AE700 Tweak Thread [Text View] - Page 6

Pilfer

03-14-05, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by simarddominic
What is the best color correction filter for the AE700 ? Heliopan 77mm KR-6 81EF or B+W 77mm KR-6 81EF ?

Sorry if it's been said in this thread but it is verry too many page for a french like me
;)

Thanks !

I had been trying to work this one out myself. I've got the Heliopan filter on order now.

This is why I went for it over the B+W.

The filter needs to reduce the colour temperature from about 10500K to around 6500K.
The mired value of the right CC filter to do this would be:
1000000/6500 - 1000000/10500 = 58.6 mired.

The B+W 81EF filter has a value of 52 mired. The Heliopain is not exactly a 81EF filter, it uses the German system, a KR6 filter, a little stronger than the 81EF. It's rated at 60 mired. It's closer to the right value.

This all could be completely wrong. So I've got a cheap second hand cokin 81EF coming to do a comparison. Now all I need is for them to ship the Smart III 2.0 I have on order and I can calibrate with them and see which delivers the better contrast.

I want to do another little experiment when I get Smart III. Raise contrast on each colour (without filter) and find the exact blue and green excess at the point it maxes out. From that rather than just going for a straight CC filter I want to try reducing green and blue by that amount, I may have to use 2 filters. Theoretically this should yield the highest contrast with the entire range of each panel usable. The hard part is getting information about exactly how each filter effects the light spectrum and matching it to what the projector puts out as red, green and blue. At least there is a nice little graph of this on cine4home. Not many filter manufacturers give the graphs of their filters.

tree109

03-15-05, 11:24 AM

Has anyone used smartIII to calibrate Normal Mode and filter settings? I was using Brad Bissels settings in video mode. I switched to Normal Mode because of the lack of black detail. I think I matched video mode contrast or slightly increased it over video settings. But the big pay off is better black detail and and colors that are not flueresent. Unlike some one elses normal settings whereas he increased brightness to acheive better black detail I reduced it along with contrast. Here are my settings; NORMAL MODE with Filter 81EF: Contrast -4 , Brightness -4 , Sharpness -4 , Contrast Red +4 , Contrasr Green +5 , Contrast Blue +5 , Bright Red -4, Bright Green -3 , Bright Blue -1 , and finally Gamma High 0 , Gamma Mid +3 , Gamma Low +3. Switch between settings and you will see the whites have more detail ,along with the blacks, also colors don't hurt you eyes. The black level stays the same and has bright clear picture with no greyish glaze. Post your responses.

VornHune

03-15-05, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by jagouar
Well got my B/W filter in (the cheapo one)... and its a night and day difference on my setup. Blacks are very black and really gives a awesome image now.... and it was damn good before.

I also just received my B/W filter, the less expensive one, and I have to second jagouar's statements. When even the wife notices the improvements, you know you have a winner. For anyone who shelled out $2K for this projector, I would definitely say this is $50 you want to spend. (If not the B/W, some other similar filter set-up)

My .02,
Nate

rwestley

03-15-05, 01:41 PM

Has anyone used the filter at low lamp settings using an HDMI input?

If you have please post your settings.

mrjag

03-15-05, 04:29 PM

I just ran across this posting on a photography forum:

Some filters are uncoated. Most people wouldn't know the difference unless they saw an uncoated and a multi-coated side-by-side (amazing the difference in light transmission and glare reflectance)! Some brands are mistakenly(?) misadvertised and one of those is Heliopan, whose standard coating process is only one (1) hard coat per side, not "2 hard coats per side" or "double hard-coated both sides" as you might find in photo magazine ads. The truth here is: Heliopan Standard Coating process is one (1) per side and B+W Standard Coating process is one (1) per side (2 total for either brand's standard, coated filter). Heliopan Multiple Coating is 7 per side (14 total), and B+W Multiple Coating is 4 per side (8 total). Hoya has multi-coating, but see "h." (I've confirmed the Heliopan misadvertising--in writing--through the Heliopan factory in Germany and through their distributor in NY state.)

BajaFishin

03-15-05, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by rwestley
Has anyone used the filter at low lamp settings using an HDMI input?

If you have please post your settings.

rwestley,

I am using low lamp mode and with Brad Bissels settings. To be honest, just by switching back and forth from low to high lamp modes, I think it's not that big of different; I have both HCMW and Hi-power screens, and I have try it on both screens.

btw, I still think there is room to improve Brad Billsels settings, or if anyone can come up with a settings that improve the brightness and amazing CR, please help the community out.

TIA

Baja

mrjag

03-15-05, 07:44 PM

Optical differences in coatings on the heliopan filter:
http://www.heliopan.com/images/Helio_coating_chart.jpg

Wavelength filtering diagram of the heliopan filter:
http://www.heliopan.com/images/cc_chart4.jpg

rwestley

03-15-05, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the information on the settings. I have been busy trying to set up a masking system for my Home Theatre and I have had little time to test the filter. Hope to do it on the weekend.

03-15-05, 11:08 PM

Just a VB note. I have a HTPC that I use with my PJ. I have a HIPIX HDTV card that has a loopthru VGA cable. I am using the VGA input on the PJ.

Anyway, I can easily set the HPIX card to output 720P or 1080I (as well as other PC friendly resolutions). With 720P I get significant VB. Same setup but changing to 1080i output and the VB goes away.

I have tried the flicker trick. As others have found, if I power off the main switch when the PJ is not in use the VB is greatly reduced.

Anyone else with VB issues try driving at 1080i instead?

BajaFishin

03-16-05, 02:55 AM

dm, VB or FPN? is it bar or streak?

03-16-05, 06:53 AM

I am referring to 10 or so vertical bars that are evenly spaced left to right across the screen. Doesn't that equal VB?

audiomaniac

03-16-05, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by dm
I am referring to 10 or so vertical bars that are evenly spaced left to right across the screen. Doesn't that equal VB?

YEP! That's it.

I can offer my experience which is that now at over 300 hours I am very hard pressed to see any VB, whereas in the beginning it was very visible.

03-16-05, 10:06 AM

only 45 hours of use here. I hope the VB fades with time as it has fo ryou.

KostaVan

03-16-05, 10:07 AM

Pictures with AE700 @ 106" on DaLite HCCV

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/7423639CIMG1012.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/7423639CIMG1011.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/7423639CIMG1008.JPG

bapenguin

03-16-05, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by dm
only 45 hours of use here. I hope the VB fades with time as it has fo ryou.

He's right. I'm over 400 hours and VB is completely gone. I never use the hard power off either. Been soft powering for over 250 hours now.

SteveCoug

03-16-05, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by VornHune
I also just received my B/W filter, the less expensive one, and I have to second jagouar's statements. When even the wife notices the improvements, you know you have a winner. For anyone who shelled out $2K for this projector, I would definitely say this is $50 you want to spend. (If not the B/W, some other similar filter set-up)

My .02,
Nate

VornHune and Jagouar ... please post your settings with the filter.

I like to keep track of what people are doing so I can test out different settings.

For the record, I am using the original BradBissell settings on a Zenith 318B via component.

satfam

03-16-05, 06:32 PM

I have a little over 100 hours on my projector. I noticed a lot of VB when I first got it. The flicker tweak did help but now I noticed that after the projector has been on for about 40 minutes the VB is greatly reduced. I am using 720p but will try 1080i. I don't use the hard off since it is ceiling mounted.

billymac

03-17-05, 12:17 PM

so it's pay day, and i was going to buy me a filter today, but i can't find eitehr the heliopan or b+w in stock now :(

so now the question is, since i have to wait, which one should i order? i'm leaning towards the heliopan...anybody have any comments?

VornHune

03-17-05, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by SteveCoug
VornHune and Jagouar ... please post your settings with the filter.

I like to keep track of what people are doing so I can test out different settings.

For the record, I am using the original BradBissell settings on a Zenith 318B via component.

I too have stuck with Brad Bissell settings on the advanced menu, and have adjusted the main menu settings to something pleasing to the eye. I have loaned out my DVE disc to my in-laws, and will use that once I get it back. IIRC I am using something like -4 and +5 for brightness and contrast , or vice-versa.

Nate

JiffyBag

03-17-05, 03:24 PM

After getting confused with the types of B+W filters I downloaded their handbook and found the following on the filter that is mentioned mostly in this thread. Hopefully it is of use to somebody:

Full Name: B+W Conversion Filter KR 6 (81 EF)

Description: With double the strength of the KR 3, the KR 6 filter leads to neutral color rendition in strong haze, or in mountains above 2500 m (8200 feet) when transparencies are not to show “blue mountains” (which can also be attractive, depending on the individual case). It should not be used for photographs of typically foggy landscapes! Another field of application would be interior photographs on daylight reversal film when only blue light from the sky and no direct sunlight is coming through the window, and no fill-in flash is being used. In combination with tungsten reversal film, the KR 6 filter imparts the warmth of normal incandescent bulbs to the light emitted by halogen bulbs, which would appear neutral white without a filter. Its filter factor is approximately 1.4"

jasallen

03-18-05, 09:13 AM

BillyMac -- Where are you ordering from and do you know what the lead time is? I am in the same boat and am really excited to get this filter!

rwestley

03-18-05, 11:05 AM

Sorry that all of you are having difficulty getting the filter. I have the lower
cost B+W version that I got from B&H photo. They have them on order and
I would suggest getting it from them. If anyone can get it fast they can.
B&H is the largest professional photo dealer in NY. The problem is that many forum members bought the filters and they are probably out of stock in the US. They have to come from Germany.

billymac

03-18-05, 12:31 PM

yup, jasallen, rwestley beat me too it, that's where i'm ordering mine. now, i'm still struggling with heliopan or b+w, but i guess i'll go with b+w.

rwestley

03-18-05, 01:15 PM

I am sure both the Heliopan and B+W are both great. I am using the lower priced B+W and have tried Brad Bissell's settings. The contrast is really improved. The best $45 I have spent. I notice very little difference between the high and low lamp settings. I am using the low setting since I have a dedicated room with a controled light situation. I suggest that you call B&H. The person with whom I spoke when I ordered the filter was very helpful and recommended the lower priced filter for projection use.

They can give you an idea on when it will come in. I doubt many stores will
have it in stock since it is such a specialized item. I do know how you feel in having to wait. I have searched other sources on Google but I have not had success with finding any in stock. Again, B&H Photo is your best bet. If anyone can get it fast they can.

kalon74

03-18-05, 02:00 PM

I just ordered the more expensive B+W filter from B&H and they told me that I could be waiting 4 weeks to receive it. Initially I ordered the lower cost filter, but changed after I thought about it for a little. I'm sure both are fine, but knowing there was a "better" filter out there and it would only cost me an extra $30 would have made me wonder about it. I guess I'm suffering from "it can always look better" syndrome. :)

jasallen

03-18-05, 02:01 PM

Thanks guys, I was afraid that was the answer! How I feel in having to wait is the same way I felt when I pre-ordered this projector -- it sucks! But I'll do it. :-)

rwestley

03-18-05, 02:19 PM

Kalon74. Why don't you change your order to the cheaper filter since it will probably come in earlier. B&H has a 14day return policy if you are unhappy for any reason. You can always get the more expensive one if you like and the wait may be shorter. Check with B&H

rwestley

03-18-05, 02:21 PM

Is there a need to modify Bard Bissell's settings using HDMI? I have just tried them and they really improve the contrast. I do think that there may be to much green. I have not run a test disk yet. I ran the opening of Spiderman I and the blacks were amazing. I have never seen better blacks from an LCD machine after installing the B+W filter.

kalon74

03-18-05, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by rwestley
Kalon74. Why don't you change your order to the cheaper filter since it will probably come in earlier. B&H has a 14day return policy if you are unhappy for any reason. You can always get the more expensive one if you like and the wait may be shorter. Check with B&H

Ideally, I would like to get both and compare them. Has anyone here seen both side by side? If so, is there any visual difference between them? Some on this board commented that the B&H rep they spoke to recommended the lower cost filter when using with a projector. The rep I spoke to thought the superior anti-reflective properties of the MRC filter would be benefitial. The only way to be sure would be to look at both.

rwestley

03-18-05, 03:34 PM

Kalon74. Your idea of comparing both sounds good. If you can get the lower priced one first order it it can be returned in 14days. The More expensive one should be in by that time. According the the B+W both filters are coated but the MRC version has more coatings and a harder
scratch resistance glass. I don't think there will be much difference in the picture but the MRC version may last longer. We will not know for sure unless someone gets both. The person I spoke to recommended the lower priced one for projector use. It may depend on the person and his or her views. Different experts have different opinions. I would love to ask the people at B+W

kg2kg

03-18-05, 03:35 PM

It would be great if we could get two volunteers. One with the MRC coating and one with the non-MRC coating. They could decide who mails their filter to the other first, that person tests both filters, mails both filters back to the first, they test both filters, they mail the other filter back and keep their original one. If they are geographically close the mail time would be 2 days, so a total time of 8 days or so...

If I had a filter I would volunteer, but I don't... If they were both in stock - I would buy both and return one.. Waiting...

Any volunteers....

rwestley

03-18-05, 03:51 PM

I was just checking the Brochure on the B+W filters. The color specifications are the same so I don't think there would be any difference in the picture. There may be slightly less light loss with the MRC filter but since the loss is so small I don't think anyone would notice much of a difference. I also don't think there is a need for the special hard coating for
projector use. It is possible that the MRC version may last longer but we will only know after some time. I was concerned about heat on the filter but after checking I do not think it will be a problem. Only time will tell. I also believe that individual tweaks will be more important than getting one filter or the other. I think they both should be fine.

satfam

03-18-05, 07:39 PM

I ordered the lower cost B+W filter from Adorama on last Thursday and received it yesterday. I tried Brad's setting and it does greatly improve contrast and the overall look of the picture. When I ordered Adorama had 3 in stock (counting the one I ordered). I don't know if they still have them but you can email them and they will let you know. It was definitely worth the money.

billymac

03-18-05, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by satfam
I ordered the lower cost B+W filter from Adorama on last Thursday and received it yesterday. I tried Brad's setting and it does greatly improve contrast and the overall look of the picture. When I ordered Adorama had 3 in stock (counting the one I ordered). I don't know if they still have them but you can email them and they will let you know. It was definitely worth the money.

they're out, i backordered mine

i liked saying the word heliopan, but i ended up getting the cheapo b+w

BajaFishin

03-19-05, 12:46 AM

I can't believe it!! Everyone reporting that all the online stores are all out. I thought we are only few that buying the filter (are we?).
This is the best $80 I ever spend; it really put AE700 into a different category.

btw I don't think it would be that big of different between the MRC and none MRC filter, if I did my homework I would of get the none MRCs, because it costs less and I don't need the scratch resistant feature that MRC offers, I using it for the projector, how am I gonna scratch the lens? Anyway, I think none MRC just as good as the MRC for projector use.

Off the record, this just to talking $#!^ ----- I am a very proud owner of AE700, with filter, the black look just as good as most of DLP projectors, and compares it to HS51 and Z3, NO SCREENDOORS... HA HA HA I'm really enjoy my AE700. What about you??

Baja

rwestley

03-19-05, 06:34 AM

Baja, I totally agree. Getting the filter was the best $45 I spent on the projector. As you said. "It really put the AE700 into a different category."

I tried a few films I was unhappy with with my previous projector the SanyoZ2 "Lost in Translation & Spiderman. They were better on the AE700 but not great before putting on the filter. With the filter the difference in the blacks and contrast has to be seen to be believed. I know many of you are waiting for your filter. Hope it comes in soon and some of you have time to do additional tweaks.

Now that many of you have the filter I would like to suggest one low cost tweak that will have nearly as much impact. Get yourself some felt black cloth at a local fabric store and make a DIY masking system. Masking the picture really adds impact and with the use of the filter you will get a better picture than nearly any movie theatre. I did a quick DIY job with the help
of a friend but I think the people on the fourm could come up with a great
low cost masking system. The most difficult part was to make a changing
system for different aspect ratios of films.

The total cost of the masking project will probably be no more than the filter. You do not need fancy velvet cloth. Inexpensive black felt will do. I have even masked the entire front of the room around the screen.
I will try to take some pictures and post when I get a chance.

On another note: Thanks to everyone for all their help with the filter and
posting their settings. Your work has made a great projector even better.

Smegger

03-19-05, 08:02 AM

I would like to hear more about your masking system, it's something i'm trying to plan at the moment and any ideas would help.

Also anyone in Australia sourced this filter yet?

My tests with real salmon and then trout were a dismal failure so I should get the real thing :D

Maybe I should have used Atlantic instead of Pacific salmon?

rwestley

03-19-05, 09:51 AM

I think that the biggest benefit from using masking is that extra light is absorbed by the material. Since my Home Theatre room is small I decided to cover the entire front with the black felt material. The only cutout if for the 16x9 screen. To keep it flat I used molding around the screen. The biggest problem was to make the up & down masking adjustable for different aspect ratio films. I used cut two plywood boards and covered them with black felt. This is not a perfect solution since films are made in
so many different aspect ratios. 16x9=178x1 Many films are 1.85x1
and scope films are usually 2.35x1. The best way to do it would be to make
some kind of variable up and down adjustable masking system. I may do this someday when my obsesive compulsive behavior takes over. At this point I will live will very small spill over or very small boarders on the top and bottom of certain films. The good thing is that the black felt absorbs most light.

