are several sites selling 30 food cables at about half the price that they were a few months ago. Keep your 318 for a few more months and you may save some money.