03-19-05, 10:06 AM

my masking system is as follows:

stirofoam type insulating panels from home depot. They come in 2 x 8 ft sheets 1" thick.

cut the stirofoam into 1ft x width of screen.

cover the stirofoam with black velvet or other black cloth from jo-ann'e fabrics. use thumb tacks and duct tape to fix the cloth to the stirofoam panels.

place velcro on the back of the panels and on the frame/border of my wall screen.

attach the masking panels as needed when watching 2.35x1 films on my 16:9 screen via the velcro.

very inexpensive to do. greatly enhances the viewing effect. The most expensive item is the velvet. Other fabrics are available for cheaper but they don't absorb the light like the velvet does.

conehead433

03-19-05, 10:29 AM

Thanks for the suggestion about using syrofoam insulating panels for masking panels. It should be far easier than making a wooden frame of sorts and much lighter as well. Good thinking.

rwestley

03-19-05, 10:35 AM

Try could also try thick felt. It works as well as the expensive velvet. I have compared both. Thanks for the tip on the use of the stirofoam insulating panels. They are much lighter and less expensive than plywood.

tvted

03-19-05, 11:57 AM

Some of you might want to consider foam core which should be available in a variety of thicknesses in 4' x 8' sheets. You can also buy it in matte black if so desired.
It should be available at your local art materials supplier.

ted

BajaFishin

03-19-05, 12:46 PM

How you do a masking system with a pull down screen? :confused: :confused:

rwestley

03-19-05, 03:46 PM

Baja, That would be a big problem. I would hope that other fourm members might have some ideas. That is the main reason why a have a non movable screen. I do realize that this is not always possible and there should be some way to set up some kind of masking system. That would be a great idea for a screen manufacture.

djbluemax1

03-19-05, 06:45 PM

Warning: Long post!

Congrats to everyone who got the B+W or Heliopan filters and are enjoying the results. All forumites love finding something that improves their toys especially when the cost is pretty low.

Now I know it's been a while since I posted on the tweak thread about using various free filters from Lee and Roscolux but it's been quite a wait for me too. First, I was waiting for my PJ to return from the fw update, then I had to wait for my Smart III package because it was backordered, then after receiving it, I got word that ver 2.0 was finally ready and I waited for the email to download that. After receiving that, I tried registering the meter that comes with the package to receive the default values and found out that I had to wait a little longer because Steve Smallcombe had made a few adjustments to the relationship calcs for the measurements.

Well, after all that, I finally got it working and tried it out last night. First off, Gotta say that anyone who might be thinking about getting Smart III should definitely do it. One of the big differences between Smart III and Colorfacts or the OpticOne system is ease-of-use. The other 2 being made for pro use are a lot simpler and faster, but the Smart system gives pretty good results too. If you have $2000-$3000 in your pocket, Colorfacts or OpticOne would be great but for just under $300, Smart is a bargain. The biggest things to consider about buying one of these systems is that
a) As some people have found and others have mentioned time and again, there can be sufficient variation PJ to PJ for one user's D65 settings to not work for another.
b) Although you might calibrate to D65 now, as the UHP bulb ages, the color spectra tends to shift so after an additional few hundred hours, you have to recalibrate to achieve D65 again. When you change the bulb, you'll have to recalibrate again because some people after testing several new bulbs found variances even between new bulbs.

A minimum of 3 calibrations necessary would make the Colorfacts rental cost $900, where with Smart III, you can keep using the system to recalibrate (or to calibrate your new upgrade projector some time down the road)

That being said, the real reason I wrote this post is to give some of the filter tweakers an option. The last time I used Colorfacts, I managed to get a 2000:1 CR using a free filter from Lee. (Pale Gold with Video mode). I now have the entire range of free filters from Lee, Roscolux and GamColor and will use Smart III ver2.0 to try to see if there is a free filter that can match or possibly exceed the results obtained by BradBissell who also used Smart to calibrate with.

Since the absolute black floor is limited by the PJ from its light leakage, the only real way to increase the CR is to start with the brightest modes. Granted, all the modes in default settings still have room to lower the black floor by reducing the RGB Bias settings, but once you do that, the only way to increase CR is to maximize the brightness of the higher IRE's.

Last night I tried some trial measurements of Video, Normal and Dynamic modes and they all have their quirks. Dynamic is by far the brightest to start with and I tried measuring that mode after maxing the RGB contrast and minimizing the RGB bias. I also tried something that I unfortunately neglected to try the last time I had Colorfacts available and that was to measure the different color temp settings available. In another thread where another user used Colorfacts to check the AE700, they found that the color temp settings not only seriously affected the RGB output but could actually flip the primaries that were overblown. I had simply assumed that the color temp settings only increased/decreased R and B at a fairly standard rate but after measuring the different color temps, that turns out to NOT be the case!

For measuring and calibrating a PJ, Smart III is great, but for serious filter tweaking, its one downside begins to show. Smart III takes a lot more time for a measurement run. Having to measure not only the different modes but different color temp settings of each mode starts to get really tedious. The 7 hours I spent last night only got me complete IRE measurements for the Video mode that I had already tweaked, the Normal mode with Color temp 0 and Dynamic with color temp 0.

I then tried to see if I could maybe use a shortcut by measuring only the 0 and 100 IRE windows at all the color temp settings for Video, Normal and Dynamic with all the RGB settings maxed at opposite ends and used that to calculate the required attenuation by the filter, seeing how I was looking to minimize 0IRE and maximize 100IRE. I then went through the SED (Spectral Emission Distribution) graphs of all the filters I had on hand that could properly attenuate the differences I had measured between RGB in the 3 modes at 0 and 100 IRE at all the available color temp settings. I also had to calulate the percentage differences between RGB for all the different settings in all the modes at both 0 and 100IRE to find the mode and setting that had what looked like the most standard deviation to use the filters with. I found 4 that looked pretty good for Dynamic at color temp -2. After measuring all the filters at 0 and 100 IRE on Dynamic -2 one filter hit it perfectly! Matching all the attenuations with the RGB contrast maxed and Biases minimized. I was ecstatic and finally, in the wee hours of the morning I made a full measurement run with the filter and there found that my search wasn't over.

As it turned out from what I and others had previously found, the gamma on Dynamic is a little weird, and the color temp -2 does some weird things to the RGB output. The filter I had picked perfectly attenuated the pciture from 0-20IRE and 80-100IRE black was black and white was pure white, but everything in between was completely pink. I had made the assumption (after being tired of making individual measurements) that the UHP lamp's red deficiencies should be pretty even between 0 and 100 IRE when the primaries were maxed out. In retrospect, I forgot that the graphs always tended to show a predominance of blue and shortage of red at 0-20 IRE and at 80-100IRE, meaning the red levels tend to be higher and comparably not deficient between 20 and 80 IRE so it's back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, I won't have the chance to measure and tweak anymore over this weekend, but I've set Monday night aside to do more serious measuring and tweaking. From the outlook of it, as I said before, after examining the SED for the KR6 81EF filters vs the color charts for the AE700, I am positive that there are superior filters for attentuating the maxed primaries and with all the filters I have with their SEDs, I intend to find one.

So tweakaholics, stay tuned! :D

tvted

03-19-05, 07:16 PM

djbluemax1

Exceptional and commendable work. Hat's off to you - looking forward to further posts.

ted

KBK

03-19-05, 07:16 PM

1000 hours on my bulb..almost all in low power mode. still going strong.

rwestley

03-19-05, 10:31 PM

Thanks djbluemax1 for your great post. I know a lot of us will stay tuned.
Can't wait for your next post. I do hope you got some sleep last night.

wren251

03-19-05, 11:54 PM

Hi everyone!

I have been lurking around here (AVS) for about a year. I finally got my AE700 about a month ago. I had it upgraded to the new firmware before I purchased it.

I am seeing an issue with the pj and I have searched this thread for similar situation and may be I am just clueless but I haven't seen this issue discussed. I have my AE700 hooked up to my Time Warner HD cable box (Scientific Atlanta 8300 DVR) via an HDMI cable from Blue Jeans cable (23ft). What I am experiencing is when I switch channels from a 720p source to a 1080i source the picture flickers and goes to snow (sometimes to the blue no source).

Has anyone else experienced this? Is this the projector or cable box?

Any help would be appreciated, please be kind if it is already posted (I really did search).

Other that this issue, it is a phenomenal product.

Thx,

Chad

03-20-05, 01:10 AM

Chad someone else had this issue when they upgraded to 1.7 software. It was ok with 1.5 software. Search the 1.7 firmware thread.

hitchfan

03-20-05, 06:13 AM

Chad, I had this issue as soon as I received my AE-700U back from the firmware upgrade too, BUT, it turned out to be a bad SA-8300HD box!

No kidding. I thought it was too much of a coincidence for the STB to go bad like that right after I re-connected the projector, but I swear that's what it was. I'm with Charter Communications. They sent out a repairman and he immediately could tell there was something wrong with the box I had.

He said they've been having some buggy issues with SOME of their SA-8300HD boxes and they're weeding out the issues little by little. One problem was that so few people were using the HDMI connection that they're not seeing this problem yet. He replaced my box and the problem is completely gone now.

What you described is exactly what I was getting too. In fact, I was even getting a milder version of it through my component input too. Hope that fix is all it takes for you, too.

BTW, that 'someone else' on the firmware thread might have been ME. I was actually waiting for Panasonic to return my inital call about this problem as they said they would before I posted a followup on that one....but it's been a couple of weeks now and I still haven't heard a peep from Panasonic.

JimP

03-20-05, 06:42 AM

djbluemax1

Welcome to the world of chasing perfection. Been there, done that, got the shirt.

Keep in mind that it might not be possible to get a perfectly flat D65 at all IRE levels. Its not uncommon to have to make compromises.

03-20-05, 10:01 AM

hitchfan, you are the *other* person of interest I was referring too.

Kysersose

03-20-05, 02:36 PM

Please check out this post and try to help us out. (Post #91)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5357658#post5357658

Thanks,

bradsears

03-20-05, 03:57 PM

djbluemax1
Keep up the good work. Be sure to try out the aussiebob pink salmon.

hitchfan

03-20-05, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by dm
hitchfan, you are the *other* person of interest I was referring too.
Yeah, that's what I thought, dm.

The problem arose immediately after I re-connected my newly firmware upgraded projector and so I posted an ALERT on that thread. Because of the timing, it seemed obvious to me that the problem was the upgrade and NOT a cable provider/STB issue.

So, I called Panasonic and told them about it. They told me they were giving this information to their tech department and that they'd get right back to me by phone or email in a couple of days to let me know what they found.

After a few days, I contacted my cable provider and a new SA-8300HD box fixed the problem as stated above.

Hmm. Yes, I did intend at first to go back to that firmware upgrade thread with a "never mind" post, but...I also wanted to find out if Panasonic was going to keep it's word and get back to me or if they might have indeed found something that initiates this strange, coincidental problem between the upgrade and the SA-8300HD before I did.

Even more odd was to see a SECOND post with this same strange, coincidental issue popping up...if it really is another STB issue, that is.

Aussie Bob

03-20-05, 11:10 PM

Masking?

Bah!

Anamorphic lens is the ONLY way to go. I have one, purpose designed for HT, that weighs 5oz, AR coated, has 98% transmission (meaning the same-sized picture is effectively 20% brighter than using the "traditional" method) and cost under $500 new. No masking, no barrel or pincushion distortion, no mucking around, and NO stray-ray light spillage from the lens. Just pure lumens.

Smegger

03-20-05, 11:22 PM

So how does that anamorphic lens work? What does it do? I'm assuming it keeps your screen filled with picture but then doesn't it stretch or compress at least some of the image?

Assume your replying to an idiot and you can't go wrong :-)

Aussie Bob

03-21-05, 01:21 AM

In the case of the AE-700 you go into ZOOM1 mode (that's the PAL name... it may have a different name with NTSC video, maybe just "ZOOM"). Whatever, this is the mode that zooms only vertically. It keeps the width of the projected image unchanged. So what you end up with is a 2.35:1 (Cinemascope) picture filling the whole 16:9 AE-700 screen i.e. using all the pixels. Of course, due to the differences in the aspect ratios between 2.35:1 (actually 64:27) and 16:9 everyone looks tall and skinny, circles are egg-shaped etc... the geometry's wrong.

What the anamorphic lens does is widen the 16:9 picture by 1.33:1, making it 64:27 (called "2.35:1") while maintaining the height and restoring correct geometry. Circles are circles again, faces look normal... except that the screen is now full frame Cinemascope... no black bars top and borrom of the screen to distract you AND it uses ALL the pixels of the AE-700 to do so.

Using an anamorphic lens means you don't have to zoom your picture to a large size, just to get the right width for a Cinemascope movie. You only have to set it to the correct HEIGHT. The lens then widens it out to Cinemascope ratio. This means that if you swing the anamorphic lens out of the way you have normal 16:9 pictures again, without needing to re-adjust your zoom factor to reset the height for the different aspect ratio.

Having to zoom your AE-700 projection lens less means a brighter picture to start with, and since you're only widening this smaller picture by one-third and in one direction you only lose 25% of that extra light (not 33% as some believe).

Smaller height also means that pixels are closer together, so your Cinemascope aspect image pixel-to-pixel is finer in detail vertically compared to the "traditional" technique of enlarging the whole picture and just watching the image between the black bars. You're using ALL the 720 vertical pixels to fill your screen vertically, not 3/4 of them. Horizontal pixel resolution is the same either way, so there's a nett significant gain in smoothness of image (this time it IS 33%).

Anamorphic lenses have been around for a while (since at least the 1920s). But they were first used in a big way when Cinemascope movies were introduced in the early 1950s. Cinemas all over the place had standard 4:3 aspect ratio projectors. By shooting the movie with an anamorphic (to squeeze the wide field of view in a 4:3 frame of film) and then projecting it with a "reverse" anamorphic lens (to widen the film out again), cinemas only needed to make modest adjustments to their equipment to accommodate the new format.

This is how most widescreen films are projected today. There were a few spherical lens widescreen techniques (Cinerama and Vistavision were two notable ones), but the cost of extra-wide film stock meant that the use of anamorphic lenses (using standard film stock) was the most economical.

There are two methods used to widen pictures anamorphically: one uses two counter-rotating prisms and the other uses cylindrical lenses. The prism technique was the original Panavision product, way back in 1952. It is also used in Prismasonic and Panamorph lenses for HT today. But these are incredibly bulky and heavy compared to a small form-factor cylindrical lens attachment. They also get in the way of IR remote signals to the projector and/or DVD player due to the bulk. And they have distortion when used in wide cone, short throw situations. The lens I have is cylindrical and has none of these problems. It weighs only four or five ounces and is 70mm wide by 80mm long (about 3 x 3.5 inches). There are other cylindrical lenses available for HT use, but the last I saw these can cost over $3,000 US. The one I purchased new was under $500, and as far as I can see, the pictures are superb.

As I reckon 16:9 will be the standard for HT projectors for the forseeable future, an anamorphic lens will always come in handy, as I upgrade to higher definition projectors in the future. Cinemascope aspect will never fit into 16:9 aspect ratio screens. So the adapter is Future Proof as well.

A word on masking: if you stand outside the image area and can see bright light coming from the projector lens then this is, by definition, stray light. If you hold your hand near the screen you can see a sharp shadow from these stray rays. These stray rays must decrease contrast, as they also fall within the screen area, lightening blacks. Sticking some black electrical tape on the face of the flat output element of my anamorphic lens eliminates most of this non-image stray light coming from the projection lens at the source, so I get the benefit of "masking" as well. Just about the only light that goes into the room is the actual image. This alone increases contrast by an appreciable amount, so much so that I've stopped using the Lee filter I was using. The picture is that good now that I am using all the pixels of the LCD panel and am masking any strays at the projector end. Most of my films are now projected in NORMAL mode in the projector and STANDARD at the DVD. I always have higher DVD outputs and VIDEO and DYNAMIC for particularly dull, low contrast movies. It's really the best of both worlds.

A random discovery:

A curious thing happened when I was setting up my new lens. Anamorphic adapters (cylindrical or prismatic) need to be aligned accurately with the projection lens (the center pixel of the image needs to pass through the center of both elements in the adapter), so I used SERVICE MODE to aid in doing this. While checking out focus and linearity with the SERVICE MODE cross-hatch pattern, I accidentally hit the COLOR MANAGEMENT button. To my surprise I got BOTH cross-hatch AND picture on screen at the same time. Quite useful, as now I could see both a geometrical AND a real DVD image together to get my alignment perfect.

To get out of this funny mode, just go through the SERVICE MODE routine again and turn it off with the MENU button.

I have v1.3 s/w. I hope they haven't fixed this very useful "bug" in later versions.

tvted

03-21-05, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
In the case of the AE-700 you go into ZOOM1 mode (that's the PAL name... it may have a different name with NTSC video, maybe just "ZOOM"). Whatever, this is the mode that zooms only vertically. It keeps the width of the projected image unchanged. So what you end up with is a 2.35:1 (Cinemascope) picture filling the whole 16:9 AE-700 screen i.e. using all the pixels. Of course, due to the differences in the aspect ratios between 2.35:1 (actually 64:27) and 16:9 everyone looks tall and skinny, circles are egg-shaped etc... the geometry's wrong.

Unfortunately this does *not* work for those using the HDMI input.

A random discovery:

A curious thing happened when I was setting up my new lens. Anamorphic adapters (cylindrical or prismatic) need to be aligned accurately with the projection lens (the center pixel of the image needs to pass through the center of both elements in the adapter), so I used SERVICE MODE to aid in doing this. While checking out focus and linearity with the SERVICE MODE cross-hatch pattern, I accidentally hit the COLOR MANAGEMENT button. To my surprise I got BOTH cross-hatch AND picture on screen at the same time. Quite useful, as now I could see both a geometrical AND a real DVD image together to get my alignment perfect.

To get out of this funny mode, just go through the SERVICE MODE routine again and turn it off with the MENU button.

I have v1.3 s/w. I hope they haven't fixed this very useful "bug" in later versions.

Interesting find.
Be sure that that pattern is indeed the centre of your screen - it isn't on mine. With a screen width of 80 inches it is off centre by about 1.25 inches. If yours is indeed centred you are a lucky fellow.

ted

Aussie Bob

03-21-05, 03:14 AM

You should be able to set the Cinemascope 64:27 picture to fill the 1280x720 (16:9) pixels somehow. ZOOM1 is just one way of doing this.

Imagination required, Ted.

Not being an HDMI user I don't know the finer points of what this mode is capable of.

An anamorphic is really the way to go. Simply superb picture. Like being right in the middle of a cinema.

As to the "off-centre" problem, a few millimetres won't make much of a difference to the Viewing Mob. Panavision's original 1952 set-up instructions were highly non-technical. They basically just advised projectionists to get the screen the best they could. The "wow" factor from the audience would take care of the rest.

And it does.

moehliner

03-21-05, 04:03 AM

Aussie Bob,

Can you divulge the make/model of your anamorphic lens?

Thanks!

jmck407

03-21-05, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
You should be able to set the Cinemascope 64:27 picture to fill the 1280x720 (16:9) pixels somehow. ZOOM1 is just one way of doing this.

Imagination required, Ted.

Not being an HDMI user I don't know the finer points of what this mode is capable of.

None of the aspect ratio controls of the ae700 works with resolutions above 480p, on either component or hdmi...not sure about vga, I have not tried this input. 480p on hdmi does allow some aspect ratio controls, but I could not find zoom1 or an equivalent in them. There is a page in the manual with a table that explains this...although not well. I use an anamorphic lens, and my dvd player for the vertical stretch. It does improve the quality of 2.35 ar movies quite a bit, imho.

John

leedc

03-21-05, 09:22 AM

I have been following this post since page 1 and want to thank those that have been generous enough to post the results of their hard work. I read somewhere that there is at least one person in this forum that is pushing the AE700 to 135". I would like to know if this projector is capable of pushing out a decent picture at 2.0x viewing distance on a 135" studiotek 130 screen in a 100% dedicated home theatre with full light control. I don't know how to calculate foot lamberts nor do I know the lumen output after the Panny has been optimized. Would appreciate any feedback.

tvted

03-21-05, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
You should be able to set the Cinemascope 64:27 picture to fill the 1280x720 (16:9) pixels somehow. ZOOM1 is just one way of doing this.

Imagination required, Ted.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Yes Bob,

A scaler of some sort.
In my case an HTPC with ZOOMPLAYER and ffdshow.
TheatreTek is another alternative.

An anamorphic is really the way to go. Simply superb picture. Like being right in the middle of a cinema.

Yes Bob,

In my case a PRISMASONIC H1000. Part of the plan when I decided to buy a projector. Film tech is part of my personal history yah know - as I thought you might from our exchanges in the past. Oh well .
Don't agree about being in the middle of a cinema but to each...

Ever the humble didact you are.

ted

tvted

03-21-05, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by jmck407
None of the aspect ratio controls of the ae700 works with resolutions above 480p, on either component or hdmi...not sure about vga, I have not tried this input. 480p on hdmi does allow some aspect ratio controls, but I could not find zoom1 or an equivalent in them. There is a page in the manual with a table that explains this...although not well. I use an anamorphic lens, and my dvd player for the vertical stretch. It does improve the quality of 2.35 ar movies quite a bit, imho.

John

480 vs 720
Thanks John for being more concise and observant than me.

ted

jasallen

03-21-05, 04:47 PM

Anyone try the Tiffen or Coken 81EF filter? How close is it and how does it compare to the Heliopan and B&W ?

Aussie Bob

03-21-05, 04:50 PM

Ted,

The combination cross-hatch and picture mode would be good for you with a Prismasonic, as I've heard the prisms in that device are not interlinked (certainly seems that way with two knobs on top).

From my own experience, there are many combinations of angles of each prism that will give you a net 1.33 stretch (this from mucking around with a Panavision "anamorphotic" prism system), but only one combination that will have symmetrical geometry i.e. same stretch each side of centre. Having a picture and cross-hatch to test various combos of angles would be a good thing in that case. The few millimetres of offset that you mention between the two wouldn't be too much of a problem.

amature

03-21-05, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
What the anamorphic lens does is widen the 16:9 picture by 1.33:1, making it 64:27 (called "2.35:1") while maintaining the height and restoring correct geometry. Circles are circles again, faces look normal... except that the screen is now full frame Cinemascope... no black bars top and borrom of the screen to distract you AND it uses ALL the pixels of the AE-700 to do so.

I'm confused. I have a 16:9 screen. With 2.35:1 movies, it has the bars on top and bottom. If I zoom in, it makes them tall and skinny. By putting an anamorphic lens into the equation, it takes the picture I just made tall and skinny (by zooming) back out to the 2.35:1 ratio. Correct?

So now, I have a picture that fits the screen's overall height, but isn't the image projected beyond the edges? Wouldn't I need to use the lens zoom to shrink the picture horizontally to fit the screen again? Thereby introducing the blank bars on top and bottom?

Is the sole purpose just to relieve the projector of having to "produce" the black bars?

JimmyR

03-21-05, 05:45 PM

Greg, take out the "zoom" and everything zoom does in your equation, your almost there :).
Using zoom can't make any part of the image "tall and skinny"

"Is the sole purpose just to relieve the projector of having to "produce" the black bars?"

No ! You will also gain 20-33% brightness and resoloution with the lens.

rudab

03-21-05, 06:42 PM

HI,
I just got my panny a700 and connected to my arcam dvd 79 which has progressive scan built in....sorry this my sound dumb, but i am new at this and this forum is awesome:

i am a bit a confused: i ran the progressive scan on my dvd player and it says (pal only 625, nts only 525).... when I play the dvd and go in the PICTURE menu, signal mode says 525p and I can't change it to anything(ie720p).

I removed progressive mode from the component on the dvd, and still when i go into the picture menu it gives me 525 i, but i cant cahnge it to 720p

i understood that the projector had its own interlacer and that the native res was 720...what ami /i doing wrong?

JimP

03-21-05, 06:48 PM

rudab

As someone else mentioned, there is a difference between deinterlacing and scaling.

Scaling is the process where a device takes a 480 signal and scales it to either 720 or 1080. Unless your Arcam can scale OR if you have an external scaler, then the projector is going to either see 480 or whatever the PAL equivalent is.

tvted

03-21-05, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by amature
I'm confused. I have a 16:9 screen. With 2.35:1 movies, it has the bars on top and bottom. If I zoom in, it makes them tall and skinny. By putting an anamorphic lens into the equation, it takes the picture I just made tall and skinny (by zooming) back out to the 2.35:1 ratio. Correct?

So now, I have a picture that fits the screen's overall height, but isn't the image projected beyond the edges? Wouldn't I need to use the lens zoom to shrink the picture horizontally to fit the screen again? Thereby introducing the blank bars on top and bottom?

Is the sole purpose just to relieve the projector of having to "produce" the black bars?

Yes, properly projected for constant height a 2.35 image would expand beyond the borders of a 1.78 screen. The operative phrase is "constant height" - only the width of the image should vary in this type of setup.
You will need to create a 2.35 screen to take full advantage of a anamorphic lens.
For example, my constant height setup is 46 inches.
For 1.78 ratio films my lens has a passthrough mode that projects the panel size as it would were the lens not in place. i.e. the image is 46 x 82 inches. I mask the screen on either side. With 2.35 movies I remove the masks and adjust my anamorphic (not PJ) lens to do the anamorphic stretch, the image of course has been stretched vertically by my HTPC. Once I've stretched it out proportions are proper and I'm viewing a 46 x 108 inch image. I would go larger but PJ limitations and room limits enter into the equation.

Do a search in both DigiPJ forums under ANAMORPHIC or PANAMORPH or PRISMASONIC or ISCO. You should find threads related.

Constant Height means that the relative size between the various ratios are projected as filmakers meant them to be.
i.e 2.35 > 1.85 > 1.78 > 1.33

ted

moehliner

03-22-05, 01:57 AM

Bob,

In your post from yesterday ("Anamorphic Lenses Don't Just Give You widescreen For Free...") you spoke about an anamorphic lens that you purchased new for less then $500.

I am very interested in possibly getting a lens based on your post but all of the ones I find when searching the Internet are $700, $1000 and up - way out of my budget.

What is the make / model of your lens?

Thanks,
Moehliner

amature

03-22-05, 02:32 AM

Thanks for the explanations Ted & Jimmy. It makes sense to me now.

Aussie Bob

03-22-05, 06:39 AM

Take a full-height 16:9 screen and then widen it by 1.33. You get 64:27, or what's called "2.35:1" (actually 2.37:1 if you do the math) = Cinemascope, full height and no black bars, no screen masking required. And the image is brighter and finer in pixel pitch. All-round better.

If you have a 16:9 screen and you want to maintain image height, then you need to replace the screen with one the same height but 1.33 times wider, just like Ted said.

Moe, the lens I have is an evaluation model, not yet on the market. It cost me US$485 (I paid up when the designers said they wanted it back), which is around the ultimate target price. It has plastic optics (they call it "space-age plastic") utilising htree different types of plastic, plus aspheric lenses to achieve the design goals of low lateral chromatic distortion, low distortion, high light transmission and high geometric fidelity. The barrel is also plastic (carbon fiber) in order to keep the weight down.

Sorry, but that's all I can say at the moment until it's released onto the market sometime in 3/4 this year.

mobius

03-22-05, 10:16 AM

So what seems to be the preferred calibration method:

NORMAL + FILTER via Fazz's settings;

NORMAL via the Steve Smallcombe's Secrets of Home Theater review;

or

VIDEO + FILTER via the Cine4home method.

RobZ

03-22-05, 11:43 AM

mobius,
I have tried all of the variations. Personally, I lean towards the Video + Filter, with the Normal + Filter a close second. They both work well. I have also tried the SECRETS settings in Normal and found it to look washed out in my system when compared to the others. I have tried it with and without the filter. They blacks appear grey. Brad Bissel's settings work well.

bradbissell

03-22-05, 12:10 PM

Mobius-
I'm still using the Video + Filter setting. On a whim I went back to Normal with the filter and just didn't like the results as much. Video + filter gives you a much higher constrast ratio.

mobius

03-22-05, 12:37 PM

O.K. thanks, guys.

jasallen

03-22-05, 12:57 PM

I'm going to try this question once more then, I promise, I'll drop it. Has anyone tried, or does anyone have any knowledge regarding: using the Tiffen and/or Coken(sp) 81EF warming filters vs. the B&W and/or Heliopan? I'm thinking I may try one just based on the availability.

Sandwedg

03-22-05, 06:14 PM

B&H Photo's website shows no stock on the 81EF B&W filter, so I called them, and they said they are NOT going to carry it anymore. So I ordered a 81C, which they did have in stock. ( I goofed and ordered the wrong lense - an 81A, which I realized when I got the confirmation email, so I called and that's when he said they would not be reordering any. So I got the 81C which is the next step "lighter". I am shooting on a gray screen, so I'll see what happens).

I'm totally guessing here, but I would think that the "81EF" is like an industry specification, since other manufactures make them. The difference would be in durability, quality, etc... Since you are not a war reporter, the wear n' tear would be low, so I would probably think that another brand would be fine.

jasallen

03-22-05, 06:44 PM

well, I'm ordering the Tiffen guys, I'll report on the quality as soon as I can (though I won't have a basis for comparison with Black&White or Helopad.

Pilfer

03-22-05, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by jasallen
I'm going to try this question once more then, I promise, I'll drop it. Has anyone tried, or does anyone have any knowledge regarding: using the Tiffen and/or Coken(sp) 81EF warming filters vs. the B&W and/or Heliopan? I'm thinking I may try one just based on the availability.

I calibrated my projector with the Coken 81EF last night (still waiting for the Heliopan I have on order). Once I got it adjusted the picture was pretty good. Flat 6500K from 10-100 IRE, slight rise in color temperature at 0 and the Gamma about 2.25. The only issue with this filter seems to be green. In video mode with blue and red contrast at 0 (that red/blue balance was spot on with this filter) I had to take green to -13 contrast. I had noticed that the 81EF is a little wrong for this projector, doesn't take out as much green as it needs to. But I think that the coken my remove even less green than the B+W or Heliopan filters (I have seen their graphs but not that of the coken).

mrjag

03-22-05, 07:15 PM

81EF is the US industry standard and KR6 is the equivalent German standard. You'll see them commonly called 81EF/KR6. There are minor variations between manufacturers but mostly it has to do with durability and optical quality. Most real photographers recommend b+w or heliopan due to their use of high quality glasses.

rwestley

03-22-05, 08:10 PM

It is interesting that B&H will not be carrying the B&H filters anymore.

There must be a problem getting them from germany. I would try to
get the heliopan filter as an alternative.

BajaFishin

03-22-05, 08:42 PM

So does anyone come up with the magic setting and measure its CR yet (I mean besides Brad's setting) ?? For HDMI??

billymac

03-22-05, 10:52 PM

are you kidding me? they're not going to carry them anymore?!

mrjag

03-23-05, 01:01 AM

Can someone with one of the 77mm filters in place measure the width of the rectangle where the image hits the filter?

I recall that the swatch-book samples are just big enough cover the entire image without having to cover the full 77mm lens opening. I'm thinking about grabbing a small sized B+W filter and using an adapter to hold it in place.

Aussie Bob

03-23-05, 01:26 AM

"I had noticed that the 81EF is a little wrong for this projector, doesn't take out as much green as it needs to." - Pilfer.

Which is why I used the Light salmon. More magenta.

Pilfer

03-23-05, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
"I had noticed that the 81EF is a little wrong for this projector, doesn't take out as much green as it needs to." - Pilfer.

Which is why I used the Light salmon. More magenta.

When I looked the graph for that filter it looks as if it takes out more green than blue. Is that noticable in practice?

http://www.ccslightsound.com.au/cgi-bin/cimpublic/retrieve.cgi?catalog_id=1.1.5.1.32&dbname=consumables

Did you try Pale gold amber 009?

http://www.ccslightsound.com.au/cgi-bin/cimpublic/retrieve.cgi?catalog_id=1.1.5.1.6&dbname=consumables

rwestley

03-23-05, 08:15 AM

Adorama in NY is still taking orders on B+W & Helopan filters. It might be worth a call to see when they are coming in. If you can't wait they have the Tiffen filter in stock.

http://www.adorama.com/TF7781EF.html

I guess the AE700 owners bought all the filters that were in stock out.

mrjag

03-23-05, 10:33 AM

The Pale Gold Amber 009 is the closest thing to the 81EF in the Lee Filters lineup.

jasallen

03-23-05, 10:39 AM

Unfortunately, Adorama is out of stock of Tiffens now as well :(

Now I REALLY don't know where to go!

I have asked them by email to tell me what the ETAs of the various brands are.

rwestley

03-23-05, 11:10 AM

Try this link. The say the Tiffen is in stock. If this does not work I would
search google for the manufactures and call them to find out who has them in stock. Good Luck.

http://focuscamera.com/sc/froogle-lead-1.asp?id=843345513&rf=froogle&dfdate=03_22_2005&sid=52118741

You could also call Tiffen at

1-800-645-2522 to find out who has it in stock.

jasallen

03-23-05, 11:26 AM

Thanks rwestley!

They have 'em -- order while they last!!!

jasallen

03-23-05, 11:40 AM

Since I have ordered the Tiffen and its immediately available to my anxious little hands, I will throw this one out if someone else wants to try it.

Pictureline.com claims to have the B&W (non MRC) shipping in 3-5 days, this contrasts with other items they have listed as "in stock", so I'm not sure exactly what that means, if everyone else has to wait 4-6 weeks for out-of-stock inventory they may be full of it, but it couldn't hurt someone to call them.

Who knows, maybe they have a secondary warehouse somewhere, though I suspect its more likely they are counting on an in-country distributor to be stocking them. If that's the case, I suspect their distributor will disappoint them.

ricardofelisbert

03-23-05, 12:20 PM

I've been away for a while, and i would like to know if you consider safe to buy the ae700 now regarding the 'white flash' issue ?

bradsears

03-23-05, 12:31 PM

The white flash issue is fixed as of the latest firmware update.

yzurdiaga

03-23-05, 02:31 PM

Have fun with the HDMI. For me, it meant a visible jump in better blacks and less noise of several types. However what I'll call graininess went up too. Easily cured with calibration of the 5 basics. Still have great contrast.

Shaddow

03-23-05, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by jasallen

Pictureline.com claims to have the B&W (non MRC) shipping in 3-5 days, this contrasts with other items they have listed as "in stock", so I'm not sure exactly what that means, if everyone else has to wait 4-6 weeks for out-of-stock inventory they may be full of it, but it couldn't hurt someone to call them.

Who knows, maybe they have a secondary warehouse somewhere, though I suspect its more likely they are counting on an in-country distributor to be stocking them. If that's the case, I suspect their distributor will disappoint them.

Yea, I called them on Friday and they said they would just be getting them from B+W, and that was the expected time. So it sounds like they would get them from the same place (with the same delays) as everyone else.

s7umks

03-23-05, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by jasallen
well, I'm ordering the Tiffen guys, I'll report on the quality as soon as I can (though I won't have a basis for comparison with Black&White or Helopad.

I went to B&H and they are stocking the B+W KR6 filters in larger sizes. For example, I was able to purchase am 82mm B+W KR6. You then buy a $10 77mm to 82mm adapter and you are good to go.

I hope that helps those that are trying to get B+W KR6 filters.

Cheers,
Mark

jturner_1968

03-23-05, 07:14 PM

Do Brads settings work with both the b+w and the heliopan filters or just the b+w? Is there any difference in the filters? Thanks.

rwestley

03-23-05, 08:53 PM

The settings for the B+W and Heliopan should be the same. There may, however, be slight differences from different manufactures. The best thing is try Brad Bissell's settings and make the changes that give you the best picture.

I would also guess that from reading many of the last few posts that the B+W and Heliopan filters are out of stock at the US distributors. B&H
told me that they come from Germany and it can take up to 4 weeks. It is also possible that B+W is out of stock of these filters in Germany. What does surprise me is how few stores carry them. The best thing to do would be to call the distributors.

canthony15

03-23-05, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by s7umks
I went to B&H and they are stocking the B+W KR6 filters in larger sizes. For example, I was able to purchase am 82mm B+W KR6. You then buy a $10 77mm to 82mm adapter and you are good to go.

I hope that helps those that are trying to get B+W KR6 filters.

Cheers,
Mark

Great idea. I just ordered the 72 mm with a 77-72 step down ring. I checked the lense and the image only occupies the center 60% or so of the overall diameter. A tenth of an inch on each side (5 mm is about 2 tenths of an inch) isn't going to make any difference. Thanks.

Pilfer

03-23-05, 10:53 PM

I've just put together a spread sheet and started putting in all the filters
I could find. I know it's been tried by Brad and he said the 81EF gives better contrast ratios but the CC30R looks closer to being the right filter. Anyone else tried it? It seems spot on for green though it doesn't quite reduce blue by enough, but more so than the 81EF. Also I found a Rosco light filter that is almost spot on. Here are the numbers of various filters if anyone is interested.

First the target (based on what cine4home said the colors needed to be reduced by. The wavelengths are B 450, G 550, R 670, also from cine4home)
B 38.4%
G 48%
R 100%

Filters (renormalised with red 100% for easy comparison, red loss listed after)

Tiffen 81EF (couldn't find B+W and Heliopan graph seems a bit inaccurate)
B 54.9%
G 76.8%
R 100%
Loss 18%

Lee 109 Light Salmon
B 54.9%
G 44%
R 100%
Loss 9% (19%?)

Lee 004
B 47.25
G 44%
R 100%
Loss 9%
(slightly over filters green so probably an extra 10% loss or red to correct this)

Rosco 4630
B 33.7%
G 44%
R 100%
Loss 14% (24% ?)
(slightly over filters blue and green so probably an extra 10% loss or red to correct this)

Kodak CC30R
B 49%
G 49%
R 100%
Loss 9.4%

yzurdiaga

03-24-05, 12:49 AM

In Service Mode the gridline display the lines are not solid white. There's a bit of magenta/red on one side and green on the right - white in the middle.

Also, in the crosshairs display, I also noticed that switching from red to blue to green made the lines move a bit, so they weren't on-center with each other.

Normal? Calibration needed? How do I get it done or do it myself?

I've done the Avia disc 5 basics, and accessing the service menu I've done, but there doesn't seem to be an item for alignment - assuming that's what's needed here.

Would appreciate some advice.

Woof Woof

03-24-05, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by yzurdiaga
In Service Mode the gridline display the lines are not solid white. There's a bit of magenta/red on one side and green on the right - white in the middle.

Also, in the crosshairs display, I also noticed that switching from red to blue to green made the lines move a bit, so they weren't on-center with each other.

Normal? Calibration needed? How do I get it done or do it myself?

I've done the Avia disc 5 basics, and accessing the service menu I've done, but there doesn't seem to be an item for alignment - assuming that's what's needed here.

Would appreciate some advice.

This sounds like misconvergence which is going to be an issue with 3 panels (either LCD, DLP or LCOS).

To minimize this, you could try reducing the zoom, and/or lens shift.

rwestley

03-24-05, 06:30 AM

I just found through Google this German Page (Translated) using the CC30R filter with the AE700 After you read the resultes go to the bottom of the page and see resultes Einerm 81ER fliter. Very interesting pictures on page two.

Be sure to try the animation on page two.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.matuschek.net/projektor-tuning/ptae700-2.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcc30R%2Bfilters%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D% 26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-50,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN

On the Left go to Heimkino (Home Cinema) to see the first page and more
information.

dshmel

03-24-05, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Woof Woof
This sounds like misconvergence which is going to be an issue with 3 panels (either LCD, DLP or LCOS).

To minimize this, you could try reducing the zoom, and/or lens shift.

The convergence of my first panny was off by about a pixel on the red. This was quite noticable and created red drop shadows around white obects. It also had a dead pixel. I returned the unit for another. The replacement unit has no dead pixels :) and has a panel misalignment of only 1/4 pixel. Based on what I have read, if you can keep the alignment within a half pixel or less, then you will not notice during normal (non-test pattern) viewing.

yzurdiaga

03-24-05, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by dshmel
The convergence of my first panny was off by about a pixel on the red. This was quite noticable and created red drop shadows around white obects. It also had a dead pixel. I returned the unit for another. The replacement unit has no dead pixels :) and has a panel misalignment of only 1/4 pixel. Based on what I have read, if you can keep the alignment within a half pixel or less, then you will not notice during normal (non-test pattern) viewing.

Thanks. It's more than a pixel. Plus the prob is more right/left than up/down, tho there's almost no lens shift l/r. Some u/d, but less than 50% of the joystick. None thru the menu.

The pattern seems to coincide with the green pallor on the right side of people's faces, eg. I'll look more closely for the red.

There always has been a noticable drop shadow around white figures on a black background. Not distracting, but there if looked for. Related? Normal?

jasallen

03-24-05, 09:33 AM

Well, sigh, focusCamera lied to me directly over the phone and said 'yes, that's in stock'... This morning I got a note "sorry not in stock".

This is getting tiresome. If you guys just didn't sound so damn CONVINCING in extolling the virtues of the filter I wouldn't be so damned obsessed -- In other words, it's your fault, everyone here :-)

Come to think of it, it really is your fault, you guys are the ones who bought up the inventory!!!

;-)

jmatt

03-24-05, 09:43 AM

Just want to confirm something on the filters. the 81EF is the type of filter, so regardless of the brand, the settings should work on all 81EF filters? Thanks

jasallen

03-24-05, 09:46 AM

That's the primary theory, jmatt. Although I'm not aware of anyone who has done side-by-side with different brands, everyone with any 81EF filter who uses Brad Bissels settings (with some personalization) has said they were happy.

dapdrums

03-24-05, 11:37 AM

Could someone tell me what these settings change/do in the EXT OPTION ( press OSD for 4 seconds) mode.

FREEZE MSG OFF
PIC.SHIFT ON
RUNTIME PRT ON
FAN FULL MODE OFF
525i LEVEL C
625I LEVEL C

Thanks.

kalon74

03-24-05, 11:59 AM

Well after some discussion in this thread, I called B&H to change from the MRC filter to the non-MRC version. I also hoped the non-MRC would have a shorter lead time as B&H told me to expect delivery in 4 weeks. Much to my surprise, my filter had shipped that day and will be here today. All of you looking for the MRC version may want to give B&H a call and see if they have any more.

My question is, how do you clean the projector lens and the filter so you don't have any dust trapped between them once you screw on the filter? I'm assuming compressed air but I wanted to check.

Mike

rwestley

03-24-05, 02:49 PM

I know it must be frustrating for those who have not found the filter in stock and have been lied to by certain camera stores. I live in the NY area and B&H has the best reputation with professional photographers. I would call them and ask them what the story is on getting the filters. Let them know what you are using them for and see if they can help. If anyone can get them they can. Another alternative would be to call the companies and see if they have them in stock and where they can be purchased from.

jasallen

03-24-05, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by s7umks
I went to B&H and they are stocking the B+W KR6 filters in larger sizes. For example, I was able to purchase am 82mm B+W KR6. You then buy a $10 77mm to 82mm adapter and you are good to go.

I hope that helps those that are trying to get B+W KR6 filters.

Cheers,
Mark

Brilliant sir... After I got screwed on the Tiffen, again, I immediately followed your lead, and due to my extreme impatience requested overnight shipping (I know stupid, but whatever) so I'll have it tomorrow!!!!

Thanks again Mark

edit:spelling

romanesq

03-24-05, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by rwestley
I know it must be frustrating for those who have not found the filter in stock and have been lied to by certain camera stores. I live in the NY area and B&H has the best reputation with professional photographers. I would call them and ask them what the story is on getting the filters. Let them know what you are using them for and see if they can help. If anyone can get them they can. Another alternative would be to call the companies and see if they have them in stock and where they can be purchased from.

Hey I popped into the B&H Store and asked for the B+W KR6 77mm. Since they didn't have it, I asked for the 82mm with the adaptor. The guy was going through the system and he said they had just one, a Tiffin and it was the last one.

So I took it. That was like at 3:15 today. I don't know how someone said there were more B+W KR6 lenses at the larger size.

I've installed the Tiffin now and played around with the settings. It does an across the board improvement in the contrast it seems from my limited viewing. I looked a bit at Pulp Fiction I recorded in HD and some other HD programming on Alaska and stuff.

The lens seems to add an across the board contrast and also a sharpness akin to those amber type sunglasses everyone used to check out.

So far, I'd say I like this lens and hope to just leave my settings and viewing now in the adjusted video mode.

Good weekend to all.:p

tvted

03-24-05, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Pilfer
I've just put together a spread sheet and started putting in all the filters
I could find. I know it's been tried by Brad and he said the 81EF gives better contrast ratios but the CC30R looks closer to being the right filter. Anyone else tried it? It seems spot on for green though it doesn't quite reduce blue by enough, but more so than the 81EF. Also I found a Rosco light filter that is almost spot on. Here are the numbers of various filters if anyone is interested.

Good research, thanks for that.
It would be interesting to see a spectrum graph from the UHP bulb that ships with the 700. I'm aware this would change over time and that it would not be exactly true for each bulb but it would be interesting, nonetheless, to try and "invert" the spectrum. The Rosco looks interesting.

Its been my plan from the start to calibrate with a CC30R and today I finally got around to ordering SMART III, so with luck I might be able to have an opinion in 3 weeks or so.

ted

Pilfer

03-24-05, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by tvted
Good research, thanks for that.
It would be interesting to see a spectrum graph from the UHP bulb that ships with the 700. I'm aware this would change over time and that it would not be exactly true for each bulb but it would be interesting, nonetheless, to try and "invert" the spectrum. The Rosco looks interesting.

Its been my plan from the start to calibrate with a CC30R and today I finally got around to ordering SMART III, so with luck I might be able to have an opinion in 3 weeks or so.

ted

Yes, I'd like to do something similar to that. My Smart III arrived a few days ago but I won't get a chance to do any more with it til Tuesday as I am staying the the girlfriend's place over easter.

The cine4home correction values were based on what the output in video mode. The LCD panels and light output from the bulb are the same no mater what mode the projector is in, just default changes are made to gamma, bias, gain, etc, etc, behind the scenes. I'd like to max out (and also out of interest minimise) the output of each color and just see what the "native" balance is. Given those values, grab a filter that corrects for them. That hopefully will give the full usable range of each panel without having to waste contrast correcting the color balance by more than necessary.

Oh well, will be a slow process given the limited time I get to work on it. Hmmm, maybe I should stage a fight with the girlfriend.... ;)

tvted

03-24-05, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Pilfer

I'd like to max out (and also out of interest minimise) the output of each color and just see what the "native" balance is. Given those values, grab a filter that corrects for them. That hopefully will give the full usable range of each panel without having to waste contrast correcting the color balance by more than necessary.

Exactly my plan - treat it as though it were a prototype that I have to max of the primaries. Probably a waste of time but what the heck. I've toyed with eyeballing it in NORMAL (which is already high output) with a cc30r sample and the amps seem to have a lot of overhead left in them before they tap out. The theory is after all to boost where possible to get more balanced operation from the amps.

Hmmm, maybe I should stage a fight with the girlfriend.... ;)

Well - sometimes you *are* called to duty beyond what is expected of you.
I believe there are medals awarded for such valour.;)

ted

JimP

03-25-05, 12:19 AM

Pilfer

Regarding the girlfriend thingy,

You just gotta do what you gotta do. lol

My ex girlfriend wouldn't let me watch SciFi and I had all the "Law and Order" episodes anyone should have to watch in 3 lifetimes. Out with the old, in with the new. Now I can watch anything I want. ;-)

jasallen

03-25-05, 08:53 AM

Regarding the 82mm at B&H. I ordered online so your store itself may not have had inventory. Otherwise, if they sold out after I posted my message thanking s7umks, well all I can say is ..

"I got mine" :-)

Arrives today, I'm also putting my masking system on my screen today, tomorrow should be a VERY good day for movies :-D

Fezmid

03-25-05, 11:52 AM

There by any chance a cliffnotes version of this thread? 70 pages is quite the thread! :)

CW

dapdrums

03-25-05, 11:59 AM

Yes, the "thread" has become a "bedspread" LOL

03-25-05, 12:22 PM

Just a recommendation, can we hold off posting all this noise about "I got mine" filters.... Since this is a tweek thread lets post once we have used the filters and have something to report.

romanesq

03-25-05, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by jasallen
Regarding the 82mm at B&H. I ordered online so your store itself may not have had inventory. Otherwise, if they sold out after I posted my message thanking s7umks, well all I can say is ..

"I got mine" :-)

Arrives today, I'm also putting my masking system on my screen today, tomorrow should be a VERY good day for movies :-D

Hey that's great. Good luck with the project completion. I installed the 82mm Tiffen last night with the adaptor which is simple and used the video settings folks here have mentioned.

I enjoyed watching an HD broadcast of Pulp Fiction I recorded and thought the additional contrast was far better than I had hoped. I didn't realize that it would improve the picture throughout. I had imagined it would aid in the edges of the picture where colors differed. I had no idea it would be across the board.

Last night watching the college basketball tournament was great. The last game down to the wire between Arizona and Oklahoma looked terrific. I found myself watching a close ball game with minutes left saying, that picture is just amazing.

Someone referenced an early German review of the projector and the benefit of a filter. I have to say after several hours of viewing, it's absolutely correct.

Good luck to those who are planning on installing the filter. It really does improve contrast quite well.:p

suffolk112000

03-25-05, 12:27 PM

Is anyone using these filters inside a hush box?
My AE-700 will be inside a sealed hush box and shining through two pieces of glass and if I add the filter, there will be a third piece of glass to shine through. Anyone doing this or having success with this?

Craig :)

jasallen

03-25-05, 12:53 PM

DM

While I thought the "I got mine" was a funny way to say it, the fact is I've been posting for days to let people know what my experience of stock was, and that was just my ATTEMPT at cleverly communicating that, as of yesterday, order the 82mm from BH online was successful, as confirmed by my rush delivery being here! This contrasted with the member who had gone to the storefront. Until someone else confirms that BH online is OUT of them, I think that my input may have been useful to someone. but, hey, whatever.

suffolk

Just a wild suggestion here, but what if you got the cokin square filter and replaced one of you pieces of glass with that? Though I doubt its a concern either way, that might be the most "graceful" solution.

VornHune

03-25-05, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by jasallen
DM

suffolk

Just a wild suggestion here, but what if you got the cokin square filter and replaced one of you pieces of glass with that? Though I doubt its a concern either way, that might be the most "graceful" solution.

That idea may also give him the option of adjusting the projector position such that he can leave room on the filter to move the image to, if he experiences filter degradation over time.

Nate

On another note: Is it just me, or does the projector just look more badass with the filter on? Like some sort of cyclopean version of the terminator shades...

suffolk112000

03-25-05, 02:24 PM

jasallen and VornHune, Thanks for your input. :)
How big is the square filter? Do all the filter companies that sell the 77mm 81EF warming filter and the 77mm KR6 also sell them in a square version?

Craig

jasallen

03-25-05, 02:49 PM

I think that no, only a couple companies sell square versions, cokin for sure, and I think Kodak, probably a few others, though I've not seen a B&W or Heliopan listed personally.

I've seen listed at least 3x3 and 6x6. Search BHPhoto.com and Adorama.com and see what they have for starters.

jasallen

03-25-05, 03:12 PM

Just an FYI folks, from the B&W handbook available at SchniederOptics.com:

...transmission loss for both uncoated surfaces together amounts to only 8%...

...with normal single-layer coatings the loss of transmission for both surfaces on average amounts to 3% , whereas with more complex multiple coatings it amounts to a mere 0.5%...

...All B&W color filters for color- and black-and-white photography...normally have single-layer coatings...

This information is what lead me to believe it just wasn't worthwhile to go MRC.

MRC also helps image ghosting, but remember, for our purposes the light filtered is already focused, ghosting is largely an artifact of light coming in from infinite different angles and an image being "caught" at the filter surface.

AVWH

03-25-05, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by suffolk112000
Is anyone using these filters inside a hush box?
My AE-700 will be inside a sealed hush box and shining through two pieces of glass and if I add the filter, there will be a third piece of glass to shine through. Anyone doing this or having success with this?

Craig :)

My AE700 is so quiet, I can't imagine needing a "hush box", unless it's more to "hide" the unit, or "seal" it from dust (but then you have airflow issues, I'd think), than to dampen noise.

Shaddow

03-25-05, 07:03 PM

I find that with the b+w 81ef filter on and using the Dynamic mode, the contrast seems to be greater than video mode. Does anyone have the tweaks for this mode + filter?

Also, using brad's setting, and I don't know if it's just me since I've never had a 6500k calibrated display before, but while moving video looks great colorwise, the menus on my Samsung 360 DirectvHD rec seem a bit more purple than blue when set to "Summer" as the color scheme. Anyone else seeing something similar?

rwestley

03-25-05, 09:54 PM

"transmission loss for both uncoated surfaces together amounts to only 8%...

...with normal single-layer coatings the loss of transmission for both surfaces on average amounts to 3% , whereas with more complex multiple coatings it amounts to a mere 0.5%...

...All B&W color filters for color- and black-and-white photography...normally have single-layer coatings...

This information is what lead me to believe it just wasn't worthwhile to go MRC.

MRC also helps image ghosting, but remember, for our purposes the light filtered is already focused, ghosting is largely an artifact of light coming in from infinite different angles and an image being "caught" at the filter surface."

Jassalen, that is what I was told by a very good sales person at B&H
photo. He also told me that it was a waste of money to get the MRC version for use on a projector. The harder glass and the MRC coatings are not necessary for our type of use.

Just another thought, if you are waiting for a B+W filter why not call Schneider optics to see when they will be back in stock in the US. I would bet that B&H photo will be the first to get them since they are the number one professional dealer in the US.

mrjag

03-26-05, 02:02 AM

See my old post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5333256#post5333256) for a graph showing the transmission loss between uncoated, single-layer, and multi-layer coatings.

Gn0m4

03-26-05, 04:46 AM

Pana700 + Filter Heliopan + HTPC + Wall 3,20m=

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/7687/dsc005685xs.jpg

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/5295/dsc005660dv.jpg

Regards.

JimP

03-26-05, 06:43 AM

Gn0m4

Beautiful eyes.

Jennifer Lopez???

degas

03-26-05, 06:47 AM

JimP: It's Colin Farell.

...and probably A. Jolie...;)

JimP

03-26-05, 06:50 AM

Degas
Thanks. I haven't woken up good. Does look like Angelina Jo Lee (sp?)

But I can still spot a set of beautiful eyes through my non fully awake ones. Can't spell worth a flip though. lol

djbluemax1

03-26-05, 07:31 PM

Well, here's a bit of an update with regards to my free filter tweaking attempts. It's taken longer than I thought and I still haven't completed my research yet.

First off, the equipment I'm using:
AE700U (of course) with 300 hours on the bulb in low mode.
Denon 2910 (black output set to Normal, 7.5IRE)
via HDMI
106" Da Lite High Power
calibrations with Smart III ver2.0 and Avia disc

The first thing I should note is that I really should have tried this when I had Colorfacts. It would have been a lot easier and faster. I didn't realize just how many measurement runs I would end up having to make and as I said, I still haven't completed my research yet. I thought I could use some shortcuts, but it turns out that the shortcuts didn't work too well.

Methodology:

A projector's contrast ratio is obviously the difference between its maximum light output at 100IRE and its lowest output at 0IRE hopefully/optimally at D65 throughout.

There are basically two ways to filter tweak a projector. One is to measure the default modes at default settings to find the one with the highest contrast and a decent gamma curve and to see if there is a spectral irregularity with the output (like the red deficiency of UHP bulbs). Then find a filter that closely attenuates the irregularities in that mode and finish off by tweaking the settings to get as close to D65 as possible and retain a decent gamma curve.

The alternative method is to try tweaking all the primaries so they are completely maxed at either end for highest output at 100IRE and lowest at 0IRE and then try to find a filter that can attenuate these maxed out figures.

What I tried is method 2 and it requires far more work than method 1. I first began with the 3 brightest modes, Video, Normal and Dynamic. Since I wanted to tweak for maximum contrast, I figured I could just skip the initial step of measuring the default settings of the modes and go straight to measuring all the different color temperature settings of each of the three modes with the RGB contrast maximized and the RGB brightness minimized. with the Smart III system, that meant taking 33 individual readings (11 readings from 0-100IRE for R, G and B) for each color temp setting at 5 settings for each of the 3 modes. Yup, 495 individual measurements with some measurments taking up to 30-45 seconds to settle.

After tabulating all the measurment runs with Smart III, I then analyzed each of the 15 runs to find the highest RGB output at 100IRE and the lowest output at 0IRE. I also looked at the gamma curves and the color balance to see which setting in which mode offered the best opportunity for filtering.

What I found was that the color temp settings made some significant changes to the RGB output and the way the changes were made differed between the modes and between the color temp settings. The results were not linear and made my task quite a bit more difficult. I also discovered some weird gamma curves in the different modes, with Dynamic showing some of the worst gamma curves as noted before.

Realizing that the non-linearity meant I needed more info I then ended up having to make the measurement runs at the default settings too, just to see what the default gamma curves and color distribution looked like in comparison and with these I was able to begin to see how maxing the primaries affected the color distribution and the gamma curves. After taking all these measurments it showed that Dynamic mode has the highest default contrast and brightness but the color balance was terrible and none of the color settings could help. Depending on the color temp, different primaries were already maxed out making it very difficult to achieve a smooth gamma curve or uniform color balance/imbalance. I tried, but as yet haven't been able to tame the Dynamic mode.

After more experimentation (I had been using low lamp mode for the extended lamp life) I tried a few measurments with High lamp mode and found a significant jump in contrast. High lamp mode not only increases the headroom of all the primaries at 100IRE, it inexplicably results in lower 0IRE readings with all other settings being the same except for the lamp mode. I can't understand this but after taking readings again and again, the results were continually repeated. High lamp mode allows the primaries to be maxed up to 25% more and also seems to lower the lowest output by a fraction at 0IRE. Great, now I had to make the measurement runs all over again. I had also started out measuring with Dynamic Iris off, but was now measuring with DI: On to take into account the changes it made to the gamma curves. I discovered that at low lamp mode gamma at the higher IRE's was already deficient. There simply isn't enough headroom at higher IRE's for low lamp mode so if you want maximum contrast, you have to use High lamp mode.

I concentrated on the next brightest mode Normal, since I had already tweaked Video mode with the Lee #152 Pale Gold filter. Finally after trying quite a few different advanced settings and setting changes with the different color temps, I managed to tweak Normal at color temp +2 to a point where it was even enough to filter. For a mode and setting to be optimal for filtering, It needs to have an even color imbalance across the IRE range and a good gamma curve. If I tried to filter a mode that had a 40% blue push at 0IRE, 10% blue push at 40 IRE and 25% at 100IRE, no matter what filter I used, some part of the IRE range would be off (and yes, many modes and color temps exhibited this uneven color imbalance).

Well, after tweaking all the settings I looked for a filter that could tweak out 25% G and 20%B. The Roscolux #4815 CalColor 15 Pink looked like a perfect match and when I tried it, the color balance was pretty much tuned across the board.

My settings with this filter,

Roscolux #4815 CalColor 15 Pink

Lamp: High

Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Color -9
Tint +2
Sharpness -6

Color Temperature: +2
Dynamic Iris: On

Advanced Settings:

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: -1
Gamma Low: -1
Contrast Red: 5
Contrast Green: 2
Contrast Blue: 1
Brightness Red: -16
Brightness Green: -7
Brightness Blue: -16

At these settings, both R and B primaries were completely maxed out at 100 IRE. Another thing to note is that the RGB brightness settings will continue to decrease light output at 0IRE (and across all other IRE's too) all the way down to the -16 setting. While the -16 setting can result in a fourfold reduction of output at 0IRE, the 0 setting does NOT result in a fourfold increase in output at 100IRE. The difference in light output from 0 to -16 RGB Brightness setting only decreases output at 100IRE to about 80% but at 0IRE, it decreases it to 25%. This of course increases the CR a substantial amount. The green settings though were set to even the color imbalance to 25% across the board. While the -16 G setting would have lowered the readings at 0IRE, they would have caused a marked lack of green all the way up to 50IRE. Lowering the Gamma Low setting decreased the 0-30IRE measurements by close to 30% and lowering the Gamma Mid helped even out the gamma curve so it wasn't deficient at the 70-100IRE range the way it is with either the default settings or ANY low lamp setting I measured. Lowering Gamma Mid and Low doesn't change the gamma at the higher IREs.

The gamma curve is decent but not as smooth as I would like it. as I mentioned earlier, I'm still not done. there are a few things I intend to try to see if there is any possibility at all of tweaking Dynamic mode. and given enough time, I intend to revisit Video mode to see what else is possible there. Each of the different modes has a tendency to max out a different primary sooner than the others. Red is still the limiting factor but with different color temp settings, this can change to Green or Blue, so when I find more time, I'm going to try more tweaking.

Oh, and the CR? 2350:1 rounded off down.

jasallen

03-27-05, 10:35 AM

Ok, I'm up and operational with my B&W 82mm + adapter.

First off, I did bradBissel's setting but without the Brightness adjustment, and it was dead nuts perfect right off according to Avia and DVE. I have a grey screen so I think that may account for the brightness settings, although, honestly, as I moved back and forth with them on and off with the test patterns on, the difference was negligible.

I don't know if you could call the black inky.. but wow! nonetheless. With no light source, other than the projector, the black, even the letterboxes which I've always had MAJOR problems with are actually darker than the walls in my room that are painted a darker grey than the screen (the walls end up with a small amount of reflected light FROM the screen). I can only assume this is due to some fancy optical properties of my goo screen, since you'd think even barring direct "bad blacks" light it would still have to contend with the same reflected light. The other thing about blacks is they are the right color!!!! strange as that sounds they are not a blue-ish black anymore they are a REAL BLACK or um, really really dark grey. Blacks are REALLY impressive, and really change the way I feel about a projector I already loved.

Colors are really kewl too. They ALL seem more brilliant, even blue. This seemed really strange to me since I'm filtering out some blue, but then I realized I am on a higher output mode; The new settings allow the blue panel to be more fully opened; and with no blue cast everywhere, the "blue contrast" is better -- ok, granted the blue cast was "adjusted out" of bright colors even before, but the closer the pic when to 0 IRE the more the blue black dampened the experience. So now, everything REALLY pops. I can honestly say I didn't know before what people meant by 3D, I've never even been to a commercial theatre that gave that impression (or a DLP: I'm really sensitive to screen door so not only other LCDs but even DLPs bug me, which is why I stayed on the PJ fence til this one came out). OT: rainbows bug me a little too, but for me its on par with the FPN of this PJ, so I would call that a wash.

For me in my living room setup, the only issue is that I have less overall light output for when there is a need for dealing with ambient light. I liked to switch to Dynamic when watching some of the Girlfriends stuff or other stuff I didn't care about great colors for -- with the lights on, while I read this forum or someing :-D I can still do that, but it's not quite as bright as it used to be.

Any camera folks out there wanna tell me if there is some sort of "quick release" I could add to the filter since threading it is too delicate an operation to install and remove at a whim.

Ok, thanks for letting me gush! Happy Easter Movies :-)

csedaniel

03-27-05, 04:33 PM

djbluemax1,

Will you please post your full calibrated(0IRE-100IRE) greyscale and gamma curves?

Thanks

tvted

03-28-05, 12:32 AM

djbluemax1,
Perhaps I overlooked it (getting old and withered yah know :( ) - what was your gamma measurement and have you considered 2.5 as a target?
2.5 is reference for DVD's - there are threads hereabouts discussing this so I was wondering....

Hope to join some of your endeavors when my copy of SMART arrives - but of course being of fundamentally lazy disposition I might just plagiarize your settings. ;)

ted

djbluemax1

03-28-05, 02:50 AM

My measured gamma was 2.20 but I don't know how to post the grayscale and gamma curves.

beocop

03-28-05, 09:58 AM

djbluemax1,

I don't remember reading about your calibration findings with the Lee #152 pale gold filter using VIDEO mode. Is VIDEO mode using Lee #152 filter better than NORMAL mode with Roscolux #4518 filter? Can you post your findings and observations (settings and result contrast ratio) when using VIDEO mode and Lee #152. I thought filter +VIDEO mode would give a contrast ratio of ~2000:1. Your discover of NORMAL + filter and a contrast ratio of 2350:1 is AMAZING!

BTW, How dim is the picture in NORMAL vs VIDEO (both with filters and high lamp)?

Thanks,

beocop

suffolk112000

03-28-05, 01:48 PM

OK... I just ordered this filter... is this the right one.
They tell me it is a two or three week delay.

B+W Price : $ 45.50

Shipping Cost

77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion Glass Filter

Mfr # 65073766 • B&H # BWKR677
Availability : Out of Stock

Thanks for the re-assurance. :)

Craig

canthony15

03-28-05, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by djbluemax1
While the -16 setting can result in a fourfold reduction of output at 0IRE, the 0 setting does NOT result in a fourfold increase in output at 100IRE. The difference in light output from 0 to -16 RGB Brightness setting only decreases output at 100IRE to about 80% but at 0IRE, it decreases it to 25%.

I have been thinking about this. Isn't this pretty much what you would expect based on the gamma curve? At the bottom of the gamma curve, a small change in IRE produces a large change in output. At High IRE the same change produces a much smaller change in output. Actually, I might have expected an even bigger difference, like 7 or 8 to 1 for a gamma of 2.2. Am I all wet?

Tony

VornHune

03-28-05, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by suffolk112000
OK... I just ordered this filter... is this the right one.
They tell me it is a two or three week delay.

B+W Price : $ 45.50

Shipping Cost

77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion Glass Filter

Mfr # 65073766 • B&H # BWKR677
Availability : Out of Stock

Thanks for the re-assurance. :)

Craig

Item Qty Item Description
BWKR677 1 77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion Glass Fi

Consider yourself re-assured.

Senator

03-28-05, 07:31 PM

Hi

which of these two filters should I order?

HEL3060.1077 Heliopan KR6 (81EF) $96.96
HEL3560.1077 Heliopan KR6 (81EF)SMC $144.30

Prices are New Zealand dollars, not US

Thanks

Sen

Shaddow

03-28-05, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Shaddow
I find that with the b+w 81ef filter on and using the Dynamic mode, the contrast seems to be greater than video mode. Does anyone have the tweaks for this mode + filter?

Also, using brad's setting, and I don't know if it's just me since I've never had a 6500k calibrated display before, but while moving video looks great colorwise, the menus on my Samsung 360 DirectvHD rec seem a bit more purple than blue when set to "Summer" as the color scheme. Anyone else seeing something similar?

I finally figured out my problem, I ran my DVD player through the samsung 360 and it upconverted to 1080i and I was able to run avia there and once that was done, everything looked right. Either the dvd player's color was too high, or the HD receiver's color is too low.

If anyone wants to see screenshots check out my member gallery.

rwestley

03-28-05, 09:25 PM

The cheaper filter should be fine. The more expensive one is multicoated which I don't think is necessary for projection. The regular one is still coated.

djbluemax1

03-28-05, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by beocop
djbluemax1,

I don't remember reading about your calibration findings with the Lee #152 pale gold filter using VIDEO mode. Is VIDEO mode using Lee #152 filter better than NORMAL mode with Roscolux #4518 filter? Can you post your findings and observations (settings and result contrast ratio) when using VIDEO mode and Lee #152. I thought filter +VIDEO mode would give a contrast ratio of ~2000:1. Your discover of NORMAL + filter and a contrast ratio of 2350:1 is AMAZING!

BTW, How dim is the picture in NORMAL vs VIDEO (both with filters and high lamp)?

Thanks,

beocop

Well, after filter tweaking the Video mode, I was watching with the tweaked Video mode as-is on my Da-Lite High Power. It was quite a lot brighter than the Natural mode which I had gotten used to. After tweaking the Normal mode though I ended up adding an ND1 filter to reduce the light output by 1 f-stop because I found it a bit too bright. The Smart calculated ft-lamberts for my screen ended up at 34.6 so I added the ND filter to bring it to just a bit over 15 ft-lamberts.

canthony15,

Well, a difference of about 4:1 was what I observed at 0 IRE, but then again, someone mentioned in another thread somewhere that the Extech 403125 meter that comes with the Smart package might not be very accurate below 2 lux, so all my findings are subject to the accuracy of the meter and the system.

One other important thing to note is that it seems from reading all the different posts on calibration and measurements from different AE700 owners, results might differ substantially from PJ to PJ. So my posted settings with the filter I used may not work for someone else. In Tom Huffman's thread AE700 Colorfacts and me, his color balance charts for Normal color temp 0 and -1 are not the same as mine. So not only are there variations in overall RGB intensity from PJ to PJ, there also seems to be a possibility for significant differences in intensity levels between the primaries at the same setting for 2 different PJs.

What this alludes to is that especially when owners are trying to tweak for maximum contrast and really trying to max the primaries to get every last bit of performance out, results obtained may actually be substantially different at the limit. So although posted settings and filter combinations can be a good place to start for novices, as some members have already discovered, using someone else's settings may result in something looking too green, and the settings to max out my primaries may not max out someone else's, or they may be too high and already clipping a particular primary.

I guess what this all boils down to is, people can use these posts as a starting point and see if these settings might look close enough with their PJs, but to get the most out of it, an owner should get some sort of calibration system beyond just an Avia or DVE disc. Whether it's buying the Smart system or renting Colorfacts for close to $300 or even buying Colorfacts or Opticone for more than the cost of the PJ (unless you're just an uninhibited tweakaholic, buying Colorfacts or OpticOne is probably only for those who would like to go into ISF calibrating).

Sodbuster

03-29-05, 02:03 AM

My filter arrived today (I took the advice to buy the 82mm size and get the $10 adapter).

I used Brad Bissell's settings for the video mode, and used Avia to set black and white levels, and saturation and hue.

With no further fuss, I sat back to watch Legends of the Fall . I completely forgot about the technology and just enjoyed the beautiful cinematography.

My screen is a 10-ft (H) StudioTek 130 in a dedicated room.

I would llike to express my thanks to the many participants of the AVS forum whose enthusiasm for the AE700 and suggestions for optimizing its picture have made it possible for me to vastly improve the picture in my HT without ever leaving my house to do my own research! And for achieving this wonderful result without breaking the bank.

suffolk112000

03-29-05, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by VornHune
Item Qty Item Description
BWKR677 1 77mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion Glass Fi

Consider yourself re-assured.

VornHune,

Thank you so much for the feed back and re-assurance. ;)

Craig

suffolk112000

03-29-05, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Sodbuster
My filter arrived today (I took the advice to buy the 82mm size and get the $10 adapter).

What does the adapter do for you?
Does it make the lens/filter easier to remove and connect?

Craig
:)

Pilfer

03-29-05, 08:02 AM

djbluemax1, I finally got to try maxing out the colors. I got pretty much the same as you, but for slightly stronger blue (34hr bulb?). Went through the filters and came up with the same filter as you, the Rosco Calcolor #4815 15 Pink (I think you miss typed yours as #4518). I'll try to pop off an order for some tomorrow. Luckily there is a supplier here in Australia.

jasallen

03-29-05, 10:17 AM

suffolk112000,

The adapter he referred to just adapts the ae700's 77mm filter ring to the 82mm filter that he bought.

I am currently hoping to find the "quick on - quick off" solution myself though. I consider the threading to be a bit to tedious and awkward where it's positioned for me to remove and reinstall it at whim for when I need light cannon mode but don't need the color fidelity.

suffolk112000

03-29-05, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by jasallen
suffolk112000,

The adapter he referred to just adapts the ae700's 77mm filter ring to the 82mm filter that he bought.

I am currently hoping to find the "quick on - quick off" solution myself though. I consider the threading to be a bit to tedious and awkward where it's positioned for me to remove and reinstall it at whim for when I need light cannon mode but don't need the color fidelity.

jasallen,

Thanks for the feed back. :)

Craig

kalon74

03-29-05, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Shaddow
I find that with the b+w 81ef filter on and using the Dynamic mode, the contrast seems to be greater than video mode. Does anyone have the tweaks for this mode + filter?

I too would like to know if anyone has tweaked with the 81EF filter in dynamic mode. I like the results so far using Brad Bissell's video mode settings as I feel the picture is probably more accurate than I had before. However I find myself missing the increased brightness and punch that Dynamic mode provides.

djbluemax1

03-29-05, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Pilfer
djbluemax1, I finally got to try maxing out the colors. I got pretty much the same as you, but for slightly stronger blue (34hr bulb?). Went through the filters and came up with the same filter as you, the Rosco Calcolor #4815 15 Pink (I think you miss typed yours as #4518). I'll try to pop off an order for some tomorrow. Luckily there is a supplier here in Australia.

Oops, you're right, the Roscolux # is 4815. I'll edit my post to correct that.

pveman

03-29-05, 10:20 PM

Although B&H is showing out-of-stock on the 77 and 82 mm filters, they still have the 72mm in stock which, according to this thread, should be usable with 77-72 step down ring.

rwestley

03-30-05, 06:48 AM

If anyone really wants to see what these filters can do with Brad Bissell's settings try the first few minutes of the Film "Lost in Translation" or the opening credits of "Spiderman One." I could not believe that there would be such a big difference in CR. Blacks really look black and details stand out. I saw "Lost in Translation at a theatre and I purchased it when it came out on DVD at that time I owned a Sanyo Z2 and the Blacks were gray with little contrast. I got the AE700 and the blacks were better but there was still a lack of contrast. With the filter the difference is amazing.

I am using the B&W filter

Brad215

03-30-05, 08:34 AM

Where can I find the B&W filter?

dapdrums

03-30-05, 08:50 AM

Would it be possible to cut out all the filter posts and put them in another thread, so this thread can return to an AE700 tweak thread. With so much interest in this projector, many people are going to get burned out wading through all these filter posts? Just a suggestion...

Brajesh

03-30-05, 08:51 AM

pveman, I hope you're right. Before they sold out of this too, I just ordered from B&H:

B+W BWKR672 72mm KR-6 81EF Color Conversion Glass Filter, &
Kenko KESDR7772 77mm-72mm Step-Down Ring (Lens to Filter)

Hope this works or I'm out $55 :o

rwestley

03-30-05, 09:39 AM

Brad, These filters are out of stock at most places. Get your self on the list at B&H or Adorama for the 81Ef 77mm filter. Wait two to three weeks.

I do think it would be a good idea to have a seperate thread about filter tweaks.

jasallen

03-30-05, 10:38 AM

Ok, let's try this thread then:

filter thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525534)

BajaFishin

03-31-05, 01:03 AM

Brad Bissell,

You are one famous AE700 owner, I've found people are using your setting on 2 other forums. :)

Thank you for your setting.

Baja

Pilfer

03-31-05, 08:28 PM

Over the last few days I have been trying different filters and calibrating the projector to them. I wasn't happy with them though. Sure I could boost the contrast ratio to over 2000:1 but it was missing that certain something, you didn't look at the screen and really go wow!
So, rather than using these standard sort of color filters intended for camera work etc, I thought I'd branch out and try some different styles of light filter. And wow! Contrast ratios (though measurements were pretty variable) up to 6000:1 and a picture that would get anyones attention.
Oh, well, better get back to it. I've just got an Austin Powers movie on and tweaking it a little more.

Oh, almost forgot, the filter:
http://www.optifanatics.com/Product.aspx?id=80

ScreenRider

04-01-05, 03:19 AM

I don't have the AE700 yet but a dedicated filter website carries the B/W 81ef 77mm filter for around $53.

w**.2filter.com

I've ordered filters and stepping rings from them before with no problems.

bapenguin

04-01-05, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by ScreenRider
I don't have the AE700 yet but a dedicated filter website carries the B/W 81ef 77mm filter for around $53.

w**.2filter.com

I've ordered filters and stepping rings from them before with no problems.

Sweet. Just ordered from them. Hope it goes through ok.

bapenguin

04-01-05, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Pilfer
Over the last few days I have been trying different filters and calibrating the projector to them. I wasn't happy with them though. Sure I could boost the contrast ratio to over 2000:1 but it was missing that certain something, you didn't look at the screen and really go wow!
So, rather than using these standard sort of color filters intended for camera work etc, I thought I'd branch out and try some different styles of light filter. And wow! Contrast ratios (though measurements were pretty variable) up to 6000:1 and a picture that would get anyones attention.
Oh, well, better get back to it. I've just got an Austin Powers movie on and tweaking it a little more.

Oh, almost forgot, the filter:
http://www.optifanatics.com/Product.aspx?id=80

LOL. My eyes hurt just thinking about watching that.

Brad215

04-01-05, 08:34 AM

Brad215

04-01-05, 08:43 AM

Can someone tell me what page Brad Bissell's settings for this filter are on?
Thanks

Brad215

04-01-05, 10:21 AM

Man AVS Forum is killing me........1st I got a Sony 34xbr960......then a panny AE700 w/B&W 81EF filter......Had to upgrade DVD player so a new panny S97 was in order....and don't forget the popcorn machine in the powerbuy (4oz Contempo). All this in the last 6 months. My wife's ready to leave me....Oh I forgot the bass shakers that came yesterday. Does this madness ever end? I hope not......:)

AVWH

04-01-05, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Brad215
Can someone tell me what page Brad Bissell's settings for this filter are on?
Thanks

Here:

My calibration settings, using Smart III, with the B&W KR6 81EF filter:

Mode: Video
Lamp: High

Gamma High: 0
Gamma Mid: 0
Gamma Low: 0
Contrast R: 0
Contrast G: +5
Contrast B: +4
Bright R: -2
Bright G: -2
Bright B: -1

This produces an exact color temperature of 6500K across all IRE levels from 20-100. Below 20 it gets a bit cooler but that is as good as it gets with the calibration. You can reduce this by eye and lower the Blue Bright setting by one or two steps to remove the slight blue black.

After all of this I bet you are wondering what the contrast level is... Well, it is an amazing 2273:1. So it seems that the B&W KR6 81EF is the filter Cine4home.de used to calibrate the AE700.

My settings, using Avia, with the B&W filter, starting from Brad's settings:
Lamp: High
Mode: Video
Contrast: +12
Bright: -15
Color: -11
Tint: 0
Sharpness: +1
Color Temp: On
Dynamic Iris: On

Advanced Menu:
Gammas: 0
Contrast:
R: 0
G: +5
B: +4
Bright:
R: -2
G: -2
B: -3

bapenguin

04-01-05, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Brad215
Just ordered one hope all goes well :)

Looks like they are "back ordered" there as well. They are ordering it right from B&W. They said it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Oh well...might as well wait.

Brad215

04-01-05, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by bapenguin
Looks like they are "back ordered" there as well. They are ordering it right from B&W. They said it could take up to 6-8 weeks. Oh well...might as well wait.

Sure are I just got the backorder email from them. Looks like I'll keep looking. Anyone have any luck on Ebay?

Brad215

04-01-05, 11:46 AM

Thanks for the settings AVWH. Just found out the filter is backordered. Guess I'll just keep these setting around until I find a filter :(

tree109

04-01-05, 04:29 PM

AVW , how do your blacks and shadow detail compare with Brad Bissel's in your opionon?

tree109

04-01-05, 04:31 PM

DJbluemax , How are your blacks with the Roscolux filter compared to the 81EF?

JimP

04-01-05, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Brad215
Man AVS Forum is killing me........1st I got a Sony 34xbr960......then a panny AE700 w/B&W 81EF filter......Had to upgrade DVD player so a new panny S97 was in order....and don't forget the popcorn machine in the powerbuy (4oz Contempo). All this in the last 6 months. My wife's ready to leave me....Oh I forgot the bass shakers that came yesterday. Does this madness ever end? I hope not......:)

No, not really.:)

AVWH

04-01-05, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by tree109
AVWH, how do your blacks and shadow detail compare with Brad Bissel's in your opionon?

I have no way of knowing, not having seen his setup. And I don't have SMARTIII or other light-measuring equipment to compare metrics or contrast ratios.

What I do know:
When I watch ESPN-HD on my AE700, and Digger Phelps wears a black suit, it IS BLACK, not dark gray ;).
When ESPN shows the in-game score in that popup rectangle at the bottom of the screen, it is BLACK.
And lighter scenes are still bright, IMO - so I'm very happy with contrast and blacks. (I don't even have a problem w/ my recessed spots over the seats in the HT being up almost halfway while watching w/ my AE700, whereas w/ my previous LCD projector, the light had to be totally controlled (i.e. lights OFF) to get an acceptable PQ.)

RobZ

04-01-05, 08:40 PM

I've been comparing the HS51 and the AE700 over the past week. Next week I'm throwing an Optoma H76 HD2 DLP into the picture.

PMazz

04-01-05, 11:23 PM

I've been playing with all the posted unfiltered settings and charts to no avail. I just couldn't get a decent looking grayscale when viewing the Avia stepped pattern. That is until I D/L the Moniter Calibration Wizard (http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/) that was linked to in another thread. I ran the wizard and used Normal mode -1 to start. I used the projector advanced color controls to adjust each channel instead of the sliders in the software and then set final B/C with Avia. Now I've finally got Normal mode to look good w/o a filter. For those using a HTPC, it's worth a shot.

Pete

JimP

04-02-05, 01:15 AM

PMazz

Be careful using the Avia stepped pattern as it has a defect which renders grayscale calibration wrong. Using component, disconnect the blue or green cable (can't remember which) in order to clearly get a picture that doesn't have any color in it.

Mr.Green72

04-02-05, 01:48 AM

I've read thru hundreds of post and god my head hurts.

Can you AE700 owners give me an honest opinion? I'll use my projector mainly for Xbox gaming. Should I get the AE700 or spend an extra $2000 CDN to get the Toshiba MT700 DLP?

PMazz

04-02-05, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by JimP
PMazz

Be careful using the Avia stepped pattern as it has a defect which renders grayscale calibration wrong. Using component, disconnect the blue or green cable (can't remember which) in order to clearly get a picture that doesn't have any color in it.

Oh No! And just when I thought I was making progress.....:)

I'm using a VGA cable to feed the proj. What is going on with the Avia pattern? Cross stepped gray scales seemed the ideal pattern. Any others?

Either way, I used the Moniter Cal Wiz to set the proj, and then finally had something that looked right in Normal mode with a movie. I'll play around with it some more as I want to try other temps.

Pete

bapenguin

04-02-05, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Green72
I've read thru hundreds of post and god my head hurts.

Can you AE700 owners give me an honest opinion? I'll use my projector mainly for Xbox gaming. Should I get the AE700 or spend an extra $2000 CDN to get the Toshiba MT700 DLP?

I probably use my AE700 more for XBox than anything else. I think it does a FANTASTIC job and really looks good across the board. You won't be dissapointed.

Brad215

04-02-05, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Green72
I've read thru hundreds of post and god my head hurts.

Can you AE700 owners give me an honest opinion? I'll use my projector mainly for Xbox gaming. Should I get the AE700 or spend an extra $2000 CDN to get the Toshiba MT700 DLP?

My two boys use the AE700 with the xbox and everyone can't stop commenting on how great it looks. Now I can't seams to get all these teenagers out of my basement ...lol

JimP

04-02-05, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by PMazz
Oh No! And just when I thought I was making progress.....:)

I'm using a VGA cable to feed the proj. What is going on with the Avia pattern? Cross stepped gray scales seemed the ideal pattern. Any others?

Either way, I used the Moniter Cal Wiz to set the proj, and then finally had something that looked right in Normal mode with a movie. I'll play around with it some more as I want to try other temps.

Pete

Use the patttern on DVE, Digital video essentials. If my memory serves me right, on the Avia pattern, the lower IREs are too warm. Have you noticed that your picture on actual material looks cyan or greenish?? I can't tell you the number of hours I wasted on calibration and never really though the picture looked quite right. Then in one of the forums, it was brought up about the grayscale cross step pattern being off, then it all made sense. Also, the brightness pattern on Avia is intended for CRTs with floating black levels. If you use Avia on a digital display (this includes the AE700) you should adjust brightness back up until the second bar just reappears.

While I'm giving you my opinion, I'll throw this out too. You may find that setting the "Color Temp" setting on the AE700 one notch bluer than true 6500K provides a more pleasing result. I'm sure that's more of a matter of taste than anything else, but you might want to give it a try.

I wound up using "Normal" mode with "0" color temp (and no filters)

Happy Tweaking

Mr.Green72

04-02-05, 12:07 PM

Thanks bapenguin (you're from EvilAvatar right?) and Brad. I'm probably gonna go with the Panny and put the extra cash on a new 5.1 setup.

The black levels aren't an issue in dark games like Splinter Cell or Doom? What kind of screen do you use? Did you install a filter and if yes, wich one?

Thanks again.

Edit: Never mind the filter thing. I saw you have one ordered. :)

Aussie Bob

04-02-05, 04:42 PM

No-one seems to be posting their DVD player settings. As these are the basis of any upstream calibration, wouldn't their absence have something to do with some of the anomalous results members are reporting?

Just askin'...

dan marquardt

04-02-05, 05:03 PM

what is the consensus to modify brad's settings for HDMI? I thought they were we're noted to be a little too green with HDMI since he only calibrated with component.

PMazz

04-02-05, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by JimP
Use the patttern on DVE, Digital video essentials. If my memory serves me right, on the Avia pattern, the lower IREs are too warm. Have you noticed that your picture on actual material looks cyan or greenish?? I can't tell you the number of hours I wasted on calibration and never really though the picture looked quite right. Then in one of the forums, it was brought up about the grayscale cross step pattern being off, then it all made sense. Also, the brightness pattern on Avia is intended for CRTs with floating black levels. If you use Avia on a digital display (this includes the AE700) you should adjust brightness back up until the second bar just reappears.

While I'm giving you my opinion, I'll through this out too. You may find that setting the "Color Temp" setting on the AE700 one notch bluer than true 6500K provides a more pleasing result. I'm sure that's more of a matter of taste than anything else, but you might want to give it a try.

I wound up using "Normal" mode with "0" color temp (and no filters)

Happy Tweaking

Yes, as a matter of fact I have noticed a too green tint to the picture. That was why I was never satisfied too. The Mon Cal Wiz took care of that tho. And I too like a little blue push to my picture! :) I'll try color temp 0 next. Thanks!

Pete

tvted

04-02-05, 06:17 PM

tvted

04-02-05, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
No-one seems to be posting their DVD player settings. As these are the basis of any upstream calibration, wouldn't their absence have something to do with some of the anomalous results members are reporting?

Just askin'...

Best to leave your sources settings at factory and calibrate the display.
See my preceding message for more informed links.

ted

PMazz

04-03-05, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by tvted
For HTPC there are also the issues of VIDEO levels vs. PC levels (you want VIDEO 16 - 235) as well as VRM vs Overlay.
Want more?
:D

See here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494606) and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=523614)

ted

I still use TTek and overlay. VRM9 was way too soft an image for my taste. Of course I haven't tried it since the update....

One of those links is where I found the Mon Cal Wiz software. The rest of the debate on WTW/BTB I'll leave to the more informed. Splitting hairs and pissing contests are not my thing baby (in my best Austin Powers voice). :D

Pete

tvted

04-03-05, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by PMazz
I still use TTek and overlay. VRM9 was way too soft an image for my taste. Of course I haven't tried it since the update....

One of those links is where I found the Mon Cal Wiz software. The rest of the debate on WTW/BTB I'll leave to the more informed. Splitting hairs and pissing contests are not my thing baby (in my best Austin Powers voice). :D

Pete
"VRM9 was way too soft an image for my taste"
My bet is that your preference is also for a digital / video image rather than a "film-like" one.

I've worked with Pro Video (Broadcast) for about 25 yrs where we encounter all sorts of calibration discrepancies daily.

Its not about "Splitting hairs and pissing contests" its about getting the best from your display and sources when taking into consideration how data is encoded. So to each his own. In your case I can tell you already know everything you wish to know.

Carry on.

ted

PMazz

04-03-05, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by tvted
"VRM9 was way too soft an image for my taste"
My bet is that your preference is also for a digital / video image rather than a "film-like" one.

I've worked with Pro Video (Broadcast) for about 25 yrs where we encounter all sorts of calibration discrepancies daily.

Its not about "Splitting hairs and pissing contests" its about getting the best from your display and sources when taking into consideration how data is encoded. So to each his own. In your case I can tell you already know everything you wish to know.

Carry on.

ted

It seems once again my feeble attempt at humor has been misunderstood. The "Splitting hairs and pissing contests" remark was meant in jest about how the threads on such debates seem to go, not the fact that there is differences in video systems.

As for VRM9 vs overlay, I will try it again as the software matures. My first attempt produced nothing like a film-like image, I assure you. But I haven't given up.

I'm sorry my post came off so negatively. "In your case I can tell you already know everything you wish to know." couldn't be further from the truth.

Pete

tvted

04-03-05, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by PMazz
It seems once again my feeble attempt at humor has been misunderstood. The "Splitting hairs and pissing contests" remark was meant in jest about how the threads on such debates seem to go, not the fact that there is differences in video systems.

As for VRM9 vs overlay, I will try it again as the software matures. My first attempt produced nothing like a film-like image, I assure you. But I haven't given up.

I'm sorry my post came off so negatively. "In your case I can tell you already know everything you wish to know." couldn't be further from the truth.

Pete

My sincere apologies PMazz for misunderstanding your post. I will try to not be so quick with the keyboard. :o

I did think you were slighting those links which contain some of the best info by some of the most learned members of AVS and reflects a lot of endeavor by those posters, hence my hasty reaction. Take my apology for the misunderstanding.

Text can lead to confusion as those all important inflections and gestures are missing - don't forget the smilies - they do help somewhat.:)

BTW. I *do* agree - VRM9 is definitely not for everyone, I just believe those decisions are better made from knowledge.

ted

PMazz

04-03-05, 07:15 PM

My only intention, besides my poor stab at humor :), was to pass along something that got me closer to achieving satisfactory results in picture quality. I'm still debating getting the Smart III package as there seems to be enough variance between units to negate the use of others calibrated settings. Unless I'm incorrectly interpolating the various posted graphs of the different picture modes, it seems that "universal" settings will miss the mark on individual machines.

I agree. All decisions are better made thru knowledge, IMO, which is why I frequent sites like this. The 700 is my first FP so I'm still at the beginning of the learning curve. Overall I'm thoroughly impressed with it, but as a dedicated enthusiast, good is just never good enough :).

Pete

mrjag

04-03-05, 07:50 PM

With VGA input, the color and tint options are not available. Is there a setting (or group of settings) that can replicate the color and tint adjustments?

tvted

04-03-05, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by mrjag
With VGA input, the color and tint options are not available. Is there a setting (or group of settings) that can replicate the color and tint adjustments?

There should be settings from within your players software.

However, if your PC is outputting correct RGB levels there should be no need for Colour and Tint controls in your display as a correctly calibrated grey scale would display the colours as they were intended. For example "Tint" is a reflection of the way that Analogue signals are coded and derived from a source. It is essentially a phase (timing) relationship between luminance and chrominance. If Colour and tint exists on a VGA input they are likely to be analog conversions of the digital input which are then reconverted to digital.

Where does the problem lie?

ted

Aussie Bob

04-03-05, 09:47 PM

Turned my AE700 off Saturday night, turned it on again Sunday night and phffffft!... the image is a about 30% normal brightness and seems to be drifting away over time.

No anomalous menu settings. Tried a power-off (at the wall socket). No grunge in the lens. No impediments to light (i.e. the lens cap is off). Just a really, really, dim picture.... sharp, accurate color, but dim.

Service Mode status check says "Everything OK" (lamp, iris, temperature etc.). But nothing will bring my ANSI-lumens back. Tried composite, VGA, YUV... no help. All dim.

Lamp has 700 hours on it over 5 months (to the day).

This just seems like a slow fading away...

It's either the shutter's cactused, the lamp has blown, or perhaps the power supply is going bye-byes.

Have taken it to Panasonic Service in Sydney Australia and they looked at me as if they'd never seen one before (which is probably the case).

Has anyone seen this fault before? I thought I'd read something up-thread about intermittent dimming, but not permanent dimming.

tvted

04-03-05, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Turned my AE700 off Saturday night, turned it on again Sunday night and phffffft!... the image is a about 30% normal brightness and seems to be drifting away over time.

No anomalous menu settings. Tried a power-off (at the wall socket). No grunge in the lens. No impediments to light (i.e. the lens cap is off). Just a really, really, dim picture.... sharp, accurate color, but dim.

Service Mode status check says "Everything OK" (lamp, iris, temperature etc.). But nothing will bring my ANSI-lumens back. Tried composite, VGA, YUV... no help. All dim.

Lamp has 700 hours on it over 5 months (to the day).

This just seems like a slow fading away...

It's either the shutter's cactused, the lamp has blown, or perhaps the power supply is going bye-byes.

Have taken it to Panasonic Service in Sydney Australia and they looked at me as if they'd never seen one before (which is probably the case).

Has anyone seen this fault before? I thought I'd read something up-thread about intermittent dimming, but not permanent dimming.

Ouch..
That's gotta hurt - my sympathies.

Does the Iris go through its startup calibration or has the "kerchunk" disappeared and is safe to ask that you've turned it off?

It does sound like a bulb failing though - can't see why a bulb has to go all at once.

ted

Aussie Bob

04-04-05, 02:11 AM

There is indeed a healthy ker-chunk upon power-up. I rely on this, actually, because I have the projector mounted up high and I can't see the LEDs turning green.

I took it to Panasonic (Sydney Australia) today and they inform me that despite the 2-year/5000-hour gee-whiz projector warranty, and the much-bragged-about "3000 hour" lamp life (complete with auto shut-down embedded in the s/w at 3000 hours and all the fanfare that goes with it), the actual warranty on the lamp is ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA-NADA, THE-BIG-0... nothing. No warranty.

I pointed out to them that a projector 5 months old, with a lamp failing at less that one quarter of its highly touted life is a confidence trick if it's not warrantable. I asked whether two months and two-hundred hours would class as "under warranty" (official or otherwise).

Nope.

What about one month and 50 hours?

Nuh-uh.

How about 20 hours?

Try again, sir. AND THIS TIME READ THE FINE PRINT!!!

And the fine print does indeed claim that the lamp is a "consumable" and that if your lamp fails early or late, you'll be buying a new one when it fails no matter what hours it has on its cute little, ticking time bomb (oh! the suspense!) software clock in the secret "SERVICE" menu that turns the projector off at 3000 hours. In other words: officially speaking, the "3000 hour" lamp life isn't worth the eco-friendly, recycled, glossy-coated toilet paper Panasonic uses for brochures these days.

And guess what? Mine turned itself off after only 700 hours.

"We don't need no stinkin' lamp clocks..."

The lamp (non) warranty is not on their "exciting new inter-active web site", it's not in the brochures, it's not on the machine itself. The very comprehensive chapter on lamp-life in the manual tells you everything except that the lamp may as well be a beer coaster for all the chance you've got of wangling a warranty repair if it fails... anytime.

So, just where is the lamp warranty info (I hear you ask)? It's on that little loose-leaf, el cheapo piece of paper you get in the carton when you first take delivery of the unit, and which by law you don't have to fill out, so you always chuck away with all the plastic wrapping.

So, trumpeted out all over the place is how grrrrreat the lamp life is, but only in one place is it mentioned that even if the lamp fails after just a few hours, you're toast, man, like your lamp. Pay up another AUS$550, plus $110 for installation. The $110 is for "authorized service personnel only", which you have to use to install the new lamp or else it doesn't have a warranty... but...wait a minute! There's no warran..... Ah, I see! CATCH-22...

I pointed out that at this rate I'd have bought a new projector in under two years, just in replacement lamps. The service guy (admittedly not the boss) said, "You takes your chances... it's highly unlikely a lamp would go so soon".

"Are you prepared to guarantee that?"

"Well, no, not actually... guarantee it."

So, when you buy an AE700, you get a free ticket to Vegas as well. It's there in the box marked, "WARRANTY".

"Come to our Home Theater Casino. No bets under $550."

And pray you don't get a dud lamp.

Call me old-fashioned, but I think that stinks.

Pilfer

04-04-05, 02:38 AM

Aussie Bob I feel sorry that your bulb has gone so soon though I am not surprised that they do not warantee them. Bulbs can be very delicate things and something as simple as opening a window near them and having cold air hit them can cause them to fail.
I remember when I was about 16 I was running the lights and sound for one of our school plays. There were a few of us nerdy types that did it each year as the teaching staff didn't have a clue. Well, it got quite hot in the hall this night, someone had turned the heating way up. One of the teachers wanted to open all the windows along the top of the hall to let the heat out. We told them not to do the windows near the spot lights on the roof, just open the back windows and some doors or it'd blow the bulbs in the spotlights. They didn't believe us and proceeded to open the lot. Well... the proceeds of the night about half covered the $3000 worth of bulbs that went pop over about the next 5 minutes before the teacher decided maybe they should be closed again...

Aussie Bob

04-04-05, 03:01 AM

Thanks for the sympathy Pilfer. Actually it made me feel better just to get that rant off my chest.

But tell me, were the bulbs in the school hall touted all over the place as "3000 hour" bulbs? Did the manufacturers boast about the high-tech bulb management software they used to prevent early failure? Were the bulbs enclosed in a filtered, temperature controlled and monitored environment?

See what I mean?

It's false advertising beyond normal product hype. A $550 take-it-or-leave it potentially very expensive, so-called product should be clearly advertised as such, not snuck away on one flimsy piece of paper among the other detritus we get nowadays in our over-packed consumer goods. The little gamble they expect you to take isn't on the web site. Or in the brochure. Or the User Manual. But only on that one tiny piece of paper. The rest is "Happy Days Are Here Again".

The product specifications for that bulb are far too vague, talking about "some" bulbs, in "some" circumstances, under "some" operating conditions. This is a failure of the product to operate after only 25% of it's advertised lifetime. I could understand if they said 1500-3000 hours, waffly as that may seem. But to claim that even failure after 20 hours renders a product replacable at the customer's cinsiderable expense... that's outrageous. What do they think I did? Pour a glass of ice water on it to keep it cool?

It may not even be the buld that's failed (I hope it's not) but the casual way in which failure was considered as "bad luck to you, good luck to us" was appalling. A definite - forgive the expression - turn-off. And you only read about it in the fine print.

For the record, the serviceman said something about "checking" to see whether I'd de-powered the projector "cold" i.e. at the mains, rather than the remote. I guess there's some kind of indication in the status monitor of how many times that's happened. One of those mysterious hexadecimal numbers in the "lamp" section I suppose (mine are still set at all ZERO, so they can't pin "improper de-powering" on me).

It still ain't right.

rwestley

04-04-05, 07:20 AM

Aussie Bob, as it has been said before Welcome to Las Vegas or in Aussie Land the nearest casino. It is sad that you have been one of the unlucky ones. Most manufactures do give a 90 day warranty on the bulbs. I know this will not make you feel any better but I have read that many owners of other projectors have had similar problems. The life of a bulb can depend on so many factors. I do hope that you get yours replaced soon and that you have more luck with the new one. Keep us informed and please continue with your great posts. Sorry again.

JimP

04-04-05, 08:32 AM

Aussie Bob

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I was just checking projector people and a replacement bulb is 369.00 US.
Don't know about shipping cost and the conversion rate, but this might be a viable alternative.

bapenguin

04-04-05, 09:10 AM

Hmm...I could have sworn I read on some piece of material I had from Panasonic that the bulb is warranted to 500 hours. If it fails before that they will replace it....I could be wrong....of course....I'm at 505 now....

Sorry to hear the misfortune Bob.

mrjag

04-04-05, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by tvted
There should be settings from within your players software.

However, if your PC is outputting correct RGB levels there should be no need for Colour and Tint controls in your display as a correctly calibrated grey scale would display the colours as they were intended. For example "Tint" is a reflection of the way that Analogue signals are coded and derived from a source. It is essentially a phase (timing) relationship between luminance and chrominance. If Colour and tint exists on a VGA input they are likely to be analog conversions of the digital input which are then reconverted to digital.

Where does the problem lie?

ted
I have used some of the filter settings in this thread with component input and they turn out perfect -- blacks are black, whites are white, and skins have just the right amount of red to make them fleshy with none of the sickly green tones to them.

However, when I switch to my VGA connection and replicate the same settings, there is a HUGE red push. The only difference is that I didn't have access to make the color and tint adjustments like I did with the component input. I tried playing around in the advanced menu but I couldn't figure out what combination of RGB contrast/brightness will balance it back out.

I'm using Rosco #4815 in Normal mode.

tvted

04-04-05, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by mrjag
I have used some of the filter settings in this thread with component input and they turn out perfect -- blacks are black, whites are white, and skins have just the right amount of red to make them fleshy with none of the sickly green tones to them.

However, when I switch to my VGA connection and replicate the same settings, there is a HUGE red push. The only difference is that I didn't have access to make the color and tint adjustments like I did with the component input. I tried playing around in the advanced menu but I couldn't figure out what combination of RGB contrast/brightness will balance it back out.

I'm using Rosco #4815 in Normal mode.

Are you using Avia or DVE or a recommended greyscale for calibrating your desktop? There *are* differences in PC vs Video calibration.
If you are calibrating for DVD playback what player are you using and are you using Overlay or VRM9? I'm afraid these questions *are* involved in getting the best calibration for your sources.

I'm not a great believer in doing calibrations of greyscale by eye - there is too much subjectivity involved - even after the display has been correctly calibrated by measurement. There are enough variables from unit to unit that would suggest that settings for one unit might not necessarily work on another.

If you've the time these issues are covered in depth, see here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=523614) for PC/HTPC calibration
and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494606) for VIDEO sources.

Both these threads contain valuable info and links to patterns that are useful for calibrating displays to PC and Video sources. They are compiled by some of the more experienced members in the AVS community and I highly recommend them to anyone wishing to get the best from their display.

ted

mrjag

04-04-05, 04:28 PM

Thanks, I'll check out that thread when I get some time. It's strange though that the settings others have posted work perfectly when I use a component input, but are horribly off when I use VGA.

coolooc

04-04-05, 04:33 PM

Hi
I want to reduce the vb in my ae700 but i dont know exactly what to do in
the service menu, i saw the color changing, do i have to choose something?
and how to do that?
Thank you very much.

JimP

04-04-05, 04:41 PM

coolooc

I think that's covered in the first or second page of this thread.

tvted

04-04-05, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by mrjag
Thanks, I'll check out that thread when I get some time. It's strange though that the settings others have posted work perfectly when I use a component input, but are horribly off when I use VGA.

Not really, they work in different colour space and have different coding for black.

ted

Scott_R_K

04-04-05, 06:36 PM

From the Panasonic Web site...

"Oops. We couldn't find the warranty for model number PT-AE700U-EC.
Would you like to view the support page for PT-AE700U-EC or begin a new search?"

Nice ! So I looked elswhere ...in the FAQ for Projectors...

"2. How long will the lamp in my LCD projection TV last? Is it user-replaceable?
The lamp life varies depending on individual usage. The term of the Limited Warranty for the Lamp is one year for defects in materials and workmanship, subject to the limits and exclusions and all other terms and conditions of the Limited Warranty. See the Limited Warranty for details. You can easily replace the lamp yourself when the time comes. Simply visit the Panasonic parts and accessories site to order a replacement lamp or call 1-888-VIEW-PTV.

Couldn't find the "Limited Warranty" anywhere . You have to call Panasonic I guess . Also couldn't find , in ten words or less , what is or is not covered under extended Warranty agreements .

Something smells a little fishy here ...:mad:

Sorry to hear about your troubles Aussiebob !

Scott......................

mrjag

04-04-05, 07:00 PM

I understand the 16-235 color range concept, but I believe it has little to do with the degree of miscalibration i'm seeing with VGA for this reason:

With no filter, the VGA and component inputs look nearly identical as far as colors are concerned. With the filter applied, they both take on a pink or orange tinting depending on the filter used -- however they still both look similar.

Now when I apply the suggested settings for a particular filter to the component input, the pink or orange goes away like it should. These same settings applied to the VGA input, minus the adjustments for color and tint, result in a picture with to much red. After much fidling, I wasn't able to balance out the picture and reverted back to using no filter.

Just to confirm that my htpc wasn't the problem, I tested the VGA output with a regular CRT monitor. Just as I suspected, the picture was fine.

tvted

04-04-05, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by mrjag
I understand the 16-235 color range concept, but I believe it has little to do with the degree of miscalibration i'm seeing with VGA for this reason:

With no filter, the VGA and component inputs look nearly identical as far as colors are concerned. With the filter applied, they both take on a pink or orange tinting depending on the filter used -- however they still both look similar.

Now when I apply the suggested settings for a particular filter to the component input, the pink or orange goes away like it should. These same settings applied to the VGA input, minus the adjustments for color and tint, result in a picture with to much red. After much fidling, I wasn't able to balance out the picture and reverted back to using no filter.

Just to confirm that my htpc wasn't the problem, I tested the VGA output with a regular CRT monitor. Just as I suspected, the picture was fine.

But you are dealing with colour info that is encoded in different ways.

Essentially they are different colour spaces and utilize different colour matrixes and different sets of equations to arrive at the final colour.
RGB or sRGB is the weighted sum of the three primaries and do not rely on Colour difference and luminance signals like YPbPr, thus it only makes sense that what works for one would not work for the other.

ted

Aussie Bob

04-04-05, 11:34 PM

I appreciate all the sympathy re. the bulbs. Thanks guys and/or gals.

The call centre guy who PDF'd me the warranty said that the bulb was a "consumable" and therefore not warranted. This is what the warranty says:

WARRANTY, LCD PROJECTOR

[snip]

4. This warranty does not cover the following items, unless the fault or defect being complained of existed at the time of purchase.

(a) Lamps
(b) Consumables, including but not limited to dust filters, batteries etc."

So it seems that under the Australian warranty, at least, "lamps" are specifically distinguished from "consumables". In other words, they are not "consumables". This agrees with common sense, in that a consumable has a life which can be determined relatively accurately in advance by calculating intended usage, environmental conditions etc.... like ink-jet inks, or cash register receipt rolls. Lamps, on the other hand, have very vague properties, according to Panasonic. They can last 3000 hours or they can just go "phhhhhttt!".

My problem with Panasonic's approach is that a replacement lamp costs a significant percentage of the original cost of the projector. It's not a paper roll, or a pot of ink. It's a major piece of kit, when compared to the overall cost of the projector. Consumables typically do not cost this much compared to the price of the device as a whole.

In my opinion, the "consumable" spiel is just a brush-off. By their own document and by the laws of common sense, lamps are definitely NOT a "consumable", in the regular sense of the word.

I put it to Panasonic that if they were not prepared to guarantee the next lamp would last more than 750 hours (or any definite number of hours, actually), then at the rate of replacement already established (one per 5 months) and with the cost of the lamp being 22% of the price I paid for the projector, then at the end of the 24 month warranty period I would have paid 105% of the projector cost, just in replacement lamps. Alternatively, taking the lamp hours into account, I would have paid for three replacements by the time the "advertised" 3000 hours had come up.

Some consumable! "Consumed" by the Fires Of Hell maybe, but not your regular, predictable, "Oh gee, I have to get more ink soon 'cause I've printed 50 full color photographs" type consumable. Or the "Damn! We've nearly run out of toilet paper" type consumable.

Panasonic assure me that my next lamp (if it is the lamp that's broken on the present occasion) will most assuredly last for 3,000 hours; that I've just got a dud this time (my bad luck). But they are not prepared to warrant that this will be the case. It's all off the record. For that matter, what if it's a bad power supply circuit in my projector that's just going to cause childhood mortality in the next and all future lamps? Panasonic's answer: tough-titties Aussie Bob. It's all very waffly, for mine.

Now, if their lamps are so good and reliable, and if they are prepared to tout their lamps as "3000 hour" devices, and if they are prepared to make a song and dance about how clever their lamp management software is, and about how their service status monitor uses 3000 hours as the point at which the projector shuts itself down for their customer's protection, then - if there's so little chance of failure - why don't they simply replace the lamp and THEY take the gamble, not the customer who has trusted their advertising spin? This would be after proper investigationof the cause of the failure, of course, but I think the onus should be on Panasonic to incur the risk, not me, The Mug, who just bought their projector, taking their word on quality and reliability.

It's interesting that other members here are having trouble tracking down the warranty from the "brilliant interactive web site" of Panasonic's. It's also interesting that several service organisations I have spoken to have not reported any lamp failures so soon in the product's life. It really does seem like I may have gotten a dud, which only reinforces my point before: if this is a true anomaly, then Panasonic should stand by their product and replace it for free.

Yet Panasonic are trying to have an each-way bet, win and place on this one.

Heads we win.

Tails you lose.

BajaFishin

04-05-05, 03:06 AM

Check out my gallery......

I have a cheap camera, I don't have a tripod, and I don't how to take a picture... So this is the best I can do......

At least you get the idea...

Baja

audiomaniac

04-05-05, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
...SNIP....

So it seems that under the Australian warranty, at least, "lamps" are specifically distinguished from "consumables". In other words, they are not "consumables". This agrees with common sense, in that a consumable has a life which can be determined relatively accurately in advance by calculating intended usage, environmental conditions etc.... like ink-jet inks, or cash register receipt rolls. Lamps, on the other hand, have very vague properties, according to Panasonic. They can last 3000 hours or they can just go "phhhhhttt!".

My problem with Panasonic's approach is that a replacement lamp costs a significant percentage of the original cost of the projector. It's not a paper roll, or a pot of ink. It's a major piece of kit, when compared to the overall cost of the projector. Consumables typically do not cost this much compared to the price of the device as a whole.

In my opinion, the "consumable" spiel is just a brush-off. By their own document and by the laws of common sense, lamps are definitely NOT a "consumable", in the regular sense of the word.

...SNIP....

Now, if their lamps are so good and reliable, and if they are prepared to tout their lamps as "3000 hour" devices, and if they are prepared to make a song and dance about how clever their lamp management software is, and about how their service status monitor uses 3000 hours as the point at which the projector shuts itself down for their customer's protection, then - if there's so little chance of failure - why don't they simply replace the lamp and THEY take the gamble, not the customer who has trusted their advertising spin? This would be after proper investigationof the cause of the failure, of course, but I think the onus should be on Panasonic to incur the risk, not me, The Mug, who just bought their projector, taking their word on quality and reliability.

...SNIP....

Heads we win.

Tails you lose. [/B]

Bob,

I am crossing my fingers(at least metaphorically) and hoping for the best for mine.

The real problem (at least from the point of view of the manufacturer) is that there are so many things you can do, and which they have absolutely NO control, which will break it in NO time.

When we first started using projectors in my office 500USD lamps would pop after less than 200 or 300 hours. It turned out that the users were not letting them cool down properly. I am pretty sure that themperature related issues account for a very large number of premature failures.

It just sucks but I for one can't see how they can afford warrantying the lamps when they can't control the factors that mostly makes them break.

In general I can understand why they can't give a warranty. What I have a hard time understanding is why the lamps we use in for instance the AE700, which are really quite common today, have to be so expensive.

I feel with you and keep on hoping that you won't have to feel with me too soon.

JimP

04-05-05, 07:52 AM

Aussie Bob

If you go forward with the bulb replacement, be sure to ask them for the old one. Maybe we can figure out a less expensive replacement.

Aussie Bob

04-05-05, 04:48 PM

Yes Jim, I was wondering how much hype there is about getting an exact replacement. I'll remember to get the old one. Wouldn't it be interesting if they tried the Epson Ink trick and had somehow or other chipped their bulbs (as Epson chip their ink pots) so you HAD to use the branded one or no-go?

Robert, from what the technician said darkly, I suspect they have an indicator or log of how often the projector is turned off and on, both properly (with the controlled power down) and improperly (by pulling the mains plug). It wouldn't be a difficult thing to do at all, given the length of the power down cycle. A simple counter would do the trick.

If so, that means Panasonic KNOW whether the projector has been de-powered inappropriately. I have no beef with them refusing to replace a bulb if the unit has been mistreated. None at all. But if they can ascertain from reading the internal power-down log that the bulb has just been a "dud" and not mistreated, then the guarantee should be longer than 750 hours, more like 2000 at least. The elaborate precautions the software and hardware go to to protect and monitor bulb performance are a different case to one mentioned upthread where naked bulbs burst in a theatre lighting situation when exposed to a cold draught. By comparison, AE700 bulbs live in a very warm and friendly cocoon, protected against the excesses of a nasty world out there.

It's a selling point, the "3000 hour bulb". It's been talked about often in this forum and many others. It should be backed up - in the absence of mistreatment - or else it's false advertising. They either drop the advertising, or back it up.

We have consumer laws here in Australia right on this point, and I'm sure other countries have very similar legislation. If you want to tout yourself as an "expert", or your product as something "special" and then try to weasel out of it with fine print, there can be consequences.

I spoke to the local Consumer Affairs bureau (state government) and they have a lot of complaints along these lines, some of them specifically on bulbs, and generally on similarly expensive so-called (by the manufacturers) "consumables" (actually a better word is "disposable")

The basic scam is to make disposable parts of a complex device quite cheap to manufacture, but artificially expensive to replace. The usual way of doing this is to "chip" the disposable part i.e. put a smart-card type microcontroller in it that must be present and functioning or else the whole device will not work. This means you can only buy the "official", branded replacement part, usually at exhorbitant prices. The usual excuse given is that the projector (or printer, or photocopier) is too complex for generic replacements. These scams are not popular with consumer affairs bureaus, and on many occasions the manufacturer has been forced to reduce the price of the replacement part.

For the life of me, I can't see how in the hell a bulb could be worth over $500 Australian dollars (US$350 and up) and still be so breakable, and unwarranted by the manufacturer. It's a bulb, not a gold nugget, or a Ming Dynasty vase.

The usual rule of thumb with mass market manufacturing is to multiply the manufacturing price by about 8-10 times to calculate the sale price. However, one investigation (into inks) in Australia found the sale price of a replacement cartridge was 70 times the manufacturing cost. Consumers were paying $80 for something that cost $1.10 to make. As the ink cartridge was chipped, you had to use this cartridge. After consumer affairs intervention the prices magically dropped to $40, still high but better than before. The design of the cartridge offered no inherent advantage to the consumer in quality (although the manufacturer argued that it did) compared to generic refill inks. The only difference was that you couldn't refill the cartridge, due to a time-out clock function in the chip, without going to a lot of trouble. The printer manufacturer argued that their reputation was at stake if generics were used. The counter argument to this was that consumers should be able to make that choice, if the manufacturer's claim was in fact true.

Photocopier refills were another case in point at one time in history. Warranty service for motor vehicles was another. The auto manufacturers were forced to make proprietary computer engine analysers available to non-dealer mechanics, because the dealers were charging a premium when they had sole rights to use the manufacturer-supplied kit.

JimP

04-05-05, 05:26 PM

Aussie Bob,

I somehow think that Panasonic may have painted themself into a corner. If the technology exist in the AE700 to report that there were no abnormal shutdowns, then what leg do they have to deny a replacement. If it wasn't recorded they could speculate that the customer did something wrong.

Before too long, I would think that quite a few owners will be passing the 700hr mark. We should see if you just got a bad one or if this is indicative of what to expect from these bulbs. As you said, the 3,000 hr life advertised for the AE700 is a major selling point.

Sodbuster

04-05-05, 05:45 PM

The discussion of bulb warranty has been aimed at Oz, but inspired by the discussion, I looked up the U.S. promise: 500 hr or 90 day whichever comes first.

Not much, but something...has this been mentioned in this thread?

Aussie Bob

04-05-05, 08:29 PM

"If [improper shutdown] wasn't recorded [Panasonic] could speculate that the customer did something wrong." - JimP

Agreed Jim, except that the usage log figures are probably in the "secret" SETUP menu, and if they are, they are certainly not labelled as such. As long as the information is supposedly secret, Panasonic can have the best of both worlds. Any volunteers to see if they change after improper shutdown? My guess is that the mysterious "00" numbers under lamp life that seem to do nothing could be the culprits. Just a guess.

Detection of improper shutdowns isn't rare, especially in devices that take a while to actually shut down. Take any version of Windows. I'm not a Windows expert, but improper shutdown is detected, that much I know. The AE700 takes an eternity to cool down its lamp. I'm positive that somewhere in its non-volatile memory is a flag that is set only only when the projector itself finally turns out the lights at the end of cool-down.

It's quite possible for improper shutdown to occur free of moral taint on behalf of the user. Blackouts are an obvious case in point. The action of children, or even inexperienced users is another (I caught my wife once with her finger poised over the mains power switch... tut, tut). So there would probably be some allowance made by any reasonable service organisation.

As far as my case is concerned, I have always followed recommended procedure for shutdown. Not even any accidental or "acts of God" shutdowns on my watch. My hex numbers remain resolutely at "00" (if improper shutdown is indeed what they represent). I even disconnect it from the wall socket during thunderstorms.

"Saint Bob Of Australia," that's me. My AE700 eats better than I do. Fresh vegetables and TLC - all the way.

The 500-hour North American warranty sounds not bad, but it is still a long way from the razzamatazz of "3000 hours" and all that "lamp management" hype.

Another thought.... the casing in which the lamp comes packaged seems fairly bulky. What else is in there besides the lamp? Is it also so delicate that the warranty needs to be zero?

This just seems to me like Panasonic's version of Epson's uber-expensive, chipped inkjet cartridges.

canthony15

04-05-05, 08:48 PM

It's getting pretty non-tweaky with the bulb stuff so here is my contribution to the noise. I have an AE700 and I bought a spare bulb because I had the cash at the time and I knew it would go elsewhere if I didn't get a spare when I bought the PJ. Before that I had an Infocus lp620 with a dead bulb. The bulb was clearly marked with an OSRAM part number VIP-R273/45. On the web a replacement (to be fair, it includes the metal bracket) was 350 to 500 bucks. After very heavy googling I found this link at sylvania who bought out osram:

http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2c/b2c/z_login.do;jsessionid=ID4001DB0.4730149230131254End;sapj2ee_ *=4001

Note the product number 69327 and that there are 50 bulbs in a case.

Now go here:
http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?prod=SL69327&link_p=Sylvania-light-bulb-69327

Note that a case (part number SL69327) is less than 500 bucks. So lets see, 50 bulbs for 500 and they sell one on a metal bracket for nearly that much. Yep, I'd say there's a little money being made on the bulbs.

Unfortunately, the AE700 bulb assembly is much more hi-tech looking. It doesn't look like it would be possible to find the actual bulb used in them or replace it readily. In general, you cannot slap in some generic bulb as the power supplies for these things are custom designed to match up with the precise operating characteristics of the bulb.

Sigh. Perhaps we need to do some bulb tweak work?

EDIT: First link didn't paste right. Lets try this one:
http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2c/b2c/z_login.do;jsessionid=ID4001DB0.4730149230131254End;sapj2ee_ *=4001

EDIT2:

Hmmm. Link doesn't work today. Well, you'll have to trust me then :).